December 2003 posts

Previous December 2003  

More December 2003

Amber Benson at 'Buffy' and 'Angel' convention in Dublin, Ireland. -- Liam, 08:49:28 12/15/03 Mon

On Saturday, 13th December, there was a small 'Buffy' and 'Angel' convention in Chief O'Neill's Hotel, Dublin, Ireland, with Amber Benson (Tara McClay) as guest of honour. Unfortunately, she was unwell at the time; but she managed to turn up and spoke for a while, something all of us there appreciated _very_ much.

Before that, we saw all of 'Chance'. It was an amusing, interesting film, with shades of 'Ghost World' and 'The Opposite of Sex'. Certainly, I've seen far worse films, like the new 'Matrix' one. Also, it has a few ideas that could be used by 'Buffy' and 'Angel' fanfic writers. :)

This was what Amber talked about:

What was it like, being an actor and director in 'Chance'?

She was helped because there were of a lot of good people there, such as James Marsters and Andy Hallett. In terms of her acting, she wanted to make sure that she remembered her lines. It was 'a lot of fun' and a 'good experience'. The film was shot over 10 days, stretched over 5 weekends. Joss was 'very supportive', allowing some scenes to be shot on a couple of the 'Buffy' sets.

In terms of someone taking up acting:

If it's not your passion, don't do it. If so, go to school, study drama, and have something to back you up if it goes wrong.

Her best 'Buffy' experience:

The musical episode in season 6. She and Michelle Trachtenberg 'lobbied a lot' for it. Nicky Brendon and James Marsters were 'OK' about it, as they could both sing.

When she was recording Tony Head's CD:

Things were 'very off the cuff', and she found that she 'could sing very high'.

Her decision not to appear as Tara in 'Conversations with Dead People' in season 7:

She said that she refused for two reasons. First, due to conflicting dates. She was doing 'Ghosts of Albion' for the BBC at the time, and didn't want to pass on the opportunity. Second, she felt that Tara's end was 'very stressful'; and her agreeing to her coming back (even as a manifestation of the First) would not be the right decision because many people had invested so much in the character. (She had read letters to that effect.) She summed up her choice with: 'You never know what the right decision is'. At the time, she felt that what she did was 'the right decision'.

What was it like, when she was first on 'Buffy'?

Things were 'a little tough'; because she was working with people who had known each other for 31/2 years; but they were 'a good group of people' to work with. She had worked with Seth and Eliza before and was looking forward to working with them again; but she then found that their characters had left the show!

It was 'hard' coming in and taking over from Seth's character, as he was 'one of the funniest people' she had worked with; but she was amused that her character was involved with the same person!

About working with the BBC on 'Ghosts of Albion':

She found the BBC's approach different, they being 'more about the people than the product'. She is 'a perfectionist', who wants things to be done as perfectly as possible.

The hardest bit in her journey to become an actor:

Walking into a room, giving 150%, and not getting something because you are told you're not blonde enough, thin enough, etc. She liked working on 'Buffy' because there was an emphasis on good work.

New projects:

She has a new 'Ghosts of Albion' in the pipeline, as well as something in Manchester.


[> Thanks Liam -- cougar, 09:04:37 12/15/03 Mon

[> Interesting! Thanks. -- Pony, 09:23:20 12/15/03 Mon

Last night on Strong Medicine Juliet Landau -- Ann, 10:21:00 12/15/03 Mon

Juliet Landau was on Strong Medicine last night playing a mother whose daughter had seizures. She did a strong portrayal but she certainly has a Drusilla-like quality to everything she does. She uses hands and finger movement as a reflection of her mental state. Did it as Drusilla and did it last night as her child's placement with her was in jeopardy. It was nice seeing her. She should do more.

I don't usually watch Lifetime but was clicking around and saw her. Just had to stop and watch.

Casting spoiler -- Kate, 14:35:16 12/15/03 Mon

Subject: TV Guide online confirms no SMG on "Angel" this season

Here's the link to the story:

Kind of a bummer, but I can understand in some ways too. Maybe next season . Or better yet, in a few years she'll change her mind and do a "Buffy" movie!! (A girl can hope, lol.) Anyone seen the Japanese film her new project is based on?


Date Posted: 14:11:28 12/15/03 Mon
Author: Pony
Subject: Hmm
In reply to: Kate 's message, "TV Guide online confirms no SMG on "Angel" this season" on 12:51:26 12/15/03 Mon

On the one hand, too bad. I miss Buffy and it would be a lovely boost for AtS during sweeps. On the other, if AtS is coming back for a 6th season I think having SMG on this year would be a frustrating exercise in angsty status quo. I don't think ME would want to lessen the tension of their triangle any time soon so I don't think Buffy's appearance would actually give us resolution for any of the issues her presence would raise. I must must must get some Buffy on AtS before the series ends but I'm hoping that will be next year.

Buffy's Forgiveness -- Claudia, 15:45:06 12/15/03 Mon

While perusing teh forum's archives, I came across some interesting discussions about the church scene between Buffy and Spike in "Beneath You". One topic that caught my attention was Spike's mention of Angel's name.

In this particular post, someone - I forgot who - had pointed out that Angel was at the heart of both Buffy and Spike's reactions to the latter's new soul. This person also pointed out that Buffy's main problem in Season 3 was her belief that Angel was not responsible for "Angelus'" actions in late Season 2, despite Angel's comments that he "was" responsible. The member also added that perhaps deep down, Buffy may have never truly forgiven Angel . . . and perhaps, herself.

After watching "Chosen" for the third time, I am beginning to wonder if Buffy had ever forgiven Angel, myself. Note her reaction to Angel's outburst regarding her relationship with Spike:

"BUFFY: You're not getting the brush-off. Are you just going to come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?

ANGEL: Aha! Boyfriend.

BUFFY: He's not. But... he is in my heart.

ANGEL: That'll end well.

BUFFY: What was the highlight of our relationship- when you broke up with me or when I killed you? I'm well aware of my stellar history with guys and no, I don't see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike. But I don't think that really matters right now. You know, in the midst of all this insanity, a couple of things are actually starting to make sense. And the guy thing... (sighs) I always feared there was something wrong with me. You know, because I couldn't make it work. But maybe I'm not supposed to."

Why did she bring up her "true love's" past Sunnydale crimes and throw it in his face? I don't know. Perhaps she was irritated by Angel's behavior. Or was there more to it?

Giles is another whom I wonder if Buffy has truly forgiven. I'm sure that we all remember the door slammed in his face by Buffy, after his and Robin Wood's failure to kill Spike in "LMPTM". Yet, Buffy's hostility toward her ex-Watcher continued in both "Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places". When Buffy returned to the house on Revello Drive in "End of Days", she seemed to have forgiven everyone for rejecting her in "Empty Places". And yet . . . Giles was the only one who had received any kind of censure over what happened:

"BUFFY: Yeah, I figured that one out when I King Arthured it out of the stone.

WILLOW: So maybe it's like some kind of traditional Slayer weapon.

GILES: I can't imagine how something like this could exist without my having heard of it.

BUFFY: Well, the good guys aren't traditionally known for their communication skills."

At this point, Giles looked away with a guilty expression on his face. And in "Chosen", Giles was the only person whom Buffy had informed on who had saved them in the Hellmouth:

" (Bus pulls over. Buffy comes off the roof and Dawn tackles her in a hug)

GILES: I don't understand. What did this?

BUFFY: Spike."

Mind you, she had only spoken one word. Yet, there seemed to be a touch of acid in Buffy's voice, when she answered the ex-Watcher's question.

All of this has led me to wonder if Buffy had truly forgiven Giles for the events in the last episodes of BtVS S7. If so, are her feelings linked to the fact that he has yet to show any remorse for conspiring to murder Spike . . . and betray her?


[> Re: Buffy's Forgiveness -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:51:01 12/15/03 Mon

Not quite understanding the beginning of your post. The post you refer to concerns Buffy's reaction to Angel's deeds as Angelus, whereas the "Chosen" examples you bring up concern her reaction to his souled actions (breaking up with her, getting jealous of Riley). Not saying I don't think Buffy holds some resentment, just don't see the purpose of tying the two together.

[> memos -- skeeve, 11:38:24 12/16/03 Tue

The good guys have had communication problems before, ones that didn't involve Giles betraying Buffy.

Remember that 'Buffy' paper I wrote for media class? -- Rob, 15:54:07 12/15/03 Mon

I GOT AN A+!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rob :oD


[> What 'Buffy' paper? -- CW, 15:58:56 12/15/03 Mon

Kidding... Congratulations, Rob!

[> Yay! -- Pony, 16:25:56 12/15/03 Mon

See? Obsessions do pay off!

I hope that you'll try and get it published somewhere.

[> Mazol tov! Is it available to read somewhere? -- Cheryl, 17:04:43 12/15/03 Mon

[> Congratulations -- lunasea, 17:12:27 12/15/03 Mon

That means you are going to be in chat again, right?

I take it you had to still present it today. How did that go?

[> go rob!!!!!!!!!!!! -- anom, 17:58:15 12/15/03 Mon

Mazel tov!!!! So I guess the praying for snow worked, but you didn't need it anyway? @>)

[> Way to go, Rob. -- fidhle, 19:07:46 12/15/03 Mon

It is an excellent paper and you well deserved your grade. Now you have to get it ready for publication :-)

[> [> Good for you! Looking forward to reading it... -- jane, 21:35:00 12/15/03 Mon

[> Wow! -- KdS, 23:42:38 12/15/03 Mon

Congratulations, and hope the presentation wasn't too stressful.

[> [> Re: Way to go, Rob! -- Brian, 05:35:07 12/16/03 Tue

[> Shaking a pompom in a restrained English way -- MsGiles, 04:34:07 12/16/03 Tue

[> Stitch that -- Celebaelin, 05:49:05 12/16/03 Tue

Nice one Rob. Do you get extra credit for the sixteen exclamation marks?

[> Re: Remember that 'Buffy' paper I wrote for media class? -- MaeveRigan, 09:13:42 12/16/03 Tue

You're my hero! Wish you were my student!

[> Nice! Congrats, Rob! Now, when do we get to read it? -- DorianQ, 16:52:22 12/16/03 Tue

[> Thank you with great muchness, all! (Answers to peoples' questions and a NOTE TO MY CHAT BUDDIES) -- Rob, 21:57:29 12/16/03 Tue

Those of you who were wondering how my presentation didn't! Or rather, I didn't. We were hit by a snowstorm on Sunday, and although it had stopped snowing by Monday morning, the roads were still extremely wet throughout the day and refroze at night. I e-mailed my professor, explaining that I didn't feel comfortable driving to class, because it would be an at least 45 minute drive home over a bridge at 11 p.m. in very icy conditions. I asked that considering I had been prepared to present two weeks ago and had not been able to due to situations I could not control (she had forgotten to reserve a DVD player for the class, so I couldn't show the clips I'd been planning to present and discuss!), the fact that my paper was over 20 pages longer than required and that I had already provided her with the clips I was going to show, and the fact that the reason I couldn't present last night were also due to circumstances beyond my control (the weather), if she would consider not marking me down for the presentation. I even enclosed the script I had been planning on delivering. She wrote me back in less than an hour, telling me I got an A+, that she was sorry I wouldn't be able to present, but that she was so impressed with the work and recognized that I had been fully prepared that she herself would show the clips to the class and lead a discussion based on my notes. And wouldn't take any points off for my not doing the presentation myself. Ironically, once I heard that, I kind of wanted to do the presentation ("Well, if she likes me that much..." my gloaty brain began thinking), but it really was too treacherous for me to get there. And perhaps the best part of all...she had never seen "Buffy" before my paper, but read the entire thing in one sitting and told me she now plans on watching some more. That's right, I've converted my professor into a Buffy fan! And that alone was worth all the effort. ;o)

Those of you who would like to read my paper...please e-mail me at, and I can either send you a copy or the link where I've posted it on-line. For now, I'm not posting at the board, because I'm trying to submit it to Slayage and I want to wait for word back from them. Thanks to those who suggested I do that. I remember Ponygirl definitely did, and I believe a few other people.

Those of you who miss me in chat (and believe me, I miss you guys even more)...I am currently halfway done with my film class paper, which started out for almost a week being about one thing, which didn't end up working out so I spent the last four days completely rewriting and researching the whole paper on a completely different topic. That is why I've been so completely unreachable. I'm still unbelievably stressed at the moment. In fact, I shouldn't be taking the time to post this now. But I just want you guys to know that I haven't abandoned you...I just get completely tense when I have a lot of homework and can't focus unless I fully cut myself off from all walks of human life till I'm done. I swear, I haven't spoken to any of my RL friends either for the past week. I grunt at my mom every now and then, and call to order Chinese food. I've only been out once to buy some Channukah and Christmas presents for people. The only other times were to go to class. I am a total shut-in at the moment. But I hope to be finished with the paper on Friday. So I swear, this hellish time will be over soon. I will be back for a glorious month of uninterrupted chattage (and I might even go out during the daytime sometimes and hang out with friends and play in the snow wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!!). I love Winter Break!


100th eppisode (SPOILERS) -- spikenamored, 20:46:28 12/15/03 Mon

did any of you guys read the spoilers for the 100th episode on i'd just like to point out that i do not like. Cordelia just leaves, just like that, by herself, in los angeles. I mean, she has the visions; whats she gonna do, help the people in her visions by herself? i think they should havemade this a two parter for resolution to the character. She was a major player for the entire series and it takes a one eppy send off to send her packing? disrespectful in my book. They could at least say...i dont know, im going to go help buffy with my visions and have andrew escort her to where they are. it just seems really incomplete and a just a plain bad ending to a wonderful bright character. She could have had so much more potential...please give me your input


[> Please DO NOT post Future spoilers on this board, use the spoiler board for that -- tom, 06:03:30 12/16/03 Tue

[> [> There was a warning in the subject line, though, so it wasn't such a bad offense. -- Rob, 07:33:44 12/16/03 Tue

[> Future spoilers are allowed... -- Masq, 10:24:08 12/16/03 Tue long as you clearly indicate that they are future spoilers, which you did just fine. We have a link above to a spoiler ("trollop") board run by an ATPo poster, which is where lengthy discussions of future spoilers should take place. Mostly this is because future spoiler threads might lead an enthusiastic poster to accidentally put a future spoiler in a subject line.

But no worries about what you did do.

Saint Buffy? -- fidhle, 20:56:32 12/15/03 Mon

Should Buffy be made a Saint? check out:


[> Re: Saint Buffy? -- Ames, 07:58:57 12/16/03 Tue

As manwitch so cogently pointed out in his post on why we like BtVS, there's a strong tie between the story of Buffy and the stories told by many religions, probably because they both satisfy some deep human needs. It's therefore not surprising that Buffy could be viewed as a religious figure. I doubt she'd qualify as a Catholic saint, but set her story in the 14th century with appropriate changes for the time, and she probably would.

[> Re: Saint Buffy? -- skeeve, 11:26:03 12/16/03 Tue

In terms of sainthood, I thought the article was content-free.

I wonder if coming back from the dead would qualify as one of the necessary miracles.
'Twouldn't go on a prospective St.Willow's miracle list, because Willow wasn't dead yet.

A prospective St. Angel might have coming back from the dead as one of his miracles.
Unlike Buffy, he seems to have returned without mortal help.

[> [> Re: Saint Buffy? -- Dlgood, 08:37:51 12/17/03 Wed

Specific miracles aside, it's the sustained sacrifice of self in the name of duty, almost on a daily basis over the span of several years.

[> Re: Saint Buffy? -- frisby, 12:48:28 12/18/03 Thu

with season 5 she sacrificed herself to save the world

with season 6 she was resurrected (not complete until the 22nd episode)

& with season 7 her new church begins

so she already "is" a saint

Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs in French or Spanish? What fun!! -- Artemis, 00:50:30 12/16/03 Tue

First off, I don't speak another language but I enjoy foriegn films.

So I found it so much fun listening to Buffy in French and Spanish, with English subtitles.I particularly enjoyed the French version because the acting (which is just as much voice as it is physical presence) was far superior.

It seemed as if the French actors tried harder to follow the intonations of the Buffy writing style and had a better flow of the comical and dramatic readings of the dialogue for each character.

The actress who played Buffy had a poignant yet strong quality to her voice. There was a richness to it, yet she could turn a phrase with the quickness of SMG. I did not feel this with the Spanish version of Buffy.

I watched S5, "Forever" tonight, in French and watching SMG and MT beautifully played final scene with the voices of two excellent french actresses made me cry.

The voices for Willow, Anya and Xander were great too. I even thought that this is what NB might sound like if he was French.

For Those who didn't like the Glory character. You might find you enjoy her more in French.

Spike took a little getting use to. JM delivers his lines with more varied intonations than the French actor. But after I got use to this really deep voice the French Spike had, I was better able to enjoy his vocal energy. However I really have to give the Spanish actor, more credit for his Spike. When he said, "I love you" to Buffy in Crushed followed by the lines "I'm drowning in you Summers.... I just about melted. He wasn't great in anything else but he blew me away with that line reading.

The most amazing thing was that I found myself laughing at the way they turned a phrase. In some of the funnier episodes like "Intervention" I didn't just laugh at the words which of course are funny, but the way the actors said them.

If you haven't tried watching Buffy this way, check it out. If you have tell me what you thought. Maybe you liked the Spanish version better.


[> Re: Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs in French or Spanish? What fun!! -- The Sorcerer, 04:20:38 12/16/03 Tue

I have and agree that the French acting is far superior the Spanish in that respect. The Spanish actors just do not seem to be willing to stick with the script and timing thereof as the French are. (So much for Anya's theories on the French, eh? Hey. I should watch that episode in French.)

In any matter, I wonder if the dubbers get any credit or recognition in their home countries for their work? After all, Buffy is pretty popular in the non-English speaking countries, so I wonder how involved and starstruck the dubbers get.

[> [> Re: Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs in French or Spanish? What fun!! -- Marc Bastide, 08:16:37 12/16/03 Tue

I am French, and I can tell you I can prefer English version. The french text is sometimes so far from the english that most of the jokes are lost. And you have so many characters with the same voice, like the guy who dubbed Riley was used for secondary characters for all previous 4 seasons that it was disturbing, when you re-watch older episodes.
I can tell, with what I read from French forums, only those who do not understand English at all stay on French version.

The names of the dubbers are indicated at the end of the episode, but who read that? Only the most fanatics even know the name of the dubbers.

Funny note : in Restless, the text said in French (very bad) by Giles and Anya have been dubbed in Arabian ...

[> [> [> Re: Has anybody watched their Buffy DVDs in French or Spanish? What fun!! -- MaeveRigan, 09:21:00 12/16/03 Tue

The french text is sometimes so far from the english that most of the jokes are lost.

Thanks for this commentary, Marc. It confirms what I suspected after watching an episode or two in French, though my French is rather rusty.

The linguistic style of BtVS seems so distinctive, that I've often wondered how well it comes off in translation, and whether its popularity in Germany, France, & Italy is primarily due to the power of the narratives themselves and the appealing characters, or whether most people watch it in English, if possible.

[> [> [> Interesting -- CW, 10:36:58 12/16/03 Tue

Especially the bad French in Restless. I'm a specialist in Slavic. When Glory and the monks spoke Czech in No Place Like Home, I could understand every word of it. But I honestly had no idea what language they were speaking (I was guessing Polish).

[> Good way to practice a language -- mamcu, 09:48:08 12/16/03 Tue

I agree that the Spanish and French dubbing is terrible, but I do it sometimes to try help myself keep in practice with those languages (not like I'm fluent--just trying to pick out words here and there). Wish they'd have a Mandarin track!

[> [> Not just good, best way ever, for me -- shambleau, 13:49:45 12/17/03 Wed

I have seen every ep (except AtS's last three seasons) ME has produced multiple times, so I know what's being said in almost every scene. It's a wonderful way to bring your aural comprehension level back up to speed. It's been close to twenty years since I lived in France and while I can still read French and get a good deal of it - listening? Not so much. Or not until I started listening this way. I haven't tried listening to a French news broadcast or a non-dubbed movie lately, but I know I'm better. It'll be interesting to see by how much. I plan to continue, too. What a painless way to bring back my French!

I've been watching S5 and Firefly lately. Several of the dubbers for Firefly seem off to me. Book has a much deeper, more authoritative voice, Wash, a less assertive, quieter tone, while Mal's dubber is pretty close, as is Inara's. For Buffy, I agree with the evaluation of the dubbers others have noted, and I'd add the one who does Willow too. And Oz sounds just the same! Giles and Anya don't come off that well, though.

I did read interviews with a couple of the French dubbers on a site some years ago, in French. It was after S3, I think. They loved doing the show, by the way.

[> Buffy Soundtrack (spoilerish?) -- The Sorcerer, 06:09:15 12/17/03 Wed

I absolutely love a lot of the background soundtracks, but am having a hell of time locating them or their titles, if they even have any!

For instance, I love the sountrack to scene where Willow opens up a can of whoop-ass on Glory in Season 5's "Tough Love", but I cannot find a name to it. The heavy brasses remind me of ancient Egypt for some reason.

I also love the vocals and orchestral music behind the menu Language & Audio submenu on "The Body" menu. I know this certainly would not be on a soundtrack in and of itself, but I recognize it from a scene in BtVS. If I recall correctly, it's the scene in "Real Me" where Buffy is performing that wonderful acrobatic feat of doing a one-hand-stand on a wooden block in the teaser. Simply beautiful is the only way to describe it.

fiction netiquette? -- MsGiles, 08:37:03 12/16/03 Tue

I mentioned playing about with plots a bit back? Well, one just turned into kind of an episode. I guess in terms of creating a new building from the bricks of the existing episodes and characters, it's rather in the garden shed league, but I have this insane desire to post it. It's not War and Peace (now there's a thought), it's about 7000 words, and it's in the form of a script (that was less work, because I don't have to describe so much) and I've tried to weed it for trolls, Sues, typoes and gross violations of character. It's sort of set between S5 and S6. So what should I do? Could I post it here? Or on a fanfic board? Should I get it beta'd first, and who would do that? (gulp)


[> Re: fiction netiquette? -- The First Naughty Virtue, 10:27:13 12/16/03 Tue

Fiction set in the Buffyverse is what the Fictionary Corner of the Existential Scoobies is all about. Send it to LadyStarlight or use the submission form here. At the moment though, her computer time is limited so it may take a while to get it up there. [muses: maybe we need a backup system for FC]

Meanwhile, I don't see why you can't post it here. 7000 words isn't that long (not by our standards, anyway). [grin]

As far as beta-reading, it's certainly not a requirement, but there may be some of the people on this borad who would volunteer?

[> [> many thanks, will do. I also asked the Scoobies: -- MsGiles, 01:42:57 12/17/03 Wed

This is what they said:

Xander: Just go ahead. Or maybe not. excuse me, I have to get to work.
Anya: (brightly) Go ahead and post your little opus (encouraging smile). No-one will read it.
Willow: Publicly? Um, probably not. A bit scary.
dark Willow: (glares and incinerates post with glance)
Tara: If you post, that's not wrong. And if you don't post, that not wrong either.
Giles: On a computer? No, no. Why not write a book?
Spike: Sod it, just post the bugger
Buffy: (counselling mode) That's wonderful! You should do it! What was the question?

[> Here goes. 'Dust Settles' part 1 -- MsGiles, 02:25:43 12/17/03 Wed

The question that started this was, how did the mess left in The Gift get cleared up? It seemed like an awful lot had happened in the six weeks odd between The Gift and Becoming

Please point out mistakes and things I've forgotten. I'm new to this game. Suggestions for how to make it better also welcome.

I've copped out rather by doing it as a script - this means the reader has to imagine the actors playing it, so you do more of the creative work. Or I could spin that, and say I've deliberately used this form to open up a creative space in the work for the expression of individual imagination.


Either assume that this takes place in a parallel universe where the last shot of The Gift was the group at the bottom of the tower, or start with the final shot of the gravestone and dissolve into the intro sequence as a sort of flashback.


Previously on BtVS clips: Glory&Dawn, monks, coma, Tara&Glory, Buffy&Dawn on tower, sunrise, leap


(About 10 am on the morning of the leap. Industrial area, wreckage, creaking sounds. Glory's tower is outlined against the risen sun, barely visible in the glare. Cut to a shot looking down from partway up the tower. Giles is at the base of the tower, looking up. Then a panning shot from the tower, showing a mass of people, moving slowly away, mostly crawling, limping, groping.)

Giles (vo, shouting, stressed but trying to put on reassuring voice) Just hang on, hang on a bit longer. I know you're hurt, but you'll be alright. Now, don't do anything sudden. Just hold tight, and we'll get you down. Stop a moment and breathe deeply. That's it. That's better.

(OH shot of Giles, looking up, as bar detaches and crashes to the ground)

G: (increased nervousness) Don't worry! Don't let go. We won't let you go. You're getting down. Can you hear me? You have to hang on.

(Giles shields his eyes as the sun hits his face, peering into the tangle of struts. Distant sirens gradually added to the creaking noises)

G: You're doing very well, very well indeed. No! Don't move suddenly. Listen to me, Dawn, move very slowly and go to your left. Reach that big bar on your left. That's it, now take hold. Good! Now, carefully does it. One more step and we'll be there.

(Refocus to show Dawn, clinging to the tower)

D: I can't

G: (firmly) Dawn! Look at me! Look into my eyes. Good. Now, just to your right, there's a bar. Do you think you can take hold of that? Take hold of the bar, Dawn. Good girl. Now stop a moment, breathe. That's it. Right, next move ..

(Dawn shutting eyes)

Ambulanceman VO: What happened here again? An accident? What do you mean, they don't know? This is a populated area, and I've got an emergency situation. This is a major incident. I can't understand why they don't know! Tell them we need the area cordoned off.

(Somewhere nearby, emergency services in the background. Ambulanceman talking on radio. Shift pov to show Willow standing to his side)

AM: (to Willow) Are you responsible for these people? Where the hell they all from? (on radio) I need more people, I'm telling you, we have a major incident. (to Willow) What the hell has been happening here? (to colleague) Treat for shock. Get them in the vans. (to Willow) Do you know anything about this? Did you call us? Where was the accident?

(people sitting or crawling all around, staring vacantly into space. They look blank, some are swaying and moaning slightly)

W: (innocently) I just came by, I saw all these people, I-I heard noise, (bright idea) an earthquake maybe. I don't know where they came from. I need to find someone ..

AM: I'll need your name (turns to get clipboard. When he turns back, Willow is no longer there) Hey!

Crazyperson: (suddenly animated) Gone, gone, all gone. Lost .. (subsides again)


(Further over on the tower site, away from the road, Xander is crouching over the buffybot, which is twitching and buzzing slightly. He is adjusting the head, which appears to be taped on)

bot: (fzzt) Hello. I seem to have a malfunction.

Anya VO: Don't worry, Buffy. We'll mend you. We'll get you sorted out. (agitated) Why won't she answer?

(Xander looks up.)

X: An, come over here and help me

A: We can't leave her

X: An, come here

A: (agitated) This is bad, Xander. I feel bad things, and I think Buffy's dead. Why are you over there? We must get her to a hospital. We should give her resuscitation. We need a defibrillator. I've seen it on ER. What are you doing? Help me, Xander!

X: (very patient, controlling himself) An, come over here. I need you to help me here. Willow fixed it up, but I'm not sure it's working properly. We may need it (he gets it on its feet, where it remains standing, unsteadily. Duct tape is clearly visible round its neck. Anya reluctantly comes over). Just take the weight.

bot: (fzzt) I have sustained damage. However, I am repairable. Do you wish me to provide diagnostic report?

X: Great. Take the bot back to the flat and wait there for me. Go on, I'll be OK, Anya. You'll be Ok. Go on. (kisses her forehead).

A: It's heavy, Xander! I don't want to be on my own! Oh! (An goes off with the bot, unsteadily).

bot: My gyroscopic stabilisers are at 2% effectiveness. My fighting capability has been shut down until repair is performed. My Spike servicing capabilities are 10% operational. (fading into distance) My head is insecurely attached...

(Xander slowly turns towards towards the tower. As he starts to walk, a small cloaked shape jumps on him and knocks him to the ground. He picks himself up, finds himself facing a minion. He grabs it and punches it away, only for several more to run past him, kicking his legs on the way. )

X: Ow! (he turns to look after them, then starts to run, limping) What? No!

end of prologue
part 1

( M tracking shot of Tara, wandering alone though industrial buildings. Willow comes round a corner, into camera, and walks beside her, taking her arm. As the camera tracks, we see the tower looming, over the top of buildings. The occasional police car whines past. )

W: Where are you going, Tara? Are you wandering off again? Are you still OK?

T: Everything is strange still. Where have I been? (they walk) We were building, weren't we? I'm tired. When did day come? Everything's ended, hasn't it? Or has it? (startles, unfocussed) The door is closed, and it won't open any more (weeps).

W: Hey, easy does it, baby. Come here.

T: Willow, you're here. Where are you, Willow?

W: You're with me, baby. The world hasn't ended yet. You'll be better soon, I promise. We have to get you away from here. All hell is breaking loose back there. It's not as bad as all hell breaking loose, though. Let's keep walking. Can you keep walking?

T: They want to go home.

W: (sadly) We all want to go home. I want you to come home, Tara. Come with me now. Are you still here with me? We need to hurry just a little.


(Giles at the base of the tower and Dawn on the structure. Dawn is nearly down, reaching down to Giles. )

G: Now, put your foot on that bar, by my hand. That's very good. Now move your foot a little. That's wonderful. (shakes hand and grimaces)

(Suddenly Dawn slips, and falls the final few feet, with a gasp. She knocks over Giles. They pick themselves up. At this point, several minions rush in to grab Dawn. She reacts, gets to her feet, manages to shake them off, and climbs up the structure again, much quicker than she came down. They start climbing after her, and then the whole thing gives a mighty creak. A bar falls. Everyone freezes. )

Minion1: Get her! We'll be late! We'll be too late!

M2: (dubiously) We'll get squashed. And it's already too late.

Dawn (panicked): No!

Xander (catching up) Hey!

M1: Up!

(They start climbing, but a bar hits the topmost minion on the structure, and it falls off. Pull back, we see Giles has thrown the bar. he picks up another, and hits another minion. One jumps on his back, he backs it into the tower. Dawn grabs a bit of metal and hits the fingers of one climbing up to her, and it falls off. Xander comes up with them, grabs the minion on Giles' back and punches it hard. The remainder of the minions give up and run off)

G: (throws down the bar, looks up the structure. He thinks all the getting down bit is starting again) Dawn?

(A small shape nearly knocks him over again - it's Dawn, who is back on the ground. She grabs hold opf him in a hug)

G: Good girl. (detaching himself) How are you? (notices the stomach cut) We need to get you home. Where's Anya?

X: (hesitantly) We need to ... there are people arriving .. (looks over towards the tower, swallows).

G: Take Dawn home and go to the Magic Shop. I'll handle things here. Hurry. The police will have their hands full for the moment, and Glory concealed the tower, but we haven't got long.

(as Xander departs with Dawn, Giles goes towards Buffy's body, taking off his coat)

Police voice: Stop right there!


( Willow and Tanya face a policeman. )

W: Can we help you, Officer?

Cop: This area is closed to the public.

W: My friend was feeling ill. I was just taking her home.

C: (suspiciously, to Tara) Ill?

T: (with effort) I'm just .. a bit wobbly. There was, I think there might have been an earthquake, you know, a tremor (smiles optimistically but not very convincingly).

W: She hit her head, but she's OK now, really. Nothing serious, she just needs to sit down. What's going on, officer (best innocent smile)

C: (frowns, then distracted by radio call) You must vacate the area. (starts talking on radio)

W: Yes, of course, officer. We'll be on our way then. (they hurry off)


(Xanders's flat. Anya and bot, in the bathroom. Anya is wiping its face. )

A: Stay still! Stop buzzing. We might need you, so you'd better pull your electronic self together. You're all the Buffy we've got, now, you .. you electric thing.

b: I require service.

A: Self, self, self. You robots are all the same. My head hurts and (looks in mirror) I'm cut. *I* require service. (dabs at face)

b: I..

A: stop it! Go and sit down! Now. (bot goes) Wait! Don't leave me on my own. I might be concussed. I have to stay awake. (following) Talk to me!

( cut to A and b sitting on the sofa )

A: .. and so I asked Xander about it, but he didn't seem that interested. How could he not be worried? I know it was only a small wart, but he should have looked at it. It could have been a cancerous growth. You know I wonder if he really understands being human. He doesn't realise how fragile he is (pause) and I am. You wouldn't understand, not being human.

b: (buzzes slightly, and lights flicker where it's cut)

A: (talking faster) But I intend to earn enough to get proper medical care for when I get older. They can do a lot, you know. It's not like it used to be, strap half a pig on it and hope for the best. Giles needs to get me proper insurance, because that shop is a death trap. Workers have rights. Do you know I get electric shocks off the cash register? (They sit, A pauses to look at bot properly)

A: (tearing up) You look a little fused.

b: I have limited functionality at present. (pause) I have good Slaying capabilities. I kick ass.

A: Do you think I should marry Xander?

b: (fzzt! psszz! clic!) You are a remarkable person, Anya

A: (surprised out of her teary fit) Do you think so? I am rather unique. But Xander ..

b: You are so strong! I always feel I can rely on you.

A: Why, thankyou, Buffybot. I am not always valued for my abilities, it's true.

b: You are misunderstood. Anyone would be attracted to you.

A: Why doesn't Xander always see that? He says he loves me, but then he gets irritated, and has to go put up shelves.

b: That was my sympathy program. Would you like me to run that program again?

A: Do you have a manual?


( A little later, in the Magic Shop. Willow has Tara sat at the table. Giles comes in from the back room, wiping his hands on a rag. )

W: What..?

(stops, hesitates, starts again)

W: er .. what ..

G: Protocol.

W: (more forcefully) What?

G: There is a protocol to follow. (looking down) It's not .. it's not as if this is an .. an uncommon eventuality in Watching circles (takes off glasses, wipes eyes with rag)

W: Having temporary sisters who are keys to dimensional gateways that let invading hellgods open the universe to the forces of darkness is common?

G: No, no. I mean .. (gestures to back room)

W: Ah. What do we have to do, Giles?

G: (sighs) We can't tell the authorities. The forces of darkness are too strong, around the hellmouth. Only fear has been keeping them back. Fear ..

W: .. of the Slayer

G: (nods)

W: So we have to hold them off until (thought) until the next Slayer arrives?

G: It's more difficult than that. Buffy is .. was .. no longer the official Slayer. After she .. (looks down a moment) .. that honour passed to Kendra, and then Faith. Faith is not able to be with us at the moment. She has troubles of her own. No. (looks up) We're going to have to manage somehow. Until we can think of something.

W: (not happy) So what *are* we going to do now? You're saying all the nasties are going to be coming for us, once they know there's no Slayer? Maybe I should be working on a spell, a protection spell. Or maybe I could seal the hellmouth. Even ..

G: The energies around the hellmouth make magic very unpredictable here, Willow, I don't necessarily think that would be a good idea. We might need something a little more .. physical. Sadly, we cannot match the fighting abilities of a Slayer, even working together. (thinks) I will have to contact the Council. Perhaps they can find us some temporary - ah - assistance.

T: Has something happened to Buffy? (they all turn to look at her) Where is Dawn? Does Glory have Dawn? What's been happening? It's coming back. I was waiting for Willow, I think I went to sleep. I had a nightmare. How did I end up walking where you found me?

W: I brought you back. (looks at Giles)

T: It was a nightmare ..

(they look at Tara)


Xander's flat, Xander and Dawn have arrived back. Anya cleaning Dawn up, bandaging.

A: There, Dawnie! Good as new! Good as new in a cut-to-bits way, that is. Here (helps her into bathrobe) I'll even let you get body fluids on my new bathrobe. What a lucky little ex key you are! Now come over here, sit there, and don't move suddenly.

D: Buffy!

A: Buffy .. Buffy's fine (unconvincingly. Looks helplessly at Xander) Buffy, Buffy..

D: Buffy jumped!

A: Yes, well. Buffy's dead. (Xander jumps, Dawn looks stunned). But she's fine. She's dead, but she's fine. She's as fine as you can be when you're .. dead.

D: (panicking) Glory!

A: Quiet now. Ben's dead too. You see, Ben was Glory, and she turned back into Ben, and Glory was bad, but they were leaking into each other like, oh, like two leaky things, and Giles, you see, Giles...

X: (softly) Buffy!

A: (consoling, then losing it) Stop! People die! It's what they do, they die. You'll die too! I'll die! George Clooney will die! (crying). When I'm dead I won't have a job any more. No money and no sex.

D: I should be dead!

A: You shouldn't have been here in the first place. Why did those monks have to go and mess everything up? Key this and Key that. Sorry. Would you like some juice?

X: An!

A: What? You need to have fluids when you're in shock. Dawn is in shock. Her sister, who was our only protection against the forces of darkness, has just died to save her, and she's in shock.

bot: I fight evil, and I am cool.

(they turn to look at it)

bot: I am shutting down now. Please perform service operations and restart. Thankyou! (clic)


( In the Magic Shop. Giles is on the telephone. Willow is comforting Tara)

G: Yes, of course. Yes! (irritated) I'm sure you have the essentials. I'd rather not, no. Have you ..? Ah, I see. Well, what is the alternative? (pause) Have you called LA? Oh. Oh, I see. If that's the best, then yes. Indeed. (annoyed) I'll call again when you have the file! Thankyou very much!

(puts phone down)

G: They're sending the nearest available help. I'm not sure they appreciate the seriousness of the situation here. Apparently they've been having some trouble abroad , in .. ah .. in the former Soviet Union, this time, and they can't spare much attention. They send their .. uh .. condolences.

W: What?

G: They're sorry.

W: They're sorry (nodding). (then alarmed) So what do we do now?

G: A helper is arriving in three hours. Willow, can you meet him? He can stay at Revello Drive.. (in response to pained look from Willow) er .. make him up a bed on the couch. Tell him the essentials, and I'll be over later on. I .. I have a few things to do.


(Revello Drive, the hall. Willow comes in through the front door, with Crocodile Dundee type in tow, complete with hat, waistcoat, leather pants, bandolier with stakes. They go through to to living room, where Tara is sitting on the settee)

W: Hi. This is Colly.


[> [> part 2 -- MsGiles, 02:27:12 12/17/03 Wed

(Part 2)

W: Colly, this is Tara, she ..

C: Pleased to meet you, Tara! Pardon me, but have you got any food? I guess we'll be out hitting the hotspots tonight, I could murder a bite to eat. What do you have for hotspots here, then? Graveyard? They had me watching the crem up in Denver. You wouldn't believe how many come to on the conveyor belt, and break for it when they feel the heat. Can't get far of course, hide in the drapes. Phew! So you guys are on your own (look at them dubiously). They tell me the hellmouth is quite something.

W: Come through to the kitchen, and I'll find something. Will you be OK on the settee tonight, after patrol? You could have Buffy's bed but ..

C: Oh, don't worry about me. Got a porch? I'll be fine out there. (unshoulders bedroll). Food'd be great, though. Got any beers in? I'd kill for a beer (winks, follows Willow into kitchen).

( Kitchen. Willow gets a beer out of the fridge and gives it to Colly )

C: Fill me in on Sunnydale, then. You get a lot of apocalypses starting here, I take it? Those Watchers seemed pretty uptight about the whole deal. Couldn't get much sense out of them, to be honest with you. Dealing with Watchers .. phew!. Those guys are so much up their own backsides ... they pay well, though. Beats reptiles.

W: You wrestle alligators?

C: No, no, what gave you that idea?

W: Well, the .. clothing maybe?

C: Fair point. It's cover. No-one questions a guy with corks round his hat.

W: You're a spy?

C: Got recruited by the Council when I was at college. Idealistic student, keen to fight evil, that sort of thing. I was at Brisbane Uni, herpetology research. Couple of papers on toad poison, before I gave it all up for this business.

W: (interested) Oh. Toads? I have a kind of .. professional .. interest in toads. (Colly looks up) Eye of toad, you know..

C: Witch, huh? So so what species gives the best eye?

W: Eye? er .. toady .. warts .. crawly .. I've no idea, really. But I'm sure it's very interesting!


(Giles on the phone, in the Magic Box)

G: (annoyed)I'm sorry, but it's not really very satisfactory. I don't want to criticise your actions .. well, actually I *do* want to criticise. Most forcefully..
(pause) That's unfair. Very unfair. And unhelpful. The immediate danger from the gateway may have passed, but..
(pause) (very annoyed) I think you're being incredibly shortsighted. The forces on the hellmouth in Sunnydale form a global threat. It's only the *amateur efforts* you refer to that have averted a more serious situation building up over the last five years. And the gateway ..
(pause) You don't have to remind *me* of my current status.
(pause) No, I haven't been over here too long, I'm just speaking my mind.
(long pause) Very well. If that's your last word.
(pause) Oh, I will, I will. As soon as I can manage it.
(pause) And you! (phone down hard)

Holds phone down on handset, looks into the air for a long moment, settling thoughts.

G: The Council are so .. so .. (lost for words) .. up their own backsides! (pause, cleans glasses)
(thoughtfully) Maybe I have been over here too long.


(the graveyard )

Colly is patrolling, beer in one hand, stake in the other, Xander walking a little behind him.

C: .. and then there was this big bastard one time, caught me without stakes, you know? Talk about shitting bricks! (Xander looks interested) Don't know how I got out of that one. (he looks disappointed) Never worked with a Slayer, heard a lot about them. Oh, I've done my bit for the Council. Mainly observing, though, stuff like that. Spying, I guess. Lying low, staying outta sight. Bit of housework, now and again.

X: (incredulous) Housework?

C: Y'know, dusting.

(Vampire jumps Xander)

X: (falling over) hey!

C: No worries! (Jumps on vamp and pulls him off. Tussle ensues. They disappear behind gravestones, X following. Thumps, grunts. The vampire jumps up on a gravestone, and then dives down again. Xander hovers, trying to get a stake in. Eventually C emerges, rather the worse for wear.)

C: Struth! They're mean bastards for sure. Y'got many like that?

X: (not wanting to offend) er .. Watch out!

(another vamp jumps C and he goes down again)


(Revello Drive, living room. Colly is having a cut patched by Willow. Xander and Anya come in with bot (carried) and Dawn, limping)

C: Hi there! Good to meet you! Giles?

X: Xander!

C: (more quietly) This the Slayer?

W: Oh .. ah .. that's .. that's the Buffybot.

C: Robot lookalike, huh? Fantastic! You must all be pretty cut up about all this. (Spike comes in) You Giles?

S: No

A: (aside) Is that the Buffy substitute?

W: No! Not the substitute. He's just helping out. He works for the Council.

A: What do they think we have? Crocodiles?

W: (quietly) He's more for the toads, actually

S: (quietly to Dawn) Dawn?

A: We've got her bandaged up. She's no use now though. Why is she still here?

S: (to Dawn) It hurts. (Dawn nods. She doesn't trust herself to speak)

W: (realising) Dawn, come upstairs, you need to lie down. Don't worry, we'll stay with you. (Tara and Willow help Dawn out of the room)

(Giles comes in)

G: Spike, can you ..

(Spike goes out)

G: Ah .. Xander, can ..

X: Giles! This is the help (waves at Colly)

G: How do you .. can you ..

C: Good to see you, mate! Can I have a word?

(ushers Giles into kitchen)

C: I know I've only just got here, Giles, mate. Don't know how to say this. It's not just the vamps, I can handle myself, but something here feels bad. I dust the odd vamp here and there, y'know, but this hellmouth .. well, this is a bit much. I'm putting a report in, think they might take a bit of notice. Do my best to help you fellas out, put a word in, I've got a few contacts, y'know?. Just not much use to you in the stake department. All respect to you people, no worries, but I'm off. Thanks for the beers! (Colly goes out the back way, picking up bedroll)


G: No worries.


(Night. Tara, in pyjamas, going down the stairs at the house. She lets herself out, and walks into the night. A structure is being built. A huge crowd of subdued people are carrying scaffolding and bricks. The thing towers into the sky, it looks like the famous painting of the Tower of Babel. Tara walks into view carrying a brick, and looks at it. Ben comes up to her)

B: (urgently) There are no foundations!

(the ground shakes, and the tower totters. Now Tara is on the tower, looking over woodland. (POV Tara) The tower continues to creak and shake. It seems very high. Glory is suddenly close, in the structure of the tower)

Gl: Does my butt look big in this?

(the tower starts to fall. Tara hangs on. As she hangs on, slipping, suddenly she sees Glory even closer)

Gl: (in Dawn's voice) Take me home.

(Tara wakes with a start. Willow is leaning over her)

W: You are home, Tara. Tara, wake up, you are home.


(Tara and Willow downstairs, Willow giving Tara a hot drink)

T: I think there was Dawn, and the tower. I can't remember. Willow, do you think Glory might be still in my mind? Do you think she could have left a bit of herself in there, somewhere?

(Willow looks worried)

T: In my dream, Glory became Dawn

W: Dawn fought back, Tara. Glory didn't control her. The monks gave her a mind of her own.

(Dawn, letting herself out of the house, coat on, then walking in the night. Sounds of distant alarms, shouts and sirens. She comes to the tower, now cordoned off. She looks up at it for a while, then walks on, unresolved. Sounds of wind in the trees, an owl hooting. She walks in woodland. She stops in a clearing lit by the moon, and the sound of a distant pipe filters through. It's a mournful flute, a Japanese tune, a long sinking note with a little flourish at the end. Dawn stops and listens for a moment. Fear goes through her eyes. Branches seem to touch her face. She breaks and runs, falling over tree roots and stones. The roots seem to grasp her legs. She cries out)


[> [> [> part3 -- MsGiles, 02:28:14 12/17/03 Wed

Part 3

(back at the house. the door bursts open, Dawn rushes in, slams the door, rushes to the sofa (where the bot is recharging, plugged in to the mains) hides her head under the cushions. Willow comes in, in pyjamas, sits down and puts her arms round her. Tara follows, a few minutes later)

W: Dawnie, Dawnie, what's wrong? What happened?

(Dawn can't speak from terror, but she buries her head in Willow's arm. Willow and Tara look at each other, over her head)

W: Is there something out there? What were you doing out, Dawnie? You're not well.

T: It's not Glory. Willow, I'd know.

D: So scared. All alone.

W: Not alone, Dawn, not alone.

bot: I am not alone.

(they look at it)

bot: I can rely on Spike. (It smiles peacefully and switches off again)

W: I think I should look at that. Dawnie, why were you outside? You need to rest, you know that. Where were you going?

D: I .. I was in the woods. I wanted to go into the woods. Giles .. Giles said Buffy was going into the woods. She'll be there, Willow. She'll be there on her own. I wanted to see ..

W: Dawnie .. (hugs) We'll all go, we'll go tomorrow. We'll go in the sunshine, Giles will show us the way. Not in the night, all full of scary things.

D: Willow .. was she my sister? Was she really my sister?

W: Of course she was! Wasn't she, Tara. She was your sister, your loving sister. And you were hers.


(woods, day. Giles and Xander, carrying shovels)

G: Here. I think we're far enough out of town now.

X: Under this tree? With the view?

G: It hardly ..

X: I know, I know, Mr Sentimental Idiot here. Just tell me to dig and I'll dig.

G: (Polishing glasses) You're not the only one.

X: (panic) No! Don't go emotional on me, Giles! Stay buttoned up! Please!

G: (sighs) Dig here.

(they start digging)

X: (stopping) What are we going to do, Giles? How are we going to cope? This is futile! We can't be doing this. We can't carry on. We should give ourselves up! It's hopeless without .. without ..

G: Buffy relied on us. We relied on her. Now we need to rely on ourselves.

X: The Watchers don't care. The police are running away. No-one cares, Giles!

G: You've been listening to Anya.

X: Well, she has a point. (starts digging again) I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know what's right.

G: I think perhaps Willow..

X: Willow is not Buffy, Giles. She's not a Slayer.

G: She's stronger than you think (stopping and wiping glasses). She has skills which may help us ..


(Willow and bot. It still has duct tape)

W: There .. that should restore the factory settings. Now, when I restart you, the imprinting process should boot up, and our friend Spike should be out of your system. You will be so over him. He will be history, buffybot. You are your own bot, now Let's go! (switches)

(bot flickers etc., starts to look aware)

W: Hello buffybot.

bot: Hello. I am Buffy. I am pleased to meet you. What are you called?

W: I'm Willow.

bot: Hello Willow. I like you. Tell me everything about yourself.

W: Well, er .. I'm your friend.

bot: You are my friend, Willow. I am so happy. What would you like me to do? I have many default programmes to give you pleasure, and I can also learn new ones. I can also make light conversation, be interested in your hobbies and cook simple but tasty meals. What would you like to do next, Willow? We could have some fun (winks)

W: (taken aback) I think I might .. switch you off again (does so) Shock!

T: (coming in) Isn't it working?

W: Oh, it's working, it's working .. a bit too well. (Tara looks puzzled) I haven't got used to Buffy being dead, I certainly can't cope with her coming on to me. I mean the bot.

T: Can you change it?

W: I think so. I hope so! (they look at bot)


(night, near the newly dug grave. It might be just possible to see a coffin, among the trees near it)

Spike (vo): Are you sure this is deep enough?

Xander (coming out of trees): Should I dig some more?

S: I'm joking, moron. (he climbs out of the grave). She won't be getting out of this in a hurry. (dusts himself down)

X: Not funny. (collapsing) I don't think I can dig any more, anyway. So where were you when there was work to be done? Not around, big surprise.

S: Daylight??

X: Patrol??

S: So I haven't been there for you. Oh, bad boy Spike. As if I care.

X: You haven't ever been good. Just out for yourself. Now you're proving it.

S: Oh, and I suppose you ..

Giles (coming through the trees) Is everything ready?

Bot (behind him): I am so happy to help you, Rupert. You are such a good teacher. I will train every day. Hello! Are you Rupert's students too?

G: Down there. Carefully, now. (they go to the coffin) Now wait there. (looks up) Are Willow and Tara here yet?

X: Willow wanted to find some book. She's bringing Dawn. What on earth ..

G: Is Dawn .. should Dawn ..

X: She wanted to come, Giles.

(the low, eerie note of the flute floats across. They fall silent. The note floats again. They move together slightly, we can see the whites of their eyes. The night seems to grow a little darker, the trees to crowd in. Only the bot is unaffected, smiling happily round)

S: What the bloody hell was that?


(Back at the house. Willow is surrounded by a pile of books. Tara is dozing)

W: It was here somewhere, I'm sure of it. It just seemed so right. Of course, then I didn't know .. but I thought of Buffy. When she was in that coma. Oh Tara, she can't be gone! Can she? She was in the coma .. but she came back. I brought her back. I always brought her back. This isn't right.

T: (asleep): Nearly there ..

W: (starting to cry a little) But it's in here somewhere. (giving up, sits down, snuffles) I should go. We should go, Tara. Tara?

(the door bangs open, and Xander, Giles and Spike burst in. Spike shuts the door and locks it, then stands at bay behind it. Xander goes to the weapons chest, throws an axe to Giles and takes a club himself. They all stand tensely facing the door. Slowly they all realise that nothing is following them, and start to relax, and then they stand there, looking and feeling foolish.)

W: Why are you here?

T: What are you frightened of?

S: (gesturing to door) There was .. um ..

X: It was after us ..

G: A big scary ..


G: Nothing. (throws weapon down) Nothing was after us. We panicked.

X: There was something. What was that music?

S: (rolling eyes) Yes! We were chased by the wind section of the Sunnydale Philharmonic.

W: And it made you run all the way back here? (realises) Where's Buffy? Buffy's body?

G: Oh my God!

X: (to Spike) You left her!

S: WE left her. Me, you, Yoda here and .. wait

G: The Buffybot!

W: You left the bot? Out in the woods? With Buffy's body?

G: Now .. er .. don't worry. I'm sure they will be .. (peters out)

X: (voicing all their thoughts) We'd better get back!

Dawn: (limping in, all bandaged, but dressed to go out) I think you should look at the news.


(in the woods. The bot is sitting on the coffin, looking optimistic. The flute music plays. The bot smiles, absently. A shadowy figure becomes partly visible, in the shrubs behind the bot. It's hard to see, but there is an impression of a sharp, handsome male face, with a goatee and possibly small curling horns (it's hard to make out, in all the curly hair) he looks a bit like Craig David, and moves with a loose, fluid step. He comes forward, behind the bot, and puts an MP3 player down.)

Pan: A music lover. Like the tune?

bot: I am waiting for Rupert. What are you called?

P: Hey, that would be telling. You're a cool one, for sure. Rupert has run away, I think. You're not running, I see. I wonder why. You don't scare easily. You're quite a babe (runs hand along its arm)

bot: Rupert said I should wait. I am not usually scared, but I can be if Rupert wants to protect me. You should not touch me unless Rupert says so. I cannot upset him.

P: Loyal and beautiful .. but dumb, oh so dumb. (runs hand up bot's neck, where the duct tape is) And, I think, perhaps not human. Pity. (sighs) I like it when they run.

bot: Do you know where Rupert is?

(It turns, Pan is gone. The flute drifts faintly through the trees)

bot: Rupert said I should wait. I always do as Rupert says. Rupert will soon come back.


Giles: This may take a while

(the scoobies, booted and coated, face a large area of stripy tape, on the edge of the woods. The flickering of police car lights is visible through the trees.)


[> [> [> [> part 4 -- MsGiles, 02:29:42 12/17/03 Wed

Part 4

Xander: Direct is best!

(he picks up the tape to go underneath. Immediately a spotlight falls on him and a siren starts up)

X: (dropping it) Maybe we should try subtlety.

Spike: Sod this. (he picks up a rock and hurls it at the spotlight, which shatters)

X: Or then again .. (they all run into the wood, leaving shouts and sirens behind them)

W: So what do you think caused all those kids to panic? They all seemed to be describing something different. But it sounded scary. The police have taken it pretty seriously.

(they are walking in the wood)

X: I want to know what they were doing in the woods in the first place, at that time of night. Up to no good. (sees Dawn looking at him) Probably just picnicking.

W: In the middle of the night? (sees him looking at Dawn) Yes .. I guess that's it. Midnight feasts. Marshmallows.

Dawn: I reckon they were making out. (they look at her, she gets embarrassed) It's .. just a thing .. you know .. (trails off) What?

Giles: Well, we're through the cordon, but I don't know if this is the end of our problems.

W: What do you mean?

G: The place is crawling with police, now, and Spike's bit of helpfulness won't have helped. They'll assume the worst.

Anya: Particularly if they find a body and an open grave ..

Spike: (looking at Willow) And the bot, asking for Giles ..

W: It needed a person to focus on. Not you. So we tried Giles

S: (turning away) I wouldn't have it anyway.

Tara: (hastily) perhaps we could distract them?

G: Any idea how?

T: (thinking) They want a demon .. maybe we could make a demon

X: Great idea! We haven't got many problems at the moment. Lets conjure a demon and it can attack us, and everyone can have fun.

T: No .. I mean .. an illusion

G: Not a bad idea. (stops, polishes glasses) Do you think you and Tara could bring up a harmless but terrifying illusion, Willow?

W: Are toads warty? (checks herself) I mean, we could maybe try a small spell ..

G: Good. Carry on.

S: I'll just go ahead, then. (stomps off)

W: (worried) I'm not sure it's a good idea he sees the Buffybot on his own just now.

X: Why, do you think there might be some Spikey love left in its wires after all?

W: No, no, it's more .. he's upset.

X: How do you tell? By the antisocial behaviour and bad smell?

(Willow just looks at him)

X: I'll just go and check on the bot. Good luck with the ooglie booglies.

D: (running after) I'll go with you


(near the grave. Spike is lighting a cigarette. When we refocus beyond him, we see the bot, seated with its back to us, and beyond it the grave. A moment later, there's the loud noise of a helicopter flying low, and a spotlight shines across the clearing. The bot stands up, smiles and waves)

S: Oh-Oh (he puts out cigarette) As spotlight goes, he walks up to bot.

S: Better move

bot: I have to wait here. I am waiting for Rupert.

S: Well, that's very good. But it's not going to be too healthy here in a few ..

(numbers of police burst from the bushes. Shouts from loudhailer)

Hailer: raise your hands above your head and move into the light


(Xander and Dawn in the woods)

X: I recognise that tree, I'm sure I do.

D: That's because we passed it ten minutes ago

X: Head up this hill, then we can see where we are

D: I'm tired, and it's up. Can't we go down?

X: Just a bit further (he goes up the hill. Dawn, not wanting to be left alone, follows)

D: Wait, what's that?

X: That loud thumping noise? It's me having a heart attack.

D: No! Not that! Stop! I'm scared! It's dark!

X: What?

(he stops. In the distance, they hear the flute)


(In the clearing. A policeman grabs the bot)

bot: Please let go. I have to wait here.

Police: You're coming with me

bot: I'm sorry, but I can't do that.

P: We'll see! (grabs her)

(bot twists out of the grip, armlocks him and kicks him across the clearing. Other police go to grab her, she throws one into the next, trips another with a low spinning kick, kicks the gun out of the hands of a third. A couple of police grab Spike: he attempts to hit back and collapses in pain. A policeman punches the bot in the face, and it staggers, holding its neck)

bot: system failure imminent!

(the flute sound drifts through the trees. The police stop what they are doing and look around, in growing panic. So does Spike. As the music continues, the police break and run, wildly, into the woods. Spike also runs, arms over head, and falls into the grave)

bot: Rupert ..(it shuts down)

Pan: (in the shadows, softly) Such a pity.


(Spike starts climbing out of the grave as Xander, with Dawn behind, come through the trees)

X: Spike! What are you doing in there again? No, don't tell me!

(Spike just looks at him)

D: (catching up) What happened? We got lost. (looks at Xander) We didn't get lost, we just took a longer way round. Why are you in that hole?

(Spike finishes climbing out, goes to the bot and nudges it with his foot)

S: Don't make 'em like they used to.

X: Did you hear anything?

S: Same as before. Tune. Everyone ran, knocked me in there (gestures)

X: Ah. You weren't scared then? Didn't run?

S: So why were you two hiding in the woods for so long?

D: Giles!

(Giles, Willow, Tara, Anya arrive)

G: You're here, good.

D: Did you do the ooglie thing?

T: (glancing at Willow) they're all ooglie booglied

W: But not by us. At least not all. The police had a total panic, they were all running and crashed some of their vehicles.

T: (smiles) Then they found they were running from their own shadows.

W: That was clever of you (smiles) We think none of them want to admit they panicked so badly for no reason, so they decided to pretend nothing happened. They were telling people to go home when we left. So why were they all running in the first place? What scared them? What scared you guys?

X: Whatever it was, we're OK. We're still here.

(pause. They collect their thoughts)

S: (nonchalant) I'll be off, then

W: Why? Aren't you going to stay?

S: Got to go. Dawn.

D: (nervously) What about me?

(Spike gestures. The sky is indeed beginning to lighten) Be seeing you. (he looks towards the grave, then backs off into the woods)

G: Very well. We'd better do what we need to do.

(pull back and up, as we see the group around the grave starting to organise themselves and move the bot, lit by the sunrise. Birdsong fills the air - the dawn chorus)


(Willow and Tara, in the sunshine, on a bench in a park)

T: I don't remember much. Everything seemed busy, wild, but I couldn't understand. I'm so glad it's over, that you got me back. (anxious) I was in the mall yesterday, Willow, and I found myself looking at a pink frock. That was so weird. Do you think there's anything of her left in me? Can you feel it?

W: You seem the same to me (they smile)

T: Did she touch your mind, when you did the .. you know, when you did the .. thing?

W: I felt something go through me. She was strong, Tara, so strong .. but then it left, and I felt fine. Better than ever! As if she even gave me power! (Tara looks worried) And you were back. (happy)

T: But we lost Buffy.

W: No! No, not .. lost. We didn't lose her, she just .. moved on. She's out there somewhere (sighs). I feel as if she's still with us, watching us..

(Tara clasps her hand)

T: You did so well, you know. You're amazing.

W: It wasn't enough, Tara. When I brought her back from the coma, I thought ..

T: What?

W: I thought - this is horrible, Tara - I thought, she shouldn't have needed me. She was the Slayer, Tara. She had no right to run away. I know it was because of Dawn. But how could she run away from us like that? We were all her friends. She left us to die. It's so bad of me to think that.

T: You're not bad, Willow. You helped Buffy, you helped her all you could.

W: I needed to do better.


(Giles on the phone)

G: Hang on a moment, I'll see if I've got the number... Yes, that's it... I know, but I have a few things to finish first. No, not much. Willow Rosenberg - yes, temporarily, at least. I'm sure you will.

(Willow and bot)

bot: You are Willow. You are my friend, and I can chat with you and play scrabble quietly, and I can patrol for vampires with you.

(Dawn and Spike, walking near the house)

Dawn: She said, the hardest thing about life ..

S: .. is not getting another go. I wouldn't know, love, I'm not alive.

D: But you were! I'm glad you're dead, anyway. You can't die, like everyone else.

S: We're here. In you go.

(Dawn goes in)

S: Night, then.

(Xander and Anya, cuddled together)

A: Poor Buffy. All alone in the cold.


(Night in the woods. Buffy's gravestone is just visible in moonlight. The camera pulls back, and shows Spike, sitting on a log, watching. He is quite motionless and expressionless)


Angel and Spike - Lack of Balance -- Claudia, 09:37:20 12/16/03 Tue

While many of the show's fans are arguing over who deserves the Shanshu more - Angel or Spike - has anyone noticed something about Spike and Angel? Both souled vampires possess traits that seem to veer in an extreme manner.

Spike tends to look outward for some kind of definition and Angel tends looks inward too much. Spike tries too hard to connect to others and Angel has a tendency to be too much of a loner. Spike relies so much on his heart that he tends to be impulsive and impatient (his worse trait, in my opinion). And Angel relies too much on his head and his tendency to reflect on matters leaves him distant from any emotions or instincts he might feel.

Just as Buffy needed to stop depending upon the Scoobies to represent the Heart, Brains and Spirit traits of the First Slayer (I know I'm going to get a rap on the head for that remark) and utilize all those traits, herself; both Spike and Angel need to stop resorting to extreme ways to find self-awareness and learn to find some kind of balance within themselves.


[> How I see Spike and Angel -- Sheri--who abstained from the internet for a whole 8 hours!, 11:50:52 12/16/03 Tue

They're like two sides of a coin, yin and yang, a couple of salt and pepper shakers, Laurel and Hardy, and, um, other things that come in pairs. The extremes in one character helps to illuminate what is going on with the other character.

My hope is that we'll get to see more scenes like the one earlier this season (sorry, too lazy to look up the title), when Spike and Angel were sitting on the couch and talking. They might be complete opposites, but even in their opposition they converge when it comes to fears and hopes: Can I be redeemed or will my past always be there?

Angel's ongoing pessimism in regards to whether it will *ever be enough* is met by Spike's *why wasn't that enough*. I see them coming to the same conclusion from opposite ends of the spectrum. Angel lets Spike know that there might not be a big reward at the end--hopefully helping to focus Spike's motivation better. In turn, Spike's belief that redemption is not only possible, but deserved, can hopefully help Angel to regain his hope and confidence in himself.

I'm crossing my fingers that the arc for the season (I'm spoiler free, so please don't tell me if I'm right or wrong) will be about Spike and Angel converging together from their opposite ends and realizing that the journey to redemption is the big reward. That the drive to improve themselves has already made them "human", and that the Shanshu stuff is about the metaphor of what it means to be "human" and not about the physiology.

[> [> Re: How I see Spike and Angel -- Jaelvis, 14:31:54 12/16/03 Tue

I like your idea, Sheri, that the Shanshu is about what it means to be human rather than physiology. I think that may be what it means. If there is an "official" shanshu, I hope it goes to Spike who realizes that since he got his soul on his own he has already "shanshued" and that he gives it to Angel. Spike is a lot more free than Angel right now. There is nothing to stop Spike from living happily ever after. Sure, he would be a blood drinker for eternity but hey, even human life is far from perfect. For Angel, living happily ever after means that he loses his soul. It doesn't necessarily mean sex with someone he loves either. If Connor were to come back and have a great relationship with his father, then Angel's soul would be in jeopardy. His friends (and fans) joke about his broodiness but, what is the guy supposed to do? He can't allow himself to be happy EVER.

To me, the ultimate act of redemption for Spike would be to let Angel have the shanshu so he CAN have some happiness in his life. That would be a great gesture and a great sacrifice on Spike's part for Angel. That act may heal a lot of pain in their relationship. It would mean that Spike forgives Angel for making him a monster and stealing Dru. For Angel it would allow him to forgive himself for all the nasty things he's done to Spike and everyone else he's harmed.

[> [> [> Re: How I see Spike and Angel -- Claudia, 16:04:00 12/16/03 Tue

[To me, the ultimate act of redemption for Spike would be to let Angel have the shanshu so he CAN have some happiness in his life. That would be a great gesture and a great sacrifice on Spike's part for Angel.]

Why should he? Why should Spike do this? Why can't Angel do the same? And if I must be honest, does it really matter who gets to Shanshu? Does it really matter if Angel or Spike gets to Shanshu? Isn't it more important that both Angel and Spike achieve some kind self-fulfillment and sense of balance in their lives without worrying about the Shanshu prophecy?


[> [> [> [> I think that scenario could work equally well either way -- Sheri, 17:10:55 12/16/03 Tue

But my pet theory is still that the Shanshu prophecy is not as literal as they think it is. The whole Highlander-esque "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE" fight over the Goblet of Perpetual Torment (oh, common, Mountain Dew isn't *that* bad!) has led me to believe that they're looking for a prize that's already within themselves. They can *both* be "human" (i.e., reconnect with their own inner humanity).

But if Shanshu really is literal... how about this (just an idea for the exact opposite to the scenario that Jaelvis hoped for): Angel lets Spike have the Shanshu, this makes the powers that be feel all warm and fuzzy and decide to make the *both* human, they declare their love for eachother, move in together in an apartment next door to their wacky neighbors Willow and Kennedy. In my little fantasy, this will be the bases for Allison Hannegon's new show on NBC this coming fall.

[> [> [> [> [> Now that's a show I want to watch!! -- DorianQ, 17:26:11 12/16/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now that's a show I want to watch!! -- Jaelvis, 11:40:28 12/17/03 Wed

Do you think anyone could talk David Boreanaz and James Marsters into making a porn film together (it could even be soft-core) to satisfy us Spike and Angel shippers?

Hey, a girl can dream can't she?

[> [> [> [> [> my little theories -- Ann, 08:29:48 12/17/03 Wed

That is just what I think: "that they're looking for a prize that's already within themselves. They can *both* be "human" (i.e., reconnect with their own inner humanity)."

One of my theories about Buffy is that her heart/soul is the place of the final hellmouth battle. She will have to do battle there to end all evil. When this battle, this gift of death is finally accepted then she will be complete. I also think this holds true for Angel and Spike. They need to accept this gift of their own potential for themselves to find peace. These demons (within and without) are an outward manifestation of their inner turmoil. The Shanshu is a gift they can each give themselves.


else it means "sans shoe", without shoe, and when their "sole/soul" is bared completely, they will have peace.
Same difference! lol

[> [> [> [> [> [> interesting! under your 2nd theory... -- anom, 09:59:03 12/17/03 Wed

"else it means 'sans shoe', without shoe, and when their 'sole/soul' is bared completely, they will have peace.
Same difference! lol"

...when Spike wakes up crying "I'm drowning in footwear!" in Chosen, it means that despite the events in Get It Done, Lies My Parents Told Me, & Touched, he's still struggling to deal with having a sole--er, soul.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good catch! and spoilers s.5 -- Ann, 10:37:19 12/17/03 Wed

Has anyone ever done an analysis of footwear on Buffy or Angel? I think it might yield excellent metaphor!!

Considering that vampires cannot drown in water, then this exclamation of Spike's has meaning that you refer to. I think Spike feels the pain and struggle of his soul and what he has done, whereby Angel feels the remorse for what he has done. Spike's pain is fresh and new (hence the burning up in Chosen) where Angel has lived with his pain for some time (hence the depression). Spike's pain hasn't turned into remorse yet (and I think it is happening) and one example of this is that he still wears that coat. Note he was wrapping it tight around himself, and holding it with his arms, when Fred is analysing his ghostiness in last week's rerun. Not letting if fly around him with freedom and flair as usual, he still needs to protect himself from this new reality and his feelings about this reality.
He is on the good guys side but I think it will take him a while to truly feel it and practice it some more and finally believe it. Now that he is not a "ghost", it represents him taking concrete steps toward that end. He has to firm up his resolve to feel remorse much like his body had to get some substance.

What a great journey these two are on!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> wow, ann! you got a lot more out of that than i put into it! -- anom, 22:34:44 12/18/03 Thu

"Has anyone ever done an analysis of footwear on Buffy or Angel? I think it might yield excellent metaphor!!"

Actual footwear worn, or mentions of footwear in dialog? Some instances count as both, like Cordelia & Lilah's discussion of shoes in Billy. If anyone can figure how that's a metaphor, let us know!

Yeah, I noticed how Spike clutched the coat around him in Just Rewards, but I wasn't sure how to interpret it. Did he feel cold (doubtful, now that we know he supposedly couldn't feel anything)? Did he not like being scanned & analyzed? Was he afraid to find out what the results would be? Later he does let the coat swing, resuming his old swagger, but much of that is for show.

I like your comparison of Spike & Angel & your thoughts on Spike's literal & figurative substantiality.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you-sometimes these moods overtake me (spoilers Buffy s.7, Angel, s.5) -- Ann, 09:19:16 12/19/03 Fri

and my kids were not in the room.

I thinks all of those things you said were correct. He has never liked being analyzed. That is not his strength. Thats more Angel-like. Spike is a do-er. He sees a problem and tackles it. He wants Dru back. He finds a solution. He wants Buffy back, he goes on the attack. He wants to prove his soul to Buffy, he will die. But the coat represents a lot of things to him (as discussed in numerous threads), mostly strength I think, and he has always used it as part of the greater image as slayer-slayer. It has become part of him. His moods seem to eminate from that coat now. He starts re-wearing it when Buffy tells him she needs his strengths as a vampire despite his soul for the coming war in season 7.

He has never been one for technology (Initiative issues maybe) - he is the poet. Fred is a new woman in his life and he doesn't trust many. It takes a while. I think he was fearful of her in part because she is the "scientist" and names herself to him as such. He probably doesn't want yet another woman analyzing him.

I don't think he will ever feel cold again as he tells Angel (I think it was) his memories of being burned up. Eye balls popping ect. This is the warmth of his soul around him. Cleansing flames. I think his burning up in Chosen is so important. It was a new beginning for him. And more to be revealed. Yippie.

And I think it is great that he kept his "wacki" (I don't know what one word to use) personality even with gaining a soul, burning up and then coming back and then gaining substance. Perhaps a lesson for Angel in his angst.

Thanks again.

[> [> [> [> [> Loving the analysis -- Vickie, 11:36:06 12/17/03 Wed

But I doubt any of these will come to pass. This
being Mutant Enemy, and Joss Whedon's mantra being
"torture your characters", I'm thinking one of them
will have to die horribly, possibly sacrifice himself
to save the world/the other.

And the other one finally connects to his misplaced

and maybe takes off his footwear.

A Question of Faith and Xander -- DorianQ, 18:18:10 12/16/03 Tue

I was just wondering if Faith and Xander ever had a conversation together after she broke oput of jail. They were leading a combat team together in Dirrty Girls, but as I remember it, the last time they had a major interaction, Faith was trying to rape and smother him (Consequences I think) and that doesn't seem to be something that Xander would forget, especially since that was only his second time "with" someone, Faith was his first, and soon after that, she switched teams.

I really hope that wasn't something that the writers glossed over or forgot, especially since Faith was given a whole scene to flirt with Spike in the basement, apparently just for pure titillation value. That just seems wrong, considering Xander was having almost zero screen time as it was, even before all the Potentials showed up.


[> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- angel_luver, 20:46:59 12/16/03 Tue

They need either Faith and Spike together...or Faith and Xander...i wish Faith was on Angel or had her own spin off...but i still love her new show Tru Calling:)

i only have seasons 1-5 on dvd of buffy but when i get the rest of them...or see more re-runs i will be sure to let you know:)

[> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- phoenix, 09:44:45 12/17/03 Wed

I don't remember any real Faith, Xander interaction after she came back, and I agree it is a shame and something of a missed opportuntity. I have to give the writers the benefit of the doubt as they clearly had a hell of a lot of stories to tie up in a very short space of time, but I would have liked to see them address what she did to him too. In fact if I was writing a list of my top ten most disturbing Buffy scenes, Faith's attempted rape/murder of Xander would right up there along with Willow flaying Warren, only I actually find it more disturbing as it felt more real.

Ah, we'll just have to keep hoping for that spin-off (-:

[> [> they did touch on it -- Seven, 12:01:21 12/17/03 Wed

If you remember, at one point, Faith is talking to the potentials about Anya and she says something like

"Every time she does that (goes off on a rant about Xander) I just remind her that I had him first."

So they didn't forget about it, but I do agree that some kooky awkwardness between them would have been fun, but not needed in terms of things season 7 needed to address.

Hmm. Just had a random thought here. Us fans seem to have a concensus that BTVS "jumped the shark" at season 6. That is, they seem to be the least favorite seasons with the exception of a handful of episodes from each. Most posters seem to love season 5 and see it as a worthy ending to the show. So my question is, should Angel call it quits after this season? So far, I love this season. Out of 8 eps, only LOTP and Unleashed are (sort of) disapointments, so that's still a 6:2 ratio. If the season pans out that way, we are looking at 16 great eps and 6 (arguably) bad ones. Not a bad season. A potential season 6 could be up in the air though. So what are everyone elses thoughts? Should ME roll the dice and go on (satiating us fanatics) or should they quit while they are ahead and preserve the integrity of the show?

I know I have generalized a lot in this post and I know not everyone feels the same way about seasons 6 and 7 but I just thought that I might address the situation.

So what do you all think?

[> [> [> Facetiousness -- Dlgood, 14:59:40 12/17/03 Wed

They touched on it, as much as they referred to Faith having slept with Xander, but no exploration of the significance of that event.

Wich, is in large part applicable to Faith/Willow and Faith/Spike as well. The parallel between Faith in S3 and Willow in S6, and their efforts to reform themselves: ignored. The parallel between Faith's relationship with Buffy in S3 and Spike's with Buffy in S6, and their efforts to redeem themselves in their own eyes and Buffy's - also ignored.

They did deal a bit with the significance of Buffy and Faith's relationship - but not so much about how Buffy had behaved like Faith once had, or how Faith was trying to be a better slayer as Buffy of S3 was. Some of that significance was also ignored.

[> [> [> Re: they did touch on it -- heywhyont, 08:30:51 12/18/03 Thu

As someone who was doing through depression at the sametime as season 6 was airing, I thought season 6 was great. It captured well what depression is like. I really enjoyed season 7 as well and loved how the series ended. By that is just my humble opinion. Personally, I think Angel has another season or two left or more. There is just so much to delve into.

[> [> [> I am not among that concensus -- ZachsMind, 07:53:57 12/19/03 Fri

Seven said, "Hmm. Just had a random thought here. Us fans seem to have a concensus that BTVS "jumped the shark" at season 6."

Just for the record, I do not believe in the consensus that Buffy jumped the shark at season six. Buffy the Vampire Slayer jumped the shark with the movie. BtVS redefined what it means to jump the shark. I tire of this assumption: season six was no indicator of weakness, any more than Vader's admission to Luke at the end of Empire Strikes Back was an indication of weakness on the part of the Star Wars storyline. A tragic hero must at some point hit absolute rock bottom. That's what season six was all about. Season six was Buffy's Empire Strikes Back.

I equate it with my favorite juggling team, The Flaming Idiots. Gyro, Pyro and Walter. Three men who took the worst fear of any jugglier, that of dropping pins before a live audience, they confronted it, embraced it, and made it their trademark.

BtVS took jumping the shark, confronted it, embraced it, and made it their trademark.

Buffy jumped the shark on day one, and dared the audience to find it relevant. We're talking about a show where a high school cheerleader, through no effort of her own, overnight suddenly becomes "chosen" to defeat the forces of evil. We're talking about a show that has terrible things happening in this California town not only every week, but historically since the early 1930s, and no one raised an eyebrow of concern, except those of course running and screaming and being drained of blood.

We're talking about a show whose very premise was absurd, and yet from that premise - that foundation - weaved some of the most heart-wrenching, heart-pounding, sincerely heartfelt and loving tales ever broadcast on network television. Compare the premise of Buffy to those of Gilligan's Island, Bewitched, The Brady Bunch, and My Mother The Car. Surely Buffy the Vampire Slayer is on the surface just as insane and madcap as any situation comedy, and yet the series creator and his crew of creative minds refused to be limited by what had gone on before, or what the audience wanted their efforts to be. They created believable characters, ordinary people and put them under extraordinary circumstances. Then they let the characters tell the story.

Jump the shark? You say that like it's a bad thing. It was one of BtVS's strengths! It jumped the shark when it jumped the gate! All hail the shark! The shark is dead long live the shark!

By season six, the series was just hitting its stride. The only thing that could stop it was a lack of interest by its principal performer. Had Sarah Michelle Gellar not sounded the death knell, the show would still be going as strong as it always had. Critics be damned.

[> [> [> [> interesting and great take on the show, but... -- Seven, 08:32:01 12/19/03 Fri

I love your view of the show and how "Jumping the shark" has been Buffy's trademark, but even a show with that premise can fall off. I enjoy season 6 and seven. They have many great moments from some of my favorite characters who weren't around in earlier seasons. (Anya, Spike, Jonothan).


The show is still better than most of the other shows out there. What I wanted to know was were the last two seasons necassery for the core characters?

Lets see...

Buffy could have been done

Xander too

Willow and Tara? Maybe could have been flushed out.

Dawn? Yeah.

Giles? Would have been a great lead in to "Ripper"

Spike? No. He had more to do. But he could have done it on Angel.

I think the main themes of these two seasons were great as well, and that the characters were able to go through them in an entertaining way


would the series have been better if it was only the 5 seasons? I'm not sure

I like "Chosen" better than "The Gift" (OK, everyone can rip on me as much as you like) I could have done w/o DMP, AYW, and KIM and those are just off the top of my head.

So i suppose I'm conflicted. I just don't want Angel to go out on a sour note. This season seems to be so good and I hope if there are more seasons that they are just as good. I suppose all I can do is Hope.


[> [> [> [> [> Chosen is better than The Gift like cookies are better than fudge. -- ZachsMind, 11:17:09 12/19/03 Fri

Joseph Campbell would tell you that a true mythic hero must suffer through death and resurrection. All the great mythic heroes do in one form or another. Buffy died in season five. She comes back in six and learns how to live again through seasons six and seven.

Could it have been done better? Arguably, that's a big perhaps. Should the last two seasons never have been done at all? Bite your tongue. =)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chosen is better than The Gift like cookies are better than fudge. -- Dlg, 08:22:57 12/20/03 Sat

Joseph Campbell would tell you that a true mythic hero must suffer through death and resurrection. All the great mythic heroes do in one form or another. Buffy died in season five.

Yeah. She also died in S1.

[> [> [> [> What exactly is your definition of 'Jump the Shark'? -- Finn Mac Cool, 07:19:50 12/22/03 Mon

I thought the definition of a "Jump the Shark" moment was when a TV show begins descending deeper and deeper into mediocraty from which it can (almost) never recover. How then, if you didn't stop liking the show, can you say it Jumped the Shark?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: What exactly is your definition of 'Jump the Shark'? -- LittleBit, 10:05:15 12/22/03 Mon

I can't resist this link to the 'official' (and original) Jump the Shark website and the page on BtVS. It covers the categories or events that are usually believed to be the defining moment(s) for jumping the shark. Word of advice though...reading the comments can be bad for your health. ;-)

According to the site Jumping the Shark is "a moment. A defining moment when you know that your favorite television program has reached its peak. That instant that you know from now's all downhill. Some call it the climax. We call it "Jumping the Shark." From that moment on, the program will simply never be the same."

[> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- faith, 15:53:23 12/17/03 Wed

faith wasnt raping him...she was simply showin him that she can do watever she wants to him, and that he would let her cuz he wanted her to(who tha hell wouldnt lol). i love faith...too bad she wasnt a regular in all seasons

[> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- DorianQ, 22:43:16 12/17/03 Wed

I would have to disagree. Saying that the victim wanted her to do it sounds a lot like a copout to me. If Xander wanted Faith to do it, I don't think Angel would have broke in and knocked her out before she had a chance to do it. If the roles were reversed and Xander was the superpowered being trying to smother Faith, I know for a fact that the argument "She really wanted me to do it" would not fly for a single second. Wow, that came off sounding mean; however, I do think it is the truth.

[> [> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:37:45 12/18/03 Thu

Well, is it technically possible for a woman to rape a man? After all, you could argue that, since men need to be aroused before a woman can have sex with them, it's impossible for a woman to have sex with a man who doesn't want to have sex.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- DorianQ, 19:22:18 12/18/03 Thu

Actually, I have heard from a few people that if you strangle a man that he will automatically get an erection, since getting one is all about cutting off circulation to that area so it can become engorged with blood. Stop blood flow anywhere in the body near an artery (like in the neck) and a man is likely to get an erection.

They can also get one for just being excited normally or sitting funny and discussing this topic just got really creepy for me so I'll just end it by saying just because someone wants something does mean they really want it to come to pass. I want to kill my parents sometimes. That doesn't mean I want to see them dead and if they die I will be very depressed. It's like what happened in BBaB when Buffy tried to seduce Xander; he wanted her too (very badly) but not like that and he stopped her.

I really hope that made some sense.

[> [> [> [> [> [> a physical/physiological reaction may not have anything to do w/what someone 'wants' -- anom, 23:14:02 12/18/03 Thu

I'm trying to think of another example...well, if you're hungry, even the smell of a food you don't like may make you salivate. Our bodies can have reactions that have little to do w/what we want--this conflict is clear in Buffy's reactions to Spike at the beginning of Gone.

As for strangulation causing erections, somehow in all my years of medical editing I never saw that mentioned. But I doubt it. For one thing, strangulation cuts off air flow, not blood flow. (Then again, I hear some people are into "erotic asphyxiation"...OK, my turn to be creeped out!) For another thing, an erection happens through dilation of arteries to increase blood flow, not by cutting off circulation. The veins constrict to keep the blood from flowing back toward the heart, but that's more of an, um, local effect. So blocking an artery, anywhere in the body, doesn't seem likely to cause an erection.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: a physical/physiological reaction may not have anything to do w/what someone 'wants' -- phoenix, 02:05:08 12/21/03 Sun

I have also heard that strangulation can cause erections. There are quite a few cases of death every year caused be men practicing auto erotic asphyxiation and getting it wrong--actually strangling themselves rather than just getting the turn on...and now I'm creeped out too.

Anyway, that was actually part of my reasoning behind my viewing of that scene as I'm betting Faith would have known about that effect. If you take into account intent, as well as whether something is physically possible, that definitely looked like attempted rape to me. Okay, my mind just went to a really disturbing place that I'm not even going to inflict on the board.

Another thing which occured to me is to mentally reverse the genders and see how the scene plays, it can often be an interesting experiment, and demonstrates how many preconcieved notions we, or at least I, really do have simply based on gender. If Xander was a woman(without Slayer strength) and Faith was a guy what impact would the scene have?

[> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith and Xander -- phoenix, 09:32:00 12/18/03 Thu

That's really not what that scene looked like to me, and okay I could be wrong, but the girl had really lost it by that time and IMO if Angel had not made a timely entrance there could well have been one dead Xander to add to Faith's body count. It certainly didn't look like she was playing, and Xander didn't think she was either judging by his reaction.

OT: How BtVS takes over your life -- leslie, 08:45:38 12/16/03 Tue

I am apartment-hunting, and today I am going to see an apartment--which to be honest, sounds like my dream home--on Angelus Place. I just keep wondering, "If I move there, will I turn evil?" Stay tuned...


[> A soul is a small price to pay for a good apartment -- Pony, 09:07:44 12/16/03 Tue

[> is it rent-controlled? @>) -- anom, 10:10:23 12/16/03 Tue

'Cause that can be an overriding consideration--just ask Cordelia!

Maybe living there will give you deeper insights into Angelus' character that you can tell us all about. If it doesn't turn you evil.

In any case, good luck in your apt. hunt!

[> Be sure to ask the manager -- Cactus Watcher, 10:16:51 12/16/03 Tue

if it comes with Phantom Dennis included in the rent.

[> [> Re: Be sure to ask the manager -- skeeve, 11:08:57 12/16/03 Tue

Dennis is probably rather lonely about now.

[> Helpful household hints from Hell -- Vyrus, 14:09:29 12/16/03 Tue

I just keep wondering, "If I move there, will I turn evil?"

Only if you experience any true happiness while inside the house. I suggest painting the walls cinder-block gray, putting burlap sheets on the beds, and playing country music on the stereo at all times.

[> [> Re: Helpful household hints from Hell -- leslie, 15:53:51 12/16/03 Tue

Sadly, it was the apartment that was evil. Tiny, tiny evil. Fear Demon evil. There's a reason Cordy could only find a spacious apartment in LA if it was haunted. Some parts of LA (like the nice parts of Venice), even a ghost wouldn't get you a break--the landlord would just be thrilled at the turnover so he could jack up the rent with each new vacancy!

Argh! This wouldn't be such an issue if I didn't own all those damned books! Literally a ton, movers assure me. Curses upon literacy! It's an addiction--worse than magic! (Though hey, all those spell books, yes, they add up in the tonnage.)

[> [> [> Re: Books -- Brian, 03:50:44 12/17/03 Wed

I feel your pain. When I moved to Kentucky, I discovered that I had over a ton of books as well. And they are very expensive to move. But what can one do? If I don't have a large stack to read, I become desperate, and must buy more.

[> [> [> Re: Helpful household hints from Hell -- Gyrus, 07:23:24 12/17/03 Wed

>Some parts of LA (like the nice parts of Venice), even a >ghost wouldn't get you a break--the landlord would just be >thrilled at the turnover so he could jack up the rent with >each new vacancy!

Yeah, my brother lived in Venice for a long time, and I think he paid a pretty penny for the rent.

>(Though hey, all those spell books, yes, they add up in >the tonnage.)

Yeah, the D&D rules about encumbrance have always been tricky. Why, my 3rd-level rogue/mage- Oops, was I still typing?

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen on DVD! -- angel_luver, 20:48:16 12/16/03 Tue

Hey good news! League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is out on DVD Now! You can Order this awesome DVD at Here's what the movie is all about...

Sean Connery stars as Allan Quatermain, the world's greatest adventurer, who leads a legion of superheroes the likes of which the world has never seen, in THE LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN.
Quatermain's extraordinary League is comprised of Captain Nemo (Naseeruddin Shah), Dracula vampiress Mina Harker (Peta Wilson), an invisible man Rodney Skinner (Tony Curran), American secret service agent Sawyer (Shane West), Dorian Gray (Stuart Townsend), and Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde (Jason Flemyng). Richard Roxburgh (Moulin Rouge!) plays the League's enigmatic recruiter, M.
The League members are staunch individualists, outcasts in fact, with checkered pasts and singular gifts that have been both blessing and curse. Now they must learn to trust each other and work as a team for the very hope of civilization. With little preparation and no time to lose, they will be transported via Captain Nemo's extraordinary submarine, the Nautilus, to the frontline of defense: Venice, Italy. There a masked madman known as the Fantom plans to sabotage a conference of world leaders by setting off a domino chain of explosions, sinking the entire city.
The threat is catastrophic; the risks are staggering. THE LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN has 96 hours to save the world...

If you guys want to have a chance to win L.X.G. on DVD go to these sites...

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask:)


[> My question: Why did the movie suck so badly? -- Pony, 08:49:13 12/17/03 Wed

The only thing I would do with that DVD is hit myself about the head. A better question: when does the second graphic novel of League come out in softcover?

[> [> It sank so rapidly I never got to see it -- MsGiles, 09:00:49 12/17/03 Wed

I haven't picked up anything specific, but the badness somehow flows off everything surrounding it. Even the normally sound Connery seems tainted. Has anyone seen it , who is still able to talk about the experience? Was it worse than, say, Judge Dredd? Tank Girl? Species 2?

[> [> Didn't Mind -- Claudia, 10:19:33 12/17/03 Wed

I'd rather liked "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen". However, I hate the movie's design production. Most of the story seemed to be set at night or in the middle of overblown-looking sets. I liked the story, though.

[> [> [> My problem with the movie -- Pony, 10:44:04 12/17/03 Wed

Well, I have many many problems with the movie, but for me it was all summed up with one thing:

Early on in the movie Allan Quatermain is compared to an old tiger.

Later on in the movie Quatermain encounters a tiger. He looks at the tiger, the tiger looks at him. They look some more. Just as the audience is about to scream "we get it, we get it, it's the comparison from before," the tiger finally leaves.

Then another character comes out and says to Quatermain, you're just like that old tiger.

That and I almost fell asleep during the action scenes.

Read the book, it's fab, and actually had fun with the concept something the movie certainly does not.

[> [> [> [> Nail on head -- fresne, 11:00:36 12/17/03 Wed

I have a fairly low threshold for - look action movie go boom, but um...yeah, tiger.

You'd think with the cast and the available plots, that well, ah well. At least Dorian/Lestat was pretty.

[> [> [> There was a lot to laugh at... -- Sofdog, 16:26:58 12/17/03 Wed

It was breezy good fun. The hilarious way Mina Harker vamped out and then pulled herself together while the guys were watching. The way her hair and makeup kept changing during the last fight. Straight, curly, up, down. To say nothing of spending the night in a cave and coming out with fresh curls.

Loved the action. Car chase, martial arts (Middle Eastern, not Asian). It was all quite fun for me.

Picked up the book, but find the rape scenes very, very... offputting. They're scripted with a very British humor. And it just ain't a funny subject.

[> [> It's out in hardcover? (Please, please, please) -- KdS, 14:23:19 12/17/03 Wed

[> [> [> Yes! I saw it at Borders yesterday. I was very pleasantly surprised... -- Rob, 21:16:49 12/17/03 Wed

...but unfortunately didn't buy it because I only had enough money put aside to spend on gifts for other people.


[> [> [> [> well, rob... -- anom, 22:07:35 12/17/03 Wed

...there are still 7 hinting days left....

[> [> [> Got it! My review of LOEG2 (heavy spoilers) -- KdS, 13:43:03 12/22/03 Mon

I found myself liking it far more on subsequent reflection and second reading than on first reading, and it's because it's a very different work in intent and style than the first volume.

Alan Moore has recently announced that he is, once again, retiring from fiction, and I think League 2 makes a lot of sense in that light. While the first League was pretty much a romp with some dark satirical subtext, League 2 is a much grimmer work, with a lot of subject matter (and some events) in common with Watchmen. The guest appearances from famous fictional characters are kept to a minimum, in favour of a very direct implantation of the League characters into a very straight adaptation of Well's War of the Worlds, although with Well's ending revealed as a potential official "spin" of a depressingly plausible alternative. The single chapter which does employ the mass parody that appeared in the first book also hightens the darkness of the story, as the deliberate perversion of children's book characters, while still humourous, is the blackest and most disturbing form of parody. The Martian invasion in League 2 (and I think we have to bring in the mystical symbolism of Mars as stern judgement discussed in Promethea here) is used as an allegory for the mechanised wars of the 20th century, and the way in which they called all the assumptions of earlier traditions of war stories and tales of individual heroism into question. An early thought after finishing the book was that I was disappointed in the way that Mina had been reduced from the confident leader of the first book to at best an observer and at worst a victim, but it was only concern with gender politics that stopped me noticing initially that the male League members had been reduced to the same condition. Even the larger-than-life Extraordinary Gentlemen are lost in the fog of a total war in which no one person really matters, or seems able to make a true difference. Watchmen was intended, according to Moore's later remarks, to show how badly the ideals and metaphors underlying the superhero fail in the real world. However, much to Moore's initial concern, and later disgust, it was widely interpreted as a blueprint for the incorporation of "realism" into superhero stories, producing a great deal of material that ranged from the morbid to the near-fascist. League 2 makes it sufficiently obvious, in mood as much of explicit philosophy, that this was an invalid response. The two very controversial episodes of sexual violence in the story may be criticised as gratuitously nasty, but they cannot be seen as showing the flippancy with respect to sexual assault that made the Griffin scenes in the first book so controversial. Rather they help to ensure that the true nature of the characters responsible for them can no longer be indulgently treated as mere black comedy.

I viewed the hints of attraction between Mina and Allan in the first League with some distaste, hoping that they would remain hints and be merely a satirical reference to the ageing-hero/cute-young-thing dynamic of the Hollywood action movie (especially relevant given the casting of Sean Connery as Allan in the film). However, when the consummation is indeed portrayed in this volume, it is handled far more effectively than I could have hoped, making clear that this is not a case of the ageing hero being rewarded in a wish-fulfillment way, but a relationship between two people whose shared damage and physical and mental scars outweigh the apparent divide of physical age.

But from the character point of view, this is Edward Hyde's book. It seems so natural that in this new darker world Hyde should totally absorb Jekyll, and in so doing gain the articulacy and self-reflective capacity that transforms him from a mere allegory of the unleashed Id to a far more layered and frightening character. The contrast of him with Griffin, of course, shows that the crimes of an unleashed mystical Id, however horrible, are of a qualitatively different nature to those of the human intellect devoid of conscience and morality. Hyde's nature as a mere divided part of an irrevocably splintered whole allows him to recognise his monstrosity without feeling any possibility of redemption, and the balance of our knowledge of his feelings and actions makes us able to feel emotional sympathy for him without ever condoning his actions. Those actions, which taken in bare description might be those of a hero, are irrevocably darkened by the manner of their practice. One rarely sees as perfect a fusion of dialogue and visual image to create an intellectual and emotional impression as Hyde's soliloquy at the dinner table, ending with the hideous anti-baptism as the dying Griffin's no-longer invisible blood floods out from Hyde's pristine shirt-front across the whole room, finally tainting Nemo and Samson, who of course have their own histories of unrepentant brutality. And the growing understanding between Mina and Edward, the way she comes to care for him without ever forgetting what he is, what he has done, and what he could do to her, culminating with that incredibly perverse, yet delicate and heartbreaking farewell is simply superb. I apologise for flogging a dead BtVS horse, but this is what S7 Buffy/Spike, and the climax of Chosen, should have been like if ME had given Seeing Red its full weight.

While in the first League book the prose section added some darkness and foreboding to the comedy of the graphic section, the prose section here acts as a remarkable lightener. Largely it is a travelogue of the League world that out-Wold-Newtons-Philip Jose Farmer, and includes some truly hilarious juxtapositions of mythologies, but the interspersed narrative sections about Allan, Nemo and Mina clear up some ambiguities, provide outlines for some of the earlier forshadowed storylines that presumably will be cut off by Moore's retirement, and finally give us some hope that some, at least, of the characters will find some measure of happiness and peace.

Overall then, an excellent piece of Moore, but don't expect something too similar to League 1 or you'll be disappointed and a little shocked.

[> [> Great source material......which they then completely ignored -- DorianQ, 23:20:05 12/17/03 Wed

The book was not a typical action comic book; it was far more literary and "British"(which I like). The main problem was probably their approach. A much better movie would have been to try and emulate the style of, say "Lawrence of Arabia" or "Titanic" than "Spiderman" or "Die Another Day". All four are good movies (well, except for DAD; don't ask me why but Halle does nothing for me and the ending was so amazingly over the top that it tainted all the good stuff that came before. But I digress) but they are all different. Some stories will work with pretty much any approach, but this one doesn't, and that's not a bad thing.

Some specific things that were not right: Sean Connery, I don't know why they needed to get an action star for this but the only time I can remember him acting well was in the Untouchables; Quartermain was made into the leader instead of Mina, which meant that her vampirism had to be revealed right away, getting rid of one of the better surpises from the book, and that Allan couldn't have had an opium addiction like he did in the book, because leaders can't ever have personal flaws or failings (he says with a straight face) both which robbed the two characters of multidimensionality that the writers did nothing to replace with: and the script itself, which had zero subtlety and often beat us over the head with the little symbolism they had (the old tiger got old real fast).

Which isn't to say it was that bad of a movie compared to a lot of teh other crap out there right now. I may even by it if I have twenty bucks that I have nothing better to spend on.

You know what they should have done? Whoever directed this should have directed Hulk and Ang Lee should have directed this. Lee style would go much better with this movie thatn it did with the Hulk and vice versa.

By the way, I don't think they should have done a strict book to movie transfer. You always should adjust stories to the medium that they are being told in. In in the case of TLOEG, they threw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

[> From Pony's comments I have to ask, what's second prize? Two copies? -- CW, 09:21:06 12/17/03 Wed

[> [> Re: LoEG -- Brian, 05:36:29 12/18/03 Thu

I enjoyed the comic book and the movie. The movie took many liberties with the book, but it still was quite enjoyable. I even liked having Tom Sawyer and Dorian Grey as additional characters in the movie. The stuff that was so over the top I just accepted as "movie reality." Petra Wilson did a wonderful acting job as Mrs Harker. She was the best actor in the movie.

[> [> [> I agree -- Rufus, 18:03:11 12/18/03 Thu

I loved the commentary as well. The movie won't make the comic book canon types happy but I ignored that and enjoyed the movie for what it was.

[> So will Hellboy be any good? Is it worth hoping? -- MsGiles, 07:46:31 12/18/03 Thu

It's still Connected....Lovecraft, Angel, and Marvel...spoilers to Destiny -- Rufus, 00:02:52 12/17/03 Wed

We are getting what appears to be stand alone episodes this year. Thing with stand alone episodes is that they have information in them that informs the season as a whole. For those new to Angel it's a nice way to see the character, for us, it's a way of looking below the surface to get an idea of what is going on.

Last year I plucked out of the archive of The Stakehouse, a post of WtP that interested me. I'm not much of a comics person but the parallels between Lovecraft, Marvel, and Angel/Buffy have always been there starting from the beginning of Buffy and the talk of "the Old Ones return."

I go back to that Sep/02 post to revisit the hierarchy of the Powers that Be and their connection to Wolfram and Hart.


The Stakehouse

From: "WilliamThePoet"
Posted at The Stakehouse:
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:20 pm
Subject: Older than the Old Ones . . .

orual wrote:

Actually, we know that something older than the Old Ones is coming back. I am not enough of a Lovecraftian to know if that makes a difference.

Well . . . to go away from Lovecraft purely and go back to the wonderful
world of comics for a moment . . .

. . . the Old Ones and the Elder Gods show up in the Marvel universe as well. The idea there is that prior to the rise of humanity, earth was kind of a hellish place ruled by creatures we might call . . . demons. The Elder
were the oldest of them, existing since the beginning of the universe, so they're billions of years old. The Old Ones are later on the scene, but
they're the ones that usually get noticed more since the Elder Gods were swept from the scene a long time ago . . . actually, they were removed by a very powerful, godlike creature to allow humanity a chance to arise.

The only ONE of the Elder Gods allowed to remain on earth in the Marvel universe was, interestingly enough, Gaea. A few of them, like Set and Chthon, escaped through dimensional portals to . . . somewhere else.

The Old Ones, on the other hand, were very powerful demons who ruled the earth before humanity arose but were johnny-come-latelies in terms of the EGs. That's where Chthulu and some of the others come in -- really powerful
and a lot harder to handle than the run of the mill vamp or demon would be, but not in the same class as the Elder Gods at all.

Oh, and the Elder Gods could sometimes be referred to as the Dark Gods in Marvel.

In Buffyspeak, you might refer to them asHell Gods. . .

Many interesting possibilities . . . although whether or not they have anything to do with what's coming up . . . *veg*


. . . reminding you that the most important question in the Buffyverse is often "Which is better, Marvel or DC?" and the most important statement for the viewer is "things are more connected than they might appear to be."


Both BTVS and Marvel use Lovecraftian themes but BTVS borrows a bit more from Marvel than Lovecraft. When Buffy first aired we got a short lesson on the history of the world by Giles. From Season one ep. 1.2: The Harvest

Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures...

The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the Old Ones to return.


This is very much a Lovecraft influenced history where the Old Ones are pushed out of this reality by a force stronger than themselves. But they have eternally tried to find their way back or at the very least find a way to have an influence in Earth's reality. There are a few ways to do is the creation of a demon hybrid like the vampire, who is supposed to be waiting for the return of the Old Ones...who would have guessed they'd find MTV and other creature comforts distracting them from their reason for being, but what does one expect when you make a demon starting with a human?

The second way that the Old Ones or Hell Gods (in the Buffyverse, Hellgods) can break through to this reality would be to use a human as a vessel (think Cordy on ATS and Ben on BTVS). The point is that the Earth is something that the Old Ones and the Hell Gods may want but can't have because something is preventing them from getting back to the earth dimension.

I found a site where there is a comparrison between the Gods in Marvel and Lovecraft.......


A frequent source of confusion/contention, even amongst the writers for the Appendix:
The Elder Gods of the Marvel Universe refers specifically to those being present during the formation of Earth (and are thus billions of years old), who apparently originated from Earth as well. These include Chthon, Gaea, and Set, among a few others. Most of these being degenerated into demons, and are considered Class One demons.
The vast majority of these Elder Gods/Demons were slain by Demogorge, the offspring of Gaea and the Demiurge, a powerful god-like force, which sought to cleanse the Earth to allow humanity to develop. Gaea alone was allowed to remain on Earth, while a few, such as Chthon and Set, managed to escape extra-dimensionally.
The Old Ones: Lovecraft's stories have a separate group of elder Gods, who represent pre-human demons that ruled the Earth in the distant past. Shuma-Gorath, Chthulu, etc. are in this class. Lovecraft's work has served as a basis for many storylines and characters in the work of REH and in the Marvel Universe as well. The term "Elder Gods" is often used to describe them in the Hyborian Era stories, and even in modern era stories. However, again, these are NOT the same classification of characters as the true Elder Gods. Lovecraft's history is NOT the same as the Marvel Universe's. In the MU, these beings are considered Class III demons, and are thought to have extra-dimensional origin. They may well be older than Earth, making them older than the true Elder Gods. However, some specific nomenclature is necessary to avoid confusion.


Let's go back to Lindsey.....he is covered with symbols...the apartment or house Eve lives in is covered in the same symbols. So, who they hiding from and why? If they are hiding what does that make them, good or bad guys? We have a season where the line between human and machine is blurred and so is the line between the good and bad guys. Some of them have a conviction that seems to be lagging in Angel these days. So, what do the Marvel, The Powers that Be, and Wolfram and Hart that be have in common? With all the talk about Power where is Angel's place in the end result if he is only a puppet?


[> Pulling strings...spoilers to Destiny -- Pony, 08:15:20 12/17/03 Wed

I'm not sure if we'll ever get an answer to who the PTB really are or how involved they are in the actual workings of the Buffyverse. I find it interesting how many episodes this year have focussed on will or rather Angel's lack of. All the manipulations no longer seem designed to push him to make a choice for evil but rather to get him to a place where he has no choice. In a world where destiny seems to be driving force why worry about free will?

'The Gift' [Spoilers for S5] -- The Sorcerer, 05:02:41 12/17/03 Wed

Why was Buffy able to close the portal and die?

Yes, I understand the bit about her blood being the same as Dawn's and such, but what I don't understand is how she could jump into the portal, electrocute herself, and die of mystical energies?

Shouldn't she have gone through to another dimension like that dragon which came through to our dimension? The question begs the solution, then, that perhaps it's a one-way portal, but then how did Glory anticipate getting through?

If it's a portaly, how did it kill her instead of simply allowing her to pass through?


[> Re: Like becoming -- Brian, 06:05:47 12/17/03 Wed

I assume it's the dynamics of specific blood. In Becoming, Angel's blood opened the portal, and it also closed it. Dawn's blood opened the portal, and Buffy's specific blood closed it.

[> [> Re: Like becoming -- The Sorcerer, 06:11:22 12/17/03 Wed

>>>I assume it's the dynamics of specific blood. In Becoming, Angel's blood opened the portal, and it also closed it. Dawn's blood opened the portal, and Buffy's specific blood closed it.<<<

Too true, however, if you recall, Angel was sucked into the portal as a result of the portal's transdimensional nature, but Buffy simply floated in the portal until it closed and she laid dead on Earth.

[> [> [> Re: Like becoming -- LittleBit, 09:03:18 12/17/03 Wed

Perhaps that was due to the differing natures of the two portals. In "Becoming" Acathla opened a portal to a specific hell dimension and Angel, when closing it, was pulled into it. In "The Gift" the Key didn't 'open a portal' so much as cause all the barriers between all the dimensions to be dissolved. My thought is that Buffy remained in the opening rift until the 'dimensional walls' were rebuilt and then returned here because there was no 'destination' as there had been in "Becoming". Anyway, that works for me. ;-)

[> [> [> [> Maybe humans are blocked from demon dimensions -- Ray, 12:17:14 12/17/03 Wed

Maybe that's why it killed her instead of just transporting her. Angel was probably sucked in because of his demon nature.

[> Re: 'The Gift' [Spoilers for S5] -- Sofdog, 16:19:59 12/17/03 Wed

It serves the story. We need Buffy to jump, die in the fall and hit the ground. So the characters and audience know she's dead and dispose of her lifeless body accordingly.

Dawn's blood dissolved the dimensional walls in general, not just at that point in the sky. Buffy being killed by the energy in the vortex caused everything to reassert itself quickly, where as the slow bleeding process would have drawn things out. Everything was over so quickly, Buffy just kept falling till she hit that pile of planks or whatever it was.

[> Re: 'The Gift' [Spoilers for S5] -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:23:24 12/17/03 Wed

The portal in question was, unlike most that we've seen on the show, emitting several bolts of mystical energy, which probably means that it killed Buffy before she could actually pass through into another dimension. And, as soon as Buffy died, the portal would close, and all Buffy would have left to pass through would be some leftover mystical energy.

[> When I hear something described as 'mystical' -- MsGiles, 04:19:55 12/18/03 Thu

I reach for my gun I assume that it's a plot device that is impervious to logical explanation, and any attempt to crack its shiny shell (eg with the lasers of analysis) will immediately result in all the force rebounding on the enquirer and frying their mind. So I stay clear. If the thing has emotional rightness in the story, as here, I happily accept it as artistic expression.

At first I thought the portal was a Mcguffin. Then I looked up McGuffin and got
McGuffin (aka: MacGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a PlotEnablingDevice, i.e. a device or plot element in a movie that is deliberately placed to catch the viewer's attention and/or drive the logic of the plot, but which actually serves no further purpose - it won't pop up again later, it won't explain the ending, it won't actually do anything except possibly distract you while you try to figure out its significance. More specifically, it is usually a mysterious package or superweapon or something that everyone in the story is chasing
So Dawn's role as mystic key seems to be more of a McGuffin than the portal, really. It never gets really explained though it drives the plot, and everyone is chasing her (or it, but it seems rude to call her an it). Although unlike The Maltese Falcon (a famous McGuffin) she is the real thing, as it turns out.

[> OK, I'll give this a shot... -- OnM, 19:27:43 12/18/03 Thu

First off, I think Joss made an technical error when he had the 'vortex' referred to as a 'portal' by Giles. (For certain, I recall Giles calling it a 'portal' when asked about the reason that Glory built the tower-- he theorizes that 'the portal must open up there'. Maybe other characters referred to it as a portal also).

However, if we ignore this mistake, the remaining 'logic' of the event pretty much holds up.

If you go back to the early part of The Gift, Giles reads from the book confiscated from Doc, and tells Buffy and the other Scoobies that essentially "When the blood (of the Key) starts to flow, (all) the dimensional walls open up. When the flow of blood stops, the walls close up again". Later on, Glory tells Dawn essentially the same thing.

The 'vortex' which erupts when Dawn's blood enters a specific physical location at a specific time begins the process of breaking down the dimensional walls. The vortex, essentially, is the 'turning of the Key', so to speak. (Several characters, including Glory, refer to 'turning' the Key over the latter course of the season.)

Thus, I see the vortex as, for lack of a better description, the doorknob, and not the door itself. The dissolving of the dimensional walls would have likely taken place at numerous places all over the world(s), not just nearby the vortex, if the blood would keep flowing for a long enough time. (Note that one of Glory's minions states that "the bleeding process will be quite long, actually", when Ben tries to comfort Dawn by saying it will probably be "over quickly").

Finally, recall that descriptive terminology aside, Buffy isn't the first one to guess that jumping into the vortex would kill the person doing so-- before Buffy gets her 'shared-blood epiphany' Dawn tries to jump in to 'stop the blood from flowing' and then Buffy stops her, quickly reaffirming that "it will kill you".

So in short, it's a keyslot/doorknob, (vortex), not a door (portal). In Joss's defense, all this terminology exposition would have been too time-consuming to detail out and by doing so, likely get in the way of the story more than help it along.

[> [> Re: OK, I'll give this a shot... -- Rufus, 03:46:46 12/19/03 Fri

Okay......vortex= honkin big portal....

[> [> keymaster and gatekeeper? -- MsGiles, 05:27:33 12/19/03 Fri

aka Rick Moranis and Sigourney Weaver coupling on top of an art deco skyscraper spring irresistibly to mind ..

[> [> LOL! Who ya gonna call? ;o) -- Rob, 13:16:27 12/19/03 Fri

[> [> [> That was supposed to be a reply to MsGiles. -- Rob, 13:17:52 12/19/03 Fri

The Senior partners/PTB & Buffy -- Spike, 15:17:13 12/17/03 Wed

Hi I just thought of something do the senior partners or TBTB want Buffy on their side? It just seems that they are more intrested in Angel and i do like Angel but shouldn't the partners be worried about a slayer who has stopped like 8 apocalypses?


[> Someone should do an exact count sometime -- DorianQ, 23:55:14 12/17/03 Wed

Here are the ones I remember (I'm talking about general big bad events here and not just true apocalypses and is that the plural of apocalypse?)

The Harvest
Prophecy Girl
The Zeppo
Graduation Day
The Gift

That makes eleven by my count. What did I miss?

[> [> Becoming, Part II -- patrick, 18:07:55 12/18/03 Thu

Becoming, Part II - I think sucking the whole world into hell should qualify as an apocalypse.

[> [> [> How the heck did I miss that one? Me is stupid... -- DorianQ, 18:47:31 12/18/03 Thu

[> Angel is gray -- Ray, 19:27:31 12/18/03 Thu

It'd be near impossible to corrupt Buffy. And she's not immortal. For all we know the Wolfram and Hart Apocalypse is set for next century.

[> [> But the hair dye he uses is very good...even if it does make him look like a poofter -- Random, 10:20:30 12/19/03 Fri

finally up to speed, apocalypse-wise -- msGiles, 04:28:44 12/19/03 Fri

OK, I'm Buffied up! I finally got to the end of S7, which C2 has been showing at a breakneck pace (three eps a week) I know what the cookie dough is all about! I can commiserate with Anya fans (why? why?). I saw Spike go out in a blaze of glory (literally), Caleb sent off in different directions.

I'm going to go back and read some of the posts I couldn't read when (most of) the rest of you saw S7. I'm putting down some knee-jerk now, to get it out of my head so I can think about Christmas presents.

The series had some great points. That ep centred around Andrew, re-creating reality with his video recorder, got me sitting forward. So much juicy stuff in there. Why we like narratives like Buffy, and how viewing/reading/hearing them influences our image of our own life/lives. Writing CV's: making our life into a story where the climax, the happy ever after, would be getting the job. Finding the 'right person', making a narrative the culminates in meeting that person .. but if it doesn't work out, the storyboard is wiped clean and another narrative version starts to be written. The Andrew episode gave me plenty of seeing black and grained spots in my own heart type moments. The great thing about the episode, like all the best of Buffy, was the compassion that went with the scalpel. Andrew got taken apart and put back together. I began to forgive him for being so annoying.

The final sequence of episodes did seem curiously muted, not just by the murky colours that were mentioned here before. The piling on of crazy tension that characterised the last part of S5 wasn't quite there. For one thing, the Slayerettes were all rather anonymous. We never got to know any of them well enough to care whether they lived or died. Even Kennedy, who seemed quite capable of taking on the Slayer mantle, never quite became a real person.

Spike? Well, plenty more JM bravura performances, but even Spike was a little flat, in terms of content. Great to see him revisiting Fool for Love territory, but odd to see him back when he was vamped and coming over as perhaps the nicest bloodsucker ever to become an global scourge. When Angel got vamped, he killed his family horribly. When Spike's mum got vamped, she turned on her son and ridiculed everything he held dear. When Spike got vamped, he still loved his Mum, and wanted him, Drew and Mum to be one happy (albeit murderous) family. Sorry, this is not in the Good Vamping Code. So what is it with Spike? Was he so nice to start with that the demon that took him over couldn't subdue that loving heart, or was he taken over by a particularly wussy demon? We shall never know (unless you guys watching Angel know now, of course)

Gunn .. jury's out. Sunnydale High Principal has always been a thankless job. He never quite got beyond being a foil - mainly for Spike, giving him a rival, an opponent and ultimately an unwilling therapist. Gunn got his Slayer in the end, though.

Faith shone out, ED doing wonderful ambiguity, mixed motives, a kind of honesty coming through all her 'issues' and snarkiness. And great midriff. I hope she and Gunn are very happy. He's devious enough.

'White Willow' .. well, yes, OK.

Really liked the bit at the end, when they were all saying goodby without actually saying it, turning off the corridor as Buffy kept on walking down it, until she was all alone. Dawn 'anything you say will sound like goodbye'. I started to sit up and take notice. And then the final moments, with the bus driving away, as Sunnydale fell into the abyss behind it.

Did Buffy jump the shark at the end of S5? I don't think it's as simple as that. S6 and S7 were still way ahead of most stuff on television, and ahead of any of the other fantasy shows for my money, in terms of writing, content, acting. Patchier than before, though. Sometimes more difficult, less viewer-friendly (all the post-Smashed S/B). Sometimes too mixed in tone (DMP to DT). Sometimes that bit too contrived (just say demon eggs). S6's FX did let it down, but you could argue that was part of the point. It just wasn't a point the audience particularly wanted.

S1 and S2 had a bounce to them. S3 to S5 had a bit-between-the-teeth feeling, a mad race to get everything in, to pile on the shock, the feeling, the vision, the intensity.

S6 was so sad. Everyone drifted, everything went wrong. All the horses fell at the hurdles.

S7 was back in harness, but with the teeth gritted. Adulthood with a vengeance. No way out. Everyone buckled down and did the job, but there was little joy. The feeling at the end, as they look down at the smoking remains of Sunnydale, is one of relief. The whole thing is over at last, over so completely that there can be no going back. Ever.

Now I look forward to seeing the late night uncut S7 being broadcast in January, and getting all that trangressive sex that C2 cut out for pre-watershed transmission.

I wish


[> APOLOGIES spoilers S7 above -- MsGiles, 08:10:18 12/19/03 Fri

[> Re: Wood not Gunn (NT) -- CasinoGB, 11:37:28 12/19/03 Fri

[> [> oopsie. Also bargaining not becoming, that was the other post -- MsGiles, 12:59:57 12/19/03 Fri

[> [> [> bangs head on floor -- MsGiles, 13:08:41 12/19/03 Fri

[> Re: finally up to speed, apocalypse-wise -- Rahael, 17:23:44 12/19/03 Fri

I loved reading this. And the comment about the scalpel, wielded with compassion and Andrew. That was perfect.

(My thoughts are like a case of knives.......)

'Super-Evil Review' Archives -- D2, 08:43:12 12/19/03 Fri

Is there anywhere that the "Super-Evil Reviews" of each episode are posted? I enjoy them so much, and would love to go back and read each one after watching the episodes again!


[> They're in the board archives -- Masq, 09:33:02 12/19/03 Fri


However, your best bet there is to do a site search on "Super Evil Review". I don't know if HonorH/Honorificus has them all catalogued somewhere else.

[> [> Re: They're in the board archives -- Sebastian, 12:55:54 12/19/03 Fri

I would love to get my hands on all the previous Super Evil Reviews as well.

They were/are some of the best damn TV reviews I've read in a long time.

HonorH - is there anyway to get them from you? (Hint, Hint)


[> [> [> Calling HonorH!! Or Honorificus will do--read this thread! -- Masq, 13:27:30 12/19/03 Fri

Or if one of her groveling minions knows the answers, that will also do.

[> [> [> Previous Super Evil reviews -- Masq, 13:30:55 12/19/03 Fri

Are all in the board archives going back several years. They're just hard to find because Honor doesn't necessarily post them right after a new episode airs, esp. the Angel ones (since she doesn't get Angel up there in the ice and snow).

[> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super Evil reviews -- D2, 15:26:16 12/19/03 Fri

Is there any way to get them all put into 1 place? They ARE the most clever reviews, and I would go through archives to get them but sadly,I am internet-illiterate...

[> [> [> [> [> That's actually not a bad idea... -- Random, 15:33:41 12/19/03 Fri

...especially if HonorH/Honorificus has them all. A separate page on the ES site would be an appropriate honor (pun intended...or is that really a pun in the strictest sense of the word? Oooh, it's all just to much for me!)

[> [> [> [> [> Calling Little Bit or Lady Starlight! -- Masq, 15:49:17 12/19/03 Fri

Can we get all HonorH's reviews on ES? Or are they already there?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Calling Little Bit or Lady Starlight! -- LadyStarlight, 19:30:32 12/19/03 Fri

Mired in the midst of computer problems that will hopefully be solved before the new year -- I ordered a new computer.

But that's a good idea to get them up on ES.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super Evil reviews -- LittleBit, 18:09:21 12/19/03 Fri

Honorificus' Super-Evil Reviews:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Once More, With Feeling (special edition)


Beneath You

Same Time, Same Place



Conversations With Dead People


Never Leave Me

Bring on the Night


The Killer in Me

First Date

Get It Done


Lies My Parents Told Me

Dirty Girls

No Super-Evil Review of Empty Places


End of Days


Angel the Series

Apocalypse, Nowish; Habeas Corpses; Long Days Journey; Awakening; Soulless; Calvary; Salvage

Deep Down; Ground State; The House Always Wins; Slouching Toward Bethlehem; Supersymmetry; Spin the Bottle

Release; Orpheus


I believe there were a few more for Angel the Series, posted in HonorH's Live Journal, but I haven't gone and found them (yet).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super Evil reviews -- D2, 18:54:36 12/19/03 Fri

Are there more than this for Buffy? Please tell me that there were more (sob!). Any chance of going back and doing previous seasons for those of us who are feeling the total loss?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Previous Super Evil reviews -- LittleBit, 19:16:20 12/19/03 Fri

The Super-Evil Reviews didn't start until after the concept of the Demonic Alter-egos was created. So only S7 of Buffy and S4 of Angel (with, I'm fairly sure, the last eps in her LJ).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I asked HH to do them for the earlier seasons -- Masq, 22:52:10 12/19/03 Fri

But she told me she didn't have them on tape. ; ( ; (

[> [> [> [> [> [> Little Bit, have I told you you're a goddess lately? -- Masq, 22:49:47 12/19/03 Fri

Well, consider it said!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Awwww... -- LittleBit [blushing], 21:52:59 12/20/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> First Evil's Pet.......tbbppppt!!!!!! -- Rufus, 05:27:59 12/22/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just because... -- LittleBit, 10:47:29 12/22/03 Mon

The First Evil and Mr. Rufus think I'm a goddess is no reason to be childish. On the other hand... mmmmmm...
raspberry!! Yum!!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> OMG! Thanks so much! I was trying to find them the other day and had no idea where to start! -- DorianQ, 23:40:51 12/19/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, 'Bit! -- HonorH, 00:27:29 12/20/03 Sat

And D2, thanks for the interest. I was putting them all into my LJ, but then I got distracted. Easy to do when one has a Super-Evil Alter-Ego who can't keep her eyes off of Viggo Mortensen lately.

You want to do anything with those reviews, Powers That Board, feel free. They're all yours!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Wow, thanks! Now another request -- mamcu, 06:49:17 12/20/03 Sat

It would be totally wonderful to have a link to this index so one could find it from something like the Exitential Scoobies page or mybe just a separate link on the first Archives page?

And I know I'm asking for a lot. Thanks so much for this compilation.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wow, thanks! Now another request -- The First Naughty Virtue, 22:23:38 12/20/03 Sat

That's something the Sidereal Coder and I will look into after the holidays.

What kind of cookie do you think they would be? -- Ann, 10:26:34 12/19/03 Fri

Somewhat OT but with the holiday season here, and we know Buffy is baking in Europe, I thought I would ask:

What kind of cookie would they be? These are my choices:

Buffy - White Chocolate Chip with Macadamia Nut. Has to be chocolate but with a Californian flair using Macadamia.

Angel - At first I thought fudge, but later decided Nanimo Bars. Dark, dense, complicated. More layers were needed.

Spike - I don't know what they are called but they are deep fried dough with icing sugar sprinkled on after cooking. Italians and Mexicans have variations on these. Some call them Angel wings (ha ha but may be metaphor for his role in Angel's life) My other choice is Rocky Road.

Willow - Ginger Snaps - plain on first look but spicy and surprising when you bite.

Cordilia - Shortbread balls with cherry centers

Wes - Fruitcake -He is such a complicated character that I thought only something with so many ingredients would be appropriate.

Gunn - Lemon cookies from a cookie press. He has been "squeezed" into the lawyer role but has a new fresh look. More polished.

Fred - Oatmeal Raisin - plainish but very sweet.

Zander - Peanut butter -dependable and nutritious

Giles - Plain Shortbread - long history, basis for many other cookies.

Oz - Peanut Brittle - sharp, unassuming but with tasty depth.

Kendra - Rum Balls -Jamaican of course.

Faith: Chocolate chocolate-chip dipped in chocolate. Very intense.

Any others?


[> also I can't forget -- Ann, 10:34:42 12/19/03 Fri

Lorne: thumbprint cookie or stained glass cookie

[> [> what about anya? -- cockneylass, 21:28:39 12/19/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: what about anya? -- Ann, 06:28:47 12/20/03 Sat

Oops - Has to be a Fortune cookie!

[> Mmmmmm M'Fashnik! That's I wanted to say :-)... -- angel's nibblet, 12:09:30 12/19/03 Fri

Checkin in... -- angel's nibblet, 12:02:04 12/19/03 Fri

Hello everyone!

Just got back yesterday from my 3 week europe-jaunt (hehe) and thought see how you are all doing. At least I didn't miss any new Angel episodes! (what is with the long gaps? when seasons are shown here in NZ, which doesn't happen to often, they're done at a run and are over within six months) But that does give me time to catch up on my season 4 watching! Hope everyone is doing OK and you haven't missed me too much ;-) May come back later to see if anyone is in chat..




[> A-N! We've missed you... -- Random, 20:49:59 12/19/03 Fri

Hope you had lots of fun

[> [> Oh it was fabulous dahling ;-) So many crazy stories! -- angel's nibblet, 23:27:05 12/19/03 Fri

Angel's argument with Jamsine, the Shanshu prophecy (spoilers for AtS 4.21 Peace out, and AtS 5.1-8) -- Rohar, 12:24:50 12/19/03 Fri

I was thinking about all the commentary in ATPoBtVS & AtS's section on the Shanshu prophecy and the fact that Angel has lost all faith in that prophecy. If that is so, how do we explain this little section of Angel's exchange with Jasmine, once he'd ended her control over everyone ?

No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices. I offered paradise. You chose this!

Because I could. Because that's what you took away from us. Choice.

And look what free will has gotten you.

Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.

But you're not human.

Working on it. (Jasmine turns to walk away) Where you going?

(walking away) Leave me alone.

In that exchange - Jasmine tell Angel he's not human, and Angel claims to be "working on it" - which would contradict the idea that Angel's given up. So - was that merely a defiant response to Jasmine, or something more ? Opinions please ?

Oh and after reading that section, I've realised another analogy between Angel in Series 5, and Buffy in series 6. Both faced gods in the preceding series (BtVS 5, and Ats 4) and both "appear to going through the motions" of their jobs - with their hearts not in it ... maybe our broody vampire boy needs Buffy to give him advice ? *grins*



[> No time to comment, but you should definitely keep in mind... -- Rob, 13:13:20 12/19/03 Fri

...that that exchange took place before Angel's fateful decision in Home.


[> [> Re: No time to comment, but you should definitely keep in mind... -- Rohar, 18:58:13 12/19/03 Fri

Hmmm ..... good point. However if we consider that Jasmine's actions dealt a severe, even fatal blow to Angel's trust in the Shanshu prophecy, then even before Angel made his decision about Connor, there must have been huge doubts anyway, so that statement would still, in my mind be a huge contradiction and a question point.


[> [> [> The way I read that is... (Home spoils) -- Rob, 17:46:08 12/20/03 Sat

But you're not human.

Working on it.

...not that Angel was referring to working on becoming a literal, actual, flesh-and-blood human again, but that he is fighting his vampiric urges and struggling and striving to be as human as he possibly can, in other words to continue caring for the human race, to continue battling on the side of the greater good. It didn't even occur to me watching the episode that he was thinking of the possibility of a Shanshu here.

Also, at this point Angel didn't see the full negative effects of the loss of Jasmine's hold on the people. Nor was he offered W&H yet. He did what he considered to be saving the world, and as a result brought discontentment and misery to thousands, and then was rewarded for that by having the most evil people in the world as him to work for them. And that is before he discovers that his son has gone completely over the deep end, plans on blowing himself up, along with a store full of innocent people, and blames Angel completely for doing all of this to him. Had the death of Jasmine caused no ill effects, had W&H never approached him, had Connor not reached such a low point, Angel perhaps might still have some faith in the prophecy. But a lot can change in a day.


OT - Christmas Poem 2003 -- Brian, 20:06:54 12/20/03 Sat

(A Loomis-Chaffee Christmas Memory)

It is the year of the Connecticut ice storm:
No power, no heat, no cooked food.
The persistent cold has made us bitter and quarrelsome.
Deborah and I are buried under a pile of overdue Christmas cards.
We are working by candlelight:
Deborah is drawing simple winter scenes,
While I add short poems, and address envelopes.
In our cold-numbed minds we suddenly remember,
It's the Saturday afternoon before Christmas,
And we realize that we still need more decorations for our tree.
So, cards are pushed aside,
And it's on with our winter clothes,
Down the dorm stairs,
And out into the quad.
Strapping on our skis,
Across the campus, we speed;
Down the slopes, we plunge;
And into the cornfields, we go.

Basil and Bogart are barking,
Racing through the bright fall of new snow,
Chasing imaginary squirrels and rabbits,
Plowing their muzzles into the snow to feel the sharp tang of cold.

We leave school civilization behind,
And head for the narrow band of forest between the fields and the river.
We hope to find pinecones, seedpods, straw flowers, and colorful grasses.
Above us the sky is still cerulean blue even in the slating rays of the setting sun.
The air is crisp and clean; its cold touch against our reddening faces.
As we ski and search, the world falls quiet,
Just the steady swish, swish, swish of our skis cutting through the snow,
And the distant murmur of birdsong.

In time, our sack is nearly full
When we find the mother lode:
A fallen tree, branches laced with vines of bittersweet,
Their red and yellow berries a crowning treasure for our hunt.

Finished with our task, we stand next to each other,
Balancing ever so carefully on our skis.
The dogs are paused for a moment at our feet,
And we look back at the school:
A distant, muted outline against the fading daylight.
We turn back for a quick kiss,
Arms wrapped awkwardly around each other,
And in that instant
We merge with land and sky,
Lost in each other's eyes,
We touch that quiet pool of recognition and redemption.
We will endure another day against the cold and the darkness in our lives.

The dogs are off in speedy flashes of white against the white landscape.
Reluctantly, we return towards home
In the final rays of dying sunlight.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all posters near and far.


[> Christmas Poem 2003 - Now, that really get's me in the Christmas mood. -- CW, 20:36:03 12/20/03 Sat

Thanks, Brian. Great, as usual!

[> [> Re: Thanks for your kind words, CW -- Brian, 21:11:27 12/20/03 Sat

[> [> Re: Christmas Poem 2003 - Now, that really get's me in the Christmas mood. -- wombat, 21:24:44 12/20/03 Sat

That was really lovely. Thanks for sharing it with us.

[> [> [> Re: Christmas Poem 2003 - Now, that really get's me in the Christmas mood. -- jane, 00:05:48 12/21/03 Sun

That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with us. I just spent a lovely evening with two dear friends I haven't seen for ages. We had dinner, saw The Return of the King, and exchanged gifts,news and hugs. Your poem was a delightful end to the evening. I would like to wish you, and everyone else who sees this, the very Happiest of Christmases, and health,love and peace in the coming year.

[> [> [> [> Re: FYI - Some notes for Christmas Poem 2003 -- Brian, 11:49:07 12/21/03 Sun


1.Loomis Chaffee School is located in the Connecticut River Valley, about 6 miles north of Hartford. It is the 7th largest prep school for boys and girls in America with over 700 students.

2.The ice storm was the worst in 50 years. It encrusted the Connecticut River Valley with over two inches of ice on everything. Power was off for a week. Deborah and I were in the initial stages of hypothermia before we finally had our first hot meal.

3.Basil and Bogart are English Setters, Hunters, not show dogs. They ran like the wind.

[> [> [> [> Thank you, jane -- dub ;o), 13:21:38 12/21/03 Sun

And Brian, I think that is absolutely the most beautiful poem you have posted so far. Thank you, too.

And a Happy, Peaceful, and Blessed Solstice to all.

dub ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Dub, and Happy Holidays to all - See you '04 -- Brian, 15:04:36 12/21/03 Sun

[> Oh Thank you Brian....... -- Rufus, 05:32:19 12/22/03 Mon

Lovely poem, the best I can do is offer you the following.

Link to Rufus's Seasons Greetings.....

Just look at the pretty picture, don't read any of the Trollopy goodies.

OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting article in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- OnM, 12:33:29 12/21/03 Sun

Go here:


[> Re: OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting article in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- LonesomeSundown, 19:24:52 12/21/03 Sun

I think one should be very careful about what exactly Newburg's work is saying, if anything.

The apple pie analogy is flawed at a fundamental level. The presence of the pie causes brain activity, but the presence of brain activity says exactly zero about the existence of the pie. What happens to brain activity if the subject is hallucinating about an apple pie?

So my frontal lobe lights up when I am meditating. Is this part more active when I am focusing on solving a math problem or analysing Buffy?

At the same time, the parietal lobe - the part that helps you locate yourself in relation to your environment - goes dark and quiet . Well, why not since you are stationary and cocentrating? It's more than a stretch to say that it has to do with "the feeling of unifying with a larger, boundless universe".

He goes on to say "If we go with the presumption that the brain processes our information about reality, then we are left with a secondhand sense of what the world is about. You can't get outside your own brain to know reality."
The alternative is go with the presumption that there is a reality we can experience without the aid of the brain. If that is the case, how does he expect to learn anything about it by looking at brain scans and interpreting data with his brain?

As for the conflict (or lack thereof) between science and faith I highly recommend Gould's Rocks of Ages.

[> [> Re: OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting article in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- skpe, 11:32:19 12/22/03 Mon

For those interested in this topic I would highly recommend
'Religion explained' by Pascal Boyer

[> Thanks for posting, OnM. Like to read stuff I don't agree with, sometimes :-) -- LonesomeSundown, 19:28:31 12/21/03 Sun

[> Re: OT re BtVS but philosophically interesting article in today's *Philadelphia Inquirer* -- skeeve, 08:12:23 12/22/03 Mon

Perhaps we can also argue about Hybrids by Robert J. Sawyer.

Live From California . . . -- Claudia, 11:36:50 12/22/03 Mon

Live from downtown Los Angeles . . . we just endured an earthquake centered near San Luis Obispo at 6.5 on the Richter scale. It was a rolling type of earthquake that was definitely felt here in downtown Los Angeles. The aftershock was rated at 4.3. The citizens of San Luis Obispo are being evacuated.


[> Re: Live From California . . . -- skpe, 11:43:31 12/22/03 Mon

We felt it here in O.C.

[> [> Re: Live From California . . . -- Claudia, 11:50:51 12/22/03 Mon

Yeah, our office building shook for a good 5 minutes after the quake (it's built on rollers to protect it from major damage).

[> Hang in there Claudia, and thank you for confirmation. -- Briar Rose, 11:57:13 12/22/03 Mon

[> Hopefully not a portent ;-) -- KdS, 12:18:32 12/22/03 Mon

[> Re: Live From California . . . -- CasinoGB, 12:55:08 12/22/03 Mon

We felt it here in San Francisco.

[> [> Re: Live From California . . . -- Claudia, 15:07:37 12/22/03 Mon

At least three people were reported dead in Paso Robles.

Interesting - between October and December, Los Angeles has experienced a transit strike, a grocery strike, a major fire, a thunderstorm (a rarity in Southern California) and now an earthquake. Whoever made that comment about portents, might have something.

Current board | More December 2003