September 2003 posts

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Question about vampires -- Ann, 12:27:38 09/15/03 Mon

Question: If the only way to become a vampire is to be bitten by one and then bite them in return, does that mean that a person chooses (in some way) to become a vampire? Granted, the choice is not a good one because death is the alternative, but does that say something about the soul/personality of the bite-ee? Is the fear of death greater than the fear of becoming a vampire? Or does the initial bite by the vampire somehow start the process of the "infection" to become a vampire, making the "bite back" choice more likely? Thanks.

[> The vampires cut themselves first -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:08:43 09/15/03 Mon

The vampires suck some of the human's blood, then cut themselves so that they bleed a little, and press the cut to the human's mouth. The human doesn't have to bite the vampire, just drink some of their blood, which they don't have much choice in.

A Quiz -- Claudia, 12:34:58 09/15/03 Mon

Here's a little quiz that should prove to be easy:

1. Who was the first guy whom Buffy had serious feelings for, romantically?

2. What was the first episode in which Spike appeared bare-chested?

3. How many times has an outside force rescued Buffy from being killed by a vampire?

4. Exactly how many years were Angel and Darla together? Spike and Drusilla?

5. Who in both the series and movie has been the Slayer longer than any other?

[> #1 -- VR, 06:34:50 09/16/03 Tue

If it isn't Angel, I'm gonna hang up my Buffy superhero belt

[> [> Hang Up the Belt -- Claudia, 08:27:01 09/16/03 Tue

Hang up the belt, because it isn't Angel.

[> [> [> Re: Pike? -- Brian, 09:02:08 09/16/03 Tue

[> [> Re: #1 -- Casi, 10:48:27 09/16/03 Tue

If we are talking just in reference to the show, I believe that would mean the first person she had romantic feelings for would be Billy Ford. She says in the episode Lie To Me that he was her first big crush. I can't remember how long she said it lasted, but I think it counts.

[> [> [> Billy Ford -- Claudia, 11:27:00 09/16/03 Tue

[She says in the episode Lie To Me that he was her first big crush. I can't remember how long she said it lasted, but I think it counts.]

Was Billy Ford in love with her at the time? And did they have a romance?

[> [> [> [> No, they didn't -- VampRiley, 17:52:39 09/16/03 Tue

He couldn't have wasted his time with her, since he was a manly sixth grader, now that I remember.

[hangs up belt]

It was too tight for me anyway and it didn't go with anything in my closet or my fabulous brownshoe shoes.


[> [> [> [> [> Longest Reigning Slayer -- Claudia, 09:42:26 09/17/03 Wed

So, that means that Billy Ford wasn't the first guy to harbor serious feelings for Buffy?

And has anyone answered the question about who was Slayer longer than anyone else in both the original movie and the TV series?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Was there even a mention of who was the oldest? -- VR, 17:16:45 09/17/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Both? If either, Faith. -- Celebaelin, 17:44:38 09/17/03 Wed

Giles lack of emotional perceptivity -- shambleau, 14:45:48 09/15/03 Mon


Giles not seeing or at least not sufficiently caring about Faith's isolation and need of a parental figure.

His surprise that Joyce would blame him for Buffy running away.

His missing that Willow was "barely hanging on" after Oz left.

His obliviousness to the W/T connection.

His not picking up on Willow's increasing reliance on magic, even though the events in Something Blue should have rung some bells.

His inability to see any changes in Spike.

His ignorance of how much pressure he put on Buffy by saying that she was their only hope against The First in Bring It On.

His apparent belief that planning the attack on Spike wouldn't affect Buffy's relationship with him.

His missing that his drawings of bloody monsters might freak out Chau An.


I know some of this is debatable, but boy, is he ever Mind and not Heart when you look at his actions, especially when he's not dealing with Buffy.

[> Re: Giles lack of emotional perceptivity -- sdev, 21:14:33 09/15/03 Mon

I agree with this. To me the biggest one was his leaving Buffy in Season 6.

I also especially agree that "His surprise that Joyce would blame him for Buffy running away" was pretty obtuse.

[> [> Re: Giles lack of emotional perceptivity -- Celebaelin, 06:43:04 09/16/03 Tue

Giles not seeing or at least not sufficiently caring about Faith's isolation and need of a parental figure.

Giles is in a difficult position if he want's to support Buffy in an official capacity again. Wesley was Faith's Watcher and Giles wasn't a Watcher at all at that point. Don't cross the WC (they can get you deported 'in a heartbeat'). He does usurp some of Wesley's authority directly and hence has some interaction with Faith. Remember that the WC line is Watcher plus Slayer and no-one else, no friends, nothing that could conflict with the mission.

His surprise that Joyce would blame him for Buffy running away.

I thought that he was just surprised and embarrassed that she was 'Un-English' enough to actually just out and say it. I suppose he could have shrugged it off with a 'Well, duh! So do I on some levels.' but I think I prefer what he actually did say (and what is implied about the ensuing 'low down').

Giles: Joyce, you mustn't blame yourself for her leaving.

Joyce: (nods) I don't. (takes a breath) I blame you. (exhales)

Giles is taken aback.

Joyce: You've been this huge influence on her, guiding her. You had this whole relationship with her behind my back. I feel like you've taken her away from me.

Giles is speechless for a moment while he considers his answer.

Giles: I didn't make Buffy who she is.

Joyce: And who exactly is she?

Giles just looks at her.

Cut to Helen's Kitchen. Buffy is filling the sugar dispensers at the counter. Lily comes in and walks up to her.

His missing that Willow was "barely hanging on" after Oz left.


His obliviousness to the W/T connection.

Again agree, willing suspension of disbelief ('Bloody Hell' TYF).

His not picking up on Willow's increasing reliance on magic, even though the events in Something Blue should have rung some bells.

Perhaps, but can Giles be sure that this wasn't D'Hoffryn's doing? She did hold back from the Veruca-Oz curse (although it's possible Giles may not know that).

His inability to see any changes in Spike.

TYF shows that Giles doesn't read Spike all that well, and neither does anyone else. I don't think the assumption that Spike is playing a role he thinks will confuse and/or put people off their guard is 'insensitive'. Buffy only found out about the ensoulment because Spike essentially told her, and Giles was never that close to Spike (needless to say).

His ignorance of how much pressure he put on Buffy by saying that she was their only hope against The First in Bring It On.

Perhaps deliberate, perhaps insensitive. Buffy has grown into her role as Slayer in a way that no other Slayer has had the possibility to do. She deserves to be given more of the responsibility. Many of the events of S6 might have been avoided if Buffy had willingly accepted this but she still hasn't had time to adjust to the loss of Joyce and as a Slayer she never will have. This seems to me to be an obvious fact, it's unfortunate but Buffy has to learn to make her own decisions and deal with the consequences. This is symptomatic of 'the sundering of the scoobies' but compared with preventing apocalypses the messy business we call life is, frankly, laughable.

His apparent belief that planning the attack on Spike wouldn't affect Buffy's relationship with him.

I'm not sure where this comes from, I thought it was more a matter of individual take on the dangers as opposed to the benefits? Making ones' own choices and so on.

His missing that his drawings of bloody monsters might freak out Chau An.

Like she wouldn't be freaked out if she saw a real Turok-Han? It's a lot more scary than a 5 yr olds crayon drawing can convey.

Imagine, picture goes all wibbly-wobbly, fade to the front room at the Summers' house towards the end of a brief but graphic flash-card session

Chau An: Scream

She leaps from her chair and runs up the stairs

Giles: Ah, yes, I, er, I think she's getting the idea.


[> feel I should defend Giles -- MsGiles, 09:39:05 09/16/03 Tue

but haven't got the time right now to start sifting through for specifics, but if the thread's still here when i get back i'll have a go ..

I feel sure he has shown great sensitivity at times, if rather covered in brit tweediness. Some of the lack of understanding Buffy can be put down to the generation/culture communication gap, which after all is partly what Giles is *there* for (to emphasise Buffy's own qualities and for contrast humour) rather than just plain insensitivity, don't you think?

[> The Foreigner in a sunny dale -- fresne, 10:31:35 09/16/03 Tue

I'm not really sure that I'd characterize Giles as any more emotionally insensitive than any of the other characters, but that could be a lasting impression from S2 and S3.

This is the point where I suppose that I take the examples given and um, argue about them, but eh.

The one that interests me the most is the Joyce example, because well, at the time, and even in retrospect I blame Joyce too. Not in a she's responsible sort of way, but in a she was under enormous pressure, very worried about her daughter and boom. Vampires, Slayers, Apocalypse. Gotta go. So, she lashed out at her daughter. Her last words to her daughter were ones of anger and she told her to go and she's gone.

And here's this interloper, this symbol of the increasing secrets in her daughter's life. The burning down of the gym that drove them to move in the first place. Oh, actually, no, vampires. Her daughter had this whole other life and all that pulling away, meant that all those parenting books she reads are useless. And here is this interloper, this English, foreign body in her house. Other. The other that knew all about that other life, abetted it, was so involved that he took injuries from it, telling her not to blame herself. And what if she never sees Buffy again, her last words angry ones, so she blames him, because how can she stand another moment of blaming herself. The words just pouring ugly out.

And he takes it, because Joyce has a point and she needs to let it out and he blames himself too and his greatest fear is that he'll fail Buffy and bury her brave young bones. And since, he's the one who told Angel how to open the gate, broken and bleeding, that last sweet kiss with not-Jenny, there's plenty of blame to go around.

That's what I love about the series. This sense that there is this whole complex seething for every character under the surface.

And without further ado, and I know that these are all Buffy related examples, Giles moments of emotional clue.

Giles sitting in the car with Buffy as she apologizes for not killing Angel in the mall. Giles telling her that things are going to be hard, but that he believes in her.

His utter compassion in IOHEFY as he gives her a quality of forgiveness speech. And consider that by that point in the plot Jenny is dead. That he has been obsessed with trying to talk with lost love. And yet, he can pull back enough to try and reach out emotionally to Buffy.

Or even earlier in LtM, that moment over Ford's grave. The sense that he knows exactly how hard this is going to be for her. BtW, my guess for her first full on love.

Or DMP, that moment when he goes into the kitchen to make a pot of tea and shudder sighs a summer of tension and that's it. He's the only one who doesn't lash Buffy for running away. Is the only one who sees what must have happened with Angel. Knows to push and push and push Buffy, until she lances the wound and lets it out.

While there are many moments over the years where he is not emotionally perspicacious, the single line, "There is no spell." buys him a lot of perspicacity.

[> [> Giles emoting -- sdev, 12:05:57 09/16/03 Tue

I also think Giles was right to let her have it in Revelations for not telling him Angel was back, reminding her that Angelus had tortured him. I think that was one of his most emotional moments of the series where he stopped being the watcher and was just a person. I think he was teaching empathy from the other side of the emotional fence. And it worked.

And yes his pushing Buffy to have that cathartic spilling of her killing Angel not Angelus was quite brilliantly intuitive. Did it suprise you?

But although you are surely right about Joyce's guilt, her point is inherently valid. Giles forbade Buffy from telling her mother. It seems a contrived part of the story that she was kept out of the loop for so long when others knew. I suppose it was a necessary device for the tension it created, but I always felt the plot could have got there in a better way. Maybe it was a remnant of the movie. But in the movie, as I believe Darby recently pointed out, the parents were of an entirely different caliber from Joyce.

[> [> [> Clever title with quote -- fresne, 15:08:19 09/16/03 Tue

It didn't so much surprise me as it made me grin foolishly and say, "Giles is the man." There may have been a silly dance in there somewhere.

As to his later reproof, absolutely. Empathy is not a one way street.

Re: the secret life of Buffy, I think it was one of those the longer it went on, the harder it was to say something.

The Giles of WtHM certainly wouldn't have said anything. He just got there. And he has this Time life series of books. And a calendar (huh!) and look a big dusty book on vampires. Sorry, Vampyres. I guess they come with their own internal fire. Thus must be why they burst into such kindling. Anyway, here is the destiny that he resisted and, huh, it's just as messy as non-destiny.

And once you have the scene where Giles and Joyce meet for the first time, "Teachers at your school really do care." Well, then. How exactly to segue into...and by the way, sacred destiny, blah, blah.

Come up with excuses, but really it's all about unpleasant, awkward, ick, because Buffy is a child (and not, because it is a transitional age), and Joyce is her mother, and you really should have said something a year ago and hey, the Watcher's Council says not to. And you probably have precedents, because there is always a precedent, for how saying anything is a bad idea and so you go for the repressed, say nothing route. It's all very ripe and tweedy, which makes me think of tweed tomatoes, so I shall stop.

Canadian Conservatives view Clem as a typical Liberal... -- KdS, 15:06:15 09/15/03 Mon

This is weird.

[> Clem is reptilian? -- skeeve, 15:21:56 09/15/03 Mon

[> That's where our kids are learning... -- Masq, 16:14:19 09/15/03 Mon

to use ad hominem arguments instead of addressing the issues.

Let's play politician poker! Tasty!

[> Re: Canadian Conservatives view Clem as a typical Liberal... -- RJA, 16:21:03 09/15/03 Mon

Bizarre.. and possibly libellous?

However, nothing increases my admiration of a politician when they give a well argued critique of the central policies of their opponenent...

Oh well.

(Although the time someone released a bunch of helium balloons reading 'Young tories eat kittens' at a college fair of mine was very funny, if immature)

[> Mark this well... -- Ponygirl, 07:21:33 09/16/03 Tue

It's the first and last time humour will enter this election. Though I refuse to believe that it's in any way a Buffy reference because that would mean a Tory was watching Buffy. That would just be wrong.

In totally OT news, this has just blown me away:

There's politics, there's fiction, and then there's behaving as the world ought to be.

[> [> Definitely behaving as the world ought to be -- Scroll, 07:45:00 09/16/03 Tue

Thanks for that link, ponygirl. TTC is a lot more dangerous than I give it credit for -- I had no idea about the voltage on those rails either! It's uplifting to know there are ordinary people out there who can be real heroes.

As for the Clem insult... How is being called a Clem an insult? He's one of the most beloved minor characters in the Buffyverse! Clearly these Tories don't know jack about pop culture, the media, or young people today. Oh wait, we already knew that. And yeah, I can't really see Tories watching Buffy either. That'd be like some kind of alternate dimension, weirder than Pylea and more horrific than Quortoth!

[> [> Dabs tear in eye -- Masq, 12:14:07 09/16/03 Tue

I often think of that when waiting for the subway. It seems just too easy to accidentally knock someone off the platform without intending to, or to fall, as this woman did.

What would San Franciscans do? I'd like to think we'd work together to help the person get back up.

[> Re: Canadian Conservatives view Clem as a typical Liberal... -- Angel's Nibblet, 19:31:57 09/16/03 Tue

"loose morals"

indeed, i would have to say staying home and watching j lo movies is a crime......poor clem, he doesnt deserve this, and since when has he been from another planet??? obviously these ppl have never watched buffy

Martial Arts Actresses -- Claudia, 16:23:03 09/15/03 Mon

Martial Arts Ability

Most of the actresses on action-adventure shows/movies or in science-fiction/fantasy shows/movies have been portraying characters with martial arts abilities for the past 15 or 20 years. Which actress (one with no past history of martial arts) seem to embody as the best amateur martial arts fighter?

My choice would go to Michelle Yeoh from "Tomorrow Never Dies" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". I think many would be surprised to learn that before she starred in martial arts films in the 1980s and 90s, Michelle Yeoh was primarily a dancer with no martial arts background. Something no one would believe after seeing her in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".

My second choice would be Sarah Michelle Geller of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".

What about you? What non-experienced actress seemed very capable as a martial arts fighter?

[> Re: Martial Arts Actresses -- isis, 16:52:23 09/15/03 Mon

I believe that SMG held a brown belt in tae kwon do before Buffy. (Joss was delighted)

[> [> clarification -- isis, 17:10:59 09/15/03 Mon

According to "Bite Me" by Nikki Stafford: "She (SMG) had studied the martial arts for four years, and was two belts away from her black belt..."

Just wanting to be a little more accurate. That is if you can call quoting an "Unofficial Guide to the World of Buffy the Vampire Slayer" being more accurate :)

[> Re: Martial Arts Actresses -- MsGiles, 07:29:12 09/16/03 Tue

I'd vote for Carrie Ann Moss - I don't think she had that much experience before tM, and even on wires a lot of that stuff would be hard work. I read an interview on all the months of training they had to do beforehand (and injuries sustained while filming), and it sounded awesome. And it looks so good.

[> Re: Martial Arts Actresses -- mamcu, 11:20:04 09/16/03 Tue

The special features on the Lara Croft video claim that Angelina Jolie learned a lot for that movie--the first one, that is. I haven't seen the second. It looked pretty good, but not in the league with Yeoh and Geller.

I also read somewhere that Cheng Pei Pei, who played the older fighter, Jade Fox, in Crouching Tiger, was also a Hong Kong martial arts actress who had done most of her own work in the films and had also done most of it in Crouching Tiger, as did Yeoh. Now she was impressive!

[> [> More on Cheng Pei Pei--Come Drink With Me -- mamcu, 11:25:53 09/16/03 Tue

Well, actually Cheng's training was originally in dance, too. Here's an interview on her early years (Maybe we can do Come Drink with Me as a Classic Movie):

Cheng Pei Pei interview

Willow vs Jenny -- JBone, 20:10:38 09/15/03 Mon

Oh wait. What if they don't recognize my authority? What if they try to convince me that you always let them leave class early? What if there's a fire drill? What if there's a fire?

I'm just a tiny bit distracted by the Cowboys winning on MNF, but I fully intend to have today's results up later.

[> Re: Willow vs Jenny -- Celebaelin, 20:55:09 09/15/03 Mon

It's not getting any easier is it? Willow gets my vote of course, Willow vs Tara here we come.

[> yesterday results up -- Jay, 21:12:25 09/15/03 Mon


[> Re: Willow vs Jenny -- Apophis, 21:38:32 09/15/03 Mon

Hmmm... okay, they've both got magic stuff, so I can't judge them on that... they're both hot, so that's out... they've both done morally questionable things, so I can't decide who would cheat... oh, well, I voted for Willow because I'm depraved and I want to see Willow vs. Tara. It'll be fun in a mean way, like watching a fly with no legs under a magnifying glass. Don't judge me.

[> Jenny graciously steps aside -- HonorH, 22:27:24 09/15/03 Mon

recognizing that her former student has surpassed her. Willow and Jenny hug before Willow continues through to the next round.

[> As current acting chairman of MOLOJ.... -- cjl, 22:29:11 09/15/03 Mon

I'm technically obligated to vote for Jenny. I'm voting for Willow anyway, because--despite my immense affection for Jenny--Willow-love transcends any political office.

[> [> As founder on sabaticle... I quietly don't blame you. -- Rochefort, 21:57:22 09/16/03 Tue

[> BTW, JBone, the Buffy Yearbook has ripped you off! -- HonorH, 22:29:23 09/15/03 Mon

They did a multi-round contest of the Big Bads, complete with sarcastic commentary. Can ya believe it? Cheaters!

[> [> I am shocked! I live on sarcastic commentary. -- JBone, 22:38:12 09/15/03 Mon

Well, not totally, I also drink beer and eat beans. But with sarcastic commentary, it's a violent diet.

[> Black-eyed Willow vs. Gypsy Jenny -- deeva, 00:09:05 09/16/03 Tue

Willow would wipe da floor with Ms.Calendar. After fighting the dark forces within her, Willow succumbs to it and gets all witchy woman. Jenny would be all "W.t.f.?" Jenny hasn't been studying like she shoulda been. The student has surpassed the teacher.

[> I voted for Jenny -- KdS, 06:05:24 09/16/03 Tue

Simply because for me Willow was the one character who was ruined in S6-7 by ME's inability to reconcile their philosophical text and subtext.

[> Re: Willow vs Jenny -- MaeveRigan, 06:59:46 09/16/03 Tue

Evil or good, black or white, the student has surpassed the teacher. Willow takes this round. (I'm trying to be completely objective about this, but also, I just love her.) Jenny, like any good teacher, should be proud to concede.

[> Re: Willow vs Jenny -- Kenny, 20:16:45 09/16/03 Tue

OK, I didn't get to vote on this one, but am I the only one who thinks that, upon seeing Ms. Calendar and realizing that hotness that is her, Willow would just drool and step aside? One mention of dangling earrings and Will should be a pool of jelly-like matter.

(OT) My thoughts on Underworld -- neaux, 05:50:52 09/16/03 Tue

Saw it last night in Durham where the turnout for this Film was freakin UNREAL. I had passes to the screener of Jeepers Creepers 2. There were about 12 people there. My friend and I show up for UNDERWORLD and there is line wrapped around the theater.

There was this group of "goth" folk, I use the term "goth" loosely because they looked more like Duran Duran rather than gothboys and girls.. but they seemed hyped for the event. Anyone who dresses up for a movie must have high expectations, right?

Well again the highlight of this film for me was the trailer for Resident Evil 2. So I'm sure you can guess what I thought about the film...

I really did want to love this film.. I tried. The problem was really that it was a good story poorly told. The pacing was horrid. Action in the first scene (which everyone had scene in the previews) and Action in the last scene and nothing but Talk talk talky in the middle.

The wolfy transformations- cool.
The wolfy cgi- crap.

Kate's Outfit-cool.
All the other vampires' outfits- crap!

How the hell can any vampire fight with long trenchcoats that they cant barely walk in!! I couldnt stop laughing at how sluggish the vamps looked in this garb.

Oh and the gun battles make you yawn... and yawn some more. Maybe I'm spoiled by equillibrium, I dont know.

anyway.. those were my initial thoughts after seeing the film. Like i said, the story is good. but its a story told mostly through dialogue rather than action.

if you want to see a good vampire movie. Buy "THE TWINS EFFECT" now out on DVD a great Hong Kong Vampire Hunter movie in the vein of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[> saw the trailer, thought Anita Blake ripoff or what? -- MsGiles, 07:16:37 09/16/03 Tue

.. sexy vampires, werewolves, power struggles, guns, etc
Pity it's rubbish, though :(
I've wondered about getting some digital editing set up, and making 10 minute versions of some of those films that have great bits but too much crap to enjoy them properly (and no pacing). it would be an interesting exercise. Films all seem to feel obliged to push two hours at the moment, sometimes there's enough there (as in LotR) but often not.
Thanks for the Twins tip.

[> [> Don't know about Blake... -- KdS, 07:43:40 09/16/03 Tue

But White Wolf Games are definitely sueing them for allegedly plagiarising the set-up of their Vampire:the Masquerade and Werewolf:The Something-or-other RPGs. Don't know if I'll bother, all I can say at the moment is that if the posters for it on the sides of London buses haven't been Photoshopped, then Kate Beckinsale is an infiltrator from some low-gravity insectoid race whose make-up can't cover up its freaky limb proportions ;-)

[> [> [> Nancy A Collins of the Sonya Blue books -- fresne, 09:38:33 09/16/03 Tue

Is also sueing them for infringing on her story "Love Among the Monsters" I believe the comment was, "They're billing it as a modern day Romeo and Juliet. I say they're telling my story and not paying me."

Since there is a definite connection between the vamps in Sunglasses After Dark, etc. and the White Wolf stories, if White Wolf sues, Ms. Collins would as well.

Personally, it looks pretty. I'm going to put on my brand new dominatrix pumps (because I don't have like twenty other pairs of black shoes already) and some leather and go see a movie with my similarly clad friends. I think an Ank or an Eye of Horus will be de rigueur. Although given Friday night waltz, Ren Faire, Underworld, and apartment cleaning, this will be an interesting clothing weekend.

[> [> [> It's 'Werewolf: the Apocalypse' and I'm very sceptical about this lawsuit -- Doug, 20:02:14 09/16/03 Tue

Apart from surface similarities (Vampires and Werewolves trying to kill one another, use of modern weapons, general atmosphere + style of architecture and clothing) the two settings aren't as similar as everyone is making them out to be. Werewolves in the World of Darkness are born, while in Underworld they are bitten. None of the spiritual elements are similar either; in the World of Darkness the Garou are Holy warriors; the Fangs of Gaia. The game Werewolf has been jokingly referred to as having "the philosophy of Captain Planet but with a bodycount." The truly original elemet that White Wolf added on to the werewolf mythos was the ecological and spiritual elements, so while admittedly I can pin Tribal stereotypes on each of the werewolf characters from just seeing the trailers and reading the website, the truly original elements of Werewolf: the Apocalypse have not been ripped-off (at least as far as I can see).

Now admittedly the similarities between Vampire: the Masquerade and Underworld are greater. The female lead is practically a clan Brujah stereotype (though I supose she could be Assamite, what with the whole assasin thing, but Assamites hunt other Vampires.) But gone is the apocalyptic mythos, the actual clan structures are not there, (even if we do have Brujah stereotypes, Ventrue stereotypes, and Toreador stereotypes wandering around they don't form destinct clans like in the WoD) and while vamps and wolves still hate one another in the WoD the Werewolves are the more active initiator of the conflict (the undead are a mockery of life and an abomination against Gaia) while the vamps are more survival-oriented (try to gang up on a werewolf to kill it pre-emptively, and if you can't do that take a page from Angelus and kill his family). From interviews with the creators of Underworld I think that in Underworld it's the other way round, with vamps being the active hunters.

(OT) Order of Letters in a Word doesn't matter? -- dmw, 06:27:46 09/16/03 Tue

From to the LanguangeHat site:


Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe. ceehiro.

[> Wlel, I crnialety fnuod taht spiiurngrsly easy to tnasartle -- Tkioschkavy, 06:40:51 09/16/03 Tue

[> This is a taste of what my kind of dyslexia is like. -- CW, 07:17:08 09/16/03 Tue

Except I don't always get the first or last letter right.

[> Possible that this is a hoax... -- Darby, 08:51:41 09/16/03 Tue

I backtracked the source a bit, and reading one of the pages from the top provides some interesting speculation and a bit of deeper backchecking that sounds right. No time to do a big search myself right now.

This also shows that we are by no means the most obscure discussion group in the Wide World.

[> [> Re: Possible that this is a hoax... -- dmw, 12:38:02 09/16/03 Tue

I wondered that myself since I haven't found any specifics on the study anyplace, but it seemed interesting and people have already written programs so you can obfuscate your own text and it generally seems to be readable. However, it doesn't work with long phonemes like "ough": look at "tuhrgoh" compared to "through."

[> Makes sense to me -- Gyrus, 10:42:14 09/16/03 Tue

Human beings use a variety of cognitive shortcuts, so it doesn't surprise me that we tend to focus on the key letters in a word rather than reading all of them.

It also neatly explains why I read the phrase "passionate clinches" as "passionate clichés" the other day. Of course, it was a movie review I was reading, so I may have been cognitively primed to look for the word "cliché". :)

Got my copy of 'Chance' in the mail today!!! -- Rob, 10:01:21 09/16/03 Tue

Having seen it at DragonCon, I recommend it to all of you...There are some jaw-dropping scenes that are of particular interest to us Buffy and Angel fans.


[> Re: Got my copy of 'Chance' in the mail today!!! -- Casi, 10:45:11 09/16/03 Tue

How crazy is that? I just saw it at Dragoncon as well, and man........ One has to wonder though, would we find it at all amusing if we weren't buffy fans?

[> Rob! Casi! Don't tease! -- Ponygirl, 10:59:17 09/16/03 Tue


I'm sure that I'll have a fiscally irresponsible fangirl moment eventually and order it, so spoiling it won't put me off buying.

[> [> Where/How are you ordering it? -- Enquiring Minds Wanna Know!, 11:41:51 09/16/03 Tue

[> [> [> Here you go. -- pellenaka, 11:53:54 09/16/03 Tue

Go here:

Enter and click on "Find out more!" in the new window that appears.

[> [> Here's some minor spoilage, ponygirl. -- Rob, 16:52:19 09/16/03 Tue

The 3 must-see moments of the movie, which should be essential, required viewing for all Buffy and Angel fans are:

1) James Marsters wearing a dress!!

2) Amber Benson and James Marsters making out!! (and boy do they have chemistry...believe me, it was HOT!!!)


3) Andy Hallett, playing a gay guy, hitting on James Marsters.

Besides that, it's a very sweet, slightly off-kilter movie that basically revolves around a girl, named Chance, who comes home to her apartment to find her friend, Simon, sitting on the floor of her bedroom, with a girl who died from an overdose lying on her bed. This sparks a series of flashbacks, flashbacks-within-flashbacks, and monologues, basically examining Chance as a character. The acting is strong...JM and AB are adorable together, and the film has a very cool, confessional style. Oh, and if I forgot to mention, the movie is hilarious.

Would the film appeal to a mainstream audience? Probably not. But this is a great arthouse film, and the script is clever enough that even non-Buffy fans would find things to enjoy, although they wouldn't appreciate it as much as we do. Frankly, it's just a big kick to hear Tara and Spike cursing. ;o)


[> [> [> OK now I have to get a copy too. -- deeva, 17:39:06 09/16/03 Tue

[> [> [> Wrestling my hand away from my credit card! Must. Resist. -- Ponygirl, being all thrifty until payday, 06:42:42 09/17/03 Wed

Old Ones -- David, 10:05:22 09/16/03 Tue

Hi I was watching Buffy season 1 again and was wondering what the old ones were?. Thanks

[> The Old Ones are the ancestors of modern demons -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:18:54 09/16/03 Tue

In the beginning, ancient demons ruled the Earth. However, with time, they began to fade away, disappearing into demon dimensions. By the time humans arose, most of them were already gone. The last of them, though, mixed its blood with a human being to create the first vampire. Also, as Anya tells us in "Graduation Day", demons eventually found ways to enter our world again, but they involved becoming tainted, unable to assume their true form. That's why the demons Buffy fights usually aren't the giant pure demons, such as the Mayor's Ascended form, or the three-headed best that's emerged from the Hellmouth in the past.

10 Most Memorable Moments -- Claudia, 11:45:36 09/16/03 Tue

Here are my ten most memorable moments on BUFFY:

1. Buffy Dive Into Glory's Portal in "The Gift"

2. Spike Confesses to Buffy About His Soul in "Beneath You"

3. Xander Consoles Willow & Saves the World in "Grave"

4. Angelus Murders Jenny Calendar in "Passions"

5. Buffy and Faith's Fight in "Graduation"

6. The Scoobies' Fight Against Caleb in "Dirty Girls"

7. Spike's 'Love's Bitch' Speech to Buffy and Angel in "Lover's Walk"

8. Buffy and Riley's Break-up in "Into the Woods"

9. Spike Encounters Buffy on Summers' Back Porch in "Fool For Love"

10.Spike and Wood's Fight in "Lies My Parents Told Me"

Honorable Mention: Xander and Cordelia Fight Off Xander's Admirers in Summers Basement in "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered".

[> 10 Small Gestures that Meant So Much -- cjl, 12:21:48 09/16/03 Tue

No big speeches. No pyrotechnics. No big drama.

Xander wanting, NEEDING to lick that ice cream off Willow's nose. (WSWB)

Riley holds on to Buffy's scarf for dear life. (G,I)

Giles closes off Ben's nose and mouth--calmly, efficiently. (The Gift)

Willow and Tara join hands. (Hush)

Buffy tears up Joyce's photograph. (Forever)

Spike lightly bops Tara on the nose. (Family)

Buffy's got so much power, she's giving it away. (STSP)

Angel turns on his heel and walks off into the smoke (GDII)

B/X/W group hug. (Primeval)

Buffy's enigmatic smile. (Chosen)

[> [> Beautiful -- Alison, 12:46:06 09/16/03 Tue

[> [> Re: 10 Small Gestures that Meant So Much -- skeeve, 12:59:23 09/16/03 Tue

You forgot Giles cleaning his glasses.

[> [> [> Re: 10 Small Gestures that Meant So Much -- Claudia, 13:01:06 09/16/03 Tue

[Buffy tears up Joyce's photograph. (Forever)]

It was Dawn who tore up Joyce's photograph, not Buffy.

[> [> [> [> So she did. Even better. (Was trying to think of one for Dawnie...) -- cjl, 13:23:43 09/16/03 Tue

[> [> I need to add to that the most satisfying moment of the end of S7 for me... -- Rob, 17:44:17 09/16/03 Tue

Buffy's quiet little reassuring smile/giggle at Willow's "Scythe matters" joke in End of Days. That tiny little smile was so meaningful, in that even at such a dire moment, Buffy took the time to acknowledge Willow's joke, something which, only the episode before, she would not have done. It both reaffirms their friendship and gives us a hint that things might turn out okay for Buffy in the end, psychologically. It's my favorite moment of the end of the seventh season.


[> [> And in 'Dead Man's Party'... -- Sofdog, 20:49:15 09/16/03 Tue

Giles takes off his glasses and smiles while looking in the refrigerator when Buffy comes back from LA.

And in "Amends" Willy wishes Buffy a Merry Christmas as she's leaving the Alibi Room looking for the Bringers. ("Hey, kid! Merry Christmas.")

[> Re: 10 Most Memorable Moments -- Rook, 13:33:27 09/16/03 Tue

1. Buffy's "I don't want to die" speech in PG

2. "Mom? Mom? Mommy?" - IWMTLY

3. "This is how it's going to lay out" Buffy/The Mayor in GD II

4. Buffy, Giles and the Wizard costume in NPLH

5. Tara's death in SR

6. Giles dropping the wine glasses in Passion

7. Buffy stabbing Angel

8. Buffy's Swan Dive

9. Buffy/Faith GD I fight

10. "Bored now" - Villains

[> [> Re: And the look on Buffy's face as Angel recognizes her at the end of Beauty and The Beast -- Brian, 16:08:03 09/16/03 Tue

Anya vs Lorne -- JBone, 20:13:53 09/16/03 Tue

Would you say it was a break away pop hit or more of a book number?

I'm working on the Wicca results, I should have them done within the hour. So you will find them here.

Post comments at the voting site, here or email me.

[> Anyanka vs. Krevlorneswath of the Deathwok clan -- deeva, 20:47:44 09/16/03 Tue

Even in her human state, Anya would beat Lorne. Lorne baby is a lover, not a fighter. Even if he has pipes that can hit notes that can make your ears bleed, Anya has the stones to beat him down. But let's say that this wouldn't be physical fight, even then, Anya would best Lorne. The girl knows her way around words, scathing and blunt in the way only she can be.

[> Re: Anya vs Lorne -- Celebaelin, 20:52:57 09/16/03 Tue

Lorne is getting pumelled, a sole voice from the crowd shouts 'Sing Bright Eyes Lorne, Bright Eyes'. Trouble is if anybody has their mouth open there's a substantial chance that Anya is going to put her foot in it. I can live with that but I did want to see another No. 6 seed make it through, tough break man.

[> JBone, you're a sadist. This one is close to impossible. -- cjl, 21:02:43 09/16/03 Tue

How the hell do I choose? (Oh, all right.) AU scenario: Anya leaves Sunnydale after "Selfless," and winds up behind the mike at Caritas. Lorne hears one chorus of "Bunnies," and is instantly entranced by Anya's 1100-year old bundle of contradictions. ("Only aura I've ever read that had footnotes.") Lorne hires himself as Anya's manager, then her singing partner, and they tour the C&W bars of the netherworld as the demonic George Jones and Tammy Wynette. After breaking box office records in 159 different dimensions, Anya finally grows impatient and asks Lorne if there's anything he'd like to tell her--like his sexual orientaiton. Or his gender. Lorne demurs. "Sorry, lambie pie--gotta keep the mystery." Anya breaks Lorne's butt (that's where his heart is, you know), goes solo and signs to Ani DiFranco's Righteous Babe label. Vengeance is sweet, and the groupies are sweeter. Little Aud, happy at last. (Next: Xander vs. Anya. JBone, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO ME?!)

[> [> I didn't create or write these characters, blame Joss -- JBone <- who is enjoying it, 21:11:35 09/16/03 Tue

[> [> [> I've been blaming Joss for the past 18 months. He needs a break. -- cjl, 21:22:38 09/16/03 Tue

[> [> crazy in love with anya...and not a big lorne contest! -- Nino, 21:16:24 09/16/03 Tue

[> Hard call, but-- -- HonorH, 22:16:46 09/16/03 Tue

I've gotta go with the one who can be meaner, and that's Anya, no contest. Whatever guise she's in, she's just more ruthless than "Give 'em all some love!" of the Deathwok clan. Therefore, Anya wins my vote.

[> Re: Anya vs Lorne -- Apophis, 22:25:06 09/16/03 Tue

Anya wins easy. One look into her soul would leave Lorne FUBAR for the rest of his life. There's only so much a seabreeze can fix, afterall.

[> Re: Anya vs Lorne -- MaeveRigan, 06:47:23 09/17/03 Wed

I believe OMWF revealed where Anya's dream lies--she'll do anything for a chance at the bigtime, and now that Lorne has the star resources of W&H at his green fingertips, he's the demon to give her what she wants. She sings her heart out for him, and once he knows all her secrets, past and future, it's all over. She signs on the dotted line and heads for a six-week gig in Las Vegas. Oops--she forgot to read the teensy-weensy print in the contract that says at the end of her fabulously successful appearance singing those "breakaway pop hits," she goes back to the Nether Realms. Lorne wins.

[> Agree with cjl -- matching mole, 10:12:15 09/17/03 Wed

or at least with his title as I haven't read the actual post. These are two of my favourite characters. And both ones that have been given short shrift recently. I'm voting for Lorne because a) he is still alive and b) he's hasn't had as much good material to work with over the years (and yet he's still alvie).

Anya just has to hum a little tune and Lorne will be there with a suitcase full of lagomorphs and it will be all over.

[> [> Yep, exact same reasons I voted for Lorne. -- s'kat, 10:46:23 09/18/03 Thu

[> No question, Lorne -- Masq, 10:23:47 09/17/03 Wed

Anya was amusing for about five minutes at the end of Season 3. Then she got tedious. Get a new schtick, girl.

Lorne, on the other hand, I don't know if I like him better when he's calling Angel pastries, singing a cooing Connor to sleep, or trying to throttle an annoying Connor over the head. Go Lorne!

[> [> Hey! I'm not disagreeing about the seabreeze-y goodness that is Lorne... -- cjl, 11:46:44 09/17/03 Wed

....but Anya was much more than just a few good minutes in S3!

How about:

-- her seduction of Xander in HLOD?
-- the big bunny costume in Fear, Itself?
-- the stand-up comedy bit in Restless?
-- the "peer pressure" speech (Triangle)?
-- "Willow's a demon?" (Checkpoint)
-- her tear-duct draining speech in The Body?
-- every single beautiful note coming out of her mouth in OMWF?
-- the heartbreaking solo walk down the aisle in Hell's Bells?
-- her prison confrontation with Andrew and Jonathan (TTG)?
-- the Spike/Anya snarkoff in Beneath You?
-- every single moment of Selfless?

Andy Hallett is the bee's knees, but give Emma her due!

[> [> [> Sorry, I just never saw the appeal of Anya -- Masq, 12:22:16 09/17/03 Wed

I think we have a case of trying to make arguments to change someone's taste, and my taste does not run in the snarky and blunt. I prefer subtle and mysterious. Or for action, the emotionally screwed-up and homicidal.

-- her seduction of Xander in HLOD? Very, very obvious. I prefer subtle.
-- the big bunny costume in Fear, Itself? The whole Bunny thing--I never got it. Never found it funny.
-- the stand-up comedy bit in Restless? Lame. There's a style of humor here that just doesn't reach me.
-- the "peer pressure" speech (Triangle)? You've been human over a year girl. Get with the program. Boring now.
-- "Willow's a demon?" (Checkpoint) Always rooted for Willow in the Willow/Anya rivalry.
-- her tear-duct draining speech in The Body? There might have been a little draining.
-- every single beautiful note coming out of her mouth in OMWF? I much preferred Tara's beautiful voice.
-- the heartbreaking solo walk down the aisle in Hell's Bells? Hell's Bells is not high on my list of fave episodes.
-- her prison confrontation with Andrew and Jonathan (TTG)? zzzzz. Uh?
-- the Spike/Anya snarkoff in Beneath You? S**** who? 'nuf said. Snarkiness doesn't impress me.
-- every single moment of Selfless? One of the better episodes of Season 7, I'll grant you. But you have to "get" Anya to get all this stuff.

And I think that's the problem. Her humor, looks, and "newly human" schtick just didn't leave an impression on me. Again, a matter of taste.

[> [> [> [> Defending/explaining my love for Anya in general and these scenes in particular. -- cjl, 13:08:07 09/17/03 Wed


Fair enough. Spike and Anya simply aren't your cup of espresso. But let me explain why these scenes and Anya herself appeal to me.

-- her seduction of Xander in HLOD

Not only for the vulnerability clearly visible underneath Anya's almost inhuman sexual straightforwardness, but for Nic Brendon's hilariously bemused reaction to her bluntness. Best of all was his summation of the entire experience: "STILL more romantic than Faith."

-- the big bunny costume in Fear, Itself

Monty Python and the Holy Grail is my favorite movie comedy. The bunny thing will always be funny to me because I can see Anyanka fleeing from that cave just before Arthur and his knights arrive with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

-- the stand-up comedy bit in Restless

Yeah, it's a bit "meta-comedy," but that's why I like it. (And Anya's beaming pride at delivering a joke and actually getting the laugh is adorable.)

-- the "peer pressure" speech

This is a brilliant mockery of Afterschool Special morality, delivered with the precision timing of a Swiss watch. (Unfortunately, Mutant Enemy would then fall into the Afterschool Special trap with Wrecked.)

-- "Willow's a demon?"

A perfect punch line. Like the peer pressure speech in Triangle, Emma's comic timing is almost faultless.

-- her tear-duct draining speech in The Body?

Needs no defense.

-- every single beautiful note coming out of her mouth in OMWF?

No argument about Amber's voice. But "Bunnies" and "I'll Never Tell" are big parts of why the episode is a classic.

-- the solo walk down the aisle in Hell's Bells?

OK, I admit this a personal thing. I think I loved the finale of the episode even more, with a despairing Anya framed against the black background. It was almost a portrait, a moment of grief frozen in time. Heartbreaking.

-- her prison confrontation with Andrew and Jonathan (TTG)

Anya is struggling with herself in the final episodes of S6, trying to decide whether the concepts of human morality she's learned over the past three years still apply to her, even in demonic form. Her blunt warning to Jonathan and Andrew and her death watch over Giles in Grave show that she wasn't going to go back to demonhood easily, if at all. This sets up Anya in S7 and Selfless.

-- the Spike/Anya snarkoff in Beneath You

Whoops. When am I ever going to learn never to use the "S" word around Masq? A matter of taste. YMMV.

-- every single moment of Selfless

One the best episodes of the entire series.

[> [> [> [> [> ::giving Masq a dollar:: ;) -- Dead (but neither an actor, nor a movie star) Soul, 19:48:16 09/17/03 Wed

-- the stand-up comedy bit in Restless

Yeah, it's a bit "meta-comedy," but that's why I like it. (And Anya's beaming pride at delivering a joke and actually getting the laugh is adorable.)

Not to mention a wonderful homage to that wonderful movie, My Favorite Year

Although Anya clearly has no need for accordian lessons.

[> [> [> [> [> Bravo! Perfect analysis of my favorite character. -- Rob, 23:14:05 09/17/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Mmmm.... -- Masq, 09:28:47 09/18/03 Thu

And I'm just explaining my not-caring-in-particular-for-Anya.

Different strokes....

[> You see when a big cloud meets a little cloud... -- fresne, 16:13:23 09/17/03 Wed

Scene - A spotlit white gazebo.

Lorne saunters on scene wearing an amazing lemon colored suit, salmon shirt and matching tie as belt. His lemon fedora is tilted at a jaunty angle.

He's humming "I lost my hat in Haiti." As he begins to sing, a monkey leaps onto his shoulder, grabs his hat and runs across stage and into the darkness.

A backlit woman in a forties circle skirt and halter top appears. (So, it's a really good backlight).

She steps into the light and surprise, it's Anya. (How amazing, you didn't see that one coming did you." And she's wearing the fedora at an equally jaunty and rakish angle.

"Isn't it a Lovely Day" begins to play, while a rain stage effect begins to spatter fall almost in the light.

Lorne sings, "The weather is frightening, The thunder and lightning, Seem to be having their way, But as far as I'm concerned, It's a lovely day"

Anya shrugs, "I'm not interested in book songs." and starts to walk across stage.

Lorne twirls, strolls around the gazebo and whistles.

Not to be beat, Anya whistles too.

They stroll the gazebo, hands in pockets, almost, but not dancing.

As the music breaks, Lorne spins toward us and gives (well, not Fosse hands) a hand wave. Then he folds his arms and smirks.

Anya whatever shrugs back. Anya does the same step and ends with a dismissive stamp of her right foot."I'm dancing crazy." and then throws in a step that the music doesn't allow him to duplicate.

He rolls his eyes and they face each other, ballroom close, arms folded.

They spin, stop, twirl, clap hands simultaneously and (on "Oh what a break") tap strut to the front of the gazebo, landing in synch on the right foot.

Lorne and Anya are smiling now and for the first time they touch, though only to push the other off into a set of twinning spins.

It's time for the final chorus. They slide-taps face each other. Something's gotta give. (Wait that's a different number, oh whatever.)

Lorne takes Anya in his arms and leads her in a set abandoned spins. Whee!

Backing off, they face each other, tap again, do a quick Lindy, arms airplane wings. He lifts her into a ballroom spin. Then, she lifts him into one!

In open ballroom position, they do an outrageously high dip, and leap off the stage as Lorne's hat falls off Anya's head.

The monkey puts it on and then moving the secret zipper reveals that the monkey is in fact Irving Berlin, who has won this round.

But wait, Berlin is actually Cole Porter.

Wait Cole Porter is actually Numfar, who does the dance of joy and the lights go out.

Wait, I was supposed to choose wasn't I. Umm...does a little tap shuffle number and slouches off stage.

[> [> Delightful! -- Dead Soul, 19:51:24 09/17/03 Wed

[> [> At the Chicago meet, I must see you dance. -- cjl, 21:35:05 09/17/03 Wed

[> [> [> yeah, fresne! you can not sing, & i'll not dance @>) -- anom, 00:22:26 09/18/03 Thu

That was beautiful, even if I didn't get all the dance ref's. (no, no need to explain them).

[> [> [> [> You know I was thinking of that dance number too, but couldn't quite work it in. -- fresne, 11:19:19 09/18/03 Thu

As it is, (despite your exhortation) I shall reveal in a behind the scenes secret, the dip off stage is from the "Let's Face the Music" number in Follow the Fleet (gosh, I almost said Shore Leave and that would be wrong). It's just so outrageous.

And in another behind the scenes secret, would it be wrong of me to admit that I looked up a dance analysis of the "Lovely Day" routine? It's like research, only involving plagiarism and a good deal of editing down.

And since these things come in threes, I must admit, I can't tap, and you can't make me. Unless, like, this is one of those movies, where the villain has a gun and makes the hero/eine dance, but only under those circumstances, because you know, the Wolf has my shoes, and it's the end of a perfectly swell romance or something.

Now, if one of the attendees knows how to ballroom dance and is in sufficiently good physical condition, I would love to free form waltz "Danse Macabre", which is hellaciously cool and murderous to dance. It's a waltz. It's a polka. It's the dead rising from the grave for one last frenetic dance. And it even has a Buffy connection. After watching Hush, I really wanted to Danse Macabre with Giles, err ASH. Well, him and Jack Skellington, which is even more logistically difficult.

You know, if we can find a barn and some wood, paint, fabric, we could put on a show. Wait, I've drifted into Rooney and Garland.

So, who wants to watch some musicals at like 3am? Fast forward the plot. Watch musical numbers. Plot, what plot?

[> [> [> [> [> Me! Me! [waves hand in air] -- LittleBit, 12:59:52 09/18/03 Thu

I want to watch musicals at 3 am!! And I can ballroom dance, but I'm not real strong on the lead. ;-)

Who the hell brought Angel back from...well, hell? -- Nino, 20:29:49 09/16/03 Tue

The First took credit in "Amends" but it was never really gone into in depth...I think Jasmine took credit for it, but thats kinda lame...what is ME's explanation? Is there one? Is it in the site somewhere, Masq, and I'm just missing it? I must know!

[> Re: Who the hell brought Angel back from...well, hell? -- MaeveRigan, 09:49:33 09/17/03 Wed

The First was lying--part of its campaign to get Angel to eliminate himself, a plan thwarted by the mysterious, unseasonable snow in "Amends."

It seems evident that the Powers That Be brought Angel back to be their "champion"--this is more or less the indication Angel gets from Doyle and from the Oracles in season 1. Jasmine takes advantage of this for her own purposes.

It's also worth noting that the "Powers" of the Angelverse may not be exactly what you or I might be thinking of as "Good." Several on this board have discussed the possibility that the PTB's are simply interested in "balance" or "order" rather than chaos, and prefer some kinds of order over others--which is why occasionally the "Evil Little Girl" (RIP) in W&H's White Room helped Angel & Co., for example.

[> [> thanks...that helps :) -- Nino, 12:59:27 09/17/03 Wed

[> Re: Who the hell brought Angel back from...well, hell? -- Miyu tVP, 10:30:18 09/17/03 Wed

why, it was Buffy, and her love, and her ring that called him back from hell.

You can't tell me that was coincidence! ring on the floor. zap. naked Angel on the floor.



Senior Partners -- Buffys#1fan, 13:19:51 09/17/03 Wed

Does anyone know what the senior partners are or what their names are since Lilah called one by name in Deep Down and it sounded human.
Thanks for any answer

[> Maybe they're like the Ra-tet -- Ray, 18:09:12 09/17/03 Wed

Some are in human form, others aren't. Remember in Reprise that one Senior Partner had to be summoned in Demon form, but it was stated that it wasn't the natural form.
Maybe one of the Senior Partners is here permanently.

[> Re: Senior Partners -- Angel's Nibblet, 00:14:58 09/18/03 Thu

The Senior Partner mentioned in Deep Down was Mr Suvarta... wonder if we'll ever get to meet these people?

Vampires and Love in Jossverse -- Claudia, 14:13:01 09/17/03 Wed

While reading Jen Sonstein's (formally of of Season 5's "Fool For Love", I came across the following:

"Somehow, when Dru stole his soul, she left part of his heart intact. Someone needs to explain to me a Joss concept I've never really understood-how can a vamp be so heartless, yet possess the ability to love and be loved? How can one lacking a soul experience such sensitivity?"


" Thank you to the writers for totally shocking me, but I'm utterly confused! This episode left me with such warm feelings and hungry for more. But, it also reminded me of the inconsistencies of Joss-world and his vampire lore. What allows Spike the ability to still be true to his heart when he has no soul? Is it possible that one can work independently of the other? I'm not so sure if I can accept this concept. When Angelus returned, his heart seemed to harden-there was no Angel to be seen. How is it that Spike can be such a softy? Is this another confusing element of Buffy-verse we meant to just sit back and accept?"

How many of you feel the same? That Whedon was inconsistent about a souless vampire having the ability to love? And how many of you understand what Whedon was leading to, in regard to Spike and to Buffy's view on vampires and demons, in general?

[> Spike's ability to love was always a part of his character -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:42:01 09/17/03 Wed

Just take a look at "School Hard" for his tender treatment of Dru, or how he let Buffy go in order to save her in "Lie to Me", or how he and Drusilla were described as sharing affection and jealousy in "Surprise".

I think it has to do with the fact that Spike is pretty much amoral: like some humans who don't really care about doing good, Spike doesn't care too much about doing evil. Unlike some other vampires, evil isn't something he views as sacred; he always tries to do what's best for Spike, whether it's right or wrong. Angelus, however, was totally focused on evil: he was the Ghandi of evil, the Mother Theresa of evil, the purest saint of evil. As such, he possessed an extreme hatred for anything seen as good, so he wasn't able to love because the entire concept was something he hated. Once he got his soul, though, he became open to concepts of good, and so was able to love.

[> [> Spike's love's bitch, he loved Dru she was his every reason to be -- Andrea, 16:16:28 09/17/03 Wed

well that and killing the slayer...

[> Re: Vampires and Love in Jossverse -- Ann, 15:18:41 09/17/03 Wed

This reminds me of a fellow I used to work with. He was a deeply religious guy. He and I used to have talks about all sorts of things including the soul, religion and the like. He was amazed by me because he could not understand how I was not religious yet I still lead a life that tried to respect everyone, tried to be kind and do the right things - a "moral" life. He said that if he did not have his belief in Jesus that he would be out "raping and murdering" (his words). He thought his "soul" and his faith were the only things keeping him from doing this. He did indeed have his issues.

I think Joss may have been making a statement about people who choose to do the right thing even if they do not have the traditional beliefs in the "soul" or religion. The chip in Spike's head was a force for good even if he did not have a soul. Even though Spike did not choose this for himself, I think Joss wanted us to know that we could make this choice for good sans religion (aka the chip) and that was still ok.

[> Re: Vampires and Love in Jossverse -- RJA, 15:21:40 09/17/03 Wed

Was it not Drusilla who said about vampires (in Crush I think), something along the lines of 'oh we can love quite well, just not wisely'.

It seems from that that love is not the sole preserved of the souled. Surprise really sets it out - that vampires can still contain elements of humanity. The vamp that got killed possessed humanity through his love of books, Spike and Dru through their love for each other.

I think that Angelus was meant to be the exception, or at least a vampire so evil that he contained no humanity whatsoever. I think that whatever, it was meant to establish him as the worst of the worst. So on that grounds, Angelus is not the norm for vampires, which is why its not out of character for vampires to be able to love.

I would also say that losing your soul is not necessarily losing your heart, just that there is no real moral compass which can direct your heart. I.E love well, but not wisely.

[> well what about that James Vamp on AtS -- Andrea, 16:09:57 09/17/03 Wed

Well the guy also spend an eternity , with his vampire lover Elisabeth , and was willing to die for her, i just think that it isn't an inconsistency on the buffyverse that Spike Can Love Buffy Or Dru Or whoever, and Angelus Couldn't is just that Angelus had an extraordinary cappacity for hate and blodshed, and was driven by them, but spike Was driven by the need to satisfied First Dru, and then Buffy because both of them showed him an other world.

Eyghon -- LL, 16:20:31 09/17/03 Wed

Can anyone help me with a bit of info: I need to know if the "friend who died" during the Eyghon ritual in Giles' youth was ever named. In fact, any extra details someone might be aware of would be greatly helpful.

[> Re: Eyghon -- CW, 17:15:39 09/17/03 Wed

According to "The Monster Book" the unlucky youth was named Thomas Sutcliffe. They supposed to take turns being the host for Eyghon while they slept, but Thomas was unable to control the demon and it destroyed him.

[> Re: Eyghon -- Rook, 17:20:44 09/17/03 Wed

It was Randall, no last name mentioned. The other members of the group, from Gile's list were: Thomas Sutcliff, Deidre Page, Philip Henry, Ethan Rayne and Rupert Giles.

[> [> Just shows don't believe everything you read. -- CW, 18:05:15 09/17/03 Wed

Rook seems correct according to the the episode. However, the episode itself is confusing since "three down, two to go" is repeated. That implies there were five who dabbled in the possession, not Giles' list of five plus Randall. ("Randall" might possibly be a last name.) Its even possible "Randall' is a continunity flub. The best guess is to follow Rook's interpretation, that there were six young people not five.

Wesley vs Mayor Wilkins -- JBone, 20:12:46 09/17/03 Wed

Ahh. You know Angelus, attitude may get you attention, but courtesy wins respect.

Since I'm getting out of town Friday, I want to have the Second Round finished tomorrow. This is the final match. Only one of these two men will survive to see the next round. Who will it be? I dunno.

I may or may not have the Demon results up tonight, but if you can keep it to yourself, (Anya wins). Post comments at the voting site, here, or email me. Have fun deciding the fate of these two combatants you wacky, voting kids.

[> Re: Wesley vs Mayor Wilkins -- Celebaelin, 20:22:04 09/17/03 Wed

As my old grandpappy used to say, wait a minute that was me wasn't it? Gosh darn it, the whole thing just gets so confusing doesn't it? What about lunch Thursday?

[> [> It's payback time. -- cjl, 21:02:34 09/17/03 Wed

Buffy Season 3 and the Mayor were the downfall of Watcher Wes--and he hasn't forgotten a single moment, no sir. Wes won't be fooled by the Mayor's charm; Wes won't listen to Tricky Dick's folksy wisdom; Wes won't be intimidated by the Mayor's political power. As keeper of Wolfram and Hart's immense library of mystical knowledge, Wes will find a reversal spell for the Box of Gavrok, and Mr. Invincible will be coughing up spider-thingies until he's begging Wes to end it all. The Mayor's reign of terror is OVER.

[> Re: Wesley vs Mayor Wilkins -- Anneth, 20:49:01 09/17/03 Wed

God knows, I love Wesly. Especially if he's sitting on my couch with a tub of Chunky Monkey and those delicious glasses... and, okay, that's private. Anyway, as much as I love Wes, I don't think even his scruffy/morally-ambiguous incarnation could take the Mayor.

[> Re: Wesley vs Mayor Wilkins -- MaeveRigan, 20:59:19 09/17/03 Wed

[Better get my vote & comments in now--while I still have electricity--we're waiting for Isabel here.]

Buffy season 3 Wesley could never defeat the Mayor, but since the rules of this whole contest seem remarkably flexible, I'm moving it to an alternate universe in which A4 Wes meets Wilkins...and I believe he could figure out a way to take him down. Wes understands darkness now, and hard choices, in a way he never did when he was just a hoity-toity head-boy Watcher. So I'm betting on Wes, who also looks way cuter without a shirt. And he's not a giant snake. So far.

[> Re: Wesley vs Mayor Wilkins -- Apophis, 22:13:22 09/17/03 Wed

As a faithful employee of the Wilkins administration, I, of course, support the Mayor. Wes is dark and unshaven and all, but can he brood-out a giant snake? Can he steal a baby from a giant snake? Can he have an affair with a giant... well, you get the idea. The Mayor's a friggin' GIANT SNAKE!!! Nobody beats a giant snake (except Buffy, but that's neither here nor there). Now Godzilla, that's who you'd call to beat a giant snake. Godzilla can take Wes too, but he wouldn't eat him, not like Mayor Giant Snake. Yep, the Mayor's gonna all kinds of eat Wesley. That boy is one eaten British ex-Watcher throat-scarred guy, all right. No two ways about it. Yessiree... Are you still here? I thought we were done. No, I'm pretty sure that's it. Look, I've got things to do, alright? Just go, man, geez. I don't do this to you. I've got work to do and people are coming over later. What? No, you don't know them. Look, I'm gonna go, and when I come back, you'd better be gone. Seriously.

[> Sorry Mayor, you may have clean hands but you're a bad bad bad man.....and I prefer Wesley...;) -- Rufus, 22:45:54 09/17/03 Wed

[> [> clean only in the literal sense -- anom, 23:50:29 09/17/03 Wed

[> [> [> And 'hands' only in the metaphorical sense (being a giant snake and all) -- Valheru, 02:00:21 09/18/03 Thu

[> Re: Wesley vs Mayor Wilkins -- Caira, 03:48:27 09/18/03 Thu

So, you reckon a shotgun blast would succeed in giving Invulnerable!Mayor an ouchie where swords and letter-openers failed? Nah, probably not, but worth a shot... regardless, Mayor Wilkins, that paragon of All-American small-town values, virtue and courtesy... basically, even if he *hadn't* literally sold his soul and turned into a giant snake, he needed killin'. As did all his ilk. As an Australian, I cannot stand by and let someone who'd forbid his underlings from swearing in the middle of a gosh-darned f**king battle live...

[> Wes... -- KdS, 04:52:53 09/18/03 Thu

Wilkins may be invulnerable, but he ain't superhumanly strong. Wes knows how to deal with the invulnerable now. Wesley heads into the next round, as a safe conatining Wilkins sinks down into the Mariana Trench.

Demons, Vampires, Souls and Morality -- Claudia, 11:36:36 09/18/03 Thu

I'm confused about something in Jossverse.

We are told that demons in general are souless beings who are not capable of maintaining a moral center. Yet, contrary to that - we have demons like Lorne, Whistler, Clem, Kamal, and half-demon Doyle. They are obviously capable of maintaining a moral center (well, I don't know about Clem, but one cannot deny that he is kind). So why are these demons capable of a strong moral center, yet vampires like Spike, Angel (in their souless states) and others are not?

[> It's Joss' wacky nature. However... -- VR, 12:52:40 09/18/03 Thu

as he said with Clem, he's a nice guy, but he still doesn't have a human soul.

Hence, the wacky

Drusilla and Angel - In London? -- Claudia, 12:48:47 09/18/03 Thu

Check out the following from the "Becoming, Part 1" script:

"London, 1860

DRUSILLA: Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. It's been two days since my last confession. Father?

Angelus: (having just eaten the confessor, goes along) That's not very long.

DRUSILLA: Oh, Father, I'm so afraid.

Angelus: The Lord is very forgiving. Tell me your sins.

DRUSILLA: I had... I've been seeing again, Father. Yesterday, the men were going to work in the mine. I had... a terrible fright. My stomach all tied up, and I saw this horrible... crash. My mummy said to keep my peace, it didn't mean nothing. But this morning... they had a cave-in. Two men died."

I have a question - well, several. Why does Drusilla speak with a Cockney accent? That would hint that she was born and bred in London. Yet, according to the "Becoming" script, she had a vision of several working being killed in a cave-in, while working in a mine. Working in a mine? In London? Shouldn't this segment be set somewhere in . . . oh, say Cornwall? Or Wales? And if so, why does Drusilla have a Cockney accent?

Will we be seeing Drusilla soon? I'd bet on it -- Seven, 13:09:56 09/18/03 Thu

I have a feeling we will be seeing a lot of Drusilla in eps to come. Here's my reasoning:

1. Spike is one the show now. This former couple hasn't been seen together (in "real time" anyway) since S5 buffy. Expect to see them together.

2. Here's my big argument. Every member of the fanged four have some traits in common: Darla -- died as a vampire and came back, reaquired her soul. Angel -- reaquired his soul, died as a vampire and came back Spike: Reaquired his soul, is coming back (in one form or the other.) Guess that leaves Dru as the odd (wo)man out. Could there be a possibility in this?

3. If anything, we can figure that AI (but maybe not W&H) are without a seer (now that Cordy is caput). How about this: Angel, in an attempt to help Spike, and help his company, re-ensouls Dru, finds one of those demons whose blood brings vamps back to life, and mixes her blood with it, making her human and giving Angel and the gang a seer.

thoughts? is this a possibility?


[> Re: Will we be seeing Drusilla soon? I'd bet on it -- JCC, 13:38:41 09/18/03 Thu

I think it would give a great oppertunity for a comedy episode this season. Dru comes to LA and finds Spike and Angel fighting together for good and decides to try and join AI in an attempt to get the family back together. It'd be fun watching Dru try to act good. Of course this would mean reducing Dru to a comic character, for one episode at least.

[> [> Re: Will we be seeing Drusilla soon? I'd bet on it -- grifter, 16:24:08 09/18/03 Thu

Nah, they did this with Harmony in s2 already. It sounds fun, but would be too repetitive I guess.

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