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"Once More With Feeling" in top twenty best musicals! -- KdS, 12:25:35 12/28/03 Sun

According to a poll of viewers of the UK TV channel Channel 4.

Top Twenty was

20 The Phantom of the Opera
19 Bugsy Malone
18 Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat
17 Cabaret
16 Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
15 Les Miserables
14 The Lion King (film version)
13 Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling
12 My Fair Lady
11 Chitty Chitty Bang Bang
10 Moulin Rouge
9 Oliver
8 Chicago
7 The Rocky Horror Show
6 Singing in the Rain
5 Mary Poppins
4 West Side Story
3 The Wizard of Oz
2 The Sound of Music
1 Grease

Full details here

Rob and Rochefort may be interested to know that Little Shop was at 21.


[> And No. 40 in the top Sexiest Moments at the same site is -- Arethusa, 13:49:42 12/28/03 Sun

Buffy and Spike.

"Whedon struck gold when he turned his flawed movie Buffy The Vampire Slayer into a global hit TV show. Sarah Michelle Gellar kicked vampire butt at night whilst being a regular high school teen during the day. Buffy really got kinky in its sixth series when she had rampant sex with Spike, her immortal enemy."

[> Crackin' my musical knuckles... -- Rob, 14:26:30 12/28/03 Sun

Yay for OMWF and Moulin Rouge getting high honors, (and kudos for them recognizing "Muppets Take Manhattan") but what is up with the rest of this list?!?

Where's "Pippin"? Where's "Bat Boy"? Where's "Company"? Where's "Fiddler on the Roof"? Where's "Evita"? Where's "Sunday in the Park With George"? Where's "Rent"? Where's "Urinetown the Musical"? Where's "1776"? Why is the awful "Chorus Line" movie on the list instead of the vastly superior play? What is "Bugsy Malone" doing there? Why is "Phantom of the Opera" on the list--why, oh why? Same goes for "Cats." Why is "8 Mile" there? Why in the name of unholy hell is "Grease" the #1 musical of all time?!? And why does the list have the "real" musicals, where the characters break into song to express their emotions, along with the movies where every time singing occurs, there's an exterior reason in the plot for why it's happening? They really are two different types of films all together. "Cabaret" for example on stage is a true musical. There are numbers set in the cabaret itself and also ones where characters sing to express their feelings in otherwise realistic settings. The movie, however, is not a musical. Every song that does not occur in the cabaret but one is excised from the film, and that one song, "Tomorrow Belongs to Me," is sung by a group of Nazis at a restaurant as a sort of anthem, similar to the 'song duel' in "Casablanca," except only the Nazis are singing. There is an easily explainable plot reason for why this is happening. Musicals and films with music are two very different things. And if they're counting both real musicals and films with music, where is "The Rose," one of the greatest rock films of all time? "This is Spinal Tap" should count too.

And of course the list is unevenly stacked towards films, since more people have seen them than stage plays, even though there are a great number of great stage plays that either were not put on film or didn't translate well to film. Also, "Sweeney Todd" and "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" are far too low on the list.

And that's all my musical lovin' heart has to say for now.


[> [> I have similar sentiments. -- CW, 14:37:03 12/28/03 Sun

What is Chitty Chitty Bang Bang doing in the top 20? It's obviously more an "I've seen it" list than a "best of" list.

[> [> [> And also.... -- angel's nibblet, 14:49:55 12/28/03 Sun

since when is 8 mile a musical!!!!!!

*loses faith in humanity*

good on them for having Buffy in there though! Sound of Music should have been number one, not silly Grease *mumble grumble grinding of teeth*

[> [> [> [> Please add Into the Woods, Little Shop of Horrors, and THE GREATEST MUSICAL EVER...BAT BOY! -- Rochefort, 21:45:47 12/28/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> and what about "hair"? -- anom, 22:19:53 12/28/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> How could I have forgotten "Into the Woods"?!? That was the first show I ever saw on Broadway! -- Rob, 12:51:21 12/29/03 Mon

Even though I'm only 22, the show makes me feel old, though, because it is the first Broadway musical for which I was old enough to see the original Broadway cast (with Bernadette Peters, in 1987) and the recent Broadway revival (with Vanessa Williams)!


[> [> Amen! -- Cheryl, 14:53:34 12/28/03 Sun

Interesting list, but I agree with Rob (although I'm not familiar with everything you listed). Fiddler is one of my all-time favorites - play or movie. And Spinal Tap was so original. Grease is good but hard to believe it would rate #1 of all time.

[> [> Well it is voted for by the public! -- Rahael, 15:34:57 12/28/03 Sun

I've sat through too many top one hundreds voted for by the public to have expected anything else. And anyway, that's why OMWF came so high, despite so few of the general British public ever having seen it. Fan bases came out to vote, and I guess Grease has a fan base.

My question was, where was American in Paris?

I started watching around No30, and am disbelieving that it could have come lower than that.

On the other hand, I finally understood why Jeff Conaway, Zack in Babylon 5 was so familiar.

Also, the very dim comments from random celebs were very very funny.

Especially Marti Pellow. He was very entertaining. So very earnest. So perturbed!

[> [> Interesting... -- matching mole, 13:38:34 12/29/03 Mon

I'm not a big fan of these kind of polls because they generally aren't very informative except possibly from a sociological perspective (i.e. they tell you more about the people voting than the works being voted upon). I know nothing much about musicals but it did seem kind of odd to me that almost all them in the top twenty post-dated the peak era of movie musicals.

I did scan quickly through the 100 best films list and that was very interesting. Happy to see quite a few British and other non-U.S. features throughout including several I'd never heard of (which was a pleasant bonus of looking at the list). I'd forgotten about 'Secrets and Lies' which I would definitely rank as a top ten candidate for 'most moving film ever'.

The top of the list is mostly less interesting because of being more predictable (as is generally the case). I was surprised and delighted to see The Shawshank Redemption at number three. It is one of the best major Hollywood pictures of the last decade - a film that captured what I love about older films and transported it effortlesly into a modern movie. Personally I wouldn't rate it as number 3 but I certainly would rate it higher than Star Wars.

[> Re: "Once More With Feeling" in top twenty best musicals! -- skpe, 08:26:57 12/29/03 Mon

I agree they have the types scrambled and also noticeable missing 'Music Man',Man of LaMancha',A funny thing happened on the way to the forum' to name a few. At least they didn't scramble in classical opera. I wonder where 'Turendot' or 'The magic flute' would have been on that list

[> American in Paris?!? is beat out by Chitty-chitty???!! -- mamcu, 09:56:33 12/29/03 Mon

[> Feeling Once More that Thats Entertainment! -- fresne, 10:24:33 12/30/03 Tue

Hmmm ... yes, some interesting additions, omissions, etc.

I was a little surprised that Top Hat made neither the top 20, nor the top 50, but perhaps that's the Astaireophile in me. Or perhaps not. We watched it last night in preparation for the New Year Top Hat ball and ah, yes, provoking dancing.

Plus, in a popular vote kind of way, I don't really expect to see much Busby Berkeley, although a little Goldiggers north of 50 would be nice.

An interesting range of Disney movies, although did I miss it or was Fantasia not included? Although, if we go that way, I want "Kill the Wabbit in Bugs Bunny Wagnerian dizzy.

Given that I'm wearing my Jack hair sticks today, it was good to see Nightmare on the list. Plus, you know, hey, goof for Buffy!

Oh, and my contribution for an oddball loved it, Love's Labors Lost. Shakespeare as a musical and one of the most incredible segues from monolog into dance routine ever. Heaven.

Otherwise, I'm much more likely to want to create my own movie based off of my favorite dance routines from various movies. You know ...

The dance number at the end of Rommy and Michelle's High School Reunion (it's just so ridiculous) segueing into "Singing in the Rain." Danny Kaye Court Jestering a run on into Animaniacs singing, oh, "Here Comes Attila", which becomes that scene from Batman Beyond/Batman: The musical.

Old Bruce Wayne says, "You hate me don't you?" and then Billy Elliot slams through his season shifting angry. Color dissolves into Sky's the Limit. Astaire's "One More for the Road" angry glass shattering dance. Maybe Buffy and Co "Walk Through the Fire." Maybe the girl from Legend is seduced by a dress. Maybe Papa and Grandma show the kids how Simply Ballroom is done. And Eleanor Powell and Fred Astaire just smile and ice cream soft and crackle tap across the "Begin the Beguine" stars.

But, you know, this is all apt to change according to my mood.

[> [> Hmm...and an entertaining dropped tag too -- fresne, 10:27:06 12/30/03 Tue

[> Re: "Once More With Feeling" in top twenty best musicals! -- O'Cailleagh, 04:32:45 01/01/04 Thu

I can't believe I sat through that entire show-both parts-only to miss OMWF. Why did I choose that moment to walk that stupid dog? Why?

BTW anom, Hair was featured...somewhere in the mid-50s I think. Far too low for such a great show.


Traits of the First Slayer -- Claudia, 08:13:24 12/29/03 Mon

In the BtVS Season 4 episode, "Primeval", the Scoobies use a Summerian spell to take each attribute of the First Slayer and combine it within Buffy's body to defeat the human-demon-cyborg hybrid, Adam, created by Maggie Walsh.

Xander represented the Heart; Willow, the Spirit; Giles, the Mind; and Buffy, the Hand. All of the attributes combined were strong enough to kill Adam. And many of the show's fans saw this spell as a metaphor of how each Scooby is essential to Buffy being a successful Slayer.

In a way, I agree with this theory. And yet, in a way, I don't. I cannot help but wonder if the First Slayer (created by the Shadowmen) had possessed all of these attributes, why didn't all of them pass on to her successors - including Buffy, Kendra, Faith, Nikki Wood, the Chinese Slayer, Kennedy, Rona and the other former Potentials? Why did Buffy require a Summerian spell to bring forth all of these attributes to defeat Adam? As a Slayer, shouldn't she have already possessed all four attributes? Or did her training by Watchers Merrick and Giles contributed to the repression of at least three of them - namely the Heart, the Spirit and the Hand?

I have two last questions. If Buffy and the other Slayers do possess all four attributes, shouldn't they all learn to utilize them, instead of depending upon friends to serve as representatives of the Heart, Spirit and the Mind?


[> Potential -- Ann, 08:52:25 12/29/03 Mon

I think it has to do with Potential. Each slayer has her own strengths that she gets/chooses to use. One of Buffy's was to make use of her friends. I thought that this was considered by the watchers, a very unorthodox methed that she used. I am not sure that each slayer has the power of the four strengths that the first slayer had. Kendra, for example, seemed to find strength in tradition and the ways of the "handbook". Faith found strength in her more primal (if you will) powers. I think each slayer has to find this for herself - her potential.

[> Re: Traits of the First Slayer -- skeeve, 14:06:19 12/29/03 Mon

It's been a while since I saw the episode, but my recollection is that the traits weren't selected bcause they were traits of the first Slayer.
They were selected because they were traits needed to get the job done, i.e., cast the spell to let Buffy take Adam's power source.

Had Willow read a little farther ahead in her grimoire, she could have used the teleportation spell she used on Glory.

BTW Adam was unrealistic even in the Buffyverse.
Adam was made of matter.
If you hit him hard enough he would break.
No magic needed.

[> [> Traits of the First... Adam -- Vapthorne, 22:37:39 12/29/03 Mon

I agree with you on Adam. However, I won't go as far as say he's unrealistic-- it's just that he's not as invincible as he claimed to be. I believe the Inititve had the ability to bring Adam down, if Joss were have a better military understanding. The Initive's CO had the most logical approach. Surround him and concrete firepower.

Except instead of using those electric-phasers, arm the marines with good old-fashion machine guns and grenade launcher. Go for the head and limbs knock them off. Dispite what Jonathon briefed in Superstar, taking off the head might not completely disable Adam. However, the eyes, brain function, and a good bulk of system hacking hardware are located in the head, and decapitation will severely hinder Adam's ability to fight. Unless there's some back-up power unit in skull to keep head functional.

Since Buffy didn't have that kind of firepower, magic is the best source.


[> [> [> Re: Traits of the First... Adam -- skeeve, 07:54:44 12/30/03 Tue

Pistols were certainly available.
They could probably get or make a flame-thrower.

Willow and Buffy could have thrown things, preferably sharp things, at Adam, Buffy physically, Willow magically.

[> [> [> [> The First Slayer's Traits -- Felicia, 14:13:21 12/30/03 Tue

I think that the First Slayer's four traits were the same powers given to her by the Shadowmen, along with extra strength, speed and healing abilities. And I think that all of these powers were passed on to each succeeding Slayer. However, I think that the Slayers that followed the First, never really learned how to use all of the four traits - heart, miind, spirit and hands. I think they were encouraged by the Shadowmen, and later the Watchers to utilize the hands only, along with powers like strength, healing abilities and speed. I think this was the Shadowmen and succeeding Watchers' way of maintaining control over each Slayer that followed the first one.

[> [> [> [> [> I don't think those were Slayer powers being used at all -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:42:48 12/30/03 Tue

Buffy already had strength, Willow gave Buffy spiritual/magic power, Giles gave her intelligence and/or wisdom, and Xander gave her the nebulous "heart". Every ability she displayed was contained within the Scoobies, not the First Slayer. Granted, Buffy's strength and magic seemed to be far greater than the current powers of Willow and Buffy, but there are two possible explanations for that: first, that it's a case of "the result being greater than the sum of its parts"; or, second, it could be that, when Xander gave Buffy his heart, this served to enhance the other power aspects put into Buffy (supernatural strength and magical power seem to be tied to emotions in the Buffyverse). Why did the First Slayer (or the Slayer essence taking its form) get pissed, then? Because it is part of Buffy, supplying her with enhanced strength, and noticed the intrusion of other powers/essences into Buffy. The First Slayer wasn't angry that its power was called upon; it was angry about foreign powers temporarily being added to its own (hence why it tried to attack Buffy's friends; they were the intruders that set it off).

[> Not the Slayer's Traits, Theirs -- Sofdog, 07:21:55 12/30/03 Tue

The spell called on all the Slayers that had ever lived to allow their intrusion into Buffy. The spell said "last to ancient first." That would be Faith to the First Slayer (which I always suspected must have left Faith a bit weak for a few minutes).

The spell doesn't combine Slayer powers. It asks for permission to bring their representative talents into the Slayer ("we invoke thee. Grant us thy domain of primal strength. Accept us and the powers we possess."). It isn't about the Slayer's talents. It's about theirs. Which was the whole reason they chose this spell. Giles spoke the language (Sumerian), Willow had the magical talent and Xander was available to fill the fourth position as "heart." I also thought that the spell drew the strength of other Slayers in order to make Buffy physically strong enough to fight Adam. In their past confrontations he hardly wielded his gun against her. He mostly just beat her like a ragdoll.

The Spell:
The power of the slayer and all who wield it, last to ancient first we invoke thee. Grant us thy domain of primal strength, accept us and the powers we possess. Because mind and heart and spirit join, let the hand encompass us, do thy will.

Willow: Spiritus... spirit

Xander: Animus... heart

Giles: Sophus... mind

Willow: And Manus... the hand. We enjoin that we may inhabit the vessel. The hand, daughter of Sineya, first of the ones. We implore thee. Admit us. Bring us to the vessel.

The spirits of Willow, Xander, and Giles join Buffy's in her body to perform the paralyzing spell and defeat Adam.

sha me-en-dan. Gesh-toog me-en-dan. Zee me-en-den.
Oo-khush-ta me-ool-lee-a ba-ab-tum-mu-do-en.

Translation: We are heart. We are mind. We are spirit. From the raging storm, we bring the power of the Primeval One.

Im-a sheng-ab.
Translation: Boil the air.

She turns the rocket into doves:

Translation: Change.

[> [> Re: Not the Slayer's Traits, Theirs -- Felicia, 14:18:54 12/30/03 Tue

I disagree. I think that all Slayers had the abilities of heart, mind, hands and spirit. And I think they were only encouraged to depend upon the Hands. Nor do I think it was about the combined talents of "other Slayers". I think it was about the combined talents of the First Slayer. Why else would she react by appearing in the Scoobies' dreams in "Restless"?

I also suspect that many do not like the idea that Buffy really didn't need the other Scoobies to utilize all traits of the First Slayers. They would probably see this as a reason for her not needing their help, in the first place. It would break up the group dynamics.

I don't think that Buffy needed the other Scoobies to represent as her Heart, Mind and Spirit. She had the ability to do this, all on her own. But that doesn't mean that she would have to deny other kinds of help from her friends. There is a time when one needs to depend on others. And there is a time to depend upon oneself.

[> [> [> What Finn said... -- Sofdog, 16:54:03 12/30/03 Tue

...since we are in perfect accord in our read of that scenario.

The First Slayer was angry that Buffy was not fighting alone. She says so plainly to Buffy after having attacked everyone else in their sleep. As the very first of the line, the First was forced to work in isolation by the Shadow Men who created her. The other deceased Slayers would have learned the value of teamwork if only from their Watchers over the ensuing eons.

I can't see how one can read other than what is implicitly stated in the teleplay. Of course Buffy needed the others' talents. That was the whole point of their discussion at Giles' condo. Buffy was not capable of taking Adam down on her own. (She could have lobbed grenades, but then we wouldn't have had the cool Matrix kicks and all.)

[> [> [> [> Re: What Finn said... -- Rose, 13:17:27 01/04/04 Sun

"The First Slayer was angry that Buffy was not fighting alone. She says so plainly to Buffy after having attacked everyone else in their sleep. As the very first of the line, the First was forced to work in isolation by the Shadow Men who created her. The other deceased Slayers would have learned the value of teamwork if only from their Watchers over the ensuing eons. "

You mean to say that the First Slayer appeared in the Scoobies' dreams in "Restless" simply because she was angry that Buffy wasn't following the rule of slayerage by not fighting alone? I'm sorry but I find this argument hard to believe.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: What Finn said... -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:03:03 01/05/04 Mon

Buffy had been fighting with her friends for quite some time; that alone wasn't what set the First Slayer off. What made it haunt their dreams was the fact that its power was forced to merge with Xander, Willow, and Giles. Usually the "not fighting alone" thing happens just with Buffy and the gang in the normal Buffyverse, so objection to it comes from more normal sources (ie, Watchers). The spell in "Primeval", however, was Buffy fighting with her friends on a very metaphysical level, so a metaphysical objection had to arise.

[> [> [> [> [> [> OT: Hey Finn -- Celebaelin, 21:36:56 01/05/04 Mon

Watch where you're putting your feet! When you crossed the Irish Sea a while back you trod on the southern bit of the Isle of Mann and made it into two islands rather than one. They're still talking about it (although they don't quite spell your name right, they seem to think you're called Finn Mac Coill).

I hadn't heard that bit before as you may realise.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What Finn said... -- Claudia, 11:05:56 01/06/04 Tue

"Buffy had been fighting with her friends for quite some time; that alone wasn't what set the First Slayer off. What made it haunt their dreams was the fact that its power was forced to merge with Xander, Willow, and Giles."

Why couldn't Buffy utilize all of the power of the Slayer alone? It's not as if she's incapable of doing it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What Finn said... -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:21:11 01/06/04 Tue

Because the powers she used in "Primeval" weren't exclusively Slayer powers. It wasn't that with her friends she was able to unlock hidden powers; their addition briefly added powers to her. As I said in my other post, Buffy gained the wisdom of Giles, the magical powers of Willow, and the "heart" of Xander, while also retaining her own physical strength. Granted, the strength and magic seemed more powerful than they did before the spell, but that's probably either a "greater than the sum of its parts thing", or Xander's heart portion of the spell amped up the other powers (mystical abilities seeming to be tied to emotions, after all).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ditto, Again -- Sofdog, 13:32:45 01/06/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> power *and* powers -- anom, 21:49:33 01/06/04 Tue

I thought the spell endowed Buffy w/both the powers of the other Scoobies ("combo-Buffy") and the combined power of all the Slayers who'd ever lived. As Sofdog quoted (emphasis added):

"The power of the slayer and all who wield it, last to ancient first we invoke thee. Grant us thy domain of primal strength, accept us and the powers we possess. Because mind and heart and spirit join, let the hand encompass us, do thy will."

There are 2 parts to the spell, or 2 requests in it: the primal strength of all the Slayers and the powers of mind, heart, & spirit. Buffy certainly seemed to be wielding more physical strength than she usually did--more, in my opinion, than could be accounted for by an infusion of "heart." And she seemed far more tranquil in the fight w/Adam than she did on occasions when her fighting was fueled by emotion. So I don't think it's one or the other.

And BTW, Sofdog--I also wondered if Faith had a momentary loss of strength while the spell was in effect! Even posted about it, but I don't remember enough of what I said to search for it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Transcripts from "Primeval" and "Restless" -- Claudia, 12:29:35 01/07/04 Wed

Here are two selections from the "Primeval" and "Restless" about the "enjoining spell" they used in the first episode:

From "PRIMEVAL" (Episode 4.21):

Giles: Perhaps a paralyzing spell.

He walks over to the bookshelf and pulls a book off.

Giles: Only I can't perform the incantation for this.

Willow: Right. Don't you have to speak it in Sumerian or something?

Giles: I do speak Sumerian. It's not that. Only experienced
witch can incant it, and you'd have to be within striking distance of this object.

Xander: See what you get for takin' French instead of Sumerian?

Buffy: What was I thinking?

Xander: So no problem, all we need is combo Buffy--her with Slayer strength, Giles' multi-lingual know how, and Willow's witchy power.

Giles looks at him.

Xander: Yeah, don't tell me. I'm just full of helpful suggestions.

Giles: As a matter of fact, you are.

(In the following episode, the Scoobies discover the truth about the spell)

From "RESTLESS" (Episode 4.22):

(Cut to the real Buffy waking up on the sofa. The cut on her forehead is back. She looks around.)

(Shot of all four of them. Giles, Willow and Xander awake at the same instant. They all sit up and look at each other.)

(Fade to the four of them sitting around the kitchen table.)

WILLOW: The First Slayer. Wow.

XANDER: Not big with the socialization.

WILLOW: Or the floss.

GILES: Somehow our joining with ... Buffy and ... invoking the essence of the, the Slayer's power was an affront to the source of that power.

BUFFY: You know, you could have brought that up to us *before* we did it.

GILES: I did. I said there could be dire consequences.

BUFFY: Yes, but you say that about chewing too fast."

Apparently, the Scoobies were invoking the essence of the Slayer's powers. Note, Giles referred to "the Slayer's powers" and not "the First Slayer's powers". Does that mean Buffy, when she became the Slayer, should have possessed all powers - including heart, spirit, mind and hand?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: power *and* powers -- LittleBit, 15:56:11 01/07/04 Wed

Perhaps taking a look at the spell that was used will help to clarify:

Excerpts from "Primeval"

Cut to 314. Willow, Xander, and Giles are sitting in a circle on the floor. Giles has just finished lighting four candles in the corners of their circle. Camera's POV inside their circle spinning slowly.
Willow: The power of the Slayer and all who wield it. Last to Ancient First. We invoke thee. Grant us thy domain of primal strength. Accept us and the powers we possess.
Overhead shot. Camera is slowly rotating above them. Willow is reading from an open book in her lap and we can see the gourd in the center of their circle.
Willow: Link us mind and heart with spirit joined. Let the hand encompass us. Do thy will.

Cut to 314. Willow has a stack of tarot cards beside her and takes the first one on top.
Willow: Spiritus . . . spirit.
She sets the card down on the floor in front of her, then picks up the next card, handing it to Xander.
Xander: Animus . . . heart.
He sets the card down in front of him. Willow hands the next one to Giles.
Giles: Sophus . . . mind.
He sets his card down in front of him. Willow picks up a fourth card.
Willow: And Manus
Willow: (VO) . . . the hand.

314. Camera's POV inside the circle is starting to spin faster.
Willow: We enjoin that we may inhabit the vessel. The hand, daughter of Sineya, first of the Ones.

314. Camera's POV from inside the circle, spinning faster.
Willow: We implore thee. Admit us. Bring us to the vessel. Take us. . now!
Overhead shot as Willow, Xander, and Giles are hit by the spell and throw their heads back, looking up at the ceiling. From this angle, the camera moves in fast-forward speed, darting across the lab, through the secret door, and down the corridor into the control room where it finds Buffy hiding behind the control panel. She arches back as the power hits her.

From the words of the spell it is clear that Willow is asking that the powers/skills possessed by Giles, Xander and herself be joined with the primal strength of the Slayer. This doesn't say that the Slayer does not or cannot embody those traits to some degree, but that they were enhancing them by adding their own.

In my own opinion, I don't think the Slayer, even as embodied as Buffy, possesses all four qualities in full. She certainly has the strength. But while Buffy does indeed have a strong intuition, and can often cut to the heart of a problem, it is Giles' knowledge that gives her the information she often needs before that happens. I think it is clear that Buffy doesn't come close to having Willow's innate ability to work magic. And while it is arguable that she possesses heart as strong as Xander's, to augment that against a foe is simply prudent. Further, I wouldn't want Buffy to possess all this. If she were Slayer strong and Giles knowledgeable and Willow-level witch and Buffy+Xander heart, she'd come close to being a full-fledged Mary Sue, and there would be precious little story for us to care about. "Yeah, yeah, the Super-Slayer triumphed again. [Yawn]."

Just my opinion, as always.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And lets look at the following episodes...(spoilers up to s7) -- RadiusRS, 23:33:47 01/07/04 Wed

Within Restless, there is a reference to Dawn in the form of Tara-as-Spirit-Guide/Voice-of-the-First-Slayer. The very next episode (Buffy vs. Dracula) we meet Dawn for the first time, a character that recalls the role of Slayer as Protector. Within the same episode, we get the setup for the source of Buffy's power, the darkness that is explained in "Get It Done", and to which Spike, Dracula, even Angel, and arguably Riley are attracted. Or rather, the mixture of Darkness and Light within Buffy. I think part of the purpose of Restless was to set up the Meta-Arc for the latter part of the series' run, or how Buffy manages to transcend her role as Slayer while staying true to it. The line "You think you know who you are, what's to haven't even started." is said by Tara-as-Spirit-Guide/Voice-of-the-First-Slayer and Dracula in two succeding episodes, thereby creating a launching point for the themes and stories of the next few seasons that was unlike the first four seasons. Is it any wonder the Spirit Guide in I Was Made to Love You (a title which could also apply to both Dawn and Buffy in the context of the season) takes the form of the First Slayer to deliver its message that "Death is Your Gift"? Not only to take life, but to give life too (i.e. Dawn, and Buffy's message to Dawn on the Tower). The girl/woman part is reiterated in s7 with the Magic Women who made the Scythe, who were completely unrelated to the Origin of the Slayer line, but were instead related to the Femininity in all Slayers.

How does this apply to the Spell and the First Slayer? Well, we find out in Get It Done that she (and the Slayer Line) was created by a sort of rape on the part of the Shadowmen, later Watchers, that they put Darkness into a human woman so they could control her as a weapon, thereby, limiting her function to Hand. The first Slayer (and really, all Slayers) was alone, apart from the rest of humanity because of her supernatural nature, and didn't even have the benefit of a name. This quality defined her, and to a point all Slayers, which is something Spike suggests (not directly or obviously) in Fool for Love as the reason Slayers have a deathwish. That Buffy transcends this, first in Restless and then in Chosen, is what makes her unlike any Slayer before, that her desire to be a Slayer and a girl at the same time is strong enough to keep her going and to change her nature and the nature of the world and other girls like her. The being a girl part includes her friends, for without them she never would have defeated Adam, Glory, come back from the dead and therefore be in a position to Activate all the Potentials. I think that the First Slayer was pissed not only because by combining their essences, the Scoobies effectively raped her the way the Shadowmen had, they also showed her that the way that it had been all along was not the only way, something the First Slayer never had a snowball's chance in Hell of realizing or overcoming (or the rest of the Slayers either due to the influence of the Watchers). Buffy used both her Slayerness and her girlyness to be the Killer, the Protector, the General, the Sister/Mother, the Lover, the Child/Daughter, the Hero, and the Human in one package, where other Slayers could only be a few of those things. That's why she says to the First Slayer "You're not the source of me" and is the key to her victory in Restless. The First Slayer was the mold, and Buffy was made to break the mold.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The First Slayer -- Claudia, 11:19:53 01/08/04 Thu

"The first Slayer (and really, all Slayers) was alone, apart from the rest of humanity because of her supernatural nature, and didn't even have the benefit of a name."

That's because no one knew her name. The First Slayer was a girl . . . an ordinary girl who was selected by the Shadowmen to begin the Slayer line. They knocked her up with demonic power, just as they tried to add more power to Buffy.

I'm getting this funny feeling that no one really likes the idea that Buffy had the ability to utilize heart, spirit, mind and hands all on her own . . . without the help of the Scoobies. Is it really that essential that Buffy has Xander, Willow and Giles by her side?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: power *and* powers -- Claudia, 11:12:14 01/08/04 Thu

"From the words of the spell it is clear that Willow is asking that the powers/skills possessed by Giles, Xander and herself be joined with the primal strength of the Slayer. This doesn't say that the Slayer does not or cannot embody those traits to some degree, but that they were enhancing them by adding their own."

But in the next episode, "Restless", Giles clearly stated that they had used the enjoining spell to utilize the powers of the Slayer. Something that the Scoobies had no idea about, until Giles told them.

Kennedy commercial! -- Nino, 15:03:50 12/29/03 Mon

Anyone else catch Kennedy (Irayi Limon, is it?) in the Always maxi pad commercial?


[> Yep -- VampRiley, 18:35:52 12/29/03 Mon

[> Wow...and Rona in a credit card commercial...i want Amanda and Vi to show up somewhere! -- Nino, 20:24:35 12/30/03 Tue

[> [> Wasn't it a Dominoes Pizaa commercial? -- Cheryl, 15:25:45 12/31/03 Wed

I just saw Rona in a commercial, too. I thought it was for Dominoes Pizza, although it started out with a lot of cut up credit cards.

[> [> [> yep--just saw it -- anom, 19:00:18 01/04/04 Sun

The confusion is understandable--I think the message was, if you've maxed out your credit cards over the holidays, stay home & order pizza. (Hey, if it takes more than 1/2 hour, it won't cost you anything!) "Rona" was behind a counter at the beginning, trying to make one--any--of a customer's credit cards work.

[> Rhona did lots of shows pre-BtVS; Vi was in a Coke spot -- Sofdog, 14:20:23 12/31/03 Wed

[> Limon was also on a WalMart commercial -- Vickie, 20:05:00 01/01/04 Thu

Inca Mummy Girl - "She was gypped" -- CW, 06:06:52 12/30/03 Tue

The 'subtext' is all pretty much text in this one. The Chosen One has to give up a normal life for the good of all. The twist is instead of just dying young and saving the world, IMG's sacrifice creates a new threat to the world. She's left undead and conscious as history passes her by. Her 'Watcher' is there to keep her dead instead of to keep her alive. The Slayer's identity is supposed to be secret. IMG has to steal someone's identity; we never hear her real name.

Lots of other fun stuff in a fairly shallow episode:
Xander yet again falls for the Chosen One.
Someone finally notices how cute Willow is.
Sven on Cordy - "Is she even from this country?" - She did seem like she was from her own little world in those days.
The lipstick mix up - IMG's using one in the girl's room and then a few minutes later Buffy says she never had one.
We can understand why no one notices IMG is wearing a boy's shirt when she arrives, but what was Ampata doing with the girl's blue jeans IMG wore the next day in his suitcase? They sure weren't Buffy's size.

IMG isn't usually on most people's top 25 Buffy episodes, even mine, but I sort of like it anyway.


[> Inca Mummy Girl: All 'round Scooby Love -- Prosperina, 06:43:29 12/30/03 Tue

'Inca Mummy Girl' as I remember it was a basically tacky episode - but fun. Lots of fun moments that never added up: Buffy's plea for reassurance "I don't always use violence. Do I?" The Chess Club with crime. Buffy's graceful encouragement of Xander's attentions to Ampata. Xander challenging Ampata to kill him instead of Willow. The beginnings of Oz. The total absence of Angel. All in all, fun and completely disposable.

[> Re: Inca Mummy Girl - "She was gypped" -- Ames, 09:11:16 12/30/03 Tue

Although not a great episode, in some ways IMG was the true "mission statement" of BtVS. Joss has said that "Innocence" was the "mission statement", but it really started before then. The first season was mostly standalone episodes about the metaphoric "high school is hell" theme. But after Prophecy Girl I think that Joss realized that the inherently interesting story was Buffy herself, i.e. the John Campbell-esque "hero's journey". IMG was the statement of that idea via the example of Ampata.

[> introducing recurring characters -- purplegrrl, 11:17:41 12/30/03 Tue

This episode also begins Jonathan's "journey" to becoming an even bigger "butt-monkey" than Xander. At least Xander, despite his whining, was never really the total dweeb he believed himself to be up until "Buffy vs. Dracula." Poor Jonathan, on the other hand, is truly picked on at every turn (is it because he's short, because he's a nerd, or because he's basically clueless??).

[> Re: Slayer Power -- Joann, 07:10:48 12/31/03 Wed

Frequent reader of this board; just delurking today; and BTW Happy New Year to all.

Liked IMG because in this episode Buffy does a supernatural jump in order to confront IMG and IMG recognizes Buffy's talents by saying "You're not human, are you?" which confirmed what I had thought from Day One that she wasn't totally human but I'm not sure yet whether that has been ultimately decided.

I also like all the episodes that don't get an A+ rating like I Robot, You Jane, Killed by Death, Teacher's Pet, Bad Eggs, etc. They're sometimes rich with other interesting details.

BtVS actors in strange places -- purplegrrl, 11:04:47 12/30/03 Tue

I was watching the last part of "Legal Eagles" (from 1986) last night and who should I see: Kristine Sutherland playing "Secretary #2". This is a bit part near the end of the movie when Robert Redford and Debra Winger's characters scam to get insurance records necessary to their murder defense of Darryl Hannah's character.


[> Heh. -- KdS, 04:10:44 01/01/04 Thu

I saw Meet the Parents on TV the other day and Kali Rocha had a bit part at the end as an irritatingly and perkily bureaucratic flight attendant. One could definitely see some Halfrek elements.

Happy New Year -- dub ;o), 18:41:05 12/31/03 Wed

I wish you all the very best for the coming year, and look forward to continued philosophical discussion of the Jossverse.

(And chocolate.)

(And cats...and, um, what's the third thing?)



[> Happy 2004! -- Cactus Watcher, 19:58:01 12/31/03 Wed

[> Re: Happy New Year -- Matlack73, 20:02:53 12/31/03 Wed

Happy New Year! Thanks for a year of great posts.

[> Happy New Year to you too........;) -- Rufus, 22:10:18 12/31/03 Wed

[> Stastny Novy Rok! -- cougar, 22:37:42 12/31/03 Wed

[> Holy **** !! It's 2004 !! Now what? -- OnM, 22:53:44 12/31/03 Wed

[> and many happy returns! -- Sara, ready to be new and improved in 2004, 23:00:57 12/31/03 Wed

and tomorrow starts the resolutions!

[> Happy New Year to Everyone!!!! -- LittleBit [passing out the cats and chocolates], 23:22:30 12/31/03 Wed

And I resolve not to break any of the New Year's Resolutions I'm not making!

[> Happy New Year from Alaska! -- HonorH, 01:16:46 01/01/04 Thu

[> Happy New Year, everyone! -- KdS, 04:11:46 01/01/04 Thu

Best wishes for 2004!

[> Re: Happy New Year! -- aliera, 05:39:40 01/01/04 Thu

[> Happy New Year to all! -- mamcu, 07:34:50 01/01/04 Thu

I wish you all freedom, contentment, and new dreams to follow...

[> Happy Newest Year!! -- Ann, 08:32:34 01/01/04 Thu

Best wishes to all around the world. Peace!! Happy New Year!!!!

[> Happy Cats, Chocolates, and Canadians! -- Masquerade, 10:48:14 01/01/04 Thu

And New Years too, of course!

[> [> Happy New Year to all! From a cat and chocolate loving Canadian. -- jane, 16:17:32 01/02/04 Fri

[> Happy 2004 to all! -- MsGiles, 14:44:54 01/01/04 Thu

And by coincidence, it's my birthday. My last year in my first half century. Gulp.

[> [> Happy birthday! -- Masq, 17:04:37 01/01/04 Thu

A new year's baby!

[> [> [> Thanks! (I haven't forgotten the archives btw!) -- MsGiles, 06:19:07 01/05/04 Mon

[> [> Happy birthday! -- KdS, 23:28:43 01/01/04 Thu

And sorry the idea for a Christmas meet didn't take off - some unfortunate stuff happening in the run-up.

[> [> [> 2004 maybe -- MsGiles, 05:34:12 01/02/04 Fri

[> [> happy personal new year, msgiles! -- anom, 09:36:22 01/02/04 Fri

And Happy New Year 2004 to everybody, w/all sorts of good stuff in it! Including lots of Buffyverse-related philosophical goodness!

[> Best of all you can wish for in 2004! -- Vickie (just back from a miniVacation!), 19:44:13 01/01/04 Thu

and happy birthday MsGiles.

[> Happy birthday MsGiles! And happy hangovers to everyone else! -- Pony, 21:15:23 01/01/04 Thu

It's been a day of aspirin and s5 dvds. Not a bad way to start the year. Well, except for the pain part... but it did give me new appreciation for Spike's chip and Willow's spell-induced headaches. Oy, you think you're safe avoiding the champagne and then someone breaks out the lychee liqueur...

[> Happy New Year from Wisconsin, where it's rainy and cold! Please save me! -- DorianQ (really, have a great year, everyone!), 22:54:44 01/02/04 Fri

[> Happy New Year several days in!!!! This is how we do it in the '04 baby! -- deeva, 08:47:47 01/03/04 Sat

[> [> and speaking of '04 ya doin', marie? -- anom, 12:23:17 01/04/04 Sun

I hope you've been too busy taking care of a healthy new baby to post about it--& I hope it went OK & everybody's fine!

[> Re: Happy New Years! God knows the last one was eventful! :-) -- Dedalus and Wombat, 18:30:22 01/04/04 Sun

Thanks much to all our friends, near and far.

And here's hoping we can possibly find a way to top last year's Dragoncon.

Paul and Patti

P.S. Rob, look, it's James Marsters!

Current board | January 2004