July 2001 posts
Vampires, Mora demon blood,
and gypsy curses. -- Earl Allison, 03:31:39 07/23/01 Mon
Apologies if this has been addressed ad nauseum before ...
Isn't it a very dangerous precident for there to be what is in
essence a "cure" to vampirism? That "all"
one needs (a lot, but doable) to restore someone from undeath
is to introduce Mora (sp?) demon blood into their system and possibly
before that restore their soul via the gypsy curse spell?
Doesn't that diminish the threat of being turned somewhat?
I ask because it's something I've thought of a lot, especially
with vampires I like in the series, like Harmony.
Cordelia was pretty hopeful that VampHarmony could change during
"Disharmony." Why not simply GIVE her a soul once Angel
said that her nature was to turn on everyone?
Even if no one in the main cast could handle the spell, it seems
likely that SOMEONE in LA could be contacted to perform the ritual.
Of course, given Harmony's bedroom tendencies, the "moment
of true happiness" might be more problematic, but still ...
And Angel surely remembers that the demon blood would restore
a vampire to life. I grant you, it's not something he'd want everyone
to know -- especially since Buffy would likely pound him into
the ground like a tent peg when she realized he could be human
at any time, regardless of prophecy. Again, risky, but doable.
He couldn't manage this for Harmony (or Drusilla, or Darla) and
find a way to explain that it was a one-shot special item?
In fact, now that I think about it, could Mora demon blood have
restored Darla, have cured her ailing heart?
So, am I off the wall, or is any of this making sense?
Take it and run.
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[> Love your tent-peg imagery -- Cactus Watcher, 06:47:18 07/23/01
Mon
Angel's internal sense of right and wrong seems to defy comprehension
at times. But, he does obviously have principles he won't go against,
ever. That's the best I can do to explain it.
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[> [> Agreed - that line cracked me up! ;-) -- Solitude1056,
07:42:25 07/23/01 Mon
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[> Bringing a vampire back to life...is it morally right? --
Kerri, 13:57:07 07/23/01 Mon
So if you are faced with killing a vampire or turning him/her
human which do you chose?
Now it might seem that it would be kind to give the person another
chance at life. However, on the other hand, if we consider that
after a vampire "dies"-that is changes from its human
form to the vampire form-its soul moves on to the next life, just
as it would have done had the person died, would it really be
fair to bring the soul back? This seems to me to be a bit like
ressurection spells. Instead to really be kind to the person would
be to stake the vampire thus allowing the rest of the person to
move on to the afterlife along with the soul. Since we are not
certain what happens to the soul after a person is vamped in the
Buffyverse let's look at another option. Suppose it is something
like in Dracula: the only was for the person to move on to the
next life was for the vampire to be killed. So once again it seems
that the "kindest" thing to do is to allow natural death
to occur and to allow that person to move on to their afterlife
peacefully.
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[> [> Depends on what you think the soul is...... -- Rufus,
14:53:13 07/23/01 Mon
Joss has said that the soul is the star by which the souled or
soulless naturally are attracted to. So if that is what that means
then I have no problem with a vampire being brought back to life.
Angel made it clear that when his soul was returned he was then
able to care about all the murders he had done. The return of
the soul didn't bring back from the other side Liam but restored
Angel/Liam's ability to care about what he had done as a vampire.
The Gypsies didn't do this to make life easy for Liam but to torment
the demon. Angel got the eternal torment he had forced upon Drusilla.
The Gypsies wanted revenge, not to let Angel actually enjoy a
life. If it is the most humane thing to do, kill the vampire to
let them fully move on to the afterlife then that means Angel
should top the list. My opinion is that the vampire is who they
once were now with a demon inside, the loss of the soul was the
loss of the conscience, not who the person was. I remember Gunns
line "Don't we kill them anymore?", good question, if
killing the vampire frees the mortal to go to his reward then
why doesn't Buffy or Angel kill them all?
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[> [> [> "Don't we kill them anymore?" -- Humanitas,
20:25:08 07/23/01 Mon
Now that you mention it, there's never been mention (that I can
racall - please correct me if I'm wrong) of killing the vampire
to release the victim. Vampires are killed in defense of the rest
of humanity, because they will inevitably kill again.
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[> [> [> [> Re: "Don't we kill them anymore?"
-- Malandanza, 07:56:36 07/24/01 Tue
"Now that you mention it, there's never been mention (that
I can recall - please correct me if I'm wrong) of killing the
vampire to release the victim. Vampires are killed in defense
of the rest of humanity, because they will inevitably kill again."
When Darla is revamped, Angel tells the others he can stil save
her -- if he stakes her before she rises.
ANGEL: I can save her. WESLEY: Save whom? ANGEL: Darla. WESLEY:
Angel -- if what you've been saying is so -- there is no saving
Darla. Not now. ANGEL:It's not too late
If all Angel was worried about was making sure that vampire Darla
died. there would not have been the sense of urgency in this scene.
I think that Angel believes that the souls is in some way corrupted/trapped/lost
when the vampire rises. He alludes to this impression when he
tells Darla that she damned him by changing him into a vampire.
Wesley, an erudite ex-watcher, does not share Angel's view --
Angel may merely be operating under the influence of superstition
or Wesley may be misinformed.
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[> Why don't they restore all the souls? -- Marie, 03:57:29
07/24/01 Tue
Actually, that has puzzled me on and off ever since they re-restored
Angel's soul. Although I understand that this is very strong magic,
and should perhaps be used sparingly, I don't really see why they
can't use Jenny Calendar's spell to return souls to certain vamps
- I'm thinking Spike here, of course!
(I know why the writers don't do it for story-interest purposes,
of course, also that the spell takes time and they couldn't do
it for every vamp they meet in street, I'm just wondering why
no-one's ever suggested trying it).
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[> [> Re: Why don't they restore all the souls? -- d'Herblay,
12:59:02 07/24/01 Tue
I would imagine -- at least before the crush set in -- that Spike
would be perfectly happy just sitting around with a Guiness watching
Premier League football on cable. "Uh-oh, Willow. David Beckham
just got a hat trick. Time to do the curse again."
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1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- rowan, 12:40:30
07/20/01 Fri
A "simple" question -- which episode do you think is
the funniest & why? Please make sure you describe it in detail
(including excerpted quotes if you can) so that we can enjoy the
laugh with you.
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- d'Herblay,
13:19:10 07/20/01 Fri
Too many to name them all. I'm partial to "Bewitched, Bothered
and Bewildered," "Homecoming" and, over on Angel,
"Disharmony," but then I'm a Cordelia fan. Milk shooting
out my nostrils funny was the opening of "In the Dark,"
with Spike providing Angel's voiceover:
"'How can I thank you, you mysterious black-clad hunk of
a night thing?' "No need, little lady. Your tears of gratitude
are enough for me. You see, I was once a bad-ass vampire, but
love -- and a pesky curse -- defanged me. And now I'm just a big,
fluffy puppy with bad teeth. [The woman below goes to touch Angel.
Angel shrinks back.] No! Not the hair! Never the hair.' 'But there
must be some way I can show my appreciation.' 'No! Helping those
in need's my job. Working up a load of sexual tension and prancing
away like a magnificent poof is truly thanks enough.' 'I understand.
I have a nephew who's gay, so--' 'Say no more! Danger is afoot,
and I'm almost out of that nancy-boy hair gel I like so much.
Quickly! To the Angelmobile! Away!'"
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- Cactus
watcher, 14:22:09 07/20/01 Fri
My favorite is "The Wish."
Lots of great moments including...
The gang has recently 'captured' Spike who is chained up in Giles'
bathtub. It's Buffy's turn to take care of him. Spike is forced
to sip his blood from a straw from a cup in Buffy's hand. The
cup reads 'Kiss the Librarian!' Spike gripes about this. Buffy's
taunts enrage him. Spike threatens to break his chains and...
Buffy calls out in a falsetto "Giles, help! He's gonna scold
me!"
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[> [> Stupid me -- Cactus Watcher, 19:12:47 07/20/01 Fri
I was looking in the wrong spot in the book. The correct title
of my choice "Something Blue."
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- Sam
Gamgee, 15:03:53 07/20/01 Fri
Whenever "funniest" BtVS episode (or AtS) is brought
up, my mind automatically leaps to The Zeppo. Now, I know this
episode may not have had the most laughs per minute, but it certainly
gets me laughing every time I even think about it. Plus, it is
probably my favorite Xander episode ever.
There are so many moments to pick from, but I will hit the ones
that pop to mind right away for me: the music, especially the
scene between Angel and Buffy that Xander interrupts and how it
surges back up when he leaves, and the cheesy porn-music (not
that I would know anything about that) when Xander and Faith get
up with people; Dead Bob wanting to know if Jack has been taping
Walker, Texas Ranger; Xander interrogating Parker before being
interrupted by a mailbox (okay, maybe I'm the only one who found
that funny).
JACK: Are you scared? XANDER: Would that make you happy?
XANDER: Shoulda learned by now. If you're gonna play with fire
you gotta expect that sooner or later I wasn't finished! Note
to self: less talk.
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[> [> Re: The Zeppo -- mundusmundi, 13:14:26 07/21/01 Sat
Great ep. Ya gotta love a show that lifts an idea from Rosencrantz
& Gildenstern Are Dead -- Tom Stoppard's satirical play about
the two supporting characters from Hamlet bemoaning their insignificance
while the main plot happens off stage.
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- Wisewoman,
17:50:25 07/20/01 Fri
For me, it's gotta be Something Blue and the whole Buffy/Spike
engagement scenario...they snipe at each other even when they're
supposedly madly in love!
Buffy: There's so much to decide. Ceremony, guests, reception..
Spike: Well, first thing I'd say, we're not having a church wedding.
Buffy: How 'bout a daytime ceremony. In the park.
Spike: Fabulous. Enjoy your honeymoon with the big pile of dust.
Buffy: Under the trees. Indirect sunlight, only.
Spike: Warm breeze tosses the leaves aside, and again - you're
registering as Mr and Mrs Big-Pile-of-Dust.
Buffy: Stop it! This is our wedding and you're treating it like
a big joke!
Spike: Oh, pouty! Look at that lip.. gonna get it.. gonna get
it..
..and...
Spike: He's [Giles] gonna have to take a bit of time to get used
to it, pet.
Buffy: They all will. (She turns back to Giles) But you guys weren't
crazy about Angel at first, either.
(Spike gets upset)
Spike: You wern't gonna say that name.
Buffy: Sorry. Why don't we talk about where we're going to register.
Spike: Well, where would Angel like to register? And can we have
the photographer Angel would've wanted? And, flowers Angel would
have liked?
Buffy: (Stands) Hey! You think I don't live with the shadow of
Drusilla over my head? That I'm not wondering if you're going
to be thinking of her on our honeymoon when you're making.. sweet
love to me..?
..and...
Buffy: Honey, we need to talk about the invitations. Now, do you
wanna be William the Bloody, or just Spike? 'Cause, either way,
it's gonna look majorly weird.
Spike: Where as the name Buffy gives it that touch of classic
elegance.
Buffy: What's wrong with Buffy?
Giles: Huh.. such a good question.
Spike: (Ignoring Giles) Well, it's a terrible name.
Buffy: My mother gave me that name.
Spike: Your mother, yeah, she's a genius.
Buffy: Don't you start in on my mother.
Yup, they were well on the way to a normal, healthy, co-dependent,
dysfunctional relationship!
;o)
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[> [> Can't help but agree with your choice. -- Avatar 2001,
19:38:56 07/20/01 Fri
It's nearly impossible to choose the funniest episode of BtVS
but at the end I must agree with you. I just crack up whenever
I remember that episode. You only laugh once but when you start
you just can't stop.
Buffy: Giles! You'll never believe what's happened! (Buffy holds
up her now ringed ring finger.)
(...)
Giles: Willow, it's-it's me. Something's happened. I need your
help. I can't see very well. Everything's blurred. (He grabs the
scotch) I'm certain it's a spell of some kind, because.... well...it
seems something else is going wrong...
(Buffy bring Spike a mug of blood. She sits on his lap.)
Buffy: Here you go ... 98.6. (They kiss) Giles:... horribly wrong.
(...)
Buffy: Giles, did you see my ring? Giles: Thankfully, not very
well.
(...)
Buffy: From now on, we're a family. Giles: That's alright. I have
more scotch.
(...)
Riley: What's his name? Buffy: Who? Riley: The groom. Buffy: Spike!
Riley: That's a name? Buffy: Don't be mad. Riley: I'm not mad!
Buffy: No, you are mad! Riley: No, I am! Er... I really... Wow.
Who is this guy? Does he go here? Buffy: Spike? (Laughs) Oh, no...
He's totally old. Riley: Old. Buffy: Well, not as old as my last
boyfriend was. Riley: (Befuddled) Okay.... It's late.... and I'm,
I'm very tired now. So, I'm just gonna go far away and be... away.
(...)
Spike: This is the crack team that foils my every plan? I am deeply
shamed.
(...)
Buffy: (Excitedly) Spike and I are getting married! Xander: (Baffled)
How? What? How? Giles: Three excellent questions. Spike: (To Buffy)
What are you lookin' at? Buffy: The man I love. (They kiss. A
lot. Anya and Xander look a bit disgusted) Xander: Can I be blind,
too?
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[> [> [> Giles did get most of the best lines in that
ep! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 22:33:55 07/20/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Funniest: The Initiative -- Simplicity,
07:20:54 07/21/01 Sat
This is one of my favorite episodes. I love it when Spike is agitated
or provoked about something.
Spike and another vamp are trapped in sterile white cells. . .
Other Vamp (O.V)
They're gonna kill us, you know.
Spike: And how are "they" going to do that?
O.V.: They starve you. And when you're ready to bite your own
arm, they shoot out one of those packets. You drink, and the next
thing you know - you're gone. That's when they do the experiments.
Spike: And "they" are .... the government? Nazis? A
major cosmetics company?
O.V. Who cares? All I know is, one minute I'm running from the
Slayer, and the next thing, I'm here.....
Spike (ticked off): The Slayer. I knew it I KNEW IT!
O.V.: She took apart my crew and drove me straight to these guys.
Spike: She set me up, too! I always worried what would happen
if the bitch got some funding. She wised up a bit. Fine. I'll
take her apart - I don't care how brilliant she is.
Cut to a scene of Buffy with ink all over her hands and papers
from an exploded ink pen, she looks perplexed.
I LOVE Xander and Harmony arguing. There just. . .cute!
Xander(in a Western, high noon shoot out tone): Harmony
Harmony: Xander
Xander (whipping out a stake): That's close enough.
Xander: I'm warning you. I'm highly trained to put this through
your heart. No mercy, no warning.
Harmony: I can kill you where you stand.
Xander (shades of UPN's Smackdown!): Bring it on, then.
Xander (shocked): OW!
Harmony: Sissy kicker!
Xander Ow - ooh - quit - cut it out ... !
Harmony: I'm just - just - just - so gonna bite you ... ow!
Xander: Okay, stop. Stop. We both just stop. Okay?
Harmony:
I will if you will.
Xander: On three, okay? Ready, one, two ..
Three. Right. Okay. Harmony. Great catching up, really. I'll just
pick up the last tattered shreds of my dignity and go home now.
I'll be honest, I love W/S interactions. She's so kind to him,
even though he has tried to kill her and her friends numerous
times. The impotence insinuation is hysterical!
Willow is lying on the bed, looking confused and afraid. Spike
is sitting on the side of it, looking much the same way. Willow:
Maybe you were nervous.
Spike: I felt alright when we started. Let's try again. Damn it!
Willow: You're probably just trying too hard. Doesn't this happen
to every vampire?
Spike: Not to me, it doesn't!
Willow:
It's me isn't it?
Spike : What are you talking about?
Willow: You came looking for Buffy, then settled. You didn't want
to bite me, I just happened to be around.
Spike: Don't be ridiculous. Why, I'd bite you in a heartbeat.
Willow: Really?
Spike: Thought about it.
Willow: When?
Spike: Remember last year? You had on that fuzzy pink number with
the lilac underneath... (nods, little bit of a leer)
Willow: I never would have guessed. You play the blood-lust kind
of cool.
Spike: I hate being obvious. All fang-y and *grrr.*
Takes the mystery out.
Willow: But if you could, you'd ...
Spike IF. .I could. . . yeah.
Willow (trying to make him feel better): You know, this doesn't
make you any less terrifying. ***only Willow would try to help
a vamp who just tried to eat her!
Spike: Don't patronize me!
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Funniest: The Initiative --
Rattletrap, 12:01:17 07/21/01 Sat
The scene w/ Willow and Spike was hilarious, but offset by coming
after one of the most disturbing scenes the show has ever aired.
Spike's attempt to bite Willow was hauntingly similar to a rape
scenario that happens a dozen times a year on college campuses
across the country. Only Joss could shift gears like that and
make it work.
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- Rattletrap,
06:54:04 07/21/01 Sat
From this season, gotta go with "Intervention," I laughed
until it hurt.
XANDER: Buffy's gone insane. (Anya nods) WILLOW: What? What'd
she do? XANDER: Brace yourself. You're not gonna believe it. TARA:
Everyone, before we jump all over her, people do strange things
when someone they love dies. When I lost my mother, I-I did some
pretty dumb stuff, like lying to my family and staying out all
night. ANYA: Buffy's boinking Spike. Xander nods. Willow and Tara
look surprised. WILLOW: (pause) Oh ... well, Ta-Tara's right.
Grief can be powerful, and we shouldn't judge- TARA: What are
you, kidding? She's nuts!
. .
BUFFYBOT: I don't know where Xander is. I haven't seen him. And
when I came out of the tunnel, Spike was gone. I need to find
him. WILLOW: (winces) Um ... Buffy, this thing with Spike, i-i-it
isn't true, is it? You didn't, you know, sleep with Spike? BUFFYBOT:
No. Willow smiles with relief. BUFFYBOT: I had sex with Spike.
(Willow winces again) I'm sorry if it bothers you. You're my best
friend. WILLOW: I-I am. And I, I always will be, no matter what
you do. I, I'm just trying to figure out why this happened, and
I, I think with ... your mom and everything ... everyone was being
all sympathetic, and, and making you feel weak. A-and Spike wasn't
like that. So, just this one time, you just ... did something
kinda ... crazy. BUFFYBOT: (shakes head) It wasn't one time. It
was lots of times. And lots of different ways. I could make sketches.
WILLOW: (disgusted) No! Buffy, there is something seriously wrong
here! I ... (the bot looks confused) Okay, yeah, you've been with
a vampire before, but Angel had a soul. BUFFYBOT: Angel's lame.
His hair grows straight up, and he's bloody stupid. WILLOW: (confused)
Okay ... look, I just wanna help you. Let me help you. BUFFYBOT:
You're my best friend. WILLOW: Yeah. Again, I ... really am, but...
BUFFYBOT: You're recently gay.
. .
XANDER: Buffy, we need to talk. BUFFY: (alarmed) What's wrong?
Is Dawn okay? WILLOW: Dawn's fine. XANDER: Buffy, we care about
you, and we're worried about you. The way you're acting, the things
you're doing- ANYA: It's wrong. WILLOW: Wait. This shouldn't be
about blame. BUFFY: Blame? There's blame now? WILLOW: No, there's
only love. And ... some fear. ANYA: Which is kind of thrown by
the you having sex with Spike. BUFFY: The ... who whating how
with huh? ANYA: Okay, that's denial. That usually comes before
anger. BUFFY: (angrily) I am not having sex with Spike! ANYA:
Anger. XANDER: No one is judging you. It's understandable. Spike
is strong and mysterious and sort of compact but well-muscled.
BUFFY: (firmly) I am not having sex with Spike! But I'm starting
to think that you might be. XANDER: (scoffs) Buffy, I saw you.
Anya too. (Anya nods) We saw you and Spike ... (gestures vaguely)
with the straddling.
The Buffy Bot enters, looking offended.
BUFFYBOT: Spike's mine. Who's straddling Spike?
She strides up next to Buffy, who stares at her in amazement.
BUFFY: Oh my god. XANDER: (amazed) And so say all of us. BUFFYBOT:
Say, look at you. You look just like me! We're very pretty. WILLOW:
Two of them! XANDER: Hey, I know this! They're both Buffy! BUFFY:
(annoyed at him) No, *she*'s a robot. She acts just like that
girlfriend-bot that Warren guy made. You guys couldn't tell me
apart from a robot? BUFFYBOT: Oh, I don't think I'm a robot. ANYA:
She's very well done.
. .
BUFFY: (shrugs) It's all we got. GILES: (staring at the bot) Quite
extraordinary really. BUFFYBOT: Thank you. But I really think
we should be listening to the other Buffy, Giles. (She pronounces
it with a hard G like "guy") She's very smart and she's
gonna help us save Spike. GILES: Guy-les? (turns to address the
real Buffy) Spike didn't even bother to program my name properly.
BUFFY: Listen, skirt girl, we are not going to save him. We're
going to kill him. He knows who the key is, and there's no way
he's not telling Glory. BUFFYBOT: You're right. He's evil. (smiles)
But you should see him naked. I mean really. Buffy grimaces in
disgust. BUFFY: Okay, guys, split up and spread out. Check the
priciest-looking places first. Xander, you come with me. Willow,
Anya, stick together, and Guy-les ... Giles- (Giles looks annoyed)
you can watch ... it. Giles sighs, turns back to the bot. She
gives him a huge grin.
. .
SPIKE: It's that guy... on TV ... what's his name? GLORY: (frowns)
On the television? SPIKE: That show ... the prize show ... where
they guess what stuff cost? MURK: The Price Is Right? JINX: Oh,
Bob Barker! MURK: We will bring you Bob Barker! We will bring
you the limp and beaten body of Bob Bark-
also, honorable mention to "Triangle" for some of Olaf's
lines:
"Ha!, puny receptacle" "You fight well, although
you are a tiny man" " . . . they will never last, he
is ludicrous and far too breakable."
among others
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- Malandanza,
07:23:51 07/21/01 Sat
My choice is Superstar because of this scene:
BUFFY: I remember something. Giles, do you have a Jonathan Swimsuit
Calendar?
GILES: No.(a beat)Yes.
He opens a drawer, pulls out the Jonathan Swimsuit Calendar.
GILES: It was a gift.
Of course Something Blue was also very funny -- my favorite scene
from it is:
GILES: Yes, to have her will done. Whatever she says is coming
true.
BUFFY: And both you guys were affected. I probably only escaped
it because I'm the Slayer. Some kind of natural immunity.
XANDER: Yeah. Right. You're marrying Spike because you're so right
for each other.
BUFFY: Xander...
SPIKE: That's it. You're off the usher list.
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- voyageofbeagle,
07:45:39 07/21/01 Sat
Funniest overall episode- have to agree and go with the masses
and go with "Something Blue".
But- funniest scene ever is Giles' "presentation" about
the Gentleman in "Hush". Hilarious from start to finish.
- Giles with his dramatic music and finger waving - Xander misunderstanding
Willow's pantomiming of "heart" and mouthing "boobies?"
with a confused lok on his face -Everyone misunderstanding Buffy's
energetic hand motions that are suposed to be her staking -and
Buffy's lok of annoyance and horror when she she sees the picture
that Giles has drawn of her has big hips!
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode
-- Nina, 09:33:38 07/21/01 Sat
Hush was frightening and hilarious at the same time. My favorite
scene takes place in Giles' apartment. It starts with Giles and
Spike bumping into each other. Spike then serves himselves some
blood, turns in game face. The big misunderstanding that happens
then makes me laugh everytime. Xander comes in the apartment and
believes Spike bit Anya. Xander punches Spike in the face until
Anya wakes up. They finally leave to get some sweet loving. The
whole scene shot as a movie from the silent era, with dramatic
music in the background, is just superb!
Something blue and Intervention are probably the episodes in wich
I laughed the more per minute. Giles In "SB" and the
BuffyBot in "Intervention" were just hilarious. Have
to agree with those who mentioned those episodes before me.
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode
-- anom, 22:12:59 07/21/01 Sat
But the funniest touch was Anya eating popcorn & enjoying the
whole show.
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- mundusmundi,
12:53:45 07/21/01 Sat
Funniest episode: Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. There isn't
one single scene or line of dialogue that makes it great (though
Joyce coming on to Xander, and Xander's exasperation, gets me
in stitches every time). The whole thing just has great comic
momentum, each scene building laughs into the next.
Funniest scene: I'm picking the one below from Crush, the conversation
between Spike and Buffy following their "stakeout":
SPIKE Well, that was... sad.
Buffy looks around the "vamp campsite."
SPIKE I'm embarrassed for our kind. (then) So, should we chase
'em then? Can't have gone far.
BUFFY Those vamps have been here a while. They've nested.
SPIKE So, you're saying they're a couple of poofters.
BUFFY No. I'm saying they had nothing to do with last night's
murders.
SPIKE How do you figure?
BUFFY Whoever did it only just arrived in town last night.
She turns and moves to the exit.
BUFFY Looks like you just wasted my time.
Spike gets to the door first and holds it open for her. Buffy
stops in her tracks and jumps back, wigged.
BUFFY What are you--
Spike, confused at first, suddenly realizes what he's done and
lets go of the door.
SPIKE I... It was... I wasn't thinking...
Buffy, shaken, moves away from him.
BUFFY What is this, Spike?
SPIKE Don't get your knickers twisted, I was just-
BUFFY No. I mean, what is this? The late night stake out, the
bogus suspects, the flask... Is this a date?
SPIKE (stammering) A - ? Please... A date. You're completely off
your bird. I mean... (quickly/hopeful) Do you want it to be?
That's it. That's what Buffy needed to hear to confirm all of
her worst fears.
BUFFY Oh no. No... Are you out of your mind?
SPIKE It's not so unusual. Two people. In the workplace... Feelings
develop...
BUFFY No! Feelings do not develop. No feelings!
Spike starts to move toward her, but she backs away.
SPIKE You can't deny it. There's something between us.
BUFFY Loathing. Disgust-
SPIKE Heat. Desire-
BUFFY Please. You're a vampire, Spike!
SPIKE Angel was a vampire.
BUFFY Angel had a soul. He was good.
SPIKE And I can be too. I've changed Buffy.
BUFFY You mean the chip? That's not change. That's just holding
you back. You're like a serial killer in prison-
SPIKE Women marry them all the time!
An otherwise unsettling episode, as everyone knows, but this convo,
namely Spike's line about "Two people, in the workplace,"
cracks me up just thinking about it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> aaahhh, comedy... -- JBone, 19:48:35 07/21/01 Sat
Since one of the reasons I love Buffy, is the sharp comedy, I
have to weigh in here. You see, I have no choice. I absolutely
must post or risk recriminations. I see most of the obvious episodes
have been mentioned. Like the Xander-centric episodes like "Bewitched,
Bothered, and Bewildered", "Go Fish" (has it been
mentioned? The whole idea of Xander going undercover on the swim
team or as Buffy said 'not under much' is just hilarity ensuing),
"The Zeppo", and "Triangle" (probably more
Anya and Willow than Xander, but still quite funny).
In the last season and a half or so, the best funny lines have
gone to either Spike or Anya. But the funniest line are too numerous
to list. I would like to point out Cordelia episodes because they
were quite substantial. Like "Invisible Girl" (not all
that funny except for a couple lines), "Reptile Boy",
"Go Fish" (again a solid belly scratcher), and "Homecoming"
(Buffy taking on Queen C in the be-all of popularity contests
was fun to watch).
The only other character to get comedy episodes centered on them
is Giles. While I don't think this was a wise idea for more than
an episode or two, some of them have been decent. Starting in
"Bad Girls" in season 3, this marked a shift for Giles
to be more comic relief than authoritative character. "Earshot"
was an excellent episode that really didn't center around Giles,
but the 'you slept with my mother' line out of Buffy watching
Giles walking into a tree was too good. "A New Man",
well kinda sucked, while I enjoyed "Buffy vs Dracula".
The Dracubabes with Giles rocked.
The rest of the really funny episodes were ensemble based. Starting
early on in "The Puppet Show". Others are "Some
Assembly Required" (the chemistry between NB, AH, and even
CC really come out with this one along with Robia LaMorte as Jenny
Calender), "Halloween" (a great twist on Halloween episodes),
"Bad Eggs" (the first appearance of Lyle Gorch), "Faith,
Hope, and Trick" (Mr. Trick's and Faith's first appearance,
I'll always remember Trick yanking the guy out of the drive thru
window and eating the pizza delivery guy, and Xander being fascinated
by Faith's tales of naked slaying), "Band Candy" (Giles
as a teenager, enough said), "Dopplegangland" (Willow's
standout comedic performance), "Beer Bad" (Xander bartending,
Buffy going neanderthal, Willow shooting down Parker, and funny
hair), "Something Blue" (Giles had the funniest lines),
"Superstar" (from the start, through the opening credits,
rewrote Buffy for the funnier), "The Yoko Factor" (Spike
playing everyone), and "I Was Made To Love You" (Xander
and Willow checking out babes together).
I realize that I listed a whole lot of episodes, but I find a
ton of humor in the show. I believe the show really took off once
it tapped into Nicholas Brendons natural upbeat energy, and Charisma
Carpenters ability to put out those hilarious lines with ascerbic
wit. Turning Giles into a little more than a comedy player has
hurt, but the addition of James Marsters as Spike and Emma Caulfield
as Anya have added much needed life after the departure of CC.
This is probably the biggest thing holding AtS back. I remember
watching "Disharmony" thinking, 'I miss Cordelia's laugh.'
She should laugh more. I have probably blubbered way too much
by now, so I'll post and laugh at the replies rolling in.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: aaahhh, comedy... -- Rattletrap, 05:45:03 07/22/01
Sun
Ah, you do jog my memory though
The interaction between Giles and Wesley in "Bad Girls"
was great . . .
Wesley: Of course, training procedures have been updated quite
a bit since your day. Much greater emphasis on field work. Giles:
(very bored) Really? Wesley: Oh, yes. (walks around to another
box) Not all books and theory nowadays. (reaches in for some books)
I have, in fact, faced two vampires myself. Under controlled circumstances,
of course. Giles: (uncrosses his arms) Well, no danger of finding
those here. Wesley: (looks up) Vampires? Giles: Controlled circumstances.
(sees Buffy enter) Hello, Buffy. Wesley overhears, looks at her
and smiles condescendingly. Wesley: Well... (steps to the head
of the table) Hello. (smiles smugly) Buffy gives him a quick look
up and down. Buffy: (to Giles) New Watcher? Giles: New Watcher.
Wesley takes a step toward her and holds out his hand in greeting.
Wesley: Wesley Wyndam-Pryce. Buffy makes no move to return the
gesture, but continues to eye him critically. A moment later he
steps back again. Wesley: It's very nice to meet you. Buffy steps
over to Giles, never removing her eyes from Wesley. Buffy: Is
he evil? Wesley: (perplexed) Evil? Buffy: The last one was evil.
Wesley: (thoughtfully) Oh, yes. Gwendolyn Post. We all heard.
No. Mr. Giles has checked my credentials rather thoroughly and
phoned the Council, but I'm glad to see you're on the ball as
well. (takes a secretive step toward her) A good Slayer is a cautious
Slayer. (steps back) Buffy: (to Giles) Is he evil? Giles: Not
in the strictest sense.
or:
Wesley: (flips through Giles' diary) Oh, yes! Here's your first
entry. 'Slayer is willful and insolent.' (smirks) That would be
our girl, wouldn't it? Giles: (continues pacing, takes off his
glasses) Well, you have to get to know her. Wesley: Mm. (reads)
'Her abuse of the English language is such that I understand only
every other sentence.' (looks up) Oh, this is going to make fascinating
reading.
plus, the entire torture scene that is a little long to reproduce
here, the original draft was even better, but they toned it down
some by the final version.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I can't believe nobody has mentioned Triangle yet. -- Anthony8,
20:06:40 07/21/01 Sat
With the exception of Dawn and Joyce, everyone has some hilarious
dialogue. Had me laughing from opening to closing credits. For
example:
Xander sits between Anya and Willow looking uncomfortable. XANDER:
(to Buffy) So, how goes the slaying? BUFFY: I killed something
in a convent last night. XANDER: In any other room, a frightening
declaration. Here, a welcome distraction. (Anya and Willow both
look at him) Tell us all about the killing, Buff. BUFFY: Pretty
standard. Vampire staking. Ooh! But I met a nun, and she let me
try on her wimple. XANDER: Okay, now we're back to frightening.
....
Cut to: Spike holding a box of chocolates. He talks to someone
we can't see. SPIKE: (softly) Um ... there's something I got to
tell you. About showing you Riley in that place. (deep breath)
I didn't mean to ... (long pause) Anyway, I know you're feeling
all betrayed - by him, not me. (The camera pans around and we
see he is talking to a mannequin, which has no legs but wears
a blue blouse and a blonde wig. It's set up on a block of stone
so that it is about Buffy's height.) I was trying to help, you
know. Not like I made him be there, after all. Actually trying
to help you. Best intentions. He gets a little agitated, paces
a few steps away. SPIKE: I mean, you know, pretty state you'd
be in, thinking things are all right (moves back toward the mannequin)
while he's toddling halfway round the bend. (Stares at the mannequin,
gets madder) Oh, I'll insult him if I want to! I'm the one who's
on your side! Me! Doing you a favor! (very angry) And you, being
dead petty about it - me, getting nothing but your hatred and
your venom and - you ungrateful bitch! He loses control of himself,
smashes the box of chocolates over the mannequin's head. SPIKE:
Bitch!
......
Anya comes out from behind the counter and walks over to them.
ANYA: (annoyed) Hey. What are you two doing? WILLOW: Oh, we're
gonna try out a few spells. TARA: There's this thing you can do
where you create light, and we thought, what if you could make,
like, simulated sunlight? WILLOW: Yeah, so then, you know, there
Buffy is, middle of the night, and she finds this whole nest of
vamps, a-and then she just goes, "Presto!" TARA: Only
it won't be "presto" exactly. WILLOW: And, and voom!
There's a, a floating ball of sunlight. Vamps get dusty. TARA:
You don't wanna look right at it, though. ANYA: That's swell,
but you can't use this stuff. Giles has only been gone two days
and you're already causing trouble. You shouldn't do things while
he's gone. WILLOW: (smiling) You're the fish! ANYA: What? Tara
grins. WILLOW: The, the fish in the bowl, in The Cat in the Hat.
He was always saying that the cat shouldn't be there while the
mother was out. ANYA: What are you talking about? TARA: It's a
book. This cat does all this mischief. WILLOW: It's so cute. He
balances a bunch of stuff, including that fish in the bowl! A-and,
but don't try it for real when you're six, because then you're
not allowed to have fish for five years. ANYA: (upset) You're
referencing literature I have no way to be familiar with. You're
trying to make me feel left out, and you're stealing! WILLOW:
I'm not stealing. I-I'm just taking things without paying for
th... (pauses) In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?
.....
WILLOW: Anya, Giles would be totally fine with this. Come on,
it'll be fun. (Gets an idea) We could show you how to do some
stuff! You could be floatin' pencils by the end of the day. ANYA:
Sometimes I miss having powers. (Willow grins. Anya realizes something)
Oh. Oh! I know what this is! (shaking her finger at them) This
is peer pressure! Any second now you're gonna make me smoke tobacco
and, and have drugs. WILLOW: Look how easy. They all look at the
table. A small stick of dried sage and a vial rise off the table
and float in the air. ANYA: Hey! Don't float the merchandise!
(grabs the items and puts them back on the table) Willow turns.
A few items on the counter rise into the air. ANYA: Stop that!
Xander appears, walking past the floating stuff without noticing.
......
WILLOW: (walks back behind the counter, holding a mortar and pestle)
Xander, what I'm doing, it's a good thing. And if it doesn't work,
Giles never even needs to know about it. She puts the mortar and
pestle on the counter, takes a pinch of something out of the bowl,
and sprinkles it on the cash register. The register disappears
in a puff of pink smoke. WILLOW: Oops. Anya rushes over. The others
come over as well. ANYA: The cash register! What did you do with
the cash register? Dear god! WILLOW: I'll fix it, I'll fix it!
Recursat. (latin translation: revert/return) Another pink puff,
and the register reappears, now with the receipt paper hanging
out of it in long curls. Smoke rises out of it. WILLOW: There,
all back. Good as new. ANYA: Money. Did you hurt the money? (Opens
the cash register and coughs as more smoke (not pink) comes out)
Money good? (takes out some money and shakes it at Xander) She
endangered the money! (Xander shrugs) WILLOW: Of course, that's
what she cares about. (imitates Anya) "I like money better
than people. People can so rarely be exchanged for goods and/or
services." ANYA: (horrified) Xander, she's pretending to
be me! .......
We see a lamppost lying on the ground, broken in two. WILLOW:
I'm trying. Put the top up, the pages are all blowy! ANYA: Well,
I don't know how to put the top up, I only just figured out what
the left pedal does. (turns to smile at Willow) It makes us stop!
Anya slams on the brake and they slow down with a screech. Willow
grabs the side of the car for balance. Anya resumes driving. WILLOW:
You don't know how to drive? Why didn't you say you don't know
how to drive? ANYA: Well, I couldn't know if I could until I tried,
could I? They exchange an angry look. WILLOW: This is very, very
bad. There, there's an ogre on the loose- ANYA: Troll. WILLOW:
What? ANYA: Troll on the loose. Now hold on, I'm gonna press the
right pedal harder. (smiling) I expect us to accelerate. She presses
on the gas pedal and they both lean back in their seats as the
car speeds up. Willow looks very angry. WILLOW: (yelling over
the engine noise) There's a troll on the loose, and you're gonna
crash Giles' car! ANYA: (agreeing) It's likely. We're going very
fast. You should have listened to me and not done the spell. Giles
put me in charge. WILLOW: Giles can be an idiot. The smart kind,
but still. ANYA: Xander agreed. WILLOW: Oh, right. Xander doesn't
step out of line. ANYA: (turns to look at her) Well, what do you
mean by that? WILLOW: Nothing. Willow looks ahead, points at something.
Anya looks, twists the wheel quickly. The car screeches around
another corner, narrowly misses hitting another parked car, which
has its roof bashed in. Some of the papers fly out of Willow's
hands and are gone with the wind behind the car. Willow watches
them go. ANYA: Find that spell quickly! WILLOW: Whoa, that's gone.
......
XANDER: I'm gonna run and get Buffy. (Pats Spike on the shoulder)
Or maybe you could fight him. SPIKE: Yeah, I could do that, but
I'm paralyzed with not caring very much. OLAF: (pointing at Spike)
You there! (walks up to Spike and Xander) Do you know where there
are babies? SPIKE: (to Xander) What do you think, the hospital?
XANDER: What? Shut up! (to Olaf) Um ... listen... OLAF: I find
myself very hungry. And when I'm hungry I grow short of patience.
XANDER: Well, we can take care of the hungry, so how's about you
just sit down in one of the ... sturdier chairs, and we can ...
have a calm talk and something to eat. OLAF: Can it be babies?
XANDER: Well, not so much. OLAF: (disappointed) Oh. XANDER: But
maybe ... some roast pigs, and ... stags, and ... much hearty
grog. (grins nervously) SPIKE: They've got this onion thing...
OLAF: You cannot appease me! Do not try! (turns away) More ale!
......
Anya and Willow look over at where Olaf is draining the second
keg. WILLOW: I wish Buffy was here. The door opens again and Buffy
runs in, followed by Tara. BUFFY: I'm here. Willow looks surprised.
WILLOW: I wish I had a million dollars. (The others look at her)
Just checking. BUFFY: (looks at Olaf) What's going on? Where did
he come from?
......
OLAF: You ... told the witch to do that, Anyanka. (Anya looks
alarmed) You seem determined to put an end to all my fun. Just
like you always did when we were dating! Buffy, Tara, and Willow
stare at Anya. Spike stares at Anya. Xander frowns. ANYA: Uh,
um... XANDER: You dated him? BUFFY: You dated a troll? WILLOW:
And we're what, surprised by this? ANYA: Well, he wasn't a troll
then! You know, he was just a big dumb guy, and ... well, you
know, he cheated on me and I made him into a troll, which by the
way is... (embarrassed) how I got the ... job as a vengeance demon.
......
We see Spike crouching next to another injured woman. She has
blood on her face. Spike puts something under her head for support.
Buffy sees him and approaches. BUFFY: What are you doing? SPIKE:
Making this woman more comfortable. (looks up at Buffy) I'm not
sampling, I'll have you know. (looks around) Just look at all
these lovely blood-covered people. I could, but not a taste for
Spike, not a lick. Know you wouldn't like it. BUFFY: (amazed)
You want credit for not feeding on bleeding disaster victims?
SPIKE: Well, yeah. BUFFY: You're disgusting. (Walks away) Spike
looks after her in disbelief. SPIKE: (to himself) What's it take?
(sighs, continues helping the injured woman)
......
ANYA: Oh, and you don't want anyone else to have him. I know what
broke up him and Cordelia, you know. It was you! And your lips!
WILLOW: No it was not! Well, yes it was so, but ... that was a
long time ago. Do you think I'd do that again? ANYA: Why not?
WILLOW: Well, hello, gay now.
......
ANYA: How can I help? WILLOW: Uh, distract him from Buffy, (shot
of Buffy and Olaf grappling over the hammer again) uh, piss him
off. ANYA: I don't know how. WILLOW: Anya, I have faith in you.
There is no one you cannot piss off. Anya smiles proudly, rushes
out from behind the counter. Shot of Buffy and Olaf exchanging
blows. ANYA: Hey Olaf! You're as inadequate a troll as you were
a boyfriend! Olaf looks over at her with an angry grunt. Buffy
lands another blow. Anya looks back at Willow, who gives her the
thumbs-up. Anya looks back at Olaf. ANYA: Uh, y-you're hairy,
and unattractive, and even women trolls are put off by your various
odors. WILLOW: (muttering) Instrumentum ultionis, telum fabuloso,
surge, surge, terram pro voca. (translation: "Instrument
of revenge, fabled weapon, arise, arise," ??) Olaf's hammer
glows green for a moment. He lifts Buffy by the throat. ANYA:
Your menacing stance is merely alarming! Olaf hits Buffy in the
upper arm with his hammer and flings her aside to land against
a wall. ANYA: And your roar is less than full-throated! OLAF:
Desist! (stomps toward Anya) My god, woman, it's been a thousand
years, and yet you are as aggravating and emasculating as ever
you were. He swings the hammer at Anya. She ducks. WILLOW: Vola
cum viribus, dominum tuum nega. Vola! (translation: "I wish
with all men, that god will deny you.") Olaf's hammer glows
green again and flies out of his hand as he tries to swing it
at Anya. It lands on the floor and stops glowing. Olaf stares
at his hands. Buffy gets up. Anya goes over to Willow. ANYA: Hey,
good job. WILLOW: You too, very irritating.
.......
Olaf dissolves into nothing and disappears. Willow smiles hugely.
Shot of Tara watching. BUFFY: (OS) Where did you send him? ANYA:
(OS) The land of the trolls. We see them all standing around in
the magic shop. ANYA: He'll like it there. Full of trolls. WILLOW:
It's hard to be precise, though. Alternate universes don't stay
put. Trying to send him to a specific place is sort of like ...
like ... trying to hit a ... puppy, by throwing a live bee at
it. (They all look at her) Which is a weird image, and you should
all just forget it. ANYA: It's possible that he's in the land
of perpetual Wednesday ... or the crazy melty land ... or, you
know, the world without shrimp. TARA: There's a world without
shrimp? (Willow looks at her) I'm allergic. WILLOW: He, he's probably
in troll land. BUFFY: I only care that he's not here, and I got
this nifty souvenir. She turns and puts Olaf's hammer on the countertop.
After a moment, the glass breaks and the hammer, plus everything
else on the counter, falls into the display case below with a
loud crashing noise. BUFFY: Oops. XANDER: The place is trashed
enough anyway.
.......
Cut to: Buffy and Giles sitting at the table in the Summers dining
room. GILES: I cringe to think what the place would have looked
like if I'd been away for longer than three days. BUFFY: Well,
maybe we would have had time to clean it up. You know, if Willow
used some magicks to help. GILES: Yes, 'cause nothing could possibly
go wrong with that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: 1st Anniversary Fun: Funniest BtVS/AtS Episode -- manzanita,
21:41:41 07/21/01 Sat
What about Band Candy? Snyder trying to do Kung Fu, Buffy driving,
Giles and Joyce, studying for the SATs while on patrole . . .
Buffy's look when Joyce offers her manacles to restrain Ethan:
"Never tell me!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> well, one of the funniest moments, anyway... -- anom, 13:07:34
07/22/01 Sun
..if not the funniest show overall, was at the very end of Fear,
Itself. The gang is back at Giles' place after it's all over...apparently.
But then, over ominous music, Giles says:
I should have translated the Gaelic inscription under the illustration
of Gachnar.
Buffy: What's it say?
Giles: "Actual size."
Buffy's dismissive smile, shrug, & tilt of the head are perfect.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> It's just a visual... -- Solitude1056, 21:35:35 07/22/01
Sun
The single highpoint for Giles in S4, IMO, was when he & Spike
were rushing to catch Ethan. Suddenly, Giles spies Maggie Walsh
walking down the street. He commands Spike to stop the car, at
which point he jumps out & chases Maggie down the street. She
screams like, well, a girl, and runs off. Giles returns, a very
satisfied smirk upon his demony face. Truly an image that had
me laughing so hard I fell off the sofa. I kid you not - it was
a long time coming for poor Giles, who was so beset & left-behind
that season.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Yup, one of my favorite moments in the show........
-- Rufus, 23:17:00 07/22/01 Sun
I also enjoyed the fact that he chased that "fishwife"
then got back into the car like he had dropped off some drycleaning.....:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Anya & Spike -- Solitude1056, 07:58:44 07/23/01 Mon
Been trying to find it, and finally did... Where the Wild Things
Are. Anya's out alone after an argument with Xander, when all
of a sudden...
A FIGURE leaps out from the shadows, GROWLING. Anya SCREAMS. It's
SPIKE, in full VAMP-FACE. Mid-snarl, he recognizes Anya and slumps,
disappointed.
SPIKE Oh. It's you.
He MORPHS OUT OF VAMP-FACE.
ANYA Spike. What are you doing? You made me yell really high.
SPIKE (encouraged) Hey, yeah. I did. I scared you. Give me money.
ANYA I'm not paying you for scaring me.
SPIKE You're not "paying" me. I'm robbing you.
ANYA Oh. Well that's just ludicrous. You can't hurt me because
you've got a chip in your brain. Also, I like my money the way
it is when it's mine.
She moves to push past him but he blocks her, GROWLING.
ANYA (cont'd) Now come on. You're not even bumpy anymore.
Spike feels his face.
SPIKE Oh. I was, just a minute ago. Hang on, get me mad again.
Anya glares at him.
ANYA Does that really work? Scaring people into giving you their
money?
SPIKE Yeah, it works! Keeps me in blood and beers. Plus, you know,
funny. Watching the little humans quail.
ANYA I'm beginning to understand why you're so friendless.
SPIKE Look who's talking! I don't see droopy-boy on yer arm. Did
he have better things to do?
A
friendly contest involving S6 speculation.... -- voyageofbeagle,
19:31:26 07/23/01 Mon
Speculation about Season 6 is kicking in hard, spoilers are popping
up, there's no new episodes for a good 2.5 months, and it's hot
as hell here in the heartland. Anyone interested in a friendly
contest involving S6?
Here's what I propose. Everyone who is interested could name,
say, 5 things that they think are going to happen next season.
For instance, your list could be:
Xander develops a "super power" Giles gets a love interest
Buffy remains single throughout the season Tara & Willow break
up Dawn indulges in delinquent behavior
And so on.
Against the rules would be picking things that have already happened
(Anya refers to her & Xander's sex life, Giles nervously sputters,
Spike is in love with Buffy, Buffy kills a demon, Tara and Willow
cuddle and act cute).
We could post them the Ex. Scoobies site, and at the end of Season
6, bow down and praise those with the most correct calls.
Anyone interested?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> My answers (speculation & a bit of spoilerish info- read
at your own risk if you're spoiler-free.) -- Wiccagrrl, 20:19:47
07/23/01 Mon
Humm...ok, here goes...
Buffy will realize she does have some feelings for Xander, causing
some "my best friends wedding"- like issues with regards
to the X/A wedding.
Amy will be deratted and will team up with Willow in the "darkest
magicks" department.
Tension/fight/possible *short-term* breakup between W/T. (Probably
regarding Wills use of magic) But, we'll get very clearly implied
(if not an actual bedroom scene) make-up sex when they do patch
things up.
Custody fight over Dawn with either Child Protective Services
or Hank.
Giles will still be an active pressence in the Scooby Gang. He'll
be going back to England (at least for a while) but he'll return
to Sunnydale when needed and to keep tabs on the gang. Also, if-and-when
X/A get married, I'm guessing Giles gives the bride away and Willow
for best man.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> My speculations -- spoiler free -- d'Herblay, 21:23:56 07/23/01
Mon
Here fortune seems to favor the timid. So I offer two sets:
A)Plausible predictions 1. Xander gets cold feet 2. Anya replaces
Willow as go-to gal on the computer 3. Dawn commandeers Spike's
coat, looks cute as a bug 4. Ethan Rayne returns 5. Dawn has her
first kiss -- and no one turns evil!
B)Wild speculation 1. Tara shows up for her first day of Victorian
Literature only to meet Professor Spike! 2. Riley, infected with
an evil brain fungus, returns to take revenge on the one who took
Buffy from him -- Dawn! 3. Spike trades information on Angel to
Wolfram & Hart in exchange for legal documentation proving he
is the first cousin of the Summers girls, thus enabling him to
become Dawn's legal guardian! 4. Someone of Hispanic descent moves
to Sunnydale! 5. Joss writes and directs an episode that's nothing
but Kabuki!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Professor Spike!! Hee-hee-hee! -- Marie, 03:36:38
07/24/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: My speculations -- spoiler free -- OnM, 08:17:52
07/24/01 Tue
To my knowledge, Spike has never told anyone, even Buffy, that
the coat is a trophy from a Slayer that he killed. I wonder about
his reaction if he found Dawn wearing it?
My guess is that he would be appalled, and after pulling the coat
off of her, he would finally confess as to what it represents.
(Dawn is shocked, but now understands why he is so upset that
she was wearing it).
The question then is, does he destroy the coat, put it away but
not wear it, or continue to wear it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation.... -- Liquidram,
23:35:26 07/23/01 Mon
1. After healing/drinking/feeling so sorry for himself (can't
be bad; unsuccessful at being good) Spike gets a good talking-to
from Willow or Tara, recovers and takes over patrolling with the
occasional Scoobie.
2. Giles/Whomever is given temporary guardianship of Dawn allowing
her to stay in her house with Xander & Anya moving in (and possibly
Spike) while the search for Hank is on. Spike also begans to train
her in self-defense. Giles eventually moves back to Sunnydale
fulltime when his series is cancelled.
3. The X/A wedding never happens, but not because of Xander. Anya
finds herself attracted physically to another male (regular character
(God NO) or someone new... maybe Magic Box customer) and begins
to question whether she wants to settle down in the only relationship
she has ever had since becoming human. She goes bye-bye to find
herself and Xander is so broken up, he goes ...
4. Commando, patrolling with Spike and killing with a vengence
until ...
5. Willow starts to spend more time with him comforting him as
very close friends do which causes some jealousy rifts in her
and Tara's relationship. Rifts which may not be healed in time
to keep Willow on the lighter side of magic. Tara may disappear
from the scene. Hopefully not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation.... -- Marie,
03:50:07 07/24/01 Tue
1. Agree, Amy finally gets de-ratted, gets mad after being arrested
for public indecency and sues Willow for Wiccan Malpractice.
2. Anya and Xander's wedding does go ahead, but only after some
serious disagreements caused by Willow's re-surfacing jealousy,
which in turn causes a rift with Tara, who shows she does have
a temper after all with some serious mojo of her own.
3. Spike moves into the Summers' basement, and is the first to
see the returned Buffy.
4. Buffy and Spike share some serious kisses, but she is reluctant
to take it further because of her doubts about him, causing rows
and disturbances among all the Gang.
5. Dawn still has a crush on Spike, and is peeved that Buffy rejects
him. She meets a 'bad boy' in school and starts cutting classes
and staying out late, but Spike sorts her out with some straight
Spike-talk.
6. Giles meets an old flame in Britain, and decides, reluctantly,
that he wants to stay there and start a family.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Wiccan Malpractice! ROFL! -- Solitude1056, 08:00:55
07/24/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation....
-- OnM, 08:23:16 07/24/01 Tue
I like #3, esp. if Buffy does return 'spontaneously' rather than
being 'conjured' in some manner.
For some reason it just makes sense to me that Spike would move
into the Summer's basement, dunno why. Interesting...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Hmm... do the Summers get cable? -- Solitude1056,
08:54:26 07/24/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Spike in Buffy's basement -- mundusmundi,
13:08:49 07/24/01 Tue
Then he really would be beneath her! (Though it would be a step
up from the doghouse.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation.... -- Malandanza,
07:42:38 07/24/01 Tue
1. Amy's return results in Willow spending quality time with her
old friend engaging in magical pursuits of dubious morality. Tara
becomes jealous and worried, while Willow belittles her concerns
and stresses that Amy is just an old friend -- strife builds between
the couple and reaches a crisis point toward the end of the season
with a break-up followed by attempted suicide by Tara.
2. A minor spell is involved in keeping Dawn with the Scoobies
-- clouding the minds of the Child Protective Services social
workers. I do not think that the Buffybot would be able to retain
custody -- remember that Dawn's councillor/principal told Buffy
that she would lose custody if Dawn missed any more school --
just before the ill-fated road trip.
3. The X/A wedding almost ends disastrously (interfering friends,
Anya's concerns about the cost, etc.)-- then a sudden reconciliation
results in an elopement and marriage at a Justice of the Peace
without any of their friends present (especially not Willow --
who is not happy with the wedding).
4. With Buffy dead, the Watchers Council reneges on its agreements
with Giles -- he will not receive any back pay (and has not yet
received any due to red tape), he is kicked off the Council again
and forced to return to England.
5. Spike finds a Buffy look-a-like to console himself and (as
usual) treats her very badly. When Buffy returns, she is more
spiritual and less emotional -- she is able to see Spike's sick
obsession for her as what it is. There will be no Spike/Buffy
romance. Instead, Buffy begins dating Jonathan.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation....
-- OnM, 08:07:22 07/24/01 Tue
I really like #1-- this is the best reasoning I've heard yet about
how friction could grow between Willow and Tara. I don't agree
with the suicide though, it strikes me as out of character for
someone who would have the bones in her hand pulverized and subsequently
be brain-sucked to protect her friends. A person with that kind
of inner strength and resilence is unlikely to commit suicide,
no matter how emotionally damaged.
The others are interesting. I disagree with #5, although I don't
see a B/S ship either. I think the relationship they established
in 'The Gift' is exactly the way it will stay-- she grants him
a certain measure of respect and comradeship, he accepts that
she doesn't love him:
"I know that I'm a monster. I know that you don't love me.
But you treat me like a man..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation....
-- Wiccagrrl, 08:53:37 07/24/01 Tue
I agree- a suicide attempt by Tara seems way out of character.
The girl's been through a lot in her life, and made it through
more or less intact. She's a survivor.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation....
-- Malandanza, 09:52:18 07/24/01 Tue
"I agree- a suicide attempt by Tara seems way out of character.
The girl's been through a lot in her life, and made it through
more or less intact. She's a survivor."
I think you are underestimating the depth of Tara's emotional
attachment to Willow. Although Tara is a woman of few words, she
has had some of the most powerful, if understated, lines regarding
her devotion to Willow. Tara's world is entirely Willow-centric.
What happens after a break-up? Remember in "Lovers Walk"
that Willow and Xander got custody of their mutual friends --
Oz and Cordelia got left out. Oz had his musician friends to fall
back on and Cordelia had her inner bitca to pull her through,
but does Tara even know anyone outside of the Scoobies? Here's
a scene from "Family" where her brother comments on
Tara's socializing skills (from the shooting script):
DONNY: What, alla you hang out? (to Tara, playfully) That's more
people than you MET in high school. (to the others) Tara wasn't
too social back when. I don't think she spoke till she was eight
--
Tara doesn't have anyone in her life but Willow -- she has burned
some bridges with her family (to be with Willow). Would she even
have a place to stay? Can you imagine her getting a job as a waitress
(like Buffy did in "Anne") to support herself? What
about lingering effects from the Glory induced insanity?
I also do not see Tara as a particularly stong character. Her
relationships with her family, with Willow and with her friends
have been unequal at best. She is meek and accpeting. She is easily
bullied (her father, the Wiccans, Faith as Buffy, Willow). In
"Family," It is Buffy who lends Tara the strength to
stay in Sunnydale -- in most other cases, Tara draws her strength
from Willow (even her magic is stronger when they are together).
I see Tara's willingness to die by Glory's hand as one part resignation
and three parts sacrifice for Willow's sake (i.e., not to save
Dawn for Dawn or Buffy's sake, but to save Dawn because Willow
would want that). I have no trouble imagining that a woman willing
to face annihilation for Willow's sake would not want to live
without her. Any break-up will leave Tara alone, bereft of any
human comforts. In the face of such emotional devastation, I do
not think suicide is beyond question.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: A friendly contest involving
S6 speculation.... -- Wiccagrrl, 18:38:55 07/24/01 Tue
Well, I get what you're saying, but, as much as I happen to be
a W/T shipper, I still don't see Tara attempting suicide. I don't
underestimate Tara's devotion to Willow, but I do think she has
a strong moral compass/inner strength that is there regardless
of Willow. Also, depending on how things went down with whatever
a potential fight/breakup would be, it actually isn't out of the
question that Willow could find herself isolated and that the
Scoobs wouldn't necessarilly turn their backs on Tara. A lot would
depend on the circumstances, but a suicidal Tara just doesn't
fit for me.
I also disagree that standing up to Glory was completely, or even
mostly, Willow-centric. I think she genuinely cares for Dawn,
and more importantly knew that Glory getting Dawn could spell
the end of the world. She was doing what she felt was right- it
happened to be in line with what Willow would want, so there wasn't
that conflict. I guess we'll see what Tara's really made of when/if
what she feels is right/necessary comes into direct conflict with
what Willow wants/needs. (Which I think will be a much bigger
internal conflict for her in some ways than her own well being.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation....
-- Cynthia, 16:21:13 07/24/01 Tue
1. Xander and Willow spend a passionate night together out of
their grief for Buffy, Xander feel guilt, Willow gets pregant
(or at least has a scare).
2. After Buffy comes back, Buffy no longer sees Spike as a "monster"
and Spike no longer (as least for a while)acts like one. Buffy
sees more of the "William" side of Spike. Spike gets
to see more of Buffy's "softer" side. Exposing the sides
of themselves that they have kept from each other (getting "out
of the box") they are becoming more and more attracted to
each other when...
3. Somewhere along the line, Spike finds out that Buffy's in terrible
danger (actually, when is she not? LOL) from an evil from which
there is no escape. To rescue her, he commits a dangerous, almost
lethal act that is seen by all others as a betrayal. And Spike
is not able to explain his actions until the danger has passed.
By then, no one believes him (well at least until season 7).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> You're psychic... -- rowan, 18:35:24 07/24/01
Tue
Cynthia:
I totally agree with you about #3. There will be something that
seems like Spike betrayal, but is really Spike trying to protect
Buffy or someone in the SG. Dawn may be the only one to believe
Spike. He will sacrifice his improved reputation for the SG in
order to do the "right thing" and protect whoever it
is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation.... -- dream
of the consortium, 08:50:51 07/24/01 Tue
A. gets pregnant, and consequently gets most of the funniest lines
next season. Joss gets to take on yet another of the great "series-killing"
cliches and deal with the classic scenario of the high school
group of friends who follow very different paths, some onto college
and some immediately into family life. Xander and Anya have to
grow up fast. Xander decides to resign from the frontlines of
the demon battles. The demons of course have other ideas.
Willow is approached by a Council of Witches or something like
that - the one she should have registered with? They come requesting
her leadership, full of prophecies about a great witch. Tara is
not invited to join and is mightily peeved by Willow's "more-powerful-than-thou"
attitude. The prophecies convince her she is supposed to raise
Buffy from the dead, and she does so, only to find that this was
part of some elaborate plot that was NOT for the benefit of the
good. (Prophecies and Councils are tricky things.)
Giles starts spending more time in England as the results of a
wild romance kindled while on a demon research trip to someplace
exotic and hot. He takes the trip to help with the grieving process
and falls in love madly with someone gorgeous and brilliant, who
worships him. Giles deserves this.
Dawn tries to be Buffy, learning martial arts, trying to patrol,
etc. She puts herself and her friends in danger a little too often
as a result. Ultimately, she learns that the Key has a different
destiny. (Okay, so that's a cheat, because I haven't even a guess
what that destiny is.)
Spike and Amy, de-ratted and fairly powerful (after all, she was
powerful enough to begin with, and she's been watching Willow
for a long time) take over patrolling, as Buffy in her new, post-rebirth
state has bigger things to do than nightly vamp clean-up. What
those bigger things are, again, I don't know, but will set the
stage for a final, eternal closure of the hell-mouth in season
seven.
If even one of these actually happens, I expect a Californian
snowfall during a total solar eclipse at the next graduation I
attend.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation.... -- MPN,
08:57:00 07/24/01 Tue
'kay, here goes nothing:
1)A powerful demon bent on making Anya pay for her past crimes
as a vengeance demon reveals her sordid past to Xander, forcing
him to reconsider his relationship with her.
2)Ethan returns for revenge by casting a powerful spell that turns
Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Anya into children. Spike is forced
to play babysitter as Giles and Tara try to find a spell to undo
it. Hilarity ensues.
3) Dawn finds Spike's cigarettes lying around and is caught smoking
one. Spike and Buffy argue over how to punish her, leading Buffy
to realize just how much Spike cares about her sister and bringing
the two of them closer together.
4) The season's big bad acts under the pretense of being a good
guy so as to earn Buffy and the Scoobies' trust before betraying
them.
5) Dawn remains terrified of the destructive power within her
and tries to find a spell that will separate her human form from
the power of the key forever.
-Thanks
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation....
-- Nina, 09:40:09 07/24/01 Tue
1- I think that during the summer we will learn that Willow has
been trying to derat Amy (because she feels guilty about Buffy
and wants to save someone else). There will be a parallel between
Amy and Buffy's return and the two will bond.
2- Dawn will continue to steal little obects until she is caught.
Buffy will ask Spike to back off a little from his relationship
with Dawn because she thinks he is responsible for her behavior.
3- Witches will come to town (they may be the big bad too) and
magic in general will become even more important (maybe more than
slaying).
4- Spike around the end of February sweeps will be able to bite
again and the chip will go bye-bye!
5- Buffy will work full time and will be paid for it.
Not very original... but I believe some of them are very possible!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: These are great! -- voyageofbeagle, 10:19:50 07/24/01
Tue
I'm keeping track of everyone's guesses. Time to add my own to
the mix:
-A love interest for Giles (who we will meet on the show) will
be one his main reasons for a return to England
- Tara & Willow will break up over Willow's mis-use of power,
but will get back together
- The Big Bad will be a human who can control an army of demons
- Dawn will have a mini-arc as a juvenile delinquent
- Finally (this is the biggest stretch) it will be revealed that
Spike (unknowingly) was also used in the creation of the Key,
and is, technically Dawn's father (clearing the way for some grumbling
on his part that he has a kid with Buffy and didn't get to do
any of the "fun stuff"!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation.... -- vampire
hunter D, 10:24:00 07/24/01 Tue
1)Dawn's rebellious streak continues 2) Spike watches over Dawn,
maybe even coming to her rescue after some rebellious act puts
her in serious danger 3)more fights between Tara and Willow. A
break up is a possability, but hopefully won't last long. 4)Chaos
ensues at Xander's bachelor party. (hey, wouldn't it be funny
to see Willow and/or Tara show up, but just to watch the stripper.)
Maybe the stripper turns out to be a demon or something. 5)Anya
gets pregnant. But don't expect an ex-demon to have a normal pregnancy.
6)More on the origins and history of both the Slayers and the
Key.
I've also had some ideas of stuff to happen, but that probably
only exist in my head (I know it's probably too late, but Joss,
if you're reading this, feel free to use these): A)Dawn's the
first gang memebr to see Buffy after her return, but unfortunately
Buffy's enrty interupts Dawn's first kiss (Buffy:"I'm sorry.
Did I interupt samething?) B)More on Tara's past. Like maybe a
visit by an exgirlfriend or something.
BTW, for this contest, specualtion on Amy's deratting should be
disqualified since Joss has said it definitly will happen. Also,
I noticed MPN's response, and #4 looks like an idea I posted a
while back, if anyone remembers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A friendly contest involving S6 speculation....
-- John Burwood, 11:57:14 07/24/01 Tue
My spec for S6 is that Buffy Mark 2 will fit the announced theme
of S6 & be much more adult. Joss said a season or two back that
his characters were getting more & more like the actors - eg Cordelia
nicer, Willow sexier,and Giles cooller. SMG has influenced her
character from day one by making TV Buffy much smarter than the
movie Buffy. If Buffy gets much more like SMG, adult, organized,
& workaholic - it would make sense of being Buffy but different.
And give new options. A more adult Buffy would not need Giles
much, a highly organized Buffy might provoke Dawn into rebellion,
a workaholic Buffy might have less time for her friends who remain
less adult causing rifts. Odds on I am wrong, but IMO it has possibilities.
Anyone agree or disagree?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I give up!!!! (spoilers) -- Nina, 13:40:50 07/24/01
Tue
"BTW, for this contest, specualtion on Amy's deratting should
be disqualified since Joss has said it definitly will happen."
Sigh!!!!!! I thought a speculation thread wouldn't be a threat
to staying unspoiled... but I give up! I guess I was playing with
the fire here! I'll stick to the 1st anniversary thread!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Oh, I'm sorry! -- vampire hunter D, 14:02:31
07/24/01 Tue
Sorry, I wasn't thinking. I'll try nor to do it again.
btw, EC's gonna spend time as Anyanka the vengence demon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: I give up!!!! (spoilers) -- Wiccagrrl, 18:47:55
07/24/01 Tue
Sorry you got spoiled. To be fair, though, for those of us who
are spoiler hos, when asked to speculate on what's gonna happen,
it's tough not to deal with some of the tidbits we've heard. I
did label mine, though ;)
Also, someone mentioned that spoilerish tidbits perhaps should
be disqualified. Well, if you only deal with the spoiler then
that's true. But if you speculate on the hows or what that event
may lead to, then I think it's legit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> spex 'n' stuff -- mundusmundi, 13:49:10 07/24/01 Tue
1. The season premiere will be titled Remembrance (vy? vy not?)
and will have 2-3 flashbacks interspersed throughout the episode,
a la Becoming Part I, that will show the events of the SG shortly
after Buffy's plunge in The Gift. Should any of this Buffybot
stuff actually prove true, this will hopefully lend some clarity
to the Scoobs' decisions following the tragedy (e.g., what to
do with the body, etc.)
2. Xander and Anya's wedding will occur offscreen, so that Joss
can subvert yet another staple TV cliche. The hijinks will follow
afterward, when their reception is crashed by her angry demon
ex-lovers.
3. Dawn will get a real boyfriend, somebody close to her age and
who has a pulse.
4. Tara will stake her first vamp (she hasn't yet, has she?).
This will be Harmony, who attacks Willow after Wil concocts a
spell that makes her temporarily lose her witchy powers.
5. The Buffybot will find the Blue Fairy, make a wish, and become
a real girl.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: spex 'n' stuff -- anom, 18:57:36 07/24/01 Tue
"Xander and Anya's wedding will occur offscreen, so that
Joss can subvert yet another staple TV cliche. The hijinks will
follow afterward, when their reception is crashed by her angry
demon ex-lovers."
I was about to say "and what about *his* angry demon ex-lovers?"--after
all, not for nothing did Willow say he was a demon magnet--but
then I realized they're all dead. So between his demon ex-lovers
& his ex-demon lover, now mortal, I guess that means all the demons
he's been involved with are...Shanshu!
PS: would Cordelia come back to town for the wedding? would they
invite her?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> None of them have met the new, improved Cordy...
-- Wisewoman, 19:55:32 07/24/01 Tue
She and Xander had a pretty painful break-up, and even though
he paid off her prom dress, I don't think she's likely to be invited
to the wedding...to say nothing of the "no crossover"
state of affairs.
And, if Cordy was invited to Xander's wedding, I don't think she'd
go...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Here are my crazy guesses -- rowan, 18:31:56 07/24/01 Tue
Okay, here are my 13 points of speculation for S6:
1. Xander and Anya do marry, but not on the originally planned
date.
2. Buffy and Spike share a "real" (i.e. sexual) kiss.
3. Hank Summers does not appear and does not become Dawn's guardian.
4. Spike's chip stops functioning. He and Dawn hide the truth
for a period of time from the other Scoobies.
5. Willow and Tara do not break up.
6. The BuffyBot does not reappear.
7. Amy is not de-ratted.
8. Willow's magick harms someone innocent.
9. Spike finally does "something heroic" and saves Dawn
from physical harm.
10. Buffy & Spike do not have sex.
11. Dawn begins to manifest slayer traits (strength, agility,
accelerated healing).
12. Spike backslides and feeds from someone, although he does
not kill anyone.
13. Buffy is not resurrected by Willow; although it may initially
appear this way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Okay, now if I could only follow rules (here is my
final cut of 5) -- rowan, 18:41:56 07/24/01 Tue
Okay, if I'm limited to five, here they are (cross-referenced
to post above):
1. Hank Summers does not appear and does not become Dawn's guardian
(#3).
2. Spike's chip stops functioning. He and Dawn hide the truth
for a period of time from the other Scoobies (#4).
3. Dawn begins to manifest slayer traits (strength, agility, accelerated
healing) (#11).
4. Buffy is not resurrected by Willow; although it may initially
appear this way (#13).
5. Willow's magick harms someone innocent (#8).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st Anniversary Character Posting Party Update -- rowan, 16:40:31
07/23/01 Mon
There is still more fun to come!
Schedule:
07/26/01 Faith Brian
08/02/01 Dawn mundusmundi
08/09/01 Buffy Nina
08/16/01 Anya Wisewoman
08/23/01 Cordelia Solitude1056 08/23/01 Wesley Sam Gamgee
08/30/01 Xander Lurker Becoming Restless
09/06/01 Oz Sssaaammm
09/13/01 Darla Slayrunt 09/13/01 Lindsay Liquidram
09/20/01 The Host verdantheart
09/27/01 Joyce Shawn 09/27/01 The Mayor d'Herblay
10/04/01 Doyle Liquidram
Still Not Spoken For:
Gunn Kate Villains (The Master, The Annointed One, Adam, etc.)
Minor or recurring characters (Jonathan, Amy, etc.)
Guidelines:
1. One thread per character please, so that we can keep our great
thoughts in one place and reduce board traffic.
2. rowan is the coordinator of the event.
3. Originators of a character thread are selected based on who
volunteers first by e-mail or post to rowan (with all attempts
to resolve conflicts peaceably).
4. A thread can address any aspect of the character that you find
informative, illustrative, illuminating, invigorating, and/or
irritating. Analysis based on sound research into eps and shooting
scripts preferred.
5. One character thread will be posted per week, to stretch the
chewy philosophical goodness as far as possible. rowan will publish
a schedule periodically so we all know what's going on.
6. The naming convention for posts is: Character Name: 1st Anniversary
Character Posting Party.
7. Masq will immortalize your posts on the website for posterity's
enjoyment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Last Posts: Spike in Archive 1, Drusilla in Archive 2 --
rowan, 16:41:35 07/23/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Next up: Faith by Brian on 7/26 -- rowan, 16:43:58 07/23/01
Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Counting Down From 66.6 -- Thanks! -- d'Herblay, 17:22:27
07/23/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party Update -- Nina,
19:09:45 07/23/01 Mon
Rowan, I just wanted to let you know that I seem to have a lot
of trouble with my Word program. I can't type my Buffy thread
without causing my computer to freeze. So if I find out that I
am still unable to use the program in a week I'll ask a delay
until I can fix the problem. All right with you? :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party Update
-- Wisewoman, 19:44:09 07/23/01 Mon
I'm pretty sure I'll be done with Anya by then. I don't mind moving
up a week if Nina's got computer trouble. Just let me know.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party
Update -- rowan, 20:19:43 07/23/01 Mon
That would be great!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party Update
-- rowan, 20:18:22 07/23/01 Mon
No problem. Although we may send some of the Existential Scoobies
into some sort of fit if they have to wait for Buffy (only kidding!).
Do you think the Powers that Be are at work here?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Hey, if we can wait until OCTOBER for new eps,
we can wait another week for the Buffy Post! :) -- Humanitas,
20:30:26 07/23/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Hey, if we can wait until OCTOBER
for new eps, we can wait another week for the Buffy Post! :) --
Nina, 09:16:18 07/24/01 Tue
That little problem I have really bugs me! Thanks Wisewoman if
it's okay for you to switch. :) I'll keep you inform!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Too true! -- rowan, 18:11:24 07/24/01
Tue
Isn't it amazing that the reason there was a late start last year
(for network programming; not BtVS) was because of the Olympics
(which were being held in Australia and therefore occurring during
the Northern Hemisphere's fall) and the networks desire to avoid
putting new programming up against the coverage. Now, what's the
excuse for this year? Or have we automatically now moved to October
for the start of each new season of programming?
The moral/ethical
dilemma of the Buffybot (*S6 spoiler/spec*) -- OnM, 07:46:34 07/24/01
Tue
The idea for this question originally came from a post that The
Godfather made over at the Cross & Stake last week. I thought
it was a wonderful question, and asked Shawn to consider posting
it over here at ATPo for us to chew on.
Either my response was missed, or the GF was busy on other projects,
or whatever, but I'd like to post this topic.
In the movie A.I., we have seen yet another take on the questions
of whether or not to treat an artificial lifeform in such a way
that renders it certain basic 'human' rights. How would you think
this would apply to the Buffybot, if the 'bot exhibited characteristics
that suggested sentience? You will recall that Buffy treated April
in a human-like manner, so Joss is obviously aware of this conundrum,
and through Buffy, perhaps already commented on it.
A respondent to GF's original post stated that it all comes down
to sentience-- i.e., self-awareness in the organism in question--
and I agree.
Let's assume for the moment that Joss does elect to bring the
Buffybot into the story in the early parts of S6. Do you think
the A.I. theme will become an issue? If so, how? If the 'bot begins
to exhibit signs of sentience, do the Scoobies thereafter have
any right to terminate it's existence? ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> clarifications on the bots -- Solitude1056, 07:57:15 07/24/01
Tue
April seemed to be aware that she wasn't entirely human, and that
there was something different about her. I don't know if it was
ever stated outright, but I got the impression she was aware she
was created specifically for Warren and only Warren, and her sole
purpose was to love him. The Buffybot, on the other hand, was
unconvinced when Buffy called her a robot. "Oh, I don't think
I'm a robot," I believe she said - and here I was thinking
SMG couldn't get more perky. Yikes. But my point is that the two
bots we've seen so far don't seem to be the best comparison, because
their creators had different purposes. Warren didn't care if April
knew she existed only for certain things, since he wasn't trying
to duplicate a "real" person. Spike, on the other hand...
And I put "terminating a bot's existence" in the same
category with "killing a vampire" - because first you
have to peel off the 15 feet of emotional turmoil and trauma that
results from seeing a loved one's face after that person has died.
Whether they're faked as a bot, or faked by a demon, it's the
same: the person is dead, but the attachment to the original can
be a strong motivation for not getting rid of the replacement.
So first, ya gotta get rid of the baggage around bot-issues. That
was a lot easier to do while Buffy was still alive & the bot wasn't
the only chance anyone was gonna get to hear her voice again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: clarifications on the bots -- anom, 12:05:58 07/24/01
Tue
"The Buffybot, on the other hand, was unconvinced when Buffy
called her a robot. "Oh, I don't think I'm a robot,"
I believe she said...."
Yeah, she did, but it seemed jarring to me--didn't jibe w/her
asking Spike earlier if he wanted her to "start this program
over." Which itself was a little strange, since I wouldn't
have expected her to ask that unless something was going wrong
w/the, ahem, "scenario." Anyway, there seems to be evidence
on both sides. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: clarifications on the bots -- verdantheart,
06:46:12 07/25/01 Wed
That assumes that the Buffybot is aware the the "start the
program over" bit is not natural for humans. My impression
is that the Buffybot, while having AI, has limited awareness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: clarifications on the bots -- Solitude1056,
08:30:14 07/25/01 Wed
Actually, I took that as the bot version (IOW, the awkward stitled
version) of saying, "hey, wanna do that again?" Which
is a very human thing to ask, when teasing a lover after tussling.
It's simply that the Bot wasn't completely programmed given her
ability to "learn," so telling her beforehand the precise
phrasing isn't likely. Instead, I figured she was programmed to
ask whether a lover wanted to do whatever, again, just as much
as she was given the basic information about each friend but not
too many details about how to work this information into a conversation,
if at all. "You're my friend. And you're recently gay."
(But I'll always love the Bot saying to Anya, "Anya! How
is your money?" It was the first time I think anything remotely
resembling Buffy really connected with Anya. A bit sad that it
took the bot to do it.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Another Buffybot issue -- Kerri, 08:41:35 07/24/01 Tue
There has been spoilers about the buffybot being kept in sunnydale
after Buffy's death. Now even if she could be programmed to have
Buffy's characteristics is it right to keep her around? I think
in a way it dishonors Buffy's memory. I also don't know how Dawn
could stand to live with a replica of her dead sister. I just
hope that we saw the last of the Buffybot when Glory kicked off
her head in the Gift. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Two points I've been pondering... (Spoilery) -- Wisewoman,
09:32:21 07/24/01 Tue
1. If the bot is still around in Season 6, there's the possibility
that it will "develop" some sort of sentience. I'm reminded
of the episode of ST:TNG, fairly early in the series, when Data
had to defend his existence before a military tribunal that (I
think) wanted to deactivate him. Picard was able to prove to them
that, as a sentient being, Data had the right to "life."
2. Lotta talk on the 'net these days (sites like Principial Cybernetica)
on the concept of uploading, or virtual immortality, that would
allow humans to upload their memories, personalities, thought
processes, etc., into a computer and, in effect, become immortal.
If Buffy's soul/spirit/id/whatever is trapped in the interdimensional
portal, then there's at least a chance that it could be salvaged
and placed inside the Buffybot, thereby fulfilling all the various
hints Joss has given us: SMG will be back; Buffy is dead; Buffy
is rotting in her grave; Buffy will be back, but different. However,
in this case there'd have to be some re-engineering to get the
bot up to Slayer standard--she obviously wasn't as strong as the
real thing in the fight with Glory. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> uploading Buffy? (spoilery) -- mundusmundi, 10:32:02
07/24/01 Tue
2. Lotta talk on the 'net these days (sites like Principial Cybernetica)
on the concept of uploading, or virtual immortality, that would
allow humans to upload their memories, personalities, thought
processes, etc., into a computer and, in effect, become immortal.
If Buffy's soul/spirit/id/whatever is trapped in the interdimensional
portal, then there's at least a chance that it could be salvaged
and placed inside the Buffybot, thereby fulfilling all the various
hints Joss has given us: SMG will be back; Buffy is dead; Buffy
is rotting in her grave; Buffy will be back, but different. However,
in this case there'd have to be some re-engineering to get the
bot up to Slayer standard--she obviously wasn't as strong as the
real thing in the fight with Glory.
At AICN somebody claiming to be "in the know" in Hollywood
dissed the posted spoilers and hinted how Buffy will supposedly
come back..."Think Buffy v.2.0" he wrote. Didn't think
much of it until Joss's comment in a recent interview that Willow
would get back into computers this season. Hmmmm.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: uploading Buffy? (spoilery) -- vampire hunter
D, 13:14:22 07/24/01 Tue
wouldn't surprise me if this turned out to be the the theory that
is used. I thought the Buffybot was just a one-time gag for an
episode until they brought it back. So it's probable that they
already intended a greater purpose to the robot than we've already
seen. It would also explain why all the red herring spoilers we've
seen involve the robot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: uploading Buffy? (spoilery) -- Cynthia,
16:01:46 07/24/01 Tue
I don't like this idea.
One: We have seen how easily it was to damage the robot, how restricted
its energy resources are. What would be the point in restoring
Buffy's soul to something that was in it's own way so fragile?
Two: Buffy would detest it. Just the idea of a bot in her image
upset her. Imagine if she was stuck in it?
Three: What about the powers of a slayer. Would they continue
with a non-human form?
I think TPTB are going to somehow take the key out of Dawn and
use it to create a new body for Buffy's soul, essence (whatever).
Whether or not they key remains in the new body, well it could
go either way. One would get rid of the responsibility and dangers
that having the key brings. The other gives a slayer new and unique
abilities that would make her a "first of her kind".
Oh, Dawn would still exist, since she would have a soul and has
the right to exist and/or it's a reward to Dawn and Buffy for
what they had done. She just would no longer have the key inside
her. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Buffy becomes the key, hmmmm... -- Mike,
01:17:14 07/25/01 Wed
I like that. i have been pondering the long term future of the
show, and everything seems (apparently, therefore not definitely!)
to point to Dawn as the power of the key, being used to rid the
world of vampires for the next few hundred years.
If Buffy is made the key in the way you suggested, it would be
much more fitting for the central character of the show to BE
the power which ends the series once and for all... know what
I mean?
but i doubt it will happen, is just a nice thought is all! ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Puny Receptacle (Spoilage) -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
09:36:14 07/24/01 Tue
I think it could be an issue if they use the buffybot as a new
body for Buffy's soul (sorry, getting into reincarnation territory
here - if you don't want to go over this again, just ignore me).
This sounds crazy at first...unless you consider the symbolism
involved in Buffy's death and the robot.
When the buffybot first appeared, one of its functions (in a symbolic,
doppleganger kind of a way - not in a prurient, sex-toy kind of
a way) was to show that Buffy had become very cold and distant
to her friends since Joyce died - they couldn't tell the difference
between her and a robot. Later on, Buffy clearly got even worse
(catatonic in WOTW).
Now, it's often said that when somebody close to you dies, part
of you dies as well: maybe Buffy's death was symbolic of this
- it was an aspect of her that died (just don't ask me which one)
or something like that, anyway. Perhaps Buffy will begin to haunt
the Scoobies and they will realise that her soul is not at rest
as it should be - her journey (that some people have mentioned
below) isn't over. They will restore her but her body will be
rotting underground so they will put her soul into the buffybot.
God knows how things would progress from there.
Anyway, that is one way they could bring in the theme you were
referring to - not that I think for a minute that it will actually
happen.
On second thoughts, that sounds pretty stupid. Oh, well, we can
but try... ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I think we were busy posting similar thoughts at the
same time! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 09:45:24 07/24/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Yeah - hey, good idea! -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
09:49:22 07/24/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Robots, a reflection of man? -- Rufus, 13:47:16 07/24/01
Tue
The Buffybot sure brought up much strife when it was first introduced
as an idea. I took the tone of IWMTLY as a hint of what was to
come in Intervention. April was made to love, unconditionally,
make Warren happy. As she was rather predictable Warren didn't
destroy her, he deserted her. When Buffy first considered the
bot she was afraid it could hurt someone. She then became more
angry at Warren for leaving April alone to "die". That
emotion from Buffy was facinating. We know the bot wasn't "real"
it only looked like a reflection of man, but Buffy treated April
in a kind way. They may have fought but the bot only fought to
protect what was hers. When Buffy and Warren were searching for
April, he mentioned that if he called her name it caused a feedback,
or like Buffy called it, pain. Who was the monster in the situation,
the man who created a life sized toy out of lonliness, or April
who was only created to love only to be cast off for not being
real. The Buffybot was created to love Spike. All the special
skills and history were his to have programed in. He never got
the chance to reject the Buffybot but he appeared to treat her
better than Warren did April. The Buffybot wasn't aware she wasn't
real, she was only created to love. One thing, with her skills
she was able to leave the crypt and go to slay vampires. She was
capable of going beyond programing and do the job of the Slayer.
She wasn't real but I didn't see any of the SG treat her in a
cruel way. She looked too close to the real thing. Just as Buffy
sat with April to wait for her to "die", the Buffybot
was treated in a kind way. What had my attention was the fact
of Spike treating the reflection of Buffy in a tender way, never
having done that sort of thing for over a hundred years. Was it
better than the real thing, no, but Spike still treated the Buffybot
in a kind fashion. Both bots are not real but they are a reflection
of someones hopes for love, how they were treated was a reflection
of humanity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Yeah, sentience, that's the ticket.... -- rowan, 19:51:52
07/24/01 Tue
I would just chime in here to add that I agree that when we cross
the sentience line, we start dealing with an entity that must
be treated not as an object, but as an organism. It appeared to
me that both April and BuffyBot were capable of sense perception.
To treat April as Warren did (like a bicycle to be discarded when
he was tiring of riding) was in sharp, unfavorable contrast to
Buffy's compassion as she held her "death vigil" with
April. If the SG continues to utilize the BuffyBot (and really,
I hope they do not), there comes a point where I think the argument
should be made that she be treated like a sentient being and not
like a programmable robot/doll.
I'm very reminded of my reaction to AI. I distinctly remember
leaving the theatre thinking: 'Gigolo Joe and David are more real
than the humans in this movie.' I certainly felt April had more
value as a 'person' than Warren did, truth be told.
Remorse -- Kerri, 08:52:48 07/24/01 Tue
In looking at whether Spike is truly good one thing that makes
me lean towards no is the fact that he shows no remorse for all
the people he has killed. Angel doesn't just feel sorry, he is
constantly plagued by his actions when he didn't have his soul.
Spike doesn't have this. It is almost as though he lacks a conscience.
He is able to do good for the people he cares about; he even risks
his life for them. But is he truly good? To me a conscience is
more or less essential in being a good person. Spike does not
seem to care that he murdered so many people, and is still proud
of killing the slayers. I'm not certain whether Spike could have
this kind of remorse without a soul, but if he could then and
only then would I really believe he is good.
On the topic of remorse another character comes to mind: Anya.
Now I know she hasn't killed people the same way Spike and Angel
have, but she did hurt and maybe killed many men when she was
a demon. Eventhough Anya possesses a soul she seems to not even
care how many lives she ruined. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Remorse -- Earl Allison, 09:30:10 07/24/01 Tue
I suppose it depends on your definition of "good." I
agree with you, though, that Spike is a far cry from Angel, or
from anyone who has shown remorse, like Faith during her stint
in AtS. Spike may not be able to kill TODAY, but I see very little
that indicates that he wouldn't kill TOMORROW should the opportunity
present itself.
Personally, should Spike's chip ever fail, I wouldn't want to
be anywhere near him. The chip may prevent him from taking the
action of biting, but that's ALL it does -- in essence removing
his ability to do harm without impacting the inner desire. Angel
CAN bite and maim and kill, he simply chooses NOT to, and that
is the major difference between them. Spike can't act on his impulses
to do evil, wheras Angel can and makes a conscious decision NOT
to. He certainly drank from the girl at the Bronze that Dru killed
for him, and has yet to be remorseful over her, either. Until
I see Spike have the opportunity to kill or bite, to really WANT
TO, and choose not to, I can't see him as redeemed, or even starting
on that road.
Spike was more than willing to bite Willow soon after he was chipped,
despite talking to her -- indeed, he was even attempting to try
again.
Even so, his friendship with Buffy and the Scoobies doesn't really
prove anything. Vampires aren't mindless, ravenous beasts, we've
seen them work with and form allegiances with others. Dru and
Darla worked with Wolfram and Hart before turning on them and
Mr. Trick worked for the Mayor while he was still human. Spike
has merely accepted Buffy, Dawn and the others as friends and
comrades. There's still no indication he wouldn't bite someone
he didn't know if the opportunity arose, at least, not yet.
I think Spike KNOWS right from wrong, but unless it affects him
or those he cares about, he doesn't care. Like I said, even with
the chip deactivated, he might not bite Buffy or the Scoobies,
but I don't see him giving up human blood. The merest kernel of
a conscience might be there, but unless he develops it, shows
some remorse, he won't really change too much.
Anya is a more interesting case -- she seems sometimes to be so
far removed from humanity that she's almost incapable of remorse
only because she doesn't really understand what she did -- or
that she justifies it as fulfilling the wishes of others. She
enjoyed it, yes, but she was the proverbial bullet in the gun,
and the women who summoned her pulled the trigger.
Take it and run. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Remorse -- Humanitas, 09:33:59 07/24/01 Tue
This is a tricky one, that's for darn sure. Spike is a cynic of
the first water. From "Pangs:"
Spike : You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and
you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what
Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I
conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the
world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and
you massacred them. End of story.
Not much room for remorse there. It's not so much that he thinks
it's morally right for the strong to prey on the weak. He takes
no moral stance on the subject at all. His point is that it's
inevitable, and there's no point in being appologetic about it.
It's the old saw about not getting upset at a snake for being
a snake. Similarly, you don't get mad at a vampire for just doing
what vampires do (eating people). You might well stake him, but
it's not a hatred situation.
Now, Angelus' behavior is another story. Spike was never impressed
by the elaborate 'art killings' that Angelus was into. To Spike,
there was no point. You kill because it's your nature to kill,
not in the service of some twisted aesthietic. If you want vampy
fame and glory, you kill something tougher, like a Slayer.
What's interesting about the chip is that it has changed Spike's
nature, allowing the more romantic side to be expressed in such
a way that humans can relate to it (hmm, a cynical romantic. No
wonder I like this guy). Because he cannot kill, he is slowly
coming 'round to a point where he no longer wants to kill, at
least not in the way he once did. Opperant conditioning is a lot
more powerful than we like to believe. Whether or not that conditioning
holds up once the chip is out remains to be seen.
So is Spike truly good? No. Not in the same way that Buffy is.
He has very little choice in his behavior. I think the best we
can say is that Spike is good now. He was evil in the past. Who
can say what he will be in the future? But it's pretty clear that
he is good now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> As always on this particular subject, I quite agree
with you. -- Liquidram, 10:55:39 07/24/01 Tue
As I have said before, if Spike wants to take someone out, he
does not allow the chip to stop him. He has proven he is willing
to endure the pain of the chip if it is the result of a greater
good. A few of the most common examples:
* punching Tara in the nose to prove her humanity. (An unorthodox
method, but he did it to protect his friends and at times I've
even wondered if he faked the pain to get her off the hook.)
* punching the KoB in "Spiral" to protect Buffy from
harm.
* and in a bizarre, yet strangely warm bonding moment between
the two further cementing their tenuous moves toward accepting
each other, Spike whacking Xander upside the head. "This
is gonna be worth it." ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: As always on this particular subject, I
quite agree with you. -- voyageofbeagle, 11:22:45 07/24/01 Tue
Good points. We also saw in "Crush" that Spike can kind
of measure the pain and decide if it's worth it ("It'll hurt
for about 2 hours, but she'll be dead a lot longer than that")
What's interesting is that the chip's direct result- physical
discomfort- has caused, or at least given the space for, emotional
discomfort- his moment of conflict before feeding with Dru at
the Bronze is an example.
With humans, this tends to work the other way. Ever been so upset
you've gotten a headache? Or felt so badly about something your
stomach hurt? The emotional distress causing the physical distress,
in these cases.
Hopefully this season we get to see if, once the physical pain
is removed, the emotional pain is still generated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: As always on this particular subject,
I quite agree with you. -- Humanitas, 11:35:25 07/24/01 Tue
"With humans, this tends to work the other way. Ever been
so upset you've gotten a headache? Or felt so badly about something
your stomach hurt? The emotional distress causing the physical
distress, in these cases."
I'd definitely say it works both ways in humans. I know when I'm
hungry or for some reason pysically uncomfortable, I can get pretty
cranky, much to the distress of thosae around me, alas. I think
the key here is to recognize that the physical and the emotional
are not as separate as we tend to imagine. They feed into one
another quite a bit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Remorse -- Cynthia, 15:41:02 07/24/01 Tue
Spike : You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and
you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what
Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I
conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the
world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and
you massacred them. End of story.
If anything studing history has taught me one thing: one people's
worst enemy is another's hero.
I find it hard to judge Angel's 100+ years of remorsing to Spike's
year of change. They are certainly at different places and times.
Also, since the curse is to make Angel suffer, remorse would fit
right in. So is it the soul itself that causes the remorse? Or
is remorse another aspect of the curse? Can you gain (recover?)
your humanity without regret or remorse being part of it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Remorse -- Wisewoman, 18:09:23 07/24/01 Tue
"It's the old saw about not getting upset at a snake for
being a snake. Similarly, you don't get mad at a vampire for just
doing what vampires do (eating people)."
This is exactly the way I look at Spike's behaviour. He didn't
murder anybody, he fed off human beings because that's what vampires
hunt and eat. It's like saying the meat industry murders cows
(and I do know there are plenty of people who feel that way) when
there are still thousands upon thousands of people eating hamburgers.
Sharks who attack and devour swimmers aren't murderers, and neither
are vampires. They're a different, non-human species. We define
them as "bad" because we happen to be their food source.
We demonize sharks, and sometimes tigers and bears and other animals,
the same way. If they maim or kill us for food, then they are,
ipso facto, evil. Pretty anthrocentric (is that a word?) if you
ask me.
;o) ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> only 'cause you asked... -- anom, 18:39:35 07/24/01
Tue
"Pretty anthrocentric (is that a word?) if you ask me."
Well, no, but close. It's anthropocentric. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Thanks! (close, but again, no cigar...)
;o) -- Wisewoman, 19:28:19 07/24/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think that's supposed to be
anthropomorphic. -- Deeva, 22:48:08 07/24/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> not exactly--wisewoman got
it right -- anom, 22:07:06 07/25/01 Wed
Anthropomorphic means attributing human characteristics/motivations
to nonhumans; anthropocentric means taking a human-centered point
of view. In a way, these can be opposites--if you're being anthropomorphic,
you think sharks attack us because they're evil (not 'cause they're
hungry), & if you're being anthropocentric, you think sharks are
evil because they attack us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> The Food Chain -- Humanitas, 18:46:33 07/24/01
Tue
Reminds me of that other classic of non-pc pulp, Tarzan. Most
folks remember the phrase "the Law of the Jungle," but
they forget what that law is.
Everybody is somebody's lunch. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Remorse -- Kerri, 18:53:33 07/24/01 Tue
"Pretty anthrocentric (is that a word?) if you ask me."
I definately see your point. It is in a vampire's nature to kill.
They are a large part animal. The thing is this animal nature
can be fought, as Angel does. For Spike not to be, as he says
"a monster", he needs to fight his animal impulses and
embrace his humanity.
If you want to look at vampires as not doing anything wrong because
its in their nature then they could be regarded as superior beings.
Looking at it this way it is simply like they are at the top of
the food chain and should be allowed to kill humans.
But as Buffy realizes in the Gift humans are good and need to
be saved. Ofcourse you may disagree with me-I'm one of those people
who think eating a hamburger is murder. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Remorse -- Rufus, 20:54:43 07/24/01
Tue
Vampires choose to kill humans and consume their blood. They do
this because of the influence of the demon. The last demon to
leave our reality bit a human and the vampire was born. I see
it as a typical vengeance gig that the human host has never figured
out. We got the old ones place on this reality and they wanted
to leave us a parting gift of chaos. A demon that kills what it
once was, not because it has to but because the soul of the last
demon compells it to.
Another thing that has my attention in The Harvest the vampire
is "waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones
to return".....now, if I were a very smart demon I wouldn't
be too interested in wanting the return of the old ones being
that I would resemble the "animal" that caused them
to lose their purchase on this reality. I'd be thinking that there
would be a bit of an ethnic cleansing that removed the stain of
humanity. I'd be wanting things to stay just the way they are.....speaking
as someone who would be one paranoid vampire. Of course due to
demon integration into human society I think the wait for the
old ones has been largely abandoned by those who like ESPN ect.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> is it really a choice? -- anom,
11:39:25 07/25/01 Wed
"Vampires choose to kill humans and consume their blood.
They do this because of the influence of the demon."
I'm not sure they have a choice. All their instincts are telling
them to do exactly that. And without blood...well, Spike told
us in Pangs what happened to a vampire who couldn't feed. Like
a walking skeleton. (OK, so I don't have time to look up the exact
words. But he did tell us.) And according to Harmony in Disharmony,
nonhuman blood tastes funny. Before blood banks, there was no
way to get human blood except directly from a human.
OK, it's possible animal blood tastes funny because they're used
to human blood, not because it's "unnatural" for them
to drink it. But it probably doesn't occur to most vampires that
they have any other choice, until they can't do what's "normal"
for them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: is it really a choice?
-- Rufus, 13:07:35 07/25/01 Wed
I can go for instinct for a certain amount of what a vampire does,
but how do they generally learn how to kill and who or what to
kill? They are socialized by other vampires and learn the killing
ropes from them. They are encouraged to kill what they once were,
human. I remember Dru mentioning lions blood in an ep and thought
that vampires must be used to making do if there is no human prey.
There could be a taste preference due to that being the blood
they are started on when they are turned. But the kicker for me
is the fact that as sentient beings they understand what they
are doing and do it for pleasure as much as for food. They have
a choice, maybe less of one due to some instincts, but as man
evolved to become less violent and live by rules set up to benefit
society, the vampire remembers those rules and decides to live
by a new set of demon rules. The first rule would be to remember
that what you once were is now an it, an animal, to kill one is
the simple act of getting dinner. But in Disharmony you can see
than some vampires just have a harder time adjusting to demon
reality. Just like some people need life coaches, it appears that
for some vampires unlife coaches , or evil mentors are needed
for them to toss the rest of their empathy for humanity. Once
you relate to someone as a thing or an it, killing them it so
much easier, but it's still at some level a choice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: is it really a choice?
-- anom, 19:17:38 07/25/01 Wed
"Once you relate to someone as a thing or an it, killing
them it so much easier, but it's still at some level a choice."
Gee, same as w/humans...yet more evidence that vamps still have
some human in 'em. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Remorse -- Millan, 00:14:43 07/25/01 Wed
"This is exactly the way I look at Spike's behaviour. He
didn't murder anybody, he fed off human beings because that's
what vampires hunt and eat."
Actually, we've seen at least one murder done by Spike's own hand.
In School Hard he states that the man he's captured is to old
to eat - snap - but not to old to kill.
Now, I'll be the first one to come rushing to his defence and
remind everyone of the difference between Angelus and Spike. Spike
seems to be less evil than Angelus, he isn't very interested in
torture and ... wait, how was it he got his name? Oh, yeah, torturing
people with railroad spikes!!
I think that Spike as we meet him in the second season is less
cruel than he once was but he's still a vicious killer that doesn't
care about anything than himself and the only person he loves.
He doesn' seem to care much about elaborate torture, instead he
prefers a good fight. He probably enjoys a good opponent better
than a scared victim - it would make him feel more "manly".
:)
I think that Spike in the fourth season is not any different than
in the second, but I believe that he IS changing in the fifth.
How much remains to be seen.
So, that's my religion and I'm sticking by it. :)
/Millan
'What can I say? I couldn't wait.' - Spike, School Hard ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> but does she? -- anom, 11:20:17 07/24/01 Tue
..possess a soul, that is.
"Eventhough Anya possesses a soul she seems to not even care
how many lives she ruined."
She got stuck in human form when her talisman was smashed, but
does that mean she has a soul? None of the methods (or is there
only 1?) we've seen to return a soul to its body was used on her.
Come to think of it, what happened to her human soul when she
was changed into a demon? Did it hang around, suppressed? Did
it go where a vamped human soul goes? Anya is learning to be human,
& it's a fascinating process, but I don't think it's clear whether
she has a soul or not.
Maybe she does, but it's just rusty? ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: but does she? -- Deeva, 12:19:32 07/24/01 Tue
Anya the human, that she is now, would really depend on the type
of person that she was 1100 years ago. As Olaf, her ex, said she's
just as annoying now as she was all those years ago. So, maybe
that's a clue that a part of her, or maybe she is, just a very
unforgiving person. Don't get me wrong, she has her moments of
clarity, where she is right on. But being a demon for that many
years, you've got to cut her some slack in the relearning dept.
You've probably met people like this to some degree where they
just can't move past a certain event that happened.
Demon "souls" are another question. I'm not sure that
it would be the same type of make up that vamps have. I think
that it is suppressed to a point of non-existance. Which makes
demons unable to empathize with humans and their past human self,
if in fact they were ever human.
Which brings to mind another question. Judging from the Mayor's
ascension into being a full blooded (humongous!) demon. Does that
mean that all the demons that we see are only half-breeds? I seem
to remember from AtS that there were full demons there but what
made them different? ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: but does she? -- anom, 15:39:26 07/24/01
Tue
"But being a demon for that many years, you've got to cut
her some slack in the relearning dept."
Oh, absolutely! I didn't mean to imply I wouldn't cut her some
slack. After all, she was a demon for about 50 times as long as
she'd been human the 1st time. You can see how she could forget
a lot about human-ness.
But the question of her soul, I think, is still open. She only
got involved w/the gang because of her attraction to Xander, & is
slowly learning the value of being one of the good guys for its
own sake. She still doesn't seem all that motivated from within
as much as by "what's in it for me?" Kerri makes some
good points on Anya & Darla, who were both brought back as human,
so maybe they didn't need a ritual to bring back their souls like
Angel, who remained a vampire, did.
Speaking of Anya & Xander, I'd say it's pretty clear at this point
that she loves him, but I can't remember: has she ever actually
said so? ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Can Remorse be relearned? -- Rufus, 13:57:19 07/24/01 Tue
Both Anya and Spike have been or are demons. They have both killed
for pleasure. Both have been reduced to living around what they
formerly tormented and killed. Both parties at one time had been
human, remembered what it was like to have family and friends
and to love and be rejected. They both became demons after a rejection
they couldn't live with. Now Anya is human and Spike can no longer
kill humans. Can either ever feel remorse? I think that just as
they forgot how to relate to the humanity they used to be part
of they can re-learn how to again care for who they once were.
It will be easier for Anya as she is now mortal. Spike is a bigger
question, can he ever truly be trusted around humans? Look to
the one thing that seems to motivate both characters at this time,
they both lo