November 2002
posts
Keeping Spike in the Closet: Transgression of the
Constructed American
Male -- Rochefort, 22:05:08 11/05/02 Tue
I cheered when I
found out Spike and Xander are going to be rooming. If the
writers stay on top
of things this can be SO MUCH FUN.
I really think that with all its
attempts at transgressing gender roles, BTVS can do much
more than it has with
male friendships. I mean I know it's often been mentioned
how we can all just
FEEL the potential when Xander and Spike get to a bit of
talking that isn't just
fighting.
It would be so fun if some of this actually gets played out
to
its full fruition. A non-sexual positive relationship
between the two of them
that nevertheless continues to play with the need for Xander
to keep Spike's
compact yet well muscled body in the closet stuff would just
be a riot. The "who
havn't you slept with line" earlier this season should just
be the start. Male
friendships have so much to overcome in American society and
our blasted silly
homophobia and our non-emotional non-relationship exploring,
head-butt image of
the ideal male. I think that ME can portray all those issues
in Xander and Spike
and do some really socially worthwhile transgressions.
[> be careful what you wish for? -- anom,
22:38:45 11/05/02 Tue
"I really think that with all its attempts at transgressing
gender
roles, BTVS can do much more than it has with male
friendships."
Wasn't
it in an early ep of season 6 that Xander made a Defcon
reference, the women all
looked "huh?" at him, & he said: "I so need male
friends"? Somehow I
don't think this was what he had in mind!
"Male friendships have so much
to overcome in American society and our blasted silly
homophobia and our
non-emotional non-relationship exploring, head-butt image of
the ideal
male."
...as opposed to the head-up-the-butt type of image that
usually
results from attempts to live up to it.
Spike's new living arrangements: how precisely did this
happen? (7.6
spoiler) -- HonorH (the mad bard), 23:04:14 11/05/02
Tue
I've
got a theory! To wit:
X: (slowly and sincerely) Buffy, you know how sorry
I am for the whole Angel thing. I was young and stupid and .
. . my reasons
don't matter. I was wrong, and it cost you. And you know I'd
do anything for
you, right? I mean, you're my best friend, and I love you.
But this . . . Buffy,
it's too much. I can't handle it.
B: Come on, Xander, it won't be
forever.
X: Doesn't matter. Spike as my roommate? I don't think I
could
go a whole day without staking him!
B: He's got a soul now. He needs our
help. That basement is killing him, and I think the best
option is your
place.
X: I'm sorry, Buffy. I don't think I can do it.
B: (sighs)
Okay, I thought you might feel that way. It's all right; I
know it was a lot to
ask. I guess I'll just have to go with my original plan and
ask Anya to put him
up.
X: (choking) Anya?
B: Well, you know, I thought that with her
just getting un-demoned and all, they could help each other.
Sort of an
ex-demon's club. Of course, it's going to be a bit awkward
since they, you know,
did the dirty, but I'm sure they'll be able to get over that
. . .
X: You
know, come to think of it, I could use a roommate. Think
he'd pay half the
expenses?
(Later with Spike, in the basement)
B: Spike. It's time
for you to move on. Come with me. I've found a place for you
to stay.
S:
(muttering) Not leaving. This is my place.
B: Don't make me move you,
Spike. This is not your home; it's eating your brain.
S: It *is* my home!
I have callers. You, Crimmons the Rat, the little girl and
her dog--
B:
And I'm sure they'll all be able to find you at your new
place. Well, not the
rat, but I'll be there, and, you know, the little girl and
the dog can always .
. . sniff you out, and why don't you just come with me?
You'll be lots better
off.
S: Where are we going?
B: New place. Very nice. Hey, you can
have a bed, and a shower, and even hot chocolate!
S: With little
marshmallows?
B: Absolutely.
S: Well . . . okay. (Stands up) Where
to, then?
B: You'll be staying with Xander.
S: Xander? Bugger
that! (Sits back down)
B: (pulling him back up) Come on, Spike. It took
me forever to clear this with him, and you'll be a lot
better off where we can
keep an eye on you and help you. Move, or I'll move you.
S: He'll give me
that look--you know, like when your hair hurts and little
crawly things are in
your skull behind your eyes and your skin feels like it's
shrinking and turning
inside-out, and you can't do a thing to stop it!
B: I made him promise
specifically not to give you that look. It's okay,
everything's okay, just come
with me.
S: Heh. They'll find me. The girl's quite mad, but her dog
always speaks excellent sense.
B: Right. Of course. One foot in front of
the other, just keep moving . . .
[> LOL! The thought about Anya crossed my mind
also. -- Deb,
03:38:14 11/06/02 Wed
Perhaps that's why Buffy wants to keep Anya
close too. Now she has everyone where she wants them.
[> [> Re: LOL! The thought about Anya crossed my
mind also. --
Sometime Lurker, 10:34:42 11/06/02 Wed
Or more specifically,
where she needs them. Buffy has faced really really big evil
with this group
before, she knows that when this new evil shows itself they
will all be her best
bet for dealing with it.
The jacket (Spoilers from "Him") -- Earl Allison,
03:03:20 11/06/02
Wed
Cute episode, although there were plot-holes large enough
for
Wilkins-Olvocon to slither through.
If the jacket made Willow, Anya,
Buffy, and Dawn change so drastically in such a short period
of time, why wasn't
the school a madhouse long ago? The excuse in "Bewitched,
Bothered, and
Bewildered" was that Xander's love spell was new, and the
obsessions set in
quickly.
The jacket, if the story is to be believed, has lasted
through
three men, with NO visible and dramatic obsessions before
Dawn and the others
were affected. Why? Sure, it's likely the injured
cheerleader was a victim of
the coat's power over someone, but shouldn't there have been
a LOT more of that
going on? It just smacks of those awful monster movies where
some creature has
survived for countless years, and starts killing everyone in
sight during the
movie -- in other words, behaving in exactly the wrong way
to avoid being
detected.
Also, did RJ even know what the jacket did? I thought so at
first, when he was trying to slip it on, and I thought he
was trying to use it
on Buffy. But his older brother clearly had no real idea, or
he wouldn't have
given it up.
If RJ DIDN'T know, he's almost sympathetic, because he
wasn't using it to get girls.
Take it and run.
[> Re: The jacket (Spoilers from "Him") -- Deb,
04:02:06 11/06/02
Wed
Swoosh! Batman and Robin appear from nowhere and mug the
unaware
RJ of the enchanted jacket that he had just begun to wear
and his girl friend
steps back in horror because she can no longer touch his
soul. He is just
another hs jock and her love dies as the caped duo run like
hell into the
darkness of the night. Our superheros prove, once again,
that one does not need
technology, magic, a butler or cool cars to get the job done
and done right.
Batman proves to himself that he does not need a cape and
Robin realizes that
the campy outfit just doesn't do anything for him anymore.
Batman returns to the
bat closet to answer the email inside his head, and Robin
burns the letter
jacket knowing that when he was in high school it wasn't
that the girls didn't
like him. The girls just liked letter jackets better.
Meanwhile, Catwoman makes
off with the cash.
[> [> Does Spike hang upside-down in the bat-
closet? -- Doug the
Bloody, 10:49:52 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> Relevance? -- Earl
Allison, 11:47:29 11/06/02 Wed
A cute post, but since it
totally ignored any question I had, I'm torn between
wondering if it was a
simple hijack, or mocking me for having the "audacity" to
ask anything about
this.
I'm really hoping it's the former. Although you could have
simply
started another thread.
Take it and run.
[> [> [> It answers your question -- Deb,
16:21:25 11/06/02
Wed
The kid just started wearing the thing and its the beginning
of
the school year, therefore the jacket has not been worn in
quite awhile. The
jacket was enchanted, but who wears a letter jacket if they
haven't lettered
while in high school?
I'm sorry if you feel that I hijacked your thread.
My answer was a legititmate form of criticism, and since the
writers obviously
were being quite campy with their own material, that is how
I deconstructed the
text. My methodology was metaphorical with cluster
associations (i.e. Burke)
with a campy, silly worldview, and I took it and ran with
it.
I read the
threads posted last night, and it is quite apparent that
some people do not read
other people's thread or there would not be so much
redundancy. In addition, the
posts were so serious. If one views this text from a serious
point of view only
then it does not make as much sense or seem funny or appear
to have much depth.
This was a masterful comedic text that just happened to make
fun of
itself.
I watch Buffy because it actually demands of me to engage my
brain in order to participate. The show is one big allusion;
one big metaphor;
one big paradigm about life in western, postmodern society
and if one views only
towards the serious, high art side then they are missing out
on one big funny,
low art, joke that must be tragedy's shadow lest we all take
ourselves too
seriously. Meanings in text will always outnumber the actual
size of the
audience.
You throw out questions and ask people to take them and run
with them. You never said that only serious posts are
desired, totally redundant
posts. If I post here anymore, I will be doubly sure that
what I post is
presented in such a manner.
My apologies.
[> [> [> [> No worries ... -- Earl Allison,
18:13:23 11/06/02
Wed
As long as your intent was pure (at least, not nasty), there
is
no need for apologies. I simply couldn't see any relevance
in what you posted --
chalk it up to differing POVs.
Post as you see fit, please.
Take
it and run.
[> Re: The jacket (Spoilers from "Him") -- Quentin
Collins,
04:39:48 11/06/02 Wed
Good question. I was wondering the same
thing. I guess there are some possible (if not plausible
explanations). RJ may
not have been wearing it for that long. The weather was
likely too warm in
Sunnydale to get much use out of it this autumn until
recently. The female
Scoobies probably acted so decisively because . . . they are
the female
Scoobies. They are certainly "out there" compared to the
typical high school
girl. Buffy is fairly aggressive in sexual matters and does
tend to solve most
problems by resorting to violence. Willow does tend to use a
spell as a shortcut
for every problem. Even Dawn's histrionics only seemed about
a notch or two
higher than usual. The fact that Willow and Anya have
recently been heartbroken,
Buffy seems destined to spend the rest of her life yearning
for a good lover,
and lonely Dawn hasn't had as much as a kiss since "All the
Way" might make them
more susceptible as well.
Wood's comments seemed to indicate that the
high school girls had been doing a lot of things for R.J. of
late. I got the
impression that he did not know that the jacket had magical
properties. I
wouldn't feel too sorry for him, though. He did make the
football team on his
own (as the coaching staff is certainly male), and it looks
like with the other
quarterback down with an injury, he will again be the first
string quarterback.
From what his brother said, R.J. does seem to be more
intelligent and well
rounded than the typical Sunnydale student/athlete.
[> Re: The jacket (Spoilers from "Him") --
ponygirl, 12:29:52
11/06/02 Wed
I had the same quibble myself over the relative
calmness of the school's female population in contrast to
the Scoobs rapid
freakout, and rather than the simplest explanation: it was
convenient for the
plot, I'd suggest that the Hellmouth energies, most likely
getting ready for
some major badness, are being directed, and that direction
is towards the
Scoobies. So my wild and groundless speculation is that the
Hellmouth gave the
jacket's powers a massive boost, but only with regards to
the female Scoobies.
With the flashback to BB&B, ME seems to be acknowledging
how a love spell
gone wild should work -- with every woman being effected in
equal measure -- so
I'm hoping this was indeed a deliberate move.
[> [> Ok, but -- Sophist, 12:55:20 11/06/02
Wed
what
about all those years when Lance and the father wore the
jacket? How come we
never noticed it in S1-3?
I think we just have to overlook some plot
holes, especially in the more comedic episodes.
[> [> [> Re: Ok, but -- ponygirl,
13:39:52 11/06/02 Wed
Well, my point was that the Hellmouth is juicing up for
something
(perhaps November sweeps!) and it gave RJ's jacket some
extra mojo, but ONLY for
the fem Scoobies. It's just spec, or possibly spackle over a
hole.
[> [> [> Glamour, Charisma, beyond
Predestination, Freedom, Dignity
subject to Irony -- Cleanthes,
17:55:15 11/06/02
Wed
what about all those years when Lance and the father wore
the
jacket? How come we never noticed it in S1-3?
I think we just have to
overlook some plot holes, especially in the more comedic
episodes.
Plot received its defining from Aristotle, that old soft
determinist. He made up all that stuff (I want to say ousia,
but I'm restraining
myself, because I don't want to wax metaphysically Eleatic)
about plot holes and
plot devices and unity of blah, blah.
"Plot" imagines that cause
and effect control everything. Fooie. Phooie! Somethings are
just senseless.
That's free will! And that's why there's no dignity in love
spells.
So,
I'm in complete agreement with regard to comedy episodes and
"plot holes" and,
for that matter, in regard to dramatic episodes too, because
unlike Cause,
Irony can apply recursively to itself. (eg. what's the
cause of cause? Don't
even think about it - you'll not have enough aspirin. But
feel free to be as
ironic about irony as you like. I betcha can even beat
me!)
Meanwhile,
R.J.'s ancestors had the good sense to use the jacket
judiciously.
And
Anya, Buffy, Dawn & Willow have too damn much glamour
and charisma and other
uncaused effects that the scientific method doesn't know
squat about. So,
naturally, they get bitten more assiduously than most by the
glamourous,
charismatic Epinician magic.
[> [> [> Re: Ok, but -- Isabel, 20:08:13
11/06/02 Wed
Xander did mention that Lance was a few years older than
they were. So
he could have graduated at the end of the gang's Sophomore
year and the girls
could have been so far down the social strata that they'd
never have gotten
anywhere near enough to Lance to fall under his mojo. This
can also apply to
Cordelia since I can imagine that while it looked like she
ruled the high
school, she may have only ruled their class. Can you imagine
the reigning Senior
B*tches bowing to a sophomore upstart? No way!
[> Re: The jacket (Spoilers from "Him") -- fresne,
13:00:14
11/06/02 Wed
Since I spent the morning documenting some fascinating
statistics, I have a theory.
A theory of wild, epic, grandiose
proportions.
The coat of the variable affects.
It’s an allergy
thing. Or rather, the Scoobies have a higher sensitivity to
the magic than the
average Hellmouth living residents.
Buffy – Slayer
Willow – Magic is a
part of her
Dawn – Key
Anya – cast spells, then demon, then magic shop
owner, then demon, now Amilee.
Most of the women who come into contact
with the wearer of the jacket (I feel a LOTR connection
somehow) may just get
fluttery crushes. Preen for his attention. Accidentally
break legs. Do his
homework. Questionable, but no meltdown. The longer the
exposure, perhaps the
worse it gets.
However, for those women who’ve been exposed to just a bit
too much of the magic or perhaps are magic by nature,
meltdown of epic
proportions.
The alley catfight is a bit of a problem, what with the not
fitting and all, but hey for all we know the girl is on the
magic pipe or part
quarkaldh fa’eohoier demon.
Anyway, that’s my theory and I may very well
stick to it.
[> Re: The jacket (Spoilers from "Him") -- Shiraz,
13:38:38
11/06/02 Wed
While I don't know if CJ knew precisely the power of
his jacket, but, in my opinion he was definately using its
power to manipulate
girls to his advantage.
For one, it certainly looked like he was using
the cheerleaders to cement his place on the football team
despite his poor game
performance.
Secondly, when he was brought in to the office, Mr. Wood
told him to "stop taking advantage of those girls and do
your own homework for a
change", implying that this had been going on for some time.
That had to be
intentional on RJ's part.
Finally, it looked to me like he was goading
Buffy to do something about principle Wood. He must have
mentioned how badly Mr.
Wood was riding him five times in as many minutes - while
Buffy was coming on to
him! (Talk about misplaced priorities! :)
As to why the jacket didn't
seem to have as extreme an effect when his brother was
wearing it, I think its a
combination of two factors:
1. RJ looked to be a bit smarter than his
brother (who said he was in the chess club, model UN etc.
before the jacket) and
might have figured out how to more effectively use his
mysterious powers.
and
2. How do we know that the jacket wasn't having a similar
power
back in the bad old days? After all, back in Snyder's reign
of terror smart
girls were expected to do the Jock's homework and mysterious
accidents among
Sunndale students were so common as to be unremarkable.
Just my take on
things.
-Shiraz
[> Ghostbusters and a "twinkie defense" -- Steve,
14:50:19 11/06/02
Wed
The same problem of "mojo intensification" was explicity
raised
in Ghostbusters[1], when the crew wondered why they were
getting busy all of
sudden - (remember, Egon worked out that if the normal
amount of psychic energy
was the equivalent of a regular twinkie, the amount of
psyhic energy then in NYC
was equivalent to a twinkie the size of the Chrysler
building, or somesuch) -
Ray worried that it might be because the dead were rising as
described in the
Book of Revelations, i.e. an approaching Apocalypse.
In the same way, a
jacket that for years worked at close range or only on a few
people at a time,
could have been given a huge power boost by the perturbed
Hellmouth. This would
explain why the cheerleading captain was also so affected as
to attack Dawn in
the Alley, and why the effect was so rapid. I agree that the
Scoobie women would
probably be even more susceptible to Hellmouth mojo after
all their years wading
knee deep in its magical pollution.
Also don't forget, they took pains
to point out that there was very little overlap between the
jacket's previous
outing at Sunnydale High and the founding of the
Scoobies.
[1] Can anyone
remember the episode (or even the series!) where either
Giles or Wes makes a
reference to "Tobin's Sprit Guide", one of the HP Lovecraft
inspired book titles
in the Ghostbusters movie?
Farce, Spoof, Silly or Something else. the “Him”
Justification -- neaux,
04:23:48 11/06/02 Wed
Farce, Spoof, Silly or Something else. the
“Him” Justification
Farce. A light dramatic work in which highly
improbable plot situations, exaggerated characters, and
often slapstick elements
are used for humorous effect. Sort of.. but not really.
Spoof: A gentle
satirical imitation; a light parody. Sort of yes, maybe
no.
Silly:
Lacking seriousness or responsibleness;Yes it was silly.
Him. The
objective case of he.
1. Used as the direct object of a verb: They saw him
at the meeting.
2. Used as the indirect object of a verb: They offered him a
ride.
3. Used as the object of a preposition: This telephone call
is for
him.
The last one was a joke of course.. and that was what “Him”
really
classifies as one big joke. But it goes further than that
really. Lemme put
tonight’s episode into the perspective of the general
television series. Every
series that has produced over 100 episodes has done the
“obligatory rehash
episode.” This is the episode that is commonly presented in
the form of a
montage of flashbacks to previous episodes. Usually in
sitcom form, the group of
characters sit around a table and reminisce over previous
episode antics. This
concept has been spoofed perfectly by the Simpsons but I can
tell that the folks
at ME wanted to put their own spin on it. The tried to
create an entirely new
episode using elements of all old episodes.
If you cant tell that “Him”
is really going this route, they put it in your face when
Xander has his
flashback to “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” when of
course he is thinking
back at the Kitchen Table. The point I tried to make in chat
last night is that
every scene in the episode was a “flashback” or reference to
previous episodes.
While I wont attempt to break down every scene and tell what
episode it
came from.. this is where you guys come in. If you wish to..
please use this
thread to do so and hopefully if you look at the episode
from this perspective
you may enjoy the episode more.
[> Please read above post.. spoilers for Him --
neaux, 04:25:22
11/06/02 Wed
[> Re: Farce, Spoof, Silly or Something else. the
“Him” Justification
-- JM, 05:29:56 11/06/02 Wed
neaux, if you get a chance, I would
love to hear an elaboration. I'm going to go watch it again
with just that
mindset. I remember seeing SP,ST much differently after
reading sk's friend's
essay on POV.
[> [> Re: Farce, Spoof, Silly or Something else.
the “Him”
Justification -- JM, 05:52:45 11/06/02 Wed
My bad, I see that
there was a lot of metanarration stuff lower down on the
board. Will go to work
and then come back and watch.
[> Tillow -- Tillow, 07:26:27 11/06/02 Wed
There's the
pizza uniform — practically the same one Xander wears in
Doomed.
The
rocket launcher from Innocence.
Willow calls on the Goddess Hecatae..
who Amy calls on in Bewitched and Gingerbread.
The Cheerleading maddness
from The Witch.
Posessed dancing at the Bronze a la When She Was Bad.
And he's wearing THE COAT.. as per Intervention.
I haven't
skimmed the board. And these are just a few off the top of
my head to get the
thread going. But you're absolutely right. And I think this
is one of the
funniest eps ever!! Loved the Charlie's Angels montage in
the middle.
[> Bits, pieces, questions. "Him" spoilers. --
Darby, 07:47:27
11/06/02 Wed
Well, there's the classic
Xander-finds-Buffy-straddling-someone shot, even though it
was the Buffybot
before. Can't have too many of those!
Friends consoling friends on the
whatever-they-are parapet thingees outside the high
school.
Is BtVS the
only show that drops the viewers into the end of a fight,
wraps it up and then
explains what's going on?
The smoochies scene certainly was reminiscent
of several Buffy-Angel no-self-control moments from way back
when.
Buffy
still drives the same way. And the same car,
appaarently.
Xander "taking
in" Spike, quite reluctantly.
Anya really interacting with the team
again, including some abrasion with Willow.
Off this topic, exactly what
does Him mean - it seems an odd choice for a title. I
can see that it can
imply an object with no particular identity, but is there
more significance than
that? Is there a reference here - other than an obscure
Marvel Comics character
- that I'm ignorant of?
And further off-topic, how much of the "in love
with the trappings" plot was aimed at certain fans out here
in the world? Were
we being tweaked, too? There certainly was some element to
that in addressing
Dawn's "hotness." ...Yes, ME is saying, we understand it,
but we know this girl
and it's wrong, wrong, wrong.
- Darby, who didn't think much of this
piece of fluff until I started reading the board, but is now
looking for
implications in the new hairstyles!
[> Inanimate Objects in “Him” and the Gestalt Theory
of Advertising --
neaux, 08:00:05 11/06/02 Wed
Inanimate Objects in “Him” and the
Gestalt Theory of Advertising
Gestalt follows the theory of “the part
reflecting the whole”. Its commonly used in advertising
rather than showing the
actual product in question to show only part of the object.
The idea is that the
product is already recognizable and therefore showing a
section of it still gets
the point across of what is being promoted.
As can be argued is the case
of “Him” where inanimate objects do the job of representing
entire past episodes
of Buffy. Yes “Him” is a fun episode, and heck I’m sure it
will be used in party
games and minutely analyzed in the “chatty” rooms and
websites of all the cool
references or shout outs in this one show. But the question
to ask is why did
the cast do this? Did they really do this for fun for the
viewers to “catch”
these references or did they use this as a tool to advertise
their show? As in
“this is what you are missing out on.. buy our past episodes
on DVD or watch FX
for old eps?”
its something to think about.
and while you do that
here a list of objects and places to create your own
game.
Here are some
starters, some of which have already been mentioned in this
forum.
The
Angel figurine:
The Jacket:
The cheerleading outfit
The
Rocket Launcher:
The Robbery Mask:
The Upstairs Bed:
Not
only inanimate objects but places:
The Bronze:
The Bronze
alley:
The Bleachers:
The Stairway of the school:
The
Classroom:
[> [> Re: More than that. -- DEN, 08:29:22
11/06/02 Wed
Another reason to look beneath "Him's" surface is the
pattern of
escalation in the Scoobies' responses. Dawn begins with a
crush explainable in
"natural" terms. Then she escalates to violence that causes
injury. Buffy in
turn raises the stakes to an overt sexual encounter,
inappropriate in almost any
conceivable context. From that the script takes its women
to, respectively, dark
magic, murder, robbery, and suicide. All but the last are
played somewhat for
laughs--but all are "real." (A bit OT: there's a really good
W/T fanfic in which
a Willowspell goes wonky and she winds up with a penis for
24 hours--kind of an
inversion of that Madonna song, "Do You Know What It Feels
Like?")In any case,
there's more here--I'm still working on what it is.
[> [> They did it for November Sweeps, so yes it is
advertising. --
Deb, 09:09:47 11/06/02 Wed
[> Re: Farce, Spoof, Silly or Something else.
Disagree -- DEN,
08:02:52 11/06/02 Wed
Far from being just a collage of
flashbacks, "Him" stands, in conception at least, with the
best of the "high
school" eps of s1-3. Its focus is the letter jacket as a
magical object--and who
among us has not had that experience one way or another?!
The jacket is,
moreover, truly magic in that its powers are independent of
the possessor. That
is what makes the ep different essentially from BBB and the
similar
"spell-based" eps of yore. Note Willow's frustration when
she can't find a
cognate spell anywhere.A good part of the fun is RJ's
virtually affectless
behavior throughout--as though somehow all these good things
came to him
because, like Figaro's Count Almaviva, "he took the trouble
to be born"--again a
classic BtVS "take" on a universal high school type.(We KNOW
the actor playing
the role is not THAT bad!)
The catch, of course, is why the Scooby women
are so susceptible. On the most obvious level, the jacket
cannot have that
extreme effect universally, or it would fail in its "object"
of enhancing the
wearer's life by making him too conspicuous (cf.BBB et. al).
That in turn puts
three Scoobies beyond the jacket's "useful range," for what
seem obvious reasons
of age and sexual orientation.
There are some fine explanations below. I
might suggest that perhaps the Scoobies have been exposed to
magic so much, they
are vulnerable, in the way of some people who have often
been stung by insects.
And of course shadowkat and others make a great case for the
plot line as a
framework for deeper character developmental issues. No
quarrel there--I'm only
trying to make a case for the story itself.
[> [> Not a disagreement.. good points --
neaux, 08:30:57
11/06/02 Wed
I totally believe it is MORE than just a collage of
flashbacks, but for some people to catch the full humor of
the episode its good
to look at it at a basic level. And as a "best of high
school eps" still
supports my theory.
dont really see a disagreement here. See my other
post on the Gestalt theory for some more breakdown.
[> [> [> Re: Not a disagreement.. good
points -- DEn,
08:35:09 11/06/02 Wed
Thanks--neither this nor my other post were
meant as flames.But my initial reaction to the ep was along
Rob's lines, and
today I'm seeing it as more "PROFOUND!"
[> [> [> [> Cool!! =D -- neaux,
08:40:07 11/06/02 Wed
[> I did what you suggested...but there's no arguing
about taste. --
Caroline, 11:27:35 11/06/02 Wed
I watched it again and was still
so distracted by the weird sound and visual editing and the
silly
inconsistencies in the plot (and usually I have no problem
with those) that I
really think this is just an average episode. When they made
a reference to a
past show - Witch, Band Candy, BBB, SB, WSWB, Innocence, etc
- I got it. I've
seen the DVDs and FX reruns so many times it's hard not to
get it. Lots of funny
lines and situations but ultimately not satifying. Got the
point about the
parallel between Spike and RJ, the meaning of the jacket,
how the differing
responses of each of the 4 women to their love for RJ said
about them etc. The
idea was a good one but it was not well executed. It was
wasn't good enough
especially following on from the excellence of Selfless.
The joke is on us -- Cactus Watcher, 04:48:39
11/06/02 Wed
My primary internet service is down so this waill be shorter
than it
deserves.
You loved silent Buffy. You loved Buffy the musical. Now we
have Buffy the classic theatric farce. It's too bad the
episode wasn't a hair
funnier on first viewing, because on second viewing as JBone
said earlier, it's
a scream. You have to smell something fishy when Rob hates a
Buffy!
Highlights - Dawn the drama queen. She goes through so many
soap
opera poses, you'd think they were going out of style.
Xander figures out
what's wrong almost before the episode starts.
The big fight starts the main
part of the show instead of ending it.
The other fight is a cat
fight.
Buffy, as usual, starts out trying to 'counsel' her way
through the
problem, fails and then goes out and tries to kill
something.
Willow doesn't
care what sex R.J. is, but decides to turn him into a woman
because that will
prove her love to him?
Anya expresses her love of him by expressing her love
of money.
[> SPOLIERS for HIM above! sorry! -- CW,
04:51:55 11/06/02 Wed
[> Re: didya notice... -- JBone, 07:26:01
11/06/02 Wed
This probably means nothing, but was last night the first
time since
Band Candy that we see Buffy drive? Just a thought while I
have a minute.
[> Re: The joke is on us, continued (spoilers for
Him) -- CW,
09:25:21 11/06/02 Wed
I really think this episode was about us
fans taking the show too seriously, our over analysis of
everything, our hanging
on every possible sexual relationship, even our concern
about Willow's sexual
orientation. I know part of the reason it took me two times
viewing to start
enjoying the jokes was that I kept expecting it to get
serious the first time I
watched.
More fuel for the flashback theories below.
Dawn's 'slut
dance' is a parody of Buffy dance in When She Was Bad, right
down to the grusome
music playing and bright lights instead of the sexy stuff
and dim lights in
WSWB.
How many times could Spike's words "Buffy, I'll go. This
can't
work." fit into last year our two? Who would have thought it
could be about
moving in with that other basement escapee?
[> [> That explains it! -- HumanTales,
13:41:40 11/06/02 Wed
I don't like farce. I enjoy most Buffy episodes (even the
"bad" ones),
but I spent a good part of this one with the TV on mute or
in the other room.
Now, I feel better.
[> [> Scarily enough, I've seen pretty much
everything in "Him" in a
fanfic at one time or another... -- Juliet, 18:17:24
11/06/02 Wed
[> [> Re: The joke is on us, continued (spoilers
for Him) -- Slain,
19:08:48 11/06/02 Wed
There's definitely a very strong
fan-referencing element in this episode - the coat, Willow's
up and down
sexuality is (is she straight, is she bi, oh, she's gay
after all! phew!),
Dawn's caricature of herself.
Oh! One more argument for my thesis in thread 10 things.
(Spoilage "Him") -- Deb, 04:56:47 11/06/02 Wed
Dawn: "Nobody ever expects the
Spanish Inquistion!" This alludes to Monty Python of course,
but in this case it
was an allusion to the film "Sliding Doors." To make a long
story short, it is a
verbal "password" where if the other person understands the
meaning (within this
context) they have found their soul mate. The fact that the
dude didn't know
what Dawn was talking about (her execution was lacking
admittedly) told the
audience that early on the guy was an enchantment, and not
the "Soul Mate" kinda
love.
Check out the movie if you haven't seen it.
[> And one more thing. Really. (Spoilage "Him") --
Deb, 06:05:17
11/06/02 Wed
"Sliding Doors" is a film about a young woman's two
"possible" lives hinging (or sliding in this case) upon
fate. The two storylines
evolve from whether or not she catches the subway. In one
version, she catches
it. In the other she misses it. It is also thematic
regarding how we perceive
our lives; that what is apparant could simply be window
dressing as an "ends",
and the real story, though not as pretty and full of
conflict, is the "means" to
a better "ends."
[> [> Sliding Doors and Cordy in "Birthday" --
Rahael, 06:19:08
11/06/02 Wed
Now you've reminded me why the plot of "Birthday"
struck a cord! Two different paths in life - but at the end,
a similar
conclusion, though one was more torturous than the
other..........
[> and also on Principal Wood -- ponygirl,
06:34:45 11/06/02
Wed
The Inquisition line was also another vaguely Knightish
association with Wood. We had the bastinada line in Lessons,
now he's said to be
holding Inquisitions. It's probably just a throwaway line,
but I've said it
before and I'll say it again -- I don't trust that guy! He
sure looked good in
this episode though...
[> [> He is much too civil to be a real
principal -- Deb,
08:33:45 11/06/02 Wed
So there probably is a great deal to what
you say. Probably has a chip in his head that will activate
his pure souless,
hysterical evil when the planets are aligned just so. He'll
be stopping all
students in the hallways and checking them for passes, and
when they don't have
passes, he will send them to the chip factory to mass
produce a generation of
uneducated, illiterate zombies.......or not. Sorry, I'm in a
good mood today.
The Northwest returned our sun!
[> [> [> Re: He is much too civil to be a real
principal --
ponygirl, 08:54:08 11/06/02 Wed
I know! And he's far too
well-dressed for a principal, with the earrings, and the
shirts, and the
shirtsleeves rolled up revealing the arms... sorry drifting,
heard some Summer
Place music for a moment. See? Don't trust him!
[> [> [> [> Alright. Let's keep our eyes on
him. He's just too
good to be real. -- Deb, 08:56:44 11/06/02 Wed
If [XXX] wrote Angel (humour, not spoilers) -- KdS,
06:05:34 11/06/02
Wed
M John Harrison - Cordy's visions would leave her
totally
unable to communicate except in mystic metaphors a la Dru.
The entire guest cast
would die in every episode, and each episode would end with
the AI crew arguing
whether they'd done what they were supposed to. Every
episode would climax with
Angel killing Holland in an entirely different manner and
situation, as in
South Park.
Michael Moorcock - Every episode would start
with Angel having a nightmare about a black sword that
wanted to make him eat
Buffy and Cordy. Cordy, Skip, Wes and Lilah would be
secretly plotting to
destroy Wolfram & Hart and then knock off the PTB as
well. Everybody would
be portal hopping at the drop of a hat. Lorne would play
electric blues guitar
instead of lounge singing. Other than that, identical.
Terry
Goodkind - Every episode would end with Cordy locking
herself and Angel in a
bedroom and shooting him full of MDMA for some seriously
twisted
comshukking.
Anybody else got ideas?
[> Re: If [XXX] wrote Angel (humour, not spoilers)
-- pr10n,
07:09:23 11/06/02 Wed
JRR Tolkien -- We'd need four more
characters, for starters. And more poetry, about ancient
vamps and slayers and
the nobility of their wars. Gunn would keep track of the
heads he lops with that
ax of his. Fred would accidently embibe the waters of a
mystical tree and grow
to the... what's that? She already is the size of Bullroarer
Took? Wesley =
Gandalf, Angel = Aragorn, Cordelia = Legolas, and sorry, but
I think Connor is
Boromir. Bring on some Glory minions for hobbit fodder!
Changing Rooms: Questions on who's living where, and why
(spoilers S7) -- yez, 07:22:42 11/06/02 Wed
I was thinking about how there seems
to be a lot of moving boxes in these S7 eps. Maybe somebody
has already done
some symbolic analysis of it. I'm still just trying to get
the facts straight
before trying to make sense of it.
In Lessons, we see that Spike has
moved into the Sunnydale High basement. "Moved into" might
be wrong -- I guess
he's just living there. I think people have pointed out the
connections with the
id, etc.
Selfless opens at the Summers House with the gang amid
boxes,
presumably helping Willow settle back in. So am I right in
thinking that over
the summer Buffy packed up Willow's stuff and switched rooms
with her? Something
gave me the impression that Buffy had taken over her Mom's
room. Can anyone
confirm this? If this is true, I thought it was a little odd
that Buffy would
want to move into a room where a good friend has recently
been killed. On the
other hand, if she did it to spare Willow the pain of having
her live in a room
where her lover was killed, that's very touching. I was
always uncomfortable
with the idea that Willow and Tara had moved into Joyce's
room -- the master
bedroom -- after Buffy's death, though I can understand the
desire to preserve
Buffy's room as is, especially since they were planning on
bringing her back.
Anyway, there's the obvious connection with Buffy now being
serious about taking
on the "mom" role -- the caretaker, the person in charge,
etc.
Now Him
opens with Spike being moved into Xander's apt., and we also
see Buffy rescuing
Anya amid boxes, presumably packing boxes. I didn't notice
those boxes in
Selfless when Willow storms in on Anya and Halfrek, but
maybe I missed them. If
they weren't there, then are we supposed to assume that Anya
was planning on
leaving Sunnydale before Buffy pulled her back "into the
[Scoobie] fold"? So,
what, Anya was going to go off in search for her identity --
to get away from a
group of people that she felt she was just adapting to and
not able to be
herself with? And Buffy brings her back in? Hopefully, she
will still have
emotional room to figure herself out without the roar of
Buffy's personality and
mission.
And Spike -- are we supposed to just forget the fact that
Clem
was supposedly living in Spike's bachelor crypt to hold it
for him for the sake
of pairing up Xander and Spike again? Are we supposed to
assume that either Clem
screwed up and lost the space or is now refusing to give it
back to Spike? And
that Spike is too messed up right now to take it back? I
found it odd that this
was never referenced -- it's kind of sloppy. Or did I just
miss it?
And
Spike and Xander -- this is a circle back to Hush when Giles
pawns Spike off on
Xander and they are uneasy roommates for the first time. So
is this a step back
for Xander from "grown up" (working guy with live-in
girlfriend)?
So,
does anyone have any answers or thoughts on this?
yez
[> Re: Changing Rooms: Questions on who's living
where, and why (spoilers
S7) -- Vickie, 07:31:22 11/06/02 Wed
Maybe the Scoobies just
think "people with souls don't live in crypts"?
[> [> Re: Changing Rooms: Questions on who's living
where, and why
(spoilers S7) -- Sablehart, 07:44:35 11/06/02 Wed
Or perhaps
they want to keep an eye on Spike for a while, now that he's
slightly nuts.
[> [> I'm with you on this one -- Deb,
08:53:48 11/06/02 Wed
The crypt is just not an option anymore for Spike, though I
must say I
miss Clem.
Is Xander taking a step backward? No. He's actually taking a
few steps forward in my book.
As for boxes. There have always been a lot
of boxes because everyone keeps moving around like regular
college students,
etc. Do they have some kind of symbolic significance?
Pandora's box? Beginning
over?
What I want to know is where Spike's wardrobe is. It's not
like he
ever travels with luggage. Leaving wet towels on the
bathroom floor in
comforting. I was concerned that they would turn him into
sometype of compulsive
neat freak. I can see it now: "The Odd Couple"
[> [> [> Re: I'm with you on this one --
Pilgrim, 09:28:38
11/06/02 Wed
I thought last year that Spike was awfully neat,
especially for a rebellious, eternal-adolescent, id-type
vamp. His bed was
always made, no clothes strewn around the floor, candles
neatly placed, no books
piled around (we see him reading at least once, so there
must be books
somewhere), no cig butts overflowing ashtrays, no empty
liquor bottles by the
door. Except when he and Buffy were in the throws of
passion, when the
orderliness was messed--but his crypt was always neat again
next time we see it.
Wet towels on the bathroom floor sounds more like Xander to
me.
[> [> [> [> Xander was projecting his evil
upon Spike. Agree.
-- Deb, 10:09:29 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> I'm not -- Sometime Lurker,
10:31:28 11/06/02
Wed
It is Xander's house. Spike can't do the entirely mean or
evil
thing anymore on account of the raging guilt, but he sure as
hell can drop a few
wet towels on the floor and do that impish Spike-smirk while
he watches Xander
get fustrated and pick them up.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not -- Sarand,
12:03:00 11/06/02
Wed
And I would love to see that scene. (And I mean Xander
picking
up wet towels while Spike, fully dressed, smirks, not Spike
dropping the wet
towels).
[> [> [> [> [> [> Disagree --
alcibiades, 12:17:31
11/06/02 Wed
Except that in this episode, Spike's personality was
totally deconstructed to the point where he is an empty
shell taking order from
Xander, and keeping in eye contact approval with him, for
just about every move
he makes.
It is completely out of character the way this episode
presents Spike now for him to be doing the annoying and
smirking routine. He's
way too deconstructed and vulnerable. He can't even bare for
the angels to see
him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Disagree -- Sarand,
15:35:48 11/06/02 Wed
Oh, I wasn't saying that he would have been
smirking now. I agree that it would be completely out of
character for how he
was portrayed in the episode. I was just expressing a wish
that he could get
some of that attitude back in the future.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Disagree -- JM, 16:15:03
11/06/02 Wed
He probably did it out of abscent mindedness. I doubt
he's really focused on the external. But Xander probably
thought he was being
passive aggressive, because that was how he acted last time
they were
roomies.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, I DO want to
see the one where he
drops the towels -- luna, 17:37:57 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Such an honest
person to admit to
"sweaty naughty" thoughts...:):):):) -- Rufus,
21:17:13 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> Re: Changing Rooms: Questions on who's living
where, and why
(spoilers S7) -- JBone, 10:03:28 11/06/02 Wed
Spike's almost
a newborn with a soul, and mom and dad (Xander and Buffy)
are finally bringing
the little bloodsucker home from the hellmouth nursery.
[> Re: Changing Rooms: Questions on who's living
where, and why (spoilers
S7) -- Sophie, 08:53:25 11/06/02 Wed
I've been wonderin'
where Willow was moving to myself. I assumed that she left
her stuff at buffy's.
Hmmmm.... If Buffy is moving into her mom's room, it may be
symbolic of her
becoming Mom?
S
[> [> I think so. -- Deb, 09:05:45 11/06/02
Wed
SMG
said on "The View" that Buffy was living the life of a
single parent now. Slayer
and single parent: Extra-Strengh, Superduper, Superhero! It
is rather disturbing
to me though that she can keep such a clean house.
[> Cryptless -- yez, 12:46:36 11/06/02 Wed
Well, I
guess I can see the merits of mainstreaming Spike --
integrating him further
into a "normal" human life by having him room with a human
instead of live in a
crypt. But I still wish we would've been privy to more of
that discussion, even
just a mention of the crypt being no good for the soul or
somesuch.
And
while Xander does express his opposition to the idea, it's
still hard to believe
that he would go along with it at all, seeing as how he
recently tried to kill
Spike for sleeping with Anya.
As for Willow's move, like Buffy moving
into the master bedroom and becoming the mother, we get
Willow relegated to
daughter status, maybe -- another "child" that Buffy needs
to look out
for.
I really wish they would make reference to Willow paying
rent or
something. One, it would help explain how the hell Buffy
affords that house, and
two, it would dispel that freeloader taint.
On a side note, something of
another room change has been the library being replaced by
the laptop -- even
after the actual school library left the building, so to
speak, we had Giles'
collection and then the collection at The Magic Box. Now, it
seems they're
always just online. And we know how unrealiable THOSE
sources can be...
;)
I'd like to see an ep. where they start trying to track down
some
demon they read about online and it turns out it was just
part of one of those
trivia lists people fake and mail to see how many times
it'll come back to
them.
yez
[> [> Perhaps his crypt is now completely overrun
with kittens? --
leslie,
13:34:50 11/06/02
Wed
[> [> [> You think Clem is on a diet? --
Sophist, 13:41:39
11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Well, he was gone during prime
kitten-producing
season. They get out of hand quickly. -- leslie,
14:48:36 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> Leslie.....we all know that
Clem DOES
NOT!!!!!!! eat Kittens...bad girl....;) --
Rufus....channeling dub,
17:06:05 11/06/02 Wed
When did D'Hoffryn turn into Tony Soprano? -- cjl,
08:55:20 11/06/02
Wed
Sending a minion back to Sunnydale to "whack" Anya, after
that
whole speech in "Selfless" about "never go for the kill when
you can go for the
pain"? What a creep.
He slips yet another three rungs on my ladder of
estimation. Funny thing is, I used to really like D'Hoffryn,
especially during
"Something Blue" and "Hell's Bells." Oh, sure, I knew he was
a pimp, but he
seemed to be a fair and somewhat honorable businessman, and
I thought he
actually had some affection for his vengeance 'hos.
Then he parbroils
Halfrek. (Before we could find out if she really was Cecily
or not, dammit!) And
now this.
He really is just a sleazy demon pimp. I hope Buffy or
Willow
or Anya take him out later this season. (Or at least do some
damage to his
horns...)
[> Maybe he didn't -- alcibiades, 12:30:14
11/06/02 Wed
You did notice that the demon doesn't talk during that scene
-- he's too
busy trying to kill the slayer -- it's as though Anya is
providing both sides of
the dialogue.
So we only know that D'Hoffryn tried to kill "Anyaka" with
this demon because of her convenient monologue while Buffy
is fighting.
Hmmm.
Seems like a bizarre choice for D'Hoffryn to make.
So if Buffy choose to impress RJ with her killing skills
because she is
so good at it, and Willow choose to her her magic skills to
turn RJ into a girl
because she is so good at magic, then why did Anya turn bank
robber for the
first time EVER to impress RJ?
I'm kind of wondering if the demon we see
in the beginning wasn't a demon Anya summoned to help her
figure out who she is
now -- and if one possibility she was trying on wasn't bank
robber. She tells
Buffy she is an excellent strategist. But that is a rather
unexplored aspect of
her personality to date.
Anya does have all those boxes lying around her
apartment -- reminds me a bit of all those new toys the trio
acquired last year
after the heist with the M'Fashnik demon.
OTOH, for a completely
different explanation of the boxes, in STB and
Supersymmetry, Cordelia's "room"
is filled with packed boxes. This is a symbol for her
amnesiac condition -- she
can't unpack her personality, or she can only unpack it to a
certain extent,
little by little. But the major stuff is still boxed up and
hidden in boxes.
So, here too, Anya doesn't know who she is -- she's
experimenting -- and
her apt is partially boxed up too, because she doesn't know
what is the real
Anya. It's interesting though, that she kept the huge
triange symbol on the
wall.
[> [> Anya's boxes -- yez, 13:12:48 11/06/02
Wed
I
agree it seemed a odd choice for D'Hoffryn.
I'd assumed Anya's boxes
signalled that she was packing to move, possibly to go "find
herself." I just
remembered, though -- or think I remember -- that wasn't
Anya carrying a box out
of The Magic Box (har-har) when Willow approaches her
looking for Buffy and
Xander in STSP? Your comment about the dastardly trio's
boxes brought that up
for me. If that memory is correct, then maybe Anya's been
moving undamaged
inventory out of the shop (and into her apt.). Though... I
think we get a shot
of Anya's apt. in Selfless, I don't remember any boxes.
yez
[> Definitely not Cecily . . . -- d'Herblay,
16:26:23 11/06/02
Wed
I was surprised when Halfrek was immolated without any
explication of the "William?" remark in "Older and Farther
Away," and, in fact,
had just a week before stated that I thought there would
soon be an admission by
Halfrek that she had been Cecily. However, with the benefit
of 20/20 hindsight,
I can now categorically state that Cecily and Halfrek were
not the same person.
Being out of town during the original airing, I had missed
the significance of
Halfrek's "Listen, Anya. I know I've always been a little
competitive with you,
I mean, there was that thing in the Crimean War, we laugh
about it now . . . "
The Crimean War ended in 1856; Cecily was still Cecily in
1880. Therefore,
making the assumption that Halfrek wasn't pretending to be a
human in 1880, and
with the assurance that Mutant Enemy always
scrupulously strives for
historical accuracy, I can assure you that Halfrek was never
Cecily. (Ok, that's
a slight assumption and a slightly misplaced assurance . . .
)
[> Actually, your desire has to be phrased as a
"Wish".......:):) --
Rufus, 21:20:02 11/06/02 Wed
I believe that the First Virture
should be able to multi-task....or is that sub-
contract..;)
[> Fool for Love Commentry -- Rahael, shamelessly
plugging herself,
04:32:04 11/07/02 Thu
In the above, which I transcribed last
week, Petrie commented that the writers have no clue how
Cecily became
Halfrek!
Why I enjoy watching Buffy (spoilage of HIM) -- Deb,
10:05:15 11/06/02
Wed
in 500 words or less:
When they say things, I remember
other things. When they do something, I see something else
in my head. For every
action, and speech is an action (Burke), I have an equal and
totally off the
wall association that associates with something else, etc.
etc. All the
allusions keep my mind jumping like a bag of popcorn. Then
by the end of the
show, I have constructed an entirely new version of the
episode with many
strange "bedfellows." The best allusion last night:
"No one ever expects
the Spanish Inquisition."
1. Monty Python
Gypsy Song
"When I was young
my family was so poor we lived in a shoebox in the middle of
the
road."
British comedy
Joan and Randy
Who would name their kid Randy
these days?
My sister-in-law
Thanksgiving Day in Hell
November
Sweeps
All new Buffy episodes.
Him
"No one ever expects the Spanish
Inquisition!"
2. "Sliding Doors" -- film
The
Soul
Fate
subways
basements
closets
need to do something with my
hair
Buffy, Willow and Dawn all have Bette Davis hair
Does Gwyneth P. have
Bette Davis hair too?
Is Bette Davis hair the new Gwyneth Parthlow
hair?
Why can't I spell GP's name correctly?
Why can't I spell
period?
My thesis is driving me crazy.
I hear a little voice inside my
head telling me to work on my thesis.
Is Spike still crazy or merely
emotionally stifled?
Can Spike sleep at night or day?
I wish I could get
five straight hours of sleep.
Maybe I should get a clock so I know when to go
to bed.
Is Spike sleeping in the closet?
Strange roommates
3.
Columbus Day
What a joke celebrating Columbus Day
is.
Crusades
Evil
wet towels
s/m
closets
That's probably
enough to demonstrate the concept.
Could have been the name of the ep. (or at
least the name of the ep. I reconstructed in my head.)
Hating "Him" -- Spike Lover, 11:15:47 11/06/02
Wed
It was
a farce. Well- that explains everything -I guess.
I hated it
also, but for different reasons of course.
Some neutral
comments:
1)Buffy has the 'Joyce' hair again. -Ick.
2)At the
Bronze, Dawn had 'Faith' hair? By the way, how come Dawn
never mentions Faith?
Was that not programed into her memories as
well?
Inconsistencies:
1)WHY would X allow Spike to move in? The
last time they were even in close proximity for more than a
minute was when he
was trying to kill Spike for doing his X- Anya.
2) Why not have Spike
move in w/ Anya? (You could have a sort of Will and Grace
thing go
on.)
3)Why can't he go back to his old crypt? Or room w/ his
friend,
Clem? Clemency might be exactly what Spike needs right
now.
4)Last week,
Buffy is trying to kill Anya, and now she suddenly calls her
a 'friend'. You
have got to be kidding me.
5)As already mentioned, WHY is D'Hoffryn
trying to suddenly kill Anya?
NOW FOR THE ABSOLUTE HATE. PREPARE
YOURSELF.
1) Buffy the Slut.
2) Dawn, lacking in moral fiber, and the
embarrassing goofus. (I think I will try out for cheerleader
without
practising.)
3) Buffy the ineffectual parent.
4) X the wise, father
figure.
Buffy the Slut.
A) I suppose that Hollywood just loves to make
fun of the real world or something. It bothers me that this
show, which we are
suppose to take routinely seriously pokes fun at something
so serious. I am not
sure if there is any other job in America where the
employees are under more
strenuous scrutiny than in the school environment. A couple
of weeks ago, Buffy
barges into a parent's home and basically accuses the
alcohic father of being a
risk to his daughter. This week, BUFFY IS TRYING TO SEDUCE A
STUDENT.
She
would quickly find herself unemployed and possibly headed
for jail. So much for
my suspension of disbelief.
It is one thing if Ginny Calendar wants to
take a bite out of Xander. (It NEVER got that far.)
B) Buffy actively
pursues a guy her sister claims she loves. (Boy, this struck
a nerve with me. I
did not think it was funny at all.)
DAWN, LACKER OF ANY MORAL
FIBER
A) The liar. Why take her word for anything? Of course,
Buffy is a
liar too.
B) Pushing someone down the stairs? Is this the start of
evil?
I mean, the shop lifting stuff started out small too, didn't
it.
ONE
SAVING GRACE
I finally did laugh, when Buffy had the Bazooka outside the
principle's office and they showed Spike wrestling her to
get it. By the way, is
it not Federal law that you can not have any sort of weapon
on school
property?
Ok, I am ready. Rip it to shreds.
[> Uhm... they were under a spell. That's why they did
those things.
-- Apophis, 13:42:23 11/06/02 Wed
[> Re: Not hating "Him" at all (Spoilers for 7.06)
-- grifter,
14:12:59 11/06/02 Wed
"Inconsistencies:"
1. Xander DID
seem quite reluctant to let Spike stay with him. But Buffy
can be quite
convincing I guess, and the guy would do anything for her.
Also, maybe he
figured that this way he could keep an eye on Spike.
2. Anya? Nah, the
two ex-evils wouldn´t be good for each other. Plus they
slept together recently,
so it would probably piss Xander off majorly.
3. I think Buffy doesn´t
want Spike to be alone, that´s why he´s not going back to
his crypt (and his
former "life"). As for Clem, that would be a good idea I
guess, but he doesn´t
seem to be around anymore...
4. Last week, Anya was killing innocents by
the dozens. Then she was ready to sacrifice herself to bring
them back. With
that she has redeemed herself to Buffy, and she can let her
back into the
group.
5. No idea, really. It will be explained eventually, I
hope.
"NOW FOR THE ABSOLUTE HATE. PREPARE YOURSELF."
1. What show
have you been watching? She was under a love spell!
2. Love
Spell!
3. Love Spell!
4. Love Spe...no, wait, what did you mean
with that?
[> [> Re: Not hating "Him" at all (Spoilers for
7.06) -- JM,
16:07:48 11/06/02 Wed
I also imagine that no one is particularly
comfortable with the idea of Spike staying with a human
woman. Buffy does think
that it was a big deal that he understood the assault was a
big, bad deal and
that the fact he has a soul means something important. But
it's still giving her
a lot of uncomfortable moments. But at the same time, she
wants someone to look
after and take care of him. I thought it was a remarkably
thoughtful, if awkward
solution.
And kind of in line with how she approached Anya. She feels
like it's important right now that she take care of all of
her friends, even the
ones she doesn't always like. She was sad about having to
kill Anya, and not
just for Xander's sake. Killing Anya was all about her being
demony, probably
soulless, and pretty dangerous. And not making an Angel-
league mistake again. I
bet she was pretty releived that she didn't have to
ultimately do it. This week
she finally decided to do for her two re-soulees what she
did for Angel
immediately out of love.
I kind of liked that the sister's vibe survived
the love spell. It informed their jealousy and was also an
undercurrent to the
attempts to relate. Dawn still focused on feeling betrayed
because she trusted
and admired Buffy, and Buffy was concerned about Dawn's pain
and delusions. And
would have picked her over RJ in the end.
[> Did you like any of the episodes this season? -
- Robert,
16:42:45 11/06/02 Wed
[> Sorry, SL, I'd be wasting my time. -- Rufus,
17:11:42 11/06/02
Wed
[> Loving "Her", so it all balances -- Cleanthes,
20:52:19 11/06/02
Wed
significant spike observation?..."HIM" spoilers and
spec -- Adrianna,
12:02:36 11/06/02
Wed
Hi all,
I was surprised to see no one else here
mentioned this, so maybe I am just making something of
nothing, but....Spike had
a reflection last night. A great big honkin' obvious one -
twice!
The
first one is in the glass of Lance and RJ's pictures at
their house, and the
second one is in the storefront window just before Spike and
Xander grab the
jacket from RJ.
At first I thought it was just sloppiness on the
editors' part (or maybe on the director's part, staging them
in front of a large
glass plate), but then I figured not even the ME people
("Gee, DB's standing in
an awful lot of sun there, d'you think we should pull the
blinds down a little
more?" "Nah, who'll notice?") would be that sloppy.
My other reason for
thinking it was purposeful was the amount of time spent on
"spike needs an
invitation in" at Xander's apartment.
So, am I nuts, or does anyone else
think this means something? Like maybe Spike last night
wasn't really Spike, but
was the shape-shifting basement monster? (would explain lack
of quips n'
insanity) Or something else?
[> Wow -- totally missed that. Thanks. -- yez,
12:27:55 11/06/02
Wed
[> I saw that too.. but I assumed it was a lack of
funds for post
editing -- neaux, 12:47:11 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> You're probably right...(NT) -- Adrianna,
12:57:40
11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> Re: You're probably right...(NT) --
Cougar, 13:50:20
11/06/02 Wed
When Dawn leaves the principals ofice she leaves her
bag on the chair, but is shown a moment later in the hall,
carrying it. So
perhaps the reflections were also overlooked.
[> Re: significant spike observation?..."HIM" spoilers
and spec --
Wisewoman, 13:30:40 11/06/02 Wed
I dunno, I think you might be on
to something there...I noticed that too.
[> Even if not a post-production SNAFU, it's Spike all
right -- Steve,
14:00:34 11/06/02 Wed
Who else would carefully turn the little
angels around, or roll his eyes at the mention of amateur
poetry? Or even leave
wet towels on the floor?
[> It was intentional at least with the plate glass
window. -- Deb,
16:38:53 11/06/02 Wed
According to folklore, a soul casts the
shadow. Did you notice what was in the store behind them?
Televisions, many,
many, many viewing screens. This is why I came up with a
silly, silly, silly
association with Batman and Robin, which was re-enforced
when, after mugging the
dude of his jacket, they ran toward backstage in the same
pose that Batman and
Robin were seen in often during the 60s campy version.
Back to
reflection. The reflection could mean what you think is
means, but it also could
be an allusion that reflects the tone of the scene. It also
could reinforce the
fact that Spike/William is a "good" guy now, and his teaming
up with Xander, who
has no magical power, was an adventure in the direct, non-
tech., non-magic, male
method of directly dealing with a problem with common sense,
which is something
Spike will need to learn. In this case we have Robin
mentoring Batman (who's a
big sczitzed himself.) It simply self-reference itself for
that matter.
[> [> But what about Angel? -- yez, 11:07:28
11/07/02 Thu
"According to folklore, a soul casts the shadow. "
If this is
what they're going for (assuming the reflection was
deliberate), then wouldn't
Angel have a reflection, too? Just a couple of eps. ago, the
lack of reflection
was brought up pointedly as he snuck up behind someone who
was looking at their
own reflection.
yez
[> Same thing happened in Beneath You --
oboemaboe, 21:38:32
11/06/02 Wed
when he's stalking the rat.
[> he had one in Beneath you..."HIM" spoilers and
spec -- luvthistle1,
00:32:55 11/07/02 Thu
When Spike is in the basement in the
beginning of Beneath You you can clearly see his reflection
in a piece of glass
for like at least 5 seconds. it's his whole body. I do not
think those are
mistake. They had went through to many season with only
making that mistake one,
in season 2 with Angel. But you have never seen that mistake
again. They have a
bigger budget to fix it. So why would they make the mistake
3 times?
[> [> He had one in OAFA also -- Etrangere,
05:13:50 11/07/02
Thu
They can be sloppy you know.
[> Re: significant spike observation?..."HIM" spoilers
and spec --
Isabel, 17:14:10 11/07/02 Thu
Hmm, maybe? But since we all know
Spike and Angel have both had accidental reflections in the
past, I recommend
not reading too much into it. 1977-Really EEEVIL Spike in
the subway had a
reflection, if you looked carefully.
Now, if we hear Xander exclaim one
morning, "Evil Dead! You've got a reflection!" Then we've
got something.
Odd thing about the title of 7.6 -- Sophist,
12:21:47 11/06/02 Wed
In the LA Times, the title was "Hunk", not "Him". Anyone
know why the
title change?
[> Well, maybe -- HonorH, 13:06:36 11/06/02
Wed
TPTB
simply wanted to give a nod to the classic AtS episode
"She".
Hey! Stop
throwing things at me!
[> [> I wondered -- Arethusa, 13:27:34
11/06/02 Wed
if it was a nod to H. Rider Haggard's "She."
[> Re: Odd thing about the title of 7.6 -- Darby,
15:17:24 11/06/02
Wed
Was "Hunk" too close to Lilah's "Hulk smash!" comment in
Supersymmetry?
Would Lilah really make a "Hulk smash!"
reference??
[> Re: Odd thing about the title of 7.6 -- leslie,
16:11:54 11/06/02 Wed
You're trusting the LA Times tv guide? As far as I can tell,
a) they've
fired all their fact checkers, and b) you now have to *fail*
the spelling test
in order to get hired there.
"Him": The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (The
Truly Irresistable One),
13:04:49 11/06/02 Wed
If you came in here not expecting spoilers,
you're even dumber than the average denizen of this board,
so don't whine to me.
See a K'v'Lagnath demon about a brain transplant.
Well, I've mixed
feelings on this one. There were good things, there were bad
things, and I'm not
sure which outweighed which. But, as usual, we must have our
priorities.
Therefore:
Fashion Statements
The
Good
Precious little in this episode, I'm afraid. We did have the
lovely
Principal Wood, and I've yet to see him in something
unflattering. I've also yet
to see him shirtless, which does leave me feeling somewhat
unsatisfied, but we
can work around that.
Xander was unusually good this week, however. The
dark shirts really quite flatter him, and the turtlenecks
reduce the Puffy
Xander look somewhat.
The Bad
Where to start? What possessed
the costuming director this week?
Buffy--not one, but two white Granny
Blouses this week. What in hell's name is that about? Is she
dipping into Anya's
wardrobe?
Topping that off, though, was her Catholic schoolgirl getup.
What, she's channeling Darla now? Right down to the
bangs!
What *was*
that eating Willow's top half? Sort of brown and see-through
and glittery--if I
didn't know better, I'd say a Bog Demon had smeared itself
all over her
torso.
RJ and his stupid letter jacket. I hate those things. They
bring
back unpleasant memories of the time when--through no fault
of my own, mind
you--I teleported smack into the middle of a high school pep
rally.
Yeek!
The Iffy
Anya's wardrobe was thoroughly unremarkable.
This could be a good thing.
Dawn. She was certainly all over the board
this week, wasn't she? The autumn-leaves camo shirt she wore
in the opening
scene was certainly bad. Her next shirt, the dark fluttery
one, was a great
improvement. Then there was her channeling-Faith slutwear,
which she admittedly
looked hot in. And finally, the beige--honey, it's just not
your color. One
final word to the makeup person: stop giving her peach and
coral lipstick. The
girl needs something in a cool palette.
Plot in a
Nutshell
High school boy has enchanted jacket. Girls go ape over him,
leading to lovely things like assault, betrayal, murder, and
suicide. Then
Xander has to go and interfere.
Demonic Quibbles and
Comments
*Sigh* Sadly few this week. There was the very
authentic-looking Keplac assassin demon D'Hoffryn sent after
Anya, and I more
than suspect the doe-eyed hanger-on of RJ's was played by a
Weft, but other than
that, nothing. Except that Willow was right: Spellus
Interruptus really does
irritate Hecate.
Highlights
Seeing Buffy and Dawn
finally act like real sisters. There were the unfortunate
smooshy scenes at the
beginning and end, but other than that, the whole episode
rang with true
sisterhood--screaming matches, subtle and blatant betrayals,
the calculated
stripping away of dignity and hope. Brings back so many
memories of Beltane
feasts with my family. *Sigh!*
Xander and Spike forced to live and work
together. I can think of no finer punishment for the both of
them.
The
logistics of a gay woman getting caught in a boy's love
spell. You know, it
would have served that boy right if Willow had completed her
spell to turn him
into a girl.
Dawn experiencing the true, brutal torture and calculated
humiliation that is high school. I'm so glad they aren't
letting the Twerp off
easy.
Willow to Anya: "You'd kill for a chocolate bar!" Well, who
wouldn't, honey?
Dawn shoving the boy down the stairs. Moments like that
make me think she really does have potential.
Spike keeping Buffy from
killing the principal. Pretty men don't grow on trees, you
know.
Xander
and Spike stealing the Jacket. It made me
laugh.
Lowlights
Sisterly bonding. Bleah.
Buffy
showing concern for both Spike and Anya. Double bleah.
Xander saving the
day. Triple bleah.
Buffy's wardrobe. Bleah to the nth power.
The
drawn-out train sequence. What, they had time to kill? It
was
stupid!
The Immoral of the Story
High school boys are
the worst kind of evil and should be avoided at all costs,
even by demons.
Unless you're killing them, in which case, go right
ahead.
Overall
Rating
As I said before, I've mixed feelings on this one.
Therefore,
it'll be a kumquat in purple over 9 on the Non Sequitur
Scale.
(Disclaimer: HonorH disavows any responsibility for the
above
views.)
[> Re: "Him": The Super-Evil Review (spoils yada
yada) -- Sophomorica,
sucking on a purple lollipop, 13:31:25 11/06/02 Wed
Topping
that off, though, was her Catholic schoolgirl getup. What,
she's channeling
Darla now? Right down to the bangs!
That's exactly what I thought!
Buffy under RJ's spell reminded me of Darla. Except Buffy
immediately went for
the kill, er, tried to go all the way. Darla would have used
the guy for her
ultimate gain and led him into thinking he was going to get
some, but give him
none. I guess that's the downside of having a soul.
[> [> being all soul-having... -- Le Fey,
10:58:59 11/07/02
Thu
"I guess that's the downside of having a soul."
Yes, and
I found it simply delicious of our boy Drew Greenburg to
have those disgusting
"Scoobies" virtually ignore Spike's soul. Serves the little
peroxided twerp
right for thinking anyone would care. Ha!
[> Please to offer Your Advice, oh Fashion-Victim-
Eater -- pr10n,
14:00:47 11/06/02 Wed
[start obsequious fawning]
In my
limited and mortal experience I have assumed that a man's
tie must at least
reach his belt buckle to not look doofy, yet Principal Wood
(may he never shave
or at least not his face) consistently wears his tie so it
hangs to about his
(taut) abdomen.
[toady toady] I bet I missed an announcement about tie
length somewhere, but I'm certain that Your Graceful
Yumminess will know the
truth. Or perhaps one of Your minions might know, and
contribute to this poor
business casual dresser's sad life?
[end obsequious fawning, for now]
[> [> Stepping in for the fashion victim
eater... -- Devilish, who
never tires of mocking a poorly dressed mortal, 21:14:44
11/06/02 Wed
as She-Who-Eats-the-Haplessly-Dressed seems to have had her
fill for the
evening (Those calories do add up. And she ain't getting any
younger and you
know what that does to the old metabolism.)
If you prefer to stick
to the Fashion 101 rules, yes your tie should ideally reach
your belt buckle.
Now for all you rebels out there (and you know who you are,
rabble-rousers, you)
it can be shorter, it's all in the attitude. Principal
Hottie has the 'tude, not
to mention the body, to carry it off. But for Gracknar's
sake, whatever you do,
don't have your tie extend too far past the belt buckle.
You'll look like you're
wearing your Daddy's tie and are playing Dress-Up. Unless,
of course the
situation calls for it and if it does then much luck to you
.
[> [> [> Watch. Yourself. -- Honorificus
(The Unaging and
Eternal), 22:15:05 11/06/02 Wed
For your information, I haven't
gained a single pound since 1820, and I lost those very
quickly. It's not like
that party of nabobs was missed, anyway, and I was in
heat.
However, you
do happen to be correct about the tie thing. Principal Wood
can wear his that
way simply because it looks frankly fabulous on him, like
everything else he's
worn. One should never be confined by fashion rules,
especially when one is male
and a hottie. A little rebellion is a good thing.
Particularly when it
emphasizes one's taut, muscular tummy.
[> [> [> [> Weeping for joy at the brief
attention. Indeed,
molting! Thanks. -- pr10n, 22:27:47 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Re: Tie length -- Brian,
06:07:09 11/07/02
Thu
I was taught that a correctly tied tie has the two ends as
close
to each other as possible, and let those tips fall where
they may.
[> [> [> [> [> Agreed -- Spry-(for a
corpse)-kovsky,
03:08:57 11/08/02 Fri
True.
But preferably with the tie
tied so tightly around the neck that it does unmendable
damage to the trachea.
Haven't had as mellow a high after a killing as my infamous
Tie Deaths of 1971.
Death by strangulation can seem so easy- but it's one of the
classics
[> The Inescapable Torture of Love and other happy
thoughts -- The
Unclean (back from vacation), 14:02:40 11/06/02 Wed
I have
finally returned to my hive after an unexpectedly extended
vacation at my
mother-in-law's pit of horrors, where I was consistently
berated for my low kill
ratio, my failure to elevate myself in the Priesthood of
Belial, and the lack of
hatchlings for the ghastly, withered creature to feed upon.
It was sometime
during the second week, when I wistfully looked out at the
bubbling pool of
sulfur just beyond her living room window, and wondered: how
in the name of all
that's unholy did I get into this mess?
Love, as the Slayer and her
fellow miscreants like to say, makes you do the wacky.
It was somewhat
comforting for me to watch the latest episode of the
Slayer's adventures and
realize that Love Is Pain is the working model for sentient
creatures throughout
the multiverse, including the infernal Scooby Gang. No
matter how much they
profess to be paragons of morality and desire to do "good,"
the primal urges and
desires that fire all creatures, demon and human, drive them
to acts of madness
they cannot possibly justify to themselves. And yes, Dawn-
whelp--eventually, you
will be driven to further acts of hormone-crazed insanity,
and there will no
spell upon which to shift the blame.
(Excuse me--evil, maniacal laughter
coming through...)
Mwhahahahahahahaha.....
The most splendid
Honorificus covered most of the irritants in the episode,
but I was especially
annoyed by the relative even-headedness of the Harris boy,
who showed an
uncommon resistance to the temptations of magic this
episode. I'm waiting for
him to commit his annual screw-up, but it's been six
episodes and he's been
disgustingly noble and mature all the way through. I'm
concerned, to say the
least.
I was cheered by the ghastly foreshadowings of next week's
episode, and the portents of dark evil descending over
Sunnydale in the weeks to
come. However, I'll be spending the rest of the week
unpacking, as my mate
decided to do "a little shopping" during vacation.
(What I wouldn't do
for one of D'Hoffryn's assassins right now...)
[> [> *So* very glad to have you back, dearest!
-- Honorificus (The
Single-and-Happy One), 23:05:14 11/06/02 Wed
Your mate's
matriarch sounds like a horror indeed. It reminds me of why
I've never married
(or the like). The one time I came even close, I discovered
that my Preferred
One's primary mother was a harpy, and his secondary mother
was a half-breed
gargoyle with a foul temper. I told him not to get his tail
caught in the door
when he left.
But I digress. Wonderful thoughts! Yes, indeed, I am
looking forward to the day when the Twerp discovers the true
horrors of love on
the Hellmouth, as her sister and friends have time and
again. It should prove to
be a wonderful distraction for the Slayer.
As for Xander--you and I are
quite in the same circle on that being. I find it absolutely
disgusting, the way
that boy has turned from being a relatively-inocuous
irritant to a serious
threat. And he's only a mortal! What kind of message does
this send? Personally,
I'm outraged, and I'd write a poisonous (literally) letter
to the Joss Being,
but he apparently has *protection*. My first two certainly
didn't help matters
any. I'd swear he takes them as encouragement.
Oh, and dear, I do know
where you can engage assassin demons of all kinds. What
method do you prefer?
Immolation? Evisceration? Defenestration?
[> [> [> The demon Talks Big, but he'll never go
through with
it.. -- cjl (a friend of the family), 07:02:48
11/07/02 Thu
You have to understand the kind of pressure my demon-brother
is under:
he can't get anywhere in the Priesthood because he won't
suck up to the
Heresiarchs (who are in it for the Perks, and not the
carnage), and that's
keeping his kill count low. (How can you rack up victims
when the High Priests
are scheduling keggers every weekend?)
As for the fertility thing...well,
he and his mate are sensitive about that, and I don't blame
them. But if they
didn't have a real attachment to each other, she would have
eaten him decades
ago.
So, holster the assassins for awhile, O Luminous One. (But
he'll
give you a call the next time he has to visit his mother-in-
law's house. Maybe
the old crone can take an "accidental" dip into the sulfur
pit?)
[> [> [> [> oh poop -- Sophomorica,
12:43:24 11/07/02
Thu
So, holster the assassins for awhile, O Luminous One.
There hasn't been a good defenestration since 1816! And I
was
getting all excited!
[grumbles off to the subway to look for something
yummy for dinner]
[> [> [> [> [> double poop - make that
1618!!!!! --
Sophomorica, chewing on naughty keyboard, 12:44:51
11/07/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> Defenestrations
throughout History
(spoilers for cjl's European vacation) -- cjl,
13:01:19 11/07/02 Thu
Actually, guys, gals 'n' demons, defenestration has been a
part of the
history of the Czech republic since the first Bohemian
tribes settled in the
valley. The most recent example was in the post-WWII era,
when the commies and
the social democrats(?) were sharing power, and a key SD
official "mysteriously"
plunged to his death from his office window, opening the
door to forty-plus
years of repressive communist rule.
You can't make this stuff up.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's why
smart demon politicians
live underground -- Lebasi, 17:18:39 11/07/02 Thu
[> Re: "Him": The Super-Evil Review -- leslie,
16:08:24 11/06/02 Wed
"Topping that off, though, was [Buffy's] Catholic schoolgirl
getup.
What, she's channeling Darla now? Right down to the
bangs!"
Oh, I thought
that was quite deliberate. She puts it on as soon as she
starts seducing high
school boys who think they're the ones in control (exactly
what Darla was up to)
*and* as soon as she starts trying to explain about how she
isn't *really* all
that much older than a high school boy. She's deliberately
trying to look young,
and we're supposed to note the inappropriateness. (Unlike
the "Mom" look she's
been going for, which, yuck.) The bangs, I admit, were
already there, but
frankly, I liked them--they make her look less gaunt.
[> You missed a highlight, oh strangely coiffed
one -- Devilish,
slipping on the stilettos, 17:24:12 11/06/02 Wed
How could you
miss the cat fight? Those sharp (some say beady but I think
they're just being
mean) eyes of your's miss that? It seems that Dawnie has
forgotten the training
that Buffy gave her over the hiatus.
[> [> How little you understand me. --
Honorificus (Whose Hair Is
Perfection), 17:35:14 11/06/02 Wed
Certainly, the catfight was
somewhat fun. Overall, however, watching a mystical teenager
and a Weft (I'm
really quite certain that other female was one--she
certainly wasn't human) pull
each other's hair holds little interest to me. I was more
intrigued by the Twerp
helping the annoying dark-haired boy down the stairs. I
mean, really, what's
more impressive: a deliberate attempt at murder or
disablement, or a
girly-fight?
And what do you mean about my hair? Do you think just any
powerful, immortal entity can carry off multi-colored
dredlocks?
[> [> [> Dreadlocks? -- Devilish, looking
for her minion a.k.a.
the boyfriend, 20:17:11 11/06/02 Wed
I thought you were trying
flatter Medusa or soemthing to that degree.
You are right, Folically
Impaired One. Dawnie helping the boy is infinitely more
noteworthy than a girly
cat fight. But it's not often that you see one of those on
this show. How do you
know she's a Weft and not a Warp?
[> [> [> clarifying -- SpikeMom,
21:46:44 11/06/02
Wed
Wefts in the Buffyverse
Warps in the ATPverse
[> [> [> [> *lol* that was oh so very
good. -- devilish,
09:03:59 11/07/02 Thu
[> Re: "Him": The Super-Evil Review -- ponygoyle,
18:20:51 11/06/02
Wed
Another monstrously delightful review! I salute you (and I
assure you among my people that finger gesture is a sign of
respect)!
I
for one have grown weary of the "no spell is stronger than
Buffy's love for
Dawn" shtick. Obviously no one's been trying the right
spells-- I've got a few
that would have Buffy not only leaving Dawn on the tracks,
but encouraging the
train to back up over her. How about The Invocation of a
Stell McCartney Sample
Sale? No, I think Buffy's used that one a few times. Okay
how about the Charms
of Naked Spike? Well, I guess she's already walked away from
that one (weird).
Ooh, this is interesting, a Spell to Fix Angel's Soul, No
Matter How Often He
Makes With The Hot Monkey-Love, While Restoring His BtVS S2
Physique Yet
Retaining His AtS Sense Of Humour. Still not enough? Okay,
let me flip over to
the good stuff-- The Spike/Principal Wood Tasteful Nude
Wrestling At The Neiman
Marcus Shoe Sale Incantation...ahem... I think I need some
alone time with my
spell book. See ya.
[> [> What wonderful suggestions! --
Honorificus (The Fully
Delightful One), 19:12:27 11/06/02 Wed
Inspired by you, I've been
spending some time with my own spellbooks. I've come up with
a few spells that
could conceivably turn our Slayer into a super-horny, sister-
ignoring,
demon-jumping uber-slut. To wit:
1.) The Eros-Lambada Spell: An oldy but
a goody. Now, you'd have to substitute mountain goat horn
for rhino horn (damn
poaching laws), and then add some wolfsbane to punch up the
potency, but it
would work nicely.
2.) The Sisters-Three Disco Diva: A more recent
invention. Given the Slayer's constitution, you'd have to
mix it with copious
amounts of alcohol to give it the best advantage. Just mix
her a rum-heavy
margarita or whatnot, and be sure to add a touch of powdered
marnac root to
guard the spell's ingredients against the alcohol. You think
Dawn's little dance
was hot? Watch this one, and lock up your daughters, because
the Slayer will be
coming for them!
3.) The Effulgent Tantric Stiffener: This is normally
used on men, but given the Slayer's elevated hormone levels,
I believe it would
work perfectly. Add in a bit of liquid moonlight to adjust
for her gender, of
course, but this spell would have her jumping Snyder if he
was the only male
available.
If Joss really wanted to make Buffy miserable via love
spell,
he'd have asked us. I guess he, like every other male on the
planet, prefers
talking big to actually doing something. Hmph!
[> [> [> It's a crying shame that you don't live
in NYC --
Sophomorica, chewing on a Neiman Marcus Shoe, 20:10:54
11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Neiman's? Was Bergdorf's or
Barney's closed? --
Devilish, admiring some divine Jimmy Choo sandals,
20:22:07 11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> You're right, next time I
will go to
Pravda's. -- Sophomorica, spitting on Neiman Marcus
Shoe, 20:27:12
11/06/02 Wed
[> [> [> Excellent! Most usually forget the key
ingredient to love
spells - tequila! -- ponygoyle making with the
margaritas, 06:08:28
11/07/02 Thu
[> BANGS! -- Slain, 19:14:08 11/06/02 Wed
Buffy with
bangs looks like she's just walked out from her trailer to
see if her husband is
back with the beer. They do not suit her, damnit!
[> [> Re: BANGS! -- Devilish, fluffing her done
undone sexy bed
hair, 20:57:56 11/06/02 Wed
The bangs are an abomination! They
strangely harken back to S1. Buffy the sophomore had bangs
with less plucked
brows. And who could forget all those push up bras?
[> Re: "Him": The Super-Evil Review -- Rufus,
01:10:10 11/07/02
Thu
We did have the lovely Principal Wood, and I've
yet to
see him in something unflattering. I've also yet to see him
shirtless, which
does leave me feeling somewhat unsatisfied, but we can work
around
that.
Yes, the others can have their Spike(I may like the
character,
but ewwwww it would be like kissing my brother)so that
leaves me precious
little...and Principal Wood is a nice looking
fellow....wonder how tall he is
and if he does windows...with Riley gone I have to think
about a
replacement.
[> The hair was the worst ever! On everybody but
Wood. -- luna,
08:05:53 11/07/02 Thu
Why now and not then? (spoilers for "Him") -- Cougar,
14:09:25
11/06/02 Wed
Hi, today is the first time I've posted (anywhere,
ever) so I hope I get the protocol right. I found this board
a few months back
and thought "Wow, I've found my people!"
I'll start with something fairly
concrete and practical. If R.J.'s brother wore the jacket
when in Highschool
with Zander, why didn't Buffy or Willow fall from him then?
And Why were the
Scoobies so infatuated when most girls (save a few) at the
school seemed
uneffected?
[> Welcome. Take a look at Earl Allison's thread below
for some thoughts
on your questions. -- Sophist, 14:16:20 11/06/02
Wed
[> [> Sorry I missed that -- Cougar,
14:22:55 11/06/02 Wed
Thanks. Sorry, I just noticed that below, I missed that
thread somehow.
I think I'll try out for cheerleader next.
[> [> [> LOL -- Sophist, 16:20:31
11/06/02 Wed
[> Re: Easy answer -- Pamela, 15:53:53 11/06/02
Wed
In
one part of the episode Xander mentions that he was a
Freshman when RJ's older
brother was a senior.
As Buffy/Xander/Willow are all the same age...Buffy
was still in Los Angeles the year RJ's older brother wore
the jacket. As for
Willow...back then she was most likely with her head in the
books or computer
club.
Understanding Willow's Sexuality (Caution: S7 Spoilers,
Speculation, and
Mature Themes) -- ZachsMind,
15:55:41 11/06/02 Wed
With the episode "Him" I think it's now a
proper time to explore this question of Willow that has been
a great debate
among the Buffy fan community for years. Is Willow
bisexual? If ever
there were questions about Willow's sexuality before this
week, hopefully now
they can all be fully answered. Despite the magic spell
which seemed to have no
'saving throw' and caused all four major female characters
to lose their common
sense, Willow STILL felt a need to convert this mystically
forced amour to her
specifications, by turning the guy in the letter jacket into
a female.
Personally I wish she'd been successful. That woulda been
hilarious! However, my
point here is that had Willow truly been bisexual, the magic
spell would have
been strong enough to make her settle for a male over a
female. That's not what
happened. So now. Today. We can say she's definitely GAY
NOW.
Or can we?
I used to concur that Willow was bi. However, it's much more
complicated than
that. Willow may require a new term be invented. She was
straight at first, with
Xander & Oz. Then Tara arrived on the scene and all bets
were off. She
tasted the other white meat and found that she
prefers it. However, it
wasn't just that Tara was physically alluring (dare I say
huggibly delicious?).
It was WHO Tara was, and how multi-faceted and deep she was
on very subtle,
almost imperceptable levels. One could say Tara's an "old
soul." Someone with
much more to her than what meets the eye. Oz may be an old
soul too. We can say
she knew there was something mysterious about him that
turned her on, but Willow
liked Oz before he became a werewolf. So it wasn't that. It
was something
deeper.
Willow is affected by certain individuals on a near
spiritual
level. She felt that way towards both Oz (male) and Tara
(female). She's very
selective in that area. This alone is proof that gender is
not a major factor in
Willow's selection process. As she pointed out in the
episode "Him" when it was
brought to her attention that Jacket Boy was male. "I can
work around
that." The physical stipulations of the reality she
senses are not as
important to her as what her own soul desperately needs on a
level that the mere
physical world claims to limit but truly does not.
Willow's early
interest in Xander was just out of their deep rooted history
together. He was
like Linus' security blanket to Willow. Xander represented
security and an
unchanging island amidst the flurry of change elsewhere in
her life. Even now,
Xander offers a grounding to Willow, a power that no other
person has over her.
An intrinsic mutual trust. Xander thinks it was the Crayon
Breaky Willow speech
that stopped Dark Willow. His words. In fact it was just his
presence and his
steadfast refusal to let her destroy the world without
taking him first. There's
a love there between them, but it transcends mere physical
affection. In fact
sex would somehow demean what they mean to each other. Not
because sex is wrong.
It's not. It's because sex between them would be like
playing a virtual card
game on a super computer. You can do it, but why?
It's kinda pointless
and a waste. In season one Willow was unhappy to find
herself in Xander's
"friends zone." Today, the opposite may be true. Or they may
simply have a
mutual understanding. She is his Best Man. They've known one
another longer, and
they know each other more intimately and intrinsically, than
any others who know
them.
Notice that they have NEVER explored the possibility that
Willow
finds Buffy attractive. This is for similar reasons
regarding why she no longer
finds Xander physically interesting. Willow could just never
see Buffy in that
manner, any more than she could see Dawn in that way. It'd
be almost incestuous
to her, and neither character affects Willow deep down in
the way that she needs
in order to be physically involved.
In season six, when Amy magically
called over a random female from the crowd at The Bronze to
be Willow's rebound
from Tara, Willow declined the idea. She can't just have
anybody randomly, male
or female. It's not the gender alone that matters. Although
now that she's
tasted the fruit of the Yoni Temple, she's obviously not
interested in the old
and tired bunch of bananas that social culture dictates she
should prefer. It
can be argued that at one time she was straight or at one
time she was bi. If a
male witch came along with the physical appeal of Angel and
the wise maturity of
Giles, Willow could possibly still find herself attracted to
him. Would she act
on it? Possibly, but ultimately she'd find herself
unfulfilled. UNLESS the male
witch was also an OLD SOUL that did the same things to her
innards that Oz &
Tara did.
Whether the writers' next love interest for Willow is male
or
female, it shouldn't matter so long as they know to focus on
the fact that it's
the 'soul of the person' Willow loves. Not the plumbing.
That's what turns her
head. Something deeper and more majestic than mere biceps or
breasts. Something
that isn't just friend and isn't just lover but both and
other things that can't
quite be put into words. Something special that defies
conscious understanding
and yet makes her world somehow make sense, just by being in
that special
person's presence.
In that one regard Willow's very mature. She may not
consciously know what she wants, but she knows it when she
senses it on an
unconscious level. If only she could approach the rest of
her life with such
sensibility. That is perhaps the most fascinating irony of
her character.
[> Re: Understanding Willow's Sexuality (Caution: S7
Spoilers,
Speculation, and Mature Themes) -- Apophis, 17:23:34
11/06/02 Wed
Okay. Last year, I got yelled at for commenting on Willow's
sexuallity
(though I honestly don't remember if it was here or
elsewhere, so I apologize
for any misplacement of blame). So did some other people.
Despite this, I'm
gonna try again, because deep down, I hate myself.
I always figured Willow
for being bisexual. I thought it was about the person, not
the equipment (Willow
said something like this last night, though she was under a
spell). She didn't
fall for Tara because she was so damn hot (not that she
wasn't); she loved her
for being Tara.
Anyway, apparently Joss himself stated recently in an
interview that Willow is 100%, no holds barred, GAY. I
didn't read the
interview, but I have no reason to doubt it. I got this
information from
AintItCool.com (not in the TalkBack section, though, so it's
trustworthy), in
case anyone's curious. Now, according to the posters there
(who have, in the
past, been... let's call it "overzealous"), Joss got yelled
at by some gay
organization or another for A) killing Tara and B) allegedly
planning to have
Willow date a guy again. I don't know if it's true and at
this point it's rather
moot.
Last year, I said it would be somewhat callow of ME to
change a
storyline/character simply to appease a special interest
group. I said this
would somewhat compromise their artisitc integrety. Again, I
got yelled at for
being a bigot and a fool. Some people believe there is
evidence that Willow was
gay all along. I read their evidence and found it
compelling, but inconclusive.
It occurred to me and to others that her being gay from day
one would invalidate
her attraction to Xander and Oz. Maybe I just don't
understand the psychology
behind the emotional development of a homosexual, but that's
what I thought, and
I wasn't alone.
Now, to sum up, I always believed that Willow loved Tara,
who was a woman, not A Woman, named Tara. I thought it was
about loving a
person, not a gender. Maybe I was wrong, but that's what I
thought. Anyway, none
of it matters if Joss did indeed say what he said. I stand
by my belief that, if
ME was in fact influenced in this decision by the outrage of
an outside source,
this is a comprimise of their integrety. If they did it
because they honestly
wanted Willow to be gay, not bisexual, then I'm okay with
it. That's their
choice. I don't have a problem with any character (or
person, for that matter)
being gay. I honestly don't see Willow getting into a
relationship this season,
anyway.
It occurs to me that I'm getting dangerously close to
rambling, so
I'll conclude here. The comments herein are just what I
thought/think. I'm sorry
if I've missed something, failed to understand something,
offended someone, or
am out and out wrong. Please don't yell at me.
[> [> Re: Understanding Willow's Sexuality
(Caution: S7 Spoilers,
Speculation, and Mature Themes) -- Wolfhowl3,
19:52:39 11/06/02 Wed
I have also read that same interview, (but I can't remember
where.)
Basically, it said that the desicion to make Willow Gay,
instead
of Bi was made long before Tara was killed (around the time
they made W&T a
couple). Thus it was not done to appies any interest
group.
Wolfie
[> [> [> I don't see why, it kind of makes me
sad...Willow was a big
crush -- Charlemagne20,
20:58:08 11/06/02 Wed
I mean why exactly did Joss feel the need
here? I mean Xander/Willow was a great thing I wanted them
to keep hope for
exploration but instead they just basically say
"Siyanorah....no chance here". I
understand perfectly why they would want a character gay and
even why they would
have such but to ignore the established history...
I never liked the last
episode with Oz because it humiliated the poor man as well
as made him out to be
a villain.
[> [> [> [> I'm right there with ya, (NT)
-- Shiraz,
14:00:22 11/07/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> In an interview I read
during that time, Joss
said the opposite.... -- Briar Rose, 23:25:30
11/08/02 Fri
[paraphrasing here] That Willow was a "bi- at most" and that
she wasn't
"gay" in the normal meaning of the word to many. That was
right at the beginning
of the whole "How dare you kill Tara" thing.
I have a feeling that Joss
did as Joss is prone to do - He's EVIL.*LOL He says what he
thinks the target
audience of the perticular interview wants to hear and if he
gets in trouble, he
just changes his mind on what to say. Not that that's a bad
thing and that's
what keep us all guessing no matter what the spoiler sites
post. It is never
"exactly right" but not necessarily wrong.
In truth, I agree with the
posters who say that Willow is actually not able to be
pigeon holed into any one
"lifestyle" at all. She is drawn to the inner self and if it
has breasts or
biceps doesn't matter. She fulfills herself through her
relationships with
others and that doesn't matter if it's though friendly
relationships or sexual
ones.
[> [> Re: Understanding Willow's Sexuality
(Caution: S7 Spoilers,
Speculation, and Mature Themes) -- Miss Edith,
20:26:47 11/08/02 Fri
I remember Joss and Marti were interviewed shortly after
Tara's death
and they confirmed Willow was going to remain gay. Joss said
if Tara had left in
happier circumstances they may have been able to play with a
more fluid
sexuality. But they had a debate after Tara's death over
whether Willow was
experimenting or gay and realised they would be "eaten
alive" if Willow began
dating men again.
[> Re: Understanding Willow's Sexuality (Caution: S7
Spoilers,
Speculation, and Mature Themes) -- DEN, 22:32:55
11/06/02 Wed
The "soul-mate" argument you make in the body of your
posting is
eloquent and convincing. To place the weight you do on
Willow's literal
gender-bending, however, seems problematic. By that logic
Buffy is a murderer,
Anya a criminal, and Dawn a suicide junkie. In other words
the enchantment of
the jacket drove each woman to distorted , not fundamental,
behaviors, Willow's
being not sex-changing but dark magic. The jacket did not
strip away masks and
allow essential identities to emerge--unless ME is insulting
us by telling us we
have become vested in a clutch of sociopaths! (That last
being, IMO, all too
possible!)
[> [> "By that logic..." Yes and..? --
ZachsMind, 14:39:01
11/07/02 Thu
"By that logic Buffy is a murderer..."
Buffy kills demons and vampires on the average one or two
per episode.
She killed Adam who was part human. She has threatened to
kill humans before,
and has even used lethal force on Faith, who barely escaped
Buffy's wrath with
her life on more than one occasion. Also, lest we forget
Buffy sacrificed her
lover Angel in order to save the planet. Though her actions
are noble and
understandable, she has murdered before.
"..Anya a criminal.."
She's been a vengeance demon off and on for a millenium. She
helped
instigate the communist uprising in mother Russia. As Willow
put it last
episode, "you'd kill for a chocolate bar." At best, Anyanka
is amoral, and has
done her share of criminal behavior in her time.
"...and Dawn a
suicide junkie..."
She was going to sacrifice herself when Buffy
chose to use herself to close Glory's portal instead (both
Summers girls are
suicidal). Dawn slit her own wrist to prove to herself she
could bleed when she
found out she was the key. Dawn has shown violent and self-
destructive
tendencies in the past two years. She mopes and plays the
dutiful martyr. She
often believes no one notices her and commits acts like
kleptomania or
self-abuse in order to be noticed. And any shrink will tell
you: attempting
suicide is the ultimate cry for attention. So she has a
death wish. She is a
suicide junkie.
So I do still argue that though the spell did distort
their common sense, acting in a vaguely similar way to
alcohol in that their
inhibitions went out the window, each character did respond
fundamentally each
to their own character traits.
"unless ME is insulting us by telling
us we have become vested in a clutch of sociopaths! (That
last being, IMO, all
too possible!)"
Hope for the best but expect the worst, I always
say. =) If this were real life, Buffy would have been put
away for sociopathic
behavior years ago. Yes friends, we have become emotionally
invested in a bunch
of crazy psychos. Viva la difference!
[> [> [> You do realize... -- MaeveRigan,
18:43:48 11/07/02
Thu
...that some watching BtVS seriously feel that they have
"become
emotionally investing in a bunch of crazy psychos" and
they're not happy at
all?
Some may have forgotten that "Life's a show, and we all play
our
parts / And when the music starts / We open up our
hearts..." and "You'll get
along / The pain that you feel / You only can heal by
living," i.e., by letting
the season unfold.
[> [> [> [> All the world's a stage... --
ZachsMind,
07:52:54 11/09/02 Sat
Shakespeare said the same exact thing centuries
ago.
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely
players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his
time plays many parts,
Jacques is one melancholy and despicably
slothful and worthless dude, but one of my favorite
Shakespeare characters. One
can become emotionally invested in an anti-hero or even a
villianous character
without becoming one. It's called walking a mile in someone
else's shoes. We
empathize with Spike, hope he learns from his mistakes. We
understand why he is
the way he is but that doesn't mean we agree with those
actions. We can hate the
sin yet love the sinner. "There are more things in heaven
and earth, than are
dreamt of in your philosophy." As Giles might say. We
feel for these
characters, and may not understand why, but perhaps at least
partly it's because
we see a glimpse of ourselves in the funhouse mirror. Oh
but for the grace of
God go I...
[> Willow's Sexuality and the Dangers of Romanticizing
Homosexuality
-- yez, 11:48:16 11/07/02 Thu
From the mouth of
Whedon:
(http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/021030b.asp)
Buffy
Star Dead Again
Wednesday, October 30, 2002
Another setback for
poor, lovelorn Willow (Alyson Hannigan) on Buffy the Vampire
Slayer. The
recovering witchoholic's deceased love Tara (Amber Benson)
will not be
resurrected this season after all. According to series
creator Joss Whedon,
Benson — who was slated to be brought back to life as a
different character —
failed to reach a deal with producer 20th Century Fox.
"It was a question
of negotiations, as it sometimes is," he tells TV Guide
Online. "It's sad,
because I love Amber. But that's between her and Fox." Adds
Benson's rep: "She's
very proud of her work on the show, but ultimately, we
couldn't work out the
right deal."
Well, Benson's comeback, like her alter ego, was shot down,
but that doesn't mean Willow won't fall under the spell of
another enchantress.
Whedon reveals that the sapphic Scooby "is going to meet
someone" new. "I can't
say whether or not it's going to work out, but she's
definitely not joining a
nunnery." Another definite: The onetime hetero won't be
going back to boys.
"This I will tell you without any equivocation," he says,
"Willow's
gay."
Well, there was that whole Oz (Seth Green) phase... "It
takes a
while for some people to realize it," reasons Whedon.
"Truthfully, when we first
started the [Willow-Tara love story], we were like, 'Is
[Willow] bi? Is she gay?
What do we want to say? What do we want to do?' "We decided
it would be unfair
of us, particularly considering the circumstances of Tara's
controversial death,
to say, 'Oh, now Willow's over it.' Or, 'Willow's bi so we
can have more
storylines,'" he continues. "So, we do have somebody in mind
that Willow will
meet in the future who might shake up her world just a
little bit — and it'll be
a girl." — Michael Ausiello Is this Buffy's final season?
Read what Joss Whedon
has to say by clicking here.
--------------------------------------------------
Not that I
pretend to be representative of or speak for our teeming
masses, but I
self-identify as a lesbian. Like Willow, I had romantic and
sexual relationships
with men through my early college years -- even after I'd
acknowledged and acted
upon my attraction to women. There are a lot of reasons why
I had relationships
with men: because I was truly fond of and/or attracted to
them, and also,
honestly, because pairing up with guys after parties or
whatnot was just what
was done -- not so much peer pressure but a long-standing
tradition in our small
town where there wasn't anything else to do.
That said, I've never fallen
in love with a man -- only with women. And THAT said, I
haven't been in love
with every woman I've slept with.
My own personal belief is that
sexuality isn't a knob with just 3 settings: heterosexual --
bisexual --
homosexual. I believe that sexuality is a dynamic continuum;
people fall
wherever they fall, and that can change -- and change back -
- over the course of
their lives. And I think that there's a lot that influences
where people fall on
that continuum as well as what behavior they exhibit, which
isn't always the
same thing. Those influences include how you're born, how
you're raised, the
experiences you have in your life and the opportunities you
get.
So
what's my point... My point is that while I believe it's
true that people can
have soul connections, I think it's also true that chemistry
can bubble up
between bodies and spark physical attraction. And I don't
think it's fair to
people who identify as homosexual -- or to the character of
Willow -- to
romanticize the relationships as being all about soul
connections. I used to
think that when I first got involved with a woman, that it
was all about soul
and body was irrelevant. That was the only way I could
explain what was
happening to myself; because the thought of homosexuality
was so foreign and
unacceptable to me, I had to mythologize what was
happening.
I don't
think I'm explaining this right... I guess basically what
I'm trying to say is
that having Willow's connection to Tara -- or any other
woman or man for that
matter -- be *all* about soul *all* the time denies Willow's
sexual self. I, for
one, would like to see Willow have some great casual sex
(with one or more women
-- personal pref) so she can get in better touch with her
body and her
sensuality.
Well, I don't actually have to SEE it... not that I would
complain too much.
yez
[> [> Spoilers for future eps above -- Sophist,
13:05:17
11/07/02 Thu
[> [> [> Oh, dammit ... Sorry and thanks. :(
-- yez, 14:09:03
11/07/02 Thu
[> [> Of course, casual sex is something frowned
upon most of the time
by the BtVS writers. -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:55:39
11/07/02 Thu
[> [> Compelling points -- Rahael, 16:39:47
11/07/02 Thu
[> [> And a great post... -- aliera,
18:30:05 11/07/02 Thu
I am in the middle of (a trying to refrain from reading
whilst I should
be sleeping) the great new book by Ellen Kushner and Delia
Sherman. Very
different than my own experiences (well, it's a fantasy
world.. sort of)but
completely enthralling read...
"My own personal belief is that sexuality
isn't a knob with just 3 settings: heterosexual -- bisexual
-- homosexual. I
believe that sexuality is a dynamic continuum; people fall
wherever they fall,
and that can change -- and change back -- over the course of
their
lives..."
And I agree. Tara's a complicated and loaded subject and so
are
gender issues (as any search reveals.) Yet intriguing. And I
think your point is
well taken... and not just in regard to Willow.
[> [> [> Thanks for info that the new Ellen
Kushner book is
out... -- alcibiades, 20:12:53 11/07/02 Thu
[> [> [> Re: And a great post... --
akanikki, 21:47:51
11/07/02 Thu
Ok this is 2nd hand - but some friends were describing
a recent show they were watching and how sexuality was
described as a continuum
on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being attraction to males and 10
to females with 5
being an equal attraction to either. So a true
"heterosexual" would be a 1 or 10
depending on gender - as would a true "homosexual". The
point made in the show
is that most people really fall in the midranges but with
clear preferences,
being attracted to both sexes at various times for different
reasons (and
usually accompanied by strong denial).
I will try to get more info -
whether it's based on a book (probably)or not and if it's
just more pop
psychology or has a science-based, studies-supported
premise.
[> [> [> [> The Kinsey Scale -- Masq,
06:17:50 11/08/02
Fri
A very well-known study done many years ago now. If you do
an
internet search on it, you will get lots of info.
[> [> [> [> [> I thought there were
serious problems with
Kinsey... -- KdS, 06:27:23 11/08/02 Fri
In particular that he
spoke to volunteer subjects. It's been suggested that
(especially in the
1950s-60s) people who were willing to talk in great detail
about their sexual
activities might have been more experimental than
average.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I thought there
were serious problems
with Kinsey... -- akanikki, 10:45:45 11/08/02 Fri
Thanks,
Masq and KdS - my reading material tends more towards the
business and fiction
best seller lists, so it was all new to me. Interesting
concept, whether or not
it is particularly valid...
[> [> [> Re: And a great post... -- vh,
13:18:33 11/08/02
Fri
I agree. I think that's why so many people seem so very
uncomfortable with the whole subject of
homo/bi/sexuality.
[> [> Kinsey scale, other research and general
comments -- yez,
13:48:45 11/08/02 Fri
Thanks to those who commented on liking the
post.
Re: Kinsey scale --
That's right, I thought I'd read
something about that controversy as well. I do think the
continuum theory is
right, though, and that belief is based on my personal
experience as well as
what I know of my friends'. So, whatever that's worth...
I don't have
time to see if I can find anything online about this -- or
to try to find my
notes -- but a couple of years ago, I went to a social
health conference
presentation on outreach efforts and sexually at-risk
populations, and the
presenter talked about surveys and research being done that
indicated that, at
least with younger generations today, the way people self-
identify and
self-report about their sexuality is kind of complex. For
example, when asked if
they were homo- or bi-sexual, you'd get x number report they
were. But when
asked if they had ever engaged in homosexual acts, the
numbers were surprisingly
different. The point was that you can't just target, say,
HIV outreach efforts
at gay men because there's a lot of people who aren't
identifying as gay or bi
and who will disqualify themselves from your campaign, even
though they may
engage in those sexual acts every once in a while. "Gay? Bi?
No, not me."
Conversely, some younger people *are* self-identifying as
gay or bi even though
they haven't yet engaged in associated sexual behaviors yet.
So this also
pointed to more people not just associating their sexuality
with actual sexual
acts -- avoiding labels.
Just fyi, if my memory can be
trusted.
Reminds me, had an interesting conversation with my father
once
-- he was trying to puzzle everything out about my
sexuality, I guess. And he
said that when he was young, he was aware of a certain
teacher who would trade
sex with young men for money and gifts. Now, I don't know if
my dad was involved
in this (and I didn't ask) but my dad said that he and his
friends had this
attitude that unless you were the one *giving* a blow job or
*taking* anal sex,
being involved in something like that had nothing to do with
being gay. Anyway,
just an interesting anecdote re: attitudes/beliefs about sex
and what it means
or doesn't mean. Kind of like Clinton, I guess, and his
"blow job doesn't equal
sex" attitude, which I think it probably pretty common,
actually.
yez
Not as silly, but somewhat serious at times take on "Him"
Spoilers -- Deb remembers why stopped posting b4. Why is
she posting now, 17:09:18 11/06/02 Wed
Allow me to self-reference my post at the very, very bottom
of "10 Things I Hate About Him."
But I saw a story here.
First of all, (not having seen any eps before season 4) I
ran into the house, turned on the tube, and was getting
ready to pounce on the couch. I saw that Spike was moving in
with Xander. I was so shocked that I missed the couch, but
anyway..
This is what I picked up:
First Spike moved in with Xander, then Dawn and Buffy are
talking on the bleachers. Dawn asks Buffy is she loves
Spike. She says something that really is quite ambiguous,
but she then says she "feels for Spike." -- She is actually
feeling emotions for Spike that he cannot feel right now.
(His wearing all black tonight made him her shadow, [his
closet is as good of a unconscious for Buffy as the basement
was.] and he also shadowed Xander in a different way by
allowing him to lead.) -- (Ah Angel was the brooder. I miss
Spike's witty lingo and acute sardonic insight.) Then she
says she doesn't know how she feels about Spike, but she
does have feelings. She speaks for Spike here too.
Dawn is then enchanted by the letter jacket and thinks she
is feeling this guy's soul, because it feels so real.
Dawn brought up the "attempted rape" and Buffy tells her
that he realizes that it was wrong, that's why he left and
got a soul. Her attitude while saying this felt like she was
saying to herself 'Cool! He went and got a soul just for
me.' -- To Dawn and others re. RJ: "He loves me!" -- You
know, the brushing off of the matter. (Okay, she's at least
apparantly forgiven Spike.) Dawn asks what difference did
the fact that Spike has a soul and hurt Buffy, because
Xander had a soul and he hurt Anya. (It is quite evident
that Buffy has a need to be loved by Spike, and well, he
hasn't really expressed his love this season, though he has
been considerate of her feelings. 'Does he still love me? Oh
God, I don't know how he feels. I don't know how I feel. I
only know I feel something.' As my daughter told me, it is
that feeling that makes you want to throw up. I concure from
my experience. If you feel like throwing up, then something
is going on inside that you are not heeding.
In summation: (yeah!) Buffy is telling us that Spike has
feelings for her (and vice versa), but he doesn't know what
they are so she doesn't either.) William never got beyond
that first crush on C. before he was turned, and his
relaationship with Dru was romanticized, not true love. (It
was that "wild" love that comes after "first" love. Wild
love is crazy making.) He's never felt "true" love so he
probably doesn't know what he feels.
This is one of the thesis questions of the show. How does
the possession of a soul differ from not having one when it
comes to love, and what is soul love?
Just the moral of the story please:
Outward appearances such as wearing letter jackets and cool
leather dusters, etc. are just masks, and they are
enchanting, but it is the soul that makes decisions
regarding true love. "No soul" or a "confused" soul can both
hurt the people around them, but in the end it is the soul
that loves and is loved.
General observations:
Freud said that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Well that
rocket launcher thingy was not a rocket launcher thingy,
which makes the following comedy that much funnier. The look
on Spike's face while he's holding that thing and staring at
Buffy was a mixture of relief and little bit of fear I think
like 'Oh my God. That was a close one!' My daughter was
laughing so hard she fell off of the couch during this
one.
I also find the fact that she was pointing the think at the
principal in the principal's office, which is directly over
the Hellmouth, as foreshadowing. (but not in the same manner
as with Spike.)
I loved the teamwork of Spike and Xander in mugging the kid
for his letter jacket and then running like hell. I don't
know why, but I had vision of Batman and Robin running off
into the night. I thought the show was funny. Xander could
work out a nice "good cop, bad cop" thing with Spike.
The angel thingy with Spike was interesting. Possibly saying
that Angel if out of sight is out of mind? Or, like someone
said, what does he not want the angel to see? His
unworthiness?
The poetry thing feels like foreshadowing of some sort.
Questions: What did Xander say that Spike said when asked if
he wanted to get a pizza? Visions of "The Odd Couple" dance
in my head.
Okay, what's the hair thing? Is the "waved hair" the new
"straight hair"?
[> Re: Not as silly, but somewhat serious at times
take on "Him" Spoilers -- Rufus, 17:31:14 11/06/02
Wed
This season is all about revisiting themes of the past, but
seeing them through a different perspective, one of being
that bit older and maybe wiser. I loved this ep and was
killing myself through a good part of it. I've been watching
the show since it began and found going back to highschool
and seeing that experience for what it is instead of how one
felt at the time can be illuminating at the very least.
How many people have had the experience of getting to see a
"Golden One" a hero in High School, the perfect looking one,
the one with all the breaks....exposed as just being a
regular guy or gal. Xander has always felt like a nerd and
he found High School a torturous experience, he never felt
like he belongs and had been bullied. Now Xander is in a
place where he is successful but still unable to see how far
he has come. Going to the home of the former "Golden Boy"
one who had tormented him, and finding an overweight,
underachiever, who once stripped of his "costume" reverts
back to just a regular guy, one that is happy being a couch
potato. He and his brother never being a bright enough bulb
to figure out that it was the "jacket" that earned the
adulation and now with that gone he now can be lost in the
crowd. I think that mirrors a similar experience many
formerly big fish in the High School pond go through when
they get out into the real world. In the Real World, the
costume may be a factor, but what you actually do makes the
difference. Xander is moving ahead and becoming successful,
the guy with the crutch of the costume/jacket removed, is
just coasting.
Also, why is everyone so surprised that Xander allow