August 2001 posts
Just to be silly 'coz
I'm bored... -- Solitude1056, 08:03:14 08/23/01 Thu
I've enjoyed scrolling through everyone's bios, off the FAQ page.
And although I know there's still folks who've not sent in a list,
I thought I'd amuse everyone with a little bit o' statistics early
on a Thursday morning.
With a total of 37 folks who've listed themselves so far...
46% describe themselves as creative types - either music, writing,
the visual arts, or theater. (I counted any reference to the above,
even if it's not what you do for a living.)
41% are 30 years old or less, 43% are between 31 & 45, 16% are
46 or older.
51% of the listers didn't identify their gender. Of those who
did... 44% are female, and 56% are male.
and no, I did not count how many times folks mentioned Spike!
(I thought about it, and decided one little spreadsheet was enough.)
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[> Re: Just to be silly 'coz I'm bored... -- Nina, 10:36:05
08/23/01 Thu
"and no, I did not count how many times folks mentioned Spike!
(I thought about it, and decided one little spreadsheet was enough.)"
JBone's comment in his profile just makes me laugh at myself :"Compared
to the Buffy/Angel junk I've seen on other boards, the Spike crap
here isn't so bad." So I try to keep it down now! :)
you're bored.. with all those emails your receiving? :) Ah la
la!!!! Thanks for doing the statistics.... always fun to look
at our little family and check who likes what! :)
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[> [> Re: Just to be silly 'coz I'm bored... -- Brian, 11:01:01
08/23/01 Thu
This thread reminds me. As a "Poster family" are we
still planning on having a gathering sometime in the future? We
can all wear our pictures from the Bios as our nametags?!
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[> [> [> Torcon 3, Aug 28 - Sep 1, 2003 in Toronto??
-- Wisewoman, 11:34:53 08/23/01 Thu
I know we were going to look for upcoming SF conventions to see
if we could piggyback on one of them for our season finale fling.
The only one I can find for 2003 is in late August in Toronto,
the World Science Fiction Convention, Torcon III. It would be
late, because we'd all have seen the finale for the season (or
the whole show, please no!) by then, but people might be better
able to get vacation time than in May, and heaven knows we'll
all be bored silly by that time, even if there is an eighth season
of BtVS to look forward to in October 2003.
Torcon III - Worldcon 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Guests of
Honour: George R.R. Martin, Frank Kelly Freas, Mike Glyer, Spider
Robinson and Robert Bloch. Membership: $170. Contact: PO Box 3,
Station A, Toronto, ON, M5W 1A2, Canada, E-mail: info@torcon3.on.ca
Webpage: http://www.torcon3.on.ca
Whaddaya think?
;o)
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[> [> [> [> hmm. wouldn't BtVS be "horror"?
-- Solitude1056, 11:50:45 08/23/01 Thu
Well, except for a few Queller demons... do they count?
Actually, I've got my hopes set on finding a way to convince some
of the writers to show up. I'd love to corner them in a room with
about 70 of us in a Q&A about the why's and wherefor's of some
of the plot developments and character arcs over the last however-many-seasons.
I mean, meeting the actors would be nice, but the folks I really
want to talk to are the evil minds who come up with this stuff!
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: hmm. wouldn't BtVS be "horror"?
-- purplegrrl, 12:51:03 08/23/01 Thu
***I mean, meeting the actors would be nice, but the folks I really
want to talk to are the evil minds who come up with this stuff!***
I'm right there with you, Sol.
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[> [> [> [> meanwhile, is anyone else going to the
Millennium Philcon next week? -- anom, 13:25:43 08/23/01 Thu
Next week already? Yike!
Anyway, you know there'll be Buffy/Angel-related events there.
Maybe we can arrange an ATPoBtVS get-together. Some of us might
find out we already know each other!
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[> [> [> [> [> so *nobody* else is going to Worldcon
next week?! -- anom, 22:26:10 08/25/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> off to Worldcon -- anom, 11:15:47
08/28/01 Tue
Tomorrow, but I may not have time to get on the board then. I'm
sure many threads started in my absence will be gone by the time
I get back, which is just as well 'cuz I'll have sooo much else
to catch up with. (Being a freelancer, I don't get paid vacations,
so I'll have to plunge right in when I get back & make up for
lost time.)
I'll miss yez...but after the con it'll be that much closer to
new eps! And there'll be Buffy panels to give me a mini-fix meanwhile.
And thanks to this board I'll have good q's. & comments for the
panelists!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Have a great time, anom!
:o) -- Wisewoman, 17:52:45 08/28/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> Um, Wisewoman, Robert Bloch died in 1994
-- d'Herblay, 13:34:20 08/23/01 Thu
So I doubt he's gonna make it.
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[> [> [> [> [> Yikes!! That was copied directly
from their site and pasted in... -- Wisewoman, 17:01:47 08/23/01
Thu
...d'ya think maybe I should tell them?
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[> [> [> [> [> I sent them an e-mail... -- Wisewoman,
17:28:56 08/23/01 Thu
...it'll be interesting to see what they reply. They also have
a web page for bios of their guests of honour, with the notation
that Bloch's bio is "coming soon!"
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Their response... -- Wisewoman,
19:15:33 08/23/01 Thu
is as follows:
Robert Bloch is being Honoured as our GoHst of Honour. (a play
on ghost).
He was at the First 2 Torcons as a Guest and had he been alive,
he would have been at Torcon 3.
It just would not be a Torcon without his presence, albeit not
physical.
Peter Jarvis Chair, Torcon 3
Well, that clears that up!?
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[> [> happy to be referenced -- JBone, 18:22:03 08/23/01
Thu
I must say that I am just a little more than a little bit surprised
that a quote of mine was used in a more neutral light than a negative
one. As a depicted "hell hound", don't worry, I kinda
like the illustration, I've always felt my own low brow brand
of humor often fell on deaf ears. This is always a problem when
it comes to the written word, especially for me. I'm not a college
educated philosopher, nor do I worry about what those who are,
think. Anyway, thanks for cutting down your Spike references.
It makes it a lot easier for me to check out a thread when Spike
isn't in the title. More now than before as I don't have the time
to check out every thread. Long live the farmer!
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[> [> [> Re: Your picture -- Isabel, 19:28:26 08/23/01
Thu
JBone, I always thought that your picture was Oz as a werewolf.
I could be wrong because I missed the episode with the Hell Hounds
in it. (They seem to be using main or recurring characters so
far, not random monsters.)
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[> [> [> [> Masq, a little verification please...
-- JBone, 19:34:58 08/23/01 Thu
I always assumed it was one of the hell hounds from "The
Prom". I guess it could be Oz or another werewolf type.
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[> [> [> [> [> Oz-wolf, the midnight howler --
Masq, 21:37:38 08/23/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks Masq, you just gave
me the name of my... -- JBone, 19:45:54 08/25/01 Sat
fantasy football team. Let's go "Midnight Howlers!"
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[> [> [> Re: happy to be referenced -- Nina, 12:01:32
08/24/01 Fri
Happy to reference you! :)
You know we all need to come down to earth from time to time and
it's nice to be reminded! (doesn't mean it will be easy! ;) and
what can I say, your way to describe the "crap" is just
too darn cute to protest! I tell you it cracks me up every time!
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[> Hey, 56% male, that's lots of guys talking about Spike..;)
-- Rufus, 14:33:26 08/23/01 Thu
I think the men on this board just can't help themselves they
must just love Spike....cause "he are kewl" (that was
for that Diet Coke pusher Sam).
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[> [> Rufus, let me help with ATLTS -- Slayrunt, 17:17:50
08/23/01 Thu
Well, I for one must admit "Spike are kewl" but I like
Angelus too. The EVIL guys get the good lines:"I found it
in a quaint little shop girl","lets see, what rhymes
with lungs?"
But truely, you have to admit that Spike a poser. Yeh, he killed
people but he just waited a rep, he would have been just as happy
to be a famous poet. ;-)
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[> [> [> Re: Rufus, let me help with ATLTS -- Rufus,
17:35:02 08/23/01 Thu
Yes, what is it about the dangerous guys that gets everyone's
attention and adoration? I don't get it all of the time but I
do love a good redemption scenario, so I'm just like everyone
else. I think what the bad guy does is talk back and act in a
way that we know we personally wouldn't but do consider when dealing
with day to day life. These bad guys get away with more than murder,
they make us like them while doing the things society tells us
are wrong.
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[> [> lies, damn lies, and statistics -- Solitude1056, 08:40:19
08/24/01 Fri
Actually, only about half the posters identified a gender, so
that 56% male is not accurate for the group as a whole. That 56%
is of the people who identified themselves as a specific gender.
In fact, it's: 19 people did not identify their gender 8 identified
themselves as female 10 identified themselves as male
I didn't go by people's screen alias to determine this, but only
whether they self-identified a gender. Being one of the folks
who didn't say one way or another, I just thought it was an amusing
statistic. The only thing it can definitively be said to demonstrate
is the fact that roughly half of us didn't see reason to include
gender in the first place.
Bored
here, too, so a couple questions.... -- dream of the consortium,
10:28:23 08/23/01 Thu
Anyone know anything about the nursery rhyme "Little Miss
Muffet"? Any ideas why the writers might have chosen that
name to describe Dawn (one of the mind-sucked calls her that,
I believe, and then Glory says in one of her fits that "someone
is going to have to sit on her tuffet and make this birthing stop')?
Normally, everything mentioned in the Buffyverse has some sort
of meaning, particularly if it's referenced more than once. (Except
the CheeseMan, of course.) The rhyme itself doesn't offer anything
obvious; Dawn has not yet been "frightened away." Anyone
up on the origins or coded meanings of nursery rhymes? (Sorry
if this has come up before - I haven't read the archives.)
I also want to ask a question I asked way down at the bottom of
the page and didn't get any response to - maybe I'll have better
results up here? In a recent interview linked by someone on this
board (I've forgotten who and where), Joss mentioned being influenced
in his thinking about Buffy by Richard Slotkin, Professor of English
at Wesleyan University. I took a fantastic class with him a few
years ago, and, though my memory is shaky, it certainly made sense
that Joss had been thinking about Slotkin's ideas when developing
Buffy. Slotkin believed one of the great sources of American mythical
archetype was James Fenimore Cooper's Leatherstocking Tales. I
remember him discussing the origin of the hair color symbolism
(blond = innocence, purity, civilization; dark = danger, sensuality,
savagery) that has been discussed a good bit in relation to the
show. (By the way, though I realise it wasn't planned that way,
the pattern fall apart is a great way in Spike's case - he's a
brunette pretending to be a blond. Or is he?) He also talked at
length (and Joss mentions in the interview) about the idea of
the "man who knows Indians", the civilized man whose
is at the same time outside society, the man who knows the ways
of "savages" and understands the dark complexity of
things that normal men do not. This man is a lonely figure, and
a romantic one, and usually has friends on both sides of the boundaries
of society, but knows more than both. Slotkin's favorite contemporary
example at the time was Hans Solo. I wonder if he mentions Buffy
now. Anyway, I've never read Slotkin's books (Gunfight Nation,
Regeneration through Violence) and I was wondering if anyone else
had and had any insights into Buffy as a reflection of the American
myth as a result. Also, any other examples of the "man who
knows Indians"? I would offer Harvey Kietel in the Piano.
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[> Little Miss Muffet -- Wisewoman, 11:55:52 08/23/01 Thu
From an essay by A.R. Jones on Sylvia Plath's poem "Daddy:"
The dilemma of the old woman who lived in the shoe, of Dr. Foster,
or of Miss Muffet terrified by the spider, is largely contained
and appears acceptable and almost reassuring in the comforts of
an incantatory rhythmical pattern, for order is imposed, often,
indeed, superimposed, on an otherwise fortuitous and even terrifying
reality. Also the subject of the nursery rhyme tends to accept
his situation with something like a matter-of-fact stoicism; often
he seems to co-operate with the events that beset him.
Hmmmm,don't know if that's any help, or not...
;o)
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[> [> Re: Little Miss Muffet -- Shiver, 17:52:44 08/23/01
Thu
http://www.lgny.com/susiedaycolumn163.html
A different side of Little Miss Muffet (see WIllow thread below)
L0L
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[> pop-culture knowing indians -- Solitude1056, 11:59:52 08/23/01
Thu
I didn't see The Piano. However, your comment about "knowing
both sides" makes me think of the recent stream o' crossover-style
movies... except in this case, it's a cultural crossover. Most
recently, it's been that of Asian/American culture-clash and culture-amalgamation,
where an American (the blonde?) has to work in partnership with
someone of Asian descent or origin. Despite our global culture,
the Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc, etc, cultures are still
deeply rooted in mystery to the average American moviegoer.
Some try for it & don't succeed, because they're just too blatantly
playing that game. Hm, look at Steven Segal's movies. Always playing
some dark mysterious guy who's familiar with Asian culture but
sure talks & walks like a joe from the Bronx. That damn too-long-running
show with the guy who's supposed to be a Shaolin travelling across
the country helping folks, hey, it's a martial arts version of
Touched by an Angel. Yipes. And oddly, Chow Yun Fat - in the Replacement
Killers - got the mythic figure that you're talking about. Of
course, it helps that CYF is already a phenomenal actor, despite
the fact that it was a pretty throwaway saturday matinee kind
of movie.
But the movie didn't seek to play up that knowing-indians mythology,
which is perhaps why it worked. There's a good dose of American
City culture, and buried within it is a Chinatown, replete with
its mysteries, different language and traditions, and a very different
way of interacting. I wouldn't say CYF's character walks the border
between both - he's definitely of one, predominantly, but in his
interaction with the american characters, he reaches across both,
while containing the original (chinese) culture within him at
all times. Then again, I'd watch CYF read a grocery list - hell,
I even paid $8 to see him in Anna & the King, a truly momentous
waste of CYF & Jodie Foster if I ever saw one.
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[> [> ok, so actually it was reversed -- Solitude1056, 21:32:03
08/23/01 Thu
Discussing this thread with the Peanut Gallery, and his point
was that the Replacement Killers wasn't the usual man who knows
indians... because in that case, CYF - who is Chinese, like the
director - was coming from the civilization, and we were the indians.
Running around, hollering, gesturing wildly, going headlong into
a mad dash for whatever now. The chinese characters, on the other
hand, were in more refined and delicately powerful abstractly
decorated sets, with a definite precise behavior and language,
even when speaking english. That, and considering that we only
recently (in the eyes of the Chinese) discovered mass printing
processes and paper-making, among other things, puts us in the
lesser-civilization (or at least younger civilization). We still
have too much rough-and-tumble pioneer ways in our culture, compared
to the oldest and largest bureacracy in the world.
In that sense, my housemate's arguing, CYF's departure at the
end of the movie was a return to civilization, taking back a boon
(the forged passports). We, as the american audience, were standing
in the position of the indians, watching the Hero depart for his
homelands.
I wonder what other stories/movies out there have turned the 'man
who knows indians' on its head and watched from the POV of the
indians?
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[> Don't know what I'm talking about but also bored, so...
-- Lurker Becoming Restless, 12:43:30 08/23/01 Thu
Not sure about 'Miss Muffet' but Dawn has also been referred to
as a 'Little Red Riding Hood' - maybe it's a more general thing
about vulnerability, childhood (innocence) and being separate
from reality.
As for the Slotkin stuff: I'm English and so probably way off
the mark when it comes to American myth, but isn't Angel closer
than Buffy to the 'man who knows Indians' (can 'Indians' be substituted
for 'demons' here?)? Buffy is inside civilisation as he never
could be, but he began there and has had a great deal more time
to get to know the 'Indian' world. He is also a much more isolated
figure - to me Buffy is very much a part of society (although
admittedly season five has seen her drift away from it a little
more).
Shouldn't the 'man who knows Indians' be a little dark? Buffy
is often portrayed as being an innocent (but, again, I guess that
changed a little in season five) and she tends to rely on knowledge
supplied to her by other people.
I suppose both of them have aspects of it - oh no, wishy-washy
relativism again. Time to move on.
With the blonde / dark dichotomy, I think an interesting aspect
is how they attract / repel one another. Buffy brought Angel back
to civilisation to some degree. Also, Spike ultimately chose to
leave Drusilla (very dangerous, savage) to be with Buffy (innocent,
pure). Could this be because he is trying to be something he is
not (hair)?
But then there's Willow and Oz. Guess symbolism can only take
us so far. I've just got to keep telling myself, 'it's only a
theory', 'it's only a theory'...
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[> [> Re: Don't know what I'm talking about but also bored,
so... -- Wisewoman, 13:17:17 08/23/01 Thu
If anyone is "the man who knows Indians" I'd think it
would be Anya, with her encyclopedic knowledge of demons. Is she
discounted because she used to be one?
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[> [> [> Re: Don't know what I'm talking about but also
bored, so... -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 13:49:24 08/23/01 Thu
From a point of view of sheer volume of knowledge, Anya probably
knows more about demons than anyone else. She doesn't really live
in both worlds as much as Buffy and Angel, though. As you implied,
she's like 'the man who used to be an Indian' - a convert or something...oh,
well, there's a lesson in how to stretch a perfectly good metaphor
to breaking point.
But, anyway, I don't think she's discounted because she used to
BE one but because she USED to be one, if that makes any sense
(can't do bold; sorry).
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[> Re: Bored here, too, so a couple questions.... -- Humanitas,
14:05:18 08/23/01 Thu
The "Little Miss Muffet" reference goes all the way
back to the Shared dream of Buffy and Faith in S3: "Little
Miss Muffet counting down to 7-3-0." Dauwn isn't Miss Muffet,
she's "Curds and Whey" (The Real Me, I think). Buffy
is Miss Muffet, and Glory is the spider, who "frightens away,"
or kills Buffy, 730 theoretical days from the original reference.
That's how I read it, anyway. :)
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[> [> Re: Bored here, too, so a couple questions.... --
Rufus, 14:24:08 08/23/01 Thu
I thought that Dawn was supposed to be Miss Muffet, the one to
sit on the tuffet (use of the key)but Buffy took her place. So
I still think Dawn is Miss Muffet as she is still the key in human
form, the potential for her to be keylike is still there.
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[> [> Re: Bored here, too, so a couple questions.... --
Isabel, 19:24:17 08/23/01 Thu
Humanitas, you just blew my mind with that analogy. It totally
makes sense that Dawn is the 'Curds and Whey.'
But the way I read it, if Dawn is the Curds and Whey then Glory
is Miss Muffet and Buffy is the Spider.
My reasoning is: Glory's entire motivation this season was to
use the Key's energy. She wanted to bleed Dawn. Glory came to
Sunnydale/Earth (sat on her tuffet) to do so. The Spider came
along and frightened Miss Muffet away, so presumably she stopped
eating when she ran. Buffy is the one who got in Glory's face
all season and stopped her use of Dawn. Glory was all, "I've
been fighting a Vampire Slayer! How gauche! Ugh!"
Unless Giles is the Spider because he's the one who ultimately
stopped Glory.
Until now, I just thought it was a cutesy way of referring to
Dawn. Cool.
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[> [> [> That became my take on it also. -- OnM, 20:26:06
08/23/01 Thu
I.e., Glory was Miss Muffett, Dawn was Curds and Whey, and Buffy
was the Spider. I think that twisting the characters around so
that they don't fit the more obvious interpretations of the rhyme
was to deliberately play with our heads and misdirect us. The
original Faith/Buffy dream that states 'Little Miss Muffett counting
down from 730' seems to apply first to Buffy, then later to Dawn,
but when you think about it since all three of them came together
at the critical moment, the '730' could apply just as well to
any of them. Glory, however, made the statement about 'someone
sitting down on their tuffett and making this birthing stop',
and this makes sense in that Glory detested humans and wanted
them to go away ASAP, which opening the portal ('eating her Curds
and Whey') would achieve. So, if Glory is Miss Muffett, and Dawn
is the C&W, then by default Buffy must be the Spider, and
indeed she 'frightened Miss Muffett away'. I would note that Buffy
was-- eventually-- the only one who was able to induce any kind
of true fear into Glory, as evidenced by Glory finally asking
Buffy to stop beating her.
Also, the 'tuffett' itself could be interpreted as the tower Dawn
was to be sacrified on, and that curds and whey are related to
cheese, which Buffy is known to be very fond of.
OK, next overanalysis, por favor!
;)
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[> Re: the man who knows indians -- mundusmundi, 15:37:56 08/23/01
Thu
You may possibly have been thinking about my post from a couple
weeks ago (in the third archieves), or else Dedalus's essay on
the subject. One of the Campbellians around here could doubtlessly
explain this better, but I see the "man who knows indians"
archetype as akin to what Campbell called the "master of
both worlds." Dedalus and I discussed a bit of this way down
in the "Respect my authority" thread, where he explained
that the Hero often starts in "civilized" society, sometimes
as royalty, but will either on his own accord or through coercion
enter the hinterlands and learn the life of the natives there.
Then, when he returns home, the Hero has (presumably) the wisdom
and breadth of experience to live wisely. (Usually there's some
kind of elixir that he brings back; sometimes just simple knowledge
is enough.)
I see Buffy as the Hero in Progress with her adventure, with allies
both human (the Scoobies) and inhuman (Angel, Spike, even Dawn,
one could argue). Part of the path Joss seems to be leading her
on is understanding the dark side of her own nature and the ambiguity
of good and evil. I really don't see her as a "reflection
of the American myth." Hers seems to derive from an older,
more primal, more mysterious source.
An obvious example of this archetype would be John Dunbar in Dances
with Wolves. There are plenty of others, which I'm sure I'll think
about later tonight while half-asleep.
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[> [> Re: Dances with Demons -- Dedalus, 22:19:35 08/23/01
Thu
I was just thinking about our discussion on my way down this thread
mundusmundi!
My knowledge of Slotkin is pretty limited - I've found bits and
pieces of Regeneration Through Violence on the net, but that's
about it. Still, I was thinking about mentioning him in another
essay or something. Actually, I agree that Buffy is more a modern
response to the American myth of profit via violence (killin'
injuns and grizzlies and conquerin' nature) than a mimetic re-enactment
of it. Buffy does not succeed in The Gift through violence, after
all. More on this later.
As for the Master of Two Worlds, fascinating concept. It has to
do with the whole cyclical nature of the hero's adventure - the
leaving, the intiation/adventure, and the return. There are usually
two worlds, the human, and the divine, that have been seperated
somehow. The hero comes as a kind of super psychotherapist to
heal the rift. In the individual psyche, such a split was what
Jung called dissociation, and could manifest as neurosis or psychosis,
depending on the severity. Anyway, this is sometimes what is happening
in macrocosm in the world of myth. Yet I think a key point in
both psychology and myth is that in the end, whether it be the
conscious or unconcious mind or Eden and the Post-fallen world,
the two are actually aspects of the same thing. As Campbell would
say, "The realm of the gods is actually a hidden dimension
of the world we know." The night and the day are not totally
seperate, only different, if that makes sense.
The hero has to have his foot in both camps in order to bring
those broken halves together.
For instance, this plays out in The Phantom Menace on a number
of levels. Jar Jar is somewhat the "man who knows the indians,"
or in this case the Gungans, though he also is one. He walks in
two worlds but belongs to neither, and this is represented literally
by the fact that he is amphibious. Actually, this plays out with
Amidala, too. Thrown out of her Eden-like paradise of Naboo by
patriarchal (and apparently reptilian) Neimodian usurpers, she
is forced to split into, in the form of Queen Amidala and handmaiden
Padme. She has fallen into the world of opposites. Both she and
Jar Jar are outcasts in a sense, thus it makes sense that they
bond on board the starship heading for Tatooine. The splitting
of Amidala's character is also a clear metaphor for the shapeshifting
anima, the feminine aspect of the masculine psyche as she plays
out the whole "meeting of the goddess" motif for Anakin.
Anyway, it is the two of them that make the symbiont circle Obi-Wan
spoke of a reality. If you notice, the Gungan council as well
as the Naboo council are arranged in a half-circle, incomplete
in and of themselves. Everything comes together in the Sacred
Grove, with Amidala assimilating both her role as Queen and handmaiden
into one whole, and doing the same with the Gungans and the Naboo.
The two worlds are thus brought together, and are really the same.
I would argue that Anakin does the same thing only with the Force
at the end of Return of the Jedi.
I think both Buffy and Angel would fit perfectly in the "man
who knows the indians" category.
Above all else, and as I'm getting into in my next essay, I think
Buffy is first and foremost a psychological or spiritual quest
for wholeness.
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[> [> [> Re: One last thing ... -- Dedalus, 22:38:15
08/23/01 Thu
I recall Slotkin talking about the "town tamer" motif
- basically what most of Clint Eastwood's early movies were about.
There's a town or settlement. People are happy. Then the outlaws
come, or the law itself turns against the populace, and all kind
of misery ensues. Lone hero rides into town, shoots up some saloons,
and takes care of business. This is all followed by a liesurely
ride off into the sunset.
I know we've got some people here that remember the very first
airing of Buffy. The initial "prologues" or whatever
you want to call them spoke of a town or city enduring a series
of murders, then a mysterious woman comes to town (such as Lucy
Hanover), and again, takes care of business. This is classic "town
tamer" stuff.
It's about carving out a place for civilization in what is essentially
a wilderness. This is sort of what Campbell talked about when
he said that the first hero archetypes went about killing monsters
and making way for humanity's hold on the world.
I think one of Whedon's ultimate twists - not just on the genre
- but on Western myth as a whole, is his use of a monster slayer
in the middle of an affluent suburban high school. There is no
more black and white, us vs. them, the calvary riding after Geronimo.
The demons are now all manifestations of our fears and prejudices.
And they walk among us. The wild, savage land that has to be "tamed"
is not a rough wilderness replete with coyotes and snakes and
such, but high school! Thus, we've become victims of our socialization
process, our own "civilization."
I'm sure I would have more interesting things to say if it wasn't
so bloody late.
(And just so you know, I had a history prof who I took for like
three semesters straight that used "bloody" every other
word, I did not liberate it from Spike)
What
is your definition of an anti-hero? Is Spike? -- Jack_McCoy, 16:57:07
08/23/01 Thu
I have never really understood the concept of an anti-hero. I
mean, I know its someone who isn't your classic hero (like Superman
or Buffy), but exactly what does it mean? Is Batman one, because
he uses fear and intimidation to fight evil (and if so, does that
make Angel one?). Is Spike one, because he does good for selfish
reasons?
Anyway, what do you all think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What is your definition of an anti-hero? Is Spike? --
Cactus Watcher, 17:13:54 08/23/01 Thu
In my book an anti-hero is some one who is morally ambiguous,
but who through experience with "good" and "evil"
characters ends up deciding to make "good" choices.
Han Solo is a classic example. Spike is headed in that direction,
but to make it complete, I think he would have to lose his chip.
As it stands he's a monster who gets along slightly better with
the good guys. If he isn't free to make really evil choices again,
he's just half a being.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What is your definition of an anti-hero? Is Spike? --
Rufus, 17:30:37 08/23/01 Thu
In "A Writers Journey" the anti-hero is mentioned.
Anti-hero is a slippery term that can cause a lot of confusion.
Simply stated, an Anti-hero is not the opposite of a Hero, but
a specialized kind of Hero, one who may be an outlaw or a villian
from the point of view of society, but with whom the audiene is
basically in sympathy. We identify with these outsiders because
we have all felt like outsiders at one time or another. from A
Writers Journey by Christopher Vogler
Spike may have become an anit-hero, certainly many of the fans
do sympathize with him on both a fan and character level. The
actor while considered attractive is playing a character who has
become sympathetic by the trials he is going through. There are
two types of anti-heros and we are yet to find out which type
Spike may end up becoming.
Anti-Heros may be of two types: 1)characters who behave much like
conventional Heroes, but are given a strong touch of cynicism
or have a wounded quality, like Bogart's characters in The Big
Sleep and Casablanca. or 2) tragic Heroes, central figures of
a story who may not be likeable or admirable, whose actions we
may even deplore, like Macbeth or Scarface or the Joan Crawford
of Mommie Dearest. from A Writers Journey
So which type of Anti-Hero do you think Spike may or may not be?
His actions identify him as a bit of both but until we know anymore
we don't know for sure if Spikes actions will either redeem him
or lead to tragedy.
The wounded Anti-Hero may be a heroic knight in tarnished armor,
a loner who has rejected society or been rejected by it. These
characters may win at the end and may have the audience's full
sympathy as all times, but in society's eyes they are outcasts,
like Robin Hood, roguish pirate or bandit Heroes, or many of Bogart's
characters. They are often honorable men who have withdrawn from
society's corruption, perhaps ex-cops or soldiers who became disillusioned
and now operate in the shadow of the law as private eyes, smuggler,
gamblers, or soldiers of fortune. We love these characters because
they are rebels, thumbing their noses at society as we would all
like to do. A Writers Journey
Spike does live outside of society and many have started to sympathize
with his plight, but as he spent most of the last century killing
innocent victims we have to look at his actions as more of a Shadow
archetype than hero til the latter end of season five. Even though
Spike stopped killing it wasn't by choice, he wasn't happy as
a neutered villian. But there was a change when he moved past
killing and started helping Buffy, by choice, even without the
carrot of love or sex. But there is one type of Anti-hero that
could also represent Spikes ultimate fate.
The second type of Anti-hero is more like the classical idea of
the tragic Hero. These are flawed Heroes who never overcome their
inner demons and are brought down and destroyed by them. They
may be charming, they may have admirable qualities, but the flaw
wins out in the end. Some tragic Anti-heroes are not so admirable,
but we watch their downfall with fascination because "there,
but for the grace of God, go I." Like the ancient Greeks
who watched Oedipus fall, we are purged of our emotions and we
learn to avoid the same pitfalls as we watch the destruction of
Al Pacino's character in Scarface, Sigourney Weaver as Dian Fossey
in Gorrillas in the Mist, or Dian Keaton's character in Looking
for Mr. Goodbar. from A Writers Journey
So which type of Archetype do you feel Spike fits? Is he a Villian
or is he an Anti-Hero...if so what do you think his ultimate fate
to be? Can a vampire go from villian to hero like Angel, or will
they only fail because they have a flaw in the absence of a soul
that is impossible to overcome? Only time will tell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I'M NOT CRAZY, HEAR ME OUT! :) -- cknight, 19:26:10
08/23/01 Thu
Spike isn't a hero until he loses the chip.
But I have always a nagging feeling that his chip doesn't work
and hasn't for some time on the show. I think when Spike had that
doctor try and take the chip out that the doctor either turned
the chip off or found that it was no longer working. When I watched
the show all I kept thinking was that this guy is signing his
death warrant if he does turn off the chip and tells Spike that
he's free to kill again. He would have been dead before he could
say another word.
I think maybe Spike is so use to the pain being there that he's
really just tricking himself that the chip is working.
Also Spike has taken a lot of damage electric shock, brutal ass
beatings etc. I think Willow will discover early in the new season
that Spike's chip isn't working. Giving him a chance to really
make some choices.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Your not crazy... It could be possible. -- Cactus
Watcher, 20:36:09 08/23/01 Thu
Spikes chip may no longer work. But, if it doesn't, that opens
other cans of worms such as 'Is Tara, in fact, a demon?' It would
be more convient if his chip was still working most of last season
and was destroyed later, say in a fall from a large tower?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Well, as of WOTW, he was still reacting
as if it worked. -- Wiccagrrl, 21:49:30 08/23/01 Thu
When he hits Xander in frustration because of the Ben/Glory forgetfulness,
Spike does seem to have been given the shock. Same with hitting
Tara in Family.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> What about when.. -- Mike, 01:36:34
08/24/01 Fri
Drusilla came back on the scene and he took a bite.. he seemed
to feel genuine pain then, but he DID go through with it and make
the kill. What that means, I dont know.. (which makes me pretty
useless huh!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What about when.. -- LadyStarlight,
06:11:16 08/24/01 Fri
Didn't Dru break the girl's neck before giving her to Spike? That's
what I've always thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What about when..
-- Isabel, 06:16:11 08/24/01 Fri
I agree. She sure wasn't struggling, or even moving, when he took
the bite. I always thought he hesitated because he suddenly felt,
a little bit, mind you, uncomfortable eating a human. (But Spike
is at heart a practical guy. Since the girl was dead, his not
eating her wouldn't bring her back to life. So he had a snack.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I cant remember!
-- Mike, 06:33:59 08/24/01 Fri
I was sure Spike felt pain though. Which made me think the grrl
was still alive...
Can/do vampires ever eat each other? Am i asking another silly
question??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> chip, pain,
& biting the (not yet?) dead -- anom, 09:52:44 08/24/01 Fri
"I was sure Spike felt pain though. Which made me think the
grrl was still alive..."
I remember several expressions passing over Spike's face before
he bit her--a lot of hesitation & mixed feelings, but I don't
remember pain being one of them. Maybe he was anticipating pain
& that's what you saw? 'Cause if the chip had kicked in, it would've
stopped him from biting her at all, like w/Willow that 1st time.
Even if that didn't happen, a broken neck, like a lot of fatal
injuries, doesn't kill immediately. It doesn't stop the heart
from beating, but it paralyzes the diaphragm so the person doesn't
breathe. So the brain isn't getting oxygen, & it takes about 4
minutes without oxygen before the brain actually dies--that's
why they can be saved if emergency help arrives soon enough. During
some of that time the person is still conscious. [see truly grisly
detail at end after blank space; if you don't want to know, don't
scroll all the way down] They have no feeling in most of their
body, depending on where the actual break in the spine is, but
I'm not sure if the neck is included. So, sorry, CW, the woman
might still have had a pulse, & until she lost consciousness,
she might still have felt pain. (No, I didn't time how long Spike
hesitated!)
This also raises the question of how a chip in one person's head
can tell if another person is alive or dead. Kinda reminds me
of Angel's being able to go (or fall) into someone's home as soon
as they die. I doubt the Initiative scientists would design a
chip to respond to some mystical energy change they didn't believe
in.... Well, Spike said it depended on his intention, so maybe
it didn't zap him because he thought she was already dead.
"Can/do vampires ever eat each other? Am i asking another
silly question??"
Well, Angelus & Darla sank their fangs into each other's necks
as part of their sex, uh, play?, after Angelus (or both of them?)
had fed from the Gypsy. I wonder if they'd have wanted to if there
hadn't been fresh human blood in their systems. I doubt vampires
can live on each other's blood.
[WARNING: truly grisly detail below; please label responses if
they deal w/this part]
Truly grisly detail: Eyewitnesses said that after Mary Queen of
Scots (I think it was) was beheaded, the executioner held up her
head & the lips were still moving...yuck but interesting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> WARNING:
re: Grisly details -- Humanitas, 09:57:00 08/24/01 Fri
That's not too uncommon, evidently. It takes the brain (and sometimes
the body, too) a little while to realize that it's dead. Same
thing as the chicken running around after it's head is cut off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
chip, pain, & biting the (not yet?) dead (don't think it's really
grisly) -- LadyStarlight, 07:43:00 08/26/01 Sun
Depending on where Dru snapped her neck at, wouldn't she have
been paralyzed, ie, no feelings? No feeling, no pain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: chip, pain, & biting the (not yet?) dead (don't think it's
really grisly) -- anom, 10:25:35 08/26/01 Sun
Hokay, did some research. Yes, it does depend on how high in the
neck the break is. According to the U of Missouri's spinal cord
injury page (http://www.coe.missouri.edu/~rcep7/orient/refrnc/encycl/sci.htm),
sensation in the part of the neck vampires bite (as shown on BtVS)
is transmitted by the 2nd-3rd cervical nerves. Injuries that make
people unable to breathe on their own can be down to the 4th or
5th. So it's possible that someone with a broken neck at this
level might still be able to feel their neck being bitten. I don't
know how high up in the neck an attack like Dru's on the woman
at the Bronze would actually break it. And there's always some
variation in human (& animal) anatomy, especially in the borders
of the area served by each nerve, which, as Nina no doubt knows,
@>) is called a dermatome. (When I had my wisdom teeth pulled,
the oral surgeon made the 1st novocaine injection in the spot
where it would numb the appropriate area in most people. Didn't
work. He had to give me shots in 2 other places before the right
part of my jaw was numbed.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: chip, pain, & biting the (not yet?) dead (don't think
it's really grisly) -- Rufus, 13:27:57 08/26/01 Sun
The debate over the status of the girl in Crush was solved for
me in the Shooting Script where it said she was dead. It may not
jibe with your medical knowledge but for dramatic purposes we
were to consider her dead so the chip didn't activate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> script trumps chip -- anom, 20:37:35 08/26/01 Sun
You're right, Rufus. The script supersedes the chip, or Spike's
belief that she was dead already. Such is the word of Joss.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, Dru broke her neck
first. No pulse, no pain. -- Cactus Watcher, 07:05:47 08/24/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What is your definition of an anti-hero? Is Spike?
-- Dariel, 21:41:48 08/23/01 Thu
"The second type of Anti-hero is more like the classical
idea of the tragic Hero. These are flawed Heroes who never overcome
their inner demons and are brought down and destroyed by them.
They may be charming, they may have admirable qualities, but the
flaw wins out in the end. Some tragic Anti-heroes are not so admirable,
but we watch their downfall with fascination because "there,
but for the grace of God, go I."
Sigh. Somehow, I think this is what evil Joss has in store for
us!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Hijacking your Spike thread to talk about Angel for a moment.
:) -- Humanitas, 21:51:41 08/23/01 Thu
I don't think Angel really qualifies as an anti-hero. The anti-hero
is usually someone whom we identify with, even as we believe he
wil do pretty awful things in the name of justice. Bogart's Noir
roles come to mind, as do many of Clint Eastwood's characters.
Angel may say things like "Why would I kill you, [vamps out]
when I could feed on you for a month?" But we never believe
for a moment that he'll actually do it. There isn't the resonance
of "Do ya feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
Granted, Angel dipped close to that noir image mid season this
year, but I think the point of that storyline was ultimately that
he just couldn't do it. He went all the way to dispair, and found
light on the other side. Not the conclusion the classic anti-hero
would draw.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Hijacking your Spike thread to talk about Angel
for a moment. :) -- Rufus, 22:36:14 08/23/01 Thu
Yes, Angel, the guy of the evolving archetype, he has been a Shadow,
and a hero. I do think that Angel does fit the bill of an anti-hero
in that his past does give him enough imfamy to be less than the
classic Hero Buffy represents. Also the Anit-hero is all about
isolation where many classic Heroes are more group oriented, Angel
is constantly fighting the urge to withdraw and brood, his natural
cynicism further removing him from dealing with reality. The addition
of a soul didn't absolve Angel from the past crimes of Angelus
it just made him aware of the impact of his actions as a demon/human
hybrid. His character is also seen as a Lost Soul in the book
"Heroes and Heroines" by Cowden, LaFever, & Viders.
Angel is becoming more of a person by his trials. He is not part
of society his status as a nightcrawling demon forever separating
him from true physical humanity. I see Angel as an Anti-Hero that
could eventually get it right by doing the right thing consistantly
enough to win his redemption. I don't see him a Hero like Buffy,
he just hasn't earned it. Even though both characters had no choice
in what they became it was Angel's inate weakness that caused
the amount of death and atrocities as a vampire. So I'll give
you a bit on The Lost Soul hero archtype from Heroes and Heroines,
A tormented man filled with angst and passion, The LOST SOUL drifts
through life with a heavy heart and a wounded spirit. He is dramatic,
intriguing, and secretive. This misfit has never adapted to society.
A tremendous physical or emotional injury has produced a baffling
puzzle of a man. Mystery and solitude surround him and he cannot
find a way to rid himself of the pain he carries with him wherever
he goes. A man with a past who yearns for love and acceptance,
he never seems to find the key that opens the door to happiness.
from Heroes and Heroines
Does any of that sound like Angel, he is mentioned in the book
along with Buffy. The Archetypes are split into male and female.
Here are some flaws of the Lost Soul
BROODING-Brows knitted and face unsmiling the LOST SOUL sits on
the outside, contemplating the unfairness of life. While his mystery
and tragedy may intrigue people, his pessimistic view of life
drives them away. UNFORGIVING-His idealism trips him up, with
others and even with himself. He expects perfection and has a
hard time grasping that everyone has faults. The Lost Soul cannot
seem to forget the slights he has suffered. He can rarely forgive
himself when he fails. Frustration and guilt fill his life. FATALISTIC-He
hopes for the best, but the Lost Soul anticipates that things
will probobly turn out for the worst. He immediately sees the
negatives in people and knows they will not change. Catastrophe
is around every corner and he resigns himself to the whims of
fate. from Heroes and Heroines
If you don't like the term Anti-hero for Angel I think that some
of the Lost Soul certainly applies to him. It was also mentioned
in the book along with Buffy. Sorry no Spike. The thing is that
Archetypes can only help with understanding characters and doesn't
tell the whole story as we don't know what will happen. As a person
evolves so do their Archtypes. Look at some of the heroes, Faith
is an Anti-hero who was headed for a tragic end. Her flaw was
a lack of self worth that left her open to a devious mentor(the
Mayor). So as the seasons progress I can see some of the Archetypes
shifting status as they evolve as people. Buffy will remain the
Hero as it's her journey, and it's all about the journey.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Angel as a Byronic Hero -- Cleanthes, 11:57:28
08/27/01 Mon
Angel doesn't fit the mold of anti-hero that Bogart & Eastwood
portray - on that I agree with Humanitas. OTOH, I agree with Rufus
that Angel still falls under the term anti-hero, however one can
loosely define this term. He WILL brood and brood.
Here's an essay about Byronic heroes that I ran across while thinking
about this (and not doing the work I'm supposed to be doing -
what kind of "anti-" is this? Or perhaps it's just pro-slacker?).
There's a section specifically about Angel.
When Angel locked the lawyers and their possibly innocent dates
into the room with Darla and Dru, he surely called on the full
gloom of Byron's shade.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Angel as a Byronic Hero -- Rufus,
12:43:35 08/27/01 Mon
Gee, thanks for that link it was a great read.
Angel, a vampire whose soul has been restored by a gypsy curse,
broods over his guilt for his crimes in his past. as Angelus,
a conscienceless and remourseless killer with a sardonic and bitter
sense of humor. The heroic Angel, however, rarely smiles, and
his eyebrows are knitted in an almose permanent frown. he dresses
in dark clothing like our other heroes (vampires are apparently
very concerned with fashion), usually wearing a long black coat
that gives the effect of a cape.
That's Angel alright, and great if it's only a small dose of the
constant brooding self pity. The best thing that ever happened
to Angel besides getting his soul back and loving Buffy, was his
move to LA, where people in their quest for perfection reflect
Angels selfobsession. Angel as Liam got in trouble because he
wasn't part of humanity choosing to hang out in pubs and argue
with his father. There was abuse in his family situation that
scarred Liam enough that he was paralysed unable to move past
his dad's dire perdictions for his future as a layabout. Liam
was on his way to being at least a petty criminal but with the
right intervention could have freed himself from his self made
prison. When Darla met up with Liam he was sick of his dead end
situation, he call to adventure was accepted, uncaring about the
price. Angelus was the form Liams rejection of society and humanity
took. Still hurting from his years of verbal abuse he took to
avenging his ego on anyone luckless enough to cross his path.
The Gypsies are the ones that stopped the bloodletting with their
curse, designed to punish the vampire by making him capable of
feeling pain in the form of a conscience. Still apart from society
Angel was useless as a vampire and as a man. His first sight of
Buffy was his salvation. A blonde damned him and a blonde saved
him. But this love was not to be. LA ended up his new home where
he took to some serious brooding about his impossible situation.
Angel is an anti-hero but one that needed something to stay interesting.
I think the writers have been smart in having Angel take responsibility
for all his actions as a vampire in that the worst of what he
did stemmed from his dissatisfaction as a person. Angel is an
anti-hero but he has evolved into more. His interaction with Cordy,
Doyle, Wesley, and Gunn have helped him to choose humanity. The
Darla story arc was painful to watch as it looked like her influence
would make Angel become Angelus again. But Angel went from anti-hero
to warrior by having his epiphany. Instead of judging humanity
by using his own actions as a template, Angel was able to finally
see that just as people can be selfish and cruel, people are capable
of great sacrifice and love. In Buffys shadow Angel would never
have done this. Angels shan shu was seen as a prize for a job
well done, a victory over evil, but I see his shan shu not as
a demon becoming human but as a human taking back his humanity
by accepting who he is and acting in a humane way. A reward for
battle was something that Angel regarded as humanity on the payment
plan. All Angel ever had to do to become human was to act like
one. His relationship with Cordy may seem like employer and employee
but Cordy has taught Angel more than that. Her caring for him
like a brother has become important to him and has brought a smile
to a once dour face. It may not be the love he had for Buffy but
with his friends in LA Angel can now begin to let the fashion
perfect facade drop letting the human who never let show through.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Or 'Lovelace' from Clarissa -- Rahael,
14:25:33 08/27/01 Mon
Has anyone else read Richardson's Clarissa? I'm convinced that
Lovelace, the villainous hero to end all villainous heros is startlingly
close to Angelus. At turns sexy, remorseful, intelligent, charming
and witty, he is also cruel, sadistic and finally unmasked as
evil. By contrast Clarissa is beautiful, pure, steadfast and moral.
She stands out against both society and Lovelace to forge her
own destiny.
Its an amazing book I would recommend to anyone.
Because 'Clarissa' set in the 18th century, I can definitely imagine
Angelus in the role!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Umm. Humanitas, I don't think it's legal to hijack
a Spike thread here. ;-) -- Slayrunt, 03:53:09 08/24/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> But isn't this an anti-hero thread? -- John
Burwood, 09:27:35 08/24/01 Fri
And since it is a Buffy board I am hijacking the thread to say
that I see Buffy as an anti-hero, defined as one who takes the
hero role but acts by nature opposite in character to the archetype
hero. Anyone ever read Northanger Abbey, by Jane Austen. It was
a spoof on the gothic horror novels, then in vogue, and she specifically
wrote that no-one who knew Catherine as a child would ever have
supposed her meant to be a heroine. In direct counter to the classic
heroine archetype, the child Catherine showed little interest
in academic subjects, and was more interested in sports & fantasy.
Throughout the novel Catherine is constantly contrasted with the
heroine archetype by having the natural and normal attitudes of
a teenage girl - sound familiar. Buffy, IMHO, is similarly contrasted
with the stereotype heroine of horror movies &with super-hero
archetypes. But I am running out of time for this post -will have
to come back with a Part 2 ASAP.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> In my book Buffy is considered a Crusader
-- Rufus, 14:33:59 08/24/01 Fri
Because of her capacity as a fighter, Buffy is considered a Crusader.
From Heroes and Heroines.
Ready for action, the Crusader marches in. This is a heroine in
the truest sense-deeds of valor are right up her alley. She is
confident, tenacious and headstrong against opposition. Lines
of battle have been drawn, and she never back down from a contest.
The world has veered off its course, and she is just the one to
set it straight again. From her perspective, if she does not do
it, it will probobly not get done. Or at least, not done correctly.
from Heroes and Heroines
Buffy may sound a bit like an anti-hero but I think that she is
more connected to the world than most anti-heroes would be. She
has a family life and friends that help keep her grounded in this
world. Buffy is also considered a Crusader who is a Zealot.
The Crusader might be a Zealot....This Crusader moves unswervingly
towards her goal, and heaven help anyone who get in the way. She
is a true believer in the absolute necessity for the completion
of her task. The Superheroine pulls off the impossible task, while
making it look all in a days work................The Zealot has
a mission....She has to save the world. It is her duty, her mission,
her purpose in life. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was destined from
birth for her demon-fighting role. She is totally committed to
the literal protection of the world from evil. Her persistence
in the drive to overcome obstacles standing in front of her is
unwavering. from Heroes and Heroines
Buffy may at first refuse her mission, wanting to have a life
without the weight of the world on her shoulders, but as soon
as she sees the price there is to pay if evil wins, she quickly
takes the task on. At that point of acceptance, nothing can stop
her. Being a hero of any kind is never easy. We expect certain
things from out heroes that we don't of anyone else. Buffy may
have been destined for her role as slayer, her actions prove that
she is in it for her love of the world, not herself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Legal or not... -- Humanitas, 09:41:32 08/24/01
Fri
...it's a fitting revenge for ATLTS, don'tcha think? ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> But isn't this an anti-hero thread here? (Part
2) -- John Burwood, 09:43:13 08/24/01 Fri
Hope you got Part one- to resume. As a horror anti-heroine Buffy
was originally conceived asthe blonde - apparently superficial
'dumb-blonde', who in the archetype gets killed by the monsters.
And the archetype superhero, especially the archetype teenage
superhero is an outsider. In the teenage archetype generally a
nerdy, deridedd, often bullied type, and acquiring superpowers
does not just let them fight evil but to avoid trouble, get back
at the bullies, and generally lead a happier life. Buffy, in direct
opposition to this archetype, was an insider, no nerd, popular,
etc. She is driven outside, gets into awful trouble, becomes an
object of derision, and generally gets her life made miserable.
Buffy subverts the stereotypes in a typically Joss way, and thus
is an anti-hero in many ways. In my humble, thread hi-jacking
opinion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Can we create a ATLtSbAHBA? (All threads
lead to Spike but are hijacked by Angel) :) -- Nina, 11:52:31
08/24/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> I don't think so. Angel can't hijack
ALL threads... :) -- Millan, 14:39:43 08/25/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What is your definition of an anti-hero? Is Spike? --
oranjes, 08:38:45 08/28/01 Tue
i think spike's almost an anti-hero. the decision, for me, is
going to take place in season six- will he continue on this path
after his 'reason for doing good', ie Buffy, is dead ? if he does,
whether honoring her memory or just feeling like that's what he
has to do, that will make him an anti-hero to me, chip or no chip.
as far as the chip, i don't feel like that takes away his potential
for heroism. it just opened a new door for him, that's all. it
does limit his capability for physical harm, but as we saw in
'the yoko factor' and so on, he still has the capability to hurt,
emotionally and through scheming. so he could still be playing
the villain, or just be moping in the dark right now, but he's
made a conscious decision to help these people in their fight
against evil.
or, whatever he's able to hit ;)
First
Anniversary Character Posting Party Something Or Other I Can't
Remember Now Phrase: Cordelia -- Solitude1056, 20:19:08 08/23/01
Thu
PART ONE: Season one, episode one through Lover's Walk. Rufus
warning: long. Oops.
In every adolescent rite of passage, we've got a series of stereotypes.
The tomboyish but innocent protagonist. The goofy but endearing
best friend who may or may not turn out to be "the one."
The brainy nerd, the catty princess, the dim-witted athlete. Gee,
anyone ever watch The Breakfast Club? Or Some Kind of Wonderful?
or Pretty in Pink? We've got yer stereotypes right here, step
right up.
Cordelia: Hi! I'm Cordelia. (offers her hand)
Buffy: (accepts it) I'm Buffy.
Cordelia: If you're looking for a textbook of your very own there's
probably a few in the library.
Buffy: Oh, great, thanks. (they get up) Where would that be?
Cordelia: I'll show you, come on. (they start out of the classroom)
So you're from Hemery, right? In L.A.?
Buffy: Uh, yeah.
Cordelia: Oh, I would *kill* to live in L.A. That close to that
many shoes?
Buffy has to laugh as they go into the hall.
Cut to the two of them walking down another part of the hall.
Cordelia: Well, you'll be okay here. If you hang with me and mine,
you'll be accepted in no time.
Shortly after this exchange, Buffy meets Willow, who's greeted
by Cordelia in what has truly become a BtVS classic line:
Cordelia: Willow! Nice dress! Good to know you've seen the softer
side of Sears.
Cordelia is Joss' response to the corporate TV Law of Stereotypes:
There Must Be At Least One Stereotype In Every Episode.
Cordelia was Joss' original unknown ensign. (For those of you
unfamiliar with the original Star Trek, in every episode where
a crew ventures into a strange world, the Captain would bark the
names of several characters to join him, followed by, "and
you, ensign." And with a death rate rivaling that of lemmings,
those unknown ensigns were the ones who got it from that episode's
bad guy.)
Nevertheless, Cordelia managed to survive, and not only because
the actress had zip, but because the character quickly revealed
a missing characterization on the show, despite her stereotype
origins. Giles is Hesitant Guy, Xander is goofy, Angel is all
angst and broodiness, Buffy's uncertain, and Willow... well, Willow's
off in her own set of logical connections. Cordelia, however,
gets right to the point., frequently without caring much for how
it sounds to others. She makes a great foil for Buffy's introspection.
At the beginning of Season Two, Cordelia opens her mouth in When
She Was Bad and we see someone who's been paying attention, even
if her expression is still a bit on the straightforward side.
Cordelia: Buffy. (Buffy stops) You're really campaigning for bitch-of-the-year,
aren't you?
Buffy: (turns to face her) As defending champion, you nervous?
Cordelia: I can hold my own. You know, we've never really been
close, which is nice, 'cause I don't really like you that much,
but... you have on occasion saved the world and stuff, so I'm
gonna... do you a favor.
Buffy: And this great favor is...
Cordelia: I'm gonna give you some advice. Get over it.
Buffy: Excuse me?
Cordelia: Whatever is causing the Joan Collins 'tude, deal with
it. Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever, but get
over it. 'Cause pretty soon you're not even gonna have the loser
friends you've got now.
Somehow, Cordelia keeps getting wrapped up in the Scooby Gang
adventures. She's just the unlucky character to always be in the
right place at the right time to "happen" to end up
in bad situations. Unlike Willow and Xander who choose to be with
Buffy, Cordelia keeps getting dragged back in, and Joss uses the
nasty high school prom princess as comic relief even in the worst
moments.
Cordelia: What an ordeal. And you know what the worst part is?
Jenny: What?
Cordelia: It stays with you forever. No matter what they tell
you, none of that rust and blood and grime comes out. I mean,
you can dry clean till judgment day, you are living with those
stains.
Jenny: Yeah that's the worst part of being hung upside down by
a vampire who wants to slit your throat: the stains.
Cordelia: I hear ya!
The bliss of Cordelia is that to keep up her snappy remarks without
sounding like a total bitch, she's got to be relatively unaware.
Instinctively unselfconscious when she speaks, to the point that
the Scooby's sarcastic responses or eye rolling is either lost
on her, or just goes over her head. Self-absorbed, materialistic,
and obsessed with appearances, she's a cardboard character who
just happens to have some witty lines. She's the one we get to
laugh at, because she manages to remain oblivious while the world
is crashing down around her ears.
Cordelia: Well, evil just compounds evil, doesn't it? First I'm
sentenced to a computer tutorial on Saturday, now I have to read
some computer book... There are books on computers? Isn't the
point of computers to replace books?
Giles: (cuts her off) Cordelia, I'm a little busy right now. (points
out the detective)
Cordelia: Oh! Great! (steps up to Det. Winslow) Can you help me
with a ticket? It's totally bogus. It was a one-way street. I
was going one way.
Giles: (raised voice) Cordelia!
Cordelia: What?! Why does everyone always yell my name? I'm not
deaf! And I can take a hint. (unsure) What's the hint?
Giles: To come back later.
Cordelia: Yeah, when you've visited decaf land. (leaves)
We're in with the Scoobies, and know the real deal, so Cordelia's
insistence on being ignorant is seen as part of her self-absorption.
This is Joss' way of holding up the stereotype that wrecks havoc
in most adolescent lives, and revealing it as being something
less aware than the freaks and outsiders, and thus not nearly
as frightening as the real issues, in this case vampires, demons,
and various other big bads.
Regardless, Cordelia continues to pop up at the right place and
the right time, and while the other Scoobies develop and grow,
she remains the unintended comic relief. Joss' answer to making
her less static is to do the unexpected. Cordelia and Xander discover
their mutual attraction.
To this day, I'm not entirely certain of the reason. In some ways,
it seemed like a minor deus ex machina, because these two characters
demonstrated nothing that particularly might inspire the other
to be attracted to them.
Cordelia: 'I aspire to help my fellow man.' (marks her test) Check.
As long as he's not smelly, dirty or something gross.
Xander: Cordelia Chase, always ready to give a helping hand to
the rich and the pretty.
Cordelia: Which, lucky me, excludes you. Twice.
In a moment of fear for their lives, the two - whose nasty repartees
have formed the majority of the laughs during the second season
- suddenly flip into passionate mode.
Cordelia: I can't believe that I'm stuck spending what will probably
be my last few moments on Earth here with you!
Xander: I *hope* these are my last few moments! Three more seconds
with you, and I'm gonna... (steps closer)
Cordelia: (steps closer) I'm gonna what? Coward!
Xander: Moron!
Cordelia: I hate you!
Xander: I hate you!
They look at each other for another second before grabbing each
other and engaging in a mad, passionate kiss. It goes on for several
seconds before they suddenly release each other and look at each
other in surprise.
Xander: We *so* need to get outta here.
Cordelia: (nods) Mm-hm!
Later in the same episode (What's My Line, part two), they try
to reconcile what had happened with their insistence that they
can't stand each other.
Xander: Right, I hired a Latvian bug man to kill Buffy so I could
kiss you. I hate to burst your bubble, but you don't inspire me
to spring for a dinner over at Bucky's Fondue Hut.
Cordelia: Fine! Whatever. (starts to leave, but steps back, closer)
You know, the point is: don't try it again!
Xander: I didn't try it! (calms a bit) Forget about the bugs,
okay? The memory of your lips on mine makes my blood run cold.
Cordelia: (steps closer) If you dare breathe a word of this...
Xander: Like I want anyone to know!
Cordelia: Then it's erased!
Xander: Never happened!
Cordelia: Good!
Xander: Good!
Cordelia: *Good*!
They stare into each other's eyes for a moment, and then grab
each other in another mad, passionate kiss. This time they don't
break off.
Don't think, though, that just because Cordelia and Xander are
perpetuating a broom closet romance means Cordelia's lost any
of her zip.
Cordelia: Xander, I know you take pride in being the voice of
the common wuss, but the truth is, certain people are entitled
to special privileges. They're called winners. That's the way
the world works.
Xander: And what about that nutty 'all men are created equal'
thing?
Cordelia: Propaganda spouted out by the ugly and less deserving.
But in Go Fish, when Xander joins the swim team 'undercover,'
(prompting the almost-as-famous Buffyism, "Not under much"),
there's a moment when Cordelia believes the fish in the swimming
pool is actually Xander, already changed by the drugs used by
the episode's bad guy, the devious swim team coach. It's this
ancient plot device of 'mistaken identity' that allows us to see,
for perhaps the first time, a glimpse into Cordelia's real thoughts
about her interaction with Xander.
Cordelia: (very upset) It's me, Cordelia? I know you can't answer
me, but... God, this is all my fault. You joined the swim team
to impress me. You were so courageous. And you looked really hot
in those Speedo's. (chuckles) And I want you to know that I still
care about you, no matter what you look like. And... and we can
still date. Or, or not. I mean... I understand if you wanna see
other fish. (crouches by the edge) I'll do everything I can to
make your quality of life better. Whether that means little bath
toys or whatever.
The other quick moment is when Xander discovers that his pictures
are in Cordelia's locker. Keeping her flippant edge, she tells
him that she put the pictures up because she looks cute in them.
But the inclusion of mentioning their summertime activities indicates
that their relationship has progressed to a definite comfort level.
Through all this, though, Cordelia doesn't deviate too far from
her stereotypical basis, though. We still get to laugh at her
insistence on remaining ignorant and self-absorbed during a crisis,
and her surprise when Xander gets aggravated at her lack of tact.
The audience is still removed from Cordelia, and still set up
to consider her essentially a bitchy character with a sharp wit.
When Buffy and Cordelia compete for Homecoming Queen, Buffy and
Faith are being targeted with another rendition of the Great Hunt
(some 30's movie, I think. Old plotline: hunting humans, blah
blah). Once again, Cordelia's lucky enough to be in the right
place and time to be swept up in the Scooby gang role. While trapped
in a small cabin with Buffy, Cordelia turns maudlin.
Cordelia: (sobbing) I'm never gonna be crowned Homecoming Queen.
I'm never gonna graduate from high school. I'm never gonna know
if it's real between me and Xander, or if it's just... (sobs)
some temporary insanity that made me think... (sobs) I loved him.
(sobs) And now I'm never gonna get the chance to tell him.
Buffy: Yes, you are. We are gonna get out of here, and we are
gonna head back to the library, where Giles and the rest of the
weapons live. Then I'm gonna take out the rest of these guys just
in time for you to congratulate me on my *sweeping* victory as
Homecoming Queen.
Cordelia: I know what you're up to. You think if you get me mad
enough, I won't be so scared. And, hey! It's working! Where's
a damn weapon?
At the end of this episode, Cordelia gets one of the best examples
of her ability to use her willful ignorance of reality to convince
an opponent. That's how Cordelia works, after all: if you say
it long enough and loud enough, through sheer force of will, it
must be true - or, at least, it's a lot harder for someone else
to disagree. Just steamroller them.
The vampire Lyle is under the impression that Cordelia is Faith,
and Buffy's just been knocked unconscious, while his wife was
dusted. It's down to Cordelia and Lyle, and the only thing she's
got to defend herself with is her wits.
Lyle: I'm gonna kill both you Slayers for this! You hear me?
Cordelia: I hear you, you redneck moron. You got a dress that
goes with that hat?
Lyle: (furious) I'm gonna...
Cordelia: Rip out my innards, play with my eyeballs, boil my brain
and eat it for brunch? Listen up, needle-brain. Buffy and I have
taken out four of your cronies, not to mention your girlfriend.
Lyle: WIFE!
Cordelia: Whatever. The point is, I haven't even broken a sweat.
See, in the end, Buffy's just the runner-up. *I'm* the Queen.
You get me mad, (gets in his face and glares at him) what do you
think I'm gonna do to you?
Lyle is taken aback by that, and considers his next move. Cordelia
raises her eyebrows at him impatiently. Lyle thinks better of
taking her on and gives her a quick nod.
Lyle: Later.
Then we get to Lover's Walk. When Oz and Cordelia burst in to
rescue Willow and Xander, to find them kissing, Oz is stunned
- but Cordelia turns and runs. At the time, I expected her to
have something fierce to say, to be her usual tactless blunt self.
But she can't, because then she'd be admitting that she's seeing
and dealing with something that she can't deal with.
All the times she's faced down apocalypses, retaining her self-centric
worldview by sheer will power, and she flees at the sight of her
boyfriend kissing someone else. As she dashes up the stairs, the
steps collapse and Cordelia falls. The last shot is of Cordelia,
directly overhead... impaled by rebar. Xander dashes to her, desperate.
Oz goes for help while Willow watches from above. Cordelia appears
to pass out or die, we're not sure which, and Xander's distraught.
In the next shot, we get a misleading view of a funeral in the
background, as Willow and Buffy discuss the fact that Cordelia's
not dead. Badly injured, and badly heartbroken. Given that Oz
is equally upset at Willow, Cordelia's response seems reasonable.
Xander attempts to visit her anyway, and she sends him away. In
and of itself, this would be what we'd think to get from the Ice
Queen, except that the next few silent shots of her - crying as
Xander leaves, then in a retrospective of each character, looking
forlorn and detached, she's hardly brushing herself off and ready
to move on.
In other words, Cordelia remained a stereotypical character until
her injury permitted the writers a chance to get inside Cordelia's
head and show what was going on in there. In the next episode,
The Wish, she's beginning the process of moving on by shutting
out what she once felt.
A photograph of Xander, Willow, Buffy and Cordelia - as a large
pair of scissors come into frame and cuts each one out, separating
them. In the background, we can hear Xander's voice on an answering
machine.
Xander (0.C.): Hey. It's Xander. If you get this, call me.
Now we move up to see that it's Cordelia who is doing the slice
and dice job while she ignores the phone machine. Her eyes are
red from crying and she looks just about as bad as an incredibly
beautiful person can look.
Xander (O.C.): (new message) Hi. Xander... I, uh, well, I'm in
if you feel like talking. Bye.
Now we widen and see that she's wearing sweats and a sports top
- and a large white bandage that spans one side of her torso,
covering the injury she sustained in episode 8. We also see that
her room is a total mess. Littered with clothes and diet soda
cans and junk food wrappers...She slices the heads off Buffy and
Willow.
Xander (O.C.): (new message) Hi, Cordelia.... Uh....
Now Cordy takes the Xander portion and lights it on fire with
a match. She drops it into an ashtray - watches the fumes rising
- her expression betraying the chilling mix of hurt and fury that
is unmistakably the look of a woman scorned.
Hey, that stereotype has feelings.
Go on to part two, if you wanna. I'm sure there's a way to do
a link but I'm rather brainfried at the moment, so not much help
from me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> First Anniversary Character Posting
Party Something Or Other I Can't Remember Now Phrase Part 2 --
Solitude1056, 20:38:06 08/23/01 Thu
PART TWO: The Wish to Pylea (well, sort of) Rufus warning: still
long.
Over the next few episodes, we see a reversion to the original
Cordelia, complete with zip and wit, but now she's considerably
nastier.
Xander: Hey, Cordy, hear about Will gettin' into Oxnard?
Willow: Oxford.
Xander: And MIT and Yale and every other college on the face of
the planet? As in your face I rub it...
Cordelia: Oh, whoopie. Oxford. Four years in Tea Bag central sounds
like a thrill. MIT is a clearasil ad with housing, and Yale's
a dumping ground for people that didn't get into Harvard.
Willow: I got into Harvard.
Xander: Any clue what college you'll be attending? So we can start
calculating minimum safe distance...
Cordelia: None of your business. Certainly nowhere near you losers.
Buffy: Remember to breathe between insults, guys.
Cordelia: I'm sorry, Buffy. This conversation is reserved for
people who actually HAVE a future.
Since the character is kept in the background, it's hard to keep
perspective how heartbroken she may have been. Our only signals
are The Wish and the continued interest in cutting Xander down
as small, and as often, as possible. We don't see a lot of Mopey
Cordelia after those few shots prior to The Wish. Until The Zeppo,
she repeatedly scores on Xander. Once he finds his own center,
however, she's at a loss, and what little last power she had is
completely negated. The stereotype of the nasty high school reigning
princess has been revealed as bluster. She's just simple comic
relief.
The two of them finally get closure, and Cordelia is shown a bit
more sympathetically not because of her own actions, but because
of Xander's response. During an earlier conversation in Choices,
Cordelia reveals to Xander that in fact, she got into a number
of excellent colleges (no surprise, considering her SAT scores
were almost as high as Willow's, which Cordelia excused by saying
she's got a lot of experience in covering these things). However,
the two again miss no opportunity to jab each other. Until, that
is, Xander returns to the same shop and discovers Cordelia there
again, in The Prom.
Xander: You work here?
A beat as Cordelia realizes she's caught. Wavers between shame
and misplaced rage. Guess which one she settles on?
Cordelia: Yes! Yes, I'm working here.
Xander: Uh, why?
Cordelia: I'm trying to buy a dress.
Xander: Don't you already have all the dresses?
Cordelia: I have nothing! Okay? No dresses, no cell phone, no
car -- everything got taken away because DADDY made a little mistake
on his taxes for the last twelve years! Satisfied? Are you a happy
Xander now? I'm broke. I can't go to any of the colleges that
accepted me and I can't stay home because we no longer have one.
He really doesn't know how to respond. He tries to put as much
sympathetic gravity as he can into:
Xander: Um... wow.
Cordelia: Yeah, neato. You can run along and tell all your friends
how Cordy finally got hers, how she has to work part time just
to get a lousy prom dress on layaway. How she has to wear a name
tag. (revealing hers under her cardigan) Yeah, I'm a name tag
person! Don't leave that out; the story just wouldn't have the
same punch!
What makes us sympathetic to the high and mighty falling is not
that we, as viewers, have been manipulated to empathize with Cordelia.
She's still fundamentally the stereotype, with a few moments here
and there of complexity. It's Xander's response, and his gentle
manner way of dealing with the situation, that make the viewers
take a second look. Given Cordelia's treatment of him so far (and
his repeated acknowledgement that he feels he deserves this on
some level), his reaction was a surprising sign of his maturity.
Later in that episode, the group reviews a tape of the attack
on the dress shop. Wesley's a little jealous of the news that
Cordelia and Xander had been there together.
Wesley: What were you doing with Xander?
Cordy stammers - not wanting to say why.
Cordelia: What? Um. I was...
Xander: (jumping in) Burning a hole in daddy's wallet as usual.
I just bumped into her on my tuxedo hunt.
The night of the prom, Cordelia discovers that her dress, which
was still on layaway, had been paid for... by Xander. Xander wasn't
going to tell, and never did tell, anyone about her shame. For
all that she's a superficial, egocentric character, Xander respects
the pain she's experiencing. The audience's empathy with Xander
is the reason it's willing to think twice about Cordelia.
After graduation, Cordelia disappears. When she reappears, in
Los Angeles, at a party. She's dressed beautifully, and is doing
her best to blend in. It's the return of the classic foil, Cordelia
the Sharp Wit without tact.
Angel spots her talking to two guys in business suits: "Cordelia?"
Cordelia turns and sees him: "Oh, my god. Angel?"
Angel: "Nice to see a familiar face."
Cordelia: "I didn't know you were in LA. Are you *living*
here?"
Angel: "Yeah. You?"
Cordelia: "Malibu. A small condo on the beach. It's not a
private beach, but I'm young so I forbear."
Angel: "You're acting?"
Cordelia: "Can you believe it? I mean I just started it to
make some quick cash, and then boom, it was like my life! - So
are you still (holds up her hands like claws and makes a face)
- grrr?"
Angel: "Yeah, there's not actually - a cure for that."
Cordelia: "Right. But you're not evil, I mean your not here
to bite people?"
Angel: "No, I'm here with a friend."
Cordelia: "Oh, good. Well, it was nice seeing you, but I've
got to get mingly. I really should be talking to people that are
somebody." (walks away)
As far as the audience, and Angel, can tell, Cordelia is back
on top. This time, however, Joss doesn't give us two seasons before
we see a different side. Not more than two scenes later, we see
Cordelia after the party.
Cut to Cordelia's apartment. It's really poor. There are plaster
patches on dirty yellow walls. She is hanging up her dress in
a bare closet.
Answering machine: "You have one new message."
Agent on the machine. "Cordy, Joe at the Agency. No Luck,
again. We're having trouble booking auditions. The networks say
they've seen enough of you. So, you know, no need to call. We'll
let you know if the situation changes. Bye."
Cordelia takes out some of the star shaped sandwiches that she
stashed away at the party with a sigh.
Answering machine: "You have no more messages."
Once again, Cordelia is in the right place at the right time,
and the episode's bad guy wants to meet her. Unsuspecting, Cordelia
goes for dinner at his fabulous LA mansion, right as Angel is
zeroing in on the location. Cordelia may force herself to keep
up appearances, but she's never been stupid. After being coaxed
into talking about the difficulties she's having getting work,
she realizes what's going on. As usual, her perceptivity is right
on, but what she thinks, she says.
Cordelia: "Oh, god. I'm sorry! I'm getting all weepy in front
of you. I probably look really scary. (gets up and looks around
the room) I finally get invited to a nice place - with no mirrors,
- and lots of curtains... hey, you're a vampire!"
Russell: "What? No, I'm not."
Cordelia: "Are too!"
Russell: "I don't know what you're talking about."
Cordelia: "Hey, I'm from Sunnydale. We had our own Hellmouth!
I think I know a vampire when I'm - alone with him... - in his
fortress-like home. And you know, I think I'm just feeling a little
light headed from hunger. I'm just wacky. And kidding! Ha, ha."
By the end of the episode, Cordelia's used her right-place-right-time
skills to inveigle a job with Angel. Despite her best attempts
otherwise, Doyle isn't fooled - anymore than Angel - about how
difficult life's been recently for Cordelia. Doyle's encouragement
makes Angel keep Cordelia as an employee.
After almost 3 years on BtVS, it's not until Cordelia moves to
AtS that she develops any complexity beyond the cardboard emotions
she'd been given previously. When Doyle helps her find an apartment
that's unfortunately haunted, Angel tries to convince her that
it's not worth it.
Angel goes to stand beside Cordy: "You know, this really
is just a place to live."
Cordy: "No, It's more. It's beautiful, - and if it goes away
it's like.."
Angel: "Like what?"
Cordy quietly: "Like I'm still getting punished."
Angel: "Punished. (Cordy nods) For what?"
Cordy: "I don't know. For what I was? For everything I said
in High School just because I could get away with it? - And then
it all ended, and I had to pay. - Oh, but this apartment - I could
be me again. Punishment over - welcome back to your life! Like,
like I couldn't be that awful if I get to have a place like that?
- It's just like you!"
Angel nods: "Working for redemption."
Cordy frowns confused: "I - I meant because you used to have
that mansion."
What, you were expecting Cordelia to lose that obliviousness?
Not this girl. She's still got plenty of her old Self, despite
her best attempts to grow out of it. Now, though, we get to see
Cordelia's side of things more often than once every six episodes.
Getting to see that means being able to empathize more easily.
After a date when Cordelia realizes that despite good looks and
a lot of money, she's bored stiff, she's dropped off at the office
and attacked by a demon come to visit Doyle. Her date flees immediately
without looking backwards. Doyle, however, takes a stand, rescuing
Cordelia.
Doyle looks at Cordy as they slowly get up: "Are you okay?"
Cordy with a frown: "I'm fine. That was.. You're so - brave."
Doyle: "You think you could say that again without so much
shock in your voice? You're stepping on my moment of manliness
here."
Cordy still frowning: "I'm sorry. I'm just.."
Doyle: "Surprised?"
Cordy: "Grateful."
Cordelia's still her zippy self, but she's paying more attention
now. She discusses the incident with Angel.
Cordy: "And the whole night I was bored silly. All I could
think about was: if this wimp ever saw a monster, he'd probably
throw a shoe at it and run like a weasel. Turns out the shoe part
was giving him to much credit."
Angel: "There aren't very many people that wouldn't run.
It's just human nature."
Cordy: "Yeah, - but all of a sudden rich and handsome isn't
enough for me. Now I expect a guy to be all brave and interesting.
And it's your fault! Both of you."
Angel: "Well, maybe not. Maybe you're changing. That could
be a good thing."
Cordy: "Disastrous. - And as if I wasn't confused enough,
then Doyle comes along and rescues me like some - badly dressed
superhero. (Sighs) He was really beat up - but you know the first
thing he asked? Are you okay? I mean, that's like - substance,
right?"
Angel: "Yeah, well, there is definitely more to Doyle then
meets the eye."
Cordy: "So, I've got to kill myself. I swore when I went
that road with Xander Harris, I'd rather be dead then date a fixer-upper
again. (sighs) Still, maybe you're right. Maybe Doyle does have
- hidden depths. I mean, really, really hidden, - but depths.
And I'm gonna have to buy him a moccachino to thank him for saving
my life, don't you think?"
When she finds out, several episodes later, that Doyle is part-demon,
she's aggravated in the usual Cordelia mode, but then surprises
us all with her conclusion.
Cordy: "You're alive!"
Doyle: "And you're not happy?"
Cordy: "We were worried."
Doyle: "Oh. Well, it's all going to be okay. (Cordy slaps
him) What was that for?"
Cordy: "Why didn't you tell me that you were half demon?
I thought we agreed that secrets are bad!"
Doyle: "I wanted to tell you. I was afraid. I thought if
I did, you'd reject me."
Cordy: "I've rejected you way before now! So, you're half
demon. Big Whoop! I can't believe you'd think I'd care about that.
I mean, I work for a vampire! Hello?"
Doyle: "It's true. I just..."
Cordy: "What do you think I am, superficial? - So you're
half demon. That's so far down the list, way under 'short' and
'poor'! - Is there anything else I should know?"
Doyle: "The half demons thing is pretty much my big secret."
Cordy: "Good. That's out. It's done. - Would you ask me out
to dinner already?"
Doyle: "Yeah? (Cordy smiles at him) Cordelia. Would you like..."
Unfortunately for our heroine, it's not to be. Angel arrives at
that moment, the refugees are trapped, the bomb's about to go
off. It's touch-and-go, but in this case, it's kiss-and-go. At
the last minute, Doyle knocks Angel off the landing, kisses Cordelia
passionately, and leaps to his death, saving everyone else in
the process. Cordelia is stunned, and it's in Doyle's death -
like in Xander's respectful silence - that we get to see a new
part of Cordelia. Her growth has repeatedly been in the wake of
someone else's actions.
Cordelia is examining the coffee cup sitting by the coffee maker
one by one.
Angel: "What are you looking for?"
Cordy: "Nothing. - Doyle's special coffee mug."
Angel: "Doyle didn't have a special mug."
Cordy: "Don't you think he should have? (Goes to sit down)
I don't know, I guess I thought it would make me feel better if
I could hold something tangible that he left behind. Some evidence
he was here? But there is nothing. Almost like - like he never..."
Doyle's kiss transfers his visions to Cordelia. Alternately, the
visions may have come from the Glitter Twins afterwards, when
Angel requests to have someone new who can be his connection to
the PTB, as Cordelia nicknames them. She's none too happy about
the splitting migraines, but quickly realizes that she's irreplaceable
now that she has them
Cordelia: You can't fire me, I'm vision girl!
She's still just as tactless as ever. She's now Angel's foil,
and then Wesley's, once he appears. Her ability to be in the right
place and the right time has developed into being the right place
and the right time, herself. She has gone from being the stereotype
in the background, Buffy's opposite and could-have-been, to being
the heart of Angel's path.
When Vocah attacks her, so Angel will be divided from his contact
with the PTBs, Wesley manages to reverse the spell. As the nurses
rush to get the doctors, Cordelia - now most frequently referred
to as Cordy, by the way - wakes up.
Cordy looks at Angel: "I saw them all. There is so much pain.
- We have to help them."
Angel: "We will. (Strokes her cheek) We will."
Cut to a shot of Angel's hand gripping hers tightly.
It's not long after this, as all three are grouped around Cordelia's
kitchen table in the aftermath of Angel's apartment and office
being destroyed, that Cordelia surprises Wesley and Angel.
Wesley: "I'm sorry, I don't know what they raised in that
box. - I'll keep looking."
Cordy: "You've been looking for two days. You need to relax
and charge the brain cells. (Hands him the plate with the sandwich)
Here. Eat."
Wesley accepts it and looks over at Angel.
Cordy hands Angel the cup with the blood: "You too. (Angel
looks up at her) Don't be embarrassed. We're family."
Angel accepts the cup. Cordy notices Wesley staring at her.
Cordy: "What?"
Wesley: "It's just I... - I'm not used to..."
Angel: "He's not used to the new you."
Cordy: "I know what's out there now. We have a lot of evil
to fight, a lot of people to help. - I just hope skin and bones
here can figure out what those lawyers raised sometime before
the prophecy kicks in and you croak. ...That was the old me, wasn't
it?"
Angel: "I like them both."
Cordelia's instinctive ability to nail the issue without flinching
still serves her well, but it's tempered by her ability do the
one thing she couldn't do before. She can put herself in another
person's shoes without worrying about appearances. Whereas before
- like when reaching out to Buffy during When She Was Bad - Cordelia
would deliver her advice with a slicing wit covering her intuition,
now she's able to include an awareness of how the other person
may be taking the news.
During Untouched, she volunteers to spend time with Bethany while
Angel tries to find out more about the guys who'd attacked Bethany.
Without any knowledge of the previous night's event, when Bethany
tried to seduce Angel (and failed), she still nails the issue.
Cordy: "Don't bone my boss."
Bethany: "What?"
Cordy: "Angel. He's strictly a no-bone."
Bethany: "I wasn't... (Cordy raises her eyebrows at her)
Cordelia, I don't wanna sleep with Angel."
Cordy: "The thing about Angel, he's old-fashioned - old fashioned
- like the age of chivalry. He sees you as, pretty much, the damsel
in distress. I think it's a little more complicated than that."
Bethany: "W-why are you... I never..."
Cordy: "I think you're kind of dangerous. I'm not being mean.
I like you. I do. But - you come on all helpless and... I mean,
people that have thought that you were helpless before - have
died."
Bethany: "Those men in the alley - that was the only... They
were gonna hurt me."
Cordy: "You could have floated them away - or-or spun them
until they puked. I don't know. You squashed them."
Bethany: "You don't know how scary it was."
Cordy sits down beside her: "Yes, I do. I had a vision of
you. That's how Angel found you. I felt everything. And those
guys are better off squashed, I truly think, but - somewhere in
that moment of panic a decision got made and I don't want something
like that to happen to my friends - or, and I can't stress this
enough, me. No matter what, sex complicates the equation - even
more than you think."
For the duration of season two, though, Cordelia is delegated
to the back of the crew with Wesley and Gunn, as Angel goes off
on his own search. When Angel returns, he recognizes immediately
that to win the good wishes of the others, he must first and foremost
make his peace with Cordelia. It's not just that she's been worried
about money while without the regular salary from Angel, it's
also that she considered herself an integral part of his team,
and he fired her. 'Vision girl' had replaced her previous self-identity
of 'high school princess,' and when he fired her, he left that
identity in serious doubt.
Without Angel, her visions fall on ears that aren't always as
well-equipped to handle her visions. When Angel returns, she's
dubious - in some ways, his rejection of her smacks of the same
damage she received from Xander. This time, though, she didn't
wish a horrible fate on him; she was able to pull herself together
and appear as if she were unperturbed, to the point of appearing
to hold a grudge.
Most of the time, the only way to see inside Cordelia is through
her reaction or prompting from someone else. She volunteers her
attitude and snappy remarks, but the only time I can recall her
volunteering her feelings without being prodded was shortly after
Doyle's death. She pushed Angel to talk about it, but as quickly
dropped the subject when the topic change presented itself. Cordelia
isn't one to just up and tell someone how she feels - though she
speaks frankly of how she sees someone else or an issue. When
it involves her, she's not always able to articulate it freely
without someone patient enough to ask her. Therefore, when Harmony
asks, Cordelia takes the chance, and speaks.
Harmony: "We were powerful, rich, popular."
Cordy: "None of that's changed for me - apart from the powerful,
rich and popular. - But I tell you one thing: I am happier now
than I was then."
Harmony: "Get out."
Cordy: "It's hard to explain. I'm telling you. It's like
- I don't know. I had these air pockets inside of me, and the
work I'm doing, uh, we're doing, it's-it's like the pockets keep
getting filled and I'm becoming me and.. (Harmony laughs) me has
had way too much to drink and me shut up.
I'm going to skip the Pylea arc, which seemed a big excuse to
use old Fox sets from Star Trek, just to give back story on the
Host and introduce a new character. There's got to be something
better to do with Cordelia's character other than make her look
like a reject from a renaissance fair. It took Joss almost three
seasons to cast off her origins as a stereotype, and let her grow
into a complex character that's intuitive, sensitive, yet still
sharp and unafraid to speak her mind. She's also able to hold
her own alongside the guys, and gleefully wields a nasty ax when
given the chance, even if she's still not at Angel's level. (For
instance, she had a nasty left hook at Harmony during the final
fight scene in Disharmony.)
Here's hoping that Joss won't shove her to the background for
another season before he gives her something to do other than
occasionally provide some comic relief.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: First Anniversary Character Posting Party Something
Or Other I Can't Remember Now Phrase Part 2 -- LadyStarlight,
21:19:26 08/23/01 Thu
OK, Sol, I'm nominating you for "ATPoBtVS Over-Achiever of
the Year" award.
Well done, go have a nap for a day or so now. ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> No, I don't think so! -- Solitude1056, 07:35:50
08/24/01 Fri
Save that title for Liquidram, who's doing two character analyses,
*and* writing major parts of the story! ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Great post! And I'll add just a rogue thought about
chips and visions -- Dichotomy, 21:31:03 08/23/01 Thu
I'm a bit sleepy as I write this, so please excuse the rambliness.
After reading your post, it seemed to me that there is a sort
of parallel between Cordy's visions and Spike's chip. While Cordy
was not technically evil like Spike (but she definitely could
have been a ruthless vamp had she been turned in the first season),
her visions (even more than being humbled by her sudden loss of
money) have been the catalyst for her growth as a character and
allowed her to really and truly develop into a more empathetic
person. While BV (Before Visions) Cordy showed inklings of feeling
for others, she usually reverted back to the stereotype, and even
though she was not so haughty, it was mostly because she was feeling
sorry for herself. Same with Spike: While he always had the capacity
to love deeply (as with Drusilla) his most unselfish acts of love
came PC (post chip). PV Cordy and PC Spike both needed an extremely
invasive, internal influence to become what they are (or what
they have started to become.)
BTW, I began watching Buffy in S4 and Angel from S1, and just
got my hands on Buffy S1 and S2, so I've watched Cordy's character
development in a mixed up manner, with Spike a constant presence
(and pleasant distraction), so that may be influencing my viewpoint.
.
What do you think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: First Anniversary Character Posting Party Something
Or Other I Can't Remember Now Phrase Part 2 -- Humanitas, 21:31:29
08/23/01 Thu
First of all, great job. Cordy is one of the most under-appreciated
characters on both shows, both by the fans and the wirters, I
sometimes think, and you showed her complexity nicely.
I have to disagree with you on the Pylea arc, though. I thought
that plotline was absolutely essential to her character arc. True,
she was already evolving beyond her old stereotypical existance,
but her time in Pylea provided the ultimate cap for that process.
Suddenly, she was rich, important, Chosen - all the things that
she had missed since her father's run-in with the IRS. She was
also confronted with a guy who could love her, in Groo. And she
gave it all up, because it just wasn't her destiny.
GROOSALUGG It was foretold in the ancient prophecies, one will
come who is cursed with the visions; she shall mate with the Groosalugg
whose demon blood shall absorb them.
CORDELIA Absorb them?
GROOSALUGG Your visions will pass to me.
CORDELIA I knew there had to be a catch! You can't take my visions,
I need them, I use them to help my friends fight evil back home.
GROOSALUGG And I will use them to fight evil here, just as you
have done.
CORDELIA Groo... I can't give up my visions. I like them. Okay
I don't like the searing pain and agony which seems to be getting
steadily worse. And lately, until the vision gets solved: anxiety
overdrive.
GROOSALUGG You are pure human, you are not meant to carry such
a burden.
CORDELIA Maybe not, but I'm not ready to give 'em up, either.
They're a part of who I am now. They're an honor.
Honor. Who would have ever thought we'd hear that notion come
from Cordy's lips? It is at this moment, when she is given the
opportunity to put down her burden, and refuses to do so for the
good of the world, that Cordelia really grew up. It can be argued
that she'd accepted her fate much earlier, but this was when she
proved it.
BTW, loved your characterization of her costume. "Reject
from a renaissance fair," indeed! LOL
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> sorry... I hit sixteen pages & figured I needed
to leave something for y'll to add! -- Solitude1056, 21:37:00
08/23/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Great post, Sol. Have to agree with Humanitas,
though, about Cordy and Pylea -- OnM, 07:15:46 08/24/01 Fri
I wanted to comment some on this last night, but it was just getting
too late. Of course, I should be the one to talk since I conveniently
dropped discussing the Riley/VampHookers/Buffy breakup arc in
my post. Oh, well.
I agree that Cordy's opportunity to get rid of the visions, and
passing up on same was a crucial moment in her developing maturity,
and for me it ws one of the great payoffs of the Pylea story arc,
which when it first started had me really going huh?? for several
eps. I stuck with it, though, and really got to enjoy the payoffs--
which of course all came crashing down when the happy fang gang
finally returns home to the hotel, and finds Willow there-- and
it's whack ya upside the head time once again.
In his series of episode reviews and analyses, jenoff has repeatedly
stated that there appear to be clear parallels between events
on BtVS and A:tS, although they are not always clear until after
the fact. I think Dichotomy hit the fastener on the topmost part
when s/he states that there is a parallel drawn between Spike
and Cordy in terms of their character developement. Cordy has
now had her chance to divest herself of something that she stated
repeatedly that she despised and wished to be rid of in the worst
way. She changed her mind.
I suspect that early in season 6, we will see Spike get a genuine,
unambiguous chance to remove or disable the chip-- and what will
he choose to do?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Sheesh, is it always ATLtS with you folks?
:-) -- Solitude1056, 07:34:38 08/24/01 Fri
True, there was a running parallel between Cordy & Spike in terms
of their separate deus ex machina (machinas?)... but Cordy made
the concious choice to keep hers. Spike, so far, does not appear
to have had that choice. That's where they part ways.
And yes, you're both right about the Pylea arc - like I replied
before, I'm just stretched a little too thin right now to get
out any more than I did. There's so much to Cordelia, but it's
all subsurface. She's written and played like a superficial ice
queen but in fact she, like Doyle, has hidden depths. Ironically,
it wasn't until seeing her reaction to Doyle's death that I could
start to glimpse perhaps what it was that made Xander be so attracted
to her. It was probably just buried deeper when she was in high
school, but I still think it was there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> And just HOW long have you been
on the board? ;) -- LadyStarlight, 07:56:07 08/24/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> I never mentioned the Peroxide one,
not once..............:):):) -- Rufus, 14:35:13 08/24/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Perhaps another season passes on
A:tS and it becomes ATLtC -- OnM, 22:08:50 08/24/01 Fri
Anyone else here think that Cordy could eventually become as interesting
as Spike, character-wise?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> right there with ya Sol -- JBone,
19:40:08 08/25/01 Sat
I have a nice sized pecan tree in my backyard. When I start going
nuts over all the "effulgent" talk contaminating every
other thread, I go out in the yard and start banging my head against
it (`a la Charlie Brown). good grief
if this posts twice, you have my apologies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: First Anniversary Character Posting Party Something
Or Other I Can't Remember Now Phrase Part 2 -- Wiccagrrl, 21:35:43
08/23/01 Thu
Great job, Solitude. Cordy has grown to be one of my favorite
characters. She could have been such a one-dimentional character,
and I'm *so* glad they let her grow and let us see some of her
hidden depths.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Got an ax, some ink, where is the party????;) -- Rufus,
22:47:58 08/23/01 Thu
Cordelia is just so much fun. Good looks, money, does well on
stanardized tests, who could ask for more? Cordy has been the
Rich Bitch we would all like to at times send to hell. Her comments
about the softer side of Sears beg a question...Hey, Cordy how
you liking your new shopping digs? Cordy is the girl that thinks
it then says exactly what she thinks a la Earshot. When all the
other characters were worried about how the change in Buffy would
effect them Cordy was thinking of herself...only. I think she
makes the perfect side kick for broody boy in LA. He now is forced
into interacting with others, like it or not. In Room with a View,
Cordy lost her confidence in the situation that forced her to
deal with a dead bitch. The thought of losing her status as the
Queen of Bitches, Cordy finished off the phantom mother from hell
and got a new roomate, the nice, helpful(reminds me of the men
who used to slavishly wait on her) Dennis. Cordy has changed from
the girl with the car and charge accounts, to the girl who has
a vampire buying her clothes(they were all red, is the guy colour
blind?). I do hope that she doesn't get lost in the new character
shuffle. Cordy may be a bitch but no one will ever make her a
cryBuffy. My question is where the hell is her family? I thought
we knew little about the families of the other Scoobies, but we
know more about Angel's family than Cordys? There is a story there,
I wish they would tell it.
Great read Sol, you just "covered" me in paper, I guess
keeping that promise you made in the other thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: First Anniversary Character Posting Party Something
Or Other I Can't Remember Now Phrase Part 2 -- Ryuei, 23:39:07
08/23/01 Thu
"Her growth has repeatedly been in the wake of someone else's
actions"
There is a good insight. In fact, I think that in general it is
very hard for anyone to change and grow until they have been touched
by the kindness, compassion, and even self-sacrifice of others.
And if you think about it, this is true of the other characters
as well.
Buffy was like Cordelia until her first watcher Merrick showed
up. So even Buffy was not without a catalyst for self-growth.
Also, even recently, without the help of her friends she would
not have pulled herself out of the catatonic despair she had fallen
into.
Angel was just a dumpster diving has been of a night fiend until
Whistler found him and gave him a mission, but it was Buffy's
simultaneous courage and innocence which touched him and really
made him a hero.
Doyle also went from being an irresponsible ne'er do well to a
hero who sacrificed his own life for others because he was inspired
by Angel's renunciation of a mortal life with Buffy.
So there is a chain of each character's actions impacting the
others and on and on. I think this is what happens or can happen
in real life as well - it is just a little less dramatic. Our
acts of kindness, compassion, courage, and even self-sacrifice
are inspired by the examples of others, and hopefully our own
actions as parent, spouse, friend, co-worker, or whatever can
positively impact the lives of others as well.
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo, Ryuei
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> well, sort of. -- Solitude1056, 21:55:38 08/24/01
Fri
Actually, my point was that Joss has effectively left Cordelia
to be cardboard unless she's somehow emotionally involved in the
growth of another character - then and only then has he shown
us her side of things. When Xander recognized his attraction to
Willow & it all went too far, it affected Cordelia, and we saw
her side. We didn't see her side again (and I count The Wish as
being part & parcel of 'seeing her side' in that instance), until
Xander started to grow up & recognize how he could really make
amends, and there was a flash of seeing her side. Otherwise, for
three seasons, she was essentially opaque. That's hard enough
when the character is shy, like Tara, but even harder when it's
rooted in a stereotype.
Ok, so her time on AtS, this has been shifting slowly. It seemed
to have stalled for a bit, but hopefully the Pylea arc - for all
my other issues with it - is the route to bringing her back to
the forefront.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> ooooooooooo -- Mike, 06:27:02 08/24/01 Fri
You know, I have watched only a handful of Angel episodes, mainly
because I didn't want to devote any more of my precious time to
TV.
Reading your post on Cordelia, I am wishing that I had sat through
the series. I feel like I have missed out on many important IMPORTANT
things. Who'd have thought Cordelia would have turned into someone
so interesting!
Guess that's me saying job very well done Sol. Question - did
you CHOOSE to write about Cordelia as she is a pet favourite,
or because your initial choice had already been selected by someone
else?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> pet favorite -- Solitude1056, 07:30:53 08/24/01
Fri
I mean, with some of her lines? Man, I could've done twenty pages
just of her back-and-forths with folks, and I didn't even include
some scenes I wanted to, since I figured I could sum those up
and try to keep it moving along.
Cordelia's always been someone who has the ability to say not
only what's on her mind, but to say it with such sharp wit that
you're left going, "man, wish I could zing like that."
Some have compared her to Anya, and yes, there's a similarity
in that both are tactless and blunt. But Cordelia ranks way over
Anya in total wit for the fact that her tactless and blunt statements
are invariably so slicing. Anya's tend to be, well, blunt.
Amusing side note: Charisma Carpenter has mentioned in interviews
that although Cordy has some of the best lines, she herself is
far from that witty. In fact, she comments that she frequently
wishes while off-camera that she could come up with a few of those
on her own. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> pet favorite -- Mike, 07:45:40 08/24/01
Fri
I think we all sometimes wish we come up with something better
after the occasion... if you see me walking down the street talking
to myself animatedly, that's what I'm doing :)
So to be able to do so shows a very quick mind. Somethign better
to have than to be able to regurgitate text books in academic
tests, a much more natural intelligence.
Cordelia's wit comes from all of us. Anya's is inhuman, and comes
from outside looking in .. so near, and yet so far (alike)...
see how much you've made me think Sol! Which is definitly a good
thing :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: pet favorite -- gds, 07:10:10 08/25/01
Sat
Another amusing side note. From what I have read, CC went to audition
for Buffy & SMG went to audition for Cordy. I haven't been able
to imagine the Buffyverse with that role reversal.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Cordy quotes -- JBone, 19:10:16 08/25/01
Sat
One of my favorite Cordelia scenes comes in season two in the
episode "Bad Egg". It's a classroom discussion about
the drawbacks of sex. Of course it's taken over by Cordelia and
Xander.
Cordelia: Like that compares to kissing a guy who thinks the Hoover
technique is a big turn on.
Xander: What about having to feign interest in her vapid little
chitchat just so you can get some touch. (A little snippet while
Willow has the most bewildered facial expression.)
Some of my other favorite Cordy lines.
Pieces, we get the pieces, our job sucks! - Cordelia (Innocence)
And keep your mom aged mitts off my boyfriend. Former! Why has
everyone gone insane? - Cordelia (Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered)
Oh thank goodness. I actually had to talk my grandmother into
switching cars with me last night. - Cordelia (Passion)
So this isn't about you being afraid of hospitals, cause your
friend died, and you want to conjure up a monster that you can
fight, so you can save everybody, and not feel so helpless? -
Cordelia (Killed By Death)
Oh, you mean 'cause of how the only guy that ever liked her turned
into a vicious killer and had to be put down like a dog? - Cordelia
(Faith, Hope, and Trick)
What's going on? Oh, God. Is the world ending? I have to research
a paper on Bosnia for tomorrow, but if the world's ending, I'm
not gonna bother. - Cordelia (Helpless)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: First Anniversary Character Posting Party Something
Or Other I Can't Remember Now Phrase Part 2 -- Rattletrap, 06:46:44
08/24/01 Fri
Great post, Sol.
One question: What is your take on the Cordy/Wesley pseudo-romance
at the end of season 3?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> nice job -- cknight, 20:39:21 08/23/01 Thu
nice job :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> despite the total lack of remembering... -- Solitude1056,
20:43:55 08/23/01 Thu
what the proper title is? gee. heh. ;-)
thanks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Well done! Thanks, Sol... ;o) -- Wisewoman, 00:28:23 08/24/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Great Sol! Part 1 -- Nina, 09:57:10 08/24/01 Fri
Lovely Sol! :)
I can't say I have ever been a big fan of Cordelia, but as Mike
pointed out, the way you describe her makes me regret not to have
catched the first season of AtS.
The fact is that Cordelia didn't grow a new personality over the
years. She always had it in her, she just learned let it out.
She learned to stop wearing a mask (sorry for the Spike parallel,
but that's another one). Cordy comes from a rich family and it's
obvious that she didn't get all the love she needed to become
a caring person. Her obsession with clothes is similar to the
people who feed too much to cover a lack of love. It's over compensation.
She needs to be queen in school because she obviously wasn't queen
at home. Cordelia wears a mask in school. She won't tell her friends
about Xander for a long time yet she pushes him in a broom when
she can, she will cover the fact that she knows Buffy (but inside
she kinda like her anyway - at least respect her). She laughs
with her friends but we see on the side that she isn't happy there
(mostly during the begining of her relationship with X.) Cordelia
as always been afraid to show her real side to people. The side
that wants to break free. She needs to be loved and be appreciated.
Even in "Disharmony" she tries to be serious with Harmony
and than fakes to be flaky so she can cover her realself.
About the Xander/Cordelia relationship: Xander is the heart part
of the SG. The normal guy. Xander has always been attracted to
beautiful girls, but he is deeper than Devon and I don't think
that even if he had had the proper "coolness" factor
he would have dated flaky girls (he like hot chicks that are smart).
Hooking Cordelia and Xander together was the first step to showing
us that Cordy was all apppearences. Xander could feel there was
more to her than a stereotype. I believe this is why Cordy was
attracted to him. He was probably the first guy who was ready
to see more in her than a hot girl. He was challenging her. The
fact that Prince Charming was a frog made her squirm, but the
princess learned to see beyond appearences.
About Angel: Someone mentioned that she forgave Angel more easily
than she did with Xander. It is true, but there was no "girlfriend
getting her heart ripped out" involved with Angel. As a human
being she has been slapped in the face, yes! But when we give
our heart to someone and that person cheats on you it's harder
to forgive. Had Angel been her lover I highly doubt that he would
have been forgiven with clothes! :)
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[> [> ooops! There's no part 2! (unless you want me to...
;>) -- Nina, 10:01:22 08/24/01 Fri
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[> Excellent essay(s) -- mundusmundi, 20:23:45 08/24/01 Fri
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[> Very illuminating! -- rowan, 06:27:15 08/27/01 Mon
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
-- Humanitas, 20:57:30 08/23/01 Thu
Has anyone else noticed that Buffy doesn't trade quips with her
vampire opponents any more? I think the last one she unleashed
her wit on was the guy who nearly staked her in FFL. She talked
a little with the one in the opening of "The Gift,"
but there was no humor there. Any thoughts?
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[> Re: Correct me if I'm wrong, but... -- OnM, 21:09:58 08/23/01
Thu
Buffy hasn't been fighting many vamps to quip with over a good
part of Season 5. I think that getting staked by the vamp and
then later on the interaction with Spike tended to make the humor
more understated and ironic, rather than lighthearted and 'punny'.
The scene in *The Gift* was an example of this, remember the joke
about 'Oh, god, my leg, my leg'? This bon mot was interspersed
between the 'Fighting isn't cool' and 'You're just a girl/That's
what I keep saying' bookends.
I see this as an outgrowth of the harshly forced maturity the
events of S5 put upon her. My suspicion is that this trend will
continue in S6, the humor will still be present, but shift in
tone.
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[> You're not wrong :) -- Wiccagrrl, 21:17:25 08/23/01 Thu
If I were at full slayer strength, I'd be punning right about
now (Buffy in Helpless)
First, there weren't exactly a lot of vampire opponents in the
mix after FFL. But, I really think that all the stuff that was
being piled on- Riley leaving, Joyce's death, fighting Glory,
Tara being hurt, the threat to Dawn...I think it was all really
weighing on Buffy. I think she was getting fairly depressed by
the end of the season, and the punning just wasn't coming as easily.
I always thought the punning/humor was one of those things that
gave Buffy some emotional distance and perspective- things I don't
think were much in abundance at the end of season five. There
was some banter with the vamp in FFL, but IMO it felt a little
forced. Her "That's what I keep saying" line, though,
rang very true.
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[> Re: Correct me if I'm wrong, but... -- Cactus Watcher, 21:22:35
08/23/01 Thu
Actually she didn't do much on screen vampire staking last year,
period. (With the big exception of the 7 vamp pimps and prostitutes
in episode 10,) unless I missed something, she only staked two
vamps (one in The Body, the other in The Gift) in 16 of the last
17 episodes! The first five episodes she was so intent on the
hunt, there was little time for any banter.
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[> [> Re: Correct me if I'm wrong, but... -- darrenK, 09:27:58
08/24/01 Fri
She also had a funny exchange with a vamp in Checkpoint before
Spike dusted him.
Remember...
Buffy (to a vampire she's fighting): "Miss Summers! Some
of us are here to learn, Professor! Maybe you would like to teach
your own class!" Vampire: "Who are you talking to?
It was one of the funniest exchanges of Season 5. dK
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[> [> [> That's my point, though. -- Humanitas, 09:49:51
08/24/01 Fri
She's not talking to t