February 2002 posts
Point that must not be forgotten about Dawn (Spoilers?) -- Sean, 13:30:29 02/16/02 Sat
Dawn, from I believe the first episode we met her, has always stolen.
This isn't as a result of the death of her mom, or Buffy's neglect, though perhaps it has gotten worst because of it.
Dawn has always been shown as a Klepo. It's sad that it has taken Buffy so long to find out.
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[> Klepo or Clepto? Hee Hee! Just Kidding! -- jaffakree, 14:02:31 02/16/02 Sat
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[> Re: Point that must not be forgotten about Dawn (Spoilers?) -- Dochawk, 14:21:20 02/16/02 Sat
Since Dawn was made from Buffy and we know that Buffy had some similar previous experiences (stealing lipstick), perhaps we are seeing Buffy as 15 year old? The predivorce Buffy who already feels that she isn't getting attention from mom and dad?
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[> Re: Point that must not be forgotten about Dawn (Spoilers?) -- Rattletrap, 15:04:49 02/16/02 Sat
It is true, we see several references in early S5 to Dawn "borrowing" Buffy's clothes or earrings, and we've seen in several cases that Buffy has done the same with Dawn or Joyce's things. That said, I'm not sure that is exactly the same thing as Dawn ripping off trinkets from the Magic Box or leather jackets from the mall. The first is a case of individuals sharing a household and working on the assumption that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission if you borrow something; the latter is actually criminal. I may be wrong on this, I'm curious to hear what others think.
Minor nitpick: Dawn is not a kleptomaniac. By definition, someone with kleptomania steals habitually and uncontrollably, usually with nothing to gain from it. Dawn intends to gain something from her stealing--even if it focuses less on the item and more on the attention and the possible thrill of getting caught.
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Sunnydale and ethnicity -- Rochefort, 13:34:35 02/16/02 Sat
Have you guys had in depth conversations about this ever here?
I try not to pay attention to it too much because I don't want to find out anything I don't like, but I would really like to hear what you guys think. What is ME's (or Joss's) perspective on race and ethnicity? I know Mr. Trick made a comment once about how white Sunnydale is, and o.k., Sunnydale is white, but when characters from other ethnic groups come on the show (as rare as that is) I think they're usually villains. Mr. Trick, the Minister sounding guy that tried to raise the master, a lot of the vampires seem Asian. Kendra was black but she wasn't African American. A foreigner like Giles. It seems funny to me with all the societal issues that ME and Joss deal with that to have avoided ANY conversation about ethnicity while simutaneously making quite a few black villains is out of character. I'm not saying Buffy is any more racist than any other show on t.v. but Buffy challenges so many ideas and I think it is definitely safe to say that Buffy has NEVER challenged out ideas on ethnicity or ethnic stereo type. It seems to fall into these stereotypes, in fact, quite easily. What's going on here? Anybody got some help?
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[> Re: Sunnydale and ethnicity -- matching mole, 14:31:25 02/16/02 Sat
This has been briefly brought up here before but not discussed in any detail (at least not in the last few months since I showed up). It has seemed pretty odd (and mildly disturbing) to me as well. Basically the paucity of ethnic diversity has been explained by Sunnydale being an all white town as you said. However, given that it is a university town, the lack of non-white faces just about everywhere becomes staggeringly unrealistic from my perspective. However my perspective may be somewhat biased as during my life in the U.S. I have lived either in the more urban parts of large cities or (as now) in smaller towns with large college campuses. I may have an exaggerated impression of the geographic integration of the U.S. as a whole.
I'm confident that ME doesn't have some hidden agenda. The most likely explanation I can think of is that they didn't want to make racial issues an aspect of BtVS (having enough on their plate already) so they have tended to set it in a setting where those issues aren't likely to arise (in contrast to AtS which has dealt with racial issues to a limited extent). I seem to recall in the earlier episodes that at least one teacher at Sunnydale High and a guidance counseler were African American. My guess is that the reason that more 'background' characters (e.g. some of the employees at the Doublemeat Palace) aren't played by visible minorities is likely just laziness on the part of who ever is casting them.
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[> [> As to casting... -- VampRiley, 14:50:44 02/16/02 Sat
Those who do the casting shouldn't have to wait around to find someone who is of color and that is good for the part. They start worrying about color, they might hire someone who would actually suck at the part. Then the show could start to really blow. Now, it does seem a little odd that in a town in southern California, there is a low number of people of color, it isn't completely out of the realm of possibility, though extremely unlikely.
VR
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[> [> [> Re: As to casting... -- matching mole, 15:33:51 02/16/02 Sat
I was really thinking more about extras and characters with a handful of lines (e.g. students on campus, employees at DMP, etc.) when I brought up the issue of casting laziness. I can't imagine that they would have any difficulty finding actors of any ethnicity that could suitably fill such minor roles with a minimum of effort.
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[> [> [> Re: As to casting... -- Maxwell, 20:36:01 02/16/02 Sat
Remember that casting comes last. First the part has to be written. The writer sits down and decides that they need a new character for the show. They decide on the age, sex, race and ethnicity as well as any other pertinent details. If the writers decided that they wanted an African, Oriental or Hispanic character on the show they could of course find a competent actor. The fact is that if the writers wanted a black character then the casting director would in fact have to "find someone who is of color and that is good for the part". That's just the way it works.
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[> [> [> [> Sometimes -- Vickie, 14:30:59 02/18/02 Mon
I believe that, for cast regulars, the process works largely as you describe. But sometimes, they just cast the best actor they can find for the role.
Two examples come to mind. One: Lando Calrissian in episodes 5 and 6 of Star Wars. Wasn't written as a "black" character. (Whatever that means in the eleventy millionth century) He was just written as clever, smooth, very attractive to the ladies. Casting Billy Dee Williams in the role was brilliant.
Two: Dr. Laura Rosen in the Babylon 5 episode The Quality of Mercy. The role was originally written as a male doctor, but June Lockhart became available and they wanted to work with her. Meaty role, nothing specifically masculine or feminine about a physician's ethics. It was great casting and she did a fine job.
I hope that, as we mature as a culture/species, we'll see more of this kind of thinking.
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[> Let's get to the point! -- jaffakree, 14:58:32 02/16/02 Sat
Hmm
Let's get to the point. Would Buffy go out with a black guy? How would the Buffy fans react to seeing a black guy do to Buffy what Spike has been doing to her?
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[> [> Re: Let's get to the point! -- Rahael, 15:34:07 02/16/02 Sat
How would fans react to Buffy dating a black guy?
How did they react to Willow dating Tara?
How are they reacting to Gunn and Fred?
How did they react to Giles and Olivia?
Umm.....how well did they react to Buffy and Riley, mr blue eyes and blond hair?
Does colour even come into it?
Of all television shows, it struck me that BtVS fans would be likely to be most accepting and tolerant.
Nearly 90% of the fans that I know in RL are Asian, Black and Jewish.
We kind of empathise with the whole being on the margins thing, and having to deal with a tough world. And white or not Buffy is a role model for me.
As for the lack of skilled black actors and actresses. That I find hard to believe though. Just look at Hollywood, and see how many talented black actors are trying to make it through. They don't have an easy time of it.
I don't think Buffy needs black actors to deal with issues of race and alienation. I simply think it would be good for the industry for black actors to get more roles on this great show.
But I've never got exercised about race politics in Sunnydale. Its not an issue for me with this show.
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[> [> [> Re: Let's get to the point! -- jaffakree, 15:38:07 02/16/02 Sat
Point well taken.
But hey, I think its getting to point where Buffy needs some ethnic man in her life.
Notwithstanding vampires.
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[> [> [> Thanks Rahael. -- Rochefort, 15:49:13 02/16/02 Sat
I agree about the fact that Buffy can and DOES deal with issues of ethnicity and alienation withOUT having a diverse cast. And I also agree that there are PLENTY of talented actors in this country and to say that it's just too hard to find any that aren't white can't possibly be the case.
I wonder what the stastics ARE as to what ethnic groups watch the show?
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[> [> [> Thanks Rahael. -- Rochefort, 15:50:16 02/16/02 Sat
I agree about the fact that Buffy can and DOES deal with issues of ethnicity and alienation withOUT having a diverse cast. And I also agree that there are PLENTY of talented actors in this country and to say that it's just too hard to find any that aren't white can't possibly be the case.
I wonder what the stastics ARE as to what ethnic groups watch the show?
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[> [> Re: Let's get to the point! -- Lisa, 12:42:39 02/18/02 Mon
Answer to first question - Sure.
Answer to second question, people would accuse the show of being racist, playing into negative stereotypes etc.
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[> Wow, I think there's a big issue here after all. -- Rochefort, 15:08:02 02/16/02 Sat
Mole, like you, I've lived in urban areas and college campuses. You're right, there was one black guidance counseler. He seemed like a good guy, then he bit it. I think the likliest explanation IS that this show is all ready trying to dissect gender, if only in a limited way, and that it gets pretty complicated when you start bringing in ethnicity. Just look at these posts. Protests against affirmitive action AND interracial dating all ready. Eeee. This could get explosive.
And still... (sigh) in ignoring, there is a sort of statement.
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[> Re: Sunnydale and ethnicity -- Rattletrap, 15:16:06 02/16/02 Sat
There have been a handful of African-American characters on the good side (Dawn's friend in "The Body" comes to mind), but the entire show has been pretty caucasian from day one. In some ways this is not an entirely inaccurate description of most white-collar, suburban edge-cities in the west; the African-American population is comparatively small. The more severe problem with ethnicity in Sunnydale is not the lack of African-Americans but of Hispanics. A town of that size in southern California should probably be around 30% Mexican-American, if not higher. The only Hispanic character I remember was Dawn's principal in "Tough Love."
As mole and VR speculated, I suspect this has to do more with the availability of skilled actors than with any hidden racist agenda on ME's part.
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[> [> AgentProvacateurs abound on this board or what?! -- jaffakree, 15:24:11 02/16/02 Sat
Admit it mole, VR, Rattletrap you just could not stand the heat.
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[> [> [> Now I'm really confused. -- matching mole, 15:48:09 02/16/02 Sat
I don't have the vaguest idea what this is supposed to mean. I didn't respond to your initial post, true, but it was only posted within the last hour or so. And I don't think there was anything in my initial post that said anything about the availability of actors of any color. In fact my implication was just the opposite (at least I intended it to be) - that ME was casting primarily white actors for minor roles out of laziness (rather than availability of talent or some ulterior motive).
I would have no problem with the possibility of including major characters of color on BtVS or romantic relationships between these postulated characters and any character on the show. In fact at least two inter-racial relationships have been portrayed by ME (Fred and Gunn and Giles and his friend from England whose name I forget) and I can't recall anyone on this board having the slightest problem with that (or even commenting on it at all).
Have to go make dinner and watch Buffy now so no more from me for the moment.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Now I'm really confused. -- jaffakree, 15:55:44 02/16/02 Sat
All I'm saying is that a little color right about now would spice up the show don't you think?
I mean everybody's been complaning about how jw is not writing for the show and that's its been suffering ever since DMP.
It is just a suggestion that's all.
Oh and the reference is just from a band from the past that I dig.
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[> [> [> [> [> For me, race doesn't make one bit of difference. -- VampRiley, 16:14:27 02/16/02 Sat
As long as there is a consistency in good writing, I got no problem with it.
BTW, what band were you referencing?
VR
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: For me, race doesn't make one bit of difference. -- jaffakree, 16:17:16 02/16/02 Sat
Hey VR
I'm with you. Hopefully JW will write and direct it.
The band was Foreigner.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What knoid of music is Foreigner? Never heard of them before. -- VampRiley, 16:20:45 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That should be "kind". -- VampRiley, 16:22:54 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> VampRiley: It doesn't matter.... -- jaffakree, 16:23:56 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks VR, now I feel old.... -- LadyStarlight, 17:37:12 02/16/02 Sat
...Foreigner was an 80's rock band. Lou Gramm was the lead singer. A big hit for them was "I Want to Know what Love Is".
(going to go stare mournfully at my CD collection now ;))
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LadyStarlight I'll go stare too! After I watch Buffy!!! -- jaffakree, 17:45:26 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I was born in August of 1979. Sorry. -- VampRiley, 18:15:11 02/16/02 Sat
Didn't mean to make you sad. Sorry. (he said apologetically [sp?] )
Hanging his head in shame,
VR
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's cool man. Music trancends time and space. -- jaffakree, 18:19:15 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not sad...just old ;) -- LadyStarlight, 18:21:38 02/16/02 Sat
But I feel younger now that I've only got 8 years on you.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> He looks up with half closed eyes and a goofy grin, happy once again. -- VampRiley, 18:28:38 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LadyStarlight: Its nice to know your a fan of BtVS too. -- jaffakree, 18:29:20 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> scandalized! -- yuri, 01:10:44 02/18/02 Mon
"As mole and VR speculated, I suspect this has to do more with the availability of skilled actors than with any hidden racist agenda on ME's part."
mm said (in a much nicer tone than I'm inclined to) "I can't imagine that they would have any difficulty finding actors of any ethnicity that could suitably fill such minor roles with a minimum of effort," or, for god's sake, major roles! I think suggesting that there aren't a plethora of amazing actors of color is audacious and, yes, I'll say it, racist! More the 21st century subtle kind of racism than the KKK kind... just as dangerous, if not more, IMO b/c it's harder to see and fight.
..speaking of which, is anyone else put off by the term "white hats?" Though I enjoyed the wish and all, it's never ceased to spook me. Am I missing a reference to something else?
and I should probably just clarify that I agree with some people above in that I think Joss and ME decided that they had "too much on their plate" to deal w/ race, unfortunately. It /would/ be a very different show if they did...
I guess I don't completely condemn ME for their neglect of the race issue, I mean you can't expect them to cover everything people want them to, but I am sad and disappointed that they have not because I think it's one of the most important things to tackle today. And they've got good forwards. (okay, I don't know what the people are called that generally do the most tackling in football, but let's just pretend they're called forwards.)
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[> [> [> White hats -- d'Herblay, 03:01:30 02/18/02 Mon
White hats as a synonym for "the good guys" goes back to the classic Hollywood western, where the hero often wore a white hat (think of the Lone Ranger, or Alan Ladd in Shane, or Roy Rogers), while the villain wore a black one (think of Jack Palance in Shane, or Merle Haggard). As the villains, like the heroes, were 99% likely to be white, I do not think that black hat or its complement can be considered racist. The classic Hollywood western, on the other hand . . .
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[> [> [> Re: scandalized! -- Rattletrap, 08:13:49 02/18/02 Mon
My point seems to have been misconstrued here, so I'll attempt to clarify: The percentage of African-Americans in the US population is roughly 15-20%, I think. The percentage of screen/television actors of African-American descent seems much, much smaller than that; the numbers are even more disproportionate for Hispanics. I, in no way, wish to disparage the accomplishments of the plethora of very talented African-American actors. I was merely attempting (however poorly) to suggest that the Hollywood system tends to be stacked against a realistic representation of all races because certain groups are not adequately represented.
I hope this clarifies my meaning,
'trap
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[> Re: Sunnydale and ethnicity -- neaux, 15:20:57 02/16/02 Sat
I brought up this issue in one of my first posts on this board and it was totally ignored..
but I cant bust too much on BTVS because it is like my favorite show.
This is just my ideas on the situation. I think that if anyone has a problem with the lack of diversity on the show should watch Angel instead. More Asian and African American casting. Kudos to Angel...
As for Buffy, I could say that they are showing different SPECIES of monsters at least.. but that's a cop out.
I just hope that Buffy doesnt gain the "FRIENDS" notoriety.
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[> [> Re: Sunnydale and ethnicity -- jaffakree, 15:34:27 02/16/02 Sat
Yeah, I cant bust too much on BTVS either. I really dig her and the Scoobies
I'm just wondering what would Buffy fans think of Buffy going out with a Latin, Black, Asian etc...?
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[> [> [> Re: Sunnydale and ethnicity -- Lisa, 08:47:32 02/17/02 Sun
What if Buffy was black or hispanic? Would we identify with her as much? Almost all main characters ie heroes, on television are white. Minorities, in the few cases where they are protrayed at all, are relegated to sidekick status.
To be fair those Buffy was supposed to protray the life of a subburban middle class female, in the "valley girl" tradition of movies such as "Clueless". Therefore Buffy needed to be white.
Buffy is popular in India. Perhaps an Indian-American character wouldn't hurt.
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[> [> I'm not saying it's a hidden agenda... -- Rochefort, 15:45:36 02/16/02 Sat
But I don't WANT to watch Angel. His hair stands straight up. And he's bloody stupid.
I think the point about a lack of hispanics is a good one.
And I DON'T think ME has a hidden AGENDA! That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that they don't seem to be transgressing ANYthing in the area of ethnicity on the show. If anything, they're slightly worse in terms of ethnicity than many other shows on t.v. but I would never say it's a hidden agenda. Possibly just a lack of thought, or as another poster suggested, an unwillingness to grapple with the issue and so an attempt to leave it out all together.
As to the earlier question, I don't think most of the Buffy watching audience would think anything at all of Buffy having an asian, hispanic or african american boyfriend. As long as he had nice cheek bones.
"Sweet" was black, right? I think many of the African American villains are stereotypical and boring. I'm thinking also of that guy with the vest and the hammer. And really Mr. Trick, too.
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[> [> [> Re: I'm not saying it's a hidden agenda... -- jaffakree, 15:50:30 02/16/02 Sat
Was Sweet black? Who knows? Is that how you saw him? Interesting to see how you think.
Nick cheek bones. Yeah he's got him.
If jw wants new blood maybe he should give em a try.
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[> [> [> [> Re: I'm not saying it's a hidden agenda... -- Isabel, 17:13:11 02/16/02 Sat
As for Hinton Battle's ethnicity, there were production photos for Once More with Feeling on the Web. Just to make sure, I looked for his bio and picture. Unless I misinterpreted what I read, he's African-American.
I think the point in hiring him to be Sweet was not to have a token African-American on the show, but to have a 3 time Tony award winning Broadway star on the show.
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[> [> [> [> [> that would be a good point. -- Rochefort, 17:27:23 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not saying it's a hidden agenda... -- jaffakree, 17:28:29 02/16/02 Sat
Here Here!!!
Now, didn't his introduction spice up the show. Especially the way he was looking at Dawnie.
Now, what about Buffy?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> As I recall, Buffy was perfectly willing to serve as his "bride" -- WW, 19:33:33 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> yes, HB is black, but does that make sweet black? are demons played by white actors white? -- yuri, 01:13:58 02/18/02 Mon
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[> [> Re: Sunnydale and ethnicity -- anom, 22:35:38 02/16/02 Sat
"I think that if anyone has a problem with the lack of diversity on the show should watch Angel instead. More Asian and African American casting. Kudos to Angel..."
I had a letter to ME composed in my head after about the 1st 6-8 eps of Angel about how badly it compared to Buffy (at that point; it's improved on many counts since then). If this board had been around then, I'd've posted it here. One major subtheme was that Angel was living in an LA that was whiter than Sunnydale, a fact only pointed up by plots involving "racial" divisions among demons & Angel's resentment of "stereotypes perpetuated by hack writers" (like that vampires sleep in coffins). In those 6-8 shows there had been 4 characters who weren't white, & only 1 was a major part (the bartender at D'Oblique); I think only 2 even had any lines. There was "ethnodemonology" but very little depiction of ethnic diversity among humans. Even after Doyle died & Cordelia started having the visions, I remember a black W&H lawyer & a couple of Koreans (they were in Koreatown, after all) who never showed up again, & that was about it for the rest of the season. I think that was the season there was (for once) a big stink about how few nonwhite characters were on any show, & the next year, Gunn & his gang were introduced. Of course, Gunn is still the only regular character who isn't white. But the numbers have generally improved since then, although there've still been very few Hispanic characters (in California!).
As for Sunnydale, it does seem to have a working-class part of town, as well as a seamier side (like where Faith's hotel was), but the Summers family seems to live in pretty much a whitebread suburban area. Rattletrap makes a good point about the proportion of Mexican-Americans in Southern California, but how many of that 30% can afford a nice big house like Joyce's? De facto segregation may account for Buffy & Dawn's school district being overwhelmingly white. We do occasionally see nonwhite characters aside from those named by other posters (there was also a teacher Marcie tried to suffocate), but usually as extras in crowd scenes (like at the prom or in classes or outdoor scenes at UC-Sunnydale). And the ranks of the Initiative had a higher percentage of nonwhites than we usually see on Buffy, reflecting the military's status as more of an equal-opportunity employer than most (including ME, apparently).
I don't see any lack of "minority" talent available, & I'm sorry to see anyone suggesting this as the reason for its scarcity on the show. If anything, the rarity of parts for nonwhite actors should mean there are plenty to answer casting calls that are open to them. I don't know how often casting personnel specify race when putting out a call for a part, & there is a tendency to assume "white" unless otherwise specified. I wonder if nonwhite actors' agents don't make as much effort on their behalf as they do for their white clients, or if they tend to channel them to certain (stereo)types of parts. (I have no idea if this is the case, but if there's anyone it's still safe to bash, it's agents.)
And speaking of stereotypes, on a show like Buffy I don't think casting nonwhites as villains has the same implications it does on more reality-based shows, not least because there are so many villains. I mean, c'mon--Mr. Trick & the guy in the vest trying to resurrect the Master weren't bad guys because they were black--they were bad guys because--hello--they were vampires. Villain parts are some of the plum parts on Buffy! Mr. Trick was a great character who went against a lot of stereotypes by being an intelligent, enterprising, high-tech-oriented black man. Sweet was just amazing (& what was that about "choosing to see" him as African-American? it was obvious under the facial prostheses). I don't think there's reason to hold casting some nonwhite actors as bad guys against the show when there are also (a) nonwhite actors cast as good guys or just ordinary folks & (b) white actors (plenty of them) cast as bad guys.
Finally, the issue that was originally raised was ethnicity & stereotypes on BtVS. I don't understand jaffakree's fixation on Buffy's dating someone who isn't white as "the point." (BTW, in addition to Rahael's list, Xander dated a Latina. OK, a demummified, life-essence-sucking Latina, but still....)
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[> [> [> Re: 4 of the 6 Slayers we have seen were not white -- LeeAnn, 23:36:22 02/16/02 Sat
Four of the six Slayers we have seen were not white. The first Slayer, the Chinese Slayer, the New York Slayer Spike killed, and Kendra. That seems like a pretty good mix for heroes.
I like the mix the way it is. I'm not into reality since 9-11 and never would have insisted that Buffy reflect it. If more diversity is shown, it would have to include more cultural diversity, not just some black or Hispanic faces. I think that's the rub. That would change the whole imaginary cultural universe that we have existed in for the last 6 years.
I wonder if there have been few major minority characters because Joss wasn't interested in accurately depicting the cultural differences, or because he was more interested in examining different issues such as overturning the stereotype of helpless blondes and powerless women.
But if it's important to people maybe they should start including tokens. How about a black sidekick for Buffy? A voodoo witch friend for Willow? A Hispanic coworker for Xander?
God knows I'm PC in RL. I guess BtVS should have to start being PC too.
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[> [> [> [> Re: 4 of the 6 Slayers we have seen were not white -- Hauptman, 00:33:14 02/17/02 Sun
"But if it's important to people maybe they should start including tokens. How about a black sidekick for Buffy? A voodoo witch
friend for Willow? A Hispanic coworker for Xander?"
Xander does have hispanic co-workers. They were introduced when Buffy briefly worked with them. And there are many whites who practice Voodoo. While I agree with your earlier point, this casual race baiting seems beneath you.
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[> [> [> [> [> yeah. Tokens are more debilitating than helpful to anyone. (anom - very nicely said above&below) -- yuri, 01:21:31 02/18/02 Mon
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[> [> [> [> thanks for pointing that out -- anom, 21:56:08 02/17/02 Sun
I really hadn't been thinking about the pre-Buffy Slayers. But they haven't appeared on very many episodes, & the thread (seems to me) is more about how Buffy's world is portrayed.
I don't think anyone's asking for tokens, and I don't consider wanting to see more other-than-white characters a matter of political correctness. After all, "Buffy" is about what would happen if vampires & demons really existed in a world otherwise resembling our own, & in the world most of its viewers live in, most places, even predominantly white suburbs, have noticeable numbers of people of other races. Not to show them in mostly-white shows is in effect to pretend they don't exist (except barely on the periphery).
Some posters have said viewers can't identify w/the experiences of characters on shows about people of racial or ethnic groups different from theirs. But one thing a good TV series or movie can do is help viewers identify w/experiences they haven't had personally (& aren't likely to--even metaphorically). If the writing, direction, & acting are good, even viewers who are not black & not parents should be able to identify with, say, a plot in which Bernie Mac can't get a cab to take him home when there's an emergency w/the kids, & people who probably will never experience such discrimination in real life may even get their minds opened a little.
Last point: Part of the problem (for a long time) has been that many white writers & producers assumed that shows w/mostly white casts (or all-white casts!) were "for everyone." This comes out of the fact that white is the default assumption for race in the US (like male for gender, Xtian for religion, straight for sexual orientation). It's easy when you belong to the if-not-otherwise-specified group to assume those in other groups have similar experiences/ways of thinking &, if you work on a show, not to see the need to portray anything different.
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[> [> [> thanks for so seriously bringing this back to topic -- Rochefort, 09:15:51 02/17/02 Sun
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[> [> [> [> appreciate the compliments, roche & yuri, but i was hoping... -- anom, 11:40:48 02/18/02 Mon
...there'd be more discussion of some of the points i made. Some of them are addressed below (& I'll join that part of the discussion there), but I'm not seeing that much more about the media aspects of the issue.
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[> An idea from the bleachers -- Darby, 17:45:48 02/16/02 Sat
There is an interesting take on this question at
Slain by Buffy
the essay is about how Sunnydale is really a town in England, and the ethnicity is used as support. It's a fascinating read.
For another opinion, my wife thinks that it's the responsibility of American TV to represent an ethnic mix, perhaps even an "unrealistic" one, because of the effects that can have on our own viewers and the image presented abroad that we're at least trying to be what we've professed to be. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but the idea certainly has some merit.
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[> [> Re: An idea from the bleachers -- jaffakree, 17:55:52 02/16/02 Sat
Point well taken from the bleachers!
All, I'm saying is that JW should introduce some non-England blood into the mix.
JW could make it so that this non-England blood used powerful magiks to control Buffy's mind so that all her actions were not her responsiblity. Then the Scoobies could come and save her. Since she was under the magiks her actions would not be held against her and she could continue to be the Champion of Sunndale without blemish.
Just an idea to bring the fire back to BtVS.
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[> [> Re: An idea from the bleachers -- Rochefort, 17:58:15 02/16/02 Sat
I agree there's merit to your wife's idea. But a little town in England, hm? I'm going to check that article.
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[> [> [> Re: An idea from the bleachers -- jaffakree, 18:03:43 02/16/02 Sat
Rochefort:
What's up man! Who cares about some web article that could have been created with Notepad in 60 seconds.
Can't you just entertain the thought that Buffy could benefit from some non-white interaction?
Think about it.
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[> [> [> [> lol. all right. *considers* -- Rochefort, 18:12:50 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> What a convincing argument! -- Rochefort, 18:02:32 02/16/02 Sat
Gosh, he makes a great case!
No wonder I like Sunnydale so much. I hate baseball AND cars. I didn't know Joss grew up there. That argument makes a heck of a lot of sense and the absense of ethnic differences fits rather neatly in there. Though not entirely. Like squishing merangue into a shoe. Thanks for the tip!
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[> [> [> also the best explanation I've heard to Sdale's lack of guns. -- Rochefort, 18:03:46 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> Sarcasm does not become you Rochefort. -- jaffakree, 18:12:18 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> No I'm really considering! I have a Japanese friend I might hook her up with. -- Rochefort, 18:14:43 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> Wait, I really meant that about the England thing. It's good. -- Rochefort, 18:16:29 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> Rochefort: What was your point? -- jaffakree, 18:20:28 02/16/02 Sat
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[> [> Re: An idea from the bleachers -- Rachel, 19:27:41 02/16/02 Sat
The most powerful writing happens when write about something we know. It makes a lot of sense that since JW grew up in England, his character setting is English-y. I'm glad he doesn't try to fit into a "correctness" mold. We are treated each week to hear his true and distinct voice. I'm also glad he doesn't give us characters solely to satisfy fan longings. Otherwise it would be all naked Spike all day. I think BtVS has plenty of diversity...there are humans, demons, werewolves, vampires, ghosts, and all other manner of creatures.
Rachel
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[> [> By George, You've Got It!!! -- LeeAnn, 00:28:37 02/17/02 Sun
Sunnyvale is in England.
"But what's the reason? Well, Joss Whedon, as usual. He grew up in England, and Buffy is after all about teenhood, so it's logical that he'd take the setting of his teenhood. Giles is the key authority figure, and he's English; maybe he's even loosely based on one of Whedon's former teachers. How conscious this Englishifying is, well, I don't know. But as far as I'm concerned, Buffy is a more accurate representation of (middle-class suburban) English culture than anything else I can think of. Apart from the vampires that is. Those we do not have." http://www.daydreamnation.co.uk/buffy/buffyengland.html
Excellent. It explains a lot.
It explains why Sunnyvale has a mystical quality. A place in the mist with different rules than the rest of the world.
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[> [> Re: Joss in High School -- Dochawk, 10:13:54 02/17/02 Sun
Joss grew up in America (Manhattan). His family was in the screenwriting business (my guess is he grew up pretty affluent). He spent his senior year at a British High School for Boys. Certainly he learned alot about class distinctions and cliques. But Valley speak and the SG are quintessentially American high schoolers. There is little in Buffy that resembles a British Boys Prep. And, the Americans I know who are most afraid of driving, grew up in Manhattan (where many people still don't have their licenses in their 20's)
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[> Re: Not here too -- LeeAnn, 21:21:17 02/16/02 Sat
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is white show. No doubt about that. In the same way that many "black" shows have few to no "white" characters.
It's not about reality.
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[> [> Re: Not here too -- Hauptman, 00:24:11 02/17/02 Sun
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer is white show."
Really? I am a little stunned at this idea. I don't necessarily disagree, and I am not taking issue with you personally, I am just not sure what this means. This phrasing gave me pause I think because to call something "white" excludes me somehow. My reaction to it is the same as when I am informed where the white neighborhood is, or the white public swimming pool. Most of the time people aren't telling me something is white to exclude me from it or to hurt me. They are just telling me where it is in the simplest terms.
Race is a powerful, divisive, complicated subject. Ultimately it comes down to the way people feel. Whites don't want to feel guitly or persecuted, other races do not wish to be ignored, forgotten, marginalized. The very act of discussing race causes these feelings to be revealed and magnified. And that makes it harder to talk about, because we are human and the subject calls into question our humanity, how we see ourselves and how we see each other.
I think Buffy speaks to this issue, the issue of humanity, what it means to be a human being. It's funny, although I did notice a lack of "characters of color" I never thought of it as a "white show." Primarily beacuse I don't know what a white show would look like. "Friends" came up as an example of a white show earlier. I guess I can see that more clearly, but it's still fuzzy for me. Black shows. Asian shows. Latin shows. Gay shows. I think I get it now. I was thinking about it as I wrote those down. I think what you mean is a show that is a white show (or black, latin, gay, etc. show) is one that has closed the door on diversity, it has only allowed certain things to enter into its world view and only those things are important. I get the "Friends" complaint now, but Buffy isn't like that.
Buffy and Angel are richer and deeper than that. Just the idea that this power Buffy has, this calling, this slayer-thing, is not an exclusively white condition, that it has been passed through different races, cultures and classes is enough to make me think this show is beyond such simplification. That is an example of the writers not taking the easy way out. The lazy way out. It may not represent our glorious dream of a "color blind" nation, and it may not represent the true demographics of our reality, but I think, in my humble opinion, that it is saying something ABOUT all of us. That's what I get out of it anyway. Sorry to go on. I was just a little surprised at what that first line brought out of me. I am glad you said it.
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- Yellowork, 04:03:51 02/17/02 Sun
I would take issue with the 'problem' with villains being Black. I am from England, and as all Americans know, English is the only nationality which it is politically apt for a villain to be - like we care! I am sure African Americans are similarly less than attracted to the prospect of being portrayed like Riley Finns, dear God! Gunn is crap. Mr Trick, on the other hand, rules! Notice how Gunn, the 'white-hat', plays along with every conceivable stereotype about young black males, whereas Mr. Trick overturns them.
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- Lisa, 09:26:26 02/17/02 Sun
Remember setting.
Buffy is set in a "peaceful" suburban California community. The name says it all. "Sunnydale". It's a place where the dominant cultural institution is the mall.
For those of us who grew up in communities that were predominately white, in communities where we had no minority friends, not because we were racists, but because minorities just weren't there, it is a community we can identify with.
I came from a very politically liberal town. But it was a town that nonetheless had few minorities. Perhaps one or two non-whites would be in a classroom. Sometimes.
We could be proud that we were racially tolerant. For we never had to be tested.
Sunnydale is definitely "whitebread" territory. Suburban areas like this do exist in California. Perhaps they are becoming more rare now, but Dawn does have a friend who is black. So I think that shows that Sunnydale (like all of subburban America) isn't as "whitebread" as it once was.
And don't forget - Willow is Jewish.
Sunnydale is a suburban area. It's not kind to those who don't embrace the suburban lifestyle. And that means White urban people like Faith, and rural White people like Tara's family even more than it does someone who isn't white. It's more about economics, and culture, than it is about race. If you can't fit into the PTA culture regardless of your race, then you are unwelcomed. But conversely, I really believe that if you can fit into the PTA culture, race wouldn't not matter as much.
Just be sure to remember to cook those cookies for the bake sale.
Actually the most realistic thing would be to have more Asians in Sunnydale.
Below is an interesting link regarding Suburban California lifestyle.
http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2001-12-05-fasttrack.shtml
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[> [> [> [> in our society, you cannot separate race from economics and culture. -- yuri, 02:55:03 02/18/02 Mon
and a white upper middle class suburban neighborhood (however liberal it may be) is racist by definition. There is no way a person of color in the same economic bracket as the people of a predominantly white town would have less trouble in said town than a white "city" or "country" girl/guy. They only have to manipulate their mannerisms, whereas a person of color must constantly prove themselves better than the stereotype that lives somewhere in the minds of even the most conscious white people, and especially those who live in an racially undiverse community. (I don't mean to say that white folks can't fight and reject those stereotypes, but it's unlikely for that to happen especially in a space where those stereotypes aren't often being challenged.) Yes, there is the recent phenomenon of wanting to "acquire" people of color in communities to attain some sense of diversity and acceptance, but the majority of America is not like this.
(Sorry this didn't relate back to Buffy.)
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[> [> [> [> [> Actually, -- Darby, 06:31:39 02/18/02 Mon
That's not entirely true. It seems to depend upon how large the minority is.
I've lived in many places with varying-size minority representation. There seems to be a minimum size (and it varies depending upon the town and the ethnicity of the minority) below which individuals are not seen as a threat and therefore not treated that way.
It's a reflection of human evolutionary development (which is why it's so insidious) to react aggressively to perceived threats - in the "old" days, with nonhuman predators, it established a fear by association which caused many to avoid human groupings and even human individuals, which is a great boon to otherwise relatively defenseless creatures. Unfortunately, as technology advanced, the only outside threat to groups of people were other groups of people, and the "us versus them" reflex was perpetuated, again logically so. But the reflex does require the perception of threat, which doesn't always exist in the American hinterlands - yes, there are people to whom a single individual represents their entire group, and who act accordingly, but they are rarer. And many more may be of the type whose inner voice is saying, "I fear/hate those people, but so-and-so here is okay"; I saw that often in the South, in general areas where racism was a real concern but specific localities where it could be pushed to the rear of someone's consciousness. Areas like predominantly white residential sections. But in the North, and I would assume the west, once out of the cities the threat represented by this or that group gets far away and abstract, and lessens the reaction of the community. Where I am now, you can see this dynamic play out in absolutely different ways in school systems just a few miles apart. We moved all of 12 miles to take my son from a school where I was afraid that he'd be both a target of negative reactions and a student of racist attitudes (beyond a certain age, the peers impart much more than the parents) to where he may be an oddity but no one bothers him about it. The conforming social pressure is a little strong, but I don't see that as inclusionary rather than inherently racist. "Please be more like us" does not automatically imply "what you are otherwise is evil."
I just have a problem with saying anything other than the obvious candidates is "racist by definition." I think that it lessens the connotations of the word "racist," which should have some real power, to apply it that way.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually, -- yuri, 22:51:19 02/18/02 Mon
"I just have a problem with saying anything other than the obvious candidates is "racist by definition." I think that it lessens the connotations of the word "racist," which should have some real power, to apply it that way."
Okay, I definitely see that point, and I regret my inability to think things out completely before I post.
However, I still don't agree with you. You say that "there seems to be a minimum size... below which individuals are not seen as a threat and therefore not treated that way."
First, I think that if this were true in some cases, the cases in which individuals /are/ treated "that way" so outnumber them that it's almost irrelevant to recognize the exceptions. (almost.)
Also, even if in these cases minorities are not seen as "a threat," are they likely to be the most upstanding citizens of the town? Would they have as equal a chance of becoming mayor as a white person?
"But in the North, and I would assume the west, once out of the cities the threat represented by this or that group gets far away and abstract, and lessens the reaction of the community. "
Well, here in California it doesn't seem to be very lessened. SoCal is, from what I've learned growing up right above it, a conservative haven and notoriously racist. That's south, I know, but even in Northern CA it's bad. A family friend of mine who's white won't take his half black half filipino wife to visit his hometown, because it's so akward and uncomforable for her. Somewhere around Redding or something, I think.
Though I agree with you that I may not have put it quite as tactfully as I should have, I do believe that the existance of middle-upperclass white suburban neighborhoods is a product of a racist society, because there is no equivalently advantaged community for minorities, and in no way can a person of color or a fringe group be given those advantages equally.
(I'm talking america here, if that makes a difference in how this is taken.)
P.S. I'm not entirely sure I understood everything you said, and I wasn't sure how the theory of human evolutionary development should affect my opinion (because really I do think it's an interesting point, one that I intend to learn more about sometime) so I'm sorry if some of my arguments are a little off.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: in our society, you cannot separate race from economics and culture. -- Scott, 08:45:17 02/18/02 Mon
I totally disagree.
I believe that a minority who adopted a Suburbanite culture would be quickly accepted in Sunnydale society.
Whereas people like Faith and Tara's kin would be run out on a rail.
Again, I don't see "race" as much a factor as culture. And of course economic status.
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[> [> Re: Not here too -- Rahael, 06:27:27 02/17/02 Sun
I was as stunned as Hauptmann when I read this statement. I too had never thought of it as that way before.
He has written a far more gracious reply than I would ever have managed.
Really, I'm a little depressed. And to think black/asian people get condemned for seeing 'colour' in everything!
Nothing about Joss said anything to me about someone who wanted to create an exclusionary or exclusive cultural experience. And what's this about 'white' culture? I would seriously contest that American or British culture is 'white'. Just take a hard look at popular music in both countries, for example. Culture really doesn't work that way. It doesn't have a colour. It might be racist, but it doesn't have a colour. People can't be segregated from sharing an experience. Assigning a colour to culture might seem attractive, but ultimately its meaningless. The British colonial experience and its culture might call itself white, and set its paradigms in opposition to the 'other', but really, its not 'white'. It went native so to speak.
Buffy isn't 'unreal' in the way that Narnia is 'unreal'. It has all the pain and sadness that real life entails. It isn't about 'escapism' and it isn't about escapism from real life. And it never struck me that it confines itself to deconstructing ideas about women and not about race. Buffy is about tolerance, and a lack of bigotry. And tackling patriarchy is not just about tackling 'sexism'. Its much more fundamental than that. And by the way, there happen to be a few small numbers of black people who also happen to be women. Or do we need to create a separate category for them? Does Buffy then only tackle the issues of White women? I didn't want to respond, but silence might seem like condoning the statement and hell, 99% of this board probably agrees with you but here's the 1% that doesn't.
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[> [> [> Two or three percent at least -- matching mole, 08:43:19 02/17/02 Sun
Rahael said everything I would have said, only better than I ever could have. BtVS might not explicitly address racial issues but certainly its overall message of tolerance seems applicable to everyone. It's mixture of realism and fantasy is one of its major appeals to me. While I am certainly not condemning the show, or even losing any sleep over the relative paucity of non-white roles, I also don't think the issue of race can simply be dismissed by calling it a white show or a fantasy.
I'm still mulling over the whole Sunnydale is England thing. I think that the lack of portrayal of cars, sports, and guns is in line with a lot of the rest of television. TV doesn't seem to be able to portray car travel very well (as opposed to film - probably some technical reason) so it tends not to be portrayed very often compared to the amount of time Americans (particularly in the west) actually spend in cars. Characters on TV don't seem to talk about sports unless there's a plot point involved. And don't the English talk about sports as well - just different sports? And I must say, that despite the stereotypes that many have about Americans and guns, I can count the number of guns I've seen in the U.S. (other than those in the holsters of police etc.) since I moved here almost 18 years ago on my fingers (maybe of one hand). Granted I have very little interest in guns, sports, or cars (the one unalloyed joy of moving from Arizona to Illinois was that I now can go for several days at a time without having to drive anywhere).
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[> [> [> [> I'm sort of relieved.... -- Rochefort, 09:27:47 02/17/02 Sun
I'm sort of relieved to hear that people on this board generally feel that Buffy does truly reflect a wide audience and manages to deal with diversity issues and issues of alienation in meaningful ways. I think there is a point to be taken, still, that the cast is mostly white, but I'm glad about the topic matter anyway. (I'm also frustrated, of course, by some of the other opinions expressed in this line, but this is a great place to talk about it)
When I've shown Buffy in class at my urban university to talk about gender transgression there has been no clear line between black/white male/female as to who likes the show.
So now that we've discussed ethnicity, you bring up another interesting point. You say that Buffy challenges Patriarchy. Do you think it meaningfully truly challenges it? Or just PLAYS at challenging it. But that's a question for a while different post-line. For another day.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm sort of relieved.... -- Rahael, 09:31:53 02/17/02 Sun
Happy to have the Buffy/patriarchy discussion! but just to let you know that several board members including myself and Age have discussed patriarchy and its truly meaningful and sophisticated deconstruction in Buffy in many, many threads, and in intricate detail! I don't know whether those are waiting to be archived, or still in the temporary archives on the top of the page.
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[> [> [> [> Buffy and the idea of tolerance -- Dochawk, 10:40:22 02/17/02 Sun
If there ever was a television show that promoted accepting people based on the quality of their character rather than the color of their skin, Buffy is it. She can have Spike and Clem to her birthday party after all, because they don't have objectionable character traits. During Season 4, Buffy rejects the Initiative partially because they are unable to make this distinction. Some demons are good. Some humans are evil. Buffy will choose the good demons, rather than the "evil" humans. In fact, Riley was able to overcome one of the roots of prejudice, underexposure/undereducation by getting to know Oz before he found out he was a werewolf. Once he did he risked his life for Oz. Eventually he even accepted the idea of Spike having a right to live. These are metaphors for diversity and tolerance. Yes, there is a paucity of ethnic characters (though noone mentioned Forrest), but as someone mentioned above, there is a great mix when it comes to the heros (Slayers) and their is a tremendous understanding of what Tolerance is all about.
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- Scott, 10:34:42 02/17/02 Sun
"Nothing about Joss said anything to me about someone who wanted to create an exclusionary or exclusive cultural experience."
When you create any work of fiction it is about an "exclusive cultural experience". It's about setting, etc.
For example the show "Good Times" was a sitcom about urban African Americans. Those were the characters. The Evans Family lived in Government funded Projects in Chicago's West Loop. That was the setting. It was about an exclusive cultural experience. About how people grew up and lived under that lifestyle. A story can only be about one set of cultural experiences.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a drama about surburban mostly white Americans. It is about growing up under the pressures that society has. That is an exclusive cultural experience, but one that millions of Americans have shared.
That doesn't mean that someone who hasn't shared the cultural experience of growing up white and suburban in America can't enjoy the show. From rural communities, to urban communities from England to India and beyond, people from different all different cultural backgrounds have enjoyed Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But the show is ABOUT an exclusive cultural experience. It is ABOUT growing up in a predominately white California suburban community.
A show has to be about something. It had to be set somewhere.
That's not to say that a show about predominately white suburbia is a more valid subject matter than something set Lahore before it became part of Pakistan or Living in an small town in Canada's north, but please don't say that it is a subject that has no right to be told. For millions of Americans, this is how we grew up (minus the Vampires of course). We have a story to be told, not more or less valid than any other, but valid nontheless.
Other shows tell other stories, but this one tells ours. It's not exclusionary in the sense that anyone can and do enjoy it, and may in some ways relate to parts of it. But this show is about us.
Suburban America should have a show that tells about our lives. Our lives are as valid as anyone elses.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Not here too -- LeeAnn, 20:34:57 02/17/02 Sun
I agree.
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- Hauptman, 15:34:33 02/17/02 Sun
Rahael
Thanks for your compliment regrading my graciousness in replying to the "White show" comment. I feel compelled to add that inside me there is a raving reactionary dying to stand on a table, denouncing and accusing with all the fire and flame I could muster, but that hardly ever goes over well. I just tried to keep my emotion in check. I think your response was quite civil and gracious, too. I think you made a clearer point. And I know it's hard to do when you're feeling so much. Thanks for the effort.
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[> [> [> [> Me too! -- Rahael, 01:42:56 02/18/02 Mon
I write two versions of a lot of my posts - the first one usually has to be torn up for one showing more hallmarks of sanity.
Its a pity that these thread had to be highjacked by trolls. Though to be honest, Lisa/Scott has been visiting these boards in so many different incarnations for so long, they really are regulars in a strange sort of way.
I like to think that their attempts to sow division and discord are a backhanded complement to the civility of this board.
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- yuri, 03:53:01 02/18/02 Mon
"Really, I'm a little depressed. And to think black/asian people get condemned for seeing 'colour' in everything!"
I take this to mean that you think color is too often focused on, whoever may be doing the focusing. Well, I disagree, I think that in this culture color _is_ in everything and should be constantly recognized if we wish to ammend the issue of racial inequality. I would argue that upon meeting a person, your perception of them will inevitably be influenced somewhat by their race, whether or not you know it. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "Culture really doesn't work that way. It doesn't have a colour," because to the extent that there is a dominant race that monopolizes the power of a country/culture and to whom most media and entertianment is directed towards, I do think that cultures have colors.
You mentioned a few posts above that most of your Buffy-watching friends are minorities. That really hasn't been my experience, and I admit it makes me very happy to hear that, because I really do find Buffy to be a "white show." Not as white as others (I _have_ to reference friends here b/c it's just so perfect) but white, nevertheless. I guess my perspective is that if it doesn't deal with race (and if it does deal with other serious issues - metaphorically or not), it's white, because white people are the only people who have the luxury of not dealing with race.
However, I do understand the idea that BtVS is largely about groups shoved into the "margins" of society, and that that inderectly relates to racism, thereby allowing people of color to identify with the characters on the show. I have never really felt this connection myself, so it's good to hear about it.
Oh, but one last thing.. I /do/ believe, though there are many similarities and parallels, and the two groups can no doubt work together to strengthen each other, that the struggle of white women and the struggle of women of color are very different. Does Buffy apply to both? I haven't decided yet.
I almost always agree with everything you say, Rahael, so it's interesting not to. :)
Oh, and P.S. - I /think/ it was you who denounced Scott/Lisa, along with WW, and I want to say thanks to people who do that so I don't spend too much energy responding to what I assume are several different posters.
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[> [> [> [> Culture and Race -- Rahael, 04:28:11 02/18/02 Mon
Thanks for your comments yuri, and for making me think harder about my earlier post.
My little aside about colour was a sarcastic one. As an Asian woman, when I do complain about racism, I'm told that I have a chip on my shoulder. Told that 'we' are always focusing on race when in fact, those who I am accusing are 'colour blind'. I forget about my colour most times actually, because I grew up in a different country where most people were the same colour as me. I realise it with a shock when I get jabbed in the ribs as I walk along the streets, or get spat at.
Its true that I would prefer BtVS to do at least one show specifically and directly undercutting preconceptions of race. I think Angel has tackled this far far more often.
But there has been *no* other show I have ever appreciated as much as Buffy, and appreciated as a young, black/asian woman. Buffy may be white, but I can identify with her choices. At the end of the day, we have more in common than not.
As for the culture colour comment - what I meant to say was that culture does not belong to one group of people. It's about the interaction between human beings, and culture is a system of ideas and shared understanding. Culture in apartheid South Africa may have been totally, and inherently racist, but to say it was white is to ignore the fact that its created by the domination of one set of people by another. Thus, both groups are implicated. The majority of black south africa should not be excluded from its culture because the white people were in power. That would be just what the apartheid wanted. That's what it sought to achieve. And the two groups were not segregated totally, no matter how much the racists wanted to. The culture of South Africa contains both the oppression of black people, and their spirited response. The culture of the British Empire, belonged both to the oppressors and the oppressed. I claim it. Its my heritage, just or unjust. It set the parameters of my life, and created my cultural background. So is my culture white? Is my culture now white that I now have assimilated into modern Britain? My culture is both Sri Lankan and colonial and British. Saying that culture has a colour is thus meaningless to me. When I call myself black/asian however, that is a strong cultural/political statement. That says something about my cultural outlook. Still doesn't give my ideas and world view a colour.
By saying that the culture of Britain is white is to fall for the lie that is told by certain people in this country who tell people like me 'not to destroy the Anglo-Saxon homogeneity' of this country. Culture isn't formed by the establishment. Its formed by the interaction of groups and individuals in society. Therefore, it's about the interaction of race, gender and class. It's the forum where the establishment's values can get subverted, where the powerless can win the war of ideas, at least.
But I agree that culture contains sub-cultures, and those subcultures could probably be defined by a strong conciousness of race, whether its 'white power' or 'black is beautiful'. But that's a slightly different emphasis.
Buffy belongs to me too. Not just subarbun White America. I don't appreciate it passively, I interact with it. It gets incorporated into my world view.
I'm interested in the point that the troll made about it being suburban America's story. Would like some of the other regulars to comment. Is it? And if so, what in particular does it tackle that distinguishes the white middle class suburban experience from the experiences of other groups?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- LeeAnn, 05:29:21 02/18/02 Mon
"I'm interested in the point that the troll made about it being suburban America's story. Would like some of the other regulars to comment. Is it? And if so, what in particular does it tackle that distinguishes the white middle class suburban experience from the experiences of other groups?" - Rahael
I promised myself I wouldn't make any other comment in this thread because I seem to stick my foot in my mouth up to my knee, but here goes again. Let me apologize in advance if I offend anyone.
But...I didn't find those comments about suburbia to be a troll. I agreed with them. Does that make me a racist?
I think what distinguishes the white middle class suburban experience from the experience of other groups is that race doesn't have to be addressed. It doesn't exist. It can be ignored. Other forms of exclusion exist and can be painful but, in that culture, race is not one of them.
When I discuss movies and TV shows with black friends and coworkers I find that, whenever possible, they prefer those that have a black lead or even a totally black cast. Does that make them racist? Does it make me racist because I don't? If a black person can prefer "Martin" (a black sitcom where whites are as scarse as hen's teeth) why is it wrong for a white person to prefer, say, the sitcom "Roseanne", which had very few black characters, none of them major? (Myself I only watch Buffy these days and and the Scifi channel.)
But if I were of another race I would probably feel excluded by shows like Buffy. But I think to make Buffy ABOUT race would change it into a different show.
Although if ME keeps making me mad by treating Spike bad (been reading spoilers) that might be something I would favor!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now that I think of it... -- LeeAnn, 05:36:26 02/18/02 Mon
Now that I think of it, I am excluded too. I'm nothing like the people on Buffy. My cheekbones won't cut glass. I can't do a flying kick. But even though I am NOT them, would NOT fit in with them, I still like them, enjoy watching them, and don't want them to change. I don't need to see a me-surrogate on BtVS to enjoy it.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now that I think of it... -- Hauptman, 06:35:36 02/18/02 Mon
On second thought, don't respond.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Hauptman, 06:32:14 02/18/02 Mon
LeAnn I hear points of view like yours when I speak with my white co-workers. And while I understand where you and they are coming from, I don't agree. The problem I find is that there is so much to mix into this soup that ultimately you end up with something impossible to digest. I will try to address some of the points you have repeatedly made in an effort to have a dialog. I am not interested in attacking you.
"I think what distinguishes the white middle class suburban experience from the experience of other groups is that race doesn't have to be addressed. It doesn't exist. It can be ignored. Other forms of exclusion exist and can be painful but, in that culture, race is not one of them."
I think that condition you describe above is a false comfort level created by and maintained by racism itself. How do you think the "white middle class suburban experience" came to exist?
"When I discuss movies and TV shows with black friends and coworkers I find that, whenever possible, they prefer those that have a black lead or even a totally black cast. Does that make them racist?"
Well, no. I expect there are some black people who are racist, but the preference to see people who are ostensibly like themselves in movies and television is not, in itself, an act of racism due to the rarity of the image. I think that white people in general have trouble understanding this as images of white people are the norm. Even now the vast majority of movies, television shows, commercials, magazine ads and cartoons convey images of white people. And I think your reaction to that statement might be "what is wrong with that?" I am not addressing that at this time. But while you feel yourself preparing to defend your right to that fantastic abundance of represnetation, you might wonder what it would be like to not have it, and then you will understand why a black person might want to watch a show where their people have the entire range of human representation rather than a single character whose very existence will be nit picked into oblivion. If you hoard all of the images for yourself, you can't blame people for finding their entertainment somewhere else. All-black shows are a result of racism, not an expression of it.
"Does it make me racist because I don't?"
I don't think it does. What makes you racist (if you are one)is not that you don't watch black shows, it's that you want to maintain a separation. To make an illustration, it's not that you want to push "them" out of town, but since that has already been done for you, you want to keep "them" out.
"If a black person can prefer "Martin" (a black sitcom where whites are as scarse as hen's teeth) why is it wrong for a white person to prefer, say, the sitcom "Roseanne", which had very few black characters, none of them major? (Myself I only watch Buffy these
days and and the Scifi channel.)
But if I were of another race I would probably feel excluded by shows like Buffy. But I think to make Buffy ABOUT race
would change it into a different show."
I am black and Buffy is my favorite show on television. Ever. I think that what you mean is that you think Buffy 'should not' be enjoyable by people who are not white. I think that you are projecting your racism on other races, (i.e. If I were black I wouldn't want to have anything to do with this white thing. Which is actually how you want it to be. This is an all white neighborhood. Why would a black want to live here? Surely they want to live with their own kind...the way we do. I do not think all white people think this way, but some do to justify their feelings about 'keeping it white.'
Hence your coment about it becoming a different show. Your comfort level suffering is your major concern. And I understand that. But maintaining your comfort level is not what we are all here for. And the fact that others, not in your exclusive club, have sought some of that comfort does not make them like you and does not justify continued exclusion.
I do not think that you are a bad person. I understand how you could have come to some of your conclusions. But I respectfully submit that you are very, very wrong. I hope you will respond to this.
Best to you.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Excellent response -- Rahael, 07:09:14 02/18/02 Mon
And far more coherent and hardhitting than mine. Not to mention less spittle-flecked too.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Scott, 09:04:09 02/18/02 Mon
I think "making it about race" would ruin the show.
The thing about Suburbia is in ways it can be quite accepting, and in other ways it can be quite intolerant.
I don't believe anyone in Sunnydale would have a problem with a minority moving in next to them. In fact in suburbia this has been occuring over the years.
The problem would occur when cultural norms are shaken. But again, that would be the case regardless of the color of the skin of the person challenging the norms.
Why do you think Faith was treated so harshly by the Scooby gang? Because she wasn't like them. Who says 5 by 5 in suburbia? Had Faith been an Asian or a Black from suburbia, they would have embraced her, and they all would have become great friends hanging out at the mall and such. But because she was Urban from the wrong side of the tracks, they made fun of her when she said stuff like 5 by 5.
They had never met anyone like Faith before, so they didn't know what to do with her. And Faith couldn't get into their whole suburbia lifestyle, so she was out of the loop.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Rahael, 06:53:14 02/18/02 Mon
The comments made by Scott are irrelevant to my calling him a troll. I was simply calling him/her a troll because he/she is. This person has made numerous visits to the board pushing the same old buttons. And I didn't call him a racist. As far as I know, troll is not equivalent to racism, the last time I checked.
You said:
"I think what distinguishes the white middle class suburban experience from the experience of other groups is that race doesn't have to be addressed. It doesn't exist. It can be ignored. Other forms of exclusion exist and can be painful but, in that culture, race is not one of them."
So the only thing about suburban America that is different is race? Don't middle class black people live in suburban America? Or do they all live in ghettos? What about Jewish people? Do issues of race and racism not concern them? My Jewish friend gets as concerned and upset about racism in Britain because the people who beat me up are likely to find her just as objectionable. Yes, perhaps issues of race doesn't have to matter to 'white' people - a huge umbrella term which is meaningless as a scientific category anyway. In Britain, white Eastern Europeans are targeted by racists too. At that moment, myself and a Croat/Serb are united by a common experience, being taunted or being told to 'go home'.
And yes, probably the reason why white people kept driving on while I was having my head smashed against a wall was because 'race' didn't concern them. When they engage in casual racism, I suppose race doesn't concern them. Turning your face away, pretending not to see, keeping away troubling issues by ignoring them or mouthing platitudes about civil rights while doing your best to make sure no one who isn't white moves next door to you is not 'not being concerned with race'.
How can issues of race not concern white people? Does the existence/abolition of slavery not concern the enslavers? Did apartheid not concern white South Africa. Or did they just do it all by accident?
Actually, I am proud to know many middle class white (British though) people who are as concerned about race and racism as I am. Perhaps I just have higher expectations about their capacity to be troubled by injustice and cruelty than you do. Perhaps they realise that the thugs who don't like me are likely to curtail their freedom in other ways, perhaps they realise that prejudice and injustice and racism corrode away the foundations of democracy. Perhaps they actually know that you can build high security gates to keep out the powerless and the undesirable, but in doing so you build a mental, ideological and emotional prison for yourself.
And what I found most troubling about your earlier comments was that these were the implications as understood by me:
"Buffy is a white show". - implication, made by white people for white people. This is a discussion board about a white American show. Have I, as a non-white, non American have anything to contribute? Should I even be on this board?
I don't look at works of art or culture and think 'white!' 'black!'. Should I throw away Proust and start reading Salman Rushdie, who I hate? Should I abandon my beloved Austen for Zadie Smith? No where have I argued that Buffy should start being 'about race'. It is about the human condition, and thereby tackles issues of alienation and powerlessness, suffering, compassion, tolerance, and the fundamental importance of not judging people by their appearance. And that all encompasses my experience of racism. The points you make below about cheekbones and the like, I don't think are comparable to the lack of an explicit tackling of race in the show. But perhaps you think that cheekbones and one of the greatest injustices present in human society are comparable. Your points accord Buffy an intellectual and emotional poverty which I don't recognise.
If as you say, Buffy is deliberately excluding race as a consideration of white America, then ME are no better than the complacent and self satisfied citizens of Sunnydale, covering up the evidence of the darkness which the town is built on. ME go out of their way to argue against such intellectual dishonesty, and argue for Buffy's innate sense of compassion and justice.
(And I don't really feel like writing another version, more civil and gracious than this. Apologies to the board. If anyone thinks I should lighten up, or take this more humorously, I have to say that my hands are trembling with anger as I write this. If regulars think that this is unfortunate, and we shouldn't discuss such emotive issues on this board, I'd have to say that I would have to consider taking a break from the board, because I would find it difficult to keep silent, especially with the deafening silence of everyone else - with a few honourable exceptions. I am a passionate person and I do get worked up by such things - and it can be a bad thing. I can totally understand why this might be uncomfortable and bad for our little community. Plus, I should probably do a bit more actual work during my work time from now on.)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Hauptman, 07:19:04 02/18/02 Mon
Rahael
For god's sake, stay. Or at least for mine. I was about to pop a seal over this issue, too. While I pride myself on giving everyone an ear and thoughtful consideration, I am at a point where the combination of casual racism combined with deflection displayed here is deeply troubling to me. I think we (you, me, Yuri and a few others) have a responsibility to stay on the board, though. Bottom line: we have a right to live in this neighborhood, too. And I will defend your right to my last breath. Let them come.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well said, Hauptmann -- Wisewoman, 14:37:01 02/18/02 Mon
I've tried before, without much success, to address the issue of "casual racism combined with deflection" that arises whenever the issue of ethnicity is raised in regard to BtVS. I've never called anyone here a racist yet, but I've come close.
I've always appreciated MEs ability to use vampires and demons as metaphor, I just can't understand why they don't address the situation head-on, along with the metaphor. Your comments and Rahael's have made this a little clearer for me, and maybe it is okay for BtVS to be the way it is, but not if it encourages the kind of passive complacency that we see among some of the fans.
I wish I had more time and could be more coherent, but I wanted to add my support for Rahael, and extend it to you and to Yuri.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- LadyStarlight, 07:29:02 02/18/02 Mon
Stay. Please stay. I haven't commented much on this topic simply because I have trouble organizing my own thoughts.
But I back you and Hauptman one hundred percent. You are bringing a grace to this discussion that, frankly, I didn't think was possible when it started out.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- LeeAnn, 07:47:31 02/18/02 Mon
I apologize for upsetting anyone and will make no further comments on the subject.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Scott, 08:37:22 02/18/02 Mon
"Buffy is a white show". - implication, made by white people for white people. This is a discussion board about a white American show. Have I, as a non-white, non American have anything to contribute? Should I even be on this board?"
It is a show about a white American suburbanite (Californian) who would be more comfortable shopping at the mall, but instead is forced to be the protector of good against the forces of evil.
Do you have something to contribute? Many of the themes of Buffy the Vampire slayer about growing up are universal, so I would say, Yes, quite definitely.
But having not grown up in America suburbia perhaps some of the situations you wouldn't identify with or understand as well. Just like if I saw a show about Bosnia, I might enjoy it, I might identify with some of it, but some of it I just wouldn't get since "I haven't been there".
Even I who am not a Californian (though I am a suburbanite) can't relate to this show as well as someone from the valley. Doesn't prevent me from enjoying it though.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- manwitch, 11:36:00 02/18/02 Mon
"No where have I argued that Buffy should start being 'about race'. It is about the human condition, and thereby tackles issues of alienation and powerlessness, suffering, compassion, tolerance, and the fundamental importance of not judging people by their appearance. And that all encompasses my experience of racism.
--Rahael
You remain, Rahael, remarkably insightful even as your hands tremble.
I hope it will not be lost on people that, along with the passion of your response, you have indicated why Buffy is as appealing as it is to its (as far as I can tell) multi-ethnic audience. Everyone I know, of any ethnicity, that watches the show, finds it their favorite. The only exceptions are a couple of, well, bigotted people who are willing to acknowledge that it has some nice T&A.
If Buffy is a "white show," it would be to the degree that white is the representative ethnicity of the power structures and hierarchies that Buffy consistently opposes and undermines.
In academia, one of the big intellectual arguments around racism is the way that the white male has assumed the available "subject positions" from which people in our culture can speak. For example, one does not have to specify a white male speaking, it is assumed. Our culture and language does not require the specifying of masculinity, it requires the specifying of feminity. This is one of the most insidious aspects of cultural racism (and sexism) in that it alienates non white non males from themselves. They are a sort of "required" to speak from subject-positions from which they themselves are "the other." It is also this fact that makes racism and sexism so intimately connected: the power structures and hierarchies that perpetuate racism and sexism are in large measure the same.
As Rahael eloquently points out, Buffy is against those structures and for humanity.
Also, I would further point out that Buffy isn't even supposed to be a white girl. She's a metaphor. She may look like a white girl on screen, but she's a pointer to YOU. The viewer. Whatever you are.
It would be a garagantuan mistake for whites and non-whites, males and females, to view her as some sort of role model for how those "like her" should behave. She's no more a role model than Barkley. She IS you. Not like you. IS. I'm not female, so the point of her, to me at any rate, can't possibly be female-specific. She is a gendered metaphor, but she is not sex-specific. The same would be true of her whiteness. Its not a lesson plan for white girls. Its about how to maintain humanity under any circumstances. And one of the ways she does it is to constantly oppose the forms of power and authority that divide, alienate and oppress. Perhaps some don't feel that is explicitly anti-racist enough, but I don't see any other show ever doing it any better. Could be my own limitation.
Most all Buffy fans, I would think, would have no problem with any sort of character coming in and being any sort of role in Buffy's life, so long as its written well and true to the show's heart.
That said, the argument of whether or not the show, as a late 20th early 21st century institution, has an obligation to be more representative in its casting is another issue. While I love the show as it is, my view on the question would probably be, what's the harm in broadening the image?
So, to a degree I'm just repeating what Rahael said, but in more long-winded academic language. Sorry to bore. But this is "key" to what this show is doing and what its about and why it appeals. To me, its fundamental to any useful discussion of race and ethnicity on the show.
I will end by saying that people on this board, well meaning people, will be in different places on the subjects of racism and sexism, with different levels of experience and recognition, just as some people on this board aren't sure what a metaphor is and won't have any idea what I'm talking about when I say "subject positions." Bringing them into the conversation will always be more productive than excluding them (monkeypants excepted) no matter how much it might make the hands shake. That's not a jibe at you at all, its another request that you stick around and continue to comment, even when you're furious.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Lisa, 11:43:50 02/18/02 Mon
"Also, I would further point out that Buffy isn't even supposed to be a white girl. She's a metaphor. She may look like a white girl on screen, but she's a pointer to YOU. The viewer. Whatever you are."
Buffy is supposed to be a Valley Girl For Sure. A pom pom waving, mall shopping Valley Girl. You see the type at the mall all the time, with their giggling and their teenspeak.
I went to school with several Buffy's, along with several Cordialia's, and all too many Harmony's.
That she was able to break out of her own stereotype gives hope to us all. But I have never considered her "me". I was never a cheerleader, nor the most popular. Nor did I really try to be.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Rahael? (O/T-well, not really) -- dubdub, 14:25:38 02/18/02 Mon
It's me, sweetie. I know you wrote several hours ago, but I just got a chance to read this now, because I'm so busy at work--are you okay now? My main concern is that this discussion not force you to relive situations and emotions that no one should have to go through even once, never mind over and over again.
Can you e-mail me when you get a minute and let me know you're alright...I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so I'll try to do that. Would deep breaths help?
Sending you love and support,
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Casual Racism -- Rufus, 18:00:16 02/18/02 Mon
"Buffy is a white show". - implication, made by white people for white people. This is a discussion board about a white American show. Have I, as a non-white, non American have anything to contribute? Should I even be on this board?
BTVS may seem like a white show in that the main cast members are white, but it's exposure of how it feels to be marginalized speakes to everyone. I said before that demons are a way to talk about all the isms without getting personal. People aren't always good at digesting ideas that are in their face because it brings up all the negative emotions that cause them to again shove all that stuff inside where it will be safe and under the rug.
Rahael is talking about feelings of being the "demon" in the real world. Being marginalized because of the shade of her sking, the country of her origin. Having to work harder, longer, better to get any recognition. Being invisible to white people who don't feel comfortable admitting that such ugliness as racism still exists after all this time. People want to be Politically correct, which I take to be just another way of hiding from the truth of the feelings that Rah speaks of. It's that symbolic way of turning one's head while an atrocity occurs.
How can issues of race not concern white people? Does the existence/abolition of slavery not concern the enslavers? Did apartheid not concern white South Africa. Or did they just do it all by accident?
The fact that slavery exists at all should make us all uncomfortable no matter who is the enslaver. In all of us exists that capacity to ignore the humanity in someone else and make them a thing. The allure of turning ones head beckons all the time. In Season four, with the Initiative, it was in our face, demons were just animals,not because that was a proven fact, but because it was assumed. The demons they performed vivisection on were representations of us, the people we could become if we were no longer valued. That point was brought home to Riley and the audience when Oz turned back into a person. Did they stop what they were doing, no, because they had already categorized him as an animal, something to be experimented on....animals have no feelings, no rights, don't matter, aren't us. The Initiative is what we can become if we ever forget that we are capable of making people things, the other, not us. Yet we may do that every day without even knowing it. Think twice before you think Rahael has a chip on her shoulder, because the pain of exclusion she feels is brought home to her in tiny, and not so tiny ways all the time, without a break...ever. When we decide that to consider her feelings makes it too uncomfortable to dredge up our own, does nothing more than confirm her doubts.
To even begin to touch the surface of healing the wounds of racism we first have to acknowledge it may exist in ourselves. This thread was just a reminder that just because we don't think it applies to us, we may be allowing it to go on.
Don't go Rah, just because people like me didn't reply at first doesn't mean we weren't thinking about it.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> re -- yuri, 01:01:42 02/19/02 Tue
First off: thanks, Rahael, for being very alive.
Note: long... turns into more of an introspection so my advice is to stop whenever I stop making sense. For real, I'm not a chronic self-depricator, but this post is seriously flawed.
I want to respond to things from this post and the one above, if you're able to whether the subject for a little longer.
First, I knew your aside was sarcastic. Believe me I've seen many a person pull the "chip on your shoulder" thing with someone. Rereading my post, I didn't at all say what I meant. I just wanted to establish that in your opinion LeeAnn was considering things too much in terms of race, so I could respond to that.
I agree with your evocative analysis of culture, and I think our disagreement must have just been in what we each meant by using the word "culture."
The point of LeeAnn's that I did agree with was her point that "what distinguishes the white middle class suburban experience from the experience of other groups is that race doesn't have to be addressed. It doesn't exist. It can be ignored. Other forms of exclusion exist and can be painful but, in that culture, race is not one of them." I didn't interpret it the way that you did, because to me this is saying that though middle class whites are obviously /completely/ involved in racism and have huge responsibilities to the issue, they, since they are the dominant or the agent, have the option of being oblivious to it all. (I was gonna talk about subject positions, but manwitch already covered it, thank god.)
What I'm wrestling with now, with many sincere thanks to Rahael and Hauptman, is the idea that a show can transcend its, well, its external racism, I suppose (in that it essentially has an all white cast). I can't really wrap my mind around it all right now... so many emotions...
In response to "Buffy is a white show" you say:
"- implication, made by white people for white people. This is a discussion board about a white American show. Have I, as a non-white, non American have anything to contribute? Should I even be on this board?"
(btw - that was of your many comments that made me shake and left my eyes sore by the end of your post. You're not the only person on this board whose emotions lie near the surface. [And proud of it! Anyone who thinks you should "lighten up" can just consider themselves bitchslapped by me. I very rarely desire _less_ emotive issues, and I assume others feel the same. I mean isn't that really the whole point?])
and Hauptman says;
"I am black and Buffy is my favorite show on television. Ever. I think that what you mean is that you think Buffy 'should not' be enjoyable by people who are not white. I think that you are projecting your racism on other races, (i.e. If I were black I wouldn't want to have anything to do with this white thing...)'"
and these ring in my ears and I need to go drink some tea or something. I wish I could verbalize what I'm thinking, because I don't think I've made any indication. And I'm worried people will think I'm thinking something I'm not.
It's because I actually would have agreed a few posts ago that BtVS is a "white show." I mean, the general cast is white and I don't sit through an episode without noticing that, however slightly. I feel that it is set in the context of a "white culture", - well what the hell is white culture, right? After those two comments, it's obvious to me that saying BtVS's a "white show" undermines the appreciation of it by other races. Should we criticize the casting decisions? Is ME off the hook because their high quality shows are able to reach beyond the race barrier, and they're probably just doing what they gotta do for their survival? Does it make a difference that Buffy is being shown in an era where television is prejudiced and segregated -- meaning is it important to be hyper aware of race because of the context rather than the actual show? Or is race really not a barrier if it's treated correctly? Does it matter that some people _are_ alienated by the whiteness of Buffy? It depends on the individual and their relationship to race. And then is there a majority opinion? Does it matter if there's a majority?
I need sleep. I apologize if this kind of post is totally against board etiquette. I need to keep a journal or something..
And again, Rahael, thank you for your honesty and your willingness to show your wounds. I shall try to take it as inspiration for my own choices in the future.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Darby, 06:44:36 02/18/02 Mon
Excellent, just great.
Can you tell that I totally agree with your definitions of culture and subculture?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Scott, 09:57:37 02/18/02 Mon
I have no idea what you mean about "troll". This is the first week I have posted on this board, and considering the attitude of some of the feedback, I think I am not coming back, but I stand by the statement that Buffy being suburban America's story.
Too much is being made about the "White" part (though I guess I understand that) but the truth is that until recently suburbia was predominately White. But I don't think that the "lack of racial issues" in surburbia makes surburbia racist as there is no attempt to keep others out. But for many of us, we grew up in a one-culture world. Where minorities were indeed few in number.
How does distinguish the middle class suburban experience from the experiences of other groups?
In many ways they are similar. Take an urban setting like "Boston Public" and compare it to "Sunnydale High" and there would be more similarities than differences. Or "Smallville High" (a more rural setting).
Being in the "middle" in all respects (economically, etc) means that one still need to struggle to find money for college, yet college isn't out of reach for them. I think what makes suburbia different in some respects than say the urban and rural experience is the overwhelming need people feel to make a "perfect life". To have that white picket fence, to keep up with the Jones. People want to think "it can't happen here".
And when it does "happen here" like it happened in Springfield, Oregon, or Littletown, Col people have no coping mechanism. The house of cards all fall down upon them.
I don't know if I can exactly say in a few sentences what makes Suburbia different. Every experience is different. Suburbia like every other subculture has it's good, bad, indifferent, and ugly aspects.
Getting back to the 'white' part, I really don't see it as racial. But in Suburbia there is a great desire to conform. To make sure that everyone cuts their grass, etc. I say if I have to sum up Suburbia in two words it would be conformity and safety. Don't like people who make waves regardless of race.
I think another thing that is different between Suburbia and say Urban areas is the lack of identity. You say Los Angeles and everyone knows where you are from. But you say "Sunnydale"? And there are unique things that makes Los Angeles different from San Diego, or New York. But Sunnydale? What makes Sunnydale different from Forest Grove, or Mountain View, or Lillyfield?
Of course, some of us know the answer to that. Sunnydale has the hellmouth.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- LeeAnn, 10:29:28 02/18/02 Mon
In the words of Rush's "Subdivisions"
Conform or be cast out,
Be cool or be cast out
Sprawling on the fringes of the city
In geometric order
An insulated border
In between the bright lights
And the far unlit unknown
Growing up it all seems so one-sided
Opinions all provided
The future pre-decided
Detached and subdivided
In the mass production zone
Nowhere is the dreamer or the misfit so alone
Subdivisions
In the high school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out
Subdivisions
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
Any escape might help to smooth the unattractive truth
But the suburbs have no charms to soothe the restless dreams of youth
Drawn like moths we drift into the city
The timeless old attraction
Cruising for the action
Lit up like a firefly
Just to feel the living night
Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights
Subdivisions
In the high school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out
Subdivisions
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
Any escape might help to smooth the unattractive truth
But the suburbs have no charms to soothe the restless dreams of youth
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Lisa, 11:34:55 02/18/02 Mon
There seems to be an emptiness in suburbia. Perhaps you find that in other places as well, but that has been my experience with suburbia.
Still though given the alternatives of urban decay and rural isolation, suburbia has it's attractions. Can't complain.
Nope, can't complain. Not my right. It's just another day in paradise. Billions of people would give anything just to be where I am right now.
Well, off to take my prozac.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Fred, 10:11:08 02/18/02 Mon
I do think one can "focus too much on race".
I don't think it helps bringing racial issues to the forefont as it puts people on the defensive and forces them to stop dealing with you as an individual.
Until we can stop seeing people as "races" and instead see them as unique individuals, racism will continue.
As long as there are people who are willing to use "the atomic bomb" everytime some personal interaction doesn't go the way they think it should, racism will continue.
If you let people get to know you, instead of be afraid of you, the racial issue would be worked out in the framework of personal friendship instead of some cultural crusade.
Let people get to know you as an individual and they will learn to appreciate your culture as well. Walk around with a chip on your shoulder and they will always be wary of you as the "Other".
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Spikesbitch, 13:54:40 02/18/02 Mon
"Walk around with a chip on your shoulder and they will always be wary of you as the Other"
The idea that if you are friendly people will see beneath appearances and you will be accepted is a nice idea in theory but in reality there are some people who will never accept people they see as "different" from them in regards to sexual preference, gender, racial identity etc. I find it offensive that you suggest that certain people are not accepted because they have chips on their shoulder. You seem to be blaming racial minorities for having attitude problems and seeing the entire majority culture as accepting if given the chance. Not always the case!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Fred, 20:49:07 02/18/02 Mon
"I find it offensive that you suggest that certain people are not accepted because they have chips on their shoulder. You seem to be blaming racial minorities for having attitude problems and seeing the entire majority culture as accepting if given the chance. Not always the case!"
Well I find the exact opposite offensive. That you can't recognize that many people do have chips on the shoulder. That many people just wait to be culturally offended so they can lash out and blame everything bad that has ever happened to them on racism.
What is harder for a person to accept? That people don't like them because they are of a certain race, or that people simply don't like them.
It is easier to blame it on your race (it's their fault since they are racists) then to blame it on yourself (people simply don't like me because of who I am).
And it is really tough in forming a personal relationship with someone, if one person has to always worry that something they might say or do to that person will be interpreted as racism. Most people wouldn't want to take that risk. So they avoid the minority. Which the minority can use as justification that they were right all along.
It's a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Instead, it would be much better to allow people to approach you as an individual. Most people come into relations with baggage (chips) regardless of race, but in other cases finds ways of working it through. If you let people learn about you as an individual instead of making it a big political crusade, you will in the end find that "understanding" you CLAIM that you are seeking.
That said though, I think the reason the Scobbies were not that accepting of Faith, was due to the fact she was African American. It was really racist of them to be so cold to her, especially Buffy.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Scott, 10:50:44 02/18/02 Mon
"As an Asian woman, when I do complain about racism, I'm told that I have a chip on my shoulder. "
I find it quite interesting that no one addressed how people would have felt about the Scoobies treatment of Cordelia and vice versa had a black actress protrayed her.
Perhaps sometimes people really don't like You. Perhaps it is You they don't like.
"Buffy belongs to me too. Not just suburban White America. I don't appreciate it passively, I interact with it. It gets incorporated into my world view. "
Buffy belongs to everyone who enjoys the program
But don't try to change it into something it isn't.
For example. Harry Potter is written by an English person, about English people, for English people. But that doesn't stop millions of children from throughout the world from enjoying it.
I love the books and have incorporated some of it into my world view. But some of the details, as an American I just don't get.
For example, what is Marmite? How do you pronounce Hermione? Who is "Father Christmas"? When they talk about the Quidditch World Cup is that like the Super Bowl of Quidditch?
Again, not being of English culture doesn't stop me from enjoying the books, but if I was British I would identify with it, appreciatiate it, understand it just a bit better than I do as an American.
Harry Potter is about the British. It's about them, not about me. It's not about life in America. It is about life in Great Britain. But there are things in it that are universal.
I would never want Harry Potter to become "Americanized". Being about British culture is part of what gives it its charm. Just like I assume that lovers of Buffy wouldn't want it to move away from its suburban Californian setting. For that is what Buffy is about.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- matching mole, 11:42:08 02/18/02 Mon
This is going to be a long-winded post and the position I'm placing it on the thread is somewhat random as it relates to a large number of other posts. Here goes.
1. First I would like to urge Rahael to stick around both because of her highly valued Buffy/Angel commentary and because I think she is being too hard on herself re the tone of her responses which always strike me as measured and well-reasoned. Go Rah!
2. I would like to agree with Darby that care should be used when applying emotionally loaded terms such as racist. While I might agree with Yuri's thesis that suburban America might be considered 'racist' in the sense that racial identity influences social interactions I think that the blanket application of the term racist is likely to reinforce existing social attitudes rather than alter them. The only people who are likely to consider themselves racists are either hard-core bigots or liberals with a heavy dose of guilt. Calling people such a loaded term when they don't think of themselves as racist is more likely to lead to alienation than a reappraisal of attitudes.
3. The conflation of race and culture is very unfortunate. Comparing myself to Rahael will only accentuate her point. I am, genetically, as British as you could possibly hope for, being 100% English and Scottish in ancestry. My ancestors emigrated to Canada at various points between the 1850s and 1910. However, much as it embarrasses an anglophile like myself to admit it, I have never been to Britain (hoping to get around to going some day soon). That means that no matter how many British novels and films and television shows I watch there is an immense amount of British culture about which I know nothing. I'm reminded of this every time I watch the 'Vicar of Dibley' and I miss some fraction of the jokes. Yet I'm sure that some people would consider me more genuinely British than her simply because of my appearance and my solidly Anglo-Saxon last name. Ridiculous.
4. There have been several spirited and excellent comments about the major theme of tolerance running through the BtVS and AtS shows so I feel no need to pursue them further other than just saying 'me to'. However I would like to enlarge upon a couple of issues that relate specifically to the portrayal of race and/or culture in books, films, TV, etc.
5. Race remains a serious problem in much of the world, by which I mean that opportunity and general life experience are, to a significant extent affected by race. My perception of these problems has been shaped by my experiences. I was born and raised in relatively small communities and non-white persons were simply not part of my day to day experience. My initial (long term) experiences with people of colour were with very small numbers of fellow students in high school and university. At this point I had a relatively simplistic idea of what racial injustice involved. It meant being deliberately unjust to people of colour as individuals (e.g. not giving them jobs). Solving it seemed simple - stop being mean and unjust. Then I moved to the south side of Chicago and for four years lived in an affluent mixed-race enclave surrounded by poverty-stricken and almost exclusively African-American neighborhoods. Something that had seemed so simple became very complicated really fast. I saw reactions in myself and other well-meaning people that I didn't really like. I saw that the effects of history are not going to vanish overnight. And so on.
Life in the suburbs often does not afford the same perspective. And that's where culture can play a really valuable role. Most of the people watching 'Friends', 'Will and Grace' or 'Mad About You' have never spent much time, if any, in Manhattan. I've never been to Manhattan at all but I am sure that these shows do not in any way reflect reality. Now I'm not arguing that every show on TV has to deal with racial issues, far from it. What I am arguing is that there is an increasingly pervasive tendency on television to present a vision of American life that is consistent with the racial worldview of white suburban America even when the show isn't set there. The one exception to this rule are the workplace dramas: ER, NYPD Blue, etc. I don't tend to watch those shows so I can't comment on them. BtVS seems, in this respect, only too typical of Hollywood television (as much as it transcends it in other ways). To reiterate I don't think that BtVS has been racially insensitive and it certainly has had a number of minor roles for racial minorities but it seems pretty much part of the current Hollywood mainstream in terms of ignoring race.
6. Finally I would like to argue from a completely different perspective. Most of the discussion of BtVS on this board (not surprisingly given the board's name) tends to focus on big picture issues: symbolism, philosophical insights, moral issues. I enjoy all that or else I wouldn't be here. However I also enjoy books, films, and TV for more specific and worldly things. Reading a novel written by someone from a completely different culture may provide me general insight into the human condition but it also provides me with specific insight into a particular culture, a particular time and place. I've always been confused when people say that a book or a film was too foreign for them. To me that is an added bonus, helping to feed my insatiable curiousity (at least I hope it's insatiable). Very little television (as opposed to books and films) really satisfies that curiousity - setting often seems very abstract and blanded out. One of the great appeals of the early BtVS was that it seemed to really capture what it was like to be a high school student. However the fairly monoracial makeup of Sunnydale has always seemed a jarring note to me compared to my own experience of southern California but then again I've only spent a day in Santa Barbara.
This doesn't mean that I don't understand the appeal of fiction (printed or otherwise) that appeals to one's own cultural biases. If there was a show about expatriate Canadians living in the US I would watch it religiously, unless it was utterly horrible.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Culture and Race -- Wisewoman, 15:12:17 02/18/02 Mon
This doesn't mean that I don't understand the appeal of fiction (printed or otherwise) that appeals to one's own cultural biases. If there was a show about expatriate Canadians living in the US I would watch it religiously, unless it was utterly horrible.
I dunno, mole, wasn't that the premise of "Due South?" Oh, right, that was utterly horrible...never mind.
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Due South -- LeeAnn, 17:19:38 02/18/02 Mon
Don't speak ill of Due South Wisewoman. It made me a Canadianophile as well as turned me on to Stan Rogers.
Benton Frasier, the perfect man/geek.
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[> [> Re: Not here too -- LadyStarlight, 12:49:47 02/17/02 Sun
Am I to assume then, if I watch "The Bernie Mac Show" (just as an off-the-cuff example) and identify with some of the issues raised therein, that because it is an African-American oriented show, those issues are not valid for me? That they do not reflect my "reality"?
My reality is what I make of it, skin colour does not come into play.
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- Scott, 13:08:16 02/17/02 Sun
Some situations are universal. I don't watch that show so I am not sure about setting. But it is possible that there are situations on that show that African-Americans can identify with better than white people who watch that show.
Or perhaps (again I don't watch that show) people of one economic blackground can identify with better than others.
Just because you are not of the same social-economic background as the people being protrayed on the show you a watching doesn't mean you can't enjoy that show. But it does mean that you can't relate to it as well as people from that background are able to.
Malcom in the Middle is a good example. Everyone can enjoy that show, but perhaps can't relate to it as well as people who come from lower middle class households with two working parents.
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- Scott, 13:17:37 02/17/02 Sun
Looking at the web site for Bernie Mac Show I assume that there would be some aspects to parenthood that you would be able to identify with, but other aspects of the show would be lost to you. Cultural aspects that you would only be able to identify with had you been raised by a black parent.
Which is perfectly fine. Both stories have a right to be told. Both lifestyles have a right to be protrayed.
I think it is healthy that we have some shows like Buffy that protray suburbia, and others like Bernie Mac. Both shows have a place in our society.
Why is it that some when they want to talk about diversity want to exclude whites?
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[> [> [> Re: Not here too -- Lisa, 13:40:28 02/17/02 Sun
"African-American oriented" those I believe are the key words here. Doesn't mean it can't be appreciated by people of other backgrounds, but it is " African-American oriented" and you would be upset if the writers ever decided to change this orientation.
Buffy is a middle-class white oriented show. I believe what Scott is trying to say is that White Mall Rats have a story to be told as well. A perspective. Many of us grew up in Suburbia. Not our fault, but that's where we grew up.
And I am not complaining. Count myself lucky. But even for the most fortunate of us life sometimes gets difficult.
Dawn might not know how it feels to grow up a victim of racism. Or how it feels to be a refugee. But Dawn has a story to be told. She knows how it feels to lose a parent. She knows how it feels to want to be accepted by a group. How it feels to be lonely.
I think it is great that we have a show that displays how life is for us in suburbia. Something that we can identify with. Other shows can be about other situations, but this is about suburbia. The good, the bad, the ugly.
It's in the familiarity of the setting, that the show has so much power. That life, even for the most fortunate of us can get difficult. That demons exist in even the most "sunny" of places.
I don't want to downplay the pains of people who live other lifestyles. There are shows and news programs that protray them. ER for example shows what life in a big city hospital is like. And watching that show, I do feel fortunate. But people in the "Sunnydales", "Mountainviews", "Happy Glens","Greendales" we bleed to. We feel pain. And those pains are real too.
And sometimes being middle class, you get the worst of both worlds. Too rich for government benefits, too poor to live in a one breadwinner household.
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[> [> [> [> ROCKIN THE SUBURBS (ot) -- Rochefort, 15:58:20 02/17/02 Sun
let me tell y'all what it's like
being male middle class and white
it's a bitch, if you don't believe...
listen up to my new c.d.
Shamon!
I got sh-- runnin through my brain
so intense that I can't explain...
all alone in my white-boy pain...
shake your booty while the band complains
Rockin the Suburbs, just like Michael Jackson did
Rockin the Suburbs, c'ept that he was talented
Rockin the Suburbs, take the checks and face the facts
some producer with computers fixes all my shitty tracks.
Don't know how much I can take...
girl gimme something I can break.
In a haze these days, I pull up to a stop light...
I can feel that something's not right...
I can feel someone's blastin me with hate...and base.
sending dirty vibes my way!
cause my great great granddad made someone one's great great grandad his slaves.
just goin to the store for some preperation H.
Y'all don't know what it's like!
Being Male Middle Class and White!
--Ben Folds
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: ROCKIN THE SUBURBS (ot) -- Lisa, 18:57:34 02/17/02 Sun
When you compare life in America to how bad it is in other countries, you really do think that we don't have a right to complain.
But that isn't human. Pain is pain. Perhaps to outsiders from Bosnia or somewhere life is pretty easy, and perhaps it is, but don't underestimate how painful going through High School is in America.
And then, situations like Buffy being stuck in a dead end Burger joint job. Sure, it anti a refugee camp, and I guess Buffy can thank her stars for that. But still the job sucks. And the thought that - "this is all I will ever be" can get pretty terrifying.
And the death of a parent is very painful to rich and poor alike. And for Buffy it wasn't only painful, but financially destructive as well.
In a world sense, yes we are the lucky ones. Buffy's addiction to Spike, Willow's addiction to magic, Dawn's stealing, Anya and Xander's wedding seems pretty trival when compared to events and situations like 9-11. Or the world's staving, etc. But these life experiences are painful nonetheless. And I am glad that there is a program that explores them the way Buffy the Vampire Slayer does.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: ROCKIN THE SUBURBS (ot) -- Lisa, 19:08:21 02/17/02 Sun
Rochefort,
Actually your lyrics seems quite on topic here.
I could just imagine what someone like Faith would think of Dawn's (or Buffy's) problems. I can imagine Faith thinking -yeah you lost your mother. So what. The only memories I have of my mother is of her beating me when she was drunk. At least you have good memories of your mother.
Buffy, Dawn, and Willow might be "the lucky ones", but that doesn't mimimize their pains and struggles.
By the way, Being Male Middle Class and White equals forget about financial aid. Being Middle Class and Minority is far better today.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: ROCKIN THE SUBURBS (ot) -- Scott, 21:27:14 02/17/02 Sun
Cool Song.
Check out his web site.
http://www.benfolds.com/intro.html
Here's another song, from many years ago.
http://ingeb.org/songs/littlebo.html
Malvina Reynolds
1. Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.
2. And the people in the houses
All go to the university,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
And there's doctors and there's lawyers
And business executives,
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.
3. And they all play on the golf-course,
And drink their Martini dry,
And they all have pretty children,
And the children go to school.
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university,
And they all get put in boxes
And they all come out the same.
4. And the boys go into business,
And marry, and raise a family,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> malvina reynolds! awright!! -- anom, 21:59:01 02/17/02 Sun
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[> [> [> [> [> That's awesome that you posted that...Ben Folds is my personal god! (besides Joss, of course) -- Rob, 07:42:58 02/19/02 Tue
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[> [> [> Re: Bernie Mac Show -- Dochawk, 16:41:43 02/17/02 Sun
I just came from a seminar where Larry Wilmore (the creator of the Bernie Mac show)was asked this very question. Basically he said that the situation they created (a stand up comedian who is caring for his jailed sister's 3 children) has nothing to do with color. It would be funny (and I've never seen the show, but Larry Wilmore is hilarious) regardless of the color of the cast.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Bernie Mac Show -- Lisa, 18:15:04 02/17/02 Sun
I don't think the show has everything to with color but race has something to do with the show.
But more important than even race is the personality of Bernie Mac. Situation comedies like this one usually rely heavily on the background of the main character. For example, "Everyone loves Raymond" relies heavily on the family background of Ray Romano. It would be a different show entirely if Seinfeld was dropped in the situation that they dropped Bernie Mac into.
Again, you write what you know. Buffy is about predominately white middle class suburbia. But within that we are seeing more minorities in Sunnydale as suburbia becomes more ethinically diverse.
I give the show credit for protraying suburbia as it is, not as we would like it to be. There is room in television for both Bernie Mac, and for Buffy. Doesn't have to be one or the other.
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