September 2003 posts
Angel's
soul re-re-visited -- skeeve, 07:42:55 09/25/03 Thu
Angel's body has been resouled three times.
First by gypsies.
The happiness clause gave Buffy a real big surprise.
The second time by Willow using *almost* the same spell as the
gypsies.
It's interesting that it wasn't the same spell. Willow probably
intended to use the same spell, but whoever possessed her had
another idea. The reason for the other idea is not clear.
The second spell had the same effect as the first.
A moment of true happiness and Angel lost his soul again.
The third time was again by Willow using the same spell or at
least the same incantation as she did for the second resouling.
Why?
When she de-ratted Amy, Willow demonstrated the ability to find
spells she wanted.
If there was a spell to resoul Angel without the happiness clause,
surely Willow could have found it and would have used it.
To me, the only reasonable conclusion is that there was no such
spell to find, ergo the happiness clause is an inherent part of
resouling.
It follows that the happiness clause also applies to Spike.
Replies:
[> Technically, Angel's re-souling is a curse, not a spell.
-- cjl, 08:05:51 09/25/03 Thu
Restoring the soul is an incidental part of the curse. The idea
of the curse is for Angel to feel miserable for the rest of eternity.
To do that, the gypsies had to give him back his soul, because
you can't feel guilty and miserable without it.
However, once you have a moment of pure happiness, you're not
feeling miserable anymore, the curse has been neutralized--and
the soul departs for the ether. Hello, Angelus. Given all that,
I don't believe there is any way to "get around" the
happiness clause.
As for Spike...well, who knows? What the heck was Lurky, anyway?
Satan? One of the PTB? He was obviously a legend in demonic circles,
something no sane hellspawn would even dare to approach. Until
we get a little more background on our cave-dwelling f(r)iend,
it's almost impossible to know whether the happiness clause is
there or not. (My guess? No.)
[> [> Re: Technically, Angel's re-souling is a curse,
not a spell. -- Claudia, 09:29:32 09/25/03 Thu
I think that Angel's soul is still cursed. As for Spike - no,
it's not.
I do wonder - if Angel's "cursed" soul had been used
in that battle against the First's ubervamps in "Chosen",
instead of Spike's, using the amulet, how would Buffy, Faith and
the new Slayers have fared?
[> [> Also keep in mind... -- ZachsMind, 10:00:25
09/25/03 Thu
CODEKEY: In the following, when I refer to "Angel" I
mean the souled guy we see the majority of the time, "Angelus"
is in reference to the soulless, darker side of the character
who comes out about once a season or so, and when I say "Angie"
I'm pointing at both of them - the whole package.
M'kay.
Willow has returned Angel's soul, while Angelus was the predominant
personality, twice now. She has done so through magic, but this
doesn't mean Angie's Curse is done by the same magic. The gypsy's
curse is a completely separate thing. Jenny and Willow had to
research the gypsy curse back in season two of BtVS in order to
learn how to return Angel's soul. However, they didn't attempt
to counteract the curse. Willow has done nothing to the curse.
The curse ensouled Angelus originally in order to cause Angelus
to feel guilt and remorse for eternity. When that eternal guilt
and remorse is interrupted by a moment's happiness, Angie is free
of the curse in that moment - it's temporarily negated. When this
happens, the Angel personality becomes dormant and Angelus becomes
dominant.
"Enyos: The curse. Angel is meant to suffer, not to live
as human. One moment of true happiness, of contentment, one moment
where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts,
and that soul is taken from him." - from BtVS s.2 Innocence
However the curse it not removed. It's simply temporarily suspended.
When Willow returns the soul to Angie's body and mind, Angelus
returns to the dormant state, and the grief and remorse resumes
in the form of Angel. See, the problem here is that the gypsies
expected the guilt and remorse to overwhelm Angelus and make him
incapable of functioning in any normal capacity, and for a time
they were successful. However, instead of just giving up on being
a part of humanity, Whistler and Doyle instilled within Angel
a desire to rise above the curse and take his journey towards
redemption.
Long before that however, Angie developed Dissociative Disorder.
The parts of Angelus' psyche which could not handle the remorse
retreated. The Angel we know and love consists of the more courageous,
willful, and resilient aspects of Angie's personality. We summarize
it to say the good side of him is Angel, and his evil side is
Angelus, but it's far more complicated than that.
Angelus fears the soul, which is why this whole curse thing works.
Remember back in season one of Buffy when The Master spoke with
The Anointed One about the cross?
"MASTER: We are defined by the things we fear.
(goes to the large cross) This symbol, these two planks of wood,
it confounds me. Suffuses me with mortal dread. But fear is in
the mind. (puts his hand on the cross and holds on while it burns)
Like pain. It can be controlled. (lets go) If I can face my fear,
it cannot master me."
The same is true of Angelus and the soul. He won't admit it, but
he's afraid of that thing. He doesn't want to feel the guilt and
remorse, and so Angie has taken that part of him that can't face
it and separated it from the part that can. In effect, splitting
the psyche in half. So the gypsy curse is only half working. And
the only way to irreversably uncurse Angie, is if Angelus embraces
the soul. He has to face his fear and merge with the half of him
that accepts it. So that the curse no longer holds any power -
so that the fear is gone.
[> [> Re: Technically, Angel's re-souling is a curse,
not a spell. -- skeeve, 10:25:32 09/25/03 Thu
Technically, the term "curse" includes a spell intended
to harm.
Whether or not one calls what Willow did a spell, my analysis
remains correct.
If there was a better way, Willow would have known about it and
would have used it, ergo there was no better way.
The happiness clause applies to Spike.
In any case, I don't expect ME to be quite that consistent.
Also, I don't see Spike getting any true happiness for a while.
The happiness clause might not matter for Spike.
Here is my theory on why true happiness seems to equate with making
love.
Angel lost his soul after making love with Buffy, but kept it
after having sex with Darla.
The distinction is important, not because Buffy made him happier
than did Darla, but because Angel was more focused on Buffy.
If "true happiness" means unadulterated happiness, then
the imporance of the difference is clear.
Buffy could completely occupy his mind to the exclusion of things
like grocery lists, the last case, and other things that would
adulterate his happiness.
[> [> [> Context, my dear skeeve, context. --
cjl, 10:47:17 09/25/03 Thu
I don't know how much sex had to do with it.
When Angel made love to Buffy, it was, undoubtedly, his happiest
moment in over 250 years of existence. He had a purpose in life,
and he had found that one girl in all the world who loved him
for who he was, and who he was capable of loving.
When Angel and Darla "worked the mattress" (so to speak),
it was, as Angel so aptly put it in Epiphany, "perfect despair."
He had lost his purpose in (un)life, and he went back to the bed
of the one person in the universe who represented the emptiness
of his former existence. Angel had about as much chance experiencing
"perfect happiness" by sleeping with Darla as he would
have had with 24-hour root canal surgery.
You'll note that when the shaman removed Angel's soul in "Awakening,"
Angel's subconscious duplicated his state of mind in "Surprise"--purpose
in the universe as a champion, and the love of a woman he respected
and could love in return. In fact, the events in Surprise and
the fantasy in Awakening were so close that he instinctively called
out Buffy's name at the end. (Didn't hurt that Cordy's hair was
kind of Buffy-ish at the time.)
Still say Spike's circumstances are completely different from
Angel's. We simply don't know HOW Lurky returned William's soul.
Angel's curse is magic performed by mortals; this is a whole 'nother
ball of wax.
[> [> [> [> Lurky -- Claudia, 10:58:03 09/25/03
Thu
Is Lurky evil? Is the demon who had restored Spike's soul, evil?
Not all demons in Jossverse are evil (for example, Whistler, Doyle,
etc.). What if Lurky is neither good or evil? And is simply just
is?
For Angel/Angelus to rise above the fear of the soul, wouldn't
that have to happen while he was in Angelus' state?
[> [> [> [> Re: Context, my dear skeeve, context.
-- skeeve, 15:53:32 09/25/03 Thu
I agree with most of that. I wrote more or less the same as some
of it.
It's true that _we_ don't know how Lurky returned Spike's soul.
What Willow could find out is another matter.
[> [> [> [> [> My impression of Lurky was that
he was close to all powerful -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:00:33
09/25/03 Thu
He could read a vampire's mind, summon monsters out of nowhere,
and return Spike's soul without even needing a ritual to do it.
My guess is that the only thing he couldn't do was leave that
cavern (remember, even the Beast could be stopped by a certain
mojo). That's why he made that agreement with Spike: in order
to lure victims to the one place where he has power, Lurky tells
the world that, if someone can pass his tests, he'll give them
one wish; if they lose, he gets to kill them.
That's just how it came off to me, anyway.
[> It does NOT follow that the happiness clause applies
to Spike. -- ZachsMind, 11:34:53 09/25/03 Thu
As explained elsewhere in this thread, Lurky didn't curse Spike.
Spike went to him and asked. Angel & Spike are nothing alike.
The only similarity is they're both vamps with souls. That's where
the similarity ends.
Here's the difference between them.
Imagine walking into your house one day after you'd been gone
for awhile, and learning that by no fault of your own, someone
just delivered an elephant to your house while you were absent
and it's now crouched in the middle of your living room. And now
you can't get rid of the darn thing. That's Angel.
Now imagine that for some unknown strange reason you personally
wanted a large elephant crouched in your living room. You went
to the Sears Roebuck catalogue. You asked zookeepers. You called
abroad. You researched price ranges and care and feeding techniques,
and went out of your way to go get this stupid elephant. And then
you order it yourself and it arrives at your door and you manage
to force it into your living room and there ya go. And now you
can't get rid of the darn thing. What were you thinking? That's
Spike.
Angelus had the soul unexpectedly forced upon him and wasn't ready
or willing to undertake the peril. It caused him to go mad and
spend a hundred years acting pretty erratic. He never asked for
it, but managed to make the best out of the situation.
Spike realized when he attacked Buffy sexually, that where he
was emotionally, he would never be able to be more of a man than
the beast he was, until he got his soul back. He was ready, willing,
and since he's handled it just a little bit better than his sire,
Spike was better equipped - better able to face the peril.
Angelus never wanted to understand the guilt and remorse over
all the things he had done.
Spike wanted to understand that guilt and remorse. He wanted to
see why Buffy spurned his advances and treated him like dirt.
So he could become a better man and one day learn how to deserve
her love. Irrational? Yeah, and once he got the soul he realized
the futility of it all. That there's bigger things in heaven and
earth than one can conceive. He learned what it means to be a
champion.
Angel's still figuring that out.
[> [> Re: It does NOT follow that the happiness clause
applies to Spike. -- skeeve, 16:14:48 09/25/03 Thu
A possibly more important difference might be that Spike more
or less had a soul before getting his back from Lurky.
More precisely he might have had a little bit of several souls.
We don't know the criteria for a vampire to be influenced by the
soul of a human, but the example of Darla and Conner's soul demonstrates
the possibility, albeit at very close range.
Most vampires hang out with other vampires.
Spike has been hanging out with humans.
Most vampires don't get more than a fang-length into a human.
Spike got more than a fang-length into Buffy.
Still, if Willow couldn't put Angel's soul back without the happiness
clause attached, it probably couldn't be done.
BTW another hint that the happiness clause is inherent in re-ensouling
is in the incantations used: they make no mention of happiness.
[> [> [> Willow -- Rook, 17:43:32 09/25/03
Thu
While Willow did find the spell to De-rat Amy, one instance of
an ability doesn't constitute evidence that she could do that
for anything.
Also, she summoned the de-ratting spell at the height of her magiccrack
addiction, and although her characterization was off on Angel,
it was pretty well established that she wasn't psychologically
ready to try and acces that kind of power again.
And while "curse" and "spell" may be one in
the same, there isn't any reason to believe that it was a spell
that gave Spike his soul back. It could easily have been some
innate power or ability of Lurky's that, while magical in nature,
wasn't something that a spell could duplicate.
[> [> [> Re: It does NOT follow that the happiness
clause applies to Spike. -- ZachsMind, 17:54:53 09/25/03
Thu
M'kay. Lemme try to put it this way. You're saying that if Spike
ever has sex now, he's gonna lose his soul. Let me assure you
that IF he ever has sex (which'll be at least a bit difficult
for him to pull off in the near future, considering) he won't
lose his soul. The Lurky guy didn't CURSE Spike. He just gave
him back his soul. The gypsy curse was not to give him his soul.
It was to cause him grief and remorse for all eternity. The only
way for the curse to get started was to resoul him. So Angelus
got resouled accidently the first time, as a byproduct of the
curse. It's not the same thing that Willow's been doing.
Willow has not been recursing Angel. She resouled him. The curse
never went away. They're two separate things.
[> [> [> [> Re: It does NOT follow that the happiness
clause applies to Spike. -- skeeve, 08:15:03 09/26/03 Fri
Resouling was not a side-effect of the Ritual of the Undead.
The incantation explicitly calls for resouling.
It does not explicitly call for grief and remorse.
Grief and remorse are a byproduct of resouling.
I hesitate to call them a side-effect because the grief and remorse
were the purpose for which the ritual was performed.
Happiness clause or not, methinks sex with Faith would not cause
Spike to lose his soul.
Sex with Buffy wouldn't necessarily do the trick.
It didn't do the trick the first time.
Angel didn't lose his soul until it was time for the afterglow.
That would seem to be a count against my focus theory.
Whether or not one agrees with the previous paragraph, I'm sure
we can agree that sex with invisible Buffy would not have caused
Spike to lose his soul had he had one at the time.
[> Spike wasn't cursed -- Doug, 15:58:25 09/25/03
Thu
(by the way, I'm operating off the assumption that souled and
unsouled entities are separate and destinct. This is amatter of
some debate, however I have taken this route because others have
said things on the other route.)
A curse is a magic that changes the nature of a being against
their will. Because it is a violation of another's will some means
of escape is a required part of the magic. Why is it required?
because it's a curse and because of the nature of curses there
has to be some means to escape it. This may be a time limit, measured
either in years or in generations of a family line; or an event.
The demon known as Angelus was cursed with the return of his human
soul, and the gypsies were sly enough to make sure that the method
of escape was prevented by the effect: with the souled vampire
permanently miserable there wasn't supposed to be any way for
him to acheive true happiness. We know how that story went if
we watch BtVS season 2. Now, it might be possible for the curse
to be modified to have a different escape; then they could de-soul
our dark avenger, curse Angelus, and possibly have Angel back.
But there would still be a way out, though it would not be the
same.
Now, as my title says Spike was never cursed, he went on a quest.
Now quests are virtually the opposite of curses. A quest has the
role of changing an individuals nature through the trials and
ordeals that they face; an individual wills something enough to
pass through the fire and reach the goal. Ultimately though it's
the journey that is frequently more important. Spike had a will;
to get his soul back. Now before someone launches into a speech
about how Spike's intentions weren't "pure" neither
are the intentions of most who quest, it's the will that matters.
This isn't a little whim, no one burns and bleeds for a whim,
this is his true will. And he passes his trials and through withstanding
the ordeal he changes his own nature. The actual scene where the
demon touches his chest is nothing but a formality; he wins the
sould through the quest, and changes himself to fit his own will.
Now, someone's going to ask "can't Angel go on a quest and
get his soul fixed that way?" You see, I've done some thinking
on that score and it wouldn't quite work. You see Angel was never
cursed, Angelus was cursed and Angel is the result. Which means
that the one who has to make the choice, the one who has to will
this and pass through the fire and all that to get that no-escape
soul is Angelus. Now, I'll freely admit that I don't think much
about Angelus, simply because the RPGs I play have spoiled me
for villains and Angelus is amazingly pathetic when standing next
to the nastier villains like an Earthbound, or House Decados,
or any of the Z'bri; to be blunt he reminds me of the GM created
villains you get when your GM has had a long week. So while I
myself don't thinnk their is a moth's chance in hell of Angelus
ever doing this I freely admit that many here are far more knowledgeable
about him than me, as well as far more interested, so I am willing
to allow that such a situation might occur where Angelus would
so choose. I remain skeptical however.
[> Question -- sdev, 22:31:30 09/25/03 Thu
The second time by Willow using *almost* the same spell as
the gypsies.
It's interesting that it wasn't the same spell. Willow probably
intended to use the same spell, but whoever possessed her had
another idea.
I have seen this said before and I don't understand what I am
missing. How do you know or why do you think the gypsy curse and
Willow's spell were disimilar?
[> [> Re: Question -- skeeve, 08:27:41 09/26/03
Fri
For the first two, I'm going by the quotes and translations on
Masq's web site.
I watched Orpheus the other night with closed captioning turned
on.
The third time around Fred and Willow used the same incantation
as the second time.
The only difference was that Fred spoke the first line.
Perhaps if nothing else works, a spell could force Angelus to
recite the Ritual of the Undead whenever Angel loses his soul.
For it to work, there would have to be an Orb of Thessela around.
Angel, say aahh.
Question/Answer About Spike's Background --
Claudia, 15:08:19 09/25/03 Thu
I came across this article, which is a behind-the-scenes look
at the Season 7 episode, "Lies My Parents Told Me":
http://www.dumb-inc.co.nz/delusions/articles/btvs114.html
After reading the article, I realized that Spike . . . or should
I say, William, actually came from a wealthy background.
Replies:
[> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background -- RJA,
15:20:05 09/25/03 Thu
Thats an interesting article, fascinating seeing how much thought
they put into every aspect of the show. Also reminded me of one
of the most memorable elements of LMPTM, which was Wood's sanctuary/cross
room.
And yes, William was from a wealthy background, considering that
episode and Fool For Love. While his accent as Spike doesnt reveal
it, only someone with money would be in a position to be in the
same room as Cecily and the other men. Nothing other than money
gave him the key to that particular door.
[> [> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background
-- Claudia, 15:24:39 09/25/03 Thu
The reason I had brought it up, is that while checking the archives,
I noticed there had been some kind of debate over his family background
. . . before Drusilla had turned him.
[> [> [> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background
-- RJA, 15:28:02 09/25/03 Thu
I hadnt seen that. Interesting, I had always assumed he was well
off (well from FFL onwards). Thats what makes some of his characteristics
as Spike more interesting.
[> [> [> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background
-- DEN, 15:38:10 09/25/03 Thu
William's family doesn't seem wealthy by the standards of the
time--he's not from the landed aristocracy,nor, I think, from
the "new" industrial money. But, to borrow the words
of an old music hall song, "his people are well off, you
know." I'd take a guess that his father was from the merchant/business
community--"in trade," but for a sufficiently long time,
and with enough success, that the family was moving into the ranks
of the lesser gentry, living on investments as opposed to direct
earnings. William almost certainly attended Oxford or Cambridge,
albeit one of the non-elite colleges. Had he not had his close
encounter with Drusilla, he would probably have lived after his
mother's death as what was called "a gentleman of independent
means," with a flat in London, membership in a club or two,perhaps
publishing a volume or two of verse at his own expense, marrying
late if at all--and possibly a discreet involvement on the fringes
of the gay scene. He'd almost certainly have been acquainted with
Oscar Wilde.
[> [> [> [> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background
-- RJA, 15:49:58 09/25/03 Thu
Interesting points. I still think that William would rank in terms
of the wealthy of the population (10-15%), but mainly because
so many people werent, and as a man with no obvious profession
(i.e. if he didnt need to work, then he's up there with some of
the more wealthy men), he would be not too far down the social
scale.
And again with teh visit to the club in FFL. It didnt seem so
much that he was looked down on for his position in society (which
he would have perhaps been had he been industrially wealthy),
but because he was a sap interested in poetry. The implication
seemed to be that his character, rather than status, gave rise
to scorn. But then Cecily's comment of him being beneath her could
indicate this nevertheless.
Either way, William's position in society would be such that if
transposed to the same position today, few of us would be on the
same level.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's
Background -- RJA, 15:51:15 09/25/03 Thu
Oh, and forgot what most interested me in what you said - why
do you think that he would have been on the fringes of the Victorian
gay scene?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Question/Answer About
Spike's Background -- DEN, 16:08:57 09/25/03 Thu
I agree, there's no doubt William's family would count in the
upper 15%, or even higher--the income differences in Victorian
England were FAR more significant than they are today, especially
in terms of buying power. I also think you're correct in saying
William is not rejected for "inappropriate" social pretensions,
but because he is an aspiring aesthete in an era that had little
room for that in a man.
As for William and the gay scene, that's partly a tip of the hat
to all the slashfic writers out there! But it was not at all uncommon
for males of his class who had difficulties relating to women
to develop at least homoerotic relationships, frequently also
sublimated (Holmes/Watson?!), and sometimes go on from there.
The familiar stereotype of the "sissy" who eventually
becomes a full-fledged "queer" is not a pure invention
of homophobes. On the other hand it was also possible for William
to find a woman who admired his sensitivity, appreciated his income,
and perhaps even found his poetry romantic, marry her, and father
a half-dozen children.Plenty of examples of both life histories
can be found in the literature.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Question/Answer
About Spike's Background -- RJA, 16:11:55 09/25/03 Thu
Well, that would have been an interesting turn of events for sure!
Now all we need to have is a flash back to William's strapping
man servant, and we'll all be happy ;-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The more likely scenario
-- Rook, 17:55:26 09/25/03 Thu
Is that William would have eventually run afoul of some attractive
gold digger and wound up penniless. His need for a romantic relationship,
and his willingness to totally subjugate himself to the whims
of whatever woman currently occupied his obsessions, would have
made him a prime target for someone looking to take advantage
of him.
[> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background -- DEN,
15:46:25 09/25/03 Thu
In analyzing the William/Spike issue it's interesting to note
that in WWI, a LOT of young gentlemen like William joined the
army as officers,then discovered or cultivated their "Spike
side" in the trenches. Even "war poets" like Graves
and Sassoon were regarded as extraordinarily brave, to the point
of recklessness, by the soldiers they commanded. After a life
spent being polite and repressed, there was pleasure to be found
in violence and destruction: "fists and fangs, all out."
Read some of the citations for medals in that war, and you'll
see Spike everywhere--oly with a proper accent!
Sorry for the second posting--it just didn't fit with the first
one
[> [> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background
-- RJA, 15:56:15 09/25/03 Thu
I'm not sure I quite agree with that. Certainly the War Poets
often dont glorify the War too much, and a great deal of it is
the tragedy of the waste of this destruction of the talented youth.
Wilfred Owen would be a case in point. Many of these poems are
harrowing, and tributes to the destruction of these young men.
Extraordinarily brave, but less so through a liking for violence,
but because of a sense of duty, honour and dedication, with the
price being heavy. I dont think their bravery came out of being
repressed for years, but rather a sense of what was important
and making the best of a bad job. But my reading of these poems
rarely gave the idea of satisfaction from that. But its been a
while, so maybe I'm wrong.
[> Re: Question/Answer About Spike's Background -- Cigarette
Smoking Vampire, 23:16:40 09/25/03 Thu
An interesting little tidbit in LMPTM is that Spike suggests that
he send the coach for Dr. Gull. I assume that this was meant to
be a reference to the Dr. Gull that was a noted physician and
the doctor to the Royal family. I imagine that Dr. Gull would
not have made house calls to just anyone.
[> [> Re: Dr. Gull -- Bronson, 15:31:42 09/26/03
Fri
I figured that William was just being dramatically concerned --
they might have been able to afford Dr. Gull, but I think it's
unlikely that the Doctor would have run off to see anybody outside
the Royal Family. By 1880 he'd been treating the Queen and her
offspring for nearly a decade. (I'm inferring the year by the
date on a "Fool For Love" transcript.)
Spike vs Lilah -- JBone,
20:10:10 09/25/03 Thu
Yeah, I'm fine. Slept at Wolfram & Hart. FYI, best place to be
in case of an apocalypse.
http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html
Check out the week's results at the
sweet16 page. Post your bloodthirsty comments here, at the
voting site or email me.
Replies:
[> Even though I'm starting the game with an 88% disadvantage,
-- Apophis, 21:29:39 09/25/03 Thu
I'm still sticking to my anti-Spike guns. Lilah may have been
decapitated, but Spike got all incinerated; there's not even enough
left to pin. And, since Lilah has a Get-Out-Of-Hell Free card
thanks to the Senior Partners, her death is merely an inconvenience.
Sadly, Spike has no evil demon bosses to pull his ashes out of
the fire; that's what a life of antisocial rebellion gets you.
So, since this was so short a fight, here's a little swimming
man to entertain you: ............... >-/0 .............
[> Oh, come on. This is pathetic. -- cjl, 22:26:28
09/25/03 Thu
I know Spike is, by far, the more interesting character, and richly
deserves his second shot at unlife on ANGEL. But are there no
red-blooded American men out there who will sell Blondie Boy out
for the hotness that is Lilah? Those legs, those eyes, that evil,
evil brain--really guys, you're hurting her feelings. (And Wes
showed us that, yes, she's got 'em.) Spike's going to win anyway,
so I'm voting for Lilah--we'll be in the W&H hospitality lounge
as I console her after her ignominious defeat.
[> Logically.... -- Abby, 01:31:41 09/26/03 Fri
..I'm going to have to vote for Spike, as much as I love Lilah.
This guy took out two Slayers: beautiful, clever and undead as
Lilah is, she's no Slayer. No superhuman abilities, no mystical
connection, and- most importantly, no mythological love/hate through
the ages legacy with which to entice and entrap Spike. Plus the
senior partners wouldn't give her any help: they're not picky
about the vampire with a soul they get in the end!
He's in love with pain. She'll give it to him. But he'll come
out with the coat intact and billowing. That chic wardrobe is
going to get dirty.....
btw: final round match-ups: oh my! These are fights I would love
to see. Great strategic positioning!
[> I really hate this-- -- MaeveRigan, 07:45:52 09/26/03
Fri
--having to vote for Spike on this round, I mean. Because he's
got a soul. No-soul, pre-chip Spike would have killed Lilah in
a minute and enjoyed every second of it. Even with a chip in his
head, he'd find some way to do it--hire a gang of minions or something.
Soul-vamp Spike wouldn't kill her, but since for him it's all
about Buffy, he won't have any of Wesley's ambiguity problems.
Bye-bye, Lilah.
[> Re: Spike vs Lilah -- Celebaelin, 08:50:43 09/26/03
Fri
I was going to vote for Lilah but in fact I think Spike has her
outclassed in every category except number of X chromasomes so
I can't quite bring myself to, despite the loss of the only non
1 to 4 seed left in the competition. Let us briefly consider the
subsequent possible permutations.
Since we were talking top Angel eps a few days
ago... -- KdS, 07:13:02 09/26/03 Fri
TopTen from the CityOfAngel website:
http://www.cityofangel.com/behindTheScenes/bts4/topTen.html
1: Joint 5 By 5/Dear Boy
2: Redefinition
3: Sleep Tight
4: Darla
5: Orpheus
6: Sacrifice
7: AYNOHYEB
8: Lullaby
9: The Prodigal
10: Dead End
Pretty uncontroversial choice, I think.
Replies:
[> Re: Since we were talking top Angel eps a few days ago...
-- Sofdog, 10:02:03 09/26/03 Fri
I worship at the altar of "Sleep Tight." Still kicking
myself for not taping it. I'd just decided to stop taping Angel
and that was the next ep. Frell!
Nothing against Julie Benz, but I wonder what Darla would have
been like if played by Hudson Leick.
[> No Home? -- Ponygirl, 12:03:41 09/26/03 Fri
I know many would argue but I'd place Home in my top 5. I'd also
have to kick Orpheus off my personal list, but it's nice to see
Sacrifice getting recognition. For a while I thought I was the
only one who appreciated its freakiness.
Can We Say . . . Threesome? -- Claudia, 07:49:51
09/26/03 Fri
Judging from the B/A vs. B/S feud that is raging among BUFFY & ANGEL
fans, has anyone ever considered that Buffy, Spike and Angel might
consider a threesome?
From "Chosen":
"BUFFY: You know, one of these days I'm just going to put
you two in a room and let you wrastle it out.
SPIKE: No problem at this end.
BUFFY: (daydreaming) There could be oil of some kind involved..."
Buffy doesn't seem averse to the idea.
Replies:
[> Hopped on *that* train late. -- HonorH, 08:10:33
09/26/03 Fri
Fanficcers have been writing that scenario since second season.
As for Buffy not being averse to the idea--with that much vampiric
prettiness, who would be?
A precursor to the new season of Angel --
Alison, 11:41:59 09/26/03 Fri
For the spoiled and unspoiled alike-- what do you hope for in
Ats S5? Plots lines, ships, gueststars, the works. (spoilers marked,
ofcourse)
I have to admit, I'm more nervous than excited, but I'm hoping
everyone's ideas will cheer me up.
Replies:
[> my re-posted hopes for Angel. -- Rochefort, 12:04:43
09/26/03 Fri
Here's one re-posted scene from next season that pretty much represents
my hopes for the new season! Keeping my fingers crossed! I'm nervous,
too!
Shot opens on Wesley. He is in a full body cat suit with painted
on whiskers and big fluffy feet. He is wearing his glasses and
holding his tail. He looks very Zoobalee Zoo.
Wesley: Meow.
Director: (voice over) Don't SAY meow. You have to DO meow.
(Camara pans to reveal a crowded stage in the theater district
of New York. Dancers are stretching their legs.)
Wesley: (looking frustrated. This has clearly been going on for
some time.) MEOW!
Director: (sighs) Look, Whyndam-Price, we've already demoted you
from Mr. Mestophelees to Cat #3. If you can't manage a real meow...
Wesley: No no, I'm sorry. I know I can do this. Please just give
me a chance. Meow. Meow. See it's getting better. Meow.
(A female dancer walks by in spandex. Clearly nobody else is dressed
in a cat suit.)
Dancer: Hey sweety, nice tail.
Wesley: (glancing at the dancer, he can't move his head that well)
Didn't anyone tell them I'm RUGGED now!? (then in response to
the director's heightened chagrin.) meow.
(Cut to Spike's apartment. It's very cool. He's moving around
the apartment making dinner, on the phone with:
Buffy: You brought him INSIDE!?
Spike: I had to, pet. I think he's got mites again. He's yanking
out whole patches of his hair.
Buffy: But, Spike, (trying to not be too bugged by it) darling,
after I'm done touring the country being free and finding myself
and slaying vampires I'm going to LIVE in that apartment with
you. And now it's going to have bugs.
Spike: I thought you'd want me to, doll. Plus, I feel bad. I took
over his show. Maybe that has SOMEthing to do with the state he's
in. I wouldn't think you'd want me to just LEAVE him out there
with god knows what desiese. He was playing with Parker again.
Buffy: Oh gross.
(Angel comes walking into the kitchen. He opens the fridge and
stares into it blankly.)
Angel: Who's on the phone?
Buffy: Well at least could you keep him out in the garage?
Spike: Love, it's an eighteenth story apartment there's no...
(takes the butter away from Angel, but not before Angel takes
a big bite out of it, wrapper and all). O.k., yeah I'll keep him
in the garage. (Gives Angel a good kick)
(Angel howls)
Buffy: Is that him? Tell him I said hey.
Spike: Buffy says hey.
(Angel stops chewing his butter. He looks mournfully at Spike,
his mouth full, a bit of wrapper sticking out.)
Spike: Will I see you in Detroit tonight, love? It's a play off
game.
Buffy: I'llll be there. It's not far from Cleveland. Hockey is
like ice-capades only... you with no shirt.
Spike: After the game, I can get us the whole rink baby. We can
make love on the ice.
Buffy: (we can hear her crinkle her nose, but giggle). You're
on the bottom. But you shouldn't talk that way in front of Angel.
You know how he is.
(Spike clearly doesn't. He looks at Angel.)
(Angel who has been digging in his ear, looks at his finger which
apparantly has mites on it. He stares intently at them, and then
eats them.)
Spike: Yeah...right, I know how he is. (covering the receiver)
XANDER! Give Angel a bath already.
(Xander walking in from the other room where he was watching t.v.)
Xander: Hey, I wanted to stake the guy a long time ago. Now he's
human, and it's too late to stake him, but that's not my fault.
YOU give him a bath.
Spike: I'm letting you stay in my apartment on my show.
Xander: Hey don't get all high and mighty. This is no Sunnydale,
and the second Willow gets HER own show, I'm going there anyway.
I mean there's nothing so great about being ....
Cordelia: (Off Screen) XANNNDER! Come make love to me!
Xander: being...
(Spike raises his eyebrows. Xander starts to go to Cordelia, but
Spike grabs Angel by the collar and hands him to Xander. Xander
holds his nose.)
Xander: Be right there, hon. Just gotta...wash Stink Guy.
Cordy: Oh you are NOT touching ME after you touch THAT thing.
Xander: (mumbling) Yeah well at least he doesn't have stretch
marks from having an alien baby.
Cordy: WHAT did you say!? WHAT did you say!? Xander Harris if
I wasn't TOTALLY in love with you again...
(Cordy follows Xander into the bathroom)
Buffy: What's going on? What's all the shouting?
Spike: Cordy is giving Angel a bath.
Buffy: Hm. Hey did you hear from Wesley? Willow says they demoted
him. I hope he's doing o.k.
Cut to New York:
Wesley: (taking large leaping dance steps across the stage his
tail flying behind him, and sounding like a kid firing a toy gun)
Meow! Meow! meowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeow! MEOw! Meow! MEOW!
Back to apartment:
Spike: Not that I'm not loving life here in L.A. like I've never
loved life before but...
Buffy: I know. We're not together.
Spike: I just wish you were ... you know, a baked cookie.
(Suddenly a little box that has been sitting by the cookie jar
that has a zig-zag door, bursts open to reveal the head of the
weird green guy with horns.)
Weird green guy with horns: Wish!? Did someone say WISH!?
Spike: Oh ....b-looody ell.
Buffy: Spike!? SPIKE! (she screams) I'm... I'm...I'm a...
Spike: (in a panic) I'll be right there, baby. (He hangs up)
(Suddenly Stink Guy comes running out of the bathroom naked with
patches of his own hair floating off him and bubble bath all over
him. He trips over the couch and falls hard on his face. Then
he runs out the door blindly.)
Xander: Hey!
Spike: Oh bugger.
Willow: (Walking in from the hall) WHAT was THAT?
Spike: Stink Gu-- Angel ran off. (swelling suspenseful music)
And I've got to go to Cleveland. Buffy is a cookie.
(commercial)
[> [> It's a beautiful vision -- Ponygirl, 12:31:00
09/26/03 Fri
I think I can safely say that we all shares your hopes for the
new season. Except for the hockey. I hate hockey, and the Red
Wings suck, but other than that it's all good.
[> [> LMAO!!! If only.... -- s'kat, 13:20:57 09/26/03
Fri
[> [> Hee! :) I love you Rochefort. I feel better already.
-- Alison, 20:10:01 09/26/03 Fri
[> [> [> yes, it's all about getting through these
difficult trials together. -- Rochefort, 23:29:35 09/26/03
Fri
[> [> And another vision... -- Random, 18:40:15
09/28/03 Sun
A new vision for a legally-blind Rocheforte
[Scene opens in modern office at Wolfram and Hart, dimmed by the
necrotempered glass. The door opens and Angel turns on the light.
The illumination, rather than filling the room, slowly drips down
onto the carpet, pooling in an icky peroxide-hued puddle of goo.
Angel watches distastefully as it coalesces. Finally, the surface
of the goo hardens into a distinctly Spike-shaped form.... ]
Spike: [spluttering] Bloody 'ell! That's what my
enlightenment was all about? [combing the goo through
his hair, a fairly futile move since it already looks exactly
like it did back before his incandescence] Didn't fancy being
part of the electrical grid at the sewage plant. [slaps the
side of his head with his palm, dislodging more goo from his ears]
didn't fancy it at all
Angel: Spike? Why are you staining my nice new carpet?
Spike [muttering, oblivious to Angel] Bleedin' rolling
blackouts. Giving me 'eadaches. And alway cutting me off just
when 3rd reel at the PussyCat Theatre gets interesting.
[Angel, realizing that Spike is acting dumber than usual, sighs
and returns to his desk to brood while waiting for Spike to make
some sense. He broods. Spike raves. Angel broods some more, slipping
from Scowl Number 43 (contemplating past misdeed 1803-1817) to
Scowl Number 117 (worrying about fluffy Pomerian puppies). Spike
rants. Angel moves on to Scowl Number 86 (agonizing over May 3,
1799 -- a particularly unsavory day in which he re-enacted the
Twelve Days of Christmas, Vlad the Impaler-style.) Finally, Spike
starts coughing up goo in a loud hacking fit and Angel goes to
thump him on the back]
Angel: [solicitous] Feeling better?
Spike: Bugger off, mate! Acting all superior cause your
epiphany didn't involve ConEd and overbilling!
Angel: [trying with complete lack of success not to
smirk] Come on. I've known Buddhist who would have killed
to be able to do what you did. Besides, you never did have enough
sense to come in out of the light.
Spike[growling] You're pushing it, you stupid bugger.
Angel: Whoa, Spikey-poo. You'll bring out the Angelus in
me, and your ego and...[glancing down]...and other parts are already
bruised enough
Spike: [glancing at the dark marks splotching his skin]
What the fu...?!? I'll have you know, mate, that high-tension
wires are really bad on those sorts of things.
Angel: I'm sure.
[A knock on the door disturbs this meeting of true minds. As
Angel turns to go answer it, the door swings open. Standing outside
are Gunn and Fred. Gunn looks positively delighted about something,
and there is a slight hint, just around the eyes, that the something
in question is not quite savory. Fred, on the other hand, seems
downcast. She hold a white lab coat slung over her left arm]
Gunn: [glancing down at the prone, still-gelatin coated
form of Spike] Damn! That's is whitest white boy I've ever
seen. Make Seigfreid and Roy look like Bob Marley and George Clinton.
Hell, Angel, he's even whiter than you! And he looks like he fell
in a pit of lard.
[Spike sputters in outrage, but can't seem to manage coherent
English. He stumbles to his feet, still babbling. Immediately,
everyone's eyes focus downwards. Gunn looks even more delighted,
if possible, while Fred turns red for a moment, then starts to
giggle involuntarily. Angel doesn't react at all for a second,
then turns away. A muffled sigh of relief emerges from his direction,
and when he turns back, the smirk is back, a fully self-satisfied
one now.]
Angel: High-tension wires, eh?
[crickets chirp]
Gunn: So, anyway, we came to tell you that Lilah's holding
a Halloween party downstairs.
Angel: But Halloween isn't for another three weeks
Gunn: Yeah, I noticed that.
Fred: She said something about the real date being...tacky
or something?
Angel: [with a knowing nod] Ahh, right....[glancing
at Fred's face] What's the matter?
Fred: Oh, it turns out that cutie who ran the labs...remember
him?
[Angel nods]
Fred: Apparently, he's like, an ex-vampire W & H brought
back he was staked. They're heavy into recycling, it seems.
Angel [starting] You mean, like --
Fred: [interrupting] No, not like her. He's more
of a "made from 90 percent recycled product"-type deal.
He has a soul now, but every other minute, he starts crying about
it. Then he goes out and threatens to kill people. It's really
getting to me.
[Spike starts to speak, then thinks better of it]
Angel: Well, you'll have to deal with that yourself. I
got my own problem, and I don't know how to operate the internal
communications system to get a wet-vac up here to clean this mess
on my carpet.
Spike: Now look here! [everyone looks. Spike starts
to get flustered as he realizes he's still standing there naked]
I mean, I want to make clear that I've been sent by the PTB to
help you blighters!
Angel: [raising an eyebrow] Exactly how do you plan
to do that?
Spike: What do you mean? I'm the Big Bad. I helped save
the world. Almost managed to destroy it on a couple occasions
too. You know what I'm good for!
Angel: Kindling? Weenie roasts? Clorox ads?
Spike: Grrrrrr...
Gunn: Say, ain't you the dude who sleeps with big dolls?
Spike: It was a bloody robot! I had it made cause...[trails
off]
Gunn: Yes?
Spike [looking embarassed] Ummm, nevermind.
Angel Well, as fascinating as this all is, I need to get
back to brooding. So if one of you will tell them to send up someone
from the janitorial staff on your way down...
[Fred and Gunn exit, closing the door behind them. As they
walk down the hall, Angel's voice can be heard faintly in the
distance.]
Angel: Okay Spike, with Merle gone AWOL, we need a new
butt-monkey around here...
Spike: [spluttering] What the bloody 'ell?!? I'm
nobodys...[his voice trails off. A moment of silence. Then,
faintly:] okay. A job's a job.
Finis
[> [> [> How about... -- Celebaelin, 19:24:45
09/28/03 Sun
Angel and Spike find a lucrative market in running a not
entirely evil computer dating agency for lovelorn demons.
The matches are designed to be close enough so they last until
AI can get the surveillance contracts from suspicious 'others'
and W&H can pick up the lucrative alimony/palimony trade.
There is also money to be made in the area of manipulation of
breach of promise in convoluted pre-nups, which again become something
of a W&H speciality. All things are posssible when you are availed
of the appropriate information.
My own lawyers (Godwater, Carvup, Grabbit and Hyde) have advised
me to make clear that neither Spike nor Angel is in any way
implicated in the break-up of any of the relationships which their
computer agency helped to forge.
Later, following dissagreements regarding direct remuneration
as opposed to fringe benefits, Spike and Angel have a confrontation
of apocalyptic proportions which, in truth, having finally come
to accept that they really can't stand each others company,
they both play their own little private parts to precipitate.
C
[> My hopes for Angel and the Fang Gang for Season 5
-- cjl, 13:12:45 09/26/03 Fri
ANGEL - I want to see Angel as I've come to know and love him:
somber, cranky, tortured, snarky, whip-crack smart, menacing,
borderline evil--and capable of expressions of love and generosity
that leave me completely flummoxed.
WES - If Angel insists on casting himself as Superman and chairman
of the Justice League, I want Wes to be Batman--the loner who
works with the group only because the group helps him fulfill
his individual mission. In a recent JLA plotline, the rest of
the League found out that Bats kept a portfolio on the strengths
and weaknesses of his "friends," and he was fully prepared
to put them all down like dogs if they ever got out of hand. I
WANT WES TO DO THAT.
GUNN - He's lived his entire life on the edge of destruction;
now, for the first time, Gunn is doing more than just surviving--he
has access to real power. Does he give in to the siren call, or
will he be able to use his radical self-improvement to his own
ends? Like Willow in Buffy S6, Gunn may be the supporting character
who goes off the edge as a contrast to the series hero. Similarly,
I hope that, by the time 5.22 comes around, Gunn remembers why
he started demon fighting in the first place and comes back to
his family.
FRED - Fred comes into her own. Head of Wolfram and Hart's R&D division,
and given the appropriate respect by her colleagues and subordinates.
Please, no extended romantic plotlines, which tend to play up
her weaknesses. Also, I hope they clearly define Fred's areas
of expertise; in a world where science and mysticism closely interact,
I'd like to see Fred as the top scientist who brings in Wes and/or
Lorne when she needs mystical expertise.
LORNE - Give the green guy a new club, with the occasional high
power musical guest star to reflect his status (that is, if they
can afford a high-power musical guest star). With all his talk
about balance in "Home," I'd like Lorne to be a bit
more mysterious this season--perhaps keeping crucial information
about the tug-of-war between Angel and the Senior Partners from
BOTH sides.
SPIKE - Many snarky, funny, vicious arguments with Angel--to the
point where Broody Boy almost wants to stake himself from sheer
aggravation. No romantic plotlines, ESPECIALLY if a certain blonde
Slayer comes in for an episode or two. An ultimate realization
that the events of "Chosen" were the start, and not
the end of the journey.
HARMONY - Comic relief only. She must remain vain, empty-headed
and emotionally vulnerable. (Wouldn't be our Harm otherwise.)
Would love it if she decides to get her soul back, because it
seems to be the fashionable thing to do...
GUEST STARS - Joss and the WB seem to be determined to bring in
Buffy. (If we must, we must.) Frankly, I'd prefer Darla, Dru,
Lilah, and Lindsey.
Oh, and one more thing....
CORDELIA - A dignified exit.
[> [> In the batcave -- Ponygirl, 20:00:45 09/26/03
Fri
I like your thoughts on everyone, especially Wesley. I'm thinking
though that with the gang we have an interesting situation - a
Justice League where everyone sees themself as Batman. Angel's
got the dark and broody thing, deciding and dispensing justice;
Wes, dark, broody, plus with gadgets and files and so many secrets;
Fred, relying on science and planning to outdo stronger opponents;
Gunn (and this is speculation) trying for the suave Bruce Wayne
exterior, using the wealth and power to best advantage. Lorne,
well, he's really more of Alfred, making the quips and getting
into the liquor cabinet (c'mon,you know that's what Alfred was
doing). Makes for an interesting, and chafe-y, dynamic.
[> [> cjl -- Rochefort, 22:06:04 09/26/03 Fri
I like your posts. Your take on Buffy is similar to mine. If Wesley
isn't going to be in Cats, for instance, I agree that he should
be Bat Man.
[> [> No romantic plotlines? -- shambleau, 00:01:38
09/27/03 Sat
Well, if the blonde Slayer you speak of does appear, I don't see
that (romantic plotline) as such a terrible way to go. The romantic
triangle in Sanctuary, even if it was all in the imagination of
Ms. Stabsalot, led to some mighty fine pyrotechnics. On the board
I frequented then, the debates that raged about who was right
or wrong consumed many thread hours and were hella fun.
And, getting in the last word, Angel had his head up his ass.
[> [> [> Re: No romantic plotlines? -- celticross,
10:43:37 09/27/03 Sat
Oh, ick, no. Honestly, I'm not interested in the slightest in
seeing an episode of Angel and Spike both making cow eyes at Buffy.
Guys, she's not the be all and end all of women! Move on!
Oh, and shambleau? No way. Buffy was completely taking it out
on the wrong person. :)
[> [> [> [> See? We're arguing already! Fun, fun,
fun! <claps hands> -- shambleau, 10:54:44 09/27/03
Sat
[> My Vision of the New Season (Well Known Casting Spoiler)
-- Finn Mac Cool, 14:44:14 09/26/03 Fri
First off, something has to be done about Cordelia. Her plotline
just cries for some extra resolution. I'm thinking that the PTBs
send Angel a videotape or DVD. When he plays it, he finds a final
message from Cordelia. It's a heartfelt and touching scene. But,
almost more importantly, something on the tape leads Angel to
some secret files which reveal the truth: Wolfram & Hart is keeping
Cordelia in her coma as a means to keep Angel in their pocket.
Angel then makes a violent attack against his own company in an
effort to free Cordelia. In the process of the fight, Angel kills
or injures most of the security team. He doesn't get far, though,
before his injuries overcome him and he can't move anymore. W&H eventually
tracks him down, but he's hidden Cordelia somewhere where they
can't find her. How that plotline might be resolved, I do not
know.
Second, I think Lorne's celebrity clients would make for some
wacky subplots. One I think would be cool is for Alyssa Milano
(one of the stars of "Charmed") to be attacked by an
obsessed fan who's used magic to emulate the powers of the demons
who appear on "Charmed". She goes to W&H for help, and
Lorne handles her case. I think that would be an interesting quasi-crossover.
Something I also really, really want to see is for one of Lorne's
clients to be Andy Hallet. Aside from the bizarreness of seing
a character interact with the actor who plays him, in the middle
of their conversation, someone could bring them coffee, and, in
unison, they say, "Thanks, sweetcheeks."
Third, Spike, by nature, will bug the living hell out of Angel.
As such, I want them to be forced to work together many, many
times. They hate each other so much that it's positively charismatic.
Fourth, this one may not translate so well to screen, but an interesting
theory I've had is that there are no Senior Partners. For the
thousands of years it's existed, Wolfram & Hart has really been
run by Mesektet (aka the White Room Girl). You see, she was smart
enough to realize that, as the head of an evil empire, every good
guy on the planet would be looking for a way to kill her. So she
disguises herself as a messenger for some greater powers that
no one ever sees; this way she gets to rule Wolfram & Hart while
decreasing her risk of assassination. The reason Angel and Co.
got the offer from W&H is that, after Mesektet's death, another
extradimensional entity (the panther we saw) takes her place.
Being under new management and all, Wolfram & Hart's policies
are bound to change towards their greatest enemies.
Fifth, I want Slayers to turn up at some point. With Angel having
his thumb on top of the supernatural world in LA, and Slayers
popping up all over, it would be weird if a few didn't at least
turn up. The very least they could do is make reference to it.
Sixth, I'd like to see our favorite law firm from hell do some
actual lawyer work. For the past couple years, the whole lawyer
aspect has pretty much been dropped and they've just been the
local evil organization.
Seventh, given that Season 5 is supposed to have a lighter tone,
and how it deals with a not-so-metaphorical "selling out",
I want to see some guy pick a fight with Angel, get knocked unconscious,
and be revealed as a professional boxer. When word of this gets
out, Angel's suddenly got offers to be in boxing matches, where
his vampire strength really comes in handy. He's so good that
he gets close to being the world champion. Right before that fight,
he gets attacked by some of the boxers he's beaten (if the image
of that fight scene doesn't make you laugh, imagine it harder).
He takes them all down and heads out to the match. However, clearly
Angel's attention could best be focused elsewhere, so Fred slips
him a strength reducing drug, causing him to go down with the
first punch in the championship fight.
Lastly, we get to Connor. I'm not sure how he'll appear, or how
he should appear, but something I want to see is Angel with a
picture of himself, Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn, and the like, and
sketch Connor into it. I just think that would be a good way to
convey Angel's feelings.
All right, anyone think my ideas are crazy?
[> Queen C bows out....my way :) -- Nino,
15:10:03 09/26/03 Fri
As I have made abundantly clear...I love my Cordy. Her final storyline
should be well-timed (not done as an after thought), subtle (nothing
over the top) and memorable (bringing closure to a great character,
and letting her leave her mark on the Buffyverse in style).
This is what I had in mind...(only the idea in my head, I'm not
saying this is the only way...and maybe it sucks, but it makes
me happy).
2-3 episode arc...1 ep is too quick and not gonna cut it for me,
especially since we were told CC might be at recurring status,
before the rug was pulled from under us saying there are no concrete
plans to bring her back at all. She deserves an arc, not an ep.
Written by Drew Goddard. Because he has proven that he can write
characters we love the WAY we love them, even though he is kind
of a newbie. He's never written Cordy, but he writes like a fan,
and I think this arc needs a fan's touch.
I think it would be appropriate, somewhere midseason, for some
Scoobs to show up. Xander and...anyone...Xander is key guy here.
He wouldn't come alone...someone more important would be with
him (Willow, Giles, etc.) but it would not be when Buffy comes
back...she would upstage Queen C.
So Xan-man and someone else come to LA to deal with something
Slayer related...possibly locating some new Slayers, or some other
business of that nature. Cordy wakes up at the end of the ep they
come to town (possibly after a semi-touching scene with Xander
and her unconscience body). Here's the key...the present Scoobs
are at odds with the boys at W&H...for some reason they have
conflicted interests. When Cordy awakes and realizs that the Fang
Gang is heading W&H, and that Xander/Scoob are at odds with
them, she must decide whether she wants to stay with Angel.
Then...a touching (and "Selfless"-esque) scene where
Cordy expresses her feelings of failure. She thought she was fighting
evil all these years, when really, she was just a pawn for Jasmine's
plan. Has she really done anything worthwhile? Is her life meaningless?
Xander comes to the the rescue reminding her of the bitch she
used to be, and how she transformed herself into someone selfess
and willing to serve (no romantic undertones please...not necessary!).
His speech convinces her that she can make a difference...but
she cannot stay with Angel.
After whatever issue that Xander came to town for is resolved,
Cordy makes her choice. She tells Angel and crew that she loves
them, but cannot support them and their decision to run W&H....her
decision echoes a growing sentiment that maybe it wasn't such
a good idea to run an evil lawfirm....her decision marks a turning
point in the season...from now on, the Fang Gang will truly feel
conflicted as the new heads of W&H and will question their own
motives and actions.
Cordy says "I love you" and "Goodbye" leaving
with the Scoobs to help them on whatever "missions"
they should continue on to...her future is uncertain, but she
is ready for a new start, with an old group of friends.
Sappy? maybe....but it makes me happy to think that this might
happen....sigh....i love you cordy! Any other/better ideas? What
say you of the Xander guest spot?
[> [> Certainly much better than leaving her in a coma
in a back room of the abandoned hotel! -- CW, 15:17:04
09/26/03 Fri
[> [> It works for me. -- Rochefort, 23:32:43
09/26/03 Fri
[> My hopes and dreams? -- Honorificus (The Saucy And
Sweet One), 20:33:43 09/26/03 Fri
Of course you'd ask! And why, after all, should I deny enlightenment
to poor, pathetic mortals? In no particular order:
1. Lilah. A woman that fashionable simply cannot stay absent for
long. Resurrected by the Senior Partners, she stages a coup and
gains full control over W&H, pausing only to shtup every member
of Angel's little gang during her rise to power.
2. Spike. What a pathetic ending he made, eh? Well, no more! The
Senior Partners restore him to the full glory of his badass self,
and he becomes Lilah's consort. The two unleash Hell on Earth,
and then Spike goes Slayer hunting!
3. Angel. Three words: lose the soul. First thing on our darling
Angelus' agenda? Have Willow killed. Then he starts having real
fun.
4. Wesley. Ah, the good guy to tempt the bad girls of the underworld!
He discovers Angel's deception and goes all snarly and stubbly
and badass again, providing a needed antagonist to W&H (while
having occasional threesomes with Lilah and Spike).
5. Cordelia. Can stay right where she is, unless she wakes up
insanely evil. That would be acceptable. Yes, most acceptable.
6. Gunn and Fred. Eh, no, on second thought, I can't be bothered.
7. Lorne. Goes with the flow, of course. Once all his Lust Objects
have gone over to the dark side, he'll go, too. I like a demon
you can yank around by his horns!
8. Connor. Daddy's little demon--or the poor, dull human whose
facade he's been forced into--gets vamped by Spike and rather
likes it.
In other words, a happy ending for all!
[> a few scattered ideas -- monsieurxander,
13:46:37 09/28/03 Sun
Connor need not show up, but the fact that he was erased from
everyone's memories needs to be addressed. The Fang Gang notice
gaps and "plot holes" in their memories... Lilah lets
it slip to Wes about the whole ordeal, who, along with the others,
has a total cow... similar to the "mental rape" issue
between Tara and Willow in BtVS S6. Hilarity ensues.
Spike and Fred! Spike and Fred! Spike and Fred!!!! (It's just
random enough that it could work...)
Angel and Co., near midseason or as part of the finale-arc, go
about working a mondo spell (possibly with Willow) that souls
every vampire everywhere... Harmony decides that in order to reach
redemption she's going to give out free makeovers and fix up her
"friends" on blind dates. Drusilla, being insane enough
already, is driven OVER THE BRINK, and goes on an uber insidious
killing spree, and has to be talked down by both Spike and Angel.
Wes finds a way to free Lilah from her contract... As the finale's
major cliffhanger, he strikes a deal with W&H so that he trades
places with her.
Lilah-will she come back? -- David, 13:55:58
09/26/03 Fri
Hi does anyone want Lilah to come back because I would love to
see her and Wes together. She was the coolest villain ever. Does
anyone know if any spoilers talk about her?
Replies:
[> Re: Lilah-will she come back? -- skeeve, 15:02:20
09/26/03 Fri
Lilah has a contract.
Fool For Love - Spike or Drusilla? -- Claudia,
15:05:18 09/26/03 Fri
Who was the real fool for love in the relationship between Spike
and Drusilla?
Many say it was Spike, especially since Drusilla had cheated on
him with Angelus during late Season 2, and eventually dumped him
for good in South America.
My answer? I think it was Drusilla.
I believe that Drusilla loved Spike a lot more than many realized.
I also believed that the main reason she cheated with Angelus
in the first place was to make Spike jealous, because she feared
that the peroxide vamp was developing feelings for Buffy.
Drusilla may have seen signs of Spike's feelings toward Buffy
in episodes like "Halloween", when he seemed preoccupied
with studying the Slayer's fighting moves and in "What's
My Line? - Part 2", Spike's words before his confrontation
with Buffy seemed to hint that he was looking forward to more
than just fighting the Slayer. And Drusilla had witnessed that
moment.
I think the scene in "What's My Line - Part 2" had finally
led Drusilla to resort to the jealousy game, especially after
Angelus had resumed control of the family. But that all blew up
in her face, when Drusilla's infidelity led Spike to form an alliance
with Buffy in "Becoming, Part 2". Poor Drusilla. Can
you imagine how she must have felt when she realized that her
love had formed an alliance with Buffy, of all people, to betray
her and Angelus?
For quite a while, I had believed that she genuinely preferred
Angelus over Spike, until I saw that scene from "Fool For
Love":
DRUSILLA: Why can't you kill her?
SPIKE: You're the one who keeps bringing her up!
TITLE CARD: South America, 1998
SPIKE: I haven't said a word about the bloody Slayer since we
left California. She's on the other side of the planet, Dru!
DRUSILLA: But you're lying! I can still see her floating all around
you, laughing. Why? Why won't you push her away?
SPIKE: But I did, pet. I did it for you. You keep punishing me.
Carrying on with creatures like this.
CHAOS DEMON: Okay, you guys obviously have a thing going on here.
DRUSILLA: I have to find my pleasures, Spike. You taste like ashes.
SPIKE: (re: demon) So this is my fault now?
CHAOS DEMON: (to Spike) I didn't know she was seeing somebody.
(off Spike's look) I should take off.
SPIKE: Yeah, why don't you do that?
The demon blows a kiss to Drusilla, then walks off.
DRUSILLA: You can't blame the ghoul, Spike. You're all covered
with her. I look at you... all I see is the Slayer.
Hmmm. I guess she had figured it was best to dump Spike, before
she could endure the humiliating experience of being rejected
by him. Unfortunately for Drusilla, it was not meant to be. For
in the end, Spike did reject her for Buffy - and right in front
of the Slayer in "Crush". Poor Drusilla.
In the end, I believe that she had dumped Spike to avoid being
rejected by him, for Buffy.
Replies:
[> Both--Drusilla certainly is -- Maura, 10:43:00
09/27/03 Sat
I think you're right that Drusilla is a fool for love, and I agree
that the depth of her love for Spike is sometimes underestimated:
for example, when she seems to choose Angelus over Spike.
I'm not sure I agree that Dru's main reason for being with Angelus
in S2 was to make Spike jealous. I don't see evidence of that
in her behavior with the two of them, except insofar as she clearly
revels in being a point of contention between them. But I think
that may be more because it makes her feel important than because
she's trying to pull Spike away from Buffy. I think all you mention
could certainly be a factor but maybe not the main one.
Dru's leaving Spike seems to be the result of a mix of factors:
Spike's feelings for Buffy, Spike's betrayal of Angelus and Dru,
Spike's not being "monster enough." Based on the various
accounts we get of the break-up, it seems like all these factors
are in play and all are interrelated and probably existing at
various levels of consciousness/unconsciousness for both Spike
and Dru.
Back to Angelus: Dru certainly loves Spike, but she loves Angelus
too, and I think an important reason for her turning to Angelus
in S2 is simply that he was paying attention to her, and it gave
her a chance to "have him" for a while. (I do, by the
way, think that Angelus' main reason for taking Dru from Spike
was to make Spike jealous; he just doesn't care that much about
Dru.)
As for why Dru seems to choose Angelus over Spike, I agree with
your reading that Spike's betrayal in "Becoming--Part 2"
was shocking to her: he was betraying the family, after all. That's
ample reason for her to turn on him in that instance. I also think
that Dru may have a general tendency to give Angelus priority
over Spike, not because she loves him more but because he is the
"Father," the head of the household, so to speak, who
simply does claim priority by position. (I think her Catholic
background figures in here a lot.)
All these issues really make me hope they get Drusilla onto _Angel_.
[> Re: Fool For Love - Spike or Drusilla? -- sdev, 13:58:24
09/27/03 Sat
Was Drusilla actually unfaithful or just playing up the jealousy
angle to make herself feel desirable? I can see this as the perverted
quality of vampire love, akin to Spike's I'll torture her till
she likes me again, rather than Drusilla really not loving Spike
any more. And Angelus, likewise, was he merely tormenting Spike
with the possibility rather than the actuality? This was never
clear to me.
Also, this may be stretching things a bit, but could Drusilla's
perception, in FFL, of Spike's love for Buffy be based on her
vision of the future when he does begin to love her, circa S5?
Does it have to be that Spike already did love Buffy when he was
with Drusilla in Brazil? Drusilla's reality is not the same as
everyone else's.
Anyone read Kushiel Trilogy? (no spoilers)
-- mamcu, 06:24:49 09/27/03 Sat
Have any of you read any of the Kushiel Trilogy (Kushiel's
Dart, Kushiel's Chosen, Kushiel's Avatar) by Jacqueline Carey?
I'm in the middle of the third book and would be interested to
hear what you think of it. I like them very much indeed--wonderful
fantasy/rewritten history, but more erotic than much of that kind
of writing.
Replies:
[> I've read the first two -- Vickie, 10:43:12 09/27/03
Sat
I really enjoyed them. The alter-history/alter-geography aspect
is a little confusing--I occasionally got distracted figuring
out the our-world parallel rather than being carried away. Phedre,
the main character, is quite mesmerizing in her internal life.
The minor characters never appear flat to me, but are full persons
even if the story is not theirs. Melisande is one of the very
best adversaries I've read.
I especially like the religious aspect of the series. It appears
to be this-world conventional at the beginning, then really twists
the reader's mind.
I'm looking forward to Kushiel's Avatar.
[> [> Third book -- mamcu, 08:56:52 09/28/03 Sun
I'm trying not to stay up all night reading Kushiel's Avatar
. I really find the whole question of Phedre's nature intriguing,
and this book begins to give it a deeper meaning. It seems like
a trilogy that women would either love or hate--the female characters
are so strong, but also so traditionally feminine in some ways.
I've been looking for a good discussion site on these books--do
you know of any?
[> Books one and two, yes -- fresne, 10:50:36 09/29/03
Mon
Huh, what synchronicity, the last time Kushiel came up I was avoiding
meeting minutes as well. Of course, the frequency of meetings
does somewhat assist this.
Anyway, since, I want to chime in, I'll link briefly to a some
posts discussing maschochism/choice last May, which references
Kushiel and his dart, choice, avatar.
Lust
and S6, May 2003
Phedre of the ill-starred name. Or well starred depending.
Thus far I've only read books one and two and am waiting for book
three.
In these yawning to Octoberish days of autumn, what aspects of
the books do we want to contemplate. Also, has anyone here seen
the movie The Secretary?
Completely
OT - my travels this fall -- Caroline, 06:55:01 09/27/03
Sat
Hey everyone!
I know it's been a couple of months since I've posted but I plead
the excuse of extreme busy-ness. As some of you already know,
I've made some major changes recently in my life and I'm planning
to begin a road trip in just a few days to the west coast. I'm
definitely stopping off in LA and San Francisco but the focus
of the journey will be the natural wonders of this country - the
Badlands, Yellowstone, Yosemite and as many other national parks,
reservations and rodeos that I can manage. Call it part of my
education in becoming an American. Needless to say, I'd love to
meet (and meet again) as many of you as I possibly can on my walkabout.
I'm already in discussion with some of the San Francisco crowd
about a meet there in mid-October sometime. My connection to the
internet will be spotty but I'll try to check in whenever I can.
Thanks.
Replies:
[> Re: Have a wonderful journey -- Brian, 08:03:45
09/27/03 Sat
[> Caroline in the City -- Masq, 09:03:02 09/27/03
Sat
We look forward to it.
Happy trails!
I'm really envious!
[> Have a Great Road Trip! -- Buffyboy,
19:00:55 09/27/03 Sat
Looking forward to seeing you again when you're in the SF Bay
area. As I told you in Vancouver, if you need a place to stay,
and you're willing to stay in Vallejo, you're more than welcome.
Just let me know.
[> [> Re: Have a Great Road Trip! -- Caroline, 11:32:24
09/28/03 Sun
Thanks Buffyboy. There's an email coming your way soon.
[> Great thing to do -- mamcu, 09:05:33 09/28/03
Sun
I did that western journey once many years ago and remember it
with awe. I've done pieces again since then, but just losing yourself
in it is magnificent. Hope it's wonderful for you. One other great
trip was the train from Chicago to Seattle, through Glacier National
Park and the Cascades. Either direction is wonderful--it takes
about 48 hours, but they time it so they go through the more boring
parts at night.
Have a great trip--and let us know if you ever decide to come
south!
[> [> Re: Great thing to do -- Caroline, 11:33:56
09/28/03 Sun
I will most likely be heading south in November sometime, so when
I do, I'll let you know!
Thanks much for the warm wishes.
[> [> [> Re: Great thing to do -- mamcu,
19:35:22 09/28/03 Sun
Great! Maybe we can have a southern meet, or at least I'll be
here.
[> Drive safe! Have fun! -- Ponygirl, 06:44:17 09/29/03
Mon
[> Bon Voyage, Caroline! -- Arethusa, 07:20:28 09/29/03
Mon
And, to paraphrase the immortal Zonker Harris, call us when you
find America!
[> A walkabout! That sounds great, Caroline. -- cjl,
09:36:08 09/29/03 Mon
And you're hitting exactly the spots I'd want to see--the national
parks and the natural wonders of the continental United States.
(Of course, I'd spend a couple of days in Vegas before I went
to see the Grand Canyon.)
Bon voyage, and let us know how you're doing out there, OK?
[> San Francisco -- Miyu tVP, 10:57:40 09/29/03 Mon
Sounds like fun!!! I'm sorta new to the board, but have been in
the bay area for a while. I'm sure the nice people here have told
you everything you need to know about SF, but just in case, I'd
be happy to help. I lived next to Golden Gate Park for a couple
years, and it's simply gorgeous! They closed down the stables
this year for some reason or other, otherwise I would have recommended
a riding tour of the park... but it works on foot as well. Japanese
tea garden, stow lake, buffalos, lots to do!
Also lived by Lake Merced for a while, which besides being a perfectly
wonderful lake, it a stone's throw from the coast. And just a
mile or so south along the coast is a stable where they will take
you down the cliff on horseback and let you wander on the beach.
It's breathtaking when the hangliders are out in full fource -
they're so close you'd swear you could just reach out and grab
them out of the air. :)
Anyway, hope you have a fab trip! If there is a meet up, I'd love
to tag along.
[> but--but weren't you going to come up & see us in ny?
-- anom, 23:28:51 09/29/03 Mon
And to shop, of course. You said! You said in Vancouver
you'd be coming to NYC sometime in the summer & you'd try to schedule
it when the NY posters could get together & meet you! I have witnesses!
OK, we didn't find a time we could get together for most
of the summer...I know, I know, it's our fault. And now we've
lost our chance! For the summer, anyway.
When you're in San Francisco, take some time to go to the Muir
Woods. A decent amount of time--don't try to sandwich it in between
a scheduled event & leaving for home (or your next stop), like
I did. And see Mesa Verde in Colorado, if you get the chance.
These places aren't as well known as Yosemite or the Grand Canyon,
but they're well worth a visit. I haven't been there (though I
hope to go someday), but I also want to mention the Painted Desert--from
everything I've read & the pictures I've seen, it's spectacular.
Wherever you go, have a great time!
On a more somber note, be careful! Places like the Badlands
can be dangerous. Take all necessary precautions; some of these
places you shouldn't go by yourself. I actually knew someone who
died when her car broke down in Death Valley. There's a reason
they have names like that. Not that I want to bring you down or
that I think you don't know any better--I just want to make sure
you come back & visit us in New York!
In Season 7 did Buffy forgive Spike for the attempted
rape? -- zombue, 11:08:47 09/27/03 Sat
Replies:
[> I'd say yes. -- HonorH, 11:52:30 09/27/03 Sat
Certainly, there was a lot of tension at first and a lot of painful
feelings on both sides. They seem to exorcise most of that in
"Never Leave Me" when they have the first really frank
talk about their relationship. After that, by her actions, Buffy
demonstrates that not only has she forgiven him, but she trusts
him. You don't trust someone you haven't forgiven. I'd say the
ultimate watershed moment is in "Touched," when Buffy
invites Spike to lie down with her, trusting him with her body
again. I think, too, that the reason that was "the best night
of (Spike's) life" is that he, for the first time, *knew*
without a doubt that she'd forgiven him.
[> [> Yep. And is that daring or what? -- shambleau,
12:23:53 09/27/03 Sat
That's not exactly a rhetorical question, by the way. Crossing
significant parts of your base and risking ideological excommunication
is brave stuff. Or naive and foolhardy. Or completely wrong-headed.
Major mileage variance at work here. Killing Tara, having Spike
attempt a rape in the first place, and then having Buffy forgive
him is driving on quarter-inch thick ice with a mack truck.
I admired the artistic moxie myself.
[> [> [> We actually have an answer to this question
from one of the writers. -- ECH, 12:49:00 09/27/03 Sat
Jane E. said in a UK con. that Dawn was never able to forgive
Spike because she didn't know or understand why it happened because
she didn't know about the nature of their relationship. However,
Buffy knew he didn't mean to hurt her and why it happened from
the nature of their relationship, (ie the violent sex and the
no means yes crap) which was why she was able to forgive him.
[> [> [> [> Dawn Unable to Forgive? -- Claudia,
15:19:14 09/30/03 Tue
If Dawn was unable to forgive Spike, why did she stopped acting
hostile toward him by mid-Season 7 ("The Killer in Me")?
And why didn't Buffy explain what really happen between her and
Spike in Season 6?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Dawn Unable to Forgive?
-- Finn Mac Cool, 20:23:03 09/30/03 Tue
She wasn't really around Spike in the latter part of Season 7.
As for why didn't Buffy explain, I have three words of explanation:
Very. Awkward. Conversation.
Although, my personal opinion has always been that, because Dawn
believed Spike to be good without a soul, the fact that he got
one didn't mean as much to her as it did to Buffy.
[> [> [> [> Re: We actually have an answer to this
question from one of the writers. -- Dlgood, 09:29:30 10/01/03
Wed
------------
However, Buffy knew he didn't mean to hurt her and why it happened
from the nature of their relationship, (ie the violent sex and
the no means yes crap) which was why she was able to forgive him.
------------
Just like, back in S3, Debbie was able to forgive Pete when he
beat her repeatedly and told her he didn't mean to hurt her, and
that it happened from the nature of their relationship.
Generally, rapists and abusers have an extremely high rate of
relapse into violence.
Buffy does indeed allow Spike to hold her again, but it's notable
that she does so at a time when she believes there is no one else
she can trust, and also at a time when Spike verbally confirms
that her friends aren't worthy of her.
While, in this specific case, it might work out for the best,
"Debbies" who go back to their "Petes" are
very often at risk of returned violence. And Spike does react
violently to seeing Buffy bask in another man's presence. And
Pete killed Debbie because her behavior wasn't to his liking.
I'm not entirely certain that Buffy has fully trusted Spike as
much as some would like to believe. She allows him to touch her,
but her comment "you have a problem with that word (no)"
indicates that she may well still have some resentments that she's
only putting aside because she's feeling so alienated. Just as
we learned that William's mother's gentle rebuke of his smothering
affection masked a deeper resentment as well.
Shes forgiven him and trusted him to an extent, but I hardly think
she trusts him completely and fully.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: We actually have an answer
to this question from one of the writers. -- ECH, 10:22:41
10/01/03 Wed
But, if she only let him touch her because she felt alienated
in Touched, then why when she no longer felt alienated, by the
time of Chosen, did she still want to cuddle with Spike?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: We actually have an answer
to this question from one of the writers. -- Arethusa, 10:53:41
10/01/03 Wed
I don't exactly think we can say Debbie and Pete are analogous
to Buffy and Spike. The power balance between the two couples
is dramatically different-remember, Spike didn't rape Buffy because
she's more powerful than he, and stopped him. Another reason is
the difference between Debbie and Buffy emotionally. Debbie had
the classic abused girl's mindset-he does it because he loves
me, he can't help himself, it's my fault-and Buffy doesn't.
Spike's reaction to seeing Buffy with Angel was to glower and
tape up a picture of Angel to punch. That does not support your
implication that he is a continuing danger to Buffy. The
following exchange occurs after, and as ECH notes, shows little
evidence of continued animosity or danger of violence between
the two:
BUFFY
(looks at the amulet, then at Spike) Angel said the amulet was
meant to be worn by a champion.
Spike looks down, disappointed, but Buffy walks forward and hands
it to him.
SPIKE
Been called a lot of things in my time.
BUFFY
(coyly) Faith still has my room.
SPIKE
Well, you're not staying here. You can't buy me off with shiny
beads and sweet talk. You got Angel breath. I'm not gonna just
let you whack me back and forth like a rubber ball. I've got my
pride, you know.
BUFFY
I understand. (turns to walk away)
SPIKE
(cuts her off) Clearly you don't, 'cause the whole "having
my pride" thing was just a smokescreen.
BUFFY
(sighs with relief) Oh, thank God.
SPIKE
I don't know what I would have done if you'd have gone up those
stairs.
Later, Buffy and Spike are lying together on the cot, fully clothed.
Spike has his arm around Buffy and she fondles his hand.
(Buffyworld.com)
I do agree with your statement that we "would like to believe"
colors our interpretation more than we realize, at times.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We actually have an
answer to this question from one of the writers. -- DLgood,
12:14:43 10/01/03 Wed
------
The power balance between the two couples is dramatically different-remember,
Spike didn't rape Buffy because she's more powerful than he, and
stopped him.
------
But, while it makes Buffy different from Debbie, it doesn't make
Spike any different from Pete. Pete also knew it was wrong to
hurt Debbie, yet he hurt her nevertheless, and promised not to
do it again.
And yet, according to Jane E, "he (Spike) didn't mean to
hurt her and why it happened from the nature of their relationship"
is sufficient for Buffy to forgive and trust him. We'd already
seen a case in S3, where that alone wasn't enough - yet Buffy's
already advocating such to Dawn in "Him", episode 6
- a time when I would argue it's far too soon to make such pronouncements
and to discern whether Spike had really distinguished himself
from Pete at enough length to show he was worthy of such trust.
So yeah - I guess Buffy does trust Spike. And I suppose her relationship
with Spike in S7 scenes appears far fluffier in the scripts than
I framed it. Indeed, her snark about the word "no" aside,
there's minimal even-handed examination on Buffy's part (after
Him) over whether Spike is actually worth such trust. But - I
would argue it's a trust based on wishful thinking (which fortunately
panned out) and it makes Buffy a kinder person than most. But,
I'm not certain her mindset as of Him, based upon what she's observed
out of Spike to that point, is really all that removed in spirit
from Debbie's attitude toward Pete. If Spike didn't mean to hurt
her, he's got a soul now and knows it's wrong, and it happened
because of how the relationship was, then it wasn't really Spike's
fault that he sexually assaulted Buffy in her bathroom. So she
can't hold it against him and has to forgive and accept him.
And but I certainly wouldn't advocate Buffy's as behavior for
anyone to emulate should they be attacked. Spike in S7 makes for
a nice story, but all too often, Pete is the reality.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We actually have
an answer to this question from one of the writers. -- Arethusa,
12:55:08 10/01/03 Wed
Pete continued abusing Debbie. Spike left the country to get a
soul so he would never hurt her again. Therefore I tend to think
they have different mind-sets regarding their reprehensible acts.
I draw a distinct line between souled and unsouled acts, based
on Whedon's definition of a soul as moral compass. Buffy did the
same thing with Spike that she did with Angel-forgive him for
his acts while unsouled. Does giving Spike the benefit of the
doubt imply a victim mind-set?* I'm not sure, although of course
that can be and often is the case. The problem, perhaps, is that
while Buffy knew she couldn't trust unsouled Spike, she didn't
really know she could trust souled Spike. Based on her assessment
of his character and his post-souled actions, she decided she
could, a decision I accept.
Mostly, I guess, I base my view that Buffy isn't like Debbie based
on what I've see of her behavior over the past seven years. Buffy
is not a victim, not even for Spike. It is the basic premise of
the show and is borne out by the vast majority of her actions.
I thorougly agree that one shouldn't base life decisions on a
horror show. ;)
*(I would also consider it acceptable if Buffy did hold the attempted
rape against him and refused to forgive him, since I don't think
she has the obligation to feel emotions such as forgiveness
and acceptance.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's a fair
assessment -- Dlgood, 13:54:58 10/01/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We actually have
an answer to this question from one of the writers. -- ECH,
15:20:19 10/01/03 Wed
--------------------------------------------------------
And but I certainly wouldn't advocate Buffy's as behavior for
anyone to emulate should they be attacked. Spike in S7 makes for
a nice story, but all too often, Pete is the reality.
--------------------------------------------------------
I never have and never will use the soul/no soul excuse for the
AR because it was not something that becoming a good person would
fix. The problem with the AR as framed in SR is that it could
just as easily be commited by a good person as it can be a bad
or evil person. I have posted about this before, but suffice it
to say I have had first hand experience with this can happen in
a real confusing S & M relationship where the lines of consent
become blurred.
However, I doubt very few Americans at all know anything about
this kind of think or want to know. According to JM the scene
was completely based on a female writer using sex because that
is what she thought he wanted to get her boyfriend back. And,
JM also said that he didn't think they thought it through how
much different people see it as when its a man doing it. Basically,
the writer in question was trying to go for an horrible event
that I know all to well about. The problem is I don't think the
average viewer knows much at all about it.
It isn't much of a problem at all at least in my case to forgive
someone for attacking in that kind of way when you know they really
did think you wanted it from your violent past experiences with
that person, especially if that person feels at all bad about
it. And, that was what I saw Marti going for in Villians when
she had Buffy trust Spike to take care of Dawn and then be sad
he left town in the exact next episode.
However, I think the writers got scared after the uproar about
all of this and thought they had to recon Buffy's feelings about
the AR in season 7. I thought Buffy's reaction to the AR was in
character in Lessons and even most of BY, however after that point
it was a freeking joke. Because, for the next 3 episodes they
have Buffy more pissed at Spike then she was in Villians, Lessons,
and BY before she learned he went off to the end of the world
to get his soul back.
Basically, I think that female writer was going for something
very bold, to show how something horrible like AR can happen from
a violent confusing S & M relationship. However, what she was
trying to go for was not something the vast majority of people
have any awareness of leading to more then a few people seeing
the events in SR As a stereotypical man wants girlfriend sexually,
man tries to take her by force type of situation. In this case
it is man is confused with what girlfriend wants, thinks she only
wants violent sex from him, he tries to give it to her, it blows
up and both of them feel badly about it. Which is pretty much
the exact same situation as that female writer and her boyfriend
and the same kind of situation I've been in when I was attacked
by a girl I had been with for awhile.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Context of
S&M -- Dlgood, 16:21:50 10/01/03 Wed
------------
The problem with the AR as framed in SR is that it could just
as easily be commited by a good person as it can be a bad or evil
person. I have posted about this before, but suffice it to say
I have had first hand experience with this can happen in a real
confusing S & M relationship where the lines of consent become
blurred.
------------
Which would be wonderfully applicable if that Sexual Assault had
occured back in the middle of the Season. When they were still
having an S&M relationship.
But it occurred at the end, after she'd broken up with him two
months prior, and had point blank rejected his sexual overtures
on multiple occasions, telling him she didn't love him. On multiple
occasions. So where's the current S&M relationship, except for
in his head. It's not like they were fooling around and forgot
the safety word.
What, pray tell, else is Buffy supposed to do to make Spike understand
that he's not permitted inside her body no matter how much he
wants to be there? She told him "No" for two months,
and then she screamed "No" in that bathroom. And because
Spike wanted her so much, he chose not to listen to all her "No's",
waiting for *anything* he could construe as a yes. Because he
didn't care to listen to what she was actually saying - unless
it meant he could have her. She had to kick him all the way across
the room to get him to stop.
I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that a good person would
have listened to what she said for the past few months, and let
her take a friggin' bath in peace.
Maybe we want to believe that Spike's a good guy, but his actions
in SR pretty much invalidate that belief.
------
According to JM the scene was completely based on a female writer
using sex because that is what she thought he wanted to get her
boyfriend back.
------
Then perhaps, that female writer doesn't understand how odious
her own actions were, and how terrible a thing sexual assault
is - particularly if the entire experience is being framed from
the perspective of the perpetrator. And framed as an apology for
sexual assault.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Context
of S&M -- ECH, 16:44:03 10/01/03 Wed
Well this could be the one thing were the soul helps things out.
Spike finally figured out that Buffy was using him in NLM when
he says "you used me", Buffy responded by saying "you
just figured that out", and he responded by saying "you
told me of course, but I never understood it until now"
Thus, you can't say that soulless Spike knew or understood that
Buffy didn't love him or want to be with him, however with a soul
he figures that out.
This also brings up what Joss himself said about the AR in the
NY Times that without a soul Spike couldn't tell the difference
between their violent S and M dominance games and outright rape.
But, he said with a soul comes a more adult understanding.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Context of S&M -- DLgood, 19:21:17 10/01/03 Wed
That's great - but Whedon also claimed that it was supposed to
be a metaphor for the real world circumstances between rapists
and their victims.
Whedon argued that rapists shouldn't be demonized, but his excuse
is that Spike was a demon and therefore can't be held accountable?
Spike's blameless for the rape because he could never have known
better? Essentially then, Buffy has to forgive Spike not because
he's earned it, and not because she's worked through her feelings
- but because she's not allowed to not forgive him. How frustrating
must that be, that with this soul she's not allowed to feel angry
and indeed is expected to treat him with utmost charity for his
plight. All despite having been the target of his attacks.
And again - Whedon has always talked about how his show is relevant
because he has an iconic character and metaphor that can be applied
to daily life. But Real Life rapists can't use the excuse that
"they didn't know better at the time" and they can't
run off to Africa to get a soul.
How terrible it must be, to be a real life woman in Buffy's position.
To break up with your boyfriend in Real Life, only for him to
refuse to listen to your demurrals of his continued affection,
whether you are impolite or stern. Over the course of several
months. And then, when you finally seem to be getting your life
on track, to be violently assaulted because he wants your body
and doesn't care that you don't want him. And then to be pressured
to forgive him, because he "got a soul just for you"
- knowing full well how awful a person you would have to be not
to forgive him when he looks at you with such devotion and pathetic
wounded pride. And to forever remember that, when you tried to
be honest and kind, and tell him that you were not in love with
him - he ignored and then violently assaulted you. And yet, to
be forced by circumstances to have to depend upon him.
How absolutely terrifying must it be for a real life person stuck
in Buffy's position. Without her superpowers. And to be told by
Whedon that Buffy's situation for your own, that she is an icon,
and that you should learn from what she went through in S7. As
he's said in regards to forgiving Spike. How absolutely terrifying
to have to deal with those circumstances.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We actually have an
answer to this question from one of the writers. -- DLgood,
12:15:45 10/01/03 Wed
------
The power balance between the two couples is dramatically different-remember,
Spike didn't rape Buffy because she's more powerful than he, and
stopped him.
------
But, while it makes Buffy different from Debbie, it doesn't make
Spike any different from Pete. Pete also knew it was wrong to
hurt Debbie, yet he hurt her nevertheless, and promised not to
do it again.
And yet, according to Jane E, "he (Spike) didn't mean to
hurt her and why it happened from the nature of their relationship"
is sufficient for Buffy to forgive and trust him. We'd already
seen a case in S3, where that alone wasn't enough - yet Buffy's
already advocating such to Dawn in "Him", episode 6
- a time when I would argue it's far too soon to make such pronouncements
and to discern whether Spike had really distinguished himself
from Pete at enough length to show he was worthy of such trust.
So yeah - I guess Buffy does trust Spike. And I suppose her relationship
with Spike in S7 scenes appears far fluffier in the scripts than
I framed it. Indeed, her snark about the word "no" aside,
there's minimal even-handed examination on Buffy's part (after
Him) over whether Spike is actually worth such trust. But - I
would argue it's a trust based on wishful thinking (which fortunately
panned out) and it makes Buffy a kinder person than most. But,
I'm not certain her mindset as of Him, based upon what she's observed
out of Spike to that point, is really all that removed in spirit
from Debbie's attitude toward Pete. If Spike didn't mean to hurt
her, he's got a soul now and knows it's wrong, and it happened
because of how the relationship was, then it wasn't really Spike's
fault that he sexually assaulted Buffy in her bathroom. So she
can't hold it against him and has to forgive and accept him.
And but I certainly wouldn't advocate Buffy's as behavior for
anyone to emulate should they be attacked - even if I do happen
to find Spike likeable and sympathetic. Spike in S7 makes for
a nice story, but all too often, Pete is the reality.
[> [> [> Re: Yep. And is that daring or what?
-- Claudia, 15:13:09 09/30/03 Tue
[That's not exactly a rhetorical question, by the way. Crossing
significant parts of your base and risking ideological excommunication
is brave stuff. Or naive and foolhardy. Or completely wrong-headed.
Major mileage variance at work here. Killing Tara, having Spike
attempt a rape in the first place, and then having Buffy forgive
him is driving on quarter-inch thick ice with a mack truck.]
Considering that Buffy had wronged Spike himself, why are you
that surprised?
'Primeval' Query -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:29:23
09/27/03 Sat
"You can't comprehend the source of our power," said
Uber-Buffy, "but yours is right here."
What did Buffy mean when she said this, and who is the "our"
referring to? Most of the interpretations I've seen on this scene
go along the line that Buffy was referring to the powers of the
Slayer, and how the powers of magic could never be grasped by
the technology based Adam. But what if "our power" didn't
mean the power of the Slayers, but the power of the four people
in Buffy's body: Buffy, Giles, Willow, and Xander? What if the
power Adam couldn't understand wasn't magic but the bond of friendship
that held these four people together? Any thoughts?
Replies:
[> Re: 'Primeval' Query -- Rook, 17:07:34 09/27/03
Sat
"But what if "our power" didn't mean the power
of the Slayers, but the power of the four people in Buffy's body:
Buffy, Giles, Willow, and Xander? What if the power Adam couldn't
understand wasn't magic but the bond of friendship that held these
four people together? Any thoughts?"
This is what I've alway assumed, not the "Power of the Slayers"
thing. Especially considering the heavy emphasis of the scoob's
friendship in TYF.
[> [> Re: 'Primeval' Query -- OnM, 20:28:25 09/27/03
Sat
I suppose that I could be accused of merely hedging my bets by
saying this, but I honestly think that it was an 'all of the above'
situation, and that multi-layered interpretation is what Joss
intended.
The spell, as I understand it, called upon the power of the first
Slayer, and all of the Slayers who followed her down through history.
So on the first hand, the mystically enhanced Buffy was momentarily
the avatar of the entire Slayer line.
On the second hand, there is the emotional and spiritual strength
gained by the merging of powers of a different sort, namely the
bond between Buffy and her friends. As an individual, Buffy fights
not merely to hold back the forces of evil because it is 'her
job' (which the merging of the Slayer line would represent) but
because she identifies serving the cause of good with the welfare
and safety of her friends (and by metaphorical extension the rest
of humanity).
On the third hand, we now have to take into consideration the
change in the Buffyverse enacted in Chosen, which mirrors
or balances what the Primeval spell did in gathering the
power of the Slayers collectively into Buffy. In Chosen,
Buffy's reverses that 'magic' by taking the collective power of
the Slayer line (apparently stored mystically within the Scythe)
and spreading it out among all the potential Slayers in the world.
Once again, Buffy's friends play a crucial role in this process,
using Buffy as the focal point, or 'the hand'.
( Here's a thought-- For every Slayer that lived and died throughout
history, was another potential gained? Did the number of Slayers
enabled in Chosen equal the number of Slayers who have
ever lived? I know there's no real evidence for this, but hey!
It could happen! )
Some viewers have commented that the appearance of the Scythe
was not adequately foreshadowed, but perhaps it was--we just didn't
recognize it at the time. The primal power that the Scythe holds
might very well be the same power used in the conjoining spell
of Primeval, just accessed via a different route.
In any event, Adam would have been clueless to any of these variants.
Adam understood magic, but to him it was just another tool, like
the human sciences of math or physics. Adam wanted to build a
race of entities like himself, but his sense of 'community' had
more to do with creating an engine for generating chaos than fellowship.
That's kinda my take.
[> [> [> I think it's a pretty good take on it !
-- jane, 20:43:39 09/27/03 Sat
[> [> [> I agree -- Rufus, 20:59:14 09/27/03
Sat
Season four dealt with power and the forms it comes in. It also
gave a solution to dealing with the power that had gone out of
control because of the intent of the user. The military was a
power that was only as good as those giving the orders. As Maggie
Walsh was given too much control over her project there were no
checks on what she was up to. Power for Maggie meant the biggest
"hand" wins. Adam is the result of power combined from
human and demon sources but missing the "heart" that
came from authentic human relations and the capacity to love.
Adam was very powerful in a physical sense but in the end his
power was easily plucked from his chest from the "hand",
Buffy under the influence of the joining spell. This fits in well
with Chosen as Buffy finally gets it, finally realizes that the
source of her power had been around her all along. "Our"
power was the joining of the Slayer and her friends, in Chosen
the "our" was the Slayer power shared and combined with
the human element that the Slayers had been created to protect.
The Slayers had been seperated from humanity for far too long
resulting in the Slayers that had become nothing more than the
"hand" that was used by another instead of being part
of a whole that is more powerful because of the value each part
gives the other.
[> [> [> [> Power? -- Darby, 07:45:48 09/28/03
Sun
I would have said that the theme of Season Four was Belonging
(or not belonging).
Buffy's arc starts with her very much not belonging on campus.
She no longer belongs to Angel, then she belongs - but doesn't
- to Parker, then she belongs maybe a bit too much to Riley (who
has his own belonging arc). She belongs in the Initiative, but
doesn't. She belongs with her friends, but separates from them.
Xander no longer belongs completely to the group, as his experiences
draw him in different directions.
Giles has no place to belong to through the season.
Anya becomes an appendage to Xander, she belongs so strongly.
Spike is no longer in the realm of the Big Bads, but can't belong
to the good guys, either.
Maggie Walsh - who knows? But Lindsay Crouse did not belong on
a show run by Joss.
Willow - who knows where that was going when Seth Green left?
- But Oz's "belonging" mini-arc was obvious.
Adam was the ultimate non-belonger. Even Forrest and Harmony can
be seen to have similar arcs.
And think of some of the subtexts - and texts - of Restless.
This segued into Season Five, where the roles of who belonged
where (except for Riley) settled out, but the question of Who
Are You, Anyway? arose.
Of course, it could have been about power, too - it's All About
Power.
[> [> [> [> [> Freedom vs. Captivity? --
Nino, 12:21:52
09/28/03 Sun
I always thought that season 4 paralled the "freedom"
of college with the "captivity" of the demons in the
Initiative. It was a look at what it really means to have freedom...are
we really free when we are on our own, or are we more free in
the context of a community? What are the constraints of being
a loner, and what are the constraints of being a member of a group...what
holds us back, and what lets us grow...
[> [> [> On the Scythe and power... -- Sofdog,
00:07:58 09/28/03 Sun
It hadn't occured to me until reading OnM's post. Just how the
Scythe figured in calling all the Potentials made no sense until
I read: "...the collective power of the Slayer line (apparently
stored mystically within the Scythe)..."
I think the Scythe was foreshadowed in "Get it Done"
when Willow and Anya said that you can't just cast a spell, you
need a catalyst to channel power. The Scythe was the catalyst
by which the Slayer's could be activated. Of course, we aren't
told what spell Willow is casting, only that it goes beyond anything
she's ever done. (Not surprising that beyond the pure darkness
she has wielded lies a benevolent "white" magic. It
sort of metaphorizes "evil is easy; good is hard.")
I think the Scythe simply had the power to serve as a catalyst
for such a powerful spell.
And I have long loved "Primeval." Action-packed and
Buffy's killer lines. "We can. We are forever." - "YOU
can never hope to grasp the source of our power!"
[> [> [> [> Talisman = Catalyst -- OnM, 09:47:47
09/28/03 Sun
Joss often 'bookends' the season beginning and ending eps, in
some fashion or another. Near the end of the S7 opener, Buffy
solemnly intones (to Dawn, who represents 'the future') that "There
is always a talisman".
It seems logical to me that the Scythe is that talisman, but the
word catalyst would be a reasonable synonym. My own take on Chosen
is that the Scythe is an incomplete talisman/catalyst by itself--
it requires a special human component to make its mystical potential
available (kinda like epoxy?).
What is so interesting to me with this concept is that Willow
is the one to channel the Scythe's power, even though when she
holds it, she 'feels nothing', unlike Buffy (or Faith) who feels
'that it's mine'.
So, as we have been told, 'everything is connected'. The entire
mystical energy of the Slayer line connects to the Scythe, which
in turn connects to Buffy, who in turn connects to Willow. This
suggests again that Buffy is a human talisman. (Living mystical
energy, like Dawn/The Key, molded into human form? -- "The
monks made her out of me.")
And who appears in the final shot of the opening episode?
Power, indeed.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Talisman = Catalyst --
Sofdog, 11:58:06 09/28/03 Sun
"There is always a talisman"
Yes! I forgot about that one.
[> [> [> Equating Batteries to 'Heart'... -- Briar,
00:44:05 09/30/03 Tue
Simply my observation, since Primeval has to be my favorite
ep of all the seasons combined,(this is saying something because
season 4 as a whole was one of my least favorite seasons...) I
have considered this ep again and again from many different angles
and I tend to go toward that particular line as being "our
power" is the heart of the human and especially the human
that dares to do what is right.
When I think of "having heart" I think of the power
of love in all it's forms. The love of the righteous to give their
lives to uphold basic principles of right. The human need to give
and recieve love with other living beings, satient and non-satient
alike. The ability to express compassion and passion for ideas,
theologies and abstract concepts (freedom, art and spiritual pursuits
come to mind readily) that causes the "heart" to become
totally involved in the experience and moves one to FEEL these
things on a deeper level.
Adam was incapable of "heart" because he was created
as a machine. His compassion and passion were stunted by the lack
of the essence the human language refers to as "having heart";
the ability to be moved, to feel emotion and to use that emotion
to propel action.
We saw the "heart" of Adam as it could best discribed
when he came to life: He killed his "Mother" whom he
"loved" and moved on to try and kill his "Brother"
(Riley) whom he also said he loved. No compassion or passion was
evident in his emotional make up. Feelings were pretty foreign
to his mind, other than some major forms of pain and fear. This
put him lower than almost all life forms as even plants can feel
pain and fear. Many can obviously feel loyalty, and probably love
even if they are termed as "non-human" in human language.
Not so Adam.
Adam had no "power" as the combined essences of Willow's
spell invoked. He couldn't understand the power they were using
because he didn't have the capability of accessing "heart"
such as the humans battling him could.
In the comparison between Adam's "Source of Power" at
which point she pulls out his battery pack and chip, which the
Dr. Frankenstein-ess placed within him to serve as his "heart"
to the infinite capacity of "Source of Power" (for lack
of a better concept I tend to use Universal Love to define it)
combined through Willow's ritual of immersion always spoke to
me of the true meanings of "heart" as I already illustrated.
So when the entity Buffy was channeling chose the words, "You
can not understand our Power..." it was a literal reference
to the fact that Adam was not a living being with "heart"
so she pulled his pathetic facsimile out and thus proved that
"heart" is a thing made up of more than just a pumping
system. It is a balance of body, spirit and mind.
At least this is how I've come to see it and why I love this ep
so much. The themes speak directly to the one part of the human
existance Whedon and his writers did best: What you do with your
power is more important than the source of that power. And nothing
that is alive can escape making that choice.
[> correcting the quote, preserving the pun -- anom,
23:02:10 09/27/03 Sat
"'You can't comprehend the source of our power,' said Uber-Buffy,
'but yours is right here.'"
That's not quite right. The actual line is, "You could never
hope to grasp the source of our power" (according
to the transcript at "Buffy vs Angel"; I didn't remember
it exactly right either). Then, as she says the next part, "But
yours is right here," she reaches right inside Adam and...grasps
it. Sorry to correct you in front of everyone, but as Master of
Pun Fu I gotta give the writers props for that one.
As for your actual question, I agree w/OnM: no reason it can't
be both of the above. And even a 3rd--that Adam can't understand
the origin of the Slayer power. Not too surprising--after Get
It Done, a lot of viewers didn't really understand it either!
But that's what I thought it meant when I 1st saw Primeval.
And I just want to say I really like both OnM's & Rufus' ideas
on this.
OT: Christian Kane in 'Secondhand Lions'
-- HonorH, 21:57:25 09/27/03 Sat
He has quite the fun role in this movie, playing the young version
of Robert Duvall's character. He gets to ride on horseback and
do a lot of swordfighting and romance the girl. However, not much
speaking--Caine's character narrates the flashbacks we see him
in, so even when you do see him speak, you hear Michael Caine.
Except once. Ahh, that sweet little drawl!
Other good things for genre freaks: Anthony DeLongis ("Highlander:
the Series") is the swordmaster, which means the swordfights
are rather beautiful. Also, the trailer for Return of the King
is attached, and it's gaw-geous!! Oh, you *have* to see
it on the big screen! I was swooning!
Replies:
[> Re: OT: Christian Kane in 'Secondhand Lions' -- Cheryl,
16:51:03 09/28/03 Sun
I've been looking forward to seeing this movie, mainly because
he's in it. After reading your post, now I'm *really* looking
forward to seeing it.
I recently watched the second season of Angel for the first time,
and Dead End has to be my favorite episode so far. I really enjoyed
Christian's singing so I had to see if he has a CD out - which
he does. I just ordered it and can't wait for it to arrive (http://www.cdstreet.com/cgi-bin/artisthome_db.cgi?1235144).
The snippets on the website sounded pretty good. His group, Kane,
is country-rock, which I love.
Also, just had to rent Summer Catch again once I discovered that
he's in it. It was kind of weird to see him and Marc Blucas together,
considering CK also auditioned for the Riley role.
What other movies has he been in that people would recommend?
I know he was in something with Angelie Jolie, but I'm not a big
fan of hers - is it worth renting?
[> [> Re: OT: Christian Kane in 'Secondhand Lions'
-- Rendyl, 06:21:37 09/29/03 Mon
He is in 'Crossfire Trail' (a Louis L'Amour western) with Tom
Selleck and Virginia Madsen. Simon Wincer ('Lonesome Dove') directed
and Selleck produced.
Christian does a great job in it. (but then I like westerns and
I like CK-grin)
Ren
[> [> [> Thanks! -- Cheryl, 08:46:15 09/29/03
Mon
I'm a big western fan myself, so I'll just have to rent that one.
UK's Channel 4 100 Greatest musicals -- DP,
08:11:17 09/28/03 Sun
Didnt know if you guys had seen this or not -
http://www.channel4.com/film/newsfeatures/microsites/M/musicals/vote.jsp
Check out number 12 on the list!
Happy Voting!
Replies:
[> No Fair, no fair! This list is a fixed list! -- Vickie,
19:57:51 09/28/03 Sun
A list of the 100 greatest musicals without Les Miserables on
the candidate list! Sacrilege!
[> [> Or maybe V is just blind? -- Vickie, 20:00:46
09/28/03 Sun
[> [> Suprisingly little Sondheim though -- Tyreseus,
12:56:36 09/29/03 Mon
If I felt like dialing oversees, I'd tell 'em to include Sweeney
Todd, Company, Into the Woods and A Little Night Music.
[> [> [> Re: Suprisingly little Sondheim though
-- angel's nibblet, 03:40:59 10/01/03 Wed
im pretty sure A Little Night Music was on that list....
Classic Movie of the Week - September 28th 2003
-- OnM, 20:06:27 09/28/03 Sun
*******
The administration of the law can never go lax where every individual
sees to it that it grows not lax in his own
case, or in cases which fall under his eyes.
............ Mark Twain
*******
1st Teacher: "I've only been trying to get across
part of the complexity of our situation down here.
Cultures coming together in both negative and positive ways."
Angry Parent: "If you're talkin' about food and music
and all, I have no problem with that. But if you start
changing who did what to whom, then..."
2nd Teacher: "We're not changing anything-- we're
just trying to present a more complete picture!"
Angry Parent: "And that's what's got to stop!!"
............ from this week's film
*******
It doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you're sincere.
............ Linus Van Pelt
*******
It is a wise child that knows its own father, and an unusual one
that unreservedly approves of him.
............ ( that Mark Twain guy again )
*******
It's the opinion of my boss that my fascination with many things
computerish stems entirely from the fact that I am
a technically-minded kind of person, and I have never been able
to convince him otherwise. I've given up trying,
because over the past ten years or so of my life I have become
convinced that you simply can't change some
people's minds about some things, no matter the level of effort
that you expend in the attempt. While a time may
one day come when the convincee gains a relevatory moment, it
has to be something completely self-engendered.
The reasons for this are many, I would suspect, but mostly I think
it's because it's incredibly difficult to free
oneself from the restrictions imposed by personal experience and
the inherent physical mindset you got DNA'd
with at birth.
My boss's interpretation of my way of thinking wouldn't be terribly
relevant except that it gives him 'valid'
reasons to dismiss something which he doesn't see as important,
and which of course I do. What I see as an
excellent potential way to increase the income of his business
(and therefore my income) he sees as simply
a toy for me to entertain myself with, using the 'increased income'
aspect as an excuse and not a legitimate
reason. In short, while he intellectually recognizes the business
potential of computers, he places no real value on
my opinions regarding said technology because he can't
seperate what he thinks I think from
what I actually do think.
There is no solution to this dilemma, because sometimes, like
when the doctor taps you with the little hammer to
check your reflexes, your knee just goes and jerks of its own
accord. You have to accept or reject, and that calls
for a yet another balancing act to be performed, since if you
always pick the my-way-or-the-highway
mode of life travels, you'll ultimately end up either in a position
of great wealth and power, or drowned in abject
bitterness. Personally I could really go for the wealth and power
thing, but then you need to have the type of
personality that makes people love you no matter what kind of
a miserable little shit you really are, and I ain't got
that rare and pernicious major mojo workin' for me.
So, my life is full of compromises, as is the life of most terminally
average folk, and I (mostly) have learned to live
with that, having checked out the alternatives and found them
less than ethically desirable. One of the things that
both helps and hurts me is that I seem to have been gifted (or
cursed) with the ability to consider multiple sides of
a divisive or debatable issue and garner an understanding of both.
There are exceptions to this, naturally-- cell
phone abuse comes to mind, since I'm of the opinion that the death
penalty is severely underused in these cases--
but pretty much I can relate to both sides of most arguments as
long as there is some valid logic or even sincere
emotion being applied.
Thus, even though my boss is flat-out wrong in this instance,
I understand where he is coming from. The fact of
the matter is that I am not the typical computer geek, and am
even less and less so as time goes on. Awhile back
I somehow managed to incur the Wrath of Windows (which I think
involves turning one's head to one side while
simultaneously breathing) and ended up with a totally deleted
printer port (that's right, the port itself, not
just the driver!) while trying to install a new printer. I wasn't
even aware that such a thing was possible! After
several frustrating hours of effort trying to get my port back,
I posted to the board in hopes of getting some aid
from someone more computer-tech-savvy then moi. One respondent
sorta half-kiddingly wondered how come I
couldn't solve this problem myself, me being an electronics technician
by trade and all.
The short answer was, I am an audio tech, not a computer
tech. I understand amplifiers and turntables
and tape decks and things, which is difficult enough. I don't
have the time to pursue amassing the required
knowledge to grok PC's at the same level. Furthermore, my interest
in machines and technology is a casual, not
an obsessive one, sort of an extension of my natural curiousity
as to how anything works, people and
gods included. I got into audio as a hobby because I loved music,
and audio was