June 2002 posts
IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- dingoes_ate_me, 06:47:08 06/10/02 Mon
basically that is my question, if buffy does end next year does anyone else think that they should end angel aswell?
dont get me wrong, i like both shows but in the 'final appocalypse' which has been mentioned in both shows, they are supposed to be together, he is supposed to save her and he becomes human( i think that is how it goes?). If he does become human then his story is kind of complete, seeing as that is why he is working for the powers
so i was hoping they do like a four part finale, with two parts on buffy and two parts on angel (kinda like the faith storyline which crossed over)
[> The magic number for syndication is 100... -- cjl, 07:59:23 06/10/02 Mon
Ideally, BUFFY and ANGEL should end together, with a humongous, 44-episode mega-crossover (with a single, big story involving both casts and locations) that would resolve all the major plotines and end in the aforementioned four-part group reunion/blowout. (Ideally, the big storyline might even cross over to RIPPER!)
But BUFFY and ANGEL are now on separate networks, and there still seems to be post-partum resentment on the part of the WB. (I'm not entirely sure they could stop Joss if he said, "Screw this. They're my shows, and I want to do cross-overs." But maybe Joss just doesn't want to provoke any more hostility.) The WB simply does not want to promote BUFFY, no matter how much it might help ANGEL. (Nose. Face. Spite. Just sayin'...)
Even if the network thing weren't a problem and Joss dropped the party line of "I think Angel is better off establishing itself as an independent series," there's the problem of syndication. To get a juicy syndication deal, you normally need 100 episodes. If Buffy ends after Season 7 and they Shanshu our favorite vampire at the end of Season 4, ANGEL will have 88 episodes in the can. That might be enough anyway, but I think Mutant Enemy would rather wait until after Season 5 for a better deal.
Finally, there's the simple fact that Joss doesn't want ANGEL to end after next season or Season 5. Everyone involved has said they'd love ANGEL to go at least seven. Joss is perfectly capable of closing out Buffy's story without involving the ANGEL cast. So even if Sarah Michelle Gellar agrees to Season 8 and they have a chance to send everyone out together, that doesn't mean Joss would automatically leap at the chance.
I'd like to see them go out together, but I don't think it'll happen.
A BUFFY movie?
[> [> Re: Although... -- LittleBit, 08:17:27 06/10/02 Mon
...if Buffy ends after S7, the cast would be available for guest spots on Angel.....Hmmmmm....
[> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- skeeve, 08:33:07 06/10/02 Mon
One way to handle it is to have different time rates on the series. Season 7 of Buffy could corresponds to seasons 4-7 on Angel.
Of course the series Angel wouldn't necessarily end when the individual Angel becomes human. Xander is a Scooby and he doesn't have any super-powers.
[> [> The series continues with a post-Shanshu Angel? Well... -- cjl, 09:15:21 06/10/02 Mon
"Tonight on the WB...ANGEL! He used to have all these cool vampire powers, and struggled for redemption--now, he's just like you and me, only with his own series! It's thrilling television! (No, really, trust us. He's still got the cool, sexy, black clothing and looks great fighting evil...")
[> [> [> Re: The series continues with a post-Shanshu Angel? Well... -- skeeve, 10:57:49 06/10/02 Mon
You are describing Maverick, not post-Shanshu Angel. Unless the big battle wipes supernatural evil from the face of the earth, post-Shanshu Angel can still involve supernatural battles. Maybe Angel will the watcher for both Buffy and Faith. How much time does Faith have left on her sentence? I see Fred as the resident witch. Even if Wesley is available, doing spells while angry is probably not a good idea.
The big battle might wipe supernatural evil off the face of Sunnydale. In that case, Buffy would move to LA to be with Angel. Craters don't make good homes.
[> Complications -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:48:40 06/10/02 Mon
I hope they don't! So far, I haven't had a chance to watch Angel, so a crossover finale would really dissapoint me. But I hope it does get into syndication after 5 seasons so I can see what I missed.
[> Fairly soon (on the time limits for humans playing immortals) -- Vickie, 09:33:55 06/10/02 Mon
Relatively soon, it will be laughable for David Boreanaz to play an undead, unchanging, immortal champion. He looks great, but the guy is maturing and that isn't likely to stop.
Same thing goes for James Marsters, though he seems to keep himself pretty strictly in shape and so might have greater longevity in his role. Nevertheless, Father Time will have the last word on both of them.
Assuming the shows last that long.
[> [> Re: Fairly soon (on the time limits for humans playing immortals) -- dubdub, 10:48:14 06/10/02 Mon
I thought so too, originally, but then I remembered the Master, ol' fruit-punchy-mouth. Obviously he did show the signs of age over time, so there's a little leeway for Angel, Spike, and Drusilla.
;o)
[> [> [> Angel with fruit-punch mouth? -- Vickie, 11:38:02 06/10/02 Mon
Can you really see either of our "hero-vampires) with the devolutionary makeup that The Master wore--or anything like it? I can't, but ME's surprise me before (a major reason to watch).
[> [> [> [> Re: Hey, Vickie!! (O/T) -- dubdub, 13:23:18 06/10/02 Mon
Wanted to let you know I've been feeling WAY better in the last week or so...could be normal recuperation or it could be Reiki energy...I'm betting on the latter!
Thanks!!
;o)
[> [> [> [> [> I'm glad you're doing well. -- Vickie, 13:25:20 06/10/02 Mon
[> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- yabyumpan, 10:42:21 06/10/02 Mon
I really,really hope not. I would be fun to have a high school reunion type crossover ep: you've got what! you slept with who! you're now a what!
But I'd love for Angel to carry on after Buffy. To realy stand on it's own. Yes, both shows have mentioned Armagedon, but as Holland said "there's always the next one" Angel could probably carry on for half a season at most after his Shanshu, if he does; it might be interesting to see him coping with being human (shades of IWRY)but it couldn't go any more than that. It would be like watching Buffy if she stoped being the Slayer.
[> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- Audrey, 13:49:20 06/10/02 Mon
"dont get me wrong, i like both shows but in the 'final appocalypse' which has been mentioned in both shows, they are supposed to be together, he is supposed to save her and he becomes human( i think that is how it goes?). If he does become human then his story is kind of complete, seeing as that is why he is working for the powers"
There's no guarantee it'll happen that way, tho, and considering how separate they've tried to make the shows... Let's just say that they've seen a bunch of Apocalyptic battles already, which means there are a bunch of potential Apocalypses in store, and they're not necessarily referring to the same ones... So yeah. Plus, there's speculation that Connor was Angel's shanshu and he'll never become human, and B/A seems to be a sunken ship, so yeah.
[> [> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? (spoileresque) -- O'Cailleagh, 16:47:15 06/10/02 Mon
Also, we have the fact that the prophecy didn't say anything about Angel, just 'the vampire with the soul'...don't we have 2 of those now?
In my opinion, Angel should not carry on without Buffy unless Buffy is not the Legendary Slayer referred to in Fray. If she is, then all supernatural beings will be removed from this plane, and that includes the nice ones!
Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Two -- LittleBit, 06:47:58 06/10/02 Mon
Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Two
[Preface: to avoid misunderstanding of the terms as I am choosing to use them, the Big Bad is the one who drives the season and the story arc; little bads are anyone/anything else, regardless of their degree of 'badness'.]
Season 2: Evil begins to grey and becomes personal.
The BIG BAD
In season 2 the Big Bad was Angelus. A vampire whose reputation for cruelty was legendary. The most vicious creature the Master ever met, and that's saying something. As Angelus, he has no conscience, no sense of much of anything other than the pleasure he derives from causing pain to others. And he is particularly adept at giving emotional and psychological pain. He prides himself on the artistry of it. He never surrounds himself with minions. While he does work with a small group of his family members, Drusilla, whom he sired, and Spike, who was sired by Drusilla, most of what he does is still accomplished on his own. He is alone when he finds Enyos, alone for Jenny; when he leaves the portraits, the fish, the roses he does so in solitude. Actual killing seems almost an afterthought. Perhaps he brings this from the wholesale annihilation of his family and home village: once they're dead, you can't get satisfaction from their reactions. He goes after the Scooby Gang but more to hurt Buffy who has made him feel emotions he despises, than against the Scoobies themselves. It is interesting to note that the only other Scooby he bothers with is Willow with whom he had developed, at the very least, a tentative friendship. He doesn't bother with Xander at all, even though he had an adversarial relationship with him at best. He does however, go after Enyos and Jenny directly, who are members of the clan that cursed him. They who could be seen as responsible for the century of torment he suffered. These two he killed in a spectacularly vicious manner, especially in the way with which he framed the discovery of each death. He looks for the greatest magnitude of destruction or pain he can bring. Quite a contrast to Angel. Angel had set himself squarely in opposition to everything Angelus embraces. He was growing in his ability to assist the Slayer and the Scooby Gang. He is beginning to open himself to emotions other than despair, self-loathing and tormented guilt. This very change, the one that allows him to redress the deeds of his past, to ease his pain, is the one that causes the return of the perpetrator of those deeds. The one thing Angel had in common with Angelus was Buffy. As Willow said, she was still the only thing he thought about. Souled or soulless, his strongest feelings were still reserved for her and her alone. While the season had its little bads there was through all of this the pervasive presence of Angelus, Spike and Drusilla. In the end, Buffy must accept Spike as an uneasy ally, and challenge Angelus in a final battle of Vampire vs. Slayer. And she slays, but the slaying turns intensely personal as Angelus gets his ultimate artistic revenge; she slays Angel.
VAMPIRES
Spike and Drusilla are the most notable of the little bads. It is they who initially challenge the Slayer in ways other vampires hadn't simply because they have a unique relationship and attitude toward themselves and their prey. They make excellent partners with Angelus, but stand effectively on their own as well. Spike removes the threat of the Anointed (or Annoying) one simply because he finds him, well, annoying, then takes over the leadership of the remaining vampires. The relationship between Spike and Drusilla shows the beginning of the graying of the evil. They are able to show affection for each other, which we were led to believe was not possible. They were found to "reek of humanity" by the Judge for their emotional connection. Spike is very much the opportunist, jumping the gun before the Night of St. Vigeus, going out into Ethan's chaos on Halloween, allowing Ford to set up the Lonely Ones Club for the kill, using Willy to capture Angel, using Buffy to regain Drusilla. Spike also shows qualities of a leader by delegating tasks to those who are competent to perform them, such as Dalton, who translates Du Lac's book of spells, and the Order of Taraka. But in counterpoint, many of his own schemes end up in failure simply because he cannot control his impulses or delay gratification. Drusilla is initially quite weak but the reports of her demise were greatly exaggerated. Her feyness adds a level to the insanity that makes her almost ethereal. It's easy to believe she was on the eve of taking vows - she retains an, albeit evil, spirituality. Drusilla shares with Angelus a talent for subtlety and a ruthlessness surpassed only by desire to create chaos. Her torture of Angel is superbly delicate, painful to both body and mind, yet always mindful of the need for Angel to remain alive. It is Drusilla who gives Dalton to the Judge; Dru who goes to the Magic Shop to find out what Jenny had purchased and kills the shopkeeper; Dru who obtains the tomb of Acathla, and kills the curator; Dru who goes to the High School library to get Giles and slays Kendra in the process. Her torture of Giles is exquisite; she invades and violates him in ways Angelus and Spike never even dreamed of. Drusilla enjoys the jealousy and rivalry generated between Spike and Angelus, and revels in exacerbating it whenever she can. Angelus joins her in this, the two of them tormenting Spike, who is in a wheelchair while recovering from the organ falling on him. The three of them make a truly unholy trio, each of them playing off the others, each trying to sow discord among the group, and by doing so sustain the balance of power within the group; Angelus over Drusilla over Spike, in a dysfunctional familial relationship.
There were also Absolom and Colin, the Anointed One, who furthered the Master's agenda, and tried to restore him. They needed the blood (and death) of everyone who was near the Master when he was killed, thus endangering Giles, Jenny, Cordelia and Willow. Although the Anointed One is now the Master of the Order of Aurelius, he needs Absolom and his eloquence to assist his leadership. His leadership is tenuous and based on his being the one prophesied. Their attempt to restore the Master was crucial to Buffy's ability to come to terms with her own death at the Master's hands.
The Gorch brothers came into town looking for some fun. Found something else. Lyle finds a Slayer and has the good sense to run, Tector finds the inside of the Bezoar. The interaction between the two of them is so immature that it is a wonder they have lasted so long. Perhaps there is a good-ole boy luck of the vampire in effect for them, at least until they get to Sunnydale. Their recognition of Angel as Angelus helps to give us more of a sense of Angelus' reputation.
DEMONS
Machida, the embodiment of greed, was the reason for the long line of successful Zeta Kappa alumni. He had corrupted generations who gained financial success through the sacrifice of innocent victims. He's fairly straightforward as demons go: give me the sacrifice I require at regular intervals and I will grant you your avaricious desires. Finally vanquished (with no help from the Guys!-Buffy!-Snake!-Basement!-Now! group), all of the granted wealth and power dissolves.
The Judge was one of the more potentially intriguing demons, ages old, defeated, dismembered, yet not dead, whose purpose is to "rid the Earth of the plague of humanity." Once re-assembled he had the ability to "separate the righteous from the wicked and to burn the righteous down." He would spare only those with no spark of humanity. The first victims he attempts are Spike and Drusilla because of their affection for each other, but this attempt is deflected by Spike, and he is then offered Dalton instead. The books describe him and the battle that finally contained him; "no weapon forged" could kill him. Only the technological advances of our time, and the sheer luck of Xander dressing as a soldier boy for Halloween, allow Buffy to defeat him by blowing him to bits with a rocket launcher. Seriously dismembered, but still not necessarily destroyed. The Judge very nearly rids us of Buffy and Angel, and the aftermath of that encounter returns Angelus to the scene. It is the Judge who gives us confirmation of two important points: the humanity within Spike and Drusilla, and the total lack of humanity within Angelus.
MONSTERS
Daryl Epps is revived by his brother in a horribly disfigured state. He is both unwilling to re-enter society looking like this (his pre-death self was defined by his looks and athletic & sexual prowess) and to shun society in solitude. He was able to convince his brother to provide him with a female companion. Daryl was a reluctant monster; he never asked for his continued existence but in light of its being thrust upon him didn't insist on having it reversed either. He crosses the line eventually into evil when he insists that the companion be finished regardless of what is necessary to do this successfully (the acquisition of a head that has not been embalmed, i.e. a fresh kill). Daryl is an example of the natural order regarding life and death and why it is dangerous to attempt to subvert it.
Ampata the Inca Mummy Girl only wanted a chance to live after being buried alive for half a century as a sacrifice for her people. She was entombed and buried alive never to die, retaining her consciousness and was able to hear what people were saying when she was 'touring.' In Ampata's case she was not necessarily a willing sacrifice, and wanted the chance to be a normal girl. Unfortunately, the only way she could live was to take the life of another: Rodney, the real Ampata, her guardian, attempts at both Jonathan and Willow. She does have some of the experiences she wants with Xander when they fall in love at first smite. He is instantly smitten; she wants this very much. She is stopped only because Buffy and Xander delay her long enough that the re-mummification weakens her so that she can't overpower Xander, whom she is ultimately willing to kill for her own survival. Buffy sees something of herself here in the way Ampata was used by her people for their own survival while being denied any chance at a normal existence for all eternity.
Ted - the (potential) ultimate evil step-parent, insinuates himself into Buffy's life and then makes clear his intent to control her. If he can't control her then he intends to remove her from her life to make room for him. Buffy's instincts about him were quite accurate from the beginning but no one believed that she wasn't acting from jealousy. All assumed that her issues with him were simply because her mother was dating him. His drugging of all but her (only because she was too stubborn to eat his treats) gave her no one to talk to who would believe her after Ted threatened her. But when Buffy believed she had killed him, she cooperated with the police, told the truth to them. Ted's world was controlled and orderly with nothing and no one out of line. His speech was archaic, pure 1950's, as were his attitudes. Ted was Buffy's first confrontation with the possibility that she could kill a human with her Slayer strength out of nothing more than anger. That Ted turned out to be a robot could, however, explain why she was able to do it; perhaps she did 'recognize' his non-humanity.
The Bezoars were another very pervasive evil for humans. With the exception of Xander, whose paternal instincts left everything to be desired, and Buffy, whose Slayer speed and strength kept her safe, the entire school population, staff, students and visitors, were taken over by the baby bezoars and set to work to free the mother. Willow and Cordelia took Xander and Buffy out of action by attacking them unexpectedly. Giles infects Joyce. The bezoars appeared to have a form of collective consciousness in that everyone is often carrying out the same tasks, yet when necessary the mother bezoar is able to communicate specific instructions to individuals. The bezoars are intriguing in that they weren't of demonic origin, but were organic, possibly indigenous, creatures who may have been mutated by the energy of the Hellmouth, or not. In this case, it could be argued that the humans were just as evil from the viewpoint of the bezoars.
Der Kinderstaad, one of the more frightening monsters, had been encountered by Buffy when she was quite young and her cousin, Celia, was in the hospital. Buffy had even watched it kill, but didn't know what she was seeing. Since he is discernible only when the victims are most vulnerable, Buffy must put herself at risk in order to see and defeat the child-killer. It is not clear what kind of monster the child-killer is other than clearly predatory. He feeds on the life-force of his victims, and apparently had determined to take the course of least resistance in doing so, which was a wise choice on his part. Although, children are not his only victims: he also removes adults who stand in his way or are in a position to reduce his ready energy source. When he faces the Slayer, sick though she is, he faces a strength he had never faced before; she still has the ability to defeat and destroy him. Buffy is able to face and destroy an old enemy that had defeated her when she was a child because she couldn't see what was happening and couldn't understand. This allows her to avenge her cousin and remove the threat to other children.
The Amphibian Monsters were created when the swim team 'over-dosed' on a fish DNA steroids and metamorphosed into mammal/fish hybrids which can function both in and out of the water (thus, amphibians). The swimmers who used the most were the first to change, but if nothing had stopped the process eventually all of them would have transformed, including the newest member of the team, Xander. In the 'tadpole' stage they are changing beneath the human skin, then achieve their mature form by breaking out of the confining form through the skin. They are predators (the DNA used could also be considered predator) and when fully transformed have only the instincts of the new form. They are not actually defeated, but allowed to go into the ocean. While they are all male, it should not be assumed that this means they cannot reproduce, especially with the mystical energy of the Hellmouth involved in their existence. Trying to obtain the championship without truly winning it, subverting the process that should be necessary to achieve the goal, when weighed against the consequences is shown to be a far greater price than putting in the effort required to gain it legitimately.
POSSESSION
Eyghon the Sleepwalker who returns to those who once summoned him and then attempted to kill him, including Giles. Ethan Rayne is back once again, as one of the group who, with Giles (Ripper), summoned Eyghon. The three others in the small group, five in all, have been dealt with. Eyghon possesses their dead bodies long enough to get to the next victim but hadn't found a suitable permanent host. The demon attempts permanent possession of Jenny and is thwarted by the unique and most likely unprecedented method of allowing two demons to fight it out for possession of a host; Angel threatens fatal damage to the host body (Jenny) causing the demon to jump to the nearest dead body: Angel. Eyghon lost the battle to a well-entrenched vampiric demon who was "Just waitin' for a good fight." Eyghon crumbles into dust. He wasn't a match for the demon in Angel. Eyghon forces Giles to reveal more of his past and his nature than he wished, but allowed a valuable insight inot his character.
The ghosts of James and Grace haunted the halls of Sunnydale High. They weren't seen in current times until the revival of the event that coincided with their deaths: the Sadie Hawkins Dance. Once again, James and Grace are fated to play out their tragic night. Only this time, Buffy becomes involved. She 'sees' the real events in bits and pieces. Things begin to happen in the school that do not reflect the replaying of the murder/suicide. These happenings are of the sort that literally call for the intervention of the Slayer. It is actually not clear which of them is responsible for this. It is generally believed that James was responsible, but a case could be made for Grace doing this. It is Grace who wants to forgive James, to relieve his pain, to allow him to move on. For this to happen she needs the Slayer and the Vampire. She needs to block Willow's spell because binding James would only result in stasis. She surrounds the school with an impassable barrier (thus also preventing more innocent victims) that will allow only Buffy and Angel to pass. The roles are reversed. This is no longer an inevitable re-enactment. Buffy/James 'kills' Angel/Grace, but Angel cannot be killed by gunshot, thus freeing Grace to intervene at last and end the cycle. It is Buffy who recognizes why the two are still bound to the school, and in her comment that James' act does not deserve forgiveness, she reveals how she feels about herself in relation to Angel/Angelus. When James uses her as his representative and she experiences Grace's love and forgiveness and the release of the anger and hurt that tied them here, she is give a beginning to forgiving herself for Angelus, a realization that Angel would forgive her.
The Order of Taraka is a mix of demons and humans who are bounty hunters. They hire out as assassins and don't stop until the job is complete. If the ones originally assigned to the job fail, others simply come in their place until the task is successfully completed. They exhibit a complete disregard for anything other than completion of their mission. The demons involved in the Order are a much more sophisticated variety, far above see-kill-eat. The humans who join are also of a particular type; willing to hunt and kill other humans for a price, possibly just for the satisfaction of getting the job done. The rules are simple: do whatever it takes. The consequences are equally direct: if you succeed, you live, if you don't, you're already dead. For some the simplicity of this has it's attraction. It is not clear why they were called off, unless perhaps finances played into it. In the confrontations with the Order, we find Angel learning that Buffy has completely accepted his vampiric side, Buffy and Kendra working together with a common agenda, and Xander and Cordelia discovering that they don't exactly hate each other.
HUMANS
Chris Epps and Eric, the Doctors Frankenstein of Sunnydale, have revived Chris' brother Daryl and are now assembling a female companion for him from parts of dead girls. They encounter a problem however in the necessity of acquiring a head, with no fresh death in sight and time running out. Chris balks at
killing someone but Eric moves blithely along by showing Daryl pictures of Cordelia, Buffy and Willow for Daryl to pick his favorite. Chris is unable to carry out the abduction and assists Buffy in saving Cordelia. Eric, however, sees only his own agenda, which happens to coincide with Daryl's. He wants to create the girl of his/Daryl's dreams just to see if he can. In the end, we don't really know what happens to them except that Chris and Eric both survived. We find that while the two worked together on the same project with the same outcome in mind, their motivations were polar opposites: Chris did it out of love for his brother; Eric did it because he could, out of contempt for those who couldn't.
The Zeta Kappa Frat boys, and all their esteemed alumni, were a long-standing evil. For at least half a century they had consorted with the demon Machida to bring them fortune and power without effort. They were wealthy, charming and lethal. No conscience bothered any of them regarding what was necessary to continue their success. They corrupted generation after generation, each succeeding class indoctrinating the next. They show us how shallow and insubstantial these things are in the absence of any real effort; and also give Cordelia her start into becoming someone of more substance.
Ethan Rayne is more of an enigma. It is not only unclear exactly what power he is invoking (Janus the Roman God? Chaos?), but what his purpose is. He wreaks havoc among those who wear his costumes. They become what they are dressed as in mind and body. Their physical and mental abilities are completely altered. But Ethan remains in the back room of his store taking no advantage of the chaos he has brought forth, unless his purpose was to see what would happen. Being beaten into submission by Rupert (Ripper) Giles was not likely what he had in mind. In some ways this is some of the purest evil we've seen - bringing chaos forth just to see what it would do. When trying to avoid Eyghon, his motives are much clearer: remove the mark from himself and place it on someone else. This is an act of self-preservation by finding a substitute target, since Eyghon is drawn by the Mark, not by the bearer. In the ensuing chaos, Ethan, being no fool, runs. Ethan continues to give us insights into Giles' background and character that the self-effacing Watcher/librarian wouldn't ordinarily divulge.
Billy Fordham wanted to become a vampire so he won't completely die. To achieve this he was prepared to set up a group a innocent fools to be killed while he arranged that he alone would be turned. Ford was Buffy's crush in 5th grade and obviously a friend who knew her fairly well. He is both sympathetic and villainous at the same time. One can understand why he wants what he does, but not that he's willing to bring so many sacrificial lambs to the slaughter in order to gain it. It's not entirely clear why he didn't just have the blonde vampire turn him in return for not staking her, instead of just making her tell him where he could find the vampires lair. In allowing her to go free, he is also indirectly responsible for Drusilla's recovery, as it is the book she takes from the library that contains the ritual to restore Dru's strength. It may be that he's so drawn to the tradition that he has to have his ritual, must be turned by the leader, must have all the right things said. And in the end, he gets what he wants and the Slayer is waiting. Billy's case is particularly sad because we can understand his despair, his desire to have a life to live. What we, and Buffy, can't forgive is his willingness to have so many other die for him to survive.
Cain the hunter, hunted for sport and profit. Having been prohibited from hunting elephants he turned to an entirely unprotected species for which he found a lucrative market. He has no doubts about what he does; for him it's a job that satisfies him. He rationalizes killing the human aspect of the werewolf in several ways: only killing while it is in wolf form (although granted - no pelt in human form), killing the werewolf prevents it from making future kills (death penalty versus imprisonment), they are animals and therefore subject to his whims. He is not defeated in the end, nor does he learn anything (except maybe not to underestimate little girls); he simply has to take his predations to a different venue. Cain is a villain with no moral code, no ethics, no compassion, who hunts because he's good at it, with no regard for the rules unless they impact the market for his kills.
Coach Marin wants success so badly that he is willing to achieve it regardless of the cost. He has managed to produce a 'steroid' that will enhance his swim team's performance in the pool. He uses his boys as alpha test subjects, with or without their permission. When it becomes clear that there are 'serious side effects' he ignores them. As the boys metamorphose one by one, his only real concern is that he's having trouble fielding enough swimmers to have a competitive team. He still 'takes care' of his changed boys by feeding them and providing for other needs when possible. He has absolutely no conscience regarding his actions with the boys, or those he's willing to take to keep his activities unchallenged. He murders the school nurse, he tries to do so to Buffy, and is willing to take out Xander, but Xander is ready for him. He is finally killed by his own 'boys' when he swings at a rescued Buffy and falls into the water after she trips him; the amphibian monsters attack and kill him.
Willy is the stereotype of the show. Opportunist, sneak, squealer, stooge. He's always on the lookout for the best deal, and would cross, double-cross and triple-cross anyone for the right price. He professes his loyalty, exudes his fear, but both of these are only of the moment, and when the next chance comes by, the circumstances alter to fit it. He provides a hangout for the (H)ST's of Sunnydale, but doesn't exclude humans. The only rule at Willy's seems to be "don't do your fighting in here."
And of course, Principal Snyder, who just won't go away. He's more active this season, involving himself with Buffy the delinquent and her gang of ne'er-do-wells. He's more directly related to causing harm to others. In School Hard, it is at his instigation that the window is opened and one life lost. If he had not insisted that Buffy 'volunteer' for the Halloween safety program, she might have been able to prevent some of the damage caused. He encouraged Coach Marin to continue his enhancement program so he could brag at the principals' meetings and required Willow to give a passing grade to one of the swimmers so he would remain eligible. And not to forget his statement to the police when they arrest Buffy at the scene of Kendra's death, and his expelling of her in the final episode. It is this season when we learn of his purpose at the school and his involvement with the mayor. We learn that he, and the police, know about the Hellmouth.
And the other bads of this season in BBB and Phases - Buffy's friends, Oz, Xander, Amy, even Giles. In these episodes, the damage that was done was unintentional. In Oz's case it was, as much as can ever be, innocent damage. And only because he takes two whole days to figure out that the werewolf might be him, after his cousin Jordy, who doesn't like to be tickled, bit him. He tries to restrain himself for the third night but is unintentionally prevented by Willow. He then willingly submits to being caged for the safety of others during his change. Xander's case is different. He intends harm, just not the harm that results. Amy is brought into Xander's plan by blackmail, but what is the subject of the blackmail? Casual use of witchcraft for personal gain. Xander wants revenge. Thank the heavens there wasn't a male vengeance demon wandering around Sunnydale at the time. Amy submits to the blackmail rather than recognize that what she was doing, casual magic for her own benefit, was wrong. Amy also doesn't hesitate to use transformation, once successfully, once prevented, against those she saw as rivals. Giles was one of the group who summoned Eyghon and then created more problems by trying to keep the group out of it. If he had told Buffy what was happening, the group might have been more prepared when they were attacked in the library; if he had told them more about Ethan, Buffy might have had more caution in dealing with him. But to do so he would have had to reveal parts of his past that no longer fit with his perception of himself as he is now: the Watcher, the keeper of the knowledge, the sage.
The evil faced in season 2 is less black and white. This time, there are still the vampires, monsters, demons, possession and evil humans. But another layer is added. This time it's personal. Angel becomes Angelus; now we have a Big Bad whose motives are examined. Buffy and Angel are used to exorcise the HS ghosts and their personal relationship is reflected cruelly. Two schoolmates, one of whom is a friend of Willow's, attempt the murder of Cordelia to create a Bride of Frankenstein. Billy Fordham was a crush of Buffy's in fifth grade who is now willing to sacrifice others to ensure his longevity. Giles' past comes back to endanger them all when he is unwilling to share it. Ted is romancing her mother, and insinuating himself into her home life. The frat boys present themselves as friendly college boys who are interested in Cordelia and Buffy, neither of whom find this unlikely, then become dates from hell. Amy is a friend of theirs. Oz is beginning to develop a romance with Willow, and is, of them all, the one who most takes responsibility for himself. Xander betrayed them all with his desire for revenge on Cordelia. Willow and Cordelia appear to turn on Buffy and Xander when they are under the influence of the Bezoars. Most of the swim team, including someone she went out with, turned into monsters. Machida, Daryl Epps, the amphibian monsters and Eyghon were brought to Sunnydale through human machination. Even Buffy's mother is taken aback when she learns that Buffy is the Slayer and slow to adjust to the significance of the calling. The evil faced this season is most significant. It is not clear cut. It forces the Slayer and the Watcher as well as the Scoobies to reassess their vision of evil, since it now includes themselves, as well as demons who show humanity. In the end, Buffy is reft and bereft; not welcome at home, expelled from school; not knowing how Angel had returned, knowing only that she had sent him into hell. Again, the ultimate revenge for Angelus: no weapons, no friends, no hope. In the end, just Buffy.
Your feedback is welcomed!
[> Another excellent tour through the world of evil... -- cjl, 07:21:09 06/10/02 Mon
Two comments: one, summarizing all her evil deeds in one place gives me a new appreciation of Drusilla; and two--Angelus definitely did "go after" Xander. In "BB&B" he yanked him out of Buffy's bedroom window and was going to chow down until the spell-struck Drusilla intervened. He enjoyed getting in Xander's face, too; the confrontation outside Buffy's hospital room in "Killed By Death" showed Angelus very much aware of Xander's feelings for Buffy and also showed how much he enjoyed reminding Xander how these feelings were never returned.
[> [> Re: Another excellent tour through the world of evil... -- LittleBit, 08:13:43 06/10/02 Mon
You're right about his attack on Xander in BBB (for some reason I keep forgetting that the guys weren't under the spell). While he does attack Xander, he initially wants to know where Buffy is, then realizes that Xander is the psychologically better victim for Buffy's valentine present. He never actually goes looking for Xander the way he does Buffy and Willow, which may be whay I left it out (along with the BBB mental block). ;-)
[> so enjoying your posts! Are these being collected somewhere? -- ponygirl, 07:39:04 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Only here and on my hard drive! ;) -- LittleBit, 08:23:05 06/10/02 Mon
[> Great Evaluation, but what's Pogo? -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:43:01 06/10/02 Mon
I like these posts you're putting up. You are right in how simple the evil in Season 1 is, and how it grows more complex with time. I've also noticed that, as the show goes on, vampires become less common and demon's more so.
But I'm still wondering: WHAT'S POGO?
[> [> Re: Great Evaluation, but what's Pogo? -- LittleBit, 08:49:03 06/10/02 Mon
Pogo was a comic strip written by Walt Kelly. The most famous and fairly oft-quoted line was: "We have met the enemy and he is us." A good summing up of season 6.
Want to play a game? -- Ronia, 07:37:02 06/10/02 Mon
This is not all my idea, to be honest I came here expecting this to be posted already. However, it isn't. So I'll just have to do it myself.
We (some chat folk and I ) thought it would be fun to while away the summer boredom with a Buffy inspired game. It goes like this, people post haiku's that are specific to episodes of buffy and angel. Then everyone else get's to try and guess which episode it is from.
For example: Knife through father's hand/that should do the trick for her/ my dark angel love...
Answer: what's my line 2
We tested it to be sure that it was fun...feeling the creative juices flowing? Get your game face on and post..be sure to try your Buffy/Angel trivia knowledge by answering all the haiku's so this thread will have a long and happy life. Enjoy!
[> Re: Yes, please! -- LittleBit, 07:50:58 06/10/02 Mon
Ronia - like you I couldn't get on the board yesterday (I think Voy's server was down) or it would have gone up. I even have a (painful) startup haiku for the game:
hiatus is here
episode summary game
poems like sneezes
(ow!)
Anyway: here's one from me:
eternally bound
love and guilt will hold us close
reversal frees us
[> [> The answer is... -- Belladonna, 08:24:14 06/10/02 Mon
"I Only Have Eyes for You." Right? :)
[> [> [> Re: The answer is... (don't look if you don;t want to know!) -- LittleBit, 08:30:24 06/10/02 Mon
Right! :)
[> Re: Haiku game -- Brian, 07:53:13 06/10/02 Mon
Sulfer smell makes a stink.
Scrambled friends betray, can't think.
Buffy axes the offending link.
[> [> Re: Haiku game -- Ronia, 08:27:34 06/10/02 Mon
Bad eggs?
[> [> [> Re: Haiku game - Ronia, right you are -- Brian, 09:08:46 06/10/02 Mon
[> A very poor attempt at poetry. -- JCC, 07:56:16 06/10/02 Mon
feeling down and out,
chasing when you get a poke,
into a new world.
There it is: my ridiculous attempt at a haiku. Go on, guess. Answer is below.
Normal Again.
[> [> Re: A very poor attempt at poetry. -- Ronia, 08:25:36 06/10/02 Mon
whoops, you aren't supposed to post the answer...I must have written my post poorly...the answer's are supposed to be guesses from other posters..we will have awards for the best haiku's. We haven't figured out what the categories will be yet..so shush..no giving answers away! ;-D
[> Here's a nice easy one... -- GreatRewards, 08:28:00 06/10/02 Mon
Vamp Willow took charge
Gang did terrorize the Bronze
Willow said "Bored now."
[> [> Re: Here's a nice easy one... -- Ronia, 08:31:43 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: The wish?
[> [> Re: Here's a nice easy one... -- Deeva, 08:39:01 06/10/02 Mon
Doppelgangland! Right?!?!
[> [> [> Correct! -- GreatRewards, 08:42:05 06/10/02 Mon
[> Re: Haiku game -- LittleBit, 08:39:31 06/10/02 Mon
and one more:
that which was is now
strength is forged in pain and grief
the burden too great
[> [> Re: Haiku game -- Ronia, 08:42:13 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: The weight of the world? Good one LB! Really a stumper!
[> [> [> Re: Haiku game -- LittleBit, 08:52:11 06/10/02 Mon
Not The Weight of the World (and this is less obscure than my first version, lol :))
[> [> Re: Haiku game -- Ete, 09:32:24 06/10/02 Mon
Becoming ?
[> [> [> Re: Haiku game -- LittleBit, 09:59:29 06/10/02 Mon
part two, :)
[> Here's another one. -- GreatRewards, 08:43:24 06/10/02 Mon
Buffy getting laid
House tries to kill Buffy's friends
Buff can't get enough!
[> [> Where the Wild Things Are -- Deeva, 09:06:11 06/10/02 Mon
[> And Another. -- GreatRewards, 08:50:07 06/10/02 Mon
Scoobies save the world.
Xander saves the Scooby Gang.
"I Like the quiet."
[> [> Re: And Another. -- Ronia, 09:01:53 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: The Zeppo?
[> [> [> correct. -- GreatRewards, 09:11:53 06/10/02 Mon
[> OK. I'll bite. Here's my paltry offering. -- Deeva, 09:03:20 06/10/02 Mon
It's been awhile since I've done this, the last time was elementary school, must've been 8 years old at the time. I think it's an easy one to guess.
Hands held reverence
Consequences uttered first
Existing and not
What say you? Major suckage or not half bad?
[> [> Very good! -- Rob, 09:10:06 06/10/02 Mon
Umm..."Blood Ties"?
Rob
[> [> [> Thanks Rob! And take another guess. -- Deeva ;o), 09:11:34 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> No Place Like Home? -- GreatRewards, 09:29:42 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Nope. OK, I guess I was a mite cryptic. Here's clue: It's not Season 5. -- Deeva, 09:34:22 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> I Know! I know! -- Isabel, 06:07:51 06/11/02 Tue
Primeval!!!
[> [> [> [> [> Oh Poop! Not only didn't I see the answer below, I got it wrong. :( -- Isabel, 06:12:13 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> That's ok. -- Deeva, 10:34:32 06/11/02 Tue
It was a hard thread to follow. But thanks for joining in on the fun! Heh-heh you said poop!
[> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- Brian, 09:33:17 06/10/02 Mon
New world, but no escape.
New friends so stunned they must gape.
One dies with pierced nape.
Deep, dark, ancient lair.
Stirs one to rise, so very rare.
Stopped by Buffy's flair.
[> [> [> The Wish? -- Deeva, 09:37:48 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> Re: The Wish? Nope -- Brian, 09:53:00 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- Ronia, 09:54:19 06/10/02 Mon
Prophecy girl?
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- LittleBit, 09:55:10 06/10/02 Mon
Dopplegangland & Band Candy?
[> [> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering Nope & Nope -- Brian, 09:59:29 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- LittleBit, 10:02:58 06/10/02 Mon
Welcome to the Hellmouth & Prophecy Girl?
[> [> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering - LittleBit, you're half way there -- Brian, 10:04:26 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit, you're half way there - Yay 1/2me! one more try... -- LittleBit, 10:17:08 06/10/02 Mon
The Harvest & Prophecy Girl?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit, you're half way there - wrong half -- Brian, 11:12:58 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit, you're half way there - wrong half LOL!!! once more -- LittleBit, 12:19:38 06/10/02 Mon
Welcome to the Hellmouth & the Harvest?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit - You score! -- Brian, 12:26:41 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- SugarTherapy, 11:41:20 06/10/02 Mon
Welcome to the Hellmouth & The Harvest!
[> [> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering - Yup! -- Brian, 12:28:29 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Umm...Becoming? -- Rob, 09:39:01 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Primeval? -- LittleBit, 09:39:11 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> It's not either of those seasons, Rob & LB. -- Deeva, 09:44:46 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> Grr aargh! I'm sooo close to giving up!! Is it "After Life"? -- Rob, 09:50:44 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> WINNER!!!! See, aren't you glad you didn't give up? I still gotta figure your's out. -- Deeva, 10:14:12 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yay!!! :oD :oD Oh, and if you want a little clue for mine... -- Rob, 10:19:38 06/10/02 Mon
It's from one of the first three seasons.
Oh, and it's not as cryptic as it sounds...It's actually quite literal. I just wrote it in a way that it sounds cryptic. If that makes sense.
Rob
[> [> Amends -- LittleBit, 09:52:36 06/10/02 Mon
[> My turn! -- Rob, 09:17:11 06/10/02 Mon
Darkness lurks beneath;
Uncharacteristically
Dressed; undead but not.
Any guesses?
Rob
[> [> Oooh, this was hard. -- Deeva, 09:30:10 06/10/02 Mon
Umm...Prophesy Girl?
[> [> [> Nope! And I'm still trying to figure yours out!! -- Rob, 09:33:32 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: My turn! -- LittleBit, 10:21:34 06/10/02 Mon
Halloween?
[> [> [> Yup, YOU'RE RIGHT!! -- Rob, 10:26:07 06/10/02 Mon
It's all about Willow...the "darkness lurks beneath"
And then she's "uncharacteristically dressed"...in the skanky clothes.
And she's undead, as a ghost, but she's not really a ghost...thus "undead but not".
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: Yay me! And another one... -- LittleBit, 10:31:45 06/10/02 Mon
containing the rage
this is not a fairy tale
soothe the savage breast
[> [> [> [> [> Beauty and the Beasts? -- Rahael, 10:47:39 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Beauty and the Beasts? -- LittleBit, 11:06:37 06/10/02 Mon
Yes!!! :D
[> Here'a a HARD one.. -- GreatRewards, 10:07:30 06/10/02 Mon
Four becoming one.
Power beyond all power.
'First' man is now dead.
[> [> Primeaval -- Rahael, 10:14:13 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> hmm.... guess it wasn't so hard, after all. CORRECT! -- GreatRewards, 10:28:33 06/10/02 Mon
[> OK. This one's either gonna be real HARD or real EASY! -- GreatRewards, 10:44:45 06/10/02 Mon
Willow asks of Buffy:
"Of the two people here, which
is the boss of me?"
[> [> Wrecked? -- Rob, 10:50:04 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Choices -- Rahael, 10:50:25 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Well done! Correct! -- GreatRewards, 11:48:39 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Two to Go? -- Deeva, 11:03:05 06/10/02 Mon
[> I think this one's gonna be hard... -- Rob, 10:57:37 06/10/02 Mon
Pretty songs can lead
To Hell. Once they're over, the
Darkness captures all.
Rob
[> [> HINT: It's not OMWF -- Rob, 10:58:40 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Here's another -- JCC, 11:09:45 06/10/02 Mon
Betraying Slayer,
a dark shroud lights the mansion,
a fake evil vamp.
[> [> [> [> Re: Here's another -- Rahael, 11:15:59 06/10/02 Mon
Enemies
[> [> [> [> Buffy vs. Dracula -- Ete, 00:05:21 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Tabula Rasa? -- Deeva, 11:04:41 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Here's 3. See can you guess them. -- JCC, 11:28:49 06/10/02 Mon
1)
Not to wake nor sleep,
A friend from another time,
or an enemy.
2)- (This could be taken as 1 of 2 episodes)
A human demon,
changed in a horrible time,
abandoned and found.
3)
One perfect moment,
ruined by caring too much,
It was not too late
[> [> [> [> Here is the answer to my 3 haikus above -- JCC, 12:10:58 06/10/02 Mon
Seeing as no ones guessing
1)
Not to wake nor sleep,
A friend from another time,
or an enemy.
2)- (This could be taken as 1 of 2 episodes)
A human demon,
changed in a horrible time,
abandoned and found.
3)
One perfect moment,
ruined by caring too much,
It was not too late
1Restless
2Entropy or hells bells
3The Prom
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Here is the answer to my 3 haikus above -- Deeva, 12:14:22 06/10/02 Mon
I couldn't even begin to guess which one's they were! Very good.
[> [> [> Nope...but I can see where you're going with that. It's not from the 6th season. -- Rob, 11:33:27 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> The answer to my above haiku is... -- Rob, 12:47:43 06/10/02 Mon
Hush.
"Pretty songs can lead to Hell."--that refers to the song the girl sings in Buffy's dream at the beginning: "Can't call for Mom/Can't say a word/You're gonna die screaming, but you won't be heard..."
"Once they're over,/Darkness captures all..."
After the song (and by implications, all the sounds) are done, the darkness captures people, in the form of the Gentlemen.
I tried to be deliberately misleading with the "singing" reference. Hope it wasn't too hard!
Rob
[> [> [> VERY misleading. My boss was wondering what I was pondering over! -- Deeva, 12:58:12 06/10/02 Mon
[> Request: Please don't put guesses in subject line? -- snuffynelson, 11:13:40 06/10/02 Mon
This game is wonderful, but I already know the answer before I look at the haiku...
[> My try #2! -- Deeva, 11:22:29 06/10/02 Mon
Bicker like children
Grieve over the one who left her
Unexpected love looms
Guys, I'm like getting zero work done. This is a way cool game!
[> [> Re: My try #2! -- Jane's Addiction, 11:29:42 06/10/02 Mon
Hmmm ... "Something Blue"?
[> [> [> That's it! -- Deeva, 11:37:55 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: My try #2! -- Ronia, 11:31:06 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: Triangle?
[> Haiku for you! -- Deeva, 11:50:48 06/10/02 Mon
Three are the loves
Two are the keys to fame
One burns bright
[> [> No takers? Shall I answer it? -- Deeva, 12:59:52 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: No takers? Shall I answer it? -- Ronia, 13:11:37 06/10/02 Mon
No! not yet...I'm just busy, or I'd be on it...the hard ones are the most fun...
[> [> [> [> Aww, thanks Ronia. I'll wait. -- Deeva, 14:04:57 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: No takers? Shall I answer it? -- Rahael with a little help from Neaux, 15:49:34 06/10/02 Mon
"Fool for Love"
[> [> [> [> That's it! Yay! -- Deeva, 16:45:56 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Wow, very good one ! -- Ete, 00:09:47 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Is it... -- Rob, 13:17:11 06/10/02 Mon
...Superstar?
Rob
[> [> [> Nope. -- Deeva, 14:03:09 06/10/02 Mon
[> Haikus scare me. Here's a dirty limerick -- neaux, 11:58:31 06/10/02 Mon
There once was a phantom named Dennis,
Who was well known for spying Cordy's Paris, Milan and Venice,
Not to be misconstrued as a perv.
He was well liked for his serve,
and has not been seen in a red hot minute.
[> [> Very dirty non-Buffy-related limerick -- Rob, 12:04:30 06/10/02 Mon
There once was an odious brute
Who made love in his Sunday-best suit.
The result, as you'd guess,
Was a wet, sticky mess,
And a very chafed maiden to boot.
:P
Rob
[> [> Re: Haikus scare me. Here's a dirty limerick -- Ronia, 12:05:59 06/10/02 Mon
No limericks 'till St. Patricks day! We can do a limerick version of the game then if you want. Is it a date? ;-D
[> [> [> new haiku -- Ronia, 12:21:14 06/10/02 Mon
Run fast little girl
He has been a red herring
Late! They are fallen
[> [> [> [> Re: new haiku ... and one for you -- LittleBit, 12:25:52 06/10/02 Mon
Becoming part 1?
the new horizon
challenges and adventure
fear paralyzes
[> [> [> [> [> Re: new haiku ... and one for you -- Ronia, 12:35:49 06/10/02 Mon
You are correct!
Now I have to work
I really would rather shirk
Maybe chat tonight?
(Ronia still may have to lurk.)
[> [> [> Back to Haiku -- Brian, 12:25:19 06/10/02 Mon
Formal Frenzy bad.
Scoobies try to go cool rad.
Now is Buffy glad.
[> [> [> [> Another cryptic haiku -- JCC, 12:34:36 06/10/02 Mon
I'm really getting in to this.
A blond mystery,
Revelations close to home,
To protect the one.
Maybe Liq could put all the haiku's we've done on the Existential Scoobies site. There is some good ones in the list.
[> [> [> [> [> Go money Go! -- Ronia, 12:55:06 06/10/02 Mon
Envisioning a commercial version of this game!
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another cryptic haiku -- Jane's Addiction, 16:02:03 06/10/02 Mon
"No Place Like Home"?
[> [> [> [> [> I agree, there are some very good ones here. -- Deeva, 21:26:54 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> Re: Back to Haiku -- SugarTherapy, 13:35:30 06/10/02 Mon
The Prom?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Back to Haiku - You got it in one! -- Brian, 13:53:48 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- Brian, 14:05:33 06/10/02 Mon
No one takes the blame;
Life is hard, broken, and lame.
Buffy speaks her name.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! and another -- JCC, 14:26:12 06/10/02 Mon
Consequences??
The clowns up to tricks,
A missing link is nowhere,
and up to mischief.
Well?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! and another - Nope! -- Brian, 14:41:50 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- Deeva, 14:48:02 06/10/02 Mon
Tabula Rasa?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- Rahael, 14:56:16 06/10/02 Mon
Bargaining Part II
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- redcat, 17:27:02 06/10/02 Mon
"Anne" -?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! - Redcat, you're a winner! -- Brian, 19:08:50 06/10/02 Mon
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- collinwood, 14:29:07 06/10/02 Mon
Since I was in the original chat, I thought I should post my (easy to guess) haiku.
1)Leperous hobbits serve
Mimosas in the tub
To a skanky goddess
2)Kiss beneath the stairs
Why is this happening now?
Who am I to her?
3)Snake eats the weasel
Darkness and chaos prevail
Fire cleanses the scene
(collinwood)
P.S. LittleBit and Ronia...thanks for getting this started. It is fun!
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Ronia, 14:49:14 06/10/02 Mon
Don't forget Julia and Agent, and Vickie...is that everyone?
[> [> Not as easy as you'd think! -- GreatRewards, 15:28:52 06/10/02 Mon
1) Tough Love
2) Hmmm... so many kissing scenes... which one... Tabula Rasa?
3) Graduation Day (part 2)
[> [> [> Re: Not as easy as you'd think! -- collinwood, 17:34:15 06/10/02 Mon
You got it in one, Great Rewards!
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- SugarTherapy, 16:07:53 06/10/02 Mon
is #2 Older & Far Away?
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Deeva, 16:51:38 06/10/02 Mon
1. Dunno
2. Tabula Rasa
3. Graduation pt 2
[> Re: Simple Haiku -- cat, 14:51:59 06/10/02 Mon
A diffrent slayer.
Out of history's cold dead past.
Wreaks havoc to feel.
[> [> Re: Simple Haiku -- rc, 19:37:59 06/10/02 Mon
Primeval - ?
[> [> [> Re: Simple Haiku -- Ete, 12:38:07 06/11/02 Tue
Or Restless ?
[> OK here's another one. -- Deeva, 14:53:45 06/10/02 Mon
Parting at the steps
At the heartfelt confession
Leap of love and trust
This is becoming addictive! I should stop! Mmmm...nah!
[> [> Can you give a hint? Wink wink. -- Rob, 22:00:22 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> The hint is in the third line! *nudge, nudge. wink, wink* -- Deeva ;o), 08:40:42 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re: The hint is in the third line! *nudge, nudge. wink, wink* -- LittleBit, 09:10:00 06/11/02 Tue
The Gift
[> [> [> [> [> Indeed it is, LittleBit! -- Deeva, 09:40:06 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: OK here's another one. -- Ete, 00:18:58 06/11/02 Tue
OMWF ?
[> [> Re: OK here's another one. -- Brian, 04:09:58 06/11/02 Tue
Becomming part 1
[> here are my efforts -- julia, 16:57:26 06/10/02 Mon
willow flayed warren
she's off the wagon again
bad willow bad witch
spike is so cool and
i mean the girl is hot too
andrew butt monkey
black leather coat swirls
cigarette cherry glows bright
out for a walk bitch
the sky is falling
another apocolypse
tuesday chez buffy
[> [> Re: here are my efforts -- rc, 19:45:22 06/10/02 Mon
Grave
Entropy
I can SEE Spike saying that line as he counts teh words off on his fingers under B's front yard tree, but can't think of thne ep name......
OMWF
[> [> [> oops! -- rc, 20:06:13 06/10/02 Mon
Two to Go (not Grave)
Entropy
same still-un-named ep as before
OMWF
[> [> [> [> No Place Like Home :) -- Ete, 00:20:23 06/11/02 Tue
[> I wanna play too! -- O'Cailleagh, 18:19:37 06/10/02 Mon
Okay, so I've never written a haiku before and am not at all familiar with them, but it looks fun! (I am, however, known for my Extremely Bad Poetry...its a talent!)
'a scary amount of computer sessions
could this lead to their possession?
(for me this ep's a big obsession!)'
Not especially haiku-y, but it popped into my head all sudden like.......
[> [> Re: I wanna play too! -- Rob, 18:23:59 06/10/02 Mon
I Robot, You Jane?
Rob
[> [> Re: I wanna play too! -- Ronia, 18:38:55 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: I robot, you jane?
[> [> [> yep, both right! -- O'Cailleagh, 06:49:40 06/11/02 Tue
[> This IS addictive! Here's my latest contribution... -- Rob, 22:08:40 06/10/02 Mon
The fight is won, but
a heart's split in twain. Alas,
no hugs and puppies!
Rob
[> [> Re: This IS addictive! Here's my latest contribution... -- Ronia, 22:32:35 06/10/02 Mon
there are a few this could apply to..hmmm
1) becomming 2
2) OMWF
[> [> Re: This IS addictive! Here's my latest contribution... -- Deeva, 08:52:51 06/11/02 Tue
Graduation 2?
Completely addictive! Really must stop as this going on day 2 now. It's a good thing that work is slow right now.
[> [> [> It could work for a bunch of eps, I guess, but the one I was referring to... -- Rob, 09:14:57 06/11/02 Tue
...was "Becoming II."
Rob
[> More for the ATPo board than Buffy eps, but the other chatters seemed to like this ... :-) -- OnM, 22:50:03 06/10/02 Mon
... so here it be:
Keyboard life as if / Philosophy were raindrops / Electronic id
*
[> my try at haïku -- Ete, 00:57:41 06/11/02 Tue
#1
face to face meeting
with one long forgotten
leads to change of name
#2
To chose between
One blind of insight and
One blind of mind
#3
Magic to break or
Magic to bring together
- Heartbreak free for all
#4
This sorceror may
fulfill your wish of
Being young again
#5
Look into my eyes
and if I taugh you well
know what is my name
[> [> My guesses -- Isabel, 06:36:41 06/11/02 Tue
1) Surprise
2) Fool For Love?
3) Once more with Feeling? (I had thought B,B&B but it doesn't quite fit)
4) Band Candy (Oh, darnit! there's another one that fits too!)
5) Homecoming?
These are terrible guesses. :(
[> [> [> You're right for number 4 (not terrible at all!) -- Ete, 06:57:47 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> more haïkus -- Ete, 07:26:46 06/11/02 Tue
#5
Wouldn't threaten her
were she a lonely one
yet she asks for it
#6
Secrets and shadows,
Vamp and Watcher want the hand
which one should she trust ?
#7
Four tries for nothing
everyone think they know her
better than herself
#8
In the big house
Mummy is recieving a guest
who's very hungry
[> [> [> [> Re: more haïkus -- Deeva, 08:47:42 06/11/02 Tue
I can only guess at #6, Revelations and #7, Something Blue?
[> [> [> [> [> Right for #6, wrong for #7 :) -- Ete, 09:09:23 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re: more haïkus -- LittleBit, 09:14:36 06/11/02 Tue
Still working on 1 & 7, but here's my guesses at the others:
2 - Normal Again
3 - Something Blue
4 - Band Candy
5a - A New Man
5b - Lie to Me
6 - Revelations
8 - Angel
[> [> [> [> [> Results -- Ete, 09:21:40 06/11/02 Tue
2 - Normal Again
> Nope
3 - Something Blue
> Nope
4 - Band Candy
> Yeap
5a - A New Man
> Yeap
5b - Lie to Me
> Yeap
6 - Revelations
> Yeap
8 - Angel
> Nope
[> Now for something slightly different... -- Isabel, 06:38:39 06/11/02 Tue
Cordy's moving woes
Not Diet
"You got peanut butter on the sheets."
[> [> Re: Now for something slightly different... -- O'Cailleagh, 06:51:29 06/11/02 Tue
Ooh! Ooh! Room with a View!
[> [> [> Bingo! :) -- Isabel, 11:50:19 06/11/02 Tue
[> Haiku (Bless you!!) -- JCC, 08:32:30 06/11/02 Tue
A fallen big bad ,
who is in love with his flame,
joins to drive sire mad.
[> [> Re: Haiku (Bless you!!) -- Ete, 08:42:53 06/11/02 Tue
Lovers' walk ?
[> And now for something completely different...NOT! -- Rob, 09:20:16 06/11/02 Tue
Trapped in a nightmare
Of sheer fluffy white terror.
Translate the caption!
Rob
[> [> Re: And now for something completely different...NOT! -- d'Herblay, 09:25:47 06/11/02 Tue
"Fear Itself."
[> [> [> Yes, indeedy do! -- Rob, 09:27:51 06/11/02 Tue
[> Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:21:32 06/11/02 Tue
...I thought the board might like a try at it:
primitive urges
primal desires unbound
run their course through them
[> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Rahael, 09:27:07 06/11/02 Tue
Beer Bad?
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:31:19 06/11/02 Tue
'tisn't Beer Bad
[> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Ete, 09:28:42 06/11/02 Tue
The Pack ?
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:33:41 06/11/02 Tue
'tisn't The Pack
[> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Rob, 09:29:15 06/11/02 Tue
Beer Bad?
Where the Wild Things Are?
Graduation Day II?
Wild at Heart?
Rob
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:35:33 06/11/02 Tue
Rob...it's one of the above! ;)
[> [> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Rob, 09:36:25 06/11/02 Tue
Wild at Heart?
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Yes! Yay you!! -- LittleBit, 09:37:28 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yay me!! ;o) -- Rob, 09:38:34 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- JCC, 09:42:03 06/11/02 Tue
The "I" in team?
[> [> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:46:24 06/11/02 Tue
Not The I in Team
[> [> You guys do this in chat? -- Deeva, 09:53:56 06/11/02 Tue
How is that even possible? It's challenging enough trying to think of what the haiku might be but with almost zero time to ponder. That's..wow...crazy. ;o)
[> [> [> Re: That's..wow...crazy. ;o)...Hmmm...so descriptive!! lol ;) -- LittleBit, 10:00:55 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> I was going for an Oz-esque laconic-thing. Sucessful, no? -- Deeva, 10:31:54 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sucessful, no? huh [almost an expression] -- LittleBit, 11:19:26 06/11/02 Tue
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- Rob, 09:35:13 06/11/02 Tue
Searing pain courses
through innocent hands. Only
a shell remains now.
Rob
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- LittleBit, 09:39:29 06/11/02 Tue
Tough Love
[> [> [> Yup! -- Rob, 10:01:26 06/11/02 Tue
[> this IS addicting -- Ete, 09:44:28 06/11/02 Tue
Thirsday, say welcome
Friday, hide and seek but on
saturday, nothing left !
[> [> Re: this IS addicting -- LittleBit, 10:09:20 06/11/02 Tue
The Freshman?
[> [> [> no, try again :) -- Ete, 10:25:10 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: this IS addicting -- Rob, 11:48:48 06/11/02 Tue
Is it "Anne"?
Rob
[> [> [> nah. try again ! -- Ete, 11:58:18 06/11/02 Tue
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- Deeva, 09:50:18 06/11/02 Tue
Dark bound in tribute
Wickedness lands in the depot
Light bound for amour
[> [> Is it... -- Rob, 10:09:11 06/11/02 Tue
Surprise?
Rob
[> [> [> Nope. -- Deeva, 10:29:57 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Ronia, 10:35:30 06/11/02 Tue
Crush?
[> [> [> Ding, ding, ding!!!! Come on down, Ronia! Let's play "The Haiku Is Right!!!!" -- Deeva, 10:39:35 06/11/02 Tue
[> Not too hard... -- LittleBit, 10:07:01 06/11/02 Tue
..but fun to put together:
ev'rything's switching
someone's come to change it all
outside to inside
[> [> Re: Not too hard... -- Ete, 10:08:08 06/11/02 Tue
Halloween ?
[> [> [> Re: Not too hard... -- LittleBit, 10:11:50 06/11/02 Tue
Yes --- with quotes directly from Drusilla! ;)
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- Rob, 11:26:00 06/11/02 Tue
Little Miss Muffet's
Breaths are silenced again and
Again; again and...
Rob
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- LittleBit, 11:38:59 06/11/02 Tue
Graduation part 2?
[> [> [> Nuh-uh! -- Rob, 11:45:44 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Ete, 11:59:31 06/11/02 Tue
Listening to fear
[> [> [> Nope! Try again! -- Rob, 12:16:27 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Deeva, 12:19:18 06/11/02 Tue
Restless
[> [> [> No! Maybe this one's harder than I thought...Here are some hints: -- Rob, 12:34:14 06/11/02 Tue
1) There are more than two words in the title of the episode.
2) Focus on the "Little Miss Muffet" (and who "Little Miss Muffet" is), and the "again and again" part.
Rob
[> HAIKU THREAD RESTARTED above to leave some room -- LittleBit, 12:41:51 06/11/02 Tue
The unanswered ones are listed inside it.
Buffy and her special episodes (what will next years be?) -- dingoes_ate_me, 08:53:20 06/10/02 Mon
ok, i was just thinking that seing as buffy has had special episodes in the past, ok so only really two; these being HUSH S4 and ONCE MORE WITH FEELING S6.
and if next year is the last, then they have to do at least one more, but what i was trying to figure out what could top a silent, or a musical episode?
a backwards episode?
a black and white episode?
what do you all think a cool 'special' episode would be?
[> Re: Buffy and special episodes Poss.Spoiler for S7 -- Deeva, 09:10:05 06/10/02 Mon
I've read somewhere that they might be learning to speak backwards (or maybe that's just a character that will) a la Twin Peaks. But I think it's too early to really say.
[> [> Re: Buffy and special episodes Poss.Spoiler for S7 -- pr10n, 09:38:01 06/10/02 Mon
Coolest to me: Combine live action with animation. Enter the Cartoonage!
Also leads in to the animated series. Simpsons homage! "Who Framed William the Bloody?" Stop me, I'm roasting...
[> [> [> They did that on "Farscape" this year... -- Rob, 11:00:33 06/10/02 Mon
...but I've heard "Farscape"s doing a musical this year. So, "Buffy" can copy their cartoon idea, since they're doing a musical!
Rob
[> [> [> [> I saw that ep!!!!!!! -- VampRiley, 11:24:38 06/10/02 Mon
Hi-larious! Got it on tape, too.
VR
[> [> [> [> [> Me too! It's one of my favorites. :oD -- Rob, 11:31:05 06/10/02 Mon
I especially loved the Aeryn parts. Aeryn as Jessica Rabbit/Marilyn Monroe/etc. Not to mention the Wile E. Coyote/Road Runner stuff with D'Argo and Crichton, and the cartoon Scorpy! ROFLMAO!
Rob
[> Re: Buffy and her special episodes (what will next years be?) -- GreatRewards, 09:55:15 06/10/02 Mon
Ahhh, a backwards episode! Ala Memento (awesome movie, for those who haven't rented it yet!).
I would pay MONEY to see THAT episode!
[> [> Re: Buffy and her special episodes (what will next years be?) -- Brian, 10:02:30 06/10/02 Mon
How about one where all their "talents" get switched to one another. ie. Anya the Slayer
[> [> [> Oh that sounds cool! -- SugarTherapy, 11:29:02 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> BtVD - Buffy, the Vengence Demon? Hmm. -- VampRiley, 11:35:49 06/10/02 Mon
She's running the Magick Box and praises capitalism.
Willow becomes a contruction worker.
Xander becomes a witch.
Spike becomes a ghost.
GhostTara becomes a souled vamp.
This could be where Giles visits. He could have lost most of his Watcher knowledge and magick he gained from the Devon coven, if they haven't taken it back, and has only very limited combat training.
Dawn becomes a magick wielding, ex-Watcher and she feel rather euphoric from the sudden onset of knowledge and power.
Hmm.
Yes, there is more than just skills changing, but I'm bored. Summer school is boring. I needed a break.
VR
[> [> I don't think it's going to be "backwards" a la "Memento" -- cjl, 10:05:54 06/10/02 Mon
I think it's going to be "backwards" a la the dream sequences in Twin Peaks--as if the events on screen were taking place inside a mirror.
[> How about... -- Rob, 11:02:13 06/10/02 Mon
...An episode COMPLETELY in rhyme? The characters find themselves incapable of speaking in anything but rhyme. That could be very funny...and be a great challenge for the writers.
Rob
[> [> Re: How about... -- Deeva, 11:27:52 06/10/02 Mon
That would be an awesome thing! And I think that all those Shakespeare readings that the cast used to do at Joss' would be an indication that Joss likes good ol' Will. Iambic pentameter and couplets, here we go.
[> [> [> Re: How about... -- Aud, 11:30:20 06/10/02 Mon
We should mail all these to ME lol
[> [> [> Re: How about... -- kitkat, 12:31:10 06/10/02 Mon
That was suggested to James Marsters in an interview in this month's SFX. He thought it was a great idea:
'Oh, yeah, that would be fun! Where everyone started speaking in the rhyming scheme Shakespeare chose to write in, which is ten syllables; the accent's going soft-hard, soft-hard, soft-hard - like a heartbeat...That would be fabulous, and nobody would be better at writing that than Joss'.
He himself suggests that they 'walk on their hands for an entire episode'. Hmmmm.
[> [> [> [> Really? Wow, and I thought I was the first to come up with it... -- Rob, 22:10:42 06/10/02 Mon
Hope they actually do it. That would be awesome!
Also, one area they've never covered on BtVS, although they have done alternate universes, is time travel. I think a time travel ep could be amazing.
Rob
[> [> Re: How about... -- skpe, 06:57:59 06/11/02 Tue
How about a comedy ep like in Don Quixote where all the comedic styles are interwoven. Slapstick on top of situational on top of social commentary. They say that comedy is the hardest to write and the toughest to perform so it would give the writers and cast a stretch
[> What Makes Hush a "special" episode? -- Vegeta, 11:50:28 06/10/02 Mon
Besides the fact that it rules!!!
[> [> Everything. -- VR, 11:52:25 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: What Makes Hush a "special" episode? -- Rob, 12:09:08 06/10/02 Mon
The use of a non-conventional storytelling/filmmaking device...or at least the use of an old filmmaking device (silent film) in the modern medium...thus, an unusual context. They managed to pull off almost an entire episode of complete silence, and still managed to make it totally compelling and interesting to the point that the non-speaking didn't even matter! I also love the end, where, when Riley and Buffy can finally speak to each other, they can't think of the right words to say...so they just sit in silence.
Another "special" episode I'd add to the list would be "The Body," due to the lack of a background soundtrack, and the four acts, each one in mostly "real-time." And, of course, the overall lack of the supernatural, until the end, when the "fantasy deadness" of the vampire is meant to contrast with the reality of Joyce's death.
Rob
[> Victorian Buffy -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:08:18 06/10/02 Mon
First off, I'd add "Superstar", "Restless", and "Body" to the list of special episodes.
Second, it would be cool if the gang just woke up in Victorian England and didn't remember who they really were until the end.
Another cool thing would be to film an episode regularly, than put the scenes in random order.
Ixchel, yuri, Rahael!!! Keeps getting archived! Sad!Buffy -- Tillow, 12:29:51 06/10/02 Mon
Ixchel! Thank you for starting this thread again. I was at CreepCon this weekend. I talked to ASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FanGirl moment over. Now what were we talking about? Something depressing...? Joking, joking...
Ixchel said
I think she was sensitive enough to understand what she was _supposed_ to give Willow and Dawn, but I'm not sure if she wasn't still emotionally paralyzed. IOW, she understood what she should feel, but wasn't really able to do so. For example, her behavior in Entropy toward Dawn (the breakfast and shopping trip scenes) seemed like she was trying very hard, but she was "off".
You've absolutely expounded on what I was trying to say with the responsibility discussion in my earlier post. The 'emotionally paralyzed' bit is precisely it. Thank you. As if her earlier ability to be sensitive was lost to her and all she was left with was the manual. "going through the motions.."
Ixchel said
However, now that I've thought about it, I think Buffy _is_ insightful (usually, maybe not in S6, though). For example, I agree with whoever suggested that (on some level) Faith wanted Buffy to kill her (GD1). IMHO, Buffy, probably, realized this afterwards (maybe, not all at once, but eventually), but she never articulated it (not being one to rake up the past, as you said). Also, she seems to have trouble talking about trauma (another example, her conversation with Giles and Willow regarding Angel, FH&T).
I think another example was her discussion on the couch with Dawn and Xander in Villains when she had to talk them out of vengeance and explain to them the rules of the human world and how Willow didn't want to accept that. Many didn't like that speech, citing it as boring, senseless exposition. On the contrary, I thought it was one of the few moments this season where we really got to see the inner workings of Buffy's mind (besides her guilt and sexuality) and I liked what I saw. She does know what a Slayer is. And she did have insight into what Willow's rampage was about.
Ixchel said
Regarding Spike, I believe he was depressed in S4, then in S5 he found a purpose (even if he didn't want it) in loving Buffy. At the end of S5 he seemed content with having gained her trust and being allowed to help her. I'm sure he was depressed before she came back and then again, beginning with their affair and intensifying after AYW. I believe I understand your point about insight, but IMHO, this trait is a fundamental part of his personality, not necessarily part of his depression (but, you, probably, didn't mean that it is). Interesting suggestion that Buffy would seek out Spike because he could understand. IMHO, it was more because that she didn't have to pretend around him, but this could be a part of it (of course). I think they are related, not that that's the ONLY reason. :) on to larger matters...
Yes, thank you for prompting me to clarify my earlier statement about Spike as a depressed character. You are right. He has had moments where he has risen about his arrested state of development. All during season 5 Spike's, I don't know *spirit, essence* sense of self, grew as his relationship to Buffy/Dawn developed. I think now that you mention it, he was probably less depressed when she was dead then after their sexual relationship began. Because when that occurred, they fell back on old rolls. Buffy treating him once again like a monster/whipping boy and him being love's bitca. The scene where Buffy beats Spike in the alley and he is saying "put it on me" was very representative of what happened this season IMHO because she came to him depressed, he was the most human we've seen him. By the end of the season, she's Normal Again and he's at, as far as I'm concerned, the worst we've ever seen him. Evidently that is what the writers felt they needed to do in order to redeem him. Perhaps because he had been 'treated like a man' or temporarily left his depressed state, and then sunken back into it, he could then see for himself how shallow it was.
yuri said
You mention the scene where Spike says what everyone is trying not believe, that Willow isn't getting any better, and I've actually, throughout this thread, been thinking of Willow and how the idea of the sympathetic depressed person doesn't fit her. When she was upset about OZ, I doubt she could have spotted sadness in anyone very easily or willingly. This fits entirely with what we've seen of her character since then, but also what I've always found slightly disturbing about that time was how unsympathetic Buffy and Xander were to her dispair. Was it because they were in stable places, and therefore unable to identify with her pain, or because the type of mourner she was (selfish, consuming) didn't inspire sympathy? To get sympathy, you need to show some awareness, I guess.
ixchel's response
Also, thank you, yuri. I think Buffy and Xander were sympathetic to Willow about Oz, up to a point. But, I did find their unsympathetic behavior disturbing also, though, somewhat, understandable. Of course, as people sometimes do, they said unkind things when she wasn't in the room. I do think they lost patience with her because of her (mild, really) lashing out. OTOH, both Buffy and Xander have acted badly (WSWB, BB&B) when they were having emotional difficulties, so Willow wasn't unusual in this in SB. And, something I remember thinking at the time SB first aired, Willow was always
very supportive of Buffy when she was upset (Passion, TP). Of course, Xander is a little different because of the romantic angle present at those times, but she has also almost always supportive of him. Not that emotional connections are some sort of commercial transaction and they owed her something (I think they helped her as best they could). IMHO, the intensity of Willow's distress about Oz makes sense, because she has always had extensive emotions (her strength _and_ her weakness). You have a very interesting thought about positive and negative aspects of depression-enhanced sensitivity and relationships. I would suggest that, maybe, when these relationships turn out negatively, it's not only the "comforter's" doing, but the comforted has (in his/her suffering) tried to take too much. It seems to me that you have a clear idea of what goes wrong in these situations and have, quite sensibly, modified your behavior. IMHO, there is no fault in failing to deal completely rationally with emotions, they aren't rational. So it makes sense that what seems intellectually appropriate relationship formation can collapse when confronted with actual feelings.
I'd just like to make the point about Willow in the interaction with Buffy and Xander around the time of Oz leaving that I do think they helped her the best that they could because she didn't really want to be helped. This is one of the most impressive story lines ME has built IMHO because it has taken YEARS to come to fruition but can be best surmised in 2 lines.
Buffy: You have to work through the pain.
Willow: I don't wanna; can't I just go poof and make it go away?
In Something Blue it was alcohol and then magic but magic increasingly became Willow's method of 'fixing things to her liking' as Tara put it. Xander and Buffy were in stable relationships but they were willing to be there for her. Willow was wallowing. And we all have the right to wallow now and again. My whole philosophy is the faster you feel it the faster you heal it but I don't sit at picnics with my friends and point out their rapidly browning apples. :) I digress. I'm not sure that I would consider that as depression in the clinical sense. Definitely severe self esteem issues. And is there a line between these two?
yuri said
I find interesting the line between the depressed who is able to use their enhanced ability to see other's pain and not be afraid of it and who acts upon it in a positive way, and the depressed who uses that awareness too much and leans on it to create unhealthy relationships in which they are the perpetual confidant, comforter, or hero.
I think I've been the latter a few times (not so much the hero, but definitely the confidant), and it's really hard because I always wonder if I would prefer not to help out at all, or to create these imbalanced relationships with people. I worry that I don't know how to find the balance (intellectually, I do, but in practice it is much more difficult) and so I feel I have to choose one extreme. I've realized that it doesn't help the person in pain any more than it helps me, and that it is selfish of me to set things up like that, so I have pretty much forced myself away from doing it. But this is probably why the topic so fascinates me. I'm beginning to really understand that, as Tillow says, you must only use it as a tool, and not an identity.
I think your first sentence here is quite beautifully stated. As for the rest? Balance is key. Attaining balance, illusive. May I make a reading suggestion? With my whole heart I recommend the Mastery of Love by Don Miguel Ruiz. You should probably read the Four Agreements first (same author) but the Mastery of Love was the more amazing book for me. They are both short and appy to some of what we are talking about here. Holding on to yourself while giving to others without questioning too much. Realizing such things are possible. Beneficial even. :)
Awesome discussion people!!! And I swear in the time it took me to write this, the thread got archived.
Tillow
[> Fascinating post, Tillow and thank you. -- Ixchel, 20:35:44 06/10/02 Mon
I think we're in agreement about Buffy's reactions. I especially like your statement about having a "manual", but not the actual emotions to go with it. "Going through the motions...", indeed.
Regarding Buffy's speech in Villains, I think the shadow of Faith was in that room, though she wasn't mentioned. IMHO, Buffy learned many things from her experience with Faith and didn't have to learn them in quite as hard a way as Faith did or Willow is. I do wonder though, if Buffy would've had as much clarity if it had been Dawn who died or if she hadn't been still, somewhat, emotionally detached (this isn't a criticism of Buffy, just a wondering). Of course, a lot has happened since S3 when she went after Faith (who would, I suppose, count as a human though she and Buffy are really superhuman) in GD1. The differences being that Faith's death could have saved Angel (and she didn't even have to die, necessarily), while Warren's death couldn't bring back Tara, and Buffy realized (after she stabbed Faith) that what she'd done was wrong (IMHO), whereas Willow didn't realize anything (after killing Warren) and continued on. As an aside, I also wonder, if Warren had been a demon of some sort (rather than human), would some believe that Willow's actions were appropriate (just the killing him)? I wouldn't, because I think revenge isn't ever appropriate. The demon would have to be dispatched (presumably by Buffy), but not for revenge, rather to prevent his killing anyone else. I feel the distinction is very important.
You make some very interesting points about Spike. As an aside, I'm not completely sure that (from within the story, from without, on the level of the writers, of course it had to unfold in some very dramatic manner), if Buffy hadn't come back or if she hadn't initiated their affair (OMWF), Spike couldn't have maintained his stasis (not "good", not "bad") indefinitely. Of course, this is irrelevant now and if it had happened this way, he would've never completed the (apparently) necessary transformation to be "good". It _is_ noticeable that at the beginning of S6 Spike is fairly stable and Buffy is very unstable (beneath her apathy). During the progression of the season Buffy becomes more stable (though painfully slowly, with much backsliding and starting over) and Spike loses whatever stability he once had (also slowly). I'm not sure what, if anything, this means.
You also make some interesting points about Willow. One thing about her reaction to Oz's departure, I'm not sure how much time passed between that and SB. Was Willow's despair really _that_ unreasonable (up to the spell-casting, I mean)? IMHO, she was very depressed (though not clinically so) and she didn't deal with it well, it was her first time (both Buffy and Xander had gone through this). Also, how long is an appropriate mourning period for a relationship and who decides these things? I honestly have no idea. Regarding Willow's poor response to pain, Buffy also has a poor response sometimes (again, not a criticism just an observation). She tends to try to escape it, as opposed to Willow's trying to eliminate it. Unfortunately, Willow's response lead to more and more questionable behavior, culimnating in her meltdown (S6). One point (I feel compelled to make), Willow was always very supportive of Buffy, about Angel, she tried to help after the Parker fiasco, she was sympathetic when Buffy felt like a third wheel in FI, she thought of Buffy's happiness when Riley expressed interest in TI (and this was during her despair about Oz). So if she needed more care when she was sad, I'm inclined to understand this (not that it excuses her rudeness in SB, though, and not that Buffy and Xander probably weren't tapped out). Of course, it's obvious (to me) that her flawed method of dealing with pain influenced her later failings. However, I believe much of her trying to modify the world to her liking had to do with being powerless and then being powerful, and the effect this can have on the best and most well-meaning of people (even more so someone with a warped sense of self-worth).
This _has_ been a great discussion. Thank you again, Tillow and, also, excellent post.
Ixchel
[> Re: Ixchel, yuri, Rahael!!! Keeps getting archived! Sad!Buffy -- Rahael, 04:37:05 06/11/02 Tue
I have more thoughts to add, when work slows down. Just keeping it alive until then!
[> More random thoughts -- Rahael, 07:44:34 06/11/02 Tue
I was trying to reconcile two conflicting ideas. That the desire to avoid pain, and in fact emotions of all kind is what leads us to a depressive state. I want to say that the prison of depression is built by Willow's thoughts and words - 'make the pain stop', 'why can't it go away? Why do I have to deal?' It is the avoidance of any potential pain, and conflict and disturbing emotions that makes the depressive reduce personal and emotional contact with other people and the world at large. They seek protection in a world which might not be positive, which might be grey, but which is safe, because there is no new risk. The only threat is 'depression' and since it is a familiar state, it is preferred to a potentially even more dangerous world. Because depression reduces our capacity to see a 'full' picture of the world, to see the positive as well as negative, the depressive's insight might seem more true and real, but will also in the end lead to passivity. They are reduced to bystanders, whose negative impressions of the world and other people are confirmed and reconfirmed. Therefore, they may have insight, but they lack the ability to have agency - they doubt and mistrust that agency.
So I think it is possible to have 'insight' but be powerless. And in fact, the awareness of powerlessness could be part of that very insight. Going back to Ixchel's earlier point that depressed people have a more 'realistic' view of the world than positive people, it is clear that we sometimes need to be overly optimistic about our chances of success before we can go ahead and take risks that might not be pulled off. And this insight need have no relation to having the kind of interpersonal skills needed to handle tense situations with other people. Buffy's 'off' because while she might identify what the situation needs, she has been stripped of the ability to convey her empathy and understanding.
John Burwood pointed to Buffy's ability to mask her emotions under a mask. For me that is a classic sign. Since you deny that you feel emotion, that you feel pain, you can convince other people too. The hardest person to admit vulnerability and helplessness to is yourself. But this kind of toughness is brittle. In my opinion, Buffy's depressive state is triggered only by her mother'' death and nothing else. People have talked of Post traumatic stress disorder, and Buffy's years on the front line. I don't find this convincing because I do not read 'Slaying' as 'Killing'. I do not think we are meant to see Buffy as a Military type who 'fights' and endures shell shock. Riley and the Initiative are military types. For me the significance lies in the title of the Season 6 Premier, 'Bargaining', referring to a stage of the grieving process. One of the chief causes of depression is an interruption of the grieving process. The whole time Buffy was dead in the earth signifies her real 'depressed' period - she is dead emotionally, hibernating, unreachable. When she is resurrected - that is the start of her * recovery * process. Recovery starts at the beginning of Season 6, not the end.
I have been most admiring of how ME have shown that the hardest thing for a depressed person is learning to live again, not being depressed, because being depressed is safe, warm, without pain (as Buffy describes 'heaven'). Compared to that, the bright lights of the world that break into the dark hurt you, and looks like hell. The fire that she feared, and yet was drawn to is emotion. The very emotion/fire that the Guide told her was essential to her. Buffy's story toward the latter end of Season 5, and through all the way to Season 6 was about finding her way back to the fire of emotion/aliveness. Along the way, she learnt that life wasn't safe (Tara's death, Spike's attempted rape) and that reaching out to other people could lead to getting hurt. But one has to embrace it. Be prepared to face the pain of engaging with other human beings. I'm also wondering about another reason that Buffy reaches out to Spike, the most ambiguous person who she knows will probably let her down. Doesn't she want to be let down? Doesn't she want to realise that it's much safer not letting anyone in? Doesn't she pick the very person who will tell her to go back to the 'Asylum' which is both heaven and prison?
Thank you Yuri, Ixchel and Tillow for keeping the conversation going, and for all your great points!
[> [> Sorry, spoilers for all eps in Season 6 in above post -- Rahael, 07:58:41 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Sophist, 08:53:21 06/11/02 Tue
That the desire to avoid pain, and in fact emotions of all kind is what leads us to a depressive state. ... It is the avoidance of any potential pain, and conflict and disturbing emotions that makes the depressive reduce personal and emotional contact with other people and the world at large.
Aren't the avoidance of pain and, in fact, emotion, essential elements of Stoic philosophy? Do you mean such avoidance must lead to depression or that it can?
I'm also wondering about another reason that Buffy reaches out to Spike, the most ambiguous person who she knows will probably let her down. Doesn't she want to be let down? Doesn't she want to realise that it's much safer not letting anyone in? Doesn't she pick the very person who will tell her to go back to the 'Asylum' which is both heaven and prison?
IIRC, Spike did not tell her to go back to the Asylum, he told her she had to choose. I didn't see this as letting her down, but as calling her on the fact that she was wallowing in her own misery.
I have to say that this is a wonderful thread. I've enjoyed every single post. Great job by all.
[> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Rahael, 09:18:12 06/11/02 Tue
You are right of course - it can rather than 'it must'. I expressed myself badly - what I mean is slightly different. Isn't there a difference in trying to achieve a sense of calmness, a stocism in the face of events, different to trying to hide away from painful emotion? Such as Willow faced with all the pain in the world reacts with a very emotional, 'I can't bear it, go away'.
In my mind there is a huge difference in attempting to 'rise above' and 'suppressing'. Well, there seems to be a big difference, I just express why it's different!.
About the Spike point - as you know, I am Spike debate neutral. My point is entirely about Buffy's perspective. She thinks Spike will let her down, so it is safe to trust him. Harder to open up to Dawn, who will never go away, and clings to her. And the only person who will survive a 'beating off' from her is Spike. Buffy thinks Spike will let her down, but then I did point out that depressed people will view others and life in a negative way!!
I think this is the point that Yuri was making in her very perceptive remarks about those who see other's pain but are sucked into taking up a 'hero' or perpetual comforter role. By doing this to people who will always let you down, you simply confirm to yourself your negative impression of life, and the harm that trusting others will lead to. Of course, every now and then you pick someone who surprises you.
[> [> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- redcat, 11:43:14 06/11/02 Tue
Sophist asked Rahael: "Aren't the avoidance of pain and, in fact, emotion, essential elements
of Stoic philosophy? Do you mean such avoidance must lead to depression or that it can?" In
answer, Rahael noted that there are different ways of practicing a "sense of calmness," some
of which suppress or avoid emotion, like Stoicism, and others which seek to "rise above" the
pain without necessarily suppressing it.
My question is, doesn't a philosophy like Stoicism tend to lead many people exactly into
depression? I say this because I've met some pretty joyous yogis - and have never seen
anyone smile quite like the Dalai Lama - but have never known a happy Stoic, even tho I've
unfortunately had to live and work with a few. I'm not sure that Stoicism is the best philosophy
to use when arguing that suppression of emotion in an attempt to avoid pain doesn't
necessarily lead to depression. Historically, there may well have been Stoics who were not
depressed, but every single person I've ever met who seriously espoused that philosophy was sad (and also arrogant, but I'm not making a connection, just an observation).
Have others here had a different experience with Stoicism? Are there positive stories?
[> [> [> Let me change my answer -- Rahael, 11:34:17 06/11/02 Tue
I struggled with this question, mostly because I suddenly realised it was more important to me than I realised.
I think it's a question of 'appropriate response' and even then, the answer is complex. Certainly one must approach important moral decisions passionlessly, logically. You musn't give way to unreason. But what if, in some circumstances, passionlessness leads to madness/depression/unreason?
I was brought up to not show emotion. That whinging and whining and looking for sympathy were self indulgent and vulgar. 'Strong' people didn't do that. They just got on with things.
So, when you hear the next door neighbour being murdered, you just get on with lunch. You bury them in your garden that evening, and go on as if nothing out of the ordinary happened.
When the bombs start falling, it is dishonourable and cowardly to express fear, or run too quickly to the bomb shelter. A measured walk is sufficient. Even better, don't go - finish your chores first. Nonchalance is always the most admirable response to danger.
When you are tortured, the strong person does not break down and admit anything, (though I can kind of understand since other people's lives depend on you) but the strong person also goes on never to think about it more than a random occurrence that had no significance or effect on them.
When a child shows fear and trembles when a strange man points a gun at her, scold her. This is dangerous behaviour.
When death approaches, you must make sure you die honourably, with your pride intact. Be prepared.
Remind the teenager, who grieves the absence of her mother that some children have lost both parents. This is selfish, self indulgent emotion which must be quashed. Seeking help for this compounds this error, and must be discouraged.
I can testify that this is a truly crappy way to deal with life. Unfortunately, I had to go along with it firstly, because I was told to, and secondly I would have put a lot of people in danger if I hadn't. Mine was the pragmatic adoption of this principle. The people who taught me adopted it for principled reasons (I can only imagine so, since they are still sticking to them, and the only danger is the danger of facing all those scary emotions).
They still think I'm weak. I think they're batty. And I can confirm it lead to, in every case, depression and general f****d-upness. I can be passionless now about it. But about 7 years ago, it was a great wave of rebellion fuelled by anger and emotion which saved me.
[> [> [> [> Does one size fit all? -- Sophist, 12:52:13 06/11/02 Tue
You and redcat make similar points about the impact of stoicism. I certainly respect the validity of your personal experience (and repeat my expression of admiration for your triumph under such circumstances).
That said, I think different approaches work for different people. I'm reluctant to say that, in all cases and for all people, a particular view of life "must" lead to this or "can't" result in that. I'm not even sure I'd say "likely" to lead to it. "Can" seems right.
Let me give you an example from my own experience. When something bothers me (which is rare; I tend to the stoic side :)), people tell me I "must" talk about it or things will get worse. I find this untrue. I find that talking about it is, in fact, what makes things worse. It works much better for me to resolve things internally; that's the way I am able to put them behind me and move forward. When Buffy ran away after Becoming 2, I completely identified with her and was (and still am) furious at Xander, Joyce, and Willow for their mis-treatment of Buffy upon her return.
It may very well be that this approach would not work for others, or would not work for me under other circumstances (certainly my life has not involved any of the horrors you've faced, rah). But my own experience does make me reluctant to believe that we can identify a simple cause for such a complex and little-understood phenomenon as depression.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Does one size fit all? -- Rahael, 14:14:18 06/11/02 Tue
Actually, I too completely identified with Buffy at the end of season two. I had a similar reaction to the Scooby gang, and I completely affirm the calming effect of just walking away sometimes.
I also understand the whole talking thing. I can only talk about the dead issues, not the live ones, and you can't just talk to anyone, you have to talk to someone who can deal, who might be able to have helpful reactions.
Speaking as someone who has never found a friend who was comfortable listening to any bit of my past. People around me in my day to day life think I'm stoical. I know I'm not. Does this make sense? I'm just able to admit that I'm scared, and I know that I'm the only person who'll be able to pull me out of whatever situation. I hope for, but don't expect help, but nowadays I'm always confident that I can do it by myself if I need to.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Makes perfect sense to me. -- Sophist, 14:19:16 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> Being forced to the other extreme fits no one -- auroramama, 15:50:49 06/11/02 Tue
I'm a talk-it-out, cry-it-out type by nature. I grew up being told constantly to suck it up. I ended up thinking that all of society (except a few loud Jews like myself) was leagued against my style of coping. I had a close friend who told me that she'd been raised to put up a stoic front and was trying to overcome that early training and express emotions like pain and anger.
Then I became friends with someone who was a natural stoic (in the lower-case sense.) *She* had experienced society as a chorus of touchy-feely twits telling her she *ought* to cry. (Remember Susan Sto Helit ((I think)) in Pratchett, when her parents died, and her teachers were badly upset that she didn't cry? Like that.) She became rather hostile to the whole idea.
I suppose it might be useful to have both methods of coping in one's repertoire. Over the years, I've certainly found myself in situations where putting emotion aside was the only way to remain useful to others, and I'm better at it than I used to be. On the other hand, that means I've also learned to make the kind of mistakes that go with that ability. I used to feel quite safe from being sandbagged by suppressed emotion, because I was lousy at suppressing. Not any more.
But if it is a good idea to be able to use more than one strategy, I'd still say that the middle of a crisis is not the time to interfere with a coping mechanism that's working. And for some reason, that's exactly when people are most likely to decide it's time to stuff a round peg in a square hole.
I'm fond of Buffy as a character partly because she's so different from me, and yet I identify with her. My heart bled for her at the beginning of 3rd season, and I was angry with her friends. (Who dares to say, "You didn't respond optimally to having to slaughter your lover"? Not me.) But my heart bled for Willow too when Oz left. She just needed to act out of character a little, say the same unhappy things a few hundred times -- thereby being annoying to her friends, certainly. But perhaps not more annoying than friendship should have tolerated.
Auroramama
[> [> [> [> [> [> Nice post. I agree. -- Sophist, 17:35:21 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Agree as well - good post -- shadowkat, 19:10:26 06/11/02 Tue
I too am a venter. But this year...I found myself shutting down, being unable to focus and connect - going through the motions. And thus found myself identifying very strongly with Buffy. It hurt too much to feel - so I shut myself off. I changed a coping mechanism that had worked for years - and that drove me for a relatively short period of time to a therapist to get it back. Being stoic didn't work for me - all it did is make me feel lost. I needed something in between the two extreems. I needed to care again.
Perhaps one of the reasons this season has felt so real to me and has gripped me more than any other tv show or movie or book this year, is because I felt as if I was taking the same emotional journey as the characters. When Buffy climbed out of that hole in the ground in the finale so did I...to the melodious notes of the Prayer of St. Francis.
I think climbing out of that grave is a wonderful metaphor for coming out of a depression. Starting with the breakdown of tears. In that episode we see stoic Buffy break out in tears of laughter with Giles and tears of joy and relief with Dawn, telling Dawn she wants to share the world with her and the joy in it. With Dawn she climbs out from the darkness into a beautiful spring day bright with flowering trees - up until now we've seen none. While in a depression, everything seems drab, colorless, faded. You want to be underground, in the womb, away from people and the noise. You shut off or at least I did. But you want to feel - you want to focus...but can't figure out how. You want someone, such as a handsome vampire, to comfort you and make you feel wanted and desirable and not ask anything in return - because you can't give anything. This season was about Buffy figuring out how to focus and feel again. How to walk.
Willow is a good contrast. Willow's always been the venter.
She deals with depression by taking drugs (the magic metaphor) or venting to her friends. Or taking it out on the universe. Although I'm not sure that's depression she's feeling at the end so much as grief and rage at the world for giving her so much pain.
Spike also is a good contrast - another venter. Not really stoic at all. Using alcohol, sex, and even violence. But nothing works. Until he decides to change, to finally break out of his rut. HE too arises out of his depression - taking a trip to make a change. It's sad that it took a horrible act to motivate him to do this.
Excellent thread! Really enjoyed reading the discussion. Sorry I'm not more coherent today - hope the above made sense.
[> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Arethusa, 09:45:22 06/11/02 Tue
I read somewhere a different definition of depression-that it is anger, but turned towards oneself, instead of others. As we saw in OMWF, Buffy was actually angry that she had been resurrected, but wouldn't or couldn't vent this anger on her friends, who only loved her and wanted her back. So she withdraws emotionally, denying herself the support she needs to recover from her experience. Buffy was slowly being crushed by the weight of her resonsibilities and actually started withdrawing in Season 5. Death, while unwanted, must have been a relief. Her job was done, and she could finally rest. And then her friends pulled her back into the rat race.
And Spike-he demands nothing at all from her, at least at first, so she goes to him. Unable to deal with her own pain and unwilling to take on the additional burden of others' needs, she goes to the one person whose needs she can safely and self-rightously ignore. As you said, she never lets him in, which is the one thing he really wants. Buffy insists Spike has no feelings even when it is perfectly obvious that he does because she doesn't want to be with a man who will make emotional demands on her. If he isn't human, she can be as selfish and callous as she wants-and make no mistake, depression can make one very selfish. The constant misery leaves one little energy to help or care for others. I don't blame Buffy for this-my personal, very unprofessional, opinion is that depression is a sign of bigger, hidden problems that need to exposed, and sometimes you really have to hit bottom before you *want* to change. Taking a happy pill doesn't solve anything, and can fool you into thinking the problem is gone. Plus, I read _Brave New World_, and every time I see an anti-depression medication advertisement I think -soma!
Very interesting point about needing optimism, and a very positive self-image to take risks. A little arrogance is sometimes needed to get things done-the belief in oneself and one's abilities that is confidence. Politicians are often arrogant in their self-confidence-it takes a lot of nerve to declare oneself the best person out of millions to do a certain job. Buffy has that confidence about slaying ("I can kill vampires 'til the cows come home....") but lacked it in her personal life. I hope that's changed-I think so.
[> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Raccoon, 12:13:13 06/11/02 Tue
I've enjoyed this discussion very much, and I just want to make some comments to your excellent post, Rahael.
It is the avoidance of any potential pain, and conflict and disturbing emotions that makes the depressive reduce personal and emotional contact with other people and the world at large. They seek protection in a world which might not be positive, which might be grey, but which is safe, because there is no new risk.
I'm not sure I agree with the level of active choice this view could bestow on a depressed person. Granted, there may be a subconscious wish to remain in a depressed state - the familiar is, as you say, above all a safe thing. However, I've come to take a slightly different view on depression. I'm not sure I would categorize it as the absence of emotion. I think depression, the numbness of not being connected to your environment and your own psyche, is a very powerful emotion in its own right. Depression isn't necessarily lack of energy, but enormous amounts of energy guided into the wrong places. Sometimes depression isn't a merciful but deadening absence of pain as much as a pain so immense that it drowns out everything else. I see Buffy and Willow as two different but perhaps equally valid portayals of depression in S6.
As for Buffy, I do see her as a "warrior" - the dichotomy between Buffy as mythical persona bound by fate and duty and singular young woman entitled to her choices is an endlessly fascinating dynamic, by which Buffy is being slowly torn apart during S5. I'm not sure I would categorize her as "depressed" during the final arc of that season - she is enduring grief, but purposeful and connected to the end. I see her her sacrifice in "The Gift", however, as part relief at shuffling off her coil. During this episode Buffy is permitted to fuse together the opposing aspects of her persona - she is able to be the sister/mother while surrendering wholly to "her art". The false security-inducing vision of Sunnydale Buffy has in her absence, and the Bargaining realization that it is not over, is IMO the beginning of Buffy's depression. S5 was resolved by a simple and clear-cut choice; in many ways an unrealistic resolution to real-life struggles. S6 has been characterized as anything but.
IMO Buffy isn't as much seeking numbness in S6 as unable to escape from it. The notion of having come back "wrong", the plaintiveness of "Walk Through the Fire" can be seen as underlining that. I see Buffy's death as the brief interlude of relief between completing one stage of your life and commencing another, when the consequences of your choices don't always take you were you wished to go. Spike is, in this as in other ways, Buffy's shadow self. He presents a running commentary to Buffy's journey during the season, acting as both id and superego - "You enjoy rolling in [the dirt]"; the care shown towards Dawn during the beginning of the season; harsher truths such as pointing out Buffy's dormant martyr complex. Towards him Buffy exhibits both her pain and her immense anger at having to deal with the existence that was thrown at her. Towards the end of the season Willow turns into another reflection of Buffy, only she turns her anger towards the universe instead of internalizing it. By this comparison, Buffy's violence towards her lover becomes even more disturbing and destructive.
ME have shown that the hardest thing for a depressed person is learning to live again, not being depressed, because being depressed is safe, warm, without pain (as Buffy describes 'heaven'). Again, I have to disagree on "Heaven" being Buffy's most acute state of depression. I see it more as representing ignorance of change and complicated choices. IMO depression is not a comfortable lack of emotion, but a desperate acknowledgement of the lack of connectedness to warmth and pain. Whereas Buffy seeks to establish this connection by "going through the motions" and entering into a sexual relationship against her better knowledge, Willow seeks to destroy the world because her depression is not numbing as much as it is unbearable.
Again, thanks for this wonderful discussion.
[> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- dream of the consortium, 13:14:11 06/11/02 Tue
"Again, I have to disagree on "Heaven" being Buffy's most acute state of depression. I see it more as representing ignorance of change and complicated choices. IMO depression is not a comfortable lack of emotion, but a desperate acknowledgement of the lack of connectedness to warmth and pain...Willow seeks to destroy the world because her depression is not numbing as much as it is unbearable."
Thank you for pointing this out. Depression is not comfortable; it's hell.
I have to take issue with the comments made above by one poster about how "taking a happy pill" doesn't make you better. I agree that psychotropic drugs are vastly overprescribed in our society. I took anti-depressants for a short period. I was horribly desperately unhappy at the time, and muddled and confused. Strangely enough, taking the drug gave me enough focus to realize I didn't need the drug - I needed to change my job, divorce my husband, eat better, get out of debt, lower my drinking, quit smoking and get exercise. So I did all those things. But years of a terrible marriage had gotten me to a point where I was completely unable to break out of destructive patterns. All my coping solutions made things worse, and I couldn't see it until I was on the medication. There do seem to be chemical imbalances that occur when a person is under too much stress for too long, and these can prevent a person from being able to make the changes necessary to improve her life. However, I would understand if someone were to tell me that I should not have used anti-depressants at that time, that I should have pulled myself out of it alone. Perhaps I should have. I don't know - my memories of that time are so skewed.
But my husband was a different matter. He was severely depressed, and became ever