July 2003 posts

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What the HELL is going on? -- dub (and no, I'm not smiling, or winking), 19:43:33 07/28/03 Mon

Okay, I've made the fairly regular foray into chat since I've left the board, just to keep up with people I wouldn't talk to otherwise, check in, that kind of thing.

Tonight, a young man (I think) using the nick Giles, someone who posted a wonderful farewell note to me when I left, asked me how it felt to have stabbed a good friend in the back. Naturally, I asked him what he meant, and he replied that this was what I had done to ATPoBtVS--stabbed it, and by extension Masq and all of you, in the back. I don't think he meant by leaving. I think he was referring to the Angel after Spike board.

When I asked him to clarify some things he abruptly logged out of chat. Several other posters then tried to figure out what/why he was talking about this, where he got this idea, and Diana piped in with, "You shouldn't be talking about him behind his back, you're all a bunch of shits."

When Giles later returned and I again tried to get clarification, Diana advised him to ignore me (and Rufus, and others) because if the treatment she'd received from "the ladies was any indication..."

Okay, look, this had all gone away as far as I'm concerned. The other board seems to be working out well. Some people feel it's an oasis from the anti-Spike negativity on this board. We all know where that came from. Masq graciously gave the board a link, and we link back to this board and the ATPoBtVS site as well. I say we, because the other board was, in fact, Rufus's idea, and I agreed to co-moderate it and build it.

Apparently, having things running on a even keel with a workable compromise having been reaching is not to the liking of those who cannot survive without constant attention and uproar. I am appalled at the behaviour I witnessed in chat tonight. Bottom line--I won't be going there anymore either.

[> Wow...that's way too much drama for a 'Buffy' posting board... -- Seriously, 19:47:45 07/28/03 Mon

[> [> It's not just another Buffy Board, though. It's practically a village. -- WB, 21:15:09 07/28/03 Mon

[> Not To be rude but..... -- Giles, 19:52:30 07/28/03 Mon

werent you the one who called Di a "spoile, puerile, self indulgent brat"?

[> [> Giles... -- Rufus, 20:04:41 07/28/03 Mon

Dub is right....I started the Angel after Spike board, it was my idea. If you have any questions feel free to mail me. If you look at the links line Angel after Spike is up there just like the link to the Trollop board.

[> [> from archives.....The Spike effect or explanation for the new board -- Rufus, 20:24:40 07/28/03 Mon


Date Posted: 01:39:35 07/24/03 Thu
Author: Rufus
Subject: The Spike effect........new board.

Things have been tense around here and one reason is the addition of Spike to the cast of Angel. There are probobly posters who thought...with Buffy gone they would finally see the end of the continual posts about Spike....then fate stepped in and Spike is going to be a big part of Angel the Series.

So, cause I do understand that some posters here feel a bit of Spike fatigue, dub and I have started a board for posters partial to Spike who are going to tune into Angel cause the dead never seem to stay dead in the Buffyverse.

The new board is called Angel after Spike. This board isn't meant to be competition for this one but a complement that offers a few perks......one, a place for Spike fans to post about the character they love without having fights break out...two, the bonus for Angel fans of more space for posts about Angel on this board. People can feel free to visit both boards without having to feel loyalty to just one.

[> [> [> I've been enjoying both boards:-) -- Maura, 20:35:21 07/28/03 Mon

[> [> [> I like the new board. it's a great idea -- luvthistle1, 23:58:48 07/28/03 Mon

[> A plea for civility from a Spike hater... -- Q, 21:10:08 07/28/03 Mon

I, like the now infamous salon.com article, believe 100% that the character of Spike has dragged the show into the quagmire of regular TV fare...

That is why I PURPOSELY stay away from said board... It seemed like a great idea to me to ease tension, so people could say what they wanted without us folks disgusted with what Spike did to our show attacking.

Of course it only works if we don't go over there looking for a fight.

It's the same reason that I, as a progressive American voter refuse to listen to Rush Limbaugh... Why work myself up like that?

So I ask my fellow Spike loathers, to please stay out of the fray, and lets have a little more civility on the boards, huh?

[> Re: What the HELL is going on? -- Malandanza, 21:27:13 07/28/03 Mon

"Okay, look, this had all gone away as far as I'm concerned. The other board seems to be working out well. Some people feel it's an oasis from the anti-Spike negativity on this board. We all know where that came from. Masq graciously gave the board a link, and we link back to this board and the ATPoBtVS site as well. I say we, because the other board was, in fact, Rufus's idea, and I agreed to co-moderate it and build it."

I don't think there's been any diminution in posts at ATPoBtVS; in fact, without all consuming Spike posts, there even seems to be more variety and a greater willingness to participate by posters who had previously avoided such threads. I doubt very much that Masq would prefer you move Spike back to this board, given her dislike of ATPoStVSS. I peeked at your board a couple of times expecting to see nothing but We Hate Spike Haters! posts (particularly DIana/Lunasea), but didn't see anything derogatory in the posts that I skimmed. Civility seems to have returned to this board and is ensconced in yours, as well. All things considered, I think the split was advantageous to both groups. Sort of like when Buffy split into BtVS and AtS -- Buffy improved when Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley left and AtS became quite good in its own right, with Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley able to break free of the Mission's Boyfriend, Wicked Stepsister, and Buffoon roles. And anyone from this board who wishes to participate in Spike as a Gothic Hero / Courtly Lover / Embodiment of all Feminine Virtues threads can still do so with the click of a mouse. Everyone wins -- what's the problem?

As for the feud between Diana (and her adherents) and you, s'kat, rufus, and whoever else is in the We Hate Diana club, I'd agree with Cordelia from WSWB, spank your inner moppet and get over it. Both sides. Angel is kewler than Spike on this board, and Spike is hotter than Angel on yours. What's left to argue about?

[> [> EXCUSE ME?? -- s'kat, 21:55:37 07/28/03 Mon

Excuse me, Mal, but I NEVER said anything to warrant this.
But posts like this are why I left this board and why
I may never come back!

I clearly remember stating that no one should take my leaving personally.

That was out of line.

Goodbye. I'm gone.

[> [> [> Can I ask why people are upset? -- Finn Mac Cool, 23:52:15 07/28/03 Mon

I've been reading through the board and the archives, and here's what I've managed to gather:

People seem to think there's a big, hot-tempered string of arguments over characters (particularly Spike) that they like or dislike.

Notice I said people seem to "think" there are all these arguments. But, for the life of me, I just haven't been able to find them. I've found people talking about the effect the arguments are having on the fandom, how they're leaving the board over it, or how things are so much different, but I can't find threads that supposedly started all of this. Sure, there are posts by people who love or hate certain characters, people who agree or disagree with the writers' decisions, and the like. But I just don't see how they're any different from what's always been on the board (or at least has been since I came to it). I have searched, and searched, and searched and haven't been able to find any hot-tempered arguments or offensive statements. So, I do have to ask, why is everyone so upset? Where are these viscious arguments everyone's talking about? Except for the one mentioned happening in chat, no specific arguments have been referenced which fall outside this board's usual type of debate. So, please, help a poor, confused poster who just can't figure out why everyone's getting so upset.

[> [> [> [> Re: Can I ask why people are upset? -- skpe, 07:51:26 07/29/03 Tue

I'm with Finn Mac Cool I lurk hear on a daily bases and I have to say I haven't seen anything that I thought was a flame war. I know I am obtuse but where was the fire?

[> [> [> [> Re: Can I ask why people are upset? -- Malandanza, 07:54:01 07/29/03 Tue

I've been posting at ATPoBtVS for a long time -- longer than rufus, but not as long as OnM (and, no, this isn't a prelude to an "I'm leaving because everyone is mean to me" speech). In that time, I have seen a number of posters driven from the board. The most memorable was Boke, of course, and I regret my own participation in that affair. Not that I believe Boke should have stayed -- he was so socially inept that he offended, well, basically everyone but Brian -- but I don't think he intended to offend anyone. It would have been nice if a few more people had been civil to him (or had there been a little less incivility). There was also Thalia -- gone because she advanced the rather bizarre theory that AtS was like a Southern plantation, with Angel as the owner, Wesley as the overseer, and Gunn as the slave. vhD left after making a few too many personal attacks and alienating every one who might otherwise has defended him (in the end, only ete asked him to stay). To a certain extent, these posters invited their own exclusion, but there have been others where the case was not so clear.

The Bonhoeffer groupies left after being ridiculed, not for their content, but for their short and choppy sentences, posting style, and repetitive views (and possible polynymity). However, if not for them, I would never had heard about this rather interesting and tragic martyr. I'm not saying I was sorry to see them go, but I am sorry they were driven away. Sloan was another person driven away -- this time for promoting the TWIZ transcript site. It's not that she was associated with TWIZ (we had had a rash of TWIZ spamming before she arrived) but that she was a fan of the transcript site and, in addition to her other comments in her posts, she would often mention that TWIZ was a great site (much as many of us have done with psyche). She tried to come back a few times, but her posts quickly became confrontational, and left for good (signing one of her last posts as "Sloan, the girl everyone loves to hate"). In Sloan's case, I regret not speaking up for her or, at least, not making positive responses to her posts as an attempt to offset the negative "we hate TWIZ and people who like TWIZ" posts. I believe that she genuinely wanted to be part of our community. There was a rash of "troll slaying" for a while -- with the trollbot and, later, the "hello"bot (which served the same function). During this time, ALLFORBUFFY made one of his(?) erratic driveby postings (which is why I mentioned how long I've been here -- as long as I have been a part of this community I can recall ALLFORBUFFY posts). Recent ATPoBtVS'ers (unfamiliar with the past posting history) decided ALLFORBUFFY was a troll and immediately set about attacking him. I have not seen him since.

And I see the current problems between Diana/Lunasea and her detractors as just the next chapter in the virtual lynchings and that is what I find offensive. A dozen posters swinging their virtual baseball bats at a single poster is not a debate.

[> [> [> [> [> Thank you very much -- Diana, 08:26:54 07/29/03 Tue

I would like to thank everyone who has voiced their support for me, but I would like to ask if this can be taken off board. I have enclosed my email, if anyone wants to email me either to support or bash me. Bashers can vent, but don't expect a response.

Anyone who is worried about me leaving, don't. I won't. Not over a handful of people that dislike my personality. There is no need to say anything on the board to make sure I don't leave or feel ganged up on. Feel free to say it in chat though :-)

This board isn't even a democracy. It is pretty much anarchy, but isn't that how we like it? A lot of this situation has come from people trying to control the tone of the board/the atmosphere of the community/the subject matter etc. I am not innocent of this myself. I have learned one thing since then though. If people want to bash me or the story I love so much, go for it. It is just proof of what a great board this is. The best way to honor the American flag is to let someone burn it.

My last attempt to control the situation is to ask that no one pour gasoline on it on my behalf. Email me if you want to show your support or meet me in chat. I'm usually there.

One show is sort of gone (Buffy'll be back eventually for at least one more episode and there is the movies). The writers are doing god knows what to the story/characters right now. We have no control over this. The only thing we have control over is how each one of us acts. Joss unlocked our Potential. Let's put it to good use. It isn't about power, but how we use it. Let's not use it to make the situation worse.

Thank you.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Can I ask why people are upset? -- Rufus, 13:46:30 07/29/03 Tue

And I see the current problems between Diana/Lunasea and her detractors as just the next chapter in the virtual lynchings and that is what I find offensive. A dozen posters swinging their virtual baseball bats at a single poster is not a debate.

Mal, when you know all the facts comment, but since you don't I suggest you wonder why any poster would attract any negative reaction before you decide everyone else is wrong. No one in this situation is 100% blameless.

[> [> [> [> Finn: E-mail me and I'll do my best to explain it. -- Sophist, 08:10:07 07/29/03 Tue

I don't think a public statement would be very helpful.

[> [> [> [> Finn, I'm right there with you! -- Sheri, 11:10:01 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Just keep in mind, there are quite a view different POVs about it all. No one speaks for all. -- WickedBuffy ::handing you a shaker of salt::, 15:43:27 07/29/03 Tue

I made a wish on a star last night that a magical new Board appeared. And on it everyone who was hurt or angry or confused or whatever could air their questions, clear up misunderstandings, clarify accusations, dispell untruths, illuminate innocence, put harmful rumors to rest, dispell false perceptions and generally talk it out. Posts based on heresay or someone elses experiences immediately disappeared. Everyone took accountibility for themselves and how they were personally involved or affected.

People even apologized.

[> [> I'm not a SpikeFanatic.That's not why I post over there. -- WickedBuffy, 22:12:44 07/28/03 Mon

There's nothing derrogatory in the posts over there because no one is aiming at anyone else. Or making up grade school "side" melodrama. Or any other weird stuff. Or insulting anyone. Or whispering behind backs and then pretending like they aren't. Everyone knows that's not cool, and if you have a gripe with someone, you show your integrity and step up to deal with it like an adult. (I'd usually say face to face, but here it would probably be in email.)

dub and Rufus were making a sincere positive step in creating peace. It's this one's "sibling". Minus the rivalry. Built with complete respect for Masq. and what she's created here. Everyone is on everyone else's "side". Discussing, arguing, agreeing, whatever. Like this one was and will be again. ::crossing fingers for luck::

We aren't a different group. We're part of this group, just doig some posting over there --->

[> Do we redeem or codemn by our interaction? -- shadowkat ( trying for peace), 23:32:41 07/28/03 Mon

I posted some of this on Angel After Spike Board and will place it here as well, and I hope it makes sense. It's my attempt to express a growing concern about how "fandom" appears to have denigrated over time. Instead of appreciating what is wonderful and likeable and philosophical in the shows, or even just doing critiques of plot, we seem to be spending an awful lot of time ranting about things we don't like about it.

It is 1:54 am in the morning my time and I should go to bed, but am too worked up to sleep. I'm wondering if I'm losing it. I used to really love the online fandom. It seemed warm, tolerant, kind, and even though we didn't always agree - overall supportive. I've made some close friends here. And a good percentage of them don't like the same characters I do. They like me. And I like them. The characters have zip to do with it.

But now the Board is just getting mean and insane. So insane, I've wondered if I've lost it? The Spikehaters have come awfully close to making me despise Angel, I've stopped reading their posts. I've never seen such cruel viceral posts. (Yes, we know some of you blame Spike for ruining Buffy, but there are just as many people who blame Andrew or Wood. Or people who didn't bother with Buffy until Spike showed up. That's right, shocking as it might seem to you, there is actually a large group of sane fans who didn't start watching or enjoying Btvs until after OmWF. Have a little respect for them, okay?)But it's not just the Spikehaters. The Angelhaters make me despise well them. Then there's the Buffy haters who make me wonder why I ever bothered coming online or more to the point why these people do. And the Willow haters who make me wonder if the world is filled with Warren wannabes. And I just feel angry and frustrated. It's a shame too - since there are so many cool philosophical posts we've had on this board and elsewhere. We used to critically discuss the characters, we used to talk about philosophy, now if someone doesn't agree with use we stoop to name-calling, bashing, clever satire &wit at their expense, and condescension. We think this makes us feel superior, I don't know about you but it makes me feel ashamed. Deeply. Hate when we get down to it does nothing but breed more hate and contempt and cruelty.

Solitude1056 wrote an amazing essay on ATP, but has anyone really looked at it or responded? Or spent time thinking about it? It's brilliant and s/he hasn't posted in ages...I want to see more of those types of essays!!
OR what about that wonderful discussion between manwitch, sophist, caroline and random? Or Zachsmind's fanatastic posts? And on this board our discussions about Myers Briggs and Ra-tat?? I've thought about writing one of my own essays - on Cordelia's journey (zip to do with Spike), but I nixed it, b/c I'm now afraid of the responses I'd get. How many lurkers probably feel the same?

Instead we waste board space talking about posters or fans or characters we despise?? Is this necessary? I left Atp because of this...I felt myself begin to go there. And I was ashamed. That's why I left. But I need the community right now, because I'm going through a tough time and as Zachsmind stated so well, it's a welcome respite from an incredibly frustrating job search. If you've ever suffered through one, you know whereof I speak, if you haven't? I pray you never do. But it is no excuse for me to be trollish, so I've tried to be careful. My apologies if that hasn't come across.

Right now I'm wondering if I made a mistake and should have kept to my original plan and left the online Btvs/Ats fan community completely. I'm wondering if I want that quote at the top of the board. I used to be proud of it.

Is it just me or have the online boards gone nuts after Btvs ended? Fights break out every other week now on ATP. Fights keep breaking out on ASSB and TWoP and numerous other non-character specific boards. I've seen BAPS have to reign people in. And that's character specific. They are having bashing Buffy/Btvs/ME posts to the extent I can barely read them and it's making me worry about Angel S5.

The fights between B/A and B/S are getting downright vicious. Am I alone in not wanting Buffy with either vamp and annoyed at ME for suggesting a triangle? Right now, I wish she'd married Riley. Or they'd gone with B/X. I'm also starting to wish Angel was cancelled.


Am I imagining this craziness?

Or am I just over-reacting due to the lateness of the hour, exhaustion, frustration and overall depression?

M.L. Von Franz says we redeem ourselves through our interactions with each other, I'm beginning to wonder if that is really true. OR can it also be the reverse? That we condemn? Or just after a while drive each other nuts with our obsessions and spite?


[> [> Oops - some typos -- sk, 23:36:41 07/28/03 Mon

The myers-briggs and Ra-tat discussion is on Angel After Spike board. Cool discussion by the way.

Also should be condemn not codemn. It's 2:46 am now and should go to bed.

Here's hoping I don't get flamed.

[> [> We sometimes condemn before we get to the redemption... -- Rufus, 00:07:08 07/29/03 Tue

This is why it's so important that we interact with each other at all. The tension out there isn't limited to this board specially regarding Spike right now. Without new episodes to discuss there is a tendancy to borrow trouble and worry about how all the characters will fare come the season premiere. There is a bit of a split in fandom between those who like Spike and those who wish we would talk about someone, anyone, but Spike. This is why we started the other board to get people who wanted to talk about Spike and the other characters giving more room for all of us to talk.

Just because we had an arguement tonight doesn't mean we can never be friends again or have to leave. There are two boards one that happens to be a bit more devoted to Spike....everyone is welcome at both. Remember what Giles said to Willow in season five.....from Tough Love

Willow leans on the counter still looking sad. Giles notices her expression.

GILES: You all right?


GILES: Ah yes, because your good mood is both obvious and contagious.

WILLOW: I had a fight with Tara. It was awful.

GILES: Oh, I'm sorry. (takes the box and walks toward the shelves behind the counter)

WILLOW: (OS) Me too.

GILES: You two don't quarrel much, do you?

WILLOW: Never. Until today.

GILES: Well, now it's over.

WILLOW: (very upset) Over? How can it be over? I just found her!

GILES: The quarrel is over.

WILLOW: (quieter) Oh. Yeah.

GILES: Uh, you'll feel better when you've made your apologies and you'll know that you can fight without the world ending. (walks toward the rear door) I know it all seems bleak now, but as they say, this too...

We've (some board members) had a quarrel.....but the world doesn't have to be over unless we allow that to happen. It's in how we recover from adversity that we eventually reach that redemption that MLVF talks about in her quote.

[> [> [> Thanks Rufus -- Rahael, 06:17:32 07/29/03 Tue

We spend a lot of time discussing such issues as relating to the Buffyverse - about friendship and the bonds of community and redemption and moving on and growth. It should have some bearing on more than just discussing th eshow.

[> [> You're one of the best of us :) To me, anyway -- Earl Allison, 03:15:27 07/29/03 Tue

I for one would be sorry to lose your posts. But you are right, things ARE different, for everyone, and I don't know why.

Is it Buffy ending? Is it the seeming (because I don't think it will last) lack of open-mindedness? Is it the venomous postings?

I don't know. But it will get better, because it has to. There are too many good people here for me to believe otherwise. And they are.

Good people.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> Well said, EA -- Rahael, 05:44:32 07/29/03 Tue

You are right. Good people.

[> [> [> Just a couple thoughts -- dream, 09:40:24 07/29/03 Tue

Buffy's ending does make all the difference in the world. There's nothing new to discuss, just the old arguments to return to again and again. This is bound to get tiresome.

Is it the venomous postings? You bet. I tried skipping the posts of the posters I generally found offensive (not for their ideas, mind you, but for their nastiness, personal attacks, etc.) I found it hard to follow through on threads, because I had to skip so many posts. I started reading only the threads that didn't include any posts by these posters. No surprisingly, a lot of these were short, somewhat off-topic threads. It got boring. So now I stop by every other day, instead of every day. I look for Rob's annotation threads, check to see if OnM has posted any more of his essays, read the responses to those from some of my favorite posters (ponygirl, Sophist, Caroline, Arethusa etc.) and then move on. I probably spend less than a half-hour on the board when I check in now, as compared to a few hours a day (yeah, I've got a job that leaves me with WAY too much free time on my hands). I would compare the current situation to a long party. It's getting pretty late, the food's gone, the wine is almost gone (that is to say, Buffy's over), and you're thinking it's about time to be going home. Meanwhile, there are a couple people in one corner who are way too drunk, who keep insulting everyone, and then acting shocked when their insults are taken seriously ("You know I was just joking...hey, I gotta right to speak my opinion!") Who wants to stick around for that? Better to go right away, or maybe have a final cognac in the corner with the friends you won't see again for a long time, then head out quietly.

I'll keep coming back for a while. But probably not for much longer. If I didn't have so much time to kill at work, I wouldn't be here now. That's not a threat; I don't see anything dramatic about losing interest in a discussion board about tv show that has ended. Despite all the talk about posting until we're old and grey, I doubt anyone will sustain interest that long, or that anyone would consider it healthy if someone did. For the people who watch Angel, Buffy's not over yet - the world continues. But for those of us who don't, there is less and less to talk about. It's not surprising that the more deeply emotional posters, the ones who are most bound to their feelings about the show, are the ones who post more these days.

I will miss some of the people here - the personalities, insights, and most of all the book recommendations. But this sort of thing really isn't meant to go on forever. It's more like summer camp than a real lifelong community. Perhaps if I had become more involved, in chat and meets and so on, I wouldn't feel that way. But I'll admit, I felt uncomfortable developing relationships over a computer. I'm not really that comfortable with techonology in general, don't feel truly alive in the cyberspace world. Heck, I don't even like talking on the phone. That's why it bothered me so much that I COULD be bothered by the rude postings of complete strangers. Why should I give an anonymous stranger the power to piss me off? Yet one does. This whole internet business is a mystery to me - how communities form, how they disintegrate, what these strange relationships are that are conducted via computer. That's part of why the friction on the board has drawn me back in. These are real people, suffering real hurts, over the postings of other real people - but they never see each other, never know each other's real name or age or gender. In the real world, they would probably never interact at all - or would be so careful to avoid offense, that none of these passions would flare. And all of this over a tv show no less! Is anyone else taken aback by the utter STRANGENESS of it all?

And while I'm checking in, the Village Voice has a wonderful Buffy essay..

[> [> Posting just to say.. -- neaux, 05:56:50 07/29/03 Tue

talk about being out of the loop!! I take a break for a week or so from the board and what do I miss? looks like something big.

I just wanted to say that all this hype and hate of Spike or love of Spike is wonderful!

If Spike and Angel go at it on Ats with as much vigor as the fanboys and fangirls on these boards, it will make a very wonderful season of Angel the Series.

And to stay completely neutral, may I add that I love all the characters on both series! XD

[> [> I agree with Finn, what exactly *are* we arguing about? -- Scroll, 06:01:12 07/29/03 Tue

There doesn't seem to be much argument about Spike, at least no more than usual. Why on earth is Spike causing such craziness now, enough to cause posters to leave, when we've had Spike-craziness before that always managed to blow over?

Easy. This isn't about Spike at all. We can love, hate, be indifferent to Spike, just as we always have. We're just all being a lot less friendly and a lot more hateful. That's why we're having craziness. This doesn't even have anything to do with B/S vs. B/A, or Spike versus Angel. This is about us, and the rude people we've become lately.

Not that I'm accusing anyone in particular. I think we've all had moments in which we said, "God, this person is just annoying the hell out of me." Whether or not we ended up posting words to that effect or not.

S'kat, I don't think I can entirely agree with your statement here: Instead we waste board space talking about posters or fans or characters we despise??

I do agree we should not talk about posters or fans we despise. I would think we'd have learned this in elementary school. If you don't like a person's posting style/content, please don't read them. If you can stomach them, please respond politely and direct your comments only to the content of the post, if at all possible.

People are not always going to agree. Masq has always encouraged us to speak our minds responsibly. She hates to censor us, a position I greatly admire her for taking. We don't all love/hate/are indifferent to any or all characters. Including Spike. We're not always going to agree with everyone else (especially on Spike, who's always been a hot button for some) and I think that's okay.

But if you (generic you) are a poster who can't handle Spike criticism or Spike praise, don't read posts that criticise or praise Spike. And if you can't handle a Board that allows both criticism and praise, then perhaps you should try two other boards now available:

Rufus and dub have created their "Angel after Spike" board, which is Spike-friendly.

Jenny-O has created a Yahoo! message board called Stonecutters, an Angel board that does not allow Spike-talk, whether good or bad.

Try one of those :) And let us all take a deep breath and try to remember to respect this board and all the hard work Masq and others have put into it. If we can't argue about Spike or anything else without succumbing to school yard tactics, perhaps we are better off joining a board better suited to our tastes.

(Note to s'kat: this post isn't really in response to you as a poster, I just put it here cuz I responded to that one line you had. I do hope you'll come back one day!)

[> [> Re: Hey, Let's be careful in here! -- Brian, 10:30:14 07/29/03 Tue

Angel or Spike, how can we decide
Which of those hunks, Buffy should ride?
Angel with his brooding, Spike with his snark,
Both views seem to get All to just go and bark.
Relax, Folks, it's just a summer doldrum
Brought on by too much heated boredom.
The dog days of August, them posting blues,
Negating our usual, clear thinking muse.
Perhaps we all need to take a slow to ten
Before pushing that seductive button Send.
I won't, don't, can't, speak for All in this land.
But upon these words I'll have to stand:
All I know is what I really think.
Without this Board my life would truly stink.

[> [> [> Hear hear! -- ponygirl, 10:44:42 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> Bravo! -- Sheri, 11:34:01 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> Thanks, Bri -- Masq, 11:41:22 07/29/03 Tue

We are blessed with some special Bards on this board. : )

[> I had the feeling people had been making an effort on the board recently -- MsGiles, 03:44:12 07/29/03 Tue

I haven't had nearly so many of those *wince* moments lately. Maybe it's been a different story in chat. With it being a more immediate thing, perhaps there's more of a tendency for sharp reactions to go unchecked, and for people to take sides. Perhaps chat, although it's text, is, as its name implies, more like talking, while the board is more like writing (although, confusingly, more like talking than say just writing an essay and giving it to someone)

I'm sure, as well as all the future theses based on the philosophical issues raised and analysed here, there'll be one but on the complex interactions and stresses between all these passionate and literate people, mediated by the keyboard. I know boards in general are prone to huge fallings out, but this isn't just any board. Even the fallings out are thoughtful and articulate. Er, mostly.

[> Message from a Lurker (kind of rambly, but includes compliments!!) -- Lumina, 06:04:21 07/29/03 Tue

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here at ATPoBtVS for almost a year and half now (I'm a fairly recent BtVS convert - I got hooked watching reruns of season five on cable the December before last). I don't post myself thanks to sheer time constraints (too often I'm tied up writing the kind of essays that get awarded scary and unalterable grades by scary and imposing lecturers) - that and the fact that I live in Australia and we don't get the new episodes for a couple of months after the US (and England). But even though I VERY rarely post, just visiting this board on a semi-regular (ok, regular - I check it every day along with my email ;)) basis has aided and enhanced my appreciation of all things Buffy (and, of course, Angel). I'm writing this now because it seems like a good time to say thankyou for the combination of fun, friendliness and philosophy (alliteration, yay :)), and because some of you seem as though you need cheering up with some well-deserved compliments.

Before I start with the flattery I'd better warn you that I'm not likely to say anything particularly original - I just thought I'd take the opportunity to reiterate something everyone here already knows, namely what a fantabulous place this board is. What first caught my attention after I'd stumbled across it almost completely by accident (aside from the fact that there was a poster here who went by the name d'Herblay - I'd be curious to know how many people there are in the world obsessed with both Buffy AND the incomparable Three Musketeers ;)) was the predominance of thought-provoking discussions tempered by much needed doses of silliness (quite a number of posters here display an admirable appreciation of Pythonesque humour ;)). This board rarely loses sight of the fact that philosophising is fun (and over-analysing even funner). If I've been a bit sceptical in the past about the possibility of developing real friendships via Internet messageboards ATPoBtVS has all but cured me: so many of you have developed genuinely close and vital friendships as result of posting here (I love reading the descriptions of your board meets) - which is a fairly wonderful thing, especially when you consider the difficulties that doubtless would have been faced in the pre-internet age of drawing together such a diverse group of people, albeit united by a shared enthusiasm/obsession (IMHO the best thing in the world to be united by).

That's why the current atmosphere of tension has been kind of upsetting, even to a lurker like myself. I've feel like I've gotten to know quite a few of you (one of the weirdest and - potentially - most disconcerting effects of the internet, since, obviously, none of you knows me), and I'm sorry to see some of my favourite posters angry or distressed or leaving or all three. It's probably not really my place to comment, but from what I've observed it seems as though the polarisation between Spike lovers and Angel lovers (or Angel lovers and Spike lovers, whichever you prefer) - and I realise that's a crude way of summing up the current discord, but the fact that some people have been upset by "character-bashing" or perceived character-bashing seems to be at the heart of the issue - has risen out of a tendency to confuse aggressive conflict with meaningful debate. (How's that for a completely unhelpful analysis? ;)) I'm all for arguing with your emotions (I don't believe there's such a thing as objectivity, and even if there is I can't see that it would be very interesting), but extreme or unrestrained emotional responses to particular characters or scenes or whatever that aren't structured by reasoned argument or at least tempered by "respect" (that elusive word) for other people's ideas and a genuine desire not to cause offence can often end up being - well, offensive. (And that was a very long sentence).

All this talk about emotions/reason is reminding me of Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell: the eternal volatile union of contrasts and opposites. One of the poem's most famous lines states (unless I'm misquoting it, in which case it doesn't) that "Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy". In other words, "Reason" shapes and defines (rather than constrains) "Energy" (art, emotion, sensual experience) and stops it from consuming everything in its path and ultimately destroying the universe. (Potential relevance in regards to ATPoBtVS: completely unrestrained emotion in group discussions can be dangerous because when someone disagrees with you or couches an alternative opinion in equally emotional terms it can lead to aggression and feelings of being personally insulted and, in short, to quote Willow, "madness and sweaty palms" [if not the apocalypse]. My words of wisdom for the day. Emotion good. Aggression not.)

As for Angel and Spike, Shadowkat's written a series of amazing essays on why they're both equally attractive (no, not just speaking physically here) and fascinating characters. I can't argue with a word she says.

To conclude, so long, and thanks for all the fish.

Lumina (who might just post something else sometime)

[> [> Very wise words Lumina -- Rahael, 06:10:22 07/29/03 Tue

Wise and touching! Please delurk more often!

[> [> Very eloquent -- Tchaikovsky, 06:25:45 07/29/03 Tue

I won't presume to say thank you on behalf of the regular posters, but I did want to say that I totally agree with your point about the Internet bringing a diversely located set of people together in a way that wouldn't have been possible before. It amazes me that I'm seriously considering going all the way from Bath to Chicago next year, and yet, there it is.

And echoing Rahael- not to make demands on your time but, (actually to hell with that), post more often- I entreat you!

There's a cool web of language winds us in


[> [> [> Oooh, TCH at the board meet? -- Masq, 09:14:52 07/29/03 Tue

Throw in an accompaniment by the full-on London contingent, and I'm in heaven!

[> [> [> [> You and me both! -- Rob, 10:04:03 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> That was great Lumina! -- ponygirl, 07:22:57 07/29/03 Tue

Some much needed perspective, thank you.

For some reason I feel an urge to relate a story about my brother, "the Doctor". In the midst of a very tense situation, tempers running high and all that, he said, "Calm down, it's not like it's life or death." He waited a beat and looked down at the patient, "Oh wait."

It's probably worth mentioning that no one outside my family appreciates his sense of humour and that we probably have emotional problems, but there it is.

[> Tempers flare in chat -- KdS, 07:06:40 07/29/03 Tue

I think we should remember that the experience in chat is far more immediate and emotionally live, and that there are (as I understand) no transcripts kept of the various chat rooms people here use at different times. Whatever may have happened between different people, I think we should remember that chat is as transitory as conversation, and that all we have for who said what to whom is individual memory, which is inevitably affected by emotion and the wish to see oneself as the innocent party. (Albeit I do recall that the only occasion in living memory that an established poster has been banned from this forum involved an intemperate outburst of religious vilification in chat.)

While the disadvantage is that there is no way for a neutral party to adjudicate, the advantage is that whatever may have occurred has already vanished into the ether. Perhaps it would be better for all those involved in this confrontation to make their apologies by email.

And I'm deeply sorry that this board had to split to begin with, and I apologise for any part my more muck-raking remarks in the last few weeks may have done to cause it.

[> I'm still waiting for an apology -- Caroline, 10:53:58 07/29/03 Tue

and a resolve from both Giles and Diana that they will not behave in this way again.

I was in chat when Giles began his unjust drive-by accusations towards dub. I was with dub and Rufus trying to figure out what he meant after he abruptly left. I was one of the people called 'a bunch of shits' by Diana. I was one of the people Diana later made snide remarks about to Giles. I held my tongue and did not respond in rudeness. The justification Diana and Giles gave for their behaviour is that they are entitled to their feelings. Of course you are. You are just not entitled to treat me or any other poster with rudeness, discourtesy and disrespect. You see, it's not about what your views are, it's how you express them. Similarly, I feel that dub owes Diana an apology for the remarks she made. Dub, I know the provocation offered was great, but you know that how you responded was not appropriate. [insert big hug to dub here]

And then, let's all move on. If Diana still pushes your buttons, ignore her. Don't respond on the board, hit the ignore button in chat. Being rude back to her and employing her own methods does not work, as dub has found. But don't give her the power to drive you away or change the nature of your experience of this board. Life is too short.

[> [> Absolutely right, Caro -- dub, 11:08:13 07/29/03 Tue

And I apologize for calling Diana an idiot, and a self-centered, puerile, spoiled brat. I am indeed sorry that I said those things in chat. I was not able to control my reaction to being called a "shit" in a public forum.


[> [> [> It takes a true luminary to apologize. I admire your integrity. -- WickedBuffy, 18:40:33 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> Where angels fear to tread.... -- Rendyl, 11:18:01 07/29/03 Tue

Shouldn't conflicts that occur/arise in chat be resolved in chat? I am puzzled why this wasn't handled in chat or over email rather than being brought out on the boards.

It is one thing to lose ones temper in a live chat but it is a very different thing to continue the posts on a board where there is -always- time to consider what is written before it posts.

And (at the risk of being corny) wouldn't a real-time apology better fit the circumstances?


[> [> [> Re: Where angels fear to tread.... -- Caroline, 11:21:44 07/29/03 Tue

I completely agree. This should have been resolved in chat. The point is it wasn't, for various reasons, and none of them my doing. Since we can't turn back time, I'm trying to deal with it in as non-inflammatory way as possible.

[> [> And we're still waiting, LOL! -- dub ;o), 15:52:51 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> Waiting no longer. -- dub, 19:48:42 07/29/03 Tue

Xander vs Gwen -- JBone, 20:21:39 07/28/03 Mon

So I'm in a jam. I can't get out of it alone. I need someone suave, a guy who can handle himself in a tight spot.


yesterday's results

Post comments here or email them to me. Thanks to the tiebreaker volunteers. I am still taking them.

[> Re: Xander vs Gwen -- Alison, 20:35:32 07/28/03 Mon

'cmon...Gwen needs some love. A few minutes with the heart of the Scoobs and it'll be all bear hugs and window fixing. Xander comes out of this round unscathed.

[> [> My Thoughts exactly -- Giles, 21:01:14 07/28/03 Mon

[> ElectroGwen vs. the One-Eyed Zeppo -- ApOpHiS, 21:23:44 07/28/03 Mon

Now, tradition dictates that I vote for Gwen, as I'm shallow and easily swayed by a pretty face and tight leather. However, my (purely platonic) love for Xander supercedes my base nature. I figure that Xander's read enough comics to know how to handle someone with electro-powers. From Spider-Man alone he'll have learned to overload her with powerlines, pitch her into water, or to simply wear a rubber suit. Of course, he'll have to pick his jaw up off the ground first, but after his experience with the Ashanti demon, he may be less willing to trust a pretty face than I am.

[> Re: Xander vs Gwen -- Anneth, 21:26:52 07/28/03 Mon

Try as I might, I can. not. vote. for Gwen. I mean, under any reasonable circumstances, she'd eviscerate him. But, happily for Xander, circumstances are rarely reasonable in the Buffyverse, or elsewhere. Xander, who has the moral victory by virtue of being one of the Scoobies, and thus sacrosanct, also somehow stumbles upon the physical victory. Maybe he runs her over with his ice cream truck? No matter; Xander wins by a mile.

[> So very... visual -- pr10n, 00:26:28 07/29/03 Tue

Xander Harris: if I could be someone else I'd think a lot about being Mssr. Whedon's alter ego, especially in the tres skinny phase. WHile I'm wishing, I mean.

But for just as long as I spent looking at the pix of Gwen, she won. Game set match. Woman: whoa, man, woe man!

Then I voted the XandMan.

[> I usually vote for the 'Angel' characters but... -- Scroll, 06:18:18 07/29/03 Tue

Xander has been there from the very beginning. He's the one who breathed life back into Buffy in "Prophecy Girl". He's the one who always jumped into the fray despite his lack of super-powers. He's been the heart of the Scooby Gang for seven long years, and I adore him for all his quiet contribution. And besides, Snoopy Dance!

I do love Gwen, with all her sleek style and grace and cool mutant powers. Plus, she got to snog Gunn, which is just beautiful :) But Xander is still my man, and in the end, I just had to vote for him.

[> Oh, to heck with the contest.... -- cjl, 06:55:39 07/29/03 Tue

Just as Gwen and Xander are about to face off in mortal combat, she hears that Lara Croft is going after Pandora's Box in the Tomb Raider sequel. "They gave that boring, stuck-up, plasticine bitch a SEQUEL?!" Gwen yells. She grabs Xander (who doesn't complain), and the two of them have a whirlwind adventure that has audiences laughing and cheering, earns $200 million at the box office, and permanently blows Angelina Jolie and her two silicon friends out of the water. When it's done, Gwen gives Xander a little LISA-enhanced action, grabs the Box and takes off for parts unknown. Xander, still a little dazed, summarizes the situation with one of his patented wisecracks, and heads back to Cleveland. We'll follow him anywhere--and if there's any justice, Joss will invite Nic Brendon back to do something. Anything. (I'm voting for Xander, of course.)

[> Comfortador or conquistador? -- MaeveRigan, 08:33:49 07/29/03 Tue

The outcome of this contest depends on whether Gwen faces Xander the conquistador, or Xander the comfortador. Face it--in a match against Xander the conquistador, ElectroGwen would win in a few seconds and the Zeppo would be (literally) toast. However, we know what Gwen really wants is a loving touch, and in the arms of Xander the comfortador, the man who was able to win the heart of an ex-vengeance demon twice--and always assuming Gwen is tricked out in that nifty circuit-control device--she'd melt in a minute.

While we're clearing the air... -- Rob, 21:19:17 07/28/03 Mon

...I have something to say about Caro and her damned Kali fetish! I've seen pictures: she has two, count 'em, two arms! Give up, Caro. You're not Kali. You're never gonna be Kali. Move on. Leave at least a small portion of your dignity in tact!

Okay, maybe I'm not the best one to be talking about dignity, but at least I don't drink the blood of my foes! And besides, red is sonot a good color on you!


[> whatever, Rob. -- Anneth, 21:33:57 07/28/03 Mon

You've watched League of Ex. Gents. one too many times. Stop taking your puerile fantasies out on Caro.

Jerkwad. Like you're one to talk about color-coordination anyway! An AtS tshirt with a Sunnydale High (origial, not that blasted S7 imitation) cheerleader skirt? It's positively galling. You're positively galling!

[> [> Re: whatever, Rob. -- Alison, 21:36:06 07/28/03 Mon

Hey! Back off Rob! Just because you don't look half as good as he does in a cheerleader skirt...

[> [> [> Mmmmm....... -- Rendyl, 22:39:43 07/28/03 Mon

Rob is wearing the skirt? Does he have the pom poms too? ;)

Ren - not too cool to drool -

[> [> [> You got that right! -- d'Herblay, 23:04:52 07/28/03 Mon

And I have the picture to prove it!

[> [> [> Hush, Ali! She does too look half as good as Rob in a cheerleader skirt! -- Random, 23:10:55 07/28/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Damn! Just think how good I'd look if I had *both* legs! -- Anneth, 23:16:58 07/28/03 Mon

So, you see, I literally can't give Rob a run for his pom-poms...

[> [> [> [> [> You're just trying to play upon my sympathies so I'll let you win at Backgammon! -- Rob, 08:44:17 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> Is it working? -- Anneth, 22:08:32 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll get back to you on that. -- Rob, putting on his resolve face, 07:48:34 07/30/03 Wed

Um, yeah, kinda. ;o)

[> [> [> [> And you! I thought you were supposed to be on my side, you overeducated ponce! -- Rob, 08:15:10 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Look who's talking -- TCH- joining the fray, 08:33:02 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> I see who's talking -- the Brit with the funny hair and the hots for a half-dozen Restoration poets -- Random, 08:39:54 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Um, Ran, didn't you just describe over 85% of the British population? -- Rob, 08:57:13 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If only your introspection was equal to your arrogance -- Celebaelin, 16:40:37 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heh heh-good one! -- Rob, 17:13:29 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But only the one, 'Leave it out pal I'm not in the mood, OK' -- Celebaelin, 17:31:35 07/29/03 Tue

Incidentally can I infer that you're not going to be going to Chicago next year? Your name's not on the list yeah? Seems to me that if I can cross the pond (potentially) you might consider showing willing as well. Just a thought, not gonna get mushy (for the moment!). Or am I just getting this badly wrong? No offense intended in case that wasn't obvious but since you're organising it...?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But only the one, 'Leave it out pal I'm not in the mood, OK' -- Rob, 21:35:29 07/29/03 Tue

Well, I was waiting to see if you'd put your name on the list. Now that you have, I'm suddenly gonna be celebrating some obscure Jewish holiday in Tampa the week of the meet. :P


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry to hear that -- Celebaelin, 02:00:27 07/30/03 Wed

However, staying with the theme here's a couple more for you:-

Children can be so hurtful (and if you doubt that try having someone drop one on you from a third storey window).

As long as the mere threat of my presence keeps you away everyone's a winner.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Marvelling at your badinage- OK donne. -- TCH, 09:00:55 07/29/03 Tue

[> So, it's time for our smackdown, is it? -- Caroline, 07:24:28 07/29/03 Tue

All i can say dude is bring it on!

You're just jealous 'cos I have way better fashion sense than you, sweetie.

[> [> Now, that's just mean! My Sunnydale High ensemble is a classic! -- Rob, sticking his fingers in his ears and singing 'la-la-la', 08:12:53 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> You're just jealous because.... -- Caroline, 08:25:31 07/29/03 Tue

I fill out that particular ensemble way better than you!

[> [> [> [> Umm...they're doing wonderful things with surgery nowadays. Rob may beat you yet in that category -- Random, 08:36:43 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Well, I don't know if I'm quite ready to be Roberta. I beat Caro w/o the surgery! -- Rob, 08:46:21 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> Just get a box of tissues :-) -- Diana (hey I'm allowed to joke too), 08:53:14 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And I'll let you borrow my Buffy bra -- Diana, 08:54:46 07/29/03 Tue

Even gives me something worth putting a sweater over :-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Can't wait to see you MANTITS Rob! -- Caroline, 08:55:55 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You can't wait to see my mantis? My mantis? What? I don't-- Oh, you saucy Aussie! -- Rob, 09:06:17 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Is that chocolate sauce, Rob? -- Caroline ;), 12:30:09 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll have to clear that with Bit first. ;o) -- Rob, the faithful minion, 12:39:20 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> All chocolate is mine! Unless I share...or it's someone else's... -- LittleBit [hoarding the chocolate], 14:09:01 07/29/03 Tue

[> Now you all know why LadyStarlight and I spend all our time in chat snogging -- Dead (but needing distraction from the carryings on) Soul, 04:38:37 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> *sigh* Meanwhile, I spend my time in chat being corrupted! -- Rob, 07:42:56 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> Each other? Gee, Dead, I don't remember that... -- Anneth, 12:11:41 07/30/03 Wed

Maybe I was too busy trying to keep from suffocating during one of our frequent and massive group orgies hugs.

Question (*Spoilers for future Angel episode 5.1) -- luvthistle1, 00:17:46 07/29/03 Tue

I read the sides, and the spoilers, for the first epsiode of season 5
of "Angel", so if you haven't and do not want to be spoiled. turn back




*At the end of the first Ep Angel shoots "Hauser"(the special ops guy)with the shotgun killing him .which can't be good .

My question is:.. isn't Hauser, suppose to be "Human"? Angel once said That he do not believe in killing "human', because they have the chance to be "redeem". so, if Angel killed Hauser in the first episode, doesn't that means the character of Angel is walking dangerously close to the "darkside" and could be in danger of losing his humanity?

Note:he lost Connor and Cordy. the two people that he truly loved that tied him to 'humanity.

[> Re: Question (*Spoilers for future Angel episode 5.1) -- ZachsMind, 07:52:14 07/29/03 Tue

*ZachsMind enters camera wearing a smoking jacket*
*Picks up bottle of red liquid & a wineglass*
*Hits his mark, faces the camera*

Keep in mind, my dear luvthistle, we're not seeing the entire picture.

*pours himself a glass from the bottle*

When 'sides' are presented to actors for readings or for other production reasons, and they get leaked to the public, it's at best only half (or less) of a scene that we're reading. There are individuals who get these sides from different sources and try to piece them together and that's how we get our spoilage.

*absent-mindedly sniffs the glass*

Suffice it to say we're not going to start seeing our beloved souled vampire running around shooting at human beings who don't deserve it with shotguns. Even Angelus has better tact than that.

*sniffs the bottle*

And I'd like to propose a toast to the brave lads & lasses on the front lines getting us our spoilage! We wouldn't be annoying to the anti-spoilers without your help! To your health!

*drinks red liquid*


I ordered O positive! What is this swill!?

[> [> Re: Question (*Spoilers for future Angel episode 5.1) -- luvthistle1, 12:17:32 07/29/03 Tue

He deserve it alright. Hauser is evil. it was just at the time that Angel shoot him, no one was in immediate threat. the kids Hauser was going to kill, were already safe and out of the building. he couldn't kill Angel, ( no stake) Angel had already disarmed him. it was Just that Angel said that he would never kill a human, ( that why he didn't kill Lilah)because they are redeemable. So, if Hauser is human, and Angel killed him, it would mean that his is no longer "morally ambiguous" as he use to be.

[> [> [> Re: Question (*Spoilers for future Angel episode 5.1) -- Corwin of Amber, 12:29:35 07/29/03 Tue

I don't recall Angel saying that he would *never* kill humans. Heck, he locked a bunch of lawyers in with Dru and Darla - thats just as much murder as shooting someone, unless you don't count lawyers as human. :)

What's going on... and a few suggestions -- Masquerade, 00:18:05 07/29/03 Tue

The board's been feeling twitchy of late, and we're not the only board feeling it. The addition of James Marsters to the cast of Angel has some fans cheering and other fans feeling trepidation. When the WB decided to play up James' presence on the cast in their advertisements, things seemed to go a little crazy all over internet fandom.

ATPo was no exception. Our troubles are a microcosm of those hightened feelings.

Everybody should understand that fans feel strongly on both sides of the issue--welcoming Spike as a character and being wary of his addition. Fans who enjoy Spike feel like they get picked on when they talk about Spike. Other fans worry that the addition of Spike will mean less time for the characters they know and love on the show. They want to have conversations that feature these other characters and that don't emphasize Spike.

Both sides are entitled to their feelings, and no matter where you fall on the continuum (Big Spike fan, neutral, Not a Spike fan) you should be aware of the sensitivity of fans who feel differently than you. If you don't want to talk about Spike, don't. If you do want to talk about Spike, do. Read the threads you want to read. Don't read the threads you don't want to read. I don't want this issue to divide this board. It's not worth ruining the community we have here.

If you need to supplement your ATPo posting with posting that is geared more towards your personal preferences, there are two boards I know of that can accomodate you.

For Spike fans, our new sister board, "Angel after Spike".

For fans of AtS who want to talk about the show without discussion of Spike (either positive or negative), the new Yahoo board, "AtSStoneCutters".

Have fun chatting with folks at these boards, and please continue hanging around ATPo as well!

[> Thanks Masq....:):) -- Rufus, 01:26:32 07/29/03 Tue

[> Echoing Rufus' thanks : ) -- Scroll, 06:59:43 07/29/03 Tue

[> Please forgive my impertinence.. -- ZachsMind, 07:23:27 07/29/03 Tue

Am I to understand that we are allowed to discuss so long as we don't disagree? This is like saying it's alright to breathe so long as you don't make that inhaling and exhaling sound with your face, because some find it offensive.

We have weathered this before. People are going to disagree. There's no way around that. Other people will get bent out of shape about it. People will come and go, for online as well as offline reasons. These things happen. The community should not feel a threat of destruction because of it.

Perhaps the real concern here is that without Buffy the Series, is the BtVS fan community facing its extinction? Will we one day find that people just stop coming to these boards? Will we run out of things to say? It's possible. It's probable, if limitations are placed on what and how we say things.

If we're told animated debates have become taboo, more people will leave, and more quickly. There's no reason to encourage discussion if you know you risk being accused of "flaming" or "baiting" or what have you. Each individual comes here with their own knowledge, opinions and agendas, and here is where we share them. To discourage strong feelings and encourage those with strong feelings to leave and find other boards that agree with their sensitive sensibilities? This reeks of political correctness. If you can't play fair, find another playground.

If we want the community to band together in this time of uncertainty, the last thing Masq should be doing is encouraging people to seek "sister boards." Whedon fans are spread out enough as it is. The schizming and fragmenting has got to stop. This fear of disagreement runs the risk of diluting the community, when it is our differences that strengthen us.

Did we learn nothing from the series? When one believes they stand alone and apart from the rest, they risk Buffy's inferiority/superiority complex. It is when people share what makes them different, that's the power.

[> [> I think masq is trying to say -- Rahael, 08:41:38 07/29/03 Tue

that people should expect disagreement. If they find things getting a little heated for them, there are places where certain things are not allowed (Stonecutters - no Spike discussion, bashing or praise) and AaS, where there's no character bashing allowed.

I don't think she's saying that we shouldn't have disagreement. Quite the opposite in fact.

[> [> masq didn't encourage anyone to leave the board -- anom, 08:43:25 07/29/03 Tue

She said, "If you need to supplement your ATPo posting with posting that is geared more towards your personal preferences," then you can look at these other boards in addition to continuing to participate in this one.

Masq didn't discourage strong feelings, either. She said that we should understand that people have strong feelings, that both sides are entitled to these strong feelings, & that each side should be aware of the sensitivity of those who feel differently. She doesn't even say "accommodate their sensitivity," just be aware of it. The implication is, realize that if you post on these issues, you may get a strong response, possibly one you won't like. If you don't want to deal w/that, ever or just sometimes, there are other boards where you can avoid it--but it's up to each individual poster. Masq explicitly said read & post what you want to. Nowhere does she say what anyone is "allowed" or not "allowed" to do.

[> [> [> Okay, listen to Anom. She says it better! -- Rahael, 08:53:11 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> testing -- XW, 09:20:38 07/29/03 Tue

Is this in italics or not?

[> [> [> [> Voy is acting a little strangely this morning -- CW (sorry for the interruption of the serious topic), 09:26:06 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> We lost a few of our settings -- Masq, 09:28:23 07/29/03 Tue

Not sure why some of them randomly turned themselves off. One of them was html in posts, another was the order of threads on the main board.

I've fixed it (I hope), so carry on all. : )

[> [> [> Oh really? -- ZachsMind, 09:33:48 07/29/03 Tue

She encouraged people with extreme opinions to take them somewhere else. I'd call that encouraging people to leave the board. At least to voice those extreme opinions, and then come back to this board when you're ready to behave. She's explained that strong feelings have proven to cause a disruption in the community here, and that people should go elsewhere (where this community doesn't have to hear them) to scream at the rooftops, then when they want to use their 'indoor voice' and play more sensibly, they're allowed to come back.

In other words, people are to post elsewhere when they wish to voice their opinion in a way that MIGHT cause friction in others, then they are welcome to return after they are done. And for the record I'm well aware of the sandbox rules of the internet. It's her sandbox. Her rules go. My very voice of apprehension is potentially making waves. I'm aware of my impertinence. What she says goes. She's trying to make the best of a difficult situation. Masq is the law of the land we are to abide by her wishes, in interest of community cohesion. Fine. This does not mean the people tugging at her ear encouraging her to "judiciously censor" here or there are right.

It doesn't mean she's right.

[> [> [> [> No, you've misread it. That's exactly the oppostie of what she said. -- CW, 09:42:13 07/29/03 Tue

She basically was saying that she undesrtood if people wanted to participate in more restricted forums. But, she said also that they were welcome back when they felt like returning. It had nothing to do with anyone's behavior or attitude one way or the other.

If Masq was the type to want to quickly kick people off, a lot of us would have been banned ages ago.

[> [> [> [> [> Okay I MISUNDERSTOOD THEN AND STAND CORRECTED... -- ZachsMind, 11:14:03 07/29/03 Tue

It is NOT my intention to bite the hand that cares for this forum. This forum has welcomed me in the past when it felt at one time like no one else would. There have been other forums which will remain nameless that have banned me or left me unwelcome in the past because sometimes my opinions are hotly contestable. I make no apologies for that. So when I see an indication that this forum may go the way of others, I will defend the right of anyone to post anything(within polite reason of course) because even if I disagree with the guy, if he can't speak, then I might be next on the chopping block.

From the wording she chose, I perceived Masq to be inching in that direction, and past experience has proven to me that the path, while innocent at first, leads to "judicious censorship." I am not accusing her. I was warning her of the potential for harm should things go in that direction, as I've seen them go before elsewhere.

However, it has been proven to me I misunderstood Masq's choice of words, and therefore I stand corrected, and apologize for my impertinence, ignorance, and lack of faith in her intentions. I do agree she's never given cause for alarm in the past, and I take this opportunity to thank her for making me, and other vociferous fans of BtVS feel welcome. Even and especially when we agree to disagree.

There. Anyone else want to eat the rest of this crow? I'm pushin' myself from the table cuz ah'm just stuffed t' th' gills, here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Er...gives Zach a Tums..(with calcium even) ;) -- Rendyl, 11:24:09 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Brrp! Ahhh! -- There. That's better. -NT (ZachsMind), 11:33:17 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Zach, in the past 2 years of my being here, Masq has only banned 1 person from posting... -- Rob, 10:02:29 07/29/03 Tue

...and there were major extenuating circumstances, where a certain poster was antagonizing the board on a regular basis. She doesn't censor posters or their ideas, whether she agrees or disagrees. As Rah, anom, and CW have said, you are misintepreting the intentions of Masq's post. And Masq is right...She asked no one to leave, but gave options to people who might feel it necessary to restrict themselves on this board, to increase the board peace. It would be awfully counterproductive for her to encourage people to leave her own board, wouldn't it? She is being very fair, and very giving, IMO, in affording people the option to post elsewhere.

Here's a direct quote from her post: "If you don't want to talk about Spike, don't. If you do want to talk about Spike, do." Where in that do you read censorship of opinions or ideas?

Regarding the other boards, her exact words were: "If you need to supplement your ATPo posting with posting that is geared more towards your personal preferences..."


[> [> [> [> Deep cleansing breath? -- Rendyl, 10:09:30 07/29/03 Tue

Sigh. No, she simply suggested a course of action designed to hopefully keep anyone from getting angry enough to leave or die of a stroke -until- all those upset by this thing can cool off a little.

People are welcome to post elsewhere if the dissenting responses to their opinions are getting to be too much to deal with. She never said "You are not allowed to read/respond to any post that upsets you", she simply said "if it is going to make you angry to read, try not reading it." (paraphrased)

And I hate to drag this out but I am going to anyway. This board has always been unique in that many topics were hotly debated but almost all those posting made an effort to be civil to one another. It has always been understood that this was the place you came to get a reasoned discussion or even argument on your ideas, not (in most cases) bitter and ugly attacks.

Zach, if you truly want or need that intense a level of freedom in posting then maybe you misunderstood the board atmosphere.

--I do frequent a board with that set up. It tends to get and stay very messy. It deals with a singular topic and the controversial issues surrounding it. People are debating issues that concern their life and work and explosions are a nearly constant fact. But it deals with concrete issues, not ideas and philosophical explorations. Many of the posters on that board do not have the option or luxury of backing off. They have to stay active on the board and in the organizations or they will lose what to many of them is a battle.--

Unlike them, the posters of this board do have choices, some of them kindly provided by Masq.

Just because we -can- be rude doesn't mean we -must- be rude.

And (with apologies to Zach for my going all illogical at the end) with more boards and slower archiving I actually got to read most of the threads before voynak ate them and even respond to a few of them.


[> [> [> [> yes, really -- anom, 10:57:28 07/29/03 Tue

"She encouraged people with extreme opinions to take them somewhere else."

No, she told people who don't want to deal with extreme opinions that they don't share where they can post their own opinions & not have to deal with the friction it might cause here--if that's what they want. Nothing Masq said discouraged anyone from posting opinions, extreme or not, on subjects that have become controversial. She said to be aware of the sensitivities of those w/different opinions & that both sides are entitled to their opinions & to post or not post & read or not read what they want to. Hell, now that I read it again, Masq didn't even say to respect others' sensitivities--just be aware of them. Understand that there are strong feelings on both sides, & that they may be expressed in response to yours. In other words, this is a place where you can express strong opinions, but be prepared to see strong opinions you don't like, because the people who hold them are equally able to express them here. The links to the other boards were provided for posters who don't want to deal w/some of the reactions they may get here. If they're willing to deal w/strong opposing opinions & even some flames, they can say whatever they want here.

[> [> [> [> My opinion-Characters are fictional but -- sdev, 12:47:17 07/29/03 Tue

People are not. I have no problem with so called character bashing. You want to call Spike/Angel/Buffy/Willow etc. names go ahead. Just don't call me names or demean me or my posts or any other poster's. It is the ad hominem attacks that are so stifling to discourse and often hurtful and an incitement to rage and retribution. You think I or what I have to say is wrong/stupid/ignorant/crazy etc. fine. You can argue with it, vehemently if you like, or ignore it. Sometimes poster bashing takes subtle but nonetheless perceptible forms-- we are not talking the same language, not watching the same show, how can we even discuss. This is still poster bashing and a personal insult. Also, comments about fans are really comments about posters, for aren't we the fans. Disagreeing with a post without giving any reason is also not appropriate. If you feel you have no basis of discussion with the poster so why are you addressing their post?

I reserve my right to respond in kind when personally attacked or when I see others personally attacked. The English politician Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." That is my philosophy.

[> [> [> [> [> I agree with your description of etiquette -- Sophist, 13:04:11 07/29/03 Tue

I would modify your reservation of the right to defend yourself -- which I agree with in principle -- by suggesting that "turn the other cheek" sometimes works pretty well in defusing tensions.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree with your description of etiquette -- sdev, 13:29:26 07/29/03 Tue

My impression is that the situation got so out of hand because the cheek got turned too many times. Sometimes putting your foot down early saves a situation from blowing up later. Some people, unfortunately, equate kindness or tolerance or a desire to calm a situation with weakness and capitalize accordingly.

I just read a mind-blowing post on this Board that described systematic attacks on posters. The problems here are not just one person. I believe there are several people who would be happy to see certain posters leave for no other reason than they don't like their opinions. I find that desire to push people out ridiculous. But in fact several of those people have left.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I've been married long enough to know -- Sophist, 13:59:54 07/29/03 Tue

that sometimes it's worse to win an argument than to give it up. And consider my profession when you evaluate my wisdom here. :)

I also find there are 2 sides to most issues (another job benefit), so I rarely accept one post as gospel.

As for posters' intent, well I expressed my skepticism of intent elsewhere. And that notorious extremist Caroline is watching my every step on that subject. Discretion is here the better part.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I've been married long enough to know -- Rufus, 14:02:09 07/29/03 Tue

that sometimes it's worse to win an argument than to give it up. And consider my profession when you evaluate my wisdom here. :)

LOL....now admit just how long it took before you figured out that gem....;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Long enough for someone to demand a retest on my law boards. -- Sophist, 16:27:36 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, dear. -- Caroline, 14:23:07 07/29/03 Tue

See? I know the secret to a happy marriage!

I promise to be less hardline in the future. Whenever you speak of intent, I will spackle in more determinate explanators all on my own. But now I realize that if slip into any purposive formulations, I'm sunk!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't be too worried -- -- Sophist, 16:31:15 07/29/03 Tue

it's unseemly for the agnostic to attack the atheist.

But I might secretly feed ammunition to Ran....

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I've been married long enough to know -- Rahael, 14:37:12 07/29/03 Tue

God you are so right Sophist. It's never worth it. Win or Lose, never. I say it with some rueful experience.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is not about winning the argument. -- sdev, 16:39:25 07/29/03 Tue

This is about the way discussions are held and holding all posters to standards of decent non-offensive discourse. I am not using the word argument in the confrontation sense.

I get the feeling that there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on of which I am ignorant. I am a very apolitical, downright dense, person in that respect. I gather I stepped on some wrong toes early on in my defense of fair discourse and a poster. Luckily I am tough. It is nice to be liked but I don't always put it at the top of the list. Also I have an acute sense of fairness. That is my package and in lawyer parlance- what I bring to the table.

Having said I may be ignorant and expressed my views, I will now bow out.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, no, your previous post made sense! -- Scroll, 16:59:36 07/29/03 Tue

I think Sophist was just arguing the other side of how to approach discussions/arguments. So I guess Sophist and you are simply arguing/discussing how to argue/discuss. Don't worry, you're not the only one who can be dense :) I totally missed the kerfuffle on the board until just recently!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> As Scroll says, -- Sophist, 18:21:45 07/29/03 Tue

I was just discussing how to discuss. Thought I'd add a little levity also.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> no problem -- sdev, 19:33:56 07/29/03 Tue

I hope I wasn't misunderstood I only meant to bow out of this discussion. But thanks for the positive comment Scroll. Levity works too, Sophist. And you are quite right about winning the battle and losing the war in personal relationships.

I guess, I just don't like to see people intimidated. Also some people are very vulnerable to being hurt. And that hurts me.

[> [> WB - accelerated from naive to chary in just two weeks. -- WickedBuffy, 14:43:42 07/29/03 Tue

I'd appreciate it if a sentence in Zachs post was attended to.

First, I completely understand what Masq said and all, no problem.

But one sentence in Z's post is exactly why I feel unwelcome and thereby disenchanted with the Board.

I've only been around here for about 5 months, so it's not leaving any gaping hole in the posting or anything for me to post alot less. But as long as this thread is discussing the topic in such a positive, balanced manner, I'd just like to know. No big deal, it just puzzles me. I already went through surprise, shock, sadness, disillusionment, frustration, anger and disappointment.

Now it's just my own regular curiosity. It still baffles me.

"There's no reason to encourage discussion if you know you risk being accused of "flaming" or "baiting" or what have you."

Accused, convicted and already having that unique poster "punishment" doled out before even getting a clue as to what's just happened. It's a highly effective, adaptable method and has been for centuries.

This isn't an accusation at everyone, I'm too far past accusing. ("Everyone" wasn't involved.)I don't care much anymore. Apathy? Probably - and that's the exact opposite of how I used to feel about this place. I do miss how I used to feel about this place. Alot.

Anyway - Those who did it for some means of their own know it. If they pretend they didn't - they are lying to themselves and others. And if they want to know if it worked, yahhhh - they win. Here's your ribbon. Dance a jig.

But back to that most insidious of weapons - just like the kind used in witch-hunts throughout our past. The "if you are accused, then you are automatically guilty no matter" what method. This is expressly about you who were part of it - no one else. (you as in "small influential group")

If an entire group did want to stop something like that from continuing to go on, how could it be done? Would it even be worth the time? (Your view would change the day you were at the receiving end.)

One person, one person alone had the integrity to step up and say something about it to me. So at least I wasn't as incredibly confused as I had been for some while. Some weird things made more sense, finally. That discussion was never finished, but I admire that person for at least being willing to do that much.

I'm not writing about this from an angry or confrontational place, at all. But it is a method used here that's unjust, cruel (effective though) and manipulative. A covert social weapon.

Is there any possible way for that to be disarmed? Healed? It is an excellent effective control method in groups, especially cybergroups who aren't face to face. The anonymity is excellent cover. it thrives like mold.

And if you (as in everyone) choose to dismiss it as rare, self-irrelevant or trivial - remember that no one is completely safe from being blind-sided.

I repeat, again and again - this isn't accusing the whole board and I haven't even subtley or subtextly pointed at any specific poster(s). It's simply an evil that lurks and hurts and is here.

There's probably no way to prevent it, since it's more of an individual moral choice for the user. But at least if that particular "strategy" is put out into the light, it might be less tolerated. All it takes is one person refusing to join in and speaking up. Just one.

[> I'm so glad I kept my mouth shut about all of this -- Jay (the taciturn one), 19:17:33 07/29/03 Tue

Especially considering the subject matter. I hope I can keep it shut.

OT Followup to Diana -- Sophist, 09:48:44 07/29/03 Tue

Rina's thread was archived before I saw your post. You said you were done with the topic and I respected that.

I wasn't making any comparisons. I was simply noting the different terminology. I was not passing judgment on the distinctions.

I am the last person in the world to defend Bush's decision to invade Iraq. However, I don't consider it comparable to what happened on Sept. 11. At all.

[> But why the different terminology if it doesn't mean anything? -- Diana, 09:55:00 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> Different terminologies arise for lots of reasons. -- Sophist, 10:44:30 07/29/03 Tue

Some are historical, some involve real differences in meaning. My response to Finn actually pointed out that government actions can and should be considered terrorist. But each case has to be considered on its own merits.

An Apology -- Giles, 12:13:55 07/29/03 Tue

In the past day or two that I have said some things which were inappropriate. I want to
Apologize to a few people. Dub, I am sorry about what I said. I spoke out of emotion and attacked you without thinking. Looking back, I realize that I was out of line and didn't even give you a chance to talk reasonably. Rufus, I am also sorry about the comments which I made to you. My wording of the comments was also wrong, in regards to both Rufus and Dub. Caroline, I am sorry to drag you into this . If anyone from the board wants to speak to me about this subject matter, then Email me. I value these women's opinions and have enjoyed their posts in the past. I am sorry my words have upset them.

[> Thank you Giles, -- Caroline, 12:25:28 07/29/03 Tue

I never expected anything less from you. Looking forward to seeing you in chat soon!

[> Thank you, Giles. Apology accepted. -- dub ;o), 12:36:03 07/29/03 Tue

[> Re: Apology accepted -- Rufus, 14:00:22 07/29/03 Tue

[> My sorry attempt at Reconciliation. -- Diana/lunasea, 19:25:37 07/29/03 Tue

What occurred last night in chat is but the tip of a much larger iceberg. Just apologizing to the three parties involved (Dub, Rufus and Caroline) will not heal the board or myself. This past month has been a time of great upheaval for me and unless I acknowledge this, I will continue to fall back on old ways of coping, as I did last night. I don't think that anyone here wants that and I know that I don't.

Recently I have discovered why I have adopted such a belligerent attitude towards things. Something happened a very long time ago that made me feel helpless. This experience has been permanently imprinted on my brain (the amygdala to be precise) and when I start to experience this feeling of helplessness or being attacked/controlled/etc, it triggers other feelings associated with this event. Whether I am actually being attacked is irrelevant. I just have to feel that way. This is something I will do pretty much anything to avoid, so rather than feel helpless, I lash out, sometimes quite viciously at others. This does not excuse this behavior, but it helps me understand it so that I can modify it.

I discovered this I believe two weeks ago and spent until the wee hours of the morning in chat with some very patient and kind posters here who I now consider to be very good friends. That night, I decided to change my board name. I had enough real lunacy in my life that I didn't need to be reminded of this when I came to the board. I made a lot of revelations that night, which I shared with my new friends. I was a bit sad to read that one of them didn't have faith in my desire to change after that emotional night, but I don't blame him. It will take a while before people trust me again.

Before all of this, I said some horrible things. Things I wish I could take back. I can't and when I look back on all the devastation my words has caused, I feel helpless. This is something I want to avoid, especially since I can't lash out like I used to. That night in chat, I learned something about myself. Before I had built up these elaborate illusions to justify how I acted. Really I was just acting that way to protect myself. When I realized this, I realized how I didn't like how I acted. There was some truth to what my critics were saying.

So I came to the board the next day with a new name and a new attitude. I tried to phrase things more carefully. I tried to ignore anything that was designed to bait me. I wasn't going to engage those who just wanted to vent on someone. This was no longer a role I could afford to play. Still, old habits die hard and when someone said something, boy did I want to lash out. Sometimes I was successful at curbing that instinct and sometimes I wasn't.

All I want to do is make people feel better. When my words are interpreted the opposite, it hurts me. When my words accomplish the opposite, it hurts me. That was never my intention. If you are one of those people who were hurt by my words, I can just tell you that I am going to try my hardest not to do it again. That is all I can do. I cannot change the past. If you were hurt, you were hurt. I am sorry that you were hurt. I wish I could take them back or change them, but I got my time machine on eBay and it hasn't worked properly since "Apocalypse Nowish."

For those that have grown tired of the turgid mundane soap opera this board has become, hopefully my words will go towards real reconciliation. I think the "Angel after Spike" board is a great idea. Not because it gets the Spike posts off of here or because it gives people of various character preferences places to go, but because it helps to slay Voynak. Now we have an area TWICE as large to keep current posts. This means that people have twice as many posts they can respond to. I think that is great. I was never against that board or the people that created it. I think it is a great idea.

I don't want to contribute to the turmoil the boad has seen, so I will wrap this up. I am sorry and hope that we can put all this behind us. I am sorry that my private attempts to change were not enough. I hope that this public declaration of my intentions will aid in board healing.

Just writing it has helped in mine.

[> [> I apologize for thinking you couldn't/wouldn't do this -- dub, 19:47:14 07/29/03 Tue

That was very eloquent. I think any/all of us would sympathize with you in the situation you describe. I do. It took much courage to post this. It will take more courage though to resist the impulse to lash out on a daily basis. Won't you let us help you, instead of providing you with targets? (That was said slightly tongue-in-cheek, but is sincere, nonetheless.)

And thank you for the apology.

[> [> [> Thank you, both! -- *hugs Diana and dub real hard*, 20:27:39 07/29/03 Tue

Um, not to bring up the whole polynymity thing again, just wanted to give an anonymous but very sincere {{HUG}} to both of you for these two wonderful posts.

Diana, thank you so much for sharing your personal revelations with us. I believe in your desire to make amends, and to change how you interact on the board. I hope we all do our parts in making this goal easy to achieve :)

dub, I'm so glad for your happy response to Diana. You give me hope that the tensions of the past have faded to make way for mutual respect and possible friendship.

And, at the risk of sounding like I want us to hold hands and sing "Kumbya" around the (virtual) campfire, I really, really love this board and hope with all my heart that we make it out of this latest "kerfuffle" stronger and more united as a community, and wiser and kinder as posters.

Now excuse me, please. I must go and hug some trees ;)

[> [> [> [> I'm feeling the love (as i pit character against character) -- Jay, 20:54:05 07/29/03 Tue

Come join my character tournament. Get your nasties out there.

Dub, did you get my email?

[> [> [> [> [> 'People all over the world, join hands. Start a love train...' -- Alison, 20:56:01 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> E-mail? Nope? -- dub, 22:26:23 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> How about now? Still no? -- Jay, 16:48:33 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Got it, Jay! -- dub ;o), 19:13:17 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> I think we all need to realize -- Diana, 05:22:35 07/30/03 Wed

That we all have lives and we all have pain. Didn't Buffy teach us that in "Earshot"? Not sure if Jonathan really learned it until CwDP. The immediacy of the internet tends to make these things go out of control rather fast. We post something and expect an immediate result. That is just the nature of the beast. I have been guilty of this attitude myself.

Let's all just buy the world a coke and I'm not going to say let's get back to normal, because normal sucked. Instead from "Epiphany" in the words of Lorne when Angel told him he didn't know how to go back, "Well, that's just the thing. You don't. You go on to the new place. Whatever that is."

So everyone hop into the Angelmobile (he doesn't need it any more since he has 12 new cars) and we'll find that place, together. I hope those posters who have left will come back soon. There is plenty of room in the Angelmobile. (but keep the other board open to help slay Voynak)

You're welcome and I'm sorry that my problems have caused anyone else any pain.

[> [> Thank you......apology accepted. -- Rufus, 23:32:26 07/29/03 Tue

I'm glad you took the time to write this.....I'm very proud of you.

[> [> Thank you. -- Caroline, 06:48:52 07/30/03 Wed

I hold no grudges. Part of the reason that I am a Buffy fan is my own need to believe that growth, change and transformation are possible for all of us. I wish you the best of luck with making the changes you want to make in your life.

[> [> Very nicely put. Good for you! -- Dariel, 11:18:53 07/30/03 Wed

Echoing other posters, that was a very brave thing to do.

BTW, I do think you have some good ideas, but had stopped reading most of your posts. I will be more inclined to read them now. I can even live with a little (hey, he's my favorite character!) Spike negativity.

Can we please stop the board-war? -- grifter, 11:34:08 07/29/03 Tue

Apparently all people come to this board for anymore is to bitch at each other. Can´t we just all get along? I mean, really, ask yourself: is it necessary to come here and instead of posting something that has to do with Buffy or Angel, post an attack against someone you have some kind of disagreement with? Is this what we want this board to be? Another forum in the wonderful world of the internet where people can come to to bitch at each other before it finally gets closed down by the frustrated owner?

I mean, granted, my few posts here may have been entirely forgettable, but that doesn´t mean that this board isn´t important to me. It is. It´s always been the only place on the net I know about where people weren´t constantly bickering at each other instead of doing something interesting.

Already people are leaving. The poster I always looked forward to reading the most, shadowkat, is aparently gone already. Others will follow. If someone can pinpoint me to a Angel/Buffy forum that´s anything like ATPoBTVS/AtS was until recently I´d appreciate it, although I´m skeptical that there is one.

Can we stop this forum from becoming a total mess? Can each of us try to find the inner strentgh not to follow through on the little wars going on? Can we keep or heads cool for a while, try to find another outlet for our aggressions? Can we not destroy this forum? Can we? Please?

[> This'll blow over. -- HonorH, 11:45:28 07/29/03 Tue

Believe me, I've weathered flame-wars on other boards that left my computer with scorch marks. People get touchy (as they are now), and pretty soon, everything's being blown out of proportion. You can see it happening all over in the fandom--boards, lists, and especially LJs.

People may step away for a bit to regain their perspective or to just let themselves cool down. That doesn't mean they're gone for good. S'kat implied she was taking a hiatus, not running screaming into the night. It's only to be expected.

Me, I'm going to sit back and wait for the flames to die down. Pretty soon, we'll be back to abnormal. I'm not worried.

(grips the Badfic Bastinada in case anyone gets too close)

[> [> This too shall pass... -- ZachsMind (singing?), 11:56:07 07/29/03 Tue

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these sunken eyes and learn to see
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to be free.

Blackbird fly blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird fly blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

[The crow's trying to come back up. Quick! More Tums!]

[> [> [> Nice. OT --> Do you know the Waterboys cover of 'Blackbird'? -- pr10n, 18:44:49 07/29/03 Tue

It starts as a cover of Van Morrison's "Sweet Thing" and rolls over into "Blackbird" at the end. Kills.

[> [> [> [> It does, indeed, kill -- Dead (I listened to it once too often) Soul, 20:57:07 07/29/03 Tue

[> If people would stop talking about it, it will stop -- Diana, 11:53:37 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> Throw in a few apologies to that and you've probably got a winning mix -- ponygirl, 12:03:06 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> Obviously, that's not going to happen -- dub, 19:20:19 07/29/03 Tue

[> Board Civility Pack -- Sheri, 12:23:21 07/29/03 Tue

Like grifter, I'm tired of what I've been seeing on this board as of late. So, I'm going to make a promise to this board and I welcome anyone who wishes to, to sign below that they to will keep this promise:

1) I promise to treat my fellow board members and chat room visitors with respect, whether or not they treat me in kind. I will refrain from turning a disagreement into a personal attack, and if I do, I promise to make ammends as quickly and politely as possible.

2) I promise that should I find myself in a disagreement with another poster, I will keep that disagreement between myself and the other poster--not with the board. I will resolve disagreements through either email correspondence or by just simply moving on.

3) I promise that from this point forward, that I will refrain from making "can't we all just get along?" posts like this one, as this really has nothing to do with Philosophy or shows written by Mutant Enemy and posts having to do with these things should not be sacrificed to the Voynac demon.

4) I promise to make every effort to not only read, but also post to threads that deserve our recognition, but that have been ignored due to the current controversy.


[> We can talk baseball. How 'bout them Giants? -- Sophist, 12:31:22 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> Or basketball. The Rockets' new logo looks like ME designed it. -- Arethusa, 12:37:29 07/29/03 Tue


[> [> [> So it does! Thanks, Arethusa! -- Anneth, 12:40:14 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> Any idea if it was intentional? -- Sheri, 12:54:34 07/29/03 Tue

I mean, are a large demographic of Rocket's fans also Buffy fans or is the owner/manager/coach/mascot a bit fan or something? Cause that would be nifty :)

[> [> [> [> I don't know about that -- Arethusa, 13:21:34 07/29/03 Tue

but I forgot to say that she designed the costumes for Coppola's Dracula. Here's a web site about her:


And get a load of this: (scroll down the page a little)


[> [> [> Either that or art-deco on drugs. ; ) -- Masq, 13:04:38 07/29/03 Tue

[> Apologia pro something sua -- Random, 12:36:54 07/29/03 Tue

I read Caro's post about apologizing, and realized a few things.

I admit it. I was there when most of stuff in chat happened. I entered into the middle of a war zone and was instantly deluged with requests for private chats. I had 6 going on simultaneously at one point. Working with everyone. Listening to them grow a little panicky at the way things were going in main chat. And I couldn't do a single damned thing. I might as well not have been there. Dub was always the peacemaker of the board - I'm just friendly and write the occasional thoughtful essay. So I was there and couldn't stop the horror show .

So I apologize. For so many things. I apologize for not stepping right in the middle of it and yelling at everyone so they could focus on me instead, making myself the target. That would have been better than what actually transpired. I apologize to dub for not being there in time to head off Giles' attack. I apologize to dub because she apparently thinks I've been "against her" and I didn't make more effort to let her know how much I really have appreciated her presence on the board during my 2 + years here, how I felt for her when her health suffered in ways that no-one should have to deal with. I apologize to Di for not at least trying to convince people that I think she has shown a real desire to be accepted, for not showing enough faith in her. I apologize to Ruf and Caro for being content just to react rather than attack and offer half-hearted interventions when they needed someone on the outside to get involved. I know that the standard response here is, "It's not your fault." I disagree somewhat. I'm friendly with most of the people involved (though now I suddenly feel a little sick that dub thinks I oppose her because I really want to see people accepted, liked, joined in this board that I am proud -proud - to be a part of.. So I apologize to dub again, because she never should have had reason to think I was against her in any way. The fault is mine.) I have a certain amount of influence...if I choose to.

I apologize to the board, then, as well, because we are all in turmoil. I could have posted more, written more about serious topics like the existentialism post I was working on when I got a frantic IM summons to race to chat. Or the Absurdist Hero post I promised Masq last week and hadn't gotten around to finishing. Given the board something else to read, to talk about besides Angel/Spike or other posters. I could have posted on the other board more instead of an initial meaningless "Hey, how's it going? What's this board's topic?" post. I'm sorry people are having difficulties in their own lives. Believe me, I'm privy to a lot of personal information about many posters and they suffer from RL problems that would have broken someone like me a long time ago. I have trouble understanding how they manage not only to post and be friendly, but to do so with grace and wit and depth of philosophical insight. I wish I could fix everyone's problems, and I know I can't. But that doesn't stop me from wishing. I'm sorry that I was too stand-offish to get really involved in the original flames that started this turmoil. Or maybe too cowardly. I like being liked, you understand. I don't want to get in fights with old friends and favorite debate opponents. I like going to chat and knowing that everyone there will be glad to see me. So I didn't step directly into the line of fire. Instead, I wrote really silly, semi-snarky (but affectionately snarky) posts about shampoo or Miss Kitty Fantastico, and felt inordinately pleased with myself for creating a distraction. I should have been stepping into the middle of the real problem instead. I know that now. So I'm sorry for that, and I apologize.

And I apologize to Masq and d'H. They've worked hard on this board. I can tell, from my communications with them, that they are hurting badly over these things. In a way, it's not as bad as certain other past controversies...but in a way, it's worse, because they feel the pain more personally. I hate that - I adore them both (don't tell d'H I said that, ya'll) and am truly sorry for what this is putting them through.

[> [> I understand how you feel -- LittleBit, 14:13:41 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> Missed it all. Feel like Andrew back from Mexico -- mamcu, 15:41:24 07/30/03 Wed

[> And some of us get shoved off the crater edge. -- Darby, 13:43:03 07/29/03 Tue

I'm feeling like my "Buffy issues" thread was the Sunnydale sign. I guess I knew I was taking that risk...

Doesn't anyone want to discuss the, um, Buffy side of the topic?

[> [> Want me to bring that thread back? -- Masq, 13:52:29 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> Please do! -- Sheri, 15:13:37 07/29/03 Tue

[> Can we please have some faith in Joss? -- JCC, 06:30:31 07/30/03 Wed

Yes, "Angel" is going to change a lot next year. But, Joss has given us 7 years of great TV, so can we please wait and see instead of getting into arguements about Spike.
It's pointless to argue, because whether you are a Spike Lover or Hater, we have to keep an open mind and trust that Joss is doing the right thing.

[> [> It would also be wise to remember... -- Rob, 09:29:24 07/30/03 Wed

...that love the idea of Spike joining AtS or not, it is extremely unlikely that the show would be on the air this year were it not for the addition of James Marsters. He was one of the major deciding factors in the show's renewal this season, so people who adore AtS but Spike not so much should at least try to begrudgingly welcome Spike, if only because it's better to have a show with one character you don't like than no show at all. And I know some people resent the fact that Spike seems to have "saved" AtS, which is understandable, but that is the way Hollywood works. And I have faith that Joss will pull this off admirably.


[> [> [> Yeah, what Rob just said. -- deeva, 11:12:16 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: It would also be wise to remember... -- Masq, 12:15:50 07/30/03 Wed

Just a small, politely-spoken little point I'd like to make here.

I'm sure everyone here knows the difference between a quality show and show that does well in the ratings. Many old "AtS" fans are just kinda miffed at the very idea that AtS had to be "saved" in the first place.

The show was a critical success, had good characters, strong writing, and had a loyal fan following. The WB didn't help the show around by moving it from night to night, giving it weak lead-ins and failing to show re-runs.

These same fans get a little defensive when "reminded" (however nicely) that the show "had to be saved" from cancellation by, well, anything. Forgive us that weakness.

At this point I will stop this post and stare smiling at the love-fest in the threads above.

[> [> [> [> Can I second that? -- Diana, 12:23:54 07/30/03 Wed

So as the First and Last Evils, the Alpha and Omega have spoken. :-)

If I am going to watch what I say, I would appreciate the courteousy was returned in regards to my favorite show.

And if you didn't know Masq, DB is appearing in Dido's next video. He's really been out there lately. Here's crossing fingers that he really will get to play Batman. Then we can discuss the similarities between Angel and Batman until our hearts explode in a radiant shower of darkness.

[> [> [> [> Oh, I completely understand... -- Rob, 12:35:38 07/30/03 Wed

...and wasn't exactly sure when I posted that whether I should have, because like I said, I believe myself that AtS shouldn't have to have been saved, and was worried of possibly offending people with the post. Although I am a Spike fan, I do resent The WB's treatment of AtS in the past (and in the present--um, where are the reruns?!?), and extremely dislike their current ad campaign of having Spike's name and face feature just as prominently (arguably even more so) than Angel's. Although I would love to see Buffy characters on Angel, this is Angel's show, and I don't want to see these character crossovers or moves overpowering Angel himself. Personally, I'm most happy about JM on AtS for the chance to see some more Fanged Four flashbacks (praying for Juliet Landau and Julie Benz's availability!).

I finally decided to post my above response, just because the sentiment behind it, at least for me, helped put things in perspective...For example, I would much rather live with the flaws in the seventh season of Buffy than have not had a seventh season at all. I didn't mean to bring up a sore point, and I apologize if my post caused more harm than good.


[> [> [> [> [> Oh, you know I luv you, Rob! -- Masq, 12:52:40 07/30/03 Wed

As you can tell, my reply demonstrated my similar trepedation at straying near this topic, peppered as it was with self-effacement and trademark politeness.

It's too bad there is such an air of defensiveness on all sides of this little issue that we must discuss it with our kid gloves on if we brave to post on it at all.

But I'd rather have a happy board!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Hee hee. Right back atcha, Masq! [hugs] -- Rob, 12:57:01 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> The only thing AtS needed to be saved from was the WB -- Dariel, 20:11:43 07/30/03 Wed

No need to feel even a little bit defensive. Really good shows get cancelled so often, it's almost a badge of honor. And bad ones seem to hang around forever. Such as any of those reality shows. Or "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit." Every week a new sex crime story. Ugh! (Actually, it's a pretty well-done show. Still, how can it go on for years and years?)

Fun, distracting game.. -- dream, 13:21:32 07/29/03 Tue

Down in the Andrew/Jonathon thread, Zachsmind and I each posted our dream Buffy spinoffs. For the sake of discussing something light, entertaining and actually Buffy related, I would like to request fantasy spinoff scenarios. Whom would you like to see doing what where? (Be nice.)

[> Re: Fun, distracting game.. -- Alison, 13:38:24 07/29/03 Tue

I realize that this is totally impossible, but the idea of a spinoff with Willow and Spike, with the former ensouling vampires as they emerge from the grave, and that later helping them through vampirism really appeals to me. Spike and Willow are a great combination, and we didn't see enough of them together in season 7. Xander should be there too...for conflict, and just because I love him.

[> [> Give this a try... -- Darby, 19:46:41 07/30/03 Wed

Go to


do a search (CTRL-F) for "triage" and read the opening scene of your spin-off.

[> [> [> Neato. Thanks Darby :) -- Alison, 03:55:10 07/31/03 Thu

[> Don't you mean 'doing what with whom'? Heh. -- Sophist, 13:49:10 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> Re: Spike & Willow -- Brian, 15:52:06 07/29/03 Tue

Some years ago I read a series of fanfic stories about Spike and Willow becoming lovers. Buffy had been killed, a new slayer had been called. Willow was in a emotional deep freeze, and Spike thawed her out.

[> Re: Fun, distracting game.. -- ponygirl, 13:59:08 07/29/03 Tue

Aside from your Ripper idea, which I still really really hope happens, I'd like to see some sort of Tales of the Slayer type anthology show. Each episode we'd see a different Slayer in a different time period. There'd be some overlap with present day events - we could see how Vi is adjusting to her new life, Buffy would be in a very special episode or two, perhaps we could go back to the summer Faith was called or see her first weeks in prison - and familiar vamps and villians could turn up through the ages as well.

I'd love to see Slayers in very different cultures, and I've always been curious about Buffy's immediate predecessor - the one Whistler said wasn't as pretty as Buffy.

[> [> I like this idea -- KdS, 15:12:22 07/29/03 Tue

But the problem is it needs lots of authors to do it well. Most authors, I think, are incapable of really understanding more than one or two cultures that aren't their own, and the idea would only work to its full potential if there was a conscious avoidance of cliche or philosophical anachronism. You could have the chance to really get something good across that this isn't the only culture in history where women could be anything other than doormats, but it would be easy to slide into Whig history or shallow Girl Power anachronism.

[> Re: Fun, distracting game.. -- Sheri, 14:07:03 07/29/03 Tue

"The Unhappiest Man in Sunnydale"

Uh-oh, someone forgot to tell Bob Dickersen to get out of Dodge!

Episode 1: Bob's partner for the big charades game at the underworld picnic is the wacky First Evil! Will they win against 10,000,000 crispy Turok Hans? Tune in this fall to find out!

[> Slayer School -- Arethusa, 14:07:18 07/29/03 Tue

Like Hogwarts. Send the new potentials and watchers to school together in Hampshire. Scoobies could teach or lecture, amoung others. Heh, I guess it could be a bit like Honor H's OBFU.

[> Buffy RoadRules -- Anneth, 14:21:55 07/29/03 Tue

I'd love to see The Trip to Cleveland. Think of all the wacky adventures the gang could have in, say, Bucksnort, Arkansas, or at Mt. Rushmore? (perhaps a sly parody of North by Northwest?)

Acutally, I would die a happy woman if I could have a five-minute-long sequence of the entire crew at an ice skating rink. For example: Buffy decides the SiTs need a field-trip and off they trot, to the local Sunnydale Hockey Rink/Roller-Derby (summers only). Faith and Buffy get into an ice-race, Xander falls a lot, Anya makes snide remarks from the side-lines, Giles skates along gracefully (if also suspiciously near the wall...), Spike wobbles, Dawn tries to give everyone lessons (I'm sure she's as graceful on ice as she is otherwise), Kennedy shows off and is bratty, Willow holds her hand and lets Kennedy pull her around ('mush!'), and the SiTs clump together and look confused but excited.

[> Re: Fun, distracting game.. -- Masq, 14:42:54 07/29/03 Tue

Angel: the Series with Connor back. (Now there's a shocker)

No mind-wipe, and lots of cross-overs from the ex-Sunnydale gang.

[> 'No Really You Think?' The Series (in more detail) -- ZachsMind, 21:54:38 07/29/03 Tue

What the hell. It'll never happen. So just for grins here's the rundown in my head. If at this moment Whedon gave me a phonecall and said "pitch it to me baby. Let's throw your idea at the wall and see if it sticks!" ..this is what I'd say. And understand it's a constantly evolving concept so would no doubt change between now and when hell freezes over... y'know I mean when Whedon actually calls me.

"No Really You Think?" The Series
starring Nicholas Brendon (Xander)
Kelly Brendon (another Xander)
Danny Strong (Jonathan)
Michelle Trachtenberg (Dawn)
Elizabeth Allen (Amy)

This isn't a vampire thing. Vampires might show up, but they'll never be the show's focus. Nor will demons. What is the focus of this series is subjective reality, and how everything that could happen no matter how remotely probable, has happened. Somewhen. Somewhere. But there's barriers between these alternate subjective realities, and for four people, those barriers are breaking down.

To be honest, I could feasibly do this story without Strong & Allen but I'd rather not, because I happen to adore anything those two do on screen. However I could rework this to not include them, and replace their roles with other characters. I do not believe I could do the same without Trachtenberg & Brendon. If I didn't have those two as the glue of the story idea, I'd have to start from scratch.

This idea evolved from "Zeppo The Series" an idea I played with a couple years ago after seing the episode Zeppo for the first time. It was just Xander and Jonathan. They both saw a beautiful woman and a really cool car. They fought over her while she lured them on. Then it turned out she was actually a succubus who was tempting them to their deaths, and they were forced to work together in order to defeat her. After they defeat her, they're left with her car, which they decide to steal.

The problem with the car was that it was her mode of transport not just from one place to another, but from one alternate reality to another. She knew how to drive it. Jonathan and Xander obviously did not. So every time they got in the car and drove anywhere, when they stopped driving, they'd be in an alternate reality. A reality in which there was no slayer and no sunnydale and no way of getting back home. The series therefore would be about their journeys running higgledy piggledy through the Many Worlds theory of Quantum Mechanics, trying vainly to get back home. And sometimes they'd appear to get close, but all their friends would look different, or people they recognized would look the same but be entirely different from what they were before. Continuity would go completely out the window on purpose. And since there's a backseat, they'd occasionally pick up hitch hikers, either on purpose or accidently. However the only regular characters would be Xander & Jonathan.

Sound familiar? Ultimately, it's Sliders. So in this new incarnation, I try to make it a bit more complicated. First off, there's no car. There's no tangible thing which is causing this. Something sentient is involved, but there's also other factors. And while over time the four of them learn one factor or another, it takes them years to put all the pieces together, and by series end seven to ten seasons later, well.. I'd jump that bridge if I came to it.

But for starters we have the four principals of this fantasy spinoff. Xander, Jonathan, Dawn and Amy. Let's start with Xander. The astute among you will have noticed that above I listed both Nick and Kelly. There's gonna be a lot of duplication here, because at least at the beginning of the series, there'd be two Xanders.

Xander 1 is about as close to the Xander we remember from the end of Buffy. A couple years have passed. We learn that after Sunnydale cratered, the gang continued together in the bus for awhile, but some people wanted to go to Cleveland and check out the new Hellmouth, some people wanted to follow Willow and seek out new Slayers, some wanted to go to Disneyland and some people wanted to just have a normal life. Giles left for England. Willow & Kennedy had a falling out and Kennedy went home to her parents. Buffy..? Well nobody talks about Buffy. Whenever she comes up viewers should get the indication that she's not dead or anything and she hasn't turned evil or whatever but people are just a little disappointed in whatever decision she made, and kinda blame her for the gang schisming and drifting apart.

Anyway, Xander 1 followed Willow and some of the other slayers for awhile. They spent a year finding other slayers and helping them understand their destiny and getting into scrapes and saving the world two or three times. Then one day Willow did a spell trying to heal Xander's eye. She was trying to give him normal vision again. Xander 1 got upset when things didn't work out well. He can see, but it's like sometimes "truesight" and sometimes whatever he looks at just blows up so he keeps the eyepatch on, and he's just mad at Willow now.

Xander 2? Well. He's not mad at Willow. He hasn't seen Willow in a long time. When we first see him, he's still living in his basement with his parents, and he's like almost 30 years old. He has both his eyes. He watches a lot of tv. He never became friends with anybody really. He went to Buffy's place one time for a party when she came back from L.A.? He wasn't invited he just sorta tagged along with some other people? And he saw Buffy and her mom yell at each other and Buffy then turned to Xander and said something to him. He was standing by the dip.

This other time there was this beautiful foreign exchange student who almost kissed him at The Bronze? But she was Jonathan's boyfriend, so he had to bail. Then there was this time when he got real depressed and was gonna kill himself? But then Buffy showed up at the clocktower and took the gun out of his hand and broke it over her knee. Then for awhile he dabbled with magic but it was too much like chemistry at school and it just sucked. In this alternate reality where Xander 2 comes from, Jonathan and Amy came to Buffy's aid and helped her and Giles save the world. Some things happened a little differently, but for the most part it's just that Willow became a rat here and Amy went good and fell in love with Tara. That kinda differences. Meanwhile, Xander hasn't changed much at all since the first season. He's a complete and utter loser and rather satisfied with that.

Until Xander 1, thinking he's somehow gone back in time, confronts Xander 2 and tries to tell himself about the future, but over time the two Xanders slowly figure out that they're not past & future selves from the same linear reality. They're identical temporally, but they're from alternate realities.

Dawn is THE Dawn from the original series, but she's not with Xander 1 when we first meet her, and neither Xander recognizes her until after she physically touches one and then he remembers as if she were always a part of his reality. She's somehow lost cohesion with her own alternate reality, and her existence has something to do with this merging of alternate realities that appears to be happening. There are NEVER any duplicates of Dawn. There's ONLY one Dawn in any alternate reality, and she is slowly losing her matter form for favor of her true energy form. This isn't evident at first. It's a very slow process. At first, she discovers she's got energy powers. She can control the ebb and flow of electricity for example in power lines. She can sense energy sources and can kinda 'see' the neural synaptic relays inside a person's body, if she concentrates. She's later able to conserve energy into herself and then discharge it against bad guys without any adverse damage to herself. After awhile though, she finds that she can walk through walls and sometimes slips through floors. She has to start actually concentrating on remaining physically tangible. Ultimately, the longer she is far away from her own true reality, the worse this gets. If she doesn't someday find her way back home to a reality where people actually recognize her, she's going to slowly fade away into nothing. This will take a minimum of two seasons, and for some reason the presence of any Xander (even though he doesn't recognize her) works as a temporary stop plug, putting her condition in remission.

Jonathan and Amy keep changing on us in early episodes. While Dawn is always the same girl no matter what else is going on, cuz she's the only her in the entire multiverse, she and Xander keep meeting Jonathan and Amy over and over again. Sometimes a given Jon or Amy will happen to slip into an alternate reality with them. When that happens there's two Jons or Amys in that reality, and the one they left no longer has a Jon or Amy. Usually though, the Jons and Amys in these other realities are either good guys or bad guys or innocent bystanders. And in a number of these alternate realities, Jon & Amy are trying to summon Xander for some reason that is different in each different reality.

Eventually, Dawn & the Xanders meet with a Jonathan who is undead. He's not a vampire. He's not a mindless zombie. He's not a ghost or spectre. He's just undead. He has died, and yet there is something powerful that is keeping him alive in a mystical, artificial way. He doesn't know what or why. It leaves him in perpetual suspicion and mild paranoia. The reality he comes from is very unstable and by the time Dawn & the Xanders are on their way out, this undead Jonathan finds a way to tag along.

The various Amys are sometimes beneficial and sometimes malicious. The others are constantly being betrayed by her, and then she turns around and saves their butts, seemingly being redemptive. Occasionally two Amys face off, one bad one good. Almost all variations of Amys are into magic one one level or another. Then there's one Amy that comes along which Xander can't bring himself to let go. She's an Amy who thinks she's Willow. And she might be right.

The ultimate goal of each of them is different. A number of factors are involved in keeping the four of them together. Some come to light early on in the series, but other elements remain elusive. The Xanders each want to get back to their realities, and they also want to care for Dawn. Dawn's ultimate goal is also to return home. Jonathan doesn't want to go back to where he came from. He wants to find out what's making him nigh-invulnerable, and he'd also like to find a reality that doesn't look at him funny when he loses a limb and it grows back. The Amy who thinks she's Willow wants to find the Willow who thinks she's Amy from her same reality, and get her body back.

Ultimately every episode will have the humor of the episode The Zeppo and the fun craziness of Restless.

Well. That was fun. =)

[> [> Re: 'No Really You Think?' The Series (in more detail) -- skpe, 13:20:30 07/30/03 Wed

I like it. Call WB and I am sure they will green light it

[> Re: Fun, distracting game.. -- JCC, 06:00:11 07/30/03 Wed

How about turning JBone's game into a series. Like Celebrity Deathmatch, but with the Buffy characters. ;o)

Or, if all else fails, a Jerry Springer type chat show hosted by Clem. ("And now... Clem's final thought.")

[> I'm writing a spin off where Spike plays for the Red Wings. -- Rochefort, 21:48:07 07/30/03 Wed

[> 'Buffy: the Vampire Slayer Returns' -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:46:43 07/30/03 Wed

13 years have passed since a Vampire Slayer battled with the source of all evil. 13 years since the destruction of the Hellmouth. 13 years since a thousand women around the world were transformed into Slayers.

Much has changed in that time.

Dawn is living in New York City. She's engaged to be married and has made a small fortune by writing accounts of Buffy and her various battles to save the world.

Xander is married to Vampire Slayer Nicole Adams. They live a relatively quiet life in Pittsburg, and their second child is on the way.

Giles has been dead for eight years. A gradually worsening heart condition finally killed him shortly after he retired to England.

Kennedy is also dead. She and Willow stayed together for two years before they broke it off. A year later, Willow was attacked by a demon who was immune to magic. Kennedy gave up her life protecting Willow from it.

Willow runs the International Slayer Institute, an organization designed to help and guide Slayers all over the world. While it is centered in New York City, Willow can reach Slayers everywhere using her mystical connection to them. Besides, with her magical talents now almost godlike, the boundaries of distance seem trivial. Willow is very involved with her work at the ISI and seldom has time to develop relationships.

Faith now lives in Chicago. She has never yet had a job or a relationship over 6 months (the record being set by Robin Wood). Instead, she lives off money provided by Willow and the ISI. She fought demons for a while, but, over time, she gave it up. For the most part she just sits around in her home doing nothing.

After Faith broke up with him, Wood went on another stint as a lone demon fighter, but soon also gave it up. He is now the principal of John Adams High School of Little Rock, Arkansas.

Andrew was apprehended by the police in 2006. He served a year in jail before the President pardoned him due to his bravery in defending the world. He now works as a computer programmer for GilTech Software. He has also finally come out of the closet.

As for Buffy, she founded the International Slayer Institute along with Willow. However, after about a month as co-chairwoman, she gave it up, realizing the job just wasn't for her. She countinued to fight demons and help guide individual Slayers for a while, but eventually retired in 2009. She has finally obtained her college diploma, but hasn't found a career she actually wants to pursue. Her love life has faired much the same, with a few relationships that never become anything big. For the past two years she's been living in Cleveland under an assumed name (not enjoying her celebrity status too much) and has been working as a waitress at a Red Lobster. It probably won't last too long; her jobs never seem to.

OK, that's the basic backstory. Whew! Took me a while to type all of that out. Well, anyway, after reading all that, you're probably wondering where I'm going with this, right? Well, my idea for this came from the comic book "Batman: the Dark Knight Returns", where an aging Batman returns from a ten year retirement to fight a new wave of crime in Gotham City, often working against the police in doing so. Much the same happens with Buffy. She's now 35 years old; far from decrepit, but not quite able to kick ass like she could 13 years ago. For the past few years she's been retired from being a Vampire Slayer, trusting in Willow and Slayers across the world to keep humanity safe.

It turns out, though, that her trust was misplaced. Nearly all of the world's Slayers work for the ISI under Willow's guidance, and Willow, it is revealed, has let beaurocracy take over. She spends most of her time dealing with politicians and diplomats, working to integrate the ISI into the UN. This has the unpleasant side effect of making Slayers pretty much useless. They're practically forbidden from slaying for fear of being tagged as supporting the country where the slaying took place. Of the few Slayers not bound by Willow's ISI restrictions, most aren't any more useful. A lot of them just try to ignore their powers and lead a normal life. Others are corrupted by their Slayer abilities and become criminals. Only a small number actually fights the forces of darkness.

With Slayer activity worldwide brought almost to a stand still, vampires and demons start to thrive once again. Their numbers grow larger and they start feeding off humanity once again. And, with the aid of corrupt businessmen and public officals, they're able to go about their evil ways without drawing too much attention.

Buffy knows this is happening. She lives in Cleveland, home to the world's last known Hellmouth, and she sees how demons and vampires are once again rising to plague the world. She tries to tell Willow, explain to her what's happening, but she's too preoccupied with the political side of her work. After seven years of watching the world get worse and worse, Buffy finally realizes she has only one choice: she must be a Vampire Slayer again. But it won't be easy. At thirty-five, slaying is a lot harder on the body than it used to be; all those punches and kicks she used to shrug off are now far more likely to leave their mark on her. Plus, in addition to the demons of the world, Buffy must also fight against the Slayer Sisters, a group of rouge Slayers whose favorite pastime is killing people for fun. But, undoubtedly, Buffy's greatest enemy is Willow. As Buffy's slaying starts drawing attention, rumors start up that she's being supported by the ISI. As these rumors spread, many countries accuse Willow of playing favorites: setting up an active Slayer in America but not anywhere else. As rumors and accusations spread, Willow starts to realise the only way to keep her image of neutrality intact is to work against Buffy, leading to a David & Goliath struggle between Buffy and Willow.

OK, whaddaya think?

Magic in Buffyverse -- Rina, 13:41:09 07/29/03 Tue

The ATPoBtVS first claimed that magic in Buffyverse isn't good or evil, but neutral. Yet, Giles stated in "Two to Go/Graves" that Earth-centered power is the "true essence of magic", which seemed to contradict the "neutral" theory. What's the true answer?

[> Magic -- Arethusa, 13:53:30 07/29/03 Tue

No answers, just more questions. I thought it was very interesting that W&H got their power from the sun (Ra-Tet) and the Devon Coven got their power from the earth. Does it depend on whether the magic is asked for and given, rather than taken by force? Or just how it is used? And it seems that Earth magic can manipulate the natural order (grow a flower from Paraguey) but evil magic can't (bring back Tara), at least not without potentially dangerous consequences. Or are there several contradictions I'm forgetting? :)

[> I don't think that the ideas of 'earth' and 'neutral' are mutually exclusive -- Anneth, 14:01:28 07/29/03 Tue

Giles could mean only that Earth-centered power can be neutral much the way the Earth itself is neutral; the Earth doesn't care whether its volcanoes are creating the Hawaiian islands or destroying Pompeii. The Earth, like magic, can be either beneficial or harmful. It doesn't determine which tag is attached to what effect. It has no stake in the outcome. It is merely the source of power.

[> Re: Magic in Buffyverse -- dmw, 16:45:06 07/29/03 Tue

In fiction and myth, magic can be divided into three general classes. Many works, like BtVS, use aspects of more than one class of magic, i.e. the Force in Star Wars is mostly psychic abilities with an element of real magic behind it. It's also possible for individuals to be able to use multiple types of magic even when they are separate entities in the story, such as the herald-mages of Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books having access to both mental abilities and pure magic.

1. Mental (psychic) abilities: developing the innate abilities of the human mind to supernormal capabilities, generally limited to the person's own body or extensions of the body (i.e., telepathy is a supernormal extension of speaking and telekinesis is a supernormal extension of using one's hands.) The Bene Gesserit abilities from the Dune books, ranging from increased speed to suspended animation to the voice of command, are an example of this type of magic. They may be innate abilities or they may be something anyone can develop. Other common abilities include clairvoyance and precognition. This type of magic generally requires nothing but mental concentration. There is no ethical imperative associated with this type of magic.

2. Invocations: requesting a spirit or deity to perform actions on one's behalf. Religious miracles fall into this category, but spells in many traditions invoke help for practictioners even if the casters are not priests. This type of magic generally requires words of supplication, though help can more riskily be demanded from these sources, and often requires a sacrifice of some sort, ranging from incense to the blood or organs of an animal. Belief and a good "credit rating" with these forces are the most important requirements for the caster's power. The ethics of this type of magic depend on the types of spirits invoked.

3. Pure magic: controlling a non-personal force, which may despite its lack of consciousness still have specific ethical tendencies which can affect how a spell works. The caster performs supernormal actions by his command of this force, which may require innate ability but which always requires knowledge to apply effectively. These spells may be performed with words, symbols, gestures, and material objects that are relevant according to the laws of similarity or association. Which classes of components are required can vary between spells. This type of magic can have ethical consequences, generally as a forces of both evil and good magic existing for the caster to choose between, but it may also be an impersonal force like gravity that is neither good nor evil.

Willow and Tara use each of these forms of magic at one time or another. Their telekinesis and Willow's telepathy clearly fall under the category of psychic abilities, and neither of these appear to have moral consequence.

Their quick one word spells and casting by gesture fall under pure magic, and here Tara's use appears to be good whereas Willow's is often evil, as shown by her dark magic eyes and perhaps also in the directly destructive consequences of the spells.

Most longer rituals such as Buffy's resurrection appear to be invocations, requesting some higher (or lower) force for aid in the spell. Osiris appears to be an evil force, though that's not completely clear. The god Janus in the form that Ethan Rayne invokes may provide a clearer example of an evil being used in a spell.

Designing Women and Buffy??? -- isis, 15:31:30 07/29/03 Tue

Last night I was watching the Designing Women Reunion - yup, I always liked that show. Julia's speech on the right of Americans NOT to say the Pledge of Allegiance was one of the best- Anyway, when they were showing clips of various episodes they showed one with Mary Jo on a rant about needing women heroes. (very paraphrased here): "Just once I'd like to see a woman be able to fight back. To be able to fight off the attacker before all her friends are killed, be able to use the gun before the man rips it out of her wimpy hands" I stood up in my living room, shouting "Buffy!" OK, so the gun part doesn't exactly fit- and there was more said- But it was a great description of BtVS.
I know that Joss's background in television is extensive-does anyone know if he had any connection with Linda Bloodworth? No, no I'm not saying that she is responsible in any way shape or form for Buffy, but Mary Jo's speech was such a call for action.
It was a fun moment.

[> Yahh for L.B.! plus some female tv characters that predate Buffy ... -- WickedBuffy, 16:00:57 07/29/03 Tue

I don't mean in the "they did it first" sense. Not competitive at all. It's a group effort.

It's been a long evolutionary process on television, with other pioneers helping clear the way so we could have a Buffy.

The earliest one I can think of, "Honey West". Was it the 1960's? She was a detective draped in furs who could karae kick the gun out of a guys hands while she powdered her face. And she had a beautiful leopard or some cat with her. It was the first time I saw a woman not having to always be saved. (I barely remeber it, mstly I remember being impressed because she wasn't like the other tv females.

The next would be Emma Peele, of "The Avengers". She upped it several notches. I can't even begin to describe her.

There are more, I just didn't watch them - some of you could probably fill it in. (Emma Peele captaining that starship?)

I'm sure there were more. It feels like Buffy, at this period in time, is a wonderful symbol of how far women have come as heroes.

Can you imagine what the result of Buffy's contribution will lead to?

(sorry, my tv viewing is limited to US shows, those are the only kind of examples I have.)

[> [> Re: Yahh for L.B.! plus some female tv characters that predate Buffy ... -- Elenphant, 23:58:01 07/29/03 Tue

I remember watching the Wonder Woman series with Linda Carter, and I used to be a big fan of She-Ra. And there was of course Xena: Warrior Princess. I also liked the Supergirl movie a lot.


[> [> [> Vh1's list of 200 pop icons -- Diana, 05:55:44 07/30/03 Wed

And no Buffy unfortunately didn't make the list, directly. Superman was #2, though. I forgot where Batman was, but he was fairly high as well. Same with Spiderman. Wonder Woman didn't fare quite as well, but she did make it (don't remember where, I think it was near Spiderman). They introduced her by saying "Before Xena and before Buffy..." so in a way Buffy made it.

In "What's My Line" Buffy talked about wanting to be Dorothy Hamil. That exchange with Angel (which is one of my favorites in the show's history. Go MARTI!!!!!) reminded me of whom I wanted to be--Wonder Woman. I was Wonder Woman for Halloween. I had the doll, the underroos, the sheets, the lunchbox, everything. I used to go outside and spin, a lot, to the point of making myself sick. Getting me out of the tiara and wrist bands was quite an undertaking that few dared to attempt.

She was one of the very few female superheroes there were and unlike the boys, I didn't have a plethora of female sports stars to idolize. That is why Buffy wanted to be Dorothy Hamil. I didn't learn about the amazing Jean Gray until much later. Even so, these female heroes still fell into traditionally male ideas.

But Marti's Buffy really broke the mold. Even Joss' is all about power. That power is symbolized by her Slayerness. Marti gives Buffy her real power. Buffy is the FIRST really feminine super hero, written not just on a male's perspective of power and conflict, but something much deeper that had only been really seen in things like Designing Women and drama previously.

We've come a long way baby, but we still have a way to go. Luckily women like Mary Shelley, Madeleine L'Engle, Anne McCaffrey, Ursula Le Guin, Margaret Atwood and Marion Bradly Zimmer have shown us that women can write more than just drama. These women and the characters they have created are my heroes.

[> [> [> [> I wonder how they made the list? And if that explains the Buffy omission. -- WB, 10:27:04 07/30/03 Wed

Lists are so subjective and they obviously didn't confer with us about it. :>

ps I never could figure out what fuel Wonder Womans invisible plane ran on.

Lies My Parents Told Me Relook (spoilers for Season 7.17) -- heywhynot, 19:41:50 07/29/03 Tue

So I am sitting here watching LMPTM again and I am struck at the interesting dynamics going on. You have Wood who wants to avenge his mother's death. Of course he can't kill Spike outright, he needs to release the monster in order to kill him. He wants to kill the monster and actually succeeds in doing that. Giles returns from England knowing Spike is dangerous having a trigger that is waiting for the First to activate Spike as a killer. He is not thrilled with what Wood has planned and at first defers to Buffy's lead (not thrilled about it). Wood presses Giles's buttons though. Giles at this point is lost. The Council is gone, he has no answers in his books like he did during the first couple of season, his daughter no longer needs him to be the adult. He hangs onto the role that gave him direction in life, that of a Watcher. One who believes the ends that justify the means. In this episode this aspect takes fully over as he diverts Buffy away from Woods & Spike. It is not true to who he is and you can tell he is straining under the role.

Spike is fighting the cure. He doesn't want to face what happened with his mother and the monster that is inside him. What is interesting is that once he overcomes his issues, he goes off on Wood. Spike is one who reminds us that the Slayer is alone, the Chosen One. Taunting Robin with this, saying that his mom did not love him enough to stop Slaying. Spike is trapped in the same mindset, the same rules as everyone. He doesn't get why Nikki couldn't give up her role as the Slayer, because there wasn't another. Love of Robin might of kept her fighting as the Slayer. Only her death would allow another Slayer to be born. Spike has been the one over the years who was reminding Buffy she was alone, the Chosen One. Just an interesting note.

Buffy wants to help Spike be free of the First but doesn't want him to be killed, she believes in him and the fact he is important to the battle. She doesn't want to look at the opition of giving up on Spike. She is the hero and must be full of hope. At the end she tells Giles she has learned all she could from Giles, but the irony is that the reason she chooses to keep Spike & slams the door on Giles is in keeping with being a general.

The greatest irony of course is that Wood is the one who forces Spike to save himself. Was there another way? Was Spike repressing soo much that if Wood hadn't carried out his plan that he would of remained under the control of the First?

Everything soon falls apart after this. It is not until Buffy ends her role as the general & returns to being herself, Giles frees himself of his Watcher mode & acts as himself, Wood is true to himself & gives up the revenge fantasy and Spike decides to fight not just to win Buffy over but to fight the good fight does everything come together.

The roles clearly stated this episode as facts (Buffy as the general, Giles the Watcher, and the Slayer as the Chosen One, alone in the world) are thrown out the window. All shown to be lies told by previous generations.

[> Re: Lies My Parents Told Me Relook (spoilers for Season 7.17) -- Yellow Bear, 19:54:00 07/29/03 Tue

Very interesting. Loved the part about Giles. An excellent description of his character's journey this year.

Now, back to the shadows.

[> Chosen does give a new perspective on this episode -- Diana, 06:28:57 07/30/03 Wed

And I will admit that I didn't watch it again last night. I have ZERO desire to see this episode again and had more important things to do.

However, in light of "Chosen," Spike's words to Wood take on a new light. Spike's redemption isn't until his final act. Until that point, the writers have to figure out how to balance the changes that should occur because he has a soul and a Spike that doesn't quite get it yet. They didn't know how to do that, so Spike spent a good chunk of time in the basement and being tortured. This upset many viewers, but Spike's role in the story doesn't come until we get closer to the final 5.

This episode shows souled Spike, but still not quite getting it Spike. All of Spike's advice/interaction with others are colored by his own baggage (like anyone's is). In this case, Spike is still trying to be good, but he doesn't quite feell his soul yet. He may be trying to be good, but he doesn't really understand that yet. He doesn't understand that Nikki HAD to do what she did. He doesn't understand how our soul drives us. He doesn't understand it, because he isn't experiencing it yet. Instead thinks that Nikki just didn't love Robin enough. Afterall, Love's Bitch would do anything for love. Why wouldn't Nikki?

Now take that to "Chosen," where Spike now feels his soul. Four simple words "I gotta do this." Spike is now in the position that Nikki and Buffy are in because of their souls.

To me, after looking back on "Chosen" that is what the writers were driving at. It brings up Buffy dieing for Dawn. She says that she wouldn't any more. That point was talked about when the episode first aired. This is Buffy being disconnected from her soul, which is that guiding star that will tell her where to go. Giles' actions, Woods' actions. The real lie is in this disconnection.

Just some thoughts.

[> Re: Lies My Parents Told Me Relook (spoilers for Season 7.17) -- MaeveRigan, 06:57:10 07/30/03 Wed

"Wood presses Giles's buttons though."

So true. Consciously or unconsciously, Wood reminds Giles of his deepest fear--losing his Slayer--when his words must remind Giles of the prophecy that led to Buffy's first death: "Now [Spike]'s gonna prove to be [...] Buffy's undoing, and she will never--never see it coming."

Compare the prophecy about "the Anointed One" from B1.5 "Never Kill a Boy on the First Date" (the Master reads this to his minions, but Giles obviously has a copy of the same prophecy):

Master: 'And there will be a time of crisis, of worlds hanging in the balance. And in this time shall come the Anointed, the Master's great warrior. And the Slayer will not know him, will not stop him, and he will lead her into Hell.'

[> Giles is and always shall be the Man Behind Blue Eyes -- Diana, 06:58:42 07/30/03 Wed

The first time we see Giles' sing is in "Where the Wild Things Are," and what he sings is his theme song to me. I can see why Joss wants to write Ripper. Ripper isn't like any character that Joss writers, not even quite Wesley.

The Who: Behind Blue Eyes

No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes

No one knows what it's like
To be hated
To be fated
To telling only lies

But my dreams, they aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free

No one knows what it's like
To feel these feelings
Like I do
And I blame you

No one bites back as hard
On their anger
None of my pain and woe
Can show through

When my fist clenches, crack it open
Before I use it and lose my cool
When I smile, tell me some bad news
Before I laugh and act like a fool

And if I swallow anything evil
Put your finger down my throat
And if I shiver, please give me a blanket
Keep me warm, let me wear your coat

No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes

In a universe where the conscience/soul is the difference between Angel and Angelus, this is a very interesting song for Giles to be singing. Giles has always been lost because his conscience seems empty. In "The Wish" he is able to smash Anyanka's Power Source because of his dreams of a better world. I think season 7, it isn't the destruction of just the Watcher's Council that disables him. It is losing his dreams. He doesn't believe that the First can be defeated. His interaction with the Beljoxia's Eye is desparate and almost difficult to watch. There HAS to be a way of defeating the First. Compare Giles there to him in "The Wish" and this comes through so much that it is painful.

Buffy gives him back his dreams when she comes up with a solution. The Man Behind Blue Eyes can hope again, which can keep his empty conscience in check. Giles is mind, only mind. He is a fascinating character that I look forward to watching Joss explore in the next few years.

[> [> Re: Giles is and always shall be the Man Behind Blue Eyes -- heywhynot, 10:22:16 07/30/03 Wed

I agree that Giles during most of Season 7 is a man without hope. The organization that pulled away from a path of chaos & acts of evil, was destroyed by the First Evil. The books are destroyed, the knowledge of the Watchers is for the most part gone. The organizational expertise is with the books. The group that represents his father is dead. SiT & potentials are being slaughtered left and right. Uber-vamps are rising that can give his Slayer a real run for his money. His daughter is an adult and isn't sure where he fits in her life. Those opposing the First include a Vampire who can be triggered to kill by the First, a Slayer who just spent the previous year in a serious depression, an ex-vegenance demon, a teenage girl who used to be the Key, a witch who just a few months ago almost destroyed the world herself & is petrified she will do it again & still morning the loss of her lover, and wisecracking but really nice/full of heart carpenter, not to mention a group of scared young women.

His father taught him of the greatness of the Watcher's Council since he was probably born. He rebelled for a time but came into the fold. The lie his father told him that he was a Watcher part of an organization that enables the Slayer to do her job. Though on a certain level he knew this to be wrong by his experiences with Buffy, but deep down he still believed the lie. Buffy in freeing herself sets Giles free of the lie once and for all. His box is gone & he is free to be who he is, Buffy's support her father who would be there for her no matter what.

This ever happen to anyone? -- Finn Mac Cool, 23:20:00 07/29/03 Tue

I sat down tonight to watch a rerun of Buffy since, for practical reasons, I'm not able to tape the episodes. As such, reruns are the only way I get to see eps more than once. Imagine my surprise and dissapointment when the screen suddenly becomes blue. According to the writing on the screen, one of the local stations had requested UPN's programming for that particular piece of time be blacked out, and it said there was an FCC regulation enforcing the request. Has anyone else ever had this happen? Why do local stations have this right to cut out programs, and why would they exercise it? Please, I don't like the thought that there are local stations out there plotting to disrupt my TV watching, so, if anyone knows, don't hesitate to tell me.

[> Re: This ever happen to anyone? -- Elenphant, 23:49:31 07/29/03 Tue

It's happened to me lots of times (I live in Western Massachusetts). Fortunately, whenever it happened for Buffy on one channel, it was shown on the other channel that carries it. But during Two To Go last year, the blue came on with the writing for the first 15 minutes of the show and the other channel didn't carry it. I breathed a HUGE sigh of relief when Buffy finally came on, from the start of the ep and it wasn't 'in progress.' That FCC message seems to me to be extremely arbitrary, since it also came on during shows that clearly didn't have anything objectionable about them.


[> Re: This ever happen to anyone? -- Darby, 06:01:15 07/30/03 Wed

This also is something that can happen if a local station picks up a syndicated show - it can have the cable version "blacked out." What this all has to do with the FCC, I couldn't tell you - I guess the local broadcaster is granted some sort of precedence.

This used to be a very common practice, but is getting more and more rare these days. There used to be much more separation in the ownerships of the broadcasters, too - that probably affected it a lot.

[> Re: This ever happen to anyone? -- Ann, 09:35:18 07/30/03 Wed

Yes. Here in NE there is no UPN channel on cable so FOX "graciously" allows some of the UPN programs to be shown on one of its Fox channels - late at night on the weekend. The broadcast is blurry. It is often not shown therefore my Buffy viewing is sporadic. I prefer the reruns on FX.

Thanks /gushing for ATPOBtVS -- Ann, 12:59:22 07/30/03 Wed

Why I love this board? I have been thinking about this post for several days. There has been much angst happening lately so in the spirit of gratitude for this board (Thank you completely Masq) I wanted to post why and when I started frequenting this board, but I held off watching the reconciliation happen. I am mostly a lurker but I went through the old archived messages just moments ago and that is when I decided to post this. I found in the Jan 01 archive, a post from Onh about the post that made her frequent this board. This post was The Law of Cause and Effect by Ryuei. I don't recognize these poster's names from recent posts and hope that they have just changed names.

I am sure we all read one specific post that made us bookmark atpobtvs and keep coming back. Mine was when Darby asked everyone about himself or herself and people posted the most amazing life stories. I just checked the archives and it was only last February. I had thought it was much longer ago than that because of the amazing posts I have experienced since then. I don't want to call them stories because they are your real ongoing lives but it touched and moved me that people would lay out their lives so fully.

BtS has captured the imaginations and emotions and intellects of a group of dedicated posters (and lurkers). This board brings to my life a place where topics are debated, thought through and laughed at. Buffy is the conduit. The world we live in does not value this kind of discussion. Reality TV, as a more popular form of entertainment recently, just gives in to the lowest denominator our society can muster. And yet there is a war going on to "protect our way of life" but that is another thread on another board. But through this board's discussion, BtS gives us something that is valuable. Her gift was not death but this opportunity to discuss all of this life and death stuff and in turn is Joss's gift to us. I work in an academic setting but I don't find any kind of challenging discussion there. I do here. When I talk about this board to almost anybody, they think that BtS could not engender that kind of expression and they think it is silly (yeah we've heard it before about Buffy) and why would I waste my time reading such things. I guess in light of the angst lately I thought I would let everyone know why one lurker keeps coming back. Thanks to you all.

[> Great, Ann -- Random, 13:46:02 07/30/03 Wed

OnM is still here and posting his endless reviews. I haven't seen Ryuei in months, but I like to think our favorite Buddhist monk/priest/whatever he is still lurks around. Echoing your sentiments here and glad to have you aboard (I do remember you posting last week sometime.)

[> Hope you'll keep posting, Ann! -- ponygirl, 19:05:56 07/30/03 Wed

[> Re: Thanks /gushing for ATPOBtVS -- Rahael, 02:02:02 07/31/03 Thu

Thanks so much for saying this Ann - you'll never realise how helpful it was for me and a reminder to me why I still post and read here.

[> Re: Thanks /gushing for ATPOBtVS -- aliera, 03:48:20 07/31/03 Thu

Thanks back at you Ann... I just finished re-reading July 2001 myself last night. It's a good thing to do in the summer when there's no new eps to talk about.

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