December 2003 posts
and Angel -- shambleau, 20:06:22 12/20/03 Sat
I watched a batch of S5 BtVS over the last couple of days, since
I just bought the DVDs. I started with IWMTLY and finished up
with The Gift. There were tremendously moving moments in almost
every one of those eps. Not every one hit me hard this time, since
I've seen them before, and some of the eps didn't do that the
first time. Even so, they affected me on some level at the time
and still do.
So, I started thinking about AtS and the moments there that moved
me toward the allergy tissues. And there weren't that many.
The ones that affected me the most turned out to be eps with Buffy
(IWRY) and Faith (5x5 and Sanctuary, Faith's scene in prison with
Angel). There were non-Buffy related ones, too, of course: the
video scene at the end of Hero, the scene when Angel was waiting
for the end with the old woman in AYNOHYEB.
This may seem like an attack on Angel, but it's not. Some of my
reaction is probably related to the fact that I get a lot more
upset when it's a woman who's bearing the brunt of a tragedy.
Although I think there are other reasons, I'm willing to concede
that may be why I was dry-eyed at the end of Home when Angel made
his sacrifice of Connor. Or, when Holtz jumped into the hell dimension
with baby Connor, or when Holtz had to kill his own daughter.
But I wasn't moved to tears when Darla killed herself, when Lilah
died, when Fred broke up with Gunn, or even when Cordelia was
in the hospital in To Shanshu in LA and came out of it to the
loving looks of Wesley and Angel. All cases with women. I'm not
saying that any of these scenes weren't dramatic or didn't suck
me in. They did. But they didn't rip my heart out.
I can't decide whether it's me or that the show is not aiming
for the tear-ducts the way that BtVS did. Why is Wesley with his
throat slashed and being attacked by Angel less moving to me than
Buffy and the Aprilbot on a playground swing? Wesley's situation
is tragic, after all, as is Angel's. And again, I'm not saying
that that isn't a great scene. It's just more of a jaw-dropping
"Man, things are so screwed up, how will they ever be friends
again" feeling that I get out of it.
Do other people find themselves with lumps in their throats a
lot? More than with Buffy, the same, or less often? Maybe they
could list the scenes?
[> Re: Darla's sacrifice in the alley get me every time
-- Brian, 20:09:55 12/20/03 Sat
The whole scene is wonderful, especially with its chilling Holtz
[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- CW, 21:17:39
It just varies from person to person. Personally, I find the scene
on the swings in IWMTLY the worst sort of bathos. It makes me
more angry at Buffy (for drawing life lessons from what I consider
Epsenson's vacuous twaddle in this ep), than I am sympathetic
with April. Obviously other people don't react as negatively to
it as I do.
There are scenes in a number of eps that give me a lump in the
throat, sometimes. But, often it depends on how I'm feeling otherwise
at the moment.
On the other hand, the one scene in The Body I can't watch without
getting weepy is when Buffy tells Giles they're not supposed to
move "the body." To me it's the moment when the full
force of her mother's death hits her. Later I always get a different
sort of lump in my throat when Tara and Buffy are talking alone
in the hospital. I've been on both sides of that particular kind
of conversation, and can feel what both of them are feeling.
Also the whole scene between Buffy and Dawn at the end of Forever
when Dawn has to decide not to bring their mother back gets me
[> [> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- shambleau,
19:45:09 12/22/03 Mon
Yeah, I've heard other people react negatively to the Buffy/April
scene. YAllergiesMV goes without saying. What I'm responding to
in the scene is Buffy's unexpected kindness and April's innocence.
The life lessons stuff was ham-handed, I agree, but only bothered
me much in the next scene, with Xander.
[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- Ray, 11:10:16
In To Shanshu in LA, Angel looking over Cordy and Wes in the hospital
was very sad.
Five By Five with Faith in the Alley
[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- sdev, 00:20:42
Wesley on the phone with his father at the beginning of Belonging.
I just rewatched that and it got me once again.
[> On second and later viewings -- KdS, 02:39:52
Wesley's fit of absurdist giggles in Angel's room in Loyalty,
just before the earthquake reconvinces him.
[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- Jaelvis, 07:46:49
I get misty-eyed in Epiphany when Kate and Angel are having that
talk about how nothing really matters in the big picture so the
smallest act of kindness is all that matters. Then Kate says she's
convinced that there is a higher power or the PTB's or something
out there. "We aren't alone in this," she says and then
procedes to tell Angel she believes that because she never invited
him in. Ooh. That scene sends chills down my spine.
[> [> no invitation -- skeeve, 08:43:36 12/22/03
Once upon a time I read a short story about a boy who experienced
his brothers feelings, even his dreams.
The story made it clear that the "echo" often lasted
longer the original, especially for very unpleasant feelings.
He'd been told that heaven was a nice place and that when the
time came he and his brother would surely go there.
The time came for his brother earlier than expected.
He died scared while hiding in a closet from other boys.
He might have been literally scared to death. I'm not sure.
The class of which I was a part was assigned to write an essay
to answer the survivor's question: If heaven is a nice place,
why do I still feel his fear?
I gave what was to me the obvious answer: for the same reason,
whatever it was, that he always experienced his brother's fear
after his brother was over it.
The teacher was *NOT* happy.
She actually handed me copies of two other essays on the subject
as examples of better work.
Here is another obvious answer: Angel didn't need an invitation
because Kate didn't live there anymore.
She wasn't dead, she had just decided to go elsewhere and was
actually on her way out.
Imagine that she had a U-haul in front and was going out the door
for the last time.
Angel walks in past her (no invitation needed) and persuades her
[> [> [> Re: no invitation -- Ray, 16:56:41
good analogy. and your answer to the essay question makes sense
[> I'm the same way, and I'm a bigger "Angel"
fan -- Scroll, 11:22:52 12/22/03 Mon
I love Buffy, of course, but I'm more an Angel girl.
I prefer the intense arcs, the tighter continuity, the atmosphere
and tone of the show, and the grittier characters and morality.
There's a visceral quality to Angel that I feel Buffy
lacks. That "jaw-dropping 'Man, things are so screwed up,
how will they ever be friends again' feeling" that you mentioned
-- I love that.
OTOH, Buffy is the show that makes me cry. Buffy, Willow,
and Dawn always set me off. Tara at times, Cordelia in Season
3, even Anya in some seasons get me a little misty. Spike has,
on occasion, made me shed a tear. Giles, Xander, Riley, and Oz
-- not so much, though I do feel for them.
Compare these with Angel, a more mature Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley,
Gunn, Fred, Connor, Lilah, Darla, Faith, etc. These guys are harder,
older, more seasoned and less "vulnerable" -- at least,
that's how they come across on screen. I'm so busy being shocked
by their actions, admiring of their courage, that I don't spare
time to "feel" their tragedies with them. I sympathise,
but don't empathise.
I can only think of a handful of Angel moments that truly
and consistently move me to tears. "I Will Remember You".
Doyle's death. ("Hero" had me bawling so hard, my roommate
started getting nervous.) Faith's breakdown in "Five by Five"
and her look of peace in "Sanctuary". Angel seeing Willow
in the lobby and saying "Buffy" got me weepy all over
Darla's death only got me a little misty. Holtz kidnapping Connor
through the portal, Wesley being rejected by his friends, Lilah's
ghost -- only a vague desire to sniffle. OTOH, "Inside Out"
and "Home" did have me crying for Connor.
So overall, Buffy has me crying a lot more than Angel.
I think it's just their differing styles. Put them together and
we get a wonderfully rich universe. One show has us bawling into
our Kleenex, the other has us biting our nails down to the quick.
[> [> Re: I'm the same way, and I'm a bigger "Angel"
fan -- phoenix, 10:53:15 12/23/03 Tue
I have to admit that I'm a bigger Buffy fan, and it has made me
cry more often than Angel, probably because I'm more emotionally
invested in the characters, but having said that, Angel has got
me misting up a few times -
Doyle's death at the end of Hero got me hunting for the Kleenex,
I had't realised how fond I had become of the character until
he was suddely gone. Faith's breakdown at the end of Five by Five
is still painful to watch, I think it's the only time we ever
see her cry. Darla's death in the alley in Lullaby is beautifully
done. However the one that had me really howling was Reprise,
the moment after the lift ride to hell with Holland when Angel
realises where the W&H home office actually is and finally loses
hope, it hits me like a truck every time. Just wonderful...in
a terrible way.
[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- punkinpuss,
12:21:10 12/23/03 Tue
With the reruns on TNT, I'm reminded of the more recent S3 moments
that got to me:
Fredless - When Fred breaks down in front of her parents
at the bus station and realizes that she can't run away from the
truth anymore. I was sobbing right along with her.
Billy - When Wesley tells Fred he doesn't know what kind
of man he is anymore, then moments later when he's closed the
door and begins quietly weeping to himself. Absolutely kills me,
There've been many more BtVS moments that got to me, but AtS is
a different style of show, more "hard-boiled" if you
will. Cathartic moments on AtS seem to come with less frequency
and a good deal more of the problematic issues still attached.
Faith's breakdown moment in Five by Five is incredible, but having
seen what she's just done to Wesley, it makes it harder for me
to empathize with her. I feel for her, but I can't put myself
in her place. As characters get darker on AtS, the problematic
protagonists can become harder to empathize with. We're
more likely to get bittersweet noir truths rather than soul-cleansing
[> Re: "Allergies" and Angel -- Dandy, 18:37:46
The Prom gets me every time, and Buffy sending Angel to hell.
various holiday wishes to
all! -- anom, 20:58:34 12/21/03 Sun
Starting with a belated Eid mubarak for any Muslim posters, going
on to an ongoing happy Chanukah for my fellow Jews, then a just-in-time
(on the East Coast) happy solstice for the pagans out there, & an
early merry Christmas for the Christians. (I guess both of the
last 2 groups could be covered with "good Yule"!) As
for the atheists & agnostics out there, you can pick & choose...at
the least, it is still the solstice today, for everyone.
For another few minutes, anyway...better press "send."
[> Season Greetings... from a complete and total stranger!
:-) (nt) -- Vapthorne,
21:09:27 12/21/03 Sun
[> The season's best, anom! And to all! -- CW, 21:28:23
[> Happy Holidays to all, however you celebrate it!
-- Masquerade, 23:24:02 12/21/03 Sun
This agnostic always gets nostalgic around the end of December....
And misses the trees, the carols, the food, the presents, and
[> I echo that and a Happy Chanukah to you anom! --
sdev, 00:08:53 12/22/03 Mon
[> Happy happy everybody! -- Pony, 05:37:51 12/22/03
[> Happy Everything to everyone!!! -- LittleBit, 09:45:52
[> Happy pantheistic winter holiday celebration, everyone!
-- cjl, 10:53:35 12/22/03 Mon
[> [> Did someeone say pantheist? -- Masq, 11:49:34
Masq, a week late and a several hundred dollars short
[> Happy Holidays everyone! -- Briar Rose, 12:06:49
I'm nervous and excited and all kinds of things... First long
term stay with my Significant Other's family. AT Christmas no
And for anyone else in this situation, my deepest wishes for calm,
peaceful and enjoyable interaction. May you have a wonderful time
and no unduly stressful surprises.
Speaking of stressful surprises.... I'm sweating a certain "Well,
I want you to open your gifts at my place but I have to give one
to you when we're there with the family..." said with that
mysterious and slightly calculating face gift. If I can ask for
prayers that I NOT Recieve any scary (commitmenty) jewelry this
holiday I'd much appreciate it... And I'll reply with prayers
that you recieve scary jewelry if it's your heart's desire.*LOL
[> A voice from the past... -- dub ;o), 13:37:10
vhD just e-mailed to wish me a Happy Solstice. Some of the older
posters will no doubt remember him, and I'm glad he keeps in touch
even if it's only once a year!
Happy Hannukah to you anom. Blessed Solstice, Merry Christmas,
and Peaceful Kwanzaa to all.
And a special note to my friend Sara, from the Association for
the Liberation of the Winter Festival: have a good one! Enjoy
the lights, the music, and best of all, the FOOD!
[> [> All of us at the A.L.W.F. -- Sara, 12:20:01
wish everyone a happy, happy, whatever and all!
[> Season's felicity - Peace on earth, good will to all
-- fresne, 11:33:11 12/23/03 Tue
[> Happy Shiny Midwinter type festival to all! -- O'Cailleagh,
18:40:25 12/23/03 Tue
Or Midsummer for those from Down Under!
Hope everyone has a wonderful time (even vhD!) and that all your
festive wishes come true....(best be careful with that wishing
though-you never know!). Love and Light and other such sentiments.
[> *sniffle* I just love the Holiday Season....:):):)
-- Rufus, 05:19:11 12/24/03 Wed
[> Happy Whatever-You-Choose-to-Celebrate!! -- purplegrrl,
09:18:41 12/24/03 Wed
[> The very best WhateverYouCelebrate to all! -- Vickie,
14:41:05 12/24/03 Wed
[> Merry everything! Happiness to all -- mamcu, with
love, 20:43:57 12/24/03 Wed
[> Winter festival best wishes. Forward to spring --
merry MsGiles, 01:54:50 12/25/03 Thu
[> Birds with womens' torsos indulging in 1950s pelvic rotation
craze. -- Celebaelin, 08:01:42 12/30/03 Tue
Just stopping by briefly in the midst of my holiday season travels
to say a non-denominational belated Merry Christmas and a pre-emptive
Happy New Year. Catch up with you all in the (Gregorian) New Year.
In case you're wondering when exactly it was I went completely
insane (a loooong time ago incidentally) the answer to the post
Stick that in your cracker. Best Wishes to one and all.
This is going to be my last
post... -- Marie, 02:45:03 12/22/03 Mon
...for a while, anyway! I just wanted to say have a wonderful
Christmas, all of you!
My due date is the 28th of December, but I think I may be later,
so maybe a New Year arrival?
They have a book in work on the date/sex/weight etc., and one
kind soul has put 12lb 4oz!!!! I guess I have to wonder what I
look like to him!! (On the plus side, other, kinder, folk have
done all my Christmas shopping for me!)
Anyway, if anyone cares, I'll let you all know the result of our
efforts in the New Year...
'Til then, Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i pawb!
[> Re: This is going to be my last post... -- Rufus,
05:25:01 12/22/03 Mon
I have to read carefully cause I thought you were talking about
[> Hope it goes fabulously! -- Pony, 05:32:57 12/22/03
[> And a wonderful Christmas to you too!! -- Rahael,
07:02:08 12/22/03 Mon
[> A baby for Christmas! -- dub ;o), 13:41:42 12/22/03
How cool is that? Have a great one Marie, and be SURE to let us
have all the details on the Little Dickens!
[> [> or for new year's! hey, maybe... -- anom, 22:15:59
...your baby could be the one to wear the "2004" sash!
No, wait...those babies age really fast...old by the end
of the year...never mind. That'd be worse than giving birth to
a 12-lb. baby!
[> Best wishes! -- Masq, 07:40:25 12/23/03 Tue
We expect a full report on this baby when you are ready to do
the reporting. Remember, we may not be your real family, but we
feel like family, being in on your romance, and your discovery
that you were pregnant and all your pregnancy pains!
Take care and congrats,
[> Re: Best wishes! -- Aliera, 08:12:36 12/23/03
[> Best wishes, Marie -- LadyStarlight, 20:55:41
Hope everything goes well, and a pox on the person who put money
on a 12 lb baby!
[> [> A 12 lb. pox! -- Dead (but it's not contagious)
Soul, 22:25:06 12/23/03 Tue
For New York etropolitan
area posters: finally--a star-studded Buffy con in our backyard!
-- cjl, 11:03:18 12/22/03 Mon
Buffy Convention in Secaucus NJ March 20-21.
Creation is hosting a Buffy convention in the NYC area March 20-21,
Tix not yet on sale (except for gold weekend pass packages)
NEW YORK CITY AREA
Sat. & Sun. MARCH 20 - 21, 2004
Crowne Plaza Meadowlands
Two Harmon Plaza, Secaucus, NJ
CREATION'S SALUTE TO BUFFY & ANGEL
SHOW HOURS: NOON TO 6PM
Stake your claim to a great weekend of entertainment for fans
of Buffy and Angel, as Creation Entertainment's Salute to Buffy
& Angel comes to The East Coast for the very first time! Along
with our special guests, merchandise rooms, autographing, music
videos, trivia and costume contests, parties and panels: you'll
get to hang with tons of fellow fanatics!
NICHOLAS BRENDON (Xander of Buffy)
STEPHANIE ROMANOV (Angel's Lilah Morgan)
IYARI LIMON (Kennedy of Buffy)
ROBIA LaMORTE (Jenny of Buffy)
ROBIN ATKIN DOWNES (Machida of Buffy episode "Reptile Boy")
At last--a chance to embarrass myself in front of my favorite
Buffy and Angel stars!
CJL: Miss Romanov, I...I...I...
CJL: Homina homina homina homina....
SR: That's very sweet. Could you move along? [Looking into the
crowd] Next person on line, please?
[CJL, totally paralyzed by SR's intimidating presence, is removed
bodily by security.]
[> ROB!!!! Look! Look! -- LittleBit, 11:24:29 12/22/03
It's your chance to get ahead of Dedalus!!
[> [> Oh my God! That's the day after my birthday!!!!
-- Rob, 14:28:20 12/22/03 Mon
[> oh, no. no--they didn't! how could they? AAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!!
-- anom, 12:48:08 12/22/03 Mon
That's the same weekend as Lunacon!!! One of the 3 science fiction
conventions I go to every year. The one I see all my local-to-regional
off-board SF fan friends at. The one that coincides w/1 of my
best friends in fandom's birthday--& her birthday party, at the
con! The one w/the Kosher Konspiracy, so I have no conflict btwn.
going to services & going to the con, & there are Shabbes meal
potlucks w/crossover filk/Jewish singing. The one w/great filksinging
late into the night. The one that's so easy to get to by local
Sorry...these Creation people are just gonna have to choose a
different weekend! Reschedule their Buffy con so it doesn't conflict
w/my Lunacon! I'll just call up this huge, high-powered...major
media machine...w/the tons of money...yeah, I'll just...call them
up & tell them...they gotta...they...
...>sniffle< maybe they could arrange a shuttle bus? It's
not that far...just to Westchester...they could afford it, easy!
[> Count me in! -- Sara, ready to brave the crowds,
20:24:14 12/27/03 Sat
will Lilah be giving lessons on being evil, glamourous and powerful?
I want to sign up for that seminar! She's my hero! Anyone else
going? We should coordinate.
[> [> whew! i was starting to think my post had killed
this thread! -- anom, 23:20:14 12/28/03 Sun
I gotta work something out so I can get to both events...maybe
go to Lunacon Friday & Saturday, the Buffycon Sunday? Just...don't
anybody go home early from Buffycon, OK, 'cause I wanna see you!!
[> Seiously considering it -- LittleBit, 22:38:20
Just for fun but Buffy related:
Sycophancy Made Simple -- Dichotomy Delurking, 14:14:58
Sycophancy Made Simple: A Three-Part Program to Total Toadydom
Do you need to stroke a Texas-sized ego in your midst? Or do you
just feel like belittling yourself in the face of one you deem
superior? Worry no longer! Developed by the Minions of Glorificus,
this three-part program will start you on your way to glorious
brown-nosing. Taken directly from her three favorites, Dreg, Jinx
and Murk, these phrases are sure to get you noticed in all the
First, and most important, is the Exceedingly Complimentary Term
of Endearment (ECTE). Think of your special egomaniac as a delicious,
wonderful cake. Now go ahead and frost that cake scrumptiously
with the following. Choose one or several to suit your needs.
When you've become comfortable with these, feel free to make up
1) Most beauteous and supremely magnificent one
2) Shiny special one
3) Your elaborate marvelousness
4) Your terrifically smooth one, it is the epitome of ankles.
5) Most tingly and wonderful
6) Your creamy coolness has honored me by speaking my name. Your
voice is like a thousand sweet songbirds
7) Your extremeness
8) Perturbed, yet ultimately merciful-
9) Most silky and effervescent
10) Your most fresh and cleanness
11) Great one
12) Her magnificently-scented
13) Your inconceivableness
14) Your new and improvedness
15) Most glamorous yet tasteful one
16) Stunning one
17) Glittering, glistening Glorificus
18) Her magnificent incandescence
19) Her blindingly scrumptious luminescence
20) Perfect, all-encompassing light
21) Most sweaty-naughty-feelings-causing one
22) Your splendiforous radiance
23) Perfect, all-encompassing light, one you should feel honored
to be bathed in
Never, ever address your superior without a ECTE. Even if you've
been stabbed, by an enemy or your object of adulation, you should
always come up with something, even if it's simple. For example:
24) Most ... highest ... you.
25) O ... thou
26) Good one
Get the picture? Now that you've coated the ego of your intended
in a creamy frosting of self importance, go ahead and add the
sprinklesÑthe rainbow sprinkles of your own worthlessness.
The following Self-Degrading Phrases (SDPs) are a good way to
1) I grovel like a bug
2) Ow! Thank you.
3) Uh, begging your pardon, and begging in general, but ... were
you talking to me?
4) With all due respect and-and fear of sharp objects ...
5) I beg of you to rip out my inadequate tongue
6) This (mere trinket, sacrificial goat, dark spell) I hold in
my worthless and scabby hand is my gift to you
Finally, showing your egomaniac he or she is always right and
that you'll do anything for him/her is like a creamy scoop of
ice cream to compliment this confection you've created. Try these
Agreement & Action phrases:
1) How can we help? We'll lay down our lives.
2) I am in thunderous agreement
3) Oblivion is such a small inconvenience in the service of a
And if all else fails, my personal favorite is:
4) We will bring you Bob Barker! We will bring you the limp and
beaten body of Bob Barker!
So how much do you think a supreme but simple program like this
would cost? $50? $100? $200? Well, believe it or not this wonderful
program won't cost you a penny. That's right! All you give up
is your self-worth.
Start sychophanting, er sychophisizing, oh-----just start licking
some boot, worm!
The preceding program is solely for entertainment purposes. The
writer is not responsible for injuries sustained from attempted
boot licking, tonguectomy, or other such activities.
[> Re: Just for fun but Buffy related: Sycophancy Made Simple
-- Dichotomy, 19:46:05 12/22/03 Mon
Hello...hello...hello...is there anybody out there...
[> [> Very funny... -- The First Naughty Virtue,
20:07:46 12/22/03 Mon
And I bet Honorificus is taking notes...or having a minion do
[> OOOOooooooo nice to see my Minions practicing protocol...;)
-- Rufus, 19:56:31 12/22/03 Mon
[> Well, I thought it was hilarious! -- dub ;o), 20:01:49
Glad you delurked, Dichotomy!
[> Heheh...what a great list to help me make my New Year's
resolutions... -- Random, 20:12:29 12/22/03 Mon
Oh, and nice to see you again. Long time no see.
[> [> Re: Heheh...what a great list to help me make my
New Year's resolutions... -- Dichotomy, 14:05:46 12/23/03
It's nice to be back! I undertook a new endeavor which ate up
a lot of my free time for the past eight months.
[> Now I just have to get myself some minions.. -- jane,
21:53:01 12/22/03 Mon
I've tried teaching these rules to my cats, but they really don't
seem to care! Any spare minions out there in need of a wannabe
[> [> Rules, we don't follow no stinking rules........:):):):):):):):):)
-- Rufus (the cat not person), 22:20:07 12/22/03 Mon
[> You've forgotten my favourite one!!!! -- angel's
nibblet, 22:59:18 12/22/03 Mon
"Oh groove-tastic one!"
[> Re: Just for fun but Buffy related: Sycophancy Made Simple
-- punkinpuss, 11:39:06 12/23/03 Tue
Very groovy and funny! Thanks for that! You should make an infomercial
to go with it.
Souling: Flipping & Flopping
Angel & Spike (spoilers through Angel season 5) -- heywhynot,
15:05:32 12/22/03 Mon
While reading and responding to the thread below about the roles
Angel & Spike have played in Buffyverse apocalypses, I was reminded
of how Spike and Angel were during Becoming. Both at the time
were without souls. Spike searches Buffy out to help her fight
Angel & this is what he tells her:
(trascript copied from http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/buffy_tran_34.shtml)
"We like to talk big. Vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy
the world.' That's just tough guy talk. Strutting around with
your friends over a
pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got...
dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions
of people walking
around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then
someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for
destruction. Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Picadilly. Farewell,
Leicester Bloody Square. You know what I'm saying?"
Spike when he was w/o a soul was into the day-to-day sort of villiany,
enjoying his undead existence. He liked causing mayhem, loving
Dru, fighting, being bad in the world. Angel without a soul on
the other was into the grand plans to end the world, a super-villian
in comic-book terms.
Move forward, Angel gets his soul back and returns to the world.
What does he do? He becomes a champion, helping the helpless.
His big mission to save souls, in the process connect to the world.
He is the day-to-day hero. Even before his desouling, his role
is helping. He assists Buffy take on the role of being the Slayer,
Spike when he gets his soul is about the grand gesture epitomized
by saving the world in Chosen. He is ticked off about returning
to the world. He believed he did his part, he saved the world.
Spike becomes corporeal again & jumps at the chance to be the
vampire with a soul that is talked about in the prophecies, the
Angel while putting an effort into fighting Spike admits that
Spike wanted it more than he did. Part of Angel doesn't want to
be the super-hero. The prophecies don't say which side the vampire
with a soul will aid in the final battle. Given Angel's past experience,
does he fear that he will be on the side of evil? Spike on the
other hand doesn't seem to be much into the day-to-day heroics.
The soulless Spike enjoyed "living". Does Spike fear
the temptations of living will lead him back to life as a villian,
the little bad?
Angel while souled: Batman to Buffy's Superman while fighting
Spike while souled: Wonder Woman to Buffy's Superman
Angel w/o a soul: the super-villian
Spike w/o a soul: a villian
[> Re: Souling: Flipping & Flopping Angel & Spike (spoilers
through Angel season 5) -- sdev, 18:51:40 12/22/03 Mon
Angel without a soul on the other was into the grand plans
to end the world, a super-villian in comic-book terms.
Actually I started thinking about historical Angelus. Aside from
that one episode with Acathala, did Angelus really have grand
"end the world" designs? Is it possible that his Acathala
plan was a perverted reaction to his involvement with the anti-Apocalypse
Buffy? It seemed that when he lost his soul he became obsessed
with her in that inverted way. If her role was to stop the apocalypse,
Angelus was going to start one.
[> [> Re: Souling: Flipping & Flopping Angel & Spike
(spoilers through Angel season 5) -- Corwin of Amber, 21:06:50
Well...Angelus was bad enough that The Beast felt he had to impress
him with a pile of corpses, before asking him to do in the Svean
Priestesses. He must have done something to gain general
I've always wondered why a villian would want to destroy the world,
rather than rule it somehow, but that's just me.
[> [> [> maybe because -- Seven, 09:34:10 12/23/03
And this only works the right way in the Buffyverse, but
what if by destroying the world and making it a hell dimension
(what is usually meant by destroying the world in the Jossverse
-- except for Happy Anniversery--) what if doing that brings even
more noteriaty and leads to kingdom? Uhg, just a thought. I am
drained from the holidays and they still aren't over.
Uhm. Happy Holidays!!!! (Big Giant Fake Smile)
[> [> [> Flipping, flapping, flailing (spoilers Ang-okay,
LOTR) -- fresne, 11:29:41 12/23/03 Tue
I don't know. I always wondered why villains kept attacking the
United Nations. I mean okay, it's not good, but um, it's not like
Dr. Doom can actually take over the world by doing it.
But anyway, I now have a bad visual of Spike in the Wonder Woman
outfit. I mean, I think he's a hottie, but umm ... Nooooooooo.
Okay, actually, I have a visual of the characters from Toy Story
doing Lord of the Rings
The T-Rex is Sauron and Spike is just sort of standing there in
the lego (arms akimbo wait, no, Tick get out of there) fort,
err ... shining city (cause there's a lamp pointed at it).
Off stage, Bo Peep swoons longingly for her beloved Sheriff Ranger.
Buffy is wearing the Supergirl outfit, Superman's is bit baggy,
and she's flying (um ... jumping in the air) around bopping Mr.
Potato Head (the witch king) whose riding around on the slinky
dog (his terrifying wyvern).
"No man can kill me!" cackles, um, yells, um, says Mr.
"I'm no man." says Super-Buffy, fairly redundantly,
given the cut and jib of her wonder bra reinforced outfit.
And with a "Hi-ya!" she kicks slinky dog, who says,
"Ow! Don't hit so hard."
"Oh, I'm sorry!" says Super-Buffy, who then turns to
stab the witch king with her, um, where's her sword? A group of
army men run up with a large nail with a bit of tape wrapped around
the head and hand it to her. Super-Buffy "stabs" the
witch king with her terrible swift nail.
The witch potato sort of spins around, clutches the nail under
his arm and yells, "I'm melting!" and falls down. Waives
his arms around, "Dying, dying, killed by a slip of a girl,
dying, dying, dying, why didn't I think that Ôno man can
kill me' thing through, dying, dying, dying."
Space Adventure Pippin leans over and tells witch potato that
maybe he should die already so they can get on with the battle.
Plush Cuthulu is getting restless.
Meanwhile, back at the lego city, Angel, who is wearing a cowless
Batman outfit, is having a moment grieving, brooding, plugging
in a candle shaped Christmas ornament, for his lost, forgotten
Spike would bop Angel, but he can't move his hands away from his
"Son?" says Wesley, who is wearing a trench coat and
smoking cigarettes and looking a bit trench coat brigade seedy,
bops Angel with his staff (hey, this is a kid's movie, get your
mind out of the gutter). Wesley then says something really British
and cool and simultaneously John Constantine/Gandalf/Wesley-ish.
"Cor, Bloody Hell, Blimy." says Spike, rotating 360
degrees at the waist, "I was bloody well going to sodding
"Nice bathing suit Wonder-Spike," says Wesley and because
no really this is a children's story, there is not a bit with
Wonder-Spike's rope, a trebuchet, and a jar of chocolate sauce.
Suffice to say, there were manly tears and everyone goes off to
Course, the Orcs are from the Dungeons and Dragons play set, so
they are the size of army men, but you know, there are lots of
them. Plus huge dice, slamming periodically into the glowing lego
Meanwhile, back at Zaha!doooom/little plastic mountain, Sauro-Rex
leaps about, "Guys, guys, I'm really evil and I want to take
over the world. Roar."
Xander and Anya, who have been having a bout of inappropriate
wedding planning in the pillows of Zaha!doooom/little plastic
mountain, realize that they are holding up the triumphal, yet
sad ending and get on with walking to Zaha!doooom/little plastic
Sauro-Rex leaps around some more. "Guys, ring-wraiths, guys,
I think they're almost here. Someone please save you're Dark Evil
Lord." He waves his widdle, itty, bitty arms around. The
ring wraiths/assorted toys wearing Kleenex, start back, but then,
Plush Cuthulu arrives on the paper pirate ship with Sheriff Aragorn.
Cuthulu shines a flashlight at the ring wraiths, makes some light
saber noises and everyone wearing Kleenix falls down.
Anya and Xander briefly argue about throwing the paper ring from
the J.C. Penny's catalog into the maw of Zaha!doooom/little plastic
mountain, but Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum says, "Oh, give
me that already," shoves the bit of red tissue paper out
of the way and jumps into Zaha!doooom/little plastic mountain.
Sauro-Rex tips over, slooowwwly, flails his little, itty, bitty
arms around, and falls over.
There was much rejoicing.
Even Angel smiles.
Super-Buffy does back flips and hooks up with the easy bake oven.
Tragically, Anya and Wesley, will now have to leave on the all
purpose Pirate ship, but eyeing Wesley's stubble, Anya declares,
"So, Gandalf, why does a wizard's staff have a knob at the
Even more tragically, Wonder-Spike has to drink his glog through
a straw, because he still can't move his arms from his hips. Course
with Barbies around, that's not really a problem. "Still
the prettiest." He smirks and saunters off, arms akimbo,
with Swan Lake Barbie, Up-Town Barbie and Astronaut Barbie.
Skip goes off to play gin rummy with Dawn.
"Pockets," says the Tick, "Arthur, "I have
pockets!" And a watery tart hands
Bat-Angel a magic sword and after a drink of refreshing mountain
dew, Angel batarangs his way into the hallway.
No, really, I have nothing to do at work today.
[> [> [> [> OMG that is hilarious!! -- Ann,
11:38:29 12/23/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> OMG it's like one of my dreams, where
all my fandoms smoosh into one in a completely incoherent way!
-- angel's nibblet, 15:04:18 12/23/03 Tue
Well done! Three thumbs up! Now try adding some Harry Potter in
there ;-) my personal challenge to you...
[> [> [> [> [> A Cuthulu on the peaches
-- fresne, 16:22:50 12/23/03 Tue
You know when I was a child, and you must never tell my parents
this, but I liked to play with fire. I gathered candles and wax
and, well, in general, I was always careful to play on the tile
Here however, I must be a bit uncareful.
Wesley, prior to bopping Bat-Angel with his mighty staff (no really,
the flu is going around, get out of the gutter), sends Space Adventure
Pippin to jump off the bed, do a backflip off the drum, fly, and
light that stash of grey candle wax in the Foldiers can. In the
distance, tiny shivering army men carefully light the candle in
front of the picture of Jesus signed by Great Grandma Lukensmeyer.
The bold, but fearful, army men on the shoe stand outside the
door where the alter to Queen Barbie Head/Neferteri stands light
the jasmine candle of sacred ooogent. The electrified and not
worried about fire army men in the bathroom across the way flash
the emergency flashlight through the door into the family room.
The terrified, but brave Army men, stationed on the T.V. rappel
up the wall to light all seven candles on the leaf pattern sconce.
The singed, but dedicated army men in the doorway to the dining
room fling a match into the candle mass in the blue glass globe.
The relieved army men by the fireplace flick the gas switch.
Sheriff Aragorn runs up the foot stool cushions into the fort
that pillows made. Standing at the ottoman door, he says in a
carrying voice, "The signal lights are lit."
Harry Potter stands in the hall of his school, fingering his scarf.
He turns to Sheriff Aragorn and says, "And Hogwarts will
answer." Harry turns to his right hand man, Glass Unicorn,
and says, "Send to the east and gather the forces of the
cast of Shoggoth on the roof. Send to the south and gather
the forces of Slytherin hand puppets, because this is a time to
set aside, bladdy, blah differences. Send to the south-east and
gather swift feet of plush stuffed horses. We will wait at the
foothills of family room lazy-boy, hidden from the prying eye
of hidden camera in kitchen clock (I was fairly convinced that
my mother was monitoring cookie intake.), until the next plot
Walking, Walking, walking there's this whole digression
where Sheriff Aragorn and Wonder-Spike, his arms akimbo (don't
ask me how he got there), and Hagrid, the world's tallest dwarf,
head into the under the bar where the canned peaches of the undead
are kept seeking the dread plush Cuthulu. Not dead, but getting
Anyway, the forces of Hogwarts gather at the entry to the room.
Before them a vast sea of nuts, D&D figurines, WWI German army
figures, some small artillery, Kleenix clad toys were massed.
Harry turns to his too small, too few, too lucky, weary few, brought
so far following the still flickering candle lights. Carrying
his broom, he says, "Insert Saint Crispin's Day speech here."
And the troops cheered. And then in too thin and crescent wave,
they charged into and through the mass of prickling toothpicks/pikes.
Fortunately, unknown to them, (Although how they didn't notice
her in that outfit, I can't say.) Super-Buffy had snuck into their
forces to join the fight.
You mean something like that.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes!!!! Now make it a musical!!!!
Obey my commands puny mortal!!! *evil cackle* -- angel's nibblet,
16:47:10 12/23/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> BTW I was kinda kidding
on the whole musical thing.... kinda ;-) -- angel's nibblet,
17:30:24 12/23/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A twinkle in
my tip, tapping step, and pivet (you know, still spoiled LOTR)
-- fresne, 20:27:36 12/23/03 Tue
Ah, dear sweet bat-angel's nibblet. Do you think to command the
madness in my West Coast Swing eyes? Three rainbows surge and
spin and angels buzz the rose. Puny. Mortal. Effervesce. Feeling
unknown and you're all alone, flesh and bone by the telephone.
Lift up the receiver and I'll make you a believer, you can have
my empire of dirt. My love for Fred Astaire is pure.
Reach out and touch personal request.
Harry Potter didn't summon the fell cast of A
Shoggoth on the Roof for nothing.
The massed charge and weight of the plush animals scattered the
nuts and figure eights of the enemy. But then a groan. From the
window sill bench, a new threat arose. Five inflatable Republican
Party Elephants (and before anyone takes offense and says anything
either way, my grandfather was a Republican in the SD House of
Representatives, I had several inflatable Republican elephants.
Very cool when going on safari in the living room) lumbered across
the room. All of a sudden, the plush animals didn't seem so big
before the airy animal might of the Relephants. There was a hum
in the air. "Smiles. Black hat, white tie and tails. Smiles."
whispered the Relephants, as they marched forward to crush the
enemy beneath their mighty air filled feet. Oh, and there was
some racial stereotyping on the part of the paper cut out gnomes
who were taped to the backs of the Relephants.
"To me, form the dance line," cried out Harry Potter.
Looking at the assembled cast of A Shoggoth on the Roof,
Harry Potter said,
"Is this the little child I carried? Is this the little boy
Glass Unicorn-(Btw Glass Unicorn's horn is glued on. There
was a tragic accident a few years back. Try not to stare.)
I don't remember growing older. When did they?
When did the world grow so dark? When did they grow to be so tall?
Wasn't it yesterday when they were small and the world was bright?
Cast of Shoggoth on the Roof and Harry Potter (whose voice is
cracking nicely into a tenor)-
sunrise, sunset. sunrise, sunset. swiftly flow the days. seedlings
turn overnight to sunflowers blossoming even as we gaze
Cast of Shoggoth on the Roof and Glass Unicorn
sunrise, sunset, sunrise, sunset. swiftly fly the years. one season
following another laden with happiness and tears.
what words of wisdom can I give them? How can I help to ease their
way in battle?
now they must fight by one another, strike by strike.
sunrise, sunset, sunrise, sunset, swiftly fly the years. One season
following another laden with happiness and tears.
And lock step the cast of A Shoggoth on the Roof began
to glissando slide walk, start, stop, music counter point, down
the pile of books. Rap, tap, tap. "Like a Shoggoth on the
roof,." They sang, led by their director/lead singer, Tevye
Super-Buffy grew bored with this and ran forward armed with a
mighty pin. Darting between the massive legs of an enormous Relephant,
she ... it reared and drew a box in the air with its trunk, "Hey,
no poking. Respect the air integrity." Super-Buffy shrugged
and mimed stab, stab, stab, stabbing its legs. The Relephant rolled
over and played dead. The gnomes would have been crushed, but
they were paper and therefore flat. However, they kept humming
"Putting on the Ritz" until Super-Buffy pretended to
Tevye Snape twirled his wand and pointing it at a Relephant, he
began a furious series of staccato taps. It shuddered at the blows
of the um ... .taps.
"Hey,:" said Super-Buffy. "No fair. I did like
fighting and stuff. What's with the tap killing."
"You do what you can love." said Wonder-Spike, nimbly
running up the side of a Relephant, his arms akimbo, but there
was some lasso action, and therefore fan gurls sighed, "Let
me rest in peace." Slow legato, Kick. "Let me get some
sleep," Diminuendo reprise, and High kick, turn, "I
did it my way." Spin kick, "Life's not a song."
Tap, tap, tap, spin, jazz akimbo hands, tap, tap, tap, on the
Relephant's head, "So, bugger this and Call me Casanova,
Eternal Life, and don't forget my dog, fix-ed consequence, Astronomy,
or the life that never warms." The Relephant fell over.
"That counts as one," said Hagrid, the worlds tallest
and in this instance, most confused, dwarf. Hagrid brushed off
a couple of mini-orcs.
"Yeah, whatever. I don't even know where I'm supposed to
be in the continuity of this story." said Wonder-Spike, who
Jooss-type lunged himself (you wouldn't think you could do that
deep a lunge in jeans, but there you go.) off the battle field
and back to brooding Bat-Angel.
Brooding, brooding, brooding, "Mandy, oh, Mandy, give in
to the music of the night. It's a lot like life. Master and Servant.
Oh, Hello Wonder-Spike. Sob, music of the night."
I also feel that there is a heartfelt, Dawn/glowy ball of energy/Golem,
"I have a split personality." number in there somewhere.
Something really tasteful. Kinda artsy. Bare stage. Minimalist
props. Probably the dresser top. That way there's the huge mirror.
Some sort of fluttering fabric. All "Ho, ho, ho, who's got
the last laugh now." But you know, in a thoroughly ring deranged
sort of way.
"Where do we go from here?"
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wooooo!!!
Standing ovation!!!!! *crowd goes wild* (crowd being me) --
angel's nibblet, 14:27:02 12/25/03 Thu
I await your Dawn/glowy ball of energy/Gollum number with baited
Merry Christmas you crazy person.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The
real question is: when will I be able to buy the soundtrack?
-- angel's nibblet, 23:13:25 12/25/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> In
the busy dog days of 2003 -- fresne, 12:23:19 12/29/03
I'll admit, I'm a bit nervous given the Dawnie Sue RoTKness analytic
going on nearby, but I have a copy of The Eye of Argon
and I'm prepared to use it. And so by popular nibblet demand,
and would you believe that I don't do drugs ...
All is still on the dresser top. Dusty. Messy. Still as the grave,
if the grave were the top of a dresser with a tunnel made from
books off to one side.
Anya and Xander are snugly resting in the shirt drawer.
It had been a hard climb up the 1000 step dresser drawers of DoIhavetolookitup.
"Oh, oh, oh!" says Yellow Yarn Octopus with the Googlie
Eyes, "Is it my turn to be scary? People, I like to eat people.
Grr. Argh." She waves her braided arms with the little yellow
ribbons at each end.
"Guys, guys, I'm really evil! Roar!" says Sauro-Rex,
over at Zaha!doom/little plastic mountain, and waves his wittle,
ittle, bitty arms, which do not have pretty yellow ribbons at
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum stamps her little bare foot (She's
a hobbit, except she's a Golum and a girl and, anyway, she can't
wear shoes) and says, "Doesn't anyone even notice that it's
time for my big dance number."
"Could someone explain why Golum has a big dance number?"
says Sauro-Rex, hopping from one ginormous leg to the other and
waving his cutsey, wootsey, wittle arms.
Yellow Yarn Octopus with the Googlie Eyes shrugs. A lot. And her
eyes bobble and googlie.
Sauro-Rex mutters, "I want a big dance number."
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum ignores him. Oh, and Dawn is wearing
the new pink, (i.e., black) and is dressed like Audry Hepburn
in Funny Face. You know in Paris. In the bar. That scene
where Fred Astaire just sort of stands there and is all, "Kids
today and what they call dancing." Like that. But with no
shoes. And with a piece of green tinsel around her neck, cause
she's green and glowy. Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum, not Audry,
A hundred army men stand to one side doing warm up stretches.
Limited edition Mr. Spock, still in his plastic bag, chats with
Yellow Yarn Octopus with the Googlie Eyes. So, I guess the dresser
top wasn't really still. More crowded like a really crowded graveyard,
if a graveyard were the top of a dresser covered with toys doing
warm up exercises.
Ahem, where was I? Oh, yeah, the big dance number.
The army men start to hum, Somethings Gotta Give.
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum turns to face the mirror behind
the dresser, stands on one foot (Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum,
not the mirror) and assumes the Holding a Jug of Water on my
Head position, "Oh, Precious, oh Precious. How I hates
them, oh Precious, my Precious." Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum
performs the Throw the Jug of Water Away move and cha cha
chas onto the other foot and assumes the I'm a Ballerina on
a Music Box position.
Music Box Ballerina raps her staff on the floor, nods approvingly
and hops back to Bat-Angel to discuss his Music of the Night number.
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum sings, "Then we must kills
them. We must kills them. Takes them to Miss Hungry Yarn and gets
our Precious back," as she flaps her arms like a really deranged
"Yes, you must!" sing the army men, "Yes, you must!"
"Pure energy!" sings Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic
"I'm a little key, short and thin," sings Dawn/green
glowy energy/Golum, "Here is my handle," as she puts
her right hand on her hip, "And here is my green glowy energy
thingy," waving her green strand of tinsel in her left hand,
"Pure energy!" sings Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic
bag. "Oh, the Pain!"
"Pure energy! Oh, the pain!" sing the army men, who
rush back and forth across the dresser top, holding pieces of
"Does nobody even notice that I'm in-sane!" sings Dawn/green
glowy energy/Golum, as she extends both arms in the Dramatic
"Precious does." sing the army men, as they run around
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum with their bits of green tinsel,
"Precious. Precious. Precious."
"Pure energy!" sings Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum tries to run across the dresser
top, but she is surrounded. Surrounded! By little army men with
green tinsel. Fluttering. Fluttering! Fluttering! Gestures of
horror and dismay! Dismay!
The army men begin to hum They All Laughed.
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum makes with the jazz hands and spins
on one foot. The army men scatter. She sings, "The odds were
a hundred to one a-gainst us/
The world thought the heights were too high to climb/But people
from Middle earth never in-censed us."
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum jumps up and down, "Except,
when they did precious, precious and we killed them. Yes we did."
"She has ish-shues." sing the army men, rustling their
green tinsel, "She has issues!"
"Precious. Yellow Yarn Octopus is Hun-gry!" sings Mr.
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum does a little soft shoe (only with
bare feet), "They all laughed at Elwing of Sundering/When
she said the world was round./They all laughed when ESrendil recorded
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum does a Jooss style lunge, "And
so he killed them, yes he did, Precious. Precious."
"She has ish-shues." sing the army men, rustling their
green tinsel, "She has issues!"
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum assumes the Flying like a Leaping
Tiger position and sings, "They all laughed at Angmar
and his brother/When they said that man could fly./They told Palantiri
wireless was a phoney./It's the same old try."
The army men march across the stage in nine rows, waving their
tinsel. Waving their tinsel!
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum dances like a butterfly, "They
laughed at me, wanting you./Said I was reaching for the evil ring
that binds them with runes.
But oh, you came through./Now they'll have to change their tune."
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum jumps, spins, pivots, does a brief
scissor kick and waves her arms in the air, "Because She
will eat them. Yes She will."
"Yes she will, yes she will," sing the army men, still,
you know, marching, only now they are circling Dawn/green glowy
energy/Golum in big rings. Get it. Rings.
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum begins to step, hop, step, hop,
step, step, step, hop, between the army men, "They all said
we never would be happy./Precious, let's take a bow./But ho, ho,
ho./Who's got the last laugh now?"
"Ho, ho, ho. Who's got the last laugh now?" sing the
army men, marching around on the dresser top, waving their green
"Ho, ho, ho. Who's got the last laugh now?" sings Dawn/green
glowy energy/Golum, who is now at Ôstage' front center.
The army men stop marching. Everyone takes a bow.
"Pure energy." whispers Mr. Spock, crackling his plastic
Anya and Xander climb up from the shirt drawer. "Did you
just have a big dance number?" asks Xander.
"Nope. Just, oh, look a really scary spider thingy!"
Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum points to the tunnel between
stacks of books at one end of the dresser top and Yellow Yarn
Octopus with the Googlie Eyes waves her braided yarn arms. As
Xander and Anya turn to look, that sneaky Dawn/green glowy energy/Golum
runs away. Yes, she does. Yes, she does.
[> [> [> [> don't have a cow, batman! -- anom,
11:31:40 12/25/03 Thu
Well, you said it was a cowless Batman outfit.
This was hilarious, fresne--fantastic in every sense of the word.
And that goes for all 3 installments, even though I didn't get
half the references in the 3rd.
My mind is refusing that bad Wonder-Spike visual...or trying to....
And he can't move his hands from his hips? Did somebody bind his
wonder-bracelets together? Wait, then the hands would have to
be on the opposite hips, wouldn't they? But he still couldn't
Oh, & I loved the toothpikes.
And the whole thing makes me think of a button that says: "I
bought the Civil War chess set and the Star Trek chess set. Now
I have the South fight the Klingons." OK, it has no characters
in common w/your scenario, but it's in the same spirit.
[> [> [> [> try this crossover -- skeeve, 08:40:52
[> [> [> Re: Souling: Flipping & Flopping Angel & Spike
(spoilers through Angel season 5) -- sdev, 08:54:52 12/25/03
Yes, it is clear that Angelus has notoriety in the demon world,
but I see nothing to indicate that it is of the apocalyptic variety.
I have the impression that it is for his strength, intelligence,
ruthlessness and destructiveness, as in eating the village.
As to destroying the world, who besides Willow wanted to do that?
And she was nihilistic at that point. Glory wanted to return to
her own home dimension and did not care about the consequences
of opening the walls between dimensions. Angelus wanted to suck
the world into hell. I assume as Angelus he thought he would fit
in better in hell than on the earthly dimension.
Happy holidays of all varieties.
Idle midnight thoughts (Spoilers
up to 5.8) -- Doriander, 21:51:07 12/22/03 Mon
The re-airing of Unleashed got me renewably irked by the WB ending
but did inspire some thinking up of choice tracks for hypothetical
scenarios (::cough::wish list::cough::) on AtS.
1. Sly (Massive Attack)
-Angel's "going through the motions". Song is just evocative
of S5 (at least to my ears)--blasZ disposition for Angel, vaguely
unsettling as result of the mind wipe for the others especially
Wes, W&H miasma, alienation, disillusion, self-delusion, nostalgia...
2. Sinnerman (Nina Simone)
-frantic track for Angel and Spike, vying in yet another escapade
3. Small Plot of Land - Basquiat version (David Bowie)
-cues as we behold Connor the moment the mind wipe unravels
4. Moon River
-I'm enamored with HBO's film adaptation of Angels in America,
and one of its many enrapturing scenes had me enamored with this
little ditty. And how it would make for a twisted narrative track
for AtS. I'm envisioning this episode concluding montage--the
cast engaged in varying occupations at varying locations a la
CwDP. Esoteric whistling of the Moon River melody threads
us through the sequence. AiA also got me hankering for AtS to
have location shoots in NYC (I just want more of the grit back,
less of the synthetic W&H set). The subway being the closest facsimile...I've
this particular tableau in mind, to coincide with the "two
drifters..." stanza: depleted Connor and Spike in the train,
nearly empty car, seated back to back, oblivious of each other--just
an affecting picture of symmetry (I wantsss this sooo bad. At
least one scene with Connor and Spike the caliber of Faith-Spike
basement convo. One scene of them in the same frame. They needn't
know, or even acknowledge each other at all. I just needsss visual
nod. Pwease, Mutant Enemy?). La-di-da, other characters, then
Angel. Camera lingers on our champ...slowly hovers till he's out
of frame...transition to nightime urban streetscape...camera hovers
till this figure comes into frame, reveal esoteric whistling being
rendered by none other than Lindsey, eyes sparkling knowingly
as he saunters past, camera follows his retreating form. BLACK
Additional tracks if Virgin Records were to produce an album (falls
into the category of ideal theme songs though not exactly viable
for narrative use. At least not on a show like AtS. Too...too
::recalls cringe making Gangsta's Paradise in Double or Nothing::
first one on the list, maybe, but Smallville co-opted it already.
-Hurt (Johnny Cash) - couldn't be a more perfect for Angel
-Numb (Linkin Park) - Connor, Spike and Wes' angry anthem
-Like a Stone (Audioslave) - anthem for the estranged, the prodigals
in the AtS sense of the word, which would be...oh right, most
everyone in the cast at one point or another (also, mmmm...Chris
What else? No Mandy. The Gorillaz track in that one ep would be
cool. Probably some of Lorne's signature songs like Lady Marmalade.
Christian Kane's song in Dead End. Too Drunk to Fuck. Ahhh yes,
"Weeee are the chaaaampions..." ;-p
My wet dream of an album cd-rom bonus feature: The Darkness' "I
Believe in a Thing Called Love" video (which you could view
in full, streaming video on their website if you've long gone
off on MTV. These guys just tickle me)
-a tribute video starring Spike (playing vocalist Justin Hawkins),
Connor and Lindsey. Electro girl and Harmony may have been enlisted
as well. Shot by shot remake, but infused with endearing guerilla
film making sensibility--Lorne's outfits for costumes; letting
loose in Angel's penthouse, his bed, his bath, his satins; sneaking
in the white room for some of the shots; quick hop into another
dimension for the more exotic backdrops, then back "accidentally"
delaying sealing the portal so that a giant of a crab like creature
manages to get through. (And hey, Joss could even splice in a
Serenity shout out here).
What would be your ideal song list for an AtS album?
Happy Holidays! Wishing yours is more eventful than mine.
[> Re: Idle midnight thoughts (Spoilers up to 5.8) --
puss, 18:35:49 12/23/03 Tue
Was just listening to this song. Made me think of AtS season 2.
Shut off/Curl Up
Nothing to do with AtS, though. It's from 1997.
Did the Council ever find
out that Buffy died? -- Ames, 11:48:32 12/23/03 Tue
Watching S5 again on DVD, and the early episodes of S6 repeated
on Space lately, I wondered if the Watchers Council ever found
out that Buffy died.
I guess that Giles might have had a conversation with them to
let them know that Glory was defeated, but he might have had reasons
of his own to keep up the deception that Buffy was still alive.
If the Council knew that Buffy was dead, wouldn't they have wanted
an active Slayer at the Hellmouth? As far as we know, the one
and only active Slayer after Buffy's death was Faith, and she
was in prison in LA. The Council didn't like Faith, so maybe they
wouldn't have wanted her. But they're a pretty ruthless bunch
- would they have tried to have her killed to activate a new Slayer
under their control?
Giles said that he met with the Council when he was back in England
in After Life, but from the timing that must have been after the
phone call from Willow telling him that Buffy was back. Maybe
he never told them about her death.
[> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died?
-- Evan, 13:46:40 12/23/03 Tue
I think he probably didn't tell the council, for the reasons you
gave. But for how long could he possibly have thought this buffybot
would be an adequate replacement? It seems like leaving Willow,
Xander, Anya, Dawn & Tara in Sunnydale with the Buffy Bot and
then leaving for England without ever telling the council that
the slayer was dead was a really terrible plan.
What I really don't get, though, is how they got her buried in
the graveyard, with a stone and everything, without actually telling
anyone she was dead. Even assuming that the graveyard would allow
such a thing, what if someone from Dawn's school had noticed it?
Or, worse yet, a vampire?
[> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died?
-- Claudia, 14:22:52 12/23/03 Tue
If they were trying to keep Buffy's death a secret, why erect
a grave stone with her name, in the first place?
[> [> [> As a tribute to their friend who they loved
very much who died! -- Rob, 14:29:29 12/23/03 Tue
Besides the fact that it was not common knowledge for every vamp
in town knew that the slayer's name was Buffy. Most of them just
know her as the Slayer. And as Finn points out, her grave wasn't
in a graveyard but in a secluded spot.
[> [> [> [> Re: As a tribute to their friend who
they loved very much who died! -- Claudia, 15:29:44 12/23/03
"Besides the fact that it was not common knowledge for every
vamp in town knew that the slayer's name was Buffy. Most of them
just know her as the Slayer."
But weren't the Scoobies trying to keep Buffy's death a secret
from the authorities, as well? Even if the grave was in the middle
of the woods, how would that stop someone from stumbling across
[> [> [> [> [> Because they're woods; their
nature is to stop people stumbling across things in them --
Finn Mac Cool, 16:02:50 12/23/03 Tue
Unless someone really went looking for something for a long time
in the Sunnydale woods, odds are no one would come upon the tombstone
[> [> [> [> [> [> More to the point, the
woods *were* near Sunnydale, one assumes.. -- Random, 19:38:40
Odds are even greater that someone wandering in those woods
wouldn't make it out alive again
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Great point!
-- Rob, 08:41:11 12/30/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> Isn't Buffy's name world renowed
16:17:38 12/23/03 Tue
Didn't Dracula say something to that effect in "Buffy vs
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Isn't Buffy's name world
renowed -- angel's nibblet, 16:40:02 12/23/03 Tue
I think maybe it's more her reputation that is world renowned-
as the current reigning slayer. As we've seen in the past, the
actual identity of the slayer as a human being is often viewed,
at least by some, as secondary to their abilities as the slayer.
Quite often when we see the Big Bad and assorted little bads talking
about Buffy they refer to her as "the Slayer" as opposed
to "Buffy" or "Buffy, the Slayer".
Therefore I guess it would be possibile for Buffy to be 'world
renowned' without most demons knowing or using her name.
If that makes any sense?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Isn't Buffy's name
world renowed -- Vapthorne,
18:31:51 12/23/03 Tue
To quote the episode
Dracula: "You know who I am. As I would now without question
that you are Buffy Summers."
Buffy: "You're heard of me?"
Dracula: "Naturally. You're known throughout the world."
And a quote from the episode "The Gift"
Buffy: "Wow. Been a long while since I met one who didn't
As we can tell, the name Buffy Summers is linked to the term vampire
slayer, since it reached the ears of the natives in Translyvania.
Also, in the timeline of the Gift, Buffy found it surprising that
a fledgling. Did not know who she was.
What can this tell us? Maybe, absolute knowledge of her identity
is not known to every vampire. Unless I'm mistaken, vampires and
demons that first afoul with Buffy on patrol reconize her on sight
as the 'Slayer'. Either they have linked a face to their current
mortal enemy, and simply refer to her as 'slayer' with a spiteful
tone rather than by name as a means to show their discontent (since
addressing someone by name is a little more respectful, and the
curtosy given by Dracula). We don't exactly how many vampires/demons
know this: but the rumor mill is churning names.
The other explaination for this is maybe it's the supernatural
senses of some demons and vampires alerts them (thus making the
slayer's job harder without the element of surprise), or they
just assume every female who happens to fight back is a potential
(a foolish assumption on the monster's part).
You can take your pick on the theories.
Now, the question is: if a random vampire who stumbled on Buffy's
grave. Would he make the connection? Maybe, maybe not. I don't
recall the tombstone saying 'Slayer' anywhere, and he has either
seen or heard of the slayer running around (Buffybot). Most likely,
he'll assume that the grave was someone else who shared the same
name. It'd be a huge leap of logic to assume that there be a robotic
replacement running around.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dracula isn't a good
example... -- Rob, 19:55:21 12/23/03 Tue
...because he did not fit the "regular" vampire rules
by any means and nothing he said could be taken at face value.
He is a grand, master illusionist and manipulater. His words about
Buffy being known throughout the world could have just as easily
been an initial buttering-her-up before he swooped down for the
The second example you gave again only proves that she is known
by vampires, many times at sight, as the Slayer. That is not mutually
exclusive with the concept of knowing her name, though. A vampire
can tell a girl is the Slayer (a) simply because she has the same
supernatural strength he does or (b) had already seen her fight
Also, you have to remember that the Buffybot was active and kicking
butt, to further dissaude any vamps who might have stumbled onto
the grave into linking the name with the Slayer, because she seemed
to be very much alive at the time.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dracula
isn't a good example... -- Vapthorne, 20:28:11 12/23/03
Good point about Dracula's manipulative nature. However, we know
without a doubt, Dracula learned about Buffy's name and secret
identity. The information had to reached his ear all the way from
Sunnydale. Also, in the Prom, it's been suggested that the student
body is aware of Buffy's heroics (though, not the fact she's the
slayer). That generated into some talk, and quite a few extra
vampire are ex-high school students. Then, we know that the every
seasonal 'big bad' knows Buffy's identity.
If many, or in fact, any vampire can pin the face (an exact mug
shot, as opposed to a vague description) to the slayer. Then,
any vampire with a shred of intelligence can find a name to match
(again, not to many vampires have that). They can't assume that
seeing someone with supernatural prowless equals slayer on first
sight. Well they can, but that just a leap in logic considering
somebody could get similar supernatural strength through means
of magic or science.
That I remember the Buffybot, in fact, I've made a note about
it in my last post. Like I said, they'd assume it was someone
else named 'Buffy' :-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> However,
-- Dead (& feeling contentious, or maybe just quarrelsome) Soul,
22:18:16 12/23/03 Tue
In Doppelgangland, fairly young Vamp!Willow & Vamp!Xander
both knew of her and knew her name. In a Sunnydale where Buffy
had never been.
Cordelia said that the world was better when Buffy was there,
but she never identified Buffy as the Slayer.
My guess is that the vamp & demon grapevine keeps pretty much
every(one) up on the current identity and location of the Slayer.
"She should talk to her people. That name's striking fear
in no one's heart."
So I hope her grave was very well hidden.
[> [> It wasn't in a graveyard -- Finn Mac Cool,
14:27:18 12/23/03 Tue
In "Bargaining" it seemed to be in the middle of the
[> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died?
-- skpe, 14:28:19 12/23/03 Tue
From watching Bargaining I and Bargaining II it appears that Buffy
was not in a cemetery but secretly buried in the woods
[> [> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy
died? -- DEN, 15:40:02 12/23/03 Tue
This seems another example of the difficulties ME had from the
beginning in conceptualizing S6. The pattern of going for "effects"
rather than developing coherent, convincing story lines was present
from the opening scenes.
[> [> [> [> Not understanding . . . -- Finn
Mac Cool, 16:05:24 12/23/03 Tue
How do those two things fit together? Since the Scoobies didn't
let anyone know Buffy was dead, they couldn't bury her in a graveyard,
so they'd need to go to some out of the way place to do it.
[> [> [> [> ???? -- Claudia, 07:43:49 12/24/03
"This seems another example of the difficulties ME had from
the beginning in conceptualizing S6. The pattern of going for
"effects" rather than developing coherent, convincing
story lines was present from the opening scenes."
What do you mean by this? There was nothing wrong with the story
line for Season 6 - other than Willow's problem with magic being
handled in a heavy-handed manner in the episode, "Wrecked".
[> [> Re: Did the Council ever find out that Buffy died?
-- The Sorcerer, 07:14:57 12/24/03 Wed
Actually, every big bad knew of Buffy's identity EXCEPT for Glory,
who later found out the identity of the super-powered blonde from
a scabby scavenger demon. We had never seen this demon before,
yet he seemed to know exactly who the Slayer was by description.
[> What influence does the council hold in this matter.
18:53:36 12/24/03 Wed
To answer this question, "If the Council knew that Buffy
was dead, wouldn't they have wanted an active Slayer at the Hellmouth?".
I've wondered about that subject, and asked myself.
-The Council did not locate Buffy to the Hellmouth in any direct
fashion. She moved there because her mother found a job there,
and Giles said it was nothing more than fate.
-Prior to Buffy, there was not always a slayer stationed at the
-In Graduation, Buffy just walked out and quit the council. Let's
assume they were unhappy and wanted a more controllable slayer.
Why didn't they just find mean to dispose of her? I'd be surprised
if this was not the first slayer who've rebelled against their
authority (unless they have good indoctrine techniques). One answer
might be since she died and is no longer the slayer of the line:
they did really care.
Based off this rough data, I'd think that Council has little say
about where a slayer should be stationed. The recruit the slayers
based off prophecy, so it seems that destiny calls the shots.
Which might explain why they had not subbed Faith inorder to op
for a more disciplined slayer.
| More December 2003