February 2003 posts


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To Chip or Not to Chip (spoilers for KiM, no future spoilers) -- Rob, 10:31:03 02/08/03 Sat

Just thought those who expressed anger that it looks like Buffy will be making the decision for Spike might be interested to see that this week's poll at the UPN site is:

What should Buffy do about Spike's chip?

a) Remove it
b) Repair it, just in case
c) Let Spike make the decision for himself.

Incidentally, the score's split almost in half between a and c. Now, obviously, this poll doesn't tell what's going to happen, but I just took heart in the fact that the site acknowledges that c should be an option.

Rob

[> A thought on that: -- HonorH, 13:34:16 02/08/03 Sat

I'm just wondering if Spike's in any shape to make the decision right now. He was barely conscious after the fight with the demon, and he didn't look too terribly awake while the CO dude was talking to Buffy.

Another thing: Spike would almost certainly, at this point, say he wanted the chip repaired due to soul and guilt issues. However, if the chip degraded again in a couple of years, he might not be able to get it removed, and it'd kill him. Buffy can perhaps think more rationally about it at this point, so perhaps it's best if she makes the decision.

[> [> Actually, what I think would be really interesting... (total spec) -- Rob, 14:16:14 02/08/03 Sat

...is if Buffy decides to take out the chip, and Spike, upon awakening from the operation, is mad at her about that. That could be fascinating, since it would tie into his current self-hatred. Also, although he's hated the chip, it's also been a constant watchdog for him, to make sure his behavior is appropriate, etc. He might freak out, like Dumbo at first when he realized he'd lost his magic feather.

Rob

[> [> [> Like this idea... -- Dariel, 10:58:20 02/09/03 Sun

Especially since Spike seems rather content to hide in Buffy's basement. Playing at being a good boy, her pet vampire. If Buffy has the chip taken out, it's sort of like pushing him out of the nest. He'd have to start thinking for himself, try to control his own actions. Maybe become a partner to Buffy instead of the subservient admirer.

[> [> [> [> Exactly! And... -- Rob, 11:40:04 02/09/03 Sun

...to start off with being "pushed out of the nest" might frighten him. Although he does always say how much he wants to be rid of the chip, it has been an easy way for him to keep his morality in check. He's terrified that he could slip at any moment, and hate it as he does, he has become dependant on the chip to keep him from slipping. I think eventually, he would grow to like the absence of the chip, but to start off with I think he might be scared to be "off on his own" like that, in the real world, when the only pain you get from harming another person is the guilt and distress you give yourself. Spike will then have to realize that he already has this "new chip," his soul, and so the old one is no longer necessary.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Wouldn't it be a kick... -- WickedBored, 11:58:19 02/09/03 Sun


... if the doctor took the chip out, looked at it very carefully, and said:

"Why, this chip hasn't been working at all for at least a year - it's probably just the leaking residue of plutonium that's causing the headaches."

[> [> [> [> [> Moral trainer wheels off! -- Indri, 12:34:04 02/09/03 Sun


[> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- Rob, 16:08:55 02/09/03 Sun


[> [> Re: This really resonates for me -- Aquaman, telling a true story that is on-topic ..., 15:59:41 02/08/03 Sat

When Buffy was told that she could, actually HAD to decide for Spike, I almost started to cry, because I was faced with a horrible decision recently.

Last May, I was travelling in Borneo, in the Malay state of Sarawak, with a woman I had only met two months prior. Her friend had been my scuba dive student in Thailand, and we got together, so I took off of work to finish her holiday travels with her. Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, (get a map of Borneo, please, if you can) then Kuching, Sibu, Kapit - into the interior of Borneo, to meet the headhunters (not since about 1960, but there were some older guys...) of the Iban tribe, who live in longhouses of over a hundred families in remote areas of the river tributary system. No more hunting, but, yes, there were still heads - desiccated human skulls arranged in altar-like displays and hung in the communal area, a relic of not-too-long-ago, still seen as powerful totems.
These places were accessible only by river boat (called 'flying coffins') or dirt logging roads. We went by river, about 12 hours from the coast total over several days, all the way to a town called Belaga. Belaga is only on your map because it is the last outpost on the Rajang river. It has one hotel with 4 rooms, a schoolhouse of one room for all ages, three shops, and maybe six cafes. No police, no doctor, no government structure, questionable phone service. Most livings were made by the men going to logging camps, where they work two or three months, then come home for one. There is one man with a Jeep who makes his living taking mail, artwork, and the occasional tourist from Belaga, over the logging roads to Bintulu on the coast, 5 hours instead of the boats, which take a couple days. Rough ride, though.

You should know, I am a medic trainer and rescue trainer - I teach people to be field medics and to manage emergencies, as well as deep-sea search and rescue. So I was not totally unprepared in that sense, but completely unprepared in another, when my friend was hit with an acute appendicitis attack during the night in Belaga.

She woke me up, doubled over, feverish, sweating but shivering. It took a bit to gain control of myself, then I diagnosed her, and when I did - now, mind you, I am a control freak in the water when I'm responsible for others' safety, and it comes second nature. But this was not a student - she was my lover, and yet a virtual stranger. I knew it was up to me to take care of the situation, but it was still a jolt when she looked at me and said, "Please get me home safe."

I asked her if she wanted me to get her full of antibiotics and try to get her back to England, or if she could accept getting surgery in Bintulu. Even bigger jolt: "You have to decide, I can't think straight, i trust you.."

Wow. If anyone else has ever had to make a decision like this at home, you might imagine how I felt where I was.

This is right where Buffy found herself - untreaded, uncertain ground, responsible for a life, and it's someone she loves or at least cares for deeply, has no idea of the repercussions, no idea if Spike will agree with the decision once it's done, no idea if he'll live. I kept imagining myself calling a woman I had never met to tell her that her daughter was critical or dead in Borneo. It compelled me to act -

I woke the Jeep guy, offered extra to drive to Bintulu pre-dawn. He was nice, no problem. Got to Bintulu, to hospital, fairly modern, military-built. White cell count through the roof. The doctor was a Muslim woman - headscarf only in Malaysia, no veil. She was schooled in New Zealand, perfect English. I signed the papers for immediate surgery. Doctor was only one who spoke English, and the nursing staff was at a loss to communicate with a post-op Englishwoman, so I stayed in the hospital for four days, and did all the procedures myself, i.v. drips, vitals, chart notations, enemas, bedpan changes, meds, etc. You really have to love the litigation-free third world...if it works, they let it be. Flew with her back to England, Took her to her parents' house, and came back home to collapse from exhaustion and stress.

And I still find it hard to put myself in Buffy's shoes....

[> [> [> I don't think I could even imagine... -- Scroll, 17:32:35 02/08/03 Sat

I don't think I could even imagine what it would be like to have been in your place. But your friend must've been so glad you were there for her, to take care of her. I've never been in that kind of situation and I hope I never will be. Thank you for sharing this, and I hope your friend made a full recovery :)

[> [> Caveat on above: -- HonorH, 16:12:42 02/08/03 Sat

Of course, I'm assuming (completely unspoiled) that Buffy *will* tell them to remove his chip, just because it seems logical right now. Considering how many times ME has shocked the heck out of me, though, I wouldn't place any bets at this point. As long as I understand her thought processes, I'll be okay with whatever decision she makes, even if I ultimately disagree with it.

[> [> The First eats a Chip -- WickedBuffy, 19:34:17 02/08/03 Sat

We are so focused on Buffy's decision, etc... what part would this play in the larger scheme of things? Suppose this is part of TF's plan to "get" Buffy. (get meaning kill, take over, bring to the dark side, totally demoralize, etc)

S'pose TF was causing all that pain that Spike and Buffy have been attributing to the Chip. Knowing that whatever happened next, Spike and Buffy were going to be put in one of many tense outcomes already brought up by other posters.

How many different ways could it go to end up with Buffy feeling incredibly guilty or at least alienated from Spike because of what happens post-chip. Or, even if it's left in and TF continues playing puppetmaster to Spike with the blame still on Buffy for making the "wrong" decision.

So that no matter what Buffy decides, The First can use it against her thru Spikes resulting actions with or without it. It's practically out of Buffy's hands and whatever she does will result in havoc just because she was given the decision to make.

What the heck do you think The Firsts IQ is, anyway? It's plans aren't usually successful (appearing) so far.

[> [> [> Re: The First eats a Chip -- Alison, 20:12:54 02/08/03 Sat

maybe they just don't appear successful

[> [> [> [> Re: The First eats a Chip -- WickedBuffy, 11:09:21 02/09/03 Sun

ayup, I agree - that's why I added the "appear" in parenthesis. Time probably doesn't mean anything to The First, so you're right! this could have been a plan since Day One.

[> Re: To Chip or Not to Chip (spoilers for KiM, no future spoilers) -- leslie, 19:36:10 02/08/03 Sat

Given that the chip is proven to degrade, I really don't think Buffy has any other option but to have them remove it. If she doesn't, she might as well just stake him right now.

Now, I do not think that Spike is going to like this, so I anticipate oodles conflict.

Though, hmm, if Spike really is out of it and can't make a decision, it would be interesting if they remove it, and Buffy tells him they repaired it, and see how he behaves. I don't know if she's that devious, though.

[> [> addendum -- leslie, 19:39:26 02/08/03 Sat

"I don't know if she's that devious..."

...but ME sure as hell are.

Incidentally, that should be oodles OF conflict. But you knew that.

FYI: Chat online with Vladimir Kulich (The Beast) -- oboemaboe, 11:23:50 02/08/03 Sat

City of Angel gives instructions on where to mail your questions, but they must be sent in by 5:00 PST today to be answered tomorrow. I'm sure you can come up with some good ones, so hurry up!


Is The Beast really all that scary?

[> Is The Beast really all that scary? -- Masq, 15:40:48 02/08/03 Sat

Five episodes into the Beast arc, I'm starting to think that he isn't supposed to be all that scary. What he's bringing down on L.A. is pretty major, but our heroes remain relatively unscathed by their encounters with him so far.

My impression is that the Beast is meant to be a foil. He brings the world crashing down around the gang's ears, but the action in Season 4 isn't the missing sun or the piled-high corpses. The action this season is going on inside the characters themselves. Their inner turmoil. Their failing relationships. It is how they are reacting to the world falling apart--like the dysfunctional family that they are--that is the Big Bad.

Which is why the Beast is likely to remain all booming bass voice and snapping vertebrae and the clog shoes from hell. You pay attention to him if you watch Angel purely for the action. You watch the Hyperion hotel gang if you want to see the metaphor, literary references, and existential angst.

[> [> Re: Is The Beast really all that scary? -- VampRiley, 18:41:38 02/08/03 Sat

He's about as scary as the stray puppy that walked out onto the school auditorium in Clone high that won the student election.

VR

[> [> I meant the behind the scenes picture, not the show. -- oboemaboe, 23:07:35 02/08/03 Sat

Then don't chat with him. No skin off my back. If I ever saw a notice that one of the Hyperion gang was going to chat with fans, I'd post a heads-up for whoever might be interested.

The Beast is meant to be scary at least visually, which is why the image of him tossing a tennis ball for a puppy named Spanky is at least mildly amusing.

"It is how they are reacting to the world falling apart--like the dysfunctional family that they are--that is the Big Bad."
In order for them to react to it, the world actually does have to go and fall apart, making the beast an essential part of the season, even if only as a catalyst. If they had inner turmoil and dysfunctional familyism independently of any outside villains and just milled about the hotel all day, that would be a soap opera, not the show we know and love.
For all I know, the Beast will be around for the rest of the season if not longer. Plenty of time for him to develop as a character, even if he never reaches the level of Holtz or Darla.


"You pay attention to him if you watch Angel purely for the action. You watch the Hyperion hotel gang if you want to see the metaphor, literary references, and existential angst."

[I had a huffy response to this, then I realized you were talking just about the underdeveloped Beast, not ragging on action in general, yes? It is precisely that action that is informed by existential angst and is the culmination of months of emotional turmoil that is the most enjoyable. This is why something as simple as Connor tasering Angel in the surf in Tomorrow is one of my favorite action scenes from last year. I was a S6 hater; the end of that season left me cold and by that time my emotional involvement in the story had been worn down to practically nil. So I barely even remember the great B/W showdown even if, strictly choreographically speaking, it might have been the equal of great emotionally involving fights like B/A in Becoming, B/F in Graduation, or F/A in 5X5.]



TTFN

[> [> [> Continuing the Beast-love! -- grifter, 02:44:51 02/09/03 Sun

Uhm, that didn't come out right...anyway, just wanted to add that I really love the Beast as a villain, he looks alright for a "guy in spandex" kind of monster and his sheer power alone is scary.

Do I love Holtz more? You can betcha! But would Holtz work as a villain this season? Don't think so, with all the inner struggles of the Hyperion Gang I think we need a really physical, hands-down villain who will beat the snot out of our heroes instead of torturing them psychologically (also, we have Angelus for a bit of that). We had the psycho-villains in s2-3 (Darla and Holtz), it was great, but you can't repeat the same concept over and over.

"Go Beast, it's your birthday!"

[> [> [> Re: -- Angela, 04:58:45 02/09/03 Sun

Thanks for the FYI on the chat, oboemaboe. I think your post just crystallized a thought for Masq as it were. In terms of the Beast as BB although it seems like he has manipulated the characters to an extent, I think I would fear Angelus more but it's hard to say in some ways the Beast is still a cipher. My first thoughts are still questions about his connections to the Gang. I think the main thing about the little references that get thrown around and the little ongoing mysteries is that it keeps me thinking about the show during the following week and visits the boards to glean all those things that others pick up on and I don't. But I live with someone who just watches the show and he and his friends definitely enjoy the action. Nothing wrong with that. He wasn't too fazed by the Beast but he did a bit of a happy dance when Angelus came back. Angelus just brings another level of threat. Me, I'm enjoying Angelus very much but I still really want to know to know the whats and the whys. ;-)

[> [> [> I just thought I'd start a topic : ) -- Masq, 07:19:24 02/09/03 Sun


[> [> I hear the Beast purring... -- WickedE!, 14:16:10 02/09/03 Sun

I think the Beast looks nasty-good in that tight outfit and it's such an incredible shade of red! All slick and shiny. Couldn't deal with the disco boots at first, but now I see how they kind of bring the whole outfit together. (Hopefully, they aren't that tall to make up for some short demon inferiority complex he has.)

But the best is his voice. It's absolutely mellifluous. And I've never used that word to describe anyone else's voice.

Sure, he could kill me in an instant, but so could a bus if I stepped out onto the street without looking. And he does seem to kill people pretty fast, no torture involved. And he does seem to kill for a reason, not just blindly like a T- Rex.

So, I'd be more afraid of a dinosaur than The Beast. He hasn't seem to have done evil just-for-the-heck-of-it stuff like puppynailing, so he actually seems more level-headed and focused than Angelus. Whereas the Beast seems to be clever and intelligent, a good strategizer, Angelus is cunning, charmingly tricky and passionate about evil and doing evil just for the sake of doing evil. Angelus is the poster boy for Evil Hedonism. The Beast reminds me of certain politicians. ;>

To me, Angelus is scary. Beast is not scary.
But it's all a matter of perspective, as usual!

[> [> You are beginning to figure it out......;) -- Rufus, 15:33:16 02/09/03 Sun


"In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart." (Spoilers for Soulless and other AtS) -- manjet, 13:01:00 02/08/03 Sat

leave it to me to take a throw away Angelus taunt and mining it for hidden riches. Then again he WAS quoting Yeats so maybe the mining is warranted.

a little ground work.

From Soulless--

Wes: "I want to know how to kill the Beast, it has nothing to do with being a hero.

Angelus: Sure it does, but why now? Can't be because there's an apocalypse coming, there's always one of those around the corner.

Wes: Enlighten me.

Angelus: The foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart, that's where you live.


From a Poem by W.B. Yeats--

I thought my dear must her own soul destroy,
So did fanaticism and hate enslave it,
And this brought forth a dream and soon enough
This dream itself had all my thought and love.

And when the Fool and Blind Man stole the bread
Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea;
Heart-mysteries there, and yet when all is said
It was the dream itself enchanted me:
Players and painted stage took all my love,
And not those things that they were emblems of.

Those masterful images because complete
Grew in pure mind, but out of what began?
A mound of refuse or the sweepings of a street,
Old kettles, old bottles, and a broken can,
Old iron, old bones, old rags, that raving slut
Who keeps the till. Now that my ladder's gone,
I must lie down where all the ladders start,
In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart.


There is ample material in this poem that could be related to Angel himself and his path this season, I will just highlight just a few items. I invite other with more time and brains to run with it.

Strophe 1--

And this brought forth a dream and soon enough
This dream itself had all my thought and love.

This season of Angel seems to be all about the conflict between The Dream (Angels of how the world should be) and the harshness of the real world. I am inclined to believe that Angels soul, wherever it is, is still living the dream that has all his love, in the world that he desires.

Strophe 2--

And when the Fool and Blind Man stole the bread
Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea;

I could write for a month about parallels between Angel, formerly Liam of Galway, the "Champion" and the Gaelic legend of Cuchulain "High Champion of the Heroes of Ireland."

from Bulfinch's Mythology

Hero Myths of the British Race

II. Cuchulain, Champion of Ireland

AMONG all the early literatures of Europe, there are two which, at exactly opposite corners of the continent, display most strikingly similar characteristics. These are the Greek and the Irish, and the legend of the Irish champion Cuchulain, which well illustrates the similarity of the literatures, bears so close a resemblance to the story of Achilles as to win for this hero the title of "the Irish Achilles." Certainly in reckless courage, power of inspiring dread, sense of personal merit, and frankness of speech the Irish hero is fully equal to the mighty Greek. 1
Cuchulain was the nephew of King Conor of Ulster, son of his sister Dechtire, and it is said that his father was no mortal man, but the great god Lugh of the Long Hand. Cuchulain was brought up by King Conor himself, and even while he was still a boy his fame spread all over Ireland. His warlike deeds were those of a proved warrior, not of a child of nursery age; and by the time Cuchulain was seventeen he was without peer among the champions of Ulster. 2
Upon Cuchulain's marriage to Emer, daughter of Forgall the Wily, a Druid of great power, the couple took up their residence at Armagh, the capital of Ulster, under the protection of King Conor. Here there was one chief, Bricriu of the Bitter Tongue, who, like Thersites among the Grecian leaders, delighted in making mischief. Soon he had on foot plans for stirring up strife among the heroes of Ulster, leaders among whom were the mighty Laegaire, Conall Cearnach, cousin of Cuchulain, and Cuchulain himself. Inviting the members of King Conor's court to dinner, Bricriu arranged that a contest should arise over who should have the "champion's portion," and so successful was he that, to avoid a bloody fight, the three heroes mentioned decided to submit their claims to the championship of Ireland to King Ailill of Connaught. 3
Ailill put the heroes to an unexpected test. Their dinner was served them in a separate room, into which three magic beasts, in the shape of monstrous cats, were sent by the king. When they saw them Laegire and Conall rose from their meal, climbed among the rafters, and stayed there all night. Cuchulain waited until one cat attacked him, and then, drawing his sword, struck the monster. It showed no further sign of fight, and at daybreak the magic beasts disappeared. 4
As Laegire and Conall claimed that this test was an unfair one, Ailill sent the three rivals to Curoi of Kerry, a just and wise man, who set out to discover by wizardry and enchantments the best among the heroes. In turn they stood watch outside Curoi's castle, where Laegire and Conall were overcome by a huge giant, who hurled spears of mighty oak trees, and ended by throwing them over the wall into the courtyard. Cuchulain alone withstood the giant, whereupon he was attacked by other magic foes. Among these was a dragon, which flew on horrible wings from a neighboring lake, and seemed ready to devour everything in its way. Cuchulain sprang up, giving his wonderful hero-leap, thrust his arm into the dragon's mouth and down its throat, and tore out its heart. After the monster fell dead, he cut off its scaly head. 5
As even yet Cuchulain's opponents would not admit his championship, they were all three directed to return to Armagh, to await Curoi's judgment. Here it happened that all the Ulster heroes were in the great hall one night, except Cuchulain and his cousin Conall. As they sat in order of rank, a terrible stranger, gigantic in stature, hideous of aspect, with ravening yellow eyes, entered. In his hand he bore an enormous axe, with keen and shining edge. Upon King Conor's inquiring his business there, the stranger replied: 6
"Behold my axe! The man who will grasp it to-day may cut my head off with it, provided that I may, in like manner, cut off his head to-morrow. If you have no champion who dare face me, I will say that Ulster has lost her courage and is dishonored." 7
At once Laegire accepted the challenge. The giant laid his head on a block, and at a blow the hero severed it from the body. Thereupon the giant arose, took the head and the axe, and thus, headless, strode from the hall. But the following night, when he returned, sound as ever, to claim the fulfillment of Laegire's promise, the latter's heart failed him and he did not come forward. The stranger then jeered at the men of Ulster because their great champion durst not keep his agreement, nor face the blow he should receive in return for the one he gave. 8
The men of Ulster were utterly ashamed, but Conall Cearnach, who was present that night, made a new agreement with the stranger. He gave a blow which beheaded the giant, but again, when the latter returned whole and sound on the following evening, the champion was not to be found. 9
Now it was the turn of Cuchulain, who, as the others had done, cut off the giant's head at one stroke. The next day the members of Conor's court watched Cuchulain to see what he would do. They would not have been surprised if he had failed like the others, who now were present. The champion, however, showed no signs of failing or retreat. He sat sorrowfully in his place, and with a sigh said to King Conor as they waited: "Do not leave this place till all is over. Death is coming to me very surely, but I must fulfil my agreement, for I would rather die than break my word." 10
Towards the close of day the stranger strode into the hall exultant. 11
"Where is Cuchulain?" he cried. 12
"Here I am," was the reply. 13
"Ah, poor boy! your speech is sad to-night, and the fear of death lies heavy on you; but at least you have redeemed your word and have not failed me." 14
The youth rose from his seat and went towards him, as he stood with the great axe ready, and knelt to receive the blow. 15
The hero of Ulster laid his head on the block; but the giant was not satisfied. "Stretch out your neck better," said he. 16
"You are playing with me, to torment me," said Cuchulain. "Slay me now speedily, for I did not keep you waiting last night." 17
However, he stretched out his neck as ordered, and the stranger raised his axe till it crashed upwards through the rafters of the hall, like the crash of trees falling in a storm. When the axe came down with a terrific sound all men looked fearfully at Cuchulain. The descending axe had not even touched him; it had come down with the blunt side on the ground, and the youth knelt there unharmed. Smiling at him, and leaning on his axe, stood no terrible and hideous stranger, but Curoi of Kerry, come to give his decision at last. 18
"Rise up, Cuchulain," said Curoi. "There is none among all the heroes of Ulster to equal you in courage and loyalty and truth. The Championship of the Heroes of Ireland is yours from this day forth, and the Champion's Portion at all feasts; and to your wife I adjudge the first place among all the women of Ulster. Woe to him who dares to dispute this decision!" Thereupon Curoi vanished, and the warriors gathered around Cuchulain, and all with one voice acclaimed him the Champion of the Heroes of all Ireland-a title which has clung to him until this day. 19
This is one of many stories told of the Irish champion, whose deeds of bravery would fill many pages. Cuchulain finally came to his end on the field of battle, after a fight in which he displayed all his usual gallantry but in which unfair means were used to overcome him. 20
For Wales and for England during centuries Arthur has been the representative "very gentle perfect knight." In a similar way, in England's sister isle, Cuchulain stands ever for the highest ideals of the Irish Gaels.

Back to Strophe 2--

Heart-mysteries there, and yet when all is said
It was the dream itself enchanted me:
Players and painted stage took all my love,
And not those things that they were emblems of.


I think applies very to Angels very modern human tendency cast people in to familiar roles. He makes himself into Harrison Ford, and Casts Cordy as Clytemnestra, Connor as Oedipus, Gunn as Othello, Fred as Desdemona, and Wes as Iago. He relates to these people through the medium of the Play, which is an interesting bit of metanarration.

[> Re: "In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart." (Spoilers for Soulless and other AtS) -- Morgan, 13:42:49 02/08/03 Sat

Hi, lurker here, but the Yeats brought me out of lurkage for some observations.

1.) Cuchulain also killed his son, unknowingly.

2.) And he had a beserker rage side.

3.) Yeats' poem alludes to the woman who was his muse but never his lover, Maud Gonne, a political activist and fierce Irish nationalist, as well as his unease with the fanaticism she and other nationalists were capable of. The rediscovery of the Irish mythology was a part of the national movement, but Yeats here expresses he cares for the myths themselves, not how they can be used in "the struggle."

[> Could Angelus's quote actually refer to Wes? (spoilers) -- Scroll, 14:19:11 02/08/03 Sat

Wes: I want to know how to kill the Beast, it has nothing to do with being a hero.

Angelus: Sure it does, but why now? Can't be because there's an apocalypse coming, there's always one of those around the corner.

Wes: Enlighten me.

Angelus: The foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart, that's where you live.


Isn't Angelus' next line about how Wes wants to impress the girl and play the hero? Or was that before this snippet of dialogue? Anyway, two lines of Yeats' poem struck me as applicable to Wesley as well:

And this brought forth a dream and soon enough
This dream itself had all my thought and love.


I've had a hard time figuring out why Wesley is pursuing Fred when she's already made her decision to be with Gunn. And I can't understand why Wesley is so bitter over losing Fred. When Wes first started showing interest in Fred in early Season 3, I remember many posters saying how Wes was treating Fred like an ideal, putting her up on a pedestal, whereas Gunn was treating Fred as a woman, giving her compliments and wooing her over breakfast.

Wesley and Gunn's attitudes regarding Fred seemed to have reversed (along with many other things) in Season 4 -- but I have to wonder if maybe Wes still has an underlying idealism about Fred. I wonder if Wesley's dreams and hopes of being reunited with the Fang Gang haven't been somehow merged with his desire for Fred... so that winning Fred has now become synonymous with winning back his friends. Because it seems to me that Wesley's "dream... (of returning home? of Fred?) ...has all [his] thought and love."

[> [> Re: Yeat's Circus Animals -- Angela, 14:57:55 02/08/03 Sat

Thought you might like the first half of the ditty also:

William Butler Yeats

The Circus Animals' Desertion

I

I sought a theme and sought for it in vain,
I sought it daily for six weeks or so.
Maybe at last, being but a broken man,
I must be satisfied with my heart, although
Winter and summer till old age began
My circus animals were all on show,
Those stilted boys, that burnished chariot,
Lion and woman and the Lord knows what.

II

What can I but enumerate old themes,
First that sea-rider Oisin led by the nose
Through three enchanted islands, allegorical dreams,
Vain gaiety, vain battle, vain repose,
Themes of the embittered heart, or so it seems,
That might adorn old songs or courtly shows;
But what cared I that set him on to ride,
I, starved for the bosom of his faery bride.

And then a counter-truth filled out its play,
'The Countess Cathleen' was the name I gave it;
She, pity-crazed, had given her soul away,
But masterful Heaven had intervened to save it.
I thought my dear must her own soul destroy
So did fanaticism and hate enslave it,
And this brought forth a dream and soon enough
This dream itself had all my thought and love.

And when the Fool and Blind Man stole the bread
Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea;
Heart-mysteries there, and yet when all is said
It was the dream itself enchanted me:
Character isolated by a deed
To engross the present and dominate memory.
Players and painted stage took all my love,
And not those things that they were emblems of.

III

Those masterful images because complete
Grew in pure mind, but out of what began?
A mound of refuse or the sweepings of a street,
Old kettles, old bottles, and a broken can,
Old iron, old bones, old rags, that raving slut
Who keeps the till. Now that my ladder's gone,
I must lie down where all the ladders start
In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart.

;-)

[> [> [> Yeats' images and the Tarot -- luna, 16:16:04 02/08/03 Sat

The chariot, the lion and woman, and perhaps some of the others are also images on the Rider-Waite tarot deck, and Yeats was involved in the Golden Dawn (with Waite) so these are quite possibly tarot references.

Not that I have any idea how that might be relevant here. Has there been any thing about the tarot with Angel or Angelus? (Of course, there's an Angel on several Tarot cards, but in the series itself, I mean.)

[> [> [> [> Re: Yeats' images - very cool, astute, and literate posting!! -- aquaman, 17:03:29 02/08/03 Sat

I don't think the Tarot is really involved here, except that Yeats was as obsessed with those images as the rest of the Golden Dawn crowd. (They all, by the way, designed their own Tarot decks. Yeats' is not mass-produced, his heirs wouldn't hear of it!)

What this poem is talking about, strangely enough, is becoming attached to images, metaphors, dramas, t.v. shows maybe? Yeats is saying, I think, that as an artist or art aficionado, you go into the art in search of meaning, truth, beauty, enlightenment, joy, love, whatever; but somewhere along the way, maybe you get so involved in the experience of the art itself that you neglect or even forget the values that you went in search of:

Players and painted stage took all my love
And not those things that they were emblems of

But, of course, even these values are representative of something even more basic - the loftiest thoughts of the mind are all grown from the dust and dirt that is our bodies, these lives we live are dramas we've built around the basic needs of food, water, shelter, reproduction.

"Heroics." The acts and the ideal - what does it stand for? That is Yeats' question here. What takes all of Wes' love, and what does it represent? Is it purely material, or is there a drama he is playing out?
And what of Angel, who pursues his ideals and dramas without any rag and bone - just a soul, but what does that soul represent if he is the walking dead?? Other vampires celebrate the feeding and the reproduction (siring) they do.

What does Angel celebrate, save 'the players and painted stage?'

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeats' images - very cool, astute, and literate posting!! -- Angela, 18:32:36 02/08/03 Sat

And yet it is possible that Luna has intuited something: the Chariot, Strength, and another card that slips my memory were referenced at the beginning of season 5 on Buffy. Here we also have the Sun I believe the "stilted boy" rides the beast.

I don't have too much to add aquaman, most of the internet work on this late period poem (the vision of him of Yeats writing and scratching out and flinging paper across the room and rewriting is on my mind now, the questioning of self, of purpose, of talent) is very similar to what you already expressed so well. Just two small thoughts. This of the four literary references reminded me also of Joss because it is the poet metanarrating on his own life's work, the illusionary quality of his images that weren't understood by so many, when he was writing from and shooting for the heart fire. Secondly, that the allusions can apply to both Wesley and Angel. Perhaps in a stretch some to Angelus also. Wesley is the circus mirror of Angel so leaving that for others...it is amongst the dribs and drabs of the street that Yeats the poet lies down to climb the ladder of his imagination there to find, he hopes, the fire of creativity. It has been amongst the inhabitants of his streets that Angel has sought redemption. Where will Angel lie down now to find his purpose, his fire? He tells us his dream of hero's success, love of family who are all come into their own powers, romantic love, love and true naming by his son. A dream which led to his banishment, his imprisonment and released his alter ego. Yet in his waking life he is so easily persuaded that the hero is empty, that his darker avatar is smarter stronger better for this.

The Poet tells us he sought a theme for weeks, and had to be content to write about his heart, although when he was younger, there was plenty to write about. He can do nothing but speak of old themes; dreams, "vain gaiety, vain battle, vain repose", the embittered heart. The emptiness of the quest. The emptiness of his words as leader belie Angel. Where has have his dreams led him? The poet is "starved" of love for a woman. The woman "pity crazed" gave "her soul away". Any woman? Cordy? Did she give her soul away to Conner or was Conner merely a symptom of the malaise the drift the absence of Cordy's soul. Or something even less pleasant to contemplate. Yeats talks of Oisin as misled, "led by the nose", "vain... vain... vain". It was his "faery bride" Yeats was "starved for". And then it is a symbol of the faery bride herself, "she [who] had given her *soul* away".

The dream itself obsesses him, and not the reality. But now that all the images are gone, he must return to the story of the heart. Which will be? Yeats then invokes the image of Fate - "masterful heaven". But again, "this dream itself had all [his] thought and love". He then speaks of "The Fool and Blind Man" and "Cuchulain", but they are merely dreams to him, he has not invoked their "heart mysteries."

Angelus won't remain front and center the mask the gilded image the player on the stage forever. He never does. Yeats talks of poem writing and play writing images, "character isolated by a deed", "players and painted stage". What are Angel and Angelus if not characters isolated by deed. And for all his potency Angelus is the shorter chapter in the book of Angel, the supporting character who moves the action, although he is apparently the spark the cause of Angel's initial return since it was his actions which led to the curse. Will our boy, Angelus, never the team player, now team with the Beast? I think not, not in character. Will he actually kill the Beast prove he's the biggest bad in town? And what other fun things will he find to break on his visit? We haven't reached the midpoint yet it's early in the play for the climax. Seems more to the plot than the audience is aware of at this point.

And how will this most recent incarnation of Angelus leave Angel? In one short time, already family is broken apart. Their dysfunction's, their weaknesses exposed. Will we have a Deep Down vision at end or an Awakening? For Angel is the center that was already spiraling apart.

When Angelus has run full course are we left with "a mound of refuse... sweepings of a street..old kettles, old bottles, a broken can... old iron, old bones, old rags of the hero's mantle. Is the ladder from which he climbs from the street to the heavens gone? Will his heart is a "foul rag-and-bone shop". Will he ever penetrate to "heart-mysteries"? Build illusion into reality?

Sorry, a journey through the essays of more literate writers on the internet which led to too many ramblings on a very cold Midwinter's eve!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeats' images - very cool, astute, and literate posting!! -- luna, 07:42:36 02/09/03 Sun

"They all, by the way, designed their own Tarot decks. Yeats' is not mass-produced, his heirs wouldn't hear of it!)"

I did not know that Yeats has his own! Not a Yeats scholar, obviously. Where could one see it?

"the loftiest thoughts of the mind are all grown from the dust and dirt that is our bodies, these lives we live are dramas we've built around the basic needs of food, water, shelter, reproduction...And what of Angel, who pursues his ideals and dramas without any rag and bone - just a soul, but what does that soul represent if he is the walking dead??"

Yes, exactly. In some ways, might Angel be more complete, at least, if he had some of the qualities that are so detestable in Angelus?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeats Tarot, includes answer to Luna -- Aquaman, 23:15:18 02/09/03 Sun

Dammit, I wish I knew!! I have only read 'about' it, in books about the Golden Dawn. I was a big Crowley fan in college, actually wrote a term paper on Tarot imagery for a class in Arthurian legends. I wonder, now, how much such imagery is in BtVS and Ats. I haven't thought about it in years...strange how you lose touch with things that were once such a big influence....now I'm getting broody like Angel!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tarot -- luna, 10:55:41 02/10/03 Mon

Started to sign myself the tarot geek, but actually I'm nowhere near it, just particularly into the literary references (but my very geeky act was to actually write an MA thesis about tarot in Eliot, Pynchon, Yeats, et al.--thus my excitement at hearing about Yeats' own deck) I tried doing some research for a paper i was going to write about Cormac McCarthy (there's a lot of tarot in Blood Meridian, but I suspect it's a Mexican deck)--and that got me off on trying to find various old versions. Actually I'm not really into the more recent versions and uses.

I've seen the Crowley deck--looks like something for BtVS and AtS, doesn't it? Speaking of the BEAST (hmm, connection there?)

One day I'll take time to search the archives for the previous tarot discussions here (that's right after I get all the Gnostic references)

[> [> [> [> [> The unselfish continuance of life and freedom perhaps? -- Celebaelin, 09:17:37 02/09/03 Sun


[> [> [> [> Angel on the Tarot (Spoilers WML) -- Rook, 20:09:41 02/08/03 Sat

Drusilla used a set of customized tarot cards to figure out that Angel was the key to her cure way back in What's My Line.

[> Re: "In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart." (Spoilers for Soulless and other AtS) -- luna, 16:11:11 02/08/03 Sat

But the end of the poem is interesting in different way--"Now my ladders' gone/ I must lie down where all ladders start/ in the foul rag and bone shop of the heart."

Yeats is talking about his poetry creativity, and how, although he worked with these wonderful images and legends, ultimately his art grows out of his all-too-human, unheroic, unbeautiful emotions.

So is there something there--I'm not quite sure what, but is it possible that it's an insight of Angel's about himself, although Angelus speaks it to Wes? It reminds me of some earlier discussions I've read about heroic strength, like Angel's (and Buffy) in some way growing out of the evil of the world.

[> [> "Now that my ladder's gone..." -- SingedCat, 22:19:37 02/08/03 Sat

In various posts in the past I've continued a train of thought on how Wes' life and Angel's go through parallels, so to hear people find application to Angel in his quote intended for Wes is a little vindicating. Of course when any man wishes to insult another, his most biting remarks are mined out of what he hates most in himself. Angelus is the perfect vehicle for this, and his words are sped well on the wings of everyone's fear.(Except Connor, who is manipulated even quicker by his own hate).

So forgive me if I keep the focus on Wes here, the person to whom the jibe was directed. Someone asked why he still pursued Fred, and did he still have her on a pedestal? After her campaign to destroy her old professor, and Wes' willing assistance in her revenge, I don't see how he could have kept idealizing her. Perhaps if anything it made her more real to him, he who had fallen off his own pedestal. It was certainly a force that drew them together, in a somewhat unwholesome fashion.


"I thought my dear must her own soul destroy,
So did fanaticism and hate enslave it,
And this brought forth a dream and soon enough
This dream itself had all my thought and love."

If anything, indeed, Gunn is more guilty of idealism now than Wes. Or is it that Gunn sympathizes with Fred's goodness, and Wesley, at least in this instance, with her darkness? I think we'll just have to wait and see how this plays out.

In any case, this is a little far from what Angelus meant by Wes living in the 'rag and bone shop of the heart.' Yeats was saying that he had fallen because he had put his faith in the trappings and symbols surrounding ideals, rather than keeping the ideals themselves close to his heart. Did Wes confuse himself, that is, his role as a champion, with his own ideals, placing too much of his self-worth in his ability to know and do what's right?

"Players and painted stage took all my love,
And not those things that they were emblems of....

"...Now that my ladder's gone,
I must lie down where all the ladders start,
In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart. "

Yeats was referring to the source of his poetry, but for Wes, what is his missing 'ladder?'? His confidence? No, he knows he's capable, if anything he is more coldly efficient than he ever was. His pride? If that were gone he would experience humility, and among other things, he would apologize. His hope? Wesley follows his hope for the world and acts on it, if only by a kind of grim policy. What then? What is the 'ladder' he has lost, and in what part of his spirit does he dwell? What is gone?

I'll go with his self-respect. Wesley despises himself, his self-regard went flying out the window last season when he betrayed his friends(like Angel did the season before, remember?). But like the crusty disciplined Brit he is, he has allowed the loss to take nothing else with it. He will still do his duty, act on his destiny to defend this sorry world, put all of his energies into supporting what good there is, and the fact that there's nothing going on inside him makes that effort all the more important. Because I think when he stops he hurts more. I think a year before this he had a blow that shattered his heart, and his body is clenched around those shards, waiting. Waiting, with a kind of grim stillness for relief; for the pain to fade, or the pieces to heal, or for someone to forgive him, like a sleeper curled tightly under a thin blanket in a winter breeze.

I wonder how long before the idiot finally gets up and shuts his own window?

[> [> [> Just wanted to say, I totally agree! -- Scroll, 01:43:52 02/09/03 Sun


[> [> [> Re: "Now that my ladder's gone..." -- Celebaelin, 16:10:08 02/09/03 Sun

Just wondering, and this may be misplaced, if you realise what a 'rag and bone man' is or does? The rag and bone men were the original recyclers and took away at kerbside virtually anything of potential value (unlike modern kerbside recycling schemes which tend to be prescriptive) so the 'rag and bone of the heart' most likely (!) refers to the potential for recovery from emotional hurt and is foul only (I presume) in its' departure from an ideal, and therefore presumably unrequited, love. A particularly iniquitous but transparently facile quote from the 'Machiavellian' Angelus it seems.

"Oh death where is thy sting? Oh grave where is thy victory?"
I Corinthians 55

[> [> [> [> I do indeed...." -- SingedCat, 14:47:04 02/10/03 Mon

...and that makes it all the more appropriate for Wes. He lies in the humble beginnings, and he thinks it squalid, but it's rich with potential, if he knows what shelves to look on....

[> [> [> Great post! -- Caroline, 10:08:52 02/10/03 Mon


[> Fool, Blind Man, and Cuchulain -- Valheru, 01:47:15 02/10/03 Mon

Great post, manjet, especially about Cuchulain. I've been meaning to learn more of British mythology (it fits neatly into my Norse studies) beyond the well-known Arthurian stuff. I assume the Cuchulain story predates Gawain?

But just in this context, I see Cuchulain fitting Connor better than Angel. "His father was no mortal man," raised by someone other than his father as his own son, "without peer" at an early age (Connor is, after all, Quortoth's "Destroyer"). At least, Connor's origin matches up well.

And, more importantly, insert Connor of "Soulless" into "Circus Animals' Desertion" in place of Cuchulain.

And when the Fool and Blind Man stole the bread
Connor fought the ungovernable sea;


"The ungovernable sea" could refer to Angelus (it could also refer to Connor, with Angel(us) as Cuchulain, but I'll go with my first interpretation). And what happened while Connor "fought" with Angelus? Well, we know one thing that happened and we can guess that another thing happened at the same time. Does the poem refer to one or both or neither? Or maybe it picks and chooses. Here's the possibilities (assuming that I'm right, in either way, about Connor and Angelus):

1) Wesley as The Fool, Gunn as Blind Man, and Fred as The Bread. "And when Wesley and Gunn stole Fred, Connor fought Angelus;"

2) Wesley as The Fool and Gunn as Blind Man (referring to the previous instance), while Angel's Soul is The Bread. "And when Wesley and Gunn stole Angel's Soul, Connor fought Angelus;" (no, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but given the cues in the poem, it's possible)

3) Someone else as The Fool and Blind Man, while Angel's Soul is The Bread. "And when someone else stole Angel's Soul, Connor fought Angelus;" (who is "someone else?" Lorne? Cordy? Fred? Gwen?)

4) *A more direct interpretation* Spike as The Fool (for Love), A Harbinger as Blind Man, and Angel's Soul is The Bread. "And when Spike and a Harbinger stole Angel's Soul, Connor fought Angelus;" (go, crossover!)

There's also a correlation between Countess Cathleen--she who "had given her soul away"--and Angel. In the poem, "masterful Heaven had intervened to save it." Might Cordelia, the ex-Higher Being and envoy from the Powers That Be, be the one who saves Angel's soul? Or, once more digging for crossover goodness, might I-was-in-Heaven Buffy?

The AtS crew is really getting some good usage out of Yeats this year. We've got so many literary references going on here that it wouldn't surprise me if the whole thing ended with Angel finally making it back to L.A. after the Trojan War to his beautiful wife Juliet, his son Tom Sawyer, and his friends from the Hundred Acre Woods (with Lorne as the Singing Tigger).

[> Dream of the Ladder - Angels Descending (Soulless) -- fresne, 22:59:55 02/10/03 Mon

Previously on the board,
"Me thinks you may be right when you say the only difference really is the "us", which may be numerous items: sans soul, hyper masculine/rage unleashed, dark side, infection...pick your favorite." s'kat

"Apropos of nothing and continuing Rufus' split personality metaphor....

Angel took everything his father hated about him and gave it to Angelus. The lechery, violence (fighting), sexuality and addictions, as well as the intellectual and artistic side. Like in the famous Richard Matheson episode of Star Trek, Angel is weaker for the loss. Angelus was calm and still, utterly confident of himself, while Angel constantly seeks affirmation, losing focus he needs to stay true to his mission." Arethusa

"And for all his potency Angelus is the shorter chapter in the book of Angel, the supporting character who moves the action, although he is apparently the spark the cause of Angel's initial return since it was his actions which led to the curse." Angela

According to the preview voice over last week, Soulless was to be a tale of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Angel, who strips parts of himself away to create Angelus. Dr. Jekyll, a large man and Mr. Hyde, who is described as both as a Juggernaut and as small and slight, with a high pitched voice. Hyde. Emotional. Running down little girls. Hitting old men up side the head. Out of control. Hysterical.

In the previously referred Star Trek episode, we have Kirk split in two. All the aggression and cruel cunning going off into a stark harshly lit version. The softer side of Kirk getting the Vaseline soft glow treatment normally reserved for female stars.

Huh, again I return to thinking of the Romance of Silence.

In the Romance of Silence, Silence, the main character has three names. Silence, a name that could be masculine or feminine. Silencius and Silencia. The difference between them is the barest -us and -ia. Silence contains them both. In the story, Silence contains within herself qualities both masculine and feminine. The greatest knight, troubadour, jongleur, defeats Merlin, which no man can do.

Angel(us), with Angel imagining his soul as a shiny phallic sword that kills the beast. And yet to give in to desire, to love, is the final idyll before his soul is removed. His soul soft, glowing in its rounded glass flask. So, easily broken and lost.

Cu Cuhulain, the hound of Ulster, son of Lugh, a Danann sun god. Angel, a fluffy puppy with bad teeth. Living in his hotel Hyperion, a vanquished Titan who was once the sun. The Ratet broken. Versailles empty. The gold stripped clean. Cu Cuhulain, who fought the sea after he killed his son Conlaoch. Bit of a hot head Cu Cuhulain. Okay, a lot of a hot head.

When Maeve of Connacht attacked Ulster in the whole Dun cow dealy-o, all the men of Ulster were laid low by a curse. The curse, birth pangs for five days because their ancestors had made a pregnant woman race the kings horses. (She won, had twins, was not a happy camper.) Except, Cu Cuhulain, who wasn't from Ulster and thus he fought single handed and thus he died. Tied to a tree.

Los Angeles in darkness. No longer the world divided into day and night. Now the sun is hidden. Blocked, not gone. There is an addition. A black skein. The foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart.

It's certainly a claustrophobic place. Darkness has texture. Weight. Of course, the FG are breaking apart. You can practically feel the walls moving in on them. Their ladders are gone. Divided from themselves. In themselves. Well, until the end of sweeps.

[> [> Angel, Bright and Dark -- Arethusa, 09:03:51 02/11/03 Tue

Angel's god-fearing, lecturing father hounded him so much for having human failings that Angel gave up his humanity-willingly, I now think-to be rid of his self-disgust. Angel denies his humanity, and it splits him in two. His sexual/vampiric congress with Darla let him be the monster he felt he was, despising the weak human part of himself. When he becomes Angel, is one of the most human of acts-the physical expression of love-that brings back the monster. Angelus observes the people around him, noting their weaknesses and loves. Angel ignores the unhappiness of others, glossing over their fears, jealousies, animosities, failings. Angelus can make love and make a baby; Angel can't. Angel has devoted followers; Angelus treats people like more equal adversaries. Angel's Raiders dream is divorced from reality, and Angelus' attacks are grounded in real people's emotions. In his fantasy Angel doesn't just kill the Beast-he kills his beast. That looming, hard, cold killing machine, in appearance like a biblical demon. The phallic sword kills his demon, but instead of being able to live like a man, he loses his soul.
To be human, Angel doesn't need to rid himself of Angelus-he needs to incorporate him.

I always enjoy your posts, fresne. They give wings to my imagination.

[> [> [> Re: Angel, Bright and Dark -- Arethusa, 10:00:00 02/11/03 Tue

And now I understand why Angel is the way he is. When every mistake or fault, even the smallest of failings, is met with a grossly out of proportion negative response, a person becomes extremely defensive. They can't bear to be seen at fault, to be seen as less than perfect. They overcompensate by craving positive recognition-they can't just be good, they must be the best, without error. Not human. A Champion.

[> [> The Chariot -- luna, 10:50:03 02/11/03 Tue

Again with the tarot images: The chariot is in many decks and depicts a chariot pulled by two horses (some show one black and one white). It's often interpreted in the light of Plato's Chariot, but could also work well with the idea of the double, the other self. The bright and the dark.

Back to the Beginning, Evil Riddance Exams and...Puppies for Some Reason (Spoilers S1-6) -- Haecceity, being silly, 19:33:36 02/08/03 Sat

So, it seems my much-anticipated Ethernet connection is disappointingly vampiric. You know-evil, soul-less, only up after midnight, smells faintly of mold...

And the grad school sitch (thus far) is "a whole big sucking thing"-but not in the fun way.

It's not all bad-love my classes and the books are good (this post is firmly devoted to early Scoobie Days, thus my simultaneous channeling of both Season 1 Willow *and* Giles in the last comment;), but those who've caught my previous sporadic posts-

(Sorry, all, for writing back so scattily-this connection really is the worst and I work online, so have had to use the best connection times for transmitting data. Means I've been a little out of the loop for reading as well as writing. Have probably missed scads of brilliance. Wonder if I could count ATPoBtVS as a grad seminar course-then I could give it the proper attention *and* get credit. I *am* doing a "special major" and Masq is a prof, right? Hmmm...) [geez, this parenthetical thing really derails the whole train-of-thought flow, huh? Maybe I should go all Terry Pratchett and switch to Fun With Footnotes TM instead.]

-know all about my Kathy!Roommate with her "Murder She Wrote" addiction and Diva-spinnage (Can we just call Joss "Master Mimesis" and have done with it?). She's added to her other talents with non-stop talking. Literally. I'm not certain she pauses long enough to draw proper breath-that's my current theory as to her oddness-improper oxygen intake. But since my last post of any significant length I've got *another roommate*-just as annoying but less amusingly so as she's just a slob who gets drunk every night and invites strangers home to wrestle in our living room at 3 o'clock in the morning. Casualty counts stands at two lamps, a Precious Moments figurine (belonging to Kathy!Roommate, and no big loss-rather more a favor, actually), an end table, Strawberry Shortcake Tea Pot (don't ask), and a potted plant thus far. Tune in to Common Area Smackdown next week, here on FOX.

Geez, listen to me-Rant, much?

The material point to all this is that we have one TV between us which *doesn't get UPN* (can anyone explain this? I thought it was one of those all-access stations). Fortunately, the love I left behind and I parted friends and he got all Buffyitis-infected so can be reliably counted on for... "Helllllooooo, FedEx! And thank you for my tapes. No, wait-DVDs!" (Guess sacrificing just the one roommate counts if you make sure it's the really irritating one;)--For those of you who caught "Great Pain and Groping" and sent those helpful suggestions;)

*******Ramble delayed as I run off to watch "The Killer in Me"*********

...Back, with loads of stuff to say about the last ep, but restraining myself, as I obviously have enough to natter on about for one post...



Back to Beginnings, Part One

So, I've been Roommate-annoyed and Buffy-deprived of late and have sought solace (and the merciful drowning out of "Diagnosis Murder"-Thin walls. Loud, traitor, non-UPN-receiving television.) by plugging my headphones into the laptop and settling down with Seasons 1and 2 DVDs. This has proved rather enlightening. I completely recommend it for those of you who've been feeling "Buffy Ennui" lately.

See, I've not been a big fan of Buffy: the Early Years. I came in to the series late ("Hush" as first ep), and always said I couldn't relate well to the Scoobs until after they'd headed off to SunnyD U (or, in Xander's case, nearby environs). Plus, not into Angel the Character (just not big on brooding, personally). Therefore, when FX, those wonderful darling dears who snare ever more future Buffy fanatics with their "Four Times Daily" Buffy showings, would run The Early Years, I'd take the time out to do other, long-neglected things like go to the gym and hang out after work with folks who'd not seen me in the weeks it took FX to air S3-5;)

As a result, I forgot about a lot of things-like:

The giddy schoolboy joy of Giles, new to the Hellmouth. How much he loved to do the "One girl in all the world, Chosen..." spiel. The rapture in his voice each time he said "center of mystical convergence". You know, Prissy Giles. I love cool, crooning, "how's-your-father" Giles better, but he's not around much these days. [KinM sidenote: there's no way *I* would have let Giles go weeks without a good hugging. Silly Scoobies, don't they know by now that a lack of proper cuddling can turn anyone evil? More on Scoobie-cuddling later. It's a sub-theme. With puppies.]

The utter sweetness of Geek Willow. Yes, so much of it is foreshadowy of "She's gonna be a big 'ol witch with a taste for torture and taking nerds to account"-let's just take a moment to fondly recall her desk lamp interrogation of Peed in the Pool Jonathon, shall we?-but that substitute-teaching, ice cream on the nose-tempting, a picture of she and Giles in her locker-having Willow is worthy of wistful memory, right? The red sneakers. I really love the red sneakers, don't know why.

How reliably funny and subversively witty Xander was, before he got side-lined off as Sometime Comic Relief and C-Storyline if We're Lucky Guy. How he was always acting the hero and nobody ever noticed. And what's with having him shirtless only three times?

That Angel got to be Cool Snarky Guy for a (very) little while. That was fun. (This was, of course, before he took off his shirt and became Doomed Love Interest Guy. Note to cool snarky vampires-once the shirt comes off you get to be the love interest, but your dialogue suffers.)

"Canape?" Oz. "All monkeys are French" Oz. "Actually, that explains a lot" Oz. BuffyRat-searching Oz. Oz, Oz, Oz. 'nuff said.

A grungy Bronze is a better Bronze, if you ask me. Nothing says cool like a place that hands out free drinks for squashed cockroaches, books random underground bands and decorates with haphazard zigzag strings of fairy lights. Blast those Acts of Troll. Now we get Ikea globes, umbrella drinks, ironically-WB band usage and weird balcony sex. Blast those acts of Troll.

Jenny Calendar. How cool was she?

The whole pre-"Snake Go Boom" high school, with it's one hallway, absurdly tiny library, layered-look gym uniforms, week-long career fair, field trips to the zoo (isn't that a grade-school thing?), green Jello on every plate, and annual talentless show. Principal Flutie and the touchy-feely thinking that led to his getting eaten.

And, of course, Hasn't-Died-Yet Buffy. Puppy-fat Buffy. Short dress, high boots, lilac nail varnish, huge ring-wearing Buffy. Snaps her gum, likes lollipops Buffy. Gets an allowance, spends it on hair care products Buffy. Principal's Hoop-jumping Buffy. Studies at the Bronze Buffy. Sweetly sarcastic, quippy Buffy. Sneaks out the window Buffy. Sneaks in the window Buffy. Goes on dates with the living (even the kind of geeky living) Buffy. Tries out for cheerleading Buffy. "If the Apocalypse comes, beep me" Buffy. Ice Capades fan Buffy. Worries about her hair Buffy. Wants to live Buffy.


But all this is secondary. What I'd forgotten about most was the Scoobies. The real Scoobies-Buffy and Willow and Xander and how close and inseparable and connected they were. They used to cuddle, you see. Buffy and Xander would lie on Buffy's bed and braid Willow's hair while they watched incomprehensible Indian musicals. Or sit shoulder-to-shoulder in the courtyard and on the library steps. Or huddle around each of their lockers in turn. The Scoobs used to kick ass *and* hold hands.



Wherein I Digress on the Subject of Puppies

We all went through this, right? When time spent with your friends involved piling together on a couch or bed or bus seat? When so much communication depended on touch. My mom used to say we looked like 3-week-old puppies in a box-just not ready to face the world alone, needing constant support and ridiculous amounts of snuggling.

It's funny how often puppies come up in the Buffyverse. Has anyone here done a study of it? I'm too lazy to actually count up all the puppy references, but I'll bet there are scads.

The one that leaps immediately to mind, though, is the reference to vampires as "Angry Puppy". If we take puppy to equal "teenager" (or better yet, "young vulnerable being") in the Buffyverse it makes a lot of sense. There's been lots of theorizing about the various metaphors given agency through the use of vampires, but one we seem to have come to a consensus about is the idea of vampire as metaphor for arrested development. If this is so, then the bad behavior of the violent, anti-social, raging against growing up-ness aspects of the average vamp could be easily translated to "Angry Puppy"-ness.

And what about all those nesting vamp "families", sharing meals and piling together in crypts? Remember Pangs, with poor Spike as outcast, fresh-from-a-trip-to-the-vet, homeless puppy? Where'd he go when he finally got so hungry and weak and scared he could barely stand it? Straight to the closest puppy-nest he could find. And he spent a good portion of Season 4 as Omega Puppy, because even being the lowest puppy in the pecking order beats being on your own.

I think that what might be missing (for some viewers) in Season 7's "Back to the Beginning" agenda is the lack of puppy-ness in the Scoobs and their Demon Auxiliary. It makes sense-the Scoobs have grown up a lot in the last few years and become (kinda grumpy) old dogs. Buffy could definitely use a game of Frisbee, in my opinion. And how about Spike, back in Omega position, hanging about shirtless, practically begging for belly rubs?

Admit it, don't you all miss the Scoobie-snuggling? Remember how nice the group hug was in Afterlife? How shocking it was to realize how long it had been since you saw Scoobie huggage? I think the KinM reference to no one hugging Giles speaks directly to the problem with our End-of-Days Scoobs, especially after the wonderfulness of last season's Giles Greetage. I say it's about time for them all to embrace their inner puppy.

Okay, enough with the puppies, already, as what I thought might be a fun little roadside attraction on the path to my point is exhibiting Disneyesque Take-Over-the-'Verse ambitions here. Although I would like to ask if anyone's done any in-depth puppy countage. How 'bout it? Any puppy scholars out there?



Back to Back to the Beginning. Or, Please Pick Up Your #2 Pencil and Open Your Booklets to the Apocalypse Averting Section. You Will Have Roughly 2 Episodes in Which to Complete This Exam. Eyes On Your Own Inner Demons, Please.

So what I'm wondering about the current Just-Around-the-Corner-Apocalypse is this: Do you suppose it will be a cumulative exam?

If so, I think we can put together a pretty reliable study guide/cheat sheet for the gang, don't you think? Now there are two different versions of this "winning formula" as I see it. We can go for the "Hit the High Points", "This worked in the Last Apocalypse" version, which would be something like this:

Step One-Come back from the dead looking pretty. Insult the Big Bad's make-up choices. Throw your looking pretty in its face. Throw the Big Bad through a skylight.

Step Two-Team up with Spike. Wield an unshakable faith in yourself, and a sword. Poke the pointy end into evil things.

Step Three-Arm your friends and acquaintances with stakes and flaming arrows. Blow up public buildings.

Step Four-Rely on your friends, no matter how snotty they've been lately. Become Uber. Speak Sanskrit and rip evil things' hearts out, assuming they have them. If that pesky First Slayer shows up, make fun of her hair and confuse her with witty pop culture references until she gives up and goes away.

Step Five-Jump off something tall. They never expect that.

Step Six-Tell a silly, but touching, story about your childhood. Hug the evil thing till it cries, dyes its hair and promises to stop being such a naughty puppy.


However, since the Big Bad is ostensibly the First Evil this apocalypse 'round, the gang might have to get more comprehensive in their vanquishing technique. This would involve using the winning strategies of all past battles, or what I like to call the "Take this! And that! And This! And this other thing! And that again! And maybe some of this over here!" Approach. This method is more complex, as it requires much simultaneous action, but the advantage is, *something's* got to work.

I started a list of all the things the Scoobs would have to wear and carry and say and do, but it got really, really long and I lost enthusiasm for putting so much effort into telling a joke that I wimped out near the end of season three. Here's a partial list, if anyone else would like to continue-

Trick the bad guy into thinking it's daylight.
Mirror for reflecting the spells of bad witches
Tape recording of bat sonar
Handy crematorium
Pit of demonic hyenas
Circle of online binding spell chanters-lots available for this, but may I recommend this forum? We've probably got the highest number of Latin Conjugators (sounds faintly dirty, that;). Plus, never at a loss for witty come-backs and pop-culture quippage, which is key in any battle.
Enlist the aid of dummy demon hunter
Face your fears
Wake the kid in the coma
Throw a curtain over any invisible things
Can't be said enough-crossbow, pretty dress. A lethal combination. And Xander around as auxiliary oxygen source/mouth-to-mouth expert.
Like I said, get rid of any kids that might be hanging about.
Zombie hacking
Get your mom to hit the bad guy with an axe--everything's afraid of Angry Mom
Give the bad guy a choice between dying or kissing Xander
Slice its tail off
Wear a princess costume, play the part-surprises bad guys when you can still kick their ass
Release the inner ripper
Ice skates, handy for decapitating kicks
Team up with the "other" slayer
Can of Acme super adhesive, Super-Squisher(tm) shoes, much stomping
Get rid of any evil robots
Never carry eggs
Rocket launcher
Tranquilizer gun
Force Amy to reverse her spell
Everything must be done while Buffy has a fever of 107
Sacrifice an evil coach to a pit of sea monsters
Pissed-off Ghandi Impression
Shovel to the eyes
Really Big Stake
Handily Insane Vamp/Ticked-off Werewolf Tag Team
Insatiable Ambition to be Homecoming Queen
Exposed gas pipes and a lighter
Convince the evil thing to seek relationship counseling
Smash the power center
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow
Remember, being tied to a stake can be an advantage for a Slayer
Don't take drugs! Even from your Watcher.
Silence is golden. Xander bluffs well with bombs.
Willow goes a little loopy when she wears leather. All-synthetic fibers for that missy. In a pinch, anything pink, fuzzy or vaguely birthday cake will do.
Watch out for that "other" slayer


Okay, that's it for me-off to watch Season 3!

---Haecceity

[> The Above Post is Long. "Pull Up a Chair, Stay Awhile" Long. -- Haecceity, 19:35:20 02/08/03 Sat


[> [> But Funny. And of No Philosophical Import Whatsoever. Also Rambling. Did I Mention the Puppies? -- Haecceity, 19:36:30 02/08/03 Sat


[> [> [> Ok, I've been advised it's NOT long. It just took awhile to type. -- Haecceity, 22:49:18 02/08/03 Sat


[> [> You call that long? Ha! -- Caroline, 20:30:47 02/08/03 Sat

Try OnM, shadowkat and other posters in the archives.

But very funny post.

[> [> [> Yeah, I know. -- Haecceity, 21:01:28 02/08/03 Sat

It wasn't even as long as some of my *own* three-parters, much less the epic-ness of an OnM review or S'kat's daily output. But I'm just working up to strength, gotta take things easy for a bit--moving to California has sapped all my New York sassiness/ability to ramble at great length and at high speeds (with quotes!). The "watch out, it's (sort of) long and rambling" warning was for those who've noticed my latest posts have been on the anemic side.

But thanks for the "funny"--after I re-read it I wondered if I could claim that, as mostly it just sounded like I'd gone off my rocker a bit:)

---Haecceity
Who knows full well she could never hope to match the record for ATPoBtVS' Longest Post.

[> [> [> [> Not Long At All...But Very Funny -- Rhys, 22:16:29 02/08/03 Sat

You have my deepest sympathies with your Kathy-roommate. I can only think that Kathy-roommate's "Diva-ness" and love of "Murder She Wrote" constitute a heroic test of some sort by the Powers That Be. Survive this and prove that you are truly a higher being. Or something like that.

The puppy-ness was funny. I liked that.

As for it being long...Haecceity, you haven't seen a truly long post of mine yet. When you do, you will know from long.

[> clap clap hurrah ::stabbing ovation:: -- WickedBuffy, 19:40:27 02/08/03 Sat


[> That was . . . really something. -- HonorH (impressed), 19:46:28 02/08/03 Sat

Yes, really quite . . . something. How much coffee you been downing lately, Haec? No reason; just asking.

[> [> Colour me impressed by your speed-reading;) -- Haecceity, 19:57:29 02/08/03 Sat

No coffee, ever. Makes me all Season 1 & 2 Willow telling fibs jittery. But *have* been reading thick, thick tomes on narrative discourse, slightly seasoned with Plato's Timeaus (I *know* I spelled that one wrong, but don't want to look it up) all day. Plus, "Murder, She Wrote" is on in the next room and I'm trying to drown it out with furious typing and old-school Cibo Matto.

---Haecceity,
admitting her style of punctuation makes her sound loopy, hepped up and just a little dada-ist, herself.

[> Re: Killer work -- upon its head you have hit why I L-U-V BtVS -- pr10n, 21:54:11 02/08/03 Sat


[> Nice thoughts on Seasons 1 & 2 -- Dariel, 10:37:03 02/09/03 Sun

Which I've never seen, having come to BtVS late and being of the cable and DVD-challenged minority. (Not a Luddite, just really broke. And well, old enough to remember when television was free, dammit!)

But, happy days! Just noticed that the local UPN affiliate here in New York is running Season 1 on Sundays, so I'm jumping right on it!

To jenni and all others interested in enlightenment: -- Honorificus (Wisdom Incarnate), 19:59:10 02/08/03 Sat

I posted the following quiz for the newbie the other day, and, showing very good taste, she took it:

1) The most important thing about BtVS is:
a) the theological, philosophical, and sociological ramifications of each episode
b) Spike, 'cause like, he's so majorly hot!
c) the fight scenes
d) the fashions

2) When you sit down to watch each week, you watch because of:
a) things to discuss on ATP
b) Spike, 'cause like, he's so majorly hot!
c) Buffy hitting things
d) your morbid curiosity about who gets the shaft from the wardrobe department this week

3) When you discuss the show with your friends, you discuss:
a) Jungian archetypes in the behavior of vampires
b) Spike, 'cause like, he's so majorly hot!
c) how cool the fight choreography was and whether or not you could spot SMG's doubles
d) Dawn's hair, Buffy's pants, and why they keep putting Anya in those froofy blouses

4) The best thing about Buffy the character is:
a) the message of female empowerment contained in her very ironic appearance and name
b) Spike, 'cause like, he's so majorly hot!
c) she kicks ass!
d) occasionally, she's truly fashion-forward

5) The best male character on the show is:
a) Xander, the Everyman through whose eyes we see Buffy's world
b) Spike, 'cause like, he's so majorly hot!
c) whichever guy's most useful in kicking demon booty this week
d) Giles, who could float my boat all the way across the Pacific and back

6) The way I'd describe "Angel" as a series is:
a) a meditation on remorse, redemption, and the incongruences of living in a body that contains both a demon and a soul and craves human blood for sustenance, yet also craves human companionship
b) don't watch; no Spike
c) some fairly kewl action for the guys
d) a chance to perhaps see Angel in leather, Wesley at all, and Lilah's faboo wardrobe on the good side, and the risk of seeing what passes for fashion in the eyes of Cordelia and Fred on the bad

7) Overall, the way I'd describe the Jossverse to outsiders is:
a) a truly fascinating and unique way of addressing age-old philosophical quandaries in a fresh, new way
b) Spike is so, like, majorly hot!
c) a good, old-fashioned ass-kicking good time
d) fashion-forward at its best, a good example of what not to wear at its worst

For the rest of you who might have taken my test in the privacy of your own homes and failed to publish your results for fear of retribution, allow me to enlighten you as to what your results might mean:

Mostly "a" answers: You think too much, and your friends (or whatever passes for them) smell funny. Detach yourself from your computer and buy something red to wear.

Mostly "b" answers: Sit still while I smack you.

Mostly "c" answers: On one hand, you may enjoy vicarious violence. I respect that. On the other hand, you may simply enjoy violence of any sort. In that case, come see me. I've a Minion Application Form you might like to fill out.

Mostly "d" answers: You're a demon after my own heart. Let's chat sometime.

Are you wiser now?

[> Re: To jenni and all others interested in enlightenment: -- Ete, 20:02:46 02/08/03 Sat

>>6) The way I'd describe "Angel" as a series is:
a) a meditation on remorse, redemption, and the incongruences of living in a body that contains both a demon and a soul and craves human blood for sustenance, yet also craves human companionship
b) don't watch; no Spike
c) some fairly kewl action for the guys
d) a chance to perhaps see Angel in leather, Wesley at all, and Lilah's faboo wardrobe on the good side, and the risk of seeing what passes for fashion in the eyes of Cordelia and Fred on the bad>>

b) should have been "only watched seasons 1&2 for Lindsey, 'cause, like, he's majorly hot!" doh !

[> [> Why I watch Angel -- Caroline, 20:26:46 02/08/03 Sat

No, no, no!

b) should be something like

"only watch Angel to catch greyWes with weapons and stubble".

[> [> [> I suppose I could respect that. -- Honorificus (Who Must Be Respected), 00:48:39 02/09/03 Sun

What is it about British Good-Guys-Gone-Bad-Gone-Good that gives me sweaty-naughty feelings?

[> What if one's split evenly in A and D? -- Haecceity, 20:16:45 02/08/03 Sat

Does that make one "Thinks too much, but looks fabulous doing it?" And have to think B and C go together in that I'd like to pull C on all those who answer B consistently.

All in all a most useful test. Of course, only proves my suspicion that all exam-designers are demonic at heart;)

---Haecceity
trying to be fashion-forward and philosophically motivated at once--let's see, what goes with toga?

[> [> Re: A "boot to the head" can be very persuasive... -- Unjust George, 10:43:40 02/09/03 Sun

I find a mixture "a" and "c" answers works best for me. While I like a good philosophical argument, a "boot to the head" can also be very persuasive.

-UJG

[> [> [> ...but diamonds are a girls best friend? -- Ihinnar3, 15:44:29 02/09/03 Sun


[> Re: To jenni and all others interested in enlightenment: -- Rhys, 22:04:06 02/08/03 Sat

Hmmm. I appear to have a three way tie between A,C and D answers. Apparently I am a violent demon with minion potential who thinks too much.

[> [> Minions who think too much are a liability. -- Apophis, 22:11:52 02/08/03 Sat

Those are the ones who start asking about things like dental coverage and pensions. I still haven't gotten the stains out of my temple walls from the last time my thugs tried to unionize. If you ask me (and I'm assuming you did), minions who can read are overqualified. All they need are motor skills for swinging weapons and a need to externalize their anger.

[> [> [> Re: Minions who think too much are a liability. -- Rhys, 22:28:48 02/08/03 Sat

From Apophis:

"[Minions who think too much] are the ones who start asking about things like dental coverage and pensions. I still haven't gotten the stains out of my temple walls from the last time my thugs tried to unionize. If you ask me (and I'm assuming you did), minions who can read are overqualified. All they need are motor skills for swinging weapons and a need to externalize their anger."

Apophis, I think you have minions confused with henchmen. Your average lizard-man demon guard requires only grand motor skills to enable him or her to swing and slash with some degree of accuracy, unending stamina and a physical target for all of their rage. In a henchman, intelligence is not only not a requirement, but actually a liability.

Minions, on the other hand, are expected to possess some intelligence to enable them to successfully carry out instructions of their boss, be that boss a demon, a Hellgod, a mad scientist, or (horror of horrors) a politician. Minions are not the brightest sparks--their intellectual abilities are somewhat curtailed by their blind devotion to their employer/leader/god/whatever--but they do have some ability to think and reason, however limited or narrow-channeled that ability might be.

You see why I say that I think too much?

[> [> [> [> I was all a,b,c, and also e, which means I just sort of... -- Jenni, 00:55:37 02/09/03 Sun

veg out on BtVS sometimes, in frumpy clothes, and think too much about getting physical with Spike...!!!

[> Obviously B is the only one that makes sense -- luna (am i the only one with the picture turned on?), 13:19:40 02/09/03 Sun


[> [> Sit still while I smack you. -- Honorificus (The Disciplinatrix), 16:49:07 02/09/03 Sun


Another One for Debate -- Purple Tulip, 20:26:15 02/08/03 Sat

I was watching "Becoming" today, and I forgot how much I loved the fight scene between Angel and Buffy before she sends him into hell. So here's my question for you all: What is your favorite fight scene from Buffy?

I would have to say that mine is a tie between the Angel-Buffy fight in "Becoming 2", and the Spike-Buffy fight scene in "Smashed". There are, of course, lots of others that are really great, but those are my top two right now.

What do you all think????

[> Oooo, favorite fight scene? -- SingedCat, 21:13:57 02/08/03 Sat

That's a good one, but gosh, with so many to choose from, I think the fights have several different things that make them good, so I propose three categories:

Most Breathtaking

Best Dramatic effect

Most Fun to Watch

I guess the fight scene that most took my breath away was the one between Buffy and Faith just before the end of Season 3, with the Buffy vs. Glory fight coming in a close second.

My favorite for dramatic effect WAS the Giles/Angel/Buffy fight in the middle of Season 2 but is now the Willow/Buffy/Giles/(Xander) fight ending Season 6,

and my vote for Most Fun to Watch would be either Buffy/Giles/Spike fighting the teenvamps in All The Way, or Angel/Buffy/Spike fighting the mayor's minions in Lover's Walk.

And I think there should be a separate vote for Angel fight scenes. The ones between him and Faith are still the best in my book!

[> [> Re: Oooo, favorite fight scene? -- Apophis, 22:20:10 02/08/03 Sat

Most breathtaking - Buffy vs. Faith fight in Graduation part one. It's like the climax of a kung fu movie, with the two consummate masters of their art clashing together to determine who's the best. It also features Eliza Dushku, and anything with her in it is breathtaking (yes, that includes The New Guy).

Best dramatic effect - Giles vs. Angelus at the end of Passion. Firstly, there's all the emotion involved on Giles' end; all the rage and despair finally coming to a violent head. Secondly, it features a man beating someone with a flaming baseball bat, which is just plain cool.

Most fun to watch - Buffy vs. the Trio at the end of Gone. Only Mutant Enemy would have the stones to film an invisible fight scene.

[> [> [> Re: Oooo, favorite fight scene? -- HonorH, 12:01:34 02/09/03 Sun

I *loved* the invisible fight scene! It's one of the best visual gags of the show, right up there with Buffy's "Him" attempt on Principal Wood's life.

[> [> Re: Oooo, favorite fight scene? -- zantique, 22:22:00 02/08/03 Sat

My all-time favourite for so many reasons would have to be season 4's all-kicking/scratching/hair-pulling, no-holds-barred cat fight between Xander and Harmony.

and the Peckinpah slow-mo gave it an extra layer of intertextual and stylistic irony that made it all the more delicious...

[> [> [> Re: Oooo, favorite fight scene? -- SingedCat, 22:58:41 02/08/03 Sat

---And the Award for Best Alliterative Rationale For a Lame Fight goes to-- zantique!

[> I know it's not "noble", but It's gotta be the Xander/Harmony catfight -- Haecceity, 22:47:31 02/08/03 Sat


[> [> Re: It's gotta be the Xander/Harmony catfight - yes yes yes!!! -- Jenni, 23:26:40 02/08/03 Sat


[> [> [> Might I add a woo and a hoo to this pick? -- Rob, 11:33:41 02/09/03 Sun


[> Faith/Buffy fights -- Quentin Collins, 23:26:45 02/08/03 Sat

I have always been partial to fights between Faith and Buffy. Their battle royale at the end of "Graduation Day Part 1" had to be one of the best fights and most shocking moments I have ever seen on the show.

And their fight in "Who Are You" when they had changed bodies always chokes me up. Faith's self loathing as she pummels her own body really helped reveal how complex a character Faith is.

[> Fighting is wrong, unless you're watching it on TV -- Valheru, 23:35:54 02/08/03 Sat

Like favorite villain and favorite Xander speeches, this is a hard one because of all the candidates. So instead of picking one, I'll pick ten, in no order whatsoever (they're all tied in my heart):

1) Buffy vs. Faith ("Graduation Day") - If for no other reason than the pure rage with which each combatant fights. There's a tangible feeling that, given the chance, Buffy and Faith would gladly rip the faces off each other. Plus, Chris Beck's score was so memorable that it can be thought of as the "Faith/Buffy Theme" (as it was later used in "This Year's Girl").

2) Buffy vs. Angelus ("Becoming") - The ultimate lover's quarrel and a brilliant swordfight in one neat package. Angelus's verbal taunts, his cocky swagger, and the widening maw of Acathla...if you didn't want Buffy to seriously kick his ass before, you do now. Also the only time I really feared for Buffy's life in a battle.

3) Buffy vs. Spike ("School Hard") - BUFFY: "Do we really need weapons for this?" SPIKE: "I just like them. They make me feel all manly." And so begins the first (and still one of the greatest) of many showdowns between the Vampire Slayer and William the Bloody. Spike's street-style fighting is more than a match for Buffy and only Joyce's timely rescue denies Spike a third bragging right. And I still think that, one-on-one with no pesky emotional hindrances or outside help, Spike could beat her.

4) Buffy and the Scooby Gang vs. Glory and the Minions ("The Gift") - Before BtVS moved to UPN, the best Smackdown was on the WB. Vince McMahon would be envious of this steel-cage-on-a-tower match, complete with Troll Hammer, power-draining orb, brain-sucking spells, Buffybot decoy, telepathic tag-teams, projectile tongue, wrecking ball, the Hand of Giles, and a pissed-off Anya with a baseball bat. The sense of motion in the Glory/Buffy fight was superb (and more kudos to Chris Beck's score). Spike's ill-fated charge to the rescue was heartbreaking. And wow...that ending.

5) Buffy, Angel, and Spike vs. the Mayor's vampire brute squad ("Lover's Walk") - The best choreographed fight in the whole series. Each hero (or anti-hero) has a clearly distinct fighting style: Buffy's powerful grace, Angel's brute fisticuffs, and Spike's down'n'dirty brawling. Once they get inside the magic shop, the fight is less spectacular (though the holy water attack was inspired), but I could watch them fight in the street for hours.

6) Sunnydale High vs. the Mayor Ascendant and his vampire army ("Graduation Day") - No fight has made me stand up and cheer more than this one. The scale is immense, but it's the small things that stand out. Xander as general. Oz keeping an eye on everyone's back. Angel, Wesley, Percy, and the basketball team to the rescue. Larry's tragic death (at the...uh...tail of a phallic symbol, no less). Harmony's death (and off-screen undeath). Jonathan finally getting to pummel someone, then later protecting Cordelia from the explosion. Wes's comic relief. Oz leading the students toward the vampires, while making sure Willow stayed behind him. And of course, Cordelia staking her first vampire. Oh, to have Giles blow a school up every year...

7) The Scooby Gang and Amy vs. M.O.O. ("Gingerbread") - Not really a fight, per se, but a running confrontation. What I like most about this is how, despite being separated and unable to communicate, the Scoobies still exhibit teamwork. Xander and Oz lead the guards away from the door, unwittingly clearing the way for Giles and Cordelia to get in. Cordelia gives Giles room to perform his spell, then saves Buffy and Willow from the flames. Giles disrupts the illusion, freeing the adults from the demon's spell and giving Buffy something tangible to fight. And only then is Buffy able to destroy Hansel and Gretel. Top it all off with Oz's classic line, after he and Xander fall through the ceiling once everything's over: "We're here to save you."

8) Buffy, Angel, and Giles vs. Balthazar and El Eliminati ("Bad Girls") - Once Angel makes his dramatic entrance, he and Buffy fight superbly. Like "Lover's Walk," care is clearly taken to make them distinct in battle. But what makes this fight great is Giles's first in-character kicking-of-ass to save Wesley's life. Balthazar's death isn't too shabby, either.

9) The Scooby Gang, Angel, and Spike vs. the Chumash Hus ("Pangs") - Buffy, Giles, and Spike play Alamo inside Giles's apartment while Anya, Willow, Xander, and Angel come to their rescue. It's great to see Angel back. But it's not just the multiple "fronts" that make this stand out; no, that award goes to Spike, who has one of the purest comedic lines in the whole series: "A bear! You made a bear! Undo it! Undo it!"

10) Buffy and Riley vs. the Gentlemen ("Hush") - The contrast between two worlds--military science and Slayer supernature--is highlighted in Buffy and Riley's first tag-team fight. In keeping with the theme, the two are able to communicate by their technique in the best non-Angel tag-team Buffy has ever had. Doesn't hurt that the Gentlemen are the creepiest villains, either. Oh, and I don't need to give Chris Beck any back-pats for this score: the Emmys already gave it to him.

11) Buffy vs. Faith ("This Year's Girl") - With the distinct Buffy/Faith battle-music in the background, the two Slayers face off in the Summers' house. And I thought they had crashed in to a lot of things in their previous fight...

12) Buffy vs. Spike ("Fool For Love") - It's more of a ballet concert than a fight. I mean, you know a show must be excellent when it uses a fight to tell a story. It doesn't end well for Spike, and when he goes back--shotgun in hand--for round two, it ends even worse for both of them. I mean, really...when was the last time you ever heard of people exalting acting chops for a fight scene?

13) Giles vs. Wesley ("Graduation Day") - The fencing duel. Wesley, concentrating on his form and opponent. Giles, reading a newspaper and hardly paying any attention to the duel at all. And then Wesley inadvertently subverts the whole thing: "Everybody does seem to be going a bit mad lately." Buffy at its finest.

Okay, I know I said ten when I listed thirteen. Like I said, so many good candidates. Add AtS to the mix and I'd say there's 50 great fights to choose from, 50 fights I'd put up against most movies.

[> For me, it's no contest: -- HonorH, 11:57:56 02/09/03 Sun

The Buffy/Spike/Afro Slayer fighting/dancing scene in FFL. It's so perfectly balanced: the directing, the choreography, the dialogue, the editing, the *performances*, the music, all just exactly what they need to be to make it one of the best moments of the show ever. It's got the brutality of a Slayer's last stand and the beauty of a ballet, with a hefty dose of character development on the side. I think I need to watch it again.

[> [> Re: For me, it's no contest: -- Sophie, 13:43:56 02/09/03 Sun

I loved that fight scene, too. Unfortunately, I am reminded of it every time I happen to get on a nearly empty subway train. :( I particularly enjoy film being used to cut back in forth between two events that are related to contrast and compare them.

Sophie

[> [> I'll throw my woo and hoo behind this one! -- ponygirl, 11:22:47 02/10/03 Mon

Sometimes fight scenes feel like the songs in traditional musicals -- a bit of a pause in whatever's going on with the character at the time. Not FFL, every movement was as revealing as the lines. Maybe because there was no switch to stunt doubles, we really get to see full performances from all three actors.

[> Angel Fight Scenes (spoilers for all aired eps, casting spoiler) -- Scroll, 13:03:23 02/09/03 Sun

I'll take a page out of Valheru's book and list all the really wonderful fight scenes from Angel, since there's no way I can possibly pick my absolute favourite.

1) Angel vs. Trepkos ("The Ring") - A very grueling and gruesome Gladiator-style match between these two demons, all for the sick pleasure of human spectators. Angel beaten and on the edge of collapse, Trepkos throwing down the spear and refusing to make the death blow, the demon slaves rising up to overthrow their oppressors -- and our very first glimpse of Lilah, that vicious bitch.

2) Angel vs. Faith ("Five By Five") - One of my personal favourites. The huge knock-down-drag-out in the apartment, the sheer destruction of walls and furniture, the crash through the window and three-story fall, Wes grabbing the knife, the rain, and Faith's total meltdown in Angel's arm -- a meltdown later mirrored with Willow and Xander in "Grave".

3) Angel vs. Vocah & Lindsey ("To Shanshu in L.A.") - While the fight against Vocah was terrific, the really meaty part (if you'll excuse the expression) is the cold ruthlessness of Angel chopping off Lindsey's hand. Brrr. Say hello to the mutual loathing...

4) Fang Gang vs. vampires ("First Impressions") - Mainly for the severe pounding our heroes take and their "Denzel" discussion. Funny!

5) Angel vs. Darla vs. Drusilla vs. Angel ("Reunion") - Do I even need to list the reasons for the greatness of this fight? Dark, brooding hero hopped up on guilt and love for his family, newly risen vamp quite enraged over the fact that she's a vampire again, and crazy English chick who wants her Daddy and Daughter reunited. Also, "the building was quite tall..." Man, I miss Dru!

6) Wesley, Cordelia, & Gunn vs. Big Demon ("Redefinition") - The Fang Gang's first fight without Angel. They kill the demon, save the girl, and don't actually need surgery afterwards (though I do remember a trip to the ER).

7) Wesley & the Pylean rebels vs. the Pylean priests and guards ("There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb") - Wes the General, lots of pointy swords, guerilla tactics, storming the castle! Cordy chops off the priest's head!

8) Angel vs. Darla ("Offspring") - Pregnant Darla getting a craving for veal, Angel knocking her around in Chuck E. Cheese's, her trying to get him to stake her, him refusing and promising to be there for her... Okay, I'll admit it right now; I may be a B/A 'shipper, but Angel & Darla are more steady as a couple and a much more realistic pairing. I miss Darla!

9) Fang Gang vs. Tragedy/Comedy Mask Guys ("Waiting in the Wings") - AD gets to show off his stage experience with wonderfully choreographed sword fights, Angel gets to wear a tux, throw phallic knives, and look hot doing it, and Gunn gets the girl. Also, we meet Summer Glau who plays the ballerina, and later River on "Firefly". I MISS FIREFLY! (yeah, okay, I'll shut up now)

10) Gunn & Fred vs. Justine, Angel vs. Sahjahn ("Forgiving") - This was just damn good. No offence to the crew on Buffy, but Angel fight scenes just blow me away.

11) Connor vs. Everybody Else ("A New World") - Welcome, VK! This teenaged Peter Pan/Spiderman kicks butt like nobody else. He's got the moves, the power, the grace, and the manic glint in his eyes of a kid who just really loves violence -- no wonder his nickname is "The Destroyer".

12) Fred, Gunn, & Connor vs. Vamps, Angel & Connor vs. Vamps ("Deep Down") - Let me reiterate, Angel fight scenes kick every kind of butt.

13) Angel vs. Gwen ("Ground State") - Again, with the kicking of butt. Not to mention Gwen's really cool powers. Or the very foreplay-like nature of this fight.

14) The Men of Angel Investigations vs. The Beast ("Rain of Fire/Apocalypse, Nowish") - Do I even need to mention the John Woo goodness of this fight sequence? Or Wesley's kickass hardware? Or the Beast tossing Angel off the building like he was a frisbee?

15) Fang Gang & Gwen vs. The Beast ("Long Day's Journey") - Everything starting with the Beast knocking oh-so-politely on Connor's door, Connor's leap up against the pillar and his spin-kick at the Beast's face, his crash through the window and four-story plummet, the Fang Gang coordinating their efforts, and the Beast finally blotting out the sun.

I'm sure as the season moves on, we'll see many more excellent fight sequences. The one I'm waiting impatiently for is Angelus vs. Faith. Oh, that'll be one for the record books (and DVDs)! Can't wait, can't wait, can't wait!

[> [> You know what I want to see? (well-known future casting spoiler) -- HonorH, 19:51:52 02/09/03 Sun

Connor vs. Faith. Not sure if they'll actually end up fighting, but wouldn't it be cool if they did? Dhampir vs. Slayer! Yeah!

[> [> [> Re: You know what I want to see? (well-known future casting spoiler) -- zantique, 21:51:11 02/09/03 Sun

Connor vs. Faith. Not sure if they'll actually end up fighting, but wouldn't it be cool if they did?

Would be even better if Faith had been free in time to take on the job Cordy tackled in 4.07... Now that would have sorted that boy out...

[> [> [> [> Re: Me personally... -- Purple Tulip, 22:33:35 02/09/03 Sun

I'd love to see Connor and Dawn fight it out---maybe after she's had a little more training though. Also, I think a match-up between Angel and Spike would be great---two vamps with souls, both having been in love with the same girl, now that would be a fight worth watching.

[> [> [> Re: You know what I want to see? (well-known future casting spoiler) -- Masq, 10:29:04 02/10/03 Mon

I'm just looking forward to Connor's reaction to the idea of a Slayer. He has so many identity issues with having vampire parents and vampire-like skills, that meeting another human being in a similar situation would be healthy for him. After he gets over whatever mixed-up emotional reaction he might have to the idea at first, it might actually make him feel better about himself.

Faith isn't as well-studied in slayer origins as Buffy or Giles, but she probably has wondered from time to time why there are Slayers and how they come upon their powers. She may have wondered if there is a demon origin to slayers, as we have on this board.

Plus, she's had a tough road in her life, and some of that goes back to her parents.

Connor's not a Slayer, but a screwed-up issues-having kick-butt Slayer's about as close to whatever kind of thing he is as anything else in the Buffyverse.

[> [> [> [> Spec about Slayer origins. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:05:40 02/10/03 Mon

What if Slayers and Connor have the same origin? What if an early vampire (possibly the first vampire) mystically became pregnant with a human child? The child, once born, would be raised by local shamans until she reached adolescence, when she would proceed to kick vampire butt. And, when she died, another girl somewhere in the world got her powers, thus creating the Slayer line. Perhaps Connor is the start of a line of male Slayers.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Spec about Slayer origins. . . -- Masq, 14:21:00 02/10/03 Mon

Male slayers? That's just.... wrong. ; )

Although I do like the irony of the Slayers coming originally from vampires.

I wonder if the first vampire was as snarky as Darla.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I think the first vampire -- HonorH, 14:36:00 02/10/03 Mon

was about as snarky as Noodles the Turok-han.

[> [> I'm breathless! -- Masq, 09:47:06 02/10/03 Mon

Just reading your list, Scroll! I remember everyone of those fights! Of course, my manic rerun watching helps in that regard.

And I miss Darla too. I'm a B/A shipper myself, but Darla and Angel are like two old shoes together. And I think they've run the gamut of every lover's archetype in their long relationship together: devoted old married couple, bitter divorcees, spurned pregnant woman, damsel in distress, Mrs. Robinson, big-time Oedipus (after all, Angel did sleep with his mother Darla and helped Buffy kill his "father", the Master). They've done it all.

And of course their little hell-spawn is the kick-assiest screwed up kid ever! Love to watch him take out two opponents in one blow!

[> Re: Another One for Debate -- Sophie, 13:59:18 02/09/03 Sun

For me, it's not the fist fighting that excites me, but the confrontational fighting where emotions are bare and raw. The fist-fight scenes on Buffy, for me anyway, never compared with the beauty of such scenes in "Crouching Tiger". That said, here goes:

1.The scene were Giles and the Scoobies have just learned that Angel is back and confront Buffy. I adore when Giles reminds Buffy about Angel torturing him, for hours, for pleasure. Torture is a humiliating, yet intimately physical experience, that afterwards, becomes difficult for the victim to talk about with anybody. The raw emotion of Giles' hatred for what Angel did to him really comes across on film here.

2.Giles beating the sh*t out of Ethan Rayne. I enjoy this fight because Ethan is so dislikable and Giles really lets him have it. Giles doesn't stop at the point that it is clear that he has won the fight, but continues to kick Ethan a couple more times. Giles being just brutal reflects nicely the theme of the episode - "Dark Ages" - the Ripper's wild youth and ability to be mean.

Sophie

[> Best Fights and Best Battles -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:44:24 02/09/03 Sun

(I will not be including "Angel" fights here, though they are often brilliant, because I missed the first two seasons and half of the third)



The Best Fight Award is split between:

Buffy vs. Faith in "Graduation Day I"

Buffy vs. Spider Demon in "Selfless"

Buffy vs. Spike/Spike vs. 1970's Slayer in "Fool For Love"

Buffy vs. Angel in "Becoming II"

Buffy vs. Spike in "Smashed"



The Best Battle Award goes to:

The Sunnydale Class of 1999 vs. Richard Wilkins and his Vamp Posse in "Graduation Day II"


The Runners Up are:

UberBuffy, Riley, Spike, the Scooby Gang, and the Initiative vs. Adam, CyborgForrest, and a whole mess of Demons in "Primeval"

Buffy, Kendra, and the Scooby Gang vs. Spike, two Vampires, and two Tarakan Assassins in "What's My Line II"

Buffy and the Scooby Gang vs. Glory, her Minions, and Doc in "The Gift"

Buffy, Angel, Larry, Oz, and some other Prisoners vs. the Master, VampXander, VampWillow, and a lot of Vampires in "The Wish"

Buffy, Angel, and the Scooby Gang vs. the Master, his Vampire Minions, and the Hellmouth Beast in "Prophecy Girl".



Honorable Mention goes to:

Xander vs. Harmony in "The Initiative"

[> It's not really a fight, more of an attack -- Helen, 05:18:14 02/10/03 Mon

Very early season 1 ep, might even be Welcome to the Hellmouth. Someone is following Buffy. She cuts down an alley, the someone follows. Arial shot, Buffy doing a handstand twenty feet up on a piece of scaffolding. Angel walks underneath, looking for her, she swoops down, wham! kicks him the face and knocks him over. Genius.

[> Not the best, but still maybe the peak of Slayer efficiency -- tomfool, 10:49:01 02/10/03 Mon

Everyone's already listed the biggies, but there are so many good ones, that some lesser, but still great sequences get overlooked. In Into the Woods, Buffy is full of rage and confusion after finding out about Riley and the vampwhores. After burning the vamp brothel she's confronted by the vamp pimp and 7 or 8 minions in an alley. She tells them to 'Walk away." Even though she's completely outnumbered, she knows that they don't stand a chance given her current mindset. She's actually giving them a chance at escape. They don't take her offer and the fight that follows is probably Buffy at the peak of her slayer powers. She dusts them all in about 30 seconds. Especially cool are the overhead dusting as a vamp dives over her and the quick three swing sequence that gets three of them in about 2 seconds. But the emotional coda is the final vamp. Buffy recognizes the skinny female vamp as the one who was sucking on Riley. At first she puts down the wooden stick and lets the pathetic creature walk away, as if offering pity. In a fit of conflicting emotions, though, she reconsiders and spears the retreating v-ho in a vicious act of retribution. In addition to great choreography, the emotional complexity of the scene is what make it so amazing. Of course it doesn't hurt that Sarah looks stunning in her long brown leather duster and doesn't even break a sweat.

The capper is Xander walking into frame and saying, "How'd that work out for you?"

What I Hope Will Happen (Potential Casting Spoilers!) -- Wizard, 02:35:32 02/09/03 Sun

Okay, this is your last warning...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

As has been leaked, and as far as I can tell, nearly confirmed, AH will be making a crossover appearance on Angel. She will apparently be bringing Faith back with her.

If this is true, than Willow's purpose in going to L.A. is clear- she will be involved restoring Angel's soul. Given the turn of events, I can't think of any other reason for her to make the trip. But, of course, this a Joss show, where anything can happen at any time, and usually does.

It has also been rumoured that since this will probably be Buffy's last season, and maybe Angel's last as well, the networks have relented, and will allow Joss to do whatever he likes casting wise. This means that if he wants Angel to be in an ep of Buffy, or vice versa, it's a go.

First of all, this is only a rumour. Second, it isn't clear that Joss will do this. But if it is true, then I hope he has Angel and Cordy (at least) to appear in a Buffy ep, preferably the last. I would like to see the show end with as many recurring characters as possible in the last episode. I hope that Buffy and Angel are shown working together, as friends- good friends. I would like Xander to deal with his Angel issues once and for all. And I want to see Angel and Cordy interact with Dawn, if only because we never have. That's just me, anyway.

On a similar note, this is my dream guest cast for the last episode. It probably won't be realized, but a guy can dream, can't he?

The SIT's
Tom Lenk.
Special Guest Stars:
Elizabeth Anne Allen as Amy.
Amber Benson as Tara.
Marc Blucas as Riley.
David Boreanaz as Angel.
Charisma Carpenter as Cordelia.
Alexis Denisof as Wesley.
Eliza Dushku as Faith.
Seth Green as Oz.
Robia LaMorte as Jenny Calendar.
Juliet Landau as Drusilla.

with Kristine Sutherland as Joyce Summers.
and Anthony Stewart Head as Giles.

Who agrees?

[> Restoring souls and getting old -- tam, 05:25:54 02/09/03 Sun

sooner or later, they need to explain angel's "aging" -- the man is so good looking, but 6 years is 6 years -- now we won't even talk about spike and aging -- exactly how old is jm anyhow?

[> [> Re: Restoring souls and getting old -- leslie, 21:35:39 02/09/03 Sun

"exactly how old is jm anyhow?"

Amusingly enough, last week the LA Times ran a review of a performance at the Knitting Factory by Ghost of a Robot, in which the reviewer stated that he was 39. Then the next day, they ran a correction and said he was 40. So, if it was a correction, that means that someone qualified to make such a assertion--agent, manager, whatever--called them up and told them they were wrong.

The "corrections" section of the Times is really becoming the most interesting part of the paper. A couple of weeks ago they ran a retraction of a review of an antiwar art exhibit because the critic said that Bush was an idiot. A critic was voicing an opinion! Can't have that, nosiree! They also earlier this year ran an obituary in which they credited the son's achievements to his father. And then, of course, there is the endless ingenuity of the Times reporters' spelling. Apparently no-one ever told them that when you interview someone, the first thing you ask is how to spell their name.

[> You're forgetting. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 06:51:12 02/09/03 Sun

That a Buffy finale would need the First Evil to appear as all of the past Big Bads, because it would be very cool and it would be a nice throwback to "Lessons".

[> Re: What I Hope Will Happen (Potential Casting Spoilers!) -- maddog, 06:51:14 02/09/03 Sun

I like the list, but there are a few that don't really make sense. Oz for instance. What possible reason could he have to come back to Sunnydale? It's not like anybody else is aware of an apocalypse except the ones that are in the midst of it. The reason would end up being random and corny.

And Jenny, um, besides being dead, she'd be another one that would be a stretch to have her come back(unless she's a vehicle of The First again, but that's redundant).

The rest looks good (though pulling off a Tara return would be the height of all surprises). I may add in Jonathon and Warren(just to round out the geek trio). Harmony (if she hasn't been staked...I keep forgetting if she had been or not)...wouldn't it be just like her to waltz back into town to give her Spikey one last chance with her just as they're about to fight an apocalypse off? :) Or how about Glory and/or the Master fighting on the side of the apocalypse...added incentive for Buffy.

I still don't understand why the WB would cancel Angel. The ratings couldn't be that bad. In fact, weren't they better than Buffy's are now? And besides, the show will only be 4 years old by the time it's done. And it's done well to become separate from Buffy for the most part. I'm sure they could do another year or two with no problems...even steal a few Buffy characters if need be (though as I say that the only one that would make sense is Willow...Angel and Xander never got along, and it may just be best to let the Buffy crowd fade into black....otherwise we'd have to ask Willow every three seconds how Buffy was and it would ruin the separation they have right now).

I agree that the only way to make this a Buffy SERIES FINALE is to get Angel and Cordy, and possibly Wes back. There are so many dynamics that need to be settled. Buffy/Angel, Xander/Angel, Spike/Angel(to see Spike with a soul and fighting for good is gonna shock the hell out of everyone), Cordy/Xander(which is one I'm looking forward to...they've both matured so much over the years...they've become so much more an intricate part of their gangs), Dawn/Angel or Cordy.

[> [> Re: What I Hope Will Happen (Potential Casting Spoilers!) -- Dochawk, 07:31:28 02/09/03 Sun

Angel's ratings are poor. There is one episode (the Vegas one) where they did exceed Buffy, but barely and since then have been on the long slow drift down. Putting it on the air against Bachelorette/West Wing/American idol meant that the WB had to have something. Add the need for contract renewals for DB and CC, don't count on Angel to survive.

[> [> [> Endless Possibilities -- Buffyboy, 12:13:27 02/09/03 Sun

I'm afraid I must agree with Dochawk. Last Fall the TV season began with three ME productions. It looks like next Fall may begin with no ME productions. The best hope seems to be another spin-off from BtVS without SMG, but I, for one, am not holding my breath. What then, will people discuss on this board? Perhaps Honorificus can discuss the fashions on the Law and Order franchise, OnM can write lengthy reviews of each and every version of CSI and what is sure to be seven new imitators next season and Shadowkat can analyze the psychological aspects of the Jimmy Kimmel show, etc. The possibilities are simply endless.

[> [> [> [> Re: Endless Possibilities -- Alison, 12:56:18 02/09/03 Sun

that's such a sad thought..will we all just end up rehashing old buffy episodes 'til the end of our days?

[> [> In case of major crossover... (usual well-known casting spoiler) -- KdS, 11:43:32 02/09/03 Sun

What I'd long to see:

a) Angel finds out about Spike's soul
b) Angel finds out about why Spike went and got it
c) Buffy finds out about Connor and Darla
d) Xander finds out the only purely human girl he ever got close to isn't any more
e) Cordy finds out Xander's rich and successful
f) All the Sunnydale gang find out Wes is a bad MF
g) All the LA crew find out Willow is a bad MF
h) Faith finds out Willow tortured people and tried to destroy the world

With all the violence those little revelations are likely to create, who needs a Big Bad?

[> Re: What I Hope Will Happen (Potential Casting Spoilers!) -- Sergio, 07:27:49 02/09/03 Sun

Willow is going to Angel to allow Fred to understand her true destiny (which is Willow, Willow/Fred shippers can dream can't they), and in the meantime she restores Angel's soul.

[> Casting wish lists for BtVS... -- Dariel, 08:31:43 02/09/03 Sun

When I was in high school, one of our football rivals had a team called "The Thundering Herd." (I think their mascot was an antelope, or maybe a buffalo.) Anyway, that's what these lists bring to mind. Just way too crowded to do the characters, and the audience, any justice.

I want the last episodes and the finale to be about our current characters--Buffy, Spike, Willow, Xander, Dawn, Anya, Giles. They have plenty of issues among them to take up the rest of the season, and then some. Plus, they've moved on from their relationships with people like Riley, Cordy, Oz, and Dru. I'm sure none of the BtVS characters have given Wes a second thought since he left. Why bring them back?

The only other characters I might want to bring into the mix are Angel and Faith, because they and the BtVS characters still have some things to say to each other.

[> [> Wesley -- Dochawk, 11:30:00 02/09/03 Sun

Well they should, Wesley being a former member of the watcher's council (just as Giles is a former member) should be at risk from the bringers (as should Faith). he at least deserves a heads up.

[> [> [> Good point. Funny Giles hasn't checked on him -- Dariel, 19:02:19 02/09/03 Sun

And I have nothing against giving the guy a call. Just don't think he needs to show up on BtVS!

My analysis of "Soulless" is up -- Masquerade, 14:30:01 02/09/03 Sun

Here

Loved this ep! For Angelus connoisseurs like myself, this episode was a four-course meal with a complementary carafe of plasma on the side. "Mmm... good."

Also:

o made some updates to the subject index,
o put the new section on self-determination in order,
o did a complete re-vamp on the section on the moral ambiguity of Connor, and added a new section on Connor's most impulsive finest moments.

[> I vote for Theory #3 (b) -- Rufus, 15:31:15 02/09/03 Sun

Of course I've said it enough....Liam is Angel is Angelus....they also went with the addiction analogy which you could see when we had Angelus say "What does a guy have to do to get a drink around here?" His taunting of Wes, Cordy, Fred, Gunn, Connor...sounded more like a drunk on a destructive ramble, using what he would normally keep to himself but the fact that he is drunk/stoned/soulless has allowed him to reveal that he knows more than he has let on....leaving me to suggest a soundproof room for Gunn and Fred...if they stay together.

[> [> I agree, with a twist... -- Peggin, 15:54:22 02/10/03 Mon

To start with, I don't care what we've been *told* on the screen -- if something we've *seen* on the screen contradicts something a character told us, all that means is that the character was wrong. Maybe it was a theory but he didn't have all the facts; maybe it was something he was taught and never questioned; maybe it was an outright lie. But if we've seen something that proves the statement wrong, then I trust what I've seen with my own eyes more than things that people have told me.

I don't think the soul contains any the personality or the memories of the human being. In Living Conditions, when Buffy's roommate sucked out two thirds of her soul, Kathy didn't start to take on Buffy's personality and she didn't pick up any of her memories. There really wasn't much change in Buffy's personality, except that she seemed more inclined to do and say things that you would normally expect Buffy to feel guilty about doing. Buffy still considered herself Buffy, despite the fact that someone else had most of her soul. The idea that the soul contains things like personality or memories seems inconsistent with what we saw in this episode.

I also don't think the demon contains things like personality and memories. We saw the demon in its purest form in Pylea, and it was just a feral beast. It didn't seem to have any memories or thoughts and it did not appear to be a sentient being. The idea that the demon contains things like personality or memories seems inconsistent with what we saw in that arc.

I also don't think the evil inside of Angel has anything to do with the demon. The way I look at it, if you could have taken away Liam's soul while still leaving him human, the result would have been a monster just like Angelus, only without the superpowers and immortality and without a need for blood to survive. But I don't think the demon "made" him evil -- he would have been just as evil if he had been Liam without a soul. Remember the AtS season one episode IGYUMS? The little boy, Ryan, didn't need a demon to make him a monster; he was a monster because he didn't have a soul.

Of all the characters we've seen both as a soulless vampire and as either a human or with a soul, Angel is the only one who seems to regard himself as two separate people depending upon which state he was in. Darla was the same person, whether she was human, vampire, or vampire infected with her child's soul. Harmony was still Harmony, although perhaps a little more inclined to not give a crap if her actions were hurting people. Spike is still Spike, although now he does seem to be more concerned about how his actions affect others. None of these characters consider themselves to be totally different people depending on whether or not they have a soul.

I think we may have been given some insight into the reason why Angel does this while watching Spike deal with the immediate aftermath of getting his soul.

When Spike first got his soul, he seemed to have an extreme form of Multiple Personality Disorder. It was as if, at any given moment, he could only deal with one portion of everything he had ever been and done. One moment he'd be completely William, another he'd be Spike from Harsh Light of Day, and another he'd be Spike from The Gift. Getting his soul back fractured his mind, and it took time and human interaction before he seemed to recover. As he started to come to terms with everything he had done without his soul, the different parts of him seemed to start to integrate into a coherent whole. But this only really happened after he admitted that *he* was the one who had done all of those things. (The whole conversation with Buffy from NLM where he talked about everything he had done and admitted that there was no one else.)

Angel has never done this. There have been a few times when it seemed like he was starting to claim responsibility for his past actions, but then he will back off again and treat his evil self as someone "other". And, in a sense, this may be true. Perhaps, Angel had a similar reaction to Spike's when he first got his soul, and, because he spent many years without any human interaction or support, his mind never fully healed. Maybe Angel and Angelus are two separate "people" living inside of a single mind in the sense of someone suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder.

If this is true, "Angel" is a constructed personality; something Liam/Angelus/Angel's brain made up, because he just couldn't deal with the fact that there was that much evil inside of him. Maybe, in this sense, "Angel" isn't responsible for any of Angelus's acts, because he is just a construct, just one portion of the whole person. But this isn't healthy. All of the traits that his brain couldn't handle and that he labeled "Angelus" are still a part of him, but Angelus only exists as a separate person so long as Angel's mind continues to reject the Angelus parts of him. In order to recover, the first step has to be admitting that there was no one else, and that he was the one who had done those things.

[> [> [> Angel in recovery (speculation only) -- Masq, 16:11:57 02/10/03 Mon

"In order to recover, the first step has to be admitting that there was no one else, and that he was the one who had done those things."

I actually think that is where they are going this season. The whole gang seems to be so into this "Angel and Angelus are two totally different people" thing. And Connor seems to think "Angel" doesn't really even exist.

But the truth is, there is just Liam and his inner demon and his soul. And he has to face the fact that he is heroic Angel and he is sadistic Angelus and get over this "It's a Jekyl and Hyde" thing.

It may be the season for Angel to go into therapy!

[> [> [> [> Re: Angel in recovery (speculation only) -- Rufus, 18:25:18 02/10/03 Mon

I actually think that is where they are going this season. The whole gang seems to be so into this "Angel and Angelus are two totally different people" thing. And Connor seems to think "Angel" doesn't really even exist.

I think a lot of Connors feelings about Angel are actually feelings he has about himself. His inability to see past the demon in Angel is part of his rejection of himself. I think Holtz did a number on Connor that negates any love he felt for the boy. In the end to Holtz, Connor was a demon and his love for the boy/exterior never got in the way of his need to destroy all things demon around him. If Angel doesn't exist, we have to ask what does Connor think about himself as part demon?

But the truth is, there is just Liam and his inner demon and his soul. And he has to face the fact that he is heroic Angel and he is sadistic Angelus and get over this "It's a Jekyl and Hyde" thing.

I agree and I think this year through what happens with Connor and Cordy will be how Angel may find a way to live with the complete package of demon and man. This makes me question exactly what "Shan shu" is.....living as human because the curse of vampirism has been lifted or cured, or living as human because he has chosen to?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel in recovery (speculation only) -- Masq, 18:42:43 02/10/03 Mon

"I think a lot of Connors feelings about Angel are actually feelings he has about himself."

Have you read my re-vamped moral ambiguity of Connor? This is exactly my thesis. Connor was raised to hate Angelus and it makes him hate himself. He wants to kill Angelus and might even be hoping Angelus kills him in the process. It's sad, and yes, I think Holtz is responsible.

Dealing with the "demon" in Connor might help Angel deal with the demon in himself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Brilliant discussion, Masq and Rufus. -- Ixchel, 22:37:30 02/10/03 Mon

I agree with your psychological insights into Angel/us. I believe something really fascinating is unfolding here.

As to Connor, IMHO it was genius introducing this character the way they have. The twists and turnings on father/son relationships, reflections of myth (Oedipus and Arthur/Mordred) have really added an exciting dimension to the show.

BTW, excellent analysis Masq and I very much enjoyed the additions on Connor.

Again, great posts.

Ixchel

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel in recovery (speculation only) -- Rufus, 03:27:42 02/11/03 Tue

A question I'd ask Connor would be...If Angel is something that Angelus is forced to wear, what do you (Connor)"wear"? I don't think Connor would be sure as to what to answer to that question as he feels he is the human son of a human Holtz......even though he knows who and what his parents were. I noticed that he still smarted at the idea that Darla "staked herself" to be rid of him. Funny how Angelus and Holtz get the same result in slightly different ways. Holtz hides behind a loving persona and damages Connor, and Angelus twists the truth and gets the same result...this meaning that for Connor only Holtz and Angelus are real...his feelings about Angel are more complex and he hasn't resolved how he feels about the human part of the demon who is his father. Both characters are doing something interesting.....Angel has a fantasy where Connor is a loving son, Connor has a fantasy of a family that doesn't include his real father. While both try to ignore the reality of the other the conflict will only worsen.

Now I'll mention Shan shu.....in To Shan Shu in La, Wes finally came up with the translation of what it meant.

Wesley: "Shanshu has roots in so many different languages. The most ancient source is the Proto-Bantu and they consider life and death the same thing, part of a cycle, only a thing that's not alive never dies. It's- it's saying - that you get to live until you die. - It's saying - it's saying you become human."

Cordy: "That's the prophecy?"

Wesley: "Ah, the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. - It's his reward."


I feel that Angel has made a mistake in how he understands the prophecy....he thinks that he won't live 'til he earns it....where I feel he is living or in the process of living right now....so everything he is doing right now is what counts. Angel has to understand that it is in acting as if human that will be the difference, not just being a champion. This being a "champion" sets him apart from all others, makes him continue to feel like the "other", keeps him disconnected from all things human. This was reflected in Angelus' statement about not being a team player. This is what will have to change and make the prophecy come true...for Angel to ever become human he has to act like one, not just exist by humanity. This goes to the feeling of not deserving more that both he and even Connor have. If someone acts human, in that they live by, interact freely with, care for....in fact become part of the "team" then they are in fact "human". This feeling that while still a vampire he can't be either a team player or fully interact with, keeps Angel stuck, and will keep Connor stuck..feeling like the other, not human..of no value. Connor is here for more than just to be a pain in Angel's ass, he is here to help Angel finally resolve the feelings he has had, starting with his father in Ireland, that he isn't a man...is of no value. Either Angel will figure this out or be doomed to repeat the sins of his father....or as that prophecy said "The Father shall Kill the Son" and death is only one way to kill someone. No wonder Connor threw up at the sight of "Happy Birthday Daddy".

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You hit the nail on the head, Ruf -- Masq, 07:15:37 02/11/03 Tue

I agree. The fact that someone (I still think it's the Powers that Be) gave Angel, a vampire, a son, means that he has to start living his "human" life while still a vampire.

He gave up on a real human life with Buffy when he had the chance for it in IWRY to remain a "superhero" with vampire powers, and I think it's because he didn't feel he'd "earned" a real human life. He still thinks he has to be the supernatural hero, with a distance between him and real humanity, in order to "redeem" himself.

But he knows, he's said it several times himself, he can never redeem himself by doing some finite number of good acts. All the good acts in the world won't bring back his victims, won't erase their pain. He has to redeem himself by Being Redeemed, by changing his life around and becoming a good person. Not by "trying to make up for things", an impossible task, but by living the life of someone who does not want to be what they once were anymore.

And that means making peace with Angelus. And Angel can't do that by becoming human over night. He needs to find a human life as a vampire. That is so right, Rufus.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel in recovery (speculation only) -- yabyumpan, 11:50:49 02/11/03 Tue

" This being a "champion" sets him apart from all others, makes him continue to feel like the "other", keeps him disconnected from all things human. This was reflected in Angelus' statement about not being a team player. This is what will have to change and make the prophecy come true...for Angel to ever become human he has to act like one, not just exist by humanity. This goes to the feeling of not deserving more that both he and even Connor have. If someone acts human, in that they live by, interact freely with, care for....in fact become part of the "team" then they are in fact "human". This feeling that while still a vampire he can't be either a team player or fully interact with, keeps Angel stuck,..."

It really does feel like Angel is in a loose/loose situation with many fans.
If he is focusing on family, caring about them, acting human, then he's in the wrong because he's 'loosing the mission', he's not acting like a 'champion'.
If he embraces being a 'champion' then he's doing it wrong, setting himself apart from family and the chance to be human and what right does he have to call him self a 'champion' anyway?


Geez, he really can't win can he? Screwed on the show when ever he's trying to be one or the other or trying to be both. Criticized by fans what ever he does.

Sorry to sound like I'm ranting but I'm getting really weary of people finding fault in Angel what ever he does.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There's the problem -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:32:44 02/11/03 Tue

It's not just what the fans say. No matter what Angel does on the show, there always seem to be negative consequences. No matter which path he follows, or what he does, it's always going to come back to bite him in the ass.

"Geez, he really can't win can he?"

Nope. Angel's the guy who always gets screwed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Something me, Rah, and yab noticed a few weeks back... -- KdS, 11:05:06 02/11/03 Tue

After Lessons Sky One reran Tomorrow and Connor calls Angel "the Prince of Lies". So at least subconsciously, Connor sees himself as the son of the Devil (!)

Of course, he may still be the Antichrist

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Talking of Christ and Anti Christ (OT re British TV) -- Rahael, 11:22:05 02/11/03 Tue

Did anyone else see "Second Coming" on ITV? I missed part one. Was flipping through channels, thought I'd see what it was about and couldn't put the TV off. A lot of it I watched with jaw dropped. And I could not see the ending coming, at all. Before it happened, I thought I knew how it would play out. After it happened, I though "oh, so obvious", even though it hadn't played out how I thought at all!

And it was so creepy!

I just can't believe ITV got away with screening that.

And, just in case Yellowork is still lurking here - you were so right about Russell T Davies! (Yellowork made some posts about links between stuff that Davies has done and the Buffyverse - he likes BtVS).

And the video is coming out quickly - next week! Good, cos now I have to watch the whole thing.


Don't scroll down if you don't want to see vague Spoilers for Ending of Second Coming. A lot of the issues it brought up were extremely relevant to things BtVS thinks about, and we discuss here on the board.








Judas saves humanity. Peter gives his life up for God.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> See my new topic Rah -- KdS, 11:28:56 02/11/03 Tue

And I have the whole thing on VHS, minus a few seconds close to the end of Part 2 when by video stopped too early.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Talking of Christ and Anti Christ (OT re British TV) -- yabyumpan, 11:30:26 02/11/03 Tue

Re: Second Coming. I haven't seen it yet but I have taped it so if you want to borrow it you're more than welcome. Now you're back in blighty, will you be coming over on thurs are you full up with BtVS and AtS watching from your trip? ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Talking of Christ and Anti Christ (OT re British TV) -- Rahael, 11:34:33 02/11/03 Tue

Well yesterday, I was so exhausted that I didn't think I would be able to make it this Thursday, but I'm perking up today.

What's showing? I've caught up on all of Angel except Supersymmetry (Couldn't bear to watch the poison in the cup of Fred/Gun!) but I only saw Potential of the Buffy eps. So I still haven't seen most of Buffy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Talking of Christ and Anti Christ (OT re British TV) -- yabyumpan, 11:55:36 02/11/03 Tue

We've got Selfless on BtVS and Slouching towards Bethlehem on AtS. Hope you can make it, if not this week then soon, it would be good to see you anyway :-)

[> [> [> Disagreeing on several points -- yabyumpan, 00:05:14 02/11/03 Tue

"Angel has never done this. There have been a few times when it seemed like he was starting to claim responsibility for his past actions, but then he will back off again and treat his evil self as someone "other". "

Totally disagree with this. Angel takes complete responsibility for his actions as Angelus. That's the whole basis of the show, his need to 'atone'. It's the reason for all the brooding and the guilt. It was initially why he fought to 'help the helpless', for redemption. If he didn't take responsibility he would be seeking redemption. There are many times where he says 'I did this or that' 'I was evil' etc. I could list them but I've just come off night duty and I'm just to tired at the moment although -
"I did terrible things when I was bad, that's why i have to help people now, I'm trying to atone" from 'Eternity' comes to mind (quoting from memory so may not be exactly right). So i don't see that Angel doesn't take responsibility.

Where I think the split comes is that he sees that that's how he used to be, that was him before and now he's got a soul he's different and that's true, he is very different now than before he had a soul. The people/vamps you mentioned - Spike, Harmony and Darla - had been recently vamped, in the case of Harmony, recently human in the case of Darla and recently re-souled in the case of Spike. They haven't had the time to form a new personality separate from the demon. Angel's been separating himself and trying to become a different person for over a hundred years. For most of that time he's had to do it by himself and he's gone through many different changes in that time, from the nihilism of 1952 to possible hedonism in Vegas to depression and self loathing on the streets of New York in 1996. I think there's probably lots of other stages he's gone through that we haven't seen yet.

I do think he needs to integrate and accept the demon more than he does, to stop running away from who he really is, but I can't see that he doesn't in some way accept that he is the demon or that he denies responsibility for the actions of Angelus. If he did, he wouldn't feel the need to atone.

"I also don't think the evil inside of Angel has anything to do with the demon. The way I look at it, if you could have taken away Liam's soul while still leaving him human, the result would have been a monster just like Angelus, only without the superpowers and immortality and without a need for blood to survive. But I don't think the demon "made" him evil -- he would have been just as evil if he had been Liam without a soul. Remember the AtS season one episode IGYUMS? The little boy, Ryan, didn't need a demon to make him a monster; he was a monster because he didn't have a soul."

I think there are two separate issues here:
First, wouldn't every one be evil if they didn't have a soul? Isn't that what IGYUMS was about in some way?

Secondly: there is no indication that Liam was 'evil' before he was turned. Sure, he was no boy scout but I can't recall any indication of maliciousness or evil. What the demon did, IMO, was to take all his insecurities, anger, feelings of worthlessness that he got from his father and turn them around/amplify them. With encouragement from Darla and the feeling of power that came from his vampire status (I would imagine that with such a domineering father, it was probably the first time that he'd actually felt powerful), he finally became someone.
"You see, father? - I have made something out of myself after all."

[> [> [> [> Re: Disagreeing on several points -- Peggin, 04:28:36 02/11/03 Tue

Totally disagree with this. Angel takes complete responsibility for his actions as Angelus.

I disagree. Angel rarely says "I did these things" without going on to say at some later point in time "it wasn't really me, it was the demon." I think Angel honestly believes that his guilt lies not in the evil acts themselves, but in failing to control the demon inside of him, and that he is responsible for the evil done by Angelus only because the demon is still a part of him. IMO, he believes he would no longer bare any responsibility for those past actions if he could cut the demon out of his body. When Angel was briefly human in IWRY, and he asked to be turned back into a vampire, it didn't have anything to do with still having things to atone for. It was all about Buffy, and his misguided belief that his being human would get her killed and that his being a vampire could save her life.

First, wouldn't every one be evil if they didn't have a soul? Isn't that what IGYUMS was about in some way?

I mostly agree with you about the message from IGYUMS. I mean, I guess it's *possible* for there to be a human who literally has no evil in them, and that individual could probably be a good person without a soul. But I think you're right about the point being that everyone has evil in them and, if people didn't have souls, we'd mostly be monsters. I'm not saying that Liam was the worst, most evil person who ever lived. I'm just saying that every drop of evil that Angelus possessed was already inside of Liam and that none of it came from the demon.

Secondly: there is no indication that Liam was 'evil' before he was turned.

I'm not disagreeing here either. Everyone has both good and evil in them, and we need both. For example, lust may be an "evil" impulse, but we'd never have children without it; aggressiveness may be an "evil" impulse, but we need it to be able to defend ourselves or to protect others against attack. Losing his soul leaves the vampire's evil impulses untempered. The lust and aggressiveness remain the same, but what changes is that the vampire no longer has a conscience to prevent him from acting on every evil impulse, or to help him channel those evil impulses towards good ends.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Disagreeing on several points -- yabyumpan, 12:12:29 02/11/03 Tue

"I disagree. Angel rarely says "I did these things" without going on to say at some later point in time "it wasn't really me, it was the demon."

Examples please.

"I think Angel honestly believes that his guilt lies not in the evil acts themselves, but in failing to control the demon inside of him, and that he is responsible for the evil done by Angelus only because the demon is still a part of him. IMO, he believes he would no longer bare any responsibility for those past actions if he could cut the demon out of his body."

This doesn't really make sense to me and I don't see any evidence that he thinks like that. He couldn't 'control the demon inside of him' when he committed the acts he did with out a soul because he was the demon, there was no 'inside of him'


"When Angel was briefly human in IWRY, and he asked to be turned back into a vampire, it didn't have anything to do with still having things to atone for. It was all about Buffy, and his misguided belief that his being human would get her killed and that his being a vampire could save her life."

That's not backed up by the show. Although I agree that in part it was about Buffy, that wasn't all of it.

From 'Hero'

Angel: "Well, the Oracles said something bad is coming. 'Soldier of Darkness ushering in the end of days' kind of bad."
Doyle: "So much for the security of long-term savings bonds, huh?"
Angel: "I feel something coming, Doyle. I don't know what, but I know we're a part of it."
Doyle: "Well, if it's a fight they want - can't someone else give it to them? (Angel smiles) It seems unfair, you know? You gotta save all the helpless types around here and now you've got to fight the apocalypse as well?"
Angel gets up: "It's all the same thing. Fight the good fight - whichever way you can."

quote from psyche.

[> Wow! I've been quoted :o) I feel all proud 'n stuff -- yabyumpan, 22:51:17 02/09/03 Sun

Great review. I'm going with 3b as well. For me that's what makes him so compelling. The constant struggle to do what's right, battling with the ever present urge to do/be just the opposite. I think that's what the whole 'champion' thing is about, to get as far away from those inner urgings as he can. I think it can be traced back to the last thing he said to his father before he killed him

"Angel: "You told me I wasn't a man. (Slowly stalks closer to his dad) You told me I was nothing. - and I believed you. You said I'd never amount to anything. (His dad stares at him with wide-open eyes) Well, you were wrong. (Angel morphs into vamp face) You see, father? - I have made something out of myself after all." "

What he made of himself into was a sadistic killer, taking his pleasure in the suffering of others, especially if he was inflicting the suffering. By being a 'champion', he's becoming the opposite of all that (or trying to be). Of course, until he stops running away from what he actually is, a mixture of the monster and the man, it's always going to have power over him. Like a recovering alcoholic who knows he hasn't touched alcohol for 3years, two months, 6 days and 37 minuets. He may not actually drink but it still controls his life.

[> Thanks for everything Masq -- KdS, 08:41:45 02/10/03 Mon

I've asked you a few questions recently and each time your response has been archived before I can do it there. So thanks ;-)


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