February 2002 posts
Potential *mega spoilers* if you haven't seen next week's S6 preview
-- manwitch, 05:30:10 02/20/02 Wed
So Let's talk about Riley.
Just so we know what we're getting into.
To me, Riley was the image of Hypermasculinity, chemically enhanced.
I always felt he was a horrible match for Buffy because of his
need to diminish her. From the first moment he discovered she
was the slayer, his response was about his own humiliation and
how to make up for it. "I don't even know if I could take
you." and "Give me a week to get ready, and I'll take
you down."
Even after he left the initiative and semi-joined the scoobies,
he was never comfortable relinquishing his leadership authority
to her. He talked a good game about "Lets agree to take care
of each other," but he seemed to me to embody scripts of
male protection. Does he like women? sure. Is he polite and chivalrous?
sure. But he expects to be the male protector. And he expects
women to like it and be appreciative. He's Cowboy Guy, the ultiimate
white hat from the westerns who will receive the girl as the boon
of his hero deed.
Riley never owned up to his own dishonesty at their parting. No
matter how cool Xander was in that episode, I always thought it
was a great stroke of luck that Buffy didn't get to the helicopter
in time. And in that scene, the use of the sound always made me
think that Riley knew she was there. We see a close up of Buffy
screaming his name. Then we get "pov" from inside the
helicopter, looking out past Riley down towards Buffy, and the
sound of her cries become fainter, muted. But they can still be
heard. If they wanted us to think Riley was just oblivious, we
would have just seen her down there waving her arms. I mean, we
already knew what she was doing. But the camera "hears"
her. Which means Riley hears her. He finally gets the moment he
has craved with her the whole time. He's the powerful one. She
needs him. He's the man.
That boy makes me so mad. Contrast him to Spike!! I am always
amazed at the number of people who think Spike is a bad match
for Buffy. He never wants her to be less than. Whether he loves
her or wants to kill her, he loves that this is the best slayer
there is. That's how Spike measures himself. Selfish perhaps,
but he promotes Buffy's self-fulfillment. Riley does not. And
Buffy's final conversation with Riley is dead on. "That's
what this is about, isn't it? You can't handle the fact that I'm
stronger than you."
Now he's back. Fit and trim in his uniform. Contrasted with the
nakedness of Spike's "dead body." There is a nakedness
to Spike. He is what he is. Riley is a costume. A creation. An
inflated uniform.
And his timing couldn't be worse. Offering Buffy the chance to
retreat, to be protected, to go back to ground she's already covered.
When its time to grow up.
I'm very distressed.
Someone, help me out here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Potential *mega spoilers* if you haven't seen next week's
S6 preview -- Anne, 05:46:00 02/20/02 Wed
I'm speculating, but I don't think Riley being back means that
they are going to have Buffy wind up with him or anyone like him,
and I do think it still leaves the door open for Spike at some
point in the future.
To me it seems obvious that, whether or not Buffy is going to
end up with Spike, there is a dramatic necessity for her to have
at least one more try at "being normal", which would
include being with a relatively normal guy. By breaking up with
Riley in the fifth season, it might be maintained that Buffy tacitly
rejected normality. But the truth is she hasn't yet consciously
chosen, or taken responsibility for, the fact that as the Slayer
neither she nor her life are going to be normal, ever. And I suspect
that Season 6, which is forcing her to face her demons in every
sense of the word, is going to bring her to that point. In my
opinion, the best way to bring her to that choice is to have her
make a serious try at normality and find out it just doesn't work
for her. Having Riley come back could just be a vehicle for instigating
that process.
By the way -- again sheer speculation -- it seems to me that Spike
is undergoing a mirror-image journey to that of Buffy: she's a
creature of the light with a big streak of darkness in her, striving
to reconcile herself to that darkness, and he a creature of the
darkness with a streak of light, striving to reconcile himself
with the light. If the plot line bears this out, we would expect
Spike to lose his chip and have a serious go at being evil again
-- and find out that it just won't work for him any more. (I have
a post below under the "does Spike think he can change"
thread arguing that being evil has already been ruined for Spike
-- he can do it, but it won't be the simple uncomplicated fun
for him that it used to be).
Here's hoping, anyway.
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[> [> I can make you feel better if you don't mind spoilers..if
you do, don't read further.. -- JodithGrace, 06:27:08 02/20/02
Wed
Riley is married. His wife's name is Sam and she is a fellow demon
hunter. So Buffy and Riley will not be getting back together even
for one episode despite the typically misleading promo.
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[> [> [> All that is on the Trollup Board......:):) --
Rufus, 07:09:27 02/20/02 Wed
You would have known not to worry....:):)
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[> Pairing up and pop psychology. -- Darby, 07:08:18 02/20/02
Wed
It is said that girls (women? not sure what's applicable here)
seek mates (the old adage is husbands, but boyfriends apply to
BtVS) who are like their fathers. I and others have compared Hank
Summers, what little we know of him, with Angel, Parker, and Spike
- the impetuousity, lack of responsibility, temperament, etc.,
seem to support the comparison.
It's my assertion that Riley is more comparable to Buffy's other
father, Giles. More available, more dependable, somewhat more
authoritarian and somewhat threatened by Buffy's independence.
In subsequent recent FX reruns, first Riley and then Giles refer
to Buffy's "mystery"; was that accidental? If you look,
comparisons are everywhere, especially if you match in the parallels
between the Initiative and the Watchers' Council. The similarities
actually increase once Riley has lost his enhanced abilities.
Buffy's tendency to be protective of Riley and sometimes not include
him are somewhat similar to the way she relates to Giles as well.
But didn't she accept Giles as an equal partner? Riley could have
been that.
But are Buffy and Riley mismatched? Compare Buffy to Giles' "soulmate,"
Jenny Calendar - more similarities than differences, aren't there?
Of course, in no way am I discounting the fact that almost everybody
out here on the observation deck hates Riley as Buffy's boyfriend,
but that didn't seem relevant here...
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[> [> Re: Pairing up and pop psychology. -- dream of the
consortium, 07:32:08 02/20/02 Wed
Hmmm... My problem with that is that ultimately Riley couldn't
conceptualize much beyond the us/them mentality that Buffy has
been learning to go beyond since Angel. There are parallel between
Giles and Riley - but remember "A New Man", when Giles
goes out drinking with Ethan Rayne? That episode specifically
draws distinctions between Giles and Riley. Riley is shown as
a soldier, a follower of orders (yes, he does learn to question
authority later). He's all about having the keys, and the guns,
and the access to computer databases. And Giles? "We are
both old sorcerers, you and me" says Ethan, not known for
his truth-telling, admittedly, but hitting the nail on the head
with that. Giles agrees and toasts "To magic." Buffy
is of the world of magic, and she has no choice about that (though
at this point, I believe she is beyond wanting it any other way).
Riley can leave the demon-fighting business to fight regular armies
if he chooses, and one could imagine him doing it. Could you imagine
Giles or Buffy as a regular soldier? It just doesn't work.
That said, I like Riley. Despite everyone's complaints about his
supposed desire to diminish Buffy, I think he was actually surprisingly
accepting of her and proud of her skill and ability. If he had
a hard time with believing she could love him, he at least had
some good reason for that. She didn't really love him, and she
did seem to assume at every turn that he was going to be intimidated
by her. Buffy seemed to be just as responsible as he was for making
the non-traditional roles an issue, if not more so. Their relationship
made a lot of sense for a stage of Buffy's life, and I thought
it was handled very well.
Of course, I bristle a bit to hear any comparisons made between
Riley and Giles. I mean, Riley was nice and all in that boyish
All-American way, but Giles, Giles is something else entirely...
That voice, the wit, the intelligence, those eyes.... sigh....
how long until the Ripper series?
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[> [> [> OT - Are you in the UK? Did you see 'Manchild'
last night? -- Marie, 08:14:11 02/20/02 Wed
Giles is something else entirely... That voice, the wit, the intelligence,
those eyes.... sigh.... how long until the Ripper series?
'Giles' in only a towel, in a Turkish Bath! Oh, dear, I wish I
hadn't seen that! (And, yeah, yeah, I know it's shallow, but...
you know... Giles!).
Marie
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[> [> [> [> Re: OT - Are you in the UK? Did you see
'Manchild' last night? -- dream of the consortium, 08:42:30 02/20/02
Wed
Not in the UK, though if Giles is showing up in just a towel on
prime-time, maybe I'll move.
You're in Wales, correct? I envy you. The most beautiful place
on earth, I'm convinced.
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[> [> [> [> Re: OT - Are you in the UK? Did you see
'Manchild' last night? -- Spikesbitch, 20:26:44 02/20/02 Wed
I saw Manchild and have to admit I thought it was pretty bad.
Those voiceovers were supremely annoying and to be honest I wouldn't
have bothered watching if Giles wasn't in it. He had all the best
lines and the impotency scene gave me a good laugh.
He was incredibly hot on that moterbike I have to say. And am
I the only person who winced at the scene where he is offered
liposuction to make another part of his body er slightly larger.
Giles is just perfect the way he is. The towl scene only proved
that.
Well thats my contribution to the thread anyway, take it and run.
Anyone else in the UK (I'm also in Wales) watch Manchild?
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[> [> Re: little Riley happy at last (no spoilers) -- ponygirl,
07:59:22 02/20/02 Wed
BtVS does like its symbolic pairings doesn't it? However I would
say that Giles is actually paired with Spike (though not alas
in that way), Joss himself has said Giles and Spike represent
roles each has rejected. Their link was further played up when
Spike took on the role of Giles' son in TR. I would say that Riley's
symbolic double is Xander -for Xander, Riley represented all that
he craved, male bonding (though not alas in that way), physical
prowess, military know-how, respect, and of course Buffy. What
Xander represented for Riley is less clear, though I imagine Xander
was what Riley feared becoming once he left the Iniative - the
guy with no purpose, weak, rejected by Buffy.
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[> Re: Riley as symbolic of patriarchy ...spoilers for As You
Were -- Caroline, 07:31:17 02/20/02 Wed
I do understand where you are coming from manwitch. I've interpreted
Riley symbolically as the representative of the unreconstructed
patriarchal world. Buffy herself is a challenge to the patriarchy
- a young, short, blonde with super strength and the ability to
deal with dangerous, violent situations every day, something that
only men should be able to do in a patriarchal world. However,
Riley could never stretch his brain enough to accept her as she
is without somehow feeling himself to be diminished. His whole
behaviour to her was designed to weaken her so that she needed
him in the way he wanted her to need him, not in the way she needed
him.
Riley also represented the part of Buffy that has internalized
the patriarchal view. In terms of her public world and conscious
life, Buffy has always challenged patriarchal modes of female
behaviour. However, in her internal, unconscious world, particularly
her sexuality, she has internalized patriarchal norms. Sexually,
she was the maiden ignorant of the hidden, female aspects of life.
In fact, her conscious life helped to cut her off from it. That's
symbolically why the first boy she slept with turned evil - it
represented her fears of the hidden parts of life - sex, orgasm,
menstruation, blood etc. With Riley, she got to more fully explore
her feminine power but the cost was too high - the price for her
newfound knowledge of her feminine power was to give up her power
in her public, conscious life, or forever face resentment from
Riley if the relationship continued. (That's why I hated the whole
helicopter scene).
Now, the contrast with Spike. He allows her to fully explore her
unconscious, feminine power without judgement. She gets to unleash
all of the stuff that's inside her and it's really scary for the
innocent, ignorant nymph. Buffy is symbolically Persephone, unconsciously
desiring to delve into the underworld and Spike is playing her
Pluto. Patriarchal role-playing does not really have a place in
their relationship that I can see, except as Buffy allows her
own internalized norms to lead her to harsh self-judgement about
her behaviour and the newly-discovered parts of herself. And I
hope that she does move beyond that. After the abduction and 'rape'
of Persephone, a compromise is reached whereby she lives half
the year in the underworld with her lover and half above ground.
This is symbolic of the integration that she reached with her
conscious and hidden self. Buffy has the opportunity to do this
now - integrate the disparate parts of her Self - as well as spend
part of her time with her demon lover in his world physically
if she chooses. Because let's face it, Buffy will never have a
normal life.
As for Spike, the projection works in reverse. Buffy represents
to him the good side of his nature that he has repressed since
her became a vampire and he needs to make a journey that parallels
Buffy's. And I think that you have really hit on something manwitch
about the symbolic meaning of Spike's nudity this season - he
is open and vulnerable whereas Riley is a toy soldier. But don't
be distressed - ME usually plays the myths out to the end - e.g.
the whole crucifixion/resurrection myth in season 5, the genesis
myth in season 4 - so I have a feeling they'll play Spike and
Buffy out too. It fits so well with the maturity theme this season
for them to throw it away in one episode.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Riley as symbolic of patriarchy ...spoilers for
As You Were -- Rufus, 07:37:08 02/20/02 Wed
But it's okay if Riley cleans my house....right?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Housecleaning -- Kimberly, 08:10:21 02/20/02
Wed
Rufus, I just got this wild image of Riley in a French maid's
outfit (without the top, of course) cleaning your house.
Enjoy. ;-)
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[> [> [> Re: Riley as symbolic of patriarchy ...spoilers
for As You Were -- Caroline, 11:55:19 02/20/02 Wed
okay, the visual is pretty good, Marc Blucas is quite sexy in
that tall, manly way, but the character of Riley just wasn't right
for Buffy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Riley as symbolic of patriarchy ...spoilers
for As You Were -- Rufus, 19:05:08 02/20/02 Wed
I wasn't thinking of Buffy.......:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> You have someone "better"
in mind? -- VampRiley, 19:18:02 02/20/02 Wed
Maybe Spike for some m/m action?
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Yes -- purplegrrl, 11:10:11 02/21/02 Thu
But make sure you feed him milk and cookies afterwards. He needs
to keep his strength up.
:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Yes of course can't forget the milk
and cookies.....;) -- Rufus, 18:18:40 02/21/02 Thu
Can't have him starving to death.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Potential *mega spoilers* if you haven't seen next week's
S6 preview -- Caroline, 07:38:35 02/20/02 Wed
I do understand where you are coming from manwitch. I've interpreted
Riley symbolically as the representative of the unreconstructed
patriarchal world. Buffy herself is a challenge to the patriarchy
- a young, short, blonde with super strength and the ability to
deal with dangerous, violent situations every day, something that
only men should be able to do in a patriarchal world. However,
Riley could never stretch his brain enough to accept her as she
is without somehow feeling himself to be diminished. His whole
behaviour to her was designed to weaken her so that she needed
him in the way he wanted her to need him, not in the way she needed
him.
Riley also represented the part of Buffy that has internalized
the patriarchal view. In terms of her public world and conscious
life, Buffy has always challenged patriarchal modes of female
behaviour. However, in her internal, unconscious world, particularly
her sexuality, she has internalized patriarchal norms. Sexually,
she was the maiden ignorant of the hidden, female aspects of life.
In fact, her conscious life helped to cut her off from it. That's
symbolically why the first boy she slept with turned evil - it
represented her fears of the hidden parts of life - sex, orgasm,
menstruation, blood etc. With Riley, she got to more fully explore
her feminine power but the cost was too high - the price for her
newfound knowledge of her feminine power was to give up her power
in her public, conscious life, or forever face resentment from
Riley if the relationship continued. (That's why I hated the whole
helicopter scene).
Now, the contrast with Spike. He allows her to fully explore her
unconscious, feminine power without judgement. She gets to unleash
all of the stuff that's inside her and it's really scary for the
innocent, ignorant nymph. Buffy is symbolically Persephone, unconsciously
desiring to delve into the underworld and Spike is playing her
Pluto. Patriarchal role-playing does not really have a place in
their relationship that I can see, except as Buffy allows her
own internalized norms to lead her to harsh self-judgement about
her behaviour and the newly-discovered parts of herself. And I
hope that she does move beyond that. After the abduction and 'rape'
of Persephone, a compromise is reached whereby she lives half
the year in the underworld with her lover and half above ground.
This is symbolic of the integration that she reached with her
conscious and hidden self. Buffy has the opportunity to do this
now - integrate the disparate parts of her Self - as well as spend
part of her time with her demon lover in his world physically
if she chooses. Because let's face it, Buffy will never have a
normal life.
As for Spike, the projection works in reverse. Buffy represents
to him the good side of his nature that he has repressed since
her became a vampire and he needs to make a journey that parallels
Buffy's. And I think that you have really hit on something manwitch
about the symbolic meaning of Spike's nudity this season - he
is open and vulnerable whereas Riley is a toy soldier. But don't
be distressed - ME usually plays the myths out to the end - e.g.
the whole crucifixion/resurrection myth in season 5, the genesis
myth in season 4 - so I have a feeling they'll play Spike and
Buffy out too. It fits so well with the maturity theme this season
for them to throw it away in one episode.
note: This post was removed and reinserted because it had a major
spoiler in the subject thread. Please avoid doing this!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Keep spoilery words and names out of subject lines,
please! -- Public service reminder, 07:45:53 02/20/02 Wed
That's what the trollop board (see link above) is for--philosophical
goodness and spoilage at the same time Woowee!!
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[> [> [> Re: Keep spoilery words and names out of subject
lines, please!- please clarify -- Caroline, 08:04:56 02/20/02
Wed
I thought that because we had a preview with Riley in it then
it wasn't spoilery - could I get clarification on this? I don't
want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of the show but that was my understanding.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Keep spoilery words and names out
of subject lines, please!- please clarify -- Masquerade, 09:32:06
02/20/02 Wed
Sorry, I didn't see the previews because I don't watch reruns
unless I need to tape them. I've been avoiding spoilers completely
this season and I accidentally heard about the Riley one about
a week ago. So I really flipped out seeing it in your subject
line. Didn't mean to pick on you in particular. After I saw yours,
I noticed it was in other places in this thread and in another
thread, too.
The general policy of the main ATPoBtVS board is not to give away
major plot points before and about a week after the show airs
for the first time in North America. Some people won't see the
show until Saturday. We don't worry much about UKers or other
non-North America people because they can get spoiled just about
anywhere in the six months until they get to see new episodes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep spoilery words and names
out of subject lines, please!- please clarify -- Darby, 09:52:13
02/20/02 Wed
The thing is, we're mostly discussing Riley in the abstract -
not his upcoming role, but his role in the FX arc being run now.
Yeah, his upcoming appearance got us thinking about that, and
his name in a "spoiler"-labelled thread is somewhat
spoilery, but...Oops.
Never mind. Sorry.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep spoilery words and names
out of subject lines, please!- please clarify -- Caroline, 11:52:58
02/20/02 Wed
Thanks Masquerade. I apologize to all the spoiled and promise
to observe the rule for one week after the show. I can now of
course think of a hundred different subject lines that do not
include the name of the enormous hall monitor....
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[> [> [> [> [> Me too -- verdantheart, 06:27:24
02/22/02 Fri
I've been avoiding spoilers too, and was similarly accidentally
spoiled earlier about this very subject! Earlier I was even spoiled
accidentally just trying to find out whether there were going
to be new episodes over the Thanksgiving holidays! It's really
hard to avoid being spoiled these days!
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[> [> [> And one more point.... -- Caroline, 08:14:41
02/20/02 Wed
I'm not the first to do this. Other posters have done it in this
thread and in the 'As you were recap' thread below. I read d'Herblay's
post saying that previews weren't spoilery so I went ahead and
did it. So why haven't the other posts mentioning Riley been re-inserted
with new subject lines?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Caroline -- Marie, 08:22:12 02/20/02 Wed
It is confusing, isn't it? But previews for you lucky people in
the US are spoilers for not-so-lucky ones (such as moi!) here
in the UK and other places.
Now, personally, as a self-confessed Trollop, I love spoilers
(oh, yes!), but can appreciate that others don't, so some kind,
clever person invented the Trollop Board. Praise be!
Only people are prone to forget in their subject headings, so
it's just as well to be careful.
Hope that helps.
Marie
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[> [> less distressed -- manwitch, 08:24:07 02/20/02 Wed
I don't know nuthin about subject lines, but the content is pretty
outstanding. This is one of the best explanations of Buffy's sexuality
I have yet read. And it definitely helps me feel less distressed.
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[> [> [> This is a blantant, shameless plug for yours
truly, but if you are interested... -- OnM, 14:46:41 02/20/02
Wed
... you might visit the Existential Scoobies site and check out
my 1st Anniversary character essay on Riley.
I have long since come to accept that this individual will always
cause a substantial rift in the Buffy fan community as to what
he was or wasn't 'about', but since my analysis is so completely
opposite of yours, it might be interesting for you to get a 180
perspective in some greater detail.
BTW, Warning!! This essay is VERY, and I mean VERY long.
Now, a shameless, blatant plug for other veteran boarders, directed
at all ATPo newbies-- if you haven't checked out last summer's
1st Anniversary Character Posts, please do so... These writings
represent some of the board's very best work!
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[> [> [> [> What's the link? -- Traveler, 15:52:17
02/20/02 Wed
I don't know where the existential scoobie site is, and if you
could give a link directly to your essay, I would really appreciate
it. Thanks :)
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[> [> [> [> [> It's right at the top of the page,
'First Anniversary Character Posts' ... -- OnM, 20:21:20 02/20/02
Wed
...or right here:
http://ivyweb.com/btvs/characters.html
Once there, click on the character of your choice.
You can also find a link to the Existential Scoobies site from
the ATPoBtVS home page.
:)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks. -- Traveler, 11:46:05
02/21/02 Thu
I really do feel like I have a better grasp on Riley's character
now, and I respect him a lot more for it. Still, I don't want
to see Buffy dump Spike for him :P
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[> [> [> [> Re: This is a blantant, shameless plug
for yours truly, but if you are interested... -- Caroline, 07:49:28
02/21/02 Thu
I haven't made it yet to the character posts and, as someone who
was sympathetic to manwitch's views on Riley, I took your advice
and checked out the Riley essay. But I have to say, in all respect,
that I disagree with a lot of the interpretations of Riley's behaviour.
In many ways he is an admirable figure - duty and honour are important
to him and he has shown many times just how caring he can be.
However, I have several areas of disagreement:
1. Riley does respect Maggie's authority but he can never comes
to terms with Buffy's superior strength. And the reason that he
does choose to follow Buffy out of the Initiative is not respect
for her authority or a guarantee that he will follow her authorithy
in the future, it's that the Initiative and Maggie are corrupt,
their values are not in accord with his. (In fact, to say he follows
Buffy's authority diminishes his own moral conscience - in many
ways he's a decent guy). Also,
2. Riley helping the lesbians is not 'integrating his sexual and
social relationships in the manner of a woman' - he was being
gentlemanly and helping the ladies - very male and not an acceptance
of strong women.
3. Riley not recognizing Faith in Buffy's body was probably the
nail in the coffin for many fans. I wouldn't have given this event
the signficance that I do if Buffy had not recognized Giles while
he was a Fyarl demon. The fact that she looked into his eyes and
new that it was him was not about magic etc. It was symbolic of
the deep connection that people who love each other have. And
Riley didn't have it with Buffy. To me, this meant that Riley
saw the surface of Buffy, he sees what he wants to see of her,
not the real her.
This goes a long way to explain why I feel that Riley, although
a decent person in many ways, did not belong with Buffy.
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[> [> [> [> [> My more rational view of Riley --
manwitch, 08:37:20 02/22/02 Fri
I enjoyed the existential scoobie piece, but I confess I do agree
with Caroline.
Riley is not just part of the Initiative system, he's part of
the Western Cultural System based on the Garden Myth that all
of Season 4 is at pains to reject. Its not just a plot device
that Riley is the only major character we have ever seen actually
go to church as a member of the congregation. He's a participant
in that culture and its values. Those values include the separation
of man from nature, the superiority of man over nature and the
turning of nature to man's purpose. Those values also include
obediance to authority, particularly obediance to the Father (note
that women and the natural impulses to sexuality were regarded
as corrupt after the Fall), fighting for good against evil, and
the notion of progress--that we can come eventually to reclaim
the truth that was obscured from us in the Fall from the Garden.
These aren't just my interpretations of the Garden Myth. Many
many have said this before. Particularly the notion of modern
science as stemming from, as Joseph Campbell calls it, "the
biblical condemnation of nature that they brought with them."
The argument against this culture, which appears commonly in science
fiction, is that in divorcing ourselves from nature and recognizing
only "useful" knowledge as valid, we divorce ourselves
from Life, and from our own humanity. Such knowledge, such an
approach to knowledge is not creative, it is destructive. You
can see this, for example, in The Terminator. By following a system
of rules based on utility we become monsters. We may look like
a human on the outside, with bad breath and all, but inside we
are an inhuman machine, run by rules and programming, not advancing
humanity. In fact, we are destroying our own humanity by doing
it. The movie makes this clear by showing the Terminator get his
human flesh burnt off of him, and his lower half (the procreative
half) blown off of him. Because following the rules of a system
is not creative of life. Contrast to Sarah Connor, who in a gesture
of compassion towards the suffering what's his name conceives
the saviour of humanity. Through our compassion, our love for
each other, we bring forth the creative power of life. So at the
end, a pregnant Sarah Connor destroys a sterile and impotent man/machine.
Buffy calls Adam "The Terminator but without the charm."
And the symbols do appear to be right on. As the product of a
sytstem of rules and authority, we don't develop our humanity,
we become a monster. We may have some human parts, but we're a
monster. Adam is the ultimate production of man's separation from
nature and fall from the Garden. Maggie Walsh is the corrupt woman/mother,
the Eve-temptress who throws Man into the world of Good and Evil,
gives him this approach to knowledge. And, like the Terminator,
that approach is ultimately destructive of life. "My purpose
is to extinguish life, wherever I find it." Adam is really
the worst monster that such a culture can produce. Part man, part
monster part machine, all run by programming. But the programming
didn't begin with computer science geeks. It began with the Garden
Myth.
Riley is Adam's brother. He is also produced by the same system.
By the same "mother." Riley is the best that such a
culture can produce. He is good, loyal, honest, brave. He is absolutely
a good and decent man. Buffy is his Eve-temptress, but she tempts
him not to the knowledge of Good and Evil, but to the knowledge
of Life and its impulses. That is surely part of the intense sexuality
of their relationship. Buffy is Eve as the initiator of life.
Again to inaccurately quote Campbell, "Of course woman brings
man in to the world of opposites. But I think its childish to
reject the world and all its sufferings." Women bring man
into Life. By this other view of the Garden myth, Eve gives us
the greatest gift. Humanity. And that is forever in the gray zone
of compassion. Riley ultimately cannot survive in that world.
He needs to "know what he needs to know." To know what
to do. To have the orders. To have someone tell him that what
he's doing is good. He needs his moral structures handed to him.
Hence he goes to the church. (This is meant to be my own personal
evaluation of symbols on a TV show, not a comment about the value
of church or people that go there. No offense is intended towards
anyone). He expects instruction, he even seems to require orders.
The Scoobs way of defeating Adam is not the Riley way. Its not
guns and heroism. It is a surprisinly postmodern spell of "de-individualization."
The term is Michel Foucault's and it refers to the process of
rejecting the static and separate individual identities that the
State imposes upon us. To recognize that our individuality is
acutally made up of very complex relationships to ourselves and
to others and that it is never static, never pre-determined. Its
an approach to knowledge and identity that lies outside the Garden
Myth, and draws on powers that are antecedent to it.
In defeating Adam, and particularly by defeating him in this way,
the show is saying something. I know that Etrangere, in her really
fascinating and excellent posts on Season 4, has said that the
shows comment on culture and nature was ultimately ambiguous.
I would argue that it very explicitly rejected our separation
from nature, our dominance over it, and our adherence to the kinds
of values that stem from the Western Civilization interpretation
of the Garden Myth.
And the sad thing is that Riley is part of that set of values.
Riley, at his best, perpetuates patriarchy, sexual inequality,
and fascism. He doesn't mean to. He requires that moral determinations
be made external to himself, that men protect women, that men
and women be "equal" even if it means reducing the power
of women, and that he obey orders. Since Riley has surrendered
the power of moral decision making, those orders could just as
well come from Mussolini. As it turns out, they were coming from
a pretty objectionable source as it was.
Riley makes very clear that he isn't comfortable in the grays.
I'm not saying he's bad, or that he never contributed. He's the
best. That a particular order of knowledge can produce. But its
still flawed, and its still inadequate to Buffy's needs. Riley
is certainly admirable for his attempt to leave the initiative.
But he needs the structure. Buffy doesn't make him that way. He
was already that. Wesley, by contrast, is 80,000 times the man
that Riley is. Wesley made the journey. He made it all the way.
No backsliding. Riley ends up back with the military, back with
the boys, back with the structure, back with the orders. That's
where he's comfortable.
So that's my more reasoned view of why I feel about Riley the
way I do.
For Buffy to be with Riley would be for her to reject everything
she stands for. Not gonna happen. For Buffy to be with Spike would
be for her to fully incorporate otherness into her self. That
sounds like her. Not that it'll be smooth or happy.
As far as the military goes, I don't think Buffy's portrayal of
the military is intended as a knock on the military, but I think
it simply uses the military as a metaphor for a mode of interpersonal
relationships that it believes are inadequate for the day.
And I also am not saying the show is dumping on men. There are
lots of great men in the show. Xander for example. But it is definitely
playing with particular conventions of masculinity. Its noteworthy
that Xander's current anxieties come from his concerns of being
a "provider."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My more rational view
of Riley -- Teri, 10:34:30 02/22/02 Fri
Alls I can say on this post is....Whoa!
And! That it makes me want to go back and watch the entire season
four in a whole new light!
Great post!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Gee, and I just saw Riley as a cigar... -- Darby,
09:46:06 02/20/02 Wed
Not to diminish any of the symbolism, but Riley also worked fine
as a young guy coming to grips with a radical shift in his worldview.
His reactions to Buffy were undoubtedly somewhat those of bruised
ego, but his problems with her not opening up to him, and of her
for not truly trusting his motivations, were so typical of many
relationships that I just bought the story at face value. It was
just one of those rebound things where, having been burned by
a failed romance's intensity, a person hooks up with a partner
who will love them unconditionally while they stay reserved from
fully engaging. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and the
guilt.
I got past it to an equal partnership, though - what's Buffy doing?
I was going to follow up with a point about the show's layers,
but that's just too bad a pun now to allow discussion.
Arrrggghhhh!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Thinking about starting a thread called 'Overanalyze
much? .. certainly applies to me! -- Caroline, 19:48:49 02/21/02
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Potential *mega spoilers* if you haven't seen next week's
S6 preview -- Dochawk, 07:51:13 02/20/02 Wed
I agree, Spike wants Buffy to be the best Slayer she can be, what
drives us away from Spike is that he does NOT want Buffy to be
the best person she can be. He wants her to be a vamp in human
clothing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I like your reasoning....it gels some stuff that's been
floating around in my head.. -- AurraSing, 07:56:04 02/20/02 Wed
Yeah,Riley had some issues but I never before thought it through
from this angle.And of course to make matters worse Buffy will
think "Oh,this is what I gave up!" and give Spike the
boot.
Well,here is a harsh fact of life-never base your life on "What
might have been" and look at other couples to compare the
state your relationship is in.Every 'ship is unique and I wish
Buffy could realise that.Grrr.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: I like your reasoning....it gels some stuff that's
been floating around in my head.. -- Rufus, 08:04:52 02/20/02
Wed
Ahh but maybe she will finally get the "perfectly normal
life" syndrome over and done with......maybe not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Perfectly Abnormal Life -- Rachel, 09:12:39
02/20/02 Wed
It frustrates me to no end that Buffy wants to be so "normal,"
like her non-slayer friends. Hello -- no one around her is the
prototype for normal. These kids have seen so much strange stuff.
Therapists would have a thriving practice in Sunnydale.
Beyond the Hellmouth, though, I wonder where Buffy gets her image
of normal? I'll second the "grrrr" from the poster who
said that all 'ships have their unique good/bad stuff. Buffy is
a good-looking, powerful, well-clothed/fed/housed, educated young
woman surrounded by people who would die for her. Yeah, she's
right, she's not normal. Does she really want to live in a low-rent
I-flip-burgers apartment, wear non-designer clothes, struggle
with the eternal extra 10 pounds, have a boyfriend who doesn't
kick ass, have many acquaintences but few or no kinship-type friends,
and not be able to drop witty remarks at every turn? Cause that's
"normal" for a lot of people I know!!!
Okay, my rant is over. Let the more enlightened posting continue.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> "The grass is always greener..."
-- Deeva, 11:11:17 02/20/02 Wed
I'm not much more enlightened but heck that's never stopped me
from running my mouth. I know that I'm generalizing but people
will always want what they don't have then they move to the next
thing to fixate on.
Buffy's sense of normal probably originates from her pre-Slayer,
I'm-a-cheerleader and my-parents-are-still-together" days
at Hemery High. For the longest time she lamented on how much
she wanted that all back. She got a little taste of "normal
non-ass kicking girl" back in Helpless. Not so loving it.
Her strength is a part of her as much as the fact that she is
blond (in varying degrees through out the years!). But like lots
of individuals, you don't truly know what you have till it is
taken away from you. There are a lot more people out there who
would love to have the life you're living because they think it
might be the ideal. They don't really see the downsides as bad
as they are because they just don't know. The "only if I
had/did this" is an awesome flight of fancy. We've all done
it but would you really? I don't think that Buffy would really
choose to be that "normal". Sometimes the idea of being
something else and trying to achieve it is better than actually
achieving it. It might get you to where you're really supposed
to be. Such is life.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Good but for one niggling detail :) -- Earl Allison, 09:38:23
02/20/02 Wed
I loved your post, great, great work.
Except (c'mon, you KNEW there would be an 'except')where you write;
"That boy makes me so mad. Contrast him to Spike!! I am always
amazed at the number of people who think Spike is a bad match
for Buffy."
Disliking Spike doesn't automatically make someone pro-Riley,
or vice-versa -- the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I disliked Riley, partially for what you said, and partially for
what he did to the vampiress, Sandy. He led her on, and staked
her -- I'm sorry, he came to her, knowing what she was, and staked
her -- grrrr.
However, that being said, I don't like Spike with her either,
but for different reasons.
I know it's not what you meant, but it just sounded a bit like
hating Spike = loving Riley ...
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Yeah ! I'm not the only one to feel like that for
Sandy ! poor Sandy :'( -- Etrangere, 09:42:47 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Nope not the only one. -- Spikebitch, 20:41:30
02/20/02 Wed
I thought Riley was despicible. In many ways Buffy's current behaviour
mirrors Riley's treatment of Sandy. She sees Spike as an inconvienience
there to provide her with what she needs and when she's done she
just casts him aside. I mean imagine if Riley had actually had
sex with Sandy before staking her. Or if Buffy shagged Spike and
staked him in Wrecked immediately afterwards. Puts a slightly
different spin on it in my eyes. And of course Riley going to
the vamps offering blood was connected with sex. Riley passed
himself of as superior and saw Sandy as subhuman. Buffy is trying
to do the same with Spike. It seems to me that's the influnce
of the initiative and the Watchers council kicking in. Lets hope
Riley has managed to adjust his black and white world view. He
may even help Buffy do likewise?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only one. -- Mr. B, 21:10:19
02/20/02 Wed
Sandy is subhuman, I'd have staked her, she probably killed lots
of people. Maybe that makes bad or something, but I don't see
a problem with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only one. -- Spikesbitch,
21:23:25 02/20/02 Wed
But do we know she killed anyone? She was accepting blood from
willing donars. Buffy has generally staked vampires only because
she sees them committing wrong doing. In Crush for instance she
lets two rather pathetic vampires run off when realizing they're
not much of a threat. Therefore Riley staked Sandy not because
of her actions but because of who she is. She may have never taken
a life.
And I feel Riley's actions say a great deal about him as a person.
To use Sandy's services before staking her was morally wrong regardless
of whether Sandy may have actually deserved it or not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only one.
-- Mr. B, 21:44:35 02/20/02 Wed
I understand where you are coming from about Riley's actions,
but yes, we can assume Sandy killed people, she is a vampire,
that's what they do. Maybe she stopped after a while when she
was shown she could get blood in a mutal pact between her and
a willing "donor" and avoid the pitfalls of hiding the
body (if they do) and getting staked. If she did then good for
her and her trick, but if she has killed humans then she should
be staked, no matter what her current status is. I believe this
is true for Spike as well, and in some ways this is why I agree
with Holtz's revenge against Angel. Do we forget all past transgressions
because said vampire is currently leaving people alone? I have
a problem with that---people discus shades of grays while acting
like there are no blacks and whites, untrue.
And that's why Buffy is wrong for letting any vampire get away
because though they may appear weak and ineffectual to her, a
normal human doesn't stand a chance. This is why commom people
like Justine and Gunn are justified as vampire hunters. While
other demons may be harmless, vampires are different for me and
shouldn't be taken lightly, except Angel perhaps, and that's not
always a certain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only
one. -- Spikesbitch, 22:28:31 02/20/02 Wed
But like I said in my previous post whether vampires deserve certain
treatment or not I don't feel it always justifies the "good
guys" actions. For instance we can say the vampires and demons
captured by the inititive deserved torture but it still made me
uncomfortable to see Oz prodded and Spike doomed to live in that
tiny cage for experimentation purposes. I don't think Riley's
behaviour of Sandy was justified. If he was going to stake her
fair enough. But to use her to bring him satisfaction first. Nothing
particularly heroic about that.
And I am puzzled at your condemnation of Angel. He had no soul
when terrorising Holtz and is therefore no longe rthe same person
in a way. It's not just a question of Angel doing good now giving
him a free pass. Angelous is his dark half he is constantly trying
to suppress. Just my interpretation anyway, feel fre to disagree.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Argh! I had this
great wonderful long post and didn't... -- Mr. B, 02:16:17 02/21/02
Thu
press the final submit button. Darnit, it was good---I did some
agreeing with you and expanded my views. Serves me right for staying
up too late. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> By all means, stake her, but USE
her first ... -- Earl Allison, 02:02:15 02/21/02 Thu
Nope, sorry, wouldn't be prudent :)
Seriously, you have a good point, Sandy was an evil vampire. Stake
her, absolutely, but do NOT lead her on and utilize her services,
make her think something else, and THEN stake her.
To me, that said a lot about Riley -- and none of it good.
Actually, it made me think Riley was a gutless coward here. He
approached Sandy, after brushing her off earlier. She admitted
what she was, he went to her willingly, BIG difference from a
vampire hunter stalking its undead prey. He should have either
staked her the first chance he got, or left her alone -- but what
he actually did was uncalled for.
And while I agree, she probably did kill -- what about Oz? Surely
his werewolf form had killed, or would kill given the chance --
he DID kill Veruca, and Jack (albeit he was already the walking
dead). How far do we go?
And if we agree with Holtz, that good behavior never undoes bad,
does that mean there is no such thing as redemption? That once
you do bad, you can never make up for it, so why even try?
Spike I can see, he's not trying to make up for past wrongs, nor
does he even acknowledge them as such, but Angel.
And here's a tricky one -- what about Drusilla? Is she criminally
insane, and therefore not truly to blame for her actions, or is
she evil by default, being a vampire?
THIS is why I love this board, discussions like this.
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ooops, SHOULD have read "By
all means, stake her, but USE her first? -- Earl Allison, 03:27:21
02/21/02 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only one. -- Etrangere,
10:18:24 02/21/02 Thu
>Sandy is subhuman,
She's not human. Not fully anway. putting her in a human hierarchy
is stupid and prejudiced. Other doesn't mean Inferrior.
>I'd have staked her, she probably killed lots of people.
I have no problem with staking her. It's about how you do it,
not about what you do.
Humans murderer have killed people, doesn't mean they don't have
some rights, doesn't mean they're subhuman or anyting like this,
does it ?
Ok, Sandy is a vampire, so she's not human, but she's a person.
I don't care about soul, vampires can feel, so they are persons.
Riley's violated her trust, that's what bothered me.
You're not only "good" because you're in the "good
side", because you bear the right team colors and fight for
the good ideas. You're good because you act fairly. Riley didn't.
>>Maybe that makes bad or something, but I don't see a problem
with it.
Don't think anyone is bad for what he thinks :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> It's not even the moral question
that bugs me... -- Dariel, 16:11:38 02/21/02 Thu
If you think someone/thing is so disgusting and evil that they
should be "put down" just for existing, what are you
doing getting intimate with them? There's a word for that: perversion!
Ick!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Potential *mega spoilers* if you haven't seen next week's
S6 preview -- Etrangere, 09:39:51 02/20/02 Wed
>>Now he's back. Fit and trim in his uniform. Contrasted
with the nakedness of Spike's "dead body." There is
a nakedness to Spike. He is what he is. Riley is a costume. A
creation. An inflated uniform.
It's funny that in Restless, both their "costumes" were
underlines, Riley by being the Cow-Boy in Willow's dream (because
he was the first to take the part, indeed !), Spike hiring himself
as an attraction and making a show of his Big Bad personna in
Giles' dream.
This was the answer to Something Blue, which theme was Good Guy
vs. Bad Boy for relation ship, and Buffy wondering why she wanted
the Bad Boy :)
Except it isn't right, it's only a show, and Riley is as much
truly a Good Cow Boy Guy that Spike is still the Big Bad.
The two other appearand of Riley and Spike in Restless, has also
similarities. They were both linked to Family and Autority, but
in a very different way.
In Xander's dream, Spike is a part of the Scoobie Family, learning
to be a Watcher and like a son to Giles. Buffy was acting childlike
and called Xander her brother to further the family theme.
In Buffy's dream, Riley is with his brother, Adam. He's the government,
and what he says, underlined by a very obvious gun, sounds threatening.
What you say about Spike being naked now is very interresting.
It's true that Spike has open his heart to Buffy, he's her truthteller,
and in DT he told her to open her eyes.
Riley on the other hand has runaway very quickly as soon as his
lies and dissimulations were discovered by Buffy. He could not
bear for her to see the real him, unperfect Riley.
He said she was closed to him, but wasn't he as reluctant to tell
her about how he felt ?
Well, Riley was Cow Boy Guy in the Season that had Pangs in it,
and he was in Willow's dream. So that's clear it can't be a very
good thing, can it ?
I think As You Were will be the Crush of this Season, the symetric
appearance of old love of Buffy to reveal more about the B/S relationship.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> riley discussion cont. -- abby, 12:21:55 02/20/02
Wed
The way in which Buffy's relationships have evolved as her character
does is one of the things I enjoy most about this show (pick one,
pick any!). Could we ever imagine the s2 Buffy, so repelled by
Angelus and the evil she saw within the vampire, ever face that
'evil'/ soulless spike with the understanding of her own dark
side as she does now? And am I right in thinking that s1 Buffy
would have run a mile from Riley and his safety/authoritarian
representation?
The fact is that each male figure is very specific to the stage
of development she was experiencing in that series, even if he
had returned wanting to pick up, Riley would have been turned
down eventually. Buffy is changed now- she has revealed new facets
of her personality to herself; Just as I doubt even a theoretical
Buffy/Angel reunion would work.
ps- I just have to say that this board is peeling away levels
and layers to the show I never saw before....in an altogether
'this could be unhealthy soon' way :) Thanks all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: riley discussion cont. -- leslie, 14:22:25
02/20/02 Wed
I just want to know how she's going to tell him she was dead for
three and a half months. "So, what have you been up to?"
"Resting." Plus he doesn't know her mom died, does he.
Will *that* finally make him feel a little guilty? To me, that
was the final failure of Riley--all the other problems I could
see ways of working out, ways in which they were as much Buffy's
problems as his, but his complete incomprehension of what it is
like to have a seriously ill mother was unforgiveable. So what
if all he wanted was to be there for her--how DARE he make judgements
on what she needed to do to get through that?
And while we're on the subject, how did the Scoobies manage child
social services or whatever for Dawn while Buffy was dead? I mean,
she was buried in a cemetary, I think you need a real death certificate
for that, and that isn't something you can hide from the people
in charge of seeing to the care of minors. Did Giles take responsibility
for Dawn? Because, loyal and devout as Spike might be, I don't
see a government agency saying, "Yeah, sure, the vampire
can take care of the fifteen-year-old. Give us a call if you need
food stamps." Or even, "Sure, the two lesbian college
girls can take care of the fifteen-year-old." Not in this
California.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Err... I think you missed some episodes...
-- Traveler, 16:01:47 02/20/02 Wed
Angel DOES know that Buffy's mom died. He showed up and comforted
her after the funeral. He also knows that Buffy died and was resurrected.
Willow called him both times.
I don't know if Child Services regularly checks the obituaries
to see if the legal guardian is dead. The BuffyBot presumably
stood in for Buffy at meetings.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Err... I think you missed something
as well... -- Philistine, 22:23:40 02/20/02 Wed
Leslie appears to have been talking about Riley, not Angel. Riley
almost certainly DOESN'T know about any of that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Interesting, Etrangere! Something bothered me in the
promo--I wonder what you'll think about it. -- Dyna, 16:46:37
02/20/02 Wed
Etrangere, by mentioning "Crush," you've touched on
something that bothered me very much from the promo--the scenes
of Buffy and Riley confronting Spike in his undercrypt. Spike
is shirtless--undressed, as has been mentioned, symbolically and
literally defenseless against (human) Riley. Riley and Buffy,
in contrast, are armed and dressed in matching black turtleneck
outfits--"armored" and visually united against Spike.
But what disturbed me most were the couple of very fast clips
at the beginning of the promo, seemingly from the same scene,
which show (a) Buffy blasting away, in the crypt, with a large
gun, and (b) the lamp next to Spike's bed exploding.
I know, I realize the danger of reading too much into the promos.
But I've been having a hard time coming up with a scenario in
which Buffy's actions, even her presence in the crypt with Riley,
could be explained benignly. It seems so cruel, and strange, given
how important Spike's crypt has been to her since her resurrection--all
indications were that this was a space that had significance to
her, where she felt she could be herself, or at least experience
some rare peace and calm.
But then, thinking about this as an S6 revision of "Crush,"
I can sort of see the parallel between Buffy going on a self-righteous
anti-vampire tear with Riley and Spike's walkabout with Dru in
"Crush"--an attempt, maybe, to reclaim an old "identity"
by hooking up with a person who embodies that identity, and acting
according to their expectations.
If that's true, I imagine Buffy will fail, as Spike did--she can't
be "as she was" anymore, as much as she'd like to. Still,
I wonder what the fallout will be for Buffy and Spike. I was spoiled
for Riley's reappearance a couple of months ago, and I expected
it would cause some problems, but I really didn't imagine Buffy
would team up with Riley and turn on Spike so overtly. Ignore
Spike, blow him off, act like he never existed, yes, these would
be in character for our Buffy, but weapons? Yikes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Very good points, I answered were you copyed
the post upper -- Etrangere, 10:49:59 02/21/02 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Potential *mega spoilers* if you haven't seen next week's
S6 preview -- Jonx, 16:10:03 02/20/02 Wed
Spike encourage's Buffy's self-fulfillment? After that you belong
in the shadows comment how can you say that? Riley may have had
flaws (he is human afterall) but he and Spike share the idea (subsconscious
or not) of dragging Buffy down.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Riley=oafish dude -- Eric, 19:41:38 02/21/02 Thu
I never prefered Riley as Buffy's boyfriend. Of course, I never
really cared for Angel, Spike, or any other either. _I_ should
be Buffy's boyfriend. :) Seriously, though, I think you (and others)overstate
Riley's Buffy intimidation. He was at first, with repeated confrontations
and competitions. But after a while he consistently maintained
and demonstrated he'd gotten over it. Especially in the Twin Xander
ep, where he told Buffy he wanted her in her entirety - Slayer,
ice skating thing and all. What alienated him from Buffy I think
had more to do with two things. One, as Xander described it, was
being treated as "rebound guy". The other is that while
he had no fear of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he could not get used
to the Buffyverse. He went from being part of a rational scientific
military operation into the medieval night. He chose the military.
I suppose you can fault him for that, along with the others you
mention, but no character in the series is without his or her
moments of stupidity/cruelty.
One thing that absolutely confounds me is that you think of him
as "hypermasculine". Riley is an Iowa farm boy with
no real life experience beyound his specialized training. Fittingly,
they cast Mark Blucas - who looks like an underwear model with
a gym membership. Compare him to Angel and Spike. I suppose the
only thing we could do is open a new thread to discuss what masculinity
is...
As for Riley the inflated uniform thing. You may very well be
right. He certainly had some of those attributes. But having known
some soldiers (even a handful of the elite variety) I can tell
you that BtVS has almost the worst portrayal of our uniformed
services I've ever seen on TV. He'd look stuffed no matter what.
Finally, Buffy herself put it best when Riley asked her what he'd
be without his identity as a good soldier: "A good man".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Ah, youth! ... (venturing OT with discussion of military
in the media) -- verdantheart, 06:20:25 02/22/02 Fri
Having grown up with MASH, I was more than used to--and tired
of--the one-note portrayal of the military in nearly all movies
and TV series as, basically, either boors or jokes (the military
intelligence = oxymoron phenomenon). So I guess the portrayal
we saw on Buffy really didn't phase me--particularly since it
was so unrealistic. After all, they had a researcher giving the
orders to the commandos, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense
to me.
Side note for those who are familiar with the short-lived series
War of the Worlds (season 1, anyway). It seemed to me that the
part of Ironhorse was initially written in a shallow, one-note
fashion, but the actor (Richard Chaves) was not willing to portray
the character in that way and gave him depth virtually without
dialog. Later on in the season, the character was given more of
a real personality. But it was interesting to me, living through
the period that this role became one of the first positive military
characters in a long while, and at the beginning of a trend toward
the kinds of characters you tend to see today.
During that time (the late 70s) I really got the feeling that
some folks in the media were rather embarrassed by their behavior
during the late 60s and tended to express that by treating military
characters as victims at best, jokes at worst.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Riley=oafish dude -- Rattletrap, 07:01:53 02/22/02
Fri
"What alienated him from Buffy I think had more to do with
two things. One, as Xander described it, was being treated as
"rebound guy". The other is that while he had no fear
of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he could not get used to the Buffyverse.
He went from being part of a rational scientific military operation
into the medieval night."
I think both of those things are good observations, but I'd add
one more: After Riley's chip removal in OomM, Buffy would not
let him patrol or go out and fight demons. That seemed to destroy
some of the most fundamental common ground on which their relationship
was built. More to the point, I think Riley always saw it as a
bit of an attack on his identity--he had defined himself as "soldier
boy" and was unable to continue with that definition when
his girlfriend was going out to fight the good fight and leaving
him home. The "cute and weak and kitteny" conversation
in NPLH really showcases this very nicely.
P.S.-off topic
Eric, e-mail me please, the link on the posting name will do it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Riley=oafish dude (POSSIBLE SPOILERS) --
DEN, 09:29:48 02/22/02 Fri
And he does return to the military--not least because he is convinced
the things they know about him are to his credit. He's valued
there for who he is and what he can do. And even the "public"
info about next week's ep suggests that in fact Riley has come
back quite nicely from his dark night of the soul. Living well
is the best revenge--even for straight-arrow Iowa farmboys!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally OT (Sorry Masq!) - Got my first date in 5 years tonight!
-- Marie, 08:40:05 02/20/02 Wed
And I'm so nervous! I can't stop thinking about it, so that's
why I'm typing this... butterflies...
Sorry. Stopping now.
M
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Woo-hoo! You go, girl!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 08:44:14 02/20/02
Wed
It's about time we had some more good news around here...I'll
be thinking about you, sweetie.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Thanks, d-d! I only hope he likes our Buffy! -- Marie,
08:47:01 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Woo-hoo! You go, girl!! ;o) I second the motion!
-- CW, 08:52:26 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> No worries, Marie. When I finally get a date, I'll throw
a party on the board. ; ) -- Masq, 09:24:37 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What's a date?! Why wasn't I told about this?! -- Dedalus,
09:38:32 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> "Date" like the dried up fruit? No thanks.
Something about wrinkly fruit that I don't like. -- Deeva, 11:18:00
02/20/02 Wed
Oh, you meant the "interact with another person, with potential
for a l'il sumthin, sumthin later on".
Good luck and have fun! Hope you guys connect on many levels!
Wait, I didn't mean "connect" like, you know, physically.
Cause it's just a first date and well...I hope he likes Buffy,
too! ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I think it has to do with cup o' tea, cup o' tea...
;-) ....hehehehe -- Solitude1056, 12:14:49 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Take a deep breath, relax and have a great time! -- Dichotomy,
12:29:13 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> wait a minute... does this mean you can't write on our project?
;) j/k HAVE FUN! -- Liq, 12:33:29 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> *chuckling* -- VampRiley, 12:58:25 02/20/02 Wed
When I hear or see people getting nervous like this, about dates,
I chuckle. No malice intended. It's just people twitching and
squirming about dates makes me smile and chuckle slightly.
Sorry.
*chuckling*
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Totally OT (Sorry Masq!) - Got my first date in 5 years
tonight! -- DEN, 13:09:04 02/20/02 Wed
If it was five years, all I can say is that there are a lot of
guys out there who are dead from the neck up and paralyzed from
the waist down!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Congratulations! I havn't had one in longer than that. --
vampire hunter D, 14:20:23 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Was it you? -- pagangodess, 16:06:08 02/20/02 Wed
Is is the guy you talked about on that little known Valentine's
thread? The friend you asked out and then... Well, congrats. You
are so brave! If I had to be out in the dating circle, I'd be
scared %#@&less.
I too hope he likes Buffy. Then again, does not matter, because
if he likes you, liking Buffy is a given (part of the package).
pagan
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Thank you all! Just letting you know I had a great
time! -- Marie, 01:20:17 02/21/02 Thu
(pagan - not the same one. That was years ago.)
Nice meal, great conversation and even better kiss! I'm still
on a high, and he's bringing takeout and a video round on Friday.
(Though of course I'll be bringing out the BtVS videos!)
And today is Buffy/Angel day! *Contented sigh*.
I promise I'll never bore you on this subject again, and thanks
for your good wishes and patience.
Marie
just one p.s. - his name is Liam! What's a girl to do?!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Thank you all! Just letting you know I had
a great time! -- DEN, 04:26:57 02/21/02 Thu
OUT-BLEEPING-STANDING!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Liam? Just wait a while before you start calling
him you-know-what! ;o) -- CW, 05:52:09 02/21/02 Thu
Hope, he'll enjoy the Buffy!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to wonder... ;) -- RabidHarpy, 08:58:29 02/20/02 Wed
In a television show like BtVS where all the action is located
in Sunnydale CALIFORNIA, why, oh why aren't the Scoobies ever
at the beach frolicking in the sun and sand? Obviously we understand
why Spike wouldn't be joining them, but seriously! The Scoobies,
(with the exception of Anya's "Charlie's Angel's" Hallowe'en
outfit) don't even wear SHORTS!
Joss doesn't take nearly enough advantage of all that glorious
California sunshine! I think I've only seen 2 episodes where the
Scoobies were on the beach - the ep where the high school swim-team
turned into creatures from the "Black Lagoon", (and
even then, the party was at night and everyone was wearing jackets
and long pants), and the ep where the gang goes on a picnic and
Willow tries to light the BBQ and ends up creating a thunder storm!
What is UP with that?!?! With everyone bundled up in jackets and
long pants all the time, you'd think they lived somewhere in CANADA
for heaven's sake!!! (Actually that's not true, most of us have,
at one time or another, worn shorts on warm, sunny days when there
was still snow on the ground - lol!)
I'm just curious, because even though the eps take place (or at
least are played) during our fall and winter seasons, they are
filmed during the summer... I'm not asking for "Baywatch",
people (yikes!) - but if I lived in Sunnydale, (unless some sort
of Loch-Ness-type monster occupied the California coast-waters),
I'd be at the beach at LEAST every second weekend!!!
(Does the fact that SMG has a really big/obvious tattoo on her
ankel have anything to do with it, do you think?!)
Any thoughts or theories?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Not so strange, really! -- Marie, 09:03:34 02/20/02 Wed
I rarely go to the beach, and we have some lovely ones nearby.
Or to the mountains, or the lakes, for that matter.
I occasionally take my kid, but not as much as he'd like, I'm
sure.
It's not laziness, either, just so much else to do at the weekends
- shopping, washing, cleaning, 'sigh'...
M
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Not so strange, really! -- leslie, 09:36:43 02/20/02
Wed
I live two miles from the Santa Monica beach and I think I've
been down there twice in the last year. In fact, I *need* to go
down to a shop on the Venice boardwalk and I keep putting it off--for
one thing, parking is a bitch! It's like no-one who lives in New
York ever goes to the Empire State Building unless they have people
visiting from out of town. But more to the point, Sunnydale appears
to be inland. All the establishing shots show it nestled against
mountains. The thing about southern California is that while it
all looks like one long urban sprawl from Santa Barbara to San
Diego, in practical terms, you live within a fairly limited range
of your house and your office or school because, since it's so
decentralized, everything you need is available locally. There's
no "downtown" to go to because that's where all the
shopping is--shopping is all over and everywhere. Likewise with
restaurants, theaters, etc. As far as I can tell from my friends
who grew up here, if you live *right* at the beach, you hang out
at the beach, but if you're any further inland than the immediate
beach communities, you don't go there any more often than someone
who lives miles inland and makes a specific trip as a special
occasion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Yes--that's how it was for me, too -- Masq,
in-lander from Orange, California, 13:55:34 02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> And... -- Masq, 13:58:00 02/20/02 Wed
You could always tell who the tourists were--the ones wearing
shorts when it wasn't the 80+ days of summer.
To a Californian, it's friggin' cold when it's below 75! Shorts?
That's insane!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: And... -- leslie, 14:25:28 02/20/02
Wed
My favorites are, in fact, the British tourists, who feel the
need to strip down to their underwear when it gets *above* 75
degrees.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> How nice it is that Californians
can make fun of everyone -- JBone, 20:50:30 02/20/02 Wed
As a native South Dakotan, I have a habit of wearing shorts out
occasionally in the harsh north Texas winter when the town is
frozen over. 35 degrees is freezing? Since when, and how? If it's
windy, sure, that's chilly, but I can wear shorts comfortably
down to 20 degrees. With a decent jacket of course. I laugh at
those all bundled up like they might die of exposure or something.
Wimps.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You'd fit right in,
here in Arizona -- CW, 05:42:04 02/21/02 Thu
You see people wearing heavy coats beside people wearing shorts
and t-shirts all the time in the winter here. It can get below
30 here in the morning, but almost every day it gets above 65
in the afternoon. You almost never see a coat or jacket at noon
even if it's chilly because you know it's not going to stay that
way. And it stays warm well into the evening. Same temperature
pattern happens in summer. It's cool and nice in the morning.
So everybody runs around and get's everything done before it gets
to be above 110 in the afternoon. Then they hide in the AC till
the next morning.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Not so strange, really! -- Chiomaca - a
newbie, so be gentle, 21:05:53 02/20/02 Wed
I thought Sunnydale had to be on the ocean, since there seems
to be a fairly substantial shipping industry there, (judging from
the docks we've seen in a few episodes.) But Leslie's right -
I live in San Diego and work right on the waterfront, but I rarely
go near the beach on my free time. And don't forget the ocean
breeze - it can be quite chilly for those of us with thin blood!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Better a thin blooded newbie than a thin
skinned newbie.....;) -- Rufus, 22:05:00 02/20/02 Wed
I live right by the ocean and never go there.....I guess I just
take it for granted.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> welcome, chiomaca! (was it my turn to
do the welcome? nobody told me...) -- anom, 12:04:42 02/21/02
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the welcome! I'm not
at all thin-skinned (and I'm usually polite...) -- Chiomaca, 18:10:13
02/21/02 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I say that about being
polite too...........sometimes I lie....:):):) -- Rufus, 00:55:45
02/22/02 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sometimes you lie?!
I'm shocked. :-) -- VampRiley, 06:38:21 02/22/02 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> So, I take it
I'm not your hero anymore...champion and all.....;) -- Rufus,
06:57:15 02/22/02 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I' might
warm up if you gave me chocolate to make me feel better. To turn
my frown upside down. -- VampRiley, 08:02:03 02/22/02 Fri
And a cat!
Something small and cuddly like Miss fantastico. She was funny.
Oh. Hey. Bad thought.
Maybe the cattress (cat actress? does that sound right?) got hurt
or even killed since we last saw her.
:-(
Sad now,
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Would
that be ****Canadian Chocolate??****.....I'm very generous with
goodies.....:):) -- Rufus, 11:07:18 02/22/02 Fri
You'd like my latest kitty.....Buffy (name to piss off husband
who is stuck with Buffy for many years now)she is a tiny Black
kitten with white chest and tummy....she's quite a scrapper.....and
naughty....she has a thing for ears...:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Canadian Chocolate? Always good. -- VampRiley, 11:22:12 02/22/02
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Buffy, huh? -- VampRiley, 11:26:32 02/22/02 Fri
Well "Buffy" sounds to me suspiciously like LoveSpellWillow.
Specifically when she was in Xander's bedroom.
LoveSpellWillow was "naughty" and had "a thing
for ears" too.
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
if it's warming up you want, there's nothing like *hot* chocolate
-- anom, 18:46:49 02/23/02 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> that
brings up a question: -- anom, 18:44:33 02/23/02 Sat
"Something small and cuddly like Miss fantastico. She was
funny."
Who got custody of Miss Kitty Fantastico when Willow & Tara split
up?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Not so strange, really! -- LeeAnn, 21:11:16 02/20/02
Wed
When my family lived near a beach for 3 years we went to it twice.
Once we moved away we would drive for 12 hours each way to spend
a week on it.
Weird, huh?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Saved By the Bell 90210 action!! -- neaux, 09:16:34 02/20/02
Wed
Yeah... they always fast forward the summer months it seems..
they really could the 90210/saved by the bell summer months episodes..
but honestly I dont think I'd want to watch it.
Also Spike and a sunny beach wouldnt mix very well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- juliaabra, 09:33:48 02/20/02
Wed
i've reasoned it this way: sunnydale is not in southern california
but further north and not near the beach either but more inland
and is perhaps located in the foothills of a mountain range. i
think we've seen mountains encircling the town when we've seen
long shots. the arts and crafts bungalows that everyone seems
to live in make me think of claremont which is about 30 miles
to the east of la, and the high school (and parts of the university)
looked just like my college, scripps. however, there are probably
many other areas in california which were built up during the
late 19th and early 20th centuries which would look like claremont.
all that aside, if the town were further north and east it would
eliminate easy trips to the beach and perhaps necessitate warmer
clothing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- Wolfhowl3, 09:43:36 02/20/02
Wed
I just want to point out, that there are part of California that
are farther north then Parts of Canada. (check the maps of you
don't beleive me.)
Wolfie
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Okay, I checked the map. -- LadyStarlight, 12:27:16
02/20/02 Wed
And as a CDCW, um, what map are you looking at? 'Cause I can't
figure it out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Well I'll be darned... turns out this is a true
fact! -- GreatRewards, 14:20:47 02/20/02 Wed
The California city of Yreka is 22 miles south of the Oregon border.
It sits at Latitude 41°43'N.
The most southerly land feature of Canada is Middle Island in
Lake Erie at latitude 41°41'N (which is actually farther South
than Yreka). Middle Island is at the same latitude as the Klamath
Mountains of northern California; Great Salt Lake, Utah; Des Moines,
Iowa; and Chicago, Ill.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Okay, I checked the map. -- matching mole,
14:24:02 02/20/02 Wed
It's true, although not obviously unless you trace lines of latitude
across the continent. The northern border of California is the
same latitude as the base of Point Peelee in extreme southern
Ontario. So a tiny fraction of Canada is further south than the
northern edge of California.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> And that little bit is hundreds of miles
from Sunnydale -- Masq, 15:08:54 02/20/02 Wed
Which is Santa Barbara, by the way, not the "Valley"
The Valley has plenty of Neiman-Marcus', and SD is of course,
two hours away on the freeway from the nearest one.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> I believe the Valley referernce
referred to hemery high and Buffy's childhood -- Dochawk, 15:50:40
02/20/02 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- Apophis, 11:41:56 02/20/02
Wed
If you lived in a town built on a Hellmouth, filled with vampires,
demons, werewolves, fish-people, psychotic robots, dragons (after
The Gift), and ghosts, would you really trust the local ocean?
If that's the kind of stuff that lives on land, just think of
what the Hellmouth energies could be attracting in the seas.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- Rendyl, 12:34:25 02/20/02
Wed
Actually RH makes a good point about clothing. I live deep in
the south (about an hour/hour and half from the beach) and while
Buffy and comp are frolicking in leather jackets and sweaters
I am wearing shorts and t-shirts. My little girl wears a (very
light) jean jacket in the early mornings. I don't even own a coat.
This (the winter clothing in what should be a warm climate) is
pretty much as jarring for me to watch as some of the other issues
brought up this week are for other viewers.
(proving if you get hip deep in paint scrapings and don't check
the board it will go places without you...cough)
As for the beach, (grin) we go once or twice a month most of the
year. Maybe monster stopping just doesnt allow for much time on
the beach?
Ren
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Serial TV Writers -- Dochawk,
13:26:40 02/20/02 Wed
Go Fish certainly implies that Sunnydale is on the ocean. And
Buffy is a Valley Girl. they spend as much time at the beach as
they do at the mall. Buffy didn't lose her taste for shopping,
can't believe she would give Beaches up. on the other hand, I
am sure Willow was warned against the sun by her science minded
mother.
Even if Sunnydale isn't on the ocean, its in southern california
(I always think of it as Newhall or Simi Valley (whitebread SC
communities)transported to Bakersfield for location (any place
in 909 would work too). but the things is these places are hot,
9 months of the year. they absolutely should be wearing shorts/bikini's
alot more frequently.
But we have seen several instances where the consistancy isn't
exactly pure. Did the SG place a warding off spell at the Summer's
home for Spike between Becoming II and The Gift? Was the chip
olny activated after Spike left the Initiative or were those doctors
demons? I know there are others, but I can't think of them now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Serial TV Writers
-- Rattletrap, 15:11:00 02/20/02 Wed
I can answer at least one of these:
"Did the SG place a warding off spell at the Summer's home
for Spike between Becoming II and The Gift?"
Yes, Willow did a de-invite spell in Crush.
As to the clothes and climate issue: This has mildly annoyed me
the whole time I've watched the show--the clothes don't fit with
Southern California temperatures, except for a few times during
the winter. It is even more problematic if we accept Joss's statement
that Sunnydale "is" Santa Barbara to mean that the two
are in about the same place.
That said, I'm even more bothered by the fact that all of these
characters get more dressed up to go to class (or even just sit
around the house) than anyone I've ever known. Whatever happened
to faded jeans and a sweatshirt on a college campus? Oh well,
there are some things we probably just shouldn't think too hard
about :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Serial TV
Writers -- tost, 16:03:47 02/20/02 Wed
Then Buffy invited Spike in again in "The Gift"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Serial TV
Writers -- Rahael, 04:47:30 02/21/02 Thu
Don't really know whether I should admit this, but I used to get
dressed up nearly every day for classes, or at least think carefully
about what I wore. Just added a bit more interest to the day.
I'll admit, I'm a clothes horse.
Re Buffy clothes debate - people have different tolerances to
cold - I get warm very quickly, and my two friends always felt
the cold. So often when we went out, I would be wearing a shirt
and skirt and no coat, and they would be wearing trousers, vest,
shirt, jumper and a voluminous coat. And scarves and woolly hats
sometimes. Could be that with standing around and filming, plus
the camara's illusion of there being more light than there actually
is, the actors get colder than we'd expect.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Does it always rain at night? -- Cleanthes,
06:56:53 02/21/02 Thu
Buffy has to wear more clothes when she's going to fight so that
the switch to the stunt woman will not look so jarring. Even were
they to find a stunt woman as slight as Buffy, there would need
to be somewhere to hide the padding.
Over on Roswell, every time there's a scene at night, the pavement's
wet. But, it don't rain much in NM, and when it does, it's more
likely thunderstorms during the day than gentle rain at night.
Sunnydale has wet streets at night rather too much, too.
Of course, they do look a lot better than most people of their
age. They're way tidier, too! Riley never has to do windows, even
though he could reach the high ones, because they clean themselves.
Even in Spike's crypt, the spider webs arrange themselves artistically
rather than in that icky way that spider webs really do.
In the tension between the escapism function of TV and the desire
for realism and authenticity, excapism will always win. And that
means the streets will be wet and photogenic at night.
Hey, the bands at the Bronze are consistently better than at any
club I've ever heard of.
You can seldom get 50% of people to dress up for Halloween except
in Sunnydale. Oz's "god" costume is the norm in the
rest of the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> only in camelot! -- anom, 11:14:39 02/21/02
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Rationalizing Animal - aka Chip Speculation
-- Philistine, 22:55:56 02/20/02 Wed
Perhaps the chip was learning? If the chip's function is based
on detecting and reacting to patterns of activity in Spike's brain,
then the chip might have to build its threat library before it
could start doing its job in earnest. It's been a while since
I watched that ep, but doesn't Spike seem to become progressively
less violent over the course of the episode? He fought his way
out of the Initiative, but then was unable to bite Willow; by
the end he tried to fight the Initiative capture team but according
to (Forrest?) he "can't hardly hit anymore."
Of course, if the chip is actually a functioning soul detector
this idea doesn't work so well - but then I *really* don't like
the idea of the chip as soul detector for several reasons, not
least of which is that the Initiative didn't seem to place much
emphasis on (or even acknowledge) the metaphysical side of the
demon-hunting biz.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The Rationalizing Animal - aka Chip Speculation
-- Cleanthes, 07:14:42 02/21/02 Thu
The chip could be a functioning soul detector without the Initiative
understanding that that is what it was doing. Assume that the
initiative discovered some systematic aspect of "HST's"
that was different from humans. They would explain the difference
scientifically -- perhaps one of the 11 dimensions of super-string
theory seems unravelled for HST's in some slightly detectable
way; the spin on the neutrino's is off maybe. BUT, the human soul
taps into the anagogic perspective in a characteristic way and
defines the human. All this information is inaccessible to the
scientific analysis by definition. Apodictically, then, the chip
is scientifically detecting souls but the science can never be
understood. I refer you to Wittgenstein's `On Certainty` for more...
Just kidding, pretty much, btw.
Nevertheless, and it's this thought that moves me to post: Tara
says Buffy's not "wrong". The chip, though, says she's
no human. Shouldn't Buffy try to get someone to compare the impulse
given off by the chip when Spike hits a human and a demon and
her to see how it differs. Following my "anagogic aura of
the soul" theory above, maybe Spike could have hit St. Theresa,
too. (sorry, this is a reference to threads some months ago, but
I've been out of the loop for awhile)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: The Rationalizing Animal - aka Chip
Speculation -- Rufus, 09:32:43 02/21/02 Thu
On St Theresa.....Buffy called herself "Joan" in Tabula
Rasa, and there was that visual of St Theresa....so my question
is (if you assume the Joan could be Joan of Arc)what do both these
female figures have in common?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> St Theresa and St Joan of Arc *Spoilery
and speculative* -- Rahael, 10:07:57 02/21/02 Thu
Rufus, you've obviously heard the spoilers floating around that
Buffy's stint in heaven, or her belief in her stint in heaven
is not all as it initially was presented to us. I speculate that
this is the storyline that the writers 'have been misleading'
us about. I might be completely wrong.
Do you think we were misled by a Buffy who clearly believes she
was in Heaven but wasn't?
Of course the spoilers could be wrong, but St Theresa and St Joan
were two very strong women who had intense spiritual experiences.
Those who don't believe in God have explained these away in a
variety of ways, including those who say that both women might
have been epileptic.
Its interesting that if you look at Tabula Rasa, which dealt with
a profoundly mind altering experience, Buffy experienced a kind
of joy which came from leaving behind her every day experiences
and taking on a new identity, that of 'Joan', an identity where
she was able to embrace her destiny with gusto.
When memory and the everyday world returned, her spirits crashed.
So, are the writers trying to tell us that Buffy's stint in heaven,
might have been joyful, but ultimately she had to 'crash down
to earth'? Is the little journey in TB, from the bliss of forgetting
to the pain of remembrance an echo of her being torn from heaven?
So that could be the connection between the image of Theresa and
Buffy's name in TB, a thematic connection between 'heaven' and
'hell'. Joan is compounded image of heaven and hell - since some
denounced her as a heretic and witch, and others a saint. And
Joan of course, ended by being burnt - and we have a thematic
connection here with OMWF. Walking through the fire, Buffy might
melt away like Joan.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Rationalizing Animal - aka
Chip Speculation -- dream of the consortium, 10:12:21 02/21/02
Thu
Well, the only thing I can come up with off the top of my head
for Saints Theresa and Joan is visions. Both had intense visions,
and both believed in them thoroughly, despite the questioning
of those around them. That's not unusual among the saints, but
it is far from universal. Also, both these saints were very headstrong,
independent, powerful women. That is not as uncommon as you might
expect among female Catholic saints, but there are an awful lot
of meek, humble, spent-my-whole-life-in-obedience saints that
would make no sense in relationship to Buffy, so both Theresa
and Joan work in that light. Surely there's someone on the board
who can come up with more than that.
Individually, I do find the choice of St. Theresa interesting,
because she not only experienced ecstasies and religious visions,
I blieve including visions of heaven (though I may be misremembering
that), but she described her experiences in highly eroticized
language. For a woman who has been torn from heaven and seems
to be finding relief from the pain of that experience by immersing
herself in sexuality, the sex/religion co-joining in St. Theresa
would presumably resonate. Buffy's heaven seemed to be more womblike
than ecstatic, however. And Joan - well, Joan was a warrior and
a martyr, and Buffy is both of those as well. I wonder how strongly
the name Joan resonates for people, however. Do most people think
of St. Joan when they hear "Joan"? I do, but, then again,
I was raised Catholic, and Joan was my confirmation name. ME may
have chosen it as something generic, like "Anne".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Rationalizing Animal - aka
Chip Speculation -- Cleanthes, 20:02:14 02/22/02 Fri
Both women had, perhaps, glimpsed where Buffy was after she died.
That would be where anagogic information is held, stuff like where
missing socks go, and why mathematics works so well as a tool
of science, and why cats claw furniture. The great mysteries.
This place pretty fast anymore. I didn't want to miss posting
before this scrolls off. I wanted to write up some more elaborate
answer, but this will have to do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- matching mole, 14:36:10
02/20/02 Wed
I've always thought it was odd that we didn't see more beach scenes.
According to the lore I've heard Sunnydale is supposed to be based
on Santa Barbara which is right on the coast. If the show was
inland the climate would, as Dochawk says, be really hot for a
large fraction of the year. My wife lived in Riverside for a year
and a half and I visited regularly. We only went to the coast
(90 miles away) once in that time but I wore shorts a lot. We
also went hiking in the mountains most weekends but then I imagine
we are more outdoorsy than the Scoobies.
Speaking of regional clothing patterns I noticed when I lived
there that people in Phoenix fell into two groups. One that regarded
anything colder than 75-80 F as cause for a jacket (and anything
below 60 F as cause for a Parka!) and those, like myself, whose
transition from fall to winter consisted of wearing jeans instead
of shorts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- purplegrrl, 15:29:26 02/20/02
Wed
I've also heard that Sunnydale is based on Santa Barbara. Although
the high school scenes were done somewhere else (Torrence if I
remember correctly). Sunnydale isn't really inland -- it has a
port. Both Angel and Faith had the opportunity to take a cargo
ship to somewhere else. Harbor needs to be fairly deep for large
ships of that kind.
As for clothing types: The Pacific current is cold water. Breezes
coming off the water tend to be very cool. Hence jacket-wearing
weather. (I've been to the beach near Santa Maria at Christmas
and it can be pretty cold. Alright, not freezing or anything.
But you want a coat.)
As for not going to the beach: The Scooby Gang is caught up in
demon fighting, wedding planning, Spellcasters Anonymous, and
Dawn-sitting. Not to mention working and shagging. Sometimes there
is just not enought hours in the day/week/month to just go hang
out at the beach/mountains/etc. Maybe they figure it's always
there, they can go whenever they want, but just never get around
to it. I grew up 30 minutes from the mountains and hardly ever
went.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- Santa Barbara, 16:12:47
02/20/02 Wed
Being a native of Santa Barbara, California, the Scoobie Gang's
beach going activities and fashons aren't unusual at all. First
of all while the weather is sunny, the ocean is COLD. So cold
in fact my mom moved to Florida so she could swim AND sunbathe.
I myself spent very little time there. Its a curiosity of human
nature. Tourists from Europe (Germany mostly) practically lived
there. But for the natives, it was no big deal.
As for the clothing, its a matter of perspective. Buffy & Co.
are normally working in the winter and at night. A winter in S.B.
is ~35-55 degrees. To people from wintery places this is shorts,
T-shirt or at most sweater weather. But to natives its still considered
cold enough to warrant medium jackets, long trousers, etc. Also,
not every Californian wants to wear shorts and T-shirts all the
time. Gotta show off them long leather jackets, long skirts, euro
cut suits, etc. :)
BTW, has anyone commented that Willow typically wears cooler clothing
than Buffy? Really. Some of the dresses Buffy wore in season 1
& 2 were incredible. Now its all leather or jeans. (Yeah, yeah,
they make good tactical sense) Meanwhile, UPN marketing should
seriously consider selling a Willow fashion line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Vampires and temperature (OT and nerdy speculation)
-- matching mole, 17:55:30 02/20/02 Wed
This thread got me pondering acclimatization in humans and then
I moved on to vampires. The comments people have made in this
thread about temperatures being cold for Californians and moderate
to hot for other people have a physiological as well as a psychological
basis. If you live in a cold climate your body undergoes long
term changes that help you resist cold better. I've been swimming
in the ocean off Santa Barbara and elsewhere in southern California
and the water struck me as a more or less ideal temperature (the
ocean off northern California is a different case entirely) but
I can appreciate that the natives might think and feel differently.
Is the same true for vampires? Vampires are described as taking
on the ambient temperature of their surroundings, at least that's
what Angel implied this week in Couplet. Do they feel cold and
heat? I don't remember if this has come up in the show, other
than in the context of being set on fire. Given the resistance
of vampires to physical damage it seems unlikely that ambient
temperatures on the hot end are likely to hurt them. A body temperature
of 110 F would kill a human but presumably not a vampire. However
what would happen at lower temperatures? In coastal California
the temperature is unlikely to drop below freezing for more than
brief periods. However if vampires were exposed to below freezing
temperatures for very long their tissues might freeze, which might
not kill them but would make moving difficult. Because they don't
generate their own body heat wearing clothes is not going to keep
them warm for very long. Perhaps vamps in colder climates might
produce some sort of antifreeze like animals that live in polar
oceans. This way they could get really cold and still remain mobile.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Vampires and temperature (OT and nerdy speculation)(some
spoilers) -- Darby, 08:40:52 02/21/02 Thu
Vampires are room-temperature - that was established when the
Initiative was searching for Spike.
That has always bothered me - we humans are very sensitive to
temperature, especially experienced through contact - think cold
feet in bed - shouldn't it be extremely weird to kiss a vampire?
Dawn should have picked up on it in All The Way. Okay, first kiss,
but shouldn't Janice, who seemed more experienced, have at least
remarked that kissing her vamp was like kissing a lamp (unintended
poetry there)?
And then there's the shagging. Not to be too-much-information-guy,
but the experience with someone running a mild fever is bizarre
(in a good way, but still...); going at it with someone who is
as cold as a basement under a crypt...Kinda like sleeping on an
unheated waterbed (also bizarre, but not in a good way).
Forget "evil" - Buffy likes her men cold - literally!
And to weigh in on the whole clothing debate - isn't the crew
working in more or less the same climate as Sunnydale's? It seems
like if the wardrobe people dress the actors for September in
the studio parking lot, they're dressed for September in Sunnydale...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Vampire novel recommendation and room
temp discussion -- matching mole, 09:36:42 02/21/02 Thu
I had interpreted the room temperature statement by the initiative
to be simply a shorthand for the environmental temperature. It
doesn't seem like we have enough information to decide whether
vampires are ectotherms (i.e. 'cold-blooded') whose bodies take
on the ambient temperature or endotherms ('warm-blooded') with
a constant body temperature that is simply a lot colder than humans
(i.e. at room temperature). I apologize to the rest of the board
for the biological jargon. The former explanation makes more sense
from the point of view of vampires being animated corpses but
given that vampires on BtVS seem to retain a large number of other
life-like properties (eating, drinking, etc.) the correctness
of Darby's interpretation wouldn't surprise me either.
What put this into my head in the first place was the novel 'Blood-sucking
fiends' by Christopher Moore. This is a very entertaining book.
It's not a horror novel, in the sense that it doesn't focus on
darkness or try and scare the reader. Instead it's the story of
a woman who happens to get turned into a vampire and how she deals
with the situation. I think that many BtVS fans would enjoy it.
The physical nature of vampires is spelled out in the book in
a fair amount of detail because the heroine has no idea herself
of what she can and can't do and has to figure it out on her own.
In many respects it differs markedly from the Buffyverse. Most
notably vampires are rendered instantly and utterly comatose with
the rising of the sun, where-ever they might be, and remain that
way until sunset. Also vampires are unable to eat or drink anything
except blood (makes them nauseous). So I am not (repeat NOT) advocating
that the physical properties of vampires in the book be in any
way be interpreted as evidence for how things work in the Buffyverse.
But it does offer an interesting take on Darby's post. In 'Blood-sucking
Fiends' vampires are portrayed as completely ectothermic, they
take on the temperature of their surroundings. They can survive
being frozen solid but they remain comatose while frozen until
thawed out (the novel is set in San Francisco so the issue of
being frozen while outside doesn't come up). Before intimate physical
contact the vampire heroine takes a very hot shower to warm her
body up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Toasty Vamp flesh -- Farstrider,
15:29:52 02/21/02 Thu
Hi all, first post.
I was under the impression that in general vamp lore, vampires
who have recently fed are indistinguishable from living humans.
In other words, they have rosy cheeks and body temperature. Was
there no support for this in the show?
Also, is there any reason to believe that Angel has a different
body temperature thing going than Spike? If not, why couldn't
Buffy tell in "Angel"?
Farstrider
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Toasty Vamp flesh -- Darby,
17:04:31 02/21/02 Thu
Nothing like that has been established in the Buffyverse. We don't
really know where the blood goes, or how it's processed - there's
no circulation, so it's got to be something else...
And I guess the Buffy - Angel thing can be rationalized in the
same way I did the Dawn thing - that first passionate kiss is
so new on so many levels that you have no basis to judge what's
wrong.
But Janice should have - or other humans we've seen should at
least comment on it. Ford did when he shook Angel's hand in "Lie
to Me," and Xander apparently had noticed as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Toasty Vamp flesh
-- VampRiley, 06:32:32 02/22/02 Fri
There was a passing mention of where the blood goes in the Angel
episode "Darla":
ANGEL (re: Darla): And this one. Down and goosefeathers and the
finest silks and linens. Oh, and the view. She's always got to
have the view, don'tcha, my lamb?
The Master's eyes burn on Darla.
DARLA: We fed very recently. The blood is still hot in his veins.
ANGEL (nuzzling her): You noticed that, did you?
But other than this, I don't know of any other reference.
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Toasty Vamp flesh -- anom,
21:01:49 02/21/02 Thu
"Also, is there any reason to believe that Angel has a different
body temperature thing going than Spike? If not, why couldn't
Buffy tell in 'Angel'?"
If she didn't notice he went into full vamp-face while they were
kissing at the skating rink (What's My Line part I), she could've
missed him being cold in Angel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Vampires and temperature (OT and nerdy
speculation)(some spoilers) -- LadyStarlight, 10:46:13 02/23/02
Sat
Vampires are room-temperature - that was established when the
Initiative was searching for Spike.
Something that has bugged me about the whole 'Initiative finds
Spike in the dorm room by using a scanner' thing, perhaps someone
could explain this to me in words of one syllable or less -- how
would a room temperature vampire show up like a 98.6 degree human
does?
(goes away scratching head in puzzlement)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Vampires and temperature (OT
and nerdy speculation)(some spoilers) -- matching mole, 14:19:56
02/23/02 Sat
Less than one syllable? That's quite a challenge. I don't really
know the answer because I don't remember the details of what they
were supposed to be using to detect Spike. But I'll give it a
shot.
There are infrared detectors that measure the amount of heat being
given off by objects. You could use something like that to 'see'
objects after dark. I'm not very familiar with how these things
actually work but my impression is that if Spike was, in fact,
exactly the same temperature as his surroundings he would be undetectable.
However unless vampires have some sort of magic thermostat that
automatically resets their body temp to exactly that of their
surroundings it is unlikely that Spike was exactly the same temperature
as the room he was in (was he in a room or outside when they made
this statement?). He was moving around, through environments with
different temperatures. If you did the same thing to any solid,
man-sized object it would take it a while to cool down or heat
up when you moved it from one place to another. If Spike is constantly
at 'room temperature' then his body is set at some constant temperature.
That might match the temperature in some rooms but not all of
them. As long as Spike was colder or warmer than his surroundings
then he is potentially detectable.
Hope that helps and bear in mind that I don't realy know what
I'm talking about!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> This helps, thanks. -- LadyStarlight,
14:48:58 02/23/02 Sat
This was when he'd been sitting in Buffy's dorm room, angsting
about not being able to bite Willow.
However, your explanation makes sense. I just chalked it up to
a minor plot hole before now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- vampire hunter D, 19:28:52
02/20/02 Wed
I have been wondering about the cloths thing. I don't know where
Sunnydale is, but wouldn't SOuthern California (where the show
is filmed) be too warm for shorts? Hell, sometimes it's so cold
you can see the vapor of the actor's breath (which is bad if your
James Marsters).
Where is Buffy filmed? I thought it was LA but it looks to be
too cold for that
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- Spikesbitch, 21:37:44
02/20/02 Wed
I have always wondered about the warm clothing the characters
wear. I am British and when I went to Florida on holiday I practiacally
lived in shorts for the entire time and I noticed some people
more warmly wrapped up and couldn't understand it. I don't see
why the scoobies wear coats outdoors in California. If the sun
comes out in Britain most of us get incredibly excited and cast
coats aside and I haven't noticed much of a breeze in Sunnydale.
I remember one episode Teachers Pet when Giles commented on the
lovely weather and I thought if its so hot why is Giles in tweed
and Buffy has a huge leather jacket wrapped around her (although
to be fair Willow was wearing a T-shirt).
It is just one of those bizarre facts I have learned to accept
like the fact that Buffy and Dawn are on the breadline yet have
outfits to rival a supermodels wordrobe (can't they sell some
designer outfits as a way of making some quick cash?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- SKPE, 07:18:47 02/21/02
Thu
Why don't any of the scoobys have a car. In s calf it would
easyer to live without legs that to be carless
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Xander had a car in 'The Body', didn't he? --
Marie, 08:30:14 02/21/02 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: You have to wonder... ;) -- LadyStarlight,
08:46:38 02/21/02 Thu
Xander borrowed his Uncle Rory's car in 'The Zeppo', that's how
he saved Faith from the Sisterhood of Jhe, by ramming one of them
with said car.
He was trying to find his 'thing', as far as I can remember. Since
Oz pretty much had the whole 'musicanship' thing sewn up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Okay, Let's All Resolve To Get Out More Often!! -- Rachel,
09:04:10 02/21/02 Thu
Reading through the above posts, I often see the "I live
just a few minutes from (insert lovely nature spot) and I rarely
visit" as a sympathetic reason why Buffy is never at her
nearby beach.
I don't know about ME, but how about if all of us who live near
panoramic nature get out and take a hike/swim now and again. Do
it for Buffy. :-)
Rachel
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I think it's further irony on the part of Joss and Co. --
DaveW, 20:56:39 02/23/02 Sat
Where's the Hellmouth located? Gloomyvale? Evilton? Not-so-nice-ville?
No, it's in Sunnydale. Putting a show where a great deal of the
action happens at night in Cali is just more evidence of the inherently
contrary nature of Mr. Whedon, I think. It's along the same lines
as, oh, I don't know, a blonde bombshell being the one standing
between humanity and Hell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poll from the Buffy Cross and Stake... (Spoilers through OaFA)
-- Wynn, 12:35:28 02/20/02 Wed
Anya's Necklace posted a poll over at the Buffy Cross and Stake's
Spoiler Board, which I thought was interesting.
What are your top 5 dramatic moments and top 5 comedic moments
of BtVS?
Here are mine...
Dramatic-
Prophecy Girl- Buffy's "I Quit" speech. The two lines
"Do you think it'll hurt?" and "I'm only 16 years
old. I don't want to die" make me cry every time.
Blood Ties- The scene where Dawn cuts herself and questions whether
or not she is it is blood or if she is real.
The Gift- The entire episode, especially when Buffy and Giles
argue over the fate of Dawn, Buffy inviting Spike back into her
house, the entire last sequence of Buffy and Dawn on the tower,
and the voiceover at the end.
Passion- Jenny's death. It cemented the fact that Angel was truly
gone (well until Becoming 2) and that Angelus was truly evil.
Giles' reaction, Angelus voiceovers, and Buffy and Willow's reactions...
sniffle.
Becoming Part 2- *The* scene. She told him she loved him and she
kissed him and she killed him. :(
Comedic-
Tabula Rasa- Everything from the time the SG wake up amnesiacs
to when they get their memories back is hilarious. Especially
the interaction of Anya and Giles, "Randy" and Giles,
and "Randy" and "Joan".
Life Serial- Buffy's 3 jobs (I laughed so hard I cried at the
Magic Box sequence) plus DrunkBuffy and Spike hitting the demon
world complete with kitten poker and Spike-"Come on, someone
stake me?" Buffy-"I'll do it."
The Zeppo- Every scene with Xander was priceless.
Anya- All of Anya's one liners.
Spike- Ditto for Spike.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Poll from the Buffy Cross and Stake... (Spoilers through
OaFA) -- Amber, 13:44:22 02/20/02 Wed
Top 5 Dramatic
1. "Becoming" Part 1 : Whistler's voice over about "not
seeing the big ones coming..." etc. This is the first episode
that really hooked me on the show...
2. "Becoming" Part 2 : When Buffy tells her Mom she's
the Slayer and Joyce demands she quit. The whole scene is incredible.
3. "The Prom" : Jonathon's presentation of the "Class
Protector Award" I always tear up:)
4. "The Body" : The entire episode!
5. "Crossroads" : Buffy tells the Watcher's Council
that they're working for her now and sets down the rules. It really
shows how much she's grown!
Top 5 Comedies
1. "Lover's Walk" : Just about every moment that Spike's
on the screen! Especially the scene where his hand catches fire.
2. "Once More with Feeling" Buffy's first song and Anya's
Bunnies interlude.
3. "Hush" : The entire silent scene between Spike and
Xander when Xander tries to call Buffy.
4. "Lie to Me" : The scene with the Vamp want-to-be
and Spike. To paraphrase, "I've only been around you five
minutes and I can't stand you, I don't fancy you being here for
eternity." and everything else they say in that scene.
5. A tie: "Fear, Itself": when the fear demon is revealed.
Giles, "Xander don't taunt the fear demon." and equally
funny... but I can't remember the title, the one where Riley and
Angel meet. I wish those two could have more scenes together...their
jealousy makes for great comedy!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Hmmmm, tough choices -- vampire hunter D, 14:05:08 02/20/02
Wed
For me it would be
Dramatic:
Blood ties- When Dawn cuts herself (this scene always gets me)
the Gift-Buffy's death
Bargaining pt2- Dawn goes to Buffy on the tower (somethng about
he way Buffy asks "Is this Hell" in that pathetic little
girl voice really makes me feel for her)
Tabula Rasa-the ending sequence, whith Tara Leaving, Willow and
Dawn crying, and Buffy depressed at teh bar.
5x5 (angel)-at the end when Faith breaks down crying and begs
Angel to kill her.
Comedic:
B,B,&B- when Xander leads Cordelia out of the building saying
"I think we lost them", anly to be met by an angry female
mob lead by an ax-weilding Willow (This ep is one of the funniest
ever, and by far my favorite ep)
Tabula Rasa- all of it from when they wake up to when the crystal
breaks (Amazing how the same ep is the funniest and yet has one
of the saddest scenes ever)
Disharmony (angel)- the whole thing. It was the funniest Angel
ep, and has several funny scenes.
Intervention- Do I need to say it?
Guise will be Guise- the sequence right after teh demon left.
THere are like 3 or 4 funny conversations happening at the same
time, and the whole thing mixes to be really funny.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Hmmmm, tough choices -- B, 14:21:59 02/20/02 Wed
I answered this over there but I'll answer it here too (if i can
remember my answers)
Dramatic (no particular order)
1) Becoming Pt 1 -- Buffy running back to the library to try to
save her friends
2) Becoming Pt 2 -- Sarah McLaughlin gets me every time
3) Passion -- the chase to the very end
4) Graduation Day Pt. 2 -- Angel feeds off Buffy
5) The Gift - Spike sobbing
Comedic: (no particular order)
1) Earshot -- the scene in the library, esp when Cordelia just
says what she thinks
2) Life Serial -- the Magic Box loop
3) Earshot -- Xander and the cafeteria lady
4) Going Through the Motions
5) Grad Day Pt. 2 -- Wesley getting knocked down for the count
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> My choices, plus a brand new category -- Rattletrap, 14:58:06
02/20/02 Wed
Dramatic (in no particular order, narrowing it down to 5 is hard
enough :-)
1. Prophecy Girl -- the "I Quit" speech; the 2 lines
Wynn mentioned are phenomenal, but the part that always really
chills me is Buffy speculating about her replacement slayer.
2. Passion -- Jenny's death and Angel's subsequent voice-over
3. The Body -- Too many parts to be specific, an all around intense
episode.
4. The Gift -- Buffy's speech to Dawn, her swan dive, and all
the reaction shots that follow.
5. Graduation Day part I -- Buffy's fight with Faith and all of
the conversations leading up to it.
Comic moments (again, no particular order)
1. The Initiative -- The "impotence" discussion after
Spike's failed attempt to bite Willow.
2. Earshot -- inner-thought voice-overs from Cordy and Oz
3. Dopplegangland -- Good Willow pretending to be Evil Willow;
Cordy having a talk w/ Evil Willow about boyfriend stealing; Percy
doing his homework after being beaten up by Evil Willow
4. Intervention -- Great funny moments all the way through; but
special mention to the conversation in Buffy's living room when
Buffy and the 'bot first meet.
5. Fear, Itself -- The "actual size shown" fear demon.
and, *drumroll* I offer this new category:
Jumping-out-of-your-seat-cheering moments: for those times that
are not the most heavily dramatic, but merit a hearty "woo
hoo!" usually because the Good Guys have won one.
1. Checkpoint -- the bit with the sword, you know the part I mean
2. Graduation Day, part II -- The whole epic battle at the end
3. The Harvest -- the final fight at the Bronze, especially the
"Sunrise . . . it's in about 9 hours, moron" line.
4. Innocence -- Buffy kicking Angel in the groin, one of the most
deeply satisfying moments in the history of the show; honorable
mention to killing the Judge with a rocket launcher
5. Fear, Itself -- Giles breaking down the wall of the house with
a chainsaw
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Jump out of my seat and cheer moments... -- Wynn,
20:09:27 02/20/02 Wed
Here are five moments that made me jump up and cheer:
Checkpoint- Buffy stands up to Travers and knocks him off of his
high and mighty pedestal.
OMWF- Spike and Buffy finally kiss.
The Gift- Glory gets her ass kicked by the SG. (sorry about the
language)
Becoming Part 2- Even though Spike was evil at the time and his
actions were completely selfish, I still loved it when he got
up from his wheelchair and beat the hell out of Angelus.
Graduation Day Part 2- Snyder gets eaten by the big snake. 'Nuff
said.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Poll from the Buffy Cross and Stake... (Spoilers through
OaFA) -- manwitch, 15:06:40 02/20/02 Wed
I recognize the superior quality of eps like the body and the
gift. But these are moments that just "do it" for me.
Dramatic:
1) Prophecy Girl.
Willow to Buffy: "It wasn't our world anymore. They made
it theirs."
2) Wild at Heart.
Willow to Oz: "So that's your solution?"
3) Faith, Hope and Trick.
Giles to Willow: "There is no spell."
4) Blood Ties.
Dawn to Buffy: "Is this blood?"
5) New Moon Rising.
Willow to Tara: "I am."
Comic:
1) Living Conditions.
Oz to Buffy: "No one deserves mime, Buffy."
2) Intervention.
Buffybot to Willow: "I can make sketches."
3) Halloween.
Giles to Willow: "The, uh, ghost of what, exactly?"
4) The Yoko Factor.
Giles to the gang: "Fort Dicks?"
5) A New Man.
Giles to Spike: "Wait, stop the car."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Poll from the Buffy Cross and Stake... (Spoilers through
OaFA) -- Sophist, 16:56:48 02/20/02 Wed
Dramatic:
1. The end of Becoming II.
2. The death of Jenny Calendar.
3. Buffy finding her mother on the couch in The Body.
4. The end of The Gift.
5. Willow in Oz's room at the end of NMR.
Comedic:
1. The Spike can't bite scene in The Initiative.
2. Xander's line in Innocence: "I'm 17. Looking at linoleum
makes me think about having sex."
3. The debate over killing the avenging Chumash spirit in Pangs.
4. Giles's "Bloody Hell" in response to Willow's announcement
that Tara is her girlfriend in TYF.
5. Spike's interaction with Buffy, Dru, and Harmony in Crush.
This was too hard! I need mor