February 2001

February 2001 posts

January 2001
More February 2001

"I've already let a thread on one post...but I feel compelled to leave another one.

"The Body" has been on my mind all day...it moved that much.

I've noticed that there has been some speculations about the last scene of "The Body" when Dawn is reaching out to Joyce. Whether her power will "trigger" and alter what happened.

My feeling is NO. I think Joss is too much of a realist to allow this to occur - hence the way Joyce did pass (with it not being through supernatural means ala Glory).

I think that when Dawn touches Joyce...nothing will have happened. I think it will be a representation that life - no matter how heart breaking - will go on. And sometimes there is not a "last minute" rescue/spell.

Joyce will still be dead - and there's nothing a Slayer a witch a Watcher or a Key can do.

Thoughts?....."

"Joyce will still be dead - and there's nothing a Slayer a witch a Watcher or a Key can do.

Thoughts?.....

Sebastian

I have to agree there isn't going to be any supernatural powers that can bring Joyce back. The whole theme seemed to be about being powerless. Examples: Xander trying to blame it on Glory then on the doctors Buffy when she said "I've never done this before" Anya in a frightened and confused voice asking why Joyce can't just get back into her body then proclaiming "It's stupid! It's mortal and it's stupid!" .."No one will explain to me why!"I felt just as much sympathy for her as I did for Buffy and Dawn.
All of the characters were powerless and the part at the end where Dawn is reaching out to touch Joyce it seems to be out of curiosity: "Is she cold?" then Buffy responds "It's not her she's gone" Dawn"Where did she go?"
This scene brings to mind the scene in the classroom where the teacher is talking about negative space..the object is there..right in front of you but if you block it out there is only the space around it making it less intimidating to draw..or in this case..less scary to deal with?
"

In regards to whether or not Joyce will be brought back to life I'd have to say know. Maybe we'll see her in a dream flashback or althernate dimension but I don't think she'll ever be alive in Buffy's world again.

Stepping out of the fiction of the show for a minute and into reality I think Kristine Sutherland wanted to leave the show.

Somewhere in the second Watchers Guide it says that Sutherland and her family have been living out of the country for the last year. Somewhere in Italy or something I can't remember the exact locale. Anyway the WG said that she had been flying back to the U.S. just to film the few episodes that she was in last season. I'm guessing she just got tired of making that commute also the WG said she wanted a break from acting to spend time with her family.

My guess is that Joyce's death happened partly becuase it makes for an interesting story and also because Joss knew the actress wouldn't mind being written out.

"I think Dawn's question was very important. The Buffyverse has not really touched on the afterlife very much. Now I know there have been ghosts on Angel and Buffy but the question of where they go after they find rest is still a mystery.
This really hits home doesn't it? We are taught in school and in popular culture to look at life through a naturalistic perspective. We are led to believe there is no afterlife because this life is all there is. Dawn's question is important not just in the context of a show but to all of us. "Where did she go?" This is definately something all of us have to grapple with as we try to make sense of the real world. VMS"

"No question about it "Where's she gone" is an important issue but it is an issue that can't be resolved in the realverse on BtVS. However JW and gang can ask the question in the Buffyverse and the question applys in the realverse too. It's good that the question is being asked."

"You are right. Asking the question that's the important thing. There may be no answer to the question or multiple answers may exist. But in the end obtaining an answer is a moot point. It's how people react to the question that is the important clue and their reaction very much depends on circumstances and individual personalities.

In another thread I wrote that I thought Dawn was perhaps stronger than we have been led to believe because Dawn tends towards direct response and retaliation and Buffy towards passive-aggressive and contrary reactions to being twarted (her season 1&2 reactions to Angel/ turning to Parker).

Unlike Buffy Dawn reacts immediately to the information she receives. For example when she finds out about being the key she cuts herself runs away confides in someone she feels safe with and asks all the tough questions "Am I real?" etc. In short she reacts spontaneously. When she finds out about Joyce she has according to Buffy "a complete meltdown" then she insists on seeing the body and again asks a pertinent question: "Where'd she go?".

For her part at least in The Body Buffy did what convention required. She phoned 911 greeted the paramedics put paper towels on her vomit followed the paramedics instructions wished them 'luck' when they left insisted that she needed to go tell Dawn sat patiently waiting for the doctor accepted the sympathy of her friends protected her sister. In short she acted like a typical adult. But Buffy is neither typical nor entirely an adult yet and after she finishes dealing with the logistics of her mother's death she'll have to ask the kind of questions Dawn has asked. Of course she won't be formulating them in the same way as Dawn does. The fact that Buffy keeps so much hidden from herself makes me feel that in the long run Buffy is far more at risk than Dawn. JMO.

"

Aquitaine I don't know about the relative dangers for Buffy & Dawn but you are right that Buffy keeps so much more hidden from herself than Dawn. But Dawn is for obvious reasons more childish than Buffy both by apparent age and corporeal age. As the key she apparently had no noticable age (though agelessly old) and no awareness. Dawn's direct approach to things may be largely due to her childishness rather than her maturity.

"The fact that Buffy keeps so much hidden from herself makes me feel that in the long run Buffy is far more at risk than Dawn. JMO.

Finally people are discusing the topic I have been thinking about.

I guess I think (at least in the short-term and that might be the difference) Dawn is far more at risk. Perhaps Dawn will surprise me but it has been mentioned in the past by Buffy that Dawn has a hard time time dealing. For example her parent's divorce (though Dawn of course was much much younger at the time).

And Dawn has been through now TWO earth shattering experiences in so many weeks where her whole sense of reality and place in the universe has been turned upside down. Don't want to minimize Buffy's pain here as I am sure it is terrible enormous gut-wrenching but to be told you don't exist talk about identity crisis here.

Buffy does keep so much hidden from herself though whereas Dawn is very very inner-spective. Dawn kept diaries since she was seven. Volumes. Buffy rarely takes time out for innerspection (I think of what she said at the end of "graduation").

Is being too interspective a good thing? I will have to think about that one.

I personally see Dawn becoming very suicidal feeling that it would better to be an non sentient energy key thing than a living and feeling human. And for those out there who say she "isn't really human" that isn't true. The monk said they made the key human not that they made the key something that seems human but isn't.

Dawn's human all right with all the pain and anguish that comes from being a 14 year old girl who just lost her mom. Dawn might start thinking that being human - that's the problem and then go to her Glory in an attempt to end it all.

But again then you might be correct. Dawn might be much stronger than Buffy and everyone else gives her credit for. But how can anyone remain strong after all Dawn has had to deal with? But again I appreciate your ideas as whose to say. That is what makes this so interesting to discuss. I am a little ambivalent about all this and really appreciate reading the different views on this subject."

It *is* interesting discussing this topic or should I say speculating about this topic.

What you say about Dawn's ability to analyse the world around her in her diaries is true. She processes and integrates information in a way that we have not been shown before on BtVS. I do think that Dawn will have a crisis. But I think the main story will revolve around Buffy.

***

You know I think part of me just doesn't want to see a fourteen-yr-old girl in suicide mode. I know this season is supposed to be darker but that would really tip the scale into the abyss. Besides I *want* to see Buffy deal with her baggage. Also at times a vague feeling nags at the fringes of my mind and I can't help but think: what if Dawn isn't really there and they all wake up one morning and she's gone?

"I for one would feel a little cheated if Dawn one day disappears as suddenly as she came.

All the effort it took to suspend my disbelief and accept her as Buffy's sister. No other show would have had the dynamics to even attempt such a feat but this show does with its mystical qualities and I felt it was handled well and I quickly learned to embrace it.

I like the actress. And I really like the character of Dawn as being a very important influence on Buffy. I love the dynamics between Buffy and Dawn and believe that being "big sister" gives a dimension to Buffy's character that would otherwise be lacking. And with Buffy growing up for the show to have the same adolescent angst that made it great it would need a character in it like Dawn. "

"Perhaps it will revolve around how Buffy deals with Dawn's crisis.

Through helping Dawn Buffy begins to deal with her own baggage.

One thing about Dawn that will make make it very hard on her is that she is much younger than Buffy and still "needs" her mom.

(Now I know the death of a parent is always tough and you never fully outgrow "needing" your parents and not to minimize Buffy's lost here but when you are in your formative years parents are very important in that development).

And also while I don't want to say that Dawn was closer to her mom than Buffy as children are close to their parents in different ways Dawn did do many things with her mother. I remember that they were in a book club together. Now how will Dawn go to that book club without Joyce? Or the other things Joyce and Dawn did together.

Buffy was at a point in her life in college where she was beginning to spread her own wings. It is how things were meant to be as one grows up one goes off making their own world leaving the one their parents made for them behind. but still the negative thing was last season she unintentionally distanced herself from her mom (as most children do with their parents when they go off to college just the nature of things they do come back though). I am sure her mom understood and was proud of her but it did leave Joyce alone as the scene from "restless" indicated.

This season though she made up for that. She moved back home instead of living at the dorm and she became very close to her mom again. It is good that she did have that time.

Both Buffy and Dawn will have much pain. Perhaps it is unfair to attempt to measure who is more effected. But I can't help but to think because of Dawn's age it will be especially tough on her though I realize it is tough at any age."

Dawn did do many things with her mother. I remember that they were in a book club together. Now how will Dawn go to that book club without Joyce? Or the other things Joyce and Dawn did together.

Yes. Joyce and Dawn seemed to have more affinities than Buffy and Joyce did. Now Buffy as the older sibling will have to put aside any rivalry issues and take charge of the family.

I always found the relationship between Buffy and Joyce a bit sad because they never really seemed to understand each other (they didn't really click always tapdanced around subjects and problems). There was always a certain distance or standoffishness between them. When Dawn 'appeared' she changed that dynamic which was a relief. Now that is over too...

Oy. I just realised again how very sad this storyline is. *sniff* No one is going to come out of this unscathed.

Before Joyce and ìThe Bodyî some of the disturbing images I have seen occurred in the scene where Dawn cut herself after finding out she was the key.

Now I realize that Dawn wasnít attempting suicide in fact in a way she was trying to do the exact oppose reaffirm her existence prove that she was real but still the scene had the feel of a young girl attempting suicide and I believe it foreshadows something very dark for Dawn.

It would certainly take the show into very sensitive and bleak regions.

Perhaps I am wrong and Dawn is much stronger. But I tend to believe that the biggest threat to Dawnís existence right now isnít Glory but Dawn.

"Where did she go? Where did she come from? Why are we so accepting that there wasn't anything before but it is so hard for us to accept that there isn't anything after.

Joyce didn't always exist and now as the Raven said "Never More."

"

If there is a beginning to sentience why is it hard to believe that there is an end?

If we haven't always existed then why isit so difficult to understand that we will someday stop existing?

"There are quite a lot of striking images in this episode. After I gather my thoughts a bit and watch the ep another time or two I may make a longer post and talk about them.

For now one image in particular is staying in my mind and in a thread below Traveler mentioned:

*** "If Dawn has power she'll use it when she touches the body of her mother." ***

The image is that one at the very end when Dawn very very slowly reaches out to touch her mothers face. At the last second before she makes contact the episode ends. I saw that image and flashed on the classic painting showing God reaching out a finger to bring the spark of life to Adam.

Could Dawn do this? Is her grief so intense that she could (without necessarily knowing how)release some of the Key's energy and restore her mother to the living?

The question I am really asking though is *should* she? One obvious reason from a realverse standpoint is that as we all know angst makes for compelling drama and this is a story after all.

Suppose though that Joyces' death is fated and if Dawn interferes things will subsequently go very very wrong. Keep in mind what happened on Angel this week and what the host had to say about the lawyers and the PTB.

Your thoughts?

"

*laughs*

I just left a post regarding that answer. We must have posted almost the exact same time....

Sebastian

This question reminds me of a scene from Kenneth Branagh's Frankenstein. The creature kills Frankenstein's wife. Crazed with grief Frankenstein brings his dead wife back to life. But she isn't the same.

Would Dawn's touch pull Joyce's soul back from the ether? if that's where it is? even if it did would it still be Joyce?

"I don't think she should bring Joyce back at the expense of her own life (though I believe that Dawn would make that sacrifice in a heartbeat).

I believe if Buffy knew that if by bringing her mother back it would cost Dawn her existance she would attempt to stop Dawn.

Regardless I believe this is all a red-herring. Joyce is dead. Though this might be the buffy-verse it doesn't serve the "real life" subtext that underlies Joss's story telling to find some fantasy way to bring her back. The underlining point of all this was how final real death actual is and how people try to deal with the grief. Some mystical raising of Joyce wouldn't serve this end.

Jenny Calendar is dead. She wasn't raised up. And now Joyce is dead as well. Both storylines were used to explore how people deal with losing those they are close to.

Joss uses the mystical to advance the storyline. I don't see how a mystical raising would serve that purpose.

Still I guess it would be interesting to explore on this board.

Therefore I will give my two cents worth. If Dawn can raise Joyce and I mean Joyce without losing her own life then of course by all means she should. But would animating her body bring back Joyce's soul?

Reminds me of an episode of "So Wierd" where a man was revived after being medically frozen for ten years. He just didn't seem all there. Something was missing."

"I read elsewhere that the actress who plays Joyce wanted out so the question is probably moot. However I would like to say that Dawn resurrecting her wouldn't necessarily cheapen "The Body." That episode was about real life and how painful it can be. In "real" life a resurrection is not a trivial matter either. Can you imagine the awe you would feel if you saw somebody use that power? It would bring home the point that Dawn isn't really human. She isn't really Buffy's sister. She's meant for something far grander. "

"Dawn isn't really human.

Dawn really IS human. She IS a fourteen year old girl. But ALSO she is something more.

I don't want to downplay Dawn's humanity just like we don't downplay Buffy's humanity even though she is "more than human" as the slayer.

Both Buffy and Dawn are human with all that goes along with that.

And Dawn is "Buffy's sister" in every important sense except for her origins

I like how Tara put it. Willow said "I can't believe Dawn is not real." Tara replied "Dawn's real just new."."

"Traveller
"[Dawn is]meant for something far grander"

Meant by whom? And is a key ever grand? A key is a very specialized tool which some intelligence uses to open or solve something. The key isn't the intelligence. My house key has the POWER to open my front door but it can't decide to do so itself.
But Dawn is human and is Buffy's rather tall little sister. That much has been established by the Monk if we can believe him. What happens when the tool the key develops intelligence? Does it cease being a key? Does it still have the ability to exercise it's former function while in this case human? If it does does it cease being human? Of course our experience with energy-composed keys that become someone's little sister is scanty in fact non-existant. JW has not given us much precise info yet and may never give us much.
In other posts other questions are brought up the entry laws etc we try to answer the questions but can't because we don't know the full story. We're on a need to know basis. We're told not much more than the plot requires at the moment. We try to put all the pieces together but we seldom get a complete picture. That's one of the things that makes discussing this stuff fun and frustrating.
Hmmm don't have all the information learn as you go try to figure it out from scraps that sounds a lot like real life."

" You know The Body moved me in ways I can't even grasp. I don't cry all that much watching tv and I told myself before the show started that I would just watch it and not get all emotional. But the first 10 minutes of the eppie with Buffy made me do things I didn't know I could. I retched I really retched and it was so unexpected. It happened about a minute after Buffy did and it took me awhile to recover. The whole scene was eerie unerving and it creeped me out beyond anything in a long time. After that scene I was bawling for Dawn it was just so much in so little time Joss eppies=Angst with a capital A. Anya broke my heart everyone did but Buffy's reaction to it all hit me hard. You could see her melting even though she was trying so hard to keep herself together I hope she gets a little time to mourn or she might go all "Faith" like. Thank God for Giles Buffy showed a lot of maturity by letting Giles handle things for her Season 4 Buffy would want to handle everything herself despite the situation. Buffy needs some down-time or she might turn out like Kate did. I miss Joyce It took her dying for me to actually appreciate what her being there meant to everybody. She was Buffy's Mom but she was a comfort and friend to them all. I do wonder how Spike will react to this he seemed to like Joyce. NAKED VAMPIRE:He looked rather peckish didn't he...so that's what happens to Calvin Kline models when they die!

Joss really is "God" like sometimes isn't he?

Angel made me feel a lot better everything is back to normal(if that's even possible)you know ATS usually makes me feel all depressed while Buffy makes me all happy inside it was the opposite this week! "

"I read somewhere that people shouldn't watch "the body" alone. I told myself:"You're 31. Go girl you don't need any shoulder to cry on". #5 minutes after the episode aired here I find myself reading as much post I can to find a shoulder to cry on! I just spent the whol day with my mother and the episode was just too much to take in.

Thanks all for being here and share your thoughts... I'll keep reading your posts and try to bring my mind together! "

and to think there's a two hour delay between Buffy and Angel... still half an hour before Angel relief. I watched it alone too Nina and now I'm cuddling my dog for comfort.

It *is* good to talk it out here:)

Angel was a good comfort too.... I was worth the two hours wait! :)

Give a hug to your dog for me....! :)

Will do:)

BTW I had a smile on my face for the entire duration of Epiphany.

I believe the reason it moved you is because a lot of it was true to life. Thus I commend the acting. My mother in-law passed away this last December. I saw a lot of what happened with the anger sorrow anguish and disbelief in all of us that loved her. Sometimes months after the fact I still wonder why it happened and that it is so strange. Death should cause grief and sorrow in those that loved the one who has passed on. It means we care. The actors did a great job showing the reality of this. Again I commend them.

I agree with all of you. Having had similar experiences I was so impressed at how real the scenes played. That's just how it is when you lose a loved one the shock pain confusion everything. And natural death on the Hellmouth is something the SG does not often see. I so felt for Anya she was trying so hard to understand things. And poor Buffy how is she going to get through this?

And I agree Angel was just what was needed it was uplifting. The scene where Kate professes to have faith as she had never invited Angel in gave me the chills. Fortunately for me in Chicago the episodes run back to back so I didn't have to wait long for the solace.

Lynn

i have to be honest... out of the whole cast of Buffy it was anya who moved me the most. she was like a child who has lost a friend and don't exactly know why. and the fact that it was the simplest things about joyce (eating eggs and stuff) that she talked about made me feel more sorry for her. last night she was so confused and sad and all she wanted was to know WHY. why all this stuff was happening and why can't joyce just come back. for some odd reason she can't grasp the concept of joyce's death. unlike other beings that she buffy and the scooby gang has killed it was easy for her to accept that the creatures are dead. but when it came to joyce she needed some kind of justification for it. and it was like watching a child who have very little knowledge of things try to figure out exactly why...

*sniff* poor anya..

"There's a difference between killing evil creatures and a mortal human; one who was loved and not evil dying of a brain tumor. Maybe Anya thought the only way anything could die was to be killed physically by another being. This had to be a wake up call for Anya as a mortal and I'm sure she's thinking "This could/will happen to me one day.. and there's nothing I..or anyone else can do about it."

I believe Anya is dealing with something she has never dealt with before. Grief. It is a powerful thing to lose a loved one. The thought that you will never see them again on this side is terrible at times. Anya has seen a lot of death in her time as a demon but she had never felt the internal pangs of grief and sorrow. VMS

I think it's possible Joyce's death will have a big impact on Anya if she is ever confronted with the opportunity to become a demon again both in terms of her own mortality and of seeking to cut herself off from such deep human pain.

Children do not completely understand the complexity of death like we do. I have seen this in my four children. Even my oldest wasn't hit to a great extent by the death of his grandmother. Perhaps this is to shield them from further trama in the future? But Anya definately showed that type of reaction. She was just like a child. VMS

"Her "child-like" role very important & worthwhile in this episode doesn't always sit well with me. I realize that ~1100 years as an immortal would leave you fuzzy on many former human qualities and customs but there are times when her supposed ignorance of human behavior is taken too far in my mind - Things like why politeness is good for business (in the magic shop). Now that I am posting this of course I can't think of the other episodes of the past 2 seasons that have been noticing this trend. Coming back to her dealing with death I wonder if 1100 years ago how she didn't encounter a "real" death of someone close after 20 years. I suppose that truly is chalked up to leaving humanity mortality and intimacy behind. Urrrggg."

The kinds of behaviors you're describing BHC and that's what they are behaviors rather than qualities are learned through the examples of others and simply bumbling through the experience previously and are learned best and most easily while growing up. However like any other learned behavior they are replaced or discarded if they are not used. Anya would not have had a use for many human behaviors as a vengence demon and they would have sloughed off like a snake's skin. That doesn't stop her as human now from feeling but rather from having a clue as to how to appropriately express those feelings.
Regarding the need to be polite to customers if you think everyone knows that you mustn't do much shopping.

"This is not necessarily philosophical just some fun. The idea is to pick a love theme song for the characters in the Buffyverse. The song can be any style and from any era (although it must have lyrics!). Please identify the song and the artist. Then give sample lyrics that justify your choice. (The whole song does not necessarily have to fit a particular character just your sample lyrics.)

Confused?? Perhaps my examples below will help:

character: Buffy
love song: "Faith" by George Michael
sample lyrics:
"I want someone to hold me
But I wait for something more"

character: Xander
love song: "Love Potion No. 9" by The Clovers
sample lyrics:
"I told her I was a flop with chicks
I'd been this way since nineteen fifty-six"

character: Spike
love song: "Tainted Love" by Soft Cell
"Don't touch me please
I cannot stand the way you tease
I love you though you hurt me so"

Have fun boys and girls!
:-)"

After careful deliberation here are my choices. It took me a long time because I felt the entire song had to fit.

Spike (with Buffy in (or out of:) mind)

You Go To My Head

You go to my head and you linger like a haunting refrain
And I find you spinning 'round in my brain
Like the bubbles in a glass of champagne
You go to my head like a sip of sparkling Burgundy brew
And I find the very mention of you
Like the kicker in a julep or two

The thrill of the thought that you might give a thought to my plea
Cast a spell over me
Still I say to myself get a hold of yourself
Can't you see that it never can be

You go to my head with a smile that makes my temperature rise
Like a summer with a thousand Julys
You intoxicate my soul with your eyes
Though I'm certain that this heart of mine
Hasn't a ghost of a chance in this crazy romance
You go to my head
You go to my head

***

And for Angel (with Darla in mind - hmmm except for the love part...)

That Old Black Magic

That old black magic has me in its spell
That old black magic that you weave so well
Icy fingers up
and down my spine
The same old witchcraft when your eyes meet mine
The same old tingle that I feel
inside
When that elevator starts its ride
Down and down I go round and round I go
Like a leaf that'
scaught in the tide
I should stay away but what can I do
I hear your name and I'm aflame
Aflame with
such a burning desire
That only your kiss can put out the fire
You are the lover that I've waited for
The mate that fate had me created for
And every time your lips meet mine
Baby down and down I go
all around I go
In a spin loving the spin that I'm in
Under that old black magic called love

***

I'm glad I finally found some songs because this question has been clattering around my brain for too long. Funny no contemporary tunes were 'doing it' for me...

"Here is the song that keeps running through my head for Willow (may not be the best fit):

Willow
"Torn Between Two Lovers" (sorry can't remember the artist)
"Torn between two lovers
Feeling like a fool
Loving both of you
Is breaking all the rules"

"Maybe William feels a little bit like this sometimes. Or thats how its seems to him.

Its called Furious angels by Rob Dugan
I recommend the orchestrial version.

"Like a sentence of death
I got no options left
I got nothing to show now
Iím down on the ground
I got seconds to live
And you canít go now
Cause love like an invisible bullet
Set me down and Iím bleeding
Yeah Iím bleeding
And if you go
Furious angels will bring you back to me
Will bring you back to me

Youíre a dirty needle
Youíre in my blood and thereís no curing me
(Yeah!)
And I want to run like the blood from a wound
To a place you canít see me
Cause love like a blow to the head
Has left me stunned and Iím reeling
Yeah Iím reeling
And if you go
Furious angels will bring you back to me
(Yeah!)

Youíre a cold piece of steel
Between my ribs and thereís no saving me
(Hey!)
And I canít get up
From the sweat crimson bed that you make for me
That you make for me
Cause love like a knife in the backís
Cut me down and Iím bleeding
Yeah Iím bleeding
And if you go
Angels will run to their family
To their family cause I canít get up
Iím as cold as a stove
I can feel the life fade from me
(Hey!)
Iím down on the ground
I got seconds to live
And whatís that that waits for me?
Oh that waits for me?

Cause love like a sentence of deathís
Left me stunned and Iím reeling
Yeah Iím reeling
And if you go
Furious angels will bring you back to me
(Hey!) "
"

"I loved how they brought out the emotion in Angel last night. When he was trying to make up with Wesley it was way too funny. "Hey I recently got a stomach wound too." LoL. The fact that he was so talkative had to tip Wesley off that something was different.
Also I am not sure that the "truth" is that things do not matter from an eternal perspective. I am not sure we can trust the teachings of W & H. Holland is a scoundral who only told what he thought would take Angel over the edge. It actually did cause him to run after Darla but it did not affect him to become Angelus again.
What did you guys think of Kate not inviting Angel in? Did she die so Angel could come in? Or did the powers allow Angel to come in even though he had not been invited?
One last thing; since Angel has turned the corner will we see him go after W & H again? I asked my wife and she said she thought he would.
Ok I lied. This is the last thing. Did anyone think it was a big deal that Angel killed one of the senior partners? It would seem that he is more of a target than ever. Plus we find out from Lindsey that Angel could have gone to the home office except they did a spell. This would also make me feel as though not much of Holland's talk meant very much as far as truth is concerned.
I have brought up a ton of stuff. I realize that I am just too pumped up after these episides. VanMoodySenior
"

"I think the spell to deactivate the ring happened after the elevator ride.

As for Angel "killing" a senior partner I'm not sure he did. If I remember right Denver (the beatnik sage) said that the SP take on the form of a Klaynak demon to travel so maybe the SP just lost that form and can take another one on. Also from the way events unfolded it almost seemed like making Angel so desperate to get to the Home Office where he could find out the "awful truth" that hell is in our hearts was part of the plan all along.

Good point about Kate maybe being dead or so close to it that the invitation clause was temporarily suspended. That explanation works for me. Still shows that TPTB might have had a hand in arranging such miraculous timing."

I figured Kate was Dead and Angel revived her.

"You know at the end of the last episode and the beginning of the new one we see Angel rise out of bed gasping. He rushes to the balcony in obvious pain until it passes and he straightens up. In otherwords everything happens exactly as it did when he lost his soul. Except that we know he didn't lose his soul. Everybody assumed that it was just a red herring and ignored it. I give the writers more credit than that. SOMETHING was causing Angel pain and I don't believe that it was a sword wound or cramps. What was it?

Maybe instead of losing his humanity he strengthened it. Instead of losing his soul he lost his "demon soul." Perhaps the road to humanity is not an instant reward but a gradual process; as Angel discovers more about himself and what it is to be human he recovers more of his humanity and that is what we saw on the balcony. He was able to enter Kate's room because he is more human and the restrictions of vampires don't bind him as tightly. As you mention he never TRIED to enter Wesley's room. Maybe if he had really wanted to he could have.

Here is Rufus' rebuttal:
I kind of compare Angels reaction in Epiphany to Buffys throwing up in The Body. The characters were having similar reactions to a stressful event in their lives. Buffy the death of her mother. Angel the Epiphany or realization that he was being given another chance and no longer was in despair as Darls no longer had any power over him. You almost have to wonder if the Demon was a little pissed not to have ridded itself of that pesky old soul and it was retching in rage.

Aquitain agrees with me though :P
"

"I think that Epiphany explains that entire sequence for me better because I was pretty confused when I watched Reprise. The elevator was moving at an exponential speed and they SHOWED the elevator moving through an area that looked like a cavern full of flames and lava or something to that effect. But then they're back at the floor they got on at. When I watched Reprise I wondered if Home Office is simply here then where did that elevator travel through? With Epiphany its sort of explained because they disenchanted the ring IMMEDIATELY after it was stolen by Angel. Perhaps he WAS at "Home Office" before they disenchanted the ring and Holland knew they were going to disenchant it and took advantage of their REarrival in the Earthly plane."

I think that the whole flame thing was just for show.

Hell is on earth. In people's hearts.

If Angel loses his demon soul would he still be a vampire? I think something happened on that balcony. I am not sure if it was just a stomach wound either. thx for the insight. VanMoodySenior

He may just die. In I Will Remember You Angel was human again after the blood of a Mohra demon destroyed the demon within him and restored life to his body with the human soul present to animate it. However I think the key to his living to be human there lies in that his body's human physiology was restored. If Angel simply lost the demon I think his body would cease to function and the soul would go on to the Ether.

But what if his vampire physiology is still there and his human soul is in it. He doens't have to follow any of the rules of vampires regarding being invited into people's homes but he can still survive being run over by a truck and hit with a sledgehammer.

I don't believe that's possible though. I think the physiology of a human is altered to that of a vampire BY the demon residing in the body. If the human soul occupied it instead of the demon I think the body would simply turn to dust because the essence holding it together mystically was gone.

"What did you guys think of Kate not inviting Angel in? Did she die so Angel could come in? Or did the powers allow Angel to come in even though he had not been invited?

I have come up with 3 possible solutions

1) Kate's call to Angel (cry for help) was considered an implicit invitation.

2) (I almost thought of making it a subset of 1 as it is very similar) during her rantings on the phone perhaps she said something similar to "when you find me in my Apartment dead" (I wish I had a transcript of what she said). Perhaps in something she said she unintentionally said something that was considered an invite (I can think of two other cases when that happened. Dawn's unintentional invite to Harmony. And when Cordy told Angel that when she gets a new place he is invited to visit.)

3) Kate was clinically dead for a few moments. She could have flatlined allowing Angel to come in like you suggested."

"What did you guys think of Kate not inviting Angel in? Did she die so Angel could come in? Or did the powers allow Angel to come in even though he had not been invited?

I have come up with 3 possible solutions

1) Kate's call to Angel (cry for help) was considered an implicit invitation."

I favor theory number one -- remember the Master visiting Darla on her deathbed: he said he had had heard her "singing" to him. The invitation was never spoken just thought -- and thought coherently(i.e. she wasn't thinking "I wish the Master would come in.") Something about her state of mind near death extended the invitation. I think it was the same for Kate -- she wished for someone to come and rescue her perhaps not when she initially attempted suicide but as her life was slipping away -- and that was enough.

"

"Since we are talking about corners here lets here what both Angel and Kate have to say about their second(in Angels case 3rd)chances to get life right.

Angel: "Well I guess I kind of worked it out. If there's not great glorious end to it all this if nothing matters...then all that matters is what we do. Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long for redemption for a reward and finally just to beat the other guy. I never got it."

Angel: "Not all of it. But now I just wanna help. I wanna help because people shouldn't suffer as they do. Because if there isn't any bigger meaning then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world."

Kate: "I'm okay anyway I'm not...headed for another pillathon. I'm...grateful. But I got cut a huge break and I believe ..I don't know what I believe but I have faith. I think maybe we're not alone in this.
Angel: "Why?"
Kate: "Because I never invited you in."

What do these two characters have in common that led them to such despair as to attempt death. Kate to die Angel to lose his soul. To me where they got lost was they both got caught up in the big picture. They were so invested in winning a final battle that would make all wrong go away forever that they lost touch with the very people that they wished so hard to protect. They now both have a new chance to get it right.
I don't care how Angel got into Kates place the fact is that this one act has given both parties a new direction a new faith in themselves and humanity.
When Wolfram & Hart got Angel caught up in the bit picture it won the war. He was no longer an effective warrior of good. Kate when she lost her faith in her ability to make a difference got caught up in that same big picture. So what do they do now? They do the one thing that will make the only difference that counts they will trust in themselves to do the right decent thing. They will both start to do what Angel talked about. They will with the best of their ability make the suffering of man a priority instead of winning a battle. "The smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world" They will start by paying attention to the people that they can help now not to win but to lessen the suffering of man one person at a time. It may not sound like the big battle we were geared up to see but it's a very important start. Wolfram & Hart is all about encouraging man to be his worst revel in evil kill thy brother all for the most petty reasons. They live on the evil that lives in the hearts of every living being. By even engaging in the most simple act of kindness Wolfram & Hart lose power the power to corrupt and destroy. Sounds simple but if it works it's worth a try. And to Ryuei I think that means that Angel stops adding to his Karmic debt."

I agree I think Angel has reached the stage where he is no longer making bad causes and no longer making good causes in the hopes of a reward. In Buddhism this would be roughly equivalent to the state of an arhat (worthy one) who has left behind the cycle of cause and effect. However the Mahayanists (of which I would cout myself) consider this as simply a null state - one must go past it and begin generating gratuitous merit which one dedicates to all sentient beings. This involves the aspiration to achieve perfect and complete awakening for oneself and others. This is the positive face of selflessness. I am happy that Angel has made it this far but the journey is not over yet.

So true Ryuei I see Angels ephiphany as the beginning of a new journey for him. To me every single act of kindness counts. He has to start somewhere and part of it was the humility to ask forgivness and to work for his former employees not the other way around. He is now less about the image and more about the work.

"I could be totally off on this but when I saw the episode I already knew beforehand that Angel wasn't going to revert to Angelus. When he staggers out on the balcony in pain I presumed that he was having some sort of panic attack...hyperventilating adreniline rush chest pains whatever.

What I think happened is he woke up realized what he'd done with Darla and just freaked about the fact that he might lose his soul. Part of his epiphany was that no matter how bad the world is he doesn't want to be evil again. Thus he caused himself to have a complete panic attack because he realized he'd just done something that would jeopardize his soul.

In regards to Kate's "I didn't invite you in" I think the PTB's were working their magic. When Angel finds Kate on the floor she must have a pulse even though Angel never says so. The reason I believe this is that Angel is a pretty smart guy and if he'd found her without a pulse he wouldn't have rushed her to the shower he would have called 911 or rushed her to the hospital himself.

Of course she could have died for just a second but I'd like to think it was the PTB's that allowed that to happen. Now we just have to wonder why is Kate so darn important to them? Or were they just worried about how Angel would react if he didn't save Kate?"

***I already knew beforehand that Angel wasn't going to revert to Angelus. When he staggers out on the balcony in pain I presumed that he was having some sort of panic attack...hyperventilating adreniline rush chest pains whatever.***

amber I think you're right on. A slight modification of this theory is that Angel after waking and realizing what he and Darla had done *assumed* he was going to lose his soul again and started reacting like he did after the night with Buffy. Sort of like when you've been hurt by something (hot stove burner biting dog etc.) and when you go to touch that object again you start reacting as if you've been hurt even though you haven't been. And then you realize that you're okay.

Kate's invitation or lack thereof:
Kate may believe that she must *explicitly* invite a vampire in before they can enter her home. I believe she gave Angel an *implied* invitation - otherwise why did she call Angel in the first place?? She wanted to be found despite her suicide attempt. When Angel found Kate she was unconscious not dead. Granted I am not a medical professional but I don't believe you can revive someone who has flatlined just by sticking them in a cold shower.
Another possibility is that due to the pills and the booze Kate does not remember inviting Angel into her apartment when she was talking to his answering machine.

"But "implied" invitation don't work. Angel already asked for Buffy to invite him in she answered "I guess" and he said he needed more thn that!

I really think that it's the PTB that had something to do with it. That's a huge detail and it wouldn't have been underlined that way if it didn't mean something huge! My opinion anyway! ;)"

Okay. Maybe the PTBs saw that Angel finally got his act together (or at least most of it) about fighting evil his own redemption etc. and decided to throw him a bone - by allowing Angel to enter Kate's apartment and save her from her suicide attempt without having an expressed invitation from her.

"But "implied" invitation don't work.

They did in the case of the Master and Darla.

If Kate didn't want Angel to come rescue her she wouldn't have called."

"The "invite" was the call and the desire of Kate for Angel to save her. That was the "invite in".

If she really wanted to die she wouldn't have called.

We did see the same with Darla and the Master."

Darla wasn't in a private residence when The Master came to her she was in a convent being bled. This would be like entering a hospital no invitation is needed for a vampire to enter.

Think about it. No Angel. No Faith. No Riley. No Ozwolf. The only one who can stand toe to toe with the forces of Darkness is Buffy herself. Shes got two witches an ex-demon a middle aged man and Xander for backup. Yeah Tara and Will can do their magi stuff but when it comes down to fisticuffs Buffy is all alone.

Except for Spike...

"Except for Spike you say? I'd like more than anything to see Spike help them but how can he? He's a chipped vamp with a love obsession. I'm hoping after he hears of Joyces' death he'll scrap the idea of a "Buffy-bot" and offer his unselfish support after all he did like Joyce; she was one of the few people who treated him decent without expecting anything in return.
I just don't know how he could help in any way though. We've seen Buffy battle with Glory and leave her with hardly a scratch..well maybe a broken nail. So I believe it will take all their power combined but mostly the power of the key to kill Glory and the other 2 gods. Something to think about though..isn't unselfish love supposed to be the most powerful force above all things? "

"I'm hoping after he (Spike) hears of Joyces' death he'll scrap the idea of a Buffy-bot" and offer his unselfish support after all he did like Joyce; she was one of the few people who treated him decent without expecting anything in return."

Spike is a vampire without a soul. He can't give his "unselfish support". It isn't within him. We expect him to be human. But he isn't.

(I will spare everyone the whole Fox and Scorpion story) (Or the story about the cat that turns into a groom who chases mice his wedding night).

Suffice to say it is unfair to to expect Spike to act in ways that he is not able to nor will he ever be able to. Cows don't crow crows don't moo. And nothing we do can change that."

"Ok

I lied.

One more time!

A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly he saw a fox he asked the fox to take him on his back across the river. The fox said "no if I do that you'll sting me and I'll drown." The scorpion assured him "if I did that we'd both drown." So the fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the scorpion climbed up on his back and fox began to swim. But half way across the river the scorpion stung him. As the poison filled his veins the fox turned to the scorpion and said "why did you do that now you'll drown too." "I couldn't help it " said the scorpion "it's my nature."

"Keep in mind the season 1 Scooby Gang really only had a Slayer 2 high school students and a middle aged man and they still faired quite well. Sure Angel was around but he was more cryptic-clue-guy than fellow fighter in the beginning.

I don't think the Scooby strength comes from physical abilities there's a lot more to it than that.

As much as I hate to quote the original Buffy movie there's a line in there where the Watcher says "You do everything wrong yet you get everthing right." or something to that affect.

That's how the Scooby Gang is they don't play by the book and yet their unique approach teamwork and devotion to the side of good is what helps them win.

However I would will willing to agree that they're weak right now simply because their moral is down due to Joyce's death.

If Glory had walked into the morgue during "The Body" she might have actually beat the Scooby Gang."

Buffy and the SG have been weak and vulnerable all season (in terms of their fighting record).

Random thoughts:

The SG were easy targets for Dracula's enthralling mind games and though Buffy outwitted Dracula in the end she didn't stamp him out altogether.

In OomM Buffy and Riley do not 'win' against Spike and Harmony. It's a draw.

Buffy has been bested by Glory at every turn (Glory could do a great deal of damage at any moment - her MO is very bizarre). The fact that Buffy has no chance to win against Glory makes Glory a very boring villain.

Buffy got staked by a garden-variety vamp in FFL and the SG acted like amateurs on patrol with Riley.

Twice Willow's magic has saved Buffy's butt (Glory in BT Troll in Triangle).

Buffy had quite a bit of trouble with the vamp in The Body.

Not to mention that Buffy has faced two superstrong females like herself...

Buffy's most successful slaying was done in ITW (vengeful ambiguous Buffy).

Buffy cannot 'win' the big fight the fight to end all fights. I suspect that Buffy will have to accept the equivocal nature of her calling.

"Just as all threads lead to Spike all Realverse events relate to Buffy:

Last night I caught the last half of the special on A&E about civil rights leaders. Ozzie Davis was talking about how the fight for civil rights and equality goes on. That it never ends there is always more to fight against. That you may win one portion of the fight (i.e. eliminating segragation) but then there is another portion (i.e. poverty) that still needs to be fought.

I thought that this is very much how the fight against Evil works in the Buffyverse. We have discussed this same thing here. No matter how many vampires demons evil things etc. Buffy and the Scoobies kill there is always another to threaten life as they know it. There is no fight to end all fights. And sometimes the Evil Thing is not mystical magical or Hellmouth related. It is a "simple" thing like the death of your mother the cornerstone of your world.

This season Buffy has supposedly concentrating on her Slayer powers and abilities. However she has she has had to deal with a larger than normal share of "real world" problems: boyfriend leaving annoying little sister mother dying attentions of an unwanted stalker-boy etc. For Buffy just as for those of us out here in the Realverse life is what happens when you're making other plans."

I tried to ignore this post but I just couldnít let it pass. There are times when people have to speak out even when they feel certain that the other person will not listen - but you never know; they may change. How many times does this false parable from Voyager have to be refuted? Even Star Trek proved it wrong time and time again. Scorpions are not sentient beings. Sentient beings not only CAN change they DO change. That is THEIR nature. In fact it is fundamental to being a sentient being.

Yes gds sentient beings change it's the way they may change that will vary. If you expose a good person to evil enough and give them enough reason to like it they will become evil. So as vampires are sentient and can make choices what would the constant exposure to good with a incentive to remain good do to a vampire. The vampires can act against their nature if it suits them but usually revert to type. Is that the influence of evil in the form of the demon soul or conditioning of fellow peers. It would be interesting to see what could happen. Being sentient means you can perceive and feel so what do those traits bring to the vampire as a demon?

Quite right Rufus. The incidents of good kid gone bad are legion. There are also numerous incidents of the bad repenting and straightening out their lives though that is much harder and probably much less frequent. Some people are strong enough to go their own way regardless of the circumstances and the cost most will find a way to live within what they believe to be their environmental constraints regardless of whether these constraints are brutal or gentle vicious or kind. Everyone is influenced to some extent by his or her environment. When the environment changes there is culture shock but then we adjust. The strange thing about culture shock is that it works in reverse as well. When you move to another country it is at first adventurous then boring then tedious and irritating and then finally you adapt to a new definition of 'normal'. But when you return to the first country you have to go through it all again because what use to be normal is now abnormal.

Spike has experienced a major cultural shock and he may have passed the point where 'normal' vampire behavior is now abnormal to him. That doesn't mean he has accepted ënormalí human behavior yet but it could be silently stalking him.

"It is unfair to Spike to expect him to act in ways he is unable to act and will never be able to act.

As Angel said "Vampire" look it up (subcategory -without soul).

He will never be what many want him to be. He can't help it. It's what he is.

(by the way I heard that parable before in it's various forms long before they told it on Voyager. There is a similar one that McGyver told a kid about a snake in a sleeping bag. Even though the snake promised not to bite the camper if the camper would allow it to sleep in the bag to keep warm it bit the camper anyway. Why? Because that is what snakes do.)"

How many times does this false parable from Voyager have to be refuted? Even Star Trek proved it wrong time and time again. Scorpions are not sentient beings.

The story is much older than Star Trek. It's based on a classical source namely Aesop's fables. http://www.allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html

The scorpion tale is a fable - animals talk and therefore *are* sentient by definition in fables. But then the scorpion's nature is also defined. The moral of the story is I agree often overstated. What's confusing in the case of Spike is exactly the nature of the game. Is he the same as a scorpion or is he able to see himself from the outside.

I believe him able to sacrifice himself but that's the limit of his redemptive ability. He's like a soul in hell - damned.

It seems to me its ultimate expression.

Though it would be interesting to see if Spike who right now is perfectly capable of and willing to die for Buffy would be able to live for her in the sense of rejecting not just the big evils (aiding her enemies feeding her to ex-girlfriends) but the little ones.

"I've never posted here before and I'm 100% possitive that this is not the way to start but I felt compelled to see what other Buffy fans might think of last night's ep. and as I've lurked here before I thought I would say something here. I simply need the catharsis or I'll go nuts.

Mostly the reaction is just as I suspected. Overwhelming sympathy to say the least. And whereas I may could not be as harsh on Joss as Mr. Hines' review I did however feel a great sense of disappointment. I know I'm going to get flamed and staked for this but I just have to say it.

My first gripe was the total inaccuracies of the paramedics scene. I realize that this is the Buffyverse and we have vampires and demons! So what's my gripe with unrealistic 'real life' scene. Basically I feel someone of Joss' writing calibre should have done his homework better for I've always admired his storytelling. It is not within a paramedic's jurisdiction to "call it". A death can only be pronounce by a physician. The paramedics would have worked on Joyce and rushed her to the E.R. even if is all in vain. She would have been pronounce dead by the E.R. physician and "the body" would have been left undisturbed and transferred to the Medical Examiner's office and barring the permission of the closest living relative an autopsy would be performed to determine the cause of death. I work in emergency medicine and this scene completely wrong.

The only reason it was written this way was to merit the Buffy's plaintiff line "we're not supposed to move the body" followed by the horrified realization that "the body" was none other than her own mother; and "the body" was indeed written and aired at the end of February sweeps with the intention of an Emmy nomination and a showcase for the actors. The actors were all wonderful in themselves its not them I have any beef with and its very possible that an Emmy or two may be the result for one or more of these actors. Ironically for the script itself I dare say that Joss' lack of 'realistic' scene writing may have hurt his chances for an Emmy nomination in the category of best screen writing. As far as the pure wonder of story telling is concerned I'm sticking with eps like "Hush" and "Becoming 2".

The school scene for the most part was good as was the bathroom scene the art class scene but I'd have to say I found the scene in the hallway for too contrived. It should have been done in private. Grief should not be a spectacle they are private moments intense and personal. MT was very good. Ayna I feel had one of the most sympathetic scenes of the episode. My estimation of Emma Caulfield just rose several notches. The whole choice for clothing incoherence was a wonderful scene. It really highlights the confusion of how a friend must act in the face of her best friend's grief. But it's a misplaced scene. It would have been far more convincing in a scene before the funeral. When all is said and done despite the largely wonderful performance of the actors I was left with this feeling that it was all wrong. I understand that Joss was paying a tribute to Joyce but I absolutely agree with David Hines that its too little too late. Joyce was always hopelessly under used. Its no wonder that Ms. Sutherland wanted off the show. I wish her luck. The biggest thing I don't get is that if this is the story of dealing with a loved one's death why the hell is it more important to highlight the gang's feelings at this particular juncture than that of Joyce's own daughters. We never did get any insights of their 'closeness' before now then we're hammered on the head with it. Now I'm not saying that this shouldn't happen just that the timing is wrong.

Interestingly if I totally suspend my disbelief about the whole paramedic mess SMG's slightly surreal and 'underacting' in the first 10 mins was the most compelling. I also feel that the contrast of her subtle detachment as compared with the emotional responses from everyone else is actually a clue to what's to come. SMG's emotional role hasn't yet come. But it will. I just hope that it comes from the pen or keyboard of Marti Noxen. (I didn't spell that right!)

Its not that I hated this episode there were many merits to it. The appropriate non-use of sound and Buffy's flashes (which may lead to a huge guilt trip down the road- maybe) were great cineatic tools. But again I question its intentions. Was it used to tell a story or was the story adapted to fit the tools - just to be different. I know I may be a little suspicicious here but the episode just reeked of "I want an Emmy". And whereas I think that Joss is long overdue an Emmy I can't say it should be for this episode.

I know 99.9% of you will hate this unknown person's post hence I should probably not leave an e-mail :) Feel free to scold away. Just one person's humble opinion.

curious.
"

Geeze pick nits much? :)

Seriously though I think it is good to critique the technical aspects. Nothing is ever perfect and things can always be done better.

I am glad you told us the correct paramedic procedure. I can suspend disbelief and allow for literary license as much as the next person but the procedures in that scene did seem a bit off to me. It just seemed odd to me that they would leave the body there and it seemed doubly odd that the same ambulance would get called right after responding to one emergency. However I think the scene accomplished what it intended to - which was to hammer home the reality and the relatively real world nature of Joyce's death.

As for the hallway scene well Buffy was trying to get to get Dawn to go somewhere private. I also think that it was a good contrast between Dawn being so concerned about saving face in the bathroom and the kind of overwhelming grief that doesn't care about what others think. In that sense I think it was done just right.

I agree completely about SMG acting in the beginning being so understated and thereby compelling. I also agree that EC's scene in the dorm room was the most sympathetic. It was actually at that scene where I began to get teary eyed. Anya's grief and confusion was gut-wrenching and showed just how human and yet touchingly immature she really is.

Please post more your contribution was a good one and people tend not to flame each other here.

Sorry I couldn't help myself here Ryuei have a chocolate.

I'm not in a scolding mood at the moment. Sure Joss could have done some more homework but I think alot of what was done was strictly for time and plot considerations. Writers aren't EMTs or doctors or cops or coroners. I have learned to go with the flow with the inacurate depictions of the above mentioned. I understand your feelings though. This episode is only the beginning of the grieving process and I forgive the inacurate depiction of the EMTs ect because even with alot of homework Joss would have gotten some stuff wrong as it would take forever to get the finer points of Police doctor EMT ect. procedure. So I choose to ignore it as merely irritating. The show wasn't about the EMTs it was about a death in the family. There was so much good here that I see you have noted. Give the guy a bit of a break and realise that he won't get everything totally accurate and there wouldn't be time to anyway.

Well I know that paramedics can be instructed by hospitals not to bring in patients who have no hope of resuscitation so I don't think that leaving the body there was unrealistic.

"My first gripe was the total inaccuracies of the paramedics scene. snip

You know my first reaction to your statement was have you ever read John Sutherland's series of books on nitpicking conundrums from great works of literature? (Henry V War Criminal? Is Heathcliff a Murderer? etc.) You'll either enjoy them or find them highly annoying. They tackle questions like How come Moll Flanders younger brother was older how could the Cratchetts cook that huge Christmas goose in time for Christmas dinner did Fagin get a fair trial?

I like them because they demonstrate that ultimately with enough ingenuity you can pretty much explain away any nit. Well almost if it isn't a personal nit. So if you will forgive my levity I will crack my Star Trek trained knuckles (ah the nits oh the nits):
1) There is such a high violence rate that paramedics are worked off their feet running from crisis to crisis. There just aren't enough of them to go around. (which actually opens up a whole can of how is there a resident population in Sunnydale nit but one at a time please)
2) Different areas have different regulations with regards to procedure.
3) The Mayor changed local regulations in order increase his access to newly arisen corpses people not necessarily dead vampires or body parts.
4) The Mayor crafty devil cast a geas on all local paramedics and law enforcement officers (long outlasting his death) which would effect their behavior when visiting the house of the slayer.
5) Its an evil conspiracy. (See the X-files for further details)
6) And finally it's the Hellmouth. (good for all nits)

"The school scene for the most part was good as was the bathroom scene the art class scene but I'd have to say I found the scene in the hallway for too contrived. It should have been done in private. Grief should not be a spectacle they are private moments intense and personal. MT was very good."

See my post on negative space on the new board.

"The biggest thing I don't get is that if this is the story of dealing with a loved one's death why the hell is it more important to highlight the gang's feelings at this particular juncture than that of Joyce's own daughters. We never did get any insights of their 'closeness' before now then we're hammered on the
head with it. Now I'm not saying that this shouldn't happen just that the timing is wrong."

Because Joyce wasn't just beloved by her daughters but by the community in which she lived. Consider how her employees will feel Brian (her date?) her friends aquaintances and on and on. All people whose grief we will probably never see because it is not germane to the plot line. We see Buffy's grief. We see Dawn's. We see the SG mainly as a group. Each exhibiting a different aspect a different reaction to loss. I feel sorry for Giles he's the only one who doesn't get to let go. Because of course he can't. He has to hold it together for his child in all but blood. Here's hoping Hank comes to the funeral.

"I know 99.9% of you will hate this unknown person's post hence I should probably not leave an e-mail :) Feel free to scold away. Just one person's humble opinion."

Opine and rebut and nit away. The only person who can determine your reactions to a story is you."

As has already been mentioned in the resposes so far as long as you're polite and apply at least some aspect of logic or reason to your arguments you aren't going to get flamed here curious. Speaking for myself it's one of the reasons I regularly frequent this board-- the high quality of both posts and responses really sets it apart. 'Nuff said about that!

Actually I questioned too about not having a doctor 'call it'. It is my understanding that if a doctor is available via phone radio etc and all the necessary information has been presented (for example the fact that Joyce's body was cold) authorization could be given to stop resucitation attempts.

I didn't see anything wrong with them leaving the body there (while it may not be the 'normal' procedure) since apparently there was nothing more to be done and there was another emergency call. The one paramedic did take the time to speak as considerately as he could under those time constraints.

You are correct I feel that the show is positioned to draw more attention in terms of possible awards. In a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary but the ugly reality of how the television (or movie) business works is that Emmy noms or wins bring in advertisers. Without advertising no Buffy.

Personally I would rather have all Buffy fans send say $25.00 per year to the WB and then we could have hour long eps with no commercials. Is that going to happen? I doubt it look at PBS going begging all the time and they have a whole raft of quality programs on all the time. The average TV network has what 3 or 4? If they're lucky?

So in conclusion I understand waht you are complaining about curious. I just try to write off that stuff as it happens and concentrate on the good stuff of which as you yourself pointed out there was plenty.

This was a good ep but on my personal best of list *Fool for Love* and *Becoming Pt 2* still rule. This one will be in the top 5 but I haven't decided exactly where just yet.

I'll join Ryuei in asking please post again. You are welcome here.

Dear Curious you are certainly entitled to your views and opinions. That's what this board thrives on. I appreciate your thoughts. It's always good to hear from someone who knows what correct procedures are. Let's here more.

"The one paramedic did take the time to speak as considerately as he could under those time constraints.

We've mentioned the lack of music the doctor's overdubbed "I have to lie to you... " and the scenes where Buffy imagines Joyce is still alive but one cinematic device I liked from last night's episode was when the paramedic was speaking to Buffy and they weren't showing his chest. That was a great way of depicting how the Buffster was hearing what he was saying yet staring off into space and not focusing on anything. Just thought I'd mention that."

Just wanted to say this episode was incredible. It passed in a flash. Some of SMG's best acting ever. Her expressions were perfect. Interesting there was no music actually made the show more real. Couple notes....did anyone get the idea Tara is something more than we're being let on to believe? There were a couple key cutaways of her last night that led you to think something was up just because the camera stayed on her so long. Did anyone else think it odd that Buffy had so much trouble with the vamp in the morgue? Was it just because she's so emotionally drained or is it some kind of loss of power? And for a minute there I thought Dawn as the key might be able to bring Joyce back but I guess not. Also wondering if Angel will be told about Joyce and if this means Buffy's dad will show up. Sorry that's a lot of questions! This episode was amazing.

Great acting and direction in this episode. the lack of music in most of the show was a great effect it suspended disbelief added on to the over all effect and mood of the episode. Alot of camera shots lingered on Tara wich makes me think theres something more to her charactoer then is being shown. Anya's reaction to Joyce's death was interesting because she was just beggining to get a good handle on the whole humanity thing when the concept of death pulled the rug right out from under her. THough slightly on the depressing side i enjoyed this episode greatly and i cant wait to see what happens on the next episode.

" I have to say the acting on this episode was the best I have seen in a very long time.It hit me hard because it brought back memories of my own mothers' death 5 years ago.I cried throughout the whole show. It showed all the real feelings of losing a loved one..the helplessness denial anger guilt emptiness and pain.
There were a few comments made that I have to question though one being when Dawn was talking to her classmate about Kirsty:"If I could make her head explode using only the power of my mind that's what I'd be doing right now" Wasn't it around the time Dawn arrived that Joyce started being sick then got the tumor?
When Buffy is talking to the doctor: Buffy:"Are you sure there wasn't alot of pain?"
Doctor:"Absolutly (dubbed over)I have to lie to make you feel better" Now we know that isn't what he said does this mean Buffy is losing it?
The scene where Buffy and Tara are talking in the hospital
Buffy:"was it sudden?"
Tara:"No...Yes..it's always sudden" Is Tara hiding something?
The pattern after Buffy covered her vomit and the music played when they showed a close up..(kinda looked like an angel to me)

Maybe I'm reading to much into these scenes but I'm beginning to wonder what Tara is hiding. She can't be a demon that was proved by Spike in "Family"..he felt pain too and his reaction was too fast to have been lying about it.There was no reason for anyone to lie here but yet I get the feeling her own mothers' death was not natural...possibly slow and painful? I'm also questioning Dawn..is "the key" a parasitic entity? ( compair to Glory..who is a mind parasite)
"

Did anybody else notice that Anya found Willows blue sweater behind the cushion on the chair. It seemed like forshadowing to me or i might just read into thingd to much. Also one more quiry do you think Oz might come back because of Joyce's death.

"I don't think there's anything ominous about Tara's talking about her mother's death. "No yes it's always sudden."

We knew my Mom was going to die 2 months before she did. Even though my second thought was "Thank God she's out of pain." My first was "NO! She can't die!" You never stop hoping for the miracle. Tara's line was so true for me.

This episode was so well done. Tara may end up being more than an average human hey this is the Hellmouth but she's pretty darn powerful as a regular girl."

"
Doctor:"Absolutely (dubbed over)I have to lie to make you feel better" Now we know that isn't what he said does this mean Buffy is losing it?

No it was just put in to symbolize what goes through ones mind when listening to a doctor.

I thought it was very appropriately and skillfully done."

"I still think there's something special about Tara. It was proved she's not a demon but there must be something going on with the women of her family; some sort of "gift" or power?"

Oops didn't mean to send the same message twice!

Tara isn't a demon or otherwise inhuman. She is just a very powerful human witch. She has more potential than Willow but Willow pushes harder. Tara is in harmony (well more so than the others). She is a centering figure. Yin to the Yang and all that. Out of the gang she is the one who has never used violence (though she did cast a spell on them once during extream disharmony in her life). She is more worldly in a queit way similar to Oz. Thank god they finally let them (Willow and Tara)kiss. Did anyone else think Xander was a bit chilly with Anya in this epi?

I know it will get back to Angel that Joyce is dead. Wes and Giles seemed to be keeping in touch for a while. And it is presumable that the WC is watching them both. The new and improved Angel will have to go to the funeral or at least show up at night. A nice touch would be to have him go to the grave with flowers without making a big deal about being seen. Angel can be vain about his gestures. But Cordy will want to go too. She is also new and improved. I am not sure Wesley ever met Joyce. It would be great to have the whole cast back Oz included. I wonder if anyone will tell Faith?

OK so what exactly is a ìsoulî in the Buffyverse? My theory is that a ìsoulî is the ability to choose between good and evil. Vampires do not have this choiceóthey are evil because they are vampires (and therefore have no souls). They do not choose to be evilósince there is no desire to do good it is really not a choice. Every character that has been explicitly stated as not having a soul has been evil although not every evil character lacks a soul. It is the desire to do good as well as the desire to do evil that makes humans human. So when a person becomes a vampire and loses their soul what they are really losing is the desire to do good and therefore the internal struggle between good and evil which defines humanity. I wonder what would happen if the proverbial devil were knocked off the shoulder instead of the angel.

I wonder if the ìpowers of goodîóthose creatures with no desire to do evil (angels I guess) have souls. I believe in the traditional Jeudo-Christian beliefs the answer is no. (I wonder why we never see these creaturesóI guess evil is more interesting or maybe evil is just associated more with the material world.)

"Ever since "Amends" I've been wanting to see the "First Good." It's a Ying Yang thing."

"In last night's Buffy definitely a three hanky ep something happened that made me wonder. Dawn was in the ladies room at school and was crying about having been called a freak by the school snot; while talking to a friend she said that if she could by simple brain power make the offending girl's head explode she would. We don't really know when in relation to Joyce's death she said that but isn't that pretty much what happened to Joyce her head exploded? Could Dawn's desire to use her power and her inability to focus it either because of her physicality or her inexperience have caused her mother's death? If not mightn't she feel guilty wondering if her stray thought could have?

That brings up another question. Is it possible although I hate to think it that Dawn could turn out to be The Big Bad of the season. Why to the knights of whatever want to kill her? Do they know something we don't? I hope that isn't true because I think Dawn is darling and MT is a extremely good actress. I'd prefer to see her remain as Buffy's sister.

But that might not work if Buffy and I fear this too takes a header into the dark end of the pool. She's done some morally questionable things lately and Joyce's death--remember Spike called Joyce Buffy's anchor or some such--could push Buffy over into darkness or make the death wish Spike said eventually came to slayers a reality. Or she could just go slumming with Spike which would be much more fun.

I read in several reviews that "The Body" was not an arc episode. Does anyone here think that the series just stopped so Joyce could die and then will restart in two weeks? I think we will find once we have more information that this was a pivotal arc episode.

Also I thought the ideas I've read on one BB or another that both Anya and Tara are useless particularly Tara were laid to rest in "The Body." Each had a serious part to play in the proceedings. Anya and Tara each in her own way give different perspectives on everything than those of the rest of the SG does. Tara is usually warm and supportive particularly of Willow and is sometimes the vehicle the writers use to provide insight into what is going on the Quasimodo reference and the idea that Glory could be pre-history. Anya and I thought AC's performance was really good last night brings the perspective of a more or less innocent to the story. She can ask questions that no one else can reasonably ask and if she looks foolish that's alright because she truly doesn't know or understand.

"

I also found it interesting that this is the episode Joss chose for us to finally see Willow and Tara kiss each other on the lips. It was a kiss of comfort one only your lover can give you but not meant to be seen in an explicitly erotic way.

"In regards to your first point about Dawn's wish that that girl's head would explode...I don't think Dawn caused Joyce's annurism (sp?). It seems to me that the point of that scene was just irony. It shows how we say things like that all that time without consequence and yet those kinds of things can happen.

I really don't think Dawn will turn out to be our Big Bad for the year. Dawn is just a key someone else has to use that key to perpetrate good or evil. It's out of Dawn's hands because I don't think Dawn on her own has any useable powers someone has to "activate" her ie "turn the key"

The monk said something like "That's all she is now *just* human." As a human Dawn has no more powers than Xander or Giles she'd have to be converted back into a ball of energy in order to have power.

Also in regards to the Knights to the Bizantium (or whatever they're called) I think they just want to destroy the key because it is a dangerous thing to have in the world.

It's similar to the "Dark of Night" episode of Angel where Angel destroys the ring that allows vampires to walk in the daylight and live through stakings. Angel destroys the ring not because its a bad thing but because it can be bad in the wrong hands. At that time he didn't want Spike to get it back and he probably didn't trust himself with it in case he reverted back to Angelus. I sense the Knights feel the same about the key better that it didn't exist than that it someday falls into the wrong hands."

I'm not so sure that Dawn doesn't have any power. It's true that the monks created a human form to contain her but are they really so powerful that they could completely supress such a being? I think we'll find out for sure in the next new episode of Buffy. If Dawn has power she'll use it when she touches the body of her mother.

I don't believe Dawn had anything to do with Joyce's death. I really believe it was as a result of Natural Causes.

Hey even in Sunnydale people get sick.

That doesn't mean though that Dawn won't blame herself.

Dawn doesn't have any superpowers now. Will she get some? Eventially I think Joss is setting her up to replace Buffy (will he keep the name for the show?). If and when that time comes Dawn is going to have to be very careful or else she will become another Carrie.

"Okay the lines between the Buffyverse and the Realverse have officially been blurred.

Did everyone else notice the license plate on Lindsey's truck last night? Oklahoma - presumably where Lindsey is from and where Christian Kane really is from. I'm willing to bet that was on purpose. And of course there is the whole "redneck therapy" thing happening (as explained in another thread below). (Not that I'm saying CK is a redneck but the interviews I've seen with him he's definately not a big-city boy - he drives a pickup with monster tires.)

I loved it that here was smooth polished Lindsey who gets a big hurtin' on because "his woman" has slept with another man. So he digs his stompin' boots out of the back of the closet puts on his plaid flannel shirt grabs his sledgehammer (although why he needs one of those in L.A. is beyond me) and takes off in his pickup truck (OK a cool vintage truck) to find Angel and beat the crap out of him. And Lindsey is radiating so many hate and violence vibes that even a whole tribe of demons who want to kill Angel leave the scene when Lindsey shows up. That whole bit where Lindsey is circling Angel with his truck brought up memories of movies like "Macon County Line " "Deliverance " etc.

Interesting that not only does Angel pretty much let Lindsey beat the crap out of him but doesn't ever tell him what he wants to hear about Darla. Although I'm not sure which is worse for Lindsey: hearing explicitly what Darla and Angel did or letting his imagination conjure up what happened.

Lindsey has let this whole Darla thing get way too personal. It is no longer about Wolfram & Hart and whatever their plans agendas or schemes are. This is about "his woman " despite the fact that Darla does not think about Lindsey in a similar manner. I'm not sure which upset Lindsey more: finding out that Darla and Angel were intimate or finally realizing that Darla was just using him for her own agenda.

Will Lindsey try to find Darla? Yes I think so. Even after everything that has happened Lindsey is too wrapped around the axle about Darla to give her up that easily. Will this affect his working relationship with Lilah and the rest of W&H? Most likely. I think Lindsey will do anything to "save" Darla even if he can't have her for himself. Even if this means going against what W&H have in mind.

Will Lindsey be reprimanded for trying to kill Angel with pickup and sledgehammer?? Only if the big boys find out! And I think on some level Lindsey doesn't care if they find out. He's tottering on the edge of going into full self-destruct mode."

"purplegrrl
Wrapped around the axle?

I agree Lindsey has been over the edge about Darla for some time and is ready to self-destruct. In fact he may already have gone too far for W&H to tolerate him any longer. Oh and I don't remember seeing Darla do anything to give Lindsey very much encouragement.

Darla may be a much more interesting character now. Regarding the ongoing debate about what vampires feel: Darla was hurting big time. I can't believe that she was just disappointed or frustrated because she didn't bring Angel over. Also didn't Julie Benz do an excellent job as she did in the episode when Angel was ready to give his life for her (I forgot the name of the ep)?

Angel did say I think that there was "no REDEMPTION." I capitalized it because I think he meant that there was no big redemptive act (think the twelve labors of Hercules)he could perform that would mean he was redeemed. His redemption must come a day at a time a tiny act at a time. It's a doctrine of redemption through good works that most Christian churches wouldn't agree with although some may believe good works are part of living a good life after redemption. The theological concepts of the buffyverse and those held by many in our 'verse are substantially different even though the actions that are a result of them may be similar.
"

Wrapped around the axle -
overwrought; obsessed to the point of distraction; nothing else has any real meaning in one's life

Lindsey is like Spike in one respect: the woman he loves/is obsessed with does not necessarily need to reciprocate his feelings for his feelings for her to continue. The fact that Darla did not kill Lindsey in the wine cellar with the other lawyers is encouragement enough for him. Knowing Darla's background Lindsey probably thought that by helping her and asking for nothing in return that she would see him in a different light as a man who could be a companion not a user. I think Darla may have been beginning to see him that way. But her experience with Angel put her back in her old mindset: all men are users and so I might as well use them. Unfortunately it seems that Lindsey's feelings for Darla ran deeper than he was willing to admit even to himself.

"I don't think that Angel is thinking about redemption at all anymore - whether one day at a time or in one big act. He was very much giving the existentialist existance precedes essence argument.

The belief that good acts can earn our way into heaven is known as Pelagianism. It was named after an Irish monk who taught salvation by good works. I personally see this as a very naive belief for reasons I've explained before.

I think that Angel has reached a more mature perspective but I still don't think he has gone far enough. Sartre's existentialism is just a way of putting a brave face on nihilism as far as I am concerned. Buddhist emptiness is actually a lot more positive than an existential void. Still I think that Angel may be heading in the right direction. Let me try to explain.

At the beginning of the season Angel believed that he could earn his way to redemption (Pelagianism) then he realized he would have to do things one day at a time so it was Pelagianism on a more relaxed schedule. Still as he admitted last night he was still looking for the grandiouse act by which he could redeem himself by redeeming another when he offered his life for Darla's. The 13th century Buddhist Shinran's insight that if we can not generate enough merit to save ourselves how can we presume to save another might be applicable here. From that point on Angel became more and more focused on vengeance rather than redemption. The unknown Christian mystical writer of the Cloud of Unknowing pointed out that one who dwells on the evils of others has become a contemplative of Satan. That would kind of describe Angel's desire to charge into hell and subsequent despair. As Nietzche said if we gaze into the void the void will gaze back at us (or something to that effect). Now it seems that Angel has lost faith in everything except simple goodness on the practical local scale. Now that is the position many thoughtful mature adults are in. It is hard to believe that there is some kind of Overall Intelligent Compassionate Coordinator to all of this. In Buffy there are TPTB but they tend to be remote and their motives rather opaque so while Angel (unlike most of us) knows that there is such a thing as TPTB he has certainly not learned to trust them or to view them as the OICC (see above). Still Angel's egotism is slipping. Now he can easily revert due to the inherent instability of his current view. Sartre couldn't maintain the existential void either - if all meaning is just self-constructed and arbitrary then it is ultimately unsatisfying. I think that for that reason he eventually copped out and became a Marxist. Anyhow St. Augistine said "Our hearts are restless until they rest in thee." A very profound statement I think. There is something about the human condition that is only satisfied by something that transcends that condition and mystics all over the world have testified to a living experience of that - but first one must be open to it. First one must empty the tea cup of one's own presumption and egocentricity (no matter how well intentioned). I think that Angel has finally emptied his tea cup.

It also puts me in mind of Milarepa the Tibetan yogi who learned black magick in his youth to avenge his mother by killing his relatives. Milarepa awakened to the immensity of his crime and realized that he could only escape hell by attaining enlightenment. He finally found an enlightened teacher named Marpa who set him to work building towers but every time he built one Marpa would tell him it was no good and force him to tear it down and start over. Marpa continually humiliated Milarepa and refused to teach him only Marpa's wife showed Milarepa any sympathy. Milarepa even tried to run away but then realized he had no choice but to redeem himself no matter how hard it was so that he could learn the teachings from Marpa and so he returned. Only Marpa's wife knew that Marpa actually cried at night over concern for Milarepa. Marpa knew that he had to impose these tasks and give no thanks or reward so that Milarepa could expiate his offences and lose his egocentricity. In the end Milarepa did breakthrough his selfish striving to earn awakening only for himself and he did attain enlightenment and became the founder of the Kagyu Order of Tibetan Buddhism. I think that in some ways Angel is following this path. He has run away after his tower was torn down (his attempt to save Darla) and how he has returned. But his tasks must resume and he has not awakened yet.

Sorry for the rant but things just started to flow and so I decided to just let it all spill out. Thanks for indulging me."

Angel is wrong about his existence not meaning anything. Here his existentialism was crushed. Now he is on the road to redemption by helping those in the night who can't help themselves. What I see in him is he has come to peace with who he is. He is living in the here and now and I believe this will get him to his place in the end. Humanity.

"I think that Angel has reached a more mature perspective but I still don't think he has gone far enough. Sartre's existentialism is just a way of putting a brave face on nihilism as far as I am concerned.

I was thinking more of Camus and the "Myth of Sisyphus" when Angel made his final speech. The struggle is important even if the outcome is certainly failure."

Oh yikes! Christian Kane is from Oklahoma?! I'm from Oklahoma and that sheds such a light on it. I've been threatened by guys just like last night's Lindsey-as-redneck. ;)

So what's up with Angel's Thank you note that he leaves on Lindsey's battered truck. Is he just trying make Lindsey mad or does he mean it?

Is this part of the new Angel (we need a new name for him since he's not Noir Angel anymore.) Does Angel leave the note because he's planning to do good random acts of kindness for everyone now even nasty Wolfram and Hart Lawyers.

From this episode we're supposed to believe that Angel has changed that he's out of his obsession with W&H. If he's really done screwing with them would he leave the note just to piss Lindsey off? Why return the truck at all?

I think Angel was just being spiteful with the thank you note. He may have had an epiphany but the demon is still there. Did anyone notice for instance that after he beat Lindsey up he reverted to his Irish brogue - a sign that usually means the demon is aroused and has been given a little free rein.

Ah. Now I know why they were calling him 'Good Angelus' on another board (or is it Good Liam?)! (I haven't seen the episode yet). Seems like Angel's taking the fake swami's advice about not denying the demon (or the human) part of himself. Seeing Angel with a more spirited and playful attitude will certainly be... refreshing.

Did anyone notice for instance that after he beat Lindsey up he reverted to his Irish brogue

You know I thought I heard him speak with the accent there but I thought I was just imagining things. I didn't start watching BtVS until after Angel got his soul back (end of season 3) so I was not familiar with any significance of him reverting to his old brogue.

"There is no significance to it that pre season-3 people are more aware of. We saw only one "historical" episode you didn't becoming pt 1.

I think the significance is two-fold:

(1) embracing the more fun parts of Liam his original human self who was Irish and
(2) accepting the demon who had the accent for the longest time. By the time Angel got his soul back the first time 1898 he'd lost most of his accent. Angel souled vampire was always the only "personality" until Angelus' return in 1998 that spoke without an Irish accent.

So he's integrating himself a little with that Irish lilt. Or maybe just showing his own roots when Lindsey decided to revert *g*"

I didn't take Angel's thank-you note as being spiteful. It may not have been a genuine heartfelt thanks but I think it was real. Angel was trying to behave in a way that showed he was once more connecting with humans. Yes Angel beat up Lindsey (even if Lindsey did start it) broke his artificial hand and took his truck. But instead of wrecking the truck or just abandoning it somewhere Angel brought it back to where Lindsey could find it and left a thank-you note. Angel was just trying to follow his epiphany.

----------
New name for Angel:
Since he is no longer NoirAngel...
PostNoirAngel?
RevisionistAngel?
AngelRedux?

Funny Angel = Funny Valentine

"Personally I like AngelRedux!!

But NeoAngel could work - not just because of its implied reference to "The Matrix " but in the sense of reverting to a previous form or expanding on a previous form like Neoclassical."

"I loved it that here was smooth polished Lindsey who gets a big hurtin' on because his woman" has slept with another man. So he digs his stompin' boots out of the back of the closet puts on his plaid flannel shirt grabs his sledgehammer (although why he needs one of those in L.A. is beyond me) and takes off in his pickup truck (OK a cool vintage truck) to find Angel..."

I was wondering about why Lindsey would have a an old truck and clothing that is atypical for a big city lawyer. I think that the truck and clothing serves as a reminder to Lindsey about where he came from. He seemed to be ashamed of his past when he spoke to Angel about his father and their living conditions. My guess is that this truck is the one Lindsey took with him when he set off for college in the big city and he has kept it not for nostalgia but to remind himself how far he has "risen" above his roots. I think the reason he took the truck and dressed as he did was so that no one would connect his attack with the new Lindsey i.e. if there had been witnesses they would not be looking for the attacker at W&H."

I also think that one of the reasons that he kept his truck is that it was something special to him. I know it wasn't just the farm toy or the beater. When he hits Angel we see him use the ratchet shifter to back up. I'm a performance enthusiast and can tell you that the B&M shifter he had is a real neat piece of engineering that doesn't just happen into old trucks. Couple that with the fact that we get a shot of it and I think it means something. It could just be a stunt truck but they had such a planned shot of the shifter that it meant something to me. That truck had some power when he was chasing Angel you could see that he had trouble keeping the tires from spinning and they are some nice wide tires. All this adds up to someoneís toy and not just a memento of past difficulties. Plus I really like the smoke show.

I also think that one of the reasons that he kept his truck is that it was something special to him... When he hits Angel we see him use the ratchet shifter to back up. I'm a performance enthusiast and can tell you that the B&M shifter he had is a real neat piece of engineering that doesn't just happen into old trucks. Couple that with the fact that we get a shot of it and I think it means something... All this adds up to someoneís toy and not just a momento of past difficulties.

If you're right I wonder how Lindsey will react to Angel trashing his truck :)

But I believe that Angel was not the only person in this episode to have had an epiphany -- it seems to me that Kate also did and it is possible that the fight with Angel was a watershed event for Lindsey. He had lost his connection to his past -- intentionally burying his past. His speech to Angel about his straitened financial conditions growing up suggested to me that he was ashamed of his roots. Personally I believe that when he landed the position in W&H the first thing he did was buy a flashy sports car -- as a symbol of his success -- then put the truck in a garage (we haven't seen it before now). I agree that the truck must have had meaning for him somewhere deep down inside his soul otherwise he would not have kept it. To me Lindsey's actions in this episode are a foreshadowing that he is not totally lost -- there is a chance he will be able to reconnect with his former small-town values (his father seemed to be a decent man) and escape W&H with his soul intact. I do not believe that they had Lindsey in costume merely to offend sensitive viewers -- everything happens for a reason in the Buffyverse.

To me Lindsey's actions in this episode are a foreshadowing that he is not totally lost -- there is a chance he will be able to reconnect with his former small-town values (his father seemed to be a decent man) and escape W&H with his soul intact.

His father most likely beat his mother. After all isn't that what rednecks do?

That is what I learned from television.

"Giving the writers an out Malandanza?

I sincerely hope they take it.

But concerning the way they have protrayed rural people in the past I doubt it.

Live with your illusions if you must Malandanza. But the truth is they were attacking the "small-town values" you so cherish.

"-- everything happens for a reason in the Buffyverse. "

That is correct but unfortunately it seems that the reason isn't always noble or correct.

"

Looking back on past episodes I doubt they were trying to protray Rural America in a favorable light.

Good try Malandanza.

I agree with Ben/Glory. I hope the writers turn direction and use your perspective. I don't watch this show for ugly sterotypes. And I thought them better than that.

I was wondering about why Lindsey would have a an old truck and clothing that is atypical for a big city lawyer. I think that the truck and clothing serves as a reminder to Lindsey about where he came from.

No it was so they could protray him a the sterotypical white trash wife beating white rural male redneck.

Lindsey never would have worn those clothes or driven that truck. Just shows how far the writers went to promote a negative racial stereotype. Promoting hatred against white rural males was more important to them than character consistancy.

Ben/Glory
I'm so glad that you are clairvoyant enough to know what is going on in the minds of the creator and/or writers of this show. Are these visions painful for you like Cordelia's? However it must be difficult to always know what others are thinking. Does this ability make it difficult for you to maintain a sense of yourself what with all those other thoughts crowding in on you? On the other hand it would be useful (at least on this board) to be able to see past all the foreshadowing and red herrings to the underlying themes and messages of the show.

"I thought The Body was extremely powerful. My overriding thought watching this episode was how respectful it was to the show its characters and its history. I think the choice to focus exclusively on Buffy her family the SG (and their significant others) and to eliminate the supernatural elements Spike Glory (and even an Angel crossover) was so fundamentally right. BtVS honored itself by taking the time to makr the passing of Joyce Summers (Buffy's last real link to her pre-slayer life).

The only quibble I might have is the slaying scene in the morgue; I might have liked to see the show without any slayerlike elements although watching Buffy attempt to find some modicum of strength to fight off the vamp was wrenching to say the least.

My reaction to time during the episode really shocked me. Although the show felt like it had very little "plot" compared to other episodes (it seemed to have about 1/2 the content) at the same time I was so wrapped up that 40 minutes passed before I realized what was happening.

I'm not sure what I learned about the Buffyverse watching this episode and I'm not sure how it advanced this season's storyline but it shook me that's for sure.

The most powerful part to me was SMG's scenes in the early going. I felt sick to my stomach watching her. (Note to myself: call Mom tonight and tell her you love her.) But what pulled a tear out of me was Anya's reactions. She reminded me of the small child in everyone that sobs out "why?" and cannot be comforted."

I must agree this episode was excellent. Throught out there was a feeling of surrealism and it really mimicked how it feels to lose someone. The camera angles and music (or lack of) were perfect. Was kinda like a hybrid of Hush and Restless only better. After watching I felt all the feelings the characters felt; disbelief/grief that Joyce was gone. For a television show to be that powerful really says something about the quality.

"I've only posted here a few times I mainly lurk -- but this episode effected me so greatly that I felt the need to "delurk" again. I think this is the most powerful television episode I've ever watched. It was so emotionally elemental and wrenching. Not to go into details but I've lost several close family members in the last few years and I know that the depiction of grief and denial that Joss created was absolutely truthful to me especially Anya's and Willow's reactions. So overwhelming.

I'm still overwhelmed so I apologize if I don't make much sense. I just wanted to give my own farewell to Joyce. Joss did such a wonderful job as well as the cast. All I can say is 'WOW.'

I haven't cried so much in ages. This episode was a beautiful and moving tribute to Joyce.

As my own personal footnote I'd like to add one of my favorite Joyce quotes from Buffy:

"I mean have you tried not being a slayer?"
Becoming II

It was just so heartwrenching and motherly.

O.K. so this post has rambled on more than I intended but I noticed a definite Tara "vibe" happening tonight.

The last 3 episodes that Joss has written and directed (to my knowledge) have been 'Restless' 'Family' and 'The Body'. Tara plays a significant roll in all of these. Does anyone have any theories? She appears in 'Restless' and 'The Body' to play a very pivotal roll of comfort and guidance.

Once again I apologize for my ramble. I can only hold up the genuis of Joss in my defense:)

Goodbye Joyce I'll miss you as will many others.

Herman"

In a different universe
There was no curse

In a different universe
We said goodbye

In a different universe
There was a cure

In a different universe
I am just a girl

In a different universe
I donít know that I vomit
when I cry too hard

In a different universe
All of the bad things
are still waiting to happen

Thanks for posting your poem Iarlais I thought it was very understated and moving.

Alane

"My reaction to time during the episode really shocked me. Although the show felt like it had very little plot" compared to other episodes (it seemed to have about 1/2 the content) at the same time I was so wrapped up that 40 minutes passed before I realized what was happening."

I agree absolutely -- especially with the time loss. When the closing "Grrr...arghh" came on I had to check my clock -- I thought only half an hour had passed. I was expecting a bad episode -- I cannot ever recall having seen a TV death portrayed well. This episode was amazing."

"I've been an avid reader of the posts on this board - and I'm usually content in reading the extremely intelligent posts I read on this board - but "The Body" compelled me to write this.

I have never been so moved watching both TV and BtVS. I was expecting an intense episode - but not something so *real*.

I was moved by everyone's reactions - be it Anya's struggle to understand grief to Xander's desire to want to blame supernatural forces to Buffy's surreal (but oh so realistic) reaction to Joyce's death.

I too have lost a parent - and the sense of being in a void - the sense of *nothingness* - was conveyed powerfully in last night's episode. There were times I came very near to tears - particularly when Buffy referred to Joyce as "the body" Dawn's grief and Anya and Willow's mutual but diverse reactions to Joyce's passing.

Everyone's reactions remained true to their basic nature and honored Joyce's as a character.

I agree with everyone's opinion - this show surpasses "Hush" in terms of creative depth and deserves an Emmy nomination.

This truly has been a turning point for the show."

"I agree about the Emmy. If ever a t.v. show merited an Emmy then B:tVS has with this one episode alone. I agree with what everyone else has said so far - the respectful nature of the show the camera angles lack of music surreal "if only" sequences Anya as the confused child the contrast between Dawn's high school trauma and the real trauma of losing her mother Willow's clothing hysteria Xander's visceral acting out Giles as the father-figure and so much more. I don't think it could have been done much better. I was very moved. I get teary just thinking about the episode.

A couple of other things I noted - I was amzed once again at how strong and supportive Tara was. She is truly a character where still waters run deep. She is usually so quiet...

I appreciated the moments of incongruity and humor - Anya finding Willow's blue sweater the parking ticket the overdone junk food trip the misdirection with Dawn crying in the bathroom. It was the little things like that which make the show seems so much more real than other t.v. dramas. Life is always full of incongruous and absurd details like that.

The vampire slaying at the end did kind of bug me. It first struck me as a concession to those who might tune in expecting a supernatural action drama - but then I realized it was something else as well. The look on Buffy and Dawn's face as they saw "the body" showed that even after fighting a vampire in a morgue it is still scarier to have to confront the death of a loved one. In that sense the whole scene dramatized that real life is actually scarier than the Buffyverse.

Anyway I could just go on but I'll stop here. "

At the time of this posting it has been less than 24 hours since the ep aired and I'm still stuck with nothing to say about it. Like when Anya asked Xander what they were expected to do before they went into Willow's dorm room and he couldn't find the words to say what they should do. Now I did like Hush. It takes a lot of acting prowess to convey emotions and thoughts and feelings without being able to create sounds but this ep. the entire hour it was on I was like blank faced and just sat there. It was so freaky. The no score during the entire thing the conveyence of real time the varying depths of emotions the characters went through the very few camera shots where the camera moved back and forth slightly that gave the viewer the sense that they were actually there with them ... again I say freaky. I have seen just about every single episode of both Buffy and Angel and while this ep creeped me out it is now my all time favorite. RIP Joyce. You will be missed by your loved lones and the viewers of this show especially me.

"I think there was a reason for the vampire slayage in the morgue. It's summed up in the title of the episode. "The Body". Buffy kills vampires they turn to dust--we watched this.

The difference between being undead and "dead dead" is made evident in that morgue room.

The vampire rises with its shroud on its face Joyce's is ripped off her body by the struggle.

The vampire stalks Dawn. Joyce lies still and unmoving.

The vampire fights for its un-life against the slayer and is turned into dust. Joyce's body just lies there.

There is no Joyce there anymore. It's just a dead body. And I think that's the most chilling part of the episode."

Bravo Masquerade! Buffy's final words to Dawn reinforce the point. but DAMN that was a hard ep to watch--too many memories!

I think the vampire in the morgue is also there to:

1. remind Buffy that her duty carries on despite personal turmoil

2. remind Dawn that Mom isn't there to protect her anymore. I know Joyce wasn't the one who fends off evil demons for Dawn but it still brings home the message that Mom isn't there for her anymore.

Overall a great episode executed wonderfully by the cast and crew.

Thank you Masquerade. I knew that slaying in the morgue felt right but I couldn't put it into words. You just very elequently did it for me.

You're right Masquerade. I've had a ringside seat to alot of death either as the one reacting to it or the one involved in giving the family the bad news. Life goes into a sort of slow motion for the family where each reaction is individual to the person. The vampire had to be there as it shows that while Buffy shoudn't have had to deal with that type of situation there are no breaks for her.
Also note the difference in reactions from the 911 operator the Ambulance attendants and the doctor. They show a detachement typical for their proffession. If they reacted to every death or stressful situation with emotion they would either be fired or end up in a psych ward. They have to develop a method of detaching from the reality of the situations of their job. If they don't they don't last long.
There was no right way or wrong way to react to the death of Joyce there was just the personal way. You can't criticise anyone if they seemed off or without compassion as some people just hit the pause button of emotion when faced with death. The show was well done in every perspective. The naked vamp symbolised the naked truth of Buffys calling. She will never get a break from it even to fully grieve her mother.

"To add just a little levity to what has been for most of us an incredibly moving experience my reactions during the show:

Act 1 break: "Wow this makes last week's Angle look like a picnic!"

Act 2 break:(tears streming down my face) "This isn't going to get any lighter is it?"

Act 3 break :(more tears) "Whew!" Just that "Whew!"

Closing credits: Moments or was it hours of silence finally broken when someone else in the room said "If that doesn't get this show an Emmy nothing will." More silence. "I sure hope Angel is funny."

And it was. Yes there was a lot of serious there what with the epiphany and all but there was lots of funny right down to Lindsey's pick up s--- kickers and wife beater T-shirt. Thank goodness.

More serious post tommorrow I hope. "

Wife beater T-shirt?? I don't want to be rude but where could you possibly come up with that?

I apologize for snapping Marya. You were just trying to lighten the mood.

Lindsey obviously needed to go back to his roots in order to confront Angel but it should not be assumed that he or anyone else who dresses that way also beats women.

I've heard that expression a lot in reference to a particular kind of tank top.

"Yeah but when is a name "just a name". Every time someone casually says "and his wife-beater tank top" I cringe. Especially when they're talking about how cute Angel looked in an episode. Sure he looked good in that tank-top but the casual use of that expression just grates."

"Actually I ususally feel the same Elizabeth. But see my "No offense taken" post to Rendyl

I thought twice about using that phrase but I don't really think "Stanley Kowalski" t-shirt really sounds any less offensive. "

Redneck white trash we know what you were saying.

You hate rural people. Especially if they are poor and have an accent and come from south of the Mason-Dixon line.

That kind of racial slur is just as bad as the kinds thrown at other racial groups.

You are a racist.

No you were coming close to a racial slur.

We all know the stereotype you were aiming at!

"This may seem off topic at first but bear with me :)

When I was in college I took an upper level statistics course (I have a Math degree). My Professor talked about an old study showing the correlation between child abuse and child abusers -- and told us about some commercials (which I vaguely recalled from my youth) saying "People that abuse their children have children that abuse their children" that were based on this study. She further said that these commercials invoked a panicked response from parents who had been abused as children now worried that they might be compelled to abuse their own children and repeat the cycle. The problem was that the study HADN'T shown that abused children were more likely to abuse their own children -- it had shown that if a person abused his children he was more likely to have been abused as child himself. It was meant to predict the future but the past.

In the same manner calling a T-shirt a "wife-beater" is not a reference the wearer being more likely to be a violent misogynist; rather it is a recognition that the stereotypical wife-beating males that we see on TV and in movies typically wears this type of T-shirt. The term in no way implies that the wearer is violent undereducated Southern etc. It is a term applied equally to T-shirts everywhere in our country regardless of which side of the Mississippi or Mason-Dixon line they reside. It is a comment about a style of T-shirt -- the only things that should be offended by the remark are other T-shirts.

Before anyone flames me for my insensitivity let me that I come from a long line of rednecks (people who actually work for a living -- although none of them beat their wives:) and I still have the "farmer's tan" to prove it. I see my heritage as a source of pride rather than shame (I have vivid memories about digging ditches in the hot Arizona sun for minimum wage -- back when it was $3.35 an hour). As such I am permitted (by the rules of our society) to say anything I please about people of my own socioeconomic background.

I recently reread "Fahrenheit 451" and fascinated that this book about book burning envisioned a future where books were censored not by the government but by the free market -- worried about offending any minority group books were routinely purged of any content that might offend whether the minority be religious cultural ethnic or any other division. So much had to be purged that the content that was left was trivial and insipid -- not even worth the effort of burning. "

"So if I said of some African American who is wearing a ski cap and other sterotypical 'rap type' clothing on that he had his "liquor store robbing" clothes on. That would be ok because I am commenting on the clothes and not the person. Not saying the the person is a liquor store robber just that is the sterotypical outfit that liquor store robbers wear.

It would still be a racial slur just like the term "redneck" is. I find that term very very offensive and I grew up in the city.

If Mayra would have used slurs against any other group of people Native Americans African Americans Asians I doubt you would be so kind to her. In fact I am sure you would be among those attacking her most strongly (as would I).

But some how it is ok to attack white poor rural males in this society? That's right?

PC for everyone but yourself. That is just hypocritical crap!"

"I realize that I should just ignore you but the temptation to ridicule your "arguments" is great... and I am no saint...and anyway this post will be gone in a few days when the message board vanishes.

"So if I said of some African American who is wearing a ski cap and other sterotypical 'rap type' clothing on that he had his "liquor store robbing" clothes on. That would be ok because I am commenting on the clothes and not the person. Not saying the the person is a liquor store robber just that is the sterotypical outfit that liquor store robbers wear."

I had thought that the stereotypical artlicle of clothing worn by liquor store robbers was a stocking over the head. Now I understand that one should dress as a rapper to rob liquor stores -- thank you for enlightening me.

"It would still be a racial slur just like the term "redneck" is. I find that term very very offensive and I grew up in the city."

My fellow rednecks do not see the term "redneck" as a slur -- but rather as a badge of distinction. Being a redneck is not just about listening to country music and driving around in your pick-up truck -- people from small rural towns pride themselves on possessing moral values and a sense of community (that is often lost in the big city). If you have ever heard Jeff Foxworthy's stand-up comedy you will know he includes a "you might be a redneck" potion -- that is much funnier when you are actually able to identify with the things he is saying. It is the rednecks (like myself) that find his humor so appealing.

"If Mayra would have used slurs against any other group of people Native Americans African Americans Asians I doubt you would be so kind to her. In fact I am sure you would be among those attacking her most strongly (as would I)."

Marya's "slur" was against a T-shirt! While it is noble of you to undertake the defense of "wife-beater" T-shirts everywhere I do not believe you should compare their plight to that of genuinely oppressed human beings. Incidentally I had never heard the expression "wife-beater" applied to a T-shirt until I moved into the city...

"But some how it is ok to attack white poor rural males in this society? That's right?"

I am a white p