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Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- ZachsMind, 19:17:29 07/17/03 Thu

We watched our favorite little Scoobies grow up on the little screen, from snot nosed freshman to young adults ready to face the world. Even in his own way the man behind Giles grew up before our eyes. Well alright actually he de-aged before our eyes, going from a crotchety old man into an amazingly hip and snazzy favorite uncle type who could sing anything from James Taylor to Tim Curry. Each in their own way matured and developed before our eyes into the wonderful people they are now. Okay. So in reality Nick Brendon had already graduated high school when he got the job of Xander. And we'll never really know how old Alyson Hannigan is will we? I mean she'll claim to be twenty *clears throat* until she's older than Lucille Ball, won't she? And who would argue with her? And we can be upset they're leaving the world of Buffy to move on and do their own thing, or we can thank them for the time they shared, think warm positive energies in their general direction and send them on their merry way.

And their merry way, for some of them at least, is the big silver screen. Only, I wouldn't wish sequels of Scooby Doo or Darkness Falls on my worst enemy. So let's have a thread where each person who cares to participate thinks up much better vehicles for their favorite Scoobies. Think of movie ideas so far removed from who they've been in past performances that it'd be the best way for them to break potential typecasting and get as far away from Sunnydale as they can possibly get. I'll start.

I just got done watching Breakfast At Tiffany's on DVD and desite the fact that this is one of those movies I believe they should never remake because how can anyone possibly improve upon Audrey Hepburn, at the same time there are moments in that film where God help me but I coulda sworn Sarah Michele Gellar could pull it off. I'm not suggesting they do Breakfast At Tiffany's in the same exact way it was orignally done. I think they should take the same script and set it in modern day New York. Post Nine Eleven New York. Start it with Gellar in the same outfit as Ms. Hepburn standing in front of Tiffany's, but the overall feel would be a little darker and more desperate. You couldn't lose the humor, but the look would have to be more real. Naturally, Freddie Prinze Jr. would play George Peppard's role of "Fred" in the film. That's fitting, although personally I'd prefer seeing David Boreanaz playing Paul Varjak. Still, Gellar married Prinze, and we want to think of ideas that would remove her from the BuffyVerse not bring her closer towards it, so Freddi as Fred it is.

So that's one idea. Now, you don't have to think of movies that have already been made. It's just that I find that's easier I think. It's easier to convey to people in less words than trying to describe the movie idea in detail.

Like suggest Anthony Stewart Head in a motion picture remake of the tv series The Prisoner. He'd be ideal as Number Six. And then get Sean Connery to fulfill the role of Number Two, so long as he plays the role with as much bravado and joy as Leo McKern. Can you imagine? ASH and Sir Connery on screen at the same time? It's enough sheer acting talent to brown out major metropolitan cities. It'd be better than Lawrence Olivier and Alec Guinness on the same stage. People would have heart attacks.

Maybe have Nick Brendon as Willie Wonka in Tim Burton's Charlie & The Chocolate Factory. That'd be deliciously hilarious. Who better than Brendon to reprise Wilder's role? Brendon would bring a wit and a charm and a childlike innocence. But no. Burton will probably go with Christopher Walken. The snake. (Burton. Not Walken.)

I'm drawing a blank at the moment thinking of the perfect vehicle for Hannigan. Somebody help me out. God, we can't possibly have her doing American Pie Four. Somebody make that illegal before they commit it to celluloid I'm begging here. Give Alyson something she can really sink her teeth into. Something worthy of... Ooh.. Would she make a better Holly Golightly? Hrmm... Actually if you could somehow merge Hannigan & Gellar together I think you'd get Audrey Hepburn. Either that or a complete and utter mess like in The Fly Part Two *shudder*

[> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- SKPE, 20:13:45 07/17/03 Thu

Like your idea of Gellar in the holly go lightly part but Freddy reprising Peppard's role? Freddy hasn't got the acting chops to do a remake of 'A TEAM'. As for Alison how about a tennisy willams play. Maybe 'glass menagerie' or 'rose tattoo'?

[> [> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- Tyreseus, 23:05:06 07/18/03 Fri

Ooh, like the idea of AH in a Williams play, although I was drifting more towards a period piece along the lines of Sense and Sensability or Jane Eyre. I have enough faith in little red's acting to think she'd do well in something from that era - plus it'll probably give her a chance at some point to look vulnerable and cry.

[> [> [> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- Pathfinder, 10:29:26 07/19/03 Sat

I think AH could be perfect in a period piece - maybe a Henry James adaptation.
Or perhaps something a little edgier, along the lines of "Requiem for a Dream".

[> [> [> [> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- skpe, 17:26:52 07/19/03 Sat

If you want something darker how about JM and AH in a remake of 'The days of wine and roses'. That would give AH another cut at the addiction theme.

[> [> [> [> [> Perfect! -- Pathfinder, 05:10:57 07/20/03 Sun

Ooh, I like that. Whatever your take on the shifting magic metaphor in season 6, I thought AH did a pretty damn good job with the execution of the addiction theme.

She and JM were always good when allowed to play off each other on "Buffy". That was one of the things I missed during the show's last two seasons, since JM's character didn't seem to have any meaningful interaction with other core characters aside from Buffy anymore (which always seemed like a waste because JM could be so good at reacting to his fellow actors, but that's a whole other story...).

So perhaps we could get JM and AH in the lead roles, with Joss Whedon directing and putting his Jossian spin on the script, dialogue-wise. Has definite possibilities. I would love to see Hannigan get a big screen role she could really sink her teeth into, so to speak.

[> [> You're absolutely right... -- ZachsMind, 20:58:31 07/17/03 Thu

I have to admit you're right. I'd assume Gellar would want to do the remake with Prinze, but objectively he couldn't play the part. I mean, objectively he couldn't play the Fred on Scooby Doo convincingly. I wouldn't want him ruining the remake. It'd be a delicate manner.

Whereas David would be perfect in the role. It's rather typecastingy for him. I mean, he broods well which is a requirement. He is very good at looking uncomfortable at parties. He has a look that's believable for a male prostitute. I'm not sure if that's a compliment for him or not, but Boreanaz would be ideal as Paul/Fred.

In fact, quite frankly, I'm surprised no one's tried this, with all the other remakes in the past decade. It'd be nice for once to see a remake that actually makes sense, as opposed to Shelly Long as Mrs. Brady? What drugs were those people on, coming up with that? SMG and David Boreanaz in Breakfast At Tiffany's. It's a natural.

And hey! The Buddy Ebsen role? Get that guy who played Tara's father in the episode "Family." However, although the party scene would be an ideal opportunity for cameo roles for other Whedon alumni, it'd be too tricky because a vehicle like this would be an attempt to allow SMG to spread her wings and prove her versatility as an actress. I'm afraid even having her romantic lead in Buffy play opposite her in this would be too much. Shame though. Their chemistry onscreen is so darn tangible.

But y'know whut? If Jane Espenson did a scan of the script and introduced her own wit and charm to the overall piece? If anyone in Hollywood could improve upon the original script it'd be her.

[> [> [> Bewitched -- MsGiles, 09:02:48 07/18/03 Fri

loved that series. So the naughties remake has AH the suburban witch twitching her nose, sober gay partner AB trying to clear up her messes and square it with the boss (grumpy ASH) and wacky auntie Amy flying in on her broomstick to mess things up again

[> [> [> [> Re: Bewitched -- skpe, 10:47:14 07/18/03 Fri

Yes and MT to play the part of 'Tamatha'

Connor vs Forrest -- JBone, 20:13:23 07/17/03 Thu

Buffy. I like that. The girl's so hot, she's Buffy.

http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html

yesterdays results

[> Battle of the Whiny Losers! -- ApOpHiS, 21:00:15 07/17/03 Thu

Now, on a purely physical level, Connor easily takes Forest. That's boring, however. Ergo, this contest will be decided by who can out whine whom. Forest starts strong with a lengthy diatribe about how his best friend used to follow orders until he discovered girls. However, Connor's X-Treme father issues and Oedipal angst, combined with his "stranger in a strange land" frustration, quickly overpowers the zombie commando. Forest gets a few "repressed homosexuality for Riley" jabs in, but by this point, it's merely accademic. Connor leaves a beaten and weeping Forest to go and brood on a rooftop.

[> [> Masq is gonna hurt you! You in TROUB-LE! -- HonorH, 21:18:47 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> [> I only insult because I love... -- ApOpHiS, 22:42:52 07/17/03 Thu

... and because it makes me feel better about my own shortcomings by bringing others down to my level.

[> So Connor it's not even funny. -- HonorH, 21:20:38 07/17/03 Thu

Forrest was fairly cool, yes, but up against the man-boy, bad-hair-day, chronically-pissed son of Angel? Mulch.

'Sides, Connor's prettier.

[> [> Way prettier! -- Dead (and laconic as usual) Soul, 21:22:14 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> Go my boy!! -- Masq, 23:08:34 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Much as i hate to disagree... -- Just George, 23:42:35 07/17/03 Thu

Normally Honor H. is my guiding light, but this time?

No, I must disagree.

Forrest kicked rear! He got more fun as he got nastier. He ended up as a cool cyber demonoid (I loved his wagging finger).

Conner started cool, with his great Matrix entry. But he got less fun as he got whinier.

I may not win, but I believe in the rightness of my ideals.

-JG

[> [> [> *Sigh* Poor Connor. He's taken over from Dawn. -- HonorH, 07:08:06 07/18/03 Fri

In the "But he whiiiiines!" category, that is. And his life manages to suck worse than hers, even.

[> [> [> [> Re: *Sigh* Poor Connor. He's taken over from Dawn. -- Just George, 16:12:50 07/18/03 Fri

Conner has good reason to whine.
His parents and pseudo parents made mistakes.
He grew up in a bad neighborhood.
He never went to a nurturing school.
I'll bet he didn't even get enough hugs.

So, I don't blame Conner for whining.
I mean I Blame him.
But I don't BLAME him. Get it?

I just liked Forest better.
(Visualizing Cyberdemonoid Forest wagging his finger.)
Cool.

-George

[> J-Bone, i was down for a while. How are we doing comments? -- Rochefort, 21:46:04 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> Sorry, I should have mentioned... -- Jay, 22:02:27 07/17/03 Thu

Post them here for now. This is starting to look permanent, but I'm still going to try to find another alternative this weekend. If anyone has any ideas?...

[> Re: Connor vs Forrest -- MaeveRigan, 06:06:19 07/18/03 Fri

Gah! Connor really needs a good spanking to make him sit up and pay attention, but sadly, Forrest is not the man to give it to him.

Wait, could it be Connor vs. Demon-Cyborg-Forrest? That contest might last a little longer, but Connor would still come out on top. Sorry.

Next round, please.

[> Re: Connor vs Forrest -- cjl, 07:13:17 07/18/03 Fri

As we started S4, I liked Forrest a lot. He was a serious student, but he hung out with his buds, reeled off a number of laugh-out-loud lines about the Buffster, and seemed to have a healthy attitude about school, friends, love, demon killing--you know, real life in general. Then, Riley and Buffy Got Involved, and as the season wore on, Forrest sounded more and more like Riley's pissy ex-girlfriend. Like Harmony and vampirism, Forrest's demonization was an improvement.

Connor, on the other hand, was a one-man Angst Machine (with Angel and Darla as parents, how could he be anything else?), and as Tim Minear so painfully drove "Home," he was probably doomed from birth. It's a tribute to Vincent Kartheiser's acting (and Boreanaz' paternal instincts) that Angel fans are almost willing to overlook our hero betraying every last one of his principles if it means Connor will be happy. My vote goes to Connor. The kid deserves every break he can get.

[> Voting for Connor -- KdS, 10:12:10 07/18/03 Fri

I know some people hate him with a passion, but Connor's arc was for me one of the most moving of any ME character. By contrast, all Forrest had going for him was a silly name and a deep confusion about his sexual orientation.

Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.5 (The Master's Apprentice) -- manwitch, 21:50:32 07/17/03 Thu

In terms of Buffy's spiritual journey, the plot in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date is pretty straightforward. Buffy wants a normal life, not the life of responsibility and sacrifice that being the Slayer would force upon her. That normalcy that she wants is shown in her desire to have a normal social life, specifically to date Owen, and the responsibility and sacrifice are shown in her ultimate realization that she doesn't live in the normal world, that her flirtations with normalcy are a threat to those around her, and that she must live life without Owen. As Owen says to her, "there are more important things than dating," and in Buffy's case that is certainly true, and she consciously acknowledges this by the end of the episode.

Other characters help to reinforce this message in a less conscious way. A parallel is clearly drawn between Owen and Angel. Both are mysterious brooders. And both have grabbed Buffy's attention. They have both grabbed Cordelia's attention as well. Cordelia, as we have already seen in earlier episodes, is pretty much what Buffy used to be, what she was in L.A. Cordelia is what Buffy was before she became aware of her spiritual calling. So we might think of Cordelia as Buffy without the spiritual commitment. As such, Cordelia has no chance at Angel, who doesn't even notice her. Angel is himself an emissary from the world of the spirit and represents Buffy's desire for that commitment. What Buffy sees in Angel is the aspect of that world that she wants. And that world is in turn interested in Buffy. It wants her to partake of it. So Angel, representing that world, is slightly jealous and put out that Buffy would be on a date with Owen. Angel recognizes, as Buffy eventually will, that dating Owen is the avoidance of that spiritual commitment. Owen is a tourist in that world, every bit as much as Buffy is a tourist in Emily Dickenson. And ultimately, Owen is judged, and found wanting. The message is, again, that Buffy must not simply seek the trappings of a normal social life, but must embrace her spiritual social life, if you will. She must recognize that her social life must be shaped by her spiritual commitment, not the other way around. And by the end of the episode, she is starting to recognize exactly this.

But this message is even more forcefully presented. At the start of the episode we see Buffy battling a vampire. After she successfully dispatches him, Giles appears and critiques, rather negatively, her performance. We see him quite explicitly in his "trainer" role. He is being the "official" watcher, exercising authority over Buffy as she practices and learns. This image of control is double-layered, both as Giles the Watcher, representing the master of this craft, directs and controls Buffy's learning of it, and as Giles representing "mind" attempts to control the body. The mind always thinks its in charge, even though it may not be. Buffy will always bristle at Giles when he is in this mode. If he's lucky, she'll just be flippant, like she was in this episode. But Buffy will listen to him and respect him when he displays a more fatherly touch, as he does at the end of the episode. He discusses with her his own father, how he himself learned that he too would be denied a "normal" life. He acknowledges to her that we "feel" our way, that conscious control, training and rules will not always be the answer. And he compliments her, finally, telling her that she's doing a pretty good job. So we see a duality to the Giles/Buffy relationships. Giles as authoritarian teacher with Buffy as developing learner, and also Giles as compassionate father with Buffy as maturing child.

After Buffy slays that vampire in the teaser, Giles finds a ring the vamp left behind, and after enduring some more of Buffy's flippancy, he says he must go and consult his books. CUT TO a big dusty book drops down loudly on some surface or other, and The Master opens it and begins to read from the prophecy. So Giles, having just been in the role of master to Buffy's learner, or apprentice, goes to consult his books and we see immediately The Master consulting his books. A parallel is strongly suggested here between The Master and Giles. And the prophecy is that in a time of crisis will come the Anointed. I believe the religious reference of the phrase Anointed One is the chosen one, the messiah, that Christians believe to be Christ. And the purpose of Christ is to bring us back into God's grace through a life of spiritual commitment. Now I believe Jesus's father was a carpenter, and it was expected that Jesus would follow in the family business. Jesus would be expected to learn the trade from his father. Joseph would be the master, Jesus the apprentice. The Master/Apprentice institution is possibly the second oldest professional institution. But Jesus did not see his craft as carpentry. When he said, at the age of twelve, "I must be about my father's business," he wasn't talking about Joseph's carpentry company. Jesus was more concerned with mastering the spiritual craft, and the father he referred to was his spiritual father, the depth and source of his spiritual power. So we see this duality again with Jesus. We have the master carpenter Joseph and the carpenter's apprentice Jesus, and we also have the spiritual father Yahweh and the son of God Jesus. Master/father, apprentice/child.

And returning to Buffy, we find that the Anointed One, about whom all we know is that he is a warrior, turns out to be a child. So The Master also takes on a fatherly role with the child as his apprentice. Now, its my personal opinion that there are no vampires, so when I see one like The Master I say to myself that something that is real to me is being characterized here as a vampire for some specific reason. And in this case I think that The Master is the personification of the depth and source of our spiritual power, specifically Buffy's spiritual power. Normally you would think of that as a good thing. But where Buffy wants a normal life, where she is resistant to embracing this spiritual calling, the depth and source of her own spiritual power will seem terrifying to her. It will seem like a monster, poised to kill and destroy that normalcy she believes herself to want. But we see that the Anointed One, the child, the warrior, is not afraid, and is destined ultimately to lead Buffy, the Chosen One, the child, the warrior, to The Master.

So the episode is giving the viewers an all-out barrage of metaphors, all saying that Buffy's task is to be about her father's business, to master her spiritual commitment, and that this mastery will not take place solely at the level of consciousness. She will feel her way to this mastery, led to her destiny by her kindness and compassion, by her responsibility to and sacrifices for others, not by following rules and orders.

At least, that seems to be what this episode is suggesting will happen. I really enjoyed it. Great performances, great language, and really well filmed/edited. I think its pretty easily the best so far.

The Top Ten Percent (so far)

1. Never Kill a Boy on the First Date
2. Witch
3. Welcome to the Hellmouth
4. Teachers Pet
5. The Harvest
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.

[> Re: Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.5 (The Master's Apprentice) -- Dochawk, 22:34:58 07/17/03 Thu

You continue to make me look at episodes differently. Thanks for that.

[> mm, chewy thoughts -- MsGiles, 08:48:28 07/18/03 Fri

I like Angel as an emissary from the world of the spirit, also the Giles/Master parallels, with Buffy's push/pull relationship with Giles. But Buffy does kill the Master, and this is not a denial but an acknowledgment of her calling (or am I being too literal?)

[> So what do you make of.. -- Random, 09:00:08 07/18/03 Fri

the parallel between Giles and the Master? Both are living (or at least animate) representations of the old ways. Giles is, at the start, an embodiment of the Council and its traditions (I still love his lines in Restless: "This is the way women and men have behaved since the beginning...before time.") And the Master is a quasi-religious figure, the very picture of an unholy faith and ritual that takes itself entirely too seriously and will be supplanted by the bleached one just as Giles, as a representative of the WC, will be supplanted by Buffy (and, to some extent, Faith.) It is in the development of the first season that we can see the shape of things to come. One of the basic premises of the show is the rebellion of the new order against the old (more on that later, I'm visualizing a post on that topic).

What else do people think about the paralleling of Giles and the Master?

[> [> Perhaps -- Sophist, 10:14:27 07/18/03 Fri

we could think of Buffy's defeat of the Master as a defeat of that aspect of Giles which represents the older, patriarchal view. This leaves that part of Giles we see in, say, Innocence -- the true father figure.

Not sure how this holds up. Still thinking about it.

[> [> I'm waiting until Prophecy Girl -- Diana, 09:04:19 07/19/03 Sat

To get into all the parallels drawn between Master and Giles. That episode really hits it head on, especially with the way the scenes are edited. I love how they are contrasted and how Joss' ultimate message about power isn't just shown with Buffy.

I would say that rather than the paralles between Master and Giles, what is important is how they contrast.

Just something brief to help preserve the thread.

[> [> Re: So what do you make of.. -- Alison, 13:07:20 07/18/03 Fri

The Master seems to be symbolic of Buffy's fear of men, abandonment, and how that relates to sex. People on the board have noted before how Prophecy Girl can be seen as a girl losing her virginity. It's not a romantic look at the event, but rather explores Buffy's terror. Her partner in the act is a murderous monster. The Master is also contrasted with Giles, Buffy's father figure. In WSWB, Buffy dreams that Giles attempts to kill her, and underneath his fatherly visage he is revealed to be the Master. My thoughts on this are sort of scattered, but Buffy's "daddy issues" are especially overt in early seasons and in her relationship with Angel. The Master ties together her fear of her father(s), and of a sexual relationship. He embodies all her fears of men. Does this make any sense?

[> Re: Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.5 (The Master's Apprentice) -- Darby, 10:40:44 07/18/03 Fri

I would characterize Giles more as a mentor than either a master or a father - what he establishes with Buffy is a partnership that each contributes to according to their strengths.

Granted that monsters on Buffy are representative of other things, but sometimes isn't Godzilla just Godzilla?

The parallels between Cordelia and the Buffy-that-had-been supports thematically the attraction Angel feels for Cordy after her own Journey down Champion Way, except that the Angel-Buffy connection is of that godawful "Love at First Sight," with compatibility ignored. But once Angel got used to loving Buffy, wouldn't the Buffylike arc in Cordy attract his attention? Aren't we often attracted to folks who echo our great loves?

London meet last night -- KdS, 02:48:33 07/19/03 Sat

Last night's London ATPO meet was a great success. I can now add faces to three more of the names on ATPO - Kenny, Tchaikovsky, and Abby. The restaurant was fine, despite a very wobbly table and certain people getting crammed into corners. A good three hours of conversation covered popular music (Kenny discovering the paradox that obscure American indie bands are usually far better known in the UK than the US), the unspeakable evil of the Oxford Union, fears and hopes for AtS S5, the superiority of Jasmine over the FE, the more dubious uses of Photoshop, bibleslash, the vital difference between ice cream and gelato, why the UK Hellmouth must be in Hackney, and the injustice of employers who don't understand how vital BtVS debate is to a working day. Rahael also came up with the finest suggestion for improving Chosen I have heard so far. Unfortunately nobody had a camera, so I'll have to disappoint some of you :-(

[> Where are you? (again) -- O'Cailleagh, 06:47:42 07/19/03 Sat

Sounds like a fun time was had by all!

I was just thinking, not many Brits answered the last 'where are you' post, and I was sure we had more.
Maybe if we could find out where everyone is based, we could come up with a meeting place that is more or less equidistant from us all. I'm sure that many more people (including myself!) would be able to get to one if it were more central to everyone.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> General Call, with a list -- Darby, 07:24:41 07/19/03 Sat

You're right, and I tried to wedge the last one in among the last episodes, when I figured traffic would be high, but it got pushed off the board fairly quickly.

For newbies, we periodically ask where you are, for our own idle curiosity and the possibilities of get-togethers. You just need to put it up as a subject line, and I'll add you to the list.

The list below was begun, I think, at the end of 2001, so there are folks on it who are probably not around any more. Don't assume that just because you don't recognize a name that the person has faded into the ethernet - this is the sort of list that brings lurkers out of the shadows momentarily as well.

The list up to now...

A8 - Baghdad by the Bay (SF)
agent156 - Dallas, Texas
Akita - SE Pennsylvania, Upper Bucks County
aliera - Albany, New York
anom - New York City
Aquitaine - West Island of Montreal
Arethusa - Houston, Texas
Arya_Stark - Central Connecticut
AurraSing - In the southeast Kootenays (British Columbia)
bell456 - Urbana, Illinois
Belladonna - Chicago, Illinois
Bob R - Kansas City, KS
Brian - Louisville Kentucky via Troy New York & Boston
BunnyK - Columbus, Ohio
Buffyboy - Vallejo, California, 30 miles N of Oakland
Cactus Watcher - Phoenix, Arizona
Calluna - Port Orchard, Washington - Across Puget Sound from Seattle
caltrask55 - Randolph Massachusetts!!!
CaptainPugwash - Channels Islands (UK) - the original 'Jersey'
Caroline - Washington, D.C.
cat - Indianapolis, Indiana
Celebaelin - Kenilworth, UK
celticross - Middle of Nowhere, Kentucky - not far from the Tennessee border
Cheryl - Phoenix, Arizona
Chew-lean - Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia (for 6-7 months out of the year) & Florida
cjl - Brooklyn, New York
Clarity (and Polyhymnia) - Stafford, Virginia, USA...an hour south of Washington D.C., an hour north of Richmond VA
Cleanthes - NE Florida
Copper - Phoenix, Arizona
Cydney - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
cynesthesia - San Jose, California
Cynthia - Manhattan, New York City, New York
Dandy - Manhattan, NYC
Darby - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Dariel - Brooklyn, New York
Dark Presence - Fife County, east coast of Scotland
darrenK, - Brooklyn, New York
David Frisby - Indianapolis
Dead Soul - Arcata, California, 80 miles south of Oregon
Deb - Kansas City, Missouri
Deeva - San Francisco, California
Dichotomy - Beautiful, sunny, Denver, Colorado, USA
Dochawk - Brentwood, California
Doriander - Queens, New York
Doug the Bloody - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
dream of the consortium - Cambridge, Massachusetts
dub / dubdub/ Wisewoman - Vancouver, British Columbia
Duquessa des Esseintes - Phoenix, Arizona
Dyna - Chicago
Earl Allison - Danvers, about twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts
eldersister2000 - SW Michigan
Eric - Oklahoma, from Santa Barbara / Sunnydale
Eryn - Vancouver, British Columbia
Etrangere - Suburb of Paris
Exegy - Rockford, Illinois
Farquarson, Formerly Rhys - West Hartford, Connecticut
FelipeRijo - Porto Alegre, the southernmost state capital of Brazil
Forsaken - Arkansas
fresne - San.Francisco. Bay Area, California
Gellis - Mckinleyville - California, maybe Oregon.
ghostdawg - Iowa City, Iowa
gillie - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Graffiti - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
GreatRewards - Seattle, Washington, USA
grifter - Vienna, Austria
Hauptman - Boston, Massachusetts
Heather - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
heather galaxy - Chicago
HonorH - Anchorage, Alaska
Humanitas - Central Florida
Indri - Australia, by way of Texas
Isabel - Schenectady, New York
J - Columbus, Ohio
Jane - Vancouver, British Columbia
Jane's Addiction - Raleigh, North Carolina
JCC - Ireland
Jen C. - Berzerkely California
JLP - Columbia, Missouri, halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis
j.nina - State College, Pennsylvania
John Burwood - Portsmouth, England
Jon - Portland, Oregon
JoRus - Just N of Seattle, Washington
Julia - Portland, Oregon
Juliette - Birmingham, England
Katrina - North Dakota (someone's gotta live there!)
KdS - Borders of London and the county of Essex.
keldari - Dallas, Texas
Kimberly - Northeast New Jersey (Commuter Town)
Kitt - Brent, Alabama, S of Birmingham, E of Tuscaloosa
LadyStarlight - Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta
lakrids - Denmark
lcolford - Seattle
Leaf - Perth, Western Australia
leslie - Santa Monica, California
Lilac - West Suburban Chicago
Liquidram - Saratoga, California (Silicon Valley)
LittleBit - Columbus, Ohio
Little One - By Dogs-Nest, Ontario (A Farmer's Daughter)
Loki - Manchester, England
LonesomeSundown - Ann Arbor, Michigan
Lumina - Sydney, Australia
Lunarchickk - Northwest NJ - Jersey girl, born & bred :)
Lurker Girl - Park Slope, Brooklyn, NYC
lynx - Mississauga, Ontario. Canada
Lyonors - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
maddog - Portsmouth, New Hampshire
MaeveRigan - Raleigh, North Carolina
Majin Gojira - Just Outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
mamcu-luna - South Carolina
Marie - N. Wales
Masquerade - San Francisco
matching mole - Urbana, Illinois, USA
Millan - Sweden
minasrevenge - Houston, Texas
monsieurxander - Ocean Springs, Mississippi
MrDave - Annapolis, MD
MsGiles - Preston, NW England
nay - between Baltimore & Washington DC, MD. USA
Neaux - Durham, North Carolina
newmoon - Portland, Oregon
Nightingale - Massachusetts
NightRepair - Melbourne, Australia
njbethany - Atlanta, Georgia
Non-Hostile Seventeen - Long Island, New York
O'Cailleagh - South Wales, UK
Off-kilter - Yokosuka, Japan
OnM - Southeast Pennsylvania, due west of Philadelphia
pagangodess - Small town Ontario, near Ottawa
pellenaka - Denmark
plin - Bologna, Italy
ponygirl - Toronto
pr10n - Farmington, Utah (20 minutes from Salt Lake City)
Purple Tulip - Upstate New York, near Canada
Rahael - London
Rattletrap - Norman, Oklahoma
ravenhair - Just Outside Memphis, Tennessee
redcat - Honolulu, Hawai'i
rendyl - Just South of Montgomery, Alabama
Rob - Rockland County, NY...about 40 minutes from the City
Rochefort - Detroit, Michigan
Ronia - Washington, D.C.
rowan - Southeastern Pennsylvania, NW of Philadelphia
rowena - Little Rock, Arkansas
Rufus - British Columbia - Just Outside of Vancouver
Sara - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Sarand - Queens, New York
Scroll - Mississauga, near Toronto, in school at Waterloo
Sebastian - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
The Second Evil - An hour west of Washington DC
shadowcat - Brooklyn, New York
Shaglio - Northeast Massachusetts -Danvers, MA
Sharon - Johannesburg, South Africa
Shiraz - Columbus, Ohio
Shiver - Northwest New Jersey (relocated from West Virginia)
skpe - Irvine California (5 minutes south of Disneyland)
Slain - A small village near the small town Chorley, Lancashire, UK
Slayrunt - Akron, Ohio
solstice - New Orleans, Louisiana
Sophie - New York, New York
Sophist - Los Angeles
Spike Lover - East Texas
SpikeMom - San Diego, California
squireboy - Toronto, Canada
SugarTherapy - Suburbs of Minneapolis, MN
Talia - Atlanta, School in Philadelphia
tam - Newton, Massachusetts
Tchaikovsky - Winsley, near Bath, England
Tillow - Southeast NY/Bordering Jersey
tim - Columbus, Ohio
tomfool - San Francisco
tost - Roswell, New Mexico
Tracton - Be'er-Sheva, Israel
Traveler - Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Tymen - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Tyreseus - Las Vegas
valkyrie - Fort Worth, Texas
vampire hunter D - Susquehanna Valley in Pennsylvania
VampRiley - Southeast Pennsylvania, North of Philly.
Vegeta - Minneapolis, Minnesota (Formerly Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
verdantheart - Provo Utah
Vickie - Santa Clara, California
Walking Ghost and the Pocket Editor - Dayton, Ohio
WickedBuffy / WickedWhatever / etc, etc, etc - Eugene, Oregon
Wilder - Rock Hill, South Carolina
Wisewoman / dubdub - Vancouver, British Columbia.
Wolfhowl3 - Milton Ont, (about an hour away from Toronto)
yabyumpan(maybe) - Hackney, East London. UK
yuri - San Francisco to Montreal, Canada
ZachsMind - Dallas, Texas
zargon - Dallas, Texas
Zoey - Clemson South Carolina
zoomusicgirl - Warner, New Hampshire

[> [> [> Or maybe a separate thread is a better idea... -- D, 14:18:25 07/19/03 Sat

[> [> [> Re: General Call, with a list -- O'Cailleagh, 15:28:39 07/19/03 Sat

Heheheh!! I actually meant the 'where are you' in one of the recent London meet threads, but no matter, I'm sure this will work just as well!

O'Cailleagh

[> Agreed- great fun- four section poem coming later -- TCH- basking in time saved on quick trains!, 08:20:04 07/19/03 Sat

[> Had a blast! -- Rahael, 09:04:19 07/19/03 Sat

Lots of laughter, and then some tears when I watched Home again. What more can I ask?

Lovely to meet all of you!

[> Re: London meet last night -- yabyumpan, 16:24:53 07/19/03 Sat

I had a wonderful time. It was a lovley atmosphere in the restaurant, relaxed round-table chatting and meeting some lovely new people (waves to Kenny, Abby and TCH)(although I felt as though I'd already met TCH). I then had the added bonus of even more Rah & TCH, yay me ;o), while trying not to be too traumatised by watching 'Home' again! And as an added, added bonus, I got to corrupt both KdS & TCH with my whorish ways! Oh the fun of tempting young men to the dark side!

[> [> Great to meet you! -- Abby, 11:45:36 07/20/03 Sun

Well, I dragged myself in at 2am after a great night out! It was wonderful to meet you, and the food and conversation were much enjoyed....it felt so indulgent to TALK about buffy etc instead of just typing!
Just let me know when and where next!

[> [> Thank you everyone -- Tchaikovsky, 16:23:44 07/20/03 Sun

I do have the kernel of an idea for this poem but I don't know whether it will ever see the light of day- so instead of being all quiet about everything...

Thanks so much to everyone who came! I had a great time, and totally justified the time and expenditure of getting to London, (particularly as the trains were running so surreal-ly well). I really enjoyed the restaurant.

Especially big thank yous to KdS for organsing everything so well and yab for putting me up. Except for my whining but (I tell myself) irrelevant bank balance and work life, the next meet can't come soon enough.

TCH

[> Re: London meet last night -- Kenny, 06:45:38 07/21/03 Mon

Achh, seems my last post was lost. Anyway, it was great to meet you guys. Much fun was had (although Amsterdam was nixed the next day due to the BA strike...sniff). Hope to meet you all again (face-to-face) one day.

Location, Please! -- Darby, 14:21:17 07/19/03 Sat

I'm just moving this out of the Brit-meet thread, where folks might not notice it...

For newbies, we periodically ask where you are, for our own idle curiosity and the possibilities of get-together organizing. You just need to put it up as a subject line, and I'll add you to the list.

The list below was begun, I think, at the end of 2001, and updated several times since, so there are folks on it who are probably not around any more. Don't assume that just because you don't recognize a name that the person has faded into the ethernet - this is the sort of list that brings lurkers out of the shadows momentarily as well.

The list up to now...

A8 - Baghdad by the Bay (SF)
agent156 - Dallas, Texas
Akita - SE Pennsylvania, Upper Bucks County
aliera - Albany, New York
anom - New York City
Aquitaine - West Island of Montreal
Arethusa - Houston, Texas
Arya_Stark - Central Connecticut
AurraSing - In the southeast Kootenays (British Columbia)
bell456 - Urbana, Illinois
Belladonna - Chicago, Illinois
Bob R - Kansas City, KS
Brian - Louisville Kentucky via Troy New York & Boston
BunnyK - Columbus, Ohio
Buffyboy - Vallejo, California, 30 miles N of Oakland
Cactus Watcher - Phoenix, Arizona
Calluna - Port Orchard, Washington - Across Puget Sound from Seattle
caltrask55 - Randolph Massachusetts!!!
CaptainPugwash - Channels Islands (UK) - the original 'Jersey'
Caroline - Washington, D.C.
cat - Indianapolis, Indiana
Celebaelin - Kenilworth, UK
celticross - Middle of Nowhere, Kentucky - not far from the Tennessee border
Cheryl - Phoenix, Arizona
Chew-lean - Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia (for 6-7 months out of the year) & Florida
cjl - Brooklyn, New York
Clarity (and Polyhymnia) - Stafford, Virginia, USA...an hour south of Washington D.C., an hour north of Richmond VA
Cleanthes - NE Florida
Copper - Phoenix, Arizona
Cydney - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
cynesthesia - San Jose, California
Cynthia - Manhattan, New York City, New York
Dandy - Manhattan, NYC
Darby - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Dariel - Brooklyn, New York
Dark Presence - Fife County, east coast of Scotland
darrenK, - Brooklyn, New York
David Frisby - Indianapolis
Dead Soul - Arcata, California, 80 miles south of Oregon
Deb - Kansas City, Missouri
Deeva - San Francisco, California
Dichotomy - Beautiful, sunny, Denver, Colorado, USA
Dochawk - Brentwood, California
Doriander - Queens, New York
Doug the Bloody - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
dream of the consortium - Cambridge, Massachusetts
dub / dubdub/ Wisewoman - Vancouver, British Columbia
Duquessa des Esseintes - Phoenix, Arizona
Dyna - Chicago
Earl Allison - Danvers, about twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts
eldersister2000 - SW Michigan
Eric - Oklahoma, from Santa Barbara / Sunnydale
Eryn - Vancouver, British Columbia
Etrangere - Suburb of Paris
Exegy - Rockford, Illinois
Farquarson, Formerly Rhys - West Hartford, Connecticut
FelipeRijo - Porto Alegre, the southernmost state capital of Brazil
Forsaken - Arkansas
fresne - San.Francisco. Bay Area, California
Gellis - Mckinleyville - California, maybe Oregon.
ghostdawg - Iowa City, Iowa
gillie - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Graffiti - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
GreatRewards - Seattle, Washington, USA
grifter - Vienna, Austria
Hauptman - Boston, Massachusetts
Heather - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
heather galaxy - Chicago
HonorH - Anchorage, Alaska
Humanitas - Central Florida
Indri - Australia, by way of Texas
Isabel - Schenectady, New York
J - Columbus, Ohio
Jane - Vancouver, British Columbia
Jane's Addiction - Raleigh, North Carolina
JCC - Ireland
Jen C. - Berzerkely California
JLP - Columbia, Missouri, halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis
j.nina - State College, Pennsylvania
John Burwood - Portsmouth, England
Jon - Portland, Oregon
JoRus - Just N of Seattle, Washington
Julia - Portland, Oregon
Juliette - Birmingham, England
Katrina - North Dakota (someone's gotta live there!)
KdS - Borders of London and the county of Essex.
keldari - Dallas, Texas
Kimberly - Northeast New Jersey (Commuter Town)
Kitt - Brent, Alabama, S of Birmingham, E of Tuscaloosa
LadyStarlight - Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta
lakrids - Denmark
lcolford - Seattle
Leaf - Perth, Western Australia
leslie - Santa Monica, California
Lilac - West Suburban Chicago
Liquidram - Saratoga, California (Silicon Valley)
LittleBit - Columbus, Ohio
Little One - By Dogs-Nest, Ontario (A Farmer's Daughter)
Loki - Manchester, England
LonesomeSundown - Ann Arbor, Michigan
Lumina - Sydney, Australia
Lunarchickk - Northwest NJ - Jersey girl, born & bred :)
Lurker Girl - Park Slope, Brooklyn, NYC
lynx - Mississauga, Ontario. Canada
Lyonors - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
maddog - Portsmouth, New Hampshire
MaeveRigan - Raleigh, North Carolina
Majin Gojira - Just Outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
mamcu-luna - South Carolina
Marie - N. Wales
Masquerade - San Francisco
matching mole - Urbana, Illinois, USA
Millan - Sweden
minasrevenge - Houston, Texas
monsieurxander - Ocean Springs, Mississippi
MrDave - Annapolis, MD
MsGiles - Preston, NW England
nay - between Baltimore & Washington DC, MD. USA
Neaux - Durham, North Carolina
newmoon - Portland, Oregon
Nightingale - Massachusetts
NightRepair - Melbourne, Australia
njbethany - Atlanta, Georgia
Non-Hostile Seventeen - Long Island, New York
O'Cailleagh - South Wales, UK
Off-kilter - Yokosuka, Japan
OnM - Southeast Pennsylvania, due west of Philadelphia
pagangodess - Small town Ontario, near Ottawa
pellenaka - Denmark
plin - Bologna, Italy
ponygirl - Toronto
pr10n - Farmington, Utah (20 minutes from Salt Lake City)
Purple Tulip - Upstate New York, near Canada
Rahael - London
Rattletrap - Norman, Oklahoma
ravenhair - Just Outside Memphis, Tennessee
redcat - Honolulu, Hawai'i
rendyl - Just South of Montgomery, Alabama
Rob - Rockland County, NY...about 40 minutes from the City
Rochefort - Detroit, Michigan
Ronia - Washington, D.C.
rowan - Southeastern Pennsylvania, NW of Philadelphia
rowena - Little Rock, Arkansas
Rufus - British Columbia - Just Outside of Vancouver
Sara - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Sarand - Queens, New York
Scroll - Mississauga, near Toronto, in school at Waterloo
Sebastian - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
The Second Evil - An hour west of Washington DC
shadowcat - Brooklyn, New York
Shaglio - Northeast Massachusetts -Danvers, MA
Sharon - Johannesburg, South Africa
Shiraz - Columbus, Ohio
Shiver - Northwest New Jersey (relocated from West Virginia)
skpe - Irvine California (5 minutes south of Disneyland)
Slain - A small village near the small town Chorley, Lancashire, UK
Slayrunt - Akron, Ohio
solstice - New Orleans, Louisiana
Sophie - New York, New York
Sophist - Los Angeles
Spike Lover - East Texas
SpikeMom - San Diego, California
squireboy - Toronto, Canada
SugarTherapy - Suburbs of Minneapolis, MN
Talia - Atlanta, School in Philadelphia
tam - Newton, Massachusetts
Tchaikovsky - Winsley, near Bath, England
Tillow - Southeast NY/Bordering Jersey
tim - Columbus, Ohio
tomfool - San Francisco
tost - Roswell, New Mexico
Tracton - Be'er-Sheva, Israel
Traveler - Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Tymen - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Tyreseus - Las Vegas
valkyrie - Fort Worth, Texas
vampire hunter D - Susquehanna Valley in Pennsylvania
VampRiley - Southeast Pennsylvania, North of Philly.
Vegeta - Minneapolis, Minnesota (Formerly Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
verdantheart - Provo Utah
Vickie - Santa Clara, California
Walking Ghost and the Pocket Editor - Dayton, Ohio
WickedBuffy / WickedWhatever / etc, etc, etc - Eugene, Oregon
Wilder - Rock Hill, South Carolina
Wisewoman / dubdub - Vancouver, British Columbia.
Wolfhowl3 - Milton Ont, (about an hour away from Toronto)
yabyumpan(maybe) - Hackney, East London. UK
yuri - San Francisco to Montreal, Canada
ZachsMind - Dallas, Texas
zargon - Dallas, Texas
Zoey - Clemson South Carolina
zoomusicgirl - Warner, New Hampshire

[> Wow! I mean, wow! -- Tyreseus, 15:01:34 07/19/03 Sat

You ever have those moments where you truly realize what the World-Wide-Web means and it blows your mind for a few minutes? I was scanning the list to see who was closest to me and it suddenly struck me.

BTW - I'm not sure whose closest, but I used to work in Farmington, UT (pr10n), so it gets an honorable mention as "most obscure location" (as in not-well-known) that I've actually been to.

[> Lincoln NE (1st time poster) -- Anne, 16:39:37 07/19/03 Sat

Lincoln NE by way of W. Hartford CT, West Lafayette IN, Ann Arbor MI but originally Canadian. I have been reading this board for some time and it is always thought provoking and amusing (ie sham/poo thread - I will never look at that word the same way again.)
I first started reading the board at about the same time Darby asked about everyone's life stories. That was my intro and I was blown away. I have kept coming back.
Also I think Buffy was some of the best tv I have ever witnessed.

[> [> Welcome Anne. A word about your posting name -- Sophist, 16:57:54 07/19/03 Sat

There is a woman who occasionally posts here under the name Anne. You may want to distinguish yourself in some way to avoid confusion.

[> [> [> Thanks-I'll try Ann (without an E) -- Ann, 18:17:50 07/19/03 Sat

I hope that is okay with the other Anne. Thank you.

[> [> Welcome, Anne..(North Carolina poster here, Darby, but everyone already knows that) -- Random, 17:03:35 07/19/03 Sat

Glad you decided to delurk for a moment. Hope to see more posts and I'm happy you enjoyed the Shampoo thread.

~Random

[> [> [> Shampoo gets em every time.....:):):):):):):) -- Rufus, 18:08:09 07/19/03 Sat

[> Akron, OH...But I go to school at Miami University in Oxford, OH by Cincy... -- Nino, 17:15:34 07/19/03 Sat

[> Re: Location, Please! -- LittleBit, 17:22:42 07/19/03 Sat

Still in Columbus, Ohio. Despite appearances to the contrary, I'm not living on the road ;)

[> Update: I'm no longer in Waterloo since I've graduated! Just Toronto now... -- Scroll, 18:10:21 07/19/03 Sat

[> [> graduated? mazel tov, scroll!!! -- anom, 07:39:22 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> Thanks, anom : ) -- Scroll, 16:06:49 07/20/03 Sun

[> University Park in the Maryland suburbs of DC -- fidhle, 19:06:44 07/19/03 Sat

[> McLean, Virginia (not that it matters much, since I can't go to meets but...) -- Alison, 19:26:15 07/19/03 Sat

[> Actually, I moved to Brooklyn, NY about a year ago. -- Sophie, 19:42:15 07/19/03 Sat

[> Uhm Darb? It's shadowkat not shadowcat... -- s'kat (not wanting to be too nitpicky ;-), 22:58:04 07/19/03 Sat

Still in Brooklyn, NY though.

[> [> Corrected -- D, 02:59:29 07/20/03 Sun

[> Are there really more posters from Vancouver than LA? (but we post alot!) -- Dochawk - who is mystified by having only 4 posters from LA, 00:21:09 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> Re: Are there really more posters from Vancouver than LA? (but we post alot!) -- Yellow Bear, 09:47:05 07/20/03 Sun

Did any posters in LA head to Comic-Con this weekend for the Whedon & Angel writers panel?

Not a comic or a con fan but I was considering it for awhile until life stuff held me back.

[> [> [> Re: Are there really more posters from Vancouver than LA? (but we post alot!) -- Dochawk, 10:58:57 07/20/03 Sun

See my post in the DVD thread above and then a full report to follow

[> [> [> [> Saw it & looking forward to more -- Yellow Bear, 09:38:52 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> Is Los Angeles really a big city? -- Cleanthes, 11:39:19 07/20/03 Sun

I thought it was just a lot of Hollywood hype.

[> [> [> Native Angeleno -- Rina, 14:09:20 07/22/03 Tue

Speaking as a native Angeleno, I assure you that Los Angeles is extremely big.

[> [> [> Re: Is Los Angeles really a big city? -- heywhynot, 11:25:14 07/23/03 Wed

Los Angeles is the second largest city in the US populationwise and the LA metro area is also the second largest. Its metro-area (including parts of Orange and Riverside counties) is around 16 million residence. The NYC metro (which includes parts of CT, NJ and all of Long Island) area is around 21 million. The third largest metro atrea is the Chicago metro area (which includes Kenosha WI and Gary IN) with 9 million. So yes LA is big. Not only that, LA is a city without a real center is like one big sprawl. Compare downtown LA to most other major cities and it is relatively empty. Some writers have tried to argue that LA is truely a post-modern city.

[> Los Angeles, CA (Westwood, actually) -- Yellow Bear, 00:30:58 07/20/03 Sun

[> Re: Location, Please! -- Kenny, 04:26:27 07/20/03 Sun

Ostensibly Huntsville, AL, although sometimes I feel fairly nomadic. That changes in about three weeks, though, when the full-time answer becomes Charleston, SC.

[> [> Re: Location, Please! -- mamcu, 16:18:17 07/20/03 Sun

Hope you found someplace to live in Charleston! Hope you'll like it (get ready for serious humidity, but you'll be too busy to notice).

[> [> [> Re: Location, Please! -- Kenny, 06:47:26 07/21/03 Mon

It looks like I've found a place a block from school. I think I'm going to have to move in without seeing it, though, which is a bit scary. Oh well. Can't imagine that the humidity can be any worse than that in Alabama. AC is a wonderful thing.

[> [> [> [> Gee, the Hellmouth -- mamcu, 10:52:18 07/21/03 Mon

I guess they didn't mention the...strange ocurrences...there, did they? Might want to bring a really big can of Flit (monsters Buffy never imagined!) Guess they have them in Alabama too, but maybe they don't call 'em Palmetto Bugs.

[> [> [> [> [> Ah, Southern bugs! -- Darby, 16:33:50 07/21/03 Mon

When I lived in Memphis, the cockroaches in the biology building (no spraying allowed) occasionally sported license plates.

When you stepped on them and removed your foot, they'd look up and say, "Is that all y'all got?"

[> [> [> [> [> [> YOU stepped on THEM? -- mamcu, 19:12:55 07/21/03 Mon

Actually, OT, I drive a Beetle & was planning to get a GSAMSA vanity plate. Speaking of the combo, that is.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Big Bad Philly roaches.... -- meritaten, 01:24:21 07/22/03 Tue

I saw some nasty bugs when I lived in Philadelphia. I don't even know the name of one, but is was a good six inches long, looked liked a HUGE roach with wings, and was IN MY APARTMENT!!!!. I didn't sleep for a week.

My friend had a terrible infestation of roaches. They were impervious to the effects of both the microwave oven and the garbage disposal. After she microwaved a roach and it walked away unscathed, she all she could say was, "Great, now I've got teenage mutant ninja roaches!".

[> Where I am held political prisoner -- Diana/lunasea, 09:39:02 07/20/03 Sun

Yorktown, VA for me. Should be here the next two years and then for the first time in pretty much ever, I will get to decide where I want to live.

[> Rochester, NY (another new guy) -- BMF, 11:02:47 07/20/03 Sun

I have posted a couple of things here before, but I've mostly lurked for the past year or so, greatly amused by some of the most intelligent and hilarious writing on the Web. Buffy was the only TV show that I ever enjoyed to the point of actually scheduling time to watch it and THINK about it, so this site has been one of the best intellectual stimuli I've ever encountered. Keep up the good work.

[> [> Welcome, BMF...sorta, since you've already poste a couple times ;o) -- Random, 14:38:17 07/20/03 Sun

[> Update -- Eric, 15:25:21 07/20/03 Sun

Escaped from Oklahoma to Leavenworth, Kansas. Escaped from there to very sunny climes to hang out with the British. Still consider Santa Barbara/Sunnydale home and will return.

[> [> Update unclear... -- Darby, 11:26:34 07/23/03 Wed

So are you somewhere in the Heartland, in England, or just want SB as a default?

[> Re: Manhattan, NYC -- sdev, 16:28:08 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> Ditto -- Sofdog, 13:39:15 07/23/03 Wed

[> Kansas City, MO now, Chicago in a month -- AngelVSAngelus, 22:16:53 07/20/03 Sun

making me officially near absolutely noone. I can't ever join the gatherings, unfortunately.

[> [> But Chicago may be the next BIG one - check the archives for Rob's thread! -- Darby, 06:12:07 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> I'm semi-Chicago -- mamcu, 19:09:26 07/21/03 Mon

Actually just came back from a great stay and my SO is still there--but I work in SC, so now I'm back for the duration. Chicago is wonderful--in the summer, anyway.

[> Add me to the list -- Elenphant/Hathir_child, 00:04:35 07/21/03 Mon

I'm from Lenox, Massachusetts. Starting this October, I will be in York, England, for a year.

-Elenphant/Hathir_child

[> Re: Location, Please! -- Chris - about 60 miles north of Philadelphia, PA, 03:21:02 07/21/03 Mon

Mainly a lurker here, but have posted a few times. Love the discussions. Thanks.

[> Davis, California -- Anneth, 10:10:10 07/21/03 Mon

(though I'm often to be found in San Francisco)

[> Tucson, Arizona -- Meritaten, 01:52:29 07/22/03 Tue

[> Madison, WI -- curious, 10:05:48 07/22/03 Tue

[> Re: Location, Please! -- Isty, 10:48:40 07/22/03 Tue

Burlington, North Carolina

I've been lurking for months now.

[> New Haven CT for the next three plus more years -- heywhynot, 11:16:59 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> Mill Valley, CA - another mostly lurker here! -- akaNikki, 19:55:29 07/24/03 Thu

by way of Houston, TX - I relocated in 2001 after 25 years in Houston.

[> [> [> is 'aka' part of your regular nom de keyboard? -- Darby, 20:15:06 07/24/03 Thu

[> well, we know there are 2 lurkers in vancouver, right? (c'mon, you guys, post!) -- anom, 22:22:11 07/24/03 Thu

interesting program description -- leslie, 10:28:44 07/20/03 Sun

This week's LA Times television section describes "Storyteller" thus:

"Buffy and company might not be happy to find Andrew trailing them all day with a video camera in hand, but he gets the worst of it.... He and the gang end up facing the Seal of Danzalthar, a creature that transforms students into demons that breathe fire...."

So, I guess those points opening up are this Monster Seal clapping its flippers?

[> LOL! thanks leslie, I needed a laugh! -- WickedBuffy, 19:21:10 07/20/03 Sun

[> Re: interesting program description -- Elenphant, 00:11:18 07/21/03 Mon

This reminds me of a funny thought I had while watching the seal open and close once. You know that origami game kids play, where they write numbers/words/colors, etc. onto a piece of paper and fold it so that there are pockets that open and close? You put one finger into each pocket and ask another person questions, and based on the answer, you move your fingers and open a pocket with the answer. It sort of applies to S7 as a whole - the shifting walls, misleads, the characters all sort of having their 'fortune' read, seemingly random pieces seeming to be thrown together....

-Elenphant

[> [> That was a really great S7visual, Elenphant. :> -- WickedBuffy, 13:51:10 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> Thanks :-) NT -- Elenphant, 21:09:55 07/22/03 Tue

First Comicon Tidbit - CWDP -- Dochawk, 12:30:06 07/20/03 Sun

There were so many individual juicy details that merit discussion, I thought I'd break them up. And I also have alot going on so it makes it easier for me.

In response to a question about CWDP - Joss said Joyce was definitely the First. Noone asked where all the destruction came from though (since the First is incorporeal). And Buffy not choosing Dawn was Buffy not choosing Dawn to participate in the final fight. sometimes Joss said the payoffs are less than the anticipation.

[> Re: First Comicon Tidbit - CWDP -- Dochawk, 12:31:25 07/20/03 Sun

Now that I am lookign at my notes, Joss didn't say that about the payoff/anticipation - that was my comment I added after.

[> [> Re: First Comicon Tidbit - CWDP -- Yellow Bear, 13:02:07 07/20/03 Sun

Keep 'em coming, Dochawk.

Your line about anticipation & payoff is interesting. Whedon & Co. do such a good job of teasing out our expectations early in S7 (From beneath you, Joyce, etc.) that I'm not quite sure what could have matched.

[> Looking forward to your reports, Doc! -- ponygirl, 16:57:39 07/20/03 Sun

[> Other ComiCon Tidbits -- fresne, 09:01:09 07/21/03 Mon

Ah, yes ComiCon. Wonderful and fabularific stuff. And good seeing Doc again.

However, I also return to face quite a bit of catch up, so, I too will only dribble tidbits. Alas, I had no pen or I'd have taken notes.

My favorite Joss moment was when he was discussing the Potentials becoming Slayers. He said something like power should be shared and that the final concept is that we don't need heroes, because we are all heroes. His response to the SR question was indeed very good and rather more complex than I want to deal with having only had one cup of caffeine. Since it hinged on a point of taking responsibility for your own actions, okay, yes, this is why I give this man my adulation. Oh, and apparently he's on Methadone to deal with his adulation addiction.

There was quite an amusing moment later in the Writers' Panel when Mr. Man of the Fury said that the reason there weren't more crossing apocalyptic threads between the two shows was that they are on different networks and it's very hard to bring the two of them to a climax at the same time.

Alas, a room full of comic/Buffy fans turned out to have their minds fully and truly in the gutter. Much laughter and ensuing jokes.

Danny Strong asked how whichever (pls don't make me look it up) writer who killed him felt like to be a murderer. Seems the answer is, not bad really.

Joss then got up and asked the Writers' panel whatever happened to that Danny Strong guy anyway and Ole Capi-tan Mal hit on the two female writers (who appeared to belong to a hive mind) on the panel.

On a non-Buf related note I saw the later half of the panel on Van Helsing and Hugh Jackman (and unrelated to the movie) sang Summer Lovin from Grease. Both parts. Sandy's bit in a falsetto.

For several hours at least, I renounced all other actor/character allegiances.

Oh, and Gaiman/McKean's Mirror Mask sounds incredible. Messed up. Bizarre. The costume photos they showed were amazing. Gaiman is also working on this comicbook arc called 1602 that sounds incredible. Take Marvel characters and plop them down in 1602 for reasons to be explained later.

Really, the problem was that there were so many people to worship and so little time to do it in.

Resulting in a fresne both mildly hyper and exhausted at the same time.

[> [> Wow -- ponygirl, 09:42:52 07/21/03 Mon

I'd be on overload after such a weekend. Joss! Drew! Neil Gaiman! Hugh Jackman singing! Summer Lovin! My brain is melting just thinking about it.

Did anyone ask Joss to briefly explain the First's plan including why it killed the Potentials, dug up the Scythe, targeted Buffy and friends but didn't kill her when it had the chance(s)? Too much to hope for I guess.

[> [> [> Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- Rob, 12:29:44 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- Yellow Bear, 14:08:05 07/21/03 Mon

I know how you feel. Re-watched the whole of S7 a couple of weeks with the fervent belief that it would make sense but alas, it was to no avail. I still can't figure out for the life of me why the First needed to kill all the Potentials if his whole plan was to release the Ubervamp army.

Loved so much of S7 but the lack of plot resolution is deeply unsatisfying.

[> [> [> [> [> To kill off the slayer line. -- fidhle, 14:54:04 07/21/03 Mon

The FE needed to kill all of the potentials before killing the existing slayers to prevent a new slayer from being called. Of course, being evil and not necessarily the brightest, the FE missed some potentials. We know that not all of the potentials were in Sunnydale where the ubervamp army was. If even one potential survived the slayer, the slayer line would continue, thus thwarting FE's plans to permanently alter the balance between good and evil.

I think the ubervamp army was there to help kill all of the potentials, but Buffy and crew took the fight to them before they were really ready.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: To kill off the slayer line. -- Yellow bear, 15:04:54 07/21/03 Mon

I know. I know. We all have our theories but you got admit the whole thing is just a little to vague on the details.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- heywhynot, 10:57:14 07/22/03 Tue

Didn't the First state its reason for the army of the upervamps? The First wanted to end the balance between good and evil. It wanted the world to be overrun with minions of absolute evil. Once that was achieved the First would be able to walk the earth, no longer having to restrict itself to being an inclination, a tendency in humans. The First wanted to be directly involved in the affairs of the world. Humans in turn would all be slaughtered and the First would rein over Earth. Basically once all hope is lost, despair would overtake the world and the First gets to have its jollies. Evidently the First came to the realization it could do this because of something the slayer did.

Why kill the potentials? Because they are weak at that point. Easy to kill. Kill them all off, and then the Slayer and bye-bye Slayer. Hope ends and despair overtakes the world as the army of Evil overtakes the Earth. Could the First used of the scythe for its own purposes? Probably, since the First and Caleb wanted to remove it from the rock and said they planned to use its power. One spell (Willows) activated the potential in all the slayers using the Scythe. Another might of killed all of them and might of given the First the demon essence used to activate the slayers.

Was it all neatly explained during season 7? Nope but lets face it neither was the initiative, Glory (and the two other hell-gods), who brought Angel back, Dawn being the key and why the key had to survive, why any particular girl gets chosen to be the slayer (random selection of potentials?), Dracula & his castle, Amy's mom in the trophey, how in the world a smallish city like Sunnydale has a UC campus, a small college, a freakin' big mall, yet was said to have nothing for young people to do save go the Bronze. Lots of questions have and will always be unanswered in BtVS, why because the show is not like other shows. Not everything is tied up in a neat little package. There are always more questions left unanswered. For everything we learn about the universe we live in, the more questions we have. Glad BtVS could carry this level of realism within its fantasy world. IMHO makes the show deeper and richer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- Yellow bear, 11:33:22 07/22/03 Tue

Fair points all. I would say that BTVS had never been a heavily plot orientated show so you could dissect plot issuses with nearly every season if you were so inclined. I think S7 stands out because of the sheer number of plot elements that fail to come to fruition. I mean did anyone believe that no one would ever mention Giles visit to Beloix Eye again after 'Showtime'? That the disruption in the slayer line would never have any explanation from someone, anyone as the series finished up.

Again, I never saw BTVS as particularly plot orientated (if plot got me all exited, guess I'd be watching 24) but the lack of clarification was vexing this season.

Thinking a little further, the issues may be less about plot sense than paying off expectations. The Joyce sequence in CWDP of the Showtime sequence above practically beg for some sort of on-screen pay off and it never really comes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- heywhynot, 12:48:35 07/22/03 Tue

To me though the disruption in the Slayer line was explained. Buffy was the disruption. She was the chosen one yet the title moved on to Kendra and then to Faith yet she still went on living, being the Slayer. The one in every generation rule was cast aside since the end of season one. The rule of death was cast aside twice for Buffy, she came back to be the Slayer after months of being dead. The First realizes if the forces of good can ignore the rules so can it. The Slayer line is forever changed by Buffy's being brought back to life. No one realizes this save the First until Buffy realizes she can totally toss out the rules herself and activate all the potentials.

The rules of the game were never as rigid as anyone thought them to be. The limits were always artificial. The First through Buffy's actions came to realize this. The whole balance thing between good and evil was just an artificial limit to be tossed aside by the First. Buffy by the end of season season also realizes this as the rule of one is totally thrown out the window. None of the characters verbally connect the dots back to the words of BE because well it did not matter, saving the world did.

To think of it the rules that many shows follow were openly mocked and turned on their head by BtVS. Who is to say that a plot point must be obviously concluded? The rules of TV. Why do we want them to be? Because those are the rules of good TV we are told. Why does every single build-up on a TV show must have a major pay-off? Because that is what we are taught are the rules of TV. Why does do words by a dead character have to pay off big on BtVS? Because that are the rules we have established in our minds regarding the show.

Season 7 was about power on so many levels including with regards to the show. The power to determine how the show ended was not in our hands, nor was it ever really in our hands. Our powers were to watch or not, to praise, critique, complain but in the end only Joss really had the power of creation regarding Buffy. Each of us has the power to create our own Buffy's in our heads, but the Buffy we all collectively watched was under his power. This season I think especially had the creators having fun playing around with the watchers (us). In a manner of speaking we have always been the Watcher's Council trying to dictate what a Slayer should be and act. Think about the whole Giles not touching anything, the BE, "Joyce's" words, etc. we all jumped around with our theories but in the end what was to come of it all lay in the hands of ME not ours. We were constantly reminded this season of this fact, we did not have the power. But in the end what happened? The story of Buffy did not end. It was left open ended. The limits placed upon us as watchers were let go. The watcher's council was destroyed like in the show. We were empowered to take Buffy's character were we wanted.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Really Enjoyed Your Final Paragraph -- Yellow Bear, 15:08:38 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, sorry about the typos. Way too much time in lab *NT* -- heywhynot, 16:49:55 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ditto on that last paragraph! -- anom, 20:54:09 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> another ditto on that last paragraph! -- meritaten, 02:10:29 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> Nope - But More later -- Dochawk, 13:39:16 07/21/03 Mon

Nope Potentials not really addressed. Somebody started to ask a Kennedy question and the questioner got booed (he had already asked 2 questions). I agree with how Joss responded to the SR question (and liked the way DeKnight answered it too).

I had alot of problems with Joss' answer to the Spike/Buffy romance in season 7 though. Full details on that to come (Gee I feel like an LA network news cast here - full teaser mode).

[> [> [> [> What is the SR questions? Is this Seeing Red? My abbreviation skills have falled me. -- Yellow Bear, 13:55:31 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> It's the AR question that we've discussed ad nauseum. -- Hoping this doesn't start yet another discussion, 18:34:04 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thought as Much (these abreviations are too darn hard to keep track of) -- Yellow Bear, 19:07:31 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> Fury....networks climaxing together.....snerk......;):):):):) -- Rufus, 23:21:29 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> Gutter brains! A roomful of 'em. -- deeva, 08:30:32 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Well, then there's what Davo said about how... -- fresne, 09:06:44 07/22/03 Tue

to get a job with ME.

You have to sleep with Joss.

Then Ben Englund, who apparently needs massive quantity of coffee to survive and I just had never pictured as such a goth, slacker, Clerk kinda guy, said,

"Yeah, it's a sticky proposition."

At which point we lost it again.

Then there was a running joke where this one person was asking David Fury a question about Lilah, which he misheard to be about Eliza (as in Faith). So, he starts rattling off and keeps getting interrupted, "No I meant mumble, mumble." And he'd talk about ED some other way. Finally, the moderator leaned over and he's all, "Hey, I know who Lilah is, I'm old. I just didn't hear it." Or something like that.

So, for the rest of the panel periodically, DF would just shift questions to Faith, ED, True Calling, etc. Or joke about his relative age.

DF also claimed that Joss must come up with a new show, because DF needs to stay employed.

[> [> [> [> [> Heh - different perspectives -- ponygirl, 09:52:47 07/22/03 Tue

I just read a rant by the woman who asked the Lilah question. She was very upset at what she saw as a Spike/BtVS takeover of the AtS panel and took the Eliza mistake as proof of how out of touch ME is with AtS fans.

Everyone's got a different piece of that elephant...

[> [> [> [> [> [> That's really funny -- Yellow Bear, 11:22:58 07/22/03 Tue

Nah, people don't read too much into these things. No, not at all.:)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, the sacred perspective -- fresne, 19:54:18 07/22/03 Tue

Mainly I think DF just had Faith on the brain. The writers were asked who their favorite characters to write for were and he picked Faith.

Course, he also wished he'd written FfL, which would have been interesting.

Ponders FfL written by a series of other writers: Conan Doyle, Aristophanes, Anonymous.

Given that I yelled out "Spoon" when a certain someone was introduced, I wouldn't have minded any number of panel hijackings. Alas, not even the question did Nancy Holden realized that Christopher Golden had a wrecked ship motif that kept showing up in the comic could derail that panel from it's sacred and "say what!" rounds.

Damn them writers fur not seein' that what AtS needs is more Tick. Angel standing there, arms akimbo, proudly declaiming oh, something. "Hang ten for justice. A chili sulks in his tent. Read a book."

I think Angel would look good in blue. After all, he is well nigh invulnerable. And for all I know, he fought Teddy Roosevelt, back when he was evil. Sorry, E-vil!

[> [> [> [> [> y'know, there are fans who'd consider that a bonus -- anom, 11:23:18 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Oh, and Joss thinks Clem should have his own show -- fresne, 09:17:49 07/22/03 Tue

One More before I leave for work - Angel Premiere Oct 8 and new WB poster -- Dochawk, 13:12:04 07/20/03 Sun

The WB introduced a new poster for Angel at the con yesterday and the best part of it was the date for the Premiere - Oct 8. But, for those of us afraid it will be the Spike show, Spike is given equal wait to DB and is in the front position.

[> Re: One More before I leave for work - Angel Premiere Oct 8 and new WB poster -- Yellow Bear, 13:31:22 07/20/03 Sun

I wouldn't worry that much about Angel becoming the Spike show. WB advertsing shouldn't have too much affect on ME storytelling. Plus the main thing the WB wants to tell audiences this year is that Spike is on Angel now.

[> If you want to see it -- Diana, 15:32:05 07/20/03 Sun

It's already up at ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3539265934&category=18837#ebayphotohosting

It is well done, but I think Dochawk is right. The WB just want to show off their new blond toy.

[> Re: One More before I leave for work - Angel Premiere Oct 8 and new WB poster -- s'kat, 16:16:07 07/20/03 Sun

But, for those of us afraid it will be the Spike show, Spike is given equal wait to DB and is in the front position.

Not this again.;-)

I'm spoiled for the first episode and I can honestly tell it is not the Spike show. (Even though, personally if I were Queen of the World, Spike would be the lead of his own show, but I'm not and Spike is supporting and believe me the first episode? It's ALL. About. Angel.)

He's front and center in the episode, with the others supporting like always. Nothing has changed.

[> [> Not to open this can of worms, I hope -- Diana, 16:40:43 07/20/03 Sun

But I have been thinking about the concerns that Spike will take over Angel. Not that I have them. In Joss I trust. He got through his lesbian kiss, he got through the flaying of Warren. He will tell the story that he wants to. That story does not have Spike as the main character. If it changes so that it does, I will have to adapt. Only in the boards does Spike rule, so far.

I think the real concern is that this season on Angel, the other characters were really developed, especially Fred and Lorne. Who knows what is going to come out of the White Room with Gunn. Wesley has his own large following. Angel has as devoted a fan base as Spike and we are used to our champion being the primary focus of the show. It isn't quite as ensemble as Buffy.

Over on Buffy this season, we saw Willow, Xander, and relegated to minor players, if we could even call them that. Anya's character was pretty much dropped as was Dawn's. The only one that received any serious screen time was Spike. It is easy to blame that on JM and his cult of personality, but that was where Buffy's story was S7. The show is in its final season. Does anyone really think they were slaves to ratings? Have they ever been?

What might be interesting to explore isn't blaming JM or Spike fans for the lack of Scooby presence this season, but why the writers felt that they weren't needed for this part of the story.

[> [> [> Don't worry about it. Trust me, based on first episode spoilers? Not happening. -- s'kat, 16:44:53 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Re: Don't worry about it. Trust me, based on first episode spoilers? Not happening. -- s'kat, 16:47:58 07/20/03 Sun

In fact at this point, several people are wondering if he'll have more than ten minutes per episode. OR even be in all the episodes.

The plot of the first one has been released and without giving away anything - trust me when I tell you, while Spike is important, he appears to be the C plot of the ABC arc. Gunn, Fred, and Angel are featured.

It's like all the other seasons of Angel.

STOP. WORRYING.

[> [> [> [> [> i said I wasn't worried. -- Diana, 16:59:47 07/20/03 Sun

I was just trying to explore where such worries were coming from. To be honest, it might be good for Spike fans to really ask themselves how Spike fits into the story rather than how the story can be molded to fit him. Then they should prepare for 10 minutes an episode, if they are lucky, with the rare Spike-centric episode (probably when certain someones show up). Since the show is going less arcy, I would say that as much as Spike was just points along the curve rather than the curve itself and the audience created his arc, the same thing will happen on Angel even more.

Spike is an interesting character, but if Joss wanted to write the Spike story, he would give him the spin-off instead of waiting to see what happens with Eliza Dusku. I'm not sure if the audience would like the Spike story that Fury/DeKnight/Goddard/Bell/Whedon/Edlund/Craft/Fain would write.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: i said I wasn't worried. -- s'kat, 18:08:20 07/20/03 Sun

Ah, but you sounded worried see. Besides wasn't really talking about you, but the worriers in general - and there are quite a few, well not that many, maybe 20. And they seem oddly enough to be the one's who don't get the structure of the show, or like you said, they would know Spike joining it does not detract from the others. Illogical structurally. Not that I think this is the case.
I honestly think people are just reacting emotionally to data, and emotions aren't always rationally based.

I think you underestimate fandom or read too much into posts. Since I misunderstood you to be worrying - it's actually quite an easy thing to do. We often react to what we read emotionally, without really reading it first.

While I did make the snarky remark that if I was Queen of the World there would be a Spike show and I'd prefer more than ten minutes of him - I do realize his role in the show and the universe. I also know there will be more than ten minutes of him, there certainly was in S4, he had a sizable arc that season actually. Obviously - if anyone has read my essays on the topic. Btvs and Ats are tv shows - built around a central character or lead, with supporting characters, they aren't ensemble shows - like Firefly was. (Although I have a hunch that if Joss Whedon can turn Ats into an ensemble show he will attempt it this year - he prefers the format. And DB isn't a diva personality, so he may be able to pull it off over there, who knows?? I don't. Can't tell from what I've seen what they'll do.) At any rate - Spike's role has always been the foil. From the moment he first appeared it was the foil. Do I enjoy the show better when he is onscreen? Yes. But I still watch it when he's off. He's never been the lead, he never will be, any more than Wes, Fred, Gunn, Lorne, Giles, Willow, Anya, Xander ever were. But suffice it to say, many many fans watch shows for the "supporting" characters not the leads. I know I watch Alias for everyone but Jennifer Garner's Sydney Bristow. Sydney annoys me - but I adore LEna Olin, Ron Rifikin, Victor Garber, Will ...I tolerate Sydney. And no I'm not obsessed with that show and can miss episodes. La Femme Nikita on the other hand - drew me in b/c I loved the lead. And I've watched Angel since day 1, because I happened to enjoy the lead. I honestly don't think pulling any Btvs character over to Angel is going to work, if people don't like the character of Angel (and there are lots of people who don't) but who knows, maybe? Truth is we have no way of knowing. And most people's tastes escape me.

What I actually like most about Spike is that he is the supporting character. The foil. The metaphor. I never know what they'll do with him. Lead's arcs are easy to predict.
Let's face it - we know a ton about Angel without ever looking at a spoiler: he'll survive, he will be redeemed,
he will be the hero, and he will be okay in the end. And as long as the show is on the air - he will be unlucky in love, just as Buffy was. Because again? LEad.
Spike? Anything goes. Same with Wes, Gunn, Fred and Lorne.
That's why people find them more interesting. It's also why the writers find them more interesting - as supporting characters. The moment they become the lead - central character - your hands are tied. Because Angel was the lead - they couldn't make him as evil as they did on Btvs, when he became Angelus - he's the lead. Same with Buffy - couldn't turn her as bad as they did Willow, she's the lead.
The lead can never really be evil or go nearly as dark..especially in tv. So what do you do? You bring in great supporting characters and you build arcs around them doing things that challenge the lead or for the lead to react off of, or have the lead do something slightly off for them to reacte off. What BTVS and ATS does extreemly well is create great multifaceted supporting characters.

Just because someone prefers the supporting characters to the lead does not mean they don't get the arc or the structure of the story or the characters roles. They do. Possibly more than fans of the lead do, actually.
That's one of the reasons, ironically enough, they prefer the supporting characters.

sk

PS: uhm a couple of your statements above were offensive,
you might want to watch making broad pronouncements about fans of certain characters? It tends to push peoples buttons. Just a suggestion.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Damned if I do... -- Diana, 18:41:25 07/20/03 Sun

I try to hedge things a little, and I come off worried. I get a bit more forceful and I come across as offensive. I give up. Sigh.

I think Spike fits perfectly in the role that Cordy just vacated. For 4 seasons she was Angel's shadow, which gets a bit more complicated than the shadow that Spike was for Buffy. Spike represented parts of Buffy that she repressed (and in many cases needed to and should repress). Angel's shadow is more complicated than this by Angel's complicated nature. Season 1-3 Cordy was parts of Angel that he repressed, but he wanted to get in touch with again. Season 4, Angel's shadow went somewhere else. Who among us on some level wouldn't like to create the perfect world? The "villain" that Cordy became was the perfect contrast to Angel's development.

Now we have something else to complicate Angel. He will have to find a way to reconcile his mission to help the helpless with being in charge of Wolfram and Hart. I see lots of repression going on in order to do that and Spike representing what Angel is repressing. It should get interesting.

Where Spike's strength lies is in Pathos. That does best in small doses. I do think that Wes or Fred could pull off their own shows, just like Willow or Giles could. Even Gunn and Xander could sort of. Spike and Cordy couldn't.

I like writing the leads. They can't get that dark, so you have to figure out other ways to do things. S2 AtS was amazing where they took him to get to his Epiphany. I like S6 BtVS and how they got her out of the Grave.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Damned if I do... -- FYI to Diana, 18:52:06 07/20/03 Sun

The WB just want to show off their new blond toy.

THIS was kind of offensive. And makes it seem like you might not mean some of your other comments. Just FYI.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> For Christs sake, Joss said it much earlier -- Diana, 19:41:05 07/20/03 Sun

Hello, everyone. I have a really wicked sense of humor. I am sarcastic as all hell. Just like many of the writers, which is why I don't find any of what they say offensive.

So now that you know that, if you find something offensive and not quite a scholarly examination of the topic, it is more than likely just an attempt at humor. If that isn't your type of humor, blow it off. If it is, then laugh.

Seems pretty simple to me

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually that wasn't it, this was: -- Helpful, 08:50:34 07/21/03 Mon

Spike fans to really ask themselves how Spike fits into the story rather than how the story can be molded to fit him.

they should prepare for 10 minutes an episode, if they are lucky, with the rare Spike-centric episode

Comments like these start flame wars and fan wars and push buttons. They also inspire people to avoid reading the poster.

The rest of the post was fine. Just probably a really really good idea to stay away from making assumptions about fan bases.

Remember everyone watches the show for their own reasons, the fact they like and watch it, should be enough. Otherwise, it wouldn't even be on. Respect others obsessions.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay.... -- meritaten, 02:38:17 07/22/03 Tue

I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but not everyone sees the offense. I like Spike, but I agree that the series "Angel" shouldn't become the series "Spike". If I really wanted to be offended, I could probably find a way, but ....

I guess we all need to sensitive to the volatile subject of Spike, but if we become TOO sensitive, don't we all lose? It is not as though Diana said, "Spike sucks - Angel and Buffy forever." Personally, I don't want to hear only the opinions that I like - even if the subject is Spike.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay.... -- sigh, 07:59:20 07/22/03 Tue

Wasn't about Spike, you nit.

Was that you might not want to talk about "fans"
of Spike. Telling "fans" that you've never met what they should or shouldn't do. That's not character analysis or about Spike at all. It's about the fans.

It would be like stating that fans of Angel should understand that his arc isn't the most important...

If she removed the frigging stuff about fans would have been fine. Unless of course you want someone to write a discourse on Angelworshipers?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not okay -- Rahael, 08:19:41 07/22/03 Tue

I don't know who you are but I'm curious to find out whether you'd have called another poster 'a nit' if you'd actually put your own posting name to that comment.

Surely if one is advocating civility, which I agree is a very worthwhile thing to advocate, it should be advocated in a civil mannner?

I understand that you probably posted in anger but Meritaten doesn't get to come out and post on the mainboard all that often because she wants to remain spoiler free for eps that she hasn't seen yet but US viewers do (excuse me, Meritaten if I got that wrong - going by memory here), and I felt bad that once she did get to discussing stuff here she got this response from someone who is not willing to own their words.

I hope I don't upset you with my post right here, but at least you know who to get upset about right? And I'm more than willing to apologise if you feel I've spoken in an intemperate manner. It's the anonymous nature of the comment that made me respond here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree, Rah. I, too, am curious. -- LittleBit, 08:32:05 07/22/03 Tue

If I recall correctly, Meritaten travels a great deal and has to catch up on the episodes when she can. So it is always a treat when we have the pleasure of seeing her here.

It is the anonymity of the poster that motivates me to back you up here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, and.. -- Rahael, 08:45:00 07/22/03 Tue

I didn't mean to inadvertantly imply that I think it's not okay to reply anonymously to some people and okay to others.

Looking at the thread, I notice Diana too has been replied to anonymously by more than one poster.

I don't also mean to imply that it's some terrible sin, but I hate that even I have started thinking "God, these anonymous posts are so irritating! Maybe I should tell them, anonymously of course, because I don't want to get involved in a flame war under my 'real' name."

And then you realise that it's just so infectious that pretty soon the board will be full of people who know each other pretending that they aren't who they are.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're Curious? I thought you were LittleBit :-) -- Diana, 08:56:14 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Damn, I was going to use that line... -- ponygirl, 09:03:08 07/22/03 Tue

But I do think people posting anonymously is a bit confusing. And raises the question of whether some might be replying to their own posts, or trying to intentionally stir up controversy.

Let us all post honestly under our own made up names!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm always a Little Bit curious ;-) -- LittleBit [enquiring minds want to know], 09:25:35 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Is she not the cutest thing ever? ;o) -- Rob, 13:10:26 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll take credit for the "blond toy" complaint.. -- curious (because another poster has my real name), 10:01:57 07/22/03 Tue

I was irritated (not really offended) that Diana had gone back to her old snarky self so quickly after the big explosion on the board the last couple of weeks. I stopped reading her posts again. Much happier that way.

I agree that the "nit" comment to the poster who was not here a for a few weeks was uncalled for. S/he had no idea where the frustration came from.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It was me, It's one of the reasons -- SK, 16:05:43 07/23/03 Wed

i've decided to leave the boards.
I lost my cool. Regretted it. And decided it was time to
leave. When visiting a board is no longer fun and makes you angry, it's time to say goodbye.

Apologies to meritan. I didn't mean to hurt her feelings.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It was me, It's one of the reasons -- meritaten, 21:42:31 07/23/03 Wed

Shadowkat,

While I did take offense at your post, I am truly sorry to see you leave. I have made a point of reading your posts as they as are always thought-provoking and interesting. I will miss your posts and the insight they provide.

I didn't mean to cause problems. Apparently, the ill-feelings were a result of other posts that I'd missed. Perhaps I should have refrained from posting, but ... well, based on what I read, I got the impression that someone was deliberately (again, my impression) misunderstanding Diana, and I felt the need to let her know that not everyone was taking offense. I truly didn't see the reason for the ill-feelings and I would have felt pretty lousy in her place. I've been away for some time, and I have only just "met" Diana, so I have no cause for any ill-feelings towards her. Except for this little exchange (which I would consider over except for the concern that this was part of your decision to leave), I have no cause for any ill-feelings towards you either.

I wish you the best, and do hope that you will return to the board. I will definitely miss your posts.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I once kicked the wall... -- sdev, 22:00:47 07/23/03 Wed

I thought it was sheet rock but it was concrete. I broke my big toe. That was worse, really stupid way to express anger.

Don't beat yourself up. You owned. It's over. In the short time I've been here I've seen much worse.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks so much for your support -- Diana, 08:34:04 07/24/03 Thu

Everyone, both on board and off board. I am sorry that my sense of humor has been interpreted as either mean or nasty by some. I will try to include things like emoticons or [BEG] (which means Big Evil Grin), so that people are more aware when I am not being serious. That tends to be most of the time, so I hope that you like little smilies :-)

If I do leave one off occassionally, please forgive me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks so much for your support -- Arethusa, 10:09:56 07/24/03 Thu

I'm embarrassed to admit that I too thought statememts like Spike fans are molding the story to fit their Spike-love and "the audience created his arc" were insults. Emoticons or little statements like "Just joking!" would be great, and help prevents these misunderstandings.

As you probably know, we sometimes use our Evil Aler Ego names when we want to let everyone know our post is going to be snarky. Since you're Diana, perhaps your could call yourself something like Janus, the two-faced god, which is the masculine form of Diana. Oh well, I'm sure you could think of something better.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Can't we all just get along :-) -- Diana, 08:52:51 07/22/03 Tue

One of the early post in this thread was telling Angel fans and/or people that are concerned about Spike taking over (which I am NOT concerned about. In Joss I trust) not to be worried. The fans of a particular faction are addressed all the time. If I did think that Angel was going to be shoved in a basement somewhere, I would be telling us to get prepared for this.

Both factions have attachments. The main difference between Angel fans and Spike fans is that our character is the main one and we don't really have to worry about what happens to him. His trips into the dark are just to give him his epiphanies. He makes lots of mistakes, but he always picks himself back up and soars even higher. That is the nature of being the main character. His is the story the writers are telling, so he gets involved arcs and lots and lots of screen time. If he is killed, we know he will return somehow. There really are no worries.

Not so for anyone interested primarily in a secondary or tertiary character. It causes a protectiveness, that unfortunately is stiffling discussion here. There are some really interesting things about Spike people are afraid to talk about because anything that is perceived to be negative about the protected character starts some pretty out of control flame wars. This isn't just me and my tone. I know some incredibly rational people that have been on the board long enough to have the "right" tone, who will not post. It really is a pity.

And for this reason, because of the extreme emotional attachment that has been demonstrated on the board, I did warn people. It was half tongue-in-cheek, but to be honest, it was half concern. I would be willing to bet some serious money after a month of episodes, some people will come here and complain that Spike isn't being appreciated either by AI or ME.

Pity that those are the comments that can safely be made about Spike.

Oh well. The Buffyverse is populated by many interesting characters and we can still talk about them freely. So lets see what I can come up with today. Might actually have something interesting to say about Wood.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd like to announce right now that I am none of these posters. -- WickedBuffy, 10:19:55 07/22/03 Tue

Sorry to interrupt for a few moments.
Just to protect my back, I feel I need to make this statement.

Before I am called some inaccurate and horrid names (again) on this Board, I want to make it very clear that I have not posted anything in this thread except the two totally nonthreatening comments below with my name clearly on them. And that anything I post, if it did have a relevant name as a poster alias, would have my actual posting initials name at the bottom of the post.

Like this:

WB

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I did know it wasn't you -- Rahael, 12:08:06 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh and -- Rahael, 12:11:41 07/22/03 Tue

I thought that old board kerfuffle was over. Until I chanced to look at the posters profile last week. Clearly not.

It was certainly over on my part.

email me, okay? I certainly don't want to get into this on the board again.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Where is the ballot box for that Queen of the World thing, s'kat? -- WickedBuffy (gonna stuff it for you) }:>, 14:04:33 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> oh thanks...LOL! if I ever find it, will let you know ;-) -- SK, 18:26:21 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's locked in my basement. I'm waiting for Angelina Jolie to nominate herself. -- Finn Mac Cool - King of the World - deal with it, 11:16:11 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Honestly... -- Alison, 18:43:49 07/20/03 Sun

I'm not worried about how much screen time Spike will get, but rather what the writers will do to his character. I love Spike, and I loved his arc on Buffy- and loathe as I am to loose him, I thought it was a very good ending...he came full circle. So I worry that all his growth could be destroyed- which not only will ruin his story, but make it impossible for me to watch Angel. OTOH, the writers could do great things with Spike- and there's always the dream of a Angel/Spike ship. One can only hope....

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Is it ok if I still bitch about missing Cordy, even if the season hasn't started? -- Nino, 18:53:38 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Bitch away! Queen C'd be proud. -- Alison (missing Cordy too..sniff), 18:56:36 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just finished an Angel Season 1 Marathon. Full of Cordy. -- WickedBuffy, 14:11:22 07/21/03 Mon

... and every time Cordy came on, we'd groan and start whining - missing her even more after watching her in the good old early Angel days.

(Back when she was goofier and had more Sunnydale in her.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Honestly... (sort of spoiler, so for purists only don't read) -- Dochawk, 23:48:33 07/20/03 Sun

Well on that count I think you can be reassured by both what Joss said "Spke made a huge sacrifice and we are aware of that and how much he had grown when he moves to Angel". Also DF said something similar during the writers panel.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh I know what Joss said.... -- Alison, 23:56:01 07/20/03 Sun

but "in Joss we trust" is just not holding up for me anymore. This whole situation makes me nervous- I love both Angel and Spike....and I have the feeling that at least one of them will suffer in the character developement department. ::deep breath:: "Joss has a plan...Joss has a plan..think of Restless..."

[> [> [> [> [> [> OT - question about casting reference.... -- meritaten, 01:14:12 07/22/03 Tue

"waiting to see what happens with Eliza Dusku."

What is the story here? (I was in a Buffyless place for months, and - in order to remain unspoiled - had to refrain from listening to Buffy news until I got home and watched the videotapes.) Is Joss thinking of a spin-off with Faith? Is Eliza Dusku thinking of starring???

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: OT - question about casting reference.... -- curious, 10:19:30 07/22/03 Tue

There was a possiblility that ED might do a spin-off with Faith but she opted to do another show on FOX called "Tru Calling" (I think that's right) in the fall instead. But this show is scheduled on Thursdays - opposite of several popular shows and may not last. So - I think JW might be hoping ED may end up doing a spin-off in the future after all if her new show fails.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- meritaten, 01:06:42 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> But based on this, I can't read this thread! -- Darby, 17:17:11 07/20/03 Sun

I don't want to know what's not happening - it's not as bad as knowing what is happening, but it is spoilage.

I had to avoid reading the post in order to put this here...

[> [> [> [> [> [> Skip Whedon's interview too then. -- sk, 17:33:14 07/20/03 Sun

Sorry, didn't realize how broad the spoiler definition is.
Am off spoilers as of today, anyways...finding the whole thing frustrating.

No "real" plot spoilers in the above. Except that Spike isn't going to be the central focus of the show. And uhm well...didn't you more or less assume the show wouldn't be all about Spike? Isn't that implied by the title?
I mean honestly people - if they were going to do a show based on Spike they would have done one by now. It's all about Angel. Whedon isn't interested in doing the Spike show, even though James MArsters is a favorite of his, why? Because what would he call it? Not Angel?? Spike works best as the trickster - the cog - the supporting player. Much juicier role for an actor too.

Am I the only person whose finding people worrying about Spike taking over to be incredibly silly? Saying he's not, should hardly be a spoiler.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Most of the Comic con stuff has spoilers in it...as well as the interviews -- Rufus, 17:42:31 07/20/03 Sun

Plus you are only duplicating all the stuff on the Trollop Board.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry Ruf, was busy trying to make a point. -- s'kat, 18:10:15 07/20/03 Sun

Was trying to point out that Spike isn't taking over the show. Not just sharing info. And doing it badly.

Sorry.

sk

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sorry Ruf, was busy trying to make a point. -- Rufus, 19:32:59 07/20/03 Sun

Don't worry.....everyone goofs here and there and it's when we are making a point that some of the spoilers kind leak out. I know that there are some here that don't even want to be spoiled for new cast so I'm very careful about what ends up in message subjects. I guess I'm Spoiler Trollop by trade and the First Virture in charge of board purity...;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm intrigued to find out how much mileage there is in Spike and Angel bonding -- Celebaelin, 17:44:51 07/20/03 Sun

They have more in common than just a history now. But how will having Buffy in common affect things. Has Angel even been told about that yet? Or figured it out?

C

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Skip Whedon's interview too then. -- Yellow Bear, 18:25:56 07/20/03 Sun

No, you are not the only one who finds people worrying about Spike taking over the show to be a little silly, but given the last seaosn of BTVS I can see the problem for some.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I too am going spoiler free...its tough! -- Nino, 18:56:07 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> People have good reason to fear Spike's return -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:40:44 07/20/03 Sun

At various points in Season 7 of "Buffy", people were either complaining they didn't do enough with Spike or they did too much with him. The latter half of the season being most recent in our memories, it seems odd to think people would complain about "not enough Spike". But, in the first half of the season, Spike often got very little screentime, often about five minutes or so, and spent a great deal of that either the First Evil's prisoner or insane in the basement. I remember one post very clearly that said having Spike on screen but not doing anything (such as in most of "Bring on the Night") was a horrible waste of James Marsters's charisma.

People do have good reason to fear Spike coming to "Angel" because, no matter what you do with the character, there's always going to be a faction that doesn't like it and isn't shy about saying so.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I, for one, hope Spike DOES take over the show. (and Cordy) -- Rochefort, 23:30:42 07/20/03 Sun

I hope he bites Connor, and Gunn, and that little one that Westley likes and Lilah and blows up Wolfram and Heart and then he finds a way to bring Cordy back to life. Then that he misses Xander and Willow and calls them over to visit. He leaves Angel alive and talks to Buffy on the phone all the time and they say sweet lovin things on the phone all the time with Angel in the room and then Spike puts his hand over the mouth piece and says , "Oh Buffy says hi." And this all happens after Angel becomes human. And gets even fatter eating donuts all the time. Xander and Cordy get back together. Spike joins the Red Wings. Westley tries out for Bat Boy the Musical and he meets the chick that plays Shelly and she becomes a regular on the show. Eventually Angel is getting no love at all and he gets bored and wanders off the show, but nobody notices. Or he lives in a garbage can in an alley and they knock on his can when they need something like on Sesamee Street and he sticks his head out and everyone goes back to calling him "The STINK guy." And every episode has a "Word of the Day" and the weird green guy with horns gets beheaded in a fight. His head gets put in a box, and every weekend the gang gets to open the box and and he will grant one wish that will come true. I can't believe ME hasn't accepted any of my scripts. :(

Rochefort

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> HAHAHHAHAHA!!! This made my day! Please write it like a proper episode! -- Marie, 02:58:40 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Here's one scene. -- Rochefort, 21:03:27 07/21/03 Mon

The Opening Credits -- "My Way" played on Cello.

Spike. Spike fighting. Willow. Xander. Spike playing hockey. Spike and Macguyver fighting side by side. Wesley in a white top hat and tuxedo tap dancing on stage. Angel rolling on his back in some brown mushy stuff. Xander and Cordelia having a picnic. Spike walking towards the camera with his coat billowing. Everyone shouting because someone said the word of the day.

Scene 4

A Dark Alley. Spike, Willow, and Xander are fighting ten vampires. They appear to be winning...barely. There is a large crash of cans as Xander is thrown. Angel, smudged with dirt, a rat between his teeth, sticks his head out of a can on the other side of the Alley.

Angel: (Taking a live rat out from between his teeth). Hey! Can't a guy eat a meal in peace around here? Jeez.

Xander: You know Stink Guy, you could lend a hand occasionally.

Angel: I'm human, remember? No super natural strength anymore.

Xander: But you still eat rats?

Stink Guy shrugs and takes a big bite.

Spike: Xander, look out! (He dusts a vampire) Keep your head on the fight. We have to finish this. I have a game in Detroit this evening. First round of the playoffs. I got you and Willow front row tickets. I'M going to eat Chris Chelios today.

Willow: About time.

Spike: ... and play the whole second period with no shirt.

Xander and Willow: (as they each dust a vampire) Yayyyy!

Spike: Then we're going to go to New York and see Wesley as Mr. Mestophelees in CATS.

Xander: Aw mann. I hate Cats.

Willow: Xander, we have to be supportive. I mean you and Cordelia are back together, but all of Wesley's girlfriends are dead. All he has are his plays.

Stink Guy: (Looking around the Alley licking his lips) I like cats.

Spike: Yeah poor Wes. Maybe I shouldn't have bit that one chick he liked.

Willow: You were just being Spike.

Spike: Hey you want to ask the weird green head with horns in a box if we can wish for Jenny to be back on Ripper with Giles?

Willow: Sure! I mean last week he granted us the wish of having Ripper be on prime time american network television, so why not?

Xander: I'm never going to have MY own show.

Stink Guy: I have MY own show. This is my show. Maybe if you hadn't gotten so fat and shaggy, Xander, you'd have one, too.

(Xander looks ready to put Angel out of his misery.)

Spike: He's not worth it, Xander. I'm glad you're on this show with ME.

(Parker comes crawling down the Alley, clearly feral.)

Xander: Oh not him again.

(Angel and Parker start growling at one another. They leap at one another as if to begin a bloody fight. Everyone tenses.)

Commercial.

(Angel and Parker continue their leap at one another. They fall to the ground and roll in the trash giggling.)

and so on....

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> These, like, need to be framed ot something. lol. -- deeva, 08:28:38 07/22/03 Tue

What a way to start a morning. The visual is priceless.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More!!! Please do the Angel-listening-to-Spike-on-phone-to-Buffy scene? -- Marie, 08:52:37 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! And he'll do it all with his shirt off? -- MsGiles, 05:35:29 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> lol! stop, it hurts! -- deeva, 08:35:04 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> He didn't get much screen time in 'Lessons'. Just saying. -- KdS, 02:19:36 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Recent Joss Whedon Interview, backing me up (Casting and format Spoilers) -- s'kat, 16:57:25 07/20/03 Sun

http://www.post-gazette.com/tv/20030715owen0715fnp3.asp

'Angel' returns

Contrary to statements by WB executives in May, "Angel" executive producer Joss Whedon says, actress Charisma Carpenter may appear on the drama series again. Though she's no longer a series regular, Whedon said, he wants Carpenter to return to give closure to her character's story. Carpenter's Cordelia ended the season in May in a coma.

"That's what we want, but it's dependent on her schedule," Whedon said Sunday at a WB party. "We know what we want to do; it's just a question of when to do it."

"Angel," which has decent WB-sized ratings in original episodes but doesn't perform well in reruns, won a late renewal reprieve in May. The end of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," from which "Angel" was spun off, helped "Angel's" case.

"With the departure of 'Buffy,' we thought we had a great opportunity to grow the show," said WB Entertainment president Jordan Levin. To that end, executives asked Whedon to write more self-contained stories.

"Last season was basically a 22-hour episode," Whedon acknowledged. "We started the show saying we'll be stand-alone, and then, I don't want to say we failed so much as decided that wasn't what we were really interested in. Now that we have an almost unwieldy cast, we can do stand-alone episodes but still have character resonance in them."

James Marsters, who played the vampire Spike on "Buffy," will join "Angel" in the first episode, but Whedon wouldn't explain how the character, killed in the "Buffy" finale, will be resurrected, except to say the amulet he held during his demise will play a role in Spike's revival.

"The second episode deals with what the hell he's doing there," Whedon said. "In the old version of the show, we might have stretched that out for a lot of episodes. In the new version of the show, by the end of that [episode] you'll know why he's there and, more importantly, what part he plays in the ensemble."

Now that Team Angel will be working for its former nemesis, the evil law firm Wolfram & Hart, it will vacate its hotel base and move into "swank new apartments."

"The [hotel] lobby was beautiful, but eventually it was a giant room with all of our people standing around talking, and our writers would just want to kill themselves trying to find a new way to do that," Whedon said of the pending set changes.

A new character, who "might just be a little bit sexy," will join the show as a go-between at Wolfram & Hart. Characters from "Buffy" and "Angel" episodes past, including conniving Lilah, may return, but the only one confirmed so far is the ditzy vampire Harmony."

It's episodic/stand-alone. So instead of an entire season on why Spike's back, we'll get one episode. Each episode deals with a different scenerio. It's more like S1 and parts of S2, than 3 or 4 or even Btvs S7. So no one character is going to be the focal point all the time, except of course for Angel - who is the lead. He'll always be more front and center. Think Alias.

[> [> [> [> [> My take on S5 format -- Valheru, 23:55:51 07/20/03 Sun

From what I can decipher from Joss's interviews, I envision a format akin to BtVS S3, rather than AtS S1. If he was going for a S1 format, "anthology" would no doubt pop up as the description (since I've not heard him describe S1 as anything but).

BtVS S3 grew out of the Angelus storyline, a giant saga at the time. But rather than having Angel's return dominate the season, it was relegated to B and C plot status (except for "Amends"). Once the S2 epilogues "Anne" and "DMP" were out of the way, S3 relied almost completely on stand-alones. Yes, the Mayor/Faith arc was the driving action of the season, but it wasn't as integral to the seasonal theme as the Big Bads in the other seasons. IMO, if there's no Faith, S3 is still brilliant. When I think of the season, it's the stand-alones that stand-out, and while Faith and the Mayor are the antagonists of "Graduation Day", the real catharsis comes from Oz's "we survived" realization rather than from Faith's coma or the Mayor's kablooey.

Will S5 of AtS be like that? I really hope so. In the past few years, ME has tried to be more daring with their arc construction, stretching certain plots/themes over the course of more and more consecutive episodes. AtS S4 was ME's "Great Big Episode" (even bigger if you consider how strongly it tied into S3), and they pulled it off better than anything I've ever seen on network TV. As I've (and others've) said before, Season 4 was "24" done better, but I really doubt if they could hold everything together for a "48". They had to ditch the super-serial or else run the risk of collapsing under the weight of too much story.

It's not something we haven't seen before. Really, only BtVS S7, AtS S3 (mostly), and AtS S4 are the only seasons Joss is trying to avoid. So it's not so drastic a thing as people seem to be afraid it is.

Now watch Joss prove me wrong...

[> [> [> [> [> [> What I worry about is how they'll handle the standalone plots --