September 2001 posts
Giles would know what to do! -- Maple,
00:48:57 09/13/01 Thu
He choked the life out of Ben. Even though Ben was basically innocent. Giles did what he had to
do.
For he knows that it is better to do evil than be evil.
To escape sin may be the utimate guilt.
We don't need another "hero" right now. We need our Wesleys. We need our Giles!
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[> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Kerri, 15:08:49 09/13/01 Thu
I don't know. Honestly, all the talk of bombing other countries for revenge disturbs me greatly. How
can we possibly take innocent lives after seeing all the pain of tuesday? How can we kill our fellow
man?
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[> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Dedalus, 15:49:38 09/13/01 Thu
"How can we kill our fellow man?"
Quite easily. It's a lot faster and easier to do so than actually come to the realization that we're all
family. This is just the inherent danger of the fundamentalist, absolutist approach to life. It gets
people killed. Always has, always will.
Like I said on another post, if everyone in the world would just sit down and watch The Power of
Myth, most of this crap would take care of itself. It wouldn't do any harm for them to calm down and
listen to some George Carlin routines once in awhile, too.
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[> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Sue, 17:10:52 09/13/01 Thu
Not revenge. But people need to know that it can't happen here.
Glory wasn't stopped by kind words and understanding!
I guess it doesn't matter to you because you don't know anyone personally who was effected. But the
luxuries that you enjoy, including this bulletin board came as a result of the sacrifice of brave men
and women who gave everything.
I happened to see Pearl Harbor a month ago. And the death toll from this was far more than it was
there.
I am glad that back then there wasn't people like you saying how we must "understad"
why they attacked us. We must not stoop to the level of the Japanese and declare war on them. After
all Dolittle bombing Japan, that was about revenge wasn't it?
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[> [> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Sue, 17:19:50 09/13/01 Thu
Actually, the way some people are today, they would demand that we apologize to Japan for our
ships hitting the Japanese torpedoes.
That anyone would even suggest that we "understand" this is SICK!
We must send a Message. NEVER AGAIN! There must be a price paid. You do not mess with me and
mine!
The Buffy season final said it all. It is GILES TIME!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Actually, Ripper Time would be more appropriate. -- Dedalus, 18:30:33
09/13/01 Thu
"Actually, the way some people are today, they would demand that we apologize to Japan for
our ships hitting the Japanese torpedoes."
Ha! Kudos, Sue. That was fabulous.
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[> [> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Kerri, 19:32:52 09/13/01 Thu
"I guess it doesn't matter to you because you don't know anyone personally who was effected.
But the luxuries that you enjoy, including this bulletin board came as a result of the sacrifice of
brave men and women who gave everything."
How can you say that this doesn't matter to me? Ofcourse it does! It should matter to everyone! I'm
not saying that who ever's responsible shouldn't be punished-they should with out a doubt! I was just
saying that the appropriate action is not to kill more innocent people. If we learn anything from this
it should be not to cause this pain to others!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Maple, 19:38:17 09/13/01 Thu
I guess we shouldn't have declared war against Hitler then. I mean sure he is bad, but if we declare
war against him, well, we are just lowering ourselves to his level.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re:? -- Darrick, 20:44:56 09/13/01 Thu
Really Maple, WWII was a situation in which the enemy was clearly defined, and failure to act would
be the fall of all our allies and the rise of a repugnant poltical system. And even then we waited until
we had no other choice before becoming involved in the war. The reason (more or less) is that war is
a terrible thing and no one in their right mind gets into it without a damned good reason. To my
mind, the WTC/Pentagon attack does constitute such a reason. But that doesn't mean we get
involved in the _kind_ of war that WWII was.
This situation is more fluid and shadowy, and it is not at all clear who all of our enemies are, nor
what our exact policy should be. Surgical strike, commando raid, war to destroy all countries that
harbor terrorists, diplomacy... Some or all of these tools may be used. Innocents will certainly be
killed in whatever retaliation comes, but comparing this situation to pursuing war against Nazi
Germany is oversimplifying to a degree. Doing nothing for fear of hurting innocents is against our
national interests since our enemies clearly set a low value for innocent life. However, we can and
should attempt to determine a proper level of force, rather than going all out as we did during WWII,
unless that is the only option. Given the nature of our enemy, advances in technology, and the global
nature of the problem, that kind of total war might be ill-advised.
I think Kerri is just questioning whether all-out war is either necessary or warranted to achieve the
goal of punishing for these attacks and deterring further such incidents. I don't know myself.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re:30 Thousand -- Sean, 21:15:18 09/13/01 Thu
September 11, 2001 changed everything.
Before that date we were awaiting the new season of Buffy, of Angel.
I am from Seattle. I am a Seattle Mariners fan. Tuesday night they could have won the American
League West.
I was eagerly awaiting the Lord of the Rings Movie. Harry Potter as well.
But all of that seems trival now. All of that junk really doesn't matter. I couldn't care less about any
of that now. I really don't care about the Mariners, or about Harry Potter, or any of that at this
moment.
My Nation is at War. My Cities have been attacked. 30 Thousand Americans (the size of a small city)
are dead.
This isn't Hollywood. Not a scene from Independence Day. It is as real as a heartattack. It is as real
as it gets.
We have seen so many "false" images on our televisons. Lucus Flims, Dreamworks, ect.
We have "seen" dinosaurs walk the earth. A "space ship" the size of a small
planet blow up. We all saw "Die Hard". We can no longer distinquish real from fiction.
We have become numb to it. It's all the same.
Well the people who were jumping from the world trade building were not stuntmen. There will not
be any "making of the World Trade disaster" segment on any Dvd showing the
storyboards, or deleted "scenes".
We are at war. This is as real as it gets.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:30 Thousand -- Darrick, 21:31:12 09/13/01 Thu
Sean, I'm afraid you're starting to ramble. Believe me when I say I realize all of these things. You
sound quite young, and understandibly distraught. But the onset of war doesn't mean you stop
thinking. In fact, it means you start thinking really goddamned hard. And pray you're thinking
better than whatever state (or in this case organizations) you are preparing for war against.
Again, where are you getting this 30,000 number? While there are a monstrous number of people
dead, and I don't want to get into some kind of macabre contest, this seems highly inflated. I pray it's
highly inflated. Perhaps if you actually read my post our dialogue might improve.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:30 Thousand -- Sean, 21:51:17 09/13/01 Thu
Monday night, I went to bed.
Everything was normal.
Tuesday morning, I awoke to a nation at war.
Peace allows us to at times have some very muddled "philosophical" thinking. But when
you are in the midst of it, all that junk is thrown out of the window.
It is either us or them. You do what it takes to achieve victory.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> number of dead -- spotjon, 06:29:19 09/14/01 Fri
I think the 30,000 count comes from the number of body bags shipped to New York. Obviously
they're acquiring more body bags than they think they'll need, since they won't want a shortage. But
also -- and this will be a little grim -- they will probably need more than one body bag per body, since
they won't all be in one piece. Not a happy thought.
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[> [> Re: Giles would know what to do! -- Karen, 18:45:30 09/13/01 Thu
My Father killed innocent people.
He killed mothers, children, little babies.
He was a bombardier. And he dropped terror down on German cities, killing many people who might
have never even wanted war. Who were never members of the Nazi party. Who might have even
opposed what Hitler stood for.
He dropped bombs that killed innocent people. Do I consider him a villian? A evil man? Do I
condemn what he did?
NO. HE IS MY HERO! He did what he had to do. I thank him and all the others who served in World
War II for doing what they did.
Too many people today take their freedoms for granted. They laugh at or even spit upon people who
gave their all to protect the rest of us. I have even seen it on this board where people critized Buffy
for (god forbid) slaying Vampires (I guess it would have been better if she just allowed them to use
the citizens of Sunnydale as human happy meals).
I pray for the souls lost this week. And I pray for victory against the REAL LIFE monsters who
attacked this country in an act of WAR!
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[> [> [> Re: People on this board criticized Buffy for slaying vampires? -- Dedalus, 18:59:24
09/13/01 Thu
Well, my father was in Korea, but he didn't kill any innocent people, he just drove an
ambulance.
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[> [> [> [> Re: People on this board criticized Buffy for slaying vampires? -- Karen,
19:18:25 09/13/01 Thu
Someone had to fight that war.
What would you have done against Hitler?
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[> [> [> [> Re: People on this board criticized Buffy for slaying vampires? -- Karen,
19:27:57 09/13/01 Thu
And, yes, they criticized Buffy for slaying vampires.
You can go back and search the archives.
I am glad your father was an ambulance driver in Korea. They provide a very important role and
save many lives.
But wars aren't won by ambulance drivers.
I am getting a little offended here. What our soliders did in Korea and WWII should be
respected!
This attack on those who defeated Hitler doesn't only offend me, but it is an offence of all my Dad's
buddies who didn't make it home!
It is because of them that you are now sitting in your cozy little home attacking them!
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[> [> [> I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Kerri, 19:37:35 09/13/01
Thu
Yes, in the real world innocent people do die-that's war. And sadly, that is how it has to be. But I just
think that if there is anyother way we should keep from killing any more innocent people. I value all
innocent lives equally-be they americans, america's allies, or a citizen of a rival country. we are all
humans. we need to come together now-not fall apart. it is the time for american pride and unity. it
is also the time for pride and unity among humanity.
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[> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Maple, 19:40:58
09/13/01 Thu
There is no other way.
We are in a state of war.
And there are sides. You have to choose.
Either you are with us, or you are against us.
There is no middle ground. This is war.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Kerri, 19:44:30
09/13/01 Thu
By the way, Kerri. What you have seen the last few days isn't a movie. That plane crashing into the
tower wasn't a model, nor did they use CGI technology.
There were no stuntmen. These aren't actors. They won't be back in another movie.
30,000 real people are really dead. This is as real as it gets.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Karen,
19:53:05 09/13/01 Thu
I posted the last response. Sorry for the error in the name.
I am just glad Kerri wasn't around Dec 8, 1941. She would have been so concerned for all the poor
Japanese and Germans that Mean Olde FDR was about to Kill!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying --
Darrick, 20:23:18 09/13/01 Thu
Karen, World War II was mostly a classic nation state vs. nation state conflict. The entire military,
cultural, and industrial might of all participants was geared towards total war. This meant that
civilians became targets, in and of themselves, due to their working and living in cities and
industrial areas.
Today, the situation is quite different. Conditions of total war do not exist. Afghanistan is a war-torn
shell of a country. Many other terrorist-supporting nations are similiarly riven by internal strife.
Assuming the Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks, and assuming that the U.S and our allies
will be challenging all nations that harbor terrorists, we must be prudent in our use of force. The
kind of indiscriminate bombing that went on during WWII was a function of the kind of war being
fought and the technology used to fight it. To my mind, we should attempt to use the minimum
amount of force to achieve our goals, as long as it gets the job done and minimizes the risk to our
armed forces. I wouldn't want our soldiers killed because they were being hamstrung by political
considerations. On the other hand I also don't want many thousands of civilians killed in the name of
justice. The two goals may be mutually exclusive, but all avenues should at least be explored before
we err on the side of overkill. Without putting words in her mouth, I think this is what Kerri
meant.
I think a campaign to force nations that support terrorism to cease that practice might be adviseable,
and civilian casualties are inevitable. But comparisons to WWII and the justification for total war
seem flawed to me. I don't argue restraint for purely humanitarian reasons, but also to maintain int'l
goodwill and support. I believe maintaining whatever coalition we form will be of great import in
restraining (but probably not eliminating) the threat of terrorism. All in my opinion, of course.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying --
Sean, 20:50:33 09/13/01 Thu
Time for "opinion" is over.
30 thousand Americans dead.
A time for choosing. Whose side are you on?
We are at war right now. The only question is who will survive?
Us or them.
Perhaps you want more Americans to die. As an American, that would make you my enemy.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was
saying -- Darrick, 21:07:01 09/13/01 Thu
Again, this is a time for cold, calculating reason. It is precisely because I don't want any more
Americans to die that I feel we need to examine all of our options for reprisal carefully. Notice I do
not claim that we should not retaliate as soon as we decide what our goals should be.
"Us or them."
Who do you mean by "them"? If it's the terrorists and the governments that support
them then I tend to agree with you. If you mean "them" in a more general case then it
may be a matter for closer consideration.
Where did you get the 30,000 dead figure? Not that it matters, but all estimates I've heard are much
lower.
Our survival, as a nation, is not in question. America has survived difficult times, and we will
continue to do so(unless, perhaps, there is widespread use of some extremely dangerous biological
weapon). We will survive regardless. What we want is security while at the same time maintaining
our fundemental liberties. Hopefully we can strike a balance.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I
was saying -- Sean, 21:20:15 09/13/01 Thu
Do you know of anyone who was alive during the 1940's?
Perhaps you could visit a retirement center.
They could explain to you what it means to live in a nation at war. Everything else is secondary.
Everyone is united and focused on victory.
We are at war. Nothing is what is was Monday night.
We can't be thinking like we were last week. Sacrifices must be made. Is this generation up to the
task?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood
what I was saying -- Darrick, 21:23:51 09/13/01 Thu
Sean, I tend to agree with much of what you just wrote. What is it about what I wrote that
contradicts what you are saying? I'm just curious. In any conflict you have a range of options. You
choose the option that best serves the national interest. That is all I am saying. Total war is not the
end all and be all in this case.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people
misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 21:27:55 09/13/01 Thu
It is refreshing to find out that we are on the same side.
What you must understand is that we can't worry about "innocent civilians" getting
killed in other countries when we attack them.
"Innocent civilians" will die. That is the nature of war. Can't sugarcoat it. They will
die.
Can this generation cope with that? We must or perish.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people
misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 21:39:36 09/13/01 Thu
Sean,
I have already stated, at length, that we will have to accept the death of innocent civilians(without
quotations). The question is one of degree. Try not to become overly alarmist and irrational. This is a
much different conflict than WWII, and looking at it as the same will be very frustrating. As I said,
coping with terrorism will be a process of years and much of it will be done behind the scenes and in
the shadows, not on the battlefield. Comparing the coming conflict to the WWII will lead to some
false conclusions.
By the way, chalking up civilian casualties to the "nature of war" is certainly accurate
but it doesn't tell the whole tale. By our actions, we may (or may not) be able to influence what the
final result is. Clearly, carpet bombing a populated city might disrupt our coalition in the Gulf. On
the other hand, perhaps it will be a military necessity. These are the questions I'm talking about
that will come up inevitably. It's not just a matter of sparing innocents but preserving what promises
to be a very fragile patchwork of alliances. Alliances we will need if we hope to launch a military
operation in and around the Afghanistan region.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people
misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean, 21:47:01 09/13/01 Thu
It is hard to call these people "innocent" as they dance in the streets.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Methinks we
have a troll aboard. -- Marie, 04:14:52 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry!
Should've carried on reading before I posted! -- Marie, 04:32:54 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: -- MC,
09:59:04 09/14/01 Fri
Those people that you saw dancing in the street were born and grew up in camps, where they were
reduced to poverthy and denied freedom and any kind of education like the one you hopefully
received. They are trapped because of the sanctions the american government applies on them to
punish their government,without disturbing it in anyway, and which they never elected. They are
innocents who probably see death on a regular basis, they have not much of an education and what
they hear everyday is that it is because of the americans. So it is completely understandable, if you
take the human angle, that their first reaction was to cheer at the sight of death being on the
american side for once. Also, remember that the people you saw were part of a small group and not
the voice of the majority of the people you seem to want to bomb.
Now I know all of your argumentation about how this being war and innocent inevitably being killed,
I just think you guys are all beside the point. Instead of arguing about the nature of war, we should
ask ourselves on the nature of terrorism and weither war can really fight it. Terrorism is a terrible,
absurd, fanatic act that should never exist. But it is more and more present, why? Because it borns
from oppression, lack of education, lack of any other resources and desperation. Those guys who
hijacked the planes died, they knew they would die but they did it because in their minds, they had
nothing to lose and everything to win.
What matters to me is not how the people responsible for this terrible act will be punished. But what
will happen next. Wheiter or not the government will be smart enough to analyse the situation that
lead to this event see (maybe, just maybe) that little part of responsibility that they have.
Responsibility in the past, responsibility in the future.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Osama
Bin Laden is hardly oppressed... -- A8, 12:04:48 09/14/01 Fri
..he is an educated, elitist Saudi Arabian millionaire whose family lives a jet set life of privilege
while millions of his fellow Muslims live in abject poverty. He recruits from the mentally ill, the
spiritually misguided, and, yes, the truly oppressed and disgruntled.
He has spent the bulk of his fortune trying to acquire nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons with
the only goal of inflicting mass destruction on anyone (other Muslims included) who does not meet
his personal standard of "Islamic Purity." He is a Hitler, a Stalin, a Charles Manson who
is too cowardly to engage in the fight himself so he manipulates the weak-willed to fulfill his own
personal hunger for power and glory. His gripe, like very megalomaniac in history, though cloaked in
religious and/or patriotic rhetoric, is that nobody has paid enough attention to him or bestowed on
him the power he feels he so rightly deserves. He trains and encourages others to commit suicide (a
"no-no" in most religions, Islam included) and works them up with the hynotic speech of
the Jihad, to perpetrate acts that are immoral under the tenets of the very same religion they claim
to serve.
Yes, the Palestians deserve a homeland. In the ideal world, the new Palestine and Israel would exist
side by side in a mutual defense and economic pact that would ensure each other's safety and
prosperity. Unfortunately, while that homeland is likely to be born in our lifetime the peace that
every Polyanna believes will result is not gonna happen--ever. All the friendly communication,
financial aid and understanding in the world will not change the hearts and minds of those who
believe that people who are not members of their religion are evil, inhuman, and therefore perfectly
acceptable targets for death. Like someone recently said, these people use our virtue against us.
Kind of a variation on Lenin's threat that Capitalists would sell him the rope he would use to hang
them with.
A sad no-win situation. But we win in a small way if we survive, do our best to engage in peaceful
interaction with those who have the same desire for peace, and defend ourselves against those
members of Homo Sapiens who are human only by virtue of their DNA.
A8
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Darrick, 20:30:28
09/13/01 Thu
"There is no middle ground. This is war." This is nonsense. There are a spectrum of
options, from doing nothing but talk all the way to strategic nuclear bombardment of whatever
locations harbor the enemy. By claiming that you are either for total war, or against it, you are
limiting our strategic and tactical options. In my opinion, doing nothing would invite further and
bolder attacks. While taking the extreme nuclear course, as I've seen suggested on other forums,
would be madness.
Other options would include a surgical strike to get just those people we wanted (plus whatever
collateral damage is incurred). Another would be to launch a war intended to remove those
governments that are responsible for harboring terrorists. Both options could lead to a protracted
war. I'm not speculating on which is advisable, but I think it should be clear that it's not all or
nothing. It is possible to be cognizant of the dangers and human cost involved, without being traitors
(as you seem to be suggesting).
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean,
20:53:29 09/13/01 Thu
We are war.
Time for 'debate' or 'academic analysis' is over.
You might be one of those anti-American types. One of them who dances in the streets each time the
American death count gets higher. Then you are my enemy.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying -- Sean,
20:58:53 09/13/01 Thu
We are at war!
Our cities have been attacked. Our citizens have been killed.
This isn't a video game. This isn't a movie.
We have had it easy for too long. Now it is time for this generation to step up.
Regardless of what you thought before Tuesday, it now comes down to one question.
Do you really, I mean really want America to be destroyed? If you do then you are my enemy. Just
like the Nazis were my enemy, the Japanese. Academic debates are over. Do you want America
exist?
It is either them or us. Are you one of us?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was saying --
Darrick, 21:19:22 09/13/01 Thu
Sean,
I am more than aware that this is neither a video game, nor a movie. Living in the DC-metro area,
with friends and associates at the Pentagon, I am well-aware of the stakes.
I suggest you point out in my post where I said I want America destroyed. If you can't, perhaps an
apology is in order. Although I tend to doubt one will be forthcoming.
I am not engaging in "academic debate." These are very real policy questions are leaders
will have to deal with when it comes time to consider our response. Ideally it will be decisive, but it
will most likely take years of effort to suppress global terrorist activity. In fact, the act of
suppressing it could lead to further upheavel.
I want only this: 1. a reasonable level of security from terrorist attack (perfect security is sadly
impossible), 2. Justice for the most recent attacks, as well as those carried out in the past 3.
minimizing losses amongst our soldiers in any war that might follow, and 4. minimizing losses
amongst the many innocents or non=aligned people who live in the affected areas(while not
jeopardizing the first two requirements). These wishes represent an unnattainable ideal, and some
are mutually exclusive. Yet, I think they represent a goal that would be worthy to pursue as closely
as possible.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I was
saying -- Sean, 21:23:23 09/13/01 Thu
Again. We are in a state of war.
Our generation really has no idea what that means.
We must not "seek justice" we must wage war!
I hope you will join with all Americans as we fight towards victory.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood what I
was saying -- Darrick, 21:26:59 09/13/01 Thu
War is not waged in a vacuum. There is some goal in mind. To me, it seems clear that we are now
trying to eliminate or severely curtail terrorism, and seek justice for the bombing? War is a means,
not an end. Do you see what I mean? How is this contradicting what you are saying?
By the way, I know how you feel about your generation, you don't have to repeat it in every post.
Thanks
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think people misunderstood
what I was saying -- Sean, 21:34:14 09/13/01 Thu
We have had it very easy as a generation.
We could sit back and ponder. We spend most of our time in this "manifactured
reality".
This isn't a movie. Harrison Ford isn't president. This isn't a Clancey novel.
This is as real as it gets.
This war is going to be brutal. You may think you know because you saw "Saving Private
Ryan" but you have no idea.
You are still taking in "pre-tuesday" terms. Wake up, grow up, and understand what just
happened.
Us or them!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Darrrick the trolls don't care about
what you are saying........ -- Rufus, 21:34:59 09/13/01 Thu
They repeat the same stuff over and over again. Ignore them, as they will never hear what you have
to say.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Damn, I swallowed that hook
line and sinker. -- Darrick, 21:41:03 09/13/01 Thu
I forgot the first rule of the newsgroups, don't feed the trolls. Thanks Rufus!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're welcome -- Rufus,
21:45:03 09/13/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Darrrick the trolls don't care
about what you are saying........ -- Sean, 21:45:20 09/13/01 Thu
There are still many it seems, who, although they have seen the images, don't in some respect get
it.
I believe it is because of Hollywood. We "see" disasters every day. Heck, this wasn't as
bad as when the aliens destroyed LA, and killed the First Lady.
And the giant asteroid that hit a few years back. That Tidal wave took out most of the east
coast.
Oh, and getting back to Los Angeles. Remember that Volcano that erupted. What a surprise, who
would have thought.
Of course the difference between all those "disasters" and this is that this is real, and
those aren't. But it seems like emotionally people can't tell the difference. Of course we know this is
real, but we don't "feel" this is real. The fake images have numbed us.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> At least this time the
white house was saved -- Susan, 22:00:59 09/13/01 Thu
When the Aliens attacked, they totally destroyed the White House (isn't it great how fast it was re-
built).
In all deadly seriousness though, Sean, I believe you are right. Emotionally we have become numbed.
Hollywood has been so good at manifacturing "disaster images" when a real one comes
alone, emotionally it doesn't compute.
Too many people are talking like it was last week. September 11th, 2001 means everything has
changed. We are a nation at war, and everything else must be put aside until we achieve
victory.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> How odd. Two names, same
writing pattern. Hmm... haven't we seen these folks before? -- Solitude1056, 22:57:34 09/13/01
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Choppy sentences.
Hypnotic effect. So sleepy. -- mundusmundi, 07:36:10 09/14/01 Fri
My heart goes out... -- Marie, 07:33:07 09/13/01 Thu
Much love and prayers to all in America, from Australia.Please believe that the world grieves with
you. Everyone here is stunned by these terrible events, and deeply affected by the courage we see on
the news reports.God bless you all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Thank you to all of you from around the world... -- Cactus Watcher, 07:59:28 09/13/01
Thu
who've taken the time to say a word in this awful time. Thanks especially to our Canadian and
Mexican neighbors whose own lives may have been disrupted by these events... If even Lybia's
Moammar Gadhafi can offer condolences perhaps there is hope in the world for us all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Maybe some of you have already seen this, but if not . . . -- Shaglio, 08:07:34 09/13/01
Thu
..I'll post it here. I have recieved this from many people today, but I don't know the validity of it
(whether it is a genuine article or just another phony chain email thing):
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. America:
The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What
follows is the full text of his Trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This
Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were
lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in
debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United
States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up,
and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When
earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The
Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to
see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its
own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International
lines except Russia fly American Planes? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get
radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk
about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely
home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for
everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our
streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When
the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
Loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans
raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San
Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when
they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present
troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> An oldie but still appreciated -- Cactus Watcher, 08:23:40 09/13/01 Thu
Airplane and draft dodger references indicate the article is several decades old. But, I've always felt
that having Canada on our border has been a good influence on those of us in the USA.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- BobR, 09:49:14 09/13/01 Thu
I remember hearing that in 1973. It IS several decades old.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- Shaglio, 10:30:31 09/13/01 Thu
"I remember hearing that in 1973. It IS several decades old."
Wow, it's even older than I am. I knew, since it seemed like the typical chain email sort, that
something might be a little askew about it. I just thought that maybe it was a gross article that
someone created, I didn't realize it was decades old.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- Shaglio, 10:30:34 09/13/01 Thu
"I remember hearing that in 1973. It IS several decades old."
Wow, it's even older than I am. I knew, since it seemed like the typical chain email sort, that
something might be a little askew about it. I just thought that maybe it was a gross article that
someone created, I didn't realize it was decades old.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: An oldie but still appreciated -- John Burwood, 10:37:03 09/13/01
Thu
Not only appreciated, but still basically valid. Just think if there had been no USA during the
twentieth century. I shudder to think what would have happened to my beloved England, and God
knows what the world would be like without America to fight for Freedom. Too many seem to take
such things for granted. I don't. I hope this will teach others that freedom , prosperity, etc are not
natural rights we can take for granted, but things that people have had to fight for and earn. Nobody
has done more to give these to the human race than America. Let nobody ever forget it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Gordon Sinclair -- Wisewoman, 16:31:17 09/13/01 Thu
Was an outspoken, intelligent, curmudgeonly Canadian broadcaster who used to be one of the panel
on Front Page Challenge, along with Pierre Berton and others. He died quite some time ago, but his
sentiments toward our neighbours in the States are still pertinent today.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> 9-11-01 -- JBone, 20:14:19 09/13/01 Thu
Thank you Marie...
I still don't know if someone I knew was in either WTC building, or the Pentagon, or on any of the 4
hijacked flights. At this point, I'd be surprised if I didn't. I told someone the other day, if I don't know
anyone, my mom probably will, because she knows everyone. It is still very hard for me to grasp
with. My formative years were during the last 10 years of the cold war. I grew up in a Reagan
America. And as an impressionable pre-teenager, growing up on a farm in South Dakota, who really
didn't care about much, Reagan always made me feel proud and privileged to be an American.
As I matured, I've watched the Challenger blow up, the Berlin Wall come down, the Gulf War, David
Koresh's compound burn down outside Waco, TX, the Oklahoma City bombing, the Littleton,
Colorado shootings, the Clinton presidency (how embarrassing), the seemingly endless US election
debacle, and numerous other front page happenings that didn't affect me as much as those that I've
mentioned. None of these affected me near as much as 9-11-01. My anger has finally subsided a little
bit, but it's still there. I still believe that, as I've said before, there must be retribution, it must be
swift, and if it is massive, so be it. But as I watch the rescue efforts, and the people waiting outside
the hospitals holding photos of their lost loved ones, I get sick. I haven't felt this sick since my best
friend in TX, Paul, died almost 2 years ago. Or if you read the chat transcript, since my nephew died
at the age of 24 months 4 years ago. At some point in the chat, I said it was personal, I meant I felt
like my family and friends were attacked. I was probably too enraged to explain it. Unfortunately, as
a sign of our lost freedom, I feel like I should say that I will not go off on my own. I'm mostly trying
to explain my patriotism.
Every time my heart broke the last few days, my resolve just grew. The only reason my heart doesn't
break more, is that I have to turn off the radio or tv just to escape. But I need to remember, I need to
feel it. WE ARE AMERICANS. We come to the rescue of other nations. Not the other way around. So
New York, Washington, Pennsylvania, Boston, Trenton, and all of America, we stand with you. It is
only coincidence that I'm not there now, digging through the rubble with you. God Bless
America.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> BtVS doesn't mean much anymore -- JBone, 21:06:54 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> On the contrary. -- Solitude1056, 22:38:33 09/13/01 Thu
No. I disagree. I wholeheartedly disagree. The stories we tell, and the stories we listen to, and the
stories we exchange, mean everything.
I don't know how to put it, and normally I'd struggle to find a way, but this time I'll be awkward. For
all the fuss about "in god we trust," the Great Seal of this country doesn't say that. It
does, though, have a latin phrase that means, "I will create a new way." We do that by
sifting through what's happened and filtering it into our stories, and creating a cohesive, collective
understanding and comprehension of our past. And we'll use that to come to grips with our future.
Those stories are crucial. In the months to come, we'll tell stories to our friends and family of how we
feel, what we saw, and the people we lost - those we knew, and those we hadn't had the chance to
meet. Those stories, and our ability to tell them, are part of what shapes our understanding of who
we are, and our intentions of who we will be - as a person, as a community, as a nation, as a species.
In that scheme of things, stories about heroes are always important... even the fictional ones.
During World War Two, Tolkein and C.S. Lewis were writing, to name two authors among many.
They created stories in alternate worlds, but stories of heroes and struggles and pain and death and
evil and good, nonetheless. Those stories - theirs, and others - are what kept people going through
the long dark nights of the Blitzkrieg. Stories have always fascinated, entranced, compelled, and
inspired us. Our very humanity is defined by our insistence on telling our stories, and listening to
others' stories.
When immigrants come to this country, they hear our legends, and in hearing them, those legends
become part of their stories, too. Washington chopped down a cherry tree. A boy brought water to
troops in the hot July sun, even those troops on the enemy's side who were crying out for succor.
Lincoln was shot at Ford's Theater. A young woman was imprisoned for organizing a march on
behalf of the suffagrette movement. Teddy Roosevelt argued for the creation of National Parks. A
man died in the trenches, poisoned by mustard gas. FDR stood in NYC and cried out to the populace,
"the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." A woman became a machinery operator,
taking the place of men who were off fighting against one of the darkest evils in our history. JFK
promised that by the end of the decade, we'd have a man on the moon. These are the things
immigrants learn, and hear, and soon they make these stories their own, too. I know this. My family
is nothing but second-class unwashed immigrants, and we still tell the stories of how our family
came to this country, who we met, what we learned, and the stories we heard, and the stories we
became a part of... and we've been here for over nine generations.
We have a history of some pretty horrible dealings, and some amazing triumphs. I don't mean just
my country, but humankind as a whole. A young man stood in Tiannamen Square and placed a
flower in the barrel of a tank. A nurse did her best to offer aid and comfort to a man dying of
radiation in Nagasaki. The Zulus routed the British, despite being outgunned and outnumbered. A
man stood at Fort McHenry and told the newcomers, who had brought death and famine to his land,
that as his allies, he would stand with them until he could fight no more. A young woman rode for
fifty miles on horseback to warn her neighbors and countrymen that their land was being invaded.
And an old man taught that peaceful resistence is as powerful as any weapon created.
These are the stories we - humanity - have, of heroes! How can that not be powerful? The medium of
TV is just as bastardized in so many ways as the pulp novels of the thirties, but does that mean that
we should ignore O. Henry, Kate Chopin, Mark Twain, J.R.R. Tolkein, or any other author who
happened to be using the same medium at the same time? We're participating, dare I say, in a story
that is just as powerful and evocative as any other, because it's telling us the same story as every
ancient myth, in every culture on the face of this planet: there are heroes among us. We don't always
know who they are, and we don't always get their names, but they're there. And someday, if we're
lucky and work hard, we may be recognized as being one of them. In the meantime, we'll tell our
stories, and listen to others' stories, and realize that our stories are what bring us together over our
campfires, our computers, our tables, and our differences.
We need heroes, of all types, now more than ever.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Not too awkward, Sol. -- Marie, 02:54:12 09/14/01 Fri
Speaking from the country of Bards, couldn't agree more.
M
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Whew. Thanks. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 05:51:13 09/14/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Australia? Okay, but Marie, I thought you were in Wales... -- Wisewoman, 08:51:06 09/14/01
Fri
in the UK. Was that New South Wales? I'm confused now!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Not me! -- Marie, 09:00:50 09/14/01 Fri
Different one! I'm the Welsh one, by the way. Hi, Marie in Australia!
Actually, when I saw another Marie, I was confused, too, thinking 'Hey, I didn't do that!".
Hehe.
Might be a good opportunity to change my boring board name to something more interesting,
though...hmmm...
(No offence, Other One!)
Marie (But not for long)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Oh, no! We have enough trouble keeping track of just one! ;-) -- Solitude1056,
09:13:17 09/14/01 Fri
I hereby dub thee M1 (like the spy guy, but with a number) for our lovely Welsh personage, and M2
(like, uh, the spy guy but with a different number) for our delightful newcomer. Ah-hah. Am I
brilliant or what? (Or just desperately in need of a day off!)
1056
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Take the day, Sol...PLEASE! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 09:19:00 09/14/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Mwauahahaha. -- Solitude1056, 09:25:11 09/14/01 Fri
Just to cheer you up today... -- Marie, 08:15:08 09/13/01
Thu
Check out
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/buffy/features/nocturnal/interviews/james/index.shtml
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Just to cheer you up today... -- Dedalus, 11:16:20 09/13/01 Thu
Thanks. I just gotta say, I want to go over to Joss' house one fine Sunday afternoon. I think all of us
should be invited.
OT: Candle Lighting - 7:00p EST,
Friday, 9/14 -- rowan, 08:29:53 09/13/01 Thu
If you're comfortable doing so, please spread the word to join the many US citizens who will display a
lighted candle at 7:00p EST on Friday, 9/14 as a protest against global terrorism & in memory of the
victims of Tuesday's attacks on New York, Washington DC, and Pennsylvania.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> soundtrack for it... go listen, it's here if you need it. -- Solitude1056, 10:05:38 09/13/01
Thu
Not all of you may listen to this band, but I heard this song on the radio during lunch. It's available
for free download from the +Live+ website, at http://www.friendsoflive.com/home.html. Click on
"download overcome." The song is called Overcome & will be on their fifth album. This
particular song is being released way ahead of time, due to the group's decision that it may speak to
folks dealing with the event's aftermath. The website states:
Download the Overcome MP3 Live want to share "Overcome" from V with everyone
around the world as a demonstration of our support for America and our empathy for all of the
individuals who are personally affected by the devastating attack on our nation. Please download
"Overcome" and share it with anyone you feel might find comfort and solace in the lyrics
and music. If you choose, please forward it to your local radio stations who may appreciate it and
want to broadcast it to their listeners.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Masq, I know, this isn't like me... but still. -- Solitude1056, 10:28:27 09/13/01 Thu
I'm not one to post lyrics - especially continuing the off-topic trend here - but I realized not everyone
has a fast connection to be able to listen. So, as best I can manage (given that the song's not released
so there's no official lyrics that I can find anywhere)... here's the lyrics. I can't figure out all of them,
but hopefully I got kind of close (there's only two or three words I'm not positive of). Also, if you want
to hear it on your local radio, call them up & ask them to download the song & play it. The band has
explicitly granted permission, and I think it nails the sensation the rescue workers must be feeling
right now...
even now, the world is bleeding but feeling just fine, all numb in our castle we were always free to
choose, never free enough to find I wish something would break, cause we're running out of
time
and I am overcome, yeah, I am overcome, holy water in my lungs, I am overcome
there's women in the street pulling out their hair my master's in the yard, giving life to the unaware
this plastic little place is just a step amongst the stairs
and I am overcome, yeah, I am overcome, baby, holy water in my lungs, yeah, I am overcome
so drive me out, yeah, out to that open field turn the ignition off, and spin around your helpless heels
but I'm parked in this open space, but locking the gates of love
and I am overcome, yeah, I am overcome, baby, holy water in my lungs, yeah, I am overcome, yeah
yeah, I am overcome, oh Lord, I am overcome, holy water in my lungs, holy water, I am
overcome...
beautiful drowning, this beautiful drowning, this holy water, this holy water... is in my lungs, and I
am overcome, I am overcome, I am overcome
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Thank you so much, Sol...it's beautiful -- Wisewoman, 11:07:33 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> This is like me...more reflective lyrics. -- A8, 11:36:56 09/13/01 Thu
Unlike Sol, I have shamelessly posted lyrics from time to time which I felt reflect a mood of a given
moment (albeit generally related to BtVS). Last night, I sought comfort in music, as I usually do and
was drawn to a few songs in particular that seemed to reflect some of the emotions I have been
experiencing, and from the tone of the appropriately OT posts here over the past few days, the
feelings of many of the other posters here as well.
When the night shows, the signals grow on radios All the strange things, they come and go There's
early warnings Stranded starfish have no place to hide Still waiting for the swollen eastern tide
There's no point in direction We cannot even choose a side
I took the old track--the hollow shoulder across the water On the tall cliffs, they were getting older
Sons and daughters The jaded underworld was riding high Waves of steel-hurled metal at the sky
And as the nail sunk in the cloud The rain was warm and soaked the crowd
Lord, here comes the flood We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood If again, the seas are silent in any
still alive It'll be those who gave their island to survive Drink up dreamers--you're running dry
When the flood calls, you'll have no home You'll have no walls In the thundercrash, you're a
thousand minds within a flash Don't be afraid to cry at what you see The actor's gone, it's only you
and me And if we break before the dawn They'll use up what we used to be
Lord, here comes the flood We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood If again the seas are silent in any still
alive It'll be those who gave their island to survive Drink up dreamers--you're running dry
Here Comes the Flood by Peter Gabriel
They say that in 1842 on a plantation in Alabama the slaves unearthed a huge skeleton, the bones of
a giant whale, a leviathan, from the time when all the world was covered with water from the Andes
to the Himalayas and even Alabama was deep down under. And the slaves looked at the huge bones
and they said:
These must be the bones of a fallen angel These must be the bones of a fallen angel
Out on the ocean, out on the water We look for signs of him He looks like a giant snow hill, a
fountain Then he disappears. He's a speck on the horizon
We see him only in parts The flash of a tail, his beating heart. He's in pieces and parts
It's easier for a camel to slide through the eye of a needle Than to find a whale who hides at the
bottom of the ocean
It's easier to sail around the world in a coffee cup Than to see a whale when he comes rising up
We see him only in parts A fountain, fins, a speck on the horizon Giant teeth, an open mouth Look
out look out look out look out
So hit an elephant with a dart and he just reaches around and pulls it out with his trunk But hit a
whale in the heart and the whole ocean turns red, it turns red
We see him only in parts The flash of a tail, his beating heart He's in pieces and parts
So get hit in your head And there may be a few things you can't recall at all But get hit in your heart
And you're in pieces and parts Pieces and parts
Pieces and Parts by Laurie Anderson
Every picture has its shadows And it has some source of light Blindness, blindness and sight The
perils of benefactors The blessings of parasites Blindness, blindness and sight Threatened by all
things Devil of cruelty Draw to all things Devil of delight Mythical devil of the ever-present laws
Governing blindness, blindness and sight
Suntans in reservation dining rooms Pale miners in their lantern rays Night, night and day Hostage
smiles on presidents Freedom scribbled in the subway It's like night, night and day Threatened by
all things God of cruelty Drawn to all things God of delight Mythical god of the everlasting laws
Governing day, day and night
Critics of all expression Judges in black and white Saying it's wrong Saying it's right Compelled by
prescribed standards Or some ideals we fight For wrong, wrong and right Threatened by all things
Man of cruelty--mark of Cain Drawn to all things Man of delight--born again, born again Man of the
laws, the ever-broken laws Governing wrong, wrong and right Governing wrong, wrong and right
Wrong and right.
Shadows and Light by Joni Mitchell
Thanks for indulging me here, but these lyrics seemed very relevant to me, and it never hurts to
share.
A8
cannot be reasoned with;but can be HEALED -- briseis,
09:04:49 09/13/01 Thu
Also the causes of the kinds of hurt that make people into fanatics can be prevented. Wilhelm Reich
said this;Alice Miller says this;Stanislav Grof says this; Michel Odent says this;Arthur Janov says
this. We cannot just say, I am not one of those unreasonable people, THEY have broken the rules,
let's make THEM "go away." That's just "reasonably" and coldly killing
people which our society says is OK, so we don't have to think about it-I'm not saying that in the
state the world is in, that this is not sometimes unavoidable as self-defense, but being OK with
killing people, as long as you've gone through some kind of legalistic justification in your head, is not
truly abhorring violence. I f we want to really HELP, we have to ask what makes people violent
fanatics and how can we change this-not just "I am not a violent fanatic, so I'm not going to
face this issue, I'm not the problem." ON the web, on the Primal Psychotherapy Page, there is
an in-depth book review about a little girl in England, a 10 year-old, "Mary Bell" who
tortured and killed two toddlers. I think its a very relevant story to what makes folks who can do
things like this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: cannot be reasoned with;but can be HEALED -- Dedalus, 11:19:22 09/13/01 Thu
"We have to ask what makes people violent fanatics"
Quite true. But finger pointing is always easier.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> help? -- spotjon, 12:51:24 09/13/01 Thu
It's not our job to "help" the terrorists who coordinated this mass-murder on American
soil. I'm all for preventing such mindsets in the United States, but I don't see what the purpose of
trying to understand their point-of-view is. I agree that there are a lot of sadistic people, many of
them in this country, and many of them children. We do need to understand why that sort of thing
happens, and stop it. But what does that have to do with these people who just recently attacked us?
They are a threat to national security and to every person in this country. They have committed
mass-murder, and they will do it again if they are not stopped. We need to hunt these people down
and wipe them out. They are not interested in us sympathizing with them or understanding their
cause. They want us dead, and thus they must be taken out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: help? -- Dedalus, 15:45:11 09/13/01 Thu
The more patriotic, middle class Dedalus in me agrees with you. I want blood for this, and I'll be
cheering no doubt when the F-16s start firing up on foreign runways.
On the other hand, it is imperative that we understand this mindset. Otherwise we are simply
attacking the immediate problem, rather than the root of the problem. Bombing will be good for
morale and all that, but until we all start sitting down and figuring out why we behave in this way
on this planet, it will happen again, in some form or fashion.
And I highly doubt they are a threat to national security. They're not a threat to me. Unless they
plan on continuing to hijack planes and crash them into every building in the continental United
States, I seriously doubt they are a threat to national security.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> why in the world would you assume... -- anom, 21:25:32 09/13/01 Thu
..that briseis meant help the terrorists!? This is what s/he said:
"I f we want to really HELP, we have to ask what makes people violent fanatics and how can
we change this..."
I read this as meaning to help the situation, help "change this" to prevent the next
attack (or somewhere down the line, since it can't work immediately). The idea is to prevent
"such mindsets" not only in the US but in the places terrorists come out of, by changing
the circumstances that give rise to them. Briseis didn't specify whom or what kind of help. Why
would you want to fill in that blank as meaning "help the terrorists"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> That is an easy one... -- Voxpopuli, 05:28:25 09/14/01 Fri
When you feel threatened, when you are hurt, when you feel you have to do something, sometimes a
person coming along with "calm down, think it over, try to make a long term solution"
may be seen with suspicion, people will always take on this person the anger they feel, or just
understand/project what they actually believe on that person's discourse. Nothing more natural,
nothing more human. We all probably do this about one or other thing, a touchy topic, in our
lives.
Jumping to conclusions is just part of the package. No harm meant, no harm done.
Hey, guys, the situation is damn serious, but if guys go on like this... well, then it is my turn to be
bashed for saying... "calm down, you're all humans, let's look at each other like inhabitants of
the same planet..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Voxpopuli is right -- spotjon, 06:24:28 09/14/01 Fri
It was a knee-jerk reaction to a vague statement. I've been pretty on-edge the last couple of days, as I
imagine most everyone else has been, too. I agree that we need to understand this mindset more, and
find out what we can do to prevent it.
Taking deep breaths....
-spotjon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> not much to add, but.. -- briseis, 07:34:12 09/14/01 Fri
I am a she by the way, and using my real name, although I feel kind of embarrassed about that as
people on this list have come up with such interesting tags. Anyway, yes, my whole
"help" thing was talking about general situations in this country, AND preventing future
terrorist attacks by creating an atmosphere that prevents those mindsets from developing. This post
may have been vaguer than I wanted it to be, because I didn't mean to create a new thread, but to
reply to one below.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Man, in that case, *I* wanna cool real name like yours! ;-) --
Solitude1056, 08:13:22 09/14/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> And on a practical level... -- Dariel, 11:42:06 09/14/01 Fri
Killing people who glory in suicide just ain't effective. Terrorists are the toughest people to fight,
because they usually don't care what you do to them.
May
I make a suggestion? -- Liquidram, 11:48:10 09/13/01 Thu
It's my turn to climb on the soapbox for a minute and I will offer a blanket apology to anyone who
may resent what I am going to say. Please accept my comments as a reflection of my respect for all of
you and a desire to maintain the relationships we appreciate on this board.
May I suggest that we move our conversation and posts on this board back to it's intended
discussions?
In no way do I mean to downplay what has happened, but I honestly feel that we can use our board
as a means to escape the reality and not use it for a religious or political forum.
We are all sad and angered and afraid and stoic in our opinions, but it's time to move on. If we allow
this horrible event to completely alter our everyday activities then, the terrorists have won. This is
what they want. To throw our country, government, economy and most important, our spirit into
disarray. They want us to argue and fight and hate those different than ourselves. I say NOT
ME.
Paul Harvey said on Tuesday that when we saw our children on this day, we should hug them to us
tightly because underneath they had been raped. A horrible statement. And what is rape? It is
simply control over another person manifested in violence and violation. If you do not allow yourself
to be controlled, then they have no power.
I will show my respect for the victims and families of this tragedy by moving on and not allowing the
terrorists to win.
Anyone who still needs to discuss this week's events with other members of our group is more than
welcome to use the chat program at my site http://ivyweb.com/chat 24/7. It is available to you at
anytime so please feel free to use it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Good call. If we tear ourselves apart, they've won. -- Rattletrap, 12:02:01 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Got my support - well, when I'm not driving around looking for Buffy billboards to honk at... ;-)
-- Solitude1056, 12:09:24 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> just vented my last thoughts on the subject -- mundusmundi, 12:17:58 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: May I make a suggestion? -- spotjon, 12:25:08 09/13/01 Thu
I think that's probably a good suggestion, though I doubt that any philosophical discussions will be
able to ignore what has just happened. I get the feeling that the old "All threads lead to
Spike" truism will soon be changed to "All threads lead to the terrorist attack." I
agree that it feels like our entire nation has been raped. It is my contention that all rapists are
essentially cowards, attacking violently in the dark without warning, because they can not stand to
fight in the open. Our enemies are not even taking credit for what they've done, because they know
that if they do, they will be ground into dust before they can blink twice.
I suppose I'm not helping by continuing ranting about this. :-( I don't think we can just let this go,
because something very fundamental has shifted in the spirit of our country. I think that people are
going to have much less patience for things which are non-essential and frivilous in the coming
months. We are entering a war, and wars cause people to think really hard about the things they
believe in. I'm wondering if the entire entertainment industry isn't going to take a nose-dive very
soon, because the American people aren't going to put up with much of the stupidity that comes out
of Hollywood for quite a while.
That's what I think is going to happen, at least. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think that our
country is going to be terribly enamoured by "This Fall's New Lineup". We've been
waken out of our pipe dreams of security, and we've woken up cranky. If I could have only one good
thing come of this, it would be for interest in Britney Spears and her pop-buddies to vanish forever,
but that might be too much to ask. :-)
-spotjon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> They may actually have to start coming up with something original. -- A8, 12:42:48
09/13/01 Thu
Every other US made movie seems to have a plane or building exploding (Schwarzeneger, Seagall,
and Willis would have no careers without explosives). Now comes the real challenge for them--
meaningful stories, well-written and no boom boom. Too bad Joss and Co. are spreading themselves
out thin already with all their current projects. I have to believe there are more like them out there.
Hey what about the Dark Alchemy crew?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Pushy, pushy - we're working on it! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 12:56:17 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: May I make a suggestion? -- Dedalus, 15:58:02 09/13/01 Thu
Whoa, partner.
First off, I think the rape metaphor is getting a little out of hand. It's so "this morning".
It's passe.
Second off, war isn't traditionally a time when people think really hard about their beliefs. It's
basically a time when everyone reasserts their heads in the sand and starts waving flags. If
anything, if we have an external enemy to project out on, that means we have to do LESS thinking
and reevaluating. We just fall back on our old comfortable status quos, and that's that.
Third off, America will always put up with stupidity, whether it's coming out of Hollywood or the
White House. This country is a delicately balanced system of stupidity and lies. Take either one
away, and the entire thing would collapse faster than a house of cards.
Fourth off, I don't foresee a time in the future when I will lose interest in Ms. Spears, especially if
she continues to look as absolutely awesome as she does right now. She drives me crazy (but it feels
all right).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Passe maybe .... -- Liquidram, 16:25:12 09/13/01 Thu
.. but since I just heard it this morning on the radio, it was new to me, so don't be mean to me Ded or
I'll, well I'll just sit here and sulk awile.
I just wanted to diffuse some of the bashing that was getting somewhat out of hand on the board...
that's all.
and Britney? Yea, she's okay, very beautiful. But I think I'll stick with Spike... I much prefer his
voice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Spike... -- Voxpopuli, 10:51:12 09/14/01 Fri
Ooops! Magic name: Spike (my eyes get glassy, zombie mood, chanting Spiiiiike... Spiiiikeee). Yeah,
his voice is cool. Glad my husband is never on such Forums ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Dude, put down the crack pipe. -- Solitude1056, 17:06:26 09/13/01 Thu
Every knows that Christina Aguilera chick could kick Britney Spears' ass. Pffffft.
(hehehe)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> I don't know, she looks a little underfed to do any damage to anyone. -- A8,
17:12:39 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Britney rules! -- Dedalus, 18:25:25 09/13/01 Thu
And she would have kicked butt as Robot April on Buffy. That Pepsi commercial alone was one of the
most erotic things I've ever seen in my life, Playboy lesbian porno included. :-)
Anyway, my main problem with the use of the word "rape" is a personal one. No, I'm not
about to launch into some horrible story, rather a relatively amusing one.
See, over at the AICN talkbacks, at the very height of Phantom Menace bashing, some fan had had
enough, and typed out in capital letters "LUCAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!" Ever since
then, I have to fight off the urge to laugh whenever rape is mentioned. That could leave one in some
precarious social situations, as you might imagine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, yeah, and Angel is a hottie. Could we have new eps NOW
please? ;-) -- Humanitas, 19:25:16 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROFLMAO! yeah, yeah, we need 'em. Bad! -- Solitude1056,
19:38:52 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But Hum, we were discussing skinny blonds, so I .... --
Liquidram, 20:06:18 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Britney rules! -- Liquidram, 20:04:32 09/13/01 Thu
I can promise you that you would not be laughing at my story of rape.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> passe? -- spotjon, 06:04:55 09/14/01 Fri
I don't know, I think that the rape metaphor is fairly descriptive of what happened. The entire
country, so far as I've been able to ascertain, feels violated, hurt and angry. Our attackers have not
identified themselves, and everybody continues to deny responsibility. Just because a lot of people
are using the metaphor does not mean it isn't apt in this situation.
War is not a time when people think hard about their beliefs? It seems to me that when you know
you might die a violent death at any second, you think really hard about what comes after. That's
the one time not to be ignoring those questions.
And yes, Americans will probably put up with stupidity forever, but one can only hope that people
will have less idiocy tolerance for a while.
Lastly, at least Britney broke the age-18 barrier, finally. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> "There are no atheists in foxholes." -- Solitude1056, 07:33:07
09/14/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> What about foxes in atheist holes? Oooh, sounds naughty, doesn't it? --
A8, 13:40:34 09/14/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I have a feeling that in a day or so we'll all settle down a bit. -- A8, 12:29:21 09/13/01 Thu
All this swirl of emotions is about to reach the point of fatigue pretty soon. Honestly, though, with
BtVS off the air until next month and the AtS season premiere still a couple weeks away, I've run
out of things to discuss regarding the themes of past episodes. I'm not too original, so I don't want to
end up bringing up a topic that may have been addressed numerous times already. So until someone
else comes up with something new about something old here, I'll respond to whatever's posted, lurk
and wait.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Sounds like a plan to me! Going to read the Darla thread now... -- Humanitas, 13:01:35
09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: In reference to the chat room .... -- Dedalus, 16:11:39 09/13/01 Thu
Well, I checked in there a couple of times today. The first time I admit, I was having a most
charming conversation, but then I finally realized I was the only one there.
:-(
Anyway, I would like each and everyone of us to remember - Buffy is always more important than
real life. The scripts are better written, the direction is much more solid, and, generally speaking,
the actors are much better looking.
*Dedalus proudly faces down reality and extends his middle finger*
:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> and the soundtrack's better! -- Solitude1056 who should be finishing up Part V...,
16:21:21 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Next time you go chat, may want to post a board notice so that people will know a chat's
going on. -- A8, 17:10:49 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I'm all for it. -- Deeva, 21:26:14 09/13/01 Thu
We're already surrounded by the non-stop coverage, don't need to come here to see more of it. No
offense meant by that last part. It's just that I reached overload ages ago. Not indifferent, just
drowning in it. Besides I do come here to escape a bit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Deeva, that was my point exactly. -- Liquidram, 21:36:12 09/13/01 Thu
Bad news--looks like another building's going to fall. --
A8, 13:12:39 09/13/01 Thu
They've evacuated the rescue area because the Liberty Tower is showing signs of buckling.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Does anyone here read Dave Barry? -- Shaglio, 13:51:01 09/13/01 Thu
He's usually funny, but today he's more inspiring:
http://www.miami.com/herald/special/features/barry/2001/docs/wtc0913.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Thanks for the site address. He's right on the mark IMHO. -- A8, 13:56:07 09/13/01
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Thanks for the site address. He's right on the mark IMHO. -- Shaglio, 06:11:12
09/14/01 Fri
Unfortunately, I violated Liq's suggestion to no longer talk about "it." But he wrote it
after Liq's suggestion and I thought it was very poinient(sp?). I wish we had a new episode so we'd
have something else to discuss, but we're still stuck in rerunville.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks for the site address. He's right on the mark IMHO. -- Rattletrap,
08:00:39 09/14/01 Fri
Worse than being stuck in rerunville, we're stuck in a 'ville without even Buffy reruns.
AArrrgh!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Like I said in a previous post, Buffy reruns (from Season 1 on)... -- A8,
10:47:57 09/14/01 Fri
..are slated to begin (on at least one non-cable WB affiliate in California) on September 22. Check
your local listings, there may be an affiliate in your area doing the same thing. Could keep you going
a bit before the October 2 premiere.
A little humor --
Brian, 14:12:17 09/13/01 Thu
I hope you folks will accept my attempt to lighten the load of the board after the last days. I agree
that we need to get back to "normal" as quickly as possible. This song is done to
"We need a little Christmas" from the musical "Auntie Mame" I have no idea
whether it scans correctly as I can't sing. Feel free to make changes if you like.
Haul out the body Dig up that coffin before my spirits fail again. Stiffen up that shroud, I may be
rushing things, but we need some action now. For we need a living Buffy Right this very minute,
Vampires in the window, Demons at the door. Yes, we need a fighting Buffy Right this very minute.
The vampires are in a fury, But Buffy, dear, we're in a hurry; So climb out of that grave; Pick up the
biggest, sharpest stake I've ever seen. It's time we staked another vamp with that evergreen. For I've
grown a little paler, Grown a little colder, Grown a little sadder, Grown a little older, And I need an
action Buffy Staking by my shoulder, Need a punning Buffy now. Yes, we need a little slayage, Need
a little slaughter, Need a little staking Dusting to the rafters, And we need a little snappy
"Happy ever after" Need a little smile right now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Go, Brian! ROFLMAO!! -- Wisewoman, 15:22:07 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Beautiful! Thanks for sharing!!! :) -- Nina, 18:30:53 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Musical ep -- Helen, 02:32:42 09/14/01 Fri
Shame the first ep isn't going to be the musical one - Willow, Xander and co could stand around the
grave singing as they do their little spell!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Like a Charlie Brown Xmas on the Hellmouth. Xander could do a Snoopy grave dance. --
A8, 13:44:12 09/14/01 Fri
Demon, Migration and Resettlement -- fresne, 14:43:10
09/13/01 Thu
Fully taking into account both Sol's comment about keyboards (stepping away from) and Liquidram's
request that we try to bring the discussion back to Buffy...
Some of Voxpopuli's comments below about the Brazilian model of ethnic diversity, assimilation vs.
the American model got me to thinking about the demons within the BtVSverse and their
assimilation or lack thereof into the greater mass of human society.
We have a multiplicity of examples:
We have demons who have been around for centuries/millennium and form themselves into
communal groups separate from the greater whole, which maintain their own unique cultural
identity.
We have individuals like the Host, a new immigrant, who has gratefully assimilated into Los
Angeles culture. I say Los Angeles, because, in my opinion, America is not only one nation, but 50
nations, with vastly divergent cultural norms between states. From blue laws in Mass to legalized
prostitution in Nevada, each state has its own feel. And within states, as in any country, vast
cultural differences between cities.
If recent events have shown me anything, it has shown me how much I am an American. However, I
am also be degrees, a Californian, Northern (No.) Californian and a S.F. Bay Arean (If there is such
a word). Talk to two No. Californians about Los Angeles and the comment that they stole our water
will come up. Durn So. Californians, don't even know that we don't like them...but I digress.
I'm sure if we were to ask the Host if he considers himself a Pylean in exile or a Plyean-American, he
would say neither, I'm a Los Angelean.
Of course the Host is an odd case, a community of one.
Then there are the vampires, the ultimate halfbreeds. Randomly, I wonder where the demon that
inhabits the human comes from. Does it hover in the ether? Does their progenitor vampire give birth
to it through the exchange of blood? Because it's all about blood isn't it. They tend to stick to small
family groups and live nomadically, which makes sense.
Demons, particularly vampires, are also immigrants in time. Nomadic. Constantly having to deal
with the inevitable flow of human history. We change. Some demons are capable of adapting, ie can
assimilate to new cultures, others cannot and get left behind. Because, the older you get, the harder
it is to adapt to a new culture, which makes Anya really impressive. Although, there we run into the
difficulty of defining demon. Human then demon then human. Is Anya young and adaptable or old
and therefore doing very well with the whole assimilation into human culture thing?
Many years ago, I took a class on Migration and Resettlement, which looked at how people move and
deal with moving between countries and cultures. The class focused on the Americas (particularly
Native Americans), but some discussion of Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Europe, Australia etc.
Typically, (with some interesting exceptions) people entering an alien environment (even if they
wanted to move) form themselves into same culture pockets.
As for example, my German ancestors who got into covered wagons and drove East into Russia to
settle around the Black Sea. They built Germanic houses in ethnically German communities, which
spoke German, in Russia, surrounded by Russian communities, which didn't speak German. Of
course, generations later, still speaking German, they came to America where they assimilated into
the Nordic hodge-podge that is the Dakotas. So, what's the difference? Why assimilate here and not
there?
Why do we have all of these very distinct demonic tribes after millennium of living surrounded by
humans?
Clearly, cross breeding is possible in a variety of ways and yet, we have been largely presented with
groups of distinct types of demons with unique cultural norms.
Or have we...given that demons have been on earth since the "Old Ones" (large booming
voice) left, I wonder how much early assimilation occurred. Maybe Tara is part demon, she just isn't
a large enough percentage demon to qualify for a scholarship. Perhaps that's partially what they
mean by there are no "true demons" on Earth. Perhaps most demons have a little human
blood somewhere in the background. Perhaps, all humans have a little demon in them.
Pics from the Angel season opener -- spotjon, 14:54:07 09/13/01
Thu
Check them out at Cinescape.com. There's nothing too spoilerish in them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Pics from the Angel season opener -- Dedalus, 16:14:10 09/13/01 Thu
Those are cool. Kicking a little monkish butt, eh?
Minor spoiler - I heard Angel was going to be mourning his lost love at a Himalayan monastery. That
is so romantic. Once I have a lost love, I am so gonna mourn them in a Himalayan monastery.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I tend to mourn mine with a sixer of Moosehead or Rolling Rock. -- A8, 16:50:10 09/13/01
Thu
Not too ambitious here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: LOL! -- Dedalus, 18:38:21 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> OT- Just read your "beauty and the beast" Essay Dedalus!
Wonderful!:) :) -- Nina, 19:36:28 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Pics from the Angel season opener -- LadyStarlight, 08:07:33 09/14/01 Fri
I dunno about the monastery thing. For one thing, you'd have to drink ghee. And for another thing,
it's really expensive to brood (snicker) in Tibet.
Which brings up a question I have. How is Angel getting the money to do stuff like go to Tibet? And
how he went from having money in the Fifties, to eating rats in 1996/7, to living in style in Sdale? Or
is this a magic clause thingie?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The Angel season opener -- Helen, 02:08:53 09/14/01 Fri
Oh God, just how sexy is David looking?
May be Angel has been learning Tibetan relaxation and self control tehniques like Oz? Please please
can someone tell me exactly what happens in the Angel season opener when its aired. Over in
England we have no idea when or if Sky are going to show the new Buffy and Angel series. And the
distress is too much to bear. That's it - they may be 30 quid each but I am going out and buying the
Buffy 5 and Agel 2 box sets today.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Angel season opener -UK -- carniriel, 08:00:55 09/14/01 Fri
I thought that Sky were set for January starts as usual? (flippin' well better be) - which means 3
months of avoiding my usual web hangouts! The Watchers' Web usually has reasonably up-to-date
broadcast news....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> thanks - I've only recently got Sky, so I didn't know that. -- Helen, 08:05:32 09/14/01
Fri
No Buffy DVDs ... just Terrorist Ones?! -- Dedalus,
18:55:55 09/13/01 Thu
What kind of a world is it that we live in ...
I swear. Watching CNN with an uncle this afternoon, I actually saw that Osama Bin Laden had
recruitment DVDs for his little terrorist regime! What the - ?!
In an effort to begin shifting topics from Terror to Buffy, why is it, and what does it say about us,
that one can get recruitment DVDs for terrorist factions - but not even the first stinkin' season of
Buffy?
And incidentally, I've seen some of the footage on these DVDs on the news, and I wasn't that
impressed. Sure, ten year olds gleefully mowing down human targets with AK-47s makes for a
striking visual, but I mean really, I'll take Buffy any day of the week.
It makes you wonder about the extras and so-called Easter Eggs this thing has on it. We all know
the X-Men DVD has blooper footage of Spider-man running onto the set and then realizing he's in
the wrong movie. What about here? Will Khadafi be coming up and realizing he's in the wrong
recruitment film?
I mean, come on. This recruitment DVD does not even have THX sound, for crying out loud. Is
Osama himself going to be giving a director's commentary over the footage? Will Sadaam wish to join
in for additional comments? Will there be a chapter list, and if so, what will the chapters be called?
"Die Capitalists Pigs, Die"? "The United States of America, or as We More
Affectionately Call It, The Great Satan"? "Why George W. Bush is a Silly Little
Man"? Is it going to have behind the scenes specials on the making of the recruitment DVD?
Are there going to be hilarious outtakes from suicide bomber school, where the terrorists are in flight
simulators and accidentally crash into the wrong building?
Either way, it's gonna be lame, and I want my Buffy DVDs.
And I know I'm not the only one here who feels the same way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> hey Dedalus, please email me -- Liquidram, 21:25:39 09/13/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: I would ... -- Dedalus, 13:35:04 09/14/01 Fri
But I'm not at my own computer right now.
An attempt to
apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- A8, 02:04:14 09/14/01 Fri
Without all that insane troll logic that seemed to erupt down below.
In the past couple of days, there has been a great deal of debate as to what is to be the proper
response to the terrorist acts that were committed on Tuesday. Some of it has been heated and
personal. Everyone agrees that it was a tragedy. Not everyone agrees that violence, which by all
accounts is the course the United States government will follow, is the correct means by which to
resolve the conflict. The idealists believe that justice will only be served by punishing those
responsible in a lawful and humane manner and that a violent response of any kind will only beget
further violence. They believe that it is through reasoned dialogue that we can come to a mutual
understanding that will eventually lead to the peaceful solution of the conflict. The proponents of a
violent response have proposed a variety of response scenarios from mass retaliation against any and
all persons, organizations, and nations who were in any way connected with the terror to the
surgically precise assassination of only those directly responsible for the carnage. Both sides have
dug in their heels, insisting that the other side yield to the logic of their argument. Then there are
those who are tired of this whole thing already and wish to return to the comfort of the more escapist
aspects this board has to offer (ATLTS).
While the discussions on this board owe their existence to the fictional world we sometimes refer to
as the 'Jossverse,' the most thought-provoking exchanges IMHO have been those which connect the
moral dilemmas of our fictional world to our experiences and choices in the 'Realverse.' Mind you, I
love the goofy stuff as well. It's all about balance. Just like the gamut of opinions here.
Unfortunately, I had a little difficulty finding many Jossverse metaphors that address our debate.
We all have probably memorized the relevant scene in 'The Gift', but as a refresher:
Ben: She could've killed me.
Giles: No she couldn't. And sooner or later Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy.
And the world with her. Buffy even knows that. And still she couldn't take a human life. She's a hero
you see. She's not like us.
Our idealists on the board seem to see the 'Ben' in those who perpetrated the violence in NYC and
DC. We're all humans, some of us profoundly misguided, so it is inherently wrong to seek redress via
violent retaliation. It would be lowering ourselves to the level of the Hell-god in the criminal. Giles is
the pragmatist so he commits the act of unspeakable violence that Buffy could not. Convenient for
her that she had him around to do her dirty work.
Concerning our discussion on the deaths of innocent people ('collateral damage' will be the term used
when the US strikes back), from 'Consequences':
Buffy: And that's it? You just live with it? You see the dead guy in your head every day for the rest of
your life?
Faith: Buffy, I'm not going to see anything. I missed the mark last night. And I'm sorry about the
guy. I really am. But it happens. How many people do you think we saved by now? Thousands?
Didn't you stop the world from ending? Because in my book, that puts you and me in the plus
column.
Buffy: We help people. It doesn't mean we can do whatever we want.
Faith: Why not? The guy I offed was no Ghandi. You just saw it. The guy was mixed up in dirty
dealings.
Buffy: Maybe. But what if he was coming to us for help?
Faith: What if he was? You're still not seeing the big picture B. Something made us different. We're
warriors. We're built to kill.
Buffy: To kill demons. But it doesn't mean that we get to pass judgment on people like we're better
than everyone else.
Faith: We are better. That's right. Better. People need us to survive. In the balance, nobody's gonna
cry over some random bystander who got caught in the crossfire.
Buffy: I am.
Faith: Well, that's your loss.
Once again, Buffy can afford to be the idealist, because Faith is willing to do the dirty work and live
its moral consequences (actually that's debatable--she seemed to care, but suppressed that with
denial, but I'll just ignore all that because I'm lazy).
And because I just couldn't resist, here is relevant scene from the Deep Space Nine episode 'In the
Pale Moonlight' where the hero, Captain Sisko, gets caught up in dirty dealings, but is forced to
compromise his idealism to achieve a goal that will ultimately save millions of lives:
Sisko: You killed him.
Garak: That's right.
Sisko: That's what you planned to do all along, isn't it? You knew the data rod wouldn't hold up to
scrutiny. You just wanted to get him on the station so that you could plant a bomb on his
shuttle.
Garak: It wasn't quite that simple. I did have hopes that the rod would somehow pass inspection.
But I suspected that Tolar may not have been up to the task.
Sisko: What about Tolar? Did you kill him too?
Garak: Think of them both as tragic victims of war. If you can allow your anger to subside for a
moment, you'll see that they did not die in vain. The Romulans will enter the war.
Sisko: There's no guarantee of that.
Garak: Oh, but I think that there is. You see, when the Tal Shiar finishes examining the wreckage of
Vreenak's shuttle, they'll find the burnt remnants of a Cardassian optolithic data rod which
somehow miraculously survived the explosion. After painstaking forensic examination, they'll
discover that the rod contains a recording of a high level Dominion meeting at which the invasion of
Romulus was being planned.
Sisko: And they'll discover that it is a fraud!
Garak: Oh, I don't think they will. Because any imperfections in the forgery will appear to be a result
of the explosion. So with a seemingly legitimate rod in one hand and a dead senator in the other, I
ask you Captain, what conclusion would you draw?
Sisko: That Vreenak obtained the rod on Soukara and that the Dominion killed him to prevent him
from returning to Romulus with it.
Garak: Precisely. And the more the Dominion protests its innocence, the more the Romulans will
believe they're guilty because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. That's
why you came to me...isn't it Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't
capable of doing. Well it worked, and you'll get what you want. A war between the Romulans and the
Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you
may have just saved the Alpha Quadrant. And all it took was the life of one Romulan senator, one
criminal...and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you. But I call that a
bargain.
Sisko[monologue to camera]: At 0800 hours, station time...the Romulan Empire formally declared
war against the Dominion. They've already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So this
is a huge victory for the good guys! This may even be the big turning point of the entire war. There is
even a 'Welcome to the Fight' party tonight in the ward room. So...I lied...I cheated...I bribed men to
cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all...I
think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again...I would. Garak was right about one thing.
A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live
with it. Because I CAN live with it. I can live WITH it. Computer...erase that entire personal
log.
Additionally from Deep Space Nine (Episode 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges'):
Sloane: Good evening.
Bashir: Are you expecting applause? Have you come to take a bow?
Sloane: No. I just wanted to say thank you.
Bashir: For what? For allowing you to manipulate me so completely?
Sloane: For being a decent human being. That's why we selected you in the first place Doctor. We
needed somebody who wanted to play the game, but would only go so far. When the time came, you
stood your ground. You did the right thing. You reached out to an enemy. You told her the truth. You
tried to stop a murder. The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men of conscience. Men of
principle. Men who can sleep at night. You're also the reason Section 31 exists. Someone had to
protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong.
Bashir: Should I feel sorry for you? Should I be weeping over the burden you're forced to carry in
order to protect the rest of us?
Sloane: It is an honor to know you Doctor. Good night.
The monsters and demons of BtVS may not exist in our world, but we all acknowledge that Joss has
used them as metaphors for evils that exist in fact. Same goes for the politics and aliens of DS9. This
week we have all been impacted by evil in the real world. I believe that we have entered an era
where events like the WTC and Pentagon massacres will be regular occurrences in the world at
large, and the U.S. in particular, so we're going to have to adopt moral, physical and psychological
strategies to cope with the fact that there are people out there that are going to try to kill us on a
regular basis. Here are the real facts. On Tuesday, jet airplanes were used as bombs by people with
no fear of death in order to kill innocent people in an diabolically efficient and dramatic fashion. The
reason they used jets is that they have not yet developed nuclear and biological weapons capabilities.
However, within the next decade, most likely, one of our cities will be the target of some crude form
of mass destructive weaponry ("dirty" nuke, or bioweapon). End of the world zealots
came that close to inflicting mass destruction on Japan with chemical weapons a few years ago and
Sadaam Hussein was only 6 months to a year away from constructing a small nuclear capability
when his plans were interrupted by the Gulf War. This is reality, not science fiction, and not the
Buffyverse. There are evil people out there who hate everyone that is not them. They will always
exist and no form of accomodation short of our deaths will appease them.
Those among us who feel the only moral option is to seek peaceful solutions may have to learn to live
with the fact that some people they know and care about are going to be the targets and possibly
victims of the violence. It will be up to them to figure out how they will react when the violence hits
them directly. It will be up to others who are not as morally idealistic to protect themselves and, in
the process, the idealists, from the danger. And I think that's fine. All violence is tragic, even that
which must be used to serve a just cause (and, well, personally, I like to live so that's just cause
enough for me). I have a great deal of respect for the idealists here because I'll never be one. I'm way
too jaded and cynical. Plus, I believe there is just way too much history that supports my realistic
view of the world. I don't wish the idealists to change their opinions one degree. Extremism on both
sides is necessary so that the majority can arrive at a practical option somewhere in the middle.
Most likely, the middle option will have the effect of minimizing the violence by containing it. What
this means is that the problem will never really be solved one way or another. Instead, the middle
ground serve only to reduce the number of casualties. Unfortunately, it will also mean accepting a
higher level of violence in our day to day lives than we were accustomed to before September 11,
2001.
With Giles only making infrequent guest appearances in the upcoming season, will Buffy be forced to
get her hands dirty, or will another Scooby step into that role--play Garak to her Sisko, or Sloane to
her Bashir?
A8
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[> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Helen, 03:31:32 09/14/01
Fri
Whoa, A8, amazing post. I've often thought Buffy is far from the Saint that she is often thought of as
being. As you point out, she has been able to occupy the moral high ground because there are those -
Giles and Faith, but also the other members of the Scooby gang, who are prepared to get their hands
dirty.
As Buffy said: "I like my evil like I like my men. Evil." If there is the slightest shade of
grey, she is confused and prevaricates (I do see it as prevarication rather than simply being too good
to, for example, kill Ben). Others then have to step in. Pangs was a prime example of this, although
it was a while ago. Confused by the origins of the spirits attacking her, she was unable to act, until it
was almost too late. The reactions of the others were telling: Spike pointed out the obvious:
"It's kill or be killed here. Take your bloody pick." Giles sympathised with the Shumash
warrior's POV, but still wanted to act. Willow channelled her mother's views on the oppression of
indigenous people, until she herself was directly threatened, upon which she became ruthless (and
felt guilty afterwards). Xander was suffering from the beginning, so he was all for the fight. And
Angel didn't even bother to acquaint himself with the origins or aims of the attacker - someone
threatened his beloved, that someone was toast.
Who will do her dirty work in the future - spoilers have suggested she'll be doing it herself. But I bet
Spikey will be right beside her (yes, all threads have started to return to Spike).
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[> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Jean, 06:26:03 09/14/01
Fri
The part of "the gift" that really made an impact on me was that in the end Buffy didn't
defeat Glory. It took Giles to adminster the final blow.
This is just like in real life. Good can never defeat evil. The only time evil is defeated is when good
people employ evil means. Dietrich Bonhoeffer realized that. That is what he means by "it is
better to do evil, than to be evil."
You talk of Deep Space Nine. I am a fan of Star Trek the Original series. The episode "the
Savage Curtain" especially the speech that Lincoln said in that episode said it all.
And then after the battle was over the alien said that he still couldn't see any difference between the
methods that good uses and evil uses. Kirk ask the alien what did the alien offer the bad guys had
they won. The alien replied power. Kirk replied, you offered me the lives of my crew.
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[> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Brian, 09:00:49
09/14/01 Fri
America talks of the war on terrorists. Eventually, we will take action, and it will be long and bloody,
and good people will die as we carry out our vengence. We will use fire to fight fire, and will we
become no different from the people we are fighting?
Buffy uses fire to fight fire. She slays vampires, demons, etc. that prey on Mankind. Will she be
tainted by her actions?
This year she did have Giles to do the dirty work, the wet work. But what about the future?
When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back. But maybe that's ok. We saw that Buffy was
willing to sacrifice her life to save Mankind. Maybe she will be ok with sacrificing part of her soul so
that others may live and prosper, and be free.
A long time ago I wrote a poem about Sampson. If I find it, I would like to post it. The last line goes
something like: "And he smiles, content, as walls come crashing down."
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[> [> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Dedalus,
13:57:35 09/14/01 Fri
As I said, I can be on both sides of every equation. I want blood and peace at the same time.
I don't know where this is headed. Nothing like stating the obvious. I'm just not sure this thing can
be won. We declared war, but we don't even know against who. We spend one minute singing
"God bless America," and the next suiting up to go to war. America has long claimed
itself as a Christian nation, yet this is not very representative of it. According to things like the fifth
chapter of Matthew, I think, where it says if one cheek is slapped, we should turn the other to be
struck also. Or if someone goes to steal one piece of clothing, we should give him our robe as well.
How exactly does that fit in with a nation going to war? And pretty gleefully so, according to the
polls.
That was just my point about people not really examining their beliefs in times like this, merely
frantically diving back into the old ones. And not even doing that well. I'm not saying non-violence
even works in today's world, I'm just pointing out inconsistencies.
If we were truly and honestly evaluating our beliefs, I'm sure someone, somewhere, anywhere, would
be pointing out the ironic nature of our position.
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[> [> [> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Susan,
17:08:36 09/14/01 Fri
"America has long claimed itself as a Christian nation, yet this is not very representative of
it."
We didn't treat Germany in a Christian matter then, I guess.
What a ironic argument with all the talk of separation of Church and state. I thought we WEREN'T
supposesd to mix religion and politics.
And by the way, Detrich Bonhoeffer was able to reconcile his strong Christian principles with his
participation in a illegal plot to Murder the elected leader of his country.
To escape sin may be the ulitimate guilt.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... --
Dedalus, 19:56:07 09/14/01 Fri
Well, it made sense to me ...
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[> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Mary, 17:37:35 09/14/01
Fri
I have great respect for idealists like Buffy. I feel there are those out there who really "aren't
like us".
But I also feel like there are those out there who use "idealism" as an excuse. There are
those who pretend to be "idealistic" to avoid doing what needs to be done. They aren't
really "idealists", just cowards.
I have great respect for the "Sloans" out there. The "Giles" out there. We
need Section 31. We need Section One.
Things are going to get a lot more ugly before they get better. Most of us know not of war. We have
no idea.
It is better to do evil, than to be evil. No mercy until victory is achieved.
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[> [> Re: An attempt to apply the Jossverse to our Realverse tragedy... -- Jean, 18:08:02
09/14/01 Fri
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is my favorite show.
La Femme Nikita is my second favorite.
Both shows have philosophies that we can learn much from.
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[> We might have to fight on their level, but there is a difference. -- Jean, 17:56:19 09/14/01
Fri
A8, anyone who doesn't understand that should go to the following link:
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/hoskins/85/ep-77.htm
Here are the key quotes to consider:
"One matter further, gentlemen.", continues Lincoln. "We fight on their level --
with trickery, brutality -- finality. We match their evil." (The screen flashes to a view of the
rock being absorbing the unfolding drama) Kirk looks at the figure of Lincoln questioningly. "I
know, James. I was reputed to be a gentle man. But I was commander-in-chief during the four
bloodiest years of my country's history. I gave orders that sent --- a hundred thousand men to their
death -- at the hands of their brothers." Lincoln pauses for a moment, lost in thought - then
continues. "*sigh* There's no honorable way to kill - no gentle way to destroy. There's nothing
good in war except its ending. And *sigh again*, you're fighting for the lives of your crew."
"You are the survivors.", it states flatly. "The others have run off. It would seem
that evil retreats when forcibly confronted. However. You have failed to demonstrate to me any other
difference between your philosophies. Your good and your evil use the same methods. Achieve the
same results. Do you have an explanation?"
You established the methods, and the goals!", Kirk exclaims, pointing at the being.
"For you to use as you chose.", answers the creature.
Kirk demands, "What did you offer the others, if they won?"
"What they wanted most. Power."
Kirk lowers his head and explains, "You offered me -- the lives of my crew."
Anyone who says that we "will be just like them" just doesn't understand. We must do
what we have to regardless of how much it might offend some people's sensibilities. We must send a
message. NEVER AGAIN! NEVER AGAIN!
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[> [> Re: We might have to fight on their level, but there is a difference. -- Jean, 18:04:26
09/14/01 Fri
By the way A8, I believe that your post is the most articulate discussion of this subject that I have
read for some time. Too many people on this board seem to want to turn away. To cocoon themselves
in fantasy and avoid the very real evil outside the door.
A "return to normancy" plays into the enemy's hands. For all that evil needs to flourish
is for good people to do nothing. We must not turn away. We must face reality head on, for it will not
go away. Just like Glory didn't go away. Buffy had to face her head on.
September 11, 2001, nothing can ever be the same again.
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[> [> [> Thanks, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across. -- A8, 19:08:53 09/14/01
Fri
I understand exactly what you've been saying. It is very alid. Everybody's viewpoint here is valid.
Everybody is going to have to deal with this in their own way. The sheer enormity of what happened
on Tuesday is probably too much for a lot of people to process. I'm still having a hard time believing
it even though I was sure the last time the WTC was bombed that it was only a matter of time before
a bigger, more tragic act would be committed. Honestly, I thought a "dirty" nuke or
chemical weapon would have been detonated here by some nut or another by now.
I honestly don't think that anyone here is cocooning themselves or doing the ole ostrich head in the
sand routine. Some people have very strong convictions against the use of violence. Believe it or not,
there were many conscientious objectors during WWII, and some did prison time for following their
convictions. Many are whole heartedly against the death penalty. And I respect them for that. There
are some people out there, I'm sure, who believe in summary execution. That's an extreme position
that I would have a hard time ever agreeing with under any circumstances. While I have my
opinions on things, I always tend to fall in the gray areas. Call me wishy washy or just human, but
these issues are too serious and complex to merit knee jerk responses.
What happens from this time forward is largely out of our hands, except that we can live well,
without fear and pursue with gusto those things that make our lives worth living. We live in a new
world now. Our freedom, security and basic beliefs will be tested. We may find ourselves questioning
our own morals at times, which I think is healthier than being so sure of ourselves that we make
some fatal irreversible mistake. In any event, we must keep our heads, respect our fellow US citizens
(however different their opinions are from ours) and fellow world citizens no matter how different
their cultures and politics are from ours. Any action we take should be within the bounds of reason
lest we become like the mob that 'lynched' Angel in 'Have You Now Or Have You Ever Been.' We
must always be conscious of the gravity of the use of violence even when we are certain it is justified.
Like I said, whatever we do, I don't believe it can bring us absolute security, safety, or peace of mind.
That's very unsettling.
All I've really ever wanted to do myself is make a little music, share interesting experiences with
friends, and weather life's ups and downs in peace. Good books, good art, good music, and thought-
provoking (oh yeah, irreverent, silly, and frivilous as well) discussions about a relatively insignificant
TV show (in the overall scheme of things) is not too much to ask for in life.
Vive la difference! (I have absolutely no idea how that is supposed to be spelled--sue me).
A8
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[> [> [> [> Pssssst....A8! -- Wisewoman, 19:31:17 09/14/01 Fri
I'll apologize if I'm wrong, but I think it's the trolls again. Susan, Mary, Jean--all quoting and linking
Bonhoeffer...mighty suspicious, I think.
(And Susan was on last night as the counterpart to "Sean the Troll")
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Don't leave out "Maple" -- d'Herblay, 19:33:24 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I caught it. I just didn't want to much taint on what I thought was
an okay essay. -- A8, 19:38:19 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> I give up. No more heavy lifting for me. Just partying on the
Titanic from now on! Woo-Hoo! -- A8, 19:40:19 09/14/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's like magic... -- Wisewoman, 19:43:47 09/14/01 Fri
..as soon as you mention the word "troll," they disintegrate faster'n a dusted vamp!
I sympathize with you, A8. It was a great initial post...
;o)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across. -- Jean,
19:48:01 09/14/01 Fri
The only reason the "idealists" out there can exist is because of those who are willing to
do what it takes.
It almost seems selfish for the idealists to hold on to their ideals as they are dependent on others
who are willing to give a bit of their soul. Sacrifice their principles for the sake of others.
All we want from life is basically like you said. We don't want to harm others. We want to have
friends, enjoy various methods of entertainment, get married, have children, but unfortunately evil
has a way of disrupting all of that.
You say you respect "idealists". I do as well. True ones. But I have to admit that I respect
just a little bit more the Sloans, the Giles, for without them we just simply would not exist. It is
because of them that we have the luxury to have "idealists" in our society.
There will be a time again in our society to present our "idealists" front and center. But
now isn't the time. Now is Ripper Time.
By the way, since you are such a Star Trek fan, I have another episode for you to consider. Again,
from the original series, and it is called The City on the Edge of Forever.
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/hoskins/85/ep-28.htm
McCoy goes back in time to 1930 and saves the life of a "idealist" named Miss Keeler. By
doing so he made it possible for evil to take over earth.
It wasn't the time for an "idealist". Nor is it now!
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[> Re: My Last Word on This -- Dedalus, 20:30:24 09/14/01 Fri
There are no easy answers for this thing. And I agree, troll or no, now is the time to do what needs to
be done. Unfortunate, but there it is. And our resolve is strong.
I had a good opportunity to watch PB tv tonight, and Charlie Rose was hosting this special with all
these people talking. It featured Bill Moyers interviewing a NY columnist. I kept hoping he would
mention Campbell, but he didn't. The interview was great though. He spoke of how NY was such a
melting pot already, that fanaticism and holy wars weren't going to get very far with NYers. He also
mentioned how important humor was in all this, humor and self-righteousness being antithetical in
most cases. It was great. Charlie Rose also had several Muslims on there, talking about their faith.
And the general consensus is is that we will not give into blanket accusations and feed into hatred.
Isolated incidents maybe, but we are part of an international world now. The Americans interviewed
seemed genuinely concerned and they talked about how important it is to teach our kids about other
cultures.
The one striking thing was that Moyers mentioned Jerry Falwell had told Pat Robertson today that
this terrorist attack had happened because God was punishing us for allowing women to be on the
supreme court and because we were becoming so tolerant of gays. Moyers muttered something about
now we know who is responsible, and with all the irony in the world turned to the camera and said,
"Let God be praised."
This is going to be unlike any war fought, because we are in a position we've never been in before.
Never before have Americans been so conscious or so respectful of other cultures. Never have we had
the internet linking people together. Never have we had so many nations coming together and
condemning such an act. No one wants this to happen except maybe a handful of fanatics.
It just seems to me - idealist and realist in one - that we have turned a corner somewhere. I can't
explain it. I just have some great, unconscious feeling that this is so painful but in the long run
things will be better. No one wants to live in terror. Not even the Taliban. We are going to fight, and
we may hate the ones we fight, but we are not going to hate anyone else. The barriers are coming
down like never before - between men and women, blacks and whites, gays and straights. When have
we ever been more accepting? Traveling around, the Dalai Lama sensed this fundamental change
too. We're coming out of our isolation, and slowly realizing we're part of the world. All of us.
With so many of our Cold War enemies gone, and even China coming to our aid on this, we stand at
the threshold of something remarkable. There is so much solidarity going on here, unlike anything
I've ever seen. Maybe it took an act so horrific in order to shake us out of our complacency one last
time, to break down those few scattered, remaining prejudices and tribal hatreds. This I hope. The
idea of religious tolerance is especially important to me personally. And if the Pat Robertsons and
Jerry Falwells of the world want us to go invade Palestine and force those people at gunpoint to
convert to Christianity, as Moyers said, the only "kindred spirits" they would find are in
the Taliban regime.
This is not going to change life as we know it forever. The more things change, the more they stay
the same. There may very well be retaliation, but I don't think they will ever manage this scale
again. I truly don't. I think we will be successful in our campaigns, and I think it will help make the
world realize we don't want to live like this. We are at the forefront of the world's stage, and so far
are presenting ourselves pretty well. If we could come to some sort of terms with what has been
going on in the Middle East for so long, I think we would be coming to terms with our own selves,
since our own religions began there. And once we get that out of the way, the univ