October 2003 posts

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Holes and wholes: nitpicks and the big picture (spoilers thru 5.3, probably) -- Katrina, 10:11:36 10/20/03 Mon

Over the last week I've been rewatching AtS seasons one and two pretty much straight through, and I realize I was completely wrong about one of my nitpicks in a post about this season's premiere -- namely what the Tish Magev called Angel risking his immortal life every time he got in his car. But I think my complaint has the seed of a larger critique. I've been very annoyed by the "necrotized" glass in the office, and I also disliked Angel's hopping into a car with the same glass and driving off into the sunshine willy-nilly. Watching the first two seasons, however, I can see that Angel has always done this -- previously just with tinted windows. It was no less absurd then. I mean, if one of his tires blows out, he'll be trapped in the sunlight.

But the interesting thing to me is, I never noticed this at all. It was taking place within a context where I was willingly suspending my disbelief. When caught up enough in a story, I'm perfectly willing to let things like that go. But it's a fine line. How I became a fan of BtVS, and even more of AtS, which was really my show, was finding such a richly realized world, with fully developed, multi-faceted characters, driven by imaginative storylines and compelling themes. As long as enough of the elements are working together for a compelling whole, there can be continuity glitches, there can be little logical holes in the plot, potholes, if you will, that the mind can just drive over. But if the whole is not seen as working together, or if there are problems that seriously impact upon the whole, (these being perceived differently by different viewers), then those individual potholes stand out and can add to the disbelief some audience members are already beginning to experience.

I know that any specific examples I bring up will have their partisans, and that many viewers will not have reacted the way I did, so I'm going to pick one minor thing that stuck out in my mind. In the episode in season 7 where Buffy took the Potentials to the demon bar, she met up with Clem, and he mentions to her that he taped something for her off cable: a Biography episode, or something off the History Channel, that he knew she'd be interested in. And I remember thinking, What is he talking about? What would Buffy be interested in on the History Channel? What, in fact, are her interests, and her tastes? It was a tiny detail about her character that, if added upon, could make her more dimensional, and thus more interesting to me. And I realized that BtVS had largely stopped doing that kind of thing. In early episodes, there was such rich dialogue, such great interplay between the characters, that I felt I knew them. In later seasons, that was largely replaced by shorthand, by an assumption that we knew them, rather than continued character development. For example, we rarely saw so-called best friends even interacting with each other. Now, I'm one of those people for whom the last few seasons of BtVS seemed completely filled with holes. But it occurs to me now that if the whole had been working, the everyday life of the series, if you will, then I really wouldn't have cared at all about those things. Likewise, I'm concerned because my minor problems with AtS this season seem to prefigure the same kind of movement with this show, in which we we're losing a richer sense of these characters' lives and their relationships.

Sorry -- I could ramble for hours on this, but I need to get to work!

For those of you who watched the trailer for this week's Angel episode -- Mackenzie, 10:54:39 10/20/03 Mon

What do you think about it? Does it look like it will be scary. I am really not a big huge lameo but I want to be prepared. I will be alone in my new house way out in the middle of nowhere that night and I am thinking about Tivo-ing it and watching it during the bright sunshine of a Saturday morning.
I know, not really the board to be asking such a silly question but I do want to sleep after watching it.


[> Re: For those of you who watched the trailer for this week's Angel episode -- Retread, 13:08:24 10/20/03 Mon

This probably won't help much but I haven't been very scared by anything so far this season. And I think WBs promos have been a bit misleading, so I'm not expecting the hair on the back of my neck to stand up .

Years back I watched The Fugitive (Harrison Ford version) all alone, late at night, in my brother's newly built, empty house. Scared myself silly. So what do I know?

[> [> Re: I've seen still photos as well... -- dub, 13:53:43 10/20/03 Mon

Don't watch it alone in your new house...just to be on the safe side, TIVO and watch next day...IMHO

;o) (The photos are linked on the Spoiler Trollop board, but really they're very graphic.)

[> [> [> That is kind of what I thought, do you have that link? -- Mackenzie, 14:08:20 10/20/03 Mon

the promo was really creepy, sort of nine inch nails meets a horror movie. I will just watch it when the sun is shining and the birds are chirpping!

[> [> [> [> Re: That is kind of what I thought, do you have that link? -- leslie, 15:25:21 10/20/03 Mon

Though of course, always a good excuse to invite over someone you may want an excuse to clutch.

[> [> [> [> See Link to Spoiler Trollops... -- dub, 19:19:47 10/20/03 Mon

...at the top of this board. It's back in the messages about a week or so.


Rob: more on social mobility -- mamcu, 11:53:22 10/20/03 Mon

It's extremely interesting to me that Xander never attended community college. Personally, I think that class and education may be more closely related than money or job--and both are related to perceived level of "glamor" of occupation, dwelling place, clothes, etc.. A person like Xander in California city would have the com. coll. option, so why did the producers not choose it? Is it because college is glamorous (therefore at least middle class), dropping out is glamorous (therefore also not lower class, even if manual labor is involved--it's a version of grunge which has been blessed by media), but just working away to get a slightly better salary and some security (via a degree) is decidedly unglamorous and therefore qualifies for a lower class ranking.

I think this is a bit confusing, but possibly you will know what I mean.

Accidents of Fate? -- dub ;o), 13:50:03 10/20/03 Mon

I was thinking yesterday, while running my errands, of the differences between Angel and Spike, which eventually led to thinking of the similarities between Angel and Spike.

Physically, Boreanaz and Marsters appear quite different. DB seems big-boned, dark, heavy-browed. JM is a small man, thin, with the much-lauded chiselled cheekbones. As if to emphasize the difference, ME bleached JM's hair out to platinum, in contrast to DB's dark locks. Certainly Angel looks more the hero type than Spike, and that's how he's presented, at first.

I wonder if the fan community is genetically programmed to respond to one or the other? Do most people just have a natural preference, either for tall, dark, and brooding, or lean, blonde, and needy?

Both actors were initially hired for the short term, exceeded expectations, and were signed on as regulars. It was never the initial ME plan for BtVS-to create two male characters to be the antithesis of each other and rile the fan community into a frenzy-it just happened.

So, we have Angel the Good Guy, and Spike the Bad Guy. Then Angel goes bad, and we have Evil!Angelus and Wheelchair!Spike. Hmm. Not really two bad guys on equal footing, so to speak. ME seems to abhor redundancy.

Time goes on; Spike recovers and departs; Angel recovers and departs (is killed?) and returns, then departs for good to A:tS; and Spike returns for good, departs (is killed?) and returns on A:tS. There's a definite pattern here.

Then, of course, there's the major difference: Angel has a soul and Spike hasn't. Until Spike get a soul, too. Angel is a hero, and Spike isn't. Until Spike "dies" to save the world. Angel is Buffy's boyfriend, and Spike...well, you get the picture.

Now we've got these two, well, guys basically, at W&H. Major difference? Angel is corporeal and Spike isn't. For now. If the pattern plays out, Spike will eventually become corporeal, but it won't end there. It can't. We'd have, gosh, two corporeal, ex-boyfriend vampires, with souls, in the same place, at the same time. ME abhors redundancy, and differences in stature and hair color just aren't enough.

I'm just getting the feeling that Joss and ME have latched onto a formula for dealing with these two characters that works on screen, and at the same time feeds the flames of fan ardour. I say "latched onto," because it doesn't seem to have been a plan, initially. For drama you need conflict, and for conflict you need difference. It's as simple as that.

Wonder what the next big difference between these two will be? Whatever it is, the characters themselves still seem to me to be archetypal, maybe stereotypical, guys. Two types of guys, both physically and emotionally, that any young woman might run into during a certain stage of her life. Love both, hate both, be indifferent, or choose one over the other.

Hmmm. I kinda just hammered this off, so it's probably full of inconsistencies that I haven't noticed, but somebody will tell me, I'm sure.

dub ;o)


[> What about tallish, darkish, brooding, lean, blond and needy? -- d'Herblay, 16:13:18 10/20/03 Mon

I come in souled and unsouled varieties.

[> [> Re: What about tallish, darkish, brooding, lean, blond and needy? -- dub, 19:17:51 10/20/03 Mon

Okay, but isn't that kinda telling me about your inconsistencies, rather than mine?


[> Re: Accidents of Fate? -- skeeve, 07:33:48 10/21/03 Tue

Well, Angel could become human. He knows how.
The appocalypse from which he wanted to protect Buffy seems to have come and gone.
I wonder if ME has forgotten about that.
Maybe they will pretend to forget about it like they're doing with Conner.

[> [> On being human... -- Dichotomy, 08:31:49 10/21/03 Tue

Or Spike could become human, couldn't he? I'm not real clear on the prophecy, but it refers to the vampire with a soul becoming human, right? Could they be in a sort of competition to become human at this point? Just a thought I had with nothing concrete to back it up.

Buffy vs Spike -- JBone, 16:44:44 10/20/03 Mon

I walk. I talk. I shop. I sneeze. I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out, and I don't sleep on a bed of bones.


I've been having a lot of trouble getting this match up, so I'm starting it now while I can. It will last 24 hours from this posting time.

I need to toss out some thank you's to some people. First of all to all those who served as tiebreakers, though none have actually decided a match. Probably the closest we came was when d'H cast the last vote in the Jenny v Ethan contest when he finally decided to vote for Jenny. What he didn't know was if he would have cast his vote for Ethan, it would have made a tie and Jenny would still have won on the tiebreaker on that matchup. Maybe it was only interesting to me.

Anyway, I'd like to give a shout out to Dub, Rob, d'Herblay, deeva, TCH (I'm too scared to spell all of it), Masq, Diana, and MaeveRigan. (Please Joss, don't let me forget anyone.) They were my safety net when the matches were to close to guess the winner. And double thanks to Masq for putting up with the Apocalypse's hijinks on her board.

As for the comments, I've never longed for comments this year like I did last. And while the Tiebreakers have given me a cushion I never had last year, it's the comment makers who make the contest.

Post comments here, or at the voting site.


[> Slayer v Vampire... the way it ought to be -- imp, 17:00:25 10/20/03 Mon

I love both these characters immensely, but, I love Buffy just a little bit more. This time she finally succeeds in dusting Captain Peroxide--which makes her feel all superior.

After a few mintues of reflection though her inferiority complex kicks in and she chides herself because she hadn't wanted their "dance" to end.

[> Here we go... -- ApOpHiS, 17:07:44 10/20/03 Mon

Despite the fact that the unwashed masses have proven that I can't trust them to do the right thing, I'm giving you all one more chance. Buffy's kicked Spike's cold, dead ass so many times that it's getting kinda sad. Whether he had a chip, a soul, or none of the above, he was never able to put one over on Buffy. Maybe it was due to sublimated feelings, as some have said. But maybe, just maybe, it's because Buffy is just generally better than him. Heck, even Buffy's mom can take Spike. The evidence is on the table: Spike simply can't take Buffy, no matter how hard he tries or how many times he appears naked in a season. By this fight's end, Spike will be blowin' in the wind, dirtying car windows throughout the land, while Buffy goes back to her European vacation.

[> [> Are You Sure? -- Claudia, 11:48:42 10/21/03 Tue

[Despite the fact that the unwashed masses have proven that I can't trust them to do the right thing, I'm giving you all one more chance. Buffy's kicked Spike's cold, dead ass so many times that it's getting kinda sad.]

Are you sure about this? As far as I can remember, Buffy and Spike have engaged in at least four serious fights - "School Hard", "What's My Line 2", "The Harsh Light of Day" and "Out of My Line". She won two of those fights and Spike won two.

Hmmm, so things should be pretty even between the peroxide pair.

[> [> [> I don't count those as victories for Spike -- ApOpHiS, 12:23:57 10/21/03 Tue

Spike's goal (especially in Season 2) was to kill Buffy, plain and simple. Spike got angry with Angelus because he refused to simply off Buffy in her sleep like he could've. Since Spike's goal was to kill Buffy and he never did, he failed. He may have hurt her, but he never succeeded fully. As for "Out of My Mind," well, everyone gets lucky sometimes. Besides, who's to say that Spike would've killed Buffy if not for chip ex machina? She's been bitten by three other vampires and has only died from it once. Obviously, she learned her lesson after that first time.

[> [> [> [> Re: I don't count those as victories for Buffy -- Claudia, 12:56:21 10/21/03 Tue

Couldn't one say the same about Buffy's "victories" over Spike? Her intentions were to kill him, as well. She failed just as much as he did. Right?

[> [> [> [> Re: I don't count those as victories for Spike -- LittleBit, 13:16:10 10/21/03 Tue

We don't know how the fight in "School Hard" would have ended. We've certainly seen Buffy in that same postion other times (it's known as 'heightening the drama') and she's still living. She was in far more danger in Becoming, part 2 and she caught a sword blade between her hands. And as soon as Spike saw a plain ol' human with an axe in her hand, mad mommy or no, he ran. Yes, ran.

As to your assertion that it was Buffy's goal to kill Spike, I agree that it was in "School Hard" but in "Out Of My Mind" it was not. From the time Buffy learned about Spike's chip, she was highly ambivalent about killing him as long as he was not a danger to humans. So, no. Spike wanted to kill Buffy and failed, Buffy wanted to get Spike out of her hair so she could help Riley, and she won.

[> [> [> [> [> This was a response to Claudia -- LittleBite [laughing at the idiot alter-ego], 13:18:10 10/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't count those as victories for Spike -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:05:19 10/21/03 Tue

Let's not make it a question of who won; let's make it a question of who is more capable of killing the other. This removes considerations of outside interference or differing goals on the two parties parts.

Long has it been my view that Buffy and Spike are evenly matched in fighting. "School Hard", while Buffy could theoretically have gotten out of that situation without Joyce's help, I'd go with whoever was in the dominant position before outside interference came into play. Also, while he ran from Joyce and Buffy, it is good to remember that, with such evenly matched opponents as him and Buffy, one other person added in makes a big difference (especially considering that he wouldn't be able to trade blows with Buffy while stopping Joyce from putting the sharp end of the axe in his head). As for OOMM, it is fairly certain that, without the chip, Spike at least would have made neck puncture. While this does not guarantee victory, it doesn't bode well for Buffy considering that a) vampires can drain a lethal amount of blood very quickly (just look at "Innocence"), b) we've never known of someone being bitten by a vampire escaping by their own force (even Slayers), and c) Buffy would be injured while Spike wouldn't be, giving him an advantage for the remainder of the fight.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't count those as victories for Spike -- LittleBit, 14:33:27 10/21/03 Tue

Okay. I surrender. It's now clear to me that except for her mother and the chip Buffy was dead meat. Seeing her escape from situations at least as closely precarious as those before has no bearing because they were, by defintion, different. Those give us no indication of what could happen in the fights under discussion because Spike was having a good day and, of course, Buffy has that death wish. Spike was clearly the dominant one, and Buffy didn't stand a chance against him. I stand corrected.

I just like to hold on to the possibility that, when heroes are in the tightest of spaces and the most precarious of positions, they will do what heroes do and emerge victorious. It's wishful thinking, I know. Doesn't mean heroes aren't flawed; flaws are part of the makeup of a hero. Heroes have doubts, but not when it counts. I'm just wrong about Buffy, and what she's capable of doing when she has to.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't count those as victories for Spike -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:28:15 10/21/03 Tue

Never said Spike could obviously take Buffy. I said he was her equal in fighting (he's beaten her a few times; she's beaten him a few times). Mainly I credit "School Hard" and OOMM to Spike because, if the writers wanted to show Buffy was superior to Spike, they wouldn't have relied upon external sources to get her out alive (yes, in both cases the external sources were important plot/character points, but, still, the fact that they put Spike in a position where he gained the advantage seems like a statement, to me, that he could hold his own against Buffy). The problem with the "good day" thing is that, of Spike and Buffy's four fights, you could easily say Buffy was having a "good day" the two times she beat Spike (I'm not counting Season Six or afterwards, since, by that point, their feelings for each other compromised the fights too much). I would really prefer it if we could let it rest at "too close to call" (yes, Buffy is the hero, and so must always emerge alive in the end, but that, to me, falls in the same group of logic as using "It's in the script" to explain character behavior).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ask Harmony -- Malandanza, 23:47:39 10/21/03 Tue

Harmony: Okay, I'm trying to be supportive here so don't drive a stake through my heart like last time, but you can't kill Buffy. She's the Slayer. She is so gonna kick your ass.

Spike: I've got two barrels here that'll prove you wrong.

Harmony: I knew you'd take this personally. You are so sensitive! How are you going to kill her? Think! The second you even point that thing at her, you're gonna be all ahhh!

She holds her hand to her head in mock pain.

Harmony: And then you'll get bitch-slapped up and down Main Street unless she's had enough and just stakes you!

[> [> [> [> [> Sorry, But I Disagree -- Claudia, 16:52:05 10/21/03 Tue

In "Out of My Mind", by the time Buffy and Riley had reached the lab, Spike (erroneously) that the chip is out of his head. I'm certain that Buffy also believed the same and was just as interested in killing him, as he was in killing her.

I've seen "School Hard" several times. If Joyce had not hit Spike with that ax, Buffy would have been Slayer #3 on his hit list.


[> Sorry Spike, no contest for me it's all about Buffy -- Rufus, 18:12:18 10/20/03 Mon

[> Remember how I said I could never vote against Spike? -- Alison, 18:21:00 10/20/03 Mon

Well, there's an exception to every rule. I don't think I need to tell you all why Buffy would, erm, come out on top in this match. She's Buffy. Thats all I can say. I doubt Spike would mind losing to her anyway.

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- Doug, 18:33:10 10/20/03 Mon

There where only 3 individuals in this contest who had even a shot of shaking my loyalty to Spike; and Faith, Connor, and Tara all went down in the earlier rounds. So here, at the very end, I re-affirm my allegiance to the Platinum Destroyer.

[> Can there be... -- Random, 18:36:05 10/20/03 Mon

any real question about this one? Can Spike even hope to make Buffy flinch? Can we all line up to sing "Rest in Peace" together as Buffy spikes Spike over the net and deep into the dirt? No matter what has happened over the last 7 seasons, the tears and giggles and snide comments, the show was always about Buffy and her beloved Scoobs. The occasional Johnny-come-lately might have given Buffy an annoying fight or two, but I would be betraying everything I loved about the show and dishonoring the memory of that first magic that caught me back in 1997 when I first tuned into the show if I voted against Buffy. Throughout this series, I've consistently voted for the original four Scoobies every time, and now will cast one last vote for the heroine of the show....

Buffy enters the ring, calm, assured, happy. Europe's been good to her. Amsterdam was good to her. Now she's back to defend her title of Vampire Slayer. Spike stands warily in the other corner, remembering how often he had been pimpslapped by Buffy. He remembers that even when he fought Buffy to a standstill -- both times -- he was never really winning. The wisdom that comes with getting your ass kicked repeatedly has helped him to realize that this fight is futile. If Joyce hadn't hit him over the head way back when, Buffy would have simply found some other way out. Even when he was wearing a ring that made him invulnerable, Buffy still managed to take him down, and made it look easy. In the midst of these musings, he hears the starting bell and looks up. Buffy is looking at him. When she sees that he is returning her look, she simply smiles and crosses her arms. Spike may be a tad obtuse, but he's nobody's fool when it comes to self-preservation. With a quick bow, he leaps out of the ring. The last thing we see is a bobbing glowing greast ball of peroxide white dashing up the darkened aisle and out of the arena.

Silence. Buffy steps into the center of the ring and looks around as if searching for something. Nobody dares to make a sound. A small movement over on one side of the ring catches everyone's attention. As they watch, Xander, Willow and Giles clamber into the ring. Xander, being a perfect gentleman, holds the ropes open for Willow and Giles. Buffy smiles again as the other three original Scoobies approach her and hug her. Wild applause finally breaks, whistles and stomps and hoots and bravos! filling the air. With the most brilliant smile yet, Buffy breaks away from her friends to bow to the audience.

Somewhere in L.A., a man sits in a darkened penthouse suite far above the streets. He is watching something on TV. In the dim glow of the screen, we see him smile ever-so-slightly. Suddenly, a movement causes him to glance startedly over to his right. He sees Spike standing there, smoking an ghostly cigarette.

"Watched the fight, eh Angel Suppose you're bloody satisfied now." he says, and sighs.

Angel seems about to reply, then stops and looks curiously at Spike. "Not that I object or anything, but why did you run so quickly? It's not like she could actually land a blow on you in your current state."

Spike shrugs. "She'd have found a way, mate. She always does."

"Heh, that she does," Angel replies. "And sometimes sends you straight to hell. I've been there."

The two assfaces look at each other with almost-friendly expressions for a moment before suddenly snapping out of it.

"I'm not gay, by then way," Angel says. "So get out of my bedroom."

"Like I'd be with you anyway. And I'm not gay either..." Spike pauses for a moment before adding, "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

"Oh, of course not," Angel hurriedly replies.

They wait for an uncomfortable several moments. Finally, they turn back to watch the TV screen again, where Giles is lying on the mat, apparently having been knocked out by a big boom mike that one of the TV reporters brought into the ring.

[> Blonde ambition tour -- Ponygirl, 18:54:46 10/20/03 Mon

Sorry, but there's just no way Spike can win. Buffy always fights better when she's angry and no one on this or any other plane can piss her off more than Spike. In consolation Spike would enjoy every minute of the smackdown.

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- Celebaelin, 19:41:13 10/20/03 Mon

"You know what your problem is luv? You've always been able to find the power from somewhere but there are times when you can't find the will. You can never make the hard choice even when there's no other way. It's your vulnerability, even when you're drawing energy from your attachments and your bloody martyr code they're sapping the real strength right out of you. Let me make this one easy for you, see you around petal (fades from sight leaving just a wisp of spectral cigarette smoke)."

[> To, erm, borrow dialogue from another fine show... -- Caira, 20:44:15 10/20/03 Mon

"You're a real Joan of Arc, you know that, Slayer?"
"Yeah, and I just ordered a stake."

Why don't we make this simple? I like Buffy. I am completely indifferent to Spike. Pass the dustbuster, please.

[> Whoo hoo! I just knotted it up at 25-all! -- d'Herblay, 21:19:05 10/20/03 Mon

Now let's close this thing down while the tie-breakers can still be useful.

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- jane, 21:43:09 10/20/03 Mon

What? Is there any doubt? Buffy wins of course! The show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer..therefore: Slayer vs Vampire = one big dust pile. (Handing Buffy a broom and dustpan...)

[> Betty vs. BlondieBear -- deeva, 21:46:48 10/20/03 Mon

This was not as hard as I would've thought it to be. Spike is my boy. But Buffy is my girl. And I'm gonna play the sex card. I'm backing my girl up in this match. Sorry, Spike old boy but you're used to your plans and schemes not quite turning out the way you thought they would. Besides I'm sure that there will be some comforting going on after the match. ;o)

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- lynx, 22:03:33 10/20/03 Mon

truth be told, i was only watching angel (not buffy) til i saw "in the dark". so, for me, there would have been no buffy without spike. so he wins.:)

[> I like Spike, but it's in a homo-social way. I like Buffy in a heterosexual way. -- Rochefort, 23:16:03 10/20/03 Mon

And how can Spike really beat Buffy on her own show? Buffy is IT. And, honestly? Spike reallllly kinda needs to get his own life. er uh...death. Cause the whole "I love you and that's who I am" thing, after hundreds of years, is a little childish. Plus, Buffy killed Angel more times. And she gets mega points for that. Plus, there isn't a Spike-bot that's really cute and walks into walls. Plus, Buffy's hair is closer to her natural color, though not all THAT close. Plus, when the show ended, it wasn't Spike I missed, it was Buffy.

[> Slayers represent! -- skyMatrix, 23:23:03 10/20/03 Mon

I haven't voted up until now, but I had to have my voice on this one.

The way I see it, there are two ways of deciding this. The first is if we were to ask ourselves who would win in physical combat. Hey, wasn't this a thread earlier? Well, although Spike has had some luck here and there, overall the Slayer wins. Always! Setbacks yes, but Buffy will perservere in the end.

The other way of looking at it is who you like best. And although certain, um, over-enthusiastic support (at other sites) has made me lose my own enthusiasm for Spike at various points, I am not a Spike-hater, and I am often really invested in his various struggles.

That said, Buffy is the hero. Sometimes she says and does horrible things and makes foolish decisions as she struggles through a path of life (and death) more difficult than most of us (heck, most of the characters) could imagine. Cliche as it is, the weight of the world has been on her at least seven times in seven different incarnations, and she's always drawn up her strength and light to fight it. I know that people get exasperated with her sometimes, but to me Buffy is one of my favorite heroes ever, and most importantly, she is by FAR the best feminist hero I know. I'm afraid that, imho, Spike couldn't measure up to that... no one can! The Slayer wins! :)

[> [> What you said. Represent! Heh ;) -- Scroll, 01:29:23 10/21/03 Tue

[> Giggle -- Tchaikovsky, 02:30:35 10/21/03 Tue

Has everyone noticed how the comments are about 10-2 to Buffy, and the voting is 35-30? Just sayin'.

Anyway, if Spike wins this, it proves once and for all that they lost focus in the seventh Season. And as I still believe ME has a chance for redemption, I'm voting Buffy.


[> [> Re: Giggle -- Random, 09:29:08 10/21/03 Tue

Heh, like we didn't know that would happen. It's at approximately a 20-3 ratio now in terms of comments. I voted sheerly so I could write a comment cause I knew there wasn't much practical point in the voting itself. Bet Jay is getting more than a little annoyed at all this. Poor testy J-Bone. Shoulda gone with e-mail. Except that means even more work for him over and above the amount of work he's already put into creating this contest. BTW, thanks for the effort, Jay. The questionable results notwithstanding, we've appreciated and enjoyed this contest.

[> [> [> Re: Giggle -- Malandanza, 09:57:09 10/21/03 Tue

I think you're being a little unfair to the Spikephiles. As we all know, they are the most diffident members of the BtVS/AtS community, rarely expressing their views publicly, and even then, their comments are couched in such timid, equivocal language that it is often difficult to know how they really feel. Naturally such a group would be drawn to the anonymous voting -- a forum where they can finally express their admiration for Spike without the fear of censure -- but would not necessarily leave comments. The 10:2 ratio of pro-Buffy comments to pro-Spike comments vs the 1:1 ratio of votes is not an Index of Voting Fraud, but a Timidity Index.

Of course, I voted for Buffy.

[> [> [> [> Heh. -- Random, 10:06:02 10/21/03 Tue

But [looks puzzled] I wasn't suggesting voting fraud. I was very careful not to. Me, I like yor theory. My theory was simply that the Moral Majority poured in the votes. After all, it doesn't do to piss off Falwell, and Buffy and Angel were both the title characters on shows that give Falwell hissy fits. And Giles was the biggest traitor of all, an actual adult human person who mentored Buffy, the spawn of...well, not precisely evil. It was more that she was partaking of the [whispers nervously] "sex" and the "funny words that were used to fight evil" and stuff like that. She probably woulda refused to submit obediently to her husband too. Who can blame Falwell and his ilk for reacting with outrage to these atrocities, especially the last one?

[> [> [> [> [> Oh, and... -- Random, 10:15:48 10/21/03 Tue

...before mortal William died, he almost certainly was a virgin. No sex before marriage for that little bugger. Falwell and his ilk know how to appreciate how moral and upstanding it is to die from a vamp bite before ever succumbing to the sinful urges. Such a fine, upstanding example of humanity deserves to win in any contest. If we let the sinners win, we could be looking at the collapse of civilization, culminating in the President himself (or herself, hopefully very soon) having the "sex" before dying. Let us pray that never happens. [begins praying]

[> Just going on character strength... -- Rahael, 04:15:39 10/21/03 Tue

Buffy has endured the ire of various sections of fandom for years and years, and always emerged very creditably. Spike in comparison by comparison really is quite vulnerable.

Which probably explains why Buffy will lose this poll and Spike will win, and still establish the truth of the above. Buffy ultimately wins, whatever the poll says ;). So there!!

[> Take everything away and what's left? Buffy. -- Arethusa, 05:01:58 10/21/03 Tue

Thanks to Buffy, we know our ability to love is what makes us strong, and we are strong enough to change the world.

She'll always be our girl.

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- MaeveRigan, 06:46:22 10/21/03 Tue

Buffy. Of course Buffy. From the moment Spike saw Buffy in "School Hard," he knew he was going to fall for her--he just didn't know how, or how hard. It's always been all about Buffy, it's always going to be all about Buffy. She's the One, the Neo of the Buffyverse. They meet, they may trade blows for old times' sake, but Spike knows who turned his world around and without her he'd just be another vampire.

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- punkinpuss, 07:17:28 10/21/03 Tue

Another toughie. Not sure I relate as well to Buffy the character as to Buffy the show. OTOH, Blondie Bear is incorporeal now. How can the Buffster win if she can't lay a finger on him? Maybe we need a more traditional contest, along the lines of, oh, I dunno...the Miss America pageant? What could be more apocalyptically scary than a beauty pageant?

Buffy vs. Spike
Swimsuit competition. Hmmm. Tough, but I give this one to Spike even though he insists on wearing his birthday suit instead of the racy little black speedo I had in mind. Buffy it turns out is stuffing or oops, nope, it's the pushup bra of S1-3. That's allowed but I gotta take off points for that. Sorry Buff. Eat a cheeseburger.

Buffy vs. Spike
Evening wear competition. No contest. The Buffster has had quite a few stunning ensembles throughout the years and only the occasional fashion faux pas. Okay, okay Honorificus, maybe more than a few faux pas. Still, she takes the cake over the fashion frozen Spike, even though he pulls out the stops with the Bed Hair of Redemption look.

Buffy vs. Spike
Talent competition. Spike sings & plays guitar, managing a decent punk rendition of "My Way" via Sid Vicious and Gary Oldman. Buffy does her impression of Christina Aguilera singing "Dirty"...ouch. This one goes to Spike.

Buffy vs. Spike
The Interview
Asked to describe how they would improve the world, Buffy talks about taking care of her younger sister, working as a school guidance counselor, and oh, yeah, killing demons nightly. A smug little smile and she turns the mike over to Spike. "I sacrificed my life to sa --" "Hey Casper, I've done that before, too!" "You already had your say. Come off it, Blondie, you wanted to die that time!" "How dare you? You don't know me!" Buffy takes off her 3-inch Jimmy Choo stiletto heels and goes in for the kill! Only to fall right through Mr. Toasted & Ghosted, falling into the orchestra pit, and ripping her gown up the backside in the process. Oh, dear! Tsk tsk.

Ah, who am I kidding? I like my Spike and he needs that new wardrobe and scholarship more than Buffy does.

[> [> LOL...the Buffyverse definitly suffered from a lack of beauty pageants -- Alison, 12:17:55 10/21/03 Tue

[> What makes a "hero"? -- cjl, 07:39:05 10/21/03 Tue

A hero can be defined as someone who risks his or her own personal safety to protect and defend the safety of others. I think both Buffy and Spike have got that part down. But a hero can also be defined as someone whose very presence in the world inspires others to be heroes as well. Buffy turned Xander and Willow from ordinary high school kids into world-savers. Buffy brought Angel out of the gutter and set him on the course for greatness. And Buffy almost single handedly turned Spike away from evil and toward a glorious destiny--whether he wants it or not. I'm sure Spike himself would tell you: Buffy is the gold standard for heroes.

[> [> Re: What makes a "hero"? -- Ann-Sebastian, 12:51:45 10/21/03 Tue

And don't forget about Anne (aka "Lily", aka "Chanterelle"). When I saw how she'd gotten her act together over on "Angel", I remember thinking "Damn, Buffy's powerful!"

[> The only way Spike won't lose (Angel S5 spoiler) -- mamcu, 07:48:00 10/21/03 Tue

is if he's still a ghost and she can't hit him. Of course, he wouldn't be able to hit her either, so the best he could hope for is a draw.

Of course, I screwed up taping Angel 5.3 so for all I know he's solidified enough to become a Slayer punching bag--again.

[> [> Nope. -- Masq, 09:13:47 10/21/03 Tue

That's all I have to say. Nope.

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- s'kat, 10:40:07 10/21/03 Tue

The self-involved cheerleader vs. the bad poet/snarky loon?
Or the reluctant hero vs. the trickster fool? Tough choice.

Personally I can't see either of them winning this one.
All their fights come to a draw. Now if it were Buffy vs. Angel? Buffy would win - a la Becoming. But with Spike?
Buffy either escapes or Spike escapes. And when it comes to saving the world? Well Spike was pushed off that tower first in the Gift. But Buffy jumped. Spike failed in The Gift, Buffy won - dying to save the world and entering adulthood. The next time the apocalypse came - it was Spike's turn to do that sacrifical descent - and if he hadn't? Buffy would be dead along with everyone else in that high school.

Perhaps it just comes down to personal preference? Or which character made the show for you and at which point in time?
If this was a real contest? I'd say it would be a draw. With both participants turning around and biting or thumbing their thumbs at the audience in true Shakespearen fashion. We lose, they win. The end.

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- The First Naughty Virtue, 12:13:33 10/21/03 Tue

Well now, since I personally think the answer is obvious ;-) I thought I'd conduct a little poll to see what a few others might think. The question presented was "Who would win in a fight, Buffy or Spike?" I present the answers in alphabetical order.

Angel: He might have a soul, the little copycat, but having sex with Buffy doesn't mean he can take her in a fight. Having sex with Bu...I have to go brood.

Anya: If there's one female who would never need my particular type of vengeance, it's Buffy. She'll be on top of things. Lucky.

Buffy: Oh please.

Clem: Spike, 'cause y'know, Buffy's nice but she has [air quotes]'issues'. Although she is a cute little thing...not like I could blame the guy. Or her either...he's a cute little thing too.

Cordelia: Buffy. Definitely. She may not know how to moisturize but Miss Clairol hair beats the overbleaching every time. And Spike only has what? Two pairs of black pants and maybe half a dozen black shirts? And have you smelled that coat of his? Ewww.

Darla: William? Dru's little pet? Against a Slayer who's already died twice? I'd say it was nice knowing him but, really, it wasn't.

Dawn: Maybe I had a little crush on him once, but if he even thinks about hurting my sister I'll be introducing him to lighter fluid and a pack of sulfur-tipped matches. And he knows it.

Drusilla: My poor poor boy. He hasn't a chance. She's in his blood. She's in his mind, and he's out of his mind. Isn't he, Miss Edith? He's a bad boy. Have you been bad again?

Doyle: Beat a Slayer? He couldn't even steal a ring!

Faith: Yeah, right. B's got his ass kicked before they start.

Fred: I really do feel sorry for Spike, and I truly want to help him but if Buffy beats him it'll be one thing on a very long to do list that I won't have to do and I can't believe how much there is to do as head of an evil research department of an evil multi-dimensional law firm that does really horrible things but, well, I'm trying to change that evil part and anyway I say "Buffy."

Giles [not bothering to look up from book]: Slayer. Vampire. Dust.

Gunn: Pursuant to the gaming code of Verusuvan, organized Slayer vs. Vampire matches are required to be carefully monitored by a minimunm of three representatives from each side who are of equal status with the two participants. As there are now possibly thousands of Slayers here, current estimates are at 2,351, but only one other documented souled vampire, the match goes by default to Buffy, unless Spike can find two more representatives.

Harmony: Blondie-bear is still mean to me. I say Buffy wins.

Joyce: Isn't Spike the one that even I beat once?

Oz: Huh. Buffy.

Riley: Like assface could take her.

Spike: Bloody 'ell! Like I don't have enough problems as it is. 'old on, lemme think...What Would Buffy Do? Bugger. I'm dust.

Tara: Well, Buffy did have that, y'know, thing with Spike but she'd still, maybe, I think, take him in a, well, fight. I don't think she really, ummm, liked him that much.

Wes: Now that's an interesting question. On the one hand we have a unique Slayer, who has died twice and yet she's still going strong. And on the other hand we have a second souled vampire, one who went on a quest to gain that soul. Which is intriguing in itself. I've made some notes about that, being particularly interested in the fact that the vampire who sought his soul seemed to come to terms with it much faster than one who was cursed (who still broods about that). I wonder if there's any way to duplicate the souling that Spike had, without the curse. It certainly would make our jobs easier. ...Yes? Oh. Buffy, of course.

Willow: Well, now Spike's okay as vampires go, but I have to go with Buffy. She's the One, you know. And besides, she's kinda hot. Ummm...she won't be seeing this, will she?

Xander: Spike's goin' down. Although it was nice when he got Andrew's attention off of me. Nah...he's dust. Faster, pussycat, kill, kill. Ummm...not that I'm calling Buffy a pussycat, but ya hafta admit, she's pretty hot. Uhhh, she won't be seeing this, will she?

and special guest commentary from the previous champion:

Richard Wilkins: Well, gosh. He couldn't beat me. I don't think he's going to beat a fine, upstanding young lady like Buffy.

and because I can't shut her up:

LittleBite: He's such a wuss. He's a disgrace to vampires everywhere. Dust him.

[> [> Hee! I love you, FNV! -- Anneth, 13:00:26 10/21/03 Tue

Though you forgot...

Andrew: Well, uhhhh... Buffy's pretty hot.... but Spike's cool, even with the soul. Yes, gentle readers, I believe our Mr. Spike has this one in the proverbial hook, line, and sinker.

Jonathan: Uh, guys? Spike's, like, a ghost.

Caleb: That slayer may think she's got this fight all wrapped up, but she's got another think comin'. Doesn't matter how hard she tries; in the end, she'll fail. They always fail.

Snyder: That Summers girl... she's trouble. She'll always be trouble. But I wouldn't trust the other one as far as I could throw him - look at the way he dresses. He's got under-age drinker written all over him. His breath would putrify the wholesome air he doesn't breathe.

Miss Kitty Fantastico: Mew.

[> [> Poor Blondie Bear -- Claudia, 13:00:58 10/21/03 Tue

Poor Blondie Bear. Everyone is always underestimating him. To Giles - if Buffy could easily take him down, why did you plot with Robin Wood to kill him?

[> [> [> Re: Poor Blondie Bear -- The First Naughty Virtue, 13:05:23 10/21/03 Tue

I passed your question on to Giles...he pointed out that he lost to Spike in the semi-final, but this wasn't a question about a watcher vs. vampire match. His answer stands.

[> [> [> [> Dear Giles . . . -- Claudia, 13:29:31 10/21/03 Tue

But Giles, with Buffy around to kick Spike's butt, why would you need to plot his death with the vengeful Mr. Wood?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Dear Giles . . . -- Anneth, 14:23:08 10/21/03 Tue

I believe the point was not that Buffy couldn't defeat Spike, but that she wouldn't.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dear Giles . . . -- Claudia, 16:59:19 10/21/03 Tue

But . . . isn't this about what if Buffy would defeat Spike?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> oooo, my bad! -- Anneth, 17:58:20 10/21/03 Tue

You wrote: "To Giles - if Buffy could easily take him down, why did you plot with Robin Wood to kill him?"

to which the FNV responded: "I passed your question on to Giles...he pointed out that he lost to Spike in the semi-final, but this wasn't a question about a watcher vs. vampire match. His answer stands."

to which you replied: "But Giles, with Buffy around to kick Spike's butt, why would you need to plot his death with the vengeful Mr. Wood?"

to which I responded: "The point was not that he didn't think buffy couldn't but that she wouldn't."

I apologise for assuming that you were no longer talking about Buffy vs. Spike; in my response to you, I believed we'd moved on to discussing Giles' motivations in Lies my Parents Told Me. It was foolish of me not to make explicit that I was referring to that episode; I mistakenly assumed that we were all implicitly agreed that that was the new subject of the thread.

This is why I was confused. You respond to a mock-interview with Giles about who would win in a Spike/Buffy fight (he calls Buffy the victor) by asking why, if Buffy could take Spike down, did he Giles feel the need to team up with someone else in order to defeat Spike.

First of all, your question referred to an actual episode of the show, not something from the very non-cannonical Road to the Apocalypse series.

Secondly, you appear to believe that Spike could defeat Buffy because Giles once teamed up with Wood in order to attempt to defeat Spike - which is a totally illogical syllogism-ish sort of thing. If this were a Spike/Giles match, that would be a valid argument (as in "Giles couldn't defeat Spike alone and he knows it. Just look at his actions in Lies."). As this is a Spike/Buffy match, it doesn't matter who Giles has ever plotted with to take Spike down unless he teamed up with Buffy and they suceeded or came close. Furthermore, it's an illogical and moot point in the sense that you're referring to cannonical events apparently without taking into consideration the curcumstances leading up to those events. In Lies, Giles teamed up with Wood not because he felt Buffy couldn't defeat Spike, but because she wouldn't. Yes, Buffy was alive and kicking in Lies, but the fact that she didn't take Spike down in that ep has nothing to do with her ability to do so - it never even came to that. Rather, LIes was in part about Buffy's reasons for not wanting him dead, and Giles' and Wood's reasons for wanting him dead.

Your question appeared to me to be implying that you had changed the subject from "who would win in a Buffy/Spike fight?" to "what was Giles' motivation for pairing up with Wood in Lies?" because, as mentioned above, arguing that Spike could defeat Buffy because Giles had to pair up with Wood in order to defeat Spike doesn't make any sense. Because it didn't make sense to me, I assumed you had changed subjects. I apologise - I should know better than to assume things, shouldn't I? ;)

[> Re: Buffy vs Spike -- Anneth, 13:06:43 10/21/03 Tue

Buffy'll win, and she deserves to.

Can we pit her against famous literary characters next? (closes eyes) I see... I see... Buffy vs. The Giant Worm-Monsters from Doom! I see... I see... Buffy vs. Mr. Rochester! (Oooh, he outbroods even Angel!) Buffy vs. Batman! Buffy vs. Achilles! Buffy vs. Joseph K! Wee!

[> [> Erm - by "Doom" I meant, of course, Frank Herbert's Dune. -- Anneth, blushing., 14:20:34 10/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> oh, i just figured... -- anom, 18:46:04 10/21/03 Tue

...your perfectly balanced (in the Carrollian sense) mind was working so frumiously it combined Buffy vs. the Sand-Worms from Dune with--Buffy vs. Dr. Doom!

That was it, wasn't it? Do I win a No-Prize? @>)

[> [> [> [> oh, and by the way... -- Anneth, 22:16:53 10/21/03 Tue

Heh. Buffy vs. Dr. Doom. I loves it!

So, how was your crumhorn-in-the-park thingie? (Is it over? Can I ask for real now?)

[> [> [> [> [> crumhorn in the park w/anom -- anom, 23:32:16 10/21/03 Tue

Yes, it actually happened. About a month ago now, so you're safe to ask. @>)

It was nice--beautiful weather. My throat hadn't quite cleared up, so I played more than I sang. cjl showed up w/a couple of friends, but we only saw each other for a few minutes. My brother came, for the 1st time since I've been performing there! (More on what he's doing in another post, elsewhere.) I had fun, but my feet hurt by the end--I was on them for 6 hours, in not-very-supportive but plausible-for-the-period shoes.

[> What a battle. Three hours to go and it's 60-59, Buffy. -- cjl, 13:39:05 10/21/03 Tue

I didn't think 120 people knew this board existed.

[> [> Well, now -- The First Naughty Virtue, 13:48:51 10/21/03 Tue

There are 126 on the Meet the Posters page. ;-)

[> [> [> and apparently 50% of them don't realise -- Majin Gojira, 14:00:05 10/21/03 Tue

it would really be a betrayal of the themes of BtVS if Spike would come out on top. So much for female empowerment, eh? A hard set of check bones makes some people forget about that little detail :P

[> [> [> [> You're my new hero, Majin-san. -- ApOpHiS, 17:29:52 10/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> 71-70, Buffy. Two hours to go. -- cjl, 14:55:22 10/21/03 Tue

And, holy crap, the votes are flooding in.

So much for "126" ATP posters. I think we have ringers on both sides!

[> [> [> [> Ringer-dingers... -- Random, 15:03:56 10/21/03 Tue

And I think you're right. At least a fair number of the Buffy votes can be verified through the fact that they left comments. Though the number of posters in MTP is by no means an accurate reflection of the traffic, I imagine. Lots of lurkers, plus several of the posters profiled in MTP are no longer hanging around the Board. But I would bet a lot of money that the lurkers outnumber the absent friends of old, and that 126 is definitely on the low side. Oh well. It's not like any of this matters.

[> [> I was sixty -- KdS, 13:53:55 10/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> Happy Birthday! ;-) -- The First Naughty Virtue [looking innocent], 14:14:02 10/21/03 Tue

[> Spike leads 67-63 -- d'Herblay, 14:28:56 10/21/03 Tue

[> [> Dammit! I mean--oh, how interesting! -- MaeveRigan, 15:53:18 10/21/03 Tue

[> nolo contendre -- sdev, 17:04:44 10/21/03 Tue

Well despite all the new empowered Potentials I think you all know how I feel---

Buffy is still The One.

[> Author, author -- Celebaelin, 17:05:07 10/21/03 Tue

Come on now Jay, tell us the answer. You know we'll go to the site to read your word on it and review the arguments on a fancy background anyway.

Before the result's known I'd just like to thank you for all the fun.


[> When does this match end? -- LittleBit, 17:15:50 10/21/03 Tue

I thougth it should be over 15 minutes ago.

[> [> Re: When does this match end? -- Celebaelin, 17:26:56 10/21/03 Tue

Logically the site had to have been up by 16:44 board time yesterday and officially runs for 24 hours. It's up to Jay though really isn't it? He told us some late votes were excluded in the Angel vs Spike matchup.

[> [> [> Re: When does this match end? -- Jay, 17:55:00 10/21/03 Tue

It was just impossible for me to get home in time to get it down. I thought about that when I started it, but thought that I'd never be that late. So, of course, I was that late. It was probably up at least a half an hour to long.

I haven't been able to monitor this at all. I've working at a job site all day and have no idea how it's been going. I was about to dive into all the comments, but spotted this and thought I'd answer this first.

Oh, and the late votes in the Angel v Spike matchup were email votes coming in were clearly on the second day.

The First vs. Jasmine -- Ames, 19:04:25 10/20/03 Mon

What would have happened if both Buffy and Angel had failed in their respective efforts to stop the First Evil and Jasmine? Would the armies of the First have poured out of Hell to wreak havoc on the peaceful and happy world of Jasmine worshipers? Would Jasmine have fought against the First? Or would they have reached some kind of accomodation? Did they even know about each other? If so, was each expecting the other to fail?


[> Re: The First vs. Jasmine -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:52:59 10/20/03 Mon

I imagine that they'd fight. While Jasmine may have been violating everyone's free will in a big way, it wasn't quite the overriding tide of evil that the First wanted.

Now, presumably, when the First Evil finally released its army, it planned for it to be strong enough to overrun the human population. So, I don't think that Jasmine's rule would change that much. Of course, Jasmine herself would serve as a pretty strong individual in a fight, and she might make the fighters of the world more united for the threat of the Turok-Han. Still, humanity's ability to battle the First's forces wouldn't be greatly changed, so I think, provided the First built up its strength enough first, that it could still have won against Jasmine.

[> [> Would the First's army even have fought Jasmine? -- skeeve, 07:28:55 10/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> Re: I can see the Uber-vamps as newage hippies, wearing flowers on their crowns -- Brian, 08:54:43 10/21/03 Tue

Got any pocket change?

The FE -- Evanescence, 14:41:37 10/21/03 Tue

Hi can anyone tell me why the FE was incorpeal. It said its the strongest evil and powerfulest so why didn't it make itself solid before creating evil? wasn't it all powerful or did it need someone else? Sorry is this has been said before but it just occured to me, thanks.


[> Re: The FE -- Brian, 15:11:09 10/21/03 Tue

I thought that the FE was only power, dark energy; and therefore, could not be corporal until it had all its power in one place (when all those good thoughts and feelings of the people in the world were dead and gone). Of course, after rewatching Season 7, I think that the FE lost some its power to the Shadowmen back when they first created the Slayer. It has been waiting in time for the moment to repossess that power and become whole and corporal. It's one of the reason why it's so angry at Buffy.

In a way, the FE is Buffy and Buffy is the FE, and it's damn hard to destroy yourself.

[> [> Re: The FE -- ScottS, 15:59:26 10/21/03 Tue

The show is about metaphor, and the inner conflicts that plague every thinking being. The First Evil is a stand-in for the tiny black hole at the center of the human spirit, which breeds self-doubt and guilt. In "Amends", where the FE first appears, Angel reaches the crisis of his souled existence, and considers suicide because he cannot abide his own violent nature and the misdeeds of his past. The FE is conceptualized as incorporeal, because doubt and guilt are not intrinsically violent, but give rise to secondary emotional states which do lead to bad acts. We should always look for the metaphorical/psychological significances of each demonic creation in Buffy.

[> [> [> Evil Is Incorporeal -- Claudia, 16:17:07 10/21/03 Tue

Isn't evil . . . real evil, supposed to be incorporeal anyway? Isn't it really a manifestation of any being's darker nature?

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