June 2002 posts
Odd quote. -- Darby, 09:47:14 06/11/02 Tue
This, from the Number One Ranking Quality Show for this year, a quote from Chicago's Daily Herald.
http://www.dailyherald.com/timeout/movies.asp?intID=3741318
1) "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" - Often the bridesmaid in my top five, it was finally the bride as best show in its sixth year and first season on the United Paramount Network. Buffy's early season disappointment at returning to life dovetailed nicely at the end with witch Willow's attempt to end the world and its suffering. If it wandered in between, it was still genre TV of a high order. Willow's pursuit of vengeance was also the season's most powerful Sept. 11 allegory.
I can kinda sorta see how you could stretch the Willow storyline this way, but does anyone find this an obvious fit?
Incidentally, after a top 25, Angel was included in a list of "50 more worth watching."
[> Re: Odd quote. -- Rob, 09:59:33 06/11/02 Tue
If you stretch it very, very far, it can fit...but I just don't see it, really.
Also, I wouldn't call Buffy's resurrection a disappointment. Perhaps the mid-season slump was, but I this season had one of the strongest starts of any "Buffy" season, all the way up to "Tabula Rasa", IMO.
Rob
[> [> Re: Odd quote. -- Rahael, 10:04:12 06/11/02 Tue
I don't think it has to be stretched at all - it's already been pointed out here, but as that poster said then, it's bound to cause tempers to flare, and so on and so forth.
[> [> [> Re: Odd quote. -- Haddock, 10:10:37 06/11/02 Tue
It doesn't have to be stretched too far. Anything which raises questions about vengeance vs justice could inevitably seen as a commentary on the fallout from September 11th, regardless of the conclusion reached.
For what its worth, I don't think that the show's writers actually intended Willow's descent to be in any way a commentary on September 11th, or American foreign policy but I'm not a mindreader
[> [> [> [> Re: Odd quote. -- Rob, 11:02:55 06/11/02 Tue
Okay, I'll amend my statement. I understand how it could be seen as a Sept. 11th allegory, but I don't think it should be. The themes and emotions of "Buffy" have always had a universality about them that defy being pigeonholed into one specific symbol or meaning. By saying that it's meant as a Sept. 11th allegory, it strips away both the idea that other symbols could be coming into play there, and takes away the importance of the story, to the characters, on a literal level. Because, although symbols are great, the most important thing is the characters and their literal journey. If characters exist merely as symbols, then you lose a lot of heart from your story. And "Buffy," to me, has always been about characters first, even at the expense, sometimes, of established mythology (and that's to its credit, I believe)...September 11th was a tragic, earth-shattering event. But Willow's quest for veangance is, IMO, her own quest, her own feelings, and not meant to be representative of a country of mourners. Perhaps some allusions can be drawn, but I think it's best, for the sake of the story, to leave them be.
Rob
[> [> [> Addendum. -- Darby, 11:22:40 06/11/02 Tue
I must have missed the thread that discussed it, but I'd like to add something -
Since the basics of the season "arc" are set over the summer, the basic parameters of Willow's revenge would have predated September - I guess we should look for more specific metaphorical points (added when the show was actually written and shot) to be able the make anything more than very broad conceptual connections and seek any purposeful allusions.
[> [> Re: Odd quote. -- Jane's Addiction, 11:07:26 06/11/02 Tue
Was the writer actually referring to the early S6 ep's as a creative disappointment, or simply referring to the Buffy character being far less than thrilled to have this weighty mortal coil thrust back upon her?
[> [> disappointment -- grifter, 12:47:36 06/11/02 Tue
The way I understood it the writer meant that Buffy was disappointed in being resurrected, not himself being disappointed with the story.
[> [> [> Re: disappointment -- Rob, 12:55:12 06/11/02 Tue
Oh, I read that totally wrong! Thanks for pointing that out to me. :o)
Rob
[> Re: Odd quote. -- dream of the consortium, 10:09:24 06/11/02 Tue
What I find amazing is that they could find not only 25 series to recommend, but another 50 (!!!!) worth watching. How much time are people spending watching television anyway? (Wait - don't answer that.) These shows are worth watching compared to doing what, exactly? Reading a good book? Reading a bad book? Sleeping? Drawing, running, gardening, taking a bath? Fighting with your significant other? Generally, I am shocked by the low quality of shows people trumpet as being excellent. I've seen episodes of Friends, Frasier, and so on, and can't imagine how anyone could consider these good without having first had his standards set on low by really god-awful t.v. It's terribly depressing.
Okay, I'll let go of that now.
And, no, I don't think the pursuit of vengeance was intended as a Sept. 11 allegory. Sure, vengeance was a theme and therefore the theme can be discussed in relationship to that event, but I don't think the storyline would have gone any differently had the real-life tragedy never happened.
[> [> Re: Odd quote. -- Deeva, 10:37:12 06/11/02 Tue
I don't think that this had anything to do with Sept.11th. It is/was a profound and signifigant event to happened to all of us but should it be in involved with every story regarding vengence/justice? Nope. Sometimes a story is just that, a story.
[> [> Re: Odd quote. -- Dochawk, 12:23:21 06/11/02 Tue
The Willow storyline was conceived years before it aired, after season 4, Joss mentioned that he had "special plans for Willow" and the season arcs were done in June/July last year.
And Frazier and Friends are funny to an aweful lot more people than Buffy is great television to us.
[> Re: Odd quote. -- shadowkat, 12:05:06 06/11/02 Tue
I actually completely agree with them.
"1) "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" - Often the bridesmaid in my top five, it was finally the bride as best show in its sixth year and first season on the United Paramount Network. Buffy's early season disappointment at returning to life dovetailed nicely at the end with witch Willow's attempt to end the world and its suffering. If it wandered in between, it was still genre TV of a high order. Willow's pursuit of vengeance was also the season's most powerful Sept. 11 allegory."
For the first time I became completely enraptured by the show after watching it for six years. I also strongly felt the depression and disappointment of Buffy - making me really identify with the character for the first time ever, prior to this year...I truly didn't identify with at her at all.
And the vengeance allegory did closely fit Sept 11 - the desire to destroy to avenge a loved one. Without thought to the consequences. And all the controversarial thoughts regarding that. Must say it was the only show this year that I felt hit how my emotions and feelings regarding Sept.
11. I was beginning to think I was in the minority on that...so it's great to see a reviewer echo my feelings for once. ;-)
As for Angel - I may be in the minority here as well- but with the exception of the last five episodes and Lullaby, found
Angel to be not that engaging. I just don't emotionally
connect with the characters on Angel as I do the Buffy
characters. And I never connected with the characters of
Angel and Cordy on the same level as I did with Spike and
Willow. I think it's a purely subjective thing. (My brother prefers Angel for instance. And I don't mind if I miss an
episode of Angel...but absolutely can't miss one of Buffy.)
[> [> Re: Odd quote. -- dochawk, 12:26:15 06/11/02 Tue
Totally agree with yout thoughts about Angel. I've seen every episode of Angel now and I just don't care about any of the characters except Gunn and Fred like I do any of the characters on BtVS (including Spike).
[> [> [> Re: Homage to Both -- Brian, 12:39:35 06/11/02 Tue
I actually never miss either show. I turn off the phone, and I refuse to go out either night. I tape both of them together on one tape as many of the weekly themes cross over even if the characters don't. But I will confess that while I will watch a Buffy show over and over, it is rare that I will do that with Angel. There are exceptions of course, with the birth of Cornor being the biggest. And I never miss watching the Angel reruns, and I am delighted to realize with this second viewing that Angel is just as tightly plotted, has just as much foreshadowing, and can always blow me away just as emotionally. Angel is usually the "darker show." but this year had many "uplifting moments." Season 6 of Buffy was very dark. It was nice that Angel brought a lot of interlude light.
[> [> [> [> Re: Homage to Both -- shadowkat, 13:14:01 06/11/02 Tue
Confession ...as well. This year for the first time after Loyalty I started taping. I realized the two dovetail each other and if you miss one, you miss part of the tapestry.
Have to say the characters of Connor, Wesely, Justine,
Holtz and Lilah and Darla have had me enthralled.
Taped last nights and Sunday's for instance. While I still
prefer Buffy. I will dump Alias for Angel next season and I love Alias...but the writing on Angel is better. Guess I'm a diehard Me fan for now.
CC Update (Could be considered Spoilery for Angel Season 4 I guess) -- Dochawk, 12:18:37 06/11/02 Tue
Putting to rest a persistent Web rumor, Angel co-creator Joss Whedon told SCI FI Wire that regular cast member Charisma Carpenter will indeed return for The WB series' fourth season in the fall. Carpenter's month-long absence in the middle of last season and her character Cordelia's ascendance into a higher plane of existence in the season finale fueled rumors that unspecified personal problems had resulted in her departure from the series.
Not so, Whedon said in an interview at the Saturn Awards ceremony in Los Angeles June 10. "I hadn't heard all the vicious stuff," he said. "I just heard people saying, 'Is she coming back?' I've heard every vicious rumor about everybody, and I lend them all very little credence. She is coming back. She's a part of the show. She's an essential part of the show. ... It's not as vicious a rumor as the rumor that I directed Boy Meets World, but it's up there."
[> Thanks. Adding it to my "Tomorrow" analysis now. -- Masq, 12:47:02 06/11/02 Tue
You know, when it's from the horse's mouth and all..
[> [> hmmm..."essential part of the show"? -- Vickie, 14:10:40 06/11/02 Tue
Amber Benson was "the heart of the show." (the other show) Her character is dead now.
Should be an interesting S4 of Angel.
[> [> Link to article ....Whedon: Angel Star returning -- Rufus, 15:24:07 06/11/02 Tue
Sci Fi Wire
[> [> [> Thanks, Ruf, added the link -- Masq, 15:34:30 06/11/02 Tue
Then proceeded to read the article on BtVS there, and got a bit spoiled for the season 7 premiere. Grrr argh!
[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks, Ruf, added the link -- Rufus, 17:38:00 06/11/02 Tue
Bad, naughty, Masq....the link I gave was directly to the one article.....so that can only mean that you lost a battle with temptation to read the article about Whedon talking about Buffy....here
I just can't resist corrupting a few more souls......;)
RESTARTING the HAIKU thread to make room for other postings (unresolved ones inside) -- LittleBit, 12:38:36 06/11/02 Tue
Unconfirmed guesses:
JCC
Betraying Slayer,
a dark shroud lights the mansion,
a fake evil vamp. - JCC
?enemies (Rahael)
?BvD (Ete)
JCC
A blond mystery,
Revelations close to home,
To protect the one.
?No Place Like Home (Jane's Addiction)
cat
A diffrent slayer.
Out of history's cold dead past.
Wreaks havoc to feel.
?primeval (rc)
julia
willow flayed warren
she's off the wagon again
bad willow bad witch
?two to go (rc)
spike is so cool and
i mean the girl is hot too
andrew butt monkey
?entropy (rc)
black leather coat swirls
cigarette cherry glows bright
out for a walk bitch
?no place like home (rc)(Ete - helping)
the sky is falling
another apocolypse
tuesday chez buffy
?once more with feeling (rc)
JCC
A fallen big bad,
who is in love with his flame,
joins to drive sire mad.
?lover's walk (Ete)
Waiting for answer:
Ete
Thirsday, say welcome
Friday, hide and seek but on
saturday, nothing left!
Rob
Little Miss Muffet's
Breaths are silenced again and
Again; again and...
[> Is that a hint for me to put it in the archives? -- Masq, 12:41:02 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Was it subtle enough? ;) -- LittleBit, 12:43:31 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Addendum... -- Masq, 12:44:23 06/11/02 Tue
This is a good thing to do periodically for very popular threads. It helps make room for new threads, which get kicked into the archives too fast when there are long popular threads lingering on the main board.
[> Rob's Hint... -- LittleBit, 12:50:11 06/11/02 Tue
...so we don't lose it:
Little Miss Muffet's
Breaths are silenced again and
Again; again and...
1) There are more than two words in the title of the episode.
2) Focus on the "Little Miss Muffet" (and who "Little Miss Muffet" is), and the "again and again" part.
[> [> Re: Rob's Hint... -- Ete, 13:01:34 06/11/02 Tue
the wheight of the world !
[> [> [> YES!!! 20 bajillion Slayer points for you!! :o) -- Rob, 13:05:37 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> yay me :)) -- Ete, 13:20:38 06/11/02 Tue
[> More haïkus not yet found -- Ete, 13:09:33 06/11/02 Tue
face to face meeting
with one long forgotten
leads to change of name
(Surprise: wrong)
To chose between
One blind of insight and
One blind of mind
(Fool For Love: wrong; Normal Again: wrong)
Magic to break or
Magic to bring together
- Heartbreak free for all
(OMWF: wrong)
Look into my eyes
and if I taugh you well
know what is my name
(Homecoming: wrong)
Four tries for nothing
everyone think they know her
better than herself
(Something Blue: wrong)
In the big house
Mummy is recieving a guest
who's very hungry
(Angel: wrong)
[> [> Re: More haïkus not yet found -- GreatRewards, 13:22:16 06/11/02 Tue
In the big house
Mummy is recieving a guest
who's very hungry
Inca Mummy Girl???
[> [> [> I'm sorry NR, it's not Inca Mummy Girl. Try again. -- Ete, 13:32:35 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re: here's yet another haiku -- Brian, 14:32:32 06/11/02 Tue
Lock of binding love
Blessed by actions from above
Delivering hawk or dove
[> [> [> [> [> Re: here's yet another haiku with a corrected rhyme -- Brian, 05:42:35 06/12/02 Wed
Lock of binding love
Blessed by actions from above
Brings forth hawk or dove.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: here's yet another haiku with a corrected rhyme -- Deeva, 09:41:44 06/12/02 Wed
Primeval?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: here's yet another haiku with a corrected rhyme Nope! -- Brian, 11:04:34 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hint, please? -- Deeva, 11:16:17 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: More haïkus not yet found -- O'Cailleagh, 14:41:30 06/11/02 Tue
Is the first one 'Anne'?
[> [> [> no, Oc, (by the way, come over to chat) -- Ete, 14:55:33 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: More haïkus not yet found -- Rahael, 15:44:42 06/11/02 Tue
Look into my eyes
and if I taugh you well
know what is my name
A new man?
[> [> [> well found Rahael (and Bit too) -- Ete, 15:45:45 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Hinting -- Ete, 16:16:03 06/11/02 Tue
face to face meeting
with one long forgotten
leads to change of name
(Surprise: wrong)
HINT : that's a double ep
To chose between
One blind of insight and
One blind of mind
(Fool For Love: wrong; Normal Again: wrong)
HINT : the two blind ones are girls
Magic to break or
Magic to bring together
- Heartbreak free for all
(OMWF: wrong)
HINT : Magic shop
Four tries for nothing
everyone think they know her
better than herself
(Something Blue: wrong)
HINT : Four tries for the four parts of the ep
In the big house
Mummy is recieving a guest
who's very hungry
(Angel: wrong)
HINT : the hunger was sated; but not the way he expected it.
[> [> [> Re: Hinting -- Rahael, 16:29:53 06/11/02 Tue
face to face meeting
with one long forgotten
leads to change of name
(Surprise: wrong)
Who are you/THis year's Girl
Magic to break or
Magic to bring together
- Heartbreak free for all
Lover's Walk?
[> [> [> [> correct ! -- Ete, 16:32:23 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> Re: Hinting -- Doriander, 22:13:07 06/11/02 Tue
Four tries for nothing
everyone think they know her
better than herself
Life Serial?
[> [> [> [> well done Doriander you've found that one ! -- Ete, 04:24:20 06/12/02 Wed
[> Another one. -- Deeva, 15:15:25 06/11/02 Tue
Question and answer
A directorate challenged
Loath assent given
I sorta cheated on this one. I had been following the 5-7-5 syllable format. This one's more 5-8-5. I know bad, bad me!
[> [> Re: Another one. -- Ete, 15:21:28 06/11/02 Tue
Checkpoint ?
(come over to chat you too :)
[> [> [> That's it! -- Deeva, 15:26:57 06/11/02 Tue
Should I make these harder?
[> JUST FOR CLARIFICATION... -- GreatRewards, 15:26:18 06/11/02 Tue
Haiku is defined as a 3-line verse with 5 syllables in the first line, 7 syllables in the second line and 5 syllables in the 3rd line.
It does NOT have to rhyme. :-)
[> still more haïkus -- Ete, 16:35:02 06/11/02 Tue
Go orange Buffy !
Appearance is decieving
Evil is older
(two answers possible)
Do not see me
For I am ugly they say
But you saw me trully
Blood over the shirt
Who's better at pretending
Games of chains and mind
[> [> Re: still more haïkus -- Rahael, 16:42:29 06/11/02 Tue
Blood over the shirt
Who's better at pretending
Games of chains and mind
Enemies
[> [> [> correct answer for that one. -- Ete, 16:45:05 06/11/02 Tue
[> Another chat room stumper: -- LittleBit, 16:48:14 06/11/02 Tue
power in clothing
power in meditation
power in friendships
[> [> Re: Another chat room stumper: -- Rahael, 16:59:13 06/11/02 Tue
Revelations
[> [> [> Yay Rah! -- LittleBit, 17:11:11 06/11/02 Tue
[> Another one pt.2 -- Deeva, 17:04:01 06/11/02 Tue
Nothing is wrong
Controlled by another
What I have become
[> [> Re: Another one pt.2 -- Ete, 17:07:53 06/11/02 Tue
Smashed ?
[> [> [> Nope -- Deeva, 17:15:31 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re: Nope -- Ete, 17:19:36 06/11/02 Tue
Dead Things ?
[> [> [> [> [> That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! -- Deeva :oD, 21:06:07 06/11/02 Tue
[> New chat room stumper -- Ete, 17:45:51 06/11/02 Tue
to die or not to
if it's not i only want
to kiss you - oh no !
[> [> Re: New chat room stumper -- Rob, 19:17:35 06/11/02 Tue
Inca Mummy Girl?
Rob
[> [> [> Nope. -- Ete, 04:26:06 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: New chat room stumper -- Cactus Watcher, 06:27:33 06/12/02 Wed
Becoming, part 2?
[> [> [> nah -- Ete, 08:12:25 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: New chat room stumper -- Rob, 08:01:22 06/12/02 Wed
Graduation Day Part II?
Rob
[> [> [> neither ! -- Ete, 08:16:16 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: New chat room stumper -- Rob, 08:17:14 06/12/02 Wed
I Only Have Eyes for You?
Rob
[> [> [> still not it -- Ete, 08:46:16 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Wow, this one is a stumper! -- Rob, 09:12:42 06/12/02 Wed
Where the Wild Things Are?
If it isn't that one, perhaps a really little hint, please? ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> Nope + HINT ! -- Ete, 09:15:47 06/12/02 Wed
My first hint is that the passage I'm refering too could be nominated as the best redemptive scene of an otherwise lame episode (IMO at least)
[> [> Re: New chat room stumper -- ponygirl, 09:17:21 06/12/02 Wed
Reptile Boy?
[> [> [> Nah -- Ete, 10:06:57 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: New chat room stumper -- Deeva, 09:39:47 06/12/02 Wed
Intervention?
[> [> [> It is not Intervention -- Ete, 10:08:44 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Trust me. You want BIG hints!!! ;););) -- LittleBit, 09:54:39 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> Yes, please. BIG, big hints. -- Deeva, 10:12:36 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> I second that! BIG hints, PLEASE! -- Rob, 10:25:27 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Re: I second that! BIG hints, PLEASE! -- Ete, 10:41:07 06/12/02 Wed
Well I don't know if it's a bigger hint...
"bared torso"
[> [> [> [> [> Is it... -- Rob, 10:50:07 06/12/02 Wed
...I Was Made to Love You?
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> nein -- Ete, 10:54:45 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're evil!!! LOL. -- Rob, 10:58:08 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> The other hint: -- LittleBit, 11:37:20 06/12/02 Wed
...dream
but think nightmare - extra hint from me :)
[> And one more, not so difficult -- LittleBit, 18:27:05 06/11/02 Tue
ancient enemies
bound by eternal conflict
destinies converge
[> Re: RESTARTING the HAIKU thread to make room for other postings (unresolved ones inside) -- Rob, 08:12:53 06/12/02 Wed
Feeling out of place,
staring at the mirror, but
no recognition.
Rob
[> [> Re: RESTARTING the HAIKU thread to make room for other postings (unresolved ones inside) -- Ete, 08:49:22 06/12/02 Wed
Who are you ?
[> [> [> Yup! -- Rob, 09:00:10 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: RESTARTING the HAIKU thread to make room for other postings (unresolved ones inside) -- Deeva, 09:04:06 06/12/02 Wed
Is it Who Are You?
[> [> [> Yup to you too! -- Rob, 09:06:28 06/12/02 Wed
[> Re: RESTARTING the HAIKU thread to make room for other postings (unresolved ones inside) -- Rob, 09:04:08 06/12/02 Wed
Illusions of light
shattered, dreams of happiness
slip through their fingers.
Rob
[> [> And another... -- Rob, 09:09:31 06/12/02 Wed
The Jedi Master
has failed in his ruse, but at
least the boy is safe.
Rob
[> [> [> Re: And another... -- Ete, 09:14:05 06/12/02 Wed
School Hard :)
("you were my sire, man, you were my... Yoda" the boy being Xander... nice one !)
[> [> [> [> Yup, you got it...and thanks! Tried to make that one a little tricky... -- Rob, 09:19:14 06/12/02 Wed
School Hard's been on my mind, since I just watched it last night in the DVD set.
I think that was probably one of the best, if not the best, introduction-of-a-villain episodes ever, on any TV show. It's definitely one of my fave all-time eps. JM and Juliet Landau were soooo perfect from the very start. Naughty Miss Polly! And of course, Joyce giving Spike that much-deserved whack to the head. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yup, you got it...and thanks! Tried to make that one a little tricky... -- Rob, 09:51:53 06/12/02 Wed
Shame on me! I meant Miss Edith!
Rob
[> Another attempt at a tricky one... -- Rob, 09:25:38 06/12/02 Wed
Birthdays are no fun.
Except for the chocolatey
Goodness. That can stay!
Rob
[> [> Re: Another attempt at a tricky one... -- Deeva, 11:35:24 06/12/02 Wed
Family
[> 2 quickies to add to the mix -- Deeva, 09:37:33 06/12/02 Wed
Childhood love, new love
No one let's her finish
Stop hammering please
One stinky slayer
Out damn grass stain! Out I say!
Can they be perfect?
[> [> Re: 2 quickies to add to the mix -- LittleBit, 09:51:42 06/12/02 Wed
Triangle & As You Were
[> [> [> Dead on, LittleBit! ;o) -- Deeva, 10:10:58 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: Haiku on the sly -- Brian, 09:55:40 06/12/02 Wed
More by each he stalks;
With bedroom eyes, still he mocks;
Angel beats the flock.
[> [> [> Re: Haiku on the sly -- Rob, 10:24:22 06/12/02 Wed
Passion?
Rob
[> [> [> Re: Haiku on the sly -- Arethusa, 10:36:09 06/12/02 Wed
I Fall To Pieces
[> [> [> [> Re: Haiku on the sly - Yup, you got it Arethusa -- Brian, 11:08:12 06/12/02 Wed
[> Try this one on for size! -- Rob, 10:35:32 06/12/02 Wed
Nummy treats to choose
from, a vampire's buffet! Blonde,
Brunette...all tasty!
Rob
P.S. Quick note--I was a little worried about the second line, since vampire sounds like it might have three syllables (vam-pie-er), which would make too many syllables for the second line, but, according to my dictionary, there are only two: vam-pire. So I apologize if I'm wrong and screwed up the format! Take it up with Merriam-Webster! ;o)
[> [> Re: Try this one on for size! -- Ete, 11:00:56 06/12/02 Wed
Is it Lie to Me ?
[> [> [> No, it is not! -- Rob, 11:02:32 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: Try this one on for size! -- LittleBit, 11:10:01 06/12/02 Wed
The Wish?
[> [> Re: Try this one on for size! -- Brian, 11:11:07 06/12/02 Wed
The Harvest?
[> [> [> Neither, LB and Brian! -- Rob, 11:16:44 06/12/02 Wed
[> Before I give it a rest for a while, here's one more... -- Rob, 10:52:03 06/12/02 Wed
Temporarily,
her sorrow's gone, except for
the horrible taste...
Rob
[> [> Re: Before I give it a rest for a while, here's one more... -- Arethusa, 10:56:42 06/12/02 Wed
Beer Bad
[> [> [> Nope...but you're on the right track. -- Rob, 11:00:05 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Re: Nope...but you're on the right track. -- Ete, 11:03:45 06/12/02 Wed
Wrecked ?
[> [> [> [> [> Nope... -- Rob, 11:15:16 06/12/02 Wed
..."Beer Bad" was closer.
Rob
[> [> Re: Before I give it a rest for a while, here's one more... -- Ete, 10:57:13 06/12/02 Wed
Tabula Rasa ?
[> [> [> Try again! -- Rob, 11:01:10 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Re: Try again! -- Arethusa, 11:19:30 06/12/02 Wed
The Wish? (Trying to think of beer episodes)
[> [> [> [> [> Woops. Missed post with above guess. Sorry -- Arethusa, 11:22:38 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: Before I give it a rest for a while, here's one more... -- Deeva, 11:23:20 06/12/02 Wed
Life Serial
[> [> [> YES!!! You win the six-pack! ;o) -- Rob, 11:26:12 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Cool! When can I collect that six-pack? -- Deeva, 11:28:43 06/12/02 Wed
Hopefully it's not the stuff from Beer Bad. Actually I prefer the harder stuff. Manhattan, anyone? ;o)
[> I think that this just might be the last one, guys. -- Deeva, 11:26:38 06/12/02 Wed
Who are you really
Bogeyman for little bads
Diving for the word
If any one is interested in more, ask. Not sure if the enthusiasm is still out there for these anymore.
Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Two (re-posted) -- LittleBit, 00:32:05 06/12/02 Wed
Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Two
[Preface: to avoid misunderstanding of the terms as I am choosing to use them, the Big Bad is the one who drives the season and the story arc; little bads are anyone/anything else, regardless of their degree of 'badness'.]
Season 2: Evil begins to grey and becomes personal.
The BIG BAD
In season 2 the Big Bad was Angelus. A vampire whose reputation for cruelty was legendary. The most vicious creature the Master ever met, and that's saying something. As Angelus, he has no conscience, no sense of much of anything other than the pleasure he derives from causing pain to others. And he is particularly adept at giving emotional and psychological pain. He prides himself on the artistry of it. He never surrounds himself with minions. While he does work with a small group of his family members, Drusilla, whom he sired, and Spike, who was sired by Drusilla, most of what he does is still accomplished on his own. He is alone when he finds Enyos, alone for Jenny; when he leaves the portraits, the fish, the roses he does so in solitude. Actual killing seems almost an afterthought. Perhaps he brings this from the wholesale annihilation of his family and home village: once they're dead, you can't get satisfaction from their reactions. He goes after the Scooby Gang but more to hurt Buffy who has made him feel emotions he despises, than against the Scoobies themselves. It is interesting to note that the only other Scooby he bothers with is Willow with whom he had developed, at the very least, a tentative friendship. He doesn't bother with Xander at all, even though he had an adversarial relationship with him at best. He does however, go after Enyos and Jenny directly, who are members of the clan that cursed him. They who could be seen as responsible for the century of torment he suffered. These two he killed in a spectacularly vicious manner, especially in the way with which he framed the discovery of each death. He looks for the greatest magnitude of destruction or pain he can bring. Quite a contrast to Angel. Angel had set himself squarely in opposition to everything Angelus embraces. He was growing in his ability to assist the Slayer and the Scooby Gang. He is beginning to open himself to emotions other than despair, self-loathing and tormented guilt. This very change, the one that allows him to redress the deeds of his past, to ease his pain, is the one that causes the return of the perpetrator of those deeds. The one thing Angel had in common with Angelus was Buffy. As Willow said, she was still the only thing he thought about. Souled or soulless, his strongest feelings were still reserved for her and her alone. While the season had its little bads there was through all of this the pervasive presence of Angelus, Spike and Drusilla. In the end, Buffy must accept Spike as an uneasy ally, and challenge Angelus in a final battle of Vampire vs. Slayer. And she slays, but the slaying turns intensely personal as Angelus gets his ultimate artistic revenge; she slays Angel.
VAMPIRES
Spike and Drusilla are the most notable of the little bads. It is they who initially challenge the Slayer in ways other vampires hadn't simply because they have a unique relationship and attitude toward themselves and their prey. They make excellent partners with Angelus, but stand effectively on their own as well. Spike removes the threat of the Anointed (or Annoying) one simply because he finds him, well, annoying, then takes over the leadership of the remaining vampires. The relationship between Spike and Drusilla shows the beginning of the graying of the evil. They are able to show affection for each other, which we were led to believe was not possible. They were found to "reek of humanity" by the Judge for their emotional connection. Spike is very much the opportunist, jumping the gun before the Night of St. Vigeus, going out into Ethan's chaos on Halloween, allowing Ford to set up the Lonely Ones Club for the kill, using Willy to capture Angel, using Buffy to regain Drusilla. Spike also shows qualities of a leader by delegating tasks to those who are competent to perform them, such as Dalton, who translates Du Lac's book of spells, and the Order of Taraka. But in counterpoint, many of his own schemes end up in failure simply because he cannot control his impulses or delay gratification. Drusilla is initially quite weak but the reports of her demise were greatly exaggerated. Her feyness adds a level to the insanity that makes her almost ethereal. It's easy to believe she was on the eve of taking vows - she retains an, albeit evil, spirituality. Drusilla shares with Angelus a talent for subtlety and a ruthlessness surpassed only by desire to create chaos. Her torture of Angel is superbly delicate, painful to both body and mind, yet always mindful of the need for Angel to remain alive. It is Drusilla who gives Dalton to the Judge; Dru who goes to the Magic Shop to find out what Jenny had purchased and kills the shopkeeper; Dru who obtains the tomb of Acathla, and kills the curator; Dru who goes to the High School library to get Giles and slays Kendra in the process. Her torture of Giles is exquisite; she invades and violates him in ways Angelus and Spike never even dreamed of. Drusilla enjoys the jealousy and rivalry generated between Spike and Angelus, and revels in exacerbating it whenever she can. Angelus joins her in this, the two of them tormenting Spike, who is in a wheelchair while recovering from the organ falling on him. The three of them make a truly unholy trio, each of them playing off the others, each trying to sow discord among the group, and by doing so sustain the balance of power within the group; Angelus over Drusilla over Spike, in a dysfunctional familial relationship.
There were also Absolom and Colin, the Anointed One, who furthered the Master's agenda, and tried to restore him. They needed the blood (and death) of everyone who was near the Master when he was killed, thus endangering Giles, Jenny, Cordelia and Willow. Although the Anointed One is now the Master of the Order of Aurelius, he needs Absolom and his eloquence to assist his leadership. His leadership is tenuous and based on his being the one prophesied. Their attempt to restore the Master was crucial to Buffy's ability to come to terms with her own death at the Master's hands.
The Gorch brothers came into town looking for some fun. Found something else. Lyle finds a Slayer and has the good sense to run, Tector finds the inside of the Bezoar. The interaction between the two of them is so immature that it is a wonder they have lasted so long. Perhaps there is a good-ole boy luck of the vampire in effect for them, at least until they get to Sunnydale. Their recognition of Angel as Angelus helps to give us more of a sense of Angelus' reputation.
DEMONS
Machida, the embodiment of greed, was the reason for the long line of successful Zeta Kappa alumni. He had corrupted generations who gained financial success through the sacrifice of innocent victims. He's fairly straightforward as demons go: give me the sacrifice I require at regular intervals and I will grant you your avaricious desires. Finally vanquished (with no help from the Guys!-Buffy!-Snake!-Basement!-Now! group), all of the granted wealth and power dissolves.
The Judge was one of the more potentially intriguing demons, ages old, defeated, dismembered, yet not dead, whose purpose is to "rid the Earth of the plague of humanity." Once re-assembled he had the ability to "separate the righteous from the wicked and to burn the righteous down." He would spare only those with no spark of humanity. The first victims he attempts are Spike and Drusilla because of their affection for each other, but this attempt is deflected by Spike, and he is then offered Dalton instead. The books describe him and the battle that finally contained him; "no weapon forged" could kill him. Only the technological advances of our time, and the sheer luck of Xander dressing as a soldier boy for Halloween, allow Buffy to defeat him by blowing him to bits with a rocket launcher. Seriously dismembered, but still not necessarily destroyed. The Judge very nearly rids us of Buffy and Angel, and the aftermath of that encounter returns Angelus to the scene. It is the Judge who gives us confirmation of two important points: the humanity within Spike and Drusilla, and the total lack of humanity within Angelus.
MONSTERS
Daryl Epps is revived by his brother in a horribly disfigured state. He is both unwilling to re-enter society looking like this (his pre-death self was defined by his looks and athletic & sexual prowess) and to shun society in solitude. He was able to convince his brother to provide him with a female companion. Daryl was a reluctant monster; he never asked for his continued existence but in light of its being thrust upon him didn't insist on having it reversed either. He crosses the line eventually into evil when he insists that the companion be finished regardless of what is necessary to do this successfully (the acquisition of a head that has not been embalmed, i.e. a fresh kill). Daryl is an example of the natural order regarding life and death and why it is dangerous to attempt to subvert it.
Ampata the Inca Mummy Girl only wanted a chance to live after being buried alive for half a century as a sacrifice for her people. She was entombed and buried alive never to die, retaining her consciousness and was able to hear what people were saying when she was 'touring.' In Ampata's case she was not necessarily a willing sacrifice, and wanted the chance to be a normal girl. Unfortunately, the only way she could live was to take the life of another: Rodney, the real Ampata, her guardian, attempts at both Jonathan and Willow. She does have some of the experiences she wants with Xander when they fall in love at first smite. He is instantly smitten; she wants this very much. She is stopped only because Buffy and Xander delay her long enough that the re-mummification weakens her so that she can't overpower Xander, whom she is ultimately willing to kill for her own survival. Buffy sees something of herself here in the way Ampata was used by her people for their own survival while being denied any chance at a normal existence for all eternity.
Ted - the (potential) ultimate evil step-parent, insinuates himself into Buffy's life and then makes clear his intent to control her. If he can't control her then he intends to remove her from her life to make room for him. Buffy's instincts about him were quite accurate from the beginning but no one believed that she wasn't acting from jealousy. All assumed that her issues with him were simply because her mother was dating him. His drugging of all but her (only because she was too stubborn to eat his treats) gave her no one to talk to who would believe her after Ted threatened her. But when Buffy believed she had killed him, she cooperated with the police, told the truth to them. Ted's world was controlled and orderly with nothing and no one out of line. His speech was archaic, pure 1950's, as were his attitudes. Ted was Buffy's first confrontation with the possibility that she could kill a human with her Slayer strength out of nothing more than anger. That Ted turned out to be a robot could, however, explain why she was able to do it; perhaps she did 'recognize' his non-humanity.
The Bezoars were another very pervasive evil for humans. With the exception of Xander, whose paternal instincts left everything to be desired, and Buffy, whose Slayer speed and strength kept her safe, the entire school population, staff, students and visitors, were taken over by the baby bezoars and set to work to free the mother. Willow and Cordelia took Xander and Buffy out of action by attacking them unexpectedly. Giles infects Joyce. The bezoars appeared to have a form of collective consciousness in that everyone is often carrying out the same tasks, yet when necessary the mother bezoar is able to communicate specific instructions to individuals. The bezoars are intriguing in that they weren't of demonic origin, but were organic, possibly indigenous, creatures who may have been mutated by the energy of the Hellmouth, or not. In this case, it could be argued that the humans were just as evil from the viewpoint of the bezoars.
Der Kinderstaad, one of the more frightening monsters, had been encountered by Buffy when she was quite young and her cousin, Celia, was in the hospital. Buffy had even watched it kill, but didn't know what she was seeing. Since he is discernible only when the victims are most vulnerable, Buffy must put herself at risk in order to see and defeat the child-killer. It is not clear what kind of monster the child-killer is other than clearly predatory. He feeds on the life-force of his victims, and apparently had determined to take the course of least resistance in doing so, which was a wise choice on his part. Although, children are not his only victims: he also removes adults who stand in his way or are in a position to reduce his ready energy source. When he faces the Slayer, sick though she is, he faces a strength he had never faced before; she still has the ability to defeat and destroy him. Buffy is able to face and destroy an old enemy that had defeated her when she was a child because she couldn't see what was happening and couldn't understand. This allows her to avenge her cousin and remove the threat to other children.
The Amphibian Monsters were created when the swim team 'over-dosed' on a fish DNA steroids and metamorphosed into mammal/fish hybrids which can function both in and out of the water (thus, amphibians). The swimmers who used the most were the first to change, but if nothing had stopped the process eventually all of them would have transformed, including the newest member of the team, Xander. In the 'tadpole' stage they are changing beneath the human skin, then achieve their mature form by breaking out of the confining form through the skin. They are predators (the DNA used could also be considered predator) and when fully transformed have only the instincts of the new form. They are not actually defeated, but allowed to go into the ocean. While they are all male, it should not be assumed that this means they cannot reproduce, especially with the mystical energy of the Hellmouth involved in their existence. Trying to obtain the championship without truly winning it, subverting the process that should be necessary to achieve the goal, when weighed against the consequences is shown to be a far greater price than putting in the effort required to gain it legitimately.
POSSESSION
Eyghon the Sleepwalker who returns to those who once summoned him and then attempted to kill him, including Giles. Ethan Rayne is back once again, as one of the group who, with Giles (Ripper), summoned Eyghon. The three others in the small group, five in all, have been dealt with. Eyghon possesses their dead bodies long enough to get to the next victim but hadn't found a suitable permanent host. The demon attempts permanent possession of Jenny and is thwarted by the unique and most likely unprecedented method of allowing two demons to fight it out for possession of a host; Angel threatens fatal damage to the host body (Jenny) causing the demon to jump to the nearest dead body: Angel. Eyghon lost the battle to a well-entrenched vampiric demon who was "Just waitin' for a good fight." Eyghon crumbles into dust. He wasn't a match for the demon in Angel. Eyghon forces Giles to reveal more of his past and his nature than he wished, but allowed a valuable insight inot his character.
The ghosts of James and Grace haunted the halls of Sunnydale High. They weren't seen in current times until the revival of the event that coincided with their deaths: the Sadie Hawkins Dance. Once again, James and Grace are fated to play out their tragic night. Only this time, Buffy becomes involved. She 'sees' the real events in bits and pieces. Things begin to happen in the school that do not reflect the replaying of the murder/suicide. These happenings are of the sort that literally call for the intervention of the Slayer. It is actually not clear which of them is responsible for this. It is generally believed that James was responsible, but a case could be made for Grace doing this. It is Grace who wants to forgive James, to relieve his pain, to allow him to move on. For this to happen she needs the Slayer and the Vampire. She needs to block Willow's spell because binding James would only result in stasis. She surrounds the school with an impassable barrier (thus also preventing more innocent victims) that will allow only Buffy and Angel to pass. The roles are reversed. This is no longer an inevitable re-enactment. Buffy/James 'kills' Angel/Grace, but Angel cannot be killed by gunshot, thus freeing Grace to intervene at last and end the cycle. It is Buffy who recognizes why the two are still bound to the school, and in her comment that James' act does not deserve forgiveness, she reveals how she feels about herself in relation to Angel/Angelus. When James uses her as his representative and she experiences Grace's love and forgiveness and the release of the anger and hurt that tied them here, she is give a beginning to forgiving herself for Angelus, a realization that Angel would forgive her.
The Order of Taraka is a mix of demons and humans who are bounty hunters. They hire out as assassins and don't stop until the job is complete. If the ones originally assigned to the job fail, others simply come in their place until the task is successfully completed. They exhibit a complete disregard for anything other than completion of their mission. The demons involved in the Order are a much more sophisticated variety, far above see-kill-eat. The humans who join are also of a particular type; willing to hunt and kill other humans for a price, possibly just for the satisfaction of getting the job done. The rules are simple: do whatever it takes. The consequences are equally direct: if you succeed, you live, if you don't, you're already dead. For some the simplicity of this has it's attraction. It is not clear why they were called off, unless perhaps finances played into it. In the confrontations with the Order, we find Angel learning that Buffy has completely accepted his vampiric side, Buffy and Kendra working together with a common agenda, and Xander and Cordelia discovering that they don't exactly hate each other.
HUMANS
Chris Epps and Eric, the Doctors Frankenstein of Sunnydale, have revived Chris' brother Daryl and are now assembling a female companion for him from parts of dead girls. They encounter a problem however in the necessity of acquiring a head, with no fresh death in sight and time running out. Chris balks at
killing someone but Eric moves blithely along by showing Daryl pictures of Cordelia, Buffy and Willow for Daryl to pick his favorite. Chris is unable to carry out the abduction and assists Buffy in saving Cordelia. Eric, however, sees only his own agenda, which happens to coincide with Daryl's. He wants to create the girl of his/Daryl's dreams just to see if he can. In the end, we don't really know what happens to them except that Chris and Eric both survived. We find that while the two worked together on the same project with the same outcome in mind, their motivations were polar opposites: Chris did it out of love for his brother; Eric did it because he could, out of contempt for those who couldn't.
The Zeta Kappa Frat boys, and all their esteemed alumni, were a long-standing evil. For at least half a century they had consorted with the demon Machida to bring them fortune and power without effort. They were wealthy, charming and lethal. No conscience bothered any of them regarding what was necessary to continue their success. They corrupted generation after generation, each succeeding class indoctrinating the next. They show us how shallow and insubstantial these things are in the absence of any real effort; and also give Cordelia her start into becoming someone of more substance.
Ethan Rayne is more of an enigma. It is not only unclear exactly what power he is invoking (Janus the Roman God? Chaos?), but what his purpose is. He wreaks havoc among those who wear his costumes. They become what they are dressed as in mind and body. Their physical and mental abilities are completely altered. But Ethan remains in the back room of his store taking no advantage of the chaos he has brought forth, unless his purpose was to see what would happen. Being beaten into submission by Rupert (Ripper) Giles was not likely what he had in mind. In some ways this is some of the purest evil we've seen - bringing chaos forth just to see what it would do. When trying to avoid Eyghon, his motives are much clearer: remove the mark from himself and place it on someone else. This is an act of self-preservation by finding a substitute target, since Eyghon is drawn by the Mark, not by the bearer. In the ensuing chaos, Ethan, being no fool, runs. Ethan continues to give us insights into Giles' background and character that the self-effacing Watcher/librarian wouldn't ordinarily divulge.
Billy Fordham wanted to become a vampire so he won't completely die. To achieve this he was prepared to set up a group a innocent fools to be killed while he arranged that he alone would be turned. Ford was Buffy's crush in 5th grade and obviously a friend who knew her fairly well. He is both sympathetic and villainous at the same time. One can understand why he wants what he does, but not that he's willing to bring so many sacrificial lambs to the slaughter in order to gain it. It's not entirely clear why he didn't just have the blonde vampire turn him in return for not staking her, instead of just making her tell him where he could find the vampires lair. In allowing her to go free, he is also indirectly responsible for Drusilla's recovery, as it is the book she takes from the library that contains the ritual to restore Dru's strength. It may be that he's so drawn to the tradition that he has to have his ritual, must be turned by the leader, must have all the right things said. And in the end, he gets what he wants and the Slayer is waiting. Billy's case is particularly sad because we can understand his despair, his desire to have a life to live. What we, and Buffy, can't forgive is his willingness to have so many other die for him to survive.
Cain the hunter, hunted for sport and profit. Having been prohibited from hunting elephants he turned to an entirely unprotected species for which he found a lucrative market. He has no doubts about what he does; for him it's a job that satisfies him. He rationalizes killing the human aspect of the werewolf in several ways: only killing while it is in wolf form (although granted - no pelt in human form), killing the werewolf prevents it from making future kills (death penalty versus imprisonment), they are animals and therefore subject to his whims. He is not defeated in the end, nor does he learn anything (except maybe not to underestimate little girls); he simply has to take his predations to a different venue. Cain is a villain with no moral code, no ethics, no compassion, who hunts because he's good at it, with no regard for the rules unless they impact the market for his kills.
Coach Marin wants success so badly that he is willing to achieve it regardless of the cost. He has managed to produce a 'steroid' that will enhance his swim team's performance in the pool. He uses his boys as alpha test subjects, with or without their permission. When it becomes clear that there are 'serious side effects' he ignores them. As the boys metamorphose one by one, his only real concern is that he's having trouble fielding enough swimmers to have a competitive team. He still 'takes care' of his changed boys by feeding them and providing for other needs when possible. He has absolutely no conscience regarding his actions with the boys, or those he's willing to take to keep his activities unchallenged. He murders the school nurse, he tries to do so to Buffy, and is willing to take out Xander, but Xander is ready for him. He is finally killed by his own 'boys' when he swings at a rescued Buffy and falls into the water after she trips him; the amphibian monsters attack and kill him.
Willy is the stereotype of the show. Opportunist, sneak, squealer, stooge. He's always on the lookout for the best deal, and would cross, double-cross and triple-cross anyone for the right price. He professes his loyalty, exudes his fear, but both of these are only of the moment, and when the next chance comes by, the circumstances alter to fit it. He provides a hangout for the (H)ST's of Sunnydale, but doesn't exclude humans. The only rule at Willy's seems to be "don't do your fighting in here."
And of course, Principal Snyder, who just won't go away. He's more active this season, involving himself with Buffy the delinquent and her gang of ne'er-do-wells. He's more directly related to causing harm to others. In School Hard, it is at his instigation that the window is opened and one life lost. If he had not insisted that Buffy 'volunteer' for the Halloween safety program, she might have been able to prevent some of the damage caused. He encouraged Coach Marin to continue his enhancement program so he could brag at the principals' meetings and required Willow to give a passing grade to one of the swimmers so he would remain eligible. And not to forget his statement to the police when they arrest Buffy at the scene of Kendra's death, and his expelling of her in the final episode. It is this season when we learn of his purpose at the school and his involvement with the mayor. We learn that he, and the police, know about the Hellmouth.
And the other bads of this season in BBB and Phases - Buffy's friends, Oz, Xander, Amy, even Giles. In these episodes, the damage that was done was unintentional. In Oz's case it was, as much as can ever be, innocent damage. And only because he takes two whole days to figure out that the werewolf might be him, after his cousin Jordy, who doesn't like to be tickled, bit him. He tries to restrain himself for the third night but is unintentionally prevented by Willow. He then willingly submits to being caged for the safety of others during his change. Xander's case is different. He intends harm, just not the harm that results. Amy is brought into Xander's plan by blackmail, but what is the subject of the blackmail? Casual use of witchcraft for personal gain. Xander wants revenge. Thank the heavens there wasn't a male vengeance demon wandering around Sunnydale at the time. Amy submits to the blackmail rather than recognize that what she was doing, casual magic for her own benefit, was wrong. Amy also doesn't hesitate to use transformation, once successfully, once prevented, against those she saw as rivals. Giles was one of the group who summoned Eyghon and then created more problems by trying to keep the group out of it. If he had told Buffy what was happening, the group might have been more prepared when they were attacked in the library; if he had told them more about Ethan, Buffy might have had more caution in dealing with him. But to do so he would have had to reveal parts of his past that no longer fit with his perception of himself as he is now: the Watcher, the keeper of the knowledge, the sage.
The evil faced in season 2 is less black and white. This time, there are still the vampires, monsters, demons, possession and evil humans. But another layer is added. This time it's personal. Angel becomes Angelus; now we have a Big Bad whose motives are examined. Buffy and Angel are used to exorcise the HS ghosts and their personal relationship is reflected cruelly. Two schoolmates, one of whom is a friend of Willow's, attempt the murder of Cordelia to create a Bride of Frankenstein. Billy Fordham was a crush of Buffy's in fifth grade who is now willing to sacrifice others to ensure his longevity. Giles' past comes back to endanger them all when he is unwilling to share it. Ted is romancing her mother, and insinuating himself into her home life. The frat boys present themselves as friendly college boys who are interested in Cordelia and Buffy, neither of whom find this unlikely, then become dates from hell. Amy is a friend of theirs. Oz is beginning to develop a romance with Willow, and is, of them all, the one who most takes responsibility for himself. Xander betrayed them all with his desire for revenge on Cordelia. Willow and Cordelia appear to turn on Buffy and Xander when they are under the influence of the Bezoars. Most of the swim team, including someone she went out with, turned into monsters. Machida, Daryl Epps, the amphibian monsters and Eyghon were brought to Sunnydale through human machination. Even Buffy's mother is taken aback when she learns that Buffy is the Slayer and slow to adjust to the significance of the calling. The evil faced this season is most significant. It is not clear cut. It forces the Slayer and the Watcher as well as the Scoobies to reassess their vision of evil, since it now includes themselves, as well as demons who show humanity. In the end, Buffy is reft and bereft; not welcome at home, expelled from school; not knowing how Angel had returned, knowing only that she had sent him into hell. Again, the ultimate revenge for Angelus: no weapons, no friends, no hope. In the end, just Buffy.
Your feedback is welcomed!
[> Great post! Missed it the first round...here's some responses -- shadowkat, 18:13:26 06/12/02 Wed
1. Angelus as Big Bad. I love your point about how Angelus forms a small vampire family and does not really surround himself with minions. While he does have them at the end to help in the large campaigns - most of his evil he does personally. Similar to Spike and Dru who also tend to act personally. While the other big bads tend to send out minions to do their dirty work. With the exception of the Order of Taraka - Spike tends to like to do it himself. I think he used the Taraka, because he didn't have time to waste on buffy while he was trying to heal Dru, Dru was first priority.
Angelus - reminds me of Humpert Humpert (sp?) in Lolita.
The older man/teacher obsessed with the teenage girl. Upon sleeping with her - he goes insane. Angelus is a dark Giles - which is why it is almost fitting that Giles is the one he captures and tortures in Becoming PArt I and Giles is the one he hurts the most by killing Jenny. He did not just kill Jenny b/c of the soul or as revenge on her clan - he also did it for Giles - after all he goes to a great deal of effort to set up his little gift - one of the creepiest and horrific things anyone has done on Btvs. Upon finding out about this little scheme - Spike tells him he's nuts. But Spike is Angelus's son here - I honestly think Whedon had Angelus the sire of Dru and Spike up until Season 3, when he changed his mind and decided to do something different with the characters. Not that it matters - Angelus plays a dark father figure/watcher to them both.
You mention that Angelus doesn't bother with Xander - actually he does. Twice. The first time in BBB - where
he literally pulls Xander out a window. Xander would have been dead if Dru hadn't saved him. An ironic twist to that love spell if there ever was one. (I pray they bring Dru back and have her try to vamp Xander again... in Season 7 and have Spike save him - would great/ironic closure to more than one character subplot. Doubt it will happen, but I can dream.) the second time is in epiosde with the hospital demon, Angelus comes to visit Buffy in the hospital, Xander stops him and he baits Xander. He also attack Cordy in front of Xander.
It's interesting that Angel treats Buffy as fragile girl,
a daughter and lover, taking her ice skating and Angelus treats her like a possession, a doll to torment. Both act like versions of the teacher.
The metaphor of Angel/Angelus - is the kind teacher you have that crush on who turns evil once you sleep with him, trying to possess and destroy you. A metaphor that is echoed by James and Grace, where the roles are reversed and instead of the teacher with the cruel obsession, the student has it. Obsessive love seems to be a constant theme on Btvs.
2. Spike and Dru symbolized Lust metaphorically. Incestuous lust - since they were clearly supposed to be brother and sister vampires. Still incestuous after it is revealed Spike is Dru's vamp child. The dark side of love. Dirty.
3. The Judge - this is order at it's most evil. The Judge represents authority - the righteous preacher who burns you because you do not follow his preachings. Or for committing the mortal sin of sex. He tries to kill Spike and Dru because of their affection and jealousy = you will pay if you have sex, I judge you not worthy. It is fitting that Angel becomes Angelus after he and Buffy run into the judge and sleep together. Angelus breaks things off with Buffy, desireing to destroy all affection and love - the judge forgives him finds him clean and worthy.
4. Then we have the monsters who would do anything for love
or affection, even if it meant taking life: Daryl and Ampata
who lust after Cordy and Xander respectively. Fitting that
Xander and Cordy get together not too long afterwards - lusting after one another, kissing in secret and cutting each other up with words in public.
5. Ted is the first of the robots. The first male one, to be followed in season 6 with the Warrenbot. Ted reminds me of Bluebeard story - the male version of the black widow.
In Bluebeard - he chopped off each wife's head before she could leave him - hmmm similar to King Henry the 8th. Joyce gets involved with the nice, orderly, predictable guy only to discover he's a homicidal robot - even for grownups, love
can be cruel.
6. Bezoars - hive mentality. Reminded me of Alien. The idea of being impregnated by an egg. Sex = baby or parasite who takes over your body and makes you do it's bidding. Gee tend to agree with Xander - being a parent is not a good.
Also made great fun of that home ec class a lot of people took in high school.
7. Der Kinderstaad - sucking the innocence out of the child. Only children can see him. Also once again death appears to happen with a kiss. This demon sucks out life with a kiss just like Ampata.
8. Eyghon - the demon jumps from person to person like an infection - insistent on infecting those with the tattoo.
Makes me wonder if this is the metaphor for Sexually Transmitted Disease or Aides - which are transmitted through needles? Rayne gives the tatoo to Buffy via said tatoo, thus infecting her until Angel saves the day - he is already infected, vampires are the result of an infection remember - so the two infections literally battle it out inside Angel. The older one winning!
Season 2 was all about sex, the problems of sex, group mentality, and competition. Great stuff.
Well that's it. Great post. Hope I added to the discussion.
[> [> Humbert Humbert -- Dead Soul, 20:55:37 06/12/02 Wed
The Buffy Cosmology- Sort Of -- Wizardman, 04:00:14 06/12/02 Wed
First of all, I would like to state that this collection of my thoughts will be somewhat incomplete, as a I am more of a 'Buffy' watcher than an 'Angel' watcher. That being said, here goes:
A post or religion in the Bronze ( the Official Buffy Posting Board) got me thinking. It asked whether any of the characters, besides Willow- Jewish- and Tara- Wiccan- were religious. As I said, it got me thinking. And in my thoughts, I entered onto a tangent- the presence of higher powers in the Jossverse.
As we have seen, the Jossverse is very supernaturally oriented- Humans rub shoulders with Vampires, Werewolves, Demons, Trolls, etc. We have also seen gods, or at least beings with godlike power. Buffy has even fought one of them- Glorificus, aka. Glory.
But of all of these beings, the most powerful seem to be the First Evil, and the Powers That Be. These are the absolutes: good and evil, with the universe- THAT universe, at least- as the battleground.
(This is where I begin to get vague and speculative- to my knowledge, the Powers have a major presence on Angel, which I did not start watching until the middle of this past season, so I will be speculating based on what I do know. If I say anytthing that has been directly contradicted, that is why, and please let me know.)
The Powers may just be called that to avoid showing religious favouritism, but I believe that they are referred to as plural because they are a group of beings of more or less equal power who lead the forces of goodness through consensus and harmony (obviously not OUR Harmony, although if Cordelia is now a higher being, then who knows...). By contrast, the First Evil is alone, a being who dominates others with no regards to their thoughts and opinions. In other words, they resemble democracy and autocracy.
Operating on this theory, then the First is trying to dominate the Jossverse, whereas the Powers tries to keep it free to choose its own fate. In the mix, there are a number of neutral or undecided parties- demons among others. All of these neutral/undecided parties are working to their own agendas, which may or may not coincide with those of the First or the PTB. These beings are from other dimensions/universes, either directly- exiles ie. Glory-, or indirectly- through racial origin ie. vampires.
Both the PTB and the First know that these neutral forces are a factor, and both try to work around them, or even to enlist them. This is where Angel- the character- comes in. It can be no accident that Whistler ( a demon himself) went to Angel to persuade him to help Buffy. This implies that the PTB had their eyes on him as a possible recruit. Even after his reversion to Angelus and return to/from grace/Hell, he was still a candidate (this could have even cemented him in their eyes). Enter the First. What did the First want? For Angel to go back to being evil. To what purpose? To serve the First, knowingly or not. Failing this, the First was willing to have Angel die, to deprive the PTB of his service. But Angel eventually chose life, and to make amends for his actions, which resulted in him being picked as a Champion. (Or perhaps, resulted in him choosing to be a Champion, if the PTB had picked him from the get-go).
But all of this ignores the human factor, and since the planet has a heck of a lot of humans, overlooking them would be a mistake. The PTB have Champions, handpicked to fight evil. But do only Champions fight supernatural evil? Of course not. This is where the Slayer comes in. I have been led to believe that the First Slayer, and her spiritual daughters, were the result of a spell cast by a number of powerful shamans in order to create a warrior to fight against the darkness. (We all know how it goes: In each generation...) This is important because it shows that humans are willing to take control of their own destinies. It is vital to note that the Slayer has nothing to do with either the First or the PTB. In her purest form, she is as neutral as the Vampires she fights. She exists to kick Vamp ass. But we all know that there's more to them that that. 'The cause' can lead to Slayers like Faith, whose raw unbridled passion helped contribute to her fall; to Slayers like Kendra, who were so devoted to the Cause that they didn't truly live; and to Slayers like Buffy, who balanced duty with passion and love to become a true protector of the world- not just from Vampires, but from any who would destroy it. The PTB can work around the first two types, but probably work with the third type. But even though they may work with the "Type 3" Slayers, they don't do so openly, or often, perhaps because they view a Slayer as doing the most good when she follows her own path. They save their meddling and direction for their Champions, which only makes sense- I mean, they are Champions OF the PTB's. In the same way, the First could probably work with a Slayer like Faith, but mostly ignores Slayers on the whole, maybe for the same reasons as the PTB.
Well, this wraps up my little discussion on my thoughts on the Cosmology of the Jossverse. As I said, if I'm wrong about something, it is through ignorance, and please tell me so! This was just my attempt at making the 'Cosmic' side of the Jossverse make sense- why the PTB are such a presence on Angel, but not present in Buffy. Just my two cents worth. Please tell me what you think!
[> Counter Cosmology (Speculative S7 Spoilers) -- Darby, 05:49:52 06/12/02 Wed
As we're being shown (some might say force-fed) this season, the Jossverse is only black-and-white if you buy into the propaganda - there's lots of lip service but very little evidence for absolute Good or Evil. I believe that our Champions are caught in a demon civil war for earthly territory, being used as pawns by being told what they want to hear about how the world works.
I've often said that I think that the PTB are a force that exists in the Buffyverse only in those areas where the Angelverse intersects it, and that they arose overtly as a path for Angel out of Hell. I also believe that the First Evil was a manifestation of the PTB designed to test Angel's willingness to commit to their anti-vampire, anti-"bad" demon side - when he was found worthy but driven to suicide, they intervened with the snow (I know, radical interpretation of the text, but it does fit).
This demonic war also leaves the shows somewhere to go - keep in mind, Buffy is supposed to be returning to the spirit of the first season, but fighting a Big Bad Vamp is a worn gig - we need some major mojo to get the Scooby Gang back to kicking butt with abandon. What better season arc than to slowly let them learn their true position in things, and drive them to an ultimate conflict with both sides?
And on a side note that will probably hijack the thread, I (as a non-believer) think that the Jossverse has too little religion in it, and what does exist is mostly primitive cultism - as a representation of a semi-real world, I don't think that you can ignore the ubiquity of religion - no one in Sunnydale ever seems to evoke reactions you'd expect from members of any major organized religion. It was one of Babylon 5's strength that they occasionally focussed on things from the religious perspective of the characters, and treated sincere belief with great respect, raising interesting questions, but I don't see that really happening on Joss' shows.
[> [> Re: Counter Cosmology (Speculative S7 Spoilers) -- skpe, 07:36:25 06/12/02 Wed
How do you fit in something like Skip? Which seems to indicate
That the PTBs run the punishment hells. And what is their relation to the hell dimensions?
[> [> [> Re: Counter Cosmology (Speculative S7 Spoilers) -- Darby, 09:33:01 06/12/02 Wed
It's like any conflict - just because someone is evil doesn't mean their actions benefit the "evil" side. Look at Wolfram & Hart's vacillation vis-a-vis dealing with Angel. At times he seems important to their side, although lately the focus has shifted to Connor. But I think that the PTB are less able to manifest on "this side" than the other guys, and are using more non-demonic agents in a holding action until they can take a more direct approach. Hey, it's less complicated than the mess on the X Files...
There was a reason Skip's bosses wanted Billy locked up - as an agent for W&H he was some sort of threat to them. He certainly had the capability of affecting the balance of power.
I kind of like how Skip has seemed more ominous, less clearly "on the side of the Angels" (can you believe I had that written before I noticed the pun?) every time he reappears.
[> Slayers and the Powers -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:04:27 06/12/02 Wed
I think there is a very simple reason why the Powers That Be don't interfere with Buffy much:
Each Slayer comes from a line of warriors dating back millenia. At first, the Powers probably had to guide them a lot. But, with time, the Watchers came around and developed a Council to train the Slayers. Granted, the Council seems to be filled with a lot of jerks, and they're morally ambiguous in some cases, but they provide a lot of good. They inform the Slayer of her calling, train her to be a warrior, supply knowledge of the supernatural world, etc. The Powers don't get involved with the Slayers because there is a mortal institution in place that does the job of guiding the Slayer sufficiently.
Meanwhile, Angel is a freak. He is the only vampire with a soul (that we know of). There is no council or guides or anything set up to prepare and lead good vampires in the fight against evil. Therefore, the Powers That Be need to get involved or else they won't have a souled vampire to fight for their cause.
Also, I dislike the notion that the Powers That Be are supposed to be a force of good. It is quite likely that the First Evil (if that was really the First instead of just a magic induced hallucination) is one of the Powers. Most likely, there are good Powers, evil Powers, and grey Powers, forming alliances with some of their kind and fighting against others.
[> [> Re: Slayers and the Powers -- O'Cailleagh, 13:38:30 06/12/02 Wed
I feel its most probable that the PTB are just that, the Powers That Be. They just are, rarely interfering in the events of 'mortals' unless specifically requested to (and then their help is indirect), or if the events will affect them in some way.
Really good series of essays on each character -- SingedCat, 05:58:25 06/12/02 Wed
http://dianamichelle.5u.com/host/jacksee/home.html
[> Looks good. Thanks for the link. -- Deeva, 09:33:06 06/12/02 Wed
Blood Ties… Yet Another Connection between Spike and Dawn? -- K-Dizzy, 06:44:25 06/12/02 Wed
Is Dawn related to Spike? Time will tell, but until then, consider these additional "random" parallels… Coincidence, you say?
Contrast the events of "Fool for Love" and "Blood Ties." In both situations, an extremely sensitive individual (William/Dawn) is brutally rejected by those whom they most love: Cecily to William's face, while Dawn overhears Buffy and Joyce talking and assumes the worst. The real William (a good man) and "real me" Dawn (a teenage human) are inherently diminished and not seen: he's "beneath" Cecily, and Dawn's not "family, we don't even know what she is." Totally devastated, both rip up their writings, where they have revealed their deepest emotions and true selves (his poetry, her diaries), and crying, run out into the dark, dangerous night.
Both are initially found by nice people (Drusilla, Ben) who try to comfort them. And then both watch as said person literally morphs into an evil hell-bitch (vampire Drusilla, Glory) right before their startled, confused eyes. Both Drusilla and Glory use odd turns of phrase and are a bit mentally unstable, both want something of value that can be found in William/Dawn. Dru wants a devoted knight, and sees potential in William's vision, glory, spirit and imagination; Glory wants the Key to return home, to secure her freedom and unlimited power. Both conversations, interestingly, also involve the search for something transcendent: Drusilla speaks of William wanting "something glowing and glistening; something... effulgent," while Glory is looking for a "bright… swirly, shimmer," what Spike called a "mystical, glowy, key thing."
Both characters are forever changed by these momentous encounters. Both lose the casual, comfortable, security of their human lives/realities, and learn about hidden aspects of their nature. And both gain a new identity as creatures of unrealized power and agents/symbols of barely-contained chaos… William becomes the undead vampire, Spike, killer of slayers, and Dawn learns of her undeniable heritage as the Key, able and destined to break down the very walls between dimensions....
Again, Spike has always seen the best of Buffy- her spirit and spunk- in Dawn. No weeping in deserted alleyways for her... when Dawn is crushed by the loss of her mother, she takes proactive "bitty Buffy" steps to remedy the situation. But if Dawn is also made from the vampire, will this be revealed, and when it is, what will the "parent" Spike think when he recognizes the qualities he most despised about William (observant, emotional, extremely sensitive) in the child, Dawn? Accepting her means eventually accepting whatever's left of William in him…. And yeah, this sounds like a compelling connection to be explored, and interesting story to be told!
[> Re: Blood Ties - Spoilers for all eps aired in the US -- Rahael, 07:01:06 06/12/02 Wed
Great post, with so many good points!
Both Spike and Dawn are also incredibly ambivalent/ambigous characters. They have something about the unknown, the uncharacterisable about them.
For example the "am I good or am I evil" conversation that they have (I forget the ep).
The fact that they stand squarely on the line of moral ambiguity is reflected within their very bodies themselves - Dawn, as you point out is energy made flesh, whose essense is to break down boundaries and walls.
Spike is a paradox - being dead/alive. So much about Buffy is the breaking down of boundaries/hierarchies/dichotomies.
Dawn as you point out is a very dynamic character - goes out and does things, such as find Rack, or try to ressurrect Joyce. So is Spike, always having a plan, preferring doing to musty ritual, going out to Africa to be what he once was.
[> Re: Spoiler -- LeeAnn, 08:40:04 06/12/02 Wed
Very nice comparison. Maybe Spike really is Dawn's genetic father like some spoilers say.
Joss speaks about Season 7!! (specific season 6 spoilers, and more vague season 7 spoilers) -- Rob, 07:43:48 06/12/02 Wed
I got this article from http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-06/11/13.00.tv :
"Joss Whedon, whose Buffy the Vampire Slayer took home the Saturn Award for best network television series, told SCI FI Wire that he will move production to England for the seventh-season premiere episode. 'I am going to England ... in a couple of weeks to shoot some second-unit with Tony [Head, who plays Giles,] and Alyson [Hannigan, who plays Willow,] for the season premiere of Buffy,' Whedon told reporters after receiving his award June 10 in Los Angeles. 'So that'll be fun. Our first production values ever. We're very excited. Usually it's 'So we're in Venice. Hand me that goblet.' So it's a thing.'"
"As for next year's storyline for the UPN series, Whedon remained coy, but promised a change from this year's dark themes. 'I can only tell you a little bit,' he said. 'This is something I've been sort of gearing towards since the very beginning of the show. It's a question of bringing it onto a much larger scale and at the same time making it much more personal and much more personal to Buffy herself. This year was a chance to let the other characters [shine.] ... The big climactic scene [was] between Xander and Willow, and that was because, as characters and as actors, they'd earned that opportunity. And I thought it was right for them to sort of be the spokespeople for what was going on at the end there. But next year Buffy will be much less peripheral to the climax. The climax will be the biggest thing we've ever done.'
"Whedon added, 'You know, every year it might be the end. Except, actually, this year. This year I really did sort of leave it up in the air. You could have said this could have been an end, but the [cliffhanger] with Spike and the thing on Angel, this was sort of the exception to the rule. But I am looking for closure next year in way because we're making a more positive statement. This year was just about surviving the year. Sometimes the audience felt that actually it's their chore too. What? You don't want to be depressed all the time like me? I don't understand. But next year is something that's a lot more positive and definitive. And in that it has to end with an exclamation point, not a question mark.'"
---------------------------------------------------------
What is he gearing towards?!? I'm personally hoping for an exploration into the mythology points on the show that were never fully explained--how the Watcher's Council works, how much power do they really have, how a Slayer is called, how they know which girl is the Slayer, where Slayer power comes from, etc etc.
What do you guys think?
Rob
[> Re: Joss speaks about Season 7!! (specific season 6 spoilers, and more vague season 7 spoilers) -- ponygirl, 07:56:54 06/12/02 Wed
Oooh! It does sound like the long-hinted origin of the Slayers type of arc. The big climax also makes me think of that old comment Joss made about his original plan to end everything, back when he didn't think the series would last past 5 years, was to have Sunnydale sucked into hell. But in a positive way. Ok. Well, this will certainly make me say hmm for the next few months.
[> [> Re: Joss speaks about Season 7!! (specific season 6 spoilers, and more vague season 7 spoilers) -- alcibiades, 09:10:00 06/12/02 Wed
I think they set up what next year would be about in the Finale.
Buffy told Giles, wtte of "I still don't know why I was pulled back fro heaven to live again."
We certainly didn't find out last year, all she did was fight the fact that she was back. Next year, we will find out. Plus, how Spike will be necessary in that fight.
[> [> [> Re: Joss speaks about Season 7!! (specific season 6 spoilers, and more vague season 7 spoilers) -- Dedalus, 09:39:07 06/12/02 Wed
Veerrrrryyyy interesting. Thanks for posting that Rob.
Hmm. Biggest finale ever, huh?
[> [> [> [> You're welcome...I was intrigued as well. ;o) -- Rob, 12:21:07 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> Re: Joss speaks about Season 7!! (specific season 6 spoilers, and more vague season 7 spoilers) -- maddog, 08:16:48 06/13/02 Thu
Or more importantly for Spike, why having a soul is necessary in that fight.
[> The Red Axe (Fray spoilers, Buffy spoilers, my imagination spoilers) -- darrenK, 09:37:26 06/12/02 Wed
Joss has also said that he'd be doing some filming in England, including the first episode which ,supposedly, he's going to write and direct.
This points to the Slayer legend be explored, maybe even in the headquarters of the Watcher's council?
Him saying that next year's climax would be the "biggest thing they've ever done" dovetails with SMG's recent comments saying that they want the show to end with a bang. He's not saying it's the last season, but you can sniff around his comments and see that that's what he means.
These vague hints definitely click with the past talked about in Fray--the big showdown, the demons being locked behind a door that looked mysteriously like the one that Glory tried to open and the recent heavy handed reminders that little Dawny is the "Key to the future of the universe."
And if the season (show ender) is going to be bigger than the Graduation Day battle and bigger than The Gift, then I think Buffy will indeed be going to war.
In Fray, that demon, whose name I can't remember--Urrkon?, said that the Slayer has to be a leader in time of war.
I don't think Joss planted that line or that plotline accidently. And even if he came up with it for Fray, it's too juicy not to pursue.
I think we're going to be seeing that Red Axe very soon...
[> [> Biggest finale ever: Hell(mouth) on Earth? -- cjl, 09:57:22 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Red Axe? -- skeeve, 10:16:19 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> Re: Red Axe? -- Dochawk, 11:44:14 06/12/02 Wed
from memory havne't read frey for awhile:
The Red Axe is given to our herione/slayer Frey by her watcher ukron. He tells her that it is a weapon that has been weilded by slayers for time in memoriam, especially at times of war with demons. It looks suspiciuosly like the axe (but not exactly) that Buffy uses as Anne to defeat the underworld demons. She left it behind then. Most people don't think it was the same though.
[> [> Giving a Shove & Shutting the Door (spoilers, spoilers, spoilers) -- Darby, 11:09:34 06/12/02 Wed
If the Fray depiction of events (by some Slayer sometime in this century) is carried out, the Buffyverse becomes the realverse - all demons and magicks get banished. That kills the cash cows of Angel (before the magic syndication number of 100 shows) and the much-hinted-at Buffy spin-off that Marti Noxon is supposedly developing (Fray would be too expensive as a tv series and probably too oblique to get made as a movie). And Joss permanently trashes his own private universe, which isn't easy.
It does set up Xander Harris, Bingo Champion as a possibility, though...
[> [> [> Or bowling champion (he has his own shoes) -- Vickie, 12:51:04 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> Unless... -- Rob, 12:56:32 06/12/02 Wed
..the other seasons of "Angel" and whatever other spin-offs take place before the end of "Buffy." That timeline, though, could be very hard, if not impossible to keep. But, hey, M*A*S*H made the Korean War stretch out to 11 years. So ya never know...
Rob
[> [> [> [> Hellmouth open/Hellmouth closed -- darrenK, 13:23:56 06/12/02 Wed
The events in Fray are told to Melaka by Urquon the demon. They do not necessary hold true word for word, that's just the way Urquon tells it.
It's certainly possible that the demon dimensions are shut off from our universe at the end of Buffy, but that those demons who are hybrids or were already here are not affected and must be hunted down. That would certainly give purpose to a spin-off show. It would also give Angel investigations something to do.
Personally, I think that it'll be like the Hellmouth open/Hellmouth closed phenomenon. Originally we are told that vampires are the only demons--demon hybrids--left on Earth, but soon there seem to be all sorts of demons here (LA seems to have a 1:1 human demon ratio) and that's with the Hellmouth CLOSED. What difference does it really make what the Hellmouth is doing considering how permeable the doors between dimensions seem to be? I have a feeling that Buffy could permanantly close the door to the Hell dimensions and there will still be a caveat that lets demons and the supernatural continue to operate.
Either that or the end will be problem specific e.g., a demon army wants to break through to this dimension and Buffy will find a way to seal it out.
There are a million explanations and I have a feeling that they will find one that satisfies the needs of Angel, Fray and Buffy while still giving Buffy a big finish.
dK
[> [> [> [> [> Demon/human ratio -- Cleanthes, 07:50:55 06/13/02 Thu
(LA seems to have a 1:1 human demon ratio)
Yeah, don't you hate inaccuracies like this? The last time I was in LA, the demons had the humans outnumbered at least 10-1. Okay, I only drove through on the freeway and I suppose that's where the demons congregate, but still...
[> [> other Joss Notes (Real Spoilers for season 7) -- Dochawk, 11:37:26 06/12/02 Wed
I didn't post another part of the same interview yesterday because I thought it was too spoilery for the main board (as Masq noted when she accidentally read it). Cinescape seems to be milking this interview for about 5 articles.
In one of them he talks about filming in England. Only Alyson and Anthony Stewart Head are going with Joss to England. This strongly suggests not more info about the watchers council, but the healing of Willow at the hands of the Witches Coven in Dovor. I really really like what this plot line represents, but my fascination with slayer history really wants to know more about that too. (Of course nothing says he can't shoot WC stuff at the same time)
[> [> [> You sure of that Doc?............;) -- Rufus, 18:06:20 06/12/02 Wed
[> Unstoppable Army of Slayers! -- Wizardman, 15:04:53 06/12/02 Wed
Hmmm... the finale will be bigger, and yet more personal to Buffy herself. I read on a post on the Bronze a while back that a possible 'big bang' for the finale would be for Buffy to lead the entire town of Sunnydale into battle against demons from the Hellmouth ala "Graduation Day." I like that, but I can think of a similar idea that will top even that. What if Buffy were to lead the spirits of her predecessors into battle? Think about it- an army of kick-ass spirit warriors led by our favourite Slayer. Or, to take it further and shift it a little bit, what if it's Buffy's job to fight the Big Bad all alone, and it falls to everyone else to protect her while she does it, or at least fend off demons so that the fight is Slayer-a-mano. That fight would be big, as it could conceivably involve not just the Scoobies, but could give the writers a reason to do a one-time crossover with the Fang Gang (especially if this is the last season) as well as my conceived Slayer army. And who would lead the Slayers? Well, its been awhile since we've seen Faith... What do you think?
[> 'You know, every year it might be the end -- Q, 18:50:14 06/12/02 Wed
> Except, actually, this year. This year I really did sort of leave it up in the air. You could have said this could have been an end, but the [cliffhanger] with Spike and the thing on Angel, this was sort of the exception to the rule.<
I kind of disagree with this statement. I feel that Season 4 would have been an awful ending! Let's look:
Season 1. A good ending to the show. If it would have ended here we could have just supposed that this was about a slayer being drawn by fate to Sunnydale to stop the masters ascension, after succeeding-- the parts of the story we need to know are over.
Season 2. A TRAGIC ending-- but it would have worked as an ending. Buffy can't take anymore and runs away to never slay again. Depressing, but could have been an END.
Season 3. Suppose the show was meant to be a horror metaphor of HIGH SCHOOL LIFE, and the stories of a high school vampire slayer. It makes sense that when the school blew up, the parts of the story we need to know were concluded, and the series could have EASILY ended here.
Season 4. This is the one I can't see being the end. There wasn't ANY closure at all. It wasn't the end of a phase of their life like season 3. It wasn't the end of the slayers story, like season 2 could have been. And since we had more than one season, it couldn't have ended with the closing of one story like season one did. Not to mention Restless was CHOCK FULL of hints of what's to come... I disagree with Joss that this could have been the end, at least not a GOOD end.
Season 5. Couldn't have picked a better ending. The most giant saving of the world EVER-- and the end of our slayer. I'm shocked that that WASN'T the end!
Season 6. Like season 4-- this seems more like a "just begun" than an end.
Joss' comments on "what happened to Angel" makes it sound like he tries to wrap up Angel each year too, but I TOTALLY disagree. Not a SINGLE season of Angel finished with a good series ender!
[> [> Re: 'You know, every year it might be the end -- Dochawk, 22:24:43 06/12/02 Wed
Season 4 and Season 6 were the two years that Joss had a pickup before the season started. he knew already there was anotehr season, so I don't think he meant it quite literally the way you are taking it. I think he thought of season4 and 5 as a 44 episode arc and 6/7 as a 44 episode arc.
AGAIN RESTARTING THE HAIKU THREAD! -- Rob, 11:37:48 06/12/02 Wed
Here are the ones of mine that are not yet answered:
Nummy treats to choose
from, a vampire's buffet! Blonde,
Brunette...all tasty!
So far, 3 incorrect guesses: Lie to Me, The Wish, and The Harvest.
--------------------------
Birthdays are no fun.
Except for the chocolatey
Goodness. That can stay!
--------------------------
Illusions of light
shattered, dreams of happiness
slip through their fingers.
---------------------------
Ete's Unanswered Ones:
to die or not to
if it's not i only want
to kiss you - oh no !
Incorrect Guesses so far: Inca Mummy Girl, Becoming II, Graduation Day II, I Only Have Eyes for You, Where the Wild Things Are, Reptile Boy, Intervention, I Was Made to Love You
Hints: My first hint is that the passage I'm refering too could be nominated as the best redemptive scene of an otherwise lame episode (IMO at least)
and
"bared torso"
----------------------------
Go orange Buffy !
Appearance is decieving
Evil is older
(two answers possible)
----------------------
Do not see me
For I am ugly they say
But you saw me trully
----------------------
Brian's Unanswered One:
Lock of binding love
Blessed by actions from above
Brings forth hawk or dove.
Incorrect Guess: Primeval
Now, continue, everybody!
Rob
[> And Deeva's new one... -- Rob, 11:39:00 06/12/02 Wed
Who are you really
Bogeyman for little bads
Diving for the word
[> [> Re: And Deeva's new one... -- Doriander, 12:24:49 06/12/02 Wed
Doomed?
[> [> [> Yay for you, Doriander! -- Deeva, 12:56:08 06/12/02 Wed
[> Thanks Rob --- You beat me to it! :D -- LittleBit, 11:45:23 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> You're welcome! It took a while, but it really had to be done, didn't it? ;o) -- Rob, 11:57:18 06/12/02 Wed
[> Rob, is your first one... -- JCC, 11:49:42 06/12/02 Wed
Homecoming?
The slayer buffet one.
[> [> No! Here's a hint... -- Rob, 11:55:45 06/12/02 Wed
The most important word in the poem, as related to the episode, is "choose".
Rob
[> [> [> Oh, for crying out loud! -- Deeva, 11:59:50 06/12/02 Wed
is it Choices!
[> [> [> [> Sorry! Here's another hint... -- Rob, 12:01:43 06/12/02 Wed
Here are the three most important words in the poem:
Choose.
Blonde.
Brunette.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sorry! Here's another hint... -- Ete, 14:00:01 06/12/02 Wed
Is it Ennemies ?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Good guess...but, unfortunately, still wrong! -- Rob, 14:15:37 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Re: Rob, is your first one... -- shadowkat, 19:06:07 06/12/02 Wed
I think this was answered below but Crush.
[> [> [> Yup! :o) -- Rob, 20:11:26 06/12/02 Wed
[> The Birthday one... -- Deeva, 11:52:14 06/12/02 Wed
is it Family?
[> [> Nuh-uh! But here's a hint for this one... -- Rob, 11:58:58 06/12/02 Wed
The birthday is not as important as the chocolately goodness.
Rob
[> [> [> Re: Nuh-uh! But here's a hint for this one... -- Deeva, 12:01:34 06/12/02 Wed
Older and Far Away
[> [> [> [> No, there wasn't quite enough chocolately goodness in that one... -- Rob, 12:03:42 06/12/02 Wed
The birthday in question in the ep this poem refers to is NOT the main focus of the episode. In fact, we do not actually see the birthday in this ep. It is (mostly) only discussed.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Re: No, there wasn't quite enough chocolately goodness in that one... -- Doriander, 12:23:05 06/12/02 Wed
Is it Nightmares? (Xander's b-day)
[> [> [> [> [> [> YES!!!! -- Rob, 12:25:59 06/12/02 Wed
Xander's b-day when he was a little kid...
which was "no fun" because of the clown that scared the bejesus out of him...
But on the bright side, there was the chocolately goodness...those chocolate bars he loved so much that he found scattered on the floor.
Rob
[> Ete's "The to die or not to"... -- Deeva, 11:57:28 06/12/02 Wed
I can't think of the name of the episode but is it the one where Spike has the dream/nightmare of him loving Buffy?
[> [> Yes! Yay you!!! -- LittleBit, 12:07:59 06/12/02 Wed
I had an absolute blind spot for it, and it's one of my favorite moments!!
[> [> [> I was thinking "Lover's Walk"... -- Rob, 12:12:32 06/12/02 Wed
...with the "we could die" and then the kiss and then "oh, no" since Cordelia walked in.
Oh, well!
Rob
[> [> [> d'oh! -- ponygirl, 12:22:07 06/12/02 Wed
Out Of My Mind! Do I feel dumb now! Though Ete, I don't think it's a lame episode, lots of good moments/lines, Riley in pain, always something I like to see, and of course the final scene is the lovely chewy centre!
[> [> [> [> Yeah, I agree... -- Rob, 12:24:27 06/12/02 Wed
...I liked that episode, too, especially the force-the-Initiative-doctor-to-remove-the-chip subplot, and Harmony deciding she should smoke, because she's evil now, and that's what villains do.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Bravo Deeva ! -- Ete, 13:37:47 06/12/02 Wed
I love OOMM, but really only for the dream and a few of the Spike passage. The cheesiness of Riley and his machismo is quite unbearable to me. And I'm not a big Riley hater... it's just... oh bored.
Well, it also has one of my favorite Tara/Willow moment... what are you looking at... your hand. Cute :)
Or maybe it's my fascination with tarot.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Tank you, tank you veddy much! -- Deeva, bowing and curtsying ;o), 20:08:48 06/12/02 Wed
[> Re: AGAIN RESTARTING THE HAIKU THREAD! -- Doriander, 12:37:02 06/12/02 Wed
Nummy treats to choose
from, a vampire's buffet! Blonde,
Brunette...all tasty!
All the Way?
Go orange Buffy !
Appearance is decieving
Evil is older
Er, Doublemeat Palace?
Do not see me
For I am ugly they say
But you saw me trully
FFL?
[> [> Wrong on the first one...Can't say about the other 2, since I didn't write them. :o) -- Rob, 12:54:38 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> answers -- LittleBit, 13:09:50 06/12/02 Wed
two out of three: Rob's and Doublemeat Palace
[> [> Re: AGAIN RESTARTING THE HAIKU THREAD! -- shadowkat, 19:09:50 06/12/02 Wed
Go orange Buffy !
Appearance is decieving
Evil is older
Actually - Witch from Season 1 also works better there.
Buffy in orange cheerleader custom and does Go! Go! Go!
Appearence decieving - think it's Amy, actually her mom.
And evil is older - actually is Amy's mom.
[> Ete... -- Rob, 13:28:48 06/12/02 Wed
Is the "Go Orange Buffy!" one "Hell's Bells"?
Rob
[> [> Nope Rob -- Ete, 13:34:07 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> Well then how about -- Deeva, 14:19:29 06/12/02 Wed
As You Were
[> [> [> [> nah -- Ete, 14:50:34 06/12/02 Wed
[> #6 answer is... -- GreatRewards, 14:03:30 06/12/02 Wed
Family.
-----------------
Do not see me
For I am ugly they say
But you saw me trully
-------------------
[> [> yeah ! -- Ete, 14:14:43 06/12/02 Wed
[> Another clue for the "nummy treats" one -- Rob, 14:18:04 06/12/02 Wed
Who says "Nummy treats"?
Tie that in to "Choose...blonde...brunette".
And then you'll have the answer...
Rob
[> [> Last attempt -- Doriander, 14:20:50 06/12/02 Wed
Crush?
[> [> [> That's it!!! :oD -- Rob, 20:12:40 06/12/02 Wed
[> Here's one for one of my favorite episodes! -- GreatRewards, 14:56:48 06/12/02 Wed
Too good to be true.
Won't stand for that malarkey.
Putt putt, anyone?
[> [> Ted? -- Doriander (fresh from S2 DVD marathon), 15:09:00 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> Yup! -- GreatRewards, 08:53:57 06/13/02 Thu
[> This is getting addictive... -- Doriander, 15:22:23 06/12/02 Wed
Illusions of light
shattered, dreams of happiness
slip through their fingers.
Hell's Bells?
[> [> You got it! -- Rob, 20:37:51 06/12/02 Wed
[> Re: AGAIN RESTARTING THE HAIKU THREAD! -- Rob, 20:40:49 06/12/02 Wed
Do my eyes deceive
me with double-vision or
is it true? But how?
Rob
[> [> Re: AGAIN RESTARTING THE HAIKU THREAD! -- Deeva, 21:03:13 06/12/02 Wed
The Replacement
[> [> [> Yup! -- Rob, 08:13:06 06/13/02 Thu
[> One more before bedtime! -- Rob, 20:52:00 06/12/02 Wed
A flock waits for its
saviors, welcoming them in.
Anne Rice would be proud.
Rob
[> [> Re: One more before bedtime! -- Deeva, 21:09:59 06/12/02 Wed
Lie to Me
[> [> [> You beat me to it, dammit! -- Addict!Doriander, 21:25:44 06/12/02 Wed
Was it you or me who was turned into a rat one time ;) Say, I'm jonesing for a new one. Got any? I think Rack!Rob won't be supplying till tomorrow.
[> [> [> [> Rack!Rob....lol. You need a fix? Here's one! -- Rack!Rob, 08:16:16 06/13/02 Thu
Balance has shifted.
Now I am the strong one, who'll
nurse you back to health.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Rack!Rob....lol. You need a fix? Here's one! -- Doriander, 08:33:03 06/13/02 Thu
What's My Line 2? Do I get a cookie?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes you do! -- Rob, 08:33:44 06/13/02 Thu
[> [> [> YES! -- Rob, 08:12:01 06/13/02 Thu
[> [> Re: One more before bedtime! -- Junkie!Doriander, 21:16:44 06/12/02 Wed
Do my eyes deceive
me with double-vision or
is it true? But how?
Too vague! (grumble, grumble, pout) I've several answers for this one, but seeing as this aired this week, I'll go with "Afterlife".
A flock waits for its
saviors, welcoming them in.
Anne Rice would be proud.
Lie To Me?
Careful Rob, I'm in danger of becoming Dark!Doriander when this thread dies. ;)
[> And another... -- Rob, 08:42:11 06/13/02 Thu
Come take your nasty
medication; you'll feel all
better! Down the hatch!
Rob
[> [> Helpless? -- Doriander, 08:45:08 06/13/02 Thu
[> [> [> Wow, you're good at this! -- Rob, 08:50:40 06/13/02 Thu
[> [> Re: And another... -- Deeva, 08:47:26 06/13/02 Thu
Normal Again
[> One for the morning -- Deeva, 08:52:31 06/13/02 Thu
Cleansing the abode
Shiny piece of temptation
Soon to melt away
[> [> Re: One for the morning -- Rob, 08:55:18 06/13/02 Thu
Gone?
Rob
[> [> [> Abso-freakin-lutely! -- Deeva, 09:02:46 06/13/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> Yay! Oh, and by the way... -- Rob, 09:06:26 06/13/02 Thu
...that one was awesome! Loved the "melt away" thing, about Willow's left-over magic candle!
For a little while, I thought the "cleanse the abode" thing might be about the burning of Spike's crypt in "As You Were," but the demon eggs weren't exactly melting! lol
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> I wasn't thinking about the candle... -- Deeva, 09:20:10 06/13/02 Thu
I was thinking about how if Buffy didn't un-invisible herself, she would melt away like the traffic cone/pudding. That's the neat thing about these haikus, interpretation is all in the way you read it. BTW, I think there's only a handful of us playing now, makes me feel a tiny bit guilty.
[> Here's a new one. -- Rob, 09:04:08 06/13/02 Thu
Miraculous dark!
You stand here triumphant, as
the night breathes its last.
Rob
[> [> Re: Here's a new one. -- LittleBit, 09:15:47 06/13/02 Thu
Amends?
[> [> [> Yes. :o) -- Rob, 09:20:19 06/13/02 Thu
[> And another... -- Rob, 09:24:48 06/13/02 Thu
fear grips my soul, for
just one look, and I knew the
countdown had begun
Rob
[> [> Just to finish it off, the answer to my above one is... -- Rob, 10:50:09 06/13/02 Thu
...Villains.
Been fun playing, guys!
Rob
[> LET'S END IT HERE -- LittleBit, 09:27:46 06/13/02 Thu
It's been fun, but time to stop playing.
[> [> But what about with the fun? ;o) -- Rob, 09:59:12 06/13/02 Thu
[> [> Re: LET'S END IT HERE -- Ronia, 10:00:27 06/13/02 Thu
Don't want to wear it out do we now... :0)
[> [> Ok mom. ;o) -- Deeva, 10:19:12 06/13/02 Thu
[> [> [> Re: Ending the game - OK -- Brian, 11:24:51 06/13/02 Thu
Lock of binding love
Blessed by actions from above
Brings forth hawk or dove.
Is Lullaby
[> [> Re: LET'S END IT HERE -- cat, 13:53:26 06/13/02 Thu
A diffrent slayer
out of hist'ry's cold dead past
wreaks havoc to feel
>>>Answer<<<
Incan Mummy Girl
Dawn and Connor -- Wizardman, 03:14:23 06/13/02 Thu
One thing that I have seen on the Net that involves both of the 'Jossverse' shows involves a potential relationship: that of Dawn and Connor. There are a number of people who believe that the two should romantically hook up, at least for a while. There are a number of reasons why I think that this might be a good idea, even if it never happens- and probably won't.
1: Just to get this part over with... there is an almost soap operatic quality to the idea- after all, they are the younger sister and the only son of Buffy and Angel, respectively, which is one of TV's most famous doomed romances. Seeing how Joss & Co. would handle this aspect would be hilarious- and then probably emotionally rending (this is ME we are dealing with here, after all...)
2: The two characters have a fair bit in common. For various reasons, both characters are far older than they should be- Dawn is technically almost two, and Connor technically 6 months or so. Also, they both have had major issues with their parental figure this past year- Dawn's with Buffy's emotional paralysis, Connor with Angel's... well, Angel's EVERYTHING. Both acted out against said figure, although Connor did so in a rather... dramatic way. In a way, both also dealt with their issues- Dawn in a lasting way, Connor in a temporary way (I can't wait until he finds out the truth about Holtz's death, even as I simultaneously almost hope that he doesn't- he's been through too much already). And finally, although both characters may be seen as somewhat unlikeable because of their actions (ie. kleptomania and constant whining and/or locking their loving father in box and dumping said box into the ocean), both have had VERY crappy lives. Think about it- first Dawn finds out that she is not real, then her mother dies, then she finds out that she can potentially destroy the entire universe, then her sister sacrifices herself to save her... and that's all before she turned one! After all that, her sister returns to her, only she's only a pale shadow of the Buffy that was, her first crush turns out to be a vampire who tries to kill her, she is almost abducted by a singing, dancing demon to be his queen, and the list goes on. As for Connor, he was taken away from his loving family, and raised by a vengeance crazed man in Hell (okay, Quortoth, but its close enough I'm sure), only to return to the dimension of his birth trying to kill his birth father, only to have his adoptive father commit suicide in a manner that frames his real father, whom Connor was just beginning to feel good about, leading Connor to wreak vengeance in a manner that will leave him with even more issues when he discovers the truth. Angstville, here we come!
3: Finally we get to the way in which they are most similar- both are very special beings: the Key Between the Dimensions, and the Miracle Child. Dawn should not exist as she does, and Connor should not exist at all. In Spiral, we are told that the Key represents Ultimate Power. Throughout most of this season of Angel, we are told that the Miracle Child represents Ultimate Possibility. Think about it- Ultimate Power, and Ultimate Possibility. When I heard a rumour- which still may come true- that Dawn was going to get new powers, I thought that she would be learning to actively control the powers of the Key- in fact, I thought that her Key-ness would be what brought Buffy back, or at least helped. And Connor, as the son of two- ensouled- Vampires, posesses great physical strength, is incredibly tough, and has almost inhuman reflexes. And all of this before he grow to full maturity! He can- and probably will- get much better. Now, think of what these two might accomplish together. Ultimate Power, and Ultimate Possibility- together, Dawn and Connor may destroy the entire world several times over... or become two of its greatest protectors.
Finally, they may be good for each other. A relationship with an ordinary person is probably impractical for both of them. Also, they could 'get' each other- both know what it is to be special, and otherwise alone. And Dawn would probably get a chance to balance out her karma by giving Connor the type of support which she once needed and received. Having someone around to provide comfort while not being too emotionally close to what happened (Angel-in-a-box) would be good for Connor, and Dawn needs friends who both know about the dangers of the Hellmouth AND are her's alone- not just Buffy's- not that I'm knocking Dawn's friendships with the Scoobies, but they DID all start out being Buffy's friends, and Dawn needs a few of her own.
As always, please tell me what you think!
Spread the Buffy character love! -- Rob, 12:31:38 06/13/02 Thu
A lot of people who watch "Buffy" will say they love everybody in the story except for...(fill in the blank: Buffy, Xander, Willow, etc etc).
I have personally never disliked any of the characters...In fact, besides Riley, who I had reservations about (okay, maybe I disliked him lol), I adore every character on the show. Except the people I'm not supposed to adore...like Warren grr aargh.
Anyway, please respond if you also love every character on "Buffy." Yes, all of them are capable of being very unlikable...but even, when they do something unlikable, it only makes them more human in my opinion. A recent example--Xander, who got a lot of flack for his behavior at the wedding and his anger at Spike, etc. I was not happy with his character there, but I still love the guy. Same goes for Willow, whose actions were a tad bit more overboard than his. ;o)
Friends in RL can do crappy things, and we still forgive them. I feel the same way about my "Buffy" characters.
Any one else agree with me?
Rob
[> I'm in the same boat with you, Rob. -- Deeva, 12:47:03 06/13/02 Thu
Though I may profess a slight bias towards Spike and may cringe when Dawn whines, (for a while there it was everytime she was on screen!) but over all I like everybody.
[> [> I agree... -- Rob, 13:31:07 06/13/02 Thu
Dawn did bug me a bit around the middle of this year, but I'm back to liking her, ever since she shifted from Me!Me!Me!Dawn to Empathetic!Dawn...and especially after "Grave." Although I will admit to snickering during Willow's verbal attack of her at Rack's place.
Rob
[> Joining in: I love every character in BUFFY -- cjl, 13:01:37 06/13/02 Thu
I even liked Riley. Yes, he was a straight-arrow from Iowa, but I found that a refreshing contrast to our usual gang of oddballs.
Dawn has been a bit underwritten and whiny this year, but MT has been doing a great job, and I anticipate great things from her as the mysteries of the Key are explored in Season 7.
Xander. I've been rooting for him since the beginning. Same with Willow. One year of temporary insanity on both their parts isn't going to stop the love.
Spike packs more fun, angst, and snarkiness than we deserve in one character. James Marsters has just been amazing. He does anything Joss throws at him and keeps coming back for more. Anya's character has been expanding in remarkable directions since the wedding. EC all but dominated "Grave." Can't wait to see which way she goes in Season 7.
I miss Giles badly. When he came in at the end of "Two to Go," my group of Buffyphiles yelled so loudly, we couldn't hear his dramatic "I'd like to test that theory" line of dialogue.
Bring back Jonathan!
Did I miss anybody?
Oh. Right.
Buffy. She's great, too.
[> Me too! Me too! -- Belladonna, 13:02:04 06/13/02 Thu
I have always loved every character. Okay, okay...except Riley! ;) Even when Xander is at his most irritating, I still love him! Though Dawn has bugged the *bleep* out of me sometimes, I still like her. I agree that when they are not at their best, it just makes them more believable and well-rounded characters. So...I'll spread the Buffy Character Love! :)
[> I agree... and about Warren... -- Tillow, 14:13:33 06/13/02 Thu
...man what a creep, huh? He's like one of the only human characters I never felt any sympathy for. But seeing Adam Busch this weekend (CreepCon) kinda wrecked my head. That guy is crazy (the good kind). It was great to see him and have all thoughts of maniacal misogynistic Warren completely obliterated in under 5 minutes. Of course I know these people are not the characters they play but her is like, the anti-Warren. You know, like on Seinfeld.
And Yes... spreading the love.... warm vibes...
Tillow
[> [> Re: Warren - I actually felt pity for him -- Dyna, 15:38:44 06/13/02 Thu
During the scene at the Bronze in Seeing Red, when Warren says to the jock guy--"That thing with the underwear? God, I thought I'd never stop crying"--that really bothered me. It was easy to forget, as the LoD seemed to have so much power at times, how much their evil was the product of the bullying and ostracism they'd experienced as high school geeks. Warren was all about trying to rectify past humiliations, to get some of his own back from those who'd made him feel helpless and insignificant. Buffy joined that club when she symbolically emasculated him ("smashed his orbs") at the amusement park, an act that seemed to finally make his snap. "Did you think I'd let you do that to me? That I'd let you get away with it? Think again--"
What the LoD really brought to mind for me was how bullying begets bullying, and victims become victimizers. So even as I hated what Warren did, I didn't exactly hate Warren. I could see how he got where he was, and was affected by that.
I actually think it's impossible to really hate a well-written, well-acted character. Two-dimensional villains, yes, but how often do we get those on BtVS?
[> [> [> Re: Warren - Spoilers S3, S6 to finale. -- Age, 18:24:55 06/13/02 Thu
I think Whedon's aim has been to show consequences. It's easy and illusory to simply divide the world into good and evil. It's much harder and more accurate to see the various forces that shape us, like neglectful and adolescent parents or peer pressure or misogynist culture. Whether Whedon is using a character like Warren or Cordy from seasons one to three, or Xander from 'OMWF' or Buffy from 'Normal Again' or Willow, with Warren at the end of season six having, in his desire not to grow up, stepped over the line that Willow was about to cross, his aim is to show the human being.
The hardest thing in this world is to live in it, and not die as human and revert to animal instinct like the vampires. Whedon is highlighting the forces that shape us in order to reinforce our ability to use the limited awareness and will we do possess as we make choices in our lives. Personally, I think that the concept of free will (free of what?) is an abstraction; will and awareness are always limited and we are always attached to something. But if patterns of life are highlighted, then at least we have a better means of making choices. At some point we have to take responsibility for what we are, if only because that which has shaped us, the world, isn't really separate from us. Of course adolescence, adulthood, taking responsibility etc are only concepts; where is it written down that we do have to become more responsible and let go of play? But, of course, Whedon is making this very point with the three nerds in season six, and showing us the consequences of such thinking.
As for the characters. I love them all. I especially liked Cordy in the first three seasons. There was this sense of a human being just bursting to come out. In a different way, perhaps, this role was taken over by Spike.
Age.
[> [> [> I agree -- Malandanza, 21:05:26 06/13/02 Thu
"During the scene at the Bronze in Seeing Red, when Warren says to the jock guy--'That thing with the underwear? God, I thought I'd never stop crying'--that really bothered me. It was easy to forget, as the LoD seemed to have so much power at times, how much their evil was the product of the bullying and ostracism they'd experienced as high school geeks"
Of course, Warren was evil -- no amount of suffering he's felt could make his actions in Season 6 acceptable. But at the same time, Warren as a suddenly powerful ex-victim becoming the bully he always hated makes his actions understandable. In fact, that scene in the Bronze reminded me quite a bit of some of Willow's speeches in TTG/Grave" -- and both Willow and Warren sought a battle with Buffy to prove themselves.
But I found Warren sympathetic for other reasons as well:
The murders were accidents -- Warren found himself over his head, much as Faith did. Things spiraled out of control.
He's made himself into an evil scientist, the Slayer's nemesis, yet to Spike he's still captain of the nerd squad ("Help me out, Spock. I don't speak loser.") Katrina had a similar reaction, mocking his dress and speech.
T