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Why no spam? My views on 'I Robot, You Jane'. -- Liam, 09:27:45 07/29/03 Tue

While it isn't among my most favourite season 1 epiosdes, I still find it well worth watching for the following reasons:

1. Jenny. This was when ME knew how to introduce the significant others of Scoobies, people who were interesting characters in their own right, with their own interests and skills, before people like Anya, Tara, and Kennedy came along. Her interaction with Giles was great.

2. Giles. I loved his defence of his philosophy on reading and knowledge.

3. Willow. This was when she was my favourite female character on the show, and I sympathised with her joy at finding someone online she felt she liked, feared for her when she realised that she was being stalked and was with her when she finally attacked her stalker. Go Willow!

4. Buffy and Xander, in terms of their care and concern for Willow and what they felt she had got herself into.

5. The good way the subject of internet stalking was introduced and dealt with, the basic premise still standing up very well.

6. Fritz was suitably creepy.

What I disliked:

1. The obvious fact that Willow didn't scan the whole of the pages into the computer, so how could Moloch be released in the first place? And why were his first comments in English?

2. Moloch was cheesy as a villain, and I wasn't clear what he wanted with Willow (with the guys he at least wanted them to do certain things), unless the robot body was 'fully functional'. Yuck and double yuck. :(

3. As was pointed out by someone else, why didn't Moloch get a headache from all the spam online? :)

4. The declaration at the end that Buffy, Xander, and Willow would never have a normal relationship. At the time I laughed, but as we all know, the declaration became prophetic; and I now no longer laugh at it.

What do other people think?

[> Re: Why no spam? My views on 'I Robot, You Jane'. -- anom, 11:42:04 07/29/03 Tue

"Giles. I loved his defence of his philosophy on reading and knowledge."

Except I'd have liked to see him respond to this better: "Ms. Calendar: Oh, you are a big snob. You, you think that knowledge should be kept in these carefully guarded repositories where only a handful of white guys can get at it." Isn't that more true of the "digital divide"? Access to books is a lot more equal than access to computers & the knowledge to use them.

"What I disliked:
1. The obvious fact that Willow didn't scan the whole of the pages into the computer, so how could Moloch be released in the first place? And why were his first comments in English?"

Did she not scan it all in, or did we just not see her scan the rest? I'd chalk this up to the standard TV shortcuts. What I have more trouble believing is that Willow would scan the book without ever looking at it & seeing that the text was disappearing.

As for the fact Moloch's 1st words after being scanned are in English, of course, the main reason is so viewers will understand them, but within the world of the show, he could have adapted so quickly to his new medium because of its nature & his own, or the computer could have had an automatic translation program. (The books Giles & the students were scanning in were probably in a wide variety of languages, so it would make sense for the library computer to have one installed.) While the abilities of such programs are severely limited, translating "Where am I?" from Italian should be well within their capabilities. By the time we see/hear Malcolm again, he could've learned English from his Internet environment.

[> [> Choice lines from the ep.. -- ZachsMind, 12:49:41 07/29/03 Tue

MARY SUE: Buffy! Funny you meeting me here in the ladies' shower room! I-- (screams. dies of electrocution.)

BUFFY: Besides, I can just tell something's wrong. My spider sense is tingling.
GILES: Your... spider sense?
BUFFY: Pop culture reference. Sorry.

XANDER: ...you're gonna be missin' out. I'm plannin' to be witty. I'm gonna make fun of all the people who won't talk to me.

WILLOW: I met him online.
BUFFY: On line for what?

GILES: Things involved with a computer fill me with a childlike terror. Now, if it were a nice ogre or some such I'd be more in my element.

BUFFY: I mean, what if you guys get really, really intense, and then you find out that he has a hairy back?
WILLOW: Well, no! Uh, he doesn't talk like somebody who would have a hairy back.

GILES: (to WILLOW) Uh, when I've examined it, you can, uh, uh, skim it.
JENNY: Scan it, Rupert. That's scan it.
GILES: Of course.
JENNY: Oh, I know, our ways are strange to you, but soon you will join us in the 20th century. With three whole years to spare!
GILES: Ms. Calendar, I'm sure your computer science class is fascinating, but I happen to believe that one can survive in modern society without being a slave to the, um, idiot box.
JENNY: That's TV. The idiot box is TV. This (indicates a computer) is the *good* box!
GILES: I still prefer a good book.

XANDER: I mean, sure he says he's a high school student, but I can say I'm a high school student.
BUFFY: You are.
XANDER: Okay, but I can also say that I'm an elderly Dutch woman. Get me? I mean, who's to say I'm not if I'm in the elderly Dutch chat room?

JENNY: ...You know, for the last two years more e-mail was sent than regular mail.
JENNY: More digitized information went across phone lines than conversation.
GILES: That is a fact that I regard with genuine horror.
JENNY: (teasingly) I'll bet it is...

XANDER: What, I can't have information sometimes?
GILES: Well, it-it's just somewhat unprecedented.

GILES: I'm, I'm just gonna stay and clean up a little. I'll, uh, I'll be back in the middle ages.
JENNY: Did you ever leave?

XANDER: To read makes our speaking English good.

GILES: Well, it's been so nice talking to you.
JENNY: We were fighting!
GILES: (absently) Must do it again sometime, yes. Bye, now.

[> [> [> Call me paranoid, but... -- Sheri, 13:08:49 07/29/03 Tue

...I've always taken IRYJ as ME's not so subtle way of saying that people who spend a lot of time on computers/internet are somewhat less than sane (either by putting themselves in dangerous situations with obsessive geeks or by being obsessive geeks themselves). So it's a shame that I come away from the episode with the message that one meets with only danger from the digital world--being that in addition to meeting all of you guys, I met my husband online--because it makes it difficult for me to enjoy the points that I do like.

For instance, I have to agree with *both* Jenny and Giles in regards to books vs. the internet. Books have a comfort to them that I just don't get from reading online (smell and tactile feedback. And the internet's great cause the library doesn't always have a printed copy of what I'm looking for, but if someone from across the world was so kind as to put it online, I can still get that information. (Yup, I state the obvious a bit, don't I?)

[> [> [> LOL. Made me like the ep more than I did before -- sdev, 18:40:47 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Why no spam? My views on 'I Robot, You Jane'. -- Rendyl, 13:14:33 07/29/03 Tue

***Except I'd have liked to see him respond to this better: "Ms. Calendar: Oh, you are a big snob. You, you think that knowledge should be kept in these carefully guarded repositories where only a handful of white guys can get at it." Isn't that more true of the "digital divide"? Access to books is a lot more equal than access to computers & the knowledge to use them.***

Er...you lost me. At one point in the very far distant past guys probably had a leg up in the computer world (so to speak) but schools and public libraries now offer computer/internet access to anyone. You don't have to be a white guy to walk into a public library. (or to use a computer)

Ren -girlie and occasionally geekie

[> [> [> That's far too optimistic -- KdS, 14:41:39 07/29/03 Tue

Public access internet is a very poor second to home access. You have to preplan all your visits, so you don't learn about the internet the way you do by mucking around at home. You're restricted to whatever connection/software/hardware happens to be available at your venue, there is often a big wait for machines, and most significantly there is little opportunity to publish your own material on line, which is whence real empowerment comes.

[> [> [> [> Re: That's far too optimistic -- Rendyl, 15:28:34 07/29/03 Tue

All true although I was referring to actually having access and knowing how to use a computer rather than to having one at home. If the library is your only source of books and research material you have many of the same problems. You can only work with materials that are not checked out and you have to plan your work around the hours it is opened.

(of course taking a book home is a different thing - but they were specifically doing research, rather than reading for pleasure)

On another note, my confusion comes from the 'white guys' statement. Why is it assumed only guys (and white ones at that) can use a computer? Or fix a computer? Or code for a computer...etc?

Ren -

[> [> [> [> [> Yes, it does apply to books as well -- KdS, 15:49:25 07/29/03 Tue

Something of a knee-jerk response. I wrote a paper denouncing public-acess based digital divide policies for my degree this term, so I sort of went into a laid-down groove.

And regarding women and computers - my current course is information science rather than information tech, and we have about a 2:1 female:male ratio.

[> [> [> [> [> [> At the risk of baiting more flames... -- Eric, 19:18:38 07/29/03 Tue

The imagined quote "Ms. Calendar: Oh, you are a big snob. You, you think that knowledge should be kept in these carefully guarded repositories where only a handful of white guys can get at it." is itself kind of snobbish. It typecasts computer users as all being white males with the agendas people who use the term associate with it. It also, in a kind of back handed, way supposes that other races and sexes are barred from computers because they lack the (insert quality here) to get them. Yes, economic status does limit people's access. But computers are getting cheaper every year. Second rate systems can be bought for less than a couple hundred bucks. Good systems can be assembled from component parts available by catalogue. Public access clumsily bars people from many web sites and are useless for making your own web page. But a bum off the street can get a Yahoo email account and tell everyone in the world whatever he or she wants. And you can jump onto forums like this. I'm currently using a public access type computer right now.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But where I live -- mamcu, 15:52:27 07/30/03 Wed

computer access is still related to income. I'm a white woman, but happily reading and typing away on my cable high-speed access with my recently-acquired and new computer. All this works with little knowledge but some $$ from me. A couple of weeks ago I vanished from the board just because I was stuck in the middle of a big city with only dial-up access, and really couldn't read the posts, let alone send any. AND I had a good, new laptop. Anybody on this board from a public library, please speak up?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But where I live -- Eric, 23:27:22 07/30/03 Wed

No, access is not perfect. That's not the issue. The issue is its POSSIBLE and getting better. Merely being a woman (and in some circles considered a permanent victim) does not prevent you from accessing the net. As for circumstances like being in a strange place, well that happens to everybody. Ask a traveling businessman (or woman) and they can give you the same sob story.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No Flames -- mamcu, 08:36:01 07/31/03 Thu

Yeah, but what I'm saying is not that I had a hard time, but that the worse the technology, the harder it is to participate. So online communities are much more likely to have participants who have a history of good, easy access. I mean, you're not going to sit there ten minutes to read each post--so a person who has that kind of access doesn't really have access. And a business person who had to run his business that way, not just use it in emergencies, wouldn't stay in business.

A parallel: If you have a job across town, you can take it if you have good public transportation OR a car that runs. But if the bus takes three hours and your car tends to break down every other trip, you can't really take the job.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> no flame, just a comment -- anom, 01:01:20 07/31/03 Thu

"It typecasts computer users as all being white males with the agendas people who use the term associate with it. It also, in a kind of back handed, way supposes that other races and sexes are barred from computers because they lack the (insert quality here) to get them. Yes, economic status does limit people's access."

Not all, just predominantly. The digital divide is mostly class-based, but that tends to coincide to some extent w/race, less so w/sex. As for the latter, there was an article a few years ago in a special issue on women in computing of Communications of the Association for Computing Machinery that discussed the factors that make women less likely to go into the field. I hope the situation has changed since then, but I doubt the problem has been solved entirely. (This part has more to do w/what Rendyl said, I guess.)

[> [> Why not 'Where am I ?' in Italian? -- Liam, 00:36:56 07/30/03 Wed

I'd thought along the same lines as you, anom, that Moloch's first comment 'Where am I?' should have been in Italian, then the rest in English, as he was certainly a fast learner. After all, the first dialogue we heard was in Italian with subtitles, so this could have been used there as well.

[> [> [> then again, why *should* it have been in italian? -- anom, 10:05:46 07/30/03 Wed

After all, when we 1st saw Moloch in the teaser, Italian was probably only the latest of numerous languages he'd used over his long demonic career. English might well have been 1 of them, & he might have recognized it in his new environment--say, in most of the documents on the computer. On the other hand, the scene is identified as taking place in 1418. I don't know if "Where am I?" was said differently in Middle English, & I don't have time to look it up now--does anyone else know?

[> [> [> [> My opinion -- Liam, 00:45:31 07/31/03 Thu

I feel that his first words should have been in Italian, on the grounds that it was the last language before he got sucked into the book. On the other hand, I would have also been happy with 'Where am I?' in a demonic language, presumably the language of the words seen in the book.

I've read some 15th century English, anom, though am certainly not an expert. There is a difference between that type of English and late 20th century American English, not just in terms of words and spelling, but also in terms of pronunciation; and I would have expected Moloch to have spent a little time (by his standards) getting up to speed.

[> [> [> [> [> agree, to some extent -- anom, 09:07:42 07/31/03 Thu

"I feel that his first words should have been in Italian, on the grounds that it was the last language before he got sucked into the book. On the other hand, I would have also been happy with 'Where am I?' in a demonic language, presumably the language of the words seen in the book."

Certainly Italian would've made sense. But I doubt even Giles' computer had the font we saw in that book!

"I've read some 15th century English, anom, though am certainly not an expert. There is a difference between that type of English and late 20th century American English, not just in terms of words and spelling, but also in terms of pronunciation; and I would have expected Moloch to have spent a little time (by his standards) getting up to speed."

It's been a long time since I read Chaucer, but yes, it's certainly different from Modern English. That's why I said what I did about not knowing how different "Where am I?" might be in Middle English. (If the opening had been set in Shakespeare's time rather than Chaucer's, I wouldn't have had to say that!)

Pronunciation wouldn't be relevant to those 1st words on the screen. Moloch wasn't speaking aloud through the computer till later--and enough time had passed by then to make it plausible that he'd learned modern pronunciation. But if the words themselves were essentially the same in Middle English (& I think I'm gonna have to look that up & make sure after all...if I can find the time), then any mere spelling differences might have been "corrected" by spellcheck!

[> [> Re: Why no spam? My views on 'I Robot, You Jane'. -- Caira, 06:28:24 07/31/03 Thu

Except I'd have liked to see him respond to this better: "Ms. Calendar: Oh, you are a big snob. You, you think that knowledge should be kept in these carefully guarded repositories where only a handful of white guys can get at it." Isn't that more true of the "digital divide"? Access to books is a lot more equal than access to computers & the knowledge to use them.

IMAO: Remember this ep was written six years ago, back when the 'net seemed new and exciting and miraculous and unpredictable (and capable of swallowing millions of dollars' worth of venture capital with some serious hope of repaying it all ;o). The key word is unpredictable; I remember people speculating seriusly (though not credibly, with hindsight) that it would by some miracle greatly improve access to knowledge and therefore prosperity in the Third World, for example. The fact it hasn't turned out like that would not necessarily have occurred to the writers at the time, and I don't think we can really hold it against them. If it had been written a few years later, sure...

[> [> [> i dunno about that -- anom, 09:34:10 07/31/03 Thu

6 years ago the digital divide was even greater, & I'm pretty sure it was already a subject of public discussion. In fact, that was closer to the time of the article in the "Women in Computing" issue I mentioned in my "no flame, just a comment" post above.

[> Language and witches -- mamcu, 16:09:39 07/30/03 Wed

While I concur that this is not the greatest episode ever but that it has some great lines, I'd also like to point out that it, like many of the S1 eps, features a theme we see throughout. In this case, it's the power of language. (and if you doubt it, look at the board and chat of the last few days--but I prefer not to).

The scene where Moloch is sucked into the book is later echoed in S6--Two to Go?--when Willow sucks the power out of the book. And this, like those late S6 eps, is a Willow-centric story.

I think it got cheesy when they shifted away from the focus on language, downloading Moloch into the Transformer suit. If they'd stayed with the idea of the ghost in the machine, they could have headed out into Gibson/Stephenson land, and made cyberspace a weird component of Sunnydale. They ducked that completely.

But linguistically, it did recall the whole idea that language isn't a symbol, but an act--it doesn't just stand for ideas, it makes things happen. And that's where the witchcraft we see in all the later Willow episodes focus, on the power of certain words to impact the real world. That ended in the series when Willow sucked the words out of the books, but it was powerful before then.

[> [> Re: Language and witches -- sdev, 18:54:14 07/30/03 Wed

In non-corporeal form he bore a striking resemblance to The First.

Jenny vs Ethan -- JBone, 20:13:18 07/29/03 Tue

I've really got to learn to just do the damage and get out of town. It's the stay and gloat that gets me every time.


yesterday's results

Post comments here.

[> The most "ethical" character on "Buffy"! -- Scroll, 20:47:34 07/29/03 Tue

When it comes to magick, Ethan has the skills! Ethan doesn't get his neck snapped by his ex-boyfriend's Slayer's ex-boyfriend. Oh no, he's the one turning the Slayer into a helpless damsel in distress and having a gay old time. (Pun definitely intended!) He and Giles have "history", which Jenny couldn't even manage since she went and got all dead. Every time Ethan comes to town, he brings out the Ripper in tweedy, stuffy Giles -- and I think we can all agree that Ripper coming out to play is a good thing for the world in general. Or, if not a "good thing", then at least a fun thing!

Well, there is that little issue of Ethan being arrested by the Initiative and taken to a high-security detention facility in the Nevada desert for "rehabilitation". But, come on! Who here thinks an organisation as orderly as the Initiative could hold a Chaos mage like Ethan if he didn't want to be held? I'll bet he freed himself with the judicious (well, okay, maybe not "judicious") application of a spell before they even got out of Sunnydale.

Other than Tara, Ethan is the most consistently "ethical" character on Buffy. He has a moral code and lives by it. He believes in Chaos whole-heartedly, worships his gods faithfully, and practices the tenets of his religion with gratitude and joy! Besides, Ethan has snark down to a fine art. Only he can make religion sound fun!

As much as I admired Jenny's hip, modern woman style, all her technopagan knowledge and computer skills could never compare to Ethan's status as Janus' beloved son, his powers as a dedicated Chaos mage, and his wild, fey, BDSM-loving, sexually suggestive ways.

[> [> . . . and I must reluctantly agree. Sorry, MOLOJ! -- HonorH, 21:08:14 07/29/03 Tue

Fact is, Ethan survived a lot longer than Jenny while doing much more dangerous stuff. Much as I love Our Miss Calendar, I'm afraid that if it came down to Ethan vs. Jenny, Ethan would win--every time.

[> [> [> You're demoted to club janitor, Honor H. -- Rochefort, 22:48:11 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Well, fine! Just--fine! Fine, fine, fine! -- HonorH, 23:34:50 07/29/03 Tue


[> [> [> [> [> Don't take it so hard. We found you the cuuuuuuuuutest little Janitor outfit. -- Rochefort, 23:43:51 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> Are you sexually harrassing me? I think you're sexually harrassing me! -- HonorH, 00:09:41 07/30/03 Wed

He's sexually harrassing me! Come see the sexual harrassment inherent in the system!

Whaddya mean, you're not? Why not? If I were you, I'd definitely sexually harrass me. Heck, sometimes, I sexually harrass myself!

HH, you so need to get some sleep.

Now *you're* sexually harrassing me . . .

'Course I am. Go to bed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Out of fear of law-suit, you're re-instated to your old position as Cobra Commander. -- Rochefort, 09:37:36 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: . . . and I must reluctantly agree. Sorry, MOLOJ! -- jane, 20:03:34 07/30/03 Wed

Slightly OT, but could someone tell me what the heck MOLOJ stands for? Can't figure it out for myself.

[> [> [> [> We're the group responsible for... -- Rochefort, 21:24:13 07/30/03 Wed

Amongst other things, the daring rescue of the Scoobies from Joss Whedon's basement. You may have heard of it. It was pretty much a success until CJL let them all go wandering free in the desert for some reason. We're a subversive anarchist group with cool outfits designed by Honor H and a van and walkie talkies and underground hideouts in many places like Paris. If you'd like to join, you just need to show you can contribute and that you have the MOLOJ spirit.

It stands for Marginalized Othered Lovers of Jenny.

[> [> [> [> [> Not this again.... -- cjl, 07:40:22 07/31/03 Thu

Rochefort, I thought we'd settled this in the van.

Jane, we let them go wandering out into the "Restless" landscape as an acknowledgment of the passing of BtVS from reality to myth, and as a ritualistic gesture symbolizing the transition of the characters from our TV screens to our collective subconscious. It was a sad, but ultimately liberating experience.

Besides, there's no way we could have taken care of the Scoobs on our organizational budget. Do you have any idea how much Xander eats these days?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Xander's eating is part of a complicated eye-regenerating spell -- ponygirl, 08:13:50 07/31/03 Thu

... and there'd be more money in the budget if some people would kick in their share of the gas money when scheduling trips to the collective mytho-poetic landscape of our unconscious.

Of course HonorH's insistence on Prada shoulder bags for the team didn't help either.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, and can someone take the team credit card away from her? -- Rochefort, 09:34:34 07/31/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not this again.... -- Rochefort, 09:23:41 07/31/03 Thu

That's the same line my dad used when my dog ran away.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: We're the group responsible for... -- jane, 12:29:44 07/31/03 Thu

Thanks for the info,Rochefort. I read all about your daring exploits awhile back; I'm so envious of your cool anarchistic outfits! Would a semi-reformed hippy chick fit in? I could bring my trusty horse!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh my god! We've been looking for a semi-reformed hippy chick with a horse for MONTHS! You're in!! -- Rochefort, 13:59:05 07/31/03 Thu

Here's your outfit. But be careful. The First Evil is out to stop MOLOJ.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yay!! and BTW, my horse kicks ass. Take that, FE! -- jane, 18:56:09 08/01/03 Fri

[> Re: Jenny vs Ethan -- cjl, 20:57:19 07/29/03 Tue

Captain Chaos versus the Gypsy Queen: Ethan (clever devil) would try to use Jenny's abiding affection for Giles as a way of screwing them both over, but our sweet Janna has a fully operational bulls**t detector, and wouldn't fall for Ethan's brand of double talk for a second. It would come down to a fair fight between wizards, and as we all know, Ethan has never participated in--let alone won--a fair fight. Jenny, baby.

[> [> cjl, you're promoted to El Presidente -- Rochefort, 22:51:12 07/29/03 Tue

[> Re: Jenny vs Ethan -- Alison, 21:04:01 07/29/03 Tue

I think we all remember what happened the last time these two were pitted against each other (possession? what possession?). Ethan tried his hand at the tatoo business, then ran away.

[> [> Good point! My way is now clear to vote for Jenny. -- ponygirl, 07:27:42 07/30/03 Wed

[> Oh, no... -- ApOpHiS, 21:15:25 07/29/03 Tue

Things are getting tough. I like both these guys. After much soul-searching, however, I'm gonna have to go with Ethan. He's simply got more tricks up his sleeve; he's deviously clever and is always watching the angles, looking for an opportunity. Jenny could pull a few rituals, but I think Ethan is A) more powerful and 2) can improvise on his feet instead of being bound to arcane rules (Chaos and all...). Age and treachery beats youth and a tight dancer's body. Besides, if Jenny wins, I'll still be okay (changing sides in the middle of a fight; Ethan would be proud).

[> You all make good points about Ethan but.... -- Rochefort, 22:59:47 07/29/03 Tue

You're forgetting that messing with Jenny means messing with Giles. Ethan is hard pressed to beat Jenny alone. But against the love that lives between Jenny AND Giles Ethan could only use Arthur's battle cry "Not in the face! Not in the face!"

[> [> My money's on Jenny to win -- sdev, 23:06:27 07/29/03 Tue

And may I add-- if Giles is come can Buffy be far behind?

[> Come on MOLOJ, get out the grass roots vote!!! Go Jenny! -- Rochefort, 23:00:48 07/29/03 Tue

[> [> This member of MOLOJ, and one of this week's official tie-breakers... -- dub ;o), 19:11:28 07/30/03 Wed

votes Jenny, of course.


[> [> [> Friends in high places. Knew we could count on you. : ) -- Rochefort, 21:20:26 07/30/03 Wed

[> I love Ethan, but Jenny is my avatar -- Masq, 04:41:48 07/30/03 Wed

Or is that the First Evil in Jenny-clothes?

[> Re: Jenny vs Ethan -- btvsk8, 07:27:44 07/30/03 Wed

Its gonna be close this one but Ethan is going to clinch it. How can he not? Ethan IS Giles, had he not given up his Ripper ways, and that alone means he deserves to win.

[> Ever since... -- Random, 08:29:33 07/30/03 Wed

I was turned down for the post of Grand Panjundrumous Inquisitioner of MOLOJ, I've been a bitter man. So my vote is for Ethan, who's wickedness is of the coolest sort. Ethan would have hexed Jenny's clothes so she turned into a techno-pagan/hippie...which she already was. Oh well. Guess she'll just have to lose the old-fashioned way: being turned into an angry, insecure teenager and falling hopelessly in love with a defiant bad-boy rebel Ethan. Whatdoyamean, he didn't eat the chocolate? That's what he's really like now? Huh. Bet he was prissy as a teen, then.

[> [> "Grand Panjundrumous Inquisitioner"? -- cjl, 08:55:23 07/30/03 Wed


How many times have I told you--don't tease potential initiates with ponderous, anachronistic titles! You never follow through, they get cheesed off, and it always winds up biting us in the ass! I know you want to have your fun, but...

For the record, Random--MOLOJ is an anarchist collective. We rotate the chairmanship every three months. Major MOLOJ activities/initiatives must be approved by a three-quarters majority of the entire membership. We have no headquarters, except in cyberspace. We collect no dues. There's none of the usual political infrastructural nonsense to distract us from our mission. (When we can agree on what that mission is.) And finally...

There is no such thing as a Grand Panjundrumous Inquisitioner!

(Unless, of course, Rochefort has created a secret Inner Circle, and I'm out of the loop. Hmmm....)

[> [> [> Don't worry. No loops. It's in the MOLOJ code. MOLOJ is loopless. -- Rochefort, 09:44:19 07/30/03 Wed

Random just asked if it would be good for the cause if he acquisitioned some Grand Punjabs. I was like "Uh... yeah probably."

[> [> [> "anarchist"? yeah, *right*! -- anom, 17:31:09 07/31/03 Thu

Then where does Rochefort get off unilaterally demoting, promoting, & deciding who's "in"? For that matter, do you really expect us to believe that there's no inner circle--& that you're not part of it? Did you think no one would notice that during the Scooby Rescue your little core group all got to ride in the lead van w/the main characters? I'm not complaining for myself--I'm not even a member, I was just there on a freelance basis, so I didn't expect any more--but most of the members in the other vans barely saw the Scoobs except as they were about to disappear into the desert. I mean, not even Rob got to be in the 1st van--how could you?

And as for those complaints about the budget, I doubt you got a 3/4 vote to approve shelling out for 4 vans for the great rescue. You had a man on the inside, so what was all that about not knowing how many of them we might have to get out of there? And what's it costing to maintain underground hideouts (how many, Rochefort?) in f**king Paris & other places, & to get custom-designed outfits made?

One more thing: speaking of my freelance status & your budget--where's my check already?

[> [> [> [> In defense of MOLOJ -- Rochefort, 22:38:50 07/31/03 Thu

CJL decided we were anarchists, and I'm really o.k. with that. I'd have taken the group in a more traditionally left wing direction. But it just shows you how much I am only one PART of the leadership. The inner circle in the van were the one's actually writing the story, I believe, so it was a little writer's bonus. MOLOJ likes writers. Also, I didn't know you weren't in. You don't WANT to be in? Also, the rescue and the vans were funded by Daphne Blake, who is a friend of a cousin of mine and believed in the cause. The outfits are all Honor H. You can ask her about that. And as to your pay check, I can look into it, but who hired you and what promises were made? Mostly people working in MOLOJ believe in our mission and do it for that reason. We all have day jobs.


[> [> [> [> [> Blind shock and awe -- KdS, 03:49:59 08/01/03 Fri

I didn't know who "Daphne Blake" was, and googled. I suggest that you not do so if you are of a nervous disposition.

*EIGHT OUT OF TEN RESULTS* on the first page are Hanna-Barbera BDSM porn? I think that things can't get weirder, and I'm always wrong.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Usually she just solves ghost mysteries with Scooby. I wasn't aware she was doing porn. -- Rochefort, 14:19:57 08/01/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> so the decisions *are* being made unilaterally! -- anom, 17:18:31 08/01/03 Fri

And there are a "leadership" & an "inner circle"! I don't call that anarchist.

No, I'm not in. Not that I didn't like Jenny, but I'm just not that invested in the character. Plus, as an editor, I just can't stand to see "other" verbed. I was on board for the specific Rescue mission but not the organization's overall one; even then, as you may realize from reading my posts, I just didn't have serious issues w/season 7 like the rest of you did. But I was sympathetic enough to the cause to offer a cut rate. As for the outfits, I'm sure HH designed them at no charge, but getting them made must've been a different story, especially w/those expensive fabrics she likes.

Tell you what--I'll fax you a copy of my contract & see if this can be straightened out.

[> [> [> [> [> [> In further defense of MOLOJ... and with hoped for reconciliation -- Rochefort, 21:15:16 08/01/03 Fri

Obviously you're CHOOSING not to be in the MOLOJ inner circle, by your own statement. There may be an inner circle, but it's always been an inner circle of choice. Everyone who wanted to kick into the story, did. That I'm aware of. Also, there is nothing in the MOLOJ mission statement about hating season 7. I quite liked it. I didn't like season 6. Also, I don't think Honor H MADE the outfits, I think she just went shopping at Neiman Marcus, and as I said, we're trying to address Honor H's spending problems. Also, MOLOJ has moved far beyond just avenging Jenny, although we still do that when we can. Finally, verbing "other" is entirely appropriate in most academic circles and used quite frequently. And even it weren't, verbing things is consistent with Buffy-speak, and so appropriate for MOLOJ. But as I said, Ms. Anom, I will do my utmost to achieve an agreement satisfactory to all parties regarding your contract. Do send your contract as soon as possible and hopefully all parties can leave happy with our brief partnership and willing to avoid attempts to blow one another up in the future.


The Comte de Rochefort, one of the people of the people's underground organization of marginalized othered lovers of jenny.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> i think there's been a misunderstanding--i quote, copiously -- anom, 12:53:59 08/03/03 Sun

I'm starting to see how we've interpreted the same words in different ways, & how many ways they can be interpreted. The main point of confusion seems to be when we're talking about MOLOJ as a whole & when we mean the specific Rescue mission. Maybe we both need to express ourselves more clearly & read more carefully. Hey, I'll try if you will!

"Obviously you're CHOOSING not to be in the MOLOJ inner circle, by your own statement. There may be an inner circle, but it's always been an inner circle of choice."

Not only am I not in the inner circle (which I didn't know existed, so how could I choose either way?), I'm not in MOLOJ at all. When you said, "You don't WANT to be in?" I thought you were talking about the group as a whole. That was what I meant when I said, "I'm not even a member," & that's why I put my reason for not joining in terms of Jenny. Guess I just don't have that MOLOJ spirit.... See what I mean about interpretations?

My point about the inner circle was, why does an anarchist organization even have one? And if it's an "inner circle of choice," why did cjl say, "(Unless, of course, Rochefort has created a secret Inner Circle, and I'm out of the loop. Hmmm....)"

Interpretations...I'm starting to see how there could be a veritable Venn diagram of overlapping inner circles...an open one "of choice," one just for the Rescue mission, & possibly a secret one, loops or no loops.

"Also, there is nothing in the MOLOJ mission statement about hating season 7."

That's not what I said. I said I "didn't have serious issues w"/S7. That was what seemed to be the motivation for the Rescue mission; I didn't mean it was MOLOJ's raison d'Ítre (obviously, since the group's existence predates that season!). But apparently the different writers had different motivations, & I didn't realize how different. In any case, the point was that I didn't have the level of issues w/the show that motivated the instigators of that mission.

"Also, I don't think Honor H MADE the outfits, I think she just went shopping at Neiman Marcus...."

I quote. I quote you: "We're a subversive anarchist group with cool outfits designed by Honor H...." And I quote me, who didn't say she made them, which wouldn't have cost so much--I said, "As for the outfits, I'm sure HH designed them at no charge, but getting them made must've been a different story, especially w/those expensive fabrics she likes," & I asked what it cost to get "custom-designed outfits made."

Speaking of that pesky budget, I notice you didn't answer my questions about what it costs to maintain underground hideouts, & how many of them MOLOJ does maintain. You may have gotten outside funding for that 1 mission, but hideouts are an ongoing cost.

"Finally, verbing 'other' is entirely appropriate in most academic circles and used quite frequently. And even it weren't, verbing things is consistent with Buffy-speak, and so appropriate for MOLOJ."

Eeeeesh. Guess I don't want to be in academic any more than in inner circles. And not all verbing is equal--do you really think the main characters would use "othered"? I have trouble hearing it in any of their voices. Just doesn't sound like Buffy-speak to me. I don't think even Willow talking about the Chumash Indians used anything like it, even if she was channeling her mother, who might well have. (I may be more sensitive than usual on this issue right now--I heard someone say "averagization" a couple of days ago!)

"Ms. Anom"

Huh? First time I'm ever seen that, & the last, I hope! Just because which sex I belong to has become generally known, that doesn't mean I want to be addressed...that way you just did. "anom" isn't even my last name, OK, M'sieu le Comte? No title, no capital A. I figured after Vancouver, the number of people who knew had reached critical mass, but I'm starting to think I should have sworn every poster I met to secrecy, like Sol. I mean, please!

"...and willing to avoid attempts to blow one another up in the future."

Hey, I'd never do that! Unless I was hired to...nah, not even then. Wait a minute...interpretations again...is that a threat?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> or possibly a total failure to communicate...roche, you get my fax yet? RO-o-oche! -- anom, 00:00:11 08/04/03 Mon

[> [> You were totally SUPPOSED to be Grand Punjab Acquisitioner... -- Rochefort, 09:40:52 07/30/03 Wed

I must have misfiled the paper work. Anyway, now you blew it.

[> [> [> Damn! But... -- Random, 10:04:10 07/30/03 Wed

I just hacked into Jay's site and changed my vote! Am I redeemed?

[> [> [> [> Way to be subversive!!! (for a good cause) -- Rochefort, 11:30:40 07/30/03 Wed

CJL is right, we're anarchists, so the titles are really only code names for when we use our walkie-talkies, but you can acquisition all the Punjabs you want. :)


[> Chaos my arse -- KdS, 08:54:45 07/30/03 Wed

Jenny's cool. Ethan the sort of prick weho gives Chaos a bad name. I just hope he runs into Rosie von Bek some day:

"Sadly the self-styled Chaos Mage Rayne was just a sadistic little wanker with pretentions to Tricksterhood. I recall him with no affection whatsoever, although his scream as I dropped him head-first through the Biloxi Fault nearly made me relent."

[> What can I say? -- Anneth, 12:02:35 07/30/03 Wed

I voted for Ethan. Anyone who can pull of those clothes and still look wicked (as opposed to buffoonish) gets my vote. Plus, Jenny's clothes were dumb. Remember the white t-shirt with the big leaf-prints on it? A vote for Ethan is a vote against that shirt.

[> [> ethan pulled off his clothes? when was that? how'd i miss it? -- anom (what? you expected me to pass that up?), 16:41:35 07/31/03 Thu

[> [> [> hee -- Anneth, 16:59:08 07/31/03 Thu

Yeah, he pulled off those clothes like a real man should. wait... that's not quite what I meant. Um, Ethan pulled off those clothes, but 'twas Giles who really pulled them off like a man should. Okay, I've got it now. Ethan pulled off those clothes, but Giles pulled them off like a man after pulling off his own clothes like a demon. Yeah, that's it. Giles pulled off Ethan's clothes like a man after pulling off his own clothes like a demon.

[> [> [> [> lol, Anneth! you just turned my brain ito a pretzel! -- WickedBuffy, 15:26:31 08/02/03 Sat

[> Re: Jenny vs Ethan -- d'Herblay, 19:54:55 07/30/03 Wed

I was going to abstain from this contest: the board, of late, hasn't, despite JBone's marvellous efforts, inspired much playfulness within me; also, I have a tough time deciding between the participants in this contest. It is the one opposition in which I don't feel driven to take sides. I always lit up when I saw the name "Robin Sachs" in the credits, knowing that I was in for a delicious banquet of chaos, with much delightful scenery-chewing. But on the other hand, Robia La Morte has always gotten extra credit from me for her work with Prince, and when I imagine Robin Sachs in the skimpy red dress Robia wore in the "Gett Off" video, and when I imagine Prince hoisting its hem over Robin's shoulders, I know I have to vote for Jenny.

Sorry for the delay, J. It's not like it was close or anything.

Alright kids... sit up straight and say hello nicely. -- The Second Evil, 08:06:58 07/30/03 Wed

Consider this a re-introduction, because there are many names here I don't recognize. I'm Solitude1056, also known as Sol, but my formal title around here has been The Second Evil for at least two years now. Masq is the First Evil. I'm just a little bit behind, but I do my best.

I've been absent since April or so, because I was buried in trying to pass a grad-level statistics class and simply didn't have the time to marshal thoughts on much more than studying. Then I stopped reading, because I wanted the last few episodes to exist in my own head, rather than tainting any understanding through a filter of other people's first impressions. No offense, but that's the way I felt about it. Perhaps once I've seen some reruns I'll be more open to personal analysis.

It was brought to my attention that the trend I originally saw has continued, that is to say, the posts have stepped down a level to where few people use footnotes, let alone reference external heavy-duty texts. This is an injustice, and must be immediately rectified! Or something.

We used to have OnM doing his Movie of the Week, but I think I'll start a Lecture of the Week. If you have a topic you'd like to understand better that's philosophical, let me know and I'll put it on the list, and try to relate it to the Whedonverse. Expect footnotes, reading lists, and bibilography and a good dose of my wacky irreverence. I'm not the Second Evil just because I'm cute, y'know.

Speaking of which, I'll lay a few ground rules for those of you unfamiliar with my idiosyncracies.

I don't do chat. If you want to talk to me, do it on the board. If you want to interact with me as a person and not an essay, then you'll have to come to DC.

I ignore gender. In this environment, what matters are our words and not what's between our legs. Consider me a set of pixels, because that's what I'll be doing to everyone else. This translates to: don't bug me about who or what I am. It's none of your business.

Privacy is paramount. I'm aware that some folks like the idea of hacking through the system to find out who someone is. This is a violation of the highest degree. Those who have done it have crossed a line I won't tolerate. So if you're big on the idea of discussing personal information or gossip, count me out. Pixels, people, pixels. And pixels don't have home addresses, spouses, or personal information.

The story is my only priority. I like actors, but they're only the interpreters, and not the originators. I pay attention to the writers, and Joss, and what the story says within the greater scheme of our cultural existence. (Color me a postmodernist, I suppose.) The story is the most important thing, and always will be.

I believe education - in or out of school - is the highest goal one can seek. I understand that many people apply their own experience to comprehend a story, but I'm leery of extremes. By that, I mean I get bored with highly personal interpretations, just as much as I would with an interpretation that relies solely on a filter of someone else's viewpoint. Even when discussing a philosophical POV as a way to grok the Whedonverse, our own perceptions will filter in. This is how pixels gain color and contrast. Without that, it's black and white.

My delivery is abrupt much of the time, but don't think this means I'm angry, rude, or mean. You can read what you like into the way I write, but I do try to keep my sense of humor at the forefront to alleviate any harshness hiding in my deadpan delivery. So if you're reeling at this point, saying, man, that Second Evil is a meanie... that's okay. Just keep reading and I'll prove you wrong.

That's all a fancy way to say: I prefer, encourage, and even sometimes push people to use intellectual stringency and analysis in the process of pushing the boundaries of the Whedonverse... So prepare to have your summer reading list shoved wide open.

Now you know as much as these pixels can tell you. The rest, well, I'll figure out as I go along. Stay tuned for next week, when Sol says:

Postmodernist angst is good for you!

[> Yay! Now all we need are Liq and Rowan and we'll have a set! -- Marie, 08:35:16 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> Posable action figures with cool must-have gear... -- Rendyl, 15:08:50 07/30/03 Wed

Can I order the whole set? I want Rowan with Kung-Fu grip, Sol with a tiny copy of 'On the Essence of Reason' and Liq with a cute laptop. (modeled after Velma's computer from the 'Pup Named Scooby Doo' cartoon)

Ren -needs one set keep and one set to sell on Ebay next year when the price goes up-

[> [> [> My action figure comes with 12-gauge pump-action Remington 870. -- Solitude1056, 20:14:11 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> Hi all! -- Rowan, 17:18:27 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> *poke* hey yourself! -- Solitude1056, 20:15:18 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> Rowan!!!!! -- ponygirl, 06:51:36 07/31/03 Thu

[> [> [> hey there! :-) :-):-) -- aliera, 10:09:19 07/31/03 Thu

[> [> [> I've been reading you in archives. Please come back! -- Caroline, 12:01:22 07/31/03 Thu

[> [> [> Hey, Rowan! Loooong time no see! :o) -- Rob, 06:34:11 08/01/03 Fri

[> Oooh! Polishing an apple for teacher. -- ponygirl, 08:35:51 07/30/03 Wed

I'm so excited! Reading lists and footnotes!

Sol, I don't know how much of Angel you watch but I'd be interested in a future lecture on how existentialism applies to AtS s4 with its wacky explorations of identity, free will and religion.

Looking forward to summer school!

[> I don't *do* footnotes, Sol -- Random, 09:04:05 07/30/03 Wed

Unless I absolutely have to. I spent 8 years of college avoiding the hell out of them. And I turned out reasonably know-ludge-uble. I read the texts, I ponder the texts, occasionally I can even remember the text. But no footnotes. Endnotes...sometimes. If I cite a primary source -- which, being a medievalist, I had to do with distressing frequency -- I give an annotation and tell people to DTOFR.

Oh, and I definitely don't do grad-level stat classes. One undergrad was enough for me and I went back to pontificating (i.e. b.s.-ing) in the application of Aristoleanism to pseudo-Dionysius and whether, given that Barthes was a little trippy, pigs really do have wings.

Other than that, Sol, welcome back. Hopefully we can get back to the business of the people in the groves of Academe. Maybe even discover that, despite what people say about him, Hume really wouldn't have hated Joss' vision with a fiery passion and devoted vast portions of "Enquiry concerning Human Understanding" to reviling it. Sure, he would have hated the idea of apocalypses (apocali), but he had a pet peeve against supra-natural phenomena anyway. Secular Scottish philosophers are just cranky, that's all.

[> Regarding Books - a question on one for Sol or anyone? -- s'kat, 09:14:22 07/30/03 Wed

Was wondering if you have read or anyone has read:

Black Sun by Julia Kristeva?

(A friend of mine who read it asked if I could pose this
question to the board after I mentioned the great existentialism essay Sol wrote the other day to her. My friend was curious to know if Sol read this book and what s/he thought of it.)



[> Welcome back, SE -- The FE, 09:55:31 07/30/03 Wed

We missed yah!

[> Sigh...maybe it is the heat. -- Rendyl, 10:52:46 07/30/03 Wed

Okay, I am confused and would rather not comment (other than the Hey, Welcome Back Sol) until I am sure of tone.

The comment about the decline in the level of postings is a tongue-in-cheek thing?

Summer reading list in general? The Melee book choices? A joke or an implication that the rest of us are not reading up to spec?

Other than the above (cough) I love the idea of 'Lecture of the Week' and angst (postmodern or other) is always in vogue when relating to BtVS.

Ren - my neurons are melting in the heat wave -

[> [> ::drenching R's neurons with ice-water before synapses stop snapping:: -- WickedBuffy, 11:11:54 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Assuming I survive the shock (grin) thanks.... -- Ren *sweat is not a many splendored thing * dyl, 11:24:31 07/30/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> mah pleasuh! (don't worry, some will grow back in - good as new!) -- WickedBuffy :>, 10:38:03 08/01/03 Fri

[> [> My tongue's only in my cheek when my foot's absent. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 11:58:08 07/30/03 Wed

[> The Postmodernist in me has to say... -- Darby, 15:09:50 07/30/03 Wed

...Who / what you are is a usually a critical element when you're trying to explain your interpretation of virtually anything. It's also very useful in fleshing out a concept, but Buffyverse experience can substitute for personal ones.

It's just that I have a little buzzer in my head that goes off when folks say that their own persona is irrelevant to what they see in a subject. And I know that you did modify that a bit before the end of the post, but the damn buzzer was already buzzing...

Grad-level stat? Geez, I had enough trouble with undergraduate statistics - maybe it was because when I'd ask the professor something like, "Okay, at this point in the formula you subtract 2. Why?" His answer would be, "Because it works that way." Needless to say, I'm also suspicious of statistics.

[> [> Re: The Postmodernist in me has to say... -- Rahael, 16:30:17 07/30/03 Wed

Agreeing with Darby here (for some reason I feel compelled to defend the personal perspective on the Buffyverse).

I love the abstract philosophical posts here. I'm really looking forward to your post on postmodernism, Sol. But I also really value the personal perspectives of others.

It would seem a little ironic to me, that we could analyse a scene where Buffy and (insert Vampire of ship choice here) kiss, in philosophical terms, but then try to deny that the personal in our lives can have a similar meaning. (Though I'll admit that that doesn't mean that anyone else is actually interested, and it's not appropriate to share with strangers).

The Buffyverse tends to be playful with the big concepts. It tends to wear its learning lightly, it delivers its big ideas with a little wink while being absolutely, deadly serious about the content of the message.

I've written my fair share of footnoted essays; I think I could hold my own under the new rules you're proposing. However, one truth is very important to me. Not to forget the human in the abstract idea. This isn't something trivial to me. It's something I accord a great deal of importance to. You might say it's the imperative that directs my day to day work, my political ideals. It's the reason why I tend to love the quirky, generous inclusive, humane works of art - like Tristram Shandy, Fielding's Tom Jones, BtVS and AtS, the poems of Larkin and George Herbert.

It's that BtVS can make us feel the personal agony of Buffy losing Joyce, can make us understand the real human emotions behind big ethical dilemmas that made me think it had an integrity worth paying attention to.

This is what drove my passion for history - the histories of culture, of societies and communities. Accessing whole mental landscapes through the peculiar outlook of one particular individual. I just am interested in personal perspectives. I found it a way of finding invaluable clues to what made a culture, distant from us by time, tick. Some of the best fun I ever had was using quirky records, personal histories, and letters. The most superb work I've ever come across at uncovering the religious (and thus, the political) landscape of mid 17th C England was through the analysis of the speeches of one man.

I'll never view other posters on this board as pixels. My favourite literary characters are more than words on a page - the cast of BtVS and AtS more than moving images. Well, literary and tv show characters do not have any existence beyond the animation my imagination gives them. But behind the pixels here, there are real human beings.

Of course, this could all just an elaborate attempt to give my posting style some spurious credibility;). I also wanted you to know that I read your post with great seriousness, and will be thinking hard about the points you made about the relative merit of personal views on the main subject of discussion here.

[> [> [> Very well said. Thank you Rah. -- Rendyl, 18:38:13 07/30/03 Wed

That was much of what I was feeling but (for various reasons) was unable to articulate earlier today. I also love how gently you said it.


[> [> [> [> This is timely! -- Rahael, 19:38:51 07/30/03 Wed

Since I have been waiting for the opportunity to say how much I've admired your recent work!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: This is timely! -- Rendyl, 13:43:53 07/31/03 Thu

Thank you.

I am amazed anyone can make sense of it. My server and the Voy server have been fighting lately so it is common for me to log in, read two or so messages, get bounced out and then not be able to get back on for days. As a result I miss entire threads, or post a comment and never get back to answer it.


[> [> [> Absolutely--How can we tell the dancer from the dance? -- mamcu, 08:12:23 08/01/03 Fri

[> [> Kinda disagree -- Caroline, 08:39:32 07/31/03 Thu

I think what Sol is doing is setting up a boundary. You may have access to his/her words but not to his/her life, background etc. If you are not satisfied with that, too bad. It may sound harsh but actually it's not - it's a very healthy demarcation of boundaries. Focus on the words, arguments, etc, not the gender nor anyone's life experience. If someone does not choose to divulge those things, it doesn't lessen the validity of their argument and we should respect their right to privacy. I respect Sol's position and his/her ability to put it forward in this manner.

[> [> [> Re: Kinda disagree -- Rahael, 09:26:42 07/31/03 Thu

Absolutely no quarrel with that. Just tackling the implication that it was bad taste on other people's part for not applying similar boundaries, and that those replying to Sol's posts should abide by the rules as set out.

I'm happy to abide by such bouundaries in my replies and keep them very impersonal. I was just trying to say that that intellectual perspectives and rigorous ones to boot need not necessarily exclude the personal.

[> [> [> [> Not to step in here -- Diana, 14:27:54 07/31/03 Thu

I find an existentialist, which is supposed to value experiences in shaping an individual, who only wants to talk about beliefs/ideas/whatever to be an interesting situation. So here is what I (or whatever footnoted source that has various letters after their name) believes using really big words that no one uses in normal conversation and many had to even be made up just so I can talk about this. No offense intended, but big deal. Our beliefs are shaped by our experiences, so without getting into those experiences, how can we discuss the validity of those beliefs?

IMNSHO, YMMV gets tiresome after a while. We all have difference experinces that cause us to have different beliefs. Unless we get into what causes those beliefs, namely our experiences, what are we really sharing? Multi-paged essays with footnotes up the wazoo come to life and mean that much more when personal experience is used to illustrate them. Why separate the two? Why separate anything at all? Isn't part of the point of existentialism that these separations aren't real?

And to be honest, I don't value the words of long dead men over the real experience of the live posters here. Too much harm has been done to the Western psyche because of this. Rather than experience life and draw our own conclusions, we read about others who have done this, or even worse, who read about it ad infinitum.

Of course I am sure that there are those that disagree with me, just as I am sure that there are those that agree with me. Once upon a time, philosopher meant lover of wisdom. Now it seems to mean someone who is incapable of actually thinking and instead can just parrot back people who did.

To me that is what ATPo is all about. It is about people that actually think getting together and talking about what they think about. I would like to see more lurkers feel comfortable enough to post. What they say to me off board is often incredibly beautiful and it is a shame that they don't want to post because they don't feel they have anything valuable to share.

Not to fan the flames, but that is just how I feel. It comes from my own experiences, which I'm sure differ from yours. There is room for both on the board, but I am speaking up for experience and feelings and to encourage all the lurkers to share because EVERYONE has something valuable to say.

Source for this: Me and all the things that I have ever read/experienced which make me who I am. If I post my CV, would I then be an acceptable source? How many references would you like?

[> [> [> [> [> Wonderful post. -- Alison, 14:57:30 07/31/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Which is what I was saying. -- Solitude1056, 15:34:26 07/31/03 Thu

Pick one or any combination:
- 100% "I feel"
- 100% "an authority says"
- 100% "I don't respect your boundaries"

... all will produce the same response: Twit Filter Engaged.

My point was that I don't like the extremes of one or the other, not that personal experiences have no place in our understanding. The corollary to this, of course, is that I don't believe it's necessary to give anyone a full biography - nor do I like reading them - in order to understand the conclusions reached from an experience.

IOW, I agree with what you're saying.

[> [> [> [> [> Thank you Diana, totally agree -- yabyumpan, 18:31:53 07/31/03 Thu

As someone who has very limited formal education, who's not particually well read and works primaraly from an emotional perspective, having to post in the way Sol would pretty much exclude me from the board. I'm not going to be excluded, I'll post in the way that feels right for me and if too personal or not intellectual enough for some people then, then they don't have to read it. It took me a long time to start posting in the first place because I felt over whelmed by the itellectual level of the posts and I'm sorry if any body thinks that posts like mine bring down the the level of the board. I do feel though that my poorly educated, poorly read life is actually full of rich experience which is of value. That doesn't mean that I feel the need to 'share' my life with every post but it does mean that any stuff I reference comes from my life experience and generally not from books or formal education. That's just the way this poster is, choose to read me or not

[> [> [> [> [> [> Geez, people. -- Solitude1056, 08:21:33 08/01/03 Fri

I never said I was going to grade everyone else; I was simply clarifying my own standards. For instance, if you feel it necessary to give me your entire biography in order to explain how you feel about an issue, that's your call, but I don't work that way. On the other hand: Yab, I know your posting style and you've never struck me as someone who has to justify your stand on a position with long-winded personal histories either, so I'm not worried I'll have to skip your posts!

Insert smiley face here.

[> [> [> [> I know what you are saying.. -- Caroline, 17:46:10 07/31/03 Thu

but I don't think that was Sol's point. I re-read Sol's post and s/he seems to be saying that s/he won't do personal discussion/revelation, not that you can't. Sol can say and prefer whatever s/he wants. But you are also free to prefer what you want.

[> [> [> [> [> I have no preference -- Rahael, 04:44:20 08/02/03 Sat

I like all sorts of posts.

[> [> [> Agreeing with Caroline's agreeing with Sol -- sdev, 09:30:44 07/31/03 Thu

[> Glad you're back--and a little of that much-needed discipline! -- mamcu who used to be luna (notebook ready, pen in hand), 15:34:18 07/30/03 Wed

As you see, some have been reborn here. Looking forward to many evenings of severely formal scholarly presentations.

[> Grad-level stats? Ha! -- Caroline, 16:29:55 07/30/03 Wed

I spit on your grad-level stats. Try grad level econometrics and a little bit of operations research and then come back to me and start snivelling!

(the above must be read with a bad French accent).

But I welcome you return to the board and look forward to your special brand of the mischievous and the snarky.

[> Well Miss, I'm gonna continue to post non-intellectual, emotion-based posts... -- Diane (yabby's Evil Twin), 22:57:14 07/30/03 Wed

...that includes personal references and bad speling.

I am not a pixel, I'm a real woman

(and don't bother sending me to the Principal's office, I'll just eat him!)

[> [> Though it might be an interesting challenge (1) to footnote our lives. -- WickedBuffy(2) replaces foot(3) in mouth w/ tongue-in-cheek, 12:07:10 08/01/03 Fri

Putting footnotes to those* types of posts.

Just get some old calendars (4), photo albums, ect out and have them ready. When you (5), in the general sense, mention something based on a particular experience you once had, check the date of it, what you were doing, who you were with, whatever.

(6)Voila! It's experience-footnoting! Taken from life, not a book, yet duly noted and recorded. That's how I (b. 19XX) would do it.


1. Many times I'll use the word "challenge" instead of "boring" or "nerve-wracking" or any other word that might come off as negative. When I was HR Director for a legitimate financial company, I found it a more positive way to communicate difficult situations or tasks to others. But this just wasn't one of those times.

2. I originally chose this name because I liked Buffy best when she was being bad. Dancing around with Faith. Being snarky about Cordy. Yet the name I've always used before online was "WickedGood". I may go back to that one because now everytime I sign a post, SMG's head pops into my head. But its huge, like an oversized helium balloon. I don't like that so much.

3. I dip both feet in chocolate first thing every morning. It makes for a much tastier day.

4. I didn't save old calendars until 1997. That's when I started getting audited tax-wise. I found them to be an excellent, reliable resource for calming Uncle Sam.

5. Using "you" as a general term makes me feel less egotistical than if I kept using "I". Even though I'm a Leo, my moon is in Cancer. So I also have a very quiet, unassuming side to my personality.

6. This word always reminds me of Bullwinkle pulling a rabbit out of his hat. That image humors me. It also makes it appear I speak more than one language. But I'm not sure if it's French, Italian or Latin.

*Extra Note - I write "those" kinds of posts.

[> [> [> I'm glad I don't think you're extracting the Michael. -- Celebaelin, 16:39:59 08/01/03 Fri

It would show far too much forethought.

[> [> [> [> huh? "Michael"? -- WB, 21:29:03 08/01/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Taking the Mickey -- Celebaelin, 01:19:40 08/02/03 Sat

Taking the piss? Making fun of.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Still not understanding the post. One more try, please? -- WickedBuffy :/, 14:19:06 08/02/03 Sat

[> [> [> two in one -- sdev, 22:39:48 08/01/03 Fri

Loving it. Footnotes and the personal in one. How do you do it? Sort of like recycling- quite efficient.

[> [> [> [> lol yes! readers could pick'n'chose the amount of info they personally preferred having. -- WickedBuffy, 15:13:27 08/02/03 Sat

[> I can do footnotes OK.. it's the bit above them that gets me every time -- MsGiles, such a lightweight, 02:30:56 07/31/03 Thu

[> [> LOL, MsGiles! and thank-you for the first smile of the morning! -- WickedBuffy, 10:41:18 08/01/03 Fri

[> a request... -- btvsk8, 04:47:49 07/31/03 Thu

Since you have so nicely offered to take requests, i'd love your perspective on Rousseau, specifically his Social Contract. Have no idea if it can be related to the Buffyverse, but some help with it would be very much appreciated- footnotes and all!

[> [> I'll put it on the list, along with the other requests. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 08:28:04 07/31/03 Thu

[> hey, sol! nice to see you back! & rowan too! -- anom, 21:48:32 07/31/03 Thu

"If you want to interact with me as a person and not an essay, then you'll have to come to DC."

Been there, done that, glad I did! Too bad I can't make it this weekend. >sniff<

Wait, does that mean you don't travel? Or don't want to meet other posters when you do?

Anyway, I'm glad you're back. Looking forward to reading your essays/lectures. But I'll slouch if I want.

And Rowan--hope you're doing OK!

Is that fake Spike the Male Vampire Slayer script posted anywhere? -- Vash the Stampede, 12:32:47 07/30/03 Wed

Even though it was a fake, I did think it was pretty well written, and was wondering if it was posted anywhere. Also, was there a whole "episode" written out, or just a first act? I've already read that part, and was curious to see if there is anymore. I really need a Buffy/Angel fix ;)


[> Re: Is that fake Spike the Male Vampire Slayer script posted anywhere? -- fresne, 17:22:06 07/30/03 Wed

Are you talking about the one where Spike returns as a male Slayer because of his hunk of ugly Slayer jewelry? The writer then proceeds to spoof every fandom in existence with a series of snipits of episodes.

My favorite bit being Spike whining to Angel that he needs a dojo (so he can train to be a Slayer) and they do this whole Highlander thing.

If yes, it was on someoneís LJ. I think I saw the link from yet another LJ. Iíll see if I can dig it up.

I hope whoever it was compiles it. The bit with the poor lost widdle puppy, why oh why, sob, was also pretty funny. Okay, and the bit with Spike talking like a gansta rapper because of a spell gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Okay, it was all pretty funny.

[> [> Well, even if it's not the one you mention... -- deeva, 19:43:13 07/30/03 Wed

it's sounds hilarious! I would love to take a look at it when you do find it.

[> Here it is -- curious, 05:58:56 07/31/03 Thu

Remember this is "fake" but still funny.

* The first characters we see are Buffy and Spike. Itís a flashback to Spikeís final moments over the Sunnydale hellmouth. Spike goes all bright and dusty, then:

* The first new scene is set in Wolfram & Hartís ìWhite Room.î Itís somebodyís point of view. Somebody on his or her back. Winifred, Charles and Wesley are all peering down. None of the trio has ever seen this mystery-person before, but Wes seems to have a pretty good idea who it is. Angel arrives and eliminates any abmbiguity with a single-word: ìSpike.î No more POV. Spike naked save a familiar-looking amulet, turns groggily toward Angel and mutters, ìOh Ö bloody hell.î He hear a violin and the title credits roll.

* Actually, before the big reveal, the first thing we hear in the White Room POV shot is heavy breathing. But when we see Team Angel hovering, none of them seems to be breathing very hard.

* When Angel offers Spike a cup of blood in the law firmís examination room, Spike says he actually feels like a chocolate shake.

* The second Spike learns Buffy survived the big doings in what used to be Sunnydale, he starts off to find his true love. But Angel wonít let him leave until he can figure out why Spike is still alive. ìOh reeaaly?î asks Spike. ìAnd are we sure thatís the reason now?î Angel also wants the amulet back, since itís technically Wolfram & Hart property. A big Spike-Angel fight ensues.

* There is much shattering of law-firm glass. As the Spike-Angel fight grows more intense, Angel goes into vamp-face. Spike tries to do the same, but finds he canít!

* Angel manages to yank the Amulet away from Spike. Spike begins gasping and turning blue. ìAngel, the amulet,î cries Wesley. ìI think he needs it. Heís dying.î Angel hesitates, but Fred reminds Angel that Spike just finished saving the world.

* Angel returns the amulet and Spikeís complexion immediately turns rosier. ìHis breathing is returning to normal,î advises Wes. ìëBreathing?íî asks Fred.

* Angel rips a giant mirror from the wall. He canít see himself in it, but Spike casts a reflection!

* Lilah turns up with Spikeís blood test. The DNA matches what the Initiative took out of Hostile 17 four years ago, but the amulet seems to have ìcleansedî the vampire right out of Spike. Heís all human now!

* Wes remembers the Shanshu prophecy. ìWhen that a souled vampire fulfills his destiny ñ whatever that may be ñ he becomes human.î

* But if Spikeís human, why is so strong, and able to fight Angel so effectively? Wes remembers speaking to Willow by phone about the ìjoining spellî that turned all the potentials into slayers. ìSo when the cleansing began,î asks Lilah, ìdid you ñ I dunno ñ touch Buffy?î Spike answers in the affirmative, flashing back to the fiery hand-holding.

* And then, at the end of this first act, Lilah and Wes come to the same conclusion ñ and reveal one last amazing thing about this new Spike:

* Heís now the worldís first male vampire slayer.

[> [> and here it is is script form... -- Alison, 12:28:23 07/31/03 Thu




The entire town is QUAKING and CRUMBLING.

SUPERIMPOSE: 'Sunnydale. May 2003.'


The cavern is collapsing. Debris is falling all around. We see SPIKE, wearing the amulet, pinned. BUFFY stands next to him.

Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for the bloody summer.


I mean it. I gotta do this.

Buffy takes her own hand, interlocks it with his frozen hand. A moment, and both hands burst into flames.

We hold close on the two of them, ignoring the flames, looking at each other.

I love you.

A moment. He smiles kindly.

No you don't. But thanks for saying it.

A big quake rocks them. Spike pushes her away.

SPIKE (cont'd)
It's your world up there. Now GO!

She looks at him -- and bolts.

He looks back at the destruction in front of him, smiles wickedly.

SPIKE (cont'd)
I wanna see how it ends.


Buffy heads up the stairs.


Spike is still smiling--LAUGHING even--as he is eaten from inside by the power. The world falls away from beneath him, when suddenly...





POV of an unseen figure, prone on his/her back, staring at the white ceiling of the room. We hear HEAVY BREATHING.

The face of FRED comes into frame, looking down at the prone figure. She is wearing a white lab coat. Her eyes peer toward someone O.S. in front of her.

How did he get here?

GUNN's face appears in frame, opposite FRED.

Greyhound maybe?

It was the amulet.


WESLEY appears in frame as well, looking down sternly.

The cleansing.

Wait. You know this guy?

I know OF him.

Who is he?


The POV shot ends. We see an OVER-THE-SHOULDER SHOT of ANGEL of FRED, WESLEY, and GUNN in the b.g., blocking any view of the prone individual.

CLOSE on ANGEL, who stares piercingly toward the prone figure (who is still unseen).


WESLEY, GUNN, and FRED step aside as a fast DOLLY SHOT closes in on the prone SPIKE--wearing only the amulet--as he groggily turns in the direction of ANGEL.


Oh...bloody hell.





We see over the shoulders of ANGEL and LORNE as they look through a glass window at an examing room below.

SPIKE--annoyed but willing--is sitting on a table wearing a hospital gown. He is being poked and prodded by a team of WOLFRAM AND HART SCIENTISTS (including KNOX) and MYSTICS.

So what's up with you and Mr. Blonde, Angelfood?

ANGEL's eyes cut a hole through SPIKE, who peers up briefly then turns his attention to the SCIENTISTS and MYSTICS.


I was his sire.
Well...once removed. Sorta like his grandpa I guess.
(turns away)
I've known him for over a century.

I see. One of your 'oldest and dearest friends.'

ANGEL pauses, reflects.

INSERT: Brief clip of SPIKE and ANGEL--as friends--'partying' in the 19th century.

We had our moments. Killed a lotta people together. Shared a flat.
Guess you could call it a love/hate thing.

INSERT: SPIKE beating ANGEL down with a fire poker.

LORNE senses something. Knows something.

AND...you were in love with the same woman.

ANGEL says nothing.

It was Buffy wasn't it?

ANGEL starts to exit.

I don't wanna talk about it.

You don't hafta TALK about it.

(shouts out)
I don't wanna SING about it either, Lorne!

LORNE grins.


KNOX sticks a syringe into SPIKE's arm. He flinches.

Hey! Y'know a vampire sacrifices his LIFE to save the world and you'd THINK he might get a little bit of respect to bloody show for it!

(OS as he enters)
Whatta you want us to do, Spike?

ANGEL walks toward SPIKE.

Build a cathedral in your honor?

Yeah, that...or maybe a simple milkshake would suffice.

ANGEL pulls a wad of cash out of his pocket and hands it to SCIENTIST #1. SPIKE takes notice of the money.

Get him a milkshake.

What flavor?

(stares at SCIENTIST #1)

SCIENTIST #1 nods as if to say "Ah," then starts to exit.

Actually...I could sorta go for chocolate.

ANGEL and SCIENTIST #1 exchange glances.


SCIENTIST #1 exits. SPIKE then begins to speak rather loudy to no one in particular.

And I'd LIKE to have some clothes that don't rob me of my demonic dignity.

Guess you lost that cool wardrobe of yours in the disaster, huh Spike?

Yeah, well, it tends to happen when the entire town gets sucked into the mouth of hell.

Speakin' of which...how'd you do it? How exactly DID you pull that one off?

Oh, like you care.

I AM sorta curious.

Is that right? Good. Then I'll TALK when I'm not wearing a GOWN.

ANGEL turns to SCIENTIST #2.

Get him some clothes.

SCIENTIST #2 nods.


SPIKE buckles up his pants and puts on a T-shirt. ANGEL leans on his desk.

I spoke to Buffy.

SPIKE's eyes light up.

She made it?

Yeah...but she said YOU didn't.

BEAT. SPIKE starts to exit.

I have to go to her.

ANGEL stops him.

No you don't Spike. Not until I figure out why you're still alive.

Oh, reeaaally? And are we sure that's the reason now?

What other reason would there be?

Oh, I wonder.

SPIKE looks ANGEL straight in the eye.

You know I was there, right? The night in the vineyard with Caleb and the scythe.

I know. I smelled you. Felt you watching us.
Musta pissed you off when she kissed me like that.

You mean when YOU kissed HER.

To-may-toe. Tah-mah-toe.

Ohhh, look'a'choo. It's eating you up, isn't it? The great brooding Santa Claus...all one-upped at his own game. The girl sent YOU away and chose ME to be her champion.

You're delusional.

Am I now?
(holds amulet)
Well, I didn't see you there...takin' down The First now did I?

(holds out hand)
Give me the amulet.

Excuse me?

You heard me. It's Wolfram and Hart property. It belongs to me.

SPIKE tucks the amulet inside his shirt.

I don't think so.

Fine. Then I'll just take it.

ANGEL starts to reach for SPIKE's neck. SPIKE grabs ANGEL's arm. They eye each other intently.

I don't think so.

Mr. Angel?

ANGEL and SPIKE turn. SCIENTIST #1 is standing in the doorway, holding a milkshake.


SPIKE looks at ANGEL. They exchange knowing glances.

I did save the world you know.

ANGEL closes his eyes. He SIGHS, then shoves SPIKE's arm aside.


ANGEL, FRED, GUNN, WESLEY, and LORNE stand by as SPIKE consumes his milkshake. ANGEL seems annoyed. The others are just mildly confused. WOLFRAM AND HART WORKERS move about busily behind them.

SPIKE SLURPS the shake through a straw, then removes the lid from the cup and uses the straw to stir the contents of the cup before putting the straw down on a nearby desk.

From there, he picks up a plastic spoon, inserts it into the cup and eats a little of the shake.

Everyone stares silently.

SPIKE dabs his mouth with a napkin, then turns the cup upside down and taps the bottom so that the ice cream oozes into his mouth.

Finally, he re-inserts the straw and makes one last SLURPING sound before he lets out a satisfied SIGH. He then tosses the cup into a garbage can.

(turns to ANGEL)


SPIKE and ANGEL CRASH through a glass window. OFFICE WORKERS scurry.

FRED, WESLEY, and GUNN, along with other employees, rush to observe as SPIKE and ANGEL battle tooth and nail, exchanging blows and kicks.

ANGEL swings. SPIKE grabs a coffee pot. ANGEL punches it, SHATTERING the glass. SPIKE then hits him with a spinning heel kick, driving him into the microwave oven cart.

SPIKE charges and ANGEL ducks. SPIKE punches a hole through the microwave door. It explodes and SPIKE's hand is momentarily trapped. ANGEL seizes the opportunity and goes for the amulet.

Gimme the amulet!

Bite me!

SPIKE whacks ANGEL with his free elbow, knocking him backwards. SPIKE then pulls his trapped hand out and advances with a JOYOUS SCREAM.


SPIKE backs ANGEL into the lobby with a flurry of punches. ANGEL takes him down with a legsweep, mounts him, and starts driving in a series of quick palm shots.

FRED, WESLEY, and GUNN watch.

So this is what an Angel family reunion looks like.

Apparently so.

Hate to see em after a coupla six packs.

Oh please. This is nothing compared to my Uncle Buddy and Aunt Jean from Waco.

WESLEY and GUNN stare at each other as FRED continues to watch the fight. They shake it off and turn toward ANGEL and SPIKE as well.

SPIKE monkeyflips ANGEL off of him, kips up, and looks at ANGEL, who stands with his vampire face on.

Time to put on your game face, William.

I thought you'd never ask.

SPIKE tries to put on his vamp face--letting out a weak cat-like GROWL--but to no avail. He's confused but tries again. Nothing.

What's that? A furball caught'n your throat?

SPIKE feels his canine teeth, perplexed as to why his fangs haven't appeared.


ANGEL tackles SPIKE and drives him out of frame.

ANGEL mounts SPIKE once again and nails him with a series of right crosses. He then reaches down and yanks the amulet from his neck.

ANGEL stands, returns to human mode, and smiles. A job well done.

There. That wasn't so hard now was it, Spike?


What's wrong with him?!

WESLEY, GUNN, and FRED rush to SPIKE, who is GASPING for air and turning blue.

I've never seen anything like this from a vampire.

WESLEY looks up at ANGEL, who is staring at the amulet, which is now glowing.

Angel, the amulet. I think he NEEDS it. He's dying.

ANGEL stares.

Angel?! He saved the world.

ANGEL hesitates, then finally tosses the amulet in the direction of SPIKE, who grabs it and clutches it. SPIKE's blue skin returns to normal and he starts to BREATH regularly.

It worked.

His breathing is returning to normal.

BEAT. FRED looks up at WESLEY.


FRED and WESLEY look to each other, then to GUNN, and finally to ANGEL, who already gets the picture.

ANGEL, with purpose in mind, heads toward a giant wall mirror (which doesn't cast his reflection) and rips it from its hinges. He takes it and holds it in front of SPIKE.


SPIKE looks at himself in the mirror. At first there's a look of shock in his eyes, then joy.

ANGEL, still holding the mirror, turns away in mild disgust.


ANGEL, SPIKE, FRED, WESLEY, LORNE, and GUNN are seated around the board table. LILAH enters, carrying a briefcase.

(smiles devilishly)
Well, well, well. Look at this. You're already calling your first board meeting.

We wouldn't have contacted you if it wasn't urgent, Lilah.

LILAH puts her briefcase down on the table.

You know, Wes, for a buncha people who spent so many years trying to get rid of me, it seems like you just can't get enough these days.

What'd you come up with, Lilah?

(removes documents from briefcase)
Well, Knox was right. Spike really is...well, Spike.

(mutters under breath)
Told you.

We ran his DNA against the samples taken when he was a prisoner of the government Initiative. It matches up.

And how do you explain the reflection?

Well see, that's the tricky part. While the tests prove conclusively that this really is William the Bloody...

BEAT as everyone soaks in the moment.

...there isn't a trace of vampire in him.

Huh? How is that possible?

Like I said before, we don't fully understand the powers of the amulet. Just that it maintains 'cleansing properties' and if used in an uncontrolled environment, could cause 'interesting' side effects.



Shanshu. It's an ancient prophecy about a vampire with a soul.

ANGEL and SPIKE cut the snake eye at one another.

When that souled vampire fulfills his destiny--whatever that may be--he becomes human.

Wait...are you telling me that I'm...human?



Okay that explains that, BUT...if Spike's human now...why wasn't Angel able to kick his ass?

Hey! I was doing a pretty damn good job of it before he...
...needed his inhaler.

No, she's right. As bad as you was, Angel, that boy was hangin'.

I spoke to Willow about what happened in Sunnydale with The First. She mentioned something about a joining spell?

Yeah. Buffy and Faith...they shared their powers with the Potentials. Made em all Slayers.

So when the 'cleansing' began...did you--I dunno--TOUCH Buffy?

ANGEL reacts to the thought of SPIKE and BUFFY touching. BEAT.


INSERT: FLASHBACK to BUFFY and SPIKE interlocking hands. The flames.

She held on to me. There was fire.
I've never felt anything like it.

Then might I suggest that we have a bit of an anomaly on our hands.


What kind of anomaly?

Well it would seem--and this is just an educated guess--that for the first time in recorded history...we now have a male slayer.


SPIKE and ANGEL sit at attention, completely stunned by this news.

Spike...you're a vampire slayer.

SPIKE and ANGEL let this soak in. BEAT. SPIKE is somewhat overwelmed. ANGEL gets a sheepish grin on his face.

Well, that's kinda girly.



[> [> [> Thanks :). Do you know if any more was written? -- Vash the Stampede, 12:50:41 07/31/03 Thu

Hey thanks for looking it up for me. Do you know if anymore was written or was there only the first act?

[> [> [> [> As far as I know, only the first act. -- Alison, 12:57:27 07/31/03 Thu

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