June 2003 posts

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Cheeseman in Checkpoint? (spoilers BtVS S4&S5) -- Vegeta, 10:53:07 06/16/03 Mon

Last night up here in Minneapolis, the Season 5 episode "Checkpoint" was on. Being a stand out episode IMHO, I watched it. During the scene when Spike is being interviewed by the Watcher's Council, I noticed that the actor who was holding the crossbow had a striking resemblence to the actor who played the Cheeseman in "Restless". After another shot of him, I am fairly sure it is... Basically I was wondering if anyone noticed this too, or would like to prove me right or wrong.



one more bttb thread on wtth (1 small spoiler toward end for late season 4 "angel") -- anom, 12:30:46 06/16/03 Mon

Before we go on to The Harvest & beyond (which I don't have on tape, so I won't have much to contribute on it despite transcripts), I'd like to add a few more comments on Welcome to the Hellmouth. I actually took a few notes when we watched it at ATPo: The Gathering (>sniff< I still miss all you guys!).

I didn't remember the part about the history class where the teacher said the Black Death "originated in Europe...as an early form of germ warfare." 1st, this is true; according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Encyclopedia, "the epidemic originated in Asia & was transmitted to Europeans in 1347 when a Turkic army besieging a Genoese trading post in the Crimea catapulted plague-infested corpses into the town [yuccchhh!]." 2nd, this raises the question of why this is in the show. In the 1st episode. Early in the 1st episode. Like it's setting the tone for the whole show? Do vampires act like an infection, spreading through a population killing many & making others infectious? If the infection is consciously spreading itself, is it conducting "germ warfare"? Or is the metaphor specifically for the Harvest, in which a localized infection would have become an epidemic? This scene (in the classroom) takes place just before Buffy goes to the library, where Giles assumes she'll be champing at the bit to fight the plague of vampires (& he looks so eager as he puts Vampyr on the desk!).

Interesting that in a show so full of metaphor, the things Buffy was afraid of were ordinary new-school stuff:

"Giles: I was afraid of this.
Buffy: Well, *I* wasn't! It's my first day! I was afraid that I was gonna be behind in all my classes, that I wouldn't make any friends, that I would have last month's hair. I didn't think there'd be vampires on campus. And I don't care."

This implies that the metaphors in the show are going to be about the non-ordinary stuff. Things you don't expect when you go to school. Things you want to be able to not care about. Unconscious fears, the kind we deny. That's why they're dealt w/as metaphors, & why we didn't see metaphors for being behind in classes or having the wrong hair (except in Nightmares?).

I'm trying to find some connection between Luke's repeated "The sleeper will wake" & H. G. Wells' 1899 novel "When the Sleeper Wakes," in which a man has slept for over 200 years & through the magic of compound interest (way oversimplified, but...) pretty much owns the world. And since he can't make his wishes known about what he wants done w/his property, there's an administrative council that makes decisions in his name. He's become something of a legend, & "when the Sleeper wakes..." is a kind of pie-in-the-sky byword. Then he does wake.

It's been a long time since I read it, & I don't remember enough to draw any coherent parallels--just unconnected ones, like asleep for hundreds of years as the Master has been trapped for hundreds of years; admin council/Watchers Council?; worshipped while comatose like Cordelia toward the end of Angel season 4...none of it hangs together. And there's nothing in the book about the world bleeding, as far as I remember. If anyone can pull this together--or say that it just doesn't fit--please do.

Loved Buffy's handstand ambush of Angel! Whoa! One of the moments that made me think I was gonna like this show.

Buffy's advice to Willow to "Seize the moment, because tomorrow you might be dead" is all too true in Sunnydale, but in Willow's case almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Figuratively. Um, well, the "prophecy" part, anyway.

[> Re: Welcome to the Hellmouth - Addenda - Running gags, motifs, and themes -- Brian, 15:22:08 06/16/03 Mon

1.The first daylight shoot of Sunnydale High School has a school bus arriving.

2.Buffy: "It's not that I have fluffy bunny feelings towards them (vampires)."

3.Giles: "There is so much you don't about them (vampires), about your own powers."

4.Cordelia's comment about shoes.

5.Xander's comment that Sunnydale is a one Star Buck town.

6.Identifying vamps by their out-of-date clothes.

7.A school library that no one uses.

8.In the library Giles always unexpectedly pops up to surprise and usually embarrass one or more of the Scoobies.

9.Buffy contrasts her clothes: "Hi, I'm an enormous slut - Would you like a copy of The Watchtower.

[> I think... -- KdS, 15:56:18 06/16/03 Mon

... that it wan't an H G Wells reference, but was, if to anything consciously, to Cthulhu and the other Malign Sleepers in Lovecraft.

This was in my in my head this morning as I commuted to work. -- fresne, 13:08:01 06/16/03 Mon

Since, I'd really rather have other things in my head, I wrote it down and am posting it, so that it can be in your heads instead.


He stands in front of the burnt out shell of something that was intended to last forever. Fine dust everywhere. Burnt stones laid with care scattered by a careless hand. Metal reinforcements melted into horrifying modern art.

He hadn't thought there was anything left that could horrify him. Every fall the world works to prove him wrong.

He sensed rather than heard Quentin Travers standing next to him. Heart took a jump because Quentin, who he'd known and cordially disliked for over twenty years, was dead. Had to be dead. Had been in the building when it blew. What little was left had been identified. Was dead.

He takes off his glasses and polishes them, he finds himself saying, "Quentin? They...uh...said that you were dead." Trite, trite, trite.

"They were right. I am." Quentin walks forward and touches a blackened brick. "At least it was fast. With the Council gone, now all that's left to protect this sorry world is one black sheep and a girl."

"Quentin, I know that you've never approved of Buffy, but she has saved this world time and again and this occasion will be no different."

A weakened cross beam snaps in the background. Falls. Brings another load bearing wall with it in a cascade of dust and stone and history. Quentin smiles, "Really." he says and with a flash, he is gone.

He walks back behind the police line and gets ready to find the girls who are left. The slender potential upon which the world rests. It is all that he can do.


There are rose petals strewn across the floor of his hotel room. He has had this dream before. The sound of ice melting away in a dewy champagne bucket. The plaintive wail of lost love over the speakers. And Jenny. Sleeping. Eyes only closed for a second on his bed.

Except this is not a dream. Is not real, is not real, is not real.

Jenny opens her eyes. "Of course it isn't real Rupert. I'm dead." She stretches, arms straight out, a spine cracking crucifixion that emphasizes her chest. She gets off the bed, "I'm restless. Dead and restless." She moves almost close enough to touch. He should feel her breath on his cheek. She isn't breathing. "How could I rest while my killer is still walking around." Moves out of his range of vision and is gone. He can hear his mother telling him to ignore the bullies and they will go away.

Jenny goes away.

Angelus, kohl and eyeliner and leather pants coming into view on his other side. "Buffy never could kill me." Angelus picks up a handful of rose petals and tosses them into the air, "No matter who I torture, she loves me. She loves me some more." Angelus sits down on the bed and bats eyeliner rimmed eyes. "After all, I have a soul now. Makes me safe as a kitten."

Melts into that boy, Ben, bleeding and wide eyed, "And as we know, people with souls can't even scratch."

Melts into a flash of light and it is all gone. Except for a faint scent of dusky dead roses.

He gets ready for bed, so he can lie awake and remember. It is all that he can do.


It is hot. Well, the windows have all been boarded up. The room is full of Potentials radiating heat and smell and sleepy sighs. Safe. Safe behind summery walls.

In May, everything falls apart. In the summer, they put things back together again. It is winter and hot and the room is strewn with dry dead rose petals.

Not so safe.

"They're all mulch. Rotting and full of decay." Snyder is standing next to him. Smirking at the room. "I'm going watching them die. Moments like that should be savored."

He ignores Snyder. Walks between the sleeping girls to the door. It is cold outside. The bite in the air is welcome. Walks past Quentin standing on the porch, "You cannot save them. You failed as a Watcher. Failed to teach that Summers girl enough to keep her from getting killed. You will fail to save any of them."

The taxi drives up in the early morning light. He gets into it. It is all that he can do.


Sunnydale to SFO (LAX is unwise these dark days) to Narita to Delhi. Thirty-nine hours of traveling by sitting still. Trapped strapped into his seat. At least as the last Watcher sitting, he has plenty of money. First class whisky that should put him to sleep. That makes him wired and drunk instead. If only he could sleep.

There is a rose petal suspended in his drink. He tries to fish it out, but his fingers just pass through. Knows it is a mistake, ignore it, it wants a response, says, "You really should very your routine."

"Oh, I don't know Rupert." Jenny's face is rotting, barely recognizable except for her dark, deep eyes. "This one is working so well." She smiles softly with shriveled lips, "I know you did your best to avenge me. Of course, you failed. Like you always fail. Like you failed to keep Buffy alive."

Morphs into Kendra, whole and clean except for the stream of blood running from her neck, "Ya couldn't even keep me alive. But ya hardly knew me. Like ya hardly know these girls. So, it won't be that bad."

Morphs into Buffy, "Not like when I died."

Tries not to say anything, but whiskey will talk, "You are not her," he says.

"Funny, I look like me. Then again, I've died twice." He watches the years melt away, add baby fat and round happy youth that care has planed away, "You didn't save me the first time either."

"But you were saved."

"Yeah, saved to die again. Saved to have my lover kill Ms. Calendar. Snap her neck. Saved to end up clawing out of my own grave. I was sixteen and I didn't want to die and you didn't save me."

Morphs into a girl that he only knows from pictures, knows that his motionless travel is pointless. "Like I was sixteen, but you know that from your Watcher files. Know what I liked and what I dreamed. This is not a dream and I am just getting started." This girl, this Potential, this dead child reaches into his drink. Plucks out the petal. It shrivels in her hand. She blows the dust away. Compresses into a flash of light and is gone.

He stares at the empty seat, unseeing. Unblinking. Tired. Old.

"Sir. Sir." He glances up. It is the stewardess, "You'll need to put your tray up, we're getting ready to land." He hands her his drink and dutiful puts up his tray. Latch plastic click. Must keep everything stowed and secure. Land, go through customs, knowing that the seconds are ticking away. Never get them back. Determine when the first flight to his next destination leaves. It is all that he can do.

[> This was really well done, Fresne. Thanks. I miss Giles. -- Rochefort, 01:07:12 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> I missed Giles all Season 7. :< -- WickedShortchanged, 17:50:35 06/17/03 Tue

and fresne.... thanks for doing what ME didn't - resuscitating Giles.

[> Wonderful! -- ponygirl, 08:06:15 06/17/03 Tue

I just wish that even one of those scenes had been on screen. I had always imagined Giles as being traumatized by the events of the season, now at least I will have lovely illustrations for my imaginings. Rose petals make a great symbol for Giles - all the lost love, lost passion, fading dreams, the romantic in middle age. Thanks fresne!

[> I propose we analyze, debate, applaud and dissect fresnes posts until Angel returns. -- WIckedBuffy, 19:12:07 06/17/03 Tue

anyone second the motion?

[> [> I'm in on the applauding! -- Sara, feeling inadequate for analyze, debate and dissect, 20:17:56 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> Okay, because I feel everyone should have a tiara. And I have the power of non-sequitur. -- fresne, fresne, and fresne, 10:11:30 06/18/03 Wed

Actually, I may be too busy rushing through all the other posts. Do you ever get up in the morning, see all these wonderful posts and it's like Thanksgiving or something? You gobble through them really fast, because your cousin/Voynak might steal that post when you're not looking. Chomp. Chomp. Chomp. And then your head hurts with all the chocolaty philosophical goodness. Plus you feel like you're on a caffeine high. So, do you?
Sure. Since, I'm inclined to agree with lulabelle, in her very pleasing delurk, that it is important to balance self love with external obligations. Quite clearly I'm mastered the first in a S1 Cordelia sort of way.

Also, this could lead to a very intriguing trend in which we all analyze our own posts. It would be like this string of moebius loops. Self referential and extreme. And possibly done in charcoal.
It's crystalline clear that the rose stuck in the whiskey glass is symbolic of a fly from a prehistoric age. The rest of its kind long gone to some cruel frost, while it remains frozen dead in time.
Yes, yes, and of course, Giles is at that moment time traveling into the future (when he crossed the international date line) and time is out of joint. Indicating that his problems could be resolved if he rejoined his community (went back over the date line) because he would end up leaving before he left.
Please revise previous post to say arriving before he left. Thank you.
Ha, foolish reasoning. Only if he goes from east to west. If he returns via England, the whole metaphor falls apart like a stack of ill stacked cards bushed by the cold breeze of reason.
Damn...foiled by myself.
Giles is traveling on a train going West at 90 miles an hour to reach his destination 300 miles away. Caleb is traveling in his truck going East at 80 miles an hour, but is 260 miles away. Will the Potential be saved?
Whatever. I'm math deficient. I am a math rebel. I am math chaos. Humanity/Science imbalance unending. Bwhahahaha!.?
Why are you looking at me like that? I'm not crazy? And you, be quiet, I'm posting to the nice external people. What? No, you can't have cookie. I don't want to stretch my leather pants of evil. Hmm...where was I?

Leather trousers. Okay, so on one hand, I don't want to be limited by authorial interviews etc. On the other hand, in the DVD commentary Joss says that ASH does not wear pants. I think that this is an extremely valuable lens through which to view BtVS. Anytime, we cannot see that ASH is wearing pants, he is not. I shall immediately reread my storylet with that analytical viewfinder in mind.
So, between ASH and JM, we were darn close to the all nekkid season finale that Joss promised us several years ago. Well, that and we needed a zeppelin.

Wait, I stopped talking about myself. Umm...pay no attention to the all gay, all nekkid, all singing review on their zeppelin, piloted by Xander, in their attack on Jupiter to fight Shaka Kahn. KAAAHHHHNNN! Wait that was all about Trek wasn't it. Hmmm...

When really, it's all about me!

[> general BtVS S7 Spoilers -- fresne, 13:09:16 06/16/03 Mon

[> Love this, Fresne. The problem is that none of these traumatic events showed up on screen. -- cjl, 13:41:02 06/16/03 Mon

Maybe if we'd seen The First/QT visiting Giles in the rubble of the Council, as the dead Potential on that plane to Delhi, or mocking him in the guise of Jenny, we would have understood why he seemed so utterly bonkers in the second half of S7.

Unfortunately...the mystery of Pod!Giles continues.

[> [> but maybe we can pinpoint when he snapped out of it (& yeah fresne!) -- anom, 21:02:29 06/16/03 Mon

Beautiful, fresne! Exactly the words & images the First could've used to poddify Giles. Too bad we didn't see anything like it on the show.

As for the equally puzzling mystery of why the Giles we knew & loved was suddenly back in Chosen, I think a clue can be found in Willow's computer search for info on the Scythe. Giles identifies what she thinks is a question mark as a "?" without the "."--a symbol for the glottal stop. He describes this as "a gulpy sound." (The closed caption said "gulping," but I listened again; he said "gulpy.") Gulp-y? Does this sound like Giles? No, it sounds like Buffy or Willow or Xander. Giles has gotten back in touch w/his inner Scooby! And that's what frees him from podness.

What I really want to know is why Willow didn't click on the button w/the gulpy symbol. I mean, it was right there. Presumably it led to some info that could've been helpful. But instead they send Buffy to find a crypt that's been there so long nobody noticed it. Huh?

[> [> Thanks all. Its absence, made its presence written -- fresne, 23:53:48 06/16/03 Mon

It was on instant replay in my head. Which when you're trying to write an introduction to Processes for a Technical Architecture, can be a bit distracting. Like the First. Only, you know, with more technical manuals and fewer rose petals. And you know, dead people.

[> [> Yes. PodGiles - the greatest weakness of the season. Sigh. -- dream, for whom fanwanking PodGiles is like a second job, 14:03:50 06/16/03 Mon

[> [> [> Re: Yes. PodGiles - the greatest weakness of the season. Sigh. -- Rina, 13:29:29 06/17/03 Tue

How can PodGiles be the greatest weakness of the season, when there was no Pod Giles? He was merely a figment of the fans' imagination who thought they could explain his negative actions with the theory that he was under the FE's control.

No one seems willing to face what was really bothering Giles, in Season 7. Spike really said it in "Touched", although I believe he was a bit off. It wasn't so much that Giles could not deal with Buffy surpassing him as a leader in the fight against evil. He simply had difficulty dealing with Buffy as an adult. Yes, he stated in Season 6 that she needed to grown up and take responsibility. But once she did, he had difficulty handling it. Coupled this with his "any means necessary" pragmatism, along with the destruction of the Watcher's Council, it's not really surprising that he was acting wonky this past season.

Must it all be spelled out for you? If so, you should consider watching CHARMED.

[> [> [> [> Hey, watch the attitude! -- dream, 13:56:59 06/17/03 Tue

Okay, you think the development of Giles character was valid. That's fine. It's not like we have never seen Giles exhibit a "win at any costs" attitude before. And it's legitimate to argue that he wanted to retain control of Buffy, even if that was a change from last season. After all, people's attitudes do change. But we didn't see that. We saw all the worst aspects of a major character's personality exhibited with none of the positive aspects. We also saw a very deliberate mislead that Giles might be the First, with no follow-up once it was shown he wasn't. So I think I have a very legimimate complaint about his characterization this year; many others agree. There's room for disagreement, fine. I certainly thought the attempted rape was in character for Spike, many people I respect felt differently. But I never implied that their feelings indicated that they were less intelligent, less "worthy" of the show. So what's with the "Charmed" comment? Do you need to insult those who disagree with you? Do you understand how rude and off-putting that is? Do you talk to people like that in real life, or do you save up your agressive, anti-social tendencies for the web?

Oh, and I didn't mind Giles' ACTIONS this year. I could see the old Giles, in the right circumstances, choosing to side against Buffy on the question of Spike. I just didn't buy that he would do so so quickly. I also didn't buy that he would spend the whole season barely connecting with anyone, acting like a shadow of his former self - and that if he did, this wouldd't be worthy of some investigative screen time. He was one of the core characters, after all.

[> [> [> [> That was rude. -- Sophist, 13:59:51 06/17/03 Tue

Hey, I agree that your explanation is part of what we saw with Giles this year. But I also agree that ME could have done more to convey his mental state.

The sarcasm in your post doesn't add anything. dream expressed a common criticism of S7, a valid one IMHO. Insulting her just cuts off dialogue and reflects poorly on you.

[> [> [> [> hey! HEY! Who's dissin' on CHARMED? we don't do that to BUFFY. -- Prue, Piper, Phoebe and that red-haired chick, 17:12:37 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Re: hey! HEY! Who's dissin' on CHARMED? we don't do that to BUFFY. -- Rina, 10:00:43 06/18/03 Wed

One, the red-haired chick's character is named Paige.

Two, I've been watching CHARMED longer than BUFFY and I know what I'm talking about.

Three, the CHARMED forum, "TheProphecy.net" has a topic, which declares that CHARMED is better than BUFFY (I try not to laugh at that one).

[> [> [> [> [> [> You watch Charmed? And I don't. Ironic, isn't it? -- dream, wondering why you needed to assert Charmed authority, 12:29:52 06/18/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> ::koff:: The naive Forum posters say that - the real Charmed ones do not. -- The "P"s, 17:12:43 06/18/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> CHARMED couldn't be worse than ANGEL's been for the last 2 seasons, could it? -- Q, 13:00:41 06/18/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Uh, I'm going to assume you're being facetious... Right? Sometimes my sarcasm meeter gets wonky. -- Scroll :o), 21:18:11 06/18/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Heck, I read Harlequin romance novels. My Lit High Ground is sub-sea level -- fresne, 17:52:56 06/17/03 Tue

And, I do watch Charmed, which is a darn funny show although the girls do wear some truly horror inducing clothes. Plus, as a Bay Area resident, I laugh and laugh and laugh at some of the Bay Area not-ness. Although, I haven't been catching it as much since Cole isn't there to wear those gorgeous suits and be evil, die, live again, be in love, be evil, die, live again, be in love, be evil, die, let the poor man die already. Thank you. It was actually really funny to watch Cole be wacked and kinda nutso and then watch Spike be a whole nuther jar of prime quality nutso. Plus, I've decided Adrian Paul, who made a cameo, has made a Dick Clark deal with the devil. And since it isn't my soul in jeopardy, I approve. Evil appearance focused fresne looks just like good philosophical fresne, she just wears cyber leather pants of evil. And talks about herself in third person.

Okay, I've lost track now. Where was I? Oh, yeah, podGiles.

Well, fairly clearly I had a problem or you know, Technical Architecture. Vitally important. Nothing to do with podGiles. Should have been focused on writing brilliantly boring prose about it.

Instead my back brain whirred at a certain mushiness of line in the latter 3rd of the season.

I wanted to see Giles' reasoning, with screen time and lines and possibly my poor little heart ripped out and stepped on in a sympathy pain sort of way. That the man who feared the death of one Slayer, who sang of wanting to help her lay her arms down, must now face draining that drink to its bitterest dregs, well, I get all teary eyed.

Also, I wanted more usage of the First as a creature that thrives on dissension. Chaos as destruction that tears apart and keeps people apart. Something that implicitly understands our dark buttons, without any true grasp of concepts like faith, hope, love. Okay, so I loved CwDP and the Mayor and I'm greedy. Greedy. Narcissistic. And wearing leather trousers of pure evil, with a little polyester blend lining so I don't turn into a duck. Because you know, these trousers are made of pure Evil.

Where was I?

Oh, yeah, Chosen, which I loved, adored, cherished and wanted set in a pure platinum setting with diamonds. An actively relations destructive First Evil makes Buffy's response of empowering, of joining, of creating a lasting community, all the more delightful in my head.

Although, quite frankly, are you listening ME, my Giles issues can be easily satisfied with a nice thirteen+ episode BBC series focusing on Giles and all his issues. I mean, Joss has the time now right?

Giggle inducing Charmed only takes up an hour of my week. I want my Watcher and/or Ripper series. Although for now I'll settle for Monk. Summer has its perks.

[> [> [> [> [> hey- if evil leather means posts this good (not to mention what it does for Angel) I'm all for it! -- Alison, 17:59:07 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> A little note on what ASH said about it -- s'kat, 21:53:07 06/17/03 Tue

As a reward for yet another poetic post and btw fres - I loved your fic for Giles, totally see that. Why didn't they do it? Huh? Dang.

Anyways - just finished reading a transcript of ASh's Q&A at the moonlight rising con and apparently he was told to
not touch anything or lean against anyone or anything for three episodes - the writers wanted to play the red herring for all it's worth. (They also wanted to torture poor Tony, b/c I'll let you all in on a little secret, Head loves to play with props. He's called prop man. It's his acting style - to find a prop to play with in any given scene, b/c he believes when people interact, they fidget. So the writers and Joss had fun old time forcing him to act without doing this.) Anyways, ASH says he played the scenes with the view of emotional distance. That he was so traumatized by what happened and the fear of losing these poor girls that he had emotionally distanced himself. Tried not to let himself get emotionally attached to anyone or touch anyone as a sort of defensive wall.

So I think for what it's worth - he played Giles more or less the way fresne wrote it.

The links to the transcripts can be found on the spoiler trollops board.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A little note on what ASH said about it -- Yellow Bear, 18:49:44 06/18/03 Wed

I kinda always saw Giles that way to be honest. The whole First red herring was wrong headed IMHO but after I got over the whole is-Giles-dead-or-not aspect I saw much of Giles actions this season as being brought on by his desire not to lose these girls, not to allow himself the emotions he has for the SG.

I think what tipped me off to this was the conversation in BOTN where Buffy asks him to visit once without an apocalypse, and Giles response is so dismissive of her that it forced me to realise that he doesn't want to come back to Sunnydale, to live this life anymore.

I don't think the show really deals with these emotions so it became a thing where the audience just wondered why Giles was acting so strange. The most interesting thing about this is that Giles emotions in regards to the potentials are very similar to Buffy's which could have been an interesting angle to explore but it never came to be.

[> [> I have other suspicions -- KdS, 16:03:11 06/16/03 Mon

When Rah, yab and I were discussing this season recently, we came to the suspicion, given the portrayal of the Shadowmen and Guardians, that Joss really does believe that on some essential level women are good and men evil (I hear from reliable sources that he personally wrote Lilah's infamous "primordial misogyny" lines in Billy). I have a nasty feeling that Giles was so ineffectual, and malevolent when active, this season because Joss felt it was necessary to hammer home the feminist empowerment thing. You can't even trust an apparently reconstructed patriarch! He'll still turn evil at the slightest provocation!

[> [> [> The line from "Billy" moreso fits in with "Angel's" general worldview -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:22:32 06/16/03 Mon

"Angel" has a very Hobbsian view of humanity, that, in the beginning, we were all savage, brutish creatures, and that concepts such as morality and nobility have evolved over time. "Primordial misogyny" is a natural extension of this view of humanity's origins. I don't think you should consider it applicable to "Buffy", which is more of a humanistic show.

[> [> [> Re: I have other suspicions -- ponygirl, 09:24:14 06/17/03 Tue

You know I think you may have something there. Coming off my s4 commentary fest this weekend I was struck by Joss and Marti's views on men and women. It seemed to me from his comments on Hush and Restless that Joss sees traditionally feminine symbols and attributes as very positive, with the masculine more of the negative. Marti on the Wild At Heart commentary discusses the idea of the beast within men - she said that there is an animal within women as well, but that for men it could sometimes be an uncontrollable force. In both cases it seemed that they viewed the gap between men and women's natures as far wider than I had supposed.

One of the basic mandates of the show is feminist empowerment. After centuries of patriarchal dominance - which is still prevalent in virtually all of the world - it's not a message I have a problem with. The problem is if Joss sees women as somehow nobler he runs the risk of imitating Victorian ideas - that women's "purer" sensibilities should be revered and protected, in short put on a pedestal away from the dirty business of real power. There's also the possibility of men being diminished so that women could look better. Xander may have found strength in a more nurturing role, but I can think of any number of examples where the more traditionally male figures- Angel, Spike, Riley- were physically weakened, put in a damsel in distress role.

I do believe that Giles' portrayal in s7 was on some level meant to represent a negative male authority figure, to the detriment of his characterization. But do I think that the belief in a primordial misogyny pervades the show? I don't know. Some of it, especially the Shadowmen, is a reaction to history - historical misogyny rather than innate perhaps? In any case I think that there is a danger in denyng both men and women access to the full range of humanity - the good and the bad.

[> [> [> [> well said, ponygirl! -- anom, 11:57:52 06/17/03 Tue

"In both cases it seemed that they viewed the gap between men and women's natures as far wider than I had supposed."

It certainly sounds that way, & if it's true, it bothers me. Of course, I'm just seeing your brief impressions of Joss & Marti's views; I hope they were more nuanced than that in the full commentaries.

Interesting that Marti says that about Wild at Heart--it seems more appropriate to Beauty & the Beasts. If anything, Veruca seems more like a counterexample. Is Marti saying Veruca's inner animal is controlled? 'Cause it sure doesn't look that way. She's given in completely to it. In fact, the more I think about it in the context of that comment the less sense it makes.

As for whether there's any need to ennoble women or diminish men, well, at least in terms of who's in distress, Buffy is one of the most equal-opportunity shows I've seen when it comes to who needs rescuing & who does the rescuing. That's one of the things I like most about it. Most people both need help & are in a position to give it in different circumstances in their lives, (if not usually as dramatically as is portrayed on the show!).

I think the "primordial misogyny" comment is a character's viewpoint rather than the writers'. I don't see it treated as fact on the show as a whole. And I wholly agree w/your last statement: "In any case I think that there is a danger in denyng both men and women access to the full range of humanity - the good and the bad"--whether any part of that range is characterized as "masculine" or "feminine."

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks anom, but I am modifying my post a bit -- ponygirl, 12:20:02 06/17/03 Tue

I feel a bit guilty in implying that Joss is over-idealizing women or demeaning men. I don't think he actually is, but rather that there is the danger that he could. As you say, I was mentioning impressions I got from the commentaries, since I listened to three within a brief space of time certain things leapt out at me, in a broader context it probably is more balanced. Actually the most definite impression I got is that Joss loves Willow. I mean really looooves her.

Marti's comment about the beast within did include women as well, and she was speaking of the show's werewolf metaphor as a whole. I found it quite interesting, and she was doing the commentary with both Joss and Seth Green, so if they objected to her assertion that the beast in men is a stronger force they had an opportunity to disagree.

As for whether there's any need to ennoble women or diminish men, well, at least in terms of who's in distress

And I think a lot of this distress element has to do with the conventions of a show with one central hero. Buffy has to be the strongest, she has to have someone to save. One of the things that I appreciated about the show and Chosen was that it turned this convention on its head, ultimately giving everyone a chance to be the hero.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I agree with this -- Sophist, 12:52:14 06/17/03 Tue

One more point about MN: she is regularly criticized for her idealized portrayal of Riley. I don't know how true that is, but I can say that Riley's character in S4 seems pretty inconsistent with her comment.

[> [> [> I think this theory needs a little more work -- Sophist, 16:22:04 06/16/03 Mon

Joss has said from the beginning that Xander is the character who "is" him. What message are we to deduce from Xander this year? That he was untrustworthy?

Can your theory be reconciled with Spike this season? With Andrew? With Jonathan?

[> [> [> [> Quick reply -- KdS, 16:34:20 06/16/03 Mon

Xander has never been a patriarchal figure on the show. All his best moments tend to come when he plays a gender switched "heroine" role - standing up to evil with pluck and little back-up, nurturing people. Likewise Andrew has never been even faintly patriarchal, and has been quite feminised this season.

Giles has been a father-figure most of the way through, albeit a reconstructed one.

And I'd probably better leave someone else to discuss Spike...

[> Fragile, sad beauty- thank you -- Tchaikovsky, 13:42:53 06/16/03 Mon

[> Re: This was in my in my head this morning as I commuted to work. -- CW, 15:22:59 06/16/03 Mon

Wish I had half your ability to think in images.

Thanks for sharing!

[> Haunting and beautiful, and the best type of fan fic... -- Rob, 15:43:19 06/16/03 Mon

...since it fits perfectly into the show's continuity, without any alterations needed, and, in fact, improves on what transpired on screen.


More thoughts on "Fear, Itself" (some S7 spoilers) -- Valheru, 15:00:33 06/16/03 Mon

Rob had a post last week about how Fear, Itself foreshadows the splintering of the Scooby Gang later in Season 4. While watching the DVD, I noticed that the characters' fears go even beyond the group dynamic, oftentimes alluding to future events in the individual character arcs.

Willow - At the start of the episode, Willow talks about her advances in magic. "I've got the basics down - levitation, charms, glamours. I just feel like I've plateaued wicca-wise." She wants to go to the next level--to transcend the limits of her current bounds--even though she has doubts. Buffy mistakenly supports those doubts, telling Willow not to do it if the radical departure is too scary. Then Oz arrives to further suppress Willow's experimentation, equating it to the loss of control in his wolf-form.

The episode takes Willow's fear at its literal level, but what about the metaphorical level? While not as overt at this point as it will become later, Willow's magic represents her sexuality. Translating for the above scene, what are the character's saying? [Warning: the following does not express the opinions of this poster or it's affiliates. It's an interpretation of the subtext, not an approval of it.]

Willow is getting tired of Oz. She still loves him, but she feels that they have peaked sexually. She wants to find someone who can do more for her. At this point, it's unclear whether Willow thinks that all men are sexually inferior, but she does mention that the next level includes "transmutation, conjuring, bringing forth something from nothing," which can be interpreted for lesbianism--transmutation is the obvious one (change from hetero- to homo-sexual), but "bringing forth something from nothing" can also be said in a more suggestive way: "making something come from a hole" (God, I hope no kids are reading this...).

But Willow is scared, as is understandable. Deciding, with finality, to become gay is (I expect) a horrifying proposition at first. So she decides to run it by her friends, hoping for some support. Unfortunately, Buffy misunderstands and tells her not to do it. That's Bummer #1. Bummer #2 arrives with Oz, who--as the rejected lover--predictably downplays the entire notion. But what must be even more frightening to Willow is when Oz compares it to his wolf-state. From this perspective, isn't Oz just giving Willow the Buffyverse version of the "gays are all evil abominations" speech (although, if you stay on the metaphorical train-of-thought, this also means that Oz is admitting that he himself is gay). Also of interest is what he says to Chaz later: "Cowering in a closet is starting to seem like a reasonable plan."

Later, in the haunted house, Willow (dressed as the lesbianesque Joan of Arc) gets even further rejected. Buffy pooh-poohs Willow's magic ability, basically saying that Willow really isn't a witch, that she's just playing around. Willow and Oz leave in a huff.

Willow then makes a very odd mistake. She starts to adamantly proclaim her magic proficiency...to Oz. Imagine that your hetero-sexual significant other started ranting about how gay they are. So of course, Oz does what anyone would think to do in such a situation: he turns his own sexuality up as high as it will go. By wolfing-out, Oz displays to Willow the extent to which his "skills" can reach, almost as if saying, "If you go gay, look at all you'll be missing! Think of all the things we can do when I have a tail!" However, Oz shows himself to perhaps be too potent, too out-of-control, and Willow runs away to do magic anyway.

The metaphor ends with Willow's guiding spell, which goes horribly wrong. Why? She's too unfocused. After all, if she's still with Oz, she's not committed to being a lesbian (which causes problems in Something Blue also); it is only when Willow commits herself to Tara that she starts being successful with her spells.

Apply this to Wild at Heart. Does Oz still sense Willow's desire for lesbianism? Are his romps with Veruca a subconscious manifestation of his fears about Willow? Is he still trying to keep her from becoming gay by flaunting his primal sexuality? Is he trying to make her jealous of Veruca? In effect, might it not be Willow who destroyed the relationship, rather than Oz? Again, I don't necessarily think all this is true, but it is there in the subtext.

Though it is interesting that Buffy (and Xander and Giles, by extension) reacts more strongly to the text than the subtext. When Willow finally does come out of the closet, there is only a mild hesitancy to approve from the Scoobies, compared to the stronger disapproval they displayed with the magic metaphor.

Xander - Xander's situation is the opposite of Willow's: his fears are normal, but there's a supernatural subtext. He fears that, being a "civilian," his college friends are outgrowing him. But actually, they outgrew him back in Season 2.

Look at the scene where Xander becomes invisible. Everyone is leaving to their supernatural states: Willow is going off to be a witch, Oz to be a werewolf, and Buffy to be the Slayer. Xander stays behind to be...Xander (or "cool-headed waiter guy" without wielding some sort of power). Once again, Xander is the useless part of the group--the Zeppo. And like The Zeppo, Xander spends the rest of the episode wandering around unnoticed by his super-heroic world-saving pals.

When does Xander become visible again? When everyone else stops being super-powered. When Buffy leaves those she must Slay, when Oz reverts back from his were-state, and when Willow's spell dissipates, only then is Xander acknowledged. He is important to the people that his friends are, not to the super-people.

But fast-forward to Potential and we see that Xander has turned his "invisibility" into an asset. Because he is ignored in the mystical world, he has an invaluable perspective on things the rest of the Scoobies can't see. The uber-witch, werewolf, Slayer, ex-demon, vampire, Watcher, and Key get all the attention; meanwhile, the invisible Zeppo can sneak in undetected. It is because Xander is forgotten that he can surprise Dark Willow and save the world...by being important to Willow the person, not Willow the witch (who everyone else was concerned with). And when Xander does become visible to the mystical world, that's when Caleb attacks him.

And a side note: when Buffy becomes invisible in Gone, Xander asks, "have you been feeling ... ignored lately?" Buffy makes the connection to Marcie Ross from Out of Mind, Out of Sight, but Xander is probably referring to his own experience in Fear, Itself. Another example of Xander being overlooked.

Anya - Xander leaves Anya behind, stuck in her own worst fear. Exactly what he does in Hell's Bells, except rather than bunny-fear, it's her fear of being a scorned woman.

Buffy - Buffy's fears lead her to the darkness of the basement, with the dead frat-boy. He tells her, "They all ran away from you. They always will. Open your heart to someone and-- But don't fret, little girl, you're not alone...anymore."

From Dead Things:

SPIKE: You see... you try to be with them... but you always end up in the dark...with me. What would they think of you... if they found out... all the things you've done? If they knew... who you really were?

SPIKE: Look at them. That's not your world. You belong in the shadows... with me.

Spuffy must have scared the crap out of her.

[> Finally, a REAL response! ;o) -- Rob, 17:58:37 06/17/03 Tue

Quite amazing just how many levels this episode actually does turn out to have. I always liked "Fear, Itself," thought it was fun and actually one of the more genuinely creepy episodes of "Buffy," but never really noticed all of its layer until reviewing it with the season 4 DVDs particularly since the final season is over, and there was so much in those last episodes that reflected back on this one.

I think I'm going to work my way backwards through your review, just...um...because!

Buffy - Buffy's fears lead her to the darkness of the basement, with the dead frat-boy. He tells her, "They all ran away from you. They always will. Open your heart to someone and-- But don't fret, little girl, you're not alone...anymore."

And again with the basement metaphors! Buffy's friends turning their backs on her certainly did happen in "Empty Spaces," but it was basically a result of Buffy shutting them out long before that. Through Spike's words in "Touched" and in "End of Days," Buffy begins to learn that the way to defeat this fear is that if she doesn't shut people out to start off with, they won't shut her out in response. To be giving and loving, not superior and aloof. To give of herself and spread her strength to her friends. To let them take an active part in helping her, also.

Anya - Xander leaves Anya behind, stuck in her own worst fear. Exactly what he does in Hell's Bells, except rather than bunny-fear, it's her fear of being a scorned woman."

I love this! And yup, Anya ends up defeating her own worst fear, too. What are her last spoken words? Pretending the oncoming villains are "bunnies...floppy, hoppy bunnies." She fights from that point forward with an amazing determination, gusto, and spirit. By the end, even though she is killed, she truly has conquered her fear of bunnies. Symbolically, I would say the bunnies represent her fear of her own humanity. Bunnies are soft and calm and sweet, and perhaps she feared them because they represent the ultimate opposite of what it means to be a Vengeance Demon. If she could do such a human thing as finding bunnies cute, then she would be admitting that she is mortal and will one day die. By the end, though, she doesn't let this fear hurt her anymore. She uses it to her advantage. The old Anya wouldn't have imagined the army of Turok-Han as bunnies...she would have been too frightened to lift a sword! But the Anya who finally admitted that she liked the human race in "End of Days," and finally came to a true understanding of what it is to be human, no longer fears the bunnies. She sees them as not an oppressive force, but as an enemy, on the save level as herself, so she fights and kills these "bunnies," because she has nothing more to fear. And in the act of fighting her worst fear, yes, she does die, but she does not die afraid and more importantly dies protecting someone weaker than herself. So even this fear in "Fear, Itself" is addressed in the final eps!

Not much more to add on your Xander analysis. I thought it was really brilliant. Watching "Gone," I'd totally forgotten about Xander's invisibility in this episode. And you make another great point when you say that the fact that Buffy related this response to Marcie and not Xander is yet another case of him being overlooked. Great stuff!

Your Willow one, I found very interesting and challenging. I'm not sure if I agree with the subtexty reading of the scene, or at least I'm not sure I agree that there was any intent on the writers' part for it to be interpreted this way, but you do argue it well, even though you yourself said you don't know if you endorse this interpretation! The major problem with the interpretation that at this point, it is about Willow realizing she's gay at some subconscious level and that Oz's crush on Veruca is also a subconscious rebellion against Willow is how jealous Willow instantly is of the attention Oz gives Veruca, from the first moment she sees her. Although when Willow starts doing magic with Tara, it is many times used as a metaphor for lesbianism, I'm not sure if it's intended as a metaphor for lesbianism yet until she clasps hands with Tara. Same way it was used as a metaphor for an abuse of power and later, drug abuse, and then later again still, abuse of power again, in season 6. I don't think that when Willow says in this episode that she can do magic that she means on any level that she is a lesbian or doing lesbian activities. I can, however, buy that this is foreshadowing later events. Oz freaking out and turning into a wolf, for example, is certainly a precursor to his morphing in front of Tara, in broad daylight, in Wild at Heart. The magic in this episode, loss of control, Will being bored sexually, Willow dressing as Joan of Arc foreshadows the events later in the season, and through the whole run of the show, but I don't think that these feelings were yet there. Your interpretation of this line, though--"Cowering in a closet is starting to seem like a reasonable plan."--is interesting. Again, I don't think Oz is implying that he's gay. But I like the link you drew there.


P.S. By wolfing-out, Oz displays to Willow the extent to which his "skills" can reach, almost as if saying, "If you go gay, look at all you'll be missing! Think of all the things we can do when I have a tail!"

That gave me a good laugh! :o)

[> [> Hmm, could this be the first appearance of the House Metaphor? -- ponygirl, 13:33:41 06/18/03 Wed

My brain's a bit frazzled today (meetings! meetings! meetings!) so I'm having trouble recalling earlier episodes, but Fear Itself did have all of the elements of the beloved house metaphor: Buffy falling into the basement to face her subconscious fears; having to go the top floor to comprehend the sitaution - the top story representing the higher brain functions. I'm conveniently ignoring Xander, Willow and Oz who faced their fears through various parts of the house 'cause the house metaphor's always been Buffy's thing.

Darn that David Fury! Now I'm really wishing there was dvd commentary on this episode!

[> Preserving the thread so I can respond later. Great stuff, Valheru! -- Rob, 15:38:10 06/16/03 Mon

[> [> Another preservy post...I don't want this to be archived before I can respond! -- Rob, 23:44:40 06/16/03 Mon

[> [> [> ...and still another postervation - don't want this archived before Rob can respond. -- WickedBuffy, 17:17:59 06/17/03 Tue

Are Slayers considered super naturally enhanced human's or demon hybrids? -- reaper, 19:50:29 06/16/03 Mon

Then a group of men created a warrior to fight the demons. They took a girl and chained her to the Earth. They beat their staffs against the ground. They set the Spirit of the Demon upon her. Its black energy writhed through the air like a snake. It became one with the girl. Like Vampires are infused with the demon spirit becoming demon hybrids, the slayer could be considered a body-soul hybrid.

[> Not sure -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:14:27 06/16/03 Mon

I haven't seen any indication that being the Slayer (or potential slayer) directly effects someone's personality. Yes, the situation they're in affects it, but I haven't seen any sign that the actual presence of the demon essence makes any changes. And, while Slayers have supernatural strength, they don't seem to be biologically demonic, since Spike's chipped still went off when he hit Buffy in Season 5. On the other hand, they have gained enhanced strength from it, so it's hard to say.

Perhaps the demon essence didn't actually stay in the First Slayer. Maybe it went in, altered her in some way so that she'd be stronger than almost all vampires, and then left.

[> [> I get the feeling that we're missing some key pieces of the puzzle -- BMF, 20:35:38 06/16/03 Mon

[> [> A possibility -- Valheru, 22:21:03 06/16/03 Mon

I think the key word here is "essence." Slayers are infused with the essence of a demon; vampires are infused with the actual demon itself. The First Slayer was given all the powers of the demon, but she didn't become the demon. Spike and Angel are almost the reverse angle. They are vampires infused with the essence of a human, however, they aren't humans themselves.

[> [> It still has me confused... -- WIckedBuffy, 22:26:11 06/16/03 Mon

That's something I was never clear on in Buffyverse.

If the demon is mixed in with the human still, then it would be a hybrid. But not necessarily a demon-hybrid. Just a hybrid. Unless you mentioned both parts that went into it.

If the demon just left an impression on the human, then it would be a human with some demonic traits, but still human.

ME's attitude always seemed to be that Slayers were human.

I was wondering where Adam fit in?

And then again - what does "demon" mean? That one is difficult for me to pin down. Non-human evil thing? What about the non-human "demons" like Clem, then. Is "evil" the defining word or is there something else? Is Lorne a demon or is he an alien or what? He comes from his own world, like we come from ours - they have a culture, rules, etc. Why is he considered a demon and now just an alien, then? Is any being not human a demon, then? I don't think the Mantis People wre ever referred to as demons. (might be wrong on that one.) Jasmine was a PTB, was she a demon? Are gods ever demons? Was Glory. Are there specific demon gods?

[> Don't forget the Guardians -- Dochawk, 07:51:11 06/17/03 Tue

Not only was the first slayer embued with the essence of a demon, but the Guardians also seemed to give her something - its why the scythe had such power.

Although what the shadowmen meant when they told Buffy she was the last guardian of the hellmouth, but then Caleb goes and kills the last Guardian. Confusing.

[> [> Why not? -- Sofdog, 09:55:35 06/17/03 Tue

Was this actually stated? The Guardian's comments were pretty vague. She says that they watched the Watchers but not that they interfered with the WC's efforts. She only says that they wanted to help and protect the Slayer, but she never says how or by what means this help manifested. Other than creating that scythe, she doesn't clearly say they did anything other than observe from a distance.

The whole Guardian appearance felt like a big fat crock. Told us nothing of import, her appearance implied that she'd been in Sunnydale all along and never once come out to aid the Slayer, and then she quickly died. Way frustrating.

[> [> [> I really liked the Guardian idea -- lulabelle, 15:17:00 06/17/03 Tue

*raises hand mekely* I kind of liked the Guardian.

I don't think she was the best character ever, but I think she got the message Joss wanted to convey accross. The Guardian embodies the power of the feminine in constrast to the patriarchy of the shadowmen/watchers.

The watchers force girls to become something against their will, taking away the girl's choice and power. That's why its so important that the Guardians never came and screamed, "hey I'm here. Let me tell you what to do." They waited and watched from afar, as though they cared about the slayers and wanted to know if they were ok. But they won't intervene. They leave the power for the slayers to take. Give them a choice. There's a feeling that if something dire is happening, as it was with the FE, then maybe somehow, they will make themselves known.

But they will never force the slayers to do anything. They will simply give her a tool with which to fight. And its so fitting that the wepon they give Buffy does so much more than kill. That's not its real power. Its power is to connect. The Watchers want to isolate the slayers, but the Guardians tool is a link to the slayer heritage, as well as to other slayers in the present, a tradition I tend to associate with matriarichal societies and oral storytelling.

The Guardian asks Buffy her name. The watchers try to take away the slayers names and human identities, the Guardian accepts it, even when she finds Buffy to be an odd name. The Guardian says the scythe was made for "one like you." Notice, she doesn't say "for a slayer." There's a feeling that the Guardian almost knows Buffy and knows that she is the one to liberate the slayer line because of the kind of person she is, not because of the demon power some men have imbued her with.

[> [> [> [> Me too, just not the execution -- Sofdog, 16:44:36 06/17/03 Tue

When the Guardian appeared I was sitting forward. It sounded like this was gonna be so cool. I thought there was a purpose to her presence: to broaden the mythology by explaining about the weapon. She was just a device for the writers to legitimize its late entrance. When Caleb killed the Guardian I wanted to punch out the screen. Look at all the questions her meager message raised, questions that were cruelly left unanswered by her sudden death.

I understand what she represents in the form of an answer to the mythology's patriarchy. But it was inadequately represented. They made a weapon, and watched at a distance. If the Guardian had said "we aided the Slayer by...." oh, say protecting her with charms, showing up in the nick of time, fighting shoulder to shoulder once in a while... that would have been something. But she really doesn't say much. They forged a weapon that got used once, to kill the last "pure demon." And the darn thing has been sitting in a rock ever since? What the hell good is that? It would have been handy for the other Slayers to have had it along the way.

For that matter, her statement is confusing. If the Slayer was created in answer to the vampire threat (oft and clearly stated in the show and comics) then who exactly wielded it against the last pure demon? A Guardian? And why has she been waiting around for the end of days? Buffy figured everything out without any help from her.

The Guardian didn't add anything. She was full of promise, but failed to deliver.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Me too, just not the execution -- lulabelle, 16:53:58 06/17/03 Tue

They forged a weapon that got used once, to kill the last "pure demon." And the darn thing has been sitting in a rock ever since? What the hell good is that? It would have been handy for the other Slayers to have had it along the way.

I don't think that scythe was about killing and I'm not sure any other slayer would know what to do with it. It was about embracing humanity and feminity and one's lineage as an extension of self. And I think that maybe why its important that the Guardian says, "one like you" not for "a slayer." Is it possible that the scythe was made specifically for Buffy in a cosmic kind of way. That she is the person with the power to understand herself well enough to empower others through the scythe. Killing the last pure demon is about the triumph of humanity and I think that's what the scythe is needed for. Its too precious just to be used to kill vampires.

On a side note, I'd be curious who could pull the scythe from the rock...just Buffy specifically? Any active slayer? Potential?

[> [> [> [> [> I think she's like the Lady of the Lake -- Sophist, 17:23:46 06/17/03 Tue

After all, we do have a King Arthur motif going on here. We never do know the motivations, only that now was the right time.

Just like there was a right time to re-forge the sword that was broken (LOTR) or for Whistler to tell Buffy how to use the sword. Or, as Giles says in WttH, "There's a reason why you're here, and a reason why it's now." We will never know the history of the Guardians, but we can guess how new ones might arise: "Yeah Buffy, what will we do?"

[> [> [> I agree Sofdog. The Guardian chagrinified me. -- WickedBuffy ::babbling on::, 16:58:56 06/17/03 Tue

Ss much as I liked the idea of Guardians, when I really thought about it, other than making the scythe and hiding it from everyone (even Buffy) - what do we know they ever did? Watch? How did they guard? Or were they guarding the scythe? By embedding it in rock? The Guardian idea left many more questions than answers.

disappointment disappointment I wept ashes were strewn clothes were rent to own :/

To me, a Guardian does something active - it seems "The Observers" would have been a more accurate name.

We have The Watchers - who did much more than just "watch". And The Guardians - who pretty much only watched. Seems like the titles are mixed-up.

"The Guardian embodies the power of the feminine in constrast to the patriarchy of the shadowmen/watchers."

I got that message, too, lulabelle. But it didn't sit so well with me. That Guardian gave little information, saying all they did was watch things without ever taking action after making the scythe.... and then her neck was immediately snapped by Caleb, the symbol of patriarchy. We really have to work to fill in the gaping holes The Guardian, or rather Joss, created with this character.

She wasn't a powerful feminine portrayal to me. Buffy and the previous Slayers, Dawn, Willow, Andrew, Xander, Anya, Spike, even Darla and Dru, embody the power of the feminine to me. Showing a wane stand-on-the-sidelines woman with only moderate information-giving skills wasn't a strong representation of anything to me. I couldn't even consider her wise or supportive, nuturing or helpful from what we saw.

I didn't understand why such a half-baked character was thrown into the last show other than as a quick "oOO this will balance out the Watchers" device or a set-up for Angel and Buffy to meet with Spike spying on the osculating. (Or maybe just to get some use out of that old "Land of the Lost" set no one knew what to do with.)

I was real disappointed in what could have been a much more powerful character, even in a very short period of time.

(I would even have been satisfied if she'd claimed being the one who always kept the Scoobies hair clean and shiny or secretly fed all the SITs or kidnapped Buffys dad or did the yardwork or stopped the neighbors from ever calling the police or any other of those incogruencies we've listed in other posts that never quite made sense.)

[> [> [> [> I'm sorry - possible spoilers for last Buffy episode above... -- WickedBuffy ayiii, 17:04:18 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> About embedding it in the rock . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:46:18 06/17/03 Tue

Caleb seemed to want it. Either he wanted to destroy it or to use it himself. By embedding it in rock (which it was implied was protected mystically against non-Slayer excavation), they stopped the likes of Caleb from getting ahold of it.

[> [> [> [> [> Did it have to be hidden for millennia? -- Sofdog, 21:30:12 06/17/03 Tue

Couldn't the Guardians have held onto it, delivering it to needy Slayers from time to time? They could it put in a concrete block two years ago and still kept it from The First. And they clearly didn't know what was coming. The Guardian is clearly confused when she says "an end is truly near." She doesn't even know how it can be used effectively, only that it's a possibility. Much as with Graduation Day and all their other exploits Buffy had to think outside the box.

What can I say? Old lady go splat.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Did it have to be hidden for millennia? -- Ion Phlegming, 17:08:47 06/18/03 Wed

"an end is truly near."

possible explanations:

*she meant her own neck-twisting death

*she was referring to Angels fine hiney

*it was Joshs "in" joke about the series finale

*it was actually "a friend is truly near", meaning Spike voyeuring around the next pillar

The Guardian was a daffy old loon who'd won a walk-on appearance in the show by sending thousands of Buffy Trading Card wrappers to the Seniors for Slayers Magazine.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROFLMAO -- curious, 18:18:04 06/18/03 Wed

The Guardian was a daffy old loon who'd won a walk-on appearance in the show by sending thousands of Buffy Trading Card wrappers to the Seniors for Slayers Magazine.

made me laugh. Maybe we take this stuff too seriously. ;-)

Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.1 (WttH) -- manwitch, 21:03:38 06/16/03 Mon

I apologize for being behind.

I watched Welcome to the Hellmouth a couple of nights ago. What is interesting to me looking back is that Buffy seems to have sprung from Joss's head like Athena from Zeus, fully formed and ready for battle. Certainly some of the characters aren't quite what they would become. But in the first episode they serve much more specific functions.

I agree with those who think Cordelia steals every scene she's in. I still think Buffy is a fantastic actress from the get go. The little look she gives Willow when she says, "I'll be back in a minute," is brilliant. And all the performances I think are very strong. But Cordelia gives the show its first real life. Someone you don't like and is yet so appealing and very funny. I feel like the first relationships you really get involved with are Cordelia/Buffy, Cordelia/Jesse and Cordelia/Willow. The scene at the water fountain is really the first scene with emotional impact, the first mo ment when you realize you are starting to care about these characters.

Giles is very eager, which I like. He is trying to be in control, the one that will train and teach Buffy, but the moment he finds out the "vampire is not dead" he shifts instantly into "What do we do? Shall I come with you?" From the very beginning its clear his knowledge is from books, while Buffy's is from experience. She's really the one teaching him.

But I think what is most striking is that Buffy is already hitting on all cylinders thematically. It addresses spiritual needs and issues instantly.

When we first see Buffy she is sleeping and having restless dreams. A couple of things about the dream. Others have already detailed what we see in it. But its interesting to me that the first thing we see Buffy doing is dreaming, wrestling with her subconscious. It suggests that those images she sees, which will be the images of Season One, are really bubbling up from her subconscious, they are her issues, her desires, her fears. Now the dream shows a couple of interesting things. One is particularly interesting because it does not explicitly appear in Season One, nor so far as we know, any reference to it. And that is Shiva's Dance of Life. Certainly one aspect of Shiva's dance of life is the relationship between the mortal and the eternal, the life that lives in the world of forms, and eternal force that animates and is beyond all forms. These are symbolized by the drum in one of Shiva's right hands, which is the beating of time in the world of space, time and forms as we experience it, and by the flame in one of Shiva's left hands, a flame that spreads into the circle of fire that frames the whole statue, which is the flame of eternal life that outlives mortality. We all have an eternal flame animating us that will outlive the mortality of our bodies. You might call it consciousness, perhaps a soul. But this statue immediately suggests to us that we are not the sum total of our lives. There is more to it. Perhaps this will be true of our sleeping heroine as well.

Also, Shiva is the hindu deity that is the ultimate goal of the practice of Kundalini Yoga. The feminine creative serpent power inherent in all, known as Sakti, seeks its union with Shiva, by progressively activating a series of spiritual centers known as chakras, until at the last one, the seventh, Sakti dissolves into Shiva in pure love. But the first task in Kundalini, is to awaken that feminine power, Sakti, and start it on its journey of spiritual enrichment.

And here is Buffy, like Sakti, sleeping and dreaming of Shiva, in the very first moments of the series.

Interestingly enough, the first trip into the subterranean church that will become the home of the Master, begins with Luke repeating a particular line. "The Sleeper shall wake. The Sleeper shall wake. The Sleeper shall wake." Clearly a reference to the Master, but also pretty clearly a metaphorical reference to Buffy, our sleeping heroine. Buffy must awaken spiritually. I believe I have also read that "Buddha" is from a Sanskrit word that means "to awake" or "the awakened one."

Buffy must wake up to her spiritual life.

The Christian imagery is pretty heavy in this episode, what with the angel figures in the cemetery and the numerous crosses. It can be pretty well explained away simply by the Vampire genre itself. Everyone knows that Vamps are afraid of crosses and can beburned by them. There's the whole history of vampire mythology where vampire equals anti-christian.

But its hard to believe the naming of the chief Vampire minion as Luke is accidental. Luke is, of course, one of the gospels, and I believe is unique among the gospels for its detailed description of the early years of Christ, particularly the passage where a twelve year old Jesus books on his parents and is found at the temple conversing with priests and doctors. When asked what the hell he thought he was doing running away like that, Jesus tells his parents, "Don't you know? I must be about my father's business."

I believe that appears only in Luke. And in that passage Jesus is acknowledging his father as God, and his business as pursuing his spiritual life, rather than the worldy intepretation of his father as Joseph and his father's business as carpentry. Now if we see the Master as Luke's father figure, which is reasonable, than certainly Luke is attempting to go about his father's business. But when we consider the parallel that seems to be suggested between Buffy and the Master, and when we think of the Master as part of Buffy's bubbling subconscious, than perhaps Luke is really a reminder to Buffy that she must tend to her spiritual life. Just a thought.

Anyways, I just love the way the show uses frightful images and situations and yet at least hints at speaking to something totally other than fright.

I am intrigued by Cordelia. It is simply too much to believe that the crowd writing this show picked the name Cordelia solely because it's a nice name. They know damn well who Cordelia is. So how does that connect back to Buffy? Cordelia shows in this first episode that she and Buffy are the same, with the same desires and same values, the only difference being that Buffy actually thinks about others, actually seems to have at least the potential of some kind of spiritual commitment. But why the specific reference to Lear? Obviously she is blunt and will not flatter. But I keep coming back to the line from Act III Scene III:

"Poor naked wretches, wheresoe'er you are,
That ride the pelting of this pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these? O! I have ta'en
Too little care of this."

Which to me is what Lear is ultimately about. There is, of course, no physical defense against the pitiless storm of life, but our spiritual commitments and social connections can give us something. Perhaps Buffy, like Lear, is being asked to recognize her spiritual obligations. I really don't know. But I suspect there is a very deliberate allusion to King Lear here.

Perhaps I am raising the think too much quotient a little too high.

But the point remains, that Buffy seems to be ready to attack the deepest and most mysterious of topics from the outset, with both a deep sense of reverence and and a wicked sense of humor.

I think its pretty clear right from the beginning that there is something going on here.

The Top Ten Percent (so far)

1. Welcome to the Hellmouth

[> Excellent -- Sophist, 08:18:32 06/17/03 Tue

I especially appreciated the discussion of Shiva. I noticed that in the dream and was sure the image never reappeared. I don't know much about the Hindu religion, so your posts add a lot for me.

[> Self as Religion -- lulabelle (aka chatlurker *delurking*), 09:00:10 06/17/03 Tue

Hi everyone! *waves* I discovered this board around mid-season 5 and found some of the most intellegent insight into my favorite addiction I've ever seen. I finally got up the courage to visit the chat about a month ago and there I met such an incredibly welcoming and nice group that I decided, what the hey, why not give it a shot and post.

Great post manwitch! I think you're right to see WttH as a wake up call for Buffy. Hey journey is always paralleled by a development of spiritual consciousness and WttH asks Buffy not to forget who she is and to wake up and set out on that path of discovery.

What I think is really key is that everything exists within Buffy. Spirituality on BtVS is not about finding a savior; it is always about finding salvation in oneself.

Buffy dreams of the Master, the cross Angel will give her, the Hindy Goddess. All these things become real in a way because they exist in Buffy and she will wake up to them. The things that masquerade as external are only recognizable when they are viewed from within.

The vampire as anti-Christ is interesting because Buffy is connected to them. Its in this episode that Giles tells Buffy about honing vamps. She can sense them as a part of her. I think the whole imagery is really about religion being self contained.

Buffy refuses to give up on that normal life and what may seem early on like narcisim is key to keeping Buffy whole and not letting her lose herself in being the slayer. The centering on oneself seems really important here. Enlightenment is found within and Christianity, so patriarichal in nature, is not rejected, so much as it needs to be taken within Buffy.

I think everything about the other characters being embodiments of Buffy fits in here too. As does so much of the stuff about Redemptiuon. Spike needing to deny Buffy's love in chosen because it must be about him. Or Darla. In WttH she isn't at all the vamp we see in other eps. Maybe b/c she's given herself up to the MAster. Doesn't she ultimately find redemption through Connor who is literally and figuratively within her when she dies.

I know all these ideas are really sketchy and not well developed at the moment, but I'm home on lunch hour between my US History final and myt Physics final which is in an hour and which I should be cramming for. I just figured since I've finally gotten up the nerve to post I should write something before I change my mind. I'll be back later, hopefully to hash out these ideas a little better throughout the BtVS mythology.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings. And thanks for all your insight - I can't emphasize enough how much I've enjoyed reading your insights for the past 2 1/2 years.

[> [> Welcome. Hope we'll be enjoying your posts for a long time, too! -- Cactus Watcher, 09:09:14 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> Welcome. And good post!! Great insights. -- s'kat, 11:26:08 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> Re: Self as Religion -- manwitch, 16:13:56 06/17/03 Tue

Thanks for delurking.

I completely concur about the "within" stuff. That's what I find so intriguing about the dream image. Its almost as though there is a suggestion that the whole show is about Buffy's dream, by which I mean her subconscious powers. Its an inward journey she's going on.

I found your mention of narcissism interesting:

" Buffy refuses to give up on that normal life and what may seem early on like narcisim is key to keeping Buffy whole and not letting her lose herself in being the slayer. The centering on oneself seems really important here. Enlightenment is found within and Christianity, so patriarichal in nature, is not rejected, so much as it needs to be taken within Buffy."

I will probably argue in the coming episodes that Buffy is, in fact, being narcissistic. My view of it is more negative than yours. But I like what you say about her needing some sort of anchor to keep herself from being completely absorbed by being the slayer. She needs to keep some aspect of herself. I think that's very true and I will be looking for it. I think the show suggests that her desire for normalcy in season one is not a good thing. She has a spiritual obligation one might say. But she does need to find a way of pursuing that spiritual obligation that does not allow "Slayer" to negate "Buffy."

[> [> [> Re: Self as Religion -- lulabelle, 16:41:42 06/17/03 Tue

I think the show suggests that her desire for normalcy in season one is not a good thing.

I agree, and I think that most of this is Buffy's fear of who and what she is. In S1, Buffy hasn't learned what to do with her slayer side yet, but she does know that Buffy the person isn't someone that she wants to lose. I think later on she wants to lose the Buffy part, but embrace the slayer side, and this is huge in s6 and represaents a really dark period for Buffy. So, yeah, the desire for normalcy is something that Buffy will need to lose, but at the same time it is something that represents a love of herself and a confidence in who she is that really gives her that special spark.

I think what's really important about Buffy needing an anchor is that she needs the anchor to be herself. Spike tells her in FFL that she needs her friends and family, and I think he's right, mainly because they help Buffy love her life and because they provide her with support, without which she cannot be comfortable with herself. Buffy can't only rely on others and completely forsake herself...she absolutely must become comfortable with herself before she can truly find peace and spiritual completion. I think this is what the idea of "redemption" is really about in the Buffyverse....not so much forgiveness but self love.

[> [> [> [> Forgivenes vs. Self love -- Q, 12:39:22 06/18/03 Wed

>>>I think this is what the idea of "redemption" is really about in the Buffyverse....not so much forgiveness but self love.<<<

Wow. Excellent point. This makes so much sense when we look at it in conjunction with all of the characters striving for redemption.

By the middle of Angel season 1, Angel has gained the respect and forgiveness of those around him and anybody who would care about him. But he doesn't feel redeemed, because he is nowhere near loving himself yet.

It is painfully obvious how bad Faith hates herself, but toward the end of season 7, she seems to gain more self-efficacy and is starting down the path toward redemption, not because others have finally sort of accepted her, but because she has finally accepted herself. Of course this is still a work in progress, so I hope she hurries back to Joss for another TV series!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Forgivenes vs. Self love -- BMF (delurking again), 15:14:42 06/18/03 Wed

>>>I think this is what the idea of "redemption" is really about in the Buffyverse....not so much forgiveness but self love.<<<

I would tend to say that foregiveness and self-love are essentially the same. Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing speaking, but truly loving oneself, not narcissistically or pridefully but joyfully, can only come through foregiveness. One loses love, both of self and others, through doing wrong, doing things that need to be foregiven. Therefore, redemption, in the sense of overarching foregiveness or personal cleansing, is ultimately manifested through self-love.

By the way, I share your hopes about Faith. She would be an awesome character to study the redemption of. Of course, the reports I've seen (via the SpoilerSlayer) have all called for a Willow-centered series, and her redemption, as hinted at in "Chosen", could also be fascinating.


[> [> glad you delurked! -- anom, 20:39:48 06/17/03 Tue

"Spirituality on BtVS is not about finding a savior; it is always about finding salvation in oneself....All these things become real in a way because they exist in Buffy and she will wake up to them. The things that masquerade as external are only recognizable when they are viewed from within."

Very nice! And you've been holding out on us for 2-1/2 years?

This kind of reminds me of a book title I saw in a Jewish bookstore: There Is No Messiah...and It's You. Um, not that I bought the book, so I can't say anything about what's in it. But I do like the idea of being your own savior/finding salvation within.

[> Does that section at the bottom mean... -- Tchaikovsky, 09:19:38 06/17/03 Tue

We get a Spritual Journey post for every episode? I hope so. This is brilliant.


[> [> I concur, keep it coming manwitch! -- O'Cailleagh, 10:38:13 06/17/03 Tue

[> This stuff is so being added to my annotation pages! -- Rob, 11:29:09 06/17/03 Tue

O/T: Giving a slight variation on my last post: Favorite Heroes and Villains -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:48:06 06/16/03 Mon

Who are your favorite fictional heroes and villains? I'm not talking just about television shows. They can be from novels, plays, short stories, movies, poems, folk tales, comic books, anything. Who is your favorite hero? Who's your favorite villain? Who keeps you rapt in admiration? Who makes you shiver in fear? Who leaves you intrigued with his complexity? Or, her complexity; you know what I mean. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks.

[> Re: O/T: Giving a slight variation on my last post: Favorite Heroes and Villains -- Alison, 09:17:00 06/17/03 Tue

Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara (in the book Gone with the Wind, not that horrid excuse for a movie)...two more complex and enjoyable anti-heroes you could never hope to find.
I could go on and on...but this is a start, and it'll keep the thread alive.

[> Iago. Dazzling. -- Tchaikovsky, 11:19:19 06/17/03 Tue

[> My picks -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:44:19 06/17/03 Tue

Favorite Heroes:

Simba from "The Lion King" (a young child who blames himself for his father's death and retreats to arrested adolesence and the Hakuna Matata philosophy in order to cope, but must finally grow up in order to save his people)

Sherlock Holmes (there's just something about the way he acts and speaks that makes him a joy to read about, but I can't quite put my finger on it)

Favorite Villains:

Hannibal Lecter (what is so absolutely terrifying about him isn't what he physically does; it's what he can make people do; he has that unique gift of getting inside people's heads and making them to anything he wants; that's frightening)

The Wicked Witch of the West (she's so gloriously wicked and proud of it that she couldn't possibly be off this list; plus, she struck fear into the heart of me when I was six years old when she wrote "Surrender Dorothy" in the air)

Randall Flagg from "The Stand" (the most evil character to ever live; he is also a fascinating display of contrasts: human and demon, child and adult, order and chaos; at one moment he seems to be an unstoppable, fear inducing demon, and the next he commits an act of passion that thoroughly screws up his own plans)

[> [> ooh..I forgot Randall Flagg. I *love* the Stand. -- Alison, 12:17:25 06/17/03 Tue

O/T (ish) to LeeAnn, an answer of sorts -- O'Cailleagh, 22:00:54 06/16/03 Mon

Hey LeeAnn. James felt that the best way to support his movie career, and thereby ensure he gets more roles, is to go see his movies! (Unless of course you have some influence in Hollywood!)
I didn't mention the website to him as he had already stated that he dislikes the internet. Apparently its a combination of the amount of stuff flying around about him, and a distrust of technology! (He doesn't like watches either!)


[> Once more, with feeling please -- cougar (a curious cat), 23:53:24 06/16/03 Mon

I'd love to hear more details please, impressions of your experience. I'm fascinated by the acting process and how it relates to
storytelling, introverted and extroverted energies within people, the drives and needs that performing fills.

What did you notice in the difference between James as singer vrs. James as Spike?

I once read an interview where he talked of keeping the character in a separate "box" in his mind, and that actors can get into trouble if
they forget how to shut that box. It got me thinking about which "boxes" in ourselves we shut, which we open and how that effects our
human experience.

I also heard that he was "charisma personified". I have met people who were actors that had that quality, this intense and brilliant
channeling of energy that connects with people around them. It really made me wonder about why some people have that flow, and in
others it is nearly dammed up.

So I don't think it would be too "low-brow" to give us the scoop! What stood out, surprised you. Did you drool? Did you feel clumsy
or smooth in his presence?

[> [> Re: Once more, with feeling please (contains WKCS S5 AtS) -- O'Cailleagh, 10:28:48 06/17/03 Tue

Well, if you insist, cougar, I'll tell you all about it!
James-as-singer/'rock star' was pretty much Spike, except happier/smilier and without the accent, which was freaky! 'Charisma personified' is exactly the phrase I would use, he is one of the nicest people I've met.
It made it much easier to talk to him, I'd been so nervous beforehand but he made me feel completely at ease. It didn't stop me drooling though! The thing that surprised me most of all was how short he is- its funny how someone can look so tall on a 12" screen yet be short when in the flesh!
The gig itself was good too, I'd not heard them before, and now they are my new favourite band. Some very good songs, and well performed. (buy the album now!) There was one song (the name of which escapes me!) which was kind of bitchy and was introduced as being a song about 'a girl (he) met at work'. Not sure how we should take that, but it seemed to confirm rumours of dissension in the ranks.
Oh, and when asked by someone (not me!) if any of the cast were gay, instead of saying yes or no, he replied that he wouldn't out them because he loves them all.
I did manage to speak to James about the move to Angel next season, and he had this to say "I was really upset that it (the news of the move) got out so early, for me it spoiled the ending, took away from Spike's sacrifice" (We reassured him that we still cried! He seemed to like that). When I asked how Spike would return, James said that he didn't know yet, and couldn't wait to find out.
One thing I forgot though, was to try and help him with the pronunciation of 'bollocks'. Oh well, there's always next year, when I go over to LA to hang out at the Viper Room with them all... ;-)


[> [> [> Re: Once more, with feeling please (contains WKCS S5 AtS) -- cougar, 12:57:01 06/17/03 Tue

Well thanks O'Caileagh for the two degrees of separation/ virtual experience. Sometimes getting a glimpse behind the illusion of Television can change your perception of it. I was once on the set of the X-Files and suddenly the set of every show I saw no longer looked believable, all I saw was plywood and backdrop paintings. Had to lull myself into suspending disbelief again. Anyway, glad you had fun and with minimum drool!

[> [> [> What could have been -- mamcu (drooling with envy), 12:57:29 06/17/03 Tue

"...I was really upset that it (the news of the move) got out so early, for me it spoiled the ending, took away from Spike's sacrifice."

It would have really been great for JM and for AtS if we hadn't known. Imagine all the weeping and "Spike Lives" T-shirts, etc.--and then what joy when it turned out that he wasn't gone.

At the same time, if it had played out like that, I would have felt really manipulated (unless it hadn't actually happened until later).

[> [> [> Very cool! -- ponygirl, 13:42:25 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> Interesting -- s'kat, 14:22:04 06/17/03 Tue

Thanks for this Cailleagh.

What I'm curious about is whether his shooting schedule
for Italian Heat is going to conflict with Angel. I doubt it since they probably dealt with it in the negotiations.
But the contract lawyer in me is curious. ;-)

On the height thing - I'm told he's about 5'8 in person.
I remember a friend of mine, who used to be a professional actress, explaining how on film it's better not to be tall, in fact the smaller the better, since sets are so small and it looks better on camera. Big people tend to overwhelm the shot and you have to work around it. She also said that since the average person is between 5'2-5'8, it also works better. I tested her theory and realized that actors such as James Arness, Clint Eastwood, Arnold Schwezneggar really do overwhelm the screen. Sly Stallon, according to William Goldman is not a big man - about a little over 5'ft. Paul Newman was on 5'8, Tom Cruise 5'8, Brad Pitt? 5'8, most actors aren't real tall. And on Btvs - SMG herself was only
5ft - tiny. Which is why DB and MB looked so huge next to her.

Actresses? Very few and hard to get roles. We have Nicole Kidman, Sigourney Weaver, Mareial HEminway, Brook Sheilds,
Julia Roberts - the rest are well under 5'8.

So clearly you can succeed being tall, but it's easier not to be.

The girl he mentioned, probably was an extra he dated. I wouldn't read too much in to it. I've heard the song Dangerous is probably based on MT. But that's just a rumor.
I've only heard the clips though. Album isn't widely distributed - it's not available on amazon or barnes and noble like Ash's was.

[> [> [> [> Re: Interesting -- O'Cailleagh, 15:30:16 06/18/03 Wed

Just to clarify, I heard about Italian Heat somewhere online (might have even been here!)-not from James. Don't know why, just felt it was important that I pointed that out!

Yeah, 5'8" is about my guess too, all I'm really sure of is he's a good coupla inches shorter than me (and I'm about 6').

I checked through the lyrics on one of the GOTR websites, it was 'Dangerous', which wasn't actually as bitchy as I thought. I guess I must've misheard parts of it...comes of being partially deaf I suppose! Oh, the album is available through one of the websites, the U.S. one I think which I believe was www.gotr.com


[> Thanks!! -- LeeAnn, 02:11:54 06/17/03 Tue

Thanks for asking him... but until he makes more movies how can I do that?

But at Moonlight Rising he said:

Um, politics. I love politics. I love examining any center of power and the human machinations that people go through to try to get that power. Uh, because it's all bullshit. History- history, the newspaper, it's all the viewpoint of the winners. And I- to be able to gaze past what they're telling you and try, try to piece together what is actually happening is just fascinating to me. I used to um, I used to watch all 3 news broadcasts, CBS, NBC and ABC. And PBS, in the same evening; I'd tape em. And I really started to notice that the different news organizations spin the news in different ways. They have a lot of power, they could do that. And I started to kinda, this was about ten years ago, started to see beyond that. And uh, it's a real passion. But my brother, we were talking, I forget, I was talking to my brother and he's like when are you gonna run for office. I was like, well, I'd have to cut my hair first. But yeah, maybe, maybe much later. I don't know if I wanna sink down from actor to politician.

So he might enjoy some anonymous political chat.

I don't think he's as techless as we might think since at one convention last year he mentioned he was working on a letter to Joss on his laptop. If he can do word processing he can certainly IRC. And with hard core political chat there is no mention of Buffy or him. And you learn a lot. Stuff never mentioned by corporate media.


[> [> Re: Thanks!! -- O'Cailleagh, 10:49:43 06/17/03 Tue

'Thanks for asking him... but until he makes more movies how can I do that?'
That's what I thought LeeAnn, but I guess that short of a letter-writing campaign to all major Hollywood types, that's probably your best bet! He does have a movie in the works at the moment, Italian Heat I think its called. In it he plays a gay man...I was going to ask him about it, see if he needed any help with characterisation (by which I mean the gay sex!), but I decided not to in the end!
He did seem to be quite political, (highly opposed to Genetically Modified Organisms etc), but I don't think you have much chance of running in to him on a politics board, he really doesn't like the internet at all.


[> [> [> Stars and the internet -- s'kat, 14:10:09 06/17/03 Tue

"but I don't think you have much chance of running in to him on a politics board, he really doesn't like the internet at all. "

Gellar said somewhat the same thing a while back in PRemier when they did an issue on internet sites and SMG said she barely if ever looked at them. She did however make sure that the site carrying her name was kosher. And JM has stated that when he first came on to Btvs in 1997-98, he did hop on the internet, even did a few yahoo chats, then quickly learned to hop off of it, when he realized how it could really mess with your brain (if you're famous) and make you get cocky. He said if he spent much time on it, he would start to believe his own press and forget to just go clean his toilet. He advised his band members to do the same thing - avoid the internet and not spend too much time on their sites or sites fan's set up for them. You get too cocky - you lose it.

I'd have to say - he's right on that. Can you imagine what it would be like to surf the net if you were JAmes Marsters, David Boreanze, Sarah Michelle Gellar or anyone remotely famous with a serious fan following?? Think about it for a minute. Plus unlike some of us, they don't have to be on the net or on a computer all day. I have to check and use email. Something tells me Marsters doesn't. ;-)

[> [> [> [> Rosie O'Donnell was an exception to that. -- WickedBuffy, 17:26:21 06/17/03 Tue

She cultivated fans on the 'net, personally visited her AOL Forum weekly chatting up the people and just plain was online not only at home, but also went online during her television show.

Which could explain her current hatsize. }:>

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Rosie O'Donnell was an exception to that. -- s'kat, 17:36:41 06/17/03 Tue

Well, she's not really in the category of actress so much as talkshow host. Oprah Winfrey does the same thing apparently. Quite a different thing when your biz is chatting up celebrities and discussing books as opposed to being one. (Not that O'Donnel and Winfrey aren't celebrities of course...but well you see my point. ;-) )

And yep...probably explains their hatsize. Fame truly is the cancer of success. ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm reporting you to Ms. O'Donnel. She won't like your non-actress comment at all. -- Kooshball Kelvin, Ro's Sycophantic Soundman, 18:01:37 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> On a sidenote, I met Rosie O'Donnell (have a picture to prove it)...and her head is ENORMOUS! -- Rob, 18:00:30 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> Heh! see? It got that way from reading about herself on the net! -- WickedBuffy ::wondering who Rob DOESN'T have a picture of::, 18:53:42 06/17/03 Tue

(OT) Rob, "Bat Boy: The Musical" is coming to Detroit (my town) this summer. SO excited! -- Rochefort, 00:52:50 06/17/03 Tue

[> Awesome! Do NOT miss it! :o) -- Rob, 07:28:37 06/17/03 Tue

Spike and Quasimodo (slight spoiler Crush) -- mamcu, 09:11:59 06/17/03 Tue

From Crush:

WILLOW VOICEOVER: I just don't see why he couldn't end up with Esmerelda.

Cut to inside. Tara, Buffy, and Willow are walking along the hallways.

WILLOW: They could have the wedding right there. Beneath the very bell-tower where he labored thanklessly for all those years.

TARA: No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding of right.
Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back. (They come to a vending machine and stop walking. Tara digs in her purse. Willow looks in hers as well) Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy.

This sounded so much like an argument I've read often here about Spike, and made me think of the similarities of Spike and Quasi (aside from the bumpiness). Spike's hopeless yearning for Buffy, his monster-hood, his willingness to do anything for her, his self-sacrifice--and maybe what Tara says is true of him. Though I'm of the party who believe Spike went beyond the selfish by the end, I thought this was a striking comparision. Interesting that The Hunchback is discussed in this episode that is so focussed on Spike's unrequited feelings for Buffy--must have been intended as a comment.

(Sorry if this has been said many times.)

[> Fury and Lit References -- Anneth, 11:06:02 06/17/03 Tue

Crush is a Fury ep; one of the things I find interesting about Fury as a writer is that he likes to "borrow" plot lines and devices, (heck, even whole plots!) from other works, and he's quite up-front about it. For instance, in Helpless, he bases Psycho-Vamp-whathisname's tormenting of Buffy on the Little Red Riding Hood myth; he even goes so far as to have Buffy wear a red coat and hood, and have the "wolf" wear it when he curls up on the Summers' porch to lure Joyce out of the house. (IIRC.) Fear, Itself is also a good example of Fury's prediliction; it's a big Wizard of Oz ripoff. It's always fun to see a new Fury ep, for me - "what's he gonna reference tonight?" He may not be subtle about what he's doing, but I enjoy it nonetheless.

[> [> Re: Fury and Lit References -- s'kat, 13:55:58 06/17/03 Tue

What's also interesting about the Hunchback reference is that last year, I remember a poster on either this board or B C & S, stating how Quasimodo in Hugo's work was supposed to be the true hero of the piece. The person stated that this ugly monsterous character's ability to love and sacrifice himself for love overshadowed the more narcissitic characters in the work, the evil Priest who wanted Esmeralda for himself, Esmeralda who wanted the handsome solider, and the solider who lusted after Esmeralda. Ironically it was the monster who had the heart of gold. I've never read this work and it's not how it's been portrayed in the movies I've seen. But the poster seemed to be have done a thesis on it and I found the comments interesting - particularly since they seemed to be the opposite of Fury's twist on it.

What is also interesting is in commentary on Succubus Club (see archives for my transcript of it), Fury states that he misunderstood the character of Spike and Spike could love and show compassion, b/c he was unique amongst the vampires in having retained part of his soul. A comment that got a bit of scoff from Minear, who didn't see Fury's need for such a justification. From Minear's view - vampires could love and do good things for those they loved, yet still be amoral and evil like anyone else. Minear was closer to Whedon on this. It's interesting that Fury in some ways takes the more linear black and white view while Minear and Whedon seem to take a far more gray one regarding Whedon's vampire motif.

[> [> [> Re: Fury and Lit References -- Yellow Bear, 14:18:24 06/17/03 Tue

Do you have a specific link to this archive? In my recollection, Fury has this justification to explain some fan confusion about Spike, not his own confusion when it comes to Spike .

[> [> [> [> Re: Fury and Lit References -- s'kat, 14:24:25 06/17/03 Tue

Look in the atpo existential scooby archives. Under my posting name. May. Succubus Club. Fury.
And no, don't know the link nor did I save the transcript I did.

Or you can goggle Succubus Club and listen to the telecast yourself. Don't have link for that either. Sorry.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Fury and Lit References -- Yellow Bear, 14:33:05 06/17/03 Tue

I didn't want to have to re-listen to the whole broadcast just for a minor point so I thought I would hit you up for the link. Thanks & I will check the archives.

[> [> [> [> [> doesn't seem to be there...did anyone else manage to find the link? -- Alison, 14:34:07 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> Okay here's a repost of the fury/Minear Succubus Club -- s'kat, 15:16:08 06/17/03 Tue

I went to the archives and hunted. HEre's the link:


You have to look under Existential Scoobies not Google
and go to May - it's in Voy's archives not the Web's for some reason.

And for those too lazy to scroll through, here's a repost complete with typos:

Listening to it now and here is a semi transcript:
[]= mine and () mine or summaries
Tim Minear (TM) and David Fury(DF). Commentator (C)
Angel (ATS) and Firefly (F)

Lots of typos and mistakes I'm sure. It's late and this was hard.

TM: David F has very deep and sultry voice, smoked bunch of cigs to help.

Had a hand in breaking stories to ep .7, after Firefly, got back at ep .15 and wrote that story with Mere and came back for finale. [so he co-wrote Orpheus]

TM: Left for F for ep.7, before started production after DG, there was much involvement, then F took over completely and I was accused of abandoning, not naming names, came back, quality spiked then dropped when I returned, strang

DF: offices over at there were comfortable, all F/Btvs/Ats
were together. Ats = WB, Btvs=PAramont, F= Fox.

(Voices hard to figure so excuse mistakes)

[huge section regarding a joke on pretzel keg...can't possibly transcribe it all. And other silly writers jokes and geeky stuff. ]

I spent more time on Ats this year - lots of time downstairs, disenfranchised from Buffy, he went to Ats b/c of TM. Not involved on breaking on Buffy this year.
First time. spent more time on Ats. TM - kept saying come on to ats, you and me buddy...then tM left and he went you suckered me!! But he was there in the beginning of season at least breaking stories, so we felt he was there.
It was okay, fine. Weird year - started out with someone new and thrown in a position couldn't possibly follow. We become sort of a machine. Lot of growing pains. (joke about the show Growing pains) Bell clicked in to do the day to day.

And picked up.

C= that's the big news, talk about later... b/c there's talk and like to talk about the talk.

[Break - 2.5 minutes - Bif Naked's - no clue what it is but I don't remember it from Buffy. Not that good IMHO. Something about banging my head and not hearing a word I said in the chorus. ugh. Ah Moment of Weakness is the name. And the song goes out to Jasmine, AlexisWEb from HLOD. Uhm sorry it wasn't - that's Lucky. ugh ]

C= Down to the wire and we thought we were going to lose both shows...did you know?

DF= Ats was always a bubble show, the network waits until last minute. We didn't know this year, really didn't know.

Sat down with and editor and did all the cool stuff we did the last two years and didn't assume for a moment that network saw it. 20th sent us a tape of another show they'd sent and their's was lame clip packet and said do something like this. So we said we'll do something cool. (The clip package was roswell).

TM - went in there with a movie like one. DG, JW, JB and TM
and decided season finale was really a pilot for next year.
AI offered LA branch of W&F and had to go in pitch it and they have to do it every year. But this season was more drastic. Last year they did a major cliffhanger. But this year was far more serious - major question mark. The direction we're taking was to entice us. Joss pitched it early in the year to writers and they realized they had to change it. Is it too arcy, too soapy, too dark, can new viewers get into it? Can we get more sunlight.

C= was it you

TM= Joss

C= connor coming back?

TM= we decided this before we even cast the role. We had the prophecy that the father would kill the son - but we wanted to go to the Stella Dallas place and decided it way before we cast it. Didn't know exactly how. didn't want to kill him exactly, wanted to do a twist on it.

Don't remember whose idea it was to do - probably Joss, but we all discussed and really loved it. The whole notion of taking away free will for happiness and Angel fighting that and then doing that for his son really felt right.

DF= we knew CC was the Big Bad for A4. But CC was pregnant so how are we going to do Angel doing a fight with the big bad pregnant lady.

it was Tim's idea for both Willow and Darla back, not all Joss. What we came up with CC's pregnancy was that the child - Jasmine would be the true Big Bad. And not big evil guy - no a woman, and it's not an evil woman, but someone who'd bring peace.

TM= we were so bored with the big evil kung fu fighting bad guy.

Jasmine - had a garden of evil element - except there are rules.

TM= CC - initially wanted her to come out of her coma and put her fist through Jasmine's skull. But didn't work b/c CC couldn't work those hours at that point in her pregnancy, all she could do was be in a coma for a part of the period. So we had to work around her. Sometimes things just are the mother of necessity.

C= Why Cordelia as the BB ?

DF=[they always planned it] There's no drama in a love that can be. It creates an emotional resonance for the good mother to turn.

TM= when we had her ascended into heaven...we hated that turned us off, gave wrong thing

DF= actually we didn't know where to go with her there. So we had to figure out where to go from there.

[This was confusing section - voices overlap]

It was her - her body used by this thing. The C/C wasn't supposed to be sexy. It was supposed to disturbing and creepy. TM =No way sexy fun, creepy goodness

DF = no way to bring her back the way she was before, I loved the original Cordy, but since we wrote her out of that, we couldn't

TM= we did erase her memory and tried to bring her back with old Cordy. But we want them to grow

The problem this year was we had an actress who was pregnant...if she hadn't been pregnant we'd never have done it.

Reason I wanted to bring Darla back in Inside Out to bring the closure. But our hands completely tied b/c Cordy got pregnant and had to put it in.

C= she'll be back?

TM/DF = she'll be back in some way, we need closure. She needs to come out of the coma and she is part of Angel and important to his arc. He's longing for her. Always hanging over him. Cares about her as his love.

TM = don't want to see him pining for her.
Talked about not finding her - but a complete repeat of last year.

TM= wrote as a season final, not series final, wrote it as a pilot for next season.

c= would new season include Connor

DF = not in the capacity we had. They'll be an episode where he'll be. Too familiar to Dawn scenerio.

TM= wants to do the episode where possibly these parents have a kid with super-powers and come to Angel for help.
Always try to write from Angel's pov. There's this kid and here's this guy really cool - but he doesn't get him as a dad and that kills Angel because he is the dad, and the father keeps killing the son over and over again.

(Okay this was hard - so will try to fill in gaps, apparently Connor had been written to always exit in a manner like this - either to be killed directly by Angel or in a twist. Also Cordelia was always meant to be S4 big bad because of the emotional resonance of having Angel deal with his love becoming evil and the surrogate mother of his son being so. But CC got pregnant and screwed up the story line - so they had to write around it. And came up with the JAsmine arc which Whedon pitched. Sounds like they really do work collaboratively on this and Whedon throws ideas out and everyone comes to a consensus and plays with it. At any rate I think they were very focused on the theme that Angel is dealing with the father killing the son. Also the whole free will idea of - Angel fighting for it - then as a twist removing it from his son)

[Break song is Pavlov's Bell by Aimee Mann. YES!! My favorite song. Thank you.]

DF = Sleeper - wrote teaser in first act

c= how does getting credited work?

DF = whoever's really up, gets first crack. Story didn't break until half way through it and I was writing Angel 10 at same time. LMPTM - had to prep my episode, 3 kids , and couldn't do it - went to Goddard and asked if he would write it with him b/c had no time

Peace-Out - he didn't write the fourth act, SDeknight wrote the fight scene, Craft and Fain wrote the last scene.

Sleeper - glad to have name on. Doug Petrie actually wrote second act. Aimee Mann wrote the song.

C= Firefly - what's the sit with that.

TM = cancelled, but airing in UK - hello, watch the Sci-Fi channel where it's airing. Sci-Fi channel in US? Not big on Sci-Fi. The whole season, with three unaired episodes, and the gag reel and commentary is coming out on DVD. Beyond that, all can say is Firefly not yet dead.

Going to write a show for Fox called Wonder Falls - so sort of leaving. (Originally called Maid of the Mist but bad title.)

DF = Tim will always have place to go.
C= no more Angel?
TM =I'm gone. I'm executive producing and writing the new series.
DF = Twin Peaks like. about a girl who works in sovenire shop in Niagra Falls and they talk to her and don't know if TM:it's god or what. Or if she's insane. Todd Harland who directed pilot and Malcom in Middle is with it. Going to happen after World Series. talking about mid-season and launched off of American Idol.

Sunday night is the most watched night of TV. So will be put there. Very high profile show. Mid-season very good time.

C= What will be doing? (lots of joking about Buffy ending)
DF = Not sure if he will be staying with Angel
SDeknight, Drew Goddard, JBell, (if angel hadn't been picked up TM would have picked up DGoddard), Mere has left - she's completely gone, Ben Edlund is there and was a huge part of firefly and we wanted him, Craft and Fain definitely staying. Fury has some offers - I'm officially an consultant, if I come to Angel - they'd have to make a whole new deal with me and Angel is operating on a smaller budget next season and Buffy was very low budget and 1st season was shot on 16 mm of buffy. Anyways...they had to cut back on expenses.

TM = DB went out of his way to get the show renewed. He promoted it. Went to all the talk shows. Went out of his way. Really is on board for next year and Really Really excited to be back.

DF = WB wanted more out of Buffy World, WB never gave its due until this year. This year more than ever - were responding. Gave calls - great episode.

TM = the Execs at the network love the show, but not in charge of picking it up. Decisions made by people in NY. Had to crunch numbers. Show saved itself.

DF = Doing very well on Sunday. Best in that slot of anything. Numbers go up in 2nd half hour. Which is a big deal. New for the season. Good reviews. Great demographics.

TM = moved it to Wed's after Smallville, finally realized put Superman and Batman on same night.

DF = Know where Smallvill comes out, (ours we don't)

(jokeing about Dawnson's Creek season finale)

[Break. Song: Mrs. Xander Harris - the song from Selfless.
Cool!!! ]

(Filling in gaps - apparently DF may or may not be on Angel next year. He didn't sound like it though. Tim Minear definitely isn't. Nor is Mere Smith. The definites are: Joss Whedon, Drew Goddard, Craft and Fain,Steve Deknight, Jeff Bell, and Ben Edlund)

(lots of joking about Drew Goddard.)

C= when does it start breaking

DF = starts in June. Something we've done before, we often break one or two before go off. But didn't do it this year. So come back a little early to do it. Last year late soon.
Joss will be writing and directing first episode of next year.

C= JM - what was decision

DF?TM = No brainer. James was always. We're going to keep James employed b/c he's great. We love him dearly.

Now getting hatemail Spike or I'm ruining Buffy. Silly.

James is coming back as Spike. We really haven't worked out what he'll be. He'll be a foil.

TM:Faith spin-off, I was going to do it with JM and Faith.
After that fell through and definitely bring him over for some episodes not make a regular, but was one of the things network wanted. we like James so decided to bring him in.
He's terrific. But we don't know what he'll be. Except definitey a foil

C= Second Billing?

DF/TM= we don't know.

We did NOT push anyone out to make room for Spike. Connor story ended the way we wanted it to. We love Vincent but that was the way the story wanted to tell itself. We did not in any way push aside characters or push them out to make room for Spike

DF= there will be more female characters, some seen before and some new ones.

TM/Df = Jonathan Woodward - who played Holden was in the last unaired Firefly. He is wonderful and was in Tim's Firefly episode. He's a star.

C= Gwen?

DF = yeah we love Gwen. The thing about Gwen is run the risk a little bit - take away a little bit from the main character.

TM = originally designed to come back. Look for a female protoganist/antogaonist in the mix. Lilah will be back.
Not sure what they'll do.

(TM - mentions that Angel did do statutory rape on Buffy, since she was 16 at the time not yet 17, turned it just after and it's not legal. )

(okay filling in the gaps during the music break - they talk so fast - apparently, there's been a lot of comments that Spike pushed out the other characters - and that is simply NOT true. Connor's story was written before he was cast. They had decided it would end at the end of S4. They always planned on keeping James MArsters - whether the spin-off was slayer school (male lead) or Faith - he'd be there.
When that didn't happen they decided to bring him on for a few episodes on Angel. The network made it clear that they wanted James as part of the series and it was the clincher.
So they compromised and agreed to make him a regular to get the series picked up by the network, but this really wasn't a problem since they adore James Marsters and think he's a terrific guy. What his role will be? They aren't sure yet, but he will be a foil. The commentary asked if he'd be a villain and they said that wasn't really it and no, more a foil. Damn! Now I'm going to be searching for spoilers all summer. Also Joss Whedon is writing and directing the first episode of the season. Please note that these guys aren't still with Angel so - while they may not know what is coming, joss definitely appears to.)

[Music - selection from When She Was Bad]

(still joking about Drew Goddard - now about Buffy)

DF = She'll be gone regardless. She's on to movies now.
(joking about Scooby Doo now)
C= Talk about the run?

DF = still freelancing, didn't come on permanent until the 4th season. Joss always thinks of me being around since the begining , met him when Joss was in development first year.
Great experience to be part of something so meaningful to people. Once in a lifetime thing to find a show like Btvs that changes face of entertainment. Alias inspired.

TM = Joss' joke, only show on WB not trying to be Buffy is Angel.

Df = wistfullness, knowing part of it, great thing JW gave me. Hope can live up to it and other work can mean as much.

C= What are your thoughts on this season?

DF = The season's been - we struggled a little with the arc, b/c FE's inability to do any harm itself and the new girls potentials became very crowded and diffused. Did good work within that. It gets to the heart about what Buffy means. When people take a step back from it after the season is over - will have more affection for it.

Anyone who really thought about last season - very dark and compelling - but necessary if tell the story telling. We had to earn her coming back from dead and it's difficult story - too quickly feel cheated. Characters grow and change need to do it. As much as have affection for early years - is false for us to go back and recreat it, creates pain but also creats interesting stories.

(Commentators go on about their opinions)

TM = trace back to an episode when Spike ruined the show
DF = was school hard.
I got this hate mail about how Spike was the Fonzi. He was the cool character with leather jacket which we wrapped the show around and that's NOT how we write our shows. Spike provided Buffy with an emotional through line she wouldn't have and Angel was gone, own show, making him her nemesis and mortal enemy at first was interesting way to go.
now I wasn't for B/S but I rationalized that.

LMPTM - they thought we were changing the whole vampire mythology - Spike is an anamoly in the vampire world. We tried to say it in the very beginning in Surprise, his mother, he is something special, he retained some part of his soul or compassion that was always there that allowed him to fall for Buffy. Whatever we told was always there.

TM = don't have to rationalize it at all - the vampires retain the human personality, of course they'd care.

DF = with Spike, there's something different about him.
A vampire without a soul was able to fall for a slayer.

(Agreeing he was a sensitive bad poet not a jerk like Liam.)

TM = always amuses me when people say that people can't love without a soul. They can love quite well. Evil people can love even with souls.

Love and obsession not necessarily a force for good.

DF = chip triggered things from consciousness, all emotions from human side came forth and he was suddenly able to care about Dawn and Joyce.

(Lots of spec on the finale and the writers trying to say zip and the commentator is driving them nuts. ugh)

((Joking about the hate mail and fan response on Spike. TM and DF really joking about these fans.)

(Filling in the gaps - apparently Spike took over Angel's place in Buffy for the emotional arc. They state how he's always been different - that he retained a portion of his humanity and how they've gone out of their way to distinquish each vamp. There is no indication btw that Spike won't go evil before the end and won't be a villain on Angel next year. Nor is there any indication that he won't be a good guy and turn good. They really don't paint it one way or the other. Fury says he had problems with the Spike story, because he felt it was off-track but has reconciled himself to it, early on he felt need to justify, but now he gets it, Minear seems really confused by Fury's reaction and said he didn't see why he ever had to rationalize it.)

C= asking Tim about Buffy.

TM = I never worked on Buffy. She was in one of my episodes of Angel.

DF = I'll talk to Tim about Buffy story.

TM = to me its bigger than Buffy, working with Joss, David and crews, writers - incredibly rich experience, no ennui b/c my relationships will always continue. Goes beyond job.
This was the best film school and got to direct, first directing on Angel. First time directed network tv show. Been making films since a kid. Better than a movie, because get to write, direct and constantly change things as I'm directing. I didn't work on Buffy.

(Lots of chit-chat and annoying joking.)

David Fury - I got so much hate mail from singing. Really.
TM - can't imagine getting the hate mail for singing.

(He sang the mustard song with Tim Minear.

Okay it's wrapping up. And I'm exhausted it's 1 am.

Tried to keep objective.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And here's the B C & S post on Hunchback of Notre Dame -- s'kat, 15:28:46 06/17/03 Tue

Thanks to the amazingly cool lurker friend who sent it to me!! And happened to save the post. Very nice!!!

Date Posted: 08:05:45 03/08/02 Fri
Author: mlgm
Author Host/IP: NoHost /
Subject: Re: Excellent Foreshadowing from Crush-Nope just really stupid literary opinion
In reply to: UHC 's message, "Excellent Foreshadowing from Crush" on 08:05:45 03/08/02 Fri

"No, see, it can't end like that, 'cuz all of Quasimodo's(Spike) actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding of what was right. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who'd never be able to love him back. Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending, when the main guys all bumpy."

But you do realize in the entire history of literary crit that ranks in the Top Ten stupidest, right?

You have read Hunchback, right?

You do realize that Hugo was writing a screed against the corruption of conscience by Church and State?

You do know Hugo used the entire book to prove that THE ONLY MORAL COMPASS worth having was a loving heart?

You do know Hugo argued that be loving one person you learned to love all people?

You do know Hugo believed loving, whether or not the love was returned, was the greatest good, the greatest virtue in all the world?

You do know realize Q was the most moral character in the book?

You do know the churchman and the soldier, the traditional heros (ie Buffy, Willow, and Xander), were evil because they used traditional moral compasses of society instead of being guided by love?

You do know by the standards of the novel, Spike is the most moral character on Buffy?

You do realize that Tara was just plain wrong in her opinions on Q?

You do realize that right?"

LOL! No, David Fury was either wrong or has an amazingly dark sense of humor and enjoyed doing his own little twist on Hugo's work.

Thank you again, to the wonderful person who saved this for me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And here's the B C & S post on Hunchback of Notre Dame -- Yellow Bear, 15:57:54 06/17/03 Tue

This is very interesting but I've never read Hunchback so I have to take this reading with a grain of salt. After all, different interpretations of the same text is what this little discussion forum is all about.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Anyone out there care to give their take on Hunchback?? -- s'kat, 16:18:08 06/17/03 Tue

Had somewhat the same response, since I haven't read it either. Although, the Charles Laughton version does in some ways support this reading of the text. So does the Disney version for that matter. But again, as we've discovered just analyzing Buffy, each take is very different and indicative of the specific reader or viewer.

The person who had this take - I believe had studied the text in depth and written a thesis on it. So they knew more than most. Would love to see someone else whose studied it give their take. Any takers??

(Oh in case there's any confusion - I did not necessarily view Spike in S5-S7 or the other characters in the way this person did. Just reposting another view is all.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And here's the B C & S post on Hunchback of Notre Dame -- fresne, 12:26:18 06/18/03 Wed

Exactly, reactions can be so varied. Since when I read Hunchback, I desperately wanted Esmeralda to end up with the priest. I mean okay, he was a priest, but he had such a consuming hunger for knowledge. He wanted to know. To understand. I found that incredibly compelling. He was in his way rather like Willow. Internally compelled to a study of the dark arts, because he felt that the light held no more secrets to study and he had to know. To see.

Which makes an interesting contrast to Quasi, who is deaf, blind and practically mute. Speaking instead the language of bells. Or for that matter Esmeralda's "husband" the writer, who constantly observes, records and yet is somewhat distanced from all of the action.

But then you get into the meat of the text and after that I'd rather she had ended up with the dancing goat than with any of the remaining ships in harbor. Alas, French Gothic Literature. Oh, yeah, that's going to have a happy ending.

Poor goat.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for reposting s'kat. Both the interveiw and the hunchback post were worth reading -- Alison, 17:48:56 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Fury and Lit References -- Yellow Bear, 14:56:24 06/17/03 Tue

I found it. Congrats on an amazing job of transcription. I think I would lose my mind trying to transcribe around Kitty & Candy.

BTW, I love Kitty & Candy for doing these interviews (they both seem lovely) but they ask the worse questions sometimes. Drew Goddard was about to go into how they broke S7 and they cut him off with some question about his writing background. It was a true scream-at-your-radio moment.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yup. I'll never ever do it again. -- s'kat, 15:20:53 06/17/03 Tue

You're more tolerant of them than I am. :-) Fury and Minear actually were pretty good at holding their own. So were RKK, JE, and Greenberg. I think Goddard's problem was it was one against two.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yup. I'll never ever do it again. -- Yellow Bear, 15:50:39 06/17/03 Tue

I hear what your saying about K&C but I didn't want to be too mean. Succubus Club interviews are some of the best peaks behind the curtain we have so I hate to seem churlish about the quality of the interviews.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yup. I'll never ever do it again. -- s'kat, 16:01:04 06/17/03 Tue

Oh don't worry too much - they stay off fan boards. ;-)
Actually the interviews are pretty good. And they aren't that bad at all. Tend to make the writers feel at ease, so at ease that they sometimes say things they shouldn't.
Minear got in trouble for that interview (I didn't transcribe everything he said.)

The best?
On the fence. I've seen a few better ones here and there on city of angels and SFX. Yeah, I'm not obsessed, not me. (sigh) ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yup. I'll never ever do it again. -- Yellow Bear, 16:21:42 06/17/03 Tue

SFX is great, especially when they have Noxon or Minear do an episode break down of an entire season. It's so strange because I don't even like sci fi (so I tend to come at Buffy from a different angle than most) but I find myself buying SFX often which a few years ago I could not even imagine.

As for K&C, they are good at getting the writers relaxed & happy so the anecdotes start flying but they never seem to ask the questions I want to hear. So many interesting things in LMPTM that they never even touched on.

[> [> The meaning of Quasimodo -- mamcu, 17:50:31 06/17/03 Tue

You may remember this from English class, but if not: Quasimodo was left at the cathedral the Sunday after Easter, called "quasimodo" Sunday because the Latin gospel for the day began "quasi modo.." or "almost like" and continued so that it read "almost like newborn babes." The name definitely had overtones of resurrection. I interpret that to mean that Q. was reborn in his love for Esmerelda and Spike is reborn in his love for Buffy. But reborn completely, or just from the depths they were in before the women appeared--not clear to me.

[> [> [> Intriguing! I like it! :> -- WickedBuffy, 18:06:07 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> [> Disney says Quasimodo means "half-formed". Disney lies! -- Scroll, 19:58:29 06/17/03 Tue

Actually Disney may not have actually lied since I do think "quasi-modo" *does* mean half-formed. But that's probably not the original reason for Q's name, it's probably as you say, and it's clearly not the complete meaning.

[> [> [> [> Well, there was an earlier, British movie that Disney borrowed heavily from . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:49:12 06/17/03 Tue

That movie also said Quasimodo meant either half-formed or half-human.

Can't really reccomend the movie. Bad acting, bad effects, bad directing. Only point of interest is that Quasimodo is played by Anthony Hopkins.

The Harvest -- CW, 08:26:26 06/17/03 Tue

It's almost a shame to talk about "The Harvest" separate from WttH since they were orginally shown as a single two hour episode. But, there is a different feel about the two . The first is almost an homage to classic horror, one spooky or shocking scene after another, but mixed with snappy humor. The second is far more campy, with Luke's speechifying and Buffy's idiotic pausing mid-battle to grin at a lame and improbably detached joke from Xander. Happily, the campy stuff was dropped from the show fairly quickly, and the clever stuff like Buffy's daylight "in about nine hours, moron!" survived.

The most interesting thing for me watching it this time is the difference in social structure between the humans and the vamps. The good guys are close to anarchy with Buffy defying the rules of the school and her mother, Xander ignoring Buffy's advise to stay away, Willow breaking into the city's secure files, even Giles running a covert fighting establisment under the noses of the authorities. The vamps have some rebels as well, both Darla and Jesse get hungry and want to sample the "product" intended for the Master. But, by and large the bad guys are a dictatorship. It's do what the boss says, or lose an eye (!), or as we soon learn, your life. One of the first things that happens when Spike arrives is that this dictatorship is overthrown, and the vamps become a lot more like the chaotic humans.

That's a start. What else do people have for discussion?

[> Ooops...didn't see this here, or I would have put mine here. Sorry. -- Q, 18:09:05 06/17/03 Tue

Great observations. The "anarchic" nature of the human heroes is something I never though of.

One problem with your post... Am I the only one who has major trauma now whenever someone uses the phrase "lose an eye"?

Dawn and Connor -- pinkpansy, 09:27:12 06/17/03 Tue

The more I think about it, Dawn and Connor share many similarities. Dawn is really not meant to be Buffy's sister, the monks HAD to protect the key so they made it into a human form as Dawn and GAVE it to the slayer to protect. Dawn became Buffy's sister through circumstance, not the natural order of life. Dawn required a whole change in the fabric of reality because she really wasn't meant to live in the REAL reality. Connor, also part of a bigger plan, was manipulated into existence by Jasmine. His life also would never have come to be if some outside force weren't willing it so. Connor was conceived by Angel and Darla not because of a natural order but a manufactured order (Jasmine) much like Dawn. Now, here's my question: If Connor and Dawn both have such bizarre origins in the world, why is it that Connor struggles with this so much more than Dawn? Connor battles the ambiguity of his life all the time to the point where he holds people hostage and declares that no one ever loved him or wanted him. Does Dawn have a stronger sense of herself? Or is she really just suppressing her insecurity. Buffy and Dawn, come to think of it, never really sat down and talked about this. Dawn went through a brief period in S5 with the exploration of how she came to be and she DID struggle with her feeling of not being "Real" but then Glory got in the picture and these feelings were sidetracked. Then in S5, the shoplifting was a minor act of rebellion but I think Dawn and Connor are both coming from the same place and yet Connor is definitely the more extreme case. Any thoughts?

[> Re: Dawn and Connor -- superglowy, 09:47:11 06/17/03 Tue

Connor's a whiner and Dawn kicks ass!!!

[> Their differences: -- HonorH, 10:14:10 06/17/03 Tue

Dawn remembers a family where she was loved and nurtured. Connor grew up in a Hell dimension with a man who was using him to wreak revenge on his real father. While Dawn's been through a great deal of trauma, she has that loving, stable background to her life. That's why she's able to maintain such a strong sense of self. Connor never had that. He never had stability or anyone to show him what real love is. Thus, when he comes back to our dimension, he's easily manipulated first by Holtz and then by Evil!Cordy. Every time he thinks he has love or stability in his life, it's ripped away or shown to be a lie. In the end, he can no longer even believe in love or family. Dawn is Buffy's triumph; Connor is Angel's tragedy.

[> [> the ME monkey experiment -- WickedSimian, 10:25:11 06/17/03 Tue

It reminds me of those experiments with baby monkeys about nuturing.

One set of monkeys were given the minimum of contact and nuturing and the other set was given the regular amount. The two sets grew up into to become very different from each other. The nonnurtured ones were pretty screwed up. The others were fine.

Always comes to mind when comparing how Connor and Dawn turned out.

[> [> [> Re: the ME monkey experiment -- Plin, 13:47:30 06/17/03 Tue

Great comparison.
In the monkey experiments I remember studying, the deprived group had mock "mothers" made of wire. It was wrenching to see how they clung to them, seeking whatever comfort they could get from an empty frame of cold steel.

Reminds me a lot of Connor and Holtz.

[> One small point that usually bothers me .... -- WickedBuffy, 11:03:38 06/17/03 Tue

Very nice post! Your descriptions of Dawn and Connors differences were great.

I disagree on one point though. I've seen it posted before, so it's not new. But it confuses me whenever it's stated.

The part about what's "reality". If it happens, it's reality. No matter where it came from or why. Dawn and Connor are real (ME universe-wise).

"Dawn became Buffy's sister through circumstance, not the natural order of life."

"His life also would never have come to be if some outside force weren't willing it so."

Outside forces play a huge part in where most everything comes from. Any birth is the result of a very long string of people meeting, inflluencing, missing one person to meet another, turning this corner instead of that to get here instead of there.

"The natural order of life" is something people have argued about forever, it seems. Some believe that only following a very strict and rigid set of rules is the natural order of life, anything not within those boundaries is "unnatural". There are millions of variances as to what each individual personally believes is "natural". That part is difficult to come to agreement on.

But reality is whatever is real. From the dictionary:

"re·al·i·ty :
1. The quality or state of being actual or true.
2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: "the weight of history and political realities" (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4. That which exists objectively and in fact

1. Existing and not merely potential or possible. See Synonyms at real1.
2. Being, existing, or acting at the present moment; current.

Dawn and Connor are realities. They currently exist. Just like Buffy is real, even though her Slayer powers came from outside forces.

The "natural order of things" is more of an individual definition than a dictionary dictate. I understand that some may argue that Dawn and Connor were unnatural, but don't understand how they could be argued as not "real", not part of reality.

Those two terms are different to me.

..... umm, and no fresne, this is not a lead-in to an essay about "The Velveteen Rabbit". }:>

[> [> You must stop stalling on that essay...;-) -- Tchaikovsky, 11:08:23 06/17/03 Tue

Or perhaps you're polishing so that it's word-perfect when it comes?!

TCH- still refreshing hopefully

[> [> [> errrrrrrr... someone stole my keyboard and wrote that Rabbit comment. -- WickedBuffy ::looking around suspiciously::, 18:56:06 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> Re: One small point that usually bothers me .... -- pinkpansy, 11:57:33 06/17/03 Tue

I completely agree. By my saying "not the natural order", I meant Dawn didnt come into her existence through the conventional, so-called "normal" methods. But nevertheless- her existence probably just deviated from a former path that would have played out. This now goes into the topic of fate and determining factors of why things happen, cause-effect, that whole thing. The scenarios are endless of what Buffy's life would have been like if Dawn didn't come. Anyway, I agree that whatever happens is a part of reality and one can never know for sure what would happen if that factor didnt play out. It relates to Fred and Gunn in Inside Out, the little decisions are ours, but when it comes to the big things, we have no control. I loved Gunn's point that we should grasp every decision as if it were our own.

Spike and Dru - Question -- Rosie, 15:22:48 06/17/03 Tue

When did Spike and Drusilla really first become a couple? Right after she had sired him in 1880? Or when he killed his first Slayer in 1900?

[> Re: Spike and Dru - Question (LMPTM spoiler) -- s'kat, 15:57:09 06/17/03 Tue

According to the following scene from LMPTM, they became a couple in 1880 right after siring:

CLOSE ON IT as a feminine hand slides over his palm.
SPIKE looks up as
DRUSILLA pulls WILLIAM up to his feet, from the sofa, and they dance, twirling about, laughing as they kiss.
Ooh, such a pretty house you have,
sweet Willy. Smells of daffodils and
Don't get too attached, now. Won't
be here for long, love.
Well, then...
She sweeps over to the couch. Sits down seductively.
DRUSILLA (cont'd)
Shall we give it a proper good-bye?
You are a saucy one, aren't you?
He plops down next to her, pulling her to his lap and they kiss, passionately.
WILLIAM (cont'd)
Oh, Dru... we'll bring the world to
its knees...
It's ripe and ready, my darling.
Waiting for us to devour its fruit.
We'll ravage this city together, my
pet. Lay waste to all of Europe.
The three of us will teach the snobs
and elitists with their falderal just
You, me and Mother. We'll open their
veins and bathe in their blood as
they scream our names across the--
(off her look)
(squinting at him)
You-- You want to bring your mother
with us?
Well... yeah.
You'll like her.
To eat, you mean?
He grins at what he perceives as a joke. Before he can respond...

According to Petrie's DVD commentary on FFL - Spike won Dru in 1900 with the killing of the Slayer. Since LMPTM is more recent than PEtrie's commentary and you can read the Boxer
Rebellion scene either way...I'd go with what is in the text for LMPTM. I think being vamps? They were a couple way before 1900.

[> [> "Spike won Dru in 1900" -- WickedBuffy, 19:44:18 06/17/03 Tue

I like how you put that.

I always thought they were having sex with each other and whomever else right away. And as you said, Dru wasn't serious until that night Spike killed the Slayer and shared the blood. They had a much deeper bond after that adventure.

[> I think 1880 (spoilers 7.17) -- Maura, 16:00:14 06/17/03 Tue

I've heard theories for both 1880 and 1900, but in LMPTM they seemed pretty involved right after she sired him, so I'm going with 1880. Of course, it all may depend on how you define "couple." Maybe they started having sex in 1880 but became an established item in 1900?

[> My own personal theory -- LadyStarlight, 18:27:29 06/17/03 Tue

(warning -- those allergic to spackle might want to skip this)

My feeling is the 1880/1900 split can be explained by looking at Angelus. In 1880, Drusilla was firmly under Angel's thumb, and he and Darla traded command of their little 'family' back and forth. It seemed to amuse Darla to let him take command, in fact.

1900, however, brings about the schism between Angelus/Darla (the soul thing) and he leaves the family for good. It is implied in the flashbacks (and in Spike and Dru: Pretty Maids All in a Row, which, while not canon per se, was approved by someone at ME) that Spike and Dru also parted ways with Darla shortly thereafter. Spike also killed his first Slayer, something Angelus never did. This probably elevated his status in Dru's eyes, turning him into more of a peer than someone she sired. That's how I explain it, anyways.

[> [> I like your theory, LadyS :o) -- Scroll, 08:50:25 06/18/03 Wed

While I do understand that everything that shows on screen is considered canon, I think LMPTM is kind of a ret-con in terms of the Spike/Dru relationship. I don't see Spike getting Dru's "affections" quite so easily, at least not once Dru takes Spike home to meet Daddy. I think Angelus would've put a stop to any of Spike's notions that he and Dru would be a real "romantic couple". In fact, from the flashbacks of "Fool For Love", I'd say Angelus didn't really think Spike was *good* enough for Dru. And that it isn't until the Angel/Darla schism after Angel gets back his soul, and when Spike kills his first Slayer, that Dru finally shifts her attentions from Daddy to Spike.

Heh. Spackle, spackle. Well, not really. I do think this theory is sound and makes more sense than Spike getting to be Dru's (real/full-time) lover for those twenty years between 1880 and 1900.

[> [> [> Relationship -- Rina, 09:05:05 06/18/03 Wed

I think that Drusilla considered Spike (or William) as hers, from the moment she sired him in 1880. After all, "she" was the one who sired him, not Angel. In her eyes, Spike was another toy (an opinion, I suspect that never really left her). However, I don't think Spike was elevated to the higher position as her partner, until he killed his first Slayer and Angel finally broke with the family in 1900.

[> [> [> LMPTM and the Fanged Four -- Valheru, 12:55:46 06/18/03 Wed

That is precisely where I have my biggest problem with Lies My Parents Told Me, Scroll. Most of the attention on that episode focused on Spike's decision with Wood and the "lesson" VampWilliam learned from his mother, but it was how Angelus, Darla, and even Dru were sort of pushed aside in regards to William's transformation into Spike that bothered me.

It could just be me. Maybe I made too many assumptions from Fool for Love (and not seeing Darla can't be helping either). But I really don't think, given what we know of the Fanged Four, that LMPTM makes much sense.

First of all, I presumed that William did one of two things about his mother: 1) killed her outright, Angelus-like, in rejection of his pre-vampire self, or 2) simply forgot about her. The first option in particular fits very well, since Spike--more than any other vampire--seems obsessed with destroying all vestiges of his human life. At least Angelus and Darla somewhat enjoyed the people they were in life; Spike hated William. So why in the world would a liberated-from-the-bonds-of-conscience William want to save the most dominant force of his human life? LMPTM tries to explain it as Spike's uniqueness, but we already knew Spike was unique, even as far back as S2, and great amounts of Seasons 5-7 were dependent upon everyone understanding this; episode 139 is a little late to be hammering the idea home.

There is a strong implication that the events of LMPTM are the defining moments in the creation of Spike. Forget for the moment that it isn't even alluded to in FFL. FFL establishes the idea that William became Spike to exact revenge on a world that ridiculed him and to get attention from the women who would otherwise think him beneath them. LMPTM, however, indicates that the Spike persona begins not with Cecily or William's "friends" or Drusilla or even the influence of Angelus and Darla--it was Anne. It wasn't anger and rage that created Spike, but rather despair. William didn't say, "So the world thinks me beneath it? I'll show them!"; it was as though he said, "My mother didn't even love me! Woe. Woe!" and then spiraled downward into Spike. In other words, LMPTM sends the message that William didn't rise into Spike, he fell into Spike.

Did we need that message? Certainly it reinforces the position that vampirism isn't a valid life choice, that it's a degeneration of character. But this means that William knew Spike was a degeneration, created out of misplaced depression. It implies that Spike acted from misery. What's wrong with that, you might ask? Well, it means that while almost every other vampire experiences unashamed glee in their unlife, Spike--the vampire who had always displayed the extremity of vampiric bliss--wasn't happy at all; he was unsuccessfully trying to fill in the void of lost maternal love (which contradicts Spike's FFL assertion that "getting killed made me feel alive for the very first time"). The only other exception is Angelus, who was trying to do the same with paternal acceptance. But there's a difference: Angelus' problems were in life as Liam, but William didn't lose his mother's love until he was a vampire. Which begs the question: Did HumanWilliam's problems influence Spike at all? Or was Spike solely the effect of VampWilliam's problems?

LMPTM also diminishes the role Angelus and Darla had in their "children's" unlives. Apparently, there was no impression upon William of demonic influence (hence his cluelessness about his mother's changes), so either William was completely devoid of Spike's later acute perception or Angelus was nowhere near as evil around his vampire family as he was around everyone else. And it seems that William thought it was a perfectly perfect idea to bring his mother into the group, that Darla wouldn't rip Anne to shreds even on the possibility of losing her maternal dominance. I can see Dru neglecting to mention such things to him (and it's not clear if William met Angelus and Darla beforehand), but you'd think Angelus and Darla would have killed Anne and William for presuming to do anything without their consent (and Drusilla would surely have been punished).

IMO, it was all just poorly thought-out revisionist history. Granted, both Spike and Angel have had their pasts tweaked over the years (and FFL didn't completely jibe with Spike's previously-known history either), but changing things with what they then-figured was only five episodes left in Spike's existence is rather pointless. "Everything you thought you knew about Spike was all wrong! See ya!" And to have it all done just to set up a one-episode parallel between Spike, Wood, and Buffy is almost depressing.

Phew! Got a bit rantish there. Anyway, back to point. IMO, the changes to Spike's history in LMPTM alter his motivations, thus changing his whole character. From it, his love for Dru in S2 changes from a tender remnant of humanity in two evil creatures into one miserable man's pathetic attempt to recreate his mother in a crazy girl. It makes his love for Buffy even more loserly. It turns his view of Joyce from repsect to projection.

I honestly don't see why any of that was necessary.

[> [> [> [> Re: LMPTM and the Fanged Four -- leslie, 14:28:23 06/18/03 Wed

Hmm, I see no evidence that Spike/William had even met Angelus and Darla at the time of LMPTM. My reading of it was that Dru turned him, buried him and waiting for him to rise (according to what I have been informed was her own modus operandi), and then the two of them had a weekend of wild sex and came home to eat the servants. As for when Spike and Dru's "partnership" became viable, well, it seems to me there's a pretty distinct withdrawal on Dru's part when William suddenly starts babbling about how much fun it will be to have Mom along for the ride--possibly the only time in history when it's Dru who's looking like she thinks Spike's the one who's nuts. Which makes me wonder--was Dru trying to set up her own Fang Gang, and then decided that it would be better to bring her new toy home to Daddy after all?

As for the "demonic influence," well, it seems to me a pretty good joke that the sensitive poet who doesn't like to think about nasty things and believes that they should be left to the authorities to deal with, suddenly turns into an advocate of class warfare as soon as he's vamped. Every age has its own definition of demonic, and to the Victorians, that really would have been top of the list. And to top it off by bringing home a working-class trollop of whatever degree of liveness or deadness and present her to his mother as his lover--jeeze! If you're going to do that kind of thing, you set her up in a nice little apartment somewhere and never, ever allow her to come near your respectable family. Here his mother is expecting him--realistically or not--to be bringing home a bride who is obviously significantly more upper class than they, and he comes in with Dru, a Cockney nutcase even when she was alive, and evidently Catholic to boot? Now that's demonic.

So that appears to be what Spike's first few days as a vampire were. How he dealt with the stuff with his mother--seeing the episode on FX last night when he helps Dawn try to resurrect Joyce suddenly made a hell of a lot more sense. This is a guy who really knows what it's like to want to resurrect your mother because he's done it himself, and he's going to be sure that Dawn does it right, unlike what he did. And even before that, his honest grief at Joyce's death. I also think they did a wonderful job of making William's relationship with his mother echo his relationship with Joyce as it was established in previous seasons--the scene before the party with Anne has a lot of the same dynamics as the scene where he's sitting in the Summers kitchen listening to Joyce tell a story about what happened at work that day, and in both cases, he's about to try to convey his feelings to a woman who is going to reject him out of hand.

[> [> [> [> [> Great post -- Sophist, 16:50:06 06/18/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Very well done. Agree. That's exactly what I saw. Great post. -- s'kat, 19:52:47 06/18/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Spike in Forever -- Yellow Bear, 20:35:13 06/18/03 Wed

Ohmygod, Spike's actions in 'Forever' always confused me. I understood his affection for Joyce but it never seemed compelling enough to risk Buffy's scorn at a botched resurrection. Now, it all makes perfect sense in light of LMPTM. This is actually one of the few character things that bothered me in all of BTVS but I had made my peace with it. Great, great point. My wife is going to flip when I tell her this.

[> [> [> [> Re: LMPTM and the Fanged Four - Huh? -- Rina, 15:38:41 06/18/03 Wed

Are you telling me that you have problems with LMPTM, because Darla and Angel were not featured in this episode?

[> [> [> [> Re: LMPTM and the Fanged Four -- Rook, 20:38:10 06/18/03 Wed

>>FFL establishes the idea that William became Spike to
>>exact revenge on a world that ridiculed him and to get
>>attention from the women who would otherwise think him
>>beneath them.

I never saw this. I saw a guy get rejected and go sit and cry about it an alley. Dru didn't come up and offer revenge. She offered escape, and that's what he took.

>>It wasn't anger and rage that created
>>Spike, but rather despair.

THIS is what I saw when I first saw FFL. It's exactly the idea of Spike's creation that came across to me. Spike wasn't about getting revenge when he let Dru vamp him. He was about committing suicide.

[> [> [> [> [> Drusilla did not turn William into Spike -- Valheru, 22:55:20 06/18/03 Wed

I completely agree with you here. It was William's depression and despair that drove him to accept Dru's offer. But the creature we know as Spike was not created that night, just as the creature we know as Angelus was not created the night Darla sired him. When William rose as a vampire, that's pretty much all he was--William as a vampire. "Spike" is a created persona that came later.

FFL implies that, at some point, Vampire William decided to turn all of the misery that he had endured as Human William into anger against those who caused it. The high-society boy becomes the anti-high-society vampire. It's almost as if he decided to wage war against everything that had caused him pain as a human. The device with which he fought that war was the Spike persona.

LMPTM, however, implies that the most important factor in Vampire William's creation of the Spike persona was Vampire Anne. After being rejected by Cecily, ridiculed by his peers, seduced by Drusilla, and imbued with a vampiric demon, we see that Vampire William...is still pretty much William. After all the things that happened in FFL that we were led to believe drove William to becoming Spike, he wasn't Spike after all. He doesn't make the transformation until after Vampire Anne tells him she never loved him. Which means that the Spike persona was created from his pain as a vampire, not as a human.

It's not that I don't like what LMPTM tried to do. After all, parental rejection is a completely valid psychological trauma, one that we know applies especially well to vampire motivations (see Angelus), and could be used via FFL's establishment of William as a momma's-boy. But I don't think it fit the character very well, nor do I think it was necessary beyond trying to create a parallel with Robin/Nikki and Buffy/Giles. It was like ME was trying to wedge a square peg into a round hole: you can get it to go in, but it will put stress on the opening and there will be large gaps at the corners.

Or another example: mitichlorians, the stuff in The Phantom Menace that indicated Force-ability. There really wasn't anything wrong or incorrect about that idea, but it unnecessarily science'd the spiritual theme of the Force. Likewise, there wasn't anything inherently wrong with LMPTM; it was just unnecessarily convoluting Spike/William's character. It's like Normal Again: I can watch it and enjoy the hell out of it, but there's some very intriguing stuff in there that I don't want to accept as canon. LMPTM just has a lot more of it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Rejection and William Spike -- Rook, 05:58:13 06/19/03 Thu

The thing is, Rejection is the catalyst for every single important moment Spike has ever had on the show, so I'm not clear on how it can be said to not fit the character.

Becoming II - His fear that he's being rejected in favor of Angelus leds to the alliance with Buffy.

Lover's Walk - Dru's rejection turns him from swaggering cool guy into whiny crybaby guy.

FFL - Cecily/Society's rejection leads him to get vamped.

SR - Buffy's rejection leads to the AR which leads to his ensouling.

LMPTM - Rejection by his mother leads to his killing her, which sets him on the path to adopting the Spike persona.

Spike is, and has always been, about not handling rejection well. So to me it makes perfect sense (Even more sense that what were shown in FFL) that the major catalyst for his change from William into Spike (other than the whole demon thing) had to be an incredibly traumatic rejection. And given his Mama's boy status, there's really nothing else that would have fit.

The Harvest -- Q, 17:59:31 06/17/03 Tue

The Harvest:
Grade: B+

Continuing where the premiere left off, this episode has the same strengths and weaknesses as Welcome to the Hellmouth. Bad extra acting, especially the "stoner" in the computer lab scene with Cordy and Harmony was especially painful, as was the low budget effects (bad "dusting" scenes) and score music. Again, some cheese made it's way over from the movie with the "heads up" line in the bronze, the way Luke was taken care of, etc.

I also had a few problems reconciling this episode with the future of the show. In a way, it is almost like the writers forget all about the pilot when devising future continuity plots. One example is the vampire Luke. It is obvious in this episode that he is the main minion. Sure the Master is the leader, but Luke is obviously number 2. Not Darla or anyone else. Luke. It refers to his bad-ass history, and Barcelona in the 1800's. Yet, later in the ME universe, we see MANY flashbacks, chock full of Darla, Drusilla, Spike, Angel, the Master, etc. etc.... and NO Luke. If he was that bad for that long, shouldn't he have shown up in later flashbacks? But it's like he never even existed again. One line... "Barcelona, 18??, he caught me sleeping", really intrigues me. Wouldn't it be cool to see a flashback to this and find out who the "he" was? Holtz? Angel? Spike? Could be somebody fun.

I also have a problem with the death of Jesse. He is set up as Xanders life long best friend. Yet, we NEVER hear of him again after this episode. It should have a profound effect on Xander, and should be brought up whenever the seriousness of the Hellmouth is brought up, but later in the series we get more references to Jenny Calender to bring out the seriousness of the situation. Jesse is never mentioned again, which seems VERY bizarre to me! Seeing how easily Anya's expiration was accepted, though, I guess it makes sense!

I do love the lighting in this episode. Very dark, yet very colorful, and it sets a perfect mood.

The mythology of the hellmouth and Sunnydaly is laid out in a compelling way, and we are drawn ever deeper into our first major arc-The escape of the Master.

The chemistry between Angel and Buffy is just BURNING and puts EVERY other love interest (Riley, Spike and the little ones) to SERIOUS SHAME!

I loved the "She did it, I'll be damned comment". So a propos... He will be damned.

One of the strongest aspects of the first few seasons was the music. I'm not talking about the score as much (It improved much with C. Beck), but the rock song back grounds. Shivers are what I got when the vampires marched up to the Bronze to Dashboard Prophets "Ballad for Dead Friends". Perfect!!!

[> Re: The Harvest -- Sophist, 19:10:38 06/17/03 Tue

I also have a problem with the death of Jesse. He is set up as Xanders life long best friend. Yet, we NEVER hear of him again after this episode. It should have a profound effect on Xander ... Jesse is never mentioned again, which seems VERY bizarre to me! Seeing how easily Anya's expiration was accepted, though, I guess it makes sense!

I think it very much did have a profound effect on Xander. I think we see this effect in his reaction to Angel and Spike.

Your comparison of Jesse's death to Anya's seems spot on to me. It does make the series consistent on that score.

[> Re: The Harvest -- Silky, 06:10:05 06/18/03 Wed

What I found interesting was what Jesse said when he revealed he'd been vamped (paraphrased) Don't be sorry - I feel strong - like I'm connected to everything...

Almost exactly the same as what Holden said to Buffy in CwDP and similar to what Spike told Buffy in FFL. Very consistent and more of what Joss meant when he said back to the beginning (so he wasn't just talking about Sunnydale High...hmmm)

As Glory said, "Fun, fun, fun."

The background music was strictly cheesey, horror movie stuff. It got so much better later on in the series.

[> [> I think Xander acted consistently -- Ray, 02:50:53 06/19/03 Thu

When Jesse died, Xander did the same thing he did when Joyce died. He punched something, then collected himself. I always thought of Xander as a deeply private person. He keeps his feelings to himself. I think because he's insecure about feeling "weak." He mentions Jenny because he wasn't close to her, so it doesn't hurt him to remember her.

Or maybe Jesse is like Scott on 90210. He was the co-nerd with David until David got cool. Then Scott died and was rarely mentioned again.

[> Continuity and Crosses -- mamcu, 13:56:10 06/18/03 Wed

I agree about the continuity issues with Luke and Jesse. Also, there's a really big deal at the beginning about the cross on Buffy's neck driving Luke away--but it doesn't seem to have such an effect later on. I remember that it burns Angel, but I don't recall seeing any vamps run from it.

[> Re: The Harvest -- Malandanza, 08:59:14 06/19/03 Thu

"The chemistry between Angel and Buffy is just BURNING and puts EVERY other love interest (Riley, Spike and the little ones) to SERIOUS SHAME!"

I didn't see much chemistry between Angel and Buffy during the first two episodes, but I recently rewatched When She Was Bad and in the scene (in the weird dreams chapter) where Buffy first drives Angel away, then turns to say "I missed you too," but is too late, there is more genuine emotion and passion than a dozen of Spike's best "I am Heathcliff" scenes. So while I agree that B/A does eventually put the other relationships to shame, I don't agree that it was a great romance by The Harvest. I'd certainly place Riley's "but she doesn't love me" remark (and the Xander reaction shot as Riley immediately begins to behave as if nothing is wrong with the relationship) above any B/A chit chat in these first two episodes.

A few quick thoughts on Help (general spoilers Buffy S7) -- Alison, 19:39:55 06/17/03 Tue

Apologies if this has been said before...I may regret this dashed off post in the morning.

I remember that when "Help" first aired, quite a few people didn't like it and felt that it simply repeated the "you can't save 'em all" theme. But it occured to me today that in the greater context of the season, it gives a lot of insight into Buffy's emotional state. Her desperation to save one girl from fate, paired with her guilt at the school mates she could not save in Lessons, explains her emotional with drawl from the potentials later in the season. Obviously, as with Cassie, she fears that they will be victims to fate a she once was. Hence, her irrational actions and detatched approach. Ofcourse, what she forgot was that she defied fate both in Prophesy Girl and in the Gift by returning from death, and that is exactly how she saved the potentials- by defying the accepted system and empowering them all.

[> In retrospect, you're right, that does put a couple of things in more sensical perspective -- AngelVSAngelus, 21:35:38 06/17/03 Tue

Before I had looked at the episode as a separate entity advocating fatalism, and I thought that had contradicted what Buffy's previous defiance of such predetermism had communicated.
Just another case of viewing the season as a whole before judgement, I suppose. Though I can't say that saves Him for me, heh.

[> [> My problem with 'Help' -- Liam, 02:35:28 06/18/03 Wed

What I disliked about 'Help' was the fact that Buffy acted in a grossly unprofessional manner in dealing with Cassie's case. While I'm not a counsellor myself, I've worked with many; and I found it quite incredulous that Buffy would accuse Cassie's father, on his own doorstep, in the absence of any evidence, with wanting to kill her, and that the father wouldn't sue the school in response.

[> [> [> Schools in Sunnydale -- Rook, 04:30:01 06/18/03 Wed

Operate in some kind of twilight zone where normal rules don't really apply. Whether it's Snyder "Expelling Buffy" (A power he doesn't have, expulsion is an executive power reserved for a school board, requiring all kinds of due process to protect the rights of the student), Willow's Substitute teaching stint (Which was illegal on an epic scale), not to mention the more mundane, plot related things like no one ever going to class or visitors being allowed to walk around the school at will.

Anyhow, this is one of the more believable school related goofs (Much more believable than Buffy keeping her job after the events of "Him"...like RJ wouldn't have spread news of his and Buffy's classroom activities all over the place.) - Cassie's father is pretty wrapped up in his own problems, and to actually make the effort involved to sue or create problems for Buffy would probably cause all of his own problems to be dragged out into the light, something he pretty obviously wants to avoid. As long as they don't continue to press the issue, he's probably more than willing to "live and let live".

[> [> [> [> I found the R.J. thing believable -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:43:42 06/18/03 Wed

Earlier in the episode, we saw Principal Wood take Dawn's word over that football player's as to what happened with the stair pushing. Odds are he'd also take Buffy's word over R.J.'s (which does make sense, since it appears R.J. was in frequent trouble with Wood). Even if R.J. told everyone, Wood would probably discount it, and, also, without his jacket, he loses his seeming coolness and becomes much less believable.

And, even if you discount that, we do know that Wood gave Buffy the counselling position so that he'd have a Slayer on campus. Even if he did believe Buffy tried to seduce R.J., he might very well be willing to overlook it.

im loving S7(no spoilers just sharing) -- Andrea, 20:34:26 06/17/03 Tue

i just watched Showtime & Souless for the first time of course and loved every second of each epand as a big Spuffy fan Loved the last escene, im just so exited because even though im spoiled for practically the entire season it still blows me away, and Angelus that was something i've been wanting to see for a long time so im pretty happy right now, and even if i hate him , connor almost got me caring about him when he teared .

Buffy es la chimba , ojala este show nunca se acabara!!!!

[> btw has anyone read "the Vampyre" by Jonh w Polidori?????' -- Andrea, 20:38:37 06/17/03 Tue

[> [> I just ordered it last week - I'm looking forward to reading it! -- WickedBuffy, 20:48:16 06/17/03 Tue

You guys really, really ought to read this. -- HonorH (the mad reccer), 23:15:23 06/17/03 Tue

My good friend Selena (as in Miss) recently wrote an amazing piece of fanfic. I can't even describe this one to you except to say it's about Darla and Connor and something that very well could have been. Please do yourself a favor and read:

The Haunting, Hunted Kind

[> Wow! fabulous fanfic.Thanks,HonorH! -- jane, 03:52:47 06/18/03 Wed

[> Very terrific. Beautiful. Pleasure to read -- Mackenzie, 11:05:01 06/18/03 Wed

thanks for sharing

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