August 2001 posts
Random question: Are all demons immortal? -- Kerri, 09:43:06 08/01/01
Wed
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[> no -- vampire hunter D, 11:36:36 08/01/01 Wed
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[> It just seems like it ... -- purplegrrl, 11:44:52 08/01/01
Wed
... because they're bigger, meaner, and harder to kill.
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[> maybe if you don't kill them... -- nathan, 00:54:52 08/02/01
Thu
maybe they just last forever...or live *really* long if they don't
get killed/cursed/are left in perfect health...
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[> [> Re: maybe if you don't kill them... -- Cynthia, 04:40:44
08/02/01 Thu
Well, it not like humans have been going out of their way to study
them for the purpose of discovering their life span expectancy.
Would be rather hazardous to one's health.
Wouldn't it also depend on what dimention they are originally
from? And what they need to survive. I would assume some demons
are more hardy than others.
Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party -- mundusmundi,
15:10:18 08/01/01 Wed
The Dawn-Haunted World:
Good, Evil and the Key in the Buffyverse
The WB certainly didn't say, 'Can you add a moppet? Everyone likes
a moppet!'
-Joss Whedon, re: the casting of Michelle Trachtenberg (quoted
at E!Online, 7/16/00)
Maybe I'm not evil, but I don't think I can be good.
-Dawn Summers, Tough Love
Say your life were a television show, that the family you love
were transitory TV kin. You could wake up tomorrow morning, discover
your husband looks like a completely different person, and you
wouldn't even think to call the cops on the stranger in your house.
You could have an older brother, a basketball freak always shooting
hoops in your yard, who one day vanishes without a trace, and
no relative, friend or neighbor would ever inquire about his whereabouts.
Or a baby sibling, born in a taxicab after all sorts of wacky
hijinks, who evolves into a sickeningly precocious five-year-old
over a single summer, and nobody would find this freak of nature
odd. (Though what is the deal with his peculiar habit of glancing
off to the side every time he speaks, as if he were reading off
cue cards?)
Or, you could have a fourteen-year-old sister who isn't really
your sister, whose memories of your life together are false, as
are your own. And one day you would have to make a Sophie's Choice
and decide if she were less than real or something more, if she
were worth the world to save....
***
The image of Dawn limping and bleeding her way down the tower
at the end of The Gift vividly illustrates what Joss Whedon must
have felt like after pulling this season off. Like Dawn, the show
survived, but not without a price: other characters and storylines
got lost in the shuffle, and I detected a few more bumps than
usual on the Plot Hole Expressway. Nevertheless, the arrival of
Little Miss Summers-both the youngest and oldest of the Scoobie
Gang, "brat kid sister" on one hand, "mystical
glowy key thing" on the other-has created some nifty moral
conundrums and matured Joss's understanding of family (which,
prior to this year, always seemed a tad juvenile). What could
have been a disaster wound up being a highlight. What could have
been a cheap gimmick-the Incredible Appearing/Disappearing Family
Member, from Bewitched to Happy Days to Family Ties-has breathed
new life into Buffy the series, even as it led to the death of
Buffy herself.
Which raises a troubling question. Make no mistake, I think Dawn
has been a great addition to the show. I liked her right away
and grew only more fond of her as the season progressed. ("Not
in a creepy way," Willow would hasten to add.) But has she
been good for the Buffyverse? That is, are the SG and the world
they inhabit a better place with her in it, or has the presence
of the Key in human form caused irretrievable damage? The Key
is the link, the Knights of Byzantium believed, the metaphorical
dark matter that holds the Buffyverse together. (I'm reminded
of Carl Sagan's observation that we are all "starstuff.")
Whether that link must be severed or spared depends on how one
has come to view this complex character. Let's take a closer look,
then, at some of the essential Dawn episodes of the past year.
***
We first meet the Dawnster at the conclusion of Buffy vs. Dracula-not
the greatest episode, as has been thoroughly opined. But its tantalizing
coda, in my mind, makes up for any shortcomings. Early on, Joyce
mentions how lonely it's going to be in the house again with her
only daughter off to college, yet at the end we see this strange
girl rifling through one of Buffy's boxes. (Already a klepto,
or just unconsciously finding her bearings in her new home?) Others
have pointed out that when Buffy sees her "sister" in
her room, there is a fleeting moment of uncertainty when she asks
(actually demands), "What are you doing in here?" The
moment passes and Dawn is accepted, but on some level Buffy appears
to sense a disruption in the natural order of things.
There was a considerable risk that the viewers might come to resent
Dawn as much as Buffy does. But the next eppy, Real Me, cannily
gets us to identify with the niblet by filtering a day's events
through her perspective. We gather that she's smart ("I heard
[Giles] use the word 'newfangled' once, so he must be pretty out
of it"), witty ("I'm not going to Hogwarts"), empathic
(relating to Harmony's self-esteem issues), and basically good-natured
(her sweet crush on Xander). She is also something of a brat,
constantly bitching about Buffy and feeling overshadowed by her
sister the Slayer. In sum, she appears blessedly normal, yet something
ominous begins to creep around her and into the Buffyverse. Starting
in Real Me and carrying over through the next few episodes, Dawn
encounters a rash of mentally ill people who finger her as something
unnatural. "I know who you are. Curds 'n' Whey," one
tells her. "You don't belong here."
A few weeks ago (7/11), Wiccagrrl started a good thread about
Real Me being the entire season in miniature. In a lighthearted
way, it does play like a dry run of The Gift, with Harmony and
her minions kidnapping Dawn and tying her up as Slayer bait. However,
it's important to note that the Dawn we meet in RM is not the
same person by the time of The Gift. This "innocent"
girl, who enjoys school and seems largely oblivious to the dangers
of the Buffyverse will be by season's end a rebellious social
outcast in the midst of a hellish identity crisis.
Despite the connotations of Dawn with Little Miss Muffet, it's
more a reverse Alice in Wonderland who comes to mind. Both are
bright-eyed girls struggling to survive in hostile new environments.
But whereas Alice is a "real" person who stumbles into
a fantasy world, Dawn is a living fiction stuck in the "reality"
of the Buffyverse. Alice's trial, of course, is rendered ultimately
bogus; Dawn's sentence, on the other hand, has devastating consequences.
***
In No Place Like Home, several plotlines that had been painstakingly
set up are finally set in motion. Besides the introduction of
Glory (i.e., the Queen of Hearts, only a brain-sucker not a head-lopper)
and Joyce's encroaching illness, Buffy learns that Dawn is not
really her sister. She is, a dying monk informs her, something
else entirely:
MONK: You have to... the Key. You must protect the Key.
BUFFY: Fine. We can protect the Key together, okay, just far,
far from here.
MONK: Many more die if you don't keep it safe.
BUFFY: How? What is it?
MONK: The Key is energy. It's a portal. It opens the door...
BUFFY: The Dagon Sphere?
MONK: No. For centuries it had no form at all. My brethren, its
only keepers. Then the abomination found us. We had to hide the
Key, gave it form, molded it flesh... made it human and sent it
to you.
BUFFY: (gets it) Dawn.
At first Buffy is understandably angry and refers to Dawn as if
she were a stray pooch left on the Summers' doorstep. But the
monk persuades her that sending the Key was an act of trust, and
that protecting it requires an act of love:
MONK: Please... she's an innocent in this. She needs you.
BUFFY: She's not my sister.
MONK: She doesn't know that.
From Dawn's perspective, every moment of her fourteen years has
been real, every epoch as the Key unknown. It's a lovely metaphor:
When young, of course, each day feels like an eternity. But what's
most striking about her "memories"-playing on a swingset,
picking up seashells on a beach, riding a merry-go-round-is how
generic they are. Though the monks meant well, the harmlessly
bland past-life they created left her, in some respects, unprepared
for a harsh reality. Dawn's story is about innocence lost. She
aged a lifetime in only one year; she can never go back.
***
'Who are you,' said the Caterpillar.
Alice replied, rather shyly. 'I hardly know, Sir, just at present-
at least I know who I was when I got up this morning, but I think
I must have changed several times since then.'
-Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
Dawn vanishes for a while down the rabbit hole after NPLH, yet
the few times we see her are actually quite revealing. In Family,
jenoff notes at his/her website, Dawn allies with Buffy for the
first time, the "hair puller" standing for Tara against
her family. In Shadow, she tries to compliment Riley-"I think
you've been really good for (Buffy)"-only to unwittingly
send him over the edge. In both Triangle and Checkpoint, she (re)plays
Harriet the Spy by adding eavesdropping to her repertoire of dubious
talents. At the start of the season, we were teased into thinking
Dawn was evil or at least somehow responsible for Joyce's condition
(a fail-safe option, I've a hunch, in case the actress, the character
or the chemistry didn't pan out). Now it's Dawn with whom we are
meant to empathize. As the last of the SG to learn the truth about
herself, she is pushed increasingly further into isolation.
When Dawn finally discovers her true identity in Blood Ties, nothing
in the Buffyverse is ever really the same. The SG's awkward reactions
(e.g., Xander tickling her half-disbelievingly, as if she were
the Pillsbury Dough Girl), Dawn's mounting suspicions, and the
traumatic moment where she cuts herself with a knife are all wholly
credible. Moreover, the burning of her diaries-her phony memories-drives
home the point that although she may not be "real,"
her feelings are. It's touching and painful to see her thinking
she's worthless (even if it's prompted by a hoary device, the
Misunderstood Overheard Conversation Scene), when she couldn't
be more special.
Blood Ties is also crucial for launching the Dawn/Spike relationship,
one of those happy accidents of actors' chemistry and superbly
written characterization. They share a priceless scene after the
former flees Buffy's birthday party and stumbles on the latter
loitering in the front yard:
DAWN: Jeez! Lurk much?
SPIKE: Wasn't lurking. I was standing about. It's a whole different
vibe.
DAWN: What is- (Folds her arms and smirks) Are you giving Buffy
a birthday present? Oh my god. Weird. And chocolates? Lame. And
the box is all bent and you know she'd never touch anything from
you anyway.
It's easy to forget how unimpressive Spike originally was in her
eyes. Back in Checkpoint, she expresses revulsion at being couped
up in his lair (or maybe just the fact that she has to watch Passions).
Here, though, the pair realize that they share at least one favorite
pastime.
DAWN: I'm breaking into the magic shop. To steal things.
SPIKE: Magic shop, eh? (looks over his shoulder) All number of
beasties between here and there. Bet they'd really go for a little
red riding hood like you. Bet that wouldn't sit too well with
big sister.
DAWN: (uncertain) I can take care of myself. (pause) You wanna
come steal some stuff?
SPIKE: Yeah, all right.
Some have objected that Dawn's crush on Xander got short shrifted.
But the switch to Spike, from a "good boy" to a "bad
boy," makes perfect sense in psychological terms of the character.
Aquitaine mentioned in her excellent Spike essay that it just
seems natural these two outsiders would gravitate toward one another.
"They are equals in freakdom," she wrote. "They
can talk to each other, forgive each other, care for each other"
(7/18). They have an unforced connection that carries over into
Crush, where the "little bit," feeling out-of-sorts
at home, seeks asylum with the same vampire who initially repulsed
her. "I like how you talk to me," she tells him, "like
I can understand things." She also shares the bleached-blonde
one's gifts of perception, as when she clues Buffy of his infatuation.
This leads to a terse debate over the nature of morality. "Angel's
different. He has a soul," Buffy says. "Spike has a
chip," Dawn retorts. "Same dif."
Does Dawn have a soul? This question was brought up in a fairly
recent thread (vampire hunter D's "fate of the key,"
7/11) with convincing arguments on both sides. Marie reasoned:
"They were monks, after all, presumably with some sort of
religion and god (by that I mean not necessarily our God - whoever
or whatever He may be to any of us), so above all they would think
of giving their new little human not only physical protection
(Buffy), but afterlife protection." But Greta countered with
an equally compelling point: "(M)aybe the question is COULD
they give her a soul?....we don't know if it's possible to create
a soul out of thin air or even out of pure energy."
Rufus took a different tack: "Does it matter if she has a
soul? The soul as Joss has defined it sure is no guarantee of
good behavior...To me it matters little how she started and if
she has a soul, her actions are what counts."
Her actions prompt a question of my own: Is Dawn an atheist? I
don't mean that critically. It'd be a fascinating irony if someone
made via elaborate spiritual/mystical means doesn't believe in
a Creator. Starting with Crush, I began to entertain the idea
that she has become Joss's mouthpiece. This struck me again a
couple eps later, in The Body.
For my money, the two best scenes in The Body both involve kid
sis. The first, of course, is the gut-wrenching sequence in school
that begins with Dawn in tears at being called a "freak"
by a bully and ends with her having a breakdown over Buffy's bad
news. The second is the climactic moment in the morgue. Dawn has
been determined to see Joyce, and now that she does she still
can't accept that her mother is dead:
DAWN: Is she cold?
BUFFY: It's not her. It's not her. She's gone.
DAWN: Where'd she go?
Good question. And not only Dawn's, I suspect, but Joss's as well.
***
Although no real answers are found in the follow-up, Forever,
Dawn's bonds with Buffy and Spike become stronger than ever. It's
interesting to see the Summers sisters' reactions to the tragedy:
while the older keeps a stiff upper lip, the younger is pro-active.
Feeling like "negative space" (the metaphor from the
art-class scene in The Body), she wants her mother back at any
cost, even if it means another five-finger discount on Giles's
spell books and a fateful meeting with the uber-demon, Doc. Her
resolve holds until the climax, when she and Buffy seamlessly
trade places. Hearing zombie-Joyce's knock at the door reduces
Buffy to a childlike state ("Mommy?" she asks hopefully),
while Dawn becomes the strong one, tearing the photo and stopping
the spell.
Besides sharing an adventure with Spike, thereby deepening the
trust between them, Forever is also noteworthy for how Dawn's
obsession with raising Joyce inadvertently causes the first rift
we've seen between Willow and Tara pre-Tough Love. Tara insists
that resurrection has dark consequences. Willow, however, is obviously
more open to the subject and helps Dawn by covertly directing
her toward a spellbook without Tara's knowledge. Dawn can be a
divisive influence in the Buffyverse. The other characters are
always reacting to her, and their reactions have led them to reveal
themselves in surprising ways, at their best and worst.
***
I'm going to refrain from delving into The Gift, as the particulars
of that episode-the blood debate, the folding of the clothes,
the look between Dawn and Spike-have been hashed out quite a bit
already (though feel free to discuss them if anyone likes). Instead,
I will close by submitting that Dawn, for good or ill, has become
the Buffyverse's impetus for change.
Contact with the Key spurred Riley's emotional tailspin, precipitated
Willow's fascination with the dark(er) arts, forced Giles to realize
the evil he will do for a noble cause. By the same token, Xander
matured before our eyes, Spike showed reservoirs of virtue that
seemed to astonish even himself, and Tara made a great sacrifice,
topped only by Buffy's ultimate love-offering. Buffy's gift to
Dawn was momentous, but we shouldn't undervalue the gift Dawn
gave her in return: a sister to love, a person to care about just
as she was becoming a terminatrix, hard and unfeeling. "Dawn
allowed Buffy to reconnect with humanity and the people she saves,"
Kerri wrote in a 7/22 post. "Because of Dawn, Buffy realized
why being the slayer was so important. She realized that people
are good and worth saving."
As Glory might say, it depends how you look at it. But I believe
that Dawn can be great. She can be anything she wants to be. She's
got the goods, she has the right genes. She is, after all, Buffystuff.
***
--mm
8/1/01
All script dialogue adapted from my tapes and/or (natch) Psyche's
site.
All quotes, unless stated otherwise, from ATPoBtVS. Many thanks
to my fellow posters for their amazing insights, and for deepening
my appreciation of an already great show.
All errors are mine. (Sinus headache...*throbbing*...must lie
down now. :)
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[> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party --
dan, 15:39:37 08/01/01 Wed
BIG congratulations on this posting: extremely well done, and
a really enjoyable essay!
I'd like to just add that Dawn has been (and will continue to
be) a catalyst for change in the Buffyverse on a *variety* of
levels. You've pointed out that she's caused characters to change,
and precipitated events. So, okay, she's caused emotional change,
and physical/historical change. But there's a third aspect to
changes that she's caused, and that's the changes of intellect/spirit/perception.
I submit that Dawn has begun an intense reexamination on the part
of the Scooby Gang (and BtVS viewers) of basic ideas that may
have held since the beginning of the show. What's struck me about
this season is that more than ever before, everything we already
knew was... well, not wrong, but *outdated*. Too simplistic.
For example, the existence of Dawn (and subsequent comments she
has made) have prompted much thinking on what souls are (and are
they necessary in order to be good), the ideas of nature/temperament/virtue/sin,
the meaning of family bonds, etc. Dawn is going to act as the
primary "ambassador" of Spike to the scoobies now that
Buffy's dead, and force them to truly realize that Spike has changed.
She's also already caused them to question the nature of reality
and worth.
WILLOW: I can't believe that Dawn's not real!
TARA: No, she is real. She's just new.
Dawn also forced a change to the ethics and sophistication of
the scoobies. I was pondering why going with the utilitarian answer
(and killing Angel) for "Becoming" was okay, but killing
Dawn was not. It hit me that the reason that killing Dawn was
so unacceptable was because killing Dawn meant buying into a false
dichotomy. Very rarely do we face *true* Sophie's Choices in our
lives, where we face two and only two equally untenable alternatives.
Buffy's maturing and apotheosis in handling this dilemma came
from the moment where she stepped back from the problem, thought
outside the terms in which her dilemma had been delineated, and
then understanding and acting upon the third option she had.
Dawn is going to continue to change the Buffyverse, and continue
to push the scoobies towards ever richer understandings of the
world around them. i'm betting this is why buffy turns out to
be the last slayer for several hundred years.
-dan
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[> [> Re: Ambassador Dawn -- mundusmundi, 05:33:14 08/02/01
Thu
I really like your point here:
I submit that Dawn has begun an intense reexamination on the part
of the Scooby Gang (and BtVS viewers) of basic ideas that may
have held since the beginning of the show. What's struck me about
this season is that more than ever before, everything we already
knew was... well, not wrong, but *outdated*. Too simplistic.
I regularly have debates with a colleague over this. He likes
the show but has been bothered by the changes of this past season.
Most TV series, IMO, are annoyingly static. I got tired of Fleischman
on Northern Exposure end every episode by having a newfound respect
for his town, only to start the very next episode by hating the
damn town again! I've always liked how the characters on Buffy
remember things (except the Dagon Sphere, grrr). Memory is the
key to change. Maybe that's why Dawn seemed so naive (for lack
of a better word) in Real Me, because her memories weren't real.
It wasn't until she started living --started building her own
memories -- that she began to grow. (Miracle if this makes sense.
I'm still sleepy-boy. :)
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[> [> [> Re: Ambassador Dawn -- dan, 07:38:50 08/02/01
Thu
Memory is the key to change. Maybe that's why Dawn seemed so naive
(for lack of a better word) in Real Me, because her memories weren't
real. It wasn't until she started living --started building her
own memories -- that she began to grow.
That naivete is the reason that Dawn has forced a rereckoning
on the part of the Scoobies about metaphysics and ethics, etc.
She was new enough to the the system that she asked questions
and didn't accept everything as set in stone.
-dan
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[> [> [> Re: Ambassador Dawn -- vampire hunter D, 12:46:53
08/02/01 Thu
What do you need a miracle for? It made perfect sense to me.
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[> Dawn-Haunted World -- Cactus Watcher, 16:27:58 08/01/01
Wed
I enjoyed your idea that Dawn is a catalyst for the rift between
Willow and Tara. The seeds seem to have been there before. Tara
was frequently dismayed at how shabbily Willow was treating Anya.
We have discussed the differences between Willow and Tara's approach
to magic before. Dawn has much of Willow's early curiosity about
magic. How much Dawn should learn at this stage is a major point
of contention.
Another point you brought up is that from the very beginning Dawn
has been very human, not just getting on Buffy's nerves, but doing
a very normal amount of risky behavior typical of young teens.
It bothers me that Glory insisted that the Key had to be pure.
Clearly, Dawn with her faults isn't pure. But she's a normal acting
human even if she isn't just human.
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[> [> Re: Dawn-Haunted World -- LadyStarlight, 20:04:00
08/01/01 Wed
It bothers me that Glory insisted that the Key had to be pure.
Clearly, Dawn with her faults isn't pure.
Well, there's pure and then there's PURE. Pure as in the sexual
sense, virginal; or pure as in the holy sense. Also, Dawn's faults
aren't major-league ones. Which would let Spike out on all counts!
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[> [> [> Good point. I'm thinkin' too narrowly. -- Cactus
Watcher, 21:02:25 08/01/01 Wed
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[> Re: Sinus headache...*throbbing*...must lie down now. :)
-- OnM, 21:32:04 08/01/01 Wed
Great post! Harder than it looks to do these, isn't it? (~grins~)
Your observation about Dawn possibly being/becoming Joss's 'mouthpiece'
is interesting, and may indeed
have some relevancy. I tend to think that if the show continues
it's success in the next two seasons, that
Dawn will increasingly become more and more of a focal point of
the show, which I have no problem with.
We have already seen (and I commented on several months ago) that
Buffy has become Joyce, and thus
Dawn will become Buffy. This also fits with Joss's comment that
S6 will be about 'growing up, already'.
No other deep and pithy comments tonight, it's been a busy day
for me and I'm getting tiredish, but I think
that on an acting level, Trachtenberg may very well end up with
doing what Marsters has done, which is to
virtually steal every scene that s/he is in. It continues to impress
me just how talented and professional
someone can be for such a tender age.
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[> [> Re: feelin' better :) -- mundusmundi, 05:50:47 08/02/01
Thu
It's hot, it's sticky, and the evil allergens (how's that for
a Big Bad?) are out in force! But reading all the kind words here
is bucking me up. Anyway, your comments:
We have already seen (and I commented on several months ago) that
Buffy has become Joyce, and thus
Dawn will become Buffy.
It is amazing how Buffy became Joyce -- as Hemingway would say,
"gradually and then suddenly." I was really struck by
a line that got cut from The Gift where she explains that Dawn
is both her daughter and her sister (which weirdly resembles a
line from Chinatown). And of course Joss has hinted that Dawn
will become even more the "bitty Buffy." But do we really
want her to be? I don't have a problem with her getting more screen
time, either. My question is whether she should become another
Slayer or find her own path. I leave it to the floor....
I think that on an acting level, Trachtenberg may very well end
up with doing what Marsters has done, which is to
virtually steal every scene that s/he is in. It continues to impress
me just how talented and professional
someone can be for such a tender age.
She certainly makes it easier on the writers, who know they don't
have to write her any big speeches, she can communicate so much
feeling w/out words. (A friend recently said she has the most
expressive eyebrows this side of Jack Nicholson.) I'll bet the
farm that one day she is going to be a very big star.
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[> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party --
Tanker, 23:28:52 08/01/01 Wed
I mentioned on BAPS that I don't post here much because y'all
intimidate me. Rufus asked why. This is why. :-) I couldn't have
written something that good in a million years. Great job.
Oh, and the PTC can go soak their heads. "Lowbrow entertainment"
my foot.
-- Mike Zeares
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[> [> Oh good you have come to talk to us............ --
Rufus, 23:34:12 08/01/01 Wed
Perfection is something that doesn't exist. I have read your posts
and have enjoyed them stick around you may think of something
none of us has. Just start posting and we will answer. You could
become addicted...or worse a CDCW.....:):):)
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[> [> You'd be amazed what you can start to do after you've
hung out at this place for awhile... -- OnM, 06:11:17 08/02/01
Thu
You can gain insights and abilities that you really didn't think
you had. The best way to get smarter is to hang out with other
smart people, and there's a whole great big bunch 'o them here.
Why don't you take up one of the remaining characters and do a
post for us? One of the villians, say? Pick someone who resonates
for you as a character and go for it.
'Fortune favors the brave...'
;)
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[> [> Oh Mike, getting over that fear was a good day for
me! Stick around! -- Liquidram, 22:13:08 08/02/01 Thu
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[> Great post..........The Key is the link......:):):) -- Rufus,
23:47:46 08/01/01 Wed
The key is the link...to what? And is it only the link to one
thing? I just love the idea of neutral energy being moulded, pressed
into human form. In this human form the Key has forged a new link.....that
to humanity. The key as Dawn is now aware, where there was only
the light of energy now comes the light that caused so much love
in Buffy. To watch a young girl go from writing about her sister
in a diary to finding out she is only six months old in human
form has to be a real mind twister. I look at what the monks did
as moulding not only a form but making it sentient, able to feel.
Dawn is able to interact with the very humans that would be destroyed
by her use as the key. Dawn is new, in a sense a baby, one that
has to grow into her emotions. She has had to learn in six months
what took a normal child fourteen years. The monks helped her
along by giving her and everyone around her memories of a life
never lived. As soon as Buffy found out Dawn wasn't real she went
from anger....to understanding and compassion for her unreal sister.
Those feelings and the relationship that grew in real time made
Buffy unable to see Dawn as anything but part of her. A part she
wanted to live and remain her sister forever. Dawn went from pest
to precious. Joyce accepted her and told Buffy to "love Dawn
like I love you" and for Buffy (who has a soul full of love)
it wasn't hard. My favorite scene was when Dawn realizing that
the world could end didn't miss a beat and started to run to prevent
the end of the world. Dawn went from the unreal sister to the
"real me" in that moment. Dawn learned from her sister,
and the memories she had of her mother, Joyce, to see the world
she could for the first time interact with as precious. The Key
is the Link, the link to Buffys heart.
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[> [> Re: Great post from you too -- Mike, 04:03:21 08/02/01
Thu
this kind of answers that BIG BIG question of WHY the Monks made
the Key human.
They themselves wanted to harness the power of the key for good.
So they chose to place the key in human form, which on it's own
gives it that possibility (of either being extremely good, or
I guess also extremely bad, or a mixture both)..
But by placing the Key with Buffy and her family and Scoobs, the
Monks ensured that the Key would be:
A) protected
B) guided (and so affected) by the Slayer who is innately good
(I just KNOW someone's gonna disagree with that!)
C) surrounded (and so affected) by the Slayers family and Scoobs
who support Buffy's fight against vil and provide a tighly knit
environment of good and love
see, it's ALL GOOD! Just like the Key now. I think. er... :)
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[> [> Re: The Key is the link -- mundusmundi, 06:04:28 08/02/01
Thu
In this human form the Key has forged a new link.....that to humanity.
You hit on something I was trying to say, and which ties into
something dan put in his post above: that the Key seems to opening
up all the characters in all sorts of interesting ways, expanding
on Joss's recurring themes while taking them in new directions.
Should be interesting to see what other doors are opened this
season.
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[> [> [> Re: The Key is the link -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
11:05:13 08/02/01 Thu
Great original post and discussion, everyone!
Perhaps, given the vast changes in the characters in this season
and the proposed theme of the next, the Key can be seen as the
link between adolescence and adulthood. The Scoobies are revealing
themselves more because they are having to deal with things that
change their worldview, just as they changed the worldview of
their parents in the first four seasons.
Hang on, this doesn't sound very convincing...they had to deal
with some pretty incredible stuff in the past as well.
However, Dawn is very different. In the first season, when they
discovered the existence of vampires, their opinions were still
fairly maleable. Besides, vampires were everywhere in Sunnydale
(the fact that others were so oblivious was meant to represent
the feeling that they didn't understand more than anything else
- please don't pick me up on that, it's a whole 'nother post).
At the beginning of season 5, though, they are secure in their
ideas (complacent?) - this is a bad thing to be in the Jossverse.
So then Dawn comes along and they discover that there is something
fundamentally wrong in the centre of their understanding of the
world around them. It is much harder to cope with this from a
position of relative comfort than from the places the characters
were all at in WTTH (they were all pretty unhappy with themselves).
As a result of this, their reactions now say more about their
characters and also about how happy they are (Riley, Willow and
Giles came off the worst - they were the least content at the
beginning of the season).
Oh, dear...digression much? Anyway, I agree that the Key is opening
up the characters a bit more.
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[> [> [> [> I'm not sure... -- Kerri, 11:39:07 08/02/01
Thu
"At the beginning of season 5, though, they are secure in
their ideas "
I don't know. Buffy didn't seem to secure with who she was. She
wanted to learn more. She was beginning a journey to rediscover
herself. Dawn fit into that discovery perfectly.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure... -- Rufus, 13:01:04
08/02/01 Thu
Look at both characters at the beginning of season five. Buffy
had become insecure about the control of her powers and her confidence
took a dive when that vamp got her in FFL. Dawn started the season
hiding behind everyone, frightened of everything. As the season
goes on both characters find a new confidence. The way Dawn spoke
to Glory in the last episodes is far different than the girl we
first met. Both characters were on a journey of a sort, Buffy
on her hero's journey, and Dawn a catalyst that helped move her
on to her next stage of the hero's journey. Both learned that
they could be more than they thought earlier in the season. Buffy
isn't just a killer as she feared, and Dawn became the "Real
Me" realizing her potential as a human.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure... -- Kerri,
13:24:07 08/02/01 Thu
It was interesting to watch the parallel journeys of Buffy and
Dawn. Both on a search for their identity. The two change and
cause change in their sister as well. They help the other to grow.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes - Buffy would not
have been able to develop as she has without Dawn -- Lurker Becoming
Restless, 14:20:54 08/02/01 Thu
And just to clarify, I don't mean that the scoobies were becoming
self-satisfied and lazy - just that things had plateaued a little.
And the period I'm talking about is from the end of Restless to
when Dawn arrives: about halfway through BvsD. This means up until
she starts looking into the past - not when she does so.
Perhaps it makes more sense if you know that I buy into the whole
'the monks made Dracula' thing and that I take his appearance
to be the first major non-Dream effort to unsettle a previously
safe Buffy.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes - Buffy
would not have been able to develop as she has without Dawn --
mundusmundi, 16:32:10 08/02/01 Thu
Perhaps it makes more sense if you know that I buy into the whole
'the monks made Dracula' thing and that I take his appearance
to be the first major non-Dream effort to unsettle a previously
safe Buffy.
Guess that's why I wish the monks had been Rumanian. Would've
added some weight to that idea, which I like. I also wish there'd
been an episode last season that introduced the monks to Buffy
-- had her save the life of one of them or something. That also
would've resonated in a big way once she found out who was behind
the mystical care package she received this year.
That said, and tying into a thread I believe d'Herblay started
a few days ago, what does everyone think of the possibility that
the SG's newly added "memories" of Dawn spurred some
of their changes this season? Does Dawn even really factor into
those memories, or was she always in the background of past events?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dawn--dragon
of Eden -- d'Herblay, 20:54:42 08/02/01 Thu
(Ok, I was looking for the Buffy in the Garden of Eden posts that
I half remember from the period just before I delurked so I could
justify using this subject line--I really just wanted to keep
the Sagan theme going--and I came across [on page five, now] Dedalus's
post "Oil is the lifeblood of your car!" When I get
to the line: "I just see Dawn as a Chevrolet Cavalier,"
I start laughing so hard my laptop shakes. So I'm a little oxygen-deprived
at the moment.)
When I started the "Where was Dawn?" thread, I was just
looking for a little harmless fun. But then I started wondering,
how could the presence of Dawn have not affected the events of
Buffy's life prior to "Real Me." I am struck by mundusmundi's
(mundimundi?) observation that the monk-implanted memories were
generic, and obviously no memory could have conflicted with the
reality we know--no one would remember Dawn doing anything that
got Buffy killed back in 1999, for example.
(If the animated series includes Dawn, as I think it will, then
all this is out the window, and memories exist of Dawn playing
a significant role in pre-Glory Sunnydale. Of course, I may later
decide that the animated series isn't canonical.)
I think that Xander remembered Dawn having a crush on him for
long before the events of "Real Me." I think this may
have engendered some of his new-found self-confidence. At the
end of S4, he thought that his two best friends didn't respect
him, and that his relationship with his girlfriend was going nowhere.
The unconditional admiration of even a thirteen-year-old girl
must have provided him with some solace. Plus, he seemed really
shaken in "Crush," when he finds out that Dawn's admiration
has transferred to Spike. "It's always been me. Big funny
Xander. And then she just suddenly decides I'm not the cool one
anymore? Why is that okay?" (From the shooting script.)
I was planning to play with Frank Sulloway's theory that birth-order
determines aspects of a personality, that first-borns are somehow
different from only-childs. Wisewoman beat me to it, and she's
right, there's not much there.
But I rented "The Witch"/"Never Kill a Boy . .
. " the other night, and in watching the early interactions
between Joyce and Buffy, I couldn't help but wonder: it might
be easy for Joyce to pack up her life and move to Sunnydale entirely
to support Buffy, but would she have moved a ten-year-old girl
away from her school and her friends and her father just because
her older daughter had gotten into trouble? If Dawn had really
existed, Buffy might never have gone to Sunnydale and instead
been put in military school. (She would have done well there,
except for that distrust of authority thing.)
In related speculation, does Dawn harbor any resentment towards
Buffy for being forced to leave her friends in L.A.? Would she
still hold a grudge because of a slight that never actually happened?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Dawn--dragon of Eden -- Rufus, 00:30:11 08/03/01 Fri
If you believe the basis of the grudge is real...why not? But
Dawn would have been about nine years old and with the personality
I could see in the earlier eps. like "Real Me" she would
have been more focused on her mother, so where mom goes so does
Dawn.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Where was Dawn Redux? -- mm (i.e., mundusmundi), 06:36:09 08/03/01
Fri
When I started the "Where was Dawn?" thread, I was just
looking for a little harmless fun. But then I started wondering,
how could the presence of Dawn have not affected the events of
Buffy's life prior to "Real Me." I am struck by mundusmundi's
(mundimundi?) observation that the monk-implanted memories were
generic, and obviously no memory could have conflicted with the
reality we know--no one would remember Dawn doing anything that
got Buffy killed back in 1999, for example.
I was glad when you started that thread, since I was already head-long
into researching my Dawn post and was puzzling over how (theoretically)
she could affect the SG without altering their memories in such
a way that it affected past events. Assuming the monks wouldn't
want to screw with history too much, perhaps they create a kind
of "cloak" around Dawn, so that she was there but not
able to influence the scheme of things.
On the other hand, I think your point on Xander is right on. That
he was still a "butt-monkey" in BvD and started maturing
(it seems) in Real Me makes it plausible that his memories of
Dawn gave him an ego boost (as if making hot sweaty monkey love
with Anya weren't enough). Still, it makes me wonder: would a
more confident Xander have altered any events in B4 than the confidence-shaken
one we already know?
Sorry, just saw the new Planet of the Apes the other day, and
my brain's still buzzing from the ending.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Memories of Dawn -- Kerri, 07:00:10 08/03/01 Fri
"I was glad when you started that thread, since I was already
head-long into researching my Dawn post and was puzzling over
how (theoretically) she could affect the SG without altering their
memories in such a way that it affected past events. "
Ok-I've been thinking about this a bit for a while. Events seem
like something the monks could deal with not changing.
But how about the effect Dawn would have on people. The people
we know shape who we are. Having a little sister, it seems, would
have changed who Buffy was. Dawn was a huge part of Buffy's life
and perhaps had the memories been real she would have developed
differently. So the changes that were induced by Dawn within other
people could have begun to take place after she was created.
From "The Real Me":
RILEY: Uh-uh. Back to what I was saying before we were rudely
attacked by nothing. You seem really tense.
BUFFY: (shrugs) Yeah, there's a new vampire gang in town.
RILEY: I mean domestically tense. You're on Dawn's case a lot.
BUFFY: I guess. It's just... (sighs) I don't know, it ... I know
it's always been this way. She's the baby. But for some reason
lately, it's just really getting to me. She's *always* around.
RILEY: Well, yeah. You're like her idol, Buffy.
Buffy is bothered by having this little sister around. She knows
becasue of the memories that it has always been this way. But
somehow it feels different.
Dawn becomes more real to the scoobies, to Buffy, and to the audience
as she begins to develope as a character. As the season progresses
Dawn begins to bond with Buffy, to become more her sister, because
she is real now, she does things and their results are not just
remembered but felt.
I'm not sure about everyone else but in the beginning of the season
I didn't like Dawn that much. She was ok but she was just the
bratty kid sister. I started to like her a bit more when Joyce
got sick-she grew and the dynamic between her and Buffy was more
loving, more interesting. Because Dawn grew and changed, Buffy
grew and changed, making Dawn real since she had affected someone's
life. At this point I kind of wanted the scoobies to regain their
original memories. It seemed wrong of the monks to screw with
people's minds.
But as the season went on my oppinion started to change. After
Dawn found out she was the key she became one of my favorite characters.
Then in "Forever" Buffy and Dawn truely become sisters.
When Buffy breaks down in Dawn's arms that makes them really become
sisters. From that point on Buffy and Dawn's relationship changes;
Dawn is everything for Buffy. It's hard for the audience not to
love Dawn at this point.
In "The Gift" Dawn was willing to jump to save everyone.
She had changed and grown(to be very much like Buffy I might add).
She was real.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Memories of Dawn -- Tanker, 12:16:23 08/03/01 Fri
"It's hard for the audience not to love Dawn at this point."
The sheer number of people who were mad at Dawn's continued existance
would seem to argue otherwise.
Sorry, I've just read yet another long essay on the newsgroup
on why "The Gift" was crap, and the whole Dawn story
was crap, blah blah blah. And I try to construct a well-reasoned
argument, which I can't do to save my life, and end up using the
f-word within two posts. So I'm feeling just a bit frustrated.
Thank Joss for this board.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Reason............ -- Rufus, 15:55:50 08/03/01 Fri
On a NG......ha ha ha ha......reason is about as useful as a candle
in a forest fire. I know many people thought that The Gift was
crap and they are welcome to their opinion. I would like to see
them do better. It comes down to personal preferences and the
ones that don't like what they see are welcome to state an opinion
or even switch channels. I loved The Gift. Nothing will change
that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Defining Moment -- Rattletrap, 12:26:44 08/03/01 Fri
Good point Kerri,
Like you I didn't particularly care for Dawn early on, but she
grew on me pretty quickly (I can't help but wondering if that
was by the writers' design.)
For me, one of the defining moments in her growth seems to be
in "Listening to Fear," when the Queller demon falls
off the ceiling on top of Joyce. Rather than cowering or running
away, Dawn grabs a coat rack, puts her head down, and charges
the demon. She drives him out of the room before she screams for
help.
This seems to foreshadow the growing up that occurs through the
rest of S5. I would love to see more of _that_ Dawn for next year.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Memories of Dawn -- 2m's (mundusmundi), 13:34:13 08/03/01
Fri
But how about the effect Dawn would have on people. The people
we know shape who we are.
So true. To use the Superstar comparison again -- apologies if
this overlaps with anything written previously -- here's how I
see it:
*Jonathan's spell was used to make him the center of attention,
and an overt influence on the Buffyverse. Essentially, he was
playing god, and that's why the spell eventually broke down.
*In contrast, the monks' spell (and here we have men working for
God, it would seem), put Dawn on the periphery of Memory. I think
of it as a kind of "Where's Waldo" spell, in which Dawn
is there but not there. It's interesting that all her memories
seem "safe." There's nothing about her active involvement
in anything consequential with the SG. She knows Buffy's the Slayer,
but exactly what that means doesn't seem to register until the
end of Real Me and beyond. She remembers Buffy crying about Angel,
but that's about the extent of it. So I agree completely with
your conclusion....
...the changes that were induced by Dawn within other people could
have begun to take place after she was created.
Again, Xander. I buy LBR's theory that the "Key-crush"
may have restored some of his self-esteem. Maybe he has memories
of babysitting Dawn back in B4, and that relationship, and the
sense of responsibility he acquired from it, helped him along.
One of the funniest scenes of this past year was in Blood Ties,
when he brags to Giles about someone powerful and mystical like
Dawn taking a shine to him (actually, the funny part was Giles
rolling his eyes and walking away in disgust).
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> My theory! (I don't have many good ones, so I have
to hold on tight to the ones I do.) :) -- d'Herblay, 13:39:55
08/03/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Oops! 'Twas D'Herblay's theory all (and you've
always got good'uns. I read your stuff. :) -- mm, 13:49:03 08/03/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Aah! Ego-boo! -- d'Herblay, 13:50:46 08/03/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Dawn and Superstar........ -- Rufus, 16:20:10 08/03/01
Fri
Look at the motives for both the spell in Superstar and the creation
of Dawn. In Superstar you have a young man unfamiliar with magic
doing a spell that was for his own benefit, it backfired. In regards
to Dawn you have the Monks who are real pro's capable of bending
reality. They have devoted their life to finding a way to harness
the energy for the forces of light. That is hardly selfish as
they were working so save humanity not to do a selfish glamour
spell for themselves. The Monks believed so much in their work
that they were willing to die to finish what they had started
so long ago. I have always said how smart the monks were to mould
the key into human form. The transformation of Dawn into human
form changed the neutral key into a person who can understand
consequences. Both Buffy and Dawn were considered tools for the
use of others, with no choice of their own. Buffy became independant
of the Council and Dawn made the choice to jump into the portal
only to be stopped by her sister. This storyline has shown us
just how powerful love can be. May sound simple to some but love
is what motivated all the major choices this season. Love is what
brought Buffy to her gift and choice to sacrifice herself for
the world and her sister. Love is what Buffy thought she had lost
only to find out that it is what fills her soul. The act of slaying
may be dark but Buffy kills to preserve what she loves. Would
she have found this out if Dawn had never been in her life?
In Superstar the spell was created out of self love, the selfish
motives of one. The spell didn't work because the person doing
it was playing with forces he didn't understand. When the spell
ended people resented Jonathon because they had been used. In
the case of Dawn, Buffy resented her sister until she found out
the reason for her being. Dawn is a force of light, innocent,
full of love. Her actions in The Gift proved that the Monks sure
knew what they were doing.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Baseline reality regarding Dawn and Superstar........
-- Cleanthes, 08:04:10 08/04/01 Sat
In `The Replacement`, Willow easily restores the united Xander
because that reality more closely matches the way things are supposed
to be.
This bolsters your point, Rufus, about the differences between
the spell "creating" Dawn and the situation in `Superstar`.
The Superstar situation built a house of cards far from whatever
baseline "true" überPlatonic reality there is underlying
the dimensions.
Meanwhile, how can we say that the Key is *supposed* to be formless
energy? Is the key-as-formless-energy closer to this überPlatonic
reality underlying the various dimensions? I think not.
The Stoics believed that the universe had a swerve to it. [Umberto
Eco has written much about this in modern philosophy; I finished
his "Kant and the Platypus" over vacation, sorry for
the unnecessary digression, but maybe I'm suffering from the "just
read about this" syndrome.] This is sometimes referred to
as the tonos in the telos, or the tension that pulls events toward
the easiest channel in the flow of events.
Jonathon's spell pulled the tonos WAY off the mark(s) while the
monk's spell may even have moved the tonos CLOSER to the mark(s).
As a bit of formless energy, the key needed a sect of monks and
who knows what else to protect it. (and I like to think, for fun,
that the "holy grail" was actually the key -- but then,
that's just me because I love the medieval grail tales and I'm
a fan of Monty Python,too) Well, anyway, while the key didn't
have to be Dawn, it may well be that the Key-as-Dawn is now the
baseline reality.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Baseline reality regarding Dawn and
Superstar........ -- mundusmundi, 11:07:45 08/04/01 Sat
Jonathon's spell pulled the tonos WAY off the mark(s) while the
monk's spell may even have moved the tonos CLOSER to the mark(s).
Neat idea. Only semi-related to the subject, but does anyone know
what the predominant faith in Czechslovakia is -- Catholic, Eastern
Orthodox, or other? I'm idly wondering how the monks' spirituality
might fit into their philosophy regarding the Key, or if it's
related at all.
(and I like to think, for fun, that the "holy grail"
was actually the key -- but then, that's just me because I love
the medieval grail tales and I'm a fan of Monty Python,too)
"I say, we've found the Key! Now where's that bloody lock?"
;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Czech religion -- d'Herblay, 13:17:18
08/07/01 Tue
CZECH REPUBLIC--44% Roman Catholic, 6% Protestant, 12% other Christian
(I presume mostly Moravian), 38% other (I'm guessing a smattering
of Jews, a small number of Muslim immigrants, a few free-thinking
atheists in Prague, but mostly people compelled to atheism between
WWII and glasnost).
SLOVAKIA--80% Roman Catholic, 12% Protestant, 8% other.
Most of the heretical sects arising in the area during the medieval
period and the reformation held the intention of removing the
monks and returning the riches of the monasteries to the people.
Dagon is the name of a Phoenician god, of either grain or the
sea, depending on who's doing the scholarship. He is treated as
a demon in the Old Testament, as well as in my (NERD ALERT!!)
Monster Manual II.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> "Tonos in the telos" and what
it means to The Gift -- Rufus, 17:25:00 08/04/01 Sat
I'm glad you told me about these terms because it makes me think
of how the events in season five lead to Buffy's sacrifice.
Could you consider Buffy's sacrifice again the tonos in the telos?
If you consider the key and how Dawn became who she was causing
Buffy to do what she did? Was Buffys sacrifice a form of tension
that pulled events towards the easiest channel? Did Buffy in being
okay with her work understand at a sub level that Dawn was meant
to be a reality in this world, that it was necessary that Dawn
be a reality in this world. It would sure shake up the people
that consider Buffys actions of protecting Dawn more than just
selfish. I see that the Monks may have figured out what Dawns
reality and her form in that reality was meant to be. Sending
her to Buffy was sending her to the one person who could make
sure Dawn's place in the baseline reality.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: "Tonos in the telos"
and what it means to The Gift -- Cleanthes, 19:00:25 08/05/01
Sun
Rufus asks "Could you consider Buffy's sacrifice again the
tonos in the telos? If you consider the key and how Dawn became
who she was causing Buffy to do what she did? Was Buffys sacrifice
a form of tension that pulled events towards the easiest channel?
Did Buffy in being okay with her work understand at a sub level
that Dawn was meant to be a reality in this world, that it was
necessary that Dawn be a reality in this world.
Well, these are fascinating questions to me. This concept of swerve
or tonos pulling things towards the easiest (or most divine, actually)
channel in the telos rests on, well, teleology , and so, cause
and effect are somewhat reversed.
I'm willing to speculate that having this key to the dimensions
in existence as formless energy set up an unstable tension in
the telos because it threatened too many complications. So, it
was easy for the monks to change the key in certain ways. Maybe
enspelling the key into a bicycle pump would have been as easy
a form as Dawn, but, anyway, the creation of Dawn may well have
created a stronger baseline reality. The Monks knew what they
were doing, even if they didn't have access to the 100% perfect
solution. Okay, that was my initial point.
Once the Monks chose Dawn, the slayer's sister & true blood kin,
though, further relief of tension now depends on this choice.
Thus, if Dawn remains the key and her existence relied on Buffy
more than Buffy's existence relied on Dawn --- well, again it
may have been a far, far better thing for Buffy to have died than
Dawn, not for Buffy but for reality itself. Heck, Dawn's death
in `The Gift` might have reset the tension in the universe back
to however great it was when the key was formless energy or worse.
Buffy GAVE a gift; she did not extract a penalty, which she would
have had to do were she to do a selfish act, IMO.
Buffy may have understood this on the sub-level you mention AND,
it could undergird the prophecy and the visions of the First Slayer.
Where does she exist in the telos? Obviously outside of time somehow.
So, in order to give her prophetic advice, the First Slayer must
be able to "hear" the tones of various tonos choices.
(ooh, I'm making etymology puns, you just know I've been drinking,
don't you? :-) )
One final point while I'm thinking about this. "Fiat Lux"
are the very first words spoken by God the Father, according to
St. Jerome's Vulgate. Someone on BtVS has also used these words,
right? Maybe having her instrumental in Buffy's return will make
sense because she will tap the power of God the Mother or something
equally close to ironic Perseity. (something so simple that its
per se nature cannot be subjected to alterations or tensions)
http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/z3604.html
http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/z3606.html
Joss is the dunce, reincarnated, isn't he? And that's high praise,
I think.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Fiat Lux -- Rufus, 00:16:27
08/07/01 Tue
Out of darkness comes light...makes me think of Willows spell
"Fiat Lux". When Buffy sacrificed herself in The Gift
I think that she did the right thing the unselfish thing. Dawn
for whatever reason was meant to be in our reality as a person.
When Buffy died she went into the light of Dawn. Willow has created
light which I think is the first property needed for life to exist.
Buffy's death has again caused a "tonos in the telos"
situation in that Sunnydale, the Hellmouth is without a slayer.
I don't find it entirely selfish for Willow to bring Buffy back
to continue the work the slayer does. Buffy will be back because
the universal tension caused by her death has to be compensated
for. Without the Slayer there will be chaos and the battle between
good and evil may become uncomfortably real to the oblivious inhabitants
of Sunnydale. If it is Willow that summons Buffy back I won't
be upset, she has created light before. Where I see Buffy's state
of mind is explained by what I read about Heraclitus who compares
reality to the flow of a river......saying that...'one could not
step twice into the same river'. I think that Buffy would resist
'stepping into the same river twice', she has lived and has known
pain and suffering, to step back into the reality she once inhabited
when alive would be enough to make anyone long to remain where
they were in peace. But as the Slayer and the fact that Buffy
feels love for her friends and sister, she will stay to protect
those she wanted to live.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Baseline reality regarding Dawn and Superstar........
-- Cleanthes, 08:09:29 08/04/01 Sat
In `The Replacement`, Willow easily restores the united Xander
because that reality more closely matches the way things are supposed
to be.
This bolsters your point, Rufus, about the differences between
the spell "creating" Dawn and the situation in `Superstar`.
The Superstar situation built a house of cards far from whatever
baseline "true" überPlatonic reality there is underlying
the dimensions.
Meanwhile, how can we say that the Key is *supposed* to be formless
energy? Is the key-as-formless-energy closer to this überPlatonic
reality underlying the various dimensions? I think not.
The Stoics believed that the universe had a swerve to it. [Umberto
Eco has written much about this in modern philosophy; I finished
his "Kant and the Platypus" over vacation, sorry for
the unnecessary digression, but maybe I'm suffering from the "just
read about this" syndrome.] This is sometimes referred to
as the tonos in the telos, or the tension that pulls events toward
the easiest channel in the flow of events.
Jonathon's spell pulled the tonos WAY off the mark(s) while the
monk's spell may even have moved the tonos CLOSER to the mark(s).
As a bit of formless energy, the key needed a sect of monks and
who knows what else to protect it. (and I like to think, for fun,
that the "holy grail" was actually the key -- but then,
that's just me because I love the medieval grail tales and I'm
a fan of Monty Python,too) Well, anyway, while the key didn't
have to be Dawn, it may well be that the Key-as-Dawn is now the
baseline reality.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Memories of Dawn--Pure Green Dot -- d'Herblay,
17:56:39 08/03/01 Fri
(Still going with the Sagan theme. Got one more . . . )
To use the Superstar comparison again [ . . . ] here's how I see
it:
*Jonathan's spell was used to make him the center of attention,
and an overt influence on the Buffyverse. Essentially, he was
playing god, and that's why the spell eventually broke down.
*In contrast, the monks' spell (and here we have men working for
God, it would seem), put Dawn on the periphery of Memory. I think
of it as a kind of "Where's Waldo" spell, in which Dawn
is there but not there. It's interesting that all her memories
seem "safe." There's nothing about her active involvement
in anything consequential with the SG.
The central difference between Jonathan's and the Monks' spells
is, you're right, their motivations. While Jonathan wanted to
be noticed, the Monks wanted the Key to be anything but. At the
moment of "Real Me," Spike, for example, would have
been recruitable by any new Big Bad promissing a de-chipping.
It would have behooved the monks to make sure that Spike's memories
of Dawn were indistinct and insignificant.
I'm betting, however, that Joss will somehow contradict this line
of reasoning in the future. I think that were Faith or Oz to return
to Sunnydale, she/he would have specific, significant memories
of Dawn. Cordelia wouldn't--not because the Monks didn't plant
them, but because she's Cordelia, homerically and hermetically
insensitive. I just think that the writers will not be able to
resist expanding on Dawn's (fictional) backstory. It's just too
much fun.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Bully for Buffysaurus! -- mundusmundi, 06:02:34
08/04/01 Sat
(First Sagan, now Gould. Confound it!....)
While Jonathan wanted to be noticed, the Monks wanted the Key
to be anything but.
Excellent point.
I'm betting, however, that Joss will somehow contradict this line
of reasoning in the future.
I'd be disappointed if he didn't. I've been hoping for some "fake
flashbacks" that would replay famous scenes from earlier
eps with Dawn in 'em. However, this might be kind of difficult
now with the no-crossover zone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Bully for Buffysaurus! -- d'Herblay,
16:15:54 08/04/01 Sat
Gould, now? How far can we take this?
"Ever Since Dawn"--which pretty well describes this
thread.
"Dawn's Little Piggies"--one of the more indelible sights
in "The Gift."
How about Dawkins?
"Climbing Mount Improbable"--will Joss's explanation
of Buffy's return satisfy?
"Unweaving the Rainbow"--the definitive investigation
of the Pylea arc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> LOL! There's always good stuff lurking
deep in the threads...;o) -- Wisewoman, 18:04:33 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> The Selfish Gene -- mm, 11:30:35
08/05/01 Sun
would seem an appropriate title for those who favor the Buffy
death-wish theory.
Back to Gould...The Slayer's Thumb. Unnecessary to hold a stake,
one of those freakish traits of evolution.
Crimeny, thought this thread was lost to the archives. How much
more juice can we shamelessly squeeze out of it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Must . . . keep . . . thread
. . . alive . . . -- d'Herblay, 13:39:41 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Memories of Dawn -- madie, 22:11:54 08/03/01 Fri
Wow. I just have to say that this version of Dawn is different
from what I gathered.
"I was glad when you started that thread, since I was already
head-long into researching my Dawn post and was puzzling over
how (theoretically) she could affect the SG without altering their
memories in such a way that it affected past events. "
"Ok-I've been thinking about this a bit for a while. Events
seem like something the monks could deal with not changing."
I would like to insert here that I thought that Dawn had stayed
with her Dad while Joyce and Buffy went to SunnyDale. I got that
sibling vibe off of Buffy and Dawn, especially when it came to
the invisible dad. I guess I must have just assumed that dawn
only visited on occation and was completely new to Sunnydale.
That's how the memories were a success, because she really wasn't
involved in anything important, because she wasn't there.
I also think that Buffy was more than jealous of Dawn being with
their dad, and then comming to sunnydale and loving up to Joyce.
It took Buffy time to regress back to the first stages of baby
hood to realize that her dad had actually failed them both, equally.
Then she was able to come out of it, get over her jealousy for
good, and let go of some of the anger towards her father.
I dunno. what do you guys think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> just for a quick laugh -- anom, 07:55:30 08/02/01 Thu
"...a few more bumps than usual on the Plot Hole Expressway."
Ah, the dreaded Plot Hole Pothole!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Great post, mm! -- Wisewoman, 18:22:13 08/02/01 Thu
Got me thinking about the "changes initiated in the SG owing
to Dawn's arrival" kinda thing. I can see where they've all
been affected, but I think that the major effect is, obviously,
on Buffy as others have pointed out.
But those implanted memories didn't just put Dawn on the scene
in episodes of Buffy's life--they effectively changed her from
an only child into a first-born, older sibling. Everything I've
read leads me to believe that those are two very different sets
of circumstances in which to grow up.
Think I'll go do some research in the birth-order literature and
see what I can come up with...
Thanks for a thought-provoking profile of the newest SG.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Effect of Birth Order on Buffy -- Wisewoman, 18:41:08
08/02/01 Thu
Hmmm, may not have had as big an influence as I thought...a quick-and-dirty
search yielded this:
FIRSTBORN · Characteristics: Tends to walk and talk earlier.
More serious, responsible and loyal to parents' values and standards.
May be a perfectionist; highly critical of himself or herself
or others. Dominant, assertive and conscientious. An expert procrastinator,
which counterbalances perfectionist tendencies. A natural high
achiever. Scholarly, logical, goal-oriented and status-conscious.
Well-organized; neurotic. Accepts authority, supports law and
order and is inclined to be a conservative. Attracted to high-achievement
occupations. · Career Track: Doctors, lawyers, industry
leaders, journalists, engineers, accountants, architects, executive
secretaries, computer programmers and bookkeepers. · Famous
firstborns: Bill and Hillary Clinton, Ted Koppel, Peter Jennings,
Saddam Hussein, Oprah Winfrey.
ONLY CHILD · Characteristics: Tends to be a lot like firstborns.
High self-esteem, self-sufficient. Relates well to adults. Admirable
skills for entertaining himself or herself. Misses out in forming
bonds with siblings, practice at caring for a peer. Doesn't learn
about competition, compromise or cooperation until school-age.
· Careers: Choices similar to those of firstborns. ·
Famous only kids: Charles Manson, Drew Barrymore, Courtney Love,
Leonardo DiCaprio.
Buffy sure managed to learn about competition before Dawn arrived,
but she now has had the opportunity to form a bond with a sibling
as well, and she certainly did that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Effect of Birth Order on Buffy -- mm (i.e.,
mundusmundi), 06:10:15 08/03/01 Fri
ONLY CHILD · Characteristics: Tends to be a lot like firstborns.
High self-esteem, self-sufficient. Relates well to adults. Admirable
skills for entertaining himself or herself. Misses out in forming
bonds with siblings, practice at caring for a peer. Doesn't learn
about competition, compromise or cooperation until school-age
Why, that's me in a nutshell! ;)
But seriously, I always liked the metaphor of Dawn's mystical
intrusion in the BV reflecting a fairly typical sibling rivalry.
In Real Me, Buffy says, "It's always been this way. She's
the baby. But for some reason, lately, it's really bugging me."
Only later, of course, does Dawn change for Buffy...as Rufus said,
"from pest to precious."
P.S. Maybe the fact that I was an only child makes the whole Dawn/Key
thing seem so cool to me. That I didn't read any spoilers last
summer made it even more mind-blowing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> It's more than just birth order... --
Kerri, 07:10:48 08/03/01 Fri
Dawn is a huge influence in Buffy's life. I'm not going to get
into this again. Read my response in this same thread called "memories
of Dawn"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> all the only children -- anom, 09:48:56 08/03/01
Fri
Until S6, weren't almost all the characters only children? There's
no mention of Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Oz, or even Giles having
siblings. I couldn't tell if Oz had a family at all, except for
the cousin who bit him! Buffy had at least one cousin, too, but
the only one we know about died in a hospital as a child. Maybe
a cast full of only children keeps things simpler, but it seems
a little strange when you think about it.
Of course, then Tara showed up, trying to get *away* from her
family, & then there was Dawn (kinda literally, actually--she
just *was*, one day). But I think it was when Buffy was having
roommate trouble & Giles said it was a hard adjustment for an
only child that it first occurred to me that they all seemed to
be only children.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party --
Victor Infante, 13:39:44 08/03/01 Fri
Dawn, for good or ill, has become the Buffyverse's impetus for
change.
Hmm? Isn't that always been the defining trait of an era's temprament?
How adults react to children? Are they overprotected (the kids
who grew up in the Depression and WWII) or are they scarcely protected
at all (the kids who grew up in the adult-self-involved 1960s
and 1970s.) Consider the rampant "MUST! PROTECT! CHILDREN!"
climate these days, and consider Buffy's actions in "The
Gift." Very interesting cultural commentary, that I don't
believe would have played out the same 20 years ago.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Buffy 1969 -- Wisewoman, 18:08:23 08/03/01 Fri
"So, like, you gotta jump in there, kid? Bummer. Hey, if
that's your trip, man, I'm cool."
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party
-- squireboy, 23:42:45 08/03/01 Fri
Extremely interesting point and one of the few in the whole sound
and fury about Dawn that have had any effect on me.
(For me, if S5 is the plothole-pothole, road under construction
express, The Gift is road closed, detour, consider other forms
of transportation.)
squireboy
"we band of buggered"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Plothole! Where? I don't see a--*Screeeech!*
;) -- mundusmundi, 11:55:52 08/04/01 Sat
Slayer Origin -- VampRiley, 19:04:42 08/01/01 Wed
Saw this over at the TBC&S spoiler board:
---------------------------
Date Posted: 16:35:42 08/01/01 Wed
Author: bacchus68
Author Host/IP: h12-20-43-1.chubb.com / 12.20.43.1
Subject: Fray #3(hints to buffy's end and origin of 1st slayer)
I don't know how many people have picked up the fray comic written
by Joss but the latest issue out today puts out a cool amount
of info about buffy and the first slayer. Fray takes place in
the distant future:
paraphrasing what the comic said:
The first slayer was created by magic shaman to combat the first
vampires that appeared. The watchers are decendents of these shaman.
A slayer(buffy) wiped all of the demons out of earths existence.
It seems to imply that they were sent back to their own dimension(dawn's
dimensional portal thingy) It also said that the slayer had to
fight an ARMY of DEMONS (sounds like shades of adam).
Since this story is written by Joss I think it can be a good idea
where he plans on taking the series and explains a little where
the slayers power actually comes from.it was a power that the
shaman(watchers) placed in the body of a girl. I wonder if it
actually is an entity that was placed inside the slayers. a demon
to fight the demons, that would explain dracula's stating her
power is rooted in darkness.
This also explains the connection between watcher and slayer more.
The thing I don't like is it seems like the slayer line ends with
Buffy. He writes that there are other slayers that have the power
after buffy but since buffy literally removes all of the demons
from our reality the watchers don't contact them or train them
and they never even realize they are activated slayers.
I hope he changes his mind on that front because without demons
there is now way he can continue a slayer type show or any show
in the universe after buffy hangs it up.
Another thing that is added in the comic that is cool is the fate
of the watchers. Without a slayer to watch the ones that sit and
wait for the return of the demons go insane from the wait.
Well I thought I would just add info here from joss's writing
to see what people think about the connection and forshadowing
he said in the comic as it relates to the show.
bac.
-----------------------------------
Just wanted to know what y'all think about it.
VampRiley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> that power sounds a lot like the Key -- Wilder, 19:50:28
08/01/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Slayer/Vampire connection -- Kerri, 20:34:39 08/01/01 Wed
"I wonder if it actually is an entity that was placed inside
the slayers. a demon to fight the demons"
A demon inside a human-hummm...a lot like a vamp-just with a soul.
Sounds kind of like Angel to me. A simular situation in that there
is something inside that influences the slayer. It comes down
to which is stronger the girl or the demon inside her. How much
of Buffy is the primal slayer?-that depends-how much does she
let herself be that demon. Who is in control?
Also-just wondering....does it actually say something-like a time-that
implies that Buffy is the slayer who sends the demons back to
their dimention?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Slayer/Vampire connection -- Andy, 06:33:41 08/02/01
Thu
"Also-just wondering....does it actually say something-like
a time-that implies that Buffy is the slayer
who sends the demons back to their dimention?"
I believe the comic mentions "the early 21st century"
as the time that the demons were banished. There isn't anything
that explicitly says it's Buffy, since Joss can't directly show
Buffy (Fox owns her, Joss owns Fray), but it does seem heavily
implied to be her. The comic also mentions that this last slayer
was "possibly aided by mystical allies" in defeating
the army of demons.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Slayer/Vampire connection *SPOILERS* --
spotjon, 10:34:38 08/02/01 Thu
The comic doesn't specifically say the early 21st century, though
that's probably what Joss had in mind. There also may have been
a little hint that Dawn had a hand in sending them back, and that
she didn't meet with too kind of a fate, herself. It doesn't specifically
say whether or not the last slayer survived this battle, or died,
though she may have been sucked into hell at the end.
A little more specifically, there are two panels depicting the
final battle. One, a silohuetted female figure carrying weapons
faces an army of demons, both large and small. The narrative reads
something like "All we know is that in the 21st century a
slayer faced an army of demons, which were somehow totally banished
from our dimension. All demons, all magicks, gone forever."
Two, we see a portal closing, with a demony tentacle reaching
out, alongside of a human female hand (complete with long pink
fingernails). Narrative goes something like, "Concerning
the fate of the slayer we do not know, she may have died then
or lived for some time after." I don't know whether the hand
sticking out is supposed to be the slayer's, or if perhaps it
might be Dawn's, using her power to seal the dimensions. In any
case, one unlucky girl apparently ends up playing housemate with
a dimension full of mightily pissed-off demons.
I'll pull out the issue later tonight to find the correct dialogue.
I was just paraphrasing above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Slayer/Vampire connection *SPOILERS*
-- Andy, 13:23:43 08/02/01 Thu
"The comic doesn't specifically say the early 21st century,
though that's probably what Joss had in mind."
Ah, that's right. I must be conflating that with something else,
maybe the promotional material, because I do distinctly remember
it being said somewhere that it was early 21st century :)
The look of the silhouette also seems very Buffy, with the girl
clearly wearing a skirt. Joss does like those girly touches when
it comes to Buffy (like his complaining that SMG was supposed
to be wearing pink, not white, in The Gift) :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Joss is teasing us -- Tanker, 16:10:01
08/02/01 Thu
He's giving us little things, like a Slayer in a skirt, that make
us think it might be Buffy, but that aren't conclusive enough
to prove anything. Then he sits back and watches us go nuts trying
to make sense of it. :-)
-- MZ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Slayer Origin -- Mike, 03:47:21 08/02/01 Thu
Maybe "rooted in darkness" can mean no more than the
Slayer would not have been created (if indeed it were) if there
HAD been no darkness needing to be combatted? In a way, that suggests
that the Slayer owes it origins to the demons or vampires
for me, the origin of the slayer is THE BIGGEST unanswered, and
suspenseful issue, of the show
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Huge Fray *Spoilers* with implications and speculations
-- darrenK, 11:46:52 08/02/01 Thu
Um, Well everyone else seems to be kinda of sedate about these
spoilers, I think they're huge.
Joss has never more than hinted at the origin of the Slayer, and
there it is.
And even more interesting, the origin of the Watchers. They don't
just manage the Slayer, they created her. And they didn't begin
as a bunch of Oxford types, they were the most powerful shamans
among humans. They saved the human race and they did it by creating
the Slayer. It puts a whole new spin on their relationship with
her and why they seem to feel such ownership of her.
Even more interesting is that perhaps Faith is more true to the
conception of what a Slayer is than Buffy. That the Slayer is
a Hunter, akin to a wilding animal. Not thoughtful. Not philosophical.
Just wild, just a killer. It now makes sense that the Watchers
have a unit to bring down rogue slayers. Even the 18th birthday
test makes more sense: it's a test from a forgotten time, a barbaric
test to ensure that Slayer is smart as well as strong. Even the
distaste the other Watchers feel towards Giles makes more sense.
He cares about the slayer, yet the slayer is--in the Watcher's
estimation--just a tool.
And the biggest spoiler of all is that those people who speculated--on
this board--that the whole series would end with Buffy and Dawn
sealing away the Demons behind a dimensional door SEEMS to be
correct.
Yes, maybe the comic didn't say Buffy, it said a Slayer in the
early 21st century, but come-on? What's Joss' life work? Not Faith
the Vampire Slayer. It's Buffy who has mystical allies--Dawn,
Willow, Tara, Anya, Angel, Cordelia (now a seer) and it looks
like it will all build toward what many of us hoped to see, a
grand blow-out. Joss has said that he wouldn't mind making movies
when the show ends. And of course the final apocalyse is worthy
of one.
And-my opinion- it also settles another question, the monks succeeded.The
Key will become pivotal in human form, a force for good. What
else did those few panels look like, but a key created dimension-door.
It makes Joss's purpose for Dawn even more easily understood,
she was not just sent to Buffy to be hidden from Glory, she was
sent as tool to complete the work of the Slayer. Permanantly.
dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> You're singing my song......I agree..... -- Rufus,
13:04:46 08/02/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Huge Fray *Spoilers* with implications and speculations
-- Liquidram, 13:22:13 08/02/01 Thu
"And the biggest spoiler of all is that those people who
speculated--on this board--that the whole series would end with
Buffy and Dawn sealing away the Demons behind a dimensional door
SEEMS to be correct. "
To take this discussion a step further, what would become of the
demons who are friends and/or part of the group? (Our vamps, Anya,
etc.?) Being demons and/or new humans, how would they be affected?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Happy ending? -- Kerri, 13:27:38 08/02/01 Thu
I'm a sucker for happy endings. Yes I know Joss isn't a big fan
of them but I can hope right? This leaves it open for Buffy and
Angel to be together-Buffy no longer needs to protect the world
and Angel becomes human. :) Probably not but...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Happy ending? -- Andy, 06:24:57 08/03/01
Fri
It's a pleasant thought, but knowing Joss I'd wager that if that
is Buffy, then the way it would play out is that Angel becomes
human...only to see Buffy get sucked through the portal (her hand
being the one sticking out of it) :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Happy ending? -- darrenK, 09:32:55
08/03/01 Fri
That just means that SG has to go to Hell to get her.
They will. They're like that, you know.
Plus, if there are no demons on Earth, than Sunnydale becomes
Green Acres and there won't be much room for new Vampire Stories
so they'll have to do something to keep it all going. dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> possible *spoilers* concerning half-demons --
spotjon, 14:55:16 08/02/01 Thu
I'm wondering if this ties in to the apocalypse talked about in
Angel, after which Angel is prophecied to regain his humanity.
My thought is that, as the Key sucks all of the demonic influence
out of our dimension, the demon part of Angel is also removed,
and thus his humanity restored. Anya wouldn't be affected since
she is no longer demon-y at all. Spike would most likely be sucked
into hell, though the human part of him might proceed to the afterlife,
while the demon part is being swept away. I just want to know
whose hand that is reaching out of the hell-portal in Fray.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> You can never be sure, though... -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
15:52:46 08/02/01 Thu
How about this: Faith is the one who gets rid of the demons after
Buffy and the Scoobies have realised that they need them after
all.
Lame, I know, but I just thought I'd put in a 'spoilers are hopeless
with Joss' kind of a post and spoil everyone's fun (kidding -
is there like a punctuation mark for sarcasm? And if not, why
not!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: You can never be sure, though... -- Tanker, 16:16:51
08/02/01 Thu
Or another Slayer entirely, late in the 21st century, who also
had mystical allies, because Buffy and Giles's example caused
a permanent change in the Watcher's attitude towards the Slayer
having friends. There's just no way to be sure that the Slayer
who defeats the demons is Buffy. Not yet, anyway.
-- MZ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: You can never be sure, though... -- darrenK,
09:51:16 08/03/01 Fri
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's going to be Buffy.
I'm going to go out on that limb because Joss is a storyteller
and for 5 years we've heard vague hints on both Angel and Buffy
to ultimate prophecies and final battles.
Joss is not about to end the Buffy/Angel story without an apocalypse
of a scale we haven't yet seen.
And when it happens I imagine that all our favorite characters
will be involved including Faith.
It's going to be something to see. dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Slayer Origin (and Promethea) -- Dedalus, 18:34:07 08/02/01
Thu
First off, thanks to the guys on my old Fray thread that recommended
Promethea. I've been buying up random issues all week, and good
lord ...
"I'm Promethea. There is nothing like me. I am the Holy Splendor
of the Imagination. I cannot be destroyed."
Goodness, Dedalus thought to himself, what have I got my hot little
hands on?
Anyway, those Fray spoilers were awesome. I knew we'd be getting
some major info down the line. That does totally jive with how
the Watchers see Slayers. I think the thing about the ancient
mages or whatever clearing the way for mortal animals was pretty
cool, too. I was wondering how humans ever got hold of this dimension
considering the proliferation of demons. Really, really big ones,
too. It's telling that the Powers did not create the Slayer. And
seeing how magic is sort of hereditary in Buffy, it makes sense
that the Watchers would try to keep it in the family as much as
possible.
Okay, so if this is just some magical force, is it like ... what?
Intelligent or something? How does it choose girls? The Watchers
don't seem to have much sayso in that department.
Anyway, yeah Joss. My only complaint is that the next issue of
Fray is not coming until OCTOBER!
As Spike would say, "BLOODY HELL!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Question about the slayer blood line -- Kerri, 07:18:21
08/03/01 Fri
So does this mean that after the watchers created the first slayer
the spirit or whatever that gives her power moves to the next
slayer after the previous slayer dies on its own. I mean it doesn't
seem like the watchers sent the power to each slayer. It seems
more like the power chose the girl.
Now if the power leaves the slayer after she dies then how come
both Buffy and Kendra were the slayer. Was Buffy perhaps not the
slayer after the master killed her. Is there something to the
"I feel strong. I feel different" comment?
Any ideas?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Question about the slayer blood line -- VampRiley,
09:37:23 08/03/01 Fri
My take on this is that if there is a force, it's a "living"
thing (maybe not "living" in the sense of being sentient;
maybe more like The Key's "living energy" or some other
type not thought of yet). It's independent from the Council since
they look for potential Slayers. If they did control it, then
they wouldn't be doing this. If there really is a force that goes
from girl to girl (chosen at random or not), I'm thinking that
this force only activates the dormant slayer abilities in each
girl thereby changing the girl. This force wouldn't act like a
Human soul (In Season 2, Angel loses his soul, turning him back
into the vamp he was before he got his soul back, his Humanity
is once again gone - not sure if this analogy makes sense). When
she dies, this force leaves her but doesn't deactivate her slayer
abilities and doesn't make her the girl she was before she was
called (Buffy still had her Slayer powers after being resuscitated
after the Master killed her). The force travels to the next girl,
wherever she is (Kendra and Faith) and starts the process all
over again. That's just my take on how there can be more than
one person with Slayer abilities.
Oh, Oh -- thought -- what if all the girls before they were slayers
actually didn't have dormant slayer powers and were just like
a normal Human. And this force acts in the same way that the "ritual"
(for lack of a better word) of turning a Human into a Vamp does
(being near death, drinking vamped blood, dying from blood loss
= VampNewbie). It's actually this force that goes "into"
the girl and without her realizing it, adds the powers of a slayer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Question about the slayer blood line --
Tanker, 12:02:38 08/03/01 Fri
There must be something about the girls who are destined to become
Slayers that the Watchers can identify. If they have dormant Slayer
powers, maybe that would make them stand out in a "locate
Slayer" spell.
If that's the case, though, the dormant powers must not stand
out too much, because Joss once said that Buffy was missed. She
apparently wasn't found until she became the Slayer. I bet, whether
she has dormant powers or not, that once a Slayer is activated
she looks like a beacon in a Slayer location spell.
I'm almost more interested in the proto-Slayers than the actual
Slayers. How many are there at any one time? How are they chosen?
Do they have any special abilities before they're called? How
do the Watchers find them? Is every potential Slayer destined
to become a Slayer, or can a girl "outgrow" it? Etc,
etc.
There is another thing to consider. Joss may be altering what
he's said in the past because he thought of something he liked
better.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> proto-Slayer speculation -- anom, 13:42:47
08/03/01 Fri
"I'm almost more interested in the proto-Slayers than the
actual Slayers. How many are there at any one time? How are they
chosen? Do they have any special abilities before they're called?
How do the Watchers find them? Is every potential Slayer destined
to become a Slayer, or can a girl "outgrow" it? Etc,
etc."
The "testing" of Slayers who survive to 18 implies that
they always start considerably younger than that, if just because
they'd need a good amount of training 1st. We know that Kendra
trained from a very young age--probably starting even before Buffy
was called. Don't know if that means she had special abilities
then. Buffy didn't seem to--remember, she'd been a cheerleader
in LA, which would have given her a good chance to discover any
out-of-the-ordinary athletic abilities. How many at one time--well,
it sure doesn't look like only one in all the world is *born*
in each generation, as we hear at the start of each ep. Unless
"born" is figurative & refers to the calling of the
Slayer...hmm, that might have implications for Buffy's "rebirth"....
There I go answering questions in reverse order again...this time
with "how funky is your chickennnn?" echoing in my head!
Is Suicide Selfish? -- Raelta, 22:12:53 08/01/01 Wed
I may be too far out of date to receive replies to this and I
may be slightly off subject on parts not being familiar with Buffy
but I will attempt to clearly state my opinion on the subject
question anyway.
Personally I believe that while sometimes suicide is selfish,
(i.e. when it's for causes such as making someone else feel bad
or getting back at someone) most of the time it isn't selfish.
Now I am taking this from the perspective of the person committing
suicide and not those left behind because I believe this is where
the real question lies. In this we must attempt to see the situation
from the point of view of this person. They are in so much pain
and anguish for whatever reason that life is not only something
they don't wish to continue, but something they actively and violently
wish to end. They wish it to end not to cause others pain or to
fulfill desires for retribution but to end their own pain and
suffering, and thus it is not selfish. This is my primary point.
To add to that however, often people who wish to commit suicide
genuinely see themselves as a truly bad person and so in their
view it is ridding the world of a taint and thus making it better.
In this way it could be seen as not only not selfish but in some
ways selfless. This is a stretch however and as it is not my primary
point I will leave it.
There is also another side. The side of the person left behind
in pain who feels suicide was a very selfish thing. Is this person
not being extraordinarily selfish themselves? To think that they
would wish upon the person they love for the continuing of the
tremendous pain that the suicidal person is experiencing. This
is like wishing for your friend to continue being tortured for
life. Admittedly there is the possibility for this person to continue
their life and have it improve and this may be what the friend
hopes for but the suicidal person does not see this. The suicidal
person has no hope for a happy ending any longer and thus continued
life is continued anguish and someone to wish them to live longer
is to curse them more terribly than anyone else ever could.
I would be more than happy to hear any replies to this, as this
is an argument I have been hoping to discuss with someone for
many months to see other ideas. Feel free to email me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Is Suicide Selfish? -- Rufus, 23:26:26 08/01/01 Wed
Suicide is an escape, but is it a valid escape? It depends on
the situation. I'm sure there are a few people who have killed
themselves to get even with someone, but it isn't always so simple.
Do we consider a terminally ill person in pain selfish to want
to die on their own terms? Can we ever understand the pain of
the depressed person who can only feel mental pain, enough pain
to wish to escape to nothingness? Each suicide originates under
different circumstances personal to the person who wishes to die.
The people who know the person who does this ultimate act of escape
will judge the action upon their beliefs and own state of mind.
I don't see suicide as selfish as much as desperate. Calling the
dead selfish is just a way of trying to understand that persons
last act. The dead are beyond our judgement or opinions.
Dreams -- Mike, 03:23:54 08/02/01 Thu
I thought it might be interesting for everyone to post what dreams
they have had about Buffy, Angel et al.
Not only that, it might be interesting for someone to ANALYSE
the dreams once we have posted them!
Yes, this thought is prompted by my own dream last night, which
was pretty freaky...
"I was flat hunting with a friend and we saw this lovely
appartment in central london where a strange old woman gave us
the chills, so even though we liked the flat we, left. Outside,
something had happened to London, as DEMONS were running around
wild... and they were all in the form of ALLIGATORS. They were
different sizes. Some were of Godzilla proportions - and it seemed
that the more people they ate, they larger they got. My friend
disappeared (ate). I took refuge in the foyer of this appartment
block, where we locked the doors and barricaded them with beer
barrels (?). There was a mirror, I looked in it and my face was
that of Bill Bixby's (??!).
The dream then kinda jumped to the next day..
The demons (alligators) were rampaging in London in part due to
me (though I dont know why, I just knew that) I went to see the
Host, who had a rather fishy blue scaly appearance with several
tentacles coming out his head (but in the dream he was still the
host)...
then the dream jumped again..
my girlfriend came to see me (and she was Brooke Adams from The
Dead Zone), and she was angry at me cos I had become a demon (Bill
Bixby's face with the blue scaly tentacles, cool!). But I had
done this to save the world, and the demon alligators were no
more...
SO, there u go, my Buffy-related dream last night (although evidently
it was more Angel-esque..)
OVER TO YOU!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dreams (possible spoiler) -- d'Herblay, 03:43:13 08/02/01
Thu
I had two Buffy dreams recently, one of which I don't discuss
in mixed company. The other one took place during the upcoming
musical episode. I was playing Spike (as I always do in my dreams),
and was part of a big production number with Buffy and Dawn. Sort
of one of those "Anchors Aweigh" numbers where you sing
and dance all over town, only instead of New York we were dancing
through Sunnydale. Sarah nailed the number, but I didn't know
the words and Michelle kept missing her steps. We just frantically
followed after Sarah.
Now I now longer dream about Buffy. Now I dream about this board.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Hmmmmmmm, what you dreamin about this board...spill..:):):)
-- Rufus, 13:06:41 08/02/01 Thu
I know, I know...dreams of fluffy kitties and chocolate...right???????:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dreams -- little wiggins, 04:07:50 08/02/01 Thu
This isn't a buffy dream, but it's a passions one which kinda
has an association to buffy. I had a dream that I was in a mac
cafe buying coffee for kay and charity and my own was a free small
cappanico.... Kay had a tall cappanico and charity had a turkish
coffee in one of my mum's regular sized smoky coloured see through
cups. We were standing in line and the cashier told me it was
$30. I looked through my purse/bag then at Kay and Charity and
told them I wasn't expecting it to be that much. And they just
looked back at me and then I woke up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Dreams -- Sil, 08:00:52 08/02/01 Thu
I find this both hilarious and eerie... what does that say about
me?! and it was your dream, wha does it say about you??!
More!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The Bill Bixby part is what gives me the wiggins. -- Solitude1056,
06:06:41 08/02/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Well, okay, so there was this dream last night...
-- Solitude1056, 06:35:32 08/02/01 Thu
Which, no surprise, starred Dawn throughout the dream, including
several scenes set at work. I think she was polishing her nails
with blue and orange nail polish while I was directing programmers
to stick their fingers in the company's wall to plug all holes
from nasty virii. That's about as much as I remember...
...but there was this dream I had last week or so, when I was
in the middle of heavy-duty code cleanup on the group story, and
trying to code several other fictionary independent pieces for
those authors. I had a dream where I couldn't talk to, or interact
with, anyone unless I checked the HTML code superimposed on either
side of them. And if I was missing an angle bracket or a closing
hyper marker, I'd get an error and not be able to continue with
the dream until I'd fixed it.
See, now THAT'S a sign I need (another) vacation!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Bill Bixby part is what gives me the wiggins.
-- Mike, 07:11:09 08/02/01 Thu
I'd like to think that the Bill Bixby part was subconsciously
arbitrary, and that I don't really have a fetish for old craggy
faces (no offence intended Sol!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dreams -- Tanker, 07:35:20 08/02/01 Thu
I'd love to participate in this thread, but the Buffy and Angel
dreams I've had lately were so disturbing that I'm afraid I will
freak people out for real. Let's just say that one included dismembered
corpses. Actually, I can't even remember what that one was about.
Just as well.
I do remember my first ever Buffy dream, a few years ago. I was
a generic bad guy, and Buffy beat me up. That's about it. She
was really sexy when she beat me up, though.
I'll just include one scene from the Angel dream I had yesterday,
which I'd really like to talk about, but it's like, NC-17. For
violence. Anyway, I was again a bad guy. I saw Angel in an alley
and approached him with the intent to kill and rob him. He saw
me coming, and grinned. Then he vamped. Then he *flew* through
the air in a graceful arc and landed next to me.
What happened next, without going into details, was that I "rewound"
the dream so that instead of Angel killing me, I was able to fight
him off. The dream became just lucid enough. I've had quite a
few dreams like that, where I'm about to be killed or something,
and I stop the dream and set it up so I win. This one just happened
to have Angel in it.
-- Mike (I'm NOT a violent person. I've been in exactly one fight
in my life, and am such a big crybaby that it's pathetic. I just
have violent dreams.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I believe you! -- Mike, 07:50:12 08/02/01 Thu
I really do. The mind has a habit of exploring things which we
bury so deep subconsciously that we don't even know it exists.
that's why sometimes we wake up and think "wow, what was
all THAT about!" In it's own way, the mind expressing that
is a release, so it never DOES become a conscious thought or action.
HEALTHY!!
I love it when dreams don't make any sense, though I cannot profess
to be any kind of expert on them, and what they mean.
I have to say i am thoroughly jealous you had a lucid experience
though. that has never happened to me :(((
This thread is fascinating so far. Sol, holiday now!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Dreams, in general... -- Wisewoman, 11:54:16 08/02/01 Thu
While I've never had a Buffy-related dream (that I remember) I
have had a couple that significantly impacted my life.
In my 30s I used to dream a lot about bears. Grizzly bears. And
being attacked by them. I remember one dream where I was in the
kitchen of my house, and I heard something at the back door and
I just knew it was a bear. So I stood there, kinda frozen with
fear, and the bear took a swipe at the door, broke right through
it and shoved it's head inside. The thing was, in the dream I
not only saw the bear, inches away from me, very clearly, saw
the yellow-ivory color of it's lower teeth, with grooves of a
nicotine color running through them, saw it's grey-pink tongue,
it's black, wet nose, small, amber-colored eyes, etc, etc, but
I felt the heat from it's body and fur, and I smelled both the
wild fur smell of it's body and the hot smell of it's breath.
It was absolutely the most vivid dream I've ever had. I had lots
of other dreams of bears, but not as three-dimensional as that
one. Eventually, I decided to take the bear as my "totem"
and started collecting images and statues of bears, and the dreams
stopped.
My understanding of dream interpretation is that everything in
the dream represents a part of yourself. If that's the case, then
the bear was a very powerful and scary part of myself that I wasn't
willing to face. Maybe by accepting the bear as a totem, I did
that...who knows?
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Speaking of dreams... -- Anthony8, 13:00:02 08/02/01 Thu
...remember that dream in 'Innocence' (?) where Buffy reaches
to grab Angel's hand just as he turns to ashes? When I was a kid,
about 5 or 6 at the time, I used to have a recurring dream that
I was on fire, and as I tried to run out into the hall of our
apartment to get help, my legs would turn to ashes underneath
me preventing me from advancing. Then the smoke and ashes would
choke the air so much that I couldn't make a sound. When I saw
the BtVS episode, that dream came back to mind so vividly.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Coupla of us recently performed a spell and summoned the
power of the First Poster ;) -- mundusmundi, 14:54:35 08/02/01
Thu
Nah. But I did recently dream I was helping Buffy, Xander and
Willow collect weapons for some vamp job. Guess that's better
than dreaming of opening a hardware store with Giles.
Queer As (Undead, Bloodsucking) Folk -- dan, 21:35:44 08/02/01
Thu
So I've been thinking lately about how I can divide up my friends,
relatives, and acquaintances into two camps:
1) Hip to Buffy
2) Not Hip to Buffy.
And i've realized that way more of the people that i know who
are into buffy are GLBT (gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered) as
compared to those people that i know who are not into buffy.
While I wouldn't call BtVS a 'gay show' (anymore than I would
call it a 'straight show'), I think that there is something about
the show that powerfully appeals to GLBT folks, and it does tap
into something that for lack of a better term I'll call a queer
sensibility.
(A note on terminology: as a young gay guy who's been out for
years, I feel comfortable in using "queer" as a blanket
term for GLBT folks. Why? Well, I'm not the world's biggest fan
of unwieldy acronyms, I like the inclusiveness of the word, and
I like the political charge it carries as a reclaimed insult.
I know that some people aren't crazy about the word. If you're
one of those, pretend I wrote "GLBT" everytime I use
the word "queer.")
Of course, the show's always been comfortable with putting in
queer subtext and text, from Larry the football player to the
sensual charge between Buffy and Faith. And of course, Willow
and Tara have been a huge draw for queer viewers. But I think
the show's draw for queer folks is more than just visibility.
I think that the show's grappling with issues of gender expectations,
notions of created "non-traditional" families, and the
many impacts that sex and sexuality can have upon life are all
themes that have a special charge for queer folk.
I also think that the show's curious mixing of tones (what other
show on television has made me laugh so hard, actually tear up,
AND powerfully freaked me out? Answer: none.) resonates in a way
for queer folks. It feels like the show taps into the rich heritage
of camp and puts its own spin on it.
ech. i think i'm too tired to write this post fully now. i'll
just send this misshappen missive out now and garner some feedback.
does all of this seem way off base?
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Queer As (Undead, Bloodsucking) Folk -- Wiccagrrl, 22:13:14
08/02/01 Thu
I think you may have a point. I hate generalizations, but...I
think that Buffy may resonate with quite a few people in the queer
community for a lot of reasons. It's campy, the subtext is undeniable
(and has become maintext in some cases), there is a certain amount
of genderbending that challenges traditional gender roles, and,
one of the biggest things for me- From the start, Buffy dealt
with a core group who were somewhat outsiders- not fitting into
societal norms. It dealt with people who felt alienated to some
extent, and how they coped with that. It had a hero who struggled
every day with wanting to feel "normal" (whatever that
means). It dealt with taboo/unconventional relationships. Looking
at eps like Becoming, where Buffy comes out of the weapons closet
to Joyce, I think it's easy to see where some of the themes/issues
dealt with could strike a chord with GLBT fans. Besides, Joss
works on a very metaphorical level, and I think that a lot of
us in the gay community have gotten used to reading between the
lines when it comes to mass media.
Crossovers -- Mike, 04:11:22 08/03/01 Fri
Aaargh, my threads are disappearing SOO quickly, I'm having to
think of new ones off the top of my head (which can ONLY mean
trouble!!!)
I was wondering with which series would you liek to see Buffy
crossover? And of course this is hypothetical, so it could be
ANY series
For example, Charmed would be interesting, and the X-Files, but
they're kinda obvious selections.
How about something more interesting like...
Ally McBeal?? Buffy stakes Ling, Xander thaws the Ice Maiden,
Willow hooks up with John Cage... er...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Brian, 04:48:13 08/03/01 Fri
How about Nash Bridges, just up the road in SF?
The Scoobies gang with Joyce goes North to wipe out a vampire
nest that turns out to be robbing banks, and Nash is on the case:
Nash thinks Joyce is hot:
Evan tries to seduce Buffy:
Willow and Harvey do the computer thing, while Giles and Harvey
do a 60's duet of some Grateful Dead song:
Xander is smitten with Cassidy:
Anya and Joe get together to work out some crazy money making
scheme:
Buffy and Nash discover they have an "Angel" in common:
Nick thinks Buffy must be family as she is the "spitting
image" of Nash's mother.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Cactus Watcher, 06:55:17 08/03/01 Fri
How about Friends? Buffy + gang visit NY and chase demon to the
vicinity of Central Perk. Scoobies meet Friends when Buffy stakes
Phoebe, because she obviously is not human. Fortunately, Phoebe
is not a vampire either and survives. Phoebe and Buffy swap stories
about their mothers and about having new siblings pop-in out of
nowhere. Willow de-rats Amy just long enough for Ross to marry
her. Amy goes back to rat form and Ross moans about marrying a
rat for the rest of his life. Joey says "How you doin'?"
to Dawn, which leads Spike to the discovery he can beat up moronic
actors. Chandler and Tara feeling left out, kiss each other as
a joke. Rachel sees them and thinks the worst, but she can't tell
anybody because a) If Buffy thought Phoebe was a vampire, Monica
is taking no chances, and is hiding in Jersey. b) Rachel would
never talk to anyone with Willow's taste in clothes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Crossovers - Buffy meets Classic Star Trek - This
is fun -- Brian, 08:45:47 08/03/01 Fri
While the Enterprise is exploring, Shock finds a new energy source
that seems to have its origin rooted in 2001. Using the sling
shot effect, they travel back in time, and end up in Sunnydale
(The energy source is the Hellmouth, stretching across time).
They meet the Scoobies and wackiness ensues:
Willow and Spock discover their mutual appreciation of computers.
Kirk hits on Buffy (great grossout factor here).
Xander and Checkov argue about who has better contruction technigues,
The Russians or the US. Joyce falls for Bones' swave Sothern charm.
Nurse Chapel and Tara share a couple of bottles of Romulian Ale
as their respective honeys appear so wrapped up in each other.
Giles and Sulu compare fensing technigues. Spock discovers that
the Vulcan pinch works on vamps. Anya checks the computer records
looking for future hot stock tips. The respective groups discover
that a solid phaser blast into the Hellmouth will seal all of
them forever. Buffy gets to retire; Angel becomes human, they
get married and move to San Diego. Kirk and company return to
their own time era. Later Spock comments that the desendents of
Buffy and Angel move to Iowa, and are actually ancestors of Jim
Kirk.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Earl Allison, 08:50:10 08/03/01 Fri
How about a crossover with "Gargoyles," the late, lamented
animated series from Disney?
Buffy and the Scoobies travel to Manhattan, where they cross paths
with Goliath and his Clan -- obvious misunderstandings occur when
Buffy assumes the gargoyles are demons and tries to kill them.
However, the two sides need to work together to stop Demona from
unleashing some new arcane threat.
Brooklyn would try desperately to impress Buffy (what the heck,
he's thrown himself at Maggie Reed and Angela already, Buffy would
just be next in line).
Giles could check out Xanatos' private library and collection
of arcane items -- maybe even meet MacBeth himself!
Xander and Anya could teach Bronx some stupid pet tricks, and
Anya can fuss over baby Alexander Xanatos ("Why look, he's
even got your name, Xander!").
Willow and Tara could compare notes (magically) with Puck (Owen's
true form) and see how their witch magics compare to Fey magic.
Thoughts?
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Buffy meets The A-Team -- mundusmundi, 12:56:02 08/03/01
Fri
Yes, I can see it now.
Yet again on Halloween, Ethan Rayne performs a spell that causes
Hannibal to get possessed by a monster while in costume on a movie
set. The Scoobies join The A-Team on the case, but Willow has
to use magic to fool B.A. into thinking they didn't travel by
plane. Compulsive womanizer Face sleeps with Buffy, only to lose
his Gypsy curse of tiresome one-dimensionality and becomes an
interesting character. Xander's jokes start getting on B.A.'s
nerves --"Shut up, fool!" he bellows -- and crazy Murdock
unnerves Dawn by saying, "I know who you are, Curds and Whey.
You don't belong here!"
At the end of the show, Giles smirks, lights a cigar and says,
"I love it when a plan comes together."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- vampire hunter D, 13:19:10 08/03/01 Fri
I would like to see an Angel/Forver Knight crossover. Come on,
lets put the two biggest remorseful vampires on tv at once! It
would also be interesting to see Dru and Darla hook up with Lacoix(sp?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Rattletrap, 18:45:52 08/03/01 Fri
Maybe an Angel/Seventh Heaven crossover in which Darla and Dru
eat the Camdens. OK, it might not be a crossover in the conventional
sense, and you'd still have to fill another 40 minutes of air
time, but I'd watch it . . .
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers btvs with dr who/star trek/forever knight
-- gds, 20:59:19 08/03/01 Fri
If you really want cossovers there are some.
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/index2.htm
is the starting point. Some specifics are
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/p1.htm
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/widomsv.htm
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/sk.htm
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/bxst1.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Oh, neat...... -- Rufus, 18:55:16 08/04/01 Sat
I know I'm tired when I thought one of the titles was the Secret
of Syphillis.........so embarrassed here....:):):)I bookmarked
it to read when more with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Rosenberg, 21:17:18 08/03/01 Fri
I gotta go with the Buffy/Seinfeld crossover. George could be
knocked into another demension after asking too many lesbien questions
to Willow and Tara; Giles and Kramer become good friends until
he burns his magic shop down; Jerry gets rid of all the furniture
in his apartment after Buffy stakes a vampire and the vampy dust
sprays everywhere; Elaine hits on Spike, but stops because he
uses the word "bloody" too much. Ahhh, memories . .
.
And where would we be if Anya and Morty Seinfeld didn't go into
business together?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Crossovers-Buffy meets The Highlander -- Brian,
04:47:51 08/04/01 Sat
Since both are fantasies and there are about a zillion fan fictions
already written that crossover the shows, Buffy meets the Highlander
seems a natural.
A nasty demon leaves LA with Angel, Cordelia, and Doyle hot on
his trail. This demon stops off in Sunnydale, and robs the Magic
Shop of some vital artifacts that could bring disaster to the
world. So the Scoobies are on the case. The demon moves north
to Highlander country: The Scoobies et al. follow and high jinks
ensue:
Joe and Giles get together for some funky blues, and trade watcher
stories. Doyle, Spike, and Methos go out for some serious drinking.
Willow and Tara get some witchy tips from Cassandra. Ritchie hits
on Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, and Anya. Cordelia, Anya, and Amanda
borrow Mac's credit cards for some serious shopping. Joe and Joyce
hit it off, and compare notes on the trials and tribulations of
dealing with superpowered responsibilities. Ritchie and Xander
get into a tiff about who's more ineffective in a battle. Angel
and Mac compare brooding techniques. Mac shows Buffy some new
sword fighting techniques. Willow and Joe do the computer thing.
Xander develops a crush on Amanda, but realizes she's too young
for him. Fitzcairn shows up and he and Anya develop a get rich
scheme. The demon? Oh, Mac and Buffy does some sword work, and
turn him into sushi.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> lol! -- mundusmundi, 06:45:59 08/04/01 Sat
Or, Jerry could have stake-envy. ;)
Classic Movie of the Week - August 3rd 2001 - GP / BT! -- OnM,
22:18:06 08/03/01 Fri
OK, like I promised last week, this month we're going to do something
a little different.
A few weeks back, when I did my 'anti-review' of *The Avengers:
The Movie*, I compared it to *Star
Wars: The Phantom Menace*, with the primary comparison being that
I felt the critical failure of both of
these movies was not in that they didn't look good, or have adequate
acting talent available, but that in
each case, despite creating a substantial degree of very appealing
'eye candy', the films lacked the element
of 'soul'.
Now, I'm not referring here to what James Brown exhibits when
he sings, but more so the type of soul that
we talk about when we discuss the Buffyverse. Within the context
of that universe, Joss has defined 'soul'
as being the sort of core essence of sentience that drives it
in the general direction of doing good. As we
have seen time and again over the last five years, this isn't
anywhere as simple as it sounds at first. The
nature of moral ambiguity is that one can, with the very best
intentions, end up committing an act with evil
consequences. Conversely, the act of a normally evil being can
have unforseen consequences of good.
If a movie has 'soul', it doesn't automatically mean that it is
a good movie, but at least in most cases it
means that there were good intentions afoot somewhere. Even if
the flick was basically inten