February 2001 posts
"*** "For a few moments I was unable
to tell if they were just normal or if he was going to rape her.
She is strong enough to have stopped him so I will assume it was
not rape."
*** "I agree with you -- it almost makes Spike's chaining
up of the slayer look tame by comparison." ***
*** "Also disturbing to me was the encounter between Cordelia
and Angel." ***
Quote #1-- I suppose I wasn't as disturbed by this encounter since
I tend to expect that sex between vamps would likely tend towards
the rough side. I assumed Darla was just playing along. You do
bring up a good point though in that I'm not shure she would be
strong enough to defned herself if he really did intend to rape
her.
This is an awfully dark topic but it is a good question-- could
a vampire woman be raped psychologically that is? (The physical
fact is obvious). I'm voting yes since we have already seen instances
where vampires do avoid conflict or pain such as in the famous
'vamp hooker' scenario.
Quote #2-- I agree and in fact was think the same thing while
this was occurring on screen. IT's a matter of degree of evil
again. Spike simply isn't in the same class as Darla or Angelus.
This continues to emphasisw what we have already observed over
this pat season and those before-- that Demons in general and
vamps in particular cover a whole spectrum of evil behavior.
Quote #3-- *This* was the encounter I personally found the most
disturbing. For Darla rough play is a pleasant little game. For
Cordy this was real hurt and betrayal-- the clear feeling that
the Angel she knew is slipping away ever faster and Angelus getting
closer and closer.
She had stated in the past that if Angel ever 'reverted' she'd
'Stake him in a minute'. But she has too much invested emotionally
to make this happen as easily as she says it."
She had stated in the past that if Angel ever 'reverted'
she'd 'Stake him in a minute'. But she has too much invested emotionally
to make this happen as easily as she says it.
Thought I doubt we'll see the return of Angelus next week (though
shades of him seemed to appear in the past few eps) if he were
to return I think Cordelia would take him out if he reverted.
I agree it wouldn't be easy but she is the only one of the the
LA SG to know first hand what it means to live with Angelus roaming
in your life and still live to tell the tales. She vowed to Angel
she would and as much as she's hurt now by his attitude she would
stake him to prevent him from doing more harm. I'm sure plan A
would be to call Willow to do another curse but Plan B C & D would
be to stake him.
Made a post and got an error
message when I submitted. That's what I get for not writing it
elsewhere first.
"Ok here's
the real post if I can remember what I said the first time.
I found the Darla/Angel scene disturbing but only in the context
of the story. I too think it's been well established that roughness
is de ridueur for vampiric foreplay. Darla's protest such as they
were had to do with her suspicions of Angel's motives. And Angel
made his intentions clear fairly quickly.
Since stronger vampires like to keep their minions in line with
humiliation and intimidation I would say vampires can and do get
raped. It seems as "good" a method for that purpose
as sticking a finger in their eye.
I have to see the episode again to comment on the Cordy/Angel
interchange. My baby granddaughter decided to honor us with a
song at that moment. All I remember is them bickering over some
book. But I will say this. Betrayal and abandonment can go both
ways."
Well vamp sex in
the Buffyverse definitely seems to have a little violence thrown
in but Angel is supposed to have a soul after all and I was disturbed
by the way he threw Darla around...although Spike's fantasy dream
about Buffy had a little pushing and shoving too. I guess when
you have super-strength a little rough play is a whole different
matter. I flashed back to poor Willow's predicament too when she
gave Oz her virginity and then he later left her to have wild
wolf sex with someone else!
This
goes back to previous line about the symbolism of colour in the
costuming. In begining of Crush Spike has packed away the total
black on black look in favor of green. Once Dru reentered the
picture he struted into the Bronze in he's bad boy black.His leather
coat flying in his wake.
Black = evil bad death etc. that part I get
but why green. Green is rebirth a begining spring life.
that's good...still vague memory
of Spike coming onto the show in season2 didn't he wear a red
scarf too. Very bright could be be blood and carnage.
Wasn't he wearing a grey-blue shirt?
Anyway I spotted another titbit in Blood Ties. When Buffy is coming
out from her fighting practice in the back room of the magic shop
she is wearing browm pants a belt and a brown T-shirt. When you
look at her when she walks... she's wearing the same kind of outfit
Spike is wearing all the time... only the color is different!
(nothing philosophical in this... but you brought up the subject
so I thought I'd say it!) ;)
"I've
been lurking for a while but I decided to test the waters and
post. Forgive a newbie if she steps on any toes.
Season 5 seems to me to be a season exploring moral ambiguity.
The two major storylines thus far this season have been the Glory/Dawn
Key storyline and the Spike Transformation storyline. What ties
these two stories together is that we have three characters who
aren't registering correctly on the good/evil scale of the Buffyverse.
Let's take Glory. She's a god. What is that saying about the mythology?
An evil god? With alternate personalities that appear to be good
(Ben)? Presumably a god in this universe would at least once have
been good: unless we're dealing with gods along the lines of Greek
Roman or Celtic gods who might typify more forces of nature than
moral absolutes.
Then there's Dawn. Is she good or evil? There is one group of
people sworn to protect her and another sworn to kill her because
she is evil.
Spike is another morally ambiguous character right now. I saw
a thread below that called Spike confused. I absolutely agree.
I think Spike is so fascinating this season not because of the
Buffy love angle but because we see Spike struggling against what
he was and trying to become something he isn't yet.
Spike always exhibited more emotion than most of the other vamps
that we've seen; he seemed to form strong attachments (Drusilla)
and he also seemed to be looking for a more heroic (in vampire
terms) existence as shown in his desire to kill slayers and his
comments to Angelus about getting tired of fights whose outcome
you know. Spike is the romantic heroic type translated into the
negative (or evil) opposite. This is probably how the demon has
perverted William's original romantic poetical nature.
The chip prevented him from doing physical harm to a human. At
first after the chip was installed Spike still demonstrated all
his usual evil thoughts despite his inability to translate those
into action. As s5 has progressed however he has been having distinctly
non-evil impulses: his desire to comfort a crying Buffy (even
when he original intention when going to her house was to kill
her); his friendship with Dawn (notice he comforts Dawn with "fairytales"
in the time-honored tradition of all adults -- although his version
are blood-drenched and gory the impulse behind the storytelling
is very human); his instinctive choice to save Buffy when Drusilla
attacked her; his easygoing conversations with Joyce.
Most telling is The Crush. Drusilla arrives and Spike is tempted
to return to his old ways after receiving yet another rejection
from Buffy. Why not try to become himself again? But before feeding
on Dru's kill he has a moment of what -- conscience? it can't
be fear of the chip since the chip only activates if he plans
harm to a human (can't hurt a dead body). Maybe he would have
continued to try to regain himself but Buffy forces his hand by
being in his crypt when he arrives with Dru (remember he didn't
plan to tie them both up -- events forced his hand when Dru attacked
Buffy with the stun gun and he had to react).
The most revealing scene is the confrontation with Dru and Buffy.
Dru says that Spike is so lost that even she can't help him. Is
that true? Spike knows that something is happening to him. He
even tells Buffy he knows that whatever is between them is wrong
and he fears that he is becoming like an empty shell of himself
where only she will remain with nothing left of himself. This
sounds remarkably like what happens with the vamps: the human
soul is gone leaving a memory while demon takes residence in the
shell of the human body. Is Spike's demon leaving or does he perceive
it to be leaving which will leave him with an empty human shell
filled by what Buffy represents (humanity)? This entire scene
sounds too genuine for Spike to be just "putting on an act"
to fool the Scooby Gang. Spike is tranforming but his behaviors
are bizarre as he attempts to demonstrate his transforming self
with the actions that characterized him as a vampire.
Looking at the stalking parallel. Is Spike stalking Buffy? Or
is his shrine to her consistent with what a love-struck William
might have done? It seems like a perversion or perhaps translation
of William's feelings through Spike's actions.
Spike may well return to his evil ways or he may become something
else -- not 100% good but not evil either. If he can translate
his feelings into human empathy (which is what all vamps are missing)
he will have transformed himself. I don't think the writers are
manipulating us with a pretense of a transformation. I think Spike
is on a journey with his final destination in the balance: return
to the Big Bad of s2 or perhaps become something unique in the
Buffyverse: a vamp who transforms himself (without the benefit
of a gypsy curse).
I do think that chip will prove to be non-functional in the end:
when did government issue stuff ever work in prototype without
a hitch?
Yes I guess I'm obsessed with Spike just the way I was with Angel
when the show first started. James Marsters has been too great
a talent to waste on the old one-dimensional Spike (as great as
he was as the Big Bad); as the confused unsure changing Spike
he has been mesmerizing. Who can forget the look on his face when
Buffy barred him from her house? Or the change in his voice when
she asked him if they were on a date (A date? Are you crazy?--do
you want it to be?).
All I can say to the writers is -- keep it up! We're all fascinated.
"
Spike is the romantic heroic type translated into the negative
(or evil) opposite. This is probably how the demon has perverted
William's original romantic poetical nature.
I agree but I wonder if that was the original intention of the
writers? His character as interpreted by the actor is certainly
multidimension and riveting to watch almost to the exclusion of
all other storylines.
I have to admit that I'm watching tonight and next week with much
dread fearful that they will play his character only for laughs
or deconstruct what they have created thus far. Here's hoping
that the writers do not succumb to the easy way out.
I'm really not sure that I should be cheering on such a character
but his transformation has been fascinating to watch.
"You've really expressed alot of my thoughts.
I doubt that Spike is being played out in the original intention.
I think that JW became more interested in this character as the
series progressed. There is something fascinating to all of us
about the potential redemption of evil.
I wonder if Spike will turn out to be a Miltonic Satan exploring
his doubts/regrets about his evilness only to in the end embrace
the "I am Hell" viewpoint and become an even Badder
Big Bad."
"Great post.
It covers all the bases and nicely summarises alot of the arguments
re: Spike's ambiguity/transformation/redemption - whatever it
turns out to be. I do hope you decide to join our discussions
and post with a handle in the future. Welcome.
"I do think that chip will prove to be non-functional in
the end: when did government issue stuff ever work in prototype
without a hitch?"
Yay! Another convert:) *Aquitaine happy now*
"
Oh sorry I forgot my name
on the original post! Meant to post my name. It's rowan.
Wouldn't it be hysterical if the chip had stopped functioning
awhile ago and the pain was (excuse me for the pun) only in his
head.
I think what I find most difficult to navigate in the Buffyverse
is the arbitrariness of some things. Why is Anya okay but Spike
is not? Anya is a demon? Has she expressed remorse for past deeds?
Did she consciously overcome her demonness? Yet it's okay for
Xander to love her and the Scooby Gang has (with some bumps in
the road) added her to the group.
"Very much liked your post
rowan. It's good in a saries when characters change...keeps the
show interesting. I have been watching the Spike character roller
coaster with a lot more interest in the show this season...and
it's been a wild ride. I have my doubts that Spike will be revealed
*aha*! as the several season's back "big bad"...they've
never before decided to rewrite season two...*grin*. Yes I think
Spike is changing and has changed (into what I'm not sure). So
have Buffy and Willow and Anya perhaps most tellingly. Change
is never easy and painless and never in a linear process thus
the roller coaster. Welcome to the board."
Of course after tonight's episode Spike apparently
has taken a little detour from the redemption path. Argh!!! These
writers! They are torturing me with these twists and turns!
Anyanka's evil hasn't been as real for the scooby
gang as Spike's. Then again Anya has made real changes and shown
true unselfish concern for her fellow humans (for Xander for Dawn).
She probably saw them as justified vengeance. [My assumptions
on her transformations]She's completely human again so she's as
non-threatening as any regular human being. Spike....i just doubt
that the demon will reform not so much that it can't. He's just
being conditioned. If he were to be released possibly attachments
to some of the scoobies would make him hesitate to kill them but
i doubt he would remorse killing unknown humans. He loves violence
and destruction in addition to blood hunger.
Welcome rowan :)
I'm with you I am definitely feeling tortured by the writers!
But as Rufus has said it's their show and they'll torture us if
they want to :)
But seriously it would be rather boring if everything happened
in a linear fashion all the bumps and detours have made it so
interesting particularly in Spike's case. I keep going back to
a quote Joss made a bit ago he said Spike may be sympathetic but
he will never be nice or else he would not be any fun to write
for. So what we may end up with (and I hope JM will be back next
year) is a Spike who will pick and choose his good fights with
bad attitude intact. At least I hope so seeing him and Buffy argue
is about as good if not better than seeing them make cow eyes
at each other.
And speaking of tonight's episode how about the look on Spike's
face when confronted by Giles/Ripper? Surprise fear and a little
respect.
"It's interesting
that on 'La Femme Nikita' last Sunday Operations regards Nikita's
sparing his life as sign of her weakness-- proof that she 'isn't
fit' to take a leadership role in Section.
On a grimmer more realistic situation I've often thought that
one of the primary reasons the Nazis could stand by so dispassionatly
while all those people were being exterminated was that they considered
the lack of resistance of many of their prisoners 'proof' of a
lack of worthiness to live. It's like if they don't fight back
they deserve to be victims.
Perhaps this attitude is shared by most demons in the Buffyverse
vamps of course included. Humans aren't fit to be more than food
why they don't even have enough strength to fight us back as we
are trying to kill them.
Ah classic circular reasoning sprinkled with a little rationalizion
and heaping helping of good old 'blame the victim'.
Perhaps one of the influences on Spike's behavious is that he
has come to see that humans aren't as weak as he thought they
are. The Slayer obviously isn't but he has come to see that the
Scoobies aren't complete pushovers either. This probably seriously
confuses the demon-- recall in 'Anne' the outrage at-- "You
don't fight back-- that's not how this works!"
"
Thank
you for the welcome! I love this board! The conversations are
more in depth than what I have seen elsewhere (other boards usually
just talk spoilers which is nice too). As someone with a degree
in Lit I love to talk this stuff to death!
"ATPoBtVS is going to need a new forum for
the great discussions we've been having on the show. I need your
help finding another place on the web that has free message boards
like this one. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
Masquerade
"Dear InsideTheWeb message board owner
Since January 1997 InsideTheWeb has provided free message boards
to online communities. Our goal has always been to offer an easy-to-use
and technically superior format for threaded discussions. Though
we have hit a few bumps along the way we feel we have succeeded
in that ideal. As some of you may know internet advertising revenues
have fallen to extremely low levels over the past several months.
Supporting a community service such as InsideTheWeb is impossible
without a secure source of funding and we are being forced to
close our doors. While there are certainly other means of generating
income we do not have the ability to address them without sustaining
significant losses in the foreseeable future. Therefore as of
March 5th we will be shutting down all InsideTheWeb message boards."
Masquerade
How about http://www.ezboard.com/ ? I don't know how much traffic
this site generates but they seem to be able to handle a decent
amount. There seems to be a number of different ways to set up
the format for their forums so you can probably customize it to
mimic the look of this forum.
Good luck finding a replacement. This is my favorite BTVS board
due in large part to the great regulars here. Unfortunately I
think eesites depends on ad revenue the same as insidetheweb.com
so this may just be a stop-gap measure. FYI their rates if you
don't use ads are:
Monthly Page Views -- Monthly Fee
0 - 25 000 -- $19
25 001 - 50 000 -- $49
50 001 - 75 000 -- $69
75 001 - 100 000 -- $99
Have a good one.
"I'm playing
around with a new threaded message board at:
http://disc.server.com/Indices/147745.html"
"The Harmony thread down
below has inspired me to post something that's been on my mind
and I don't think it's been addressed yet. "Crush" was
Harmony's last episode on BTVS from what I understand and I also
hear that she may be appearing on AtS from now on(supposedly there's
an upcoming AtS episode called "Disharmony" which could
be the one that moves her over to LA(that's not confirmed just
what I've heard).
Anyway my point is I've seen a lot of posts discussing this possible
move for Harmony and everybody laughs about it and how incompetent
Harmony will be in helping Cordy and the gang with their investigations
blah blah blah. What I find noticeably absent from any of the
discussions is that this would be a redemption of sorts for Harmony
fighting good instead of being evil. No one has even blinked at
the possibility that it could happen. Contrast that with any post
that suggests Spike could possibly be redeemed which usually creates
a board war within 5 minutes. There seems to be a double standard
for these two characters. Is it because Spike has always been
portrayed more seriously than Harmony who was always used mainly
for comic relief? Is she just too goofy to be taken seriously
as an evil person? Even if she's an airhead it still wouldn't
change the fact that she is a vampire and therefore by the moral
canon of the Buffyverse that everyone likes to quote when talking
about Spike she isn't capable of choosing to be good or being
redeemed. Yet I hear no howls of protest about Harmony potentially
going to LA to fight crime. Why does Spike seem to push so many
people's buttons? I just found that a little curious..."
Well Jade... I don't know if
that answers your question but when I started the thread bellow
I had no idea that people would leave Harmony behind so fast!
:) Personally I find her fascinating and I still believe that
she's the key to a lot of answers about vampires. She's not bright
and she's the comic relief but there's more to her than that.
Cordelia used to be like her and she redeemed herself with Xander.
Harmony has a bigger problem for redemption as she is a vampire
now. The good point for her is that killing and torturing are
not a priority but still she has a lot of way to cover...
---> Warning! This post contains
*Spike* subliminal messages urging you to forget *Spike* the main
topic of the *Spike* thread and concentrate on a certain other
*Spike* character who shall remain *Spike* nameless 'cause frankly
I'm *Spike* getting ti
"LOL!!!!!!!
We really are being brainwashed aren't we? Let's see how long
we can go without saying "his" name!!!!! :)"
Omygod! Like Harmony
would say! That's pretty freaky all right! :)
"ROFLMAO!
"Wonder what song Harmony would sing at Caritas?"
I guess that would depend on whether her drink were 'Spiked' or
not:) but with a name like Harmony hopefully she could hold a
tune better than Cordy;)
OnM remember how I suggested that Riley's staking of Spike could
be interpreted as the transfer of Cupid's arrow? Well I'm thinking
that Harmony spearing Spike in the back might also produce some
kind of transference... LOL. Maybe Spike will start wearing the
blue angora sweater himself.
A few random impressions:
Without Harmony around how will Spike find his way around his
favorite soap Passions which takes place in the fictional town
of Harmony? And in view of the happenings of IWMTLY isn't it spooky
that Spike told Joyce not to worry about Timmy 'cause he was just
a 'doll' that could be sewn back together???
"
Now now... see... it all
goes back to Spike. Can we let him 99% of the other threads and
give a little shrine to Harmony here! LOL!!!
LOL! Poor Harmony certainly does
have problems with that crossbow although that's pretty fortunate
for the ones she's aiming at!
You mean you think that Spike hasn't worn the sweater already?
;) (Xander to Oz-- should we hug? Oz-- No I think we're too manly...)
( --Insert Monty Python Lumberjack song here-- )
HEY! (damn Evil Clone...)
Seriously it never fails to amaze me at all the little hints and
glimmers the writers drop into this show. How do they ever get
anything done in terms of actual like writing?
I really feel that they must do it unconsciously. I know that
happens since I've done it myself a number of times I write something--
even like a post for this board-- and when I reread it I see something
and go How did *that* get here?
Does this happen to you Aquitaine?
"I
really feel that they must do it unconsciously.
And here I was thinking they were geniuses. LOL.
"I know that happens since I've done it myself a number of
times I write something-- even like a post for this board-- and
when I reread it I see something and go How did *that* get here?
Does this happen to you Aquitaine?"
Yep. And I find that writing in this kind of forum really fosters
that kind of free form creativity. Maybe writing by committee
produces a similar effect. Getting feedback and responding to
others' ideas really gets the 'little grey cells' working - sometimes
in ways we aren't consciously aware of. It's a concatenation of
factors.
"
You're right about getting
the synapses all a-twitter it does seem to help.
You has better not be conning any cats whatever nation they might
be in though or Rufus will be after you! ;)
That Timmy comment is very interesting. One of
the things I've learned about the words that come out of Spike's
mouth is that they are usually getting at some of the truths of
the Buffyverse.
Spoiler ahead
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
In IWMTLY I'm hearing that Spike inquires about making a Buffy
robot (creepy Spike is back). Wouldn't it be interesting if that
was linked to the Timmy comment? Sort of well if I can't have
the real thing I'll create my reality i.e. sew Timmy back together
with technology. That would be typical unempathetic vamp thinking.
But maybe Spike will learn in future episodes that you can replicate
a soul which means no robot will ever do him any good.
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Spoiler ahead
"It is difficult
to discuss Harmony without discussing Spike. Spike's true character
is revealed in the manner in which he treats Harmony.
There seem to be parallels between H/S and S/B -- each is pursuing
a relationship with someone who despises them. There was one moment
I felt sorry for Spike (when I saw the look on his face after
he tried to enter Buffy's house) but then I remembered the physical
and emotional abuse that Harmony has suffered at his hands. Certainly
Buffy's treatment of Spike has been more humane than Spike's treatment
of Harmony (and even if there were a B/S pairing in the future
I doubt Buffy would make Spike dress up as Angel and quote existential
philosophy to "get her in the mood"). We laugh at Harmony's
speeches but she has been the giving person in the one-sided relationship.
Spike is an awful creature -- there is far more humanity left
in Harmony than there ever was in Spike. "
I guess I could feel a little more sympathy for
Harmony if she hadn't formed a gang to kill Buffy. ;) But seriously
Spike's treatment of Harmony is very emblematic of the evil Spike
side of his nature: he uses her for his purposes and then discards
her when he doesn't need her. But Harmony participates in this
pattern with her co-dependent ways. After all Spike doesn't pursue
Harmony to abuse her; Harmony pursues Spike to be abused. He's
her crush her addition just like Drusilla and Buffy are Spike's.
I wonder if we're supposed to impose human morals on the vamps.
They all seem to abuse each other fairly regularly in a way that
would be horrific if they were human. It's very clear though that
each character must embrace one way of life: either the vampiric/demonic
or the human. What has everyone captivated about Spike (whether
you love the storylines or hate them) is that he is someone straddling
the two: his behavior is confused contradictory and we're all
dying to know how it ends.
"After
all Spike doesn't pursue Harmony to abuse her; Harmony pursues
Spike to be abused. He's her crush her addiction just like Drusilla
and Buffy are Spike's.
And Buffy doesn't pursue Spike to abuse him; Spike pursues Buffy
to be abused.
One of the things I liked best about Crush was the poetic justice.
Spike whines about the way Buffy treats him but she treats him
with more respect than he treats Harmony.
I cannot understand why there is such a double standard -- we
see that Spike has sent several unambiguous messages to Harmony
(like staking her) that he does not want her and she continues
to pursue him no one suggests that her obsession is in any way
romantic. Spike's pursual of Buffy is identical -- she told him
previously in no uncertain term that "it would never be you."
Yet Spike gets to be the romantic-poet-guy while Harmony is the
desperate-pathetic-girl.
"
I agree there is a double
standard here. I think it has to do with the fact that Spike is
a main character but Harmony is a minor character for comic relief.
Shows are usually slanted to make the main characters more palatable
to us.
Aquitaine you probably
read that already but I thought about you when I read this. It's
a scene that's been removed from Checkpoint (see: Buffy shooting
script site)
LYDIA (V.O.)
You can't hurt anyone?
INT. SPIKE'S CRYPT - DAY
Spike sits on his bier. Two Council members stand in front of
him braced and tense. One holds out a cross the other has a crossbow
trained on Spike. Lydia wearing a turtleneck stands some distance
away holding a clipboard.
SPIKE That's right.
LYDIA
But you are a vampire.
SPIKE
If I'm not I'm gonna be pissed about drinking all that blood.
Lydia doesn't crack a smile.
LYDIA
So it's this chip in your head that keeps you from hurting people.
SPIKE
My goodness you put that together all on your own? That's right.
Leastways that's what I've got 'em all believing.
The humans all tense at that.
SPIKE
Could just be a hoax though. I fake some headaches everyone gets
used to poor helpless Spike. Then one day no warning I snap a
spine bend a head back drain 'em dry. Brilliant.
If she's scared she hides it well. She soldiers on...
LYDIA
The chip. Assuming it exists. It takes away the... ability. But
it leaves...leaves the...
He smiles at her sexily.
SPIKE
Desire? Yeah I've got tons of that.
She's a little shaken by his flirting.
LYDIA
Um... but we understand that you help the Slayer.
(the rest is the scene as we saw it...)
See you weren't the only one to believe that the chip wasn't there?
The interesting thing here is that they removed the scene from
the episode... Was it reveiling too much!? ;)
ROFL. No! I hadn't checked out the shooting script
for Checkpoint only Blood Ties. Thanks so much for posting this
excerpt Nina. At the very least I know that my wacky theory would
we good enough to get me a job as a professorial type WC member.
LOL. The weirdest part of it all is that I sort of look like Lydia
as well...
The scene you have posted together with the scene that was removed
from Blood Ties (about Spike saying he still wants to kill things
etc.) really puts a different spin on his character. I wonder
why TPTB decided to continue to give the impression that Spike
was benevolent?
Ack! It's enough to drive a gal clear out of her mind. And what's
worse recent developments on BtVS have made it a bit of a challenge
to discuss the show in philosophical terms...
Well if you read the entire script you'll see that
they also took off the part where Buffy says that she'll get Spike
his money if he looks after her family...
So I guess they really wanted to show that he wasn't thinking
about killing and money! Still I would have liked to see that
scene with Lydia... should have been priceless! :)
BTW what does ROFL means (I saw that a few times... still can't
figure it out!)
Rolling on (the)
floor laughing:) The acronym often comes with more colourful extensions
as well such as LMAO (laughing my a$$ off).
I'm definitely going to go check out that script now.
Thanks!!!! Have fun! :)
Does
anybody know who the person is at the end of the series who gets
bumped off in Buffy? I am wondering because the preview said that
it is somebody close to the group. Can anyone help?
"As this is not a spoiler's board... if you
want to know more about "The body" I strongly suggest
you to see the C&S Board (Cross and Stake board) Hope you find
your answer there! :)"
Could
you give me a link please. I'm confused by the links on this board
Here you go:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb85100
:)
thanx :)
Why are all the main Buffy characters either acting
out of character or feeling strange lately? That's the question
that was discussed on another board yesterday.
First the evidence:
1) Buffy has been noticeably out of form lately (since she speared
the vamp hooker IMO). She did kill a vamp in Triangle but she's
barely gone out of her way to fight anything other than the troll
and Glory. She didn't even bother chasing the two vamps in Crush
and let Dru and Harmony walk away. When she fought Glory and the
Troll Willow had to do a spell to save her butt. She has also
been acting very distant this season except for Triangle where
she had a loolipop emotional tantrum. And finally there is the
fact that she hasn't staked Spike despite being chained up by
him... Just plain weird.
2) Xander: He's been alternately strong and quirky. His fixation
about Dawn's crush is weird in the extreme. His reaction to Buffy's
news about Spike in Crush insincere.
3) Anya: Since when does she care so much? While the other characters
are becoming estranged from their own personalities she is becoming
sensitive? She empathises with Dawn and Spike - two not-quite-humans...
4) Joyce: The tumour - need I say more.
5) Willow: The headaches.
6) Giles - no evidence of change
7) Tara - no evidence of change
8) Spike - a surfeit of evidence of change! I don't think I have
to restate anything here since we've discussed the vicissitudes
of his behaviour all season long.
9) Riley - he has one carrousel-side talk with Dawn and he's off
to the vamp brothel????
9) Dawn's memory loss re: Ben morphing into Glory.
So what is making them feel and act differently? Is it the monks'
spell? Is it Glory's influence? Is it Dawn's presence? The more
I think about it the more I think that not only Spike is acting
like he's out of his mind. Is everyone suffering from some kind
of insanity?
Everyone acting oddly because
of the Key? I like that explanation more than some of the ones
I have been hearing. (grin) Dawn (as the key) is an energy source.
Does any of that power spill over into her human form? Could unknown
electromagnetic 'Dawn' rays be influencing everyone's behavior?
(insert twilight zone-y music here)
My own personal hunch is the writers are having a harder time
than usual keeping character consistancy from one episode to another.
We keep getting good episodes but it is obvious most of the characters
are behaving differently from one episode to the next. Maybe Joss
is busy? Or the writers are uncertain what this season is supposed
to be about? It started off heavy with themes of change evolution
and the search for who we (as in the shows characters) really
are. Has that changed?
"I think we are volontarily
misled with everything that is happening to Spike so we won't
see those wonderful details you bring on Aquitaine.
Look at this board... anytime someone starts a thread... it always
comes back to Spike (even if the subject doesn't call for it!)
It's the first tactic: you don't want people to predict the end...
you give them a bait on which they can poke while you have all
the field for yourself to prepare your unpredictable ending. Pretty
smart on their part. By putting Spike in the center of the Buffy
verse we tend to neglect what's happening on the outside but Spike
is only one player and in a chess game he's nowhere to be a key
figure I'm sure.
I love that remark that Buffy has been rescued two times by magic.
This is true and scary. When you think about it though... those
two times she wasn't fighting vamps one was a troll and the other
one a god! Buffy too is out of her mind. I believe she wanted
to rescue that relationship with Riley to prove that she could
have a normal life. She was hanging to him to be rescued (sounds
familiar???:) She's not been very in touch with her feelings lately
no wonder she says to Spike "No feelings"!
As for Xander his need to be the only crush for Dawn is way bizarre
I grant you that. Is it his way to compensate the fact that Buffy
never loved him back? Did Xander ever got over buffy? He says
he did but his reaction to Angel and the laugh he had about Spike
could maybe bring some old unrequited feelings back.
Joyce since her tumor is rarely acting like a mother. It's Buffy
who's always telling her how to deal with Dawn. She tells work
jokes to Spike(??!!!) she leads Buffy to him even though they
just said that he was twisted.
Willow is travelling on a bad road we can all predict that something
bad is going to happen but why? She's a romantic at heart (she
wants Quasimodo to marry Esmeralda) She's becoming even more careless
in her spells than before. Her emotions and mind don't seem to
be on the same level.
As for Giles he's pretty not there again this season...
Did you noticed that Spike is the center of this week's episode
trailer? Something's fishy here! I thought he was going to disappear
for a while (be a lot less present) and what do they do? They
put him in the center of the trailer! We really are being misled
here.... something is happening to Spike there's no way to deny
it... but he's only the point of the iceberg. While we analyse
the ice ouside... we don't see anything inside the water!"
"Joyce's behavior bothers
me. I'm a little new to the Buffyverse so I haven't seen her before
this season but it strikes me that she doesn't really act like
the mother of a teenage girl (just turned 20!) who goes out and
kills nasty-bad things.
She's not afraid of Spike in fact she talks about her work day
as if he was a friend or a roommate. (BTW I thought Spike was
very polite when he kept her from boring him with her story a
second time.) When Buffy talks about Spike's crush on her Joyce
says Buffy should "nip it in the bud" and go talk to
him in almost the same breath as she points out that Buffy's rejection
of him could be dangerous because of his twistedness. She sent
her daughter to go talk to a twisted killer about her daughter's
rejection of the killer's crush????
And Joyce's other daughter...the one who isn't entirely human
and cuts on herself when she finds out and likes to hang out in
the aforementioned twisted killer's crypt...just how is Joyce
handling that?
I like Joyce a lot but I wish she acted more logically!"
If you think her behavior seems
inappropriate now you should have seen her the first two seasons
before she knew that Buffy was the Slayer. Buffy pretty much summed
it up in Becoming 2 after her Mom finally found out:
Open your eyes Mom! What do you think has been going on for the
last two years? The fights the weird occurrences - how many times
have you washed blood out of my clothes you still haven't figured
it out?
Denial much?
I agree the interference/distortion
caused by any of these things that you mentioned is the only the
only thing that works for me. And since we somehow always get
back to Spike when the end season conflict is resolved and the
characters are faced with the cause of their strange/conflicting
behaviour his crush could be explained away by Buffy and SG as
simply another temporary insanity. Of course the viewer through
Dru's comments would know that Spike's feelings precede this time
and that they are still genuine but none of the other characters
would be aware of that. In a way the writers can bring Spike as
low as they want this season and quickly explain it away and give
him back his cool in a flash. (Not that his cool is gone. I mean
I still see it.)
"To erase
all the season by bringing things like they were (before Dawn
appeared) would awfully ring like a "it was only a dream"
plot. That's stale and so dÈj¦ vue!!!! I am sure
the writers are heading towards something else. Gee... I hope
so!!!! :)"
Of course the
viewer through Dru's comments would know that Spike's feelings
precede this time...
Dru's memory was most probably affected by the monks' spell. His
feelings for the Slayer didn't have to be around prior to the
Key's arrival.
1. I think that
finding out that your sister isn't really your sister and she's
an energy thing that you have to protect from a god is going to
play with your mind. Never mind that she realises that she can't
take Glory on 1-on-1 so she has to figure out another weakness.
She hasn't yet. So she's kind of focused on Glory and Dawn right
now. Then throw in Riley going away and Spike's behaviour and
you end up with a Buffy who isn't going to be focused on killing
vamps.
2. Xander has always been like that. He is strong at times quirky
at others.
3. You answered your own question here. She can relate to those
two because she doesn't feel like she really belongs either (being
an ex-demon)
5. Using a teleport spell on a god has to hurt.
8. Anyone reading my other posts on this board can tell you about
this.
9. They were building up to Riley going to the vamp house for
a few episodes. He was questioning his relationship with Buffy.
He thought that she needed someone dangerous and he was interested
in what she saw in vampires (Angel). So we see him earlier telling
Xander that Buffy doesn't love him. Losing his super powers from
the drugs also left him high and dry and he felt useless. For
the first time in his life he didn't have a purpose. He didn't
know who he was anymore he had always been in the military. And
he knew he wasn't being what Buffy wanted him to be and was exploring
to try to find out.
10. Who knows what affect a god will have on one's brain.
I think Xander's been pretty
much in character so far. His fixation on Dawn's crush really
didn't strike me as being bizarre. First he was smug that a nearly-divine
being could be attracted to him (and it's a big step up from his
usual demon admirers) and then he was abashed to find that she
passed him over. Since it's only been brought up those two times
it seems adequately Xanderish. If he starts harping on it every
episode then yeah it would be wierd and silly. As for his reaction
to the Spike news I thought it was quite appropriate. He considers
Spike relatively harmless and it _would_ be pretty funny if not
for all of Spike's stalking (which Xander and even Buffy didn't
know about at the time).
His alternating strength/quirkiness is something he's always had
and it's a part of his personality that's been emphasized especially
in The Zeppo and this season's The Replacement.
There just seems to be something desperate and
edgy about his attitude in the last couple of episodes. I agree
that on the surface he is acting true to character I just think
that The Replacement and Into the Woods showed him moving decisively
in another direction. At the moment he appears to have regressed
(again). The scene in the alley with Giles in Checkpoint was particularly
inappropriate I thought. But like many other issues that have
been brought up this season Xander's ambiguity could just be X
being X or it could be that an energy source vibrating at blah
blah is interfering with his psyche:)
Of
course I'm Spike obsessed here but it seems to me that the (fairly
thin and obvious) plot device of having Dru claim that her affair
with the Chaos Demon was triggered by clairvoyant images of Buffy/Spike
is the writers attempt to bolster the validity of the feelings.
Hmm the impression I got from
Dru's speech about the Slayer being all over him was that she
was seeing a vision of his obsession itself not of any future
possibility of a relationship between them or validation of his
feelings.
True the Key might
be making him swing faster (Restless connection?) between his
extremes. He was very suaveXander near the end of the latest episode.
^_^
Or maybe being split into
two has affected his brain so that they take turns. Kind of an
internal fight between the two halves.
I'm
sorry if this question has been resloved here before. If it has
please just give me the short-answer response.
When a vampire feeds on a slayer and she dies what is stopping
her from being vamped? Could she resist the urge to taste the
blood on offer? Would reciprocal feeding not affect her hence
no new super-vamp? Or did Dracula know what he was talking about
and its the same for a slayer as for everyone else?
It just seems that letting a slayer become a vampire even if the
next is called would be a bit of a disaster for the PTBs...
I always thought a Vamped Slayer
would be a BAD-A$$ Big Bad
I
always figured the Slayer is mortal so she can die and she can
become a vampire. Maybe she'll fight the urge to survive a bit
more when it comes to drinking the vampire's blood. Angel said
that it's hard to fight because the living don't want to die.
I think the Slayer's powers are a different matter. Once her heart
stops the powers are bestowed on the next Chosen One. Since the
vampire doesn't rise right away there's a gap where she's just
a dead normal person. Once risen the vampire will have all of
the memories and experiences of the former Slayer to use (starting
out as a much tougher than average fledgling) but she'll be just
like another vampire.
I have this image of the Slayer's powers being like Miss America's
tiara. When her term ends she hands it to the next girl she doesn't
get to keep it.
I have thought
that this would be an excellent episode. Buffy going against a
former slayer who has been vamped. We could even say that Angel
was the one that killed her and made her. You could have a real
cool scene from the past. hmmmmmmmmm.
There
are several comics about a Dunpeal (half vampire half human) that
slays vampires. The demon fights at the mortal coil inside her
and the greatist enemy is herself she knows if the demon overtakes
her she dies so she comits herself to fighting evil outside and
inside herself.
That sounds a lot like Blade.
We did not care for that movie because it was too bloody but the
idea of a half vampire half human sounds pretty cool. I am not
sure that in the buffyverse it is possible. But who knows this
is fantasy they can change the rules when they want.
I think your talking about VAMPIRE HUNTER D. An
I have read that a Dhampir is the child of a Vampire and a Human
female usually the recently resurrected Husband in european myths.
Isabel: If the slayers powers get passed on to the next slayer
at death then how did Kendra and Faith have powers? Wouldn't they
go back to Buffy after she was brought back?
Buffy came back to life breathing heart beating
can stand in sunlight. Maybe the Slayer powers are attached to
the Slayer's life (soul? maybe but I so don't want to get into
that discussion here.)
And she did die. So the the next Chosen One was all chosen with
her powers also linked to her life. Hers to keep until she dies.
I think the $64 question is: Is Faith Buffy's co-slayer or her
successor? We won't know until Buffy dies to see if a new slayer
is chosen but boy can we discuss it.
Various
other persons on this board have commented on how Anya is gradually
showing more signs of 'humanity' as this season has progressed
most recently when she showed genuine concern and sympathy for
Dawn upon learing of her true nature.
Do you think that before the season ends Anya will say something
to someone that indicates she is starting to feel some regret
for her demon related activities? If so to whom will she first
say it? (Xander Willow Tara Buffy Giles Spike? Maybe just to herself?)
I'm thinking it will eventually happen just not sure if it will
occur this year or in season 6.
My first choice as to person said to would be Xander but I'm thinking
Spike would be a good possibility also. (Remember when she and
Spike were sitting together at that party and talking about the
'good old days'? She's changed quite a bit since then and if she
had a future meet-up with Spike the exchange could be very different.)
Item last and not directly related to the above-- didn't Anya
look a lot like Faith in terms of her dancing style at the Bronze
in the first act of *Crush*? Pretty free-spirited style for an
ex-vengeance demon methinks! ;)
Why
should she feel sorry for what she did? She was just fulfilling
her job as a vengence demon. If she didn't do the job D'Hoffryn
(sp?) would have found someone else for the job. I could maybe
see her feeling bad for what she did initially for becoming the
demon in the first place but after the Troll rampage I hardly
think she'll feel very bad about that. Which brings us to Spike
(I always seem to get around to him). Why should Spike feel bad
about stuff that he has done in the past. Most things he has done
have been for self preservation. He was made to feed on humans
so he fed on humans. It has only occured to him recently that
he doesn't have to do that. Angel has reason to feel bad. He tortured
and killed people. To him it was a sport not just survival. The
horrors he introduced to people were awful. Spikes style was to
kill quick and get it over with he never was one for torture.
And while we're at it Xander was all over Buffy for dating an
ex-killer in Angel and now he is going out with an ex-vengence
demon. Hypocritical or growth? (I'm not making the decision I
would just like to get reaction)
Since he still doesn't like Angel
I vote hypocritical. I guess we'd have to see how he react if
Angel ever became human. I think Xander still fears Angel could
go bad... any minute now! and doesn't think the same about Anya.
Problem is until the 5th season Anya was always reminiscing about
her demon days and what she'd do if she had her powers back. I
think until recently she'd have said yes if D'Hoffryn appeared
at her door. Now she still doesn't regret her demon days she's
simply having more fun as a human and thinks it might be fun to
stay that way.
"Hmmm...
okay it started as a Anya thread and now we have many subject
to cover... let's start with Anya. Anya did torture men for centuries
(boiling their penis and such - as she says it herself) it may
have been part of her job but at some point I believe she would
have to feel compassion for what she did and even regret it. The
strongest force of the BtVS's writer's teem is that they never
rush things. They give all the time necessary to give some justification
for a character's behavior to change. Anya is starting to change
and I'd love to see a scene with her and Spike again. How different
it would be!
I agree that Spike wasn't for torture and that he killed to feed
but it was also a little more than that. He felt pleasure doing
it. A little more than just the pleasure to eat!
As for Xander... that's interesting. He didn't like Angel from
the start and was angry at the prospect of a relationshipt between
him and Buffy but his reaction when he learned that Spike loved
Buffy was priceless. He laughed. "It's funnier if it's true!"
How weird is that! The fact that Xander overcome his love for
Buffy also shows us that Spike could do that as well. We've had
plenty of unrequited love in the series Spike's love for Buffy
could well turn into friendship or something else..."
" I don't think Spike was ever into the kill
of his victims he liked to kill Slayers because it was a challenge.
There's no challenge in killing innocent people. He told Angelus
once "Don't you ever get tired of fights you know your going
to win?" He was more about fighting and challenges (not anything
to do with people) than killing. Atleast IMO."
I like that Luna. I think it's pretty much that!
To kill slayers he risks his un-life every time.. that's the challenge.
The question is: why didn't he seek for more slayers? He only
killed two of them. Maybe he didn't know where they were sent?
As
you say lots to cover...
I'm not sure Anya will ever truly regret what she did as a demon.
I suspect she saw herself more as a tool than anything else granting
the wishes of scorned women. Do we blame the hammer for our smashed
thumb? She may come to see the vengance gig as Not Such A Good
Idea though especially as her love for Xander continues to grow.
Speaking of Xander his dislike for Angel is rooted more in jealousy
than anything else. He saw Angel as a threat to his (non-)relationship
with Buffy. Spike is no such threat. Notice that he laughed at
the idea of S/B but when he learned that Dawn has a crush on Spike
he got very upset indeed! Deja vu anyone?
As for Spike when left to his own devices he is certianly all
about the challenge. Poor old William is still trying to prove
himself after all these years. The chip on Spike's shoulder is
even more of an influence than the one in his head.
The chip on Spike's shoulder is even more of an
influence than the one in his head.
I'm definitely going to have to find a place for this quotage
on my site!
It's not that late...
but I don't understand the quote... what chip on the shoulder?
Okay... maybe I should re-read this quote tomorrow!
Glad you like it! I'd be honored to be quoted by
you. :):):):):)
"Spike seems
to be caught between two worlds the human and the vampire. When
Dru comes back he immediately appears to revert back to his old
self and throws Harmony away (literally) and goes off with Dru
to the Bronze. It is there that he realises that he isn't the
same anymore. Dru kills the two lovers and you can see Spike decide
there that this is not what he wants to do not what he wants to
be. But he feeds anyway. Why? Well Dru would be pretty upset and
disappointed if he didn't. So then he goes back and ties up Dru
and Buffy. And now he presents the choice to Buffy to throw him
a crumb or to die. He's trying to make her make the choice as
to whether he can be redeemed or not. He isn't sure that he can
so if the slayer says he can he can. But she doesn't say he can
and he still doesn't kill her or let her be killed by Dru. He
has hope but not much. But he knows he doesn't want the life he
did before. Dru gave him that option he didn't take it. So now
as Dru said "Poor Spike. So lost even I can't help you now."
He wants to be redeemed but no one knows if he can be not even
him.
"
"Well I actually
saw "Crush" for the first time Saturday night. The show
comes on later in the week in my part of the country. I had read
the wild feed post as well as the infamous DF interview and was
bracing myself to be disappointed yet I must say that I still
enjoyed the episode. It's amazing how many people can watch the
same show and get something so totally different from it.
I didn't see the old Spike at all. Instead I saw a complex and
confused character who pulled at the heartstrings. He is a creature
torn between two worlds and the fact is that he doesn't really
fit into either one. I was left thinking that Spike with his internal
demon doesn't really understand humans as much as I thought he
did. Granted the emotions that he is feeling towards a human Buffy
further complicates things for him. As much as he doesn't really
have a grasp of what he's feeling and how to deal with it I think
Buffy is even more clueless about the nature of Spike and vampires
in general. This episode really drove that point home for me.
Spike has always been capable of love he was never really loved
in return. I agree that this is what he craves more than anything
and in his present state is incapable of finding it. It's almost
like he's doomed to remain as he was when vamped helpless with
a broken heart seemingly pathetic and the butt of jokes to humans.
I'm sure that this character is going somewhere though. (I know
"The Body" doesn't help his case.) I just think that
we will learn something new or there will be some startling twist
that non of us saw coming. JM is too popular and too talented
to waste. "
I agree. Would
Joss really let us down now? I don't know. I kinda like the new
Spike I always knew there was more to him I was just wondering
when Joss&co. were going to let us in on it. He could anyway
way now kinda like The Great Glass Elevator from the Raould Dahl
Books he could go in each and every direction but which one is
he going to choose?
"This
is going to sound warped and oogy but this has question been floating
around my head for the last couple of days.
Does Spike's chip stop him form harming living things period or
just "hands on" damage? Spike throws a few punches at
Buffy and comments that he's not in pain because he knew that
the punches couldn't touch her. What does that mean with regards
to traps? Would the chip cause him
pain if he dug a pit? Then he puts spikes at the bottom. Not hurting
anything there. Then covers it up. Ditto. Would the chip cause
him pain once something fell in?
These are the things that pop into my head late at night..."
"I don't think it would.
We have seen that if he intends to do harm to a living human he
will feel pain. The chip seems to be connected to direct conscious
actions. In the ep where Faith woke up he told Giles and Xander
that "Just because I can't do the damage myself doesn't stop
me from aiming a loose cannon your way." This leads me to
believe that he has tried it before. Maybe he doesn't do it because
if Buffy found out she would probably kill him and while he can
defend himself he can't fight her back."
If there is one thing that I would bet on (a generally
unwise tactic in the Jossverse ;) it's that Spike would not do
something like this. The fight needs to be a personal one he would
consider it a form of 'cheating' if he got someone else to do
the work for him.
A perfect example from *Crush* is that while he *threatened* to
turn Dru loose on the chained-up Buffy when she actually got loose
he freed Buffy at his first opportunity.
If for any reason Spike reverted to Big Bad status once more and
actually truly tried to kill Buffy it would be him and him alone
that would deliver the death blow.
Very
true. Remember having killed two Slayers is a source of tremendous
personal pride to Spike. That glory comes from having done it
with his own hands.
OnM
I believe you are right. Take the episode when Spike was going
to shoot Buffy with a shot gun. He could have had Harmony do it
but he wanted to do it himself.
"Harmony
is a real moral ambiguity to me. She's seen as the bug Giles tries
to push away in "Restless" like the sexy girl who thinks
more about clothes than blood the not so bright vamp who's there
but we know she won't stay long but ó
I believe that we learn a lot about vampires just to look at Harmony.
She's part of a new generation of Vampires. She doesn't hang out
with her sire. She doesn't have the kind of baggage Darla-Angel-Dru
or Spike have. She's new to the world. Looking at her action proves
us a lot about what a vampire can be.
As a human Harmony as we know was shallow. Friends clothes and
boys were all she thought about. As a vampires she kept pretty
much the same profile. She hired some minions to act as her chorus
She's still care for clothes (only now she doesn't have to pay
for them) and as for guys she won the price becoming the center
of attention by putting her hands on the "coolest guy a high
school girl could go out with".
Even though she acts like her relationship with Spike is only
based on sex I believe that somehow she really has feelings for
him. Probably not a deep and passionate love but there is something
more than a sexual gratification here. I think she understands
pretty well that Spike is using her as sex object but her speech
at the end of "Crush" lets us believe that inside she
was hoping for more. "I gave and gave.." Coming from
a vampire those words are unusual. She seemed to really want to
help him to be more happy. I was impressed at how insightful she
was to see that Spike had "trust" issues. She looked
like she wanted to reform him. Not making him be good but making
him less dark (get rid of the Dru influence)
So Harmorry too is able of feelings. Even though Spike had shoved
her away she came back calling herself "The actual girlfriend".
She was not ready to let go. The couple quarel was very "human"
like. Nothing reserved to the vampire world.
Harmony also proved that a vampire can change. Can improve oneself
and not only physically. She's become a better fighter... but
on a personal level she has changed as well becoming more confident
more able to deal with her emotions.
We probably won't see her much now but I think that she deserved
a little thread. :) "
Vampires
are products of their time. Politics world view sexuality etc
are all going to be informed by their life experiences ( and prejudices).
We have seen examples ofvampires who were captains of industry
prostitutes perennial students magicians...yada yada yada. As
humans run the gamult of mediocrity to genius so shall vamps.
Only vamps get a lot longer to figure out their mistakes.
I don't see that Harmony loves Spike. What I see
is her wanting to be with the coolest guy in school (and there
are very few vampires as cool as Spike still around). She is very
much stuck in her superficial world and with her power as a vampire
I don't see her ever coming out of it. She didn't have the depth
of character or pain that Darla Liam William and Drucilla had
before they were vamped. She was superficial and everything she
does and feels is superficial.
I don't see that Harmony loves
Spike.
I don't say she loves him but merely that there is something more
than just the sex in their relationship. What is fascinating about
Harmony is that she is shallow she is the comic relief and yet
she showed us this week that she was way more than just that.
The reason why I wanted to bring the subject is because I didn't
find Harmony in the ATPoBtVS section about moral ambiguities and
even though she is not a major character I think we can still
learn a lot from her actions. Just thought we could discuss that!
:)
I'll give you that. There is
a certain amount of moral ambiguity to her character. And yes
I agree that there is more than sex. She cares for him as much
as I think she can care for anyone.
"Oh you caught me....
I think Harmony belongs in the moral ambiguity section too but
I put her in the "big bads" section mainly 'cause I'm
still rootin' for her for some reason. I never cared for human
Harmony. It's funny.
She's clearly not a BIG bad... yet. In my section on her (http://home.4w.com/pages/btvs/bigbads.html#harm)
I even use a fan quote that says "she's not evil". Not
evil in the destroy-the-world sense or the gratuitious violence
sense that is.
I'll make a link to that section on the M.A. page."
I'm struck by the comments that Harmony almost
seems more human as a vamp than she was as a human because I feel
the same way especially after seeing her in *Crush*.
It is interesting that during the whole scene with Buffy Dru and
Spike Spike reveals his 'evil' side the most with Harm in that
even by stating he would kill Dru for Buffy in vamp logic that
was actually sort of a compliment to Dru.
On the other hand with Harmony he basically treats her as if she
had no significance to him at all-- this for a woman who was even
willing to pretend to be Buffy to make him happy sexually. (She
should know better of course but there you go...)
I found myself actually kind of happy that she fought him back
as well as she did.
A possible related item for discussion or of course (as usual)
I am reading too much into this: Did anyone take note of the fact
that Spike chained Buffy tied Dru with rope and did nothing at
all to prevent Harmony from interfering with his plans? What does
this say in terms of how he regards the power each of them has
over him?
Well he wanted Buffy
to hear him out. If he didn't chain her she'd have escaped as
easily as Dru did and left.
And/or he just had the one set of chains. ;)
LOL! Spike? Have only one set of chains?? Nahhhh!!
;);)
Did anyone take note of
the fact that Spike chained Buffy tied Dru with rope and did nothing
at all to prevent Harmony from interfering with his plans? What
does this say in terms of how he regards the power each of them
has over him?
I love this OnM!!!!! This is subtext and maybe he didn't notice
it himself but it says a lot about the way he sees those woman.
That even goes with my earliest statement that he sees women three
ways (the virgin the mother and the whore).
Masquerade I didn't want to catch you here!!! I just merely thought
about Harmony and before posting I wanted to see if there was
anything (I didn't want to reiterate what you would have already
said!)
I really do think that if Buffy takes the time to analyse what
she saw in the crypt she really will have no choice but change
her opinions on vampires. Spike was living the man's nighmare...
caught between the ex the girlfirend and the object of desire.
Nothing demonic in that! Really human indeed! :)
As for Harmony... she's been treated so much as a comic relieve
that there has to be something else. Something we can learn out
of her. As Rufus stated she's more of a human now and which vampire
will want to work to improve himself?
"I agree that Harmony cared
for Spike. (As much as that shallow girl could care.) She observed
a lot about him. Since we haven't seen her recently I thought
that she'd been long gone. Maybe now she is.
I keep thinking about how she begged Spike not to try to kill
Buffy at the end of 'Fool for Love.' He's storming around muttering
imprecations loading the shotgun and she yells
"You are so sensitive!... She's the Slayer she will so kick
your ass!" Supportive but concerned. "
Hey I just noticed
that Dawn is taller than Buffy. No real significants in this statement
its just funny watching Buffy lecture her little sister who is
towering over her. If she sticks around beyond this season I wonder
how much more taller she will be than Buffy
Last week Masquerade asked how it was possible
for the apparently large numbers of demons in the
Angelverse to remain effectively hidden from view in Los Angeles.
I mean sheís right there appear to be
demons all over the place but how come so few of them get noticed?
Willful blindness? Magical spells? A
good PR department?
Whatever the reason the idea of an enemy being all around us and
yet seemingly out of sight is a tried and
true theme for a lot of science fiction stories over the years.
I could pick from quite a few movies that have
this idea at their center but for this weekís classic movie
Iím going to select one of the lesser known ones.
While you may not have seen or heard of the flick Iím sure
youíll recognize the name of the director the
one and only John Carpenter.
There are a couple of noteworthy items that distinguish this from
the run-of-the-mill B-movie and yes this
is a ëB-movieí. John Carpenter would probably not
consider his films to be in the class of ëhigh artí
but
they also usually serve up more than could be reasonably expected
from something primarily intended as a
a couple of hours of purely escapist entertainment. (Sound like
anyone we know hummm?)
In the opening sceen of this film for example the lead character
appears in the midst of a railroad yard.
The camera shows him initially as a small figure in a large space.
He walks towards us his visage slowly
growing larger. He is carrying a huge backpack and is obviously
dressed for hard traveling. In the next
shot he is framed on the right by a huge set of railroad cars
all great darkness and shadow to his left is a
road leading into a city somewhat overcast but still very light
by comparison to the shadow of the railroad
cars. He walks down the middle then the camera pans upward. There
are skyscrapers huge office
buildings obviously this city is a major center of commerce. The
next shot shows him looking around
taking it all in-- the grandeur the indifference. He walks on...
You donít know it yet but in one short minute Carpenter
has foreshadowed most of the movies main
theme with just a few clever shots of metaphorical photography.
A B-movie? Yes it is. Art? Yes it is.
This weekís Classic Movie is *They Live* a title which
immediately makes one think of zombies or the
undead but actually it is we the people who are asleep in Carpenterís
vision. This movie wears its
political heart right on its sleeve but we tend to mostly ignore
that aspect since after all itís an ëactioní
movie with none other than (ex?) wrestler ëRowdyí
Roddy Piper in the lead role. Yes you heard me!
Amazingly (or not) he is actually pretty good and wrestling fans
will be happy to know he gets a nice long
fight scene to show off his talents a bit more than halfway into
the flick. (Iím *not* a wrestling fan but Iíll
cut ëem some slack since obviously many people wouldnít
go to see the movie otherwise and then they
wouldnít get caught up in all the ëartyí stuff!
;)
A caution here to all those who rent the DVD the film was shot
in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio (*very*
widescreen) so if you have a TV set smaller than say 35î
consider either going over to the home of a
friend who owns a really bigscreen set or else rent the VHS version
instead. If you do watch the
widescreen version you will get to note another interesting photographic
trick employed extensively
throughout-- the use of an extremely wide-angle lens for many
shots particularly outdoor scenes. The lens
is so short that the edges of the frame actually show curvature
of what would normally be straight lines.
The resulting visual effect is very disconcerting if you take
your eyes off of screen center-- and very
illustrative of what the main plot is all about-- again without
saying a word.
One last caution-- this is an ëactioní movie and deserves
its ëRí rating although most of the first half is
used to ëset the stageí (hummm sound familiar?) and
so has relatively little ëactioní. Those who crave
the
genresí requisite gunfights and fireworks will get your
fix just be patient. (I personally find these a little
tedious but again I understand the nature of the medium here...).
There are several final twists one of
which you may see coming two others you probably wonít
and the closing shot is both humorous and
outrageous at the same time.
Classic Carpenter-- and my Classic Movie of the Week.
E Pluribus Cinema Unum
"I have seen the movie "They Live"
a few times. One scen I like is when Roddy is trying to get this
African American Gentleman to put on the (you know whats) so that
he can see what is going on. The guy refuses almost like he knows
that something is wrong but he doesn't want to believe. "
"As promised I'm reposting
the story on how what Rufus refers to as 'the Re: Technique' came
about. The 'El-Reo-X' or 'El-Re-o-x' as I have referred to it
is just this silly pun on a band that one of Jackson Browne's
bandmates had "El-Rayo-X". (I think it was David Lindley
or Warren Zevon.)
This stuff is all in fun please take it as such since it has absolutely
nothing to do with BtVS or Angel per se. I'll start where it all
started:
Tall skinny posts are occurring. This is bad. Only 800X600 here
ya know... ;)
Wednesday 31-Jan-01 00:51:56
Also keep in mind possible use of Patent Pending OnM El-Re:o-X
technique. That is after 4 or 5 Re:'s
you can use Re:x5: followed by Re:x6:
(Use of this technique might completely change the look of BC&S Spoiler
board! ;)
I can explain this technique in detail if any of you are foolish
enough to ask me. You have been warned!
;)
OnM
Re: Tall skinny posts are occurring. This is bad. Only 800X600
here ya know... ;)
Wednesday 31-Jan-01 00:56:08
Okay O Wonder Brain...tell me how I can change the look of the
posts on the C&S as I happen to be
one of the offenders.
Rufus
Whew! I feel horizontal again... El-Re:o-x explained...
Wednesday 31-Jan-01 01:40:49
It's getting late here Rufus!
But I'll give it a go. It isn't really that tricky. And it's been
my observation (re: your being a guilty party)
that it takes at least two to tango and there must be like 50
of ya'all over there!! ;)
Like I said before after 3 or 4 or 5 re:'s just use the format
Re:x5. When someone responds to that
post they label it Re:x6. The next respondant labels it Re:x7
and so on. So instead of
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re you'd
have--
Re:x20.
Of course you need co-operation from other posters to do this
and they may just think you're insane
but you can always blame me and just say it's that weirdo long
post guy from ATPoBtVS. ;)
One revision I had to make in the otherwise elegant simplicity
of the basic El-Re:o-X plan was what to
do if someone is reading down an existing thread say currently
up to Re:x32 and sees a post at say
Re:x8 that s/he wants to comment on. How would you denote that
this is a branch?
I would suggest following standard program version notation and
make the branch response like so--
Re:x8.1 Followup on that branch would be Re:x8.2. You could also
use letters for people who hate
decimal stuff. Re:x8b Re:x8c etc etc.
Now the really neat thing would be for some programmer much smarter
than little 'ol me (my coding
ability is ludicrously out of date alas...) to write this in the
board software and then it would be done
automatically.
OK that's it. Remember you asked!! ;) ;)
OnM
As of today - 02/18/01
*** Some additional thoughts: One thing I have noticed as my evil
spell continues to wend it way
through the woods or into the woods or... oops sorry. ;)
While it it true that you basically just count the number of Re:ís
and replace that with Re x 5 or
Re x 8 or whatever some posters will not respond to your post
with the next increment. So you
might see ëRe: re x 8í instead of ëRe x 9í.
First remember *never* to hassle anyone about this! You can actually
pretty much write anything
you want in the post response header. All of this is completely
voluntary and even if you do
everything perfectly it *does not* ultimately prevent tall skinny
posts from appearing on the far
right of your screen it just holds them off a lot longer thus
maintaining readability to a greater
extent.
Second if you respond to a ëRe:re x 8í remember that
ëRe x 8í = Re:re:re:re:re:re:re:re or a total
of 8 ëre:ís.
So *donít* count the Re: in ëRe x 8í as *another*
re:-- itís already *included* in the 8!
At the risk of getting overly mathematical you could look at it
like Re+(Re x 8) or 1 + 8 = 9
where re =1.
If you include the re: inside the (Re x 8) then you end up incrementing
by 2 not 1.
Thus what should be Re x 8 Re x 9 Re x10 becomes Re x 8 Re x 10
Re x 12.
Make sense? If not donít fret-- I donít. Just remember
this is the danger of thinking too much
which we encourage on this board!
One last item-- I have adopted the visual format Rufus has used
most of the time which is Re +
space + x + the number or ëRe x 8í. There is no right
or wrong here as long as the result has
clarity.
Also acceptable for example would be formats such as ëRe
x8í ëRe:x8í ëRe/x8í ëRe: x8í
etc. etc. I happen to like the spaces because it is easy to type
and if you use the branching
format it still reads easily-- ëRe x8.1í ëRe
x12.4í etc.
So anybody working on software yet? ;) ;)
(By the way my evil clone made me do this...)
G'nite all."
"I'm not
sure I can come up with alot to say on this topic (and I'm not
usually one at a loss for words:) - the subject line pretty much
sums up my question.
Was I the only one who flashed back to the first Slayer when Buffy
said "No feelings" to Spike in the warehouse? It really
gave me a chill when I heard that. It was as if she were trying
to physically stop feelings (not just supposedly repressed feelings
for Spike but other kinds of emotions as well) from surfacing...
"
" That had never
occured to me but it makes perfect sense. After Buffy's encounter
with the first slayer she had a sort of "fake" relationship
with Riley then they broke up. It suprised me how Buffy didn't
even pause to consider Spike seeing him more of a problem than
a being.
I have a feeling that in this season Buffy may learn more how
to control her powers including this side effect but at this point
they may be getting the human half of her. "
I have been following the debate between Max and
Rufus and I must admit I've been agreeing with whoever I read
last. But for me it is The Host's comment that really puts things
in perspective for me. What good is it to fight a war if you lose
the very thing you are fighting for? In this case it is Angel's
soul. He is the prize I believe that Holland told him as much.
Angel's status may be what tips the balance on the day of the
Apocalypse according to the prophecies. So he may indeed need
to fight a total war but he may not be fighting the right war
if his objectives are merely destructive instead of constructive
(or defensive as the case may be).
Still one definately positive thing has resulted from Angel going
AWOL from the TPTB - his team has more confidence and cohesiveness
than they ever did before when they were just his back-up team.
When they do get back together again they will be far more powerful
together than they ever were before. Of course I am assuming they
do get back together again it would be too hard to maintain this
dual focus for long in a single series.
"He
may find them a lot less willing to simply follow orders. Not
that they didn't question him in the past but now they're not
"Angel minions" anymore."
"
I have the uneasy feeling I'm wading into a quagmire but this
whole discussion confuses me.
For one thing all this argument about collateral damage seems
to skim over the crucial word: acceptable. The bad guys go "Oh
collateral damage. Fine as long as we get what we want."
The good guys go "There's going to be collateral damage.
Is it acceptable collateral damage?" It's a fine line often
hard to distinguish even harder to abide by. But that is the difference
between good and evil. Our heroes on AtS -- and BtVS for that
matter -- have to make a determination about acceptable collateral
damage all the time. And I'd like to say they always make the
best choice but they don't. Just this week on the TTDL Angel's
Ex-crew decided to postpone helping the girl with the third eye
in favor of aiding Gunn deeming it acceptable collateral damage.
Sure it was played for laughs "That eye's not going anywhere."
But they had no way of knowing what the true consequences might
be. IMO they made a bad choice because they abandoned someone
in need and only made the situation with the zombie cops worse.
Angel clearly is deciding on a level of acceptable collateral
damage when after Kate tells him the crime statistics that will
be returned to the neighborhood now that the zombies are off the
streets he replies "I can live with that." Did he make
the right choice? Are evil zombie cops worse then the predatory
humans that will now have free reign there?
Angel is a warrior. He is not going to defeat his enemies with
love and roses. That's not what his story is about. But as far
as Angel using evil to fight evil I don't see it. He's just chosen
the wrong battle. The darkness has to do with him losing focus
on his real goal which is to stop evil. Angel is to be a major
player in the coming Apocolypse and if he makes the wrong decisions
he will end up at least abetting the side of evil if not joining
it. We know it because we heard Holland tell Leilah and Lindsy.
But Angel doesn't know it. He just knows they've been screwing
with him. He's gotten lost in a quest for vengence on W & H and
especially Leilah and Lindsy. This misguided pursuit has put him
in jeopordy of achieving the goal that the Senior partners want.
And concerning the wine tasting incident Angel knew he was putting
his salvation at risk. He just decided it was acceptable collateral
damage."
Good Point.
I thought Cordy was a little insensitive to Angel though. Here
is Angel sacrificing his chance at redeption protecting his friends
by disassociating them from the evil he must do and all she can
think of is herself. Why haven't you visited? Wahh!
Angel came through for them not expecting anything in return.
Knowing for now he must remain apart for they wouldn't understand
the path he must travel. They were the only thing standing between
him and true darkness. But he must go dark to win. There is no
other way. But at the same time he wants to protect his friends'
souls. So yes he cares for them more than Cordy could ever know.
If it wasn't for him the zombe police would have gotten them.
Yet all Cordy could think of is herself.
I do want to see Angel get back on the warpath. What ruthless
scheme can he come up with to torment Lindsey and Lila?
I hope it has something to do with Roses. Either that or puppy
dogs. Perhaps Lindsey owns pet fish.
"Angel
should find some way to make Lila and Lindsay go after each other.
Build upon the mistrust that already exists and let it flower.
Set them up to self-destruct. If he is really clever find some
way to make it in their interest to take Wolfram and Hart with
them.
"Therefore those skilled in moving the enemy use formation
that which the enemy must respond.
They offer bait that which the enemy must take
manipulating the enemy to move while they wait in ambush.
Those skilled in warfare seek victory through force."
-Art of War
"
"I thought Cordy
was a little insensitive to Angel though. Here is Angel sacrificing
his chance at redeption protecting his friends by disassociating
them from the evil he must do and all she can think of is herself.
Why haven't you visited? Wahh!
Remember the LA Scoobies haven't seen the last 3 episodes of Angel.
The last they've seen of Angel he'd just locked Dru and Darla
in with their little smorgasbord. (A month ago.) Then when they
had the audacity to question his actions he fired them. NO EXPLANATION!!
At the time I thought he was embracing evil. I now understand
that he is protecting them from himself and the repercussions
of his actions. But he's said nothing to them not even when Wesley
came to tell him they were keeping the agency. Complete silence
remember.
Don't forget that Cordelia has seen Angel go evil twice Wesley
has seen it once. Cordy was on the first wave of the body clean-up
crew in Sunnydale. She more than anyone else KNOWS what the demon
inside Angel is capable of. While it is obvious to us as well
as the LA gang that Angelus is not back I think that he has retreated
so far into darkness that Cordy could
not see the Angel she knows and loves. And her past experiences
tell her this is bad.
Also Anne only tells them that Angel tried to help her but he
wanted to mess with some law firm more. (The gang gets really
hopeful and then are disappointed at her story.) True but she
didn't tell them everything. And yes Angel helped save them in
"The Thin Dead Line " but he didn't say a word about
it. They don't know he's the reason that the zombies disintegrated.
And I think they have a little justifiable anger at Angel. He's
the one who got drafted by the PTBs and they're stuck doing his
job. Cordelia still gets the "mind splitting migraines with
pictures" (and smells) that were supposed to be messages
for him. The PTBs haven't stopped that. The three of them know
that the people in the visions will die if they do nothing so
being good guys they must risk their mortal lives with no superpowers
to help them fight.
Plus he was their friend. And friends don't drop you cold."
"Then when they had the
audacity to question his actions he fired them. NO EXPLANATION!!
He was only answering what Wesley said to him.
"We are the only think holding you back from true darkness."
Sorry Wes but true darkness is where Angel must go. And you can't
follow.
Good point about Cordy though. She has known Angel as both friend
and foe. Yes Wesley got to see "Angelus" one night but
really didn't have the opportunity to get to know first hand what
he was capable of. Cordy remembers it from Sunnydale. Wesley of
course knows the whole "Angelus" story but "knowing"
is different from "living" it like Cordy did.
But I thought she would use the rare opportunity of seeing Angel
to at least attempt to bring him back into the fold instead of
driving him away."
"
"We are the only think holding you back from true darkness."
"We are the only thing holding you back from true darkness."
Sorry its late.
Angel must remain apart from his friends. For now. Angel is sacrificing
much to win this war.
"
"***"We
are the only thing holding you back from true darkness."***
***Sorry Wes but true darkness is where Angel must go. And you
can't follow.***
True darkness -is- Angelus. No one wants to go there again (not
even Angel) and if by some chance he did then following ceases
to become an option and becomes a necessity so he can be staked
before he goes on another kill/torture rampage like the one on
Buffy.
"
"Ryuei
I'm glad you brought that up. The Host said to Angle "You
just keep gettin darker and darker don't you? But funny thing
your aura beige." (Or something pretty close to that.) Here's
this character that reads people's inner being directs them in
the path they need to go. And he says Angel's aura is beige! What's
up with that? "
"Angel
needs to employ "Angelus tactics" for a good cause.
Good can't defeat evil by employing good tactics. Only though
matching evil with evil can good defeat it. By mirroring then
increasing. Only a focusing of overwhelming force wins. That takes
a degree of ruthlessness.
Every leader needs a degree of ruthlessness (balanced by a sense
of justice) or they become indecisive (See the Star Trek episode
where the transporter split Kirk into two people. One 'good' one
'bad'. The 'good' one couldn't make a decision to save his life
(or actually the lives of others).
World War II is a classic case. They bombed cities and killed
civilians we bombed cities and killed civilians. We were just
as ruthless as the Germans so the difference wasn't there. But
there was a difference. A significant difference. And that is
what we were fighting for.
In La Femme Nikita Section One is as ruthless if not more ruthless
then Red Cell and all the enemies they fight. But the critical
difference that makes them better that makes them the good guys
is that they are fighting to prevent chaos. To prevent the evil
out there from totally getting out of control.
You don't go out of the way to harm "collateral" for
that doesn't serve your aims. If you are like Angel and Section
One you try to minimize collateral to the greatest extent possible.
But you can't let concern for collateral prevent you from doing
what you need to do either. If somehow collateral futhers your
aims or is unavoidable then it is just an unfortunate reality
of war.
To win Angel must be more ruthless than Wolfram and Hart. But
also he must act decisively. For the longer Wolfram and Hart exists
the more innocents will suffer from this war. On all sides."
"And so it begins again....(sigh)
It is interesting you mention Star Trek. In this weeks' Voyager
Capt Janeway is faced with very much a "do we go to total
war to survive" or "do we maintain our dignity and find
a solution to survival that does not force us to become animals"
scenario.
Her answer (and ultimately the salvation of Voyager and others)
is a refusal to lower herself or Voyager to the level of vigilantes
and murderers. She wins and does it without a trip over to the
dark side.
Collateral damage is just another way of saying:
"MY goals are more important than anyone else's."
"MY wants and MY needs are more essential than anyone else's."
"MY goals are so perfect that I am allowed any actions to
further them."
We have been over and over this. One more time into the fray.
Angelus -cannot- win. Using tactics he would have used as Angelus
cannot help him defeat W&H. You cannot use evil to defeat
evil. (not on a cosmic scale and not in the context of a war against
evil) Total war is exactly what the Sr Partners want him to do.
It is the best chance they have of corrupting him.
"
"Ok
You were the one who brought up Voyager.
I thought Janeway's actions in that matter went way beyond ridiculous.
She seemed practically insane in her insistance to 'stick to principle'
beyond every other consideration.
To share supplies with others without even the assurance that
they would reciprocate or join her alliance.
Even her senior advisors thought she was going off the deep end
there. And they were right. To put such a rigid adherence to this
ideal concept of hers it was more about her ego than it was anything
else.
Look I can understand her not wanting to attack ships just to
raid supplies. And I even go along with this alliance thing. After
all all the ships were in a common predicament. All had the common
objective of escaping the void. And Voyager had a viable plan
to accomplish that. She might have thought it principled to form
the alliance but she was just fortunate enough that it was the
practical thing for them to do as well. To pull their resources.
Had their been no chance of excape then her alliance wouldn't
have made sense. It really would have been every ship for themselves
and all Janeway's "principles" would have done would
have been to get her ship destroyed.
I think where she really blew it was when they had the technology
to escape but she would not utilize it to escape. Look if she
could have by losing that technology save the crew of that ship
by all means do so. But the crew was dead. She couldn't go back
she had to think foward. Again her ego getting in way of what
was best for the rest of the crew.
For all this nobility and principle it really concerned me that
after it was all over there was no attempt by Voyager to develop
a solution to help the others left in the void or to someone develop
warings (perhaps place a beacon) to prevent other ships from going
into the void. You would have thought that there would have been
a way of doing that without puting her ship and crew in danger
again. But I guess principle only goes so far.
Give me Kirk Spock and Abe Lincoln fighting evil on some planet
with only rocks sticks and their wits anyday over Janeway's "principles"
Again sorry you asked. I recognize that this is the Buffy and
Angel board."
"One
thing further.
They did spy on other members of the alliance.
How "principled" was that?
Actually it was that "unprincipled" act that saved them
in the end. Without the knowledge that the one ship was going
to break away and form their own alliance Janeway and all her
"principles" would have been so much space dust."
I am not sure why you apologized
you didn't offend me. For Voyager there was only one choice. They
were members of Star Fleet and as such they swore oaths to -not-
do all the things you and I have mentioned. Her officers may have
been arguing with her but no one on the ship actually had a choice
in the matter even Janeway.
Angel on the other hand has a choice. W&H are counting on that.
If they can get him to chose evil actions then they have won.
it makes any decision he makes that much harder.
"The only reason I appoligized was that I
didn't want others to think I am turning it into a Voyager board.
As for Voyager forming that alliance wasn't only the principled
thing to do - it was the practical thing to do.
Now for Angel and Wolfram and Hart this is different. Unlike the
ships in the void who shared a common objective (escaping the
void) Wolfram and Hart and Angel have OPPOSING objectives. There
can be no alliance between them. No compromise. In the end there
can only be one of these two forces remaining. And I am rooting
for Angel.
In such a case Total War is the only option. That and or a defeat
so horrible to be unthinkable. So you see Angel really doesn't
have a choice either. He must be ruthless for if he isn't they
win he loses. And with him humanity.
Again I think back to the "Abe Lincoln" episode on the
original star trek. Kirk had no choice but to fight either. After
all his crew's lives were at stake."
Aghhhh!
Max! Oh great give away our secret plan to convert this into a
Voyager board. Sigh...
As for the total war...I think it will have to be me agreeing
to disagree. I truly feel the moment Angel gives into evil or
as Rufus and others have said the moment he kills humans as a
means to an end he will have lost. You cannot fight evil with
more evil. But I have a suspicion you and I will not come to a
meeting of the minds on this. Besides I am annoyed that you spilled
our grand plan to the masses. ;)
"Rendyl
are you a fan of Babylon 5?
Sheridan practiced "Total War".
The way he used the telepaths against Clark.
"Lyta: Are you all right?
Franklin: No. No I'm definitely not all right. When Sheridan came
back from Z'ha'dum everyone talked about how different he was.
Harder more determined. I really didn't see it. Aside from some
physiological differences it was Sheridan same as ever. But the
Sheridan that I know never would have told me what this one just
did. He's right.... He's right it's the only way. I just wish
like hell that he was wrong. (turns to Lyta)."
And during the shadow war didn't he sacrifice whole planets to
gain stragetic advantage? To lurk them into a trap.
To win Angel must come on as Death Incarnate against Wolfram & Hart.
Fear is the only language they understand."
To lure them into a trap.
To lure The Shadows.
He basically sacrificed the Narns.
It was necessary Yes but that is the point.
In war you must be ruthless.
"If
a war isn't worth winning then it isn't worth fighting. If a war
is worth fighting then you must do everything it takes to win
it for defeat would be too horrible to imagine.
Angel must be ruthless. Angel needs his dark half to give him
strength. Just like Kirk found out how much he needed his dark
half in the episode The
Enemy Within.
For can half a man live? Angel has been trying to run from his
dark side but instead he must learn how to embrace it and focus
it into a power for good."
Ben
I haven't read the other posts yet so maybe someone said this
already. But Cord Wes and Gunn did not know that Angel helped
them. I think that since Angel came to the hospital it shows he
cares for them. Cordy can't see that right now because of the
feelings of rejection. I would guess the others feel that way
too.
I feel for them all(esp
Wes) They have a tough road ahead but I believe Angel will suffer
the most loss. But hey what else is new.
"The
Girl was already dead before Spike fed upon her. Dru killed her
for Spike.
By the way that makes 8 people that Dru killed after Angel set
her on fire (that we know of).
Angel should have finished both Dru and Darla off when he had
a chance. I hold him personally responsible for those eight deaths.
And Buffy should have gone after those "loser vampires"
They might have been pathetic but they are still vampires which
means to continue they must kill humans. That is the only way
they can exist.
Those "loser vamps" will kill again. Buffy should have
at least made the attempt. That is as much as we can ask of her.
That she just let them go means that she holds some responsibility
for what they do after. For the deaths they will cause. If Buffy
did her best to try to slay them and they somehow escaped then
we can chalk it up to "can't save them all" but Buffy
didn't even try to go after them."
scroll
down a few pages there's a big discussion
I'm
not saying you're totally wrong but I have a problem with holding
someone else responsible for the murders that someone else commits
by not stopping or not being able to stop the murderer.
If that is true then is the U.S. responsible for all the people
people killed in Kosovo when we could have sent in ground troops
even earlier to save them from the Serbs?
Is the U.S. responsible for not getting into WWII earlier even
knowing what the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese were doing?
Are the police responsible for not arresting or even killing someone
they know is probably going to commit a crime before they commit
it?
Buffy and Angel may be guilty of negligence in relation to their
calling but I would hesitate before holding them personally responsible
for the crimes that others commit. This is a tricky issue though.
"I'm not saying you're totally
wrong but I have a problem with holding someone else responsible
for the murders that someone else commits by not stopping or not
being able to stop the murderer.
NOT BEING ABLE to stop is one thing. I don't hold Buffy at fault
for that. Buffy can't "save them all" can't be everywhere
at once can't spend all her time slaying.
But when she does happens upon Vampires (even loser vamps) and
doesn't give her best effort to slay them (or when she doesn't
slay because the vamp used to be a former boyfriend etc. etc)
then I do believe there is a certain degree of responsibility
for the people they kill after.
Angel as well for not slaying Dru and Darla at their weakest when
he had an opportunity holds some culpability for what they do
after.
I don't know if any of you are fans of SpiderMan. But when Peter
Parker first got his powers he wasn't interested in crime fighting.
He went to get an agent because he wanted to use his powers for
entertainment. While he was there a criminal ran by being chased
by police. All Peter had to do was stick is foot out to stop the
fleeting suspect. It didn't even require him to use super strength.
But he did't care. Why bother.
Later that criminal murders his uncle who had raised him. He had
an opportunity to have prevented that. His uncle wouldn't had
died if he would have just stuck out his foot."
"I think Buffy didn't kill the vamps because
they were afraid and left... to go after them would have mean
to "kill" them. Usually Buffy fights against vamps who
fight back... We are definitely going deeper and deeper into what
a slayer is and how much her duty is related to killing. As long
as they are bad creatures Buffy doesn't have a problem. But with
cowards or chipped vampires... she does.
It also proves that she has some ethic in her work to some extend!"
"We need to cut Buffy some
slack here. "Crush" was a series of startling and shocking
revelations to her. Most of this episode she was trying to catch
up with the out-of-control events swirling around her. I think
when she shut the door on Spike she went upstairs to her room
for a Big Think about all the events of the past two days."
ROFL. Great coinage Brian. Do
I have your permission to use the turn of phrase in the future?
:)
When Tara and Willow asked Buffy what her opinion of Quasimodo
and Esmeralda was she said she'd 'think about it tomorrow' in
true Scarlett O'Hara style. Buffy's been squirreling away so many
things to 'think about tomorrow' it is almost inevitable that
she'll go 'nuts':)
Aquitaine
please use it freely and thanks for the compliment.
"It also proves that she has some ethic in
her work to some extend!
That "ethic" as you call it will get innocent people
killed. What is so ethical about that?
These vampires might be cowards but cowards as they are they can
still kill. In fact they must kill humans to exist.
What to you tell the wife of the banker they kill? Oh I could
have slayed them but since they were cowards and ran when I came
I thought it much better to let them go.
Innocents will die as a result of Buffy's so called fighting ethics.
If she would have made an attempt and somehow they escaped then
that would be a different situation. But she didn't even give
it a half effort (and with losers like that a half effort would
have been all that was needed).
"
"Sorry. Forgot to
put my name to that last post.
But what to you tell the parents of a teen that those coward vamps
kill.
"Oh Mr and Mrs Jones I could have slayed those vampires before
they came into contact with your daughter I had the opportunity.
But they ran and were afraid so I didn't think it would be right
to slay them."
I still believe that a "let them go" mentality only
results in more happy meals for the vamps. She could have slayed
them easily but decided not to. That decision was wrong. And it
will get people killed. But as long as it is no one that Buffy
knows I guess it's OK.
And by the way she wasn't distracted by anything at that point.
She just didn't think they were worth the effort of slaying.
"
"I still believe
that a let them go" mentality only results in more happy
meals for the vamps. She could have slayed them easily but decided
not to. That decision was wrong. And it will get people killed.
But as long as it is no one that Buffy knows I guess it's OK.
And by the way she wasn't distracted by anything at that point.
She just didn't think they were worth the effort of slaying."
I do think that Buffy was distracted when she entered the "nest"
of the two vampires (btw did you see that they were making Jiffypop?).
She knew immediately that something was wrong -- she just wasn't
sure what. She has trusted Spike before (and Riley almost died
because of it) and have every reason to suspect an ambush or similar
treachery -- a dead slayer cannot stop any vampires.
Compare the actions of Buffy with the zombie cops of AtS -- they
brought the crime rates down dramatically. The decent hardworking
people of the neighborhood were a great deal safer before Angel
ended the spell (just listen to the statistics Kate read to him).
Yet none of us are suggesting that the cops were good or that
destroying them was an evil action. The rule of law is that the
good guys actually have to have proof that the bad guys are doing
something wrong before acting -- killing creatures because of
something they might do or are likely to do is not just. Having
said that I still believe that all vampires should be staked --
but Buffy should be allowed to use her judgment to determine the
risks involved to her personal safety and the risks of letting
them go.
Also keep in mind that no matter how many vampires she allows
to slip through her fingers the Buffyverse is a better place because
of her actions."
-- but
Buffy should be allowed to use her judgment to determine the risks
involved to her personal safety and the risks of letting them
go.
I understand and respect that. But come on these loser vamps posed
no threat to her. She could
that
was me ben
forgot to post the name (though it does say optional).
I understand and respect that. But come on these
loser vamps posed no threat to her. She could have staked them
without breaking a sweat.
Sounds to me that YOU would like to be in her place and enjoy
the kill.... but maybe I'm wrong! ;)
"I
understand and respect that. But come on these loser vamps posed
no threat to her. She could have staked them without breaking
a sweat.
I agree -- but at the same time Spike could have set up a trap
-- the losers could have been a decoy. Buffy knew something was
wrong -- to have charged after them into a potential ambush would
have risked her life as well as placing the Key in jeopardy (if
Buffy dies who will look after Dawn and Glory?)
Faith would have chased them down (and hoped for an ambush) but
Buffy is more circumspect. It would have been different if Buffy
had cought the vampires in the act of feeding and just walked
away -- but even then she has made some difficult choices -- choosing
her own life over meaningless self-sacrifice (leaving Ford to
die in the bomb shelter and leaving Forrest to his death in Adam's
cave).
"(Since the age of microwaves do anyone make "jiffy
pop" anymore? They must have been vamped back in the 70's.)"
If you live in an abandoned tenement without electricity jiffy
pop would be the way to go -- at least they weren't hanging around
outside theaters killing patrons for their popcorn.
"
She was certainly willing
to kill the vamp sluts even though they were even more loserlike
and the SG didn't even agree they should be killed (since they
were prostitutes and not killers). But she did that out of rage
at Riley --- even let the one Riley was visiting go but then killed
her from behind...killing in the back is usually not open to positive
interpretation. It's perceived as cowardly.
"Innocents will die as a result of Buffy's
so called fighting ethics. If she would have made an attempt and
somehow they escaped then that would be a different situation.
But she didn't even give it a half effort (and with losers like
that a half effort would have been all that was needed).
Ben I seem to have touch a sensitive point don't I? ;)
It's easy to look at the slayer's job from the exterior. But are
we the one who have to slay? We see we judge but we are not in
the action. It's easy to say that a vampire is bad and that you
have to kill them. But to be in Buffy's shoes is totally different.
She staked a vampire in the back in "Into the woods"
and this was already freaking. The simple act of destroying something
every day (be it the most horrific demon) is an act that can't
be done cooly as if nothing happened. She does kill... only she's
on the good side. This has to affect her. And don't forget that
she knew that Spike had feelings for her when she was in their
lair. She was confused. She's not a killing machine. She's a human
being with feelings and she cannot be expected to save the world
all the time perfectly.
This could well bring some disaster but I prefer that instead
of a killing Buffy who really doesn't question her actions."
I'll
admit that Buffy is my least fav. character (perhaps because I'm
always afraid I'm gonna see Dru at the end of Mr. Pointy) But
I don't like to judge her because I for one could not be a Slayer.
She's had to give up her whole life to this one cause and she
doesn't even know what it all means? Face it she's been jipped.
But one good thing I see in her is her moral ethics If she kills
every vamp see runs into what will differentiate her from The
First Slayer. She has a life hopes dreams and her biggest fear
is becoming a killer (that and dummies)I think we should enjoy
the show and not judge what Buffy should or shouldn't do if we
think we can do a better job we should send resumes to the WC.
I try to cut Buffy some slack
but this was a no-brainer.
Run the loser vamps down slay them then have it out with Spike.
I understand she can't spend all her time tracking down Vampires
especially now that she needs to protect her family but since
she did run into some she could have taken the few moments it
would have taken to dust them.
"If
that is true then is the U.S. responsible for all the people people
killed in Kosovo when we could have sent in ground troops even
earlier to save them from the Serbs?'
It's a civil war. There was (is) attrocities occuring on all sides
of that conflict but since this is the Buffy board not the Kosovo
War board that is all I want to go into that.
Regarding not getting into WWII earilier. War isn't something
to get into lightly. For getting involved in war involves great
cost.
I think that really isn't relevant here. It wasn't a case that
Buffy didn't want to kill the loser vamps" because she was
afraid it would get her or her friends and family into a larger
war. And I could understand her letting them go if their was a
stragetic purpose for her to do so. If it somehow served some
larger purpose then despite the fact that it will cost some innocent
lives that lost (still tragic) would be weighed against the larger
gain.
Buffy had no stragetic purpose to let them go. She just thought
they were too pathetic to go after. Pathetic yes but they are
such vampires who will still kill humans.
You are right it is more a case of of negligence of their calling
but still innocents die as a result of it.
In Angel's case he better have a very good reason to let Darla
and Dru go. It better be the key to bringing down Wolfram and
Hart because already it has come at a very great cost (eight or
more innocents).
I can't think of any reason for Buffy's actions (inactions). Just
lazy I guess. It would have only taken a few minutes to run them
down and slay them.
"
"
"In Angel's case he better have a very good reason to have
let Darla and Dru go. It better be the key to bringing down Wolfram
and Hart because already it has come at a very great cost (eight
or more innocents)."
I agree if there is going to be some purpose to be achieved by
this then (although not to minimize the cost) it was an necessary
evil.
Fortunes of War
But if it was just a case of oh I still have feelings for Darla
and Dru I just feel so guilty then Angel was clearly wrong. Already
eight people have died who wouldn't have had Angel slayed Dru
when he had the opportunity.
There better be a payoff from this because the cost is very very
high."
"I "agree"
if there is going to be some purpose to be achieved by this then
(although not to minimize the cost) it was an necessary evil.
I met to say I would "argue" that there needs to be
a purpose behind letting Dru go. Otherwise Angel's actions would
be truely evil.
If there was some tactical some stragetic purpose behind sparing
Dru then it would be undestandable. I don't minimize the eight
innocent deaths but in war this happens. Sometimes you must sacrific
innocents to defeat evil. You must be ruthless.
War is in every sense Hell. You do what it takes to win.
But if was no purpose then Angel is negligent in the deaths in
the deaths of those innocents.
And the whole "burning Dru and Darla" thing would be
an evil act as it serves no purpose in winning the war. It is
just an act of revenge."
"I'm
coming back to the original thread...
I just watched the scene again. It reminded me of a French movie
called "Les comperes" (there was an American version
made later on with Robin William and Billy Crystal called "Father's
Day" - though I am not sure it's that good!) In that movie
a 16 year old boy flees from home and joins a gang. In order to
be part of that gang he has to smash a car. I can swear that the
looks between Spike and Dru are the same as the chief of the gang
and the young boy. It says:"What are you ready to give up
to be one of us?"
"
"I've been wondering
about everyone' "false" memories of Dawn. What if they're
not? What if the monks made some type of time travel spell (kind
of like on Angel-don't know the name of the episode but the one
where he becomes human and is with Buffy but takes back the day
so only he remembers what happened) so that Dawn really was there
and everyone's memories are not fabricated. I know it's a bit
of a stretch considering the monks didn't really have a lot of
time cause Glory was knocking down the wall.
Or what if the spell kind of like the Jonathan Superstar spell
but only 100x stronger since everyone didn't become aware of it.
"
To
complete that type of spell would require a lot of power. Of course
Dawn may be the most powerful force in the Buffyverse. If the
spell did work this way then the folks in LA would hav ememories
of Dawn as well.
Ripped off from
the buffy shooting script http://www.mustreadtv.com/buffyscripts/
<<<<<<<<<<
ANGEL
You should have seen her face. It was priceless. I'll never forget
it.
SPIKE
So you didn't kill her then?
ANGEL
Of course not.
SPIKE
I know you haven't been in the game for a while mate but we do
still kill people. It's sort of our raison d'etre you know
ANGEL
Spike my boy you really don't get it. You tried to kill her and
you couldn't. Look at you. You're a wreck. She's stronger than
any Slayer you've faced. Force won't get it done. You gotta work
from the inside. To kill this girl... you
have to love her.
>>>>>>>>>
I thought of it for some reason.
Could Spike possibly be planning
that far ahead?? That he allowed/forced himself to fall in love
with the Slayer just so he could eventually kill her??
Pre-chip Spike was already fascinated/obsessed with the Slayer.
(Dru told Spike as much in the flashback with the chaos demon.)
So Spike came back to Sunnydale to act on those feelings got himself
chipped (oops!) and now is stuck with feelings of fascination/obsession/love
and can't kill the Slayer. And having the chip just makes it worse
because not only can he not hurt the object of his obsession he
can't even think about hurting her.
Yikes!! What inner turmoil for poor Spike!
"I'm glad you brought this up. This is really
fantastic foreshadowing. Hard to believe the writers were thinking
that far ahead especially considering that JM's wasn't contracted
as a regular at the time.
Spike's transformation pains seem too real for it to be an act.
In Crush he really seems to be agonizing at the end over these
changes that are happening to him against his will which has characterizes
as "wrong."
My personal opinion is that there will come a moment where Spike
is able to kill the slayer. That chip is not going to keep Spike
down. He will have a very real choice to make. Maybe he will return
to evil but maybe he will prove that he's become something different.
Wouldn't this make a great s5 cliffhanger? Buffy at Spike's mercy?"
Why dose the Hellmouth open when
the Master gets free of the Church as that is still bloking the
Mouth to hell like a cork in a bottle is it not? Also how did
he get stuck in the first place?
"I
didn't know where to put this comment so I put it here...
"Angel has also cut himself off from his friends and from
humanity. We've been told repeatedly that engagement with humans
is important to keep the demon at bay. With Angel now reverting
to "lone stalker" mode will he continue to slide into
darkness?" (Humanitas - in an earlier thread)
The thing that is fascinating in the journey both Spike and Angel
are taking is that they both mirror themselves in their actions
(even if it's for different reasons). Both stalking (Angel reminded
me of Spike in the last A:tS episode... just less scary) both
are now alone and shut from the human world both are trying to
overcome their vampire state (We still need more proof from Spike
as a change of clothes isn't enough to convince us - even me!
:).
Dawn said that Spike's chip was like Angel's soul... Could that
be true in some ways? The writers don't want to diminish Angel's
quest with what Spike is going through. But there is really a
similar pattern in their actions. They look like two faces of
a coin. The good and the bad... who's the ugly????? LOL"
Darla's definitely the ugly here
Her situation just gets worst and worst.
What
exactly kept the Master inside the Church ruins. I mean were did
that forcefield come from? And why did the Hellmouth unblock when
he excaped the church must have been blocking it still?
He tried to open it but got stuck 'like a cork
in a bottle.'. He had to get out to open it up.
"I wonder if perhaps the forcefield itself
was related to the "invitation" clause; maybe his messing
with the Hellmouth effectively uninvited him from everywhere else
in the world."
"I'm
absolutely confused by "Crush". I don't know to which
Saint I must turn to! I got many answers and many new questions...
One thing did disturb me very much and I couldn't even sleep (yeah...
no good when a tv show interfers with your life at that extend!)
That was the scene when Spike tells the horror bed-time story
to Dawn. There's something eerie in that scene and what disturbs
me even more is that it's my favorite scene.
Dawn and Spike are not human and can connect in a way together
that no one else will undertand from the exterior. I am under
the impression that the whole B/S is only running water under
ice... we haven't seen the surface yet. That story line was necessary
to make Spike care for something but it's only the point of the
iceberg. I think that the Dawn and Spike relationship is the real
thing (not romantically speaking of course). If Spike is ever
going to find any kind of inner peace or become good or whatever
(that's another discussion!) it will be through Dawn. A relationship
that is not based on love or sex or attraction. She's the only
one who is willing to see him. And she might just be the key to
his redemption! (pun intended!)
But that said. I'm still freaked out by that scene in the dark.
It's so hypnotizing...and yet she was perfectly safe there. He
wouldn't have done a thing. I'm looking forward to more Dawn and
Spike scenes... check them out... I'm sure they will tell us more
about Spike and Dawn than any other scene!"
Nina I've been thinking that too. They look each
other in the eye and say exactly what's on their minds and I think
there is a mutual appreciation in that. I also wonder if William
had a little sister :) There is an ease between the two of them
that isn't there when they interact with the other characters.
As for the ghost story that scene works also because kids at that
age love ghost stories the scarier the better and what's scarier
than a true ghost story? And I love his backpeadling when Buffy
got there :) I hope this relationship is pursued though it will
be more difficult now when Spike definitely off the guest list.
Lynn
I hope this relationship
is pursued though it will be more difficult now when Spike definitely
off the guest list.
If you mean that Spike can't enter the house I won't be surprised
if Dawn invites him in. Or even Joyce since they seemed to be
getting along rather well together when Buffy came home.
I really do have a problem with Joyce sending her
little girl to the wolf. Joyce says it over and over that she
has read many parental guides and books and what she did was really
dangerous. I don't think she will let Spike come in anymore but
she certainly underestimated him.
Even
if Dawn doesn't invite Spike in she'll certainly be sneaking out
to his crypt for more ghost stories. The plot possibilities are
endless!
I have to object to
the characterization that Dawn is not human. The monk explicitly
said that she is human. I suppose there is a chance that he was
wrong but since he was involved in her creation I think we need
to believe until shown otherwise that Dawn is human. Plus she
certainly shows human emotions.
"I
have to object to the characterization that Dawn is not human.
The monk explicitly said that she is human. I suppose there is
a chance that he
was wrong but since he was involved in her creation I think we
need to believe until shown otherwise that Dawn is human. Plus
she certainly shows human emotions.
Well I simply said that she wasn't human because she says it herself
to Spike. She seems to like the idea that because the both of
them are not humans it's why Spike is nice to her. The bed-night
story shows how much he doesn't treat her as a child. He doesn't
want to frightened her too much ("is it too much?" he
asks her) but for once she is has the right to listen to things
that are normally forbidden.
Her words "he has cool hair and cool leather coats"
(quoting from memory) is really a reflection of what many teenagers
thinks in many of the message boards that you find on Buffy. I'm
not sure she really has a crush tough. She's conscious that she
doesn't stand a chance. I think her feelings are mixed because
he is a father figure for her and for once it's a father figure
who accepts her as she is. Her mixed feelings might just develop
into a new emotion soon.
"
If I recall correctly
Spike said he used to b