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Why Wolfram and Hart's? -- Claudia, 14:28:17 12/23/03 Tue

Imagine this scenario:

Spike and the rest of the Angel Investigations team are sitting around in AngelÕs penthouse and he suddenly asks each team member why they had decided to join Wolfham & Hart. What do you think their answers would be?







[> Re: Why Wolfram and Hart's? -- Gyrus, 16:17:01 12/23/03 Tue

Angel: "Mainly because of Co- um, the coffee. Yeah. You can get it with blood here, you know."

Fred: "Well, they have a great lab, and Knox is really helpful and nice and everything. And, well, it was this or go home and live with my folks."

Gunn: "You been to the White Room? You go see what's up there, and then we'll talk."

Lorne: "Are you kidding? With the kind of talent I can work with here? This beats listening to Jobar the Pus Demon mutilating 'Dancing Queen' at Caritas any day of the week."

Wesley: "This place offers us the resources we need to do some real good in the world. Also, someone other than me cleans the demon slime off my Bavarian fighting adze at the end of the day."

Reading Faces -- DorianQ, 00:25:14 12/24/03 Wed

I know this sounds kind of silly, but I was just reading a review of The Puppet Show and it got me thinking; what are the best or most interesting facial expressions we've seen on the show?

I have my own preliminary list:

Buffy: I picked two; Her single tear in Prophecy Girl when she realized the full meaning of the prophecy and its implications, and the final look of the series when she smiles at the end of Chosen because she finally has a choice.

Xander: his very uncomfortable smile in Phases when he realizes what Larry was REALLY talking about.

Dawn and Spike: their looks to each other when they realize that he failed to save her and there was nothing more he could do.

Willow: the completely knocked over look she has in Once More, With Feeling when she realizes what she really tore Buffy away from.

Jenny: the look she gives to Giles in When She Was Bad when she tells him it depends on the book.

Oz: Choices (you know which one).

Riley: The Replacement at the end when he calmly tells Xander what he knows about Buffy's feelings for him.

Angel: Becoming Part II; the look of total shock, pain, and incomprehension when he sees what Buffy just did to him and he doesn't know why.

Cordelia: In Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered when she realizes that Xander brewed up a massive, big bad spell...just for her.

Anya: One of her first; when she's taken aback that Cordy wants revenge on Buffy and not Xander in The Wish and the look of joy on her face when she's dancing and singing in Selfless

Tara: in The Body when you first see her and she's trying to calm Willow down.

and lastly and easily the best:

Giles: The Puppet Show. Cordelia. Singing. Oh the horror.

So that's what I think. Anyone else?

OT - Army for Dummies? -- KdS, 05:28:05 12/24/03 Wed

I'm working towards some more Firefly character analyses for my LJ, and I'm worried that some of my assumptions about the wartime activities of, in particular, Mal, Zoe and Book are based on blatantly false assumptions. Is there any fanfic resource, not necessarily for any specific universe, aimed at preventing those of us without military backgrounds from making stupid mistakes when dealing with military (specifically army) characters/settings? Particular areas of interest are the levels of segregation or integration between conscripts and career military personnel in wartime combat units, whether there is any rank above which an officer can be guaranteed not to be involved in frontline combat, and the actual activities and responsibilities of military intelligence personnel of varying ranks in wartime situations. I know that there are some people reading this who are variously into B5, Star Trek, Farscape and Stargate, all of which have military settings of various degrees of realism. Thanks in advance.


[> Re: OT - Army for Dummies? -- Vapthorne, 16:58:43 12/24/03 Wed

For a good look at a Star Wars vs Star Trek website, click here. It very pro-Star Wars, but the web author knows what he's talking about. Most of everything deals with a technical comparision, but they have a good section on military. For that, I'd suggest the Battles topic under Essays, the Tactics section, and if you have time, read the database (mostly on TNG) which will mention some point about tactics in the screenplays.

What's this good for. It not a generic military resource for the sci-fi (the link section leads to one, but it seems broken). However, this will give a good look into the what to assume what stupid mistakes the popular sci-fi series had done in the past.


[> [> Thanks, Vapthorne -- KdS, 03:34:03 12/25/03 Thu

I've seen that site before, and it concentrates more on tech and tactics than organisation. Good site in general though, although the owner's political prejudices are very apparent at times.

[> [> [> General Buffy -- skpe, 20:01:37 12/27/03 Sat

A very interesting site and it made me think about what a bad general buffy was in ÔChosenÕ Not to be to hard on the girl she after all had no experience or training in leading troops and had only hand to hand fights with small numbers of demons or vamps. But still her tactics verged on the suicidal, charging into the hell mouth against what she new were thousands of uber-vamps with 30 odd girls armed with only with Swords and cross bows. I mean if spike had not become effulgent they would not have had a chance even as 30 slayers. CouldnÕt they at least have brought along a few flamethrowers, (like she used against the mayor)?. And while guns would be no good against vamps the would have worked on the Bringers. Even a few molintoff cocktails tossed over the cliff would have helped.

[> [> [> [> Re: General Buffy -- dlgood, 21:31:31 12/27/03 Sat

Judging General Buffy in S7 - she's a lusy general. But this is largely due to the fact that JW clearly knows little about the Art of War. As a storytelly, JW has a hard time showing Buffy as a skilled general if he doesn't know what a skilled general is.

Leadership - A Sign of Moral Superiority? -- Claudia, 07:34:28 12/24/03 Wed

While going through the site's archive, I stumbled across a debate over which souled vampire deserved the Shanshu prophecy. Someone made a list of reasons why Angel should get the Shanshu, instead of Spike. Among those reasons was because Angel was willing to assume the responsibilities of leadership and not Spike, Angel was morally superior and therefore, deserved the Shanshu.

I am not joking. Someone actually posted this reason. Now, I ask you - is leadership supposed to be a sign of moral superiority? And is Spike supposed to be morally inferior, because he rarely assumes leadership over others? Is this supposed to be a duty of his?


[> Re: Leadership - A Sign of Moral Superiority? -- Ames, 08:18:30 12/24/03 Wed

Sure. In our list of typical qualities of a "hero" is the notion that a hero is prepared to sacrifice themselves for others. Leadership is fundamentally about taking responsibility for others, although there can also be self-serving aspects. On balance I think that taking on leadership, reluctantly but effectively, is one sign of a hero. Angel qualifies on that score. He's more comfortable being a leader than a follower, but he'd rather do it all himself than lead others. But others look to him for leadership, so he takes on that responsibility reluctantly. Spike is still an immature child in that respect - he never thinks of taking responsibility for others, preferring to sit on the sidelines and take cheap shots at those who try. So far he's never gotten any further than reluctantly taking responsibility for a child placed in his care (Dawn).

[> [> Re: Leadership - A Sign of Moral Superiority? -- Corwin of Amber, 08:54:06 12/24/03 Wed

Spike could learn a lot if Angel left him in charge for a day. Of course, Angel would never do that, because in a lot of ways he thinks of Spike as a child that can't be trusted, and he's not completely wrong. Come to think of it, Angel would learn a lot by putting Spike in charge for a day. :)

[> [> [> You're Kidding - Right? -- Claudia, 12:03:46 12/24/03 Wed

You've got to be kidding, right?

Why is it so important for a "hero" or "champion" to become a leader? Because quite frankly, I don't see why it is necessary. Shouldn't it be more important for a person to at least take responsibility for his or her own life and actions - whether good or bad?

[> [> [> [> Re: You're Kidding - Right? -- Corwin of Amber, 18:40:55 12/24/03 Wed

You've got to be kidding, right?

No, I'm not kidding. I think it would be educational for both Angel and Spike to walk a mile in each other's shoes. Neither of them would do it voluntarily, because of their own flaws.

Why is it so important for a "hero" or "champion" to become a leader? Because quite frankly, I don't see why it is necessary. Shouldn't it be more important for a person to at least take responsibility for his or her own life and actions - whether good or bad?

I kind of call taking responsibility for your own actions being an adult. It's expected of everybody past a certain age. Becoming a leader, setting an example for others, I call that being a hero.

Of course, by my definations, neither Spike nor Angel is an adult or a hero.

[> [> [> [> [> Is Angel that great a leader? -- Ray, 22:23:00 12/25/03 Thu

Prefers to brood alone and often has to be forced to interact with his own people.
Fired/Abandoned his team when things got tough.
Was happiest when Wesley was put in charge of time.
Missed all the obvious signs of stress that was tearing Wesley apart.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Is Angel that great a leader? -- Corwin of Amber, 22:35:54 12/25/03 Thu

In a lot of ways, Angel is a terrible leader, but then most leaders don't choose to become such, they get chosen by circumstances, and then grow into the role.

Actually...all of our superfolks...Angel, Spike, Buffy - are really not "natural" leaders, if there is such a thing. Angel and Buffy have both been forced by circumstances into the role, it would be entertaining to see Spike forced into it as well.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: You're Kidding - Right? -- Claudia, 07:57:01 12/29/03 Mon

"Becoming a leader, setting an example for others, I call that being a hero."

I disagree. In my opinion, leadership isn't a sure sign of being a hero. Being a leader seems like a shallow excuse to call someone a hero.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're Kidding - Right? -- Corwin of Amber, 20:52:22 12/29/03 Mon

Being a leader seems like a shallow excuse to call someone a hero.

Can you give me an example, so I can see where you're coming from?

Or maybe better, can you give me your defination of a hero?

[> [> [> A Child? -- Claudia, 12:06:06 12/24/03 Wed

"Of course, Angel would never do that, because in a lot of ways he thinks of Spike as a child that can't be trusted, and he's not completely wrong."

I believe Angel is wrong. I think that one of Angel's main problems is that he has always underestimated Spike as a person (as he does several others). It has tripped him up in the past and if he continues this kind of thinking, it will trip him up in the future.

Spike has his flaws, but it seems a superiority complex is not one of them. At least this kind of superiority complex.

[> [> [> one is the loneliest number -- sdev, 07:45:56 12/26/03 Fri

I agree. Faith, for instance, learned a lot when the rebellion against Buffy put her in charge in S7. For one thing Faith learned that the leadership role Buffy had was not necessarily enviable. That being the leader was a frightening and lonely position.

[> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number --, 08:07:55 12/28/03 Sun

well this is a bit off topic but -
I'm newly responsible at work for managing someone. This woman is driving me crazy because
a. she knows her department inside out and resents me, a newbie, telling her what to do
b. Yet, if she makes a mistake, she won't take responsibility for it, it's always somebody elses fault, frequently the hapless client's, or mine, for not reminding her of the procedure, the one she knows thoroughly and I don't.
It is my responsibility to resolve the situation, which means assuming a leadership role, taking decisions, and taking the responsibility for those decisions, whether they are right or wrong. I am less well equipped to do this than she is, but I end up telling her exactly what to do, because her failure to take responsibility means that any mistakes made can't be corrected, since she won't admit that anything wrong was done in the first place.

It seems to me that leadership has a lot to do with this, not passing the buck, risking being wrong, which entails putting things right afterwards; basically being the person who is accountable.
(So I'd say yeah, Angel's a leader alright - that it's not so much about being right, as about being accountable.) And yeah I think it's quite heroic: it's risky and potentially humiliating. Plus, poor chap - isn't there enough already he's feeling accountable for?

Of course there's also the question of people being willing to do what you say. Angel & Spike - why would anybody feel they had to do what either of them said?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number- part OT -- sdev, 10:38:53 12/28/03 Sun

Yet, if she makes a mistake, she won't take responsibility for it, it's always somebody elses fault

Sympathizing greatly here. This drives me up the wall and is hard to fix. I hope you donÕt mind my volunteering some suggestions here. What I have tried is a two pronged approach. 1) I admit my own mistakes clearly and promptly 2) I make numerous remarks about real "others" who lack the maturity to admit their mistakes, and how of course everyone makes them so it is ridiculous not to acknowledge and move on. I've had some limited success.

Of course there's also the question of people being willing to do what you say. Angel & Spike - why would anybody feel they had to do what either of them said?

But Angel was readily followed by Cordelia, Wesley, and Gunn until he fired them. They looked to him for leadership and were initially lost without him. Then when he came back Wesley kept that role for a short time till it devolved back to Angel.

Some people do seem to be natural leaders. Buffy seemed to have a pattern to her leadership. There was consensual decision making up to a point and then when the situation reached crisis proportions she took charge often with some intuited plan.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number- part OT -- oshunwunmi, 14:40:55 12/28/03 Sun

Thanks sdev. (For the advice. One of the things I'm really sick about is that tactics havn't worked, being authoritarian seems to work better, and I'm highly uncomfortable relating in this way to another adult!)

I guess the question was a bit of a tease. Angel the character has earned a lot of authority over the seasons, at the same time as being frequently spectacularly wrong. It's one of the things I particularly like about the series, that there isn't an aspect of his appearence, persona, personality or motivation that the writers havn't played with, subverted or (rather cruelly) mocked. To me this doesn't detract from him being a heroic figure but adds to it. It's like an admission of what it's like to be grown up: a complete person is sometimes stupid, sometimes vulnerable, often wrong and frequently uncool.

Spike the character: what has he done to earn authority? He has risked his life - how about risking his dignity, or his integrity as a cool demony guy?

I suppose my biases are pretty clear here. Looking through the archives there has been plenty of discussion on the board of what constitutes true heroism, true repentance, the nature of responsibilty and so's just that I find the murky, ambiguous, rather baleful way the Ats writers treat subjects such as optimism and moral certainty much more sympathetic to my evolving life experience than any clear-cut message ever could be. I love that lack of certainty! And I'm really looking forward to seeing the writers put Spike through the wringer in the same way they've been doing to Angel....

[> [> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number -- Claudia, 08:00:29 12/29/03 Mon

"And yeah I think it's quite heroic: it's risky and potentially humiliating. Plus, poor chap - isn't there enough already he's feeling accountable for?"

There are other ways to be heroic, without simply assuming leadership. Nor do I believe that Spike needs to be a leader to be consider a hero. I think it takes more than that.

It takes courage of a certain magnitude. And what I mean by courage, I mean simply more than taking charge of a group of people. Anyone with leadership skills can do that. And mess up, at the same time.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number -- Dlgood, 08:36:47 12/29/03 Mon

It takes courage of a certain magnitude. And what I mean by courage, I mean simply more than taking charge of a group of people. Anyone with leadership skills can do that. And mess up, at the same time.

Being a "leader" involves a lot more than simply "taking charge of a group of people", and not anyone can do it well.

There is a reason good leadership is so valued. It requires sublimation of the self, sacrifice in the name of greater good, a concern for others, and tremendous responsibility. In meeting and responding to the pressures of internal and external expectations.

It takes tremendous courage and hard work to excercise good leadership, and to take on those responsibilities.

Spike, on BtVS, has frequently been given all manner of physical constraints like paralysis, the chip, and his ghostliness - all to make up for the fact that unlike the characters who try to lead, he doesn't take on the moral constraints and obligations of leadership. He doesn't need to have as much courage as others, because he doesn't have to deal with his problems and still struggle to be a leader and caretaker. He has a lesser degree of difficulty. His struggles, while hard for him, are far simpler and easier than those of a person with greater responsibilities.

Which, again, is why leaders are more heroic.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number -- Rose, 14:26:52 12/30/03 Tue

Judging from your arguments, I'd say that you are using any excuse to put down Spike out of either personal dislike or personal preference for Angel. If I sound insulting, I'm sorry. But your previous posts have always given me this impression and this last one, has just confirmed.

There are plenty of people with a talent for leadership who are probably not heroic. Some people become leaders due to a thirst for power. Or perhaps he or she is a control freak. It takes more than being a leader to be heroic. I certainly don't think that Spike has to take the reins of leadership to be considered one.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number -- Dlgood, 17:09:19 12/30/03 Tue

Judging from your arguments, I'd say that you are using any excuse to put down Spike out of either personal dislike or personal preference for Angel.

Great counterargument. Launch a personal attack (you just don't like Spike!) and completely duck the legitimate points I've raised.

They're not specific to Spike, but rather addressed to the topic of leadership in general - though a comparison between Spike and Angel, Buffy, Cordelia, Dawn, Faith, Giles, Gunn, Riley, Wesley, Willow and Xander among others would no doubt arise - simply because all of these charaters have operated within the context of a group.

Fact of the matter is - those who strive to be good leaders are often seen as more heroic than people who don't lead. It's applicable outside of whether or not one likes one TV character or another. We see it in sports, in society, in corporate culture.

Good leadership can make the group worth far more than the sum of it's parts, and there is a reason "leadership skills" are among the most prized traits in any society.

I certainly don't think that Spike has to take the reins of leadership to be considered one.

And this "take the reins of leadership" - what exactly do you mean by that? Do you just see "leadership" as issuing orders.

Certainly Spike can be a hero without being a leader. People saw Spike as a hero in IOHEFY when he got out of the wheelchair, even though Spike was a gleeful mass murderer at the time.

There are degrees of heroism. And people who lead others effectively, for the benefit of the group rather than to serve self-interest, are often seen as more heroic than people who don't. For many of the reasons already enumerated in this thread.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Personal Attack -- Rose, 13:15:15 01/04/04 Sun

I'm sorry if you considered my post a personal attack, but I cannot help what I feel whenever I read any of your posts - especially in regard to Angel and Spike. Your comments regarding both vampires seemed to have an element of inequality about it. You spend a lot of time trying to prove how superior Angel is, in compare to Spike. And if you would look at both characters, ou would see that both have their qualities and flaws. Quite frankly, this is the reason why I find it hard to take some of your arguments, seriously. I'll say nothing further over the matter, but as I have stated before, I cannot help what I feel. If it makes you feel better, you don't have to take any of my posts seriously.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You tell 'em Rose! -- Martian, 01:18:43 01/05/04 Mon

Your comments regarding both vampires seemed to have an element of inequality about it... Quite frankly, this is the reason why I find it hard to take some of your arguments, seriously.

You tell 'em Rose! Nobody should present opinions if they have "elements of inequality". It's a dangerous heresy that must be stamped out.

Perhaps citizen Rose could do us all a favor of editing these offensive posts (whether pro-Spike, pro-Angel, or pro-Snyder) for "equality" so that we might be able to safely read the ideas contained within them in a value neutral way.

Quite frankly, if I caught someone trying to prove or defend an idea that I disagreed with, I wouldn't take them seriously either. Ever. Even if they posted on a separate topic. I know I don't want to think about such unpleasantness. That's not what discussion is about.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Leadership and Heroism -- Claudia, 11:08:28 01/05/04 Mon

I don't believe that Spike has to be a leader to be considered "heroic". There are other ways to be considered "heroic" (a word I dislike, since it seems to smack of idealization of others), other than being a leader. Nor do I believe that simply being a leader makes a person heroic.

I've been watching "Band of Brothers" lately. I found myself impressed by Donnie Wahlberg's character - First Sergeant Carwood Lipton - who found himself acting as de facto leader of his company (Easy Company) during the Bastogne/Foy campaign. What made Lipton impressive to me wasn't the fact that he more or less became the company's leader, but that he assumed leadership at a time when it was necessary for the company have one. The company's actual commander - a Lieutenant Norman Dike - was a joke. He was only there to gain combat experience in order to improve his military record. He really had no interest in acting as the company's leader. Easy Company already had a first-class leader in Dick Winters. Unfortunately, he was promoted to XO of 2nd Battalion, over two months before the Bastogne campaign. What I'm trying to say is that Lipton assumed leadership of Easy Company's men when they NEEDED someone to lead. It really was imparative that he took command, because their life depended upon it.

Now, I have been impressed on how Angel managed to gather Doyle, Cordelia, and later, Wes during the show's early years and give them some kind of stability in their lives . . . especially at a time when they really needed it. But Angel has done other things to impress me that did not involve him being a leader. So has Spike. As far as I'm concerned, it is not imperative for Spike, Angel or anyone else to be considered "heroic". Perhaps assuming leadership when the situation demands it, can be considered as such. But when, since his first appearance on BUFFY in October 1997, has Spike found himself in a situation that it was neccesary for him to assume leadership?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: one is the loneliest number -- skeeve, 14:16:53 12/29/03 Mon

Maybe one problem can help you with the other:
When she messes up and pretends not to, call her on it and tell her "This is why you should never be in charge."

[> [> [> [> No, -2.28 is the lonliest number. -- Gyrus, 08:20:50 12/30/03 Tue

I mean, people talk about "one" all the time. There's even a song about it in A CHORUS LINE! -2.28, on the other hand, has never rated a single line of music and hardly ever comes up in casual conversation.

Well, as -2.28 itself once said, "I am too a real number!"

[> [> [> [> [> then again -- lakrids, 05:21:46 01/02/04 Fri

must the square root of -1, be the lonlieste number, it is not even real.
And i must say that find it rather racist of you, that you only mention only real numbers!.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Don't you mean....numberist? -- angel's nibblet, 23:01:19 01/03/04 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> yes. ;) -- lakrids, 03:50:13 01/04/04 Sun

Best Character Seasons -- Nino, 12:02:54 12/24/03 Wed

As I rewatched my Buffy season 4 DVD I started thinking...Wow, Willow kicks ass in season 4! So from there I started picking my favorite seasons for each character...the season when each character displayed the most growth, development, humor, purpose,or general ass kickiness...lemme know if I missed anyone important, and of course, lemme know how much you disagree...

Buffy-season 5
Angel- Buffy season 2
Cordelia- Angel season 3
Wesley- Angel season 4
Spike-Buffy season 5
(these few, I realize, weren't in many seasons, but still)


[> Oops.. -- Nino, 12:04:14 12/24/03 Wed

Amy was in many seasons, and I forgot her counterpart, who was also spread throughout the years:

[> Re: Best Character Seasons -- Claudia, 12:10:13 12/24/03 Wed

Buffy - Seasons 5/7
Willow - Season 7
Xander - Season 3/7
Giles - Season 4
Angel - AtS Season 1
Cordelia - AtS Season 3
Wesley - AtS Seasons 2/4
Gunn - AtS Season 3
Fred - AtS Season 5
Lorne - AtS Season 4
Lilah - AtS Season 4
Spike - Seasons 5/7
Joyce - Seasons 3/5
Anya - Season 5
Tara - Season 6
Dawn - Season 5
Faith - Season 3/7 & AtS Season 4
Riley - Season 4
Oz - none applicable
Andrew - Season 7
Amy - Season 3

[> [> Re: Best Character Seasons -- Seven, 15:44:50 12/24/03 Wed

Buffy - Seasons 5
Willow - Season 4
Xander - Season 4
Giles - Season 5
Angel - AtS Season 4
Cordelia - AtS Season 2
Wesley - AtS Seasons end 3 to start of 4
Gunn - AtS Season 2
Fred - AtS Season 3
Lorne - AtS Season 2
Lilah - AtS Season 3
Spike - BTVS Season 4
Joyce - Season 3
Anya - Season 4
Tara - Season 5
Dawn - Season 5
Faith - Season 3 & AtS Season 4
Riley - Season 4
Oz - Season 4
Andrew - Season 7
Amy - Season 3

[> Re: Best Character Seasons -- KdS, 15:52:19 12/24/03 Wed


and addition


[> Re: Best Character Seasons -- cjl, 17:46:30 12/24/03 Wed

Buffy (B5) - From university attendee to head of household in the space of ten episodes. From only child to big sister in the space of ten seconds. Losing a parent is always the biggest change in a person's life, and Buffy is no exception.

Willow (B4) - Gay now. Willow redefines her sexuality and finds her mojo in this pivotal year.

Xander (B5) - Could just as easily have been Buffy Season 2, what with the X/C romance breaking the B/X/W triangle, Xander's increasing confidence in evil-busting, and THE LIE. But S5 gets the nod, if only for The Replacement, where Xander is split into the gawky adolescent we all know and love and the confident adult he is destined to become.

Giles (B2) - I was tempted to list Giles' mid-life crisis in Season 4, but the pickings are just too good two years earlier. Ethan's reappearances force Giles to confront Ripper for the first time in 20 years, and eventually, reintegrate that part of his personality.

Spike (B4) - My favorite Spike season. Marsters was amazing, switching from Big Bad to Clockwork Vampire, to suicidal mope, to enthusiastic demon killer, to Iago. The spell in Something Blue and the confrontation with Faith in Who Are You set up Spike's infatuation with Buffy in S5.

Angel (A2) - The season-long road to his Ephipany in "Epiphany" was the single most important character development in over 250 years of unliving.

Cordelia (A1) - From the painfully shallow girl in "City of..." to the painfully empathetic young woman in "To Shanshu in L.A." As one of only three regulars, we get the best (and most) of Cordelia here before the character derails in mid-A3.

Wesley (A3) - We saw a touch of darkness in Five by Five and Sanctuary (A1), but that was nothing compared to what was waiting for us in Billy and the latter part of A3. Maybe the best sustained character arc in ME history, Wes' transformation into Scruffy/Dark Wes was both shocking yet completely natural.

Gunn (A2) - Gunn rethinks his entire mission during the course of A2, discovering that vampires don't necessarily equal evil, slowly supplanting his old gang with A.I., and trading the dangers of the street for the relative comfort of the Hyperion hotel. He's traded up AGAIN in S5, but he hasn't broken with Angel and the gang. Yet.

Fred (A5) - Trust me.

Best of the rest:

Dawn (B5)
Anya (B6)
Lorne (A5)
Riley (B5)
Oz (B4)
Lilah (A4)
Joyce (B3)
Tara (B6)
Faith (B3)

[> [> I must say... -- Nino, 21:22:24 12/24/03 Wed

I love season 4 Spike too...he is fabulous, and oh-so-funny...I gotta disagree on Cordy tho...I loved her on "Buffy" but then I thought she was rather flat on
Angel" season 1, and I still don't quite understand the Cordy hate, mid-season 3...maybe ill get a better idea as I rewatch on TNT.

[> [> About Lorne! (some this season, but old ep spoilers here) -- Wolfhowl3, 22:03:59 12/24/03 Wed

How could you say that this is the best season for Lorne, when he has done almost nothing this whole time!!!!!

Yes we see alot about him Life of the Party, but the whole of the rest of this season, he is just walking on, talking on his cell phone, and walking off with no real interaction with the rest of the Fang Gang.

I'm a little disapointed, since I've always loved the Big Green there.

I would say that Season 2 is the best for Lorne, since we get to see his family's stlying dance steps! hehe


[> [> [> Lorne in A5 is similar to Xander in B5... -- cjl, 07:12:23 12/25/03 Thu

...not much going on with the character most of the way, but one huge episode marking a sea change in how we see the character. With the split-Xander, The Replacement was Joss and Jane E. telling us: "This is where he was. This is where he's going." And frankly, once the writers finished telling us that, they were pretty much done with Xander as a character. Sure, there were bumps in the road ("Hells Bells"), but S5-7 was Xander heading toward a destination clearly marked. Doesn't sound too exciting? It wasn't. (Okay, end rant.)

As much as I loved Lorne's family reunion in Season 2 and the end of his nightclub days in Seasons 3 and 4, I found the last few minutes of "Life of the Party" the most interesting development in Lorne's character in all the time we've seen him. He's always been the character who helps everybody figure out what they're feeling and what they should do about a situation--but how does HE feel about what's happening in his life? Witnessing Lorne's Hulk-sized anger over Sebassis and his motley crew of sadistic assistants tells me Joss, Bell & Co. think of Lorne as somebody with his own sense of morality, feelings and desires rather than the detached, amicable lounge lizard who simply reacts to others. This is significant progress.

OTOH...when it comes to screen time? I agree. A2 (not to mention three and four) has it all over A5.

[> [> Re: Best Character Seasons -- Pony, 21:38:22 12/30/03 Tue

Ooh I'll play, but I'm going to be all contary. And I'm including the most important thing - best season for hair.

Buffy S2: Yes, she had a greater journey in S5, and S6 let us inside her head more than any other season, but if I were to sum up Buffy I would point to the year where we saw her as the bitca, the vulnerable girl, and finally the person strong enough to stab her boyfriend in the heart and then take her overwhelming grief quietly out of town. For best hair season though S5 wins completely. The pinnacle of bounce and shine.

Willow S2: All the clues towards the kick-ass powerhouse she would become were there but what really broke my heart was the sweetness, the awkwardness and the unbending resolve that Willow dealt with all the turmoil around her. Best hair: S4 was astounding, a girl coming into her own product-wise.

Xander S3: It was a year in which he got to confront Buffy, fool around with Willow, break Cordelia's heart and sleep with Faith. All that and the coolest-guy-in-the-room staredown of The Zeppo. S3 saw Xander finally finding confidence in who he was, something that was done with the knowledge - suspected on his part, perfect hindsight on ours - that the real world was about to take him to pieces in S4. Hair: maybe it's my new DVDs but I really like the floppy-haired Xander of S5.

Giles S4: His comic timing in this season was genius. Maybe it wasn't a good year for his dignity or resolve but this season he was the funniest man in town. Best hair season: the only time I ever noticed Giles' hair was in Band Candy, but it was very fine there indeed.

Spike S6: It was amazing to watch a character stripped completely bare - no! I mean emotionally bare, geez people. The seemingly upward climb of S5 took so many dark twists and then ended up in a place we'd never imagined. Best hair: never really had a consistently strong season but I'm fondest of the end of S5/early S6 tousled experiments.

Dawn S5: The way Dawn was introduced it was like ME was defying us and Buffy to care for her. But we did. Best hair: S7 a shining well-conditioned light in the darkness.

Angel S2: Angel has good luck with second seasons. AtS S2 was amazing, but B2 was a revelation. Angelus was all menace and humour and killing grace. My only regret is that BtVS (and AtS S4 for that matter) never let him have the bloodbath that he deserved. Best hair: call me crazy but I like AtS S5's longer look.

Too lazy to do the rest!

[> [> [> You're Crazy! -- Dead (and partial to the floppy-haired) Soul, 23:01:22 12/30/03 Tue

But I like both Xander and Angel with the longer hair (ew, not flashback long!)

Best Spike hair? Crazy in the basement.

[> [> [> [> Crazy like a fox! -- Pony, 08:06:00 12/31/03 Wed

I loved crazy basement hair too, but it was cruel to show us that and then take it away after less than two episodes. I'm still holding out hopes that LA will experience a peroxide shortage in the new year.

[> [> [> Re: Best Character hair Seasons -- sdev, 00:50:19 12/31/03 Wed

You had me till here: "Best hair: call me crazy but I like AtS S5's longer look." Crazy no. I'll go with misguided. Please get out the clippers and Nancy boy gel.

Your other picks I love. Willow S2 was that a double whammy, two haircuts in a single season? She started long and ended short.

And special mention does go to Spike's Intervention Buffybot tousled look in S5. What do you call that-- vampire chic circa Greco/Roman.

I'm in a mood.

[> [> [> [> Can't believe I forgot Anya! -- Pony, 08:13:31 12/31/03 Wed

The queen of the hair changes! Again I have a controversial choice - I like the brown, short and fairly tame 'do of S4. The curly/straight short/long changes of S5 were dizzying and the less said about the blonding in S6 the better. It's a lesson for us all - just because we have nearly unlimited hair options doesn't mean we have to explore them all.

And you're the misguided one! Longish haired Angel (definitely NOT flashback Angel) was different and mysterious and his hair didn't stick straight up. I was sad to seem him get a cut.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: back to Angel -- sdev, 16:27:02 12/31/03 Wed

Ok maybe I am misguided but I liked it sticking straight up, and I realize that is a double entendre.

happy New Year!

[> [> [> OK, if we're going to dive into the shallow end of the pool.... -- cjl, 09:17:58 12/31/03 Wed

Best seasons for overall attractiveness (males, females and demons):

BUFFY (B4) - At first, I was going to go with S1 and Jailbait Buffy, because it was the last time she had measurable cleavage; but I just think SMG looked better in S4. The character (and the actress) was confident, well-dressed, and well-coiffed. Easily beats out Tragic Buffy (B5), Depresso-Buffy (S6) and Generalissima Buffy (S7), whose wardrobes and hairstyles all seemed to be in permanent mourning.

XANDER (B2) - This one's easy. NB still had his swimmer's physique. And he looked better in short hair.

WILLOW (B2) - Another easy one. In terms of wardrobe, Willow slowly drifted away from the softer side of Sears, but still retained her geeky charm (see: "Halloween"). The peak of AH's adorable-ness.

GILES (B4) - Giles' mid-life crisis broadened his wardrobe and he picked up the ultimate in cool male accessories: his guitar. (Although I will admit, his fencing scene with Wesley in S3 may have been even cooler.)

CORDELIA (B3): No contest. Cordy's dressed to kill entrance in "The Wish" was absolutely jaw-dropping.

ANGEL (A2): Tough one. I tend to think of Broody Boy as a large chunk of beef with a near-monochromatic wardrobe, and it's tough to list any particular season where he's more "attractive." (He cleaned up nice in "The Prom" and "Waiting in the Wings," but not enough to tilt my vote toward those seasons.) I'm going to go with Angel S2, because he was always more vital and expressive around women who gave him a challenge. And Darla, Dru, Kate, Lilah and the babe from "Untouched" were a challenge.

SPIKE (B2): Vampire anorexic with great cheekbones (S6), Eyeliner Boy (S2), or Reformed Stud (S7)? As usual, I'm going with the theory that the women makes the man, and vote for the Spike/Drusilla package in Season 2.

ANYA (B4): I'm with you there, PG. Although the red lingerie in OMWF almost made the hairstyle shifts tolerable.

DAWN (B7): The Pushy Queen of Slut Town. (Dawnie's hair also gets registered as a lethal weapon, exceeding 100,000 candlepower.)

WES (A3): The birth of Scruffy Wes.

[> [> [> [> It's the splashiest! -- Pony, 21:17:13 01/01/04 Thu

My 2cnd question: Re: Shanshu'ing -- drivebyeposter, 17:04:37 12/24/03 Wed

If Buffy and the Scoobies can figure out a way to so alter the course of their known universe as to activate all the potentials in the world at once, why couldn't, wouldn't and or shouldn't Angel and Spike just work together to find some way to allow both of them to Shanshu?

- dbp


[> One cannot always use the Dues Ex Machina -- Vapthorne, 17:26:46 12/24/03 Wed

Since as some of you might know, I haven't really watched Angel so I'm in the dark about Shanshu. I heard it might be a prophency that leads a souled vampire to becoming Human.

Anyway, magic is a funny thing and it works on a principles that we cannot understand. Willow was lucky enough to find the means and alter the laws for Slayerhood. Which sounds a lot more complicated than it sounds. We cannot just assume that it's possible to rewrite the metaphyisics for any/every prophecy in those ancient dusty tomes.

[> Re: My 2cnd question: Re: Shanshu'ing -- skeeve, 13:56:19 12/26/03 Fri

They already know how to become human.
The problem is that at least one has to remain a vampire to save Buffy from an appocalypse.

[> [> Re: My 2cnd question: Re: Shanshu'ing -- Felicia, 14:21:03 12/30/03 Tue

"The problem is that at least one has to remain a vampire to save Buffy from an appocalypse."

According to whom? Eve and Sirk? Since when is this law?


[> [> [> Re: My 2cnd question: Re: Shanshu'ing -- skeeve, 15:30:31 12/30/03 Tue

In IWRY according to TPTB or their oracles, Angel's becoming a human doomed Buffy.
At the time, there was no mention of the possibility of another souled vampire.

OT: Merry Christmas to all! -- drivebyeposter, 17:06:12 12/24/03 Wed


[> And to all a good night!!! -- LittleBit, 21:50:08 12/24/03 Wed

Merry Christmas!!

[> Merry Christmas, everyone! -- KdS, 03:35:07 12/25/03 Thu

Or the midwinter festival of your choice!

[> Re: OT: Happy Holidays everyone! -- aliera, 05:56:42 12/25/03 Thu

And so the Shortest Day came and the year died
And everywhere down the centuries of the snow-white world
Came people singing, dancing,
To drive the dark away.
They lighted candles in the winter trees;
They hung their homes with evergreen;
They burned beseeching fires all night long
To keep the year alive.
And when the new year's sunshine blazed awake
They shouted, revelling.
Through all the frosty ages you can hear them
Echoing behind us - listen!
All the long echoes, sing the same delight,
This Shortest Day,
As promise wakens in the sleeping land:
They carol, feast, give thanks,
And dearly love their friends,
And hope for peace.
And now so do we, here, now,
This year and every year.
Welcome Yule!

--Susan Cooper,
crossposted to Livejournal

[> Merry Christmas and happy holidays! -- Scroll, 12:17:27 12/25/03 Thu

Off to aunt's house for Christmas dinner, but I've hopefully managed to get LJ posts off to everybody who is online today. And if I missed you, sorry and I hope you have a very merry Christmas!

God bless everyone!

O/T: Sunshine, by Robin McKinley -- Susan, 07:46:35 12/25/03 Thu

Hi guys,

Long time lurker (and fan of Shadowkat's). I just wanted to recommend the new book Sunshine, by Robin McKinley, for those jonesing for a vampire fix before Angel resumes. I read the book and thought it was terrific, especially in its Beauty and the Beast parallels.

Here are some reviews:

From Publishers Weekly

Buffyesque baker Rae "Sunshine" Seddon meets Count Dracula's hunky Byronic cousin in Newbery-Award-winner McKinley's first adult-and-then-some romp through the darkling streets of a spooky post-Voodoo Wars world. Now that human cities have been decimated, the vampiric elite holds one-fifth of the world's capital, threatening to control all the earth in less than 100 years, unless human SOFs (Special Other Forces) can hold them at bay by recruiting Sunshine, daughter of legendary sorcerer Onyx Blaise. As breathlessly narrated by Sunshine herself, the Cinnamon Roll Queen of Charlie's Coffeehouse, in the inchoate idiom of Britney, J. Lo and the Spice Girls, Sunshine's coming-of-magical-age launches when she is swarmed by noiseless vampires one night and chained in a decrepit ballroom as an entrâe for mysterious, magnetic, half-starved Constantine, a powerful vampire whose mortal enemy Bo (short for Beauregard) shackled him there to perish slowly from daylight and deprivation. Most of the charm of this long venture into magic maturation derives from McKinley's keen ear and sensitive atmospherics, deft characterizations and clever juxtapositions of reality and the supernatural that might, just might, be lurking out there in "bad spots" right around a creepy urban corner or next to a deserted lake cabin. McKinley knows very well-and makes her readers believe-that "the insides of our own minds are the scariest things there are."

Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

From Booklist

Rae Seddon, nicknamed Sunshine, lives a quiet life working at her stepfather's bakery. One night, she goes out to the lake for some peace and quiet. Big mistake. She is set upon by vampires, who take her to an old mansion. They chain her to the wall and leave her with another vampire, who is also chained. But the vampire, Constantine, doesn't try to eat her. Instead, he implores her to tell him stories to keep them both sane. Realizing she will have to save herself, Sunshine calls on the long-forgotten powers her grandmother began to cultivate in her when she was a child. She transforms her pocketknife into a key and unchains herself--and Constantine. Surprised, he agrees to flee with her when she offers to protect him from the sun with magic. They escape back to town, but Constantine knows his enemies won't be far behind, which means that he and Sunshine will have to face them together. A luminous, entrancing novel with an enthralling pair of characters at its heart. Kristine Huntley

Copyright (c) American Library Association. All rights reserved


[> Thanks, Susan and Welcome! -- dub ;o), 12:18:55 12/27/03 Sat

I just bought this novel with a gift card for Chapters/Indigo that I got for Christmas. The comment from Neil Gaiman on the front cover is, "Pretty much perfect."

That's good enough for me.


[> Sunshine and Buffy (spoilers for Sunshine) -- Pony, 15:56:35 12/29/03 Mon

Glad you posted this Susan! I enjoyed Sunshine quite a bit, despite some major problems with how McKinley handled her exposition. What I really found interesting is all the connections to BtVS. I don't think it's just a marketing thing - McKinley has said that she's a fan - Sunshine may not be in the Buffyverse but it seems like it's an extrapolation of some of the series' ideas. Certain parallels struck me - the Initiative-like government agency, Rae's desire for a normal life, the fear of darkness within, the vampire as shadow self. Some elements - the doe's blood, Rae's "hold me" scene - seemed taken almost directly from episodes of the show. I've seen BtVS references in other books, and its influence can be seen in other series and movies, but I find it fascinating and very cool indeed to have an established author deal with Buffy's themes. I hope it's a sign of things to come.

[> [> Re: Sunshine and Buffy (spoilers for Sunshine) -- dmw, 16:44:44 12/30/03 Tue

I haven't read Sunshine yet, but many of the elements you mention are ones McKinley's dealt with in her earlier books like Deerskin and The Hero and the Crown though the modern teen impression of the heroine that I get from the reviews does sound like Buffy.

[> [> Re: Sunshine and Buffy (spoilers for Sunshine) -- Susan, 13:49:45 12/31/03 Wed

Thanks, Pony.

Yes, I was also struck with many of the parallels between BtVS and Sunshine, in particular the exploration of the morally grey area of demons and half-human/half-demon beings, who are, in the Sunshine-verse, "in the closet."

One weakness for me was Sunshine's use of language. I think McKinley was really trying for a Buffy-esque slang, but some of the quippier quips fell flat to my ear. Don't have the book in front of me (lended to a friend), but that was one peeve for me.

But it didn't ruin the story for me; actually, it just made me appreciate the linguistic universe of Joss and Co. all the more.

[> [> [> Re: Sunshine and Buffy (spoilers for Sunshine) -- Pony, 11:44:36 01/05/04 Mon

Oh I know! Sunshine's voice got very trying at times. As much as enjoyed the book I think it's in need of a serious re-edit. I know a lot of people who were very put off by the exposition, and the constant repetition of quips and phrases irritated me a great deal (the nickname "goddess of pain" was my personal nails on the chalkboard).

Did Willow use Lethe's Bramble more than once? -- shambleau, 14:23:17 12/27/03 Sat

I just rewatched OMWF, and it struck me that Willow had left a sprig under Tara's pillow, but in All The Way, she just did the spell and left it on the dresser. Also, in TR, she did the spell on Buffy and Tara, but didn't place any sprigs nearby. Was this a continuation of her spell on Tara or a new one?

Of course, I realize that the sprig was under Tara's pillow basically as a plot device, so she could figure out what happened. Still, Tara herself wondered how many times it might have been done to her. How much time is supposed to have passed between the events in All The way and OMWF, I wonder?


[> Believe that it was twice. -- OnM, 14:55:01 12/27/03 Sat

As I recall, the first time was when Willow cast the forgetting spell on Tara (to forget the unpleasant argument the two women had), and the second time was an attempt to use it on Buffy to help her forget the pain of being pulled out of heaven. The second time backfired because way too much of the bramble burned, and the entire gang 'forgot', not just Buffy.

I don't think the bramble had to be in close physical proximity to the one who would be made to forget-- as you said, Tara finding the bramble the morning of OMWF was largely a plot device.

[> [> Willow's purpose -- skeeve, 08:27:32 12/29/03 Mon

Willow's purpose was not to erase Buffy's memory of heaven.
It was to make Buffy and Tara not mad at her any more.
The incantation specified both Buffy and Tara.

BTW this one still suspects that Buffy's memory of heaven was a false one.

[> [> [> Check carefully, and you will see that... -- OnM, 07:20:07 12/30/03 Tue

What I said was:

*** ...the second time was an attempt to use it on Buffy to help her forget the pain of being pulled out of heaven. ***

Granted that this is a subtlety, but I believe that this is what Willow consciously intended. Now, unconsciously is quite another matter, and it is entirely possible that you are correct in that allowing Willow to feel less guilty was a handy side-effect.

As to the memory of heaven being real or not, I don't see this ever being settled except for Joss actually saying so one way or the other, but from a writer's standpoint, if Buffy wasn't really in heaven, having her pulled out of it would lose nearly all of the pathos that the story otherwise engenders. And if so, then what would be the point? If the character does not suffer a terrible loss, and heroically go on to rise above it, then does this not diminish the function of the story?

[> [> [> [> Re: Check carefully, and you will see that... -- skeeve, 12:34:00 12/30/03 Tue

I think Joss got a little careless with the Buffy in heaven premise.
The heaven described is at best a fool's paradise:
Buffy's happiness was based at least in part on knowing things that weren't true.

Buffy's heaven also reminded me of a conversation between the Doctor and a Guardian of Time.
The Guardian wanted the Doctor to volunteer for a mission.
The Doctor wanted to know what would happen to him if he didn't.
"Nothing," said the Guardian.
"You mean nothing will happen to me?" asked the Doctor.
"Nothing at all. Ever," clarified the Guardian.

[> [> [> [> the spell -- skeeve, 15:26:36 12/30/03 Tue

Willow's spell copied from Masq's site:

For Buffy and Tara, this I char,
Let Lethe's bramble do its chore.
Purge their minds of memories grim,
Of pains from recent slights and sins.

No mention of heaven.
It certainly wasn't a memory grim.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: the spell -- dmw, 16:56:32 12/30/03 Tue

I think heaven was a grim memory to Buffy because it represents such a terrible loss to her at that point in the season. It's like thinking about a close friend soon after they've died; even the formerly happy memories are painful.

[> [> [> which purpose? -- sdev, 21:36:42 01/03/04 Sat

First, I don't believe Willow got the effect she intended from the Tabula Rasa spell so it is difficult to measure her intent by the words of the spell she clearly messed up.

Second, I agree with OnM about her intention to alleviate Buffy's pain at being yanked from heaven. Buffy's pain was caused by the violence and harsh reality she encountered on her return in contrast to the serenity of heaven. Thus perhaps Willow's words were intended to "purge" Buffy's mind of those "grim" memories and thus heavenÕs appeal would dim, or maybe Willow simply messed up. I donÕt think Buffy had revealed anger that Willow would feel the need to remove via a spell. Buffy was in pain and disconnected.

In the scene in the magic shop when they are all discussing Buffy being in heaven Willow says:

I know a spell that will make her forget she was ever in heaven.

Her purpose with Tara is a different story. Tara had just expressed her anger at WillowÕs use of magic to manipulate her previously. Tara had just said the relationship was not working out. This exchange between them right before Willow does the spell suggests a different purpose perhaps with Tara. And maybe that is why the spell went awryÑ two different intended beneficiaries and two different purposes, but only one spell.

[> From "Tabula Rasa" -- Rufus, 19:03:45 12/27/03 Sat

First time was in OMWF but to show just how little Willow had learned from the warning Tara gave her she went for the big spell in Tabula Rasa....from the shooting script...

Now, in a LOCK DOWN SHOT, we ANGLE up the stairs at WILLOW at the top. She waits a moment to make sure they're gone. Then she heads towards her bedroom, out of our sight... and IMMEDIATELY REAPPEARS. SHE IS FULLY DRESSED, HAIR DRY, MADE-UP AND READY. (It's like magic!!) She heads down the stairs and enters the living room.


Where she glances at AN OLD PHOTO OF BUFFY looking happy.

Willow reaches the bookshelf and pulls back a few books. There, secreted behind the volumes, is a ziplock bag containing dried LETHE'S BRAMBLE. She pulls it out, replaces the books.

She kneels by the fireplace and pulls out four sprigs of the dried weed. She ignites them with a fireplace match and tosses them into the fireplace.

They smolder, producing a dense, foul smoke. She watches for a second, then tosses in a fifth weed for good measure.

'For Buffy and Tara this I char, let
Lethe's Bramble do its chore. Purge
their minds of memories grim, of
pains from recent slights and sins...
She takes A PURE WHITE CRYSTAL from the breast pocket of her shirt and touches it to the burning herbs. It immediately turns a pale gray.

[> [> Grim memories for Buffy... (spoils season five) -- Briar Rose, 22:24:50 01/02/04 Fri

I thought it was more about removing Buffy's memeories of having to dig her way out of the grave and the PTSS she was going through for the first three eps after she had to do so.

Heaven wouldn't be a "grim memory" unless it was compared to the reality she was thrust back into by Willow's spell to resurrect her.

The "slight" and the "sin" in Bufy's case may refer to Willow's use of magick to undo Buffy's death. Also the fact that Willow never considered the complications of her actions if they DID work and take the time to open the grave before casting that re-animation spell.

[> [> [> Re: Grim memories for Buffy... (spoils season five) -- Rufus, 18:53:32 01/05/04 Mon

Willow had used LETHE'S BRAMBLE to make Tara forget about her arguement with Willow over magic. She said "forget" and placed it under their pillows. In OMWF, Tara found the dried Lethe's Bramble under the pillow and kept it. Dawn told Tara she was glad they made up and Tara ended up looking the Bramble up finding it was a component of a forgetting spell. In effect, Willow had played with Tara's mind, a sore spot with Tara considering what Glory had done to her in s5. She made a deal with Willow not to do magic for a week and not only did Willow do magic she did the same type of mind altering magic that upset Tara so.

Faith in "Judgement" -- Nino, 16:17:14 12/27/03 Sat

I just watched the season 2 opener of "Angel" on my new DVD and was shocked to find a closing scene with Faith in jail...I don't know how I forgot her appearance (i've always felt that I missed a lot in season 2 because it was overshadowed by Buffy season 5).

So was Faith in any other episodes before season 4, or was "Judgement" the last we saw of her?


[> Nothing until S4 -- KdS, 03:55:52 12/28/03 Sun

Merry "Buffy" season 5 and "Firefly: The Complete Series" watching! -- Nino, 09:04:38 12/25/03 Thu

...or am i the only one that waited till Christmas for them?


[> Re: Merry "Buffy" season 5 and "Firefly: The Complete Series" watching! -- Rob, 12:05:40 12/25/03 Thu

Heehee! I'm up to "Crush" and plowing merrily untll the sad stuff coming up soon. ;o)


[> [> Trash -- DickBD, 12:47:14 12/25/03 Thu

I couldn't resist watching the unaired episodes first, starting with Trash. I have seen them all now, and they simply reinforce in my mind the foolishness of Fox's decision to axe the show.

While I particularly enjoyed Trash, every single one of the unseen episodes is typically Whedonesque. And yet, Joss accepts fantasy as fantasy and claims to be nearly scientifically illiterate. But he alone does without sound in outer space, as it should be scientifically. And he makes it effective artistically. And they said it couldn't be done!

[> [> [> Re: Trash -- J, 15:41:18 12/26/03 Fri

I strongly recommend that folks listen to Joss' commentary on the Firefly ep "Objects in Space." It's absolutely fantastic.

[> [> Re: Merry "Buffy" season 5 and "Firefly: The Complete Series" watching! -- shambleau, 14:29:20 12/27/03 Sat

I'm goiing through both AtS2 and S5 BtVS AND Firefly!

I'd say the sad stuff on Buffy actually started with Into The Woods, kicked up with Blood Ties and turned into S6 at the end of IWMTLY. I'd forgotten how grim S5 turned out to be.

[> Woke up to "Firefly" under my Christmas tree. -- AurraSing, 15:02:54 12/25/03 Thu

Plus the season 2 set of Alias. Guess Santa got my bribe in time.


But seriously folks,this was the kind of gift that gives me so much pleasure-no commercials,clear picture and the sound is great through my home theater system. Plus the storytelling is finally linear,whoo-hoo!

[> [> me, too! (hmm, was there a sale?) -- Sheri, 11:37:06 12/26/03 Fri

[> [> Nathan Fillion on Space -- Rufus, 17:16:01 12/28/03 Sun

I loved watching the series (Firefly) in the order it was supposed to run in. Just as the story arc got going it was cancelled. Needless to say I think Fox missed out on something great.

Now to Fillion, on Space they had the Buffy Marathon and there were small interviews with the actors and Joss. Nathan Fillion was accepting a Saturn (?) and said how much he liked playing Caleb because the character didn't think of himself as evil as much as he just thought he was so right about teaming up with the First.

[> Almost the same -- mamcu, 12:57:56 12/26/03 Fri

Already got Firefly (preordered, couldn't wait!), but my sister got me Buffy S5. So we'll be doing the same things this week, I think!

[> [> Watch it with Angel year 2 -- Ray, 13:39:20 12/26/03 Fri

I held on to my copy since September so I could watch them together just like when they first aired. It's especially rewarding to see Fool for Love and Darla together.

[> Re: Merry "Buffy" season 5 and "Firefly: The Complete Series" watching! -- Dichotomy, 17:22:26 12/26/03 Fri

I finally got Buffy S1, S4 and S5! My family finally took me seriously when I said I wanted Buffy DVDs for Christmas, and I'm oh, so pleased. I already have S2, so now I just need S3 and then I can start on Angel. Yippee!

Article on the study of popular culture in academia - from today's Phila. Inq. -- OnM, 09:51:56 12/28/03 Sun

Has a brief Buffy mention within. I also had to smile to myself when one contributor mentioned that many of the 'classical' works of today were the 'popular' work of their own time.

Gee, now why didn't I ever think of that?

( Oh, yeah, that's right... I said that like umpteen years ago. Good for me! ;-)


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