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A Summer Place (spoilers for BtVS 7.6) -- luna, 17:22:13 11/06/02 Wed

Does anybody know why the theme music for women falling for RJ's jacket spell was the theme from the Troy Donahue movie "A Summer Place"?

[> Re: A Summer Place (spoilers for BtVS 7.6) -- Dead Soul, 17:58:12 11/06/02 Wed

My thought was that it harkened back to the time that Lance and RJ's father was using it to woo Miss Arkansas.

In addition to the Summer/Summers similarity, of course.

Just my shallow little take on it.


[> [> Re: A Summer Place (spoilers for BtVS 7.6) -- Lyonors, 18:57:15 11/06/02 Wed

Well, my take on it is that it is one of those sterotypical musical choices. Kinda like if two people were running across a field to each other with open arms, the love theme from Romeo and Juliet would be used....Everyone knows that song too....go on, check your cell phones, I bet its there! ;o) Only this song is stereotypical of "teen love".
The first time in "A Summer Place" where that oh-so-famous theme plays, IIRC, is when the two teen leads spy each other spying on each other and realize it is 'love at first sight'. And the playing of that music during the jacket-enduced-falling-in-love-scenes would be indicitve of the "teen-love" theme of A Summer well as with Dawn's staring from above and far during her moment of realization of her 'love' for RJ, similarly to the scene where the Troy Donahue character spies the Sandra Dee character from above and far (with binoculars no less).
WOW, I really hope that made sense. Been a long day at work, if its mostly unintelligible, my sincerest apoligies!

Ly, tired and raving.

[> [> [> I think you're take is correct and.. -- shadowkat, 19:55:16 11/06/02 Wed

Just got off the phone with someone who explained it to me. The Summer Place theme music was perfect - because it is taken from the Troy Donahue movies. Troy Donahue was the teen hunk, of little substance, and great bode. While he didn't play a football player in this movie...he was the teen hunk as is RJ. All the girls are nuts over him because of his letter jacket. And beautiful teen theme music plays in the background.

The Summer Place was the first of many 50's teen love movies. Where there's love at first sight. The girl loves the guy before she even knows his name. And will do anything to be with him. And of course the sappy love music.
"missing you", "the summer place"...

ME parodied it in Tues. episode.

[> [> [> [> Re: I think you're take is correct and.. -- Kristy, 06:59:21 11/07/02 Thu

one other point, in the movie "A Summer Place" the adults were struggling even more so than the teenagers who had that "perfect love/first love" thing going. A real old-fashioned melodrama--everybody is messed up and searching.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think you're take is correct and.. -- luna, 07:40:59 11/07/02 Thu

And the messed up adults theme fits with this epi really well, since Buffy, Anya, and Willow are at least as screwed up as Dawn, whose reacton is more realistic for her age.

[> Ok I got off my butt and looked up the quote -- ponygirl, 06:23:27 11/07/02 Thu

From Inca Mummy Girl (quotes from Psyche):

Devon: Let me guess: not your type? What does a girl have to do to impress you?

Oz: Well, it involves a feathered boa and a theme to 'A Summer Place'. I can't discuss it here.

I think everyone else's takes on the music also apply but when I first heard the song I appreciated the absolute obscurity of the reference. ME respects the Buffy geeks!

[> [> Good detective work ponygirl. You'd do well with Scooby research! -- Caroline, 12:03:25 11/07/02 Thu

The Episodes of Drew Greenberg (Spoilers through 7.6) -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:06:03 11/06/02 Wed

I must admit, over the months that I've read this board and posted on it, I've been a little intimidated at times. After all, I've never read Campbell, Jung, or Freud. I'm not that useful when it comes to interpreting symbolism, metaphors, or the mythical significance of (insert character name here). Hell, I'm only sixteen, with a couple years of high school left to go. So, what can I bring to the table when there are all these genious philosophers here (you know who you are)? An anal retentive tendency to pick out patterns. Which brings me to:

This post is prompted by the fact that the past two new episodes of Buffy have been written by Drew Greenberg, who also wrote "Smashed", "Older and Far Away", and "Entropy". Given these two new episodes, I think I've begun to notice some patterns running through his work.

Anya and Vengeance Demons - Aside from "Smashed" and "Him", every episode Drew has written has been driven by Anya and Vengeance Demons in general. He reintroduced havoc caused by a vengeance wish with Halfrek in "Older and Far Away". He brought Anya to the foreground in "Entropy" and gave a considerable amount of attention to her trying to get someone to wish vengeance on Xander (and a good deal of character growth). And "Selfless", of course, is the magnum opus so far on the matter of both Anya and Vengeance Demons.

Gay Jokes - OK, I know that Drew Greenberg isn't the only Mutant Enemy writer to make some jokes out of Willow and Tara's relationship, but it seems to be significantly more prominent in his episodes. There's the awkward moment in "Smashed" when Amy makes an anonymous girl come on to Willow. Tara's comment that Buffy's date looked cute in "Older and Far Away", but that she wasn't really the best judge of that matter (it counts as two gay jokes if you add in Clem saying "Yeah, he looked cute" and the look Spike shot him). There's Entropy, where Anya sites the memorable (to me at least) line: "You two are lesbians, so the hating of men should come in handy". And, finally, there's the truly brilliant sequence in "Him" when Willow tries to turn R.J. into a girl so she can sleep with him. "Selfless" is Drew's only episode without a fairly obvious gay joke (or was there one and I just don't remember it?).

Interesting Filming Methods - From "Entropy" onward, Greenberg has used an unusual and interesting filming method in each episode. "Entropy" had the non-linear time sequence where Anya is trying to get vengeance wished. "Selfless" had the old-timey style of film for the Norweigan village flashbacks. And, of course, there's the hilarious scene where the screen is split into four parts, showing what the four love sick Scooby girls are up to, along with that GREAT music!

And, Most Prominently, Major Continuity - This has been in ALL of Drew's episodes. Granted, continuity references are common among Mutant Enemy writers, but Drew has been more prolific with them so far than most writers. "Smashed" brought Amy back from her rat-like state (though this is something the writers had been toying with for a while). In "Older and Far Away", Drew brought Clem back again after his supposedly one shot appearance in "Life Serial", and kitten poker was brought up once more. For "Entropy", Tara and Willow discuss the supernatural adventures that have been had in Willow's absence, and Halfrek is back once more. Now, for "Selfless" . . . Ah, you know what? Screw it! There's two much continuity in these two episodes for me to mention here without being more boring than I already am. Let it suffice to say there were TONS of continuity references.

This Drew Greenberg traits I've brought up seem to have become more common in Drew's later episodes. Most likely because, as he becomes more experienced with BtVS and more confident with his place in the ME writing group.

OK, did my anal retentive pattern analysis bore you all? Feel free to say so.

[> Actually, the Drew who wrote "Selfless" is a different Drew than the one who wrote... -- Rob, 20:23:42 11/06/02 Wed

..."Smashed," OaFA, "Entropy" and "Him."


[> [> Bloody Hell! Well, forget what I wrote. - - Finn Mac Cool, 20:31:00 11/06/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Bloody Hell! Well, forget what I wrote. -- Deb, 21:36:30 11/06/02 Wed

Actually your postings have been interesting, and the fact that I now know you are 16 years old makes them even more so. There is a tendency here among some people, me at times I must admit I am a bit arrogant, to really nit-pik or takes things the wrong way. It makes me feel like I'm taking comprehensive examinations to get my degree. There is also a total lack of humour sometimes, which I find refreshing.

Tonight, I am considering whether or not posting here is of any value to me. I do not remember names of episodes or use quotes. I'm not a concrete thinker or writer. For some people the world must be concrete.

Please continue your postings. I teach students your age and just to see abstract reasoning within a 16-year-old mind is beautiful. As for the continuity of "gay" jokes, I cannot speak regarding this because I am burnt out on "race, gender and class" studies. So, I ignore.

Your mention of the 4-split screen was a great catch. Its intent is how you described. To show simultaneous action.

So, if ever I have demeaned your viewpoint, I'm sorry. I know just how frustrating it can feel.......

If you want just one book that will give you a wonderful, overall interpretation of Campbell, Jung and Archetypes as used in film, I recommend "The Writer's Journey." That's where I started.

[> [> [> [> I liked that one -- Rufus, 01:01:00 11/07/02 Thu

For those who find "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" a bit dull, Vogler writes in such a way as to keep me awake.

[> [> [> [> Ah, that's so sweet! -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:44:06 11/07/02 Thu

Thank you very much, Deb, for the encouragement. Let me rephrase what I said though: it's not really anything other posters have done, it's more of the fact that it is very easy at times to be intimidated by large, shadowkat sized posts, that delve deep into psychological/mythological signficance of so many aspects of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Still, I'm glad someone enjoyed my post. Again, many thank yous!

[> [> [> [> On posting and not posting -- dream of the consortium, 08:21:10 11/07/02 Thu

*Tonight, I am considering whether or not posting here is of any value to me.*

I have moved from active poster to lurker for just the reasons you've mentioned. I'm coming out of my box for this one thread because I am very interested at the moment in how/why people choose to interact in this way, and what problems people have with it.

Personal explanation: I had never followed a discussion board, but I have a very dull job that's filled with long hours of waiting to have something to do. I found this board and lurked a good long time before I posted. My first post worked out fairly well - I was very careful and wrote out a long essay, edited, rewrote, and so on. Though the first responder was strongly negative and nearly put me off reading any more responses, others were very positive and I was happy to join the fold. Unfortunately, more and more I found that posting had become unpleasant. Posters tended to try to outdo one another in finding the errors in a post, rather than thinking about and responding to overall arguments. I started to do this as well, becoming more and more concerned with finding something to say - which often meant tearing down another poster's arguments, it being so much easier to destroy than to build.

Then one Friday afternoon I posted something without rereading it. I was shocked to read strongly negative responses - responses that seemed unrelated to my argument, in fact implied that I had said something I didn't believe in the slightest. I reread my post, and was horrified to realize that the fault lay with me, not with the readers. I had thrown off examples of something, without explaining what I thought they were examples of, and the posters had misinterpreted quite understandable. The attitude behind the posts was unpleasant, though - there was pleasure in the ease with which my argument could be taken down, an off-hand coldness that would have been quite rude in person. Sadly, I recognized my own occasional posting style in those responses. It was five o'clock on a Friday, and I don't have a computer at home. What surprised me was how deeply the whole thing bothered me - what strangers thought of my ideas about a TV show! I thought about it all weekend, wrote and re-wrote mentally the posting I would make to explain myself. I decided Monday not to post, not even to look at what became of that thread, I still haven't. I didn't even lurk for a couple weeks, and I don't plan to post much more. I wouldn't have done so this time, but I had another experience. I failed to learn from my mistake (very Buffyverse of me). I actually got caught up in reading a discussion on the Slate board about a topic I am very interested in in a very personal way. I dared to post, and the nastiness and abuse that was hurled at me immediately left me feeling quite literally sick to my stomach. The posters here can be snippy, but never abusive. The level of discourse at Slate is shocking, to say the least - nothing like the general level of respect found here.

As a result, I have been thinking about this strange form of communication a good deal. I know that part of my problem lately is that I am battling another bout, albeit mild, of depression. As a friend of mine says, depression is like an immune system failure of the soul. Things that should slide off of you unnoticed get inside, infect you. Your resistance to insult, negativity, and difficult people, is down. Not a good time to be throwing ideas into a public sphere and reading the responses. But there is also something about the medium itself that causes problems in communication. Now, I've really enjoyed reading posts and will continue to do so, and understand that there are some wonderful things about these boards. But, I can't help but be frustrated by the side of human nature that so frequently shows itself on them. Anonymity, the speed and ease of posting, seems to combine the worse of the telephone and the letter without the advantages. The fact that these are strangers, that after a year and a half of reading and posting, I don’t really know any of these people at all, means that they can project on me (and vice-versa), all sorts of beliefs and values I may not hold. I often people that the people who talk in the chat room have a type of closeness that allows them to know one another better – but also gives a certain clique-iness to the proceedings. I found myself wanting to post frequently to be considered a “real” poster, even if I couldn’t join chat. I’m just not sure how to think about, how to understand, this phenomenon of strangers talking without actual interaction, in a format that allows instant responding, but gives no indication whether your words have been read. I am curious as to how people feel about posting – anyone interested in sharing? Any lurkers willing to take the plunge to say why you generally lurk rather than post (a strange request, admittedly)? . How do you feel when you post and get no response? Do you try again, hoping that you have been ignored because you posted too far down the board, rather than because of what you said? Do you post less than you used to, or ever had to take a break? Does reading the board ever actually decrease your pleasure in the show (usually, I enjoy it more when I’ve had a chance to read other’s ideas, but sometimes it works the other way.) Do you notice when posters just stop posting? Do you find yourself being more nitpicking or quick to judgment than you would be if talking to someone in person?

Sorry this is so long, I am just hoping to start a discussion that might clarify my own thinking.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- ponygirl, 09:21:52 11/07/02 Thu

I wish I had more time to give your post, dream, because these are questions I certainly have considered. It's a weird act of faith to cast opinions/comments/remarks off into the void and hope that they'll be received in the spirit that they were intended. All I can really say is that I felt happy when I saw your name, and I realized that I had missed reading your posts.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting - who are you? -- Darby, 09:26:16 11/07/02 Thu

I do notice some patterns on the board - I've noticed your absence, dream, because although we don't always see things the same way, I find your vision interesting and it makes me examine or re-examine what I think I'm seeing. Often a point will set off my "Wait until so-and-so sees this," and then I remember that I haven't seen so-and-so for a while (happened yesterday with Marie).

I've noticed lately that there have been fewer anecdotal responses - I think when we tell stories about ourselves to explain our perceptions, everyone gets a better "feel," for good or ill, about the strangers at the other keyboards. It's fun to know each others' opinions, but it's fun to get insight into each others' lives, too.

This is a very personal experience, though. My wife finds it very demoralizing to put up her ideas and get no responses, and I absolutely understand the feeling although it doesn't deter me. But I've always been the one person in the room willing to put up a hand and ask what might be the stupid question, so my skin is a bit thicker than most. In fact, I've just been offered a very high-profile committee chairmanship based, I think, totally on my history of asking about the elephant in the room (I don't know what else remotely qualifies me for it otherwise). I get an idea, I post it, then generally I deal with the frustrations - the twisting of the thread on what I thought an insignificant subpoint, the realization that I didn't (and sometimes can't, no matter how hard I try) make my main point skillfully enough, so I feel like I'm arguing a position I don't even have, the occasional realization that I've taken something way too personally and written something I really shouldn't have - that's the worst, when I might have stepped too far and insulted someone, and of course the strength of the board here is that the general tone holds those feelings and tendencies back.

The decision comes down to, which is more fun - sharing your ideas with the group, knowing that they might be tossed up for skeet shooting, or standing back and observing, safe but occasionally frustrating because you want to say something but don't at the same time? For a mouthy egotist like me, the choice is easy, but it's going to be different for everybody.

- Darby, typically shooting from the lip. (NOTE - plus, it's fun when you can come up with a cute twist-of-phrase!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> hey, darby, mazel tov on being named committee chair! -- anom, 23:28:12 11/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- Rahael, 09:39:26 11/07/02 Thu

I'm wracking my brains trying to think which post you meant Dream but I can't remember - if I participated in it, could you remember, so I can at least try and shed some light into the attitudes we can only presume but never know?

The only last post I can remember of yours is that you misunderstood my Gerard Manley comment, which I felt terrible about. Plus you just kind of didn't come back!! I don't really want to piss off people who actually have a) read his poems b)like him!

As for 'real' poster, you certainly are one! I can even remember when you once resurfaced, to ask after another poster (Mundus), and I thought, "oh, so there's dream!". I have a long memory - I remember that the next time you did contribute you did so in the troll thread that I had got myself embroiled in.

I used to go to chat a lot, and that was the reason I posted - I finally plucked up the courage to post longer arguments - you see, I had been burned by incivilty in other boards. The kindness I found in chat made me feel safer here. But, to be honest, I feel a familiarity to all sorts of people who've never had a conversation with me, and who only post. I too have a job that leaves me with hours of time to fill - and so I read the whole board, most days. I love getting a sense of personality and so on from the posters.

As for the cliqueyness of chat - a lot of the people I chat with are not the people who respond to, or even read my posts. Sometimes, someone will say "I really liked/loved your post on....", which will surprise me because it is a post that hadn't received any replies.

To be honest, I've had a ton of unanswered posts. It's just something everyone has to get used to. We just can't ever know why. We can't know how quickly other people read your post, nodded their head vigorously, and then went on to read the next one.

Board activity consists mainly of reading, not posting. Therefore, just because you haven't got a response, doesn't mean you haven't been read and noticed. It doesn't mean you're being ignored or shunned.

And frequently, threads do go off tangent. A lot of the time, people don't feel they have anything substantial to add, so they pick up on a thought or an idea that resonated with them.

I remember the only semi successful thread I had, which was quoting from a newspaper article which mentioned Buffy. I got shot down for requoting something the journalist said, and then then thread descended into talk of Canada and boats or something. No one actually responded to my original post - and I had nothing to add to the subsequent discussion. To be honest, it didn't really put me off posting again, though I did decide that I did not have the talent for starting stimulating threads that some posters clearly have. Now I confine myself to posting commentaries, which by the way, get 'ignored' too, in the sense that a lot of people don't seem to respond. But the commentary itself is a fully formed argument which is hard to 'add' things to. Which is why it never really starts a discussion, just as some very good posts/comments never really do.

As for tearing down arguments, I'm trying to be better these days. I've deleted quite a few posts recently. If a post just hits a button, I don't respond.

However, I don't always see disagreement as tearing down. My first substantial participation in any thread involved a discussion of social darwinism, where I first disagreed with dH. Again and again. In fact, dH probably disagrees with quite a few posts I make - he's just too lazy to post!

I've disagreed with nearly every one of my favourite posters on the board. Some I am extremely fond of. I just don't come from a world view where disagreement is seen as contrary to respect. I can remember that my mother taught me most of my critical skills by questioning a lot of my statements. Not tearing them down, but asking me questions that made me think and think.

The thing I did when I was new to the board and felt ignored was to "follow" one poster for a week. Because we never really notice that no one gets 'responded' to regularly. We don't usually notice if someone never gets a response no matter how much they plug away. We only notice when it happens to us.

But definitely, I'm pretty sure that I've read nearly every post you've ever written here. And there's been only a couple of occasions when we've 'disagreed', and even then, I still agreed with you!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- dream, 10:15:06 11/07/02 Thu

I'm very touched. As I said, I am more sensitive than I ought be, particularly at this time. Thanks to all of you.

Darby - you hit the nail of the head, I think, with the choice of frustrations, and the necessity of basing that decision on temperment. I have a hard time putting myself forward in any way – could no more speak in public than I could fly. So I can deal better with going unheard than with leaping into the fray, even if there are times when its frustrating. As the season progresses, I probably won't be able to keep my mouth shut for good, though waiting until I'm past the blue spell would probably be wise.

Rahael - the posting that sent me away really was my own fault, and no, you weren't involved. The issue being discussed was the role of punishment. Someone had made a comment about not feeling comfortable about letting Willow off without punishment because of how he feels about the punishment of murderers in the real world. In my response, I was trying to talk about how the Buffyverse was a world of exaggeration, that a one-to-one relationship between real world punishment and Buffyverse punishment wasn't possible (actually, if every real-world murderer could be sent away to be spiritually trained by a coven of wise witches and one wise older friend, I probably would prefer that system, but it's just not cost effective!) Anyway, to illustrate the rather obvious point that this wasn't the real world, I listed a bunch of things that Willow had done that came clearly from the realm of fantasy. I stupidly didn't explain that this was what I was doing, and so the list looked like a list of Willow justifications - she did this and this in the past, so she doesn't deserve punishment. Which wasn't what I meant at all, but was the most likely interpretation of what I had said. In person, I could have sorted that out in seconds, but online, the timing is off. Which is why I question the medium and its limitations, not the people here (who are, quite frankly, currently glowing in my mind in comparison with the people at Slate - downright efflugent).

I don’t have a problem with disagreement at all, just the tendency to try to find something to prove wrong, rather than trying to discuss and understand more fully. This seems to be particularly prevalent on-line – I notice it frequently, and, as I said, have noticed it in myself as a poster.

Also, I asked about the no-response thing more because I have seen people complain about that, with obvious hurt feelings, and because it seems specific to this medium than out of my own concerns. Personally, I never took that very personally, though I did sometimes wonder about the etiquette of re-posting if no responses came to a post that was far down the board – is it okay to try again? Or is that annoyingly aggressive? Never quite sure.

I’m also curious as to what happens to this strange communal relationship when the show ends.

And of course, I have made my favorite mistake again, and am posting just as I leave for a long weekend without access to a computer. Thanks for your responses – and if anyone responds after this, I am not ignoring you, I just won’t have a chance to look at these until Tuesday :) Again, the limitations of the medium…..

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> lol -- Rahael, 10:29:36 11/07/02 Thu

ahhh, now I remember.

Well, I was involved, kind of, because I think I actually said I disagreed with you on some points. Oh well!!! Though I did take your point about the metaphorical nature of so many crimes in the Buffyverse. I am happy for her punishment to be metaphorical though, not actual. Whatever my views on foriveness, I'm not a big punishment freak.

As for reposting - do what I've started doing - requote all my old posts. Though I'm quite sure it's annoying.

"I don’t have a problem with disagreement at all, just the tendency to try to find something to prove wrong, rather than trying to discuss and understand more fully. This seems to be particularly prevalent on-line – I notice it frequently, and, as I said, have noticed it in myself as a poster."

Yes, absolutely - one thing I always value in responses is an attempt at communication/conversation, rather than a series of rebuttels and defenceses. I get turned off by attempting to communicate with people who don't seem to unbend in any way.

"Which is why I question the medium and its limitations, not the people here (who are, quite frankly, currently glowing in my mind in comparison with the people at Slate - downright efflugent)."

LOL. I lurk on another board, which has a bigger variety of "on topic" topics. The posters, frankly, scare me. Even the ones I like/agree with. It's the accepted tone there to swear at those you don't like, mock mercilessly, tell them to go away, insult them, etc etc. The only time I've said anything is along the lines of "yeah, great book!". Though I did get told off because I was too positive and reasonable, and couldn't I try harder and enter into the spirit more? (!!!!)

And as for depression - well, for me too, it is an ongoing fight to keep it at bay. I start noticing incipient signs, alarm bells go off, much poetry reading is done.

Much much sympathise. Hope you stave it off.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL - - alcibiades, 13:22:56 11/07/02 Thu

I lurk on another board, which has a bigger variety of "on topic" topics. The posters, frankly, scare me. Even the ones I like/agree with. It's the accepted tone there to swear at those you don't like, mock mercilessly, tell them to go away, insult them, etc etc. The only time I've said
anything is along the lines of "yeah, great book!". Though I did get told off because I was too positive and reasonable, and couldn't I try harder and enter into the spirit more? (!!!!)

Fitting praise, Rah.

As you are one of the most consistently supportive posters on this page, I'd say their tribute to you was just about right.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Awww! Thank you!! -- Rahael, 15:58:44 11/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Gotta love it! -- Vickie, 11:56:45 11/08/02 Fri

"Go away, you are too positive"? Says something about the forum.

I really think that people's reaction to the nature of this medium often has a lot to do with their level of experience with forums (forae?) in general--or with UseNet.

This community is a warm fuzzy, even in its treatment of trolls, compared to many that are out there. For which, I thank you all. You've certainly been forgiving of my foibles.

[> [> [> [> [> [> damn that was long, rah. -- VampRiley, 10:21:55 11/07/02 Thu

Hitting all the right points. I'm actually glad you wrote them (at least someone who isn't me) because this topic has come up a few times. It's not bothering me that it's up again, I'm just glad I'm not having to actually type out that stuff like I have in the past.

For me, my posting has pretty much dropped off the radar simply because 1) there were no new eps during the summer, though I did have a summer session class during the first half of the summer and 2) I'm in my last year of college for anthropology and I have been seriously busting my ass most of the last couple of months. And next semester will most likely be more of a pain in my ass.

So, where was I? Oh, yeah. You should have seen me when Masq first started a message board. I was posting like crazy. That even continued until the last year or two. I, myself, hav never had a thread that has taken up a large portion of the board. A tiny little bit, but never really much. When you get out of this bad time, just shrug and move on to something else. That's what I've done and it's worked for me.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Posting here has been an uncommonly fulfilling experience (thanks, Masq!) -- cjl, 11:50:21 11/07/02 Thu

Maybe my experience is unique, but this board has been a completely positive experience. I can blab on about BUFFY and ANGEL all I want, I'm talking to my intellectual peers and superiors, and my opinions get noticed and receive accolades, or--even better--challenging responses that make me re-think what the hell I've been blabbing about.

Best of all, I've met--in the face-to-face way--some of the NYC area posters on the board, and I like 'em all. Darby and Sara, Rob, Tillow, Anom, and especially Shadowkat, WHO NEEDS OUR LOVE AND SUPPORT IN HER TIME OF CRISIS! (Sorry. She's escaped the clutches of her version of Holland Masters, but she still needs a job. I am concerned.)

Don't I have a horror story or two? Oh sure. When I was posting on the BC&S board, part one of my epic, I-freakin'-sweated-blood Dawn post got swallowed up by the "Seeing Red" controversy and vanished into the archives in less than 90 minutes. (90 minutes!) It also vanished relatively quickly on ATP, and I was depressed for days. Then I posted part two, and I started getting comments like, "Hey, I remember reading part one--it was great. What happened to it?" You throw a pebble into a pond, and watch the ripples flow outward. Have faith that if you're writing with intelligence and you have the germ of idea in your post, your fellow Buffyphiles will notice.

I think that's a key point in posting on the internet. Never forget there's a real person behind the string of bits and bytes appearing on your screen. Treat them with respect. (That's something everyone should remember.)

And as for the mild depression...I've been there. And probably will again. For what it's worth, all I can say helps when you talk to people. I think a number of people on this board, myself included, would be more than willing to help you through a rough patch when it comes up.

Hang in there. More important, hang in HERE, too.

Jacob (real person)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're welcome... -- Masq, 12:21:46 11/07/02 Thu

but I just keep the board running and make up a few rules. It's the posters who create the atmosphere and actually respect the rules. : )

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Styles on other boards -- Rufus, 14:33:05 11/07/02 Thu

My husband frequents other Buffy for of the habits of some is to critique other posts and one of the ways is to have at the bottom of someones post comments about what they thought. One of the things that got my attention is the fact that they "smite" posts....not quite sure what that means but it definately reminds me of how adversarial posting can become. What works with this board is that people aren't heavilly invested in ridicule unless it is of the joking around types of comments.

I see the occasional gripes about spelling and grammar, but as I've told everyone...I suck at spelling and blow at grammar(and it seems will be a writer of pornography in another life). If someone writes something that I fancy I reply to it if only to kid about with the poster. This board is what we make it, and we have to remember we always one step away from making it a heaven or a hell. So everybody be nice or I'll have to do some "smiting" (jeeze that term kills me)....;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good luck smiting me -- god here. -- God of Links, princesses, vampire, 17:49:23 11/07/02 Thu

And I don't have a drawback, like Glory did. She may not have liked it, but I like "sluming" with the rest of you. You have any idea how boring the dimensions that are the homes of the gods are?


Timeless infinity isn't all it's cracked up to be. I speak from personal experience here. This plane of existence is so much more fun and it's constantly changing, especially since there isn't just one physical dimension.

VampRiley, the first god of and head of the ATPoBtVS&AtS pantheon of gods.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Your's isn't a unique experience. -- VampRiley, 17:36:35 11/07/02 Thu

Maybe my above post was unclear. I've been extremely happy about posting to the board. So, what if I don't always get a response. Where I live, there isn't anyone I can talk to about Buffy. I take a shuttle from Ambler to Main campus in Philly and I overheard a guy and a girl talking about how a teacher they had shared once had used Buffy as part of her class. They were ripping on how "it's...Buffy".

So, what did I do? Did I set them straight on how wrong they are about the show? Did I beat them senseless until they realized the error of being truthful in their disrespect of the show? Did I call them, uptight, nincompoops who couldn't tell good TV even if their TV sets came to life and started ripping their naughty bits in a slow and very painful manner from their unenlightened brains?

Sadly, no.

I just sat behind them and rolled my eyes. It was very early in the morning and I was trying to get awake.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> "Posting like crazy" -- Masq, 12:18:59 11/07/02 Thu

But you weren't posting as VampRiley, yes? You had a different name then? What was it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> For the most part, LiamK (season 5 Spike spoiler) -- VR, 17:25:11 11/07/02 Thu

Like many, including yourself, I've posted under different names when asking questions, etc. ... nothing troll-ish at all. But, LiamK was my major one. I switched after Spike had the dream about kissing Buffy and where he woke up next to Harmony.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, VR -- Rahael, 02:06:01 11/08/02 Fri

Well, when a person dashes off 300 page stories, you can see why their posting rate drops!!

Good luck with the school work!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- Sophist, 10:16:09 11/07/02 Thu

I'm not sure I can respond to all of your points, but I can say that I value your posts and always read them. If you don't post, I consider that a big loss. I do notice when people stop posting, and I miss their participation quite a bit -- Ian, mundus, Anne, manwitch, redcat, and a number of others have either left or are posting much more rarely, and I regret that.

For me, the hardest aspect of posting is toning down the posts so that they aren't too challenging to the reader. I try to do that, but sometimes (especially when I'm posting in a hurry; always a mistake) the stuff that appears on the screen sounds a lot harsher than it did in my brain. In those cases, I wince when I re-read them and I look for a way to retrieve the situation, but sometimes it's hard to find a graceful way. Flogging and punishing is then the only remedy; and this, as we all know, is not very satisfying to the other person.

Reacting to a post presents the opposite problem. I am sometimes taken aback by a response. If I "know" the poster from chat or from long experience on the Board, I can get past it. I just figure that that person had a bad day or didn't mean to phrase it quite so harshly. Occasionally the post seems intended to be offensive. In that case, I find it easiest to just let the discussion end without participating any further. In some very rare cases, I've decided not to bother reading that person's posts anymore. This seems preferable to leaving -- why should one person's rudeness deprive me of the pleasure I get in other posts?

I do think that this Board increases my enjoyment of the show. People here notice many things that I never would, and their interpretations give me a lot to think about even if I disagree. I could get all this from just lurking, but if everyone felt this way......

D'H had an excellent post many moons ago explaining the reasons why there may be no response to a post. I can't remember them all, so maybe he'll link to it. Some of them are: I agree; you've said it so well, I've nothing left to say; I just don't have a position on that subject; you gave an opinion on a matter of taste and I have nothing to offer in return but a different taste. In other words, it can be disappointing to put work into a post and have no one respond, but you shouldn't take it personally.

Lastly, on a personal note, I'm very sorry to hear about your depression. I know little about how you might experience that, but wouldn't engagement with others (even if you feel you are forcing yourself) alleviate it some? Assuming we don't flame your next post, of course. :)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- Arethusa, 11:23:46 11/07/02 Thu

My work is repetitive, unchallenging and never-ending. (So is taking care of the kids sometimes, come to think of it.) Before I began posting my brain was starting to atrophy from lack of use. I could barely converse, let alone defend myself in a dispute. I began posting very soon after I started lurking, because I had so much to say and no one to say it to.

Some people have found some of my posts insulting. (They were.) And the posts that mean the most to me are sometimes ignored. A couple of times responses have triggered depression in me, too-as I told you some time ago, I've been dealing with depression for over twenty years. But each bad experience taught me something. Think before I post. Don't try to amuse myself at others' expense. Back up opinions with facts. Don't post if I'm depressed, or keep the statements very short. All lessons I needed to learn. A few times I've wanted to take my ball and go home (so to speak) but I can't not read the board (it's too entertaining) and I can't not give my opinion; I was quiet for far too long to go back now. Even if no one gives my any feeback, at least I was able to do something that has been lying dormant in me for decades- be a writer. After all, writers send their work into the ether all the time, sometimes never knowing how others feel about her work. To me, the instant responses, no matter what kind, are like Christmas presents. Sometimes you get an ugly sweater or a fondue pot, or nothing at all. But every once in a while, you get a diamond.

I miss posters when they stop posting. The input from other posters with a wide variety of backgrounds and knowledge has greatly increased my understanding and enjoyment of the show. (Still don't like "Help," though.) I decided recently that too many of my posts were negative, so I stopped picking apart others' work quite so often. I'm more likely to discuss or argue on the board than in real life, but that's changing-posting here has made me more sure of my ability to discuss and defend myself in real life. Since I never used to stand up for myself, I think that's good.

I regret the limits of the medium, but it's given me a lot more happiness than frustration. I wonder just how many lurkers there are out there-dozens? Hundreds? The discussion boards are an amazing thing. I moved constantly as a kid and adult, never really getting to know many people. And here are all these people who've read the same books as me, like the same tv show, are educated and wittty and (usually) kind. It's a wonderful gift; one I won't return.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- Slain, 11:38:10 11/07/02 Thu

I think it's in the nature of the kind of discussion we have here that there will be arguments; but what I like about the board is that arguments don't usually escalate, and that it's almost always possible for people with very different views to have a discussion. I think if we avoid saying that others are 'wrong', or that another's view is less valid, then we shouldn't have a problem. I hope that everyone is welcome here, whether they've read Jung or not. I, personally, have a fairly specific literary criticism background, but I hope I put across my ideas to people who have a different background.

As for the amount of replies, I do think the biggest reason for replying to something is disagreement, not agreement; I've read some great posts, but felt like it wasn't worth adding my own "Great post! (NT)" amongst several others if I didn't have anything else to add. Obviously, I expect people to disagree with me, but I haven't really experienced anyone nit-picking my arguments, at least not that I can recall - usually, replies are either complete (but civil) disagreement, or a strange tangent I didn't expect!

[> [> [> [> [> If you leave me now, you'll take away the biggest part of me... -- Caroline (asking everyone - ooh now baby please don't go), 11:56:44 11/07/02 Thu

dream, I want to go on record as stating that I have been one of the posters who has missed your contributions to the board. I also miss redcat, manwitch, Age, and several others who rarely post these days. (P.S. I totally love your name).

As for everyone else: please keep posting, all of you. Exposing one's thoughts and ideas is hard but the only way we learn how to interact more successfully with others is by interacting with others, not withdrawing. I know that the more I have participated, the easier it has become. I just accept the experience for what it is. I don't have to write a masters thesis every time. I don't look to this board for any form of validation. There's stuff I know about and stuff I don't know about and I expect others will disagree with me sometimes because other people are not me! I just come here to meet people who have pierced the veil of the title 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and found a rich, complex piece of art and to share my enjoyment with them. I really enjoy many of the people who post here and was so happy to meet anom, LittleBit and Sol recently and look forward to meeting more of you in the future. And I've been inspired to read sci-fi and comics and see Buffy from a broader lens than the mythological, psychological, literary lens through which I have been watching. I now understand how one can feel friendship and liking for people one has never seen.

Caroline - who has a theory that everything is a song, experimenting with titles.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes! -- ponygirl, 12:25:42 11/07/02 Thu

Everybody keep posting! More! More! Fill my brain!

Oh, and Caroline, another namesake song for you: David Gray's new CD has a "Caroline" song.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Namesake for Caroline (thx to ponygirl) -- pr10n, 13:48:47 11/07/02 Thu

Ponygirl thanks for reminding me:

Caroline, I remember your post about collecting songs with your name. My favorite band in the world (current) is Low, from Duluth, Minnesota. Their second album (Long Division) has a song that matches your exacting criteria; I quote the lyrics here (cos there ain't much):

Caroline, we don't have much time
mercy lies in the one you hide
Caroline, we don't have much time
mercy lies in the ones we hide

you don't need to be outside
you can stand with me in line


That's it.

[Impending fanboy plug] Low is at

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Many thanks ponygirl and pr10n -- Caroline, 14:12:45 11/07/02 Thu

I just posted how I don't come here for any validation but I gotta admit that you guys put a smile on my face. It's particularly important to me today because it's the anniversary of my husband's death and I was feeling low.

So, now we have the following artists who've written about me:

Lou Reed (2 songs!), Neil Diamond, Concrete Blonde, Matching Mole, David Gray and Low. Any others?

Caroline, working hard to keep primary narcissism under control!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Beach Boys/Brian Wilson: "Caroline, No" (from Pet Sounds) -- cjl, 14:17:12 11/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Caroline, by Marty Balin -- Arethusa, 17:44:17 11/07/02 Thu

He wrote some very pretty ballads when he was with Jefferson Airplane, back in the day.

My condolence on your loss.

Oh what can I tell you now Caroline
Should I hurt your feelings and keep on lying
One thing leads to another
And another
And another besides
You always know whenever I want to make love
Yeah and you always know all the changes I’m going through

Just as if you can read my mind
You know everything I do
There just ain’t no words to describe how I feel inside for you

But somewhere out there
Waiting on a wonder
You’ll lend wings to my words
When the band is gone and the music of my song is just right for lovers

You’re what I want more than anything else
Ooo I love you yeah I do but I know when I’m all by myself
Nothing is real but my feelings and desires for you
Everything looks like some sort of scenery stored in an empty theater
With stars on the ground
Fences in the sky
Tears in the curtain of time
Oh what can I tell you now my Caroline

Except that somewhere out there
Waiting on a wonder
You’ll lend wings to my words
When the band is gone and the music of my song is just right for lovers

Oh you’re loving keeps on rolling
Oh Caroline your loving keeps me rolling
Rolling all the time

Yeah now baby
Somewhere out there
You really roll me
You roll me away

Yeah now baby
Somewhere out there
You really roll me
You roll me away

When the melody makes me surrender
Dark eyed girl I always remember that you love me
Somewhere out there you love me

Tied to the music (yeah you love me)
Wildly in my heart
You roll me away (yeah, yeah, yeah)

You always fill my heart with wonder
You always fill my soul with love
You always fill my lips with kisses
You always fill my eyes with tears

Ooo yes you do now
Ooo yes you do now

It’s like the wind from the other side of the world
Like a far off pack of hounds
Sounds like the whole universe just a throbbing with life
The lights from my eyes
Hypnotize me like the gaze of a mantis
Why even Atlantis sank thru the waves in the day and the night
Oh but in a day and a night I could write you a symphony
It would be just like your birds carrying my love over the mountains

Somewhere out there….
Waiting on a wonder
You’ll lend wings to my words
When the band is gone and the music of my song is just right for lovers

You always fill my heart with wonder
You always fill my soul with love
You always fill my lips with kisses
You always fill my eyes with tears
Oh I cried Caroline
Oh I cried Caroline
Oh now I cried now…
Oh I cried Caroline

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Really lowering the tone here... -- KdS, 06:39:12 11/08/02 Fri

There is a little group called Status Quo:

If you want to turn me on to
Now anything you really want to
Turn me on to your love
Sweet love

If the night time is the right time
Oh anytime of yours is my time
We can find time for love
Sweet love

Come on sweet Caroline
You're my sweet Caroline
You know I wanna take ya
I really gotta make ya
Come on sweet Caroline
Take my hand, together we can rock'n'roll

When I'm thinking of you sleeping
I'm at home alone and weeping
Are you keeping your love
Sweet love

Do you still care when I'm not there
Now do you really wish I was there
Can I come there for love
Sweet love

Come on sweet Caroline
You're my sweet Caroline
You know I wanna take ya I really gotta make ya
Come on sweet Caroline
Take my hand, together we can rock'n'roll

If you want to turn me on to
Now anything you rally want to
Turn me on to your love
Sweet love

Come on sweet Caroline
You're my sweet Caroline
You know I wanna take ya
I really gotta make ya
Come on sweet Caroline
Take my hand, together we can rock'n'roll

Status Quo - Caroline

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If you leave me now, you'll take away the biggest part of me... -- Cougar, 22:12:58 11/07/02 Thu

I started posting for the first time yesturday and it was a curious experience. It was like regressing to the first day at a new highschool, were you suddenly feel exposed, unsure and mostly incoherent.

I was suprized how scary it felt. I almost stepped back to lurking but this lovely stream of posts has encourged me.

I think anything to do with our conciousness needs both input and output to grow within us. Sort of a mental tide cycle, or like breath. So you may not start out with a brilliant observation to share but staying in the stream may teach you to uncover one. Voice will always lead you to things that you've forgotten you already know.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:58:19 11/07/02 Thu

I started watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer very early in 2002 (I think it was January or February). I quickly started searching for sites about BtVS online (of which there are plenty to satiate my Buffyholism). Eventually, I found Masq's, mainly because I was looking for a good site about vampire metaphysics (such sites entertain me, there are so many different interpretations of vampire mythology out there that reading how someone has constructed their vampires is always fun). After a certain amount of time, I found the message board. It took a while to get used to it (truth be told, I'd never been to an Internet forum before this one), but, after only a few weeks of lurking, I made my first post sometime in May. I don't remember what it was; it was a reply to somebody else's post, a fairly safe way to start posting, in my opinion. Once more it didn't take too long for me to take the next step and try to start a thread.

I must admit, I was kinda nervous about the whole thing. After all, the people here, for the most part, seemed to be far more educated than me and a great deal of threads, it seemed, were more analytical than I'm truly capable of being. I may even have gone back to being a lurker quickly if not for one thing: one of my first few posts was one titled "Warren Was Not A Misogynist". There wasn't much content in it, it was relatively short, and basically just expressed my belief that Warren didn't hate women, but rather hated people in general. The responses I got were pretty much all disagreements, and soon I came to see why there was the popular view of Warren being specifically a misogynist. But there were no signs of someone tearing my post to shreds, only well-reasoned opinions from a different angle. Then, something glorious happened: the number of responses grew, sub-threads sprouted into being, and whole new topics appeared across the threat. My simple post saying "Warren Was Not A Misogynist" created a truly enormous thread that stretched far past the border on the right of the screen and took up nearly the whole forum. The idea that a post by me could generate so many responses was exhilirating. I became a dedicated poster.

I never repeated the success of the Misogynist thread. However, most of my posts, while no where near as deep or long or well thought-out as many of the others on the board, usually got a fair number of responses, and I liked it. However, I always have been aware of the fact that I'm no shadowkat or Rahael. Still, I am glad this thread has gone off on such an entertaining tangent. Thanks, dream of the consortium!

Truthfully, I don't find the Internet that limiting an arena for communication. I think it may be the fact that, in person, I'm awkward and have trouble expressing my thoughts as they appear in my head. Communicating with writing allows me to think about what I'm about to say thoroughly and avoid some of the awkwardness I experience when around people in person. Also, the Internet has been a great boon to me, because, in real life, I know hardly anyone who watches Buffy the Vampire Slayer, so, if I want a desire to do some BtVS talk, it's off to the Internet I go.

Thanks again, dream, and I hope you start posting again soon. I do remember liking many of your posts.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- Rahael, 16:05:20 11/07/02 Thu

"I never repeated the success of the Misogynist thread. However, most of my posts, while no where near as deep or long or well thought-out as many of the others on the board, usually got a fair number of responses, and I liked it. However, I always have been aware of the fact that I'm no shadowkat or Rahael. Still, I am glad this thread has gone off on such an entertaining tangent. Thanks, dream of the consortium!"

Wow! I didn't realise I was even bracketed with such people! Thanks Finn!

and by the way, 16? I'm falling off my seat with shock! I totally thought you were in your late 20s early 30s!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I Thank You, Too! -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:48:38 11/07/02 Thu

I was afraid it might be too obvious how young I was.

[> [> [> [> [> [> It's funny... -- BunnyK., 17:36:53 11/07/02 Thu

But I've always found it much easier to converse in real life than on the internet. I've been in chat rooms, in forums, and played online games, and without fail I'm awkward and insecure. My personality just doesn't transfer well to print, I guess. So, I guess in that way the internet is very limiting for me. Since I don't have confidence in my ability to communicate clearly over the internet, I pretty much limit myself to lurking. However, I still get a lot of enjoyment out of this board. It seems like everyone here is dazzlingly intelligent and interesting, and I think it makes the show that much more interesting to hear all of your opinions.

[> [> [> [> [> Guess I'll go eat worms... -- Sara, 15:44:54 11/07/02 Thu

First off, I really enjoy your posts D of C, and hope you'll keep on posting, but posting is an odd experience. It does bring up some of my worst insecurities, which is quite surprising, due to the "all strangers here," "why should I care" aspect, of this activity. I keep saying I'm going to stop posting, and go back to lurking once removed, and somehow end up right here, typing my little heart out.

There is something almost dangerous in joining this type of community - on the one hand, it's amazing to be able to interact with people who have such different experiences and lives; on the other hand communicating without seeing someone's face, and hearing the inflections they put in their voices is, well, problematical, I guess. I know that I'm sending a very different image of myself to all of you then you would get meeting me in person. So I should be even less sensitive, right? Well rationality has never been one of my strong points...but somehow this semi-anonomyous but not really form of communicating can really hit areas we're vulnerable in. It's funny how it's different things that set us off - for example, I don't mind if people strongly disagree with me, that's normal interaction, yet not being responded to feeds into huge insecurities I've been fighting with forever. One thing about posting, sometimes I don't even realize my point until I'm in the middle of making it. My normal life involves some form of response, negative or positive - therefore either works for me, and I'm good. No response at all, is way out of the norm, so I have to obsess, read into, and generally make myself crazy over, even though it's nothing personal. (Nothing personal other than none of you love me, all of you hate me, guess I'll go eat worms...)

Darbs is standing over my shoulder looking to get me to the kid's band concert so I'll end here.

- Sara, who'll be glad to eat worms as long as they're chocolate covered

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- fresne, 17:02:28 11/07/02 Thu

Why do I post?

Because I am thoroughly and hopelessly addicted to reading the posts here. The board has such an incredibly rich and varied base of writers.

As in any community when posters withdraw for reasons of time (real life with its long clutches) or melancholy, it is the community which is the less.

I don’t post nearly as much as I read and reading the thoughts of others has helped spark ideas that I never would have even contemplated.

I only tend to post when I have something to say. Hmmm…that sounds wrong. I post when the compulsion to say something overwhelms the constraints of time and obligation.

Hmmm…as to personal details, I guess long time, but not voluminous posters, aren’t sure of just how much to say, since the details that we’ve said previously lie vivid in our memories. The fact that they are not so vivid for others is difficult to get around.

I was surprised to discover at one of the get togethers that some posters thought I was a man. Living 24x7 in my female body, that made for a startling observation about the anonymity of our posting and the impressions that we can give.

I post because I write for a living. Whereas in my work as a technical writer, I write often very dry prose, here I have the opportunity to stretch into metaphor and image. I write to express myself in a way that normally I cannot.

Conversely, I will admit that my experience as technical writer does help a bit. I spend a great deal of time researching, writing, formatting and editing documents that people on the whole do not want to read. Since, part of my job is relentlessly badgering my reviewers/data sources for comments, it’s hard to get too excited about responses or lack thereof to posts. And after a few grueling meetings reviewing my documents, let’s just say that it is a pleasure to be able to just skip threads that are growing too vehement.

Puzzling through all of your perceptions helps me to create a sense of textual richness. In that BtVS is so metaphoric, it is the perfect medium with which to express the puzzle inside a metaphor within a conundrum that is how I view my own life.

Personal detail. I wore a costume to work today and as I sit and type, I smile with glee that none of my co-workers realizes it. The buckled shoes, the tights, the plaid skirt, the sweater, the braided hair are all pointers to an event, my birthday. The irony of another year juxtaposed against youthful dress. Apparently, six costume changes in October were not enough. It never is.

I also write because it helps me clarify my thinking. In person, I can be a bit incoherent. In excitement, my mind races forward. I skip words. Tracks. Leapfrog between ideas. Writing forces me to clarify. To elucidate. To slow down.

Slow down to a musing. When I write a post here, I almost always picture a wheeling leaf floating in a gyre. Starting from the initial idea, which has prompted me to post, my words attempt to settle on the earth. To reach a point.

Thus, I’ve rarely had any vehement disagreements to any of my posts. It’s a bit hard to vehemently argue with a musing.

In an autumnal sort of way, it’s a pleasure to watch everyone’s posts whirl and dance in discourse, even if I never do know much about the trees that produced them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> happy birthday, fresne! -- anom, 23:31:24 11/07/02 Thu

Plus, it's always fun to hear about your costumes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Hope you had a great birthday, fresne! And nice post! -- ponygirl, 09:01:58 11/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> A collective thanks -- fresne, 17:12:42 11/08/02 Fri

I did indeed have an excellent birthday. I went through two costume changes in one day. Although, I did not get a chance to wear a tiara to dinner. I can’t remember everything. Well, any night is a good night for a tiara.

I have to admit it would practically impossible not to talk about costuming, so I’m glad it’s interesting and every so often relevant.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Happy birthday fresne! -- Ete, 17:22:06 11/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Coming late to the own thoughts on posting -- shadowkat, 18:08:20 11/07/02 Thu

First wonderful posts on this thread, I think I've read all of them now even though it took an hour because my home computer is slow - dial-up. And I've missed your posts dream, possibly b/c I often find myself agreeing with your take on the show and I remember the one that concerned you but only vaguely, I think i agreed with you at the time.

Odd that several people mention how depressions have stopped them from posting, I initially started posting as a result of a depression. I had been in an incredibly painful job situation and unable to fight or flee - I retreated to the internet and poured my heart out in Buffy essays, using the characters, the plot lines and themes of the show to work out personal issues in my life. Writing is the way I handle pain. It is also how I find pleasure. If I'm not writing I become quite cranky. Through the boards - I found an audience for my writing - a way to interact. I had written a novel - but very few people had seen it and getting a first novel published is a little like pulling teeth. So here I'd found a forum to express myself. I didn't really expect anyone to respond the first time I wrote and posted an essay. It was on Giles - the reluctant watcher (an essay I've since lost, don't bother hunting it in archives, it unfortunately only appeared on Buffy Cross and Stake way back in February 2002). My inspiration had been two posts, one by Linda Delurker on Willow and one by cjl on Willow. I thought - gee these are great, maybe I can do this and no one is writing anything on Giles (most of the posts were on Spike and Willow) - so I spent an incredibly slow day at work typing it out and posted. The replies blew me away.

Twenty people had responded to tell me how great I was.
So I started working my way through the characters...then people began emailing me, asking for copies. Someone asked me to set up a website - so they could access them. I started looking forward to going to work again - so I could check the boards and post essays. Of course this got old after a while, a few of my posts got fetid responses. Not every essay was loved. And my replies to other people - didn't always come off as I'd planned. (My writing is better when I get the chance to proofread it and post it from word onto the board. Not when I typed it freehand on the board like I'm doing now. When that happens? Tons of errors. Also less coherent.) But by that time? I was more or less hooked. A poster/lurker on B C & S asked to post one of my better essay posts to Atp, and I followed it. In time I became addicted to the intellectual discussion on the Atp board and have met many of my online friends through it. I've since left B C&S due to the spoilery nature of the board (I've gone off Spoilers entirely) and the board's annoying obsession with ships to the exclusion of almost everything else. Tend to like a broader range of posters and discussion. Makes life more interesting ;-)

You mention the faceless nature of the internet world. Interesting. I've met some of the most wonderful people here. Not in chat room. But through my posts and email. (I've often included email with a post or people can email me from my site.) One of my online friends, I've never met in person, she lives in Japan and I live in NYC, so it's a tad difficult. But she sent me a beautiful bouquet of flowers congratulating me on getting up the nerve to quit the job that had been making me miserable for a year. Three other friends I've met here, have sent encouraging emails to me, keeping me sane at work and supporting my posts and decisions. And of course cjl and I've gotten close. I've meet Darby and Sara (whose posts I adore, even though I don't always get the chance to respond, slow connection and all that, please post more Sara!! I love your responses and often agree with them), Tillow, Rob, anom in person. And interacted with many more lurkers and posters both by email and on the board. These people got me through a horrible time in my life and made me appreciate Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Series far more than I ever would on my own.

God this is getting long. Should wrap it up. The main thing posting and lurking on boards has done for me is made me realize that I'm not alone. There are others out there, quite a few apparently, who feel bored at work, scared, depressed, love fantasy and science fiction and comic books, love writing, and enjoy discussing ideas in a fun and safe environment.

Want a recent example of how this board has helped me?
Last night I was feeling a little bummed and a little discombobulated. I'd just seen possibly the scariest movie I've seen in a long time, the Ring (if you see it? see it in a movie theater not on tv screen, trust me. And not alone. I saw it with a friend. And it still unnerved me.)
So I came to the board and laughed my head off. The atmosphere was light and fun last night. Particularly the thread about kittens overrunning Spike's old crypt.

Regarding the tough posts? And i've had a few of those.
You know the ones that make you want to throw stuff at the computer screen? I try real hard not to respond to them and let it go. Sleep on it. I also tend to avoid posters who make me angry or react negatively. If someone's posts consistently cause me to either dislike the show, the characters or the poster? I just stop reading their posts as rule, unless of course several of the people I will read no matter what respond to it. (The list is far too long to put here, suffice it to say it includes all of the posters who've responded to this thread). (Doesn't always work...there are times I give in to the urge to respond and more often than not regret it. But the fact that the response and the thread will be archived eventually and forgotten, helps a great deal.)

Sorry for the long ramble. Hope it made sense. Glad you posted again dream, I'd missed you. And loved reading the other posts.

SK (who isn't posting as much do to the fact that she's left the evil workplace and spending less time on the internet.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Guess I'll stop eating worms -- Sara, 19:30:09 11/07/02 Thu

Thanks shadowkat! I feel way better, being the paranoid type I was imagining everyone seeing my name on a post, and scrolling by it with disdain. Now I'll just imagine you reading it, and move on with my day! And thanks again for helping me to enjoy "Him" a whole lot more - you really turned me around on it.

- Sara, who putting away the worms, is now wondering if ants would be a crunchy treat (covered in chocolate, of course!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Am I the only one wondering about Darby's study subjects now? :) -- Sophist, 20:04:23 11/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just one thing on a long list to wonder about Darbs! -- Sara, who maybe should look into her choice of treats..., 06:54:30 11/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks - I loved your response -- shadowkat, 07:49:48 11/08/02 Fri

to my post on Him and your additional points. I just didn't have a chance to respond to it before it went to archives.

But rest assured I usually make a point of reading your
posts and Darby's. ;-) SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sara, whenever I see your name on a post, I go right to it... -- cjl, 08:01:55 11/08/02 Fri

In fact, I wanted to comment on your comment on my comment about Giles' killing of Ben and how it stacked up with Gunn's murder of Professor Seidel. I still think there will be repercussions for both Gunn AND Giles in the second half of the ANGEL and BUFFY seasons. (And if you think the Giles/Ben moral dilemma is old news...remember a certain fib that finally came to light in "Selfless"?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> emotions and posting -- Cougar, 23:11:05 11/07/02 Thu

I started watching Buffy by accident while going through a painful time of caring for a parent and a best friend who died six months apart, both after grueling illness. At first the show gave me a place where life and death, love and devotion, epic struggles mirrored my feelings. It felt a safe place to cry during a personal appocolypse.

I identified with Buffy's sence of devotion to duty, and her constant isolated struggling. No one around me at the time could get the core feelings I was experiencing for the first time.

The the show became more than a container for my overwhelming emotions and I began to actively think about the many aspects beyond that. I was motivated to understand the compexity of themes present. That helped me get beyond the initial lower order need I had for it.

Now it has room in my soul that is linked to raw grief but has taken me through many levels of thought and discovery. The richness of thoughtfulness on this board was a lifeline.

For a while it seemed to give me the only plesure I could feel. But the stimulation of new ideas helped me step beyond my depressed state of mind when it was still hard to concentrate on other things

Now it has become like a rich wine, bottled earlier, a bad year, but mellowed and refined and adding sensory pleasure to life again.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: emotions and posting -- Rahael, 01:50:00 11/08/02 Fri

Cougar, what a lovely post. I think I watch Buffy for much the same reasons that you do:

"I started watching Buffy by accident while going through a painful time of caring for a parent and a best friend who died six months apart, both after grueling illness. At first the show gave me a place where life and death, love and devotion, epic struggles mirrored my feelings. It felt a safe place to cry during a personal appocolypse.

I identified with Buffy's sence of devotion to duty, and her constant isolated struggling. No one around me at the time could get the core feelings I was experiencing for the first time.

The the show became more than a container for my overwhelming emotions and I began to actively think about the many aspects beyond that. I was motivated to understand the compexity of themes present. That helped me get beyond the initial lower order need I had for it"

My painful time lay in the past, but not healed. And Buffy became invaluable, in exactly the two ways you mention - the lower order need, and the thinking about it need which keeps me 'new, tender, quick'.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: emotions and posting -- Cougar, 09:35:25 11/08/02 Fri

I would have joined the show even if I wasn't sad, there is something to think about on so many levels.

Buffy certainly adresses lower order need. JM even lost weight to make Spike look hungry. There is saftey, sex, food and shelter as issues. Then belonging and and feeling competant and useful right up to issues of soul and self actualization.

Spike looks less skinny at the moment. Since he is always very perceptive about feelings and motivations I hope we get a lot more on his evolution before things revert to "fight or flight"

The show is a complex and unpredictable environment, this mirrors how we feel when we go through something new and overwhelming that your peers may not have experinced. I had one dream that I was Buffy and I walked through my situation with her eyes and felt her confidence and unfailing devotion and it kind of recharged my batteries.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On Posting/Not: A lurker comes late, thinking the first try may have got messed--irony's ironic -- Haecceity, 11:02:52 11/08/02 Fri

Why I lurk---
No time, really. Which is a convenient excuse, as I seem to have the time to read, reflect and compose numerous mental replies (go ahead laugh, it’s a multi-meant word.J)
Maybe I lack the confidence, being new to the ‘Verse…
But oh do I love to read this board!!!
After my first ep …
(I’m a cinematographer, about to undertake grad school studying Visual Narrative, so was floored by the depth of “Hush”, both visually and metaphorically, the sophistication of the concept’s delivery and, c’mon, studying VISUAL NARRATIVE, here!)
…a random viewing on FX…I just HAD to find out about this show. (Not put off by the name, really, just missed the first couple years off making movies and “felt” the “you need to see this from the beginning”-ness of it. Alas, didn’t know any fans that were “out” enough to recommend it.

[Embedded note to other new viewers*spoiler for Season 2*…did anyone else realize upon finally watching BtVS that they’d kind of “known” what was going on in this show you’d never watched, maybe through advertising? Just had a funky “déjà vu all over again” moment when Angel went evil, thinking, oh, this must be why she killed him---weird, as I’d never seen it or known anyone who watched the show, and hadn’t yet read anything online.]

Did a search and found oodles of sites, mostly of the “Isn’t so-and-so hot” persuasion. Finally found a mention of ATP off a narrative theory blog, and discovered a metaphysic home. It’s the only place I’ve found that is able to deftly mine this incredibly rich story-source with big!plus such cerebral elegance, updated 24 hours a day. Needless to say, hooked. Big time. But I couldn’t post, just couldn’t, till I’d seen all the eps (thank the organizing principles of the universe for FX), attempted the Sargasso Sea of the archives (still paddling), and dug out the Jung and narrative theory texts (still packed from the last move, please forgive my creative paraphrasing)…in short, till I could come across as a not-stupid.

Speaking to dream’s (whose voice I’ve missed, BTW) original post:
This reluctance to post didn’t have much to do with a perceived sense of “be brilliant, with perfect spelling and punctuation…
[you may have noticed I subscribe to the e.e. cummings slightly naughty school of punctuation of “put it where it feels good”, all the while retaining my membership in the Grammar Punks band]
…or they’ll pounce on me.” In fact, I’d been surprised at the almost uber- politeness of the board. My first thought was that the moderator must be quite a demon to have trained an entire board so well. It was only later that I realized you were simply a pack of demons with a mutual politeness tolerance policy.

A RL and Buffyverse truism: There will always be trolls. Sometimes they cause casualties, but when they’ve gone their flaming way, we rebuild the Bronze. Please don’t stay away, I’ve got a thing or thousand to learn from you.

Speaking to the oddness of forum communication:
We take for granted the nonverbal. It has a comfort, this second language we absorbed before we were born, deeply reassuring to we social (downright sociable) predators. In this place of no faces we are nothing but a name, really, just bodiless voices. A name and words, which, despite their beauty, are essentially abstract. We have to bring meaning to words, and not everyone carries the same size/shape/material bucket. The wonder of words, though IS their abstractness. They match perfectly the abstractness of the concepts we prize the most---Love, Truth, etc. These abstract terms are often all we have in real life to express the complexity of our feelings—demandingly concrete, touchable things. And because we are bi-lingual, forced into a uni-lingual space, we have translation trouble, read into words meanings that may not be there. Don’t despair, though. The folks on this board are demons (integrated or no), used to walking in (between) two worlds.

So, for all us lurkers, thanks for the post, Dream. It slowed the merry- go-round just long enough for a bunch of us to hop on.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Very nice post!! -- Rahael, 11:08:41 11/08/02 Fri

"[you may have noticed I subscribe to the e.e. cummings slightly naughty school of punctuation of “put it where it feels good”, all the while retaining my membership in the Grammar Punks band]"

I like when posts really "sound" different. It gives the board extra crunchy texture!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Glad to have you here! -- Masquerade, 15:04:44 11/08/02 Fri

"Finally found a mention of ATP off a narrative theory blog"

Which one? Got a URL??

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- cynesthesia, might as well de-lurk myself, 22:37:02 11/07/02 Thu

Hiya all, haven't posted here since sometime late last spring, but this seems like a de-lurking kind of thread.

First of all, I wanted to extend my empathy to dream and all the people on the board who have problems with depression. As the line in the song goes, "this is not my idea of a good time." When I have a bout of it like I've had recently, it wreaks havoc with my concentration and energy, so writing anything becomes a time- consuming and frustrating task. Posting comes down to an issue of having to make the best use of my energy. I seem to be doing better lately (knock on wood) and will hopefully finish this post before next Tuesday. ;-)

I took a break from all things fandom over the summer and only slowly got back into it this fall. Typically I lurk by here a couple times a week now and still do the vigorous head-nodding thing. I decided to stick to lurking here because I knew any posting I did would be very erratic. (I've been sorely tempted by a few OT music threads though).

Interactions on the internet can be very tough. One can say some seemingly innocuous thing such as "I like the Beatles" and find oneself being blowtorched by a horde of angry Elvis fans. Er, not that I have any problems with Elvis fans (backing up, hands in the air). Making a joke, but maybe that is an example of something that happens in both life and fandom, especially when it comes to a TV show where highly subjective issues like personal preference and taste enter into it. Sometimes it's very easy to confuse "what people like" with "what they *are* like." I'm guilty of doing this myself, but it's become less of an issue as I've gotten older, erm, 44, to be exact. Probably, it also has something to do with having spent 16 years living with a decent, intelligent human being whose taste in books and movies continues to baffle me.

But some of the snap judgements and zero-sum game aspects of discussions in fandom do dishearten me. If I can get all quantum in honor of Supersymmetry, sometimes the light is both a particle and a wave. There have been times when I'm not even part of a discussion and the gamesmanship gets to me.

I never had a problem here with posts being ignored, though I think it happens to almost anyone who's online. When it has happened to me I've felt a bit sulky, but it hasn't necessarily deterred me from posting again. I believe someone once found that artists in a group exhibition whose work was ignored by reviewers felt more discouraged than artists whose work had been badly reviewed. Hmmm, might depend on *how* bad the bad reviews were.

I do notice when people stop posting and there are names I keep hoping I'll see resurface.

Usually, I'm slightly slower to come to judgement with someone online than I am in real life where I have the non-verbals to rely on. In the time I've spent on the boards, I miss those non-verbals more rather than less. Many people really love chat, but I just haven't been able to take that plunge yet.

This got longish. Thanks for starting the thread DotC. You actually got me to de-lurk.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Cynesthesia! -- Rahael, 01:51:14 11/08/02 Fri

There you are! You realise that you have yet to live down the glory of the OMWF post??

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hi! -- cynesthesia, 02:19:13 11/08/02 Fri

At the rate I'm going these days, I may turn out to be a one-hit wonder. For some reason, I can't seem to stay away from music analogies tonight. :-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On Posting and Not Posting: One Lurker's Long Response -- Philistine, 23:24:15 11/07/02 Thu

All right, I'll bite... as soon as I figure out where to start.

... thirty minutes later ...

Okay, I'm still stumped for an opening, so I'll just jump in. There are a few reasons, most of which will make more sense with a little background info first. I'll try not to overshare, but consider yourself warned.

I came late to the Buffyverse; for the first four and a half seasons I didn't have cable. Or a TV, for that matter. (Ah, those carefree student days.) And besides... well, I'd seen the movie. But I'd heard of the show, as time went by I heard more and more about it, almost all good. I started to wonder what I was missing.

Then I moved, bought a TV, and got cable, and a few months later my first episode of Buffy was the Season Six opener. The next day I started taping the reruns on FX. A few months later, I was pointed toward the ATPoBtVS site in a Buffy discussion on another, non-Buffy- related forum. Eventually I found my way to the boards here, where the discussion is usually interesting and civil, and I find that reading here generally does add to my enjoyment of the show. But I don't know what topics have been done to death here, and there's no equivalent to the FX reruns to bring a newcomer up to speed. So there's that.

Of course that's not all, though; that might slow me down for a little while, but it would hardly stop me cold. A bigger problem is that I have a very literal mind. ("Strangely literal" even, though of course without the excuse of being newly human.) While that can be helpful in the study of mathematics and computer science, I also tend to take my entertainment at face value. All the nifty metaphors and symbolism you people talk about? I don't see it. Not on my own, anyway - I generally understand it once it's been pointed out to me. But to see it for myself, without prompting? I'm about as likely to sprout wings and fly off into the sunset.

So though I enjoy reading the thoughtful commentaries here, some of which have greatly expanded my understanding and appreciation of the show, I really don't feel up to contributing at that level. Even commenting on the commentaries is mostly beyond my scope, because I just don't think in those terms. My handle is all too apt: I'm literate, but not literary. Not to brag, but I'm really pretty good at facts - details - minutiae - trivia. I'm not so hot with metaphor, symbolism, resonance.

Last but not least, there's the time issue. I work full time, and go to school part time (for now). I have a slow dial-up connection to the internet, and several different, mostly unrelated, interests. I don't get to read every post here. I don't get to read every *thread.* So it may be that I'm missing opportunities, posts at "my level," because of the need to skim. My loss.

And so I lurk, I have lurked, and most likely will continue to lurk.


This *is* an intersting form of communication, isn't it? On the one hand, the faceless anonymity is inevitably going to be tane by some as license to be as dishonest as the limits of their imaginations will permit. On the other hand, the same condition will be taken by others as an opportunity to open up, to be downright *painfully* honest. Not just about what they think of others, their fellow netizens; but about themselves, their own lives, fears, and feelings. And it can be difficult or impossible to tell which is which, so emotional risk factors can get pretty high. Very interesting.

[> [> [> [> [> [> 'Strangely Literal' -- Tchaikovsky, 02:29:13 11/08/02 Fri

Interesting thoughts, Philistine.

And with the 'stangely literal' characteristic, you're not only in the company of Anya, but also Joss Whedon. In the Season 4 DVD commentary for 'Restless', (does the US have this yet?) he says that he had problems with the free association necessary to write the dream sequences. He claimed that he was too literal-minded, and needed a framework.

So not a bad company to be in, hey?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: US DVD schedule -- Philistine, 07:57:30 11/08/02 Fri

We're not scheduled to get Season *Three* until January. Grr. FOX only knows when we'll get Season Four - you'll probably have Season Six by then. Argh.

And thanks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> The Board is a haven for the metaphorically challenged -- Sophist, 08:57:28 11/08/02 Fri

A bigger problem is that I have a very literal mind. ("Strangely literal" even, though of course without the excuse of being newly human.) ... I also tend to take my entertainment at face value. All the nifty metaphors and symbolism you people talk about? I don't see it. Not on my own, anyway - I generally understand it once it's been pointed out to me. But to see it for myself, without prompting? I'm about as likely to sprout wings and fly off into the sunset.

That's me exactly. The main reason I love to read the posts here is that so many people see things I miss. It doubles my enjoyment of the show.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Metaphors bring out the Grouch Marx in me. -- Darby, 09:31:12 11/08/02 Fri

His comment that he wouldn't want to belong to any club that would want him for a member...?

I often figure that if I immediately get a metaphor, it must be way too obvious.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeeks! Groucho! GrouchO! -- D, 09:33:26 11/08/02 Fri

...Am I the only one who carefully proofreads his text but tends to ignore the title?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Say the secret word, and the duck comes down... -- cjl, 09:52:04 11/08/02 Fri

"Duck? There's a duck?"

-- Buffy, "Lessons"

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Or Else -- Isabel, 10:54:53 11/08/02 Fri

I thought maybe Oscar the Grouch decided to try Communism.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Or Else - Love the Imagery - It's a post for the Sesame Street Board! -- Darby, 12:09:46 11/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The BtVS/Angel/Sesame Street Board -- Arethusa, 12:34:35 11/08/02 Fri

Oscar the Grouch's trash can is the Hellmouth, and the Scoobies must fight the Grouchettes to save the City Dump from being sucked in. Angel battles the Cookie Monster in an abandoned Nabisco factory, convincing the Elves to join in with him at the last moment. Fred is almost decpitated by a flying fudge-covered wafer. The Count falls in love with Buffy, and goes in search of a soul. Tune in next week!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> "R" is for Running Dog Lackey of the Capitalist Bourgoisie - - cjl, 12:47:55 11/08/02 Fri

BIG BIRD: So Jimmy--if you paid 5 cents for candy and 5 cents for a piece of chewing gum, how much money did you spend?
JIMMY (counts on fingers): 5 plus 5 equals...ten.
BIG BIRD: That's right Jimmy. And both "candy" and "chewing gum" start with "C"; what other words start with "C"?
COOKIE MONSTER (starting to sing): "C" is for c--

(OSCAR pops out of his garbage can, bonks Cookie Monster on the head and looks into the camera.)

OSCAR: What does "C" stand for? I'll TELL you what it stands for, kids! C'mon, move in a little closer, I'm not gonna bite you--well, not unless I have to anyway. "C" stands for a "criminal" socioeconomic system that deprives the proletariat of its basic rights as the engine of production in our industrialized world. "C" stands for the upper classes, repressing the downtrodden masses who--
ERNIE: Uh, Oscar?
OSCAR: What is it? I'm talkin' here!
ERNIE: "C" also stands for the Children's Television Workshop, who pays your salary, and has nicely asked you to knock it off. Save it for the union meetings, OK?
OSCAR: They're bluffin'. They can't intimidate me.
ERNIE: Well, they said if you don't knock it off, they could always give Elmo some more screen time. Kids love Elmo.
OSCAR (smiling into the camera): Sesame Street has been brought to you by the number "5" and the letter "C." Sesame Street has been brought to you by the wonderful people at the Children's Television Workshop....

(Sesame Street theme pipes in.)

ERNIE: Bert, who gave Oscar a copy of Das Kapital for his birthday?
BERT: Never found out. Personally, I think it was the Count. The Russians occupied his castle right after the war, and I kinda think there was some Stockholm Syndrome going on in there....

(Sesame Street theme fades out...)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: On posting and not posting -- anom, 23:25:04 11/07/02 Thu

I've noticed that I tend to post more around the edges of a thread most of the time, chiming in here & there rather than going into depth on the main topic. Partly this is because I don't have one of those jobs w/the long, boring stretches that would give me time to craft the kind of response I'd like to (the secret of my succ[inctn]ess), but it may also have to do w/my personality--the same part that makes me more an editor than a writer. I also don't start threads very often.

Those may be the same reasons I haven't had too many negative reactions to my posts--certainly nothing that made me consider leaving the board or going into lurker mode. When I have had them, they've usually come from posters who tend to do the same thing pretty often, so I didn't take it personally. Or maybe I'm too careful in what I say & don't often post things likely to set anyone off. But I have felt disappointed when I didn't get any replies at all, or when some little joke or aside gets the replies & my main point doesn't. There've been several times when I thought I'd come up with something interesting that I really wanted to see discussed, & it...wasn't. Sometimes I tried to bring up the same thing in another thread, or even a new one, but the one thing that worked was to say "OK [about one of those asides that was picked up on], but I was really hoping we could talk about...." And we did! All I had to do was ask. Well, that time, anyway.

Dream, I'm sorry to hear you're feeling depressed (but glad it's only mild). I'm never sure how literally to take a statement like that--whether a person is talking about an "official," clinical depression or something else--but if the bouts you describe occur on a regular basis, it may be a cyclic depression. I don't want to get too personal, & I'm certainly not asking you to put info out here that's private, but it might be worth talking to a doctor about. A lot more is known about depression, incl. the milder forms, than used to be, & more can be done about it for many people. (I hesitate to mention it, & for all I know you've already done this, & it's not my business anyway, but a lot of people are going through this who needn't be.)

I guess this is an example of how the Internet lets people know things about people we don't really know, although I'd say how a person posts/chats does tell you something about them. Of course, how people interpret that "something" varies, but the same is true in real life. And as several people have said in this thread, I've met a number of posters from this board, & I like all of them!

Anyway, I hope you feel better soon, dream, & I for one would like to see you post more!

[> [> [> [> [> Recapitulations -- Tchaikovsky, 03:03:52 11/08/02 Fri

The hardest thing about this board is to post on it. Be brave. Post.

I'm not sure if I have a lot to add to this subject which hasn't already been said, but I want to work through it nevertheless, almost clarify the thoughts in my own mind.

Posting on boards to me did start out as a plea for attention, to a certain extent. If you're entirely happy reading the superb discussion threads of everyone else, then lurking is for you. In essence, it's always going to take a few ounces of ego to get those 'message subject' and 'name' boxes filled in.

So what our my reactions when no-one replies to a post?Sometimes not surprised- it was a stupid point anyway; it's my fault for being arrogant enough to believe anyone cares about my views. But there's a two-layer reaction here. The first is anger at the other people for not loving you. That goes flat very quickly, because, in most cases, you don't know them, their families or homes, what they have to do for a living. You realise that it's paranoia, and you consign your unanswered post to fate of people not being around. But the second layer reaction is when you blame yourself. You think that you're just wasting board space; that you were too eager for validation. On this board in particular, you can feel a sense intellectual inferiority, because of the scores of scriveners posting every day. You blame yourself for arrogance. You try to put yourself in your place. And you allow your self-confidence to be trodden on.

It's the second part of the response which is the danger. I'm sure no-one's ever posted a message saying: 'You never replied to my thread! I hate you! Can I have your address so I can torch your home NOW?' The first thought is a passing one. The second one can be permanent, because we all seek for validation, and at Voy, the only means of validating somebody else's post is to respond to it. But the reasons people don't respond to postings do not count as a lack of validation. People don't post for many reasons. Time, completeness of answer, nothing more to add. Just a feeling that the subject isn't interesting to them or hasn't quite clicked.

It was this recognition which evrntually led to my ability to take people ignoring posts as a non sequitur from people not replying, and it led me to post fairly regularly. And the more you post, the more chance you have to chime with someone else.

Now, (and almost always for me), posting here is a joyful experience. I've never yet been insulted or offended by any replies to my posts. I've recently managed to abandon the quest for validation. And, to look at the glass as half full, writing a couple of your own thoughts in 5 minutes is much more fun than copying someone else's up from dialogue for 3 hours. A useful function but tiring.

The hardest thing about this board is to post on it. Be brave. Post.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Recapitulations -- Rahael, 03:42:57 11/08/02 Fri

Scriveners? I love that description! Can I steal it?

"It's the second part of the response which is the danger. I'm sure no-one's ever posted a message saying: 'You never replied to my thread! I hate you! Can I have your address so I can torch your home NOW?'"


"And, to look at the glass as half full, writing a couple of your own thoughts in 5 minutes is much more fun than copying someone else's up from dialogue for 3 hours. A useful function but tiring."

Too true!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> 'Steal' is such a harsh word... -- Tchaikovsky, 03:54:01 11/08/02 Fri

... I like 'expanding my vocabulary and sharpening its specific use' better. Use it as you will.


[> [> [> Here's some shallow end Campbell -- it's pretty cool -- pr10n, 08:10:59 11/07/02 Thu


The Enormous Cranial Wattage of most posters here is daunting indeed. Let me offer you a little Campbell knowledge, enough for laymen and Disney script writers, but not enough for insulting large academic departments.

Here's a link to what seems like an expurgated version of Chris Vogler's original memo to Disney writers, called "A Practical Guide to The Hero with A Thousand Faces":

It's the basis for his book, _The Writer's Journey_, which is a very fine tool for exploring the craft of storytelling.

If that doesn't suffice, here's a copyright infringement bonus: I have a clean copy of the original 7-page memo, and I'll e-mail it to you in Word format. Just let me know your address through my e-mail link above.

To Other Readers: I'll send a copy to you too, if you promise not to tell where it came from.

[Um, pr10n, you know about IP addresses and stuff, right? Disney will find out, and They will send a tutu-wearing hippo to bust your kneecaps.]

Ah well, suffer for my art.

[> Re: The Episodes of Drew Greenberg (Spoilers through 7.6) -- Doriander, 21:06:33 11/06/02 Wed

What Rob said. The Buffistas have coined Goddard New!Drew and Greenberg Classic!Drew. New!Drew however prefers to be addressed as the Ultimate!Drew (I'm not a minion, no. But I prefer him to Classic!Drew. I LOVE the vignettes within an episode wriiten by Greenberg. But the episode as a whole? Not so much).

But you make good points.

Re: gay jokes. Greenberg interestingly wrote for Showtime's "Queer as Folk" before he came onboard ME.

As to filming/editing, with the exception of OaFA, Greenberg always uses clever intercutting scenes that occur in realtime.

Smashed: Willow and Amy’s magick hijinks and the Buffy and Spike dance.
Entropy: The SG at the Summers’ house, The Trio, Spike and Anya in the Magick Box.
Him: split screen.

With you on the continuity.

[> If you're sixteen, I'll go back to teaching high school! -- luna, 06:49:43 11/07/02 Thu

[> [> Wow, everyone here is so nice to me. I feel special. -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:10:18 11/07/02 Thu

A "Him" question (spoiler) and a general question. -- Darby, 07:30:43 11/07/02 Thu

Was it just me or was the High Scholl cliquish-slash-humiliation stuff more cutting in Him than it used to be back when the Main Gang was in HS? It just seems that the old stuff was more stylized and less cringe-inducing. Or maybe it's that I see Dawn as somehow more defenseless than any of the Originals (where was all of the summer's Summers training in that alley fight?) and it's harder to take watching the abuse.

Other Topic - for over a year now, FX has supplied Intro to Buffy 101. Several of the posters here only really got into the show thanks to the eleventy hundred hours of cable exposure, and for a while at least Buffy on FX was doing really well - for a cable rerun show, at least. Does everyone here agree that our dear show suffers from "it's too silly to try - look at the title!"-itis? But being available must have increased the Buffy exposure base. I know that I look forward to the new ones more when I've been watching the old ones, is it fair to assume I'm not alone?

Why aren't the ratings improving? And I don't mean the season- opener ratings, but the regular week-to-week stuff, which has stayed fairly flat for a LONG time. Why haven't the FX reruns brought a slew of new people to the primetime version? Is UPN even really a network?

Comments? Theories?

[> Here's a weird question I've pondered too -- neaux, 07:46:38 11/07/02 Thu

Dont ask me why.. but we get the TV GUIDE at our house.. and this whole new season of Buffy, I never see any advertisements for Buffy/UPN Tuesday night ads in the TV GUIDE.

WB is all over the place promoting Dawson and Bird of Prey, Charmed and the lot..

So does UPN do any advertising? I thought Viacom owns CBS/MTV/UPN. Is there advertising on any of their cable stations for the upcoming shows?

[> [> Re: Here's a weird question I've pondered too -- akanikki, 08:50:37 11/07/02 Thu

Actually, I just noticed in the last week that UPN is promoting BTVS on Yahoo and on NetZero (an internet access provider). It struck me that this is the first time I've seen such ads outside of tv.

[> [> Re: Here's a weird question I've pondered too -- pr10n, 08:51:32 11/07/02 Thu

UPN ran a Buffy ad Monday and Tuesday on Yahoo. It was one of those floaty ads that finally settles down off to one side, with a click-through and everything. Maybe web ads are all the UPN Budgeteers are willing to spring for Buffy.

Or maybe they are well aware of their demographics and hit the web 'cause hey, that's where we are. Of course, that misses the point of increasing viewer numbers.

[> [> [> Maybe some answers -- Deeva, who is tired of being devilish for the moment, 09:13:49 11/07/02 Thu

The way I understand some of this is that UPN is not available in every area. But some people are able to watch the show by locating other local stations that might carry it but it takes a little searching.

As for the advertising, I have seen tv advertising for the show on other cable system channels MTV, E!, SciFi and so on. I've also heard a lot of radio advertising as well. I haven't come across any print yet.

I'm not sure why the numbers are flat but then the Nielsens are a mystery to me. I wish they would also keep track of the shows that people are also recording and watching later because of scheduling conflicts. I do alot of that. I know that TiVo has that capability.

[> [> Re: Here's a weird question I've pondered too -- vh, 08:01:54 11/08/02 Fri

Doesn't seem to be working for BoP; their ratings are falling like a rock.

[> Re: A "Him" question (spoiler) and a general question. -- Doriander, 08:43:46 11/07/02 Thu

Compared to say, the Cordettes who were actively humiliating and abusing Willow and Xander in the past seasons not for anything they did reallly but just because, the “cool” crowd in “Him” were not so much abusing as trying to get away from a persistant Dawn. And to me that makes the humiliation more cutting, characters acting pathetic. In S2’s “Reptile Boy”, I felt the same thing for Xander, when he agreed to dress in drag and made a fool of himself.

[> An answer (why I really love BtVS now, and hope this is the last series) -- KdS, 10:42:56 11/07/02 Thu

I think that one reason why the ratings are flat might be that the series has got a reputation (to a great extent justified) of being a very continuity-based show, to the point of excluding new viewers. I haven't seen the episodes, but from the discussion here I think that a new viewer would have been flatly bemused by say, Beneath You, or Selfless.

It's the great balancing act - depth of plotting and continuity of character are vital for real quality, but to a certain extent they act to restrict the capacity to reach new audiences. As far as I can see, BtVS passed this point at the end of S5, and in many ways I hope this will be the last season. This opinion may be coloured by the fact that I watched the last stages of Doctor Who at an impressionable age (a series that really was crushed to death by excessive continuity) and don't want to see it happen again.

[> [> Re: An answer (why I really love BtVS now, and hope this is the last series) -- Kristy, 11:16:53 11/07/02 Thu

I didn't start watching BtVS until after F/X's marathon last Thanksgiving. I'd always wanted to watch but felt I couldn't catch up. So with the marathon I thought, here's my chance! After that I started taping the episodes on F/X and still watching the new ones on UPN so some was a mystery for while but I stuck with it. It takes work to catch up now but it is so worth it. I try to pass the word to people I know who might like scifi/horror or just wonderful writing.

[> [> The continuity thing -- vh, 08:37:49 11/08/02 Fri

It seems to me that many of the best series have elements that continue and build from episode to episode: BtVS, Alias, 24, my favorite Star Trek, DS9, etc. All have recurring guests and story arcs. Heck, 24 takes it to the ultimate extreme. This is something that serial television can do for you that movies (except for planned series like The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars) cannot. In fact, if (as some suits would seem to wish) you want to reduce a TV series to the other extreme and try to make each episode stand on its own as much as possible, you always have a product that attempts to be a movie in miniature but fails miserably because the production lacks in time and money. What I always found irritating about regular series is that something major would happen between characters and the next week it would be as though nothing had happened at all. Zero continuity. At least now most series have at least some continuity.

But you're right, as well. Series with heavy continuity may often be superior (yeah, that's my opionion), but they take a commitment on the part of the viewer. The viewer must be drawn in and come back week after week to appreciate the nuances -- be it the depth of characterization (nearly impossible to achieve when you reset the characters every week, they never change or grow), the acting (better characterization brings out the best in the cast), the depth of plot (you're not going to get the resonance, forshadowing, twists, etc. -- you can simply be more novelistic in a series), or the potential for exploring ideas and themes.

So I quail at the reports that networks do not want commit to this kind of series because they do not perform well enough, particularly in re-runs (it doesn't help that they insist on running them in a partial run, or, worse, out-of-order). We have enough crime/police/law dramas and all I see is more and more on the horizon, based on their success.

Darn it, tune in to see Buffy or Sydney kick some butt (I speak not you, but to viewers in general). Or consider James Marsters' cheekbones, if that's your thing. Maybe you like monsters. So what if you see something that makes you say "Huh?" (Hell, if it's Alias, there's plenty that makes regular viewers say "Huh?" It's part of the fun!) If you stick around you might see something special.

[> Buffy Ad Campaign -- Elizabeth, 19:27:03 11/07/02 Thu

I go to Oakland University in Michigan. There has been a UPN advertising campaign all over campus, with fairly large sized posters with 1/2 of Buffy's face on the right, and dark blue on the left, sort of cut diagonally, with the text "Buffy Bites Back Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and on a black strip on the bottom, "All New Tuesday's 8 pm UPN Detroit" They also have posters for Haunted and Enterprise. I took one of the posters down for myself, but I have seen them in at least 2 different buildings on campus. So, at least in Detroit, UPN is reaching out to new viewers.

[> Re: A "Him" question (spoiler) and a general question. -- luvthistle1, 02:17:29 11/08/02 Fri

Was it just me or was the High Scholl cliquish-slash-humiliation stuff more cutting in Him than it used to be back when the Main Gang was in HS?

It's not more cutting, it just seems that way, because Dawn doesn't have any friends. So, she seems all alone in this, which is very *sad*. Where are Kit and Carlos?? It seem like no one likes Dawn, why come she do not have friends?
She has no one to talk to. When she tried to talk to Buffy, about the soul, Buffy was too busy. she need more "GOOD" friends her own age.

Buffyverse Banter with Bob & Susan (Spoilage!) -- GingerBob, 09:02:10 11/07/02 Thu

OK, folks, Susan (singed_cat) and I had a rambling conversation that touched on Spike's personality, the Spike/Buffy relationship, and various other things. We thought other people might be interested to read it and chime in with their own observations. Forgive us if you think we're just self-indulgent. And, standard disclaimer:

"The ideas and attitudes expressed are not necessarily those of the authors!"



Susan : OK, Did you catch everything this week? They tricked us & put a new Buffy on.

gingerbob: And it was the "Halloween flavored" episode I'd been missing!

Susan : Halloween? Well, maybe---it was rather silly, if you ask me...

gingerbob: Rather silly is just what I meant!

Susan: So, did you watch the Angel tape I sent you yet?…

gingerbob: (on Spike’s 'Angel' appearance ("In the Dark")) I always have like him better since he went to the vet.

Susan : I liked him bad. He was a really good badguy.

gingerbob: So, while we're on Angel... I'm a little uneasy about: a) Gunn's decision and b) what the implications (fallout) might be, in the context of their various talking up to then.

Susan : Yeah, that's the question of the hour these days. Kind of a no-win there. I mean, he kills the guy so she won't be changed by her course of action, but now their relationship is changed forever.

gingerbob: Exactly. Of course, it wasn't the sort of moment that breeds logical analysis.

Susan : yeah, logic was not in the building...

Susan : It'll be interesting to see if they can weather it. But I'm not sure they'll be a happy couple if they do.

gingerbob: Maybe she'll react by going to Wes, at least temporarily.

Susan : I don't think even he would want that… It was interestig to see that he wouldn't do anything to consciously break them up. He helped Fred because he loves her & because, I think, she finally wanted something from him, and, just maybe, because moral ambiguity loves company. But he told her Gunn was right, and supported what he said, and didn't say anything to increase their division. I have a feeling his Engliah upbringing just wouldn't find it, well, 'cricket'.

gingerbob: I'm getting a little impatient about Wes. Is he just in some kind of self-loathing funk, or... if he's up to something more concrete, I'd like to (as a viewer) find out where he's coming from. Like I said, impatient.

Susan : I have a good idea where he is. I admire him pretty greatly. I couldn't go on being good with that much self-loathing going on. He doesn't trust himself anymore. He doesn't know, as he told Fred, what kind of man he is. But he's holding onto the principles he believed in, hoping that eventually he'll come out of the tunnel. And toward that he's not burning his bridges with Fred.

Susan : But they still have to have a conversation about last season.

gingerbob: Or the others, really. And you're right.

gingerbob: SO GET ON WITH IT! (Sorry, impatience again.) "I did have a plan. A good one, too. But I got bored." OH, one thing did occur to me, about that whole "Ring of Amadala" business...

Susan : Hee hee-- Amara.

gingerbob: One could argue that it was out of character for Spike. After all, he was the one that asked Angel "Don't you ever get tired of fights you know you're going to win?" If he is "untouchable", then he's not putting himself on the line/to the test.

Susan : Yeah, but who's to say he wouldn't have gotton bored with the ring after awhile?

gingerbob: But why did he want it? Frustration/impatience?

Susan : Maybe he was trying to be a more mature vampire-- you know, take the long view...

gingerbob: Spike? I doubt it!

Susan : Well, think about it (long view)--he'd just had a bad break-up with Dru-- maybe he thought if he did something big like this she'd want him back.

Susan : I think he wanted it because it was a cool thing to pursue, and I think *having* it wouldn't have been as fun.
gingerbob: Yeah, I can see the "Ooh, neat" aspect, but IIRC he sought it as a tool to help him kill Buffy. Spike gets off on the fight. Therefore, would he "cheat" and thereby diminish his victory? Or perhaps getting the tool that does the job is part of the victory.

Susan : Maybe so. I think he really loved fighting Slayers, but it was that obsession that drove off Dru. So if he *kills* this one-- even if he 'cheats'-(And you're what? Shocked and disappointed? I'm EVIL.) then he might rid himself of his obsession for awhile. Not true, maybe, but classic obsession thinking-- 'after this one I'm done.'

gingerbob: Good observation.

gingerbob: And refresh my memory- what started the 'feud' between Spike and Angel? Was it newly bad Angel pulling Drew away?

Susan : Oh--Angel was not only GOOD, but protecting a Slayer. And he was Spike's role model for so much of his development, that to see him that way made Spike really hate him. Then later, you know, there was just the jealousy thing. You're right-- he did fool around with Dru a lot-- so it seemed he was always overshadowing Spike, and coming between him and whatever women were around...

gingerbob: And, I think, there was a subterranean 'admiration' that he was reacting against. Or maybe I'm using too much hindsight. But he was very slowly edging away from evil (and, to beat a dead horse, I've never accepted Spike being 'EVIL') and maybe didn't like finding some element of respect for Angel in the mix.

Susan : Hmmm-- can you elaborate a bit?

gingerbob: Well, looking from the vantage point of Spike becoming "Noble" (protecting Buffy and Dawn from Glory, for example), I wonder if that was already inside him. Spike has always struck me as someone trying to live up to something he perceives (being more evil than anybody, being NOT beneath the woman he loves...), and since at that point he was trying to be "the Big Bad", he would have been repulsed by an element of himself that was the opposite. I don't read Spike as being motivated by his evilness, so much as trying to find "self respect" by being good at being what he thinks he should be. The logical thing he, a vampire/demon/predator/killer, should be is EVIL. So he goes for that for a while. But that's really not who HE is, which is why he is, in fact, "Love's bitch". That is, love is what he is really motivated by. [Note: love and evil are not in this case polar opposites]

Susan : That 'living up to' thing-- another way of saying 'idealist?' and, then too, poet...?

Susan : I don't think they are in fact polar. CS Lewis makes the point that love doesn't save or damn you.

gingerbob: However, opposites or not, it proves difficult, once one has become good at love, to be evil.

Susan : Yup. Spike is, basically, a romantic…though I think it depends on who he loved. Dru is amazingly evil, insane, and all. Hey--! You could say that his loves were his muses-- They made him 'want to be a better man'-- to meet their standards.

gingerbob: (and we're back to not being beneath the woman he loves...)

Susan : But of course we got the sense Spike wasn't Evil enough for Dru-- she liked Angel. And he's not Good enough for Buffy. So he does it-- he becomes a better man. Which made me want to thump Dawn-- "So what, like having a soul will make him a better man?" Um, DUH, kid...

gingerbob: She has a valid point, perhaps!

Susan : But the thing is, Spike was in fact a good man *before* he was a vampire. He has lots of history as a badguy, of course, but now, the point is, he has a *choice*. He has a conscience to be motivated by. What I really loved last season was that he really felt something about hurting Buffy. Not guilt, per sey, but-- felt the space ache where guilt should be. He knew he should feel horrible, and that feeling wasn't there, and he hated it.

gingerbob: So, if he didn't have a conscience motivating him before, what was it?

Susan : Love, of course. She made him hate himself for not being human. Love was kind of a conscience substitute. We've seen it before. But Buffy knew it, so she wouldn't love him back. And--wackiness ensues.

gingerbob: Back to Dawn- Keep in mind that the context of that comment (soul makes the man) was with a lot of other appropriately confused responses to the people she's around. She's trying to figure out how being human works, as do all children, and things aren't seeming to make much sense all the way around. And Buffy can't really shed any light on it.

Susan : True enough. But Spike might be able to.

gingerbob: Don't you dare "not spoil" me with some veiled hint!

Susan : Unspoilered speculation-- purely I think if anyone can shed light on what it is to be human it would be Spike. Doncha think? ! Also, it’s nice to see Dawn’s contempt for Spike's actions were unmitigated by her crush on him.

gingerbob: Crush? I don't know. I think it's more that she's never really distinguished between Spike, the "corrupted" evil vampire (as others see him), Clem the demon, and the human scoobies. She takes them at face value.

Susan : True-- things must be confusing for her. And where *is* Clem these days, by the way?

gingerbob: Which perhaps is one reason she is very off Spike right now- he was her most dependable friend/ally, and did the most betraying thing to Buffy, whom despite the rivalry/tensions, she dearly loves. ...And I miss Clem too.

Susan : I know-- when Spike said, "I have nowhere else to go", I added for him, "--Clem won't leave my crypt!"

gingerbob: Yeah- why CAN'T Spike go back there?

Susan : Um.....all I can figure is symbolism--because it's where he lived before?

gingerbob: Yeah, good enough. After all, they never explained why he was lurking in the [school] basement in the first place. (though I thought, and may still, he was "brought" there by the "je ne sais quoi" demon.)

Susan : And--this question hasn't come up except in my head, but I'll answer it anyway—

gingerbob: oh, like Jeopardy?

Susan : Angel spent 80 years trying to be evil again and pursuing Darla and generally being wretched. Spike won't take that long to go through his transition, 1) because he sought out his soul and 2) because he wasn't in the state of evil Angel was in anyway. He's making a conscious choice to be a better person.

gingerbob: Well, he kind of did go through that while he was rebelling against the chip. And he does have some old habits to "reprogram"!

Susan : right--(he's been through that) At least he doesn't have to reprogram all at once-- he's had the Initiative Halfway House Course...

gingerbob: Hey! Did grabbing RJ's jacket constitute "attacking"? I didn't see him flinch...

Susan : and that crap Buffy said about not helping him out of pity was just that. Pity, pity, pity! And it's OK-- compassion is a good thing.

gingerbob: I think Buffy really doesn't know, or maybe want to accept, (it is, after all, complicated) how she feels. But I sure as hell would be impressed if someone went and got a soul for me! You KNOW those things don't come cheap!

Susan : I don't think she really does love him- she wouldn't let herself. But I think she knows somewhere in the back of her head that, now, she might be able to.

gingerbob: Close enough!

Susan : And, moreover, I think now she wants to.

[> Angelus-evil versus Spike-evil -- SingedCat, 07:30:31 11/08/02 Fri

****gingerbob: Well, looking from the vantage point of Spike becoming "Noble" (protecting Buffy and Dawn from Glory, for example), I wonder if that[tendancy] was already inside him. Spike has always struck me as someone trying to live up to something he perceives (being more evil than anybody, being NOT beneath the woman he loves...), and since at that point he was trying to be "the Big Bad", he would have been repulsed by an element of himself that was the opposite. I don't read Spike as being motivated by his evilness, so much as trying to find "self respect" by being good at being what he thinks he should be. The logical thing he, a vampire/demon/predator/killer, should be is EVIL. So he goes for that for a while. But that's really not who HE is, which is why he is, in fact, "Love's bitch". That is, love is what he is really motivated by. [Note: love and evil are not in this case polar opposites]********

I'm still not sure about this. Especially about Spike being EVIL. Maybe he didn't want to destroy the whole world, but that was becuase he wanted to go on slaughtering people and bathing in theior blood with his girlfriend for all eternity.

It's an interesting take on evil. Angelus was always more depersonalised, whereas Spike seemd more, well 'hands on'. Which is more evil? Ummmm....not really sure that there's a degree there. Certainly Angelus wanting to destroy the world was more damaging (Quick side-question-- does that make it more evil?), but I hold to the idea that his determination to do this was inspired mainly by his relationship with Buffy. If he had never met her, or if he had killed her before, I doubt he would have undertaken such an ambitious course of action.

Maybe the best arguement for the degrees of evil were what they got out of their actions. Angelus found deep satisfaction--and sexual stimulation-- in acts causing pain and suffering in helpless human beings. Spike got his satisfaction in confronting an evil and vanquishing it-- more of an evil champion, as the wish-demon told him. It showed in his other actions too-- he took pleasure in defeating anyone who got in the way of his purposes, but those purposes changed with whatever he wanted at the time. Slayers were his particular obsession, and he sought them out the way a knight errant seeks out dragons.

So if Spike is a kind of champion for the forces of evil, what does that make Angelus-- someone dedicated to the perpetuation of depravity and mayhem in the world for its own sake-- I suppose one could call him a kind of evil saint-- an avatar of entropy and the forces that make the world fall apart.

[> [> Re: Angelus-evil versus Spike-evil -- Pilgrim, 12:02:58 11/08/02 Fri

I like this metaphor--Spike as champion of evil, Angelus as saint of evil. Spike "acts out" in the world, fighting, causing revolutions and panicked mobs. Angelus gets inside individuals, making their nightmares real.

Both are equally evil, but in different ways, imo. To me, Angelus' evil deeds seem more personal, and Spike's seem less so. Angelus likes to get close to his victims, torture them, make them miserable or crazy before the kill. Spike seems more interested in causing chaos and less interested in getting close enough to see the fear/misery in his victims' faces--look at how gleeful he was in the second-season episode Halloween, and how excited by the mobs in Fool for Love and Bargaining. He likes unpredictable violence and smashing stuff. He really gets off on the danger posed by the unpredictable nature of the whirlwind. I imagine he would gleefully arrange a sixty-car pile-up, then stand close enough to get hurt himself, and get all giddy at the impact with twisted metal and body parts flying all over. Angelus probably would be bored by such a thing because he wouldn't be twisting any minds, hearts, or souls.

Spike does seem to take the Slayers personally, but his interest in them seems to arise from the danger they pose to him--the thrill of accepting the danger and overcoming it by killing the slayer. As you suggest. Whereas Angelus kills individual humans because he loves exercising power over them, Spike, I think, kills nonslayer individuals mostly to eat, or because he's bored, or maybe to entertain Dru, or because they are in his way, or some other pragmatic reason. So which is more evil?

[> [> [> Oooh, this is good... -- Masq, 13:02:34 11/08/02 Fri

I'm going to borrow this for my Spike vs. Angelus' philosophies of evil section....


[> [> [> [> Re: Oooh, this is good... -- Pilgrim, 13:16:51 11/08/02 Fri

Really??? Cool!!!

[> [> [> On Angelus and Destroying the World -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:47:23 11/08/02 Fri

There have been two occassions where Angelus was presented with the opportunity to cause the Apocalypse. The first time was with the Judge in Surprise/Innocence, the second was with Acathla in Becoming. The first time around, Angelus seems lackluster about the end of the world, all though he does lend a hand. His interest seems more in using his state as Buffy's ex to torment her. But, when Becoming comes around, he's all set to suck earth into Hell. Why the change? I don't deny that Angelus's obsession with Buffy is part of what drove him to open the mouth of Acathla, but there is another factor. The Judge's method was to destroy humanity one by one, physically snuffing out any creature that wasn't pure evil. I imagine Angelus would find this rather boring. After all, the burning sensation only seems to last a moment, and then it's over. Acathla, on the other hand, was described as sucking the world into Hell so that all souled creatures would suffer horrible, eternal torment. This is the key difference: the Judge would destroy humanity, Acathla would torture them eternally. For the true sadist (which Angelus definitely was), there must be no greater pleasure than causing six billion people to suffer for time never ending. It would be his version of heaven.

[> [> [> [> Urk... -- Masq, 15:00:29 11/08/02 Fri

"For the true sadist (which Angelus definitely was), there must be no greater pleasure than causing six billion people to suffer for time never ending. It would be his version of heaven."

Considering that Angel got his soul back shortly before all this was to have happened, can you imagine the amount of brooding he would have had to have done over that?


[> [> [> [> [> Urk indeed -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:09:07 11/08/02 Fri

Think of those poor demons in Acathla's Hell dimension. Angel would be tormenting himself so much over the massive pain he inflicted on the world that any torture they inflicted would be meaningless. Let's turn our sympathy their way, shall we?

"I (heart) Spike" bumper-sticker -- Farstrider, 09:40:47 11/07/02 Thu

On the way home from work I've seen a car with a couple bumper stickers that made me think of y'all. The first one says "I love Spike" but instead of "love" there's a heart. The second one says "A bigger Spike for a better world."

Any of you the guilty party?

PS I saw the car traveling North on the Pasadena Freeway around 7 PM or so. (In case you were wondering, I was the car driving too fast and blaring my home-made OMWF soundtrack).

.. Farstrider

Marsters interview--maybe old? -- luna, 11:02:49 11/07/02 Thu 2.htm

Maybe everyone but me has seen this already, but he talks about his views on Spike, the rape, the soul, etc.

[> joss interview, definitely old (fresh air rebroadcast tomorrow) -- anom, 13:58:19 11/07/02 Thu

Just heard that this will be on Terry Gross's program Fresh Air tomorrow (Fri., Nov. 8). What I didn't know till I checked the program's website was that it's a rerun (or "archive edition," as the program likes to put it). Here's the info from the site:

"Joss WHEDON, the creator of the movie and TV series 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer.' He is executive producer of 'Buffy' and co-executive producer of the Buffy Spin-off 'Angel.' WHEDON also writes for both shows. Before working on Buffy, WHEDON wrote for the TV series 'Roseanne.' He also writes screenplays. He has worked on the scripts for such films as Alien Resurrection, Twister, Toy Story, Speed, and this summer's X-Men. (THIS INTERVIEW CONTINUES INTO THE SECOND HALF OF THE SHOW.) (Joss is pronounced like 'Floss,' Whedon is WE-den). (original airdate: 5/9/00)"

Over 2 years ago! Oh well. We can hear "Floss" (?!) talk about the then-upcoming season 5 & listen for those true-but- misleading gems. Think he said anything about Firefly back then?

You can find when/if the show's on in your area at the Find a Station page.

A thought about Buffy's hairstyle in "Him" -- LadyStarlight, 12:16:00 11/07/02 Thu

Being as how I'm too laz-- uh, sick to sort through a bunch of messages on this board & the Trollop board to see who was complaining about Buffy's hair (except Honorificus), I thought I'd just post this here.

Now, Joss has said that the 'theme' for this season is 'Back to the Beginning', right? It struck me, on a rewatch, that Buffy's hair is pretty much identical to her first season style. Sneaky? Hairstylists getting bored? Somebody lost a bet?

You call it. I think it's a subliminal way of reminding us of that first season, myself.

[> And the dark plaid skirt ensemble... -- AurraSing, 14:20:07 11/07/02 Thu

Kind of a reverse "Heathers" look or as my friend Tracy likes to call it,the "Catholic Schoolgirl from Hell" look.

Definitely not something we have been seeing Buffy in for a long,long time.

[> [> It reminded me of Darla's skirt in "Angel" -- Sophist, 14:30:52 11/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> Yes that other female predator.....;) -- Rufus, 14:35:32 11/07/02 Thu

[> [> At least it helps me to not think of the unhealthy low body fat percentage she has. -- VampRiley, 18:03:17 11/07/02 Thu

I, for one, don't need to see every muscle within a woman's body. Makes it looks too much like a man and I am not interested in thinking about a woman who has as many muscles showing as my neighbor. (shivers) At least the baggy clothes helps me to forget about that part. Makes them look a little more like they're not that unhealthy. Same goes for Anya.

Some people have dimples. Others have canyons.

I prefer dimples.


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