July 2003 posts
perfect bumper sticker! -- Kate, 10:42:48 07/22/03 Tue
Was driving along this morning and this is the bumper sticker
I saw on the back of the car in front of me and it just "screamed"
Willow to me. Had me laughing hysterically after I read it. (There
may be slight paraphrasing as college ruined my short-term memory.
"I'm sorry I haven't been to church (or in Willow's case,
synagogue), I've been too busy practicing witchcraft and becoming
a lesbian." hehehe...perfect, no?
[> Variations on the theme..
-- ZachsMind, 12:48:20 07/22/03 Tue
I'd like to see one for Buffy that read, "sorry I haven't
been to class, but I've been too busy dusting meanies and saving
Or perhaps Xander, "Sorry I haven't been to work, but I've
been too busy keeping friends from killing each other and getting
my eye gouged out by a priest."
Giles: "Sorry I haven't been back to England, but I've been
too busy babysitting rank, arrogant, amateur mallrats and tolerating
gothic hairgel pooftahs."
Anya: "Sorry I haven't been evil, but I've been too busy
accumulating large sums of money and rolling around in it while
singing book numbers and runaway pop hits!"
Spike: "Sorry I haven't been... oh, bugger this!"
[> [> I always wanted
one that says: -- Anneth, 14:07:51 07/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> with appropriate
grrrraphics, of course -- mamcu, 07:41:12 07/23/03 Wed
You can have stickers made, of course. Just google and you'll
find sites that sell the paper or that will make them for you--but
you knew that.
[> [> [> [> Why,
yes! Of course I did! Really! I'm an old hand at this custom-made
bumper-sticker thing! -- Anneth, who's not lying. Really.,
10:50:35 07/23/03 Wed
[> I have that one! and...
-- Q, 14:37:09 07/22/03 Tue
I have a little sticker of Willow that I got out of some Buffy
the Vampire Slayer lollipops I bought. I stuck the picture of
Willow on the bumper sticker (they match perfect-- the Willow
sticker is in front of a purple background, and my bumper sticker
is purple-- you can hardly tell that the picture wasn't originally
on the bumper sticker!), and stuck the bumper sticker on my car,
and it is a beautiful thing!
[> [> That's so kewl...I
love it!! :) -- Kate, 21:23:59 07/22/03 Tue
Muffet... -- ZachsMind,
12:09:20 07/22/03 Tue
Please feel free to share your thoughts about the whole Little
Miss Muffet thing in this thread, if you have any thoughts. Be
they overexciteable or ambivalent, insulated or flame-retardant.
It is my hope that while we may not get to the bottom of it once
and for all, that we perhaps at least exhaust all possible avenues
of discussion on this and cover every inch that hasn't yet been
covered, provided that hasn't already been done elsewhere. If
it has, please provide a link. =) For better or for worse, the
following is my latest brainstorm on the topic.
Since season three, I've been trying to figure out where Joss
got his "Little Miss Muffet" fascination. It shows up
a few times in the series. Of course, on the surface it appears
to be just like the Cheese Man in "Restless" (something
that's there just for fun), I can't shake that there's a reason
even if it's maybe unconscious, that Whedon chose that particular
nursery rhyme over all others.
From "Nightmares" in season one.
XANDER: (to Willow) It could be a coincidence. Y'know, Wendell
finds a spider's nest, and we all wig because he dreamt about
spiders. So it may not be connected.
From "Graduation Part Two" in season three.
FAITH: Oh yeah. - Miles to go - Little Ms. Muffet counting down
From "The Real Me" in season five.
GUY: I know you. Curds and whey. I know what you are. You. Don't.
From "Lessons" in season seven.
WILLOW: ...It's all connected.
While I'm not certain this is THE place, it certainly may be a
clue leading to it. It's a speech given by Jim Shooter, who in
the minds of some is second only to Stan Lee in the historical
pantheon of Marvel Comics editors. I'm not personally a jawdropping
fan of Shooter's, but I will admit the man knows how to tell a
story. In his speech, Shooter describes what it takes to tell
a story. He tried to condense the concept into the most integral
and important parts, shearing away complexities like plot structure
and five act formulas that college professors force into impressionable
minds. Shooter gets to the nitty gritty: "What it was,
what happened, how'd it come out," Shooter says. "Remember
that. Forget this beginning, middle and end. Forget this Act I,
Act II, Act III stuff. It doesn't mean anything." Then
Shooter goes on to explain in some more detail what each means.
"WAS" deals mostly with the status quo, and establishing
the characters and the setting. "HAPPENED" focuses on
changes, opportunities and obstacles that are overcom. "COME
OUT" isn't so much an ending per se, as it is a description
of the effect of that change. So Shooter's explaining more that
just beginning middle and end, but how to describe a cycle of
life in the form of storytelling.
So I'm reading along, nodding my head to this stuff. Interesting
retread on stuff I know. A fresh outlook on how to write. That's
nice. But then I come to this:
"Okay, how are you going to remember all of that stuff?
I'll tell you what, it's all in a little poem called Little Miss
Muffet. Little Miss Muffet sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and
whey; along came a spider, who sat down beside her and scared
poor Miss Muffet away. It's all there. It's a story.."
Introduce the characters (Little Miss Muffet)
Establish a status quo (Curds and Whey)
Introduce the disruption (Along Came A Spider)
Build suspense (Sat Down Beside Her)
Climax (Scared Poor Miss Muffet)
Shooter used Ms Muffet as an example for storytelling in his seminar
speech about writing. IF there was some way to prove that Whedon
experienced Shooter's usage of Muffet prior to season three of
Buffy, then maybe we would have found the impetus for Whedon's
use of that nursery rhyme. Maybe it was an inside joke between
him and some other writers. How he was turning Shooter's entire
concept of storywriting on its ear.
Otherwise, I may just be huffing and puffing and blowing down
a house of straw. I mean, sometimes a stake is just a stake, y'know?
But still, it's fun to contemplate. =)
[> Oops! Forgot the link!
LOL! -- ZachsMind, 12:17:07 07/22/03 Tue
Shooter's "How to Write Comics"
and simple thoughts on 'Angel' -- Q, 19:45:25 07/22/03
With the only exception being "Prophecy Girl", this
is the best episode of season one. This episode is huge for a
couple of reasons, one-it sets up what is to be the pre-eminent
arc for the next 3 seasons, and my personal favorite arc in the
history of the show, the B/A relationship, and two-it is an amazing
precursor to an entire television program: Ats.
I have only two complaints: score music and a little bit of continuity.
As for continuity-most of it worked, and what didn't could usually
be explained through lack of honesty for certain things characters
said. One problem doesn't work for me: The relationship between
the Master and Angel. The Master says things like "Angel-I
miss him! He was the most ferocious beast I have ever seen"
and "But to lose her to Angel! He was to sit at my right
hand come the day!". These phrases do not jive with what
we have seen later in the shows. When we see Master flashbacks
on Angel, Angel and the Master feud every time they see each other,
show each other no respect, and just generally hate each other.
The Master acts like Angel is nothing to him, a phase for Darla,
a "stallion". All I'm asking for in this little rant
is a future episode on Angel featuring the Master, so we can see
how their relationship went from where it was in "Darla"
to where the Master felt it should be in "Angel". I
hope the ME writers give us that soon!!!!
Other than that-I loved this episode. The low key lighting gave
an exciting "noir" feel. The love scenes were the most
romantic and sizzled with the most chemistry I have seen before
or since. The final scene blew me away! Sophia Zelmani's "I'll
Remember You" gave just the right amount of heartbreak to
a scene that would be rife with it, as Buffy and Angel said goodbye
in the first scene in the series that brings tears to my eyes
(many would follow). The final image of Buffy permanently scarred
on Angels heart will stay with me like the final images in great
films like "El Norte" or great novels like "The
Grapes of Wrath" or "Animal Farm". Final images
are huge for me, and this paid off in spades, just like the aforementioned
With all of the high school horror metaphors going on, it seems
they get more intense each week. Last weeks "pack" symbolism
was depressing enough, adding in first love and first loss is
just heart wrenching.
[> Re: Some quick and simple
thougths on 'Angel' -- manwitch, 21:19:06 07/22/03 Tue
I might add Nightmares as another exception, if it was
me (which it isn't), but I did like this when I rewatched it the
other night. I don't think Darla quite has the stature I would
like her to have, but the Buffy/Angel relationship is great as
it develops. And we get a nice dose of Joyce, too.
In fairness, your complaints about inconsistencies with other
eps regarding the Master/Angel relationship are really the fault
of the other eps, rather than this one. They shoulda paid attention
to what they already showed.
As for that final scene, the shot as Buffy pulls away and you
have the dark back of angel on the right and Buffy in the light
on the left as she pulls back from him and you see the cross hanging
there in the space left by that low cut top... That is just a
really nice image, and maybe the first time it really hits me
that Buffy is staggeringly beautiful. And I don't just mean that
in the "Oooo Sarah Michelle Gellar is so hot" way. There
is something about Buffy, the way she's lit and framed,
along with the whole makeup and art direction package, and of
course, along with the depth of character portrayed, that to me
makes this character one of the most beautiful people I've ever
seen on film or tv. Its way beyond the looks, wonderful though
they may be, of the actress herself.
I agree about final images in general, and I think that's something
this series came to excel at. I've been watching these early episodes,
trying to see when it first really mastered the art of the last
couple of seconds and the cut to black. So many are so perfect.
Bargaining part 2, Reptile Boy, Hush, Living Conditions, I was
Made to Love You, Family, Lover's Walk, Gingerbread, Doomed. You
can go on and on, with episodes that just crystallize all the
emotion you've been made to feel throughout the episode into those
final seconds and then cut to black and Executive Producer Joss
Whedon. Those words have come to be synonymous for me with "Wow.
And I think you're right. This is the first time they really hit
[> Agree whole-heartedly!
-- Scroll, 21:32:23 07/22/03 Tue
"Angel" remains one of my personal favourites for exactly
the reasons you list: 1) setting up the B/A arc; 2) setting up
Angel: the Series. Plus, we get the gorgeous and talented
Julie Benz as seductive Catholic schoolgirl Darla. We get our
first glimpse at vampiric social hierarchy, at how the Master's
"family" operates. The love and duty that goes hand
in hand with punishment and betrayal. We get my other favourite
Angel pairing, Angel/Darla.
As a bonus, we explore the house/family metaphor for the very
first time. We see the framing of doorways/windows, with Angel
on the outside, and his loved ones inside. "Angel" is
a direct lead-in to "Pangs", to "Prodigal",
to "Blood Money". To the Darla arcs of Seasons 2 and
3, to "A New World". To "Deep Down" and "Home",
an episode that's caused severe emotional trauma to many posters
on this board (myself included!) for the shocking way the family/home
metaphor is finally(?) concluded.
The symbolism of Buffy's cross burning Angel, Darla's surface
innocence hiding a feral viciousness hiding a sincere possessive/abiding
love for her "darling boy", Willow's optimistic Buffy/anybody
'shipperiness, Angel's confession of his sins, the Master's tutoring
of his Anointed One, Joyce's willful blindness, Friar Giles with
a staff -- this is classic Buffy at its finest :)
Q, I have to admit, I've never really noticed the music. Or rather,
I've never had any qualms with the music and tend to simply go
with the flow when watching this ep. I agree the song at the Bronze
fits the mood of the scene, slow and dark and melancholy, though
I never really paid attention to the lyrics. What in particular
do you not like about the score?
As for the Master -- I don't have any problems with this since
our glimpse of Angelus and the Master in "Darla" was
from 1760, shortly after Angelus' siring. By 1880, Angelus had
clearly matured and grown as a vampire, becoming quite the legend
in his own time. I'm sure the Master would've slowly come to accept
him as Angelus' reputation grew. But I agree, I hope Season 5
will bring more flashbacks so we can see the Fanged Four again,
with Granddaddy Master as well! It'll be fun! And bloody! No souls!
Bad wigs! Julie Benz in a corset! Whee!
[> [> Just so you guys
know... I wasn't complaining. -- Q, 23:56:11 07/22/03 Tue
I wasn't complaining that the difference in the Master/Angel relationship
from "Darla" to "Angel" was a continuity error--
I know a lot could have happened between the two episodes.
I'm just saying that I would love to SEE what exactly happened.
I really hope they show us some day.
As for the music... I felt most of season 1's scoring was a little
light and formulaic. In season 2 the music started using "lietmotifs",
so to speak, not just to symbolize characters, but also more for
situations and emotion. The music seemed to get much more haunting,
and at the same time beautiful. The music here didn't seem to
do as much justice to the B/A relationship as the music at the
end of season 2, and then again-- the "new" B/A theme
at the end of season 3. The B/A theme that appeared at the end
of season 2 is just amazing to me, and my favorite part about
episodes like "forever" is not seeing Angel again, as
much as hearing that theme again!
I love the Sophie Zelmani song played at the bronze, and find
it significant that a very important B/A episode was titled "I
will remember you" down the road.
[> [> [> Nice about
the music. I agree completely. -- manwitch, 04:57:32 07/23/03
[> S1 Favorites Fast Forward:
Welcome To The Hellmouth/The Harvest, Angel, Nightmares & Prophecy
Girl -- Just George, 22:29:58 07/22/03 Tue
[> [> S1 Favourite: 'The
Puppet Show' -- Liam, 01:33:27 07/23/03 Wed
While I agree with others that 'The Pack', 'Angel' and 'Prophecy
Girl' are the best episodes in the season, another favourite of
mine is 'The Puppet Show', which I love for the following reasons:
1. The beginning is nice, where we have the Scooby Gang interacting
over something not slaying related. I loved the mocking of Giles,
and the fact that he got his revenge when Snyder appeared.
2. The first appearance of the misanthropic Snyder, one of my
favourite recurring characters.
3. Cordy singing in such a way that if she carried on, Whitney
would have committed suicide. :)
4. The plot was wonderful, with Buffy and the dummy first believing
that the other was the villain, and later all believing that once
Morgan was dead the demon had moved on.
5. The Giles and Cordy interaction, with gems such as:
a. Him getting rid of her by using an old trick of Xander's by
pretending that something was wrong with her hair.
b. Him trying to relax her by suggesting she imagine that the
audience is in their underwear, grossing her out.
6. Buffy, after having held Morgan's brain, saying that she wouldn't
stop washing her hands.
7. The fight with the demon, with Xander saving Giles's life,
and the scene at the end when the curtain came up.
8. The very end, when Buffy, Willow and Xander are doing their
dramatic monologue, which never fails to crack me up; as I see
a Willow who gets stage fright and runs off, a Xander who forgets
his lines, and a Buffy bored with the whole thing. :D
For all these reasons, it's one of my favourite episodes of the
season, and a good episode to introduce people to 'Buffy'.
[> [> [> Agree
-- Finn Mac Cool, 11:59:30 07/23/03 Wed
In the beginning of the episode, I was thinking that it would
almost certainly be the dummy that did it, while also thinking
to myself that, if it were a Season Six episode, it would almost
certainly be Morgan who was the killer. As such, for a bit I was
sitting there, enjoying the humorous bits, but a little bored
since I was confident of the mystery's solution. Then Sid called
Buffy a demon, and suddenly my ears perked up. The plot twist
was such an inventive and unexpected one that I also must rank
this episode among the best of Season 1 (though none will surpass
[> Agree--also -- mamcu,
07:31:15 07/23/03 Wed
Great comments--I totally agree about the quality. Angel also
seems to me to be the first episode that really shows the depth
of the whole series as it would come to be. Episodes like WtH,
Pack, etc. are still a bit in the cute realm, and although some
of them work well for comedy or even character study, dealing
with deeper themes, like The Witch, they don't quite tap into
the complexity of the characters, especially Buffy.
I also watched Halloween last night on FX, and the Janus image
and the statement about the split in the self, the dark and the
light, suddenly seemed to me to be one of the biggest themes throughout
the whole series--and Angel is the first time we see this theme
brought to the front so clearly, especially with Buffy.
[> [> Re: Agree--also
-- Alison, 09:39:30 07/23/03 Wed
Agreed. Duality is a huge theme on Buffy, and while earlier episodes
had flirted with the concept- shadow selves, evil Xander...Angel's
battle with his vampire self brought the theme to center stage.
Integration of the self isn't yet adressed, but it is Angel's
greatest (and still on going) struggle.
Don't really have anything to add here, but good point.
[> The arc and some other
thoughts -- Diana, 08:13:59 07/23/03 Wed
Do I need to tell anyone that I love this episode? The complexity
of a vampire with a soul is, well there isn't a word that can
describe how it makes this vampirephile feel. Just when I was
starting to ask "Where are all the frigging vampires?"
Joss doesn't like to name episodes after a character. Goddard
wanted to name "Selfless" "Anya," but Joss
vetoed that. In this episode we learn a lot more about Angel,
but Buffy herself really shows what an angel she is. When she
bares her neck for Angel, I fell in love with her all over again,
just like I did when she felt for Willow at the water fountain.
What I want to contribute to this discussion is the arc that got
us here. This is the first real arc that we see and by examining
it we can see ME's MO. They have a story and they have to convey
certain things to tell that story. Say they were telling the story
of Little Red Ridding Hood. They need her to leave home with her
basket of goodies. To travel through the woods. To meet the wolf,
etc. ME has that story, but instead of her traveling through the
woods they come up with a metaphor to convey this element. Instead
of Little Red Ridding Hood traveling through the woods, she reads
a book. That seems to have nothing to do with the story and is
often referred to as a "Stand Alone Episode," but really
it is important to the arc, the important arc, the emotional arc.
ME takes the story they want to tell, in this case Buffy falling
for the wrong guy, and figures out what is required to tell this
story. Then they make episodes out of those elements. What elements
were required to tell this story? Greenwalt wrote this episode
and starts really setting it up with "Teacher's Pet."
Why Teacher's Pet? Who among us hasn't fantasized about a teacher?
If you wanted to write an episode about how Buffy's feelings for
Angel start with this sort of fantasy, what better way? The opening
of "Angel" Buffy tells Willow "it's like the lights
dim everywhere else." This corresponds with the fantasy aspect
of this relationship.
I will say this once more. Season 1, Buffy/Angel is NOT a good
or healthy thing. He is so the wrong guy for her. She knows next
to nothing about him and creates this fantasy around him (which
she writes about in her diary). He is in no place to have a relationship
Next element is "Never Kill a Boy on the First Date."
Looks are deceiving. Very important element to this story. It
is also the flip side of Angel. They have a lot in common. "solitary,
mysterious...He can brood for forty minutes straight." He
likes to read. "He's sensitive, yet manly." Cordy hits
on him, but he isn't interested (this is also the episode where
Cordy's interest in Angel is started). I loved the pocket watch.
Of course Xander is maxi-jealous. What they don't have in common
is important: Owen is a regular guy and finds Buffy's world makes
him feel "alive."
The show tends to advocate the Golden Means. Angel and Owen both
represent extremes. The arc about Angel S1 could very well have
been part of a larger arc that would have put Xander and Buffy
together. That isn't what happened, so instead I will just look
at the Angel arc, which is still part of the arc in which Buffy
learns to accept her Calling which is part of the even larger
7 season story about female empowerment.
In NKABOTFD, we see a progression of Buffy finding Owen to be
dreamy to realizing Owen isn't suitable for her. This happens
in "Angel" from "Good dogs don't bite" to
when she thinks he bites her mom. The entire part of the show
that happens in the funeral home in NKABOTFD can be compared to
Buffy in the library in "Angel."
Next element is we need to see why Angel isn't suitable for Buffy.
Xander is so lets sort of vamp him without vamping him in "The
Pack." Even Xander's embarrassment about what he did as a
hyena "shoot me, stuff me, mount me," compares to Angel's
guilt over his own feelings. Xander wants to pretend that nothing
ever happened and Angel and Buffy try to forget about their feelings
for each other.
I love when the series does that. There is a lot more to those
episodes that lead up to "Angel," besides just setting
up things and telling the story before they tell it. One thing
ME does well is multitask.
I love the flow of this episode and could talk about it ad nausem.
The theme of loyalty is particularly interesting. Angel's first
words are "Good dogs don't bite." The Three have a slavish
devotion to the Master. They give their lives when they think
they have failed him. Angel thinks he has failed Buffy and isn't
a good dog and wants "it finished." Darla is upset because
Angel is no longer faithful to her or what she thinks he is. Darla's
loyalty is to the Master and she obeys him. Buffy's friends show
a high degree of loyalty when they tell her that Angel didn't
bite Joyce. Xander's loyalty is clouded by his feelings for Buffy.
There is a lot of fun stuff with Darla that will be played on
later. Darla says that she wants to be there when Angel finally
explodes. That would be season 2 AtS and it wasn't pretty. Darla's
relationship with the Master is even better in light of "Darla."
It is a triangle that doesn't get discussed too much Master/Darla/Angel(us).
Darla's plan to get Angel to go evil/kill Buffy has a lot of echo
in Wolfram and Hart's plans.
Willow's line "If you care about somebody you care about
them. You can't change that by..." has a lot of resonance
with both season 2 and 3. This episode will have a lot of parallels
with "Amends," where once again Angel wants to die.
Like any Greenwalt episode this is chock full of yummy layery
goodness. I look forward to seeing those layers peeled away.
[> [> Strangely, I agree
Angel is not the right guy -- Scroll, 23:58:09 07/24/03
While I think Buffy and Angel were exactly right for each other
post-"When She Was Bad" and pre-"Surprise",
I agree wtih you that Angel was entirely wrong for Season 1 Buffy.
She didn't know him well enough, she was still searching to understand
what it meant to be a Slayer and balancing a real life with her
duties. She should've used more caution in dealing with a souled
vampire, but she fell for him much like in a fantasy.
OTOH, I think Buffy was perfect for Angel pretty much from the
get-go! While I see the Lolita-like subtext being inserted in
the B/A romance, I actually don't have a problem with it. And
while Angel is older and more experienced in sex and relationships,
I see him as innocent/inexperienced when it comes to emotions.
But I don't see Xander as being disloyal in this ep. I mean, later
he does do things that go against Buffy because he sees things
differently (which could be called disloyal ie the lie), but in
"Angel" I see him as merely playing devil's advocate.
Though he probably does mean everything he says! But his actions
prove that he's firmly in Buffy's corner, IMO.
Totally agree about Darla. I love Darla :)
[> [> [> I wanna gush
about Angel -- Diana, 09:31:26 07/25/03 Fri
Above I have to figure out how to put the complexity of this character,
which I love to do, but now I just want to be irrational fan girl.
Don't take anything below as serious analysis.
Angel and Buffy are so the right characters for each other, except
in season 1. Because of their bizarre circumstances they can understand
things about each other that no other character really gets. When
Angel first sees Buffy he says tha what makes him fall in love
with her is that she holds her heart out for everyone to see.
Take that way back to Liam who was hurting on the inside, but
buried that in wine, women and fistacuffs. Buffy is what Angel
wants to be, what he is deep inside.
What makes this the right guy for Buffy is that only someone like
that could understand her. Angel is the one that knows when something
is wrong with Buffy and is able to help her. It is Angel's shoulder
that she cries on at the end of "When She was Bad."
Season 2 and 3 if Buffy talks about something, chances are it
is because Angel got her to. That is why I liked them together.
"Earshot" puts what their relationship could be best.
So fast forward to season 7 and the turgid supernatural soap opera
that Angel/Buffy/Spike could be. Buffy already knows that Angel
is a suitable partner and they are emotionally compatible. If
anything, she knows he is so suitable that they are looking at
"and they lived happily ever after." She isn't ready
for that, so she isn't ready for him. It is like Angel has auditioned
for the role of loving partner and got it, but the director decided
that the part doesn't fit the play right now.
Put yourself in Buffy's position. Prior to "Chosen"
Angel was always the one doing the leaving. Now he is acting different.
When they kiss, there is no pulling away because Angel is afraid
of the curse (I'm still convinced the curse is gone and he knows
it). He is in this with her to the end shoulder to shoulder. Talk
about some subtext there. This is subtext that Buffy isn't ready
Spike on the other hand isn't perfect for the role, so he is a
suitable partner RIGHT NOW. It would be confusing for Buffy to
have Angel around because how can she concentrate on Mr. Right
Now, when Mr. Right is there. If would be confusing for Angel
because she doesn't want to give him the brush off or shut the
door on them forever. She just isn't ready for it yet. It would
be confusing to Spike because, well it is Spike, but also because
he knows that Angel is her ultimate choice.
Spike is the better choice for Buffy to work on her trust issues.
That was the purpose of that relationship this season. It revisited
Riley and the Replacement in a way. Buffy sees herself as two
people and doesn't accept one herself so she doesn't trust that
anyone else accepts all of her. She does believe that Angel does,
because of his bizarre circumstances. With Spike, she doesn't
believe he knows the real her and is only into the challenge.
It was a nice resolution to this on her way to the formless.
I can't wait until they pay all this off hopefully next season
[> short thought --
MsGiles, 09:24:38 07/23/03 Wed
Yeah, it's a nice lurky episode. Angel comes out of the shadows,
but only a bit at a time. He sticks around, keeps doing the helping
thing - a lo! gets a snog. Then his pesky ex turns up, and the
secret is out. he's not just a *bit* older, he's a *lot* older.
He has a violent past, previous girlfriends, links with the bad
guys, he's a (gulp) vampire. He has a dangerous side to him. Maybe
he's Bad News, Buffy. But nothing can stand in the way of true
Lurve. And he is doing that helping thing, the thing that Xander
isn't quite up to.
Glamorous Angel, with his exotic tattoo. Interesting the way he
vamps up when he kisses Buffy. On one level, it shows that he
can't keep his nature a secret from her, when he gets close. Walls,
pretences, have to start coming down. He's avoided close contact
up to now, but he chooses to stick around after the Three attack.
Is he aware of Darla's presence, and that if he doesn't put the
moves on Buffy soon it will be too late, too many cats will be
out of bags?
On another level, this scene links vampirism with sex in a way
BtVS tends to play down, although much vamp fiction (from Dracula
to Anne Rice) plays it up (so to speak). Even Spike, sexgod of
S6, doesn't play biting/sex games (although I noticed him giving
Anya a sneaky nibble at one point). Maybe Angel just gets hungry,
so close to a warm neck. Maybe.
[> Re: Some quick and simple
thougths on 'Angel' -- Malandanza, 08:06:47 07/24/03 Thu
"This episode is huge for a couple of reasons, one-it
sets up what is to be the pre-eminent arc for the next 3 seasons,
and my personal favorite arc in the history of the show, the B/A
relationship, and two-it is an amazing precursor to an entire
television program: Ats."
I was annoyed by the Vampire/Slayer romance at the start of the
series, but I was watching Buffy more for the horror and comedy
than for the soap opera. It seemed a bit cliche -- the wrong guy,
it can't possibly work but it does anyway once her friends get
over their prejudice. Also the age difference bothered me -- not
a 240 year old vampire dating a sixteen year old girl, but a guy
who looked like he was college age dating a high school sophomore.
These types of relationships do happen, and they aren't happy
romances. They are exploitative relationships with serious power
imbalances that almost invariably hurt the girl. At this stage,
it seemed to me that ME viewed B/A like Willow viewed B/A, and
that was a very bad message to send to the young viewers.
However, Season Two subverted the cliche and, without turning
into an after school special, demonstrated (through the metaphor
of Angelus) that just because that handsome older guy says he
loves you, doesn't mean he has your best interests at heart (they
repeated the lesson in Season Four with Parker, only this time
with 97% less metaphor and with Buffy as, at least nominally,
an adult). I was genuinely surprised when Buffy didn't save Angel
at the last minute in B2; I had expected a fairy tale ending (modern
fairy tale, I mean). So looking back on the early B/A scenes,
I find them less offensive -- because I know where it is headed,
and Willow isn't speaking with the voice of the writers, but with
the voice of naivete. Plus, by Season Five, B/A had evolved into
a deep and abiding friendship -- perhaps the most adult relationship
on the show.
Other things I liked about this episode:
We see Angel as dangerous for the first time -- in his fight with
Buffy, he projects actual menace. Our first glimpse of the potential
Angel tells Buffy he hasn't fed on a living person since
getting cursed. A nice bit of equivocation on his part.
Angel and Darla at Angel's apartment gives us a preview of the
AtS relationship -- in particular, this scene recalls the bodice
ripping adventure in the old convent.
Joyce as the "cool" mom -- she has a pretty good idea
of what's going on between her daughter and a clearly older man,
yet trusts Buffy to say goodnight and, presumably, not see him
again without any words of admonition (not that Buffy would have
listened to her mother).
SMG's acting -- you could watch the episode with the sound off
and still know exactly what Buffy is feeling.
Finally, I'd like to thank Q for consistently starting off these
[> [> At the time it
was undecided how old Buffy was -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:17:06
From what I've heard, during Season 1, the odds were very great
there would never be a second season, so, at least in their own
heads, they pegged Buffy as a Senior. However, when a second season
became feasible, they needed to reduce Buffy's age down to Sophomore
level. So, when B/A began, it was an apparently college age guy
and someone the writers were thinking of in their heads as a Senior,
meaning she'd be college aged herself in almost no time. Perhaps
that's why they changed the way they treated B/A come Season 2:
Buffy suddenly became two years younger.
[> [> [> Huh, I didn't
know that about Buffy's age -- good point! -- Scroll, 01:32:41
[> [> [> No, her age
was mentioned, as was her being a sophomore -- Darby, 07:16:13
Don't have the exact spots, but both show up in the first season,
which was all "in the can" by the time they started
One mention was early, when Joyce says, (paraphrasing) "It's
all end-of-the-world, life-and-death when you're a sixteen-year-old-girl!"
The sophomore reference may have been more oblique, possibly to
Xander, Willow, or Cordelia (whose comment about "senior
boys" in the first or second episode also makes it clear
that they were not seniors).
[> [> [> [> The
way I heard about it was . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:35:24
Someone said that in "I Robot, You Jane", when Moloch
looked into Buffy's school file, parts of it seemed to say she
was a Senior, and others that she was a Sophomore. The way I heard
it was that, for the most part while filming Season 1, they were
thinking of Buffy as a Senior, but it wasn't until near the end
of shooting that they realized it would be impractical in case
there was a second season (and, even though the 16 comment was
made in "The Harvest", since the whole season was filmed
before airing, there's no way of telling when in the production
process that scene was filmed).
[> [> [> [> The
Harvest: 'Everything is life or death when you're a 16 year old
girl.' -- Sophist, 09:45:14 07/25/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> Re:
No, her age was mentioned, as was her being a sophomore --
Anneth, 14:49:33 07/25/03 Fri
I know this is sort of nitpicky, but if you freeze-frame on Buffy's
school record in I Robot, you can see that her year is written
[> [> [> [> [>
You'll need to freeze-frame twice -- Q, 15:16:06 07/25/03
They show the shot of Buffy's file on the computer screen twice
in IRYJ, and the information in the file is COMPLETELY different
both times-- different birth dates and everything-- I have no
idea why they would do that-- do they have no respect for our
anal viewing habits?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> check thrice -- tost, 23:00:22 07/25/03 Fri
In the space of a few seconds the computer shows three screens
of Buffy information.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: check thrice -- Darby, 06:02:13 07/26/03
So obviously, in an era of VHS, no one thought it mattered what
was put on the screen, and they certainly weren't tied to it -
Buffy's birthday, according to the kinda sorta realtime Buffyverse
seasons, is in January, which doesn't match up with any of these.
Keep in mind that this was also the episode where no one had a
problem with the concept that Buffy could tail a car across town
on foot and not be noticed until she got where they were going.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: check thrice -- tost, 09:11:36
I like to think of it as an example of the fluid nature of reality,
combining the capricious cruelty of lowering Buffy's grade point
average with Abby Hoffman's comment that "reality is silly
putty." Later, as OnM points, out Buffy will do a little
reality altering of her own. By extension so do we all.
As M.E. might more succinctly put "It's Magic."
[> [> [> [> Flutie,
WttH: Buffy Summers. Sophomore. In script, on screen. -- Darby,
07:45:08 07/26/03 Sat
If the original had said, "Senior," I can see editing
it out, but not getting the actor in months afterward (he was
no longer under any contract, with his character dead) to loop
a single word. There's also lots of evidence that they'll leave
shooting script errors in there, even if they get corrected later.
[> [> Any experts on
18th century Irish culture? -- Q, 15:20:38 07/25/03 Fri
A lot of people have voiced concern over the age difference between
Buffy and Angel.
I'm just curious if anyone knows-- would the taboo against "dating"
a minor for a young twenty-something that we have in modern Western
society have been the same in Ireland when Angel was growing up?
Or would they have not looked down on this pairing as much? I
don't know anything about it, but it is possible, that Angel's
point of view on the matter was a little different because of
his upbringing-- and how socializing was when he was "of
age". Anybody know?
[> [> [> Re: Any experts
on 18th century Irish culture? -- MaeveRigan, 20:27:50
Pre-vampire Angel at whatever age he was in 18th c. Ireland obviously
cared little for social proprieties.
But even if he had cared, I think that's irrelevant for souled-vampire
Angel in the 20th century. He's had plenty of time to become familiar
with 20th century culture, and he's now trying to atone for his
past evil deeds. He clearly has qualms about the romance building
between himselfe & Buffy--not only because she's legally a minor,
but more importantly because she's the Slayer and he's a vampire,
even with a soul. That is the real heart of the matter
and always will be, unless or untill things change.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Any experts on 18th century Irish culture? -- Liam, 05:42:54
While I'm not an expert on the period, I've read a little about
it. Liam, being the only son of a merchant, would have been expected
to work in the business, so he could take over when his father
died. In that period, there was no such thing as the 'teenage
years' we know of today, people being expected to take on responsibilities,
sometimes serious ones, at an age where most of us would be in
high school or college. Liam was vamped into Angel in his twenties,
a time when he would have been expected to be working in his father's
business and probably married with a young family.
Of course, Liam was a drunken, whoring layabout, who shirked any
kind of work, and whom girls didn't need to be told not to marry.
For that reason, he would certainly have been socially shunned
and a source of great embarassment to his family. By the standards
of the time, he would certainly have been regarded as _very_ immature,
more so than in our own period, because of his shunning of any
kind of responsibility.
Phantom Dennis -- JBone,
20:14:16 07/22/03 Tue
No, but while she's in here, she might as well get that thing
done. You know that thing on her face. You know that thing.
Keep posting comments here for now.
[> Oh please... -- LadyStarlight,
20:36:39 07/22/03 Tue
Cordy kicked Mama Dennis' butt, do you really think she'll have
any trouble with the son?
[> The homefield advantage
-- manwitch, 20:57:17 07/22/03 Tue
Cordy doesn't even have to kick dennis's butt. Phantom Dennis
remembers what Cordy did for him and has no interest in messing
with his roommate.
In fact, I feel pretty bad for anybody that goes up against Cordy
in this particular venue, cuz Phantom Dennis will take care of
[> Didn't she have him totally
whipped in, like, one episode? -- HonorH, 21:00:27 07/22/03
And he liked it that way. Thus, I'm going for Queen C, through
to the next round!
[> Cordy -- Rochefort,
21:09:37 07/22/03 Tue
Cordy. Watch for her to hook up with Spike after she returns to
the show and they get rid of Boreanaz. Won't that be cute?
[> Re: Cordelia vs Phantom
Dennis -- ApOpHiS, 21:12:31 07/22/03 Tue
I vote for Cordy, not just for her ill-explained demon powers
or because of our brief but torrid affair, but because, even without
all of that, she could easily browbeat and shame Dennis into slinking
off into the white light he's been ignoring for the last 50 years.
Just because he's intangible doesn't mean he can't feel.
[> A tragic first round
match up -- cjl, 21:17:39 07/22/03 Tue
This contest cannot and should not happen. manwitch is right--Dennis
is completely devoted to Cordy, and to pit the two against each
other in combat destroys one of the great platonic love stories
of the Whedonverse. Of course, if there has to be a battle to
the death, Cordy could obliterate Dennis with eight simple-but-devastating
words: "I never loved you and I never will."
[> I suspect that Phantom
Dennis . . . -- d'Herblay, 21:19:58 07/22/03 Tue
. . . will have to rely on a lot of phantom voters. So far, his
support seems as insubstantial as he is.
[> Isn't Phantom Dennis
already Cordywhipped?????? -- Rufus, 21:27:24 07/22/03
Of course I didn't see Dennis pack up his unmentionables and haunt
[> Mine is the lonely (for
now) vote for Phantom Dennis -- Dead (but with a well-scrubbed
back) Soul, 21:49:59 07/22/03 Tue
Let's see where we are:
Cordy - suffering possible permanent vegitude after two seasons
of hairdo humiliation
Phantom Dennis - scrubbing the back of the next young starlet
who lucked into that gorgeous rent-controlled apartment.
He had the brains to steer clear of the turgid supernatural soap
opera and just watch it from the periphery. Much more entertaining
[> Sorry, Dennis, but we
went over this... -- Rob, 22:54:09 07/22/03 Tue
...Cordy is the biggest bitch in Sunnydale. She ain't afraid of
no ghosts. Before you'd be able to get in one blow, Cordy will
have you sobbing and shaking in the corner as she plays the Evita
soundtrack at top volume.
[> Poor Dennis -- KdS,
04:14:21 07/23/03 Wed
Dennis just walks away, unable to do anything to upset his eternal
love object. Isn't anyone else sorry for him after S4? Even Connor
gets a new family, poor Dennis is just left in that flat, forgotten
and alone. Sniff.
[> Re: Cordelia vs Phantom
Dennis -- MaeveRigan, 06:54:08 07/23/03 Wed
There's no contest here. Phantom Dennis concedes, he bows out,
he yields the field. Cordelia is his queen--he adores her. No
way he's going to fight her. Queen C graciously accepts his homage
and takes this round without ever having to strike a blow at Dennis's
[> No contest. (literally!)
-- Anneth, 10:45:08 07/23/03 Wed
One whithering look from Queen C'll send this poltergeist screaming
for the pearly gates, or wherever is furthest away from her. Of
course, Cordy knows that she captures more arrested adolescents
with honey than vinegar, so all she has to do is smile gently
and bat her eyelashes in his general direction. Or possibly glow
a little. Dennis will succumb to her charms and bow out gracefully,
leaving Cordelia the winner by gentle, loving default.
[> And now...a real fight!
-- Random, 11:08:21 07/23/03 Wed
After much in the way of long hard thought -- way too much, considering
that I no longer have many warm yummy feelings for either of these
two -- I hav decided to be bold, be trendily untrendy, and cast
a vote for the Phantom. The purple spandex may not be an aesthetic
wonder, but the imperialism hidden under a thin coat of modern
colonial sensitivity means he is backed by powerful forces of
evil. His condescension toward the indigenous people is made evident
in his "let me save you" heroic persona, and I feel
that...huh? What do you mean, it's a different Phantom? Which
one are you talki....oh, him! Heh, Cordy would kick his insubstantial
ass. Unfortunately, I already voted for the Phantom. Oh well,
my vote's not gonna count for much in this contest.
Angel. Scene 2: Cat's Don't Bathe. (by request from below)
-- Rochefort, 22:24:23 07/22/03 Tue
Scene 2 (scene 1 is in Angel/Spike poster post below)
Shot opens on Wesley. He is in a full body cat suit with painted
on whiskers and big fluffy feet. He is wearing his glasses and
holding his tail. He looks very Zoobalee Zoo.
Director: (voice over) Don't SAY meow. You have to DO meow.
(Camara pans to reveal a crowded stage in the theater district
of New York. Dancers are stretching their legs.)
Wesley: (looking frustrated. This has clearly been going on for
some time.) MEOW!
Director: (sighs) Look, Whyndam-Price, we've already demoted you
from Mr. Mestophelees to Cat #3. If you can't manage a real meow...
Wesley: No no, I'm sorry. I know I can do this. Please just give
me a chance. Meow. Meow. See it's getting better. Meow.
(A female dancer walks by in spandex. Clearly nobody else is dressed
in a cat suit.)
Dancer: Hey sweety, nice tail.
Wesley: (glancing at the dancer, he can't move his head that well)
Didn't anyone tell them I'm RUGGED now!? (then in response to
the director's heightened chagrin.) meow.
(Cut to Spike's apartment. It's very cool. He's moving around
the apartment making dinner, on the phone with:)
Buffy: You brought him INSIDE!?
Spike: I had to, pet. I think he's got mites again. He's yanking
out whole patches of his hair.
Buffy: But, Spike, (trying to not be too bugged by it) darling,
after I'm done touring the country being free and finding myself
and slaying vampires I'm going to LIVE in that apartment with
you. And now it's going to have bugs.
Spike: I thought you'd want me to, doll. Plus, I feel bad. I took
over his show. Maybe that has SOMEthing to do with the state he's
in. I wouldn't think you'd want me to just LEAVE him out there
with god knows what desiese. He was playing with Parker again.
Buffy: Oh gross.
(Angel comes walking into the kitchen. He opens the fridge and
stares into it blankly.)
Angel: Who's on the phone?
Buffy: Well at least could you keep him out in the garage?
Spike: Love, it's an eighteenth story apartment there's no...
(takes the butter away from Angel, but not before Angel takes
a big bite out of it, wrapper and all). O.k., yeah I'll keep him
in the garage. (Gives Angel a good kick)
Buffy: Is that him? Tell him I said hey.
Spike: Buffy says hey.
(Angel stops chewing his butter. He looks mournfully at Spike,
his mouth full, a bit of wrapper sticking out.)
Spike: Will I see you in Detroit tonight, love? It's a play off
Buffy: I'llll be there. It's not far from Cleveland. Hockey is
like ice-capades only... you with no shirt.
Spike: After the game, I can get us the whole rink baby. We can
make love on the ice.
Buffy: (we can hear her crinkle her nose, but giggle). You're
on the bottom. But you shouldn't talk that way in front of Angel.
You know how he is.
(Spike clearly doesn't. He looks at Angel.)
(Angel who has been digging in his ear, looks at his finger which
apparantly has mites on it. He stares intently at them, and then
Spike: Yeah...right, I know how he is. (covering the receiver)
XANDER! Give Angel a bath already.
(Xander walking in from the other room where he was watching t.v.)
Xander: Hey, I wanted to stake the guy a long time ago. Now he's
human, and it's too late to stake him, but that's not my fault.
YOU give him a bath.
Spike: I'm letting you stay in my apartment on my show.
Xander: Hey don't get all high and mighty. This is no Sunnydale,
and the second Willow gets HER own show, I'm going there anyway.
I mean there's nothing so great about being ....
Cordelia: (Off Screen) XANNNDER! Come make love to me!
(Spike raises his eyebrows. Xander starts to go, but Spike grabs
Angel by the collar and hands him to Xander. Xander holds his
Xander: Be right there, hon. Just gotta...wash Stink Guy.
Cordy: Oh you are NOT touching ME after you touch THAT thing.
Xander: (mumbling) Yeah well at least he doesn't have stretch
marks from having an alien baby.
Cordy: WHAT did you say!? WHAT did you say!? Xander Harris if
I wasn't TOTALLY in love with you again...
(Cordy follows Xander into the bathroom)
Buffy: What's going on? What's all the shouting?
Spike: Cordy is giving Angel a bath.
Buffy: Hm. Hey did you hear from Wesley? Willow says they demoted
him. I hope he's doing o.k.
Cut to New York:
Wesley: (taking large leaping dance steps across the stage his
tail flying behind him, and sounding like a kid firing a toy gun)
Meow! Meow! meowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeow! MEOw! Meow! MEOW!
Back to apartment:
Spike: Not that I'm not loving life here in L.A. like I've never
loved life before but...
Buffy: I know. We're not together.
Spike: I just wish you were ... you know, a baked cookie.
(Suddenly a little box that has been sitting by the cookie jar
that has a zig-zag door, bursts open to reveal the head of the
weird green guy with horns.)
Weird green guy with horns: Wish!? Did someone say WISH!?
Spike: Oh ....b-looody ell.
Buffy: Spike!? SPIKE! (she screams) I'm... I'm...I'm a...
Spike: (in a panic) I'll be right there, baby. (He hangs up)
(Suddenly Stink Guy comes running out of the bathroom naked with
patches of his own hair floating off him and bubble bath all over
him. He trips over the couch and falls hard on his face. Then
he runs out the door blindly.)
Spike: Oh bugger.
Willow: (Walking in from the hall) WHAT was THAT?
Spike: Stink Gu-- Angel ran off. (swelling suspenseful music)
And I've got to go to Cleveland. Buffy is a cookie.
[> Rochefort, you totally
rock!! Stud muffin, you!! -- deeva, 23:21:38 07/22/03 Tue
LOL! Don't stop there! This is so freakin' hilarious. It's so
good to see something like this after the weird twitchiness as
[> rofl rofl rofl! --
MsGiles, 02:07:56 07/23/03 Wed
[> This is starting to be
the first thing I look for in the mornings! -- Marie, 02:15:27
(And is that as sad as it sounds?) You know you have to do more,
don't you? Don't you?
-- Alison, 04:04:05 07/23/03 Wed
[> All this giggling is
destroying my surly work image! -- ponygirl, 08:34:40 07/23/03
[> Re: Next Season's Angel.
Scene 2: Cat's Don't Bathe. (by request from below) -- Rina,
09:20:29 07/23/03 Wed
THIS...IS...HILARIOUS!! I loved it! You are going to post it on
a fan fic site. Right?
[> Okay, this is completely
hilarious! Please do more. -- pellenaka, 14:39:16 07/23/03
[> Scene 3: Peeeeeople.
People Who Love Fish Sticks. -- Rochefort, 22:19:05 07/23/03
The Streets of L.A. Late Afternoon.
Angel suddenly runs onto the screen, naked and still carrying
remenants of bubble bath. Fast "running" music plays.
Angel trips and falls in some trash. The music stops. He is up
and running again as the "running" music re-begins.
He enters a more crowded pedestrian area. He is confused a moment
and covers his face at the sunshine, then runs on. A boy with
an ice cream cone pulls his mother's hand and points at Angel.
The woman looks too disgusted to even cover her child's eyes and
stands aghast. Angel reaches a stretch of grassy park. He runs
into it and, getting confused, begins to make large looping circles
in the park, running around trees and up and down the green. He
sniffs a tree and pees on it. He giggles and starts peeing everywhere.
(Cut to: Spike's Apartment)
Cordelia: Wait. You're saying Lorne is a head in a box and he
can grant any wish? When did this happen? How did this happen?
Xander: You were in a coma.
(Cordelia walks over to Lorne's box and picks it up and shakes
it. Lorne smiles up at her.)
Lorne: Hi Cordy!
Spike: Can we get going!? My girlfriend is a cookie, probably
some kid is ... eating chunks of her. We can hear about the weird
green guy in the box another time.
Cordy: So Buffy's face has chocolate chips. It's had worse. (To
Lorne) Oh my god, are you o.k.? What happened?
Lorne: It's a long story.
(Camara zooms in on Lorne, closer and closer as it cloudies and
(A demon with a battle axe approaches Lorne and slices off his
head. It falls on the ground with a thunk. The screen blurs again.)
(We see Spike in his kitchen. He puts Lorne's head in the box
with the zig-zag door. He sets it by the cookie jar and then looks
in the cabinet and pulls out wheeta-bix.)
Cordelia: (sarcastic) Woww. That is a really great story. So wait...
how come you can grant wishes?
Lorne: (With a big smile) I just can. But only one a day, Cordy.
So be careful how you use it.
Spike: (mumbling) Yeah or the stupid git will make your girlfriend
a cookie. Can we GO people!?
Cordy: Kay, let's get this straight. Don't have a girlfriend.
Not the one who's gay. I have Xander. I have a NORMAL love life.
(Camara on Xander who is digging in his own ear)
Xander: Can you catch mites from someone?
Cordy: Eeww, gross.
Willow: O.k., ignoring the "gay is not normal" comment,
if Buffy is a cookie, we have to do something.
Cordy: Can't we just unwish it tomorrow?
Spike: (getting angry) We're all missing the point here! I love
this woman! (passionate music begins to swell) We have a complicated
adult relationship that doesn't require sex. I burnt myself into
a little pile of ash for her, and I'd do it again, too. She could
be cookie dough forever and it wouldn't change that ... she could
be... she could rejoin the show played by a different actress
... even Heather Grahm. And I'd... still.... love her.
Xander: Don't you remember when you thought I was a fish, hon?
Cordy: Oh Xander! I love you! (she gives him a big hug and a kiss.)
I'd love you if you were a fish STICK.
(Xander is pleased)
Willow: (in total sweet Willow way) Everybody's changin into lovable
food but me.
Xander: O.k. then. We go to Cleveland.
Cordy: Right. I'll pack my bags.
Xander: I'll call the airport.
Willow: (To Spike) You'd love her if she was Heather Grahm?
Spike: Well. Maybe not then. But a lot of other actresses.
Willow: Barbara Streisand?
(Camara zooms in on Spike's face. He is thinking. We see Barbara
Streisand in a long blue ball gown in a cemetary. A vampire pops
out. She puts her hand to her chest, fingers spread and looks
shocked or vaclempt. Then she starts doing flips and karate kicks)
Spike: (shakes his head) Well. Maybe not then.
Willow: (sweet pouty Willow) Doesn't sound like such a great amazing
love to me.
Spike: (sighs) Fine. If Sarah Michelle Gellar quit, and they hired
Barbara Streisand to be Buffy, then I'd quit too. And they'd hire
Sean Connery to play Spike. Then... (smug) I'd still love her.
Only I'd be him.
(Camara zooms in on Willow's head. We see Sean Connery in the
Bronze dressed in a long black leather jacket with a red shirt
on, only it has ruffles like he had at the Oscars. His head is
colored in squiggly scribbles with a yellow magic marker and his
cheek bones are hollowed with make up.)
Connery-Spike: (looking smoldering) Shumahs, Cahnt you shee I've
got a shoul? Ahm drownin in you, Shummahs. Ahm drownin in ya.
Willow: hee hee. O.k., it's a great love.
Spike: Bloody right it is.
[> [> Memo re: Scene
3: I like your script, but if you could just make a few changes...
-- Celebaelin, 02:10:52 07/24/03 Thu
A poll taken by the VP (Public Relations) suggests Lorne's head
should be kept in an accordian case. Choice of colour and how
much mention of this is made is of course entirely up to you.
It is critical in terms of sponsorship that we establish exactly
what kind of cookie Buffy has become in this scene. There is heavy
leaning towards chocolate chip obviously but the branding is equally
important. Will get back to you.
Similarly re fish sticks. Surely a missed opportunity here? Is
Cordy implying that she wouldn't mind if Xander became crumby
or that she wants to see him battered? The fans will want to know.
Particularly those on a certain pain in the posterior website.
Willow should make some cultural reference to her name. Tree or
Chinese ceramic orientated alusions are preferred but after her
time in England a cricket bat reference is also possible. Would
like to suggest the substitution of the words 'foodstuffs', 'food
items' or 'snack foods' and 'except'.
Streisand and Connery cameos have fallen through. This must be
re-worked for Barbara Bush and Billy Connely.
[> [> [> the changes
you requested. But the network is o.k. with the peeing? --
Rochefort, 10:12:39 07/24/03 Thu
(We see Spike in the kitchen, putting Lorne's head in a blue accordian
case next to the cookie jar. Then getting the Wheetabix.)
note to editor: I envisioned the box as looking just like Jambi's
from Pee Wee Herman. Can the accordian case still look like Jambi's
box? Also, let me know about the cookie branding. There will obviously
be more cookie-buffy.
Cordy: Oh Xander I love you! (she gives him a big kiss and hug)
I'd love you even if you were a fish stick. A crumby battered
greasy fish stick.
Willow: O.k., ignoring the "gay is not normal" remark,
I am a Chinese ceramic tree.
Addition (hope this is o.k.):
Willow: Everybody is turning into lovable snack foods cept me.
note to editor: I know who Barbara Bush is and that is managable
and a lot of fun. But who is Connely? Is he a baseball coach?
[> [> [> [> It
never rains... -- Celebaelin, 03:10:26 07/25/03 Fri
As long as any verbal indication as to the nature of the box states
that it is an accordian case it can look pretty much like anything
Some good news, Amalgamated Muffin and Buscuit are showing a strong
interest. Their product range is extensive and their pocket is
Xander needs a comeback re the fish sticks or the monocular rights
activists will accuse the network of equating unilateral visual
impairment with a lack of sense of humour.
Are fish stick metaphors in some form going to be a recurring
theme? If so there are further commercial possibilities.
I am a Chinese ceramic tree with bats in my belfry.
I am struck by the potential of the words 'comfort food' in the
Willow idiom. This would be further indication of a greater distance
between Xander and Willow. How do you feel on the matter?
Billy Connolly is a Scottish comedian who played John Brown to
Dame Judy Dench's Queen Victoria in the Britfilm Mrs Brown. It
will be a challenge to explain how Spike has grown a foot or so
and aquired a Glaswegian accent but we're counting on you.
[> [> Connery-Spike is
EVIIIILLLLL! hee hee!! Please, may I have more? -- deeva,
I think I'm addicted to this now., 10:19:24 07/24/03 Thu
-- Tchaikovsky, 05:49:08 07/23/03 Wed
To Kenny, Abby, KdS, yabyumpan and Rahael
This is the Night Mail, crossing the border
Bringing the cheque and the postal order
Time now spent
Pass the workers
Hived like bees
Pass the plain
The waving trees.
Lose the platform
Find the place
Where one can go
Now as we move on
Clicking and clacking
Inside the carriage
Posting and packing.
Passing through cultures
Flying like switches
Faster than fairies
Faster than witches.
Just like the land
That's flying on through
What may come next will
Fanfare the new.
Flares of new people
New as the clocks on the
Finding the links that can
Hold us together.
Finding the capital's
Nicest of weather.
Cool like a lake
Accepting a diver
Or like a taxi-cab
Before a driver.
Wiltshire and Hampshire
And Berkshire and sky.
The Oval still passes
Dreaming of Bradman
In nostlagia's glasses.
End of the day.
Here's the platform
New and wrong.
End of the day.
Sweet Thames run softly, till I end my song
And so, as evening softens on the wall
I find myself again where dreams are made.
At least for in my head. The ebullient call,
Of London to its blurred inhabitants
That time is not for keeping coiled away
Seems never to affect me, for where they
Are hurried through their baguettes to their homes
I dawdle, dwindling evening to a pocket.
Here memories coexist, and coalesce
Until I see the contradiction, Lord's
With mouth of Space Age yet pavilion's style
So eighteenth-century, with stolid pride.
And Tate, assuredly modern, next to span
Uncertain bridge not sure of century's weight
For other side lives questioning St Paul's.
While ever knowing- never quite forgives.
The streets darken a little- Monet leaves
And something more Picassian takes the stage
The Barbican presents what it decides
While London shows us everything we know.
Half-eaten sandwiches, a taxi-cab,
The Thames, still sparkling, ever to connect-
Wordsworth, thou shouldst be living at this hour!
Like strains of half-forgotten antiphons
Without reply for now- and yet- Old songs.
Meandering like a needle through a cloth
I, less than sharp but full of new directions
Defect from Southern London's brooding style
To businessmen and universal bars.
Still leafy, thinks the wind, which passes through
Still incorporeal to do its bidding
I slump, observe, pretend I can't affect.
But soon I shall be curled inside a group
That modern webs have binded gossamer tight
And rage against the dying of the light.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo
'Am I in the right place?' 'Probably Tchai-
kovsky?' Relieved they find a smiling I
Laconic. All these people gathered in
And just for talking. Listening a sin?
I know the answer's no, St Paul's reminds
And so the small talk casually grinds.
Although we know each other's selves from selves
And posted dozens, scores, in twenties, twelves
Although each one of us might understand
A film of custard skin lies, as if pre-planned
An hour quick burns the distance right away
Until extinguished evening ends the day.
The table, circular, admits no King
A democratic, social kind of thing.
Each person sometimes mumbles in their way
Then lets the other dogs all have their day.
The food, Italian, bubbles with good grace
The water flows, wine sometimes in its place.
The conversation turns quite soon to stories
of mythic people- magic allegories
Through which the group can find the webs it weaves
The friendship made, and threatened and reprieved.
Little invective flows, a bubbling brook
Is easier to swim than overlook.
Electric light slows the impending dusk
The smell of caramel, and cars and musk
The ever-scented etheris-ed evening
Allows us all to follow where it's leading.
There's laughter, grace, articulate viveurs
Disgruntlement and loss, both howls and purrs
Strangely coherent to our very end
An aria that 144 could send
To sleep. And finally, as night grows long.
We move from our old table, show, and song.
Moon River, wider than a mile
So what of this life? This thing which may
Be flowing, to an estuary of some kind.
It's not a Mississippi. Whereever I'm going
Is some place else. Neither a Thames. Invested
With a history I half-understand. Losing
an ium from Italians, yet still full of
Pasta and hospitality.
How can we weave webs across the world if we
Are a river. Perhaps we are a maze. Or our life is.
One with no centre. Sometimes we are
Deceptively close to people. Other times
Lifetimes away. Our paths diverge, interplay
Distinct, confused, doubling back.
Eventually, one day, with the sound of the
Dreaded, haunted crickets- we find our exit- of
Relief and release and completion and pointlessness.
While we find people in our maze, spun together
By the maze's web itself, we should value it.
Repeat those old songs, complemented with new ones.
Hum ourselves to sleep, to life, to death.
For what is Weetabix and orange juice and
Suspicious cats if not a fabric, uncreosoted-
Yet real. A method of sharing a path that we must take
Alone. We can share power, we can share ourselves
But we must find our journey ourselves.
Not just a train, or a wander through a dream
Or a metaphor in a cafe. A life-dream
Whole. Through the slow burns of hot days
The cool of the evening's divers. And all of it.
Fragmented, nearly headless. Transitory.
Cliched. Repetitive. But ever new. Like
Rerolled dough with enough stretch for another
Mince Pie. Christmas and Summer. Life and Death.
Angels. Here's a place to start:
[> Lovely. Will reread
-- KdS, 06:06:03 07/23/03 Wed
[> What an honour! --
Rahael, 07:24:19 07/23/03 Wed
[> You've got my vote for
official board bard! Lovely stuff! -- ponygirl, 08:14:27
[> [> ...and your poetry
will never be barred from the board! -- anom, 11:07:01
Well, that's not official till Masq says it, but I can't imagine
I said it once before: now you know--do post your poems! (Hey,
does that mean I can take any credit for the appearance of this
one? Nah...you said earlier than that that you were gonna post
it...well, I tried.)
[> [> [> You can take
some credit :-) -- Tchaikovsky, 02:53:40 07/24/03 Thu
I was thinking about posting it elsewhere until your post.
[> That was amazing!
-- WickedBuffy, 08:32:34 07/23/03 Wed
[> Beautiful, thank you
:o) -- yabyumpan (&Pan), 08:39:33 07/23/03 Wed
[> [> LOL. I thought
Pan might come round if I put him in! -- TCH, 08:56:23
[> [> [> PURRRRR,
PURRRRR, SUGGLE SNUGGLE -- Pan ;o), 09:16:39 07/23/03 Wed
[> Wonderful, TCH --
Arethusa, 09:29:27 07/23/03 Wed
You make an amazing experience even richer with your luminous
posts. (William would be so envious. ;))
[> Beautiful! And speaking
of the Tate... -- Rob, 10:26:04 07/23/03 Wed
...am I the only one who thinks the sliding glass doors should
be a bit more distinguishable from the wall around them? I had
the most embarassing and physically painful experience of my vacation
two years back when I walked into one of the walls, thinking
it was an open door. Oof!
[> [> And you know what
all the people around you were thinking -- Tchaikovsky, 02:52:24
Poor Rob! I have to say that I didn't have that experience. I
had the greatest of times at the Matisse Picasso exhibition. I
don't really know anything about visual art, but their paintings
blew me away. In particular, there was a painting, (someone here
will know it) painted by Picasso shortly after Matisse's death.
It was a characteristic Matisse-ian painting- but with all the
colour drained out of it, leaving only greys, blacks and the odd
fleck of brown. It was a moving requiem form one great artist
to another, and I spent ages thinking about death.
Then I went to the cafe and started complaining about the price
of the cakes. You know, I should really get my abstract and practical
minds to mesh a bit more- I might worry less about tiny things...
[> [> [> Re: And you
know what all the people around you were thinking -- Rob,
09:29:13 07/24/03 Thu
LOL! Believe me, that was definitely on my mind, as I stumbled
back from the wall with cartoon birds circling around my head
and at least 8 people around me stopping dead in their tracks.
My friend wouldn't even look me in the face, instead attempting
a casual aloofness to project the notion that we had never met.
Compassionate guy that he is, my protestations that, "Hey!
I'm the one in incredible pain here!" didn't yield any response
from him besides eye-rolling. Therefore, although I have a vague
recollection of seeing some beautiful artwork in the two hours
I spent at the Tate, I could not for the life of me tell you what
I saw. It all seems to be dulled by the memory of throbbing pain
and red-faced embarassment. Oh, wait, I do remember a sculpture
of a human leg sticking out of a white wall. I hope!
And I dimly recall purchasing two blank journals. That, of course,
is only because I have them at home.
I remember the Dali Universe exhibition (which, I believe, had
just opened recently) at the County Hall Gallery with much greater
clarity. I spent hours there, taking in all the bizarre yet strangely
understandable juxtapositions of form and object. I particularly
loved The Snail and the Angel sculpture. The entire structure
of the gallery itself made me feel like I was inside a surrealist
painting...Wonderful place. I bought an (overpriced) book in the
Come to think of it, I went through both museums in a daze. Only
one of them, however, was the good kind. ;o)
[> Loved it. flows so well
esp part I (my fave) (NT) -- btvsk8, 15:03:46 07/23/03
[> [> Interesting
-- Tchaikovsky, 02:45:58 07/24/03 Thu
Part Four is my favourite, because for me personally (and of course,
authorial intent is highly over-rated) it's when I start being
honest about two things. Firstly, the journey isn't just the train
journey or the journey across London or even Buffy's journey,
but my own. And secondly, the scheme of the first one is highly
deliberate, in the second one I try to be Eliot, and in the third
one the rhyming couplets are a little bit too binding.
Thanks, and thanks to everyone else- you're all too kind!
[> Epic event! Hey, so sorry
I missed it :( -- MsGiles, 03:10:43 07/24/03 Thu
alcohol -- meritaten, 01:51:06 07/23/03 Wed
I recently noticed as I watched the tapes of S4 that Lorne almost
always has a drink in his hand. Perhaps the fact that I watched
this season in just a couple of sitting made this more noticeable?
Anyway, I was curious if others had noticed this and read anything
from it? It is not as if Lorne has been depicted as an alcoholic
(ie, with the associated behavioral issues), but it can't be accidental
that he is (almost) always shown with a drink to his lips. Any
ideas on what the authors are saying? I had previously thought
that the alcohol was a part of his whole Caritos (sorry, can't
remember the spelling) image, but now I am wondering.....
[> I think in one episode
-- KdS, 04:17:31 07/23/03 Wed
They said that alcohol has no effect on him (forgot which ep,
fairly early), so they must have been aware of the possible interpretations
and wanted to step on them. Maybe he just likes the flavour.
[> [> Re: I think in
one episode -- ponygirl, 08:21:08 07/23/03 Wed
I thought it very telling, if I'm not mistaken, that when Lorne
found out the truth about Jasmine he took a drink. It supports
the idea that he is getting something from alcohol. Comfort? Support
for his self-image as the detached commentator on the proceedings?
[> [> [> I think that
was the moment .... -- meritaten, 20:55:46 07/23/03 Wed
that I realized he always had a drink in his hand. THen I rewatched
the tapes, and sure enough....
[> Re: Lorne and alcohol
-- Diana, 05:15:31 07/23/03 Wed
Angel is modeled after a recovering alcoholic. In one scene, I
really forget which episode, Lorne mentions that he wishes he
could get drunk. Even though we tend to see Lorne with a drink
in his hand, it doesn't seem to affect him. His Pylean biology,
which puts his heart in his ass, doesn't allow him to get drunk.
Angel is an incredibly perceptive guy. He couldn't do the things
he does as Angelus if he wasn't. This season, with Angelus in
a cage, we saw that Angel wasn't as clueless about what was going
on around him as we thought.
Lorne represents this trait of Angel. Angel tends to only use
it when he falls off the wagon when he becomes Angelus. I believe
that is why we always see Lorne drinking. The interesting question
becomes why doesn't Angel exhibit this trait when he is souled.
I believe that Lorne can't get drunk is important to answering
this. I also believe that season 5 Angel will exhibit this trait
[> [> Re: Lorne and alcohol
-- meritaten, 21:10:26 07/23/03 Wed
"Lorne represents this trait of Angel. Angel tends to
only use it when he falls off the wagon when he becomes Angelus.
I believe that is why we always see Lorne drinking. The interesting
question becomes why doesn't Angel exhibit this trait when he
is souled. I believe that Lorne can't get drunk is important to
answering this. I also believe that season 5 Angel will exhibit
this trait more."
Interesting, but I'm not sure that I really understand what you
mean. Could you explain this thought a little more? I'm a bit
fuzzy on what exactly you mean by "this trait".
It seems that we got a look at everyone's dark side this season
- except for Lorne (unless you count his being fooled into that
evil job in Vegas). I guess I was wondering if this was was pointing
to a darkness within him.
[> [> [> Interesting
note -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:46:35 07/23/03 Wed
The only people who didn't commit murder or act as accomplices
to murder this season were the demons: Angel and Lorne. To quote
"Who ever thought the humans would be the most corruptible?"
[> [> [> [> Re:
Interesting note -- meritaten, 22:50:52 07/23/03 Wed
Hmmm... hadn't thoguht of it that way.
Refresh my memory, who did Wes kill? I can think of lots of dark
acts, but can't recall any dead bodies (other than vamps and demons).
[> [> [> [> [>
I think Finn is referring to Seidel -- Scroll, 00:07:47
Wesley aided and abetted Fred in her vengeance kick against Seidel.
So even though Wesley didn't actually kill Seidel, his actions
led to Fred trying to kill Seidel, which then led to Gunn
actually killing Seidel. Does that make sense?
And I like the idea that Lorne's drinking is a nod to the 'Angel
as recovering drunk' metaphor. I just don't know how consistent
the parallels are, though. Anyone remember if Lorne ever drinks
anything while Angel is gone and Angelus is running around? Cuz
if the metaphor/parallel holds true then Lorne should only be
drinking when Angel is ensouled. That make sense? It's 3 am and
I'm not sure what I'm talking about anymore!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I think Finn is referring to Seidel -- meritaten,
02:03:28 07/24/03 Thu
thanks. I'd forgotten Wes was in on that.
I'll have to watch the tapes again to see if Lorne is drinking
while Angelus is around.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Or, if you look at it this way: -- Finn Mac
Cool, 11:54:05 07/24/03 Thu
The only character on the show in Season 4 who never killed anyone
or was a party to killing anyone was Lorne, the only one who actually
looks like a demon.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> true -- meritaten, 16:07:34 07/24/03
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Interestingly, enough... -- LittleBit, 09:00:08
Lorne has a glass in his hand immediately following the return
of Angelus when they are all in the office watching Wes put the
soul in the safe. The only other time he has a glass of anything
in his hand while Angelus is there is when Fred gives him what
appears to be iced tea after Angelus knocked him out.
[> [> [> [> But
then again..... -- meritaten, 23:01:25 07/23/03 Wed
Angel's dark side - ie, Angelus - is something we've always been
aware of. And, Angelus did make an appearance and certainly added
some bodies to his count. Interestingly, Angelus seemed to be
used to bring into the open (to the others within the show) the
dark deeds of Angel's team. (Forgive me if I got that wrong, that
episode had badly garbled sound on my tape, and I can't hear worth
a damn to begin with. I had to guess at most of the dialogue.)
Did he have anything to say about Lorne? While I think your idea
that Lorne and Angel may be intentionally treated in opposition
to humans is interesting, I'm not entirely convinced that is the
only reason Lorne's dark side wasn't shown. Besides, Conner and
Cordy are both part-demon, and they killed.
[> [> Re: Lorne and alcohol--Spoilers
for Home. -- Arethusa, 08:15:47 07/24/03 Thu
I don't understand. Are you saying Lorne personifies Angel's perceptiveness?
When we see Lorne with a drink, that means Angel is being perceptive,
but we can't see it because only Angelus is being portrayed as
perceptive? Or when we see Lorne with a drink we are supposed
to remember that Angel is really perceptive, he just doesn't seem
to be? Perhaps you could list the times Lorne held a drink when
Angel was being perceptive but not seeming to be perceptive. And
how can Angelus be perceptive and Angel not be, when they are
the same person? (And is ME sending the message that only evil
people or drunks can be perceptive?)
Do you think Angel will be more perceptive next year? Why? How
will this fit in with the inevitable moral conflicts within W&H?
[> [> [> Clarification
as requested -- Diana, 09:43:58 07/24/03 Thu
In order to be able to seduce or hurt someone, you have to be
perceptive. Spike is seen as Mr. Perspective Guy (and this isn't
a slam on him, so save the flames), but to me what is important
is that as Angel's foil, why Spike is perceptive and why Angel
doesn't seem to be.
Recently I have begun to explore the various voices of the characters
and how the writers use the secondary and tertiary characters
not only to move the plot along, but to show what is going on
inside of Angel. This was done exceedingly well in "Calvary"
and "Sacrifice." We have heart-mind-spirit shown by
Fred-Wes-Gunn, but they aren't the only other characters. Lorne
is a player now, too.
Lorne's character's job is to read others. Angel CAN do this.
We saw him do is exceedingly well as Angelus this season. Why
doesn't he? When someone drinks, he loses his inhibitions. It
is these inhibitions (which we can discuss) that keep Angel from
reading others. Lorne represents this ability of Angel to read
others that Angel is unable to access because of his inhibitions.
Lorne doesn't have those inhibitions because of the drink in his
When Lorne says something, Angel is saying that somewhere deep
inside. He doesn't want to admit it or he doesn't even realize
it for whatever reason, but it is something he realizes on some
level. He can't access that because he is afraid of falling off
the wagon. I tried to illustrate this when I explained why I think
he is so silent.
An interesting thing about "Home" is when Lorne is in
the limo, he is talking about drinking. Angel has to lose his
inhibitions in order to go in the first place. Whenever Angel
has something really hard to face, Lorne brings up drinking. He'll
talk to his bar tender or take a drink himself. Lorne uses alcohol
to relax, which shows us that Angel needs to relax in order to
But alcohol doesn't just relax us. It makes us drunk. Think back
to "Eternity." Angel relaxed, good. Angel drunk/high,
seriously bad. Angel has figured out a lot and is a lot more relaxed.
I can see this creating a false sense of security that WKCS is
needed to balance. It will be this false sense of security that
Angel gets by losing his inhibitions that will lead to whatever
corruption he has to momentarily circumb to.
Just as Angelus became overconfident in his perceptions S2 of
BtVS and that led to his downfall, I see a similar thing happening
S5 of AtS. Fine line between tipsy and drunk. There is a reason
Angel is so scared of it.
As for Lorne's dark side, closest thing we have really seen of
that is his cowardice S2 with the Pylean arc. Next season, as
Angel's perception misleads him, I would say that Lorne will face
something similar. "I know what you represent, evil...which
happens to be just about everyone I ever wanted to meet."
Just what I see. Hopefully when I go more into how the various
characters mirror Angel and why they are so different from Buffy's
mirrors, this will all make more sense.
[> [> [> [> Very
interesting stuff, Diana! -- Scroll, 10:05:39 07/24/03
I never considered it like that before, Lorne being a shadow-self
of Angel via his drinking and dulling of his perception and "wit"
:) Much to think on...
[> [> [> [> [>
ditto -- meritaten, 16:30:07 07/24/03 Thu
I can't wait to rewatch this season with this in mind.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Clarification as requested -- Arethusa, 20:18:25 07/24/03
What are Angel's inhibitions, and why do they keep him from reading
others? Why would Angel need inhibitions to keep himself from
reading others-being perceptive?
[> [> [> [> [>
Hmm, not sure I can answer but I'll try -- Scroll, 21:53:05
What are Angel's inhibitions, and why do they keep him from reading
others? Why would Angel need inhibitions to keep himself from
reading others-being perceptive?
I think we can safely say that Angel is definitely more inhibited
than Angelus. I'm not sure what it is exactly that holds Angel
back; I think it's a combination of being a vampire among humans,
being a vampire burdened with a soul and still feeling guilt,
being unable to break away from the emotions and sheer weight
of his history that comes from having a soul. Angelus is free
in ways Angel can never be: free to have fun, free to go with
his passions, free to be cruel and psychologically manipulative.
Angel clearly does notice things -- he knew all along that
Fred and Gunn had killed Seidel, though we the audience assumed
until "Calvary" that he was totally ignorant of this
crime. But really, Angel perceived their guilt, the reason for
it, and even the actual murderer (Gunn). But because of his soul,
he never really examines the facts and tiny details he
picks up. He's too caught up in "life" and being friends
with these humans around him to string everything together in
an instant, the way Angelus can.
In the same way, Angel should have noticed the fact that
Cordelia was not Cordelia, that she was behaving in strange ways
that "disorientation/depression from leaving a higher plane"
really didn't explain. But he was so bound up in his emotions,
love and guilt and anger, that he couldn't see the trap
being laid right in front of him. Of course, Angelus didn't see
it all either, but he had a few more clues than Angel did.
Okay, now here's where I get kinda confusing. I think that the
part of Angel that is still Angelus had already figured out Gunn
killing Seidel way back in "Supersymmetry". I think
Angel probably even consciously knew (not just subconsciously)
that Gunn had killed Seidel. But Angel keeps himself separate
enough from that cold, analytical, soulless part of him (Angelus)
that he won't "acknowledge" Gunn's actions to himself.
In that way, I think Angel is "less perceptive". I don't
know if this makes much sense, sorry! I know I'm not explaining
it well. I guess this comes down to Rob's (or was it Rufus'?)
idea that Angel really does have a split personality. An idea
I don't normally subscribe to, but one which I think helps explain
Angel's ability to "consciously know" these hard, cold,
horrible thoughts (like that his friend is capable of murder)
but still not "acknowledge" them.
After his soul is restored, Angel retains a little of that Angelus
distance that allows him to finally put together all the pieces
-- leading to him to finger Evil!Cordelia as the power manipulating
them all. Angel needed that detachment Angelus brings, to step
away from the mess of emotions that comes part and parcel with
the soul, in order to see things clearly at last.
Whew! Okay, I have no idea if this is what Diana is talking about.
I could be completely off base from what she's trying to say.
I didn't even talk anything about drinking and/or losing inhibitions.
This was just something I thought of this minute and wanted to
try to make sense in my own head. Did it come through to you?
Let me know, cuz I think I'm completely lost myself!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I agree. -- Arethusa, 07:36:57 07/25/03 Fri
You make a lot of sense! I agree that Angel won't let himself
think about the negative behavior he sees in his friends, any
more than he will fully acknowledge the evil he's done. Therefore
he seems to have developed a split personality, since he has so
thoroughly distanced himself from his evil deeds.
What I don't understand is the correlation Diana makes between
being perceptive and being evil. Angel knows that the only way
he'll become Angelus is by having a moment of bliss. Thinking
bad or negative thoughts about others won't make him evil unless
Angel himself is such a rotten person that he will emotionally
eviscerate his friends if he acknowledges to hiimself that they
do bad things. Diana has said before that Angel has a very strong
(positive) moral compass, so I don't see why he would worry about
losing his inhibitions as Angel.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Angel's inhibitions -- Diana, 10:27:59 07/25/03
I'm trying to figure out how to put what I see as key to this
interesting character. I feel they gave us the Angelus arc in
order to show us this trait. I will admit up front that I'm sure
there is a heck of lot of projection going on in my analyses of
Angel. If I didn't identify with him so strongly, he wouldn't
captivate me like he does. Still feel free to tell me I'm full
of shit :-)
For me, the key to Angel/us was given in "Release."
I know how it feels-forced to be someone you're not. Hurts
to the bone. You try to bury the pain, but you can't get the hole
deep enough, can you? No matter how much you dig, it's still there.
Broken shards stabbing every time you breathe, cutting you up
inside. You know, there's only one way to make the pain stop.
Hurt someone else.
That is probably where the title came from. The line could just
as easily have been there's only one way to release the pain.
So we have Liam/Angel/us who is this creature in intense pain.
As human, Liam buries that pain with wine, women and fistacuffs.
As a soulless vampire, he deals with it by "hurt[ing] someone
else." That really shows well in the vamping of Drusilla.
As a soulled vampire, his conscience won't let him do this. Instead
he learns that there is another way to stop the pain, reach out
But we have seen Angel lash out. He is really good at yelling
at Buffy and pushing her buttons. The perception that allows him
to understand and help her lets him also hurt her. He does this
by calling her a brat in "Graduation Day Part 1." He
knows just how to cut her in "Sanctuary." That isn't
even going into the whole Angelus stuff from s2 of BtVS.
That is just Buffy. Angel tried to kill Wesley season 3. Even
though intellectually he knew that Wes didn't mean to hurt anyone
and was only doing what he thought best, Angel was hurting to
the bone and lashed out rather violently. Can you imagine how
scared Angel was this season of hurting either his son or Cordy?
While on Wes' boat and still hallucinating, he tells Connor-hallucination
that he should have killed him.
If Angel isn't perceptive, he can't use that perception to hurt
people. There is another side also. With great power comes great
responsibility. The ability to read others is a great power. Angel
knew what was going on with Gunn/Fred/Wesley. What could he do
about this? His friends are hurting and he can't do anything about
it. That causes him even more pain. Just as Buffy tried to turn
a blind eye to the world's pain season 6 and hated having power,
Angel is in a similar boat.
That is perception of others. Because he has a soul, he doesn't
want to hurt them and doesn't want to see them hurting, so he
tries to bury his perception. That is where a lot of his inhibitions
Then there is himself. Lorne is introduced the season that is
all about Angel's epiphany. The Pylean Arc, which takes Lorne
home so that he has to deal with his past, is what allows Angel
to face the pure form of his demon. Angel's lack of perception
seems to be most glaring when it comes to himself. Honestly is
sucks to be self-perceptive. You know why you hurt, but there
isn't a whole lot you can do about it. It is like looking up at
some huge mountain. Self-perception says, "There is a mountain
in front of you." It still doesn't say how to climb it and
climbing it is a real bitch.
Without a soul, Angel has no desire to really climb that mountain.
He lives totally in the moment. He is Id boy. Id boy knows he
is Id boy and loves every moment of it. Put back the soul and
knowing you are Id boy sucks. Why would you want to see that?
You don't want to be Id boy. I dealt with this more in the Angel
as Frat Boy part of my random thoughts thread.
In "Orpheus" Angelus taunts Angel by saying "Always
so concerned with the human condition. (throws Angel down the
alley) It's no big mystery, man. They suffer, they die. That's
what they're there for." Angelus (and Spike's) perception
is not complete because he doesn't understand somethings. There
is more to the human condition than what Angelus says, but he
can't see that. What Angel is trying to do with Faith is that
something more. That something more is what causes Angel's inhibitions
when it comes to being able to read people, act or speak.
Angel wants to help people. Even though his perception both of
himself and of others would allow him to do this better, it is
a double edged sword, one he is reluctant to pick up.
Hope that made some modicum of sense.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I understand what you're getting at, and agree.
-- Arethusa, 11:01:11 07/25/03 Fri
That's why your earlier statements about Angel's strong moral
compass and big, pure heart confused me. If Angel was chosen by
TPTB because of his Champion heart, he wouldn't be the sort of
person who has to constantly guard himself from doing and saying
bad things-at least that is my interpretation. YMMV.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> More to us than our heart, though --
Diana, 11:21:39 07/25/03 Fri
I tried to explain this in Angel as Frat Boy.
His strong moral compass lets him know what is right and makes
him feel bad when he does bad things. It isn't the only thing
though. He is still Id boy on some level. Angelus is just Id boy.
Angel is Id boy and Champion Heart. It is the conflict of these
that drives the story. It is the conflict of these that causes
him to constantly guard himself both from being hurt and from
Angel CURRENTLY is the sort of person that has to constantly guard
himself. As the series progresses, he has to guard himself less
and less. That to me is what the series is about. The PTBs have
been shaping him into something based on his Champion's heart.
They are helping him overcome Id boy. Instead of lashing out,
he reaches out. It really is a beautiful story.
Just how I see it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> random thoughts that came as I read these posts...
-- meritaten, 00:27:26 07/26/03 Sat
As I have been readings these posts, two things have occurred
to me. I'm basically throwing them out before thinking them through,
1. What to do with information when you are dysfunctional...?
I've seen two approaches (not saying there aren't more, but this
has been my experience). You either use the information to hurt
people or you go into denial. Yes, my own family's dysfunctional
patterns are what I'm basing this on. My mother would use whatever
she knew to hurt the people around her when they displeased her
(actions she learned from her alcoholic father, I assume). My
father pretended nothing was happening - about the original information
and about my mother's actions. Perhaps Angel and Angelus operate
on these two extremes?
2. Previous excesses might lead to later repression? Knowing that
you have the tendency (or potential?) to act in an extreme fashion
might cause one to try to bury or deny those things that might
be taken to an extreme in order not to make the same mistakes
again. I know this isn't well expressed. For those who are DS9
fans, this reminds me of an episode that explained why Whorf was
so repressed despite his being a Klingon. As a child, living amoung
humans, he made a mistake. He was playing football, or some other
contact sport, and got absorbed in the game, forgetting that he
was stronger and less easily broken than his human friends. There
was an accident and his friend was killed. Whorf had barely felt
the impact, but this impact had killed his friend. THe lesson
he learned from that was that he must always be careful, because
the slightest miscalculation on his part could cause severe damage
to others. Perhaps Angel is aware of how much hurt he can inflict
when he acknowledges information? If he is afraid of hurting with
this knowledge, perhaps he choses to deny its existence?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Excellent points, very much agree --
Scroll, 06:35:06 07/26/03 Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> I agree too; good post.. -- Arethusa,
07:14:13 07/26/03 Sat
I think you're very right on how Angel handles the problems of
others. Angel tries to ignore them, perhaps hoping they'll just
go away. Just as Willow always tried to run away from or smooth
over painful discussions, such as in Selfless when Buffy reminded
Xander she had to kill Angel. Angelus, of course, is an SOB who
uses his ammunition when it can hurt the most.
And yes, Angel is still a vampire, with the bloodlust and violent
tendencies, including aggressiveness. And since his father's weapon
of choice appeared to be his words, Angel often does the same.
I wanted to point out to Diana that her view of Angel as good-hearted
to the point of being favored by the gods, contradicted her statement
that Angel consistantly had to repress his agressive and cruel
side. Angel is both.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: I agree too; good post.. --
Diana, 10:22:25 07/26/03 Sat
I wanted to point out to Diana that her view of Angel as good-hearted
to the point of being favored by the gods, contradicted her statement
that Angel consistantly had to repress his agressive and cruel
side. Angel is both.
I have never denied Angel's Id side. Angel's heart is huge, just
like Buffy's, which is WHY he hurts so much. If Angel didn't have
champion heart, to the point where the PTB are interested in him,
he wouldn't worry so much about hurting others and he wouldn't
be hurt by the pain that surrounds him. Buffy and Angel's love
(and I mean in general, not just for each other) is brighter than
the fire. Not so with Wesley, Giles etc. It is this that makes
them into heros. Just because I talk about his heart a lot doesn't
mean that I don't see the rest of him.
One of my first posts here was about this sacred heart. I have
compared his path to that of a Bodhisattva. If he didn't have
a darker side, he wouldn't be on the path. He would be there.
And I wouldn't say he "Constantly" has to repress this
side. As the show progresses, he has to supress it less and less
because he is replacing the need to lash out with the desire to
reach out. Angel is a bit more than just two sides in conflict.
At least the Angel I see is.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Last post on this-I promise!.
-- Arethusa, 12:21:30 07/26/03 Sat
Angel is an anti-hero. That is canon, from both Whedon
At the 18th Paley TV Festival,Whedon said ..."we came up
with the idea of redemption, of alcoholism as a metaphor. As sort
of a period in your life where instead of coming up in the world
as Buffy is, you're sort of in the world and you realize that
you've done a bunch of incredibly stupid things in it. Once we
realized we had that metaphor to work with then we knew we had
an actual show to go around this charismatic character."
Angel's a guy who's thoroughly messed up his life, and now is
trying to set things right. Yes, he's a hero, but so are the others
at AI and the Scoobies. Really, I think the only thing we disagree
on is what constitutes a hero. I think they are regular people
who do extraordinary things, and I think you see them as extraordinary
people doing extraordinary things. Marvel versus DC, as shadowkat
pointed out, and that's just personal preference.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> That's where Angel STARTED
-- Diana, 13:19:29 07/26/03 Sat
But as they have written an entire series around him, there had
to be a bit more than just redemption to him. Once they got him
to his Epiphany, just like they realized with "Innocence"
what they really had, they realized they could take Angel to some
really amazing places.
I like Angel because after you realize that you can never make
up for things, then what? What happens when you can't make Amends?
Angel was a monster and he doesn't know how to be anything else.
The story has become about learning what it means to be human.
In some ways because he can't take things for granted, he has
become the Uber-human.
I like the story. Redemption was just the tiniest part of it.
As Manwitch said, once they took him to his own show, he became
the top dog and things happened, to me amazing things.
As for what is a hero, if everyone was a hero than the world wouldn't
be so screwed up. Giles is the Man behind Blue Eyes, not Buffy.
A hero is someone with that heart where circumstances bring out
that heart. For whatever reason (in Buddhism we say they have
dust in their eyes) not everyone has it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Excellent points and I don't have to add
anything :-) -- Diana, 10:13:25 07/26/03 Sat
[> Re: Lorne and alcohol
-- Ann, 13:02:13 07/23/03 Wed
I just thought it was part of his persona as a "brat packy
- Sinatra styled lounge singer". The Frank Sinatra, Sammy
Davis, and Dean Martin stylings that always included a drink and
[> [> Re: Lorne and alcohol
-- meritaten, 21:02:24 07/23/03 Wed
That is what I thought at first, but then I got to wondering...
Not saying that is does have meaning, but I got to thinking about
it and wanted to hear what others thought. Thanks for your input.
[> [> Yes, I agree.
-- Arethusa, 07:33:18 07/24/03 Thu
I can imagine Lorne being sucked through the portal in Pylea,
ending up on our garish planet terrified and lost, than hearing
a strange noise that he has only heard before in his imagination.
Irrisistably drawn to the exotic sounds, he wanders into the shadowy
doorway of a martini lounge, where he immediately and for all
time falls in love with the twinkling lights, smokey air, and,
most of all, the lounge singer in a shiny jacket singing "Feelings."
Or maybe "Mandy."
Having a glass in hand might be like a child's blankie, there
for comfort rather than warmth. It helps him maintain the new
image of himself that gives him so much happiness.
[> [> [> Re: Lorne
and lighting and makeup -- Ann, 19:46:11 07/24/03 Thu
The atmosphere around Lorne always seems to be lit differently
even when he is not on stage in Vegas. I don't know if they use
different lighting around him specifically or if it is the wardrobe
or makeup, more "reflective" perhaps, but he is decidedly
better lit than the other characters. The drink adds to that "bright,
shiny" persona in that it also reflects the light. This all
contrasts nicely with the fact that he is a demon.
Domestic Penetration -- ponygirl, 12:26:41 07/23/03 Wed
I'm very excited! The lovely Scroll found this amazing essay the
other day and now its author, Thamiris, has very kindly allowed
me to repost it here.
While a large part of the essay concerns shows with which I have
little or no familiarity I think its ideas can be discussed with
regard to any number of programs - especially AtS with its domestic
issues and use of space. Plus it's really fun! Enjoy:
Domestic Penetration: Queering the Home in Highlander, Buffy:
The Vampire Slayer, The Sentinel, and Smallville
There's something undeniably penetrative when one man invites
another into his home, when one man invites himself in. Mi casa
es su casa, Methos says as Duncan enters his house uninvited,
a come-on so queer that the set designer's forced to display naked
statuesque tits complete with erect nipples beside Duncan's head
in a laughably impotent reminder of canonical heterosexuality.
In case savvy viewers missed the queer nature of this invitation
issued at first meeting, in the same episode, five-thousand-year-old
Methos offers Duncan (his) head, assuring him that only through
this sacrifice will Duncan be powerful enough to stop the baddie.
That original entry into Methos' home marks the start of a beautiful
Stepping into a guy's house--or his loft, basement, or mansion--reconfigures
male relationships, binding the men like gay Crazy Glue by placing
them in a locus where normative gender boundaries break down,
pushing the limits of what it means to be a man. Inside the domestic
sphere, men can play with traditional definitions of masculinity,
sometimes appropriating stereotypical female roles to produce
in this hidden interior behavior that's flirty, subversive and
queer as a drag queen's red leather corset. A house is a body,
as Freud suggests: it's the place that keeps it, the place that
mimics its open and closed boundaries. When Duncan enters Methos'
house, he's performing an action that immediately creates a high
degree of intimacy between them, confirmed by Methos' offer of
a beer: they're now co-joined in such a way that the secretive
Methos doesn't even deny his identity. He wants Duncan there,
has left his door open to be entered, even lounges by his bed
waiting for the penetration.
As I'll argue below, this entry into the home joins the characters
in a tight relationship not unlike marriage, turning them into
metaphorical lovers, with the tenor of the relationship then changing,
becoming warmer and decidedly queer. In particular, this acceptance
into the domestic space shakes up the views of the more conventionally
masculine character, the one with the more rigid view of male
behavior, generally the one whose life has been posited on aggression:
the Horseman, the vampire, the cop, the magnate.
While Spike and Xander always trade quips on BtVS, when Spike
moves into Xander's basement in Hush their dialogue becomes highly
Spike: Don't see why I have to be tied up.
Xander: It's just while I'm sleeping.
Spike: Like I'd bite you anyway.
Xander: Oh, you would.
Spike: Not bloody likely.
Xander: I happen to be very biteable, pal. I'm moist and delicious.
Spike: All right, yeah, fine. You're a nummy treat.
Xander: And don't you forget it.
Houses are like bodies, so entering them without permission is
an invasion, a point that vampire lore itself highlights, where
the invitation to enter a residence is an implicit invitation
to be penetrated by vampiric teeth. Locks function as a kind of
meta-chastity belt, and when opened lead to a confusion of conventional
sexual barriers. Part of this confusion comes from the conspicuous
reconfiguration of standard gender roles, the reappropriation
of normative domestic vocabulary. In the above example from BtVS,
Spike's presence in Xander's basement triggers a conversation
that appropriates the language of the kitchen, relying on food
metaphors for its erotic power. To eat is suddenly infused with
a new, sexier dimension; it's no longer just Mom and Dad with
a knife and fork at the dinner table.
Moreover, the element of violence always implicit in the vampire
bite is replaced with an insistence on taste and flavor, emphasizing
Xander's appeal as a biteable subject, one that Spike would enjoy
in an unconventional way. That Spike is bound and in Xander's
home upends the usual power dynamic between vampire and man, too,
while adding a little kink because of the intimate connection
of bed (Xander) and bondage (Spike). Spike, in fact, eventually
both acknowledges his domestication and rebels against it in Doomed,
trying to stake himself as a form of escape, telling Willow and
Xander that I'm beyond pathetic. Stuck in this basement washing
skivvies for a blighter I wouldn't have bothered to bite a few
Spike's insertion into the role of unappreciated wife is arguably
a crucial step in his recuperation into the heroic fold: while
many fans might not appreciate his emasculation, a de-butched
Spike increases his acceptance by the Scoobies, and therefore
his usefulness in the business of world-saving, rather than world-ending.
Even after he gets his own crypt, traces of his domestication
linger as he measures a crypt rather than simply taking it as
he would've seasons earlier; in addition to the chip in his head,
his adventures in domesticity, his new uncomfortable role of submissive
housekeeper, have reconfigured his approach to the world.
This disruption of domestic paradigms is also found in another
slash classic, The Sentinel. The morning after Blair moves into
Jim's loft in The Debt we see him in the kitchen making Jim breakfast,
the table set for their meal. Butch cop Jim is obviously uncomfortable
as Blair queers their relationship by stepping into the traditional
wife role, but his discomfort only highlights the scene's queer
Blair: Come and get it! Eggs are almost done, scrambled firm just
the way you like them, right? Good morning. Have a seat, man.
Jim: If you think this little courtship ritual here is going to
change my mind about throwing your butt out of here...
Jim views Blair's actions as a type of seduction, a courtship
ritual, and I think it's the situation that encourages such a
reading; outside the domestic sphere Jim would more likely label
this scene, following the implications of the episode title, as
a "bribe" to ensure that Jim feels "indebted"
to Blair, and thus less likely to kick him out, not as a sexual
come-on. The ensuing conversation not only plays up the underlying
equation of food and self, as we saw in the BtVS example, but
also offers an explanation for the scene's queer allure.
Blair points out that for the moment at least, I'm all yours,
to which Jim responds, tongue-in-cheek, Well, that's a very generous
offer, but I think you'd be a little...in over your head. The
double entendre is unmistakable--and as subsequent episodes prove,
quite successful in pacifying Jim, since they remain friends and
roommates to the end--while Blair goes on to outline the reason
behind his successful technique, talking textually about domination
and submission between groups of men:
Blair: You know, Jim, a couple years ago I did an extensive study
on tribal warriors who share remarkably similar behavioral patterns
to American street gangs.
Jim: You know, these days with a comment like that people could
lose their jobs.
Blair: Jim, this has nothing to do with race, man. This is about
dominance and submission of subgroups. As a matter of fact, a
colleague of mine predicted the outcome of a key U.S Senate vote
last year based on this same model. It's simple really once you
think about it. In all male-dominated, power-based subgroups,
antagonistic action by one group is usually met with equal to
or greater antagonistic action by another.
Jim: Meaning what?
Blair: Meaning that now that the Deuces think that the 357s killed
Antoine, they're going to have to retaliate. Their code of honors
will demand it. So escalation is inevitable.
Instead of dealing with Jim in an antagonistic fashion, Blair
cleverly--or at least from habit--inserts himself into a non-threatening,
"female" mode. And while this discomfits Jim, it's less
threatening and arguably more intriguing to him than Blair in
a more conventional masculine role; ironically, it's the very
inversion of gender roles that makes their unconventional relationship
palatable to Jim, the queerness of it, and there are few venues
more conducive to this inversion than the domestic setting. Blair
allows Jim to think that he has the power when in fact he's able
to control the situation by appearing submissive, some convoluted
gender play that would make Chaucer's Wife of Bath proud. The
Sentinel's popularity is therefore contingent not only on the
physical appeal of the two lead actors but on the show's constant
return to the home as the destabilizing locus of conventional
As Blair points out, the conventional power dynamic between men
is based on aggression, and his implicit suggestion to revise
that dynamic, to mix and match dominance and submission, plays
out in the Methos/Duncan relation. On Highlander, the domestic
intimacy increases radically from that in Methos to what we see
in Till Death, an episode that centers on the subject of love
and marriage. Methos, who has just lost his apartment, offers
to help out Duncan with a little play-acting to reconcile a feuding
couple, all on the apparent condition that Duncan give up the
barge--this in a domestic scene so queer it seems parodic. Duncan
makes Methos tea, asking, Milk?, then, Sugar? before producing
a plate of biscuits for Methos' consumption. Throughout the scene
Duncan flirts outrageously, smirking and playing coy the way you'd
expect from a stereotypical wife who wants something from her
husband and therefore relies on the old adage that the way to
a man's heart is through his stomach.
Methos finally agrees to help out Duncan, Is it really that important
to you? When Duncan admits that it is, Methos says, Okay. I do
this for you...And you give me the barge. While the condition
seems counteractive to the implied reason for acquiescence--Methos'
feelings for Duncan--the episode's conclusion confirms that the
first reason is the real one since Methos tells Duncan that he
doesn't really want the barge. This flirtatious behavior is permissible
between two sword-swingin' men because of the safety afforded
by the domestic space; in here, away from others' prying eyes,
anything can happen. Methos can call Duncan "darling,"
as he does at the end of the agreeing scene, because they're literally
safe here to try on different sexual roles, which means poaching
on queer territory to the delight of fangrrls everywhere.
And in case viewers miss the equation of the sparring lovers Gina
and Robert with Duncan and Methos, there are several additional
visual parallels beyond the pouty behavior shared by Gina and
Duncan, most notably the doubled shattering of a Ming vase. Gina
breaks the first one in a fit of pique at her husband, and when
Duncan buys another to replace it, Methos causes it to break by
throwing the barge keys to Duncan as he's unpacking the vase.
Robert calls Gina a brat, and the term applies equally to both
Duncan and Methos here: free in Duncan's barge, especially once
its ownership becomes questionable, thereby further complicating
the issue of power within the domestic sphere. Without clear lines
determining sex roles, the men are free to experiment, and experiment
they do, all originating from that first, penetrative moment when
Duncan walks into Methos' home.
The penetrative subtext of the domestic space recurs in that mecca
of queerness, Smallville. From the outset, Clark goes repeatedly
and without explicit invitation to Lex's home, a fact that Lex
never challenges but instead seems to accept and even welcome,
despite his insistence on protocol with others. Before I explore
this, however, consider the gesture in the Smallville pilot that
provokes Clark's penetration of Lex's domestic space (and, yes,
I liked writing that--whoo!), which seems borrowed from Blair
Sandburg's Guide to Queer Courtship Rituals: Lex sends an extravagant
gift, complete with a note addressed to Dear Clark, to thank his
pretty boy for the rescue, a gesture sufficiently provocative
that it sends Clark's dad into the paternal version of homosexual
panic, insisting that the refusal and how the feelings it generates
are normal, and by implication that Lex and his flashy gift are
Clark goes to Lex's only after it's been determined that he's
not normal, either, a fact he further demonstrates by shoving
his arm into the thresher, prompting his father's confession that
Clark's actually an alien. So, armed with his otherness, Clark
goes to Luthor Manor, bypassing the security system, and illicitly
entering the mansion, an illicitness that emerges in Clark's first
conversation with Lex on the inside:
Clark: I, uh, buzzed, but no one answered.
Lex: How'd you get through the gate?
Clark: I kinda squeezed through the bars. If this is a bad time...
Lex: Oh, no, no. I think Heike has sufficiently kicked my ass
for the day.
That Lex welcomes this penetration is clear in his refusal to
challenge Clark's presence in his house, not simple letting him
in but breaking off his fencing lesson and, in a telling and eroticized
gesture, taking Clark deeper into his home, up to the second floor,
where the phallic symbols go wild: the foil becomes a bottle of
Ty Nant which Lex can't resist sucking (off), while a bowl of
fruit sits suggestively in the background. Additionally, as he
towels off, Lex offers Clark some deeply personal information
about himself, including his feelings about being bald, rubbing
his head the entire time. Lex even stops Clark from leaving by
calling out a question to him as he retreats, then segues into
the gayest declaration since Sappho put stylus to vellum: After
the accident, when my heart stopped. It was the most exhilarating
two minutes of my life. I flew over Smallville, and for the first
time, I didn't see a dead end. I saw a new beginning. Thanks to
you I have a second chance. We have a future, Clark. And I don't
want anything to stand in the way of our friendship.
Compare this easy acceptance of Clark's entry into his private
sphere despite their single meeting, with Lex's reaction to Bob
Rickman in Hug, where every sentence from the former is delivered
with an armload of sarcasm:
Lex: How did you get in here ?
Rickman: Oh, your guard at the front gate let me through. He's
a great guy.
Lex: I didn't realize we had a meeting on the books.
Rickman: We don't. I come with an olive branch. I just want to
let you know you can call off your lawyers. I am dropping the
Kent farm as a proposed site.
Lex: What's the matter? Losing your touch?
Rickman: No, I've just decided that Smallville really isn't worth
Rickman: Least I know where I'm not wanted.
Lex: Okay, then. Thanks for stopping by.
Not only, then, does Lex accept Clark's constant, casual entries
into his home, but allows himself to be placed within a variety
of unfamiliar roles, including outlaw hero with Kyle Tippett in
Hug and the other half of a married couple with an adopted son
in Ryan. In the latter case, it's not simply the presence of the
boy Ryan in Lex's mansion that inserts both Lex and Clark into
co-parenting roles; their behavior mimics that of concerned guardians
as they leave Ryan wrapped in a blanket by a roaring fire to discuss
his welfare in hushed voices outside the room. They have a tiff
over Lex's concern about harboring a(nother) fugitive, and when
Clark goes to leave, Lex grabs his arm. Despite Clark's tension,
he allows this, doesn't shake Lex off, and as Lex gives in to
Clark's demand, the result is an intimate moment, where a gesture's
potential violence becomes eroticized, a sign of Lex's need and
not his anger.
Like the homes in HL, BtVS, and TS, Lex's home in Smallville also
serves not only as a symbolic extension of the body, but as a
locus for gender play, play that results in a temporary stay of
his rush down the merry path of True Evil. Without Clark, Lex
becomes like his father, as we all know, but Clark's success,
even if impermanent, occurs because he encourages Lex into positions
beyond the simple, stereotype of the aggressive male.
Because of its association with femininity, to be sexually or
morally submissive is usually coded in Western culture as a position
of weakness: to be pussy, to be queer. Spike certainly views it
that way, calling Xander a "bloody poof" when he's the
one worried about his own sexual status. But, whatever their feelings
about it, the men's interaction in the domestic sphere ultimately
humanizes them, so that in the world of genre television submission
gains a new power, an ability to shift paradigms and reconfigure
behavior without ruining the subject, and instead improving it.
During the Horsemen arc Duncan will save Methos from the guilt
he denies he has; Blair will save Jim from being overwhelmed by
his body; Xander will help Spike grow up ('cos let's face: a bad
boy's really hot, but there's a reason the term's not a bad man);
and Clark will help Lex hook up with his inner moral compass.
Submission never looked so good.
[> AtS and living spce
-- ponygirl, 12:31:14 07/23/03 Wed
Here's a bit of the reply I sent to Thamiris' original essay regarding
It's interesting that while Fred, a woman, and Lorne, who reads
as gay, move into Angel's home without hesitation. Gunn on the
other hand is not shown to be living at the hotel until his relationship
with Fred is well established, even then the move seems not to
occur until Angel's summer long absence. Wesley's living situation
was never given much attention until he began his dark, and sexually
active, arc this past season when his apartment became the setting
for many important scenes. One could see him as attempting to
set up a rival space, just as he was setting himself up as a rival
demon-fighter, though since Angel lived in a hotel and Wes in
a one bedroom apartment feelings of inadequacy are to be expected.
[> [> Good point about
Wesley -- Scroll, 18:10:39 07/23/03 Wed
As Season 4 progressed, I could see what the writers were trying
to do with the Hyperion hotel. The hotel is Angel's domain, his
home and workplace. At the end of "Tomorrow", only Fred
was left in the hotel. Gunn moved in with her. Connor eventually
returned, and then they were three. But Cordelia was gone, ascended
to a higher plane; Lorne was gone, called by the glamour of Las
Vegas; Groo was gone, Angel was gone, and Wesley of course had
already left/been kicked out, having betrayed the gang in "Sleep
As the season went on, everyone slowly moved back in to the hotel.
Angel first, then Lorne. Cordelia and Connor were brought into
the fold. When Angelus put Faith in a coma, she was brought back
to the hotel to possibly die in one of the Hyperion's beds. While
Gunn did break up with Fred, we're never told explicitly that
he moved out again. Then of course Jasmine appeared, and the Fang
Gang opened the hotel to her worshippers. The place was overflowing
After she is defeated, the hotel is empty again. Fred says, "The
garden's empty." Lilah pops up with her incredible offer,
and the gang decides to sleep on the decision. And Wesley says,
"I should be getting home." And leaves. And I breathed
a sigh of satisfaction, knowing that this line was key.
Probably not a big plot point to most people, but I liked the
fact that Wesley, although he has reconciled with the Fang Gang
for the most part, still maintains his own space. He can't go
back to the way things were; he can't pretend to be Angel's younger
brother/surrogate son. He's separate from them, and can no longer
share a home. I liked that very much :)
[> [> [> The office
building -- ponygirl, 06:41:09 07/24/03 Thu
Hmm, thinking about that hotel. The new W&H office seems to be
the anti-Hyperion - full of light, full of people. It's as though
after all the contraction of the past season, where everything
was so contained at the hotel the outside world began to exist
only as some sort of nightmare that the characters would reluctantly
venture into. Then in Home it all burst open with the skylights
and the escalators. Is it the real world though?
[> After some reflection,
a warning: the above essay is somewhat naughty and very slashy!
-- ponygirl, 13:56:26 07/23/03 Wed
[> [> Slashy fun! Thanks
pg, I really *was* getting around to it! -- Scroll, who needs
to email TBQ re: Wes & Gay Stereotypes, 14:54:44 07/23/03 Wed
[> Ah, the good old days
of Methos/Duncan! -- HonorH, 14:13:45 07/23/03 Wed
I love "Till Death," and the scene the essayist quotes
is one of my favorites in part because of all the eyelash-batting
Duncan does while buttering up Methos--not to mention Methos'
knowing grin during it all. And let's not forget that the following
season, Methos just appears one day, lounging on Duncan's bed,
having entered without even notifying Mac he was in town.
Actually, come to think of it, the first time we see Methos in
fourth season (shortly after he'd been introduced), he shows up
at a house Duncan's repairing. That episode, "Chivalry,"
also gives us the luverly nose-painting scene, as well as another
incredibly slashy swordfight (no pun intended). Ahh, HL, the fandom
that first made me think slashy thoughts as regards two males!
I was already into Xena, so slashy female-ness was in the bag.
But I'm sorry: I will never, never see Spike/Xander. Sometimes,
hate is just hate, and with those boys, it's just hate. At least,
[> [> I love 'Till Death'!
I love all the Methos episodes : ) -- Scroll, 18:23:03
Good point about "Chivalry". Nothing says 'intimacy'
and 'trust' than building and decorating a home together -- even
if it wasn't exactly Duncan and Methos' house. And that swordfight
was slashy, pun intended! But I think "courtship rituals"
is a key term that applies very much to the Duncan/Methos relationship,
even if you don't apply slash lenses to the show. Methos is all
about "wooing" Duncan through intrigue and mystery,
Duncan is all about "domesticating" the old man. They
"champion" each other's causes, protect one another,
and feel deeply betrayed with the arrival of Cassandra and Kronos,
the "old lover(s)" to whom they have a former attachment.
They get jealous, talk at cross-purposes, but eventually reconcile
though their friendship is never exactly the same.
Can you tell I love this show? And their relationship? Hee!
Methos and MacLeod remind me very much of Wesley and Angel, Lex
and Clark, and Blair and Jim. Not Spike and Xander though; I agree
with you, HonorH. While both characters can give off slashy/queer
vibes (Xander unconsciously, Spike probably not-so-unconsciously),
I see their antagonism as pure and simple hatred. Or at least
distrust. Even at their most friendly, these two were never friends,
never really respected each other, and at any rate, always had
their attentions focused on the fairer sex!
[> S/X, or is it X/S-ive?
-- MsGiles, 03:28:52 07/25/03 Fri
I like the essay! Although I would think that Spike's domestic
leanings go right back to his arrival in Sunnydale, when he fixes
up the factory to look a bit more modern. As early as S2, in Becoming2,
he shows a touching care for the decor:
You have your way with him, you'll never get to destroy the
world. And I don't fancy spending the next month trying to get
librarian out of the carpet. There are other ways.
So it's not inconceivable that Spike would spend a month scrubbing
the carpet in the mansion (grumbling under his breath), following
one of Angelus' messier kills.
Perhaps his time with Xander accentuates this domestic quality.
I never felt any chemistry between the two either, but the subtext
in the exchange quoted is undeniable. Xander is horrified at the
thought of being bitten by Spike, even though, in Spike's chipped
state, the bite would have to be consensual. So does he fear that
he might consent, put to the test? He's also upset, illogically,
by the implication that Spike might *not* want to bite him. Like
Willow, alarmed as much by the newly-chipped Spike's inability
to bite her as by his attempt, he assumes that rejection by Spike
would be confirmation of his fear that he is fundamentally unattractive.
I think there's a specific vampire subtext in this sequence, as
opposed to the others quoted in the essay. Vampires have their
own symbolic baggage, rooted in the Victorian gothic fiction that
used horror themes to present sexual content that was unacceptable
in mainstream literature in an undisguised form. I happen to have
been re-reading 'Dracula' for the melee (nice when things mesh),
and the commentary to my copy points out the strong homoerotic
tension in Dracula's interactions with Harker in the castle. Three
female vampires attack Harker in an overt sexual manner: as they
move in to bite, big D calls them off. 'He is mine!' The unspoken
implication then is that Dracula is after Harker, both sexually
and to feed, and that fuels the extreme fear which leads Harker
to risk death by throwing himself out of a window (out of Dracula's
castle, incidentally, which the Count has insisted he visit and
stay in, even though he's only an estate agent with property the
vampire wants to buy). It was an era in which, with the trial
of Oscar Wilde, homosexuality had become both high profile and
socially condemned: the crime 'that dare not speak its name'.
The situation in Dracula's castle is reversed in Xander's basement
- Spike has been rendered defenceless by the chip. Does Spike
try to kill himself because subconsciously he fears he will be
sexually possessed by Xander, in his helpless state (since Xander
seems to be exploiting him every other way) and effectively become
his wife? A neat punishment for a vicious, manipulative vampire,
one might think. Perhaps, as well as mixing his dominance with
submissiveness to make him an acceptable team member, this is
a symbolic 'payment' for his Big Badness, a payment that Spike
has to make before we can accept him as reformed, or at least
In addition (parodies notwithstanding) I do think there is an
ambivalence to the vampire bite as a sexual metaphor. Although
there is the fanged penetration, there is also the sucking. It
is in a sense both male and female, both penetrative and engulfing.
So I think there is always at least a cross-gender subtext where
vampires are involved, as both male and female vampires will penetrate
and, um, suck. When the vampire/victim are same sex, then add
homoerotic to that mix.
[> [> Re: S/X, or is
it X/S-ive? -- ponygirl, 08:22:44 07/25/03 Fri
I agree with you and HonorH and Scroll that Xander and Spike have
a purely antagonistic relationship. I think it is interesting
though in terms of dominance. It seems that the more domestic
role is seen as the submissive one. I always liked how Xander
easily slipped into Odd Couple mode living with Spike, even in
s7 he was complaining about towels left on the floor. Contrast
this to the father/teenage son vibe Spike had living with Giles
- in the bathroom all the time and eating all the food - despite
the occasional odd choice of words from Giles: "lick
me to death," "I'd like to take a shower - alone".
[> [> Re: S/X, or is
it X/S-ive? -- Elenphant, 01:35:40 07/26/03 Sat
One might also include the time Spike spent with Giles after escaping
from the Initiative. In Hush, he tidies the books right before
Xander starts to pummel him. Spike keeps his blood in the fridge
in a mug labeled 'Kiss the Librarian,' obviously given to Giles
by someone else (perhaps the Scoobies?), since it doesn't seem
the type of thing Giles would buy for himself. Also he gets chained
to the bathtub while Buffy feeds him from a straw. Giles hands
him off to Xander so that he can take a shower - I wonder where
he put Spike when he had to do other stuff in the bathroom. There
is also the scene where Spike interrupts Giles when he's singing
in the privacy of his living room - he watches Giles sing and
has an amused look on his face when Giles tries to compose himself.
Spike tells him that for a watcher, he might spare a look towards
the door once in a while. Note Giles didn't even tell the Scoobies
about his playing and singing; they found out by accident when
they went to the expresso pump (and note each of their reactions
- Willow thinks he's sexy even though she has officially come
out, and Xander looks a bit dazed).
for now... -- shadowkat, 13:49:59 07/23/03 Wed
I've decided to leave the ATPO board for awhile. I don't know
if or when I'll come back. The reason isn't overly complicated
and not meant to be a slamn against anyone in particular. When
doing something is no longer fun and just stressful and brings
out a part of myself I don't particularly like? It is time to
stop doing it.
I had planned to just stop posting and disappear. Since I don't
like goodbye posts, they seem self-indulgent and ways to get attention
to me. (That said this probably seems hypocritical to some.) This
post isn't meant to be that.
I'm just want to let the people I've grown close to and have come
to highly respect on this board know that I'm going - that's all.
As I expect they would let me know if they decided to go. Since
I don't have all their email addresses I've decided to do it this
way. Sorry for taking up board space to do it.
So this is my last visit to the board for the time being. I'm
saying goodbye to some of the posters I've gotten to know over
the past two years. If I don't return here, perhaps we'll meet
in another venue, perhaps a corner in Istanbul? Who knows?
At any rate, I've really enjoyed your posts, and appreciate your
responses to mine and support you've given me over the last two
years. I'm sorry I can no longer participate in the Book Melee
or the Buffy discussions, but am certain you'll have fun without
me, and in a few weeks will probably not even miss me that much.
Anyways,thank you very much and goodbye for now.
With warm regards,
[> Awwww, SK -- Rahael, 13:57:47
You know that deciding to leave here and then changing your mind
is the very definition of a regular poster!!
Otherwise I'll have to come over all sentimental and gushy and
that's really not a good thing!!
[> [> What she said.
-- Rob, already missing you immensely, 14:35:58 07/23/03 Wed
[> Oh dear -- ponygirl, 14:03:47
I really hope this is just a temporary break, I hate to think
of you not being around.
Take care, and email me ok?
[> Just wanted to let you
know how much I've enjoyed your posts -- Alison, 14:09:20
I've gotten the sense of late that you seem rather, I don't know,
burn out, when it comes to Buffy, and the board. So while I understand
your discision to leave, I want to thank you for your wonderful
posts. Over the time I've been here your post's have always made
me look far deeper into Buffy than I ever would have. You're an
inspiration to me as a writer. Best of luck.
[> you'll be missed...
-- Anneth, 14:28:41
I'm terribly sorry to see you go. I've looked forward to and loved
your insightful essays for as long as you've been posting here.
[> Re: OT: Goodbye for now...
-- Masquerade, 14:35:49 07/23/03 Wed
I just wanted to say I support your choice to post where you feel
comfortable and where you have fun. I hope that you will come
back soon, and find ATPo once again a place where you can do that.
[> Parting is such sweet
and bitter and sorrow -- fresne, 14:48:09 07/23/03 Wed
I have always very much enjoyed your posts. Thank you.
Here is hoping that you walkabout awhile and return refreshed
and reenergized. And if, not, then indeed round the Golden Horn
to best wishes and future meetings.
[> Looking forward to your
return! -- Sara, the
optimist, 14:53:26 07/23/03 Wed
Hi sk -
I hope you enjoy your board vacation and come back soon! I know
that we all need a change at times, but I hope this won't stop
you from coming to the NY meet. If you feel like chatting drop
me a line. I hope things go well with your writing and job hunt
- we're rooting for you!
[> [> Seconding the optimism
-- Finn Mac Cool, 17:21:07 07/23/03 Wed
[> [> [> Thirding
it, but only because first and second were already taken. :-)
-- OnM, 05:31:18 07/24/03 Thu
Come back soon, 'kat. We'll certainly miss you.
Very best wishes,
[> Sorry to see you go
15:06:34 07/23/03 Wed
Although I've been mostly lurking for the last several months,
when I do come on the board, I look for your posts. I know that
you always add something -- insight, humor -- to the discussion.
But I think I understand your desire to take a break, at the least.
Even lurking has not been particularly enjoyable lately. I hope
you return at some point. If, however, you do find another place
where you feel more comfortable, I would appreciate hearing about
it, if you are so inclined.
[> Nice to meet you...
-- Yellow Bear, 15:13:22 07/23/03 Wed
In my short time here, I've always found your posts to intelligent,
insightful & in good humor (even when I disagreed). Hope you won't
stay away but if it is becoming stressful then it's right to stop
[> We may be losing the
best right now -- Seven, 15:14:55 07/23/03 Wed
I've enjoyed your posts since i found this board 9 months ago.
you're posts made me think deeper and further than anyone else's.
For that i thak you.
[> Thank you -- sdev,
15:26:07 07/23/03 Wed
I have really enjoyed reading your posts including many older
ones from the archives. You have added significantly to my understanding
and enjoyment. I hope you decide to return.
Because of the reasons you gave for leaving, I did want to add
one thing regarding something you said about being very emotional
and how that affected you. I know I don't know you personally
so I am sorry for being presumptuous. I do think emotions are
a great source of power and don't feel you need to apologize for
being an emotional person. Without that part of you, your writing
would not have the range and depth it does.
Thanks for how nice you've been to me. And you'll miss Dracula.
[> I'm sorry to see you
go, s'kat! Please email me... -- Scroll,
15:26:12 07/23/03 Wed
[> So very sorry to see
you go -- MaeveRigan, 16:49:37 07/23/03 Wed
I always greet your posts with interest and am never disappointed.
Your reasons are your reasons, but please know that you will
be missed. In significant ways, ATPo won't be the same without
[> Re: OT: Goodbye for now...
-- Arethusa, 16:50:59 07/23/03 Wed
I don't have e-mail yet. Dammit.
It's odd, I feel selfishly angry. You provide the exposition;
you're the Mind for this UberBuffy site. You're our (female) Giles.
Don''t go away forever. We will need posters who can discuss Angel
[> Wuh? -- Celebaelin,
16:52:07 07/23/03 Wed
You'll be greatly missed SK. I guess everone needs a break for
one reason or another from time to time. There's absolutely no
snark intended when I say I hope you come back better than ever,
[> But I'm still going to
stuff the ballot box in your honor. -- WickedBuffy
(please email when you the have time), 18:04:27 07/23/03
[> Very sorry to see you
go. Hope you come back soon. -- curious, 20:34:53 07/23/03
[> you can go...if you really
have to... -- anom, 00:29:50 07/24/03 Thu
...but only if you quit putting yourself down like that! And I
don't have to like that you're going! Which I don't. Wish you
wouldn't, but if that's how you feel, I hope you'll be back soon!
Meanwhile, we'll save a place for you....
I'm sorry you're not enjoying the board lately. It's gonna be
strange not to have you posting here--you're such a presence on
this board. I'm glad to be one of the lucky ones who gets to see
you at local board meets! You better still come to those, you
know! And we will too miss you!
[> [> But, but...
-- Darby, 07:16:26 07/24/03 Thu
This sort of feels like talking to someone who has already left
the room, but I had to add that we have no choice but to keep
your spot open, because only you can occupy it.
And to add to the chorus that you can't evade our face-to-face
meetings so easily. We know where you live...no, wait a minute,
we don't know that...anyway, our NY group is even more insidious
than the Board, and will not easily be repelled!
[> <needy voice>
-- Tchauikovsky, 01:41:32 07/24/03 Thu
You'll be missed shadowkat. I hope you come back after a little
while- it will be a great joy to see one of those multi-part posts.
How will you resist Voy's reaction to Angel Season Five?
In any case, go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember
what peace there may be in silence.
[> 'No-one asks for their
life to change, Not really. But it does' -- MsGiles, 02:32:54
'The big moments are gonna come..'
Please keep the collected musings site, it's great.
Come back if things turn that way
What can I say?
'So long and thanks for all the fish'
[> bye shadowcat --
frisby, 06:12:53 07/24/03 Thu
bye shadowcat. i also seem to have next to nothing to say now
that the series has ended (now that the 'church' of buffy has
begun). i also enjoyed many of your posts. things do change, and
again come round. love life. find joy.
[> Thank you for everything
-- dream, 07:34:50 07/24/03 Thu
I've had the same feelings about the board. The show is over;
it's time to move on. Inevitably, the arguments are going to start
repeating themselves. (And, well, there are two particular posters
who pretty much ruined the experience for me before the show ended.
I would try to avoid their posts, but it was difficult.) Now,
I only check in to look at Rob's annotation threads. It's too
bad - I've really come to be deeply fond of some of the people
here. But these sorts of communities do have a built-in expiration
date. That said, shadowcat, I've learned so much from you. My
enjoyment of this show has been greatly enhanced by reading your
essays. Thank you for the work you've put into your writing here.
It has been deeply appreciated.
[> Re: OT: Goodbye for now...
-- JCC, 07:44:04
SK, I'm sorry that sometimes it comes to this on the board, but
that's the price we pay for having so many people with such strong
opinions. I can only hope you come back once this storm has died
down. It's an emotional time for fans right now with the end of
Buffy and the fears over big changes to Angel next season, but
we'll all miss you here. Come back soon.
[> Hey SK, will you do me
a favor? -- Sophist, 08:01:02 07/24/03 Thu
Let me preface the request by saying that I know the feeling.
I never get nearly as angry at other people as I do at myself.
Odd, isn't it? I'm more willing to move on past the most obnoxious
behavior of others, but I flog and punish (heh) myself over much
"Do you want me to tell you that you acted rashly? You did
and I can." Yeah, you made a mistake. But it was pretty minor
and under provocation (deliberate in one case, innocent in another).
But you have proved on more than one occasion that you are deserving
of my support.
So my favor is this: re-watch IOHEFY. Then we can talk.
[> Re: OT: Goodbye for now...
-- Yoda, 08:08:29
S'kat, I remember reading your posts first at the BC&S and then
here. I am a big fan of your essays and will miss your presence
here but hope to see you at some of the other boards. Every once
in a while I see you post at the Angel Soul Board and hope you
continue to show up there. I will definitely keep an eye out for
[> Very sorry to hear this
-- KdS, 09:37:44 07/24/03 Thu
If it is permanent, all my best wishes for the future. You've
been responsible for some of the best long essays I've seen on
this board (and better than some essays on the show by professional
[> For now . . . --
tomfool, 10:23:23 07/24/03 Thu
I hope that your away status is just 'for now'. Your posts are
one of the things that has made the show so much fun for me and
helped seal my addiction when I discovered it at the beginning
of S6. I think my first post (infrequent as they are) was in response
to one of your essays.
I think that you're experiencing the same thing that so many others
are. Now that the show that has brought so many people together
is gone, is there a reason to continue talking about it? I've
noticed that some of my favorite reviewers around the net haven't
posted their reviews of Chosen yet. I think it's a procrastination
born of not wanting to admit that it's over. (Or maybe they just
haven't mastered the Onm style of the never-ending review.)
Bottom line is it's an emotional period as people adjust to the
new reality. With a new season of Angel coming, I hope that your
break refreshes your spirit and you'll grace us with your insights
Best of luck in the job situation and I hope that the fall season
finds you tucked in nicely in a spiritually fulfilling, high-paying,
world-saving gig. (Or at least something that pays the bills.)
'Hope that make some sense.' ;-)
[> So..why are you leaving?
-- O'Cailleagh, 17:29:00 07/24/03 Thu
I checked through the archives and all I can find is that you
lost your temper and acted a little rashly, and then owned up
Well, I can forgive the emotional outburst, you know, since you're
not a Vulcan, and judging by the list of posts befroe this one,
so does everyone else.
You're one of the most provocative posters here S'kat, and that's
one of the reasons you're so well-loved here. Don't leave over
a few weeks of bickering, it'll die down soon. Unless, of course,
all the sensible people go and leave the not-so-sensible to argue.
Really, S'kat, reconsider this, or at least come back in a week
or two to see if you feel any better.
[> [> Thank you for all
the responses and hopefully some explaination -- s'kat
(still taking a break), 20:18:16 07/24/03 Thu
I really do appreciate your warm responses. Especially dream and
Sarand who really did understand. Read their posts, they hit the
nail on the head more or less.
I honestly did not mean this to become a production number. (I
should have just retreated quietly...oh, well too late for that
So, I'll try to explain. This is not meant as a slamn against
Masq or the board. It's really important to me that people understand
that. I don't want anyone leaving b/c I'm leaving for a while.
I don't want this to lead to censorship or a feeling that you
can't speak your mind. I can't express enough how much I'm against
I truly appreciate Masq and her hard work. I honour her stance
against censorship. I honour her decision not to delete posts.
S/he's one of the few moderators out there who does allow people
to speak their mind and the board has always been stronger for
it. Those are amongst the reasons I've stayed on this board for
two years, in fact during May 2002 - June 2003, Atpo really was
the only board I posted on. I am proud to be in it's archives
and have my name at the top of the board. I am not, repeat, not
leaving b/c of anything Masq has done. S/he is one of the reasons
I've stayed as long as I have. I've also stayed as long as I have
because of all of you who responded to my post above and emailed
me and have kindly responded to my essays. To receive such kind
responses has kept me going during many a dark day, let me tell
I'm just taking a sabbatical from Atpo for a while. Or as a friend
of mine put it: "strategically repositioning myself to stay
sane." This has as much to do with things going on in my
own life as on the board. As many of you may or may not know -
I left a very bad employment situation in Nov 2002 and am hunting
a job. So the job interview/hunt rollercoaster ride is beginning
to get to me a bit.
I have a couple of confessions to make which may or may not shed
a little light on this - one: As some of you may have guessed
- I am an insane Spike fan.;-) Spike is the reason I watched Btvs
in S6-S7. Willow being a close second. (I loved the other characters
too, of course. But Spike became my obsession. Something about
this character hit my inner core. ) Spike is my favorite all time
character. I honestly feel for him and his journey. And I see
him as completely fictional and metaphorical. In a sense he represents
my archetype, my shadow-self. But I've felt ashamed to come out
and state this, afraid people will disregard my posts b/c of it
and am tired of feeling that way. Tired of constantly defending
the character and myself through the character. I know he has
faults. All the characters do. And I understand that some people
hate him - there are a few characters I hate (Wood and Andrew)
who I've tried to refrain from posting on, b/c I know there are
people who love them dearly and I honor that - we all come at
two: I also am an overly emotional person at times. I do a good
job of keeping it in - but at times it just gets the better of
me, particularly when under stress. And looking for a job is well
very stressful for me. My frustration quota is at a 10+++ - so
it takes very very little to push my buttons right now. And I've
almost written some very nasty posts - usually as a response to
those buttons. And those buttons by and large have to do with
The turning point for me - was when I...how to put this without
people taking it the wrong way...I wanted to hurt people. I just
felt overwhelmed with the sense of being unable to control anything,
resentment, anger, frustration.. and realized, wait you can control
something! Turn off the computer. Stop posting.
Leave. That is a far more positive reponse than posting in anger
or trying to bash others or flames - since all that does is make
things worse. I'm a pacifist for a reason - I honestly believe
in kharma and in the fact that when you hurt someone else you
inevitably hurt yourself 200 times more. So when the inclination
arises in me - I put a stop to it, which is to retreat, to pull
away. Leave the situation for a while. (Don't know if that makes
I'm also just burnt out on all the Btvs posts. I didn't enjoy
S7 as much as some people did and am also dealing with that disappointment/let-down.
And the bitching and moaning about Spike moving to Angel...was
more than I could handle. I know I know it sounds silly...and
that's one of the reasons I thought it might be good to leave.
Anyways, I really appreciate the support and all. Please please
don't take this decision personally. It's just something I have
to do right now. I want to leave while I still have your respect
and my dignity intact. Before I become trollish. That's all. I
didn't mean to upset anyone.
Come October? Who knows...I may be back and rareing to go.
Possibly even before. Maybe even in two weeks. I just need some
time is all.
Again, my apologies for making this into an overly self-indulgent
production number. It really wasn't my intent.
Hope that made a lick of sense.
[> [> [> It makes
an entire popsicle of licks! :> namaste -- WickedBuffy
(you're a great role model, too!), 09:40:20 07/25/03 Fri
[> [> [> Thanks for
that -- Masq, 09:42:15 07/25/03 Fri
I didn't take this personally at all, in case you were wondering.
I was not aware of everything that was going on, but mutual board
friends filled me in on the missing details, and I completely
understand your reasons.
I'll leave a candle in the window for you.
[> Hate to see you go
-- mamcu, 08:45:49 07/25/03 Fri
You've been one of the brightest lights on the board. I think
it was one of your posts that first attracted me to this board,
and I will truly miss you. Hope all goes well--
and social responsibility -- Masquerade, 15:02:00 07/23/03
Things have been a bit angsty lately on this board and across
the Buffydom internet. With the end of BtVS and the changes on
AtS, emotions have been running high. People are understandably
upset, sad, hopeful, excited, nervous, and this board has felt
all of that.
The ATPo board has been around for three years now, and in that
time it has come to have a reputation as a place where people
can engage in intelligent and civil conversation about Buffy the
Vampire Slayer, Angel, and many other topics. I don't want that
to end. And I certainly don't want to see valued posters leaving
the board because they can no longer get that here*.
One of the things that has characterized this board is the freedom
posters have to say what's on their minds and in their hearts
about the show(s), its themes, and its characters. As moderator,
I don't enjoy nor do I believe in censoring or deleting posts
because they don't reflect a certain "party line", or
because they have an adult level of discussion (or vocabulary).
As a result, threads on this board can go many interesting places.
They can also sometimes get heated and unpleasant.
This is where we have to remember as an internet community that
freedom to say what we want comes with responsibility. Make that
* You have a right to your opinion, but other people have a right
to theirs. You cannot expect people not to disagree with you from
time to time. If you don't like what they have to say, you don't
have to reply. If you do reply, remember that
· emotions are good things, we all have them, but if you
are posting while you are upset or angry, you are more likely
to say things that will hurt others.
· personal attacks on the poster are not arguments. Nor
is insulting people who share a particular point of view. Address
the points they make, not the person who makes them.
· the internet, by its very nature, is a place where words
can get easily misunderstood. We don't have the short-cuts we
use in everday life to get our full meaning across (body language
that lets people know we are joking or saying something tongue-in-cheek).
Consider the effect what you say may have on other posters
before you press "approve". There's more than one
reason we have a "modify and approve message" page before
we finish posting. : )
· refrain from posting under pseudonyms as a rule. Sometimes
we do this in a light-hearted way with no intention of deceiving
others, but people have used unknown pseudonyms as a way of "getting
away with" ill-tempered arguments they would not ordinarily
post under their recognized posting names. (BTW, I'm not referring
here to the well-known aliases we all love and use, like "Masq"
or "The First Evil", but only to the attempt to hide
one's identity with unknown psuedonyms).
· do what you can to make ATPo a place where we all come
to enjoy discussions together. This has been a home community
for many fans on the net. Let's continue to make it that.
*Just reiterating here that I support the choice of posters who
wish to leave for whatever reason. I don't want them to leave,
and for the few that recently have, I personally will miss them
and hope they will return to the board when they are ready.
[> Re: Free speech and social
responsibility -- Yellow Bear, 15:20:49 07/23/03 Wed
I'm very surprised to read the above. I'm realtively new here
(a month or so) and have found this board to be unfailingly polite
in that time, certainly compared to a few others I've seen.
Just wanted to state that if anything I've said has been upsetting
to others that it was certainly not my intent in any way. Hope
the board continues to be as thoughtful & smart as I have seen
it over this last month
[> Thank you for being a
voice of reason, Masq -- Scroll,
15:24:46 07/23/03 Wed
I haven't been around lately, not even lurking, so it's only the
past couple of days that I've noticed the tension that's sprung
up on the board. While it's certainly understandable that emotions
are running high, I'm very sorry to hear about posters leaving.
I totally get their need for a break (permanent or not), but I'll
miss them all! And hope they will one day come back...
For everyone else planning to stay, I hope we'll be able to take
deep breaths, understand that we're all emotional, reactive, mouse-clicking-happy
posters who sometimes say things we later deeply regret -- because
I'm sure none of us enjoy hurting other people's feelings,
or enjoy baiting even posters we don't get along with. I hope
we'll let by-gones be by-gones, and start fresh.
[> Great, Masq. As Scroll
said.. -- Random, 15:31:58 07/23/03 Wed
Thanks for being the voice of reason. Tensions get high, but the
one thing that has kept me coming back to the board with great
consistency (besides the extremely high level of thought) is the
fact that this is apparently one of the few boards where differences
of opinion are not only tolerated but encouraged. Free speech
is a wonderful thing, and attacking others for engaging in it
harms everyone. I love this board and look forward to all the
wonderful posts that have enriched my Buffy experience. The malaise
and tension of the post-Buffy era summer will hopefully be dispelled
when Angel returns and we can all go back to debating the profound
[> [> Beautifully and
expertly worded, Masq. Thank you. -- Rob, 15:33:10 07/23/03
[> [> [> Oops! Responded
in the wrong place. Still, you guys get the point. ;o) --
Rob, RobAndMurder, and The Cheerleadery One, 15:34:38 07/23/03
[> Re: Free speech and social
responsibility -- Yellow Bear, 15:56:14 07/23/03 Wed
Wow, I need to read more of the board because I haven't really
picked up on all this tension (the misogyny thread, certainly)
in my occasional fly-bys.
[> [> Don't worry about
it : ) -- Scroll, 17:09:54 07/23/03 Wed
I too was in (relative) ignorance these past few weeks. Hey, why
ruin your enjoyment of the board if you don't have to, right?
Heh, says the girl who's feeling all out-of-the-loopy!
[> [> [> I've been
on the board a lot recently and haven't noticed anything --
Finn Mac Cool, 17:31:49 07/23/03 Wed
At least, none more than is usual. Maybe the knowledge that we
won't have a new episode coming up to resolve or at least distract
us from our arguments is changing our impression of hostility
[> Thank you, Masq. Very
well said. -- LittleBit, 16:02:58 07/23/03 Wed
[> I've found forming underground
organizations an effective alternative to dramatic gestures or
anger -- Rochefort, 17:37:28 07/23/03 Wed
Why would anyone want to stop coming to the board just because
a few posters piss them off? Just quietly don't read those posters.
Why would you want to miss the joys of J-Bone's Road to the Apocolypse
or Honor H's super evil review or MOLOJ's rescue of the scoobies?
Of if you WANT to be pissy, J-bone INVITES pissiness in his battle
comments. This is not a "by invitation" board so anybody
who stumbles upon it can post. That means you probably won't like
most of the people posting. Such is the internet. If you find
your ire being raised, selective reading might be advised.
[> Huh? -- Jay, 20:14:48
If what you're referring to has anything to do with my wise-ass
shenanigans (where in the world did that word come from?), I apologize
and I'm working diligently to get my stuff off the board and back
into it's own realm.
If not, never mind.
It's possible my shenanigans have influenced someone to say things
in other threads, but I don't know what to say about that. I've
encouraged a no holds barred flippant attitude in my stuff, so
I may be partly responsible. I may have to put this to a vote...
Seriously, while I don't worry about insulting anyone, doesn't
mean I want them to be.
[> [> That would be a
'not'! -- d'Herblay, 20:43:41 07/23/03 Wed
Your contest is definitely not irresponsible or uncivil or anything
of the sort, Jay. In fact, I think it might be the one thing that
keeps us sane.
[> [> [> Here Hear!
Road to Apocalypse is sanity inducing!! -- Rochefort, 22:20:30
[> I'd like to add a few
things -- Cactus Watcher, 10:04:47 07/24/03 Thu
I haven't 'gone' anywhere, but lately I haven't felt much like
posting either. I hate to say it, but self restrait has pretty
much failed here in the last few weeks. Let's be honest. Buffy
aside, these aren't the best of times for a lot of people. There
is a tenseness that transends anything that we're talking about
here. The economy here in the US is bad and we know there have
been posters having trouble finding jobs. We also know that there
are posters with family in the military, who have very immediate
and serious worries.
We never know what the people reading our posts are going through,
any more than we know everything going through the minds of the
people whose posts we read.
We've had too many posters lately saying they were leaving lately.
And unfortunately many of us have a good idea why they've been
leaving. It's time to show a little restraint.
Please, think twice about engaging the same people over and over
on the same topic, when the conversation has gotten ugly. Please,
think twice about dragging back to the main board the contentious
topic of one of those huge threads that had hung around for days.
Please, do bring back to the main board the topics of threads
that never got a fair chance. Please, think twice about chiming
in on contentious threads when someone else has already all, but
made the exact point you wanted to make already. Please, think
twice about using contentious threads as a substitute for the
chat room. Let the contentious threads develop, mature and fade
away like any others. But, don't insist on making them last forever.
I don't like avoiding reading certain peoples' posts, but frankly,
for my own sanity I've had to do that lately. If you are having
personal problems, get help somewhere. Even ask for help here,
if there's no place else to turn. Please, don't take personal
problems out on the rest of the board. Other peple have problems,
Masq has put in so much time for our enjoyment and enlightenment.
I feel very sorry for her that things lately have been going badly
on the board. She's given us a lot. Let's not ruin what she's
[> [> Wise advice.
-- Arethusa, 10:45:15 07/24/03 Thu
It's become difficult lately to restrain my angry reactions to
some posts, especially the ones telling posters with opinions
like mine to not participate in certain discussions. I'm trying
very hard to stick to discussing themes in the show, but I'm losing
the battle. A break sounds like a good idea.
[> [> Thank you, CW --
and my own little story -- Scroll, 10:46:14 07/24/03 Thu
You're right that we've lost some of our self-restraint. I'm not
talking self-censorship, but just that voice in our head that
says, "Um, you sure you want to post that? You're
gonna get people all riled up, over nothing really that important,
and you are gonna have to deal with the fall-out."
(And I do think there's a difference between self-restraint and
I too have been avoiding the board lately, much as I love all
you guys, just cuz I can't handle the headache of getting involved
with those really long, contentious threads in which nothing gets
A couple of months ago, I got into a (relatively small) argument
with a couple of people for a post I thought was perfectly reasonable.
One poster came close to accusing me of lying to cover up my true
intentions (which I took offense to at the time). I wrote a civil
response in return, but one that pointedly asked why this poster
was pretty much attacking me (so it seemed). But after posting
it, I realised that all I was doing was furthering the argument,
so I asked Masq to delete my post. (Thank you so much, Masq!)
Now, I realise not everyone is as cautious as I am, one could
truthfully say I was being overly cautious, and that I should've
been direct and resolved the arugment.
But I realised that this poster was having personal problems and
so I am quite willing to forgive and forget. Even though we still
don't see eye-to-eye on things having to do with Buffy,
I don't want to cause more dissension on the board if it's within
me to let it go.
Anyway, that's my story. Not everybody will agree with me, I'm
sure, but that's what I did and I'm glad of it. I'm hoping to
return to the board more frequently and will do my best to engage
everyone in a calm, friendly, and appropriate manner :)
[> [> how about this?
-- anom, 23:55:42 07/24/03 Thu
Write out your ideal reply to the kind of post you're tempted
to have a knee-jerk response to. Make it well-reasoned, restrained,
objective, temperate; address the issues, not the other poster,
or address the fact that the poster hasn't done so. Cite Masq's
admirable words on free speech & social responsibility. You can
make your post generic, because the underlying impulses tend to
be the same, independent of the specific issue that brings them
out; then you can adapt it to whatever issue comes up. Write it
now, or sometime when you're not caught up in the heat of the
moment. Then when you read one of those posts that get your hackles
up--paste & post instead of responding in kind! It'll make you
look all wise & above the fray. I even think reading it before
posting might help ground us & keep us from going off in a way
we'd regret later. And it may even get the other poster to respond
more calmly, or at least realize how their post looks compared
How's that sound? I know it won't work for all of us (there's
no 1 thing that ever does), but it might for some of us.
[> [> [> It sounds
like a very inspired & positive idea! -- Wickedbuffy, 09:44:13
[> Still advocating selective
reading -- mamcu, 09:39:53 07/25/03 Fri
I really appreciate what Masq has said, and hope that everyone
reads it and takes it to heart. But often you can tell a good
bit about a post either by the topic or the poster or the nature
of the thread. Then don't read the ones that you know will upset
I have received negative messages mainly when I knew what I posted
would be controversial, and when I saw the extent of the controversy,
I dropped the topic--but I quickly learned not to read certain
It's sort of like having free caller ID--and using it.
[> [> I second that and
motion we all adjourn to the hot tub.. -- ZachsMind, 14:17:07
Mamcu is a voice of common sense amongst all these delightful
and intelligent and thought provoking minds which inadvertently
have gotten their panties in a bunch. I say we all unwind over
drinks, bury all hatchets on pumpkin heads, pummel swords into
saunas, and generally lighten up over all.
Lord knows I've ticked off my fair share of people in my time.
Last I checked I STILL couldn't post at the Cross & Stake under
my own name, and I can't even remember who or why I ticked off
anybody in there. Might've had something to do with Spike being
topless too much. I dunno. My opinions about Spike's hairless
chest (puh-LEEZ do we HAVE to see that again?) are infamous. I
think some Spike fans with ties to the mafia have put a price
on my head. Do I let this get me down? Do I let this bother me?
NO! I just don't watch The Sopranos cuz it makes me jumpy.
[> [> i agree--that's
my usual approach -- anom, 15:55:45 07/25/03 Fri
Then again, that's why I don't a very clear idea of how the problems
that have caused all this fuss originated....
made it to 'The Weakest Link' -- Diana, 15:18:07 07/23/03
The host just dismissed someone by calling her "Buffy the
I love when that happens.
poster (well-known casting spoiler) -- pellenaka, 15:37:06
The poster and the article contains spoilers for a rather well-known
new cast member.
It's almost like a movie poster. And it has a rather...erotic
[> re erotic:I just noticed
the 'A touch of Sunnydale' tag -- MsGiles, 07:02:24 07/24/03
on S7, the Scythe -- Celebaelin, 17:56:42 07/23/03 Wed
I couldn't help noticing the scythe references when they first
appeared on the board and I've been looking forward to getting
the full story.
I can now reveal, thanks to Marie, that the said implement is
not in fact a scythe at all. No, in fact, despite all claims to
the contrary what we have here is a Bardiche (albeit with a spike
on the butt end of the handle). The Bardiche in its' non-Buffyverse
military function was intended as a dual function flintlock/musket
rest and short(ish) poleaxe. The blade shape of the Bardiche (or
indeed any polearm) does not usually extend further down the shaft
beyond the fenestration formed by the second point of attachment.
The unusual spiking on this extended area of the axe blade somewhat
resembles the hooks placed on certain forms of Voulge-Guisarme
or Lochaber Axe but these weapons lack the fenestrated blade form,
it would certainly be more usual to have an 'unhorsing hook' on
the reverse side of the main axe blade, though possibly in addition
to a backward pointing spike on the main blade. The weapon is
short handled even for a Bardiche (although possibly not for a
Bardiche meant for SMG) but original simple weapon form was already
intended for a several methods of utilisation eg punching with
the blade with one hand in the fenestration, swinging like an
axe, clubbing like a staff. The hooks and the spike extend its'
versatility (if you're quick enough).
On balance I'm gonna stick my neck out and call it a Bardiche-Guisarme.
PS The longest laugh out loud I got out of any BtVS was in Him
when Buffy was about to fire a rocket launcher into Wood's office
and Spike runs up out of nowhere and tackles her and...pure silent
movie magic, slapstick with a capital SLA.
Wood vs Holtz
20:35:25 07/23/03 Wed
You might soon enough. When I put my son's body into the ground,
I had to open the coffin just to know that he really was in there.
You also may discover that a child's coffin, Mr. Wyndam-Price,
Hopefully this is the last time I ask you to post comments here.
But please, post them here.
[> Re: Wood vs Holtz
-- Caira, 23:31:56 07/23/03 Wed
Okay, two guys with major vengeance issues against certain souled
vampires. Good for them! But while one of them committed assisted
suicide in the process of putting them into practice, the other
chickened out after his life got seriously threatened. This coward,
this sellout must not be allowed to go on! Down with Principal
[> Ooh, tough one! --
HonorH, 23:54:29 07/23/03 Wed
Do I go with the hotness, or do I go with the one I think would
Yes, I think Holtz would win if he and Wood went head-to-head.
Holtz's crusade against Angel was longer-lasting and far more
devastating than Wood's against Spike. Holtz even survived Quar-toth.
He didn't die until he wanted to. So yeah, I'm going with Holtz,
the good man who allowed himself to be damned by his own bitterness.
But Wood's prettier.
[> AKA Style vs. Substance
-- ApOpHiS, 01:00:30 07/24/03 Thu
As a wise man once said (it was probably Sun Tzu, but I heard
it from the Kingpin in a Daredevil comic), "You must always
be willing to go further than your enemy." Holtz is simply
a harder bastard than Wood. Holtz tracked his foe through time,
geography, and culture shock. Holtz sacrificed his faith, his
soul, his body, his youth, and his life in order to spite one
man (yes, and Darla, but he didn't get much time with her). Wood
took one physical/verbal smackdown and slunk away with his metaphorical
tale betwixt his legs. While Holtz sacrificed everything for his
hatred, Wood got taken down by mommy issues. Age and brutality
takes youth and pop psychology in my book.
[> [> Not being a wise
MAN, I vote for the pretty one......;):):):):) -- Rufus, 01:29:04
And since Mr. Rufus has a profile I'll vote for the pretty one
twice....because I can. Oh, and I'll bet this Sun Tzu would have
voted for Cordy for the same reason I'm voting for Wood.....cause
if alive he'd like the pretty one too.
[> Has to be Holtz --
KdS, 04:15:09 07/24/03 Thu
Anyone dumb enough to take on a vampire in single combat is doomed.
[> Woodman has heart
-- MaeveRigan, 06:42:41 07/24/03 Thu
The similarities between Holtz and Wood are on the surface--their
vengeance vendettas. Their fighting skills are probably more or
less even, too, but Holtz's heart is long gone, empty or turned
to stone. Wood's is warm and beating. He doesn't give up. He turns
his crusade from the bitterly personal to embrace the world. And
that's why Wood will win.
[> This is evil, JBone...
-- JCC, 06:58:16 07/24/03 Thu
I hate both these guys. Holtz, for what he did to Connor (my favorite
And Wood, for being Wood.
So, I had to vote for Holtz. Thinking back to all Wood's annoying,
stuck-up speeches throughout S7, I had no choice.
[> Fantastic Match-up
-- cjl, 07:11:12 07/24/03 Thu
At first glance, you'd have to give Holtz the vote because of
his pure, fanatical devotion to vengeance, to the point of--and
even beyond--death. But for all of Holtz's brilliant strategizing,
how did things turn out for both characters? Holtz is despised
by everyone who remembers him, including the son he supposedly
loved; "Principal Wimp," abandoning vengeance, winds
up with Faith. The Woodman comes out on top. (Unless Faith explicity
tells him otherwise.) Nevertheless, I'm voting for Holtz, because
he was such a fantastic villain and because of Keith Szarabajka's
utterly cool voice. (It's a purely academic exercise, anyway;
Buffy will wipe out the winner in the next round.....)
[> Pretty son of a vampire
slayer or -- Anneth, 09:11:11 07/24/03 Thu
really pissed-off hairy guy? I was gonna vote for Holtz, no contest,
til I remembered that Wood has one thing going for him that Holtz
doesn't - Faith. And no one messes with her boyfriend. Wood and
Faith tag-team Holtz and march off, carrying that big-ass belt-thing.
Holtz, a shuddering mass of bruises, opens a portal to another
dimension and disappears through it, never to be seen again. Wood
[> Wood in honor of..
-- sdev, 16:41:01 07/24/03 Thu
his mother and mothers everywhere.
A few thoughts
-- Rahael, 03:55:56 07/24/03 Thu
Things seem to have gotten stressful of late. Arguments seem to
flare up, tempers have been lost, and relatively mild preferences
seem to have hardened into intractable positions. I was thinking
about all of this on the way to work this morning.
Maybe it was the fact that I was listening to Al Green, but I
just started remembering all the reasons I have to be grateful
to AtP. This is a note of appreciation.
Firstly, this is such a wonderful, addictive place to come hear
other people's thoughts about the shows, about serious philosophical
and ethical issues, about different perspectives on everything
from fashion to politics to deeply personal things. It's provocative,
I'm grateful to have been introduced to some really good friends,
even if I've never met them. I feel my life would be impoverished
without having known you all.
You have shown an amazing tolerance for my eccentricities, my
moments of weakness, my ability to completely lose perspective,
and have shamelessly encouraged me to new heights of over-analysis
of the like I'd thought I'd never reach!
So many of you have been the supportive hand on my elbow, even
if it's been invisible, at times of real pain, that it's impossible
to name all of you. Even if you didn't realise you were helping
me personally at all, simply posting to the board. Even if I have
never responded to you.
But I think I'd like to mention at least some of you, whom perhaps
I haven't thanked enough. I'd like to thank Masq, and not attach
the usual rider of 'for creating this great forum'. I'd like to
thank Masq for the fact that her intelligence, sense of humour
and general good-human beingness for helping us be the forum that
we are. I would like to be more like her, but I have only succeeded
in emulating her obsession with Connor. Plus she's one of the
coolest people alive.
I'd like to thank posters like Sophist, Caroline, Manwitch, Darby,
Malandanza, Mole and Mundus, Age, Ponygirl, Fresne, SK, Anom,
DarrenK, OnM, CJL, Dedalus, Scroll, Etrangere, CW, Random, LB,
Lady Starlight, Rufus - many many more. Walking through your minds
has been such a pleasure. So much sharp intelligence, humanity,
lol moments, so much warmth and sincerity. Just when I get complacent
about all of you, you'll completely astound me with a post.
I'd like to thank Arethusa and Aliera, and Redcat for being such
extraordinary people it's been my honour to know you. You guys
have made me feel, in a way that few do, that my attempt to claw
a space for me in the world, to rejoin the human race was not
only successful, but that there were others who understood what
it meant. I'd like to thank Dubdub because she was one who first
made me feel welcome here, and who helped me get together with
d'H and supported us when there was quite a bit of bother about
the two of us getting together! (How can one ever sufficiently
thank someone for that?)
I'd like to say how lucky I feel in my AtPO friends here in England.
Yesterday, I went home hugging TCH's poem, the one shining gleaming
thing I had. All of you, Yabby, KdS, Abby, TCH, you write so well!
You guys are so sane, intelligent and supportive and disagree
so kindly with me sometimes, and agree so eloquently at others.
Plus KdS and Yabby are such amusing, good company. We'll have
to invent reasons to meet up after the ME shows end!
I cannot dissimulate. I am pretty transparent here. I sometimes
discomfit myself with that. But let me tell you, that during my
time at ATP, I've become a better person. Even during board quarrels
that made me feel like I was being torn inside (mostly by myself),
I've later recognised the truths it made me face about myself.
Such has been the generosity here, I have been able to look at
my faults with a degree of newly found patience and kindness toward
myself. It is no lie that I have overcome significant mental barriers
in my mind as a result of realisations I have gained here. Roundabout
last Christmas, I was hit so hard by an epiphany that I sobbed
for 2 hours, (thank god the office was empty!), in a way that
I hadn't cried since the time I was 16 years old, read a George
Herbert poem and realised for the first time that I was no monster,
just ill and needed healing.
I'd like to thank to have a special separate thank you for OnM.
I'd like to say thank you to Wicked Buffy.
Sometimes I feel being so open here is a mistake. That I leave
myself open to things I shouldn't. That I'm silly to get so affected,
positively and negatively by such an inexplicable phenomenon.
But I can say now that it has literally transformed my life. You
guys may have saved it. You certainly changed my world.
Now, let's revive the Meme debate! Yeah!
[> Wow- incredibly healing.
Thank you -- Tchaikovsky, 04:02:38 07/24/03 Thu
[> So, this means that we're
all weapons of mass instruction? Gee.. -- OnM, 05:26:31
We like you too! Always did.
To paraphrase some geezer musicians I'm fond of:
And in the end
The art you take
Is equal to the art
[> I'd like to say thankyou
to you, Rahael -- MsGiles, 05:41:55 07/24/03 Thu
As a relative newbie, you made me feel welcome to the board first
off, and that really meant a lot. It's meant I've felt OK to hang
about, occasionally put my two penn'orth in, and not as if I'm
on the other side of some big glass plate (nose pressed against).
There's so much great stuff here, funny and serious, and your
posts are always thoughtful, perceptive, spreading calm when it's
[> [> Oh good!! Pleased
to hear that -- Rahael, 12:17:53 07/24/03 Thu
[> Re: A few thoughts
-- Darby, 06:10:07 07/24/03 Thu
This is a fun and rewarding community to commune with, but has
gotten a bit hot in these hazy days. This is a wonderful injection
of spiritual air conditioning. Very nicely stated, as always.
Maybe I will post that Season 7 Buffy-Spike conjecture I've been
thinking about after all...in the current atmosphere, the idea
of initiating threads in certain topics has started to feel trollish,
but I hate the feeling that I have to avoid something that could
be interesting and that I want considered intelligent feedback
[> Thanks Rah -- Masq,
07:30:45 07/24/03 Thu
For the kind words and for the very personal spin you put on them.
I'll have you know, though, I try to be more like you--intelligent,
immensely learned, and much more open about my opinions and experiences.
I tend to keep to the shadows even on my own board.
I'm so glad I have you and the other ATPoers as my friends. It's
really enriched my life to have this here, which is why, despite
the occassional frustration with this board, I still maintain
So now. New topics. Anyone?
[> Re: A few thoughts
-- ponygirl, 07:45:52 07/24/03 Thu
Coming to this board has made me understand the nature of community,
that it is particpatory, that no matter how much I would like
to stand on the sidelines and make comments I am a part of it,
and that anything worth caring about requires effort. All of the
people here have contributed to this community and they have made
it a wonderful place. A place worth hanging on to and working
for. I am sure whatever happens that won't change.
As for new topics, my new goal is to gay up the board. Woo hoo
let's all hop on the innuendo train!
[> Thanks to you. --
Arethusa, 07:54:15 07/24/03 Thu
The more I feel the less I can say, so now I am especially incoherent!
Anything I gave to you, you gave back tenfold. Thanks, from one
explorer in an uncharted wilderness to another.
Everywhere I go now I wonder if there is a fellow ATPOer somewhere
nearby. Istanbul is around every corner, and everyone I meet could
unknowingly be my friend. Thanks to you all, for showing me the
world isn't such a terrible place after all.
[> What's a 'meme'? [evil
grin] -- LittleBit [happily reaching for the tissues], 10:41:12
[> Re: thank you, Rah.
-- aliera, 20:15:17 07/24/03 Thu
In my smallest voice. I didn't expect to be mentioned here for
I feel that situation is quite in reverse.
I have received more than I ever gave, here, but also with you.
Regarding all the rest, I either have too many words or too few,
so will only say that I think the other posters, especially pony
girl, already said it better than I can.
[> [> I too have nothing
to say that would add, only sincere thanks -- Scroll, 21:36:01
oh no! I had a Harry Potter BtVS crossover dream
-- MsGiles, 03:56:21 07/24/03 Thu
I dreamed Dumbledore, with pointy hat, was telling me off for
illegally summoning demons with an Orb of Thesulah (I know, I
know, but this was a dream, OK?) The Orb was small, blue and plastic,
and had been left lying around in the staffroom (all modern, cheap,
scuffed, rundown) where it had been being used to travel back
in time to update blanks in the school diary. The demons (which
I seemed to be addicted to summoning) were clearly Monsters from
the Id, so I think there might have been a bit of Forbidden Planet
crossover as well. Can OBAFU get me for crossover dreaming and
subconscious canon violations?
[> On a somehwat related
note -- ponygirl, 07:55:04 07/24/03 Thu
A friend forwarded me this list of lines from the new Harry Potter
book that when taken out of context could have naughtier meanings...
[> [> hee hee! (muffled
snickering) -- MsGiles, 02:04:11 07/25/03 Fri
[> Re: oh no! I had a Harry
Potter BtVS crossover dream -- jdp, 20:30:42 07/24/03 Thu
absolutely awesome dream!!!! HP and BtVS, could it get any better?
& The Guardians (Execs/Viewers and Show Creators?) -- heywhynot,
08:26:36 07/24/03 Thu
In trying to defend Season 7 because I really enjoyed it, I ended
with a paragraph that a few people enjoyed revolving around the
fact season 7 was not just about power within the show but regarding
the show. I likened us viewers to the Watchers. A few people enjoyed
it & I have thought about it somemore.
So I will place my ideas out there to be discussed, because well
I am a biochemist and others say things so much better than I
and all of you come up with some pretty inspired ideas that I
can only hope to match.
Watcher's Council: TV execs
Watchers: Us the viewers
Guardians: Joss & Gang
Slayer(s): The show(s) & eventually us?
Remember it has been about power. I included what I stated before
(typos and all).
"To think of it the rules that many shows follow were openly
mocked and turned on their head by BtVS. Who is to say that a
plot point must be obviously concluded? The rules of TV. Why do
we want them to be? Because those are the rules of good TV we
are told. Why does every single build-up on a TV show must have
a major pay-off? Because that is what we are taught are the rules
of TV. Why does do words by a dead character have to pay off big
on BtVS? Because that are the rules we have established in our
minds regarding the show.
Season 7 was about power on so many levels including with regards
to the show. The power to determine how the show ended was not
in our hands, nor was it ever really in our hands. Our powers
were to watch or not, to praise, critique, complain but in the
end only Joss really had the power of creation regarding Buffy.
Each of us has the power to create our own Buffy's in our heads,
but the Buffy we all collectively watched was under his power.
This season I think especially had the creators having fun playing
around with the watchers (us). In a manner of speaking we have
always been the Watcher's Council trying to dictate what a Slayer
should be and act. Think about the whole Giles not touching anything,
the BE, "Joyce's" words, etc. we all jumped around with
our theories but in the end what was to come of it all lay in
the hands of ME not ours. We were constantly reminded this season
of this fact, we did not have the power. But in the end what happened?
The story of Buffy did not end. It was left open ended. The limits
placed upon us as watchers were let go. The watcher's council
was destroyed like in the show. We were empowered to take Buffy's
character were we wanted."
[> I really like this.
-- Sophist, 08:36:40 07/24/03 Thu
[> 'Official' sanction for
your theory -- MaeveRigan, 11:47:20 07/24/03 Thu
If I recall correctly, someone asked Joss what "watchers"
should do with their Buffy fixation now that the series had ended.
His reply: "Write fan-fiction." There you go--the creator's
blessing to "take the character[s] where [you want]."
IMHO, the OBAFU limits still apply, but that's just me, putting
in a plug for the commendable work of HonorH and her crew.
[> Re: The Watchers & The
Guardians (Execs/Viewers and Show Creators?) -- Rina, 14:37:38
I love the way your mind works.
-- Anneth, 10:53:01 07/24/03 Thu
Seeing as the subject of food and food-as-a-metaphor has popped
up a lot recently, both in chat and on the board, it might be
useful to give food the attention it deserves by devoting an entire
thread to it.
So here's the eternal question: if Buffy is cookie-dough, what
is everyone else?
Diana and I spent at least a quarter of a minute debating who
is like cheesecake; she argues that Buffy is more cheesecake-like
than cookie-dough-like, while I maintain that of every character,
Riley has the most in common with that particular delectable.
(Italian-style cheesecake, with a gooey middle, to be exact.)
He's firm on the outside, but has the soul of a poet (well, sorta)
when it comes to the woman he loves. Only his 'poetry' is more
'cheesy' and heartfelt than firm and well-thought-out - thus,
he has a gooey center. Also, he's a solid guy; one slice of him
leaves the consumer feeling contentedly full for hours. Whereas
some of the more diminutive of the characters might have more
in common with, say, a lettuce leaf, Riley is a nummy caloric
treat. Ergo, Riley is cheesecake.
Lilah, of course, is a tall, cool drink of water.
[> Re: Comestibles --
btvsk8, 14:15:13 07/24/03 Thu
Ooh, nice topic!
Well Giles is obviously a Jaffa Cake (see http://www.boilsandblindingtorment.com/jaffacakes.htm)
Xander- this one was easy- bread (brown). He is the staple food
of the scoobs, wholesome and comforting.
Willow- mmm, I'm having problems with this one. What can capture
her sweet wholesomeness as well as her power?
Spike- adaptable, snarky and too much for some. I think he's (ironically)
Andrew is an ice lolly.
Dawn? A pancake.
Riley- a twinkie (no substance)
brain now not functioning- over to you....
[> [> Willow is easy-
Chocolate! -- Egak,
22:58:28 07/24/03 Thu
[> Heh, Anneth, great topic.
Wonder what HonorH thinks about Wood. -- Random, 14:20:19
[> Cheesecake, cheesecake,
CHEESECAKE!!!! -- Diana, 15:09:30 07/24/03 Thu
EVERYONE is cheesecake, yummy doctor prescribed cheesecake. Yes,
my doctor actually prescribed cheesecake to me. So did my dietician.
I am underweight and I need the calories and protein. Just like
I need my fix of Buffy. It helps put/keep weight on me and gives
me just what I need. I want to devour every character and am strickly
There are all sorts of cheesecakes. For a nice list see:
There is something for every character in that list.
I'm really not much of a cookie person (except for my Refrainment
biscuits), so it has to be CHEESECAKE!!!!
[> Willow -- jdp, 20:32:43
So Willow would be an Everlasting Gobstopper(?) Not the movie
ones, but the real life candy ones. Why? Well she has so many
sweet and colorful layers, but when you get to the middle, she
is a little tart!!! Tee hee, I love Willow!
[> Angel-cake? -- MsGiles,
02:37:33 07/25/03 Fri
no, seriously, I'll try Anya. She's snarky, with some underlying
bitterness there. Overly sticky on the surface, though, practically
gluey, the way she sticks to Xander, and to the Magic Box. Some
spiky bits to watch out for as Dawn found out. I would think perhaps
some kind of exotic cocktail, with a top layer of sweet Midori
or Benedictine, over a base of gin and angostura bitters, stuck
through with cocktail sticks bearing crystallised fruit and pickled
Much the sort of thing Andrew would drink, really
[> Willow is a prawn Korma
-- Celebaelin, 04:10:01 07/25/03 Fri
With a stack of popadoms THIS high and about a dozen different
relishes. And a side salad with honey and mustard dressing.
And for starters mmmmm toasted garlic bread with melted stilton
and carrot and coriander soup with ground ginger and cumin.
I'm staying with ground ginger but there's some doubt in my mind
that this should be small slivers of pickled stem ginger.
[> [> Scooby menus (a
work in progress) -- Celebaelin, 07:37:39 07/25/03 Fri
12 oz. fillet steak with all the usual stuff (and as many trips
to the salad bar as you want)
First Banana Split - Banana with blackcurrant ice cream, butterscotch
sauce and whipped cream sprinkled with space dust.
Pitta bread and humus
Venison Wellingtonesque - Fillet of venison stuffed with fois
gras, raspberries and blackberries and baked in flakey pastry.
Served with leeks braised in salted butter, haricot vert and either
croquette potatoes or fries.
[> [> [> all available
in Helens Kitchen? -- MsGiles, 08:28:29 07/25/03 Fri
[> Spike -- Alison,
08:49:22 07/25/03 Fri
Would be orange juice- with the pulp. Sweet, yet tangy, refreshing,
and lots of texture.
And Angel...might be asparagus. Not quite sure why, except that
I like both, and he seems like the asparagus type.
[> Wes & Faith -- Anneth,
14:36:10 07/25/03 Fri
Wes is St. Louis Gooey Buttercake, with raspberry compote. St.
Louis Gooey Buttercake is a thick, triangularish concoction of
croissants that have been ripped to shreds, soaked overnight in
butter, and then pressed back together to make something with
the density of a scone. Wes, much like St. Louis Gooey Buttercake,
began as something flakey and insubstantial, and evolved (after
great physical discomfort) into something much more substantial
and filling. The raspberry compote, of course, is the metaphorical
representation of his yummy stubble.
Faith is devil's food cake - dark, alluring, and sinful. You'll
more than enjoy delicious devil's food cake Faith tonight, but
wake up regretting the indulgence tomorrow morning.
piece to Season 5: Spike's Dream -- Brian, 12:03:02 07/24/03
Since Voy ate the original in less than 10 minutes, I am going
to try to repost this.
DREAMING OF BUFFY
In my dark world, I have a dream.
A dream of a blonde girl.
She is all that I can see, for darkness is all round.
I live in darkness: I am the darkness.
She is the only light.
She dances, and her motion sparks beams of light into the darkness,
Each beam seems to tell an ancient story:
A story of tooth and fang,
The dark lady of my lost eternity.
Blood pounding in the chase,
Cruel laugh and cruel hunger,
Blood pouring from the hunt.
I howl my madness in the midnight air.
I howl in triumph, but I taste only despair.
I am lost in the darkness; I am the darkness.
She moves towards me, touching me
And where she touches, my lips, my eyes, my face, my neck, my
I feel cool comfort,
Soft energy that is a caress across my soul.
My soul in the darkness: I am the darkness.
I reach for her in the darkness,
But she slides through my fingers like quicksilver.
She smiles at her conquest,
And if I could bow, I would.
If I could hope, I would.
But my salvation is past,
And I must reap only the reward of darkness: I am the darkness.
If I could see my face,
I would imagine my smile,
My dark smile made bright
By the comfort of my sacrifice,
My surrender to the darkness; I am the darkness.
But my dark dream of the blonde girl abruptly ends,
And I wake to screaming, blinding whiteness,
And an old friend.
[> Re: Taking a note from
Rob -- Brian, 14:06:41 07/24/03 Thu
[> [> Re: Avast, Voynak
Demon, and spare the child of sweated imagination -- Brian,
14:14:14 07/24/03 Thu
[> That was lovely, Brian.
-- LadyStarlight, 15:05:09 07/24/03 Thu
[> [> Re: Thanks, LS.
I'm glad you liked it. -- Brian, 16:15:44 07/24/03 Thu
[> Beautiful poetry, Brian
-- LittleBit, 17:38:59 07/24/03 Thu
[> [> Re: Thanks LB.
Much appreciated. -- Brian, 21:40:09 07/24/03 Thu
[> Oh, I like that one
-- Rufus, 22:50:58 07/24/03 Thu
[> nice poem! -- MsGiles,
03:33:14 07/25/03 Fri
[> [> Re: Thank you!
-- Brian, 05:29:31 07/25/03 Fri
[> Very nice! I'm keeping
this one. -- Dariel, 13:51:44 07/25/03 Fri
I have a dream....
(season 5 unspoiled speculation, only well-known casting spoiler)
-- Masq, 13:42:18 07/24/03 Thu
(With apologies to MLK)
And in that dream, season 5 goes a little bit like this:
(caveat: this is not my ideal season 5. It is constrained by what
ME left us with)
The gang has been settling into the (allegedly) abandoned offices
of Wolfram and Hart over the summer when by some inexplicable
metaphysical whats-a-majig that not even Masquerade can explain,
Spike returns from the realms of the hereafter.
But instead of becoming a thorn in the side of the A.I. gang,
or even mail-room boy, he and Angel start to bond over Buffy-lossage
("I don't want to date either of you lame pointy-bitey...
guys! But I wouldn't mind a nice oil-wrestling match!" -Buffy,
"Chosen") and bad-guy butt kicking. In fact, they spend
so much time together that Angel becomes estranged from the gang
(so what else is new), forcing the gang, who are busy balancing
evil-fighting against the temptations of having too many goodies,
to stage an intervention with him in an attempt to discover the
source of his out-of-character behavior.
Meanwhile, out in fandom land, the new friendship of Angel and
Spike has Angel-fans and Spike-fans (and those odd creatures,
fansofboth VWAS) holding hands with each other in long human chains
and singing Kumbaya-ya. All is well on the internet boards.
The gang discover that Angel and Spike have bonded not only over
the end of their Buffy rivalry (well, not exactly, they enjoy
having little tiffs: "She'll come back to me", "No,
she'll come back to me") and their delight in kicking
demon butt, but their mutual soul-having. The gang's intervention
reveals that Spike needs a vampire-with-a-soul-buddy to help him
in his continuing quest for his new identity. And Angel has latched
onto grand-childe Spike to fill the void left over the loss of
"Since when do you have a son?"
At this point, Angel fills them in on the true events of Seasons
3 and 4. The gang is skeptical until Wesley realizes that this
story fills in the gaping plot-holes in his life (spackle,
spackle), like why he has an inexplicable sense of hostility
towards and detachment from the gang, most especially Angel. And
why he would EVER have gotten together with Lilah, hotness notwithstanding.
This February-sweeps revelation is followed by a brief return
of Angel's aforementioned son in a stand-alone episode in which
nothing is resolved. Then there's this whole big season-ending
arc with some Big Bad or other, and somehow it can only be defeated
by a knock-down brawl which strangely resembles the promised Spike-Angel-BigBad
oil wrestling match.
Meanwhile, back in fandom land, the peace and tranquility and
happiness of the fans has lead to a huge boost in the ratings,
leading to renewal for a sixth season, which features, among other
things, a big arc in which my
little baby boo-boo returns with a much better disposition
and a better hair-cut and a renewed need to kick demon booty.
First though, he gives his dad a kick in the arse for old time's
sake and for forcing him to live yet another lie.
Oh yeah, and Season 5 is also full of interesting twists and turns
for the intrepid A.I gang: Wesley, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne. But
that's a spooculation for another day.
Oh, and by the way... I am totally unspoiled for S. 5 (mostly
'coz I'm still waiting to wake up and find out the season 4 finale
was all just a really weird dream I had) except for the obvious
WKCS. So mark real spoilers please!
[> A beautiful dream!
-- ponygirl, 14:03:46 07/24/03 Thu
And with oils!
Ooh! And Wesley journeys to hell to try to bring back Lilah. He
finds her there and they have the sex of the damned. Of course
in true Orpheus fashion Wes messes up and Lilah has to
stay behind, a fate she accepts with a shrug, a smile and a "nice
[> [> Is there oil involved
in that, too? -- Masq, 14:08:07 07/24/03 Thu
[> [> [> Re: Lilah
& Spike -- Brian, 14:26:22 07/24/03 Thu
Lilah, realizing that Spike has a soul, too, tries to corrupt
him to the dark side, and there will be lots of hot oil action,
carnage, and general fun throughout the season.
Of course, Lilah's plan backfires, and...Season 6
[> LMAO! -- Caroline,
18:04:40 07/24/03 Thu
Love, love, love this. Kudos and a glass of red to Masq!
[> [> Re: LMAO! --
Caroline, 18:06:13 07/24/03 Thu
Love, love, love this. Kudos and a glass of red to Masq!!!
[> My only nagging question
from all this... -- Rook, 10:51:22 07/25/03 Fri
Why does everyone seem to hate Connor's hair? IMO Connor's hair
is second only to Oz. And really, it's much metter than that sticky
straight up stuff his dad has.
[> [> I never disliked
Connor's hair -- Masq, 12:11:52 07/25/03 Fri
The actor, IMO, looks much better with long hair than short. But
other people have expressed dislike with it, so I threw that in
for humor's sake.
It did bug me how his hair was always in his face, though. I think
that's a maternal instinct thing. "Get your hair out of your
face, young man!"
[> [> [> Re: I never
disliked Connor's hair -- aliera, 19:06:07 07/25/03 Fri
A mark of your true affection... just teasing!
It does catch my attention though since the guys I know are really
into the short look. Not only does it set Connor apart a statement
of differentness, no time or concern for the hair dresser; but,
it (for me) heightened the almost Madonna like quality of his
bone structure and facial features.
Teens I know remarked on his lack of style in clothes too. Enough
like to fit the times (not dated) but enough out of sync that
there was a Stranger in a Strange Land effect. I'm not a good
judge here so maybe that's just a personal take from another viewer.
[> Another nagging question
-- Dariel, 13:48:44 07/25/03 Fri
Where will we get our snarkage quota, if not from Angel and Spike?
[> [> I for one, never
cared for snark -- Masq, 15:52:59 07/25/03 Fri
I like attitude with some teeth: Gunn, Connor, Cordelia.
Of course, if Lilah's around at all, there will be garden-variety
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