December 2003 posts

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"Allergies" and Angel -- shambleau, 20:06:22 12/20/03 Sat

I watched a batch of S5 BtVS over the last couple of days, since I just bought the DVDs. I started with IWMTLY and finished up with The Gift. There were tremendously moving moments in almost every one of those eps. Not every one hit me hard this time, since I've seen them before, and some of the eps didn't do that the first time. Even so, they affected me on some level at the time and still do.

So, I started thinking about AtS and the moments there that moved me toward the allergy tissues. And there weren't that many.

The ones that affected me the most turned out to be eps with Buffy (IWRY) and Faith (5x5 and Sanctuary, Faith's scene in prison with Angel). There were non-Buffy related ones, too, of course: the video scene at the end of Hero, the scene when Angel was waiting for the end with the old woman in AYNOHYEB.

This may seem like an attack on Angel, but it's not. Some of my reaction is probably related to the fact that I get a lot more upset when it's a woman who's bearing the brunt of a tragedy. Although I think there are other reasons, I'm willing to concede that may be why I was dry-eyed at the end of Home when Angel made his sacrifice of Connor. Or, when Holtz jumped into the hell dimension with baby Connor, or when Holtz had to kill his own daughter.

But I wasn't moved to tears when Darla killed herself, when Lilah died, when Fred broke up with Gunn, or even when Cordelia was in the hospital in To Shanshu in LA and came out of it to the loving looks of Wesley and Angel. All cases with women. I'm not saying that any of these scenes weren't dramatic or didn't suck me in. They did. But they didn't rip my heart out.

I can't decide whether it's me or that the show is not aiming for the tear-ducts the way that BtVS did. Why is Wesley with his throat slashed and being attacked by Angel less moving to me than Buffy and the Aprilbot on a playground swing? Wesley's situation is tragic, after all, as is Angel's. And again, I'm not saying that that isn't a great scene. It's just more of a jaw-dropping "Man, things are so screwed up, how will they ever be friends again" feeling that I get out of it.

Do other people find themselves with lumps in their throats a lot? More than with Buffy, the same, or less often? Maybe they could list the scenes?


[> Re: Darla's sacrifice in the alley get me every time -- Brian, 20:09:55 12/20/03 Sat

The whole scene is wonderful, especially with its chilling Holtz ending.

[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- CW, 21:17:39 12/20/03 Sat

It just varies from person to person. Personally, I find the scene on the swings in IWMTLY the worst sort of bathos. It makes me more angry at Buffy (for drawing life lessons from what I consider Epsenson's vacuous twaddle in this ep), than I am sympathetic with April. Obviously other people don't react as negatively to it as I do.

There are scenes in a number of eps that give me a lump in the throat, sometimes. But, often it depends on how I'm feeling otherwise at the moment.

On the other hand, the one scene in The Body I can't watch without getting weepy is when Buffy tells Giles they're not supposed to move "the body." To me it's the moment when the full force of her mother's death hits her. Later I always get a different sort of lump in my throat when Tara and Buffy are talking alone in the hospital. I've been on both sides of that particular kind of conversation, and can feel what both of them are feeling.

Also the whole scene between Buffy and Dawn at the end of Forever when Dawn has to decide not to bring their mother back gets me everytime.

[> [> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- shambleau, 19:45:09 12/22/03 Mon

Yeah, I've heard other people react negatively to the Buffy/April scene. YAllergiesMV goes without saying. What I'm responding to in the scene is Buffy's unexpected kindness and April's innocence. The life lessons stuff was ham-handed, I agree, but only bothered me much in the next scene, with Xander.

[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- Ray, 11:10:16 12/21/03 Sun

In To Shanshu in LA, Angel looking over Cordy and Wes in the hospital was very sad.
Five By Five with Faith in the Alley

[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- sdev, 00:20:42 12/22/03 Mon

Wesley on the phone with his father at the beginning of Belonging. I just rewatched that and it got me once again.

[> On second and later viewings -- KdS, 02:39:52 12/22/03 Mon

Wesley's fit of absurdist giggles in Angel's room in Loyalty, just before the earthquake reconvinces him.

[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- Jaelvis, 07:46:49 12/22/03 Mon

I get misty-eyed in Epiphany when Kate and Angel are having that talk about how nothing really matters in the big picture so the smallest act of kindness is all that matters. Then Kate says she's convinced that there is a higher power or the PTB's or something out there. "We aren't alone in this," she says and then procedes to tell Angel she believes that because she never invited him in. Ooh. That scene sends chills down my spine.

[> [> no invitation -- skeeve, 08:43:36 12/22/03 Mon

Once upon a time I read a short story about a boy who experienced his brothers feelings, even his dreams.
The story made it clear that the "echo" often lasted longer the original, especially for very unpleasant feelings.
He'd been told that heaven was a nice place and that when the time came he and his brother would surely go there.
The time came for his brother earlier than expected.
He died scared while hiding in a closet from other boys.
He might have been literally scared to death. I'm not sure.
The class of which I was a part was assigned to write an essay to answer the survivor's question: If heaven is a nice place, why do I still feel his fear?
I gave what was to me the obvious answer: for the same reason, whatever it was, that he always experienced his brother's fear after his brother was over it.
The teacher was *NOT* happy.
She actually handed me copies of two other essays on the subject as examples of better work.

Here is another obvious answer: Angel didn't need an invitation because Kate didn't live there anymore.
She wasn't dead, she had just decided to go elsewhere and was actually on her way out.
Imagine that she had a U-haul in front and was going out the door for the last time.
Angel walks in past her (no invitation needed) and persuades her to stay.

[> [> [> Re: no invitation -- Ray, 16:56:41 12/22/03 Mon

good analogy. and your answer to the essay question makes sense to me.

[> I'm the same way, and I'm a bigger "Angel" fan -- Scroll, 11:22:52 12/22/03 Mon

I love Buffy, of course, but I'm more an Angel girl. I prefer the intense arcs, the tighter continuity, the atmosphere and tone of the show, and the grittier characters and morality. There's a visceral quality to Angel that I feel Buffy lacks. That "jaw-dropping 'Man, things are so screwed up, how will they ever be friends again' feeling" that you mentioned -- I love that.

OTOH, Buffy is the show that makes me cry. Buffy, Willow, and Dawn always set me off. Tara at times, Cordelia in Season 3, even Anya in some seasons get me a little misty. Spike has, on occasion, made me shed a tear. Giles, Xander, Riley, and Oz -- not so much, though I do feel for them.

Compare these with Angel, a more mature Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Connor, Lilah, Darla, Faith, etc. These guys are harder, older, more seasoned and less "vulnerable" -- at least, that's how they come across on screen. I'm so busy being shocked by their actions, admiring of their courage, that I don't spare time to "feel" their tragedies with them. I sympathise, but don't empathise.

I can only think of a handful of Angel moments that truly and consistently move me to tears. "I Will Remember You". Doyle's death. ("Hero" had me bawling so hard, my roommate started getting nervous.) Faith's breakdown in "Five by Five" and her look of peace in "Sanctuary". Angel seeing Willow in the lobby and saying "Buffy" got me weepy all over again.

Darla's death only got me a little misty. Holtz kidnapping Connor through the portal, Wesley being rejected by his friends, Lilah's ghost -- only a vague desire to sniffle. OTOH, "Inside Out" and "Home" did have me crying for Connor.

So overall, Buffy has me crying a lot more than Angel. I think it's just their differing styles. Put them together and we get a wonderfully rich universe. One show has us bawling into our Kleenex, the other has us biting our nails down to the quick.

[> [> Re: I'm the same way, and I'm a bigger "Angel" fan -- phoenix, 10:53:15 12/23/03 Tue

I have to admit that I'm a bigger Buffy fan, and it has made me cry more often than Angel, probably because I'm more emotionally invested in the characters, but having said that, Angel has got me misting up a few times -

Doyle's death at the end of Hero got me hunting for the Kleenex, I had't realised how fond I had become of the character until he was suddely gone. Faith's breakdown at the end of Five by Five is still painful to watch, I think it's the only time we ever see her cry. Darla's death in the alley in Lullaby is beautifully done. However the one that had me really howling was Reprise, the moment after the lift ride to hell with Holland when Angel realises where the W&H home office actually is and finally loses hope, it hits me like a truck every time. Just a terrible way.

[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- punkinpuss, 12:21:10 12/23/03 Tue

With the reruns on TNT, I'm reminded of the more recent S3 moments that got to me:

Fredless - When Fred breaks down in front of her parents at the bus station and realizes that she can't run away from the truth anymore. I was sobbing right along with her.

Billy - When Wesley tells Fred he doesn't know what kind of man he is anymore, then moments later when he's closed the door and begins quietly weeping to himself. Absolutely kills me, every time.

There've been many more BtVS moments that got to me, but AtS is a different style of show, more "hard-boiled" if you will. Cathartic moments on AtS seem to come with less frequency and a good deal more of the problematic issues still attached. Faith's breakdown moment in Five by Five is incredible, but having seen what she's just done to Wesley, it makes it harder for me to empathize with her. I feel for her, but I can't put myself in her place. As characters get darker on AtS, the problematic protagonists can become harder to empathize with. We're more likely to get bittersweet noir truths rather than soul-cleansing catharsis.

[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- Dandy, 18:37:46 12/27/03 Sat

The Prom gets me every time, and Buffy sending Angel to hell.

various holiday wishes to all! -- anom, 20:58:34 12/21/03 Sun

Starting with a belated Eid mubarak for any Muslim posters, going on to an ongoing happy Chanukah for my fellow Jews, then a just-in-time (on the East Coast) happy solstice for the pagans out there, & an early merry Christmas for the Christians. (I guess both of the last 2 groups could be covered with "good Yule"!) As for the atheists & agnostics out there, you can pick & the least, it is still the solstice today, for everyone.

For another few minutes, anyway...better press "send."


[> Season Greetings... from a complete and total stranger! :-) (nt) -- Vapthorne, 21:09:27 12/21/03 Sun

[> The season's best, anom! And to all! -- CW, 21:28:23 12/21/03 Sun

[> Happy Holidays to all, however you celebrate it! -- Masquerade, 23:24:02 12/21/03 Sun

This agnostic always gets nostalgic around the end of December.... And misses the trees, the carols, the food, the presents, and the family.

[> I echo that and a Happy Chanukah to you anom! -- sdev, 00:08:53 12/22/03 Mon

[> Happy happy everybody! -- Pony, 05:37:51 12/22/03 Mon

[> Happy Everything to everyone!!! -- LittleBit, 09:45:52 12/22/03 Mon

[> Happy pantheistic winter holiday celebration, everyone! -- cjl, 10:53:35 12/22/03 Mon

[> [> Did someeone say pantheist? -- Masq, 11:49:34 12/28/03 Sun


Masq, a week late and a several hundred dollars short

[> Happy Holidays everyone! -- Briar Rose, 12:06:49 12/22/03 Mon

I'm nervous and excited and all kinds of things... First long term stay with my Significant Other's family. AT Christmas no less.*LOL

And for anyone else in this situation, my deepest wishes for calm, peaceful and enjoyable interaction. May you have a wonderful time and no unduly stressful surprises.

Speaking of stressful surprises.... I'm sweating a certain "Well, I want you to open your gifts at my place but I have to give one to you when we're there with the family..." said with that mysterious and slightly calculating face gift. If I can ask for prayers that I NOT Recieve any scary (commitmenty) jewelry this holiday I'd much appreciate it... And I'll reply with prayers that you recieve scary jewelry if it's your heart's desire.*LOL

[> A voice from the past... -- dub ;o), 13:37:10 12/22/03 Mon

vhD just e-mailed to wish me a Happy Solstice. Some of the older posters will no doubt remember him, and I'm glad he keeps in touch even if it's only once a year!

Happy Hannukah to you anom. Blessed Solstice, Merry Christmas, and Peaceful Kwanzaa to all.

And a special note to my friend Sara, from the Association for the Liberation of the Winter Festival: have a good one! Enjoy the lights, the music, and best of all, the FOOD!

dub ;o)

[> [> All of us at the A.L.W.F. -- Sara, 12:20:01 12/24/03 Wed

wish everyone a happy, happy, whatever and all!

Thanks dub!!!!!!

[> Season's felicity - Peace on earth, good will to all -- fresne, 11:33:11 12/23/03 Tue

[> Happy Shiny Midwinter type festival to all! -- O'Cailleagh, 18:40:25 12/23/03 Tue

Or Midsummer for those from Down Under!
Hope everyone has a wonderful time (even vhD!) and that all your festive wishes come true....(best be careful with that wishing though-you never know!). Love and Light and other such sentiments.

[> *sniffle* I just love the Holiday Season....:):):) -- Rufus, 05:19:11 12/24/03 Wed

[> Happy Whatever-You-Choose-to-Celebrate!! -- purplegrrl, 09:18:41 12/24/03 Wed

[> The very best WhateverYouCelebrate to all! -- Vickie, 14:41:05 12/24/03 Wed

[> Merry everything! Happiness to all -- mamcu, with love, 20:43:57 12/24/03 Wed

[> Winter festival best wishes. Forward to spring -- merry MsGiles, 01:54:50 12/25/03 Thu

[> Birds with womens' torsos indulging in 1950s pelvic rotation craze. -- Celebaelin, 08:01:42 12/30/03 Tue

Just stopping by briefly in the midst of my holiday season travels to say a non-denominational belated Merry Christmas and a pre-emptive Happy New Year. Catch up with you all in the (Gregorian) New Year.

In case you're wondering when exactly it was I went completely insane (a loooong time ago incidentally) the answer to the post title is...


Harpy Huladay.

Stick that in your cracker. Best Wishes to one and all.

This is going to be my last post... -- Marie, 02:45:03 12/22/03 Mon

...for a while, anyway! I just wanted to say have a wonderful Christmas, all of you!

My due date is the 28th of December, but I think I may be later, so maybe a New Year arrival?

They have a book in work on the date/sex/weight etc., and one kind soul has put 12lb 4oz!!!! I guess I have to wonder what I look like to him!! (On the plus side, other, kinder, folk have done all my Christmas shopping for me!)

Anyway, if anyone cares, I'll let you all know the result of our efforts in the New Year...

'Til then, Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i pawb!



[> Re: This is going to be my last post... -- Rufus, 05:25:01 12/22/03 Mon

I have to read carefully cause I thought you were talking about a turkey.....ouch!.....

[> Hope it goes fabulously! -- Pony, 05:32:57 12/22/03 Mon

[> And a wonderful Christmas to you too!! -- Rahael, 07:02:08 12/22/03 Mon

[> A baby for Christmas! -- dub ;o), 13:41:42 12/22/03 Mon

How cool is that? Have a great one Marie, and be SURE to let us have all the details on the Little Dickens!

dub ;o)

[> [> or for new year's! hey, maybe... -- anom, 22:15:59 12/23/03 Tue

...your baby could be the one to wear the "2004" sash!

No, wait...those babies age really fast...old by the end of the year...never mind. That'd be worse than giving birth to a 12-lb. baby!

[> Best wishes! -- Masq, 07:40:25 12/23/03 Tue

We expect a full report on this baby when you are ready to do the reporting. Remember, we may not be your real family, but we feel like family, being in on your romance, and your discovery that you were pregnant and all your pregnancy pains!

Take care and congrats,


[> Re: Best wishes! -- Aliera, 08:12:36 12/23/03 Tue

[> Best wishes, Marie -- LadyStarlight, 20:55:41 12/23/03 Tue

Hope everything goes well, and a pox on the person who put money on a 12 lb baby!

[> [> A 12 lb. pox! -- Dead (but it's not contagious) Soul, 22:25:06 12/23/03 Tue

For New York etropolitan area posters: finally--a star-studded Buffy con in our backyard! -- cjl, 11:03:18 12/22/03 Mon

Buffy Convention in Secaucus NJ March 20-21.
Creation is hosting a Buffy convention in the NYC area March 20-21, 2004.
Tix not yet on sale (except for gold weekend pass packages)

Updated 12/10/03

Sat. & Sun. MARCH 20 - 21, 2004
Crowne Plaza Meadowlands
Two Harmon Plaza, Secaucus, NJ



Stake your claim to a great weekend of entertainment for fans of Buffy and Angel, as Creation Entertainment's Salute to Buffy & Angel comes to The East Coast for the very first time! Along with our special guests, merchandise rooms, autographing, music videos, trivia and costume contests, parties and panels: you'll get to hang with tons of fellow fanatics!

NICHOLAS BRENDON (Xander of Buffy)
STEPHANIE ROMANOV (Angel's Lilah Morgan)
IYARI LIMON (Kennedy of Buffy)
ROBIA LaMORTE (Jenny of Buffy)
ROBIN ATKIN DOWNES (Machida of Buffy episode "Reptile Boy")

At last--a chance to embarrass myself in front of my favorite Buffy and Angel stars!

CJL: Miss Romanov, I...I...I...
SR: Yes?
CJL: Homina homina homina homina....
SR: That's very sweet. Could you move along? [Looking into the crowd] Next person on line, please?

[CJL, totally paralyzed by SR's intimidating presence, is removed bodily by security.]


[> ROB!!!! Look! Look! -- LittleBit, 11:24:29 12/22/03 Mon

It's your chance to get ahead of Dedalus!!

[> [> Oh my God! That's the day after my birthday!!!! -- Rob, 14:28:20 12/22/03 Mon

[> oh, no. no--they didn't! how could they? AAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!! -- anom, 12:48:08 12/22/03 Mon

That's the same weekend as Lunacon!!! One of the 3 science fiction conventions I go to every year. The one I see all my local-to-regional off-board SF fan friends at. The one that coincides w/1 of my best friends in fandom's birthday--& her birthday party, at the con! The one w/the Kosher Konspiracy, so I have no conflict btwn. going to services & going to the con, & there are Shabbes meal potlucks w/crossover filk/Jewish singing. The one w/great filksinging late into the night. The one that's so easy to get to by local rail.

Sorry...these Creation people are just gonna have to choose a different weekend! Reschedule their Buffy con so it doesn't conflict w/my Lunacon! I'll just call up this huge, high-powered...major media machine...w/the tons of money...yeah, I'll them up & tell them...they gotta...they...

...>sniffle< maybe they could arrange a shuttle bus? It's not that far...just to Westchester...they could afford it, easy!


[> Count me in! -- Sara, ready to brave the crowds, 20:24:14 12/27/03 Sat

will Lilah be giving lessons on being evil, glamourous and powerful? I want to sign up for that seminar! She's my hero! Anyone else going? We should coordinate.

[> [> whew! i was starting to think my post had killed this thread! -- anom, 23:20:14 12/28/03 Sun

I gotta work something out so I can get to both events...maybe go to Lunacon Friday & Saturday, the Buffycon Sunday? Just...don't anybody go home early from Buffycon, OK, 'cause I wanna see you!!

[> Seiously considering it -- LittleBit, 22:38:20 12/27/03 Sat

Just for fun but Buffy related: Sycophancy Made Simple -- Dichotomy Delurking, 14:14:58 12/22/03 Mon

Sycophancy Made Simple: A Three-Part Program to Total Toadydom

Do you need to stroke a Texas-sized ego in your midst? Or do you just feel like belittling yourself in the face of one you deem superior? Worry no longer! Developed by the Minions of Glorificus, this three-part program will start you on your way to glorious brown-nosing. Taken directly from her three favorites, Dreg, Jinx and Murk, these phrases are sure to get you noticed in all the wrong ways.

First, and most important, is the Exceedingly Complimentary Term of Endearment (ECTE). Think of your special egomaniac as a delicious, wonderful cake. Now go ahead and frost that cake scrumptiously with the following. Choose one or several to suit your needs. When you've become comfortable with these, feel free to make up your own!

1) Most beauteous and supremely magnificent one

2) Shiny special one

3) Your elaborate marvelousness

4) Your terrifically smooth one, it is the epitome of ankles.

5) Most tingly and wonderful

6) Your creamy coolness has honored me by speaking my name. Your voice is like a thousand sweet songbirds

7) Your extremeness

8) Perturbed, yet ultimately merciful-

9) Most silky and effervescent

10) Your most fresh and cleanness

11) Great one

12) Her magnificently-scented

13) Your inconceivableness

14) Your new and improvedness

15) Most glamorous yet tasteful one

16) Stunning one

17) Glittering, glistening Glorificus

18) Her magnificent incandescence

19) Her blindingly scrumptious luminescence

20) Perfect, all-encompassing light

21) Most sweaty-naughty-feelings-causing one

22) Your splendiforous radiance

23) Perfect, all-encompassing light, one you should feel honored to be bathed in

Never, ever address your superior without a ECTE. Even if you've been stabbed, by an enemy or your object of adulation, you should always come up with something, even if it's simple. For example:

24) Most ... highest ... you.

25) O ... thou

26) Good one

Get the picture? Now that you've coated the ego of your intended in a creamy frosting of self importance, go ahead and add the sprinklesÑthe rainbow sprinkles of your own worthlessness. The following Self-Degrading Phrases (SDPs) are a good way to start:

1) I grovel like a bug

2) Ow! Thank you.

3) Uh, begging your pardon, and begging in general, but ... were you talking to me?

4) With all due respect and-and fear of sharp objects ...

5) I beg of you to rip out my inadequate tongue

6) This (mere trinket, sacrificial goat, dark spell) I hold in my worthless and scabby hand is my gift to you

Finally, showing your egomaniac he or she is always right and that you'll do anything for him/her is like a creamy scoop of ice cream to compliment this confection you've created. Try these Agreement & Action phrases:

1) How can we help? We'll lay down our lives.

2) I am in thunderous agreement

3) Oblivion is such a small inconvenience in the service of a deity.

And if all else fails, my personal favorite is:
4) We will bring you Bob Barker! We will bring you the limp and beaten body of Bob Barker!

So how much do you think a supreme but simple program like this would cost? $50? $100? $200? Well, believe it or not this wonderful program won't cost you a penny. That's right! All you give up is your self-worth.

Start sychophanting, er sychophisizing, oh-----just start licking some boot, worm!

The preceding program is solely for entertainment purposes. The writer is not responsible for injuries sustained from attempted boot licking, tonguectomy, or other such activities.


[> Re: Just for fun but Buffy related: Sycophancy Made Simple -- Dichotomy, 19:46:05 12/22/03 Mon there anybody out there...

[> [> Very funny... -- The First Naughty Virtue, 20:07:46 12/22/03 Mon

And I bet Honorificus is taking notes...or having a minion do so.

[> OOOOooooooo nice to see my Minions practicing protocol...;) -- Rufus, 19:56:31 12/22/03 Mon

[> Well, I thought it was hilarious! -- dub ;o), 20:01:49 12/22/03 Mon

Glad you delurked, Dichotomy!


[> Heheh...what a great list to help me make my New Year's resolutions... -- Random, 20:12:29 12/22/03 Mon

Oh, and nice to see you again. Long time no see.

[> [> Re: Heheh...what a great list to help me make my New Year's resolutions... -- Dichotomy, 14:05:46 12/23/03 Tue

It's nice to be back! I undertook a new endeavor which ate up a lot of my free time for the past eight months.

[> Now I just have to get myself some minions.. -- jane, 21:53:01 12/22/03 Mon

I've tried teaching these rules to my cats, but they really don't seem to care! Any spare minions out there in need of a wannabe goddess???

[> [> Rules, we don't follow no stinking rules........:):):):):):):):):) -- Rufus (the cat not person), 22:20:07 12/22/03 Mon

[> You've forgotten my favourite one!!!! -- angel's nibblet, 22:59:18 12/22/03 Mon

"Oh groove-tastic one!"


[> Re: Just for fun but Buffy related: Sycophancy Made Simple -- punkinpuss, 11:39:06 12/23/03 Tue

Very groovy and funny! Thanks for that! You should make an infomercial to go with it.

Souling: Flipping & Flopping Angel & Spike (spoilers through Angel season 5) -- heywhynot, 15:05:32 12/22/03 Mon

While reading and responding to the thread below about the roles Angel & Spike have played in Buffyverse apocalypses, I was reminded of how Spike and Angel were during Becoming. Both at the time were without souls. Spike searches Buffy out to help her fight Angel & this is what he tells her:
(trascript copied from
"We like to talk big. Vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' That's just tough guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a
pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got... dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking
around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester Bloody Square. You know what I'm saying?"

Spike when he was w/o a soul was into the day-to-day sort of villiany, enjoying his undead existence. He liked causing mayhem, loving Dru, fighting, being bad in the world. Angel without a soul on the other was into the grand plans to end the world, a super-villian in comic-book terms.

Move forward, Angel gets his soul back and returns to the world. What does he do? He becomes a champion, helping the helpless. His big mission to save souls, in the process connect to the world. He is the day-to-day hero. Even before his desouling, his role is helping. He assists Buffy take on the role of being the Slayer, the super-hero.

Spike when he gets his soul is about the grand gesture epitomized by saving the world in Chosen. He is ticked off about returning to the world. He believed he did his part, he saved the world. Spike becomes corporeal again & jumps at the chance to be the vampire with a soul that is talked about in the prophecies, the super-hero.

Angel while putting an effort into fighting Spike admits that Spike wanted it more than he did. Part of Angel doesn't want to be the super-hero. The prophecies don't say which side the vampire with a soul will aid in the final battle. Given Angel's past experience, does he fear that he will be on the side of evil? Spike on the other hand doesn't seem to be much into the day-to-day heroics. The soulless Spike enjoyed "living". Does Spike fear the temptations of living will lead him back to life as a villian, the little bad?

on BtVS:
Angel while souled: Batman to Buffy's Superman while fighting
Spike while souled: Wonder Woman to Buffy's Superman
Angel w/o a soul: the super-villian
Spike w/o a soul: a villian


[> Re: Souling: Flipping & Flopping Angel & Spike (spoilers through Angel season 5) -- sdev, 18:51:40 12/22/03 Mon

Angel without a soul on the other was into the grand plans to end the world, a super-villian in comic-book terms.

Actually I started thinking about historical Angelus. Aside from that one episode with Acathala, did Angelus really have grand "end the world" designs? Is it possible that his Acathala plan was a perverted reaction to his involvement with the anti-Apocalypse Buffy? It seemed that when he lost his soul he became obsessed with her in that inverted way. If her role was to stop the apocalypse, Angelus was going to start one.

[> [> Re: Souling: Flipping & Flopping Angel & Spike (spoilers through Angel season 5) -- Corwin of Amber, 21:06:50 12/22/03 Mon

Well...Angelus was bad enough that The Beast felt he had to impress him with a pile of corpses, before asking him to do in the Svean Priestesses. He must have done something to gain general demonic notoriety.

I've always wondered why a villian would want to destroy the world, rather than rule it somehow, but that's just me.

[> [> [> maybe because -- Seven, 09:34:10 12/23/03 Tue

And this only works the right way in the Buffyverse, but

what if by destroying the world and making it a hell dimension (what is usually meant by destroying the world in the Jossverse -- except for Happy Anniversery--) what if doing that brings even more noteriaty and leads to kingdom? Uhg, just a thought. I am drained from the holidays and they still aren't over.

Uhm. Happy Holidays!!!! (Big Giant Fake Smile)


[> [> [> Flipping, flapping, flailing (spoilers Ang-okay, LOTR) -- fresne, 11:29:41 12/23/03 Tue

I don't know. I always wondered why villains kept attacking the United Nations. I mean okay, it's not good, but um, it's not like Dr. Doom can actually take over the world by doing it.

But anyway, I now have a bad visual of Spike in the Wonder Woman outfit. I mean, I think he's a hottie, but umm ... Nooooooooo.

Okay, actually, I have a visual of the characters from Toy Story doing Lord of the Rings

The T-Rex is Sauron and Spike is just sort of standing there in the lego (arms akimbo wait, no, Tick get out of there) fort, err ... shining city (cause there's a lamp pointed at it).

Off stage, Bo Peep swoons longingly for her beloved Sheriff Ranger.

Buffy is wearing the Supergirl outfit, Superman's is bit baggy, and she's flying (um ... jumping in the air) around bopping Mr. Potato Head (the witch king) whose riding around on the slinky dog (his terrifying wyvern).

"No man can kill me!" cackles, um, yells, um, says Mr. Potato Head.

"I'm no man." says Super-Buffy, fairly redundantly, given the cut and jib of her wonder bra reinforced outfit.

And with a "Hi-ya!" she kicks slinky dog, who says, "Ow! Don't hit so hard."

"Oh, I'm sorry!" says Super-Buffy, who then turns to stab the witch king with her, um, where's her sword? A group of army men run up with a large nail with a bit of tape wrapped around the head and hand it to her. Super-Buffy "stabs" the witch king with her terrible swift nail.

The witch potato sort of spins around, clutches the nail under his arm and yells, "I'm melting!" and falls down. Waives his arms around, "Dying, dying, killed by a slip of a girl, dying, dying, dying, why didn't I think that Ôno man can kill me' thing through, dying, dying, dying."

Space Adventure Pippin leans over and tells witch potato that maybe he should die already so they can get on with the battle. Plush Cuthulu is getting restless.

Meanwhile, back at the lego city, Angel, who is wearing a cowless Batman outfit, is having a moment grieving, brooding, plugging in a candle shaped Christmas ornament, for his lost, forgotten son.

Spike would bop Angel, but he can't move his hands away from his hips.

"Son?" says Wesley, who is wearing a trench coat and smoking cigarettes and looking a bit trench coat brigade seedy, bops Angel with his staff (hey, this is a kid's movie, get your mind out of the gutter). Wesley then says something really British and cool and simultaneously John Constantine/Gandalf/Wesley-ish.

"Cor, Bloody Hell, Blimy." says Spike, rotating 360 degrees at the waist, "I was bloody well going to sodding say that!"

"Nice bathing suit Wonder-Spike," says Wesley and because no really this is a children's story, there is not a bit with Wonder-Spike's rope, a trebuchet, and a jar of chocolate sauce. Suffice to say, there were manly tears and everyone goes off to fight Orcs.

Course, the Orcs are from the Dungeons and Dragons play set, so they are the size of army men, but you know, there are lots of them. Plus huge dice, slamming periodically into the glowing lego city.

Meanwhile, back at Zaha!doooom/little plastic mountain, Sauro-Rex leaps about, "Guys, guys, I'm really evil and I want to take over the world. Roar."

Xander and Anya, who have been having a bout of inappropriate wedding planning in the pillows of Zaha!doooom/little plastic mountain, realize that they are holding up the triumphal, yet sad ending and get on with walking to Zaha!doooom/little plastic mountain.

Sauro-Rex leaps around some more. "Guys, ring-wraiths, guys, I think they're almost here. Someone please save you're Dark Evil Lord." He waves his widdle, itty, bitty arms around. The ring wraiths/assorted toys wearing Kleenex, start back, but then, Plush Cuthulu arrives on the paper pirate ship with Sheriff Aragorn. Cuthulu shines a flashlight at the ring wraiths, makes some light saber noises and everyone wearing Kleenix falls down.

Anya and Xander briefly argue about throwing the paper ring from the J.C. Penny's catalog into the maw of Zaha!doooom/little plastic mountain, but Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum says, "Oh, give me that already," shoves the bit of red tissue paper out of the way and jumps into Zaha!doooom/little plastic mountain.

Sauro-Rex tips over, slooowwwly, flails his little, itty, bitty arms around, and falls over.

There was much rejoicing.

Even Angel smiles.

Super-Buffy does back flips and hooks up with the easy bake oven.

Tragically, Anya and Wesley, will now have to leave on the all purpose Pirate ship, but eyeing Wesley's stubble, Anya declares, "So, Gandalf, why does a wizard's staff have a knob at the end?"

Even more tragically, Wonder-Spike has to drink his glog through a straw, because he still can't move his arms from his hips. Course with Barbies around, that's not really a problem. "Still the prettiest." He smirks and saunters off, arms akimbo, with Swan Lake Barbie, Up-Town Barbie and Astronaut Barbie.

Skip goes off to play gin rummy with Dawn.

"Pockets," says the Tick, "Arthur, "I have pockets!" And a watery tart hands
Bat-Angel a magic sword and after a drink of refreshing mountain dew, Angel batarangs his way into the hallway.

No, really, I have nothing to do at work today.

[> [> [> [> OMG that is hilarious!! -- Ann, 11:38:29 12/23/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> OMG it's like one of my dreams, where all my fandoms smoosh into one in a completely incoherent way! -- angel's nibblet, 15:04:18 12/23/03 Tue

Well done! Three thumbs up! Now try adding some Harry Potter in there ;-) my personal challenge to you...

[> [> [> [> [> A Cuthulu on the peaches -- fresne, 16:22:50 12/23/03 Tue

You know when I was a child, and you must never tell my parents this, but I liked to play with fire. I gathered candles and wax and, well, in general, I was always careful to play on the tile floor.

Here however, I must be a bit uncareful.

Wesley, prior to bopping Bat-Angel with his mighty staff (no really, the flu is going around, get out of the gutter), sends Space Adventure Pippin to jump off the bed, do a backflip off the drum, fly, and light that stash of grey candle wax in the Foldiers can. In the distance, tiny shivering army men carefully light the candle in front of the picture of Jesus signed by Great Grandma Lukensmeyer. The bold, but fearful, army men on the shoe stand outside the door where the alter to Queen Barbie Head/Neferteri stands light the jasmine candle of sacred ooogent. The electrified and not worried about fire army men in the bathroom across the way flash the emergency flashlight through the door into the family room. The terrified, but brave Army men, stationed on the T.V. rappel up the wall to light all seven candles on the leaf pattern sconce. The singed, but dedicated army men in the doorway to the dining room fling a match into the candle mass in the blue glass globe. The relieved army men by the fireplace flick the gas switch.

Sheriff Aragorn runs up the foot stool cushions into the fort that pillows made. Standing at the ottoman door, he says in a carrying voice, "The signal lights are lit."

Harry Potter stands in the hall of his school, fingering his scarf. He turns to Sheriff Aragorn and says, "And Hogwarts will answer." Harry turns to his right hand man, Glass Unicorn, and says, "Send to the east and gather the forces of the cast of Shoggoth on the roof. Send to the south and gather the forces of Slytherin hand puppets, because this is a time to set aside, bladdy, blah differences. Send to the south-east and gather swift feet of plush stuffed horses. We will wait at the foothills of family room lazy-boy, hidden from the prying eye of hidden camera in kitchen clock (I was fairly convinced that my mother was monitoring cookie intake.), until the next plot point."

Walking, Walking, walking there's this whole digression where Sheriff Aragorn and Wonder-Spike, his arms akimbo (don't ask me how he got there), and Hagrid, the world's tallest dwarf, head into the under the bar where the canned peaches of the undead are kept seeking the dread plush Cuthulu. Not dead, but getting dusty.

Anyway, the forces of Hogwarts gather at the entry to the room. Before them a vast sea of nuts, D&D figurines, WWI German army figures, some small artillery, Kleenix clad toys were massed.

Harry turns to his too small, too few, too lucky, weary few, brought so far following the still flickering candle lights. Carrying his broom, he says, "Insert Saint Crispin's Day speech here." And the troops cheered. And then in too thin and crescent wave, they charged into and through the mass of prickling toothpicks/pikes.

Fortunately, unknown to them, (Although how they didn't notice her in that outfit, I can't say.) Super-Buffy had snuck into their forces to join the fight.

You mean something like that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes!!!! Now make it a musical!!!! Obey my commands puny mortal!!! *evil cackle* -- angel's nibblet, 16:47:10 12/23/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> BTW I was kinda kidding on the whole musical thing.... kinda ;-) -- angel's nibblet, 17:30:24 12/23/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A twinkle in my tip, tapping step, and pivet (you know, still spoiled LOTR) -- fresne, 20:27:36 12/23/03 Tue

Ah, dear sweet bat-angel's nibblet. Do you think to command the madness in my West Coast Swing eyes? Three rainbows surge and spin and angels buzz the rose. Puny. Mortal. Effervesce. Feeling unknown and you're all alone, flesh and bone by the telephone. Lift up the receiver and I'll make you a believer, you can have my empire of dirt. My love for Fred Astaire is pure.

Reach out and touch personal request.

Harry Potter didn't summon the fell cast of A Shoggoth on the Roof for nothing.

The massed charge and weight of the plush animals scattered the nuts and figure eights of the enemy. But then a groan. From the window sill bench, a new threat arose. Five inflatable Republican Party Elephants (and before anyone takes offense and says anything either way, my grandfather was a Republican in the SD House of Representatives, I had several inflatable Republican elephants. Very cool when going on safari in the living room) lumbered across the room. All of a sudden, the plush animals didn't seem so big before the airy animal might of the Relephants. There was a hum in the air. "Smiles. Black hat, white tie and tails. Smiles." whispered the Relephants, as they marched forward to crush the enemy beneath their mighty air filled feet. Oh, and there was some racial stereotyping on the part of the paper cut out gnomes who were taped to the backs of the Relephants.

"To me, form the dance line," cried out Harry Potter.

Looking at the assembled cast of A Shoggoth on the Roof, Harry Potter said,
"Is this the little child I carried? Is this the little boy at play?"
Glass Unicorn-(Btw Glass Unicorn's horn is glued on. There was a tragic accident a few years back. Try not to stare.)
I don't remember growing older. When did they?
Harry Potter-
When did the world grow so dark? When did they grow to be so tall?
Glass Unicorn-
Wasn't it yesterday when they were small and the world was bright?
Cast of Shoggoth on the Roof and Harry Potter (whose voice is cracking nicely into a tenor)-
sunrise, sunset. sunrise, sunset. swiftly flow the days. seedlings turn overnight to sunflowers blossoming even as we gaze
Cast of Shoggoth on the Roof and Glass Unicorn
sunrise, sunset, sunrise, sunset. swiftly fly the years. one season following another laden with happiness and tears.
Harry Potter-
what words of wisdom can I give them? How can I help to ease their way in battle?
Glass Unicorn-
now they must fight by one another, strike by strike.
sunrise, sunset, sunrise, sunset, swiftly fly the years. One season following another laden with happiness and tears.

And lock step the cast of A Shoggoth on the Roof began to glissando slide walk, start, stop, music counter point, down the pile of books. Rap, tap, tap. "Like a Shoggoth on the roof,." They sang, led by their director/lead singer, Tevye Snape.

Super-Buffy grew bored with this and ran forward armed with a mighty pin. Darting between the massive legs of an enormous Relephant, she ... it reared and drew a box in the air with its trunk, "Hey, no poking. Respect the air integrity." Super-Buffy shrugged and mimed stab, stab, stab, stabbing its legs. The Relephant rolled over and played dead. The gnomes would have been crushed, but they were paper and therefore flat. However, they kept humming "Putting on the Ritz" until Super-Buffy pretended to kill them.

Tevye Snape twirled his wand and pointing it at a Relephant, he began a furious series of staccato taps. It shuddered at the blows of the um ... .taps.

"Hey,:" said Super-Buffy. "No fair. I did like fighting and stuff. What's with the tap killing."

"You do what you can love." said Wonder-Spike, nimbly running up the side of a Relephant, his arms akimbo, but there was some lasso action, and therefore fan gurls sighed, "Let me rest in peace." Slow legato, Kick. "Let me get some sleep," Diminuendo reprise, and High kick, turn, "I did it my way." Spin kick, "Life's not a song." Tap, tap, tap, spin, jazz akimbo hands, tap, tap, tap, on the Relephant's head, "So, bugger this and Call me Casanova, Eternal Life, and don't forget my dog, fix-ed consequence, Astronomy, or the life that never warms." The Relephant fell over.

"That counts as one," said Hagrid, the worlds tallest and in this instance, most confused, dwarf. Hagrid brushed off a couple of mini-orcs.

"Yeah, whatever. I don't even know where I'm supposed to be in the continuity of this story." said Wonder-Spike, who Jooss-type lunged himself (you wouldn't think you could do that deep a lunge in jeans, but there you go.) off the battle field and back to brooding Bat-Angel.

Brooding, brooding, brooding, "Mandy, oh, Mandy, give in to the music of the night. It's a lot like life. Master and Servant. Oh, Hello Wonder-Spike. Sob, music of the night."

I also feel that there is a heartfelt, Dawn/glowy ball of energy/Golem, "I have a split personality." number in there somewhere. Something really tasteful. Kinda artsy. Bare stage. Minimalist props. Probably the dresser top. That way there's the huge mirror. Some sort of fluttering fabric. All "Ho, ho, ho, who's got the last laugh now." But you know, in a thoroughly ring deranged sort of way.

"Where do we go from here?"

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wooooo!!! Standing ovation!!!!! *crowd goes wild* (crowd being me) -- angel's nibblet, 14:27:02 12/25/03 Thu

I await your Dawn/glowy ball of energy/Gollum number with baited breath ;-)!

Merry Christmas you crazy person.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The real question is: when will I be able to buy the soundtrack? -- angel's nibblet, 23:13:25 12/25/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> In the busy dog days of 2003 -- fresne, 12:23:19 12/29/03 Mon

I'll admit, I'm a bit nervous given the Dawnie Sue RoTKness analytic going on nearby, but I have a copy of The Eye of Argon and I'm prepared to use it. And so by popular nibblet demand, and would you believe that I don't do drugs ...

All is still on the dresser top. Dusty. Messy. Still as the grave, if the grave were the top of a dresser with a tunnel made from books off to one side.

Anya and Xander are snugly resting in the shirt drawer. It had been a hard climb up the 1000 step dresser drawers of DoIhavetolookitup.

"Oh, oh, oh!" says Yellow Yarn Octopus with the Googlie Eyes, "Is it my turn to be scary? People, I like to eat people. Grr. Argh." She waves her braided arms with the little yellow ribbons at each end.

"Guys, guys, I'm really evil! Roar!" says Sauro-Rex, over at Zaha!doom/little plastic mountain, and waves his wittle, ittle, bitty arms, which do not have pretty yellow ribbons at each claw.

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum stamps her little bare foot (She's a hobbit, except she's a Golum and a girl and, anyway, she can't wear shoes) and says, "Doesn't anyone even notice that it's time for my big dance number."

"Could someone explain why Golum has a big dance number?" says Sauro-Rex, hopping from one ginormous leg to the other and waving his cutsey, wootsey, wittle arms.

Yellow Yarn Octopus with the Googlie Eyes shrugs. A lot. And her eyes bobble and googlie.

Sauro-Rex mutters, "I want a big dance number."

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum ignores him. Oh, and Dawn is wearing the new pink, (i.e., black) and is dressed like Audry Hepburn in Funny Face. You know in Paris. In the bar. That scene where Fred Astaire just sort of stands there and is all, "Kids today and what they call dancing." Like that. But with no shoes. And with a piece of green tinsel around her neck, cause she's green and glowy. Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum, not Audry, nor Fred.

A hundred army men stand to one side doing warm up stretches. Limited edition Mr. Spock, still in his plastic bag, chats with Yellow Yarn Octopus with the Googlie Eyes. So, I guess the dresser top wasn't really still. More crowded like a really crowded graveyard, if a graveyard were the top of a dresser covered with toys doing warm up exercises.

Ahem, where was I? Oh, yeah, the big dance number.

The army men start to hum, Somethings Gotta Give.

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum turns to face the mirror behind the dresser, stands on one foot (Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum, not the mirror) and assumes the Holding a Jug of Water on my Head position, "Oh, Precious, oh Precious. How I hates them, oh Precious, my Precious." Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum performs the Throw the Jug of Water Away move and cha cha chas onto the other foot and assumes the I'm a Ballerina on a Music Box position.

Music Box Ballerina raps her staff on the floor, nods approvingly and hops back to Bat-Angel to discuss his Music of the Night number.

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum sings, "Then we must kills them. We must kills them. Takes them to Miss Hungry Yarn and gets our Precious back," as she flaps her arms like a really deranged bird.

"Yes, you must!" sing the army men, "Yes, you must!"

"Pure energy!" sings Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic bag.

"I'm a little key, short and thin," sings Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum, "Here is my handle," as she puts her right hand on her hip, "And here is my green glowy energy thingy," waving her green strand of tinsel in her left hand,

"Pure energy!" sings Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic bag. "Oh, the Pain!"

"Pure energy! Oh, the pain!" sing the army men, who rush back and forth across the dresser top, holding pieces of green tinsel.

"Does nobody even notice that I'm in-sane!" sings Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum, as she extends both arms in the Dramatic Gesture position.

"Precious does." sing the army men, as they run around Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum with their bits of green tinsel, "Precious. Precious. Precious."

"Pure energy!" sings Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic bag.

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum tries to run across the dresser top, but she is surrounded. Surrounded! By little army men with green tinsel. Fluttering. Fluttering! Fluttering! Gestures of horror and dismay! Dismay!

The army men begin to hum They All Laughed.

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum makes with the jazz hands and spins on one foot. The army men scatter. She sings, "The odds were a hundred to one a-gainst us/
The world thought the heights were too high to climb/But people from Middle earth never in-censed us."

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum jumps up and down, "Except, when they did precious, precious and we killed them. Yes we did."

"She has ish-shues." sing the army men, rustling their green tinsel, "She has issues!"

"Precious. Yellow Yarn Octopus is Hun-gry!" sings Mr. Spock.

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum does a little soft shoe (only with bare feet), "They all laughed at Elwing of Sundering/When she said the world was round./They all laughed when ESrendil recorded sound."

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum does a Jooss style lunge, "And so he killed them, yes he did, Precious. Precious."

"She has ish-shues." sing the army men, rustling their green tinsel, "She has issues!"

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum assumes the Flying like a Leaping Tiger position and sings, "They all laughed at Angmar and his brother/When they said that man could fly./They told Palantiri wireless was a phoney./It's the same old try."
The army men march across the stage in nine rows, waving their tinsel. Waving their tinsel!

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum dances like a butterfly, "They laughed at me, wanting you./Said I was reaching for the evil ring that binds them with runes.
But oh, you came through./Now they'll have to change their tune."

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum jumps, spins, pivots, does a brief scissor kick and waves her arms in the air, "Because She will eat them. Yes She will."

"Yes she will, yes she will," sing the army men, still, you know, marching, only now they are circling Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum in big rings. Get it. Rings.

Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum begins to step, hop, step, hop, step, step, step, hop, between the army men, "They all said we never would be happy./Precious, let's take a bow./But ho, ho, ho./Who's got the last laugh now?"

"Ho, ho, ho. Who's got the last laugh now?" sing the army men, marching around on the dresser top, waving their green tinsel.

"Ho, ho, ho. Who's got the last laugh now?" sings Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum, who is now at Ôstage' front center. The army men stop marching. Everyone takes a bow.
"Pure energy." whispers Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic bag.

Anya and Xander climb up from the shirt drawer. "Did you just have a big dance number?" asks Xander.

"Nope. Just, oh, look a really scary spider thingy!" Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum points to the tunnel between stacks of books at one end of the dresser top and Yellow Yarn Octopus with the Googlie Eyes waves her braided yarn arms. As Xander and Anya turn to look, that sneaky Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum runs away. Yes, she does. Yes, she does.

[> [> [> [> don't have a cow, batman! -- anom, 11:31:40 12/25/03 Thu

Well, you said it was a cowless Batman outfit.

This was hilarious, fresne--fantastic in every sense of the word. And that goes for all 3 installments, even though I didn't get half the references in the 3rd.

My mind is refusing that bad Wonder-Spike visual...or trying to.... And he can't move his hands from his hips? Did somebody bind his wonder-bracelets together? Wait, then the hands would have to be on the opposite hips, wouldn't they? But he still couldn't move them....

Oh, & I loved the toothpikes.

And the whole thing makes me think of a button that says: "I bought the Civil War chess set and the Star Trek chess set. Now I have the South fight the Klingons." OK, it has no characters in common w/your scenario, but it's in the same spirit.

[> [> [> [> try this crossover -- skeeve, 08:40:52 12/26/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Souling: Flipping & Flopping Angel & Spike (spoilers through Angel season 5) -- sdev, 08:54:52 12/25/03 Thu

Yes, it is clear that Angelus has notoriety in the demon world, but I see nothing to indicate that it is of the apocalyptic variety. I have the impression that it is for his strength, intelligence, ruthlessness and destructiveness, as in eating the village.

As to destroying the world, who besides Willow wanted to do that? And she was nihilistic at that point. Glory wanted to return to her own home dimension and did not care about the consequences of opening the walls between dimensions. Angelus wanted to suck the world into hell. I assume as Angelus he thought he would fit in better in hell than on the earthly dimension.

Happy holidays of all varieties.

Idle midnight thoughts (Spoilers up to 5.8) -- Doriander, 21:51:07 12/22/03 Mon

The re-airing of Unleashed got me renewably irked by the WB ending but did inspire some thinking up of choice tracks for hypothetical scenarios (::cough::wish list::cough::) on AtS.

1. Sly (Massive Attack)
-Angel's "going through the motions". Song is just evocative of S5 (at least to my ears)--blasZ disposition for Angel, vaguely unsettling as result of the mind wipe for the others especially Wes, W&H miasma, alienation, disillusion, self-delusion, nostalgia...

2. Sinnerman (Nina Simone)
-frantic track for Angel and Spike, vying in yet another escapade

3. Small Plot of Land - Basquiat version (David Bowie)
-cues as we behold Connor the moment the mind wipe unravels

4. Moon River
-I'm enamored with HBO's film adaptation of Angels in America, and one of its many enrapturing scenes had me enamored with this little ditty. And how it would make for a twisted narrative track for AtS. I'm envisioning this episode concluding montage--the cast engaged in varying occupations at varying locations a la CwDP. Esoteric whistling of the Moon River melody threads us through the sequence. AiA also got me hankering for AtS to have location shoots in NYC (I just want more of the grit back, less of the synthetic W&H set). The subway being the closest facsimile...I've this particular tableau in mind, to coincide with the "two drifters..." stanza: depleted Connor and Spike in the train, nearly empty car, seated back to back, oblivious of each other--just an affecting picture of symmetry (I wantsss this sooo bad. At least one scene with Connor and Spike the caliber of Faith-Spike basement convo. One scene of them in the same frame. They needn't know, or even acknowledge each other at all. I just needsss visual nod. Pwease, Mutant Enemy?). La-di-da, other characters, then Angel. Camera lingers on our champ...slowly hovers till he's out of frame...transition to nightime urban hovers till this figure comes into frame, reveal esoteric whistling being rendered by none other than Lindsey, eyes sparkling knowingly as he saunters past, camera follows his retreating form. BLACK OUT.

Additional tracks if Virgin Records were to produce an album (falls into the category of ideal theme songs though not exactly viable for narrative use. At least not on a show like AtS. Too...too ::recalls cringe making Gangsta's Paradise in Double or Nothing:: first one on the list, maybe, but Smallville co-opted it already. Anyway...):

-Hurt (Johnny Cash) - couldn't be a more perfect for Angel
-Numb (Linkin Park) - Connor, Spike and Wes' angry anthem
-Like a Stone (Audioslave) - anthem for the estranged, the prodigals in the AtS sense of the word, which would be...oh right, most everyone in the cast at one point or another (also, mmmm...Chris Cornell).

What else? No Mandy. The Gorillaz track in that one ep would be cool. Probably some of Lorne's signature songs like Lady Marmalade. Christian Kane's song in Dead End. Too Drunk to Fuck. Ahhh yes, "Weeee are the chaaaampions..." ;-p

My wet dream of an album cd-rom bonus feature: The Darkness' "I Believe in a Thing Called Love" video (which you could view in full, streaming video on their website if you've long gone off on MTV. These guys just tickle me)
-a tribute video starring Spike (playing vocalist Justin Hawkins), Connor and Lindsey. Electro girl and Harmony may have been enlisted as well. Shot by shot remake, but infused with endearing guerilla film making sensibility--Lorne's outfits for costumes; letting loose in Angel's penthouse, his bed, his bath, his satins; sneaking in the white room for some of the shots; quick hop into another dimension for the more exotic backdrops, then back "accidentally" delaying sealing the portal so that a giant of a crab like creature manages to get through. (And hey, Joss could even splice in a Serenity shout out here).

Eclectic enough?

What would be your ideal song list for an AtS album?

Happy Holidays! Wishing yours is more eventful than mine.


[> Re: Idle midnight thoughts (Spoilers up to 5.8) -- puss, 18:35:49 12/23/03 Tue

Was just listening to this song. Made me think of AtS season 2. A lot.

Laika, Shut off/Curl Up

Nothing to do with AtS, though. It's from 1997.

Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died? -- Ames, 11:48:32 12/23/03 Tue

Watching S5 again on DVD, and the early episodes of S6 repeated on Space lately, I wondered if the Watchers Council ever found out that Buffy died.

I guess that Giles might have had a conversation with them to let them know that Glory was defeated, but he might have had reasons of his own to keep up the deception that Buffy was still alive.

If the Council knew that Buffy was dead, wouldn't they have wanted an active Slayer at the Hellmouth? As far as we know, the one and only active Slayer after Buffy's death was Faith, and she was in prison in LA. The Council didn't like Faith, so maybe they wouldn't have wanted her. But they're a pretty ruthless bunch - would they have tried to have her killed to activate a new Slayer under their control?

Giles said that he met with the Council when he was back in England in After Life, but from the timing that must have been after the phone call from Willow telling him that Buffy was back. Maybe he never told them about her death.


[> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died? -- Evan, 13:46:40 12/23/03 Tue

I think he probably didn't tell the council, for the reasons you gave. But for how long could he possibly have thought this buffybot would be an adequate replacement? It seems like leaving Willow, Xander, Anya, Dawn & Tara in Sunnydale with the Buffy Bot and then leaving for England without ever telling the council that the slayer was dead was a really terrible plan.

What I really don't get, though, is how they got her buried in the graveyard, with a stone and everything, without actually telling anyone she was dead. Even assuming that the graveyard would allow such a thing, what if someone from Dawn's school had noticed it? Or, worse yet, a vampire?

[> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died? -- Claudia, 14:22:52 12/23/03 Tue

If they were trying to keep Buffy's death a secret, why erect a grave stone with her name, in the first place?

[> [> [> As a tribute to their friend who they loved very much who died! -- Rob, 14:29:29 12/23/03 Tue

Besides the fact that it was not common knowledge for every vamp in town knew that the slayer's name was Buffy. Most of them just know her as the Slayer. And as Finn points out, her grave wasn't in a graveyard but in a secluded spot.


[> [> [> [> Re: As a tribute to their friend who they loved very much who died! -- Claudia, 15:29:44 12/23/03 Tue

"Besides the fact that it was not common knowledge for every vamp in town knew that the slayer's name was Buffy. Most of them just know her as the Slayer."

But weren't the Scoobies trying to keep Buffy's death a secret from the authorities, as well? Even if the grave was in the middle of the woods, how would that stop someone from stumbling across it?

[> [> [> [> [> Because they're woods; their nature is to stop people stumbling across things in them -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:02:50 12/23/03 Tue

Unless someone really went looking for something for a long time in the Sunnydale woods, odds are no one would come upon the tombstone

[> [> [> [> [> [> More to the point, the woods *were* near Sunnydale, one assumes.. -- Random, 19:38:40 12/28/03 Sun

Odds are even greater that someone wandering in those woods wouldn't make it out alive again

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Great point! -- Rob, 08:41:11 12/30/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Isn't Buffy's name world renowed -- Vapthorne, 16:17:38 12/23/03 Tue

Didn't Dracula say something to that effect in "Buffy vs Dracula"?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Isn't Buffy's name world renowed -- angel's nibblet, 16:40:02 12/23/03 Tue

I think maybe it's more her reputation that is world renowned- as the current reigning slayer. As we've seen in the past, the actual identity of the slayer as a human being is often viewed, at least by some, as secondary to their abilities as the slayer. Quite often when we see the Big Bad and assorted little bads talking about Buffy they refer to her as "the Slayer" as opposed to "Buffy" or "Buffy, the Slayer".

Therefore I guess it would be possibile for Buffy to be 'world renowned' without most demons knowing or using her name.

If that makes any sense?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Isn't Buffy's name world renowed -- Vapthorne, 18:31:51 12/23/03 Tue

To quote the episode

Dracula: "You know who I am. As I would now without question that you are Buffy Summers."

Buffy: "You're heard of me?"

Dracula: "Naturally. You're known throughout the world."


And a quote from the episode "The Gift"

Buffy: "Wow. Been a long while since I met one who didn't know me."


As we can tell, the name Buffy Summers is linked to the term vampire slayer, since it reached the ears of the natives in Translyvania. Also, in the timeline of the Gift, Buffy found it surprising that a fledgling. Did not know who she was.

What can this tell us? Maybe, absolute knowledge of her identity is not known to every vampire. Unless I'm mistaken, vampires and demons that first afoul with Buffy on patrol reconize her on sight as the 'Slayer'. Either they have linked a face to their current mortal enemy, and simply refer to her as 'slayer' with a spiteful tone rather than by name as a means to show their discontent (since addressing someone by name is a little more respectful, and the curtosy given by Dracula). We don't exactly how many vampires/demons know this: but the rumor mill is churning names.

The other explaination for this is maybe it's the supernatural senses of some demons and vampires alerts them (thus making the slayer's job harder without the element of surprise), or they just assume every female who happens to fight back is a potential (a foolish assumption on the monster's part).

You can take your pick on the theories.

Now, the question is: if a random vampire who stumbled on Buffy's grave. Would he make the connection? Maybe, maybe not. I don't recall the tombstone saying 'Slayer' anywhere, and he has either seen or heard of the slayer running around (Buffybot). Most likely, he'll assume that the grave was someone else who shared the same name. It'd be a huge leap of logic to assume that there be a robotic replacement running around.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dracula isn't a good example... -- Rob, 19:55:21 12/23/03 Tue

...because he did not fit the "regular" vampire rules by any means and nothing he said could be taken at face value. He is a grand, master illusionist and manipulater. His words about Buffy being known throughout the world could have just as easily been an initial buttering-her-up before he swooped down for the "delve-into-your-darkness" kill.

The second example you gave again only proves that she is known by vampires, many times at sight, as the Slayer. That is not mutually exclusive with the concept of knowing her name, though. A vampire can tell a girl is the Slayer (a) simply because she has the same supernatural strength he does or (b) had already seen her fight someone else.

Also, you have to remember that the Buffybot was active and kicking butt, to further dissaude any vamps who might have stumbled onto the grave into linking the name with the Slayer, because she seemed to be very much alive at the time.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dracula isn't a good example... -- Vapthorne, 20:28:11 12/23/03 Tue

Good point about Dracula's manipulative nature. However, we know without a doubt, Dracula learned about Buffy's name and secret identity. The information had to reached his ear all the way from Sunnydale. Also, in the Prom, it's been suggested that the student body is aware of Buffy's heroics (though, not the fact she's the slayer). That generated into some talk, and quite a few extra vampire are ex-high school students. Then, we know that the every seasonal 'big bad' knows Buffy's identity.

If many, or in fact, any vampire can pin the face (an exact mug shot, as opposed to a vague description) to the slayer. Then, any vampire with a shred of intelligence can find a name to match (again, not to many vampires have that). They can't assume that seeing someone with supernatural prowless equals slayer on first sight. Well they can, but that just a leap in logic considering somebody could get similar supernatural strength through means of magic or science.

That I remember the Buffybot, in fact, I've made a note about it in my last post. Like I said, they'd assume it was someone else named 'Buffy' :-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> However, -- Dead (& feeling contentious, or maybe just quarrelsome) Soul, 22:18:16 12/23/03 Tue

In Doppelgangland, fairly young Vamp!Willow & Vamp!Xander both knew of her and knew her name. In a Sunnydale where Buffy had never been.

Cordelia said that the world was better when Buffy was there, but she never identified Buffy as the Slayer.

My guess is that the vamp & demon grapevine keeps pretty much every(one) up on the current identity and location of the Slayer.

"She should talk to her people. That name's striking fear in no one's heart."

So I hope her grave was very well hidden.

[> [> It wasn't in a graveyard -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:27:18 12/23/03 Tue

In "Bargaining" it seemed to be in the middle of the woods somewhere.

[> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died? -- skpe, 14:28:19 12/23/03 Tue

From watching Bargaining I and Bargaining II it appears that Buffy was not in a cemetery but secretly buried in the woods

[> [> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died? -- DEN, 15:40:02 12/23/03 Tue

This seems another example of the difficulties ME had from the beginning in conceptualizing S6. The pattern of going for "effects" rather than developing coherent, convincing story lines was present from the opening scenes.

[> [> [> [> Not understanding . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:05:24 12/23/03 Tue

How do those two things fit together? Since the Scoobies didn't let anyone know Buffy was dead, they couldn't bury her in a graveyard, so they'd need to go to some out of the way place to do it.

[> [> [> [> ???? -- Claudia, 07:43:49 12/24/03 Wed

"This seems another example of the difficulties ME had from the beginning in conceptualizing S6. The pattern of going for "effects" rather than developing coherent, convincing story lines was present from the opening scenes."

What do you mean by this? There was nothing wrong with the story line for Season 6 - other than Willow's problem with magic being handled in a heavy-handed manner in the episode, "Wrecked".

[> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died? -- The Sorcerer, 07:14:57 12/24/03 Wed

Actually, every big bad knew of Buffy's identity EXCEPT for Glory, who later found out the identity of the super-powered blonde from a scabby scavenger demon. We had never seen this demon before, yet he seemed to know exactly who the Slayer was by description.

[> What influence does the council hold in this matter. -- Vapthorne, 18:53:36 12/24/03 Wed

To answer this question, "If the Council knew that Buffy was dead, wouldn't they have wanted an active Slayer at the Hellmouth?". I've wondered about that subject, and asked myself.

Consider this:

-The Council did not locate Buffy to the Hellmouth in any direct fashion. She moved there because her mother found a job there, and Giles said it was nothing more than fate.

-Prior to Buffy, there was not always a slayer stationed at the Hellmouth.

-In Graduation, Buffy just walked out and quit the council. Let's assume they were unhappy and wanted a more controllable slayer. Why didn't they just find mean to dispose of her? I'd be surprised if this was not the first slayer who've rebelled against their authority (unless they have good indoctrine techniques). One answer might be since she died and is no longer the slayer of the line: they did really care.

Based off this rough data, I'd think that Council has little say about where a slayer should be stationed. The recruit the slayers based off prophecy, so it seems that destiny calls the shots. Which might explain why they had not subbed Faith inorder to op for a more disciplined slayer.

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