August 2001 posts

Shooting script site latest FOX victim -- Masquerade, 14:44:26 08/13/01 Mon

Hi all,

Well, I got the e-mail that I'd been dreading getting ever since I started the site. The Fox lawyers have ordered me to remove the scripts. So I complied. There was no use fighting it because I knew that what I was doing wasn't exactly legal.

So the The Buffy Shooting Script Site is gone. (I put up a farewell not and explanation at http://www.mustreadtv.com/buffyscripts )

If you're on this list, don't rush to unsub - because I might occassionally post a tidbit or two from the scripts.

It's really been a pleasure.
Rayne

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[> Ooohhhhh, damn it :( -- AK-UK, 15:19:51 08/13/01 Mon

I can't believe it. I NEED that site! Reading those scripts....sometimes it was BETTER than watching the episodes (and, living in the UK, it meant I didn't have to wait for months to "get" the latest episodes).

This sucks :(

Hey, I have a little legal knowledge, and whilst I'm not fully up to date on US copyright law, I'm suprised to hear you say that the site wasn't exactly legal. What laws would you be breaking? It was a non-profit website, and the published scripts had been taken down......surely you have some defence under "fair use"?

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[> [> I'm no lawyer... -- Cactus Watcher, 16:21:01 08/13/01 Mon

but I know profit isn't an issue. You can't reproduce books, articles, scripts, etc. for distribution without permission of the copyright holder, period. Quoting copyrighted material is fair game, but not copying whole works or even substantial chunks of works. Back many years ago universities in this country (USA) got in trouble for xeroxing virtually unattainable books from abroad. The reason the rules have been loose on the internet is the fact that the net crosses international boundries, and the governments have been loath to step on each others' toes. Now that jurisdiction is being sorted out, look for a lot more of this. It's a shame, but that's the way it will be.

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[> [> [> Anyone here a lawyer (Cleanthes... Anthony8 sorta??) -- Masquerade, 17:02:18 08/13/01 Mon

I'm not very worried about my site (pause to knock on virtual wood), but I am concerned about theslayershow.com where I get all my pics for my site now. Would this be considered copyright-protected material, or alternatively, a violation of using copies of a t.v. show for personal home use only?

Not to mention psyches' transcripts!

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[> [> [> [> My understanding of US copyright law -- AK-UK, 18:08:02 08/13/01 Mon

Ok, I'm ready to get shot down in flames, but from what I remember....

Distributing copyrighted material isn't inherently copyright infringement. Courts will look at:

The pupose and use of the distributed material (are they doing it for educational puposes, like this site) and the commercial aspects of the distribution (getting money from copyrighted material is a big no-no)

How much of the copyrighted material is being distributed (generally speaking, using a small percentage, like a paragraph or a screenshot, will be ok)

The commercial impact of distributing copyrighted material: i.e. Will your actions result in the copyright holder losing income? (which is arguably the case with the shooting script site).

Has permission (explicit or implied) been given by the copyright holder to distribute said material?

I haven't been to theslayershow.com, but I'd suspect that limited screenshots would be considered fair use (as long as they don't charge you for downloading them).

Pysche's transcript site would also (I suspect) be ok, because of it's non-commercial nature.

However, I'm not a US copyright expert -- and there's nothing to stop FOX getting it's lawyers to use bully tactics even if the website owner isn't breaking the law. I suspect there aren't too many people who would risk standing up to a multi-billion dollar corporation......although I seem to remember a something along these lines happening to various X-Files fan sites. If I remember correctly a lot of them simply ignored the threats.

Hmmmm.....further investigation seems to be called for.

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[> [> [> [> [> Berne Convention -- Solitude1056, 18:26:29 08/13/01 Mon

Technically, US copyright law is fundamentally the same as international copyright law, due to the Berne Convention Treaty. The real issue with the internet usage is whether the copyright holder can show a loss of income. Given the intentions to continue publishing the scripts for BtVS, it's possible that Fox would use this as a basis, and thus step around the usual "personal use" issue.

However, it seems a little odd, since most fanfic, and fan-related sites (such as screen shots, publicity stills, quotage, and transcripts) have been shown to create more income for the copyright holder, and not reduce it. That's because it feeds the fans, who then want more, of which some part of what they get/buy/use is something profitable for the copyright holder. In the case of some of the other major fan-related sites (Hercules, X-Files, etc), I've come across commentary from the producer, director, or creator of the show that knocking down fan pages in fact reduces the show's profitability because the fans get offended and react accordingly.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. FOX, like its counterparts at NBC, CBS, and the like, may not get this minor but crucial element... but I think Joss and his writers do, since they were the ones distributing the bleedin' scripts in the first place. Unfortunately, it's all work-for-hire, which means none of those scriptwriters has even the minutest say as to the use of their scripts. Even Joss doesn't hold the copyrights on everything.

Bummer, too.

However, I doubt Psyche's site will go down, unless the owner's easily unnerved. While Denmark is a participating country in the Berne Convention (I think, not all EU are), that doesn't necessarily mean that Denmark's going to automatically enforce some lawyer's request. Denmark would, however, enforce the withdrawal of the webpage based on a court order, and frankly that means money, time, and effort on the part of FOX. Ok, so maybe the legal department at FOX has nothing better to do this summer, but then again, it's not like anyone's going to track down the Psyche site owner and extradite him/her to the US... and it's certainly not like FOX can get any money out of him, anymore than they could out of Rayne.

So it's likely that when they find the Psyche site, it may get a letter. But if I owned that site, I'd sit tight and wait until I hear more. Denmark's a long way away for the FOX legal department to be able to justify stretching their arms to strangle blood from a turnip.

So, in that sense, I wouldn't stress about images, either. As long as you're not posting the video in full, they can't claim that you're causing loss of income. As a matter of fact, one could always argue (as have many fans before us) that our usage in fact leads to more income for them. Courts aren't stupid, they pay attention to the counter-arguments... and the fan-related argument of "limited usage without malicious intent or financial harm" does hold water.

I'm a photographer, not a video person, but the copyright laws are (for the most part) pretty analogous across the various mediums. On the other hand, I could be just blowing smoke outta my...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Berne Convention -- Rufus, 18:59:28 08/13/01 Mon

Tell me is this is so...the transcripts of the Closed caption are available, so what would the difference between that and Psyche's transcripts?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Uh... I dunno, honestly. -- Solitude1056, 20:37:10 08/13/01 Mon

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[> [> [> [> Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in ;-) -- Anthony8, 00:15:43 08/14/01 Tue

Just let me disclaim that my venture into the world of law was one of the most unhappy times of my life, so these days I am a faithful practioner of selective amnesia when it comes to dispensing any information that might be a product of my legal education. You really want someone who is actively practicing to advise you on these issues. Also, I received my legal education before the advent of the World Wide Web, so what I know with respect to Fair Use of copyrighted material is probably substantially less than your average layperson who is Net savvy.

I consider myself a musician these days (actually, I was always a musician, but bad choices in my youth led me down an evil side path--I've played my own version of Lindsay in couple of Wolfram and Hart-like firms) and the only reason I venture into the belly of the legal beast these days is because legal temp jobs pay substantially more than any other 9-5 work for which I am qualified. I have worked for more than my share of Holling Manners, so every time I finish an assignment, I'm relieved to escape the building still in possession of my soul.

That having been said, I'll just put it this way--when it comes to Fair Use on the Internet, there simply are no hard and fast rules except that if you receive a Cease and Desist letter, the game's over for all intents and purposes unless you have the resources and daring to attempt to make new law by testing it in the courts. The fact that we could make any number of decent arguments (or for that matter even be 100% in the right)regarding Fair Use is all fine and nice in this forum, but just having a good argument won't cut it when litigation ensues.

In most cases, the suits don't go after the little guy unless they feel that they are being deprived of an income source as a result of the alleged infringement. On the other hand, there are quite a few lawyers out there who have to make it look like they are doing real work in order to justify their obscene salaries, so there you have it. About a decade ago, Coca-Cola sued a local SF mom & pop diner for trademark infringement because the diner did not inform its customers that it was serving Pepsi when asked for a generic 'coke.' And from that day forward, when you ask for a 'coke,' a server must ask you "is Pepsi okay" if that is the only cola they serve.

Given the money making potential of commercially published script books, it's not too surprising they went after the shooting script site. I wouldn't be surprised if they go after the Psyche Transcript site next, even if it does reside on a foreign server.

Sol's post was right on the mark. What we do here, and on most fan sites, enhances the value of Fox's property and keeps their suits in nice homes and Bimmers. Without us, "they're pretty much watching 'Masterpiece Theatre' to quote the lithe blonde one. These bean counters who run the entertainment industry never quite grasped the concept of symbiosis. It eluded them when it came to home taping 25 years ago, and VCRs in the early 80's and it continues to this day with respect to Napster (although I'm extremely ambivalent about Napster) and recordable DVD. They screw the artists and they screw the customers. And yet they provide no real value of their own. Nature couldn't have designed more perfect parasites. There was a great book on the subject called "Hit Men" that I would recomment highly if it is still in print.

I wish I could be more helpful, but the last thing I would ever want to do is dispense bad advice. If it were me, I'd just play it by ear and not worry too much for the time being. Unless you are independently wealthy, there's probably no point in fighting it either. Once again, you should consult a specialist if any legal action beyond a Cease and Desist letter seems likely to occur. If you're interested in learning more about copyright infringement, Fair Use and the Internet I found a couple of sites that offer some decent general info:

http://www.rbs2.com/copyr.htm

and

http://fairuse.stanford,edu/

A8

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in ;-) -- Cleanthes, 07:07:35 08/14/01 Tue

I agree with all this.

Leaving aside that these small siteowners couldn't afford the legal fees, but looking only at the chances at trial, I'd feel good working on the defendant's side in most of these cases where the copyright holder is trying to shut down a site -- because, what are the copyright holder's *damages*? In most cases, the copyright holder uses some strongarm tactics in the first instance to try to shut down the site. Bingo -- no equitable remedies available when it all comes to trial because of the clean hands doctrine.

So, that leaves only the legal remedy of damages and the infringer gets to offset any damages with *gains* - for example, Masquerade here is almost certainly providing a greater value in free publicity than any loss in "revenue" from ... well ... what exactly?

The shooting script site though is putting up something that could (or is?) sold. I used to buy Xena shooting scripts from Creation, but I haven't bought Buffy scripts. Are they also offered for sale? If so, it's much easier to see how the copyright holder could show damages

Someday this issue will make it through the courts. I predict the infringer will win damages from the copyright holder because once a suit is filed, the infringer can counterclaim. Wouldn't that be sweet?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in ;-) -- Solitude1056, 08:43:37 08/14/01 Tue

The shooting script site though is putting up something that could (or is?) sold. I used to buy Xena shooting scripts from Creation, but I haven't bought Buffy scripts. Are they also offered for sale? If so, it's much easier to see how the copyright holder could show damages.

Actually, they might... but then again, Rayne could also demonstrate strong diligence in that she does not post published scripts that can be purchased in book-format from the copyright holders. If you wanted season 1 scripts, she had a link to Amazon, and to Psyche. Her site didn't carry them. When word got out that Season 2 was going to be published, she posted a note that she'd be removing all season 2 scripts shortly. Given her insistence on this, I find it especially irritating that FOX chose her to be the latest shutdown.

Personally, I'd think in court her diligence would count for something, that she recognized that her site would be in direct competition then with the copyright holder and thus did not post all scripts. On top of that, her scripts are invariably the original form, lacking many of the later edits that result in the final version. As far as I know, the copyright on the final script may be held by FOX, but I dunno about the rough drafts. That's a wierd area, anyway - I hold copyrights on all my negatives, regardless of whether the client purchases licensing rights on all or only one. I have no idea whether that's analogous to Big Mega Teevee Corp.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What peeves me... -- Masq, 09:03:23 08/14/01 Tue

Is that Rayne always got her scripts up within days of the episode airing. Psyche's helpers take longer. It was really helpful in doing my episode analyses not to have to play, pause, and rewind my taped version of the ep. Rayne's transcripts always helped me get my analyses done in a timely manner.

Guess it's back to play, pause, rewind!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I use the closed captioning to help me get the quotes I want....... -- Rufus, 12:07:34 08/14/01 Tue

Pluse that dreaded pause, rewind, repeat cycle.:):):):)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I use the closed captioning to help me get the quotes I want....... -- Masq, 13:41:30 08/14/01 Tue

I always have CC on. But it doesn't make the pain go away. You're still playing, pausing, and rewinding.

And don't even get me started on reading the Latin incantations off the screen!

The bummer with Rayne's scripts is they included translations. *sigh* : (

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, you could assemble a little team... -- nathan, 13:06:14 08/14/01 Tue

maybe you could set up a team comprised of a bunch of ATPoBTVS posters to do the transcripts. each person could do a certain section or scene in the episode. Blah does the scene before the first commercial. Blah #2 does the scene after that until the next commercial. and so forth. might be a little tedious, but it could save time...

~nathan~

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[> Hmmmm....fudgsicle.....bug***........:):):) -- Rufus, 15:53:47 08/13/01 Mon

They weren't just scripts they were study guides.....now I guess they want to make sure we buy the overpriced, oversized scriptbooks that they are only up to season two on.

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[> This TOTALLY BLOWS - and not in a good way. -- VampRiley, 18:13:42 08/13/01 Mon

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[> I needed those research materials! -- verdantheart, 05:48:51 08/14/01 Tue

Crap! Thank goodness I printed out all I needed for my character analysis already! It wasn't as though they were kept there after they were published in book form.

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[> [> The aired-version transcripts are at Psyche's site -- Masq, 09:05:04 08/14/01 Tue

http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/

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[> [> [> Re: The aired-version transcripts are at Psyche's site -- verdantheart, 14:21:23 08/14/01 Tue

Thanks. I also use those, but it's really nice to see the differences between what was written and what aired. Won't be able to do that anymore!

Buffy the Hero! (from U.S. News & World Report) -- mundusmundi, 13:34:26 08/14/01 Tue

Just got this week's issue. It's a special edition devoted entirely to "Heroes," mostly real-life ones. But there's also a page devoted to fictional heroes, including one we all know well. Here's an excerpt from the article below....

***

BUFFY SUMMERS, 20, of UPN's Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Heroic deeds: In the season finale, she granted the ultimate boon: her life. (Don't worry, she'll be revived.) And don't forget the blows to her social life from constant slayage.

Classical roots: Buffy was meant to be mythic. Creator Joss Whedon studied with Wesleyan professor Richard Slotkin, author of Regeneration Through Violence. "The term I use constantly that I stole from him is 'the man who knows Indians'-the person who straddles two worlds but belongs in neither," says Whedon. That's Buffy-stuck between the demon and human worlds.

Flaw: Buffy may be too merciful-she doesn't kill a human enemy whose death could save others.

Grade: She's a mediocre student, but as a hero she earns an A+.

***

Lara Croft got a D. Heh.

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[> Re: Excellent - thanks -- Dedalus, 17:46:20 08/14/01 Tue

Buffy: 1st annual character posting party -- Nina, 17:03:52 08/14/01 Tue

Buffy. What's in a name? Mrs. Rosenberg called her "Bunny" (Gingerbread). Spike called her "Betty" (Superstar). Buf-fy???????? What kind of name is that? Who's that girl? Who's that heroin who is so often left off the "who's you're favorite character" list? Is that petite blonde so hard to love? All threads lead to Spike.... but so seldom to Buffy. Here's a little tribute to her. May all threads lead to her in the future (at least this one should :).

_______________________________________

I. BUFFY

Before the Slayer there was a girl

BOY: You're just a girl
BUFFY: That's what I keep saying (The Gift)

Before she was called, Buffy was pretty much a normal Cordeliaesque adolescent. She was part of a gang. She was popular. Member of the cheerleading squad. Prom princess and fiesta Queen. All her care in the world revolved around friends and boys. Hanging out. Having fun. Like so many household her family was broken before any divorce took place. She even forshadowed some deliquency behavior (stealing lipstick). From this period of relative tranquility, Buffy brought along with her her 1. her love for ice skating (the ice capades without the irony) 2. Mr. Gordo (her stuffed Pig), 3. Her love for dancing and 4. Her clothes (don't play with those Sunday!) 15 years of a normal life that's all Buffy got. Becoming the slayer changed everything drastically and Buffy spend her first four years as a slayer yearning for normality again.

BUFFY: I want to leave
WESLEY: What? Now?
BUFFY: No, not now. After I graduate, you know, college?
WESLEY: But you're a slayer.
BUFFY: Yeah, I'm also a person. You can't just define me by my slayerness. That's something-ism. (Choices)

It is true that most people still tend to define themselves by their job and their title. As the Little Prince of St-Exupéry said, we shouldn't define a person by the work they do, but according to what they like. That's the way to learn who someone really is. Buffy is a slayer, but she also likes cheese, round shaped earings and "Wind beneath my wings"! But I guess it's still not enough to know her...

The dumb blond with witty puns

BUFFY: You know it's probably none of my business but I just gotta ask: did you smell this bad when you were alive? If it's a post mortem thing, then hey, so not your fault and boy is my face red. But just so you know... the fast-growing personal grooming's come a long way since you become a vampire. (Fool for Love)

Buffy is not an intellectual. She's an action girl. Her speech pattern colorfully illustrate it. She often talks with broken sentences. Right to the point. No flourish. Does this mean she's dumb? Um. One could wonder sometimes if the dumb blond myth is true, but like any real human being Buffy harbors many contradictions. When she fights she will come with a repertoire of witty puns all the time. It's coming to her very easily. When she's into slaying, words are flowing, when she's normal Buffy, she oscillates between sheer stupidity and pure genius. Here are some of her finest "dumb blond" moments:

XANDER: You're up for some reconnaissance?
BUFFY: You mean where we all sculpt and paint stuff?
XANDER: No, that's the renaissance. (The Freshman)

And:

BUFFY: I'm like that kid in the story, the boy who stuck his finger in the duck.
ANGEL: Dike. It's another word for a dam.
BUFFY: Oh, okay, now that story makes a lot more sense (Gingerbread)

Buffy may suffer from undiagnosed dyslexia. She often has a problem to remember difficult words and often misuse them or alter them. In "Faith, Hope & Trick", she will call Kakistos "Kissing toast", "Taquitos", and "Khaki trouser". In "Tough Love", she'll call a haiku "a poem that sounds like a sneeze'. In "Nightmares" she will call Billy's astral body "Billy's asteroid body". Buffy is not a bookish girl either. She prefers to watch the Hunchback of Notre-Dame on video instead of reading the book (Crush). Dawn teases her about cracking up some books sometimes as she knows nothing of Harry Potter (Real Me).

BUFFY: There's a lot of book on this list. Any of them come on tape? You know read by George Clooney or someone cute like that? (Real Me)

At school, she's usually an average student with no particular curiosity or aptitude for studying.

BUFFY: I have to take an English makeup exam. They give you credits just for speaking it, right? (Faith, Hope & Trick)

Yet sometimes she gets to surprise herself and her friends. She aced her SAT's and got to do better than Willow on an assignment in professor Walsh's class.

Because Buffy is not high maintenance, she remains very simple. The writers will often mock her to endear her to us, like in "The Initiative:

SPIKE: I don't care how brilliant she is. CUT TO:
BUFFY: Stupid pen. (her hands are soaked with ink)

Or "School Hard":

SPIKE: So, how 'bout this Slayer? Is she tough? CUT TO:
Buffy's room. She's standing at her mirror, trying to brush her hair.
BUFFY: Ow!

Buffy will also have enough wits to know when to play the dumb girl to save her ass from a situation.

BUFFY (to Prof. Walsh): So I've seen. On the discovery channel with gorillas and sharks. They made them all nice. Have you seen it? (The I in team)

She also often knows a lot more than it seems.

BUFFY: Um, as much as I'm sure we all love the idea of going all Willy Loman... We're not in the band. (Band Candy)

Okay, she may only have seen the movie of "Death of a salesman", but still it proves that she can mix witty and dumb comments. Buffy is not black and white. She's shades of gray. Like we all are.

RILEY: You are amazing! Your speed, your strength.
BUFFY: (I'm) also passionate, artistic and inquisitive. (Doomed)

Even though Buffy can come with witty puns as fast as a magician can make a rabbit appear from a hat, communication is not Buffy's forte. When it's time to talk about difficult issues, she tends to shy away and avoid them.

BUFFY (to Riley): Let's not talk about it and patrol. (New Moon Rising)

RILEY: You don't wanna talk about it.
BUFFY: It's just that deconstructing Angel can wait. Right now I just want to go out there and patrol. Find Adam. We can talk about it later. (The Yoko Factor)

SPIKE: Common' we need to talk.
BUFFY: We don't need to do anything. There is no "we". Understand. (Crush)

The importance of family and friends

XANDER: You've been through it all with Angel and you're still standing. So, tell us, wise one, how do you deal?
BUFFY: I have you guys. ( The Wish)

The core of the scoobie gang (the original gang) gave to Buffy what she didn't have at home. A sister, a brother and a father. As we've seen in "The Wish", without friends, Buffy would probably be a mix between Kendra and Faith. She would lack the love, support and understanding that are so important to keep her rooted and balanced in the real world. Spike in "Fool for Love" will say the same, telling her that her mom and the scoobies are what tie her to the world, they prevent her from succombing to her death wish. Blessed with friends, Buffy will still yearn for a "slayer family" though. People who know what it is to fight demons. A family where her slayer powers will be elated. Where she will feel normal. This is why, even though her friends mean so much to her, Buffy will sometimes push them away and befriend new people. People who are part of that slayer family. Thus, she'll hang out with Faith (Bad Girls) and with the Initiative soldiers (The I in Team). Both time she's trying to be part of that slayer family. Both times she's disappointed. Faith and the Initiative both turn their back on her.

Insecurities and abandonment issues

1ST SLAYER: You're full of love (...)
BUFFY: I'm full of love? I'm not losing it? (Intervention)

Over the five seasons, 3 episodes were particularly dealing with fears: Nightmare, Fear itself and Restless. We got to witness that one of Buffy's inner fear was abandonment (by father or friends). It's seems very cliché to talk about the repercussions of divorce, but what can I say, I know the drill myself, divorce deepens our insecurities. Even though Buffy tries to live a normal life she is overly lacking that father presence. In "Nightmares" she is afraid that her father doesn't love her and many years later she will have this conversation with her mother that proves that this issue is still hovering over her head:

JOYCE: Your father loved spending time with you.
BUFFY: Not enough I guess
JOYCE: Buffy.
BUFFY: Oh, that just paved right over memory lane, huh?
JOYCE: You know the divorce had nothing to do with you.
BUFFY: I don't know. I'm starting to feel there's a pattern here. You open your heart to someone and he bails on you. Maybe it's easier to not let anyone in. (Fear Itself)

Everytime Buffy let anyone in, she lived to regret it. Owen was too Reckless, Angel turned evil, Scott Hope dumped her, Parker used her, Riley got himself bit by vampires whores and finally left her. During all this time her father was M.I.A. No wonder Buffy has abandonment issues. No wonder she always feel she has to please and become someone she's not to date a guy. She'll want to read Emily Dickinson to flirt with Owen, she'll dress as a 18th century lady to please Angel, she won't fight at full strenght with Riley in case he's too frightened by her powers, she'll laugh at Ben's jokes to show that she's not self involved. By the end of "I was made to love you", Buffy decides to remain single and learn to be comfortable with herself before being involved again. A huge step into breaking the walls that make her always choose the same kind of guys.

Too much way on her shoulders

FAITH: Hey, what's up with B? I mean, she seems wound kinda tight. Needs to find the fun a little. (Faith, Hope & Trick)

Buffy had to grow up very fast. When the girls her age had nothing more to think about than what color of lipstick to wear, Buffy had to make life and death decisions in a matter of seconds. She had to face death at 16, send her lover to hell, go through 6 apocalypses, fight hundreds of demons. Who could expect her to just back off and have fun? Despite all those circumstances, Buffy surprisingly still managed to find time for some R&R at the Bronze, try out for the cheerleader squad, compete for Homecoming Queen and host a Thanksgiving dinner at Giles'. Trying to get the shadow of a normal life gives her the strenght to continue her fight against evil. Without those distractions she'd be anything but the Buffy we know.

In season five though, Buffy is confronted to a lot more pressure than usual. A lot of responsabilities. Suddenly the weigh on her shoulder becomes almost unbearable. She loses control. It all begins with "Buffy vs Dracula". Dracula charms his way to Buffy. He compliments her and she's flattered. She's seduced. Another fear Buffy has, as we've seen in "Nightmares" and "Fear Itself", is to be unable to fight a vampire back. To become one of them or to die by their hands. The fact that she is powerless to resist Dracula's charms scares her. She isn't in control. And *control* here is the key word. For the first time of her life she meets a vampire she can't kill. He rapes her, metaphorically speaking, and she becomes a victim. Freaked out she asks Giles to act as her watcher again. She needs to know more about herself. She needs answers. Why wasn't she able to resist that thrall? Where are her powers really coming from?

Afterwards, Buffy needs to prove herself again with all the vamps she meets. Needs to be the one in control. Not to let "that" ever happen again. It's too bad for Spike, but he shows too many ressemblance with Dracula and he will be the one getting all the blows: Drac was attracted to her physically (so is Spike in FFL when he almost kisses her), Drac comes into Buffy's room at night (so does Spike in "Into the woods") Drac bites her (so *almost * does Spike in OomM), Drac tells her her power are rooted in darkness (so does Spike in FFL when he tells her about the slayer death wish). Buffy is in a quandary. Instinctively she will come to Spike for help, as seen in Real me, OomM, FFL, Checkpoint, BT, TL, Spiral, The Gift. She trusts him with the life of the people she loves the most in the world, yet she needs to beat the crap out of him everytime she sees him. Many fans found Buffy's attidute bitchy. I simply believe that Buffy was afraid. Still that control issue to resolve. (It's interesting to note that Buffy will punch Spike on the nose everytime she will have failed to have control over a vampire, but as soon as her life is not threatened anymore by other vamps (after FFL) Buffy will stop beating Spike (okay she does in "Crush" but he deserved that one for once!)

The discovery of the origin of her sister will also bring a lot of pressure on Buffy's shoulder. As soon as Buffy knows that Dawn is the Key, she will overprotect her. Acting sometimes more like a mother than a sister. Her mother's illness will bring Buffy to overprotect her too. Not only does she has to solve her own issues as a slayer, but she has to be the grown up. She has to become the parent of the family. She doesn't know how to deal and will keep everything bottled up instead of talking to Riley or her friends. One thing leading to another, Riley will leave, her mother will die, Dawn will be kidnapped by Glory. Her world will fall apart and so will Buffy.

Buffy has wanted out on many occasions (when she refused to fight the Master, when she flew away from Sunnydale after killing Angel) but where ever she went there was no out. To be out when you are a Slayer you have to die. To survive Buffy endured everything until it was too much. Until she couldn't take it anymore and went into catatonia. In "The weigh of the world" Buffy is separated in two in her own mind. Buffy the femine girl and Buffy the slayer. Only there's no such thing as two different entities. Buffy exist only as a slayer and the slayer lives in Buffy. Her inner journey is to let them merge and coexist without hostility.

II. THE SLAYER

Becoming the Slayer...

GILES: It's all about the journey (Restless)

The transition from normal girl to superhero took quite a long time to accept. Each year Buffy had to go through a 5 steps to grief program (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance). Each year she began a little stronger than the last.

Year one (denial):
In the first season, Buffy is in denial land. She has been kicked out of Hemery in L.A and is looking forward to going back to her carefree life as an average teenager.

GILES: I don't understand this attitude. You, you've accepted you're duty, you, you've slain vampires before...
BUFFY: Yeah, and I've both been there and done that and I'm moving on (...) I'm retired. (Welcome to the Hellmouth)

She will often put her slayer's duty on hold and privilege her social life.

BUFFY: If the apocalypse come - Beep me. (Never kill a boy...)

Giles often has to put her back on track and remind her that her mission is to save the world, not having "post pubescent fantasies with boys":

GILES: Follow your hormones if you want, but I assume I don't have to warn you about the hazards of becoming personaly involved with someone who's unaware of your unique condition.
BUFFY: Yeah, yeah, I read the back of the box. (Never kill a boy...)

At the end of the season she casts a last pleading supplique:

BUFFY: I'm 16. I don't wanna die. (Prophecy girl)

But after realizing how much she is needed, she will accept her faith and will fight the Master.

Year two (anger):
During the second year Buffy will be the Slayer out of duty. She still needs to be told to be a Slayer.

BUFFY: Sacred duty, yadda, yadda, yadda... (Surprise)

She's often angry to be told to patrol. She is also angry about herself not to have known better about Angel. Anger and pain is what will attrack James the ghost in "I only have eyes for you". When she discovers her friends have been almost killed by Angel in "Becoming part 1", anger will give the power Buffy needs to accept that she has to kill her lover once and for all.

Third year (bargaining part 1):
By the third year, Buffy tries to open herself to new perspectives. Killing Angel was the most painful thing she had to do and she tries to build back her life. With Faith she witnesses a different point of view. Faith kicks ass and likes it. Buffy moves from considering slaying a duty to seeing it as a job. She's getting more mature about it. Conscious of her responsabilities, she's starting to make compromises.

BUFFY: We help people, it doesn't mean we do whatever we want. (Consequences)

At the end of the season she'll bargain her life to save Angel. Even though things turned out well, she was ready to sacrifice herself for love.

Fourth year (bargaining part 2):
During the fourth year, Buffy is Watcherless.

GILES: Well, officially you no longer have a Watcher. Buffy, you know I'll always be there when you need me, but you'll have to take care of yourself. (Freshman)

Buffy has to learn to become self-reliant. She's not only growing up as a young woman, but as a Slayer as well. Buffy will understand and accept her role as the Slayer even more when she is confronted to the Initiative. She's becoming possessive like an animal who needs to delimit its territory.

BUFFY: This isn't your business. It's mine. You, the Initiative, the suits in the Pentagon... You're all messing with Primeval forces you can't begin to understand. I'm the Slayer. And you're playing on my turf. (Primeval)

Fifth year (depression):
In the fifth season, Buffy has become a hunter. She will patrol every night on her own without needing Giles to tell her to do so. She won't like other people to patrol with her anymore. It's also the year of depression. Buffy will swallow everything up and will cry alone. She takes everything on her shoulders and feels indispensable (deep sign of depression). She will go on until she goes catatonic and refuses to go back to the real world. It is only at the end of "The Gift" that she will finally come to total acceptance and sacrifice herself with love.

BUFFY: This is the work I have to do. Tell Giles, tell Giles I've figured it out and I'm okay.

There's no way to say yet if Buffy will need a depression part two phase before totally accept her faith, but the fact remains that over the years Buffy not only became a better slayer (better agility), but in her choices she showed true compasion and love for humankind. She probably even was the first slayer who ever saw her existence as more than the kill.

Fighting techniques

SPIKE: She's tricky. Baby likes to play. (...) You see that? The way she stakes him with that thing? That's what's called resourceful. (Halloween)

Buffy's forte is her unpredictability. The lack of attention to tradition. The fact that she can improvise. Giles in the first two seasons and then The Council of Watchers reproached those qualities many times. They tried to show her how unprepared she was, but Buffy may not fight accordingly to the book, she still managed not to die for a long time (oups... she is dead technically... But well you get my drift!)

As said before, the use of puns gives her an edge. She destabilizes her attackers and makes it less personal. Buffy who can find it so hard to have a deep talk about deep things, will chat and banter with her victims like there's no tomorrow. It's a way to forget about the kill.

BUFFY: You're gonna get heartburn. Get it? Heartburn?
The vamp dusts and gives no reaction.
BUFFY: That's it? That's all I get? One lame-ass vamp with no
appreciation for my painstakingly thought-out puns. (Wild at heart)

Anger is also a powerful way for Buffy to defeat her attackers. We've witnessed on many occasions when anger got her the extra strenght she needed to win the fight. Here are some examples:

Harsh light of Day: as soon as Spike mentions Angel Buffy pummels him like a beast in fury.

Homecoming: After Scott Hope broke up with her, Buffy unleashes her anger on Faith. (FAITH: You really have some quality rage going. Really gives you an edge)

Triangle: As soon as Olaf, the Troll, says that Xander and Anya won't make it as a couple, Buffy beats the crap out of him.

Checkpoint: Humiliated by Spike, council of watchers and university professor, Buffy beats the hell of an anonymous vamp in the cemetery (VAMP: Who the hell are you talking to?)

Blood Ties: When Glory calls Spike Buffy's boyfriend, Buffy finds new strenght to punch Glory in the face.

Even though Buffy will often refuse to admit that slaying is a turn on and that she likes it, she only fools herself:

KEN: That... was not... permitted.
BUFFY: Yeah, but it was fun. (Anne)

In "The I in Team", we see intercuts of scenes between Buffy and Riley fighting and making love. Buffy may still deny how much she likes slaying, her actions often prove the contrary. In "Buffy vs Dracula" she confesses to Giles that she was out every night during the summer, hunting for vamps. She will even leave the love nest to satisfy her needs.

Leadership and authority

Ms. Calendar: The part that gets me, though, is where Buffy is the Vampire Slayer. She's so little. (Prophecy Girl)

Buffy is little, but when it comes to orders in the slayer department, Buffy is the one giving them, not receiving them. Her integrity, loyalty and straighforwardness make her a born leader. She's the one leading her army to battle. Defying authority and being a woman after her own heart is what characterizes her.

GILES: Just do as you're told for once, alright!
Buffy punches him in the face. (Prophecy Girl)

WESLEY: Are you not used to being given orders?
BUFFY: Whenever Giles sends me on a mission, he always says 'please'. And afterwards I get a cookie. (Bad Girls)

When confronted with outside authority (school in particular), Buffy sometimes will feel diminished though.

PROFESSOR REEGERT: Do you understand? You are sucking energy from everyone in this room. They came to learn. Get out!
BUFFY: I didn't mean to... suck.
She exits. (Freshman)

But it usually doesn't last. Buffy is the defender of the weak and she will learn to defend herself when in need. She'll be impressed by Professor Walsh's authority, but will find the guts to tell her she has no compassion in "Something Blue". She's impressed by The Council of Watchers, but will have a straight talk with him at the end of "Checkpoint".

The quest for love

Buffy is no conventional slayer. Her need to understand her nature takes her apart from her kin. Buffy won't accept to fight only to lose herself in the bargain. She needs a raison d'être, a purpose. She needs to understand and bring the slayer and the human in her in perfect harmony.

BUFFY: I'm just ... starting to feel ... uneasy about stuff.
GILES: Stuff?
BUFFY: Training. Slaying. All of it. It's just ... I mean ... I can beat up the demons until the cows come home. And then I can beat up the cows ... but I'm not sure I like what it's doing to me.
GILES: But you've mastered so much. I mean, your strength and resilience alone-BUFFY: Yeah. Strength, resilience ... those are all words for hardness. (pause) I'm starting to feel like ... being the Slayer is turning me into stone. (Intervention)

She will go on a quest to know more. The spirit guide will give her a few pointers:

GUIDE: You're full of love.
GUIDE: Love, give, forgive.

But will also unsettle her with her final blow:

GUIDE: Death is your gift.

From this encounter, Buffy will find some sort of resolution in her life. She'll be able to forgive Spike. Out of love she'll sacrifice her school life to take care of Dawn. She won't understand the "Death is your gift" part on the spot, but will nevertheless accept it as part of the package.

The hero's journey

The jungle cat is the steward of the rain forest and keeper of the gateway of death. The jaguar helps to dismember that which must die in order for the new to be born. (Alberto Villoldo, "Shaman, Healer, Sage")

The jungle cat was present in "Restless" when we got to see Miss Kitty Fantastico in slowmotion walking her way towards us. We meet him again when he takes Buffy to her spirit guide.

BUFFY: Hello kitty! (Intervention)

Every hero, in order to be a hero, has to face the ultimate fear that is death. Be it in the raw sense of dying or in the metaphorical sense of transforming oneself into something else. Before her own dismissal, Buffy had to face a lot of pain, a lot of loss. She lost Riley, her mother, her life ("I have Dawn's life"), she even was ready to lose her friends if they were to kill Dawn. She shed her skin like a snake, losing what was precious to her. Until there was nothing left but love. Then she made the final jump. The leap of faith. She jumped to save her sister, to save the world. As a true hero, she left words of love to her friends and hope. She sacrificed her life. And for once it seemed as if she finally had found her true purpose in life. Love.

May she rest in peace... But not for too long!

Quotes coming from:

- Jotted down while watching the episode (50%)
- Psyche's transcript site (45%)
- The Watcher's guide books 1&2 (5%)

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[> Wonderful.......... -- Rufus, 17:27:33 08/14/01 Tue

Just printing off a copy I'll get back to you...great job.

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[> [> Re: Wonderful.......... -- Dedalus, 18:31:58 08/14/01 Tue

Glad to see I'm not the only one who prints out hard copies of some of this stuff ...

:-)

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[> [> [> What's really scary.... -- mundusmundi, 14:47:12 08/16/01 Thu

...isn't just printing out the posts, but highlighting interesting passages with a yellow marker as you read them.

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[> [> [> [> As long as you don't use too many colors... -- Nina, 17:16:21 08/16/01 Thu

it won't be qualified as quirky! ;)

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[> [> [> [> I do the highlighting thing as well......... -- Rufus, 17:36:18 08/16/01 Thu

Using many colours I may add.......:):):)Next thing, I'll be investing in a pocket protector.

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[> [> [> [> [> I don't have a printer so... -- Nina, 17:39:13 08/16/01 Thu

I imagine I'm saving a lot of trees (but I also spend way too many hours reading from the screen instead of a sheet of paper!) I'd probably go for the highlighting thing too if I had the chance to use it!!! :)

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[> [> [> [> and beyond highlighting... -- Solitude1056, 06:59:05 08/20/01 Mon

is not only highlighting in different colors, but summing up the pages' arguments in the top margin of the page, with additional commentary & responding arguments along the side margin, in an ink pen that corresponds with the highlighting color so you know while studying which commentary & argument goes with which quotage. ...Uh... not that I ever do this. No, not me. I never, ever write in books. Pfffft. Sacrilege!

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[> [> [> [> [> whoa--sounds like the talmud, w/color! -- anom, 10:50:42 08/20/01 Mon

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[> [> [> [> [> Okay, okay.....you've done it........Sol you have......... -- Rufus, 14:47:20 08/20/01 Mon

Won the Golden Pocket Protector award for those who excel in being studious (I think the word is nerd). I may highlight in different colours but write notes in a seperate note book....just can't bring myself to write in a book. When I borrow someones book I keep it in a Ziplock bag just like evidence that I don't want to mess up....my friends think I'm wierd but do like getting an unblemished book back.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Better a nerd than an ziploc-carrying AR-bie! -- Solitude1056, 17:15:19 08/20/01 Mon

I mean, really, a ZIPLOC BAG? Tell me you're pulling my leg! I don't write in books 'cause I'm a nerd, I do it because it's the only way to organize my thoughts. Short-term memory loss from all that fun in college, yanno. Some thing never really recover. Uh. *cough*

Anyway... back to your regularly scheduled postings...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Call me naive...but what is an Ar-bie.... -- Rufus, 18:10:36 08/20/01 Mon

Is that an American term? As to the Ziplock bag...I kid you not....do you know just how wet it is on the west coast? I just happen to have a thing about keeping books in the best shape. As for College "I" never got into any mischief whatsoever....not me...never caused any either....;)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Call me naive...but what is an Ar-bie.... -- Solitude1056, 19:00:21 08/20/01 Mon

someone who's AR. as in, uh... can I use words like that here? hm. since this isn't meant as a mean thing, let's go with AR means "someone who's really particular." Verges on obsessive-compulsive on bad days, but that's okay, since we all know Rufus never has any of those! ;-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, that's what you meant............;) -- Rufus, 20:01:42 08/20/01 Mon

No, not me..... have I told you about Ziplock slipcovers lately?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Call me naive...but what is an Ar-bie.... -- Humanitas, 20:55:35 08/20/01 Mon

Hehe - The polite version you're looking for, I think, is "detail oriented." Don't know anyone like that, myself, of course. ;)

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[> Re: Buffy: 1st annual character posting party -- Ophelia, 18:19:58 08/14/01 Tue

Wow that was awesome! Do you think that Buffy realized the 5th stage of grief (acceptance) by the end of last season? I've often thought she had. She had such a look of peace when she jumped into the portal. She seemed to have accepted her fate/purpose. I wonder if it's possible that she'll regress to earlier stages after she's been brought back.

Thanks for the wonderful analysis. You really did her justice.

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[> Quite good, must think for a while before making comments . . . -- Rattletrap, 18:47:40 08/14/01 Tue

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[> Lovely job, Nina - doing the printer thing also... -- OnM, 19:34:16 08/14/01 Tue

I'll have some more to say tomorrow once I can study it a bit more. I did like the reference to Miss Kitty Fantastico and the jaguar and the shaman- very cool.

It's hard to believe English isn't your first language. Fine work!

:)

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[> Re: Buffy: 1st annual character posting party -- Cactus Watcher, 20:19:40 08/14/01 Tue

I really enjoyed your comparison of what happened between Dracula and Buffy, and between Spike and Buffy. It's something I hadn't thought of before. I also enjoyed your section on Buffy getting more strength from anger. I think 'Don't make her mad' is one of the true reoccuring themes of the show.
As someone who has learned Russian to the point of teaching it at the college level, let me also compliment your English. It's a great accomplishment to write in a second language with your skill.

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[> I really enjoyed this. How about helping us out with Dark Alchemy? -- Talking Drum, 21:46:53 08/14/01 Tue

The Dark Alchemy contributors have been discussing how difficult it is to write for Buffy (the character). One issue I've asked about is what do we know about how she feels about all those people she has saved in her role as the Slayer. We know how she feels about her family and friends and about her duties in general. We have had glimpses of how she responds to specific individuals she has helped (Jonathan comes to mind). But what about the thousands of Buffyverse souls whose lives have been made better as the result of her efforts? Do they really matter to her or is that just too much for any one person, even a Slayer, to begin to comprehend?

TDrum

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[> [> I second the motion and raise you a "very well done!" -- Liquidram, 22:20:47 08/14/01 Tue

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[> [> [> I third it with a definite kudos for an excellent essay! -- Solitude1056, 12:11:48 08/15/01 Wed

If you can get into Buffy's head, and wouldn't mind at the very least beta-reading to give the writers an idea of whether we're on target with Buffy - that'd be greatly appreciated. As TD pointed out, for some reason she's the hardest to write for, tho' I'm not sure why.

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[> [> [> [> Gee! I'd love too! -- Nina, 14:56:58 08/15/01 Wed

I miss my daily reading! :) I'd love to help! Keep in touch with me! I know that I stopped reading a lot of other fanfic after a few paragraphs because the charaters just didn't cut it for me. Dark Alchemy is one of the few story I've read that really respects the characters we know! (So far I only noticed one thing that seemed peculiar for Buffy to do, I'll get back to you on that if you want!) Bravo to the whole team again and kudos to all of you too! :)

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[> [> Does Buffy care? -- Helen, 01:31:25 08/15/01 Wed

Well done Nina, I think Buffy is the hardest of all to give any coherent analysis of. She often seems like a cypher - the other scoobies revolve around her, and they are in so many ways easier to relate to.

Does Buffy care about the thousands she must have saved? I think so.

Season three Consequences:

Faith: People need us to survive. In the balance, nobody's gonna cry over some random bystander who got caught in the crossfire.

Buffy: I am.

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[> [> [> Re: Does Buffy care? -- verdantheart, 06:19:00 08/15/01 Wed

Really? In a lot of ways I see Buffy as the most "normal" of the Scoobies. After all, if it weren't for the Slayer factor, she probably would have continued along her sosh-cheerleader path--probably not have had great friends like Willow and Xander, admitted outsiders. Perhaps it is this very centered-ness, this average-ness, that makes her seem opaque. We can't latch our analysis to obvious character quirks or flaws. She's a lot like the rest of us, only better, more self-sacrificing.

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[> [> [> [> Thank you all! :) -- Nina, 08:34:21 08/15/01 Wed

Thank you! I'm happy if it makes a little sense and brings new way to watch at Buffy's character. :)

It was a great challenge, but really fun! Looking at everything through Buffy's eyes is quite an experience. I often forgot to do that during last season. That's why I could be so pissed off at her and her attitude. Maybe because she is a hero it is easier to relate to other characters that look more like us. I realized that Buffy's journey is a lot like anyone's journey in life. We are all torned between our mind and body. We try to merge them, be complete. Much like Buffy does with the Slayer and the girl in her. The Slayer powers are metaphorical for what we really are. We all are strong inside, we just need to acknlowledge it and accept it.

"Ophelia: Do you think that Buffy realized the 5th stage of grief (acceptance) by the end of last season? I've often thought she had. She had such a look of peace when she jumped into the portal. She seemed to have accepted her fate/purpose. I wonder if it's possible that she'll regress to earlier stages after she's been brought back."

Sincerly, I don't know! That's why I kept the issue opened! :) I don't believe she will regress though. She never has. One thing I didn't say (because it would have been a lot more work and I was too lazy at that point) is that each year is also a 5 steps to grief program by itself. Let's take season 5 for example. Buffy starts by denying Dracula's affirmations. She doesn't want to believe that her powers are rooted in darkness. That denial phase lasts until "Into the woods" when she switches to anger. As I said, in every episode after that her anger gets the better of her. After Crush she begins the bargaining phase. She bargains with Ben (if I laugh at his joke he'll like me), with herself (if I don't show how much I am in pain over my mother's death everything will be fine), with Dawn (I take your life on my shoulder). She's trying to learn more about herself. Until there's the depression phase in "Weigh of the world" and the acceptance phase in "The Gift". I did that fot every year (in my head!) and it pretty much work all the time (I'm not sure about the denial phase in year four though).

So yes, Buffy accepted her fate at the end of "The Gift", but each season she has accepted her fate as well. She did what she had to do to save the wrold. On the bigger picture it would just make sense that Buffy starts out in denial phase again in season 6 (doesn't want to return), then anger, bargaining... you know the rest! ;)

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[> [> [> [> [> Acceptance -- Kerri, 09:14:21 08/15/01 Wed

So yes, Buffy accepted her fate at the end of "The Gift", but each season she has accepted her fate as well.

It's true that at the end of every season Buffy has done what she had to do, but it isn't until The Gift that she really understands. In PG and Becoming Buffy did what she needed to do to save the world but she didn't understand why. She only understands and accepts her place and importance as the Slayer in The Gift when she accepts love. She nolonger resents the sacrafices she has to make she is okay with them because she embraces love for Dawn, for her friends, and for humanity. She understands that her job isn't about bringing death it is about bringing life, and that is a job that Buffy *wants* to do.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Acceptance -- Brian, 09:43:41 08/15/01 Wed

Each year, Buffy has had to reaffirm her identity as a hero. Usually this happens in the 1st episode of each season.
Each season takes her through the various levels and layers of partaking the Hero's journey. Each season the depth of that journey has deepen, become tougher, and harder to accomplish. Each season she has returned harder, tougher, faster, and more sure of her job, her destiny. This last season showed her on the hero's journey to the God-head.
When Buffy jumps off that tower, she merges with those many demon dimensions, with the God-head. When she returns, it should be her choice to return, and she will be stronger, more centered, and more at peace with whom she is. She has merged with supernatural powers, and her task will be to find the balance her new powers and her humanity.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Excellent Points Kerri and Brian -- Dedalus, 20:04:29 08/15/01 Wed

I feel the same way about The Gift. That was the first time it all really came together for her. I mean, that expression on her face at the end ... you know she just "got it." And even though it was a sad ending, it was blissfully triumphant too. Running toward death, yet with a twinkle in her eye and a bright expression, embracing life at the same time, the sun rising in the background ... I mean, come on. That's what it is all about. I know some don't feel this way, but it was such a beautiful climax/resolution, it's almost a shame to continue on with the series.

Than again, scratch that last part.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Scalability of the Hero's Journey -- Humanitas, 13:21:35 08/16/01 Thu

First of all, I gotta say, Nina, WOW! You did a great job with a difficult character. I'm so glad I got back to the board in time to see this.

I just wanted to comment on the way that the Hero's Journey (which it seems is another way of expressing the Grief Cycle) works on so many different scales in BtVS. There is the grand multi-season arc, the arc of each individual season, and the arc of each episode or small group of episodes. At each level the pattern is reapeated: stasis, intrusion, reaction, action, resolution. That fractal quality distinguishes this show from, say, Forever Knight (a show that I enjoyed, but was never compelled by), and is what keeps us coming back for more.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Does Buffy care? -- John Burwood, 09:27:17 08/15/01 Wed

Maybe the question is not: does Buffy care? but : for whom does Buffy care? think back to WttH - Giles tried to convince her to fulfil her destiny & protect the world & she did not want to know, but the moment Willow was in danger she was rushing to the rescue, and whenJesse was abducted, she dashing along intothe underworld to save him - with little chance of success & at great risk, & in ep100 she was ready to save Dawn if she sacrificed the world. It is for identifiable individuals that she cares, rather than for humanity & theworld as a whole. She cares in a real emotional way, rather than out of a detached &rational sense of moral duty. The essence of Buffy's character & attitudes is surely emotion, not calculation.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Does Buffy care? -- Kerri, 10:48:04 08/15/01 Wed

It is for identifiable individuals that she cares, rather than for humanity & theworld as a whole.

Yes this is true, and in season 5 Buffy had begun to become detached from humanity. It was through Buffy's love for Dawn-her emotional connection to the individual-that brings Buffy back to humanity. Dawn is humanity-the part of Buffy that she loves-and Dawn helps Buffy to reconnect with her purpose as the slayer because she realizes how much she loves humanity and that it is something worth saving. This gives Buffy peace in knowing that she has brought life not death, and life is something Buffy loves more than anything.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Does Buffy care? -- John Burwood, 12:09:02 08/15/01 Wed

To amplify my last post, which could have beenbetter phrased, with reference to the earlier post about problems writing the character in Dark Alchemy. Love the story, BTW, but I agree about the problem writing Buffy. Remember that when storybreaking Buffy scripts Joss / co always work out 'the Buffy' of the story - namely the emotional journey has to go through. You will need to work this out, but I do not see how until S6 starts & you can learn how Buffy has reacted to death. Don't ask what Buffy feels about humanity - people who say they care about humanity are either bona fide saints or have intellectuallyconvince themselves it is morally right to 'care' - this is not caring as gut feeling. Humanity as a whole is an abstract concept - gut love can only be felt for identifiable individuals not for abstract anonymities like the human race or society.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy and fanfiction -- Nina, 15:19:44 08/15/01 Wed

I love your point! It is true that in writing Buffy most people fail to work on her journey. Where does she starts and where does she end at the end of the story? I guess this is why ME's writers are paid so much! They have a lot more than "telling storie" to do.

Most of the time in fanfiction, Buffy ends up being the vessel of anyone's fantasy. Through her they live what they'd like to experience themselves. That's one of the reason she is so rarely Buffy-like. The hardest thing is to get in her head, try to understand why she acts like she do.

That's like the whole Spike thing in the beginning of season five. I don't say I found THE explanation (I'm sure I haven't!), but I figure there must be something that made her tick more than just: "I want people to hate me so I'm going to punch their bleachboy in every episode".

Another reason why it's so hard to get into Buffy's head is that we haven't really been in her head lately. It used to be easier to feel what she felt when Angel went bad. We could identify with the pain then. Last season, we hardly saw the world through Buffy's eyes. In "I was made to love you" it was the first time we got to see things like she did. And what happened? People disliked the episode. They found everyone too harsh with Spike. I think it was part of a strategy (it must be at least!). Buffy was in depression and , as someone mentioned above, all the other characters where finally getting somewhere with there lives. Most depressions go unnoticed. Had we been in Buffy's shoes and able to tell what she was feeling all the time, it wouldn't have been the same. We had to be cut from Buffy's world, we had to be split away from her, so we could feel how much she had grown in "The Gift". Well my humble opinion anyway (like always).

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[> Dumb Blonde -- Cactus Watcher, 10:50:00 08/15/01 Wed

I've been wondering if Buffy's 'ignorance' in the early years wasn't just an act.
We've seen as time has gone on that, she's quite bright. High SAT scores may not mean as much as some colleges seem to think, but they don't come out of nowhere either. I wonder if Buffy didn't act dumb, in the early years (and occasionally even this past season) as a defense mechanism. Perhaps she felt that if people thought she wasn't very smart they wouldn't criticize her as harshly when she made real mistakes. On the otherhand, maybe it was an in-crowd mentality; that in the circle she ran around in at Hemmery High (and the one Cordy ruled at Sunnydale high) it wasn't really polite to act too intelligently.
As for it being a case of her just growing intellectually and getting smarter naturally as time past, I sincerely doubt it! Nobody develops like that. There are certainly late bloomers, but they don't act as dumb as Buffy did at the beginning.

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[> [> Re: Dumb Blonde -- Nina, 11:08:10 08/15/01 Wed

Well I might have elborated on that part. I don't consider Buffy as a dumb blonde myself. I do believe that sometimes she just doesn't get it. It's quite evident looking in her eyes that she doesn't know what she is talking about sometimes. It's not part of an act. Buffy is intelligent and I agree that she wouldn't get high score like that if it wasn't *there* already. Professor Walsh said it herself: Buffy could do a lot more than B-. It's just that Buffy is not the intellectual type. She's emotional. She won't connect to something through a piece of paper (hence her dislike for books).

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[> [> [> Re: Dumb Blonde -- John Burwood, 11:39:03 08/15/01 Wed

I agree , but I would add a spin - her intelligence is more creative than reason-based. Both her punning & her Malapropisms are examples of not thinking in a straight line - she thinks laterally, intuitively, imaginatively - not like Giles & Willow learning lots of facts & applying them in an organized way - but taking apparently unrelated concepts and mixing them together inoriginal ways - hence thinking Khaki trousers for Kakistos, but also hence thinking fertilizer bomb for volcano. By nature she thinks 'outside the box'.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Dumb Blonde -- Anthony8, 12:05:23 08/15/01 Wed

And she has shown a facility to learn, retain and later use with great skill information that others (supposedly less attention deficity) have overlooked. I was specifically thinking of the scene in 'New Moon Rising' (was it NMR?) where she is freeing Oz and Riley from the Initiative and, with crossbow to the head of the base commander, tells the soldiers to let them by or she'll "go all William Burroughs." They're all "hunh?" She responds (I may be paraphrasing somewhat here): "was I the only one paying attention in English that day?"

A8

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[> [> [> [> [> Arcane bits of Buffyknowledge -- Tanker, 22:48:06 08/15/01 Wed

Besides the William Burroughs bit (which I don't get, btw), she once said that Faith "makes Godot look punctual" and commented to Giles that magic shop owners in Sunnydale have the life expectancy of a Spinal Tap drummer. Buffy is actually quite intelligent, and is capable of absorbing information and using it in creative ways. When she pays attention. Her academic problems are a result of being distracted by world-saving and personal issues. And possibly self-esteem issues, i.e. *she* thinks she's dumb, hence her confusion at her SAT scores.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Arcane bits of Buffyknowledge -- Rattletrap, 06:49:49 08/16/01 Thu

Borroughs tried a William Tell act with his wife, and accidentally shot and killed her.

Xander's comment about boring them to death with free prose is equally accurate, however.

'trap

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Arcane bits of Buffyknowledge -- KoopaFanatic, 09:38:38 08/16/01 Thu

And let's not forget her correct use of the word "oeuvre." That alone dispels the whole "dumb blonde" thing in my mind. In my entire college career I've never come across a person who could even pronounce it properly, let along work it into conversation! ;-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy and language -- d'Herblay, 20:37:33 08/16/01 Thu

One of my favorite of Buffy's habits is that she questions the meanings of dead metaphors. In "What's My Line, Pt. 2," she wonders "whole nine yards of what?" And in "No Place Like Home" after telling Giles that he'll be making money "hand over fist," she actually starts holding a hand over her fist, looking at it puzzledly. I think this shows how language is alive for her, which counts as a sign of intelligence in my book. Not that I have a book. Of signs which are counted.

Off topic, I'd just like to thank Masq for putting this thread back on the active board. Voy.com archives faster than I think!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and language -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 11:52:54 08/18/01 Sat

I totally agree about the language in Buffy. I know some people who seem to think that the use of language in Dawson's Creek is more interesting and I find this very difficult to stomach. It is just as unbearable to see television or film in which words are treated like artifacts that must be passed around carefully so they don't break as it is to hear cliches being chucked around like rubber balls. On Buffy, communication is active and energetic as it is (or should be) in real life.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffyspeak -- mundusmundi, 14:49:12 08/18/01 Sat

I've never been able to bear more than 5 minutes of Dawson's Creek,, but from what I gather every character talks exactly the same. Ditto the much ballyhooed Gilmore Girls. Not a bad show (I can stomach it longer than Dawson, though Lauren Graham does get on my nerves), but right now the clever dialogue sounds too much like clever dialogue. Maybe it'll sound more natural once the writers realize that their audience is hooked and they needn't resort to breathless His Girl Friday-style monologues.

Buffy, though, is different. The dialogue is distinct and witty, but somehow it's always sounded natural. I wonder if that's because Joss and his crew understand actual speech patterns. They insert lots of stutters and pauses. Also, each character has his/her own voice. Buffy talks different from Willow, Willow from Giles, and so forth. About the only other writer I can think of offhand who matches this is Elmore Leonard. He's been doing it for decades.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffyspeak -- KoopaFanatic, 13:13:24 08/19/01 Sun

Exactly right about the character voices... I'm one of those sad latecomers to BtVS, and I spent most of last summer going back and reading transcripts and scripts. After the first couple scripts, I realized you don't even need to read the character name to figure out who's talking.
Well, sometimes anyway.

The really scary thing is that the dialogue really is pretty natural. When you read it, it sounds stilted and not-at-all like the pretty prose we've come to expect on TV. Aloud, though, it sounds much like real English. Rarely do we see movies or TV that actually capture the odd word usements that people structure...

For a comparison, watch an episode of Babylon 5 right before Buffy. JMS couldn't write a believable line of dialogue to save his life. I've always wondered what B5 might have been had Joss been doing rewrites on it ;-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> She quotes Robert Frost too!! -- Rahael, 08:08:04 08/22/01 Wed

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[> [> [> [> [> [> The Spinal Tap comment always cracked me up since... -- Anthony8, 12:14:56 08/16/01 Thu

...Buffy would have only been 3 years old when the Spinal Tap mockumentary came out (and somehow she doesn't seem like the type of person who, in her teens or later, would have rented a 10 year old movie about an imaginary metal band). I recently recommended the Spinal Tap movie to a local, just into his twenties, movie rental store clerk and he did not realize that the movie was a joke. He thought, "oh, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zep, and Spinal Tap"--all great 70's metal bands.

I always thought that Buffy's Spinal Tap comment was one of those anachronistic pieces of dialogue that reflected the writer's own age bias. O/T somewhat, but I was watching the 'Bring It On' DVD with the director's commentary enabled and he pointed out that one of the big inauthenticities in teen films is that there is almost always a character (or even many characters) who listens to the type of music reflective of the director's age, tastes and personal high school or college soundtrack and would be unlikely to be found in any contemporary teen's music collection. Naturally, he had a 17 year old character in the movie who was heavily into the Clash, a band that had pretty much split before the character would have been out of diapers.

A8

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> actually... -- dan, 12:43:06 08/16/01 Thu

i'm twenty-three, and plenty of my friends who are as young as I am or younger love the film *Spinal Tap*. it's a classic.

Some of us like the Clash a lot, too. ;->

My favorite bit of Buffyarcana is in the early season 5 ep (can't remember the title for the life of me) when she's telling Willow about how "workin' hard is hard work" and how she had envisioned (paraphrase alert!) "a montage, with inspirational music: me in class raising my hand, me training with giles, me falling asleep over a book with my glasses falling off my nose - 'cause in my montage, i wear glasses". Has anyone else heard "montage" used correctly on a TV show?

-d

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: actually... -- Andy, 13:07:00 08/16/01 Thu

Yeah, Spinal Tap is one of those movies, like Star Wars, that has a way of renewing itself with each generation. Not to mention that for kids, one of the ways to be hip and knowing is to try and dig up old stuff to enjoy instead of the shallow new stuff that everyone else likes. I'm an 80's kid but when I was in school there were people who wouldn't shut up about Led Zeppelin, for instance (of course, to some extent, I was one of them) :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: actually... -- Nina, 17:28:45 08/16/01 Thu

Actually, we sent a few French words your way! (don't worry we use plenty anglicisms here too!) I thought about including that part about the montage in the essay, but I didn't dare to do more than Wisewoman or OnM (one page was enough for me!)

About the word "oeuvre" mentioned bellow (I think), it is true that SMG has a knack for French words! (by the way "oeuvre" is not so hard to prononce once you get that the voyel sound "oeu" is only a "buh" sound) That's one of our "old French" rules that scares all the French learners: what you hear is not what you get on paper. Maybe one day the old people at the Academie Française will realize that 14th century French is not cool! :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Spinal Tap comment always cracked me up since... -- KoopaFanatic, 13:29:29 08/19/01 Sun

The interest in a previous generation's music and pop culture has always seemed pretty common. When I was in high school ('92-'96) Pink Floyd, Journey, the Beatles, the Clash and Bob Dylan all had their dedicated fan groups. In the theater clique, watching "The Wall" after our spring play was a major ritual.

Additionally, plenty of people discover all sorts of new music and movies upon hitting college. In my first year, I remember branching out heavily from the mainstream pop/rock that had gotten me through high school... Enya, NIN, all sorts of classical, and George Clinton all played a major role in that year. It doesn't strike me as too unlikely that someone would have dragged Buffy (and other freshmen) into a hall-wide viewing of such college classics as Spinal Tap and Wizard of Oz/Dark Side of the Moon, and Animal House.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Do we really know what kind of music/films the SG like? -- A8, 17:39:39 08/19/01 Sun

We know Xander likes 'Apocalypse Now,' that Giles is partial to The Who and that Dawn listens to "aggressively cheerful music sung by persons selected for their ability to dance," (we probably can guess who that refers to--name your 'mook' or 'midriff'), but what do we really know about the SG's tastes in entertainment besides the incidental music that can be heard in the background at the Bronze or occasional party that is shown?

All this talk about one generation rediscovering the styles and entertainment of previous generations got me to thinking about how some nostalgia must not seem so alien to kids these days. When, 'Freaks & Geeks' was on, the clothing styles, if not the music, weren't that different than what they were showing in the Old Navy ads that played during the commercial breaks. Yikes, and I never thought those clothes were that attractive back then!

A8

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> SG taste in music -- Rattletrap, 05:21:38 08/20/01 Mon

From the posters that decorate the walls in every episode, we are led to believe that the entire gang are huge fans of Widespread Panic and The String-Cheese Incident. Does anyone know what the story behind this is? Both of these bands have picked up many of the Grateful Dead's old fans since *sniff* Jerry Garcia's demise *sniff*. Is one of the set designers a Deadhead or something?

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[> [> [> [> Other evidence -- Cactus Watcher, 12:30:36 08/15/01 Wed

To add to what Anthony8 just said-
In Becoming part II when Buffy and Joyce are arguing just before Joyce warns her to stay in the house or not come back, Buffy wishes she had the time to do a number of things instead of having to go save the world. One of them was just to be able to go up in her room and study. It wasn't her first choice certainly, but the fact she mentioned it at all is significant I think.

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[> [> Re: Dumb Blonde -- Rufus, 23:54:31 08/15/01 Wed

I have to remember my experience in college as a petite, blonde. I found that some of the men in my Crim class got downright hostile when I did well in tests (beating them that means) one had a tantrum and said that I couldn't possibly have gotten such a good mark cause "you're blonde". I told him that the pigment of my hair or gender and size didn't change my ability to think. Well, then I told him to "piss off" in a very unladylike fashion. I have found that my stature and hair colour made many assume that I was going to be a dumb blonde til I opened my mouth. Then I had to deal with an atmosphere of threatened hostility and constant teasing. When I first saw BVS I was glad that they were making a show about someone who was the same size as me at the same age. It's so easy to stereotype people and we all do it. Buffy proves that brains come in all forms...some of them blonde.

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[> [> [> OT: I'm a tall brunette and had similar experiences in college -- verdantheart, 06:17:51 08/16/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> I apologize... -- Cactus Watcher, 08:46:24 08/16/01 Thu

for the assinine male behavior you two and others experienced. The real problem the guys were griping about may have had nothing to do with you personally. That hardly excuses what they did.
I can think of two similar incidents in college. The first was a statistics class I was required to take outside my department. Everyone else in the class was in business school. There was exactly one woman in the class, and by chance we sat on opposite sides of the room. She and I were getting by far the best grades. When test time would draw near, the guys near me would gather around to find out what I was going to spend the most time studying. The guys on the other side of the room seemed to ignore the girl. The real difference seemed to be that the instructor made a point after each assignment of giving a compliment to the woman for her work to encourage her. I never saw any of the guys grumble about it, but I can image some of the dumber guys thought she was getting special treatment, when the instructor was just trying to encourage a very good student to stay in business school. Don't think I'm suggesting that you're cases were similar. They probably weren't.
In the other incident I can think of, the shoe was on the other foot. It was a class of about 12, half men, half women. Being an upper level class, we all knew each other. One day I happened to overhear two of the women talking about the class. They were griping that the men were getting special treatment. I was startled and a little offended. I walked away without interrupting. I thought about it awhile, and decided that concerning this particular professor they might be right. The professor did seem to be favoring the men a little. Not only was the professor an attractive young woman, but the two women who were griping about her, regularly walked to church with her!

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[> [> [> Re: Dumb Blonde -- anom, 12:21:23 08/16/01 Thu

I took an introductory computer class in college (back in the punchcard days!). The instructor used a term--don't remember what it was, but a pretty basic one--without explaining it. (Probably forgot it was an intro class.) We all looked at each other uncomfortably. No one wanted to admit not knowing what it meant. Finally a small blonde a few seats away (wasn't you, Rufus, was it? @>) AU, '70s?) asked, "What's a [whatever it was]?" The relief in the room was palpable, but a guy sitting next to me leaned over & said, "What a dumb question!" I answered, "Come off it, you know we all wanted to ask. She's the only one who had the guts." I wonder if being treated as dumb may teach some blondes not to be afraid to ask questions that might make them look ignorant. In a paradoxical way, it might actually be empowering.

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[> [> [> Re: Dumb Blonde -- purplegrrl, 14:56:05 08/20/01 Mon

I agree, Rufus. When I was in college I had to put up with people thinking I was either a Bio or Chem major because since I was blonde and somewhat attractive I couldn't possibly be a Geology major (which I was). And I had some of these people in my Geo classes!! Being blonde and being smart tends to put a cramp in some people's styles. ;)

And, until Buffy came along, I was really tired of the blonde in horror films always getting killed by the end of the first act. One of the many reasons I don't usually watch them.

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[> [> [> Stereotypes for every purpose, really. -- Solitude1056, 21:39:21 08/20/01 Mon

A friend of mine's hair is naturally a very pretty light strawberry blonde, and she had her natural haircolor through most of college. She was also a double major in History & Theology, and graduated magna cum laude in both - and no, I don't mean a concentration, I mean a double load o' classes. The woman is a walking textbook brilliance case. She frequently commented that she got treated as a nitwit because of her hair, and it put a chip on her shoulder... so she dyed her hair red. To her astonishment, treatment from friends was radically different. They were acting as if they expected her to be feisty, argumentative, and, well, easy. Yes, in the sexual sense.

Blondes are treated like they're vapid, brunettes get the brainy stereotype (and worse so if they wear glasses), and redheads carry the connotation of being sex-obsessed, fight-obsessed spitfires. Oh, and don't forget those with black hair: exotic, mysterious, unapproachable. And yes, the stereotypes exist on the opposite side of the gender coin, too. Look at the fact that we've got a character in our ongoing group fanfic that's supposed to be mysterious & exotic. There wasn't even any discussion; he's got black hair, like Angel. And Riley was a brunet. No way to win, unless you take my sister's route and change your hair color every week...

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[> [> [> [> Stereotypes for every purpose, really. -- Brian, 03:42:24 08/21/01 Tue

Absolutely. What's interesting about hair color is that it is so not gender specific. Being in theatre my hair color has been nearly every shade there is, and people who didn't know me would react in those stereotypical ways to whatever my color happened to be.

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[> [> Re: Dumb Blonde -- Javoher, 11:18:25 08/16/01 Thu

The points above about the "dumb blonde" stereotype, and how it extends beyond people who are dumb, or blonde, or female, are quite valid. It's quite common in high school for girls to hide their smarts - we all know that. One of the smartest women I ever met had beautiful white-blonde hair, a gorgeous pink complexion, and a petite figure. She had guys clustered around her, for a while. She was also a mathematician by profession, going back to college for her degree in music. As soon as she opened her mouth and made it obvious, effortlessly, that she could think circles around them, she no longer had guys clustered around her.

In the guys' defense, no one really likes to make friends with someone who is obviously a lot smarter. The friendship becomes too one-sided. Now if they're just threatened by a female who can hold her own and doesn't bother to cover up her intelligence, I withdraw my defense.

If Buffy was "Cordeliaesque" (great description, Nina!) in her first high school, then acting smart would have been fatal to her popularity with boys, which is very important to her, and would have gotten her kicked out of her clique. When she reached Sunnydale High, she already felt like a sideshow freak. She had to cover up her disproportionate strength, much like Superman, and probably covered up her intelligence much the same way.

Buffy is perfectly capable of drawing conclusions based on her frame of reference and defending those conclusions. I'm thinking of "Checkpoint" in the class where she mentions Rasputin's impossibility to kill, and the professor ragging on her for her inferring that Rasputin was indeed evil and not human, and for bringing up the same thing about Prussian generals the week before. I remember thinking to myself, Buffy read the homework?!? But when it pertains to her calling, she does do the homework and thinks intelligently about her options and choices. I agree that Buffy seems to pull in knowledge by osmosis, and what she doesn't need she doesn't absorb. And she picked up a very abstract point in that episode that no one else did, including me - that it's all about power and who has it. She knew then that her power didn't mean her physical strength or her ability to heal quickly, but the whole package that is Buffy, intelligence and loving heart and all.

Perhaps Willow's unusual intelligence intimidates Buffy. Certainly the way Willow learns, by reading and thinking abstractly and playing by the rules, is rewarded by the school system more than the way Buffy learns, which is by doing and absorbing what is pertinant. That's enough to intimidate any kid. However, defending my point above, if the levels of raw intelligence weren't roughly equal they wouldn't be the friends they are.

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[> [> [> Dumb Blonde -- Brian, 13:13:27 08/18/01 Sat

AS Xander said in "The Gift" - "Smart women are so hot-"
Of course, he was an adult by the time he could vocalize that thought.

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[> SAT Scores -- Solitude1056, 12:16:03 08/15/01 Wed

Hm. I got the impression, when the SG were finding out their SAT scores, that Buffy's SATs were suspiciously high, given her disinclination to test well (or just work well within structured environment like SATs, etc). Given the circumstances, I concluded at the time that the Mayor & his gang had possibly found a way to "bump" Buffy's SAT scores up high enough that she'd take the chance & get out of town. This conclusion was further emphasize by Joyce's immediate reaction that the high scores meant Buffy wasn't boxed in to going to a local instate school, and to start encouraging Buffy to look at east coast schools (read: far away from the Hellmouth).

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[> [> Re: SAT Scores -- John Burwood, 13:05:56 08/15/01 Wed

But the mayor would have wanted Buffy out of town before Graduation - high SATs would only get her out after Graduation. We do not have SATs in the Uk, but I got the impression they were multiple choice questions, and the point of multiple choice questions is that they do not simply test memory, but the ability to think intelligently & fast to work out answers to questions on basis of what makes most sense rather than simple computer-like memory recall. Buffy was told by a teacher in S1 Ep4 that she had a first rate mind & could think on her feet - ideal for multiple choice tests, I would have thought.

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[> [> Re: SAT Scores -- John Burwood, 13:47:20 08/15/01 Wed

But surely the Mayor would want Buffy out of town before Graduation - high SATs would not get her out until after Graduation. We have no SATs in the UK, but I got the impression they were multiple-choice questions. The point about multiple choice questions is that they test ability to make fast choices intelligently rather than simply remember masses of facts. Buffy was described by Dr Gregory in S1 Ep4 as having a first rate mind & being able to think on her feet. Ideal temperament for the intelligent guesswork needed to do well in multiple choice tests, I would have thought.

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[> [> [> Re: SAT Scores -- Nina, 15:31:33 08/15/01 Wed

I don't have the script handy right now so I am not sure in which episode it takes place, but beofre she got her SAT scores, Buffy did some pratice with Giles. She was improvising answers andwas not even listening to all the choices. She said something like: "B. The answer is B, because there has been no B for awhile".

I remember when I was 16 I had to take a governement geography test ( a bit like the SAT) with multiple choices. I used to be the second best in class and as soon as we got to learn to answer to multiple choices, I just flunked the class. Never got around to understand the system. During the final exam, instead of answering with what I knew, but using statistic to know which answer to choose, I got a good score. Maybe Buffy was that lucky herself! ;)

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[> Re: Buffy: 1st annual character posting party -- JBone, 20:05:05 08/15/01 Wed

Usually when I respond to one of these character essays, I'm either responding to something that I believe to be incorrect or something that I agree with that I haven't considered before. And most of the time it involves a character that I perceive not to be fully examined and/or discussed to his/her true meaning. Buffy, as she seems to do on the show, breaks a lot of these rules.

Let's face it, Buffy is the reason I started watching in the first place. I saw a couple of those big hair, short skirt ads, and thought that I should check this new show out. I saw the original movie, and was somewhat unimpressed. But, if the new show was at least as good, I could watch it for a few episodes. Little did I know the brilliant dramatic horror that awaited me. Buffy, and the show sucked me in with little ease, and I became a happy addict. I dare to say that the part of Buffy is the best written, best directed, best stunt action performed, and best acted female drama role in the history of American television.

In the last fifty years, the best female parts have traditionally come on television, rather than the male dominated American film industry. There have been many strongly written female roles on television in the later half of the twentieth century up until today. But they are usually dependent on some man or at least for an older woman. Not that good drama can't be centered around an older woman, but to me, they don't stand up to Buffy.

I feel I'm starting to ramble with no clear outcome. I'll let the rest of you brainiacs decide if I made any kind of sense or some kind of point. Thank you for your patience.

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[> Re: Buffy: 1st annual character posting party -- Wisewoman, 17:27:29 08/16/01 Thu

Oh Nina, what a lovely thing to come back from vacation to find your Buffy character post! I think you've done an excellent job of tackling the various aspects of her character, which I have always found the most difficult one to comprehend. I tell myself that it's because Buffy is a hero and heroes are different from ordinary people, but you have made her seem much more human to me with your perspective. Congratulations on a superb job!

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[> Great Job, Nina -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 11:46:29 08/18/01 Sat

Very difficult character to do but you handled it really well. Like the jungle cat stuff.

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[> [> The word we dare not speak nowadays -- John Burwood, 01:34:37 08/19/01 Sun

Just been re-reading the whole Buffy thread of posts, and have not noticed there is a critical word missing - a word for some reason nobody ever seems to be able to use nowadays without getting embarrassed. We call her the hero, but that refers to courage or being the centre of the story. There is another word we have missed - the word is 'good' - in the simple old-fashioned moral sense. Not infallibly - as Angel told Faith in consequences, she falls down occasionally - and not in reasoned sense of trying to be moral, but in simple emotive instinct. She cannever see someone in trouble, not just from demons, but from bullies or anyone - remember how she moved to protect Sheila from Snyder bylying in School Hard, yet she rarely seems to expect gratitude, or appreciation - or karmic reward! She just does it, by instinct, without thinking. How many of us do that? And why do we shy away from using the word nowadays?

A defining 'cool' challenge -- John Burwood, 13:08:14 08/16/01 Thu

I am trying to bodge up a poster profile for Masq which will foster the illusionthat I have both a life & a soul, & I have a problem. The list asks for a coolest topic. Can anyone help this faller off the precipice of the generation gap by defining just exactly what it means to 'be cool'. Zeppo-Xander had the same problem & found it by remaining silent in face of Cordelia's taunts, but that was what I usually tried & it never seemed to work & a thread which says nothing seems rather pointless. So can anyone produce a definition? Or am I right in my current surmise that the concept is definitively indefinable?

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[> Don't you have to decide that for yourself?? -- Masq, 13:31:12 08/16/01 Thu

I think Xander discovered the real meaning of "cool" was not doing whatever everybody else considered "cool", but being himself and self-confident about it.

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[> 'Cool' is in the eye of the beholder... -- Anthony8, 13:39:38 08/16/01 Thu

...at least with respect to the poster profile question IMO. So for me, it would mean a topic that created an unusual connection between things for which there wouldn't seem at first glance to be an obvious tie. Then like a nuclear reaction, the topic would generate even more not-so-obvious connections in the ensuing discussion.

As far as 'cool' goes culturally, who knows? The term is tossed about with such casual abandon by virtually every age group (although I have never heard anyone from my grandparents' generation, 80 and older, use the term), it must mean something different to each generation. The term originates from its use in jazz from the Be-Bop era and refers to an attitude and style that is laid back and aloof--doing one's own thing without caring whether anyone else likes it or not. Miles Davis was so cool, he turned his back on the audience preferring to play directly to the other musicians rather than engage those who came to observe his 'coolness.'

With kids, throughout the years, the term seems to have drifted away from its original meaning and has been generally used to identify something synonymous with what's hip or currently 'it' in terms of popularity and fashion. 'Phat,' 'awesome,' 'gnarly,' 'rad,' 'bitchin',' 'groovy,' and 'keen' all appear to have been used at one time or another in place of cool in that context.

By the way where does the term 'bodge' come from? Never heard that one before.

A8

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[> [> Re: 'Cool' is in the eye of the beholder... -- John Burwood, 11:07:45 08/17/01 Fri

Thanks for the analyses. 'To bodge', or 'to bodge up' means 'to assemble or perform clumsily' - can have connotations, depending on context, of improvisation or ineptitude or both. Some flexibility of definition here, but not quite as much as 'cool', I think

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[> [> [> Re: 'Cool' is in the eye of the beholder... -- anom, 19:48:15 08/18/01 Sat

"'To bodge', or 'to bodge up' means 'to assemble or perform clumsily' - can have connotations, depending on context, of improvisation or ineptitude or both"

Hmm. Sounds like a classic Carrollian portmanteau word coming from "botch" & "kludge."

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[> Re: A defining 'cool' challenge -- fresne, 14:06:46 08/16/01 Thu

Well, there are bound to be many definitions. Fashionable. Hip/hep. Whatever. Problem is we use it so many ways.
"How'r you feeling?" "I'm cool."
Response when given a complete set of Buffy DVD's. "Oh, my God, this is so cool!" Like being optional somewhere in that statement.
When discussing a man/woman who one finds madly attractive. Looking carefully vague, gazing into the distance stage right. "Yeah, he/she's cool."

Whenever I try to define cool, I always come back to a class in which we read and discussed Baldassare Castiglione's Book of the Courtier /Book of the Lady. Great book. Very interesting.

Basically, a bunch of courtiers and ladies get together and decide to define the perfect gentleman/lady by way of entertainment. (Well, you know...no t.v.). Lots of humanistic dialog and discourse later, they decide that the perfect gentleman/lady must possess the quality of sprezzatura/panache/or as my professor explained it, cool like the Fonz. Not just calm in a crisis, but controlled. Not just doing things, but doing them with style. As in one example, get shot in the thigh while fighting on the battlefields in the Lowlands, sprezzatura is composing a poem about your thigh. I think it was Sydney, which given that he wrote the Defense of Poesy makes some sort of sense.

But anyway, for me cool (usage as in he/she/it is cool) is all about style. Lord Peter Whimsy is cool. Sherlock Holmes, very cool. Miles Vorkosigan can be cool when he isn't being manic depressive. Arthur Fonzerelli, of course, defines cool.

One can not try to be cool, thus paving the way to uncoolness. Instead, it must well from inside. Thus Xander is only cool when he stops trying. Was it not the coolest when he fixed the window in IWMTLY, spouting carpenter factoids, being competent, happy in his own skin.

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[> [> I salute Fresne as our own homegrown Philosopher Of Cool. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 14:32:55 08/16/01 Thu

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[> [> [> Re: I salute Fresne as our own homegrown Philosopher Of Cool. ;-) -- fresne, 09:45:50 08/17/01 Fri

I except your salutations and am proud to say that I am both homegrown and 1/3 the calories of imported Philosopher's of Cool.

Fresne - Pondering what to wear tonight and that age old dichotomy - Hot chicks are cooler than hot guys, because we can wear fewer clothes when dancing, not to menation the cool/fashion factor of carrying a fan.

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[> I'm gonna throw a rock into a hornets' nest and see what happens. :-) -- Anthony8, 15:02:03 08/16/01 Thu

With reference only to the jazz definition of cool in my above post, here's my assessment of 'cool' as it pertains to the Jossverse:

Angel--cool. Spike--not (Sorry, he's way too hot to be cool!)

Faith--cool. Buffy and Kendra--not (Too self-conscious and obedient).

Gunn--cool. Cordelia--nu, uh (those who dictate to others what is fashinoable or trend-setting are never cool)

Lindsay--cool (why do you think Angel was so threatened by him?) Lilah--nope (anyone who can put a lump of coal between her cheeks and produce a diamond is way too uptight to ever be cool.)

Drusilla--cool (but very, very scary). Darla--no. (She's too pretty and snotty).

Giles the Ripper (cool...and dangerous). Giles the Watcher--not (Too stern and stuffy).

Jenny Calendar (cool as the other side of the pillow). Joyce--negative (too sweet, too 'mom').

Oz--cool, of course. Willow--nope.

Tara--cool (unassuming self-awareness and empathy are always very cool).

That's my take. What's yours?

A8

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[> [> Re: I'm gonna throw a rock into a hornets' nest and see what happens. :-) -- d'Herblay, 21:06:40 08/16/01 Thu

Chanterelle/Lily--uncool, allows herself to be defined by others; Anne--cool.

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[> Defining Coolness As: The tune 'Step Right Up' by Tom Waits -- OnM, 21:39:08 08/16/01 Thu

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[> [> Hey OnM...here's some PG news and a video that might interest you... -- A8, 21:44:34 08/16/01 Thu

Go to, if you like:

http://www.kfog.com

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[> Ever noticed that someone trying to be cool isn't so hot? -- Marie, 04:13:24 08/17/01 Fri

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[> [> OK, this board's driving me bonkers! -- Marie, 04:17:37 08/17/01 Fri

What's going on! All day yesterday I was getting the message the forum server was not responsing, today I can't get into a single message without having to stop and reload - every sodding time!! (And I'm not even going to mention the disappearing threads...)

And now it's taking messages - but TWICE!!

Aaaargh!

M

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[> [> [> Re: OK, this board's driving me bonkers! -- Brian, 04:56:15 08/17/01 Fri

I feel your pain. The same thing is happening to me.
Very frustrating!

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[> [> [> voy.com needs some serious fixing -- Cactus Watcher, 07:29:31 08/17/01 Fri

And would someone please shoot clickXchange.com, and put it out of its misery? Every time I get shunted through there, this site comes to a screeching halt!

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[> [> [> hey Marie, did you get my email address? -- vampire hunter D, 12:42:41 08/17/01 Fri

I tried reposting it yesterday because I remember you asked for it. But that thread has totally disappeared (it's not even in the archives.

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[> [> [> [> Yes! I sent you an e-mail using your link here - didn't you get it? -- Marie, 16:04:02 08/17/01 Fri

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[> [> cool or cool not. there is no try. @>) -- anom, 20:07:27 08/19/01 Sun

Respect my authority -- spotjon, 14:32:02 08/16/01 Thu

Buried deep down in the "Buffy and God" discussion, the point was made that Joss seems to have a problem with authority, and I responded by citing a few examples of this. After which, Dedalus gave his thoughts as to why authority is such a bad thing. (Note: The preceding links probably won't work after the thread has been moved into the archives.) Dedalus summed up his thoughts with this phrase: "Rebellion pushes us farther." I'm going to spend a little time disputing the anti-authoritarian philosophy that Dedalus is proposing, hopefully in a way that makes. Here goes.

"Without rebellion, we would have no [C]onstitution. We would still think the sun revolved around the earth. We would have no ... heck, no Christianity. No Protestantism. No anything, really." - Dedalus

What authority is: Authority is when a person or group of persons possesses the right to tell other persons what to do and/or what not to do (i.e., how to behave). Parents possess authority; teachers possess authority; governments possess authority. At least they all do in my opinion. The important aspect of my definition is that certain persons and institutions actually do possess the right to command a certain type of behavior in others. Parents have the right to tell their children how to behave. Policemen possess the right to keep us from driving faster than the speed limit. Employers have the right to demand that their employees perform work as defined in their contracts. And as such, if these people have the right to demand a certain type of behavior, then those who are under their authority have the obligation to submit to their instruction.

Now, I hear Dedalus and others lauding the philosophy that says, in order to become the best you can be you must deny and rebel against authority. In his post, Dedalus cites such movies as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and the Star Wars trilogy as illustrations of his view. In those stories, the characters who rebelled and broke all the rules were the ones who finally broke free from the "The System," and had "infinite potential and took everything to a whole new level." Of course, these stories are only fiction, so while they perform an excellent work in illustrating the espoused philosophy, they cannot be used as examples of that philosophy's supposed superiority.

Before I move on to the examples given, I want to take a look at whether rebellion against authority can ever be right. Assuming, as I have above, that most authority is legitimate (e.g., parental and governmental authority), then do we ever have the right to act against that authority? If they have the right to tell us what to do, then what right do we have to argue against them? I would submit that we have have the right to rebel against authority when, and only when, that authority has overstepped its bounds. When the government demands that you cannot practice your religion, or speak publicly about your beliefs, then the government has overstepped its bounds. When a parent tells you to shoplift because you can get away with it more easily than they, then they have overstepped their bounds. When a manager demands "favors" from you, with a threat of unemployment, he has overstepped his bounds. In such cases, you are totally in your right to rebel, because that person or institution has demanded things that it has no right to demand. But, so long as they have remained within their rightful boundaries, you have no right to act against their wishes.

The examples that Dedalus cites are few and brief, but important. The first is that we would have no (American) Constitution without rebellion. While this is true, it is important to note that England overstepped her bounds in the Americas (or at least that was the rationalization by the Revolutionaries). I don't know enough about American history to say whether or not the Colonies were justified in rebelling against the British, but I assume that they were. Rebellion against unjust authorities is justifiable, right, and necessary, but that doesn't mean we are justified in denying a just authority. (Just how many "justs" can I fit into one sentence, I wonder?)

The second example is Christianity. I agree that there was a certain spirit of rebellion in early Christianity, but it was always directed against the corruption of those who sat in the places of authority, not against the authority itself. Jesus spoke out against the religious leaders of His day, not because He was against authority, but because the leaders were themselves corrupt. He had no patience for those who were hypocritical in their beliefs, no matter how holy they appeared on the outside. In fact, Jesus commanded His disciples to obey the very religious leaders He was speaking out against: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them" (Matthew 23:2-4). Jesus spoke out against the zealots of the day who wished to overthrow the Roman rulers, and even commanded His followers to pay the Roman tax ("Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to God that which is God's" - Matt. 22:21). Still later, the apostle Paul echoed Jesus' sentiments in his letter to the church in Rome, when he said, "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves" (Romans 13:1,2). I would recommend reading the entire 13th chapter of this book, which gives a good reason why a Christian needs to submit to governmental authority.

The third example is Protestantism, which of course is closely tied to Christianity (at least some of us hope so). The Protestant Reformers were speaking out against corruption in the church leadership at this time, a problem which was very pervasive. In fact, the Reformers at first had no intention of branching off into their own churches apart from the Roman church, but rather attempted to (and here's the key word) reform the church from within. It was only after the Catholic church refused to acknowledge its own corruption that the Reformers started their own denominations. I don't know that the Reformers were totally justified in everything they did in their protests, but the movement was not anti-authoritarian, at least not in the beginning.

I would ask anyone here to give an example of an unjustified break from and against authority which resulted in something better and brighter, and which did not fall under its own weight after a short time. I wouldn't bother throwing in new philosophies from the last century that are still around, since we have yet to see whether or not they will stand the test of time.

Rules were not made to be broken - they were made to be followed; but rulers were not made to be autonomous - they are still subject to judgement. We need rules if only because we have such a strong desire to disobey. Anarchy is never a justifiable position to take, in my opinion.

-spotjon

P.S. - I will be out of town for most of the weekend starting Friday, so I won't be around to reply until I'm back. Just so you don't think I'm avoiding the debate. :-)

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[> Re: Respect my authority -- voyageofbeagle, 16:42:09 08/16/01 Thu

I think the problem with your argument: "I would submit that we have have the right to rebel against authority when, and only when, that authority has overstepped its bounds." is that "overstepping bounds" is not something that can be clearly defined.

You site the American Revolution as an instance of when the authority (England) overstepped its bounds. In the eyes of the colonists, they certainly had. "No taxation without representation" was a powerful rally cry.

However, in the eyes of England, they had poured immense amounts of money and resources into making this "savage" land inhabitable, and in turn expected to reap the benefits in the form of raw materials, like timber, and a captive population that would buy English goods.

In their eyes, a relatively small segment of the population had declared, "Hey, thanks for all the help getting this all set up, now go away."

Another example you give is that parents have the right to tell their children how to behave. You mention that a parent would be over-stepping their bounds if they tried to force their child to shoplift. What if it was grayer? What if a parent was telling their 17 year old what religion they must follow? Or whom they could date? Or what college they could attend?

I don't think there can be any hard and fast guideline for rebelling against authority. Personally, I have to side with Dedalus and say "Viva la revolution!"

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[> Re: Respect my authority -- Dedalus, 16:42:17 08/16/01 Thu

Okay, I was about to launch on a dissertation here, but why not just nip it in the bud?

(And that was a well-written response by the way)

To sum up, I remember a quote that was made by one of the writers of Rebel Without a Cause (one of my favorites - he-he), in which he said a very interesting thing. The film was not so much about juvenile delinquents - as juveniles rebelling against a delinquent society.

I am so glad I recalled that. And there we go.

I use to think as you do, and was very conservative growing up, but I can't really get into that mindset anymore. Mainly because the more you live, the more you see no one really knows what they're doing. Some people give great imitations of such, but never really get it down.

The basis of your argument seems to be that those in authority have a perfect right to that authority. The basis of mine is that authority does not have a perfect right to said authority. You do bend and say it is justifiable to rebel when authority becomes corrupt or oversteps its bounds, but I would like to posit that pretty much all authority is corrupt. Cause you know, power corrupts. And this is for everyone, be he Bill "pass the cigar" Clinton or George W. "There's nothing wrong with the o-zone" Bush.

Actually, I think my main thesis is that people are pretty much idiots.

And with that in mind, I'm not advocating anarchy, though it does sound that way. That would be a mistake. I'm not sure what I'm advocating, to be honest. I just think it's a sign of our immaturity as a species at large that we need people to sit around and tell us what to do. And not just because I'm some immoral whatever that just wants to fornicate and do drugs and lie and cheat and steal. Put it this way, I want drugs legalized, but I have never done drugs nor do I have any interest in doing them. I just think it's ridiculous that there's a law about it. And, you know what? It doesn't do anything. The war on drugs. Drugs are illegal. So? Nobody cares. The people that do them, do them anyway. And those of us that steer clear of them, steer clear of them anyway. I'm generalizing, but that's not always such a bad thing.

But maybe all of this is necessary in some way. I believe in dependent origination, and how everything depends on everything else, and so maybe if there wasn't a status quo at work, the really cool people wouldn't have anything to rebel against and spurn them on. So maybe it's a symbiosis of some strange kind.

The thing is, we're on a big rock zipping around a star. We don't know where we're going, we don't know where we've been, and on top of that, we have to keep going to the bathroom. And that's pretty much the situation. I think art and myth are our only achievements of any worth whatsoever. I'm probably alone in that assessment, but there it is. Which is fine, because I'm not trying to persuade anybody of this. It's just a matter of seeing things.

I'm not sure what else there is to say. You seem to be positing some kind of belief in the "divine right of kings," which is sort of an odd thing to say in the twenty-first century, but again, there it is. Most Christians stay away from Romans 13, but if you still really believe that all authority is instituted by God, I mean, where am I gonna go with my argument?

:-)

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[> [> Re: Respect my authority -- Slayrunt, 17:34:26 08/16/01 Thu

Actually, I think my main thesis is that people are pretty much idiots. I'm probably alone in that assessment, but there it is. Which is fine, because I'm not trying to persuade anybody of this. It's just a matter of seeing things.

You are not alone. I also have come to that conclusion, but I would rephrase it to- all people are idiots, some more often then others.

I agree with your statement about legalized drugs, and like you,I don't nor want to use drugs.

About the "divine right of kings" I have to agree with spotjon. I would like to add that the kings are also to follow Gods laws though.

I would hope that everyone will agree that man is flawed regardless of your theological believes. It all comes down to this. There is a divine Creator who put us here, or there is not. If there is not and this is all some kind of universal accident what does it really matter. Darwin is right. The survival of the fittest is the law. If on the other hand, there is a divine Creator then we can choose to serve that Creator or not.

We are all slaves to something or someone. There are many things in this world we can choose to be slaves to, money, power, lust, our ego, our intellect, the rules set by man or by government, the rules set by God. The great thing about this type of slavery is that the slave gets to chose his/her master. Choose well.

The thing is, we're on a big rock zipping around a star. We don't know where we're going, we don't know where we've been, and on top of that, we have to keep going to the bathroom.

Love it!

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[> [> [> Re: Respect my authority -- Darrick, 18:10:57 08/16/01 Thu

I would take issue with some of your comments. If you believe, as I do, that there is no god of any kind, then we are not merely left with "survival of the fittest." I think you're making the mistake of assigning some political or social role to what is only a rule describing the natural process of evolution. Even that "rule", is often misquoted to imply that it is the physically strongest creatures that survive. In simple terms, fitness can only be defined in terms of the ability to survive long enough to reproduce. This can be accomplished in any number of ways. I believe there is more to life than this, your mileage may vary. As intelligent beings, we can sidestep evolution and even work against it. We often do.

You ask "what does it matter", and I would answer that it matters because we as generally rational beings assign some level of meaning to our lives and the lives of those around us. Just because there's no god, it does not mean that we have to become nihilists who believe life has no value. It has the value we as a society, and as individuals, have given it over thousands of years of development.

I