July 2001 posts
Real me...the season in
miniature? -- Wiccagrrl, 23:06:51 07/11/01 Wed
This excerpt from the shooting script for 'Real Me', actually
gives away quite a lot of things, with mid-summer 2001 benefit
of hindsight, naturally:
R: Morning, Mrs. Summers. You look great.
J: Thank you, Riley. (Buffy goes and greets Riley as Joyce exits
upstairs)
B: Suck up.
R: What, it's a nice outfit. Besides, 'I'm here to violate your
firstborn' never goes over with the parents. Not sure why.
D: (in voiceover): Riley, my sister's boyfriend, is so into her.
They're always kissing. And groping. (pause) I bet they've had
sex.
R: (noticing Dawn watching ): Hey, kid.
D: I'm not a kid.
B: This is a surprise of the nice kind.
R: Now it's my turn to be surprised. Thought we had plans today.
B: Plans? We planned plans?
R: Well, you said 'come over and we'll hang'. Then I said ''kay'.
Not the invasion of Normandy, but still a plan.
B: Oh, right, uh...
R: We're not hanging, are we?
B: Giles is on his way to pick me up.
R: (understanding): Slayer training.
B: Slayer shopping, actually. (defensive) But it's just as important.
R: I've no doubt. Okay, we'll hook up later.
B: You're not mad?
R: No, no, I'm plotting your death, but in a happy way.
B: (teeny bit worried): Oh, good...
R: (sincere): Buffy, I know what this means to you. I think it's
great you've got this new mission. (he kisses her on the cheek
and exits) See you tonight. (calls out) See you, kid!
D: I'm *not* a *kid*.
(REVERSE ANGLE ON BUFFY, in doorway, watching him go and feeling
somehow guilty)
*******
OK, you might want to go back and read that again. Yes, this is
the second episode of the season, and this one little four-way
conversation (Buffy/Joyce/Riley/Dawn) has just laid out about
half of the main events of the rest of the season, and the comments
that are most relevant are those that Riley makes, by the implications
of what Dawn really turns out to be, that he complements Joyce
who then 'exits upstairs', that he had plans with Buffy that get
deferred, that he respects her 'new mission' and that he is 'plotting
her death, but in a happy way'. Either this show's writers are
having their keyboards possessed by the Buffyverse PTB, or they
had the whole year planned in exacting detail before 'Real Me'
was written. (Your call).
This is from OnM's Riley Post, and I just thought it was interesting
enough to discuss in more detail.
A while ago I came to the conclusion that Guise Will Be Guise
is very much the Darla arc/Angel season 2 in miniature. So many
of the seasons themes are dealt with on a smaller scale there-
Angel's Darla obsession (which drags him away from the gang) The
Guru's advice about Angel sleeping with a "small blond"
to get over Darla. Wesley being forced to step up to the plate
and take on Angel's role as leader of the group, and many more
small and large details (which I'd need to go back and rewatch
to remind myself of)
So, could the same be said of Real Me as it relates to Buffy?
In addition to the things OnM has mentioned, think about the basic
plot- a not-too bright blonde and her minions kidnap Dawn, threatening
to kill her (chaining her up, and yet seeming to wait for a certain
point to do it) Buffy has to save her. Riley does get blown off
because Buffy has to deal with Family stuff. (Also, her intensified
Slayer training is interrupted by Dawn and "family stuff"-
namely, Buffy must look after Dawn because JOYCE CAN'T)
Is this a reasonable theory or am I stretching?
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[> Totally reasonable theory! -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
05:46:31 07/12/01 Thu
Having just got the first half of season five on video, I was
able to watch it in light of its impact on later episodes and
I agree that 'Real Me' is full of foreshadowing. However, I would
go further and suggest that the first three episodes are entirely
devoted to mapping out the themes that are dealt with in more
detail later on.
I won't elaborate on foreshadowing in the other two episodes since
that's not what you asked about. As for 'Real Me' being kinda
like the whole season in miniature, I don't think it's quite that
simple. There is a combination of large story arcs being foreshadowed
on a smaller scale (Harmony + minions, etc), important elements
being introduced (a 'crazy', the 'Magic Box', the Buffy/Dawn relationship)
and themes starting to be developed (slayer history, family).
But that's probably what you meant, right?
One little thing I spotted: just as Dawn brings Glory down upon
the Summers' household, she invites Harmony in...without Dawn,
there would be no Glory.
And one thing that seems to disappear completely: how much Dawn
likes Xander.
So, no, I don't think that's stretching at all (sorry for sounding
like a teacher - this is actually just a long-winded way of agreeing
with you, isn't it). I think that this kind of complex foreshadowing
/ introduction is one sign of how mature 'Buffy' has become.
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[> [> Miniatures, Foreshadowing, Clever Writers and a Gift
-- darrenK, 06:36:39 07/12/01 Thu
You hit it on the head.
RealMe is the entire season in miniature. Right down to the speech
Harmony gives to Dawn when Dawn is chained up.
It does more than foreshadow the entire season, it enacts it.
It's similar to what Joss did with the Teaser section for the
Gift. Made it the entire show in miniature: normal person runs
from horrible vampire, cool girl slays horrible vampire saves
normal person. It was so spare and ceremonial. It gave me chills.
Those clever, sneaky, genius Buffy writers. They're so damn intimidating
that they almost scare me away from spelling.dK
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[> [> [> Re: That is so cool, Wiccagirl! You get a twinkie.
-- Dedalus, 12:50:58 07/12/01 Thu
The
cutest thing I've ever seen -- Shaglio, 06:53:46 07/12/01 Thu
In light of the recent anniversary topical questions (specifically
the Most Memorable Moment on, but it's lost somewhere down on
the posting board so I started anew), I decided to post my favorite
moment. I was thinking of this last wednesday, but I forgot about
it until last night when I saw my lovable Willow again. The cutest
thing I have ever seen was in The Body (yes, The Body) when Xander
was in Willow's dorm room and he was all pissed off at the doctors
for Joyce's death. Willow walkd up to him and put up her "dukes"
and said, "Okay, let's go, you and me." I can't describe
it! It was the most adorable moment I've ever seen on the show.
And yes I'm aware that I said I can't describe it and the proceeded
to do just that. I love the action and the adventure, but it's
those little cute and/or comical scenes that keep me coming back
for more.
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[> Re: The cutest thing I've ever seen -- Cactus Watcher, 07:24:28
07/12/01 Thu
While the scene was set up for 'cuteness' (re: Willow having to
jiggle down her too long sleeves just to show her fists) I found
it to be a very moving dramatic moment as well. Willow's love
for Xander has changed, but she still loves him and knows him
very well.
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[> [> Re: The cutest thing I've ever seen -- Squonk's Tears,
19:12:10 07/12/01 Thu
Did you also appreciate the parallelism of Xander and Tara's intereaction
with Willow? They each kiss Willow on the forehead. There you
have their shared aspect as Willow's closest companions (Buffy
may be Willow's best friend, but Xander and then Tara, obviously,
share something more). Xander and Tara exchange empathetic glances.
Tara's "platonic" forehead kiss is supplemented by three
gentle "lover's" kisses. A very nice scene. And at the
end of it all, poor Anya is still an outsider in the group, despite
the fact that she loves Xander and shares his bed. Very poignant.
ST
Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your
favorite fantasy related TV shows over the years. -- OnM, 22:27:38
07/12/01 Thu
Masq's response to the thread just below made me wonder, considering
the older-age skewed nature of ATPo being what it is, what would
ya'all consider your fantasy faves on TV over however long you've
been watching? You may interpret 'fantasy' broadly. Always like
to understand my fellow poster's perversions better, so go to
it! ;-)
My I'll-buy-these-on-DVD-ASAP-should-I-not-already-own-them TV
shows:
1. Buffy (du-uh!) 2. The Avengers (only the years w/Steed and
Emma, sorry) 3. Angel 4. The X-Files (except the last season)
5. The Prisoner 6. Twin Peaks 7. Most of Deep Space Nine 8. Star
Trek: Harlan Ellison's story 'The City on the Edge of Forever'.
9. The Days and Nights of Molly Dodd 10. My So-Called Life 11.
Sliders 12. Farscape
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- JBone, 22:40:20 07/12/01 Thu
I don't know alot of the shows you listed. My would be:
1. Buffy 2. ST:TNG 3. Lonesome Dove: The Outlaw Years (I feel
I need to explain this one. It's a western based on the MacMurtry
character Newt. Lots of killin.) 4. ST:Voyager 5. Hercules: The
Legendary Journeys 6. Angel 7. ST:DS9 8. Baywatch (You said fantasy)
9. Xena: Warrior Princess (at times great series) 10. South Park
(occasionally brilliant)
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[> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy
related TV shows over the years. -- JBone, 20:10:10 07/17/01 Tue
just want to add "Son of the Beach," (more tongue in
cheek than any show I remember), and a new one "Witchblade".
I love Sara Pazini, and am finding Yancy Butler very hot.
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Liquidram, 22:51:10 07/12/01 Thu
I would have to say that X-Files was my all time favorite....
miss Mulder, love Skinner .... (always on the controversial side
of the stick.)
Buffy/Angel gaining, mainly (and no shock here) because of the
Spike arc.
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Wiccagrrl, 22:53:25 07/12/01 Thu
Humm...ok, here ya go:
Buffy Angel Xena (yeah, I was a big Xena fan) The Avengers (agree-
Just the Emma years) The Prisoner Red Dwarf ST:TNG Twilight Zone
like Dark Shadows and Twin Peaks, but have only seen a few of
each
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[> [> D'oh- forgot to name X-files and South Park -- Wiccagrrl,
22:55:23 07/12/01 Thu
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Rufus, 23:04:16 07/12/01 Thu
Boy, that is a hard one. I was around for many shows I'll list
some of my favs. No particular order of preference.
1. Lost in Space, I remember clearly the first ever episode of
this family in space, I loved Dr. Smith, he was one of the first
men I had seen that could scream like a girl.
2. Night Gallery. Rod Serling was a wonderful storyteller.
3. Twilight Zone. Classic could make you laugh make you cry, poor
Burgess Meredith and his broken glasses at the end of time.
4. Kolchack the Night Stalker. This show is pure fun.
5. Avengers (only with Mrs. Peel)
6. Dark Shadows, so it's a soap, I loved it.
7. X-files. Leaving Canada did the show in .
8. Star Trek in each generation.
9. Deep Space Nine.
10. Babylon 5
11. Dr. Who. I spent many hours with the Doctor. Tom Baker was
my favorite one.
12. Red Dwarf. Holograms can be prissy and hilarious..can't forget
Rimmer World.
13. Ultra Violet
14. Outer Limits
15. Forever Knight
16. Good vs. Evil
17. Kindred the Embraced. My favorite ep was the one where the
fellow who played Kralic casts a spell to look like a normal man
instead of a Nosferatu.
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[> [> I hope you all realise that Buffy and Angel are a
given on my list. -- Rufus, 23:05:58 07/12/01 Thu
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[> [> [> Well of course. BTW, I really liked G vs E too...
-- Wiccagrrl, 23:11:01 07/12/01 Thu
Too bad it didn't last longer.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Well of course. BTW, I really liked
G vs E too... -- Rufus, 23:18:51 07/12/01 Thu
I got an opportunity to catch Babylon 5 and Good vs Evil on the
Space Channel. I'm glad that I had this chance they are great
shows.
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Q, 23:12:32 07/12/01 Thu
1 Buffy 2 Angel 3 Twin Peaks 4 X-files (including last season,
which I really liked) 5 Maybe TNG
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Sebastian, 23:28:59 07/12/01 Thu
Bloody hell....my original list didn't post.
1. Buffy 2. X-Men: The Animated Series 3. Thundercats 4. Voltron
5. Law & Order 6. Designing Women 7. Golden Girls (love that Lifetime
Channel) :-) 8. Ultraviolet 9. Wonder Woman 10.GI Joe 11.Scooby
Doo (how very ironic) :) 12.Charlie's Angels 13.V 14.A Different
World 15.Dateline 16.Daria
I know I've forgotten some from my other (and traumatically lost)
post.... ;)
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Slayrunt, 02:37:33 07/13/01 Fri
1. Buffy (du-uh!) 2. The Avengers (only the years w/Steed and
Emma, sorry) 3. Angel 4. Stargate 5. Red Dwarf (Cloister the Stupid
(LOL)) 6. Star Trek (original/TNG) 7. Hercules/Xena
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[> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy
related TV shows over the years. -- Brian, 03:01:11 07/13/01 Fri
Make that an early morning poll for me:
1. Buffy
2. Angel
3. Avengers (with Emma - witty, sexy, clever science fiction)
4. Star Trek (original series - the first thinking man's science
fiction for me)
5. Babylon 5 (concept of an extended arc blew me away)
6. Space Patrol (Buzz Corbett - my first hero)
7. Flash Gordon (1954 - Introduced me to the whole concept of
science fiction)
8. Twin Peaks (only the first season - a twisted murder mystery
with coffee and donuts)
9. Dr Who - (especially Tom Baker)
10.Knight Rider ( a talking car with attitude)
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[> [> [> Yes, isn't Tom Baker great. -- Rufus, 21:15:46
07/13/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Umm, wasn't that coffee and...cherry pie? ;o)
-- Wisewoman, 22:09:17 07/13/01 Fri
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Millan, 05:11:15 07/13/01 Fri
Here's one more list (not much different from many others):
Buffy Angel Babylon 5 X-files V Farscape ST-Voyager ST-TNG Third
rock from the sun
/Millan
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Shaglio, 05:54:06 07/13/01 Fri
1) The Simpsons (yes they are #1) 2) Buffy 3) Angel 4) Law & Order
5) Whose Line Is It Anyway? (this can be argued as fantasy) 6)
Seinfeld
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[> Apart from the two that need not be named... -- Marie, 06:02:58
07/13/01 Fri
(in no particular order - depends on my mood-of-the-moment):
Babylon 5 Stargate Twin Peaks V Dr. Who Ultraviolet American Gothic
Avengers (the Emma years!) Twilight Zone (the original) Star Trek
Farscape Tales of the Supernatural X-Files Spike - the Early Years
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[> Re: Continued-the-next-day-poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- OnM, 06:31:59 07/13/01 Fri
Veeeeerry interesting.
I've heard many people comment favorably on 'Red Dwarf', but I've
never seen it to date. I'll try to remedy that sometime.
I watched 'Lost in Space' when I was a kid, but kept asking myself
why these people were all so terminally stupid. Later I found
out this was the network that turned down 'Star Trek' because
'we already have a science-fiction series' (a direct quote from
the network brass).
This was one case where the movie version (Lost in Space) was
far, far better than the TV show. I wouldn't give it 'Classic
Movie' status, but at least it was fun and didn't grossly insult
your intelligence. I feel the same about 'Charlie's Angels'. Roger
Ebert absolutely detested that flick, but I enjoyed it, so I guess
it falls into the 'guilty pleasure' category for me. Great director's
commentary track on the DVD, BTW.
One show I saw listed that I would also add to my list would be
'Daria'. I seldom watch it, because the commercial load on MTV
(22% of the hour, in case you ever wondered) is just too outrageous,
but it is a truly brilliant program, easily rivaling 'The Simpsons'.
Keep 'em coming guys! Cool stuff!
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[> [> OnM, on Red Dwarf, one of the crew is a Hologram..............
-- Rufus, 21:24:21 07/13/01 Fri
You have to see this show, I love it. Chicken vindaloo is mentioned
a lot.....
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: The Night After... -- Wisewoman,
22:15:20 07/13/01 Fri
Well, I obviously went to bed too early last night!
Buffy/Angel The Man from U.N.C.L.E. ST:TNG Twin Peaks Avengers
(ditto) X-Files American Gothic
..and I really liked a show a coupla years ago that only lasted
about 6 eps; I think it was called "Prey?" About a separate
humanoid species that shared the Earth with us, and preyed on
us? Starred the woman from Will and Grace? Hello, anyone out there...?
:o)
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[> [> Opps sorry I forgot one Prey..loved it...........
-- Rufus, 22:41:16 07/13/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Prey OT -- Solitude1056, 14:50:40 07/14/01 Sat
The actress in Prey (if I remember the show rightly) was from
RI. And you could tell - she wore brown lipstick.
(A very Roe Dyland thing to do.)
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[> I grew up on Battlestar Galactica and Buck Rogers... --
Wilder, 22:39:20 07/13/01 Fri
I don't really have T.V. now, but my best friend kindly tapes
Buffy and Angel for me. Back in the day it was: · the above
· Dr. Who · V long pause · Twin Peaks ·
Quantum Leap · ST:TNG longer pause · two season
of X-files bookending the movie ..and of course, the best reason
for VCRs - the show's that brought me to this board.
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Rendyl, 22:52:52 07/13/01 Fri
Er...Am I the only person to have seen 'Strange Luck'? You know,
guy survives plane crash as a little kid..now has wierd luck..D.B
Sweeney was in it? "People say I'm lucky..." (sorry,
to this day that line cracks my hubby up) Anyway...
Sticking strictly to fantasy..cough...and not delving into sci-fi
(most of those you all posted I like) here are some of my faves,
Pirates of Dark Water -- (why do networks never finish cartoons?
This one was too cool)
The Tick -- (which might be SF, the line is thin)
The Sentinel -- (and not just to drool over Blair-get your minds
out of the gutter-grin)
Brisco County, Jr. -- (which was ...well it was wierd, but good.)
Poltergeist:The Legacy -- (very uneven but when it was good it
was really good)
Highlander -- (like I am the only one who watches this...)
Kung Fu (the first one)
Since people did list sci-fi here are some that got overlooked--
Prey...did I mention Prey? Did one of you mention Prey? Is Prey
on my list? Is Roger Howarth an amazing actor? Was this show not
ultra cool? Did I mention Roger Howarth was in it? (grin)
Quantum Leap -- (my mom has such a thing for Dean Stockwell)
The Lone Gunmen -- (aghhhhhhhh..they cancelled it...aghhhhhhhhh)
First Wave -- (come on..it has Eddie)
Freakylinks -- (another cool show cancelled...sigh)
Mission Impossible -- (the original series...)
I loved Alex Mack and the Forever People -- (yes, I really am
demented)
Wild Wild West (somehow the series was just so much....neater..than
the movie turned out to be)
Harsh Realm -- (did anyone catch this? I only saw three episodes..did
they make more?)
Batman -- (the animated series. I think someone else mentioned
this..it is so well done)
Men in Black -- (the cartoon is even better than the movie...and
I liked the movie)
DangerMouse -- (at one time I was addicted to this...I would miss
school..work...dates..to watch DangerMouse)
Finally, several people mentioned Farscape (cheers) but does anyone
else watch the Invisible Man? I love it. Darian wears the ugliest
clothes on the planet...it is just a very fun show.
Ren
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[> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy
related TV shows over the years. -- Cynthia, 03:44:38 07/14/01
Sat
All the previous mentions are great. But I have a soft spot for
Thunderbirds. You know, the puppet kids show from the early sixties.
Guess it's because I was so little and I totally accepted them
as characters (strings and all LOL).
I also enjoyed the previous series what ASH was in. The one with
Lori Singer. Can't remember the actually name of the show though.
And, guess, I too, think Roger Howarth is great. Unfortunity you
have to be a watcher of One Life to Live (an American soap for
those outside the US) to see him. Wouldn't mind seeing him and
Marsters in something together.
Does anyone every read a story and visualize what it would look
like as a movie as casted by your favorite actors?
Oh, I almost forgot, another guilty pleasure. Ghostbusters, both
one and two.
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[> [> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite
fantasy related TV shows over the years. -- Cynthia, 03:48:27
07/14/01 Sat
I should never try and type at this time of the morning and before
my first coffee. The spelling, grammer and editing abilities (what
little I have) just don't exist then.
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[> [> [> [> ASH & Lori Singer? Was it called VR5 or
something like that? -- Wisewoman, 11:29:23 07/14/01 Sat
Um, and she had a twin sister she'd been separated from for years?
It was a totally cool virtual reality thing that lasted about
six eps as well. TV sucks sometimes...
;o)
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[> [> My list also includes Harsh Realm -- sollig, 05:46:18
07/14/01 Sat
Here are mine (not necessarily in order): 1. Buffy 2. Angel 3.
Twin Peaks 4. Alien Nation 5. X Files 6. Star Trek, TNG, Voyager
7. Harsh Realm (There were maybe five, which I enjoyed; I think
it had potential.)
I don't think these are technically fantasy shows, but since some
of these were listed elsewhere: 8. The Simpsons 9. King of the
Hill 10. Futurama 11. My So-Called Life (Why, oh why was this
cancelled?) 12. Freaks and Geeks (This was one of the best shows
on television: by turns hilarious, real and touching. About a
high school in the 80s,seen through the eyes of two siblings (one
a former Mathalete who hangs out with the underachieving "freaks",
the other a slight, D&D playing "geek"), their friends
and sometimes their parents. If you weren't one of the "cool"
people in high school, it's especially entertaining. It was an
absolute travesty this was cancelled after only a season! I was
just heartsick. Reruns sometimes air on Fox Family Channel and
if you haven't seen it you must find a way! Okay, I'll now step
down from my soapbox.)
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[> [> [> More on soapbox rants and Emmys -- sollig, 06:12:40
07/14/01 Sat
After posting this, I realized how much I miss watching "Freaks
and Geeks," so I went to its website and found that it was
nominated for a writing Emmy. While it's a crime "Buffy"
wasn't nominated, this really did deserve the nomination it received
(16 months after it was cancelled). If you want to watch this
excellent show, it now airs on Fox Family, Mondays at 10 PM (not
sure what time zone). End of thoroughly off-topic post.
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[> [> [> More on soapbox rants and Emmys -- sollig, 06:13:48
07/14/01 Sat
After posting this, I realized how much I miss watching "Freaks
and Geeks," so I went to its website and found that it was
nominated for a writing Emmy. While it's a crime "Buffy"
wasn't nominated, this really did deserve the nomination it received
(16 months after it was cancelled). If you want to watch this
excellent show, it now airs on Fox Family, Mondays at 10 PM (not
sure what time zone). End of thoroughly off-topic post.
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[> [> Strange Luck - finally! -- Solitude1056, 14:54:42
07/14/01 Sat
I was sorting through the posts, waiting to see if anyone mentioned
Strange Luck - I adored that show. Very compelling, but a hard
one to keep coming up with ideas on if you weren't a true genius...
and it suffered badly when they cut the original writers crew
and shut down the show to replace it with Sliders. When they brought
back Strange Luck (temporarily) it just wasn't as good. My favorite
remains the episode with the convicted killer heading for death
row at the same time that DB Sweeny's character is figuring out,
10 yrs later, who really committed the crime. Worth finding, if
you can, but wasn't around long enough to go into syndication.
Bummer.
Also, Daria gets marks - only reason to watch MTV (which I don't
have now, since I don't have cable). And Beavis & Butthead - oh,
wait, that's not fantasy, that's documentary. Never mind.
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[> My poll of top Sci-fi. -- Emcee003, 05:43:46 07/14/01 Sat
Due to my ever increasing clarity to the apparent age difference
with myself and the average poster to this board, which is probably
measured in number of grandchildren, I only have 18 years of Sci-viewing,
so don't be to shocked with some of my own selection. Live action
list.
1. Red dwarf. The first thing Sci-fi I ever really enjoyed. This
was a Friday night ritual of mine as a kid.
2. The Pretender
3. Buffy/Angel (Although I now seem to prefer Angel to Buffy,
as in the last session each Eps. had some kind of ending at the
end.)
4. StarGate. A Sci fi show with something near really people.
(STar Trek can shove its Prime Directive where the sun don't shine)
5. Dark Angel. Dam Sky for not picking up S 2!!!
Animated.
1. Batman/Batman (of the future/Beyond) Why can't any live action
show today rival this?
2. Teenage Mutant (Hero/ninja) Turtles
3. Transformers, but why did that robot turn into a tape player??
4. X men/Spiderman (and Evolution!). Its X men need I say more!(added
spider man to this to keep my list to 5 each, plus they ran here
at the same time so I can't really separate the two)
5. Secret Agent man. So its not animated, the characters and plots
are as flat as the best cartoons, this one I watch because its
bad, but only if I can't find my copy of Plan 9 from outer space.
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[> [> Re: My poll of top Sci-fi. -- Wiccagrrl, 10:57:48
07/14/01 Sat
I don't know that you can assume how old many of us are from this
list- I'm 30, which isn't real young, but younger than some of
the shows I listed. But in this day of VCRs and The SciFi Channel,
I've discovered and absolutely love some of the classic SciFi
shows.
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[> [> [> Sorry. -- Em, 04:28:35 07/15/01 Sun
My comment had no other meaning other than to get some cheap and
silly laugh before I "grow up" and can no longer get
away with saying such silly things. Sorry :(
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[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Andy, 06:02:46 07/14/01 Sat
>1. Buffy (du-uh!) 2. The Avengers (only the years w/Steed
and Emma, sorry) 3. Angel 4. The X-Files (except the last season)
5. The Prisoner 6. Twin Peaks
These are all on my list as well, although in the X-Files' case,
I pretty much limit my viewing to the first five seasons.
Others I like:
Batman: The Animated Series and the old Adam West series Superman
(the WB cartoon) The original Star Trek The Adventures of Brisco
County Jr. (Actually, I've got time for just about anything with
Bruce Campbell in it) The new, short-lived version of Fantasy
Island, with Malcolm McDowell and Madchen Amick was amusing.
Um, that's just about all I can think of, I think...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy
related TV shows over the years. -- Joann, 07:36:53 07/14/01 Sat
1. Angel and Buffy The others not in any order 2. No Where Man
- (Bruce Greenwood starred in a series about a photographer that
took a picture and had to hide out from the government because
of it; even his wife was in on the conspiracy--really paranoid
series) 3. She Wolf (about a woman who was a college student by
day and a she wolf by night and had her college professor protecting
her and helping her hunt for a cure) 4. Forever Knight. 5. Friday
the 13th (owners of antique shop hunting down cursed antiques).
I remember Stange Luck but it wasn't one of my favorites. It started
off one way and then they started tampering with it. I like the
really strange ones, not so much sci-fi though. Also, The Early
X Files, and, of course, The Granddaddy, The Twilight Zone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Nowhere Man was cool; it had great possibilities,
then got cancelled. Add it to my list! -- sollig, 11:29:49 07/14/01
Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy
related TV shows over the years. -- Andy, 08:42:55 07/14/01 Sat
D'oh! I can't believe I forgot the Twilight Zone!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- rowan, 08:41:04 07/14/01 Sat
These are in no particular order:
Night Gallery (creepy!)
Buffy (except for S4, which was saved by the Return of Spike)
Star Trek: Next Generation (Picard...the Borg...!)
Deep Space Nine (love Avery Brooks)
Quantum Leap (welcome back to TV, Scott Bakula)
Twin Peaks (except the last few eps when it got really crazy)
Dark Shadows (terrified me during the original run when I was
4-5, but great camp appeal in syndication)
Spiderman (the animated 70s version)
Batman (the animated New Adventures)
The Night Stalker (ah Darrin!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- vampire hunter D, 13:36:24 07/14/01
Sat
I don't know why I'm posting this. It's so far down the board
noone will read it. But here's my list (note: Buffy and angel
aren't on it because my interest in them should be obvious by
now).
Live-Action: Star Trek (any of the four) Babylon 5 Farscape Andromeda
Hercules: the LEgendary Journeys Lexx Seaquest (season 1 only)
Battlestar Galactica
Animated: Robotech Transformers: Beast Wars ReBoot Gundam Wing,
Gundam 0083 Dragonball Z Voltron Neon Genesis: Evangelion Record
of Lodoss War Scooby Doo Batman Beyond
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy related
TV shows over the years. -- Fainting In Coils, 18:54:29 07/14/01
Sat
Here's my list:
1.) BtVS 2.) Deep Space Nine 3.) The Prisoner 4.) Gumby (Very
weird, incredibly stoney at times) 5.) Twin Peaks 6.) The Wild
Wild West 7.) The Twilight Zone 8.) The Simpsons (Gotta love Planet
of the Apes-The Musical!) 9.) Angel 10.) Voyager 11.) Get A Life
(Wallet Boy Lives!) 12.) The Outer Limits 13.) The Avengers (w/Emma
Peel--EEE URP!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite fantasy
related TV shows over the years. -- Nina, 19:55:27 07/16/01 Mon
Hmmmmm.... the list isn't long. I can't say that a lot of tv shows
inspired me in my life. So here they are:
1. Buffy (Obvious or I wouldn't be here!)
2. Cupid (Probably the best cancelled show ever!)
3. Northern exposure (Just love the philosophical angle in that
one. Very deep)
and when I was a child:
4. Space 1999 (ah...fantasy about Maya and Tony! :) :) :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite
fantasy related TV shows over the years. -- Fainting in Coils,
17:08:34 07/17/01 Tue
Didn't you love the last episode of Northern Exposure? Very nice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Just-before-bedtime Poll: Your favorite
fantasy related TV shows over the years. -- Nina, 18:06:35 07/18/01
Wed
Where is my post? I answered earlier this afternoon and it's not
there!!!!!!
Anyway! I was just saying that I didn't have the pleasure to see
the finale yet. When Northern Exposure first aired I didn't speak
English at the time so I'm catching up on A &E. Happy to know
that there's someone else out here who loved that series! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> It's good to know the show is still
airing somewhere. -- Anthony8, 23:49:45 07/18/01 Wed
I only really became invested emotionally in 'Northern Exposure'
when it aired in nightly 1 am reruns on a local commercial station.
That ended about three or four years ago, and since I don't subscribe
to cable, all I have are fading memories. Alas.
By the way, if it's not too intrusive, what is your native language?
You express yourself so well. It makes me ashamed to say that,
after 5 years of Spanish (2 yrs high school, 3 yrs college), I
can understand the telenovelas on Univision, but I couldn't communicate
with a native speaker to save my life (or at least not without
sounding like an absolute idiot). And during some late night ramblings,
it wouldn't be unfair to accuse me of knowing English as a second
language. So much for the effectiveness of a lifetime of American
public education.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Quite OT now, isn't it?
:) -- Nina, 11:43:01 07/19/01 Thu
Anthony, my native language is French. I've been learning English
in school but I have never been able to speak or understand it
(English is not taught very properly in the province of Quebec!)
So that's why I feel I only learned the language a few years back.
I think that Northern Exposure airs at 1pm on A&E in the States
(not sure though). I found a few old sites devoted to the series,
with quotes and even transcripts. If you are interested I can
always give you the link! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, OT, but it's interesting
to find out how diverse the contributors to this board really
are. -- Anthony8, 12:15:26 07/19/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Totally agree!
:) -- Nina, 16:05:40 07/19/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OT ? for Nina or any
other Bilingual Canadian Types -- OnM, 17:39:49 07/19/01 Thu
If you have been reading my Classic Movie reviews for the last
several weeks, you will have possibly noticed that I have begun
including info as to alternate language soundtracks that are available
on the DVD versions of the flicks under consideration.
It occurred to me that since we have a large Canadian contingent
on this board, and for that matter may have a number of posters/lurkers
who are bilingual in English/Spanish, it might behoove me to mention
this, since it's one of the great features of DVD's.
In the US, very nearly all DVD's I own have English as the 'primary'
language, by primary meaning it gets allowed the greatest amount
of data space on the disc, usually for a 5.1 surround sound mix.
The alternate languages (most commonly French and Spanish) are
usually in a stereo (2-channel)/Pro-Logic surround mix, which
takes up less space.
My question, if anyone knows-- in Canada, is this reversed for
mostly French speaking provinces, or are the DVD's exactly the
same as the ones in the US?
Just wondering.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: OT ? for Nina
or any other Bilingual Canadian Types -- Nina, 19:38:32 07/19/01
Thu
Gee, I'd like to have an answer for that, but I don't! The fact
is that I read you movies of the week column all the time, but
I don't read the DVD's informations because I don't own one. I'm
almost ashamed to admit it, but I don't even know how the thing
looks like! (dinosor much!;)
Even though I don't know what I am talking about and I shouldn't
venture on this topic, I believe that French dubbed versions exist
on DVD (like in normal video) and that it may also be possible
to have access to other languages. But I don't want to misinform
you. If no one answers you on that topic, I am willing to look
at the local video store and let you know. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> (OT) - No
biggee-- just need to know so I can think too much about it. --
OnM, 21:33:27 07/19/01 Thu
I'm sure someone will know, and duly post.
You aren't a dinosaur, I work in an audio/video store and customers
still come in all the time and when we ask about DVD players,
they say Huh? What's that? or something to that effect.
DVD's have been out about 3 1/2 years now. They look like CD's
(compact digital audio discs) but store information at a far higher
density (they hold a lot more stuff).
This higher storage ability allows a disc maker to place an entire
movie (up to 2 hours and 20 minutes) on one side of the disc,
and the format allows for two-sided discs or two-layer discs,
so you could actually double or quadruple that amount.
There is also enough space to put several different soundtracks
on the typical disc, usually used for multiple languages, or a
directors commentary track, or other extras and goodies that film
buffs go nuts over.
One way to compare the amount of space between a CD and a DVD
is to figure the size in bytes of data, like computers use. If
you do this:
CD = 650,000,000 bytes (650 Megabytes)
Standard DVD = 4,700,000,000 bytes (4.7 Gigabytes or 4700 Megabytes)
Dual-layer DVD = 9,400,000,000 bytes (9.4Gig!)
Just some useless factoids for your enlightenment!
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
(OT) - No biggee-- just need to know so I can think too much about
it. -- Nina, 09:55:31 07/20/01 Fri
Thanks OnM! I did know the basic facts, I just never "saw"
a DVD player! :) It's always nice to know more!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: (OT) - Okay, got the info!!! :) -- Nina, 20:06:38 07/20/01
Fri
I went to the local video store and sneaked in looking for DVDs.
What I could gather is that we only get the original English DVD
version and French speaking people who want to see the movie in
French have to use the dubbed version or subtitled version (if
available). It also means that they don't have access to the surround
sound! So I guess it will be a lot less expensive for DVD stores
in ten years as they won't have to buy videos in French and in
English. They will simply buy original DVDs. I wonder if French
movies have English subtitles as well on DVD?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: (OT) - Okay, got the info!!! :) -- FanMan, 02:12:06
07/21/01 Sat
IMO
DVDs should have the surround sound for music and all background
noise on one "track". It is simply a software/programing
issue...although maby a headache for the techies that would be
doing the programing! So even if the languige is dubbed, you could
get the full surround sound experiance on any of the languages
on the DVD.
Regarding multilanguages; makes sense to me that the best experience
and quality would be in the original language. A French movie
would have French as the primary language. Also translations will
allways lose some factor or nuance of meaning from the original.
AH if only the US were not so arrogant and it was standerd for
most people to have one or two secondary languages like in Europe!
Very off topic I guess, I forgot all the French I learned in school
except je suise, and I rememer cinco(five) from spanish class...he
he
FanMan was laughing in nervous embarassment...
Grrrr. That's all, just grrrrr. -- Solitude1056,
07:53:31 07/12/01 Thu
Read for yourself & tell me what you think is missing.
yahoo news site
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Wish I could say I was surprised. -- Wiccagrrl, 08:03:36
07/12/01 Thu
I did kinda think, if the show had a shot at really getting some
good nominations, this was the year. But the show's been consistantly
snubbed at Emmy time. Good news is that it does seem to be getting
some good press, and the critics and mainstream press seem to
be noticing it. So, even if the Emmy people still don't "get
it", a lot of people do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Typical...Just Typical! The Emmys wouldn't know a
quality show if it bit them in the throat. -- Rob, 08:29:08 07/12/01
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Wish I could say I was surprised. -- Deeva, 09:53:56
07/12/01 Thu
But I'm not surprised at all. Unless they dramatically changed
the voting guidelines, we will continue to see the same shows
voted for over and over. Most big awards are behind the times
anyway and they don't usually catch on till the very end of something
great
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> A rant, also wishing I could say I was surprised --
dream of the consortium, 10:46:37 07/12/01 Thu
Americans don't trust fantasy. As a whole, we assume that "realistic"
art is more serious-minded than art with fantastical elements.
We don't have a canonical history of American-born fantasy; fantasy
has always been considered peripheral. Consider the novelists
most Americans would agree make up the canon of American lit -
Hemingway, Melville, Fitzgerald, Hawthorne (at least the most
widely-read Hawthorne - not Young Goodman Brown, of course), Updike,
even Twain, if allowance is made for the exaggeration of comedy.
All maintain the illusion of "reality" in their works.
We are left with just Poe, who is largely left to the adolescents.
Nothing to compare to Borges, Garcia Marquez, the Faerie Queen,
Italo Calvino, the great British horror tradition, Shakespeare,
the Arthurian cycles, I could go on, but I'll spare you. Even
"new canon" contemporary authors who use fantastical
elements in their fiction (I'm thinking Pynchon), seem drawn to
a type of spinning conspiratorial paranoia, a type of fantasy
that seems more deeply rooted in neurosis than mythology, (Kafka
vs. Jung, perhaps? I'm out on a limb here, and hanging on for
dear life).
But my question is why? I think this national literary character
is partly a result of the youth of the country. We don't have
the depth of mythological tradition that other parts of the world
have. Our mythology is the frontier, James Fenimore Cooper stuff.
Not much room for fantasy there. And I think the country has a
somewhat adolescent attitude artistically - we daren't be whimsical
or fantastical because then everyone else might not take us seriously.
I also think that, particularly in terms of television, this attitude
allows people not to think. Gravitas stands in for quality. You
don't have to explain why a show is good, don't have to use some
sort of critical faculty to analyze the writing or acting. You
just make sure it's "realistic" and that it takes on
"important" themes, and you will be taken seriously.
Of course, important themes in America seem to be those which
can be summed up in a public-service announcement - don't do drugs,
talk to your kids, have safe sex, blah, blah. (OT - I just have
to point out here the horror of the pact which allowed networks
to "pay off" money owed the government for purchased
anti-drug ad time with anti-drug storylines on their shows. So
disturbing.)
I realize I'm ranting a bit here, but Buffy is the only television
I watch at all, and for good reason. Anyway, I would like to hear
what other people think. Why the bias toward "realistic"
art (despite the fact that fantastical art is hugely popular)?
Why are fantasy writers and genre movies and television always
dismissed in America as works for teenagers or entertaining fluff
for adults? Any thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Not just America -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
11:27:41 07/12/01 Thu
I can't add anything to what you've said about the problem in
the US, but I can say that things aren't that different here in
the UK. I'm sure you've heard about the ridiculous marginalisation
of Buffy in the schedule over here (on the BBC, anyway - it's
on at about 6pm, cut so much that some scenes barely make any
sense and regularly taken off the air for two or three weeks because
of some kind of sporting event).
This seems like straightforward whining, but the fact that a show
like Buffy appears in this time slot shows that it is not taken
as seriously as more 'realistic' shows about doctors, detectives
or lawyers that get lower viewing figures but are still given
a higher priority. Buffy gets higher ratings; it's artistic value
is clear to all of us - why can't the establishment take it seriously?
I'm living in the country that produced Blake and Shelley and
has a gothic / fantastic tradition that has been maintained right
up to the present day by writers such as Angela Carter and Peter
Ackroyd and yet Buffy is still ignored, often by the very people
who sing the praises of some of the figures I have just mentioned.
I watch very little TV and having tried to get interested in 'The
Sopranos' and 'The West Wing' I am even more convinced about how
superior 'Buffy' is to more 'respected' drama. But, then, William
Blake was ignored at the end of the eighteenth century - maybe
Buffy will be appreciated more by future generations.
Sorry if I've added nothing but another angry rant. The only reason
I can guess at for fantasy being less popular is that people like
order and the illusion of a stable, controllable universe and
that is what 'realism' gives them - I'm not gonna get started
on how unrealistic 'realism' is but I think we have to remember
that fantasy can be scary and, in the case of Buffy, isn't necessarily
all that easy for everyone to follow. Like real life, Buffy rewards
hard work.
Oh, God, I've done it again - anyway, I agree with you! Time to
shut up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Not just America -- Dedalus, 13:02:48
07/12/01 Thu
Ahh ... Blake ... Shelley ... ahh ... home.
Anyway, I think it all comes down to the fact that, just as Joseph
Campbell said, "nobody knows what the hell a metaphor is."
Just think in the history of religion of all the debates, battles,
bloodshed, and torture that has caused. And now, Emmy snubs. Buffy
is one of those shows that makes you think three dimensionally
instead of just two, and a lot of people refuse to do that. So
you can either enjoy it from the intuitive viewpoint of the child,
or the analytical/emotional viewpoint of an adult, but it's not
something you can watch while clipping your toenails, if you know
what I mean. Same thing with Star Wars.
I have no doubt it will be loved and adored for centuries, but
not until we grow up and move past our "adolescence"
as a culture and a race. Maybe even Jar Jar will catch on eventually.
Just for the record, though, Buffy has gotten some of the best
reviews of any show here in the old US of A.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Agatha Christie -- Brian, 13:29:11
07/12/01 Thu
Agatha Christie wrote a series character called Harley Quinn.
A fantasy-type figure. Mostly short stories. In one story she
reflects on the concept of "Diamond in the rough" That
is what the Buffyverse is. For those of us who have discovered
the great facets of the show, we are the lucky ones. We can only
hope that eventually "others" will get with the program.
For me, the Buffyverse and this board have made a difference in
my life. Enough said!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Not just America -- AK-UK, 14:41:48
07/12/01 Thu
I like BtVS a lot, but I don't agree that the standard of writing
is as consistently excellent as "The West Wing". Season
5 has sidelined various characters, featured a few clunking episodes,
and has, at times, bent it's own internal logic to the point of
breaking.
That being said, I think episodes such as "Fool For Love"
can stand shoulder to shoulder with the very best episodes produced
by any TV show of the past 10 years, and how James Marsters failed
to get Emmy nod confounds me.
Scheduling in the UK of both BtVS and AtS has been......puzzling.
The BBC do show unedited episodes later at night: lets not mention
Channel 4.
I think the problem with fantasy shows, and the reason for the
lack of respect accorded to them, is the fact that 90% of them
are truly awful. Contradictory plotlines, cliche ridden characters,
corny dialogue, etc etc etc. As a fantasy show (a teen drama fantasy
show) BtVS finds itself in some terrible company.
Of course, none of that should have affected the decisions of
the Emmy panel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: A rant, also wishing I could say I was surprised
-- Rattletrap, 19:30:37 07/12/01 Thu
Yes! So well said.
These sentiments are hardly new. C.S. Lewis ranted throughout
his life that Science Fiction and Fantasy remained contantly marginalized
by "serious" literary critics. The same thing holds
true for television in the present day.
I tend to think that by not trying to be "realistic,"
BtVS is more realistic than the shows out there that do. Anyone
agree?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Absolutely. -- Solitude1056, 19:53:58
07/12/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: A rant, also wishing I could say I was surprised
-- Javoher, 20:12:11 07/16/01 Mon
"The youth of the country"...you may be on to something
there. "Adolescent attitude artistically"...yes, very
much so. The only part I disagree with is "the bias towards
'realistic' art" part. I find the usual artistic bias is
towards uncomplicated things and that includes things the average
viewer can identify with easily, not necessarily realistic or
unrealistic. We have regular discussions around this topic in
my household. I steadfastly hold that our real lives are so very,
very complicated and move so fast (at least in Silicon Valley)
that when the average person sits to watch TV, he/she really doesn't
want to think too much because she/he has already done a great
deal of thinking over the 12-hr workday. Television, which usually
plays to the lowest common denominator, caters beautifully to
that desire and that's what's reflected at Emmy time.
I liked "Young Goodman Brown" the best of Hawthorne's
works.
That's my rant and I'm sticking to it. I told myself I'd post
more often, even if I am a day late and a dollar (or more) short.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Could be worse-- it could be the Grammys, where one
year... -- OnM, 19:25:35 07/12/01 Thu
..they gave a Grammy to Jethro Tull as 'Best Heavy Metal Band'.
Never paid much attention to the Grammys before that, and I didn't
pay any attention after.
Wiccagrrl is absolutely right, the critical acclaim the show has
received from a *wide* variety of sources, and the loyal devotion
of the fans is enough. Joss knows this, and so we should try to
be content.
Not that getting a little 'Class Protector' umbrella every so
often isn't a bad idea...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Grrrr. That's all, just grrrrr. -- Andy, 11:19:23 07/12/01
Thu
What's even more shocking to me isn't just that Buffy was *completely*
snubbed (has that even happened before? I could almost swear it's
always gotten at least a minor nomination), but that there was
so much doubling up and even tripling up of nominations for The
Sopranos and West Wing in many categories. Check out the Supporting
Actor drama category: five nominations, TWO shows. Best writing?
Again, five nominations, two shows, FOUR nominations for The Sopranos
with the leftover being West Wing. It just looks as if the voters
are absolutely terrified of anything different than what they're
comfortable with. Really pathetic. I wish I hadn't checked out
The West Wing last month to see some episodes and find out what
the big deal was. What I saw certainly wasn't bad but it was very
standard television ensemble drama. They set it in the White House,
but in structure, pacing, acting, etc. it's basically the same
old "cops, docs, and lawyers" method. I was very underwhelmed.
(OTOH, I also checked out Sex and the City and was impressed with
it. Good show :)).
Oh well. The good thing is that the present-day critics' darlings
of tv rarely stand the test of time. I've got a hunch people will
still be talking about Buffy years from now while many of these
other shows are fading into irrelevance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Grrrr. That's all, just grrrrr. -- Rattletrap,
19:26:49 07/12/01 Thu
There was a minor nomination last year: "Hush" was up
(deservedly so, of course) for one of the smaller writing awards.
20th Century Fox tried to push "The Body" for the same
category of this year--I haven't seen the list of nominees in
those categories to know if it worked or not. I'm not sure "The
Body" was really the best choice, though a brilliant episode
wonderfully executed, it requires the viewers to know a little
bit about the background to the show. Since most of the pig-headed
emmy voters clearly don't watch the show, that may have been a
bad move on 20thCF's part.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Grrrr. That's all, just grrrrr. -- Andy,
06:19:27 07/14/01 Sat
Actually, I think the Best Dramatic Writing nomination for Hush
was quite big. Television is known as a writer's medium, after
all. The fact that Joss got nominated was part of why I was slightly
optimistic that the show would get more attention this year. Oh
well. I think in past years, I'm pretty sure that the show has
gotten one or two technical nominations for something like Best
Makeup or Costuming or whatever, and I think Chris Beck got a
nomination for his score in Becoming.
I think The Body was as good an episode to pick as any, but it
is true that the voters are said to often just go with what they
know, hence the numbing, year-after-year repetition of the nominees.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Well, what did you expect? -- vampire hunter D, 11:39:26
07/12/01 Thu
The Emmy nominations are decided by a bunch of guys in suits behind
desks who I don't even think watch TV. They just pick people and
shows that will make themselves look smart for watching
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Suits! Always a danger! -- Brian, 13:37:40 07/12/01
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Grrrr. That's all, just grrrrr. -- Sebastian, 16:45:27
07/12/01 Thu
I'm not all that surprised. Although, I at last thought "The
Body" would have gotten a nod. :(
Joyce Millman brings up the exact same points on the crappiness
of Buffy being snubbed on www.salon.com.
Its unfortunate - but we have to recognize the fact that shows
viewed by the "maginal" population are NOT going to
be nominated.
(I was hoping for at least ONE nomination for "Queer as Folk"
- but I suppose its easier to deal with the fuzzy-animatronic
queers of "Will & Grace" rather then the in-your-face
reality of the real thing on QaF).
But I'm digressing. It IS a shame that Buffy was snubbed - and
and its an ongoing shame that it will continue to be shubbed by
the "dark suits."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Grrrr. That's all, just grrrrr. -- Q, 23:34:19
07/12/01 Thu
The Joyce millman article is excellent, because it not only defends
Buffy as one of the best shows ever--it points out how cliched
and hokey the West Wing can actually be, with specific examples
as to why it should not be so over-rated. I found it very interesting.
The thing I hate about "The West Wing" is how seriously
they all take themselves. They have let all of this attention
go seriously to their heads. I swear they think they *really*
are running the country!
Unfortunately, even Joyce Millman, one of the most outspoken media
fans of Buffy, considers Buffy only the second best show on TV,
after the Sopranos.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Grrrr. That's all, just grrrrr. -- Lurker
Becoming Restless, 01:21:49 07/13/01 Fri
I agree about the West Wing. As a Brit (and maybe AK-UK disagrees
with me here) the whole cheesy, inverted national anthem thing
at the start just throws me off straight away (didn't that actually
win an Emmy last year - if so, then double-grrr). I don't know
about how all the Americans here feel about that...
Anyway, that cheese just seems to be carried through the whole
show and often takes over. Oh, dear, starting to rant again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Solitudebot......growls...what else can you do? -- Rufus,
23:36:17 07/12/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Who cares what they think? We know better -- verdantheart,
07:19:01 07/16/01 Mon
This is what I expect from the Emmys. I only keep track of the
Oscars (& they can be pretty bad, too). I generally don't even
check the noms, but I did this year in case a miracle occurred.
However, this season's noms are so bad that I'm sorry to say that
the Emmys' level of credibility has sunk to that of the Grammys.
I hadn't realized, for example, that there are only two dramas
on television... Doesn't matter, though. Doesn't change the fact
that James Marsters *is* the best supporting actor.
A Different Perspective -- Rufus, 00:56:55 07/13/01
Fri
I've always considered perspective as being able to see things
clearly. Season five was all about perspective, the ability to
see things clearly. Buffy has the one talent above the physical
power that has saved her life again and again. Buffy has been
able to look at things in a different perspective, even if reluctantly.
In Checkpoint there was a reference to perspective in Buffys history
lecture that told us what Buffy needed to succeed with the Council
of Watchers. While Giles kept Travers busy at the Magic Shop,
Buffy nodded off until she heard something she zero'd in on. Rasputin.
But there was more than just how Rasputin died, there was a comparison
between the perspective of the Professor and Buffy.
Buffy: I, uh, about, you know, killing him.....you know, they,
poisoned him and, and they beat him and they shot him, and he
didn't die."
Professor: "Until they rolled his body in a carpet and drowned
him in a canal."
Buffy: "But there are reported sightings of him as late as
the 1930's, aren't there?"
Professor: "I can assure you there is near consensus in the
academic community regarding the death of Rasputin."
Buffy: "There was also near consensus about Columbus, you
know, until someone asked the Vikings what they were up to in
the 1400's, and they're like, discovering this America-shaped
continent." (Professor looks annoyed) I just....I'm only
saying, you know, it might be interesting, if we...came at it
from, you know, a different perspective, that's all."
Professor: "Well, I'm sorry if you find these facts so boring,
Miss Summers. Maybe you'd prefer I step aside, so that you can
teach your own course. Speculation 101 perhaps?...Intro to Flights
of Fancy."
Buffy had a point, perspective, look at all the information instead
of just seeing things as dry facts from books and the same old
consensus. Buffy is alive because she has blended information
that is written, spoken, mixed with first hand experience. If
something she was told from books is inacurate she doesn't try
to fit a round hole into a square peg...she adapts and works with
what she knows to be true. Checkpoint was all about power and
how it is obtained and retained. The Council was back in town
to reassert their position of power.....they wanted to call the
shots again. At first both Giles and Buffy felt powerless against
a bureaucracy that had existed for centuries, unquestioned. The
Council has the power over the Watchers, the information that
is given out, and what information is acceptable, they aren't
used to being questioned. The review was just another form of
test that was to keep the CoW balance of power in place and keep
Watcher and Slayer in theirs. They came into Giles shops and confiscated
books and talismans ect. that they wanted to look over and judge
the suitability of. They could have cared less about the Magic
Shop, they were making a point, they have the power and Giles
and Buffy don't. That is before Buffy was able to see things more
clearly. Gain perspective over the situation. If we took the Council
interviews of the SG to be how we perceived them, we would have
considered them children with no use to the cause. Throw out all
of their practical experience, just judge them by the useless
tedious questions that the Watchers threw out at them. They missed
the fact that Anya is a demon, uninterested in the truth only
gathering basic facts...."You spell that A N Y A?" They
glossed over any contribution Xander had made and said "no
special skills". The witches......Willow and Tara....they
wanted to make sure were registered Witches. Spike.........first,
why didn't they kill him?........then why bother questioning him
on what it's like to be a vampire when they could find out if
Buffy was going by the books...in not going by the books and killing
him in the first place. The whole thing was a useless sham. The
information they gathered useless as they wouldn't hear the truth
if it was told to them. If it didn't fit the academic consensus...it
wasn't included. A chance to question a demon about her life,
a chance to at least try to get a straight answer out of Spike
on what it was like to be a vampire.......and why was he helping
the SG if he is only capable of evil? The Council may not be blind
but they sure didn't see anything they didn't want to.
In the end Buffy was able to see clearly. She was able to see
who had the power and who didn't. She questioned the council and
came to the conclusion that they had a place in research but were
not the power over her. Buffy was able to, through a different
perspective, deconstruct the Council, removing their undeserved
power.
Buffy was also challenged by reality, Dawn was introduced in BvsD,
as a bratty sister that we knew didn't exist. Buffy's reaction
was to act like Dawn was the biggest pain in the world. She was
jealous of the attention that Dawn got from Joyce. In NPLH, Buffy
found out the truth, the reality of Dawn was that she was the
key. Buffy was angry that the monks had endangered her family,
and gave her a sister that wasn't real. The monk helped Buffy
see Dawn in a different perspective by telling her that Dawn was
an innocent that didn't know that she wasn't a sister, a daughter,
a human. The monk died to protect what he saw as precious, Buffy
watched this tortured man die. He died trusting that the Slayer
would protect. When she got home she looked at her sister anew,
she apologized for pushing her and sat down and softly stroked
Dawns hair, comforting her sister. Buffy went from seeing Dawn
from one perspective and in a few short hours accepted her unreal
sister as precious.
Spike is someone else who benefitted from Buffys ability to see
things from a different perspective. Spike should have been dead
for many reasons. Buffy was unable to kill who she saw as helpless.
Buffy was revolted by the idea of a soulless creature having feelings,
the ability to love. She rejected Spike. In Intervention Buffy
again was forced to see from a different perspective when she
went to the crypt to kill the lovebot shagging Spike. Here was
an almost really dead undead guy, tortured to the point he was
hard to look at. Buffy was there to kill a threat to Dawn, what
she found out instead was that Spike had endured punishment to
spare the Slayer.....Buffy....pain. She kissed him, then looked
at him in the eyes and for the first time "saw" Spike,
not the pose, but the creature capable of an unselfish act, even
without a soul.
In the Gift Buffy had to make a choice, kill her sister, or.....what?
Again Buffy looked at the situation, gathering her memories and
made the choice to take the chance and take her sisters place
in the portal. Buffy finally understood her gift, and it was to
the world. Buffy changed from seeing her Slayer job as a burden,
in the end she found that it was one worth dying for. Things are
never what they seem in the Buffyverse. We can choose to limit
our perspective to what is comfortable or we can like Buffy be
willing to look at a situation from more than one perspective.The
Buffyverse was set up in season one with some basic canon and
a power structure, that has all changed. We know that some information
is innacurate, outdated, and wrong. We know that because you have
power doesn't mean you have earned it or are deserving of it.
Most of all the Buffyverse is slowly going through deconstruction
through the experiences of Buffy, Giles, and the Scoobies. This
is a new world with new realities that have to be considered.
The Buffyverse has looked at gender issues, demon issues, and
the ethics of doing your work, be it Slayer, Watcher, or a normal
guy like Xander. Either the old information or ways of doing things
will stand up to scrutiny or will have to give way to a new approach.
All because Buffy is capable of seeing things from a different
perspective.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A Different Perspective -- John Burwood, 00:25:43 07/14/01
Sat
I agree with your analysis of the importance of Buffy's ability
to see things with a different perspective. IMO it includes an
ability to think originally or laterally. She has had this talent
from thestart. In the Witch, it was Buffy who saw a plate of Brownies
& deduced the body switch. In teacher's Pet, it was Buffy who
identified Miss French as a giant insect in face of Gilesand Wilows
scepticism. In a way, it makesBuffy smarter than either Giles
or Willow. When just learning facts & applying them logically,
Giles & Willow are the clever ones, but when it comes to puttingthem
together creatively - to linking apparently urelated facts & forming
conclusions from them, Buffy has been the smarter. Her punning
in the midst of battle is a permanent running reminder of her
ability to think creatively and originally. I can not help thinking
that if she got interested & focussed on a subject she could outsmart
Willow at an acedmic subject - come to think of it she did once
- in Psychology!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Why the watchers did not kill Spike -- Liquidram, 01:13:57
07/14/01 Sat
Here is a major portion of the script which was omitted from the
final episode. This is the beginning of the watcher Lydia's interview
of Spike:
LYDIA (V.O.) You can't hurt anyone?
INT. SPIKE'S CRYPT - DAY
Spike sits on his bier. Two Council members stand in front of
him, braced and tense. One holds out a cross, the other has a
crossbow trained on Spike. Lydia, wearing a turtleneck, stands
some distance away, holding a clipboard.
SPIKE That's right.
LYDIA But you are a vampire.
SPIKE If I'm not, I'm gonna be pissed about drinking all that
blood.
Lydia doesn't crack a smile.
LYDIA So it's this chip in your head that keeps you from hurting
people.
SPIKE My goodness, you put that together all on your own? That's
right. Leastways that's what I've got 'em all believing.
The humans all tense at that.
SPIKE Could just be a hoax, though. I fake some headaches, everyone
gets used to poor helpless Spike. Then one day, no warning, I
snap a spine, bend a head back, drain 'em dry. Brilliant.
If she's scared, she hides it well. She soldiers on...
LYDIA The chip. Assuming it exists. It takes away the... ability.
But it leaves... leaves the...
He smiles at her sexily.
SPIKE Desire? Yeah, I've got tons of that.
She's a little shaken by his flirting.
LYDIA Um... but we understand that you help the Slayer. etc..
etc. etc...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A Different Perspective -- Cactus Watcher, 06:40:56
07/14/01 Sat
I'm glad you mentioned Buffy 'challenged by reality.' One of the
things I noticed during the season was the high number of surreal
moments, where the 'reality' of the Buffy universe as we knew
it became blurred. The obvious examples are Buffy's trance, the
surreal Christmas scene during "The Body" (Joyce was
too ill to have concidered hosting such a gathering at her home
last Christmas. The Christmas before neither Tara nor Dawn would
have been there.), and Dracula the vampire who doesn't die when
he's staked, but merely dissolves into mist. I think there are
such moments where things aren't quite normal (in the context
of the show) in most if not all the episodes this past year.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A Different Perspective -- Lurker Becoming Restless,
09:29:11 07/14/01 Sat
I agree with what you have said.
I know I've mentioned this before, but in 'A Restless Exegesis',
the writer mentions Buffy's conversation with Tara in this episode.
When Tara tells her that her friends are lost, Buffy replies,
'No, I think they need me to find them' and this reversal of a
negative situation into a problem that can be solved is typical
of Buffy's ability to look at things from a different perspective.
Classic Movie of the Week - July
13th 2001 -- OnM, 22:30:50 07/13/01 Fri
*******
HOST: It's called a moment of clarity, my lamb. And you've just
had one. Sort of appalling, ain't it? To see just exactly where
you've gotten yourself.
ANGEL: I don't know how to get back.
HOST: Well, that's the thing -- you don't. You go to the new place.
Wherever that is.
ANGEL: I don't know if I can. I've done... things... questionable
things.
*******
Angel and Kate sit together. She is drinking coffee. They sit
a moment in silence. The mood is quiet, tentative, but there is
an understanding between them, not obvious warmth so much as the
unspoken trust of two people who have been through a war, and
came out together. Kate breaks the silence.
K: I feel like such an idiot.
A: Lotta that going around.
K: I just couldn't... my whole life has been about being a cop.
If I'm not part of the force... it's like nothing I do means anything.
A: It doesn't
K: Doesn't what?
A: Mean anything. In the greater scheme, the big picture, nothing
we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win.
K: (confused): You seem kind of chipper about that.
A: Well, I guess I kind of worked it out. If there's no great
glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... then all
that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we
do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward,
and finally just to beat the other guy. I never got it.
K: And now you do?
A: Not all of it. But now I just wanna help. I wanna help because
people shouldn't suffer as they do. Because, if there isn't any
bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest
thing in the world.
*******
It is night. Two men are walking together in some obviously depressed
area of some exotic foreign locale. One man is tall, and obviously
hales from a developed, Western country. He seems out of place
and his demeanor partly reflects that. He is nonetheless curious
and involved at what is happening around him.
The other man is small, almost dwarf-like. He seems more at ease
in this environment, possibly because his features sport characteristics
of a mixed heritage, some Western, some Eastern. His name is Billy.
The tall man, whose name is Guy, speaks:
G: Where are we going?
B: This is a little market for the poor. (a long beat) 'And the
people asked Him, saying "What shall we do, then?"'
G: What's that?
B: It's from Luke. Chapter 3, verse 10. What then, must we do?
Tolstoy asked the same question. He wrote a book with that title.
He got so upset about the poverty in Moscow, that he went one
night into the poorest section and just gave away all his money.
(pauses briefly, then continues)
B: You could do that now. Five American dollars would be a fortune
to one of these people.
G: Wouldn't do any good. Just be a drop in the ocean.
B: Ahh. That's the same conclusion Tolstoy came to. I disagree.
G: Ah. What's your solution?
B: Well, I support the view that you just don't think about the
major issues. You do whatever you can about the misery that's
in front of you. Add your light to the sum of light.
(a long pause)
B: You think that's naive, don't you?
G: Yup.
B: That's alright. Most journalists do.
G: (chuckles lightly) We can't afford to get involved.
B: Typical journo's answer. (a beat) Good luck for tomorrow. You'll
need it. Go home, get some sleep.
*******
What makes people seek out danger? It certainly is a commonplace
desire, and respects neither race nor gender nor historical time
and place. It manifests itself in many ways, some cleverly disguised
to make the death-seeking element both less obvious and less actually
likely. It is so pervasive that even those of us who don't wish
to truly put ourselves in harm's way are still likely to do it
by proxy, such as by watching extreme sports activities, or those
'Survivor' type shows that pit man against nature, or maybe by
seeking out and riding the most gut-wrenching roller coasters
in your finest regional amusment parks, or at least by driving
to work each day.
Earlier this week in my Riley character essay, I mentioned that
Riley's persona sports a pretty decent sized component of 'danger
man' within it. I complimented him on seeking out a place within
the military, where as long as he doesn't become deranged or obsessive,
he can harness this drive to productive ends. He gets to fight
the good fight, protect that which needs protecting, and if all
goes well, gets a big honkin' adrenaline rush out of it as a bonus.
Is this such a bad thing? Heaven knows our current civilization
seeks to coddle us, protect us from harm. We even sue people over
spilled hot coffee. Is this the end result of trying to balance
our primal desires to look Mr. Death in the eyeball and flip him
the bird, fully cognizant of the knowledge that Mr. D. always--
*always*-- will win in the end? That the thrill comes from putting
it off *just one more time*?
Ah, youth. Those sweet days when you feel invulnerable, you take
chances, you look at your parents and the other adults around
them and they just seem so... so *tame*. So beaten down, so afraid.
You vow you will never become like that, like them. You will be
different. You will beat the odds, take the bullet, kill the shark,
win the girl's heart. You will be beautiful, powerful and desired,
all enhanced by your daring disregard for...
Reality.
Oh, shit. There's that nasty word again. No, not shit-- reality.
That's the thing that hits you when you get old. That day when
you wake up with a headache, and you shrug it off, but the Tylenol
doesn't help and after several days of walking around with a phantom
fist clenched around your temporal lobe you seek out medical care
and there's a... shadow. It's probably nothing, the doctors tell
you. But you look in their eyes and you can see that they're hiding
something. They want more tests...
How does it end?
Does it matter? It turns out you are lucky, they operate, cut
out the tumor, you can still remember who you are, your arms and
legs and genitals still work, and that, by damn, you've won again.
But there's no adrenaline rush this time. That one was just a
little too close to... reality. And that's no shit.
This week's Classic Movie deals with a number of pretty existential
issues, and we get to see them played out in one of filmdom's
most fascinating and realistically rendered recreations of a genuine
historical time and place. The time is the middle 60's, the place
is Jakarta, in Indonesia. A man named Sukarno is about to experience
his last moments in power, as revolution violently grips the country,
but the story isn't about him, or even about the revolution.
What it is really about involves a young Australian reporter,
on his first foreign assisgnment. He is given a potentially plum
assignment, but when he arrives at his destination, instead of
meeting with the man he is replacing, and getting 'the tour' and
a list of invaluable contacts, he is plunged into the chaos that
seems to spill out of the streets and houses and take over the
very air itself, forcing one to breathe in not only the stifling
tropical humidity, but the constant taste of fear, itself.
A 'sensible' individual would run for his life, grab the next
plane out, but he doesn't. He stays, finds his way, makes some
friends, gains some contacts, tells his stories to his home office.
He thrives, and why should he not, he's a 'danger man'.
Then one day, unknowingly aided behind the scenes by a half-Australian,
half-Chinese near-dwarf of a man who seems to sincerely befriend
him, he meets a woman, an attache for a British diplomat. He is
instantly smitten, but plays it cool. They start to see each other,
become involved. There may even be love.
Then one day comes a coded message, and it is clear that in a
scant few days, all persons Western will become even more persona
non grata than they are currently in this seething caldron of
political instabilities. Now is the time to damn the torpedoes
and get the bloody story.
Except, of course, for that nagging, supremely annoying, Danger-Man-Destroying
bitch...
Reality.
Welcome to the Classic Movie of the Week, director Peter Weir's
greatest film, *The Year of Living Dangerously*. Starring a very
young-looking Mel Gibson in the role of Guy Hamilton, correspondent
for the Australian Broadcast System, and Sigourney Weaver as Jill
Bryant, the diplomatic attache who along with the character of
photographer Billy Kwan acts to provide Guy with, let us say,
a new perspective on the relative values of things both within
and beyond our control.
I cannot really begin to describe the many things that make this
one of the greatest films of the last half-century, you need to
see and experience them for yourself. One of the things that is
usually a given in nearly any of my movie recommendations is that
there will be at least one 'perfect moment' that takes place in
the course of the screening, those minutes or seconds where you
forget where you are and become one with another place and time,
be it real or imaginary. The moment can occur because of a certain
unique photographic styling, or soaring musical vision, or when
dialog begets meaning that transcends mere words, or acting that
goes beyond the gift of finesse. There are at least two of these
moments in this film, and incredibly they last for not just a
few seconds, but are sustained for over a minute or more.
One of them occurs when Guy attends a party at the British embassy,
which he was going to blow off until he finds out that Jill will
be there. Even though she has been gently rebuffing his advances
for the last several days, because she will only be in Jakarta
for another week or so before heading home and does not want to
involve herself in a romance that is done before it starts, he
persists, and she and he leave the party together in a car, driving
out into the night after curfew, a very dangerous idea when the
roads are stippled with roadblocks and angry men with hatred of
Westerners. The music rises up and we are in the moment. It cannot
be described, but it tells us why we seek danger out, and sometimes
why reality needs to be defied.
The second occurs after Jill transcribes a coded message at the
embassy offices, and without a single word, and only the torrential
tropical rain falling on Jill, pouring down, drenching her in
reality's revenge, sadness and despair at humanity's rampant stupidity
is all but made tactile.
And yet there is hope. Reality is neither good nor evil, light
nor dark, danger may be the bringer of death or the bearer of
enlightenment, but ultimately either is what we choose to make
of it. You will see, that even from chaos, it is possible for
one to add one's light to the sum of light.
Add to the sum of your light, and buy or rent *The Year of Living
Dangerously*. The Shadow Puppets will thank you, as will I.
E. Pluribus Cinema, Unum,
OnM
*******
The Shadowy Glow of Technical Candelight:
*The Year of Living Dangerously* is available on DVD, and I *very
strongly* recommend you view it with this media and *not* get
the VHS version. I know there may not be a choice, but the movie
is made in a very widescreen format (aspect ratio is 2.35:1) and
the entire frame is used extensively to convey the emotional and
visceral impact of the story. The last time I viewed this film
on a VHS copy I was shocked at how crappy it looked. This film
is a masterpiece, it deserves far better than a grainy, washed-out
hack job on videotape. Even if you have a smaller TV, where there
will be a lot of letterboxing to preserve the widescreen image,
it is worth it. The pan and scan version is a completely different
film.
The film was released in 1982. Running time is 1 hour and 55 minutes.
The sound mix is mono, which was how the soundtrack was originally
mastered, but the DVD version presents it in '2.0 stereo' form,
meaning it will play out of the left and right front speakers,
rather than just out the center speaker. This is usually a good
arrangement for a home theater setup. The DVD also contains French
and Spanish alternate soundtracks, each with subtitles available.
As on many DVD's, the video is presented in anamorphic format
('enhanced for 16x9 televisions') for you lucky folks who own
these high-tech beasties. If you do, use this disc to convince
skeptical friends that your expensive 'toy' can serve the cause
of art as well as slam-bang action flicks that rattle the rafters.
Music is by Maurice Jarre, and the screenplay is by David Williamson,
Peter Weir and C.J. Koch, based on the original story by C.J.
Koch. The film was produced by James McElroy .
The cast overview:
Mel Gibson .... Guy Hamilton, Australian Sigourney Weaver ....
Jill Bryant Linda Hunt .... Billy Kwan, Photographer Bembol Roco
... Kumar, Guy Hamilton's Assistant Domingo Landicho .... Hortono,
Guy Hamilton's Driver Michael Murphy .... Pete Curtis, Washington
Post Correspondent Noel Ferrier .... Wally O'Sullivan, Sydney
Herald Correspondent Paul Sonkkila .... Kevin Condon, Correspondent
Bill Kerr .... Colonel Ralph Henderson, British Military Attache
Kuh Ledesma .... Tiger Lily
*******
The question of the week is short and simple: What was the most
dangerous thing you've ever done in your life, and did it turn
into a positive experience or a negative one, or some measure
of both?
*******
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - July 13th 2001 -- Rufus,
22:50:43 07/13/01 Fri
I can't think about this movie without considering the wonderful
job Linda Hunt did as Billy Kwan.
As for dangerous things......going out on a boat with my Dad who
had no idea of how to read a chart....think big rock...and ending
up on a near sinking ship. I made up any excuse possible to never
go on anything that floated with my parents again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - July 13th 2001 -- Cactus
Watcher, 23:36:39 07/13/01 Fri
I hate to say it, but I personally found The Year of Living Dangerously
dull, and if anything over done. Don't get me wrong. It's well
acted and all. Many besides OnM think it's a great movie and with
reason. There is an aspect of the movie, however that is important,
but easy to forget. I've spent a good bit of my life playing it
safe. But, I was involved with serious study of the USSR back
in the bad old days. A dear friend of my was briefly arrested
for taking a picture of a Soviet shoestore. Someone thought she
surely was going to use it to demonstrate how awful shoestores
were in the USSR. That person undoubtably believed they were going
to get into desperate trouble over it. One of my professors, a
native Lithuanian, was cornered by the KGB, and on pain of imprisonment,
forced to say he would work for them. The fact that he outwitted
them easily is beside the point. The point is what in the hell
did the KGB think it was going to learn from what a literature
professor could tell them? I know, even if perhaps you don't.
The most dangerous things I did in my life had nothing to do with
how much danger I was in. Over the years I spoke to many people
who had sold their souls to a horrific dictatorship to make things
a little better for their families. Soviet citizens who talked
to too many foreigners could get in deadly serious trouble, and
yet I never had a problem getting people to talk. Maybe they couldn't
be honest about what was going on in their country, (some were,
some weren't), but they talked with me. It's one thing to risk
your own well being. But, knowing you're risking someone else's,
and knowing you have to do it, is something else. Journalists
love to tell people their job can be risky. One thing you should
remember as you watch The Year of Living Dangerous is that their
job can be risky for others as well. It isn't Mel Gibson's character
who dies!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I am totally in love with this movie. Great choice! -- rowan,
08:32:31 07/14/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - July 13th 2001 -- Aquitaine,
12:35:55 07/14/01 Sat
Great review, OnM!
***
Most dangerous thing I've done? Paragliding in Greece. I break
out in a cold sweat every time I think of how many things could
have gone wrong that day. Shudder. Of course, sometimes the most
dangerous things we do are only peripherally harmful in the physical
sense. It's the emotional scars that are the most persistent.
- Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - July 13th 2001 -- Cynthia,
15:03:27 07/14/01 Sat
I would have to say the most dangerous thing I've ever done was
becoming a mother. To be responsible 24/7/365 for another life
can be terrifying at times. You actually have to make decisions
that effect someone other than oneself.
I could also go on and on about all the positive aspects of motherhood,
but I won't. Except to say that it has made discover strength
within myself that I may have never found otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - July 13th 2001 -- Fainting
In Coils, 18:31:25 07/14/01 Sat
This movie is in my Top 20 along with a number of other Peter
Weir films. 'Picnic at Hanging Rock,' 'Gallipoli,' 'Witness,'
'Fearless,' etc.--What a body of work. Most dangerous thing I
can recall was driving back from Lake Beryessa, California to
UC Davis in the pitch black of 3am, in neutral, letting gravity
do the work. Extremely scary, extremely reckless, and exceedingly
stupid!
F-I-C
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - July 13th 2001 -- Anthony8,
18:35:39 07/14/01 Sat
Yeah, this is indeed one of my favorites. Anything by Peter Weir
is fine with me. I would also recommend 'The Last Wave,' although
I haven't been able to find it on video or DVD for the last couple
of years.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> My Year of Living Dangerously -- Wisewoman, 13:28:13 07/15/01
Sun
Good question, OnM! I had to go waaaaaay back to remember anything
dangerous I'd done, which probably says a lot about my life now.
My own year of living dangerously was 1972, when I was 19 years
old and living on my own in Toronto in a big old house that had
been converted into a number of tiny bachelor apartments, most
of which were inhabited by women in their 30s of "questionable"
virtue.
On one occasion I stepped between a drugged-up, knife-wielding
pimp and one of his girls, and talked him out of killing her while
we waited for the police to arrive.
Another time the same house caught fire in the middle of the night,
and I went back into my apartment, which was actually burning
at the time, to get a kitten I'd inadvertently left behind.
Perhaps because I was 19 I didn't consider either act to be all
that dangerous at the time, just something that I did because
the situation arose, but looking back on it now I figure I had
more guts than brains!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> You are the patron saint to cats now........:):):)
-- Rufus, 14:59:29 07/15/01 Sun
A stupid and very lucky saint, but we have to look at the end
result of what you did. After all that was a tiny kitten and I
could see why you would run back into the apartment. With the
pimp maybe it helped that he had this niggling bit of humanity
that you could speak to.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: You are the patron saint to cats now........:):):)
-- Wisewoman, 18:55:33 07/15/01 Sun
You hit a couple of nails on the head there Rufus, one of them
being my stupidity!
The other was the thing about the pimp's humanity. If I try to
analyze it, I think what slowed him down a bit was that I started
out by taking his side and letting him know that I agreed he had
a beef against his girl, but that it would be really dumb to spend
the rest of his life in jail over her (my feminist nature shudders
at this now!).
Fortunately, he was not so whacked out that he couldn't hear me,
or that probably would have been the end of Dumbwoman, right there!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: You are the patron saint to cats now........:):):)
-- Rufus, 20:20:58 07/15/01 Sun
You took a chance that I think in the safety of the present you
can be glad you did. Once you had him identify with you in a posative
way you were home free. Just be glad he didn't offer you a job:):):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Do you know whatever happened to the woman whose life
you saved? -- OnM, 16:46:41 07/15/01 Sun
That was indeed pretty gutsy. Lots of us think about what we would
do in a situation like that, that we would do the 'heroic' thing,
but in reality putting yourself in danger like that is something
else entirely.
A sincere 'good show' to your bravery!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Do you know whatever happened to the woman
whose life you saved? -- Wisewoman, 18:47:52 07/15/01 Sun
I left that house, and Toronto, in 1973 to move permanently to
Vancouver. When I left, the woman, whose name was Teena, was still
with the same pimp. I lost a lot of my starry-eyed idealism in
the years I spent there, believe me. We had another tragedy a
few weeks later when Teena's siamese cat escaped and killed Dorothy's
budgie. Dorothy was an extremely fragile middle-aged alcoholic
and she lived for her bird. She immediately went to throw herself
under a train in the nearby subway station and I followed her
through about six inches of snow, coatless and in fuzzy slippers,
and tried to persuade her to come with me into a church instead,
which failed miserably when the church turned out to be locked
up tight! At least I managed to talk her out of the subway station,
but really I think that was more owing to the fact that I appeared
to be the insane one...she was suitably dressed for the weather,
and I think I was embarrassing her!
Yup, I think I did a lot of growing up during those two or so
years. For instance, the reason the house caught fire is that
it was next door to a small and very old wooden church (not the
same one I tried to get Dorothy into) that was being used by the
Jamaican-Canadian Society. It was fire-bombed by racists... :o(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> And people think writers just make up
crazy stuff like this... -- OnM, 20:09:12 07/15/01 Sun
.. or wonder why other people would rather spend time in fantasy
worlds rather than the real one.
(~sighs~)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: And people think writers just
make up crazy stuff like this... -- Rufus, 20:17:49 07/15/01 Sun
The people that go on about things in the Buffyverse not being
realistic cause it could never happen in the real world haven't
been paying attention.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: And people think writers just
make up crazy stuff like this... -- Wisewoman, 20:32:38 07/15/01
Sun
Sometimes I reassure myself that this is the reason I find it
so difficult to write fiction. Any effort I make to create something
convincingly "true-to-life" turns out totally unbelievable!
(lol)
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Does danger = living fully? -- Wisewoman, 20:52:32
07/15/01 Sun
Okay, I may be getting a bit maudlin now, as this "conversation"
has caused me to do quite a bit of thinking about a specific period
in my own past, but I've been wondering...why is it that I haven't
done anything "dangerous" in the last thirty or so years?
The person I was at 19, perhaps foolishly, didn't stop to think
much before she put herself into potentially dangerous situations,
and I think that person was perhaps much more "alive"
than the person I am now. Watching Fool for Love again last night,
I was reminded of the sort of intensity and passion for life that
people of Buffy's age seem to have. (And I'm including Spike here,
as his mental age doesn't seem to have changed much in over 100
years!)
I really miss that, the feeling that every minute was fraught
with potential danger, and excitement, and importance. The feeling
of, well, immortality. Where does that conviction go? Is it a
natural casualty of aging, or does something in the way one leads
one's life, in the choices one makes, deaden the feeling? And
is it ever possible to get it back?
And, in an attempt to remain on topic, is this exactly what draws
me, and others like me, to BtVS? Am I re-living my youth vicariously
through Buffy? And if so, would it be better then to stop clinging
to the fantasy re-enactment and instead pursue a more fulfilling
and meaningful reality?
Aaaaaargh! That's a bit too much angsty questioning for a Sunday
evening...g'night all!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Does danger = living fully? -- Anthony8,
21:45:24 07/15/01 Sun
IMO, danger at age 19 is more along the lines of living carelessly
(though no necessarily carefree, which is, I think, a good thing)
than living fully. I feel lucky to have survived, when so many
have not. For example, I lost one friend who attempted foolishly
to have his picture taken on a precarious rock outcropping in
the Grand Canyon with disastrous results. He really wasn't living
dangerously (or fully) at that moment so much as carelessly since
he was more concerned with how cool the picture would look rather
than the possibility that he would lose his footing and never
be in another picture again. To me a glider ride over the canyon
or some other similar adventure would have been more in line with
living fully in that moment.
I don't think that this friend's life would have been any less
full had he chosen a slightly less dangerous path. Also, as we
were all to discover at his funeral reception, he had so much
more depth of character than we ever knew, had he lived, there
would have been quite a full enough life ahead for him.
I don't in any way mean this to be a sermon on the benefits of
living a boring life. I'm just saying that hindsight not only
is 20/20, but it also tends to be overly romantic. That's not
to say that I wouldn't mind having the same overall energy level
that I did at 19, but I'm happy for the wisdom (which has its
own fullness)I have acquired since and wouldn't part with that
in exchange for a little more danger. Now, give me the wisdom
and send me back to age 19--well, maybe then I'd be singing a
different tune.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Does danger = living fully? -- Solitude1056,
07:42:28 07/16/01 Mon
I am reminded of something I was told shortly after I opened a
bookstore, many years back. "You may be liberal now, but
you'll become conservative as soon as you have something to lose."
Which, I suppose, is the this-era corrollary to Joplin's statement
that freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW
A VAMPIRE! -- Slayrunt, 06:56:36 07/15/01 Sun
It's my birthday and I'll start a strange thread if I want to!
This is a contest to NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW A VAMPIRE!
here is the premise, we don't know Darla's human name, Darla doesn't
know Darla's name, so it's time to NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S
NOW A VAMPIRE!
Rules: 1. I .... make the rules 2. you .... NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN
WHO'S NOW A VAMPIRE! 3. I will be the judge 4. refer to rule one
Winner will be immortalized forever(?) in the 1st aniversary posting
party Darla thread.
Thank you for playing NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW A VAMPIRE!
and for forgiving a tired guy who's going to bed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW A
VAMPIRE! -- Brian, 08:58:43 07/15/01 Sun
How about: Mary Carpenter
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Gee. -- Solitude1056, 11:36:24 07/15/01 Sun
I was thinking more like "Betty Lou."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S
NOW A VAMPIRE! -- Slayrunt, 16:05:03 07/15/01 Sun
Is that the girl with Dr Jekyl(sp?)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW A
VAMPIRE! -- Wisewoman, 12:13:49 07/15/01 Sun
I'd go with Jane Stride--Jane for the time, place, and her profession,
and Stride for the third victim of Jack the Ripper. She'd probably
have been called Janet by her friends and clients.
I like Mary Carpenter too, though.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Interesting and a (ot) question -- Slayrunt, 15:57:03
07/15/01 Sun
I've never thought about the Ripper and Buffy (Jack, not Giles).
Any reason you chose Stride and not Chapman or Kelly or one of
the others whose name escapes me now?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Interesting and a (ot) question -- Wisewoman,
18:29:31 07/15/01 Sun
Random choice, really. Chapman seemed too close to Brian's Carpenter,
and Mary Kelly was Irish, but I don't think Darla originally was.
I just thought Stride went well with Jane or Janet. The Ripper's
other victims were Ann Nichols and Catherine Eddowes. Nothing
wrong with either of those names, I just preferred Stride for
someone with Darla's pesonality.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW A
VAMPIRE! -- Liquidram, 15:54:15 07/15/01 Sun
I like Mary Carpenter also.
Which brings up another question.... why Darla? We know where
Angelus came from and we know the reason for Spike.
And what about Drucilla? Do we know her human name?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S
NOW A VAMPIRE! -- Slayrunt, 16:02:08 07/15/01 Sun
If you're asking why her vamp name is Darla, the Master gave her
the name because it means precious or something like that and
she was his fav.
Dru is also and interesting question. It was never made clear
if that was her human name or not and why (if not) is she called
Drucilla.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> If it's not her birth name -- Greta, 06:52:41
07/16/01 Mon
Maybe Sister Drusilla is the name she was going to assume when
she took her vows as a nun?
Oh, and for the record, I like Jane Stride, it's so full of historical
allusion:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: If it's not her birth name -- Can't
be, 15:55:13 07/16/01 Mon
When you become a nun, you must take saint's name. That was the
rule until the 1970's or similar.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW A
VAMPIRE! -- purplegrrl, 08:30:12 07/17/01 Tue
How about Hester Prinn?
(I was watching "The Scarlet Letter" yesterday. Hester
was a strong-minded woman who didn't take much crap from anyone.
I could see her becoming a vampire, especially if it meant she
could have revenge on a bunch of narrow-minded townspeople.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: It's time to play...NAME THAT DEAD HUMAN WHO'S NOW A
VAMPIRE! -- d'Herblay, 13:48:14 07/17/01 Tue
Many poets have been appreciated only posthumously, but rare is
the poet who discovers his muse after his own death. Perhaps there
has been only one. In this game of "name that dead human
who's now a vampire," I offer you Spike=William Ernest Henley
(1849-??), lesser Victorian, supposed tubercular invalid, worshiper
of force and dynamism.
From "Space and Dread and the Dark":
Life--life--let there be life! Better a thousand times the roaring
hours When wave and wind, Like the Arch-Murderer in flight From
the Avenger at his heel, Storms through the desolate fastnesses
And wild waste places of the world!
Life--give me life until the end, That at the very top of being,
The battle-spirit shouting in my blood, Out of the reddest hell
of the fight I may be snatched and flung Into the everlasting
lull, The immortal, incommunicable dream.
In other words, "I always knew I'd go down fighting."
The importance of Anya's list
and unmixy oil & water. -- John Burwood, 07:26:20 07/15/01 Sun
In The Replacement anya quotes a list of desires in recognition
of her 'imminent' demise - car, boat! puppy! child. Anya's list
is a garbled allusion to what real life, & real love, are all
about. Real love is not about romance or sex but about sharing
a life,including homes, taxes, children, boats, etc. It is about
normal life, & Angel left Buffy because as a vampire he could
not give her that normal life, & nor could Spike. Rileycould have,
& so could Angel as a human -but Angel in IWRY & Riley in S5 both
faced the problem of Buffy's other life - slaying, the oil unmixy
with the water of normal Anya'slist life. Angel chose to stay
a vampire, because he knew he could not share that life as a human.
Riley tried hard to share it, but Buffy would not let him. But
IMOfor any relationship with Buffy to work, her partner would
have to be able to share both the oil of slaying & the water of
Anya's list. If Riley could not, who could?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The importance of Anya's list and unmixy oil & water.
-- Joann, 07:54:50 07/15/01 Sun
The way you describe it makes it sound like...Xander.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The importance of Anya's list and unmixy oil & water.
-- VampRiley, 08:22:58 07/15/01 Sun
At this point, I can only think of two. First, Willow but that
just my dirty little mind going off on a tangent. The second is
Giles, but like she has said at least twice, combining both Giles
and sex is gross 'cause he's old. Chances are neither would actually
happen. Although, it might make for an interesting story if Buffy
dated either one at least for awhile but Giles will be in England
for most of the season. Maybe a little long distance romance -
maybe not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The importance of Anya's list and unmixy oil & water.
-- John Burwood, 09:06:19 07/15/01 Sun
Your responses intrigue. I would have mentioned Xander in my 1st
post if I had time,but I only get 15 mins to type each message
on my TV Internet system. I remember how often Xander tried to
patrol with Buffy when he was first obsessed with her, but he
was nowhere near as effective as commando Riley proved he could
be in FFL. Maybe the answer is a younger trained watcher who had
previously done a stint as an Army or Marine Commando & studied
magic to some level of proficiency, & who had Xander's level of
loyalty to his 'hero'. Asking one hell of a lot is the problem!
There will not be many guys worth anything who can sit at home
getting the dinner ready while the girl they love is all alone
fighting for her life.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The importance of Anya's list and unmixy oil & water.
-- Wiccagrrl, 10:48:06 07/15/01 Sun
Hmm...who in the Buffyverse would be able to understand and share
Buffy's slayer life? coughFaithcough Talk about chemistry. Ok,
so...it ain't gonna happen. But still...
Also,I don't know that I agree that a human Angel would never
be able to share a life with Buffy as a human. The impression
I got with IWRY was that we were partly talking about it not being
the right time. Angel (and Buffy, but more Angel I think) still
had miles to go before he slept. The oracles seem to indicate
this is something of a fluke. The indication is that Buffy will
die, as will many others, if he stays human (all things considered,
ironic much? She died a year later anyway.)
If and when Angel gets his Shanshu, this is supposed to be something
TPTB give him. I don't think there'll be the same kind of "is
this right" issues that IWRY had. And frankly, unless Buffy's
married or dead (again) at that point, I can hardly imagine him
not making a mad dash straight to her when he does become human.
Don't really see her getting together with any of the Scoobs.
Giles, Willow, Xander...they're all like family at this point.
And Spike- well, frankly I see all of the same drawbacks/issues
that the B/A 'ship had (minus the curse, but without the soul)
So, I'm kinda thinking no.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Oracles -- Cactus Watcher, 11:45:50 07/15/01 Sun
Wiccagrrl- I agreed with you on Buffy. But, I'm not sure it's
fair to call what the oracles said ironic. Angel never actually
asked whether his becoming an immortal again, would keep Buffy
alive. Angel's assumption, that it would, was what was ironic.
Would he have gone back to being an immortal, if Buffy had died
before he met the oracles? It's an interesting question.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Oracles -- Wiccagrrl, 12:05:13 07/15/01
Sun
Oh, I know they never made any guarentees, and I'm not saying
they misled him, but I think it's fair to say that a large part
of the decision on Angel's part had to do with Buffy's safety.
He was concerned that, under the circumstances, and given what
the oracles did say, she was likely to end up getting killed.
Sadly, it happened anyway.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Oracles -- Cactus Watcher, 17:31:15
07/15/01 Sun
Right. But, if he had asked the magic question, he might have
been told, what he did would make no difference to Buffy's destiny.
And, of course, that would have ruined most of the past season
for all of us. Fortunately, oracles of the Angel universe, like
oracles of Greek mythology had a habit of answering the question
that was asked not, the question the knowledge seeker would really
want answered, if she/he had a better idea of what was going on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The Slayer and the Hunter -- Wisewoman, 12:01:40 07/15/01
Sun
There was a spoiler/rumour going around a while ago that was probably
fanfic. It had to do with the plot of ASH's BBC series and said
that he would be searching for The Hunter who was the male other
half of the Slayer. There supposedly had always been Hunters and
Slayers as couples but then one Slayer died during a Cruciamentum
(sp?) and the Hunter refused to work with the Watchers Council
after that.
I kinda like the idea that there's an "other half" out
there, waiting for Buffy, destined to be her perfect partner.
I know lots of fans think of Angel that way, but I'd be okay with
someone brand new.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Slayer and the Hunter -- Liquidram, 15:27:30
07/15/01 Sun
This is probably the only logical answer because I really doubt
Buffy, in her slayer state could have a "normal" relationship.
Spike would be a great match for her in equality and passion,
but only if he was human because of a number of reasons which
we all know.
I read an interesting fic somewhere that allowed her to "retire
and pass the mantle" if she survived to age 31. Sounds good
to me. You would think there would be some reward for sacrificing
most of her life (or all of it in the case of past slayers.)
I couldn't even image her wanting to have children as long as
she still was the Slayer. They would be constant targets along
with a normal, human husband (which comes back to why Angel refused
to remain human.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The Slayer -- darrenK, 09:28:44 07/16/01
Mon
There is the possibility that Buffy will no longer be the Slayer
when she's brought back. I don't think this is what they'll do,
but you never know...
After all, when Darla was brought back she was no longer a Vampire.
And the Slayer mantle really passed to Kendra then Faith after
Buffy's first death.
I'm not sure how I feel about this whole "Hunter" business.
It would amount to a major reworking of the Slayer myth. And I
can't help feeling that it's a little late to be doing that.
Joss and company were able to turn the "new relative"
TV cliche on its head, but I'm not sure they could rewrite the
Slayer myth equally adroitly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> What about William? -- Wilder, 21:57:42 07/15/01 Sun
That's if, or course, the prophecies are really about Spike and
he was the one rewarded with humanity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Why do I think that would really p*ss him off? --
Liquidram, 13:44:20 07/16/01 Mon
the
dumbest question ever! -- vampire hunter D, 12:56:15 07/15/01
Sun
All right, I'm kind of bored here. So to liven things up, I will
now ask the dumbest question ever posted on this board. And that
question is:
Is having sex with a vampire considered necrophilia?
Well, there it is. I now stand ready to take your abuse and ridicule.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: the *so not the* dumbest question ever! -- Wiccagrrl,
13:05:04 07/15/01 Sun
I don't think so. Although, I laugh everytime I hear Faith's line
to Buffy about "boinking the undead" Vampires, while
technically "dead" or at least "undead" are
animate. They're responsive. I'd imagine (oh,this conversation
is gonna go some strange places) that part of the turn-on with
necrophilia is the fact that you're having sex with something
sorta-human, but totally at your control- an object, but not.
Does that make *any* sense?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: the dumbest question ever! -- Liquidram, 16:13:43 07/15/01
Sun
Sheesh, good question. I'm sure that just about everyone on this
board would consider sex with a vampire somewhat distasteful,
but enough of the political commentary.
In Buffyverse, our vamps are written as passionate beings quite
capable of strong feelings of love. Even, in Spike's case, of
causing the catalyst of changed behavior that is strongly against
their demonic nature. In these circumstances, we have that gray
area again. True love vs. Ewwww factor.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: the dumbest question ever! -- Nina, 18:05:40 07/15/01
Sun
Dumb question? Where? Have you ever read mines? ;)
Sincerely it's a really interesting issue. I've been thinking
about that lately after having read all the fanfiction I could
take (I made an overdose and have to go in rehab!). I think that
in the Buffyverse the vamps are portrayed as human with a demon
inside more than like zombies or dead people. Everytime Xander
hit Spike with a "undead" comment it always seems weird
to me. Not that he insults him, but the choice of his insult.
He's trying to put him back to where he belongs, wih the undeads,
but we've never seen Spike as an undead character. It was never
written that way.
So technically through a certain point of view it is not necrophilia,
as they are not dead, but "undead". They walk, they
talk, they look alive. Still, the lack of bodyheat and heartbeat
gravitates much towards the necrophilia side. I talked a bit about
fanfiction, it was for a reason. Usually fanfiction writers don't
consider that aspect repulsive at all. They go on about it. They
describe it like the ultimate fantasy. Does that make the writers
necrophiles?
Buffy never got to talk about her night with Angel to give us
some hints about how she felt about that issue. Well, the fact
that Angel turned bad kinda threw the subject away, but it would
be interesting for ME to explore that area.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Errr....Liquidram..(sticking my neck out here)
re: sex with a vampire -- AK-UK, 18:20:03 07/15/01 Sun
Errr....would you guys consider it distasteful to sleep with a
vampire? I mean, I'm speaking for myself here, but I'd sleep with
VampWillow....I mean, as long as she didn't put her vamp face
on.........and even then I think....no, I'm not going there.
Are vampires a different species? If they are, I think you'd probably
class sex with them as beastiality.......which makes me feel so
not better.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Sex w/ a Vampire -- Bestiality vs Necrophilia
-- Simplicity, 18:53:09 07/15/01 Sun
Sex with a Vampire?
***I sound like Jerry Springer!
Hmmm. . .could be bestiality (there territorial, possessive, good
sense of smell, etc. . .could be necrophilia (cool -- room temperature,
and technically dead.)
For the bestiality part, it has some merit.
Accept that they are not all animal. They have a human face and
have the ability to think for themselves (versus acting on instinct).
I'd say that sleeping with Oz (a werewolf) would be closer to
bestiality.
Necrophilia? No, I don't think so. Because they are not just reanimated
corpses. I think of them as cold humans with a really nasty bad
side (FANGS!). They are capable of complex thoughts and emotions
(unlike a corpse).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> My first Errr ... cool -- Liquidram, 18:54:28
07/15/01 Sun
Hmmm, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to figure out which one
I'd go for.
Didn't even consider the beastialty aspect .... *ish* (although
me thinks it would be fairly difficult to remember that aspect
should one actually be in a clinch with one of the ones we know.
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> vamp fever -- cknight, 19:10:46
07/15/01 Sun
"I got vamp fever, I got vamp fever, She's got vamp fever,
he's got vamp fever"
Come-on everyone sing. ;)
If vamps were real. I would love to spend some time with Vamp
Willow. Hmmm..that face, the red hair, those fangs..... I have
to go now :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> hey now -- Solitude1056, 19:40:20 07/15/01
Sun
(tried to post this twice already, and it didn't appear - at all.
bizarre. I am NOT taking the hint, people, so you can cut it out!)
*cough*
As I was saying, I gots da first dibs on Evil Willow. The rest
of y'll are just gonna hafta wait yer turn. Bwahahaha!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: hey now -- Slayrunt, 20:55:22
07/15/01 Sun
Where's the line start? I gotta get in it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> right behind ME! ;-) -- Solitude1056,
05:47:58 07/16/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> Sol, let me get this straight, you
only want Evil Willow, facinating......:):):) -- Rufus, 23:11:43
07/15/01 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, I'm not hard to
please. -- Solitude1056, 05:53:59 07/16/01 Mon
I just like the leather pants. Except SMG in leather - she still
looks good-girl-ish, even in black leather. She tries, and gets
points for that, but she just can't smoulder like DB, ED, NB,
or AH. Come to think of it, AD cut a fine figure in the riding
leathers (though I've always wondered: if he was fired, how did
he swing the BMW R90, anyway? or did he have it hidden the whole
time he was in Sunnydale & still wearing suits with little bowties?)
..
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: hey now -- Shaglio, 06:40:14
07/16/01 Mon
Dammit! I don't read the message board over the weekend (only
when I'm at work) and now I'm so far down on the VampWillow waiting
list! This isn't fair.
I think the women of this posting board are going to tear me to
shreds for that last paragraph.
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