October 2003 posts
They're
gonna keep making Gunn seem evil, huh? (Just Rewards Spoilers)
-- Sgamer82,
15:50:07 10/11/03 Sat
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I don't know exactly how to phrase this, but hopefully I can get
the point accross regardless?
Is it just me, or are the ME writers, in this episode at least,
trying to make people think Gunn's going evil or is foreshadowing
such a possibility.
I'm referring to when Gunn suggests freezing Magnus Hainsley's
accounts. He says "I know something that'll hurt him. Hurt
him bad." with a sadistic tone in his voice. We then find
out that Gunn's idea was simply freezing Hainsley's assets, far
more harmless (relatively speaking) than what the tone of Gunn's
voice implied.
Do you think we'll keep seeing moments like this throughout season
5? Is it possible that one of these moments could very well end
up being the real thing? With Gunn doing something that crosses
the line?
Replies:
[> Re: Gunn (Spoilers for Just Rewards) -- Robert, 16:57:38
10/11/03 Sat
>>> Do you think we'll keep seeing moments like this
throughout season 5?
Yes, but that process began last season when, in Supersymmetry,
Gunn killed Oliver Seidel rather than allow Fred to do so, thus
staining his own soul. This action directly led to the breakup
between he and Fred. I believe that the implication is that Gunn
now has less reason than the others to resist the lure and temptation
of becoming evil. Gunn thinks he has less to lose.
[> [> Re: Gunn (Spoilers for Just Rewards) -- Sgamer82,
11:30:18 10/12/03 Sun
Which makes him the perfect choice to be the first one fully corrupted
by the power of Wolfram & Hart.
[> I'm not sure about that. -- Gyrus, 13:50:50 10/13/03
Mon
I'm referring to when Gunn suggests freezing Magnus Hainsley's
accounts. He says "I know something that'll hurt him. Hurt
him bad." with a sadistic tone in his voice. We then find
out that Gunn's idea was simply freezing Hainsley's assets, far
more harmless (relatively speaking) than what the tone of Gunn's
voice implied.
I think this line was merely meant to emphasize Gunn's new perspective
since he got his "education". He no longer has to rely
on his axe and his attitude to deal with enemies -- he can now
do battle on the legal and economic planes, as well. I think he
was just relishing the idea of exploiting an opponent's weaknesses
in a way he never could before.
On the other hand, we do know that W&H has specifically targeted
Gunn for some reason, and it probably has little to do with puppies
and candy hearts, so the idea that Gunn has stepped farther out
onto the slippery slope is also plausible.
The future of shps (spoilers through Ats 5.2
and 5.3 trailer)) -- Tyreseus, 16:58:39 10/11/03 Sat
I was reading Leslie and s'kat's fascinating discussion of Spike's
reason for turning to Fred. "Fred is the anti-Drusilla"
is possibly the most insightful thing I've read in weeks.
Anyway, it got me to thinking. Have the writers "wrapped"
on the whole Gunn-Fred-Wesley love triangle? We've seen no tension
this season, no indication of any kind that there are/were romantic
feelings among this group. They're all just good buddies.
I know that the trailer for next week indicates that Angel may
be falling for a werewolf (unspoiled beyond the trailer) and I'm
kinda hoping that some of the other characters might acknowledge
some of the past so we can start to get a pulse on what the AI
gang actually remembers from their life prior to W&H. Did
Gunn choose to get his mind "jacked up" as a new method
of impressing Fred and being the man she deserves? Is Wes still
torn with guilt over what happened to Lilah? Does he even remember
what happened with Lilah?
Don't mistake me for being a pusher of any particular ship. I'm
only interested in seeing some resolution to existing issues -or
at least some way to know that as far as the AI gang knows, there
were no issues.
And hey, while we're at it, are any of us ready to believe next
week that Angel is falling for someone while his most recent "love"
is sick in a coma and he's being faced with a constant reminder
of the "love of his life" in the form of Buffy's most
recent (not)boyfriend?
Replies:
[> Impact of the 'mind-wipe' -- Ladyhelix,
18:32:03 10/11/03 Sat
Forgive me- I'm new here, and you've probably already discussed
this. In a response to my post about Lindsey's last words to Angel
in season 2, Scroll suggested that one reason Wes might be acting
differently could be that more than Conner memories may have been
wiped away. Perhaps even all of Season #4. I'd never considered
that. If the gang "reverted" to what they knew at the
end of season #3... then that might explain some of the characterizations
that I have been puzzled by (Wes especially). This theory would
also impact the status of the "ships". So - what to
do think? - have MORE than the Conner memories been taken away
from the AI team? They seem to remember that Cordy is in a coma
- (or at least Wes does).
[> [> I still think that it's like Ben/Glory -- Finn
Mac Cool, 23:05:15 10/11/03 Sat
Think of the bus station near the end of "Spiral". Everyone
saw Ben turn into Glory, but they don't remember it. They know
Ben was there, they know Ben is gone, and they know Glory appeared
immediatly after. This should make them curious about some sort
of connection, but whenever they try thinking about it their minds
wander off and they forget they were ever wondering about it in
the first place. I suspect the same thing is happening with the
W&H gang. If Wesley thinks back to Season 3, he'll remember betraying
Angel and being ostracized for it, but won't remember exactly
what he did. This would make him curious as to why he can't remember,
but his mind instantly drifts from the topic and he forgets anything
was ever troubling him.
This, to me, seems like the best way for ME to go. Every effect
Connor had (both on the characters and on the storyline) is preserved,
but no one can remember the source of these effects and is incapable
of wondering why they can't remember. This way we get to keep
the characterisation of the past two years while stopping the
characters from wondering about gaps in their memories.
[> [> [> So, you say there was a connection between
Ben and Glory? -- grifter, 06:12:54 10/12/03 Sun
Oh, come on, someone had to say it! ;P
[> [> [> [> Well, that's obviouus. But, what kind
of connection? -- Ray, 13:49:20 10/12/03 Sun
Just playing Giles to your Anya
[> [> [> [> [> I think it had to do with ice
cream -- skeeve, 07:16:16 10/13/03 Mon
[> Re: The future of shps (spoilers through Ats 5.2 and
5.3 trailer)) -- Sgamer82, 11:59:17 10/12/03 Sun
I thought the Gunn/Fred relationship was taken care of back when
Angel was Angelus. As a result of Angelus's taunting, Gunn finally
broke it of with Fred for good. There wasn't anything happening
romantically between them from that point (though, granted, they
did have other things on their mind) and Gunn even made a pass
at his W&H guide back in Home.
[> Re: The future of shps (spoilers through Ats 5.2 and
5.3 trailer)) -- Cigarette Smoking Vampire, 03:55:25 10/13/03
Mon
I do get the feeling that the Gunn/Fred ship is pretty much history.
It doesn't appear that the writers are pairing them up in scenes
at all thus far and with him being "lawyer guy" and
her being "science queen" now, I don't see them having
as many opportunities to interact. My bold prediction (well, maybe
more lame than bold since it is so obvious) is a Wes/Fred/Knox
triangle.
As for Angel, I wouldn't be surprised to have him fall for werewolf
girl. IMO he is already falling for Eve a bit. In "Conviction"
he said something about her not being cute when he's angry, implying
that he does find her cute otherwise. What's the point of having
a great job, a great penthouse bachelor pad, and a fleet of hot
cars if you're not going to use them to get women anyway?
Question about Gunn and memories-possible spoilers
-- Ann, 17:52:07 10/11/03 Sat
If the memories of the AI gang have been removed for the last
two year (I believe that is the correct amount of time), yet Gunn
has been given knowledge of Wolfram law firm, is it possible he
was given their records and accounts of AI including info that
would fill in his memory about Connor and other stuff? Does he
have info the others don't know about other than Angel? I am pretty
new to AtS so this might not be correct but I was wondering. Thanks.
Replies:
[> Re: Question about Gunn and memories-possible spoilers
-- leslie, 19:00:47 10/11/03 Sat
I think the only memory that has been wiped is the memory of Connor,
specifically. Just as the monk retrofitted the Scoobies' memories
so that their entire lives were exactly the same, except Dawn
was there, it seems that everyone at AI remembers the whole last
year, including Jasmine, but without Connor. Which leads to the
interesting question: where do they think Jasmine came from? There
has also been no mention of Cordy's being Jasmine's mother, so
it seems that Jasmine is in their memories as just another Big
Bad who appears out of nowhere.
[> [> I'm not sure they remember her. -- Arethusa,
07:16:20 10/12/03 Sun
I don't think they could so casually discuss whether TPTB sent
Spike or whether there's dissention in the PTB ranks if they remembered
her. I think they would have at least mentioned her in the conversations
if they did remember.
[> [> Re: Where Jasmine came from - possible spoilers
-- Sgamer82, 11:49:03 10/12/03 Sun
That's actually pretty simple. As far as the Angel Investigations
gang's memory of the times are concerned, Cordelia could have
simply returned from the Higher Plane already pregnant with Jasmine.
[> [> Re: Question about Gunn and memories-possible spoilers
-- Ike the Cat, 17:33:44 10/12/03 Sun
Someone on another Angel discussion board was very angry about
this entire memory issue, proclaiming that (s)he would stop watching
the show unless the issue of what Wes, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne can
or cannot remember is addressed in an upcoming episode. His or
her argument was that, without the same memories, these folks
are in effect not the same people (s)he has grown to love. I was
very sad that a (supposedly) longtime fan of the show would bail
out for such specious reasons.
And it's vastly unlikely that any S5 episode will address this
issue directly because it would require too much exposition and
confuse new viewers too much. Especially now that AtS's ratings
have recovered somewhat this season from their low level last
season, with Smallvile and BtVS viewers tuning in who have never
watched before. Networks such as the WB are petrified of losing
potential new audiences by letting their shows be too "complicated,"
as if we're all a bunch of total morons. (Witness ABC executives
constantly harping about how "Alias" is "too confusing,"
as if it's rocket science or something. I like that show but it's
not "Ulysses" or anything. If it's confusing then I'm
Abraham Freaking Lincoln.)
[> [> [> Thinking it's too confusing doesn't mean
they think the audience is dumb -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:13:17
10/12/03 Sun
Even very smart people can be left confused if they're dropped
into the middle of a story with no knowledge of what happened
before. Perhaps smarter people can catch on faster, but even then
they can be left out of the loop if the network assumes they know
the backstory better than they actually do.
[> [> [> [> coming in halfway -- angel's nibblet,
22:11:29 10/12/03 Sun
this is perhaps one of the reasons i initially found stargate
SG1 confusing,because it had so much backstory re wat had previously
happened to the characters etc, though it is a very good show
IMO, or was, since i havnt seen the most recent seasons because
of silly tv channel putting it in the graveyard time slot and
then taking it off altogether, grrr. anyway what was i saying?
oh yeah, i found it quite confusing at first but i did manage
in the end, although i wouldnt say i know the story and episodes
etc as well as those of buffy and angel.
[> [> [> That memory wipe thing (spoilers for 4.22,
5.1, and 5.2) -- Masq, 15:47:51 10/13/03 Mon
the issue of what Wes, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne can or cannot
remember is addressed in an upcoming episode. His or her argument
was that, without the same memories, these folks are in effect
not the same people (s)he has grown to love
And they are right. Who are we but the sum of our memories? Who
are these characters if we don't know what they remember? We cannot
speculate on their motives, their intentions, their romantic entanglements
unless we know what they remember. Does Wesley remember betraying
Angel in season 3? Does he remember that that betrayal lead to
his dark path that ended in his involvement with Lilah?
Finding out what the gang remembers--whether it is a memory of
what really happened or an alternative memory--seems a basic requirement
of responsible story telling to me.
If ME does not address this in some fashion, then they are not
the writers I thought they were for seven years. They cannot be
so pandering to "new viewers and better ratings" that
they would leave us in the dark about what Wesley remembers of
the past two years, or Gunn, or Fred or Lorne.
I don't know yet if ME will address the memory wipe, but
given what I've seen so far, here are the reasons I think they
will:
(1) There was absolutely no good reason, in Home, for the memory
wipe. Angel could have sent Connor to a new life somewhere else,
and told his friends about his decision. They might have thought
he was wrong, but it was his decision, his son. And who could
deny something drastic needed to be done about Connor? Angel's
not the type to be shy about "I did this, deal with it."
Why create this convoluted plot device unless you plan to do something
with it? It can't be ratings.
There is no ratings reason for the memory wipe. Imagine season
5 as if the memory wipe had not happened. Occassionally, one of
the gang might see a brooding expression on Angel's face and say
softly (re: Connor), "You miss him, don't you?" And
Angel would nod, and the gang would go on with their jobs. They
would not have talked about the events of season 4 any more than
they already do, and confuse those poor newbies with back story.
(2) In "Conviction" (5.1) Eve specifically brings up
the memory wipe and reminds Angel about his choices concerning
Connor (mentioning Connor by name), and how none of Angel's friends
remember him. Angel gets a bit defensive about this. Why bring
it up if you don't want to burden viewers with back-story? You
bring it up because Angel will be forced to deal with his choices
later in some future plot line that hasn't been fully developed
yet.
(3) In "Just Rewards" (5.2) Spike tells the gang about
his relationship with Buffy and the fact that he has a soul now.
The gang is a little miffed that Angel didn't inform them about
these facts. Gunn then makes the comment (I don't have my transcript
with me) about Angel keeping secrets from them. It's not the important
issue of episode 2, so it passes in a minute. But it seems to
me it could be one of those foreshadowing moments that latter
on gets blown open when the gang becomes more distrustful of Angel
and their memories and their reasons for accepting Wolfram and
Hart's offer in Home, which is the major issue of season
5.
[> [> [> [> Re: That memory wipe thing (spoilers
for 4.22, 5.1, and 5.2) -- jane, 16:07:31 10/13/03 Mon
Interesting, Masq. I agree, the memory wipe issue is lurking at
Angel's shoulder, and will probably come back to bite him. Something
I thought about last night - was the memory wipe somehow necessary
for the spell on Connor to work? Sort of a reverse engineering
of the whole Dawn memory insertion spell? Was it ever made clear
that the memory wiping was Angel's choice? Just wondering.
[> [> [> [> [> They were pretty mysterious (4.22
& 5.1 spoilers) -- Masq, 17:05:41 10/13/03 Mon
It went down like this. Lilah is trying to convince Angel to take
the Senior Partner's offer in Home. Angel is saying "No way".
Lilah turns on the television and shows Angel the news, where
there is a report of Connor holding hostages at a sporting goods
store. They show an image of Connor on the screen.
ANGEL (through gritted teeth) You set this whole thing up.
LILAH Been a little busy with the being dead.
ANGEL You, the senior partners, whoever. Get 'em on the phone
and make it stop (low) now.
LILAH Love to, except for the part where we didn't have anything
to do with-
ANGEL But you know who did.
LILAH Yeah, I'm looking at him. You're the one who raised him
or didn't. (Angel lets her go; Lilah clears throat) Can't imagine
how the kid turned out postal.
ANGEL You don't know a thing about Connor, huh. Let's keep it
that way. (walks toward the door)
LILAH One time offer only, Angel. Walk out that door, deal's off.
Stay, and it's all yours.
Angel then says to Lilah, "People like you, this place, that's
what's wrong with the world, Lilah. I will never be a part of
this. (sighs, stares at the image of Connor on the screen) Not
the way you're hoping. (walks up to Lilah) Now let me tell you
what the deal's gonna be."
The next time we see Angel, he is at the sporting goods store.
He tells Connor he's going to prove he loves him, and he stabs
him. The scene cuts off at that point.
Then we go to the scene where the gang meets up in the lobby of
W&H, to discuss whether or not to take the deal. Note
that they all were busy making up their minds right around the
time Angel invoked the "Connor's new life spell".
Lilah shows up, and Angel asks to see Connor in his new life.
ANGEL Just one more piece of business. I got to see him.
LILAH I'm sorry, Angel, but that wasn't part of the deal.
ANGEL Value of compromise. Remember, Lilah? I need to see him.
LILAH You're the boss. (hands Angel the file and amulet) There'll
be a limo waiting outside. It'll take you to see Connor.
Fred then says, "Who's Connor"? (They lost their memories
of Connor while making up their minds about the W&H deal)
We never see the conversation in which Lilah and Angel hammer
out the deal, but both parties have some leverage here. Angel
will take the deal if W&H helps him save Connor. Angel has enough
power in this situation to dictate at least some of the terms
of how "saving Connor" will work. But he is asking W&H to
help him, so they will be able to dictate some of the terms, too.
We don't know who dictated the memory wipe.
Perhaps W&H made this part of the deal, and Angel was forced to
accept it. However, in "Conviction", Eve implies that
Angel made this choice, or at least, that when W&H dictated terms,
they demanded the memory wipe and Angel went along with it:
EVE Hits you where you live, doesn't it?
(Angel stands, glares at Eve) Of course I know. You lost your
son. Well, gave him up.
ANGEL To save him.
EVE Which you did. He's happy and well-adjusted now that he has
no memory of you, and the rest of the world, including your best
friends, (whispers) never even heard of Connor.
She says the last part like an accusation, and Angel gets defensive.
Bottom line: we don't know who dictated that the memory wipe occur.
Could have been Angel (to help Connor have a completely clean
break), could have been W&H (as a necessary part of the mojo,
perhaps).
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: They were pretty mysterious
(4.22 & 5.1 spoilers) -- jane, 18:26:57 10/13/03 Mon
Thanks, Masq. Guess I'll just have to accept the ambiguity of
it all. I have a feeling that we'll learn more as the season progresses.
Hope so.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Connor question --
sdev, 20:30:09 10/13/03 Mon
What I never understood or maybe missed is-- What happened to
Connor's supernatural abilities, strength, smell, etc?
How would altering his memories and past affect his actual body?
Are we supposed to assume that that was altered as well?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also unanswered questions
-- Masq, 20:54:16 10/13/03 Mon
There were no answers given about these questions in "Home".
We can only speculate:
When we peek into Connor's new life at the end of Home, he seems
happy and normal. Eve says in "Conviction" that Connor
is "happy and well-adjusted". But that really doesn't
tell us anything about Connor, except that he has no memory of
his former life, and does have memories of a life he never really
lived (like Dawn).
People have speculated all manner of things about him:
Is he still Darla and Angel's biological son? Maybe not, but I'm
going to say yes, since he still looks the same. He has the same
genes.
Is he still the metaphysical offspring of two vampires? This is
a slightly different question. Both Angel and Darla were once
human, and Connor can be their human biological child with no
special metaphysical powers at all.
In "Release", Connor tries to hit Angelus and gets knocked
out by the anti-demon violence spell. This seems to indicate
that Connor was at least part demon up until the end of Home,
and that that is the source of his special strength and powers.
Now, the spell to put Connor into his new life could have taken
away those demony powers as well, leaving Connor 100% human. However,
I don't think altering his memories could take away his physical
powers. I think it would have to be an extra bit of mojo on top
of the memory mojo spell.
One would think that W&H would remove Connor's powers if
they could, if they truly intend to let Connor go on to lead a
"normal" life. Otherwise, he's going to get curious
about himself (like he would if he were the only one in his family
that could leap off tall buildings in a single bound without busting
his coconut).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also unanswered
questions -- sdev, 00:16:33 10/14/03 Tue
It makes sense to have remade him physically as well so he blended
in to his new enviornment without messy questions. But the additional
physical change is much more extensive and really jacks up the
ante. Not only is his memory changed but he is practically a whole
different person.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Other
Erased Memories -- Claudia, 11:55:54 10/14/03 Tue
Will the erased memories of Connor be the only thing Angel might
have to contend with in future episodes? Will the events of "I
Will Always Remember You" come back to haunt him?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [cue
dramatic music] Tune in to 'Angel the Series' Season 5 and Find
Out -- The First Naughty Virtue, 13:12:12 10/14/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> Maybe we'e not supposed to think of
them as the same characters -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:04:17
10/14/03 Tue
ME has described Season 5 as being like a whole new show, perhaps
that means totally revamping the main characters until they're
like new ones as well.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe we'e not supposed to
think of them as the same characters -- Masq, 09:14:08
10/14/03 Tue
ME has described Season 5 as being like a whole new show, perhaps
that means totally revamping the main characters until they're
like new ones as well.
This is exactly what has long-time loyal viewers so upset. That
ME would do this to attract new viewers and get ratings and totally
alienate loyal viewers who have been watching the show for four
years.
It's not ME's style, or Joss' style, to forget his character's
past. It comes back to haunt them again and again. There are things
Joss might do to bring in ratings (put the gang in an interesting
new situation at W&H, bring Spike over from BtVS), but I don't
see him destroying character continuity in the name of ratings.
[> [> [> [> Somehow, the memory wipe issue seems...
-- Random, 19:43:10 10/14/03 Tue
...to be highly selective. Almost like meta-editing, bit by bit.
In other words, something far more complex and difficult than
merely memory wipe ala Willow/Tara. As someone noted, it's more
along the Dawn-made-manifest lines (except, you know, in reverse)
so that the lives of the AI gang have been subtlely altered but
not dramatically. Connor does X and Y results? Y still results,
but the X is done by someone else, or the X becomes W. I agree
that, in practice, this leads to an extremely convoluted rewriting
of history and clearly ME can't address every specific thing that
would have changed if Connor hadn't been there. And, like Dawn's
case, the memories added would be false. Removing the memories
without adding or altering would have been noticable to the AI
members immediately (except maybe Lorne, caught up as he was in
fanboy glee) as they struggled to peice together why they were
even in W&H and how they got there. But perhaps the ghost of Connor
lingers in their minds even now. W&H is not omnipotent, and this
would have had to be a damned powerful spell in the first place.
I can imagine that, some nights, Wesley wakes up in a sweat from
dreams he cannot recall, feeling that something important has
been taken from his life, a lingering sense of loss carrying over
from the forgotten dream. Or Fred stops for a moment in the middle
of work and daydreams, and can almost make out a familiar
form at the edges of her imagination, but shakes it off and returns
to her potions. That's the way it would be in my Buffyverse.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Somehow, the memory wipe
issue seems... -- Ann, 07:55:27 10/15/03 Wed
"W&H is not omnipotent, and this would have had to be a damned
powerful spell in the first place."
I agree and that is why I think Gunn might be the key to the release
of the "forgotten dream". I like that description. The
info dump into him may contain keys of the truth. Maybe even a
document Angel signed. This is a law firm after all.
Didn't Buffy eventually have dreams of her pre-Dawn life after
Dawn came?
I also agree that Fred might be open to this remembering more
than the others. She is a scientist but Spike was correct in going
to her for help. She has a gentle heart. I think the footprint
(so to speak) of AI's love of Connor remains with them. I don't
think a person can be wiped clean from another's heart. Plus stuff
won't add up.
Spike seems 'different' (Spoilers 5.2) --
Ladyhelix,
19:48:43 10/11/03 Sat
I've noticed that Spike is "speaking" (but - not necessarily
"acting") a lot more UPPER-CRUSTY. More "William",
less "Back to the wall - nothing but fist & fangs".
Is it just by chance, or might this also mean that something more
has happened with/to him. (Maybe JM just got a speech coach now
that ASH is out of the picture). Any ideas?
If it's intentional - what do you think it means?
Replies:
[> A friendly note -- Masq, 19:55:39 10/11/03 Sat
Hi Ladyhelix and welcome to the board!
You'll notice your subject line has been altered a bit. We have
a policy here of not revealing recent plot points in subject lines
and labeling recent plot points in our posts with "spoiler
warnings" in our subject lines. It's all explained in the
link above (Spoiler policy).
Not picking on you in particular, but just making a point to all
newbies and a reminder to board regulars that some folks don't
see the ep for a few days after it airs and we like to be considerate
of them.
Again, welcome!
[> [> Thank you SO much! -- Ladyhelix
(blushing), 21:08:37 10/11/03 Sat
Masq, thank you SO VERY MUCH! I completely forgot that some folks
were on a "delayed viewing schedule"! I am SO sorry!!
I really appreciate you letting me know, and for being so kind
about it! I am coachable - Thanks again!
- Nanette
[> Re: Spike seems 'different' (Spoilers 5.2) -- cougar,
20:30:00 10/11/03 Sat
I noticed a shift in accent too, but it seemed to me to be from
"Geordie" (like Robson Greeen) to "Cockney".
Same class, diferent location. Of course I only have a PBS/BBC
linguistic fantasy map of the UK in my Canadian head. Maybe JM
heard that accent while visiting Britain this summer and just
picked it up. We'll see if the nuance means anything. BTW Was
Angel's loss of an Irish accent something he deliberately did
to banish Liam from his makeup as well as Angelus? Was this ever
explained?
[> [> Re: Spike seems 'different' (Spoilers 5.2)
-- angel's nibblet, 20:44:48 10/11/03 Sat
maybe it was just another thing he did in order to distance himself
from the angelus image. in the season 2 ep set in the fifties
"Are you now or have you ever been" we see that Angel
already has a fully american accent, so it must have happened
in the early 20th century. why is never explained. maybe he just
did it to fit in better, but then again that was never really
one of his priorities.
[> [> [> OT, just felt an earthquake here in Victoria
BC -- cougar, 21:01:33 10/11/03 Sat
anyone else feel it elsewhere or or we just on a hellmouth?
[> [> [> [> That's what you get for questioning
Angel's accent (or lack thereof). -- leslie, 21:03:18 10/11/03
Sat
[> [> [> [> [> I promice I'll be good! --
cougar, 21:13:37 10/11/03 Sat
[> [> [> Re: Spike seems 'different' (Spoilers 5.2)
-- ladyhelix, 21:14:34 10/11/03 Sat
LOL!! No - Spike never did worry too much about conforming to
anyone else's expectations! Just another way our boys are polar
opposites! Hey - maybe the change is his soul! It was clear that
a lot of JM's dialog in 5.2 as "overdubbed" - especially
the bit in the lobby (when Angel kills his "3:00 appointment".
[> [> [> [> Re: Spike seems 'different' (Spoilers
5.2) -- Doriander, 12:36:35 10/12/03 Sun
Oh god, It drove me nuts. They should refrain from having
JM loop his dialogue from here on in. It really took away from
the spontaneity of the scenes. And wow, I can see now why JM relies
on Method so heavily, his line readings in the looped dialogue
was OFF. It's especially hard to get past when you've seen the
work print copy at least fifteen times (in tandem with the Conviction
work print. There was a download frenzy of the copies two weeks
before the premiere, couldn't resist. Me? Obsessed?). The sound
quality in that cut was fine (unlike the Conviction cut, where
among other things, DB was not miked in in that long opening shot),
JM's voice was fine, his accent actually reclaimed something,
and his delivery was excellent, so I'm really baffled as to what
went wrong in post production. In that cut, he sounded like Spike
pre-UPN tenure, though a hint more withdrawn, which I thought
made contextual sense. I remain ambivalent with some of his acting
choices in the first two scenes (Angel's office, lab), intact
in the aired cut, but otherwise was just overwhelmed with "JM
is reSpikified! I didn't realize how deSpikified he'd been! Let's
never lose this Spike!" It really was something to behold.
The overdubbing in the broadcast was like hearing a revered song
get butchered. What peeved me most was they looped key Angel/Spike
moments I was particlarly taken with; the corridor to lobby scene,
spats at Hainsley's hallway, splices in the bedroom. Granted in
said scenes, some of Gunn and Angel's lines were looped as well,
but those didn't rely on momentum, unlike the delivery of those
impassioned speeches. And how obvious was the discordant modulation
in those? Really messed up the vibe DB and JM had going. Spike's
tone in the corridor to lobby walk was smart, not hokey,
and his "you got it too good" speech was less angry!spiteful,
more imploring!spiteful in the work print. And dammit, they had
a nice complicit vibe in the bedroom scene that didn't translate
to the aired cut. It's so distracting, Spike conversing with that
intimate cadence of his spliced with him seemingly talking from
a speaker phone. Perhaps the rough cut has really skewed me, but
I really hope they re-master the ep for the DVD's because the
broadcast lost a lot, at least from this obsessive's perspective.
/end hardcore Angel/Spike shipper rant. Their milestones should
be nothing short of perfect dammit ;-). Still loved the ep.
[> [> [> [> [> LOL! (Spoilers 5.2) -- s'kat,
16:49:49 10/12/03 Sun
Thank you for that...even though a good bit went over my head,
having not seen the rough cut, it does explain why a couple of
scenes in the episode seemed off to me. I thought it was just
me, until I read your rant.
The scenes were the hallway, the scene where he tells Angel he
knows him and the bedroom scene - the voice didn't quite match
the lips on the screen and it felt oddly discordant.
I think it was a production error not an acting one. Especially
since - when they do these things they do numerous takes then
splice them together...the editing was off a bit in this episode.
Maybe the insertion of special effects threw them off? Not sure.
But would agree - the looping didn't quite work and it wasn't
just Spike, I noticed it in a scene with Wes as well.
Hoping they get this under control - S6 BTVS had a lot of these
editing flubs as well, which were equally distracting - Older
and Far Away being amongst the worst.
(And here I'd always blamed UPN for it.)
[> Re: Spike seems 'different' (Spoilers 5.2) -- Sgamer82, 11:53:47
10/12/03 Sun
Maybe it's just a result of Spike's having a soul now. As Souled
Spike, he is just a little bit more William now than he was as
Souless Spike. Not much, it's not that noticable in his general
personality, but every now and then it's clear he's no longer
the Spike of old, thanks (at least in part) to his soul. There
could also be some connection to Spike's delcaration at the end
of Chosen about how he could finally "feel his soul."
That could have brought out a change.
[> [> Re: Spike seems 'different' (Spoilers 5.2)
-- angel's nibblet, 21:57:55 10/12/03 Sun
or it could be that he was just so pissed off at seeing angel
and being there that it brought out the old spike... maybe it's
just something that angel brings out in him, or the general confusion
of the moment, don't know bout you but if that happened to me
i would be slightly off and confused too.
Spike has a temperature! -- Eli, 15:44:13
10/12/03 Sun
Last week, Fred examined Spike and said he was giving off heat.
Could Spike be changing back into a human?
The amulet's purpose was to purify, well it did a good job.
Could it have placed Spike into a position where he had to decide
which eternal place he wanted to go?
And any thoughts on how Spike will get over Buffy to start a romance
with Fred? Could part of breaking the amulet's spell is for Spike
and Fred to have give and take pure relationship?
Thanks
Replies:
[> Ghostly Decay? -- dmw, 16:23:37 10/12/03 Sun
Spike also seems to be fading away. Could the heat he's giving
off be a result of the decay process in manner similar to how
radioactive materials provide heat?
[> [> Re: Ghostly Decay? -- tapioca, 16:52:03
10/12/03 Sun
Hi! I'm new, but have been lurking for years. I thought it was
time I posted.
Fred was also getting brain wave activity which does lend itself
to support the whole becoming human theory. He also seems to have
retained his vampiric nature as well and one wonders if they manage
to stop him from fading away if he will still need to feed on
blood or will develop into something different. A vampire/human
hybrid perhaps? Or maybe he'll be able to touch things without
other basic creature needs like feeding?
[> Spoilers Above for Angel Season 5 -- sdev, 22:29:06
10/12/03 Sun
[> Re: Spike has a temperature! (5.2 spoilers) -- Cigarette
Smoking Vampire, 03:44:11 10/13/03 Mon
I am no science whiz, but I am a Spike loving geek. So of course,
I looked around right after that episode aired to try to find
out if they were giving us a big clue there. IIRC what Fred said
was the Spike was "radiating heat." Apparently, all
objects radiate heat. She also mentioned in response to his quip
about being "hot" that he was just above room temperature.
So, I don't think there is any evidence there about the possibility
of Spike becoming human. Of course, since she said he was just
above room temperature, there is a slight possibility if his temperature
continues to rise, but I suspect not right now.
[> [> Maybe he just has a fever -- skeeve, 07:01:07
10/13/03 Mon
All ampires have some metabolism.
They have the energy to move around.
They should all be at least a little above room temperature.
Apparently Spike is a bit more above room temperature than the
average vampire.
Of course that doesn't explain brain wave activity.
It really doesn't explain how Fred was able to detect it with
the instruments she was using.
Mercy (spoilers 5.01) -- Diana, 20:04:54
10/12/03 Sun
Not sure I saw this up last week, so I'm posting now. Angel mentions
that mercy is the one thing more powerful than conviction in the
Joss-written season premier. We have seen how Joss hides nice
little tidbits in his scripts, especially the season premier.
In Judgment, the season two premier (the last season premier written
by Boss Joss himself) written by Joss and Greenwalt,
Host: Love the coat. It's all about the coat. Welcome to Caritas.
You know what that means?
Angel: It's Latin for mercy.
Think maybe Lorne will be crucial to beating Wolfram and Hart
this season?
Replies:
[> good catch! hope so....itd make Lorne more interesting..
-- Nino, 20:33:26
10/12/03 Sun
[> I like the possibilities -- LittleBit, 23:16:12
10/12/03 Sun
Interesting tie-back, and could bode well for Lorne. I'm going
to hope so, anyway.
[> That struck me as well ; it's all connected... :)
-- jane, 00:28:29 10/13/03 Mon
[> I hadn't noticed that connection, good point -- Deacon,
14:08:33 10/13/03 Mon
My analysis of 'Just Rewards' is up -- Masquerade,
18:43:49 10/12/03 Sun
After seven years and hundreds of episodes, ME are still the kings
and queens of metaphors, metaphysics, and moral ambiguity. Here.
Replies:
[> A little something on Ghosts -- Rufus, 22:21:37
10/12/03 Sun
From the Penguin dictionary of Symbols.....
Ghost: The image of the ghost embodies, and in a sense symbolizes,
the fears of beings who dwell in another world. The ghost returning
may perhaps also be an apparition of the ego, of the unknown ego,
springing out of the unconscious, inspiring an almost panic fear
and being thrust back into darkness. The ghost might well
be the reality which is disowned, feared and rejected. The analyst
would regard all this as the return of the repressed off-scourings
of the unconscious.
Spike vs Giles -- JBone, 05:12:03 10/13/03
Mon
Two of them. English like me, but older, less
attractive.
http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html
Trying a regular vote again, don't make me take it down and do
the email thing again. Post comments here or at the voting site.
Replies:
[> Re: Spike vs Giles -- Celebaelin, 06:01:58 10/13/03
Mon
The tournament keeps on providing these needle matches. There's
no love lost in this bout as some quotage of the quality snark
will easily show "cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged,
cuppa tea" vs "we are not your way to Buffy". Tabula
Rasa showed the underlying nature of the hostility between these
two even in the absence of the vamp. factor. 'Made with care for
Randy.' (looks at Giles angrily) Randy Giles? Why not just call
me 'Horny Giles,' or 'Desperate for a Shag Giles'? I knew there
was a reason I hated you! Whilst Giles doesn't have the physical
power to beat Spike in a knockdown fight and has only rarely been
seen to use magic the war of words could be monumentally savage
and I don't think Spike would survive it, and that's saying something.
Time for some home truths, at least it won't be a waste of breath
now, Giles wins.
[> [> I finally got the results up -- Jay, 11:13:38
10/15/03 Wed
here
I'll have the Buffy v Fred results up later today. I promise.
[> [> [> Hurrah! -- Celebaelin, 11:37:26 10/15/03
Wed
[> [> and some more results are up -- Jay, 15:13:18
10/15/03 Wed
here
Should I start the championship tomorrow morning or Friday morning?
[> Re: Spike vs Giles -- MaeveRigan, 07:17:19 10/13/03
Mon
I voted for Giles. I don't know how he'd defeat Spike; in fact,
I don't know how he defeated Willow and I'm not completely happy
about that. But if Giles was able to defeat the most powerful
witch in the world, a virtual goddess (if you believe Kennedy,
which I don't, frankly, but I'm grasping at straws here)--then
he should certainly be able to dust a punk vampire.
Oh, all right--he doesn't have to actually dust Spike. Dumbledore!Giles
settles for a handy demonstration of knot-tying (for which he
won several badges as a Boy Scout before he went all Ripper),
without ever coming within reach of Spike's lethal-weapon fists
and fangs: a spell in ancient Akkadian, some subtle waving fingers
and--voila!--Spike's trussed up like a Christmas turkey. All he
needs is an apple to sink his fangs in. Angel (still brooding
after losing in the previous round) hands the apple to Giles(what's
left of the one from Eve's first visit to W&H), and Giles
leaves the ring.
[> Spike takes a fall -- manwitch, 08:06:10 10/13/03
Mon
Funny, it didn't even look like Giles hit him, but Spike is down.
You don't think Spike took money, do you? No, he wouldn't.
Never.
[> [> Don't Underestimate -- Claudia, 09:51:40
10/14/03 Tue
It's not wise to underestimate Spike. Too many people have over
the years, much to their detriment.
He may be impatient, but Spike is no dummy. And like Angel had
said, he can be very relentless, as well.
[> Sombrero wearin' man vs. Where's my nailpolish guy
-- deeva, 08:55:41 10/13/03 Mon
Ugh. I hate this mathc up.
On one hand Giles is totally capable of taking anyone down, really.
But he's played his fair share of damsel in distress, too. I'm
gonna go out on a limb and say that Spike takes this round on
the off chance that he actually thinks this thing through and
sees the opening that Giles leaves for him.
*sigh* Have I mentioned how I hate this match up?
[> Re: Spike vs Giles -- punkinpuss, 09:12:52 10/13/03
Mon
Oh, crikey! I hate this matchup, too! I adore Giles, but he's
proven very fallible of late, so I've gotta go with Spike on this
one. Let's just pretend that they're trading snark over a bottle
of single malt whisky and Spike drinks Giles under the table.
They're both so cute when they're drunk!
[> Re: Spike vs Giles -- s'kat, 09:14:39 10/13/03
Mon
Tough decision, I started watching BTVS for Giles. I had to rely
on my alphabet voting style, ie. Who comes last in the alphabet
wins.
William vs. Giles = William
Rupert vs. Spike = Spike
Also? Giles is a tad too hesistant to do his own dirty work as
Lies My Parents Told Me bore out. Spike? Nooo problemo.
Of course there's the hesitancy for gore - "not wanting to
spend the next month picking librarian out of the carpet",
yet Spike's got Rupert's number: "feeling no longer useful
are we? Can't handle the fact that the girl has surpassed you
long ago?" Sent Rupert into his cups way back in Yoko factor
and shook him in Touched.
Spike has Giles number in both hand to hand and snark.
But - if Ripper made an appearance? Even money.
[> [> Ripper -- Celebaelin, 17:25:19 10/13/03
Mon
Spike has Giles number in both hand to hand and snark.
But - if Ripper made an appearance? Even money.
Ripper took too many risks. Kinda cool with an outré pov
perhaps, but still NQOCD even for the Mitfords. At root he was
still an idiot child messing with the laws of the universe in
ways he couldn't comprehend or compensate for. His tradition in
many ways was the saving of him, albeit that initially it was
his ruin, ultimately he found his place in servitude. Whether
you can consider his existence noble or not probably depends on
whether you feel he was obliged to pursue that form of life or
not. I like Giles as he is better than I would like him if he
had continued to abdicate responsibility.
I hope.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
C
[> Re: Spike vs Giles -- Charlotte
Stanbery, 09:52:43 10/13/03 Mon
Spike has to win. Giles is delightful and yummy too, and if he
was a little more Ripper and a little less Giles...but he isn't,
so Spike wins - INMHO.
[> Oh bloody--as usual--hell. (Somewhat spoilery for A5)
-- cjl, 17:12:40 10/13/03 Mon
Giles and Spike spend the first round of their contest trading
obsolete British colloquialisms, taking great care to confuse
all the Yanks in the audience. They graduate to insults, where
Spike zings Giles for the Watcher's three-year (and counting)
shagging dry spell; Giles counterpunches beautifully by devouring
a heaping plateful of fish and chips in front of Spike, then waving
a steaming shepherd's pie in front of Spike's incorporeal nose.
Spike spews a geyser of invective at Giles, who then calmly cocks
his head to one side and says: "Hmmm. The accent's not quite
right. You're going to have to work on that." Spike's image
shimmers then explodes in a shower of sparks.
[> [> what? no bloomin' onions? -- anom, 21:47:56
10/14/03 Tue
[> See, the thing about a shiny new soul is... -- Apophis,
18:18:10 10/13/03 Mon
it kinda makes you soft. Spike hasn't been his Subordinate-to-the-Scourge
of Europe self lately; even Buffy bitched him out for being too
big a wuss since his little trip to the Motherland. But a soul
never stopped Ruppert from doing what had to be done. Under the
right conditions, Giles would do HHHHHhhhhorrible things to Spike;
in fact, screw the right conditions, Giles hates Spike. And, like
Dawn said, even vampires have to sleep sometime...
[> Demanding a recount! -- Rook, 18:38:21 10/13/03
Mon
Is it me, or is a little odd that every Spike related contest
gets about +30 votes over the average EXCEPT for the E-Mail vote?
[> [> If I was the paranoid sort... -- Jay, 20:04:40
10/13/03 Mon
and I'm not saying I'm not, I'd believe it was Spike fans that
voted Giles in over Willow just so he wouldn't have to face her.
Watch out Buffy, the Spike cult will vote for Fred just so they
won't have to face you.
I'm still considering the option of voiding today's results to
go to a email only vote, depending on what today's vote ends up
being. But unless Spike has just a ridiculous number of votes
compared to his past performances (especially the email vote),
Giles has to hit a certain level of votes himself to make me think
he might have been cheated.
This is not an invitation to cheat for Giles. I really don't like
doing the email votes.
[> [> We're 30 votes over the average RttA contest. Again.
-- cjl (interpret this as you will), 20:32:20 10/13/03 Mon
[> This is headed for something awful -- mamcu, 19:19:25
10/13/03 Mon
Buffy vs. Spike. I won't be able to vote.
[> Spike beat Angel, so.... (30 extra votes) -- Rochefort,
21:54:00 10/13/03 Mon
Out of gratitude, I'm voting for him over Giles. Even though I
love Giles very much. J-bone, as a comment about the thirty extra
votes, it seems to me quite possible that there are some people
drawn into the voting when Spike is present that wouldn't be otherwise.
As an example, I haven't voted in the last 15 rounds or so, but
I voted today because Spike kicked Angel's ass, and I wanted to
show my gratitude. As a second example, most of my friends don't
watch Angel traditionally, but have been tuning in to see how
Spike is doing and certainly the WB planned on this.
[> [> The 30 extras -- deeva, 09:33:12 10/14/03
Tue
That's pretty much what I think too. That the extra voters (not
all but more than likely a good enough number) don't vote on any
of the other rounds though it would be nice if they did.
[> [> Re: Spike beat Angel, so.... (30 extra votes)
-- s'kat, 12:11:46 10/14/03 Tue
Ditto.
I didn't vote in every round. I don't read the board every day.
And I have friends who lurk here who don't vote in every round
either. I also know there are people from other boards who just
vote for certain matchups, not all the match-ups.
[> [> For those who hunger for a rematch.. -- sdev,
14:33:27 10/14/03 Tue
Zap2it has a contest going that has resulted in a head to head
between Angel and Spike. So get your comeuppance here:
http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,271|84048|1|,00.html
A vote either way can't hurt the show's rep.
[> [> [> 35,000 votes last round! But the voting site
for CD vs TPoD isn't up yet -- Celebaelin, 16:39:10 10/14/03
Tue
Happy Thanksgiving to our Canadian friends
-- Cactus Watcher, 06:59:58 10/13/03 Mon
Replies:
[> Thank you -- Deacon, 07:26:39 10/13/03 Mon
[> Thanks, Happy Turkey Day to all : ) -- Scroll, 13:59:44
10/13/03 Mon
She Slays Too -- Sstars5, 07:59:47 10/13/03
Mon
Being a fan of both Buffy and Xena-Warrior Princess, I've noticed
many parallels. Both of these strong female characters are warriors
for good. They stand up for the wrongs in the world. Supernatural
or human, both women step up to the plate to get things done without
any fear. Xena and Buffy are two female warriors that are led
by destiny. They face monsters too scary to be conjured by any
dream and have even faced Gods/Goddesses. Both of them almost
facing their demise by a God but, not even an immortal being with
endless powers could bring them down.
If you have never heard of Xena, I'll give you a small glimpse.
Xena is a woman living during the Golden Age who chose to follow
the sword in order to claim vengeance for her brother's death.
She led a dark life filled with blood shed and a lust for power.
She was known as the Conquerer of Nations and the world trembled
before her, that is until a moment in her life changed her. Now,
she uses her sword only for good. If you enjoy watching beautifully
coreographed hand to hand combat, haunting instrumental music,
great one liners (which I know Buffy is superb at), a heart warming
friendship or just want an entertaining story then Xena is for
you.
Season 2 on DVD has just been released and of course I had to
have it. Versions contain a thirty minute interview with the amazing
Lucy Lawless and actor audio/visual commentary and bonus disc
containing Xena Trivia, actors' bios, plus lots more. Also, did
you know that Xena did a little vampire slaying of her own?
In season 2 on DVD there is an episode called, "Girls Just
Wanna Have Fun" where Xena must face the vampires of the
Golden Age known as Baccchae and even becomes one herself. Its
a different twist on vampires I know you'll enjoy.
Thought I would share info about another "vampire slayer".
But of course, Buffy is the one and only for that job!
Allow the legend to live again. Battle on Xena!
~Sstar5~
Replies:
[> Ahem -- MaeveRigan, 09:09:00 10/13/03 Mon
This is such a cute, thinly disguised ad for Xena DVDs!
'Cos who amongst us, seriously, doesn't know who Xena is?
I'm thinking this is one post that doesn't belong on this board.
And normally I would never, ever say such a thing.
[> [> Re: Ahem -- Masq, 12:31:18 10/13/03 Mon
Well, if they had a link to a "convenient place to buy that
DVD", I might unapprove the message, but see, we have a much
more fun tradition here at ATPo, and that's taking posts like
this wildly off-topic into our own fascinating analyses of well,
whatever.
Of course, we could start OT with a little Xena-Buffy comparison,
but I'll leave that to someone else, as I've seen exactly one
and a half episodes of Xena total.
[> [> [> This sounds like a job for SUPERROB!!!
-- The First Naughty Virtue, 12:51:52 10/13/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Did somebody call my name? -- Rob,
tripping on his cape, 20:32:29 10/13/03 Mon
I'm unfortunately too busy to do a thorough analysis right now
of "Buffy" and "Xena", but here's a quick
list of similarities between the two shows:
Both heroines died, and were resurrected, twice.
Both had best friends/sidekicks who came to challenge their authority.
Both had a shadow self/villain character whose evil they had an
indirect part in helping create.
Both have a "forbidden love."
Both come to rely on their closest friends for help.
Both have drunken blood at a time (Buffy in "Buffy vs. Dracula",
Xena in "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun").
Both series have lovable loser characters who end up being more
noble than it might seem at first glance (Xander and Joxer).
Both did musical episodes.
Both shows were big on the pop culture references.
Both shows had a number of self-referential or self-mocking episodes.
Um, if you cut the "y" off the last letter of Buffy's
name, they both have the same amount of letters in their first
name!
Okay, I'm clearly running on fumes now. cjl, would you care to
continue? I'll try to write something more coherent tomorrow.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Also to clarify on Xena doing
'vampire slaying of her own'... -- Rob, 20:43:59 10/13/03
Mon
Xena had an episode called Girls Just Wanna Have Fun
in which Xena faced the (on this show) evil god, Bacchus, and
a troop of girls who had been turned into Bacchae, blood-sucking,
soulless vampiric freaks that kind of look like the female version
of The Lost Boys. But all Xena actually does is stab Bacchus.
On his death, all the girls revert back to their normal, human,
living forms. Thus, no strict vampire slayage was done. God-slayage,
however, was, which is interesting, because, continuity-wise,
we later learn this season that a god can only be killed with
Hind's Blood. Xena does not stab Bacchus with Hind's Blood. Further,
she does not get her god-killing powers till the fifth season,
so how'dja do it, Xena?
This can-you-kill-a-god point, btw, is a sore continuity point
with me, especially since, in the sixth season, she cannot kill
gods anymore, so convinces the newly god-ed Caligula to kill himself,
when we know from Callisto's plight in the third season that a
god can't kill him or herself (Callisto, after she became a god,
begged Xena to find her Hind's Blood so she could end her miserable
existence). The only thing again, is Hind's Blood or Xena-with-god-killing-powers.
Okay, gonna leave before I belabor the point, or get so far off-topic
I cause my own head to rupture!
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> nit-picky -- monsieurxander,
23:46:40 10/13/03 Mon
There are several different ways to kill a god.
1) In an episode in one of the last seasons, shortly after being
resurrected from their joint crucifixion, Xena and Gabrielle find
a different Chakram and kill the local war god with it. It was
"one of the few ways to kill a god."
2) Hind's blood.
3) And later, Xena herself while her daughter Eve is still alive.
Not really sure how that one's explained.
As for Bacchus, they stated earlier in the episode that the only
way to kill a Bacchae is to stab her in the chest with a Driad
bone. I suppose it's assumed that the same works for Bacchus,
as well.
Also, guys.... Let's remember that Xena and Hercules
are far inferior to Buffy in the continuity department
(Callisto's sister, Amazon tribe sketchiness, Gabrielle's outfit
change and weapon in season 1, Xena's past sketchiness.........
not to mention Ares's facial hair...).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> 'Xena' continuity
flubs are so prevalent in fact that the insane fans... --
Rob, 09:23:29 10/14/03 Tue
...of which I am proud to call myself a member, call them YAXIs
(Yet Another Xena Inconsistency).
However, the god-killing thing was one that they at least tried
to keep consistent for a while. Your first example--do you have
any idea which episode it's from? Because I have no memory of
that happening. After being resurrected, Xena's "dark"
Chakram was joined with the "light" Chakram to create
the "new" Chakram, to balance her darkness and light,
but I don't recall it ever being able to kill gods until Xena
was granted that power herself by the god of Eli, the goal being
that Xena would kill all the ancient gods and make way for monotheism.
This plot didn't pan out too well, though, because of viewer dissatisfaction,
so quite a few gods were spared, and even new ones we hadn't known
before crop up in the last season, which adds to my theory that,
in the sixth season, the writers realized they'd written themselves
into a wall, so get out of it by paying even less attention to
continuity than they used to.
But, again, the only 2 things, in most episodes at least, that
could kill gods were the Hind's Blood and Super-God-Killing-Xena.
"Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" predated this continuity
rule, though.
Rob
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Repeating my Xena/Buffy comparison
from months past... -- cjl, 20:55:35 10/13/03 Mon
Settings: Fictionalized version of Ancient Greece (Xena) and slightly
exaggerated version of modern SoCal (Buffy).
Buffy = Xena
Buffy's Scythe = Xena's Chakram
Willow = Gabrielle
Xander = Joxer
Angel = Hercules
Spike = Ares
Cordy = Aphrodite
Faith = Callisto Mark I (evil woman warrior/shadow self)
Glory = Callisto Mark II (raging loony demi-goddess)
Dawn = Eve
Dark Willow = Hope
Joyce & Hank Summers = Xena's Mom and Dad
If I thought about this, I could probably list a few more. But,
looking it over, all I can say is--
For God's sake, will somebody PLEASE bring Hudson Leick (Callisto)
over to ANGEL? She said--in print--that she wants to be on the
series! (She's the psychopathic blonde of Angelus' dreams!)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Joyce & Hank Summers=Xena's
Mom and Dad? -- Rob, 23:19:33 10/13/03 Mon
Don't seem to recall the episode where Joyce revealed that she'd
killed Hank the night that he tried to take the young Buffy to
be sacrificed! ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Whoops. Forgot about
that episode. -- cjl, 09:13:53 10/14/03 Tue
But wouldn't it have been cool if Joyce had Hank buried in the
basement? (That would have really put the "dead" in
deadbeat dad....)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! Damn the
writers' missed opportunities! -- Rob, 09:24:46 10/14/03
Tue
[> [> [> [> [> Allow me to add -- Sofdog,
21:19:41 10/13/03 Mon
Another fume
[> [> [> [> [> [> Damn Voynak! -- Sofdog,
11:00:04 10/14/03 Tue
For the third time I will try to add that each show referenced
the other. Some play critics slip out of show and suggest catching
"Bufficus the Bacchae Slayer" down the street. And in
Buffy's "Halloween" Willow laments that Buffy didn't
dress up as Xena before being turned into her costume character.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, yeah, I forgot
about that! That line was in 'The Play's the Thing,' I believe.
-- Rob, 18:30:22 10/14/03 Tue
Spingle -- skeeve, 08:43:54 10/13/03 Mon
"I'm his date." -- Spike about Angel
Replies:
[> How about Spangle? Spackle? Ankh? Spittle? Spake?
-- shambleau, 10:33:20 10/13/03 Mon
[> [> I've been a Spangel shipper for years...lets get
these guys groiny already! -- Nino,
12:29:41 10/13/03 Mon
[> Oops, I meant Spingel -- skeeve, 14:39:48 10/13/03
Mon
[> Spinkle. Or possibly Spankle. -- leslie, 19:47:06
10/13/03 Mon
[> [> no, i think spankle is... -- anom, 21:19:25
10/13/03 Mon
...Angel & Spanky. @>)
[> Not Spangel? (NT) -- Claudia, 10:13:06 10/14/03
Tue
[> [> yes, i agree that Spangel is the way to go
-- Nino, 18:33:31
10/14/03 Tue
OT: What is in a name? -- Lunasea, 11:11:09
10/13/03 Mon
that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
I just happen to think that Lunasea is prettier, so once again
I dress myself in her beautiful petals.
Replies:
[> Re: OT: What is in a name? -- Deacon, 13:50:18
10/13/03 Mon
I agree, Lunasea is a prettier name.
[> [> Thankee much -- Lunasea, 14:16:14 10/13/03
Mon
And for those that don't know, I used to be known as Diana.
[> [> [> name game -- Miyu tVP, 10:39:41 10/14/03
Tue
The goddess "Diana" in Greco-Roman mythology was promised
to be the bearer of many names.
We've got:
Diana
Artemis
Luna
Selene
Hecate
Phoebe...
and I'm sure there are many more I'm forgetting.
So I think it's perfectly fitting to swap names!
:)
[> Tis a beautiful name, my fair maiden -- Giles, 17:32:16
10/13/03 Mon
And dont let anyone talk you out of using it
Great News For Alyson - but I'm depressed
-- Dochawk, 16:05:22 10/13/03 Mon
Hannigan Charms New Hubby
2 hours, 25 minutes ago
By Lia Haberman
Buffy's former spell-wielding sidekick has finally come into her
own. Alyson Hannigan married her longtime beau,
Angel's Alexis Denisof (news), this weekend,E News Live has confirmed.
On top of that, she's just inked a deal with NBC to star in her
own sitcom, the network confirmed Monday. (Beats a five-piece
place setting off the registry.)
No details on the Hannigan-Denisof nuptials were released, but
it's the first marriage for both. Denisof proposed last January
while winsome twosome were visiting California's wine country.
The union was a long time coming. Though he and Hannigan originally
met on the set of Buffy the Vampire Slayer during the 1999-2000
season, the two didn't become an item right away.
"Actually, I had a crush on him from the moment he showed
up on set, and he was the good one who said, 'Not while we're
working together...'blah blah blah, whatever," Hannigan once
told E! Online.
"So we became friends for a couple of years, and I was dating
somebodyelse [Marilyn Manson drummer Ginger Fish (news)], and
when that didn't work out, he was on Angel and we just started
dating. We had always had a very flirty relationship."
Hannigan, who spent seven years on Buffy until the show ended
last season, is unlikely to take an extended honeymoon with her
new NBC gig looming.
The thesp, who expressed interest in headlining a comedy pilot
while promoting American Wedding this August, was pursued by several
networks but ultimately signed a talent holding and development
deal with the Peacock.
NBC development prez Kevin Reilly told Variety Hannigan is "a
great personality for us to anchor a comedy with."
"America watched her grow up on these movies, and she's come
into her own as a young woman," said Reilly. "She's
beautiful and funny and really charming. And she exudes a great
spark comedically."
Already, NBC and the actress are meeting with potential writers
to hear pitches. Per the deal, if nothing comes along by pilot
casting season next spring, the red head is free to enter into
negotiations with other networks for fall 2004.
The net is inking similar holding deals with much of its talent
according to Reilly, offering actors more flexibility and less
financial responsibility for the network.
"It's win-win for everybody," he said.
In the meantime, Hannigan will crack funny for That '70s Show.
The actress is joining the Fox sitcom for a multi-episode arc
this season. She'll play a new recruit at the police academy where
Ashton Kutcher(news)'s character, Kelso, enrolls.
Hannigan, who got her start in 1988's My Stepmother is an Alien
opposite fellow Scooby Seth Green (news), has starred in all three
American Pie movies as band camp geek turned leading sexpot Michelle
Flaherty.
Denisof, who continues to play Angel's brainy buddy Wesley
Wyndham-Pryce, previously starred in Disney's video sequel Tarzan
& Jane and the 1995 Sean Connery (news)-Richard Gere (news) Camelotflick
First Knight. He and Hannigan also costarred in last year's straight-to-video
dud Rip It Off.
Replies:
[> Depressed? Catatonia seems more appropriate. Me too.
-- Sophist, 16:12:37 10/13/03 Mon
[> Well, I'm gonna say 'Congradulations' to both of them
myself -- Masq, 16:43:44 10/13/03 Mon
A marraige made in the Buffyverse!
[> I feel strangely depressed, I guess I kinda always felt
She was Amber Bensons only. -- Giles,
17:05:14 10/13/03 Mon
[> Awww. They looked so happy & cute together. -- deeva,
17:20:18 10/13/03 Mon
[> Hooray for Aly and Alexis! -- cjl, 17:25:57 10/13/03
Mon
May the happy couple and their spawn rule Hollywood for the next
century.
Why is everybody so depressed? Aly is happy. Alexis is happy.
Alexis and ANGEL look like they might make it to Season 6, and
we're gonna get a weekly dose of Aly on NBC! (Who knows--if the
PTB are kind to us, the sitcom MIGHT NOT SUCK.)
Are we upset that Aly is married and out of circulation? Of course
we are. But it's not like I had a shot, anyway....
[> [> Hey! Who says you didn't have a shot? -- dub
17:34:30 10/13/03 Mon
I happen to think you look very fetching in the Beanie of Wisdom...
;o)
[> Right there with you, buddy :) -- Earl
Allison, 04:18:21 10/14/03 Tue
Dochawk,
I feel your pain. Still, may they be happy and stay together.
It'll be nice to see AH on another show, although I've got mixed
feelings on seeing AtS continue ... happy thoughts! Happy thoughts!
Scratch another one off the "never had a chance, anyway"
list :)
Ah well, there's still Eliza Dushku and Emily Perkins left
to swoon over :)
Take it and run.
[> There's never an aggrieved demon about... -- Celebaelin,
07:20:42 10/14/03 Tue
...no matter how hard you try. I used Cockatrice feet, Genie blood,
Behemoth ichor - nothing, not one single solitary mishap. You'd
think with all that at least the cake would have been a bit dry.
Best wishes to the happy couple.
Feminism and the future of ATS (no spoilers beyond
5.1) -- Cigarette Smoking Vampire, 03:23:06 10/14/03 Tue
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how (if at all) JW's
feminism might color ATS this season. I am of the opinion that
Joss was never fully focused on the show and that Greenwalt, Minear,
and Bell were the captains of the ship in the past. Assuming that
the "Firefly" film doesn't monopolize his time, I assume
that Joss will be more involved with ATS this season.
ATS has never seemed particularly feminist to me, so if JW throws
himself into it wholeheartedly, I wonder if we will see any changes.
As season five begins, the show has lost Lilah (who IMHO was more
empowered than Buffy could ever hope to be), Cordy (who also seemed
more empowered than Buffy but ended up being used by higher powers
and turned into either a victim or murderer depending on one's
interpretation of season four), Gwen, and Darla seem to be gone
permanently. Fred (who is strong but does not seem destined for
anything more than a minor role on the show), Harmony (who may
be nothing more than comedic relief), and Eve (who knows what
to think of her at this point?) are now the only female characters
on the show.
So will Whedon's brand of feminism (which I myself always found
alarmingly simplistic yet contradictory) have any effect on the
show? Or did he get all that he wanted to say on the matter out
of the way when he was on his soap box in season seven of BtVS?
I am by no means an expert on feminism (I am pretty much just
a run of the mill Libertarian), but I know that many here are
very knowledgeable on the topic. Any thoughts on how feminism
may relate to the "revamped" ATS would be greatly appreciated.
Replies:
[> Feminism does not equal females (spoilers 5.01) --
Lunasea, 06:40:58 10/14/03 Tue
If it did, how much relevance would it have to a guy? Joss' feminism
is a correction to the Patriarchy. This Patriarchy isn't just
harming women, but the men in it as well. A show about a guy that
is trying to find his humanity is completely in line with Joss'
brand of feminism. "Conviction" had a lot in common
with "Judgment" especially how important mercy and flexibility
are.
Fred will be a central character on the show. I don't know why
you think she is going to have a minor role. There is also Spike,
the girl with a penis. Lilah wasn't remotely empowered. There
is more to Joss' brand of feminism than that kind of power. Real
empowerment means doing something with that power, something empowering.
Power for power's sake means little if anything in the Buffyverse.
Lilah is still in the service of the SP. How is that power?
And don't forget Faith. Her empowerment didn't come with the Scythe
spell on BtVS, but with Angel in "Orpheus." When Tru
Calling fails through, I wouldn't be surprised if she does make
an appearance. Her story fits Angel better than it did BtVS.
The following is a repost. Joss' brand of feminism is best illustrated
in OMWF in the song "I've Got a Theory."
I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I just wanted
to share something I noticed. The flow of the song "I've
Got a Theory" is probably the best example in the Buffyverse
of how Joss views society. Not his perfect society, but the reality
of how it is.
It opens with Giles, representing the Patriarchy singing first.
His first reaction is what he knows, demons. "That it's a
demon." He goes on a bit further, "A dancing demon."
To his logical mind that sound ridiculous. Demons don't dance
and he dismisses it. The thing to remember is that Giles is right.
It is a dancing demon. Giles not only represents the Patriarchy,
but someone who is limited/hurt by it This won't be resolved until
the finale of the series.
Then we go to Willow, who really doesn't want to sing (at least
AH doesn't). Her inclusion is very important. No one else could
have said those lines, so poor AH had to sing a bit. The Patriarchy
is unable to solve the problem, so what happens? Something that
happened in the first season is remembered "some kid is dreamin.'"
When we don't know what to do, we often do fall back to the past.
Willow's image of herself, which is based on her past, is going
to seriously mess her up this season and the next. This too really
isn't resolved until the finale of the series.
Next comes Everyman Xander. He is concerned with the practical
"we should work this out." That is importantly followed
by the trio of Willow/Anya/Tara who are concerned with feelings
"It's getting eerie. What's this cheery singing all about."
The rhyme scheme paired Giles' patriarchy with Willow's reliance
on the past. It also pairs the male Xander with the female trio.
What follows is probably the best statement of what Joss believes
and why he is a feminist. Everyman Xander comes after the pairs
are set up. There is no rhyming scheme and he is paired with no
one really. His first reaction, his gut reaction is "It could
be witches. Some evil witches." Joss has been raised in the
Patriarchy. No matter how much he carries the banner of Feminism
high, his gut reaction is still "It could be witches. Some
evil witches." In "Hush" when he needs 2 new characters
to be terrified of the Gentlemen, he relies on Tara and Olivia.
As much as he hated seeing the blond victim in the alley in horror
movies and empowered her, when he needed victims, he turned to
two women.
Then Xander sees Tara and Willow's reaction and changes his statement.
"Which is ridiculous 'cause witches they were persecuted
wicca good and love the earth and women power." Joss' feminism
is a corrective measure to counter the Patriarchy that causes
him to think "some evil witches." We have seen an evil
witch, again in that first season. Witches aren't all wiccan good.
Still, Xander feels bad and so now "and I'll be over here."
The music drops off after "ridiculous" and comes back
after he leaves. Xander has been taken out of the song by trying
to correct the Patriarchy's view. Could there be a more succinct
statement of the male feminist's dilemma which includes why he
is a feminist in the first place?
Then we get Anya. Anya's reason is her biggest fear. She too doesn't
rhyme with any one. Our fears separate us. It is simply stated.
It sounds completely logical to her. The others look at her weird.
To the audience, it is a ridiculous answer, but often our fears
are completely rational to us, but to others aren't.
Tara tries to speak. She is almost the last person to give her
idea and speaks quietly. She can barely be heard. We don't get
to hear her. Before Anya's fear was calmly stated and fit with
the melody. Now it overcomes her and Tara doesn't get a chance
to be heard. Instead the music changes to a driving rock beat.
She tries to rationalize her fear, giving us ridiculous reasons
why "Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes."
She is incredibly insistent that "Bunnies, bunnies, It must
be bunnies," but then the melody returns and she ditches
that answer for an equally ridiculous one "Or maybe midgets."
Fear tends to be rather irrational and can grip us one minute
and cause us to do wild things. Then just as quickly, it leaves.
Think of the mob mentality that follows national tragedies. It
grips us and then just goes away.
Fear drowned out the feminine represented by Tara and Tara doesn't
reassert herself. Earlier we had Xander - male Willow/Tara/Anya
- female. The fear of Anya drowned out Tara, so next to sing is
poor Willow. She goes over to Giles and opens a book. "we
should work this fast." Tara couldn't to that and neither
could Anya. Willow is representing the female here and she is
trying to work with Giles. When this happens, the next line is
a duet between Giles and Willow who are focused on the problem
"Because it clearly could get serious before it's passed."
They are right.
Then enter in Buffy. The music changes as Buffy rallies the troops.
Buffy isn't concerned about the current problem. She is really
the everyperson in this song. How many of us try to actually solve
problems (I'll give you a hint we live in a REPRESENTATIVE democracy)?
They just get solved somehow.
Everyone, but Giles joins in the song. Eventually he does join,
but as the descant voice, not singing with the others. The song
ends with they can face anything "except for bunnies."
Fear is even stronger than together.
That song is more than just exposition to music. The flow of it
shows stuff not only about each character and their motivation,
but the flow of it from one character to another, shows how Joss
sees society, most importantly, his/Xander's view.
This is completely fits what Angel the series has done. Joss'
name still comes at the end and as long as that happens, what
comes before it will be in line with what he believes.
[> [> Re: Feminism does not equal females (spoilers 5.01)
-- Cigarette Smoking Vampire, 23:52:53 10/14/03 Tue
"Lilah wasn't remotely empowered. There is more to Joss'
brand of feminism than that kind of power. Real empowerment means
doing something with that power, something empowering. Power for
power's sake means little if anything in the Buffyverse. Lilah
is still in the service of the SP. How is that power?"
I have to completely disagree regarding Lilah. For one thing,
she wasn't "chosen" or handed her power by some mystical
force. She succeeded in law school and had to claw her way up
to the top of W&H without the benefit of any supernatural superpowers.
All along they seemed to want to hand the keys of the kingdom
to Lindsay, but Lilah kept a level head while he flaked out.
I don't see how basically taking over the L.A. branch of W&H as
Lilah did is not empowering. Sure, she was still in service of
the Senior Partners. But I don't think that anyone needs to be
self employed in order to be empowered. Otherwise, most women
are not empowered. Her goals seemed to be in line with that of
the Senior Partners. Had she not been murdered, I imagine she
would have continued to work toward whatever goal that they had
in mind. I am not of the belief that having morally good goals
is a necessary condition of empowerment, so I don't think it matters
what goal Lilah had in terms of morality.
Getting back to feminism and AtS, the reason I am wondering about
it is that the men on AtS at present do not seem to be the type
of males that Joss is comfortable with. They are neither misogynistic
men perpetuating some sort of dark patriarchy (his "bad"
guys) nor "neutered" males (his "good" guys).
[> Nor tree pretty. Patriarchy bad (spoilers Angel S 5)
-- sdev, 14:59:22 10/14/03 Tue
I don't know how involved JW will be in AtS. Isn't he working
on a Firefly movie?
"So will Whedon's brand of feminism (which I myself always
found alarmingly simplistic yet contradictory) have any effect
on the show?"
I agree with you here. I see feminism more as psycho-social than
socio-political.
It remains to be seen if there are additional female characters
added to the cast and what is done with the new character of Eve.
I never saw much of a feminist theme, even the soapbox style,
on AtS.
Buffy vs Fred -- JBone,
05:14:40 10/14/03 Tue
Buffy?
http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html
I should have mentioned yesterday that the tiebreakers this week
are the same as the first week: Dub, Rob and d'Herblay. Not that
I am as hopeful that a tie may be possible. There's no way Spike's
fans will stop drinking the peroxide kool-aid now. Post comments
here or at the voting site. I may or may not have yesterday's
results up later.
Replies:
[> Re: Buffy vs Fred -- Celebaelin, 05:49:48 10/14/03
Tue
What can you say, Fred has come a long way but no show is called
'Fred the Texan Cow Girl', and with good reason. The match-up
itself involves Buffy switching into bitca mode and it's all rather
unseemly really. Fred tries not to loose her head but she's unable
to keep the upper hand when Buffy decides to swallow her pride
and just unwinds one to the larynx. Fortunately Buffy kept the
power within acceptable limits so it's not a lethal punch but
Fred isn't exactly 'chatty' for no inconsiderable period of time.
[> Re: Buffy vs Fred -- MaeveRigan, 06:01:40 10/14/03
Tue
Why am I even writing about this? Fred and Buffy go into this
round knowing it's just a formality. So they're both formal about
it. They go through the rounds with various weapons--Fred's been
practicing since she joined AI and she's not half bad, but she
knows she hasn't got a chance against a Slayer. Buffy wins every
bout without breaking a sweat, and she's not all superior or anything--it's
just what she does. She didn't ask for this and she certainly
didn't ask to meet Fred--who kinda reminds her of Willow--in a
fight rather than in friendship. After it's all over, they go
out for coffee, really get to know each other, trading funny stories
about Angel.
[> skinny short girl vs. skinnier taller girl -- deeva,
09:08:09 10/14/03 Tue
This is a joke, right? How in the world did we get here? As much
as I like an underdog, I'd like it to be somewhat plausible that
the underdog could win. This is no the case. Harsh, I may be but
it's true. Fred has proven before that has the cajones to do things
when need be. But that won't be enough to go up against Buffy.
But then again maybe Buffy might make a fashion misstep in her
choice of fightwear and dons something that impeds her, like one
of those super long bell sleeved blouses or some such thing. She
might even go down rueing the day she saw the cute top that tangles
her arms. Nah. Buffy takes it.
[> Buffy, Fred. Fred, Buffy. (Fred? Commence babbling.)
-- cjl, 09:57:26 10/14/03 Tue
FRED: Oh my gosh! It's such a thrill to FINALLY meet you! Kinda
feel like I already know you, because Angel and Wesley just tell
me all these stories about you and how you're just this incredible,
powerful woman who saves the world without losing her sense of
humanity and about how you pretty much sucked the life out of
the Watchers Council and the massive patriarchal conspiracy that
has held back women for millennia, and believe me, y'all have
no idea how deep this stuff goes, because I've been reading these
files from the Wolfram and Hart historical library, and your eyes
would bug out of your head if you--
[Buffy gives Fred a "love tap" and knocks her unconscious.]
BUFFY: Nice girl. Talks too much.
[> [> exactly -- manwitch, 15:14:58 10/14/03 Tue
[> Brains vs. Brawn -- Apophis, 10:51:12 10/14/03
Tue
Not to say that Buffy isn't smart, but she ain't churning out
deathrays or anything. Anyway, HEY! I finally get to be on the
winning side for the first time in weeks! Fred comes at Buffy
with sonic chainsaws, laser cannons, super-bouncy killer rubber
balls, and robot sharks, but just can't put her down. Buffy runs
the gauntlet and gently puts Fred out with a nerve pinch.
OR...
They settle things with a playful pillow fight. In the first scenario,
Buffy wins. In the second, we all do. Either way, it's Buffy who's
advancing.
[> Buffy -- Rochefort, 11:31:22 10/14/03 Tue
I love Buffy, and I miss her. Spike won't even come close. And
I don't even WATCH Angel, and I'd say something lame about Fred
being a boy's name, but I dated a girl named Fred and she was
hot.
Rochefort
[> Re: Buffy vs Fred -- punkinpuss, 11:31:53 10/14/03
Tue
Well, I know Buffy's gonna win anyway, but I had to vote for Fred.
I'd rather pretend that brains do stand a chance against brawn.
Unless they're fighting for that last jelly donut, which both
of them could really use!
[> Re: Buffy vs Fred -- s'kat, 13:00:12 10/14/03
Tue
Fred and Buffy meet. Fred looks at her and says - "you're
the girl with the funny name, right?" Buffy nods. "The
slayer?" Buffy nods, gearing herself up. Fred smiles. Begins
to chant. A portal opens up. And Buffy is gone.
Fred closes the book and goes back to what she was doing before
Buffy showed. When asked where she sent her? Fred responds - to
a place where she can be happy.
Fred wins. (As is in keeping with my alphabet rule and my W rule,
vote for W's). Winnifred over Buffy.
[> [> Re: Buffy vs Fred -- LittleBit, 13:20:32
10/14/03 Tue
So-o-o-o... if Winifred should defeat Buffy and the final matchup
is Winifred vs. Spike, you'll be voting for Winifred, right? ;-)
[> [> [> Nope -- s'kat, 13:50:10 10/14/03 Tue
William is Spike's true name, remember?
So, it's Winnifred vs. William?
Have to take it to the next step:
Fred vs. Spike = Spike wins. ;-)
Or Burkle vs. Spike? Spike wins.
No problemo.
Not that I foresee it being a problem, it would take an act of
god for Buffy to lose this subjective contest.
[> No contest, Buffy, it's always been about Buffy, even
after the series is over. -- Rufus, 13:41:43 10/14/03 Tue
[> how did fred even get this far? -- btvsk8, 14:52:08
10/14/03 Tue
[> [> Determination, and a good helping of insanity--oh,
and cute hair. -- Alison, 15:02:00 10/14/03 Tue
[> [> [> Is there any doubt? Buffy wins with one hand
tied behind her back. Poor Fred. -- jane, 17:41:00 10/14/03
Tue
Vampire Reproduction -- Eli, 05:16:14
10/14/03 Tue
Any thoughts as to why Spike never wanted to vamp Buffy?
As far as I know, vampires reproduce by draining their victims
of blood and then giving their victims their blood. Wouldn't Spike
want to have a child with Buffy? A vamped Buffy?
If a vampire loves a human, wouldn't that vampire want to preserve
that relationship? And the best way to preserve it would be to
turn the human into a vampire. Vamped William after a few days
must have asked Drusilla about the facts of the un-life, for William
turned his mother into a vampire. Perhaps that very experience
made William/Spike realize that the vampire and human are not
actually the same. A vampire can turn the human into one, but
what the newly turned vampire will be is unknown.
Does anyone know the name of the episode where Angel battles a
vampire that is indestructible? Angel kills his lover in the beginning
and to seek revenge this vampire makes a deal to be indestructible
for a short time in order to revenge his love?
Thanks
Replies:
[> Re: Vampire Reproduction -- CW, 06:28:45 10/14/03
Tue
Spike is the last vampire in the world who'd try that. After having
his own vamped mother turn against him, I don't think he'd consider
such a thing with his lady love.
Dracula, on the other hand, did seem to have eternal perfect girlfriend
on his mind when he came to Sunnydale. The trial run didn't turn
out well for him either.
[> [> Heartthrob was the AtS episode. -- Arethusa,
06:33:54 10/14/03 Tue
[> Re: Vampire Reproduction -- Cigarette Smoking Vampire,
06:39:44 10/14/03 Tue
I always got the impression that Spike loved Buffy for who she
was. Her morality and goodness always seemed to be attractive
qualities for him and they would likely be gone if she were sired.
And even though Spike seemingly preferred being a vampire to being
human, he did like the fact that Buffy was living (as he sung
in OMWF).
'It is well'-
isn't it? (Angel Odyssey 5.2)(sp5.2) -- Tchaikovsky, 08:32:26
10/14/03 Tue
The old man comes out on the hill
and looks down to recall earlier days
in the valley. He sees the stream shine,
the church stand, hears the litter of
children's voices. A chill in the flesh
tells him that death is not far off
now: it is the shadow under the great boughs
of life. His garden has herbs growing.
The kestrel goes by with fresh prey
in its claws. The wind scatters the scent
of wild beans. The tractor operates
on the earth's body. His grandson is there
ploughing; his young wife fetches him
cakes and tea and a dark smile. It is well.
RS Thomas
"Who you gonna call? God, that phrase is never gonna be usable
again."
-Spike in 'The Killer in Me'. And, in light of this week's happenings,
very true.
Hello everyone.
That poem above is one of my very favourites. I love the way it
deals with the idea of acceptance of death. It's an utterly beautiful
vision. It shows how, even in the nidst of life continuing, death
can be a fulfilment of that life. I'm transported by his wife's
'dark smile'. Are we merely supposed to know that she has dark
hair, or is it dark in the sense of being complex- a happiness,
a rightness tinged by loss. And those three final words: 'It is
well', say so much more about humanity than much more complicated,
knowingly poetic words might do. Acceptance of the beauty of death,
the shadow of the monument. His legacy, his nameless legacy, is
painted all over the scene. His garden has herbs growing
the abundance, the flavour of life.His grandson is there, ploughing.
This isn't some Marlovian country idyll- work continues, and is
hard, but somewhat gratifying, and continues through generations.
Hold that thought.
5.2- 'Just Rewards'
I didn't much mind Just Rewards. It was pretty good for
a Fury episode, and was laced through with a certain solidity
which we've come to expect from him. He does what is needed, he
just doesn't pirouette as much as the others.
The centrepiece was not Spike, but Spike-Angel, (and just occasionally,
Spike/Angel). From Angel's foreboding 'Spike' to Spike's own plaintive
'Help me' at the end of the episode, there was a parallel being
drawn rather than an anti-parallel. The line that sent shivers
up my spine was actually the one time that Angel got, supposed
righteously, angry with Spike:
SPIKE: You are, ya ponce! You're my problem. You got it too
good. You're king of a 30-floor castle, with all the cars, comfort,
power, and glory you could ever want, and here I save the world,
throw myself on the proverbial hand grenade for love, honor, and
all the right reasons, and what do I get? Bloody well toasted
and ghosted is what I get, isn't it? It's just not fair.
ANGEL: Fair?! You asked for a soul! I didn't. It almost killed
me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite
remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you
were fine! What's fair about that?!
As well as a playful riff on the use of Spike in Season Seven,
and possibly again with some of Fury's slightly renegade opinions
on Spike hidden under the surface, Angel shows that he has a lot
of problems with Spike's story as contrasted to his own. We are
of course going to see Spike as the doubter, the person who sees
Angel's corporate business as dangerously morally ambiguous, who
worries about the purities of Angel's motives. What is more interesting
to a long-time viewer, is not how Spike instils doubts in Angel's
mind, but how Angel instils doubts in Spike. The way I see it,
Spike's snarkiness, his arguments that the supposedly pure Champion
his his Journey tinged with darkness, is not all that different
a narrative trick from Buffy in Season Six.
Spike's Uncomfortable Teller of Truth mantle melts, thaws and
resolves itself into a man who creates stories. Stories of himself,
and stories of others. The posh poet dressed as the working class
rebel. The Slayer Killer as the noble lover. The murderer saving
the world. And correspondingly, we have the Slayers with Death
Wishes, the mother who never cared about her son, the Gang who
don't tell Spike about resurrecting Buffy because they thought
he wouldn't want to kill her again. Not all these stories are
the right ones- they are elaborate narratives constructed from
Spike's perspective. 'Fool For Love' the instigator of this genius
of overlapping stories, was told by Spike with one of the prime
ideas being a genuine falsehood. It turns out neither Nikki nor
Buffy want to die.
Here on Angel, Spike can and will do this again. But it is how
the dynamism of his grand-sire, lover and adversary affects him
which is the new story. Spike will go on making up beautifully
tangled false meta-narrations on what's going on, and sometimes
they will contain a shard of truth that will be useful. But how
does the World-Saving Hero adjust to the world of moral ambiguity
and Wolfram and Hart.
First of all, it is crucially important to implement some reason
whereby Spike will be affected by others' actions. As the trickster,
the Chaos element who was more incredibly dangerous than he had
ever been redemptive of others, there needed to be a plot element
both tying him down to Wolfram and Hart, and making him play to
Angel's rules. We get the section where Spike claims [admittedly
acting] that he will be head of Wolfram and Hart, and things will
happen his way, with his cars. A dig at people worried about Spike's
role in Season Five, certainly. But also the acknowledgement that
Spike has never been the person in charge. His (faux) vision sounds
faintly ludicrous. We must remember that Spike has never been
the main player, and has always been hampered by other people's
rules.
For Spike's ghostly incorporeality is certainly not a new idea.
Running throughout the narrative of Buffy is the interaction
in Spike's character between the dynamic, physical warrior and
the verbal, creative artist. And this element is always prepetuated
by the writers. Spike is, in one way or another, crippled from
normal vampire staus almost throughout the series. After his initial
forays as an admittedly charismatic Monster of the Week, he is
put in a wheelchair to let the physical incapacity play against
Angelus and his own lust for violence. Then in Season Three, he
is incapacitated by his state, having been left by Drusilla. In
Season Four, he is immediately chipped, starting the longest running
era, that where his violence is restricted to demons, and thus
allowing him to develop a flimsy corruptible understanding of
a moral compass, of what it is to be human. By the time this is
removed, we have him both struggling under other personas, (the
William of 'Beneath You', the warrior of 'Get it Done'), and finally
trying to understand what it is to have a soul.
So Spike's incorporeality is not much different from his earlier
neutering or incapacity as a plot device to keep the creative,
loquacious artist in Spike in conflict with the physical anarchist
rebel. Here again, he is tied to Angel by the amulet, and he is
unable to do anything much about Wolfram and Hart's modus operandi
because of his lack of substance. This will continue to be useful
for the writers. But what Spike, a symbol of chaos, wants, is
the ability to inflict chaos again. And so, he takes Hainsley's
offer...
Except that he doesn't. In a twist vaguely reminiscent of 'Enemies',
but blurred and therefore significantly less elegant, we actually
have Spike apparently working against Angel for his own selfish
purposes, but in reality working to get rid of Hainsley. And then,
in an excellent description of the tension in their working relationship,
Spike can't refuse a few more blows for Angel.
So the audience is left to wonder- just what is Spike's motive,
and why doesn't he either re-gain a body in dastardly fashion
with Hainsley, or, as he claims to Angel, die altogether?
For me, the most moving section of the episode is a line that
didn't even turn out to be real. When Spike comes to Angel, and,
in a moment of calm reflection, they talk about what Spike's role
is. He can't escape, but he can't do anything, as he doesn't have
a body. And so, finished, allowed the rest he called out for to
Buffy in 'Beneath You', he is suddenly yanked back. And Spike's
'Eternal Rest' is utterly compromised. His return, the bleakness
of it, is an interesting parallel to Buffy in 'Bargaining'. Now
he understands a little of how it is to be resurrected after saving
the world. There's even the haging on, largely unwanted love interest-
Harmony, who inadvertently sums up Spike's character: 'A leopard
doesn't change its stripes'. Spike, despite the multitude of apparent
changes, has only changed his coat once, when he received his
soul. Now, as two of a kind with Angel, he is one thing that has
properties of another, as vampire with a soul, a leopard with
stripes. But now with this extra layer, this ghostliness, he appears,
perhaps, ready for rest. He saves the world, he gets his Just
Reward. Sleep. But apparently not so. He is ready for death.
In the moment we are title-carded at the beginning of the episode,
that scene back in Sunnydale in 'Chosen', where Spike wants
to see how it ends we see a Spike surveying the landscape.
The dying uber-vamps. The monster-man, not man-monster, that Buffy
has made him. Something better. There's time for survival for
a family he has just begun to admire apart from Buffy, but also
there's the soulful shaft of sunlight, burning him up. There's
Buffy to carry on the work; hard as it will be, and the grandfather
ploughing the field in Los Angeles. But for him- 'It is well'.
Then torn back, he inhabits what he believes slightly less literally
than Buffy might just be hell. Angel in charge of a conglomerate.
And he's ready to face death again. Death as escape? Death as
accepting life's continuation. We shall never know.
We'll never know because it wasn't genuinely part of the plan.
The plan was tricksy, and slightly devalued the earlier moments.
And then, at the end of the episode, we return to something much
more Old Testament.
The Biblical themes in Angel have always been more Old Testament
than new, and when we're told at one point 'We should probably
avoid "An eye for an eye" escalation', we chuckle knowingly
about how the New Testament absolves the Old, and Spike takes
a look at Angel's blood and thunder and has words to say. But
at the end, it seems like Spike is not so much redeemed after
all. The place he would go to is not the place heroes go.
He feels himself slipping towards Hell, and he is doomed for a
certain time to walk the earth. But rather than telling fearsomely
of his untimely death, he is instead begging for more chance to
survive, to try to live a good life. He is edging towards Angel's
Epiphany. Those three weeks aren't what Angel's 100 years was
about, and Spike still yearns at least for redemption, if not
for atonement. And so, as Fred looks on, confused and largely
mute, Spike pleads desperately, not to die, but to live, to stay
here. Then is the time that he might mumble 'It is well'.
Miscellaneousness:
-Wesley is interrupted by Angel after the line. "Maybe Wolfram
and Hart want him here. He may be the one that...". As far
as I'm concerned, that's ME's first ever hint that the shanshu
may not be solely [soul-ly?] Angel's preserve. Perhaps Wesley
wasn't going to say that, but it seemed damn likely as an ever
so quick foreshadowing.
-Issues of control are raised by Hainsley. 'Control: that's all
that anyone really wants.' Of course, Hainsley, the necromancer
believes he has control over the dead, but actually is completely
played by Spike, so his control is less full than he expects it.
Both Angel and Spike's control are crucial in this episode. Spike's
control is all about corporeality, the choice of when to die,
the choice of redemption, the necessity of kinship, and everything
else I've outlined above. Angel's control is something mentioned
by Masq earlier, that of his control over Connor. Yes, it's still
there folks. Angel is repeatedly told off for withholding information
in this episode. He doesn't tell Wesley Spike saved the world.
He deosn't tell Wesley about Spike's soul. He tells them only
a convenient patchwork of lies. And then, with a gloriously philosophical
expression on his face, he is in control as he prepares to kill
Spike's ghost. What's the piece of control, the unilateral decision,
that he still keeps hidden? That decision in 'Home'. Unless I'm
in 'Reading-too-much-into-Irrelevancies' mode, Joss has a theme
he's building up, and 'Home' will indeed be dealt with again.
-Angel seems very flippant about the whole Mercy thing in this
episode. Just sayin'.
-And what about that marvellous cut to the moon? The pale, ghostly
reflection of the sun's light? Not really radiant, but just a
Chinese whisper of light? Look for Spike=moon imagery this Season.
-And so we're back to Harmony, 'preaching to the horse's mouth.'
You know, weird things are happening, and her kind of half-understood
proverbs are really hitting base this Season. There may be more
significance in some of Harmony's comments than she could ever
realise.
Interesting, but I wait with more expectation for Bell DeKnight's
first episodes later this month. Until then, my friends...
TCH
Replies:
[> Very nice, as always. -- Arethusa, 09:12:25 10/14/03
Tue
I think Spike doesn't know he's going to hell-he fears it. (Not
saying you are saying this; just pointing it out.) Beneath
You seemed to reveal that Spike is a believer and is concerned
with his afterlife. And his speech to Fred clearly shows that,
no matter what he said to Angel, he doesn't believe he's atoned
for his sins as a vampire, or achieved redemption. (Which means
he accepts responsibility for what he did in his heart, despite
what he says to others.) He fears he'll be held accountable for
his actions in a final judgement. And he has a pre-20th century
hellfire and brimstone view of damnation. There's a lot of truth
to what he says about Angel, but there's still a big gap between
what Spike says about himself and what he really thinks.
I agree that the Angel's control issues will continue to affect
him.
[> [> Agreed -- s'kat, 13:45:50 10/14/03 Tue
I agree with everything you say here Aresutha, well said. I find
it interesting that people take what Spike says literally, Angel
you can take that way, but not Spike - Spike is all about bravado.
Covering up his own fears. Pretending to be the big bad. And I
think, considering the fact Angelus probably had a hand in creating
that bravado persona - it's not surprising that he would spout
off the way he does to him in person. Spike is all about appearences,
he shows the world one side, while keeping the other part to himself.
Note he doesn't tell anyone where he went when he first disappears.
Fred asks him, but he doesn't really answer.
In his rants to Angel - they are focused more on Angel and how
good Angel has it. Keep in mind Angel was the most evil character
to grace the Buffyverse. He enjoyed what he did and he trained
others to do it. He himself admits this. Spike, of all people,
knows how truly evil Angelus was. Also unlike most of the characters
- Spike saw Angelus in those 100 years prior to Buffy, and he
wasn't Mr. Saint.
But more to the point - I think we need to keep in mind it's Angel's
show - so the rant may in fact be a device to explore Angel's
own issues. It looks like Angel has it pretty good - he appears
to have everything he ever wanted, the Angelus part of him is
probably having a grand old time as well - power, cars, top of
the world...but at what price?
Does Angel really have it as good as Spike says? Or is Spike's
view of being on the brink of hell - an echo of what Angel's current
status truly is? Is Spike acting as
Angel's own conscience, his shadow self in this scene? Is Spike
in his ranting about how he should be able to rest after saving
the world an echo of how Angel feels? And why does Spike disappear
during Angel's rant about having a soul thrust upon him while
Spike chose his, instead of disappearing during his own rant?
Is what causes Spike to disappear, Angel's own self-righteous
denial of what Spike has done, b/c in Angel's view it could diminish
what Angel did? (Not that it does necessarily - just that Angel
may fear it does ?)
[> [> [> Re: Agreed -- Arethusa, 07:14:58 10/15/03
Wed
Thanks.
Spike certainly seems like Angel's shadow here, saying what Angel
might think but won't say. My Primer of Jungian Psychology
says "[T]he shadow is responsible for one's relations with
the same sex. These relations may be either friendly or hostile
depending upon whether the shadow is accepted by the ego and becomes
incorporated harmoniously [ha!] into the psyche, or whether it
is rejected by the ego and banished to the unconscious. Men tend
to project their rejected shadow impulses on other men so that
bad feelings often arise between males." The more Angel represses
his inner nature, the more likely Spike will be to give voice
to it, both as his shadow and as the man who knows him best in
the world and who takes great delight in exposing his hidden motives.
So Spike says what Angel can't bring himself to say-haven't I
done enough? Am I just a pawn, without control over my own life?
It just occurred to me that Harmony might have an important function
in AtS-to expose Spike's hidden side, as Spike exposes Angel's.
She has a habit of blurting out embarrassing facts about him,
such as his grief at losing Drusilla.
I'm not sure why Spike disappears or if the disappearences are
linked to Angel's state of mind. It's possible, since both times
Spike or Angel were talking about Spike saving the world. I'm
still trying to figure out what W&H wanted to happen when they
gave Angel the amulet. If they wanted to use it to control Angel,
than Spike wouldn't be disappearing, unless it was somehow "tuned"
just to hold Angel. Too little information to tell.
[> [> Good point -- Tchaikovsky, 02:21:59 10/15/03
Wed
Re-watching with this in mind, the final scene takes on a much
more powerful, personal angle than the way I took it the first
time.
TCH
[> I'm really enjoying these. -- deeva, 09:19:58
10/14/03 Tue
I could only get through a quarter of it. I've saved it to read
throughout the day. Good work and thanks for posting this!
[> A Vampire Carol (spoilers 5.2) -- Masq, 09:46:12
10/14/03 Tue
So Spike's incorporeality is not much different from his earlier
neutering or incapacity as a plot device to keep the creative,
loquacious artist in Spike in conflict with the physical anarchist
rebel.
That's an interesting observation. Spike has almost always had
some handicap or other on the show. So has Angel (except when
he was unsouled), but Angel's handicap has always remained the
same--the pull of his soul. Spike has gone from wheelchair to
dumped lover to chipped to soul-boy.
and he is doomed for a certain time to walk the earth
I saw the connection to Marley in a Christmas Carol also. In a
post somewhere down the board, I was comparing Spike's current
Limbo to Darla's situation in Season 4 of AtS. It seems to me
that Darla went neither to heaven nor hell after her death in
Lullaby, but instead went to a sort of Limbo where she is making
up for her evil deeds in (un)life by performing good works in
her afterlife. The only evidence we have of this is that she is
sent to try to help her son in his moment of crisis (and she did
try).
I'm not totally convinced that the dark realm that is trying to
drag Spike down is his "punishment". It might simply
be a demon in some demon dimension trying to drag Spike down for
its own nefarious purposes. Either way, it puts the fear of Hell
in Spike, which is a healthy motivator. In my alternative scenario,
souledSpike would have gone to a similar fate I am speculating
Darla went to. Her heroic deed at the end of her (un)life earned
her a place in Limbo, a chance to do in the afterlife what she
did not do in life.
Spike is now getting that chance as well, a "ghost"
on the Earthly plane.
Unless I'm in 'Reading-too-much-into-Irrelevancies' mode, Joss
has a theme he's building up, and 'Home' will indeed be dealt
with again.
Thanks for the affirmation. People who are arguing otherwise are
starting to make me batty. And paranoid.
[> [> Re: A Vampire Carol (spoilers 5.2) -- Ann,
17:14:27 10/14/03 Tue
"I'm not totally convinced that the dark realm that is trying
to drag Spike down is his "punishment". It might simply
be a demon in some demon dimension trying to drag Spike down for
its own nefarious purposes."
I agree Masq. Star Trek Voyager did an episode in which the character
was dying, an alien presence would take over the body and use
it for its own purposes. It would use the remaining consciousness
to feed itself (I think - its been a while). Either way, I agree
that this, despite Spike's fears may be something else. Or maybe
it is just his fear he is looking into. Seeing it clearly and
feeling it. When he sees it we can't see him.
[> [> [> Spike's Bogus Journey - his own personal
hell, dude! -- Dlgood, 17:36:19 10/14/03 Tue
[> [> [> Either way, it puts the fear of hell in him
-- Masq, 18:48:07 10/14/03 Tue
[> [> Literature references -- Tchaikovsky, 02:26:26
10/15/03 Wed
Actually 'doomed for a certain time to walk the earth' is a line
from Hamlet, I,v, and that was what I was riffing on, although
Marley certainly works as well, and I'm never adverse to more
literature parallels!
Interesting other speculations. That kind of metaphysical stuff
always leaves me in a bit of a daze, but what you say could well
be right.
TCH
[> Righteously Angry? -- Claudia, 10:06:38 10/14/03
Tue
[The line that sent shivers up my spine was actually the one time
that Angel got, supposed righteously, angry with Spike:
SPIKE: You are, ya ponce! You're my problem. You got it too good.
You're king of a 30-floor castle, with all the cars, comfort,
power, and glory you could ever want, and here I save the world,
throw myself on the proverbial hand grenade for love, honor, and
all the right reasons, and what do I get? Bloody well toasted
and ghosted is what I get, isn't it? It's just not fair.
ANGEL: Fair?! You asked for a soul! I didn't. It almost killed
me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite
remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you
were fine! What's fair about that?!]
What do you mean by righteously angry at Spike? Maybe both Spike
and Angel had good cause to be angry at their situation - but
not at each other. Besides, I think that Angel had exaggerated
about it taking Spike "three weeks in a basement" to
deal with a new soul. It took Spike a lot longer than that. But
at least Angel has finally admitted openly that he was given his
soul against his will.
[> [> Re: Righteously Angry? -- Dlgood, 11:37:30
10/14/03 Tue
What do you mean by righteously angry at Spike?
--------------
I think what's going here is that Angel is questioning Spike's
credibility and righteousness. Which is to say, that if Spike
is actually trying to be good, he cannot possibly be at such peace
with his past that he cannot give a piss about atonement as he
says.
It's critical to note how Angel has discussed redemption with
Wesley, Faith, Lindsey and Darla in the past - that for the person
struggling to be good, bad deeds constantly eat at us. For it
not to be eating at Spike, as Spike insinuates to Angel in the
earlier scene, reveals him in Angel's mind as either a scoundrel
or a fraud.
---------
But at least Angel has finally admitted openly that he was given
his soul against his will.
---------
I don't see why this is such a big deal. Angel has never claimed
to have intentionally gotten a soul. Rather, to the extent that
he's tried to claim to be trying to be good, he's asked judgement
to be based upon what he's done. He's doesn't ask for any special
dispensation for having a soul or saving the world - and I think
he resents that Spike presumes he "deserves" it. Angel's
various epiphanies led him to see that the reward for doing good
is the opportunity to do more good.
I think that's why he's angry at Spike. He sees him as someone
who wants to rest on his laurels, when Angel has seen that life
is rarely so kind to people who are honestly trying to be heroes.
Doyle, Buffy, Wesley, Cordelia, Connor and Angel himself. And
so on... Basically, on a certain level he sees Spike as a bit
of a naive and childish whiner.
And, while Angel's not entirely correct, he does have a point.
[> [> [> Quote of the week -- Masquerade, 12:05:52
10/14/03 Tue
"the reward for doing good is the opportunity to do more
good."
This has always been Joss' take. It's not really about rewards
and punishments and "paying" for evil deeds with good
deeds like barter. It's not about "redemption" at all,
in any sense of that word.
Life goes on, long after the sins are gone. A person who has truly
changed their ways realizes that they must do good for the
sake of doing good, not because they want to earn their way
into heaven, not to "make up for" the bad they've done
(which they never can; good deeds don't bring back the dead, or
heal long-ago made wounds), but simply because it's the right
thing to do; they don't want to see people suffer.
[> [> [> [> Re: Quote of the week -- Claudia,
12:16:56 10/14/03 Tue
[Life goes on, long after the sins are gone. A person who has
truly changed their ways realizes that they must do good for the
sake of doing good, not because they want to earn their way into
heaven, not to "make up for" the bad they've done (which
they never can; good deeds don't bring back the dead, or heal
long-ago made wounds), but simply because it's the right thing
to do; they don't want to see people suffer.]
Precisely. I don't think that Spike was expecting a reward when
he used that amulet. But he had died and found peace. And that
peace was interrupted when the amulet returned him to ghost-like
form in "Just Reward". I perfectly understood why he
was pissed off and reacted the way he did.
[> [> [> [> [> Found peace? -- Sheri, 14:12:29
10/15/03 Wed
Apologies for not being able to quote directly from the episode,
but I haven't been able to access Psyche's transcripts for ages...
Anyhoo... when Wesley asked Spike what the last thing he remembered,
Spike's reply didn't exactly indicate that he felt like he had
been feeling very peaceful. What was it... skin burning, organs
exploding, eyes melting... ick. Basically, time just kind of stood
still for Spike while he was inside the amulate and there was
no relief from the pain of becoming Mr. Sunshine.
Spike might have been hopeful that once that burning flesh feeling
wore off, he'd get some peace, but who can say whether that would
have ever actually happened?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Try www.buffyworld com
-- Masq, 14:35:26 10/15/03 Wed
They have transcripts and screencaps for both shows. Very useful
resource.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- Sheri,
who's still wondering what happened to Psyche, 15:19:15 10/15/03
Wed
[> [> [> Re: Righteously Angry? -- Claudia, 12:13:16
10/14/03 Tue
[And, while Angel's not entirely correct, he does have a point.]
Does he? I don't think so. I can understand where Spike's anger
came from. It was quite similar to Buffy's, after the latter was
pulled from heaven.
[> [> [> [> Re: Righteously Angry? -- Dlgood,
12:33:17 10/14/03 Tue
Does he? I don't think so.
----------
Again. Angel has lived with his soul for 100 years. He's saved
both the world, and lots of individual people in it, numerous
times. He hasn't been granted peace. Neither have a lot of the
other 'heroes' we've seen. That's the point. By Spike's standards,
Buffy was a far greater hero than he, and she wasn't allowed any
peace. So why would he - what is this "fair" and "deserve"
that Spike's going on about?
Spike's anger isn't just that he didn't get peace - it's that
on a certain level he expects it, feels entitled to it due to
his act of heroism. I'm not saying that Spike shouldn't be frustrated.
But given what he's known and seen, it's a little childish and
naive of him.
So Spike shouldn't be so surprised, and he shouldn't take it so
personally. That's really the point. Spike's entitled to be frustrated.
But it's annoying to see him so whiny about it.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Righteously Angry? --
jane, 17:25:38 10/14/03 Tue
I think Spike has spent much of his unlife going for the grand
gestures, (portraying himself as the Big Bad, larger than life
villain etc.) This points to his mindset about redemption; the
great, heroic act of saving the world by sacrificing himself should
ensure his place in heaven. I don't think he understands that
it might be the action of doing good for good's sake that makes
the difference. That probably seems way too mundane a path for
a hero to take. No wonder he's cranky about it all! I'm guessing
he's got some interesting lessons coming up.
[> [> There is a typo there -- Tchaikovsky, 02:19:11
10/15/03 Wed
That should be-
The line that sent shivers up my spine was actually the one
time that Angel got, supposedly righteously, angry with Spike
Rather than 'supposed'. In any case, I think it's clear from my
arguments that I don't believe either are entirely in the right,
and I have a mild suspicion that you're arguing against something
I never wrote.
TCH
[> [> [> Actually... -- Tchaikovsky, 05:05:55
10/15/03 Wed
With 'supposed' in, it's still clear that I'm not claiming that
Angel was 'righteously angry', only that he supposed himself to
be.
One mode of discussion on this forum is argument, and I have no
problem with it. One tactic in arguing is to highlight what other
people said, which is also far.
But seeing as you had the courtesy to quote the entire sentence,
it would be nice if you could then respond to the entire sentence.
If you write 'I dislike Angel's usually secretive character',
you would be right to berate me if I responded. 'Secretive persona?
Huh? What about when he told Cordelia about his problems? What
about when he shared his innermost thoughts with Buffy?' because
I would have ignored 'usually'.
If in doubt about a poster's sentence, read the entire review.
I believe it is clear that I believe their anger at each other
helps neither of them.
TCH
[> [> [> [> Correction: far=fair -- TCH, 05:07:02
10/15/03 Wed
[> [> Re: Righteously Angry? -- LittleBit, 10:11:35
10/15/03 Wed
Maybe both Spike and Angel had good cause to be angry at their
situation - but not at each other.
Why not? They have over a century of knowing and disliking one
another. Why would we expect that to change the moment the two
vampires with souls laid eyes on one another? Of course they're
going to take their frustrations out on each other; they always
have.
And while I grant your point that Angel was exaggerating the length
of time Spike spent moaning in a basement (it was at least 15
weeks and at most 33 weeks if one goes by calendar time), I think
it needs to be pointed out that Spike wasn't speaking with precision
either. On first glance, superficially, he's right...those are
the outward trappings of Angel's current life. But...Angel has
it "too good"? If you truly think that Angel is happily
running W&H and revelling in his newly gained power while blithely
ignoring the fact that the old regime is doing their darnedest
to thwart his every move then you are doing his character a grave
disservice. When Angel said "three weeks" I took it
to be an intentional exaggeration, one that was used to point
out the difference between 'a short while' and 'over a century'
and therefore, especially in response to Spike's accusation, not
out of line.
[> Re: 'It is well'- isn't it? (Angel Odyssey 5.2)(sp5.2)
-- Rob, 18:24:38 10/14/03 Tue
And so, finished, allowed the rest he called out for to Buffy
in 'Beneath You', he is suddenly yanked back. And Spike's 'Eternal
Rest' is utterly compromised. His return, the bleakness of it,
is an interesting parallel to Buffy in 'Bargaining'. Now he understands
a little of how it is to be resurrected after saving the world.
Really don't know how much I can add to that except to say that
this was such a clear parallel that I should have recognized it,
but instead never really considered the full implications until
you worded it like this in your essay. He really is in a similar
situation to Buffy now, having reached what he believed was the
pinnacle of heroic and spiritual achievement, only to be abruptly
and harshly plopped back into the world and told that he must
continue to live. I had noted the similarity between the final
scene of this episode and the final scene of "After Life,"
but with this new perspective you've given me, the parallel is
even more clear. The major difference between