August 2001 posts
Random question: Are all demons immortal? -- Kerri, 09:43:06 08/01/01
Wed
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[> no -- vampire hunter D, 11:36:36 08/01/01 Wed
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[> It just seems like it ... -- purplegrrl, 11:44:52 08/01/01
Wed
... because they're bigger, meaner, and harder to kill.
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[> maybe if you don't kill them... -- nathan, 00:54:52 08/02/01
Thu
maybe they just last forever...or live *really* long if they don't
get killed/cursed/are left in perfect health...
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[> [> Re: maybe if you don't kill them... -- Cynthia, 04:40:44
08/02/01 Thu
Well, it not like humans have been going out of their way to study
them for the purpose of discovering their life span expectancy.
Would be rather hazardous to one's health.
Wouldn't it also depend on what dimention they are originally
from? And what they need to survive. I would assume some demons
are more hardy than others.
Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party -- mundusmundi,
15:10:18 08/01/01 Wed
The Dawn-Haunted World:
Good, Evil and the Key in the Buffyverse
The WB certainly didn't say, 'Can you add a moppet? Everyone likes
a moppet!'
-Joss Whedon, re: the casting of Michelle Trachtenberg (quoted
at E!Online, 7/16/00)
Maybe I'm not evil, but I don't think I can be good.
-Dawn Summers, Tough Love
Say your life were a television show, that the family you love
were transitory TV kin. You could wake up tomorrow morning, discover
your husband looks like a completely different person, and you
wouldn't even think to call the cops on the stranger in your house.
You could have an older brother, a basketball freak always shooting
hoops in your yard, who one day vanishes without a trace, and
no relative, friend or neighbor would ever inquire about his whereabouts.
Or a baby sibling, born in a taxicab after all sorts of wacky
hijinks, who evolves into a sickeningly precocious five-year-old
over a single summer, and nobody would find this freak of nature
odd. (Though what is the deal with his peculiar habit of glancing
off to the side every time he speaks, as if he were reading off
cue cards?)
Or, you could have a fourteen-year-old sister who isn't really
your sister, whose memories of your life together are false, as
are your own. And one day you would have to make a Sophie's Choice
and decide if she were less than real or something more, if she
were worth the world to save....
***
The image of Dawn limping and bleeding her way down the tower
at the end of The Gift vividly illustrates what Joss Whedon must
have felt like after pulling this season off. Like Dawn, the show
survived, but not without a price: other characters and storylines
got lost in the shuffle, and I detected a few more bumps than
usual on the Plot Hole Expressway. Nevertheless, the arrival of
Little Miss Summers-both the youngest and oldest of the Scoobie
Gang, "brat kid sister" on one hand, "mystical
glowy key thing" on the other-has created some nifty moral
conundrums and matured Joss's understanding of family (which,
prior to this year, always seemed a tad juvenile). What could
have been a disaster wound up being a highlight. What could have
been a cheap gimmick-the Incredible Appearing/Disappearing Family
Member, from Bewitched to Happy Days to Family Ties-has breathed
new life into Buffy the series, even as it led to the death of
Buffy herself.
Which raises a troubling question. Make no mistake, I think Dawn
has been a great addition to the show. I liked her right away
and grew only more fond of her as the season progressed. ("Not
in a creepy way," Willow would hasten to add.) But has she
been good for the Buffyverse? That is, are the SG and the world
they inhabit a better place with her in it, or has the presence
of the Key in human form caused irretrievable damage? The Key
is the link, the Knights of Byzantium believed, the metaphorical
dark matter that holds the Buffyverse together. (I'm reminded
of Carl Sagan's observation that we are all "starstuff.")
Whether that link must be severed or spared depends on how one
has come to view this complex character. Let's take a closer look,
then, at some of the essential Dawn episodes of the past year.
***
We first meet the Dawnster at the conclusion of Buffy vs. Dracula-not
the greatest episode, as has been thoroughly opined. But its tantalizing
coda, in my mind, makes up for any shortcomings. Early on, Joyce
mentions how lonely it's going to be in the house again with her
only daughter off to college, yet at the end we see this strange
girl rifling through one of Buffy's boxes. (Already a klepto,
or just unconsciously finding her bearings in her new home?) Others
have pointed out that when Buffy sees her "sister" in
her room, there is a fleeting moment of uncertainty when she asks
(actually demands), "What are you doing in here?" The
moment passes and Dawn is accepted, but on some level Buffy appears
to sense a disruption in the natural order of things.
There was a considerable risk that the viewers might come to resent
Dawn as much as Buffy does. But the next eppy, Real Me, cannily
gets us to identify with the niblet by filtering a day's events
through her perspective. We gather that she's smart ("I heard
[Giles] use the word 'newfangled' once, so he must be pretty out
of it"), witty ("I'm not going to Hogwarts"), empathic
(relating to Harmony's self-esteem issues), and basically good-natured
(her sweet crush on Xander). She is also something of a brat,
constantly bitching about Buffy and feeling overshadowed by her
sister the Slayer. In sum, she appears blessedly normal, yet something
ominous begins to creep around her and into the Buffyverse. Starting
in Real Me and carrying over through the next few episodes, Dawn
encounters a rash of mentally ill people who finger her as something
unnatural. "I know who you are. Curds 'n' Whey," one
tells her. "You don't belong here."
A few weeks ago (7/11), Wiccagrrl started a good thread about
Real Me being the entire season in miniature. In a lighthearted
way, it does play like a dry run of The Gift, with Harmony and
her minions kidnapping Dawn and tying her up as Slayer bait. However,
it's important to note that the Dawn we meet in RM is not the
same person by the time of The Gift. This "innocent"
girl, who enjoys school and seems largely oblivious to the dangers
of the Buffyverse will be by season's end a rebellious social
outcast in the midst of a hellish identity crisis.
Despite the connotations of Dawn with Little Miss Muffet, it's
more a reverse Alice in Wonderland who comes to mind. Both are
bright-eyed girls struggling to survive in hostile new environments.
But whereas Alice is a "real" person who stumbles into
a fantasy world, Dawn is a living fiction stuck in the "reality"
of the Buffyverse. Alice's trial, of course, is rendered ultimately
bogus; Dawn's sentence, on the other hand, has devastating consequences.
***
In No Place Like Home, several plotlines that had been painstakingly
set up are finally set in motion. Besides the introduction of
Glory (i.e., the Queen of Hearts, only a brain-sucker not a head-lopper)
and Joyce's encroaching illness, Buffy learns that Dawn is not
really her sister. She is, a dying monk informs her, something
else entirely:
MONK: You have to... the Key. You must protect the Key.
BUFFY: Fine. We can protect the Key together, okay, just far,
far from here.
MONK: Many more die if you don't keep it safe.
BUFFY: How? What is it?
MONK: The Key is energy. It's a portal. It opens the door...
BUFFY: The Dagon Sphere?
MONK: No. For centuries it had no form at all. My brethren, its
only keepers. Then the abomination found us. We had to hide the
Key, gave it form, molded it flesh... made it human and sent it
to you.
BUFFY: (gets it) Dawn.
At first Buffy is understandably angry and refers to Dawn as if
she were a stray pooch left on the Summers' doorstep. But the
monk persuades her that sending the Key was an act of trust, and
that protecting it requires an act of love:
MONK: Please... she's an innocent in this. She needs you.
BUFFY: She's not my sister.
MONK: She doesn't know that.
From Dawn's perspective, every moment of her fourteen years has
been real, every epoch as the Key unknown. It's a lovely metaphor:
When young, of course, each day feels like an eternity. But what's
most striking about her "memories"-playing on a swingset,
picking up seashells on a beach, riding a merry-go-round-is how
generic they are. Though the monks meant well, the harmlessly
bland past-life they created left her, in some respects, unprepared
for a harsh reality. Dawn's story is about innocence lost. She
aged a lifetime in only one year; she can never go back.
***
'Who are you,' said the Caterpillar.
Alice replied, rather shyly. 'I hardly know, Sir, just at present-
at least I know who I was when I got up this morning, but I think
I must have changed several times since then.'
-Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
Dawn vanishes for a while down the rabbit hole after NPLH, yet
the few times we see her are actually quite revealing. In Family,
jenoff notes at his/her website, Dawn allies with Buffy for the
first time, the "hair puller" standing for Tara against
her family. In Shadow, she tries to compliment Riley-"I think
you've been really good for (Buffy)"-only to unwittingly
send him over the edge. In both Triangle and Checkpoint, she (re)plays
Harriet the Spy by adding eavesdropping to her repertoire of dubious
talents. At the start of the season, we were teased into thinking
Dawn was evil or at least somehow responsible for Joyce's condition
(a fail-safe option, I've a hunch, in case the actress, the character
or the chemistry didn't pan out). Now it's Dawn with whom we are
meant to empathize. As the last of the SG to learn the truth about
herself, she is pushed increasingly further into isolation.
When Dawn finally discovers her true identity in Blood Ties, nothing
in the Buffyverse is ever really the same. The SG's awkward reactions
(e.g., Xander tickling her half-disbelievingly, as if she were
the Pillsbury Dough Girl), Dawn's mounting suspicions, and the
traumatic moment where she cuts herself with a knife are all wholly
credible. Moreover, the burning of her diaries-her phony memories-drives
home the point that although she may not be "real,"
her feelings are. It's touching and painful to see her thinking
she's worthless (even if it's prompted by a hoary device, the
Misunderstood Overheard Conversation Scene), when she couldn't
be more special.
Blood Ties is also crucial for launching the Dawn/Spike relationship,
one of those happy accidents of actors' chemistry and superbly
written characterization. They share a priceless scene after the
former flees Buffy's birthday party and stumbles on the latter
loitering in the front yard:
DAWN: Jeez! Lurk much?
SPIKE: Wasn't lurking. I was standing about. It's a whole different
vibe.
DAWN: What is- (Folds her arms and smirks) Are you giving Buffy
a birthday present? Oh my god. Weird. And chocolates? Lame. And
the box is all bent and you know she'd never touch anything from
you anyway.
It's easy to forget how unimpressive Spike originally was in her
eyes. Back in Checkpoint, she expresses revulsion at being couped
up in his lair (or maybe just the fact that she has to watch Passions).
Here, though, the pair realize that they share at least one favorite
pastime.
DAWN: I'm breaking into the magic shop. To steal things.
SPIKE: Magic shop, eh? (looks over his shoulder) All number of
beasties between here and there. Bet they'd really go for a little
red riding hood like you. Bet that wouldn't sit too well with
big sister.
DAWN: (uncertain) I can take care of myself. (pause) You wanna
come steal some stuff?
SPIKE: Yeah, all right.
Some have objected that Dawn's crush on Xander got short shrifted.
But the switch to Spike, from a "good boy" to a "bad
boy," makes perfect sense in psychological terms of the character.
Aquitaine mentioned in her excellent Spike essay that it just
seems natural these two outsiders would gravitate toward one another.
"They are equals in freakdom," she wrote. "They
can talk to each other, forgive each other, care for each other"
(7/18). They have an unforced connection that carries over into
Crush, where the "little bit," feeling out-of-sorts
at home, seeks asylum with the same vampire who initially repulsed
her. "I like how you talk to me," she tells him, "like
I can understand things." She also shares the bleached-blonde
one's gifts of perception, as when she clues Buffy of his infatuation.
This leads to a terse debate over the nature of morality. "Angel's
different. He has a soul," Buffy says. "Spike has a
chip," Dawn retorts. "Same dif."
Does Dawn have a soul? This question was brought up in a fairly
recent thread (vampire hunter D's "fate of the key,"
7/11) with convincing arguments on both sides. Marie reasoned:
"They were monks, after all, presumably with some sort of
religion and god (by that I mean not necessarily our God - whoever
or whatever He may be to any of us), so above all they would think
of giving their new little human not only physical protection
(Buffy), but afterlife protection." But Greta countered with
an equally compelling point: "(M)aybe the question is COULD
they give her a soul?....we don't know if it's possible to create
a soul out of thin air or even out of pure energy."
Rufus took a different tack: "Does it matter if she has a
soul? The soul as Joss has defined it sure is no guarantee of
good behavior...To me it matters little how she started and if
she has a soul, her actions are what counts."
Her actions prompt a question of my own: Is Dawn an atheist? I
don't mean that critically. It'd be a fascinating irony if someone
made via elaborate spiritual/mystical means doesn't believe in
a Creator. Starting with Crush, I began to entertain the idea
that she has become Joss's mouthpiece. This struck me again a
couple eps later, in The Body.
For my money, the two best scenes in The Body both involve kid
sis. The first, of course, is the gut-wrenching sequence in school
that begins with Dawn in tears at being called a "freak"
by a bully and ends with her having a breakdown over Buffy's bad
news. The second is the climactic moment in the morgue. Dawn has
been determined to see Joyce, and now that she does she still
can't accept that her mother is dead:
DAWN: Is she cold?
BUFFY: It's not her. It's not her. She's gone.
DAWN: Where'd she go?
Good question. And not only Dawn's, I suspect, but Joss's as well.
***
Although no real answers are found in the follow-up, Forever,
Dawn's bonds with Buffy and Spike become stronger than ever. It's
interesting to see the Summers sisters' reactions to the tragedy:
while the older keeps a stiff upper lip, the younger is pro-active.
Feeling like "negative space" (the metaphor from the
art-class scene in The Body), she wants her mother back at any
cost, even if it means another five-finger discount on Giles's
spell books and a fateful meeting with the uber-demon, Doc. Her
resolve holds until the climax, when she and Buffy seamlessly
trade places. Hearing zombie-Joyce's knock at the door reduces
Buffy to a childlike state ("Mommy?" she asks hopefully),
while Dawn becomes the strong one, tearing the photo and stopping
the spell.
Besides sharing an adventure with Spike, thereby deepening the
trust between them, Forever is also noteworthy for how Dawn's
obsession with raising Joyce inadvertently causes the first rift
we've seen between Willow and Tara pre-Tough Love. Tara insists
that resurrection has dark consequences. Willow, however, is obviously
more open to the subject and helps Dawn by covertly directing
her toward a spellbook without Tara's knowledge. Dawn can be a
divisive influence in the Buffyverse. The other characters are
always reacting to her, and their reactions have led them to reveal
themselves in surprising ways, at their best and worst.
***
I'm going to refrain from delving into The Gift, as the particulars
of that episode-the blood debate, the folding of the clothes,
the look between Dawn and Spike-have been hashed out quite a bit
already (though feel free to discuss them if anyone likes). Instead,
I will close by submitting that Dawn, for good or ill, has become
the Buffyverse's impetus for change.
Contact with the Key spurred Riley's emotional tailspin, precipitated
Willow's fascination with the dark(er) arts, forced Giles to realize
the evil he will do for a noble cause. By the same token, Xander
matured before our eyes, Spike showed reservoirs of virtue that
seemed to astonish even himself, and Tara made a great sacrifice,
topped only by Buffy's ultimate love-offering. Buffy's gift to
Dawn was momentous, but we shouldn't undervalue the gift Dawn
gave her in return: a sister to love, a person to care about just
as she was becoming a terminatrix, hard and unfeeling. "Dawn
allowed Buffy to reconnect with humanity and the people she saves,"
Kerri wrote in a 7/22 post. "Because of Dawn, Buffy realized
why being the slayer was so important. She realized that people
are good and worth saving."
As Glory might say, it depends how you look at it. But I believe
that Dawn can be great. She can be anything she wants to be. She's
got the goods, she has the right genes. She is, after all, Buffystuff.
***
--mm
8/1/01
All script dialogue adapted from my tapes and/or (natch) Psyche's
site.
All quotes, unless stated otherwise, from ATPoBtVS. Many thanks
to my fellow posters for their amazing insights, and for deepening
my appreciation of an already great show.
All errors are mine. (Sinus headache...*throbbing*...must lie
down now. :)
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[> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party --
dan, 15:39:37 08/01/01 Wed
BIG congratulations on this posting: extremely well done, and
a really enjoyable essay!
I'd like to just add that Dawn has been (and will continue to
be) a catalyst for change in the Buffyverse on a *variety* of
levels. You've pointed out that she's caused characters to change,
and precipitated events. So, okay, she's caused emotional change,
and physical/historical change. But there's a third aspect to
changes that she's caused, and that's the changes of intellect/spirit/perception.
I submit that Dawn has begun an intense reexamination on the part
of the Scooby Gang (and BtVS viewers) of basic ideas that may
have held since the beginning of the show. What's struck me about
this season is that more than ever before, everything we already
knew was... well, not wrong, but *outdated*. Too simplistic.
For example, the existence of Dawn (and subsequent comments she
has made) have prompted much thinking on what souls are (and are
they necessary in order to be good), the ideas of nature/temperament/virtue/sin,
the meaning of family bonds, etc. Dawn is going to act as the
primary "ambassador" of Spike to the scoobies now that
Buffy's dead, and force them to truly realize that Spike has changed.
She's also already caused them to question the nature of reality
and worth.
WILLOW: I can't believe that Dawn's not real!
TARA: No, she is real. She's just new.
Dawn also forced a change to the ethics and sophistication of
the scoobies. I was pondering why going with the utilitarian answer
(and killing Angel) for "Becoming" was okay, but killing
Dawn was not. It hit me that the reason that killing Dawn was
so unacceptable was because killing Dawn meant buying into a false
dichotomy. Very rarely do we face *true* Sophie's Choices in our
lives, where we face two and only two equally untenable alternatives.
Buffy's maturing and apotheosis in handling this dilemma came
from the moment where she stepped back from the problem, thought
outside the terms in which her dilemma had been delineated, and
then understanding and acting upon the third option she had.
Dawn is going to continue to change the Buffyverse, and continue
to push the scoobies towards ever richer understandings of the
world around them. i'm betting this is why buffy turns out to
be the last slayer for several hundred years.
-dan
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[> [> Re: Ambassador Dawn -- mundusmundi, 05:33:14 08/02/01
Thu
I really like your point here:
I submit that Dawn has begun an intense reexamination on the part
of the Scooby Gang (and BtVS viewers) of basic ideas that may
have held since the beginning of the show. What's struck me about
this season is that more than ever before, everything we already
knew was... well, not wrong, but *outdated*. Too simplistic.
I regularly have debates with a colleague over this. He likes
the show but has been bothered by the changes of this past season.
Most TV series, IMO, are annoyingly static. I got tired of Fleischman
on Northern Exposure end every episode by having a newfound respect
for his town, only to start the very next episode by hating the
damn town again! I've always liked how the characters on Buffy
remember things (except the Dagon Sphere, grrr). Memory is the
key to change. Maybe that's why Dawn seemed so naive (for lack
of a better word) in Real Me, because her memories weren't real.
It wasn't until she started living --started building her own
memories -- that she began to grow. (Miracle if this makes sense.
I'm still sleepy-boy. :)
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[> [> [> Re: Ambassador Dawn -- dan, 07:38:50 08/02/01
Thu
Memory is the key to change. Maybe that's why Dawn seemed so naive
(for lack of a better word) in Real Me, because her memories weren't
real. It wasn't until she started living --started building her
own memories -- that she began to grow.
That naivete is the reason that Dawn has forced a rereckoning
on the part of the Scoobies about metaphysics and ethics, etc.
She was new enough to the the system that she asked questions
and didn't accept everything as set in stone.
-dan
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[> [> [> Re: Ambassador Dawn -- vampire hunter D, 12:46:53
08/02/01 Thu
What do you need a miracle for? It made perfect sense to me.
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[> Dawn-Haunted World -- Cactus Watcher, 16:27:58 08/01/01
Wed
I enjoyed your idea that Dawn is a catalyst for the rift between
Willow and Tara. The seeds seem to have been there before. Tara
was frequently dismayed at how shabbily Willow was treating Anya.
We have discussed the differences between Willow and Tara's approach
to magic before. Dawn has much of Willow's early curiosity about
magic. How much Dawn should learn at this stage is a major point
of contention.
Another point you brought up is that from the very beginning Dawn
has been very human, not just getting on Buffy's nerves, but doing
a very normal amount of risky behavior typical of young teens.
It bothers me that Glory insisted that the Key had to be pure.
Clearly, Dawn with her faults isn't pure. But she's a normal acting
human even if she isn't just human.
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[> [> Re: Dawn-Haunted World -- LadyStarlight, 20:04:00
08/01/01 Wed
It bothers me that Glory insisted that the Key had to be pure.
Clearly, Dawn with her faults isn't pure.
Well, there's pure and then there's PURE. Pure as in the sexual
sense, virginal; or pure as in the holy sense. Also, Dawn's faults
aren't major-league ones. Which would let Spike out on all counts!
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[> [> [> Good point. I'm thinkin' too narrowly. -- Cactus
Watcher, 21:02:25 08/01/01 Wed
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[> Re: Sinus headache...*throbbing*...must lie down now. :)
-- OnM, 21:32:04 08/01/01 Wed
Great post! Harder than it looks to do these, isn't it? (~grins~)
Your observation about Dawn possibly being/becoming Joss's 'mouthpiece'
is interesting, and may indeed
have some relevancy. I tend to think that if the show continues
it's success in the next two seasons, that
Dawn will increasingly become more and more of a focal point of
the show, which I have no problem with.
We have already seen (and I commented on several months ago) that
Buffy has become Joyce, and thus
Dawn will become Buffy. This also fits with Joss's comment that
S6 will be about 'growing up, already'.
No other deep and pithy comments tonight, it's been a busy day
for me and I'm getting tiredish, but I think
that on an acting level, Trachtenberg may very well end up with
doing what Marsters has done, which is to
virtually steal every scene that s/he is in. It continues to impress
me just how talented and professional
someone can be for such a tender age.
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[> [> Re: feelin' better :) -- mundusmundi, 05:50:47 08/02/01
Thu
It's hot, it's sticky, and the evil allergens (how's that for
a Big Bad?) are out in force! But reading all the kind words here
is bucking me up. Anyway, your comments:
We have already seen (and I commented on several months ago) that
Buffy has become Joyce, and thus
Dawn will become Buffy.
It is amazing how Buffy became Joyce -- as Hemingway would say,
"gradually and then suddenly." I was really struck by
a line that got cut from The Gift where she explains that Dawn
is both her daughter and her sister (which weirdly resembles a
line from Chinatown). And of course Joss has hinted that Dawn
will become even more the "bitty Buffy." But do we really
want her to be? I don't have a problem with her getting more screen
time, either. My question is whether she should become another
Slayer or find her own path. I leave it to the floor....
I think that on an acting level, Trachtenberg may very well end
up with doing what Marsters has done, which is to
virtually steal every scene that s/he is in. It continues to impress
me just how talented and professional
someone can be for such a tender age.
She certainly makes it easier on the writers, who know they don't
have to write her any big speeches, she can communicate so much
feeling w/out words. (A friend recently said she has the most
expressive eyebrows this side of Jack Nicholson.) I'll bet the
farm that one day she is going to be a very big star.
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[> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party --
Tanker, 23:28:52 08/01/01 Wed
I mentioned on BAPS that I don't post here much because y'all
intimidate me. Rufus asked why. This is why. :-) I couldn't have
written something that good in a million years. Great job.
Oh, and the PTC can go soak their heads. "Lowbrow entertainment"
my foot.
-- Mike Zeares
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[> [> Oh good you have come to talk to us............ --
Rufus, 23:34:12 08/01/01 Wed
Perfection is something that doesn't exist. I have read your posts
and have enjoyed them stick around you may think of something
none of us has. Just start posting and we will answer. You could
become addicted...or worse a CDCW.....:):):)
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[> [> You'd be amazed what you can start to do after you've
hung out at this place for awhile... -- OnM, 06:11:17 08/02/01
Thu
You can gain insights and abilities that you really didn't think
you had. The best way to get smarter is to hang out with other
smart people, and there's a whole great big bunch 'o them here.
Why don't you take up one of the remaining characters and do a
post for us? One of the villians, say? Pick someone who resonates
for you as a character and go for it.
'Fortune favors the brave...'
;)
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[> [> Oh Mike, getting over that fear was a good day for
me! Stick around! -- Liquidram, 22:13:08 08/02/01 Thu
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[> Great post..........The Key is the link......:):):) -- Rufus,
23:47:46 08/01/01 Wed
The key is the link...to what? And is it only the link to one
thing? I just love the idea of neutral energy being moulded, pressed
into human form. In this human form the Key has forged a new link.....that
to humanity. The key as Dawn is now aware, where there was only
the light of energy now comes the light that caused so much love
in Buffy. To watch a young girl go from writing about her sister
in a diary to finding out she is only six months old in human
form has to be a real mind twister. I look at what the monks did
as moulding not only a form but making it sentient, able to feel.
Dawn is able to interact with the very humans that would be destroyed
by her use as the key. Dawn is new, in a sense a baby, one that
has to grow into her emotions. She has had to learn in six months
what took a normal child fourteen years. The monks helped her
along by giving her and everyone around her memories of a life
never lived. As soon as Buffy found out Dawn wasn't real she went
from anger....to understanding and compassion for her unreal sister.
Those feelings and the relationship that grew in real time made
Buffy unable to see Dawn as anything but part of her. A part she
wanted to live and remain her sister forever. Dawn went from pest
to precious. Joyce accepted her and told Buffy to "love Dawn
like I love you" and for Buffy (who has a soul full of love)
it wasn't hard. My favorite scene was when Dawn realizing that
the world could end didn't miss a beat and started to run to prevent
the end of the world. Dawn went from the unreal sister to the
"real me" in that moment. Dawn learned from her sister,
and the memories she had of her mother, Joyce, to see the world
she could for the first time interact with as precious. The Key
is the Link, the link to Buffys heart.
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[> [> Re: Great post from you too -- Mike, 04:03:21 08/02/01
Thu
this kind of answers that BIG BIG question of WHY the Monks made
the Key human.
They themselves wanted to harness the power of the key for good.
So they chose to place the key in human form, which on it's own
gives it that possibility (of either being extremely good, or
I guess also extremely bad, or a mixture both)..
But by placing the Key with Buffy and her family and Scoobs, the
Monks ensured that the Key would be:
A) protected
B) guided (and so affected) by the Slayer who is innately good
(I just KNOW someone's gonna disagree with that!)
C) surrounded (and so affected) by the Slayers family and Scoobs
who support Buffy's fight against vil and provide a tighly knit
environment of good and love
see, it's ALL GOOD! Just like the Key now. I think. er... :)
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[> [> Re: The Key is the link -- mundusmundi, 06:04:28 08/02/01
Thu
In this human form the Key has forged a new link.....that to humanity.
You hit on something I was trying to say, and which ties into
something dan put in his post above: that the Key seems to opening
up all the characters in all sorts of interesting ways, expanding
on Joss's recurring themes while taking them in new directions.
Should be interesting to see what other doors are opened this
season.
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[> [> [> Re: The Key is the link -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
11:05:13 08/02/01 Thu
Great original post and discussion, everyone!
Perhaps, given the vast changes in the characters in this season
and the proposed theme of the next, the Key can be seen as the
link between adolescence and adulthood. The Scoobies are revealing
themselves more because they are having to deal with things that
change their worldview, just as they changed the worldview of
their parents in the first four seasons.
Hang on, this doesn't sound very convincing...they had to deal
with some pretty incredible stuff in the past as well.
However, Dawn is very different. In the first season, when they
discovered the existence of vampires, their opinions were still
fairly maleable. Besides, vampires were everywhere in Sunnydale
(the fact that others were so oblivious was meant to represent
the feeling that they didn't understand more than anything else
- please don't pick me up on that, it's a whole 'nother post).
At the beginning of season 5, though, they are secure in their
ideas (complacent?) - this is a bad thing to be in the Jossverse.
So then Dawn comes along and they discover that there is something
fundamentally wrong in the centre of their understanding of the
world around them. It is much harder to cope with this from a
position of relative comfort than from the places the characters
were all at in WTTH (they were all pretty unhappy with themselves).
As a result of this, their reactions now say more about their
characters and also about how happy they are (Riley, Willow and
Giles came off the worst - they were the least content at the
beginning of the season).
Oh, dear...digression much? Anyway, I agree that the Key is opening
up the characters a bit more.
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[> [> [> [> I'm not sure... -- Kerri, 11:39:07 08/02/01
Thu
"At the beginning of season 5, though, they are secure in
their ideas "
I don't know. Buffy didn't seem to secure with who she was. She
wanted to learn more. She was beginning a journey to rediscover
herself. Dawn fit into that discovery perfectly.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure... -- Rufus, 13:01:04
08/02/01 Thu
Look at both characters at the beginning of season five. Buffy
had become insecure about the control of her powers and her confidence
took a dive when that vamp got her in FFL. Dawn started the season
hiding behind everyone, frightened of everything. As the season
goes on both characters find a new confidence. The way Dawn spoke
to Glory in the last episodes is far different than the girl we
first met. Both characters were on a journey of a sort, Buffy
on her hero's journey, and Dawn a catalyst that helped move her
on to her next stage of the hero's journey. Both learned that
they could be more than they thought earlier in the season. Buffy
isn't just a killer as she feared, and Dawn became the "Real
Me" realizing her potential as a human.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure... -- Kerri,
13:24:07 08/02/01 Thu
It was interesting to watch the parallel journeys of Buffy and
Dawn. Both on a search for their identity. The two change and
cause change in their sister as well. They help the other to grow.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes - Buffy would not
have been able to develop as she has without Dawn -- Lurker Becoming
Restless, 14:20:54 08/02/01 Thu
And just to clarify, I don't mean that the scoobies were becoming
self-satisfied and lazy - just that things had plateaued a little.
And the period I'm talking about is from the end of Restless to
when Dawn arrives: about halfway through BvsD. This means up until
she starts looking into the past - not when she does so.
Perhaps it makes more sense if you know that I buy into the whole
'the monks made Dracula' thing and that I take his appearance
to be the first major non-Dream effort to unsettle a previously
safe Buffy.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes - Buffy
would not have been able to develop as she has without Dawn --
mundusmundi, 16:32:10 08/02/01 Thu
Perhaps it makes more sense if you know that I buy into the whole
'the monks made Dracula' thing and that I take his appearance
to be the first major non-Dream effort to unsettle a previously
safe Buffy.
Guess that's why I wish the monks had been Rumanian. Would've
added some weight to that idea, which I like. I also wish there'd
been an episode last season that introduced the monks to Buffy
-- had her save the life of one of them or something. That also
would've resonated in a big way once she found out who was behind
the mystical care package she received this year.
That said, and tying into a thread I believe d'Herblay started
a few days ago, what does everyone think of the possibility that
the SG's newly added "memories" of Dawn spurred some
of their changes this season? Does Dawn even really factor into
those memories, or was she always in the background of past events?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dawn--dragon
of Eden -- d'Herblay, 20:54:42 08/02/01 Thu
(Ok, I was looking for the Buffy in the Garden of Eden posts that
I half remember from the period just before I delurked so I could
justify using this subject line--I really just wanted to keep
the Sagan theme going--and I came across [on page five, now] Dedalus's
post "Oil is the lifeblood of your car!" When I get
to the line: "I just see Dawn as a Chevrolet Cavalier,"
I start laughing so hard my laptop shakes. So I'm a little oxygen-deprived
at the moment.)
When I started the "Where was Dawn?" thread, I was just
looking for a little harmless fun. But then I started wondering,
how could the presence of Dawn have not affected the events of
Buffy's life prior to "Real Me." I am struck by mundusmundi's
(mundimundi?) observation that the monk-implanted memories were
generic, and obviously no memory could have conflicted with the
reality we know--no one would remember Dawn doing anything that
got Buffy killed back in 1999, for example.
(If the animated series includes Dawn, as I think it will, then
all this is out the window, and memories exist of Dawn playing
a significant role in pre-Glory Sunnydale. Of course, I may later
decide that the animated series isn't canonical.)
I think that Xander remembered Dawn having a crush on him for
long before the events of "Real Me." I think this may
have engendered some of his new-found self-confidence. At the
end of S4, he thought that his two best friends didn't respect
him, and that his relationship with his girlfriend was going nowhere.
The unconditional admiration of even a thirteen-year-old girl
must have provided him with some solace. Plus, he seemed really
shaken in "Crush," when he finds out that Dawn's admiration
has transferred to Spike. "It's always been me. Big funny
Xander. And then she just suddenly decides I'm not the cool one
anymore? Why is that okay?" (From the shooting script.)
I was planning to play with Frank Sulloway's theory that birth-order
determines aspects of a personality, that first-borns are somehow
different from only-childs. Wisewoman beat me to it, and she's
right, there's not much there.
But I rented "The Witch"/"Never Kill a Boy . .
. " the other night, and in watching the early interactions
between Joyce and Buffy, I couldn't help but wonder: it might
be easy for Joyce to pack up her life and move to Sunnydale entirely
to support Buffy, but would she have moved a ten-year-old girl
away from her school and her friends and her father just because
her older daughter had gotten into trouble? If Dawn had really
existed, Buffy might never have gone to Sunnydale and instead
been put in military school. (She would have done well there,
except for that distrust of authority thing.)
In related speculation, does Dawn harbor any resentment towards
Buffy for being forced to leave her friends in L.A.? Would she
still hold a grudge because of a slight that never actually happened?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Dawn--dragon of Eden -- Rufus, 00:30:11 08/03/01 Fri
If you believe the basis of the grudge is real...why not? But
Dawn would have been about nine years old and with the personality
I could see in the earlier eps. like "Real Me" she would
have been more focused on her mother, so where mom goes so does
Dawn.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Where was Dawn Redux? -- mm (i.e., mundusmundi), 06:36:09 08/03/01
Fri
When I started the "Where was Dawn?" thread, I was just
looking for a little harmless fun. But then I started wondering,
how could the presence of Dawn have not affected the events of
Buffy's life prior to "Real Me." I am struck by mundusmundi's
(mundimundi?) observation that the monk-implanted memories were
generic, and obviously no memory could have conflicted with the
reality we know--no one would remember Dawn doing anything that
got Buffy killed back in 1999, for example.
I was glad when you started that thread, since I was already head-long
into researching my Dawn post and was puzzling over how (theoretically)
she could affect the SG without altering their memories in such
a way that it affected past events. Assuming the monks wouldn't
want to screw with history too much, perhaps they create a kind
of "cloak" around Dawn, so that she was there but not
able to influence the scheme of things.
On the other hand, I think your point on Xander is right on. That
he was still a "butt-monkey" in BvD and started maturing
(it seems) in Real Me makes it plausible that his memories of
Dawn gave him an ego boost (as if making hot sweaty monkey love
with Anya weren't enough). Still, it makes me wonder: would a
more confident Xander have altered any events in B4 than the confidence-shaken
one we already know?
Sorry, just saw the new Planet of the Apes the other day, and
my brain's still buzzing from the ending.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Memories of Dawn -- Kerri, 07:00:10 08/03/01 Fri
"I was glad when you started that thread, since I was already
head-long into researching my Dawn post and was puzzling over
how (theoretically) she could affect the SG without altering their
memories in such a way that it affected past events. "
Ok-I've been thinking about this a bit for a while. Events seem
like something the monks could deal with not changing.
But how about the effect Dawn would have on people. The people
we know shape who we are. Having a little sister, it seems, would
have changed who Buffy was. Dawn was a huge part of Buffy's life
and perhaps had the memories been real she would have developed
differently. So the changes that were induced by Dawn within other
people could have begun to take place after she was created.
From "The Real Me":
RILEY: Uh-uh. Back to what I was saying before we were rudely
attacked by nothing. You seem really tense.
BUFFY: (shrugs) Yeah, there's a new vampire gang in town.
RILEY: I mean domestically tense. You're on Dawn's case a lot.
BUFFY: I guess. It's just... (sighs) I don't know, it ... I know
it's always been this way. She's the baby. But for some reason
lately, it's just really getting to me. She's *always* around.
RILEY: Well, yeah. You're like her idol, Buffy.
Buffy is bothered by having this little sister around. She knows
becasue of the memories that it has always been this way. But
somehow it feels different.
Dawn becomes more real to the scoobies, to Buffy, and to the audience
as she begins to develope as a character. As the season progresses
Dawn begins to bond with Buffy, to become more her sister, because
she is real now, she does things and their results are not just
remembered but felt.
I'm not sure about everyone else but in the beginning of the season
I didn't like Dawn that much. She was ok but she was just the
bratty kid sister. I started to like her a bit more when Joyce
got sick-she grew and the dynamic between her and Buffy was more
loving, more interesting. Because Dawn grew and changed, Buffy
grew and changed, making Dawn real since she had affected someone's
life. At this point I kind of wanted the scoobies to regain their
original memories. It seemed wrong of the monks to screw with
people's minds.
But as the season went on my oppinion started to change. After
Dawn found out she was the key she became one of my favorite characters.
Then in "Forever" Buffy and Dawn truely become sisters.
When Buffy breaks down in Dawn's arms that makes them really become
sisters. From that point on Buffy and Dawn's relationship changes;
Dawn is everything for Buffy. It's hard for the audience not to
love Dawn at this point.
In "The Gift" Dawn was willing to jump to save everyone.
She had changed and grown(to be very much like Buffy I might add).
She was real.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Memories of Dawn -- Tanker, 12:16:23 08/03/01 Fri
"It's hard for the audience not to love Dawn at this point."
The sheer number of people who were mad at Dawn's continued existance
would seem to argue otherwise.
Sorry, I've just read yet another long essay on the newsgroup
on why "The Gift" was crap, and the whole Dawn story
was crap, blah blah blah. And I try to construct a well-reasoned
argument, which I can't do to save my life, and end up using the
f-word within two posts. So I'm feeling just a bit frustrated.
Thank Joss for this board.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Reason............ -- Rufus, 15:55:50 08/03/01 Fri
On a NG......ha ha ha ha......reason is about as useful as a candle
in a forest fire. I know many people thought that The Gift was
crap and they are welcome to their opinion. I would like to see
them do better. It comes down to personal preferences and the
ones that don't like what they see are welcome to state an opinion
or even switch channels. I loved The Gift. Nothing will change
that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Defining Moment -- Rattletrap, 12:26:44 08/03/01 Fri
Good point Kerri,
Like you I didn't particularly care for Dawn early on, but she
grew on me pretty quickly (I can't help but wondering if that
was by the writers' design.)
For me, one of the defining moments in her growth seems to be
in "Listening to Fear," when the Queller demon falls
off the ceiling on top of Joyce. Rather than cowering or running
away, Dawn grabs a coat rack, puts her head down, and charges
the demon. She drives him out of the room before she screams for
help.
This seems to foreshadow the growing up that occurs through the
rest of S5. I would love to see more of _that_ Dawn for next year.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Memories of Dawn -- 2m's (mundusmundi), 13:34:13 08/03/01
Fri
But how about the effect Dawn would have on people. The people
we know shape who we are.
So true. To use the Superstar comparison again -- apologies if
this overlaps with anything written previously -- here's how I
see it:
*Jonathan's spell was used to make him the center of attention,
and an overt influence on the Buffyverse. Essentially, he was
playing god, and that's why the spell eventually broke down.
*In contrast, the monks' spell (and here we have men working for
God, it would seem), put Dawn on the periphery of Memory. I think
of it as a kind of "Where's Waldo" spell, in which Dawn
is there but not there. It's interesting that all her memories
seem "safe." There's nothing about her active involvement
in anything consequential with the SG. She knows Buffy's the Slayer,
but exactly what that means doesn't seem to register until the
end of Real Me and beyond. She remembers Buffy crying about Angel,
but that's about the extent of it. So I agree completely with
your conclusion....
...the changes that were induced by Dawn within other people could
have begun to take place after she was created.
Again, Xander. I buy LBR's theory that the "Key-crush"
may have restored some of his self-esteem. Maybe he has memories
of babysitting Dawn back in B4, and that relationship, and the
sense of responsibility he acquired from it, helped him along.
One of the funniest scenes of this past year was in Blood Ties,
when he brags to Giles about someone powerful and mystical like
Dawn taking a shine to him (actually, the funny part was Giles
rolling his eyes and walking away in disgust).
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> My theory! (I don't have many good ones, so I have
to hold on tight to the ones I do.) :) -- d'Herblay, 13:39:55
08/03/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Oops! 'Twas D'Herblay's theory all (and you've
always got good'uns. I read your stuff. :) -- mm, 13:49:03 08/03/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Aah! Ego-boo! -- d'Herblay, 13:50:46 08/03/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Dawn and Superstar........ -- Rufus, 16:20:10 08/03/01
Fri
Look at the motives for both the spell in Superstar and the creation
of Dawn. In Superstar you have a young man unfamiliar with magic
doing a spell that was for his own benefit, it backfired. In regards
to Dawn you have the Monks who are real pro's capable of bending
reality. They have devoted their life to finding a way to harness
the energy for the forces of light. That is hardly selfish as
they were working so save humanity not to do a selfish glamour
spell for themselves. The Monks believed so much in their work
that they were willing to die to finish what they had started
so long ago. I have always said how smart the monks were to mould
the key into human form. The transformation of Dawn into human
form changed the neutral key into a person who can understand
consequences. Both Buffy and Dawn were considered tools for the
use of others, with no choice of their own. Buffy became independant
of the Council and Dawn made the choice to jump into the portal
only to be stopped by her sister. This storyline has shown us
just how powerful love can be. May sound simple to some but love
is what motivated all the major choices this season. Love is what
brought Buffy to her gift and choice to sacrifice herself for
the world and her sister. Love is what Buffy thought she had lost
only to find out that it is what fills her soul. The act of slaying
may be dark but Buffy kills to preserve what she loves. Would
she have found this out if Dawn had never been in her life?
In Superstar the spell was created out of self love, the selfish
motives of one. The spell didn't work because the person doing
it was playing with forces he didn't understand. When the spell
ended people resented Jonathon because they had been used. In
the case of Dawn, Buffy resented her sister until she found out
the reason for her being. Dawn is a force of light, innocent,
full of love. Her actions in The Gift proved that the Monks sure
knew what they were doing.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Baseline reality regarding Dawn and Superstar........
-- Cleanthes, 08:04:10 08/04/01 Sat
In `The Replacement`, Willow easily restores the united Xander
because that reality more closely matches the way things are supposed
to be.
This bolsters your point, Rufus, about the differences between
the spell "creating" Dawn and the situation in `Superstar`.
The Superstar situation built a house of cards far from whatever
baseline "true" überPlatonic reality there is underlying
the dimensions.
Meanwhile, how can we say that the Key is *supposed* to be formless
energy? Is the key-as-formless-energy closer to this überPlatonic
reality underlying the various dimensions? I think not.
The Stoics believed that the universe had a swerve to it. [Umberto
Eco has written much about this in modern philosophy; I finished
his "Kant and the Platypus" over vacation, sorry for
the unnecessary digression, but maybe I'm suffering from the "just
read about this" syndrome.] This is sometimes referred to
as the tonos in the telos, or the tension that pulls events toward
the easiest channel in the flow of events.
Jonathon's spell pulled the tonos WAY off the mark(s) while the
monk's spell may even have moved the tonos CLOSER to the mark(s).
As a bit of formless energy, the key needed a sect of monks and
who knows what else to protect it. (and I like to think, for fun,
that the "holy grail" was actually the key -- but then,
that's just me because I love the medieval grail tales and I'm
a fan of Monty Python,too) Well, anyway, while the key didn't
have to be Dawn, it may well be that the Key-as-Dawn is now the
baseline reality.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Baseline reality regarding Dawn and
Superstar........ -- mundusmundi, 11:07:45 08/04/01 Sat
Jonathon's spell pulled the tonos WAY off the mark(s) while the
monk's spell may even have moved the tonos CLOSER to the mark(s).
Neat idea. Only semi-related to the subject, but does anyone know
what the predominant faith in Czechslovakia is -- Catholic, Eastern
Orthodox, or other? I'm idly wondering how the monks' spirituality
might fit into their philosophy regarding the Key, or if it's
related at all.
(and I like to think, for fun, that the "holy grail"
was actually the key -- but then, that's just me because I love
the medieval grail tales and I'm a fan of Monty Python,too)
"I say, we've found the Key! Now where's that bloody lock?"
;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Czech religion -- d'Herblay, 13:17:18
08/07/01 Tue
CZECH REPUBLIC--44% Roman Catholic, 6% Protestant, 12% other Christian
(I presume mostly Moravian), 38% other (I'm guessing a smattering
of Jews, a small number of Muslim immigrants, a few free-thinking
atheists in Prague, but mostly people compelled to atheism between
WWII and glasnost).
SLOVAKIA--80% Roman Catholic, 12% Protestant, 8% other.
Most of the heretical sects arising in the area during the medieval
period and the reformation held the intention of removing the
monks and returning the riches of the monasteries to the people.
Dagon is the name of a Phoenician god, of either grain or the
sea, depending on who's doing the scholarship. He is treated as
a demon in the Old Testament, as well as in my (NERD ALERT!!)
Monster Manual II.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> "Tonos in the telos" and what
it means to The Gift -- Rufus, 17:25:00 08/04/01 Sat
I'm glad you told me about these terms because it makes me think
of how the events in season five lead to Buffy's sacrifice.
Could you consider Buffy's sacrifice again the tonos in the telos?
If you consider the key and how Dawn became who she was causing
Buffy to do what she did? Was Buffys sacrifice a form of tension
that pulled events towards the easiest channel? Did Buffy in being
okay with her work understand at a sub level that Dawn was meant
to be a reality in this world, that it was necessary that Dawn
be a reality in this world. It would sure shake up the people
that consider Buffys actions of protecting Dawn more than just
selfish. I see that the Monks may have figured out what Dawns
reality and her form in that reality was meant to be. Sending
her to Buffy was sending her to the one person who could make
sure Dawn's place in the baseline reality.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: "Tonos in the telos"
and what it means to The Gift -- Cleanthes, 19:00:25 08/05/01
Sun
Rufus asks "Could you consider Buffy's sacrifice again the
tonos in the telos? If you consider the key and how Dawn became
who she was causing Buffy to do what she did? Was Buffys sacrifice
a form of tension that pulled events towards the easiest channel?
Did Buffy in being okay with her work understand at a sub level
that Dawn was meant to be a reality in this world, that it was
necessary that Dawn be a reality in this world.
Well, these are fascinating questions to me. This concept of swerve
or tonos pulling things towards the easiest (or most divine, actually)
channel in the telos rests on, well, teleology , and so, cause
and effect are somewhat reversed.
I'm willing to speculate that having this key to the dimensions
in existence as formless energy set up an unstable tension in
the telos because it threatened too many complications. So, it
was easy for the monks to change the key in certain ways. Maybe
enspelling the key into a bicycle pump would have been as easy
a form as Dawn, but, anyway, the creation of Dawn may well have
created a stronger baseline reality. The Monks knew what they
were doing, even if they didn't have access to the 100% perfect
solution. Okay, that was my initial point.
Once the Monks chose Dawn, the slayer's sister & true blood kin,
though, further relief of tension now depends on this choice.
Thus, if Dawn remains the key and her existence relied on Buffy
more than Buffy's existence relied on Dawn --- well, again it
may have been a far, far better thing for Buffy to have died than
Dawn, not for Buffy but for reality itself. Heck, Dawn's death
in `The Gift` might have reset the tension in the universe back
to however great it was when the key was formless energy or worse.
Buffy GAVE a gift; she did not extract a penalty, which she would
have had to do were she to do a selfish act, IMO.
Buffy may have understood this on the sub-level you mention AND,
it could undergird the prophecy and the visions of the First Slayer.
Where does she exist in the telos? Obviously outside of time somehow.
So, in order to give her prophetic advice, the First Slayer must
be able to "hear" the tones of various tonos choices.
(ooh, I'm making etymology puns, you just know I've been drinking,
don't you? :-) )
One final point while I'm thinking about this. "Fiat Lux"
are the very first words spoken by God the Father, according to
St. Jerome's Vulgate. Someone on BtVS has also used these words,
right? Maybe having her instrumental in Buffy's return will make
sense because she will tap the power of God the Mother or something
equally close to ironic Perseity. (something so simple that its
per se nature cannot be subjected to alterations or tensions)
http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/z3604.html
http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/z3606.html
Joss is the dunce, reincarnated, isn't he? And that's high praise,
I think.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Fiat Lux -- Rufus, 00:16:27
08/07/01 Tue
Out of darkness comes light...makes me think of Willows spell
"Fiat Lux". When Buffy sacrificed herself in The Gift
I think that she did the right thing the unselfish thing. Dawn
for whatever reason was meant to be in our reality as a person.
When Buffy died she went into the light of Dawn. Willow has created
light which I think is the first property needed for life to exist.
Buffy's death has again caused a "tonos in the telos"
situation in that Sunnydale, the Hellmouth is without a slayer.
I don't find it entirely selfish for Willow to bring Buffy back
to continue the work the slayer does. Buffy will be back because
the universal tension caused by her death has to be compensated
for. Without the Slayer there will be chaos and the battle between
good and evil may become uncomfortably real to the oblivious inhabitants
of Sunnydale. If it is Willow that summons Buffy back I won't
be upset, she has created light before. Where I see Buffy's state
of mind is explained by what I read about Heraclitus who compares
reality to the flow of a river......saying that...'one could not
step twice into the same river'. I think that Buffy would resist
'stepping into the same river twice', she has lived and has known
pain and suffering, to step back into the reality she once inhabited
when alive would be enough to make anyone long to remain where
they were in peace. But as the Slayer and the fact that Buffy
feels love for her friends and sister, she will stay to protect
those she wanted to live.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Baseline reality regarding Dawn and Superstar........
-- Cleanthes, 08:09:29 08/04/01 Sat
In `The Replacement`, Willow easily restores the united Xander
because that reality more closely matches the way things are supposed
to be.
This bolsters your point, Rufus, about the differences between
the spell "creating" Dawn and the situation in `Superstar`.
The Superstar situation built a house of cards far from whatever
baseline "true" überPlatonic reality there is underlying
the dimensions.
Meanwhile, how can we say that the Key is *supposed* to be formless
energy? Is the key-as-formless-energy closer to this überPlatonic
reality underlying the various dimensions? I think not.
The Stoics believed that the universe had a swerve to it. [Umberto
Eco has written much about this in modern philosophy; I finished
his "Kant and the Platypus" over vacation, sorry for
the unnecessary digression, but maybe I'm suffering from the "just
read about this" syndrome.] This is sometimes referred to
as the tonos in the telos, or the tension that pulls events toward
the easiest channel in the flow of events.
Jonathon's spell pulled the tonos WAY off the mark(s) while the
monk's spell may even have moved the tonos CLOSER to the mark(s).
As a bit of formless energy, the key needed a sect of monks and
who knows what else to protect it. (and I like to think, for fun,
that the "holy grail" was actually the key -- but then,
that's just me because I love the medieval grail tales and I'm
a fan of Monty Python,too) Well, anyway, while the key didn't
have to be Dawn, it may well be that the Key-as-Dawn is now the
baseline reality.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Memories of Dawn--Pure Green Dot -- d'Herblay,
17:56:39 08/03/01 Fri
(Still going with the Sagan theme. Got one more . . . )
To use the Superstar comparison again [ . . . ] here's how I see
it:
*Jonathan's spell was used to make him the center of attention,
and an overt influence on the Buffyverse. Essentially, he was
playing god, and that's why the spell eventually broke down.
*In contrast, the monks' spell (and here we have men working for
God, it would seem), put Dawn on the periphery of Memory. I think
of it as a kind of "Where's Waldo" spell, in which Dawn
is there but not there. It's interesting that all her memories
seem "safe." There's nothing about her active involvement
in anything consequential with the SG.
The central difference between Jonathan's and the Monks' spells
is, you're right, their motivations. While Jonathan wanted to
be noticed, the Monks wanted the Key to be anything but. At the
moment of "Real Me," Spike, for example, would have
been recruitable by any new Big Bad promissing a de-chipping.
It would have behooved the monks to make sure that Spike's memories
of Dawn were indistinct and insignificant.
I'm betting, however, that Joss will somehow contradict this line
of reasoning in the future. I think that were Faith or Oz to return
to Sunnydale, she/he would have specific, significant memories
of Dawn. Cordelia wouldn't--not because the Monks didn't plant
them, but because she's Cordelia, homerically and hermetically
insensitive. I just think that the writers will not be able to
resist expanding on Dawn's (fictional) backstory. It's just too
much fun.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Bully for Buffysaurus! -- mundusmundi, 06:02:34
08/04/01 Sat
(First Sagan, now Gould. Confound it!....)
While Jonathan wanted to be noticed, the Monks wanted the Key
to be anything but.
Excellent point.
I'm betting, however, that Joss will somehow contradict this line
of reasoning in the future.
I'd be disappointed if he didn't. I've been hoping for some "fake
flashbacks" that would replay famous scenes from earlier
eps with Dawn in 'em. However, this might be kind of difficult
now with the no-crossover zone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Bully for Buffysaurus! -- d'Herblay,
16:15:54 08/04/01 Sat
Gould, now? How far can we take this?
"Ever Since Dawn"--which pretty well describes this
thread.
"Dawn's Little Piggies"--one of the more indelible sights
in "The Gift."
How about Dawkins?
"Climbing Mount Improbable"--will Joss's explanation
of Buffy's return satisfy?
"Unweaving the Rainbow"--the definitive investigation
of the Pylea arc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> LOL! There's always good stuff lurking
deep in the threads...;o) -- Wisewoman, 18:04:33 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> The Selfish Gene -- mm, 11:30:35
08/05/01 Sun
would seem an appropriate title for those who favor the Buffy
death-wish theory.
Back to Gould...The Slayer's Thumb. Unnecessary to hold a stake,
one of those freakish traits of evolution.
Crimeny, thought this thread was lost to the archives. How much
more juice can we shamelessly squeeze out of it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Must . . . keep . . . thread
. . . alive . . . -- d'Herblay, 13:39:41 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Memories of Dawn -- madie, 22:11:54 08/03/01 Fri
Wow. I just have to say that this version of Dawn is different
from what I gathered.
"I was glad when you started that thread, since I was already
head-long into researching my Dawn post and was puzzling over
how (theoretically) she could affect the SG without altering their
memories in such a way that it affected past events. "
"Ok-I've been thinking about this a bit for a while. Events
seem like something the monks could deal with not changing."
I would like to insert here that I thought that Dawn had stayed
with her Dad while Joyce and Buffy went to SunnyDale. I got that
sibling vibe off of Buffy and Dawn, especially when it came to
the invisible dad. I guess I must have just assumed that dawn
only visited on occation and was completely new to Sunnydale.
That's how the memories were a success, because she really wasn't
involved in anything important, because she wasn't there.
I also think that Buffy was more than jealous of Dawn being with
their dad, and then comming to sunnydale and loving up to Joyce.
It took Buffy time to regress back to the first stages of baby
hood to realize that her dad had actually failed them both, equally.
Then she was able to come out of it, get over her jealousy for
good, and let go of some of the anger towards her father.
I dunno. what do you guys think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> just for a quick laugh -- anom, 07:55:30 08/02/01 Thu
"...a few more bumps than usual on the Plot Hole Expressway."
Ah, the dreaded Plot Hole Pothole!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Great post, mm! -- Wisewoman, 18:22:13 08/02/01 Thu
Got me thinking about the "changes initiated in the SG owing
to Dawn's arrival" kinda thing. I can see where they've all
been affected, but I think that the major effect is, obviously,
on Buffy as others have pointed out.
But those implanted memories didn't just put Dawn on the scene
in episodes of Buffy's life--they effectively changed her from
an only child into a first-born, older sibling. Everything I've
read leads me to believe that those are two very different sets
of circumstances in which to grow up.
Think I'll go do some research in the birth-order literature and
see what I can come up with...
Thanks for a thought-provoking profile of the newest SG.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Effect of Birth Order on Buffy -- Wisewoman, 18:41:08
08/02/01 Thu
Hmmm, may not have had as big an influence as I thought...a quick-and-dirty
search yielded this:
FIRSTBORN · Characteristics: Tends to walk and talk earlier.
More serious, responsible and loyal to parents' values and standards.
May be a perfectionist; highly critical of himself or herself
or others. Dominant, assertive and conscientious. An expert procrastinator,
which counterbalances perfectionist tendencies. A natural high
achiever. Scholarly, logical, goal-oriented and status-conscious.
Well-organized; neurotic. Accepts authority, supports law and
order and is inclined to be a conservative. Attracted to high-achievement
occupations. · Career Track: Doctors, lawyers, industry
leaders, journalists, engineers, accountants, architects, executive
secretaries, computer programmers and bookkeepers. · Famous
firstborns: Bill and Hillary Clinton, Ted Koppel, Peter Jennings,
Saddam Hussein, Oprah Winfrey.
ONLY CHILD · Characteristics: Tends to be a lot like firstborns.
High self-esteem, self-sufficient. Relates well to adults. Admirable
skills for entertaining himself or herself. Misses out in forming
bonds with siblings, practice at caring for a peer. Doesn't learn
about competition, compromise or cooperation until school-age.
· Careers: Choices similar to those of firstborns. ·
Famous only kids: Charles Manson, Drew Barrymore, Courtney Love,
Leonardo DiCaprio.
Buffy sure managed to learn about competition before Dawn arrived,
but she now has had the opportunity to form a bond with a sibling
as well, and she certainly did that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Effect of Birth Order on Buffy -- mm (i.e.,
mundusmundi), 06:10:15 08/03/01 Fri
ONLY CHILD · Characteristics: Tends to be a lot like firstborns.
High self-esteem, self-sufficient. Relates well to adults. Admirable
skills for entertaining himself or herself. Misses out in forming
bonds with siblings, practice at caring for a peer. Doesn't learn
about competition, compromise or cooperation until school-age
Why, that's me in a nutshell! ;)
But seriously, I always liked the metaphor of Dawn's mystical
intrusion in the BV reflecting a fairly typical sibling rivalry.
In Real Me, Buffy says, "It's always been this way. She's
the baby. But for some reason, lately, it's really bugging me."
Only later, of course, does Dawn change for Buffy...as Rufus said,
"from pest to precious."
P.S. Maybe the fact that I was an only child makes the whole Dawn/Key
thing seem so cool to me. That I didn't read any spoilers last
summer made it even more mind-blowing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> It's more than just birth order... --
Kerri, 07:10:48 08/03/01 Fri
Dawn is a huge influence in Buffy's life. I'm not going to get
into this again. Read my response in this same thread called "memories
of Dawn"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> all the only children -- anom, 09:48:56 08/03/01
Fri
Until S6, weren't almost all the characters only children? There's
no mention of Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Oz, or even Giles having
siblings. I couldn't tell if Oz had a family at all, except for
the cousin who bit him! Buffy had at least one cousin, too, but
the only one we know about died in a hospital as a child. Maybe
a cast full of only children keeps things simpler, but it seems
a little strange when you think about it.
Of course, then Tara showed up, trying to get *away* from her
family, & then there was Dawn (kinda literally, actually--she
just *was*, one day). But I think it was when Buffy was having
roommate trouble & Giles said it was a hard adjustment for an
only child that it first occurred to me that they all seemed to
be only children.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party --
Victor Infante, 13:39:44 08/03/01 Fri
Dawn, for good or ill, has become the Buffyverse's impetus for
change.
Hmm? Isn't that always been the defining trait of an era's temprament?
How adults react to children? Are they overprotected (the kids
who grew up in the Depression and WWII) or are they scarcely protected
at all (the kids who grew up in the adult-self-involved 1960s
and 1970s.) Consider the rampant "MUST! PROTECT! CHILDREN!"
climate these days, and consider Buffy's actions in "The
Gift." Very interesting cultural commentary, that I don't
believe would have played out the same 20 years ago.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Buffy 1969 -- Wisewoman, 18:08:23 08/03/01 Fri
"So, like, you gotta jump in there, kid? Bummer. Hey, if
that's your trip, man, I'm cool."
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Dawn: The 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party
-- squireboy, 23:42:45 08/03/01 Fri
Extremely interesting point and one of the few in the whole sound
and fury about Dawn that have had any effect on me.
(For me, if S5 is the plothole-pothole, road under construction
express, The Gift is road closed, detour, consider other forms
of transportation.)
squireboy
"we band of buggered"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Plothole! Where? I don't see a--*Screeeech!*
;) -- mundusmundi, 11:55:52 08/04/01 Sat
Slayer Origin -- VampRiley, 19:04:42 08/01/01 Wed
Saw this over at the TBC&S spoiler board:
---------------------------
Date Posted: 16:35:42 08/01/01 Wed
Author: bacchus68
Author Host/IP: h12-20-43-1.chubb.com / 12.20.43.1
Subject: Fray #3(hints to buffy's end and origin of 1st slayer)
I don't know how many people have picked up the fray comic written
by Joss but the latest issue out today puts out a cool amount
of info about buffy and the first slayer. Fray takes place in
the distant future:
paraphrasing what the comic said:
The first slayer was created by magic shaman to combat the first
vampires that appeared. The watchers are decendents of these shaman.
A slayer(buffy) wiped all of the demons out of earths existence.
It seems to imply that they were sent back to their own dimension(dawn's
dimensional portal thingy) It also said that the slayer had to
fight an ARMY of DEMONS (sounds like shades of adam).
Since this story is written by Joss I think it can be a good idea
where he plans on taking the series and explains a little where
the slayers power actually comes from.it was a power that the
shaman(watchers) placed in the body of a girl. I wonder if it
actually is an entity that was placed inside the slayers. a demon
to fight the demons, that would explain dracula's stating her
power is rooted in darkness.
This also explains the connection between watcher and slayer more.
The thing I don't like is it seems like the slayer line ends with
Buffy. He writes that there are other slayers that have the power
after buffy but since buffy literally removes all of the demons
from our reality the watchers don't contact them or train them
and they never even realize they are activated slayers.
I hope he changes his mind on that front because without demons
there is now way he can continue a slayer type show or any show
in the universe after buffy hangs it up.
Another thing that is added in the comic that is cool is the fate
of the watchers. Without a slayer to watch the ones that sit and
wait for the return of the demons go insane from the wait.
Well I thought I would just add info here from joss's writing
to see what people think about the connection and forshadowing
he said in the comic as it relates to the show.
bac.
-----------------------------------
Just wanted to know what y'all think about it.
VampRiley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> that power sounds a lot like the Key -- Wilder, 19:50:28
08/01/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Slayer/Vampire connection -- Kerri, 20:34:39 08/01/01 Wed
"I wonder if it actually is an entity that was placed inside
the slayers. a demon to fight the demons"
A demon inside a human-hummm...a lot like a vamp-just with a soul.
Sounds kind of like Angel to me. A simular situation in that there
is something inside that influences the slayer. It comes down
to which is stronger the girl or the demon inside her. How much
of Buffy is the primal slayer?-that depends-how much does she
let herself be that demon. Who is in control?
Also-just wondering....does it actually say something-like a time-that
implies that Buffy is the slayer who sends the demons back to
their dimention?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Slayer/Vampire connection -- Andy, 06:33:41 08/02/01
Thu
"Also-just wondering....does it actually say something-like
a time-that implies that Buffy is the slayer
who sends the demons back to their dimention?"
I believe the comic mentions "the early 21st century"
as the time that the demons were banished. There isn't anything
that explicitly says it's Buffy, since Joss can't directly show
Buffy (Fox owns her, Joss owns Fray), but it does seem heavily
implied to be her. The comic also mentions that this last slayer
was "possibly aided by mystical allies" in defeating
the army of demons.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Slayer/Vampire connection *SPOILERS* --
spotjon, 10:34:38 08/02/01 Thu
The comic doesn't specifically say the early 21st century, though
that's probably what Joss had in mind. There also may have been
a little hint that Dawn had a hand in sending them back, and that
she didn't meet with too kind of a fate, herself. It doesn't specifically
say whether or not the last slayer survived this battle, or died,
though she may have been sucked into hell at the end.
A little more specifically, there are two panels depicting the
final battle. One, a silohuetted female figure carrying weapons
faces an army of demons, both large and small. The narrative reads
something like "All we know is that in the 21st century a
slayer faced an army of demons, which were somehow totally banished
from our dimension. All demons, all magicks, gone forever."
Two, we see a portal closing, with a demony tentacle reaching
out, alongside of a human female hand (complete with long pink
fingernails). Narrative goes something like, "Concerning
the fate of the slayer we do not know, she may have died then
or lived for some time after." I don't know whether the hand
sticking out is supposed to be the slayer's, or if perhaps it
might be Dawn's, using her power to seal the dimensions. In any
case, one unlucky girl apparently ends up playing housemate with
a dimension full of mightily pissed-off demons.
I'll pull out the issue later tonight to find the correct dialogue.
I was just paraphrasing above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Slayer/Vampire connection *SPOILERS*
-- Andy, 13:23:43 08/02/01 Thu
"The comic doesn't specifically say the early 21st century,
though that's probably what Joss had in mind."
Ah, that's right. I must be conflating that with something else,
maybe the promotional material, because I do distinctly remember
it being said somewhere that it was early 21st century :)
The look of the silhouette also seems very Buffy, with the girl
clearly wearing a skirt. Joss does like those girly touches when
it comes to Buffy (like his complaining that SMG was supposed
to be wearing pink, not white, in The Gift) :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Joss is teasing us -- Tanker, 16:10:01
08/02/01 Thu
He's giving us little things, like a Slayer in a skirt, that make
us think it might be Buffy, but that aren't conclusive enough
to prove anything. Then he sits back and watches us go nuts trying
to make sense of it. :-)
-- MZ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Slayer Origin -- Mike, 03:47:21 08/02/01 Thu
Maybe "rooted in darkness" can mean no more than the
Slayer would not have been created (if indeed it were) if there
HAD been no darkness needing to be combatted? In a way, that suggests
that the Slayer owes it origins to the demons or vampires
for me, the origin of the slayer is THE BIGGEST unanswered, and
suspenseful issue, of the show
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Huge Fray *Spoilers* with implications and speculations
-- darrenK, 11:46:52 08/02/01 Thu
Um, Well everyone else seems to be kinda of sedate about these
spoilers, I think they're huge.
Joss has never more than hinted at the origin of the Slayer, and
there it is.
And even more interesting, the origin of the Watchers. They don't
just manage the Slayer, they created her. And they didn't begin
as a bunch of Oxford types, they were the most powerful shamans
among humans. They saved the human race and they did it by creating
the Slayer. It puts a whole new spin on their relationship with
her and why they seem to feel such ownership of her.
Even more interesting is that perhaps Faith is more true to the
conception of what a Slayer is than Buffy. That the Slayer is
a Hunter, akin to a wilding animal. Not thoughtful. Not philosophical.
Just wild, just a killer. It now makes sense that the Watchers
have a unit to bring down rogue slayers. Even the 18th birthday
test makes more sense: it's a test from a forgotten time, a barbaric
test to ensure that Slayer is smart as well as strong. Even the
distaste the other Watchers feel towards Giles makes more sense.
He cares about the slayer, yet the slayer is--in the Watcher's
estimation--just a tool.
And the biggest spoiler of all is that those people who speculated--on
this board--that the whole series would end with Buffy and Dawn
sealing away the Demons behind a dimensional door SEEMS to be
correct.
Yes, maybe the comic didn't say Buffy, it said a Slayer in the
early 21st century, but come-on? What's Joss' life work? Not Faith
the Vampire Slayer. It's Buffy who has mystical allies--Dawn,
Willow, Tara, Anya, Angel, Cordelia (now a seer) and it looks
like it will all build toward what many of us hoped to see, a
grand blow-out. Joss has said that he wouldn't mind making movies
when the show ends. And of course the final apocalyse is worthy
of one.
And-my opinion- it also settles another question, the monks succeeded.The
Key will become pivotal in human form, a force for good. What
else did those few panels look like, but a key created dimension-door.
It makes Joss's purpose for Dawn even more easily understood,
she was not just sent to Buffy to be hidden from Glory, she was
sent as tool to complete the work of the Slayer. Permanantly.
dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> You're singing my song......I agree..... -- Rufus,
13:04:46 08/02/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Huge Fray *Spoilers* with implications and speculations
-- Liquidram, 13:22:13 08/02/01 Thu
"And the biggest spoiler of all is that those people who
speculated--on this board--that the whole series would end with
Buffy and Dawn sealing away the Demons behind a dimensional door
SEEMS to be correct. "
To take this discussion a step further, what would become of the
demons who are friends and/or part of the group? (Our vamps, Anya,
etc.?) Being demons and/or new humans, how would they be affected?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Happy ending? -- Kerri, 13:27:38 08/02/01 Thu
I'm a sucker for happy endings. Yes I know Joss isn't a big fan
of them but I can hope right? This leaves it open for Buffy and
Angel to be together-Buffy no longer needs to protect the world
and Angel becomes human. :) Probably not but...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Happy ending? -- Andy, 06:24:57 08/03/01
Fri
It's a pleasant thought, but knowing Joss I'd wager that if that
is Buffy, then the way it would play out is that Angel becomes
human...only to see Buffy get sucked through the portal (her hand
being the one sticking out of it) :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Happy ending? -- darrenK, 09:32:55
08/03/01 Fri
That just means that SG has to go to Hell to get her.
They will. They're like that, you know.
Plus, if there are no demons on Earth, than Sunnydale becomes
Green Acres and there won't be much room for new Vampire Stories
so they'll have to do something to keep it all going. dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> possible *spoilers* concerning half-demons --
spotjon, 14:55:16 08/02/01 Thu
I'm wondering if this ties in to the apocalypse talked about in
Angel, after which Angel is prophecied to regain his humanity.
My thought is that, as the Key sucks all of the demonic influence
out of our dimension, the demon part of Angel is also removed,
and thus his humanity restored. Anya wouldn't be affected since
she is no longer demon-y at all. Spike would most likely be sucked
into hell, though the human part of him might proceed to the afterlife,
while the demon part is being swept away. I just want to know
whose hand that is reaching out of the hell-portal in Fray.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> You can never be sure, though... -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
15:52:46 08/02/01 Thu
How about this: Faith is the one who gets rid of the demons after
Buffy and the Scoobies have realised that they need them after
all.
Lame, I know, but I just thought I'd put in a 'spoilers are hopeless
with Joss' kind of a post and spoil everyone's fun (kidding -
is there like a punctuation mark for sarcasm? And if not, why
not!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: You can never be sure, though... -- Tanker, 16:16:51
08/02/01 Thu
Or another Slayer entirely, late in the 21st century, who also
had mystical allies, because Buffy and Giles's example caused
a permanent change in the Watcher's attitude towards the Slayer
having friends. There's just no way to be sure that the Slayer
who defeats the demons is Buffy. Not yet, anyway.
-- MZ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: You can never be sure, though... -- darrenK,
09:51:16 08/03/01 Fri
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's going to be Buffy.
I'm going to go out on that limb because Joss is a storyteller
and for 5 years we've heard vague hints on both Angel and Buffy
to ultimate prophecies and final battles.
Joss is not about to end the Buffy/Angel story without an apocalypse
of a scale we haven't yet seen.
And when it happens I imagine that all our favorite characters
will be involved including Faith.
It's going to be something to see. dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Slayer Origin (and Promethea) -- Dedalus, 18:34:07 08/02/01
Thu
First off, thanks to the guys on my old Fray thread that recommended
Promethea. I've been buying up random issues all week, and good
lord ...
"I'm Promethea. There is nothing like me. I am the Holy Splendor
of the Imagination. I cannot be destroyed."
Goodness, Dedalus thought to himself, what have I got my hot little
hands on?
Anyway, those Fray spoilers were awesome. I knew we'd be getting
some major info down the line. That does totally jive with how
the Watchers see Slayers. I think the thing about the ancient
mages or whatever clearing the way for mortal animals was pretty
cool, too. I was wondering how humans ever got hold of this dimension
considering the proliferation of demons. Really, really big ones,
too. It's telling that the Powers did not create the Slayer. And
seeing how magic is sort of hereditary in Buffy, it makes sense
that the Watchers would try to keep it in the family as much as
possible.
Okay, so if this is just some magical force, is it like ... what?
Intelligent or something? How does it choose girls? The Watchers
don't seem to have much sayso in that department.
Anyway, yeah Joss. My only complaint is that the next issue of
Fray is not coming until OCTOBER!
As Spike would say, "BLOODY HELL!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Question about the slayer blood line -- Kerri, 07:18:21
08/03/01 Fri
So does this mean that after the watchers created the first slayer
the spirit or whatever that gives her power moves to the next
slayer after the previous slayer dies on its own. I mean it doesn't
seem like the watchers sent the power to each slayer. It seems
more like the power chose the girl.
Now if the power leaves the slayer after she dies then how come
both Buffy and Kendra were the slayer. Was Buffy perhaps not the
slayer after the master killed her. Is there something to the
"I feel strong. I feel different" comment?
Any ideas?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Question about the slayer blood line -- VampRiley,
09:37:23 08/03/01 Fri
My take on this is that if there is a force, it's a "living"
thing (maybe not "living" in the sense of being sentient;
maybe more like The Key's "living energy" or some other
type not thought of yet). It's independent from the Council since
they look for potential Slayers. If they did control it, then
they wouldn't be doing this. If there really is a force that goes
from girl to girl (chosen at random or not), I'm thinking that
this force only activates the dormant slayer abilities in each
girl thereby changing the girl. This force wouldn't act like a
Human soul (In Season 2, Angel loses his soul, turning him back
into the vamp he was before he got his soul back, his Humanity
is once again gone - not sure if this analogy makes sense). When
she dies, this force leaves her but doesn't deactivate her slayer
abilities and doesn't make her the girl she was before she was
called (Buffy still had her Slayer powers after being resuscitated
after the Master killed her). The force travels to the next girl,
wherever she is (Kendra and Faith) and starts the process all
over again. That's just my take on how there can be more than
one person with Slayer abilities.
Oh, Oh -- thought -- what if all the girls before they were slayers
actually didn't have dormant slayer powers and were just like
a normal Human. And this force acts in the same way that the "ritual"
(for lack of a better word) of turning a Human into a Vamp does
(being near death, drinking vamped blood, dying from blood loss
= VampNewbie). It's actually this force that goes "into"
the girl and without her realizing it, adds the powers of a slayer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Question about the slayer blood line --
Tanker, 12:02:38 08/03/01 Fri
There must be something about the girls who are destined to become
Slayers that the Watchers can identify. If they have dormant Slayer
powers, maybe that would make them stand out in a "locate
Slayer" spell.
If that's the case, though, the dormant powers must not stand
out too much, because Joss once said that Buffy was missed. She
apparently wasn't found until she became the Slayer. I bet, whether
she has dormant powers or not, that once a Slayer is activated
she looks like a beacon in a Slayer location spell.
I'm almost more interested in the proto-Slayers than the actual
Slayers. How many are there at any one time? How are they chosen?
Do they have any special abilities before they're called? How
do the Watchers find them? Is every potential Slayer destined
to become a Slayer, or can a girl "outgrow" it? Etc,
etc.
There is another thing to consider. Joss may be altering what
he's said in the past because he thought of something he liked
better.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> proto-Slayer speculation -- anom, 13:42:47
08/03/01 Fri
"I'm almost more interested in the proto-Slayers than the
actual Slayers. How many are there at any one time? How are they
chosen? Do they have any special abilities before they're called?
How do the Watchers find them? Is every potential Slayer destined
to become a Slayer, or can a girl "outgrow" it? Etc,
etc."
The "testing" of Slayers who survive to 18 implies that
they always start considerably younger than that, if just because
they'd need a good amount of training 1st. We know that Kendra
trained from a very young age--probably starting even before Buffy
was called. Don't know if that means she had special abilities
then. Buffy didn't seem to--remember, she'd been a cheerleader
in LA, which would have given her a good chance to discover any
out-of-the-ordinary athletic abilities. How many at one time--well,
it sure doesn't look like only one in all the world is *born*
in each generation, as we hear at the start of each ep. Unless
"born" is figurative & refers to the calling of the
Slayer...hmm, that might have implications for Buffy's "rebirth"....
There I go answering questions in reverse order again...this time
with "how funky is your chickennnn?" echoing in my head!
Is Suicide Selfish? -- Raelta, 22:12:53 08/01/01 Wed
I may be too far out of date to receive replies to this and I
may be slightly off subject on parts not being familiar with Buffy
but I will attempt to clearly state my opinion on the subject
question anyway.
Personally I believe that while sometimes suicide is selfish,
(i.e. when it's for causes such as making someone else feel bad
or getting back at someone) most of the time it isn't selfish.
Now I am taking this from the perspective of the person committing
suicide and not those left behind because I believe this is where
the real question lies. In this we must attempt to see the situation
from the point of view of this person. They are in so much pain
and anguish for whatever reason that life is not only something
they don't wish to continue, but something they actively and violently
wish to end. They wish it to end not to cause others pain or to
fulfill desires for retribution but to end their own pain and
suffering, and thus it is not selfish. This is my primary point.
To add to that however, often people who wish to commit suicide
genuinely see themselves as a truly bad person and so in their
view it is ridding the world of a taint and thus making it better.
In this way it could be seen as not only not selfish but in some
ways selfless. This is a stretch however and as it is not my primary
point I will leave it.
There is also another side. The side of the person left behind
in pain who feels suicide was a very selfish thing. Is this person
not being extraordinarily selfish themselves? To think that they
would wish upon the person they love for the continuing of the
tremendous pain that the suicidal person is experiencing. This
is like wishing for your friend to continue being tortured for
life. Admittedly there is the possibility for this person to continue
their life and have it improve and this may be what the friend
hopes for but the suicidal person does not see this. The suicidal
person has no hope for a happy ending any longer and thus continued
life is continued anguish and someone to wish them to live longer
is to curse them more terribly than anyone else ever could.
I would be more than happy to hear any replies to this, as this
is an argument I have been hoping to discuss with someone for
many months to see other ideas. Feel free to email me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Is Suicide Selfish? -- Rufus, 23:26:26 08/01/01 Wed
Suicide is an escape, but is it a valid escape? It depends on
the situation. I'm sure there are a few people who have killed
themselves to get even with someone, but it isn't always so simple.
Do we consider a terminally ill person in pain selfish to want
to die on their own terms? Can we ever understand the pain of
the depressed person who can only feel mental pain, enough pain
to wish to escape to nothingness? Each suicide originates under
different circumstances personal to the person who wishes to die.
The people who know the person who does this ultimate act of escape
will judge the action upon their beliefs and own state of mind.
I don't see suicide as selfish as much as desperate. Calling the
dead selfish is just a way of trying to understand that persons
last act. The dead are beyond our judgement or opinions.
Dreams -- Mike, 03:23:54 08/02/01 Thu
I thought it might be interesting for everyone to post what dreams
they have had about Buffy, Angel et al.
Not only that, it might be interesting for someone to ANALYSE
the dreams once we have posted them!
Yes, this thought is prompted by my own dream last night, which
was pretty freaky...
"I was flat hunting with a friend and we saw this lovely
appartment in central london where a strange old woman gave us
the chills, so even though we liked the flat we, left. Outside,
something had happened to London, as DEMONS were running around
wild... and they were all in the form of ALLIGATORS. They were
different sizes. Some were of Godzilla proportions - and it seemed
that the more people they ate, they larger they got. My friend
disappeared (ate). I took refuge in the foyer of this appartment
block, where we locked the doors and barricaded them with beer
barrels (?). There was a mirror, I looked in it and my face was
that of Bill Bixby's (??!).
The dream then kinda jumped to the next day..
The demons (alligators) were rampaging in London in part due to
me (though I dont know why, I just knew that) I went to see the
Host, who had a rather fishy blue scaly appearance with several
tentacles coming out his head (but in the dream he was still the
host)...
then the dream jumped again..
my girlfriend came to see me (and she was Brooke Adams from The
Dead Zone), and she was angry at me cos I had become a demon (Bill
Bixby's face with the blue scaly tentacles, cool!). But I had
done this to save the world, and the demon alligators were no
more...
SO, there u go, my Buffy-related dream last night (although evidently
it was more Angel-esque..)
OVER TO YOU!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dreams (possible spoiler) -- d'Herblay, 03:43:13 08/02/01
Thu
I had two Buffy dreams recently, one of which I don't discuss
in mixed company. The other one took place during the upcoming
musical episode. I was playing Spike (as I always do in my dreams),
and was part of a big production number with Buffy and Dawn. Sort
of one of those "Anchors Aweigh" numbers where you sing
and dance all over town, only instead of New York we were dancing
through Sunnydale. Sarah nailed the number, but I didn't know
the words and Michelle kept missing her steps. We just frantically
followed after Sarah.
Now I now longer dream about Buffy. Now I dream about this board.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Hmmmmmmm, what you dreamin about this board...spill..:):):)
-- Rufus, 13:06:41 08/02/01 Thu
I know, I know...dreams of fluffy kitties and chocolate...right???????:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dreams -- little wiggins, 04:07:50 08/02/01 Thu
This isn't a buffy dream, but it's a passions one which kinda
has an association to buffy. I had a dream that I was in a mac
cafe buying coffee for kay and charity and my own was a free small
cappanico.... Kay had a tall cappanico and charity had a turkish
coffee in one of my mum's regular sized smoky coloured see through
cups. We were standing in line and the cashier told me it was
$30. I looked through my purse/bag then at Kay and Charity and
told them I wasn't expecting it to be that much. And they just
looked back at me and then I woke up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Dreams -- Sil, 08:00:52 08/02/01 Thu
I find this both hilarious and eerie... what does that say about
me?! and it was your dream, wha does it say about you??!
More!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The Bill Bixby part is what gives me the wiggins. -- Solitude1056,
06:06:41 08/02/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Well, okay, so there was this dream last night...
-- Solitude1056, 06:35:32 08/02/01 Thu
Which, no surprise, starred Dawn throughout the dream, including
several scenes set at work. I think she was polishing her nails
with blue and orange nail polish while I was directing programmers
to stick their fingers in the company's wall to plug all holes
from nasty virii. That's about as much as I remember...
...but there was this dream I had last week or so, when I was
in the middle of heavy-duty code cleanup on the group story, and
trying to code several other fictionary independent pieces for
those authors. I had a dream where I couldn't talk to, or interact
with, anyone unless I checked the HTML code superimposed on either
side of them. And if I was missing an angle bracket or a closing
hyper marker, I'd get an error and not be able to continue with
the dream until I'd fixed it.
See, now THAT'S a sign I need (another) vacation!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Bill Bixby part is what gives me the wiggins.
-- Mike, 07:11:09 08/02/01 Thu
I'd like to think that the Bill Bixby part was subconsciously
arbitrary, and that I don't really have a fetish for old craggy
faces (no offence intended Sol!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dreams -- Tanker, 07:35:20 08/02/01 Thu
I'd love to participate in this thread, but the Buffy and Angel
dreams I've had lately were so disturbing that I'm afraid I will
freak people out for real. Let's just say that one included dismembered
corpses. Actually, I can't even remember what that one was about.
Just as well.
I do remember my first ever Buffy dream, a few years ago. I was
a generic bad guy, and Buffy beat me up. That's about it. She
was really sexy when she beat me up, though.
I'll just include one scene from the Angel dream I had yesterday,
which I'd really like to talk about, but it's like, NC-17. For
violence. Anyway, I was again a bad guy. I saw Angel in an alley
and approached him with the intent to kill and rob him. He saw
me coming, and grinned. Then he vamped. Then he *flew* through
the air in a graceful arc and landed next to me.
What happened next, without going into details, was that I "rewound"
the dream so that instead of Angel killing me, I was able to fight
him off. The dream became just lucid enough. I've had quite a
few dreams like that, where I'm about to be killed or something,
and I stop the dream and set it up so I win. This one just happened
to have Angel in it.
-- Mike (I'm NOT a violent person. I've been in exactly one fight
in my life, and am such a big crybaby that it's pathetic. I just
have violent dreams.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I believe you! -- Mike, 07:50:12 08/02/01 Thu
I really do. The mind has a habit of exploring things which we
bury so deep subconsciously that we don't even know it exists.
that's why sometimes we wake up and think "wow, what was
all THAT about!" In it's own way, the mind expressing that
is a release, so it never DOES become a conscious thought or action.
HEALTHY!!
I love it when dreams don't make any sense, though I cannot profess
to be any kind of expert on them, and what they mean.
I have to say i am thoroughly jealous you had a lucid experience
though. that has never happened to me :(((
This thread is fascinating so far. Sol, holiday now!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Dreams, in general... -- Wisewoman, 11:54:16 08/02/01 Thu
While I've never had a Buffy-related dream (that I remember) I
have had a couple that significantly impacted my life.
In my 30s I used to dream a lot about bears. Grizzly bears. And
being attacked by them. I remember one dream where I was in the
kitchen of my house, and I heard something at the back door and
I just knew it was a bear. So I stood there, kinda frozen with
fear, and the bear took a swipe at the door, broke right through
it and shoved it's head inside. The thing was, in the dream I
not only saw the bear, inches away from me, very clearly, saw
the yellow-ivory color of it's lower teeth, with grooves of a
nicotine color running through them, saw it's grey-pink tongue,
it's black, wet nose, small, amber-colored eyes, etc, etc, but
I felt the heat from it's body and fur, and I smelled both the
wild fur smell of it's body and the hot smell of it's breath.
It was absolutely the most vivid dream I've ever had. I had lots
of other dreams of bears, but not as three-dimensional as that
one. Eventually, I decided to take the bear as my "totem"
and started collecting images and statues of bears, and the dreams
stopped.
My understanding of dream interpretation is that everything in
the dream represents a part of yourself. If that's the case, then
the bear was a very powerful and scary part of myself that I wasn't
willing to face. Maybe by accepting the bear as a totem, I did
that...who knows?
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Speaking of dreams... -- Anthony8, 13:00:02 08/02/01 Thu
...remember that dream in 'Innocence' (?) where Buffy reaches
to grab Angel's hand just as he turns to ashes? When I was a kid,
about 5 or 6 at the time, I used to have a recurring dream that
I was on fire, and as I tried to run out into the hall of our
apartment to get help, my legs would turn to ashes underneath
me preventing me from advancing. Then the smoke and ashes would
choke the air so much that I couldn't make a sound. When I saw
the BtVS episode, that dream came back to mind so vividly.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Coupla of us recently performed a spell and summoned the
power of the First Poster ;) -- mundusmundi, 14:54:35 08/02/01
Thu
Nah. But I did recently dream I was helping Buffy, Xander and
Willow collect weapons for some vamp job. Guess that's better
than dreaming of opening a hardware store with Giles.
Queer As (Undead, Bloodsucking) Folk -- dan, 21:35:44 08/02/01
Thu
So I've been thinking lately about how I can divide up my friends,
relatives, and acquaintances into two camps:
1) Hip to Buffy
2) Not Hip to Buffy.
And i've realized that way more of the people that i know who
are into buffy are GLBT (gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered) as
compared to those people that i know who are not into buffy.
While I wouldn't call BtVS a 'gay show' (anymore than I would
call it a 'straight show'), I think that there is something about
the show that powerfully appeals to GLBT folks, and it does tap
into something that for lack of a better term I'll call a queer
sensibility.
(A note on terminology: as a young gay guy who's been out for
years, I feel comfortable in using "queer" as a blanket
term for GLBT folks. Why? Well, I'm not the world's biggest fan
of unwieldy acronyms, I like the inclusiveness of the word, and
I like the political charge it carries as a reclaimed insult.
I know that some people aren't crazy about the word. If you're
one of those, pretend I wrote "GLBT" everytime I use
the word "queer.")
Of course, the show's always been comfortable with putting in
queer subtext and text, from Larry the football player to the
sensual charge between Buffy and Faith. And of course, Willow
and Tara have been a huge draw for queer viewers. But I think
the show's draw for queer folks is more than just visibility.
I think that the show's grappling with issues of gender expectations,
notions of created "non-traditional" families, and the
many impacts that sex and sexuality can have upon life are all
themes that have a special charge for queer folk.
I also think that the show's curious mixing of tones (what other
show on television has made me laugh so hard, actually tear up,
AND powerfully freaked me out? Answer: none.) resonates in a way
for queer folks. It feels like the show taps into the rich heritage
of camp and puts its own spin on it.
ech. i think i'm too tired to write this post fully now. i'll
just send this misshappen missive out now and garner some feedback.
does all of this seem way off base?
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Queer As (Undead, Bloodsucking) Folk -- Wiccagrrl, 22:13:14
08/02/01 Thu
I think you may have a point. I hate generalizations, but...I
think that Buffy may resonate with quite a few people in the queer
community for a lot of reasons. It's campy, the subtext is undeniable
(and has become maintext in some cases), there is a certain amount
of genderbending that challenges traditional gender roles, and,
one of the biggest things for me- From the start, Buffy dealt
with a core group who were somewhat outsiders- not fitting into
societal norms. It dealt with people who felt alienated to some
extent, and how they coped with that. It had a hero who struggled
every day with wanting to feel "normal" (whatever that
means). It dealt with taboo/unconventional relationships. Looking
at eps like Becoming, where Buffy comes out of the weapons closet
to Joyce, I think it's easy to see where some of the themes/issues
dealt with could strike a chord with GLBT fans. Besides, Joss
works on a very metaphorical level, and I think that a lot of
us in the gay community have gotten used to reading between the
lines when it comes to mass media.
Crossovers -- Mike, 04:11:22 08/03/01 Fri
Aaargh, my threads are disappearing SOO quickly, I'm having to
think of new ones off the top of my head (which can ONLY mean
trouble!!!)
I was wondering with which series would you liek to see Buffy
crossover? And of course this is hypothetical, so it could be
ANY series
For example, Charmed would be interesting, and the X-Files, but
they're kinda obvious selections.
How about something more interesting like...
Ally McBeal?? Buffy stakes Ling, Xander thaws the Ice Maiden,
Willow hooks up with John Cage... er...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Brian, 04:48:13 08/03/01 Fri
How about Nash Bridges, just up the road in SF?
The Scoobies gang with Joyce goes North to wipe out a vampire
nest that turns out to be robbing banks, and Nash is on the case:
Nash thinks Joyce is hot:
Evan tries to seduce Buffy:
Willow and Harvey do the computer thing, while Giles and Harvey
do a 60's duet of some Grateful Dead song:
Xander is smitten with Cassidy:
Anya and Joe get together to work out some crazy money making
scheme:
Buffy and Nash discover they have an "Angel" in common:
Nick thinks Buffy must be family as she is the "spitting
image" of Nash's mother.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Cactus Watcher, 06:55:17 08/03/01 Fri
How about Friends? Buffy + gang visit NY and chase demon to the
vicinity of Central Perk. Scoobies meet Friends when Buffy stakes
Phoebe, because she obviously is not human. Fortunately, Phoebe
is not a vampire either and survives. Phoebe and Buffy swap stories
about their mothers and about having new siblings pop-in out of
nowhere. Willow de-rats Amy just long enough for Ross to marry
her. Amy goes back to rat form and Ross moans about marrying a
rat for the rest of his life. Joey says "How you doin'?"
to Dawn, which leads Spike to the discovery he can beat up moronic
actors. Chandler and Tara feeling left out, kiss each other as
a joke. Rachel sees them and thinks the worst, but she can't tell
anybody because a) If Buffy thought Phoebe was a vampire, Monica
is taking no chances, and is hiding in Jersey. b) Rachel would
never talk to anyone with Willow's taste in clothes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Crossovers - Buffy meets Classic Star Trek - This
is fun -- Brian, 08:45:47 08/03/01 Fri
While the Enterprise is exploring, Shock finds a new energy source
that seems to have its origin rooted in 2001. Using the sling
shot effect, they travel back in time, and end up in Sunnydale
(The energy source is the Hellmouth, stretching across time).
They meet the Scoobies and wackiness ensues:
Willow and Spock discover their mutual appreciation of computers.
Kirk hits on Buffy (great grossout factor here).
Xander and Checkov argue about who has better contruction technigues,
The Russians or the US. Joyce falls for Bones' swave Sothern charm.
Nurse Chapel and Tara share a couple of bottles of Romulian Ale
as their respective honeys appear so wrapped up in each other.
Giles and Sulu compare fensing technigues. Spock discovers that
the Vulcan pinch works on vamps. Anya checks the computer records
looking for future hot stock tips. The respective groups discover
that a solid phaser blast into the Hellmouth will seal all of
them forever. Buffy gets to retire; Angel becomes human, they
get married and move to San Diego. Kirk and company return to
their own time era. Later Spock comments that the desendents of
Buffy and Angel move to Iowa, and are actually ancestors of Jim
Kirk.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Earl Allison, 08:50:10 08/03/01 Fri
How about a crossover with "Gargoyles," the late, lamented
animated series from Disney?
Buffy and the Scoobies travel to Manhattan, where they cross paths
with Goliath and his Clan -- obvious misunderstandings occur when
Buffy assumes the gargoyles are demons and tries to kill them.
However, the two sides need to work together to stop Demona from
unleashing some new arcane threat.
Brooklyn would try desperately to impress Buffy (what the heck,
he's thrown himself at Maggie Reed and Angela already, Buffy would
just be next in line).
Giles could check out Xanatos' private library and collection
of arcane items -- maybe even meet MacBeth himself!
Xander and Anya could teach Bronx some stupid pet tricks, and
Anya can fuss over baby Alexander Xanatos ("Why look, he's
even got your name, Xander!").
Willow and Tara could compare notes (magically) with Puck (Owen's
true form) and see how their witch magics compare to Fey magic.
Thoughts?
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Buffy meets The A-Team -- mundusmundi, 12:56:02 08/03/01
Fri
Yes, I can see it now.
Yet again on Halloween, Ethan Rayne performs a spell that causes
Hannibal to get possessed by a monster while in costume on a movie
set. The Scoobies join The A-Team on the case, but Willow has
to use magic to fool B.A. into thinking they didn't travel by
plane. Compulsive womanizer Face sleeps with Buffy, only to lose
his Gypsy curse of tiresome one-dimensionality and becomes an
interesting character. Xander's jokes start getting on B.A.'s
nerves --"Shut up, fool!" he bellows -- and crazy Murdock
unnerves Dawn by saying, "I know who you are, Curds and Whey.
You don't belong here!"
At the end of the show, Giles smirks, lights a cigar and says,
"I love it when a plan comes together."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- vampire hunter D, 13:19:10 08/03/01 Fri
I would like to see an Angel/Forver Knight crossover. Come on,
lets put the two biggest remorseful vampires on tv at once! It
would also be interesting to see Dru and Darla hook up with Lacoix(sp?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Rattletrap, 18:45:52 08/03/01 Fri
Maybe an Angel/Seventh Heaven crossover in which Darla and Dru
eat the Camdens. OK, it might not be a crossover in the conventional
sense, and you'd still have to fill another 40 minutes of air
time, but I'd watch it . . .
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers btvs with dr who/star trek/forever knight
-- gds, 20:59:19 08/03/01 Fri
If you really want cossovers there are some.
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/index2.htm
is the starting point. Some specifics are
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/p1.htm
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/widomsv.htm
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/sk.htm
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/bxst1.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Oh, neat...... -- Rufus, 18:55:16 08/04/01 Sat
I know I'm tired when I thought one of the titles was the Secret
of Syphillis.........so embarrassed here....:):):)I bookmarked
it to read when more with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Crossovers -- Rosenberg, 21:17:18 08/03/01 Fri
I gotta go with the Buffy/Seinfeld crossover. George could be
knocked into another demension after asking too many lesbien questions
to Willow and Tara; Giles and Kramer become good friends until
he burns his magic shop down; Jerry gets rid of all the furniture
in his apartment after Buffy stakes a vampire and the vampy dust
sprays everywhere; Elaine hits on Spike, but stops because he
uses the word "bloody" too much. Ahhh, memories . .
.
And where would we be if Anya and Morty Seinfeld didn't go into
business together?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Crossovers-Buffy meets The Highlander -- Brian,
04:47:51 08/04/01 Sat
Since both are fantasies and there are about a zillion fan fictions
already written that crossover the shows, Buffy meets the Highlander
seems a natural.
A nasty demon leaves LA with Angel, Cordelia, and Doyle hot on
his trail. This demon stops off in Sunnydale, and robs the Magic
Shop of some vital artifacts that could bring disaster to the
world. So the Scoobies are on the case. The demon moves north
to Highlander country: The Scoobies et al. follow and high jinks
ensue:
Joe and Giles get together for some funky blues, and trade watcher
stories. Doyle, Spike, and Methos go out for some serious drinking.
Willow and Tara get some witchy tips from Cassandra. Ritchie hits
on Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, and Anya. Cordelia, Anya, and Amanda
borrow Mac's credit cards for some serious shopping. Joe and Joyce
hit it off, and compare notes on the trials and tribulations of
dealing with superpowered responsibilities. Ritchie and Xander
get into a tiff about who's more ineffective in a battle. Angel
and Mac compare brooding techniques. Mac shows Buffy some new
sword fighting techniques. Willow and Joe do the computer thing.
Xander develops a crush on Amanda, but realizes she's too young
for him. Fitzcairn shows up and he and Anya develop a get rich
scheme. The demon? Oh, Mac and Buffy does some sword work, and
turn him into sushi.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> lol! -- mundusmundi, 06:45:59 08/04/01 Sat
Or, Jerry could have stake-envy. ;)
Classic Movie of the Week - August 3rd 2001 - GP / BT! -- OnM,
22:18:06 08/03/01 Fri
OK, like I promised last week, this month we're going to do something
a little different.
A few weeks back, when I did my 'anti-review' of *The Avengers:
The Movie*, I compared it to *Star
Wars: The Phantom Menace*, with the primary comparison being that
I felt the critical failure of both of
these movies was not in that they didn't look good, or have adequate
acting talent available, but that in
each case, despite creating a substantial degree of very appealing
'eye candy', the films lacked the element
of 'soul'.
Now, I'm not referring here to what James Brown exhibits when
he sings, but more so the type of soul that
we talk about when we discuss the Buffyverse. Within the context
of that universe, Joss has defined 'soul'
as being the sort of core essence of sentience that drives it
in the general direction of doing good. As we
have seen time and again over the last five years, this isn't
anywhere as simple as it sounds at first. The
nature of moral ambiguity is that one can, with the very best
intentions, end up committing an act with evil
consequences. Conversely, the act of a normally evil being can
have unforseen consequences of good.
If a movie has 'soul', it doesn't automatically mean that it is
a good movie, but at least in most cases it
means that there were good intentions afoot somewhere. Even if
the flick was basically intended as a tax
writeoff for the producers, the cast and crew and writers can
still have some fun with it and thus entertain
or enlighten us, albeit in a somewhat more humble fashion. In
fact, budget is *not* a factor in making many
great films, nor is great acting talent, or any of the other stuff
normally deemed desirable. All you really
need is good intent, and some modicum of sincerity and cleverness.
All of which brings us to this month's conceptual arc, which is
'Guilty Pleasures/Buried Treasures'. During
the next four weeks, I am going to be discussing some films that
are not only not 'great' films, but that in
most cases would make the average movie critic choke on their
$5.00 popcorn. That's right, we're talking
about those movies that you and I have seen that when you leave
the theater with your friends, they are
laughing and making jokes about just how awful those last two
hours of their collective lives were, and
you're thinking to yourself-- 'Huh? How come they didn't get it?
They didn't see the third act as a send-up
of Scorsese's obsession with the eternal conflict between the
essential violent, animalistic nature of man vs.
his pretensions to spirituality? And what about the use of background
color themes to comment visually on
the root causes of the protagonist's schizophrenic behavior?'
OK, so you see what is going on, and they all missed the boat.
Your friends hated it, the critics hated it, the
theater closed the run after only one week because no one showed
up after the third day of screenings.
You can't possibly be right in your evaluation of this film, now
can you?
Well, buck up pookie, of course you can be right! Whadda they
know? It meant something, struck a
sympathetic chord, rang your bell, made your millenium. Art is
*very* subjective, and just because 20
million people thought it sucked eggs, and you made an omelet
out of it, that's your gain and their loss! So
to all those movie mavens out there who thought that *Phantom
Menace* rocked, or even that *Avengers:
The Movie* was just grotesquely misunderstood (What, are you wacko????),
rest assured that you have a
sympathetic eyeball in your weekly movie-man here, for I feel
your pain and raise you some heartache. I
will now prove my intellectual allegiance to you by starting out
this last month of the summer with four,
(count 'em, four!!), manic movie monstrosities that nonetheless
warm the cockles of my 24 frame heart, or
at least give me a decent giggle or three.
Starting right now:
OK, let's face it, we've got 'bots on our minds these days.. No,
no, don't deny it! You moan and you
kvetch and you bitch up a storm, but you've got a case of the
'bots for this popular popular cultural
artificial artifact. I mean, they're everywhere. Spielberg has
conjured up the celluloid spectre of Kubrick,
and melded his gee-whiz-ism all over it, or at least all over
the last half hour of it. Long before A.I. there
was Kubrick sans Spielberg and the HAL9000. In between the two
of them is/was Commander Data of
Trek fame, he of the positronically-Asimov-inspired brain fame.
Today, there are 'real' robots fighting
junkyard wars on Tech TV, mowing your lawn, assembling your cars,
and of course, more fictionally,
playing the fool for the love of bleached-blond vamp bad boys
in our own beloved Buffyverse.
What's not to love, huh? I ask ya?
Well, I like 'bots, as stand-ins for us Orgs, there are none better.
We look at them and see our (insect?)
reflection, for good or for bad. The science fiction genre has
been a Mecca for Mechas for well over a
century now, and I wouldn't look for the romance to be over anytime
soon. And speaking of romance, sex
and 'bots and the nature of what it means to be human (or not)
and in love (or in lust) have been the
subject of fantasies since Ben Franklin first discovered that
electrons can make things vibrate.
(Bzzzzttt......)
Now, as Sherman sets the Wayback Machine to 1987, we will miraculously
appear in the local movie
house to see a new take on the time-honored classic story of boy
meets girl, boy makes mad passionate
love with girl, girl shorts out in large puddle of dishwater that
is overflowing the sink, and boy discovers
girl is a discontinued model. Lights! Action! Drama!
The boy (well, actually a man), one Sam Treadwell (David Andrews),
is at the robot repair shop where the
tech is sadly remarking about the 'complete internal meltdown'
of Sam's treasured lovebot, a long lost
classic model of sensitivity, passion, grace and craftmanship,
known as 'Cherry'. And not just any Cherry
model, but the creme de la creme of Cherries, the '2000'. Sam
looks over some possible replacements, but
it is clear his heart just isn't in them. He decides that he will
just have to deal with the loss, move past it,
and possibly date some real women instead.
This isn't as easy as it seems, because the dating scene has gotten
sort of complicated in the middle 21st
century. Nightclubs are filled not only with dancing, sensual
bodies, but also with lawyers and computers
who happily map out contracts to ensure that the subsequent nights
of passion will meet everyone's needs,
or else provide suitable legal means for compensation. Sam finds
this depressing, and to such a great extent
that he decides to engage some professional help for a dangerous
course of action-- he hires a 'tracker', in
this case one E. Johnson, to locate and retrieve one of the last
remaining Cherry 2000's from a robot
warehouse deep in the heart of a vast desert wasteland. Since
he still possesses Cherry's 'chip', which
contains all of her personality, her robot 'soul' so to speak,
if he can just get a new body, his beloved will
arise from the ashes of the past, and spring to life and love
once more.
Does Sam succeed? Well, maybe. Does the 'E. Johnson' he's told
to seek out as being one of the finest
trackers around lead him on a trail of wild and crazy adventures?
Well, of course. Does the fact that E.
stands for Edith, and that she is one clever, intelligent, resourseful
and (of course) sexy l'il tracker mean
that Sam will see the error of his robot-lovin' ways and start
doing the real once more?
Whadda *you* think? Of course he does, she does, the 'bot does,
everyone does, and I guarentee you will
see all this coming from a parsec away, but you won't care, because
this silly, predictable, deliberately
derivative B-flick has the one thing that make you not care about
any of the normal attributes of great
movie making, and that one thing is... soul.
It has soul because of the scene in the Glu-Glu Club where none
other than Larry Fishburne does a short
guest spot as one of the legal beagles.
It has soul because in the repair shop scene, in the background
behind Sam Treadwell as he looks forlornly
over his burned out bride, you can see the robots from *The Day
the Earth Stood Still* and *Forbidden
Planet* leaning against the wall.
It has soul because of a clever stunt involving lifting a car
over a canyon with a giant electromagnet and
crane, and then dropping it down into a water-filled cavern where
a guy named Six-Fingered Jake waits on
a raft to take them to his home, where he has all these toaster
ovens stashed.
It has soul because it understands how to properly parody a Mad
Max movie and a Vangelis score.
It has soul because the villian uses phrases like 'I'm feeling
negative energy here...' while his face is
smeared with ointment from getting stung by bees that he keeps
on his 'Sky Ranch' in the middle of the
desert.
It has soul because the heroine is one of those scrappy, can-do
types, who always does.
It has soul because despite making the moral of the story eminently
plain, it still never treats Cherry as a
joke or overtly degrades her, even though that would be the obvious
thing to do.
It has soul because the producers had the good sense to cast Melanie
Griffith as E. Johnson, and she and
David Andrews have great on-screen chemistry.
And it has soul that comes from the obvious fact that everybody--
writiers, cast, and crew-- clearly had a
blast making this silly little movie, 'cos it's all up there on
the screen.
So, my friends, 'bot'n up your overcoat, treadle on down to the
video store, and rent yourself a copy of
Steve De Jarnatt's *Cherry 2000* this weekend. It's the perfect
antidote to a life (or at least a summer) of
thinking too much.
E. Pluribus Cinema, Unum,
OnM
*******
Technical Mecca:
*Cherry 2000* is available on DVD. The film was released in 1987,
running time is 1 hour and 38 minutes.
The main soundtrack is English Dolby Surround, with a French Mono
second soundtrack. Subtitles are
available in French and Spanish. The original theatrical aspect
ratio is 1.85:1, which is preserved on the
DVD, and enhanced for 16x9 televisions (anamorphic). Director
of photography is Jacques Haitkin. Music
was composed by Basil Poledouris.
Main cast overview:
David Andrews .... Sam Treadwell
Melanie Griffith .... E. (Edith) Johnson
Jennifer Balgobin .... Glory Hole Clerk
Marshall Bell .... Bill
Harry Carey Jr. .... Snappy Tom
Laurence Fishburne .... Glu Glu Lawyer
Pamela Gidley .... Cherry 2000
Michael C. Gwynne .... Slim
Brion James .... Stacy
Ben Johnson (I) .... Six Fingered Jake
Jeff Levine (I) .... Marty
Jennifer Mayo .... Randa
Cameron Milzer .... Ginger
Howard Swain .... Skeet
Jack Thibeau .... Stubby
*******
I don't usually go into the greater level of detail on the actors
and such like I'm doing here, but since these
two people might not be the biggest names in the firmament of
your movie mind, I thought I'd crib a few
stats from the IMDb and park 'em here for you, just so you can
get some kind of a handle on what other
work these folk have been involved with. First, the director of
*Cherry 2000*:
Steve De Jarnatt - Director
Planet Rules (1995) (TV)
"ER" (1994) TV Series (episodes "Masquerade"
& "Truth & Consequences")
Miracle Mile (1989)
Cherry 2000 (1987)
Alfred Hitchcock Presents (1985) (TV)
Steve De Jarnatt - Writer
Futuresport (1998) (TV) (story)
"The X Files" (1993) TV Series (episode 2.18 "Fearful
Symmetry")
Miracle Mile (1989)
Black Moon Rising (1986)
Strange Brew (1983) (...aka The Adventures of Bob & Doug McKenzie)
Steve De Jarnatt - Producer
"Kindred: The Embraced" (1996) TV Series (co-producer)
*******
Next, the guy who plays the other lead across from Melanie Griffith
(and does a darn good job!):
:
David Andrews - (Actor)
Hannibal (2001) .... Clint Pearsall
Navigating the Heart (2000) (TV) .... William Sanders
Switched at Birth (1999) (TV) .... James Barlow
Fight Club (1999) .... Thomas at Remaining Men Together
The Color of Courage (1999) (TV)
Fifteen and Pregnant (1998) (TV) .... Cal Spangler
"From the Earth to the Moon" (1998) (mini) TV Series
.... Frank Borman
Bad Day On the Block (1997) .... Reese Braverton
"Murder One" (1995) TV Series .... Michael Biden
"The Monroes" (1995) TV Series .... William (Billy)
Monroe
Apollo 13 (1995) .... Pete Conrad
Wyatt Earp (1994) .... James Earp
Deconstructing Sarah (1994) (TV) .... Paul
"Mann & Machine" (1992) TV Series .... Detective Bobby
Mann
Living a Lie (1991) (TV) .... Lonnie
"Antagonists, The" (1991) TV Series .... Jack Scarlett
Graveyard Shift (1990) .... John Hall
A Son's Promise (1990) (TV) .... Wayne O'Kelley
Blind Faith (1990) (TV) .... Ricky Dunbar
Cherry 2000 (1987) .... Sam Treadwell
"Pulaski" (1987) TV Series .... Larry Summers (aka Pulaski)
Kerouac, the Movie (1985) .... Dean Moriarty
Wild Horses (1985) (TV) .... Dean Ellis
A Nightmare on Elm Street (1984) .... Foreman
The Burning Bed(1984) (TV) .... Wimpy Hughes
"Legend of Death" (1965) TV Series .... Theodore
"Promised Land" (1996) playing "Frank Conroy"
in ep: "Bookworm" (episode # 2.11)
"Equalizer, The" (1985) playing "Dale Stevens"
in ep: "Race Traitors" (episode # 4.20)
"Miami Vice" (1984) playing "Jack Crockett"
in ep: "Jack of All Trades" (episode # 5.12)
"The Equalizer" (1985) playing "Del Larkin"
in ep: "Dance On the Dark Side, A" (episode # 3.12)
"L.A. Law" (1986) playing "Mr. Simmons" in
ep: "Princess and the Weiner King" (episode # 1.3)
"Miami Vice" (1984) in episode: "One Eyed Jack"
(episode # 1.6)
*******
News and Miscellanea:
*New Movie Alert*-- Got out this week to check out *Legally Blonde*.
I saw the trailer a few weeks ago,
and was pretty dubious, but since Reese Witherspoon is starring
in it, I figured I'd give it the benefit of the
doubt, since I think she is one of the most delightful actors
to grace the screen in a long time. I have in fact
now amended the Ebertian 'M. Emmett Walsh Rule' to include Reese
Witherspoon, i.e., 'No movie in
which Reese Witherspoon appears can be completely bad'.
There are a couple of false moves in *Legally Blonde*, but they
are minor ones, and that doesn't stop this
from being a wonderfully entertaining experience. The opening
sequence, beautifully shot, edited, scored,
and acted, shows that there is a real intelligence behind the
seemingly fluffy subject matter, and the film
keeps you involved pretty much throughout. Witherspoon's natural
effervescence keeps you rooting for
her character to triumph in the end, which of course you know
long before that occurs, but you don't
care-- it's a ride. Go for it.
Speaking of Japanese 'Anime', which I was a few weeks ago when
I reviewed *Princess Mononoke*, be
aware that *Akira* has just now been released on DVD. I haven't
gotten to see the film yet, but I've heard
very good things about this 'masterpiece', so I'm looking forward
to it, maybe this weekend if time frees
up for me to pop it in the player.
*******
Finally, the Question of the Week, and an easy one, if you're
brave, that is:
What is your favorite Guilty Pleasure / Buried Treasure, filmwise?
(Aw, c'mon, you wanna tell us, you know you do!)
Post 'em if you got 'em, and see you next week!
*******
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - August 3rd 2001 - GP / BT!
-- d'Herblay, 22:41:57 08/03/01 Fri
One credit you left out, of interest here.
Ben Johnson(I) (Six Fingered Jake):
Wild Bunch, The (1969) .... Tector Gorch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - August 3rd 2001 - GP / BT!
-- Liquidram, 23:04:14 08/03/01 Fri
Thanks for the memory of Cherry 2000... I found this film one
Sunday afternoon many years ago and loved it. I spent half the
time crying over her Mustang because my beloved '65 had just been
hit broadside and totalled.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> My guilty pleasure...Night of the Comet -- Rufus, 23:48:08
08/03/01 Fri
I even saw Cherry 2000, not the best in cinema but enjoyable.
Makes me think of the Buffybot.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Actually, Night of the Comet, on the top of my BT
list (ah, Sam and Regina)... -- Anthony8, 00:40:09 08/04/01 Sat
...along with Scorcese's 'After Hours' and Linklater's 'Before
Sunrise.' My GPs would be 'Silent Running' (deranged astro/econaut
Bruce Dern and proto-R2D2 'bots) and 'Westworld' (yet more 'bots).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Guilty Pleasures: The Hidden -- Brian, 04:04:19
08/04/01 Sat
Nasty vs "good" alien, excessive violence, great music,
Kyle MacLachlan auditioning his "Dale Cooper" pre Twin
Peaks role, Michael Nouri is his last good action role, and, of
course, Claudia Christian as a stripper in her first movie role.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> The Hidden. Woohoo! -- Andy, 05:19:13
08/04/01 Sat
I remember going to see The Hidden with a friend of mine when
we were in junior high school or around then and not expecting
anything from it. We ended up having a ball. How can you not love
a movie in which the aliens have predilections for heavy metal
music and exotic, high performance sports cars? :) I need to get
this one on dvd...
I don't really have any guilty pleasures. I tend to be of the
mind that true art mostly emerges from people that don't necessarily
set out to create it. Joss might say Buffy "ain't Shakespeare"
but it is more artful than most shows that set out to be "important",
for example. However, for a good "buried treasure" I'd
like to recommend a film called The Blood of Heroes (alternate
title: Salute of the Jugger). It stars Rutger Hauer, Joan Chen,
Delroy Lindo, and Vincent D'Onofrio and it's a Mad Max derivative
about a post-apocalyptic sports team travelling the ruined countryside,
toiling in the "minor leagues" and trying to make its
way to the Big City and win the Big Game. Fairly standard sports
film plot but it becomes novel because of the setting and its
sharp writing and direction (the game involves a runner charging
across the field and attempting to implant a dog skull onto a
spike while the other team attempts to maul her). The writer/director
in question is David Webb Peoples, who wrote Blade Runner, 12
Monkeys, and Unforgiven (and Soldier and Leviathan, but we'll
just ignore those ;)). It's fun stuff :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Yes, I'd forgotten about The Hidden.....loved
it...feel guilty as hell..:):):) -- Rufus, 17:04:14 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Guilty Pleasures -- mundusmundi, 06:26:58 08/04/01 Sat
I'm partial to Congo, which lord knows isn't a good movie, but
it cracks me up everytime I see it. I also like, from the Renny
Harlin oeuvre, Deep Blue Sea, which most critics excoriated as
a dumb movie. I think it's a smart movie pretending to be a dumb
movie. Note how the actors are killed, more or less, in order
of talent (in today's blockbuster climate, the bad ones survive
the longest).
Haven't seen Cherry 2000. But that director's first film, the
apocalyptic satire Miracle Mile, is an interesting flick and a
guilty pleasure in its own right.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Guilty Pleasures -- Liquidram, 21:32:22 08/04/01
Sat
Samuel L. Jackson's climatic scene had to be one of the best EVER.
I loved DBS.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Does TPM count as a guilty pleasure/hidden treasure?
-- Dedalus, 09:56:26 08/04/01 Sat
Mesa no tink so.
$450 million at the domestic box office. Nothing gets to $450
million on hype. (nothing gets to $200 million on hype)
Third highest movie domestic.
Almost a billion worldwide take. Second highest grossing movie
of all time. Actually, highest grossing movie in Russia, even
beating Titanic, despite the fact that they had missed the first
three.
Over at RottenTomatoes, TPM is actually scoring a Fresh Rating
with critics now. Over 60% of the reviews are at least marginally
positive.
Over at the Force.net, TPM was rated second best Star Wars movie,
beating out both ANH and ROTJ.
In a huge, nationwide poll in England, TPM was voted one of the
top ten best films of the MILLENIUM.
The video sold five million copies in two days.
Within 24 hours of the announcement of its release on DVD, it
was number one at Amazon.
I don't know. But anyway, if it can be counted as a hidden treasure
or whatever, that's mine.
And just for the record, The Avengers was really, really bad.
Not even comical bad. Just bad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Hey hey now, no pickin' on... -- Solitude1056, 22:16:06
08/04/01 Sat
...anything that's got Uma Thurman in skin-tight leather. How
could you go wrong with pure eye-candy? Then again, I saw it at
the dollar theater so it's not like it cost me more than 2 hours
of bliss & 100 pennies. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Hummm.. wonder what would happen if Tim Burton
remade 'The Avengers' as a movie? -- OnM, 22:46:13 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Johnny Depp as Steed? Hmmmm...I dunno...
;o) -- Wisewoman, 22:53:58 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> And I just thought Mrs. Peel would
get a shinier cat-suit.......:):):) -- Rufus, 23:02:54 08/04/01
Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Well, Burton has a gift for great
casting choices. Who do you think... -- OnM, 23:16:37 08/04/01
Sat
...he would pick for Steed and Emma? Actually, I would accept
Depp as Steed, he's a far, far better actor than people give him
credit for, IMO.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> LOVE Johnny, but... -- Wisewoman,
23:23:57 08/04/01 Sat
...I was thinkin' of some of Burton's leading ladies: Gena Davis
and Kim Basinger would tower over him, Christina Ricci is too,
I don't know, "white-bread" for Peel(?), Uma's done
it, and Winona, well, we won't even go there!
What was that wonderful, weird dark thing he was in (there've
been so many) was it called Dead Man? That never got the kudos
is deserved, IMHO.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd love to see someone
with the presence of Diana Rigg....I just can't think of who?
-- Rufus, 23:30:43 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe Emma Thompson?
-- Anthony8, 23:38:37 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> She'd be
my choice. ;o) -- Wisewoman, 10:20:00 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dead Man, Mystery Train,
A Night On Earth. Anything by Jarmusch works for me. -- Anthony8,
23:40:04 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Hey hey now, no pickin' on... -- Dedalus,
09:45:10 08/05/01 Sun
Me and TPM ... I swear ...
You think my Buffy essay was wild ... wait till you see some of
my TPM thoughts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Hey hey now, no pickin' on... -- mundusmundi,
11:35:42 08/05/01 Sun
Guess this would be a realllly bad time to mention my George Lucas
is Darth Vader theory?
*Drops the keyboard...hands in the air...backs away slowly...*
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> There's no one like OnM... -- Nina, 12:57:11 08/05/01
Sun
to pick a flick like Cherry 2000 and make it look so cool in his
critic movie of the week! :) Got to love you for that! I saw the
movie dubbed in French many many years ago and don't even remember
the story that well. But definitely some Buffybot reminders there!
Guilty pleasure.... probably "Overboard". I saw that
on tv, a night I was alone at home many years ago, and laughed
through the whole thing like there was no tomorrow. I still don't
understand what took me or what stung me that night...but I remember
that as a guilty pleasure (as the movie is far from being Oscar
material! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - August 3rd 2001 - GP / BT!
-- Vonnie, 14:51:46 08/05/01 Sun
I've been lurking on the board for a couple of weeks without posting
because, well, I didn't have anything intelligent to contribute.
I've since decided not to let little things like lack of a point
stop me. :)
Hi everyone! I'm Vonnie, a season 5 Buffy convert, and I am a
Spike-a-holic.
Now that's out of the way.....I loved OnM's review of "Cherry
2000". I caught it a couple of years ago on a late night
cable, and was delighted at the whole thing and especially at
how appealing Melanie Griffith was, given that I usually don't
think much of her movies. Hmm. Time for a rewatch, I think.
My pick for GP/BT is "Wicker Man" (1973), which I had
never heard of until this past year. I picked it up casually at
a local video store, and.... Oh. My. God. It is one of the weirdist,
funniest (somewhat unintentionally), scariest, most disturbing
movies I've ever seen. And I've seen A LOT of movies. It's about
this rather fanatically repressed devout christian police officer
in Scotland who goes off alone to a remote isle to investigate
a mysterious disappearance of a young girl. There he encounts
a tightly-knit community of pagans, and to his horror comes to
believe that the missing girl was a victim of a ritual sacrifice.
Then things unfold in a truly unexpected way....
The grip the film has on me is kind of hard to describe. The 70's
costume is cringe-worthy, and Christopher Lee (the main "villain")
has a truly freightening hairdo rivalling the season 5 Xander-do.
There is god-awful 70's folk-music that serves as a soundtrack,
which weirdly transforms itself from laughable to ominous as the
story progresses. There is also a half-erotic and half-ridiculous
Dance of Seduction by the local nymphomanic played by the very
nude Britt Eckland, who prances around like she is doing a solo
at the Riverdance, the Swedish version. The dialogue is awfully
stilted as well. Despite all that, the movie weaves a strange
spell, and then WHAM! comes the denouement, which I won't spoil
here for those who haven't seen it yet. Suffice it to say that
it counts as one of the precious few moments of genuine horror
I've thus far experienced. I get shivers even now, just thinking
about the damn thing.
So a big Rec from me on "Wicker Man". It's not to everyone's
taste, but it's memorable indeed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Welcome, Vonnie! An auspicious debut... -- Wisewoman,
15:40:03 08/05/01 Sun
I was going through an Edward Woodward/Equalizer phase when I
rented The Wicker Man, and it just blew me away. It truly is creepy,
and yet fascinating.
Hey, and don't forget to cast your vote for Spike, in the thread
above...I think we're in the lead!
;o)
Wisewoman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Welcome, Vonnie! An auspicious debut...
-- Andy, 10:09:52 08/06/01 Mon
I think I'm going to have to give Wicker Man a try when the dvd
comes out this fall (in a neat wooden box, no less!). Heard lots
of good things about it :)
Oh! I know I said in my message above that I didn't really have
any guilty pleasures and that I like what I like, but I just came
up with a guilty pleasure I do have: Son In Law. It's got Pauly
Shore in it but it makes me laugh. 'Nuff said :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Hey.....I saw Wicker Man......liked it....... -- Rufus,
17:30:35 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins -- Wilder, 20:33:14
08/05/01 Sun
Ahh, what a prophetic title.
But, if you love Fred Ward like I do (Tremors anyone?) .... Here
our hero trains under the Asiatic stylings of our favorite reptilian
resurrection doctor and has as a romantic foil none other than
Captain Janeway.
"Watches are a confidence trick invented by the Swiss."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Tremors...now there's a GP/BT! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 21:05:40
08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Tremors...now there's a GP/BT! ;o) -- LadyStarlight,
16:45:16 08/07/01 Tue
Don't remind me of Tremors! When my oldest was four, he DEMANDED
Tremors or Tremors 2 every day for six months. I finally had to
hide them and play dumb. (No, honey I don't know where they are.
Honest.)
Of course, when he was 18 months old, his favorite movie was Maximum
Overdrive. I hope because of the big trucks. Otherwise I'm going
to have a lot of explaining to do in court someday...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Ha! Went through the, "Poppins? Where
Poppins go?" thing with my nephews... -- Wisewoman, 17:06:04
08/07/01 Tue
I can't watch a Julie Andrew's movie to this day!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins -- Jarrod
Harmier, 18:40:53 08/07/01 Tue
"Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins"
That movie is one of the greates movies of all time.
Great writing. Great acting. Great action sequences. Great musical
score.
This was based on a series of novels collectively called "The
Destroyer". I only have one and the last time I checked--a
few years ago--there were near a hundred in the series. The novel
I have--"Dark Horse"--is filled with action but it was
worth the cover price just for its political satire and skewering
of certain "journalists".
"Yes, yes, senator. You have shown how rogue nations may
now have the capacity for developing nuclear stockpiles. But what
we all want to know is how does this affect the probability of
Buffy/Xander, Lori/Merton, and Angela/Jacob romances?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Buckaroo Bonzai -- purplegrrl, 08:41:38 08/06/01 Mon
Everytime I watch this movie I see something I missed before.
Peter Weller is great as the hard rockin' physicist/surgeon/martial
artist Buckaroo. Great music, fun dialog ("No matter where
you go, there you are.", "It's not my goddamn planet,
monkey boy!"), bizarre characters and situations. Watch it
for a wide array of actors early in their career - Elaine Barkin,
John Lithgow, Christopher Lloyd, Lewis Smith, Pepe Serna, Clancy
Brown, to name a few.
I only wish they had made the promised sequel - "Buckaroo
Bonzai vs. the World Crime League"!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Would have done a CMotW on this already, if it was
out on DVD -- OnM, 09:20:19 08/06/01 Mon
This film isn't a 'guilty pleasure' for me, it's a flat out great
film. Clever and witty as all get out, for all the reasons you
mentioned and more. I've used that phrase 'No matter where you
go...' lots of times since seeing this for the first time. And
the way Lithgow chews up the scenery? Priceless!
Whenever it does finally come out on DVD, rest assured it gets
a column all for itself!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Would have done a CMotW on this already,
if it was out on DVD -- purplegrrl, 09:42:02 08/06/01 Mon
***This film isn't a 'guilty pleasure' for me, it's a flat out
great film.***
Well, I agree. Unfortunately, I think a lot of critics viewed
it as cultish.
(BTW, why does a film have to be on DVD to eligible for CMotW??
Most of us don't own a player, do we??)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Why DVD for CMotW? -- OnM, 18:27:08 08/06/01
Mon
Actually, it isn't a requirement, but it tends to depend on the
film. Buckaroo Bonzai was shot in a very widescreen, 2.35:1 format,
which you may notice since they often cut to a letterboxed format
for the end credits, so that the text doesn't literally get chopped
off the screen.
I have a big, big problem with this if the filmmaker uses the
entire frame to set their visual style within. Thus, while the
film can sometimes be enjoyable to watch in the heavily cropped
version you see on VHS or cable, you really aren't watching the
film as it was intended to be seen, and when I try to pick a film
for review, I prefer to have it available to be seen just as it
was in the movie theater.
I realize not everyone is as picky about this as I tend to be,
but it's a matter of holding out for what the artists who create
these works intend the end results to be. It's very much like
if you wrote a really great story, then someone comes along and
rewrites it, throwing out about half of everything you wrote because
s/he 'likes short books better'.
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Why DVD for CMotW? -- Jarrod
Harmier, 18:56:58 08/07/01 Tue
I saw "2001: A Space Odyssey" on TNT in a letterboxed
format. It would not have been the same if it had been shown full
screen. I can't wait until it's rereleased in October.
Also, I really don't have guilty pleasures. I have pleasures that
other people think I should be guilty about. Like the TV series
"Buffy", "Angel", "Gene Roddenberry's
Earth: Final Conflict", "Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda",
and "Passions". And the movies "2001: A Space Odyssey"
(best movie of all time, yet most people I meet at school don't
get it), "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai: Across the 8th
Dimension" (funny and serious at the same time), "Big
Trouble in Little China", "The Hidden", "Silent
Running", "Cherry 2000", ""The Evil Dead",
and "Barbarella".
"Yes, yes, senator. You have shown how rogue nations may
now have the capacity for developing nuclear stockpiles. But what
we all want to know is how does this affect the probability of
Buffy/Xander, Lori/Merton, and Angela/Jacob romances?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why DVD for CMotW? --
OnM, 23:45:31 08/07/01 Tue
*Barbarella* is another flick that is now out on DVD, and as a
result looks extremely different than the way it typically looks
when rerun on late night TV or cable.
A lot of people who are new to DVD (and didn't have laserdisc
before it) are often disconcerted at first after they get a player,
since the vast majority of films on DVD are presented in the original
widescreen version. It can be a problem if you are watching on
smaller than a 27" TV, but as the screen gets larger and
larger, the image gets more and more cinematic, and more 'natural'
looking. Your brain will adapt if you give it some time, even
on smaller sets. I've been watching letterbox for so long now
(being used to it from laserdisc days) that almost anytime I see
a recent film formatted to 4x3 format, it immediately looks visually
'wrong' to me!
BTW, the main TV set in my house is a plain old little 27"
jobbie, so I'm not as spoiled screen-size-wise as some readers
night think!
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> "Home is where you wear your hat. I feel
so breakup, I want to go home." -- Isabel, 15:56:19 08/07/01
Tue
It just loses something without John Lithgow's really weird 'Italian?'
accent.
I love this movie. This and "Tremors" are two of my
favorites. So if I can't list them as my guilty pleasures, (what,
I'm not guilty about them. I cheerfully force them upon anyone
foolish enough to sit in front of my television long enough.)
I think I'll have to say "The Gods Must Be Crazy." ("How
did the Antichrist end up in the tree?" "I don't want
to talk about it.")And I love that a Coke bottle is a curse
from the Gods. ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Guilty Pleasure: The Villain -- Vickie, 09:27:05 08/06/01
Mon
*The Villain*
A Roadrunner cartoon, starring Kirk Douglas as Wile E. Coyote.
With Ann Margaret as Charming Jones, Arnold Schwartzenegger(sp?)
as Handsome Stranger ("My mother named me after my father").
And a cast of tens (Ruth Buzzi).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Guilty Pleasure: The Villain -- purplegrrl, 09:35:18
08/06/01 Mon
Oh yeah!!
I love Douglas' smart-aleck horse, Whiskey.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> GP / BT - Young Enstein -- Little One, 13:43:03 08/07/01
Tue
I admit, a Yahoo Serious movie tops my list of GP/BT movies. Young
Enstien is so silly it is brilliant and it never fails to have
me holding my sides in guffaws and chuckles (not to mention who
can resist Enstein saving a bunch of mewing kittens from becoming
a pie!). Even my father, my family's chief physicist, cynic and
tinkerer, can't help laughing at this movie. In fact, he'll even
take pull up a chair and partake of every pun and pratfall with
great delight.
The previously mentioned Buckaroo Bonsai rates rather high on
my list as well. It's a great movie and keeps getting better each
time I see it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - August 3rd 2001 - GP / BT!
-- Jarrod Harmier, 18:27:01 08/07/01 Tue
"Cherry 2000". I have that on tape. Funnny.
If you like Tim Thomerson--the villian of "Cherry 2000"--he
is in two other movies with soul. "Trancers" and "Dollman".
Both are fun rides.
The first time I saw "Trancers" was on a Saturday at
10 PM on our town's local Fox station way back when. On Saturdays
they used to run science fiction or horror movies. I had never
heard of "Trancers", but I thought it would be kind
of fun. It was. The movie was fillled with action, supspense,
and humor. It also starred that actress from the TV series "Mad
ABout You". Typical "Trancers" conversation: "What
kind of name is Joe Gunn?" (In response to an old TV program
the main character is watching.) "What kind of name is Jack
Deth?"
"Dollman is about an alien cop who crashes on Earth. The
tagline was: "Thirteen inches tall...with an attitude."
It has to be seen to be believed. I'm glad it went straight-to-video
because if it had released theatrically by one of the major studios,
they would have ruined it. Just find it and watch it. I think
you'll agree. It also has a rather bittersweet ending.
"Yes, yes, senator. You have shown how rogue nations may
now have the capacity for developing nuclear stockpiles. But what
we all want to know is how does this affect the probability of
Buffy/Xander, Lori/Merton, and Angela/Jacob romances?"
Dedalus' excellent essay: THE MYTHOLOGY AND MAGIC OF BUFFY THE
VAMPIRE SLAYER -- Liquidram, 15:23:43 08/04/01 Sat
Go visit it now at the site
Anymore out there? Send 'em over!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dedalus' excellent essay: THE MYTHOLOGY AND MAGIC OF
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER -- LadyStarlight, 15:45:15 08/04/01 Sat
Great job! If anyone ever asks me why I watch Buffy, I'll hand
them a copy of your essay.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Dedalus' excellent essay: THE MYTHOLOGY AND MAGIC
OF BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER -- Tanker, 16:31:15 08/04/01 Sat
This is one of the essays that brought me to a place of peace
and understanding with "The Gift" in the face of the
naysaying that is still going on in other forums. I just wish
I could be as articulate so that I could argue in its favor effectively.
I always feel like Tim from "Tool Time" when he tried
to repeat one of Wilson's bits of philosophical wisdom and botched
it hilariously. Thanks for posting it again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> The Idea is the Thing -- Rufus, 18:42:09 08/04/01
Sat
Some people have a gift with the written word. That doesn't mean
that you don't have ideas that are worthwhile. You may underestimate
your own talents when it comes to expressing yourself. I find
speech, for me is the closest I can come to truly expressing an
idea. The written word isn't my favorite way of communicating
ideas. So it's practice, practice, practice. Plus I throw some
coma's and periods at a post to show I at least contemplated the
concept of punctuation....:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> What she said, and furthermore... -- OnM,
21:17:28 08/04/01 Sat
it's all a matter of working with whatever you have and trying
to improve it. When I go back and look at some of the early Classic
Movie columns I wrote, just for example, I read 'em and think,
'Humm, these are kinda, well, average, i.e. boring.'
See, now I'm the opposite of Rufus, in that while I can speak
reasonably well, writing works far better for me in that I'm naturally
sort of slowish in coming up with clever thoughts or ideas. It
only looks spontaneous because what you read in 10 or 15 minutes
might have taken me three hours or so to compose! Not to mention
that even after doing it for about 40 years now, my typing skills
are still lousy!
This forum has been a great help to me in learning how to express
myself, and that's why I try to 'pass it along', so that others
who might question their abilities can do the same.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Thinking, Writing, Becoming -- mundusmundi,
06:59:06 08/05/01 Sun
Meant to respond to you in my Dawn thread only to get sidetracked,
but I wanted to say that you obviously express yourself very well.
Personally, I have no problem with counter-opinions, so long as
they're thoughtful and articulate (humor helps too). There's no
shortage of that here, so stick around.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Thinking, Writing, Becoming -- Dedalus,
10:03:55 08/05/01 Sun
I remember enjoying reading what Mike always had to say over on
Usenet. Always good stuff. And he does express himself well.
Not to mention, he is funny as hellmouth.
God, that was a bad pun. But you get the point.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Fantastic essay! Really, really insightful! -- Kerri, 15:52:39
08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Damn! that's a cool essay -- vampire hunter D, 20:27:17
08/04/01 Sat
It's stuff like this that makes me wonder why I come here. I read
something like that, and it just reminds me how big of an idiot
I am compared to you guys.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Us idiots gotta hang together... -- Solitude1056,
21:02:47 08/04/01 Sat
...or we'll all, uh, hang separately. Ok, that didn't quite work
out. But all seriousness aside, I find there's three types of
philosophy showing up here, in the regular posters. Each serves
its own purpose, and every person contributes more or less of
each style, as it suits them.
1. Intellectual Style, aka "Big Words"
This is my specialty, so I get to make fun of it. Most of what
falls in this area doesn't always have much practical use, but
it sure sounds cool. Posts that require dictionaries and thesauri,
or multiple advanced degrees in theoretical sciences or philosophies,
are also covered by this style. Opponents frequently deride it
as "showing off."
2. Emotional Style, aka "Small Words"
Transposes philosophy into "how I feel," or "how
does it fit in the real world." Examples such as Spike compared
to real murderer, Angel as question of redemption for drug addicts,
Oz/Willow issue of control/fidelity in relationships. Opponents
criticize this style as "not having enough big words."
3. Spiritual Style, aka "Just Enough Words"
Don't know how to describe it. A post, or essay, with soul remembers
that it's a story with universal and specific elements, understands
the mythic elements of the philosophy and the philosophical elements
of the myth and acknowledges that there's real-life correlations
to each. Opponents don't like it cause it doesn't lead to any
inter-board arguments.
The only way I can think to put it without reducing myself to
my usual preferred style #1 is to quote Tom Bodet, who speaks
in one of his monologues about hearing a storyteller expound on
Life. And, he says, you know the storyteller's got it just right
when you find yourself nodding, and saying, "Yeah, it's just
like that."
Go ahead & count yourself as one of the Idiot Gallery - you can
sit next to me, if you squeeze in tight, there's a lot of us,
it seems. Some of us are one style, and some another, and some
a little of each, but so far every regular member has demonstrated
soul... even us idiots. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Us idiots gotta hang together... -- OnM,
22:30:42 08/04/01 Sat
Nice observations, Sol!
Or put another way:
1. Intellectual - "Life is a grand, glorious feast, it's
vast richness demands that we partake deeply of it and relish
all, from the initial teasing taste to final soul-burnishing afterglow."
2. Emotional - "Yeah, food is good and all, but don't eat
too much or you'll get fat."
3. Spiritual - "Food... is."
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Count me among 'em (the idiots that is)... --
Anthony8, 22:32:50 08/04/01 Sat
I would like be a #3, but everything comes out sounding like your
description of #1. If I provoke any kind of response, I'm usually
pretty happy. The great thing about this sanctuary, is that as
long as everybody senses sincerity in a post they are quite forgiving
when it comes to things like grammar, spelling, and ideas that
seem a little scattered (guilty here on all three counts). Seeing
how well everybody can express themselves here has really encouraged
me to put out my best effort to improve my writing skills.
When I read such well written pieces like Dedalus' essay or OnM's
Classic Movie of the Week posts, I can only sit back and think
'well done.' Okay, and then I think, 'Shite! Why can't I do that?'
Instead, I just keep rambling on and on until I have to slap myself
upside my head, pick up my guitar, retreat into a corner, and
not think or say anything for a long, long while.
To those of you who are writers (you know, people who by nature
or acquired skill are actually good at it) on this board, keep
up the good work. To those of us who struggle to express ourselves
as accurately as possible in written form, but sometimes (if not
often)fall short, keep up the good work as well. This is really
a wonderful thing we have going here!
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> It is, isn't it... -- Wisewoman, 22:47:51
08/04/01 Sat
"This is really a wonderful thing we have going here!
Truer words were never written.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> ah-hah, excellent example of the
third principle! -- Solitude1056, 22:51:35 08/04/01 Sat
Chalk up another "it's just like that."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, us Wiccans got the spirit!
In spades!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 23:01:01 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Trying to explain it to someone,
best I could come up with was 'Stone Soup' -- Anthony8, 23:29:52
08/04/01 Sat
It was kinda out of the blue, but the experience here brought
to mind the the children's story 'Stone Soup.' From what I can
remember of the story, it starts when a band of tired and hungry
soldiers wander into a village. Wherever they ask for food and
lodging they are refused because no one in the village feels that
they have anything to spare. So after many futile attempts to
secure what they need, the soldiers set up a large fire for cooking
in the center of the village. When a curious villager asks what
they are doing, the soldiers tell him that they are going to make
'Stone Stoup', a dish so delicious it can't be described. They
have the key ingredient, the stone, but they are still missing
a few items, potatoes for instance, that will make its taste absolute
perfection. The first villager, who only has potatoes to eat offers
them if he can share in the meal. To make an already long story
shorter, in the end, each villager contributes what he or she
has, (carrots, peas, parsely and so forth) until they have the
ultimate soupy taste sensation. The soldiers and all the village
people (not the 70's disco cabaret act, although that would have
made for an interesting accompanying illustration on Captain Kangaroo)
sit around the fire, swap tales, and have one incredible meal.
What the hell is my point anyway? The Internet is the village,
the soldiers are Masq and whoever the first brave posters on the
AtPoBtVS Board were, the Stone is the Jossverse, and the rest
of us here are the villagers. We each have something delicious
to contribute to the mix (a bit of philosophy here, a touch of
sarcasm there, a sprinkle of theology here, a pinch of bawdy humor
there...), but the sum is much greater than the parts. Each contribution
plays off of the others, combining, recombining, branching out,
generating an overtone or subtle note as the stew is stirred and
stirred some more. Not unlike the way the flavors in a nice big
pot of soup interact. But there's more. Behind the individual
ingredients are diverse personalities and souls that serve as
the ultimate flavor enhancer, and transform a great meal into
an event. The stone, while obviously significant since it is the
reason everybody came to the table in the first place, has given
rise to something even more substantial--a community.
Anyhow, I'm finally in the process of re-reading The Lord of the
Rings (first time in 15 years), and I'm just at the point in the
story where Frodo and his travelling companions have just had
their first meal with the elves. Oftentimes now when the discussion
here gets into that place where anything can happen, I feel like
Sam or Pippin with the elves in LOTR or one of the villagers in
'Stone Soup.' I wish I could have said it better, but that's it.
So be it.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> You did just fine.........
-- Rufus, 23:32:59 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Us idiots gotta hang together... -- Rufus,
22:51:56 08/04/01 Sat
Hey, just found this as I was starting to read that book you told
us about "The Laughter is on my Side", laughing like
hell over the beginning about Danes and churchgoing. I think soon
I may be due for that feet first entrance to church. But on the
subject of idiots and soul...I am guilty of little emotional words
as I want to make myself as clear as possible. I could never have
done a post called "Buffy is an offender with anti-social
tendancies". I'm having enough problems throwing those periods
and coma's at the screen hoping they will find a happy home. The
idea is the thing and everyone has something to contribute to
this board.......chocolate anyone???...Canadian chocolate!!!:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Make mine Purdy's Dairy Creams! ;o) --
Wisewoman, 23:07:01 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Attention.....as long as we have
drifted to Chocolate.......... -- Rufus, 23:23:52 08/04/01 Sat
No I repeat no chocolates with coconut for the First Evil aka
Masquerade.......I wonder if she has had Purdies chocolates as
of yet......she is a chocolate squisher you know.......Purdies
makes awfully bit chocolates....:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Are Purdie's chocolates Canuckian?
-- Masq, 22:47:13 08/05/01 Sun
In that case, I'm entitled to have a serving. I am half a Canuck,
after all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You haven't had Purdies
chocolates???? -- Rufus, 23:13:02 08/05/01 Sun
I assume they must be Canadian as they have always been around
where I live. They are very good....even the coconut ones......
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Think they're
only Western Canadian... -- Wisewoman, 14:30:19 08/06/01 Mon
We didn't have them in Toronto when I was growing up, but I've
sure made up for that since!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Are Purdie's chocolates
Canuckian? -- anom, 11:18:45 08/06/01 Mon
"In that case, I'm entitled to have a serving. I am half
a Canuck, after all."
Well, then you're entitled to *halve* a serving!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Gee Whiz ... -- Dedalus, 20:33:05 08/04/01 Sat
You guys are too kind. I can't believe it got up so fast! That
is just ... awesome.
And Liquidram, I hope that won't be the last thing I send in.
I'm sorry I had to send it a couple of times, but every single
time I would try to attach the file, it would keep saying "Download
Aborted! Download Aborted!" Sigh. I have no idea what the
trouble was.
I am so happy ya'll are pleased with it.
:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> better not be the last thing you send in :) -- Liquidram,
21:09:17 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Loved the essay, Ded... -- Wisewoman, 22:50:02 08/04/01
Sat
But, though I blush to say it, I always thought you were a girl!
Sorry...
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> that's just cause he throws like one. -- Solitude1056,
22:54:01 08/04/01 Sat
sorry... couldn't resist!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> You mean like the way Buffy threw that
sword at the Council guy? -- OnM, 23:09:21 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Isn't Dedalus a guy name ???? -- Rufus, 23:06:28
08/04/01 Sat
Not that I follow gender rules when it comes to names.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Well, yeah, that's the thing...I was being
open-minded about a girl called Dedalus! -- Wisewoman, 23:08:57
08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, yeah, that's the thing...I
was being open-minded about a girl called Dedalus! -- Dedalus,
10:20:24 08/05/01 Sun
I appreciate open-mindedness, but yes, it is a guy name. Stephen
Dedalus. Or Daedalus and Icarus.
And, incidentally, if I was a girl, wouldn't I be ooing and awing
over Spike or Angel and leather coats?
Just to remove any doubt as to my true gender, I think that at
some point during their epic battles in season three, Buffy and
Faith should have just broken down and started making out.
*Dedalus' eyes roll back in his head, saliva drips off his tongue*
P.S. Incidentally, I do throw like a girl. But I have a good roundhouse
kick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Hmph - fan gender & attraction
-- Solitude1056, 10:52:02 08/05/01 Sun
I think we should take a poll & determine, once & for all, if
it's true that every fan of the female persuasion is naturally
all googly-eyed over Spike and/or Angel. My sister has stated
several times that she thinks they're both pretty boring, although
she acknowledges now that JM is a damn fine actor... she still
isn't that up for the character. Her preferences lean towards
Oz and Gunn. While we're at it, go ahead & poll the males of the
board & find out just how many automatically think Buffy is the
end-all & be-all, since my housemate is adamant that he's finds
Buffy pretty LA-stereotypical, if not downright boring (although
he agrees The Body showcased SMG's abilities, he just doesn't
find her attractive). He prefers Cordelia and Anya, curiously,
and recently, Dawn.
So while we've got some adamant folks here who *are* googly-eyed
about that bleach blond, I don't think it's true of everyone on
the boards with the same set o' chromosones. Please, someone,
prove me right! ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, yeah, that's the
thing...I was being open-minded about a girl called Dedalus!
-- Rufus, 13:47:03 08/05/01 Sun
"I do throw like a girl. But I have a good roundhouse kick."
Such a coincidence......so do I. The kick and throwing that is.....:):):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Essay -- mundusmundi, 06:34:58 08/05/01 Sun
While I must confess that my favorite essay of yours remains "Oil
is the lifeblood of your car" -- the funniest post I've read
here -- this is also great stuff. Add my hosanna to the rest.
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Good work! -- OnM, 21:21:37 08/04/01 Sat
Looking forward to eventually building up a nice collection of
these on Liq's site!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Good work! -- Dedalus, 10:23:02 08/05/01 Sun
Thanks. And while I do part company with your opinion of TPM -
(comparing TPM to the Avengers is to me like comparing Buffy to
She's the Sheriff, but anyway) - your own movie reviews are excellent.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Groovy Essay -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 14:40:18 08/05/01
Sun
Impressive diversity of references there!
I agree that the mythic aspects of Buffy are probably the most
important part of the show and I have this strange idea that if
a story is told well you will always be able to find symbolism
running through it somewhere so that's the kind of analysis I
really enjoy.
+ bonus points for mentioning Artur Schopenhauer!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dark Alchemy" Chap 14 current draft on site... 15 soon!
-- Liquidram, 20:38:00 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Yeah yeah!!!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!! : -- Nina, 20:56:05
08/05/01 Sun
)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Yay!!!!!!! -- Rufus, 21:11:10 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Can I say how much I appreciate the... -- Nina, 08:34:38
08/06/01 Mon
fact that you put the new additions in blue! So easier to spot!!!!
Mostly when it's a little paragraph here and there! Thank you
so much. It was reader-friendly!!!!! :) :) :) :)
Keep the good work.
That new way to explain Marcus rituals makes me think about that
Belgium movie called "Farinelli" (1994). Set in the
17th century a boy is castrated and lied to all his life by his
brother. The brother tells him he fell from a horse and had to
be castrated when the truth is that the brother consciously made
the operation so the castra could sing his music. It's way more
complex for Marcus, but that new explanation makes him even more
endearing. Very well thought!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> but how long before I should take the font back
to black? -- Solitude1056, 08:41:14 08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: but how long before I should take
the font back to black? -- Nina, 11:45:35 08/06/01 Mon
Well it's up to you...
It doesn't have to stay blue very long as people who don't read
every day don't nead it (they'll catch the new stuff while they
read the first time). One day would be fine. It could also be
2 days in case someone missed a day. It's really up to you! I
don't want to drop too much work on your shoulders!
Science Fiction Writer Poul Anderson - Gone but not forgotten
-- OnM, 22:10:13 08/04/01 Sat
Poul (William) Anderson
November 25, 1926 - August 2, 2001
You guys may have already seen this, but if not, one of the greats
has recently left our current plane of existence. His written
works had a goodly influence on me when I was in my youth, wondering
if any of the rest of you are/were fans.
Here's a couple links courtesy of Google, for a bibliography and
some short interview excerpts from Locus magazine.
http://www.hycyber.com/SF/anderson_poul.html
http://www.locusmag.com/1997/Issues/04/Anderson.html
QUOTAGE:
*** Far from being an insignificant offshoot of the "mainstream,"
fantasy is the well-spring of
literature. It was likely the first form of storytelling, ages
before the idea of writing
existed. Certainly the oldest narratives we possess are fantasy,
tales of gods and heroes
who had adventures which could never happen in mundane life. Science
fiction of a sort
came along not much later; for example, the Odyssey. "Realistic"
novels didn't appear
until a mere thousand or so years ago, and have only become dominant
in the past couple
of centuries. Today we seem to be witnessing at least a modest
resurgence in the
popularity of the imaginative story.***
Poul Anderson
(c. 1978 from Wonderworks)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Thanks for posting this -- Cactus Watcher, 07:22:05 08/05/01
Sun
I hadn't heard. I enjoyed his "The Last Viking" series
about the historical King Harold Hardraada of Norway.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Thanks for posting this -- Tanker, 09:09:53 08/05/01
Sun
I loved the "King of Ys" series he did, about a Roman
soldier who became the king of a mythical city around the turn
of the 4th century. His historical notes were as much fun to read
as the story itself. This is indeed sad news. He was a fantastic
writer, and I use that word in both its literal and slang meanings.
Buffy, Dawn, the Slayer, and the Key -- Kerri, 23:22:03 08/04/01
Sat
Ok-my usual warning. I've got an idea-but please bear with me
cause it'll probably sound a bit incoherent but there really is
a point hidden in here somewhere.
So we know that Dawn is made from Buffy. They have the same DNA.
They aren't the same person. They had different experiences in
life and grew to be two differnt people-who share many of the
same traits and a very, very close bond.
Ok-there was a post the other day about the origin of the slayer
with regard to the info from "fray." There was discussion
of how each slayer is chosen.
We know that possible slayers can be identified by the watchers
before they are called, and that they don't have powers before
they are called. When one slayer dies the next is called. How
is the power passed from one slayer to the next? It could be that
the spirit/demon/force, whatever it is that gives the slayer her
abilities, moves to the next slayer because it, as its own entity,
identifies something in the girl that makes her the slayer. Or
TPTB control this thing and they cause it to pass to the next
slayer.
So now I have a question: is the next slayer chosen because of
her DNA(the potential that is recognisable in her) or is she chosen
by what she has become at the time in which she is called.
I kind of lead toward the first option for a few reasons. First,
potential slayers are identified at an early age. Second, if(and
this is a big if) the force that moves from one slayer to another
goes without the aid of TPTB or another outside force then perhaps
it is recognising something in the next slayer's DNA. Third, Faith.
Faith had potential. Maybe if her cercumstances had been different
she would have done her duty as the slayer. We'll never know.
But if someone like TPTB had looked at her at 16 they would have
seen how dangerous she could be. Also-Buffy is told this is her
"birth right"-she's been chosen for this since she was
born.
So if we assume that the slayer is chosen based on her DNA, based
on what she could become(what few ever do become-perhaps Buffy
has become that now-but that's for another post) and we know that
Dawn and Buffy have the same DNA then it would seem that Dawn
also has the potential to be a slayer if one is needed while she
is at the right age.
Moving on-the key.
From spiral:
BUFFY: It's not you, you know that.
DAWN: No, but it's in me.
A lot like the slayer. The key is a part of Dawn. It's in her.
Dawn's blood is the key. The key opens the portal. The key closes
the portal. Buffy's blood closes the portal. Is she the key?
If only the key can open or close the portal then Buffy and Dawn
must both be the key. They do have the same blood.
So-of course this leads to a question. When did Buffy become the
key? Was it when Dawn became human? Dawn became the key and her
blood became "the key to the key" as Glory called it.
Blood is what a person is. It represents their life. The key is
a part of Dawn. So her blood-represnting everything she is-is
the key. When Dawn became human her blood became the key-so did
Buffy's.
So if this is true Buffy was physically changed by Dawn's creation.
This would mean there is a new entity inside her.
Wow. This is all making my brain hurt! Would someone PLEASE help
make some sense out of all this.
~Kerri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy, Dawn, the Slayer, and the Key -- Wisewoman, 23:32:44
08/04/01 Sat
Okay, this is one of the things that has kinda bothered me about
the Buffy-diving-in-the-portal thing (I just use Rufus's magic
clause!), but Dawn and Buffy must have similar DNA, sibling or
mother/daughter DNA, rather than identical DNA because, hey, I'm
not a geneticist, but if they had identical DNA wouldn't that
make Dawn a clone of Buffy?...and so she would be shorter, blonder,
and, well, Buffier...and I think this is probably the longest
run-on sentence I've every created...must be time to go to bed!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I share my clauses but not my claws......:):):) --
Rufus, 23:34:07 08/04/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> DNA -- Cactus Watcher, 07:16:05 08/05/01 Sun
Yes, identical DNA would make Dawn an identical "twin."
Identical twins don't always look 100 percent exactly alike, though
they'd look a lot more like each other than Buffy and Dawn.
But, Wisewoman, haven't we seen Buffy's dark roots enough to know
her blondness comes out of a bottle? ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Case in Point -- Cactus Watcher, 08:39:43 08/05/01
Sun
Nick Brendon and his brother Kelly don't look exactly alike. You
can always tell which you are looking at in "The Replacement"
if you look close. But, since I don't read spoilers, I thought
it was just special effects till I paid more attention to the
opening credits, the second time I saw it!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I agree... -- Kerri, 09:01:30 08/05/01 Sun
I'm going to agree with Wisewoman here that this is one of those
things that really can't be explained other than the magic of
the Buffyverse. It's kind of like trying to explain how vampires
can be dead and yet alive. These are things that can't be explained
by science. We will never really understand how Buffy could sacrafice
herself. What is more important is to look at the meaning behind
the symbols. I think in this case the symbolism is all that we
can make sense of.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy, Dawn, the Slayer, and the Key -- gds, 09:06:46
08/05/01 Sun
I have always thought the slayer was chosen for her soul, not
her DNA. It has not been clearly stated, but I believe the reincarnation
is allowed in the Buffyverse. As souls develop they become candidates
to be slayers. The better slayers may sometimes be reincarnated
as new slayers (i.e. TPTB may breed slayers souls the way we breed
animal blood lines).
As for Buffy being the key, that is not necessary and probably
is not the case. Dawn's body (and other things as well) MAY have
been created based on Buffy, though it would seem the monks would
need a sample of her DNA to do so. As Cactus Watcher has pointed
out, they obviously don't have exactly the same DNA. The Key is
LIVING energy. As a living thing it would have its own life structure
- physically very different from the DNA of a carbon based life
form. How was it made human? Was an empty human shell created
and the Key poured inside its blood? That would be consistent
with what has been clearly stated, but the implications have been
that they key itself was reshaped. Inanimate energy does not die.
It can become exhausted, drained as it is dissipated, transformed
and transferred into other things. Since the Key is LIVING energy,
it is not unreasonable that it has some analogue to blood, and
this life force was used to bring down the barriers separating
the dimensions (implying the key was meant to be used one time
only, waiting for millions of years to do 1 thing at 1 time and
then die).
Part of OnM's QH hypothesis is that Buffy has the power to make
reality of the things she BELIEVES to be true. I can't remember
his examples, but they make sense. It has already been pointed
out by OnM that Buffy's being able to substitute herself for Dawn
can be an example of this power.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy, Dawn, the Slayer, and the Key -- Kerri,
10:04:31 08/05/01 Sun
I'm not sure about the reincarnation but I really like the theory
that the slayer is chosen based on her soul.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> What does that say about Faith's future, I wonder?
-- Cactus Watcher, 10:48:21 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> The Soul and DNA -- OnM, 10:50:14 08/05/01 Sun
This is a bit too involved to get into in greater detail right
now, but my working theory at the moment is that the soul is an
energy force that exists in more than our normal number of dimensions.
Sometime between conception and shortly after birth the soul energy
locates a suitable host (in a symbiotic fashion) and identifies
it by it's DNA. The energy pattern of the soul must be a reasonable
match for the pattern of the DNA, just as antibodies only work
when they 'key into' a given microorganism.
Thereafter, the extended-dimensional (XD) soul and the 3-dimensionally
limited (3D) corporeal body are as one, like a single organism.
Following along this line of thought, it seems reasonable that
Slayers are chosen on a basis of both DNA and soul components
of the symbiosis, or 3D and XD capabilities. The activation of
the new Slayer is a 'metaphysical' action occurring when the previous
Slayer dies, taking place completely along a higher dimensional
level (Trek people-- think of Roddenberry's invention of 'subspace'
to explain transporters and faster-than-light communication, etc.,
things not normally permitted in conventional '3D' spacetime).
The body cannot directly sense this action, but the soul, with
it's higher dimensional perceptibilities, can sense it. The soul's
energy, since it is intimately bound to the 3D body, then triggers
the physical changes in the Slayer's body, and she is thus 'Called'.
Anyway, that's more or less where I'm at on this. Make any sense?
It doesn't have to, of course!
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: The Soul and DNA -- Wisewoman, 11:03:14
08/05/01 Sun
Very good point, OnM. I think the DNA must be involved at some
level, simply because I don't believe souls are gendered and,
for whatever reason, the Slayer is female, so the 3D DNA body
has to be a specific one. (Why, I'm not too clear on...'cause
Joss says so, I guess!)
The compatibility is an issue as well because it would make no
sense for the soul to bond with a body that was incapable, for
whatever reason, of taking on the duties of the Slayer.
I still ponder and mutter over my issues with Joss's take on souls,
God, gods, etc, etc. I tend to tell myself that he's in the process
of figuring it out as well or...magic clause!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Huh? -- vampire hunter D, 13:24:40 08/05/01
Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Huh?...to which part? -- Wisewoman,
13:34:35 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Theory about why Buffy's blood can close the portal -- Kerri,
10:02:32 08/05/01 Sun
Now I'm not sure if this makes sense but it kind of explains why
Buffy can substitute her blood for Dawn's.
If the monks made Dawn out of Buffy perhaps they took parts of
her DNA to create Dawn just like with a mother. Instead of having
DNA from both a mother and a father Dawn has Buffy's DNA only.
Something like instead of two different copies of each gene Dawn
has only the one copy from Buffy.
So then each gene of Dawn's Buffy also posseses thus everything
that is Dawn is contained in Buffy. Becasue of this Buffy's blood
has Dawn in it and can be substituted.
It made sense in my mind. What do you think.
The Power of Myth is on Public Television Today! -- Dedalus, 10:00:01
08/05/01 Sun
It started around 11AM, and we've still got about another four
hours to go.
I figure this would be a nice complimentary segment to my essay.
:-)
Joseph Campbell is at that part now talking about that Polynesian
saying "Standing on a whale, fishing for minnows." That's
where we are kiddo.
I love Campbell. I bought the transcript for the Power of Myth
back midway through college, and as Moyers told GPTV today, it
provided a "great new spiritual vocabulary." He did
indeed. I had no idea the first showings of this had the kind
of ratings that they did - somewhere around 30 million viewers.
Wow.
I have the series on audio tape, but to see Campbell in person
again ... you just know something vital is happening.
Yeah Campbell.
I figured someone here might be interested.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public Television Today! --
Wisewoman, 10:17:15 08/05/01 Sun
I found Campbell absolutely mesmerizing in that series. I have
it on home-recorded video, but I'm hoping to be able to get it
on DVD some day (not that I have a DVD player, but I live in hopes!)
And I can't help but like Moyers, as well. He's so genuine and
well-intentioned, but there comes a point in this series where
he just doesn't get it. I forget the exact discussion, but it
comes down to Moyers saying something like, "Well, you're
a man of faith..." and Campbell replying, "No, I don't
need faith..." and then they sort of dance around the issue
of whether Campbell believes in God, and Moyers just kind of refuses
to accept that this obviously intelligent, wonderful human being
could possibly be atheistic or agnostic, and as I recall he finally
just gives up and you know that in his heart he still believes
that Campbell believes!
Gotta go check my local listings and see if we're getting it on
the Coast today.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public Television Today!
-- Dedalus, 10:29:21 08/05/01 Sun
Well, you can support public television AND get the series on
DVD for $200 today! :-)
And I love Moyers. I love what he did with Genesis, too. Another
great series. We watched some of this in Latin in college, and
I would do all these imitations of Moyers - "Why ... the
hero ... with a thousand faces?" Well, it doesn't work so
well on the net, but you understand.
Incidentally, I don't think Campbell was an atheist or an agnostic.
He believed. Maybe not in the old man who lives in the sky, but
certainly in the Paul Tillichian Ground of Infinite Being, or
as he put it, the Mystery transcendent of all human research.
Actually, it's not a matter of believing with Campbell, but just
like he said about the meaning of life, it's about EXPERIENCE.
I just love what Thomas Merton once said about the spiritual life
- it's mostly hearsay to most people.
Part of me can't help but think the twentieth century would have
been a waste of time without Campbell.
I'm gonna be out all day, but you can bet my VCR is a'running.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public Television
Today! -- Tanker, 14:17:51 08/05/01 Sun
Campbell just said something very pertinent to Buffy, on the morality
of heroics, specifically in war. He said that the morality comes
from the act of sacrifice; the hero is sacrificing himself in
defense of a people, or an idea. Something beyond himself. This
was accompanied by scenes of soldiers in Vietnam. Then, against
the backdrop of anti-war protests, he said that other people might
have the point of view that this sacrifice is something that should
not have been done, should not have been necessary. *But this
does not negate the heroism of the sacrifice, or the morality
of it.*
Campbell rocked. It's a diminished world without him. I think
he would have loved Buffy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public Television
Today! -- Anthony8, 14:41:07 08/05/01 Sun
He was particularly enamored of 'Star Wars' and George Lucas,
but I think he would have been blown away by BtVs and, in the
sci-fi vein, Deep Space Nine. IMHO, both the latter have dealt
with the mythologic motifs on so many more levels than Lucas'
work (especially by 'Return of the Jedi' which for me came close
to being more "Muppets in Space" than anything seriously
mythic). In fact, as much as I liked 'Star Wars' and loved 'Empire
Strikes Back,' throughout my viewing of that film series, I kept
thinking 'Dune for Children.'
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public
Television Today! -- Tanker, 18:09:03 08/07/01 Tue
I hope the 21st century produces someone like him, or I fear we
will again lose touch with our myths.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> One more thing... -- Tanker, 15:40:19
08/05/01 Sun
The fact that Buffy is going to be brought back also does not
negate the heroism of her sacrifice. Even if she had failed (i.e.,
if her death had failed to close the portal), her heroism would
not be negated. The act of self-sacrifice for another is heroic
by itself, independent of its actual consequences or context.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Now you are getting to just why
I liked The Gift so much....... -- Rufus, 19:31:06 08/05/01 Sun
First off I knew she would be back as part of the journey and
that had been hinted at in Restless when Giles made reference
to it being all about the Journey in Xanders dream. When Buffy
jumped off the platform I was next thing to cheering because she
was doing the right thing the heroic thing...self sacrifice for
another is heroic by itself, independent of its actual consequences
or context......I hope that this documentary (that I can't see
where I am, dammit) helps you even further see why at least I
find The Gift so wonderful. Buffy is the Blood of the Lamb, Giles
mentioned in his dream in Restless, she is the one that is sacrificed
so the world can continue...she is only a girl...something that
we keep getting reminded of.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now you are getting to
just why I liked The Gift so much....... -- Tanker, 18:04:05 08/07/01
Tue
I also see her leap as a triumphant thing, which is why I get
so frustrated with people who call her a coward. What Campbell
said was aimed at them: the fact that you disagree with her action
does not negate the heroic nature of that action. So put a sock
in it, already. Ok, I added that last bit. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I was a DVD hold out until the Kubrick Collection
came out... -- Anthony8, 12:39:49 08/05/01 Sun
...and now I'm hooked. It is a case where the software really
sells the hardware. Originally, I was going to wait until the
Buffy season sets came out (but who knows when that will happen!),
then I saw the Kubrick DVD Collection at Costco (for about $40-80
cheaper than I saw it anywhere else) and decided then and there
to get a DVD player. If you like watching movies, it's such an
incredible toy. The prices of these things are really affordable
these days too. The other day I saw a combo vcr/DVD at Costco
for $140 (US--do they have Costco in Canada?). That's pretty inexpensive
for such a relatively new technology.
DVD picture and sound quality are so much better than VHS and
you get all sorts of extras. Some are pretty creative too. I bought
a King Crimson DVD that has a feature that allows you to take
a song and create your own version by assembling performances
from different musicians and different eras for the band. For
example, you can combine Robert Fripp's 1984 live guitar performance
with Bill Bruford's 1975 drum part and Greg Lake's 1970 bass and
vocals and so on. It's really mindblowing.
As another example, in the DVD for 'Bring it On' (which, surprisingly,
was a pretty entertaining movie starring Eliza Dushku and featuring
Clare Kramer as basically cheerleader versions of Faith and Glory,
respectively), you can turn on a feature that lets you hear the
director's commentary on each scene as the movie is running (e.g.--ED
was hungover in one scene, or pointing out the subtle lighting
changes of a scene that had been composited from various takes
filmed at different times throughout the day). The DVD for 'The
Sixth Sense' has all sorts of goodies regarding continuity and
'clues' scattered throughout the film.
Even though I have the Campbell/Moyers stuff on tape, the DVD
is next on my list.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: I was a DVD hold out until the Kubrick Collection
came out... -- Wisewoman, 12:51:42 08/05/01 Sun
I had no idea they'd come down that much in price. We do have
Costco's, several of them in the Vancouver area. Even with the
exchange, that's pretty reasonable. I'm embarrased to admit we
don't even have a CD player yet. I have CDs and listen to them
on the computer! And the really dumb thing is, my new computer
has two CD drives, one regular and one burner, so I could be making
CDs of my friends' collections, if I'd thought of it. Doh! ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Another nice feature (sheez, I'm beginning
to sound like a salesman)... -- Anthony8, 13:00:19 08/05/01 Sun
...almost all the DVD players now will play CDs, CDRs, CDRWs,
CDs with MP3 files on them so you wouldn't even need a separate
CD player.
The model I bought was a Philips 702 for $160 US. It has stereo
output (to connect to your home stereo via the aux port, a set
of self-powered speakers, or your TV's stereo in if you have a
stereo TV), 2 digital outputs (for future expansion--most future
stereos will have digital inputs for a clearer sound) and 5.1
surround sound (allows you to set up a surround speaker system
with 5 speakers and a sub-woofer). To think these things were
$500 to $1000 just a year or so ago!
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Quick question, Mr. Salesman, sir....
-- Wisewoman, 13:25:59 08/05/01 Sun
We have a gigantic collection of VHS videos, both purchased and
taped, and I won't live long enough to replace them all with DVDs,
so is there a way to keep the VCR and run a DVD player as well?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh yeah, the DVD plugs in
to a separate place on the TV... -- Anthony8, 13:43:37 08/05/01
Sun
...I have both hooked up to my television. I only have a mono
TV so the sound from the DVD that comes out of my TV is in mono,
but I also have the DVD player's stereo outputs hooked up to my
stereo's aux input so I can watch the DVD and listen in high fidelity
stereo simultaneously. Alternatively, I could hook up the stereo
output to my computer speakers for another option.
At any rate, like I mentioned earlier, I just saw a combination
VCR/DVD at Costco the other day which only cost $140 US. It's
a little larger than a regular DVD player, but about the same
size as your standard VCR. With something like that you could
use the built-in VCR to record your programs (and DVDs that don't
have copy protection) and you could plug your old VCR into the
inputs on the front of the VCR/DVD combo unit to make copies (if
that's what you'd like to do) of your tapes! The combo player
also allows you to watch a DVD while you are taping a broadcast.
Which means that with the combo unit and your old VCR, you could
tape two different shows simultaneously while watching a DVD.
Niftorama!
Did any of that make sense or am I technobabbling?
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> So they have DVD/VCR
combos now? -- mundusmundi, 13:52:14 08/05/01 Sun
That's gratifying news, since it was less than a year ago I asked
this very question at Best Buy, and the salesclerk looked at me
as if I were requesting a hippopotamus with an elephant's trunk.
I've got a laptop with DVD capability, and my CTHD flick looks
fabulous on it, but I've no doubt it'll be more fun on a regular
TV screen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I've only seen
the one model so far...it must have just come out. -- Anthony8,
13:54:44 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oops--made a mistake
on the price of the DVD/VCR combo... -- Anthony8, 14:15:45 08/05/01
Sun
...I just checked Costco's website. The Go VCR/DVD combo sells
for $ 279 US. I don't know where I got that $140 figure. Anyhow,
most of the DVD (no VCR built-in) players I've seen there, including
the Philips I bought, were between $150 and $200 US.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Techno, but no babble.
Thanks! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 14:12:17 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Consider a multi-regional PAL/NTSC
DVD player -- Earl Allison, 02:13:48 08/07/01 Tue
For those of you who can't wait for the Buffy DVDs, consider a
DVD player that converts PAL to NTSC format as it plays. I managed
to pick one up on eBay that does that and plays all regions of
DVD.
Picked up Seasons One and Two, and eagerly awaiting Season Three
come Halloween -- finally, my beloved Faith on DVD!
It's not a bad idea, especially if you buy a lot of foriegn DVDs,
like anime or foriegn films.
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: I was a DVD hold out until the Kubrick Collection
came out... -- Andy, 13:26:03 08/05/01 Sun
"Originally, I was going to wait until the Buffy season sets
came out (but who knows when that will happen!)"
Late this year/early next year. We don't have an exact street
date yet, but per the chat with Fox Video Exec VP of Marketing
Peter Staddon last week, he did confirm that it would along around
that time. So, yay! I think I've been driving my friends crazy
with my whining about the delay this past year :)
Personally I had to break down and get a dvd player because I
just that sick of having to rely on VCR's, seeing brand new tapes
I was buying visibly degrading after just one or two viewings
and not even looking that good to begin with. So as soon as I
could afford it I got a new tv and a nice reasonably priced player.
I'm really impressed with this new Infinifilm imprint that just
started with Thirteen Days. You watch the movie and pop-up menus
appear that you click on and it takes you to short documentary
segments about the history behind the story or the making of the
film. Very cool. The flexibility of this technology is wonderful
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> It seems to me that the smartest marketing
move... -- Anthony8, 13:32:54 08/05/01 Sun
...would be to release the DVD's around the same time as the new
season resumes on UPN. Then again, what do I know? I only want
to spend my money--Fox just doesn't seem to want to take it from
me! An MBA must be a terrible thing to waste.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: It seems to me that the smartest
marketing move... -- Andy, 21:03:51 08/05/01 Sun
Actually the home video division has been dying to get it out
there since last year. They lose money the longer it's delayed.
But they're being handcuffed by the other parts of the company
that are forcing them to wait until the shows complete runs in
syndication, feeling that season boxsets will cut into their tv
ratings. It's not just Buffy. Every show is being tied up in these
deals.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Probably the same geniuses
who are trying to figure out how they're gonna pay taxes... --
Anthony8, 21:08:51 08/05/01 Sun
...on all those stock options that fizzled.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public Television Today!
-- Justin, 15:40:53 08/07/01 Tue
I totally agree. It was funny to see him just not get it. I don't
think it was the ONLY time he didn't get it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Hmmmm, not on KCTS Seattle or WGN Boston. Bummer! -- Wisewoman,
10:41:16 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Bummer is right I checked only to find a pledge drive
and no Myth.....:(:(:( -- Rufus, 17:28:11 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> PBS begging again...If they broadcast that documentary
on glass making again... -- Anthony8, 17:37:35 08/05/01 Sun
...I mean, are people really that interested in glass? Or John
Tesh? Or Michael Flathead's 'flaming feet'? At least here in SF,
the Suzy Orman stuff they've been broadcasting this pledge drive
was new. I might be enticed to make a big pledge if they got those
flaming feet to stomp all over the glass and John Tesh (or Yanni)
for a while, without a pledge break. I know there would be some
important mythologic imagery buried in there somewhere.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> LOL.......Flaming feet......... Yanni(he's
evil)...........:):):) -- Rufus, 19:22:41 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public Television Today! --
mundusmundi, 11:42:39 08/05/01 Sun
Thanks for the heads-up. Last quarter I gave a lecture at the
comm college where I work analyzing Campbell's theory in the context
of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Made for a lively discussion,
even if bizarrely many of the students in attendance hadn't seen
the movie.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Power of Myth is on Public Television Today! --
spotjon, 11:47:02 08/06/01 Mon
I read a little bit of the book-transcript of these broadcasts,
and I have to say that I wasn't too impressed. He just kept going
on about symbols and archetypes, as if that were all that mattered.
It was as if the stories themselves weren't important, only the
symbols and thoughts behind those stories. Maybe I just didn't
read enough of it to get a correct perspective on what he was
saying, but the whole thing seemed way too fuzzy for my liking.
I don't mind looking at symbolism and all that, but the stories
are usually just as good without needing to go into all of that.
Anybody care to tell me why he's so popular and well-liked? I
must be missing something, here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The Bill Moyers book doesn't do justice to Campbell's
work. -- Anthony8, 12:35:50 08/06/01 Mon
Unfortunately, The Power of Myth book is missing the enthusiasm
aand charisma with which Campbell conveys his insights into the
world's mythologies. In fact, he emphasized the importance of
the stories, but he was a firm believer that they were representative
of bigger truths than simply whether or not the stories were historic
facts. The Moyers interviews and books merely scrape the surface
of JC's knowlege, but are a good introduction to his work. To
really appreciate what he had to offer, you have to read 'The
Hero With a Thousand Faces' and the four 'Masks of God' books
(tackling Primitive, Occidental, Oriental and Creative Mythology).
IMO, the mistake many JC fanatics make is to view him as some
sort of ultimate arbiter as to what the myths mean. That totally
undermines his work. His point all along was to encourage people
to rediscover the vibrancy of the world mythologies by identifying
their common themes in the broader sense and seeing how they might
still relate to our own real world experiences today. He never
claimed to be the ultimate interpreter of anything. The whole
emphasis of his work was to get the reader to go back to the original
sources, investigate the sociopolitical history that was happening
at and near the time the myths were being developed, and to consider
the psychology involved when people engage the mythology through
faith or logic.
JC didn't instruct as to whether there was one correct way to
read mythology. He encouraged the reader to enjoy the stories
as literature, to appreciate their religious significance to the
people who created them, and to understand them in the context
of the world then and the world now. He was not a man of faith
(although originally raised a Catholic) so that was bound to influence
his analysis (and he pointed that out throughout his work). He
was a virtual encyclopedia of the world's mythologies as well
as the art, literature, and scientific work that was influenced
one way or another by the mythologic trends at any given time.
He was heavily influenced in his approach to mythology, by the
works of Jung, Schopenhauer (sp?), Picasso, and James Joyce.
If he had any one philosophy, it was "follow your bliss"
which has been interpreted and misinterpreted to suit many an
individual's bias. What I have acquired as a result of reading
his work is a deep interest in going to the sources (Koran, Dhammapada,
Bhagavad Gita, The Bible, etc.) and discovering what they mean
for myself. His work also prompted me to investigate philosophical
writings, psychology, and quite a bit of art and literature I
might have otherwise overlooked (I'm still hacking away at 'Ulysses').
As with any knowledge, you have to approach JC's work with an
open mind in order to get the most out of it and try not to be
offput by the hype.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> thanks for the perspective -- spotjon, 12:50:03
08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The Bill Moyers book doesn't do justice
to Campbell's work. -- Tanker, 18:21:34 08/07/01 Tue
One of the lecture series that's shown on PBS stations (the one
hosted by Susan Sarandon) includes a discussion of the works of
James Joyce. I came away from _Portrait of the Artist..._ with
an intense dislike for Joyce, but Campbell's lectures made me
reconsider. I intend to tackle _Ulysees_ myself some day. I suppose
I'll need to read Homer first. And become Catholic. ;-)
Most impressive to me was his lecture on _Finnegan's Wake_. He
had the first chapter memorized. When he spoke the words aloud,
they almost made sense (some of what look like nonsense words
are actually written in dialect, to make you pronounce them correctly;
it's meant to be read aloud, I think). He briefly went into some
of the 17 layers of meaning that each phrase had, as he put it.
Fascinating stuff, and it gave me a greater appreciation for an
author that I just didn't grok in high school English class.
Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Wisewoman, 11:14:02
08/05/01 Sun
Okay, here we go. Solitude 1056 asks two questions in a thread
further down:
1. I think we should take a poll & determine, once & for all,
if it's true that every fan of the female persuasion is naturally
all googly-eyed over Spike and/or Angel.
and
2.While we're at it, go ahead & poll the males of the board & find
out just how many automatically think Buffy is the end-all & be-all...
So, presumably you'll have to specify gender/preference when you
vote...
Wisewoman (female): undeniably attracted to Spike, no logic to
it, just animal magnetism. Angel's never done a thing for me,
and my second, very different choice would be Giles owing to his
intelligence and maturity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Cactus
Watcher, 12:02:43 08/05/01 Sun
Buffy is pretty nice, and I like shorter women, but I much prefer
them with very dark hair. Buffy is a little too much in the personality
department, too. (I guess I've had the feeling she was a little
stuck on herself ever since she shot down Xander in the first
season. Totally unfair of me, I know.)
I can think of four striking women I've seen on the show with
dark hair. How I rate them: Drusilla -forget it, not into crazy.
The lead singer of Bif Naked (in the episode when Buffy sleeps
with Parker) -forget it, great voice, but looks like a freak!
Faith - nah. Jenny Calender - we have a winner, intelligent, attractive,
nice without being sticky sweet, and a little mysterious past.
Nice combination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Thanks for reminding me, Andy! Cordelia - Ick! --
Cactus Watcher, 12:20:06 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Andy,
12:14:28 08/05/01 Sun
I'm a guy and I do very much like Buffy, although I also wish
that she could get back to her shape in the first couple of seasons.
She's looks a bit thin these days, although season 5 was a definite
improvement over the dark days of season 4. And I do like her
personality. She can be a bit controlling sometimes but I don't
hold it against her since she always has a lot on her mind.
Willow's never done much for me. She's cute but that's it. Cute.
And I don't get the attraction to Evil Willow either. She's just
plain weird and scary. I'll take Faith if I want a bad girl :)
But nowadays, if I really want to salivate over one of the girls,
I look to Anya. She just gets hotter the more human she becomes
:)
I can't comment on Cordelia since I haven't seen Angel in ages,
but that's how I feel about most of the others :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
Simplicity, 12:25:36 08/05/01 Sun
Interesting poll:
I'm 24, female, and a rabid Spike fan. I think its the whole 'bad
boy with heart' vibe he gives off. And hey. . .the leather coat,
the cheekbones, and the accent don't hurt either.
I love to look at Angel and I admire him physically as well as
his intelligence. But he's too high maintenance. I would feel
like his therapist.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll)
-- Nina, 13:16:49 08/05/01 Sun
"I love to look at Angel and I admire him physically as well
as his intelligence. But he's too high maintenance. I would feel
like his therapist."
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got me laughing so hard there! Thanks!
Uhmmmm... I'd go for:
Xander in "the Pack". That's the pheromones talking.
Can't help it, it's animal! Mate must find mate kinda thing! :)
Giles post season 2. I think I'd feel too weird about the age
difference, but if I were 10 years older a definite must!
Riley pre "The initiative". He was kinda cute when he
wasn't military guy. I love lock of hair on the forehead! Maybe
not a lusty relationship or anything, but he had "good arms"!
:)
Angel in "Angel". The energy he had playing for him
just before he kissed Buffy. For once he didn't look like a puppy!
Spike....god! No comment. Can't talk. Can't write.... bye!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> assumptions... -- dan, 12:20:02 08/05/01 Sun
i'd just like to point out that...
I am a boy, and I like boys, not girls. But it seems like you
assume that as a boy, I would like girls, and so I should be polled
on whether or not I like buffy. this would give us a false count
on buffy's charms, and throw off the data! ;->
But, yes, I do like both Spike and Angel. Spike moreso. Why? Because
Angel's lame. He's bloody stupid, and his hair sticks straight
up. :-> (Possibly the best line ever.)
Although if Willow asked me on a date, I'd probably go. Dyed red
hair rules. So does being a nerd.
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: assumptions... -- Wisewoman, 12:31:04 08/05/01
Sun
No, actually I assumed there are a fair number of GLBT fans on
this board, that's why I said gender/preference as opposed to
male/female. So your reply gets to the exact point, I'd think.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: assumptions... -- dan, 12:57:58 08/05/01
Sun
okay. i must have been confused.
I'm pretty sensitive to heterocentrism, and I do tend to look
out for "teachable" moments involving it. It's the perils
of doing activism for a livin' - sometimes the everyday gets overpoliticized.
thanks for the reassuring response!
-dan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: assumptions... -- Solitude1056, 13:49:30 08/05/01
Sun
Ok, you got me, and I should be the last to speak, being someone
who doesn't equate attractiveness automatically with "I'd
sleep with that person." The original idea was just to debunk
this notion that every female on this board is drowning in drool
after Spike & Angel, but the curiousities of what people find
attractive pretty much leaves the picky question of the attractee's
gender in the background, IMO.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- vampire
hunter D, 12:39:06 08/05/01 Sun
Actually, back in the second season, I put the Buffy females in
the order I prefer them, and it went:
1. Cordellia
2. Willow
3. Buffy
I don't have any such list now. Not only can I not decide on an
order, but I'm not sure whether to consider Dawn (I have a phobia
about prison).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Always seen Buffy as the little sister... -- Anthony8, 12:50:45
08/05/01 Sun
...that would keep me busy smacking my male friends upside their
heads for looking lustfully at her (boy that was a stilted sentence).
My first choice would be Jenny Calendar since she is closer to
my age and temperment. Dark, mysterious, brainy, strong--that's
a hard combination to beat. Plus, I have had a Robia La Morte
crush ever since I saw her in those Prince videos and that car
commercial where she speaks in Italian non-sequiturs.
Second would be Faith, against all my better judgments, because
she's just so out there. All power without a lot of bull.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- voyageofbeagle,
13:09:20 08/05/01 Sun
I'm female and it's all about Spike for me. It's interesting,
since physically he's not really "my type". He's almost
too pretty...but I'm a sucker for the cocky exterior and sappy,
tender interior. I also love Spike's enjoyment of life- it's one
of his best qualities.
Angel annoys me. Never did have much patience for brooders.
A distant second would have to be Oz- quirky, intelligent and
sweet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- BobR,
13:12:32 08/05/01 Sun
The woman on Buffy I've always found most attractive is Willow.
She's cute, but more importantly brainy. (How many people know
the square root of 841 off the top of their heads as she does?
I don't and I took a lot of math back in college.) She's the kind
of woman with whom I could have a conversation. Beyond that, she's
very passionate with the people with whom she's been romantic.
The fact that she's bisexual adds an interesting complexity to
matters.
I was never attracted to Buffy herself. She might be smart, but
she's never been a brain. What would we talk about? The others
are a mixed lot, but none really appeal to me. In real life, I
avoid people like Cordelia, especially as she was before moving
to Angel. Drusilla is too evil and crazy. Darla is too evil. Anya
is too skinny. Dawn is jail-bait. Tara appears to be completely
gay and thus out of the picture for me. Vampire-Harmony is too
stupid, too evil and too blond. Glory is too evil, crazy, powerful,
and utterly egocentric. I did like Jenny Calendar, but she's too
dead, though on Buffy, that isn't a permanent state.
I fell in love with Willow early in the first season and this
hasn't changed. I suspect that this is true for a lot of people,
especially heterosexual males like me, though not exclusively.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> We need a lezbian to poll -- vampire hunter D, 13:29:35
08/05/01 Sun
So far, we've had hetero guys, hetero girls, and one gay guy respond.
What we need now is a lezbian to get her opinion on the girls.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> You rang.... -- Nancy, 13:59:33 08/05/01 Sun
Speaking from the "lezbian" end of things,
Faith rocks!
Buffy does little for me. I like to see her kick ass, but high-maintenance,
snippy blondes aren't my thing. Cordelia also leaves me cold.
It's the personality, I think. Self-centered, rude, degrding her
own gender on more than one occasion (e.g., insulting Wesley by
calling him a "woman"). And let's not even mention Anya.
Tedious.
So, in order of attraction (speaking purely for myself):
Faith (winner, hands down, dark broody angry sexy slayer-girl)
Jenny Calender (chutzpa!)
Kate (in kick-ass cop mode, not whiney mode)
Willow (cute, and smart is sexy)
VampWillow (Watch her walk. Need.I.Say.More?)
Tara (The "Out of my mind" Magic-box scene. "Willow
hand" *sigh*)
Drusilla (when she's vamping it up)
Darla (in vampire form only. At least then she has a personality)
Lilah ("I like the girl. She's wicked")
Buffy
Not:
Joyce
humanDarla
Harmony (vamp or human, but especially not the human!)
Anya
Cordelia.
PS and if I ever crossed to the other side, which ain't likely
to happen, I'd pick Angel over Spike anyday. I just don't get
the Spike thing. Maybe it's the blonde hair. Or maybe he isn't
deep, broody, and intellectual enough. Not that I know what the
*hell* I'm talking about!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Settle for someone who's just, uh, what's a good euphemism?
-- Solitude1056, 14:09:30 08/05/01 Sun
I never was very good at politically correct, so let's be blunt:
I like all bodies, comes from being an artist & photographer.
Given 15 minutes with each character and plenty of film, I'd go
for the women in the following order:
- Jenny Calendar
- Tara
- Dawn (who cares about prison, I'm dreaming here!)
- Cordy
and the guys:
- Giles
- Wesley
- Gunn
- Xander
Just to explain: I like Evil Willow more than Faith, since Faith's
got that whole conflicted action going on - and Evil Willow is,
plainly, evil. You know where she stands - plus she's sexy and
animalistic in a way that Faith isn't. Faith had the whole in-your-face
sexuality, whereas AH played EW with a certain sensuality, something
way less pronounced and therefore way more threatening. (So I
used to be bad, I'm still drawn to that type, even if I'd never
invite her in, these days.)
& whoever said hanging with Angel would be like being his therapist
& not getting paid was right on!
I agree with my housemate that Buffy's too generic in her looks,
although she's cute. I'd take Jenny Calendar over all the rest
of them - hell, I'd pass up Glenmorangie for Jenny Calendar, and
coming from my scottish/irish background, that's saying a LOT.
Giles may be a fuddy-dud but he's had chances to show his other
sides, and wow. Be still my beating heart, and I don't care how
old he is. Xander's too goofy, but in The Pack and The Wish -
*thud*thud*thud*. Both casts contain the kinds of folks I'd hang
out with, for various reasons - but the ones I've listed are the
ones I'd give my eye-teeth to draw or photograph or, uh, okay
Rufus, if your mind's the gutter that's the right place.
[bwahahahaha.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Don't worry I'd make sure they treated you right
in prison....:):):) -- Rufus, 14:44:06 08/05/01 Sun
Yes, the Pack is the episode I remember the Grrrrowwwl Xander
from........:):):) You may place and order for a cake with a file....unless
by providence you end up sharing with Faith.....:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Awww, feel the love. -- Solitude1056,
14:47:13 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> As to euphemism... -- Wisewoman, 14:44:48 08/05/01
Sun
...I have a friend who describes himself as tri-sexual, as in,
"I'll try anything sexual!"
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Right there with ya -- Wiccagrrl, 17:40:46 08/05/01
Sun
for the women (which I tend to be slightly more attracted to)
in order:
Tara
Willow
Faith
Dru
Jenny
Kate
As for the men, mostly just Angel (what I can I say, I've got
something of a lustcase for the dark brooding one) Oh, and a bit
of a soft spot for Giles.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Eye candy is what it is. -- Deeva, 00:12:25
08/06/01 Mon
Okay, so I am a Spike & Angel fan, leaning more towards Spike
though. With him you would know exactly where you stand and he'll
most likely say what's on his mind. Also very much like the "bad-boy-but-not-as-bad-as-you-think"
thing. Angel is a little too brooding for me but hey we're just
talkin' about the pretty wrapping aren't we?
And as for the girls (really should say women but bad habit of
mine) pardon my French but I would do Vamp Willow in a minute.
Okay maybe not do but definitely kiss.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Rufus,
13:54:42 08/05/01 Sun
With the blue eyes and build Spike reminds me of family members..ewwwwwwww...plus
the personality reminds me of family members...we would bicker
like Buffy and Dawn.
Anyone who has seen my posts knows if it weren't for the age difference
I would pick Riley, not just because what he looks like but because
I like nice guys. So I would also like Giles, Wesley, and Xander.
As for Angel.....there ain't enough Prozac in the land to make
me suffer that forehead for any length of time (I kinda liked
goofy Angel & and the Angel that bought clothes)plus if the Prozac
made him happy I'd end up having to Hoover the carpet....:):):):)
If I were partial to men on the pretty side of good looking I'd
pick Lindsay and can't forget Gunn. Hmmmm answering this I find
it hard to believe I'm monogamous.:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
Nina, 14:49:25 08/05/01 Sun
"With the blue eyes and build Spike reminds me of family
members..ewwwwwwww...plus the personality reminds me of family
members..."
I'm sure many ladies on this site would love to meet your family
then! :) :) :) ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Are they up for a trip to Denmark? -- Rufus,
17:19:59 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> We'll have to ask them that I suppose!
;) -- Nina, 18:45:07 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Wouldn't that be an interesting
Road Trip........ -- Rufus, 19:32:49 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Hi there neighbour! :) (NT) -- Millan,
23:29:22 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Tanker,
14:05:41 08/05/01 Sun
Tanker, male, and I think I'm attracted to every other BtVS female
more than Buffy. I've always been a big Cordy fan, and Faith just
shorts out my brain (mmmm, Faith...). Buffy (well, Sarah really)
is a bit too thin to really get my attention (not saying she's
unhealthy, btw. I refuse to go there). There are a few promo shots
of SMG as Buffy, though, that make me go "buh." Especially
when she had the Cheryl Ladd hair in S5.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- sollig,
14:13:37 08/05/01 Sun
Aaaah...Spike! He totally butters my toast! The cheekbones, tight
little body, the wicked sense of humor and especially the sexual
energy and confidence made even more compelling by the vulnerability
and sweetness that hides just underneath really do it for me.
(Sort of like a dark chocolate truffle cake that you know is going
to be rich and decadent, then when you have a bite, it has a surprisingly
light, sweet and creamy chocolate mousse filling, the contrast
of which makes it even better. OK, now I'm hungry.) Without that
last part, I'm not sure the physical alone would suffice, since
I usually prefer tall men. (And I really didn't find Riley that
attractive. Angel is handsome, but he just doesn't have that Spike-y
fun.) I can't even come up with a second!
On the female front, I'd have to say that I find Willow and Tara
most attractive. I'm not a lesbian or bi, but if I were, I'd pick
Willow because she's just so smart and kind, with an aborable
smile, red hair that's not too big and coiffed and pretty eyes.
Tara is beautiful in another way--she's got a soft, gentle look
and personality--big, sort of sad eyes, full lips and an actual
womanly figure compared to the others.
How about that? I always think it's interesting to ask women and
men who they'd be attracted to if to if they were not the sexual
orientation they are in real life (or just who they find attractive)
because the answers are often different or, if the same, for different
reasons. Anyone else want to answer that way. (I hope that doesn't
mess up your poll Wisewoman, but thought it was an interesting
twist.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
Wisewoman, 14:22:39 08/05/01 Sun
Ah, no, an interesting twist is always welcome. But you've just
about brought my whole being to a shuddering halt here, because
if I were to be attracted to one of the females in the Buffyverse
it would be...wait for it...Faith! Arrrrgh! What the hell is that?
I went through that whole big thing last week about never being
able to forgive her and just not seeing the attraction, and then,
wham! When faced with a choice constrained by one gender, she'd
be my choice. Cheekbones be damned, I'm thinkin' I need therapy!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
sollig, 14:30:00 08/05/01 Sun
Okay, I know I am blinded to all others when Spike's on my mind,
but when I went back and read some other posts I realized I do
have to admit attraction for the following (albeit for more physical
reasons):
Lindsey has a certain sexual magentism at times and very, very
sexy lips.
Gunn also has a very kissable kisser and he has a beautiful bald
head (which may sound odd, but some people just don't have cute
craniums: think Star Trek and those bald brainiac guys with the
pulsing veins. And my husband, I swear to god, has a ridge on
top of his giant skull that feels like it might look like a Klingon
head if he were to lose all his hair. Yikes!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Bald men -- Millan, 14:47:00 08/05/01 Sun
...some people just don't have cute craniums.
I know what you mean. Not all men look good without hair.
Ever since I was young I have had a small crush on the actor Yul
Brunner (dead many years now). A small, bald man, he still was
very sexy! (Now there's a real age difference.) :)
/Millan
"And I never really liked you anyway. And you have stupid
hair!"
- Spike, No Place Like Home
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Jean-Luc Picard...say no more! ;o) --
Wisewoman, 14:59:17 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Bald men -- Liquidram, 15:17:34 08/05/01
Sun
Despite popular opinion, my favorite X-files character has always
been Skinner. The male physique doesn't get much better and the
actor himself is quite fine without the glasses and stuffy duds.
And his voice.... don't get me started on voices.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Voices....mmmmmmmmm -- Rufus, 17:21:31
08/05/01 Sun
I love a good voice, can make up for some of the little things......:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> oh yeah.... -- anom, 16:15:20
08/06/01 Mon
Voice is more important than looks for me...preferably towards
the low end of the range but with enough "treble" to
give it character, smooth but w/a little grit in the bass, rich
but not too rounded...makes me want to just close my eyes & let
it wash over me....
Uh, where was I? @>) Hey, how about voices on Buffy? ASH, definitely,
but after that I gotta think...none of the other regular characters,
strangely enough. But remember that demon in Angel's hotel that
drove people to do horrible things? Mmmm, what a voice (but where'd
the Southern accent come from?). Couldn't figure out in the credits
who the actor is--anybody know?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Bald Men: Mitch Pileggi (Skinner)
-- Vickie, 09:51:14 08/06/01 Mon
I saw Mitch Pileggi in person in a sidewalk cafe in Hawaii. The
X-File folks don't do him justice, keeping him in suits and glasses
like that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Bald Men: Mitch Pileggi
(Skinner) -- Wisewoman, 15:07:58 08/06/01 Mon
They let him run around in an undershirt and shorts in one episode,
the one where he was hallucinating about seeing an old woman in
red everywhere, I think. I got the shock of my life--I thought,
OMG, there's major HUNK under those suits!!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll)
-- Rahael, 16:44:30 08/06/01 Mon
Ooh my turn.
Rahael (female)
No one's picked Angel yet? I'm quite happy having him all to myself
! LoL. I go for dark looks all the time, as you may guess from
the list below.
After that, Wesley and Gunn.
Personality wise, they are all smart, sensitive, courageous, and
know how to take care of them selves in a tough situation.
I could never be attracted to - Spike, Xander. Don't know why,
just don't. I like their characters.
If I were to say who the most attrative women were: Buffy and
Cordelia. I like their attitude, I think they are beautiful and
not too cute and clingy. Plus they wear great clothes (most of
the time). Would prefer it if both were more 'intelligent' in
the conventional sense i.e reading books etc.
I like the fact that Willow is clever, I adored shy Willow, but
to be honest that little girl voice recently annoys the hell out
of me. I like Tara though, but the fact that she's with Willow
detracts from the character.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Liquidram,
14:16:23 08/05/01 Sun
Angel: The only time he is physically attractive to me is when
the tiny little smirk is trying to play on his face.
Spike: Love the character especially when he is vunerable, not
the look. (James, however.... stunningly beautiful)
Lindsey: Gorgeous... more to him than meets the eye. Heard he
is coming back... can't wait... (oh yea, lose the suits and keep
the jeans and tshirt.)
Gunn: Beautiful man. Great lines. More Gunn.
Doyle: Great character made him attractive....was totally bummed
when he died.
Xander: Too goofy for me but has his moments.
Giles: Love Giles .... especially in The Gift.
Riley: Sweet at the beginning, baby face on a buff bod.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> forgot poor Wesley ... -- Liquidram, 14:19:12 08/05/01
Sun
hmmmm... tough, scruffy, fighting Wesley - good; sanctimonious
Wesley - ish.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The Gals -- Liquidram, 14:31:39 08/05/01 Sun
Buffy: nah, too thin, too valley-chick like (preferred SMG in
Cruel Intentions)
Willow: Love her brains, hate the babygirl whiney voice.... drives
me insane. Alas, never saw Evil Willow.
Tara: My favorite female on the show. Amber Benson is beautiful
so God knows why they frump her up on the show. Can't wait to
see Tara's potential.
Cordelia: Hard to say. Sometimes she looks great, and others,
well... she doesn't. I like the characters snarkyness although
I would dislike her in the real world. Haircut- yuck.
Jenny: Never knew Jenny :(
Anya: Like Emma Caufield alot, Anya grates on me.
Kate: Liked her strength and her interaction with Angel at the
end. To bad Law and Order came a callin'
Lilah: Will be very interesting to see what she's made of without
the Lindsey competition... think she saw him in a completely different
light when he protected her in his last ep.
Dawn: Didn't care for her at first - too much the brat, loved
her interaction with Spike and eventual strong bonding with Buffy.
Faith: Love Faith. She is gorgeous, feisty attitude and great
moves. The fight and breakdown on Angel was classic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Millan,
14:20:54 08/05/01 Sun
Well, I'm female and like males. I don't like pretty as in "perfect",
but fairly pretty, self-assured and charismatic is everything
when it comes to drool-factor.
So, I join the majority here (?) by declaring that Spike is Number
One, the one and only, the most male of the... [uh-ooh] ... after
my SO, of course!!!
On a distant second place I would be hard put to choose between
Giles, Xander posessed by a hyena spirit and Angelus.
Giles is a bit too solid and old for me, but he is attractive,
he is self-assured, and we all know he has these depths...
I normally don't like Xander (male-wise) but in The Pack he gains
that special something.
Angel is kinda pretty but not exciting. But ladies, just watch
Angelus' half-smile when he is hidden and watches Buffy fighting
in the cemetary (beginning of Becoming )... I get chills...not
the bad kind... :)
/Millan
"...I hate being obvious. Being all fangy and 'Rrrr'. Takes
the mystery out."
- Spike, The Initiative
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Lurker
Becoming Restless, 14:21:34 08/05/01 Sun
I'm male and I have to put in a vote for Faith - intelligent,
confident about her body (urm, yeah) and just a little bit tortured
(but, then, as a miserable git I am unduly suspicious of happy
people). I'd probably have Dawn second (remember that she is only
two years younger than me!) and aside from that my list would
be identical to Nancy's - weird.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
Simplicity, 14:54:31 08/05/01 Sun
I'm not a lesbian or bisexual, but if I had to choose. . .I'd
pick Faith. She's beautiful (I want her hair by the way), powerful,
and has a lot of attitude.
I thought I was the only one who thought about Xander in "The
Pack"! Nice to know that someone else out there feels the
same way. I've haven't thought about him in that way before or
since that episode.
Any body else had a 'thing' for a character you normally don't
find attractive in a particular episode?
I'm putting in a bid for Giles in "Band Candy". Probably
because he turned into a human Spike.
Angelus is another matter. Much more attractive than guilt-ridden,
angsty Angel. I know he's evil, he's ruthless, and he'd probably
kill you as soon as look you. . .but the leather pants, that little
smirk on his face, and that confident swagger of his. . . Yum!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> How does one swagger one's ...Yum? LOL! -- Wisewoman,
15:01:04 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> ok, now I got the Bee Gees in my head... --
Solitude1056, 15:06:58 08/05/01 Sun
I blame seeing "Saturday Night Live" (and not just once)
on my mother, who was totally agog over Travolta - not the whole
movie, mind you. Just the part where he's walking down the street.
He could, as she'd say, strut.
And some folks can swagger - DB/Angel(us) can swagger. But I ain't
yet seen him strut! Faith, on the other hand...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Travolta ... talk about a turn-off ...
(MHO) -- verdantheart, 07:16:37 08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> What, no takers on the Host? Sheesh. -- Solitude1056, 14:45:53
08/05/01 Sun
That voice! ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> You are so right! -- Liquidram, 15:22:58 08/05/01
Sun
Can that man sing! And if anyone has ever seen Andy Hallet, the
man under the green ain't too shabby.
And I can't believe I forgot Oz. Seth Green. 'nuff said.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- mm (mundus
& male), 14:52:30 08/05/01 Sun
First choice: Hate to go with the in-crowd, but Jenny Calendar
hands down. Every computer geek's dream. Plus my predilection
for older women. (At least she was older when I was younger.)
Second choice: Just to buck convention, Gwendolyn Post. Played
by Selena Scott Thomas, Kristin's even more attractive sister,
and quite fetching in an evil dominatrix sort of way.
Third choice: Dawn in 4-5 years. Technically an older woman, "just
this side of forever," right? Smart, cute, and wicked eyebrows.
(Hey, if rowan can have her cheekbones....)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- VampRiley,
15:22:19 08/05/01 Sun
As for "...automatically think Buffy is the end-all & be-all...",
I would have to say never. All the women are except Dawn. She's
cute. I'm just, you know, not drawn to 15 year old girls. And
for the record, to me Tara is much hotter as a Brunnette (i.e.,
Into The Woods).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Noticeable lack of Buffy votes -- Wisewoman, 15:33:50 08/05/01
Sun
Hmmm, the Buffster does not come out at the top of the list, regardless
of gender and/or preference. What's the deal with that? The whole
show is about her!
Is it the mythical hero thing? Is she just too focussed and heroic
to be attractive/accessible? Someone you'd want to have as a friend/protector,
rather than a partner?
Beats me... :o|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Noticeable lack of Buffy votes -- Malandanza,
15:59:23 08/05/01 Sun
"Hmmm, the Buffster does not come out at the top of the list,
regardless of gender and/or preference. What's the deal with that?
The whole show is about her!"
"Is it the mythical hero thing? Is she just too focussed
and heroic to be attractive/accessible? Someone you'd want to
have as a friend/protector, rather than a partner?"
I'll vote for her, if just by process of elimination (I'm ruling
out the vampires -- soulless creatures aren't much better than
Spike's sexbot):
Anya: Too vulgar
Cordelia: Too materialistic
Dawn: Too young
Faith: Too scary (even after reforming, if she has, the girl still
frightens me)
Jenny: Too dead
Kendra: Too deferential (Imagine Kendra as a girlfriend, walking
two paces behind you, speaking only when spoken to and never meeting
your gaze -- it would be embarrassing! -- what did the watchers
do to her?)
Tara: Shy and insecure is sexy -- up to a point (Kendra is excessive)
-- she's number two on my list
Willow: I agree with Liquidram here, Willow's whiny voice, use
of baby-talk and self-involvement suggests that she needs a baby-sitter
more than a boyfriend/girlfriend
So Buffy comes out on top of my list -- plus she probably wouldn't
expect too much out of a relationship given her track record.
Too bad she's blond :(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Blonde is only a colour on a box.....SMG is
brunette.....:):):) -- Rufus, 17:25:14 08/05/01 Sun
If that helps......she's lovely either way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- d'Herblay,
15:37:50 08/05/01 Sun
Male. Het. Incoherent.
a. Starting in October, I think I'm going to be the world's biggest
Fred fan. Amy Acker cleans up real good!
b. Absolutely love Cordy. Tactless is attractive in my book. Plus,
early in S2, I caught Charisma's appearance on the "Keenan
Ivory Wayans Show." Ok, the deep decolletage may have had
something to do with my fascination, but I prefer to think it
was the way she defused Keenan's lame joke about also being named
for a scented product. "Oh, right. Ivory soap," she
said, which made Keenan's stupid skit about "Keenan-brand
Feminine Hygiene Product" seem even more witless than it
actually, absolutely was. I think it achieved a wit deficit.
c. Lilah has classic lines and great lips. I guess we've now determined
what keeps me watching Angel.
d. Buffy. In and out of love with Buffy. Think it varies with
the hair style. Loved the first-season 'do, though they over-stuffed
her bra. Second season was just right. Third seemed over-processed.
Let's not talk about the body wave in S4. S5 is getting back on
track, though I still miss the "big bangs and short skirts"
days back at the high school.
e. Jenny Calendar was always a thrill--but that may have had something
to do with memories of Robia in the video for "Gett Off,"
as well as playing Brandon's Mrs. Robinson on 90210, and her role
as a psychotic puppeteer on (dare I say it?) Silk Stalkings.
f. Drusilla gives me chills. Sociopathic is attractive in my book.
g. Willow I never got. She's supposed to be smart, but early on
Joss more told us she was smart than showed us. The lack of self-confidence
was a turn-off. Turn her pupils black, though . . .
h. I do love Tara though. Shyness can seem mysterious. I love
her more than the stylists do, apparently.
i. Darla was far more appealing when she was on just every other
season. Familiarity is breeding contempt.
j. Anya. Blah.
k. Thought Sandy was beautiful. Would I consider Riley a murderer
had he staked Harmony? Probably not.
l. She wasn't real, but April had the body type I find most attractive.
m. What's up with Joss and wall-eyed chicks? First Kate, then
Glory. Never could be attracted to someone who reminds me of Carl
Reiner in The Jerk.
n. Oh yeah! Ampata. Yum!
o. Faith always looked a little too beat down by life for my tastes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Slayrunt,
17:30:07 08/05/01 Sun
I have always had a thing for Willow and Evil Willow just makes
it better.
Jenny is my second choice. Smart,sexy ahhhhh.
Darla is hot, but I would have to lose my soul so...
If we are just going by looks then Cordy's next, otherwise Buffy
then Cordy
Tara is a very beautiful woman.
Anya is hot but a little quirky.
Dawn will be high on the list in a few years.
Have to agree with d'Herblay, Fred will enter list very high
And to go with sollig sugestion about opposite sexual pref.
Spike leads the list. goodlooking and funny and caring.
Angel
Linsey
Westley
Xander
Giles
Riley
Gunn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Kerri,
17:48:59 08/05/01 Sun
I've always liked Angel. He just seems so sweet and also really
sexy, and I'd love to have him for a boy friend. Spike as a character
isn't really my type-i dont go for bad boys-but JM is so hot!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- LadyStarlight,
18:13:46 08/05/01 Sun
Guys:
Spike (who else?) - the whole bad boy w/heart just gets me every
time (plus the cheekbones & all...)
Angel - broody guy just makes me want to cheer him up (not too
much though), and goofy Angel ALWAYS makes me giggle
Giles - smart, sexy, confident, whoo boy!
Wesley - in a few years (see Giles)
Girls:
hmm, probably Cordelia (post Sunnydale) or Tara
(really need to get out of the house more ;))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The Results so far... -- Wisewoman, 18:23:41 08/05/01 Sun
FEMALE VOTES FOR MALES:
Spike (5) --Wisewoman, Simplicity, voyageofbeagle, sollig, Millan
(and keep in mind we haven't heard from rowan, Marie, Aquitaine,
Little One, etc!)
Angel (2) --Wiccagrrl, Kerri
Giles (1) --Solitude1056
Riley (1)--Rufus
Xander (1)--Nina(?) I think, might be Spike?
MALE VOTES FOR FEMALES:
Jenny (3)--Cactus Watcher, mundusmunid, Anthony8
Willow (3)--dan, BobR, slayrunt
Anya (1)--Andy
Buffy (1)--Malandanza
Cordelia (1)--Tanker
Faith (1)--Lurker Becoming Restless
Fred (1)--d'Herblay
FEMALE VOTES FOR FEMALES:
Faith (3)--Nancy, Wisewoman, Simplicity
Jenny (1)--Solitude 1056
Tara (1)--Wiccagrrl
Willow (1)--sollig
MALE VOTES FOR MALES:
Spike (2)--dan, slayrunt
And while Spike seems clearly to have triumphed in the polls,
this proves once again that the Buffyverse provides something
for everyone!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Make that *6* for Spike... -- Wisewoman, 18:32:23
08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Forgot the female.... -- Nina, 18:59:06 08/05/01
Sun
If I'd go for women.. I think I'd love Ampata too. She was adorable.
Though Willow in the same episode was just eatable as an esquimo!
:) And I have to say that Fred will probably be the reason why
I'll still watch Angel next year! Very lovely.
You seemed to wonder if it was Spike or Xander... Hard to say
really. Xander in the first two season (mostly the pack and also
B2) would have catched my attention in real life. Spike on the
other hand catches my attention in fiction land! Pick the one
you prefer! :) Can't make a choice!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> You're only counting one vote per gender per person?
-- Solitude1056, 19:20:55 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Yup, all the also-rans got me way too confused!
-- Wisewoman, 19:44:08 08/05/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Highly Statistical and Scientific Results -- Solitude1056,
20:33:39 08/05/01 Sun
Ok, using a complicated process - known as "highest score
gets 10, going on down the list (when folks gave more than one
choice)" - I came up with these results, roughly... and no,
I gave up on trying to keep Angel/Angelus or Xander-Pack/Xander-regular
separate, or keeping folks' genders separate. Those, go see WW's
post. ;-)
Male Characters:
spike 96
angel 91
giles 88
xander 48
gunn 35
riley 33
wesley 32
lindsey 25
oz 9
doyle 7
Female Characters:
faith 103
willow 73
tara 67
cordy 62
jenny 60
buffy 41
fred 32
dawn 28
kate 20
dru 17
lilah 17
darla 16
anya 14
I didn't count all the additional ones like Ampata or Gwendolyn
Post, sorry - just the major ones.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Hey, Sol! -- Wisewoman, 17:55:02 08/06/01 Mon
If you get a chance, can you update the scientific version of
the results? I figure we've heard from everybody that's gonna
vote by now...
Thanks!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Doable, Not Doable -- JBone, 20:35:46 08/05/01 Sun
In no particular order, Doable:
Buffy - 2 scenes spring to mind, making Angel jealous by doing
a sexy dance with Xander at the Bronze in WSWB, and a certain
scene in BBB. Buff, for the love of god, don't take off that raincoat.
Willow - I'll always remember the first time Willow tramped herself
up in Halloween. Two words, "nice."
Cordelia - This poor girl seems to be cursed to look incredibly
sexy no matter how she changes her look. She won the gene pool.
Anya - She talks with a strange evenness, and chooses her words
a shade too precisely, but this guy likes that.
Tara - I'd throw a hump into this doe-eyed babe anytime.
Jenny - The kind of girl that I could really fall hard for.
Kendra - Think she'd do any modeling? Cause I have a friend with
a camera. Strictly classy stuff.
Joyce - She can leave her bra in my car.
Faith - That dance scene at the Bronze in Bad Girls. Her and Buffy...
Oh yeah, that's the stuff.
Darla - This chick, vamp or not, works it.
Detective Kate - But only if I had the power.
Lilah - I'll never understand why Lindsey waited until the last
time he saw her to goose her ass.
Harmony - But only in a "do her and get it out of my system"
kind of way.
I did leave a few for the list of Not Doable:
Druscilla - This is probably more of a tribute to the acting and
writing, but she just gives me the wiggins.
Amy - For some reason, she annoys me. I don't understand it. Why
does she annoy me and the rest don't?
Chantarelle/Lily/Anne - Two damn many names, does she have this
many personalities?
Dawn - I'll wait and see how she develops.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Getting weird now. -- Squonk's Tears, 20:40:35 08/05/01
Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Buffy said weird love is better than no love...but
I don't think that's what she meant! @>) -- anom, 20:35:33
08/07/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Vonnie,
21:37:18 08/05/01 Sun
Newbie here. Like the place.
Vonnie (female): Season 5 Spike's what sucked me into BtVS, so
Spike it is. I've always liked the underdog anti-hero types. Jame
is pretty but not usually my type physically; it's the layers
that James adds to Spike the character that make him so appealing
to me. Although, if a formerly blood-sucking serial killer suddenly
professed his undying love to me (hey! It could happen!), I would
probably run screaming to the opposite direction.....
Angel is too much of a hunky beefcake (I'm little, so there is
also the whole squash-factor ), not to mention that the hair gives
me the wig. The rest of the menfolks are all easy on the eye,
but I get relative-ish vibes from Xander, Giles, Wesley and Gunn.
Riley and Ben are blander than vanilla pudding. I'd rather do
the wacky with the Host.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
JoRus, 22:20:31 08/05/01 Sun
Spike-one of my fav characters. Men who make me laugh or think
get points. Love the character, doesn't make my pulse race. A
very intense actor that conveys emotion well.
Angel-He sometimes interests me as a character...but nothing there.
A bit whitebread.
Giles-You'd have something to talk about at least. And he looks
like he works at things. Until he gets them right. Hmmm. Yes,
there's possibilities.
Wesley-we'd end up playing cards. I just know it.
Host-Now my curiosity is roused....hmmm definitely not whitebread...but
I think maybe we'd be shopping together. I'd sure be curious about
the details...is he green all over? Scaled?
Buffy-Poor Buffy seems to be trying to be the very definition
of whitebread...even when the script is sexualized, there's some
distance...prolly what makes her dialogue with Spike so interesting,
and with Riley so bland. Is she too good a girl, or just written
that way?
Faith-there's a good time on two legs, though the words "acting
out due to sexual trauma" do tend to ring away in my head.
And, she has a great mouth.
The rest of them? No.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Jo.....where you been? -- Rufus, 23:10:03 08/05/01
Sun
Now would you like Angel a teensy bit better if he bought you
clothes? As for the green all over for the Host...you could always
ask... Giles, I always like Giles....and exactly what type of
cards would you be playin with Wesley?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> knowing this crowd ... -- purplegrrl,
11:01:39 08/06/01 Mon
... probably strip poker!!
;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> I see you have joined me in the
gutter Sol shoved me into....:):):) -- Rufus, 14:49:44 08/06/01
Mon
Can't possibly be cause I have a naughty mind...no no...not me.:):):):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Don't even. We're wise to
you, Rufus! ;-D -- Solitude1056, 19:56:13 08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Jo.....where you been? -- JoRus, 16:02:31
08/06/01 Mon
Ah, I don't check the boards much in the off season, guess I'm
awaiting new fodder for discussion in the fall.
Definitely not strip poker with Wesley....I intensely identified
with Wesley in the scene where Cordy asks if he has talked to
Angel about his feelings...and Wesley says "I brought him
tea!". There is no funky to get down with in Wesley, thus
cards. Bridge? Bleeeh.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Shaglio,
05:43:25 08/06/01 Mon
Ok, this is easy:
Male/27/ I think Buffy is attractive and Cordelia is fun to look
at, but I'm obsessed with redheads and therefore Willow is my
dream girl. She's the reason I started watching the show (sad
and pathetic, I know). A close second would be Darla (without
the Vampface) because she can be soooooo sensual. I'm now drooling
like Homer Simpson.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
Shaglio, 06:10:50 08/06/01 Mon
Okay, I realize I tend to be a bit short winded in my responses.
I've always been terse in my speech (brevity is wit), but I'll
try to elaborate a little more on my answer.
Willow - aside from the red hair, she just looks so cute. She's
not supermodel hot like Cordelia is; she's just that "girl
next door" adorable. And while I'm at it, I'll take Tara
too. I've always been intrigued my lesbianism.
Darla - She has a little bit more of the supermodel look to her
than Willow and she has the maturity essence of an older woman
for me. Plus some of her scenes with Angel are quite steamy. Rrrowwwrrrr!!!!
I'm attracted to Dru in a weird sort of way. For some reason I
find her mad ramblings sexy. Don't ask, I'm just a bit loony.
I also have this strange attraction to Dawn. Not in the sexual
way (I'm not a pedophile). I can't explain it; it's sort of the
way Willy Conway was attracted to Marty in Beautiful Girls. If
you haven't seen the movie, I recommend it highly.
I'm not gay so I don't know what I'd look for in a guy, but Xander
is quite similar to myself in a lot of ways (goofy, sincere, not
extremely confident) so I'd probably be attracted to him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll)
[3rd times the charm] -- Shaglio, 06:19:28 08/06/01 Mon
And how could I forget the girl on Angel who runs the runaway
shelter. I can't remember her name though. Anne?
I also thought Wesley's rich girlfriend who he pretended to be
Angel in order to protect was attractive as well.
Alas I never got to see this Jenny Calander that so many are talking
about :(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- dream
of the consortium, 07:23:45 08/06/01 Mon
Giles. Without question Giles. The soft, gentle voice, the accent,
the intelligence, the subtle strength, the dry wit, the understated
warmth. Dreamy. And he has nice hands.
Spike is number two. Lust for life, very enticing.
But, oh, Giles.....
Faith is the most beautiful of the women, but that street-tough
act is really annoying. Still, if I could look like one of the
actresses, I would pick her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- verdantheart,
07:41:08 08/06/01 Mon
As usual, I'm late (must get home Internet connection back up
...), but I figure I must weigh in. For the record, I'm female
and strongly hetero (so sorry, not qualified to comment on the
ladies).
Sadly, I find myself going with the majority (an uncommon situation
for me!) and choosing Spike as most attractive. I'm a sucker for
expressive males. The fact that Mr. Marsters is physically attractive
intensifies the effect, but if he didn't have the expressiveness,
it wouldn't matter how pretty he was.
Gotta say, most of the other male characters don't do much for
me in the attraction category. Angel has rather a sexy mouth,
but I got over that in a week or two. I think I might like to
hang out with the Host, he's funny and we'd have lots to talk
about (and the green, horns, & red eyes don't bother me), but
he'd be more of a friend type.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Rattletrap,
08:27:21 08/06/01 Mon
OK, time to weigh in:
25yo/hetero male, just so you know . . .
Probably Willow, smart and girl next door cute. Alas, never got
to see evil Willow, so I can't comment there.
Tara (if she were straight), would be really cool, except that
she seems to have done something to offend the make-up and costuming
people. AB is really an attractive woman, why must they insist
on hiding it.
Like d'Herb, I have to look forward to seeing Fred next year,
I suspect she does clean up pretty nice, and she has gorgeous
blue eyes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) --
John Burwood, 11:12:14 08/06/01 Mon
I am male, and I think you can deduce my vote from the fact that
my bedroom wall has a current Sarah Michelle Gellar calendar on
it. Last year's is on my study wall. Intelligence of the actress
supplements the mix of strength and vulnerability in the character
of Buffy which I simply can not resist!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- purplegrrl,
11:11:52 08/06/01 Mon
My first choice is always Angel. Sorry, gotta go for tall, dark,
and handsome. Besides he defends the weak and actually reads books
(a plus for a guy to my way of thinking)!
Second choices:
Giles - closer to my age; reads; interesting conversations are
likely (besides, I've like ASH since the Tasters Choice commercials)
Wesley - also reads; needs a good woman
Lindsey - seriously hidden depths
Spike - Okay, I confess, it's that bad-boy vibe -- and think of
the blonde children potential!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I don't think bleach affects the genes ... -- verdantheart,
10:46:48 08/08/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: I don't think bleach affects the genes ...
-- purplegrrl, 15:07:13 08/08/01 Wed
JM's natural hair is light to medium brown - so it's possible.
(Besides, *is* there a natural blonde on the show?? Not to be
catty or anything. ;-) )
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: I don't think bleach affects the genes
... -- Isabel, 17:29:14 08/08/01 Wed
I don't know, but Anthony Stewart Head's hair color is still a
dark sandy blond from the coffee commercials. I don't remember
it changing, but it could mean he's got a good hair dresser or
my memory's faulty.
What's Amber Benson's real hair color?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> what a sordid pot of lust this has become -- spotjon, 12:19:59
08/06/01 Mon
Really, you should all be ashamed of yourselves, treating these
actors and their characters as pieces of meat. Not something I'd
expect to find on this board. It must be a really long summer.
;-P hehe.
Having said that, Faith and Evil Willow are the only two characters
on this show that I've ever found attractive for more than a few
episodes (even though E.W. was only in two, oh well). Human Willow
would be fun to hang out with, Buffy would probably annoy me to
the point of me trying to stake her, Anya the same, Cordelia not
so much anymore (she's really matured). Honestly, most of the
female characters on these shows would be so annoying if you met
them in real life, but it's easy to distance yourself from that
when they're stuck in the screen of your television set. I feel
more pity and sympathy for Faith's character than attractiveness,
now, but I would love to see how she turns out the next time we
see her. It's just so encouraging to see someone with such a troubled
background start to move beyond her past. It is too bad that it
doesn't happen more in real life. Too many people just stay trapped
in the past, and refuse to belief that they can let it go.
Hmm, I'm off-topic, but I don't care. I just can't stand topics
like these, no offense intended (though probably communicated).
I don't feel that it's right to be lusting after somebody who
isn't your spouse, or at least who will be soon. I'm sure that
most of you disagree with that, but hey, I got a right to my own
opinions, right? :-) Waiting for the backlash....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> And we must outlaw dancing, and all our children must
know the proper use of guns! ;o) -- Ashcroft the Evil, 12:40:31
08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> hey, I like dancing... not so sure about guns,
though -- spotjon, 12:43:23 08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Children dancing with guns is okay as
long as no trigger locks are used. -- Ashcroft the Evil, 13:00:47
08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Okay, here goes... -- rowan, 07:30:44 08/07/01 Tue
I'm female & heterosexual. I'm intellectually attracted to Spike
and Giles (well, of course, they're hot, too, but it's the intellectual
thing that keeps them interesting for me). None of the other guys
do anything for me (well, Lindsay has some animal magnetism, but
not enough to really attract me). I might like Xander as a brother,
though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Okay Grabby, itellectually????..sure...:):):):):)
-- Rufus, 09:26:48 08/07/01 Tue
At least you added the 'hot' part of your attraction...:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> saved -- Justin, 15:38:12 08/07/01 Tue
To post my opinion, a hundred years late...
I'm heterosexual, but I guess I'm backing up Rowan with a TOTALLY
intellectual attraction to Spike. Willow and Buffy would cute
me to death. (Willow -- "I don't want to be a gun. Can't
I be a chisel? or a cudgel?") And Buffy has never read a
book. It would drive me nuts.
Oh WAIT! I don't have to vote for Spike! I cast, that I've seen,
the one and only vote for the Buffy-bot. ooh la la. I KNOW she
hasn't read any books either but something about the way she says
"sexy wounds."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> That was the *real* Buffy that said, "sexy
wounds" ;o) -- Wisewoman, 16:11:43 08/07/01 Tue
Albeit, she was imitating the 'bot!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: That was the *real* Buffy that said,
"sexy wounds" ;o) -- justin, 17:41:08 08/07/01 Tue
and it was a blast right on immitation. Uncanny.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Sheri,
15:41:55 08/07/01 Tue
Ok, I'm a hetero girl. Like most everybody else, I find Spike
very sexy, mainly because he is such a multifacited character...
but honestly, he's usually not the type I'd go for physically.
(I like guys to have a little more meat on their bones). Still,
the cheek bones and accent (so what if it's fake?) make him very
tastey. Now, if this was real life... I'd probably have an insane
crush on Giles (I've gotten the hots for just about every male
college professor I've had, so I imagine I'd get quite googly-eyed
if I ever talked to Giles), I would be dating Xander, and I'd
be picturing Spike's head on Angel's body during nooky sessions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Fan Gender and Attraction (aka Sol's Poll) -- Isabel,
19:47:43 08/07/01 Tue
No surprises from me. I'm female, hetero, and I've lusted for
Spike from the first time I saw him. I'd say 20% his cheekbones,
10% his voice and 70% his 'joie de vivre.'
After him, I'd let Goofy/Cheerful Angel console my Spike-less
existance. (Note: I said Goofy/Cheerful, NOT Happy. Angelus should
be a pile of dust.) Yes, I know, hypocritical of me because I'm
not advocating staking Spike who is also evil, but you didn't
say I had to be fair. Plus, brooding is a turn-off for me.
After that Giles and Wesley tie. (I also lusted after ASH in the
coffee commercials. I even watched VR-5 for him. I was so happy
when it was canceled and he got the job on Buffy.)
As for the women, if I walked the other side of the fence, hmmm,
I think I'd go for Buffy. After her, Faith, Lilah and maybe Drusilla,
if she wasn't going to kill me.
Question about "Meet the Posters" Pics for Masquerade
-- VampRiley, 13:15:53 08/06/01 Mon
Is there actually a reason for the pics. Are they choosen based
on something that the person writes about themselves or thier
name.
I noticed for me, the pic of Liam was choosen (although it doesn't
show up) and I put that I am a lazy slacker, although not as bad
a Liam was.
For yourself, you choose the pic of jenny in the Magic shop in
Passion holding an Orb of Thesula. She worked with computers as
a computer teacher and I'm assuming that you do since it says
that you're a database manager.
Little One has the pic of Dawn at the end of Buffy vs. Dracula.
Many times Dawn has been refered to as "Little..." (Anya
- "Hello there little girl.", Spike - "I bet someone's
glad to see me, arn't you little bit.", etc.)
Lady Starlight said she was a stay-at-home mom and you got a pic
of Joyce.
Humanitas has one of Angel reading reading Jean Paul Sartre's
La Nausee not long after he starts walking and talking again after
coming back from Hell. And now, he is on a quest to regain his
Humanity completly (mortality and all).
Mundusmundi has one of Riley sitting at a desk or something and
Mundusmundi has a quote of Spike saying "It's not uncommon,
you know. Two people, in the workplace...." Not only were
they both slayers, they also shared the college as a workplace
- Riley a TA and Buffy the student.
OnM wrote that he was male, mostly human and there is a pic of
Doyle whose half human.
Rowan wrote that she has a mean bite and Drusilla is someone who,
as you wrote "would 'only bite harder' if someone begged
for their life".
Many times ther have been references made by Rufus at having a
cat named Rufus and there is a pic of Miss Kitty Fantastico from
what looks like last season's season finale.
Slayrunt wrote that his name came from "One of Glory's petnames
for Buffy. Sounded like a good name for me as I feel runtish around
all these philosophers." Maybe also in reference to Buffy's
height as well, I'm not sure.
Solitude 1056 wrote the quote of "Bored now." said by
VampWillow from Doppelgängland.
With vampire hunter d, there is one of Faith. They wrote that
"Fiederich Nietzie's not bad" for favorite philosopher.
Faith, in Season 3, was a "vampire hunter" following
Fredrich Nietzsche's dual value systems: the master morality and
the slave morality that you wrote in you episode analysis for
Bad Girls. The letter "D" is also the first letter of
the name of the vamp the killed the slayer before her - Drusilla.
And Wiswoman wrote that she is "human, female, Wiccan [with
possible Wiccan references to being an] astrologer and tarot card
reader." and there is a pic of Willow.
Liquidram wrote that she is a mom and Darla is the mother of Angel
and in Becoming we see that Darla sired Angelus which she said
was her firtst episode of Buffy that she watched (although this
one is a bit of a stretch, even for me).
Brian has written that he has had various day jobs just like Xander
did until this past season.
The only ones I havn't come up with are for Cleanthes, gds and
Nina. Right now I'm bored out of my skull and I'm probably thinking
way too much into this. This always happens to me when I'm this
bored. And I choose this for my choice of Strangest thread topic
ever posted.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> If you don't want to be "liam" let me know...
-- Masquerade, 13:41:07 08/06/01 Mon
I noticed for me, the pic of Liam was choosen (although it doesn't
show up) and I put that I am a lazy slacker, although not as bad
a Liam was.
*good for you, VR* I really wanted to make you Riley, but mundusmundi
said of my choice of Riley ("How'd you get a picture of me!?"
so m is Riley. You can be any unclaimed character you want. If
you can find a fake picture of Riley vamped, I'd add that 'cause
I'm including characters and their human or vampire counterparts
as two separate characters.
Plus I'll fix the disappearing liam.
Masquerade--computer professional, ex-teacher, not much of a techno-pagan,
but jenny was the character I related to the most (plus Willow
and Angel but they were taken)
Little One has the pic of Dawn at the end of Buffy vs. Dracula.
Many times Dawn has been refered to as "Little..." (Anya
- "Hello there little girl.", Spike - "I bet someone's
glad to see me, arn't you little bit.", etc.)
*good for you, VR*
Lady Starlight said she was a stay-at-home mom and you got a pic
of Joyce.
*good for you, VR*
Humanitas seems highly intellectual, and his posting name is about
seeking the potential of humanity. Brooding reading Angel seemed
to fit.
Mundusmundi mentioned being a history instructor and needed to
know Latin better, so I made her the resident Buffyverse T.A.
(the other choice was professor Maggie, but eww)
OnM wrote that he was male, mostly human and there is a pic of
Doyle whose half human.
*good for you, VR*
Rowan was such a Spike fanatico in her ten answers, I had to make
her a bonafide Spike lover. And the only fictional one I know
(that can be proved) is Spike's beloved Dru.
Rufus is the name of Rufus' cat, and let's face it, she thinks
like one, too--furry and playful and occassionally scratchy.
Slayrunt is a very short slayer.
Solitude 1056 loves VampWillow. Evil of me to make him look like
her. "Could this be more disturbing?" --Doppelgangland
With vampire hunter d is Faith 'cause he's a vampire hunter, but
Buffy was already taken. Plus he seems cool in a Faithy-way.
Wiswoman became Willow because Willow's a smart cookie. O.K.,
book-smarts maybe. She has a way to go in life. Glad you caught
the wicca thing!
Liquidram complained of being older than others on the board (which
she is SO NOT). I told her I'd depict her as a "sexy old
broad" and there was two choices, Darla and Drusilla. But
Dru then got taken.
Brian sounded like such a normal, funny guy. Hence, Xander
Cleanthes is a lawyer.
gds is an Ayn Rand fan. Ayn Rand's philosophy is similar to Anya's
Capitalist views
Nina asked to be the first slayer. The Guide in "Intervention"
also took the form of the first slayer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: If you don't want to be "liam" let me
know... -- VampRiley, 14:00:44 08/06/01 Mon
I like the pic of Liam. I've not even heard of a fake one for
a vamped Riley. If I find one I'll let you know.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: If you don't want to be "liam" let me
know... -- LadyStarlight, 14:45:16 08/06/01 Mon
Hey Masq, Joyce is cool. Hope I don't have to hit anyone in the
head with an axe, though...(I'll be very careful of Parent-Teacher
Nights.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> The choice isn't meant to imply that you're
dead, either ; ) -- Masq, 14:51:42 08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Would be more peaceful some days... --
LadyStarlight, 17:53:53 08/06/01 Mon
...some days I could be replaced by a tape recorder & noone would
notice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Wouldn't work here! You'd be missed!
-- Masq, 18:24:49 08/06/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wouldn't work here! You'd
be missed! -- LadyStarlight, 06:42:07 08/07/01 Tue
Well, not replaced here...but in RL.
No, don't hit your brother. Don't put that in your mouth. etc,
etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: pictures -- mundusmundi, 15:06:41 08/06/01 Mon
*good for you, VR* I really wanted to make you Riley, but mundusmundi
said of my choice of Riley ("How'd you get a picture of me!?"
so m is Riley.
If you want VR to be Riley it's fine by me. My aforementioned
comment was referring to the cubicle he's sitting in, which looks
just like my home away from home. I look nothing like him physically,
as my dating history will sadly attest. (So I really don't mind
being him either, just to boost my shattered self-esteem. ;)
Personality-wise, I'm more of a Doyle. But OnM's got that "mostly
human" thing going, whereas I'm three-quarters bonobo, so
that scratches that.
Mundusmundi mentioned being a history instructor and needed to
know Latin better, so I made her the resident Buffyverse T.A.
I'm a "he," actually. But I'll gladly assume any TA
duties during my tenure here (beats being an adjunct).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> I try to avoid pronouns just for that reason!
-- Masq, 15:11:31 08/06/01 Mon
Although there is a disclaimer that the pics don't equal the gender
of the poster, I guess I got it right in your case.
Side note to any and all who read this:
I actually know more real-life genders of posters than others
since so many include RL names in their email addresses. But I
won't tell unless asked to...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: pictures -- VampRiley, 15:15:05 08/06/01
Mon
If I get a Riley pic, I want it to be one where Riley is vamped.
If anyone knows where one might be, it would be greatly appreciated.
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Well, Masq, if you really think I'm a Spike fanatico...
-- rowan, 15:18:09 08/06/01 Mon
you should have given me Spike for my photo!(just kidding) :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> And make you your _own_ lust object?? -- Masq,
15:25:01 08/06/01 Mon
"This just couldn't get more disturbing!" --Willow,
Doppelgangland
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Absolutely true! :) -- rowan, 07:22:53
08/07/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: If you don't want to be "liam" let me
know... -- Nina, 16:02:46 08/06/01 Mon
"Nina asked to be the first slayer. The Guide in "Intervention"
also took the form of the first slayer."
yes and... the first slayer burst into the SG dreams in "Restless"
just like I burst into this board when I first came in. There
were no Buffy to kick me out and Brian told me to stay so you
got stuck with me! The first slayer is also a primary force like
the one healers and toltec people refer to when they call upon
the forces to help them heal people. Not that we look anything
alike... maybe she has my bed-hair though! :0
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Question about "Meet the Posters" text for Masquerade
-- Solitude1056, 05:57:01 08/07/01 Tue
Are we allowed to change our lines, as long as we don't all do
it at once & not every single week?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Question about "Meet the Posters" for
Masquerade -- Brian, 08:43:26 08/07/01 Tue
Where do we find this item?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> You can find it here.... -- Nina, 09:04:53 08/07/01
Tue
http://home.4w.com/pages/btvs/posters.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Yes, I just haven't gotten to the updates yet! --
Masq, 09:06:16 08/07/01 Tue
Still adding profiles...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Would you guys please capitalize the D in my name -- vampire
hunter D, 12:30:27 08/07/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I got Spike covered in sexy bruises. I am happy. -- voyageofbeagle,
17:43:41 08/07/01 Tue
Summer Reading for Scoobies (look! I'm de-lurking! Welcome me!)
-- Sheri, 16:46:59 08/06/01 Mon
Ok, I just started reading Justein Gaarder's "Sofie's World."
Its about a 14 year old girl who receives a note in her mail box
that reads "Who am I?" In the novel, a mysterious philosopher
keeps leaving Sofie letters teaching her about different philosophies
so that she can learn more about herself, the world, blah blah
blah (that's my simplified explanation--there's also some cool
reality bending aspects to the story). Anyhoo, my first thought
when I started reading it was, "Hey, this would be a really
good book for Dawn to read." You know, with the whole identity
crises "Am I a girl? Am I a ball of green energy?" thing.
So does anybody have a book or story that they would love to see
someone on BtVS or Angel reading?
--Sheri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Welcome, delurking Sheri! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 17:02:35 08/06/01
Mon
IMHO, Anya should definitely read Sara Ban Breathnach's Simple
Abundance...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Angel should read.... -- voyageofbeagle, 17:21:50 08/06/01
Mon
"14,000 Things to be Happy About!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Consider yourself welcomed! -- Rattletrap, 19:10:36 08/06/01
Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Summer Reading for Scoobies (look! I'm de-lurking! Welcome
me!) -- dan, 21:11:57 08/06/01 Mon
wow, that's a great book, and *very* apropos for Dawn. this is
a really fun topic! As a recently delurked individual myself,
welcome!
Buffy, in the Afterlife's library (it's got a GREAT selection!)
should be readin' Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling. In her leap
off the tower, she *exemplified* Kierkegaard's concept of the
"knight of faith."
With Willow's recent shift in her understanding of her sexual
identity, her interest might be piqued by the introductory volume
of Foucault's History of Sexuality. that, and some of Jeanette
Winterson's saucy novels, especially The Passion and Sexing The
Cherry.
The entire Scooby Gang, after Buffy's death, might find reading
Camus' The Plague helpful and healing, for its incredibly moving
portrait of humanity struggling against a harsh and uncaring universe.
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Summer Reading for Scoobies (Welcome Sheri!) -- d'Herblay,
21:41:10 08/06/01 Mon
Anya: The Road to Serfdom, Friedrich Hayek. Capitalism--it's good
on ya!
Tara: You Just Don't Understand, Deborah Tannen. "Willow,
you see, you use 'report talk,' and I use 'rapport talk' . . .
"
Wesley: Farewell, My Lovely, Raymond Chandler. Down these mean
streets a man must walk.
Spike & Cordelia: PDR: Physicians' Desk Reference, 2001. There's
got to be something in there for those headaches.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Welcome! -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 22:11:45 08/06/01
Mon
I think they should all read 'The Watcher's Guide' - how weird
would that be?
And 'Sophie's World' is a fantastic book: everyone should read
it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I'm hoping to finish it one day... -- Sheri, 22:17:57
08/06/01 Mon
I bought Sophie's World when I was living in Sweden, so it is
very very slow reading for me... I glad that you all like it :)
Thank you for the welcome!
I was just thinking, wouldn't it be funny if Dawn were to find
some of Spike's old Bloody Awful Poetry in her English textbook
next year? Teehee (yes, I get amused very easily!)
--Sheri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> I have this fantasy . . . -- d'Herblay, 22:24:29
08/06/01 Mon
. . . that Spike was really William Ernest Henley, minor Victorian
poet of death and vigor.
And that he fakes an Oxbridge doctorate, writing a dissertation
on himself, and ends up teaching Tara's Victorian Literature class.
"Willow, my professor is evil."
"What? Twenty-page term papers? They won't let you miss classes
for apocalypses? Do you have to keep a reading journal?"
"No, not that evil; it's just that . . . well . . . he's
Spike."
"Oh, you're lucky, I can't stake most of my professors .
. . "
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: I have this fantasy . . . -- Sheri,
15:11:05 08/07/01 Tue
I've been wondering where Spike gets his money to pay for all
those ciggerettes (ack, can't spell)... so I've got this little
fantasy that he's been writing romance novels under the pen-name
Danielle Steele.
Hummm, I bet if he did find one of his poems published somewhere,
it would be attributed to that guy who made fun of William the
B.A.P.'s use of the word "effulgent". I can just see
Spike trying to figure out a way to kill a guy who's been dead
for quite some time now.
--Sheri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Welcome! -- rowan, 07:26:41 08/07/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Summer Reading for Scoobies (look! I'm de-lurking! Welcome
me!) -- Dedalus, 09:51:08 08/07/01 Tue
Greetings and salutations, Sheri.
We need to get Tanker over here.
I seem to remember some kind of hello dance/ritual everyone did
to welcome new members to alt.tv.buffy ...
Something like "Gabba, gabba, we accept you, gabba, gabba
... " ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Hey! Someone saw "Freaks"! -- anom, 18:46:52
08/07/01 Tue
'Something like "Gabba, gabba, we accept you, gabba, gabba
... " ?'
It's from Todd Browning's movie "Freaks," & it goes:
"Gooble gobble, gooble gobble, we accept her, we accept her.
Gooble gobble, gooble gobble, one of us [the freaks], one of us."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> The Ramones did, used the line in "Pinhead"
. . . -- d'Herblay, 19:12:22 08/07/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Freaks is a *classic*, man. -- Solitude1056,
21:35:56 08/07/01 Tue
One of my favorites - didn't realize someone had quoted it, since
I've been too buried to read all the posts recently. Bummer on
me for missing a fellow Freaks devotee. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> One of us, one of us, one of us... *n/t*
-- Andy, 11:45:08 08/08/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> definitely...and -- anom, 16:02:31 08/08/01
Wed
Thought I'd try again, since that last one showed up on the board.
Unless the problem's specific to the Reply function....
definitely:
Not the "bummer on me" part--no way you could know before
it came up, right? I mean the "classic" part. Johnny
Eck the Half Boy, Randian the Living Torso, Daisy & Violet the
Siamese Twins....
and:
BTW, folks outside the NYC area might not know there was a Broadway
musical based on the lives of the last 2, called Side Show, which
was very good (OK, I'm biased, I know the lyric/book writer) but
didn't last long. It ends, after [pain]fully demonstrating the
twins' humanity, with Todd Browning coming around looking to cast
them in a movie. One of them asks, "What's the name of your
movie, Mr. Browning?"...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> You invoke my name, I show up -- Tanker, 23:30:51
08/07/01 Tue
The ritual, which I got from the Ramones song "Pinhead,"
and which they modified from the version in "Freaks,"
was:
Gabba gabba, we accept you, we accept you, one of us!
Someone once told Joey Ramone (r.i.p.) about this, and he said
something to the effect of how cool we vampire slayers were. I
rarely do it on the newsgroup any more. Sheri is exactly the kind
of newbie who was likely to get gabba-ed.
In the ng, next would come the ritual spanking. What do you guys
do?
-- Tanker (you know, I don't think I ever formally delurked here)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Oooooh, ritual spankings... you really know
how to make a girl feel welcome (N/T) -- Sheri, 12:18:41 08/08/01
Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: I don't recall the ritual spankings ...
-- Dedalus, 17:18:56 08/08/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> It was right after we were discussing
the Philosophy of Fungus... -- OnM, 17:28:50 08/08/01 Wed
...but I'm not sure it was ever formalized. We aren't that ritualistic
here, it's too much physical work!
Welcome, Sheri!
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Well, we are ritualistic about discussing
the philosophy of mold.... -- Masq, 17:36:16 08/08/01 Wed
It is summer, after all!
How many moons until October 2???
Ack!
Promos Not Consistent with Spoilers -- darrenK, 12:50:04 08/07/01
Tue
Obviously, there are Spoilers in this message....
So don't read any further.
I'm serious.
Anyway, I've thought the Buffybot spoilers were hugely lame since
the moment I read them, but now that I've seen the promos, I not
only think they're lame, I think they're plants. Big Plants.
You see, the spoilers said that Willow was leading the Scoobs,
the Buffybot was showing the world a Buffy, and all looked right
with the world.
The Promos are all about how the world has gone to hell without
the Slayer. If the 'bot is playing Slayer and powerwitch Willow
is doing the dusting then would Dawn really need to face the world,
stake in hand?
Joss said that they were going to "make the Slayer's death
real, make it painful" and that they were going to "earn"
her return.
If the 'bot holds Buffy's place, so that the world thinks there
is a Slayer, then it limits the consequences of the death. Buffy
climbs out of the coffin and takes the place the 'bot held. To
the world she will never have left.
In other words, the 'bot makes it easy, keeps it from being real
and limits the plot consequences of her death, e.g., Buffy not
having to face down an earthly bureaucracy that insists she's
dead.
Plus, Xander, Willow, Giles and Co. have had to face Sunnydale
without Buffy before and that's when Willow wasn't superwitch
and there was no Buffybot. So what makes it worse now?
No, the tone of the Promos is ominous, the Scoobs sound like they've
spent 3 months facing a world without a Buffy, any Buffy.
It might just be wishful thinking, but I don't think the 'bot
is in the mix.
I also think it's really uncharacteristic of Giles to leave Dawn
and the Scoobs to their fate. The Buffy writers are always good
about making sure that the characters feel the weight of their
emotional debts and Gile's debt to Joyce is almost as big as his
post-Gift debt to Buffy. For him to leave Dawn would undermine
5 years of characterization.
Opinions? Ideas? Time's a wasting...
dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> You won't get an arguement from me -- vampire hunter D,
13:00:59 08/07/01 Tue
I've always hated the Buffybot spaoilers. They were way too stupid
to have come from Joss (they look like something a clone show
likeDark Angel would try).
And I agree with your take on Giles leaving. This show always
been good at giving the characters a reason to leave, and not
just deciding to up and go on a whim.
btw, you asked what's different now compared to the other times
the gang had to face evil in town w/o Buffy. Well, the difference
is that before, there was always the chance Buffy would come back
(even when she ran away). Now, there is no (apparent) chance of
here return.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: You won't get an arguement from me -- darrenK,
14:04:54 08/07/01 Tue
You're right that there was always a chance she'd come back, at
the same time, she was gone.
And, despite their grief, the Scoobs have never been in better
shape to be without her. Willow is getting more and more powerful.
Tara is talented. And Spike has sworn to protect Dawn with superhuman,
demon fighting vampiric strength.
And, if the spoilers were correct, they have the superstrong,
more than willing to fight, Buffybot.
But I'm convinced that the spoilers are wrong...
dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> why buffy gone this time is different... --
justin, 15:10:36 08/07/01 Tue
Because that big scary ass Dragon flew out of the portal! And
those guys with the twisted up faces? And the bug faces? oooooooooh.
spooky.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Promos Not Consistent, anyway - or something? -- Solitude1056,
14:08:03 08/07/01 Tue
The first posting of the promos with Dawn quoted her as saying
that "her sister saved her, saved the world, who's going
to save us now?" or some such - I never was able to download
it, since the page always seemed to have maxed out on its bandwidth.
The promo downloaded from Sky One today, though, shows Dawn holding
a stick & definitely sounding anything but teary & mopey & wanting
a rescuer. Instead she sounds way more like her Bitty Buffy self.
Did the promos change, or is the UK audience seeing different
ones?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Do the promos seem out of character or is it just me? --
Kerri, 14:27:54 08/07/01 Tue
Honestly, no one seems to sad.
Anya's seemed to be in character. The comment about Buffy's vocal
chords decomposing and all...which also serves to remind us what
Joss said-Buffy is rotting in her grave.
Dawn's promo...I don't know. She seemed like someone she barely
knew had saved her life. Dawn seemed grateful and inspired by
Buffy's death. She just didn't seem devestated like I would imagine
she would.
Xander also didn't seem sad enough about the loss of his best
friend. Also-why did he say the world is going to hell. They survived
when Buffy left Sunnydale after season 2. So why not now? After
all they've got Willow and Tara's magic and Spike fighting with
them.
For some reason I couldn't download the spike trailer so i don't
know about that one.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> You won't get an argument from me on this one... -- rowan,
14:59:30 08/07/01 Tue
I've only seen the Spike promo (surprise, surprise, but the first
site I tried didn't work and it was the only one I've been able
to view). I will say that my overall impression is that these
are very glitzy and done to capture potential viewers. They have
almost an overly dramatic, soap opera-ish feel.
Look at Spike's -- he's surrounded by pillar candles (yeah, vamps
line up to be around flame, right). He's telling us touchingly
about his pain, then suddenly he's talking about the world going
to hell in a way that half makes you wonder if he's going to help
it along.
I just think that the promos don't have much relationship to the
spoilers or even to what's going to happen -- they're just the
first wave of a really glitzy ad campaign designed to hook new
viewers.
Just one woman's opinion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> ads for buffy are always bad. -- Justin, 15:07:49
08/07/01 Tue
The Spike promo is as bad as the others. The only good one, as
was stated, is the Anya promo. It's in character with the whole
show. EXCEPT, the cheesiest and worst part of these promos: LAST
SEASON...BUFFY DIED. Or did she?
god is that lame. I'm guessing that UPN put these together and
gets to market the show however they want. And ads for Buffy have
NEVER been good. Take the covers for the video boxes of the first
season. It's PORN Buffy, seductively holding her stake. bleck.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> UPN-style promos -- Masquerade, 15:46:35 08/07/01
Tue
I half suspect UPN of hyperbole. Anyone who watched Star Trek
Voyager knows those promos blew everything out of proportion.
I remember the one where Torres and Paris are stuck floating in
outerspace and finally admit they love each other. The promo says,
"It could be the greatest love of all time!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: UPN-style promos -- rowan, 17:28:39
08/07/01 Tue
I agree with you. I think this is UPN going into overdrive to
market the show.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Spike ........risk taker or owner of a sprinkler system?
-- Rufus, 15:49:22 08/07/01 Tue
I don't pay much mind to the promos, they are there to remind
you that the show is coming back. It's just seconds of torture
til the season starts, I think they are rather clever myself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> *giggling* -- rowan, 17:43:22 08/07/01 Tue
Okay, now I've seen them all. They really are over the top...so
dramatic. The Hellmouth never was so...hellmouthy. I did think
Anya's was the most consistent with her character. Xander's was
a little cold (referring to her as The Slayer) and Spike's is
just darn sexy. Is it just me, or did MT look embarassed holding
that stake and saying that line?
These plus JM's Q&A at GenCom are really making me antsy for the
season to start. The only problem is I'm finally taking my two
week dream vacation to England and I'm going to miss eps 5&6 (ack!
the musical ep!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> find a friend... -- Solitude1056, 17:46:56
08/07/01 Tue
... and threaten to hurt them severely if they don't tape it for
you. ;-)
and don't forget to swing by & say hello to Marie!
The hero's journey -- Kerri, 15:46:01 08/07/01 Tue
Ok-I was at The cross and stake spoiler board and someone posted
an outline of Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. I added to it
my commentary on when each of these events takes place for Buffy.
THE ADVENTURE OF THE HERO
Chapter I. DEPARTURE
1. The Call to Adventure-Called as the slayer
2. Refusal of the Call-When she arrives in Sunnydale Buffy tells
Giles she is retired.
3. Supernatural Aid-Angel, The Scoobys, Giles
4. The Crossing of the First Threshold-Buffy fights the Master
5. The Belly of the Whale-season 2
Chapter II. INITIATION
1. The Road of Trials-seasons 2, 3, 4
2. The Meeting with the Goddess-the first slayer in Restless
3. Woman as Temptress-The temptation of darkness-Faith, later
Dracula
4. Atonement with the Father
5. Apotheosis-Buffy's epiphany in "The Gift", dies in
the shape of a cross
6. The Ultimate Boon-understanding of her duty
In my oppinion this is more or less where we are now and we have
at least two seasons left to go.
Chapter III. RETURN
1. Refusal of the Return
2. The Magic Flight
3. Rescue from Without
4. The Crossing of the Return Threshold
5. Master of the Two Worlds
6. Freedom to Live
Just thought that this was interesting, and maybe helpful in predicting
the coming seasons.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The hero's journey -- Rochefort, 17:44:30 08/07/01 Tue
I never saw the episode where Buffy's father appears. Did she
have to do some sort of questing in terms of her father?
Resolving identity in terms of him?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Buffy's father -- Kerri, 20:32:44 08/07/01 Tue
"I never saw the episode where Buffy's father appears. Did
she have to do some sort of questing in terms of her father?"
In "Nightmares" we first meet Hank Summers. He seems
to be involved with Buffy's life and interested in maintaining
a relationship with his daughter. In this episode we learn that
Buffy blames herself for Hank leaving. We hear of Hank sparsely
in the series. It is mentioned that Buffy stayed with him the
summer after the first season. He is also mentioned in "Helpless"
when he backs out on taking Buffy to the ice show. In season 5
we see a very different portrail of a what once seemed like a
loving, caring father. Hank is supposed to be in Italy with his
secretary, he doesn't return Buffy's calls when Joyce gets sick,
and he can't be reached after Joyce's death.
The only real issue Buffy has with Hank is that she blames herself
for his leaving, just like she blames herself for other events
that she in fact isn't responsible for-Angel turning evil, Riley
leaving.
But I think that the "Atonment with the father" stage
does not primarily refer to Hank. In a way the first slayer is
Buffy's father-her creator. Buffy resolves her issues with the
first slayer and what being the slayer means. Just an idea.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy's father -- Rufus, 22:31:57 08/07/01
Tue
You could also count her relationship with the CoW's as her atonment
as well. Buffy pretty much took that relationship to a whole new
level. They had used Buffy as a tool like the other slayers of
past. Buffy corrected their bad habit but didn't cut them off
entirely, just sent them to their room...well England and all
those books. Also her relationship with Giles has to be counted
as a relationship that has gone through some changes. Giles may
originate from the CoW but he was the person that allowed Buffy
to think for herself and admired her for it. The last confrontation
she had with Giles was over Dawn and Buffy was prepared to protect
her sister to the end. Buffy's last words to Dawn included Giles...she
wanted Giles above all to know she was okay with her final choice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's REAL father -- Dedalus, 17:25:18
08/08/01 Wed
Come on, what are you guys talking about?
I posted this awhile back at the old Usenet NG, but don't you
remember season two's mindblowing ender?
Buffy and Snyder had been swordfighting atop Sunnydale High, Buffy
gets her arm cut off, and then the bomb is dropped.
Snyder: Together, we can end this conflict, and bring order to
Sunnydale.
Buffy: I'll NEVER JOIN YOU!!!
Snyder: If you only knew the power of the Hellmouth. Giles never
told you what happened to your father.
Buffy: He told me enough. He told me you killed him.
Snyder: No. I am your father.
Buffy: NNNOOOOO!!!! THAT'S NOT TRUE!!! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!
How could you guys forget that one? Get with the program.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Okay, now you're just plain wrong...Buffy's
REAL REAL father was... -- Anthony8, 18:50:00 08/08/01 Wed
...Faye Dunaway as Joan Crawford in 'Mommie Dearest.'
Faye: 'I don't care whether you're a vampire slayer. NO WIRE HANGERS!'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's REAL father -- anom,
21:07:05 08/08/01 Wed
"Snyder: No. I am your father.
Buffy: NNNOOOOO!!!! THAT'S NOT TRUE!!! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!"
But--but that means--Snyder and...Joyce? YAAAAGHHHH!
Now there's one visual I don't want to get!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe she's adopted... --
Cactus Watcher, 08:37:28 08/09/01 Thu
and her real mother is rat-poison lunch-lady! ;oD
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe she's adopted...
-- anom, 15:13:07 08/09/01 Thu
"and her real mother is rat-poison lunch-lady! ;oD"
Now her I could picture with Snyder...but I'd rather not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The hero's journey -- Rattletrap, 11:52:22 08/08/01
Wed
Okay, I tried to post this earlier, but I got some sort of error,
so apologies if this double posts.
By the way, great job Kerri.
If I remember right, one of the integral parts of Campbell's road
of trials is that the Hero meets a figure who is initially a mysterious
helper, but blossoms end to either a lover or an enemy. This seems
to me a pretty good description of the Buffy/Angel arc through
most of the early seasons.
I have also noticed a change in the use of the word "hero"
on the show over the last season. In "Blood Ties" Spike
tells Buffy "You'll find her, just in the nick of time, that's
what you hero types do." And then, from "The Gift,"
Giles tells Ben, "She's a hero you see, not like us."
In both cases, it seems almost like they are using hero with a
capital "H," to refer to The Hero in Campbell's sense
of the word. My question is this: Is anyone aware of a myth/legend/fairy
tale in which The Hero is actually aware that he/she is The Hero?
and is this the case for Buffy now?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The hero's journey -- vampire hunter D, 12:32:49 08/08/01
Wed
I think we'll see at least the first part of your Chapter III
early this year (I mean the Refusal of the Return). In the AICN
spoilers, there are two events that strike me as fitting this.
First, the first thing Buffy does after coming back is return
to the Tower, with intent to throw herself off again. She's doing
this because she does not want to lose the peace she experienced
in the Afterlife (and of course, Dawn talks her out of it). Second,
it says that an ep or two later, Buffy becomes depressed about
her loss and seeks solace in Spike.
While I stand by my belief that the AICN spoilers are 90% bullshit,
thses two strike me as at least plausible (especially the tower
scene). And this sounds like step 1 of The Return.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The hero's journey -- Nina, 15:35:34 08/08/01
Wed
Thanks Kerri!
I don't think Buffy thinks she is a hero. People around her can
see her like this, but not herself. What kind of hero would go
around town saying "I'm a hero" anyway. It's like giving
money to people in need and advertize yourself as being a generous
person.
I do believe that Joss Whedon is aware of the Hero's journey though.
Everything is consistant with chapter 1 and 2. That's part of
the journey! And two years is time enough to complete what's left
to accomplish by Buffy to be the ultimate Hero.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The hero's journey -- Rahael, 15:42:45 08/08/01
Wed
There's a lengthy thread in the Buffy forum at the Bronzeshelter
(www.bronzeshelter.com) devoted to 'Buffy - Hero's journey. There
is a very good analysis as to how Campbell's theories align with
Buffy's own journey by AMS and HeyWhyNot. Since all three of us
also hang out here as well, you'll recognize how much inspiration
and cross pollination has come from this board!
Though the board seems to be down at the moment.......
RtAT: Poul Anderson by OnM: tribute -- anom, 20:52:04 08/07/01
Tue
First: "If you want a thread moved back, just let me know."
Thanks, Masq, but I think I'll just take OnM's subject line suggestion
this time (thanks, OnM). Wouldn'cha know the disappearing threads
thread disappeared.... Anyway, this is what I tried to post about
Poul Andersen's death:
Oh, *damn*! He was supposed to be the guest of honor at last year's
Philcon (sf convention in Philly) but got sick...they said it
wasn't serious, & I hadn't heard anything since...his wife, Karen,
showed up by herself...condolences to her, it always sounded like
they had one of the great, enduring marriages.
Poul Anderson's books helped draw me further into science fiction
(I'd started years earlier, too young for his books, with the
Space Cat series). From spacefaring swashbucklers to multiple
interplanetary species of traders (come to think of it, Chee Lan
was sort of a space cat) to the fantastical "A Midsummer
Tempest," in which Shakespeare is not a playwright but The
Historian, the characters in that universe speak in iambic pentameter,
& so does the barkeep in a cross-dimensional tavern--but only
when he's talking to those characters--and so much more, his work
has been amazing. It's sad that there'll be no more of it.
And I never did figure out where he got "Polesotechnic League"
from, or what it means....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: Update -- rowan, 17:50:12
08/07/01 Tue
There is still more fun to come!
Schedule:
08/09/01 Anya Wisewoman
08/16/01 Buffy Nina
08/23/01 Cordelia Solitude1056
08/23/01 Wesley Sam Gamgee
08/30/01 Xander Lurker Becoming Restless
09/06/01 Oz Sssaaammm
09/06/01 Kate Masquerade
09/13/01 Darla Slayrunt
09/13/01 Lindsay Liquidram
09/20/01 The Host verdantheart
09/20/01 The Master Kerri
09/27/01 Joyce Shawn
09/27/01 The Mayor d'Herblay
10/04/01 Doyle Liquidram
10/04/01 Jonathan Malandanza
Still Not Spoken For:
Gunn
Villains (The Annointed One, Adam, etc.)
Minor or recurring characters (Warren, Amy, etc.)
Guidelines:
1. One thread per character please, so that we can keep our great
thoughts in one place and reduce board traffic.
2. rowan is the coordinator of the event.
3. Originators of a character thread are selected based on who
volunteers first by e-mail or post to rowan (with all attempts
to resolve conflicts peaceably).
4. A thread can address any aspect of the character that you find
informative, illustrative, illuminating, invigorating, and/or
irritating. Analysis based on sound research into eps and shooting
scripts preferred.
5. One character thread will be posted per week, to stretch the
chewy philosophical goodness as far as possible. rowan will publish
a schedule periodically so we all know what's going on.
6. The naming convention for posts is: Character Name: 1st Anniversary
Character Posting Party.
7. Masq will immortalize your posts on the website for posterity's
enjoyment.
Higher Purpose and the Big Bad -- Ophelia, 14:09:21 08/08/01 Wed
Disclaimer:
OK, I've had this idea buzzing around my head since the end of
last season. Since it won't go away, I decided to throw it out
there, see if anyone thinks I'm insane. My apologies in advance
if it's been discussed here before.
I've been thinking about higher purposes in the Buffyverse this
summer. We've got Buffy (Slayer), Angel (Warrior), Cordelia (Vision
Girl), Giles and Wesley (Watchers). I haven't really thought about
Willow or Xander, so I'll leave them alone for now.
And since I worship at the alter of the Big Bad, I will now conveniently
steer this post towards Spike:) During the S4 episode "The
I in Team", Giles tentatively suggests that Spike's chip
may be part of something a bit larger than Sunnydale's own version
of a vamp neutering program:
GILES
Thinking about your affliction -- as
well as your newly discovered ability
to fight only demons. It occurs to
me - and I realize it's against your
nature - but have you considered
there may be a higher purpose--
SPIKE
Aagh. Made me lose count. What are
you still doing here?
GILES
Talking to myself, apparently.
Apparently not something that concerns Spike. But we fast forward
to S5, Buffylove and a much-changed Spike, courtesy of the chip.
And we have this new Spike, who has promised to protect a young
woman "till the end of the world, even if it's tonight"
-- who did it out of love not only for his Slayer, but also love
for Dawn (IMHO).
So my question/hypothesis is this:
What if the chip did serve a higher purpose? And what if this
purpose is to provide an unrelenting protector for the key? It
kinda goes like this in my head: Spike gets chipped, forcing him
into further personal contact with the Scoobies. Spike falls for
the Slayer, bringing him into close contact with Dawn. Out of
that contact grows an affection independent of Buffy herself.
A caring that focuses on Dawn herself -- instant protector of
the key.
That's it in a nutshell. Hope it made sense.
Questions, comments, jeering laughter?
Thanks,
Ophelia
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Higher Purpose and the Big Bad -- Simplicity, 14:41:08
08/08/01 Wed
Your idea makes a lot of sense to me, Ophelia. Spike's attraction
to Buffy seemed to drop out of the air -- in the form of a dream
no less. It follows that he would be an excellent bodyguard for
a immortal entity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The adventures of Spike and Dawn -- Wilder, 15:53:07
08/08/01 Wed
"It follows that he would be an excellent bodyguard for a
immortal entity."
But Dawn will age, won't she? What would happen to The Key once
it's mortal body dies? Will it reopen the gate or close it forever?
questions, questions, questions .....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The adventures of Spike and Dawn -- Dedalus,
17:30:54 08/08/01 Wed
Well, the energy of the Key itself seems pretty immortal ...
Anyway, I had totally forgotten about that quote Ophelia. Thanks.
That does work really well. It's amazing how characters are rehabilitated
in this show.
We were speculating a while back, and I think it would be hilarious
to see Spike as an overprotective big brother. I mean, can you
see him freaking out when she starts dating? Giving the guy a
hard time, following them around, lurking in bushes, maybe occasionally
jumping out in full vamp face when the guy tries to kiss Dawn
...
Could be very good stuff. Okay, maybe not higher purpose stuff,
but still good.
:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: The adventures of Spike and Dawn --
Ophelia, 17:45:21 08/08/01 Wed
I've always imagined him greeting her dates with his shotgun cradled
in his arms and a cigarette hanging out of his mouth...and possibly
suggesting some creative anatomical renovations to the poor guy's
body if he dares to touch his girl. Poor Dawn, Spike could bode
very ill for her dating future!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Another reason for Spike to act
like the Big Bro? -- Sheri, 19:00:33 08/08/01 Wed
Ok, this is just my overactive little fantasy... Now, I think
we can all agree that Spike has a bit of an older brother (possibly
fatherly) additude towards Dawn. Ok, so my first thought has been
that Spike had once had a younger sister who he was very close
to and who was a lot like Dawn. So, Wouldn't it be nifty if this
sister was *exactly* like Dawn and that the monks modeled Dawn
after Spike's sister so that he would be predisposed to protecting
her? (yes, I realize that if this was the case Spike probably
would have said something--oh well. I still think it would be
cool).
--Sheri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> The adventures of Spike and Dawn
-- Brian, 20:14:38 08/08/01 Wed
Actually, I see Buffy being overprotective, and Spike saying,
"Give the little bit some space! Don't you remember your
teenage years." Of course, he would probably say one thing
and do another, like lurking while Dawn's on a date, showing up
at the malt shop, and coming out for a cig during that "Goodnight
moment" with her date. Lots of possibilities for hi-jinks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Key Immortality -- Ophelia, 17:53:29 08/08/01
Wed
I'd always assumed that the gate couldn't open itself, that it
was activated by other events, such as bleeding Dawn at a certain
time and place. So maybe if Dawn eventually dies a natural death
the energy will just dissipate?
Or maybe Dawn will be immortal herself, and will stop aging once
she reaches a certain age. And being that she's comprised of mystical-glowy-key
stuff, will she eventually discover her own set of cool supernatural
abilities?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Key Immortality -- anom, 15:46:30
08/09/01 Thu
"Or maybe Dawn will be immortal herself, and will stop aging
once she reaches a certain age."
Maybe she already has, or never started! After all, she was created
as a 14-year-old & was never really any younger.
Of course, that'd be hard to maintain on a TV show, since she's
played by a human actor who is aging...but if there're only 2
more seasons planned, her appearance may not change that much
before the series ends, so maybe they could play it that way after
all. Hmmmmm....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> The Key Growing Up -- Wisewoman,
19:05:28 08/10/01 Fri
I don't think they're gonna be able to prolong the inevitable.
Did some surfing today to see how much Michelle has grown in the
last year or so. The results are here:
http://www.marilikin.com/dawngrowsup.html
At first I thought it would just be her height, which could fairly
easily be disguised, but there's something about her face that's
shifting, too. Going from "kid" to "young woman"
in a hurry...
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> The Purpose of the Key -- darrenK, 06:32:14
08/09/01 Thu
I think the point is that the energy of the KEY isn't meant to
survive Dawn.
The Key has been made human for a purpose and I think we're going
to see that purpose play out over the next two seasons or so.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: The Purpose of the Key -- Mike, 08:12:30
08/09/01 Thu
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Obviously I dont know what IS
going to happen, but I dont think this is necessarily true. Why
can't the energy return to it's natural form (whatever that may
be) once/if Dawn were to die?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> How many times can the Key be used?
-- darrenK, 15:04:14 08/09/01 Thu
To quote Giles from "the Gift..."
"the portal closes when the energy is used up, when Dawn
is dead..."
This leads me to strongly believe that use of the Key is a one
time only endevour.
dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> not sure we can be sure --
Mike, 01:00:34 08/10/01 Fri
I wont be disappointed if that is the case
I guess the whole storyline so far has revolved around Dawns (human)
blood being the key to the key (ahem)
But personally i think this will prove not to be the case. I can't
help believeing that if Dawn were to die, the energy of the key
would live on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Higher Purpose and the Big Bad -- WanderLost,
10:36:05 08/09/01 Thu
Well, I know I'm not the first to suspect the work of the monks
here.
I mean, they wouldn't even need to change his memory of events,
really. He always related to Buffy in a very intense, passionate
way. Always lusted after her, I think. It would only take the
slightest nudge. Just the tiniest alteration in how he remembered
*feeling* about their interations. And this worked on his mind.
And a couple months after the spell was set, it became a consious
thing. And presto, instant key protector.
Mind you, Spike & I are too much the Romantics to really like
this idea, but it kinda makes sense.
Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part I -- Wisewoman,
21:07:37 08/08/01 Wed
From Anyanka: Vengeance Demon,
to Anya: Loving, Learning Machine
Part I
While all of the Scooby Gang members have grown and matured significantly
since we first met them, none has accomplished as startling and
rapid a transformation as the character of Anya. In the short
2 12 years since she was introduced Anya has developed from an
1100+ year old vengeance demon into a loving and devoted girlfriend,
and a fully functioning, productive member of society. And, despite
her frequently tactless outspoken honesty, she is starting to
be accepted as a valuable and respected addition to the SG. Her
journey has alternated between being one of the funniest and one
of the most touching aspects of the series.
Most of what we know of Anyanka's life as a vengeance demon we
learn in four episodes: The Wish, Doppelgangland, The Prom, and
Triangle. We can assume that she was demonized by D'Hoffryn in
about the year 878 because when she first appears in The Wish,
in November/December of 1998, she says she is 1120 years old.
In this episode, Giles' research into Anyanka was edited out of
the televised version. He finds (in the shooting script) that
she "raised a demon to ruin her unfaithful lover. The demon
did her bidding-but then cursed her and turned her into a sort
of...patron saint for scorned women," who grants their wishes.
If this remains true, despite being cut, then the demon Anyanka
raised was D'Hoffryn. We learn that he is the one who gave her
the pendant that served as her power centre. Anyanka tells Cordelia
that this pendant was given to her by her "father" as
a good luck charm.
As a demon Anyanka is a smoking gun, in a "guns don't kill
people, people kill people" kind of way. She functions as
a tool of scorned women, to fulfil their wishes, rather than as
an initiator of vengeance in her own right. Cordelia is the reason
that Anyanka is in Sunnydale. "The cry of a wronged woman
is like a siren's call to Anyanka," and Xander has seriously
wronged Cordy. (In context, The Wish follows the episode Lover's
Walk in which Cordelia and Oz burst in to save a Spikenapped Xander
and Willow and find them in a compromising position, i.e. lying
on a bed, kissing. In the aftermath of this shock Cordy is seriously
injured, and spends some time recuperating physically and systematically
cutting Xander out of her life.) It should be noted that Anyanka
appears powerless to wreak havoc on Xander or anyone else by her
own volition. She tries (desperately and humorously) to get Cordelia
to wish some evil on Xander, but is ultimately unsuccessful.
The introduction of Anyanka in The Wish was a fairly obvious plot
device, much like Clarence the Angel in "It's A Wonderful
Life," allowing us to see what life in Sunnydale would have
been like without Buffy's presence. As such, Anyanka was really
secondary to the main plot, which concerned a Slayerless gang
of vampire fighters, led by Giles and Oz, battling a large force
of vampires led by the Master, and featuring VampWillow and VampXander.
I don't doubt that Anya may initially have been intended to appear
in only one, or possibly two episodes, and I'm not sure if her
reappearance in Doppelgangland had as much to do with the appeal
of Anya as a character, as it did with the desire to showcase
more of VampWillow's sexy evil! It does seem fortuitous though,
that she arrived on the scene just as Cordelia was preparing to
depart for AtS. In many ways Anya has filled the hole left by
Cordy's departure.
Whatever the reason, we do get to see Anya again in Doppelgangland,
episode 16 of season 3. Giles has robbed her of her demon powers
by smashing her power amulet, and she pleads with D'Hoffryn (who
is described as "the high demon") to restore them.
D'Hoffryn: (sternly interrupts) Your powers were a gift of the
lower beings. You have proved unworthy of them.
Anya: I was robbed of them.
D'Hoffryn: By your carelessness.
Anya: (dramatically) For a thousand years I wielded the powers
of The Wish. I brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I
brought forth destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower
beings. I was feared and worshipped across the mortal globe. (disgustedly)
And now I'm stuck at Sunnydale High. (despondently) Mortal. Child.
And I'm flunking math.
D'Hoffryn: (dismissingly) This is no concern of ours. You will
live out your mortal life and die.
Anya: (pleadingly) Give me another chance. You can fold the fabric
of time. Send me back to that place and I'll change it. I won't
fail again.
D'Hoffryn: Your time is passed.
Anya: (desperately) Do you have any idea how boring twelfth graders
are? (stands up) I'm getting my power center back. (defiantly)
And if you won't help me, then, by the pestilent gods, I will
find someone who will!"
In various subsequent episodes we learn bits and pieces about
Anyanka's demon life. In Graduation Day Part I she tell the SG
she was present "...about 800 years ago in the Koskov Valley
above the Urals" when a sorcerer achieved Ascension and became
the embodiment of the demon Lohesh. She "hung out" with
Dracula when she was a silly young thing of 700 or so. She knows
the "real" Santa Claus, who is not a myth, but a disemboweller
of children. And she thought President Warren G. Harding was cute.
In Something Blue we get to hear Anya's version of how D'Hoffryn
made her a demon: "I'd been dumped, I was miserable, doing
a few vengeance spells - boils on the penis, nothing fancy...D'Hoffryn
got wind of me, he offered to elevate me...He made me a demon."
However, in Triangle we learn that what she did specifically was
to turn her boyfriend, Olaf, a "big dumb guy" who cheated
on her, into a troll, which is how she got the job as a vengeance
demon.
There's an inconsistency here with Giles' research into Anyanka.
He finds that she was "cursed" and made a demon because
she'd conjured up D'Hoffryn, while Anya considers that she was
"elevated" to demon because she'd been able to turn
Olaf into a troll. If Anya is to be held accountable for any of
the crimes committed by Anyanka it can only be if she was offered
the job of vengeance demon and took it willingly, and even then
she does not seem to have been granted any powers to act on her
own.
In any event, Anya makes it pretty clear to anyone who'll listen
that she considers human to be a step down from demon, and she's
determined to regain her powers and mentions this frequently in
the first few weeks she's in Sunnydale. Then something happens
to take her mind off her lost powers, at least temporarily, and
she tells Xander in The Prom that it's all his fault. "You
were unfaithful to Cordelia so I took on the guise of a twelfth-grader
to tempt her with the Wish. When I lost my powers I got stuck
in this persona, and now I have all these feelings. I don't understand
it. I don't like it. All I know is I really want to go to this
dance and I want someone to go with me."
Poor Anya! Not only stuck in a human body, but suddenly forced
to deal with a raging flux of teenage hormones that she's had
no time to get used to or develop defences against. And poor Xander!
He becomes the target of her hormonally fuelled desire because
he's "not quite as obnoxious as most of the alpha males"
around Sunnydale. That's the reason Anya gives him, but right
from the start of their relationship there seems to be something
more to it for her, something she is powerless to control. In
Graduation Day Part I she tries to convince Xander to escape from
Sunnydale with her before the Mayor's Ascension:
Anya: "We could just get in the car and drive. No one would
miss us. We could take turns driving. Keep each other awake. You're
going to die if you stay here."
Xander: "I guess I might."
Anya: "When I think that something could happen to you, it
feels bad inside, like I might vomit.
Xander: "Welcome to the world of romance."
It might not be going too far to say that, for Anya, Xander was
love at first sight; at least at first human sight. She still
has enough sense to get out of Dodge when the Ascension is about
to happen, though, and the next time we see her is in episode
3 of season 4, The Harsh Light of Day. She accosts Xander while
he's working with Giles and tells him, "I can't stop thinking
about you. Sometimes in my dreams you're all naked."
Xander tells her she's rushing things, that "these things
kind of have to develop on their own," and she wants to know
how. All Xander can reply is that it just happens. Anya, of course,
takes him literally, and decides that she'll make it just...happen.
She seeks him out in his musty basement, removes her clothing,
and proposes sexual intercourse, having been thoughtful enough
to bring along condoms, some of which are black.
Anya: "I like you. You're funny, and you're nicely shaped.
And frankly, it's ludicrous to have these interlocking bodies
and not...interlock. Please remove your clothing now."
Xander: "And the amazing thing...still more romantic than
Faith."
Demons may enjoy sex (certainly vampires seem to!) but they ain't
got nothin' on the overwhelming reproductive imperative that is
a human, teenage female ...whether true love is involved or not.
The point, though, is that in Anya's case, true love is involved.
Her burgeoning relationship with Xander in season four and it's
growth throughout season five brings her into constant contact
with the other Scoobies, with often hilarious and/or disastrous
results, but her behaviour is always motivated by her fierce love
for Xander.
Anya: "Xander is in trouble. We've got to do something, right
now!"
Giles: "Uh, ah, where is Buffy and the others?"
Anya: "They're trapped, too, but we've got to save Xander!"
(Halloween)
This attitude may be a holdover from her previous human existence.
If she was as passionate about Olaf, it's no wonder she cursed
him when he cheated on her.
Unfortunately for everyone involved, that seems to be about the
only human attribute Anya has retained. And everything else about
her humanity has to be relearned, step by painful step. It's a
daunting task, but Anya is equal to it...and she has help. We
have ample evidence that Xander recognizes Anya's struggle early
on and spends time talking with her, explaining human behaviour
to her and suggesting ways in which she might behave more "normally."
From Graduation Day Part 1:
Anya: Come with me.
Xander: I can't.
Anya: Why not?
Xander: I've got friends on the line.
Anya: So?
Xander: That humanity thing's still a work in progress, isn't
it?
Truer words were never spoken, and Xander takes up the role as
tutor along with the one as boyfriend.
In Hush Anya embarrasses Xander in front of the gang by saying
that all he cares about is lots of orgasms, and he responds with:
"Okay, remember when we talked about private conversations?
How they're less private when they're in front of my friends?"
One reminder is never enough, though...
Giles: I, uh, one time I, uh, I was up to a little bit of a prank
with the dart board-
Anya: I'm bored. Let's eat.
Xander: (Sternly) Anya, we've talked about this.
Anya is particularly prone to putting her foot in her mouth with
Giles:
Anya: You sold someone Khul's amulet AND a Sobekian Blood Stone.
Giles: Yes, I believe I did.
Anya: Are you stupid or something?
Giles: Allow me to answer that question with a firing.
Xander: She's kidding. An, we talked about the employee to employer
vocabulary no-no's...that was number five.
...and Xander finds himself forced to keep tabs on Anya's progress
and run interference...
Buffy: If Riley and I hadn't gotten so...wrapped up in each other...none
of this would have happened.
Anya: True. (to Riley) Feel shame.
Xander: My girlfriend-mistress of the learning plateau.
Sometimes he finds the only thing to do is to ask her, politely,
to shut up:
Willow: Tara said they took him [Oz] right before she found me.
Anya: So that's good, right? They probably haven't had time to
eviscerate him yet.
Xander: You can help by making this a quiet moment, An.
And sometimes he uses humour, his personal forte, to instruct
her:
Anya rings up a purchase. Addresses the customer:
Anya: Please go.
Xander: Anya, the Shopkeepers Union of America called? They want
me to tell you "please go" just got replaced with "have
a nice day."
Anya: I have their money. Who cares what kind of day they have?
Xander: No one. It's a long cultural tradition of raging insincerity.
Embrace it.
Anya nods. Yells at the customer who's nearly out the door:
Anya: Hey! You! Have a nice day.
Xander: There's my girl.
Sometimes Anya takes her lessons a little too seriously:
A customer is leaving the counter as Anya puts money in the register:
Anya: Thank you for coming! We value your patronage! Come again
for more purchases!
Giles: We could perhaps be a bit less effusive, Anya. Let's not
frighten the people away.
Xander doesn't hesitate to show his pride in her progress, especially
when she does something that helps Buffy and the gang:
Xander: Ladies and gentleman, put your hands together for Scooby
of the Month here.
...and eventually he seems to accept her idiosyncrasies:
Anya: Oh, that girl [April], Tara and I met her. She speaks with
a strange evenness and selects her words a shade too precisely.
Xander (looking at Anya fondly): Some of us like that kind of
thing in a girl.
Anya's quest for knowledge even makes an appearance in Xander's
dream in Restless: "I've been keeping close tabs on cultural
trends-a lot of men being unfaithful-very exciting things happening
in the scorned women market..."
Anya also takes up the challenge to teach herself. It's strange
that we seldom, if ever, see her reading, when it becomes obvious
that she must read copiously, particularly pop psychology and
women's magazines. From Into The Woods:
Dawn: When I was younger, I used to put my chopsticks in my mouth
like this (Dawn puts chopsticks in her mouth like vampire fangs)
and Buffy would chase me around the house yelling, "I'm the
Slayer! I'm gonna get you!"
Anya: That's disturbing. You're emotionally scarred and will turn
out badly.
In A New Man she helps Spike prepare to move from Xander's place
to a crypt:
Anya: Wait. (she gets up and unplugs a tall three-headed lamp
and brings it over to Spike) I want to give you something for
your new place.
Xander: That's my lamp!
Anya: A gift is traditional. I've read about it.
And, from Intervention:
Anya: We're just kinda thrown by the, you having sex with Spike.
Buffy: The who whatting how with huh?
Anya: Okay that's denial. That comes before anger.
Buffy: I am not having sex with Spike!
Anya: Anger.
In this exchange she's referring to the five stages of grief:
denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross,
On Death and Dying, 1969).
We find out in Tough Love that, in addition to her vast personal
knowledge of history and demonology, she's studied economics and
politics as well:
Anya: I've recently come to realize there's more to me than just
being human. I'm also an American.
Giles: I suppose you are, in a manner of speaking. You were born
here. Your mortal self.
Anya: That's right, foreigner. So I've been reading a lot about
the good ol' Us of A, embracing the extraordinarily precious ideology
that helped to shape and define it.
Willow: Democracy.
Anya: Capitalism. A free market dependent on the profitable exchange
of goods for currency. A system of symbiotic beauty...
Added to her reading, she makes use of the media as a free tutor.
Anya: What do I mean to you?
Xander: Well, I...we, you know, we spend...we'll talk about it
later.
Anya: I think we should talk about it now!
Xander: If you don't know how I feel-
Anya: I don't! This isn't a relationship. You don't need me! All
you care about is lots of orgasms! (Hush)
You can pretty much pick which afternoon talk show you think led
up to that conversation. And then there's this exchange, from
Where the Wild Things Are:
Anya: I don't understand-I'm pretty. I'm young...Why didn't you
take advantage of me? Is something wrong with your body?
Xander: There's nothing wrong with my body.
Anya: There must be. I saw that wrinkled man on TV talking about
erectile dysfunction...
She's willing to share her new knowledge by offering helpful suggestions
to others, such as: "In the movies, when someone goes crazy,
they slap 'em."
There is also the wealth of information available to her on the
Internet. She tells Tara, in I Was Made to Love You, "Oh,
at first it was confusing. Just the idea of computers was like-whoa-I'm
eleven hundred years old here-I had trouble adjusting to the idea
of Lutherans.
Tara: I go on-line sometimes, but everyone has really bad spelling.
It's depressing.
Anya: Oh, but you have to try on-line trading. It's great. The
secret is avoiding the tech companies everyone was jumping on,
and going with the smaller firms that supply them with the basic
components...
Not too shabby for a recent ex-demon.
...to be continued
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part
II -- Wisewoman, 21:09:32 08/08/01 Wed
Part II
Of course, being Xander's girlfriend is a "love me, love
my friends" proposition, and so Anya travels the rocky road
to Scoobydom, encountering more than a few pitfalls along the
way. While it may not seem obvious, there are two very good reasons
for Anya to want to infiltrate the Scooby Gang: 1) in order to
be accepted by Xander's friends, because he is her first priority,
and 2) in order to survive, which is her second, very practical
priority. Love of Xander means she's forced to stay on the Hellmouth
as long as that's where he is, and she figures out pretty quickly
that she's far more likely to survive in the company of the Slayer
and her friends. In The Yoko Factor, Anya points out to Xander
that the Scoobies look down on him, and he replies, "And
they hate you," which she counters with, "But they don't
look down on me." What Anya has to offer the gang in exchange
for their respect is initially the knowledge that only she, as
an ex-demon has. By The Gift, though, Anya reveals that her talent
for "thinking outside the box" is equal to her specialized
knowledge. As she so aptly puts it, "Here to help. Want to
live."
In Into The Woods she reveals how hurt she is by the gang mocking
her: "Oh, yes. Very humorous. Make fun of the ex-demon. I
can just hear you in private: 'I dislike that Anya. She is newly-human
and strangely literal.'" Understandably, she finds it easier
to bond with the other Scooby outsiders first--Tara and Spike.
She and Tara find themselves sharing Giles' bathroom during an
uncomfortable SG argument in TYF:
Tara: You think this'll go on awhile?
Anya: Hard to say.
Tara: Nice bathroom.
Anya: Like the tile.
She further cements their bond in IWMTLY, when she tells Tara
that she's tripled her wages from Giles using on-line trading:
Tara: You can do this stuff with a regular computer?
Anya: I'll show you! Also, you can see the web site I designed
for the Magic Shop. Huge photo of me...
She has even more in common with Spike in his chipped state. In
WTWTA, they commiserate at The Bronze:
Anya: Boy I miss those powers.
Spike: Yeah. Tell me about it [...]We should just go do the vengeance.
Both of us. You go eviscerate Xander, I'll stake Dru. Like, a
project.
Anya: I don't know...I just can't. You can go do Dru though.
Spike: Yeah. I will. Maybe later.
Surprisingly, Buffy seems to accept Anya at face value and they
seldom tussle (well, except for the memorable, "Stop with
the shrimp! I'm trying to do something serious here!" scene).
Anya's issues with Buffy all have to do with her possessiveness
of Xander, as demonstrated in Goodbye Iowa:
Anya: You should get a boring boyfriend, like Xander. (beat) But
you can't have Xander.
Buffy: That was the idea. Riley was supposed to be Mr. Joe Guy
[...]
Anya: So dump him. But you can't have Xander.
Buffy: I'll try to remember that...
...and later in the same ep...
Buffy: Giles and Anya will keep researching. Xander, you and I
will go in undercover.
Anya: Hey! Remember before? No Xander. Not in a boyfriend-way
or a lead-him-to-certain-death-way.
Once Riley's gone though, Anya's attitude softens. She must be
feeling a bit more secure in her relationship in IWMTLY because
she "lets" Buffy dance with Xander:
Anya: I let them do that. Dance together. That was me.
Tara: Very nice of you.
Willow: A good deed.
Anya: Yes. I'm expecting a big karmic reward any second now.
Anya has a much more difficult time winning Giles over. There's
something about her that is the antithesis to his reserved British
demeanour:
Giles: I have a friend coming to town. I'd like us to be alone.
Anya: Oh. You mean an orgasm friend.
Giles: Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could
have said.
In The Gift Giles is understandably tense, but it's Anya that
he snaps at:
Giles: Yes, Anya, apart from your incredibly uninfectious enthusiasm,
have you anything to contribute? Any ideas on how to fight a god?
Love to hear 'em.
In fact, Anya has a whole raft of ideas, enough to impress even
Giles:
Giles: Anya, that's all very-did you just think of all that just
now?
Xander: Smart chicks are so hot.
By far Anya's biggest challenge is Willow, so much so that we
have an entire episode, Triangle, devoted to the friction between
them. Anya's problem with Willow, again, is Xander-centric. Willow
is his best friend and has known him since they were little, and
there's no way Anya can compete with those years of shared experience.
She's jealous of their friendship and she's still suspicious of
Willow's intentions concerning Xander. Willow's problem with Anya
goes deeper. She's long since gotten over her Xander crush, so
it's not motivated by jealousy. It's more a personality clash.
Anya brings out the worst in Willow:
Anya: You're quoting literature I have no way to be familiar with.
You're trying to make me feel left out. And you're stealing!
Willow: I'm just taking stuff and not paying for it. In what twisted
dictionary is that stealing?
She can even drive her to downright meanness:
Anya: You endangered the money!
Willow: Right, of course that's what she cares about. (Imitating
Anya) I like money better than people. People can so rarely be
exchanged for goods and/or services.
The real crux of the matter for Willow seems to be Anya's outspokenness...
Willow: Hey, Anya. Whatever really has you mad, just say it like
you do every other thought that stomps through your brain.
...which Willow interprets as rudeness and an inability to play
by the rules:
Anya: In case we need 'em, I'm getting more of all the things
you stole.
Willow: I didn't-why do you do that?
Anya: What?
Willow: You're so rude! I mean, sure, at first, ex-demon, doesn't
know the rules. Well, now you've been here forever. Learn the
rules!
Anya: The rules are stupid.
Willow: Great. Whatever. Just thought you might be interesting
in acting more like a human. Some of us enjoy it.
Pretty nasty talk for our little Will. As often happens in real
life, it takes a major emotional outburst from both of them to
clear the air and pave the way to détente:
Anya: Oh! You think I'm going to hurt Xander? I'd never hurt Xander!
(Willow shrugs) You really think I would do that!?
Willow: Anya, it's what you do. You spent, what, a thousand years,
hurting men. You got your thousand years of hurting men gold watch.
[...]
Anya: I don't do magic now. You're the one with that kind of power.
In fact, D'Hoffryn offered you my old job! You're closer to being
a vengeance demon than I am! Maybe Xander should be afraid of
you!
Willow: Xander's my best friend!
Anya: And you don't want anyone else to have him. I know what
broke up him and Cordelia, you know. It was you! And your lips.
Willow: No, it was not! Well, yes it was so! But that was a long
time ago! You think I'd do that again?
Anya: Why not?
Willow: Hello? Gay now!
Anya: But you're always doing everything you can to point out
how much I'm an outsider. You've known him since you were squalling
infants together. You'll always know him better than I do. You
could sweep in, poison his mind against me-
Willow: You're insane! I'm not going to take him away! And I'm
not going to hurt him!
Anya: Well, I'm not either!
And there it is, in a nutshell. From this point on Willow's attitude
toward Anya softens noticeably, to the extent that she frequently
appoints Anya as guardian of the brain-sucked Tara in the last
few episodes of Season 5. Anya can confidently say to Xander,
"Willow likes you too, but not in a sexy way 'cuz she's gay,
and she won't break us up so it's all okay," and she is able
to offer support, albeit bumbling, to Willow in the wake of Tara's
tragedy:
Willow: ...it's a whole night and I don't think I can sleep without
her.
Anya: You can sleep with me. You know, that came out a lot more
lesbian than it sounded in my head.
While she's struggling to learn how to fit in with the Scoobies,
Anya is simultaneously learning The Game of Life and all that
it entails. Much has been made of her devotion to money but initially
she didn't seem to have any financial worries. Part of the set-up
for her appearance as a Sunnydale high school student included
a supposedly wealthy father who had apparently provided her with
an apartment, a car, and enough cash to see her through for several
months. In the Season 5 premiere, Buffy versus Dracula, Anya seems
completely unaware of the need for money while playing the board
game version of The Game of Life with Xander and Dawn:
Anya: Look at this. Now I am burdened with a husband and several
tiny pink children and more cash than I can reasonably manage.
Xander: That means you're winning.
Anya: Really?
Xander: Yes. Cash equals good.
Anya: Oh, I'm so pleased! Can I trade in the children for more
cash?
By the time we get to Out of My Mind and Giles is taking over
the Magic Box, her funds are running low...
Anya: ...I'm nearly out of money. I've never had to "afford"
things before and it's making me bitter.
Giles: And the change is palpable...
Despite their differences, Anya proves to be an indispensable
assistant at the shop and Giles offers her a job, which she readily
accepts. "I'm just so excited. They come in, I help them,
they give us money in exchange for goods, you give me money for
working for you... I have a place in the world now. I'm part of
the system. I'm a workin' gal." Her respect for money grows
in leaps and bounds and, as we later learn, she's able to triple
her probably meagre earnings with on-line trading. There's more
to The Game of Life than money, though. After apartment-hunting
with Xander in The Replacement, she tells him she's been thinking
about their future together:
Anya: I mean, what's next in our lives? When do we get a car?
Xander: A car?
Anya: And a boat. No, wait. I don't mean a boat. I mean a puppy.
Or a child? I have a list somewhere.
As John Burwood so insightfully pointed out in a recent post,
"Anya's list is a garbled allusion to what real life, and
real love, are all about. Real love is not about romance or sex
but about sharing a life, including homes, taxes, children, boats,
etc. It is about normal life..."
And what could be more important to an ex-demon than a normal
life? Anya is threatened by the appearance of members of the Watcher's
Council in Checkpoint and her attempts to appear "normal"
are laughable.
Travers: You, miss, you work here?
Anya: Yes. I do. Ever since I moved here from south-eastern Indiana
where I was raised by a mother and a father.
When a member of CoW asks her for her name she replies, "Anya
Christina Emmanuella Jenkins. Twenty years old. Born on the fourth
of July, and don't think there weren't jokes about that my whole
life, mister, 'cause there were. "Who's our little patriot?"
they'd say when I was younger and therefore smaller and shorter
than I am now."
When it's pointed out that she has no special skills or powers
or knowledge to bring the group, she says, "Just enthusiasm
for killing the demons. Go deadness for the demons!"
While she may never come across as "normal" to most
of the inhabitants of the Buffyverse, Anya has succeeded admirably
in winning a place in Xander's heart, and in the lives of those
closest to him. This is beautifully confirmed in Into The Woods,
when Xander finally expresses the extent of his feeling for her:
"I need to say something to you. I should have said it a
long time ago. I mean, you may not even know...I love you, Anya,
more every day. I love the way you see things. I love the way
you work a cash register and how beautiful you are-and how amazingly
sweet and crazy you can be at the same time...I can't imagine
my days without you-and I wouldn't want to."
In fact, the best measure of Anya's progress from demon to human
is how she's dealt with those twin bastions of humanness; love
and death. As I said earlier, Anya's behaviour is usually motivated
by her love for Xander, except when it's motivated by her fear
of death, and the two motivations sometimes conflict. Anya's worry
about her human mortality surfaces in The Replacement. In a previous
episode she's been injured in a vamp attack and has a dislocated
shoulder. Her arm is in a sling. When she tells Xander that they
better hurry up and have a life because she's dying, and may have
as little as 50 years left, he rapidly concludes that the recent
injury has prompted her fear:
Xander: You haven't been hurt like this since you became human.
Maybe it's finally hitting you what being human means...You were
going to live for thousands more years. Now you're going to age
and...die. It must be terrifying.
Anya confirms this in The Gift:
Anya: ...you see, usually, when there's an apocalypse, I skedaddle.
But now I love you so much that instead I have inappropriately
timed sex and try to think of ways to fight a god and worry terribly
that something might happen to you, and also worry that something'll
happen to me and then I have guilt that I'm not more worried about
everyone else but I just don't have enough, I'm just on total
overload and I honestly don't think anything could make me more
nervous than I am right now.
Of course it's terrifying. For someone so obsessed with learning
how to be human, death presents a major stumbling block. That,
in combination with Anya's inability to prevaricate, gives us
what, for my money, is the best written and most moving scene
in five years; Anya's reaction to Joyce's death in The Body:
Anya: Are they gonna cut the body open?
Willow: Oh my god will you shut your mouth? Just not open it please?
Anya: What am I doing?
Willow: How can you act like that?
Anya: Am I supposed to be changing my clothes a lot, is that the
helpful thing to do-
Xander: Guys...
Willow: The way you behave-
Anya: Well nobody will tell me-
Willow: Because it's not okay for you to be asking these things!
Anya: BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND! I don't understand how this all
happens, how we go through this, I mean I knew her and then she's,
there's just a body, I don't understand why she just can't get
back in it and not be dead, it's stupid, it's mortal and stupid,
Xander's crying and not talking and I was having fruit punch and
I thought that Joyce would never have any more fruit punch and
she'd never have eggs, or yawn, or brush her hair, not ever and
no one will explain why...
Willow: We don't know. How it works. Or why.
Later, at the morgue, Anya tries to express her feelings to Buffy,
much to Willow's and Xander's discomfort:
Anya: I wish that Joyce didn't die. Because she was nice and now
we all hurt.
Xander: Anya, ever the wordsmith.
But Buffy isn't offended. In fact, she acts as if that was exactly
the right thing to say, and just replies, sincerely, "Thank
you."
And yet, despite Anya's fear of death she's more than willing
to sacrifice herself for the man she loves. In Triangle Olaf tries
to force Xander to choose whether Anya or Willow will die, and
when Xander won't make that choice Olaf threatens to kill him
instead. Anya immediately offers herself, saying, "Choose
me! Choose me to die! Just don't take him!" She proves herself
again in the final moments of The Gift when she pushes Xander
out of the way and takes the full brunt of a collapsing wall herself.
The death of Joyce, someone that she knows and likes, is what
finally brings Anya face to face with what life is really all
about, and in the following exchange with Xander we find that
the pupil has become the teacher. They have just finished making
love...
Anya: That was different.
Xander: It was more...intense. Very intense, actually.
Anya: It's because of Joyce.
Xander: Right, I...huh?
Anya: She died. She's gone forever.
Xander: Yeah. I kinda picked up on that.
Anya: Well, she got me thinking...About how people die all the
time...And how they get born too...And how you kind of need one
so you can have the other.
Xander: True. It would get kind of crowdy and stinky on Earth
if nobody vacated.
Anya: And when I think about it that way, it makes death a little
less sad and sex a little more exciting.
Xander: Again I say-huh?
Anya: Well, I just feel like I understand sex more. It isn't just
about two bodies smooshing together. It's about life.
Xander: Got it. What makes you feel more alive than the good stuff?
Anya: Exactly. Sex is like a big party for our aliveness. But
it's more than that. It's about making life.
Xander: Right! When two people are much older and way richer and
far less stupid-
Anya: Breathe. You're turning colors. I'm not ready to make life
with you. but I could, we could. Life could come out of our love
and our smooshing and that's beautiful...It all makes me feel
like we're part of something bigger. Like I'm more awake somehow,
you know?
Xander: Yeah. I do.
At this point the ex-vengeance demon understands more about life
than many of the people I've met in the Realverse, and it's easy
to see how this scene leads directly to Xander's proposal of marriage
in The Gift. Xander has chosen the right woman for him. She's
no longer a demon, she's not a witch, she's not a vampire (with
or without soul), and she's not really a hero-but she's become
an honest, sensitive, loving human being-and perhaps her real
journey is just beginning...
...to be continued
(With thanks to Rayne's Shooting Script Site, and Psyche's Transcripts.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part
II with corrected links -- Wisewoman, 21:23:34 08/08/01 Wed
Part III
Well, I'm done at last. But for those of you dedicated enough
to make it to the end, there are a couple of other little aspects
of Anya that I've saved for last...
BUNNIES!
and
SHRIMP!!
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[> [> [> Ooh! Bunnies -- d'Herblay, 21:37:21 08/08/01
Wed
There's more grailness coming up . . .
Also, one quick question. You took a lot from the shooting scripts,
and I don't recall ever hearing the line, "Ladies and gentleman,
put your hands together for Scooby of the Month here." I'm
guessing it's from "The Gift." If not, what was the
context?
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[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh! Bunnies -- Wisewoman, 21:45:51
08/08/01 Wed
Oh, darn it! I thought I'd crossed checked them all with Psyche's
transcripts, but that one got past me. It was cut from Out Of
My Mind. Good catch!
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Now I'm just being a wise ass --
d'Herblay, 22:09:01 08/08/01 Wed
"No Place Like Home."
I wonder why they cut the Dave Eggers reference?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now I'm just being a wise
ass -- Wisewoman, 22:21:52 08/08/01 Wed
Not at all! That's part of the fun. If you could see the condition
my office is in right now, you'd understand how these little oversights
happened! I'm just glad the post is done and I can get on with
the rest of my vacation... ;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> another shooting script/aired show
difference? -- anom, 22:31:53 08/12/01 Sun
First, kudos to Wisewoman! Very impressive.
I remember Xander's "love" speech to Anya differently
in the episode (Into the Woods, I think) as it aired. After the
"something to tell you" intro, it started: "I'm
in love with you. Powerfully, painfully in love...." I think
this is another instance where changes were made from the dialog
in the shooting script.
The scene Wisewoman cited in the hospital after Joyce dies, when
Anya says, "I wish your mom didn't die..." seems to
me to be an example of something Xander does fairly often: presuming
to speak for the others, who he thinks--usually wrongly--will
object to what she's just said. I think he overestimates both
the inappropriateness of Anya's words & the willingness of the
others to allow for her learning curve. On the other hand, he
does often jump in either to steer Anya toward passing for normal
or to defend/excuse her when she doesn't.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: another shooting script/aired
show difference? -- Wisewoman, 06:47:12 08/13/01 Mon
Hi anom! I'm sure you're right. I'll look through my (copious)
notes and see which version I ended up using...but it was probably
the shooting script version. I'm just on my way over to Vancouver
Island for a few days, so I'll check when I get back...although
the next Anniversary post will be up by then, and Anya will have
faded into the past!
As to Xander's "covering" for Anya, I can see him having
to do it a fair bit in public, if only to keep the whole "ex-demon"
thing a secret, but with the SG it seems to be unnecessary. They
all know who Anya was, and they should understand when she makes
a gaffe. Maybe it's the reactions of people like Giles and Willow,
and the fact the Xander, himself, has been fairly insecure, that
cause him to over react...
;o)
Have a good week, guys!
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[> [> [> Fine Job -- Cactus Watcher, 22:06:48 08/08/01
Wed
Anya seems to be the character the writers, including Joss, can't
get straight. In season three she owns a car. In season five she
doesn't know what the accelerator is for. The day the Magic Show
opens with Giles as owner she is buying "conjuring powder."
As you pointed out Anya tells Willow not long after in The Triangle
she doesn't do spells anymore. Then we have Joss himself putting
nonsense about Olaf the troll "god" in her mouth in
The Gift. It's too bad the writers didn't pay half as much attention
to the details about her as you did! I'm sure part of the problem
is how fast they're developing Anya from a 2D sex-maniac ex-demon
to a functioning, thinking, human being. No one at Mutant Enemy
seems to know quite where she's come from or where she's going.
But, in general she's turning out well. As I said a couple days
ago, Anya has really grown on me.
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[> [> [> [> Thanks! -- Wisewoman, 22:13:46 08/08/01
Wed
The inconsistencies in Anya abound, more in the details than in
her actual character. I think you're right, it might be a case
of the actor proving herself to be more valuable on-screen than
the material she was originally given, and then the writer's having
to scramble to think up ways to insert her into the action. Whether
she's driving or not, she seems to fall into the potholes on the
Plothole Highway!
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[> [> [> [> Darn dyslexia! Make that 'Magic Shop.'
-- Cactus Watcher, 22:15:09 08/08/01 Wed
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[> [> [> Thanks for the shrimp fix...I can rest easy
now. Great post! -- Anthony8, 22:33:23 08/08/01 Wed
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[> [> [> LOL!! -- Marie, 04:33:32 08/09/01 Thu
This post has almost made me forget the weather!
Anya the character has always made me laugh, and I love the interaction
between her and Xander - I always felt that Xander needed someone
he could watch over, as well as love, and Anya fulfils this need
in him beautifully, because she watches over him, too. And you
know, I have to here admit that while I didn't cry when Joyce's
body was discovered by Buffy, Anya's distress did it! Such a wonderful
piece of acting by Ms. Caulfield.
Oh! And I never realised before today that the Caerbannog Cwningen
(Rabbit) tale was known in other countries beside Wales!
You're a wonderful wordsmith - why aren't you writing for Rel-oops!
Dark Alchemy!?
Marie
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[> [> [> [> Errr, it's the....ummm... *cough* fiction
*cough* thing... -- Wisewoman, 09:32:46 08/09/01 Thu
Thank you so much for your kind words, Marie! I only wish I could
do what you guys are doing on Dark Alchemy. You'll notice perhaps
that even the two parts of the Anya Post that I totally fabricated
(Bunnies and Shrimp) are done in a kind of straightforward, reportage
style? That's because I absolutely SUCK at writing fiction! And
believe me, I've tried, time and again. I get what I think are
stunningly original story ideas and when I try to put them on
paper they turn into banal tripe! Aaaaargh!
I just keep telling myself, "It's okay. You can do other
things..."
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Even if the execution's a bit rough,
the ideas are always welcome... -- Talking Drum, 10:20:24 08/09/01
Thu
With such talented editors and collaborators as Sol and the others,
you'd be amazed at how your ideas can be organized. I had contributed
one segment that I thought was a little vague and scattered, but
Sol transformed it into coherent dialog. I was temporarily amazed
at my own brilliance until I realized that without the editorial
help my stuff would have been total nonsense. I'm embarrassed
that he gave me all the credit for that passage. So when you read
that Hellmouth-Slayer-Symbiosis section, mentally add at least
50% of the credit to Sol.
So don't be shy, there are some very talented people involved
in the project who can really help tweak any of your ideas, no
matter how incoherent you may believe them to be, into literary
form.
TD
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm just another stuntperson.
Really. -- Solitude1056, 12:28:59 08/09/01 Thu
Me don' need no stinkin' credit! (hehehe)
Editors, like stuntpeople, are really only doing their job well
when you're not aware that they're even there. I've edited more
than usual in the collaboration, but that's more to do with the
fact that each person's got a distinct voice. For the sake of
a cohesive story, the "voices" all need to be more similar
or else the reader may trip up over the stylistic changes. So
my real effort's been focused on that, with Marie helping out
to make sure we spelled stuff correctly (and didn't butcher british
slang!) and got our grammar right, too. For all that, the real
work's when the individual writer says, "how can I express
this, and what can I come up with?" Some folks can do it
with dialogue, others by sending me paragraphs in email that later
become dialogue-exposition, and some are just priceless at description.
Each person rounds out for the others, so we end up with (hopefully)
a really good story. So WW's claim that she couldn't join us because
she "doesn't write like that" is complete KAPHOOEY.
None of us write like that - the style's a strange amalgamation
of 10 different folks.
Oh, wait, that's why it's called a joint effort. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting
Party--Part II with corrected links -- JBone, 20:49:38 08/10/01
Fri
Wow. Great job. I love these essays! I'll include this Anya essay
along with the brilliant Riley essay as prime examples to visit
this board. Compared to other characters who have numerous fans,
I don't see all that many Riley or Anya fans. At least any that
don't sound like they're 15 years old. This is really great stuff,
I love it!
I am almost embarrassed to contradict something in Wisewoman's
essay, but it's just bugging me too much. Forgive me, you attribute
a scene to Anya and Giles to the episode "Halloween",
but I'd bet my first born (not that I know I have one) that the
episode was "Fear Itself."
As far as the rest of the Anya essay, the only thing that struck
me was that Buffy and Anya have never had any real head to head
confrontation that impacted anyone other than Buffy or Anya themselves.
I find it fascinating that Buffy has given Anya such a wide berth
in a world where Buffy rules. I can't believe that this friendly
behavior will continue without some kind of confrontation along
the lines of Willow/Anya in "Triangle." Or maybe Xander
means as little to Buffy as a lot of people have hinted (or said)
he means to her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Anya and Buffy -- Cactus Watcher, 06:05:53
08/11/01 Sat
Very early in Willow's friendship with Buffy, she staked out Xander
as her territory. Buffy obviously put a big check in the off-limits
column for Xander. But, if you've noticed since Tara came along,
Xander and Buffy have really been closer friends than Willow and
Buffy. He's the one who tries to be straight with her even when
it looks like it could damage their friendship. Buffy isn't thrilled
with Anya. She came very close to saying it, when Xander tried
to warn her about losing Riley. But, as far back as Pangs in season
four she has declared her acceptance that Anya is now part of
the package that is Xander. Anya isn't the kind of person who
needs cuddly relationships with everyone around her. This gives
plenty of room for Buffy to be civil with her without being thrilled
with her. If Anya ever does hurt Xander look for Buffy to say
whatever a best friend needs to say, and for Willow to get very
emotional about it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> You're right! -- Wisewoman, 08:35:57 08/11/01
Sat
I know how I made that one...I was seeing her saying those lines
in the Bunny costume and my mind made the leap to Halloween, instead
of Fear Itself.
Thanks for the catch!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Giles and Anya -- Malandanza, 06:05:15 08/11/01
Sat
In "New Moon Rising" there was another clash between
Anya and Giles. Interestingly, the scene in the shooting script
is much more sympathetic to Anya than is the actual script:
(From the shooting script -- Rayne's site)
GILES: So activity hasn't stopped, just shifted. Fascinating...
ANYA: To an extremely bored person, maybe. All you're really saying
is - slow week for Buffy. Busy week for Riley. Pardon me if I
delay my freak out until
we actually know something.
BUFFY: She's got a point. It's not much to go on.
ANYA: See? Buffy agrees with me. (to Xander)Let's go to the movies.
GILES:(defensive) I confess- it could be nothing, but it
could also indicate any number of threatening scenarios.
ANYA: Fine. What would you like us to do?
GILES: Well. I suppose you could... I think we should all -
BUFFY: Keep an eye out for threatening scenarios?
GILES: Precisely.
The gang start to gather their things and head for the door.
ANYA: Well - that was a thrilling hour.
GILES: I do not appreciate your snide remarks, Anya. I have a
great deal of experience in these matters and when I tell you
I feel something of import brewing, I-I...
(and this is from the Psyche's Transcripts)
GILES: (coming out of kitchen with bowl) So the activity's shifted
but not stopped. (Hands bowl to Willow, but she doesn't take it)
That's fascinating. (Sits at desk and puts bowl down)
ANYA: To an extremely bored person, maybe. (Giles looks annoyed)
Well, that was a thrilling hour.
(Everyone starts to get up.)
GILES: (rising) You know, I really don't appreciate your snide
remarks, Anya. (Anya and Xander look at him in surprise) Now,
I have a great deal of experience in these matters...
(We hear the door open. Buffy and Riley look toward it. Giles
keeps talking)
GILES: ...and if I say there is a matter of some import brewing,
I-I-
In both cases, it seems as though Giles is a little too upset
than the comments warranted. Giles is used to a certain amount
of disrespect from his young friends -- certainly, Cordelia's
comments were as deprecating. Anya's remarks, additionally, were
not made with any malice. She had legitimate complaints. Giles'
seems overly sensitive -- perhaps because he sees Anya's remarks
as an assault on his authority. Elsewhere Anya has stated that
she has more knowledge than Giles on magical matters (from her
sojourn as a demon). My feeling is that Giles feels threatened,
subconsciously, and lashes out at Anya as a result. There is alos
a tendency for Giles to take a lecturing tone with Anya, as if
she were a child instead of a 1100+ year-old entity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Wisewoman finally puts out (her post)... and there was much
rejoicing. -- dan, 21:45:21 08/08/01 Wed
Great job, Wisewoman! I appreciate the extensive quotage, and
you've endeared Anya to me a little further. Question, though:
where do you see Anya going from here? what's her next self-project
to work on?
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: LOL! Okay, what's next...? (Could be spoilery...)
-- Wisewoman, 21:54:03 08/08/01 Wed
Hmmm, well I pretty much think it's a given that with Giles leaving
Anya will take on more responsibility in the running of the Magic
Shop. Or Giles may sell the shop and she'll be looking for another
job and all sorts of wackiness might ensue...chocolate factory,
anyone?
Otherwise, I think we may be in for a bit of a bumpy ride in the
relationship with Xander in Season 6. Joss seldom gives his characters
an even break, and Xander and Anya were both *way* too happy after
he proposed... maybe her insecurities will surface and she'll
start to doubt her ability to be a "human" wife. I think
she'll continue to entertain us with her rollercoaster ride along
the learning curve, though. It's just been established as so integral
to her character.
And, hey, if I really made you like her more, then my work here
is done!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: LOL! Okay, what's next...? (Could be spoilery...)
-- Rattletrap, 06:10:21 08/09/01 Thu
Just a thought . . . what do you think are the chances of an episode
dealing with Anyanka's origins? We've seen one of those for most
of the other "old" characters, and that kind of thing
might be a nice lead-in to an X/A wedding or break-up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Ooooh, I like that idea! -- Wisewoman,
09:21:50 08/09/01 Thu
It would certainly clear up some of the inconsistencies in the
scripts as to how Anyanka came to be! I'll keep my fingers crossed...
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Rufus and I are going tree hunting-- we'll be back later...
:) -- OnM, 21:49:11 08/08/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Shhhhhhh....we have a secret partnership, remember???:):):)
-- Rufus, 23:04:30 08/08/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The Washington Post exclaims "insightful and hilarious"
-- Slayrunt, 23:34:03 08/08/01 Wed
Very good post, Wisewoman, and a well deserved Nee to you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Bravo! -- Liquidram, 01:45:57 08/09/01 Thu
Great job! Anya has not been my favorite character, but I will
definitely be watching her in a different light.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Terrific, better than Cats! -- Brian, 08:32:25 08/09/01
Thu
Neat Stuff here. Gave me lots of new thoughts about the character.
Loved all that textual support. Way to go!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Be very, very careful when you mention cats
here... -- Squonk's Tears, 10:30:52 08/09/01 Thu
...and step slowly away from the feline please and you won't get
hurt. ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part
I -- Rattletrap, 06:12:01 08/09/01 Thu
Fine job Wisewoman. Anya has been one of the most fun characters
to watch develop, and you've done a great job tracking that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part
I -- LadyStarlight, 06:51:37 08/09/01 Thu
Wonderful job! I think you're right, and Anya's development will
continue to be explored. Watching Anya plan the wedding (if they
get that far) should be interesting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part
I -- VampRiley, 09:25:38 08/09/01 Thu
Loved it. Many of Anya's funny lines together, it great. My favorite:
Anya: I've recently come to realize there's more to me than just
being human. I'm also an American.
Giles: I suppose you are, in a manner of speaking. You were born
here. Your mortal self.
Anya: That's right, foreigner. So I've been reading a lot about
the good ol' Us of A, embracing the extraordinarily precious ideology
that helped to shape and define
it.
Willow: Democracy?
Anya: Capitalism. A free market dependent on the profitable exchange
of goods for currency. A system of symbiotic beauty...
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part
I -- Nina, 10:43:04 08/09/01 Thu
Thank you Wisewoman! That was one fine post!!!! (two in fact).
I already liked Anya, but it's always fun to get someone else's
point of view on a character. Probably because you've managed
to well define every aspect of her personality, Anya seems a lot
more coherent now.
I can't say I laugh a lot at her comments, but it's amazing to
see how she is developping into a caring and loving woman. When
she sacrificed herself in "The Gift", she made the ultimate
proof that she has changed. She has evolved.
Inconsistencies are part of the ME' deal. They don't know how
to count, and they probably don't spend as much time as we do
analyzing the past events. Too busy planning the future. Imperfection
makes them human. So I wouldn't be surprised if we found more
inconsistencies to Anya next year.
Anyway... Good work Wisewoman. No wonder your office needs tidying
now! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Just let me add my thanks ... most interesting! -- verdantheart,
11:00:30 08/09/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Sincere thanks to everyone who responded so kindly...and
a question -- Wisewoman, 11:47:59 08/09/01 Thu
In my research into Anyanka/Anya I came across several web sites
referring to the character as "Anya Emerson." The only
mention of a surname I could find in a script was when she told
the CoW her name was "Anya Emmanuella Jenkins."
Anybody have any idea where the Emerson comes from?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Guess. -- d'Herblay, 12:09:20 08/09/01 Thu
Doesn't seem to have been used in an episode or a shooting script,
but you knew that . . .
My guess is that she was given that name in the Sunnydale High
School Yearbook. Everyone who had that book knew that Jonathan's
last name was Levinson well before the producers used the name
in an episode. But that's just a guess. Anyone have a hard copy
for confirmation?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Evidence. -- d'Herblay, 12:28:13 08/09/01 Thu
This page credits the Yearbook with giving us Anya's name.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> That is some truly obnoxious web design.
(No offense if it's yours, but... the background?) -- Solitude1056,
12:32:03 08/09/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: That is some truly obnoxious
web design. (No offense if it's yours, but... the background?)
-- d'Herblay, 14:29:51 08/09/01 Thu
Yeah, it's awful. Also, I try to avoid linking to sites with pop-ups.
But this was the only result I had on a Google search of "Sunnydale
High School Yearbook" and "Anya Emerson."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Guess. - Yep, page 72. -- Cactus Watcher,
14:43:54 08/09/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Guess. -- LadyStarlight, 16:40:56 08/09/01
Thu
Also, in The Watcher's Guide, Vol 2, Anya is listed as Anya Emerson.
Maybe she was lying to the CoW?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya in the Buffysystem -- mundusmundi, 15:31:29 08/09/01
Thu
I liked your observation about Anya's Xander-centrism. Got me
thinking about the celestial arrangement of the Buffyverse. Some
of the supporting characters are like moons rotating around the
main players: Anya (Xandercentric), Tara (Willowcentric, as Malandazza
once mentioned), and Spike (Buffycentric). Then, we have the Fab
Four, our major constellation: Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles.
Buffy of course is the most important, but all seem to chart their
own courses more so than the others. (Dawn is the Pluto of the
group, the newest, smallest, and still debatable as to whether
she rotates around Buffy or follows her own orbit.)
Wow, that was really weird. Anyway, I also think that it's time
for a Fool for Love type episode for Anya, if for nothing else
than to see that wonderful comic actor from ER who plays Olaf
back again. Anya's a great comic creation, but I'd like to see
some more depth and shadings to her character (your post provided
some that I missed, WW, but there's still lotsa untapped potential
there).
Anya is one of the most quotable characters in the BV. But my
favorite moment with her is a silent one: at the start of Crush,
where she dances with Xander. She smiles giddily, like a woman
who never knew anything could be so much fun, who's thrilled simply
to be alive....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Becoming Human -- Rufus, 23:52:45 08/09/01 Thu
I really need to get a new printer...I'm considering a laser as
opposed to ink so anyone who can comment on the benefits of either
are welcome.
Great post btw, Anya is a character that has had to develop slowly
from demon to person, and it took way longer than one game of
life. I wonder if in the Prom Anya could even imagine getting
engaged to a man, the man she was originally there to do a vengeance
thing on. I find it quite ironic that the man she was willing
to dismember in the name of all jilted women is the one man with
the patience to guide Anya to humanity(I'm sure the sex helped).
Love and hate are quite close to each other and Anya has had hundreds
of years of hate to perfect her craft. I'm glad her power centre
was destroyed. It left her a person who had to get over her hatred
of men instead of indulging her anger in such destruction. Giles
said that vengeance is never sated, I would like to see Anya's
take on that sentiment.
Becoming human is more than a game it's living, the hardest thing
to do. As a human you never know what will happen next, as a demon
Anya had power to control all around her including time. Now,
Anya is finding out that time will catch her as she now can age
and die. She may be strangely literal but at least Anya tries.
I'd also like to see why a little fluffy bunny frightens her so,
could it be her ability to reproduce will also catch up with her?
Then she'd be really human.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Oh, Rufus, didn't you read Bunnies and Shrimp...?
-- Wisewoman, 09:29:23 08/10/01 Fri
If you go to the third section of my post, the one that says "with
corrected links" there's a little explanation of why Anya
is afraid of bunnies...or maybe you *did* read it, and you want
to know why she's really afraid of them? You got me. We just haven't
been given enough info to know.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Yes, I read it........:):):) -- Rufus, 12:08:20
08/10/01 Fri
In Fear Itself, Anya wore what she thought of as a scary costume.
When Xander asked her why a Bunny....she just said Bunnies frighten
me.....so why? And who keeps planting bunnies in her path?:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Late Praise -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 07:06:05 08/10/01
Fri
It's nice when you finish reading these posts with the feeling
that you have nothing to add or argue about. However, this does
leave you with, well, nothing to add or argue about so I apologise
for the fundamental lack of response - great job, though.
BTW, I may be forced to repeat a fair number of those quotes in
my Xander post in a couple of weeks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> That's the thing...can't really discuss Anya... --
Wisewoman, 09:32:50 08/10/01 Fri
...without discussing Xander, and vice-versa! They come as a pair,
at least for the last 2 1/2 years.
And thanks!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Brava! -- rowan, 18:44:22 08/10/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya: First Anniversary Character Posting Party--Part
I -- Isabel, 21:52:31 08/10/01 Fri
Wow! Great Job. I've always loved Anya. Reading all these posts
has my brain buzzing with lots of things. Please forgive my randomness.
I loved your little 'Bunnies' and 'Shrimp' stories. 'Bunnies'
was pretty much how I figured that Anya got afraid of rabbits.
(I know people with rabbits as pets and rabbits can be quite vicious
if provoked.) I always imagined that Anya learned of the 'Land
of Nothing but Shrimp' from a vengeance where she was asked to
exile a shrimp allergic man there. But what do I know? I can also
see Anya learning the hard way that once shrimp is smelly and
slimy, it doesn't matter how much hard earned American dollars
she paid for it, it has to go in the garbage.
I love Anya and Xander as couple. Your treatment of them was well
done. I can't imagine one without the other, which of course means
that they've got some painful bumps in the road coming. No matter
what happens, I hope we get to see Anya plan her wedding. It's
gonna be a hoot. No matter what she does it will be well researched
and excruciatingly explained. (My imagination again: I can see
her picking out bridesmaid dresses for Buffy, Willow and Tara
and explaining to them that of course she chose a canary yellow
dress that makes Buffy look short, a hot pink dress for Willow
that makes her flat chested and a burnt orange dress for Tara
that makes her look fat. The bridesmaids aren't supposed to outshine
the bride, so they've got to wear ugly dresses. It's tradition.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Isabel -- Masquerade, 22:09:55 08/10/01 Fri
We interupt this thread to ask you to please submit an entry to
the ATPoBtVS poster profiles at
http://home.4w.com/pages/btvs/posters.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Um, Masquerade? -- Isabel, 22:44:44 08/10/01
Fri
How do I do that? Do I answer the questions and email them to
you? I looked at the "Poster" pages and there doesn't
seem to be a form to fill out. Maybe it's 1:30 in the morning
and I'm missing something somewhere. Or maybe I'm giddy because
cool air is coming in my windows and I can actually get to sleep
tonight. (Whoo Hoo!)
I went on vacation and when I got back there were new aspects
to the board that surprised and alarmed me. I was planning on
catching up on the back posts when all of a sudden most of the
archives vanished. I guess the board fairies were telling me to
read for today and forget about the past.
And one last question, How do I find the 1st Anniversary essays?
I know I've missed Faith, and I may have missed other characters
as well. Everybody's done such a wonderful job, I don't want to
miss any of them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Essays and Intros -- Masq, 08:15:00 08/11/01
Sat
Copy the questions and email your answers to me. Sorry I didn't
mention that. Everyone seems to know my email address already--probably
got it off my website.
Examples at: http://home.4w.com/pages/btvs/posters.html
Anniversary posts start at: http://home.4w.com/pages/btvs/angel.html
You will find links to the rest at the bottom of each page.
Discussions of posts are in the new archives I'm getting together.
Will be on Liquidram's site soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Great post. After this and the Riley post, hard acts to
follow -- Sam Gamgee, 09:11:00 08/11/01 Sat
Question for Masq -- d'Herblay (not a lawyer), 22:47:04 08/08/01
Wed
In reading Wisewoman's Anya post, I found myself wanting to see
the quotes she cited in their original context and, especially,
wanting to know if they were from the transcripts or the shooting
scripts. So, I was thinking that when I do my Mayor post, I would
link the quotes to their sources.
However, I wouldn't want to make you liable for the copyright
violations of others. Quoting a source for "review purposes"
tends to be exempted from the copyright laws, and what we do here
and what you do on ATP would fall under that. What Psyche and
Mustreadtv do, however, is lawyer bait. And when lawyers go after
an internet site, they tend to go after those sites linking to
it too.
Do you have a policy on this? Would you prefer I not link to scripts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Question for Masq -- Masquerade, 23:15:38 08/08/01 Wed
I have a disclaimer on my page that says everything is the property
of Joss, Mutant Enemy Production Company, the WB, etc, etc. and
I make no profit off of it. It's standard faire for fan internet
sites.
Plus, my "links" page is really a "References"
section like you might find in a college term paper, siting Pyches's
transcripts, Rayne's shooting scripts, theslayershow's pics by
using links to their sites.
What people have done with the 1st Anniversary Posts is add a
note at the bottom telling the source of their quotes, which is
usually Psyche or their own legal home-viewing video tapes.
If that still makes you edgy, you can link to the sites, or even
add a "BtVS is the property of Joss, Mutant Enemy, blah blah,
I am making no profit off this character analysis, it's for entertainment
purposes only"
Of course, filling in the "blahs" and using better grammer
than that. : )
Does that help any?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> We've got disclaimers on the fiction, too, natch.
It's usual thing to do. -- Solitude1056, 23:27:44 08/08/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> But the fiction doesn't quote an *entire* episode
. . . -- d'Herblay, 23:54:52 08/08/01 Wed
. . . as Psyche's site does.
I'm not worried about the legality of quoting individual lines.
That's fair use; we're covered there. I'm not worried about the
legality of using characters that don't technically belong to
us. That's become so widespread as to resist legal action. I'm
worried about what happens when Fox goes on one of their legal
kicks and goes after sites which reproduce entire episodes of
work that belongs to Fox. When cyberlawyers in the past have targeted
copyright violators, they have also gone after pages which contain
no copyright violations but which link to those that do. My proposal
to link quotes to the scripts they are taken from would put Masq
in that position. Psyche puts up disclaimers, and I haven't seen
an ad there (and, of course, it's a German site), but it's still
clearly a copyright violation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> OK! Thanks! -- d'Herblay, 23:27:50 08/08/01 Wed
Let me recapitulate what I think you're saying just to make sure
I understand you:
a) I can link directly to the individual shooting scripts and
transcripts,
b) I should add a disclaimer.
I just want to make sure you're comfortable. I'd hate to do something
that, should Fox go on one of its rampages, gets you in trouble,
even if the trouble's just an e-mail asking you to remove links.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: OK! Thanks! -- Masq, 06:31:10 08/09/01 Thu
If I get in trouble with Fox, it'll be for sins I committed long
before I posted your character analysis. Relax and write it and
enjoy yourself!
Stem Cell Research (O/T) -- Kerri, 18:51:12 08/09/01 Thu
Hey everyone,
Yes, I know this has absolutely nothing to do with BtVS, but seeing
as this is a philosophy board I thought that this topic was appropriate.
As most of you who live in the US, and probably others as well,
know Bush decided to fund limited stem cell research with federal
funds. I was wondering how you felt about this decission. Should
he have done more? Or is this adequit or perhaps too much? Personally
I think that stem cell research should be done. If the embryo
is going to be discarded I don't have a problem with research
breing done that could possibly save millions of lives. I was
just curious to see how you all felt.
~Kerri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Stem Cell Research (O/T) -- cknight, 20:46:40 08/09/01
Thu
I think its good that Bush is backing it. Those cells are the
only cells that can become any cell. To unlock that mystery would
be a great thing. To maybe find a way to
end cancer and be able to heal anything else :).
Who knows maybe one day with cell control we'd be able to
re-grow body parts that are wearing out. So I agree, it's a good
thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Stem Cell Research (O/T) -- spotjon, 07:58:24 08/10/01
Fri
Well, I have mixed feelings about it. I am very thankful that
Bush is not allowing federal funding for researchers to kill more
embryos for their stem cells. That was the big issue for me. I'm
a little iffy about him allowing funding for already existing
stem cell lines, though. I believe that those embryos are living
people, and should have the same rights of any other human being
in this country. I wonder whether or not Bush should have allowed
funding that is based on embryos who have already been killed.
On the one hand, those babies are already dead, and nothing can
be done to change that, so why not use what we have? On the other
hand, does using those cell lines implicitly condone what was
done to those babies? I'm reminded of a debate I heard years ago
concerning whether or not doctors should use research performed
by Nazi doctors at the expense of Jewish lives. Would using that
research implicitly condone what the Nazis had done, or should
we use it anyway, since we can't change the past, but the research
could be used for good? Not an easy decision, but still one that
needed to be made.
I think that Bush put a lot of thought into his decision, and
he did consider advice from a lot of people. I'm not certain that
I would have made a different decision, so I'm don't know how
much I can critique his.
What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Slayrunt, 00:59:36
08/10/01 Fri
And what scares you in real life?
I raise these questions as I sit here at 3am reading about Jack
the Ripper in the dark and starting to look around nervously.
The scariest moment on Buffy for me was when Riley staked Spike
and they immediately cut for a word from our sponsors. I spent
the next 2 minutes running around the house screaming Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,
not Spike. Take Giles. Take Xander. Take Willow. No, wait, don't
take Willow, but take anyone else.
In real life, it's water. Deep dark water. It's a thing from my
childhood
On a side note. I was watching Whoopi Goldberg's talk show (many,
many years ago), and Stephen King was her guest. She asked him
what scares him and I really enjoyed his answer. He said what
scares him is the thought of going into a dark room and feeling
around for the lightswitch and not finding it. Then something
takes his hand and moves it onto the lightswitch.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- d'Herblay,
01:19:52 08/10/01 Fri
Similar moment--when Doc stabbed Spike on the platform in "The
Gift." I had heard a third-hand rumor that someone would
die, saw the pain on Spike's face and gasped. Then I took a moment
and said, "You can't kill him with a knife." But for
a moment, Spike's life flashed before my eyes.
Different moment--in "The Initiative," when Willow says,
"I'll scream," and Spike replies, "Bonus,"
before pinning her down. One of the most chilling moments in Buffy
history.
Real life--lobsters. Huge spikey things with their skeletons on
the outside; all legs and antennae and independantly moving eyes
and mouths that are really modified legs. Bugs that are too big
to step on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Oh thanks....that's one dinner shot to hell.....:):):)
-- Rufus, 01:47:57 08/10/01 Fri
What other food would you like to ruin for me??:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Speaking of frightening crustaceans... -- Squonk's
Tears, 11:50:56 08/10/01 Fri
...I used to keep a terrarium of sorts in my basement, experimenting
with various configurations to see if I could recreate a mini
creek-like ecosystem under glass. I had a collection of newts
and toads that thrived (the toads actually spawned) and I was
always trying to introduce new critters to see how natural an
artificial environment I could create.
Anyhow, one week while I was buying amphibian food at the pet
store, they had a crayfish for sale for $1.50, so I figured I'd
see how he would fit in my little zoo. I had no idea what to feed
the thing and neither did the store. The crawdad was about an
inch and a half long when I bought him. Well I had him for a few
months and he seemed to thrive, apparently scavenging on the bottom
of the water portion of the tank, and had grown to about twice
his original size. Whenever I would try to clean the tank, he
was impossible to retrieve (those puppies are fast and mean when
you try to catch them) so I would just work around him.
One day, I noticed that he seemed to have some sort of dark growth
on his underside and I figured, oh well, he's done for, there's
nothing I can do. Then about a week later, I looked in the tank,
and he was noticeably leaner, but there were about twenty tiny
replicas of him crawling all over the aquatic part of the tank.
Cool! He was a she. Nature had had its way once more. The babies
grew incredibly fast. They started out not much larger than brine
shrimp, but seemed to double in size every week until they were
each about a half an inch long. I was starting to worry what I
was going to do with them since the tank was eventually going
to get a bit crowded. Still, there was a nice peaceful little
world thriving under glass. That's when the mayhem ensued.
One day, I went down to the basement to feed the toads when I
noticed one of them was missing. I looked all over the aquarium
and then I noticed what appeared to be the tattered remains of
what was once a fair sized firebelly toad. They don't live that
long so I figured it was just a case of natural attrition and
decay. A few days later, I noticed another toad missing. Okay,
maybe they were all sick and were going to die of the same illness.
Then, a few days after that, I was walking by the tank, when I
heard a fairly loud splash. I looked in to see the claw of the
large momma crayfish firmly locked on the legs of one the remaining
toads in the tank as the poor toad struggled to escape.
At this point, I decided to clean the tank and separate the predator(s)
from the prey. I was able to remove the remaining amphibians,
but the crayfish were just too fast and too many for me to catch,
so I placed the entire tank out in the back yard while I prepared
a separate tank for the newts and toads. When I went out to the
yard to retrieve the crayfish tank a few hours later, the big
crawdad was gone without a trace and only a few of the babies
were left in the tank. I have no idea where they all went (it's
possible that a neighborhood cat fished them out), but every once
in a while I get this creepy feeling when I'm out in the back
yard that I'm being watched and there's come bitter crustacean
out there somewhere plotting my demise.
Even before this incident, I never liked seafood (and shellfish
in particular). Now it's personal!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> That's it! I'm moving to the world without
shrimp! -- d'Herblay, 12:29:07 08/10/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Yikes!! Okay, NOW I'm scared... 8o0 --
Wisewoman, 12:40:54 08/10/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Liquidram,
01:58:18 08/10/01 Fri
No scene from BtVS or AtS has actually ever scared me. "Hush"
was probably the freakiest.
Real life: What frightens me more than anything is the mere thought
of anything happening to one of my kids.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Again, someone's before me!! -- Marie, 03:46:47 08/10/01
Fri
No scene from BtVS or AtS has actually ever scared me. "Hush"
was probably the freakiest.
Have to agree - 'Hush', and also the Bugman - Kookookatchoo! -
from What's My Line I & II.
Real life: What frightens me more than anything is the mere thought
of anything happening to one of my kids.
Again, yup! We thought my 4-year old might have meningitis a few
weeks ago - don't want to go through that again, thank you! (Also,
maggots, see above!) (Oh, and being buried alive, or walled up
- thanks, Edgar Allan Poe!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> I wrote him into Dark Alchemy but we had to
bump the scene :( -- Liquidram, 04:02:39 08/10/01 Fri
The scene worked at one point, but not after new elements were
added.... he still may have a cameo appearance :) Is his name
spelled with a "y", "ey" or "ie"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> I was just thinking about this the other
day... -- Talking Drum, 10:50:48 08/10/01 Fri
...I've been out of the loop for a few weeks, so I must have missed
the scene. I just returned to active duty in the writer's circle
a couple days ago. If you could, please e-mail what was cut to
me. If it still doesn't fit, I have another idea as to how to
work a cameo into the Simon arc.
TD
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: I wrote him into Dark Alchemy but
we had to bump the scene :( -- Marie, 07:15:34 08/11/01 Sat
Is his name spelled with a "y", "ey" or "ie"?
If you mean my boy, it's Davie, but if you mean the Bug Man, I
can't remember!
If you DO mean Davie, you guys are so kind! I saw the scene, which
Sol sent me to read over, and it was so cool to think of him in
there, talking to Spike!! I printed it off, so I'll always have
it - whether he ends up on the cutting room floor or not!
Thanks, again,
M
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Lurker
Becoming Restless, 02:57:37 08/10/01 Fri
BtVS: the invisible, hospital-inhabiting, child-killing monster
in 'Killed By Death' is one of the scariest things I've EVER seen.
Real life: also water - strangeness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? --
Helen, 04:04:43 08/10/01 Fri
The scariest thing on Buffy was definitely Hush. I have to fast
forward past that episode if I'm watching my box sets alone in
the house, or if its dark. It wasn't so much the Gentlemen, or
their Gimp like sidekicks, but the fct that no one could speak.
SCariest thing that has ever happened to me in real life? Going
on a ghost tour in Edinburgh at night - it was terrifying. We
ended up in the Covenanters Prison in Grey Friars Kirk Yard. It
has a very well documented and I'm completely convinced real poltergeist.
It was not nice at all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? --
spotjon, 07:24:30 08/10/01 Fri
Oh wow, I had totally forgotten about that episode. I'm not sure
if I ever even saw the entire thing, but it did creep me out,
too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Shaglio,
07:08:40 08/10/01 Fri
Buffy Scare: "Hush." Without a doubt, THE scariest episode
ever. But more specifically, when Giles' lady friend (Olivia?)
is looking out the window and then one of the Gentlemen suddenly
floats by. It scared the bezeezus outta me.
Real life scares: Now that I think about it, when I'm home alone
at night, I never look out the windows if I can help it for fear
that, when I lift the shade, someone's face will be there. I try
my best not to even go near the windows at all. That, and the
dreaded fear of growing old alone. I know it's a little personal,
but the way the dating scene is going for me right now, I fear
I'll never achieve my only goal in life: to get married and raise
a family.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? --
Solitude1056, 08:02:05 08/10/01 Fri
Buffy Scare: "Hush." Without a doubt, THE scariest episode
ever. But more specifically, when Giles' lady friend (Olivia?)
is looking out the window and then one of the Gentlemen suddenly
floats by. It scared the bezeezus outta me.
Real life scares: Now that I think about it, when I'm home alone
at night, I never look out the windows if I can help it for fear
that, when I lift the shade, someone's face will be there. I try
my best not to even go near the windows at all.
Same here, on both counts. Then again, I grew up with a cat who
liked to sit on window sills - outside the window - and look in.
When you're seven and there's a pair of glowing green eyes looking
in through your window, it's bound to traumatize you for life!
That scene in Hush is one of the few times I've ever jumped up
from my seat - I think Sixth Sense is the only other movie/show
I can name that got the same reaction.
That, and bridges. They've always made me white-knuckled, though
I've worked on it and now I can sometimes change the radio, which
means only ONE HAND is on the wheel. Progress. Except on the Tobin
Bridge in Boston and the Throggs Neck in Long Island or the Newport
Bridge in Rhode Island. Three very long, very steep, very HIGH
span bridges. Yikes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats?
-- Shaglio, 10:16:51 08/10/01 Fri
For someone who has lived in the Boston area all his life, I fing
it odd that I've never actually been on the Tobin Bridge. But
if you want a real heart-thumping scare, there is a bridge on
Rte. 95 in Maine (in the Portsmouth area) that is extremely high
off the water. You'll be white-knuckled and pale as a ghost crossing
that sucker.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Gee. Thanks. Just what I needed! ;-O --
Solitude1056, 11:20:40 08/10/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? --
Shaglio, 10:30:00 08/10/01 Fri
Another scary Buffy moment I just thought of was in "Listen
To Fear" when they show Joyce on the bed rambling on and
on in an insane fashion. Then they show a different angle and
we see that she actually talking to the Queller Demon that is
on the ceiling above her bed. That was scary as all hell!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? --
Deeva, 11:12:56 08/10/01 Fri
"Buffy Scare: "Hush." Without a doubt, THE scariest
episode ever. But more specifically, when Giles' lady friend (Olivia?)
is looking out the window and then one of the Gentlemen suddenly
floats by. It scared the bezeezus outta me."
Ditto! When the Gentlemen popped into the window I completely
jumped and squeaked! And the fact that absolutely no one could
speak really creeped me out. I can't imagine not being able to
talk. My teachers in school were always telling my parents that
I talked too much.
My personal big fear is deep water. Anything that you can see
the bottom of. I can get on a boat and everything but don't ask
me to swim in it. I blame JAWS. Never was afraid of deep water
till then. Ugh! Just got the chills thinking about it!
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[> [> Face-at-the-Window creepfest "Carnival of Souls"
-- Vonnie, 21:00:23 08/10/01 Fri
You probably don't want to know this, but there is this really
GREAT old horror movie called "Carnival of Souls" that
prominently features a creepy guy with a ghostly white face floating
around the window. Low budget, minimal special effects, but extremely
eerie and disturbing. Suffice it to say that I've never looked
at church organs or carnivals the same way since. It's available
on DVD, remastered by the fabulous Criterion folks. Highly recommended!
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[> [> [> I second that vote - this is a classic flick!
-- OnM, 06:23:04 08/12/01 Sun
It's really hard to describe just what makes this so creepy, but
it is. Just shows that you don't need a big budget or name-brand
actors to make a great movie.
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[> [> [> [> I, uh, third it! -- Andy, 15:06:33 08/12/01
Sun
I think what makes it work is the wonderful photography combined
with the feeling of relentless pursuit that the story creates.
I love that image of...uh, well, I don't want to spoil anything,
but everything to do with that scene in the car. Very creepy :)
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[> Scary thoughts... -- OnM, 08:21:30 08/10/01 Fri
On Buffy, the scariest moment for me was actually similar to yours,
although it involved Cordelia and not Spike.
It was the episode where Cordy goes to rescue Xander and Willow
and finds them making out (they were sure that Spike was going
to kill them, and fear tended to do the rest). Seconds later,
she falls through the stairs and gets speared by a piece of rebar.
Xander is begging her to hold on, that help is coming, but she
passes out, or dies, it's left unclear.
Then, we immediately cut to the scene of a funeral, and it takes
several more seconds before we find it isn't Cordy's. I was certain
that they had just killed her character off just when I was really,
truly starting to like her.
In real life? Finally getting to retirement age (about 15-17 years
yet!), and then promptly croaking. Mega-bummer!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Andy,
08:49:02 08/10/01 Fri
Let's see...on Buffy and Angel, I thought the Kindestot, in Killed
by Death, was very creepy in that old Grimm fairy tale kind of
way. Just a classic boogeyman. Hush is full of good, scary stuff.
The scariest moment in that episode for me was when they started
cutting that guy's heart out and he's screaming but no noise is
coming out. And on Angel, I know a lot of people thought it was
stupid, but the one with the guy who could take his body apart
and then reform it was creepy as hell to me. Especially the bit
with him using his eye as a surveillance camera. Just skin-crawling
:)
In real life, I'm right there with you about the deep, dark water.
In addition to that, not only the water but the idea of things
being in the water. Big things. I always shudder when I read reports
of scuba divers being swallowed whole by groupers. I'm also quite
afraid of heights. I despise airplanes :) What else...oh yeah,
when I was a kid I used to get nightmares about being torn apart
by razors and fishing hooks. There was a scene in Hellraiser similar
to that and I actually blacked out when I saw that. According
to my sister and everyone else in the room at the time, I started
clutching my drink in front of my face and grunting like a caveman.
*That* freaked everyone else out :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Cactus
Watcher, 09:00:44 08/10/01 Fri
Definitely, from Fool for Love, when Spike told Buffy that all
Slayers have a death wish. You knew he wasn't fooling around.
Buffy's reaction was not one of defiance, but sadness, understanding,
and weariness. (It was only after Spike was about to kiss her
that she recovered enough to thoroughly insult him.) As I've said
I don't read spoilers, but after that moment, I was 90 percent
sure Buffy was going to die at the end of last season.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- voyageofbeagle,
09:07:38 08/10/01 Fri
On BtVS- have to agree with the choice of the Gentlemen in "Hush"-
the scene someone above already described when Olivia looks out
the window and one floats right by. Yikes! I think it's the only
time I've actually yelped out loud while watching BtVS.
In real life it's needles. *Shudder*. The only time in my life
I have ever had to have an IV they had to administer laughing
gas until I was almost out of it and have an orderly hold me down.
Not pleasant. I have to look away at anything on TV or in movies
that has to do with needles, and get queasy if anyone talks about
shots or giving blood. Wow, I sound neurotic!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Warning-- needle-phobics beware! -- OnM, 07:06:23
08/12/01 Sun
Your mention about being needle phobic (gee, if you're reading
this, you're brave!) brings back one of the scariest moments I
ever had in movie-land.
I saw *The Exorcist* shortly after it was released, and it was
all over the press and the word-of-mouth just how frightening
this film was supposed to be. When I saw it, I thought it was
more silly and overblown than anything else, although I felt truly
sorry for the young actress in having to put up with all this
perverse stuff.
But the one scene that did freak me out was when they were running
tests on her in the hospital (thinking of non-supernatural causes,
of course) and they did the brain scan or whatever it was, and
stuck that big needle into her neck, and the blood comes squirting
out with her pulse, and the expression on her face seemed to suggest
that it was just so painful, and all the while they're telling
her to keep still and not move even slightly.
What was scary to me was that it looked completely real, just
like it was a real medical procedure. Ewww... I'm not generally
needle-phobic, but that was just so unpleasant looking, I actually
got semi-nauseaous in the theater and had to close my eyes!
Phobias aren't things that can be rationally analyzed. It's just
like needles. On the one hand you have people who virtually pass
out at just the sight of them, and on the other extreme you have
people who are into body piercings or even erotic needle play.
Go figure! The range of human sensitivities/fears/desires never
fails to astonish me.
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[> [> [> Re: Warning-- needle-phobics beware! -- Rufus,
15:45:51 08/12/01 Sun
Needles, I'm petrified of IV needles, not the stick in the arm
or butt type. I have lots of medical friends and we once sat up
talking about the ways you could kill yourself in the most efficient
way. That is when they told me about air bubbles and needles.....I
don't like them, now I'm phobic about them. I have to use the
pen to test my blood but that is just the finger tip and that
doesn't frighten me, but come near me with a IV set up and I'm
out of there. And no, I'm not going to tell you the other ways
to kill yourself as it's hard to type it all out but you'd be
amazed how easy it is to even accidentilly kill yourself as well
as the intentional ways. Put it this way now I'm very careful
around the cutlery tray in the dishwasher.
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[> [> [> that scene just sounds stupid -- anom, 21:56:37
08/12/01 Sun
...at least, if it was supposed to be real & not a kid's nightmare
about what medical procedures are like. (I read the book but didn't
see the movie, so I don't know.)
"But the one scene [in The Exorcist] that did freak me out
was when they were running tests on her in the hospital (thinking
of non-supernatural causes, of course) and they did the brain
scan or whatever it was, and stuck that big needle into her neck,
and the blood comes squirting out with her pulse, and the expression
on her face seemed to suggest that it was just so painful, and
all the while they're telling her to keep still and not move even
slightly.
What was scary to me was that it looked completely real, just
like it was a real medical procedure."
Well, they can make it look real, but it's still stupid. 1st,
blood "squirting out with her pulse" would only happen
if they hit an artery, & there's no type of injection that's supposed
to go into an artery (that's why it's called intravenous). The
arteries in the neck are the main ones supplying the brain, & if
one bleeds it's life-threatening, & the medical personnel would
be running around screaming themselves trying to stop it. 2nd,
if they inject dye into a vein it'll spread throughout the person's
body, so there's no need to inject it near the part they're going
to scan, & besides (3rd?) the vein will take it away from the
part in question (although it'll get back there before long).
Pardon the rant, but stupid stuff like this just bothers me. Like
the scene in--well, maybe I'd better leave it unnamed to avoid
spoilery for folks who haven't seen it, but it's a relatively
recent movie based on a well-known monster story--where the monster
plunges his hand into a woman's chest & pulls her heart out. As
if there weren't a ribcage & sternum in the way that would have
to be broken away! As if it weren't attached to several major
blood vessels that would come trailing out behind it! (Everyone
enjoying the mind pictures? @>) ) Nope--in this scene it looks
like the heart is an isolated, closed-off organ just sitting there
behind what must be rather clay-like flesh. I have no problem
suspending my disbelief about monsters & stuff, but this kind
of thing can spoil a whole movie for me. To me, the reality part
needs to be as real as possible so the supernatural part really
seems supernatural; otherwise it's just a cartoon (nothing against
cartoons...).
At least the Gentlemen had scalpels.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Tanker,
09:13:23 08/10/01 Fri
The scene in "Hush" when one of the Gentlemen goes by
the window is probably the only time I've really jumped when watching
Buffy or Angel. Now, if you want to talk freak-out moment, the
scene at the end of "The Trial," where Dru appears --
eek!
I've always said that one of the scariest Buffy moments is in
BB&B, when Xander is telling Buffy why he can't take advantage
of her, and she says "Are you saying this is all a game?"
Raises the hair on my neck every time. I don't know about y'all,
but an angry Slayer is about the scariest thing I can think of
on either show.
Real life -- I have dummy fear. "Puppet Show" gave me
the wig.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Wisewoman,
10:00:58 08/10/01 Fri
I don't think anything on Buffy, or any TV show has really scared
me. Quite a change from my youth. I remember going to see The
Blob (Steve McQueen version) when I was about ten years old with
a group of other kids, and hiding on the floor under my seat whimpering
until the usher came and told me to leave! And the final scene
in Carrie made me scream out loud! After I'd done theatre and
some film, I found I just got fascinated by the scary stuff and
the gory stuff, wondering how they did that, and how I could reproduce
it. Kinda tends to keep you distanced from the fear factor...
Extreme tension in a movie or TV show can still do it...nothing
happening when you know something is gonna happen.
In real life I'm claustrophic, so crowded elevators and enclosed
spaces where I can't readily see an exit route wig me out. I read
about the way witches used to be killed by "pressing,"
laying them flat on the ground, placing a board over their torso,
and then piling heavy rocks on the board until the person suffocated
from the weight. That's about how I feel when I'm claustrophic.
Hmmm, could be a past-life, Wiccan memory kinda thing?
An O/T note, I've always thought that one of Stephen King's greatest
talents was in making our normal, ordinary fears the stuff of
his novels. Quite often the things that are really horrifying
in his stories are not the supernatural stuff, but the real horrors:
the death of a child, arthritis, human cruelty, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> the Blob -- spotjon, 11:11:49 08/10/01 Fri
Oh man, don't get me started on The Blob. When I was younger I
watched the remake (the one from the '80s, I think), and was simply
terrified all the way through. The worst part was when a boy and
an older girl were running through a sewer system to get away
from the blob. He gets pulled under the layer of mist/fog/sewer
smog and then jumps up engulfed by the slime of the blob, and
you know he's about to be digested. I had nightmares about that
one.
The TV movie "IT" freaked me out, too. I really hate
clowns after watching that.
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[> [> I'm a little like you -- Cactus Watcher, 13:25:52
08/10/01 Fri
The bogey-man stuff doesn't phase me much because I know the drill.
- Oh, here's Olivia up in the middle of the night all by herself.
I wonder how long it will take for a "gentleman" to
pop up and scare her. Oh... not long. - Like Xanthe's comment
below and yours about your claustrophobia, I think psychological
terror is much worse than the monster of the week. I enjoy Buffy
beating the stuffing out of monsters. But, if I'm disturbed by
a Buffy episode, it's because they've touched on something a lot
deeper than the visual equivalent of shouting, "Boo!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The kid from IGYUMS on ATS -- Rufus, 15:54:29 08/10/01
Fri
It's the real monsters that scare me. When a demon is willing
to die to get rid of someone who scares it, then you know there
is something wrong. I don't think that the demon meant that that
kid had no soul as much as he meant that the boy was empty of
feelings of anything such as remourse, love, empathy. This demon
who had lived to corrupt found something more naturally evil than
himself.
As for my other fears, heights is one of them, I won't go in a
plane for any reason...period. And the mention of the Gentlemen
in "Hush" makes me think that these guys were spooky
with the moving through air bit but what got me squirming was
when they pinned that young man to his bed(where he should be
safe) and prepared to make the first cut to take out his heart.
You can see that he was screaming with no one able to hear him.
That was the scary part.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- vampire
hunter D, 11:00:26 08/10/01 Fri
Actually, nothing on Buffy has ever scared me. It's not a very
scary show. In fact, I don't even look at it as a horror show,
but more as a action/comedy.
In real life, nothing scares me much. In fact, only one thing
in real life or the movies has ever really scared me. That was
the first episode of Steven King's The Stand. Just the thought
of a plague like that, and the realization that that wassn't to
fantastic to not happen scares me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: your Stephen King anecdote. -- Anthony8, 11:20:43 08/10/01
Fri
I'll have to think a bit more about the scariest BtVS or AtS moment.
Your Stephen King anecdote brought to mind a story my first college
roommate told me.
He was out camping with some friends and moved a distance from
the campfire to go relieve himself. He was walking out into the
pitch black when he felt like something was watching him and he
could hear something moving very close to him in the dark. He
reached down to steady his balance and felt something roundish,
wet, clammy and breathing. Well, he obviously jumped about fifteen
feet back towards the campfire (he also had a graphic description
as to how a certain appendage shriveled up and crawled into his
body) only to see the dog they had brought along with them on
the trip emerge from the dark all happy and waggy tailed. The
first thing I thought when he told the story was that it was a
bear, which would have been comically terrifying in and of itself.
Instead it ended up being a real life version of one of those
false alarm movie cliches. Still funny though, I think.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> What scared me the most in Buffy or Ats? -- xanthe, 12:44:47
08/10/01 Fri
I was surprised that no one mentioned this yet, but the moment
that frightened me the most on BTVS was a completely non-supernatural
horror. It was in Reptile Boy when the sleazy frat boy finds Buffy
in one of the bedrooms. He walks in and we realize that she has
passed out and is lying there completely helpless. There was something
completely predatory and uncontrollable about that. I can remember
being so impressed that the show was about a giant snake that
demanded the sacrifice of nubile young women, yet I was the most
afraid for Buffy (and Cordelia) at that moment when I realized
that she was completely defenseless and in the company of an ordinary,
rotten young man. I guess that moment does really qualify as horror,
but it certainly made me worry about the characters more than
many of the other situations that I've seen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What scared me the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Nina,
14:13:29 08/10/01 Fri
On the top of my head I can't say that anything spooked me out
of my chair in BtVS. Three moments do still give me the chills
though. Everytime the music plays a huge part in the scaring factor.
1- In Hush. The music creeps me. Seeing those gentlemen slidding
in the air, smiling. The children song at the beginning does the
same for me.
2- In Fool for Love. When Spike gets up in the NY subway car.
The music again creeps me. It's so angelic and soft, in complete
contrast with the moment. The speech that follows also sends chills
down my back when he looks Buffy in the eyes (The second that
happens you know I'll be there...) Spike doesn't scare me as a
big bad, but in that scene he's just creepy.
3- in Crush. Again it's all in the music when Spike tells his
big bad tale to Dawn. The whole atmosphere reminds me of a time
when I used to play that game with my friends (the scariest story
ever told)
On AtS.... the scariest thing? Angel's hair. (just kidding!)
So nothing to die from a heart attack! In real life I can be scared
by a lot of things. They don't include spiders though! (I love
them) I tend to freak when I am in a crowd and at night I still
can't put my feet out of my bed. I had a nightmare when I was
little that rats had eaten my brother's feet like that and since
I try to get rid of that fear but with no success! (weird as I
love rats and mice too!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- verdantheart,
14:24:39 08/10/01 Fri
Interesting topic!
Nothing on BtVS or AtS has gotten to me, and horror stories generally
don't scare me -- 'though I still love 'em. I'm a big Stephen
King fan because of his abilities as a storyteller. Can't wait
for the Straub collaboration coming up next month!
In real life? Not afraid of any animals, although I have a healthy
respect for dangerous ones. I had to handle a 3-foot snake for
my husband this summer (since he has a phobia). I have acrophobia,
and some claustrophobia (if I have to sit for a long time waiting
in the back of an airplane to get off, I start to get really hinky).
It's a good thing I'm not afraid of needles, I have to have blood
taken all the time!
Probably the creepiest novel I've read is The Haunting of Hill
House by Shirley Jackson (the recent movie was dreadful). The
X-Files has had some wonderfully creepy episodes ("I just
knew"), and I'm really glad that they're trying to go with
creepy again (I know a lot of people were unhappy Mulder left,
but it was a big relief to me. I was getting tired of attempts
at humor and strained quirkiness.).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The first X-Files I ever saw, 'Home,' was so creepy
from start to finish... -- Anthony8, 17:50:13 08/10/01 Fri
...that I was very disappointed when none of the subsequent episodes
lived up to the same level of horror and ghoulishness. The Peacock
boys clubbing the terrified sheriff and his family to death while
Johnny Mathis played on their convertible's radio...very creepy.
Aborted babies buried in baseball fields, inbreeding, booby traps...they
pulled out all the stops. I think the episode was considered so
extreme that they only reran it once some three or four years
after it initially aired.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> That's a heck of an intro to The X-Files --
Tanker, 18:17:29 08/10/01 Fri
Yeah, that one really freaked the FOX suits out. Freaked me out
too, but in a fun way. I've heard that it's never been seen again,
even in syndication, but I don't know for sure.
I'm not sure that level of creepiness could be sustained for any
length of time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: That's a heck of an intro to The X-Files
-- Wisewoman, 19:10:06 08/10/01 Fri
If that was the first X-Files I'd seen, I don't think I would
ever have gone back! I was totally unprepared for that when it
first aired, and I'd watched every episode up to that point. There
was something so sick about that woman under the bed.....eeeeeewwwwwww!
They showed it once more in syndication here in Canada, but they
made a big deal about how it had only ever aired once before,
so it was pretty rare.
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[> [> [> [> [> A perfect Halloween viewable, next
to Night of the Living Dead. -- Anthony8, 20:54:29 08/10/01 Fri
I wanted to get the DVD, but they only sell X-Files DVDs in Season
Box Sets, so I ended up buying the VHS tape for $6 (a good deal
and an indication that they're bargain basementing VHS backstock
so that they can phase out pre-recorded videotapes altogether
in favor of DVD, IMO).
I don't think I saw another X-Files with the same creep factor.
Level of grossness, maybe, but that uncomfortable skin crawly
feeling that makes you scared to look in your closet after midnight,
no.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: That's a heck of an intro to The X-Files
-- Deeva, 21:28:50 08/10/01 Fri
"Home" is one of my all time favorites because it's
so creepy & well done. Another one that made my skin crawl was
the one with the guy who could get through any size opening air
vents, barred widows and what not, but he had to eat several human
livers and (I think) hibernate for 7 years. He got through an
air vent for a bathroom to get to someone who was in the shower.
I had the same kind of vent in my bathroom. When ever I took a
shower I could never close my eyes because of that episode. It
was very oooky! (say it like spooky)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- dan, 15:08:53
08/10/01 Fri
Besides the Gentlemen in Hush and the bug man (koo koo ka choo!)
from What's My Line, the scariest thing on Buffy I can ever think
of was...
the costumes from season one. *cymbal crash* ;->
scariest things in real life:
1) the fear of something happening to my kids (when I have them,
that is!) or children I'm taking care of. I once had a toddler
fall down the stairs right in front of me when I was babysitting
her and I still have nightmares about it years later. (she was
fine, by the way. little children are surprisingly pliable.)
2) the fact that so many people in this country view me as hellspawn
because I'm gay. I just never know when I'll run across the diatribe
of some 'phobe in the media attacking my very existence. it's
a wee bit upsetting.
-d
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[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- thisbe,
18:34:08 08/10/01 Fri
I've gotten quite a few good jumps out of various Buffy's, but
the creepiest and saddest was when Joyce died. I thought is was
so moving, so well-handled, and so upsetting. Buffy's attempts
at reviving her, talking to herself, smoothing down Joyce's skirt,
all seemed too real. I enjoy Buffy for the great monsters, big
issues, and the snappy dialogue, but that episode really got to
me.
In this reality, the scariest short story I ever read was "Pigeons
from Hell" by Robert E. Howard, the scariest movie I ever
watched was "Hill House" (the old 60's one) and my major
phobia is high bridges. I'm convinced that a tire will blow out
or another car will bump me and send me over the rail. Now, I've
got Michellans and all the other drivers hold their lane, but
my heart drums in my ears every time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? --
John Burwood, 01:37:20 08/11/01 Sat
I find the scariest parts of Buffy are not the monsters but the
reality horrors of public humiliations & shame. My most scary
episode was Bad Girls, because of Buffy cutting out of class and
getting arrested with Faith breakinginto the shop - with the next
episode entitled Consequences I had horrible ideas of what might
happen as aresult, but nothing did.I guess I do not fear seeing
Buffy die, but do find the pain of humiliation - such as in The
Puppet Show, DMP, the Freshman, Checkpoint - terrifying. Truth
is this is nothing more than displacement on my part. My own biggest
real fear is of being mocked & humiliated - which is odd, as Xander
said about rejection, considering all the practice I got, especially
at school - you would think I would hav learned to laugh it off.
But seriously, the magic of Buffy was never betterpersonified
for me than by S1 episode Nightmares - it portrayed real terrors
of reallife better than any other programmme I have ever watched.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Sam Gamgee,
10:16:45 08/11/01 Sat
I think probably the closest to scaring me was the Gentlemen in
Hush. Like somebody else mentioned, it was mostly their quietness
that scared me.
Unfortunately (or so I feel) I do not get scared by movies or
books the way I did when I was younger. Now I am stuck with the
boring old adult fears. I can remember when I was 8 years old,
I read the stories "The Boogeyman" and "The Mangler"
by Stephen King, and I stayed up at night afraid the closet door
would open and I stayed away from the washer and dryer (after
all, they could have been related to the Mangler).
Now, of course, I have new fears, but they are quite a large list:
the first five minutes of a plane taking off; driving on the highway
at night and having a car following me for a long amount of time;
mgetting a phone call when my daughter is out of the house (what
happened. I think); that sudden goofy thought right before I get
out of the car to go to work (did I remember to put my pants on?);
public speaking (always a fear--I can talk one-on-one til the
cows go to the mall, but give me a group environment, and I am
like Willow doing a Greek play); and assorted others I am just
too scared to mention.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scaried you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- Lurker
Becoming Restless, 12:19:20 08/11/01 Sat
I've already answered this but I remembered a weird thing that
has created a completely new fear in me.
It comes from a moment in Unbreakable when some people are walking
along the street at night. Somebody suddenly drives up behind
them and smashes one of them over the head with a bottle. Now
I look over my shoulder a lot more than I used to - I don't know
why but that really freaked me out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What scared you the most in Buffy or Ats? -- anom, 22:48:48
08/11/01 Sat
OK, here goes (deep breath). Scariest on Buffy/Angel: Hush. The
classic nightmare about not being able to call for help, or even
cry out in pain. Why is this scarier than being gagged or having
someone's hand held over your mouth (which are bad enough)? Well,
those are physical things; they can be understood, things you
might be able to fight. And at least your voice still works--someone
might hear you even through the gag or the hand. If your voice
has been taken away & you can't understand it & there's nothing
you can do about it...that's really scary. (Although it seems
to me people would've gotten whistles so they could blow SOS....)
Scariest in real life: sharks. There was a movie not long before
Jaws, a documentary called Blue Water, White Death, about great
white sharks. I was thinking about seeing it. Then I saw clips
being shown on The Dick Cavett Show (really dating myself here),
just a couple of minutes' worth, shark attacking diver in anti-shark
cage. Mouth wide open, you could see way down its throat. I thought,
my entire leg could fit in there--& be gone. I had nightmares
for days--er, nights. Never did see the movie (although I did
finally see Jaws a few years ago on TV; either I'm slightly over
it or the shark looked fake enough not to bother me too much).
No problem w/the water itself, though.
Don't know if this counts: brief flash of a dream, just before
I woke up. On my back in total darkness, on what feels like a
smooth metal surface. Similar surface maybe a foot above me. Can't
feel anything else in any direction. No idea where I am or what
direction to try to go in.
OK, & a bonus, scariest fiction: Sorry, Wrong Number. A short
story I read in my teens in a Hitchcock collection. A disabled
woman (wheelchair user) picks up the phone & through a crossed
wire hears her husband plotting to kill her, telling someone on
the other end exactly how to do it...that night. I won't spoil
it for those who haven't read it, but when I finished it I had
to sit & tell myself all the reasons it couldn't happen to me....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Wasn't this made into a film? -- Marie, 02:29:59 08/13/01
Mon
OK, & a bonus, scariest fiction: Sorry, Wrong Number. A short
story I read in my teens in a Hitchcock collection. A disabled
woman (wheelchair user) picks up the phone & through a crossed
wire hears her husband plotting to kill her, telling someone on
the
other end exactly how to do it...that night. I won't spoil it
for those who haven't read it, but when I finished it I had to
sit & tell
myself all the reasons it couldn't happen to me....
Don't know why, but now I have Barbara Stanwyck in my head! Or
it could've been Joan Crawford, maybe... I'm sure one of you will
tell me - OnM?!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> yes it was - Barbara Stanwyck starred. it's
not bad! -- dan, 05:47:32 08/13/01 Mon
Idiotic question regarding "The Harvest" -- d'Herblay,
01:10:48 08/10/01 Fri
Indulging my nostalgia for the "big bangs, short skirts"
era of Buffy, I rented "Welcome to the Hellmouth"/"The
Harvest." There is a scene therein where Buffy pulls a steamer
trunk from her closet, opens it and then reveals a secret compartment.
In said compartment there are an assortment of stakes, some crosses,
cloves of garlic, vials of holy water, and, to the left, a large
mason jar full of what seem to be little white discs. As near
as I can tell, these discs are communion wafers.
Now I would imagine that serving a vampire holy communion would
harm him, as communion wafers are consecrated just as holy water
is; I just can't imagine how you would get a vampire to take holy
communion. Ok, Spike, maybe. He eats normal food. Slip a few into
a corned beef sandwich and he's dust. But other than that, communion
seems an odd way to kill a vampire (as opposed to all the other,
obvious ways).
Of course, the wafer is just half of communion. I think back to
Bela Lugosi saying, "I do not durrink . . . vine," and
I wonder. I've seen Spike drink beer and bourbon, but I don't
recall a vampire ever drinking wine. (Those of you with instant
recall of all 144 episodes should feel free to correct me.) I
would think wine would be particularly dangerous for a vampire
to drink. Find a vamp three sheets to the wind on Thunderbird;
get a priest to consecrate the wine; wait for transubstantion
and the vamp has The Blood of Christ running through his veins.
I think that would be an ouch.
Or were those Stridex pads in the jar? I couldn't really tell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Someone remind me........... -- Rufus, 01:49:53 08/10/01
Fri
We had a discussion about blessing the water content in the vampire's
body....instant soup mix!!!!!! Now who said it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Idiotic question regarding "The Harvest" -- a
possible answer -- Earl Allison, 02:11:26 08/10/01 Fri
One of the ways one can allegedly kill a vampire (not as yet mentioned
or proven in the Buffyverse) is to stake it, behead it and fill
the mouth with holy wafers.
Of course, that also means that the vampire doesn't turn to dust
once staked (or beheaded). Said vampire would stay "dead"
provided no one removed the stake or wafers -- again, a serious
departure from Buffy vampire lore.
Hope that helped.
"Big bangs, short skirts," I love it :)
As for wine, I don't know as a priest can consecrate wine that
has already been consumed. Then again, given that a vampire's
heart doesn't beat -- I have to wonder why they get drunk, or
can be tranquilized ... but it's a small nit from an otherwise
excellent series.
Dracula said what he did because all he drank was blood -- I can't
say with 100% certainty, but I don't think as a general rule that
"classic" vampires did eat -- that might be a Buffy
first as well -- any more knowledgeable vampire fans out there
know one way or the other?
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Idiotic question regarding "The Harvest" --
LadyStarlight, 07:46:37 08/10/01 Fri
Well, given that the wafers have been consecrated by a priest,
wouldn't they act much like Holy Water? Burning, etc? At least
it might be a distraction in a hand-to-hand fight.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Idiotic question regarding "The Harvest" --
vampire hunter D, 08:09:16 08/10/01 Fri
I think those things wee in the trunk to show the audience what
kills vampires (and to reinforce the point that Buffy is the Slayer),
As for wine, regular wine should be ok, it's theconsecration by
a priest that makes it lethal. Of course, consecrated wine isn't
supposed to leave the church (where it's kept in a taburnacle).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> maybe a Slayer could throw 'em fast enough... -- anom, 08:47:09
08/10/01 Fri
...to work like Ninja throwing stars! I'm picturing a vamp looking
down at 2-3 little white disks embedded edge-on in his/her body
just before going to dust.... Well, it solves the problem of "how
do you get 'em into the mouth"!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I'm gonna go with this theory...LOL! -- Wisewoman,
09:39:36 08/10/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Idiotic question regarding "The Harvest" --
purplegrrl, 08:53:28 08/10/01 Fri
Like all other writers in the vampire genre, Joss has taken the
vampire legend and added or subtracted a few things to make it
fit his "reality." A lot of what is taken as the "traditional
vampire" came from Bram Stoker's Dracula - but when he combined
Slavic folklore vampires and a historical bloodthirsty Carpathean
ruler, he also made up parts - like not being able to see vampires
in a mirror.
Joss' vampires *can* eat or drink human food - Spike, and sometimes
Angel, being the prime example. Angel drank champaigne, a type
of wine in AtS season 1. However, most of Buffyverse vampires
would much rather drink human blood. And like someone else said,
I don't think you can consecrate wine that has already been drunk.
The idea is to consecrate the wine first so that it purifies the
person when they drink it.
"Traditionally," communion wafers were not used on the
vampires directly. They were placed in the vampire's coffin to
keep it from returning to its resting place. Dr. Van Helsing does
this to several of Dracula's coffins. This device has been used
in other stories as well. It's possible that communion wafers
were shown early in BtVS with Joss thinking he would have Buffy
use them to kill vampires, but they never worked out a practical/believable
way of doing it.
Hope this helps.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Angel -- little wiggins, 23:04:08 08/10/01 Fri
In eternity Angel drinks wine...... with a little doximol on the
side.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Idiotic question regarding "The Harvest" --
Joann, 21:33:47 08/11/01 Sat
I think I have seen them used (in movies) to consecrate the soil
in a vampires resting place. But when I saw them in Buffy's trunk
I thought they were used in the same way as a cross to hold off
the vampire because the wafer represented the body of Christ like
the crucifix but is a much more powerful and holier symbol in
the Catholic faith.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Communion Elemenents (semi-OT) -- Rattletrap, 05:32:01 08/12/01
Sun
There was a fascinating article in the last issue of Slayage (www.slayage.tv,
Stacey Abbott, "A Little Less Ritual, and a Little More Fun")
that described the use of religious symbolism as it has changed
in vampire stories over the years. One of their points about Buffy
was that the religious symbolism that has been removed in some
of the Ann Rice stuff has resurfaced, but in a different form.
It appears to be the physical properties of the cross and the
holy water, rather than the spritual ones that affect vampires
in the Buffyverse. As Masq suggests in one of her ep. analyses,
it is almost like vampires are allergic to the shape of a cross,
less than to the religous or spiritual power contained within.
I'd be curious to hear some of our other posters' feedback on
this line of thought, it made sense to me.
'trap
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Communion Elemenents (semi-OT) -- mundusmundi,
13:27:46 08/12/01 Sun
One of their points about Buffy was that the religious symbolism
that has been removed in some of the Ann Rice stuff has resurfaced,
but in a different form. It appears to be the physical properties
of the cross and the holy water, rather than the spritual ones
that affect vampires in the Buffyverse. As Masq suggests in one
of her ep. analyses, it is almost like vampires are allergic to
the shape of a cross, less than to the religous or spiritual power
contained within.
This touches on what's always been a fascinating subject for me
-- the creative tension between the fantasy elements of the show
and the personal skepticism of its creator. Others may disagree
with this. I know Whedon has said that he's fascinated by Christian
symbolism. And, I've read many wonderful observations (by Dedalus
and others) of this symbolism on the show. I don't dispute any
of this. But I don't feel any real spirituality (in the religious
sense of the word) in the Buffyverse. I don't experience it the
way I experience Scorsese's Catholicism in his movies, or Paul
Schrader's Methodism in his. (Personally I'm agnostic, though
I attended Catholic schooling, have a Church of Christ mother,
and am a student of Islamic history, so one could say my religiosity
is a mile wide, if also an inch deep.) Whedon's also said that
he loves the supernatural because he doesn't believe in any of
it, and whether he intends it or not that unbelief seems to inform
-- even undermine -- his wildest flights of fancy. The climactic
scene in The Body, where a vampire rises while a "real"
person, Joyce, remains dead, is a prime illustration of this tension.
So too, IMHO, are the examples from that article you mentioned.
Great subject.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Communion Elemenents (semi-OT) -- Malandanza,
20:58:48 08/12/01 Sun
"This touches on what's always been a fascinating subject
for me -- the creative tension between the fantasy elements of
the show and the personal skepticism of its creator. Others may
disagree with this. I know Whedon has said that he's fascinated
by Christian symbolism. And, I've read many wonderful observations
(by Dedalus and others) of this symbolism on the show. I don't
dispute any of this. But I don't feel any real spirituality (in
the religious sense of the word) in the Buffyverse."
Once again, I find myself in complete agreement with you. "Real
spirituality" on BtVS is, I think, oddly lacking -- considering
that the main characters interact with evil, risk death and are
protected by Christian icons on a regular, if not daily, basis.
Furthermore, the WC must have had time to figure out the rules
governing crucifixes, Holy Water and consecrated ground (remember
them burying the Master's bones?) and provide wither a spiritual
or scientific explanation. Is the priests blessing for Holy Water
merely an ancient incantation that anyone can do? Wouldn't it
be convenient to have Willow make a few gallons? The handful of
references to Christianity that we've seen have been jokes --
like Spike's introduction to Sunnydale:
Vampire#1: Yes. This weekend, the night of St. Vigeous, our power
shall be at its peak. When I kill her, it'll be the greatest event
since the crucifixion. And I should know. I was there.
Spike: (appears behind them) *You* were *there*? (chuckles) Oh,
please! If every vampire who said he was at the crucifixion was
actually there, it would have been like Woodstock. (School Hard
-- Psyche's Transcripts)
Or Riley, in his Sunday best, late for church when Faith (in Buffy's
body) arrives. It seemed as though it was a cheap joke for the
big-city cynics (How quaint! The farmboy goes to church!) at the
expense of the rural religious people.
And there was Buffy with the nun, asking about how strict the
orders' rules were.
But I suspect that one of the contibuting factors to why we do
not see religion (except made-up ones) highlighted on the show
is the controversy that would ensue (imagine if he explained how
Holy Water works! - a Christian explanation might offend the non-Christian
- or even non-Catholic - viewers while a non-Christian explanation
might offend the Christians). In many ways, the controversy surrounding
Willow and Tara's relationship was minor (Joss was not the first
person to have lesbians portrayed positively on TV; I can think
of several shows: Friends, Ellen [of course], even Star Trek DS9)--
a religious war would not be. Think boycotts and cancellation
(religious groups tend to be well organized).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Religion in the Buffyverse -- d'Herblay,
01:24:55 08/13/01 Mon
I wanted to give this subject the thought it deserves, but were
I to actually give it such thought, the thread would be archived
long before I came to a hint of a conclusion. So what follows
may be a bit incohate.
When mundus posted his Dawn character analysis, I keyed into his
question "Is Dawn an atheist?" But as I considered it
I started to dismiss it with the thought, "As opposed to
all the characters who have a deep relationship with Christ? Or,
in Willow's case, Yahweh and/or Circe?" I've never felt a
deep sense of spirituality emanating from the show--which is one
of the reasons I watch it instead of Touched By an Angel. In fact,
for me, this lack of spirituality works in the show's favor. The
Scooby Gang is not the "Tribulation Force" of the Left
Behind novels. They lack a spiritual knowledge which would give
them guidance; they often do not know what they are fighting for,
or even why they fight, other than the conviction that an apocalypse
is something to be avoided. Therefore, they make mistakes, they
come into conflict with each other and themselves. Witness the
conflict between spiritually grounded Tara and untethered, materialist
Willow. If Willow had Tara's feeling for the limits of magic,
it wouldn't be so interesting watching her test the limits--we'd
know that she'd never exceed them.
Joss's unwillingness to show direct evidence of a higher force
for goodness in the Buffyverse, in my opinion, emphasizes that
the fight for good can be lonely, frustrating, and that such a
fight may have no other rewards than its completion. Personally,
this strikes me as more applicable to real lives, with their doubts
and their frustrations, than the pieties of "Christian Fiction."
(I should point out here that one of my local bookstores--luckily,
just one--has a considerably large section devoted to "Christian
Fiction," and that I have, in one of my lower moments, reshelved
several Bibles in this section.) Or the pieties of non-Christian
systems of faith, for that matter. (Touched By an Angel is more
new age than evangelical, but its overt spirituality still seems
platitudinous.)
(Oooh . . . I've picked on Touched By an Angel and Left Behind.
I'm big and tough now! Any other obvious straw men out there?
Bring 'em on!)
Joss has shown hints of a spiritual presence in the shows--the
snow in "Amends," Angel entering Kate's apartment. But
he's miserly doled these out. He's been coy with us so far . .
. but can Joss's coyness with religion survive Buffy's resurrection?
Can he handle Buffy's memories, or lack of memories, of an afterlife
with as much panache as he's skirted religious issues before?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Religion in the Buffyverse --
mundusmundi, 09:07:37 08/13/01 Mon
One show I was sorry to see leave the airwaves was Nothing Sacred,
on ABC a few years ago and despite the sensationalistic title
was a thoughtful and moving account of a young priest running
a parish in modern-day New York (or was it Chicago, I forget).
It showed that faith wasn't easy, that it involves a deep commitment,
and that sometimes the choices among the faithful are as difficult
as face those without "spiritual guidance" (not accusing
you of saying otherwise, just running with the idea for a lap
or two).
Back to the point...I think these notions of Christian symbolism
in the Jossverse, while valid and interesting, are due partly
to the cultural parameters within which we inhabit. If we lived
in an Islamic society, for instance, would we see Buffy replacing
Dawn's sacrifice as akin to the prophet Isu (Jesus) being rescued
and replaced on the cross, as is implied in the Qu'ran? (Bit of
a stretch, there, I know, but see my point?) I suspect that Buffy's
rebirth/resurrection/whatever will be handled ambiguously. No
answer can really satisfy, so celebrating the "mystery,"
so long as it's done with a minimum of coyness, may be the right
way to go.
Geez, all this from communion wafers?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Religion in the Buffyverse
-- Liam, 11:17:40 08/13/01 Mon
While I don't necessarily expect all the Scooby Gang or everyone
else who knows what's going on to be devout members of their particular
faith (if they belong to any), I would have expected _some_ people
in the Buffyverse to be fighting vampires for religious reasons.
(I'm exempting the Knights of Byzantium here, and thinking of
ordinary people.) If someone finds out that, yes, vampires and
all kinds of other evil creatures exist, perhaps he or she might
become a more devout member of their faith. The problem is that,
so far, we've seen nobody in 'Buffy' or 'Angel' behaving this
way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Religion in the
Buffyverse -- d'Herblay, 15:22:14 08/13/01 Mon
Liam writes: If someone finds out that, yes, vampires and all
kinds of other evil creatures exist, perhaps he or she might become
a more devout member of their faith.
Or, perhaps he or she would react by becoming less devout. When
you deal with the supernatural on a material basis, you lose the
mystery that sustains faith. One telling moment comes at the end
of "Checkpoint," when Quentin Travers says, "She's
a god." My immediate reaction was to say, "Aha! There's
more than one, then."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> TV that does religion well
-- d'Herblay, 22:56:35 08/13/01 Mon
Mundus writes about Nothing Sacred: "It showed that faith
wasn't easy, that it involves a deep commitment, and that sometimes
the choices among the faithful are as difficult as face those
without 'spiritual guidance' (not accusing you of saying otherwise,
just running with the idea for a lap or two)."
I may have meant to sound like I was saying otherwise. After all
my examples of "spiritual" entertainments were the indefensibly
treacly Touched By an Angel and the holier-and-better-armed-than-thou
Tribulation Force in Left Behind. Which were of course straw men.
I have nothing but respect for shows that present faith as a struggle,
that show moral choices as difficult even to the spiritual. I
never saw Nothing Sacred, so when I think about TV shows that
have portrayed faith in meaningful ways, I think of Homicide,
with its portrayal of Frank Pembleton's initial inability to reconcile
a benevolent God with what he saw on the job as a homicide detective
and his ultimate acceptance of the mystery of God's love. One
of the differences between the platitudinous spiritual fiction
(or non-fiction) and the meaningful is that the platitudinous
tends to have this assurance, this certainty, which I find lacking
in everyday life. (Which basically means that I, who doubt, prefer
works dealing with spirituality that acknowledge doubt to those
which do not. The fact that works that acknowledge doubt tend
to be deeper in other respects as well, and those that don't tend
to be almost moral cartoons, has nothing to do with this.)
(And speaking of moral cartoons . . . someone [I don't know who]
did a study [which I do not know the particulars of] of The Simpsons,
and found that 70 percent [a number I dimly recall but could be
making up] of the episodes dealt with spiritual matters at least
in part. The Simpsons, to me, has been all over the map in its
dealings with spirituality, from its mocking of the pieties of
the Flanderses and Reverend Lovejoy, to the saccharine "Bart
sells his soul to Milhouse episode"; but when I think of
television creating a character who gains a deep and certain strength
from her faith, and isn't treated cynically, I think of Marge
Simpson.)
One of the differences between Homicide and Buffy is that on the
realistic Homicide, Pembleton can come to accept a benevolent
God, but he can never know; whereas on Buffy, where the supernatural
is an everyday event, if there is a benevolent God, sooner or
later He's going to show up and give Buffy a medal. Well, maybe
not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: TV that does religion
well -- mundusmundi, 13:19:50 08/14/01 Tue
It'd be an Amends'-like miracle should it happen, but I keep hoping
one day Nothing Sacred will turn up somewhere in syndication.
It was on for only a year and a half, I think. Unfortunately,
somebody had the boneheaded idea to write an abortion-themed storyline
for only its second episode, in a cheap attempt to get attention
and naturally drawing the wrong kind. It really was a good show,
though, even if Jennifer Beals appeared in season 2 as a sexy
nun. (One critic quipped, "Doncha think Father Mike will
be, heh, heh, tempted?")
Loved the first few seasons of The Simpsons. Stopped watching
a year or two ago (too painful, which makes me hope Buffy doesn't
go beyond 2003). I remember Homer reading the Bible and remarking,
"Talk about a preachy book! Everybody's a sinner! (points
to a page) Except this guy."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Communion Elemenents (semi-OT) -- Helen, 06:28:37
08/13/01 Mon
Hi,
I'm letting my own post up the top go and joining in down here
if that's okay. The questions I raised about the power of the
cross and Christian symbols have been addressed, but I have others!
What about the afterlife? Is there one in the Buffyverse? Are
Joyce and Buffy in hell, in some form of paradise or are they
just floating around, and could be brought back if required? And
if there isn't an afterlife, what about justice - is there any!
Just as vexing to me was, where did Angel's soul go? And is he
special, in that it was possible to bring back his soul because
he was destined to be a warrior for the PTB, or are all vamp souls
redeemable?? Horror of horrors, could Joss just not know!!
Sorry, no constructive comments, just shed loads of questions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Communion Elemenents (semi-OT) -- Juliette,
12:15:14 08/13/01 Mon
I really liked the open-ended nature of The Body, when Dawn asks
"where did she go?" and there is no answer. I prefer
things like that to remain a mystery - just as they are a mystery
to us in real life. I find JW's emphasis on 'souls' fascinating
- presumably he thinks of this as his 'mythology' but there is
no denying that the word 'soul' has very Christian connotations,
not to mention the fact that crosses and holy water repel vampires,
so to suggest that there is no life after death in the Buffyverse
(other than vampires etc) would contradict some of the series'
fundamental concepts. Also, I agree that it would be nice to see
a character with some sort of religious faith other than the Knights
of Byzantium, but I'm not sure I would want JW to write such a
character - I have read religious characters written by atheists
before, and the writer has invariably misunderstood the nature
of faith and what religion is really about
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> souls & religions -- anom, 21:23:30 08/13/01
Mon
"...but there is no denying that the word 'soul' has very
Christian connotations..."
Sigh. Yes there is. OK, yeah, for Christians it has, but they're
the only ones (& not even all of them) who think those are its
only connotations. Many--probably most--human belief systems include
belief in a soul, going back before Christianity even existed.
In fact, are there any that don't? I bet someone on this board
can give examples if there are any.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: souls & religions -- Rufus,
22:11:56 08/13/01 Mon
And that is the problem when it comes to souls, people use Christian
standards to interpert what the soul is in the Buffyverse. I think
that Joss may be saying something very different than what Christians
are taught about the soul. When I think of the soul I consider
what Joss considers the soul to be not my Sunday school and latter
training tells me. Remember the roomate Kathy in season four had
no soul, she may have been wrong to attempt to steal Buffy's but
she was someone rebelling against parental authority, not some
demon with stricly evil intent. So, what does the soul mean? Is
it the only standard we can judge good by?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: souls & religions -- Helen,
08:28:25 08/14/01 Tue
I never got the impression that having a soul makes you good,
so I don't see it as a benchmark in that way (Spike has elements
of goodness without one, and Angel went through a very dark period
over Darla even with a soul). I don't even think the soul is conscience.
Its more one of the things that just makes you human.
It would be interesting to find out whether Anya and Dawn have
souls - both having formally been other than human.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: souls & religions -- KoopaFanatic,
10:15:19 08/14/01 Tue
> In fact, are there any that don't? I bet someone on >
this board can give examples if there are any.
The first major one that comes to mind is Buddhism. (As a caveat,
I'm a little rusty on my comparative religions...) One of the
most important (and at the time revolutionary) teachings of the
Buddha was the anatman doctrine, alternately translated as "no-soul"
or "no-self." One of the keys to the Buddha's enlightenment
was the knowledge of the impermanence of the self: although "you"
exist as an entity, and it can be said that "you" have
gone through countless prior rebirths, there is no actual "you"
that survives the death of "your" body. This concept
of "selfness" (atman) is simply a convenient fiction
that we as finite beings use to interact with one another from
day to day.
It's my understanding that anatman is still a vital doctrine in
both modern Theraveda and most Mahayana traditions. In Theraveda
the concept exists much as it did in classical Buddhism, while
in some Mahayana schools (the Japanese Pure Land sect, for example)
there has developed a belief in a heaven-like afterlife. The most
common explanation is that these doctrines arose in conflict with
anatman as an evangelical tool: people balked at converting to
classical Buddhism beliefs because the theology was so radically
different from that to which they were accustomed, so missionaries
would adapt beliefs from native religions to encourage conversions.
This is the commonly-accepted reason why Tibetan Buddhism and
Zen Buddhism are so different from one another in practices and
dogma while still being part of the same tradition (Mahayana).
I hope this summary is coherent enough to follow. Writing about
religion usually gives me a headache, and today is no exception.
If I've made any grievous errors above, please let me know. Like
I said, I'm slightly rusty on the subject... :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: souls & religions -- anom,
21:16:50 08/14/01 Tue
Thanks, I was hoping for an actual answer! I knew Buddhism doesn't
have deities, but that doesn't necessarily imply nonbelief in
souls. In fact, friends of mine once told me of someone they know
who likes to bug atheists by offering to buy their souls. According
to my friends, this guy never found any takers. But I don't think
there's necessarily a connection for everyone (there is to me,
but I don't expect everyone to think like I do). I don't see why
someone who doesn't believe in God or gods couldn't believe in
some animating individual principle intrinsic to s/him* that is
precious & that "selling" it would trivialize it.
*S/he, s/him, s/his (pronounced sh'hee, sh'him, sh'his) are my
solutions to the gendered pronoun problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: souls & religions
-- KoopaFanatic, 09:31:50 08/15/01 Wed
"I don't see why someone who doesn't believe in God or gods
couldn't believe in some animating individual principle intrinsic
to s/him* that is precious & that "selling" it would
trivialize it."
Actually, I agree with you. I know quite a few people* who don't
believe in any deities, or at least in any specific ones beyond
a sort of all-is-god/god-is-all mentality, but many of these people
have a very strong belief in immortal souls**.
Besides, you should always prepare for the worst. Think of the
Simpsons ep where Bart sells his soul. Better not to take any
chances in case there is something to this whole concept of a
soul :-)
*Three cheers for anecdotal evidence! **They also tend to believe
in angels, UFOs, Atlantis, ESP, and vast international Illuminated
conspiracies, so take it for what it's worth...
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: souls & religions -- Juliette,
14:19:47 08/14/01 Tue
When I mentioned the Christian connotations of the 'soul,' I really
meant the word itself. Do any other belief systems use the word
'soul'? (I have to confess, I don't know much about religions
other than Christianity and a little bit of Judaism) In my experience,
the word has always been used referring to Christian life after
death, though I am aware that most other belief systems have some
sort of belief in life after death.
For
Henry James Fans....(OT) -- mundusmundi, 19:22:27 08/10/01 Fri
Totally OT, but anyone who likes Henry James may want to go check
out The Others, the new Nicole Kidman ghost flick. It's not for
everyone's tastes, and the projectionist in the theater I attended
kept botching the sound, but I got caught up in it. Comparisons
with The Sixth Sense will be inevitable, but it's really a different
kind of film, with HJ's sense of moody atmosphere and psychological
fear-of-sex undertones (that I didn't guess the big twist in the
first 5 minutes was also a plus). Bonus: Kidman looks Grace Kelly
gorgeous.
Okay, now where's OnM and his Classic Movie? :)
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[> Re: For Henry James Fans....(OT) -- Wisewoman, 19:34:02
08/10/01 Fri
I actually had a nightmare the other night about that thing under
the veil saying, "Are you mad? I am your daughter!"
I haven't seen the movie, but they keep playing that promo on
TV. Urk!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: For Henry James Fans....(OT) -- Dariel, 20:02:53 08/10/01
Fri
Thanks for the suggestion. I love Henry James, even though his
eliptical writing style can be so maddening.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: For Henry James Fans....(OT) -- Andy, 20:25:10 08/10/01
Fri
I'll second that recommendation, even though I haven't read much
Henry James :) The Others is my favorite movie that I've seen
this summer. Nice classic ghost story.
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[> Re: For Henry James Fans....(OT) -- Vonnie, 20:39:02 08/10/01
Fri
Is "Others" based on "Turn of the Screw"?
The commercial sort of looked like it, except Nicole Kidman was
the kids' mother, not the governess as in the book. Anyway, TOTS
is one of the few James oeuvres I can stomach. I find most of
his other stories incredibly dense and difficult to go through,
except "The Portrait of a Lady" which I love. Hmm. Any
other spooky Jamesian stories I may not have heard of?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> That's the one I was thinking of.... -- mm, 20:45:39
08/10/01 Fri
Not a literal adaptation (it's an original script), but interesting
thematic similarities.
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[> Your theater actually has a projectionist? Gee... -- OnM,
21:52:57 08/10/01 Fri
Thanks for the heads up on this one, I'm a fan of Nicole Kidman,
so if the movie seems decent, I'll probably go see it.
BTW, mm (or anyone else with movie related stuff or recommendations),
feel free (if you want) to post about any new flicks you have
seen that you enjoyed (or not) within my weekly CMotW posting,
that way it kind of clusters all the movie related stuff together.
As always, just be very careful about spoiler material if the
film is in current release-- mark your post titles appropriately
if you discuss specific elements of the film.
This weeks column is up, posted just a few minutes ago!
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> thanks for the offer.... -- mundusmundi, 06:33:06
08/11/01 Sat
I try not to commandeer other people's threads, though personally
I don't mind if my own are hijacked a bit (nor does most anyone
else, I suspect). Part of the fun around here is watching ideas
take on a life of their own.
I'm also with you on spoilers. One difficulty of talking about
a movie is knowing how much to say: You don't want to ruin it
for anyone, but at the same time you want to give enough of a
taste that entices others to see it. Everyone's comments about
this flick are pretty generalized and hopefully not spoilerish
(if they are, rap my knuckles for it).
Lastly, just to make this relevant to the Buffyverse, any comparisons
between The Others and I Only Have Eyes for You, one of my all-time
favorite BtVS episodes? (Again, if any, mark 'em with spoilers.)
Xander and Buffy...(not in the
shipper sense) -- Kerri, 21:06:31 08/10/01 Fri
Xander seems to have been down played a lot this past season.
Honestly, I never was really a big Xander fan. I have no problem
with his not having powers; actually I think that is one of the
things that makes him most interesting.
I noticed that when the season ended Buffy has solidified her
realitionship with everyone important to her-everyone except Xander.
When Buffy died Dawn knew just how important she was to Buffy.
They had been through so much together. After "Forever"
their relationship really changed. Buffy took care of Dawn; she
did her best to be Dawn's protector, mother, sister, and friend.
Dawn understood how much Buffy loved her; afterall she sacraficed
her life for her sister.
Giles told Buffy in "Spiral" how proud he was of her.
He told her what he admired most was her putting her heart above
all else; which I believe gave Buffy support for her decission
not to sacrafice Dawn. Buffy's last words included telling Giles
she had figured it out and she was ok. Again a sense of closure
between the two.
While it wasn't anything huge there was also a sense that Buffy
and Willow really understood what they meant to eachother. Willow
saved Buffy in "TWOTW" and the last scene where Buffy
breaks down in her friend's arms shows how strong their relationship
will always be. Also the scene in "The Gift" where Buffy
tells Willow how strong she is was important in their relationship.
The Buffy/Angel relationship was left on a good note. Angel was
there for Buffy. They still love each other as much as ever and
knew those feelings could never change.
Even Buffy and Tara seemed to be much closer. Buffy wouldn't allow
Mr. McClay to take Tara, saying that they were true family. Also
after Joyce died Tara offered her support to Buffy.
There was Spike's speech to Buffy in "The Gift", and
the fact that Buffy trusted Spike with Dawn's life which says
more than words possibly could.
But absolutely nothing with Xander. No recognition of their friendship
or what they mean to each other.
I read somewhere(I honestly can't remember where-some interview
with Joss) that there originally was a scene between Buffy and
Xander in "The Gift" that got cut. Too bad. I honestly
felt that there was something missing between the two friends.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Sometimes it's the little things....... -- Rufus, 22:09:55
08/10/01 Fri
With Anya a constant companion, Xander just isn't as available
as a friend. But there was that sweet scene in IWMTLY where Xander
makes Buffy feel a bit better about her situation regarding men,
she gave him a very nice hug. And then later he danced with her(Anya
said she wasn't treatened). Buffy may not always be overt about
it but Xander is one of her best friends and she did recognise
his contributions in Checkpoint when she told Travers about the
amount of field time Xander had put in.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Actually, the omitted scene didn't really have any
interaction between the two...... -- The Wallflower, 22:48:15
08/10/01 Fri
As much as it Xander's expression of the profound and postive
impact and influence Buffy's heroism and friendship have had on
him as human being. I thought this was a beautiful moment and
poor error in judgement of whomever is responsible to have edited
it out. The point of the first twenty minutes of the episode were
to establish Buffy's life and identity of the present and past
through her current apocalyptic predicament and on a more human
note her consanguinities she had formed with the people in her
life. She had her private moments with Giles, Willow, and even
Spike. Yet the moment designed to illustrate Xander's aspect in
her life was wrong IMO. Here is the ommitted scene from The Gift,
it takes place following Xander's proposal to Anya in the Magic
Box basement:
He starts to take that ring out -
ANYA (cont'd) No.
XANDER No?
ANYA After. Give it to me when the world doesn't end.
They kiss. He smiles, pocketing the ring. Turns to look for the
sphere --
ANYA (cont'd) What makes you so sure it won't?
XANDER Buffy. She'll find a way. Figure out what's gotta be done.
ANYA She did say she'd let everybody die.
He looks at the Buffybot as he speaks, almost as if addressing
her. She stares back at him.
XANDER I've known her for five years, she doesn't back down, she
doesn't fail. You see me doing anything remotely heroical, that's
something I learned from her.
He puts his hand on the bot's shoulder.
XANDER (cont'd) Buffy'll see us through.
And pulls it casually out of the way so it lands with a great
metallic crash face down out frame, revealing more boxes.
XANDER (cont'd) Now where's that pesky sphere?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Counter Point -- Cactus Watcher, 06:52:37 08/11/01 Sat
I think you are completely wrong. I think Buffy and Xander are
closer than ever. As I said in the "Anya" thread I think
it's clear Xander is really closer to Buffy now than Willow. Among
other things, you've forgotten that enormous hug Buffy g