September 2001 posts


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Giles would know what to do! -- Maple, 00:48:57 09/13/01 Thu

He choked the life out of Ben. Even though Ben was basically innocent. Giles did what he had to do.

For he knows that it is better to do evil than be evil.

To escape sin may be the utimate guilt.

We don't need another "hero" right now. We need our Wesleys. We need our Giles!
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[> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Kerri, 15:08:49 09/13/01 Thu

I don't know. Honestly, all the talk of bombing other countries for revenge disturbs me greatly. How can we possibly take innocent lives after seeing all the pain of tuesday? How can we kill our fellow man?
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[> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Dedalus, 15:49:38 09/13/01 Thu

"How can we kill our fellow man?"

Quite easily. It's a lot faster and easier to do so than actually come to the realization that we're all family. This is just the inherent danger of the fundamentalist, absolutist approach to life. It gets people killed. Always has, always will.

Like I said on another post, if everyone in the world would just sit down and watch The Power of Myth, most of this crap would take care of itself. It wouldn't do any harm for them to calm down and listen to some George Carlin routines once in awhile, too.
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[> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Sue, 17:10:52 09/13/01 Thu

Not revenge. But people need to know that it can't happen here.

Glory wasn't stopped by kind words and understanding!

I guess it doesn't matter to you because you don't know anyone personally who was effected. But the luxuries that you enjoy, including this bulletin board came as a result of the sacrifice of brave men and women who gave everything.

I happened to see Pearl Harbor a month ago. And the death toll from this was far more than it was there.

I am glad that back then there wasn't people like you saying how we must "understad" why they attacked us. We must not stoop to the level of the Japanese and declare war on them. After all Dolittle bombing Japan, that was about revenge wasn't it?
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[> [> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Sue, 17:19:50 09/13/01 Thu

Actually, the way some people are today, they would demand that we apologize to Japan for our ships hitting the Japanese torpedoes.

That anyone would even suggest that we "understand" this is SICK!

We must send a Message. NEVER AGAIN! There must be a price paid. You do not mess with me and mine!

The Buffy season final said it all. It is GILES TIME!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Actually, Ripper Time would be more appropriate. -- Dedalus, 18:30:33 09/13/01 Thu

"Actually, the way some people are today, they would demand that we apologize to Japan for our ships hitting the Japanese torpedoes."

Ha! Kudos, Sue. That was fabulous.
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[> [> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Kerri, 19:32:52 09/13/01 Thu

"I guess it doesn't matter to you because you don't know anyone personally who was effected. But the luxuries that you enjoy, including this bulletin board came as a result of the sacrifice of brave men and women who gave everything."

How can you say that this doesn't matter to me? Ofcourse it does! It should matter to everyone! I'm not saying that who ever's responsible shouldn't be punished-they should with out a doubt! I was just saying that the appropriate action is not to kill more innocent people. If we learn anything from this it should be not to cause this pain to others!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Maple, 19:38:17 09/13/01 Thu

I guess we shouldn't have declared war against Hitler then. I mean sure he is bad, but if we declare war against him, well, we are just lowering ourselves to his level.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re:? -- Darrick, 20:44:56 09/13/01 Thu

Really Maple, WWII was a situation in which the enemy was clearly defined, and failure to act would be the fall of all our allies and the rise of a repugnant poltical system. And even then we waited until we had no other choice before becoming involved in the war. The reason (more or less) is that war is a terrible thing and no one in their right mind gets into it without a damned good reason. To my mind, the WTC/Pentagon attack does constitute such a reason. But that doesn't mean we get involved in the _kind_ of war that WWII was.

This situation is more fluid and shadowy, and it is not at all clear who all of our enemies are, nor what our exact policy should be. Surgical strike, commando raid, war to destroy all countries that harbor terrorists, diplomacy... Some or all of these tools may be used. Innocents will certainly be killed in whatever retaliation comes, but comparing this situation to pursuing war against Nazi Germany is oversimplifying to a degree. Doing nothing for fear of hurting innocents is against our national interests since our enemies clearly set a low value for innocent life. However, we can and should attempt to determine a proper level of force, rather than going all out as we did during WWII, unless that is the only option. Given the nature of our enemy, advances in technology, and the global nature of the problem, that kind of total war might be ill-advised.

I think Kerri is just questioning whether all-out war is either necessary or warranted to achieve the goal of punishing for these attacks and deterring further such incidents. I don't know myself.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re:30 Thousand -- Sean, 21:15:18 09/13/01 Thu

September 11, 2001 changed everything.

Before that date we were awaiting the new season of Buffy, of Angel.

I am from Seattle. I am a Seattle Mariners fan. Tuesday night they could have won the American League West.

I was eagerly awaiting the Lord of the Rings Movie. Harry Potter as well.

But all of that seems trival now. All of that junk really doesn't matter. I couldn't care less about any of that now. I really don't care about the Mariners, or about Harry Potter, or any of that at this moment.

My Nation is at War. My Cities have been attacked. 30 Thousand Americans (the size of a small city) are dead.

This isn't Hollywood. Not a scene from Independence Day. It is as real as a heartattack. It is as real as it gets.

We have seen so many "false" images on our televisons. Lucus Flims, Dreamworks, ect. We have "seen" dinosaurs walk the earth. A "space ship" the size of a small planet blow up. We all saw "Die Hard". We can no longer distinquish real from fiction. We have become numb to it. It's all the same.

Well the people who were jumping from the world trade building were not stuntmen. There will not be any "making of the World Trade disaster" segment on any Dvd showing the storyboards, or deleted "scenes".

We are at war. This is as real as it gets.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:30 Thousand -- Darrick, 21:31:12 09/13/01 Thu

Sean, I'm afraid you're starting to ramble. Believe me when I say I realize all of these things. You sound quite young, and understandibly distraught. But the onset of war doesn't mean you stop thinking. In fact, it means you start thinking really goddamned hard. And pray you're thinking better than whatever state (or in this case organizations) you are preparing for war against.

Again, where are you getting this 30,000 number? While there are a monstrous number of people dead, and I don't want to get into some kind of macabre contest, this seems highly inflated. I pray it's highly inflated. Perhaps if you actually read my post our dialogue might improve.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:30 Thousand -- Sean, 21:51:17 09/13/01 Thu

Monday night, I went to bed.

Everything was normal.

Tuesday morning, I awoke to a nation at war.

Peace allows us to at times have some very muddled "philosophical" thinking. But when you are in the midst of it, all that junk is thrown out of the window.

It is either us or them. You do what it takes to achieve victory.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> number of dead -- spotjon, 06:29:19 09/14/01 Fri

I think the 30,000 count comes from the number of body bags shipped to New York. Obviously they're acquiring more body bags than they think they'll need, since they won't want a shortage. But also -- and this will be a little grim -- they will probably need more than one body bag per body, since they won't all be in one piece. Not a happy thought.
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[> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Karen, 18:45:30 09/13/01 Thu

My Father killed innocent people.

He killed mothers, children, little babies.

He was a bombardier. And he dropped terror down on German cities, killing many people who might have never even wanted war. Who were never members of the Nazi party. Who might have even opposed what Hitler stood for.

He dropped bombs that killed innocent people. Do I consider him a villian? A evil man? Do I condemn what he did?

NO. HE IS MY HERO! He did what he had to do. I thank him and all the others who served in World War II for doing what they did.

Too many people today take their freedoms for granted. They laugh at or even spit upon people who gave their all to protect the rest of us. I have even seen it on this board where people critized Buffy for (god forbid) slaying Vampires (I guess it would have been better if she just allowed them to use the citizens of Sunnydale as human happy meals).

I pray for the souls lost this week. And I pray for victory against the REAL LIFE monsters who attacked this country in an act of WAR!
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[> [> [> Re: People on this board criticized Buffy for slaying vampires? -- Dedalus, 18:59:24 09/13/01 Thu

Well, my father was in Korea, but he didn't kill any innocent people, he just drove an ambulance.
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[> [> [> [> Re: People on this board criticized Buffy for slaying vampires? -- Karen, 19:18:25 09/13/01 Thu

Someone had to fight that war.

What would you have done against Hitler?
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[> [> [> [> Re: People on this board criticized Buffy for slaying vampires? -- Karen, 19:27:57 09/13/01 Thu

And, yes, they criticized Buffy for slaying vampires.

You can go back and search the archives.

I am glad your father was an ambulance driver in Korea. They provide a very important role and save many lives.

But wars aren't won by ambulance drivers.

I am getting a little offended here. What our soliders did in Korea and WWII should be respected!

This attack on those who defeated Hitler doesn't only offend me, but it is an offence of all my Dad's buddies who didn't make it home!

It is because of them that you are now sitting in your cozy little home attacking them!
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[> [> [> I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Kerri, 19:37:35 09/13/01 Thu

Yes, in the real world innocent people do die-that's war. And sadly, that is how it has to be. But I just think that if there is anyother way we should keep from killing any more innocent people. I value all innocent lives equally-be they americans, america's allies, or a citizen of a rival country. we are all humans. we need to come together now-not fall apart. it is the time for american pride and unity. it is also the time for pride and unity among humanity.
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[> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Maple, 19:40:58 09/13/01 Thu

There is no other way.

We are in a state of war.

And there are sides. You have to choose.

Either you are with us, or you are against us.

There is no middle ground. This is war.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Kerri, 19:44:30 09/13/01 Thu

By the way, Kerri. What you have seen the last few days isn't a movie. That plane crashing into the tower wasn't a model, nor did they use CGI technology.

There were no stuntmen. These aren't actors. They won't be back in another movie.

30,000 real people are really dead. This is as real as it gets.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Karen, 19:53:05 09/13/01 Thu

I posted the last response. Sorry for the error in the name.

I am just glad Kerri wasn't around Dec 8, 1941. She would have been so concerned for all the poor Japanese and Germans that Mean Olde FDR was about to Kill!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 20:23:18 09/13/01 Thu

Karen, World War II was mostly a classic nation state vs. nation state conflict. The entire military, cultural, and industrial might of all participants was geared towards total war. This meant that civilians became targets, in and of themselves, due to their working and living in cities and industrial areas.

Today, the situation is quite different. Conditions of total war do not exist. Afghanistan is a war-torn shell of a country. Many other terrorist-supporting nations are similiarly riven by internal strife. Assuming the Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks, and assuming that the U.S and our allies will be challenging all nations that harbor terrorists, we must be prudent in our use of force. The kind of indiscriminate bombing that went on during WWII was a function of the kind of war being fought and the technology used to fight it. To my mind, we should attempt to use the minimum amount of force to achieve our goals, as long as it gets the job done and minimizes the risk to our armed forces. I wouldn't want our soldiers killed because they were being hamstrung by political considerations. On the other hand I also don't want many thousands of civilians killed in the name of justice. The two goals may be mutually exclusive, but all avenues should at least be explored before we err on the side of overkill. Without putting words in her mouth, I think this is what Kerri meant.

I think a campaign to force nations that support terrorism to cease that practice might be adviseable, and civilian casualties are inevitable. But comparisons to WWII and the justification for total war seem flawed to me. I don't argue restraint for purely humanitarian reasons, but also to maintain int'l goodwill and support. I believe maintaining whatever coalition we form will be of great import in restraining (but probably not eliminating) the threat of terrorism. All in my opinion, of course.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 20:50:33 09/13/01 Thu

Time for "opinion" is over.

30 thousand Americans dead.

A time for choosing. Whose side are you on?

We are at war right now. The only question is who will survive?

Us or them.

Perhaps you want more Americans to die. As an American, that would make you my enemy.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 21:07:01 09/13/01 Thu

Again, this is a time for cold, calculating reason. It is precisely because I don't want any more Americans to die that I feel we need to examine all of our options for reprisal carefully. Notice I do not claim that we should not retaliate as soon as we decide what our goals should be.

"Us or them."

Who do you mean by "them"? If it's the terrorists and the governments that support them then I tend to agree with you. If you mean "them" in a more general case then it may be a matter for closer consideration.

Where did you get the 30,000 dead figure? Not that it matters, but all estimates I've heard are much lower.

Our survival, as a nation, is not in question. America has survived difficult times, and we will continue to do so(unless, perhaps, there is widespread use of some extremely dangerous biological weapon). We will survive regardless. What we want is security while at the same time maintaining our fundemental liberties. Hopefully we can strike a balance.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 21:20:15 09/13/01 Thu

Do you know of anyone who was alive during the 1940's?

Perhaps you could visit a retirement center.

They could explain to you what it means to live in a nation at war. Everything else is secondary. Everyone is united and focused on victory.

We are at war. Nothing is what is was Monday night.

We can't be thinking like we were last week. Sacrifices must be made. Is this generation up to the task?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 21:23:51 09/13/01 Thu

Sean, I tend to agree with much of what you just wrote. What is it about what I wrote that contradicts what you are saying? I'm just curious. In any conflict you have a range of options. You choose the option that best serves the national interest. That is all I am saying. Total war is not the end all and be all in this case.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 21:27:55 09/13/01 Thu

It is refreshing to find out that we are on the same side.

What you must understand is that we can't worry about "innocent civilians" getting killed in other countries when we attack them.

"Innocent civilians" will die. That is the nature of war. Can't sugarcoat it. They will die.

Can this generation cope with that? We must or perish.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 21:39:36 09/13/01 Thu

Sean,

I have already stated, at length, that we will have to accept the death of innocent civilians(without quotations). The question is one of degree. Try not to become overly alarmist and irrational. This is a much different conflict than WWII, and looking at it as the same will be very frustrating. As I said, coping with terrorism will be a process of years and much of it will be done behind the scenes and in the shadows, not on the battlefield. Comparing the coming conflict to the WWII will lead to some false conclusions.

By the way, chalking up civilian casualties to the "nature of war" is certainly accurate but it doesn't tell the whole tale. By our actions, we may (or may not) be able to influence what the final result is. Clearly, carpet bombing a populated city might disrupt our coalition in the Gulf. On the other hand, perhaps it will be a military necessity. These are the questions I'm talking about that will come up inevitably. It's not just a matter of sparing innocents but preserving what promises to be a very fragile patchwork of alliances. Alliances we will need if we hope to launch a military operation in and around the Afghanistan region.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 21:47:01 09/13/01 Thu

It is hard to call these people "innocent" as they dance in the streets.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Methinks we have a troll aboard. -- Marie, 04:14:52 09/14/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry! Should've carried on reading before I posted! -- Marie, 04:32:54 09/14/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: -- MC, 09:59:04 09/14/01 Fri

Those people that you saw dancing in the street were born and grew up in camps, where they were reduced to poverthy and denied freedom and any kind of education like the one you hopefully received. They are trapped because of the sanctions the american government applies on them to punish their government,without disturbing it in anyway, and which they never elected. They are innocents who probably see death on a regular basis, they have not much of an education and what they hear everyday is that it is because of the americans. So it is completely understandable, if you take the human angle, that their first reaction was to cheer at the sight of death being on the american side for once. Also, remember that the people you saw were part of a small group and not the voice of the majority of the people you seem to want to bomb.

Now I know all of your argumentation about how this being war and innocent inevitably being killed, I just think you guys are all beside the point. Instead of arguing about the nature of war, we should ask ourselves on the nature of terrorism and weither war can really fight it. Terrorism is a terrible, absurd, fanatic act that should never exist. But it is more and more present, why? Because it borns from oppression, lack of education, lack of any other resources and desperation. Those guys who hijacked the planes died, they knew they would die but they did it because in their minds, they had nothing to lose and everything to win.

What matters to me is not how the people responsible for this terrible act will be punished. But what will happen next. Wheiter or not the government will be smart enough to analyse the situation that lead to this event see (maybe, just maybe) that little part of responsibility that they have. Responsibility in the past, responsibility in the future.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Osama Bin Laden is hardly oppressed... -- A8, 12:04:48 09/14/01 Fri

..he is an educated, elitist Saudi Arabian millionaire whose family lives a jet set life of privilege while millions of his fellow Muslims live in abject poverty. He recruits from the mentally ill, the spiritually misguided, and, yes, the truly oppressed and disgruntled.

He has spent the bulk of his fortune trying to acquire nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons with the only goal of inflicting mass destruction on anyone (other Muslims included) who does not meet his personal standard of "Islamic Purity." He is a Hitler, a Stalin, a Charles Manson who is too cowardly to engage in the fight himself so he manipulates the weak-willed to fulfill his own personal hunger for power and glory. His gripe, like very megalomaniac in history, though cloaked in religious and/or patriotic rhetoric, is that nobody has paid enough attention to him or bestowed on him the power he feels he so rightly deserves. He trains and encourages others to commit suicide (a "no-no" in most religions, Islam included) and works them up with the hynotic speech of the Jihad, to perpetrate acts that are immoral under the tenets of the very same religion they claim to serve.

Yes, the Palestians deserve a homeland. In the ideal world, the new Palestine and Israel would exist side by side in a mutual defense and economic pact that would ensure each other's safety and prosperity. Unfortunately, while that homeland is likely to be born in our lifetime the peace that every Polyanna believes will result is not gonna happen--ever. All the friendly communication, financial aid and understanding in the world will not change the hearts and minds of those who believe that people who are not members of their religion are evil, inhuman, and therefore perfectly acceptable targets for death. Like someone recently said, these people use our virtue against us. Kind of a variation on Lenin's threat that Capitalists would sell him the rope he would use to hang them with.

A sad no-win situation. But we win in a small way if we survive, do our best to engage in peaceful interaction with those who have the same desire for peace, and defend ourselves against those members of Homo Sapiens who are human only by virtue of their DNA.

A8
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 20:30:28 09/13/01 Thu

"There is no middle ground. This is war." This is nonsense. There are a spectrum of options, from doing nothing but talk all the way to strategic nuclear bombardment of whatever locations harbor the enemy. By claiming that you are either for total war, or against it, you are limiting our strategic and tactical options. In my opinion, doing nothing would invite further and bolder attacks. While taking the extreme nuclear course, as I've seen suggested on other forums, would be madness.

Other options would include a surgical strike to get just those people we wanted (plus whatever collateral damage is incurred). Another would be to launch a war intended to remove those governments that are responsible for harboring terrorists. Both options could lead to a protracted war. I'm not speculating on which is advisable, but I think it should be clear that it's not all or nothing. It is possible to be cognizant of the dangers and human cost involved, without being traitors (as you seem to be suggesting).
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 20:53:29 09/13/01 Thu

We are war.

Time for 'debate' or 'academic analysis' is over.

You might be one of those anti-American types. One of them who dances in the streets each time the American death count gets higher. Then you are my enemy.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 20:58:53 09/13/01 Thu

We are at war!

Our cities have been attacked. Our citizens have been killed.

This isn't a video game. This isn't a movie.

We have had it easy for too long. Now it is time for this generation to step up.

Regardless of what you thought before Tuesday, it now comes down to one question.

Do you really, I mean really want America to be destroyed? If you do then you are my enemy. Just like the Nazis were my enemy, the Japanese. Academic debates are over. Do you want America exist?

It is either them or us. Are you one of us?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 21:19:22 09/13/01 Thu

Sean,

I am more than aware that this is neither a video game, nor a movie. Living in the DC-metro area, with friends and associates at the Pentagon, I am well-aware of the stakes.

I suggest you point out in my post where I said I want America destroyed. If you can't, perhaps an apology is in order. Although I tend to doubt one will be forthcoming.

I am not engaging in "academic debate." These are very real policy questions are leaders will have to deal with when it comes time to consider our response. Ideally it will be decisive, but it will most likely take years of effort to suppress global terrorist activity. In fact, the act of suppressing it could lead to further upheavel.

I want only this: 1. a reasonable level of security from terrorist attack (perfect security is sadly impossible), 2. Justice for the most recent attacks, as well as those carried out in the past 3. minimizing losses amongst our soldiers in any war that might follow, and 4. minimizing losses amongst the many innocents or non=aligned people who live in the affected areas(while not jeopardizing the first two requirements). These wishes represent an unnattainable ideal, and some are mutually exclusive. Yet, I think they represent a goal that would be worthy to pursue as closely as possible.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 21:23:23 09/13/01 Thu

Again. We are in a state of war.

Our generation really has no idea what that means.

We must not "seek justice" we must wage war!

I hope you will join with all Americans as we fight towards victory.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 21:26:59 09/13/01 Thu

War is not waged in a vacuum. There is some goal in mind. To me, it seems clear that we are now trying to eliminate or severely curtail terrorism, and seek justice for the bombing? War is a means, not an end. Do you see what I mean? How is this contradicting what you are saying?

By the way, I know how you feel about your generation, you don't have to repeat it in every post. Thanks
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 21:34:14 09/13/01 Thu

We have had it very easy as a generation.

We could sit back and ponder. We spend most of our time in this "manifactured reality".

This isn't a movie. Harrison Ford isn't president. This isn't a Clancey novel.

This is as real as it gets.

This war is going to be brutal. You may think you know because you saw "Saving Private Ryan" but you have no idea.

You are still taking in "pre-tuesday" terms. Wake up, grow up, and understand what just happened.

Us or them!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Darrrick the trolls don't care about what you are saying........ -- Rufus, 21:34:59 09/13/01 Thu

They repeat the same stuff over and over again. Ignore them, as they will never hear what you have to say.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Damn, I swallowed that hook line and sinker. -- Darrick, 21:41:03 09/13/01 Thu

I forgot the first rule of the newsgroups, don't feed the trolls. Thanks Rufus!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're welcome -- Rufus, 21:45:03 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Darrrick the trolls don't care about what you are saying........ -- Sean, 21:45:20 09/13/01 Thu

There are still many it seems, who, although they have seen the images, don't in some respect get it.

I believe it is because of Hollywood. We "see" disasters every day. Heck, this wasn't as bad as when the aliens destroyed LA, and killed the First Lady.

And the giant asteroid that hit a few years back. That Tidal wave took out most of the east coast.

Oh, and getting back to Los Angeles. Remember that Volcano that erupted. What a surprise, who would have thought.

Of course the difference between all those "disasters" and this is that this is real, and those aren't. But it seems like emotionally people can't tell the difference. Of course we know this is real, but we don't "feel" this is real. The fake images have numbed us.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> At least this time the white house was saved -- Susan, 22:00:59 09/13/01 Thu

When the Aliens attacked, they totally destroyed the White House (isn't it great how fast it was re- built).

In all deadly seriousness though, Sean, I believe you are right. Emotionally we have become numbed. Hollywood has been so good at manifacturing "disaster images" when a real one comes alone, emotionally it doesn't compute.

Too many people are talking like it was last week. September 11th, 2001 means everything has changed. We are a nation at war, and everything else must be put aside until we achieve victory.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> How odd. Two names, same writing pattern. Hmm... haven't we seen these folks before? -- Solitude1056, 22:57:34 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Choppy sentences. Hypnotic effect. So sleepy. -- mundusmundi, 07:36:10 09/14/01 Fri

My heart goes out... -- Marie, 07:33:07 09/13/01 Thu

Much love and prayers to all in America, from Australia.Please believe that the world grieves with you. Everyone here is stunned by these terrible events, and deeply affected by the courage we see on the news reports.God bless you all.
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[> Thank you to all of you from around the world... -- Cactus Watcher, 07:59:28 09/13/01 Thu

who've taken the time to say a word in this awful time. Thanks especially to our Canadian and Mexican neighbors whose own lives may have been disrupted by these events... If even Lybia's Moammar Gadhafi can offer condolences perhaps there is hope in the world for us all.
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[> [> Maybe some of you have already seen this, but if not . . . -- Shaglio, 08:07:34 09/13/01 Thu

..I'll post it here. I have recieved this from many people today, but I don't know the validity of it (whether it is a genuine article or just another phony chain email thing):

TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable

editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his Trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of

the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in

to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get

radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk

about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are

breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody Loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
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[> [> [> An oldie but still appreciated -- Cactus Watcher, 08:23:40 09/13/01 Thu

Airplane and draft dodger references indicate the article is several decades old. But, I've always felt that having Canada on our border has been a good influence on those of us in the USA.
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[> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- BobR, 09:49:14 09/13/01 Thu

I remember hearing that in 1973. It IS several decades old.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- Shaglio, 10:30:31 09/13/01 Thu

"I remember hearing that in 1973. It IS several decades old."

Wow, it's even older than I am. I knew, since it seemed like the typical chain email sort, that something might be a little askew about it. I just thought that maybe it was a gross article that someone created, I didn't realize it was decades old.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- Shaglio, 10:30:34 09/13/01 Thu

"I remember hearing that in 1973. It IS several decades old."

Wow, it's even older than I am. I knew, since it seemed like the typical chain email sort, that something might be a little askew about it. I just thought that maybe it was a gross article that someone created, I didn't realize it was decades old.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- John Burwood, 10:37:03 09/13/01 Thu

Not only appreciated, but still basically valid. Just think if there had been no USA during the twentieth century. I shudder to think what would have happened to my beloved England, and God knows what the world would be like without America to fight for Freedom. Too many seem to take such things for granted. I don't. I hope this will teach others that freedom , prosperity, etc are not natural rights we can take for granted, but things that people have had to fight for and earn. Nobody has done more to give these to the human race than America. Let nobody ever forget it.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Gordon Sinclair -- Wisewoman, 16:31:17 09/13/01 Thu

Was an outspoken, intelligent, curmudgeonly Canadian broadcaster who used to be one of the panel on Front Page Challenge, along with Pierre Berton and others. He died quite some time ago, but his sentiments toward our neighbours in the States are still pertinent today.
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[> 9-11-01 -- JBone, 20:14:19 09/13/01 Thu

Thank you Marie...

I still don't know if someone I knew was in either WTC building, or the Pentagon, or on any of the 4 hijacked flights. At this point, I'd be surprised if I didn't. I told someone the other day, if I don't know anyone, my mom probably will, because she knows everyone. It is still very hard for me to grasp with. My formative years were during the last 10 years of the cold war. I grew up in a Reagan America. And as an impressionable pre-teenager, growing up on a farm in South Dakota, who really didn't care about much, Reagan always made me feel proud and privileged to be an American.

As I matured, I've watched the Challenger blow up, the Berlin Wall come down, the Gulf War, David Koresh's compound burn down outside Waco, TX, the Oklahoma City bombing, the Littleton, Colorado shootings, the Clinton presidency (how embarrassing), the seemingly endless US election debacle, and numerous other front page happenings that didn't affect me as much as those that I've mentioned. None of these affected me near as much as 9-11-01. My anger has finally subsided a little bit, but it's still there. I still believe that, as I've said before, there must be retribution, it must be swift, and if it is massive, so be it. But as I watch the rescue efforts, and the people waiting outside the hospitals holding photos of their lost loved ones, I get sick. I haven't felt this sick since my best friend in TX, Paul, died almost 2 years ago. Or if you read the chat transcript, since my nephew died at the age of 24 months 4 years ago. At some point in the chat, I said it was personal, I meant I felt like my family and friends were attacked. I was probably too enraged to explain it. Unfortunately, as a sign of our lost freedom, I feel like I should say that I will not go off on my own. I'm mostly trying to explain my patriotism.

Every time my heart broke the last few days, my resolve just grew. The only reason my heart doesn't break more, is that I have to turn off the radio or tv just to escape. But I need to remember, I need to feel it. WE ARE AMERICANS. We come to the rescue of other nations. Not the other way around. So New York, Washington, Pennsylvania, Boston, Trenton, and all of America, we stand with you. It is only coincidence that I'm not there now, digging through the rubble with you. God Bless America.
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[> [> BtVS doesn't mean much anymore -- JBone, 21:06:54 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> On the contrary. -- Solitude1056, 22:38:33 09/13/01 Thu

No. I disagree. I wholeheartedly disagree. The stories we tell, and the stories we listen to, and the stories we exchange, mean everything.

I don't know how to put it, and normally I'd struggle to find a way, but this time I'll be awkward. For all the fuss about "in god we trust," the Great Seal of this country doesn't say that. It does, though, have a latin phrase that means, "I will create a new way." We do that by sifting through what's happened and filtering it into our stories, and creating a cohesive, collective understanding and comprehension of our past. And we'll use that to come to grips with our future. Those stories are crucial. In the months to come, we'll tell stories to our friends and family of how we feel, what we saw, and the people we lost - those we knew, and those we hadn't had the chance to meet. Those stories, and our ability to tell them, are part of what shapes our understanding of who we are, and our intentions of who we will be - as a person, as a community, as a nation, as a species. In that scheme of things, stories about heroes are always important... even the fictional ones.

During World War Two, Tolkein and C.S. Lewis were writing, to name two authors among many. They created stories in alternate worlds, but stories of heroes and struggles and pain and death and evil and good, nonetheless. Those stories - theirs, and others - are what kept people going through the long dark nights of the Blitzkrieg. Stories have always fascinated, entranced, compelled, and inspired us. Our very humanity is defined by our insistence on telling our stories, and listening to others' stories.

When immigrants come to this country, they hear our legends, and in hearing them, those legends become part of their stories, too. Washington chopped down a cherry tree. A boy brought water to troops in the hot July sun, even those troops on the enemy's side who were crying out for succor. Lincoln was shot at Ford's Theater. A young woman was imprisoned for organizing a march on behalf of the suffagrette movement. Teddy Roosevelt argued for the creation of National Parks. A man died in the trenches, poisoned by mustard gas. FDR stood in NYC and cried out to the populace, "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." A woman became a machinery operator, taking the place of men who were off fighting against one of the darkest evils in our history. JFK promised that by the end of the decade, we'd have a man on the moon. These are the things immigrants learn, and hear, and soon they make these stories their own, too. I know this. My family is nothing but second-class unwashed immigrants, and we still tell the stories of how our family came to this country, who we met, what we learned, and the stories we heard, and the stories we became a part of... and we've been here for over nine generations.

We have a history of some pretty horrible dealings, and some amazing triumphs. I don't mean just my country, but humankind as a whole. A young man stood in Tiannamen Square and placed a flower in the barrel of a tank. A nurse did her best to offer aid and comfort to a man dying of radiation in Nagasaki. The Zulus routed the British, despite being outgunned and outnumbered. A man stood at Fort McHenry and told the newcomers, who had brought death and famine to his land, that as his allies, he would stand with them until he could fight no more. A young woman rode for fifty miles on horseback to warn her neighbors and countrymen that their land was being invaded. And an old man taught that peaceful resistence is as powerful as any weapon created.

These are the stories we - humanity - have, of heroes! How can that not be powerful? The medium of TV is just as bastardized in so many ways as the pulp novels of the thirties, but does that mean that we should ignore O. Henry, Kate Chopin, Mark Twain, J.R.R. Tolkein, or any other author who happened to be using the same medium at the same time? We're participating, dare I say, in a story that is just as powerful and evocative as any other, because it's telling us the same story as every ancient myth, in every culture on the face of this planet: there are heroes among us. We don't always know who they are, and we don't always get their names, but they're there. And someday, if we're lucky and work hard, we may be recognized as being one of them. In the meantime, we'll tell our stories, and listen to others' stories, and realize that our stories are what bring us together over our campfires, our computers, our tables, and our differences.

We need heroes, of all types, now more than ever.
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[> [> [> [> Not too awkward, Sol. -- Marie, 02:54:12 09/14/01 Fri

Speaking from the country of Bards, couldn't agree more.

M
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[> [> [> [> [> Whew. Thanks. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 05:51:13 09/14/01 Fri

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[> Australia? Okay, but Marie, I thought you were in Wales... -- Wisewoman, 08:51:06 09/14/01 Fri

in the UK. Was that New South Wales? I'm confused now!
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[> [> Not me! -- Marie, 09:00:50 09/14/01 Fri

Different one! I'm the Welsh one, by the way. Hi, Marie in Australia!

Actually, when I saw another Marie, I was confused, too, thinking 'Hey, I didn't do that!". Hehe.

Might be a good opportunity to change my boring board name to something more interesting, though...hmmm...

(No offence, Other One!)

Marie (But not for long)
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[> [> [> Oh, no! We have enough trouble keeping track of just one! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 09:13:17 09/14/01 Fri

I hereby dub thee M1 (like the spy guy, but with a number) for our lovely Welsh personage, and M2 (like, uh, the spy guy but with a different number) for our delightful newcomer. Ah-hah. Am I brilliant or what? (Or just desperately in need of a day off!)

1056
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[> [> [> [> Take the day, Sol...PLEASE! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 09:19:00 09/14/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> Mwauahahaha. -- Solitude1056, 09:25:11 09/14/01 Fri

Just to cheer you up today... -- Marie, 08:15:08 09/13/01 Thu

Check out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/buffy/features/nocturnal/interviews/james/index.shtml
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[> Re: Just to cheer you up today... -- Dedalus, 11:16:20 09/13/01 Thu

Thanks. I just gotta say, I want to go over to Joss' house one fine Sunday afternoon. I think all of us should be invited.
OT: Candle Lighting - 7:00p EST, Friday, 9/14 -- rowan, 08:29:53 09/13/01 Thu

If you're comfortable doing so, please spread the word to join the many US citizens who will display a lighted candle at 7:00p EST on Friday, 9/14 as a protest against global terrorism & in memory of the victims of Tuesday's attacks on New York, Washington DC, and Pennsylvania.
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[> soundtrack for it... go listen, it's here if you need it. -- Solitude1056, 10:05:38 09/13/01 Thu

Not all of you may listen to this band, but I heard this song on the radio during lunch. It's available for free download from the +Live+ website, at http://www.friendsoflive.com/home.html. Click on "download overcome." The song is called Overcome & will be on their fifth album. This particular song is being released way ahead of time, due to the group's decision that it may speak to folks dealing with the event's aftermath. The website states:

Download the Overcome MP3 Live want to share "Overcome" from V with everyone around the world as a demonstration of our support for America and our empathy for all of the individuals who are personally affected by the devastating attack on our nation. Please download "Overcome" and share it with anyone you feel might find comfort and solace in the lyrics and music. If you choose, please forward it to your local radio stations who may appreciate it and want to broadcast it to their listeners.

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[> [> Masq, I know, this isn't like me... but still. -- Solitude1056, 10:28:27 09/13/01 Thu

I'm not one to post lyrics - especially continuing the off-topic trend here - but I realized not everyone has a fast connection to be able to listen. So, as best I can manage (given that the song's not released so there's no official lyrics that I can find anywhere)... here's the lyrics. I can't figure out all of them, but hopefully I got kind of close (there's only two or three words I'm not positive of). Also, if you want to hear it on your local radio, call them up & ask them to download the song & play it. The band has explicitly granted permission, and I think it nails the sensation the rescue workers must be feeling right now...

even now, the world is bleeding but feeling just fine, all numb in our castle we were always free to choose, never free enough to find I wish something would break, cause we're running out of time

and I am overcome, yeah, I am overcome, holy water in my lungs, I am overcome

there's women in the street pulling out their hair my master's in the yard, giving life to the unaware this plastic little place is just a step amongst the stairs

and I am overcome, yeah, I am overcome, baby, holy water in my lungs, yeah, I am overcome

so drive me out, yeah, out to that open field turn the ignition off, and spin around your helpless heels but I'm parked in this open space, but locking the gates of love

and I am overcome, yeah, I am overcome, baby, holy water in my lungs, yeah, I am overcome, yeah yeah, I am overcome, oh Lord, I am overcome, holy water in my lungs, holy water, I am overcome...

beautiful drowning, this beautiful drowning, this holy water, this holy water... is in my lungs, and I am overcome, I am overcome, I am overcome
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[> [> Thank you so much, Sol...it's beautiful -- Wisewoman, 11:07:33 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> This is like me...more reflective lyrics. -- A8, 11:36:56 09/13/01 Thu

Unlike Sol, I have shamelessly posted lyrics from time to time which I felt reflect a mood of a given moment (albeit generally related to BtVS). Last night, I sought comfort in music, as I usually do and was drawn to a few songs in particular that seemed to reflect some of the emotions I have been experiencing, and from the tone of the appropriately OT posts here over the past few days, the feelings of many of the other posters here as well.

When the night shows, the signals grow on radios All the strange things, they come and go There's early warnings Stranded starfish have no place to hide Still waiting for the swollen eastern tide There's no point in direction We cannot even choose a side

I took the old track--the hollow shoulder across the water On the tall cliffs, they were getting older Sons and daughters The jaded underworld was riding high Waves of steel-hurled metal at the sky And as the nail sunk in the cloud The rain was warm and soaked the crowd

Lord, here comes the flood We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood If again, the seas are silent in any still alive It'll be those who gave their island to survive Drink up dreamers--you're running dry

When the flood calls, you'll have no home You'll have no walls In the thundercrash, you're a thousand minds within a flash Don't be afraid to cry at what you see The actor's gone, it's only you and me And if we break before the dawn They'll use up what we used to be

Lord, here comes the flood We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood If again the seas are silent in any still alive It'll be those who gave their island to survive Drink up dreamers--you're running dry

Here Comes the Flood by Peter Gabriel

They say that in 1842 on a plantation in Alabama the slaves unearthed a huge skeleton, the bones of a giant whale, a leviathan, from the time when all the world was covered with water from the Andes to the Himalayas and even Alabama was deep down under. And the slaves looked at the huge bones and they said:

These must be the bones of a fallen angel These must be the bones of a fallen angel

Out on the ocean, out on the water We look for signs of him He looks like a giant snow hill, a fountain Then he disappears. He's a speck on the horizon

We see him only in parts The flash of a tail, his beating heart. He's in pieces and parts

It's easier for a camel to slide through the eye of a needle Than to find a whale who hides at the bottom of the ocean

It's easier to sail around the world in a coffee cup Than to see a whale when he comes rising up

We see him only in parts A fountain, fins, a speck on the horizon Giant teeth, an open mouth Look out look out look out look out

So hit an elephant with a dart and he just reaches around and pulls it out with his trunk But hit a whale in the heart and the whole ocean turns red, it turns red

We see him only in parts The flash of a tail, his beating heart He's in pieces and parts

So get hit in your head And there may be a few things you can't recall at all But get hit in your heart And you're in pieces and parts Pieces and parts

Pieces and Parts by Laurie Anderson

Every picture has its shadows And it has some source of light Blindness, blindness and sight The perils of benefactors The blessings of parasites Blindness, blindness and sight Threatened by all things Devil of cruelty Draw to all things Devil of delight Mythical devil of the ever-present laws Governing blindness, blindness and sight

Suntans in reservation dining rooms Pale miners in their lantern rays Night, night and day Hostage smiles on presidents Freedom scribbled in the subway It's like night, night and day Threatened by all things God of cruelty Drawn to all things God of delight Mythical god of the everlasting laws Governing day, day and night

Critics of all expression Judges in black and white Saying it's wrong Saying it's right Compelled by prescribed standards Or some ideals we fight For wrong, wrong and right Threatened by all things Man of cruelty--mark of Cain Drawn to all things Man of delight--born again, born again Man of the laws, the ever-broken laws Governing wrong, wrong and right Governing wrong, wrong and right Wrong and right.

Shadows and Light by Joni Mitchell

Thanks for indulging me here, but these lyrics seemed very relevant to me, and it never hurts to share.

A8
cannot be reasoned with;but can be HEALED -- briseis, 09:04:49 09/13/01 Thu

Also the causes of the kinds of hurt that make people into fanatics can be prevented. Wilhelm Reich said this;Alice Miller says this;Stanislav Grof says this; Michel Odent says this;Arthur Janov says this. We cannot just say, I am not one of those unreasonable people, THEY have broken the rules, let's make THEM "go away." That's just "reasonably" and coldly killing people which our society says is OK, so we don't have to think about it-I'm not saying that in the state the world is in, that this is not sometimes unavoidable as self-defense, but being OK with killing people, as long as you've gone through some kind of legalistic justification in your head, is not truly abhorring violence. I f we want to really HELP, we have to ask what makes people violent fanatics and how can we change this-not just "I am not a violent fanatic, so I'm not going to face this issue, I'm not the problem." ON the web, on the Primal Psychotherapy Page, there is an in-depth book review about a little girl in England, a 10 year-old, "Mary Bell" who tortured and killed two toddlers. I think its a very relevant story to what makes folks who can do things like this.
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[> Re: cannot be reasoned with;but can be HEALED -- Dedalus, 11:19:22 09/13/01 Thu

"We have to ask what makes people violent fanatics"

Quite true. But finger pointing is always easier.
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[> help? -- spotjon, 12:51:24 09/13/01 Thu

It's not our job to "help" the terrorists who coordinated this mass-murder on American soil. I'm all for preventing such mindsets in the United States, but I don't see what the purpose of trying to understand their point-of-view is. I agree that there are a lot of sadistic people, many of them in this country, and many of them children. We do need to understand why that sort of thing happens, and stop it. But what does that have to do with these people who just recently attacked us? They are a threat to national security and to every person in this country. They have committed mass-murder, and they will do it again if they are not stopped. We need to hunt these people down and wipe them out. They are not interested in us sympathizing with them or understanding their cause. They want us dead, and thus they must be taken out.
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[> [> Re: help? -- Dedalus, 15:45:11 09/13/01 Thu

The more patriotic, middle class Dedalus in me agrees with you. I want blood for this, and I'll be cheering no doubt when the F-16s start firing up on foreign runways.

On the other hand, it is imperative that we understand this mindset. Otherwise we are simply attacking the immediate problem, rather than the root of the problem. Bombing will be good for morale and all that, but until we all start sitting down and figuring out why we behave in this way on this planet, it will happen again, in some form or fashion.

And I highly doubt they are a threat to national security. They're not a threat to me. Unless they plan on continuing to hijack planes and crash them into every building in the continental United States, I seriously doubt they are a threat to national security.
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[> [> why in the world would you assume... -- anom, 21:25:32 09/13/01 Thu

..that briseis meant help the terrorists!? This is what s/he said:

"I f we want to really HELP, we have to ask what makes people violent fanatics and how can we change this..."

I read this as meaning to help the situation, help "change this" to prevent the next attack (or somewhere down the line, since it can't work immediately). The idea is to prevent "such mindsets" not only in the US but in the places terrorists come out of, by changing the circumstances that give rise to them. Briseis didn't specify whom or what kind of help. Why would you want to fill in that blank as meaning "help the terrorists"?
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[> [> [> That is an easy one... -- Voxpopuli, 05:28:25 09/14/01 Fri

When you feel threatened, when you are hurt, when you feel you have to do something, sometimes a person coming along with "calm down, think it over, try to make a long term solution" may be seen with suspicion, people will always take on this person the anger they feel, or just understand/project what they actually believe on that person's discourse. Nothing more natural, nothing more human. We all probably do this about one or other thing, a touchy topic, in our lives.

Jumping to conclusions is just part of the package. No harm meant, no harm done.

Hey, guys, the situation is damn serious, but if guys go on like this... well, then it is my turn to be bashed for saying... "calm down, you're all humans, let's look at each other like inhabitants of the same planet..."
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[> [> [> [> Voxpopuli is right -- spotjon, 06:24:28 09/14/01 Fri

It was a knee-jerk reaction to a vague statement. I've been pretty on-edge the last couple of days, as I imagine most everyone else has been, too. I agree that we need to understand this mindset more, and find out what we can do to prevent it.

Taking deep breaths....

-spotjon
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[> [> [> [> [> not much to add, but.. -- briseis, 07:34:12 09/14/01 Fri

I am a she by the way, and using my real name, although I feel kind of embarrassed about that as people on this list have come up with such interesting tags. Anyway, yes, my whole "help" thing was talking about general situations in this country, AND preventing future terrorist attacks by creating an atmosphere that prevents those mindsets from developing. This post may have been vaguer than I wanted it to be, because I didn't mean to create a new thread, but to reply to one below.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Man, in that case, *I* wanna cool real name like yours! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 08:13:22 09/14/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> And on a practical level... -- Dariel, 11:42:06 09/14/01 Fri

Killing people who glory in suicide just ain't effective. Terrorists are the toughest people to fight, because they usually don't care what you do to them.
May I make a suggestion? -- Liquidram, 11:48:10 09/13/01 Thu

It's my turn to climb on the soapbox for a minute and I will offer a blanket apology to anyone who may resent what I am going to say. Please accept my comments as a reflection of my respect for all of you and a desire to maintain the relationships we appreciate on this board.

May I suggest that we move our conversation and posts on this board back to it's intended discussions?

In no way do I mean to downplay what has happened, but I honestly feel that we can use our board as a means to escape the reality and not use it for a religious or political forum.

We are all sad and angered and afraid and stoic in our opinions, but it's time to move on. If we allow this horrible event to completely alter our everyday activities then, the terrorists have won. This is what they want. To throw our country, government, economy and most important, our spirit into disarray. They want us to argue and fight and hate those different than ourselves. I say NOT ME.

Paul Harvey said on Tuesday that when we saw our children on this day, we should hug them to us tightly because underneath they had been raped. A horrible statement. And what is rape? It is simply control over another person manifested in violence and violation. If you do not allow yourself to be controlled, then they have no power.

I will show my respect for the victims and families of this tragedy by moving on and not allowing the terrorists to win.

Anyone who still needs to discuss this week's events with other members of our group is more than welcome to use the chat program at my site http://ivyweb.com/chat 24/7. It is available to you at anytime so please feel free to use it.
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[> Good call. If we tear ourselves apart, they've won. -- Rattletrap, 12:02:01 09/13/01 Thu

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[> Got my support - well, when I'm not driving around looking for Buffy billboards to honk at... ;-) -- Solitude1056, 12:09:24 09/13/01 Thu

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[> just vented my last thoughts on the subject -- mundusmundi, 12:17:58 09/13/01 Thu

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[> Re: May I make a suggestion? -- spotjon, 12:25:08 09/13/01 Thu

I think that's probably a good suggestion, though I doubt that any philosophical discussions will be able to ignore what has just happened. I get the feeling that the old "All threads lead to Spike" truism will soon be changed to "All threads lead to the terrorist attack." I agree that it feels like our entire nation has been raped. It is my contention that all rapists are essentially cowards, attacking violently in the dark without warning, because they can not stand to fight in the open. Our enemies are not even taking credit for what they've done, because they know that if they do, they will be ground into dust before they can blink twice.

I suppose I'm not helping by continuing ranting about this. :-( I don't think we can just let this go, because something very fundamental has shifted in the spirit of our country. I think that people are going to have much less patience for things which are non-essential and frivilous in the coming months. We are entering a war, and wars cause people to think really hard about the things they believe in. I'm wondering if the entire entertainment industry isn't going to take a nose-dive very soon, because the American people aren't going to put up with much of the stupidity that comes out of Hollywood for quite a while.

That's what I think is going to happen, at least. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think that our country is going to be terribly enamoured by "This Fall's New Lineup". We've been waken out of our pipe dreams of security, and we've woken up cranky. If I could have only one good thing come of this, it would be for interest in Britney Spears and her pop-buddies to vanish forever, but that might be too much to ask. :-)

-spotjon
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[> [> They may actually have to start coming up with something original. -- A8, 12:42:48 09/13/01 Thu

Every other US made movie seems to have a plane or building exploding (Schwarzeneger, Seagall, and Willis would have no careers without explosives). Now comes the real challenge for them-- meaningful stories, well-written and no boom boom. Too bad Joss and Co. are spreading themselves out thin already with all their current projects. I have to believe there are more like them out there. Hey what about the Dark Alchemy crew?
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[> [> [> Pushy, pushy - we're working on it! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 12:56:17 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> Re: May I make a suggestion? -- Dedalus, 15:58:02 09/13/01 Thu

Whoa, partner.

First off, I think the rape metaphor is getting a little out of hand. It's so "this morning". It's passe.

Second off, war isn't traditionally a time when people think really hard about their beliefs. It's basically a time when everyone reasserts their heads in the sand and starts waving flags. If anything, if we have an external enemy to project out on, that means we have to do LESS thinking and reevaluating. We just fall back on our old comfortable status quos, and that's that.

Third off, America will always put up with stupidity, whether it's coming out of Hollywood or the White House. This country is a delicately balanced system of stupidity and lies. Take either one away, and the entire thing would collapse faster than a house of cards.

Fourth off, I don't foresee a time in the future when I will lose interest in Ms. Spears, especially if she continues to look as absolutely awesome as she does right now. She drives me crazy (but it feels all right).
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[> [> [> Passe maybe .... -- Liquidram, 16:25:12 09/13/01 Thu

.. but since I just heard it this morning on the radio, it was new to me, so don't be mean to me Ded or I'll, well I'll just sit here and sulk awile.

I just wanted to diffuse some of the bashing that was getting somewhat out of hand on the board... that's all.

and Britney? Yea, she's okay, very beautiful. But I think I'll stick with Spike... I much prefer his voice.
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[> [> [> [> Spike... -- Voxpopuli, 10:51:12 09/14/01 Fri

Ooops! Magic name: Spike (my eyes get glassy, zombie mood, chanting Spiiiiike... Spiiiikeee). Yeah, his voice is cool. Glad my husband is never on such Forums ;-)
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[> [> [> Dude, put down the crack pipe. -- Solitude1056, 17:06:26 09/13/01 Thu

Every knows that Christina Aguilera chick could kick Britney Spears' ass. Pffffft.

(hehehe)
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[> [> [> [> I don't know, she looks a little underfed to do any damage to anyone. -- A8, 17:12:39 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Britney rules! -- Dedalus, 18:25:25 09/13/01 Thu

And she would have kicked butt as Robot April on Buffy. That Pepsi commercial alone was one of the most erotic things I've ever seen in my life, Playboy lesbian porno included. :-)

Anyway, my main problem with the use of the word "rape" is a personal one. No, I'm not about to launch into some horrible story, rather a relatively amusing one.

See, over at the AICN talkbacks, at the very height of Phantom Menace bashing, some fan had had enough, and typed out in capital letters "LUCAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!" Ever since then, I have to fight off the urge to laugh whenever rape is mentioned. That could leave one in some precarious social situations, as you might imagine.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, yeah, and Angel is a hottie. Could we have new eps NOW please? ;-) -- Humanitas, 19:25:16 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROFLMAO! yeah, yeah, we need 'em. Bad! -- Solitude1056, 19:38:52 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But Hum, we were discussing skinny blonds, so I .... -- Liquidram, 20:06:18 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Britney rules! -- Liquidram, 20:04:32 09/13/01 Thu

I can promise you that you would not be laughing at my story of rape.
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[> [> [> passe? -- spotjon, 06:04:55 09/14/01 Fri

I don't know, I think that the rape metaphor is fairly descriptive of what happened. The entire country, so far as I've been able to ascertain, feels violated, hurt and angry. Our attackers have not identified themselves, and everybody continues to deny responsibility. Just because a lot of people are using the metaphor does not mean it isn't apt in this situation.

War is not a time when people think hard about their beliefs? It seems to me that when you know you might die a violent death at any second, you think really hard about what comes after. That's the one time not to be ignoring those questions.

And yes, Americans will probably put up with stupidity forever, but one can only hope that people will have less idiocy tolerance for a while.

Lastly, at least Britney broke the age-18 barrier, finally. ;-)
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[> [> [> [> "There are no atheists in foxholes." -- Solitude1056, 07:33:07 09/14/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> What about foxes in atheist holes? Oooh, sounds naughty, doesn't it? -- A8, 13:40:34 09/14/01 Fri

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[> I have a feeling that in a day or so we'll all settle down a bit. -- A8, 12:29:21 09/13/01 Thu

All this swirl of emotions is about to reach the point of fatigue pretty soon. Honestly, though, with BtVS off the air until next month and the AtS season premiere still a couple weeks away, I've run out of things to discuss regarding the themes of past episodes. I'm not too original, so I don't want to end up bringing up a topic that may have been addressed numerous times already. So until someone else comes up with something new about something old here, I'll respond to whatever's posted, lurk and wait.

A8
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[> Sounds like a plan to me! Going to read the Darla thread now... -- Humanitas, 13:01:35 09/13/01 Thu

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[> Re: In reference to the chat room .... -- Dedalus, 16:11:39 09/13/01 Thu

Well, I checked in there a couple of times today. The first time I admit, I was having a most charming conversation, but then I finally realized I was the only one there.

:-(

Anyway, I would like each and everyone of us to remember - Buffy is always more important than real life. The scripts are better written, the direction is much more solid, and, generally speaking, the actors are much better looking.

*Dedalus proudly faces down reality and extends his middle finger*

:-)
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[> [> and the soundtrack's better! -- Solitude1056 who should be finishing up Part V..., 16:21:21 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> Next time you go chat, may want to post a board notice so that people will know a chat's going on. -- A8, 17:10:49 09/13/01 Thu

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[> I'm all for it. -- Deeva, 21:26:14 09/13/01 Thu

We're already surrounded by the non-stop coverage, don't need to come here to see more of it. No offense meant by that last part. It's just that I reached overload ages ago. Not indifferent, just drowning in it. Besides I do come here to escape a bit.
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[> [> Deeva, that was my point exactly. -- Liquidram, 21:36:12 09/13/01 Thu

Bad news--looks like another building's going to fall. -- A8, 13:12:39 09/13/01 Thu

They've evacuated the rescue area because the Liberty Tower is showing signs of buckling.
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[> Does anyone here read Dave Barry? -- Shaglio, 13:51:01 09/13/01 Thu

He's usually funny, but today he's more inspiring:

http://www.miami.com/herald/special/features/barry/2001/docs/wtc0913.htm
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[> [> Thanks for the site address. He's right on the mark IMHO. -- A8, 13:56:07 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> Re: Thanks for the site address. He's right on the mark IMHO. -- Shaglio, 06:11:12 09/14/01 Fri

Unfortunately, I violated Liq's suggestion to no longer talk about "it." But he wrote it after Liq's suggestion and I thought it was very poinient(sp?). I wish we had a new episode so we'd have something else to discuss, but we're still stuck in rerunville.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks for the site address. He's right on the mark IMHO. -- Rattletrap, 08:00:39 09/14/01 Fri

Worse than being stuck in rerunville, we're stuck in a 'ville without even Buffy reruns.

AArrrgh!
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[> [> [> [> [> Like I said in a previous post, Buffy reruns (from Season 1 on)... -- A8, 10:47:57 09/14/01 Fri

..are slated to begin (on at least one non-cable WB affiliate in California) on September 22. Check your local listings, there may be an affiliate in your area doing the same thing. Could keep you going a bit before the October 2 premiere.
A little humor -- Brian, 14:12:17 09/13/01 Thu

I hope you folks will accept my attempt to lighten the load of the board after the last days. I agree that we need to get back to "normal" as quickly as possible. This song is done to "We need a little Christmas" from the musical "Auntie Mame" I have no idea whether it scans correctly as I can't sing. Feel free to make changes if you like.

Haul out the body Dig up that coffin before my spirits fail again. Stiffen up that shroud, I may be rushing things, but we need some action now. For we need a living Buffy Right this very minute, Vampires in the window, Demons at the door. Yes, we need a fighting Buffy Right this very minute. The vampires are in a fury, But Buffy, dear, we're in a hurry; So climb out of that grave; Pick up the biggest, sharpest stake I've ever seen. It's time we staked another vamp with that evergreen. For I've grown a little paler, Grown a little colder, Grown a little sadder, Grown a little older, And I need an action Buffy Staking by my shoulder, Need a punning Buffy now. Yes, we need a little slayage, Need a little slaughter, Need a little staking Dusting to the rafters, And we need a little snappy "Happy ever after" Need a little smile right now.
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[> Go, Brian! ROFLMAO!! -- Wisewoman, 15:22:07 09/13/01 Thu

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[> Beautiful! Thanks for sharing!!! :) -- Nina, 18:30:53 09/13/01 Thu

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[> Musical ep -- Helen, 02:32:42 09/14/01 Fri

Shame the first ep isn't going to be the musical one - Willow, Xander and co could stand around the grave singing as they do their little spell!
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[> [> Like a Charlie Brown Xmas on the Hellmouth. Xander could do a Snoopy grave dance. -- A8, 13:44:12 09/14/01 Fri

Demon, Migration and Resettlement -- fresne, 14:43:10 09/13/01 Thu

Fully taking into account both Sol's comment about keyboards (stepping away from) and Liquidram's request that we try to bring the discussion back to Buffy...

Some of Voxpopuli's comments below about the Brazilian model of ethnic diversity, assimilation vs. the American model got me to thinking about the demons within the BtVSverse and their assimilation or lack thereof into the greater mass of human society.

We have a multiplicity of examples:

We have demons who have been around for centuries/millennium and form themselves into communal groups separate from the greater whole, which maintain their own unique cultural identity.

We have individuals like the Host, a new immigrant, who has gratefully assimilated into Los Angeles culture. I say Los Angeles, because, in my opinion, America is not only one nation, but 50 nations, with vastly divergent cultural norms between states. From blue laws in Mass to legalized prostitution in Nevada, each state has its own feel. And within states, as in any country, vast cultural differences between cities.

If recent events have shown me anything, it has shown me how much I am an American. However, I am also be degrees, a Californian, Northern (No.) Californian and a S.F. Bay Arean (If there is such a word). Talk to two No. Californians about Los Angeles and the comment that they stole our water will come up. Durn So. Californians, don't even know that we don't like them...but I digress.

I'm sure if we were to ask the Host if he considers himself a Pylean in exile or a Plyean-American, he would say neither, I'm a Los Angelean.

Of course the Host is an odd case, a community of one.

Then there are the vampires, the ultimate halfbreeds. Randomly, I wonder where the demon that inhabits the human comes from. Does it hover in the ether? Does their progenitor vampire give birth to it through the exchange of blood? Because it's all about blood isn't it. They tend to stick to small family groups and live nomadically, which makes sense.

Demons, particularly vampires, are also immigrants in time. Nomadic. Constantly having to deal with the inevitable flow of human history. We change. Some demons are capable of adapting, ie can assimilate to new cultures, others cannot and get left behind. Because, the older you get, the harder it is to adapt to a new culture, which makes Anya really impressive. Although, there we run into the difficulty of defining demon. Human then demon then human. Is Anya young and adaptable or old and therefore doing very well with the whole assimilation into human culture thing?

Many years ago, I took a class on Migration and Resettlement, which looked at how people move and deal with moving between countries and cultures. The class focused on the Americas (particularly Native Americans), but some discussion of Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Europe, Australia etc. Typically, (with some interesting exceptions) people entering an alien environment (even if they wanted to move) form themselves into same culture pockets.

As for example, my German ancestors who got into covered wagons and drove East into Russia to settle around the Black Sea. They built Germanic houses in ethnically German communities, which spoke German, in Russia, surrounded by Russian communities, which didn't speak German. Of course, generations later, still speaking German, they came to America where they assimilated into the Nordic hodge-podge that is the Dakotas. So, what's the difference? Why assimilate here and not there?

Why do we have all of these very distinct demonic tribes after millennium of living surrounded by humans?

Clearly, cross breeding is possible in a variety of ways and yet, we have been largely presented with groups of distinct types of demons with unique cultural norms.

Or have we...given that demons have been on earth since the "Old Ones" (large booming voice) left, I wonder how much early assimilation occurred. Maybe Tara is part demon, she just isn't a large enough percentage demon to qualify for a scholarship. Perhaps that's partially what they mean by there are no "true demons" on Earth. Perhaps most demons have a little human blood somewhere in the background. Perhaps, all humans have a little demon in them.
Pics from the Angel season opener -- spotjon, 14:54:07 09/13/01 Thu

Check them out at Cinescape.com. There's nothing too spoilerish in them.
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[> Re: Pics from the Angel season opener -- Dedalus, 16:14:10 09/13/01 Thu

Those are cool. Kicking a little monkish butt, eh?

Minor spoiler - I heard Angel was going to be mourning his lost love at a Himalayan monastery. That is so romantic. Once I have a lost love, I am so gonna mourn them in a Himalayan monastery.
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[> [> I tend to mourn mine with a sixer of Moosehead or Rolling Rock. -- A8, 16:50:10 09/13/01 Thu

Not too ambitious here.
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[> [> [> Re: LOL! -- Dedalus, 18:38:21 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> OT- Just read your "beauty and the beast" Essay Dedalus! Wonderful!:) :) -- Nina, 19:36:28 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> Re: Pics from the Angel season opener -- LadyStarlight, 08:07:33 09/14/01 Fri

I dunno about the monastery thing. For one thing, you'd have to drink ghee. And for another thing, it's really expensive to brood (snicker) in Tibet.

Which brings up a question I have. How is Angel getting the money to do stuff like go to Tibet? And how he went from having money in the Fifties, to eating rats in 1996/7, to living in style in Sdale? Or is this a magic clause thingie?
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[> The Angel season opener -- Helen, 02:08:53 09/14/01 Fri

Oh God, just how sexy is David looking?

May be Angel has been learning Tibetan relaxation and self control tehniques like Oz? Please please can someone tell me exactly what happens in the Angel season opener when its aired. Over in England we have no idea when or if Sky are going to show the new Buffy and Angel series. And the distress is too much to bear. That's it - they may be 30 quid each but I am going out and buying the Buffy 5 and Agel 2 box sets today.
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[> [> Re: The Angel season opener -UK -- carniriel, 08:00:55 09/14/01 Fri

I thought that Sky were set for January starts as usual? (flippin' well better be) - which means 3 months of avoiding my usual web hangouts! The Watchers' Web usually has reasonably up-to-date broadcast news....
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[> [> [> thanks - I've only recently got Sky, so I didn't know that. -- Helen, 08:05:32 09/14/01 Fri

No Buffy DVDs ... just Terrorist Ones?! -- Dedalus, 18:55:55 09/13/01 Thu

What kind of a world is it that we live in ...

I swear. Watching CNN with an uncle this afternoon, I actually saw that Osama Bin Laden had recruitment DVDs for his little terrorist regime! What the - ?!

In an effort to begin shifting topics from Terror to Buffy, why is it, and what does it say about us, that one can get recruitment DVDs for terrorist factions - but not even the first stinkin' season of Buffy?

And incidentally, I've seen some of the footage on these DVDs on the news, and I wasn't that impressed. Sure, ten year olds gleefully mowing down human targets with AK-47s makes for a striking visual, but I mean really, I'll take Buffy any day of the week.

It makes you wonder about the extras and so-called Easter Eggs this thing has on it. We all know the X-Men DVD has blooper footage of Spider-man running onto the set and then realizing he's in the wrong movie. What about here? Will Khadafi be coming up and realizing he's in the wrong recruitment film?

I mean, come on. This recruitment DVD does not even have THX sound, for crying out loud. Is Osama himself going to be giving a director's commentary over the footage? Will Sadaam wish to join in for additional comments? Will there be a chapter list, and if so, what will the chapters be called? "Die Capitalists Pigs, Die"? "The United States of America, or as We More Affectionately Call It, The Great Satan"? "Why George W. Bush is a Silly Little Man"? Is it going to have behind the scenes specials on the making of the recruitment DVD? Are there going to be hilarious outtakes from suicide bomber school, where the terrorists are in flight simulators and accidentally crash into the wrong building?

Either way, it's gonna be lame, and I want my Buffy DVDs.

And I know I'm not the only one here who feels the same way.
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[> hey Dedalus, please email me -- Liquidram, 21:25:39 09/13/01 Thu

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[> [> Re: I would ... -- Dedalus, 13:35:04 09/14/01 Fri

But I'm not at my own computer right now.
An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- A8, 02:04:14 09/14/01 Fri

Without all that insane troll logic that seemed to erupt down below.

In the past couple of days, there has been a great deal of debate as to what is to be the proper response to the terrorist acts that were committed on Tuesday. Some of it has been heated and personal. Everyone agrees that it was a tragedy. Not everyone agrees that violence, which by all accounts is the course the United States government will follow, is the correct means by which to resolve the conflict. The idealists believe that justice will only be served by punishing those responsible in a lawful and humane manner and that a violent response of any kind will only beget further violence. They believe that it is through reasoned dialogue that we can come to a mutual understanding that will eventually lead to the peaceful solution of the conflict. The proponents of a violent response have proposed a variety of response scenarios from mass retaliation against any and all persons, organizations, and nations who were in any way connected with the terror to the surgically precise assassination of only those directly responsible for the carnage. Both sides have dug in their heels, insisting that the other side yield to the logic of their argument. Then there are those who are tired of this whole thing already and wish to return to the comfort of the more escapist aspects this board has to offer (ATLTS).

While the discussions on this board owe their existence to the fictional world we sometimes refer to as the 'Jossverse,' the most thought-provoking exchanges IMHO have been those which connect the moral dilemmas of our fictional world to our experiences and choices in the 'Realverse.' Mind you, I love the goofy stuff as well. It's all about balance. Just like the gamut of opinions here.

Unfortunately, I had a little difficulty finding many Jossverse metaphors that address our debate. We all have probably memorized the relevant scene in 'The Gift', but as a refresher:

Ben: She could've killed me.
Giles: No she couldn't. And sooner or later Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy. And the world with her. Buffy even knows that. And still she couldn't take a human life. She's a hero you see. She's not like us.

Our idealists on the board seem to see the 'Ben' in those who perpetrated the violence in NYC and DC. We're all humans, some of us profoundly misguided, so it is inherently wrong to seek redress via violent retaliation. It would be lowering ourselves to the level of the Hell-god in the criminal. Giles is the pragmatist so he commits the act of unspeakable violence that Buffy could not. Convenient for her that she had him around to do her dirty work.

Concerning our discussion on the deaths of innocent people ('collateral damage' will be the term used when the US strikes back), from 'Consequences':

Buffy: And that's it? You just live with it? You see the dead guy in your head every day for the rest of your life?
Faith: Buffy, I'm not going to see anything. I missed the mark last night. And I'm sorry about the guy. I really am. But it happens. How many people do you think we saved by now? Thousands? Didn't you stop the world from ending? Because in my book, that puts you and me in the plus column.
Buffy: We help people. It doesn't mean we can do whatever we want.
Faith: Why not? The guy I offed was no Ghandi. You just saw it. The guy was mixed up in dirty dealings.
Buffy: Maybe. But what if he was coming to us for help?
Faith: What if he was? You're still not seeing the big picture B. Something made us different. We're warriors. We're built to kill.
Buffy: To kill demons. But it doesn't mean that we get to pass judgment on people like we're better than everyone else.
Faith: We are better. That's right. Better. People need us to survive. In the balance, nobody's gonna cry over some random bystander who got caught in the crossfire.
Buffy: I am.
Faith: Well, that's your loss.

Once again, Buffy can afford to be the idealist, because Faith is willing to do the dirty work and live its moral consequences (actually that's debatable--she seemed to care, but suppressed that with denial, but I'll just ignore all that because I'm lazy).

And because I just couldn't resist, here is relevant scene from the Deep Space Nine episode 'In the Pale Moonlight' where the hero, Captain Sisko, gets caught up in dirty dealings, but is forced to compromise his idealism to achieve a goal that will ultimately save millions of lives:

Sisko: You killed him.
Garak: That's right.
Sisko: That's what you planned to do all along, isn't it? You knew the data rod wouldn't hold up to scrutiny. You just wanted to get him on the station so that you could plant a bomb on his shuttle.
Garak: It wasn't quite that simple. I did have hopes that the rod would somehow pass inspection. But I suspected that Tolar may not have been up to the task.
Sisko: What about Tolar? Did you kill him too?
Garak: Think of them both as tragic victims of war. If you can allow your anger to subside for a moment, you'll see that they did not die in vain. The Romulans will enter the war.
Sisko: There's no guarantee of that.
Garak: Oh, but I think that there is. You see, when the Tal Shiar finishes examining the wreckage of Vreenak's shuttle, they'll find the burnt remnants of a Cardassian optolithic data rod which somehow miraculously survived the explosion. After painstaking forensic examination, they'll discover that the rod contains a recording of a high level Dominion meeting at which the invasion of Romulus was being planned.
Sisko: And they'll discover that it is a fraud!
Garak: Oh, I don't think they will. Because any imperfections in the forgery will appear to be a result of the explosion. So with a seemingly legitimate rod in one hand and a dead senator in the other, I ask you Captain, what conclusion would you draw?
Sisko: That Vreenak obtained the rod on Soukara and that the Dominion killed him to prevent him from returning to Romulus with it.
Garak: Precisely. And the more the Dominion protests its innocence, the more the Romulans will believe they're guilty because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. That's why you came to me...isn't it Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well it worked, and you'll get what you want. A war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the Alpha Quadrant. And all it took was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal...and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you. But I call that a bargain.
Sisko[monologue to camera]: At 0800 hours, station time...the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They've already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So this is a huge victory for the good guys! This may even be the big turning point of the entire war. There is even a 'Welcome to the Fight' party tonight in the ward room. So...I lied...I cheated...I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all...I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again...I would. Garak was right about one thing. A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I CAN live with it. I can live WITH it. Computer...erase that entire personal log.

Additionally from Deep Space Nine (Episode 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges'):

Sloane: Good evening.
Bashir: Are you expecting applause? Have you come to take a bow?
Sloane: No. I just wanted to say thank you.
Bashir: For what? For allowing you to manipulate me so completely?
Sloane: For being a decent human being. That's why we selected you in the first place Doctor. We needed somebody who wanted to play the game, but would only go so far. When the time came, you stood your ground. You did the right thing. You reached out to an enemy. You told her the truth. You tried to stop a murder. The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men of conscience. Men of principle. Men who can sleep at night. You're also the reason Section 31 exists. Someone had to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong.
Bashir: Should I feel sorry for you? Should I be weeping over the burden you're forced to carry in order to protect the rest of us?
Sloane: It is an honor to know you Doctor. Good night.

The monsters and demons of BtVS may not exist in our world, but we all acknowledge that Joss has used them as metaphors for evils that exist in fact. Same goes for the politics and aliens of DS9. This week we have all been impacted by evil in the real world. I believe that we have entered an era where events like the WTC and Pentagon massacres will be regular occurrences in the world at large, and the U.S. in particular, so we're going to have to adopt moral, physical and psychological strategies to cope with the fact that there are people out there that are going to try to kill us on a regular basis. Here are the real facts. On Tuesday, jet airplanes were used as bombs by people with no fear of death in order to kill innocent people in an diabolically efficient and dramatic fashion. The reason they used jets is that they have not yet developed nuclear and biological weapons capabilities. However, within the next decade, most likely, one of our cities will be the target of some crude form of mass destructive weaponry ("dirty" nuke, or bioweapon). End of the world zealots came that close to inflicting mass destruction on Japan with chemical weapons a few years ago and Sadaam Hussein was only 6 months to a year away from constructing a small nuclear capability when his plans were interrupted by the Gulf War. This is reality, not science fiction, and not the Buffyverse. There are evil people out there who hate everyone that is not them. They will always exist and no form of accomodation short of our deaths will appease them.

Those among us who feel the only moral option is to seek peaceful solutions may have to learn to live with the fact that some people they know and care about are going to be the targets and possibly victims of the violence. It will be up to them to figure out how they will react when the violence hits them directly. It will be up to others who are not as morally idealistic to protect themselves and, in the process, the idealists, from the danger. And I think that's fine. All violence is tragic, even that which must be used to serve a just cause (and, well, personally, I like to live so that's just cause enough for me). I have a great deal of respect for the idealists here because I'll never be one. I'm way too jaded and cynical. Plus, I believe there is just way too much history that supports my realistic view of the world. I don't wish the idealists to change their opinions one degree. Extremism on both sides is necessary so that the majority can arrive at a practical option somewhere in the middle. Most likely, the middle option will have the effect of minimizing the violence by containing it. What this means is that the problem will never really be solved one way or another. Instead, the middle ground serve only to reduce the number of casualties. Unfortunately, it will also mean accepting a higher level of violence in our day to day lives than we were accustomed to before September 11, 2001.

With Giles only making infrequent guest appearances in the upcoming season, will Buffy be forced to get her hands dirty, or will another Scooby step into that role--play Garak to her Sisko, or Sloane to her Bashir?

A8
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[> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Helen, 03:31:32 09/14/01 Fri

Whoa, A8, amazing post. I've often thought Buffy is far from the Saint that she is often thought of as being. As you point out, she has been able to occupy the moral high ground because there are those - Giles and Faith, but also the other members of the Scooby gang, who are prepared to get their hands dirty.

As Buffy said: "I like my evil like I like my men. Evil." If there is the slightest shade of grey, she is confused and prevaricates (I do see it as prevarication rather than simply being too good to, for example, kill Ben). Others then have to step in. Pangs was a prime example of this, although it was a while ago. Confused by the origins of the spirits attacking her, she was unable to act, until it was almost too late. The reactions of the others were telling: Spike pointed out the obvious: "It's kill or be killed here. Take your bloody pick." Giles sympathised with the Shumash warrior's POV, but still wanted to act. Willow channelled her mother's views on the oppression of indigenous people, until she herself was directly threatened, upon which she became ruthless (and felt guilty afterwards). Xander was suffering from the beginning, so he was all for the fight. And Angel didn't even bother to acquaint himself with the origins or aims of the attacker - someone threatened his beloved, that someone was toast.

Who will do her dirty work in the future - spoilers have suggested she'll be doing it herself. But I bet Spikey will be right beside her (yes, all threads have started to return to Spike).
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[> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Jean, 06:26:03 09/14/01 Fri
The part of "the gift" that really made an impact on me was that in the end Buffy didn't defeat Glory. It took Giles to adminster the final blow.

This is just like in real life. Good can never defeat evil. The only time evil is defeated is when good people employ evil means. Dietrich Bonhoeffer realized that. That is what he means by "it is better to do evil, than to be evil."

You talk of Deep Space Nine. I am a fan of Star Trek the Original series. The episode "the Savage Curtain" especially the speech that Lincoln said in that episode said it all.

And then after the battle was over the alien said that he still couldn't see any difference between the methods that good uses and evil uses. Kirk ask the alien what did the alien offer the bad guys had they won. The alien replied power. Kirk replied, you offered me the lives of my crew.
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[> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Brian, 09:00:49 09/14/01 Fri
America talks of the war on terrorists. Eventually, we will take action, and it will be long and bloody, and good people will die as we carry out our vengence. We will use fire to fight fire, and will we become no different from the people we are fighting?

Buffy uses fire to fight fire. She slays vampires, demons, etc. that prey on Mankind. Will she be tainted by her actions?

This year she did have Giles to do the dirty work, the wet work. But what about the future?

When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back. But maybe that's ok. We saw that Buffy was willing to sacrifice her life to save Mankind. Maybe she will be ok with sacrificing part of her soul so that others may live and prosper, and be free.

A long time ago I wrote a poem about Sampson. If I find it, I would like to post it. The last line goes something like: "And he smiles, content, as walls come crashing down."
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[> [> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Dedalus, 13:57:35 09/14/01 Fri
As I said, I can be on both sides of every equation. I want blood and peace at the same time.

I don't know where this is headed. Nothing like stating the obvious. I'm just not sure this thing can be won. We declared war, but we don't even know against who. We spend one minute singing "God bless America," and the next suiting up to go to war. America has long claimed itself as a Christian nation, yet this is not very representative of it. According to things like the fifth chapter of Matthew, I think, where it says if one cheek is slapped, we should turn the other to be struck also. Or if someone goes to steal one piece of clothing, we should give him our robe as well. How exactly does that fit in with a nation going to war? And pretty gleefully so, according to the polls.

That was just my point about people not really examining their beliefs in times like this, merely frantically diving back into the old ones. And not even doing that well. I'm not saying non-violence even works in today's world, I'm just pointing out inconsistencies.

If we were truly and honestly evaluating our beliefs, I'm sure someone, somewhere, anywhere, would be pointing out the ironic nature of our position.
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[> [> [> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Susan, 17:08:36 09/14/01 Fri
"America has long claimed itself as a Christian nation, yet this is not very representative of it."

We didn't treat Germany in a Christian matter then, I guess.

What a ironic argument with all the talk of separation of Church and state. I thought we WEREN'T supposesd to mix religion and politics.

And by the way, Detrich Bonhoeffer was able to reconcile his strong Christian principles with his participation in a illegal plot to Murder the elected leader of his country.

To escape sin may be the ulitimate guilt.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Dedalus, 19:56:07 09/14/01 Fri
Well, it made sense to me ...
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[> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Mary, 17:37:35 09/14/01 Fri
I have great respect for idealists like Buffy. I feel there are those out there who really "aren't like us".

But I also feel like there are those out there who use "idealism" as an excuse. There are those who pretend to be "idealistic" to avoid doing what needs to be done. They aren't really "idealists", just cowards.

I have great respect for the "Sloans" out there. The "Giles" out there. We need Section 31. We need Section One.

Things are going to get a lot more ugly before they get better. Most of us know not of war. We have no idea.

It is better to do evil, than to be evil. No mercy until victory is achieved.
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[> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Jean, 18:08:02 09/14/01 Fri
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is my favorite show.

La Femme Nikita is my second favorite.

Both shows have philosophies that we can learn much from.
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[> We might have to fight on their level, but there is a difference. -- Jean, 17:56:19 09/14/01 Fri
A8, anyone who doesn't understand that should go to the following link:

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/hoskins/85/ep-77.htm

Here are the key quotes to consider:

"One matter further, gentlemen.", continues Lincoln. "We fight on their level -- with trickery, brutality -- finality. We match their evil." (The screen flashes to a view of the rock being absorbing the unfolding drama) Kirk looks at the figure of Lincoln questioningly. "I know, James. I was reputed to be a gentle man. But I was commander-in-chief during the four bloodiest years of my country's history. I gave orders that sent --- a hundred thousand men to their death -- at the hands of their brothers." Lincoln pauses for a moment, lost in thought - then continues. "*sigh* There's no honorable way to kill - no gentle way to destroy. There's nothing good in war except its ending. And *sigh again*, you're fighting for the lives of your crew."

"You are the survivors.", it states flatly. "The others have run off. It would seem that evil retreats when forcibly confronted. However. You have failed to demonstrate to me any other difference between your philosophies. Your good and your evil use the same methods. Achieve the same results. Do you have an explanation?"

You established the methods, and the goals!", Kirk exclaims, pointing at the being.

"For you to use as you chose.", answers the creature.

Kirk demands, "What did you offer the others, if they won?"

"What they wanted most. Power."

Kirk lowers his head and explains, "You offered me -- the lives of my crew."

Anyone who says that we "will be just like them" just doesn't understand. We must do what we have to regardless of how much it might offend some people's sensibilities. We must send a message. NEVER AGAIN! NEVER AGAIN!
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[> [> Re: We might have to fight on their level, but there is a difference. -- Jean, 18:04:26 09/14/01 Fri
By the way A8, I believe that your post is the most articulate discussion of this subject that I have read for some time. Too many people on this board seem to want to turn away. To cocoon themselves in fantasy and avoid the very real evil outside the door.

A "return to normancy" plays into the enemy's hands. For all that evil needs to flourish is for good people to do nothing. We must not turn away. We must face reality head on, for it will not go away. Just like Glory didn't go away. Buffy had to face her head on.

September 11, 2001, nothing can ever be the same again.
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[> [> [> Thanks, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across. -- A8, 19:08:53 09/14/01 Fri
I understand exactly what you've been saying. It is very alid. Everybody's viewpoint here is valid. Everybody is going to have to deal with this in their own way. The sheer enormity of what happened on Tuesday is probably too much for a lot of people to process. I'm still having a hard time believing it even though I was sure the last time the WTC was bombed that it was only a matter of time before a bigger, more tragic act would be committed. Honestly, I thought a "dirty" nuke or chemical weapon would have been detonated here by some nut or another by now.

I honestly don't think that anyone here is cocooning themselves or doing the ole ostrich head in the sand routine. Some people have very strong convictions against the use of violence. Believe it or not, there were many conscientious objectors during WWII, and some did prison time for following their convictions. Many are whole heartedly against the death penalty. And I respect them for that. There are some people out there, I'm sure, who believe in summary execution. That's an extreme position that I would have a hard time ever agreeing with under any circumstances. While I have my opinions on things, I always tend to fall in the gray areas. Call me wishy washy or just human, but these issues are too serious and complex to merit knee jerk responses.

What happens from this time forward is largely out of our hands, except that we can live well, without fear and pursue with gusto those things that make our lives worth living. We live in a new world now. Our freedom, security and basic beliefs will be tested. We may find ourselves questioning our own morals at times, which I think is healthier than being so sure of ourselves that we make some fatal irreversible mistake. In any event, we must keep our heads, respect our fellow US citizens (however different their opinions are from ours) and fellow world citizens no matter how different their cultures and politics are from ours. Any action we take should be within the bounds of reason lest we become like the mob that 'lynched' Angel in 'Have You Now Or Have You Ever Been.' We must always be conscious of the gravity of the use of violence even when we are certain it is justified. Like I said, whatever we do, I don't believe it can bring us absolute security, safety, or peace of mind. That's very unsettling.

All I've really ever wanted to do myself is make a little music, share interesting experiences with friends, and weather life's ups and downs in peace. Good books, good art, good music, and thought- provoking (oh yeah, irreverent, silly, and frivilous as well) discussions about a relatively insignificant TV show (in the overall scheme of things) is not too much to ask for in life.

Vive la difference! (I have absolutely no idea how that is supposed to be spelled--sue me).

A8
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[> [> [> [> Pssssst....A8! -- Wisewoman, 19:31:17 09/14/01 Fri
I'll apologize if I'm wrong, but I think it's the trolls again. Susan, Mary, Jean--all quoting and linking Bonhoeffer...mighty suspicious, I think.

(And Susan was on last night as the counterpart to "Sean the Troll")

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Don't leave out "Maple" -- d'Herblay, 19:33:24 09/14/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I caught it. I just didn't want to much taint on what I thought was an okay essay. -- A8, 19:38:19 09/14/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I give up. No more heavy lifting for me. Just partying on the Titanic from now on! Woo-Hoo! -- A8, 19:40:19 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's like magic... -- Wisewoman, 19:43:47 09/14/01 Fri
..as soon as you mention the word "troll," they disintegrate faster'n a dusted vamp!

I sympathize with you, A8. It was a great initial post...

;o)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across. -- Jean, 19:48:01 09/14/01 Fri
The only reason the "idealists" out there can exist is because of those who are willing to do what it takes.

It almost seems selfish for the idealists to hold on to their ideals as they are dependent on others who are willing to give a bit of their soul. Sacrifice their principles for the sake of others.

All we want from life is basically like you said. We don't want to harm others. We want to have friends, enjoy various methods of entertainment, get married, have children, but unfortunately evil has a way of disrupting all of that.

You say you respect "idealists". I do as well. True ones. But I have to admit that I respect just a little bit more the Sloans, the Giles, for without them we just simply would not exist. It is because of them that we have the luxury to have "idealists" in our society.

There will be a time again in our society to present our "idealists" front and center. But now isn't the time. Now is Ripper Time.

By the way, since you are such a Star Trek fan, I have another episode for you to consider. Again, from the original series, and it is called The City on the Edge of Forever.

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/hoskins/85/ep-28.htm

McCoy goes back in time to 1930 and saves the life of a "idealist" named Miss Keeler. By doing so he made it possible for evil to take over earth.

It wasn't the time for an "idealist". Nor is it now!
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[> Re: My Last Word on This -- Dedalus, 20:30:24 09/14/01 Fri
There are no easy answers for this thing. And I agree, troll or no, now is the time to do what needs to be done. Unfortunate, but there it is. And our resolve is strong.

I had a good opportunity to watch PB tv tonight, and Charlie Rose was hosting this special with all these people talking. It featured Bill Moyers interviewing a NY columnist. I kept hoping he would mention Campbell, but he didn't. The interview was great though. He spoke of how NY was such a melting pot already, that fanaticism and holy wars weren't going to get very far with NYers. He also mentioned how important humor was in all this, humor and self-righteousness being antithetical in most cases. It was great. Charlie Rose also had several Muslims on there, talking about their faith. And the general consensus is is that we will not give into blanket accusations and feed into hatred. Isolated incidents maybe, but we are part of an international world now. The Americans interviewed seemed genuinely concerned and they talked about how important it is to teach our kids about other cultures.

The one striking thing was that Moyers mentioned Jerry Falwell had told Pat Robertson today that this terrorist attack had happened because God was punishing us for allowing women to be on the supreme court and because we were becoming so tolerant of gays. Moyers muttered something about now we know who is responsible, and with all the irony in the world turned to the camera and said, "Let God be praised."

This is going to be unlike any war fought, because we are in a position we've never been in before. Never before have Americans been so conscious or so respectful of other cultures. Never have we had the internet linking people together. Never have we had so many nations coming together and condemning such an act. No one wants this to happen except maybe a handful of fanatics.

It just seems to me - idealist and realist in one - that we have turned a corner somewhere. I can't explain it. I just have some great, unconscious feeling that this is so painful but in the long run things will be better. No one wants to live in terror. Not even the Taliban. We are going to fight, and we may hate the ones we fight, but we are not going to hate anyone else. The barriers are coming down like never before - between men and women, blacks and whites, gays and straights. When have we ever been more accepting? Traveling around, the Dalai Lama sensed this fundamental change too. We're coming out of our isolation, and slowly realizing we're part of the world. All of us.

With so many of our Cold War enemies gone, and even China coming to our aid on this, we stand at the threshold of something remarkable. There is so much solidarity going on here, unlike anything I've ever seen. Maybe it took an act so horrific in order to shake us out of our complacency one last time, to break down those few scattered, remaining prejudices and tribal hatreds. This I hope. The idea of religious tolerance is especially important to me personally. And if the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of the world want us to go invade Palestine and force those people at gunpoint to convert to Christianity, as Moyers said, the only "kindred spirits" they would find are in the Taliban regime.

This is not going to change life as we know it forever. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There may very well be retaliation, but I don't think they will ever manage this scale again. I truly don't. I think we will be successful in our campaigns, and I think it will help make the world realize we don't want to live like this. We are at the forefront of the world's stage, and so far are presenting ourselves pretty well. If we could come to some sort of terms with what has been going on in the Middle East for so long, I think we would be coming to terms with our own selves, since our own religions began there. And once we get that out of the way, the universe is the limit for we puny mortals.

This is our chance. This is our time to begin to rethink a lot of things. Moyers once asked Campbell if he thought humankind was still standing on the brink of a great leap of unheard of proportions and implications, and Campbell replied, "the greatest ever." Maybe so.

Cheers all.
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[> [> Re: say, Dedalus.... -- mundusmundi, 12:31:40 09/16/01 Sun
Did you happen to catch the part where Moyers introduced a poem written after JFK was shot? It was incredibly moving, recited over stills of Tuesday's disaster, but I was wondering if you or anyone else knows the poet, the name of the poem, and the words? Thx. -mm
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[> [> [> Surfed and found... -- Wisewoman, 14:55:50 09/16/01 Sun
..is this it?

Waltzing the Spheres Susan Scott Thompson

We pulled each other closer in the turn around a center that we could not see- This holding on was what I had to learn.

The sun can hold the planets, earth the moon, but we had to create our gravity by always pulling closer in the turn. Each revolution caused my head to whirl so dizzily I wanted to break free, but holding on was what I had to learn.

I fixed my eyes on something out there firm, and then our orbit steadied so that we could pull each other closer in the turn.

The joy that circles with us round the curve is joy that passes surely as a peace, and holding on is what we have to learn.

And if our feet should briefly leave the earth, no matter, earth was made for us to leave, and arms for pulling closer in the turn -
This holding on is what we have to learn.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Beautiful poem -- mm, 15:12:10 09/16/01 Sun
But it was something more downbeat and specifically tailored for the event (JFK's, I mean). If I could remember the author (male, maybe Frost?) that would help.
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[> [> [> [> [> Still looking... -- Wisewoman, 18:01:33 09/16/01 Sun
Try this site:

http://www.pbs.org/americaresponds/poem.html
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: By gum, you're right! -- mm, 19:32:18 09/16/01 Sun
Somehow it sounded different on the show. Dunno what I was thinking. You really are wise. :)

*mundus thumps noggin, hears faint rattle*
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I've said it before...I live to surf! -- Wisewoman, 20:35:56 09/16/01 Sun
Food for thought -- SpeedHead, 09:15:45 09/14/01 Fri
Nostrodamus 1654

"In the year of the new century and nine months, From the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. Fire approaches the great new city..."

45 degree N Latitude = NYC

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb", the third big war will begin when the big city is burning" -

two brothers = two towers of WTC? {weren't 2 of the pilots brothers?} fortress = Pentagon?
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[> Sorry, dude, that's a hoax. -- Solitude1056, 09:23:16 09/14/01 Fri
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[> Re: Food for nought -- Voxpopuli, 09:44:17 09/14/01 Fri
Nostradamus and those cards with ink spots on (could spell the guys'name...) are very similar indeed...
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[> Dude, if you're gonna hoax, get your facts straight -- d'Herblay, 10:46:06 09/14/01 Fri
New York City is at 40” 40' N latitude. You're off by 280 miles. Nostradamus died in 1566, and, since the Gregorian calendar wasn't adopted until 1582, Nostradamus would have seen a) September as the seventh month; b) the attacks as occuring in August.
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[> [> don't shoot the messenger -- SpeedHead, 10:47:22 09/14/01 Fri
I just got an email and passed it on. didn't write it myself, didn't even say I believed it.
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[> [> [> Ok, my nerves are a bit frayed now . . . -- d'Herblay, 11:06:03 09/14/01 Fri
. . and we're getting trolled left and right (but mostly right), and I don't know you (but if you stick around you will be welcomed, so please do), so I apologize if I'm snarky. But you signed your post so you have to take responsibility for its contents. If you don't know by now that e-mail is not a reliable factsource, go here, they're debunking the Nostradamus e-mail as we speak; or here, also with news on the Nostradamus hoax; and, of course, here.

I was unaware that the Nostradamus e-mail was so widespread an urban legend when I responded to your post. As I said, there's a lot of trolling these days, and I'm a little on guard. But why are you spreading ideas that you don't share? And why am I doing your critical thinking for you?
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[> [> [> [> Didn't read that it was a hoax, til now. Totally ashamed :( -- SpeedHead, 11:13:43 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> Don't give up on us SpeedHead--stick around, we'll be back to normal soon! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 12:48:03 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> *Deep Sigh* Was wondering when Nostradamus was going to get mentioned - - mundusmundi, 11:45:32 09/14/01 Fri
Though I hear AICN and Wanda both made accurate calls.

I know, bad joke. My nerves are frayed too.
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[> [> [> [> [> Much needed LOL -- d'Herblay, 12:40:26 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> We're a bit on edge around here, that's all. ... And if I may add... -- Solitude1056, 11:43:34 09/14/01 Fri
Honestly, d'Herb is usually a very laid-back person, but d'H isn't the only one of us getting a bit jumpy. Your post - regardless of its authenticity - would normally be considered off-topic. This board was created to discuss philosophy and the Jossverse, and we're trying hard to slowly get ourselves back onto those threads and off these non-topic events. If that means that we're silent for a week or two, until the new episodes start, then so be it. We've hashed, re-hashed, and re-re-hashed just about everything and anything we can concerning the last season, so we're more than ready for some distraction. However, the current events distraction is not a pleasant one, and it's making things kinda tense around here. Normally we can - and do - discuss things without getting personal, but Tuesday's events are nearly impossible to deal with on an impersonal level, and too many of us are still raw.

Rather than continue to debate ourselves into anarchy, many of us have responded to Liquidram's call by agreeing that it's time to step away from Tuesday. There are other places we can discuss those events; this board is specifically for the Jossverse and its philosophical elements. So that means... getting off that topic & back onto the real purpose of this board, and back into the philosophy swing of things. Now, if you can think up a way to make it topical, and relating to the Buffyverse, then go for it.

Thanks.
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[> [> [> [> I second that emotion.... again. -- Liquidram, 12:04:26 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> But Sol, where do we draw the line? -- A8, 12:22:30 09/14/01 Fri
We all agree that this board is much more than "Spike is so kewl" or merely discussing the technical aspects fo the show's production. The real world and how it applies to the fiction we love so much is a major part of the discourse here. We're not monks or ivory tower eggheads, although sometimes we do philosophize in idealistic terms. However, we quite frequently bring events from our personal lives and experiences into the discussion to illustrate our viewpoints on one Buffy issue or another. Some of our topics are less down-to-earth than others. Life and death is about as down-to-earth as I can imagine.

I suppose my post, below, crosses the line a bit, but it was an honest effort to bring us back somewhat to the on topical focus of the board. Maybe I'm wrong. One thing's for certain, once the first new episode airs, this board will be filled with so much debate as to the various aspects of Ms. B's resurrection (rebirth? Whatever.) to leave much room for this tragedy which is going to be with us for the rest of our lives. Perhaps it's a good thing that people have a chance to vent (and vent passionately) here rather than let the confusion of emotions stew, prompting more drastic action. If it prevents one ethnic slur, one bomb threat, or one hit child or spouse (not that ANY of the regulars here would ever, ever do something like that--but there's no accounting for the stray's or shy lurkers out there), I really don't mind the board clutter. It can be quickly erased and/or left out of the archives.

Just my two pennies.

A8
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[> [> [> [> [> I agree, and if I might add . . . -- d'Herblay, 13:02:28 09/14/01 Fri
. . I've only been posting here for two months (and perhaps because I've had only summer exposure, I have a different standard of "off-topic" than others), but in a way it seems like home and the posters here like friends. And this is a time when we need friends, and a subject that we cannot help but discuss. Yes, there have been arguments and trolling spread here since Tuesday, but there have also been connections and healing. I'm afraid that if we consciously and conscientiously limit ourselves to Buffy-topics, there will be little but an eerie silence for the next few days. All threads will lead to Tuesday, for a while, no matter how we try to avoid it. It's on everyone's minds, yes, but I don't think that's reason enough to sever the connections between those minds.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> All threads lead to Tuesday. -- Humanitas, 13:22:13 09/14/01 Fri
In time, that will mean Tuesday night, at 8 o'clock EST, on UPN.

Or Monday night, at 9 o'clock EST, on the WB.

Or whenever the re-runs are on in your area.

We will take all our Tuesdays back.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree, and if I might add . . . -- OnM, 21:31:18 09/14/01 Fri
The people who post here are self-aware enough to realize when it's time to let it go, and they will. I did my little rant in my CMotW post this week, so now I feel better. I would also like to relate the following, which was something that occurred today that warmed my soul a bit.

The following text is from a half-page 'ad' in my local paper, by a large department store chain named Boscov's, which is fairly well known here in SE PA.

In light of the devastating events of September 11, 2001, our usual advertising seems rather unimportant for today. We join the nation in grieving for the loss of so many innocent lives and express our deep sympathy to their families and loved ones. We also join the rest of the nation in extending support by helping our communities participate in the disaster relief efforts. Currently, all local blood banks have been overwhelmed. However, the need for blood will be ongoing. Please watch our ads for a time in the near future when Boscov's Auditorium will be used as a blood bank site. Individuals who would like to make a contribution to the Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund may bring their donations to Boscov's Courtesy Desk.

Well, how 'bout that. Guess money isn't everything after all.

:)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, money isn't. -- Solitude1056, 22:53:50 09/14/01 Fri
A week from tomorrow, all Outback Steakhouses (for you non-vegetarians) will be open from 11am to 2pm, I think it is. The restaurant is donating all the food, and the waitrons are donating their time, and the kitchens are donating their time, too. The cost for adults is $20, for kids is like $12. Limited menu... but the total amount of profits, ALL OF IT, will go to the Red Cross.

And meanwhile AT&T has turned off all the phone charges on all payphones within the radius of the World Trade Centers so rescue personnel can call in to family friends etc whenever they need/want... as well as handed out several hundred cell phones with unlimited usage for Red Cross and rescue workers.

Nope, money isn't everything, but sometimes folks just need to reminded of that.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Waitrons? Now we've got robot waiter/waitresses?? -- OnM, 15:21:59 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nope. Patrons, Waitrons. I think it's a gender- neutral kinda thing. -- Solitude1056, 16:07:32 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sadly, for some it is -- mundusmundi, 06:56:03 09/15/01 Sat
On Tuesday, a local gas station owner hiked his prices to $6.00/gallon. Amazingly, though another station was $1.79 across the street, some people were paying it. Suffice to say he got mucho flak in the press, apologized, offered refunds, and is now down to .99 cents. And justice for all.
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[> [> [> [> Similar, in a way, to the debate on sports -- mundusmundi, 13:45:31 09/14/01 Fri
Should football and baseball have played this weekend, or were they right to call off? Those arguing that they should have played think it's important that we have an escape from this stuff, that we show "Them" that we can go about our lives, as we did with JFK, Munich Olympics, etc. Those taking the latter position have reminded us that there are still bodies being pulled out of the wreckage and that engaging in relatively frivolous athletic events would be disrespectful to the victims and their families. In this instance, I understand the first position but support the second. Games can wait for a few more days. And here in the Masqverse, while I've pretty much spewed my last specific thoughts on the subject (this ramble excepted), I understand if others still need to vent. It's good to talk about it. On the other hand, I see the danger in obsessing too much. It's tough to know when and where to draw the line, and there are times when just dropping the keyboard is the right course of action. (I just came back from a walk in the park, and it was lovely to just let my mind drift and my body follow.)

Anyway, this is really Masq's show, and I'll respect her call if and when she says enough is enough. I would agree, though, with those who say that Buffy is not an escape from reality. It's a window to reality, and thus there are metaphors-o'-plenty to help us deal with our present experiences. (If that last bit sounds like a plug for A8's excellent essay below, well, that's because it is.)
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[> [> [> [> [> Hey, thanks. I wasn't sure anybody but the few who responded read it. -- A8, 13:48:08 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Similar, in a way, to the debate on sports -- Scout, 16:53:15 09/14/01 Fri
I've been in lurk mode for quite a while but, hey, mm, what you said nailed it for me. As an American living in Britain, I'm feeling a bit isolated; this board helps (and I mean *all* of you, not just the other Yanks). I would hate to see any and all discussion of the week's events curtailed, for the next few days anyway. I've been avidly following the threads this week while at the same time trying to make sense (unsuccessfully) of what's happened in NYC and DC. I feel lost sometimes and I cry a lot. Still, the lure of you guys keeps me rushing up here to my computer in between big doses of CNN and BBC. To touch base.

It's funny, it was only last week that I was wishing something would take my mind off of 2nd October. Now I'm thinking of the old curse, "Be careful what you wish for".

Best regards to all of you, (and A8, you rock, dude!)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, Scout! Welcome back!! Don't be a stranger... ;o) -- Wisewoman, 17:03:02 09/14/01 Fri
You've been lurking while we've been missing you? Shame!

Only a few more weeks 'til new eps, and then we'll all have lots to talk about. In the meantime, let's hear your tuppence worth now and then.

;o)
1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- d'Herblay, 14:50:25 09/14/01 Fri
It's quickly becoming apparent that we need to blow off a little steam. Tensions are frayed, nerves are frazzled, and we all need a night of laughter and companionship. Which is why I am announcing the First Anniversary Posting Board Costume Ball! Snacks will be served! The only requirement is that you must come dressed as your posting board alias.

With Rufus, Isabel and Little One in catsuits and Purplegrrl in body paint, there will eye candy enough to keep JBone happy. I doubt very much that Kerri could possibly impersonate a dog. We'll finally find out if Sam Gangee and Slayrunt are short enough, or VampRiley tall enough to carry off their roles. A8 will need seven other Anthonys to precede him in. And there will be poor voyageofbeagle, dressed as an initial bout of seasickness and over five thousand specimens.

Some of us will envy John Burwood, Helen, gds, spotjon and Brian. Sure Cleanthes can whip up a chiton out of hotel linen, and Dedalus can find Irish student wear in any thrift shop, but fresne and I are looking at serious cash outlays for period French finery. And I have no idea where Drizzt will find mithril chain mail +4.

Sol will have to muster enormous willpower to sit in the corner not talking to anyone. Rowan will be rooted in place while Lurker Becoming Restless peers in through the window, bouncing on the balls of his feet trying to get a better view. Liq will be darting out to the ladies' room every five minutes to change her costume; and when the tapas tip over, the sangria gets spilled, and the guacamole crashes on the floor, we'll know that Malandanza is nearby, muttering "la mierda sucede."

We will be polite and let Wisewoman decide for herself whether or not she can come as she is.

Though the Francophiles will be financially taxed dressing for the ball, the Latinists will find it conceptually taxing. I for one am quite curious as to what "the (secular) world of the (secular) world" looks like, exactly. Vox Populi will have to repeat what everyone in the room says. Humanitas will try to convey what separates us from the beasts while we debate what his costume is exactly, and whether or not Spike has one.

And, of course, our hostess will have to find a meta-costume and come as all of us.

(My apologies to Nina, anom, Marie, Cactus Watcher, vampire hunter D, Millan, Lady Starlight, Jahover, Ryuei, Shaglio, Rattletrap, and anyone else I haven't mentioned. You're all invited, and I'm looking forward to seeing your costumes, as I can't imagine what they'll be!)
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[> Masquerade will go incognito -- M, 14:57:10 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Re: Cognito? Is that like a really tidy gear or something? -- OnM, 21:07:11 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Actually, one third of the oft misunderstood Latin comedy trio Cogito Ergo Sum;-) -- A8, 21:36:32 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Oops!Blew joke by correctly spelling for a change. Correction: Cognito Ergo Sum.:-0 -- A8, 21:42:03 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> That's incognito ergo sum -- Masq, 21:45:54 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Yikes and zounds! Foiled by the Masque'd one! I yield to your greatness! [Bows head.... -- A8, 21:57:53 09/14/01 Fri
..retreats...in slow reverence...groveling...eyes averted...mumbling to self...in jibberish...]
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> So what's the Latin for "I Think Too Much, therefore I Am?" -- Humanitas, 11:24:53 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cogito nimis, ergo sum -- d'Herblay, 14:54:35 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh wait! I'm in the running for Third Evil! It's . . . "Nunquam ubi sub ubi" -- d'Herblay, 15:09:01 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> "Numfar wears underwear?" - That must chafe during the dance of joy! -- Humanitas, 17:42:27 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> hey, that's my button! -- anom, 21:42:03 09/15/01 Sat
I actually had a button made once that said "Cognito ergo sum." It was supposed to mean "I am aware, therefore I am" in bad Latin.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> I guess that's way better than my button that says............ -- Rufus, 22:41:06 09/15/01 Sat
You're ugly.....and your mom dresses you funny!

Don't ask me what the friend that gave it to me was thinking, and sorry, it's not even in Latin....:):):)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Or mine... -- A8, 00:53:02 09/16/01 Sun
..which says: "roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I...and so am I...and so am I...and so am I...and so am I...and so am I...and so am I."
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I had a multiple personality disorder once... -- OnM, 15:33:14 09/16/01 Sun
..but all the rest of the personalities got really bored and left.

It's OK though. Now I've got you guys!

;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Does that mean you'd like a group hug....:):):) -- Rufus, 16:11:08 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, that'd be good, but what I really want to do is direct! :-) -- OnM, 19:37:49 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It just figures...everyone wants to be a director.........:):):) -- Rufus, 22:42:29 09/16/01 Sun
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[> see spot post -- spotjon, 15:00:28 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> ??? -- M, 15:24:09 09/14/01 Fri
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[> Doesn't the presence of the Latinists imply a toga party? ;-) -- Humanitas, 15:16:50 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Toga!! Toga!! Toga!! Toga!! Toga!! Toga!! Toga!! -- VampRiley, 19:32:17 09/14/01 Fri
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Brian, 15:20:00 09/14/01 Fri
Let's see...

Nina - can come as a Russian gypsy or a musical spirit of the night; anom - can come as everyone we can't recognize; Marie - can come as a missing boat or dressed in blue, or witout Tony;
Cactus Watcher - can come with a slo-mo camera or as a very quiet vegetarian vampire hunter D - can come with A,B, and C and do special Slayer moves with super coordination; Millan - can come as an Italian city, or a great pasta dish; Lady Starlight - can come as tne night in a gown of blue and silver; Jahover, Ryuei, Shaglio - all can come with robes and swords, and tell 1001 stories of dashing adventure and rare beauties of charm and grace; and Rattletrap can come as the Flubber car, or a really testy snake.
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Cactus Watcher, 16:04:37 09/14/01 Fri
I'll be the one dressed as Giles standing beside the prickly pear!
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[> [> [> *groan* bad, bad!! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 18:45:46 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Re: *groan* bad, bad!! ;-) -- Cactus Watcher, 19:02:51 09/14/01 Fri
It's Buffy site and nobody knows what a watcher looks like? Good grief! ;o)
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[> [> 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Fred, the obvious bureaucrat, 11:10:25 09/15/01 Sat
Fred can show up as the worst of all possible monsters -- a government bureaucrat. Briefcase optional.
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[> [> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- VampRiley, 13:54:20 09/15/01 Sat
I think it would all depend on what type of government bureaucrat you were. If you were involved in subsidizing Joss and company, I think you might be welcomed. At least here anyway.



VR
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- anom, 21:52:29 09/15/01 Sat
"anom - can come as everyone we can't recognize"

Except that's anomalous, not anonymous. Don't know if you'd be able to recognize me by that alone.
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[> [> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Brian, 10:29:26 09/16/01 Sun
Whoops! Sorry! I'll be more alert next time.
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Shaglio, 06:23:06 09/17/01 Mon
I think I'd come in a purple crushed velvet suit with a frilly collared white dress shirt. Yeah baby! O Beeee-have!
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[> [> Hunh? -- Marie, 06:51:42 09/17/01 Mon
Marie - can come as a missing boat or dressed in blue, or witout Tony

What??? Am I being particularly thick today? Missing boat? Dressed in blue?

And from the basement, Spike's growling "Who the bloody hell is Tony!!" See what trouble you guys can get a girl into?!

Marie

(By the way, I'd have to come as a Red Dragon, wouldn't I?)
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[> I've got a globe-costume, but can't get through the door -- mundusmundi, party crasher, 15:30:50 09/14/01 Fri
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[> Your good manners are appreciated... -- Wisewoman, 15:58:00 09/14/01 Fri
But I will have to dress as someone else, entirely!

The togas sound good. Nice and comfy. Or possibly gypsy garb, complete with small book of soul- restoring curses?

Or, given our recent discussions, perhaps black leather corsetry with 5 inch stilletos and chains?

I'll set my mind to it, and try to come up with a wise choice.

;o)
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[> [> Gee, I was expecting a fairy godmother! ..... (bwahahaha) -- Solitude1056, 18:27:50 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> How about Galadriel from LOTR? -- A8, 19:12:28 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Um, I've heard Liv Tyler speak Elvish, I don't think I could handle it... -- Wisewoman, 19:15:16 09/14/01 Fri
The Welsh Marie probably could, though!
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[> [> [> [> [> Don't worry, we can always dub it in in post-production. Getting surreal here.{:-D -- A8, 19:21:04 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Getting? What's this getting? The rest of us have been there for awhile now! -- Solitude1056, 22:47:12 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, been experimenting with tantric surrealism... -- A8, 22:50:22 09/14/01 Fri
..always on the verge, hovering on the event horizon, but never quite arriving at the destination. You should try it some time.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sounds like a new form of torture. ..... Pervert! I knew you were a fellow Pervert! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 22:58:51 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Have you seen the movie 'Go'? Tantra baby...Tantra! -- A8, 23:13:09 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Egad! How eminently FiresignTheater-esque! -- OnM, 19:45:09 09/15/01 Sat
Antelope Freeway, 1/2 mile... Antelope Freeway, 1/4 mile... Antelope Freeway, 1/8 mile... Antelope Freeway, 1/16 mile... Antelope Freeway, 1/32 mile... Antelope Freeway, 1/64 mile...

;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, the old Antelope Freeway paradox. -- A8, 00:40:39 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Shouldn't that be the Xeno Memorial Freeway? :) -- Humanitas, 11:26:50 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> Sol, *your* Fairy Godmother *would* wear black leather!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 19:13:27 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Wisewoman. Why you little dominatrix you. -- VampRiley, 19:28:48 09/14/01 Fri
Always thought there might be one in there. Bring the extra set of chains and whips and I'll bring the guacamole. ;-P



VR
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[> [> [> VR, you musta missed the Chat session--all secrets were revealed! -- Wisewoman, 19:32:44 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Believe me. I'm mightly pissed off I did. I'm punsihing and flogging myself. :-D -- VampRiley, 19:45:32 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> Don't punish yourself. That's our job! [bwah*cough*cough* ... No, Rufus, I ain't gonna do!]it. -- Solitude1056, 22:49:34 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Only if Wisewoman promises to be rough. -- VampRiley, 12:42:13 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> Don't forget the canopener. -- Solitude1056, 22:42:18 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Re: Wisewoman. Why you little dominatrix you. -- Shaglio, 06:30:05 09/17/01 Mon
What party would be complete without whips and dip!?!?!?
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[> [> [> [> Hey! I resemble that remark!! -- WW, 20:28:39 09/17/01 Mon
Who you callin' dip??

;o)
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[> [> Mmmm, gypsy garb, soul restorers... and a Whip! ;-) -- Humanitas, 19:32:59 09/14/01 Fri
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[> I can wear whatever I wish . -- Deeva, 16:38:03 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Or nothing at all. Sorry--I'm generally more gentlemanly... -- A8, 19:18:52 09/14/01 Fri
..Must be all this end of the world stuff lowering my inhibitions.;-)
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[> [> [> Whew! I thought you were gonna say it was the influence of me 'n' Sol! -- Wisewoman, 19:37:18 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> I didn't mention the braided leather waist chain (and I WAS thinking it)... -- A8, 19:46:42 09/14/01 Fri
..THAT was your influence. There! I've said it and I don't feel guilty one bit. I need help. No...wait a minute...I need a beer...Yeah, that's the ticket [scampers down hallway towards fridge, bouncing off the walls along the way and skidding to a sudden stop].
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[> [> [> [> [> Ooh, ooh....I forgot to mention matching leather choker, as well. Yep, I'm sick. -- A8, 19:48:41 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Not really what I had in mind, darling. Besides, after a while it would chafe a bit! -- Deeva, 22:01:04 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh well. Fantasy dispelled. Back to the corner to nurse my beer.@:-( -- A8, 22:07:44 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Hunh? I take no blame for A8. Credit, maybe, but no blame! -- Solitude1056, 23:00:02 09/14/01 Fri
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[> Ooh, party. Nice idea -- Wiccagrrl, 16:41:24 09/14/01 Fri
And so I'll come in a traditional witchy costume, complete with pointy black hat. Hey, it's a stereotype, but what can I say- I'm a sucker for pop culture witches ;) (No green paint or warts, though...)
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[> [> Ahh. I bet you'd look cute in green paint (wink) :-) -- VampRiley, 19:42:02 09/14/01 Fri
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[> I will wear a Calvin Klein CK-one t-shirt ;) -- cknight, 16:44:11 09/14/01 Fri
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Isabel, 17:31:17 09/14/01 Fri
I just got back from Victoria's Secret. I got a nice leather catsuit. I'm trying to go for the Emma Peel look. Meow. (Does JBone like redheads?) ;)
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[> [> I DO, I DO!!! -- cknight, 18:44:11 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Forget about Jbone. I love redheads! -- vampire hunter D, 12:10:17 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> thatz good to know ;) -- Liquidram, 21:38:48 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> Why, are you a redhead too? Cool! -- vampire hunter D, 14:26:42 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Shaglio, 06:33:17 09/17/01 Mon
Redheads are my fetish, dear :)
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[> Seven more of me! Think of the harmonic possibilities! Where's the party? I'm there! -- A8, 17:33:45 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Not so sure about having 7 more of you around! ;o) -- Deeva, 21:54:00 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Youch! 8 broken hearts in one evening! Slings and Arrows! ;-) -- A8, 22:16:10 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Broken-hearted already? Hmmm...they don't make 'em like they used to. *g* - - Deeva, 22:25:47 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> Or perhaps I should learn to play nicely or all my "toys" will end up broken? Nahhh! :oD -- Deeva, 22:28:48 09/14/01 Fri
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[> Is Marie gonna be leaving Donny behind? And where's the "flip" or the sequins? -- Solitude1056, 18:22:09 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Either that, or she'll be informing us all that we have to eat cake... -- Solitude1056, 18:25:22 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Not cake - any more of this, and it's Donny-kebab! -- Marie, 16:36:26 09/17/01 Mon
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[> I'll come dressed as Garbo... Eye vant tooo vee awone! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 18:24:02 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Sounds more to me like Sesame Street's The Count--I want to be awone... -- A8, 18:32:46 09/14/01 Fri
..atwo, athree....
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[> [> [> One troll! Two trolls! Three trolls! Three Unoriginal Trolls! Bwahahahahaha! ....(like that?) -- Solitude1056, 22:36:09 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> now it sounds more like Lawrence Welk! -- anom, 21:56:47 09/15/01 Sat
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[> Half black, half white, like those guys on Star Trek. Or maybe half Buffy, half Master. -- Dichotomy, 18:40:48 09/14/01 Fri
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[> A lot of hair dye, some glitter and hey, I'm there! -- Liquidram, 20:25:44 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Re: A lot of hair dye, some glitter and hey, I'm there! -- John Burwood, 01:21:11 09/15/01 Sat
Shouldn't we all wear masks to a 'Masque' ball/party? Okay is that the best pun I can come up with? Blame it on waking up with a headache at 5am!
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Drizzt, 20:32:17 09/14/01 Fri
I do not have chain mail +4 Have a red and white striped shirt, so I would come as Waldo and watch the party from a dark corner. Someone(accurately) called me Waldo when I was wearing that shirt.

Oh, I guess I would have a few drinks and check out KickboxingVampWillow(deeva), then go to a dark corner table...

Quite a party so far!
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[> [> Don't have too many, dear. I've never fancied drunks. *g* -- Deeva, 21:57:26 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Not a drunkard -- Drizzt, 22:56:05 09/14/01 Fri
I buy three or four six-packs of beer per year & only drink two alchoholic beverages if I am driving. Been slightly drunk once in my life; no hangover. I would just check you out a little with the hope of some flirting.

Mmmm...flirty VampWillow!
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- Javoher, 08:28:07 09/15/01 Sat
Oooo, thank you very much! I'll wear a bodysuit with strategically placed jewels...will that fit in?
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[> [> Don't wear the bodysuit. Just wear strategically placed jewels -- vampire hunter D, 12:12:42 09/15/01 Sat
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[> So when we finally meet... -- Solitude1056, 10:31:58 09/15/01 Sat
I'm gonna be looking for someone in a toga, another guy staring intently at a prickly pear while wearing tweed, several folks coated in a various colors of body paint and/or glitter, and a woman dressed in black leather carrying a pumpkin and a deck of tarot cards? Wow. That could be cool. I'm there!
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[> [> Hey! -- Cactus Watcher, 18:03:18 09/15/01 Sat
I'm just bringing the cactus. I be staring at all the girls like a good watcher. If the cactus wants to mingle, and get its own ride home, that's its business.
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[> [> [> LOL! -- Solitude1056, 19:11:09 09/15/01 Sat
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[> If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- Kerri, 13:24:29 09/15/01 Sat
Hey wouldn't it be funny if Ethan came and turned us all into our posting names?
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[> [> Re: If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- John Burwood, 14:08:50 09/15/01 Sat
But my posting name is my real name, so I would just turn into myself. Oops. Nightmare comes true. Better change my posting name quick. How does cool head waiter guy sound?
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[> [> [> Re: If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- Cactus Watcher, 17:57:08 09/15/01 Sat
Being changed into yourself is only a problem if, like Xander, you're a bad influence on yourself.
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[> [> [> What about me? 8 more? Blah, blah woof woof times 8. Somebody would kill me.... -- A8, 00:46:41 09/16/01 Sun
..all eight of me, before the first lampshade was worn.
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[> [> [> [> Nah, we'd just NOT let anybody use the whip on you. ;) -- LadyStarlight, 07:24:54 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> Re: If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- VampRiley, 14:10:09 09/15/01 Sat
I'd finally be ready to take out my just revenge on the vamp who hurt my ex. But I'd take a lesson from me ex. Drive to L.A. with a rocket launcher I got from one of my contacts from when I was Captain America, fire into the Hyperion Hotel with my sights targeted on Angel and watch as it goes up in smoke and fire and laugh richly as Cordy, Wesley, Gunn and Fred run out set on fire and stuff and watch them die and kill anyone who tried to help them. (he said while laughing maniacally)

Or I could kidnap them all and subject them to all of the torture techniques I learned while being with The Initiative and the US government. Those little scientists didn't get to have all the fun. he he!

VR
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[> [> Re: If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- Cleanthes, 15:33:25 09/15/01 Sat
Oh no, Ethan has done this to me!

Chilly, these chitonoi.
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[> [> [> Huh? -- VampRiley, 15:54:16 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> Cleanthes would be our laundered toga! But is that with or without starch? -- Solitude1056, 16:00:44 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> Translation -- Wisewoman, 17:16:41 09/15/01 Sat
Highlight and copy the Greek.

Paste it into a Word document.

Highlight and choose another font.

Presto: Oh no, Ethan Rayne did this to me!
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[> [> [> [> [> Thanks :-) -- VampRiley, 18:30:22 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Translation -- Cleanthes, 09:53:06 09/16/01 Sun
Thanks for giving the explanation, Wisewoman. I never know if I need to come back and explain again, but I think a thank you is in order.

Oh, and I don't actually know enough Greek to know for sure that chitonoi is the plural of chiton. No one corrected me, so I'm feeling smug, but, well, unsure.

I did wear theatrical Greek garb once during a high school performance of Antigone and so I can say that the I have the "chilly" part right.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> You know funny that you should say that. -- fresne, 14:23:58 09/17/01 Mon
I went to an event this weekend (The Ball that Launched a 1000 waltzes) to which I wore a red toga and my leather waist cinch. Skipped the black leather choker, black leather bracers, black boots, and scorpion flail (for when I'm Tisiphone the kindly Erinie), in favor of grapes as I was a Maenad. All I have to say about that is that Togas are for Summer. Brrrrr. And and be careful when being spun.

Hmmm...what to wear, what to wear. If I'm dressing up re: my name, I suppose I should come in Medieval French garb, but it's hard to dance in. Perhaps in a complete tangent my fire elemental costume, which strangely enough also involves my waist cinch and a great deal of flamey colored chiffon.

Although, if Ethan did show up, that might be bad for all concerned. Hmmm...
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[> [> [> Dude! How'd ya do that? -- vampire hunter D, 23:25:55 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> Re: Dude! How'd ya do that? -- Cleanthes, 10:03:17 09/16/01 Sun
When I saw that I'm supposed to come in a chiton, I thought I could check out information supplied to me by d'Herblay and Anom as to how to write in the Greek alphabet:

"type apokaluyiV for apokaluyiV.

The characters map a little funny--for example Q corresponds to theta. And you can't do characters with diacritics.

To have a character with a tonos or a dialytika, as in for example ?p????????, you need to use the Windows Glyph List 4 (I can't promise that it's supported by all systems and browsers) and type this: ?¹ok?luyiV. It's kind of a pain."

Anom added:

"Thing is, whoever set up the Symbol font based the order of the Greek letters on English alphabetical order. So zeta, which is #6 in the Greek alphabet, comes last, like the z whose sound it shares. There's no direct counterpart to c, but chi is spelled w/a c in English, so it goes 3rd. Psi (the ps in apocalypse) looks sorta like a y, so that's how it comes out in Roman fonts, & they put it before zeta. Capital nu looks just like H, so it's 8th. Etcetera. If you're typing in the Symbol font, you type these English letters on the keyboard to get those Greek ones on the screen. Weird."
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[> [> [> [> [> Masq, I think we need to add "How to type in Greek" to the FAQ. -- Humanitas, 11:30:56 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> Re: If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- vampire hunter D, 23:29:09 09/15/01 Sat
If Ethan turned us into our posting name characters, he (and VampRiley) would not survive very long. Anyone who doesn't belive that should see the movie I get my name from to see how powerful I would be.
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[> [> [> Is your name from Blade or a different movie? -- Drizzt, 01:33:46 09/16/01 Sun
You would have a bunch of pissed off Existential Scoobies if you killed Ethan BEFORE he turns them back to their normal selves!

I would like to be Drizzt for a day, but I would have a hard time fitting in human soceity as a black skinned elf with violet eyes...
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[> [> [> [> Go to the Meet the Posters Page and Read the entries -- vampire hunter D, 03:03:08 09/16/01 Sun
You might learn something.
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[> [> [> [> [> Well, actually D, poor Drizzt wouldn't be a lot further ahead... -- Wisewoman, 09:24:30 09/16/01 Sun
..as to your alter-ego, unless he went to this site:

http://www.altvampyres.net/vhd/

(Love the artwork, BTW)

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, actually D, poor Drizzt wouldn't be a lot further ahead... - - Drizzt, 10:12:26 09/16/01 Sun
Ah. I checked your "meet the posters" description, I love Howerd Stern also:) Never heard of those novels; whole new thing for me & Wisewoman was right, I would have still been in the dark about your alter-ego. I just said Blade cause Daywalker=Blade, and he was another kick ass vampire hunter. Blade was a boring character; no personality. I am sure Vampire Hunter D is much more interesting than Blade.

Drizzt is a kick-ass Drow elf...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What do you mean? -- vampire hunter D, 02:36:40 09/17/01 Mon
No personality? First, Vampire Hunter D (notice how I capitalize all the words then I refer to the anime) is a lot like Blade. They both don't show much feeling. But not being free with showing others your emothions does not equal no personality. It also doesn't mean having no feelings either. I found both to have interesting personalities and the fact that they hid their feeling only added to the mystique.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What do you mean? -- Drizzt, 16:57:40 09/17/01 Mon
Hmmm...I own Blade on tape. Bought it only because I loved the action scenes when I saw the movie, except killing a god with blood clotting serum was one of the most ridiculous things I remember in an action film.

Anyway I will rewatch with consideration of Blades' personality:)
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[> [> [> Re: If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- VampRiley, 09:31:14 09/16/01 Sun
Being both a man and a soulless vamp, I scoff at your threat. ha I don't care what movie you take your name from. That's the thing about life: There will always be someone smarter, faster and better than you. :-D

VR
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[> [> Re: If Ethan Rayne came to our party... -- Shaglio, 06:42:06 09/17/01 Mon
NOOOO!!!! I don't want horrid brown and green crooked teeth and an ultrahairy chest!
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[> Ladies, Gentlemen, and Those Who Remain Undefined... -- Humanitas, 14:29:39 09/15/01 Sat
It sounds to me like we have a theme for our Series Finale Party, some years hence.

We still gonna invite Joss?
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[> [> Yeah, but we'd hafta make him come dressed as... Buffy! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 14:39:48 09/15/01 Sat
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Orgy!! -- d'Herblay, 17:05:55 09/15/01 Sat
You people are sick! And perverted! And more than a little horny!

I love it!

My work here is done.
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[> [> No it's not... keep going, you're gunning for Third Evil! -- Solitude1056, 19:12:22 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> See, Humanitas, I told you you could be Third Evil! Quick, do something eeeevil! -- LadyStarlight, 19:26:48 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> We're not sick! -- OnM, 19:51:04 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> But "perverted" and "horny" you'll admit are undeniable -- d'Herblay, 20:34:10 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> I prefer sexually innovative and enthusiastic, myself -- Isabel, 16:53:53 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> Ah... "In matters of the heart, I am inventive..." - Iolaus, from HtLJ ;-) -- Solitude1056, 18:49:15 09/16/01 Sun
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Posting Board Costume Party!! -- anom, 21:47:50 09/15/01 Sat
Whoa, I'm away from the board for a coupla days & look at all I missed! First my computer was acting up much of Friday, & then it was Shabbes, so I'm just checking in now. Of course the threads I posted to Thursday are gone, so I can't see any replies. But I like the costume party idea!

Since "anom" is short for "anomalous," my costume would be...different. Something you wouldn't expect. & as long as this party remains virtual, I don't actually have to come up with what that might be!
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[> [> uh... you'd come as a mutant? ;-) -- Solitude1056, 21:57:47 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> Hmmmmm a new kind of evil.........:):):):) -- Rufus, 22:42:47 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> you mean anti-mutant prejudice? @>) -- anom, 20:56:16 09/19/01 Wed
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[> [> [> mutant cyclops smily? @>) !!!! -- anom, 08:16:33 09/16/01 Sun
But wait, that's what you would expect! Gotta remain anomalous...hey, maybe the medieval costume is strangely appropriate!
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[> chainmail & minstrelsy -- anom, 22:09:11 09/15/01 Sat
"And I have no idea where Drizzt will find mithril chain mail +4."

You could try the Medieval Festival at the Cloisters in NYC next Sunday (9/23). If it's like it's been other years, there'll be at least one armorer making actual chain mail. Don't know if it's got a D&D rating, though.

(Warning: blatant self-promotion below)

And you can see me! In a completely different kind of costume (unbelievable tie-in opportunity, huh?)! ...as a medieval minstrel, playing recorder & crumhorn, & singing too! Any ATP posters or lurkers in the NYC area should come up to Fort Tryon Park in Washington Heights & check it out (as they said in olden times).

On a more somber note, that's assuming it's still on after Tuesday. I haven't checked yet...not exactly the 1st thing that's been on my mind. I'll let you know in the next day or two if it's cancelled or not.
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[> [> sorry, I'll be at the MD Renfair... dressed as a photographer. -- Solitude1056, 17:00:36 09/16/01 Sun
Actually, at the request of Humanitas, I'll be torturing some of his friends and getting it on celluloid. If you don't hear from me again, it's cause they don't like his sense of humor. Hehehe.
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[> [> Re: chainmail & minstrelsy -- Isabel, 17:09:02 09/16/01 Sun
Oh my god! I played in a consort in college. I learned how to play recorders and crumhorns. (And some percussion.)

Finding people who play recorders is not hard. I even have a soprano and an alto. Oddly, I usually played Tenor and Bass in consort. But those are, like $200-$1000 a piece in the real world.

But Crumhorns! Attack of nostalgia. Sigh. I played Bass usually. But the ordering price of even a soprano crumhorn makes the recorder prices miniscule by comparison.

Do little kids still burst into giggles and tell you it sounds like you're stangling a goose? I miss it sometimes.

Do you play outside the NYC area? I live a distance away. E-mail me. Thanks :)
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[> [> [> Re: chainmail & minstrelsy -- anom, 18:41:35 09/16/01 Sun
Hey, Isabel! Yup, I was in my college's Collegium Musicum (instrumental only; oddly enough, I didn't think I could sing back then). That's where I learned to play crumhorn. We even played for Shakespeare's 400th birthday at the Folger Shakespeare Library.

"Oddly, I usually played Tenor and Bass in consort. But those are, like $200-$1000 a piece in the real world."

That's why I don't have a bass. I bought my tenor used, & years ago, or I couldn't have afforded it. As for the crumhorn, several family members pooled their $$ & bought it for me (are they great or what?) from a dealer in the Bronx (I'll give you details offlist). Don't know if it's used or what, & I'm not gonna look a gift crumhorn in the...the...what would you look a crumhorn in, anyway?

As for comments from kids & others, I haven't really played it in public yet. I was gonna debut it at the Festival. But bad news...I just found out today it's being postponed to the next Sunday (9/30) because of the WTC attack. Can't blame them, but I'll be out of town that weekend...arrgghh.

But I can still wear my minstrel costume to the party, right?
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[> [> [> Isabel, did you get my email? -- anom, 10:32:13 09/20/01 Thu
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[> Missing all the fun ... -- Helen, 01:40:50 09/17/01 Mon
Thankyou for inviting me - with all the trolls using real names I was getting concerned someone would think I was one. I'm really not - I tend to end up out of loops because of the time diff (I'm in England) plus I can't post at weekends.

Anyway, I've probably missed the party now, but that's probably just as well coz I would have had to find something to wear that meant coming as Helen - I could have had a toga too and carried a topless tower of Ileum I suppose!
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[> [> Hey, I'm a night owl.....I miss lots of stuff......:):):) -- Rufus, 02:39:31 09/17/01 Mon
You don't look like a troll to me....:):):) We will have to have a party that runs in shifts for us all nighters and those in different time zones. Or we could just take notes on what everyone else does and giggle....it seems some of them have started to go woof an awful lot.
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[> [> [> The end of the party -- Helen, 02:50:33 09/17/01 Mon
Or we can just perpetuate the party ad infinitum - I usually arrive at the stage when the band has stopped playing, there's a group of girls in the ladies crying about something, all the good booze has gone, and there's nothing left to eat except a few mouldy peanuts, and a bottle of Campari that has been open for about three years, and is starting to seperate. And the neighbours are threatening to call the police ...

What would you come as - will you go woof a lot, or does Rufus have deep currents of meaning I'm missing (its very likely!)?
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[> [> [> [> Re: The end of the party -- Helen, 04:19:58 09/17/01 Mon
Heartfelt apologies Rufus - I have just read your profile and realise that you are a cat.
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[> [> [> [> [> Yes, but I'm a cat with deep currents of feelings......:):):) -- Rufus, 05:18:04 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> Topless!? You'll fit right in! ;) -- Humanitas, 15:53:30 09/17/01 Mon
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[> Black leather -- Millan, 04:02:44 09/17/01 Mon
Thanks for the invitation!

Well, Millan is a RL nickname so that would mean I could simply go into my closet and see what I have that would fit the party.

Since quite a few here have indicated they have leather things in their closets, I guess I wouldn't be totally alone if I wore my black leather pants and high heels. (And something black and sheer as a top.)

I also have a pair of handcuffs and a riding crop. Would I blend in this crowd? :)

/Millan

"She couldn't've dressed up like Xena?" - Willow, Halloween
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[> [> You're going to be *very* popular at the party! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 08:00:45 09/17/01 Mon
Will you lend my your handcuffs?
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[> [> [> Maybe... -- Millan, 11:47:25 09/17/01 Mon
I might lend them out, it depends on who you plan on using them on and whether you'll share... ;P

/Millan

"Why couldn't Giles have shackles like any self-respecting bachelor?" - Xander, Living Conditions
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[> [> [> Hey, I've got handcuffs coming out of my bottom..:):):):) -- Rufus, 12:25:06 09/17/01 Mon
To sort of quote Anya. It's all business guys so they are very plain........plastic or metal????? Take your pick.
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[> [> [> [> Okay, that's a picture I'll never get out of my head. -- LadyStarlight, 12:43:21 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> To quote Xander, "did anyone else go to a scary visual place?" -- Solitude1056, 13:03:36 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> Yep. And I'm gonna have a hell of a time erasing it and I'm at work , to boot! -- Deeva, 09:32:40 09/19/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> Definitely metal...hearing them clink is part of the fun! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:20:35 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> You notice the only one that isn't scared by that image is Wisewoman.....;) -- Rufus, 14:03:32 09/17/01 Mon
Canadians are made of such strong stuff........:):):)
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[> [> [> [> [> Gotta go with metal too... -- VampRiley, 19:39:04 09/17/01 Mon
Let's weight the pros and the cons:

metal vs. plastic

-------------------------------

1) Sound - As Wisewoman put it, the clinking sound is part of the fun.

2) Feel - The feeling of cold metal on flesh while during (insert your own thoughts here ;-) ) is just so good.

3) Breakage - There is more of a likelyhood that the plastics ones could break whereas with the metal ones, you would need a lot more strength. Which leads to a lot of money being spent on more plastic handcuffs. It's a vicious cycle. So the only things that would break would be whatever the handcuffs would be connected to, wrapped around, whatever. My advice, steal 'em from a cop, security guard, family member, friend or if you want to do it the hard way, you could buy them.

4) Keys and locks - plastic keys and locks can get deformed and ruined much more easily than metal ones. Which brings us to See above.

5) Meltage - If your rolling around in front of a fire and changin' positions a lot, there is a chance that you could actually move into the fire and not realize it. It takes a lot more heat to melt metal than it does to melt plastic. Plastic also melts a lot quicker than metal. And I for one do not want plastic melted to my skin. It's a pain to remove, even at hospital.

6) Accessability to other keys - Of the people that I know, the ones with handcuffs have metal ones. So, there is a better chance of them having a key that would work in my lock than there would be if I had plastic handcuffs if my keys were lost sometime after the cuffs were locked and my extras could either not be reached or couldn't be found.

7) Sharp edges - More likelyhood that after awhile the edges of the plastic cuffs could get worn down to sharp edges. Whereas with metal ones, you really need to work at trying to shapen the edges.



Trust me people, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to this.

VR
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Oddly fascinated by this...oddly scared, too... -- LadyStarlight, 20:13:59 09/17/01 Mon
Didn't even know they made plastic handcuffs. Huh, you learn something new every day.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually.......... -- Rufus, 20:36:36 09/17/01 Mon
They are Zap straps or Flex cuffs, no key, one use only as you have to cut them off.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually.......... -- VampRiley, 08:07:35 09/18/01 Tue
Knew a girl once with both plastic and metal and it sort of happened to her, that's how I know. Saw that the plastic ones actually had a key which I thought was strange 'cause I heard that the plastic ones had to be cut off. But, she was a strange girl and figured not to ask. Don't know where she got them though. Maybe they were a child's toy or something like in one of those cops and robbers sets you can pick up for a few buck. Havn't looked recently, so don't know the exact price.

VR
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[> [> [> [> [> [> What, doesn't anybody use rope anymore? What ever happened to elegance and artistry? -- Evil Clone, 20:22:47 09/17/01 Mon
I tell ya, these kids today. No respect for the old ways!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Problems with rope... -- Millan, 23:25:52 09/17/01 Mon
With rope, you either have thin rope that chafe or thick rope that is clumsy when it comes to tying knots.

If we're talking rope-like materials the very best thing is a long scarf of a material that doesn't stretch. It's secure, it's comfortable and... I think I'll better shut up now...

/Millan

"We've got an extra set of chains." - Spike, The Harsh Light of Day
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> For rope, gotta go with nylon. -- VampRiley, 12:45:25 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nylon abrades too easily; cotton doesn't, but stretches. For real class... -- Solitude1056, 19:28:21 09/18/01 Tue
..use silk stockings. Preferably ones that were being worn only a short moment before...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Handcuffs? Too everyday. D-rings on leather clink, too, y'know. -- Solitude1056, 20:27:05 09/17/01 Mon
A good thick leather, lined with velvet 'n padding - or bunny fur if you don't mind changing it out every so often (gets squished down faster than anything else) - and some solid D-rings? There's a clink for you. And unlike handcuffs, which are either on a body part or hanging off a belt as fashion statement, some nifty leather cuffs can be a lovely fashion statement without requiring hog-tying postions. So to speak.

Not that I know *anything* about such matters. Heh. Yeah, right. Believe that, and I've got some land in Florida to sell you...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Slow down here, I'm taking notes..............:):):) -- Rufus, 20:32:33 09/17/01 Mon
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[> I think that I shall never see a poem lovely as a tree... ;) -- rowan, 07:02:01 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> Strange juxtaposition here, rowan...you appear to be the only sane one left! -- Wisewoman, 20:36:39 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> 'Sanity is not statistical' - George Orwell -- OnM, 20:54:35 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> What do you mean sane??????????? -- Rufus, 21:30:21 09/18/01 Tue
She's lost it......she mentioned a shirtless Xander....someone check her vitals......if she mentions a shirtless Snyder I will have to put her out of her misery....we can only hope she will make it til Oct.2 for a Spikey fix....:):):):)
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[> [> [> Sanity's over rated -- VampRiley, 19:05:40 09/19/01 Wed
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[> thanks, d'Herblay! -- anom, 21:11:52 09/18/01 Tue
I think we all needed a laugh, & this thread has given me several LOL moments. Thanks for starting it.
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[> [> just doing what I can -- d'Herblay, 21:16:21 09/18/01 Tue
Why does Buffy fight Vampires? -- Jean, 18:12:36 09/14/01 Fri
Why doesn't she just leave them alone and go the the mall instead.

Of course the answer is obvious, but some times the most obvious is overlooked. Sometimes the most obvious is the most profound.
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[> Re: Why does Buffy fight Vampires? -- Drizzt, 18:59:03 09/14/01 Fri
Vampires are for training new Slayers and keeping them in good fighting form between Big Bads;)
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[> [> Re: Why does Buffy fight Anything? -- Jean, 19:17:52 09/14/01 Fri
You missed my point

Just leave them alone.

She could go to the movies instead. Hang at the mail, play video games.
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[> [> [> Potential troll alert. -- Wisewoman, 19:24:41 09/14/01 Fri
Unknown poster.

Short, staccato sentences.

Obscure, yet somehow provocative, subject matter.

Give it up!
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[> [> [> [> It is weirdly mesmerizing, isn't it? -- mundusmundi, 19:56:31 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> Kind of like a Greek tragedy. We should only be Greeks. -- A8, 20:11:14 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe kinda like a Greek tragedy, but worse. No lube. -- Solitude1056, 22:43:51 09/14/01 Fri
(sorry, sorry, just could NOT resist!)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ...and no lube is always a very bad thing -- liquidram, 22:45:22 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: ...and no lube is always a very bad thing -- Drizzt, 22:59:32 09/14/01 Fri
Solitude & Liquidram

I really do not get the connection between Greek Tragedy & No Lube. Can you enlighten me?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> *polite cough* -- Solitude1056, 23:02:44 09/14/01 Fri
Uh... you old enough for this?

Alright. Homosexuality was an acceptable part of Greek society, since (bluntly) it was considered a "higher" form of love than the procreation-only form of sex with women. Can't recall how they felt about lesbianism - I think it didn't really occur to the men that such a thing would be possible, based on how they thought women "operated" physically - but whatever.

So, you mention ancient Greece, and jokes are going to come up like "Greece: where the men are men, and the boys are scared." ;-)

No offense to any current Greeks, natch. If you weren't aware, their culture's changed a bit in the past two thousand years.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Reminds me of an old college joke... -- A8, 23:10:59 09/14/01 Fri
My university was near an agricultural community, so the first joke you learned when you registered was : "Davis, where the men are men and the sheep are nervous." Which reminds me of another bad joke: What's the difference between Mick Jagger and a Scottish sheep herder. One says ,"Hey, you! get off of my cloud!" The other says, "Hey, McLeod! Get off of my ewe!" I apologize to our Scottish friends and am flagellating myself as I type.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> s'ok. Can't speak for anyone else, but this scots-brit-irish descendent was laughing! -- Solitude1056, 23:12:29 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: *polite cough* -- Drizzt, 23:13:18 09/14/01 Fri
I did know about the homosexuality thing. Just have not read much RE greek tragedies; you could say anything about them and I would not know if your serious or being silly.

I get the joke(blushes like only young men can) Oh BTW I am old enough...28, but completely straight!!!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd comment but I'm niiiiiiice.......... -- Rufus, 00:20:46 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oooh...when you talk like that, the hairs raise up on the back of my neck. -- A8, 10:55:01 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: *polite cough* -- anom, 21:16:26 09/15/01 Sat
"Can't recall how they felt about lesbianism - I think it didn't really occur to the men that such a thing would be possible, based on how they thought women "operated" physically - but whatever."

Well, Sappho is practically the prototype lesbian--in fact the word comes from the same island, Lesbos, that she did. So I'd say they knew it was at least a possibility!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> True, but it's the reverse... -- Solitude1056, 21:55:08 09/15/01 Sat
Of these days. Now, we've got "lesbian chic" and most hetero guys are chill about lesbians, if only because some of them secretly wish they could be in the middle. Not trying to start something, just observing. But anyway, from what I understand of the Greeks 'n sexuality, men's love was seen as purer, and women's as baser, hence two women together was marginally tolerated. Sappho was - for all intents & purposes and to all indications - a true anomaly, the token bisexual. (She did reportedly have male lovers, and allegedly wrote poems to lovers of both sexes.)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: True, but it's the reverse... -- anom, 22:18:17 09/15/01 Sat
"Sappho was - for all intents & purposes and to all indications - a true anomaly, the token bisexual."

Anomaly, you say? Hey--I could come as her! (Er, come in the sense of dress up, that is...what was that about a polite cough?)

"(She did reportedly have male lovers, and allegedly wrote poems to lovers of both sexes.)"

I thought so, but I didn't want to make it too complicated. Should've known better w/the TTMQ crowd!
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[> [> [> [> I don't find you wise -- Jean, 19:58:50 09/14/01 Fri
Just sheltered.

It is easy to be "principled" from a distance. Why do I think you would be singing a different tune if it was your friends or family in that rubble.

Go talk about how cute Spike is. And how is that Britney Spears?
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[> [> [> [> [> You're very rude. -- Helen, 03:02:46 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> Re: Potential troll alert. -- Drizzt, 20:01:41 09/14/01 Fri
Jean

I did not miss your point. I just made a joke, and it was not a very funny one.

Vampires are not for training Slayers; they are humans(at least human bodies) infected by a demon essance and Buffy fights them because they are a threat to all humans. Buffy goes to college, dresses in nice clothes, likes to hang out with her freinds, etc. because she does want to be normal and do regular stuff. A Slayer like Kendra probably would not "hang out at the mall" because Kendra had no life besides her Slayer duties. Buffy tries to do both; a balancing act.

Wisewoman Who is the "potential troll"?
Me or Jean?

I posted more on Buffy's desire to be normal on the thread on Buffy getting paid a week or two ago; my comments to Jean are only a partial recap.

Anyway Jean's post is a valid subject to me.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Potential troll alert. -- Drizzt, 20:05:07 09/14/01 Fri
Never mind about my question Wisewoman.

I think you are wise.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Drizzt! -- Wisewoman, 22:11:52 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks, Drizzt! -- Drizzt, 22:47:46 09/14/01 Fri
You are welcome.

I really made an ass of myself on a different thread.

Will probably be getting the dreaded silent treatment from some of the regulars. I do not want to be a troll. I did apologize on that other thread. It just did not seem right if people here disliked something I posted with my old name and had only a good impression of me with my new name; like me or not with all of my quirks and personality traits...not just my good qualities.

I am feeling like Spike right now; I have alienated some of my Scoobie Freinds here and need to have an evil goddess test my loyalty. Hmmm, that is not really a good analogy;(
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Drizzt, now quit this sniveling already, or you're gonna go to bed with no dinner. -- Liqui...ah....Herman, 22:56:37 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Drizzt, now quit this sniveling already, or you're gonna go to bed with no dinner. -- Drizzt, 23:02:42 09/14/01 Fri
Drizzt wipes his nose and stops sniveling; he wants dinner!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Evil? Someone called my name? Do you mind settling for the second evil... -- Solitude1056, 22:57:33 09/14/01 Fri
Oh, I get it. You're holding out for the First Evil!

*sniffle* Man, nobuddy takes me seriously. *sniffle* I'm just a second-rate evilness. Don't mind me, suffering over here. I'm just gonna move into a better-lit dark corner and just suffer alone, in silence... *sniffle* oh, don't mind me. Woah, apparently you couldn't see me there. Okay. I'll move over to this much better-lit dark corner. Am I evil yet? Not as evil as Masq? No? *sniffle*

I am angst.



;-D
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> don't worry Sol, I know how truly eveel you are. -- Liquidram, 23:03:57 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> "Angst"--Fabio's brooding misunderstood twin. -- A8, 23:04:18 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Evil? Someone called my name? Do you mind settling for the second evil... -- Drizzt, 23:06:50 09/14/01 Fri
LOL Solitude! You really got a chuckle with a few guffaws out of me:-)

I will settle for fourth evil after Masq, you, and wisewoman with her wip at work.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Stay out of the dark corners people! -- Cactus Watcher, 08:04:31 09/15/01 Sat
My prickly pear is missing. ;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No sweat Drizzt--Just grab a drink, relax and enjoy the party. -- A8, 23:01:42 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If I get drunk I might do the "Dance of joy". -- Drizzt, 23:20:14 09/14/01 Fri
But that would be such a silly dance that I would then do the dance of shame from embarrasment.

Hooka, hubba, ooh ooh!=Drizzt's song if he dose the dance of joy.
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[> [> [> [> Dumb question -- change, 05:52:49 09/15/01 Sat
What exactly is a troll? Up to now I assumed that a troll was somebody who just posted flames and insults. But Jean isn't doing that. So, what do you guys mean when you call someone a troll?

Do you consider me a troll?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: GOOD Question -- Wisewoman, 08:43:34 09/15/01 Sat
I'm not sure I can answer it, precisely. But we've heard from you before, change, as I recall, and I don't think you've ever done anything trollish.

It's not just a new poster that we don't recognize, or someone who only posts once in a while. The pattern lately seems to be someone with a regular-type name, i.e. Kirstin, Chris, Sean, Susan, Mary, Jean, etc. who starts a thread with a seemingly innocent question. When one of the regulars responds to that question, the troll becomes immediately confrontative, i.e. "You scare me." or "You are my enemy." Then the second troll (they usually work in teams) posts in support of the first one, i.e. "So-and-so is right. You people are evil!"

The regular poster then tries to engage in rational argument, but it's a one-way street. The responses from the trolls don't seem to address the points made in the post, just reiterate general hatefulness toward the poster.

And, as I mentioned before, they seem to have a distinctive style of communication, i.e. short, terse sentences that don't always make a lot of sense.

That's as near as I can explain it for this particular Board, although on others I've seen it's a much more straightforward sort of "flame war."

Hey, we just attract a higher class of troll!

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> This board has "high class trolls"? LOL -- Drizzt, 09:25:41 09/15/01 Sat
More likely it is people here know how to remain dignified. It takes two to "dance"(Spikes term for confrontation)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm telling ya, fight bots with bots! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 10:28:53 09/15/01 Sat
When one of the regulars responds to that question, the troll becomes immediately confrontative... Then the second troll...posts in support of the first one... [Responses] from the trolls don't seem to address the points made [by the regular poster], just reiterate general hatefulness...

I'm telling ya, they're bots. They just regugitate a series of preset phrases that are triggered by parsing the poster's statements, but not necessarily responding the way a real person would. So we gotta sling a bot back at 'em... I'm voting for Eliza! Eliza the Troll Slayer! Quick, someone write me a program, or can we do it in Fortran? ;-)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, our switch to party banter seemed to act as "Troll Repellent." -- A8, 11:02:34 09/15/01 Sat
We should can it and distribute it free to all. I would add, though, that it seems another major Troll characteristic is sense of humor deficit disorder (SOHDD). Wit and sarcasm seems to scare them off. So as long as we keep a well-stocked arsenal of whoopie cushions and cream pies and puns, we will be well defended. :-)

A8
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[> Re: Why does Buffy fight Vampires? -- Humanitas, 19:29:51 09/14/01 Fri
Buffy fights vampires because they are Evil, in the sense that they are a threat to human beings. They lurk among us in human disguse, and feed on the (presumably) innocent. Buffy is the defender of the innocent.

Like you said, obvious. And profound.
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[> [> Re: Why does Buffy fight Vampires? -- Jean, 19:54:42 09/14/01 Fri
Exactly.

Couldn't have said it better. She fights them because they are evil. Because she has the power to stop them from harming others.

She fights them because if she didn't, they would win. They would destroy civilization. Humanity wouldn't exist

That is what it is all about. It is as simple as that, and as profound.

Evil can't be reasoned with. It can't be appleased. It must be fought.
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[> [> [> Re: Why does Buffy fight Vampires? -- Dedalus, 20:47:43 09/14/01 Fri
Evil must be kicked in the butt, you say?

I profoundly disagree.

Buffy's actions have gone from bad to worse. In many ways, she is more a killer than the vamps she dusts. Look at what she does nowadays! She doesn't even wait for them to get out of the ground! She just rams her stake right in the dirt before the poor things can even surface. It saddens me every time to hear them wail in agony as she kills them.

How does she know they always want blood? Maybe ... well, they might be allergic to blood. Maybe they just want a ham sandwich. Does she ever think about that? Of course not. Just hunt and kill, hunt and kill. Maybe, when they are coming at her, they just want a hug. After all, clawing out of a grave can be a traumatic experience.

For those of you who are concerned with the negative depiction of vampires on Buffy, and are very much interested in contributing to the Citizens for the Ethical Treatment of Vampires, just contact me at 1-800-WE-DONT-BITE, or visit my website at www.stereotypeshurtmorethanwedo.com
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[> [> [> [> ROFLMAO. Thanks Ded, I've been in need of a good dose of biting sarcasm for some time now. -- A8, 21:01:59 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Hey Ded, I'sa smacking you on the shoulder ... good one buddeeee -- Liquidram, 21:20:37 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Kick ass & take no names! you rock, Ded! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 21:24:51 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Uhh, the C.E.T.V isn't related in any way to the C.L.I.T, is it? -- OnM, 21:54:12 09/14/01 Fri
(Where are Jay and Silent Bob when you really need 'em?)

Thanks be to the mighty Dedalus!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Why does Buffy fight Vampires? -- Drizzt, 23:29:56 09/14/01 Fri
To add to this discussion on ethical treatment of vampires, don't forget that websight for addopting virtual vampire pets...that need homes, love, and blood.

OT Anyone seen Gremlins? A funny image to me is the Mooglie(original cute furry creature) turned into a Vegan vampire that stalks and torments tomatoes, then sucks them dry! Oh boy, run from the cute vampire!

Can you see the Vegan-Mooglie-Vampire salivating hungrily while watching "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes"? Very funny image to me!
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[> [> [> [> [> Veggie Vamps love them blood oranges too! -- A8, 23:32:19 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> What else would a vegan-vampire drink? -- Drizzt, 23:43:14 09/14/01 Fri
V-8 tomatoe juice with celery slices for "texture", bloody marys of course(grin)
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Vampire Dogs? -- Dedalus, 14:35:21 09/15/01 Sat
A vampire pet!

WOW! Interesting tangent - could a vampire transform a dog into a vampire? If he sucked the dog's blood out, and then had the dog lick his own blood?

I would love to see Buffy fighting a vampire Lhasa Ahpso!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Alright, stay away from my cat............. -- Rufus, 14:38:12 09/15/01 Sat
I'd prefer that the only blood sucker I know to remain the Tax-man...:):):)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Vampire Dogs? -- vampire hunter D, 23:22:52 09/15/01 Sat
wasn't that an episode of Fovever Knight?
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[> [> [> [> [> Funny you should mention that... -- Humanitas, 14:38:22 09/15/01 Sat
There's a kids' book called Bunnicula that was one of my favorites. It involves a vampire rabbit that bites lettuce, carrots, and other vegies. Thanks for bringing back those happy memories!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Funny you should mention that... -- Drizzt, 16:14:27 09/15/01 Sat
Lets not forget the rabid albino man-eating rabbit from Monty Python!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> different kind of "veggie vamp" -- anom, 21:31:57 09/15/01 Sat
And once again I take the opportunity to recommend damon knight's (very) short story "Eripmav" to anyone who hasn't read it: Both vampire & victims are of the vegetable kingdom, & I can't say much more without spoiling the ending.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Bunnicula?...I could swear that's in the Kama Sutra somewhere. :- p -- A8, 00:56:10 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> Instead of Slaying Vampires, she needs to slay her hate, and seek understanding with them -- Eros, 10:34:51 09/15/01 Sat
Buffy has never really taken the time to really understand the plight of the vampires. To her it is always about the slay. About the kill.

Instead of slaying the vampires, she needs to seek reconciliation with the Vampires. Violence begets more violence. Someone needs to stem the tide.

What I call on Buffy to do is unilaterally decide to vow never to resort to the stake again. When she does slay them she lowers herself to their level. We must show that we are better than that. When the vampires learn that Buffy has vowed to never harm them again, they naturally will stop their violence against the citizens of Sunnydale.

She could organize a "stop the hate" rally. After dark of course to show sensitivity to our friends of the night. Peace in our time is possible for the citizens of Sunnydale only if instead of reacting with the stake, she reacts with love. She should love the vampires as much as she loves her family. For we all share this earth together. Vampires like all of us want peace. They are just victims of negative stereotypes that some in the Sunnydale community has in their fear of those who are different has placed upon them. Vampires are just very misunderstood.

She should meet violence with love. Hug a vampire. Let them know that you care. People call them monsters. If that is so, it is only as a result of how human society has treated them. We have only ourselves to blame. Until we take the time to seek to understand Vampires from their perspective, the violence, the killing will continue.
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[> [> [> [> [> AAAAAUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! Once again, ATLtS! -- Solitude1056, 11:48:27 09/15/01 Sat
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[> Folks, this is when we need...... ELIZA!! -- Solitude1056, 22:39:21 09/14/01 Fri
We need Eliza, not Buffy - we need an Eliza bot that will respond to trolls and keep them happy in some other alternate universe, away from us.



Any why do you think that Buffy does not need to kill vampires?

Perhaps this comes from your parents?

Please, tell me more about your thoughts on killing.

I see.

How does Buffy make you feel?

Very interesting.

Your session is over. That will be $70.
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[> [> LOL! Very interesting Heir Freud. And sometimes a stake is just a stake. -- A8, 22:43:29 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Except when it's a cigar. -- Solitude1056, 22:45:03 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Dr. what did Wisewoman mean when she said........ -- Rufus, 00:24:19 09/15/01 Sat
Insert PEPOC?????.....I saw that and suddenly was filled with dread, and the thought "for god's sake choose Sol!!!!"......I shall go back to being niiiice now as I have misplaced my leather skirt and have had to settle for a pair of leather gloves..:):):)
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[> [> [> Re: why does Buffy fight vampires? -- John Burwood, 02:26:42 09/15/01 Sat
Back to the original question - the more I think about it, the more significant it gets. The question is not why should 'someone' fight vampires, but why should 'Buffy' fight vampires? She does not have to - security forces are paid to do that - she is not. Faith chose not to - so could Buffy. She could go all isolationist & say the rest of the world is not her responsibility. She started thinking that in WttH. But when it came to the crunch she could not pass by on the other side when she saw Willow in danger. And that, in essence, is the answer. She can not pass by on the other side.
Classic Movie of the Week - September 14th 2001 ( Warning - Cranky Old Man at the Keyboard ) -- OnM, 20:47:41 09/14/01 Fri
*******

"You might be asking for something you can't handle" "I can handle it." "What if things go out of control?" "What does control have to do with it?" "I think he wants to find out if you have any limits." "Tell him I haven't found them yet"

*******

Rapture (rap'chur): 1. ecstatic joy or delight. 2. a state of extreme sexual ecstasy. 3. the feeling of being transported to another sphere of existence. 4. the experience of being spirited away to Heaven just before the Apocalypse.

*******

"Have you heard the word of God? It's the greatest gift of all time. You have to trust completely in God, he'll forgive all your sins."

"Who forgives God?"

*******

It would be the epitome of understatement to remark that this has been a difficult week for us here in the USA, and certainly it has to qualify as one of those times that 'try men's souls'. But just what does that mean? People use the phrase very commonly, and have done so for a rather long time, but if one is placing a soul on 'trial', then that sort of suggests that a verdict needs to be rendered, and doesn't the rendering of a verdict mean that someone is either innocent or guilty, and thus deserving of either justice or punishment?

The crazed fanatics who thought it a good idea to hijack a number of commercial airliners and turn them into flying bombs no doubt feel that the United States of America is guilty of some pretty serious misdeeds, and so is equally in need of having justice be done and punishment duly rendered. Having appointed themselves both judge and executioner, they no doubt spent their last seconds of Earthly existence praying to whatsoever god may guide them to lift them up to their just reward for the giving of their lives to serve the special needs of that deity.

Of course, it is eminently possible that the devoted ones were not thinking spiritually, but politically. Even though the FBI currently thinks that 'Muslim fundamentalists' and/or Mr. Bin Laden are at the helm of this ship of retribution, the last successful attempt at terrorism on our turf was by a home boy with a fuse lit by the fires of political righteousness, as I recall.

Also, and equally 'of course', is that there is often no difference between the two in the eyes of many observers, yours truly included. Politics and religion have been the strangest of bedfellows for quite a few long millenia by now, and sometimes they blend so seamlessly that it is quite difficult to tell where the needs of the church of the state and the state of the church diverge. It doesn't take a particularly observant historian to note that when the current king and his royal buddies want to expand their territory, one great way to bring it about was to have the men'o'god (and it's almost always *men*, ya notice? Being a man and all, I am often deeply shamed) o'the time mark the current inhabitants of the coveted property as being of an infidel nature and presto, whammo, *holy war*! ( This land was your land, this land's now my land... dah dee dah dee dah... )

Hummm.... I think I want to state (almost, kind of) right up front that I may say some things here in this week's column that some individuals may find disturbing and even possibly offensive.

In addition, I am going to recommend a movie that is potentially disturbing and possibly offensive just to add some salt to the corrosion. It is not my intent to be mean-spirited, but sometimes this can be called for, and this is a week that has left me both angry and contemplative and so I have a certain iddish need to vent, although I will try to have my superego couch it in some terms of philosophical/ethical/moral debate so as to at least attempt a measure of common civility.

Why bother? Well, because calm rationality and a measure of civility really is the only long term response to anger if we wish to rise above our animal nature and pretend to having some claim to a spiritual nature, at least as I define the term. Put another way, if the terrorists who killed those thousands of people in New York City and Washington D.C. can credit their god with inspiring them to political action, then I get to reply to them by holding *my* god, should I desire to have one, to a higher standard.

For if God is a politician, then I think I'm voting for Satan next election day, since like when Dawn confronted Ben after he had betrayed her and demanded that Glory reappear in his stead, I prefer my evil to be evil for it's own sake, not all wrapped up in a disguise of piety while they bang the nails into place and tell you it's 'all for your own good' or that 'we work in mysterious ways'. Sorry, that doesn't cut it anymore. Some of us down here want to know why we should worship a being who professes ultimate compassion but regularly gets upstaged in that department by we mere mortal meatsacks, sweat and stink and f**king/birthing away though we may surely be.

And that, dear friends, is what this week's film is all about. I mentioned in an earlier 'normal' post this week that 'art thus merges with the Realverse', and while I seriously debated whether or not to even do a column this week, I decided to go with it and just take my chances that somebody might not relate well to the subject matter. I did elect to flip the intended film for this week with the one planned for next, the last week before new episodes of A:tS start, followed of course by BtVS a week later. The theme that I intended (pre-terrorist-attack) was to be about death, which I felt was very appropriate given that we ended last season with the death, albeit a heroic one, of one show's lead and we are soon about to witness whatever the Jossgod plans in the way of engendering her glorious rebirth. This, of course, is *death as art*, which is usually *very* different than the rather nasty and *very permanent* real variety, but it has great value nonetheless because all of us will eventually face it and so we seek to find meaning in what very often appears to be meaningless.

Last week, we had *To Die For*, in which we obtained the opportunity to contrast the giving and selfless nature of our ironically named 'Slayer' with the actions of a self-aggrandizing and utimately nihilistic woman who sees other people as only a means to an end, that end being whatever makes her personally happy.

This week, I had thought to continue the exploration with a very abstract, sometimes abstruse journey (in stark but compelling black & white, no less) wherein one man starts out as an innocent soul and ends up-- well, confused. Then next week, we would go for the big one-- namely, who is this god being and just what does s/he want? But, alas, Tuesday September the 11th came, and I thus eventually decided that right now is a damn fine time to ask that big question, so here we are, and I'm a'gonna ask it.

A comment from someone on the IMDb page for this week's Classic Movie, Michael Tolkin's film *The Rapture*, suggests that you 'try to see this film with someone whose religious conviction is different from you own'. This might be an intriguing proposal, but I would recommend that you *not* do this with anyone other than someone with whom you have a very safe and stable personal relationship. This film doesn't pull any punches, it never backs down, and it has content that will offend and disturb both the devout believer and the rabid atheist alike.

*Please take me seriously when I say this*. This is a brilliant, thought-provoking work of very high art, but it means to rattle your cage, and it will.

The story opens with a long, very slow pan over a sea of cubicles in which reside what appear to be telephone operators giving out directory assistance. We eventually stop at one cubicle, and pull in for a close up on Sharon (no last name), played by Mimi Rogers. She is answering calls, repeating the same short, blunt questions over and over, a job obviously so staggeringly mindless and uninspiring that in another minute, when her shift ends, she hands her headset to a woman who then takes her place in the chair, in mid-call, without missing a beat.

The scene shifts to Sharon in the back seat of a convertible, driving down a city street with a man named Vic (Patrick Bauchau), who appears to be her lover, and we are soon made aware that Sharon counters the excruciating dullness of her work by joining him in looking for other couples to have sexual relations with. They find such a couple-- Randy and Diana (David Duchovny and Stephanie Menuez)-- and return to Vic's flat for several hours of apparently physically satisfying but emotionally decoupled coition. While it is buried beneath the surface at first, there is a certain spark that ignites on more than a purely physical basis between her and Randy, and he later comes to confide a number of his secrets to her in a moment of surprising vulnerability that sets the stage for their continuing relationship..

*The Rapture* is exceedingly sly in how it proceeds from this point, in that it appears that Sharon's growing discontent and increasingly oppressive sense of self-worthlessness brings her inevitably to embrace with great fervor the very thing she previously mocked and derided-- the sense that there is a God in the universe, and that He is real and palpable to those who truly wish to know Him. This personal epiphany also inevitably leads her to alienate many of her former friends, who see her newer, more spiritual nature as being a passing fancy, or even a more insidious drug that has simply replaced sex for her, as Randy insists during one confrontation with his recently 'saved' lover. She is not dissuaded, however, and eventually the sheer strength and confidence of her convictions lead Randy to embrace her new nature, as they marry and later give birth to a daughter. They appear to the rest of the secular world as happy, contented and secure, which is because they are.

At this stage of the story, we as viewers are still being led down the path that this film is a straightforward tale of redemption for a small number of enlightened individuals who have turned themselves on to a great Truth that the rest of us are in denial of. Veteran movie-goers will now expect one of two things to happen-- either it will be ultimately revealed that Sharon and Randy and their fellow believers are fools, and that their beliefs are childish superstition, or else they will be proven correct, and God will summon them to Heaven when he returns to judge all of humanity in the Apocalypse, and all will be right with the universe. Which outcome *you* happen to expect will of course depend on your own perspective, or if you are sufficiently cynical, your expectations of what social group the producers of the film are trying to market it to.

*You will be wrong*, and you will be stunned at the actual ending, and the emotionally devastating events that lead up to it, and you will probably-- and rightfully-- be angry and upset. (Unless of course you are Jerry Falwell, and think that terrorists bombed the people of New York and Washington because evil secular humanists allow gays and liberals and ACLU members to gradually destroy the moral fiber of America so that God has now lifted his veil of protection over our once great society, and so terrorists no longer fear us. In that case, you'd probably be OK with the whole thing, except for the sex and profanity, of course. That's still bad. But remember that it's not God's fault, he only lifted the veil of protection, he didn't actually send the terrorists. Just want to make that clear. Are we clear? OK, good.)

I won't reveal any more details, you need to rent this film and see for yourself, but do keep in mind my previous warnings, in that if you are already depressed from the events from earlier in the week, and you aren't like me and enjoy a good wallow in existential despair to make you appreciate that things could actually be worse-- much worse-- then go for a copy of Woody Allen's *Manhattan* instead, and glory in the vision of one who understands the ultimate fabulosity of one of our beloved country's greatest cities. I won't hold it against you, not even slightly.

Peace and good will to all of my fellow boarders,

E. Pluribus Unum,

OnM

*******

Technically not involving any spiritual dilemmas:

*The Rapture* is not available on DVD, according to the Internet Movie Database, although I thought fer sure I saw it in a video store somewhere. No matter, it is certainly available on VHS. The review copy was on laserdisc, and preserves the original aspect ratio of the theatrical presentation, which is 1.85:1. The film was released in 1991, and running time is 1 hour and 40 minutes. The cinematography, which is by Bojan Bazelli, is quite striking although it often seems to be deceptively simple at first glance. (It isn't.) The soundtrack music, which is by Thomas Newman, is used sparingly but very effectively, and one amazing and insightfully clever choice was to have only silence playing over the credits at the end of the film, which given what has just transpired right before them is incredibly and wonderfully perfect. The director, Michael Tolkin, also wrote the screenplay. If his name doesn't ring any bells, it's because he isn't very prolific, either as a writer or as a director, but when you're this good, prolific doesn't count for much.

Cast overview: (&btw, note that *no one has a last name*-- yeah, interesting, huh?):

Mimi Rogers .... Sharon
Darwyn Carson .... Maggie
Patrick Bauchau .... Vic
Marvin Elkins .... Bartender
David Duchovny .... Randy
Stephanie Menuez .... Diana
Sam Vlahos .... Wayne
Rustam Branaman .... Conrad
Scott Burkholder .... Evangelist
Vince Grant .... 2nd Evangelist
Carole Davis .... Angie
Patrick Dollaghan .... Executive
James LeGros .... Tommy
Dick Anthony Williams .... Henry
DeVaughn Nixon .... First Boy

*******

Answering 'The Question of the Week' requires that you have actually seen the film, which I usually don't make a requirement of, but this is the week for the big questions, so I'm making an exception this time:

Was Sharon's choice at the very, very end of the film the morally correct one?

If you post an answer, please MARK YOUR POST as **SPOILER**, since there is pretty much no way to discuss the ending without giving it away, unless you just want to say 'yes' or 'no', but I doubt anyone on this board could leave something this provocative with such a simple declaration.

See you next week, and even though I happen to personally be of a very unchurched nature, I confess to having always gotten a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside whenever Red Skelton would close out his weekly comedy show with a sincere and loving:

"Thank You, and may God Bless!"

( Oh, and Jerry? (~middle finger raised~) Nice to hear from you again, too.))

*******
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[> Your mention of Jerry Falwell also made me shudder. Excellent OnM! -- Liquidram, 21:16:29 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> Makes me want to sing Green Day's 'Minority' or XTC's 'Dear God' loud and proud. -- A8, 21:22:45 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> With the other 7 of you in harmony? Cool... -- OnM, 21:35:08 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Possibly in the form of a round like 'Row Row Your Boat' -- A8, 21:38:49 09/14/01 Fri
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[> I vote......dammit I can't remember the ending.........!#@$% -- Rufus, 01:06:00 09/15/01 Sat
Careful OnM your finger might get stuck that way...;)

God in whatever form he/she takes must just wonder why humans were given a mouth to stick their foot into. Faith is something that should be joyous, not something strangled out of someone under duress. I read what was said by a certain man of "God" and I wonder why he said what he did instead of trying to bring comfort to those who need it the most. People do evil things, we can never fully know why. But to use the pulpit to bring more fear and blame to the current situation is just a shame. It takes the responsiblility away from terrorist and blame on the victims. No one deserves what happened at the WTC, and to use the terrorist attack to shame the population into conformity is cruel. Religion should bring people together in love, not seperate them into factions that are fearful of each other.

Sorry OnM I can't remember much about "The Rapture" cause I'm just a little pissed about what people say and do in God's name.
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[> [> Amen. -- OnM, 05:55:25 09/15/01 Sat
*** It takes the responsiblility away from the terrorists and places blame on the victims. No one deserves what happened at the WTC, and to use the terrorist attack to shame the population into conformity is cruel. Religion should bring people together in love, not seperate them into factions that are fearful of each other. ***

Which is exactly what the ending is about, but that's just my opin, others will disagree. (Now's your chance to see the film again, Rufus!)
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[> [> And you may recall... -- A8, 10:53:39 09/15/01 Sat
..Falwell was the one who said that AIDS was "God's" punishment for immoral behavior (wow, all those poor immoral AIDS suffering infants--who knows what the heck they could have to desreve that), but was curiously silent when his beloved Reagan was diagnosed with Azheimer's and when Lee Atwater (Bush Sr.'s ultra-conservative campaign strategist, who used the image of Willie Horton to stir up racial prejudices) died of a brain tumor. Hmmm...Curious afflictions to befall two people who used their brains and personalities to hurt so many people.

A8
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[> Re: disturbing, and aptly chosen film -- mundusmundi, 12:28:16 09/16/01 Sun
In a spirit of curiousity -- John Burwood, 01:58:14 09/15/01 Sat
Looking down the meet the posters site I see that a number of posters did not become Buffy addicts until later seasons, & I gather that some of the North Americans have either never seen some early seasons or only seen them some years ago - but are now about to see them on the cable re-runs. As a UK resident who has literally seen all these early episodes dozens of times I would be fascinated to get reactions of Buffy fans seeing early episodes for the first time. A girl at work who got addicted mid-season 2 once remarked how astonishingly young SMG looked in S1 when finally seeing the video. It might be an interesting comparison to everyone's reactions to S6 - IMHO. Anyone else interested?
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[> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- OnM, 05:49:06 09/15/01 Sat
I agree, I tend to think that many fans who have rarely seen any of the early episodes will be surprised to see the differences in the looks and behavior of the cast. Sarah especially looks very young compared to how she portrays Buffy currently.

I didn't start taping regularly until S3, and religiously until S4 &5, so my collection of 1 & 2 is pretty sporadic and not too well organized, and the lack of DVD's to date in the US market hasn't helped. I did buy a few of the tapes, but I don't really want a tape collection-- once you get a DVD player tape just doesn't hack it unless there is simply no other choice.

I am looking forward to seeing the first seasons again, although it concerns me as it has some others that the shows will be edited shorter to allow for more commercial time.

Ah, well. You go with the flow.
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[> [> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- Drizzt, 09:38:06 09/15/01 Sat
One of the only episodes I have from before season three is the halloween episode.

Oh wow cordelia looks young and really immature compared to how she is on the Angel show now. That was the episode she tried to flirt with Angel, then found out he is a vampire. Angel looked like a college guy sneeking into a highschool and pretending to be seventeen...

Buffy was the helpless damsel in distress in that episode; she should appreciate her Slayer abilities more from having that experience. It really was a highschool type show then, now the Buffy show explores more complex adult matter.
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[> [> [> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- Dedalus, 14:54:18 09/15/01 Sat
I've been taping since Welcome to the Hellmouth!

21 Tapes, Baby!

(though Reptile Boy and Revelations are out of order)
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[> [> [> [> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- Drizzt, 19:05:29 09/15/01 Sat
There is some jealosy here... I liked the movie, but I did not want to watch a show that was as corny as that. Did not watch until mid season three when there was just nothing good on so out of curiosity I watched an episode of Buffy. Ah you have "got it" IE understood and appreciated the show for longer than me; that is why I am jealous. Will definately be recording the FX broadcast, even have two VCRs!
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- Dedalus, 09:44:41 09/16/01 Sun
Listen, I read one article, ONE, that was given to Joss Whedon before the show aired. And from that, I ascertained that it was going to be awesome. I had no idea how awesome, but there it is.

I still have the original captions of the old time Slayers and everything.
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[> [> [> [> You're a cruel dude Ded. I have to read the transcripts and wait for the DVDs. Crumbs I tell ya.:-( -- A8, 01:03:50 09/16/01 Sun
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[> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- A8, 10:46:40 09/15/01 Sat
I've been watching from almost the beginning, but didn't become so devoted as to tape and rewatch the taped episodes and re-runs until season 4. I think I was such a DS9 fan at the time that I only had enough energy to concentrate on that series, so when it ended, BtVS filled the void.

I think one of the great things about BtVS from Season 1, is that the Scoobies really did look like teenagers (particularly SMG and AH) in the beginning and have matured in a realistic way over the seasons.

I just bought the DVD of BtVS the movie, and, well, all I can say is it's like night and day. None of the characters (perhaps with the exception of Natasha Gregson Wagner, who really was a teen at the time) looked like they were 16. At best,they looked like a group of 30 something divorcees who would have been more comfortable hanging out in some cocktail lounge smoking and having a martini rather than goofing off in a school gym. They don't sell their lines very well and don't seem convinced that they are teenagers. That's probably why it failed as a teen movie (which is how it was marketed at the time). Joss got it right the second time around, because he apparently had some control over casting and, as a producer and director, unfettered control over his vision. It would have been interesting if SMG had been cast as Cordelia (the role for which she auditioned) and Julie Benz had been cast as Buffy (which is the role that SMG beat her out of). I know we would have been sorely disappointed.

A8
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[> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- Rufus, 13:52:11 09/15/01 Sat
I took my step-son to the movie BVS, then, when the series started watched from the first episode. Also, SMG looks very young in season one because she is very young......she is only 24yrs old......so to me she still looks very young.
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[> Spent the summer watching Seasons 1 & 2 -- Dichotomy, 17:05:03 09/15/01 Sat
I became enamored with BtVS in season 4 and recently managed to get my hands on Seasons 1, 2 and 3 (just watched "Anne" today). Having just finshed watching Season 5, then starting with Season 1 this summer, I was struck by how very much younger SMG looked. She had actual "babyfat" (for lack of a better word, because she never looks heavy) on her cheeks! She was curvier and the skirts were waaaaay short! (Who mandated that? I tend to think it wasn't Joss' idea, but maybe a network attempt to draw in viewers--as if it didn't stand on its excellent writing and fine group of actors!)

Cordelia was much preppier than when I first saw her on "Angel" (lots of cardigans and little, very little, tennis-style outfits worn with really high heels). And, of course, she was very shallow early on.

It was also very odd seeing the unrequited love triangle dynamics of Willow in love with Xander in love with Buffy, but it also gives me an appreciation for their closeness now.

What also stood out was how much younger most of the cast sounded, even Angel, who presumably had hundreds of years for his voice to change before arriving in Sunnydale.

Anyway, those are just a few quick thoughts on apparent surface differences, since I now must provide sustenance to my small offspring. I may have more in depth observations on this later.
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[> [> Interested in your opinion of 'Anne' -- OnM, 19:30:52 09/15/01 Sat
I really love this ep, and thought it was an absolutely superb season opener, but many other Buffyphiles seem to think it a weak ep, which baffles me.

Since you've just seen it, I'd be interested in your take, if you care to venture an opin.

Thanks!
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[> [> [> Re: Interested in your opinion of 'Anne' -- John Burwood, 00:14:23 09/16/01 Sun
I second your interest, OnM, and your opinion of Anne. When I first watched Anne I videod it and replayed it over and over again for the next week to bathe in the emotional power - I actually got more emotional over Anne that I did over Becoming part 2.
Then I get so emotional over Dead Man's Party that I still find it hard to watch. But i guess that might have something to do with personal issues of my own. But isn't part of magic of Buffy its ability to appeal to & provide metaphors for, the real traumas of life.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Interested in your opinion of 'Anne' -- Nina, 09:21:46 09/16/01 Sun
I just saw Anne for the first time two and a half weeks ago. Loved it very much. Okay I was super spoiled as I had read the script and transcript a lot of times, but actually seeing the episode isn't the same. In it's own way Anne gives you the chills. It's different from "Becoming 2", but I still can't imagine how they could have pulled a better sequel. I personally prefer Dead's man party to Anne. But it's because I find it touches some personal vibes. Buffy is feeling so abandonned and out of place that it's overwhelming.

I find that many people who did watch the whole series in a row are often disappointed with the season opener of each new season. I don't know what they expect, but each one of these episodes opener is so strong emotionaly. They all seem perfect to me. Maybe people are expecting a lot of action, but season openers are there to show us the emotional state of the characters. They are there to establish the season theme. "The Freshman" and "Buffy vs Dracula" were not liked a lot and yet they are some of my favorite episodes.

Maybe that would be an interesting question to tackle: what do people expect out of a season opener episode?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm with you -- Dedalus, 10:00:35 09/16/01 Sun
I've always loved season openers. A lot of people were disappointed in Anne, but I think that was just Becoming fallout. I think it really works well when seen in context with Dead Man's Party.

And I loved Buffy vs. Dracula. All the critics seemed to have too, but not the fans.

Am I alone in thinking the Freshman was likewise exceptional? It was like rewriting the show from the ground up, and I think it did it very well. All of season four had major transition points to overcome, and I think TF was a great addition.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> About season openers... -- Nina, 10:51:32 09/16/01 Sun
Personally I really loved "The Freshman". This is the kind of episode that you really have to see to get it. On paper it didn't appeal that much to me. But on screen I really got how Buffy was lost in all this. How her little world was suddenly so big. How overwhelmed she was. And that's really it. Season openers always deal with how Buffy is overwhelmed with her life. Be it after she killed the Master or killed Angel or enter university or looked inside herself and found possible darkness.

I was wondering how much fanfiction is responsible for pushing fans to dislike season openers. Just look at the amazing mountain of Post-Gift fics that have populated the net this summer. So many folks out there have given their two cents. Usually those fics are based on a specific ship ( a lot of S/B at the moment). Buffy comes back and at the end of the fic she either kisses Spike or sleeps with him. Not gonna happen soon in the series if you ask me! Anyway... each summer there are a lot of fics that are based on reuniting Bufffy with the guy she should be with. And the season opener is never about that. So maybe that's why people get frustrated? They've been reading these kind of fics all summer and they are stuck with an emotional episode where Buffy is lost... not what they were expecting!

Maybe it'd be fun to hear from folks who didn't like "Anne", "The Freshman" and "Buffy vs Dracula". What were you expecting?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: About season openers... -- Drizzt, 11:11:02 09/16/01 Sun
Happy stories with sunshine and songs are nice, but unfortunately boring.

Joss gives us what we need, not what we want. Joss gives us guttwrentching pain, and the pain is there because we care about the characters on the show and are upset when they get hurt.

With you on loving the season openers! The Freshman was a major change, and a good intro to the theme of season four, wich was about the scoobies growing apart and being away from the safety of home. Big Bad college is scary for every generation of high-schoolers that become college freshmen.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: About season openers... -- A8, 12:36:20 09/16/01 Sun
I thought 'Anne' was one of the better episodes, BVD gets better over time, and TF was great. I especially liked the Buffy-Xander interaction in TF and the villain who was kind of Buffy-like in her vampness (all glib and punny).
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: About season openers... -- Drizzt, 14:12:59 09/16/01 Sun
One other thing about The Freshman that was cool was it was the next episode after Graduation Day. In Graduation Day Buffy & the whole crew fought a real full powered Demon, in The Freshman Joss showed us that vampires are still a menace even after she fought and defeated a real demon. Kind of similar to how Buffy was allmost killed by a regular vampire in FFL several episodes after she had become UberBuffy to kill Adam.

The above was another counter arguement to my joke that "Vampires are for training new Slayers and keeping them in good fighting form between Big Bads"
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> With you on all but "Buffy versus Dracula" -- Earl Allison, 09:31:53 09/17/01 Mon
Loved all the openers you mentioned except for the latter .. not so much because I was expecting anything, but because I really didn't like the Dracula we were presented.

I was left feeling like, "that's ALL?" after seeing him. Visually, he wasn't very impressive (I've preferred the Marvel comics presentation with the mustache and goatee or even the Bela Lugosi version, Buffy's Dracula looked a bit -- effette, IMHO).

More, he didn't really provide us with anything that another character couldn't have done with som research, or an interesting magical artifact or vision.

Other than that, a good ep, but not (again, IMHO) on a level with "Anne" or "The Freshman."

Take it and run.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The word I was looking for was "exposition." -- Earl Allison, 09:33:13 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:I didn't have many preconceptions about Drac, so maybe that's why I liked it -- Dedalus, 14:36:53 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With you on all but "Buffy versus Dracula" -- Drizzt, 16:49:16 09/17/01 Mon
Dracula was created by the monks for one reason; to get a sample of Buffys blood before they created Dawn. Any other things he did were detail stuff. Went into more detail on a thread about how Buffy might be resurected.

Note: this is only a theory that has been posted a few times by me, not fact.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: About season openers... -- Masquerade, 11:20:37 09/17/01 Mon
The theory at the Bronze always was that the season ending episodes were a hard act to follow and people's expectations were set for the quality of a "Becoming" or "Graduation" or "The Gift", the quality and a continuation of where everyone left off.

Joss, on the other hand, is setting the stage for what is to come, and it is jarring. Most people are regularly disappointed by season openers because they are pretty down-to-earth episodes compared the ep "immediately preceding" them, that blockbuster ep four months ago.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: About season openers... FYI -- OnM, 21:07:41 09/17/01 Mon
Took a quick vist to The Council of Watchers site, and checked their voter database for this info:

Rankings from best (1st) to poorest (100th), for all 100 eps of Buffy, the S3, S4, & S5 season openers were voted the following:

*Anne* - 75th

*The Freshman* - 80th

*B vs D* - 66th

In all cases, I would have placed these much higher. *Anne* is in my top 10, the other two would be in my top 25ish, probably.

Interesting.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> The Freshman -- Helen, 02:07:26 09/17/01 Mon
I'm with you on the Freshman. Having only recently finished university when I first saw it, I could put myself exactly in Buffy's shoes - the disorientation of first day at college, her perceptions of her friends being undermined (Willow so confident!) ... it was all fab. I just wish we could have had more Sunday and her fang gang, such a clever idea. The students who drop out in their first few weeks, leaving notes on the bed and sckedadling without saying bye didn't really leave - they got eaten!! Work of genius.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Freshman -- Marie, 07:08:37 09/17/01 Mon
First of all - I loved 'Anne'! Gosh, the power and emotion of those dreams of Angel! And the faces of both Joyce and Buffy when Joyce opens the door to see her daughter standing there - great stuff.

As to 'The Freshman', taken as a whole, I enjoyed this episode, but there was one bit I LOATHED!! And that was the part where that HORRIBLE lecturer more or less forced Buffy out of his class. I work in a University, and I don't know whether this an American thing or not (no offence, I honestly don't know!), but if a student had come to me and told me they'd been treated like that in one of our classes, I would have advised she report the lecturer immediately. Why on earth would he expect anyone to volunteer anything in his classes if he shows them in the introductory lecture that this is how they'll be treated if they open their mouths and say something he doesn't like?!! Grrrr!!

Apart from that, there's the little fact that the more bums on seats, these days, the more money for the University, so this guy wasn't just a bully, he was a stupid one!

OK, sorry, rant over! Would be interested to hear your US views on this, though.

Marie
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> In my experience... -- A8, 13:03:59 09/17/01 Mon
..I never heard of anyone at my university being mistreated at the undergraduate level. Ridicule and humilation are not uncommon in law school, though. I think some law professors fancy themselves as mental boot camp drill sergeants who need to break students down in order to re-mold them into "thinking like a lawyer." The professors who employed that method of teaching, as a general rule, had very little real knowledge to impart to us IMO, were laughed at behind their backs (and by some of the bolder students to their face), and received their come uppance when we skewered them in parody in our annual "Law Revue" student variety show.
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[> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- Nina, 19:22:22 09/15/01 Sat
I am one of the few that really came in late to the series on this board. I was mourning my beloved "Cupid" series that had been cancelled two years ago and a fan told me to watch Buffy. I was very skeptic. Vampires and me? No way it would work. But I gave it a try anyway. I went to the local Blockbuster and rented the 3 tapes available for season one. Got hooked immediately. Then the next thing I saw was season 5 (starting at the begining of January). The shock was very big, let me tell you that! ;) (Buffy was more mature in season 5 and had finally a normal boyfriend, she was skinnier and more self-assured. But what really impressed me is that I didn't have to watch the whole thing in a row to fall in love with the series.

Then I've bought the tapes available for season two and later during Spring time I've seen all of season 1 and 2 in French (so horrible I don't think it counts!) This summer I finally got season 4 on tapes and just a few weeks ago I got season three.

So unlike people who have seen the series from the start I have had a weird first contact with the whole series. I have seen everything, but not in order. It's like going aboard a time machine and peek at different periods of time in an individual's life. Going back and going forth. Looking at archives or diaries. What was it like when they were 16 or 17 or 18?

Those characters are so real and well written that even though I've jumped from season 1 to 5 in a few days I wasn't lost at all. The big lines hadn't changed. Whether they were teenagers or young adults they were the same persons. And I felt the evolution.

I have a friend who just got bitten by the Buffy bug and the first episode I sent him was "The replacement". You recognize a good show when any episode can be a stepping stone to become a series junkie. I would never have recommended "The replacement" as a first episode, but yet it worked. I guess he'll have a very interesting story to tell one day as he is seeing scattered episodes that are not linked together (even worse than me!)

I don't think I make much sense tonight, but hope it answered your question. :)
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[> [> Could you clarify something -- vampire hunter D, 02:59:19 09/16/01 Sun
You said "[Buffy]had finally a normal boyfriend, she was skinnier and more self- assured." Now, I get having a normal boyfriend and being more self assured being good things. But are you trying to say that being skinny is good? For god's sake, she was thin to begin with. And I agree that she seemed even thinner this year. But that's not necessarily good.

Girls, it's time someone told you this: there is such a thing as too thin. Anorexia is a turn off. Everybody got that?

Who the hell started this belief that anorexia is sexy? It probably wasn't a guy, but if it was, I'm gonna find him and give him a real hard kick in the balls! But I'm guessing that it was probably some girl, so I'll have to settle for smacking some sense into her.
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[> [> [> Re: Could you clarify something -- Nina, 09:09:50 09/16/01 Sun
I told you I was tired last night (shouldn't have posted as my thoughts weren't clear enough :).

To reassure you I certainely didn't meant that skinnier was good. I was just simply citing the changes. Yes she had a new boyfriend and she was skinnier... but otherwise she was the same person. Try to watch any other series and jump from season 1 to 5 in an instant, there are lots of chances that the characters won't have had a realistic development. It's rare to find this sense of evolution elsewhere.

Not that I consider being skinnier an evolution! (grrr... so hard to make sense this morning too...) I have always admire women from renaissance paintings. Lots of skin (and fat...without being too fat). And I surely miss the Buffy from earlier season regarding this. But at this point this is between SMG and herself.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Could you clarify something -- Drizzt, 16:41:09 09/16/01 Sun
I agree SMG did look better with that extra ten pounds back in season one...but she is a workaholic and has an ectomorph body type, she is just not going to gain weight unless she stops being so busy.

Freddie Prinze Jr. loves to cook and loves his fiance; he will fatten her up eventually;)
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[> Re: In a spirit of curiousity -- Humanitas, 11:45:36 09/16/01 Sun
I saw one or two ep's from S3, and then started watching regularly in S4. I've since watched the available ep's on tape from S1. The FX reruns can't come soon enough, as far as I'm concerned. I've read the transcripts and/or shooting scripts for all of the older shows, but it just isn't the same.

On the subject of Good Season Openers, I think when the new season comes around, our last memory of the show was the climactic finale of the previous season, so we're looking for more High Drama. But, since the summer has more-or-less passed in Real Time, the characters have had a chance to recover a little from Becoming, or Graduation Day, or The Gift. That's part of the lesson of the show, too: Life Goes On.
"Buffy could never kill a human" -- briseis, 14:38:25 09/15/01 Sat
I know this is old, but I don't remember reading what I have to say about it right after the gift, even though there was a discussion about Giles killing Ben. The Knights of Byzantium were human. Buffy killed alot of them. So that line rang pretty false for me.-on the other hand, it didn't ring false that Giles would know Buffy well enough to know she wouldn't kill Ben if he emerged, and that he Giles had better be watching to finish it off.
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[> Re: "Buffy could never kill a human" -- Dedalus, 14:52:07 09/15/01 Sat
I'm still not buying the notion that Buffy killed a lot of knights. Where? When? How? She let the ones that attacked here in Checkpoint go. As for Spiral, she kicked a few of them off a moving van, but that didn't kill them. She buried an axe in one guy's chest from a distance, but he was wearing chainmail.

Then again, I'm in the minority on this.
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[> [> Re: "Buffy could never kill a human" -- Drizzt, 16:27:13 09/15/01 Sat
Big difference between defence of freinds & cold blooded murder like Faith did. Buffy has killed some of the KoB, but she did not murder them.

OT; Frank Parker from the show 7-Days is another hero that has prevented armagedon several times. Except for a couple of episodes he allways counters terorists & natural disasters. He has killed terrorists, however I think he has the same moral value of human life as Buffy.

Not too OT becuase that show is on UPN and you will be seeing advertisements for 7-Days when you watch Buffy:-)
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[> [> [> Re: "Buffy could never kill a human" -- Liam, 06:10:11 09/17/01 Mon
I agree with you, Drizzt. Buffy's killing the Knights of Byzantium can be explained by the desire to stop them from killing Dawn. As regards how many she killed, I recall that when she went out to talk to the Knights about allowing a doctor to see Giles, their second-in-command mentioned something about ten of his people being dead.
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[> [> [> [> Re: "Buffy could never kill a human" -- Hauptman, 11:54:34 09/17/01 Mon
Liam, I just watched the episode where Buff was fighting the Knights on the roof of the RV last night (I needed a buffy fix) and the Knight did say that ten of his men were dead. I have a theory about that. He did not say directly that Buffy killed the ten he mentioned. I think that it is possible that the knights, having a warrior/spritual mentality, might have killed the wounded rather than be slowed by them while they were on the "Keys" trail. The acting leader had himself killed the poor fellow who had been brain-ravaged by Glory saying "she has your mind but she will not taste your heart". Of course they had recovered him from the hospital earlier, which seemed to be more caring, but had they not, they would not have come so close to the key (he told the general that the key was in human form).

So, while Buffy did wound some of the knights--surely the guy with the axe in his chest counts as wounded--I don't think she actually killed any of them. Heck, some of them might have just fallen off thier horses and then were "released" by the knights. Maybe that is there code. What do you think?

Oh, and they clearly didn't have any medics among them or they would not necessarily have had to send for Ben.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: So glad someone else is with me on this :-) -- Dedalus, 14:39:56 09/17/01 Mon
A New Article - Non-Buffy -- Dedalus, 14:57:42 09/15/01 Sat
Just for kicks, I thought I would direct those of you who are interested over to Space.com to read one of my satirical TPM articles. You know, now that people seem to be enjoying my essays here, and also my post on the ethical treatment of vampires. I got the hug line from this thing. Which technically means I guess I'm plagarizing myself.

www.space.com/sciencefiction/movies/incorrect_menace_000825.html
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[> LOL! "Laughing Sage," indeed! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 15:44:31 09/15/01 Sat
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[> [> Re: LOL! "Laughing Sage," indeed! ;o) -- Dedalus, 09:40:31 09/16/01 Sun
Thanks. That was a bit of embellishment on the part of the editor.

So how did this post get all the way down here already? I swear I still can't comprehend how this board works sometimes.
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[> [> [> Hey, it had disappeared completely a couple of hours ago. At least it's back... -- Wisewoman, 11:22:41 09/16/01 Sun
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[> don't you care about... @>) -- anom, 10:30:25 09/16/01 Sun
Think you're so PC, huh, Ded? Well, I think you missed a couple of points, & I'm very upset about it! @>{

First, didn't you notice all the Jedi (the "humans," anyway) are male? Where are the females? Don't they have an equal opportunity to become Jedi knights? This raises some serious questions about gender equality among the Jedi and perhaps in their surrounding society in general, which Lucas fails to address. (The alien Jedi may be more enlightened with regard to gender, but because Lucas didn't think it was worth taking the time to show us enough of each of their cultures to even identify their different genders, we can't tell, can we?)

"Not everyone can be as sensitive as I am...."

How inconsiderate of the feelings of the differently sensitive! Dedalus, an apology is in order. And then we can discuss reparations.

anom pigmentally challenged person of gender
---------------------- notes: I put "human" in quotes because it's a whole other galaxy, & the characters that look human aren't really related to us, they're just the ones we're supposed to identify with "pigmentally..." is from a button...wish I could take credit for it, but I can't
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[> since we're sharing.... -- mundusmundi, 12:22:04 09/16/01 Sun
and could undoubtedly use more laughs, here's a satire I wrote a few months ago in response to the obnoxious audience "laughers" at the flying effects in CTHD. I received an irate response from somebody in the Netherlands, who berated me for picking on those "poor people." You be the judge. ;)
A link you may find illuminating (thanks to sassette at the C&S) -- OnM, 15:50:45 09/15/01 Sat
This was posted at the Buffy Cross & Stake, I found it of value, you may very well feel the same:

http://gandhiinstitute.org/#new

Scroll down to:

A Special Message:

TERRORISM AND NONVIOLENCE BY Arun Gandhi

Thanks, sassette, for posting this link!
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[> Thank you for posting this OnM!!! -- Nina, 18:41:35 09/15/01 Sat
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[> OnM. Beautiful sentiment, but isn't the Devil in the details? -- A8, 00:36:30 09/16/01 Sun
If someone could point me to a site or a treatise that outlines a feasible, detailed plan that is guaranteed to work to the satisfaction of all 6 billion people on the planet (and all those yet to be born), I'd sign on in a minute. I haven't seen one yet and I'm at a loss to think of something that would work.

I suppose to start, we could unilaterally disarm our military, disavow all alliances, divest ourselves of all our property and distribute it equally to every group who has had a historically verifiable wrong claimed against our nation, renounce the use of force under all circumstances (including self- defense), legalize everything (disband police force) and incarcerate no one (goes without saying--no death penalty), limit our freedom of expression to a form that is the least objectionable to the most sensitive religion or culture (as established by a committee of their choosing), restrict our use of non- renewable resources to those we produce domestically, ignore any activity occurring abroad that we would generally consider a violation of human rights, distribute all intellectual property and all publicly and privately developed technology free of charge to anyone who asks, and submit to any disciplinary action of any group or nation who can establish via the tribunal of their choosing that we have committed a wrong against them. That's just the short list of things we could do here to do our part to establish a Utopia where world peace and understanding might have a chance to flourish.

I'm really not being sarcastic here. That's what I think it would take for those who feel aggrieved out there to even begin to think that we have turned the corner and have started to make amends for our offenses against them. Apparently, we have been that evil to so many in our brief history. How could anyone who views us that way even be in the same room with us to start a dialogue unless we did all those things above first. It would be the only way to disprove our greed, hypocrisy and immorality before we could be trusted to engage in sincere dialogue. Our only choice would be unilateral submission. I haven't a clue how we would deal with wildcards like the clinically insane. If we let them fend for themselves or run rampant, we would be accused of indifference, if we tried to confine them to treat them, we'd be accused of cruelty or some sort of "ism."

Of course, BtVS would be banned. And humor. And this forum. Too much opportunity to offend someone's sensibilities or fundamental beliefs. I'd really miss you guys and my life, but if that's what it would take to ensure world peace, I suppose it would be a small price to pay. How much would you be willing to sacrifice so that what happened last Tueday will never happen to anyone anywhere on this planet again, if you had a 100 per cent guarantee?

A8
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[> [> The above was a frustration vent. I really am at a loss for a practical solution to this mess. -- A8, 00:38:17 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> Re: The above was a frustration vent. I really am at a loss for a practical solution to this mess. -- John Burwood, 05:11:26 09/16/01 Sun
The point surely is that is no solution. The realverse is infinitely diverse, infinitely complicated, and can not be put to rights. There is a two word name for people who believe the world can be turned into Utopia - and those two words are totalitarian and megalomaniac. Remember Angel's Epiphany. There is no great solution. Don't go mad trying to find one - that is the road to hell. Stick to the little things - they count.
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[> [> [> [> Well said, JB. -- Wisewoman, 09:27:29 09/16/01 Sun
If you're looking for a posting alias you could always use Wiseman!

;o)
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[> [> [> [> Completely agree, JB -- Rahael, 11:58:16 09/16/01 Sun
It is about the small things that we do. Maintaining humanity in the face of great inhumanity.

Sadly, Sassette seems to have had a pretty bad time of it over on the B&C board.

Echoing Philip Larkin, 'What remains of us is love', and Buffy, the following has brought me some measure of comfort (and I'm no Bible thumper!)

"Though I Speak with the tongues of men, and of angels , and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge ; and though I have all faith , so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am NOTHING

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

LOVE suffereth long, and is kind ; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself. is not puffed up.

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoyceth not in iniquity, but rejoyceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fall ; whether they be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophecy in part.
And now abideth faith, hope, LOVE, these three;
but the greatest of these is LOVE

(Corinthians 1:13 abr.)
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[> [> [> [> [> couldn't have said it better myself -- spotjon, 12:55:31 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> Another possible small step... -- A8, 11:59:54 09/16/01 Sun
..would be to reconvene the UN, including all NGO's and repesentatives of any groups not represented by a recognized national government to discuss and reaffirm the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I carry around a copy with me all the time. It is a blue print for a world without violence. The question is whether the world is really up to the task. The thing has been on the books for over 50 years. Not much progress has been made since.

For those of you who are interested, the text can be found at:

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
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[> [> oh no, not isms! -- anom, 08:31:17 09/16/01 Sun
"...we'd be accused of cruelty or some sort of 'ism.'"

Maybe if we started a new movement: anti-ismism!
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[> [> [> off subject, anom.... -- mundusmundi, 12:10:40 09/16/01 Sun
But have a good Rosh Hashanah (sp?), Tuesday. (Tishri, yes?)
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[> [> [> [> Re: off subject, anom....[& getting more so] -- anom, 21:25:43 09/16/01 Sun
"But have a good Rosh Hashanah (sp?), Tuesday. (Tishri, yes?)"

Hey, thanks, mm! You can spell it any way it sounds (unless you're writing it in Hebrew). Tishri's the month, yes; 5762's the year. And I won't be reading or posting to the board that day (1 day for me)--that much more to catch up with the next!

BTW, between 1 day a week away from the board & some computer problems I've been having, there's a lot of stuff I've wanted to respond to that I haven't had time for, or that was gone before I had the chance. Unfortunately, it's often the most thoughtful responses that take too long to write. Fortunately, there are many other posters to write thoughtful responses, but so many times I'd like to chime in & don't have the time.

Speaking of thoughtful responses, mm, remember my correspondent from an email list who wanted to know your credentials for making the statement that most Arabs/Muslims abhor violence? I appreciate your answer & that of some other folks on the board, but they're not going to satisfy someone who writes this:

"How exactly, btw, do you or your informant know that most Arabs or most Muslims hate violence? I have no idea whether either is true--how exactly do _you_ know? Or do you just believe it- -or _want_ to believe it? That's touching, I suppose, but it doesn't necessarily make for a clear-eyed view of the world."

That's one of his milder paragraphs. He, on the other hand, gets his info from memri.org, which translates "hundreds" of violent screeds from Arabic. They couldn't be overly selective in what they decide to make available in English, could they? So I don't know if it's worth trying to answer him, unless of course you happen to have carried out a survey of all the Muslims and/or Arabs in the world. Or a representative sample.

Wow. I have veered far, far from a simple thank you. I guess I'm just tired. You'd think attitudes like this guy's would be a small thing against the enormity of the actual events. But it bothers me. Hell, maybe he's calmed down by now. I hope I have. The way things are going, I probably won't answer him this year anyway.

Well. I hope the next year is better than this one, especially the last week of it.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: hey, cool, I'm an "informant" -- mm, 07:02:33 09/17/01 Mon
"How exactly, btw, do you or your informant know that most Arabs or most Muslims hate violence? I have no idea whether either is true--how exactly do _you_ know? Or do you just believe it- -or _want_ to believe it? That's touching, I suppose, but it doesn't necessarily make for a clear-eyed view of the world."

Well, that's actually not an entirely unsubstantial question he has. I can only base my answer on the evidence of my own eyes, ears and brain: 1) Arabs/Muslims that I've had the pleasure of knowing personally; 2) the majority of Arabs/Muslims that I've read or seen, most of which have been at least nominally sympathetic to our situation; 3) books by valid authorities on the subject, both Western and non-Western; and 4) the general history of their people, which clearly shows that while life in that region hasn't been a bed of roses, that the people living there have had many positive contributions to civilization as a whole, and that they hardly have a monopoly on murder.

Mostly, though, I guess I base my answer on the fact that we have independent evidence that Arabs/Muslims are human beings, and I think that most human beings want peace. This is partly based on personal experience; partly based, perhaps, on some wishful thinking. I agree that we should be clear-eyed in our views. Some Arabs/Muslims are hateful people, to be sure. (There was one extremist on PBS's "Hunting Bin Laden" special the other night who gave me the willies.) And one of my fears is that we may see an increase in this hatred before it ebbs. But I think overemphasizing the hate is every bit as myopic as assuming they're all lovey-dovey.

Your "friend's" reaction is pretty understandable (and I do wonder, from a purely military standpoint, if it is possible for a people to wage an effective war w/out dehumanizing "the enemy"). He's forthright in admitting that he knows little about Arabs as a people or Islam as a faith, and with emotions running high I dunno if anything you say is going to do anything but make him more entrenched in his position. All I can say is if anyone genuinely wants to learn about a particular subject, go out and do some balanced research. Compare the evidence, and decide for yourself. It's my experience that you can't change what people think. It is possible to change how they think. But the ultimate step is up to them.

(Or, when all else fails, catch a San Diego Chargers football game. QB Doug Flutie is Arab-American, and he hasn't hijacked any planes, last I heard.)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> glad you like that -- anom, 12:43:05 09/17/01 Mon
"I can only base my answer on the evidence of my own eyes, ears and brain...."

I'll probably quote that whole paragraph to the person who posted to that email list (I wouldn't call him a friend, esp. after what he wrote to me). Not your whole message, unless he asks, it's too long. But I think it would help if I could tell him whether you've had extensive contacts w/Arabs/Muslims or some other kind of expertise, even if it's just a lot of reading out of personal interest.

Sorry to keep coming back to this. (I would've taken it offlist--offboard?--by now if I'd had your email address.) I really appreciate what you've said & the time you've taken.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: glad you like that -- mm, 12:39:22 09/18/01 Tue
Your heart's in the right place, anom, but I can't help but feel talking to people like that is a waste of time. If they're truly interested in the subject, why are they busy spewing vitriol on a newsgroup when there's a plethora of information available elsewhere? As for "credentials," I also can't see how it matters. If a person admits he's a novice, then is that person's opinion invalid? On the other hand, if he's an expert in his field with plenty of Muslim friends, does that make him biased? See the futility?

What's scary about this situation is the fearmongers have a point. Bush had no sooner left a mosque yesterday trumpeting the virtues of Muslim-American "doctors and lawyers," when the feds announced they'd nabbed an Islamic physician as a potential suspect in the conspiracy. That's why terrorism is so insiduous. I keep thinking back to a quartet of Arabic-speaking men sitting near me a few weeks ago at the local coffee house. Were they simply four guys enjoying coffee, or could they have been a "cell?" That's what terrorism does: it penetrates the psyche and spawns suspicion and anxiety.

(Recent USA Today poll: 49% think "Arab-Americans" should wear ID badges. But exactly how are we defining the term? Should all AA's wear ID's, including Arab Jews and Arab Christians, or specifically Arab-Muslims? And what about non-Arab Muslims, who compose approx. 92% of the entire Islamic world? Only Shi'ites, or Sunnis too? What about Druze? Should American Black Muslims also wear the badges? My dad and I have semi-Semitic features; should we wear badges with a big question mark, just in case? And why are badges necessary anyway? One look at the hijackers' passport photos makes their ethnicity pretty obvious, IMO.)

Sorry for the sarcasm. I'm just at a loss for solutions. Fall Quarter classes start tomorrow; time to focus on something else for a while. :)
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[> [> [> I was going to say anti-somethingism, but the nothingists would probably be offended. -- A8, 12:56:27 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> Re: George Carlin has already had several epiphanies on this - -- Dedalus, 09:54:27 09/16/01 Sun
Unfortunately, no one listened to him. As always. We need Carlin for President.

Anyway, he developed two highly sophisticated ideas that would most assuredly produce world peace.

"My first plan is worldwide, year-round, non-stop folk dancing. In short, everyone in the world would be required to dance all the time. It leaves very little time for fighting, and what combat does occur is inefficient, because the combatants are constantly in motion."

Sounds logical. Imagine trying to hijack a plane with plastic knives while engaging in a traditional folk dance. No, I mean really sit back and imagine it ... see!? It would never work.

"Another plan I have is World Peace Through Formal Introductions. The idea is that everyone in the world would be required to meet everyone else in the world, formally, at least once. You'd have to look the person in the eye, shake hands, repeat their name, and try to remember one outstanding physical characteristic. My theory is, if you knew everyone in the world personally, you'd be less inclined to fight them in a war. 'Who? The Malaysians? Are you kidding? I know those people!'"

Of course, like any good plan, these will require some work. I'm very sure, however, that given enough time and motivation, they could be achieved.

I'm here to help.
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[> [> [> Then there is the Steve Martin corollary--give everyone banjos! -- A8, 11:48:43 09/16/01 Sun
In his old comedy routine, Steve Martin used to say how it was virtually impossible to be unhappy when you're playing the banjo. He would demonstrate by beginning to play : a-ding, dingy, ding, dingy, ding-a-dingy ding and then singing along with his light-hearted accompaniment, "oh death, and grief, and sorrow, and murder" [bobbing head from side to side as he would sing].
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[> [> [> [> Then we could take the skinheads bowling! -- OnM, 15:19:04 09/16/01 Sun
Or maybe not...

Actually, one of the reasons I posted the link was exactly because poor sassette was getting such a hard time of it from a number of the other posters, who seemed to be of the mistaken concept that just because one espouses peace and non-violence as a goal to work toward, or to allow its general principles to guide one thru life, that that doesn't mean abandoning the need for action when it is required, or that seeking non-violence makes one weak. I saw way too much of that back during the Vietnam war era of the 60's, (I clearly remember some military bigwig general type sarcastically referring to the peace sign as 'the mark of the American chicken') and one of the things that has given me some manner of encouragement for humanity's future after the horrific events of last week is that this time around, there are far more people urging caution in how we respond, and far more attention paid to the collateral damage that will occur when we take military action.

Whether this voice of reason prevails, and we seek to punish the truly guilty and not further alienate the persons of the world community who already dislike the U.S., we of course will need to wait and see. I'm just happy to hear that there are a greater number of people looking at the long term effects and the final balance to be achieved.

As to practical solutions, John Burwood pretty much got it right on, as several others have already commented. In another thread, the S3 opening ep 'Anne' was mentioned, and of course that is the one that contains the famous Buffy line, "...if he was really pissed off."

Even Gandhi might have limits. I certainly do.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Then we could take the skinheads bowling! -- Rufus, 16:07:53 09/16/01 Sun
I bookmarked that site from the Cross and Stake. You can't forget peaceful resolutions are possible in many circumstances, but where is that limit? If we don't fault Buffy in killing vampires or even some Knights in the protection of the world, how can we criticize the US for wanting to protect it's citizens? I wish we could find a peaceful resolution to all our disputes but the sad fact is that sometimes the only resolution in the face of a threat such as terrorism, is that you may have to fight to regain that peace. The answer isn't going to be simple. I feel that there may be some sad months ahead of us.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> I want to thank you guys for your intelligent responses to this -- Zus, 18:14:01 09/16/01 Sun
I followed the discussion at the cross and stake and felt really badly for sassette (and for Leora) for the subtle (and not so subtle) attacks which occurred. I responded to Leora's post, but the whole thing was deleted, so I'm not sure if she read my agreement with her. I knew that coming here would land me with more people who felt as I do.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I want to thank you guys for your intelligent responses to this -- Rufus, 18:42:08 09/16/01 Sun
Oh thanks so much Zus, I never got to see the responses to my post but spent the day apologizing for any extra grief I may have brought anyone. This is such a hard time, the last thing we need is to fight among ourselves. Keep posting you are so welcome here.....Leora/Rufus
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I want to thank you guys for your intelligent responses to this -- OnM, 19:23:09 09/16/01 Sun
I stopped over at the C&S a while ago, and found that sassette decided to divest herself from the internet until new Buffy eps begin, and/or until emotions settle down some. This saddens me. The community here at ATPo has been a source of solace to me, as I am sure it has been to others. I take pride in contributing to a discussion forum where even when we disagree with one another, as has indeed been the case over the last week, we still remain generally civil and decent and avoid personal attacks at someone*.

If anyone knows sassette's e-mail address and is friendly with her, please consider inviting her here, if she wishes to come. Our board would only benefit from her intelligence and thoughfulness.

*(Other than Jerry Falwell. You can attack him if you wish. No bombs, though-- non-violent verbiage only. Thank you very much.)

;-)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I want to thank you guys for your intelligent responses to this -- vampire hunter D, 02:43:52 09/17/01 Mon
"we still remain generally civil and decent and avoid personal attacks at someone"????

Have you forgoten that I still post here?

Have you forgoten that I've spent the last coulple of weeks declaring how I'm gonna bludgeon Herculese from AICN with a crowbar? (wait, I never mentioned the crowbar. Oh well, you're hearing about this now)

And has anyone else noticed that my posts have become disturbingly violent lately?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But you haven't offered to bludgeon any of *us*. -- OnM, 06:23:34 09/17/01 Mon
So, we make allowances.

;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, Drizzt... -- Wisewoman, 09:55:06 09/17/01 Mon
I've noticed that your posts have become much more coherent, and your spelling has improved! Can't speak for the violence, but I know you used workaholic and ectomorphic in the same sentence a while back...

Take care, Wisewoman ;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ok, I'm going to step *away* from Wisewoman now . . . -- d'Herblay, 10:02:40 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dub-dub, hon, Drizzt =/= vhD, last time I checked... -- Solitude1056, 10:31:32 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yikes, did I get the wrong guy? Mea culpa!! -- Wisewoman, 10:50:06 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yikes, did I get the wrong guy? Mea culpa!! -- Drizzt, 17:24:36 09/17/01 Mon
I think it was because Liquidram called us the "testosteron twins" wich was funny:) I did not say I wanted to beat up Hercules BTW I said I would be happy if vhD beat him up, and some rants about Hercules...

Checked at an internet dictionary.

ectomorphic and workaholic ARE words!

Ectomorph is a small boned person usually haveing slow-twich muscle fibers. A runners physique. Me and SMG are ectomorphs. Endomorph and Mesomorph are the other two general body types, although very few people fit any of the three definitions precicely...

Workaholic; works a lot, type A personality, driven or very focussed on work. Tell me SMG is not a workaholic? Anyway Sarah was working fourteen to eighteen hour days for six or seven days a week when they filmed season one. I would guess she negotiated a shorter work week; maby 65 to 75 hours/week instead of 80 to 90 hours/week?

Were you refering to my grammer or spelling? I do know I am not the best with grammer, punctuation, & syntax. Sure I mispell stuff also, but I try to add (sp?) if I am unclear on a word. Hey I'm a highschool droppout! Boo Hoo(joke)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, no, Drizzt, I was *praising* you! -- Wisewoman, 19:21:23 09/17/01 Mon
I wasn't being sarcastic. I thought it was great that you used workaholic and ectomorphic! And I agree that SMG is both.

Please forgive...no intent to offend...

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Blushes...I like praise:) -- Drizzt, 20:51:51 09/17/01 Mon
I missinterpated what you were saying about vhD/Drizzt???

Thanks for the compliment that you had to clarify for me...DuOh! as Homer Simpson says;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Great! Now everyone's gonna think the D stands for Drizzt -- vampire hunter D, 20:04:45 09/17/01 Mon
And it does not (it stands for something way cooler)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I know, I know, I'm sorry!! Sheesh... -- Wisewoman, 20:19:37 09/17/01 Mon
I'm beating myself with a whip, okay?

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Great! Now everyone's gonna think the D stands for Drizzt -- Drizzt, 20:57:39 09/17/01 Mon
Dog...man's best freind. Dogma...um, I don't know if that is cool or not; I am agnostic. The movie was cool though;) Dreams...what makes you sane when you wake up:') Daywalker...a baddass heroic and interesting(grin) vampire.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, it's cooler than that -- vampire hunter D, 21:44:37 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll bite. What's it stand for? And if you say "Dude", I'm gonna kill myself. -- VampRiley, 12:56:33 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> wait... vhD is Dedalus in disguise? *gasp* -- Solitude1056, 15:20:19 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, I'm not smartenought to be Dedalus. -- vampire hunter D, 20:01:40 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ahh, it's verdantheart's Dog. He got tired of Rufus' cats getting all the free press. ;) -- OnM, 16:28:02 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't hate us because we are beautiful....:):):) -- Rufus' cats, 16:40:09 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> "Drizzle, drazzle, drozzle, drome," perhaps? -- A8, 16:46:33 09/18/01 Tue
For those of you too young to remember, those were Mr. Wizard the Lizard's magic words to Tooter the Turtle: "Drizzle, drazzle, drozzle, drome, time for this one to come home."
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> (~sigh~) - I knew I was starting to be officially *old* when... -- OnM, 17:25:13 09/18/01 Tue
.. I would use this phrase, usually at the end of the day's work, and then have to explain it to other, younger persons in the room.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay, here's a couple more for you then... -- A8, 18:11:44 09/18/01 Tue
"Be just what you is, not what you is not...folks that do this are the happiest lot."

"Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a frog! Not bird, nor plane, nor even frog...just little ole' me--Underdog."

"He was once a little green slab of clay--I'm Gumby dammit!" (Oops timeline juxtaposition, 60's Gumby with early 80's Eddie Murphy)

"When you find yourself in danger, when you're threatened by a stranger, when it looks like you might take a lickin'...call out for Super Chicken!"

Someone shoot me! Please?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Recall them all but the first. Whazzis? -- OnM, 20:52:22 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also from Mr. Wizard the Lizard. Remember... -- A8, 23:05:22 09/18/01 Tue
.. The Turtle was always asking Mr. Wizard to send him to another place and time so that he could try to be something different. He would get into trouble and call out for the lizard to help him. At the end of each episode, Mr. Wizard would recite that little moral to Tooter (sp?) to no avail.
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[> [> [> [> [> I'm back to my ole' peace-loving self... -- A8, 18:18:34 09/16/01 Sun
..can't help but thinking whatever we do, we're screwed. I agree with you. I don't think that anyone who holds those views should be castigated (even IF their reason was that they were afraid for their lives--that's as acceptable a reason as any for me.).
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm back to my ole' peace-loving self... -- Rahael, 16:28:23 09/17/01 Mon
A8, glad to hear it! But the choices are terrible.

The particular problem facing the world is that Bin Laden and the Taliban are in remote region, they will almost certainly hold a terrified populace to ransom. Plus no one voted for them so the Afghani's are not morally culpable. Who'd want these choices?

Terrorism is particularly evil because it decimates the democratic options of the population that wields it (for whatever reason that may be). Its leaders are men who are used to killing. They become hardened killers. Democratic choices are taken away from the people. Some of the finest men and women die. And all that anyone is left with is blood. and lots of death.

I come from Sri Lanka. I am Tamil, and the Tamil Tigers have decimated the lives of millions of Tamils like me. My family and I still live in danger from them, even though I am now in London. They have perfected the art of suicide bombing. Everytime I hear of new outrages, I weep not only for my fellow Sri Lankans, but also for that young suicide bomber, usually near my age (23) who died for someone elses hypocritical, blood sodden ideal.

These ethical moral dilemmas have been with our community for 20 years. Everytime the Sri Lankan Government retaliated, it was me and my family getting bombed. Our town was subjected to the rule of the Sri Lankan army, the the Indian army, then finally the Tigers. At this point, I managed to escape. So through the last week I identified with all those Americans who faced the inhumanity of terrorism. And from now on, I will be forced to identify with the Afghanis.

Meanwhile back in Sri Lanka, my community are still quietly killing themselves.
New promos during Smackdown, You smell what I'm cooking? - - cknight, 09:34:06 09/16/01 Sun
You smell what I'm cooking fellow Buffyites!!!!(as the Rock would say) The new promos look cool. I saw them during Smackdown the other night (yes I watch Smackdown sometimes). The promo showed Spike facing down a demon biker gang & Willow saying how cranky he gets being a vamp and all.
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[> Re: New promos during Smackdown, You smell what I'm cooking? -- Drizzt, 10:20:46 09/16/01 Sun
Auugh! That Hercules was right! He is still annoying! I will avoid real spoilers from Hercules & all other sources.

A promo on TV is not a Spoiler...
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[> [> Re: New promos during Smackdown, You smell what I'm cooking? -- vampire hunter D, 13:33:39 09/16/01 Sun
He was only right about thebikers. That doesn't mean that everything else he said is true. I will still kick his ass if I meet him in person.
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[> [> [> Re: New promos during Smackdown, You smell what I'm cooking? -- Drizzt, 13:55:15 09/16/01 Sun
Normaly beating up a wheelchair bound green crippled guy would be "not cool" as Buffy would say, however I would be happy if you kick Hercules ass! Damn, he was annoying!

Luckily I have suppressed most of what he said out of discust; it is in my subconcious so I am not in danger of being spoiled even if he had any other correct spoillers...
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[> [> [> Hey Testosterone Twins! -- Liquidram, 14:29:40 09/16/01 Sun
Kicking ass is not necessary when it is far simpler to just NOT VISIT HIS SITE.

Sheesh.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Hey Testosterone Twins! -- Drizzt, 16:19:15 09/16/01 Sun
LOL Liquidram! Never been in a fight, ranting does feel good without actually hurting anyone...
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[> [> [> [> [> I'm suddenly reminded of a scene from "Fight Club" -- spotjon, 09:28:43 09/17/01 Mon
"I don't want to die without any scars."
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[> [> [> [> p.s. hey vamp .... j/k :) -- Liquidram, 21:35:13 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> j/k? new one on me -- anom, 10:06:33 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> j/k = just kidding -- Liq, 10:19:17 09/17/01 Mon
You know you're starved for new episodes when... -- Humanitas, 16:02:39 09/16/01 Sun
..You find yourself thinking of Anya, just because you had shrimp for dinner!
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[> Ummm, well I'm sure some of us here would still only think of Spike...;) -- Rufus, 16:09:39 09/16/01 Sun
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[> [> Re: Ummm, well I'm sure some of us here would still only think of Spike...;) -- Rendyl, 05:59:41 09/17/01 Mon
I dreamed about Spike the other night. Skipping the..cough..details I can say in my defense that I had a high fever and was under the influence of cold medicine. I had also (finally) watched 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon' earlier that night. I spent the non-Spike influenced parts of the night dreaming I was falling out of a tree.

Even dream roads lead to Spike. Sigh.

Ren
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[> [> [> What's the name of that cold medicine? LOL! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 09:35:53 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> Comeon WW, like you'd neeeeed cough medicine to dreamof Spike...;):):):):) -- Rufus, 12:10:56 09/17/01 Mon
It seems that not only all posts lead to Spike, but many fevered dreams as well....;)
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[> [> [> [> [> I'm willing to try it, if it guarantees Spike-filled dreams!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:04:47 09/17/01 Mon
I mean, sometimes I do dream about other boring things!

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm willing to try it, if it guarantees Spike-filled dreams!! ;o) -- Lia, 15:31:09 09/17/01 Mon
I had a NIGHTMARE about Spike the last time I dreamt about him!!! (Note: Last. As in not first!!!) I take this as a sign that we've separated for far too long and I'm in Ireland!!! I have to wait for another 3 and a half months for more Buffys!! Pity me!! Send me money!!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spikey dreams ;o) -- Isabel, 17:24:01 09/17/01 Mon
Come to think of it, Spike has made a cameo or two in my dreams this summer. (I thought it was the influence of my Buffy calendar.)

My, he's been a busy vampire this summer!! ;)
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[> [> Did someone mention Spike? ;) -- rowan, 07:00:00 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> Not me!....Not me!........ -- Rufus, 13:57:01 09/17/01 Mon
Though his name is guaranteed to stir up some Estrogenic whirlwind........:):):):)(I'm not sure there is such a word as estrogenic)
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[> [> [> [> Spoilers Ahead! Warning! Will Robinson! -- rowan, 15:25:30 09/17/01 Mon
Have you seen the promo where he is facing down the demon biker? Very estrogenic, fevered dream inducing!
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[> [> [> [> [> No I haven't ..............a patch will have to do...........:):):) -- Rufus, 16:22:44 09/17/01 Mon
An estrogen patch that is......:):):)
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[> Re: You know you're starved for new episodes when... -- Isabel, 16:24:48 09/16/01 Sun
Can you imagine her screaming if you'd had Hassenpfeffer (Rabbit Stew) or Welsh Rarebit? ;)
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[> [> Re: You know you're starved for new episodes when... -- Lucifer_Sponge, 16:27:34 09/16/01 Sun
Wouldn't she cheer, rather than scream?
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[> [> Re: You know you're starved for new episodes when... -- vampire hunter D, 02:00:23 09/17/01 Mon
Is anyone else intested in seeing Anya's reaction to Monty Python and the Holy Grail?
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[> [> [> Easy there, D, Xander probably can't afford a therapist just now... ;) -- OnM, 06:18:13 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> LOL! -- Solitude1056, 09:21:01 09/17/01 Mon
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[> [> [> Re: You know you're starved for new episodes when... -- rowan, 15:26:48 09/17/01 Mon
Even the thought of seeing Xander shirtless is appealing.
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[> [> [> [> LOL.......poor naked Xander -- Rufus, 16:24:20 09/17/01 Mon
It's time to have a little talk with Action Spike......:):):)
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[> Re: You know you're starved for new episodes when... -- d'Herblay, 11:31:48 09/17/01 Mon
. . you intentionally spill ashtrays just to pretend that vampires have visited.

. . you address authority figures in the manner with which the minions addressed Glory: "The report will be on your desk first thing in the morning, your scrumptiousness." "No, most sweaty-feelings inducing one, I do not know how fast I was going."

. . essays, essays, essays!!

. . a trip to the grocery store with your three-year-old becomes an exercise in Spikespeak: "Buckle up, kid. Daddy's putting the hammer down. I don't feature you eating that candy bar, niblet. Milk is life, little bit. Makes teeth hard. Makes bones strong. Makes you other than osteoporotic."

. . there occurs a national tragedy of such overwhelming proportions that you question all previous uses of the word tragedy, and, despite your best intentions, eventually there crosses your mind this thought: "How will the WB react to this, without episodes of Buffy to postpone?"
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[> [> Stop it, you're making me laugh too hard! -- Brian, 14:18:49 09/17/01 Mon
Buffy availability in all areas? -- spotjon, 13:12:39 09/17/01 Mon
Just curious, is there anybody here who doesn't have a UPN affiliate in their area? I know that here in St. Louis there is no full-time UPN affiliate, but our WB station is airing Buffy (along with Enterprise and Roswell) on Saturday nights. Which, by the way, means that I will be avoiding this board like the plague from Tuesday evening to Saturday evening. Is anybody here going to be Buffy- deprived this fall? I haven't heard anything about which areas won't air the show.
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[> Re: Buffy availability in all areas? -- Dariel, 13:36:13 09/17/01 Mon
Although UPN is available in the NYC area, they haven't been broadcasting since the WTC disaster: Most stations used to broadcast from one of the Towers. Right now, if you don't have cable (which I don't), you can't get UPN here. (Yes, I feel shallow even mentioning it!)
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[> [> Re: Buffy availability in all areas? -- Dedalus, 14:50:41 09/17/01 Mon
I think before too long, everyone is just going to od on the news, day in, day out. Shallow, perhaps, but there it is.

Spotjon, I can't believe the WB is airing Buffy and Roswell on Saturday night! Good for you, but how in the world can they manage to do that? I'm confused.
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[> [> [> I'm not sure how they managed it -- spotjon, 09:17:32 09/18/01 Tue
But they were a part-time UPN affiliate before Buffy made its move. They used to air Voyager and WWF Smackdown on the weekends, last season. I guess they already had the legal right to air UPN shows whenever WB wasn't on (i.e., Saturdays), so WB couldn't complain when they grabbed Buffy. Supposedly we will have a full-time UPN affiliate sometime next year, but it'll be a while until that happens.
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[> [> Re: Buffy availability in all areas? -- Cynthia, 03:51:57 09/18/01 Tue
I'm one of those people who live in NYC who doesn't have cable. If they don't replace the transmission tower that was lost in the WTC disaster soon, I'm not going to be able to see Buffy. Currently my building's antenna doesn't pull in UPN at all. Sigh.

Hopeful they will be up and running (for us cableless souls) before the premiere.
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[> I'M DEPRIVED!!! -- Marie, 01:19:02 09/18/01 Tue
Grrrr! and BOO-HOO!! Until January, I think. How am I going to come to this Board, yet avoid spoilers?! Answer = I'm not! I've become a 'ho'! Oh, somebody put a bloody stake in me!

Marie
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[> [> You could always make a deal with someone in the States to set up a webcam. -- A8, 18:04:39 09/18/01 Tue
It might be a choppy feed, but it could get you through the Fall.
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[> [> [> Re: You could always make a deal with someone in the States to set up a webcam. -- Marie, 02:25:40 09/19/01 Wed
Does that mean I'd see it on the computer? Sounds like an expensive way to watch, but worth it!

M
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[> [> [> [> Cost would depend on your connection and quality of cam, I think. -- A8, 22:56:14 09/19/01 Wed
Unfortunately, my dial-up and lines are so unreliable and full of static, I am barely able to keep a clear line to this board so webcams are out of the question for me. But If you found someone with a good connection (DSL or Cable) and you have a decent connection at your end, only the person at the transmitting end would have to have a cam (in fact, some IS Providers give them away free when you sign up), you could receive a crude picture and decent audio at your end. The person at the transmitting end would just have to point the camera and mic at the TV and have their cam linked to a server of some sort. I'm sure there must be a way to set up a private two-way feed. Maybe I'm wrong. Somebody else out there might know how this could work. There are USB video cameras (Logitech or Intel) that cost less that $100 US.
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[> Re: Buffy availability in all areas? -- verdantheart, 12:27:55 09/19/01 Wed
There is an affiliate that is in the Salt Lake City area, but we can't get it in Provo. So I'm deprived. I'm having my sister in NC tape it for me as a stop-gap. Not a really satisfying solution, though ...
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[> Re: Buffy availability in all areas? -- Cynthia, 18:40:37 09/19/01 Wed
Well as of today, I out of the loop. Although I live in NYC which has UPN, due to the collaspe of the WTC, I can't get the station. The local UPN's antenna was on top of the WTC, along with every other channel here in NYC. When went down, so did the signal for those of us that don't have cable.

I am hoping that by premiere day, the station will have it's antenna up at the Empire State Building, which is where it use to be until they built the WTC, which was higher. I've gotten some of my channels back this way. Otherwise, I'm not only out of be able to watch the reruns (at least that's by only financial choice and I'm hoping to have enough funds to get the DVS's as they come out) but will miss the premiere too. Sigh.

This is nothing in scale of things that have happened and are happening, but Buffy season six was one of the small things I was looking forward too during these troubled times.

Keeping my fingers crossed.
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[> [> UPN NYC says their new antenna should be finished by 9/23. -- Dariel, 19:23:21 09/19/01 Wed
1st Episode of Season Six -- Sabrina Morris, 19:11:56 09/17/01 Mon
Hi all,

My name is Sabrina and I am from Queensland, Australia.

I am looking for some one who might be able to help me out. The first episode of season six is about to air over in the states in a matter of weeks. I will have to wait until March next year to see this episode. I usually read the episode details through websites, but this is an exception, I would really like to see this episode as soon as I can.

I was wondering if anyone would be able to send me a copy of episode 1 of Season Six, taped from the TV once it has aired over there.

Of course I would pay all expenses and would like anyone who could help me out, to contact me by Email and name their price.

Thanks for this opportunity, Sabrina Email: sabrina_morris@hotmail.com

I would also like to offer my deepest sympathy to all those affected by this horrible act of terrorism. May thoughts and prays are will all.
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[> Re: 1st Episode of Season Six -- Wisewoman, 19:28:53 09/17/01 Mon
Hon, I'd be happy to tape it and send it to you, but are we on the same system? I know that video tapes in the UK are a different format and can't be played on our VCRs. Are you VHS or PAL format in Australia? Let us know.

;o)
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[> [> Re: 1st Episode of Season Six -- gds, 21:16:45 09/17/01 Mon
Unfortunately Australia is on PAL. It requires special software or hardware to convert to another standard.

VHS is a tape standard not a broadcast standard

for world info see http://www.sivideo.com/9stand.htm
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[> [> [> We're not getting new ep's till March?!?!?! -- Leaf, 06:39:01 09/18/01 Tue
It would be alright if her VCR has a NTSC playback option.

I can't believe that we have to wait till march this past season we were only behind by about 5 weeks
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[> [> [> Tape formats can be converted -- Masq, 10:50:33 09/18/01 Tue
I accidentally taped over my copy of "Choices" a couple years ago and bought another copy from amazon UK, then took it to a local place that had tape dubbing services. They converted it from PAL to VHS for me. Quality wasn't the best, but it served my purpose at the time. It is likely there are VHS to PAL dubbing services in other countries.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Tape formats can be converted -- gds, 21:49:11 09/18/01 Tue
With the right equipment or softwareware they can be converted. E.g. I almost bought a DVD that would convert any standard to NTSC. I didn't because not only was the DVD player more expensive, I have had 2 normal DVD players so far and both have had problems. If I got the international player & international disks then I would have to get another international player when it came time to replace it. Also I would have to pay a much higher price for the disks than I currently pay. It is also posssible to buy converter TVs or converter boxes. Basically its a matter of money.

I believe (but am not positive) that it is currently possible with the right computer peripherals & software to convert them. See
http://www.cwol.com/dazzle/digital-video-creator-ii.htm for something that MIGHT do the job.

Other relavent links are: http://sprysgi.sghms.ac.uk/~cspry/links/video_digital.html http://www.canopuscorp.com/products/dvfc.php3 http://www.keene.co.uk/system/keene.htm http://www.codefreedvdplayers.com/SITE_faq.shtml
Here's Wanda! *spoilers* -- Deeva, 23:03:02 09/17/01 Mon
Wanda's got a teeny, tiny bit to say this week.

http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Wanda/Trans/Archive2001/010917.html

Ughhhhh. The wait is making me antsy! So near yet so far!
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[> Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- WW, 09:45:13 09/18/01 Tue
So I'm thinking, "Tara," "Anya," "Dawn"...all four-letter names...

;o)
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[> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- Liq, 10:00:34 09/18/01 Tue
I'm thinking LOVE which leaves it wide open.
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[> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- rowan, 10:54:35 09/18/01 Tue
Liq, I'm with you. After all, Joyce and Jenny don't fit the four letter model, so that's why I didn't think this meant Anya or Tara. I thought "love" -- someone greatly associated with love this season will die.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- Deeva, 10:59:49 09/18/01 Tue
I'm thinkin' it has to do with "love", too.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- Liq, 11:20:50 09/18/01 Tue
Yep, and that's pretty scary when you think about it, huh?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- Deeva, 11:39:39 09/18/01 Tue
Yep. Cuz I can only come up with 1, maybe 2 possibilities and I don't want it to be either. Well, I'm really hoping that it's not the one that I really love over the other, which is still not okay but I'll take that option over the first one. Gee, can I be anymore cryptic or are we on the same wave length here?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- Liq, 11:44:00 09/18/01 Tue
I believe we are.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- rowan, 13:20:07 09/18/01 Tue
It just better not be Spike. Or Dawn.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- zus, 15:02:02 09/18/01 Tue
See, now, if it's "love" that could be anyone in the cast. They all have love in their life-- Spike loves Buffy, Buffy loves Dawn, Anya and Xander, Tara and Willow. I'm thinking it was Wanda's cryptic way of saying "I have no idea"
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- Lucifer_Sponge, 19:07:00 09/18/01 Tue
I swear to God... if it's Tara, I'll stop watching.

Then again, I wouldn't want Anya or Dawn ousted either. Or Spike. You know what? They really shouldn't get rid of -anyone-. I just can't imagine the show without the cast they have now...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Four letter words? *Spoilers* -- Dariel, 20:45:10 09/18/01 Tue
I'm with you-don't want anyone to go. It's bad enough we're losing Giles most of the time.
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[> [> different take on Four letter words *Spoilers* -- Wilder, 14:08:25 09/18/01 Tue
I could be totally off but I was thinking "Emmy"
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[> [> [> Re: Four letter words *Spoilers* -- Simplicity, 15:13:35 09/18/01 Tue
I think she was referring to LOVE but it just so happens that Tara, Dawn, and Anya have four letter names.

Also. . .there have been hints that these three relationships are going to be tough this year so it could be any one of them.
What's in your closet? -- Brian, 04:23:19 09/18/01 Tue
Having just finished reading what posters might wear to our Visual Costume Party got me thinking. What kind of outfit do you have in your closet that might show up in a Buffy episode?

I have a pinstripe, double breasted suit complete with hat, spats, gat, and loud tie. Could be worn by Spike if they ever did a Star Trek - A Piece of the Action type episode. A demon comes to Sunnydale that transports the gang back to the roaring 20's.
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[> Re: What's in your closet? -- Deeva, 08:33:01 09/18/01 Tue
Besides a lot of skeletons? Sorry couldn't resist the obvious. It was beckoning to me. Ummm....I've got a lot of leather. Pants, skirts, jackets (long and short) and some pretty cool knee high boots. Living in San Francisco I can wear it pretty much most of the year. Not sure who would wear all I've got, maybe Buffy but we're hardly the same size as I'm 5'9". Now that I think of it I've got this great floor length sweater-coat-dress that Dru would wear. It's kinda dramatic and Matrix-y.
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[> [> Costume Closet -- fresne, 11:14:49 09/18/01 Tue
Heh, interesting question. I actually have more costumes than I have "real" ie work clothes. My housemate and I share a walk in closet and two sewing machines. We have everything from generic medieval to Dendarri (futuristic mercs). We attend quite a few costumed ballroom events.

On the other hand, if I don't do laundry once a week, well, the clothing situation is dire.
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[> [> [> Re: Costume Closet -- Humanitas, 12:14:36 09/18/01 Tue
I don't have anything that might show up on Buffy, but I do have a red smoking jacket that would be killer on the Host!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Costume Closet -- Isabel, 20:02:10 09/18/01 Tue
I've got a dress the like of which we've seen on both Darla and Buffy.

We're talking hoops, bum roll, velvet skirts, a brocade low-cut bodice and lets not forget the boned corset. (Ok, the corset has plastic boning and is blue denim with a Tweety-Bird pattern on it, but you can't see that through the brocade.) A friend of mine had an Elizabethan Wedding and I was in the wedding party. I realize that perhaps only Darla was alive during the reign of Elizabeth I, but trim the stuffed sleeves and that dress probably could fit in until the late 18th century.

I used to have a Colonial girl's dress, circa 1776 that I wore for the Bicentennial, but I was 10 and the dress is long gone.

Everything else is normal, except for the Star Trek uniform, and I think we'd agree that Buffy'd rather be naked.
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[> [> Hey, Deev, you're breaking my heart all over again...all 8 of them.;-) -- A8, 23:22:01 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> [> Ummm....sorry? (gingerly stepping around the bits & pieces) ;o) -- Deeva, 09:25:59 09/19/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> Like a monster truck on my heart, she did donuts while I watched... -- A8, 00:11:06 09/20/01 Thu
..Sorry--old Kids in the Hall reference.
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[> Re: What's in your closet? -- Helen, 01:59:00 09/19/01 Wed
I was once in a stage production of Les Liaisons Dangereuses as Cecile de Volanges, wearing a fabulous dress almost exactly like Buff's from Halloween. Corset, bustle, and powdered wig. I'm actually thinking of starting lobbying for a return to these clothes - you can take all morning getting dressed because it really does take that long, your boobs point north and even I end up with a waspish waist.

Most of my summer dresses are quite Anya-ish, and I would do anything for Angel's billowy coat of Pain!
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[> [> Billowy coat of pain! -- Deeva, 09:16:49 09/19/01 Wed
It's an awesome and really sexy look! Looks really great on a slighty windy day. Just walking down a city sidewalk with that on, would make you feel incredibly tall! Almost like you're saying to the world "Ya got sumpin' ta say? Didn't think so." Eye candy.
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[> [> Re: What's in your closet? -- fresne, 10:50:34 09/19/01 Wed
That and you absolutely have to have someone help you dress. Tightening your own corset requires a contortionist. And don't get me started on hooks and eyes. From now on zippers or grommets.

Wore my 1880s walking dress to work last Halloween and a friend commented that he finally understood what they mean by heaving breasts. When there is no where to go but up.

Which makes me wonder, did a corset come with the period dress that Buffy wore? Trying to remember if it used a hoop, bustle, panniers, or heck, petticoats.
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[> [> [> Re: What's in your closet? -- Humanitas, 15:01:08 09/19/01 Wed
Somebody remind me when that ep comes around on FX, and I'll give you as detailed an analysis as I can.
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[> [> [> Buffy's corset -- Helen, 01:18:14 09/20/01 Thu
Having minions to help you dress is most of the fun!

Who knows - Buff's dress didn't look very ... structural, and the real ones really are. Dresses as an all in one are relatively modern - in the Elizabethan age particularly the sleeves, bodice and skirts were all seperate, stitched together once they were on and unstitched for removal.

But if Buffy did have a corset, who would have been lucky enough to help??
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[> Re: What's in your closet? -- Millan, 14:00:22 09/19/01 Wed
Apart from leather pants? :)

Well, I guess I could contribute with some really short skirts and a couple of cute summer dresses that could be in most episodes. Also some glittery formal dresses for eps like The Prom.

I do have one old-fashioned dress made of red velve-like material. The style is around early 1600 century. Hmm, that's almost too old...

/Millan

"Dignity? You? In relation to clothes? I'm awash in a sea of confusion." - Cordelia, Graduation Day, part 1
Suspension of Disbeleif -- Drizzt, 08:05:10 09/18/01 Tue
An earlier thread asked what people thought of the actors appearance age-wise in the various seasons, and branched out like normal here;)

My question is for those who have a collection of tapes w/o the commercials. How different is the experience of watching the show without the interuption of commercials?

As far as me, if I anylise it on a pure logic basis I think "Why don't the Scoobies have a few machine guns? Why haven't any vamps or demons tried to take out Buffy with a sniper rifle?" Actually if the show did that it might be realistic, but I would like it less...the show emphasises real effort and cleverness instead of allways a "bigger stick" wich lead to the Cold War with Russia. Nukes are the BIGGEST "sticks" in this world... Okay, I branched off topic myself:-) I only have three tapes that I bought that are comercial-free. I am drawn into the show emotionaly with or w/o commercials to the same degree. I am a numbed couch potatoe that sees commercials after the news/reality shows and fictional shows, so the commercials have no effect on me. Except Mentos commercials are the most annoying I have ever seen; those basterd marketers made me remember their candy by deliberately annoying me!
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[> Re: Suspension of Disbeleif -- Drizzt, 08:14:49 09/18/01 Tue
Five episodes in season five made me cry;( wich is actually good because that meant I cared about the characters as people and is a testament to good acting and character personality developement. No cardboard steryotype boring characters...unless it is Joss deliberately making fun of a steryotype;)

One case where a commercial was very jarring was when I watched The Body. Right after one of the gutwrenching scenes where someone is crying about Joyce there was a coke commercial with a big party, music & a big fat guy dancing like Joss ...
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[> Re: Suspension of Disbeleif -- Marie, 08:19:43 09/18/01 Tue
I'm one of the addicts who first tapes all the episodes then goes out and buys the box sets as soon as they're available (I mean, who cares if my four-year old need new shoes??!!), then re-uses the old tapes for the next series, and so on, and so on!

I don't care about the adverts, actually - you can fast forward, after all. I do care about the cuts certain channels (at least over here) made, especially with regard to Angel - some of the cuts were so vast, the dialogue made no sense (for instance, in the episode where Kate goes after her father's killers, the wonderful fight scene at the end was cut almost entirely, and as for the episode where Angel was tortured by Spike, that scene more or less disappeared.

So really, I guess my answer to your question would be - ads are fine, just make sure the programme is shown at a time of day when cuts are not necessary (the wonderful BBC here shows Buffy twice a week - at 6.00 p.m. and uncut at 11.45 p.m. later in the week).

Marie

p.s. Always wondered, myself, after Buffy terminated the Judge, why some of the vamps didn't think "Hey - gotta get me one of those!"
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[> [> Re: Suspension of Disbeleif -- Drizzt, 08:26:22 09/18/01 Tue
Solitude posted something very good about why demons fight up close and personal. Something to do with "old codes" and an instinct to "feel the life they take" to paraphrase...

Solitude explained it much better than me, also Solitude's thread had a self-consistent logic that is preferable to saying "Joss does not want guns & rocket launchers on his show"
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[> [> [> Old codes -- Marie, 08:37:51 09/18/01 Tue
I take your meaning, and I can understand that the Scoobies wouldn't last long against vamps who come with those sort of weapons, and neither would the show. And I wouldn't want to watch that sort of show, either. But Darla was one of the oldest vampires we've met so far, and she didn't scorn to use a pair of six-shooters against Buffy and Angel. So how come no-one else does? Faith, for instance, when she shot Angel full of poison from that roof, would have done better, from her point of view, to plant a bullet right between Buffy's eyes.

M
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[> [> [> [> Re: Old codes -- Kerri, 10:05:31 09/18/01 Tue
Not sure about all vamps-but with Spike its about the honor. About proving he's stronger, he's better then the slayer he kills. It's also about taking the victim's blood, their life.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Old codes -- Drizzt, 12:14:53 09/18/01 Tue
Darla and all vamps are the most human of the demons of the Buffyverse being hybrids and haveing the "taint of humanity" as the Judge said. So being more human Darla and other vamps would base thier desisions and methods of violence on the human personality that defines what the demon becomes. Compare the much more primative vamp nature that Angel/greenspikeyvamp exibited on Pylea to his normal Angel/vampface...

PS wait for some comments from Solitude; it was his theory.
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[> [> [> [> Faith wanted Buffy to see it coming ... -- Earl Allison, 04:39:22 09/19/01 Wed
I'm reminded of a taunt Ah-nuld used in his movie "Commando" when he convinces the main baddy to come at him with a knife instead of using a pistol. Something along the lines of "you don't want to shoot me ... you want to stick the knife in me ... see the light fade from my eyes ..."

Which the villain promptly tries, getting killed while Ah-nuld rattles off a terrible pun about letting off steam (he impaled the guy with a hollow pipe against a steam tank, get it?).

That's how Faith has always struck me, indeed, how MOST of the Buffy villains (or almost villains, like Faith) behave. ANYONE can pull a trigger, but they want it up-close and personal, their skill and strength against you.

Faith didn't want Buffy's death to be nearly that clean, quick, or angst-free. Far, far better to kill her only after killing and maiming her friends first, tearing out her heart in a figurative sense before killing her literally. Makes you wonder who decided on the poison used, the Mayor, or Faith?

My $.02

Take it and run.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Faith wanted Buffy to see it coming ... -- Marie, 06:02:48 09/19/01 Wed
Yes. I realised that even as I posted, and like I said, I realise that JW doesn't want to go that way. All I meant, I guess, was that with Faith in murdering b***h mode, or with any vamp who had any sense, a gun with a scope or whatever it is you call it (I've never in my life actually seen a real gun!) would be kinda handy, what think you? Spike tried it, remember? Think he's still got it? And would use it, if he ever got his chip back and she pissed him off enough?

M
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Faith wanted Buffy to see it coming ... -- Drizzt, 09:48:07 09/19/01 Wed
Faith is "Full of Love" like Buffy; part of being chosen as a Slayer is that quality IMHO. Faith had a hard life & clung to the Mayor when she was given the cold shoulder by Buffy.

Angel loves Buffy; when he became Angelus his love got seriously twisted and he hurt people she loves, BUT he did not hurt Buffy directly. I think it is the same situation with Faiths feelings for Buffy, love that became twisted. Buffy loved Faith, but was revolted by her because she saw the darker potential of herself in Faith. Look into your own eyes in a mirror and see your soul; it is freaky.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Old codes -- Malandanza, 09:04:44 09/19/01 Wed
With the older vampires, the "Old Codes" might have some weight -- but what about the recent vampires?

We have also seen (with Angelus) that vampires are not frozen in the state of development from the time they were turned -- Angelus evolved from a reckless murderer into a cautious "artist." Mr. Trick had learned how to use computers (and was openly contemptuous of the sword-wielding eliminati). Spike, of course, remade himself completely. So why don't the old vampires use guns?

Maybe when the demon is in control they revert to their more primitive state -- the demon is unreasoning (as we have seen in Pylea and after a person has been vamped but before they have drunk blood -- when the demon and human personalities have not yet been integrated). It may not think about using a gun (except, perhaps, as a club) and act on instinct. There is also the possibility that a person will survive the gunshot (many people do) where he would not have survived having his throat ripped out. For vampires concerned about publicity, killing with a gun would attract more attention from the police -- and be more traceable -- than would a more traditional style of killing (at least in LA, they tend to ignore then occult related cases -- one of the reasons Kate came under such scrutiny by following them). I also cannot imagine vampires & demons spending time at a shooting range to improve their marksmanship.

For recently turned vampires, there seems to be little reason for them to have prejudices against "modern" weaponry. However, a vampire is an amalgam of his demonic and human personalities -- the demon doesn't know about guns and if the human had never used a gun before being vamped, why would we expect him to use a gun after being vamped? 'Yes,' you say, 'but surely some vampires would have used guns before their vamping...' Perhaps. Remember: this is California, not rural Arizona or Texas -- not many people have guns -- they're practically illegal. Now take the percentage of those who own guns and determine how many of them will be vamped. Vampires tend to prey upon the weak -- a mountain man with an arsenal of illegal weaponry that would make small third world countries envious is not likely to be among hunted. So victims would rarely have had any familiarity with guns before being vamped and little inclination to learn afterward.

But then, Harmony has become reasonably proficient in using a crossbow...
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[> [> [> Hunh? -- Solitude1056, 19:31:02 09/18/01 Tue
Wow, I did? You sure that wasn't mundusmundi or Dedalus or OnM or whomeever?





Or maybe I'm just senile already...
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[> [> [> [> Re: Hunh? -- Drizzt, 22:07:19 09/18/01 Tue
Not really sure, that thread is in the archives and I do not know what month it was.

Maby whoever posted it originally will add some input; I only remember the gestault of it, not details.

Never correct someone when they compliment you by mistake;)

BTW Solitude are you going to put all of your "mini lectures" somewhere that they are easy to find? Loved the three or four that I read!
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[> Re: Suspension of Disbeleif -- Humanitas, 12:29:14 09/18/01 Tue
I think it depends on the episode. I've seen the available VHS tapes of S1, and the stories work fine without commercials.

On the other hand, for me, one of the thrills of the last part of this season (post-Body) was letting Joss get me all worked up, and then going "What?! Commercial!?! You bastards!" I found myself literally (and I'm a little embarased to admit this) bouncing up and down on the couch in anticipation. Then, the commercial break would be just long enough for me to calm down to the point of fooling myself into believing that I could handle the next segment, and WHAM! They'd do it to me again. Sheer adrenaline.

And let's not even discuss the ciffhanger episodes!
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[> [> LOL and I agree RE cliffhanger episodes. -- Drizzt, 12:36:27 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> Re: Suspension of Disbeleif -- Rattletrap, 16:52:46 09/18/01 Tue
The commercials don't typically bother me too much, but I try to take them out on my tapes, if I'm home.

Some episodes, though . . . The Body, it just seemed garish and insulting to cut away from such a beautifully done piece to tacky Pizza Hut ads. Ugh.
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[> [> [> Re: Suspension of Disbelief -- Nina, 19:29:03 09/20/01 Thu
"The Body, it just seemed garish and insulting to cut away from such a beautifully done piece to tacky Pizza Hut ads. Ugh."

For some reason, that's the only episode I couldn't retape ad free! :( Too bad for me as I felt it really needed to be seen in continuity.

What I like the most here is what they do with Buffy on the French network. The translation is awful, but the way they handle the commercials is perfect. They only put commercials between acts (not after the credits) and it's 2 commercials only. 1 minute. Really it's enough to make you go "uh?" without making you nuts. Too bad that big networks need the adverdizing money!
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[> [> Re: Suspension of Disbeleif -- Cactus Watcher, 17:00:45 09/18/01 Tue
After watching a few tapes with commercials, I find myself futilely pushing the fast forward to get through the *!@# ads during the network broadcasts.
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[> [> [> Re: Suspension of Disbeleif -- Drizzt, 18:30:22 09/18/01 Tue
I have also futily pushed fast forward on my VCR control when watching a LIVE broadcast! Oh I felt silly;)
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[> [> [> [> Suspension of the Episode -- Solitude1056, 19:35:25 09/18/01 Tue
Odd. When I watched Doppelgangland on mp3 with a friend (to introduce, natch, Evil Willow)... it was abrupt and jarring that there was a short black space and we were back in the episode. As much as the commercials bug me (and even more so since my remote died and I can't just mute arbitrarily), I need them to chill for a minute before getting ready for the next scene. In plays, there's a dead space while the curtain falls between Acts. Somehow, I still need that to process the past Act before the next one can begin...
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Suspension of the Episode -- Drizzt, 22:00:22 09/18/01 Tue
I am used to commercials & most do not affect me much; it was the transition between the horror at the death of Joyce to a party with a fat guy dancing enthusiastically that was really jarring!

I only have a couple of tapes w/o commercials & sometimes I fast-forward through comercials, while other times I just let the tape run...

Maby if the black screen on the tapes w/o commercials lasted for 10 seconds it would be better? What is an ideal break time between scenes? Of course the problem is also how different the scenes are plotwise and in terms of chronology...

One other thing; movies are designed to be seen all at once, so the transition between scenes takes that into account. TV shows are made with the assumption of commercials, so the transition does not have to be as neat; take out the commercials and you notice the transition of scenes a lot more.
New article - Joss/James quotage -- Liq, 13:36:02 09/18/01 Tue
The Once and Future Buffy
http://tv.zap2it.com/sciencefiction/otherworlds.html?20561 Mon, Sep 17, 2001 12:13 PM PDT

by Kate O'Hare On Monday, Sept. 24 at 7 p.m. ET, FX begins weekday airings of "Buffy
the Vampire Slayer," starting with the two-part premiere "Welcome to the Hellmouth."

Many have discovered the show -- which launched on The WB, and hops to UPN beginning Oct. 2 -- over the course of its five-year, 100-episode run, and may be wondering how it all began. So, it's time to see how series creator Joss Whedon and others have addressed questions about the show at various times.

To get you started, "Buffy" centers on the one girl in each generation -- in our case, California teen Buffy Summers (Sarah Michelle Gellar) -- given super-strength and tapped to fight vampires and other evil creatures.

In Buffy's case, she was originally called in Los Angeles (I'd recommend seeing the original "Buffy" movie, but writer Whedon's not pleased with how it turned out) and wound up moving north to Sunnydale, home of the aforementioned Hellmouth and the destination of choice for most supernatural baddies.

So, how does a Slayer get chosen? Says Whedon, from March 2001, "Oh, why did they choose Buffy? How do Slayers get chosen? Seems kind of random, doesn't it? Well, it is. I'd assume it is. I'd assume there is no qualification. A child is born, and that child can be rich or poor, from any nation. It may be that that child is born in a particular place where there is gonna be trouble, like Sunnydale."
"But the fact is, if there's a pattern, it is not one we will ever be able to discern. It's random."

As each Slayer dies, another is created (not born, they're already alive). The governing body for Slayers, the U.K.-based Council of Watchers, must find, train and support the new Slayer. How is this done? In the same interview, Whedon says, "Well, they can read the signs. They find the potentials, basically, like the Dalai Lama. They send Watchers out to watch over certain girls who may or may not be called. So, it's a hard life."

Much has been made of the fact that vampires do not have souls -- with one exception. Angel (David Boreanaz), a broody Irish vampire, was given back his soul as a punishment via a Gypsy curse. Now he suffers (and does he) from guilt over his past misdeeds and is constantly striving -- both on "Buffy" and now on his WB spin- off, "Angel" -- to redeem himself. Along the way, he fell hard for Buffy, but ultimately had to give her up to pursue his destiny.

But, as the last couple of seasons have shown, even a vampire without a soul can love Buffy. Spike (James Marsters), a Britpunk vampire introduced as a villain in season two, has also fallen for the Slayer. Prevented from killing by an experimental microchip in his brain, he not only has been a fool for Buffy's love, but has shown definite inclinations toward doing good for its own sake.

So, that begs the question, what is the role of the soul in the Buffy-verse, if one can love and do good without one? Says Whedon, also from March 2001, "A soul is the thing that separates a human from a demon. It's the thing that points you north instead of south, that makes your instinct to do good instead of to do bad."

"Therefore a vampire can feel love. They can have all the whims and quandaries of a normal person, if they're a vampire or a demon, but their basic instinct is to create chaos and evil and destruction, instead of love and bonding and nurturing and stuff. That's the basic difference."

"A lot of demons, like Spike, for example, are not that different from a lot of people we know. It's not cut-and-dried. He is capable of great love, but great love is usually a very selfish thing, but he's trying."

David Greenwalt partnered with Whedon on "Buffy," and now is the show-runner and executive producer of "Angel." From Aug. 2001, he says, "Are we human because we have a soul, or do we become human and therefore gain a soul? Certainly there are people in the world without souls."
"Angel's soul is based on the fact that he must feel guilt and pain and sorrow for all he's done. The Slayer had an incredible effect on Angel. Angel saw her and wanted to be a better person, seeing her, and he'd had a soul for 100 years at that point."

"Same thing, Spike, to his incredible horror, has fallen in love with the Slayer and wants the best for her. To me, he's become a little bit human because of that."

Says Marsters, from early September 2001, "The soul? The universe is such more complicated than we know, the real one. It's never as simple as it seems. But there is something to the makeup of a being that is obviously beyond the soul, or that can come to the conclusion of good without a soul. How that happens, I don't know."

"But what I do know is, I don't know half of what's going on around me in this world, so the fact that there is an unanswered mystery in the 'Buffy' world is just fine with me."

And just what is it about the Slayer that makes her so darn
irresistible to her vampire loves? A large part of the credit goes to Gellar, which Whedon emphasizes in a quote from March 1997, "She gets the idea of 'Buffy,' which is that she comes off to some people as a bimbo, but she's very much not that. She's very much just quirky. She's got that insane internal logic that comes from being a Southern
California teenager, and she may come off to a villain as a bimbo. A villain may think, 'Oh, there's the expendable one,' but they are soon disabused of that notion. She is intelligent."

"Sarah makes you feel that, but at the same time, she can be completely petulant or bratty or funny or silly or even scared. She works the whole spectrum."

As to just which kind of people he hoped would love his show, Whedon says, from April 1998, "I want a 12-year-old girl to write in her diary about the show, and I want a 50-year-old guy to sit on the couch and get into it. The whole point is, everyone's invited."

But, adds Marsters, from July 2000, "You don't sit back on the couch watching 'Buffy,' you have to sit forward and think about it."
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[> Marsters Quote -- Drizzt, 14:10:48 09/18/01 Tue
Marsters..."You don't sit back on the couch watching Buffy,'you have to sit forward and think about it"

Marsters is one of us thinkers in addition to being a swell actor:) That quote applies to everyone here...
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[> [> Re: Marsters Quote -- Humanitas, 15:47:42 09/18/01 Tue
Trouble is, usually the show is so darn entertaining that I can't analyze it the first time I watch it. Not that that's a bad thing, but it is hard on the TTMQ. ;) That's why I'm so looking forward to the re-runs starting next week. I've already bought a stack of videotapes!
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[> [> [> Re: Marsters Quote -- Kerri, 19:00:00 09/18/01 Tue
I usually tape the episode then watch it the next day to savor all the philosophical goodness I missed the first viewing.
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[> Quote of the week -- Masquerade, 14:16:22 09/18/01 Tue
"You don't sit back on the couch watching 'Buffy,' you have to sit forward and think about it."

--James Marsters
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[> [> We should have a quote of the week... -- Kerri, 19:02:59 09/18/01 Tue
It could be a quote either from Buffy or that applies to Buffy. Perhaps something that fits in with the week's episode when there are new ones. I think it could be fun. Anyone else think so?
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[> [> [> Re: We should have a quote of the week... -- Masq, 06:31:58 09/19/01 Wed
I've occassionally called certain lines written by posters on the board the "quote of the week" if they were clever, Buffy-related or not. Just a way to call attention to those here who can turn a phrase. : )
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[> Re: Joss/James quotage - spoilery spec inspired by it -- John Burwood, 00:38:08 09/19/01 Wed
Thanks for the quotage. The joss comment about the selfishness of love set me thinking about the B/A & B/S relationships. It would make sense to counterpoint the two relationships to show the diff twixt Angel with soul & Spike without soul. Both truly love Buffy & want to make her happy. But Angel rose above his love & left her so she had a chance to move on. Maybe Spike will be unable to rise above his love & move on even when she wants to. Cue for unlimited angst & lots of metaphors. Does this make sense?
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[> [> I don't know... -- Voxpopuli, 04:46:43 09/19/01 Wed
I may be wrong, but did you notice that not once, since Crush, did Spike tell Buffy that he loved her or confronted her with the fact that he really loved her. Even that scene in The Gift was not a sign that he was trying to force himself on her, and rather that he respects her. I guess that if she wanted to move on, he'd suffer a lot, he'd hate it and maybe do stupid things, but he'd eventually let her go. He seemed kind of depressed about it all.
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[> [> [> Complex love Triangles; Buffy is a Soap Opera! -- Drizzt, 09:21:05 09/19/01 Wed
Spike neads a girlfreind who likes poetry(Buffy does), and is not boreing like Harmony. Human or not if Spike has a love interest that "treats him like a man" and keeps him on edge more than the Buffybot did...he would not need Buffy. Would still love Buffy, wich is a love inspired by his human "William the Poet" side.

Triangles; Buffy/Xander/Willow Riley/Buffy/Spike Faith/Riley/Buffy...only for one day;) Willow/Xander/Anya Buffy/Spike/Buffybot...a few days?, chronology unknown between the body & intervention. Funerals will take time to organise. Joyce/Buffy/Giles Buffy/Dawn/Joyce

Love is complex and usually not romantic. Romantic interest by one party is unrequited or not noticed by the other party; Xander/Willow, Buffy/Xander...his crush turned into freindship and the image of himself as "big brother"(Restless)

Take it and run...
Buffy-verse as a reflection of the realverse -- Sheri, 21:17:12 09/18/01 Tue
By now, I'm sure that you have all discussed in great detail the many ways in which the trials and tribulations of being a teenager have been translated into evil and horrid demons.

But season 6 is to be the "Oh, grow up!" season... and so I presume that Joss will want the show to become a reflection of the trials and tribulations of the grown-up world. Well, there are some pretty awful things happening in our realverse, and I wonder if Buffy will be able to continue to reflect it... seams like the monsters in the Buffy-verse are cuddly little puppies in comparison to the monsters of the realverse.

So what will happen? Will a future Big Bad be a league of suicide-bomber demons whose only goal in life is to kill as many mortals as possible? Will they discuss the terrorist attack?--perhaps Buffy will lament the fact that she couldn't have been on all 4 planes simultaneously, kicking terrorist ass (I keep picturing them going *poof* just like a vampire). Maybe Anya will suggest using the most devastating weapon she knows of: bunnies! (I have a little fantasy that the CIA will use bunnies to assassinate Bin Laden. They'd sneak two bunnies into his compound... the bunnies will do what bunnies do--make sweet bunny love--and in a few months, the world headlines will read, "Bin Laden killed in fluffy bunny rabbit stampede!" I'm assuming that it will be very difficult for him to become a martyr after being killed by a bunch of bunnies.)

Sorry if I talked to much about the terrorists and not enough about Buffy! I know you guys want to get back to this board's focus, so hopefully this won't turn into an "All Threads Lead to Terrorism" post.
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[> Bin Laden killed in fluffy bunny rabbit stampede? LOL -- Drizzt, 22:23:35 09/18/01 Tue
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[> [> Fluffy Bunny Rabbits are the key! -- Sheri, 22:44:01 09/18/01 Tue
We could infiltrate all of the Afganistani dry cleaners... When Bin Laden takes his robes in for cleaning, we'll replace them with footed bunny pajamas... you know, the kind with the "trap door" in the back? I'm sure it would cause him to lose quite a few potential recruits...

I can see it now:

Bin Laden: Hi! I'm Osama Bin Laden. You may have heard of me from such terrorist attacks as the destruction of the World Trade Center or the bombing of the USS Cole.

Potential Recruit: sooo, rabbits, huh? Uh, what's up with that?

Bin Laden: Arrrrg!
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[> Bunnies definitely wield the true power in the Realverse...Even took down a President. -- A8, 23:16:50 09/18/01 Tue
Remember when Jimmy Carter was attacked by a bunny when he was on a fishing trip? The picture of him swingin' at that lagomorph with an oar made all the papers, and, well, no one took him seriously after that. Hostages shmostages...I'm convinced it was the rabbit in red (sorry, obscure Bugs reference) that prompted Carter's downfall.
The Master: 1st Anniversay Character Posting Party -- Kerri, 22:14:11 09/18/01 Tue
I.A Very Old Vampire

The Master is a very, very old vampire; there must be something about him that has enabled him to live so long. Therefore, we can use this to learn what makes a vampire (and thus also a slayer) strong.

Fear:

The Master is has been able to overcome fear, a force which holds back most people and vampires alike. He is able to face his fears and master(no pun intended) them. If fear is confronted it cannot control a person. The Master realizes that if he allows himself to be controlled by fear he will be weak. Most vampires and humans alike are held back by fear of death. The Master is clearly a very mentally strong vampire to be able to conquer such a powerful force.

MATER: Fear is a wonderful thing. It is *the* most powerful force in the human world. (crouches to face Collin) Not love, not hate... Fear! When you were a mortal boy, what did you fear?
COLLIN: Monsters.
MASTER: Ooo. (gets up) We are *defined* by the things we fear. (goes to the large cross) This symbol, these two planks of wood, it confounds me. Suffuses me with mortal dread. But fear is in the mind. (puts his hand on the cross and holds on while it burns) Like pain. It can be controlled. (lets go) If I can face my fear, it cannot master me. ~Nightmares

Have you ever noticed that villains tend to have a great deal of insight? Fear is incredibly powerful and rules most people. We see that this is true of Ben; he is willing to allow Dawn and the rest of the world to die because of his fear of death. Ben is a bit of a paradox: he is as Dawn says "a monster", but at the same time he is not entirely evil either: he is the ordinary person, and thus he demonstrates the monster that is possible within each individual. When the choice comes down to him or the world it is Ben's fear that rules him.

We have seen both Buffy, in PG, and Dawn, in The Gift, make the opposite choice that Ben did; they chose to sacrifice their lives to save the world. In both these cases the character is terrified of death but willing to but that aside to save the world (note: I do not include Buffy in The Gift in this category because when she died she was above fear-she only had love-but I'll get to that in a minute). Th`ey are mentally stronger and certainly more selfless then Ben is. By conquering her fear of death in PG Buffy no longer allowed herself to be controlled by fear.

As for The Master's assertion that fear is a more powerful force in the human world then love...I'm not sure. I think Buffy may have proven this false in The Gift.

FIRST SLAYER: You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.
BUFFY: (surprised) I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?
FIRST SLAYER: Only if you reject it. Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift.
~Intervention

Buffy overcomes her fear of love and embraces it fully. It is through this love that Buffy is able to die peacefully and with only love-not fear-in her heart; love prevails in Buffy. This is, however, what makes Buffy a God-like figure at the end of The Gift. The Master calls fear the most powerful force in the human world, but when Buffy is standing on the tower she is not a part of the human world-she is a part of something more.

Emotions:

Angelus: "I'm not gonna get a bat-nose like that, huh? Am I?"
Master: "Very few vampires are cunning enough to have lived as long as I have - which you've now (The Master grabs Angelus by the front of his coat and throws him across the room) demonstrated."
Darla flinches as Angelus slides down the wall. Laughing, he gets back up, and keeps talking to Darla as if the Master wasn't even there.
Angelus: "Naples, you and me Darla. What do you say?"
The Master hits him with a hard right throwing him back against the wall.
Darla: "Angelus..."
Angelus just pushes himself off the wall and goes on as if nothing had happened: "This is no place for you - bound to the likes of him."
Master: "You should show (Master hits Angelus over the head, dropping him to the ground) the proper respect."
Angelus, now on all fours and breathing hard, still ignores the Master and talks only to Darla.
Angelus: "You belong by my side - out in the world - feeding as we like - taking what we need. I'll give you that view you crave, darling. I'll give you everything."
The Master knocks Angelus over onto his back. Angelus coughs than laughs again. Lifts his head to look at Darla.
Angelus: "Tell the truth - whose face do you want to look at for eternity? (Rolls over on his side) His - or mine?"
Master smiles down at Angelus: "You idiot. I *made* her."
Darla smiles at Angelus and he smiles back at her. The Master's smile fades and he turns to look at Darla.
Master: "You're leaving with the stallion, aren't you?"
Darla walks over to Angelus and helps him up. Angelus puts an arm around her shoulders and pulls her close and the two of them turn to leave. One of the Master's minions growls and blocks their path.
Master with his back to them: "No. Let them go. (He lets them pass) He won't last. I give it a century - tops."
~Darla

The Master seems to have found a balance between allowing his emotions to rule him and denying them completely. This balance is demonstrated in the above scene in which The Master uses his anger to hurt Angelus, but does not let his emotions rule him. It is easy for emotions to completely rule a person since they have such a great deal of power. The Master can keep his anger under control and not let it dominate him to a point where he loses control over himself. Angelus: (narrates) It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank... Without passion, we'd be truly dead.
~ Passion

Kendra: Emotions are weakness, Buffy. You shouldn't entertain dem.
Buffy: Kendra, my emotions give me power. They're total assets!
~WML2

Buffy tells Kendra that emotions give her power. It seems that one of the reasons she is such a strong slayer is that Buffy uses her emotions to fuel her fighting; she has learned how to control her emotions and use them to her benefit. Love, hate, lust-they all give power and strength, and we have seen that when they are capitalized on they make their possessor stronger. There have several examples of this in the past. Buffy's love for Dawn gives her added strength to fight Glory. Faith's lust for the kill drives her. Angelus' hatred for Buffy making him feel human gives him focus. Willow becomes stronger after Glory hurts Tara.

While We're Discussing The Master's Age...:

Master: Hmm. (gets up) I am weary, and their deaths will bring me little joy.
~Angel

After all those years you have to expect that The Master is pretty tired of everything, I mean he is stuck underground-not a lot of excitement there. All those years caught between the world of the living and the world of the dead. It is the hope of one day being free that keeps The Master going. Without this hope, IMO, The Master would most definitely have a death wish.

Master: Bring me something... young.
~WttH

Maybe this desire for "something young" is an attempt to take the essence, the optimism, the energy, from the victim. After all, that's what a vampire does when they drink a person's blood- they take their life, their essence, their being.

II.About The Master and Vampires:

The Master may also be able to help us reveal some key information about the nature of vampires.

Vampire: How much human? How much animal?:

It seems that there are two components to a vampire: the human aspect(minus the soul) and the demon. In Through the Looking Glass we see that the demon aspect of the vampire isn't a malicious killer; it is a mindless animal that acts on impulse. The malicious killer is what is formed when the human that has lost its soul is given the super-natural abilities and the blood-thirsty impulses of the demon.

Darla: "The Master has grown past the curse of human features."
Angelus: "I'm not gonna get a bat-nose like that, huh? Am I?"
Master: "Very few vampires are cunning enough to have lived as long as I have - which you've now (The Master grabs Angelus by the front of his coat and throws him across the room) demonstrated."
~Darla

The Master has lived so long that he no longer retains his physical human features. The Master has both lost some aspects of his humanity and embraced others. The Master has a need for control and power, in trying to obtain this power he represses his animal side and his desire to hunt.

The Master embraces the human ideas of order and government. We see this in The Wish, where The Master has devised a way to eliminate the hunting aspect of feeding. For many vampires it is not simply about needing the blood to stay alive; it is about the joy of the hunt and the satisfaction of the kill. The Master represses this desire for the hunt and replaces it with order.

In order to embrace order to obtain power The Master needs to repress his human emotions as much as he needs to repress his animal desires. Darla and Angelus both use killing as a means of obtaining revenge against what they hated about their mortal selves and their mortal lives. The Master is able to suppress this need for vengeance as well as some of his other human emotions in the quest for power.

The Role of the Sire:

Darla: "The* Master. He commands out order." Master: "*The order of Aurelius. We are the select - the elite."

It seems to be insinuated that there is something in the blood line that makes these vampires stronger. Does this mean that a person's sire has an impact on their ferocity, strength, personality as a vampire?

Who was he?:

Who was The Master before he was "The Master"? We know it is the person the vampire was before s/he "died" that defines who their vampire self is. Unfortunately we know nothing about The Master before he was vamped. Why is he so bent on control, order, and power? Maybe as a human he had little power and his life was out of control? Who knows? Any guess would be purely speculation. It, of course, would help a lot, when analyzing any vampire to know about his/her human self, however, unfortunately we aren't so lucky when looking at The Master. My guess about why we know so little about The Master is that he is meant less as a character to be analyzed for who he is and more for the implications he has on the other characters as well as his symbolic role in the Buffyverse. Which leads us to...

III.Season 1 Big Bad/The Master and Prophecy Girl:

The Master is BtVS's first Big Bad. He is a less complex and morally ambiguous character than the Big Bads of later seasons, which is fitting for the shorter, introductory season. The Master doesn't have the emotional connection to Buffy that Angelus had, he doesn't have the temptation that Faith had, or the great moral dilemma associated with Glory. He instead is used by the writers as a tool to help develop the new characters, primarily our favorite hero: Buffy.

What exactly makes Buffy our favorite hero? We see her go through many tests and trials along her journey, and as we watch her struggle and eventually best the obstacles in her path we learn about Buffy as she learns about herself.

The Master serves to provide the first major trial, or the crossing of the first threshold as described by Campbell, we see Buffy overcome: her fear of death. As with all seasons to date the season one finale includes a battle with the season's Big Bad in which Buffy must learn about herself and grow as a person in order to accomplish her goal.

The Master plays a role in Prophecy Girl much like that of Glory in The Gift; he serves as a necessary figure in order to set up a situation that will help to define Buffy and the other Scoobies.

Prophecies In The Buffyverse:

GILES: Listen. Some prophecies are, are a bit dodgy. They're, they're mutable. Buffy herself has, has thwarted them time and time again, but this is the Codex. There is nothing in it that does not come to pass.
ANGEL: Then you're reading it wrong.
GILES: I wish to God I were! But it's very plain! Tomorrow night Buffy will face the Master, and she will die. ~Prophecy Girl

Are free will and prophecies mutually exclusive? Buffy makes her choice-she decides to fight The Master -it is a conscious decision in which she exercises free will. It is simply that her decision is foretold by someone who has the power to see into the future. This does not mean that Buffy has no choice in what she will do, only that someone already knows what choice she will make.

The idea of choice and its importance to self is part of existentialism. Choice is important to Buffy; it is her choices that define her. While BtVS includes prophecies and higher powers it also embraces the existential philosophy that people have control over their choices and that is what shapes them.

WHISTLER: Bottom line is, even if you see 'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments. No one asks for their life to change, not really. But it does. So what are we, helpless? Puppets? No. The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are. ~B1

This speech explains to us that while we may not have control over events that happen in our lives, whether they are determined by a higher power or simply by chance, that we do have control over our choices, and these choices are what defines us as people.

FAITH: Oh yeah? Give me the speech again, please. Faith, we're still your friends. We can help you. It's not too late.
WILLOW: It's way too late. You know, it didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo! Poor you. You know, you had a lot more in your life than some people. I mean, you had friends in your life like Buffy. Now you have no one. You were a Slayer and now you're nothing. You're just a big selfish, worthless waste. ~Choices:

Again the idea that there *is* a choice. Buffy is the Slayer but she has a choice of how to deal with that. Faith turned her back on her duty and on good. Sure, Buffy was given a responsibility, but it was her choice to accept this burden and to give her life for the "good fight".

We see in The Wish that Buffy is once again killed by The Master, however the prophecy seems slightly altered. In PG there is a specific date, or at least specific circumstances that lead Giles to that date, when Buffy will be killed. However she dies at a different time in The Wish. So was the prophecy changed in this new reality? Did the prophesier see a different death for Buffy?

Slayer's Blood:

MASTER: You tried. It was noble of you. You heard the prophecy that I was about to break free and you came to stop me. But prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything. (whispers) You're the one that sets me free! (gloats) If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. (whispers) Think about that!
Buffy is frozen with fear. The Master waits a moment longer and then bends down and bites her at the base of her neck. He drinks a few sips and lets her go.
MASTER: Oh, God! The power!
Buffy falls to her knees.
MASTER: And by the way...
She falls face down into the pool of water.
MASTER: I like your dress.
He steps over to the edge of his confines and pushes against the field. He forces his hand through, and his confines break down in a burst of light and energy. He starts up and out of his lair. ~Prophecy Girl

We learn that Slayer's blood has special properties and strength within it. This is further confirmed in GD1:

OZ: The only way to cure this thing is to drain the blood of a Slayer.

We also learn that blood seems to contain a person's essence or life.

SPIKE: 'Cause its always got to be blood. XANDER: We're not actually discussing dinner right now. SPIKE: Blood is life, lackbrain. Why do you think we eat it? It keeps you going. Makes you warm. Makes you hard. Makes you other than dead. (Quietly) Course it's her blood. ~The Gift

Blood contains what each individual is; therefore, since slayer's blood has powers in it, we can conclude the slayer is an essential part of Buffy, which is reaffirmed for us in The Replacement.

Buffy and The Master:

Cut outside. Buffy marches determinedly toward the school with Xander and Angel close behind.
XANDER: So, how do you know where the Master's going?
BUFFY: I know.
~Prophecy Girl

How exactly does Buffy know where The Master is? Does she now have a connection to him? Has she tapped into some more of her slayer powers following her death? Slayers and vampires seem to be connected, perhaps by origin (Dracula calls Buffy "kindred"). In WttH Giles tells Buffy that she should be able to sense a vampire's presence-is she beginning to develope this ability? A part of Buffy is now in The Master-maybe she can sense that.

Cut to the roof. Buffy slowly approaches the Master, apparently hypnotized. He grabs her by the throat again.
MASTER: Did you really think you could best me here when you couldn't below? (lets go of her neck)
BUFFY: (looks at him curiously) You have fruit punch mouth.
MASTER: What? She swings a wide hard punch to his mouth, and he falls down.
BUFFY: Save the hypnosis crap for the tourists.
~Prophecy Girl

The Master loses his power over Buffy, just as her fear does. She is set free. Buffy is mentally stronger, and thus cannot be hypnotized.

Buffy's Character Development In PG:

When Buffy first hears about the prophecy she quits, telling Giles she doesn't care if The Master rises. We see Buffy scared, paralyzed (understandably so) by her fear of death. Buffy puts aside her fears and is willing to sacrifice her life for the world. She accepts her duty as the Slayer and goes to fight The Master; as prophesied The Master kills Buffy who is revived shortly after by Xander.

Xander and Angel help Buffy up.
XANDER: Easy. Easy.
BUFFY: (standing now) The Master?
ANGEL: He's gone up.
Buffy starts to go.
XANDER: No. You're still weak.
BUFFY: (stops) No. No, I feel strong. I feel different. (looks back at them) Let's go!
~Prophecy Girl

Yes, I know this has been discussed to death. There are lot's of different meanings that this last line could have; on the most basic, not speculatory level Buffy is changed because she has overcome her fear. Buffy was able to give up her life for the world and was changed by doing so. Is Buffy still the slayer now? Is she something more? We really don't know. Perhaps if we are lucky one day Joss will explain it all.

After PG we have a better understanding of Buffy's character (as well as the character of Xander, Willow, Giles, and Angel), which is now immensely deeper than prior to this episode. We see Buffy's reaction to the prophecy and her actions after she returns to Sunnydale the previous season. She is just a girl, frightened and scared; we can relate to her. But at the same time we realize just how extraordinary Buffy is; she is selfless and brave. To quote what Dedalus wrote in his essay "The Mythology and Magic of Buffy the Vampire Slayer", "Buffy is not what we are, rather what-in our best moments-we strive to be."

At the end of Buffy's encounters with The Master our hero has developed and grown, and we have come to understand her better. Thus, The Master has accomplished what was perhaps his main purpose.

IV. The Symbolism of The Master:

As I discussed in the previous section The Master is used as a tool by the writers. Along with his use in character development and the hero's journey, The Master also serves as a symbolic figure the way many characters in BtVS do.

Part of the Adolescence Metaphor:

Joss himself has said many times that on one level Buffy is a metaphor for adolescence, andThe Master plays an important role in this theme.

The Master can be seen as representing authority. He is powerful, and holds dominion over the vampires in his order. These vampires are afraid of The Master and his power and are willing to bow to The Master out of this dread Buffy is told what to do-it is written that she will die. It is through acceptance of what must be that Buffy can rise above this. The Master can be seen, as representing a societal force that trys to prevent a person from reaching her/his goals.

The Master is a loss of innocence for Buffy; one of the many that we will observe to coincide with the losses in a typical person's life. Buffy's death can be seen as the death of her child-self.

Rape:

Traditional vampire tales often portray the victim being bitten as a symbol for rape. The Master biting Buffy can be viewed in the same way; Buffy's innocence is being stolen from her by The Master just as it was by her calling as the Slayer.

*****

Well, that's pretty much it. Looking forward to hearing everyone's ideas and comments.

~Kerri

*All quotes from Psyche's Transcripts
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[> Thanks Kerri....... -- Rufus, 23:16:43 09/18/01 Tue
I see the Master as the old giving way to the new. His ideas are stagnant. His power is only as good as his minions, and the vampires are losing their will to wait for the old ones. They like the world and identify with the comforts of humanity. The Master was a bit over the top and Angel pointed that fact out to him. Instead of being content to wait out the old ones in a sewer, the newer vampires exist along side of their prey, enjoying all the creature comforts of humanity. I found it of interest that Angel was concerned about getting a bat face like the Master. If human features are a curse, and you can't see your own reflection, then why care? Angel didn't care about rising and wiping out the pestilance of humanity, he wanted them around to play with. The Master was an authority figure that Angel didn't like in life so why follow one in death. Buffy feared death more than the Master. Once death had been defeated, she was ready to deal with the Master on equal ground. Buffy won because she trancended fear, The Master lost because he was so arrogant that he never took a fearless Slayer into consideration.

Enjoyed your essay.....:):)
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[> [> Re: Thanks Kerri....... -- Kerri, 06:17:59 09/19/01 Wed
Thanks Rufus. Interesting points about old vs. new and stagnent vs. changing. It is interesting to me that given his ideas being so unchanging The Master has been able to live so long. He must have in some way been able to adapt with the time, become accostomed to the new ways or he would never survive. I guess this is made a bit easier by refusing to live with the humans-who repressent change and growth.
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[> Re: The Master: 1st Anniversay Character Posting Party -- Marie, 02:10:40 09/19/01 Wed
Great post, Kerri. Whenever I read one of these posts, I find myself wanting to go back and see the relevant episodes, which I sit and watch with great feelings of nostalgia! Like policemen, they (Buffy & Co.) seem to get younger all the time!

The Master was such a great character (it was a glimpse of him in 'Nightmares' that first got me hooked) - an 'old school' villain; ugly and nasty and powerful, and his anger boiled ("Tonight I shall walk the earth, and the stars themselves shall hide!" - what a fabulous line - you just can't imagine anyone else saying it, can you?). After him came the Mayor - who looked normal, but was so coldly evil. Not counting Angelus, these two, to me, were the most interesting Big Bads on BtVS. The seasons with Adam and Glory, I think, were devoted not so much to them as to the relationships (both falling apart and developing) of the Scoobies themselves, not a bad thing in and of itself, but I never felt the threat from Adam and Glory that the Master just oozed from every pore.

Also, who can forget that scene when Buffy pulverises the Master's bones with the sledgehammer? Great stuff!

Marie
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[> Re: The Master: 1st Anniversay Character Posting Party -- LadyStarlight, 06:15:19 09/19/01 Wed
Good job, Kerri. I haven't (yet) seen all of S1, but everything still made sense to me.
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[> Re: The Master: 1st Anniversay Character Posting Party -- Unknown Lurker, 07:17:01 09/19/01 Wed
This is my first post having lurked for the last 3 months. I thought I'd comment on what or who the Master was when he was human.

In Darla we see the Master visit the unnamed woman who will become Darla, in the guise of a priest. I think it entirely possible that the Master was a man of the cloth prior to becoming a vampire. It would certainly appeal to a vampire's sense of humour to visit his victim in this role. It would offer a sense of irony. We know that Angel took the place of a priest to hear Drusilla's confessions of impure thoughts in Becoming Prt 1. Also the Master was always prone to long sermon like speeches to his minions. The sermon on fear that he preaches to Colin (mentioned early in your essay) is prime example.

In any event, I would love for Joss to show more of the Masters back story at some point in the future as I always enjoy Mark Metcalf's wonderfully hammy performances.

Anyway, good stuff.
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[> [> Welcome to the board! -- Kerri, 07:42:40 09/19/01 Wed
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[> [> Unknown Lurker...say hello to Lurker Becomeing Restless:-) -- Drizzt, 09:38:09 09/19/01 Wed
LBR delurked with that name and KEPT ON posting as that...he he.

I agree the Master was interesting; just a little flashback on the Angel show could explain a little of his back story.

Remember the Pyramid Scheme Vamp? He liked big televangelist type speaches, funny episode.
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[> Re: The Master: 1st Anniversay Character Posting Party -- Wisewoman, 20:29:04 09/19/01 Wed
Very nice job, Kerri. I really appreciated the time you took to delve into the various aspects of the first "big bad."
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[> coupla questions -- anom, 21:48:41 09/19/01 Wed
"The Master has lived so long that he no longer retains his physical human features."

Is that why? Do vampires age, just more slowly (& differently) than humans? My take on the Master's & Kakistos' features in relation to their age was originally that they originated at a time when demon features were stronger, i.e., they had looked that way all along. After all, Darla was almost half the Master's age, & she certainly showed no sign of looking other than human.

"XANDER: No. You're still weak. BUFFY: (stops) No. No, I feel strong. I feel different"

I've seen this quoted before on the board & wondered if it's from the transcript of the show that aired or from the shooting script? I haven't seen it since the last time it reran, but my memory seems quite clear that what Buffy said was, "No, I feel good. (nods) Strong." I don't have it on tape-- can anyone confirm?
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[> [> Re: coupla questions -- John Burwood, 13:10:14 09/20/01 Thu
I have checked the published script book - it quotes Buffy's line as "No, I'm not. I feel strong. I feel... different." I have also just played back the tape and she said "No. No, I feel strong. I feel different."
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[> [> Re: coupla questions -- Kerri, 16:13:08 09/20/01 Thu
About your first question-Darla tells Angel that "the Master has grown past the curse of human features." which I took to mean that he had at one point when he was a vmap had human characteristics. You could be right that when the Master was turned the demon was somehow stronger or different. As for Darla being nearly half the Master's age I really got no indication of his actual age(of course I could have missed it). As for Kaskistos, Giles said something like "a vampire so old his hands are cloven"(complete paraphrase-not sure of the actual quote. So I think, at least in part, age has something to do with it.
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[> [> [> thanks, JB & Kerri -- anom, 21:15:18 09/20/01 Thu
Kerri: "As for Kaskistos, Giles said something like 'a vampire so old his hands are cloven'(complete paraphrase-not sure of the actual quote. So I think, at least in part, age has something to do with it."

Agreed, but it's not clear how. It could be something that happened as he got older, or it could mean he's so old he goes back to a time when vampires resembled humans less & had cloven hands. Re the Master's age vs. Darla's, someone says in the 1st season that the Master is supposed to be >1,000 years old, but it's not treated as a definite fact. (Or I could be remembering wrong; see below.) We do know Darla is about 400 years old, which was my basis for saying she was close to 1/2 the Master's age.

John Burwood:

Thanks for checking the quote from Prophecy Girl. I guess it's been long enough I didn't remember it right.
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[> Re: Exxxccceellent stuff, Kerri - Makes me kinda miss the guy. -- Dedalus, 16:30:04 09/21/01 Fri
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[> Post on the Master after the FX reruns!! -- Masq, 10:34:50 09/24/01 Mon


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