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Buffyless Buffy - Idle Speculation. (Plus - Emmys tomorrow!) -- Darby, 07:49:55 07/17/02 Wed

It's looking more and more like SMG will not be around for S8 of BtVS - her contract only goes through S7, she has said some things intimating that she wouldn't be back, her movie career is on the upswing (hey, you know it was the property, I know it was the property, but that isn't how things seem to work in Hollywood), etc., etc. There is also one compelling piece of evidence, or at least an assertion:

Sarah Michelle Gellar can't come back, or there won't be a season 8.

Think about it: UPN grossly overpaid for Buffy, and is reaping peripheral benefits for it, but they won't make the same deal a second time, it'd make them look like chumps - the side benefits mostly accrued from the original deal, renewal on the same basis will look like tossing money down a hole. No one else will pay close to what ME is making now on the show, but how can they take a cut and continue? They can take a cut if the show is no longer the original show, which it won't be without SMG. With her gone, there is a way to work out less money and keep the franchise, which will be important to UPN.

So what will Buffy the Vampire Slayer be without Buffy? Gotta figure the name'll be different - maybe they'll go for something respectable this time. Does anyone think Michelle Trachtenberg can carry a show? Should the focus shift to Faith? A totally new Slayer (coincidentally named Buffy)? Willow? -Kind of torpedoed that possibility, didn't they?

And on another topic, the Emmy nominations get announced tomorrow morning, so confirm your fawn orders for tonight's sacrifices, and sharpen those knives!
[> FAWN orders? is that a Faith/Dawn Ship? -- neaux(whoisobviouslykidding), 08:42:01 07/17/02 Wed

[> Re: Buffyless Buffy - Idle Speculation. (Plus - Emmys tomorrow!) -- darrenK, 09:15:09 07/17/02 Wed

All good points.

Dawn the Key is a lousy title. Dawn the Vampire Slayer is redundant.

I bet they'll go with something like Slayer . I guess Smallville put Sunnydale out of the question.

dK
[> [> Re: Buffyless Buffy - Idle Speculation. (Plus - Emmys tomorrow!) -- darrenK, 09:17:18 07/17/02 Wed

Just thought of more...

The Vampire Slayers
The Slayer Gang
The Joss Whedon Variety Hour

dK
[> [> [> How about "Hellmouth"? -- Vickie, 10:13:10 07/17/02 Wed

Or is that too rough a title for eight in the evening?
[> [> [> Re: Buffyless Buffy - Idle Speculation. (Plus - Emmys tomorrow!) -- Purple Tulip, 10:16:10 07/17/02 Wed

"The Vampire Slayers" is actually a title that makes perfect sense if they continue the show without SMG. I mean, Dawn isn't a slayer (at least not that we know of), and if the show were to shift from Buffy and her friends fighting evil, to Dawn and her new friends, then there would be no one particular slayer that the show would be focused on. Dawn, of course, would be the star, but she and her friends would all take over the job of slaying; thus, "The Vampire Slayers".

Of course I also like the simplicity of "Slayer", but wasn't that the name of an '80's metal band? And then of course we WOULD need a new slayer, so Dawn of Faith would most likely have to be the star of that one, or a new slayer altogether, and then would it really even be a spin-off? I don't know....
[> [> [> [> one problem w/that -- anom, 11:03:36 07/17/02 Wed

"'The Vampire Slayers' is actually a title that makes perfect sense if they continue the show without SMG....Dawn, of course, would be the star, but she and her friends would all take over the job of slaying; thus, 'The Vampire Slayers.'"

It's been made clear on the show that "The Slayer" has a specific meaning. Dawn & friends might slay vampires, but they're not the ones Chosen to do it. So I don't think it would work to call them "the vampire slayers" (even w/a lower-case "s"), especially as the title of the show.

On the other hand, "The Scoobies" would just be lame....
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffyless Buffy - Idle Speculation. (Plus - Emmys tomorrow!) -- leslie, 11:05:31 07/17/02 Wed

This isn't something that I am particularly chomping at the bit to see, but given that there has been an emphasis all along on the tendency of Slayers to die young, it seems to me that there is a certain amount of meat in the idea of continuing the story past Buffy's (final) death, just to explore the repercussions. How does having known her affect the lives of Xander, Willow, Spike? How do they carry on without her? How does Dawn cope? Not just in the sense of experiencing grief, but in the long run.
[> [> [> [> [> But how do you have Buffyless Dawn? That is the problem. -- John Burwood, 11:29:55 07/17/02 Wed

Impossible to have BTVS without Buffy - true. But also rather hard to have Dawn show without Buffy - unless you fast forward a couple of years to Dawn being 18 & going away to college away from Sunnydale.
To have Dawn the Vampire Slayer/Key/whatever set in Sunnydale you would first have to eliminate Buffy from Sunnydale - not necessarily totally if SMG is open to the odd guest spot.
How? I have come up with 4 options.
!) Kill Buffy for good. Only likely if SMG absolutely insists never again is my guess.
2) Put Buffy in a long coma - like Faith but for how long? Doubtful.
3) Put Buffy in prison as she nearly was in Dead Things - possible but hope not.
4) Put her in a job taking her away from Sunnydale, but what would make her leave Dawn unless forced? Unless she is forced to go work for Riley's Black Ops as an alternative to prison - as per La Femme Nikita? What short of blackmail could make her leave Dawn?
Tis a puzzlement. Any better suggestions?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry - minor spoilers for eps 6.13 & 6.15 in above! -- John Burwood, 12:45:21 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But how do you have Buffyless Dawn? That is the problem. -- Purple Tulip, 13:03:01 07/17/02 Wed

You have a point---how can we have Dawn but no Buffy? Well, if Buffy does in fact die for good this time at the end of season 7, and they continue with just Dawn, then Dawn will have to go stay with someone who could act as her guardian until she's 18. She could move to England to be with Giles and then she could be on "Ripper" if that ever gets off the ground. Or, if Xander, Willow and even Anya are sticking around, she could continue to be in Sunnydale and have her own spin-off there. OR, she could go live with her father in LA and become part of Angel the Series, possibly becoming the love interest for Angel's son (they're about the same age, right? I don't watch the show). Then we would have a tragic and engulfing love story a la Buffy and Angel the next generation.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Trying to imagine Dawn and Connor together... -- Masq, 16:11:39 07/17/02 Wed

Not really getting a mental pic here. Anyone?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Trying to imagine Dawn and Connor together... - - Arethusa, 16:32:17 07/17/02 Wed

Both have parental issues. Both are lethal. (Connor- knives; Dawn-whines). Both are very pretty. Both get into trouble every time they leave the house.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Trying to imagine Dawn and Connor together... - - Wizardman, 21:33:06 07/17/02 Wed

It depends on how it's played. Big sis and daddy never really worked out, but neither of those two have their problems. Not that Dawn or Connor are issue-free, oh no, but they have different problems than their forebears. If they got together (note- will probably never happen) they will either end up more or less permanently together, or we will have a repeat of S3 Buffy's Wesley & Cordelia- lots of attraction, but no real chemistry. I think that they'd work out though- they both have had really screwed up lives, so they can probably relate to each other in ways that they couldn't relate to their parental figures. Also, Dawn could serve to lighten Connor up, and Connor could show Dawn that yet, someone actually HAS had it worse than she (which will do her a world of good- don't get me wrong- I like her very much, but she does rather whine a lot).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> this goes into a .sig file -- skeeve, 08:13:21 07/19/02 Fri

Absent objection, this goes into a .sig file.
Is Arethusa the desired attribution?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sure. But what's a .sig file? -- Arethusa, 11:27:23 07/19/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sure. But what's a .sig file? -- skeeve, 14:10:30 07/19/02 Fri

It's the witty stuff or other stuff that gets appended to e- mail.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cool. I always wanted to be a wit. -- Arethusa, 18:34:26 07/19/02 Fri

Some days I only reach the half-wit stage!
[> [> [> [> Slayer Blood (Spoilers S5 & S6) -- meritaten, 22:45:30 07/17/02 Wed

Here is something I've been wondering about for a while....

Dawn was created out of Buffy. Blood is the key to pretty much everything in Buffyverse. Dawn and Buffy share the same blood, thanks to the monks. That is why Buffy was able to die in her place to close the interdimensonal portal. So, couldn't Dawn be a slayer also? (Buffy didn't know about her own calling until Merrick found her.) Dawn did pretty well for herself once she was allowed to fight.
[> [> [> [> [> Only if slaying is literally in the blood. -- Arethusa, 06:57:01 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> [> Sunnydale RFD -- Cactus Watcher, 21:37:53 07/17/02 Wed

As someone who watched the 'Andy Griffith' show try to soldier on without Andy Griffith, 'All in the Family' try make it without the family, etc, etc, I can say with some certainity that any version of BTVS without SMG is doomed to mediocrity. It isn't just her presence or absence that's important. Joss' contribution to the show is already pretty vague, beyond the eps he may write. I think many of us have our breath held about 'Angel' this coming year. We all knew Buffy was mortal when it all started. Let's have a great 7th season and let BTVS go out a winner.
[> [> [> [> Re: Sunnydale RFD -- Wizardman, 21:47:37 07/17/02 Wed

YES! I don't want Buffy without SMG. Star Trek the Next Generation lasted seven seasons, and as the last episode said, "All good things must come to an end." When Buffy ends, I want it to be with a bang, but most of all, I want it to end well: a little untimely, perhaps, but while still at the top of its game. Not that I'm objecting if SMG signs for S8, though...
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sunnydale RFD -- meritaten, 22:54:03 07/17/02 Wed

I agree. Our best hope is for SMG to return. If not, it is probably best for the show to end on ahigh note.

However, I admit I'd probably keep watching, hoping the show could revive its former glory.
[> w/Buffy wo/SMG -- skeeve, 09:27:08 07/19/02 Fri

Considering Buffy's death rate, she won't have to work at Doublemeat Palace for very long. On her last day at DP, coincidentally the last episode of S7, Buffy doesn't go to heaven or hell, she stays on earth. The last thing we see is Willow staring at Buffy in an Orb of Thessela and muttering something to the effect that she hadn't expected it to happen so soon.

Willow has been spellcasting again (duh). In S8, we discover that Willow has learned at least a little about permission. Willow tells Buffy that she will cancel the spell if Buffy wants her to. Willow offers to go body*- shopping for her, but reminds her that since most live ones are already occupied, she would probably have to share. Buffy knows just where to look: the WC.

Another way is for Buffy to become a title a la Caesar. Without Willow, the Scoobies aren't all that good at vampire slaying. Even with Willow, half of them were getting away. Admittedly this was because their strategy sucked, but since Willow isn't available anymore, that doesn't really matter. Somehow they need another slayer, whether it's Faith or someone else.

Buffy Summers has a legacy, the notions that a slayer can have friends, that a slayer can have assistants, and that the two can overlap. Future slayers might well be titled Buffy. Of course, the original Scoobie gang might want to reserve the title for a slayer who's come back from the dead twice, or saved the world four times. In season 11, whenever the current slayer refers to herself as "the Buffy", someone reminds her that she has only saved the world twice, and hasn't come back from the dead at all.

If the title is broad enough and the death rate high enough, the continuation could be called Buffys, the Vampire Slayers.

* human bodies. This will not be my slayer, the Giles- mobile.
Find the pun, B. -- Arethusa, 11:02:51 07/17/02 Wed

With all the sex and lies on our BtVS videotapes lately, we could use some summer punnin'. Usually when I want plays on words, I just stand on a book and play, but I'm willing to start the action here. Come on, take the punning and run.
[> "And we'll have pun, pun, pun...." ;o) -- Wisewoman, 11:12:33 07/17/02 Wed

Not really fast enough to pun around with you guys (especially anom!) but I'm looking forward to reading the thread!
[> Dare I ask, "what's at stake?" -- neaux, 11:48:15 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> Thank you, neaux! -- Arethusa, 12:05:11 07/17/02 Wed

You've given me an excuse to ask a question that dropped like a plot anvil last time I posted it.

If I took a Doublemeat burger, which is mostly cellulose, let's say from sawdust, and dropped it from a great height onto a vampire's heart, could I stake (if not steak) the vampire, thereby literally killing him with fast food?
[> [> [> That's a DMP skorcher.. We'll all be playing Ketchup after that. =O -- neaux, 12:14:48 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> I was afraid you'd say Lettuce alone. -- Arethusa, 12:30:47 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> My op-onion is... -- Dead Soul, 13:10:51 07/17/02 Wed

Don't really have one, just wanted to say op-onion

Dead Sole
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the Soul food. -- Arethusa, 13:27:28 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> "it's a fishy requisit-t-t-t-t-te" -- Dead Sole, 13:38:42 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> Gives "stake & shake" a hole neaux meaning (NT) -- Fred, the obvious (and abashed) pseudonym, 14:11:35 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Fred! No one's bashing your pseudonym. -- Arethusa, 14:38:23 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: -- aliera, 14:50:15 07/17/02 Wed

The neaux whole in your query is unmistakable; since, from "dust to dust" as a theory is quite unplateable.
Was VampHarmony in "Disharmony" really any worse than Spike from S4 or S5? -- Earl Allison, 12:42:25 07/17/02 Wed

Did VampHarmony get a fair shake in "Disharmony"?

I ask because she behaved very similarly to Spike when Adam offered to remove his chip -- Spike was more than happy to break up the Scooby Gang to make Adam's job of killing Buffy easier.

VampHarmony was more than happy to turn on Cordelia and the AI team to facilitate her being a part of the vampire pyramid scheme.

Both backed the losing side, and upon realizing it, tried to switch sides again; with VampHarmony trying to win her way back into favor with Cordelia once the other vampires were killed or driven off, and with Spike attacking the demon that almost attacked the Scoobies while under the Gestalt Slayer spell -- largely so that they wouldn't stake him for betraying them (said by Xander or Giles, and agreed to by Spike).

I guess the question is, were the writers unfair to VampHarmony, and to a lesser extent, to the canon? Would (or could) VampHarmony have been able to change if Cordelia HAD taken her back, so to speak, and let her be a part of AI?

Say what you want about the hostility Spike faced from the Scoobies, especially Xander, but he had it a LOT easier than VampHarmony did -- Cordelia was the ONLY one to stick up for her at all. Angel, the one person who might have reached out to her, pretty much held her in disdain and told Cordelia so indirectly. Gunn's interest melted like an ice cube in a blast furnace when he realized she was a vampire, and Wesley had no use for her at all.

So, if VampHarmony had been given the repeated second chances and support Spike had through S4, S5 and even S6, could she have reformed? Could she have risen above her pettiness, and been convinced she had self-worth, and that she could actually be something better?

Sure, Harmony had her (numerous) faults -- but after almost two years of evil, SANS chip or love of Slayer, Harmony TRIED to be something better -- largely on her own. Personally, (again, IMHO) that puts her higher on the list than any other vamp in my book -- except maybe Drusilla -- the TRUE tragic victim of the Buffyverse -- but that's another post :)

I know a lot of it came down to story viability -- no way they could have TWO reformed vampires in LA, and the main reason Spike is still around isn't because he's a swell guy, but because James Marsters brings in viewers (if not, he'd have been dusted in S2, as mentioned more than once in interviews) -- but that's a cop-out for this debate :)

Thoughts?

I should make this clear -- this is NOT an opportunity to bash Harmony, VampHarmony or Mercedes McNab. If that's all you have to add, do me a favor, and don't -- it will end badly for you.

Take it and run.
[> Re: Was VampHarmony in "Disharmony" really any worse than Spike from S4 or S5? -- AngelVSAngelus, 13:13:31 07/17/02 Wed

No, she wasn't any worse than Spike at that time. In fact, the similarity of the circumstances of she and Spike at that time led me to believe the episode (written by David Fury I think) was written as a commentary on Spike himself.
My answer is that she couldn't have changed her nature, even if she thought she wanted to try at the time. She was acting more selfishly than with virtuous entent, wanting to get back to life as it was in high school, when she was powerful and didn't have to deal with pesky things like a Slayer.
As soon as it was in her favor, she turned back to evil. Personally that's my, and from the interviews I've read Fury's, position on Spike as well, but I guess his getting a soul changes the rules of the game, now doesn't it?
Spike, at least, had the benefit of a chip that forced him not to be able to turn back to that side no matter how much he wanted to. Harmony had no limitation on her capacity for active evil. I thought it was insane that Cordelia of all people would've been around the girl without a crossbow, but she learned soon enough. *sigh* Only to make the same mistake with pregnant Darla.
[> [> What about just not doing evil? -- Earl Allison, 13:16:59 07/17/02 Wed

Yes, VampHarmony was largely not doing evil because it was hard, and she was lazy. However, with the proper support and friends, I DO think she could at least be convinced NOT to do evil and KILL, even if she opted not to actually do good.

Take it and run.
[> [> No, just more dangerous -- auroramama, 14:35:32 07/17/02 Wed

I figured it was a number of things, but not a judgement that Harmony was "worse" than S4 Spike:

1) Harmony can kill people.

2) AI had already experienced the joy of working with Harmony, and they weren't eager for more. She wasn't just infuriating, she was an obstacle to getting work done.

3) She turned on them so fast that she never showed them she could be useful, unlike Spike.

4) They just weren't equipped to give a second chance to a vamp who'd have to be babysat every instant to make sure she didn't kill anyone. But Cordy did let her go, and I don't think she would have if Harmony had been all grrr, argh from start to finish.

auroramama
[> Do you really want me, a known redemptionist, to agree with you? -- Sophist, 13:17:56 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> I want you to be honest, and not bash -- but you don't bash, so fire away :) -- Earl Allison, 13:21:49 07/17/02 Wed

Not at all, I guess, being somewhat more favorably inclined towards VampHarmony, the fact that one got "screwed" by the canon while the other didn't is what bothers me most about the Spike arc.

We were told one thing in "Disharmony," and quite another in Buffy -- and it SHOULD be one or the other -- again, IMHO.

So, no, agree or disagree, your posts are always worth it.

Take it and run.
[> [> [> Living bash free these days. -- Sophist, 13:39:54 07/17/02 Wed

I love Harmony. I agree with you -- she was entitled to the same treatment as Spike. Of course, if they wanted to explore the different outcomes when one gets positive reinforcement and the other doesn't, that would be ok. It's pretty clear they didn't do that.

ME's intentions about Spike are now unclear to me (and to us all I suspect). I assume from his re-souling that they are taking the same position with The Vampire Formerly Known As Spike as they did with Harmony. In that case, at least they are getting equal treatment.

Personally, I'd like them to bring back Harmony and pair her, at least temporarily, with Xander. I think it'd be hilarious.
[> [> [> [> Yes, Yes, I know I know, redemption for soulless vampires is where we part ways -- AngelVSAngelus, 13:44:54 07/17/02 Wed

So I guess its a fundamental disagreement on the nature of the canon. Or maybe whether or not the canon is important in the first place.
As well known a Redemptionist you are, so too am I known as the Resident Spike's-Better-As-A-Villain-Or-Reluctant- Anti-Hero-and-Can't-Be-Redeemed-Without-A-Soul touter. Heh.
[> [> [> [> [> We need a name -- Masq, 14:47:54 07/17/02 Wed

"Resident Spike's-Better-As-A-Villain-Or-Reluctant-Anti-Hero- and-Can't-Be-Redeemed-Without-A-Soul touters" need a name.

Because we are not, I repeat NOT "Spike haters"
[> [> [> [> [> [> I believe it's "fundies" -- Ete, 14:51:30 07/17/02 Wed

because you believe in the show's fundment that without a soul a creature is evil
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I know Masq is but what am I? -- d'Herblay, 14:57:43 07/17/02 Wed

I prefer Spike as a villain or reluctant anti-hero, but think the whole soul thing is just propaganda and think redemption is for aluminum cans, like to see Spike snarky but don't much care to see him naked, was an enthusiastic supporter of the Spuffy 'ship up until the moment it actually happened, at which point I decided that it coincided with the worst run of episodes in the show's history. Is there a convenient label for me? Because I'm not sure what to put on my calling cards.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sensible? -- erythro-kitty, 15:18:51 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not sure what to call ourselves, but does anyone else think its odd... -- AngelVSAngelus, 16:18:33 07/17/02 Wed

That it seems, at least in my experience, that those in the Yet-To-Be-Named camp seem to have watched the series since its beginning, and those I've talked to in the Redemption camp started midway through and went backwards? Anyone who's a Redemptionist and started from the beginning correct me if I'm wrong here, that's just how I remember it as I've encountered them.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Crotchety old man speaking -- d'Herblay, 16:51:08 07/17/02 Wed

Hmmm . . . I'm not so certain that one can find a clear-cut correspondence between how long one has been watching the show and how one feels about certain themes such as redemption. For one thing, I, who watched pieces of the premiere and would tune in sporadically until I got hooked by "Nightmares," still don't know quite how I feel about redemption. I do think, however, that there is a clear connection between being new to the show and being more accepting of recent plot developments. Someone who started watching during Season 6 will form his or her first impressions of Spike in the new-semi-redeemed version. Those of us with longer memories may have more problems with it. This is akin to the old men sitting around playing dominos talking about how things were in the good ol' days, as opposed to children emerging from the womb with the ability to program the VCR.

Anyway, I've never had too many problems with Spike's journey to redemption, if that is his journey, per se. My real problem is that a large chunk of that journey (actually, a detour away from that journey) took place during a whole bunch of crappy episodes. I wonder though if my willingness to see the "Wrecked" to "As You Were" doldrums as "crappy," though, is just another example of how I, at age thirty, am already a crotchety old man.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Crotchety old man speaking -- shadowkat, 06:54:17 07/18/02 Thu

Well I agree with you on everything but the impressions.
My Buffy watching is to be honest exactly the same as yours.
I didn't get interested until the Pack and Nightmares.
And I'm also on the fence redemption wise. I honestly don't know where I stand. The whole soul canon confuses me and feels like a device and to be honest a rather clumsy one to separate characters Buffy can kill from characters Buffy can't kill. (Notice did not say good/evil or chaos/order...because this no longer seems to be clear- cut.)
I've read all the arguments and debates and continue to change my mind on this one.

"I've never had too many problems with Spike's journey to redemption, if that is his journey, per se. My real problem is that a large chunk of that journey (actually, a detour away from that journey) took place during a whole bunch of crappy episodes. I wonder though if my willingness to see the "Wrecked" to "As You Were" doldrums as "crappy," though, is just another example of how I, at age thirty, am already a crotchety old man."


Yep, me too..except I'm 35, so crotchety older woman? ugh.
Agree, was for Spuffy until the creepy Wrecked to As You Were thread. (Otherwise known as MN's attempt to show everyone her horrible bad-boyfriend relationship, sorry could have done without this, been there, done that, seen it, not original...) Found this rather painful to watch.

I like Spike b/c I haven't the faintest idea what the writers are going to do with him and b/c I think he is such a complex
fascinating character - actually the most complex in both shows.

As for the impressions of recent viewers? I know several who fall into your camp and mine. Or somewhere in between.
Most like Spike as reluctant anti-hero.

What do we call ourselves? Fence sitters?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Counter-example -- Sophist, 17:04:12 07/17/02 Wed

Sorry, but I've watched from the beginning. Seen every episode when it first aired.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Since Surprise -- Ete, 20:56:11 07/17/02 Wed

and needless to say, I'm a redemptionnista.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I Stand Corrected -- AngelVSAngelus, 21:18:17 07/17/02 Wed

I'd just talked to a bunch of people who were down with Spike-As-Good-Guy, and they'd, as you said, formulated that perception by seeing him from Season 4/5 onward.
One could ask if my own young age has anything to do with things as well, but in the end it truthfully all boils, beyond generalization, down to simple matter of opinion I guess.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I believe it's "fundies" -- Masq, 15:03:56 07/17/02 Wed

I believe demons on the show can be good. There are many examples. Whether they have souls or not has never been addressed on the show. Vampires are the only demons where the soul-no soul question has been directly addressed.

As for Spike, I don't enjoy Spike as a "good" character. He was my favorite villain until they emasculated him. In Seasons 5 and 6, he was just just a big, fluffy puppy with bad teeth.

But hear me, people, Spike was NEVER 100% evil! He was the best villain in season 2 and before he got his chip in season 4 because he was morally ambiguous and complex--his love for Dru, his willingness to work with the Slayer if it got him what he wanted!

I want that Spike back. The half-assed "good" Spike of the end of Season 5 was one-dimensional and boring.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Errr -- Ete, 15:15:14 07/17/02 Wed

Fans of evil Spike, what were the name of the fans of evil spike... nah, I can't remember sorry. But I know that you're not alone about that :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I believe it's "fundies" -- Rufus, 21:03:18 07/17/02 Wed

As for Spike, I don't enjoy Spike as a "good" character. He was my favorite villain until they emasculated him. In Seasons 5 and 6, he was just just a big, fluffy puppy with bad teeth.

But hear me, people, Spike was NEVER 100% evil! He was the best villain in season 2 and before he got his chip in season 4 because he was morally ambiguous and complex--his love for Dru, his willingness to work with the Slayer if it got him what he wanted!

I agree with you, none of the vampires are 100% evil and that is why even Buffy is conflicted about killing them at times. As for the Spike of season two being a better villian I think that is a personal preference cause I like the evolution of Spikes character better than leaving him a one note villian. I don't think that the restoration of a soul is going to make Spike 100% good and we will get to see the adjustment phase of being ensoulled we never got with Angel. Spike can never completely go back to the villian of season two anymore than Buffy can go back to being the 15 year old she was when she discovered she was a slayer. All characters evolve and some will long for the character that once was (think Cordy) and some will want to see where the story leads. As for the ship with Buffy...I can take or leave it. I liked her with Angel and Riley but not with the Spike with a chip in his head and no soul......who knows what I'll think of the Spike with a chip and a soul.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> My point was, Spike was NEVER "one note" -- Masq, 21:52:09 07/17/02 Wed

Certainly not as a villain.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I guess that's where we differ....;) -- Rufus, 22:44:42 07/17/02 Wed

There were only a few things he could possibly do and to stick around Sunnydale they were going to have to quit kicking the sh*t out of him. His character is evolving and you just may see some of the "old Spike" traits in this new ensoulled vampire. At least he will be a bit less conflicted about his actions. I may be one of the few that found the early Spike boring, he may have had a few snarky lines but he had more bark and less bite and was a character type I see all the time....it becomes tedious. When they made him more and more conflicted it was more interesting for me. I'll reserve my judgement til I see what they do with him as to how I feel about the "ensoulled" Spike.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not the only one Rufus -- shadowkat, 07:10:28 07/18/02 Thu

"I may be one of the few that found the early Spike boring, he may have had a few snarky lines but he had more bark and less bite and was a character type I see all the time....it becomes tedious. When they made him more and more conflicted it was more interesting for me. I'll reserve my judgement til I see what they do with him as to how I feel about the "ensoulled" Spike."

You weren't alone. Spike was briefly interesting for me in Becoming and Lover's Walk. Season 4 Spike got old, fast. I found him a better villain than the master in Season 2, but like you, he's Season 4 character type, was one I'd seen before. And after awhile tedious. I think they've gone as far as they can with the whole Spike as villain thing. Much further than they ever did with anyone else. And there was no way they could keep the character alive unchipped. And I'd rather have Spike than see him killed or pushed to part- time/recurring status like Darls, Harmony or Dru.

Spike didn't get really interesting for me, nor did the show until the second half of Season 5. He stopped being just the 1930's black and white snarky villain played for laughs. He got more complex.

Now the odd thing is - I prefered Cordy as snarky, self- absorbed cheerleader type. The new saintly Cordy bores me.
I also found Angel more interesting as evil, either in the couple of episodes prior to Epiphany or as Angelus.

So clearly I'm not consistent in my tastes. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not the only one Rufus -- Rufus, 22:35:16 07/18/02 Thu

I have to admit to wishing that Cordy became less a Saint and a little more of a well dressed sinner. But she isn't a bad guy so the worst she can do is wear that purple shirt again, or to go overlimit on her credit card....;)At least then she seemed more honest than the sleep walking and talking Cordy of late last season.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's funny.... -- shadowkat, 07:01:12 07/18/02 Thu

You prefer Spike as a villain and I much prefered Angel as one. I find Angelus a far more interesting character than Angel with a soul. Meanwhile I find Spike chipped and moving towards a soul far more interesting than he was as a villain. Maybe I'll change my mind once I watch tapes of Season 1 and 2 Ats. But doubt it. DB just is more fun to watch evil. And JM can do the range between good and evil so brillantly. But it is a subjective view I think - some people identify more closely with the Liam's and Cordy's
while others identify more closely with the William's and Willow's.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ditto -- Sophist, 08:16:03 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spike was NEVER "one note" -- aliera, 10:12:53 07/18/02 Thu

As usual, all good thoughts.

It's a bit apples and oranges as we practice the ATPo drift here. Masq is very correct though; for the screen time he was given as part of the "mis-menage et trois" he was a very interesting and exciting character (popular too, I believe, thus he survived the initial stake-after-a-few- episodes plan.) My other faves the Mayor and Glory were BB's with much more attention paid to them-also extremely fun to watch.

Season-end, I was, in fact, truly rooting for chip-removal not soul-retrieval and a chance to see what would happen THEN. (I'm over it; but, I still have pangs.) My quibbles don't really have to do with his demi-good status (whihc like SK and Rufus I am enjoying) but more the weakened aspect we found him in. I believe JM when he says this is in part a natural side effect of dating Buffy, not to upstage the slayer that is. Just not so fun to watch.

None the less, I will be quite happy to watch whatever new contortions he gets up to this season(as long as he's not martyred, THAT would be truly be annoying.)

Anyone else feel like we've been put into more of a literal rather than metaphoric mode this year? I think that's affected some of the viewing experience.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Quote of the Week candidate here! -- Darby, 10:41:25 07/18/02 Thu

...or at least the Label of the Week:

"The ATPo Drift."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Continents have drifted less than we. -- Arethusa, 11:10:30 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well...I agree with everything you say -- shadowkat, 11:11:20 07/18/02 Thu

Yep...have the same quibbles. PArt of me wanted the chip- removal. Still have pangs they didn't do it. Dang it.
Didn't want it to happen - if they turned him totally bad...that would be dull. Complexity is what I like.
His weakened state made it painful to watch.

"Anyone else feel like we've been put into more of a literal rather than metaphoric mode this year? I think that's affected some of the viewing experience."

Yes. I think it confused some people b/c so many tried to find metaphorical meanings in props. Myself included.
If Joss is to be believed I think they are going back to that next season.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> My point was, Spike was NEVER "one note" -- Masq, 21:54:15 07/17/02 Wed

Certainly not as a villain.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I believe it's "fundies" -- Darby, 06:49:02 07/18/02 Thu

I would never join a group whose name basis I have to look up in the dictionary. But it might be good that I did...

But shy away from "fundies" - the other definitions of "fundament" are "buttocks" and "anus."

And, on topic, Harmony applies to the old story of the frog and the scorpion, but muzzled Spike doesn't. Makes the situations too different to compare, I think.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I believe it's "fundies" -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:06:04 07/18/02 Thu

Also, it's a name sometimes used to describe Christian Fundamentalists (ie believing the entire Bible is absolutely and totally true). I would NOT want to get myself confused with THOSE guys.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ironic, considering 2nd meanings... -- Darby, 10:43:41 07/18/02 Thu

But I am so not going there!

I'm sure that those so inclined can flesh out their own snarky comments / nasty jokes on their own.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I believe that was the point... -- Masq, 13:31:01 07/18/02 Thu

To imply that we are simplistic, knee-jerk thinkers who haven't considered all angles of the Spike story line and who are trapped in black-and-white thinking.

An ad hominem argument, of course. Proving nothing, since Spike still graces the front of my "Moral ambiguity" page as the reigning King of Gray.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I believe that was the point... -- Malandanza, 21:38:37 07/18/02 Thu

"To imply that we are simplistic, knee-jerk thinkers who haven't considered all angles of the Spike story line and who are trapped in black-and-white thinking."

Ete's French (hence the words used a "shade too precisiely" in her posts) -- I doubt "fundies" has the same connotation in France that it has here.

All the same, I'd rather be called an Anti-Redemptionista than a fundie.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I merely repeated a word I had stumbled on before - - Ete, 07:30:42 07/19/02 Fri

And I though it was the name those people gave to themselves... I should have think that since I found that word on pro-Spike boards it could have bad conotations, sorry :(

I try to respect different opinions on the subject, usually, not to make fun of it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No need for you to apologize -- Sophist, 09:05:49 07/19/02 Fri

The word itself is just a shortened form of fundamentalist. In the Buffy sense, this should mean that one accepts the "soul canon", and that Spike, like any vampire, can't be redeemed without a soul. In that sense, it's a good term.

Unfortunately, the term "fundie" has some bad connotations that go with the strict definition. It suggests someone narrow-minded and intolerant. Cynical note: generally, it's the other guy's fundamentalism that's narrow-minded and intolerant. Our own is open and tolerant. Hehe.

How about the term "strict constructionist"? Lots of people like that when it comes to, say, constitutional law. For the religious, the term "literalist" is used. I don't like that as well in the case of BtVS, but since I'm on the other side, it doesn't seem fair for me to choose.

I'll call them whatever they want in public. In private, you and I can make fun of them as fundies. :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Snarkists -- Arethusa, 15:15:41 07/17/02 Wed

Not to be confused with lovers of tuna.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> *****CUTE*****<g> -- Rufus, 23:47:48 07/17/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Question about Harmony? -- shygirl, 14:40:26 07/17/02 Wed

I've not seen all of the early episodes sooo, was harmony that dippy blond vampire who kept following the Scoobies around and they acted like she was the village dork? I vaguely remember a scene of a blond vamp following the scoobies car???? Can you find my memory for me?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Question about Harmony? -- meritaten, 15:19:36 07/17/02 Wed

Reader's Digest Version:

In the beginning of the series, Harmany was a living human high school student. She was one of Cordelia's friends, and was brilliant for her stupidity and snobbiness. She got bit (at graduation, I believe), and returned to the show when Spike moved back to Sunnydale (S4). She and Spike, at this time, were lovers (although Spike was clearly only using her). Being a vamp did nothing for her IQ. She and Spike parted ways, she moped and whined a bit, and eventually left town. She went to LA and dropped in on Cordelia, hoping to regain the joys of being a total snob and bitch (as in high school). Cordelia learns that Harmony is now a vamp. Cordy decided to maintain the friendship despite this development, as Harmony declares that she wants to become good. Harmony agrees to spy on a big vampire meeting for AI, but falls for the rhetoric of the vamp leader. Harmony betrays AI, and almost gets them killed. Cordelia spares her life, but tells her to leave.
[> [> [> Difference betweeen Buffy and Angel characters (BtVS S6 and AtS S3 spoilers) -- Mistress Keldari, 15:45:45 07/17/02 Wed

I have to wonder if the inconsitency of the canon is due to the nature of the characters on AtS versus BtVS. On Buffy, there is more often a greater focus on forgiveness and redeption; whereas on Angel, the charaters have a tendency to hold grudges.

On BtVS, the characters are willing to forgive Buffy for attempting to have them killed (Normal Again). On AtS, no one is even considering forgiveness for Wesley for the Conner incident (Season 3).

I think it is a fundamental difference in the nature of the characters on these shows, and would be my guess as to why Harmony was not supported more in attempts at goodness. I wonder what the result would have been if Harmony had tried to become good in Sunnydale...
[> [> [> [> Things weren't always like that though.... -- AngelVSAngelus, 16:24:52 07/17/02 Wed

and still to this day, the characters that are forgiven on Buffy tend to be the human ones with a reputation of goodness, i.e. Momentarily-Murderous-Buffy.
Granted, on Angel vengeance is more of a factor than forgiveness, because of the nature of its title character. Angel can't forgive others because he can't forgive himself.
But I don't think that theme bears pertinance to the non- tolerance of vampires without souls. That particular non- tolerance was born of the show the series spawned from, originally.
I remember the times when Buffy looked on in deadpan apathy at a crying and reminiscing Spike, before telling him how much she didn't care and hated him.
Or when she mocked his relationship issues with Dru/Angelus, calling Dru a big ho.
Fun times.
[> [> [> [> Actually, IMHO, quite the opposite in some ways ... -- Earl Allison, 04:52:39 07/18/02 Thu

Actually, I've always seen Angel the Series as far more grey than Buffy the Vampire Slayer -- especially given the main character of Angel, former scourge of Europe as Angelus, and his support group -- Cordelia, the attempting-to-repent former acid-tongued princess, and Wesley, the former Golden Child of the Watcher's Council who lost his Slayer to Darkness. AI is made up of people seeking redemption or atonement of one sort or another -- and annoying or not, VampHarmony should have probably been received a little better in that light (all IMHO, of course).

Buffy and her group, on the other hand, were far more black- and-white. Vampires (except for Angel) are evil. Everything was far more cut-and-dried.

True, SOME of that changed, especially in the changing perceptions towards Spike (and to a lesser extent, Anya/Anyanka), but really, if anything, VampHarmony should have been MORE likely to be accepted at AI, and Spike should have met the business end of Buffy's stake in S4, simply because it was more in keeping with the tones and characters of the series in question.

I just think that the canon was juggled a bit to facilitate keeping a popular actor on BtVS when the "implied canon" was more adhered to, even if it was OOC for the AI crew, in respect to VampHarmony.

Does any of this make sense, or am I babbling incoherently?

Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Angel' more realistic -- Liam, 08:47:25 07/18/02 Thu

Earl,

What you say makes perfect sense. I prefer 'Angel' to 'Buffy' at the moment because that show is more realistic - more 'grey' as you put it - for example, in terms of how the group deal with infractions of members.

Angel, in season 2, was rejected by the group because of his actions. Even though he was later forgiven, he was not accepted back as leader, that job falling to Wesley. In season 3, Wesley forfeited both his leadership and membership of Angel Investigations because of what he did with Connor. In short, the bad actions of members affect the group dynamic, with resulting consequences, particularly long-term ones.

It is with this in mind that I wonder how the Scoobies are going to function as a group in season 7, thanks to Buffy the sex-addict, whose neglect led to the death of Tara, and Willow the magic-addict and murderer, who attempted to wipe out the entire human race.
[> Not really a double standard... -- Malandanza, 19:27:19 07/17/02 Wed

"So, if VampHarmony had been given the repeated second chances and support Spike had through S4, S5 and even S6, could she have reformed? Could she have risen above her pettiness, and been convinced she had self-worth, and that she could actually be something better?"


I think the difference lies less with Harmony and Spike than with Buffy and AI. Can you imagine Buffy staking Harmony if Harmony had showed up on her doorstep weeping and begging for sanctuary? Angel, Wesley and Gunn would have had no problems staking Spike, but Buffy is different. She is discriminatory in her slaying -- she let harmless vampires escape when Spike led her to their lair on their first date, she let Spike live in spite of his frequent betrayals (like placing Riley's life in jeopardy to try to get his chip removed) -- she really isn't a killer. She slays those who cause trouble and leaves the Clems of the world alone. The demons that have assimilated have a pretty comfortable life in Sunnydale (when Spike isn't killing them for sport, anyway).

Could Harmony have been reformed? Probably -- sort of. She didn't have much of a personality to begin with and, like Andrew, she likes taking orders. She'd be less likely to betray the Scoobies simply because she lacks an imagination. She gravitates to the strongest personality (and that would be Buffy). She'd be a good minion.

So, not really a double standard -- Buffy has one standard, AI has another. They have each acted with reasonable consistency.
[> Harmony was better than Spike in season 6 -- change, 04:04:32 07/18/02 Thu

In Smashed, when Spike thinks that the chip has stopped working he immediately tries to kill some girl he finds in an alley. He spends about 2 minutes debating with himself it before he puts on his game face and goes in for the kill even while his victim is pleading for her life. In Disharmony, Harmony apparently hadn't eaten in a while and was quite hungry. However, she behaves herself and does not attack Cordy for several hours even though she is alone with her. When she does, it is only with obvious reluctance and Cordy is able to talk her out of it easily. Harmony even apoligies. She then leaves Cordy alone for the rest of the night and then stays with the rest of AI for part of the day without attacking them. She had much better control than Spike.

Harmony is a sheep (BBB). She finds a leader and follows them. She sought out Cordy because Cordy was the leader of Harmony's high school clique. I think if she had been accepted into AI, she would have done what the other members of AI wanted. They could have dominated her without too much trouble. However, she would be doing good only to stay in AI, not because she really wanted to be good. She could also have been recruited by other vampires which is what happenned in Disharmony. She will simply ally herself with the strongest group., whoever that is.
**SPOILER** - villian for S7 -- meritaten, 15:03:08 07/17/02 Wed

I just read that Glory will be back. Not sure of source though.

What do you think?

P.S. I still think Glory was the greatest villian!
[> Continuing the spoilers, but spoiling them -- Darby, 15:28:19 07/17/02 Wed

There are a lot of rumored returns, but remember that every major dead character has come back in some form of other, and we have no idea how the returnees will be used.

...But Joss is supposed to be writing the premiere, which should be shot next week, and both "Warren" & "Glory" were available for the press this week...we could be seeing someone contact the Other Side looking for Tara and run into some Big Bad Trouble...
[> I disagree ... -- Wolfhowl3, 19:35:25 07/17/02 Wed

The Mayor was the Greatest Big Bad!

Wolfie
Things we don't want to see... (spoilers maybe for 6) -- Lilac, 17:40:48 07/17/02 Wed

I've been pretty quiet, board-wise, since the end of the season, but I have been reading a lot of what has been going on, and, not surprisingly, thinking about it. The thread below about SR and Spike's actions therein, and those about the sad loss of Tara have me thinking about ME showing us things we don't want to see. I think that this actually demonstrates a lot of creative integrity. Nothing is worse than a show that panders to what the audience wants and loses its original goal. Two that come to mind are Good Times -- started out as a show about a family, but changed its focus to the goofy son when that character proved to be popular -- the other show's name I can't even remember, but it's the one with Urkle, which I guess shows how the same thing happened there. A character that was supposed to be secondary to the family story became the driving force. (I realize that these are both black family comedies, and I really hope that no one assumes I am trying to say anything I am not trying to say in using them as examples -- the tendency to pander is pretty universal in most TV shows, these two just happen to be blatant examples that pop into mind.) My point is that ME doesn't just play to what the audience wants -- even considering Spike's increased air (and skin) time.

On the issue of Tara and Willow's relationship, and Tara's tragic death -- I think that ME did something truly significant by providing a gay relationship that was open and accepted by everyone in the Scooby gang. I suspect that for many people, it was the first time they had ever had such a positive, accepted, and routine gay couple presented to them. People accepted and cared about Tara and Willow, so it really hurt when Tara died. To me, if the point of art is to engage us, this was successful because it did engage us. We cared about whether Tara would come back to Willow, we cared that they seemed to be happy, and we felt the loss when Tara was taken away. That's how loss happens in real life, and it is how it should happen in good drama.

I understand the feelings of those who feel politically betrayed by Tara's murder -- if you see no one who is like you in media, it means a lot when a good representative shows up. But I think it is worth noting that it is a sign of tremendous respect for Tara and Willow's relationship that Tara's loss was shown to be so important and felt so deeply by everyone around them. I think it is important that Tara's character transcended being a "gay" character and became a character that so many cared about.

On Spike in SR, I certainly didn't want to see that. While I am a supporter of the Spuffy relationship (with the hope that it could get healthier), I think it was a valid artistic choice. I believe it is the first time I have ever seen an attempted rape in a story that made me understand why the man tried to do it, to feel some sympathy for him. That is not to say that I thought it was OK, or that it is something that can just be forgotten about. It was wrong, wrong, wrong, even though it may be understandable based on things that had happened earlier in the relationship. It certainly demonstrated the extreme low point Spike had sunk to.

What gives ME productions value, to me, is that they challenge us in ways that few other programs do. People we care about do bad things, people we care about die. ME doesn't pander to what the audience wants -- if they did Buffy and Angel would still be exchanging smoldering, star crossed gazes in Sunnydale cemeteries and how boring would that be by now? Life often makes us experience things we would rather not, but we are often better for it. I think ME does the same thing.
[> Re: Things we don't want to see... (spoilers maybe for 6) -- trebor, 20:20:59 07/17/02 Wed

Two interesting (to me) follow ups:

NYPD Blue, when the show began, was supposed to be about David Caruso's character, and his partner was supposed to be killed in the pilot. Of course, audiences (and Steven Bochco and David Milch to some extent) actually liked Dennis Franz's character, and he was rewritten back into the show. In this case, it didn't really effect the other characters. Caruso's character didn't change, and none of the other characters had that deep of relationships (at that point) with Franz's, who was an alcoholic, bigot, and all around unpleasent person.

When the ER pilot premiered, Julianna Marguilles character (Carol Hathaway) was supposed to die on the ER table by O.D. Again, the character tested well, the writers were able to use her to balance the boy/girl ration of the cast, and she had a very good three or four year story arc with George Clooney's character.

The difference, of course, was that these were early on. ME felt the only way to bring out the truly Evil Willow was to kill Tara. It was a character that we mostly grew to love or care about, but it also made us (the viewer) very passionate about it in some way or another as well. That's good writing, and that's good character development. We're interested in seeing what else will happen. And it was still true to the ME vision of this season, whether that was Joss, or Marti or both.

I wish there was still a Tara, but not at the cost of developing the other, central, characters. Or for the story that this season told.
[> [> Re: Things we don't want to see... (spoilers maybe for 6) -- Wizardman, 21:44:11 07/17/02 Wed

I agree- while ME killed one of my favourite characters on the show, the story arc kept me interested, and I am waiting impatiently for the season premiere. Most importantly of all, Tara's was not a stupid death- it was senseless, but not stupid. I couldn't forgive ME if it was stupid, and I believe that a lot of people may agree with me. And it's not like Tara is gone forever- no major character has left BtVS without at least one last good hurrah. Well, except for Cordelia and Wes, but that's because their busy on Angel. I know that ghostTara will be back. Although, come to think of it, Robia LaMorte hasn't actually returned as Jenny Calendar yet...
[> [> [> "Becoming" and "Amends" don't count? -- d'Herblay, 02:40:02 07/18/02 Thu

Could We See An Evil Xander (some possible Spoilers) -- trebor, 20:57:44 07/17/02 Wed

I had what I thought was an interesting theory.

We've seen glimpses of each character's very evil side. But, we can never see an Evil Xander. To try to explain:

Willow is obvious. Her Evil was built into her Magic and her emotions.

Spike, Angel, and Anya are obvious, we're actually seeing their Good sides after hundreds of years of being Evil.

Giles had a history as a Black Hat in England before becoming a Watcher. We've seen consequences of his actions, and have met Ethan Rayne, which could be a representation of what "Ripper" would have been.

Oz/WolfOz is pretty obvious. Oz or Tara were probably the truest characters in the show, but we saw Oz's Evil side.

Cordelia, IMO, was actually the "Evil" side. But, she was a different kind of evil, not the living dead. She was the classic High School villian, Miss Popular who could have done anything to ruin your reputation. "Cordy" is actually BTVS's Good persona. AtS has good Cordy, but she really had to get Demon DNA to really reach that side. (my AtS history isn't as up to par as it should be)

We haven't seen Buffy's truly Evil side, but, we've seen what Faith could do. Faith, IMO, represents the Evils a Slayer could hold. But, we've seen glimpses of Bad Buffy and naive Buffy, not a true Evil Buffy. Though, you really can't have the Hero of the story go Evil, can you?

Dawn hasn't really been flushed out as a character yet, though it may be, since she is essentially Buffy, the same theory holds for her. But, is she human? Does she have power that may be untapped?

But, that leads us back to Xander. Xander, the only true human character on the show. A Zeppo. He has no magic, no slayer abilities, just a big heart. Lots of love for his friends. No special powers. Can he be Evil?

We've seen the two sides of Xander. There's the one we see every week, sometimes unsure, sometimes afraid of what may happen or what may be. We've seen a glimpse of the other side of the coin, though. A confident Xander, a cool, calculating one. The one who got the promotion, the apartment, and kept the girl. That was also the side we saw in the vampXander. Vamp Xander was cool and calculating, and had a vengeful side, but what Vamps don't?

So, his Vamp side has nearly the same persona as we saw in the confident Xander from The Replacement. But, as we also saw in The Replacement, once the two Xanders were together, the dominant personalit won out: The sometimes annoying, sometimes unnerved, unsure Xander. That's the dominant personality. Is that a side that could leave to Evil, though?

I don't think there could ever be an Evil Xander. All of the other characters in the show have had an evil side, or we've seen glimpses of what their evil sides could be, but not Xander. Xander could never be evil. Flawed, yes, Evil, no.

Any thoughts?
[> His father -- Vickie, 22:56:48 07/17/02 Wed

[> Re: Could We See An Evil Xander (some possible Spoilers) -- Caesar Augustus, 06:05:43 07/18/02 Thu

One of the messages of s6 was that anyone is capable of Evil. Xander's evil lies in rash, angry impulses. His issues with Angel in B2 and Revelations are an example. The darkest we see of him in s6, I belive, is in the Stewart Burns' orb. But then again he fears his own darkness, maybe that prevents it from having too much chance of coming out. I think he's capable of evil, e.g. VampXander, but I'd wager there's no chance of us seeing that in s7 which will turn away a bit from the darkness within.
[> Re: Could We See An Evil Xander (some possible Spoilers) -- LeeAnn, 06:42:28 07/18/02 Thu

When Buffy beat a person who loved her until he couldn't stand and then left him to fry in an alley, that was evil to me.
[> Mr Judgemental? Not evil? -- Dochawk, 10:46:34 07/18/02 Thu

Have you watched Xander? He is the most judgemental charactr on the show. Someone else mentioned how he thought about Angel (and Spike for that matter), but watch Dead Man's Party and tell me that wasn't a prelude to evil? His flaws were much more frightening than anything Willow did in the first 4 seasons. And even after he started dating a former demon he couldn't let go of his judgementalness (boy is that a word?). Look at his reaction to Buffy and Spike. Based on his attitudes he could easily be portrayed as a bigot and a racist (lilly white Sunnydale, so representative of the southern california I live in hasn't given us a chance to see that side of Xander yet).
[> [> Agreed. -- Sophist, 12:24:06 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Mr Judgemental? Not evil? -- Majin Gojira, 16:28:31 07/18/02 Thu

Yes, Xander is a Bigote and racist TOWARDS DEMONS. true, there are good demons, but they are few and far between. He loaths them for a rather logical reason: Jessie.

In the Words of Cordelia: "What's your Childhood Trama?"

Xander's is Jessie.

So, If Xander does go Evil, it would be something like: "I'm going to rid the world of all demons...and Magic...and anyone who gets in my way"

Interesting concept - but I just can't see Xander that far gone without being 'tainted' somehow. be it from magic or Emotional Pain.
[> [> What Sophist said -- Dead Soul, 16:50:49 07/18/02 Thu

Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Three (1 of 2) -- LittleBit, 22:48:49 07/17/02 Wed

Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Three

[Preface: to avoid misunderstanding of the terms as I am choosing to use them, the Big Bad is the one who drives the season an the story arc; little bads are anyone/anything else, regardless of their degree of 'badness'.]

Season 3: Evil comes from trusted authority

The BIG BAD
In season 3 the Big Bad is the Mayor of Sunnydale. He initially appears as a genial, caring person who guides Sunnydale but very quickly shows the side that we have suspected from Principal Snyder's innuendos and interactions. He's able to shift from hail-fellow-well-met to psychotic menace in mid-sentence, most times quite entertainingly which actually adds to the menace. We learn he is responsible for the town of Sunnydale being built on the Hellmouth a century ago and that he had fairly diverse demonic assistance for which he pays tribute. He controls vampiric and demonic activity, after ousting the other demonic powers, and uses it to his own ends. And those ends are the only things that matter to him until he meets Faith. He forms an affectionate attachment to Faith, perhaps seeing the same reckless disregard and bravado he once had. She becomes both his protégé and his weakness. His attitude towards her is very much that of a doting father. He gives her affection, security, and approval and in return gains a fierce loyalty. He's been around for at least a century as the man in charge of the playground of the Hellmouth, and has been working toward what he perceives as the ultimate goal — Ascension to full demon-hood himself. In pursuit of this goal he becomes impervious to harm. With Faith, he is the one who undermines the relationship between Buffy and Angel. Ultimately his attachment to Faith becomes his undoing, Buffy is able to use this weakness to distract and defeat him. The Mayor was a dichotomy, alternately the man and the evil Mayor. He was very charismatic in both characters, very disturbing in that even when he is clearly in the persona of the ascender, it is easy to see how he draws people (of all species) to him. After the dedication he positively revels in his invulnerability; he shows it off, to Angel, to Buffy and the Scoobies, to Principal Snyder and the police. He was a worthy foe, creative and unpredictable, giving them a challenge beyond any they have faced. His mercurial nature gave him an advantage against the Scooby Gang until Buffy decided to do something equally as unexpected; she recruited the entire student body in an effort to thwart the Mayor's ascension. With the students battled the Mayor's henchmen, Buffy gained the time advantage she needed to get his attention and enrage him. Ultimately the mayor's demise not only ended his reign as a demon, but with the destruction of the library and the resultant damage to the school, it very firmly marked the ending of their high school days.

VAMPIRE
Kakistos is one of the oldest vampyres, so old that he had cloven hands and feet, likely pre-dating even the Master. He has been unopposed for so long that when he is injured by Faith he has no thought other than exacting his vengeance upon her. He follows the new Slayer to Sunnydale after he killed her watcher and she managed to hurt him. For a vampyre who has survived as long as he has, he showed incredibly poor judgment regarding when to back off. Perhaps being unchallenged for so long, he had forgotten what a Slayer could do, and certainly ignored the capabilities of two Slayers working together. Her fear of him showed that Faith, for all her bravado, was not quite as sure of herself of secure in her Slayer skills as she professed.
Trick on the other hand, was quite aware of the realities of facing two Slayers. When it became clear to him that Kakistos was on a suicide mission, he bailed. Trick is one of the most intriguing vampires that faced Buffy. He has control. He uses his brains, and he definitely has some smarts to use. He embraces current technology. He has his meals delivered. He's calm, cool and collected. He's a sharp dresser. He doesn't like to get his hands dirty, both literally and figuratively. He chooses not to do his own dirty work. We're never really given any background on him. If what he once was informs what he is now, then he was intelligent, capable, a good manager, possibly in 'organized crime' but definitely not at the street level. His Slayer Fest was brilliantly conceived, evil, but brilliant. He is the one recruited by the Mayor to run things in the, ah, underworld. He brings Ethan back to the scene to run the Band Candy operation [and as an ex-band member, may I say it should only have been so easy to sell the things!] and acted only as an overseer. He wisely refrains from direct confrontation of the Slayer, until the Mayor orders him to remove the threat of both Buffy and Faith. He comes close to killing Buffy though, after Buffy pushes Faith out of the way of falling crates and is hit herself. But in the end, Faith returns the favor, and slays Trick.
Lyle & Candy Gorch are in town for the Slayer Fest. Lyle wants revenge for his brother Tector, even though it was not the Slayer who killed him. He and his new wife Candy think Slayer Fest is just the best way to spend their honeymoon. Candy doesn't make much of an improvement over Tector on the maturity scale, and their behavior remains very adolescent. The two do manage to get into the library, knock Giles out and get the weapons from the cage. But neither is a match for the Buffy and Cordelia team. Buffy slays Candy with Cordy's spatula, then, after a confrontation with a brassed-off homecoming-queen-candidate and as he has done twice before, Lyle bails.
Spike is back. A broken, love-sick, rejected Spike. Drusilla has turned her back on him for what he did to Angelus, even though Spike believes he did it for her. Dru tells him he's not demon enough anymore, not for her. Spike goes looking for a nasty spell to put on the chaos demon she left him for, but instead finds Willow. After a little shop- keeper snack he finds Willow to make her do a spell to make Dru love him again. It is during this time that Spike is shown to be keenly perceptive, especially about matters of the heart. It is he who points out to Buffy and Angel that even if they are fooling themselves and everyone else, he sees that they are not friends and never will be. He recognizes the passion that they have; it is the passion he wants again with Drusilla. He doesn't show any of the leader qualities he had before Angelus returned. It is as if he needs the passion, the commitment of his romantic side, before he give these qualities free rein; that 'love' allows him to realize his potential as a 'man'. He leads with his emotions, lets them dominate him, lives through them. In the end, it is his emotions that free him. He is exhilarated by the fighting, responds to the thrill it brings, becomes eager to win Drusilla back. He knows, better than anyone except Angelus, what she'll respond to, and sets out to do it. His way.
Zachary Kralik serves as an example of the callous disregard of the council for anything other than their own goals. Kralik was a criminally insane murderer/torturer as a mortal and except for being a vampire is virtually unchanged from his former persona. The CoW held the vamped Kralik captive. They control the medication that relieves the pain he gets in his head. He is to be unleashed on a weakened Slayer to 'test' her. Instead he turns one council guard, Blair, and together they feed on the other guard, Hobson. Kralik stalks Buffy, then kidnaps Joyce to draw Buffy to him. This may very well have been his m.o. as a human. He plays with Buffy in the house, he doesn't want to just kill her, he intends to turn her. He welcomes the pain of the cross as it burns him. He is ultimately undone by one of his attacks just as he is about to bite, and finds that holy water is not a good thing to take pills with. Blair is staked by Giles. One question left hanging is whether or not the pain attacks were taken into consideration by the CoW. Had things gone as planned, once Kralik was released he would not have the pills to take until the test was over. So if Buffy had not prevailed, the pain would put him back into the Council's power; and if the test went on long enough, then the pain would even the playing field a bit.
El Eliminati are a duelist cult who became the acolytes of the demon Balthazar. They, along with Balthazar, were driven out of Sunnydale a hundred years earlier, but now they've returned. They retrieve the amulet that gives Balthazar strength, but lose it to Buffy and Faith. Their leader is sent to kill the Mayor on Balthazar's orders, but Trick is there and he fails and is captured. Another takes his place as leader and is responsible for bringing the Slayers and the Watchers to Balthazar. They succeed with the Watchers, and this brings Buffy and Angel, along with the demise of the cult and the loss of their leader.
VampWillow was inadvertently brought to the BuffyVerse when Anya has Willow assist in a spell to bring back her amulet from the WishVerse. At first she's completely disoriented as she realizes that all the places are where they should be, but none of them are as they should be. Because she has the self-assurance her counterpart lacks, she decides to change this, make things the way she knows. VampWillow recruits the Mayor's vamps away from him and starts a frontal assault on the Bronze. Anya the lets her know what's happened and she goes looking for a return ticket. VampWillow eventually finds the opportunity to confront Willow. VampWillow is returned to the WishVerse by Willow, Anya and Giles just in time to die. VampWillow has all the characteristics that our Willow is repressing: power, confidence, even to being "kinda gay." And then Willow impersonating her, stating flat out the things she finds distressing about herself: weak, accommodating, doormat, cranky. VampWillow describing Willow to Cordelia as helpless and shy. In the end Willow, being who she is, sees this as an object lesson and resolves never to be like that.

DEMONS
Ken is the recruiter from hell. Literally. It is his part of the job to seek out young people who have no ties, no homes, few hopes and bring them under his care. At the Family Home, where they are, as he says, not just interested in feeding the body. He had that right. He wants their life. The fruits of their labors to the benefit of his demonic brethren. He sends them to Hell where they have no hope, only despair, and sends them back when they are old and spent with nothing more to give. They become no one, they have nothing. All that is left for them is death. Buffy is now where she thought she would be, only Angel/Angelus is not there to see her, and he didn’t save her a seat. As usual, though, Buffy changes the rules. Humans don't fight back, Slayers do. Ken is slain and the portal to hell is closed.
Ovu Mobani the evil eye is a zombie demon. His mask is brought to Sunnydale as part of a Nigerian primitive art shipment. His power is the ability to re-animate the dead as zombies. It is not clear whether or not the power of the mask manifested prior to its being shipped to Joyce's gallery, or if the mystic energy of the Hellmouth enhanced its reach. He does perpetrate the ultimate 'dead cat' joke on Buffy and Joyce [apologies — just couldn't resist], as the first reanimation we are aware of. Interestingly enough, the havoc he wreaks before Buffy destroys him as he possesses the body of Pat, serves to defuse the tension, and move everyone past the accusation point to where they are truly glad to have Buffy back.
Kulak a demon of the Miquot Clan, is one of the participants in the SlayerFest. He is yellow-skinned and has a spiny ridge on his head. His weapons come from his body — long, serrated knives that he can then throw. Quite well. He corners Buffy and Cordelia in the cabin, forcing them to work together in order to save each other's lives. When a grenade is launched into the cabin he chooses the wrong window for his exit and is blown up with the cabin.
Lurconis, the glutton, is one of the demons with whom the Mayor made deals in order to gain power. The demon itself is large and snakelike, and it dwells beneath the city in the filth of the sewers. Tribute consisting of babies is made to it every thirty years. Trick is given the job of procuring and delivering the tribute for the Mayor, who meets him in Lurconis' lair (and notes that the sewers need maintenance and repair). Buffy, Giles and Joyce come to the rescue of the babies; in the ensuing struggle one of Trick's vampires is kicked into Lurconis' pool to which the snake-like demon responds. The vampire is snatched into Lurconis' mouth and the demon retreats back down his tunnel. When Giles is thrown into the pool he manages to get out before the demon reappears and Buffy is able to engulf demon in flames from a gas pipe (that she breaks) ignited by the flames from one of the torches lighting the area.
Lagos a warrior demon seeks the Glove of Myhnegon, he is searching in the Sunnydale cemeteries. He encounters Faith after she and Buffy have had a busy night and easily holds her off while he searches. He is next seen at the crypt where the glove had been (prior to its removal by Angel) where Buffy is waiting. She finishes him off rather quickly, using his own battleaxe. It was Lagos coming to Sunnydale in search of the glove that brought Gwendolyn Post to town as well.
Anyanka was the vengeance demon who responded to Cordelia's need for revenge on Xander. How Anyanka received the summons is never made clear; she may simply have been drawn by Cordy's need, or she may have been inadvertently summoned when Cordelia performed a very ritualistic purging of Xander from her life — cutting him out of her pictures, cutting the pictures into pieces, then burning them. As a vengeance demon, Anyanka is generally unconcerned about the consequences of the wishes she grants, including the consequence to the one doing the wishing. Her demonic power has few limitations as shown by her ability to create (or find) an entire alternate reality in which the Slayer doesn't come to Sunnydale. In this reality however, once Cordelia realizes what has happened, things are changed to alter the outcome of the wish and also provide the clues that allow Anyanka herself to be defeated. In the end, her power source is destroyed turning Anyanka back into a human, the wish is reversed, and Sunnydale returns to the reality of the BuffyVerse, trapping Anyanka in her current persona.
The First Evil is, simply put by Giles, an ancient power, absolute evil, older than man, older than demons. The First is causing Angel to be haunted; trying to convince him that it was the power that brought him back from the hell dimension; attempting to induce him to kill Buffy to remove one of the champions of the Powers that Be. The First uses the guise of Jenny Calender to confront Buffy directly after she defeats its high priests. It taunts her with it's power, telling her it is never seen but still everywhere, in every being, in every thought. The First states that it is inconceivable to her, beyond sin, beyond death; it is that which the darkness itself fears. It then manifests in terrifying demon form, threatening her, coming straight at her, but can do nothing! The First Evil apparently must work through the Harbingers, using others who are physically present in this world to carry out it's desires. What seems inexplicable, however, is that it warns her about Angel's impending death at sunrise, allowing Buffy the chance to prevent it.
The Harbingers are the high priests of the First Evil. They haunt people by manifesting spirits, or visions that appear to be spirits, that can then influence behavior. They are the Harbingers of death, nothing growing above or below them. At least one of them is eyeless; interestingly enough, this is the one that watches throughout the dreams they bring to Angel, that are shared by Buffy. It is they who are actually haunting Angel with images of some of the people he killed or tortured as Angelus, seducing him with the promise that they will go away once he takes Buffy as a vampire. The most effective of these spirits is the manifestation of Jenny, the most seductive of them all. It is 'she' who pushes finally to kill himself, letting the sun take him, rather than harm Buffy. The Harbingers are not fighters — when Buffy finds them she easily kills two of them while the third runs away.
The Hansel & Gretel Demon appears as two young children, a boy and a girl, who seem to have been ritually murdered, with symbols drawn on their hands. It/they then slowly takes control of the minds of the townspeople, convincing them to begin a witch hunt. Joyce, possibly because she was the first to encounter them, is the leader of the Hunt; founder of MOO (Mothers Opposed to the Occult). The longer they remain under the mind control of the demon the more severe the penalties become. The children are urging the townspeople to hurt the "bad people" they way they were hurt. Eventually the punishment escalates to the traditional burning of the witches at the stake — Amy, Willow and Buffy, with Giles' books from the HS library as fuel for the fire. Not until Giles forces the demon to assume its own aspect do the vigilantes begin to realize what they were doing. The demon goes after Buffy, who taunts it, and is impaled when the stake she is tied to breaks and he runs into it.
The Sisterhood of Jheis an Apocalypse Cult of fierce female warrior demons who feast upon their vanquished foes after a victorious battle. Their sole goal is to bring about the world's destruction, and they're in town to open the Hellmouth and release the demons held prisoner behind it. They are successful in opening it, and the first demon, who we saw when the Master opened it, begins to emerge where Buffy, Faith, Angel, Giles, and Willow battle it. The members of the Sisterhood go after the Xander and the dead boys in the building. Giles is ultimately able to reclose the Hellmouth, trapping the demon, while the others take out the Sisterhood.
The Spirit of Uurthu the Restless is invoked by Jack O'Toole in the spell of revivification he performs to bring his old gang buddies back to life. No other information is available.
Balthazar is a demon, reminiscent of a cross between Jabba the Hutt and the Baron Harkonnen, who after gathering the remnants of the Eliminati to him, was run out of Sunnydale about a hundred years ago when the Mayor gained his power. He has returned because of the Mayor's impending ascension. Balthazar intends to prevent it. When the amulet is snatched from his grasp, he sends the Eliminati after the Slayers, the Watchers and anyone else who may be in his way. He is so caught up in his own megalomania, he no longer considers the consequences of this order. Buffy and Angel follow after the Giles and Wesley are abducted, and rescue them, electrocuting Balthazar in the process. It is interesting to note that while Balthazar and the Eliminati were clearly enemies of the Slayer and the Scoobies, they were in this case working toward the same goal: stopping the Mayor from ascending. It is also Balthazar's last words that alert the Scoobies that there is something very big on the horizon.
d'Hoffryn is first seen here when Anya goes to him in supplication. She wants her powers back. d'Hoffryn refuses telling her she was unworthy and careless of the powers that were granted he by the lower beings. He is unmoved by her pleading and dismisses her. d'Hoffryn is the epitome of what the high demon over the vengeance demons should be. Implacable in the face of begging, pleading, groveling or bended knee.
Olvikan (the ascended mayor) is the demon that the Mayor aspires to become. A big, has a fold out picture, snake demon that is killable once the ascension is complete. The action that destroys the demon is also the decisive action the marks the end of the HS era for the Scooby Gang. Their 'clubhouse', the library, is completely demolished, the school itself is ruined. It is time to move on.

MONSTERS
The Zombies are summoned by Ovu Mobani. They are necessary to provide a threat great enough to move the entire Scooby Gang beyond accusations and into their roles as support for Buffy. Although those roles have undergone some changes over the intervening summer when they acted in her absence.
Jack O'Toole & the boys are dead men walking. Jack's grandfather performed the spell that reanimated Jack, who in turn did the same for his old buddies. These boys were hell on wheels while they were alive, and continue their fun- loving ways after revivification. The first encounter is with Jack who projects the persona of the vicious school bully in all his glory; menacing, threatening, and leader of the gang. He's ready to strike back with violence at every incident, seeing each as a personal affront. No one bothers him or his things under threat of bodily harm. But stand up, for him/against authority, and he's the first to say you're an okay guy. Xander becomes a temporary part of the gang this way, by not ratting on Jack. Besides, Xander has the wheels. Jack and Xander make the rounds of the cemeteries, gathering the gang, all dead, all revivified … Bob, Dickie, and Parker. Xander, the wheelman, drive them where they want to go, including the hardware store, closed for business but open for crime, where they get supplies to bake a cake, not specifying what kind of cake. Xander, wanting to leave the group, is offered initiation into the group; unfortunately it consists of dying and revivification, which makes Machida- worship seem a bit tame. Xander opts out, driving off with the supplies. The boys are not happy about this, but there's nothing they can do except get more supplies. When next seen, the boys are in the boiler room of the school with the bomb they've constructed. Xander, trying to figure out where they'd be because he looked in the supply bags and saw what they contained, sees them outside the school. Getting the information about the bomb in the boiler room, he's asking Parker how to defuse it when he accidentally causes Parker's head to be ripped off by a mailbox. Xander runs into the school followed by the other three. Bob attacks Xander in the lounge, and in the ensuing fight his head is crushed by the vending machine which is tipped over by Xander. Xander gives chase to Dickie, and the two are in turn attacked by the Sisterhood of Jhe. Xander escapes, Dickie does not, leaving only Jack. Xander faces Jack down in the boiler room by the bomb, calling Jack's bluff, willing to die if necessary, turning the tables on the encounter the day before; it's Jack's turn to decide who has less fear. Jack chickens out at 2 seconds and pulls the wire. Xander leaves and Jack turns to go out through another door, vowing revenge, only to find werewolf-Oz in a feeding frenzy. With Jack we learn that is can be startling easy to reverse death, if there is no concern for the consequences — the boys personalities are restored, but only into the body as it is now. The longer the time in between death and revivification, the greater the physical deterioration. They also show us a struggle that, other than the spell to bring each back, involves only the human elements, intimidation, fear, loss of face. Jack is the tough guy, always challenging, always fierce; never caring, except for 'his' boys. When the time is right he assembles his gang and takes on the ultimate symbol of teen authority — the school, which he, interestingly enough, continues to attend even after his death. They encounter little resistance from most people, including Xander, until the stakes are increased. When confronted by true resistance and a challenge by strength of character, Jack crumbles at the last. None of the gang lasts the night. Each had an end befitting him: Parker, the one who goes along with everything, is killed by chance (mailbox); Bob, the muscle of the group is killed by something muscle can't overcome (falling vending machine); Dickie, who had the idea to destroy the school is killed by those whose intent is to destroy the world (demons of the Sisterhood of Jhe); and Jack, who responds in rage with intimidation and menace, is killed by a raging primal beast (werewolf).
Hellhounds are demon foot soldiers, developed during the Machash Wars, bred and trained solely to kill, their reward bring to feed of the brains of their foes. In this case, the demons are not only summoned, but trained to further specialization by Tucker Wells for the purpose of wreaking havoc at the Prom. They are hunted down and killed at the school before they make it into the dance. They do however give Buffy something to think about with and Angel- less prom night approaching.

MORTALITY
The Killer of the Dead poison is used by Faith on Angel. It is a mystical compound used on vampires. One of the few known cases to be cured was accomplished by draining the blood of a Slayer. The poison was intended to distract Buffy from the Mayor's graduation plans but was instead the catalyst for several important changes. Buffy fires the Council of Watchers over it. She goes after another human with the intent to kill and is very nearly successful. The antagonism of two living Slayers is brought to a climax. Angel is convinced that he and Buffy are not safe together after Buffy nearly dies to save him. Buffy becomes even more determined to stop the Mayor.

ALTERED REALITY
The WishVerse is created by Anyanka when Cordelia wishes that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale. In the WishVerse, Giles and Oz are still good guys, the White Hats, Cordelia joins their ranks. Harmony and the Sheep just try to run from trouble. Angel is still there to help the missing Buffy, but in her absence he's just 'Puppy'. The Master is evil and in control. The WishVerse Buffy is much more focused on the slaying, still not so cooperative with her Watcher, but surprisingly willing to accept Angel's help. Then there's Xander and Willow. Together. Vampires. Involved in amusing themselves and causing chaos. Willow is no longer our sweet, quiet Willow, but is quite willing to mess with everyone else there to amuse herself and cause chaos. Xander, as a vampire, admires Willow. Together they kill Cordelia. Cordelia is 'betrayed' by Xander with Willow in the WishVerse just as she was in the BuffyVerse. VampXander helps VampWillow torture Angel, an activity that Xander would gladly have participated in on more than one occasion. VampXander chose however, after his first flaming match, to just allow VampWillow to play while he watched. Like Xander he wants to be part of the action, yet someone else is the one who carries the bulk of the work. The WishVerse showed us how critical Buffy's mission is here, specifically, in Sunnydale. And it brought us Anya, who is the only one who knows what was happened in that reality.


continued...
[> Re: Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Three (2 of 2) -- LittleBit, 22:53:51 07/17/02 Wed

...continued

HUMANS
Pete and his girlfriend Debbie good friends of Scott Hope who is dating Buffy at this time. Pete is very protective of Debbie and does the "boyfriend" things like bringing her flowers which seems so sweet to everyone. However, his attention soon seen to be very possessive and his jealousy quite obvious when we see his private interactions with Debbie. He has created a serum to increase the qualities he sees as macho, and in time no longer needs it. Unfortunately, one of the effects is a raging monster that is also easily triggered by any perceived misstep on Debbie's part. Conversations are inflated into cheating relationships; professional; counseling is all right until Pete realizes Debbie actually likes the counselor rather than seeing him as totally lame. People begin turning up dead from a vicious mauling, and it is noted that each has a relationship of some sort with Debbie. Buffy and Willow go to talk to Debbie, who they find in tears, and with a nasty bruise, after her most recent encounter with Pete who was enraged after seeing Debbie meet Oz to get his biology notes. Debbie denies any problems to the two of them; meanwhile Pete is tracking down Oz with murderous intent. He finds him just after Oz is locked up for the 3rd night of the full moon. He becomes the raging Mr. Hyde again and rips the cage door off its hinges and proceeds to attack Oz. The sun goes down and Oz makes his transformation into the werewolf and the fight becomes more even. Buffy prepares to use the tranquilizer gun on Pete but Debbie disrupts her aim and Giles is shot instead. Oz runs out and Faith and Willow follow him,. Debbie runs out as well. Buffy tries to stop Pete but he gets away with Buffy in pursuit. He heads to the supply closet where he finds Debbie waiting. Debbie believes she did a good thing by keeping Buffy from shooting but Pete rages at her because he believes she told them about him. She denies it but he is too far lost in the rage and attacks her. When Buffy arrives she finds Debbie dead and is jumped from behind by Pete. As he is attacking her, Angel comes in with full vamp face and rushes Pete. Angel breaks Pete's neck ending the fight, then looks at Buffy and with slow recognition finally says her name before dropping to his knees and holding her while he sobs into her jacket. Pete showed us the dark side of an abusive relationship, with Debbie attempting to believe everything is fine and taking the blame for making him angry. Pete believed that Debbie was not satisfied with him, that he needed to enhance himself to keep her. Everything she did was viewed with suspicion. On her part Debbie tried to please Pete, downplaying any relationships she might have so that Pete wouldn't be jealous. This, of course, didn't work; every action of hers served only to increase his rage at her. More significantly, though, Pete provided the counterpoint to Angel's journey in the episode. As Pete goes from a man at the beginning to an uncontrollable raging monster, Angel's path takes the opposite direction: from uncontrollable monster to sentient man.
Jungle Bob one of the SlayerFest participants, is the 'big game' hunter of the group. For someone who was 1) invited and 2) willing to pony up some significant dollars, he certainly didn't seem very experienced at trapping and hunting sentient two-legged game. He gets caught in his own trap, loses his rifle to his prey, can't spring the trigger to release himself, and is just left out there in the woods. He rather quickly spills the information that Buffy requests, letting her know who or what else is hunting them.
the Gruenstahler Brothers are High Tech Huntsmen who are the hired guns for a mysterious computer-using 'boss'. They are wanted by Interpol for murder and terrorism. They begin tracking Buffy before the start of the contest using high powered binoculars and parabolic listening devices. It is one of the brothers who drives the limousine that picks up Cordelia and Buffy. They've planted the homing devices in the corsages that the girls put on. Their boss is able to kill the phone line from the cabin, but not before Buffy is able to leave a message for Giles. the boss directs them to Buffy and Cordelia's coordinates at the cabin and again to the high school. However, they learn there can be drawbacks to relying so completely on technology: if the transmitter isn't attached to the target, the results can be lethal.
Ethan Rayne is contracted by Trick to run the factory where the candy bars are being manufactured with an additive that seems to make everyone regress to adolescence. He is only on the periphery if the events surrounding the tribute to Lurconis, but enough to set Buffy in the right direction after she persuades him to give her the information. Once again, we see the interaction of Ethan and Ripper, but this time with a great deal more aggression on Ripper's part, enough to begin to appreciate how Rupert came to be called Ripper. Of Ethan we still learn very little other than the fact that he's good at what he does, and that we have no idea how he got out of the handcuffs after he came to in the factory.
Gwendolyn Post comes onto the scene claiming to be Faith's new Watcher, although Giles had received no word about her coming. She is a Watcher trained, but had delved too deeply into the dark magicks and ousted from the Council. We learn that a rogue Watcher can be very dangerous. She carried herself with the necessary authority to come in, begin working with Giles and Faith, use the resources of the Scooby Gang to assist her in her goal: that of locating the Glove of Myhnegon. She advises the group that the demon Lagos is in Sunnydale searching for the glove and obtains their assistance in preventing him. What she didn’t take into account was Angel's knowledge of the glove as well as its location. When she learns it is in his possession she knocks Giles out and goes in pursuit of the glove. She gets to to Angel just before he is ready to immolate the glove with the Living Flame and presents herself as an ally, then hits him in the head intending to kill him after learning the location of the glove. She sets Faith against Buffy, continues her charade to Xander and Willow when they arrive, while securing the glove for herself and invoking its power. When this happens, everyone realizes what she is doing, and in working together defeat her; she is consumed by the power she called when the glove (along with the encased arm) is severed from her. Gwendolyn Post poses two problems for the group. The first is how easily she is able to hoodwink them; all of them are able to accept her in her role as Watcher simply because she knows exactly how to act. None of them, not even Buffy suspects she is other than she say simply because she says so authoritatively. The other relates to how much trust they can really place in the Watchers' Council, which seems singularly unwilling to provided adequate information or assistance to the Slayer(s) and their Watcher.
Faith was Chosen as the Slayer when Kendra was killed by Drusilla. It is not clear where she is from, she references South Boston and Missouri, but never really gives much away about herself, or her history. She comes to Sunnydale, full of bravado, after her Watcher is killed by Kakistos seeking the one place where she knows she can have protection from his wrath; where she knows she can find Buffy and her Watcher. Faith catapults into the Scoobies lives with tremendous panache; she is at once the center of attention. She is street-wise, she's vivacious, she brings a perspective to the group quite outside their experience. She is earthy and direct, immediately setting the tone of her relationship to the group. She is admiring of Buffy by her words, dismissive by her actions. By sheer force of personality she becomes a part of the group, generally accepted, liked and admired by everyone except Buffy, who sees a different side of her. Xander is intrigued and fascinated by her, to Cordelia's dissatisfaction, Willow is welcoming, Oz accepting; Giles is impressed with her zest, Joyce with her vibrancy. Everyone enjoys her company. Faith is very likable, but not very lovable. She rarely presents anything other that a tough façade, one that protects her from the possibility of rejection. She is really extremely vulnerable, less sure of her place in the scheme of things than any of the rest of them. She's a Slayer, but there's the 'infamous Buff' already there. She's young, but never part of any of the high school life, or friendships. As she expressed it if she'd had friends like them she might've regretted dropping out. It is interesting that she chooses to refer to Buffy as infamous rather then famous, as the expressions carry such differing connotations. It shows an admiration tinged with disrespect and perhaps more than a touch of jealousy. Faith seems to want that which she takes great pains to push away; acceptance, affection, stability. Faith is especially touching when Gwendolyn Post comes, she accepts her as a Watcher and as someone who is her mentor, as it is subtly implied she did with her previous Watcher, both of whom were female. Faith felt that no matter what she did, she would never 'be' Buffy, she would never be 'the Slayer' only one of them. Eventually she slowly started to alienate the Scooby gang … Willow became jealous of her time with Buffy, Faith was Xander's 'first' and then summarily dismissed him. When she and Buffy went on their 'bad girl' walk on the wild side, though, Faith pushed the envelope farther and farther, drawing Buffy with her, until she crosses a line that Buffy cannot accept. Faith, however accidentally, kills the deputy mayor and then flees from the responsibility. Faith claims no remorse, although we see that she is not being truthful, and worse yet, places the blame for the actual killing on Buffy, when telling Giles about it. Giles understands that Faith is in a very precarious state emotionally and psychologically that will require careful handling if she is not to be further damaged. The only one who really seems to be able to reach her, though, is Angel; his own experience with coming to terms with having killed is irrefutable to Faith, and she accepts his attempts to help her deal with it. Unfortunately, the newest Watcher, Wesley, has made other arrangements; he and others employed by the Council break into Angel's place, subdue him and abduct Faith by the orders of the Council, and prepare to take her to England for discipline. Faith is not amenable to this and threatens her way out of their clutches. She goes into hiding and makes planes to run, much like she did when she came to Sunnydale. Buffy eventually tracks her down, but is interrupted by Trick who has been sent by the Mayor to eliminate the threat of the Slayers. Trick comes very close to defeating Buffy, but Faith intervenes. She and Buffy acknowledge each other's individual choices and then go their separate ways. Faith's way led straight to the Mayor's door, with an offer to join him which is readily accepted. Faith blossoms under his approval, basks in the genuine affection he shows her, and revels in the things he gives her. In return, she gives him a fierce loyalty, and a love she has very likely given to no one else. She tries to assist him by returning to the Scooby gang and keeping him apprised of their plans, but is eventually found out. She tries to bring Angel to the Mayor's side by attempting to seduce him and fails. They then use a wizard to cast out Angel's curse, and bring back Angelus; unbeknownst to them, the wizard owes Giles a favor and does not actually remove the curse. Faith is tricked into believing that Angelus has returned and the two work with the Mayor. Eventually Faith reveals enough of the Mayor's plans while gloating to an apparently captive Buffy that Angel can reveal that he is not Angelus, and end the pretense. Faith is furious, not the least because Angel as Angelus had still evaded her attempts at seduction. Faith captures Willow when the Scoobies steal the Box of Gavrok from City Hall, giving the Mayor the leverage needed to get it back. By this time Faith is immune to anything they Scoobies have to say; she's getting the acceptance and praise she has craved from the Mayor. She poisons Angel for him, just to provide a distraction for Buffy. This action triggers the explosion that had been waiting to happen: Buffy and Faith face off one on one. Buffy is doing this because she believes she needs Faith's blood to save Angel; in truth it is the inevitable conclusion of the tensions and antagonism between them. Buffy tries to kill Faith, even deals Faith a killing blow with the knife the Mayor gave Faith as a gift but Faith slips away from her thud rendering the victory an empty one. Faith is found and taken to the Hospital, where her blood loss is remedied, but the severe head trauma is not directly treatable. Buffy is also brought to the Hospital unconscious, the result of offering herself to save Angel. While they are both unconscious their Slayer minds communicate more effectively that they ever did speaking fact to face, Faith gives Buffy the clues to defeating the Mayor, and then concedes the battle to her. Faith is the little lost girl, at once vulnerable and untouchable. She boasts of needing nothing, yet when the opportunities present themselves she invariably takes them, such as Gwendolyn Post and the Mayor. She bonds to women more easily; both her original Watcher and again with Gwen Post. Faith poses an intriguing counterpoint to Buffy, showing what can happen if the Slayer begins to think that the calling places her above the rest; there's a growing callous disregard for the rules; a disrespect for others; great delight taken in doing things, taking things, simply because she can. There are sides that Faith shows us, that we can see mirrored in Buffy. Her anger, as we see her take it out on the vampires has been seen in Buffy. Her direct insistence on being her own person has been reflected in Buffy's small rebellions against her fate. Faith is Buffy's shadow self; in her we learn more of the darkness within the Slayer.
The Cafeteria Lady is the embodiment of the bad school food cliché. In this case the food can literally kill you. She sees the student body performing the same function day after day, nothing but eating, no matter what is put in front of them, until finally, deciding that the vermin must be exterminated, she schedules Mulligan Stew for the menu and has rat poison at hand [definition: Mulligan Stew — a stew made from whatever ingredients are at hand]. When that action is thwarted she cracks completely and goes after Xander with a meat cleaver. She is stopped by Buffy who knocks her out. We assume she is then arrested, but the outcome is not known. In her we have the background person; one of the staff of the school, rarely noticed yet the most substantial threat to the students as a group that we've seen. Not a vampire, not a demon, not a witch, no supernatural powers nor invoking thereof; just plain old spite and venom, with the classic method of poisoning.
The Gingerbread Mob/MOO were under the influence of the Hansel & Gretel demon. They started out as 'concerned' citizens and evolved rapidly into vigilantes. Their cause was to eliminate all things related to witchcraft and mysticism; their goal to rid Sunnydale of the bad people. They caused Giles' books to removed from the library as unsuitable material. Buffy's mother and Willow's mother each determined that the other's daughter was a bad influence on their own. The contrast between Joyce and Sheila was marked. Where Joyce was involved in Buffy's life and had indeed joined her on patrol to learn firsthand what it was about, Sheila is so far removed from Willow's life that she doesn't even know her daughter's current appearance. Joyce allows Buffy the freedom to go on patrol and try to figure things out; Sheila confines Willow to her room and removes all sources of outside interaction. Eventually though the demon brings them to the point where only the purging of the evil will suffice, which leads to the capture of Buffy, Willow and Amy. They are tied to stakes and the confiscated book are piled around them in preparation for a ritual burning at the stake. The mob is oblivious to the import of their actions and when the demon is unmasked, they are horrified at what almost occurred. we are given a rare glance into Willow's homelife when we witness her encounters with Sheila. It is interesting to note that not everyone is affected by the demons mind control, and that the ones who are not are those who know the nature of Sunnydale and the Hellmouth. It is also intriguing to note that in the original fairy tale, the children are put out to die by their father and stepmother on more then one occasion. The demon has arranged things so that what is actually happening is the adults putting the children to death. Buffy is truly questions the point of her slaying, never winning, never even getting ahead of the game. Buffy also faces an opponent who has manipulated things so that the ones physically causing the harm are humans, no longer acting with free will and among them is her mother who conspires to kill her. They must destroy the evil while preserving the humanity.
The Watcher's Council is a group whose traditional role has been to identify, train and assist the Slayer in carrying out her duties. Giles is a member of this council. As Buffy's 18th birthday approached, Quentin Travers comes to Sunnydale with a small group to prepare for the traditional testing of the Slayer upon her turning 18. As part of the preparation, she is given an organic compound without her knowledge that slows her reflexes and suppresses adrenaline to prevent her from accessing her Slayer abilities. Giles, as her Watcher, is responsible for accomplishing this, although he doesn't like it; he is under strict orders that Buffy not know what is being done. Once she is sufficiently weakened, she will face a vampire who has been prepared for her — Zachary Kralik, who was criminally insane before his vamping. Kralik's handler, Blair, however, didn't exercise sufficient caution when giving him his medicine and was caught and killed by Kralik. The other handler, Hobson, was turned by him. In their arrogance the Council never took into consideration that this could happen. Kralik went in search of the Slayer, and very nearly catches Buffy, who runs from him. Giles is looking for her because he saw what happened to Blair and rescues her. Kralik then goes after Joyce and captures her, using her as bait. Buffy takes the bait, now knowing why her strength is so impaired. When Quentin shows up in Giles' office, he is unconcerned about the turn of events. His concern is only that Buffy has entered the house, and if she survives, she'll have demonstrated that she is worthy to be the Slayer. If not, well there's Faith. Giles is furious and goes to assist Buffy. Between them they kill both Hobson and Kralik and release Joyce. After all this In their arrogance, the Council disregards any considerations outside those of their own goals. They weaken the Slayer for their 'cruciamentum' then send her on out to patrol. When Kralik breaks loose and is out in Sunnydale, no effort is made to find him. Kralik kidnaps Buffy's mother, drawing her to the house where there are no safeguards left. Maybe Quentin is able to rationalize the potential death of the Slayer by saying she wasn't sufficient for the job, but had Buffy failed, how was he going to justify Joyce's death? When Giles intervenes and is instrumental in preventing Joyce's death, the only response the Council has is to fire him because he did not keep his distance from the situation. Of all the Council, Giles is the only one to approach the situation with compassion and humanity, stating his abhorrence of the test, of the secrecy, and of the part he is required to play. Having sent the Watcher to train the Slayer, and Buffy having developed a trust in Giles, for training, for information, for counsel, Giles is now to offer no information at a time it could cost Buffy her life on patrol. He does suggest not patrolling while she is feeling poorly, but is prevented from being any more specific. Wesley Wyndham Price is sent to be Buffy's Watcher after Giles' removal, an overly-intellectual, self- important, pompous young Watcher who believes everything the Council has told him and adheres closely to the Council's rules. He believes that his 'field experience' against vampires in controlled circumstances gives him the necessary knowledge of the foes faced by the Slayer. Wesley is never really given much of a chance by either Buffy or Faith, both of whom offered him no respect and delighted in making his life miserable in many tiny ways as well as disregarding him rather completely in matters of any importance. When Wesley informs the Council about Faith's killing of Deputy Mayor Allan Finch, their response is to peremptorily arrest her on the order of the Watcher's Council's of Britain and prepare to take her to England to accept the judgment of the disciplinary committee. Giles surmises that they will lock her away for a long time, but this is not likely because the Slayer line passes through Faith. If she is locked away and something happens to Buffy, Faith would either have to be released or killed to have an active Slayer. The Council is far more likely to take the expedient route, and take the new Slayer in hand. The Council may once have been an force for good but it's stasis and inability to make any adjustment to the realities of the world has changed it to a group that orders lives according to its own convenience, all the while feeling quite superior to the poor ordinary person whose import is so much less than their own. It is this very attitude that ultimately renders their pronouncements regarding the Slayer's fitness and Giles' unfitness moot; Buffy fires them and they become a Watcher's Council with no Slayer. To Wesley's credit, he is capable of seeing that the battle before them must be won and puts himself at Buffy's disposal.
Tucker Wells is a classmate of the Scooby gang who decides to disrupt the Prom with a little chaos and mass murder apparently because a girl he asked out turned him down. He has the ability to summon demons, choosing to bring for a group of hellhounds, demons bred for killing. He shows them teen movies with general formal dance attire and trappings, training them to attack anyone in that attire. He gives Buffy a welcome distraction from her romantic woes, while showing, once again that the source of the evil to be fought can spring from the most mundane causes.
And last but not least, Principal Snyder continues his campaign of harassment. He actively tries to keep Buffy out of school, and takes great glee in making this point quite clear. His involvement in the Mayor's plans becomes more and more evident with time, although he is clearly not in the Mayor's confidence but only one of his minions. He arranges for the band candy to be distributed by all of the students simply by making it a requirement [I should have been so lucky]. The Mayor is selected as commencement speaker for graduation. But something different occurs this season with him as well. Under the influence of the band candy, from which he is apparently not advised to abstain, he gives us a glimpse into his character. He was the guy who didn't belong and didn't know it. He wanted to hang with the kids he saw as cool, and interestingly enough, this was the Scooby gang. He attached himself to Buffy, Willow and Oz, running after them when they left him at the Bronze, trying to be cool and failing miserably. He boasts about his 'achievements' (he shook the Mayor's hand — twice) in an attempt to make the others see him as important. He hits on Joyce quite ineptly. Principal Snyder is constantly rejected by the ones he wants to emulate even now. And the ones he's the most contemptuous of as the principal are the ones he most wanted to be at their age.



This season's bad brought evil from authority figures in many venues: the Watcher's Council, The Mayor, parents, and the school staff. In all of these cases the authority figure is not simply using its power to control things, but is actively attempting to kill Buffy, as well as others. The Watcher's Council puts Buffy into a situation that could very easily result in her death, endangering her mother and the population of Sunnydale as well. The Mayor wants her out of the way initially, assigning Trick, among others, to kill her, but after her fight with Faith takes matters into his own hands and very nearly succeeds in smothering Buffy when he finds her vulnerable. The parents are willing to burn their children at the stake 'for their own good'. And the cafeteria lady comes very close to poisoning a good percentage of the student body. All of these people are expected to behave in a manner befitting the trust that is implicitly given them; all betray that trust. In only one case, that of the parents, is the behavior excusable because of outside influences. Many of the little bads this season are directly or indirectly linked to one of these authorities. The Mayor hires Trick, who in turn brings Ethan Rayne back into the picture. Balthazar returns to challenge the Mayor again, bringing with him El Eliminati. Lurconis is a demon to whom the Mayor made promises in return for power. Principal Snyder remains in charge of the high school because the Mayor wants it. He seduces Faith to his cause, offering what no one else does: he accepts her for herself. He obtains the Killer of the Dead poison that nearly kills Angel. And he ascends into Olvikan, a full strength demon. The Watcher's Council is far from innocent this season. Their carelessness releases Zachary Kralik on an unsuspecting Sunnydale. Gwendolyn Post is trained by them, and knows that Faith is minus a Watcher, so if she was kicked out by the Council it was quite recently. The Council seemed to think that the Council member with the least need- to-know was the one who had both the current Slayers under his charge, which was an unprecedented situation. They mishandled Faith's situation so badly that instead of helping her come to terms with a mistake, they assured that she turn as far away from them as possible. Anyanka is significant this season in that she was not only responsible for the WishVerse, and for the events in Dopplegangland, she is also instrumental in helping them to know what they are facing in the Mayor's asxension. In this third year we see a new layer of the evil in Sunnydale; it is not random vampires and demons, it is not the occasional vampire or demon who has organized their efforts, but the entire local government is built to encourage demonic activity and allow access to the mystical energy of the Hellmouth. The entire existence of Sunnydale is due to the Mayor and his ambitions. He has arranged for the town to flourish, consorts with demons, keeps the populace in the dark, and generally treats Sunnydale as his own private playground. And the Mayor knows how to play.

Your feedback is welcomed!
[> [> Keeping it alive until I get a chance to read! Looks great! -- ponygirl, 07:07:18 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> Great Post! Lot's to ponder here -- shadowkat, 09:28:11 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> [> Thank you! (and thank you for giving it a little longer life) -- LittleBit, 09:47:39 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> Hey Rob! I hope you're saving all these for your annotations. -- Sophist, 09:35:08 07/18/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Three (2 of 2) -- ponygirl, 10:41:45 07/18/02 Thu

Wow! That was great LittleBit! And I do hope that these get saved somewhere by Rob or someone else -- it's an excellent reference! Reading over your posts makes me realize how big the anti-authority theme was in s3, from the Mayor to the CoW to MOO to the parental authority turned upside down in Band Candy to Gwennie Post it was just a bad year for putting your trust in the people in charge. It all led of course to the necessity of Buffy and the Sunnydale students rising up against this authority and taking responsibility for their own defence.
[> [> Wow! Had to print this for later..... -- aliera, 14:06:51 07/18/02 Thu

[> Though I'd see if it could make it all the way to the evening -- LittleBit, 15:43:34 07/18/02 Thu

[> Silly little quibble -- Dead Soul, 17:05:41 07/18/02 Thu

I love these - they really bring the seasons back to life for me as I stagnate here at work.

One thing though, which is probably just a difference in interpretation. I thought Spike was after the spell in the Magic Shop to use on Angel because he blamed Angel for everything going so wrong in the first place. I got this impression from his monologue while spying on Angel in the mansion just before he passes out in the couryard.

Admittedly, I haven't looked at shooting scripts or anything like that.

JMHO,

Dead Soul
[> [> Re: Silly little quibble -- LittleBit, 17:36:45 07/18/02 Thu

Well, DS, darn it --- you're right. I went and re-read the transcript and it is definitely Angel he's focused on.

Thanks for pointing it out!!

LB
[> [> [> Re: Silly little quibble -- Dead Soul, 20:51:41 07/18/02 Thu

Yay! I'm right! It happens so infrequently.

Dead Soul (happy not to be eating crow - again)
[> Giles and Betrayal by Authority Figures (Season 3/6 parallel) -- cjl, 22:47:20 07/18/02 Thu

Huh. Again with the threes in the Buffyverse -- 1, 4, 7 with new beginnings, the mirroring of 2 and 5, and now the link between 3 and 6: in Season 3, the gang's viewpoint broadened from their inner circle to the community of Sunnydale, where they found entirely new levels of menace from the authority figures they had taken for granted their entire lives.

The perfect symbol of this threat, of course, was Giles. Giles was the authority figure everyone trusted without question despite his checkered past--and perhaps even BECAUSE of his checkered past. The confrontation with his wicked days in Oxford only brought him closer to Buffy and the gang because they saw he was a human being, despite all his erudition.

How much more shocking, then, when Giles actually went through with the Cruciamentum--simultaneously submitting to the Council's worst tendencies and abusing his authority with Buffy.

In a strange, sideways fashion, this theme is picked up again in Season 6, after Giles has left, and the gang is forced to define their relationship to the community on their own. Distracted as they are by their own personal problems, and taking their cue from an emotionally distant Buffy, Sunnydale gets royally screwed over. For the S6 Scoobys, patrolling was a perfunctory task at best and ignored at worst; there was all sorts of irresponsible mojo flying around everywhere, and the one good witch who could stop it was trying to distance herself from the carnage; and the Legion of Dorkness--don't get me started. If Buffy and the gang had their heads screwed on straight for two seconds, those guys would have been toast right after Life Serial. But the Scoobs keep letting the nerds slip under the radar, kept brushing them away like evil lint instead of taking them seriously, and Warren's monomania had room to grow and thrive. We know where that led. The SG's irresponsibility nearly set armageddon in motion.

So, just like Season 3, the authority figures, the people responsible for the safety of the community, screwed up.

In this case, though, the Gang had no one to blame but themselves.
Musings about S7 BB (spoilers and wild speculation for S7) -- Off-kilter, 04:11:39 07/18/02 Thu

I’ve been reading spoilers about several Big and Little Bads coming back for appearances next season. Notably, the Master, Faith, and Glory have been cited as being on the books for Season 7 at some point or another. A couple of sources seem to think that this is indicative of a possible Shape-shifter as the Big Bad of next season and it seems possible. But if JW has said that the next BB will be “Everyones worst nightmare,” why do we assume he didn’t mean that literally?

In NA we had a demon that morphed reality for one person-- Buffy. Not sure if he was able to control this reality or if Buffy was creating her own world. But if we have one demon able to do this, why not another? One that can produce an aura that will make a person visualize their own personal demons inside. Much like Fear, Itself except played out over an entire season. I think this is a much more likely type of BB than a shape-shifter ala Terminator 2 bad guy.

This could even encompass AB coming back as a Tara look- alike without *being* Tara.

If someone else came up with this theory already and I missed it, I apologize profusely. Please poke holes in my little idea!
[> Poke! -- NightRepair, 05:02:37 07/18/02 Thu

[> Re: Musings about S7 BB (spoilers and wild spe