December 2003 posts
Benson at 'Buffy' and 'Angel' convention in Dublin, Ireland.
-- Liam, 08:49:28 12/15/03 Mon
On Saturday, 13th December, there was a small 'Buffy' and 'Angel'
convention in Chief O'Neill's Hotel, Dublin, Ireland, with Amber
Benson (Tara McClay) as guest of honour. Unfortunately, she was
unwell at the time; but she managed to turn up and spoke for a
while, something all of us there appreciated _very_ much.
Before that, we saw all of 'Chance'. It was an amusing, interesting
film, with shades of 'Ghost World' and 'The Opposite of Sex'.
Certainly, I've seen far worse films, like the new 'Matrix' one.
Also, it has a few ideas that could be used by 'Buffy' and 'Angel'
fanfic writers. :)
This was what Amber talked about:
What was it like, being an actor and director in 'Chance'?
She was helped because there were of a lot of good people there,
such as James Marsters and Andy Hallett. In terms of her acting,
she wanted to make sure that she remembered her lines. It was
'a lot of fun' and a 'good experience'. The film was shot over
10 days, stretched over 5 weekends. Joss was 'very supportive',
allowing some scenes to be shot on a couple of the 'Buffy' sets.
In terms of someone taking up acting:
If it's not your passion, don't do it. If so, go to school, study
drama, and have something to back you up if it goes wrong.
Her best 'Buffy' experience:
The musical episode in season 6. She and Michelle Trachtenberg
'lobbied a lot' for it. Nicky Brendon and James Marsters were
'OK' about it, as they could both sing.
When she was recording Tony Head's CD:
Things were 'very off the cuff', and she found that she 'could
sing very high'.
Her decision not to appear as Tara in 'Conversations with Dead
People' in season 7:
She said that she refused for two reasons. First, due to conflicting
dates. She was doing 'Ghosts of Albion' for the BBC at the time,
and didn't want to pass on the opportunity. Second, she felt that
Tara's end was 'very stressful'; and her agreeing to her coming
back (even as a manifestation of the First) would not be the right
decision because many people had invested so much in the character.
(She had read letters to that effect.) She summed up her choice
with: 'You never know what the right decision is'. At the time,
she felt that what she did was 'the right decision'.
What was it like, when she was first on 'Buffy'?
Things were 'a little tough'; because she was working with people
who had known each other for 31/2 years; but they were 'a good
group of people' to work with. She had worked with Seth and Eliza
before and was looking forward to working with them again; but
she then found that their characters had left the show!
It was 'hard' coming in and taking over from Seth's character,
as he was 'one of the funniest people' she had worked with; but
she was amused that her character was involved with the same person!
About working with the BBC on 'Ghosts of Albion':
She found the BBC's approach different, they being 'more about
the people than the product'. She is 'a perfectionist', who wants
things to be done as perfectly as possible.
The hardest bit in her journey to become an actor:
Walking into a room, giving 150%, and not getting something because
you are told you're not blonde enough, thin enough, etc. She liked
working on 'Buffy' because there was an emphasis on good work.
She has a new 'Ghosts of Albion' in the pipeline, as well as something
[> Thanks Liam -- cougar, 09:04:37 12/15/03 Mon
[> Interesting! Thanks. -- Pony, 09:23:20 12/15/03
Last night on Strong Medicine Juliet Landau
-- Ann, 10:21:00 12/15/03 Mon
Juliet Landau was on Strong Medicine last night playing a mother
whose daughter had seizures. She did a strong portrayal but she
certainly has a Drusilla-like quality to everything she does.
She uses hands and finger movement as a reflection of her mental
state. Did it as Drusilla and did it last night as her child's
placement with her was in jeopardy. It was nice seeing her. She
should do more.
I don't usually watch Lifetime but was clicking around and saw
her. Just had to stop and watch.
Casting spoiler -- Kate, 14:35:16 12/15/03
Subject: TV Guide online confirms no SMG on "Angel"
Here's the link to the story:
Kind of a bummer, but I can understand in some ways too. Maybe
next season . Or better yet, in a few years she'll change her
mind and do a "Buffy" movie!! (A girl can hope, lol.)
Anyone seen the Japanese film her new project is based on?
Date Posted: 14:11:28 12/15/03 Mon
In reply to: Kate 's message, "TV Guide online confirms no
SMG on "Angel" this season" on 12:51:26 12/15/03
On the one hand, too bad. I miss Buffy and it would be a lovely
boost for AtS during sweeps. On the other, if AtS is coming back
for a 6th season I think having SMG on this year would be a frustrating
exercise in angsty status quo. I don't think ME would want to
lessen the tension of their triangle any time soon so I don't
think Buffy's appearance would actually give us resolution for
any of the issues her presence would raise. I must must must get
some Buffy on AtS before the series ends but I'm hoping that will
be next year.
Buffy's Forgiveness -- Claudia, 15:45:06
While perusing teh forum's archives, I came across some interesting
discussions about the church scene between Buffy and Spike in
"Beneath You". One topic that caught my attention was
Spike's mention of Angel's name.
In this particular post, someone - I forgot who - had pointed
out that Angel was at the heart of both Buffy and Spike's reactions
to the latter's new soul. This person also pointed out that Buffy's
main problem in Season 3 was her belief that Angel was not responsible
for "Angelus'" actions in late Season 2, despite Angel's
comments that he "was" responsible. The member also
added that perhaps deep down, Buffy may have never truly forgiven
Angel . . . and perhaps, herself.
After watching "Chosen" for the third time, I am beginning
to wonder if Buffy had ever forgiven Angel, myself. Note her reaction
to Angel's outburst regarding her relationship with Spike:
"BUFFY: You're not getting the brush-off. Are you just going
to come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?
ANGEL: Aha! Boyfriend.
BUFFY: He's not. But... he is in my heart.
ANGEL: That'll end well.
BUFFY: What was the highlight of our relationship- when you broke
up with me or when I killed you? I'm well aware of my stellar
history with guys and no, I don't see fat grandchildren in the
offing with Spike. But I don't think that really matters right
now. You know, in the midst of all this insanity, a couple of
things are actually starting to make sense. And the guy thing...
(sighs) I always feared there was something wrong with me. You
know, because I couldn't make it work. But maybe I'm not supposed
Why did she bring up her "true love's" past Sunnydale
crimes and throw it in his face? I don't know. Perhaps she was
irritated by Angel's behavior. Or was there more to it?
Giles is another whom I wonder if Buffy has truly forgiven. I'm
sure that we all remember the door slammed in his face by Buffy,
after his and Robin Wood's failure to kill Spike in "LMPTM".
Yet, Buffy's hostility toward her ex-Watcher continued in both
"Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places". When Buffy
returned to the house on Revello Drive in "End of Days",
she seemed to have forgiven everyone for rejecting her in "Empty
Places". And yet . . . Giles was the only one who had received
any kind of censure over what happened:
"BUFFY: Yeah, I figured that one out when I King Arthured
it out of the stone.
WILLOW: So maybe it's like some kind of traditional Slayer weapon.
GILES: I can't imagine how something like this could exist without
my having heard of it.
BUFFY: Well, the good guys aren't traditionally known for their
At this point, Giles looked away with a guilty expression on his
face. And in "Chosen", Giles was the only person whom
Buffy had informed on who had saved them in the Hellmouth:
" (Bus pulls over. Buffy comes off the roof and Dawn tackles
her in a hug)
GILES: I don't understand. What did this?
Mind you, she had only spoken one word. Yet, there seemed to be
a touch of acid in Buffy's voice, when she answered the ex-Watcher's
All of this has led me to wonder if Buffy had truly forgiven Giles
for the events in the last episodes of BtVS S7. If so, are her
feelings linked to the fact that he has yet to show any remorse
for conspiring to murder Spike . . . and betray her?
[> Re: Buffy's Forgiveness -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:51:01
Not quite understanding the beginning of your post. The post you
refer to concerns Buffy's reaction to Angel's deeds as Angelus,
whereas the "Chosen" examples you bring up concern her
reaction to his souled actions (breaking up with her, getting
jealous of Riley). Not saying I don't think Buffy holds some resentment,
just don't see the purpose of tying the two together.
[> memos -- skeeve, 11:38:24 12/16/03 Tue
The good guys have had communication problems before, ones that
didn't involve Giles betraying Buffy.
Remember that 'Buffy' paper I wrote for media
class? -- Rob, 15:54:07 12/15/03 Mon
I GOT AN A+!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[> What 'Buffy' paper? -- CW, 15:58:56 12/15/03 Mon
Kidding... Congratulations, Rob!
[> Yay! -- Pony, 16:25:56 12/15/03 Mon
See? Obsessions do pay off!
I hope that you'll try and get it published somewhere.
[> Mazol tov! Is it available to read somewhere? --
Cheryl, 17:04:43 12/15/03 Mon
[> Congratulations -- lunasea, 17:12:27 12/15/03
That means you are going to be in chat again, right?
I take it you had to still present it today. How did that go?
[> go rob!!!!!!!!!!!! -- anom, 17:58:15 12/15/03
Mazel tov!!!! So I guess the praying for snow worked, but you
didn't need it anyway? @>)
[> Way to go, Rob. -- fidhle, 19:07:46 12/15/03 Mon
It is an excellent paper and you well deserved your grade. Now
you have to get it ready for publication :-)
[> [> Good for you! Looking forward to reading it...
-- jane, 21:35:00 12/15/03 Mon
[> Wow! -- KdS, 23:42:38 12/15/03 Mon
Congratulations, and hope the presentation wasn't too stressful.
[> [> Re: Way to go, Rob! -- Brian, 05:35:07 12/16/03
[> Shaking a pompom in a restrained English way -- MsGiles,
04:34:07 12/16/03 Tue
[> Stitch that -- Celebaelin, 05:49:05 12/16/03 Tue
Nice one Rob. Do you get extra credit for the sixteen exclamation
[> Re: Remember that 'Buffy' paper I wrote for media class?
-- MaeveRigan, 09:13:42 12/16/03 Tue
You're my hero! Wish you were my student!
[> Nice! Congrats, Rob! Now, when do we get to read it?
-- DorianQ, 16:52:22 12/16/03 Tue
[> Thank you with great muchness, all! (Answers to peoples'
questions and a NOTE TO MY CHAT BUDDIES) -- Rob,
21:57:29 12/16/03 Tue
Those of you who were wondering how my presentation went...it
didn't! Or rather, I didn't. We were hit by a snowstorm on Sunday,
and although it had stopped snowing by Monday morning, the roads
were still extremely wet throughout the day and refroze at night.
I e-mailed my professor, explaining that I didn't feel comfortable
driving to class, because it would be an at least 45 minute drive
home over a bridge at 11 p.m. in very icy conditions. I asked
that considering I had been prepared to present two weeks ago
and had not been able to due to situations I could not control
(she had forgotten to reserve a DVD player for the class, so I
couldn't show the clips I'd been planning to present and discuss!),
the fact that my paper was over 20 pages longer than required
and that I had already provided her with the clips I was going
to show, and the fact that the reason I couldn't present last
night were also due to circumstances beyond my control (the weather),
if she would consider not marking me down for the presentation.
I even enclosed the script I had been planning on delivering.
She wrote me back in less than an hour, telling me I got an A+,
that she was sorry I wouldn't be able to present, but that she
was so impressed with the work and recognized that I had been
fully prepared that she herself would show the clips to the class
and lead a discussion based on my notes. And wouldn't take any
points off for my not doing the presentation myself. Ironically,
once I heard that, I kind of wanted to do the presentation ("Well,
if she likes me that much..." my gloaty brain began thinking),
but it really was too treacherous for me to get there. And perhaps
the best part of all...she had never seen "Buffy" before
my paper, but read the entire thing in one sitting and told me
she now plans on watching some more. That's right, I've converted
my professor into a Buffy fan! And that alone was worth all the
Those of you who would like to read my paper...please e-mail me
at email@example.com, and I can either send you a copy or
the link where I've posted it on-line. For now, I'm not posting
at the board, because I'm trying to submit it to Slayage and I
want to wait for word back from them. Thanks to those who suggested
I do that. I remember Ponygirl definitely did, and I believe a
few other people.
Those of you who miss me in chat (and believe me, I miss you guys
even more)...I am currently halfway done with my film class paper,
which started out for almost a week being about one thing, which
didn't end up working out so I spent the last four days completely
rewriting and researching the whole paper on a completely different
topic. That is why I've been so completely unreachable. I'm still
unbelievably stressed at the moment. In fact, I shouldn't be taking
the time to post this now. But I just want you guys to know that
I haven't abandoned you...I just get completely tense when I have
a lot of homework and can't focus unless I fully cut myself off
from all walks of human life till I'm done. I swear, I haven't
spoken to any of my RL friends either for the past week. I grunt
at my mom every now and then, and call to order Chinese food.
I've only been out once to buy some Channukah and Christmas presents
for people. The only other times were to go to class. I am a total
shut-in at the moment. But I hope to be finished with the paper
on Friday. So I swear, this hellish time will be over soon. I
will be back for a glorious month of uninterrupted chattage (and
I might even go out during the daytime sometimes and hang out
with friends and play in the snow wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!!). I love
100th eppisode (SPOILERS) -- spikenamored,
20:46:28 12/15/03 Mon
did any of you guys read the spoilers for the 100th episode on
spoilerfix.com? i'd just like to point out that i do not like.
Cordelia just leaves, just like that, by herself, in los angeles.
I mean, she has the visions; whats she gonna do, help the people
in her visions by herself? i think they should havemade this a
two parter for resolution to the character. She was a major player
for the entire series and it takes a one eppy send off to send
her packing? disrespectful in my book. They could at least say...i
dont know, im going to go help buffy with my visions and have
andrew escort her to where they are. it just seems really incomplete
and a just a plain bad ending to a wonderful bright character.
She could have had so much more potential...please give me your
[> Please DO NOT post Future spoilers on this board, use
the spoiler board for that -- tom, 06:03:30 12/16/03 Tue
[> [> There was a warning in the subject line, though,
so it wasn't such a bad offense. -- Rob, 07:33:44 12/16/03
[> Future spoilers are allowed... -- Masq, 10:24:08
...as long as you clearly indicate that they are future spoilers,
which you did just fine. We have a link above to a spoiler ("trollop")
board run by an ATPo poster, which is where lengthy discussions
of future spoilers should take place. Mostly this is because future
spoiler threads might lead an enthusiastic poster to accidentally
put a future spoiler in a subject line.
But no worries about what you did do.
Saint Buffy? -- fidhle, 20:56:32 12/15/03
Should Buffy be made a Saint? check out:
[> Re: Saint Buffy? -- Ames, 07:58:57 12/16/03 Tue
As manwitch so cogently pointed out in his post on why we like
BtVS, there's a strong tie between the story of Buffy and the
stories told by many religions, probably because they both satisfy
some deep human needs. It's therefore not surprising that Buffy
could be viewed as a religious figure. I doubt she'd qualify as
a Catholic saint, but set her story in the 14th century with appropriate
changes for the time, and she probably would.
[> Re: Saint Buffy? -- skeeve, 11:26:03 12/16/03
In terms of sainthood, I thought the article was content-free.
I wonder if coming back from the dead would qualify as one of
the necessary miracles.
'Twouldn't go on a prospective St.Willow's miracle list, because
Willow wasn't dead yet.
A prospective St. Angel might have coming back from the dead as
one of his miracles.
Unlike Buffy, he seems to have returned without mortal help.
[> [> Re: Saint Buffy? -- Dlgood, 08:37:51 12/17/03
Specific miracles aside, it's the sustained sacrifice of self
in the name of duty, almost on a daily basis over the span of
[> Re: Saint Buffy? -- frisby, 12:48:28 12/18/03
with season 5 she sacrificed herself to save the world
with season 6 she was resurrected (not complete until the 22nd
& with season 7 her new church begins
so she already "is" a saint
Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs in French
or Spanish? What fun!! -- Artemis, 00:50:30 12/16/03 Tue
First off, I don't speak another language but I enjoy foriegn
So I found it so much fun listening to Buffy in French and Spanish,
with English subtitles.I particularly enjoyed the French version
because the acting (which is just as much voice as it is physical
presence) was far superior.
It seemed as if the French actors tried harder to follow the intonations
of the Buffy writing style and had a better flow of the comical
and dramatic readings of the dialogue for each character.
The actress who played Buffy had a poignant yet strong quality
to her voice. There was a richness to it, yet she could turn a
phrase with the quickness of SMG. I did not feel this with the
Spanish version of Buffy.
I watched S5, "Forever" tonight, in French and watching
SMG and MT beautifully played final scene with the voices of two
excellent french actresses made me cry.
The voices for Willow, Anya and Xander were great too. I even
thought that this is what NB might sound like if he was French.
For Those who didn't like the Glory character. You might find
you enjoy her more in French.
Spike took a little getting use to. JM delivers his lines with
more varied intonations than the French actor. But after I got
use to this really deep voice the French Spike had, I was better
able to enjoy his vocal energy. However I really have to give
the Spanish actor, more credit for his Spike. When he said, "I
love you" to Buffy in Crushed followed by the lines "I'm
drowning in you Summers.... I just about melted. He wasn't great
in anything else but he blew me away with that line reading.
The most amazing thing was that I found myself laughing at the
way they turned a phrase. In some of the funnier episodes like
"Intervention" I didn't just laugh at the words which
of course are funny, but the way the actors said them.
If you haven't tried watching Buffy this way, check it out. If
you have tell me what you thought. Maybe you liked the Spanish
[> Re: Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs in French or
Spanish? What fun!! -- The Sorcerer, 04:20:38 12/16/03
I have and agree that the French acting is far superior the Spanish
in that respect. The Spanish actors just do not seem to be willing
to stick with the script and timing thereof as the French are.
(So much for Anya's theories on the French, eh? Hey. I should
watch that episode in French.)
In any matter, I wonder if the dubbers get any credit or recognition
in their home countries for their work? After all, Buffy is pretty
popular in the non-English speaking countries, so I wonder how
involved and starstruck the dubbers get.
[> [> Re: Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs in French
or Spanish? What fun!! -- Marc Bastide, 08:16:37 12/16/03
I am French, and I can tell you I can prefer English version.
The french text is sometimes so far from the english that most
of the jokes are lost. And you have so many characters with the
same voice, like the guy who dubbed Riley was used for secondary
characters for all previous 4 seasons that it was disturbing,
when you re-watch older episodes.
I can tell, with what I read from French forums, only those who
do not understand English at all stay on French version.
The names of the dubbers are indicated at the end of the episode,
but who read that? Only the most fanatics even know the name of
Funny note : in Restless, the text said in French (very bad) by
Giles and Anya have been dubbed in Arabian ...
[> [> [> Re: Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs
in French or Spanish? What fun!! -- MaeveRigan, 09:21:00
The french text is sometimes so far from the english that most
of the jokes are lost.
Thanks for this commentary, Marc. It confirms what I suspected
after watching an episode or two in French, though my French is
The linguistic style of BtVS seems so distinctive, that I've often
wondered how well it comes off in translation, and whether its
popularity in Germany, France, & Italy is primarily due to the
power of the narratives themselves and the appealing characters,
or whether most people watch it in English, if possible.
[> [> [> Interesting -- CW, 10:36:58 12/16/03
Especially the bad French in Restless. I'm a specialist in Slavic.
When Glory and the monks spoke Czech in No Place Like Home, I
could understand every word of it. But I honestly had no idea
what language they were speaking (I was guessing Polish).
[> Good way to practice a language -- mamcu, 09:48:08
I agree that the Spanish and French dubbing is terrible, but I
do it sometimes to try help myself keep in practice with those
languages (not like I'm fluent--just trying to pick out words
here and there). Wish they'd have a Mandarin track!
[> [> Not just good, best way ever, for me -- shambleau,
13:49:45 12/17/03 Wed
I have seen every ep (except AtS's last three seasons) ME has
produced multiple times, so I know what's being said in almost
every scene. It's a wonderful way to bring your aural comprehension
level back up to speed. It's been close to twenty years since
I lived in France and while I can still read French and get a
good deal of it - listening? Not so much. Or not until I started
listening this way. I haven't tried listening to a French news
broadcast or a non-dubbed movie lately, but I know I'm better.
It'll be interesting to see by how much. I plan to continue, too.
What a painless way to bring back my French!
I've been watching S5 and Firefly lately. Several of the dubbers
for Firefly seem off to me. Book has a much deeper, more authoritative
voice, Wash, a less assertive, quieter tone, while Mal's dubber
is pretty close, as is Inara's. For Buffy, I agree with the evaluation
of the dubbers others have noted, and I'd add the one who does
Willow too. And Oz sounds just the same! Giles and Anya don't
come off that well, though.
I did read interviews with a couple of the French dubbers on a
site some years ago, in French. It was after S3, I think. They
loved doing the show, by the way.
[> Buffy Soundtrack (spoilerish?) -- The Sorcerer, 06:09:15
I absolutely love a lot of the background soundtracks, but am
having a hell of time locating them or their titles, if they even
For instance, I love the sountrack to scene where Willow opens
up a can of whoop-ass on Glory in Season 5's "Tough Love",
but I cannot find a name to it. The heavy brasses remind me of
ancient Egypt for some reason.
I also love the vocals and orchestral music behind the menu Language
& Audio submenu on "The Body" menu. I know this certainly
would not be on a soundtrack in and of itself, but I recognize
it from a scene in BtVS. If I recall correctly, it's the scene
in "Real Me" where Buffy is performing that wonderful
acrobatic feat of doing a one-hand-stand on a wooden block in
the teaser. Simply beautiful is the only way to describe it.
fiction netiquette? -- MsGiles, 08:37:03
I mentioned playing about with plots a bit back? Well, one just
turned into kind of an episode. I guess in terms of creating a
new building from the bricks of the existing episodes and characters,
it's rather in the garden shed league, but I have this insane
desire to post it. It's not War and Peace (now there's a thought),
it's about 7000 words, and it's in the form of a script (that
was less work, because I don't have to describe so much) and I've
tried to weed it for trolls, Sues, typoes and gross violations
of character. It's sort of set between S5 and S6. So what should
I do? Could I post it here? Or on a fanfic board? Should I get
it beta'd first, and who would do that? (gulp)
[> Re: fiction netiquette? -- The First Naughty Virtue,
10:27:13 12/16/03 Tue
Fiction set in the Buffyverse is what the Fictionary Corner of
the Existential Scoobies is all about. Send it to LadyStarlight
or use the submission form here.
At the moment though, her computer time is limited so it may take
a while to get it up there. [muses: maybe we need a backup system
Meanwhile, I don't see why you can't post it here. 7000 words
isn't that long (not by our standards, anyway). [grin]
As far as beta-reading, it's certainly not a requirement, but
there may be some of the people on this borad who would volunteer?
[> [> many thanks, will do. I also asked the Scoobies:
-- MsGiles, 01:42:57 12/17/03 Wed
This is what they said:
Xander: Just go ahead. Or maybe not. excuse me, I have to get
Anya: (brightly) Go ahead and post your little opus (encouraging
smile). No-one will read it.
Willow: Publicly? Um, probably not. A bit scary.
dark Willow: (glares and incinerates post with glance)
Tara: If you post, that's not wrong. And if you don't post, that
not wrong either.
Giles: On a computer? No, no. Why not write a book?
Spike: Sod it, just post the bugger
Buffy: (counselling mode) That's wonderful! You should do it!
What was the question?
[> Here goes. 'Dust Settles' part 1 -- MsGiles, 02:25:43
The question that started this was, how did the mess left in The
Gift get cleared up? It seemed like an awful lot had happened
in the six weeks odd between The Gift and Becoming
Please point out mistakes and things I've forgotten. I'm new to
this game. Suggestions for how to make it better also welcome.
I've copped out rather by doing it as a script - this means the
reader has to imagine the actors playing it, so you do more of
the creative work. Or I could spin that, and say I've deliberately
used this form to open up a creative space in the work for the
expression of individual imagination.
Either assume that this takes place in a parallel universe where
the last shot of The Gift was the group at the bottom of the tower,
or start with the final shot of the gravestone and dissolve into
the intro sequence as a sort of flashback.
Previously on BtVS clips: Glory&Dawn, monks, coma, Tara&Glory,
Buffy&Dawn on tower, sunrise, leap
(About 10 am on the morning of the leap. Industrial area, wreckage,
creaking sounds. Glory's tower is outlined against the risen sun,
barely visible in the glare. Cut to a shot looking down from partway
up the tower. Giles is at the base of the tower, looking up. Then
a panning shot from the tower, showing a mass of people, moving
slowly away, mostly crawling, limping, groping.)
Giles (vo, shouting, stressed but trying to put on reassuring
voice) Just hang on, hang on a bit longer. I know you're hurt,
but you'll be alright. Now, don't do anything sudden. Just hold
tight, and we'll get you down. Stop a moment and breathe deeply.
That's it. That's better.
(OH shot of Giles, looking up, as bar detaches and crashes to
G: (increased nervousness) Don't worry! Don't let go. We won't
let you go. You're getting down. Can you hear me? You have to
(Giles shields his eyes as the sun hits his face, peering into
the tangle of struts. Distant sirens gradually added to the creaking
G: You're doing very well, very well indeed. No! Don't move suddenly.
Listen to me, Dawn, move very slowly and go to your left. Reach
that big bar on your left. That's it, now take hold. Good! Now,
carefully does it. One more step and we'll be there.
(Refocus to show Dawn, clinging to the tower)
D: I can't
G: (firmly) Dawn! Look at me! Look into my eyes. Good. Now, just
to your right, there's a bar. Do you think you can take hold of
that? Take hold of the bar, Dawn. Good girl. Now stop a moment,
breathe. That's it. Right, next move ..
(Dawn shutting eyes)
Ambulanceman VO: What happened here again? An accident? What do
you mean, they don't know? This is a populated area, and I've
got an emergency situation. This is a major incident. I can't
understand why they don't know! Tell them we need the area cordoned
(Somewhere nearby, emergency services in the background. Ambulanceman
talking on radio. Shift pov to show Willow standing to his side)
AM: (to Willow) Are you responsible for these people? Where the
hell they all from? (on radio) I need more people, I'm telling
you, we have a major incident. (to Willow) What the hell has been
happening here? (to colleague) Treat for shock. Get them in the
vans. (to Willow) Do you know anything about this? Did you call
us? Where was the accident?
(people sitting or crawling all around, staring vacantly into
space. They look blank, some are swaying and moaning slightly)
W: (innocently) I just came by, I saw all these people, I-I heard
noise, (bright idea) an earthquake maybe. I don't know where they
came from. I need to find someone ..
AM: I'll need your name (turns to get clipboard. When he turns
back, Willow is no longer there) Hey!
Crazyperson: (suddenly animated) Gone, gone, all gone. Lost ..
(Further over on the tower site, away from the road, Xander is
crouching over the buffybot, which is twitching and buzzing slightly.
He is adjusting the head, which appears to be taped on)
bot: (fzzt) Hello. I seem to have a malfunction.
Anya VO: Don't worry, Buffy. We'll mend you. We'll get you sorted
out. (agitated) Why won't she answer?
(Xander looks up.)
X: An, come over here and help me
A: We can't leave her
X: An, come here
A: (agitated) This is bad, Xander. I feel bad things, and I think
Buffy's dead. Why are you over there? We must get her to a hospital.
We should give her resuscitation. We need a defibrillator. I've
seen it on ER. What are you doing? Help me, Xander!
X: (very patient, controlling himself) An, come over here. I need
you to help me here. Willow fixed it up, but I'm not sure it's
working properly. We may need it (he gets it on its feet, where
it remains standing, unsteadily. Duct tape is clearly visible
round its neck. Anya reluctantly comes over). Just take the weight.
bot: (fzzt) I have sustained damage. However, I am repairable.
Do you wish me to provide diagnostic report?
X: Great. Take the bot back to the flat and wait there for me.
Go on, I'll be OK, Anya. You'll be Ok. Go on. (kisses her forehead).
A: It's heavy, Xander! I don't want to be on my own! Oh! (An goes
off with the bot, unsteadily).
bot: My gyroscopic stabilisers are at 2% effectiveness. My fighting
capability has been shut down until repair is performed. My Spike
servicing capabilities are 10% operational. (fading into distance)
My head is insecurely attached...
(Xander slowly turns towards towards the tower. As he starts to
walk, a small cloaked shape jumps on him and knocks him to the
ground. He picks himself up, finds himself facing a minion. He
grabs it and punches it away, only for several more to run past
him, kicking his legs on the way. )
X: Ow! (he turns to look after them, then starts to run, limping)
end of prologue
( M tracking shot of Tara, wandering alone though industrial buildings.
Willow comes round a corner, into camera, and walks beside her,
taking her arm. As the camera tracks, we see the tower looming,
over the top of buildings. The occasional police car whines past.
W: Where are you going, Tara? Are you wandering off again? Are
you still OK?
T: Everything is strange still. Where have I been? (they walk)
We were building, weren't we? I'm tired. When did day come? Everything's
ended, hasn't it? Or has it? (startles, unfocussed) The door is
closed, and it won't open any more (weeps).
W: Hey, easy does it, baby. Come here.
T: Willow, you're here. Where are you, Willow?
W: You're with me, baby. The world hasn't ended yet. You'll be
better soon, I promise. We have to get you away from here. All
hell is breaking loose back there. It's not as bad as all hell
breaking loose, though. Let's keep walking. Can you keep walking?
T: They want to go home.
W: (sadly) We all want to go home. I want you to come home, Tara.
Come with me now. Are you still here with me? We need to hurry
just a little.
(Giles at the base of the tower and Dawn on the structure. Dawn
is nearly down, reaching down to Giles. )
G: Now, put your foot on that bar, by my hand. That's very good.
Now move your foot a little. That's wonderful. (shakes hand and
(Suddenly Dawn slips, and falls the final few feet, with a gasp.
She knocks over Giles. They pick themselves up. At this point,
several minions rush in to grab Dawn. She reacts, gets to her
feet, manages to shake them off, and climbs up the structure again,
much quicker than she came down. They start climbing after her,
and then the whole thing gives a mighty creak. A bar falls. Everyone
Minion1: Get her! We'll be late! We'll be too late!
M2: (dubiously) We'll get squashed. And it's already too late.
Dawn (panicked): No!
Xander (catching up) Hey!
(They start climbing, but a bar hits the topmost minion on the
structure, and it falls off. Pull back, we see Giles has thrown
the bar. he picks up another, and hits another minion. One jumps
on his back, he backs it into the tower. Dawn grabs a bit of metal
and hits the fingers of one climbing up to her, and it falls off.
Xander comes up with them, grabs the minion on Giles' back and
punches it hard. The remainder of the minions give up and run
G: (throws down the bar, looks up the structure. He thinks all
the getting down bit is starting again) Dawn?
(A small shape nearly knocks him over again - it's Dawn, who is
back on the ground. She grabs hold opf him in a hug)
G: Good girl. (detaching himself) How are you? (notices the stomach
cut) We need to get you home. Where's Anya?
X: (hesitantly) We need to ... there are people arriving .. (looks
over towards the tower, swallows).
G: Take Dawn home and go to the Magic Shop. I'll handle things
here. Hurry. The police will have their hands full for the moment,
and Glory concealed the tower, but we haven't got long.
(as Xander departs with Dawn, Giles goes towards Buffy's body,
taking off his coat)
Police voice: Stop right there!
( Willow and Tanya face a policeman. )
W: Can we help you, Officer?
Cop: This area is closed to the public.
W: My friend was feeling ill. I was just taking her home.
C: (suspiciously, to Tara) Ill?
T: (with effort) I'm just .. a bit wobbly. There was, I think
there might have been an earthquake, you know, a tremor (smiles
optimistically but not very convincingly).
W: She hit her head, but she's OK now, really. Nothing serious,
she just needs to sit down. What's going on, officer (best innocent
C: (frowns, then distracted by radio call) You must vacate the
area. (starts talking on radio)
W: Yes, of course, officer. We'll be on our way then. (they hurry
(Xanders's flat. Anya and bot, in the bathroom. Anya is wiping
its face. )
A: Stay still! Stop buzzing. We might need you, so you'd better
pull your electronic self together. You're all the Buffy we've
got, now, you .. you electric thing.
b: I require service.
A: Self, self, self. You robots are all the same. My head hurts
and (looks in mirror) I'm cut. *I* require service. (dabs at face)
A: stop it! Go and sit down! Now. (bot goes) Wait! Don't leave
me on my own. I might be concussed. I have to stay awake. (following)
Talk to me!
( cut to A and b sitting on the sofa )
A: .. and so I asked Xander about it, but he didn't seem that
interested. How could he not be worried? I know it was only a
small wart, but he should have looked at it. It could have been
a cancerous growth. You know I wonder if he really understands
being human. He doesn't realise how fragile he is (pause) and
I am. You wouldn't understand, not being human.
b: (buzzes slightly, and lights flicker where it's cut)
A: (talking faster) But I intend to earn enough to get proper
medical care for when I get older. They can do a lot, you know.
It's not like it used to be, strap half a pig on it and hope for
the best. Giles needs to get me proper insurance, because that
shop is a death trap. Workers have rights. Do you know I get electric
shocks off the cash register? (They sit, A pauses to look at bot
A: (tearing up) You look a little fused.
b: I have limited functionality at present. (pause) I have good
Slaying capabilities. I kick ass.
A: Do you think I should marry Xander?
b: (fzzt! psszz! clic!) You are a remarkable person, Anya
A: (surprised out of her teary fit) Do you think so? I am rather
unique. But Xander ..
b: You are so strong! I always feel I can rely on you.
A: Why, thankyou, Buffybot. I am not always valued for my abilities,
b: You are misunderstood. Anyone would be attracted to you.
A: Why doesn't Xander always see that? He says he loves me, but
then he gets irritated, and has to go put up shelves.
b: That was my sympathy program. Would you like me to run that
A: Do you have a manual?
( A little later, in the Magic Shop. Willow has Tara sat at the
table. Giles comes in from the back room, wiping his hands on
a rag. )
(stops, hesitates, starts again)
W: er .. what ..
W: (more forcefully) What?
G: There is a protocol to follow. (looking down) It's not .. it's
not as if this is an .. an uncommon eventuality in Watching circles
(takes off glasses, wipes eyes with rag)
W: Having temporary sisters who are keys to dimensional gateways
that let invading hellgods open the universe to the forces of
darkness is common?
G: No, no. I mean .. (gestures to back room)
W: Ah. What do we have to do, Giles?
G: (sighs) We can't tell the authorities. The forces of darkness
are too strong, around the hellmouth. Only fear has been keeping
them back. Fear ..
W: .. of the Slayer
W: So we have to hold them off until (thought) until the next
G: It's more difficult than that. Buffy is .. was .. no longer
the official Slayer. After she .. (looks down a moment) .. that
honour passed to Kendra, and then Faith. Faith is not able to
be with us at the moment. She has troubles of her own. No. (looks
up) We're going to have to manage somehow. Until we can think
W: (not happy) So what *are* we going to do now? You're saying
all the nasties are going to be coming for us, once they know
there's no Slayer? Maybe I should be working on a spell, a protection
spell. Or maybe I could seal the hellmouth. Even ..
G: The energies around the hellmouth make magic very unpredictable
here, Willow, I don't necessarily think that would be a good idea.
We might need something a little more .. physical. Sadly, we cannot
match the fighting abilities of a Slayer, even working together.
(thinks) I will have to contact the Council. Perhaps they can
find us some temporary - ah - assistance.
T: Has something happened to Buffy? (they all turn to look at
her) Where is Dawn? Does Glory have Dawn? What's been happening?
It's coming back. I was waiting for Willow, I think I went to
sleep. I had a nightmare. How did I end up walking where you found
W: I brought you back. (looks at Giles)
T: It was a nightmare ..
(they look at Tara)
Xander's flat, Xander and Dawn have arrived back. Anya cleaning
Dawn up, bandaging.
A: There, Dawnie! Good as new! Good as new in a cut-to-bits way,
that is. Here (helps her into bathrobe) I'll even let you get
body fluids on my new bathrobe. What a lucky little ex key you
are! Now come over here, sit there, and don't move suddenly.
A: Buffy .. Buffy's fine (unconvincingly. Looks helplessly at
Xander) Buffy, Buffy..
D: Buffy jumped!
A: Yes, well. Buffy's dead. (Xander jumps, Dawn looks stunned).
But she's fine. She's dead, but she's fine. She's as fine as you
can be when you're .. dead.
D: (panicking) Glory!
A: Quiet now. Ben's dead too. You see, Ben was Glory, and she
turned back into Ben, and Glory was bad, but they were leaking
into each other like, oh, like two leaky things, and Giles, you
X: (softly) Buffy!
A: (consoling, then losing it) Stop! People die! It's what they
do, they die. You'll die too! I'll die! George Clooney will die!
(crying). When I'm dead I won't have a job any more. No money
and no sex.
D: I should be dead!
A: You shouldn't have been here in the first place. Why did those
monks have to go and mess everything up? Key this and Key that.
Sorry. Would you like some juice?
A: What? You need to have fluids when you're in shock. Dawn is
in shock. Her sister, who was our only protection against the
forces of darkness, has just died to save her, and she's in shock.
bot: I fight evil, and I am cool.
(they turn to look at it)
bot: I am shutting down now. Please perform service operations
and restart. Thankyou! (clic)
( In the Magic Shop. Giles is on the telephone. Willow is comforting
G: Yes, of course. Yes! (irritated) I'm sure you have the essentials.
I'd rather not, no. Have you ..? Ah, I see. Well, what is the
alternative? (pause) Have you called LA? Oh. Oh, I see. If that's
the best, then yes. Indeed. (annoyed) I'll call again when you
have the file! Thankyou very much!
(puts phone down)
G: They're sending the nearest available help. I'm not sure they
appreciate the seriousness of the situation here. Apparently they've
been having some trouble abroad , in .. ah .. in the former Soviet
Union, this time, and they can't spare much attention. They send
their .. uh .. condolences.
G: They're sorry.
W: They're sorry (nodding). (then alarmed) So what do we do now?
G: A helper is arriving in three hours. Willow, can you meet him?
He can stay at Revello Drive.. (in response to pained look from
Willow) er .. make him up a bed on the couch. Tell him the essentials,
and I'll be over later on. I .. I have a few things to do.
(Revello Drive, the hall. Willow comes in through the front door,
with Crocodile Dundee type in tow, complete with hat, waistcoat,
leather pants, bandolier with stakes. They go through to to living
room, where Tara is sitting on the settee)
W: Hi. This is Colly.
[> [> part 2 -- MsGiles, 02:27:12 12/17/03 Wed
W: Colly, this is Tara, she ..
C: Pleased to meet you, Tara! Pardon me, but have you got any
food? I guess we'll be out hitting the hotspots tonight, I could
murder a bite to eat. What do you have for hotspots here, then?
Graveyard? They had me watching the crem up in Denver. You wouldn't
believe how many come to on the conveyor belt, and break for it
when they feel the heat. Can't get far of course, hide in the
drapes. Phew! So you guys are on your own (look at them dubiously).
They tell me the hellmouth is quite something.
W: Come through to the kitchen, and I'll find something. Will
you be OK on the settee tonight, after patrol? You could have
Buffy's bed but ..
C: Oh, don't worry about me. Got a porch? I'll be fine out there.
(unshoulders bedroll). Food'd be great, though. Got any beers
in? I'd kill for a beer (winks, follows Willow into kitchen).
( Kitchen. Willow gets a beer out of the fridge and gives it to
C: Fill me in on Sunnydale, then. You get a lot of apocalypses
starting here, I take it? Those Watchers seemed pretty uptight
about the whole deal. Couldn't get much sense out of them, to
be honest with you. Dealing with Watchers .. phew!. Those guys
are so much up their own backsides ... they pay well, though.
W: You wrestle alligators?
C: No, no, what gave you that idea?
W: Well, the .. clothing maybe?
C: Fair point. It's cover. No-one questions a guy with corks round
W: You're a spy?
C: Got recruited by the Council when I was at college. Idealistic
student, keen to fight evil, that sort of thing. I was at Brisbane
Uni, herpetology research. Couple of papers on toad poison, before
I gave it all up for this business.
W: (interested) Oh. Toads? I have a kind of .. professional ..
interest in toads. (Colly looks up) Eye of toad, you know..
C: Witch, huh? So so what species gives the best eye?
W: Eye? er .. toady .. warts .. crawly .. I've no idea, really.
But I'm sure it's very interesting!
(Giles on the phone, in the Magic Box)
G: (annoyed)I'm sorry, but it's not really very satisfactory.
I don't want to criticise your actions .. well, actually I *do*
want to criticise. Most forcefully..
(pause) That's unfair. Very unfair. And unhelpful. The immediate
danger from the gateway may have passed, but..
(pause) (very annoyed) I think you're being incredibly shortsighted.
The forces on the hellmouth in Sunnydale form a global threat.
It's only the *amateur efforts* you refer to that have averted
a more serious situation building up over the last five years.
And the gateway ..
(pause) You don't have to remind *me* of my current status.
(pause) No, I haven't been over here too long, I'm just speaking
(long pause) Very well. If that's your last word.
(pause) Oh, I will, I will. As soon as I can manage it.
(pause) And you! (phone down hard)
Holds phone down on handset, looks into the air for a long moment,
G: The Council are so .. so .. (lost for words) .. up their own
backsides! (pause, cleans glasses)
(thoughtfully) Maybe I have been over here too long.
(the graveyard )
Colly is patrolling, beer in one hand, stake in the other, Xander
walking a little behind him.
C: .. and then there was this big bastard one time, caught me
without stakes, you know? Talk about shitting bricks! (Xander
looks interested) Don't know how I got out of that one. (he looks
disappointed) Never worked with a Slayer, heard a lot about them.
Oh, I've done my bit for the Council. Mainly observing, though,
stuff like that. Spying, I guess. Lying low, staying outta sight.
Bit of housework, now and again.
X: (incredulous) Housework?
C: Y'know, dusting.
(Vampire jumps Xander)
X: (falling over) hey!
C: No worries! (Jumps on vamp and pulls him off. Tussle ensues.
They disappear behind gravestones, X following. Thumps, grunts.
The vampire jumps up on a gravestone, and then dives down again.
Xander hovers, trying to get a stake in. Eventually C emerges,
rather the worse for wear.)
C: Struth! They're mean bastards for sure. Y'got many like that?
X: (not wanting to offend) er .. Watch out!
(another vamp jumps C and he goes down again)
(Revello Drive, living room. Colly is having a cut patched by
Willow. Xander and Anya come in with bot (carried) and Dawn, limping)
C: Hi there! Good to meet you! Giles?
C: (more quietly) This the Slayer?
W: Oh .. ah .. that's .. that's the Buffybot.
C: Robot lookalike, huh? Fantastic! You must all be pretty cut
up about all this. (Spike comes in) You Giles?
A: (aside) Is that the Buffy substitute?
W: No! Not the substitute. He's just helping out. He works for
A: What do they think we have? Crocodiles?
W: (quietly) He's more for the toads, actually
S: (quietly to Dawn) Dawn?
A: We've got her bandaged up. She's no use now though. Why is
she still here?
S: (to Dawn) It hurts. (Dawn nods. She doesn't trust herself to
W: (realising) Dawn, come upstairs, you need to lie down. Don't
worry, we'll stay with you. (Tara and Willow help Dawn out of
(Giles comes in)
G: Spike, can you ..
(Spike goes out)
G: Ah .. Xander, can ..
X: Giles! This is the help (waves at Colly)
G: How do you .. can you ..
C: Good to see you, mate! Can I have a word?
(ushers Giles into kitchen)
C: I know I've only just got here, Giles, mate. Don't know how
to say this. It's not just the vamps, I can handle myself, but
something here feels bad. I dust the odd vamp here and there,
y'know, but this hellmouth .. well, this is a bit much. I'm putting
a report in, think they might take a bit of notice. Do my best
to help you fellas out, put a word in, I've got a few contacts,
y'know?. Just not much use to you in the stake department. All
respect to you people, no worries, but I'm off. Thanks for the
beers! (Colly goes out the back way, picking up bedroll)
G: No worries.
(Night. Tara, in pyjamas, going down the stairs at the house.
She lets herself out, and walks into the night. A structure is
being built. A huge crowd of subdued people are carrying scaffolding
and bricks. The thing towers into the sky, it looks like the famous
painting of the Tower of Babel. Tara walks into view carrying
a brick, and looks at it. Ben comes up to her)
B: (urgently) There are no foundations!
(the ground shakes, and the tower totters. Now Tara is on the
tower, looking over woodland. (POV Tara) The tower continues to
creak and shake. It seems very high. Glory is suddenly close,
in the structure of the tower)
Gl: Does my butt look big in this?
(the tower starts to fall. Tara hangs on. As she hangs on, slipping,
suddenly she sees Glory even closer)
Gl: (in Dawn's voice) Take me home.
(Tara wakes with a start. Willow is leaning over her)
W: You are home, Tara. Tara, wake up, you are home.
(Tara and Willow downstairs, Willow giving Tara a hot drink)
T: I think there was Dawn, and the tower. I can't remember. Willow,
do you think Glory might be still in my mind? Do you think she
could have left a bit of herself in there, somewhere?
(Willow looks worried)
T: In my dream, Glory became Dawn
W: Dawn fought back, Tara. Glory didn't control her. The monks
gave her a mind of her own.
(Dawn, letting herself out of the house, coat on, then walking
in the night. Sounds of distant alarms, shouts and sirens. She
comes to the tower, now cordoned off. She looks up at it for a
while, then walks on, unresolved. Sounds of wind in the trees,
an owl hooting. She walks in woodland. She stops in a clearing
lit by the moon, and the sound of a distant pipe filters through.
It's a mournful flute, a Japanese tune, a long sinking note with
a little flourish at the end. Dawn stops and listens for a moment.
Fear goes through her eyes. Branches seem to touch her face. She
breaks and runs, falling over tree roots and stones. The roots
seem to grasp her legs. She cries out)
[> [> [> part3 -- MsGiles, 02:28:14 12/17/03
(back at the house. the door bursts open, Dawn rushes in, slams
the door, rushes to the sofa (where the bot is recharging, plugged
in to the mains) hides her head under the cushions. Willow comes
in, in pyjamas, sits down and puts her arms round her. Tara follows,
a few minutes later)
W: Dawnie, Dawnie, what's wrong? What happened?
(Dawn can't speak from terror, but she buries her head in Willow's
arm. Willow and Tara look at each other, over her head)
W: Is there something out there? What were you doing out, Dawnie?
You're not well.
T: It's not Glory. Willow, I'd know.
D: So scared. All alone.
W: Not alone, Dawn, not alone.
bot: I am not alone.
(they look at it)
bot: I can rely on Spike. (It smiles peacefully and switches off
W: I think I should look at that. Dawnie, why were you outside?
You need to rest, you know that. Where were you going?
D: I .. I was in the woods. I wanted to go into the woods. Giles
.. Giles said Buffy was going into the woods. She'll be there,
Willow. She'll be there on her own. I wanted to see ..
W: Dawnie .. (hugs) We'll all go, we'll go tomorrow. We'll go
in the sunshine, Giles will show us the way. Not in the night,
all full of scary things.
D: Willow .. was she my sister? Was she really my sister?
W: Of course she was! Wasn't she, Tara. She was your sister, your
loving sister. And you were hers.
(woods, day. Giles and Xander, carrying shovels)
G: Here. I think we're far enough out of town now.
X: Under this tree? With the view?
G: It hardly ..
X: I know, I know, Mr Sentimental Idiot here. Just tell me to
dig and I'll dig.
G: (Polishing glasses) You're not the only one.
X: (panic) No! Don't go emotional on me, Giles! Stay buttoned
G: (sighs) Dig here.
(they start digging)
X: (stopping) What are we going to do, Giles? How are we going
to cope? This is futile! We can't be doing this. We can't carry
on. We should give ourselves up! It's hopeless without .. without
G: Buffy relied on us. We relied on her. Now we need to rely on
X: The Watchers don't care. The police are running away. No-one
G: You've been listening to Anya.
X: Well, she has a point. (starts digging again) I don't know.
I don't know what to do. I don't know what's right.
G: I think perhaps Willow..
X: Willow is not Buffy, Giles. She's not a Slayer.
G: She's stronger than you think (stopping and wiping glasses).
She has skills which may help us ..
(Willow and bot. It still has duct tape)
W: There .. that should restore the factory settings. Now, when
I restart you, the imprinting process should boot up, and our
friend Spike should be out of your system. You will be so over
him. He will be history, buffybot. You are your own bot, now Let's
(bot flickers etc., starts to look aware)
W: Hello buffybot.
bot: Hello. I am Buffy. I am pleased to meet you. What are you
W: I'm Willow.
bot: Hello Willow. I like you. Tell me everything about yourself.
W: Well, er .. I'm your friend.
bot: You are my friend, Willow. I am so happy. What would you
like me to do? I have many default programmes to give you pleasure,
and I can also learn new ones. I can also make light conversation,
be interested in your hobbies and cook simple but tasty meals.
What would you like to do next, Willow? We could have some fun
W: (taken aback) I think I might .. switch you off again (does
T: (coming in) Isn't it working?
W: Oh, it's working, it's working .. a bit too well. (Tara looks
puzzled) I haven't got used to Buffy being dead, I certainly can't
cope with her coming on to me. I mean the bot.
T: Can you change it?
W: I think so. I hope so! (they look at bot)
(night, near the newly dug grave. It might be just possible to
see a coffin, among the trees near it)
Spike (vo): Are you sure this is deep enough?
Xander (coming out of trees): Should I dig some more?
S: I'm joking, moron. (he climbs out of the grave). She won't
be getting out of this in a hurry. (dusts himself down)
X: Not funny. (collapsing) I don't think I can dig any more, anyway.
So where were you when there was work to be done? Not around,
S: So I haven't been there for you. Oh, bad boy Spike. As if I
X: You haven't ever been good. Just out for yourself. Now you're
S: Oh, and I suppose you ..
Giles (coming through the trees) Is everything ready?
Bot (behind him): I am so happy to help you, Rupert. You are such
a good teacher. I will train every day. Hello! Are you Rupert's
G: Down there. Carefully, now. (they go to the coffin) Now wait
there. (looks up) Are Willow and Tara here yet?
X: Willow wanted to find some book. She's bringing Dawn. What
on earth ..
G: Is Dawn .. should Dawn ..
X: She wanted to come, Giles.
(the low, eerie note of the flute floats across. They fall silent.
The note floats again. They move together slightly, we can see
the whites of their eyes. The night seems to grow a little darker,
the trees to crowd in. Only the bot is unaffected, smiling happily
S: What the bloody hell was that?
(Back at the house. Willow is surrounded by a pile of books. Tara
W: It was here somewhere, I'm sure of it. It just seemed so right.
Of course, then I didn't know .. but I thought of Buffy. When
she was in that coma. Oh Tara, she can't be gone! Can she? She
was in the coma .. but she came back. I brought her back. I always
brought her back. This isn't right.
T: (asleep): Nearly there ..
W: (starting to cry a little) But it's in here somewhere. (giving
up, sits down, snuffles) I should go. We should go, Tara. Tara?
(the door bangs open, and Xander, Giles and Spike burst in. Spike
shuts the door and locks it, then stands at bay behind it. Xander
goes to the weapons chest, throws an axe to Giles and takes a
club himself. They all stand tensely facing the door. Slowly they
all realise that nothing is following them, and start to relax,
and then they stand there, looking and feeling foolish.)
W: Why are you here?
T: What are you frightened of?
S: (gesturing to door) There was .. um ..
X: It was after us ..
G: A big scary ..
G: Nothing. (throws weapon down) Nothing was after us. We panicked.
X: There was something. What was that music?
S: (rolling eyes) Yes! We were chased by the wind section of the
W: And it made you run all the way back here? (realises) Where's
Buffy? Buffy's body?
G: Oh my God!
X: (to Spike) You left her!
S: WE left her. Me, you, Yoda here and .. wait
G: The Buffybot!
W: You left the bot? Out in the woods? With Buffy's body?
G: Now .. er .. don't worry. I'm sure they will be .. (peters
X: (voicing all their thoughts) We'd better get back!
Dawn: (limping in, all bandaged, but dressed to go out) I think
you should look at the news.
(in the woods. The bot is sitting on the coffin, looking optimistic.
The flute music plays. The bot smiles, absently. A shadowy figure
becomes partly visible, in the shrubs behind the bot. It's hard
to see, but there is an impression of a sharp, handsome male face,
with a goatee and possibly small curling horns (it's hard to make
out, in all the curly hair) he looks a bit like Craig David, and
moves with a loose, fluid step. He comes forward, behind the bot,
and puts an MP3 player down.)
Pan: A music lover. Like the tune?
bot: I am waiting for Rupert. What are you called?
P: Hey, that would be telling. You're a cool one, for sure. Rupert
has run away, I think. You're not running, I see. I wonder why.
You don't scare easily. You're quite a babe (runs hand along its
bot: Rupert said I should wait. I am not usually scared, but I
can be if Rupert wants to protect me. You should not touch me
unless Rupert says so. I cannot upset him.
P: Loyal and beautiful .. but dumb, oh so dumb. (runs hand up
bot's neck, where the duct tape is) And, I think, perhaps not
human. Pity. (sighs) I like it when they run.
bot: Do you know where Rupert is?
(It turns, Pan is gone. The flute drifts faintly through the trees)
bot: Rupert said I should wait. I always do as Rupert says. Rupert
will soon come back.
Giles: This may take a while
(the scoobies, booted and coated, face a large area of stripy
tape, on the edge of the woods. The flickering of police car lights
is visible through the trees.)
[> [> [> [> part 4 -- MsGiles, 02:29:42
Xander: Direct is best!
(he picks up the tape to go underneath. Immediately a spotlight
falls on him and a siren starts up)
X: (dropping it) Maybe we should try subtlety.
Spike: Sod this. (he picks up a rock and hurls it at the spotlight,
X: Or then again .. (they all run into the wood, leaving shouts
and sirens behind them)
W: So what do you think caused all those kids to panic? They all
seemed to be describing something different. But it sounded scary.
The police have taken it pretty seriously.
(they are walking in the wood)
X: I want to know what they were doing in the woods in the first
place, at that time of night. Up to no good. (sees Dawn looking
at him) Probably just picnicking.
W: In the middle of the night? (sees him looking at Dawn) Yes
.. I guess that's it. Midnight feasts. Marshmallows.
Dawn: I reckon they were making out. (they look at her, she gets
embarrassed) It's .. just a thing .. you know .. (trails off)
Giles: Well, we're through the cordon, but I don't know if this
is the end of our problems.
W: What do you mean?
G: The place is crawling with police, now, and Spike's bit of
helpfulness won't have helped. They'll assume the worst.
Anya: Particularly if they find a body and an open grave ..
Spike: (looking at Willow) And the bot, asking for Giles ..
W: It needed a person to focus on. Not you. So we tried Giles
S: (turning away) I wouldn't have it anyway.
Tara: (hastily) perhaps we could distract them?
G: Any idea how?
T: (thinking) They want a demon .. maybe we could make a demon
X: Great idea! We haven't got many problems at the moment. Lets
conjure a demon and it can attack us, and everyone can have fun.
T: No .. I mean .. an illusion
G: Not a bad idea. (stops, polishes glasses) Do you think you
and Tara could bring up a harmless but terrifying illusion, Willow?
W: Are toads warty? (checks herself) I mean, we could maybe try
a small spell ..
G: Good. Carry on.
S: I'll just go ahead, then. (stomps off)
W: (worried) I'm not sure it's a good idea he sees the Buffybot
on his own just now.
X: Why, do you think there might be some Spikey love left in its
wires after all?
W: No, no, it's more .. he's upset.
X: How do you tell? By the antisocial behaviour and bad smell?
(Willow just looks at him)
X: I'll just go and check on the bot. Good luck with the ooglie
D: (running after) I'll go with you
(near the grave. Spike is lighting a cigarette. When we refocus
beyond him, we see the bot, seated with its back to us, and beyond
it the grave. A moment later, there's the loud noise of a helicopter
flying low, and a spotlight shines across the clearing. The bot
stands up, smiles and waves)
S: Oh-Oh (he puts out cigarette) As spotlight goes, he walks up
S: Better move
bot: I have to wait here. I am waiting for Rupert.
S: Well, that's very good. But it's not going to be too healthy
here in a few ..
(numbers of police burst from the bushes. Shouts from loudhailer)
Hailer: raise your hands above your head and move into the light
(Xander and Dawn in the woods)
X: I recognise that tree, I'm sure I do.
D: That's because we passed it ten minutes ago
X: Head up this hill, then we can see where we are
D: I'm tired, and it's up. Can't we go down?
X: Just a bit further (he goes up the hill. Dawn, not wanting
to be left alone, follows)
D: Wait, what's that?
X: That loud thumping noise? It's me having a heart attack.
D: No! Not that! Stop! I'm scared! It's dark!
(he stops. In the distance, they hear the flute)
(In the clearing. A policeman grabs the bot)
bot: Please let go. I have to wait here.
Police: You're coming with me
bot: I'm sorry, but I can't do that.
P: We'll see! (grabs her)
(bot twists out of the grip, armlocks him and kicks him across
the clearing. Other police go to grab her, she throws one into
the next, trips another with a low spinning kick, kicks the gun
out of the hands of a third. A couple of police grab Spike: he
attempts to hit back and collapses in pain. A policeman punches
the bot in the face, and it staggers, holding its neck)
bot: system failure imminent!
(the flute sound drifts through the trees. The police stop what
they are doing and look around, in growing panic. So does Spike.
As the music continues, the police break and run, wildly, into
the woods. Spike also runs, arms over head, and falls into the
bot: Rupert ..(it shuts down)
Pan: (in the shadows, softly) Such a pity.
(Spike starts climbing out of the grave as Xander, with Dawn behind,
come through the trees)
X: Spike! What are you doing in there again? No, don't tell me!
(Spike just looks at him)
D: (catching up) What happened? We got lost. (looks at Xander)
We didn't get lost, we just took a longer way round. Why are you
in that hole?
(Spike finishes climbing out, goes to the bot and nudges it with
S: Don't make 'em like they used to.
X: Did you hear anything?
S: Same as before. Tune. Everyone ran, knocked me in there (gestures)
X: Ah. You weren't scared then? Didn't run?
S: So why were you two hiding in the woods for so long?
(Giles, Willow, Tara, Anya arrive)
G: You're here, good.
D: Did you do the ooglie thing?
T: (glancing at Willow) they're all ooglie booglied
W: But not by us. At least not all. The police had a total panic,
they were all running and crashed some of their vehicles.
T: (smiles) Then they found they were running from their own shadows.
W: That was clever of you (smiles) We think none of them want
to admit they panicked so badly for no reason, so they decided
to pretend nothing happened. They were telling people to go home
when we left. So why were they all running in the first place?
What scared them? What scared you guys?
X: Whatever it was, we're OK. We're still here.
(pause. They collect their thoughts)
S: (nonchalant) I'll be off, then
W: Why? Aren't you going to stay?
S: Got to go. Dawn.
D: (nervously) What about me?
(Spike gestures. The sky is indeed beginning to lighten) Be seeing
you. (he looks towards the grave, then backs off into the woods)
G: Very well. We'd better do what we need to do.
(pull back and up, as we see the group around the grave starting
to organise themselves and move the bot, lit by the sunrise. Birdsong
fills the air - the dawn chorus)
(Willow and Tara, in the sunshine, on a bench in a park)
T: I don't remember much. Everything seemed busy, wild, but I
couldn't understand. I'm so glad it's over, that you got me back.
(anxious) I was in the mall yesterday, Willow, and I found myself
looking at a pink frock. That was so weird. Do you think there's
anything of her left in me? Can you feel it?
W: You seem the same to me (they smile)
T: Did she touch your mind, when you did the .. you know, when
you did the .. thing?
W: I felt something go through me. She was strong, Tara, so strong
.. but then it left, and I felt fine. Better than ever! As if
she even gave me power! (Tara looks worried) And you were back.
T: But we lost Buffy.
W: No! No, not .. lost. We didn't lose her, she just .. moved
on. She's out there somewhere (sighs). I feel as if she's still
with us, watching us..
(Tara clasps her hand)
T: You did so well, you know. You're amazing.
W: It wasn't enough, Tara. When I brought her back from the coma,
I thought ..
W: I thought - this is horrible, Tara - I thought, she shouldn't
have needed me. She was the Slayer, Tara. She had no right to
run away. I know it was because of Dawn. But how could she run
away from us like that? We were all her friends. She left us to
die. It's so bad of me to think that.
T: You're not bad, Willow. You helped Buffy, you helped her all
W: I needed to do better.
(Giles on the phone)
G: Hang on a moment, I'll see if I've got the number... Yes, that's
it... I know, but I have a few things to finish first. No, not
much. Willow Rosenberg - yes, temporarily, at least. I'm sure
(Willow and bot)
bot: You are Willow. You are my friend, and I can chat with you
and play scrabble quietly, and I can patrol for vampires with
(Dawn and Spike, walking near the house)
Dawn: She said, the hardest thing about life ..
S: .. is not getting another go. I wouldn't know, love, I'm not
D: But you were! I'm glad you're dead, anyway. You can't die,
like everyone else.
S: We're here. In you go.
(Dawn goes in)
S: Night, then.
(Xander and Anya, cuddled together)
A: Poor Buffy. All alone in the cold.
(Night in the woods. Buffy's gravestone is just visible in moonlight.
The camera pulls back, and shows Spike, sitting on a log, watching.
He is quite motionless and expressionless)
Angel and Spike - Lack of Balance -- Claudia,
09:37:20 12/16/03 Tue
While many of the show's fans are arguing over who deserves the
Shanshu more - Angel or Spike - has anyone noticed something about
Spike and Angel? Both souled vampires possess traits that seem
to veer in an extreme manner.
Spike tends to look outward for some kind of definition and Angel
tends looks inward too much. Spike tries too hard to connect to
others and Angel has a tendency to be too much of a loner. Spike
relies so much on his heart that he tends to be impulsive and
impatient (his worse trait, in my opinion). And Angel relies too
much on his head and his tendency to reflect on matters leaves
him distant from any emotions or instincts he might feel.
Just as Buffy needed to stop depending upon the Scoobies to represent
the Heart, Brains and Spirit traits of the First Slayer (I know
I'm going to get a rap on the head for that remark) and utilize
all those traits, herself; both Spike and Angel need to stop resorting
to extreme ways to find self-awareness and learn to find some
kind of balance within themselves.
[> How I see Spike and Angel -- Sheri--who abstained
from the internet for a whole 8 hours!, 11:50:52 12/16/03 Tue
They're like two sides of a coin, yin and yang, a couple of salt
and pepper shakers, Laurel and Hardy, and, um, other things that
come in pairs. The extremes in one character helps to illuminate
what is going on with the other character.
My hope is that we'll get to see more scenes like the one earlier
this season (sorry, too lazy to look up the title), when Spike
and Angel were sitting on the couch and talking. They might
be complete opposites, but even in their opposition they converge
when it comes to fears and hopes: Can I be redeemed or will my
past always be there?
Angel's ongoing pessimism in regards to whether it will *ever
be enough* is met by Spike's *why wasn't that enough*.
I see them coming to the same conclusion from opposite ends of
the spectrum. Angel lets Spike know that there might not be a
big reward at the end--hopefully helping to focus Spike's motivation
better. In turn, Spike's belief that redemption is not only possible,
but deserved, can hopefully help Angel to regain his hope and
confidence in himself.
I'm crossing my fingers that the arc for the season (I'm spoiler
free, so please don't tell me if I'm right or wrong) will be about
Spike and Angel converging together from their opposite ends and
realizing that the journey to redemption is the big reward.
That the drive to improve themselves has already made them "human",
and that the Shanshu stuff is about the metaphor of what it means
to be "human" and not about the physiology.
[> [> Re: How I see Spike and Angel -- Jaelvis, 14:31:54
I like your idea, Sheri, that the Shanshu is about what it means
to be human rather than physiology. I think that may be what it
means. If there is an "official" shanshu, I hope it
goes to Spike who realizes that since he got his soul on his own
he has already "shanshued" and that he gives it to Angel.
Spike is a lot more free than Angel right now. There is nothing
to stop Spike from living happily ever after. Sure, he would be
a blood drinker for eternity but hey, even human life is far from
perfect. For Angel, living happily ever after means that he loses
his soul. It doesn't necessarily mean sex with someone he loves
either. If Connor were to come back and have a great relationship
with his father, then Angel's soul would be in jeopardy. His friends
(and fans) joke about his broodiness but, what is the guy supposed
to do? He can't allow himself to be happy EVER.
To me, the ultimate act of redemption for Spike would be to let
Angel have the shanshu so he CAN have some happiness in his life.
That would be a great gesture and a great sacrifice on Spike's
part for Angel. That act may heal a lot of pain in their relationship.
It would mean that Spike forgives Angel for making him a monster
and stealing Dru. For Angel it would allow him to forgive himself
for all the nasty things he's done to Spike and everyone else
[> [> [> Re: How I see Spike and Angel -- Claudia,
16:04:00 12/16/03 Tue
[To me, the ultimate act of redemption for Spike would be to let
Angel have the shanshu so he CAN have some happiness in his life.
That would be a great gesture and a great sacrifice on Spike's
part for Angel.]
Why should he? Why should Spike do this? Why can't Angel do the
same? And if I must be honest, does it really matter who gets
to Shanshu? Does it really matter if Angel or Spike gets to Shanshu?
Isn't it more important that both Angel and Spike achieve some
kind self-fulfillment and sense of balance in their lives without
worrying about the Shanshu prophecy?
[> [> [> [> I think that scenario could work equally
well either way -- Sheri, 17:10:55 12/16/03 Tue
But my pet theory is still that the Shanshu prophecy is not as
literal as they think it is. The whole Highlander-esque "THERE
CAN BE ONLY ONE" fight over the Goblet of Perpetual Torment
(oh, common, Mountain Dew isn't *that* bad!) has led me to believe
that they're looking for a prize that's already within themselves.
They can *both* be "human" (i.e., reconnect with their
own inner humanity).
But if Shanshu really is literal... how about this (just an idea
for the exact opposite to the scenario that Jaelvis hoped for):
Angel lets Spike have the Shanshu, this makes the powers that
be feel all warm and fuzzy and decide to make the *both* human,
they declare their love for eachother, move in together in an
apartment next door to their wacky neighbors Willow and Kennedy.
In my little fantasy, this will be the bases for Allison Hannegon's
new show on NBC this coming fall.
[> [> [> [> [> Now that's a show I want to watch!!
-- DorianQ, 17:26:11 12/16/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now that's a show I
want to watch!! -- Jaelvis, 11:40:28 12/17/03 Wed
Do you think anyone could talk David Boreanaz and James Marsters
into making a porn film together (it could even be soft-core)
to satisfy us Spike and Angel shippers?
Hey, a girl can dream can't she?
[> [> [> [> [> my little theories -- Ann,
08:29:48 12/17/03 Wed
That is just what I think: "that they're looking for a prize
that's already within themselves. They can *both* be "human"
(i.e., reconnect with their own inner humanity)."
One of my theories about Buffy is that her heart/soul is the place
of the final hellmouth battle. She will have to do battle there
to end all evil. When this battle, this gift of death is finally
accepted then she will be complete. I also think this holds true
for Angel and Spike. They need to accept this gift of their own
potential for themselves to find peace. These demons (within and
without) are an outward manifestation of their inner turmoil.
The Shanshu is a gift they can each give themselves.
else it means "sans shoe", without shoe, and when their
"sole/soul" is bared completely, they will have peace.
Same difference! lol
[> [> [> [> [> [> interesting! under your
2nd theory... -- anom, 09:59:03 12/17/03 Wed
"else it means 'sans shoe', without shoe, and when their
'sole/soul' is bared completely, they will have peace.
Same difference! lol"
...when Spike wakes up crying "I'm drowning in footwear!"
in Chosen, it means that despite the events in Get It Done, Lies
My Parents Told Me, & Touched, he's still struggling to deal with
having a sole--er, soul.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good catch! and spoilers
s.5 -- Ann, 10:37:19 12/17/03 Wed
Has anyone ever done an analysis of footwear on Buffy or Angel?
I think it might yield excellent metaphor!!
Considering that vampires cannot drown in water, then this exclamation
of Spike's has meaning that you refer to. I think Spike feels
the pain and struggle of his soul and what he has done, whereby
Angel feels the remorse for what he has done. Spike's pain is
fresh and new (hence the burning up in Chosen) where Angel has
lived with his pain for some time (hence the depression). Spike's
pain hasn't turned into remorse yet (and I think it is happening)
and one example of this is that he still wears that coat. Note
he was wrapping it tight around himself, and holding it with his
arms, when Fred is analysing his ghostiness in last week's rerun.
Not letting if fly around him with freedom and flair as usual,
he still needs to protect himself from this new reality and his
feelings about this reality.
He is on the good guys side but I think it will take him a while
to truly feel it and practice it some more and finally believe
it. Now that he is not a "ghost", it represents him
taking concrete steps toward that end. He has to firm up his resolve
to feel remorse much like his body had to get some substance.
What a great journey these two are on!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> wow, ann! you
got a lot more out of that than i put into it! -- anom, 22:34:44
"Has anyone ever done an analysis of footwear on Buffy or
Angel? I think it might yield excellent metaphor!!"
Actual footwear worn, or mentions of footwear in dialog? Some
instances count as both, like Cordelia & Lilah's discussion of
shoes in Billy. If anyone can figure how that's a metaphor, let
Yeah, I noticed how Spike clutched the coat around him in Just
Rewards, but I wasn't sure how to interpret it. Did he feel cold
(doubtful, now that we know he supposedly couldn't feel anything)?
Did he not like being scanned & analyzed? Was he afraid to find
out what the results would be? Later he does let the coat swing,
resuming his old swagger, but much of that is for show.
I like your comparison of Spike & Angel & your thoughts on Spike's
literal & figurative substantiality.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank
you-sometimes these moods overtake me (spoilers Buffy s.7, Angel,
s.5) -- Ann, 09:19:16 12/19/03 Fri
and my kids were not in the room.
I thinks all of those things you said were correct. He has never
liked being analyzed. That is not his strength. Thats more Angel-like.
Spike is a do-er. He sees a problem and tackles it. He wants Dru
back. He finds a solution. He wants Buffy back, he goes on the
attack. He wants to prove his soul to Buffy, he will die. But
the coat represents a lot of things to him (as discussed in numerous
threads), mostly strength I think, and he has always used it as
part of the greater image as slayer-slayer. It has become part
of him. His moods seem to eminate from that coat now. He starts
re-wearing it when Buffy tells him she needs his strengths as
a vampire despite his soul for the coming war in season 7.
He has never been one for technology (Initiative issues maybe)
- he is the poet. Fred is a new woman in his life and he doesn't
trust many. It takes a while. I think he was fearful of her in
part because she is the "scientist" and names herself
to him as such. He probably doesn't want yet another woman analyzing
I don't think he will ever feel cold again as he tells Angel (I
think it was) his memories of being burned up. Eye balls popping
ect. This is the warmth of his soul around him. Cleansing flames.
I think his burning up in Chosen is so important. It was a new
beginning for him. And more to be revealed. Yippie.
And I think it is great that he kept his "wacki" (I
don't know what one word to use) personality even with gaining
a soul, burning up and then coming back and then gaining substance.
Perhaps a lesson for Angel in his angst.
[> [> [> [> [> Loving the analysis -- Vickie,
11:36:06 12/17/03 Wed
But I doubt any of these will come to pass. This
being Mutant Enemy, and Joss Whedon's mantra being
"torture your characters", I'm thinking one of them
will have to die horribly, possibly sacrifice himself
to save the world/the other.
And the other one finally connects to his misplaced
and maybe takes off his footwear.
A Question of Faith and Xander -- DorianQ,
18:18:10 12/16/03 Tue
I was just wondering if Faith and Xander ever had a conversation
together after she broke oput of jail. They were leading a combat
team together in Dirrty Girls, but as I remember it, the last
time they had a major interaction, Faith was trying to rape and
smother him (Consequences I think) and that doesn't seem to be
something that Xander would forget, especially since that was
only his second time "with" someone, Faith was his first,
and soon after that, she switched teams.
I really hope that wasn't something that the writers glossed over
or forgot, especially since Faith was given a whole scene to flirt
with Spike in the basement, apparently just for pure titillation
value. That just seems wrong, considering Xander was having almost
zero screen time as it was, even before all the Potentials showed
[> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- angel_luver,
20:46:59 12/16/03 Tue
They need either Faith and Spike together...or Faith and Xander...i
wish Faith was on Angel or had her own spin off...but i still
love her new show Tru Calling:)
i only have seasons 1-5 on dvd of buffy but when i get the rest
of them...or see more re-runs i will be sure to let you know:)
[> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- phoenix, 09:44:45
I don't remember any real Faith, Xander interaction after she
came back, and I agree it is a shame and something of a missed
opportuntity. I have to give the writers the benefit of the doubt
as they clearly had a hell of a lot of stories to tie up in a
very short space of time, but I would have liked to see them address
what she did to him too. In fact if I was writing a list of my
top ten most disturbing Buffy scenes, Faith's attempted rape/murder
of Xander would right up there along with Willow flaying Warren,
only I actually find it more disturbing as it felt more real.
Ah, we'll just have to keep hoping for that spin-off (-:
[> [> they did touch on it -- Seven, 12:01:21
If you remember, at one point, Faith is talking to the potentials
about Anya and she says something like
"Every time she does that (goes off on a rant about Xander)
I just remind her that I had him first."
So they didn't forget about it, but I do agree that some kooky
awkwardness between them would have been fun, but not needed in
terms of things season 7 needed to address.
Hmm. Just had a random thought here. Us fans seem to have a concensus
that BTVS "jumped the shark" at season 6. That is, they
seem to be the least favorite seasons with the exception of a
handful of episodes from each. Most posters seem to love season
5 and see it as a worthy ending to the show. So my question is,
should Angel call it quits after this season? So far, I love this
season. Out of 8 eps, only LOTP and Unleashed are (sort of) disapointments,
so that's still a 6:2 ratio. If the season pans out that way,
we are looking at 16 great eps and 6 (arguably) bad ones. Not
a bad season. A potential season 6 could be up in the air though.
So what are everyone elses thoughts? Should ME roll the dice and
go on (satiating us fanatics) or should they quit while they are
ahead and preserve the integrity of the show?
I know I have generalized a lot in this post and I know not everyone
feels the same way about seasons 6 and 7 but I just thought that
I might address the situation.
So what do you all think?
[> [> [> Facetiousness -- Dlgood, 14:59:40
They touched on it, as much as they referred to Faith having slept
with Xander, but no exploration of the significance of that event.
Wich, is in large part applicable to Faith/Willow and Faith/Spike
as well. The parallel between Faith in S3 and Willow in S6, and
their efforts to reform themselves: ignored. The parallel between
Faith's relationship with Buffy in S3 and Spike's with Buffy in
S6, and their efforts to redeem themselves in their own eyes and
Buffy's - also ignored.
They did deal a bit with the significance of Buffy and Faith's
relationship - but not so much about how Buffy had behaved like
Faith once had, or how Faith was trying to be a better slayer
as Buffy of S3 was. Some of that significance was also ignored.
[> [> [> Re: they did touch on it -- heywhyont,
08:30:51 12/18/03 Thu
As someone who was doing through depression at the sametime as
season 6 was airing, I thought season 6 was great. It captured
well what depression is like. I really enjoyed season 7 as well
and loved how the series ended. By that is just my humble opinion.
Personally, I think Angel has another season or two left or more.
There is just so much to delve into.
[> [> [> I am not among that concensus -- ZachsMind, 07:53:57
Seven said, "Hmm. Just had a random thought here. Us fans
seem to have a concensus that BTVS "jumped the shark"
at season 6."
Just for the record, I do not believe in the consensus that Buffy
jumped the shark at season six. Buffy the Vampire Slayer jumped
the shark with the movie. BtVS redefined what it means to jump
the shark. I tire of this assumption: season six was no indicator
of weakness, any more than Vader's admission to Luke at the end
of Empire Strikes Back was an indication of weakness on the part
of the Star Wars storyline. A tragic hero must at some point hit
absolute rock bottom. That's what season six was all about. Season
six was Buffy's Empire Strikes Back.
I equate it with my favorite juggling team, The
Flaming Idiots. Gyro, Pyro and Walter. Three men who took
the worst fear of any jugglier, that of dropping pins before a
live audience, they confronted it, embraced it, and made it their
BtVS took jumping the shark, confronted it, embraced it, and made
it their trademark.
Buffy jumped the shark on day one, and dared the audience to find
it relevant. We're talking about a show where a high school cheerleader,
through no effort of her own, overnight suddenly becomes "chosen"
to defeat the forces of evil. We're talking about a show that
has terrible things happening in this California town not only
every week, but historically since the early 1930s, and no one
raised an eyebrow of concern, except those of course running and
screaming and being drained of blood.
We're talking about a show whose very premise was absurd, and
yet from that premise - that foundation - weaved some of the most
heart-wrenching, heart-pounding, sincerely heartfelt and loving
tales ever broadcast on network television. Compare the premise
of Buffy to those of Gilligan's Island, Bewitched, The Brady Bunch,
and My Mother The Car. Surely Buffy the Vampire Slayer is on the
surface just as insane and madcap as any situation comedy, and
yet the series creator and his crew of creative minds refused
to be limited by what had gone on before, or what the audience
wanted their efforts to be. They created believable characters,
ordinary people and put them under extraordinary circumstances.
Then they let the characters tell the story.
Jump the shark? You say that like it's a bad thing. It was one
of BtVS's strengths! It jumped the shark when it jumped the gate!
All hail the shark! The shark is dead long live the shark!
By season six, the series was just hitting its stride. The only
thing that could stop it was a lack of interest by its principal
performer. Had Sarah Michelle Gellar not sounded the death knell,
the show would still be going as strong as it always had. Critics
[> [> [> [> interesting and great take on the show,
but... -- Seven, 08:32:01 12/19/03 Fri
I love your view of the show and how "Jumping the shark"
has been Buffy's trademark, but even a show with that premise
can fall off. I enjoy season 6 and seven. They have many great
moments from some of my favorite characters who weren't around
in earlier seasons. (Anya, Spike, Jonothan).
The show is still better than most of the other shows out there.
What I wanted to know was were the last two seasons necassery
for the core characters?
Buffy could have been done
Willow and Tara? Maybe could have been flushed out.
Giles? Would have been a great lead in to "Ripper"
Spike? No. He had more to do. But he could have done it on Angel.
I think the main themes of these two seasons were great as well,
and that the characters were able to go through them in an entertaining
would the series have been better if it was only the 5 seasons?
I'm not sure
I like "Chosen" better than "The Gift" (OK,
everyone can rip on me as much as you like) I could have done
w/o DMP, AYW, and KIM and those are just off the top of my head.
So i suppose I'm conflicted. I just don't want Angel to go out
on a sour note. This season seems to be so good and I hope if
there are more seasons that they are just as good. I suppose all
I can do is Hope.
[> [> [> [> [> Chosen is better than The Gift
like cookies are better than fudge. -- ZachsMind,
11:17:09 12/19/03 Fri
Joseph Campbell would tell you that a true mythic hero must suffer
through death and resurrection. All the great mythic heroes do
in one form or another. Buffy died in season five. She comes back
in six and learns how to live again through seasons six and seven.
Could it have been done better? Arguably, that's a big perhaps.
Should the last two seasons never have been done at all? Bite
your tongue. =)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chosen is better than
The Gift like cookies are better than fudge. -- Dlg, 08:22:57
Joseph Campbell would tell you that a true mythic hero must
suffer through death and resurrection. All the great mythic heroes
do in one form or another. Buffy died in season five.
Yeah. She also died in S1.
[> [> [> [> What exactly is your definition of
'Jump the Shark'? -- Finn Mac Cool, 07:19:50 12/22/03 Mon
I thought the definition of a "Jump the Shark" moment
was when a TV show begins descending deeper and deeper into mediocraty
from which it can (almost) never recover. How then, if you didn't
stop liking the show, can you say it Jumped the Shark?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: What exactly is your definition
of 'Jump the Shark'? -- LittleBit, 10:05:15 12/22/03 Mon
I can't resist this link to the 'official' (and original) Jump
the Shark website and the page on BtVS.
It covers the categories or events that are usually believed to
be the defining moment(s) for jumping the shark. Word of advice
though...reading the comments can be bad for your health. ;-)
According to the site Jumping the Shark is "a moment. A defining
moment when you know that your favorite television program has
reached its peak. That instant that you know from now on...it's
all downhill. Some call it the climax. We call it "Jumping
the Shark." From that moment on, the program will simply
never be the same."
[> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- faith,
15:53:23 12/17/03 Wed
faith wasnt raping him...she was simply showin him that she can
do watever she wants to him, and that he would let her cuz he
wanted her to(who tha hell wouldnt lol). i love faith...too bad
she wasnt a regular in all seasons
[> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander --
DorianQ, 22:43:16 12/17/03 Wed
I would have to disagree. Saying that the victim wanted her to
do it sounds a lot like a copout to me. If Xander wanted Faith
to do it, I don't think Angel would have broke in and knocked
her out before she had a chance to do it. If the roles were reversed
and Xander was the superpowered being trying to smother Faith,
I know for a fact that the argument "She really wanted me
to do it" would not fly for a single second. Wow, that came
off sounding mean; however, I do think it is the truth.
[> [> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander
-- Finn Mac Cool, 11:37:45 12/18/03 Thu
Well, is it technically possible for a woman to rape a man? After
all, you could argue that, since men need to be aroused before
a woman can have sex with them, it's impossible for a woman to
have sex with a man who doesn't want to have sex.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander
-- DorianQ, 19:22:18 12/18/03 Thu
Actually, I have heard from a few people that if you strangle
a man that he will automatically get an erection, since getting
one is all about cutting off circulation to that area so it can
become engorged with blood. Stop blood flow anywhere in the body
near an artery (like in the neck) and a man is likely to get an
They can also get one for just being excited normally or sitting
funny and discussing this topic just got really creepy for me
so I'll just end it by saying just because someone wants something
does mean they really want it to come to pass. I want to kill
my parents sometimes. That doesn't mean I want to see them dead
and if they die I will be very depressed. It's like what happened
in BBaB when Buffy tried to seduce Xander; he wanted her too (very
badly) but not like that and he stopped her.
I really hope that made some sense.
[> [> [> [> [> [> a physical/physiological
reaction may not have anything to do w/what someone 'wants'
-- anom, 23:14:02 12/18/03 Thu
I'm trying to think of another example...well, if you're hungry,
even the smell of a food you don't like may make you salivate.
Our bodies can have reactions that have little to do w/what we
want--this conflict is clear in Buffy's reactions to Spike at
the beginning of Gone.
As for strangulation causing erections, somehow in all my years
of medical editing I never saw that mentioned. But I doubt it.
For one thing, strangulation cuts off air flow, not blood flow.
(Then again, I hear some people are into "erotic asphyxiation"...OK,
my turn to be creeped out!) For another thing, an erection happens
through dilation of arteries to increase blood flow, not by cutting
off circulation. The veins constrict to keep the blood from flowing
back toward the heart, but that's more of an, um, local effect.
So blocking an artery, anywhere in the body, doesn't seem likely
to cause an erection.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: a physical/physiological
reaction may not have anything to do w/what someone 'wants'
-- phoenix, 02:05:08 12/21/03 Sun
I have also heard that strangulation can cause erections. There
are quite a few cases of death every year caused be men practicing
auto erotic asphyxiation and getting it wrong--actually strangling
themselves rather than just getting the turn on...and now I'm
creeped out too.
Anyway, that was actually part of my reasoning behind my viewing
of that scene as I'm betting Faith would have known about that
effect. If you take into account intent, as well as whether something
is physically possible, that definitely looked like attempted
rape to me. Okay, my mind just went to a really disturbing place
that I'm not even going to inflict on the board.
Another thing which occured to me is to mentally reverse the genders
and see how the scene plays, it can often be an interesting experiment,
and demonstrates how many preconcieved notions we, or at least
I, really do have simply based on gender. If Xander was a woman(without
Slayer strength) and Faith was a guy what impact would the scene
[> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander --
phoenix, 09:32:00 12/18/03 Thu
That's really not what that scene looked like to me, and okay
I could be wrong, but the girl had really lost it by that time
and IMO if Angel had not made a timely entrance there could well
have been one dead Xander to add to Faith's body count. It certainly
didn't look like she was playing, and Xander didn't think she
was either judging by his reaction.
OT: How BtVS takes over your life -- leslie,
08:45:38 12/16/03 Tue
I am apartment-hunting, and today I am going to see an apartment--which
to be honest, sounds like my dream home--on Angelus Place. I just
keep wondering, "If I move there, will I turn evil?"
[> A soul is a small price to pay for a good apartment
-- Pony, 09:07:44 12/16/03 Tue
[> is it rent-controlled? @>) -- anom, 10:10:23
'Cause that can be an overriding consideration--just ask Cordelia!
Maybe living there will give you deeper insights into Angelus'
character that you can tell us all about. If it doesn't turn you
In any case, good luck in your apt. hunt!
[> Be sure to ask the manager -- Cactus Watcher, 10:16:51
if it comes with Phantom Dennis included in the rent.
[> [> Re: Be sure to ask the manager -- skeeve, 11:08:57
Dennis is probably rather lonely about now.
[> Helpful household hints from Hell -- Vyrus, 14:09:29
I just keep wondering, "If I move there, will I turn evil?"
Only if you experience any true happiness while inside the house.
I suggest painting the walls cinder-block gray, putting burlap
sheets on the beds, and playing country music on the stereo at
[> [> Re: Helpful household hints from Hell -- leslie,
15:53:51 12/16/03 Tue
Sadly, it was the apartment that was evil. Tiny, tiny evil. Fear
Demon evil. There's a reason Cordy could only find a spacious
apartment in LA if it was haunted. Some parts of LA (like the
nice parts of Venice), even a ghost wouldn't get you a break--the
landlord would just be thrilled at the turnover so he could jack
up the rent with each new vacancy!
Argh! This wouldn't be such an issue if I didn't own all those
damned books! Literally a ton, movers assure me. Curses upon literacy!
It's an addiction--worse than magic! (Though hey, all those spell
books, yes, they add up in the tonnage.)
[> [> [> Re: Books -- Brian, 03:50:44 12/17/03
I feel your pain. When I moved to Kentucky, I discovered that
I had over a ton of books as well. And they are very expensive
to move. But what can one do? If I don't have a large stack to
read, I become desperate, and must buy more.
[> [> [> Re: Helpful household hints from Hell
-- Gyrus, 07:23:24 12/17/03 Wed
>Some parts of LA (like the nice parts of Venice), even a >ghost
wouldn't get you a break--the landlord would just be >thrilled
at the turnover so he could jack up the rent with >each new
Yeah, my brother lived in Venice for a long time, and I think
he paid a pretty penny for the rent.
>(Though hey, all those spell books, yes, they add up in >the
Yeah, the D&D rules about encumbrance have always been tricky.
Why, my 3rd-level rogue/mage- Oops, was I still typing?
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen on DVD!
-- angel_luver, 20:48:16 12/16/03 Tue
Hey good news! League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is out on DVD
Now! You can Order this awesome DVD at www.foxstore.com. Here's
what the movie is all about...
Sean Connery stars as Allan Quatermain, the world's greatest adventurer,
who leads a legion of superheroes the likes of which the world
has never seen, in THE LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN.
Quatermain's extraordinary League is comprised of Captain Nemo
(Naseeruddin Shah), Dracula vampiress Mina Harker (Peta Wilson),
an invisible man Rodney Skinner (Tony Curran), American secret
service agent Sawyer (Shane West), Dorian Gray (Stuart Townsend),
and Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde (Jason Flemyng). Richard Roxburgh (Moulin
Rouge!) plays the League's enigmatic recruiter, M.
The League members are staunch individualists, outcasts in fact,
with checkered pasts and singular gifts that have been both blessing
and curse. Now they must learn to trust each other and work as
a team for the very hope of civilization. With little preparation
and no time to lose, they will be transported via Captain Nemo's
extraordinary submarine, the Nautilus, to the frontline of defense:
Venice, Italy. There a masked madman known as the Fantom plans
to sabotage a conference of world leaders by setting off a domino
chain of explosions, sinking the entire city.
The threat is catastrophic; the risks are staggering. THE LEAGUE
OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN has 96 hours to save the world...
If you guys want to have a chance to win L.X.G. on DVD go to these
If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask:)
[> My question: Why did the movie suck so badly? --
Pony, 08:49:13 12/17/03 Wed
The only thing I would do with that DVD is hit myself about the
head. A better question: when does the second graphic novel of
League come out in softcover?
[> [> It sank so rapidly I never got to see it --
MsGiles, 09:00:49 12/17/03 Wed
I haven't picked up anything specific, but the badness somehow
flows off everything surrounding it. Even the normally sound Connery
seems tainted. Has anyone seen it , who is still able to talk
about the experience? Was it worse than, say, Judge Dredd? Tank
Girl? Species 2?
[> [> Didn't Mind -- Claudia, 10:19:33 12/17/03
I'd rather liked "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen".
However, I hate the movie's design production. Most of the story
seemed to be set at night or in the middle of overblown-looking
sets. I liked the story, though.
[> [> [> My problem with the movie -- Pony, 10:44:04
Well, I have many many problems with the movie, but for me it
was all summed up with one thing:
Early on in the movie Allan Quatermain is compared to an old tiger.
Later on in the movie Quatermain encounters a tiger. He looks
at the tiger, the tiger looks at him. They look some more. Just
as the audience is about to scream "we get it, we get it,
it's the comparison from before," the tiger finally leaves.
Then another character comes out and says to Quatermain, you're
just like that old tiger.
That and I almost fell asleep during the action scenes.
Read the book, it's fab, and actually had fun with the concept
something the movie certainly does not.
[> [> [> [> Nail on head -- fresne, 11:00:36
I have a fairly low threshold for - look action movie go boom,
but um...yeah, tiger.
You'd think with the cast and the available plots, that well,
ah well. At least Dorian/Lestat was pretty.
[> [> [> There was a lot to laugh at... -- Sofdog,
16:26:58 12/17/03 Wed
It was breezy good fun. The hilarious way Mina Harker vamped out
and then pulled herself together while the guys were watching.
The way her hair and makeup kept changing during the last fight.
Straight, curly, up, down. To say nothing of spending the night
in a cave and coming out with fresh curls.
Loved the action. Car chase, martial arts (Middle Eastern, not
Asian). It was all quite fun for me.
Picked up the book, but find the rape scenes very, very... offputting.
They're scripted with a very British humor. And it just ain't
a funny subject.
[> [> It's out in hardcover? (Please, please, please)
-- KdS, 14:23:19 12/17/03 Wed
[> [> [> Yes! I saw it at Borders yesterday. I was
very pleasantly surprised... -- Rob, 21:16:49 12/17/03
...but unfortunately didn't buy it because I only had enough money
put aside to spend on gifts for other people.
[> [> [> [> well, rob... -- anom, 22:07:35
...there are still 7 hinting days left....
[> [> [> Got it! My review of LOEG2 (heavy spoilers)
-- KdS, 13:43:03 12/22/03 Mon
I found myself liking it far more on subsequent reflection and
second reading than on first reading, and it's because it's a
very different work in intent and style than the first volume.
Alan Moore has recently announced that he is, once again, retiring
from fiction, and I think League 2 makes a lot of sense
in that light. While the first League was pretty much a
romp with some dark satirical subtext, League 2 is a much
grimmer work, with a lot of subject matter (and some events) in
common with Watchmen. The guest appearances from famous
fictional characters are kept to a minimum, in favour of a very
direct implantation of the League characters into a very straight
adaptation of Well's War of the Worlds, although with Well's
ending revealed as a potential official "spin" of a
depressingly plausible alternative. The single chapter which does
employ the mass parody that appeared in the first book also hightens
the darkness of the story, as the deliberate perversion of children's
book characters, while still humourous, is the blackest and most
disturbing form of parody. The Martian invasion in League 2
(and I think we have to bring in the mystical symbolism of Mars
as stern judgement discussed in Promethea here) is used
as an allegory for the mechanised wars of the 20th century, and
the way in which they called all the assumptions of earlier traditions
of war stories and tales of individual heroism into question.
An early thought after finishing the book was that I was disappointed
in the way that Mina had been reduced from the confident leader
of the first book to at best an observer and at worst a victim,
but it was only concern with gender politics that stopped me noticing
initially that the male League members had been reduced to the
same condition. Even the larger-than-life Extraordinary Gentlemen
are lost in the fog of a total war in which no one person really
matters, or seems able to make a true difference. Watchmen
was intended, according to Moore's later remarks, to show how
badly the ideals and metaphors underlying the superhero fail in
the real world. However, much to Moore's initial concern, and
later disgust, it was widely interpreted as a blueprint for the
incorporation of "realism" into superhero stories, producing
a great deal of material that ranged from the morbid to the near-fascist.
League 2 makes it sufficiently obvious, in mood as much
of explicit philosophy, that this was an invalid response. The
two very controversial episodes of sexual violence in the story
may be criticised as gratuitously nasty, but they cannot be seen
as showing the flippancy with respect to sexual assault that made
the Griffin scenes in the first book so controversial. Rather
they help to ensure that the true nature of the characters responsible
for them can no longer be indulgently treated as mere black comedy.
I viewed the hints of attraction between Mina and Allan in the
first League with some distaste, hoping that they would
remain hints and be merely a satirical reference to the ageing-hero/cute-young-thing
dynamic of the Hollywood action movie (especially relevant given
the casting of Sean Connery as Allan in the film). However, when
the consummation is indeed portrayed in this volume, it is handled
far more effectively than I could have hoped, making clear that
this is not a case of the ageing hero being rewarded in a wish-fulfillment
way, but a relationship between two people whose shared damage
and physical and mental scars outweigh the apparent divide of
But from the character point of view, this is Edward Hyde's book.
It seems so natural that in this new darker world Hyde should
totally absorb Jekyll, and in so doing gain the articulacy and
self-reflective capacity that transforms him from a mere allegory
of the unleashed Id to a far more layered and frightening character.
The contrast of him with Griffin, of course, shows that the crimes
of an unleashed mystical Id, however horrible, are of a qualitatively
different nature to those of the human intellect devoid of conscience
and morality. Hyde's nature as a mere divided part of an irrevocably
splintered whole allows him to recognise his monstrosity without
feeling any possibility of redemption, and the balance of our
knowledge of his feelings and actions makes us able to feel emotional
sympathy for him without ever condoning his actions. Those actions,
which taken in bare description might be those of a hero, are
irrevocably darkened by the manner of their practice. One rarely
sees as perfect a fusion of dialogue and visual image to create
an intellectual and emotional impression as Hyde's soliloquy at
the dinner table, ending with the hideous anti-baptism as the
dying Griffin's no-longer invisible blood floods out from Hyde's
pristine shirt-front across the whole room, finally tainting Nemo
and Samson, who of course have their own histories of unrepentant
brutality. And the growing understanding between Mina and Edward,
the way she comes to care for him without ever forgetting what
he is, what he has done, and what he could do to her, culminating
with that incredibly perverse, yet delicate and heartbreaking
farewell is simply superb. I apologise for flogging a dead BtVS
horse, but this is what S7 Buffy/Spike, and the climax of Chosen,
should have been like if ME had given Seeing Red its full
While in the first League book the prose section added some darkness
and foreboding to the comedy of the graphic section, the prose
section here acts as a remarkable lightener. Largely it is a travelogue
of the League world that out-Wold-Newtons-Philip Jose Farmer,
and includes some truly hilarious juxtapositions of mythologies,
but the interspersed narrative sections about Allan, Nemo and
Mina clear up some ambiguities, provide outlines for some of the
earlier forshadowed storylines that presumably will be cut off
by Moore's retirement, and finally give us some hope that some,
at least, of the characters will find some measure of happiness
Overall then, an excellent piece of Moore, but don't expect something
too similar to League 1 or you'll be disappointed and a
[> [> Great source material......which they then completely
ignored -- DorianQ, 23:20:05 12/17/03 Wed
The book was not a typical action comic book; it was far more
literary and "British"(which I like). The main problem
was probably their approach. A much better movie would have been
to try and emulate the style of, say "Lawrence of Arabia"
or "Titanic" than "Spiderman" or "Die
Another Day". All four are good movies (well, except for
DAD; don't ask me why but Halle does nothing for me and the ending
was so amazingly over the top that it tainted all the good stuff
that came before. But I digress) but they are all different. Some
stories will work with pretty much any approach, but this one
doesn't, and that's not a bad thing.
Some specific things that were not right: Sean Connery, I don't
know why they needed to get an action star for this but the only
time I can remember him acting well was in the Untouchables; Quartermain
was made into the leader instead of Mina, which meant that her
vampirism had to be revealed right away, getting rid of one of
the better surpises from the book, and that Allan couldn't have
had an opium addiction like he did in the book, because leaders
can't ever have personal flaws or failings (he says with a straight
face) both which robbed the two characters of multidimensionality
that the writers did nothing to replace with: and the script itself,
which had zero subtlety and often beat us over the head with the
little symbolism they had (the old tiger got old real fast).
Which isn't to say it was that bad of a movie compared to a lot
of teh other crap out there right now. I may even by it if I have
twenty bucks that I have nothing better to spend on.
You know what they should have done? Whoever directed this should
have directed Hulk and Ang Lee should have directed this. Lee
style would go much better with this movie thatn it did with the
Hulk and vice versa.
By the way, I don't think they should have done a strict book
to movie transfer. You always should adjust stories to the medium
that they are being told in. In in the case of TLOEG, they threw
out the proverbial baby with the bathwater, so to speak.
[> From Pony's comments I have to ask, what's second prize?
Two copies? -- CW, 09:21:06 12/17/03 Wed
[> [> Re: LoEG -- Brian, 05:36:29 12/18/03 Thu
I enjoyed the comic book and the movie. The movie took many liberties
with the book, but it still was quite enjoyable. I even liked
having Tom Sawyer and Dorian Grey as additional characters in
the movie. The stuff that was so over the top I just accepted
as "movie reality." Petra Wilson did a wonderful acting
job as Mrs Harker. She was the best actor in the movie.
[> [> [> I agree -- Rufus, 18:03:11 12/18/03
I loved the commentary as well. The movie won't make the comic
book canon types happy but I ignored that and enjoyed the movie
for what it was.
[> So will Hellboy be any good? Is it worth hoping?
-- MsGiles, 07:46:31 12/18/03 Thu
It's still Connected....Lovecraft, Angel, and
Marvel...spoilers to Destiny -- Rufus, 00:02:52 12/17/03
We are getting what appears to be stand alone episodes this year.
Thing with stand alone episodes is that they have information
in them that informs the season as a whole. For those new to Angel
it's a nice way to see the character, for us, it's a way of looking
below the surface to get an idea of what is going on.
Last year I plucked out of the archive of The Stakehouse, a post
of WtP that interested me. I'm not much of a comics person but
the parallels between Lovecraft, Marvel, and Angel/Buffy have
always been there starting from the beginning of Buffy and the
talk of "the Old Ones return."
I go back to that Sep/02 post to revisit the hierarchy of the
Powers that Be and their connection to Wolfram and Hart.
Posted at The Stakehouse:
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:20 pm
Subject: Older than the Old Ones . . .
Actually, we know that something older than the Old Ones is coming
back. I am not enough of a Lovecraftian to know if that makes
Well . . . to go away from Lovecraft
purely and go back to the wonderful
world of comics for a moment . . .
. . . the Old Ones and the Elder Gods show up in the Marvel
universe as well. The idea there is that prior to the rise of
humanity, earth was kind of a hellish place ruled by creatures
we might call . . . demons. The Elder
Gods were the oldest of them, existing since the beginning
of the universe, so they're billions of years old. The Old
Ones are later on the scene, but
they're the ones that usually get noticed more since the Elder
Gods were swept from the scene a long time ago . . . actually,
they were removed by a very powerful, godlike creature
to allow humanity a chance to arise.
The only ONE of the Elder Gods allowed to remain on earth
in the Marvel universe was, interestingly enough, Gaea.
A few of them, like Set and Chthon, escaped through dimensional
portals to . . . somewhere else.
The Old Ones, on the other hand, were very powerful demons who
ruled the earth before humanity arose but were johnny-come-latelies
in terms of the EGs. That's where Chthulu and some of the others
come in -- really powerful
and a lot harder to handle than the run of the mill vamp or demon
would be, but not in the same class as the Elder Gods at all.
Oh, and the Elder Gods could sometimes be referred to as
the Dark Gods in Marvel.
In Buffyspeak, you might refer to them asHell Gods. . .
Many interesting possibilities . . . although whether or not they
have anything to do with what's coming up . . . *veg*
. . . reminding you that the most important question in the Buffyverse
is often "Which is better, Marvel or DC?" and the most
important statement for the viewer is "things are more connected
than they might appear to be."
Both BTVS and Marvel use Lovecraftian themes but BTVS borrows
a bit more from Marvel than Lovecraft. When Buffy first aired
we got a short lesson on the history of the world by Giles. From
Season one ep. 1.2: The Harvest
Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to
popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold
eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their...
their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality.
The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains
of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures...
The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a
human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected
by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they
walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with
others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to
die out, and the Old Ones to return.
This is very much a Lovecraft influenced history where the Old
Ones are pushed out of this reality by a force stronger than themselves.
But they have eternally tried to find their way back or at the
very least find a way to have an influence in Earth's reality.
There are a few ways to do this......one is the creation of a
demon hybrid like the vampire, who is supposed to be waiting for
the return of the Old Ones...who would have guessed they'd find
MTV and other creature comforts distracting them from their reason
for being, but what does one expect when you make a demon starting
with a human?
The second way that the Old Ones or Hell Gods (in the Buffyverse,
Hellgods) can break through to this reality would be to use a
human as a vessel (think Cordy on ATS and Ben on BTVS). The point
is that the Earth is something that the Old Ones and the Hell
Gods may want but can't have because something is preventing them
from getting back to the earth dimension.
I found a site where there is a comparrison between the Gods in
Marvel and Lovecraft.......
A frequent source of confusion/contention, even amongst the
writers for the Appendix:
The Elder Gods of the Marvel Universe refers specifically to those
being present during the formation of Earth (and are thus billions
of years old), who apparently originated from Earth as well. These
include Chthon, Gaea, and Set, among a few others. Most of these
being degenerated into demons, and are considered Class One demons.
The vast majority of these Elder Gods/Demons were slain by Demogorge,
the offspring of Gaea and the Demiurge, a powerful god-like force,
which sought to cleanse the Earth to allow humanity to develop.
Gaea alone was allowed to remain on Earth, while a few, such
as Chthon and Set, managed to escape extra-dimensionally.
The Old Ones: Lovecraft's stories have a separate group of elder
Gods, who represent pre-human demons that ruled the Earth in the
distant past. Shuma-Gorath, Chthulu, etc. are in this class. Lovecraft's
work has served as a basis for many storylines and characters
in the work of REH and in the Marvel Universe as well. The term
"Elder Gods" is often used to describe them in the Hyborian
Era stories, and even in modern era stories. However, again, these
are NOT the same classification of characters as the true Elder
Gods. Lovecraft's history is NOT the same as the Marvel Universe's.
In the MU, these beings are considered Class III demons, and are
thought to have extra-dimensional origin. They may well be older
than Earth, making them older than the true Elder Gods. However,
some specific nomenclature is necessary to avoid confusion.
Let's go back to Lindsey.....he is covered with symbols...the
apartment or house Eve lives in is covered in the same symbols.
So, who they hiding from and why? If they are hiding what does
that make them, good or bad guys? We have a season where the line
between human and machine is blurred and so is the line between
the good and bad guys. Some of them have a conviction that seems
to be lagging in Angel these days. So, what do the Marvel, The
Powers that Be, and Wolfram and Hart that be have in common? With
all the talk about Power where is Angel's place in the end result
if he is only a puppet?
[> Pulling strings...spoilers to Destiny -- Pony, 08:15:20
I'm not sure if we'll ever get an answer to who the PTB really
are or how involved they are in the actual workings of the Buffyverse.
I find it interesting how many episodes this year have focussed
on will or rather Angel's lack of. All the manipulations no longer
seem designed to push him to make a choice for evil but rather
to get him to a place where he has no choice. In a world where
destiny seems to be driving force why worry about free will?
'The Gift' [Spoilers for S5] -- The Sorcerer,
05:02:41 12/17/03 Wed
Why was Buffy able to close the portal and die?
Yes, I understand the bit about her blood being the same as Dawn's
and such, but what I don't understand is how she could jump into
the portal, electrocute herself, and die of mystical energies?
Shouldn't she have gone through to another dimension like that
dragon which came through to our dimension? The question begs
the solution, then, that perhaps it's a one-way portal, but then
how did Glory anticipate getting through?
If it's a portaly, how did it kill her instead of simply allowing
her to pass through?
[> Re: Like becoming -- Brian, 06:05:47 12/17/03
I assume it's the dynamics of specific blood. In Becoming, Angel's
blood opened the portal, and it also closed it. Dawn's blood opened
the portal, and Buffy's specific blood closed it.
[> [> Re: Like becoming -- The Sorcerer, 06:11:22
>>>I assume it's the dynamics of specific blood. In Becoming,
Angel's blood opened the portal, and it also closed it. Dawn's
blood opened the portal, and Buffy's specific blood closed it.<<<
Too true, however, if you recall, Angel was sucked into the portal
as a result of the portal's transdimensional nature, but Buffy
simply floated in the portal until it closed and she laid dead
[> [> [> Re: Like becoming -- LittleBit, 09:03:18
Perhaps that was due to the differing natures of the two portals.
In "Becoming" Acathla opened a portal to a specific
hell dimension and Angel, when closing it, was pulled into it.
In "The Gift" the Key didn't 'open a portal' so much
as cause all the barriers between all the dimensions to be dissolved.
My thought is that Buffy remained in the opening rift until the
'dimensional walls' were rebuilt and then returned here because
there was no 'destination' as there had been in "Becoming".
Anyway, that works for me. ;-)
[> [> [> [> Maybe humans are blocked from demon
dimensions -- Ray, 12:17:14 12/17/03 Wed
Maybe that's why it killed her instead of just transporting her.
Angel was probably sucked in because of his demon nature.
[> Re: 'The Gift' [Spoilers for S5] -- Sofdog, 16:19:59
It serves the story. We need Buffy to jump, die in the fall and
hit the ground. So the characters and audience know she's dead
and dispose of her lifeless body accordingly.
Dawn's blood dissolved the dimensional walls in general, not just
at that point in the sky. Buffy being killed by the energy in
the vortex caused everything to reassert itself quickly, where
as the slow bleeding process would have drawn things out. Everything
was over so quickly, Buffy just kept falling till she hit that
pile of planks or whatever it was.
[> Re: 'The Gift' [Spoilers for S5] -- Finn Mac Cool,
20:23:24 12/17/03 Wed
The portal in question was, unlike most that we've seen on the
show, emitting several bolts of mystical energy, which probably
means that it killed Buffy before she could actually pass through
into another dimension. And, as soon as Buffy died, the portal
would close, and all Buffy would have left to pass through would
be some leftover mystical energy.
[> When I hear something described as 'mystical' --
MsGiles, 04:19:55 12/18/03 Thu
I reach for my gun I assume that it's a plot device that
is impervious to logical explanation, and any attempt to crack
its shiny shell (eg with the lasers of analysis) will immediately
result in all the force rebounding on the enquirer and frying
their mind. So I stay clear. If the thing has emotional rightness
in the story, as here, I happily accept it as artistic expression.
At first I thought the portal was a Mcguffin. Then I looked up
McGuffin and got
McGuffin (aka: MacGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a PlotEnablingDevice,
i.e. a device or plot element in a movie that is deliberately
placed to catch the viewer's attention and/or drive the logic
of the plot, but which actually serves no further purpose - it
won't pop up again later, it won't explain the ending, it won't
actually do anything except possibly distract you while you try
to figure out its significance. More specifically, it is usually
a mysterious package or superweapon or something that everyone
in the story is chasing
So Dawn's role as mystic key seems to be more of a McGuffin than
the portal, really. It never gets really explained though it drives
the plot, and everyone is chasing her (or it, but it seems rude
to call her an it). Although unlike The Maltese Falcon (a famous
McGuffin) she is the real thing, as it turns out.
[> OK, I'll give this a shot... -- OnM, 19:27:43
First off, I think Joss made an technical error when he had the
'vortex' referred to as a 'portal' by Giles. (For certain, I recall
Giles calling it a 'portal' when asked about the reason that Glory
built the tower-- he theorizes that 'the portal must open up there'.
Maybe other characters referred to it as a portal also).
However, if we ignore this mistake, the remaining 'logic' of the
event pretty much holds up.
If you go back to the early part of The Gift, Giles reads
from the book confiscated from Doc, and tells Buffy and the other
Scoobies that essentially "When the blood (of the Key) starts
to flow, (all) the dimensional walls open up. When the flow of
blood stops, the walls close up again". Later on,
Glory tells Dawn essentially the same thing.
The 'vortex' which erupts when Dawn's blood enters a specific
physical location at a specific time begins the process of breaking
down the dimensional walls. The vortex, essentially, is the 'turning
of the Key', so to speak. (Several characters, including Glory,
refer to 'turning' the Key over the latter course of the season.)
Thus, I see the vortex as, for lack of a better description, the
doorknob, and not the door itself. The dissolving of the
dimensional walls would have likely taken place at numerous places
all over the world(s), not just nearby the vortex, if the blood
would keep flowing for a long enough time. (Note that one of Glory's
minions states that "the bleeding process will be quite long,
actually", when Ben tries to comfort Dawn by saying it will
probably be "over quickly").
Finally, recall that descriptive terminology aside, Buffy isn't
the first one to guess that jumping into the vortex would kill
the person doing so-- before Buffy gets her 'shared-blood epiphany'
Dawn tries to jump in to 'stop the blood from flowing' and then
Buffy stops her, quickly reaffirming that "it will kill you".
So in short, it's a keyslot/doorknob, (vortex), not a door (portal).
In Joss's defense, all this terminology exposition would have
been too time-consuming to detail out and by doing so, likely
get in the way of the story more than help it along.
[> [> Re: OK, I'll give this a shot... -- Rufus,
03:46:46 12/19/03 Fri
Okay......vortex= honkin big portal....
[> [> keymaster and gatekeeper? -- MsGiles, 05:27:33
aka Rick Moranis and Sigourney Weaver coupling on top of an art
deco skyscraper spring irresistibly to mind ..
[> [> LOL! Who ya gonna call? ;o) -- Rob, 13:16:27
[> [> [> That was supposed to be a reply to MsGiles.
-- Rob, 13:17:52 12/19/03 Fri
The Senior partners/PTB & Buffy -- Spike,
15:17:13 12/17/03 Wed
Hi I just thought of something do the senior partners or TBTB
want Buffy on their side? It just seems that they are more intrested
in Angel and i do like Angel but shouldn't the partners be worried
about a slayer who has stopped like 8 apocalypses?
[> Someone should do an exact count sometime -- DorianQ,
23:55:14 12/17/03 Wed
Here are the ones I remember (I'm talking about general big bad
events here and not just true apocalypses and is that the plural
That makes eleven by my count. What did I miss?
[> [> Becoming, Part II -- patrick, 18:07:55 12/18/03
Becoming, Part II - I think sucking the whole world into hell
should qualify as an apocalypse.
[> [> [> How the heck did I miss that one? Me is stupid...
-- DorianQ, 18:47:31 12/18/03 Thu
[> Angel is gray -- Ray, 19:27:31 12/18/03 Thu
It'd be near impossible to corrupt Buffy. And she's not immortal.
For all we know the Wolfram and Hart Apocalypse is set for next
[> [> But the hair dye he uses is very good...even if
it does make him look like a poofter -- Random, 10:20:30
finally up to speed, apocalypse-wise -- msGiles,
04:28:44 12/19/03 Fri
OK, I'm Buffied up! I finally got to the end of S7, which C2 has
been showing at a breakneck pace (three eps a week) I know what
the cookie dough is all about! I can commiserate with Anya fans
(why? why?). I saw Spike go out in a blaze of glory (literally),
Caleb sent off in different directions.
I'm going to go back and read some of the posts I couldn't read
when (most of) the rest of you saw S7. I'm putting down some knee-jerk
now, to get it out of my head so I can think about Christmas presents.
The series had some great points. That ep centred around Andrew,
re-creating reality with his video recorder, got me sitting forward.
So much juicy stuff in there. Why we like narratives like Buffy,
and how viewing/reading/hearing them influences our image of our
own life/lives. Writing CV's: making our life into a story where
the climax, the happy ever after, would be getting the job. Finding
the 'right person', making a narrative the culminates in meeting
that person .. but if it doesn't work out, the storyboard is wiped
clean and another narrative version starts to be written. The
Andrew episode gave me plenty of seeing black and grained spots
in my own heart type moments. The great thing about the episode,
like all the best of Buffy, was the compassion that went with
the scalpel. Andrew got taken apart and put back together. I began
to forgive him for being so annoying.
The final sequence of episodes did seem curiously muted, not just
by the murky colours that were mentioned here before. The piling
on of crazy tension that characterised the last part of S5 wasn't
quite there. For one thing, the Slayerettes were all rather anonymous.
We never got to know any of them well enough to care whether they
lived or died. Even Kennedy, who seemed quite capable of taking
on the Slayer mantle, never quite became a real person.
Spike? Well, plenty more JM bravura performances, but even Spike
was a little flat, in terms of content. Great to see him revisiting
Fool for Love territory, but odd to see him back when he was vamped
and coming over as perhaps the nicest bloodsucker ever to become
an global scourge. When Angel got vamped, he killed his family
horribly. When Spike's mum got vamped, she turned on her son and
ridiculed everything he held dear. When Spike got vamped, he still
loved his Mum, and wanted him, Drew and Mum to be one happy (albeit
murderous) family. Sorry, this is not in the Good Vamping Code.
So what is it with Spike? Was he so nice to start with that the
demon that took him over couldn't subdue that loving heart, or
was he taken over by a particularly wussy demon? We shall never
know (unless you guys watching Angel know now, of course)
Gunn .. jury's out. Sunnydale High Principal has always been a
thankless job. He never quite got beyond being a foil - mainly
for Spike, giving him a rival, an opponent and ultimately an unwilling
therapist. Gunn got his Slayer in the end, though.
Faith shone out, ED doing wonderful ambiguity, mixed motives,
a kind of honesty coming through all her 'issues' and snarkiness.
And great midriff. I hope she and Gunn are very happy. He's devious
'White Willow' .. well, yes, OK.
Really liked the bit at the end, when they were all saying goodby
without actually saying it, turning off the corridor as Buffy
kept on walking down it, until she was all alone. Dawn 'anything
you say will sound like goodbye'. I started to sit up and take
notice. And then the final moments, with the bus driving away,
as Sunnydale fell into the abyss behind it.
Did Buffy jump the shark at the end of S5? I don't think it's
as simple as that. S6 and S7 were still way ahead of most stuff
on television, and ahead of any of the other fantasy shows for
my money, in terms of writing, content, acting. Patchier than
before, though. Sometimes more difficult, less viewer-friendly
(all the post-Smashed S/B). Sometimes too mixed in tone (DMP to
DT). Sometimes that bit too contrived (just say demon eggs). S6's
FX did let it down, but you could argue that was part of the point.
It just wasn't a point the audience particularly wanted.
S1 and S2 had a bounce to them. S3 to S5 had a bit-between-the-teeth
feeling, a mad race to get everything in, to pile on the shock,
the feeling, the vision, the intensity.
S6 was so sad. Everyone drifted, everything went wrong. All the
horses fell at the hurdles.
S7 was back in harness, but with the teeth gritted. Adulthood
with a vengeance. No way out. Everyone buckled down and did the
job, but there was little joy. The feeling at the end, as they
look down at the smoking remains of Sunnydale, is one of relief.
The whole thing is over at last, over so completely that there
can be no going back. Ever.
Now I look forward to seeing the late night uncut S7 being broadcast
in January, and getting all that trangressive sex that C2 cut
out for pre-watershed transmission.
[> APOLOGIES spoilers S7 above -- MsGiles, 08:10:18
[> Re: Wood not Gunn (NT) -- CasinoGB, 11:37:28 12/19/03
[> [> oopsie. Also bargaining not becoming, that was
the other post -- MsGiles, 12:59:57 12/19/03 Fri
[> [> [> bangs head on floor -- MsGiles, 13:08:41
[> Re: finally up to speed, apocalypse-wise -- Rahael,
17:23:44 12/19/03 Fri
I loved reading this. And the comment about the scalpel, wielded
with compassion and Andrew. That was perfect.
(My thoughts are like a case of knives.......)
'Super-Evil Review' Archives -- D2, 08:43:12
Is there anywhere that the "Super-Evil Reviews" of each
episode are posted? I enjoy them so much, and would love to go
back and read each one after watching the episodes again!
[> They're in the board archives -- Masq, 09:33:02
However, your best bet there is to do a site search on "Super
Evil Review". I don't know if HonorH/Honorificus has them
all catalogued somewhere else.
[> [> Re: They're in the board archives -- Sebastian, 12:55:54
I would love to get my hands on all the previous Super Evil Reviews
They were/are some of the best damn TV reviews I've read in a
HonorH - is there anyway to get them from you? (Hint, Hint)
[> [> [> Calling HonorH!! Or Honorificus will do--read
this thread! -- Masq, 13:27:30 12/19/03 Fri
Or if one of her groveling minions knows the answers, that will
[> [> [> Previous Super Evil reviews -- Masq,
13:30:55 12/19/03 Fri
Are all in the
board archives going back several years. They're just hard
to find because Honor doesn't necessarily post them right after
a new episode airs, esp. the Angel ones (since she doesn't get
Angel up there in the ice and snow).
[> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super Evil reviews
-- D2, 15:26:16 12/19/03 Fri
Is there any way to get them all put into 1 place? They ARE the
most clever reviews, and I would go through archives to get them
but sadly,I am internet-illiterate...
[> [> [> [> [> That's actually not a bad idea...
-- Random, 15:33:41 12/19/03 Fri
...especially if HonorH/Honorificus has them all. A separate page
on the ES site would be an appropriate honor (pun intended...or
is that really a pun in the strictest sense of the word? Oooh,
it's all just to much for me!)
[> [> [> [> [> Calling Little Bit or Lady Starlight!
-- Masq, 15:49:17 12/19/03 Fri
Can we get all HonorH's reviews on ES? Or are they already there?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Calling Little Bit
or Lady Starlight! -- LadyStarlight, 19:30:32 12/19/03
Mired in the midst of computer problems that will hopefully be
solved before the new year -- I ordered a new computer.
But that's a good idea to get them up on ES.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super Evil reviews
-- LittleBit, 18:09:21 12/19/03 Fri
Honorificus' Super-Evil Reviews:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
More, With Feeling (special edition)
Time, Same Place
With Dead People
on the Night
Killer in Me
My Parents Told Me
Super-Evil Review of Empty Places
Angel the Series
Nowish; Habeas Corpses; Long Days Journey; Awakening; Soulless;
Down; Ground State; The House Always Wins; Slouching Toward Bethlehem;
Supersymmetry; Spin the Bottle
I believe there were a few more for Angel the Series, posted in
HonorH's Live Journal, but I haven't gone and found them (yet).
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super Evil
reviews -- D2, 18:54:36 12/19/03 Fri
Are there more than this for Buffy? Please tell me that there
were more (sob!). Any chance of going back and doing previous
seasons for those of us who are feeling the total loss?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super
Evil reviews -- LittleBit, 19:16:20 12/19/03 Fri
The Super-Evil Reviews didn't start until after the concept of
the Demonic Alter-egos was created. So only S7 of Buffy and S4
of Angel (with, I'm fairly sure, the last eps in her LJ).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I asked HH
to do them for the earlier seasons -- Masq, 22:52:10 12/19/03
But she told me she didn't have them on tape. ; ( ; (
[> [> [> [> [> [> Little Bit, have I told
you you're a goddess lately? -- Masq, 22:49:47 12/19/03
Well, consider it said!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Awwww... -- LittleBit
[blushing], 21:52:59 12/20/03 Sat
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> First Evil's
Pet.......tbbppppt!!!!!! -- Rufus, 05:27:59 12/22/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just
because... -- LittleBit, 10:47:29 12/22/03 Mon
The First Evil and Mr. Rufus think I'm a goddess is no
reason to be childish. On the other hand... mmmmmm...
[> [> [> [> [> [> OMG! Thanks so much! I
was trying to find them the other day and had no idea where to
start! -- DorianQ, 23:40:51 12/19/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, 'Bit! -- HonorH,
00:27:29 12/20/03 Sat
And D2, thanks for the interest. I was putting them all into my
LJ, but then I got distracted. Easy to do when one has a Super-Evil
Alter-Ego who can't keep her eyes off of Viggo Mortensen lately.
You want to do anything with those reviews, Powers That Board,
feel free. They're all yours!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Wow, thanks! Now another
request -- mamcu, 06:49:17 12/20/03 Sat
It would be totally wonderful to have a link to this index so
one could find it from something like the Exitential Scoobies
page or mybe just a separate link on the first Archives page?
And I know I'm asking for a lot. Thanks so much for this compilation.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wow, thanks!
Now another request -- The First Naughty Virtue, 22:23:38
That's something the Sidereal Coder and I will look into after
What kind of cookie do you think they would be?
-- Ann, 10:26:34 12/19/03 Fri
Somewhat OT but with the holiday season here, and we know Buffy
is baking in Europe, I thought I would ask:
What kind of cookie would they be? These are my choices:
Buffy - White Chocolate Chip with Macadamia Nut. Has to be chocolate
but with a Californian flair using Macadamia.
Angel - At first I thought fudge, but later decided Nanimo Bars.
Dark, dense, complicated. More layers were needed.
Spike - I don't know what they are called but they are deep fried
dough with icing sugar sprinkled on after cooking. Italians and
Mexicans have variations on these. Some call them Angel wings
(ha ha but may be metaphor for his role in Angel's life) My other
choice is Rocky Road.
Willow - Ginger Snaps - plain on first look but spicy and surprising
when you bite.
Cordilia - Shortbread balls with cherry centers
Wes - Fruitcake -He is such a complicated character that I thought
only something with so many ingredients would be appropriate.
Gunn - Lemon cookies from a cookie press. He has been "squeezed"
into the lawyer role but has a new fresh look. More polished.
Fred - Oatmeal Raisin - plainish but very sweet.
Zander - Peanut butter -dependable and nutritious
Giles - Plain Shortbread - long history, basis for many other
Oz - Peanut Brittle - sharp, unassuming but with tasty depth.
Kendra - Rum Balls -Jamaican of course.
Faith: Chocolate chocolate-chip dipped in chocolate. Very intense.
[> also I can't forget -- Ann, 10:34:42 12/19/03
Lorne: thumbprint cookie or stained glass cookie
[> [> what about anya? -- cockneylass, 21:28:39
[> [> [> Re: what about anya? -- Ann, 06:28:47
Oops - Has to be a Fortune cookie!
[> Mmmmmm cookies....like M'Fashnik! That's I wanted to
say :-)... -- angel's nibblet, 12:09:30 12/19/03 Fri
Checkin in... -- angel's nibblet, 12:02:04
Just got back yesterday from my 3 week europe-jaunt (hehe) and
thought see how you are all doing. At least I didn't miss any
new Angel episodes! (what is with the long gaps? when seasons
are shown here in NZ, which doesn't happen to often, they're done
at a run and are over within six months) But that does give me
time to catch up on my season 4 watching! Hope everyone is doing
OK and you haven't missed me too much ;-) May come back later
to see if anyone is in chat..
[> A-N! We've missed you... -- Random, 20:49:59 12/19/03
Hope you had lots of fun
[> [> Oh it was fabulous dahling ;-) So many crazy stories!
-- angel's nibblet, 23:27:05 12/19/03 Fri
Angel's argument with Jamsine, the Shanshu prophecy
(spoilers for AtS 4.21 Peace out, and AtS 5.1-8) -- Rohar,
12:24:50 12/19/03 Fri
I was thinking about all the commentary in ATPoBtVS & AtS's section
on the Shanshu prophecy and the fact that Angel has lost all faith
in that prophecy. If that is so, how do we explain this little
section of Angel's exchange with Jasmine, once he'd ended her
control over everyone ?
No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't
you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices.
I offered paradise. You chose this!
Because I could. Because that's what you took away from us. Choice.
And look what free will has gotten you.
Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what
makes us human.
But you're not human.
Working on it. (Jasmine turns to walk away) Where you going?
(walking away) Leave me alone.
In that exchange - Jasmine tell Angel he's not human, and Angel
claims to be "working on it" - which would contradict
the idea that Angel's given up. So - was that merely a defiant
response to Jasmine, or something more ? Opinions please ?
Oh and after reading that section, I've realised another analogy
between Angel in Series 5, and Buffy in series 6. Both faced gods
in the preceding series (BtVS 5, and Ats 4) and both "appear
to going through the motions" of their jobs - with their
hearts not in it ... maybe our broody vampire boy needs Buffy
to give him advice ? *grins*
[> No time to comment, but you should definitely keep in
mind... -- Rob, 13:13:20 12/19/03 Fri
...that that exchange took place before Angel's fateful
decision in Home.
[> [> Re: No time to comment, but you should definitely
keep in mind... -- Rohar, 18:58:13 12/19/03 Fri
Hmmm ..... good point. However if we consider that Jasmine's actions
dealt a severe, even fatal blow to Angel's trust in the Shanshu
prophecy, then even before Angel made his decision about Connor,
there must have been huge doubts anyway, so that statement would
still, in my mind be a huge contradiction and a question point.
[> [> [> The way I read that is... (Home spoils)
-- Rob, 17:46:08 12/20/03 Sat
But you're not human.
Working on it.
...not that Angel was referring to working on becoming a literal,
actual, flesh-and-blood human again, but that he is fighting his
vampiric urges and struggling and striving to be as human as he
possibly can, in other words to continue caring for the human
race, to continue battling on the side of the greater good. It
didn't even occur to me watching the episode that he was thinking
of the possibility of a Shanshu here.
Also, at this point Angel didn't see the full negative effects
of the loss of Jasmine's hold on the people. Nor was he offered
W&H yet. He did what he considered to be saving the world, and
as a result brought discontentment and misery to thousands, and
then was rewarded for that by having the most evil people in the
world as him to work for them. And that is before he discovers
that his son has gone completely over the deep end, plans on blowing
himself up, along with a store full of innocent people, and blames
Angel completely for doing all of this to him. Had the death of
Jasmine caused no ill effects, had W&H never approached him, had
Connor not reached such a low point, Angel perhaps might still
have some faith in the prophecy. But a lot can change in a day.
OT - Christmas Poem 2003 -- Brian, 20:06:54
CROSS COUNTRY HUNT
(A Loomis-Chaffee Christmas Memory)
It is the year of the Connecticut ice storm:
No power, no heat, no cooked food.
The persistent cold has made us bitter and quarrelsome.
Deborah and I are buried under a pile of overdue Christmas cards.
We are working by candlelight:
Deborah is drawing simple winter scenes,
While I add short poems, and address envelopes.
In our cold-numbed minds we suddenly remember,
It's the Saturday afternoon before Christmas,
And we realize that we still need more decorations for our tree.
So, cards are pushed aside,
And it's on with our winter clothes,
Down the dorm stairs,
And out into the quad.
Strapping on our skis,
Across the campus, we speed;
Down the slopes, we plunge;
And into the cornfields, we go.
Basil and Bogart are barking,
Racing through the bright fall of new snow,
Chasing imaginary squirrels and rabbits,
Plowing their muzzles into the snow to feel the sharp tang of
We leave school civilization behind,
And head for the narrow band of forest between the fields and
We hope to find pinecones, seedpods, straw flowers, and colorful
Above us the sky is still cerulean blue even in the slating rays
of the setting sun.
The air is crisp and clean; its cold touch against our reddening
As we ski and search, the world falls quiet,
Just the steady swish, swish, swish of our skis cutting through
And the distant murmur of birdsong.
In time, our sack is nearly full
When we find the mother lode:
A fallen tree, branches laced with vines of bittersweet,
Their red and yellow berries a crowning treasure for our hunt.
Finished with our task, we stand next to each other,
Balancing ever so carefully on our skis.
The dogs are paused for a moment at our feet,
And we look back at the school:
A distant, muted outline against the fading daylight.
We turn back for a quick kiss,
Arms wrapped awkwardly around each other,
And in that instant
We merge with land and sky,
Lost in each other's eyes,
We touch that quiet pool of recognition and redemption.
We will endure another day against the cold and the darkness in
The dogs are off in speedy flashes of white against the white
Reluctantly, we return towards home
In the final rays of dying sunlight.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all posters near and far.
[> Christmas Poem 2003 - Now, that really get's me in the
Christmas mood. -- CW, 20:36:03 12/20/03 Sat
Thanks, Brian. Great, as usual!
[> [> Re: Thanks for your kind words, CW -- Brian,
21:11:27 12/20/03 Sat
[> [> Re: Christmas Poem 2003 - Now, that really get's
me in the Christmas mood. -- wombat, 21:24:44 12/20/03
That was really lovely. Thanks for sharing it with us.
[> [> [> Re: Christmas Poem 2003 - Now, that really
get's me in the Christmas mood. -- jane, 00:05:48 12/21/03
That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with us. I just spent
a lovely evening with two dear friends I haven't seen for ages.
We had dinner, saw The Return of the King, and exchanged gifts,news
and hugs. Your poem was a delightful end to the evening. I would
like to wish you, and everyone else who sees this, the very Happiest
of Christmases, and health,love and peace in the coming year.
[> [> [> [> Re: FYI - Some notes for Christmas
Poem 2003 -- Brian, 11:49:07 12/21/03 Sun
1.Loomis Chaffee School is located in the Connecticut River Valley,
about 6 miles north of Hartford. It is the 7th largest prep school
for boys and girls in America with over 700 students.
2.The ice storm was the worst in 50 years. It encrusted the Connecticut
River Valley with over two inches of ice on everything. Power
was off for a week. Deborah and I were in the initial stages of
hypothermia before we finally had our first hot meal.
3.Basil and Bogart are English Setters, Hunters, not show dogs.
They ran like the wind.
[> [> [> [> Thank you, jane -- dub ;o), 13:21:38
And Brian, I think that is absolutely the most beautiful poem
you have posted so far. Thank you, too.
And a Happy, Peaceful, and Blessed Solstice to all.
[> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Dub, and Happy Holidays
to all - See you '04 -- Brian, 15:04:36 12/21/03 Sun
[> Oh Thank you Brian....... -- Rufus, 05:32:19 12/22/03
Lovely poem, the best I can do is offer you the following.
Link to Rufus's Seasons Greetings.....
look at the pretty picture, don't read any of the Trollopy goodies.
OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting article
in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- OnM, 12:33:29 12/21/03
[> Re: OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting article
in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- LonesomeSundown, 19:24:52
I think one should be very careful about what exactly Newburg's
work is saying, if anything.
The apple pie analogy is flawed at a fundamental level. The presence
of the pie causes brain activity, but the presence of brain activity
says exactly zero about the existence of the pie. What happens
to brain activity if the subject is hallucinating about an apple
So my frontal lobe lights up when I am meditating. Is this part
more active when I am focusing on solving a math problem or analysing
At the same time, the parietal lobe - the part that helps you
locate yourself in relation to your environment - goes dark and
quiet . Well, why not since you are stationary and cocentrating?
It's more than a stretch to say that it has to do with "the
feeling of unifying with a larger, boundless universe".
He goes on to say "If we go with the presumption that
the brain processes our information about reality, then we are
left with a secondhand sense of what the world is about. You can't
get outside your own brain to know reality."
The alternative is go with the presumption that there is a reality
we can experience without the aid of the brain. If that is the
case, how does he expect to learn anything about it by looking
at brain scans and interpreting data with his brain?
As for the conflict (or lack thereof) between science and faith
I highly recommend Gould's Rocks of Ages.
[> [> Re: OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting
article in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- skpe, 11:32:19
For those interested in this topic I would highly recommend
'Religion explained' by Pascal Boyer
[> Thanks for posting, OnM. Like to read stuff I don't agree
with, sometimes :-) -- LonesomeSundown, 19:28:31 12/21/03
[> Re: OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting article
in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- skeeve, 08:12:23
Perhaps we can also argue about Hybrids by Robert J. Sawyer.
Live From California . . . -- Claudia, 11:36:50
Live from downtown Los Angeles . . . we just endured an earthquake
centered near San Luis Obispo at 6.5 on the Richter scale. It
was a rolling type of earthquake that was definitely felt here
in downtown Los Angeles. The aftershock was rated at 4.3. The
citizens of San Luis Obispo are being evacuated.
[> Re: Live From California . . . -- skpe, 11:43:31
We felt it here in O.C.
[> [> Re: Live From California . . . -- Claudia,
11:50:51 12/22/03 Mon
Yeah, our office building shook for a good 5 minutes after the
quake (it's built on rollers to protect it from major damage).
[> Hang in there Claudia, and thank you for confirmation.
-- Briar Rose, 11:57:13 12/22/03 Mon
[> Hopefully not a portent ;-) -- KdS, 12:18:32 12/22/03
[> Re: Live From California . . . -- CasinoGB, 12:55:08
We felt it here in San Francisco.
[> [> Re: Live From California . . . -- Claudia,
15:07:37 12/22/03 Mon
At least three people were reported dead in Paso Robles.
Interesting - between October and December, Los Angeles has experienced
a transit strike, a grocery strike, a major fire, a thunderstorm
(a rarity in Southern California) and now an earthquake. Whoever
made that comment about portents, might have something.
| More December 2003