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Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- ZachsMind, 19:17:29 07/17/03 Thu

We watched our favorite little Scoobies grow up on the little screen, from snot nosed freshman to young adults ready to face the world. Even in his own way the man behind Giles grew up before our eyes. Well alright actually he de-aged before our eyes, going from a crotchety old man into an amazingly hip and snazzy favorite uncle type who could sing anything from James Taylor to Tim Curry. Each in their own way matured and developed before our eyes into the wonderful people they are now. Okay. So in reality Nick Brendon had already graduated high school when he got the job of Xander. And we'll never really know how old Alyson Hannigan is will we? I mean she'll claim to be twenty *clears throat* until she's older than Lucille Ball, won't she? And who would argue with her? And we can be upset they're leaving the world of Buffy to move on and do their own thing, or we can thank them for the time they shared, think warm positive energies in their general direction and send them on their merry way.

And their merry way, for some of them at least, is the big silver screen. Only, I wouldn't wish sequels of Scooby Doo or Darkness Falls on my worst enemy. So let's have a thread where each person who cares to participate thinks up much better vehicles for their favorite Scoobies. Think of movie ideas so far removed from who they've been in past performances that it'd be the best way for them to break potential typecasting and get as far away from Sunnydale as they can possibly get. I'll start.

I just got done watching Breakfast At Tiffany's on DVD and desite the fact that this is one of those movies I believe they should never remake because how can anyone possibly improve upon Audrey Hepburn, at the same time there are moments in that film where God help me but I coulda sworn Sarah Michele Gellar could pull it off. I'm not suggesting they do Breakfast At Tiffany's in the same exact way it was orignally done. I think they should take the same script and set it in modern day New York. Post Nine Eleven New York. Start it with Gellar in the same outfit as Ms. Hepburn standing in front of Tiffany's, but the overall feel would be a little darker and more desperate. You couldn't lose the humor, but the look would have to be more real. Naturally, Freddie Prinze Jr. would play George Peppard's role of "Fred" in the film. That's fitting, although personally I'd prefer seeing David Boreanaz playing Paul Varjak. Still, Gellar married Prinze, and we want to think of ideas that would remove her from the BuffyVerse not bring her closer towards it, so Freddi as Fred it is.

So that's one idea. Now, you don't have to think of movies that have already been made. It's just that I find that's easier I think. It's easier to convey to people in less words than trying to describe the movie idea in detail.

Like suggest Anthony Stewart Head in a motion picture remake of the tv series The Prisoner. He'd be ideal as Number Six. And then get Sean Connery to fulfill the role of Number Two, so long as he plays the role with as much bravado and joy as Leo McKern. Can you imagine? ASH and Sir Connery on screen at the same time? It's enough sheer acting talent to brown out major metropolitan cities. It'd be better than Lawrence Olivier and Alec Guinness on the same stage. People would have heart attacks.

Maybe have Nick Brendon as Willie Wonka in Tim Burton's Charlie & The Chocolate Factory. That'd be deliciously hilarious. Who better than Brendon to reprise Wilder's role? Brendon would bring a wit and a charm and a childlike innocence. But no. Burton will probably go with Christopher Walken. The snake. (Burton. Not Walken.)

I'm drawing a blank at the moment thinking of the perfect vehicle for Hannigan. Somebody help me out. God, we can't possibly have her doing American Pie Four. Somebody make that illegal before they commit it to celluloid I'm begging here. Give Alyson something she can really sink her teeth into. Something worthy of... Ooh.. Would she make a better Holly Golightly? Hrmm... Actually if you could somehow merge Hannigan & Gellar together I think you'd get Audrey Hepburn. Either that or a complete and utter mess like in The Fly Part Two *shudder*

[> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- SKPE, 20:13:45 07/17/03 Thu

Like your idea of Gellar in the holly go lightly part but Freddy reprising Peppard's role? Freddy hasn't got the acting chops to do a remake of 'A TEAM'. As for Alison how about a tennisy willams play. Maybe 'glass menagerie' or 'rose tattoo'?

[> [> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- Tyreseus, 23:05:06 07/18/03 Fri

Ooh, like the idea of AH in a Williams play, although I was drifting more towards a period piece along the lines of Sense and Sensability or Jane Eyre. I have enough faith in little red's acting to think she'd do well in something from that era - plus it'll probably give her a chance at some point to look vulnerable and cry.

[> [> [> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- Pathfinder, 10:29:26 07/19/03 Sat

I think AH could be perfect in a period piece - maybe a Henry James adaptation.
Or perhaps something a little edgier, along the lines of "Requiem for a Dream".

[> [> [> [> Re: Our Scoobies In The Movies Fantasy Thread... -- skpe, 17:26:52 07/19/03 Sat

If you want something darker how about JM and AH in a remake of 'The days of wine and roses'. That would give AH another cut at the addiction theme.

[> [> [> [> [> Perfect! -- Pathfinder, 05:10:57 07/20/03 Sun

Ooh, I like that. Whatever your take on the shifting magic metaphor in season 6, I thought AH did a pretty damn good job with the execution of the addiction theme.

She and JM were always good when allowed to play off each other on "Buffy". That was one of the things I missed during the show's last two seasons, since JM's character didn't seem to have any meaningful interaction with other core characters aside from Buffy anymore (which always seemed like a waste because JM could be so good at reacting to his fellow actors, but that's a whole other story...).

So perhaps we could get JM and AH in the lead roles, with Joss Whedon directing and putting his Jossian spin on the script, dialogue-wise. Has definite possibilities. I would love to see Hannigan get a big screen role she could really sink her teeth into, so to speak.

[> [> You're absolutely right... -- ZachsMind, 20:58:31 07/17/03 Thu

I have to admit you're right. I'd assume Gellar would want to do the remake with Prinze, but objectively he couldn't play the part. I mean, objectively he couldn't play the Fred on Scooby Doo convincingly. I wouldn't want him ruining the remake. It'd be a delicate manner.

Whereas David would be perfect in the role. It's rather typecastingy for him. I mean, he broods well which is a requirement. He is very good at looking uncomfortable at parties. He has a look that's believable for a male prostitute. I'm not sure if that's a compliment for him or not, but Boreanaz would be ideal as Paul/Fred.

In fact, quite frankly, I'm surprised no one's tried this, with all the other remakes in the past decade. It'd be nice for once to see a remake that actually makes sense, as opposed to Shelly Long as Mrs. Brady? What drugs were those people on, coming up with that? SMG and David Boreanaz in Breakfast At Tiffany's. It's a natural.

And hey! The Buddy Ebsen role? Get that guy who played Tara's father in the episode "Family." However, although the party scene would be an ideal opportunity for cameo roles for other Whedon alumni, it'd be too tricky because a vehicle like this would be an attempt to allow SMG to spread her wings and prove her versatility as an actress. I'm afraid even having her romantic lead in Buffy play opposite her in this would be too much. Shame though. Their chemistry onscreen is so darn tangible.

But y'know whut? If Jane Espenson did a scan of the script and introduced her own wit and charm to the overall piece? If anyone in Hollywood could improve upon the original script it'd be her.

[> [> [> Bewitched -- MsGiles, 09:02:48 07/18/03 Fri

loved that series. So the naughties remake has AH the suburban witch twitching her nose, sober gay partner AB trying to clear up her messes and square it with the boss (grumpy ASH) and wacky auntie Amy flying in on her broomstick to mess things up again

[> [> [> [> Re: Bewitched -- skpe, 10:47:14 07/18/03 Fri

Yes and MT to play the part of 'Tamatha'

Connor vs Forrest -- JBone, 20:13:23 07/17/03 Thu

Buffy. I like that. The girl's so hot, she's Buffy.


yesterdays results

[> Battle of the Whiny Losers! -- ApOpHiS, 21:00:15 07/17/03 Thu

Now, on a purely physical level, Connor easily takes Forest. That's boring, however. Ergo, this contest will be decided by who can out whine whom. Forest starts strong with a lengthy diatribe about how his best friend used to follow orders until he discovered girls. However, Connor's X-Treme father issues and Oedipal angst, combined with his "stranger in a strange land" frustration, quickly overpowers the zombie commando. Forest gets a few "repressed homosexuality for Riley" jabs in, but by this point, it's merely accademic. Connor leaves a beaten and weeping Forest to go and brood on a rooftop.

[> [> Masq is gonna hurt you! You in TROUB-LE! -- HonorH, 21:18:47 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> [> I only insult because I love... -- ApOpHiS, 22:42:52 07/17/03 Thu

... and because it makes me feel better about my own shortcomings by bringing others down to my level.

[> So Connor it's not even funny. -- HonorH, 21:20:38 07/17/03 Thu

Forrest was fairly cool, yes, but up against the man-boy, bad-hair-day, chronically-pissed son of Angel? Mulch.

'Sides, Connor's prettier.

[> [> Way prettier! -- Dead (and laconic as usual) Soul, 21:22:14 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> Go my boy!! -- Masq, 23:08:34 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Much as i hate to disagree... -- Just George, 23:42:35 07/17/03 Thu

Normally Honor H. is my guiding light, but this time?

No, I must disagree.

Forrest kicked rear! He got more fun as he got nastier. He ended up as a cool cyber demonoid (I loved his wagging finger).

Conner started cool, with his great Matrix entry. But he got less fun as he got whinier.

I may not win, but I believe in the rightness of my ideals.


[> [> [> *Sigh* Poor Connor. He's taken over from Dawn. -- HonorH, 07:08:06 07/18/03 Fri

In the "But he whiiiiines!" category, that is. And his life manages to suck worse than hers, even.

[> [> [> [> Re: *Sigh* Poor Connor. He's taken over from Dawn. -- Just George, 16:12:50 07/18/03 Fri

Conner has good reason to whine.
His parents and pseudo parents made mistakes.
He grew up in a bad neighborhood.
He never went to a nurturing school.
I'll bet he didn't even get enough hugs.

So, I don't blame Conner for whining.
I mean I Blame him.
But I don't BLAME him. Get it?

I just liked Forest better.
(Visualizing Cyberdemonoid Forest wagging his finger.)


[> J-Bone, i was down for a while. How are we doing comments? -- Rochefort, 21:46:04 07/17/03 Thu

[> [> Sorry, I should have mentioned... -- Jay, 22:02:27 07/17/03 Thu

Post them here for now. This is starting to look permanent, but I'm still going to try to find another alternative this weekend. If anyone has any ideas?...

[> Re: Connor vs Forrest -- MaeveRigan, 06:06:19 07/18/03 Fri

Gah! Connor really needs a good spanking to make him sit up and pay attention, but sadly, Forrest is not the man to give it to him.

Wait, could it be Connor vs. Demon-Cyborg-Forrest? That contest might last a little longer, but Connor would still come out on top. Sorry.

Next round, please.

[> Re: Connor vs Forrest -- cjl, 07:13:17 07/18/03 Fri

As we started S4, I liked Forrest a lot. He was a serious student, but he hung out with his buds, reeled off a number of laugh-out-loud lines about the Buffster, and seemed to have a healthy attitude about school, friends, love, demon killing--you know, real life in general. Then, Riley and Buffy Got Involved, and as the season wore on, Forrest sounded more and more like Riley's pissy ex-girlfriend. Like Harmony and vampirism, Forrest's demonization was an improvement.

Connor, on the other hand, was a one-man Angst Machine (with Angel and Darla as parents, how could he be anything else?), and as Tim Minear so painfully drove "Home," he was probably doomed from birth. It's a tribute to Vincent Kartheiser's acting (and Boreanaz' paternal instincts) that Angel fans are almost willing to overlook our hero betraying every last one of his principles if it means Connor will be happy. My vote goes to Connor. The kid deserves every break he can get.

[> Voting for Connor -- KdS, 10:12:10 07/18/03 Fri

I know some people hate him with a passion, but Connor's arc was for me one of the most moving of any ME character. By contrast, all Forrest had going for him was a silly name and a deep confusion about his sexual orientation.

Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.5 (The Master's Apprentice) -- manwitch, 21:50:32 07/17/03 Thu

In terms of Buffy's spiritual journey, the plot in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date is pretty straightforward. Buffy wants a normal life, not the life of responsibility and sacrifice that being the Slayer would force upon her. That normalcy that she wants is shown in her desire to have a normal social life, specifically to date Owen, and the responsibility and sacrifice are shown in her ultimate realization that she doesn't live in the normal world, that her flirtations with normalcy are a threat to those around her, and that she must live life without Owen. As Owen says to her, "there are more important things than dating," and in Buffy's case that is certainly true, and she consciously acknowledges this by the end of the episode.

Other characters help to reinforce this message in a less conscious way. A parallel is clearly drawn between Owen and Angel. Both are mysterious brooders. And both have grabbed Buffy's attention. They have both grabbed Cordelia's attention as well. Cordelia, as we have already seen in earlier episodes, is pretty much what Buffy used to be, what she was in L.A. Cordelia is what Buffy was before she became aware of her spiritual calling. So we might think of Cordelia as Buffy without the spiritual commitment. As such, Cordelia has no chance at Angel, who doesn't even notice her. Angel is himself an emissary from the world of the spirit and represents Buffy's desire for that commitment. What Buffy sees in Angel is the aspect of that world that she wants. And that world is in turn interested in Buffy. It wants her to partake of it. So Angel, representing that world, is slightly jealous and put out that Buffy would be on a date with Owen. Angel recognizes, as Buffy eventually will, that dating Owen is the avoidance of that spiritual commitment. Owen is a tourist in that world, every bit as much as Buffy is a tourist in Emily Dickenson. And ultimately, Owen is judged, and found wanting. The message is, again, that Buffy must not simply seek the trappings of a normal social life, but must embrace her spiritual social life, if you will. She must recognize that her social life must be shaped by her spiritual commitment, not the other way around. And by the end of the episode, she is starting to recognize exactly this.

But this message is even more forcefully presented. At the start of the episode we see Buffy battling a vampire. After she successfully dispatches him, Giles appears and critiques, rather negatively, her performance. We see him quite explicitly in his "trainer" role. He is being the "official" watcher, exercising authority over Buffy as she practices and learns. This image of control is double-layered, both as Giles the Watcher, representing the master of this craft, directs and controls Buffy's learning of it, and as Giles representing "mind" attempts to control the body. The mind always thinks its in charge, even though it may not be. Buffy will always bristle at Giles when he is in this mode. If he's lucky, she'll just be flippant, like she was in this episode. But Buffy will listen to him and respect him when he displays a more fatherly touch, as he does at the end of the episode. He discusses with her his own father, how he himself learned that he too would be denied a "normal" life. He acknowledges to her that we "feel" our way, that conscious control, training and rules will not always be the answer. And he compliments her, finally, telling her that she's doing a pretty good job. So we see a duality to the Giles/Buffy relationships. Giles as authoritarian teacher with Buffy as developing learner, and also Giles as compassionate father with Buffy as maturing child.

After Buffy slays that vampire in the teaser, Giles finds a ring the vamp left behind, and after enduring some more of Buffy's flippancy, he says he must go and consult his books. CUT TO a big dusty book drops down loudly on some surface or other, and The Master opens it and begins to read from the prophecy. So Giles, having just been in the role of master to Buffy's learner, or apprentice, goes to consult his books and we see immediately The Master consulting his books. A parallel is strongly suggested here between The Master and Giles. And the prophecy is that in a time of crisis will come the Anointed. I believe the religious reference of the phrase Anointed One is the chosen one, the messiah, that Christians believe to be Christ. And the purpose of Christ is to bring us back into God's grace through a life of spiritual commitment. Now I believe Jesus's father was a carpenter, and it was expected that Jesus would follow in the family business. Jesus would be expected to learn the trade from his father. Joseph would be the master, Jesus the apprentice. The Master/Apprentice institution is possibly the second oldest professional institution. But Jesus did not see his craft as carpentry. When he said, at the age of twelve, "I must be about my father's business," he wasn't talking about Joseph's carpentry company. Jesus was more concerned with mastering the spiritual craft, and the father he referred to was his spiritual father, the depth and source of his spiritual power. So we see this duality again with Jesus. We have the master carpenter Joseph and the carpenter's apprentice Jesus, and we also have the spiritual father Yahweh and the son of God Jesus. Master/father, apprentice/child.

And returning to Buffy, we find that the Anointed One, about whom all we know is that he is a warrior, turns out to be a child. So The Master also takes on a fatherly role with the child as his apprentice. Now, its my personal opinion that there are no vampires, so when I see one like The Master I say to myself that something that is real to me is being characterized here as a vampire for some specific reason. And in this case I think that The Master is the personification of the depth and source of our spiritual power, specifically Buffy's spiritual power. Normally you would think of that as a good thing. But where Buffy wants a normal life, where she is resistant to embracing this spiritual calling, the depth and source of her own spiritual power will seem terrifying to her. It will seem like a monster, poised to kill and destroy that normalcy she believes herself to want. But we see that the Anointed One, the child, the warrior, is not afraid, and is destined ultimately to lead Buffy, the Chosen One, the child, the warrior, to The Master.

So the episode is giving the viewers an all-out barrage of metaphors, all saying that Buffy's task is to be about her father's business, to master her spiritual commitment, and that this mastery will not take place solely at the level of consciousness. She will feel her way to this mastery, led to her destiny by her kindness and compassion, by her responsibility to and sacrifices for others, not by following rules and orders.

At least, that seems to be what this episode is suggesting will happen. I really enjoyed it. Great performances, great language, and really well filmed/edited. I think its pretty easily the best so far.

The Top Ten Percent (so far)

1. Never Kill a Boy on the First Date
2. Witch
3. Welcome to the Hellmouth
4. Teachers Pet
5. The Harvest

[> Re: Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.5 (The Master's Apprentice) -- Dochawk, 22:34:58 07/17/03 Thu

You continue to make me look at episodes differently. Thanks for that.

[> mm, chewy thoughts -- MsGiles, 08:48:28 07/18/03 Fri

I like Angel as an emissary from the world of the spirit, also the Giles/Master parallels, with Buffy's push/pull relationship with Giles. But Buffy does kill the Master, and this is not a denial but an acknowledgment of her calling (or am I being too literal?)

[> So what do you make of.. -- Random, 09:00:08 07/18/03 Fri

the parallel between Giles and the Master? Both are living (or at least animate) representations of the old ways. Giles is, at the start, an embodiment of the Council and its traditions (I still love his lines in Restless: "This is the way women and men have behaved since the beginning...before time.") And the Master is a quasi-religious figure, the very picture of an unholy faith and ritual that takes itself entirely too seriously and will be supplanted by the bleached one just as Giles, as a representative of the WC, will be supplanted by Buffy (and, to some extent, Faith.) It is in the development of the first season that we can see the shape of things to come. One of the basic premises of the show is the rebellion of the new order against the old (more on that later, I'm visualizing a post on that topic).

What else do people think about the paralleling of Giles and the Master?

[> [> Perhaps -- Sophist, 10:14:27 07/18/03 Fri

we could think of Buffy's defeat of the Master as a defeat of that aspect of Giles which represents the older, patriarchal view. This leaves that part of Giles we see in, say, Innocence -- the true father figure.

Not sure how this holds up. Still thinking about it.

[> [> I'm waiting until Prophecy Girl -- Diana, 09:04:19 07/19/03 Sat

To get into all the parallels drawn between Master and Giles. That episode really hits it head on, especially with the way the scenes are edited. I love how they are contrasted and how Joss' ultimate message about power isn't just shown with Buffy.

I would say that rather than the paralles between Master and Giles, what is important is how they contrast.

Just something brief to help preserve the thread.

[> [> Re: So what do you make of.. -- Alison, 13:07:20 07/18/03 Fri

The Master seems to be symbolic of Buffy's fear of men, abandonment, and how that relates to sex. People on the board have noted before how Prophecy Girl can be seen as a girl losing her virginity. It's not a romantic look at the event, but rather explores Buffy's terror. Her partner in the act is a murderous monster. The Master is also contrasted with Giles, Buffy's father figure. In WSWB, Buffy dreams that Giles attempts to kill her, and underneath his fatherly visage he is revealed to be the Master. My thoughts on this are sort of scattered, but Buffy's "daddy issues" are especially overt in early seasons and in her relationship with Angel. The Master ties together her fear of her father(s), and of a sexual relationship. He embodies all her fears of men. Does this make any sense?

[> Re: Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.5 (The Master's Apprentice) -- Darby, 10:40:44 07/18/03 Fri

I would characterize Giles more as a mentor than either a master or a father - what he establishes with Buffy is a partnership that each contributes to according to their strengths.

Granted that monsters on Buffy are representative of other things, but sometimes isn't Godzilla just Godzilla?

The parallels between Cordelia and the Buffy-that-had-been supports thematically the attraction Angel feels for Cordy after her own Journey down Champion Way, except that the Angel-Buffy connection is of that godawful "Love at First Sight," with compatibility ignored. But once Angel got used to loving Buffy, wouldn't the Buffylike arc in Cordy attract his attention? Aren't we often attracted to folks who echo our great loves?

London meet last night -- KdS, 02:48:33 07/19/03 Sat

Last night's London ATPO meet was a great success. I can now add faces to three more of the names on ATPO - Kenny, Tchaikovsky, and Abby. The restaurant was fine, despite a very wobbly table and certain people getting crammed into corners. A good three hours of conversation covered popular music (Kenny discovering the paradox that obscure American indie bands are usually far better known in the UK than the US), the unspeakable evil of the Oxford Union, fears and hopes for AtS S5, the superiority of Jasmine over the FE, the more dubious uses of Photoshop, bibleslash, the vital difference between ice cream and gelato, why the UK Hellmouth must be in Hackney, and the injustice of employers who don't understand how vital BtVS debate is to a working day. Rahael also came up with the finest suggestion for improving Chosen I have heard so far. Unfortunately nobody had a camera, so I'll have to disappoint some of you :-(

[> Where are you? (again) -- O'Cailleagh, 06:47:42 07/19/03 Sat

Sounds like a fun time was had by all!

I was just thinking, not many Brits answered the last 'where are you' post, and I was sure we had more.
Maybe if we could find out where everyone is based, we could come up with a meeting place that is more or less equidistant from us all. I'm sure that many more people (including myself!) would be able to get to one if it were more central to everyone.


[> [> General Call, with a list -- Darby, 07:24:41 07/19/03 Sat

You're right, and I tried to wedge the last one in among the last episodes, when I figured traffic would be high, but it got pushed off the board fairly quickly.

For newbies, we periodically ask where you are, for our own idle curiosity and the possibilities of get-togethers. You just need to put it up as a subject line, and I'll add you to the list.

The list below was begun, I think, at the end of 2001, so there are folks on it who are probably not around any more. Don't assume that just because you don't recognize a name that the person has faded into the ethernet - this is the sort of list that brings lurkers out of the shadows momentarily as well.

The list up to now...

A8 - Baghdad by the Bay (SF)
agent156 - Dallas, Texas
Akita - SE Pennsylvania, Upper Bucks County
aliera - Albany, New York
anom - New York City
Aquitaine - West Island of Montreal
Arethusa - Houston, Texas
Arya_Stark - Central Connecticut
AurraSing - In the southeast Kootenays (British Columbia)
bell456 - Urbana, Illinois
Belladonna - Chicago, Illinois
Bob R - Kansas City, KS
Brian - Louisville Kentucky via Troy New York & Boston
BunnyK - Columbus, Ohio
Buffyboy - Vallejo, California, 30 miles N of Oakland
Cactus Watcher - Phoenix, Arizona
Calluna - Port Orchard, Washington - Across Puget Sound from Seattle
caltrask55 - Randolph Massachusetts!!!
CaptainPugwash - Channels Islands (UK) - the original 'Jersey'
Caroline - Washington, D.C.
cat - Indianapolis, Indiana
Celebaelin - Kenilworth, UK
celticross - Middle of Nowhere, Kentucky - not far from the Tennessee border
Cheryl - Phoenix, Arizona
Chew-lean - Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia (for 6-7 months out of the year) & Florida
cjl - Brooklyn, New York
Clarity (and Polyhymnia) - Stafford, Virginia, USA...an hour south of Washington D.C., an hour north of Richmond VA
Cleanthes - NE Florida
Copper - Phoenix, Arizona
Cydney - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
cynesthesia - San Jose, California
Cynthia - Manhattan, New York City, New York
Dandy - Manhattan, NYC
Darby - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Dariel - Brooklyn, New York
Dark Presence - Fife County, east coast of Scotland
darrenK, - Brooklyn, New York
David Frisby - Indianapolis
Dead Soul - Arcata, California, 80 miles south of Oregon
Deb - Kansas City, Missouri
Deeva - San Francisco, California
Dichotomy - Beautiful, sunny, Denver, Colorado, USA
Dochawk - Brentwood, California
Doriander - Queens, New York
Doug the Bloody - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
dream of the consortium - Cambridge, Massachusetts
dub / dubdub/ Wisewoman - Vancouver, British Columbia
Duquessa des Esseintes - Phoenix, Arizona
Dyna - Chicago
Earl Allison - Danvers, about twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts
eldersister2000 - SW Michigan
Eric - Oklahoma, from Santa Barbara / Sunnydale
Eryn - Vancouver, British Columbia
Etrangere - Suburb of Paris
Exegy - Rockford, Illinois
Farquarson, Formerly Rhys - West Hartford, Connecticut
FelipeRijo - Porto Alegre, the southernmost state capital of Brazil
Forsaken - Arkansas
fresne - San.Francisco. Bay Area, California
Gellis - Mckinleyville - California, maybe Oregon.
ghostdawg - Iowa City, Iowa
gillie - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Graffiti - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
GreatRewards - Seattle, Washington, USA
grifter - Vienna, Austria
Hauptman - Boston, Massachusetts
Heather - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
heather galaxy - Chicago
HonorH - Anchorage, Alaska
Humanitas - Central Florida
Indri - Australia, by way of Texas
Isabel - Schenectady, New York
J - Columbus, Ohio
Jane - Vancouver, British Columbia
Jane's Addiction - Raleigh, North Carolina
JCC - Ireland
Jen C. - Berzerkely California
JLP - Columbia, Missouri, halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis
j.nina - State College, Pennsylvania
John Burwood - Portsmouth, England
Jon - Portland, Oregon
JoRus - Just N of Seattle, Washington
Julia - Portland, Oregon
Juliette - Birmingham, England
Katrina - North Dakota (someone's gotta live there!)
KdS - Borders of London and the county of Essex.
keldari - Dallas, Texas
Kimberly - Northeast New Jersey (Commuter Town)
Kitt - Brent, Alabama, S of Birmingham, E of Tuscaloosa
LadyStarlight - Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta
lakrids - Denmark
lcolford - Seattle
Leaf - Perth, Western Australia
leslie - Santa Monica, California
Lilac - West Suburban Chicago
Liquidram - Saratoga, California (Silicon Valley)
LittleBit - Columbus, Ohio
Little One - By Dogs-Nest, Ontario (A Farmer's Daughter)
Loki - Manchester, England
LonesomeSundown - Ann Arbor, Michigan
Lumina - Sydney, Australia
Lunarchickk - Northwest NJ - Jersey girl, born & bred :)
Lurker Girl - Park Slope, Brooklyn, NYC
lynx - Mississauga, Ontario. Canada
Lyonors - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
maddog - Portsmouth, New Hampshire
MaeveRigan - Raleigh, North Carolina
Majin Gojira - Just Outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
mamcu-luna - South Carolina
Marie - N. Wales
Masquerade - San Francisco
matching mole - Urbana, Illinois, USA
Millan - Sweden
minasrevenge - Houston, Texas
monsieurxander - Ocean Springs, Mississippi
MrDave - Annapolis, MD
MsGiles - Preston, NW England
nay - between Baltimore & Washington DC, MD. USA
Neaux - Durham, North Carolina
newmoon - Portland, Oregon
Nightingale - Massachusetts
NightRepair - Melbourne, Australia
njbethany - Atlanta, Georgia
Non-Hostile Seventeen - Long Island, New York
O'Cailleagh - South Wales, UK
Off-kilter - Yokosuka, Japan
OnM - Southeast Pennsylvania, due west of Philadelphia
pagangodess - Small town Ontario, near Ottawa
pellenaka - Denmark
plin - Bologna, Italy
ponygirl - Toronto
pr10n - Farmington, Utah (20 minutes from Salt Lake City)
Purple Tulip - Upstate New York, near Canada
Rahael - London
Rattletrap - Norman, Oklahoma
ravenhair - Just Outside Memphis, Tennessee
redcat - Honolulu, Hawai'i
rendyl - Just South of Montgomery, Alabama
Rob - Rockland County, NY...about 40 minutes from the City
Rochefort - Detroit, Michigan
Ronia - Washington, D.C.
rowan - Southeastern Pennsylvania, NW of Philadelphia
rowena - Little Rock, Arkansas
Rufus - British Columbia - Just Outside of Vancouver
Sara - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Sarand - Queens, New York
Scroll - Mississauga, near Toronto, in school at Waterloo
Sebastian - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
The Second Evil - An hour west of Washington DC
shadowcat - Brooklyn, New York
Shaglio - Northeast Massachusetts -Danvers, MA
Sharon - Johannesburg, South Africa
Shiraz - Columbus, Ohio
Shiver - Northwest New Jersey (relocated from West Virginia)
skpe - Irvine California (5 minutes south of Disneyland)
Slain - A small village near the small town Chorley, Lancashire, UK
Slayrunt - Akron, Ohio
solstice - New Orleans, Louisiana
Sophie - New York, New York
Sophist - Los Angeles
Spike Lover - East Texas
SpikeMom - San Diego, California
squireboy - Toronto, Canada
SugarTherapy - Suburbs of Minneapolis, MN
Talia - Atlanta, School in Philadelphia
tam - Newton, Massachusetts
Tchaikovsky - Winsley, near Bath, England
Tillow - Southeast NY/Bordering Jersey
tim - Columbus, Ohio
tomfool - San Francisco
tost - Roswell, New Mexico
Tracton - Be'er-Sheva, Israel
Traveler - Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Tymen - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Tyreseus - Las Vegas
valkyrie - Fort Worth, Texas
vampire hunter D - Susquehanna Valley in Pennsylvania
VampRiley - Southeast Pennsylvania, North of Philly.
Vegeta - Minneapolis, Minnesota (Formerly Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
verdantheart - Provo Utah
Vickie - Santa Clara, California
Walking Ghost and the Pocket Editor - Dayton, Ohio
WickedBuffy / WickedWhatever / etc, etc, etc - Eugene, Oregon
Wilder - Rock Hill, South Carolina
Wisewoman / dubdub - Vancouver, British Columbia.
Wolfhowl3 - Milton Ont, (about an hour away from Toronto)
yabyumpan(maybe) - Hackney, East London. UK
yuri - San Francisco to Montreal, Canada
ZachsMind - Dallas, Texas
zargon - Dallas, Texas
Zoey - Clemson South Carolina
zoomusicgirl - Warner, New Hampshire

[> [> [> Or maybe a separate thread is a better idea... -- D, 14:18:25 07/19/03 Sat

[> [> [> Re: General Call, with a list -- O'Cailleagh, 15:28:39 07/19/03 Sat

Heheheh!! I actually meant the 'where are you' in one of the recent London meet threads, but no matter, I'm sure this will work just as well!


[> Agreed- great fun- four section poem coming later -- TCH- basking in time saved on quick trains!, 08:20:04 07/19/03 Sat

[> Had a blast! -- Rahael, 09:04:19 07/19/03 Sat

Lots of laughter, and then some tears when I watched Home again. What more can I ask?

Lovely to meet all of you!

[> Re: London meet last night -- yabyumpan, 16:24:53 07/19/03 Sat

I had a wonderful time. It was a lovley atmosphere in the restaurant, relaxed round-table chatting and meeting some lovely new people (waves to Kenny, Abby and TCH)(although I felt as though I'd already met TCH). I then had the added bonus of even more Rah & TCH, yay me ;o), while trying not to be too traumatised by watching 'Home' again! And as an added, added bonus, I got to corrupt both KdS & TCH with my whorish ways! Oh the fun of tempting young men to the dark side!

[> [> Great to meet you! -- Abby, 11:45:36 07/20/03 Sun

Well, I dragged myself in at 2am after a great night out! It was wonderful to meet you, and the food and conversation were much enjoyed....it felt so indulgent to TALK about buffy etc instead of just typing!
Just let me know when and where next!

[> [> Thank you everyone -- Tchaikovsky, 16:23:44 07/20/03 Sun

I do have the kernel of an idea for this poem but I don't know whether it will ever see the light of day- so instead of being all quiet about everything...

Thanks so much to everyone who came! I had a great time, and totally justified the time and expenditure of getting to London, (particularly as the trains were running so surreal-ly well). I really enjoyed the restaurant.

Especially big thank yous to KdS for organsing everything so well and yab for putting me up. Except for my whining but (I tell myself) irrelevant bank balance and work life, the next meet can't come soon enough.


[> Re: London meet last night -- Kenny, 06:45:38 07/21/03 Mon

Achh, seems my last post was lost. Anyway, it was great to meet you guys. Much fun was had (although Amsterdam was nixed the next day due to the BA strike...sniff). Hope to meet you all again (face-to-face) one day.

Location, Please! -- Darby, 14:21:17 07/19/03 Sat

I'm just moving this out of the Brit-meet thread, where folks might not notice it...

For newbies, we periodically ask where you are, for our own idle curiosity and the possibilities of get-together organizing. You just need to put it up as a subject line, and I'll add you to the list.

The list below was begun, I think, at the end of 2001, and updated several times since, so there are folks on it who are probably not around any more. Don't assume that just because you don't recognize a name that the person has faded into the ethernet - this is the sort of list that brings lurkers out of the shadows momentarily as well.

The list up to now...

A8 - Baghdad by the Bay (SF)
agent156 - Dallas, Texas
Akita - SE Pennsylvania, Upper Bucks County
aliera - Albany, New York
anom - New York City
Aquitaine - West Island of Montreal
Arethusa - Houston, Texas
Arya_Stark - Central Connecticut
AurraSing - In the southeast Kootenays (British Columbia)
bell456 - Urbana, Illinois
Belladonna - Chicago, Illinois
Bob R - Kansas City, KS
Brian - Louisville Kentucky via Troy New York & Boston
BunnyK - Columbus, Ohio
Buffyboy - Vallejo, California, 30 miles N of Oakland
Cactus Watcher - Phoenix, Arizona
Calluna - Port Orchard, Washington - Across Puget Sound from Seattle
caltrask55 - Randolph Massachusetts!!!
CaptainPugwash - Channels Islands (UK) - the original 'Jersey'
Caroline - Washington, D.C.
cat - Indianapolis, Indiana
Celebaelin - Kenilworth, UK
celticross - Middle of Nowhere, Kentucky - not far from the Tennessee border
Cheryl - Phoenix, Arizona
Chew-lean - Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia (for 6-7 months out of the year) & Florida
cjl - Brooklyn, New York
Clarity (and Polyhymnia) - Stafford, Virginia, USA...an hour south of Washington D.C., an hour north of Richmond VA
Cleanthes - NE Florida
Copper - Phoenix, Arizona
Cydney - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
cynesthesia - San Jose, California
Cynthia - Manhattan, New York City, New York
Dandy - Manhattan, NYC
Darby - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Dariel - Brooklyn, New York
Dark Presence - Fife County, east coast of Scotland
darrenK, - Brooklyn, New York
David Frisby - Indianapolis
Dead Soul - Arcata, California, 80 miles south of Oregon
Deb - Kansas City, Missouri
Deeva - San Francisco, California
Dichotomy - Beautiful, sunny, Denver, Colorado, USA
Dochawk - Brentwood, California
Doriander - Queens, New York
Doug the Bloody - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
dream of the consortium - Cambridge, Massachusetts
dub / dubdub/ Wisewoman - Vancouver, British Columbia
Duquessa des Esseintes - Phoenix, Arizona
Dyna - Chicago
Earl Allison - Danvers, about twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts
eldersister2000 - SW Michigan
Eric - Oklahoma, from Santa Barbara / Sunnydale
Eryn - Vancouver, British Columbia
Etrangere - Suburb of Paris
Exegy - Rockford, Illinois
Farquarson, Formerly Rhys - West Hartford, Connecticut
FelipeRijo - Porto Alegre, the southernmost state capital of Brazil
Forsaken - Arkansas
fresne - San.Francisco. Bay Area, California
Gellis - Mckinleyville - California, maybe Oregon.
ghostdawg - Iowa City, Iowa
gillie - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Graffiti - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
GreatRewards - Seattle, Washington, USA
grifter - Vienna, Austria
Hauptman - Boston, Massachusetts
Heather - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
heather galaxy - Chicago
HonorH - Anchorage, Alaska
Humanitas - Central Florida
Indri - Australia, by way of Texas
Isabel - Schenectady, New York
J - Columbus, Ohio
Jane - Vancouver, British Columbia
Jane's Addiction - Raleigh, North Carolina
JCC - Ireland
Jen C. - Berzerkely California
JLP - Columbia, Missouri, halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis
j.nina - State College, Pennsylvania
John Burwood - Portsmouth, England
Jon - Portland, Oregon
JoRus - Just N of Seattle, Washington
Julia - Portland, Oregon
Juliette - Birmingham, England
Katrina - North Dakota (someone's gotta live there!)
KdS - Borders of London and the county of Essex.
keldari - Dallas, Texas
Kimberly - Northeast New Jersey (Commuter Town)
Kitt - Brent, Alabama, S of Birmingham, E of Tuscaloosa
LadyStarlight - Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta
lakrids - Denmark
lcolford - Seattle
Leaf - Perth, Western Australia
leslie - Santa Monica, California
Lilac - West Suburban Chicago
Liquidram - Saratoga, California (Silicon Valley)
LittleBit - Columbus, Ohio
Little One - By Dogs-Nest, Ontario (A Farmer's Daughter)
Loki - Manchester, England
LonesomeSundown - Ann Arbor, Michigan
Lumina - Sydney, Australia
Lunarchickk - Northwest NJ - Jersey girl, born & bred :)
Lurker Girl - Park Slope, Brooklyn, NYC
lynx - Mississauga, Ontario. Canada
Lyonors - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
maddog - Portsmouth, New Hampshire
MaeveRigan - Raleigh, North Carolina
Majin Gojira - Just Outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
mamcu-luna - South Carolina
Marie - N. Wales
Masquerade - San Francisco
matching mole - Urbana, Illinois, USA
Millan - Sweden
minasrevenge - Houston, Texas
monsieurxander - Ocean Springs, Mississippi
MrDave - Annapolis, MD
MsGiles - Preston, NW England
nay - between Baltimore & Washington DC, MD. USA
Neaux - Durham, North Carolina
newmoon - Portland, Oregon
Nightingale - Massachusetts
NightRepair - Melbourne, Australia
njbethany - Atlanta, Georgia
Non-Hostile Seventeen - Long Island, New York
O'Cailleagh - South Wales, UK
Off-kilter - Yokosuka, Japan
OnM - Southeast Pennsylvania, due west of Philadelphia
pagangodess - Small town Ontario, near Ottawa
pellenaka - Denmark
plin - Bologna, Italy
ponygirl - Toronto
pr10n - Farmington, Utah (20 minutes from Salt Lake City)
Purple Tulip - Upstate New York, near Canada
Rahael - London
Rattletrap - Norman, Oklahoma
ravenhair - Just Outside Memphis, Tennessee
redcat - Honolulu, Hawai'i
rendyl - Just South of Montgomery, Alabama
Rob - Rockland County, NY...about 40 minutes from the City
Rochefort - Detroit, Michigan
Ronia - Washington, D.C.
rowan - Southeastern Pennsylvania, NW of Philadelphia
rowena - Little Rock, Arkansas
Rufus - British Columbia - Just Outside of Vancouver
Sara - Upstate New York, Northeast of Albany
Sarand - Queens, New York
Scroll - Mississauga, near Toronto, in school at Waterloo
Sebastian - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
The Second Evil - An hour west of Washington DC
shadowcat - Brooklyn, New York
Shaglio - Northeast Massachusetts -Danvers, MA
Sharon - Johannesburg, South Africa
Shiraz - Columbus, Ohio
Shiver - Northwest New Jersey (relocated from West Virginia)
skpe - Irvine California (5 minutes south of Disneyland)
Slain - A small village near the small town Chorley, Lancashire, UK
Slayrunt - Akron, Ohio
solstice - New Orleans, Louisiana
Sophie - New York, New York
Sophist - Los Angeles
Spike Lover - East Texas
SpikeMom - San Diego, California
squireboy - Toronto, Canada
SugarTherapy - Suburbs of Minneapolis, MN
Talia - Atlanta, School in Philadelphia
tam - Newton, Massachusetts
Tchaikovsky - Winsley, near Bath, England
Tillow - Southeast NY/Bordering Jersey
tim - Columbus, Ohio
tomfool - San Francisco
tost - Roswell, New Mexico
Tracton - Be'er-Sheva, Israel
Traveler - Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Tymen - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Tyreseus - Las Vegas
valkyrie - Fort Worth, Texas
vampire hunter D - Susquehanna Valley in Pennsylvania
VampRiley - Southeast Pennsylvania, North of Philly.
Vegeta - Minneapolis, Minnesota (Formerly Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
verdantheart - Provo Utah
Vickie - Santa Clara, California
Walking Ghost and the Pocket Editor - Dayton, Ohio
WickedBuffy / WickedWhatever / etc, etc, etc - Eugene, Oregon
Wilder - Rock Hill, South Carolina
Wisewoman / dubdub - Vancouver, British Columbia.
Wolfhowl3 - Milton Ont, (about an hour away from Toronto)
yabyumpan(maybe) - Hackney, East London. UK
yuri - San Francisco to Montreal, Canada
ZachsMind - Dallas, Texas
zargon - Dallas, Texas
Zoey - Clemson South Carolina
zoomusicgirl - Warner, New Hampshire

[> Wow! I mean, wow! -- Tyreseus, 15:01:34 07/19/03 Sat

You ever have those moments where you truly realize what the World-Wide-Web means and it blows your mind for a few minutes? I was scanning the list to see who was closest to me and it suddenly struck me.

BTW - I'm not sure whose closest, but I used to work in Farmington, UT (pr10n), so it gets an honorable mention as "most obscure location" (as in not-well-known) that I've actually been to.

[> Lincoln NE (1st time poster) -- Anne, 16:39:37 07/19/03 Sat

Lincoln NE by way of W. Hartford CT, West Lafayette IN, Ann Arbor MI but originally Canadian. I have been reading this board for some time and it is always thought provoking and amusing (ie sham/poo thread - I will never look at that word the same way again.)
I first started reading the board at about the same time Darby asked about everyone's life stories. That was my intro and I was blown away. I have kept coming back.
Also I think Buffy was some of the best tv I have ever witnessed.

[> [> Welcome Anne. A word about your posting name -- Sophist, 16:57:54 07/19/03 Sat

There is a woman who occasionally posts here under the name Anne. You may want to distinguish yourself in some way to avoid confusion.

[> [> [> Thanks-I'll try Ann (without an E) -- Ann, 18:17:50 07/19/03 Sat

I hope that is okay with the other Anne. Thank you.

[> [> Welcome, Anne..(North Carolina poster here, Darby, but everyone already knows that) -- Random, 17:03:35 07/19/03 Sat

Glad you decided to delurk for a moment. Hope to see more posts and I'm happy you enjoyed the Shampoo thread.


[> [> [> Shampoo gets em every time.....:):):):):):):) -- Rufus, 18:08:09 07/19/03 Sat

[> Akron, OH...But I go to school at Miami University in Oxford, OH by Cincy... -- Nino, 17:15:34 07/19/03 Sat

[> Re: Location, Please! -- LittleBit, 17:22:42 07/19/03 Sat

Still in Columbus, Ohio. Despite appearances to the contrary, I'm not living on the road ;)

[> Update: I'm no longer in Waterloo since I've graduated! Just Toronto now... -- Scroll, 18:10:21 07/19/03 Sat

[> [> graduated? mazel tov, scroll!!! -- anom, 07:39:22 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> Thanks, anom : ) -- Scroll, 16:06:49 07/20/03 Sun

[> University Park in the Maryland suburbs of DC -- fidhle, 19:06:44 07/19/03 Sat

[> McLean, Virginia (not that it matters much, since I can't go to meets but...) -- Alison, 19:26:15 07/19/03 Sat

[> Actually, I moved to Brooklyn, NY about a year ago. -- Sophie, 19:42:15 07/19/03 Sat

[> Uhm Darb? It's shadowkat not shadowcat... -- s'kat (not wanting to be too nitpicky ;-), 22:58:04 07/19/03 Sat

Still in Brooklyn, NY though.

[> [> Corrected -- D, 02:59:29 07/20/03 Sun

[> Are there really more posters from Vancouver than LA? (but we post alot!) -- Dochawk - who is mystified by having only 4 posters from LA, 00:21:09 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> Re: Are there really more posters from Vancouver than LA? (but we post alot!) -- Yellow Bear, 09:47:05 07/20/03 Sun

Did any posters in LA head to Comic-Con this weekend for the Whedon & Angel writers panel?

Not a comic or a con fan but I was considering it for awhile until life stuff held me back.

[> [> [> Re: Are there really more posters from Vancouver than LA? (but we post alot!) -- Dochawk, 10:58:57 07/20/03 Sun

See my post in the DVD thread above and then a full report to follow

[> [> [> [> Saw it & looking forward to more -- Yellow Bear, 09:38:52 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> Is Los Angeles really a big city? -- Cleanthes, 11:39:19 07/20/03 Sun

I thought it was just a lot of Hollywood hype.

[> [> [> Native Angeleno -- Rina, 14:09:20 07/22/03 Tue

Speaking as a native Angeleno, I assure you that Los Angeles is extremely big.

[> [> [> Re: Is Los Angeles really a big city? -- heywhynot, 11:25:14 07/23/03 Wed

Los Angeles is the second largest city in the US populationwise and the LA metro area is also the second largest. Its metro-area (including parts of Orange and Riverside counties) is around 16 million residence. The NYC metro (which includes parts of CT, NJ and all of Long Island) area is around 21 million. The third largest metro atrea is the Chicago metro area (which includes Kenosha WI and Gary IN) with 9 million. So yes LA is big. Not only that, LA is a city without a real center is like one big sprawl. Compare downtown LA to most other major cities and it is relatively empty. Some writers have tried to argue that LA is truely a post-modern city.

[> Los Angeles, CA (Westwood, actually) -- Yellow Bear, 00:30:58 07/20/03 Sun

[> Re: Location, Please! -- Kenny, 04:26:27 07/20/03 Sun

Ostensibly Huntsville, AL, although sometimes I feel fairly nomadic. That changes in about three weeks, though, when the full-time answer becomes Charleston, SC.

[> [> Re: Location, Please! -- mamcu, 16:18:17 07/20/03 Sun

Hope you found someplace to live in Charleston! Hope you'll like it (get ready for serious humidity, but you'll be too busy to notice).

[> [> [> Re: Location, Please! -- Kenny, 06:47:26 07/21/03 Mon

It looks like I've found a place a block from school. I think I'm going to have to move in without seeing it, though, which is a bit scary. Oh well. Can't imagine that the humidity can be any worse than that in Alabama. AC is a wonderful thing.

[> [> [> [> Gee, the Hellmouth -- mamcu, 10:52:18 07/21/03 Mon

I guess they didn't mention the...strange ocurrences...there, did they? Might want to bring a really big can of Flit (monsters Buffy never imagined!) Guess they have them in Alabama too, but maybe they don't call 'em Palmetto Bugs.

[> [> [> [> [> Ah, Southern bugs! -- Darby, 16:33:50 07/21/03 Mon

When I lived in Memphis, the cockroaches in the biology building (no spraying allowed) occasionally sported license plates.

When you stepped on them and removed your foot, they'd look up and say, "Is that all y'all got?"

[> [> [> [> [> [> YOU stepped on THEM? -- mamcu, 19:12:55 07/21/03 Mon

Actually, OT, I drive a Beetle & was planning to get a GSAMSA vanity plate. Speaking of the combo, that is.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Big Bad Philly roaches.... -- meritaten, 01:24:21 07/22/03 Tue

I saw some nasty bugs when I lived in Philadelphia. I don't even know the name of one, but is was a good six inches long, looked liked a HUGE roach with wings, and was IN MY APARTMENT!!!!. I didn't sleep for a week.

My friend had a terrible infestation of roaches. They were impervious to the effects of both the microwave oven and the garbage disposal. After she microwaved a roach and it walked away unscathed, she all she could say was, "Great, now I've got teenage mutant ninja roaches!".

[> Where I am held political prisoner -- Diana/lunasea, 09:39:02 07/20/03 Sun

Yorktown, VA for me. Should be here the next two years and then for the first time in pretty much ever, I will get to decide where I want to live.

[> Rochester, NY (another new guy) -- BMF, 11:02:47 07/20/03 Sun

I have posted a couple of things here before, but I've mostly lurked for the past year or so, greatly amused by some of the most intelligent and hilarious writing on the Web. Buffy was the only TV show that I ever enjoyed to the point of actually scheduling time to watch it and THINK about it, so this site has been one of the best intellectual stimuli I've ever encountered. Keep up the good work.

[> [> Welcome, BMF...sorta, since you've already poste a couple times ;o) -- Random, 14:38:17 07/20/03 Sun

[> Update -- Eric, 15:25:21 07/20/03 Sun

Escaped from Oklahoma to Leavenworth, Kansas. Escaped from there to very sunny climes to hang out with the British. Still consider Santa Barbara/Sunnydale home and will return.

[> [> Update unclear... -- Darby, 11:26:34 07/23/03 Wed

So are you somewhere in the Heartland, in England, or just want SB as a default?

[> Re: Manhattan, NYC -- sdev, 16:28:08 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> Ditto -- Sofdog, 13:39:15 07/23/03 Wed

[> Kansas City, MO now, Chicago in a month -- AngelVSAngelus, 22:16:53 07/20/03 Sun

making me officially near absolutely noone. I can't ever join the gatherings, unfortunately.

[> [> But Chicago may be the next BIG one - check the archives for Rob's thread! -- Darby, 06:12:07 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> I'm semi-Chicago -- mamcu, 19:09:26 07/21/03 Mon

Actually just came back from a great stay and my SO is still there--but I work in SC, so now I'm back for the duration. Chicago is wonderful--in the summer, anyway.

[> Add me to the list -- Elenphant/Hathir_child, 00:04:35 07/21/03 Mon

I'm from Lenox, Massachusetts. Starting this October, I will be in York, England, for a year.


[> Re: Location, Please! -- Chris - about 60 miles north of Philadelphia, PA, 03:21:02 07/21/03 Mon

Mainly a lurker here, but have posted a few times. Love the discussions. Thanks.

[> Davis, California -- Anneth, 10:10:10 07/21/03 Mon

(though I'm often to be found in San Francisco)

[> Tucson, Arizona -- Meritaten, 01:52:29 07/22/03 Tue

[> Madison, WI -- curious, 10:05:48 07/22/03 Tue

[> Re: Location, Please! -- Isty, 10:48:40 07/22/03 Tue

Burlington, North Carolina

I've been lurking for months now.

[> New Haven CT for the next three plus more years -- heywhynot, 11:16:59 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> Mill Valley, CA - another mostly lurker here! -- akaNikki, 19:55:29 07/24/03 Thu

by way of Houston, TX - I relocated in 2001 after 25 years in Houston.

[> [> [> is 'aka' part of your regular nom de keyboard? -- Darby, 20:15:06 07/24/03 Thu

[> well, we know there are 2 lurkers in vancouver, right? (c'mon, you guys, post!) -- anom, 22:22:11 07/24/03 Thu

interesting program description -- leslie, 10:28:44 07/20/03 Sun

This week's LA Times television section describes "Storyteller" thus:

"Buffy and company might not be happy to find Andrew trailing them all day with a video camera in hand, but he gets the worst of it.... He and the gang end up facing the Seal of Danzalthar, a creature that transforms students into demons that breathe fire...."

So, I guess those points opening up are this Monster Seal clapping its flippers?

[> LOL! thanks leslie, I needed a laugh! -- WickedBuffy, 19:21:10 07/20/03 Sun

[> Re: interesting program description -- Elenphant, 00:11:18 07/21/03 Mon

This reminds me of a funny thought I had while watching the seal open and close once. You know that origami game kids play, where they write numbers/words/colors, etc. onto a piece of paper and fold it so that there are pockets that open and close? You put one finger into each pocket and ask another person questions, and based on the answer, you move your fingers and open a pocket with the answer. It sort of applies to S7 as a whole - the shifting walls, misleads, the characters all sort of having their 'fortune' read, seemingly random pieces seeming to be thrown together....


[> [> That was a really great S7visual, Elenphant. :> -- WickedBuffy, 13:51:10 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> Thanks :-) NT -- Elenphant, 21:09:55 07/22/03 Tue

First Comicon Tidbit - CWDP -- Dochawk, 12:30:06 07/20/03 Sun

There were so many individual juicy details that merit discussion, I thought I'd break them up. And I also have alot going on so it makes it easier for me.

In response to a question about CWDP - Joss said Joyce was definitely the First. Noone asked where all the destruction came from though (since the First is incorporeal). And Buffy not choosing Dawn was Buffy not choosing Dawn to participate in the final fight. sometimes Joss said the payoffs are less than the anticipation.

[> Re: First Comicon Tidbit - CWDP -- Dochawk, 12:31:25 07/20/03 Sun

Now that I am lookign at my notes, Joss didn't say that about the payoff/anticipation - that was my comment I added after.

[> [> Re: First Comicon Tidbit - CWDP -- Yellow Bear, 13:02:07 07/20/03 Sun

Keep 'em coming, Dochawk.

Your line about anticipation & payoff is interesting. Whedon & Co. do such a good job of teasing out our expectations early in S7 (From beneath you, Joyce, etc.) that I'm not quite sure what could have matched.

[> Looking forward to your reports, Doc! -- ponygirl, 16:57:39 07/20/03 Sun

[> Other ComiCon Tidbits -- fresne, 09:01:09 07/21/03 Mon

Ah, yes ComiCon. Wonderful and fabularific stuff. And good seeing Doc again.

However, I also return to face quite a bit of catch up, so, I too will only dribble tidbits. Alas, I had no pen or I'd have taken notes.

My favorite Joss moment was when he was discussing the Potentials becoming Slayers. He said something like power should be shared and that the final concept is that we don't need heroes, because we are all heroes. His response to the SR question was indeed very good and rather more complex than I want to deal with having only had one cup of caffeine. Since it hinged on a point of taking responsibility for your own actions, okay, yes, this is why I give this man my adulation. Oh, and apparently he's on Methadone to deal with his adulation addiction.

There was quite an amusing moment later in the Writers' Panel when Mr. Man of the Fury said that the reason there weren't more crossing apocalyptic threads between the two shows was that they are on different networks and it's very hard to bring the two of them to a climax at the same time.

Alas, a room full of comic/Buffy fans turned out to have their minds fully and truly in the gutter. Much laughter and ensuing jokes.

Danny Strong asked how whichever (pls don't make me look it up) writer who killed him felt like to be a murderer. Seems the answer is, not bad really.

Joss then got up and asked the Writers' panel whatever happened to that Danny Strong guy anyway and Ole Capi-tan Mal hit on the two female writers (who appeared to belong to a hive mind) on the panel.

On a non-Buf related note I saw the later half of the panel on Van Helsing and Hugh Jackman (and unrelated to the movie) sang Summer Lovin from Grease. Both parts. Sandy's bit in a falsetto.

For several hours at least, I renounced all other actor/character allegiances.

Oh, and Gaiman/McKean's Mirror Mask sounds incredible. Messed up. Bizarre. The costume photos they showed were amazing. Gaiman is also working on this comicbook arc called 1602 that sounds incredible. Take Marvel characters and plop them down in 1602 for reasons to be explained later.

Really, the problem was that there were so many people to worship and so little time to do it in.

Resulting in a fresne both mildly hyper and exhausted at the same time.

[> [> Wow -- ponygirl, 09:42:52 07/21/03 Mon

I'd be on overload after such a weekend. Joss! Drew! Neil Gaiman! Hugh Jackman singing! Summer Lovin! My brain is melting just thinking about it.

Did anyone ask Joss to briefly explain the First's plan including why it killed the Potentials, dug up the Scythe, targeted Buffy and friends but didn't kill her when it had the chance(s)? Too much to hope for I guess.

[> [> [> Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- Rob, 12:29:44 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- Yellow Bear, 14:08:05 07/21/03 Mon

I know how you feel. Re-watched the whole of S7 a couple of weeks with the fervent belief that it would make sense but alas, it was to no avail. I still can't figure out for the life of me why the First needed to kill all the Potentials if his whole plan was to release the Ubervamp army.

Loved so much of S7 but the lack of plot resolution is deeply unsatisfying.

[> [> [> [> [> To kill off the slayer line. -- fidhle, 14:54:04 07/21/03 Mon

The FE needed to kill all of the potentials before killing the existing slayers to prevent a new slayer from being called. Of course, being evil and not necessarily the brightest, the FE missed some potentials. We know that not all of the potentials were in Sunnydale where the ubervamp army was. If even one potential survived the slayer, the slayer line would continue, thus thwarting FE's plans to permanently alter the balance between good and evil.

I think the ubervamp army was there to help kill all of the potentials, but Buffy and crew took the fight to them before they were really ready.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: To kill off the slayer line. -- Yellow bear, 15:04:54 07/21/03 Mon

I know. I know. We all have our theories but you got admit the whole thing is just a little to vague on the details.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- heywhynot, 10:57:14 07/22/03 Tue

Didn't the First state its reason for the army of the upervamps? The First wanted to end the balance between good and evil. It wanted the world to be overrun with minions of absolute evil. Once that was achieved the First would be able to walk the earth, no longer having to restrict itself to being an inclination, a tendency in humans. The First wanted to be directly involved in the affairs of the world. Humans in turn would all be slaughtered and the First would rein over Earth. Basically once all hope is lost, despair would overtake the world and the First gets to have its jollies. Evidently the First came to the realization it could do this because of something the slayer did.

Why kill the potentials? Because they are weak at that point. Easy to kill. Kill them all off, and then the Slayer and bye-bye Slayer. Hope ends and despair overtakes the world as the army of Evil overtakes the Earth. Could the First used of the scythe for its own purposes? Probably, since the First and Caleb wanted to remove it from the rock and said they planned to use its power. One spell (Willows) activated the potential in all the slayers using the Scythe. Another might of killed all of them and might of given the First the demon essence used to activate the slayers.

Was it all neatly explained during season 7? Nope but lets face it neither was the initiative, Glory (and the two other hell-gods), who brought Angel back, Dawn being the key and why the key had to survive, why any particular girl gets chosen to be the slayer (random selection of potentials?), Dracula & his castle, Amy's mom in the trophey, how in the world a smallish city like Sunnydale has a UC campus, a small college, a freakin' big mall, yet was said to have nothing for young people to do save go the Bronze. Lots of questions have and will always be unanswered in BtVS, why because the show is not like other shows. Not everything is tied up in a neat little package. There are always more questions left unanswered. For everything we learn about the universe we live in, the more questions we have. Glad BtVS could carry this level of realism within its fantasy world. IMHO makes the show deeper and richer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- Yellow bear, 11:33:22 07/22/03 Tue

Fair points all. I would say that BTVS had never been a heavily plot orientated show so you could dissect plot issuses with nearly every season if you were so inclined. I think S7 stands out because of the sheer number of plot elements that fail to come to fruition. I mean did anyone believe that no one would ever mention Giles visit to Beloix Eye again after 'Showtime'? That the disruption in the slayer line would never have any explanation from someone, anyone as the series finished up.

Again, I never saw BTVS as particularly plot orientated (if plot got me all exited, guess I'd be watching 24) but the lack of clarification was vexing this season.

Thinking a little further, the issues may be less about plot sense than paying off expectations. The Joyce sequence in CWDP of the Showtime sequence above practically beg for some sort of on-screen pay off and it never really comes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Heh heh. I like the way your brain works, pg. ;o) -- heywhynot, 12:48:35 07/22/03 Tue

To me though the disruption in the Slayer line was explained. Buffy was the disruption. She was the chosen one yet the title moved on to Kendra and then to Faith yet she still went on living, being the Slayer. The one in every generation rule was cast aside since the end of season one. The rule of death was cast aside twice for Buffy, she came back to be the Slayer after months of being dead. The First realizes if the forces of good can ignore the rules so can it. The Slayer line is forever changed by Buffy's being brought back to life. No one realizes this save the First until Buffy realizes she can totally toss out the rules herself and activate all the potentials.

The rules of the game were never as rigid as anyone thought them to be. The limits were always artificial. The First through Buffy's actions came to realize this. The whole balance thing between good and evil was just an artificial limit to be tossed aside by the First. Buffy by the end of season season also realizes this as the rule of one is totally thrown out the window. None of the characters verbally connect the dots back to the words of BE because well it did not matter, saving the world did.

To think of it the rules that many shows follow were openly mocked and turned on their head by BtVS. Who is to say that a plot point must be obviously concluded? The rules of TV. Why do we want them to be? Because those are the rules of good TV we are told. Why does every single build-up on a TV show must have a major pay-off? Because that is what we are taught are the rules of TV. Why does do words by a dead character have to pay off big on BtVS? Because that are the rules we have established in our minds regarding the show.

Season 7 was about power on so many levels including with regards to the show. The power to determine how the show ended was not in our hands, nor was it ever really in our hands. Our powers were to watch or not, to praise, critique, complain but in the end only Joss really had the power of creation regarding Buffy. Each of us has the power to create our own Buffy's in our heads, but the Buffy we all collectively watched was under his power. This season I think especially had the creators having fun playing around with the watchers (us). In a manner of speaking we have always been the Watcher's Council trying to dictate what a Slayer should be and act. Think about the whole Giles not touching anything, the BE, "Joyce's" words, etc. we all jumped around with our theories but in the end what was to come of it all lay in the hands of ME not ours. We were constantly reminded this season of this fact, we did not have the power. But in the end what happened? The story of Buffy did not end. It was left open ended. The limits placed upon us as watchers were let go. The watcher's council was destroyed like in the show. We were empowered to take Buffy's character were we wanted.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Really Enjoyed Your Final Paragraph -- Yellow Bear, 15:08:38 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, sorry about the typos. Way too much time in lab *NT* -- heywhynot, 16:49:55 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ditto on that last paragraph! -- anom, 20:54:09 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> another ditto on that last paragraph! -- meritaten, 02:10:29 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> Nope - But More later -- Dochawk, 13:39:16 07/21/03 Mon

Nope Potentials not really addressed. Somebody started to ask a Kennedy question and the questioner got booed (he had already asked 2 questions). I agree with how Joss responded to the SR question (and liked the way DeKnight answered it too).

I had alot of problems with Joss' answer to the Spike/Buffy romance in season 7 though. Full details on that to come (Gee I feel like an LA network news cast here - full teaser mode).

[> [> [> [> What is the SR questions? Is this Seeing Red? My abbreviation skills have falled me. -- Yellow Bear, 13:55:31 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> It's the AR question that we've discussed ad nauseum. -- Hoping this doesn't start yet another discussion, 18:34:04 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thought as Much (these abreviations are too darn hard to keep track of) -- Yellow Bear, 19:07:31 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> Fury....networks climaxing together.....snerk......;):):):):) -- Rufus, 23:21:29 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> Gutter brains! A roomful of 'em. -- deeva, 08:30:32 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Well, then there's what Davo said about how... -- fresne, 09:06:44 07/22/03 Tue

to get a job with ME.

You have to sleep with Joss.

Then Ben Englund, who apparently needs massive quantity of coffee to survive and I just had never pictured as such a goth, slacker, Clerk kinda guy, said,

"Yeah, it's a sticky proposition."

At which point we lost it again.

Then there was a running joke where this one person was asking David Fury a question about Lilah, which he misheard to be about Eliza (as in Faith). So, he starts rattling off and keeps getting interrupted, "No I meant mumble, mumble." And he'd talk about ED some other way. Finally, the moderator leaned over and he's all, "Hey, I know who Lilah is, I'm old. I just didn't hear it." Or something like that.

So, for the rest of the panel periodically, DF would just shift questions to Faith, ED, True Calling, etc. Or joke about his relative age.

DF also claimed that Joss must come up with a new show, because DF needs to stay employed.

[> [> [> [> [> Heh - different perspectives -- ponygirl, 09:52:47 07/22/03 Tue

I just read a rant by the woman who asked the Lilah question. She was very upset at what she saw as a Spike/BtVS takeover of the AtS panel and took the Eliza mistake as proof of how out of touch ME is with AtS fans.

Everyone's got a different piece of that elephant...

[> [> [> [> [> [> That's really funny -- Yellow Bear, 11:22:58 07/22/03 Tue

Nah, people don't read too much into these things. No, not at all.:)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, the sacred perspective -- fresne, 19:54:18 07/22/03 Tue

Mainly I think DF just had Faith on the brain. The writers were asked who their favorite characters to write for were and he picked Faith.

Course, he also wished he'd written FfL, which would have been interesting.

Ponders FfL written by a series of other writers: Conan Doyle, Aristophanes, Anonymous.

Given that I yelled out "Spoon" when a certain someone was introduced, I wouldn't have minded any number of panel hijackings. Alas, not even the question did Nancy Holden realized that Christopher Golden had a wrecked ship motif that kept showing up in the comic could derail that panel from it's sacred and "say what!" rounds.

Damn them writers fur not seein' that what AtS needs is more Tick. Angel standing there, arms akimbo, proudly declaiming oh, something. "Hang ten for justice. A chili sulks in his tent. Read a book."

I think Angel would look good in blue. After all, he is well nigh invulnerable. And for all I know, he fought Teddy Roosevelt, back when he was evil. Sorry, E-vil!

[> [> [> [> [> y'know, there are fans who'd consider that a bonus -- anom, 11:23:18 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Oh, and Joss thinks Clem should have his own show -- fresne, 09:17:49 07/22/03 Tue

One More before I leave for work - Angel Premiere Oct 8 and new WB poster -- Dochawk, 13:12:04 07/20/03 Sun

The WB introduced a new poster for Angel at the con yesterday and the best part of it was the date for the Premiere - Oct 8. But, for those of us afraid it will be the Spike show, Spike is given equal wait to DB and is in the front position.

[> Re: One More before I leave for work - Angel Premiere Oct 8 and new WB poster -- Yellow Bear, 13:31:22 07/20/03 Sun

I wouldn't worry that much about Angel becoming the Spike show. WB advertsing shouldn't have too much affect on ME storytelling. Plus the main thing the WB wants to tell audiences this year is that Spike is on Angel now.

[> If you want to see it -- Diana, 15:32:05 07/20/03 Sun

It's already up at ebay


It is well done, but I think Dochawk is right. The WB just want to show off their new blond toy.

[> Re: One More before I leave for work - Angel Premiere Oct 8 and new WB poster -- s'kat, 16:16:07 07/20/03 Sun

But, for those of us afraid it will be the Spike show, Spike is given equal wait to DB and is in the front position.

Not this again.;-)

I'm spoiled for the first episode and I can honestly tell it is not the Spike show. (Even though, personally if I were Queen of the World, Spike would be the lead of his own show, but I'm not and Spike is supporting and believe me the first episode? It's ALL. About. Angel.)

He's front and center in the episode, with the others supporting like always. Nothing has changed.

[> [> Not to open this can of worms, I hope -- Diana, 16:40:43 07/20/03 Sun

But I have been thinking about the concerns that Spike will take over Angel. Not that I have them. In Joss I trust. He got through his lesbian kiss, he got through the flaying of Warren. He will tell the story that he wants to. That story does not have Spike as the main character. If it changes so that it does, I will have to adapt. Only in the boards does Spike rule, so far.

I think the real concern is that this season on Angel, the other characters were really developed, especially Fred and Lorne. Who knows what is going to come out of the White Room with Gunn. Wesley has his own large following. Angel has as devoted a fan base as Spike and we are used to our champion being the primary focus of the show. It isn't quite as ensemble as Buffy.

Over on Buffy this season, we saw Willow, Xander, and relegated to minor players, if we could even call them that. Anya's character was pretty much dropped as was Dawn's. The only one that received any serious screen time was Spike. It is easy to blame that on JM and his cult of personality, but that was where Buffy's story was S7. The show is in its final season. Does anyone really think they were slaves to ratings? Have they ever been?

What might be interesting to explore isn't blaming JM or Spike fans for the lack of Scooby presence this season, but why the writers felt that they weren't needed for this part of the story.

[> [> [> Don't worry about it. Trust me, based on first episode spoilers? Not happening. -- s'kat, 16:44:53 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Re: Don't worry about it. Trust me, based on first episode spoilers? Not happening. -- s'kat, 16:47:58 07/20/03 Sun

In fact at this point, several people are wondering if he'll have more than ten minutes per episode. OR even be in all the episodes.

The plot of the first one has been released and without giving away anything - trust me when I tell you, while Spike is important, he appears to be the C plot of the ABC arc. Gunn, Fred, and Angel are featured.

It's like all the other seasons of Angel.


[> [> [> [> [> i said I wasn't worried. -- Diana, 16:59:47 07/20/03 Sun

I was just trying to explore where such worries were coming from. To be honest, it might be good for Spike fans to really ask themselves how Spike fits into the story rather than how the story can be molded to fit him. Then they should prepare for 10 minutes an episode, if they are lucky, with the rare Spike-centric episode (probably when certain someones show up). Since the show is going less arcy, I would say that as much as Spike was just points along the curve rather than the curve itself and the audience created his arc, the same thing will happen on Angel even more.

Spike is an interesting character, but if Joss wanted to write the Spike story, he would give him the spin-off instead of waiting to see what happens with Eliza Dusku. I'm not sure if the audience would like the Spike story that Fury/DeKnight/Goddard/Bell/Whedon/Edlund/Craft/Fain would write.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: i said I wasn't worried. -- s'kat, 18:08:20 07/20/03 Sun

Ah, but you sounded worried see. Besides wasn't really talking about you, but the worriers in general - and there are quite a few, well not that many, maybe 20. And they seem oddly enough to be the one's who don't get the structure of the show, or like you said, they would know Spike joining it does not detract from the others. Illogical structurally. Not that I think this is the case.
I honestly think people are just reacting emotionally to data, and emotions aren't always rationally based.

I think you underestimate fandom or read too much into posts. Since I misunderstood you to be worrying - it's actually quite an easy thing to do. We often react to what we read emotionally, without really reading it first.

While I did make the snarky remark that if I was Queen of the World there would be a Spike show and I'd prefer more than ten minutes of him - I do realize his role in the show and the universe. I also know there will be more than ten minutes of him, there certainly was in S4, he had a sizable arc that season actually. Obviously - if anyone has read my essays on the topic. Btvs and Ats are tv shows - built around a central character or lead, with supporting characters, they aren't ensemble shows - like Firefly was. (Although I have a hunch that if Joss Whedon can turn Ats into an ensemble show he will attempt it this year - he prefers the format. And DB isn't a diva personality, so he may be able to pull it off over there, who knows?? I don't. Can't tell from what I've seen what they'll do.) At any rate - Spike's role has always been the foil. From the moment he first appeared it was the foil. Do I enjoy the show better when he is onscreen? Yes. But I still watch it when he's off. He's never been the lead, he never will be, any more than Wes, Fred, Gunn, Lorne, Giles, Willow, Anya, Xander ever were. But suffice it to say, many many fans watch shows for the "supporting" characters not the leads. I know I watch Alias for everyone but Jennifer Garner's Sydney Bristow. Sydney annoys me - but I adore LEna Olin, Ron Rifikin, Victor Garber, Will ...I tolerate Sydney. And no I'm not obsessed with that show and can miss episodes. La Femme Nikita on the other hand - drew me in b/c I loved the lead. And I've watched Angel since day 1, because I happened to enjoy the lead. I honestly don't think pulling any Btvs character over to Angel is going to work, if people don't like the character of Angel (and there are lots of people who don't) but who knows, maybe? Truth is we have no way of knowing. And most people's tastes escape me.

What I actually like most about Spike is that he is the supporting character. The foil. The metaphor. I never know what they'll do with him. Lead's arcs are easy to predict.
Let's face it - we know a ton about Angel without ever looking at a spoiler: he'll survive, he will be redeemed,
he will be the hero, and he will be okay in the end. And as long as the show is on the air - he will be unlucky in love, just as Buffy was. Because again? LEad.
Spike? Anything goes. Same with Wes, Gunn, Fred and Lorne.
That's why people find them more interesting. It's also why the writers find them more interesting - as supporting characters. The moment they become the lead - central character - your hands are tied. Because Angel was the lead - they couldn't make him as evil as they did on Btvs, when he became Angelus - he's the lead. Same with Buffy - couldn't turn her as bad as they did Willow, she's the lead.
The lead can never really be evil or go nearly as dark..especially in tv. So what do you do? You bring in great supporting characters and you build arcs around them doing things that challenge the lead or for the lead to react off of, or have the lead do something slightly off for them to reacte off. What BTVS and ATS does extreemly well is create great multifaceted supporting characters.

Just because someone prefers the supporting characters to the lead does not mean they don't get the arc or the structure of the story or the characters roles. They do. Possibly more than fans of the lead do, actually.
That's one of the reasons, ironically enough, they prefer the supporting characters.


PS: uhm a couple of your statements above were offensive,
you might want to watch making broad pronouncements about fans of certain characters? It tends to push peoples buttons. Just a suggestion.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Damned if I do... -- Diana, 18:41:25 07/20/03 Sun

I try to hedge things a little, and I come off worried. I get a bit more forceful and I come across as offensive. I give up. Sigh.

I think Spike fits perfectly in the role that Cordy just vacated. For 4 seasons she was Angel's shadow, which gets a bit more complicated than the shadow that Spike was for Buffy. Spike represented parts of Buffy that she repressed (and in many cases needed to and should repress). Angel's shadow is more complicated than this by Angel's complicated nature. Season 1-3 Cordy was parts of Angel that he repressed, but he wanted to get in touch with again. Season 4, Angel's shadow went somewhere else. Who among us on some level wouldn't like to create the perfect world? The "villain" that Cordy became was the perfect contrast to Angel's development.

Now we have something else to complicate Angel. He will have to find a way to reconcile his mission to help the helpless with being in charge of Wolfram and Hart. I see lots of repression going on in order to do that and Spike representing what Angel is repressing. It should get interesting.

Where Spike's strength lies is in Pathos. That does best in small doses. I do think that Wes or Fred could pull off their own shows, just like Willow or Giles could. Even Gunn and Xander could sort of. Spike and Cordy couldn't.

I like writing the leads. They can't get that dark, so you have to figure out other ways to do things. S2 AtS was amazing where they took him to get to his Epiphany. I like S6 BtVS and how they got her out of the Grave.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Damned if I do... -- FYI to Diana, 18:52:06 07/20/03 Sun

The WB just want to show off their new blond toy.

THIS was kind of offensive. And makes it seem like you might not mean some of your other comments. Just FYI.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> For Christs sake, Joss said it much earlier -- Diana, 19:41:05 07/20/03 Sun

Hello, everyone. I have a really wicked sense of humor. I am sarcastic as all hell. Just like many of the writers, which is why I don't find any of what they say offensive.

So now that you know that, if you find something offensive and not quite a scholarly examination of the topic, it is more than likely just an attempt at humor. If that isn't your type of humor, blow it off. If it is, then laugh.

Seems pretty simple to me

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually that wasn't it, this was: -- Helpful, 08:50:34 07/21/03 Mon

Spike fans to really ask themselves how Spike fits into the story rather than how the story can be molded to fit him.

they should prepare for 10 minutes an episode, if they are lucky, with the rare Spike-centric episode

Comments like these start flame wars and fan wars and push buttons. They also inspire people to avoid reading the poster.

The rest of the post was fine. Just probably a really really good idea to stay away from making assumptions about fan bases.

Remember everyone watches the show for their own reasons, the fact they like and watch it, should be enough. Otherwise, it wouldn't even be on. Respect others obsessions.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay.... -- meritaten, 02:38:17 07/22/03 Tue

I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but not everyone sees the offense. I like Spike, but I agree that the series "Angel" shouldn't become the series "Spike". If I really wanted to be offended, I could probably find a way, but ....

I guess we all need to sensitive to the volatile subject of Spike, but if we become TOO sensitive, don't we all lose? It is not as though Diana said, "Spike sucks - Angel and Buffy forever." Personally, I don't want to hear only the opinions that I like - even if the subject is Spike.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay.... -- sigh, 07:59:20 07/22/03 Tue

Wasn't about Spike, you nit.

Was that you might not want to talk about "fans"
of Spike. Telling "fans" that you've never met what they should or shouldn't do. That's not character analysis or about Spike at all. It's about the fans.

It would be like stating that fans of Angel should understand that his arc isn't the most important...

If she removed the frigging stuff about fans would have been fine. Unless of course you want someone to write a discourse on Angelworshipers?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not okay -- Rahael, 08:19:41 07/22/03 Tue

I don't know who you are but I'm curious to find out whether you'd have called another poster 'a nit' if you'd actually put your own posting name to that comment.

Surely if one is advocating civility, which I agree is a very worthwhile thing to advocate, it should be advocated in a civil mannner?

I understand that you probably posted in anger but Meritaten doesn't get to come out and post on the mainboard all that often because she wants to remain spoiler free for eps that she hasn't seen yet but US viewers do (excuse me, Meritaten if I got that wrong - going by memory here), and I felt bad that once she did get to discussing stuff here she got this response from someone who is not willing to own their words.

I hope I don't upset you with my post right here, but at least you know who to get upset about right? And I'm more than willing to apologise if you feel I've spoken in an intemperate manner. It's the anonymous nature of the comment that made me respond here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree, Rah. I, too, am curious. -- LittleBit, 08:32:05 07/22/03 Tue

If I recall correctly, Meritaten travels a great deal and has to catch up on the episodes when she can. So it is always a treat when we have the pleasure of seeing her here.

It is the anonymity of the poster that motivates me to back you up here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, and.. -- Rahael, 08:45:00 07/22/03 Tue

I didn't mean to inadvertantly imply that I think it's not okay to reply anonymously to some people and okay to others.

Looking at the thread, I notice Diana too has been replied to anonymously by more than one poster.

I don't also mean to imply that it's some terrible sin, but I hate that even I have started thinking "God, these anonymous posts are so irritating! Maybe I should tell them, anonymously of course, because I don't want to get involved in a flame war under my 'real' name."

And then you realise that it's just so infectious that pretty soon the board will be full of people who know each other pretending that they aren't who they are.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're Curious? I thought you were LittleBit :-) -- Diana, 08:56:14 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Damn, I was going to use that line... -- ponygirl, 09:03:08 07/22/03 Tue

But I do think people posting anonymously is a bit confusing. And raises the question of whether some might be replying to their own posts, or trying to intentionally stir up controversy.

Let us all post honestly under our own made up names!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm always a Little Bit curious ;-) -- LittleBit [enquiring minds want to know], 09:25:35 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Is she not the cutest thing ever? ;o) -- Rob, 13:10:26 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll take credit for the "blond toy" complaint.. -- curious (because another poster has my real name), 10:01:57 07/22/03 Tue

I was irritated (not really offended) that Diana had gone back to her old snarky self so quickly after the big explosion on the board the last couple of weeks. I stopped reading her posts again. Much happier that way.

I agree that the "nit" comment to the poster who was not here a for a few weeks was uncalled for. S/he had no idea where the frustration came from.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It was me, It's one of the reasons -- SK, 16:05:43 07/23/03 Wed

i've decided to leave the boards.
I lost my cool. Regretted it. And decided it was time to
leave. When visiting a board is no longer fun and makes you angry, it's time to say goodbye.

Apologies to meritan. I didn't mean to hurt her feelings.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It was me, It's one of the reasons -- meritaten, 21:42:31 07/23/03 Wed


While I did take offense at your post, I am truly sorry to see you leave. I have made a point of reading your posts as they as are always thought-provoking and interesting. I will miss your posts and the insight they provide.

I didn't mean to cause problems. Apparently, the ill-feelings were a result of other posts that I'd missed. Perhaps I should have refrained from posting, but ... well, based on what I read, I got the impression that someone was deliberately (again, my impression) misunderstanding Diana, and I felt the need to let her know that not everyone was taking offense. I truly didn't see the reason for the ill-feelings and I would have felt pretty lousy in her place. I've been away for some time, and I have only just "met" Diana, so I have no cause for any ill-feelings towards her. Except for this little exchange (which I would consider over except for the concern that this was part of your decision to leave), I have no cause for any ill-feelings towards you either.

I wish you the best, and do hope that you will return to the board. I will definitely miss your posts.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I once kicked the wall... -- sdev, 22:00:47 07/23/03 Wed

I thought it was sheet rock but it was concrete. I broke my big toe. That was worse, really stupid way to express anger.

Don't beat yourself up. You owned. It's over. In the short time I've been here I've seen much worse.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks so much for your support -- Diana, 08:34:04 07/24/03 Thu

Everyone, both on board and off board. I am sorry that my sense of humor has been interpreted as either mean or nasty by some. I will try to include things like emoticons or [BEG] (which means Big Evil Grin), so that people are more aware when I am not being serious. That tends to be most of the time, so I hope that you like little smilies :-)

If I do leave one off occassionally, please forgive me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks so much for your support -- Arethusa, 10:09:56 07/24/03 Thu

I'm embarrassed to admit that I too thought statememts like Spike fans are molding the story to fit their Spike-love and "the audience created his arc" were insults. Emoticons or little statements like "Just joking!" would be great, and help prevents these misunderstandings.

As you probably know, we sometimes use our Evil Aler Ego names when we want to let everyone know our post is going to be snarky. Since you're Diana, perhaps your could call yourself something like Janus, the two-faced god, which is the masculine form of Diana. Oh well, I'm sure you could think of something better.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Can't we all just get along :-) -- Diana, 08:52:51 07/22/03 Tue

One of the early post in this thread was telling Angel fans and/or people that are concerned about Spike taking over (which I am NOT concerned about. In Joss I trust) not to be worried. The fans of a particular faction are addressed all the time. If I did think that Angel was going to be shoved in a basement somewhere, I would be telling us to get prepared for this.

Both factions have attachments. The main difference between Angel fans and Spike fans is that our character is the main one and we don't really have to worry about what happens to him. His trips into the dark are just to give him his epiphanies. He makes lots of mistakes, but he always picks himself back up and soars even higher. That is the nature of being the main character. His is the story the writers are telling, so he gets involved arcs and lots and lots of screen time. If he is killed, we know he will return somehow. There really are no worries.

Not so for anyone interested primarily in a secondary or tertiary character. It causes a protectiveness, that unfortunately is stiffling discussion here. There are some really interesting things about Spike people are afraid to talk about because anything that is perceived to be negative about the protected character starts some pretty out of control flame wars. This isn't just me and my tone. I know some incredibly rational people that have been on the board long enough to have the "right" tone, who will not post. It really is a pity.

And for this reason, because of the extreme emotional attachment that has been demonstrated on the board, I did warn people. It was half tongue-in-cheek, but to be honest, it was half concern. I would be willing to bet some serious money after a month of episodes, some people will come here and complain that Spike isn't being appreciated either by AI or ME.

Pity that those are the comments that can safely be made about Spike.

Oh well. The Buffyverse is populated by many interesting characters and we can still talk about them freely. So lets see what I can come up with today. Might actually have something interesting to say about Wood.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd like to announce right now that I am none of these posters. -- WickedBuffy, 10:19:55 07/22/03 Tue

Sorry to interrupt for a few moments.
Just to protect my back, I feel I need to make this statement.

Before I am called some inaccurate and horrid names (again) on this Board, I want to make it very clear that I have not posted anything in this thread except the two totally nonthreatening comments below with my name clearly on them. And that anything I post, if it did have a relevant name as a poster alias, would have my actual posting initials name at the bottom of the post.

Like this:


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I did know it wasn't you -- Rahael, 12:08:06 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh and -- Rahael, 12:11:41 07/22/03 Tue

I thought that old board kerfuffle was over. Until I chanced to look at the posters profile last week. Clearly not.

It was certainly over on my part.

email me, okay? I certainly don't want to get into this on the board again.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Where is the ballot box for that Queen of the World thing, s'kat? -- WickedBuffy (gonna stuff it for you) }:>, 14:04:33 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> oh thanks...LOL! if I ever find it, will let you know ;-) -- SK, 18:26:21 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's locked in my basement. I'm waiting for Angelina Jolie to nominate herself. -- Finn Mac Cool - King of the World - deal with it, 11:16:11 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Honestly... -- Alison, 18:43:49 07/20/03 Sun

I'm not worried about how much screen time Spike will get, but rather what the writers will do to his character. I love Spike, and I loved his arc on Buffy- and loathe as I am to loose him, I thought it was a very good ending...he came full circle. So I worry that all his growth could be destroyed- which not only will ruin his story, but make it impossible for me to watch Angel. OTOH, the writers could do great things with Spike- and there's always the dream of a Angel/Spike ship. One can only hope....

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Is it ok if I still bitch about missing Cordy, even if the season hasn't started? -- Nino, 18:53:38 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Bitch away! Queen C'd be proud. -- Alison (missing Cordy too..sniff), 18:56:36 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just finished an Angel Season 1 Marathon. Full of Cordy. -- WickedBuffy, 14:11:22 07/21/03 Mon

... and every time Cordy came on, we'd groan and start whining - missing her even more after watching her in the good old early Angel days.

(Back when she was goofier and had more Sunnydale in her.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Honestly... (sort of spoiler, so for purists only don't read) -- Dochawk, 23:48:33 07/20/03 Sun

Well on that count I think you can be reassured by both what Joss said "Spke made a huge sacrifice and we are aware of that and how much he had grown when he moves to Angel". Also DF said something similar during the writers panel.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh I know what Joss said.... -- Alison, 23:56:01 07/20/03 Sun

but "in Joss we trust" is just not holding up for me anymore. This whole situation makes me nervous- I love both Angel and Spike....and I have the feeling that at least one of them will suffer in the character developement department. ::deep breath:: "Joss has a plan...Joss has a plan..think of Restless..."

[> [> [> [> [> [> OT - question about casting reference.... -- meritaten, 01:14:12 07/22/03 Tue

"waiting to see what happens with Eliza Dusku."

What is the story here? (I was in a Buffyless place for months, and - in order to remain unspoiled - had to refrain from listening to Buffy news until I got home and watched the videotapes.) Is Joss thinking of a spin-off with Faith? Is Eliza Dusku thinking of starring???

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: OT - question about casting reference.... -- curious, 10:19:30 07/22/03 Tue

There was a possiblility that ED might do a spin-off with Faith but she opted to do another show on FOX called "Tru Calling" (I think that's right) in the fall instead. But this show is scheduled on Thursdays - opposite of several popular shows and may not last. So - I think JW might be hoping ED may end up doing a spin-off in the future after all if her new show fails.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- meritaten, 01:06:42 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> But based on this, I can't read this thread! -- Darby, 17:17:11 07/20/03 Sun

I don't want to know what's not happening - it's not as bad as knowing what is happening, but it is spoilage.

I had to avoid reading the post in order to put this here...

[> [> [> [> [> [> Skip Whedon's interview too then. -- sk, 17:33:14 07/20/03 Sun

Sorry, didn't realize how broad the spoiler definition is.
Am off spoilers as of today, anyways...finding the whole thing frustrating.

No "real" plot spoilers in the above. Except that Spike isn't going to be the central focus of the show. And uhm well...didn't you more or less assume the show wouldn't be all about Spike? Isn't that implied by the title?
I mean honestly people - if they were going to do a show based on Spike they would have done one by now. It's all about Angel. Whedon isn't interested in doing the Spike show, even though James MArsters is a favorite of his, why? Because what would he call it? Not Angel?? Spike works best as the trickster - the cog - the supporting player. Much juicier role for an actor too.

Am I the only person whose finding people worrying about Spike taking over to be incredibly silly? Saying he's not, should hardly be a spoiler.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Most of the Comic con stuff has spoilers in it...as well as the interviews -- Rufus, 17:42:31 07/20/03 Sun

Plus you are only duplicating all the stuff on the Trollop Board.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry Ruf, was busy trying to make a point. -- s'kat, 18:10:15 07/20/03 Sun

Was trying to point out that Spike isn't taking over the show. Not just sharing info. And doing it badly.



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sorry Ruf, was busy trying to make a point. -- Rufus, 19:32:59 07/20/03 Sun

Don't worry.....everyone goofs here and there and it's when we are making a point that some of the spoilers kind leak out. I know that there are some here that don't even want to be spoiled for new cast so I'm very careful about what ends up in message subjects. I guess I'm Spoiler Trollop by trade and the First Virture in charge of board purity...;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm intrigued to find out how much mileage there is in Spike and Angel bonding -- Celebaelin, 17:44:51 07/20/03 Sun

They have more in common than just a history now. But how will having Buffy in common affect things. Has Angel even been told about that yet? Or figured it out?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Skip Whedon's interview too then. -- Yellow Bear, 18:25:56 07/20/03 Sun

No, you are not the only one who finds people worrying about Spike taking over the show to be a little silly, but given the last seaosn of BTVS I can see the problem for some.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I too am going spoiler free...its tough! -- Nino, 18:56:07 07/20/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> People have good reason to fear Spike's return -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:40:44 07/20/03 Sun

At various points in Season 7 of "Buffy", people were either complaining they didn't do enough with Spike or they did too much with him. The latter half of the season being most recent in our memories, it seems odd to think people would complain about "not enough Spike". But, in the first half of the season, Spike often got very little screentime, often about five minutes or so, and spent a great deal of that either the First Evil's prisoner or insane in the basement. I remember one post very clearly that said having Spike on screen but not doing anything (such as in most of "Bring on the Night") was a horrible waste of James Marsters's charisma.

People do have good reason to fear Spike coming to "Angel" because, no matter what you do with the character, there's always going to be a faction that doesn't like it and isn't shy about saying so.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I, for one, hope Spike DOES take over the show. (and Cordy) -- Rochefort, 23:30:42 07/20/03 Sun

I hope he bites Connor, and Gunn, and that little one that Westley likes and Lilah and blows up Wolfram and Heart and then he finds a way to bring Cordy back to life. Then that he misses Xander and Willow and calls them over to visit. He leaves Angel alive and talks to Buffy on the phone all the time and they say sweet lovin things on the phone all the time with Angel in the room and then Spike puts his hand over the mouth piece and says , "Oh Buffy says hi." And this all happens after Angel becomes human. And gets even fatter eating donuts all the time. Xander and Cordy get back together. Spike joins the Red Wings. Westley tries out for Bat Boy the Musical and he meets the chick that plays Shelly and she becomes a regular on the show. Eventually Angel is getting no love at all and he gets bored and wanders off the show, but nobody notices. Or he lives in a garbage can in an alley and they knock on his can when they need something like on Sesamee Street and he sticks his head out and everyone goes back to calling him "The STINK guy." And every episode has a "Word of the Day" and the weird green guy with horns gets beheaded in a fight. His head gets put in a box, and every weekend the gang gets to open the box and and he will grant one wish that will come true. I can't believe ME hasn't accepted any of my scripts. :(


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> HAHAHHAHAHA!!! This made my day! Please write it like a proper episode! -- Marie, 02:58:40 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Here's one scene. -- Rochefort, 21:03:27 07/21/03 Mon

The Opening Credits -- "My Way" played on Cello.

Spike. Spike fighting. Willow. Xander. Spike playing hockey. Spike and Macguyver fighting side by side. Wesley in a white top hat and tuxedo tap dancing on stage. Angel rolling on his back in some brown mushy stuff. Xander and Cordelia having a picnic. Spike walking towards the camera with his coat billowing. Everyone shouting because someone said the word of the day.

Scene 4

A Dark Alley. Spike, Willow, and Xander are fighting ten vampires. They appear to be winning...barely. There is a large crash of cans as Xander is thrown. Angel, smudged with dirt, a rat between his teeth, sticks his head out of a can on the other side of the Alley.

Angel: (Taking a live rat out from between his teeth). Hey! Can't a guy eat a meal in peace around here? Jeez.

Xander: You know Stink Guy, you could lend a hand occasionally.

Angel: I'm human, remember? No super natural strength anymore.

Xander: But you still eat rats?

Stink Guy shrugs and takes a big bite.

Spike: Xander, look out! (He dusts a vampire) Keep your head on the fight. We have to finish this. I have a game in Detroit this evening. First round of the playoffs. I got you and Willow front row tickets. I'M going to eat Chris Chelios today.

Willow: About time.

Spike: ... and play the whole second period with no shirt.

Xander and Willow: (as they each dust a vampire) Yayyyy!

Spike: Then we're going to go to New York and see Wesley as Mr. Mestophelees in CATS.

Xander: Aw mann. I hate Cats.

Willow: Xander, we have to be supportive. I mean you and Cordelia are back together, but all of Wesley's girlfriends are dead. All he has are his plays.

Stink Guy: (Looking around the Alley licking his lips) I like cats.

Spike: Yeah poor Wes. Maybe I shouldn't have bit that one chick he liked.

Willow: You were just being Spike.

Spike: Hey you want to ask the weird green head with horns in a box if we can wish for Jenny to be back on Ripper with Giles?

Willow: Sure! I mean last week he granted us the wish of having Ripper be on prime time american network television, so why not?

Xander: I'm never going to have MY own show.

Stink Guy: I have MY own show. This is my show. Maybe if you hadn't gotten so fat and shaggy, Xander, you'd have one, too.

(Xander looks ready to put Angel out of his misery.)

Spike: He's not worth it, Xander. I'm glad you're on this show with ME.

(Parker comes crawling down the Alley, clearly feral.)

Xander: Oh not him again.

(Angel and Parker start growling at one another. They leap at one another as if to begin a bloody fight. Everyone tenses.)


(Angel and Parker continue their leap at one another. They fall to the ground and roll in the trash giggling.)

and so on....

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> These, like, need to be framed ot something. lol. -- deeva, 08:28:38 07/22/03 Tue

What a way to start a morning. The visual is priceless.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More!!! Please do the Angel-listening-to-Spike-on-phone-to-Buffy scene? -- Marie, 08:52:37 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! And he'll do it all with his shirt off? -- MsGiles, 05:35:29 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> lol! stop, it hurts! -- deeva, 08:35:04 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> He didn't get much screen time in 'Lessons'. Just saying. -- KdS, 02:19:36 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Recent Joss Whedon Interview, backing me up (Casting and format Spoilers) -- s'kat, 16:57:25 07/20/03 Sun


'Angel' returns

Contrary to statements by WB executives in May, "Angel" executive producer Joss Whedon says, actress Charisma Carpenter may appear on the drama series again. Though she's no longer a series regular, Whedon said, he wants Carpenter to return to give closure to her character's story. Carpenter's Cordelia ended the season in May in a coma.

"That's what we want, but it's dependent on her schedule," Whedon said Sunday at a WB party. "We know what we want to do; it's just a question of when to do it."

"Angel," which has decent WB-sized ratings in original episodes but doesn't perform well in reruns, won a late renewal reprieve in May. The end of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," from which "Angel" was spun off, helped "Angel's" case.

"With the departure of 'Buffy,' we thought we had a great opportunity to grow the show," said WB Entertainment president Jordan Levin. To that end, executives asked Whedon to write more self-contained stories.

"Last season was basically a 22-hour episode," Whedon acknowledged. "We started the show saying we'll be stand-alone, and then, I don't want to say we failed so much as decided that wasn't what we were really interested in. Now that we have an almost unwieldy cast, we can do stand-alone episodes but still have character resonance in them."

James Marsters, who played the vampire Spike on "Buffy," will join "Angel" in the first episode, but Whedon wouldn't explain how the character, killed in the "Buffy" finale, will be resurrected, except to say the amulet he held during his demise will play a role in Spike's revival.

"The second episode deals with what the hell he's doing there," Whedon said. "In the old version of the show, we might have stretched that out for a lot of episodes. In the new version of the show, by the end of that [episode] you'll know why he's there and, more importantly, what part he plays in the ensemble."

Now that Team Angel will be working for its former nemesis, the evil law firm Wolfram & Hart, it will vacate its hotel base and move into "swank new apartments."

"The [hotel] lobby was beautiful, but eventually it was a giant room with all of our people standing around talking, and our writers would just want to kill themselves trying to find a new way to do that," Whedon said of the pending set changes.

A new character, who "might just be a little bit sexy," will join the show as a go-between at Wolfram & Hart. Characters from "Buffy" and "Angel" episodes past, including conniving Lilah, may return, but the only one confirmed so far is the ditzy vampire Harmony."

It's episodic/stand-alone. So instead of an entire season on why Spike's back, we'll get one episode. Each episode deals with a different scenerio. It's more like S1 and parts of S2, than 3 or 4 or even Btvs S7. So no one character is going to be the focal point all the time, except of course for Angel - who is the lead. He'll always be more front and center. Think Alias.

[> [> [> [> [> My take on S5 format -- Valheru, 23:55:51 07/20/03 Sun

From what I can decipher from Joss's interviews, I envision a format akin to BtVS S3, rather than AtS S1. If he was going for a S1 format, "anthology" would no doubt pop up as the description (since I've not heard him describe S1 as anything but).

BtVS S3 grew out of the Angelus storyline, a giant saga at the time. But rather than having Angel's return dominate the season, it was relegated to B and C plot status (except for "Amends"). Once the S2 epilogues "Anne" and "DMP" were out of the way, S3 relied almost completely on stand-alones. Yes, the Mayor/Faith arc was the driving action of the season, but it wasn't as integral to the seasonal theme as the Big Bads in the other seasons. IMO, if there's no Faith, S3 is still brilliant. When I think of the season, it's the stand-alones that stand-out, and while Faith and the Mayor are the antagonists of "Graduation Day", the real catharsis comes from Oz's "we survived" realization rather than from Faith's coma or the Mayor's kablooey.

Will S5 of AtS be like that? I really hope so. In the past few years, ME has tried to be more daring with their arc construction, stretching certain plots/themes over the course of more and more consecutive episodes. AtS S4 was ME's "Great Big Episode" (even bigger if you consider how strongly it tied into S3), and they pulled it off better than anything I've ever seen on network TV. As I've (and others've) said before, Season 4 was "24" done better, but I really doubt if they could hold everything together for a "48". They had to ditch the super-serial or else run the risk of collapsing under the weight of too much story.

It's not something we haven't seen before. Really, only BtVS S7, AtS S3 (mostly), and AtS S4 are the only seasons Joss is trying to avoid. So it's not so drastic a thing as people seem to be afraid it is.

Now watch Joss prove me wrong...

[> [> [> [> [> [> What I worry about is how they'll handle the standalone plots -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:00:37 07/21/03 Mon

Think about it: Angel now runs the LA branch of Wolfram & Hart. That means that all the resources we've seen W&H use in the past can now be used by Angel. Which makes me worry for two reasons. First, it would be way too easy to deus ex machina the story by saying, "ooh, we just realised we have this particular weapon/spell/device stored away that can solve the problem in two seconds!" Second, now that Angel has quite possibly hundreds of W&H assassins and special ops teams under his control, is there any real reason for him to go out and personally kick evil's ass? I've got a feeling people might get bored if Angel's like, "There's a demon causing trouble? All right, send somebody to take care of it, and I'll do lunch."

Oh, and this may just be me, but does anyone else just not like the sets from "Home"? Something about them (maybe the lighting, maybe the color scheme, who knows) just irked me. If this is what the majority of the sets for Season 5 are like, I guess I should be prepared to be irked.

[> [> [> Let's just concentrate on the important things... -- ponygirl, 16:51:50 07/20/03 Sun

Like how in the poster it looks like they're almost kissing!

Just one head tilt away...

[> [> [> [> Heh, heh, that's what I thought! -- Rahael, 16:54:59 07/20/03 Sun

I can see the icons being made right now!

[> [> [> [> I couldn't access the poster... -- s'kat, 16:58:58 07/20/03 Sun

Keep getting error messages. Any one got a better link??

[> [> [> [> [> Trollops has it -- ponygirl, 17:05:30 07/20/03 Sun

Both as a link and the actual picture:


[> [> [> [> [> [> Ohhh...thank you!! That is one cool poster. -- s'kat, 17:36:19 07/20/03 Sun

First thought that came to mind was S/A slash. Second thought? They should do it. Those actors even have chemistry in print. ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> S/A's practically canon, anyway. -- HonorH, 23:05:57 07/20/03 Sun

Joss has never given me any reason to believe the Fangsome Foursome were anything other than a *very* incestuous little clan.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! -- deeva, 08:32:26 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> as long as it's not S6 Buffy -- MsGiles, 09:18:39 07/21/03 Mon

Angel becomes strangely reclusive, everyone assumes it's because of Buffy, (there's no Cordy to winkle out the truth). He spends long hours out on his own, and comes back strangely bruised. Wes and Gunn make sympathetic comments about the hours he's working: 'out there pounding the Big Bad again then?' Harmony starts hanging round Spike, but she doesn't get suspicious when he asks her to wear a threequarter-length leather coat and read Sartre. A/S fans, initially delighted, suddenly realise none of them are having any fun. Spike can't decide whether he should get rid of his soul, or get a different one (maybe), or go bad, or go good, or what, and settles for a new bouffant hairdo, eyeshadow, and a glamrock makeover. Angel eventually throws him out, and he ends up homeless and unloved, crashing at Lorne's place, where they bicker endlessly.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> BWAH! Am I sick because I'd pay good money to see that? -- HonorH, 11:33:03 07/21/03 Mon

Well, yes, I'm sick in the first place, not necessarily because of that, but stop avoiding the question!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd pay to see it too. -- deeva, who has been called worse things than sick ;o), 11:51:14 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd pay to see the opposite, flip it, if anyone had the guts. ;-) -- s'kat, 18:30:50 07/21/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ho Ho! and then Hmmm.... -- MsGiles, 04:11:30 07/22/03 Tue

Harmony has decided to forgive Spike, and has teamed up with Amy to resurrect him. When he comes back (it's a bit of a mess, because without any Urn of Osiris they've made do with an Art Deco lampstand) he becomes like late S3 Angel, introspective and prone to flashbacks. He gives up the candles and satin sheets and moves into a minimalist apartment in LA, getting a job lecturing on ethics at the local college (night school). He lets the bleach grow out, and goes back to looking like William, and wearing corduroy trousers.

Angel has been getting more and more into party mode, and has secretly mixed all his blood stocks with vodka, so he's permanently half cut. When he's not karaokeing, he spends his spare time at the weapons cabinet, thoughtfully fingering the weapons. Returning home singing late one night he bumps into Spike coming back from his class, deep in thought, and they get into a huge argument about whether good can exist without the presence of a soul, and why Angelus was such a bastard.

In the course of the increasingly heated argument they find themselves climbing to the top of a nearly completed skyscraper. As dawn breaks and the fight starts getting physical, they are protected from the sun by a barrage of heavy machinery erecting the top of the skyscraper around them...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> this is of course the early evening BBC edited version -- MsGiles, 05:53:34 07/23/03 Wed

so when the next ep starts with them both naked no-one here will be able to work out quite how that happened. The skyscraper will have been completed. Angel: "Where did that come from?"

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL -- Celebaelin, 16:40:26 07/23/03 Wed

Either version is fine by me, although I was sorta hoping for a Spike vs. Angel version of Derek and Clive. Still undecided about cloth caps as opposed to stupid hair (boufant or otherwise) but I think it's got a lot of possibilities.


[> [> [> [> [> You could try... -- curious, 17:09:19 07/20/03 Sun

a basic search on ebay:

from ebay.com's main page or


then type in

Angel Spike poster

Several posters come up. Probably more this week.

[> [> [> [> I thought the same thing when I saw it. -- deeva, 08:40:56 07/21/03 Mon

I wonder if WB is aware of the Spangel faction out there in fanficdom?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I thought the same thing when I saw it. -- ponygirl, 09:06:13 07/21/03 Mon

Perhaps Chosen's "there could be oils" line was actually foreshadowing? ;)

Bring on the subtextual homoeroticism!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I thought the same thing when I saw it. -- deeva, 10:02:41 07/21/03 Mon

Bring on the subtextual homoeroticism!

Bring it! To qoute a certain ED movie.

I welcome that underlying "something else is there but I'm not too sure if that's what they really mean" element. Cause you know, we thnk too much anyway. ;o)

[> [> Oct 8th? ugh. That's too long. What happened to Sept? -- s'kat, 16:43:06 07/20/03 Sun

Okay...apparently I know that Neilsen's poll viewers during either the sweeps months November, February, May and July (yes July - weird huh? And so does not explain the crappy summer programs we get.) and go back to do pollings
again in Oct, Jan, and March...(according to The Business of Television...) but - waiting til Oct is just brutal.
What happened to the spoiler of mid-September start date?
Buffy at least always started in September.

Okay...sorry, whining over now. ;-) sk

[> [> [> Angel started Oct 6 last season -- Diana, 16:49:54 07/20/03 Sun

I can't decide if this is a good thing or not. It won't have to compete with the newer shows that are released at that time. Smallville will probably do like Charmed did last season for its premier and have both hours.

At least that means I can watch the premier of Greenwalt's show to see if I am going to have my heart broken yet again.

[> [> [> [> Yeah, Angel always starts late... -- s'kat, 17:01:49 07/20/03 Sun

Which can be a good thing - since doesn't compete with premiers of new shows, but a bad thing since people get hooked on the new shows and may not switch over.

Wish I had Neilsen box sometimes...oh well.

[> Re: One More before I leave for work - Angel Premiere Oct 8 and new WB poster -- Miss Edith, 11:25:20 07/21/03 Mon

JM was essential to Angels renewal from what I head. Therefore it makes sense that the WB would promote the heck out of him. Not necesserily an indicater of how the creative team themselves will handle Spike.

The writers (Fury and Tim) have made it clear that they are aware of fans concerns, and asked if we could all wait and see. Even the actor has spoken recently about articles blaming his character for destroying Bts, so I would have thought there would be a real effort not to overuse Spike.

*Out of the Chair* - Coda for Season Seven (a.k.a. 'The Endless S7 Review') ... Part IV -- OnM, 19:41:47 07/20/03 Sun

~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part III ) ~ ~ ~

It's been several days to a week since the last time we visited the dynamic uno and his negative-space
counterpart, and quite frankly not an awful lot has happened since then. Emphasizing the latter point, we notice
that OnM is currently kneeling down on the midway landing of the 2nd floor stairsteps, eyeglasses in hand as he
peers at a piece of peeling painted wallpaper from a mere few inches away, studying it intently. We are
momentarily startled by a loud banging/thumping sound as The Third Evil briskly exits the door from the
basement, partly drained brewski bottle in one hand, thumping his chest with his other fist to coax up a belch as
he deftly taps the basement door shut with his foot. Turning the corner, T3E then begins to head up the stairs
towards the bathroom, but stops at the landing as OnM doesn't move out of the way. After a pause of several
long, frustrated seconds, he sighs loudly, then:

Evil Clone: So are you going to fix it, or just stare at it? I mean, it's been like that for months.

OnM: Hummm, actually it's a bit worse. More of it has pulled away from the wall, and the curvature is
greater also.

EC: (like that was an answer) Ahh-huh...

OnM: (tilting his head to one side slightly for a new vantage point) I'm trying to decide what type of
curvature this represents. It doesn't seem to be a pure arc-- that is, not a truly circular section. But it isn't
parabolic either. In fact, it's more like a compound curve.

EC: (O dear god...) Ahhh-- huuhh. And this is of supreme import because?

OnM: Because the mathematical nature of the curvature could give a clue as to the reason the wallpaper
dislodged from the plaster in the first place.

EC: (rolling his eyes and shaking his head) Newsflash, dude. The roof leaked, the wall got wet, the
paper peeled up. End of story. Are you gonna fix it today, or try to get a research grant first?

OnM: (sighs, leans away from the wall, puts his glasses back on) Yes, the wall got wet, that's the
obvious part. But since I prefer that it doesn't happen again, I want to perform the repair in a manner that
provides the most cosmetic resistance to moisture. This is an old house, and even though the roof was repaired,
the bricks themselves could have small cracks or fissures that could allow a lesser degree of moisture to gradually
enter the plaster. It's all about maximum resistance to entropy.

EC: Speaking of entropy, I really have to, so kindly move yerself outa the way, 'K?

OnM: Huh? Oh, sure. (stands up and moves to one side) You know, if you drank less...

EC: (heading up the remainder of the stairs) It's good enough for Bender, it's good enough for me.
Besides, I like to pee. Besides the basic physical delectation of it all, it also connects me to the great circle of life.
Beer in, pee out. I drink, therefore I am. Metaphysical enough for ya?

OnM: Well, Beer Bad was a highly underrated episode, I always thought. I had to research
Thomas Aquinas after that one.

EC: (calling out from the bathroom) You mean you planned to research Thomas Aquinas after
that one. Like most of your plans, they never actually get done. It's like all these books piled around
everywhere-- you buy them, then read a few chapters, get distracted, and never pick them up again. The same
with movies-- how big is the stack of unviewed DVD's you've accumulated? I won't even go into the kitchen
remodeling project. When did you start that? 20 years ago?

OnM: (back to peering at the peeling wall again) You're only three. You don't understand the serious
limitations life places on someone. Earning a living just gets harder as you age. Your energy dissipates far more
readily, and you become ever more aware of the ever-shortening time you have remaining to get the things done
that you really want to do. (a flushing sound is heard from above)

EC: (clomping back down the stairs) OK, so is it too limiting to get the damn wall repainted or
re-papered or whatever it needs?

OnM: (moving out of the way again as his doppelganger descends) What am I supposed to do? It's just
like the way the paint peels, you know. It's typically such a slow and gradual process that you don't even notice
it at first, then one morning you wake up and look in the mirror and wonder who that old face belongs to? The
shape of the lines changes, the resultant curves describe a different equation, but one that always ultimately
resolves in a null set.

EC: (parking himself on the sofa) Dude. Snap out of it. Way too Season 6 for my tastes. Let's blow up
the high school again.

OnM: (sighs) They'll just build another one. There's another high school. There always is. Maybe the
next one is mine. Get on and climb aboard.

EC: Yeah, yeah, I know, it's why you're secretly afraid that reincarnation might be real. Vote for
Western theology then. All that god stuff is a myths-take anyway.

OnM: (concerned) You haven't been e-mailing anom and bothering her again, have you? If you have...

EC: What, I can't pun now? Another new rule for me to ignore?

OnM: (standing up and moving away from the wall) You can pun, yes, but you usually don't, so
you can see the need for suspicion.

EC: Uhhh, not really. It's an aquired habit, not an inherent one. What, you think Buffy was punning
from birth? (affects high, girlish baby voice) Oooo, hi there mommy! Dilated to see me?

OnM: I wouldn't be suspicious of Buffy because she isn't predisposed to anti-social behavior.

EC: (waves one hand dismissively) Oh, sure she is. If she wasn't, then why would the First Evil appear
in her image?

OnM: That was to rattle Spike and make him return to the fold of evil. The FE wanted to make Spike
believe that Buffy was not the pure soul she appeared to him as.

EC: The pure soul that repeatedly jumped his soulless bones last season? Mighty impure purity that.
(brightens) Hey! That's just like 'false facts'!

OnM: (grimacing) Stop reading the local paper! Fundamentalist wacko word perversions are beneath
you. (walks to the kitchen, opens the refrigerator door)

EC: (grinning) They eat you, starting with your brain pan!

OnM: (re-entering the living room, brewski in hand) OK, that one was pretty good. Maybe I'm wrong.

EC: (shocked look on face at sight of OnM with ale) What?? We need a whole new wall?

OnM: (plopping down on the couch) No, no, no. We need some paint. I'm not gonna repaper the whole
room just now, I'll scrape off a section around the damage, refinish the plaster and plant some paint on the
sucker. I'll take a color sample from the peeled-off part to the paint store sometime this week and get them to
match it as best as possible.

EC: Do they still have 'paint stores'? Didn't Wal-Mart buy them all?

OnM: You forget where we live. There are numerous people in the region who drive a horse and buggy.

EC: And park them at Wal-Mart. So?

OnM: (takes a deep swig of ale) I've looked at irony from both sides now. I really don't know irony
at all.

EC: See, you were hot for her once, and now look. It isn't Judy's fault that everyone thinks she wrote
Amazing Grace

OnM: (grumpily) Not Collins, you doofus. Joni Mitchell wrote Both Sides Now. Collins just
covered it. And she might be irony to you, but she'll always be hot to me.

EC: You just have a thing for Canadians. You let it color your judgment. All those moody, broody,
introspective, intellectual types... I mean, sure, when it's winter for 3/4s of the year, I'd be moody too. First
comes the six feet of snow, then everyone gets all cabin-fevered Bergmanesque-Scenes-from-a-Marriage-y.

OnM: (nodding) I need to drink more. That almost made sense. By the way, have you heard the Blind
Boys of Alabama do Amazing Grace? Whew, that's like, definitive, man. No one will ever top

EC: Sure they will. There's another high school, there always is, right? You said!

OnM: (pausing for a long interval, contemplating the corner of the label that is peeling off the bottle)
Hummm.... Veering towards the Dada-esque, all of this. Must be Sunday. Maybe we should talk about Season 7
again. I'll have to get up and start writing the next part of the Coda soon anyway. I could use some inspiration.

EC: Well, that's the trouble with an endless review. It's... infinite and all. That takes a lot of time, and
weren't you just saying you...

OnM: (jumping up suddenly) Eureka! (clasping hand on forehead) Owwww! (sits slowly back down)

EC: (looking sympathetic) See, now I'm young, and genetically enhanced. I can do that. You mustn't,
OK? You must work hard, earn money, and not stand up quickly.

OnM: (as blood pressure re-adjusts) Ow, yes... anyway, that's the inspiration-- the peeling paint,
the label on the bottle, it's all connected.

EC: (still sympathetic) Really? That's so special!

OnM: It is, really. Just like the fungus. Mildew on the shower curtain, mushrooms on your salad. There
is great meaning vested in the tiniest of natural phenomena, and here, right here in this bottle, and over there on
that wall, we have yet another apt metaphor for the connections between the Buffyverse and the Realverse!

EC: Peeling paint is metaphorical now? (shakes head sadly) You know, if you drank more... oh, you
already said that. Never mind.

OnM: Wait, just stop and think a moment-- what do peeling paint and fungus have in common?

EC: (sighs, going with it) Uhhhmmm... they're signs of entropy, like you were alluding to earlier? A
system in decline, or decomposition?

OnM: That's a reasonable guess, but not quite. The connection is that at a fundamental level, they
are both uncontrollably pervasive and subtle.

EC: (pointing) The wall's not subtle, man. I mean, paint chips are on the floor. And now that you
mention fungus, the residual moisture is doing a mildew number here and there also. Yeeesh!

OnM: Remember when Buffy's mother visited her in a dream? What was the wisdom she was trying to
impart to Buffy?

EC: Which dreams, the ones in Bring on the Night?

OnM: Yeah, those. Here, let's look 'em up. (goes over to the computer desk and quickly accesses a
copy of the script) OK, there were two dreams, the first one is very brief. We are in Casa Summers after the most
recent of the neverending attacks. Xander is complaining that "It's a loop. Like the mummy hand. I'm doomed to
replace these windows for all eternity."

EC: Hee-hee... I loved that mummy hand sequence. It was so kewl!

OnM: (continuing) Buffy is exhausted, since she hasn't been sleeping. The gang is trying to research the
First Evil, and Buffy asks for a copy of the Watcher's Codex. We see a woman's hand extend towards her
holding a book, which Buffy takes without paying much attention. Then there is a voice that gets her notice
quickly-- her mother's.

EC: Yeah, she asks if she can get Buffy anything else, like some tea. (tsks) Typical Joyce, clueless.

OnM: No, that's just it. This is Zen Joyce, all dead and serene. She's trying to impart some simple
wisdom, but Buffy's too wrecked to understand. She thinks that Joyce is the FE.

EC: Well, isn't she? The First? I thought she was the First.

OnM: Unless the writers declare it one way or the other, we'll never know for sure. Personally, I'm
hoping they leave it alone and don't ever answer the question for sure, but the context I'm working within after
the passing of the entire season is that it really was Joyce, or her spirit, more accurately. Note that the script says
that Joyce "looks concerned" and "speaks with genuine compassion."

EC: The FE could be faking it, though. It's done that before with other characters, trying to trick them.

OnM: And I agree that it could try this with Buffy, but you also have to remember that paint
always peels, no matter how hard you try to stop it. It's subtle but inevitable. And with the First, one subtle,
inevitable characteristic stands above all else, which is its need to gloat and feel superior. It always has to push
harder, and so it always goes too far, and then there's the tipoff. Like with Willow and FE/Cassie.

EC: Ahh, I dunno-- I think you're reading into this.

OnM: Joyce tells Buffy that she has to get some rest, that she can't win against 'this thing' if she doesn't
rest. It also tells her that "I don't want to scare you. But I want you to take care." This doesn't sound like the
FE-- what would be its motivation in telling Buffy to get some rest? If Buffy is exhausted, she'll be more likely to
make poor decisions. That should work in favor of the FE. On the other side, I think that it sounds
exactly like Joyce to point out the simple fact that superhuman or not, Buffy has her limits. She
does need to get some sleep.

EC: But what about the part right there where Joyce says "You need to wake up". That phrase openly
contradicts the 'rest' part, doesn't it? Isn't that proof of the 'tipoff' mode you were just pointing out?

OnM: But that isn't completely Joyce saying that, it's Xander, see here? We jump cut to him gently
shaking Buffy by the shoulders and trying to get her to wake up-- she's fallen asleep at the table, studying the
books, and was dreaming. Also, the phrase 'you need to wake up' is idiomatic for meaning obtaining a greater
awareness, or gaining a truthful insight. (genuine awe) This really is Shakespearian-- blending the intent of a
phrase like that, literal on the one hand, with what Xander is saying, and metaphorical on the other with Buffy
hearing Spirit Joyce say it. Joyce is in the land of dreams, Xander in physical reality, Buffy is caught between
them for an instant.

EC: (getting a little chill) Stop that! It's too early in the day for awe!

OnM: (slightly mockingly) Awwwwwwwww.......

EC: (giving up) So back to the paint. You're saying that Buffy is peeling, and Joyce is trying to glue her
back down?

OnM: (chuckles) Well, that's one way of looking at it. I was thinking more along the lines that dealing
with the inevitable necessitates a steady, practical approach. You can't stop the process, you can only redirect it
or defer it, so planning is paramount. Traditionally, Buffy has been reactionary in her battles-- evil happens
suddenly, she stomps it, without much prior thought. Her training by the Watcher's Council accentuates this
methodology, it's left up to the Council to keep tabs on 'the big picture'.

EC: Yeah, that really helped when they got blowed up.

OnM: But 'suddenly' is misleading-- evil is always there, like Joyce tries to make clear in the second
dream. (starts scrolling) OK, it's now later on in the same episode, and we see a shot of Buffy in one of the
school's bathrooms, tired, beaten up by her first encounter with the Turok-Han, and still trying to deal with
doing her second job as school counselor. It's total overload time, but Buffy presses on. She slides up the sleeve
of her blouse, and we see this awful-looking bruise on her arm. Again, a hand reaches in from outside the frame
and touches Buffy. Buffy looks up to see her mother standing by her, looking concerned.

EC: And like before she assumes it's the FE.

OnM: She assumes that at first, but the sense that the image is really her mother is overwhelming, and so
this time around she doesn't fight it. She addresses the 'ghost' as if it were real, and it advises her that she has to
heal-- again it seems to be urging a 'time out' to get things together. Buffy insists that it isn't possible, that
everyone is depending on her to save them, to stop what coming, she can't take a break.

EC: Ah! And here's another sun image, like you talked about in the ep review.

OnM: Yes. Joyce says, "Are you worried about the sun going down? Because there are some things you
can't control. The sun always goes down. The sun always comes up." Buffy then replies that "Everyone is
counting on her" and that "something Evil is coming."

To which Joyce responds, "Buffy, Evil isn't 'coming'. It's already here. Evil is always here. Don't you know? It's
everywhere. No matter what your friends expect of you, Evil is a part of us. All of us, it's natural. And no one
can stop that. No one can stop nature."

EC: But Buffy still resists. She's the Chosen One, she has to stop it. Alone.

OnM: Yup. And the writers punctuate that dilemma rather neatly by having Buffy suddenly wake up,
and finding herself back at her desk in her office, with a very unhappy student sitting across from her, not
appreciating her snoozing in the least.

EC: Naturally, he's got his own problems, and saving the world isn't one of them. Selfish bastard!

OnM: Just like in Earshot, everyone is so wrapped up in their own pain, they really don't care
about others. You know, that scene is extra interesting if you consider the Buffy-as-deity metaphor. You think
God gets tired having to listen to us pray all the time? O Lord, give me this, grant me that. Meanwhile the Big
Girl's got badder fish to fry.

EC: (holding up his nearly empty beer bottle) It pays to have simple needs. What did Jethro Tull say
years ago on the Aqualung album? "Lean upon him lightly"?

OnM: (impressed) Very good. And everyone is leaning heavily on Buffy, and it's crushing her. At least
Xander is fixing the windows, so good for him.

EC: By the way, are we ever gonna talk about Xander? You rarely talk about Xander. I think Xander is
a righteous dude. (pauses) Mostly, anyway. About 90% righteous, and that's pretty good these days.

OnM: I hope to get to both Xander and Dawn sometime, yes. I'd like to cover all of the characters in
detail, but there is special need to address the 'ordinary' folks among the Scoobie gang, that's very true.

EC: But you think Dawn isn't ordinary-- didn't you say that you wondered if she was Called with the
rest of the protos when Willow magically distributed the Slayer essence from the Scythe?

OnM: Not likely we'll know anytime soon. It would be pretty cool if that was a subject for a future
movie. But as to the last season, I think it was important for Xander to have another 'ordinary' person around
like himself. There was always a brother/sister bond between them, and while it wouldn't necessarily diminish his
affection for Dawn if she turned out to be superhuman after all, it would inevitably alter their relationship at some

EC: Can we dig out the tape for this ep? I still question whether or not that was really Joyce.

OnM: (shrugs) Sure, why not? Telling you though, it was her. Those scenes weren't the big mislead, the
big mislead was the one that I called accurately way back when the ep first aired, the ones regarding the FE's
plans to destroy the Slayer line forever.

EC: (huh?) But that's what it wanted. Whaddaya mean, big mislead?

OnM: Here, lemme find it. (opens the review and scrolls through it) Humph... got that one wrong,
didn't I? Ah, here we are. I hereby quote me: (reads aloud)

Now we come to the proto-Slayers, or 'SIT"s as most are calling them. One of the great big honkin' misleads
that I picked up upon right from the very first viewing turned out to be one that I have seen very few other fans
mention, so now I have to wonder if I'm missing something here. (...) Why does Giles state that the FE's plan is
to destroy not only the current Slayer, but the chance of any future Slayers from appearing, when as far as I can
tell, this is an impossibility?

Buffy completely accepts this line of reasoning, even details it (paraphrasing) -- "All the Slayers-in-Training
killed, then Faith, and finally me. End of the line, the balance is forever destroyed"

The one thing we have always been led to implicitly understand is that 'One Slayer dies, Another is
'. This is a metaphysical act. It seems ludicrous to me that the FE, even with all its powers,
could manage to find and wipe out every single proto-Slayer on Earth. How, by wiping out every single
female human on the planet? Don't think so! I think that the Council may consider itself capable of locating all of
the protos in the world, but I personally doubt it. In fact, didn't they have trouble locating Buffy? Wasn't she
actually called before Merrick located her?

So my take here is that this is the big lie that the FE wants perpetuated.

EC: (still skeptical) And the proof that you were right was... (stops, getting it) Oh. Oh. OK. Yeah, that
is sorta convincing.

OnM: The FE wanted everyone to think that it had the power to completely wipe out the entire Slayer
line, when in fact this would be all but impossible, as I said. All that was really there was some peeling
paint, a little moldy wallpaper, and everyone's fears blow it up into a giant conspiracy and the need to replace the
entire wall.

EC: Or even move to a new house. (pauses) Ya think we should move?

OnM: (looking over at the wall) Because of that??

EC: Nahh, we really need some more room, dontcha think? The new wall would just be a bonus.

OnM: Cut down on the food and beer intake, and maybe we could save enough to...

EC: (gestures) Ferget it. I'm not that claustrophoic.

OnM: (continuing from the interruption) The proof is when Willow casts the Scythe spell and protos get
called all over the world-- large numbers of them, we are lead to believe. Even if Buffy and her pals had been
defeated at the Hellmouth, Angel is still around, and there are now dozens, maybe hundreds of Slayers. It might
take time, but the world is by no means doomed.

EC: If he knew about them. If she told him beforehand what they were planning. But then (thinking
about it) He works for Wolfram & Hart now-- they'd probably find out about it.

OnM: Not really an issue anyway, since that would have made for a pretty crappy series finale if the
heroine didn't save the day. But there it is-- the Slayer line would continue.

EC: Suppose the Scythe spell didn't work, and Buffy was defeated. There'd be no army of new Slayers.

OnM: But there would still be one, assuming Faith died in the battle. The FE's plan was still a big lie,
just a reasonable sounding one.

EC: (pondering) Humm. I have to admit, this peeling thing could have some merit, unlikely as it sounds.
But the Ubervamp thing strikes me as being more fungus-like.

OnM: (nodding) Well, new theory. Still working the kinks out. Maybe later on we can consider whether
there is a masculine/feminine metaphorical dynamic to the peeling paint/fungus paradigm.

EC: (gets up and heads back upstairs) S'cuse me-- gotta entropy again.

OnM: (sighs sagely and slowly rises from the computer desk) Yes, don't we all.

~ ~ ~ ( To Be Continued ) ~ ~ ~

[> hmm...& i thought that curvature was gonna be... -- anom, 21:32:25 07/20/03 Sun

...the asymptotic curve of your endless review, approaching closer & closer to the end but never quite reaching it. So I'm glad to see you say, "I'd like to cover all of the characters in detail...." Means there's still lots more to look forward to!

And thanks for the personal mention, w/the puns! Don't worry--if EC tried to contact me, he got the email address wrong, or his email looked like spam & got deleted...yeah, that's probably what happened, both him & spam being evil & all. Or, considering that "mythtake" was thoroughly mined on the board (& even on the show!) a good while ago, maybe he just searched the archives. I consider the apex of that effort to be my own "Yeah, you muthta mythed it." Er, um, so it's a little embarrassing to admit that, mm, I don't get the one about "They eat you, starting with your brain pan!" Is that just a joke, rather than a pun? 'Cause that would be a relief. Got my reputation to think of, you know.

I'm hoping to respond to more things in your post (like the actual content, maybe?)...that is, if I can get something written before the thread's archived for once! Or, if I have to beg for it back, 2 or 3 times...my little part in the effort to stave off entropy.

[> [> Antelope Freeway, 1/8 mile -- Antelope Freeway, 1/16 mile -- Antelope Freeway, 1/32 mile ... -- OnM, 05:41:48 07/21/03 Mon

To misquote George Harrison, "All things must archive."

Comment anyway, you don't need to restore the thread, just start a new one and reference mine.

And yes, the 'brain pan' was mostly just a joke, very little punning with the minor exception of the alliterative similarity of 'brain pan' to 'marzipan' and the Dadaesque ref made elsewhere. More than that I can't really explain, this stuff just appears in my head and I write it down and go "hummm..."


[> Re: *Out of the Chair* - Coda for Season Seven (a.k.a. 'The Endless S7 Review') ... Part IV -- Rufus, 00:52:02 07/21/03 Mon

introspective, intellectual types... I mean, sure, when it's winter for 3/4s of the year, I'd be moody too. First
comes the six feet of snow, then everyone gets all cabin-fevered Bergmanesque-Scenes-from-a-Marriage-y.

Okay.....seems you never saw "Strange Brew"...you hoser..;)

[> [> Hey! I never authorized that photo of me and the Clone to be released! -- OnM, 05:53:56 07/21/03 Mon

Wow, wasn't that flick released like about 15 years ago or more? And there's still a website? Amazing. You Canadians sure have perseverence!

Also, wasn't this the film where the MGM lion wouldn't roar, and one of the guys had to go crank him by the tail to 'wind him up'?


[> Actually what you are proving is .. -- Falcifer, 03:38:09 07/21/03 Mon

That the FE got exactly what it wanted. It had no way to destroy or locate all the slayerettes so it dug up the mystical AXE, handed it over to the Slayer, reminded her that "Hey you're alone, non of those slayerettes have any power. Are you listening to me Slayer? You're ALONE. Slayerettes. Power." It got her and Willow to do it's dirty work, activating all those girls who got no CHOICE in the matter. Now it can easily locate all the Slayers, whipe them out and get exactly what it wants.

Not really an issue anyway, since that would have made for a pretty crappy series finale if the
heroine didn't save the day. But there it is-- the Slayer line would continue.

I couldn't agree more about it being crappy. How again did Buffy save the day? Just because Giles thought it was a Brilliant plan to lead thirty Slayers into a cave to battle thousands of Ubervamps? I thought it was W&H that saved the day this time. I guess Spike and the Amulet were just there for window dressing.

Buffy was duped, the FE won, and Joss successfully destroyed the Slayer mythology... Great Final.

I've been reading a lot about "Black Mold" getting into houses peeling paint and leading to health issues, you might want to look into it.

[> [> Truthfully, I'm not proving anything. This is all about the journey. -- OnM, 06:00:36 07/21/03 Mon

But thanks for the tip on the 'Black Mold'. It could explain quite a bit.


[> [> [> I heard it can cause Hallucinations :0) -- Falcifer, 14:41:38 07/21/03 Mon

Spike vs Whistler -- JBone, 20:09:52 07/20/03 Sun

God, jeez, look at you. She must be prettier than the last Slayer. This isn't gonna be easy. The more you live in this world, the more you see how apart from it you really are. And this is dangerous work. Right now, you couldn't go three rounds with a fruit fly!


friday's results

I think I found something this weekend that I can live with for polling and comments, but it's a lot more complicated than the simple cut and paste html that I've skated along with to this point. So, it will probably take me a few beers to figure out how it works, if I can. I'll ask you to continue to post your comments here, for now. And it is comments that I'm looking for, not essays. There is no room in the Apocalypse for essays. Do you get what I'm saying? We like 'em funny. We like 'em brief. We like 'em with an edge. The Apocalypse is an ANTAGONISTIC forum, so let the fur fly! [Not in any meaningful way connected with the ATPoBtVS&AtS site.]

[> Okay, and the contest is . . ? -- HonorH, 20:23:02 07/20/03 Sun

Whistler and his sorry fashion sense would be mulch in two seconds. End of story.

[> [> my comment -- Rochefort, 23:08:51 07/20/03 Sun

Even "Drunk Spike" would beat Whistler: "pffff yeaaaahhhyouu. You think I'mm scarredaaa youuuuuu. I'll show you who's a tough guyy..."

[> [> [> I want to add to my comment.... -- Rochefort, 23:42:15 07/20/03 Sun

I want to add to my comment that after Spike kicks the butt of the guy who TAUGHT Angel everything he knows, he's gonna kick Angel's butt, win this contest, and then TAKE ... OVER... ANGEL'S... SHOW.

[> [> [> [> Woo hoo! -- ponygirl, 06:52:23 07/21/03 Mon

[> I knew this day would come... -- ApOpHiS, 23:13:06 07/20/03 Sun

I know I'm backing a loser, but I don't care. Until the day I die, I will maintain that Whistler is, in reality, a Lovecraftian horror underneath his pedestrian exterior. As the fight begins, Whistler assumes his true form as an 8 story tall Chthulu-esque abomination and sends Captain Peroxide spiraling into a galaxy composed of pure madness. Like the song says, you shouldn't go pickin' fights with people strange to ya.

[> [> Whistler has half the vote! C'mon! Together, we can win the day! -- ApOpHiS, railing against the dying of the light, 23:14:51 07/20/03 Sun

[> Come on people, Whistler can still do it! -- KdS, 02:34:19 07/21/03 Mon

[> Spike, William the Bloody, Spike, Capt. Peroxide, and....oh, yes...Spike. -- cjl, 08:07:36 07/21/03 Mon

Whistler, his pivotal role in the history of the Buffyverse and penchant for the cryptic notwithstanding, never got enough screen time to avoid one-dimensionality. Spike, on the other hand, has developed so many dimensions over his 4.5 years on the series that he's practically a walking tesseract. Spike, with his shiny new soul, won't really want to hurt Whistler, but then Whistler will roll off a ten-minute lecture about Spike and his Destiny, and Blondie Boy, with places to go and people to see, will swat him into next week. Spike all the way.

[> [> a tesseract? you mean, there is such a thing? -- anom, 22:27:35 07/21/03 Mon

Just had to get that Wrinkle in Time connection in. "Walking tesseract"--heh...although now that I think about it, that only gives him 4 dimensions...hmmm.

[> [> [> Yep. Check out this website... -- cjl, 06:29:11 07/22/03 Tue


Brought to you from the good folks at Wolfram Research, a subsidiary of Angel Omniproducts Inc. (Los Angeles).

[> [> [> [> ooh, *cool*! one good turn... -- anom, 12:16:37 07/22/03 Tue

...(of the tesseract, that is) deserves another--ever read Heinlein's --And He Built a Crooked House? Anyone wanting to check it out: it's not too long; however, it is a product of its times, & some of the attitudes are notably pre-PC. (Note: Lunacon is held at Westchester, N.Y.'s Rye Town Hilton, where you can start on the 4th floor, walk through a corridor, & without taking elevator or stairs, come out on the 7th floor. Or vice versa. The 1st year the con took place there was marked by the appearance of buttons reading: "--And He Built a Crooked Hotel.")

About that tesseract page: If the image on the left isn't moving, put your mouse pointer near it. All I saw was an ordinary cube, & I thought my browser was incompatible or something. Of course, that is all you'd see in this 3-D world of our limited perceptions.... I'll have to check some of those links after I get some actual work done.

[> Let's really think about this -- MaeveRigan, 09:12:56 07/21/03 Mon

What do we really know about Whistler? Sure, he seemed to be all non-violent, but remember Buffy in the underworld of the "dark, satanic mills"? "Want to see my impression of Gandhi? [WHAM!WHAM!WHAM!] ...if he was really pissed off." We know Whistler's a demon. We don't know what powers he has. I'll back him against Spike any day. Sorry.

[> What is Whistler anyway -- Diana, 10:40:25 07/21/03 Mon

Never did find that out. Being the Spike hater that I am, lets see how I can justify this :-) (hey give me a label and to paraphrase Liam, a more dutiful poster you couldn't have asked for. I've lived down to your every expection, now haven't I?) (now for the humor impaired, that is called a joke)

Two ways this can go. It was Whistler that made it so Angel can go more than three rounds with a fruit fly, so he has to have some moves. I'll take whomever taught Angel how to fight over Spike's street brawling any day. Whistler being a demon could be vastly superior to Spike physically.

That was boring. Let's see if we can spice it up a bit. The Powers that Be have decided that Jasmine wasn't completely right, but that they should at least care for the demons/people that devote their lives to the cause. They have disregarded the welfare of their Messengers for too long. To make up for abandoning Cordy, they decide to intervene with Whistler. Whistler has been a loyal servant and they aren't going to let him just roll over to Spike. Instead they send him a vision that includes everything underhanded Spike is going to do, plus tons of baggage to bring up to psych Spike out with.

Angel also comes along for the fight and isn't about to see his friend (they did spend quite some time together) lose to Captain Peroxide. Of course Angel is torn. He wants to take Spike out himself, but figures that losing to Whistler will be more embarassing. Besides, Buffy isn't a trophy and this has nothing (or at least very little) to do with her. Angel calls Xander to have him keep Buffy away from the fight. Then he calls Dru and asks her if she wants to play. Dru being Dru is completely on board. Then the two of them sit ringside and make-out. Even though Spike is so over Dru, the sight of this is a bit of a surprise and distracts him. Whistler gets him pinned when in walks Buffy. Seems she figured that Xander was trying to keep her away.

She sees Angel and Dru and goes ballistic. Spike manages to get free and goes over to enjoy watching Buffy yell at Angel and adds a few insults of his own to the mix. That is when Whistler comes behind Spike. Buffy turns around just in time to see Spike turn into the pile of ashes that he should have been seasons ago.

Angel starts to laugh. Then he tells Buffy "I knew you wouldn't stay away" and continues to laugh some more.

[> Re: Spike vs Whistler -- Anneth, 12:38:18 07/21/03 Mon

After several minutes trading barbs, Spike and Whistler take the fight to a local bar and have a drinking contest, a la That Scene in Raiders of the Lost Arc. Whistler crashes ass-over-teakettle while lifting his 23rd shotglass to his lips, leaving Spike to ferret away the winnings and totter blearily out into the night. Spike victorious, without showing so much as a fang.

[> You gotta come prepared... -- manwitch, 12:55:52 07/21/03 Mon

and clearly Whistler is not prepared for this matchup. No one knows exactly what happened to Whistler on the way to this showdown, only that when he arrived he was wearing his rib cage for a hat. That left him easy prey to the very territorial Spike, who immediately recognized Whistler's scent and knew that this was the other guy who had been pilfering from Giles's kitchen. You don't wanna get between Spike and his Wheat-a-bits.

Whistler talks a good game, but he doesn't really do anything when push comes to shove. Spike's gonna put him down and get himself a new hat to go with his jacket.

[> Whistler uh huh uh huh -- WickedBuffy, 14:37:17 07/21/03 Mon

Spike (much as I love the character) would never, ever be able to pull off wearing a hat the way Whistler does.

Raw courage and pure fashion genuis. A certain sense of jauntyness.The guy everybody knows and who seems to know everybody.

Spike is strong and brave and passionate. But Whistlers got pluck - he's a freethinker. And you can't win those things in any demon caves. it has to be natural. The French have a word for it - and I have no idea what it is. But next to that word in a French dictionary is Whistler's grinning face.

[> Whistler Reckons Correctly -- Cleanthes, 14:50:43 07/21/03 Mon

Whether or not Whistler wins this contest, he would win in real life. He would never let himself be blindsided by the unexpected as Spike has repeatedly done.

And, he'd call in the teleologically ineffible to help him out. Result? Whistler by a landslide. QED

The hard call would be Whistler against the Cheese Guy.

[> Zen of Whistling -- mamcu, 18:56:54 07/21/03 Mon

This the guy who knew how to get beyond vamping. We haven't even heard his backstory--but he came out way ahead of Angel and Spike. I'm a Spike lover from away back, but Whistler starts from where Angel and Spike haven't even thought about going.

Jonathon vs Amy -- JBone, 20:08:02 07/21/03 Mon

I'm just happy to have my body back. I'm thinking of getting fat.


yesterdays results

Post comments here.

[> Jonathan all the way -- Anneth, 20:23:58 07/21/03 Mon

Amy, never one for creative thinking, turns Jonathan into a rat. Jonathan, harboring some little germ of high-school-era resentment for anyone with more friends than he (that is, basically everyone else) is suddenly reminded that high school sucked and he wishes poxes on all their houses. And then he realizes - he's a rat! He carries the pox! He sneaks a ride to Casa Madison on the back of Amy's broomstick and secrets himself near enough to her to allow bubonic-plague-bearing fleas to make the leap from his back to her body. Amy contracts the black death and is gone within 24 hours. Jonathan is freed from his ratty existence by her demise and returns to his full stature, victorious.

[> [> Jonathon -- Rochefort, 21:11:59 07/21/03 Mon

I always wanted Jonathon's redemption to be more heroic. But I suppose his failures were always grand sweeping failures, so his redemption in the form of quiet wisdom in the basement of the highschool sort of suits. Amy, on the other hand, pulled off the great trick of making it through 4 and a half seasons of Buffy as a rodent. But that last episode she appeared in MADE... NO....SENSE. Jonathon, with the quiet and gradual victory.

[> Superstar all the way, baby. -- deeva, 22:50:56 07/21/03 Mon

Jonathan, Jonathan. Poor sweet, clueless little geek, how I started to really like you. Then you fell in with the wrong sort. Eh, we'll just overlook that for now, what with you being dead and all.

The kid's got a knack for the mojo. Cast spell over the whole town didn't he? Er, so maybe that wasn't so good. But, hey, presenter of Class Protector Award! And, maybe, he even wrote the speech! And he really didn't want to kill Buffy, at first. Um, forget that las part, ok?

He's the little geek who could. Amy's just the witch that wasn't. Still living in the shadow of her mother, I think.

[> Jonathon..cause we short people have to stick together..;) -- Rufus, 23:18:55 07/21/03 Mon

[> Amy might be the stronger witch, but -- HonorH, 23:37:38 07/21/03 Mon

I just don't *like* her. Thus, I vote Jonathan, who might have taken a few wrong turns in his young life, but redeemed himself before he died far too young and ignominiously. And if I want to back it up logically, there's this: while Amy's return gave us the infamous Magic Addiction storyline, Jonathan's made Andrew into a Real Boy.

That's enough RaNdOm CaPiTaLiZaTiOn for now.

[> Re: Jonathon vs Amy -- ApOpHiS, 23:40:35 07/21/03 Mon

Okay. Originally, I was going to vote for Amy based on the theory that she is the more powerful of the two (that, and because she's hot when she's angry). I've reconsidered, though, and decided that few are the forces that can withstand the awsome might of the magic bone. At the very least, Jono can hit her with it while she laughs at him. Ph33r the magic bone!

[> Re: Jonathon vs Amy -- MaeveRigan, 05:44:56 07/22/03 Tue

Amy thinks she's hot, but that's exactly why Jonathan is going to blow her away. He was actually studying magic while she's been taking shortcuts. Also I just think Jonathan deserves a break, after he repented and then was betrayed by Andrew: Good wins, bad loses.

[> Jonathan Triumphant -- cjl, 06:01:50 07/22/03 Tue

Jonathan, backed into a corner and a half-second away from rodenthood, invokes the Superstar spell and takes command. Amy not only powers down, she profusely apologizes for the misunderstanding, asks for his autograph, and hints about a date for next Thursday. Jonathan politely turns her down. After Amy leaves the field, heartbroken, Jonathan considers looking up the twins--but then de-amplifies himself and goes back the quiet, but fulfilling life he should have had at the end of the series...

[> It's all about comeuppance -- Malandanza, 06:23:14 07/22/03 Tue

My vote was for Amy, since no one can curse like a witch. As much as I like Jonathan, Amy's Season Seven cameo clinched it for me. She's the only character who was able to demonstrate to Willow that there are sometimes consequences to her actions -- everyone else was all too eager to forgive and forget. And as far as punishment goes, Willow turning into Warren was pretty amusing, evil, but amusing. And the best part? The punishment was taken from Willow's own subconscious (and her curse may have been responsible for the skin eating demon as well).

Actually, that wasn't the best part -- the best part was seeing Kennedy get her comeuppance. We'll have to wait until the return of Faith to see something like that again. It was very amusing to see this arrogant, too bold brat who skipped out on the slayer retreat because magic isn't real and she'd rather be chasing Willow than learning about her destiny, the girl who is so self confident and self assured that she's known she was a lesbian since she was five, suddenly finds herself kissing a man when she pressures Willow into that kiss. Still not believing in magic, she tries to bully Amy after Willow/Warren storms out to go buy a gun -- and Amy mocks her, then zaps her across town.

Jonathan just doesn't have that kind of flair.

[> [> But he has great eyelashes...they gotta count for something...:):):):) -- Rufus, 17:07:34 07/22/03 Tue

Family Opinions -- Rosie, 07:30:25 07/22/03 Tue

How does your family feel about you being a fan of BtVS? Because I've just experienced the strangest reaction from my father. He feels that watching too much BUFFY, with its emphasis on the supernatural, will affect my behavior in a negative way. Mind you, this topic never came up during the 4 or 5 years that we watched CHARMED. He's a bigger fan of the LORD OF THE RING movies than I am and we're both major fans of the INDIANA JONES movies. Suffice to say, he's more of a fantasy fan than I am. I don't think it's a feminist issue, since he's a fan of CHARMED (whose portrayal of female empowerment is more negative than BUFFY). So, I'm trying to understand why he's so against BUFFY, especially since he's never seen a complete episode and has only seen brief clips of the show at least five times or less.

[> Hard to say -- ponygirl, 08:17:41 07/22/03 Tue

It may just be that your father has heard some bad press on Buffy and is basing his opinions on that. I like to think that BtVS is a far more subversive and adult work than the others you mention. LOTR I love but it is clearly within the realm of fantasy, its world is far removed from ours. Charmed and Indiana Jones have positioned themselves pretty definitely in the realm of entertainment. All of the above is true of BtVS as well but I think it goes a bit further, trying to challenge our ideas of the world. And it has affected my behaviour, but in what I see as a very positive way.

[> [> I think that might be at the heart of it... -- meritaten, 01:37:42 07/23/03 Wed

"All of the above is true of BtVS as well but I think it goes a bit further, trying to challenge our ideas of the world."

Well, my family (ie. mother) can't deal with any of the shows/stories that you mentioned, but Buffy would definitely be harder for them to accept. I think this is because it challenges us to think about how we perceive the world. Many people fear any sort of questioning or challenging of the accepted ideas.

[> It's a dilemma. -- AurraSing, 08:19:26 07/22/03 Tue

Luckily I'm too old to have to worry about that sort of censure from my family but I did some odd looks from my mother when she realised that I let my kids watch Buffy...not most of seasons 6 and 7 but they are big fans of the show irregardless.

Has your dad read some article somewhere that panned the show as leading the viewers down the path towards evil?? {eg} Or does he have objections towards same-sex couples?? Those are the two first things that spring to mind when a parent begins to object to their child watching BTVS. My kids are fully aware that the show is completely make-believe AND they thought Willow and Tara were great together but I've read a lot of stuff that objected to the series on the grounds of it showing Wicca or lesbians in a positive manner.

Some parents have objections to Harry Potter too which strikes me as even more absurd (even my husband is a fan!)....I'd suggest you sit down with your dad and ask him what about the show bothers him then try to deal with each subject point by point until you can come to some sort of agreement that BTVS will not rot your brain,make you start frequenting "magic" shops or cause you to start eyeing up your best girlfriend in a whole new light!

[> [> Re: It's a dilemma. -- Isty, 10:46:25 07/22/03 Tue

"Luckily I'm too old to have to worry about that sort of censure from my family but I did some odd looks from my mother when she realised that I let my kids watch Buffy...not most of seasons 6 and 7 but they are big fans of the show irregardless."

I too let my children (ages 7 and 12) watch many of the episodes. I try to keep the youngest away from the episodes with sex scenes and I won't let the oldest watch several of the season 6 episodes because I'm not ready to talk to her about the violent relationship that Buffy and Spike have.

I do think that Buffy has given my oldest and me plenty of opportunities to talk about different issues that have been presented and that's been nice. We've talked about the need to wait until you decide to have sex, making good decision, and the exposure she had to Willow and Tara's relationship was invaluable.

My mother and my sister, however, think I'm crazy. They don't understand my attraction to the show and they certainly object to my letting my children watch it. Neither has ever seen an episode and I've sometimes debated about showing them one, just so they could see that it has very wonderful points. The dilemma is . . . which episode? It would have to be a stand-alone.

[> [> [> I'd suggest 'Something Blue','Hush' or 'Fool for Love'.. -- AS, 11:00:49 07/22/03 Tue

I more or less made my mom and sis watch those three eps one time when they were visiting (small house,don't you know!)....Mom stopped giving me the look after she realised the show can be very entertaining and while my sis doesn't watch the show (no cable) she can at least look interested when her co-worker who is a rabid fan starts talking about the show. In fact since she even passes along little tidbits to share every once and while!

I too began pulling the plug on seasons 6 and 7 around here for much the same reasons you did-my kids are slightly younger and it was hard to try and think of a way I could talk about B/S in a manner they could understand and the misogeny inherent in Warren's actions was another factor for avoiding the show. And season 7 was just such a let down for me personally that I didn't even begin to offer it to the kids. They are content with the occasional re-run and think the show is still great fun.

On second thought,"Hush" might be a bit much but the other two are fun and well acted,play up the romance angle and contain little that can be objected to,other than poor Spike on his knees......

[> [> [> [> I'd suggest 'The Puppet Show'. -- Liam, 01:44:00 07/23/03 Wed

In terms of a once off episode to show, I would go right back to season 1 and suggest 'The Puppet Show', as the humour is lovely and the plot clever.

[> [> [> [> [> i'd second that suggestion -- anom, 11:14:45 07/23/03 Wed

Unless, of course, any of the people you're trying to win over is a school principal. But maybe you could explain that Snyder is just an exaggeration of a high school students perceptions of authority? Later, after they're hooked, you can show them Flutie.

[> What's in a name? -- Anneth, 09:39:50 07/22/03 Tue

It's entirely possible he's prejudiced because of the show's name - I know that's why my mother can't bring herself to watch it. For that matter, I wouldn't watch it for many years either - because the title is so incredibly stupid-sounding to the uninitiaited.

[> [> The original movie factor -- aka ms k, 22:07:26 07/23/03 Wed

I also did not watch for several years because a) the name sounded silly and b) I couldn't imagine a TV series based on a mediocre film being anything other than terrible.

If her father saw the original then he might reasonably expect the show to be an extension of the movie and has a rather dim view of it as a consequence.

[> Could be the Horror aspect -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:06:28 07/22/03 Tue

There are many people who are avid sci-fi/fantasy fans who dislike the horror genre on moral grounds. The reason is that, when they think of horror, they immediatly think of cheaply made slasher films where a bunch of hot women get naked, have sex, and are butchered by a masked killer. Many see horror movies as simply another word for snuff films, and so oppose them, claiming they corrupt people towards a sex/violence association.

Given that BtVS is often described as a Horror show, and the fact that it has the word "vampire" is in its title, someone who has seen very little of it (like your father) might very well put it in the same camp as slasher/exploitation movies.

Of course, this is all in theory.

[> Re: Family Opinions -- btvsk8, 15:46:11 07/23/03 Wed

Ah the mocking that is so often part of being a Buffy fan! I get it from both family and friends. I don't care, it only makes me more devoted.

I think the name has a lot to do with it. My dad thinks the show is ridiculous and thinks it is a children's show. My parents pours scorn on me.

He He! I can't wait to see the look on their faces when i tell them i have booked to go to a convention!

I find it all very amusing.

Some Random thoughts about S7 BtVS and S4 AtS -- Diana, 10:28:08 07/22/03 Tue

First some things about Buffy:

This season was really weak on plot and was pretty much pure symbolism. That is probably where most criticism of it comes from (besides that various characters did or did not get enough screen time or were or were not properly developed). What follows is an incredibly brief exploration of that that I hope will provoke discussion.

The First is an interesting villain that really was used more for what it symbolizes than what it can do. (Want to know what it symbolizes, go back to its first appearance, "Amends") The part that got most people salivating was in the beginning when it took the form of every big bad (well except Angelus) in reverse seasonal order. From that people were expecting all these big bads to show up and taunt the Scoobies. It did that to some degree, but not quite what people wanted.

Thing is that wasn't what that final scene was about. The premier sets the arc for the season. Compare the First taking the form of every previous big bad to what happens in "Chosen." Let's take that speech line for line and see how it compares to what Buffy figures out (ok, so this won't be brief)

Spike starts out saying, "The thing is...I had a speech. I learned it all. Oh, God. She won't understand, she won't understand."

What a wonderful statement about the Patriarchy. We learn our speeches. We try to learn it all. However, true understand escapes us. Also, Spike is saying that is he unable to communicate with Buffy. It is this communication that connects us, so Spike is saying that he is unable to connect with Buffy.

Warren/First responds, " Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything...useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. More than flesh..."

The transition here is great. Spike is talking about himself and the First turns it to be about "I'm beyond her understanding." Misogynist Warren makes it about sex. It is because she is a girl. The first separation, the primary separation the show focuses on is male/female. Deborah Tannen wrote a wonderful book called "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation." The show really does deal with the sexes inability to communicate.

But as with any Joss line, there is more to it than that. The transition is important. Spike is concerned about his relationship with Buffy. The reason the First gives for Buffy being unable to understand, for Spike being unable to connect with her is It, the First. I'M beyond her understanding. At this point, the First is correct.

Should Buffy understand the First, then Buffy will understand and be able to connect with Spike. What is the source of all evil? It is something Joss invites the viewer to ask ourselves without directly answering it. He answers it indirectly with what the solution this season is. Big bad is a symbolic representation of what is going on inside the characters. What was going on inside of Buffy this season?

Next comes Glory, "...more than blood. I'm... you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me. Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips, assuming their lips haven't been torn off. But not just yet. That's all right, though..."

Warren talks about being more than flesh, which is how our gender is represented. The transition from him to Glory is spine-tingling. When we see the First first morph like that this season, our brains start zapping ideas all over the place. From flesh/gender to blood. Too much has been said on the show about blood, but basically it is life itself. So the First is more than gender and more than life itself.

After Glory we get Adam. "....I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you, Number 17. You're right where you belong."

What is great is that no incarnation up to this point actually finishes their last sentence. Each bad merges into the other, showing that they really are all one. That is the key realization to beating it. Buffy realizes that she doesn't have to be alone. The First is treating Spike and Buffy as pawns. Buffy starts to see the Potentials not as an army, but as women they have empowered. They changed the world.

Next come the Mayor, "So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man, and I respect that, but..."

Adam was a conglomeration of demons, a man and machine. He was one of the most interesting symbolic creatures the Buffyverse has ever had. From this sort of unity, we get the Mayor talking about being "your own man" and respect. There is an important transition from Adam to Mayor in terms of big bads. Warren had Jonathan and Andrew, but he didn't care about them. Glory had her minions, but talk about not caring. Adam couldn't care. The Mayor did. He loved Faith. The big bads all cared about other creatures prior to Adam. This difference is illustrated by Adam actually finishing his sentence before going on to the rest of the incarnations. The tone of the bads change.

I love Dru. She's up next. "...you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark with me, singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them, right from the beginning. And that's where we're going..."

In order to get what The First is saying, you have to realize what It symbolized. Dru's words are just delicious. As she is saying that he will always be hers, what she is really saying is he will always be alone. It is such a wonderful turn of words. Her words echo what Spike said to Buffy in "Dead Things."

Now for back to the beginning. The Master tells him, "...right back to the beginning. Not the Bang... not the Word... the true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. Trying to do what's right, just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong..."

So what is the true beginning? "Chosen" showed us that.

Time for more spine tingling as we have one last incarnation, Buffy herself. " ...it's about power."

Thus we were taken through each season represented by each Big Bad and shown what was it that Buffy was dealing with. The source of that evil is what S7 was all about. It's about power. That attitude has caused much suffering on both shows.

Now contrast that with what we learned each season:

6: Warren's misogyny tries to take out Buffy and instead takes out the feminine in the form of Tara. This causes Willow to flip out and try to take control/lose her feminine. The season's solution is the reunification of male/female with Willow and Xander at the end. The separation is healed.

5. Glory's self-centeredness is ready to destroy the world in order that she can get what she wants. The solution is Buffy realizes that Dawn is her and she gives up her life for her. The separation is healed.

4. Adam unifies the demons to fight the already unified humans in order to destroy both groups to get parts for his super creatures. The solution is the conjoining spell. Talk about no separation.

3. The Mayor is going to Ascend. The solution is the entire senior class works together. No more separation.

2. Angelus doesn't want to love Buffy, so he's going to suck the world into hell in order to be free. The solution is that Willow resouls Angel, but Buffy still has to kill him. This reaffirms Buffy's connection to humanity. She chooses the world over Angel.

This is shown with Dru's words because it is this attitude that we will always be together that separates us from others. By killing Angel, Buffy started to heal this separation. Buffy cannot be with Angel until she knows how to keep it in perspective. She can't get too invested in it.

1. The Master wants to rule the world. Buffy doesn't want to be Slayer. She stops him and becomes stronger. She really starts to learn about herself. This starts the process that will lead to the final solution in "Chosen."

The Master really nails Spike here. The key is "just like her." Spike is still doing things because of Buffy. When Spike finally feels his soul, he manages to heal the separation that has plagued him his entire existence. It is this lack of soul that separates him from others.

Everything the First is saying is about separation. It finally taunts Buffy with her being alone. How she solves things is to make it so she isn't alone. She always took being alone as a given. Now she realizes, she understands, that she doesn't have to be. THAT is what the First was used for. The plot behind it was pretty lame. The symbolism is key to understanding Buffy. The very intro to the show was shown to be the ultimate misdirect.

That is one thing. I'm going to post this and hopefully it will generate something. I have more things to add later.

[> Wood -- Diana, 10:38:48 07/22/03 Tue

Principal Wood. Here we have a secondary character that represents nothing going on in Buffy. He really moved the plot along, but I would expect more from any character from ME. Then it hit me, his name: Wood. We have another character named after a form of wood, Willow. Principal Wood is Faith's Willow. Willow was the character that made me fall in love with Buffy. When Buffy started to feel for Willow at the water fountain, I loved Buffy. When Buffy befriended Willow and tried to bring her out of her shell, I loved Buffy. Willow is the reason I love Buffy and will wait for her to recover from any stumbles she has.

Wood does the same thing with Faith. Wood is the one that gets Faith's heart going again. It is the scenes with Wood that Faith's heart starts to really show. She tells Wood about her favorite bruise. She opens up to Wood about the Mayor. She worries when she thinks that Wood is dead. When Faith gets the spin-off, I wouldn't be surprised if Wood goes with her.

He was wonderfully used this season as a vehicle to Spike's story and to get us to the origins of the Slayer. He gave Buffy a job which got her into the high school. He helped show Buffy moving on (got to play rebound guy), which was crucial before she could go back to anything with new Spike. People may not like him personally, though I do. He was definitely multi-tasked this season and is crucial to the plot.

So here is my defense of this well used character.

[> [> Kennedy and Wood... -- BMF, 21:23:22 07/22/03 Tue

would seem, then, to have similar roles. Kennedy is almost as unimportant a character to develop as Wood, and is equally as off-putting, as best as I can tell, to most fans. From the perspective presented above, however, she appears to take on much more importance.

Kennedy has nothing to do with Buffy and everything to do with Willow. She is an active force in Willow's life that constantly pushes her to move on and escape her insecurities and her violence. It is in Kennedy's scenes that Willow has to confront her love for Tara, her dark acts, and the awesome power she now holds. She gives Willow a model of confidence and strength combined with compassion. In a sense, she combines the best of Oz and Tara to give Willow the relationship she really needs, one that allows her to self-actualize and grow.

The final scene with Willow and Kennedy together, casting the spell to activate all the SiT's, says everything that needs to be said about their relationship: "You're a Slayer" and "You're a goddess" come out affirmations of mutual respect and admiration. Without Kennedy's constant stalwart support there is no way Willow could have brought herself to do that spell. Kennedy is Willow's redemptor. If Willow ever gets a spin-off (I've seen some credible rumors), I have to hope Kennedy is with her. Like Wood and Faith, this is a relationship worth developing.

[> [> [> very nicely and succinctly put about season 7's most unfairly abused character -- Dochawk, 23:03:12 07/22/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Ditto -- Sophist, 08:23:01 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Ditto -- DEN, 12:19:17 07/23/03 Wed

May I make it three on Kennedy's importance to Willow?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sure -- Three's Company. Doc's President. Flip ya for Treasurer. -- Sophist, 12:44:16 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> Kennedy is a betrayal and I will go into her later today -- Diana, 05:02:34 07/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Kennedy and Wood... -- heywhynot, 05:20:16 07/23/03 Wed

Funny just how much character development Willow actually got in season 7 as you mention through her interactions with Kennedy. Faith as well through interacting with the SiTs, Buffy and Wood as you also mention. The other main non-title characters got a good amount of character development in season 7.

Giles lost the organization that has defined him, turned him from the Ripper into the man whom many of us viewers respected & adored for many seasons on Buffy. In the end he came out stronger, changed. His character developed beyond that. At the sametime he had to deal with the change in his relationship with Buffy as all fathers/daughters must do when the daughter grows up.

Dawn went from the whinning kid of season 6 to a mature young woman, who was more than willing to let someone else take centerstage while still doing all she could to help out.

Xander we saw was already mature in alot of ways save in his dealing with Anya & his demons of abuse. Over the course of the season he and Anya ended their immature antics & accepted that they loved eachother but were not getting married. I am glad Xander did not fully resolve his issues with abuse because in truth they never will go away. They will always be there. Some demons you can't slay but have to learn to live with and channel into positive works.

[> [> [> Puts my finger on the problem for many people -- KdS, 06:03:33 07/23/03 Wed

Why couldn't one of the established characters have done all this good stuff?

[> [> [> [> Like say... XANDER -- Diana, 06:18:04 07/23/03 Wed

Oh, wait. I know the answer to that one. Willow is gay. She has to be gay. They can't make her ungay or even bi. The backlash when they killed Tara would seem like nothing if Willow was anything but homosexual.

If there sounds like there is a bit of anger there, there is. The way people turned on the show when it treated Tara like they would any other character, regardless of sexuality, really irks me.

[> [> [> [> One solution (a predictable TCH solution) -- Tchaikovsky, 07:19:55 07/23/03 Wed

would have been to use good ole Dawn. In 'Real Me', possibly the greatest of Fury's regular staff episodes, Dawn and Willow is set up as a lovely little relationship, and then somewhat overlooked. It's replayed to great effect in 'Wrecked', whatever one's opinion of the rest of the episode is. In 'Sleeper', Dawn tells Willow what happens. The vibe of these two together, one coming back from evil, the other flowering into a woman, would have been marvellous, I think. I'm not suggesting this as a 'shippy thing. Or at least I wasn't when I started this post.

That post ended up in a different place from where it started


[> [> [> [> And now, #322 in the continuing series: 'But Joss said....' -- cjl, 07:44:29 07/23/03 Wed

But Joss said he didn't want Willow to be the same old "gay celibate" you see on TV all the time--you know, he looks gay, sounds gay, he's out and he's proud, and yet he never seems to get any, while the heterosexuals on the screen are doing it like rabbits. (Sorry, Anya.)

Once he knew Amber Benson wasn't coming back for S7, Joss said he had to switch the story to Willow "moving on" with her life--and since he was determined not to sweep Willow's lesbianism under the shag carpeting, that meant "new girlfriend." Which meant Kennedy.

The problem with this admirable attitude was that with space for character development at a premium in the latter two-thirds of S7 and long-time regulars dying for proper plotlines, Kennedy's role seemed disproportionately large for a new character. Joss could have done just as well (if not better) exploring the non-sexual and long-standing bonds between Willow and Xander, Willow and Anya, Willow and Buffy, Willow and Spike...okay, you get the idea.

But that's not where his head was at.

[> [> [> [> [> Question -- sdev, 21:25:32 07/23/03 Wed

"But Joss said he didn't want Willow to be the same old "gay celibate" you see on TV all the time--you know, he looks gay, sounds gay, he's out and he's proud, and yet he never seems to get any, while the heterosexuals on the screen are doing it like rabbits. (Sorry, Anya.)"

How do you explain that Willow over the series had more sex than any other character (Faith a possible exception but the viewer didn't get to see it)?

[> [> [> [> [> [> What makes you think she had more sex? -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:41:05 07/23/03 Wed

Willow spent roughly five months in a sexual relationship with Oz, roughly two years with Tara plus one day of frequent sex afterwards, and (to our knowledge) she and Kennedy only had sex once during the actual course of the show.

Contrast that to the Anya/Xander relationship. That lasted from "Harsh Light of Day" to "Hell's Bells", roughly two and a half years, plus two one-nighters later. Assuming that while in these relationships the character's averaged the same sex/time ratio, both Xander and Anya have clearly had more sex than Willow.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> clarification -- sdev, 23:09:44 07/23/03 Wed

Sex seen on screen. How much Anya/Xander sex was on screen?

Also, Willow was always in a relationship since Oz in high school. In contrast, Xander had a brief non-sexual relationship with Cordelia, then nothing, and then Anya, then nothing. Buffy had Angel-one night, Parker-one night, Riley-not sure, maybe 6-8 months, Spike-not sure-maybe 3 months, then nothing. Giles is the saddest of all. One can only hope/imagine England was better to him than the old US of A.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: clarification -- heywhynot, 06:31:16 07/24/03 Thu

Xander also had his one-nighter with Faith during high school then Faith's attempted rape upon him later (weeks or months later).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: clarification -- sdev, 09:09:57 07/24/03 Thu

I accept the Faith one-nighter-actually Xander's first sexual experience, but refuse to count the AR- violence not sex and thankfully not consummated.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> By that standard, Buffy is the undisputed champion -- Sophist, 08:31:51 07/24/03 Thu

It's not clear what "shown" means in the context of television. Here's my rough, off the top of my head count:

Willow 5 (GD 1, GD 2, OMWF, SR, Touched). Plus it was pretty strongly implied, though not shown, in NMR.

Buffy: 10 (Surprise, HLOD, The I in Team, WTWTA, ITW, Smashed, Gone, DMP, DT, AYW). I think I've missed one or 2 Riley eps, and WTWTA should count for, well, many.

Faith: 3 (The Zeppo, WAY, Touched).

Xander: 4 (HLOD, Forever, Storyteller, Touched). Plus it was strongly implied in many other episodes, such as Hush. Just from the dialogue (WTWTA, TYF), we're led to believe Xander and Anya were doin' it every night.

Giles: 3 (Band Candy twice, Hush). Plus it was pretty strongly implied in The Freshman.

Looks to me like we saw Willow about the same as the other supporting characters, but that we were told much less about her than we were about Xander. Of the three core SG members, Willow seems to have gotten the least.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> more clarification and questions -- sdev, 09:38:44 07/24/03 Thu

IMO: Shown=number of times, duration of scene and graphic nature. Also, as I mentioned Willow seemed to have more continuity of love relationships than anyone else.

I think by those standards Willow comes out ahead, but I am going by gut feeling. And you make a well-substantiated point so I may be getting into trouble here. My problem relates to the earlier point/quote from JW about gay sex in cjl's post:

"But Joss said he didn't want Willow to be the same old "gay celibate" you see on TV all the time--you know, he looks gay, sounds gay, he's out and he's proud, and yet he never seems to get any, while the heterosexuals on the screen are doing it like rabbits. (Sorry, Anya.)"

I am not aware of this stereotype. Is this true to other people's knowledge? Did JW use the male pronoun? Would leaving Willow relationshipless and celibate at this point, given the fact that celibacy seems to have been the norm in Casa Summers, and given her past sexual history, have made her part of this stereotype? Didn't other characters- Buffy, Xander and Giles come off as much more celibate and alone?

I am left with these unresolved questions from the way Willow was treated and that quote. In fact, if anything the quote confuses me more.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ouch. Touchy subject. -- Sophist, 10:33:58 07/24/03 Thu

There was considerable discussion of this and related topics after SR first aired. I'll try to respond neutrally, but I'm not sure that's possible.

In general, I agree with you that Willow's relationships were more stable and long-lasting than others. We did, however, see and, especially, hear much more about sex involving Buffy and Xander than we did with Willow.

In part, this seems to be the result of her sexual orientation. That is, the WB apparently (I'm going by writers' comments) censored depictions of W/T. They were not even allowed to kiss, except in the utterly non-romantic context of The Body. Even this was a very big deal -- the number of lesbian kisses on primetime network TV can probably be counted on one hand.

The relative absence of lesbian relationships on TV makes it hard to respond to JW's statement. I certainly don't know how often gays appear on TV relative to having sexual relationships. He may have been influenced by his experience with the WB. It is true that BtVS garnered considerable praise and support in gay media for its portrayal of a long-term, non-exploitive gay relationship. It may even have been a first (and only). This suggests he is correct.

Another item of evidence in his support is the controversial issue of the "dead lesbian" stereotype. By this is meant that Hollywood, including TV, tends to portray gay sex as "wrong". They do this by having the "seducing" gay character punished for gay sex by dying. Some people have questioned the existence of this stereotype, but if you accept that it exists (I do), then that also would support the claim that sympathetic gay characters tend not to have sex.

The bulk of the W/T relationship took place while BtVS was on the WB. Network censorship prevented the writers from depicting the W/T relationship in the same way they did X/A and B/R. This, to me, explains most of disparity.

On UPN, the standards were clearly different. However, the plot during S6 meant that W/T were apart for much of the season (TR to SR). Same with W/K in S7. These plot lines seem sufficient to explain the rest of the disparity.

One last point. I don't know that I'd characterize celibacy as the "norm" in Casa Summers. Leaving out Dawn, Joyce was too peripheral a character to be shown having much sex. Buffy's relationships were irregular, but we certainly saw plenty of sex -- more than Xander and Willow combined -- when she was in them. X/A was portrayed as highly sexual. Would it have been conspicuous in S7 had Willow been celibate? Probably not. But I can also see JW's point.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Does 'touchy' mean don't touch? -- sdev, 13:49:51 07/24/03 Thu

Honestly speaking, I am getting very nervous about this discussion especially in light of what you call a very touchy subject. I do not want to be perceived as Trollish although I do hold some controversial opinions. I also do not wish to inflame an already sensitive Board. If you are subtlely suggesting I desist, please spell it out. I am not good at subtle.

Not touchy or all about Touched--I meant celibacy in Casa Summers in Season 7. The notable exception being the one night everyone was getting it done, Touched.

Also I hope not touchy, but you brought up an interesting point, Joyce. I think that may be the true, easily recognizable sterotype- middle-aged divorced woman with no love relationship or sex life. Can this really be dismissed as just by virtue of her peripheral role? She has one relationship with a robot, Ted, and one date which ends in her death. The only time she really got to let go was the age reversal in Band Candy (I loved that ep by the way)and that was because she was not herself but acting under the influence.

As to our Willow discussion I will defer and await your response.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Didn't mean to discourage you. -- Sophist, 16:36:53 07/24/03 Thu

We had some heated debates about W/T and stereotypes, but it has been awhile. I think it's safe now. Hey, it's less controversial than Spike.

I'm happy to discuss it with you.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ok not discouraged -- sdev, 17:14:01 07/24/03 Thu

I still feel there is not enough here to justify JW's need to have Willow in a new relationship just to avoid some highly inferential, possible gay stereotype, which I am unaware of, although I defer to others if they disagree as to the existence of this particular stereotype. I would be more inclined to agree about the presence of this stereotype in male gay relationships on the screen, especially as applied to actual sexual portrayal. So I am still left wondering at the motives for Willow/Kennedy. It seems more people disliked it than thought it was appropriate. And in terms of depiction of gay relationships, did it portray Willow as insensitive and inadequately grieving over the death of a loved one, Tara?

Given the reason for Willow's being alone, she had the least reason for moving on to the next relationship. Through no fault of her own Tara died. At the time Tara died they had reconciled. She was naturally mourning which takes time. It did not serve her character development to put her in a new relationship because she was not having relationship problems the way Xander and Buffy were. Xander either moving on or coming to some better reconciliation with Anya would have shown development. Instead he was frozen in time.

Also the nature of w

I still wonder about the motivation here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I thought BMF stated Kennedy's role pretty well above. -- Sophist, 18:49:09 07/24/03 Thu

some highly inferential, possible gay stereotype, which I am unaware of

Stereotypes usually are invisible to most of us precisely because they seem "natural". We often don't notice them because they form an unconscious part of our world view. Not saying that's the case with you, just pointing out that unawareness of a stereotype is not really evidence against it.

I agree with you about Xander.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's a good point. Maybe they are noticed by those that don't see them as 'natural'. -- WickedBuffy, 17:17:23 07/27/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly. At least, they can reveal to us the possibility. -- Sophist, 21:39:26 07/27/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> lol! It sounds like Joyce was the one practically living the that stereotype instead! -- WickedBuffy, 17:14:22 07/27/03 Sun

I like the irony of situations.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The 'stereotype' -- KdS, 02:59:40 07/25/03 Fri

"But Joss said he didn't want Willow to be the same old "gay celibate" you see on TV all the time--you know, he looks gay, sounds gay, he's out and he's proud, and yet he never seems to get any, while the heterosexuals on the screen are doing it like rabbits. (Sorry, Anya.)"

I am not aware of this stereotype.

Oh, it's very common in recent romantic comedies. The gay confidant of the heroine who plays Cupid to straight couples but never gets any himself. Rupert Everett does it a lot. If Lorne weren't green he'd be a prime example.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think it's an old stereotype that's finally being attended to thanks to Joss, HBO & others. -- WickedBuffy (very slowly), 09:58:03 07/25/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think it's an old stereotype that's finally being attended to thanks to Joss, HBO & others. -- sdev, 14:41:04 07/25/03 Fri

I was thinking the same thing.

Also I never really watched Friends but wasn't there a lesbian couple, Ross's ex wife, who left him for a lesbian relationship. Was that shown in any kind of sexualized way?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think they did a nice job. -- WickedBuffy, 15:01:43 07/25/03 Fri

Ayup, you're right, Ross's ex-wife. That's a good example, too.

I felt they portrayed everything fairly well. No subtle stereotypes. And it was Ross who was probably the more celibate of three. (Ross, ex-wife and partner)

I'm not a rabid Friends fan, but sometimes the reruns seem to be on every channel. Umm, so I was forced to watch. :>

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: clarification -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:47:50 07/24/03 Thu

First off, while Willow and Oz were in a relationship for a long time, they didn't actually have sex until "Graduation Day", the finale of Season 3. They then broke up in "Wild at Heart" early in Season 4. If we estimate the length of the summer break at 3 months, and figure about two months passed from "The Freshman" to "Wild at Heart", and assume that Willow and Oz were having sex regularly during that time period, we have about five months of sex for Willow.

After Willow and Oz broke up, she soon met Tara, and Joss has confirmed that the spell they did in "Who Are You?" was meant to be their first time. So we then must count from "Who Are You" to their breakup in "Tabula Rasa". Since "Who Are You" was the 16th ep of Season 4, and "Tabula Rasa" was the 8th ep of Season 6, assuming a two year gap between the two episodes seems generous.

After the breakup in "Tabula Rasa", Willow had one day of sex with Tara in "Seeing Red" and one night with Kennedy in "Touched" ("Touched" was their first time together, and, given their level of business, they don't seem to have had time enough to do it again before the end of the series).

So, altogether, Willow has had 2 years, 5 months, and 2 days of a sexual relationship (and that's with very liberal estimating for the W/T ship).

Now, let's take a look at Anya and Xander. They first had sex in "Harsh Light of Day" and were in a relationship continuously from that point until "Hell's Bells". Now, HLoD was the third ep of Season Four, and "Hell's Bells" was the 16th ep of Season Six. Using a conservative estimate, Anya and Xander had to be together for at least two and a half years, plus two days where they had sex afterwards (not to mention Anya's night with Spike and Xander's one night with Faith).

So, even if you stack your estimations in favor of Willow, Anya and Xander still come out ahead by one month and one night. If I were to estimate the time between "Who Are You?" and "Tabula Rasa" less liberally, I'd probably come to about 1 year and roughly 9 months that Willow and Tara had sex, which gives Anya and Xander another 3 months lead. And this isn't even factoring in that, at least in Season 4, it was implied Xander and Anya were having sex almost every night, which makes one think they might have a different sex/time ration than other couples.

I also don't see how you could count Willow as having more sex scenes, given the numerous Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Riley scenes. Perhaps it has more to do with how the scenes stick out in your mind than the actual number of them?

Also, on this I will agree: Willow is the character who has spent the most time in relationships. She had a little less than two years with Oz, roughly two years with Tara, and about 3-6 months with Kennedy. If you don't specify "sexual" relationships, Willow comes out on top. The Xander/Anya relationship pulls into the lead, though, because they were having sex throughout the entirety of their relationship (not counting their one date in "The Prom").

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We all know that imaginary Xander is quite the machine -- Diana, 12:15:19 07/24/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: clarification -- sdev, 13:37:19 07/24/03 Thu

"Perhaps it has more to do with how the scenes stick out in your mind than the actual number of them?"

Yes, I'm sure that is true. That relates to the other two factors I mentioned- length of scene and graphic portrayal.

At any rate given your calculations, which I accept for now (although 2 months till Wild At Heart seems short), Willow and Xander are close (generous interp=1 month)in this peculiar horse race. Also how many B/R scenes do you figure? I did not think there were many. Interesting question- do we count Faith/Riley?

[> [> [> [> [> Willow's greatest difficulty was her relationships. -- Arethusa, 19:46:28 07/24/03 Thu

She could handle friendships well, but her more intimate relationships were marred by her deep fear of not being worthy of love. Who would want plain old Willow? So it's fitting that she was finally able to experience the joys and pains of a relationship without running away from pain. After the trauma of Tara's death, only another lover could show how she was learning to accept love.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I like how you put that. I always felt Willow was most confused by Buffy. -- WB, 21:24:35 07/28/03 Mon

Relationshipwise, it seemed Willow had a difficult time"getting" Buffy. They could easily chat in slang, shop, watch bad movies - that kind of stuff. But of all the characters, it seemed that understanding Buffy on a deep level was always challenging Willow.

[> [> [> [> Because None Of the Existing Characters Could, They Had Their Own Issues -- heywhynot, 10:43:42 07/23/03 Wed

Lets rundown the characters in Season 7 that rolled over from previous seasons:

Buffy: dealing with being alone, responsible for all the SiTs, raising Dawn, trying to save the world against the First Evil, dealing with being depressed for a year

Spike: dealing with having a soul, being the butt-monkey of the First

Giles: dealing with the council being destroyed and the fact his "daughter" was no longer a child but now an adult

Willow: dealing with the fact she went off the deep end, killing a person, almost destroying the world, injuring her friends, and most importantly loosing the woman she loved that was the center of her world

Dawn: trying to figure out her place in the world, dealing with being a teenager, sister to a Super-hero who for a year or so wished she was still dead, the key, yet just being a human surrounded by vampires, slayers, witches, etc.

Anya: dealing with the pain of Xander leaving her at the altar, the fact she returned to being a vengance demon and then a human once more

Xander: dealing with his inner demons, his relationship with Anya.

Faith: dealing with every parental figure in her life either betraying her or ending up dead, she killed, fought on the side of evil, not being Buffy, not mention almost being killed herself recently,

As you can see there is a reason why outsiders had to play a role in the character development. Who was there for Willow to form a romantic relationship with? Willow needed someone who was sure of his/herself, providing the support for Willow. None of the SG could provide that. Xander at the start of season 7 was sure in lots of ways but not in a romantic relationship & Willow needed a romantic relationship to help her move past Tara's death. Not only that Xander and Willow moved beyond the school-yard attraction to being deep friends & a romantic relationship was out of the cards. Anya was still wrapped up in her love for Xander (as he was for her). Dawn was no way mature enough to help Willow. A new character was the only choice.

For Faith, she needed someone who could earn her respect & be her confidant, lover. Someone who could still stand up to her. Lets face it there was too much baggage with the SG for any of them to do that. Xander was her sex toy, her and Buffy needed to learn to respect and trust one another, Spike was busy with Buffy.

Wood and Kennedy were needed. Besides most friendships of people in their 20s are dynamic. People come in and out of the group. Especially as romantic partners for the core group members.

[> [> [> Camelot -- fresne, 12:00:00 07/23/03 Wed

Given the circumstances, I'd say Kennedy's development was very important. The problem for me with Kennedy is that I felt like the character was not developed enough.

You see, until Chosen, I didn't couldn't see the compassion or for that matter, the ability to laugh at herself. My impression of Kennedy, until Chosen (and I want to emphasize, it took one sentence to change my mind), was that she was a strong confident young woman who was used to being the center of attention. Powerful. Rich. In control.

Given Willow's lack of sexual confidence, her recent loss, her fear and the real benefits in terms of the power structure in that frail little house, the relationship felt sexually manipulative. Her interactions with Willow, Buffy/Faith and with other Potentials reinforced that feeling. She went from being a positive, I want Willow to get some lovin' as much as the next character, poor wounded weeping, to a negative.

It wasn't until that one scene in Chosen that I saw that Kennedy wasn't like that at all. However, by that time, I'd already spent a season slowly sinking into dislike. A single scene with Giles (where are her parents?), or Dawn (I still want to write that story, but I'm a bit busy now), or Anya (What's it like to be a Scooby other?) would have gone a long ways towards developing Kennedy.

After all, she has one of the most evocative names possible in an American Camelot dream context. Confidence and power and beautiful golden dreaming. A Kennedy helping Willow turn from weeping to sunlight seeking. Implicit with that name both the dream and loss of it. Both the Bay of Pigs and the Missile Crisis. Doing the other thing. Space, the Final Frontier. Quoting long dust Romans, "Ask not what your country can do for you..." The implicit sacrifice of being Potential. A Slayer. Balanced by that wonderful sharing of different forms of power. You're a Slayer. You're a goddess. Nifty.

So, yeah, development for all.

[> [> [> [> Completely agreed. -- Rob, 12:33:40 07/23/03 Wed

I also completely changed my opinion of Kennedy in "Chosen," and wish that we could have seen more of this the entire season, because I honestly don't think I would have been so anti-Kennedy had this happened. I am not predisposed to disliking "Buffy" characters. This is the first time this ever happened to me, which suggests to me that she was not handled correctly...until "Chosen," which improved the final episode for me (I don't want to be irritated by someone I don't like on the last episode ever! and thank Joss, I wasn't).


[> [> [> [> Re: Camelot -- Yellow Bear, 13:06:30 07/23/03 Wed

I think about BTVS a lot (probably too much) and not for a moment did I think of Kennedy as being sexually manipulative. I find that quite surprising, and this is not the first time I heard it. I really enjoyed what the character brought to the show from the beginning. I needed Willow to emerge from her coccon of widowhood and only a new character (or Tara) could have done that. A character who had no history with Willow, who could come in and she her strength & heart but had no connection with her past actions. Yes, Kennedy did move into the Scooby inner circle rathe quickly but she is the oldest potential with the most time in Scooby central and also exhibited extraordinary bravery & smarts in KIM (much as Tara did in Who Are You). I always expected Willow's new love interest would be disliked by a large segment of the fan base but I thought she might get a little more love.

Oh, loved the section of your post dealing with naming. Terrific.

[> [> [> [> [> Eau de Camelot -- fresne, 09:13:45 07/24/03 Thu

I think it's a matter of perspective. Quite possibly we all think about the ME-verse way too much. Hmmm...nah.

I liked Kennedy when she came on. I just lost it somewhere along the way.

Some how, possibly since I compulsively pick at things, my perspective gradually transformed from this is a nice fun relationship, where everyone ends up friends (which the Buffy crew aren't really good at) to linking little dots that formed a picture I didn't much like. I'm fairly convinced that that's not what ME was going for, but a number of the plot decisions that they made trailed clues like fallen scarves. If I got a dance of a 1000 veils and not an unfortunate scarf explosion, well, that's perspective.

I'm trying to avoid actually listing why I had that impression, because I'm with Rob that I'm just so happy that Joss gave me the meager crumb that I needed to like the character in the end.

Because the success of Chosen is largely contingent on wanting those whiny (cabernety?), annoying, anonymous, stacked like grapes for the crush girls to be empowered.

Although, that may be the point. Not just empowering your friends, but everyone. Everyone a hero. Everyone fermented to a fine vintage. Cabernet and Chardonnay and even Zinfandel of the white.

It just works better if Vi all of a sudden becomes so very cool and Kennedy laughs at her own failings. Or in terms of my metaphor, if it weren't way too early in the morning to be thinking about wine.

[> [> [> Well said. -- Arethusa, 19:29:55 07/24/03 Thu

[> For the record, these aren't all *my* thoughts...a couple of them Di came up with on her own ;- ) -- Random, 10:39:58 07/22/03 Tue

[> Initial reply -- Anneth, 10:56:50 07/22/03 Tue

I'll get to other points when I can, but this sentence struck me:

From Lessons, FEWarren to Crazy!Spike:Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything...useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. More than flesh...

How interesting that the metaphore Buffy will finally chose to explain that she's still growing up is "cookie dough" - a baked good. Buffy's great realization in Chosen is that she's still baking, still unformed. In this sentence alone, the FE betrays its two great underestimations of Buffy's character - the fact that she derives power from her sex and gender, and the elasticity of her youth. Turns out, to the FE's detriment, that girls are acutally quite powerful enough to defeat it, at least temporarily. And once Buffy stops trying to fight in the traditional manner (the lone gunfighter angle: Buffy vs. Ubie, with a crowd of SiT spectators, for example); once she realizes that she doesn't have to do things in any set way, (both when it comes to fighting and when it comes to her relationships), she becomes unstoppable. Caleb can hardly touch her while her friends, Dawn, Spike, and the SiTs, finally can.

Mmm, sorry this is so tangential to your post, Di.

[> [> Thanks for adding that -- Diana, 11:07:06 07/22/03 Tue

So you think the horrible cookie metaphor was an idea when the season started? Interesting.

Cheesecake is still better than cookies though :-)

[> [> [> The 'baking' thingee may have been unintentional... but that Joss is a crafty one. -- Anneth, 11:32:27 07/22/03 Tue

Acutally, I wouldn't put it past him at all to have thought up the cookie metaphore years ago, and be excited enough about it to base an entire season around it!

[> [> [> [> Re: The 'baking' thingee may have been unintentional... OR MAYBE NOT -- Walking Turtle, 12:41:00 07/23/03 Wed

I can't remember where it was posted. But I recall at the before/beginning the season something about Joss writting both the 1st and last eposides of season 7 at the same time.

Regardless ... This analysis of 1st and last together is great!!!!!

[> [> Ooh! That's great, anneth. And great post from you too, di! -- Rob, 11:07:35 07/22/03 Tue

So the answer was really there all along.


[> [> [> Always is. The entire season is encapsulated in the premier -- Diana, 11:14:24 07/22/03 Tue

[> Angel as Frat Boy -- Diana, 16:46:28 07/22/03 Tue

Shadowkat wrote earlier that she doesn't like Fury's Angelus because he is just a big frat boy. Pretty good description of Angelus to me. Angelus isn't Angel. He isn't just Angel without a soul. When the soul goes, so does a lot of stuff that Angel built up because of that soul. It's like say you had a broken arm. That arm is put in a cast. If that arm should get cut off, the cast will go with it. Fury's Angelus really strips Angel down.

Any human being starts with a human heart. It is this that makes it so that no human is irredeemable. This human heart causes us to be hurt. When we see others in pain, it hurts us. When we hurt others, it hurts us. When we help others, it gives us warm fuzzies. It is also known as the conscience or soul.

That isn't all there is to being human. As Wesley tells Cordelia in S1, it is our desires that make us human. These desires often override and bury the heart. What makes Buffy and Angel the champions they are, IMO, is that no matter how much they try to bury their hearts, they can't completely and they have to act eventually.

Willow refers to Parker as "Id boy." Parker is Buffy's rebound from Angel and is a modern Liam. It is very easy to dismiss someone as a slave to their desires, but lets see what that did to Liam. This transition was shown wonderfully by Joss Whedon himself in "Spin the Bottle" in which we get to see a 17 year old Liam on the cusp of manhood.

As the spell kicks in, we see a young Liam who is rather self-centered. When his accent is gone, he separates himself from the group and repeats his name over and over again. Losing his accent shows how out of place he was in his own culture. His predilection for women and drink, his avoidance of a hard day's labor, things that are considered sinning are out of place in 18th century Catholic Ireland.

A very young Liam wouldn't want to do these things. He would try very hard to be good. He calls everyone mad for the way they dress and talk. He spouts the party line when it come to English occupation of Ireland. He wants to be Irish. When they need an explanation, he falls back on the Church and even believes that his father was right. "My father said I was a sinner, that I'd come to a bad end. Now I've come to hell." Young Liam would have tried to avoid this fate.

But the lure of women and drink was just too great. Just as in STB, Angel cannot help that he is a vampire, young Liam is irresistible drawn to things that are considered bad. As he tells Cordelia, "I tell ya, I get through this, I'm gonna have a great cup of ale-I don't care what father says it does to you." Angel finds out he is a vampire and his first reaction is disbelief and then fear. Young Liam must have felt the same way about his own inner demons. "I'm a vampire. They're going to kill me," could easily translate to a young Liam thinking "I'm a sinner. God will send me to Hell." That is the first stage in the deterioration of Liam.

Angel tries to escape, but can't run from the demons outside. They are everywhere. I wonder what measures young Liam took to try and remain good. They were more horrifying than the sin to him. Then Angel tries to hide that he is vampire. When we see Liam in "The Prodigal" he waits until his father is away at Church before he tries to corrupt their one servant. Just like the gang finds out that Angel is the vampire, Liam's dad discovers what he is.

Wesley gives his theory and Angel, in order to protect himself, says "The English is stupid." Angel knows that Wesley's theory is right, but he also knows that he cannot change what he is. He tries to hide that he is a vampire and it works for a while, just like I'm sure that young Liam managed to hide his own demons for a while. Then Lorne wakes up and gives the game away. Angel can no longer hide from who he is.

He tells the people that he doesn't want to hurt anyone. I'm sure that young Liam didn't want to, either. He still had his human heart and it wasn't that buried yet. Then people start to attack him, so damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, he's going to go with things. At this point, Liam's world view starts to change in order to justify his existence. He finds out that being a vampire isn't all bad, just as he finds out that he finds "some forms of corruption are more pleasant."

Then he starts to attack those that would call him bad. Girls that once liked good Liam are probably a bit weary of Scoundrel Liam, just like Cordy now fears Angel. Angel didn't want to hurt anyone earlier, but when Connor starts to physically attack him, "Think I'm a bit tired of being bullied." This lines up with "The Prodigal" when Liam leaves home. In STB Angel has gone from believing his father when the spell first kicks in to calling him "a self-righteous bastard."

For those who think that Angel is all about proving himself, he tells Connor "Truth to tell, I'm not much for fighting. I'd rather be satisfying my sinful urges with the Chase girl." Id-boy. That is the Liam that is vamped. "Spin the Bottle" takes us to the point where Liam was when he got vamped. Liam likes to drink and he likes the bosom and he wants to see the world. Like Buffy, he really just wants to be left alone to do what he wants. Id boy.

What is built on top of this is to deal with the reality of Id boy. It is in that first stage of deterioration, when young Liam first learns how strong the lure of sin is, that his inferiority complex starts. Even before his father knows that he is a sinner, Liam knows. He has impure thoughts before he ever acts on them. These thoughts conflict with the image of what a good man is supposed to be that is taught to him. In STB, this is shown when Angel first vamps out. He doesn't bite Cordy. He just wants to. This image of himself as a demon is what is the root of his problem. He sees himself that way because he is Id boy.

As a human, Liam builds up a world view that his father refers to as "Madness." All Liam's dad wanted to do was make a man of his son. When Liam failed because of Id boy, he felt that his father wanted him to fail. He believed that his father didn't love him. As children tend to do, he confused approval and love. He thinks of his father as a self-righteous bastard.

Then Liam is vamped. His eyes are opened and he learns that his father was right. When he comes back, he is going to show his father that he wasn't right. He blames his father for his inferiority complex. Much easier than accepting responsibility for it yourself. The problem with doing this is what Darla points out. When Angel gave that responsibility to his father, only his father could ever lift it. When he killed his father, he damned himself.

As a vampire, this works rather well. Id boy and his inferiority complex are a match made in hell. He revels in being a vampire. Following Id is just what a vampire is supposed to do, so the more he listens to it, the better a vampire he is. He is into the artistry of the kill and style. This shows rather well in two things: his piece de resistance -- the vamping of Drusilla and in his exchange with the Master.

When Angel is resouled, he tries to still be Id boy, but his new soul won't let him be. His Id now includes his vamp desires and his human soul won't let him act on those. Angel has to find a way to deal with this. He tries, but fails, so he runs away from the totality of his Id, not just his vamp desires. Contrast what Angelus says to the Master in "Darla" with Stink Guy we see in "Orpheus." It is these desires, represented by Angelus, that fold back into Angel with the resouling.

It isn't that Angel doesn't want anything, as Wesley says Season 1. It is he won't let himself want anything. He fears what he will become. His inferiority complex isn't rooted in his father's disapproval so much as it is Id boy. Angel has seen what it is he wants. He was Angelus for quite some time. Those desires didn't go away when he got his soul. He still is Id boy, deep inside. He just won't let himself act on those.

Angel is scared of himself, scared of hurting people. He is worried that Id boy will hurt someone. I know that his silent nature annoys a lot of people. It is glaring when it is contrasted with Angelus. Here is how I see it. This is from the story I am currently working on:

Angel could tease back when he wanted. He was exceptionally good at it. Too good sometimes, which is why he rarely did it. He had hurt so many people with words, both as a human and as a vampire. They were a powerful weapon that Angel was still scared of. There were still times when Angel wanted to let his razor sharp wit fly, but he was afraid it would cut someone to shreds. At such times, he tended to say nothing rather than risk saying the wrong thing. The line between good natured ribbing and hurtful comment was so fine that Angel just avoided it.

Angel uses his mission to keep Id boy in check. That is why he started it in the first place, to keep from feeding again. Whistler showed him a way to become something that wouldn't involve Id boy, well he thought it wouldn't any way. Angel's entire self image is based around the superego as a way to keep his Id in check. Champion is his superego.

Angel's inferiority complex was built on his own and his father's disapproval of Id boy. Angel dealt with his father issues earlier. Angelus doesn't disapprove of Id boy. Why would Angelus be anything other than a big frat boy? He's an incredibly perceptive and mean one, but Id boy lives again. There is no more superego to keep it in check.

That is the Angel I see. It should be interesting next season when he has the power to get whatever he wants. Can he keep Id boy in check?

[> Kennedy -- Diana, 06:13:18 07/23/03 Wed

I will try not to make this into bashing. It is just my explanation of why the fans may have hated the character on a gut level beyond "Willow and Tara forever." To be honest, I find Kennedy to be a betrayal of Willow's character.

Kennedy was created to be the anti-Tara. That is exactly what she is and that is why I hate her. Females comes in all types, but on this show people are more than people. They are symbols. Tara was representative of the feminine. If Kennedy is the anti-Tara, there is word for that: masculine.

Willow's story has always been heavy into sexuality, even more than Buffy's. In WttH, Carpe Diem meant seizing a vampire. Oz's Wolf was one big walking penis. Remember back in season 4 when Willow's magick was a metaphor for her exploration into homosexuality.

Take this to season 6, the season about control, dominance and misogyny. The complexity of Tara from Season 5 is stripped down to her being just the feminine. The metaphor of addiction to magick isn't a drug reference. THAT was the metaphor. It was yet again a metaphor for Willow's sexuality. Tara left Willow because of Willow's need to control things. The feminine left Willow as she became masculine. Dark Willow happens when Willow loses her feminine completely. This is healed in one of the most beautiful moments in the show's history, when Xander manages to help her find her feminine again. Male and Female are reunited in their embrace.

Then we get Kennedy. As much as Tara became stripped down into just the feminine, when Joss created the anti-Tara, he gave us just the masculine. In "Lessons" and "Beneath You" the coven is trying to help Willow see that everything is connected. In "Same Time, Same Place," Buffy gives Willow her strength in one of the few moments of beauty of Season 7 outside of the final 5. In "Help," she is looking better. In "Selfless" she is strong enough to come up with the way to help Anya. In CwDP, she is strong enough to realize it isn't Tara giving Cassie the message.

Willow's problem season 6 was she rejected the feminine for the masculine. Healing required her to really embrace it again. His original idea of bringing Tara back would have done this beautifully. As Willow really did embrace the feminine, this would have been symbolized at the end of the episode with Tara coming back. THAT would have fit with the story he has been telling for the last 7 years and I would have bawled my eyes out.

Instead all the healing of the first third of the season was completely thrown away and Willow was reduced to the damsel who needed the knight to save her. It doesn't matter that the knight didn't have a penis. She might as well have. As the anti-Tara, she was the masculine. I couldn't believe when they reduced Willow, WILLOW, to the fair damsel that was healed with a kiss. It betrayed everything they had stood for.

Like I said earlier, women come in all types and none should be denigrated. However this show isn't just about people, but what they represent. What Kennedy represented should not have been what healed Willow.

[> [> Re: Kennedy -- heywhynot, 11:00:45 07/23/03 Wed

I did not see Willow as a damsel who needed saving. I saw her as a person that needed someone to believe in her. To not accept Willow's wallowing in self-doubt to give Willow a kick in the butt. Willow in season 6 rejected hope not her feminine self. She gave up on the world, on living. She was not a person seeking to take over the world, to rule it. She wanted to the pain to stop, life to stop. At first she wanted to control the type of justice the Trio got, but Dark Willow really wasn't about control, she was about despair, wanting all pain to go away.

Willow's recovery was her accepting her whole self. The self that was Dark Willow, the feminine, the masculine had to be all be brought back together. Willow's last fear's that held her back in the last half of season 7 were those associated with what you view as the masculine. The fear she would become Dark Willow. Kennedy allowed her to see that.

[> [> [> Re: Kennedy -- Diana, 11:31:28 07/23/03 Wed

I saw her as a person that needed someone to believe in her.

The coven, Giles, Buffy and Xander. Not really lacking in the people believing in Willow category.

To not accept Willow's wallowing in self-doubt to give Willow a kick in the butt.

Willow didn't start to wallow UNTIL Kennedy was written. That is what I am saying. Willow was reduced to someone that needed a kick in the butt. She didn't need this first third of the season. She got the gentle support she needed from Buffy and Xander. Progress was made and it was beautiful to watch.

Willow in season 6 rejected hope not her feminine self.

That may be how you see it, but the season about control, dominance and misogyny played out in Willow as well, as I see it. I particularly liked when she went out with Amy. Amy played the bad boyfriend even better than Angelus and Spike did.

Dark Willow really wasn't about control

That isn't the impression I got all season and especially in the fight between Buffy and Willow. It was about grief as well, but it was about Willow trying to control that.

That is just how I saw the two seasons and I think that is why a lot of us had a strong negative reaction to Kennedy.

[> [> [> [> Re: Kennedy -- Yellow Bearr, 12:44:34 07/23/03 Wed

Diane, that's a very interesting theory. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it's very interesting.

I think the whole antipathy to Kennedy may be a bit simpler than the above. Namely, Kennedy is Riley. She is the new love interest who is replacing a dearly departed former love interest for the lead and this new love interest is the exact opposite of the former love interest. 'Earthy, crunchy' Tara to 'Brat' Kennedy. 'Billowy coat. King of Pain' Angel to Capt. America Riley (no good quote I could recall for Riley). That a segment of the audience would reject such a startling change is hardly that surprising. Traditionally, TV would just give us a smudged copy of the former love interest, which is what Whedon does with Anya replacing Cordy for Xander. It's worth noting that Anya is probably the only replacement love interest who didn't get a lot of fan antipathy upon her introduction. Worth noting too that Tara was hardly univerally beloved when she was introduced

Take some of the factors I've listed add to that a certain segment of the audience that was never going to accept anyone for Willow after Tara, and you got a good deal of your Kennedy hate handled.

[> [> [> [> [> Sorry, I called you Diane instead of Diana (May Have Been A Cheers Flachback) -- Yellow Bear, 08:36:10 07/24/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Don't worry about it -- Diana, 08:39:12 07/24/03 Thu

There are more than a few resemblances between me and the fictional character any way.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Now, don't say that! -- Arethusa, 09:10:38 07/24/03 Thu

Diane was pompous, overeducated without being wise, indecisive, vain and self-satisfied. Her broad yet shallow education lead her to pontificate on subjects she didn't really understand. Her opinions echoed the last author she read. She was condescending to the less educated and not nearly as bright as she thought.

Please don't think such negative things about yourself.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Diane (and Frasier&Lilith) were my fave characters! -- Rahael, 17:18:22 07/27/03 Sun

Should I be warned off thinking negative thoughts too?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Diane (and Frasier&Lilith) were my fave characters! -- Arethusa, 09:04:23 07/28/03 Mon

Frasier and Lilith were my favorite characters too. And I liked Diane for a long time, until her behavior hurt others, like Sam and Frasier.

You don't need a warning. I often need one, but when I get one I change my behavior.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Honesty compells me to admit -- Rahael, 11:06:54 07/28/03 Mon

that my automatic setting is toward pomposity, I am so overeducated I am apparently unqualifed to do anything really useful, apart from of course, add my opinion on every single thing here. Not only do I echo the last author I read, I write like the last author I read too.

But I don't mind thinking these things about myself really. THere are worse things in the world, chief among them, as you say, hurting people. I have hurt people here, and no matter how much I try not to, I still seem able to. It's a constant work in progress for me. The path to redemption has many slip ups in dark alleyways for me, anyway.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Honesty compells me to admit -- Arethusa, 14:14:36 07/28/03 Mon

I have never seen any evidence of the negative things you described. I wish I could say the same thing about myself.

Is there a limit to the number of epiphanies and new chances we get in life? If not, Angel and I are both in deep trouble.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I see these negatives -- Rahael, 15:18:25 07/28/03 Mon

and I try to strive for a little kindness toward myself, because the self flagellation route didn't work all that well for the people around me. I have an overkeen eye for my own faults, and those of others too, I have to admit. How painful that they seem to be connected!

But, I am pretty loyal. There are quite a few people who once they earn my loyalty can virtually never shake it off.

You Arethusa, are one of them.

(and I mispelt compel, too!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see -- Arethusa, 20:59:10 07/28/03 Mon

No self-flagellation. Check. (Including for spelling.)

I'm honored.


[> [> Why Willow needed them both. -- WickedBuffy, 11:40:48 07/25/03 Fri

First, if I agreed with those beliefs about what feminine and masculine meant, and that Willows journey was about sexuality, etc, then I want to say that was a very great essay and all your points made solid, supportive sense to back everything up.

I'm serious, I put myself in those shoes (legitimately, of course) carrying those definitions - and I perfectly agree. So, from that POV, I would heartily applaud those ideas.

From my own basket of beliefs and POV, I see it very differently. First, I I am a fan who likes Kennedy and did from the start. That really alters my perception of what part she played in Willows life, and what she represented. Maybe it's my confusion of what definitions of "feminine" and "masculine" were used for the post? Symbolically, as you said. I do enjoy looking at the characters as symbols of something, but it is more of a fluid changing thing to me - Willow doesn't always represent femininity to me, though at times, she does according to whatever story is going on and what I feel is being said at a deeper level. (PS I'm a Tara fan also.)

I have experienced Willow as each of the things the posters before me talked, just at different times in the past 7 years. I've personally found it impossible to peg a character as one symbol through the entire run of the show. I enjoy it that way. :>

Plus, I always thought, if someone was having a sexual journey with metaphors, then Buffy was more than Willlow. Willows journey seemed to include a wide range of areas, sexuality one of them, but not the outstanding one.

I saw Tara and Willow exchanging control off and on in their relationship. Here is where my definitions of that come in - they are different than yours, I think. And I'm going to use them as generalities. At times, Willow would be baby-talking and Tara would be more of a motherly/maternally, caretaking figure. Or Tara would be sterner in her compassion, and try to veer Willow away from something unhealthy or evil. Other times, there roles would reverse. Tara would be the more needy one in a situation, and Willow would take the other role. Very smooth and mild transitions back and forth. (I still can't decide who can make their eyes bigger and wider, Tara or Willow. But they were the best of the whole cast at getting that look across, imo.)

So, if Kennedy was the "anti-Tara", and I'm taking a jump here assuming you meant that as "being opposite" and not in an "Anti-Christ" kind of way. (Whap me and steer me back on course if I'm wrong, please!) Then it was because instead the exchange of "power" that was subtle, Willow and Kennedy's was very obvious.

In a way: Kennedys personality was just Tara on steroids. Tara's was Kennedy on valium. Where Tara might frown imperceptibly, Kennedy would express the same emotion with a deep scowl. Tara crosses her arms, Kennedy stamps her feet. Tara sighs and whispers, Kennedy yells and shouts. Same emotions, different temperments. Expressions of them. And both T&K very passionate characters.

The great part of what we got to see happen with Willow was how she grew being exposed to both those forms of attraction, affection and caring.

Willow got the Duckie Wateride and the Roaring Rollercoaster ride. Parts of her were encouraged to respond in different intensities to the two very different ways Tara and Kennedy were. Both in the whole world and in their own private relationship world.

Allegretto and Allegro. Both needed for an expansive piece*. Bringing out Willow in different ways and intensities. Tara served to bring out parts of Willow that Kennedy alone probably couldn't have, but Kennedy served to bring out parts of Willow that Tara alone probably couldn't have.

And we get an even closer look at the different levels of Willow while watching her evolve.

"What Kennedy represented should not have been what healed Willow."

So what I am trying to say, is from my pov, it was the synergy of both Tara and Kennedy on Willow that truly "healed" her. Just one wouldn't have been a balance. Tara and Kennedy weren't competitors, they were on the same "I love Willow" team.

Both were important and aided in Willows wholeness. Just one would have left her less complete than if she'd had the two in her life. Ying and Yang. Sure, she would hav survived without Kennedy in her life, but because she did, Willow gets to have a much larger life.

Diana, you've brought up so many intriguing possibilites and thoughts, it's impossible for me to post all my reactive ideas in one post!

(* note: I wasn't calling Willow "a piece") };>

[> [> [> (sorry, my proofreading sucked in that post) -- WB, 14:19:53 07/25/03 Fri

[> [> [> Only problem -- Diana, 17:46:39 07/25/03 Fri

Joss didn't want to write Kennedy. He wanted to write Tara coming back. He had the episode all thought out and it would end with Tara returning. He cried. The othe writers cried. Amber said, no thank you.

IGNFF: The Kennedy thing almost seemed more of a predatory relationship.

WHEDON: Kennedy is, as she herself said, a bit of a brat. What I wanted was an anti-Tara. I wanted somebody who was as different from Tara as possible. Tara was very reticent, and she was somebody that Willow caused to blossom. What I wanted was somebody who was further on down in dealing with her sexuality than Willow ever was. Somebody who was totally confident, who was totally not earthy-crunchy, who was a completely different person. What I wanted to explore was the concept of Willow moving on. We did that with the first kiss, that turned her into Warren. The first time they had sex, the things that Willow has to deal with emotionally, her fear of her power and stuff, and Kennedy's kind of involvement in that. That's what Kennedy was for.

IGNFF: In execution, it almost seemed like it was a predatory, stalker type, "I'm always here, you're going to give in to me. You're going to give in to me - I'm in your bed!" kind of relationship...

WHEDON: Well, it didn't seem like that to me. It was more like, "I'm really cute. I think you're cute and let's get it on." People are always like, "Oh, they didn't even have a relationship." They had a long talk about, "When did you come out?" and this whole thing at the Bronze that we had never done with Tara, that we very deliberately saying, "Okay, they're starting a relationship." What I was interested in was Willow's guilt, that her life could go on, that her love life could go on after Tara, because that's a part of living. Quite frankly, that was not plan A. Plan A was to bring Tara back.

IGNFF: I heard there were some failed discussions about that.

WHEDON: Amber didn't want to do it. She wanted to do other things. I had a whole - I used to tell people, "Here's what we're going to do. We're going to have her in a couple of flashbacks, keep her alive, and then at the end ..." I had a whole show figured out that ended with the return of Tara. I used to cry every time I pitched it. It was going to be Tara's her one true love, people are going to be blown away, they'll never see it coming - except on the Internet - and it's going to be just about the biggest thing. Quite frankly, Amber just didn't want to do it - which is her decision. I was like, "Okay, the thing where I cried, and we all cried, and I told you about? That's gone. So, instead, we're going to go out and find somebody really hot, and we're going to make this about moving on, because that's the only option we have. I don't want Willow stuck in typical gay celibacy on TV. I'm interested in where her heart will go once she's lost her true love, so let's do that instead." So, you know, hence Kennedy.

Willow didn't need Kennedy. Her story was supposed to end with Tara. I just don't think that Joss realized what the anti-Tara was or else the other writers couldn't pull her off well enough. Riley wasn't the anti-Angel. There was no need to go to the other extreme. If Kennedy was softened just a bit, rather than be the complete anti-Tara that she was, she would have been better recieved.

Just my opinion.

As for my defintions of masculine/feminine, I haven't really given my actual feelings about them, just how the show tends to use them. There is a much, much longer essay (even long by my standards) that will cover this.

[> [> [> [> Maybe our difference here ... -- WickedBuffy, 20:45:36 07/25/03 Fri

is that we both use different reference points for supporting our ideas. I honestly don't feel your direction is any less valid than mine and vice versa.

I read the above as Joss more in support of what I was saying and IGNFF as supporting what you were saying.

My views about how much weight to give what a writer says about what they wrote compared to what happens after it leaves the writers control is to lean more heavily on the second. I hope that makes sense - I explained it much better in some other post that was discussing that topic. It's just from my personal exploration and experience from both sides of a story.

I understand ( and respect) completely that others prefer to give much more weight to what the writer was thinking about when it was written.

But it does make it incredibly more challenging to to get together on some things. Not all and not every... but some.

[> [> [> [> [> Or not. -- WB, 23:24:29 07/28/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Re: Only problem -- heywhynot, 06:38:00 07/27/03 Sun

Did not Joss also want to write it that Tara would come back a evil? I read on Amber Benson's site that is the reason she did not want to come back to the show (plus I am sure the issues with FOX did not help either). I guess eventually the plan was to have good Tara return, but first Willow was to have faced an evil version of Tara. IMHO also you have to go with what was on the show, not What Ifs. Spike was to have left the show in Season 2, the Annointed in Season 1 was to play a bigger role. Angel was not going to be developed like he was and have his own show.

[> [> [> [> [> AB's public comments indicate she was never told of any plan involving good Tara's return -- Sophist, 08:13:49 07/27/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> She just didn't want to appear as the First Evil -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:00:33 07/27/03 Sun

Remember, she said this while the "Dead/Evil Lesbian cliche" debate was still hot. She probably saw being one of the First's incarnations as something that would inevitably make people more pissed off rather than less.

[> Just wanted to say: I had a thread last SEVEN days !!!!! -- Diana, 10:22:57 07/28/03 Mon

[> [> You go, Di! Smoochies! ;o) -- Rob, 11:21:32 07/28/03 Mon

[> [> Day EIGHT!!!! There is some Wooos and even some Hoooos for that -- Diana, 09:10:48 07/29/03 Tue

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