June 2003 posts
in Checkpoint? (spoilers BtVS S4&S5) -- Vegeta, 10:53:07
Last night up here in Minneapolis, the Season 5 episode "Checkpoint"
was on. Being a stand out episode IMHO, I watched it. During the
scene when Spike is being interviewed by the Watcher's Council,
I noticed that the actor who was holding the crossbow had a striking
resemblence to the actor who played the Cheeseman in "Restless".
After another shot of him, I am fairly sure it is... Basically
I was wondering if anyone noticed this too, or would like to prove
me right or wrong.
one more bttb
thread on wtth (1 small spoiler toward end for late season 4 "angel")
-- anom, 12:30:46 06/16/03 Mon
Before we go on to The Harvest & beyond (which I don't have on
tape, so I won't have much to contribute on it despite transcripts),
I'd like to add a few more comments on Welcome to the Hellmouth.
I actually took a few notes when we watched it at ATPo: The Gathering
(>sniff< I still miss all you guys!).
I didn't remember the part about the history class where the teacher
said the Black Death "originated in Europe...as an early
form of germ warfare." 1st, this is true; according to Merriam-Webster's
Collegiate Encyclopedia, "the epidemic originated in Asia
& was transmitted to Europeans in 1347 when a Turkic army besieging
a Genoese trading post in the Crimea catapulted plague-infested
corpses into the town [yuccchhh!]." 2nd, this raises the
question of why this is in the show. In the 1st episode. Early
in the 1st episode. Like it's setting the tone for the whole show?
Do vampires act like an infection, spreading through a population
killing many & making others infectious? If the infection is consciously
spreading itself, is it conducting "germ warfare"? Or
is the metaphor specifically for the Harvest, in which a localized
infection would have become an epidemic? This scene (in the classroom)
takes place just before Buffy goes to the library, where Giles
assumes she'll be champing at the bit to fight the plague of vampires
(& he looks so eager as he puts Vampyr on the desk!).
Interesting that in a show so full of metaphor, the things Buffy
was afraid of were ordinary new-school stuff:
"Giles: I was afraid of this.
Buffy: Well, *I* wasn't! It's my first day! I was afraid that
I was gonna be behind in all my classes, that I wouldn't make
any friends, that I would have last month's hair. I didn't think
there'd be vampires on campus. And I don't care."
This implies that the metaphors in the show are going to be about
the non-ordinary stuff. Things you don't expect when you go to
school. Things you want to be able to not care about. Unconscious
fears, the kind we deny. That's why they're dealt w/as metaphors,
& why we didn't see metaphors for being behind in classes or having
the wrong hair (except in Nightmares?).
I'm trying to find some connection between Luke's repeated "The
sleeper will wake" & H. G. Wells' 1899 novel "When the
Sleeper Wakes," in which a man has slept for over 200 years
& through the magic of compound interest (way oversimplified,
but...) pretty much owns the world. And since he can't make his
wishes known about what he wants done w/his property, there's
an administrative council that makes decisions in his name. He's
become something of a legend, & "when the Sleeper wakes..."
is a kind of pie-in-the-sky byword. Then he does wake.
It's been a long time since I read it, & I don't remember enough
to draw any coherent parallels--just unconnected ones, like asleep
for hundreds of years as the Master has been trapped for hundreds
of years; admin council/Watchers Council?; worshipped while comatose
like Cordelia toward the end of Angel season 4...none of
it hangs together. And there's nothing in the book about the world
bleeding, as far as I remember. If anyone can pull this together--or
say that it just doesn't fit--please do.
Loved Buffy's handstand ambush of Angel! Whoa! One of the moments
that made me think I was gonna like this show.
Buffy's advice to Willow to "Seize the moment, because tomorrow
you might be dead" is all too true in Sunnydale, but in Willow's
case almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Figuratively.
Um, well, the "prophecy" part, anyway.
[> Re: Welcome to the Hellmouth
- Addenda - Running gags, motifs, and themes -- Brian, 15:22:08
1.The first daylight shoot of Sunnydale High School has a school
2.Buffy: "It's not that I have fluffy bunny feelings towards
3.Giles: "There is so much you don't about them (vampires),
about your own powers."
4.Cordelia's comment about shoes.
5.Xander's comment that Sunnydale is a one Star Buck town.
6.Identifying vamps by their out-of-date clothes.
7.A school library that no one uses.
8.In the library Giles always unexpectedly pops up to surprise
and usually embarrass one or more of the Scoobies.
9.Buffy contrasts her clothes: "Hi, I'm an enormous slut
- Would you like a copy of The Watchtower.
[> I think... -- KdS,
15:56:18 06/16/03 Mon
... that it wan't an H G Wells reference, but was, if to anything
consciously, to Cthulhu and the other Malign Sleepers in Lovecraft.
This was in
my in my head this morning as I commuted to work. -- fresne,
13:08:01 06/16/03 Mon
Since, I'd really rather have other things in my head, I wrote
it down and am posting it, so that it can be in your heads instead.
He stands in front of the burnt out shell of something that was
intended to last forever. Fine dust everywhere. Burnt stones laid
with care scattered by a careless hand. Metal reinforcements melted
into horrifying modern art.
He hadn't thought there was anything left that could horrify him.
Every fall the world works to prove him wrong.
He sensed rather than heard Quentin Travers standing next to him.
Heart took a jump because Quentin, who he'd known and cordially
disliked for over twenty years, was dead. Had to be dead. Had
been in the building when it blew. What little was left had been
identified. Was dead.
He takes off his glasses and polishes them, he finds himself saying,
"Quentin? They...uh...said that you were dead." Trite,
"They were right. I am." Quentin walks forward and touches
a blackened brick. "At least it was fast. With the Council
gone, now all that's left to protect this sorry world is one black
sheep and a girl."
"Quentin, I know that you've never approved of Buffy, but
she has saved this world time and again and this occasion will
be no different."
A weakened cross beam snaps in the background. Falls. Brings another
load bearing wall with it in a cascade of dust and stone and history.
Quentin smiles, "Really." he says and with a flash,
he is gone.
He walks back behind the police line and gets ready to find the
girls who are left. The slender potential upon which the world
rests. It is all that he can do.
There are rose petals strewn across the floor of his hotel room.
He has had this dream before. The sound of ice melting away in
a dewy champagne bucket. The plaintive wail of lost love over
the speakers. And Jenny. Sleeping. Eyes only closed for a second
on his bed.
Except this is not a dream. Is not real, is not real, is not real.
Jenny opens her eyes. "Of course it isn't real Rupert. I'm
dead." She stretches, arms straight out, a spine cracking
crucifixion that emphasizes her chest. She gets off the bed, "I'm
restless. Dead and restless." She moves almost close enough
to touch. He should feel her breath on his cheek. She isn't breathing.
"How could I rest while my killer is still walking around."
Moves out of his range of vision and is gone. He can hear his
mother telling him to ignore the bullies and they will go away.
Jenny goes away.
Angelus, kohl and eyeliner and leather pants coming into view
on his other side. "Buffy never could kill me." Angelus
picks up a handful of rose petals and tosses them into the air,
"No matter who I torture, she loves me. She loves me some
more." Angelus sits down on the bed and bats eyeliner rimmed
eyes. "After all, I have a soul now. Makes me safe as a kitten."
Melts into that boy, Ben, bleeding and wide eyed, "And as
we know, people with souls can't even scratch."
Melts into a flash of light and it is all gone. Except for a faint
scent of dusky dead roses.
He gets ready for bed, so he can lie awake and remember. It is
all that he can do.
It is hot. Well, the windows have all been boarded up. The room
is full of Potentials radiating heat and smell and sleepy sighs.
Safe. Safe behind summery walls.
In May, everything falls apart. In the summer, they put things
back together again. It is winter and hot and the room is strewn
with dry dead rose petals.
Not so safe.
"They're all mulch. Rotting and full of decay." Snyder
is standing next to him. Smirking at the room. "I'm going
watching them die. Moments like that should be savored."
He ignores Snyder. Walks between the sleeping girls to the door.
It is cold outside. The bite in the air is welcome. Walks past
Quentin standing on the porch, "You cannot save them. You
failed as a Watcher. Failed to teach that Summers girl enough
to keep her from getting killed. You will fail to save any of
The taxi drives up in the early morning light. He gets into it.
It is all that he can do.
Sunnydale to SFO (LAX is unwise these dark days) to Narita to
Delhi. Thirty-nine hours of traveling by sitting still. Trapped
strapped into his seat. At least as the last Watcher sitting,
he has plenty of money. First class whisky that should put him
to sleep. That makes him wired and drunk instead. If only he could
There is a rose petal suspended in his drink. He tries to fish
it out, but his fingers just pass through. Knows it is a mistake,
ignore it, it wants a response, says, "You really should
very your routine."
"Oh, I don't know Rupert." Jenny's face is rotting,
barely recognizable except for her dark, deep eyes. "This
one is working so well." She smiles softly with shriveled
lips, "I know you did your best to avenge me. Of course,
you failed. Like you always fail. Like you failed to keep Buffy
Morphs into Kendra, whole and clean except for the stream of blood
running from her neck, "Ya couldn't even keep me alive. But
ya hardly knew me. Like ya hardly know these girls. So, it won't
be that bad."
Morphs into Buffy, "Not like when I died."
Tries not to say anything, but whiskey will talk, "You are
not her," he says.
"Funny, I look like me. Then again, I've died twice."
He watches the years melt away, add baby fat and round happy youth
that care has planed away, "You didn't save me the first
"But you were saved."
"Yeah, saved to die again. Saved to have my lover kill Ms.
Calendar. Snap her neck. Saved to end up clawing out of my own
grave. I was sixteen and I didn't want to die and you didn't save
Morphs into a girl that he only knows from pictures, knows that
his motionless travel is pointless. "Like I was sixteen,
but you know that from your Watcher files. Know what I liked and
what I dreamed. This is not a dream and I am just getting started."
This girl, this Potential, this dead child reaches into his drink.
Plucks out the petal. It shrivels in her hand. She blows the dust
away. Compresses into a flash of light and is gone.
He stares at the empty seat, unseeing. Unblinking. Tired. Old.
"Sir. Sir." He glances up. It is the stewardess, "You'll
need to put your tray up, we're getting ready to land." He
hands her his drink and dutiful puts up his tray. Latch plastic
click. Must keep everything stowed and secure. Land, go through
customs, knowing that the seconds are ticking away. Never get
them back. Determine when the first flight to his next destination
leaves. It is all that he can do.
[> This was really well
done, Fresne. Thanks. I miss Giles. -- Rochefort, 01:07:12
[> [> I missed Giles
all Season 7. :< -- WickedShortchanged, 17:50:35 06/17/03
and fresne.... thanks for doing what ME didn't - resuscitating
[> Wonderful! -- ponygirl,
08:06:15 06/17/03 Tue
I just wish that even one of those scenes had been on screen.
I had always imagined Giles as being traumatized by the events
of the season, now at least I will have lovely illustrations for
my imaginings. Rose petals make a great symbol for Giles - all
the lost love, lost passion, fading dreams, the romantic in middle
age. Thanks fresne!
[> I propose we analyze,
debate, applaud and dissect fresnes posts until Angel returns.
-- WIckedBuffy, 19:12:07 06/17/03 Tue
anyone second the motion?
[> [> I'm in on the applauding!
-- Sara, feeling inadequate for analyze, debate and dissect, 20:17:56
[> [> Okay, because I
feel everyone should have a tiara. And I have the power of non-sequitur.
-- fresne, fresne, and fresne, 10:11:30 06/18/03 Wed
Actually, I may be too busy rushing through all the other posts.
Do you ever get up in the morning, see all these wonderful posts
and it's like Thanksgiving or something? You gobble through them
really fast, because your cousin/Voynak might steal that post
when you're not looking. Chomp. Chomp. Chomp. And then your head
hurts with all the chocolaty philosophical goodness. Plus you
feel like you're on a caffeine high. So, do you?
Sure. Since, I'm inclined to agree with lulabelle, in her very
pleasing delurk, that it is important to balance self love with
external obligations. Quite clearly I'm mastered the first in
a S1 Cordelia sort of way.
Also, this could lead to a very intriguing trend in which we all
analyze our own posts. It would be like this string of moebius
loops. Self referential and extreme. And possibly done in charcoal.
It's crystalline clear that the rose stuck in the whiskey glass
is symbolic of a fly from a prehistoric age. The rest of its kind
long gone to some cruel frost, while it remains frozen dead in
Yes, yes, and of course, Giles is at that moment time traveling
into the future (when he crossed the international date line)
and time is out of joint. Indicating that his problems could be
resolved if he rejoined his community (went back over the date
line) because he would end up leaving before he left.
Please revise previous post to say arriving before he left. Thank
Ha, foolish reasoning. Only if he goes from east to west. If he
returns via England, the whole metaphor falls apart like a stack
of ill stacked cards bushed by the cold breeze of reason.
Damn...foiled by myself.
Giles is traveling on a train going West at 90 miles an hour to
reach his destination 300 miles away. Caleb is traveling in his
truck going East at 80 miles an hour, but is 260 miles away. Will
the Potential be saved?
Whatever. I'm math deficient. I am a math rebel. I am math chaos.
Humanity/Science imbalance unending. Bwhahahaha!.?
Why are you looking at me like that? I'm not crazy? And you, be
quiet, I'm posting to the nice external people. What? No, you
can't have cookie. I don't want to stretch my leather pants of
evil. Hmm...where was I?
Leather trousers. Okay, so on one hand, I don't want to be limited
by authorial interviews etc. On the other hand, in the DVD commentary
Joss says that ASH does not wear pants. I think that this is an
extremely valuable lens through which to view BtVS. Anytime, we
cannot see that ASH is wearing pants, he is not. I shall immediately
reread my storylet with that analytical viewfinder in mind.
So, between ASH and JM, we were darn close to the all nekkid season
finale that Joss promised us several years ago. Well, that and
we needed a zeppelin.
Wait, I stopped talking about myself. Umm...pay no attention to
the all gay, all nekkid, all singing review on their zeppelin,
piloted by Xander, in their attack on Jupiter to fight Shaka Kahn.
KAAAHHHHNNN! Wait that was all about Trek wasn't it. Hmmm...
When really, it's all about me!
[> general BtVS S7 Spoilers
-- fresne, 13:09:16 06/16/03 Mon
[> Love this, Fresne. The
problem is that none of these traumatic events showed up on screen.
-- cjl, 13:41:02 06/16/03 Mon
Maybe if we'd seen The First/QT visiting Giles in the rubble of
the Council, as the dead Potential on that plane to Delhi, or
mocking him in the guise of Jenny, we would have understood why
he seemed so utterly bonkers in the second half of S7.
Unfortunately...the mystery of Pod!Giles continues.
[> [> but maybe we can
pinpoint when he snapped out of it (& yeah fresne!) -- anom,
21:02:29 06/16/03 Mon
Beautiful, fresne! Exactly the words & images the First could've
used to poddify Giles. Too bad we didn't see anything like it
on the show.
As for the equally puzzling mystery of why the Giles we knew & loved
was suddenly back in Chosen, I think a clue can be found in Willow's
computer search for info on the Scythe. Giles identifies what
she thinks is a question mark as a "?" without the "."--a
symbol for the glottal stop. He describes this as "a gulpy
sound." (The closed caption said "gulping," but
I listened again; he said "gulpy.") Gulp-y? Does
this sound like Giles? No, it sounds like Buffy or Willow or Xander.
Giles has gotten back in touch w/his inner Scooby! And that's
what frees him from podness.
What I really want to know is why Willow didn't click on the button
w/the gulpy symbol. I mean, it was right there. Presumably it
led to some info that could've been helpful. But instead they
send Buffy to find a crypt that's been there so long nobody noticed
[> [> Thanks all. Its
absence, made its presence written -- fresne, 23:53:48
It was on instant replay in my head. Which when you're trying
to write an introduction to Processes for a Technical Architecture,
can be a bit distracting. Like the First. Only, you know, with
more technical manuals and fewer rose petals. And you know, dead
[> [> Yes. PodGiles -
the greatest weakness of the season. Sigh. -- dream, for whom
fanwanking PodGiles is like a second job, 14:03:50 06/16/03
[> [> [> Re: Yes.
PodGiles - the greatest weakness of the season. Sigh. -- Rina,
13:29:29 06/17/03 Tue
How can PodGiles be the greatest weakness of the season, when
there was no Pod Giles? He was merely a figment of the fans' imagination
who thought they could explain his negative actions with the theory
that he was under the FE's control.
No one seems willing to face what was really bothering Giles,
in Season 7. Spike really said it in "Touched", although
I believe he was a bit off. It wasn't so much that Giles could
not deal with Buffy surpassing him as a leader in the fight against
evil. He simply had difficulty dealing with Buffy as an adult.
Yes, he stated in Season 6 that she needed to grown up and take
responsibility. But once she did, he had difficulty handling it.
Coupled this with his "any means necessary" pragmatism,
along with the destruction of the Watcher's Council, it's not
really surprising that he was acting wonky this past season.
Must it all be spelled out for you? If so, you should consider
[> [> [> [> Hey,
watch the attitude! -- dream, 13:56:59 06/17/03 Tue
Okay, you think the development of Giles character was valid.
That's fine. It's not like we have never seen Giles exhibit a
"win at any costs" attitude before. And it's legitimate
to argue that he wanted to retain control of Buffy, even if that
was a change from last season. After all, people's attitudes do
change. But we didn't see that. We saw all the worst aspects of
a major character's personality exhibited with none of the positive
aspects. We also saw a very deliberate mislead that Giles might
be the First, with no follow-up once it was shown he wasn't. So
I think I have a very legimimate complaint about his characterization
this year; many others agree. There's room for disagreement, fine.
I certainly thought the attempted rape was in character for Spike,
many people I respect felt differently. But I never implied that
their feelings indicated that they were less intelligent, less
"worthy" of the show. So what's with the "Charmed"
comment? Do you need to insult those who disagree with you? Do
you understand how rude and off-putting that is? Do you talk to
people like that in real life, or do you save up your agressive,
anti-social tendencies for the web?
Oh, and I didn't mind Giles' ACTIONS this year. I could see the
old Giles, in the right circumstances, choosing to side against
Buffy on the question of Spike. I just didn't buy that he would
do so so quickly. I also didn't buy that he would spend the whole
season barely connecting with anyone, acting like a shadow of
his former self - and that if he did, this wouldd't be worthy
of some investigative screen time. He was one of the core characters,
[> [> [> [> That
was rude. -- Sophist, 13:59:51 06/17/03 Tue
Hey, I agree that your explanation is part of what we saw
with Giles this year. But I also agree that ME could have done
more to convey his mental state.
The sarcasm in your post doesn't add anything. dream expressed
a common criticism of S7, a valid one IMHO. Insulting her just
cuts off dialogue and reflects poorly on you.
[> [> [> [> hey!
HEY! Who's dissin' on CHARMED? we don't do that to BUFFY.
-- Prue, Piper, Phoebe and that red-haired chick, 17:12:37
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: hey! HEY! Who's dissin' on CHARMED? we don't do that to
BUFFY. -- Rina, 10:00:43 06/18/03 Wed
One, the red-haired chick's character is named Paige.
Two, I've been watching CHARMED longer than BUFFY and I know what
I'm talking about.
Three, the CHARMED forum, "TheProphecy.net" has a topic,
which declares that CHARMED is better than BUFFY (I try not to
laugh at that one).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> You watch Charmed? And I don't. Ironic, isn't it?
-- dream, wondering why you needed to assert Charmed authority,
12:29:52 06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> ::koff:: The naive Forum posters say that - the real
Charmed ones do not. -- The "P"s, 17:12:43 06/18/03
[> [> [> [> [>
CHARMED couldn't be worse than ANGEL's been for the last 2
seasons, could it? -- Q, 13:00:41 06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Uh, I'm going to assume you're being facetious... Right?
Sometimes my sarcasm meeter gets wonky. -- Scroll :o), 21:18:11
[> [> [> [> Heck,
I read Harlequin romance novels. My Lit High Ground is sub-sea
level -- fresne, 17:52:56 06/17/03 Tue
And, I do watch Charmed, which is a darn funny show although the
girls do wear some truly horror inducing clothes. Plus, as a Bay
Area resident, I laugh and laugh and laugh at some of the Bay
Area not-ness. Although, I haven't been catching it as much since
Cole isn't there to wear those gorgeous suits and be evil, die,
live again, be in love, be evil, die, live again, be in love,
be evil, die, let the poor man die already. Thank you. It was
actually really funny to watch Cole be wacked and kinda nutso
and then watch Spike be a whole nuther jar of prime quality nutso.
Plus, I've decided Adrian Paul, who made a cameo, has made a Dick
Clark deal with the devil. And since it isn't my soul in jeopardy,
I approve. Evil appearance focused fresne looks just like good
philosophical fresne, she just wears cyber leather pants of evil.
And talks about herself in third person.
Okay, I've lost track now. Where was I? Oh, yeah, podGiles.
Well, fairly clearly I had a problem or you know, Technical Architecture.
Vitally important. Nothing to do with podGiles. Should have been
focused on writing brilliantly boring prose about it.
Instead my back brain whirred at a certain mushiness of line in
the latter 3rd of the season.
I wanted to see Giles' reasoning, with screen time and lines and
possibly my poor little heart ripped out and stepped on in a sympathy
pain sort of way. That the man who feared the death of one Slayer,
who sang of wanting to help her lay her arms down, must now face
draining that drink to its bitterest dregs, well, I get all teary
Also, I wanted more usage of the First as a creature that thrives
on dissension. Chaos as destruction that tears apart and keeps
people apart. Something that implicitly understands our dark buttons,
without any true grasp of concepts like faith, hope, love. Okay,
so I loved CwDP and the Mayor and I'm greedy. Greedy. Narcissistic.
And wearing leather trousers of pure evil, with a little polyester
blend lining so I don't turn into a duck. Because you know, these
trousers are made of pure Evil.
Where was I?
Oh, yeah, Chosen, which I loved, adored, cherished and wanted
set in a pure platinum setting with diamonds. An actively relations
destructive First Evil makes Buffy's response of empowering, of
joining, of creating a lasting community, all the more delightful
in my head.
Although, quite frankly, are you listening ME, my Giles issues
can be easily satisfied with a nice thirteen+ episode BBC series
focusing on Giles and all his issues. I mean, Joss has the time
Giggle inducing Charmed only takes up an hour of my week. I want
my Watcher and/or Ripper series. Although for now I'll settle
for Monk. Summer has its perks.
[> [> [> [> [>
hey- if evil leather means posts this good (not to mention
what it does for Angel) I'm all for it! -- Alison, 17:59:07
[> [> [> [> [>
A little note on what ASH said about it -- s'kat, 21:53:07
As a reward for yet another poetic post and btw fres - I loved
your fic for Giles, totally see that. Why didn't they do it? Huh?
Anyways - just finished reading a transcript of ASh's Q&A at the
moonlight rising con and apparently he was told to
not touch anything or lean against anyone or anything for three
episodes - the writers wanted to play the red herring for all
it's worth. (They also wanted to torture poor Tony, b/c I'll let
you all in on a little secret, Head loves to play with props.
He's called prop man. It's his acting style - to find a prop to
play with in any given scene, b/c he believes when people interact,
they fidget. So the writers and Joss had fun old time forcing
him to act without doing this.) Anyways, ASH says he played the
scenes with the view of emotional distance. That he was so traumatized
by what happened and the fear of losing these poor girls that
he had emotionally distanced himself. Tried not to let himself
get emotionally attached to anyone or touch anyone as a sort of
So I think for what it's worth - he played Giles more or less
the way fresne wrote it.
The links to the transcripts can be found on the spoiler trollops
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: A little note on what ASH said about it -- Yellow
Bear, 18:49:44 06/18/03 Wed
I kinda always saw Giles that way to be honest. The whole First
red herring was wrong headed IMHO but after I got over the whole
is-Giles-dead-or-not aspect I saw much of Giles actions this season
as being brought on by his desire not to lose these girls, not
to allow himself the emotions he has for the SG.
I think what tipped me off to this was the conversation in BOTN
where Buffy asks him to visit once without an apocalypse, and
Giles response is so dismissive of her that it forced me to realise
that he doesn't want to come back to Sunnydale, to live this life
I don't think the show really deals with these emotions so it
became a thing where the audience just wondered why Giles was
acting so strange. The most interesting thing about this is that
Giles emotions in regards to the potentials are very similar to
Buffy's which could have been an interesting angle to explore
but it never came to be.
[> [> I have other suspicions
-- KdS, 16:03:11 06/16/03 Mon
When Rah, yab and I were discussing this season recently, we came
to the suspicion, given the portrayal of the Shadowmen and Guardians,
that Joss really does believe that on some essential level women
are good and men evil (I hear from reliable sources that he personally
wrote Lilah's infamous "primordial misogyny" lines in
Billy). I have a nasty feeling that Giles was so ineffectual,
and malevolent when active, this season because Joss felt it was
necessary to hammer home the feminist empowerment thing. You can't
even trust an apparently reconstructed patriarch! He'll still
turn evil at the slightest provocation!
[> [> [> The line
from "Billy" moreso fits in with "Angel's"
general worldview -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:22:32 06/16/03 Mon
"Angel" has a very Hobbsian view of humanity, that,
in the beginning, we were all savage, brutish creatures, and that
concepts such as morality and nobility have evolved over time.
"Primordial misogyny" is a natural extension of this
view of humanity's origins. I don't think you should consider
it applicable to "Buffy", which is more of a humanistic
[> [> [> Re: I have
other suspicions -- ponygirl, 09:24:14 06/17/03 Tue
You know I think you may have something there. Coming off my s4
commentary fest this weekend I was struck by Joss and Marti's
views on men and women. It seemed to me from his comments on Hush
and Restless that Joss sees traditionally feminine symbols and
attributes as very positive, with the masculine more of the negative.
Marti on the Wild At Heart commentary discusses the idea of the
beast within men - she said that there is an animal within women
as well, but that for men it could sometimes be an uncontrollable
force. In both cases it seemed that they viewed the gap between
men and women's natures as far wider than I had supposed.
One of the basic mandates of the show is feminist empowerment.
After centuries of patriarchal dominance - which is still prevalent
in virtually all of the world - it's not a message I have a problem
with. The problem is if Joss sees women as somehow nobler he runs
the risk of imitating Victorian ideas - that women's "purer"
sensibilities should be revered and protected, in short put on
a pedestal away from the dirty business of real power. There's
also the possibility of men being diminished so that women could
look better. Xander may have found strength in a more nurturing
role, but I can think of any number of examples where the more
traditionally male figures- Angel, Spike, Riley- were physically
weakened, put in a damsel in distress role.
I do believe that Giles' portrayal in s7 was on some level meant
to represent a negative male authority figure, to the detriment
of his characterization. But do I think that the belief in a primordial
misogyny pervades the show? I don't know. Some of it, especially
the Shadowmen, is a reaction to history - historical misogyny
rather than innate perhaps? In any case I think that there is
a danger in denyng both men and women access to the full range
of humanity - the good and the bad.
[> [> [> [> well
said, ponygirl! -- anom, 11:57:52 06/17/03 Tue
"In both cases it seemed that they viewed the gap between
men and women's natures as far wider than I had supposed."
It certainly sounds that way, & if it's true, it bothers me. Of
course, I'm just seeing your brief impressions of Joss & Marti's
views; I hope they were more nuanced than that in the full commentaries.
Interesting that Marti says that about Wild at Heart--it seems
more appropriate to Beauty & the Beasts. If anything, Veruca seems
more like a counterexample. Is Marti saying Veruca's inner animal
is controlled? 'Cause it sure doesn't look that way. She's given
in completely to it. In fact, the more I think about it in the
context of that comment the less sense it makes.
As for whether there's any need to ennoble women or diminish men,
well, at least in terms of who's in distress, Buffy is
one of the most equal-opportunity shows I've seen when it comes
to who needs rescuing & who does the rescuing. That's one of the
things I like most about it. Most people both need help & are
in a position to give it in different circumstances in their lives,
(if not usually as dramatically as is portrayed on the show!).
I think the "primordial misogyny" comment is a character's
viewpoint rather than the writers'. I don't see it treated as
fact on the show as a whole. And I wholly agree w/your last statement:
"In any case I think that there is a danger in denyng both
men and women access to the full range of humanity - the good
and the bad"--whether any part of that range is characterized
as "masculine" or "feminine."
[> [> [> [> [>
Thanks anom, but I am modifying my post a bit -- ponygirl,
12:20:02 06/17/03 Tue
I feel a bit guilty in implying that Joss is over-idealizing women
or demeaning men. I don't think he actually is, but rather that
there is the danger that he could. As you say, I was mentioning
impressions I got from the commentaries, since I listened to three
within a brief space of time certain things leapt out at me, in
a broader context it probably is more balanced. Actually the most
definite impression I got is that Joss loves Willow. I mean really
Marti's comment about the beast within did include women as well,
and she was speaking of the show's werewolf metaphor as a whole.
I found it quite interesting, and she was doing the commentary
with both Joss and Seth Green, so if they objected to her assertion
that the beast in men is a stronger force they had an opportunity
As for whether there's any need to ennoble women or diminish
men, well, at least in terms of who's in distress
And I think a lot of this distress element has to do with the
conventions of a show with one central hero. Buffy has to be the
strongest, she has to have someone to save. One of the things
that I appreciated about the show and Chosen was that it turned
this convention on its head, ultimately giving everyone a chance
to be the hero.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I agree with this -- Sophist, 12:52:14 06/17/03
One more point about MN: she is regularly criticized for her idealized
portrayal of Riley. I don't know how true that is, but I can say
that Riley's character in S4 seems pretty inconsistent with her
[> [> [> I think this
theory needs a little more work -- Sophist, 16:22:04 06/16/03
Joss has said from the beginning that Xander is the character
who "is" him. What message are we to deduce from Xander
this year? That he was untrustworthy?
Can your theory be reconciled with Spike this season? With Andrew?
[> [> [> [> Quick
reply -- KdS, 16:34:20 06/16/03 Mon
Xander has never been a patriarchal figure on the show. All his
best moments tend to come when he plays a gender switched "heroine"
role - standing up to evil with pluck and little back-up, nurturing
people. Likewise Andrew has never been even faintly patriarchal,
and has been quite feminised this season.
Giles has been a father-figure most of the way through, albeit
a reconstructed one.
And I'd probably better leave someone else to discuss Spike...
[> Fragile, sad beauty-
thank you -- Tchaikovsky, 13:42:53 06/16/03 Mon
[> Re: This was in my in
my head this morning as I commuted to work. -- CW, 15:22:59
Wish I had half your ability to think in images.
Thanks for sharing!
[> Haunting and beautiful,
and the best type of fan fic... -- Rob, 15:43:19 06/16/03
...since it fits perfectly into the show's continuity, without
any alterations needed, and, in fact, improves on what transpired
on "Fear, Itself" (some S7 spoilers) -- Valheru,
15:00:33 06/16/03 Mon
Rob had a post last week about how Fear, Itself foreshadows
the splintering of the Scooby Gang later in Season 4. While watching
the DVD, I noticed that the characters' fears go even beyond the
group dynamic, oftentimes alluding to future events in the individual
Willow - At the start of the episode, Willow talks about
her advances in magic. "I've got the basics down - levitation,
charms, glamours. I just feel like I've plateaued wicca-wise."
She wants to go to the next level--to transcend the limits of
her current bounds--even though she has doubts. Buffy mistakenly
supports those doubts, telling Willow not to do it if the radical
departure is too scary. Then Oz arrives to further suppress Willow's
experimentation, equating it to the loss of control in his wolf-form.
The episode takes Willow's fear at its literal level, but what
about the metaphorical level? While not as overt at this point
as it will become later, Willow's magic represents her sexuality.
Translating for the above scene, what are the character's saying?
[Warning: the following does not express the opinions of this
poster or it's affiliates. It's an interpretation of the subtext,
not an approval of it.]
Willow is getting tired of Oz. She still loves him, but she feels
that they have peaked sexually. She wants to find someone who
can do more for her. At this point, it's unclear whether Willow
thinks that all men are sexually inferior, but she does
mention that the next level includes "transmutation, conjuring,
bringing forth something from nothing," which can be interpreted
for lesbianism--transmutation is the obvious one (change from
hetero- to homo-sexual), but "bringing forth something from
nothing" can also be said in a more suggestive way: "making
something come from a hole" (God, I hope no kids are reading
But Willow is scared, as is understandable. Deciding, with finality,
to become gay is (I expect) a horrifying proposition at first.
So she decides to run it by her friends, hoping for some support.
Unfortunately, Buffy misunderstands and tells her not to do it.
That's Bummer #1. Bummer #2 arrives with Oz, who--as the rejected
lover--predictably downplays the entire notion. But what must
be even more frightening to Willow is when Oz compares it to his
wolf-state. From this perspective, isn't Oz just giving Willow
the Buffyverse version of the "gays are all evil abominations"
speech (although, if you stay on the metaphorical train-of-thought,
this also means that Oz is admitting that he himself is gay).
Also of interest is what he says to Chaz later: "Cowering
in a closet is starting to seem like a reasonable plan."
Later, in the haunted house, Willow (dressed as the lesbianesque
Joan of Arc) gets even further rejected. Buffy pooh-poohs Willow's
magic ability, basically saying that Willow really isn't
a witch, that she's just playing around. Willow and Oz leave in
Willow then makes a very odd mistake. She starts to adamantly
proclaim her magic proficiency...to Oz. Imagine that your
hetero-sexual significant other started ranting about how gay
they are. So of course, Oz does what anyone would think to do
in such a situation: he turns his own sexuality up as high as
it will go. By wolfing-out, Oz displays to Willow the extent to
which his "skills" can reach, almost as if saying, "If
you go gay, look at all you'll be missing! Think of all the things
we can do when I have a tail!" However, Oz shows himself
to perhaps be too potent, too out-of-control, and Willow
runs away to do magic anyway.
The metaphor ends with Willow's guiding spell, which goes horribly
wrong. Why? She's too unfocused. After all, if she's still with
Oz, she's not committed to being a lesbian (which causes problems
in Something Blue also); it is only when Willow commits
herself to Tara that she starts being successful with her spells.
Apply this to Wild at Heart. Does Oz still sense Willow's
desire for lesbianism? Are his romps with Veruca a subconscious
manifestation of his fears about Willow? Is he still trying to
keep her from becoming gay by flaunting his primal sexuality?
Is he trying to make her jealous of Veruca? In effect, might it
not be Willow who destroyed the relationship, rather than Oz?
Again, I don't necessarily think all this is true, but it is there
in the subtext.
Though it is interesting that Buffy (and Xander and Giles, by
extension) reacts more strongly to the text than the subtext.
When Willow finally does come out of the closet, there is only
a mild hesitancy to approve from the Scoobies, compared to the
stronger disapproval they displayed with the magic metaphor.
Xander - Xander's situation is the opposite of Willow's:
his fears are normal, but there's a supernatural subtext. He fears
that, being a "civilian," his college friends are outgrowing
him. But actually, they outgrew him back in Season 2.
Look at the scene where Xander becomes invisible. Everyone is
leaving to their supernatural states: Willow is going off to be
a witch, Oz to be a werewolf, and Buffy to be the Slayer. Xander
stays behind to be...Xander (or "cool-headed waiter guy"
without wielding some sort of power). Once again, Xander
is the useless part of the group--the Zeppo. And like The Zeppo,
Xander spends the rest of the episode wandering around unnoticed
by his super-heroic world-saving pals.
When does Xander become visible again? When everyone else stops
being super-powered. When Buffy leaves those she must Slay, when
Oz reverts back from his were-state, and when Willow's spell dissipates,
only then is Xander acknowledged. He is important to the people
that his friends are, not to the super-people.
But fast-forward to Potential and we see that Xander has
turned his "invisibility" into an asset. Because he
is ignored in the mystical world, he has an invaluable perspective
on things the rest of the Scoobies can't see. The uber-witch,
werewolf, Slayer, ex-demon, vampire, Watcher, and Key get all
the attention; meanwhile, the invisible Zeppo can sneak in undetected.
It is because Xander is forgotten that he can surprise Dark Willow
and save the world...by being important to Willow the person,
not Willow the witch (who everyone else was concerned with). And
when Xander does become visible to the mystical world, that's
when Caleb attacks him.
And a side note: when Buffy becomes invisible in Gone,
Xander asks, "have you been feeling ... ignored lately?"
Buffy makes the connection to Marcie Ross from Out of Mind,
Out of Sight, but Xander is probably referring to his own
experience in Fear, Itself. Another example of Xander being
Anya - Xander leaves Anya behind, stuck in her own worst
fear. Exactly what he does in Hell's Bells, except rather
than bunny-fear, it's her fear of being a scorned woman.
Buffy - Buffy's fears lead her to the darkness of the basement,
with the dead frat-boy. He tells her, "They all ran away
from you. They always will. Open your heart to someone and-- But
don't fret, little girl, you're not alone...anymore."
From Dead Things:
SPIKE: You see... you try to be with them... but you always
end up in the dark...with me. What would they think of you...
if they found out... all the things you've done? If they knew...
who you really were?
SPIKE: Look at them. That's not your world. You belong in the
shadows... with me.
Spuffy must have scared the crap out of her.
[> Finally, a REAL response!
;o) -- Rob, 17:58:37 06/17/03 Tue
Quite amazing just how many levels this episode actually does
turn out to have. I always liked "Fear, Itself," thought
it was fun and actually one of the more genuinely creepy episodes
of "Buffy," but never really noticed all of its layer
until reviewing it with the season 4 DVDs particularly since the
final season is over, and there was so much in those last episodes
that reflected back on this one.
I think I'm going to work my way backwards through your review,
Buffy - Buffy's fears lead her to the darkness of the basement,
with the dead frat-boy. He tells her, "They all ran away
from you. They always will. Open your heart to someone and-- But
don't fret, little girl, you're not alone...anymore."
And again with the basement metaphors! Buffy's friends turning
their backs on her certainly did happen in "Empty Spaces,"
but it was basically a result of Buffy shutting them out long
before that. Through Spike's words in "Touched" and
in "End of Days," Buffy begins to learn that the way
to defeat this fear is that if she doesn't shut people out to
start off with, they won't shut her out in response. To be giving
and loving, not superior and aloof. To give of herself and spread
her strength to her friends. To let them take an active part in
helping her, also.
Anya - Xander leaves Anya behind, stuck in her own worst fear.
Exactly what he does in Hell's Bells, except rather than bunny-fear,
it's her fear of being a scorned woman."
I love this! And yup, Anya ends up defeating her own worst fear,
too. What are her last spoken words? Pretending the oncoming villains
are "bunnies...floppy, hoppy bunnies." She fights from
that point forward with an amazing determination, gusto, and spirit.
By the end, even though she is killed, she truly has conquered
her fear of bunnies. Symbolically, I would say the bunnies represent
her fear of her own humanity. Bunnies are soft and calm and sweet,
and perhaps she feared them because they represent the ultimate
opposite of what it means to be a Vengeance Demon. If she could
do such a human thing as finding bunnies cute, then she would
be admitting that she is mortal and will one day die. By the end,
though, she doesn't let this fear hurt her anymore. She uses it
to her advantage. The old Anya wouldn't have imagined the army
of Turok-Han as bunnies...she would have been too frightened to
lift a sword! But the Anya who finally admitted that she liked
the human race in "End of Days," and finally came to
a true understanding of what it is to be human, no longer fears
the bunnies. She sees them as not an oppressive force, but as
an enemy, on the save level as herself, so she fights and kills
these "bunnies," because she has nothing more to fear.
And in the act of fighting her worst fear, yes, she does die,
but she does not die afraid and more importantly dies protecting
someone weaker than herself. So even this fear in "Fear,
Itself" is addressed in the final eps!
Not much more to add on your Xander analysis. I thought it was
really brilliant. Watching "Gone," I'd totally forgotten
about Xander's invisibility in this episode. And you make another
great point when you say that the fact that Buffy related this
response to Marcie and not Xander is yet another case of
him being overlooked. Great stuff!
Your Willow one, I found very interesting and challenging. I'm
not sure if I agree with the subtexty reading of the scene, or
at least I'm not sure I agree that there was any intent on the
writers' part for it to be interpreted this way, but you do argue
it well, even though you yourself said you don't know if you endorse
this interpretation! The major problem with the interpretation
that at this point, it is about Willow realizing she's gay at
some subconscious level and that Oz's crush on Veruca is also
a subconscious rebellion against Willow is how jealous Willow
instantly is of the attention Oz gives Veruca, from the first
moment she sees her. Although when Willow starts doing magic with
Tara, it is many times used as a metaphor for lesbianism, I'm
not sure if it's intended as a metaphor for lesbianism yet
until she clasps hands with Tara. Same way it was used as a metaphor
for an abuse of power and later, drug abuse, and then later again
still, abuse of power again, in season 6. I don't think that when
Willow says in this episode that she can do magic that she means
on any level that she is a lesbian or doing lesbian activities.
I can, however, buy that this is foreshadowing later events.
Oz freaking out and turning into a wolf, for example, is certainly
a precursor to his morphing in front of Tara, in broad daylight,
in Wild at Heart. The magic in this episode, loss of control,
Will being bored sexually, Willow dressing as Joan of Arc foreshadows
the events later in the season, and through the whole run of the
show, but I don't think that these feelings were yet there. Your
interpretation of this line, though--"Cowering in a closet
is starting to seem like a reasonable plan."--is interesting.
Again, I don't think Oz is implying that he's gay. But I like
the link you drew there.
P.S. By wolfing-out, Oz displays to Willow the extent to which
his "skills" can reach, almost as if saying, "If
you go gay, look at all you'll be missing! Think of all the things
we can do when I have a tail!"
That gave me a good laugh! :o)
[> [> Hmm, could this
be the first appearance of the House Metaphor? -- ponygirl,
13:33:41 06/18/03 Wed
My brain's a bit frazzled today (meetings! meetings! meetings!)
so I'm having trouble recalling earlier episodes, but Fear Itself
did have all of the elements of the beloved house metaphor: Buffy
falling into the basement to face her subconscious fears; having
to go the top floor to comprehend the sitaution - the top story
representing the higher brain functions. I'm conveniently ignoring
Xander, Willow and Oz who faced their fears through various parts
of the house 'cause the house metaphor's always been Buffy's thing.
Darn that David Fury! Now I'm really wishing there was dvd commentary
on this episode!
[> Preserving the thread
so I can respond later. Great stuff, Valheru! -- Rob, 15:38:10
[> [> Another preservy
post...I don't want this to be archived before I can respond!
-- Rob, 23:44:40 06/16/03 Mon
[> [> [> ...and still
another postervation - don't want this archived before Rob can
respond. -- WickedBuffy, 17:17:59 06/17/03 Tue
considered super naturally enhanced human's or demon hybrids?
-- reaper, 19:50:29 06/16/03 Mon
Then a group of men created a warrior to fight the demons. They
took a girl and chained her to the Earth. They beat their staffs
against the ground. They set the Spirit of the Demon upon her.
Its black energy writhed through the air like a snake. It became
one with the girl. Like Vampires are infused with the demon spirit
becoming demon hybrids, the slayer could be considered a body-soul
[> Not sure -- Finn
Mac Cool, 20:14:27 06/16/03 Mon
I haven't seen any indication that being the Slayer (or potential
slayer) directly effects someone's personality. Yes, the situation
they're in affects it, but I haven't seen any sign that the actual
presence of the demon essence makes any changes. And, while Slayers
have supernatural strength, they don't seem to be biologically
demonic, since Spike's chipped still went off when he hit Buffy
in Season 5. On the other hand, they have gained enhanced strength
from it, so it's hard to say.
Perhaps the demon essence didn't actually stay in the First Slayer.
Maybe it went in, altered her in some way so that she'd be stronger
than almost all vampires, and then left.
[> [> I get the feeling
that we're missing some key pieces of the puzzle -- BMF, 20:35:38
[> [> A possibility
-- Valheru, 22:21:03 06/16/03 Mon
I think the key word here is "essence." Slayers are
infused with the essence of a demon; vampires are infused with
the actual demon itself. The First Slayer was given all the powers
of the demon, but she didn't become the demon. Spike and Angel
are almost the reverse angle. They are vampires infused with the
essence of a human, however, they aren't humans themselves.
[> [> It still has me
confused... -- WIckedBuffy, 22:26:11 06/16/03 Mon
That's something I was never clear on in Buffyverse.
If the demon is mixed in with the human still, then it would be
a hybrid. But not necessarily a demon-hybrid. Just a hybrid. Unless
you mentioned both parts that went into it.
If the demon just left an impression on the human, then it would
be a human with some demonic traits, but still human.
ME's attitude always seemed to be that Slayers were human.
I was wondering where Adam fit in?
And then again - what does "demon" mean? That one is
difficult for me to pin down. Non-human evil thing? What about
the non-human "demons" like Clem, then. Is "evil"
the defining word or is there something else? Is Lorne a demon
or is he an alien or what? He comes from his own world, like we
come from ours - they have a culture, rules, etc. Why is he considered
a demon and now just an alien, then? Is any being not human a
demon, then? I don't think the Mantis People wre ever referred
to as demons. (might be wrong on that one.) Jasmine was a PTB,
was she a demon? Are gods ever demons? Was Glory. Are there specific
[> Don't forget the Guardians
-- Dochawk, 07:51:11 06/17/03 Tue
Not only was the first slayer embued with the essence of a demon,
but the Guardians also seemed to give her something - its why
the scythe had such power.
Although what the shadowmen meant when they told Buffy she was
the last guardian of the hellmouth, but then Caleb goes and kills
the last Guardian. Confusing.
[> [> Why not? --
Sofdog, 09:55:35 06/17/03 Tue
Was this actually stated? The Guardian's comments were pretty
vague. She says that they watched the Watchers but not that they
interfered with the WC's efforts. She only says that they wanted
to help and protect the Slayer, but she never says how or by what
means this help manifested. Other than creating that scythe, she
doesn't clearly say they did anything other than observe from
The whole Guardian appearance felt like a big fat crock. Told
us nothing of import, her appearance implied that she'd been in
Sunnydale all along and never once come out to aid the Slayer,
and then she quickly died. Way frustrating.
[> [> [> I really
liked the Guardian idea -- lulabelle, 15:17:00 06/17/03
*raises hand mekely* I kind of liked the Guardian.
I don't think she was the best character ever, but I think she
got the message Joss wanted to convey accross. The Guardian embodies
the power of the feminine in constrast to the patriarchy of the
The watchers force girls to become something against their will,
taking away the girl's choice and power. That's why its so important
that the Guardians never came and screamed, "hey I'm here.
Let me tell you what to do." They waited and watched from
afar, as though they cared about the slayers and wanted to know
if they were ok. But they won't intervene. They leave the power
for the slayers to take. Give them a choice. There's a feeling
that if something dire is happening, as it was with the FE, then
maybe somehow, they will make themselves known.
But they will never force the slayers to do anything. They will
simply give her a tool with which to fight. And its so fitting
that the wepon they give Buffy does so much more than kill. That's
not its real power. Its power is to connect. The Watchers want
to isolate the slayers, but the Guardians tool is a link to the
slayer heritage, as well as to other slayers in the present, a
tradition I tend to associate with matriarichal societies and
The Guardian asks Buffy her name. The watchers try to take away
the slayers names and human identities, the Guardian accepts it,
even when she finds Buffy to be an odd name. The Guardian says
the scythe was made for "one like you." Notice, she
doesn't say "for a slayer." There's a feeling that the
Guardian almost knows Buffy and knows that she is the one to liberate
the slayer line because of the kind of person she is, not because
of the demon power some men have imbued her with.
[> [> [> [> Me
too, just not the execution -- Sofdog, 16:44:36 06/17/03
When the Guardian appeared I was sitting forward. It sounded like
this was gonna be so cool. I thought there was a purpose to her
presence: to broaden the mythology by explaining about the weapon.
She was just a device for the writers to legitimize its late entrance.
When Caleb killed the Guardian I wanted to punch out the screen.
Look at all the questions her meager message raised, questions
that were cruelly left unanswered by her sudden death.
I understand what she represents in the form of an answer to the
mythology's patriarchy. But it was inadequately represented. They
made a weapon, and watched at a distance. If the Guardian had
said "we aided the Slayer by...." oh, say protecting
her with charms, showing up in the nick of time, fighting shoulder
to shoulder once in a while... that would have been something.
But she really doesn't say much. They forged a weapon that got
used once, to kill the last "pure demon." And the darn
thing has been sitting in a rock ever since? What the hell good
is that? It would have been handy for the other Slayers to have
had it along the way.
For that matter, her statement is confusing. If the Slayer was
created in answer to the vampire threat (oft and clearly stated
in the show and comics) then who exactly wielded it against the
last pure demon? A Guardian? And why has she been waiting around
for the end of days? Buffy figured everything out without any
help from her.
The Guardian didn't add anything. She was full of promise, but
failed to deliver.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Me too, just not the execution -- lulabelle, 16:53:58
They forged a weapon that got used once, to kill the last "pure
demon." And the darn thing has been sitting in a rock ever
since? What the hell good is that? It would have been handy for
the other Slayers to have had it along the way.
I don't think that scythe was about killing and I'm not sure any
other slayer would know what to do with it. It was about embracing
humanity and feminity and one's lineage as an extension of self.
And I think that maybe why its important that the Guardian says,
"one like you" not for "a slayer." Is it possible
that the scythe was made specifically for Buffy in a cosmic kind
of way. That she is the person with the power to understand herself
well enough to empower others through the scythe. Killing the
last pure demon is about the triumph of humanity and I think that's
what the scythe is needed for. Its too precious just to be used
to kill vampires.
On a side note, I'd be curious who could pull the scythe from
the rock...just Buffy specifically? Any active slayer? Potential?
[> [> [> [> [>
I think she's like the Lady of the Lake -- Sophist, 17:23:46
After all, we do have a King Arthur motif going on here. We never
do know the motivations, only that now was the right time.
Just like there was a right time to re-forge the sword that was
broken (LOTR) or for Whistler to tell Buffy how to use the sword.
Or, as Giles says in WttH, "There's a reason why you're here,
and a reason why it's now." We will never know the history
of the Guardians, but we can guess how new ones might arise: "Yeah
Buffy, what will we do?"
[> [> [> I agree Sofdog.
The Guardian chagrinified me. -- WickedBuffy ::babbling on::,
16:58:56 06/17/03 Tue
Ss much as I liked the idea of Guardians, when I really thought
about it, other than making the scythe and hiding it from everyone
(even Buffy) - what do we know they ever did? Watch? How did they
guard? Or were they guarding the scythe? By embedding it in rock?
The Guardian idea left many more questions than answers.
disappointment disappointment I wept ashes were strewn clothes
were rent to own :/
To me, a Guardian does something active - it seems "The Observers"
would have been a more accurate name.
We have The Watchers - who did much more than just "watch".
And The Guardians - who pretty much only watched. Seems like the
titles are mixed-up.
"The Guardian embodies the power of the feminine in constrast
to the patriarchy of the shadowmen/watchers."
I got that message, too, lulabelle. But it didn't sit so well
with me. That Guardian gave little information, saying all they
did was watch things without ever taking action after making the
scythe.... and then her neck was immediately snapped by Caleb,
the symbol of patriarchy. We really have to work to fill in the
gaping holes The Guardian, or rather Joss, created with this character.
She wasn't a powerful feminine portrayal to me. Buffy and the
previous Slayers, Dawn, Willow, Andrew, Xander, Anya, Spike, even
Darla and Dru, embody the power of the feminine to me. Showing
a wane stand-on-the-sidelines woman with only moderate information-giving
skills wasn't a strong representation of anything to me. I couldn't
even consider her wise or supportive, nuturing or helpful from
what we saw.
I didn't understand why such a half-baked character was thrown
into the last show other than as a quick "oOO this will balance
out the Watchers" device or a set-up for Angel and Buffy
to meet with Spike spying on the osculating. (Or maybe just to
get some use out of that old "Land of the Lost" set
no one knew what to do with.)
I was real disappointed in what could have been a much more powerful
character, even in a very short period of time.
(I would even have been satisfied if she'd claimed being the
one who always kept the Scoobies hair clean and shiny or secretly
fed all the SITs or kidnapped Buffys dad or did the yardwork or
stopped the neighbors from ever calling the police or any other
of those incogruencies we've listed in other posts that never
quite made sense.)
[> [> [> [> I'm
sorry - possible spoilers for last Buffy episode above...
-- WickedBuffy ayiii, 17:04:18 06/17/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> About
embedding it in the rock . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:46:18
Caleb seemed to want it. Either he wanted to destroy it or to
use it himself. By embedding it in rock (which it was implied
was protected mystically against non-Slayer excavation), they
stopped the likes of Caleb from getting ahold of it.
[> [> [> [> [>
Did it have to be hidden for millennia? -- Sofdog, 21:30:12
Couldn't the Guardians have held onto it, delivering it to needy
Slayers from time to time? They could it put in a concrete block
two years ago and still kept it from The First. And they clearly
didn't know what was coming. The Guardian is clearly confused
when she says "an end is truly near." She doesn't even
know how it can be used effectively, only that it's a possibility.
Much as with Graduation Day and all their other exploits Buffy
had to think outside the box.
What can I say? Old lady go splat.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Did it have to be hidden for millennia? -- Ion
Phlegming, 17:08:47 06/18/03 Wed
"an end is truly near."
*she meant her own neck-twisting death
*she was referring to Angels fine hiney
*it was Joshs "in" joke about the series finale
*it was actually "a friend is truly near", meaning Spike
voyeuring around the next pillar
The Guardian was a daffy old loon who'd won a walk-on appearance
in the show by sending thousands of Buffy Trading Card wrappers
to the Seniors for Slayers Magazine.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> ROFLMAO -- curious, 18:18:04 06/18/03 Wed
The Guardian was a daffy old loon who'd won a walk-on appearance
in the show by sending thousands of Buffy Trading Card wrappers
to the Seniors for Slayers Magazine.
made me laugh. Maybe we take this stuff too seriously. ;-)
Journey 1.1 (WttH) -- manwitch, 21:03:38 06/16/03 Mon
I apologize for being behind.
I watched Welcome to the Hellmouth a couple of nights ago.
What is interesting to me looking back is that Buffy seems
to have sprung from Joss's head like Athena from Zeus, fully formed
and ready for battle. Certainly some of the characters aren't
quite what they would become. But in the first episode they serve
much more specific functions.
I agree with those who think Cordelia steals every scene she's
in. I still think Buffy is a fantastic actress from the get go.
The little look she gives Willow when she says, "I'll be
back in a minute," is brilliant. And all the performances
I think are very strong. But Cordelia gives the show its first
real life. Someone you don't like and is yet so appealing and
very funny. I feel like the first relationships you really get
involved with are Cordelia/Buffy, Cordelia/Jesse and Cordelia/Willow.
The scene at the water fountain is really the first scene with
emotional impact, the first mo ment when you realize you are starting
to care about these characters.
Giles is very eager, which I like. He is trying to be in control,
the one that will train and teach Buffy, but the moment he finds
out the "vampire is not dead" he shifts instantly into
"What do we do? Shall I come with you?" From the very
beginning its clear his knowledge is from books, while Buffy's
is from experience. She's really the one teaching him.
But I think what is most striking is that Buffy is already
hitting on all cylinders thematically. It addresses spiritual
needs and issues instantly.
When we first see Buffy she is sleeping and having restless dreams.
A couple of things about the dream. Others have already detailed
what we see in it. But its interesting to me that the first thing
we see Buffy doing is dreaming, wrestling with her subconscious.
It suggests that those images she sees, which will be the images
of Season One, are really bubbling up from her subconscious, they
are her issues, her desires, her fears. Now the dream shows a
couple of interesting things. One is particularly interesting
because it does not explicitly appear in Season One, nor so far
as we know, any reference to it. And that is Shiva's Dance of
Life. Certainly one aspect of Shiva's dance of life is the relationship
between the mortal and the eternal, the life that lives in the
world of forms, and eternal force that animates and is beyond
all forms. These are symbolized by the drum in one of Shiva's
right hands, which is the beating of time in the world of space,
time and forms as we experience it, and by the flame in one of
Shiva's left hands, a flame that spreads into the circle of fire
that frames the whole statue, which is the flame of eternal life
that outlives mortality. We all have an eternal flame animating
us that will outlive the mortality of our bodies. You might call
it consciousness, perhaps a soul. But this statue immediately
suggests to us that we are not the sum total of our lives. There
is more to it. Perhaps this will be true of our sleeping heroine
Also, Shiva is the hindu deity that is the ultimate goal of the
practice of Kundalini Yoga. The feminine creative serpent power
inherent in all, known as Sakti, seeks its union with Shiva, by
progressively activating a series of spiritual centers known as
chakras, until at the last one, the seventh, Sakti dissolves into
Shiva in pure love. But the first task in Kundalini, is to awaken
that feminine power, Sakti, and start it on its journey of spiritual
And here is Buffy, like Sakti, sleeping and dreaming of Shiva,
in the very first moments of the series.
Interestingly enough, the first trip into the subterranean church
that will become the home of the Master, begins with Luke repeating
a particular line. "The Sleeper shall wake. The Sleeper shall
wake. The Sleeper shall wake." Clearly a reference to the
Master, but also pretty clearly a metaphorical reference to Buffy,
our sleeping heroine. Buffy must awaken spiritually. I believe
I have also read that "Buddha" is from a Sanskrit word
that means "to awake" or "the awakened one."
Buffy must wake up to her spiritual life.
The Christian imagery is pretty heavy in this episode, what with
the angel figures in the cemetery and the numerous crosses. It
can be pretty well explained away simply by the Vampire genre
itself. Everyone knows that Vamps are afraid of crosses and can
beburned by them. There's the whole history of vampire mythology
where vampire equals anti-christian.
But its hard to believe the naming of the chief Vampire minion
as Luke is accidental. Luke is, of course, one of the gospels,
and I believe is unique among the gospels for its detailed description
of the early years of Christ, particularly the passage where a
twelve year old Jesus books on his parents and is found at the
temple conversing with priests and doctors. When asked what the
hell he thought he was doing running away like that, Jesus tells
his parents, "Don't you know? I must be about my father's
I believe that appears only in Luke. And in that passage Jesus
is acknowledging his father as God, and his business as pursuing
his spiritual life, rather than the worldy intepretation of his
father as Joseph and his father's business as carpentry. Now if
we see the Master as Luke's father figure, which is reasonable,
than certainly Luke is attempting to go about his father's business.
But when we consider the parallel that seems to be suggested between
Buffy and the Master, and when we think of the Master as part
of Buffy's bubbling subconscious, than perhaps Luke is really
a reminder to Buffy that she must tend to her spiritual life.
Just a thought.
Anyways, I just love the way the show uses frightful images and
situations and yet at least hints at speaking to something totally
other than fright.
I am intrigued by Cordelia. It is simply too much to believe that
the crowd writing this show picked the name Cordelia solely because
it's a nice name. They know damn well who Cordelia is. So how
does that connect back to Buffy? Cordelia shows in this first
episode that she and Buffy are the same, with the same desires
and same values, the only difference being that Buffy actually
thinks about others, actually seems to have at least the potential
of some kind of spiritual commitment. But why the specific reference
to Lear? Obviously she is blunt and will not flatter. But I keep
coming back to the line from Act III Scene III:
"Poor naked wretches, wheresoe'er you are,
That ride the pelting of this pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these? O! I have ta'en
Too little care of this."
Which to me is what Lear is ultimately about. There is, of course,
no physical defense against the pitiless storm of life, but our
spiritual commitments and social connections can give us something.
Perhaps Buffy, like Lear, is being asked to recognize her spiritual
obligations. I really don't know. But I suspect there is a very
deliberate allusion to King Lear here.
Perhaps I am raising the think too much quotient a little too
But the point remains, that Buffy seems to be ready to attack
the deepest and most mysterious of topics from the outset, with
both a deep sense of reverence and and a wicked sense of humor.
I think its pretty clear right from the beginning that there is
something going on here.
The Top Ten Percent (so far)
1. Welcome to the Hellmouth
[> Excellent -- Sophist,
08:18:32 06/17/03 Tue
I especially appreciated the discussion of Shiva. I noticed that
in the dream and was sure the image never reappeared. I don't
know much about the Hindu religion, so your posts add a lot for
[> Self as Religion
-- lulabelle (aka chatlurker *delurking*), 09:00:10 06/17/03
Hi everyone! *waves* I discovered this board around mid-season
5 and found some of the most intellegent insight into my favorite
addiction I've ever seen. I finally got up the courage to visit
the chat about a month ago and there I met such an incredibly
welcoming and nice group that I decided, what the hey, why not
give it a shot and post.
Great post manwitch! I think you're right to see WttH as a wake
up call for Buffy. Hey journey is always paralleled by a development
of spiritual consciousness and WttH asks Buffy not to forget who
she is and to wake up and set out on that path of discovery.
What I think is really key is that everything exists within Buffy.
Spirituality on BtVS is not about finding a savior; it is always
about finding salvation in oneself.
Buffy dreams of the Master, the cross Angel will give her, the
Hindy Goddess. All these things become real in a way because they
exist in Buffy and she will wake up to them. The things that masquerade
as external are only recognizable when they are viewed from within.
The vampire as anti-Christ is interesting because Buffy is connected
to them. Its in this episode that Giles tells Buffy about honing
vamps. She can sense them as a part of her. I think the whole
imagery is really about religion being self contained.
Buffy refuses to give up on that normal life and what may seem
early on like narcisim is key to keeping Buffy whole and not letting
her lose herself in being the slayer. The centering on oneself
seems really important here. Enlightenment is found within and
Christianity, so patriarichal in nature, is not rejected, so much
as it needs to be taken within Buffy.
I think everything about the other characters being embodiments
of Buffy fits in here too. As does so much of the stuff about
Redemptiuon. Spike needing to deny Buffy's love in chosen because
it must be about him. Or Darla. In WttH she isn't at all the vamp
we see in other eps. Maybe b/c she's given herself up to the MAster.
Doesn't she ultimately find redemption through Connor who is literally
and figuratively within her when she dies.
I know all these ideas are really sketchy and not well developed
at the moment, but I'm home on lunch hour between my US History
final and myt Physics final which is in an hour and which I should
be cramming for. I just figured since I've finally gotten up the
nerve to post I should write something before I change my mind.
I'll be back later, hopefully to hash out these ideas a little
better throughout the BtVS mythology.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings. And thanks for all your
insight - I can't emphasize enough how much I've enjoyed reading
your insights for the past 2 1/2 years.
[> [> Welcome. Hope we'll
be enjoying your posts for a long time, too! -- Cactus Watcher,
09:09:14 06/17/03 Tue
[> [> Welcome. And good
post!! Great insights. -- s'kat, 11:26:08 06/17/03 Tue
[> [> Re: Self as Religion
-- manwitch, 16:13:56 06/17/03 Tue
Thanks for delurking.
I completely concur about the "within" stuff. That's
what I find so intriguing about the dream image. Its almost as
though there is a suggestion that the whole show is about Buffy's
dream, by which I mean her subconscious powers. Its an inward
journey she's going on.
I found your mention of narcissism interesting:
" Buffy refuses to give up on that normal life and what
may seem early on like narcisim is key to keeping Buffy whole
and not letting her lose herself in being the slayer. The centering
on oneself seems really important here. Enlightenment is found
within and Christianity, so patriarichal in nature, is not rejected,
so much as it needs to be taken within Buffy."
I will probably argue in the coming episodes that Buffy is, in
fact, being narcissistic. My view of it is more negative than
yours. But I like what you say about her needing some sort of
anchor to keep herself from being completely absorbed by being
the slayer. She needs to keep some aspect of herself. I think
that's very true and I will be looking for it. I think the show
suggests that her desire for normalcy in season one is not
a good thing. She has a spiritual obligation one might say. But
she does need to find a way of pursuing that spiritual obligation
that does not allow "Slayer" to negate "Buffy."
[> [> [> Re: Self
as Religion -- lulabelle, 16:41:42 06/17/03 Tue
I think the show suggests that her desire for normalcy in season
one is not a good thing.
I agree, and I think that most of this is Buffy's fear of who
and what she is. In S1, Buffy hasn't learned what to do with her
slayer side yet, but she does know that Buffy the person isn't
someone that she wants to lose. I think later on she wants to
lose the Buffy part, but embrace the slayer side, and this is
huge in s6 and represaents a really dark period for Buffy. So,
yeah, the desire for normalcy is something that Buffy will need
to lose, but at the same time it is something that represents
a love of herself and a confidence in who she is that really gives
her that special spark.
I think what's really important about Buffy needing an anchor
is that she needs the anchor to be herself. Spike tells
her in FFL that she needs her friends and family, and I think
he's right, mainly because they help Buffy love her life and because
they provide her with support, without which she cannot be comfortable
with herself. Buffy can't only rely on others and completely forsake
herself...she absolutely must become comfortable with herself
before she can truly find peace and spiritual completion. I think
this is what the idea of "redemption" is really about
in the Buffyverse....not so much forgiveness but self love.
[> [> [> [> Forgivenes
vs. Self love -- Q, 12:39:22 06/18/03 Wed
>>>I think this is what the idea of "redemption"
is really about in the Buffyverse....not so much forgiveness but
Wow. Excellent point. This makes so much sense when we look at
it in conjunction with all of the characters striving for redemption.
By the middle of Angel season 1, Angel has gained the respect
and forgiveness of those around him and anybody who would care
about him. But he doesn't feel redeemed, because he is nowhere
near loving himself yet.
It is painfully obvious how bad Faith hates herself, but toward
the end of season 7, she seems to gain more self-efficacy and
is starting down the path toward redemption, not because others
have finally sort of accepted her, but because she has finally
accepted herself. Of course this is still a work in progress,
so I hope she hurries back to Joss for another TV series!
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Forgivenes vs. Self love -- BMF (delurking again),
15:14:42 06/18/03 Wed
>>>I think this is what the idea of "redemption"
is really about in the Buffyverse....not so much forgiveness but
I would tend to say that foregiveness and self-love are essentially
the same. Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing speaking, but truly
loving oneself, not narcissistically or pridefully but joyfully,
can only come through foregiveness. One loses love, both of self
and others, through doing wrong, doing things that need to be
foregiven. Therefore, redemption, in the sense of overarching
foregiveness or personal cleansing, is ultimately manifested through
By the way, I share your hopes about Faith. She would be an awesome
character to study the redemption of. Of course, the reports I've
seen (via the SpoilerSlayer) have all called for a Willow-centered
series, and her redemption, as hinted at in "Chosen",
could also be fascinating.
[> [> glad you delurked!
-- anom, 20:39:48 06/17/03 Tue
"Spirituality on BtVS is not about finding a savior; it is
always about finding salvation in oneself....All these things
become real in a way because they exist in Buffy and she will
wake up to them. The things that masquerade as external are only
recognizable when they are viewed from within."
Very nice! And you've been holding out on us for 2-1/2 years?
This kind of reminds me of a book title I saw in a Jewish bookstore:
There Is No Messiah...and It's You. Um, not that I bought
the book, so I can't say anything about what's in it. But I do
like the idea of being your own savior/finding salvation within.
[> Does that section at
the bottom mean... -- Tchaikovsky, 09:19:38 06/17/03 Tue
We get a Spritual Journey post for every episode? I hope so. This
[> [> I concur, keep
it coming manwitch! -- O'Cailleagh, 10:38:13 06/17/03 Tue
[> This stuff is so being
added to my annotation pages! -- Rob, 11:29:09 06/17/03
a slight variation on my last post: Favorite Heroes and Villains
-- Finn Mac Cool, 21:48:06 06/16/03 Mon
Who are your favorite fictional heroes and villains? I'm not talking
just about television shows. They can be from novels, plays, short
stories, movies, poems, folk tales, comic books, anything. Who
is your favorite hero? Who's your favorite villain? Who keeps
you rapt in admiration? Who makes you shiver in fear? Who leaves
you intrigued with his complexity? Or, her complexity; you know
what I mean. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks.
[> Re: O/T: Giving a slight
variation on my last post: Favorite Heroes and Villains --
Alison, 09:17:00 06/17/03 Tue
Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara (in the book Gone with the Wind,
not that horrid excuse for a movie)...two more complex and enjoyable
anti-heroes you could never hope to find.
I could go on and on...but this is a start, and it'll keep the
[> Iago. Dazzling. --
Tchaikovsky, 11:19:19 06/17/03 Tue
[> My picks -- Finn
Mac Cool, 11:44:19 06/17/03 Tue
Simba from "The Lion King" (a young child who blames
himself for his father's death and retreats to arrested adolesence
and the Hakuna Matata philosophy in order to cope, but must finally
grow up in order to save his people)
Sherlock Holmes (there's just something about the way he acts
and speaks that makes him a joy to read about, but I can't quite
put my finger on it)
Hannibal Lecter (what is so absolutely terrifying about him isn't
what he physically does; it's what he can make people do; he has
that unique gift of getting inside people's heads and making them
to anything he wants; that's frightening)
The Wicked Witch of the West (she's so gloriously wicked and proud
of it that she couldn't possibly be off this list; plus, she struck
fear into the heart of me when I was six years old when she wrote
"Surrender Dorothy" in the air)
Randall Flagg from "The Stand" (the most evil character
to ever live; he is also a fascinating display of contrasts: human
and demon, child and adult, order and chaos; at one moment he
seems to be an unstoppable, fear inducing demon, and the next
he commits an act of passion that thoroughly screws up his own
[> [> ooh..I forgot Randall
Flagg. I *love* the Stand. -- Alison, 12:17:25 06/17/03
to LeeAnn, an answer of sorts -- O'Cailleagh, 22:00:54
Hey LeeAnn. James felt that the best way to support his movie
career, and thereby ensure he gets more roles, is to go see his
movies! (Unless of course you have some influence in Hollywood!)
I didn't mention the website to him as he had already stated that
he dislikes the internet. Apparently its a combination of the
amount of stuff flying around about him, and a distrust of technology!
(He doesn't like watches either!)
[> Once more, with feeling
please -- cougar (a curious cat), 23:53:24 06/16/03 Mon
I'd love to hear more details please, impressions of your experience.
I'm fascinated by the acting process and how it relates to
storytelling, introverted and extroverted energies within people,
the drives and needs that performing fills.
What did you notice in the difference between James as singer
vrs. James as Spike?
I once read an interview where he talked of keeping the character
in a separate "box" in his mind, and that actors can
get into trouble if
they forget how to shut that box. It got me thinking about which
"boxes" in ourselves we shut, which we open and how
that effects our
I also heard that he was "charisma personified". I have
met people who were actors that had that quality, this intense
channeling of energy that connects with people around them. It
really made me wonder about why some people have that flow, and
others it is nearly dammed up.
So I don't think it would be too "low-brow" to give
us the scoop! What stood out, surprised you. Did you drool? Did
you feel clumsy
or smooth in his presence?
[> [> Re: Once more,
with feeling please (contains WKCS S5 AtS) -- O'Cailleagh,
10:28:48 06/17/03 Tue
Well, if you insist, cougar, I'll tell you all about it!
James-as-singer/'rock star' was pretty much Spike, except happier/smilier
and without the accent, which was freaky! 'Charisma personified'
is exactly the phrase I would use, he is one of the nicest people
It made it much easier to talk to him, I'd been so nervous beforehand
but he made me feel completely at ease. It didn't stop me drooling
though! The thing that surprised me most of all was how short
he is- its funny how someone can look so tall on a 12" screen
yet be short when in the flesh!
The gig itself was good too, I'd not heard them before, and now
they are my new favourite band. Some very good songs, and well
performed. (buy the album now!) There was one song (the name of
which escapes me!) which was kind of bitchy and was introduced
as being a song about 'a girl (he) met at work'. Not sure how
we should take that, but it seemed to confirm rumours of dissension
in the ranks.
Oh, and when asked by someone (not me!) if any of the cast were
gay, instead of saying yes or no, he replied that he wouldn't
out them because he loves them all.
I did manage to speak to James about the move to Angel next season,
and he had this to say "I was really upset that it (the news
of the move) got out so early, for me it spoiled the ending, took
away from Spike's sacrifice" (We reassured him that we still
cried! He seemed to like that). When I asked how Spike would return,
James said that he didn't know yet, and couldn't wait to find
One thing I forgot though, was to try and help him with the pronunciation
of 'bollocks'. Oh well, there's always next year, when I go over
to LA to hang out at the Viper Room with them all... ;-)
[> [> [> Re: Once
more, with feeling please (contains WKCS S5 AtS) -- cougar,
12:57:01 06/17/03 Tue
Well thanks O'Caileagh for the two degrees of separation/ virtual
experience. Sometimes getting a glimpse behind the illusion of
Television can change your perception of it. I was once on the
set of the X-Files and suddenly the set of every show I saw no
longer looked believable, all I saw was plywood and backdrop paintings.
Had to lull myself into suspending disbelief again. Anyway, glad
you had fun and with minimum drool!
[> [> [> What could
have been -- mamcu (drooling with envy), 12:57:29 06/17/03
"...I was really upset that it (the news of the move)
got out so early, for me it spoiled the ending, took away from
It would have really been great for JM and for AtS if we hadn't
known. Imagine all the weeping and "Spike Lives" T-shirts,
etc.--and then what joy when it turned out that he wasn't gone.
At the same time, if it had played out like that, I would have
felt really manipulated (unless it hadn't actually happened until
[> [> [> Very cool!
-- ponygirl, 13:42:25 06/17/03 Tue
[> [> [> Interesting
-- s'kat, 14:22:04 06/17/03 Tue
Thanks for this Cailleagh.
What I'm curious about is whether his shooting schedule
for Italian Heat is going to conflict with Angel. I doubt it since
they probably dealt with it in the negotiations.
But the contract lawyer in me is curious. ;-)
On the height thing - I'm told he's about 5'8 in person.
I remember a friend of mine, who used to be a professional actress,
explaining how on film it's better not to be tall, in fact the
smaller the better, since sets are so small and it looks better
on camera. Big people tend to overwhelm the shot and you have
to work around it. She also said that since the average person
is between 5'2-5'8, it also works better. I tested her theory
and realized that actors such as James Arness, Clint Eastwood,
Arnold Schwezneggar really do overwhelm the screen. Sly Stallon,
according to William Goldman is not a big man - about a little
over 5'ft. Paul Newman was on 5'8, Tom Cruise 5'8, Brad Pitt?
5'8, most actors aren't real tall. And on Btvs - SMG herself was
5ft - tiny. Which is why DB and MB looked so huge next to her.
Actresses? Very few and hard to get roles. We have Nicole Kidman,
Sigourney Weaver, Mareial HEminway, Brook Sheilds,
Julia Roberts - the rest are well under 5'8.
So clearly you can succeed being tall, but it's easier not to
The girl he mentioned, probably was an extra he dated. I wouldn't
read too much in to it. I've heard the song Dangerous is probably
based on MT. But that's just a rumor.
I've only heard the clips though. Album isn't widely distributed
- it's not available on amazon or barnes and noble like Ash's
[> [> [> [> Re:
Interesting -- O'Cailleagh, 15:30:16 06/18/03 Wed
Just to clarify, I heard about Italian Heat somewhere online (might
have even been here!)-not from James. Don't know why, just felt
it was important that I pointed that out!
Yeah, 5'8" is about my guess too, all I'm really sure of
is he's a good coupla inches shorter than me (and I'm about 6').
I checked through the lyrics on one of the GOTR websites, it was
'Dangerous', which wasn't actually as bitchy as I thought. I guess
I must've misheard parts of it...comes of being partially deaf
I suppose! Oh, the album is available through one of the websites,
the U.S. one I think which I believe was www.gotr.com
[> Thanks!! -- LeeAnn,
02:11:54 06/17/03 Tue
Thanks for asking him... but until he makes more movies how can
I do that?
But at Moonlight Rising he said:
Um, politics. I love politics. I love examining any center
of power and the human machinations that people go through to
try to get that power. Uh, because it's all bullshit. History-
history, the newspaper, it's all the viewpoint of the winners.
And I- to be able to gaze past what they're telling you and try,
try to piece together what is actually happening is just fascinating
to me. I used to um, I used to watch all 3 news broadcasts, CBS,
NBC and ABC. And PBS, in the same evening; I'd tape em. And I
really started to notice that the different news organizations
spin the news in different ways. They have a lot of power, they
could do that. And I started to kinda, this was about ten years
ago, started to see beyond that. And uh, it's a real passion.
But my brother, we were talking, I forget, I was talking to my
brother and he's like when are you gonna run for office. I was
like, well, I'd have to cut my hair first. But yeah, maybe, maybe
much later. I don't know if I wanna sink down from actor to politician.
So he might enjoy some anonymous political chat.
I don't think he's as techless as we might think since at one
convention last year he mentioned he was working on a letter to
Joss on his laptop. If he can do word processing he can certainly
IRC. And with hard core political chat there is no mention of
Buffy or him. And you learn a lot. Stuff never mentioned by corporate
[> [> Re: Thanks!!
-- O'Cailleagh, 10:49:43 06/17/03 Tue
'Thanks for asking him... but until he makes more movies how can
I do that?'
That's what I thought LeeAnn, but I guess that short of a letter-writing
campaign to all major Hollywood types, that's probably your best
bet! He does have a movie in the works at the moment, Italian
Heat I think its called. In it he plays a gay man...I was going
to ask him about it, see if he needed any help with characterisation
(by which I mean the gay sex!), but I decided not to in the end!
He did seem to be quite political, (highly opposed to Genetically
Modified Organisms etc), but I don't think you have much chance
of running in to him on a politics board, he really doesn't like
the internet at all.
[> [> [> Stars and
the internet -- s'kat, 14:10:09 06/17/03 Tue
"but I don't think you have much chance of running in to
him on a politics board, he really doesn't like the internet at
Gellar said somewhat the same thing a while back in PRemier when
they did an issue on internet sites and SMG said she barely if
ever looked at them. She did however make sure that the site carrying
her name was kosher. And JM has stated that when he first came
on to Btvs in 1997-98, he did hop on the internet, even did a
few yahoo chats, then quickly learned to hop off of it, when he
realized how it could really mess with your brain (if you're famous)
and make you get cocky. He said if he spent much time on it, he
would start to believe his own press and forget to just go clean
his toilet. He advised his band members to do the same thing -
avoid the internet and not spend too much time on their sites
or sites fan's set up for them. You get too cocky - you lose it.
I'd have to say - he's right on that. Can you imagine what it
would be like to surf the net if you were JAmes Marsters, David
Boreanze, Sarah Michelle Gellar or anyone remotely famous with
a serious fan following?? Think about it for a minute. Plus unlike
some of us, they don't have to be on the net or on a computer
all day. I have to check and use email. Something tells me Marsters
[> [> [> [> Rosie
O'Donnell was an exception to that. -- WickedBuffy, 17:26:21
She cultivated fans on the 'net, personally visited her AOL Forum
weekly chatting up the people and just plain was online not only
at home, but also went online during her television show.
Which could explain her current hatsize. }:>
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Rosie O'Donnell was an exception to that. -- s'kat,
17:36:41 06/17/03 Tue
Well, she's not really in the category of actress so much as talkshow
host. Oprah Winfrey does the same thing apparently. Quite a different
thing when your biz is chatting up celebrities and discussing
books as opposed to being one. (Not that O'Donnel and Winfrey
aren't celebrities of course...but well you see my point. ;-)
And yep...probably explains their hatsize. Fame truly is the cancer
of success. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I'm reporting you to Ms. O'Donnel. She won't like your
non-actress comment at all. -- Kooshball Kelvin, Ro's Sycophantic
Soundman, 18:01:37 06/17/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
On a sidenote, I met Rosie O'Donnell (have a picture to prove
it)...and her head is ENORMOUS! -- Rob, 18:00:30 06/17/03
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Heh! see? It got that way from reading about herself
on the net! -- WickedBuffy ::wondering who Rob DOESN'T have
a picture of::, 18:53:42 06/17/03 Tue
"Bat Boy: The Musical" is coming to Detroit (my town)
this summer. SO excited! -- Rochefort, 00:52:50 06/17/03
[> Awesome! Do NOT miss
it! :o) -- Rob, 07:28:37 06/17/03 Tue
Quasimodo (slight spoiler Crush) -- mamcu, 09:11:59 06/17/03
WILLOW VOICEOVER: I just don't see why he couldn't end up with
Cut to inside. Tara, Buffy, and Willow are walking along the hallways.
WILLOW: They could have the wedding right there. Beneath the very
bell-tower where he labored thanklessly for all those years.
TARA: No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of
Quasimodo's actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral
compass, no understanding of right. Everything he did, he
did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him
back. (They come to a vending machine and stop walking. Tara
digs in her purse. Willow looks in hers as well) Also, you can
tell it's not gonna have a happy ending when the main guy's all
This sounded so much like an argument I've read often here about
Spike, and made me think of the similarities of Spike and Quasi
(aside from the bumpiness). Spike's hopeless yearning for Buffy,
his monster-hood, his willingness to do anything for her, his
self-sacrifice--and maybe what Tara says is true of him. Though
I'm of the party who believe Spike went beyond the selfish by
the end, I thought this was a striking comparision. Interesting
that The Hunchback is discussed in this episode that is so focussed
on Spike's unrequited feelings for Buffy--must have been intended
as a comment.
(Sorry if this has been said many times.)
[> Fury and Lit References
-- Anneth, 11:06:02 06/17/03 Tue
Crush is a Fury ep; one of the things I find interesting about
Fury as a writer is that he likes to "borrow" plot lines
and devices, (heck, even whole plots!) from other works, and he's
quite up-front about it. For instance, in Helpless, he bases Psycho-Vamp-whathisname's
tormenting of Buffy on the Little Red Riding Hood myth; he even
goes so far as to have Buffy wear a red coat and hood, and have
the "wolf" wear it when he curls up on the Summers'
porch to lure Joyce out of the house. (IIRC.) Fear, Itself is
also a good example of Fury's prediliction; it's a big Wizard
of Oz ripoff. It's always fun to see a new Fury ep, for me - "what's
he gonna reference tonight?" He may not be subtle about what
he's doing, but I enjoy it nonetheless.
[> [> Re: Fury and Lit
References -- s'kat, 13:55:58 06/17/03 Tue
What's also interesting about the Hunchback reference is that
last year, I remember a poster on either this board or B C & S,
stating how Quasimodo in Hugo's work was supposed to be the true
hero of the piece. The person stated that this ugly monsterous
character's ability to love and sacrifice himself for love overshadowed
the more narcissitic characters in the work, the evil Priest who
wanted Esmeralda for himself, Esmeralda who wanted the handsome
solider, and the solider who lusted after Esmeralda. Ironically
it was the monster who had the heart of gold. I've never read
this work and it's not how it's been portrayed in the movies I've
seen. But the poster seemed to be have done a thesis on it and
I found the comments interesting - particularly since they seemed
to be the opposite of Fury's twist on it.
What is also interesting is in commentary on Succubus Club (see
archives for my transcript of it), Fury states that he misunderstood
the character of Spike and Spike could love and show compassion,
b/c he was unique amongst the vampires in having retained part
of his soul. A comment that got a bit of scoff from Minear, who
didn't see Fury's need for such a justification. From Minear's
view - vampires could love and do good things for those they loved,
yet still be amoral and evil like anyone else. Minear was closer
to Whedon on this. It's interesting that Fury in some ways takes
the more linear black and white view while Minear and Whedon seem
to take a far more gray one regarding Whedon's vampire motif.
[> [> [> Re: Fury
and Lit References -- Yellow Bear, 14:18:24 06/17/03 Tue
Do you have a specific link to this archive? In my recollection,
Fury has this justification to explain some fan confusion about
Spike, not his own confusion when it comes to Spike .
[> [> [> [> Re:
Fury and Lit References -- s'kat, 14:24:25 06/17/03 Tue
Look in the atpo existential scooby archives. Under my posting
name. May. Succubus Club. Fury.
And no, don't know the link nor did I save the transcript I did.
Or you can goggle Succubus Club and listen to the telecast yourself.
Don't have link for that either. Sorry.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Fury and Lit References -- Yellow Bear, 14:33:05
I didn't want to have to re-listen to the whole broadcast just
for a minor point so I thought I would hit you up for the link.
Thanks & I will check the archives.
[> [> [> [> [>
doesn't seem to be there...did anyone else manage to find the
link? -- Alison, 14:34:07 06/17/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Okay here's a repost of the fury/Minear Succubus Club
-- s'kat, 15:16:08 06/17/03 Tue
I went to the archives and hunted. HEre's the link:
You have to look under Existential Scoobies not Google
and go to May - it's in Voy's archives not the Web's for some
And for those too lazy to scroll through, here's a repost complete
Listening to it now and here is a semi transcript:
= mine and () mine or summaries
Tim Minear (TM) and David Fury(DF). Commentator (C)
Angel (ATS) and Firefly (F)
Lots of typos and mistakes I'm sure. It's late and this was hard.
TM: David F has very deep and sultry voice, smoked bunch of cigs
Had a hand in breaking stories to ep .7, after Firefly, got back
at ep .15 and wrote that story with Mere and came back for finale.
[so he co-wrote Orpheus]
TM: Left for F for ep.7, before started production after DG, there
was much involvement, then F took over completely and I was accused
of abandoning, not naming names, came back, quality spiked then
dropped when I returned, strang
DF: offices over at there were comfortable, all F/Btvs/Ats
were together. Ats = WB, Btvs=PAramont, F= Fox.
(Voices hard to figure so excuse mistakes)
[huge section regarding a joke on pretzel keg...can't possibly
transcribe it all. And other silly writers jokes and geeky stuff.
I spent more time on Ats this year - lots of time downstairs,
disenfranchised from Buffy, he went to Ats b/c of TM. Not involved
on breaking on Buffy this year.
First time. spent more time on Ats. TM - kept saying come on to
ats, you and me buddy...then tM left and he went you suckered
me!! But he was there in the beginning of season at least breaking
stories, so we felt he was there.
It was okay, fine. Weird year - started out with someone new and
thrown in a position couldn't possibly follow. We become sort
of a machine. Lot of growing pains. (joke about the show Growing
pains) Bell clicked in to do the day to day.
And picked up.
C= that's the big news, talk about later... b/c there's talk and
like to talk about the talk.
[Break - 2.5 minutes - Bif Naked's - no clue what it is but I
don't remember it from Buffy. Not that good IMHO. Something about
banging my head and not hearing a word I said in the chorus. ugh.
Ah Moment of Weakness is the name. And the song goes out to Jasmine,
AlexisWEb from HLOD. Uhm sorry it wasn't - that's Lucky. ugh ]
C= Down to the wire and we thought we were going to lose both
shows...did you know?
DF= Ats was always a bubble show, the network waits until last
minute. We didn't know this year, really didn't know.
Sat down with and editor and did all the cool stuff we did the
last two years and didn't assume for a moment that network saw
it. 20th sent us a tape of another show they'd sent and their's
was lame clip packet and said do something like this. So we said
we'll do something cool. (The clip package was roswell).
TM - went in there with a movie like one. DG, JW, JB and TM
and decided season finale was really a pilot for next year.
AI offered LA branch of W&F and had to go in pitch it and they
have to do it every year. But this season was more drastic. Last
year they did a major cliffhanger. But this year was far more
serious - major question mark. The direction we're taking was
to entice us. Joss pitched it early in the year to writers and
they realized they had to change it. Is it too arcy, too soapy,
too dark, can new viewers get into it? Can we get more sunlight.
C= was it you
C= connor coming back?
TM= we decided this before we even cast the role. We had the prophecy
that the father would kill the son - but we wanted to go to the
Stella Dallas place and decided it way before we cast it. Didn't
know exactly how. didn't want to kill him exactly, wanted to do
a twist on it.
Don't remember whose idea it was to do - probably Joss, but we
all discussed and really loved it. The whole notion of taking
away free will for happiness and Angel fighting that and then
doing that for his son really felt right.
DF= we knew CC was the Big Bad for A4. But CC was pregnant so
how are we going to do Angel doing a fight with the big bad pregnant
it was Tim's idea for both Willow and Darla back, not all Joss.
What we came up with CC's pregnancy was that the child - Jasmine
would be the true Big Bad. And not big evil guy - no a woman,
and it's not an evil woman, but someone who'd bring peace.
TM= we were so bored with the big evil kung fu fighting bad guy.
Jasmine - had a garden of evil element - except there are rules.
TM= CC - initially wanted her to come out of her coma and put
her fist through Jasmine's skull. But didn't work b/c CC couldn't
work those hours at that point in her pregnancy, all she could
do was be in a coma for a part of the period. So we had to work
around her. Sometimes things just are the mother of necessity.
C= Why Cordelia as the BB ?
DF=[they always planned it] There's no drama in a love that can
be. It creates an emotional resonance for the good mother to turn.
TM= when we had her ascended into heaven...we hated that turned
us off, gave wrong thing
DF= actually we didn't know where to go with her there. So we
had to figure out where to go from there.
[This was confusing section - voices overlap]
It was her - her body used by this thing. The C/C wasn't supposed
to be sexy. It was supposed to disturbing and creepy. TM =No way
sexy fun, creepy goodness
DF = no way to bring her back the way she was before, I loved
the original Cordy, but since we wrote her out of that, we couldn't
TM= we did erase her memory and tried to bring her back with old
Cordy. But we want them to grow
The problem this year was we had an actress who was pregnant...if
she hadn't been pregnant we'd never have done it.
Reason I wanted to bring Darla back in Inside Out to bring the
closure. But our hands completely tied b/c Cordy got pregnant
and had to put it in.
C= she'll be back?
TM/DF = she'll be back in some way, we need closure. She needs
to come out of the coma and she is part of Angel and important
to his arc. He's longing for her. Always hanging over him. Cares
about her as his love.
TM = don't want to see him pining for her.
Talked about not finding her - but a complete repeat of last year.
TM= wrote as a season final, not series final, wrote it as a pilot
for next season.
c= would new season include Connor
DF = not in the capacity we had. They'll be an episode where he'll
be. Too familiar to Dawn scenerio.
TM= wants to do the episode where possibly these parents have
a kid with super-powers and come to Angel for help.
Always try to write from Angel's pov. There's this kid and here's
this guy really cool - but he doesn't get him as a dad and that
kills Angel because he is the dad, and the father keeps killing
the son over and over again.
(Okay this was hard - so will try to fill in gaps, apparently
Connor had been written to always exit in a manner like this -
either to be killed directly by Angel or in a twist. Also Cordelia
was always meant to be S4 big bad because of the emotional resonance
of having Angel deal with his love becoming evil and the surrogate
mother of his son being so. But CC got pregnant and screwed up
the story line - so they had to write around it. And came up with
the JAsmine arc which Whedon pitched. Sounds like they really
do work collaboratively on this and Whedon throws ideas out and
everyone comes to a consensus and plays with it. At any rate I
think they were very focused on the theme that Angel is dealing
with the father killing the son. Also the whole free will idea
of - Angel fighting for it - then as a twist removing it from
[Break song is Pavlov's Bell by Aimee Mann. YES!! My favorite
song. Thank you.]
DF = Sleeper - wrote teaser in first act
c= how does getting credited work?
DF = whoever's really up, gets first crack. Story didn't break
until half way through it and I was writing Angel 10 at same time.
LMPTM - had to prep my episode, 3 kids , and couldn't do it -
went to Goddard and asked if he would write it with him b/c had
Peace-Out - he didn't write the fourth act, SDeknight wrote the
fight scene, Craft and Fain wrote the last scene.
Sleeper - glad to have name on. Doug Petrie actually wrote second
act. Aimee Mann wrote the song.
C= Firefly - what's the sit with that.
TM = cancelled, but airing in UK - hello, watch the Sci-Fi channel
where it's airing. Sci-Fi channel in US? Not big on Sci-Fi. The
whole season, with three unaired episodes, and the gag reel and
commentary is coming out on DVD. Beyond that, all can say is Firefly
not yet dead.
Going to write a show for Fox called Wonder Falls - so sort of
leaving. (Originally called Maid of the Mist but bad title.)
DF = Tim will always have place to go.
C= no more Angel?
TM =I'm gone. I'm executive producing and writing the new series.
DF = Twin Peaks like. about a girl who works in sovenire shop
in Niagra Falls and they talk to her and don't know if TM:it's
god or what. Or if she's insane. Todd Harland who directed pilot
and Malcom in Middle is with it. Going to happen after World Series.
talking about mid-season and launched off of American Idol.
Sunday night is the most watched night of TV. So will be put there.
Very high profile show. Mid-season very good time.
C= What will be doing? (lots of joking about Buffy ending)
DF = Not sure if he will be staying with Angel
SDeknight, Drew Goddard, JBell, (if angel hadn't been picked up
TM would have picked up DGoddard), Mere has left - she's completely
gone, Ben Edlund is there and was a huge part of firefly and we
wanted him, Craft and Fain definitely staying. Fury has some offers
- I'm officially an consultant, if I come to Angel - they'd have
to make a whole new deal with me and Angel is operating on a smaller
budget next season and Buffy was very low budget and 1st season
was shot on 16 mm of buffy. Anyways...they had to cut back on
TM = DB went out of his way to get the show renewed. He promoted
it. Went to all the talk shows. Went out of his way. Really is
on board for next year and Really Really excited to be back.
DF = WB wanted more out of Buffy World, WB never gave its due
until this year. This year more than ever - were responding. Gave
calls - great episode.
TM = the Execs at the network love the show, but not in charge
of picking it up. Decisions made by people in NY. Had to crunch
numbers. Show saved itself.
DF = Doing very well on Sunday. Best in that slot of anything.
Numbers go up in 2nd half hour. Which is a big deal. New for the
season. Good reviews. Great demographics.
TM = moved it to Wed's after Smallville, finally realized put
Superman and Batman on same night.
DF = Know where Smallvill comes out, (ours we don't)
(jokeing about Dawnson's Creek season finale)
[Break. Song: Mrs. Xander Harris - the song from Selfless.
(Filling in gaps - apparently DF may or may not be on Angel next
year. He didn't sound like it though. Tim Minear definitely isn't.
Nor is Mere Smith. The definites are: Joss Whedon, Drew Goddard,
Craft and Fain,Steve Deknight, Jeff Bell, and Ben Edlund)
(lots of joking about Drew Goddard.)
C= when does it start breaking
DF = starts in June. Something we've done before, we often break
one or two before go off. But didn't do it this year. So come
back a little early to do it. Last year late soon.
Joss will be writing and directing first episode of next year.
C= JM - what was decision
DF?TM = No brainer. James was always. We're going to keep James
employed b/c he's great. We love him dearly.
Now getting hatemail Spike or I'm ruining Buffy. Silly.
James is coming back as Spike. We really haven't worked out what
he'll be. He'll be a foil.
TM:Faith spin-off, I was going to do it with JM and Faith.
After that fell through and definitely bring him over for some
episodes not make a regular, but was one of the things network
wanted. we like James so decided to bring him in.
He's terrific. But we don't know what he'll be. Except definitey
C= Second Billing?
DF/TM= we don't know.
We did NOT push anyone out to make room for Spike. Connor story
ended the way we wanted it to. We love Vincent but that was the
way the story wanted to tell itself. We did not in any way push
aside characters or push them out to make room for Spike
DF= there will be more female characters, some seen before and
some new ones.
TM/Df = Jonathan Woodward - who played Holden was in the last
unaired Firefly. He is wonderful and was in Tim's Firefly episode.
He's a star.
DF = yeah we love Gwen. The thing about Gwen is run the risk a
little bit - take away a little bit from the main character.
TM = originally designed to come back. Look for a female protoganist/antogaonist
in the mix. Lilah will be back.
Not sure what they'll do.
(TM - mentions that Angel did do statutory rape on Buffy, since
she was 16 at the time not yet 17, turned it just after and it's
not legal. )
(okay filling in the gaps during the music break - they talk so
fast - apparently, there's been a lot of comments that Spike pushed
out the other characters - and that is simply NOT true. Connor's
story was written before he was cast. They had decided it would
end at the end of S4. They always planned on keeping James MArsters
- whether the spin-off was slayer school (male lead) or Faith
- he'd be there.
When that didn't happen they decided to bring him on for a few
episodes on Angel. The network made it clear that they wanted
James as part of the series and it was the clincher.
So they compromised and agreed to make him a regular to get the
series picked up by the network, but this really wasn't a problem
since they adore James Marsters and think he's a terrific guy.
What his role will be? They aren't sure yet, but he will be a
foil. The commentary asked if he'd be a villain and they said
that wasn't really it and no, more a foil. Damn! Now I'm going
to be searching for spoilers all summer. Also Joss Whedon is writing
and directing the first episode of the season. Please note that
these guys aren't still with Angel so - while they may not know
what is coming, joss definitely appears to.)
[Music - selection from When She Was Bad]
(still joking about Drew Goddard - now about Buffy)
DF = She'll be gone regardless. She's on to movies now.
(joking about Scooby Doo now)
C= Talk about the run?
DF = still freelancing, didn't come on permanent until the 4th
season. Joss always thinks of me being around since the begining
, met him when Joss was in development first year.
Great experience to be part of something so meaningful to people.
Once in a lifetime thing to find a show like Btvs that changes
face of entertainment. Alias inspired.
TM = Joss' joke, only show on WB not trying to be Buffy is Angel.
Df = wistfullness, knowing part of it, great thing JW gave me.
Hope can live up to it and other work can mean as much.
C= What are your thoughts on this season?
DF = The season's been - we struggled a little with the arc, b/c
FE's inability to do any harm itself and the new girls potentials
became very crowded and diffused. Did good work within that. It
gets to the heart about what Buffy means. When people take a step
back from it after the season is over - will have more affection
Anyone who really thought about last season - very dark and compelling
- but necessary if tell the story telling. We had to earn her
coming back from dead and it's difficult story - too quickly feel
cheated. Characters grow and change need to do it. As much as
have affection for early years - is false for us to go back and
recreat it, creates pain but also creats interesting stories.
(Commentators go on about their opinions)
TM = trace back to an episode when Spike ruined the show
DF = was school hard.
I got this hate mail about how Spike was the Fonzi. He was the
cool character with leather jacket which we wrapped the show around
and that's NOT how we write our shows. Spike provided Buffy with
an emotional through line she wouldn't have and Angel was gone,
own show, making him her nemesis and mortal enemy at first was
interesting way to go.
now I wasn't for B/S but I rationalized that.
LMPTM - they thought we were changing the whole vampire mythology
- Spike is an anamoly in the vampire world. We tried to say it
in the very beginning in Surprise, his mother, he is something
special, he retained some part of his soul or compassion that
was always there that allowed him to fall for Buffy. Whatever
we told was always there.
TM = don't have to rationalize it at all - the vampires retain
the human personality, of course they'd care.
DF = with Spike, there's something different about him.
A vampire without a soul was able to fall for a slayer.
(Agreeing he was a sensitive bad poet not a jerk like Liam.)
TM = always amuses me when people say that people can't love
without a soul. They can love quite well. Evil people can love
even with souls.
Love and obsession not necessarily a force for good.
DF = chip triggered things from consciousness, all emotions
from human side came forth and he was suddenly able to care about
Dawn and Joyce.
(Lots of spec on the finale and the writers trying to say zip
and the commentator is driving them nuts. ugh)
((Joking about the hate mail and fan response on Spike. TM and
DF really joking about these fans.)
(Filling in the gaps - apparently Spike took over Angel's place
in Buffy for the emotional arc. They state how he's always been
different - that he retained a portion of his humanity and how
they've gone out of their way to distinquish each vamp. There
is no indication btw that Spike won't go evil before the end and
won't be a villain on Angel next year. Nor is there any indication
that he won't be a good guy and turn good. They really don't paint
it one way or the other. Fury says he had problems with the Spike
story, because he felt it was off-track but has reconciled himself
to it, early on he felt need to justify, but now he gets it, Minear
seems really confused by Fury's reaction and said he didn't see
why he ever had to rationalize it.)
C= asking Tim about Buffy.
TM = I never worked on Buffy. She was in one of my episodes of
DF = I'll talk to Tim about Buffy story.
TM = to me its bigger than Buffy, working with Joss, David and
crews, writers - incredibly rich experience, no ennui b/c my relationships
will always continue. Goes beyond job.
This was the best film school and got to direct, first directing
on Angel. First time directed network tv show. Been making films
since a kid. Better than a movie, because get to write, direct
and constantly change things as I'm directing. I didn't work on
(Lots of chit-chat and annoying joking.)
David Fury - I got so much hate mail from singing. Really.
TM - can't imagine getting the hate mail for singing.
(He sang the mustard song with Tim Minear.
Okay it's wrapping up. And I'm exhausted it's 1 am.
Tried to keep objective.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> And here's the B C & S post on Hunchback of Notre
Dame -- s'kat, 15:28:46 06/17/03 Tue
Thanks to the amazingly cool lurker friend who sent it to me!!
And happened to save the post. Very nice!!!
Date Posted: 08:05:45 03/08/02 Fri
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 184.108.40.206
Subject: Re: Excellent Foreshadowing from Crush-Nope just really
stupid literary opinion
In reply to: UHC 's message, "Excellent Foreshadowing from
Crush" on 08:05:45 03/08/02 Fri
"No, see, it can't end like that, 'cuz all of Quasimodo's(Spike)
actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no
understanding of what was right. Everything he did, he did out
of love for a woman who'd never be able to love him back. Also,
you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending, when the main
guys all bumpy."
But you do realize in the entire history of literary crit that
ranks in the Top Ten stupidest, right?
You have read Hunchback, right?
You do realize that Hugo was writing a screed against the corruption
of conscience by Church and State?
You do know Hugo used the entire book to prove that THE ONLY
MORAL COMPASS worth having was a loving heart?
You do know Hugo argued that be loving one person you learned
to love all people?
You do know Hugo believed loving, whether or not the love was
returned, was the greatest good, the greatest virtue in all the
You do know realize Q was the most moral character in the book?
You do know the churchman and the soldier, the traditional
heros (ie Buffy, Willow, and Xander), were evil because they used
traditional moral compasses of society instead of being guided
You do know by the standards of the novel, Spike is the most moral
character on Buffy?
You do realize that Tara was just plain wrong in her opinions
You do realize that right?"
LOL! No, David Fury was either wrong or has an amazingly dark
sense of humor and enjoyed doing his own little twist on Hugo's
Thank you again, to the wonderful person who saved this for me.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: And here's the B C & S post on Hunchback
of Notre Dame -- Yellow Bear, 15:57:54 06/17/03 Tue
This is very interesting but I've never read Hunchback so I have
to take this reading with a grain of salt. After all, different
interpretations of the same text is what this little discussion
forum is all about.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Anyone out there care to give their
take on Hunchback?? -- s'kat, 16:18:08 06/17/03 Tue
Had somewhat the same response, since I haven't read it either.
Although, the Charles Laughton version does in some ways support
this reading of the text. So does the Disney version for that
matter. But again, as we've discovered just analyzing Buffy, each
take is very different and indicative of the specific reader or
The person who had this take - I believe had studied the text
in depth and written a thesis on it. So they knew more than most.
Would love to see someone else whose studied it give their take.
(Oh in case there's any confusion - I did not necessarily view
Spike in S5-S7 or the other characters in the way this person
did. Just reposting another view is all.)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: And here's the B C & S post on
Hunchback of Notre Dame -- fresne, 12:26:18 06/18/03 Wed
Exactly, reactions can be so varied. Since when I read Hunchback,
I desperately wanted Esmeralda to end up with the priest. I mean
okay, he was a priest, but he had such a consuming hunger for
knowledge. He wanted to know. To understand. I found that incredibly
compelling. He was in his way rather like Willow. Internally compelled
to a study of the dark arts, because he felt that the light held
no more secrets to study and he had to know. To see.
Which makes an interesting contrast to Quasi, who is deaf, blind
and practically mute. Speaking instead the language of bells.
Or for that matter Esmeralda's "husband" the writer,
who constantly observes, records and yet is somewhat distanced
from all of the action.
But then you get into the meat of the text and after that I'd
rather she had ended up with the dancing goat than with any of
the remaining ships in harbor. Alas, French Gothic Literature.
Oh, yeah, that's going to have a happy ending.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Thanks for reposting s'kat. Both the interveiw
and the hunchback post were worth reading -- Alison, 17:48:56
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Fury and Lit References -- Yellow Bear, 14:56:24
I found it. Congrats on an amazing job of transcription. I think
I would lose my mind trying to transcribe around Kitty & Candy.
BTW, I love Kitty & Candy for doing these interviews (they both
seem lovely) but they ask the worse questions sometimes. Drew
Goddard was about to go into how they broke S7 and they cut him
off with some question about his writing background. It was a
true scream-at-your-radio moment.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Yup. I'll never ever do it again. -- s'kat, 15:20:53
You're more tolerant of them than I am. :-) Fury and Minear actually
were pretty good at holding their own. So were RKK, JE, and Greenberg.
I think Goddard's problem was it was one against two.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Yup. I'll never ever do it again. -- Yellow
Bear, 15:50:39 06/17/03 Tue
I hear what your saying about K&C but I didn't want to be too
mean. Succubus Club interviews are some of the best peaks behind
the curtain we have so I hate to seem churlish about the quality
of the interviews.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Yup. I'll never ever do it again.
-- s'kat, 16:01:04 06/17/03 Tue
Oh don't worry too much - they stay off fan boards. ;-)
Actually the interviews are pretty good. And they aren't that
bad at all. Tend to make the writers feel at ease, so at ease
that they sometimes say things they shouldn't.
Minear got in trouble for that interview (I didn't transcribe
everything he said.)
On the fence. I've seen a few better ones here and there on city
of angels and SFX. Yeah, I'm not obsessed, not me. (sigh) ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Yup. I'll never ever do it again.
-- Yellow Bear, 16:21:42 06/17/03 Tue
SFX is great, especially when they have Noxon or Minear do an
episode break down of an entire season. It's so strange because
I don't even like sci fi (so I tend to come at Buffy from a different
angle than most) but I find myself buying SFX often which a few
years ago I could not even imagine.
As for K&C, they are good at getting the writers relaxed & happy
so the anecdotes start flying but they never seem to ask the questions
I want to hear. So many interesting things in LMPTM that they
never even touched on.
[> [> The meaning of
Quasimodo -- mamcu, 17:50:31 06/17/03 Tue
You may remember this from English class, but if not: Quasimodo
was left at the cathedral the Sunday after Easter, called "quasimodo"
Sunday because the Latin gospel for the day began "quasi
modo.." or "almost like" and continued so that
it read "almost like newborn babes." The name definitely
had overtones of resurrection. I interpret that to mean that Q.
was reborn in his love for Esmerelda and Spike is reborn in his
love for Buffy. But reborn completely, or just from the depths
they were in before the women appeared--not clear to me.
[> [> [> Intriguing!
I like it! :> -- WickedBuffy, 18:06:07 06/17/03 Tue
[> [> [> Disney says
Quasimodo means "half-formed". Disney lies! -- Scroll,
19:58:29 06/17/03 Tue
Actually Disney may not have actually lied since I do think "quasi-modo"
*does* mean half-formed. But that's probably not the original
reason for Q's name, it's probably as you say, and it's clearly
not the complete meaning.
[> [> [> [> Well,
there was an earlier, British movie that Disney borrowed heavily
from . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:49:12 06/17/03 Tue
That movie also said Quasimodo meant either half-formed or half-human.
Can't really reccomend the movie. Bad acting, bad effects, bad
directing. Only point of interest is that Quasimodo is played
by Anthony Hopkins.
-- CW, 08:26:26 06/17/03 Tue
It's almost a shame to talk about "The Harvest" separate
from WttH since they were orginally shown as a single two hour
episode. But, there is a different feel about the two . The first
is almost an homage to classic horror, one spooky or shocking
scene after another, but mixed with snappy humor. The second is
far more campy, with Luke's speechifying and Buffy's idiotic pausing
mid-battle to grin at a lame and improbably detached joke from
Xander. Happily, the campy stuff was dropped from the show fairly
quickly, and the clever stuff like Buffy's daylight "in about
nine hours, moron!" survived.
The most interesting thing for me watching it this time is the
difference in social structure between the humans and the vamps.
The good guys are close to anarchy with Buffy defying the rules
of the school and her mother, Xander ignoring Buffy's advise to
stay away, Willow breaking into the city's secure files, even
Giles running a covert fighting establisment under the noses of
the authorities. The vamps have some rebels as well, both Darla
and Jesse get hungry and want to sample the "product"
intended for the Master. But, by and large the bad guys are a
dictatorship. It's do what the boss says, or lose an eye (!),
or as we soon learn, your life. One of the first things that happens
when Spike arrives is that this dictatorship is overthrown, and
the vamps become a lot more like the chaotic humans.
That's a start. What else do people have for discussion?
[> Ooops...didn't see this
here, or I would have put mine here. Sorry. -- Q, 18:09:05
Great observations. The "anarchic" nature of the human
heroes is something I never though of.
One problem with your post... Am I the only one who has major
trauma now whenever someone uses the phrase "lose an eye"?
Dawn and Connor
-- pinkpansy, 09:27:12 06/17/03 Tue
The more I think about it, Dawn and Connor share many similarities.
Dawn is really not meant to be Buffy's sister, the monks HAD to
protect the key so they made it into a human form as Dawn and
GAVE it to the slayer to protect. Dawn became Buffy's sister through
circumstance, not the natural order of life. Dawn required a whole
change in the fabric of reality because she really wasn't meant
to live in the REAL reality. Connor, also part of a bigger plan,
was manipulated into existence by Jasmine. His life also would
never have come to be if some outside force weren't willing it
so. Connor was conceived by Angel and Darla not because of a natural
order but a manufactured order (Jasmine) much like Dawn. Now,
here's my question: If Connor and Dawn both have such bizarre
origins in the world, why is it that Connor struggles with this
so much more than Dawn? Connor battles the ambiguity of his life
all the time to the point where he holds people hostage and declares
that no one ever loved him or wanted him. Does Dawn have a stronger
sense of herself? Or is she really just suppressing her insecurity.
Buffy and Dawn, come to think of it, never really sat down and
talked about this. Dawn went through a brief period in S5 with
the exploration of how she came to be and she DID struggle with
her feeling of not being "Real" but then Glory got in
the picture and these feelings were sidetracked. Then in S5, the
shoplifting was a minor act of rebellion but I think Dawn and
Connor are both coming from the same place and yet Connor is definitely
the more extreme case. Any thoughts?
[> Re: Dawn and Connor
-- superglowy, 09:47:11 06/17/03 Tue
Connor's a whiner and Dawn kicks ass!!!
[> Their differences:
-- HonorH, 10:14:10 06/17/03 Tue
Dawn remembers a family where she was loved and nurtured. Connor
grew up in a Hell dimension with a man who was using him to wreak
revenge on his real father. While Dawn's been through a great
deal of trauma, she has that loving, stable background to her
life. That's why she's able to maintain such a strong sense of
self. Connor never had that. He never had stability or anyone
to show him what real love is. Thus, when he comes back to our
dimension, he's easily manipulated first by Holtz and then by
Evil!Cordy. Every time he thinks he has love or stability in his
life, it's ripped away or shown to be a lie. In the end, he can
no longer even believe in love or family. Dawn is Buffy's triumph;
Connor is Angel's tragedy.
[> [> the ME monkey experiment
-- WickedSimian, 10:25:11 06/17/03 Tue
It reminds me of those experiments with baby monkeys about nuturing.
One set of monkeys were given the minimum of contact and nuturing
and the other set was given the regular amount. The two sets grew
up into to become very different from each other. The nonnurtured
ones were pretty screwed up. The others were fine.
Always comes to mind when comparing how Connor and Dawn turned
[> [> [> Re: the ME
monkey experiment -- Plin, 13:47:30 06/17/03 Tue
In the monkey experiments I remember studying, the deprived group
had mock "mothers" made of wire. It was wrenching to
see how they clung to them, seeking whatever comfort they could
get from an empty frame of cold steel.
Reminds me a lot of Connor and Holtz.
[> One small point that
usually bothers me .... -- WickedBuffy, 11:03:38 06/17/03
Very nice post! Your descriptions of Dawn and Connors differences
I disagree on one point though. I've seen it posted before, so
it's not new. But it confuses me whenever it's stated.
The part about what's "reality". If it happens, it's
reality. No matter where it came from or why. Dawn and Connor
are real (ME universe-wise).
"Dawn became Buffy's sister through circumstance, not
the natural order of life."
"His life also would never have come to be if some outside
force weren't willing it so."
Outside forces play a huge part in where most everything comes
from. Any birth is the result of a very long string of people
meeting, inflluencing, missing one person to meet another, turning
this corner instead of that to get here instead of there.
"The natural order of life" is something people have
argued about forever, it seems. Some believe that only following
a very strict and rigid set of rules is the natural order of life,
anything not within those boundaries is "unnatural".
There are millions of variances as to what each individual personally
believes is "natural". That part is difficult to come
to agreement on.
But reality is whatever is real. From the dictionary:
1. The quality or state of being actual or true.
2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual:
"the weight of history and political realities" (Benno
C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence,
4. That which exists objectively and in fact
1. Existing and not merely potential or possible. See Synonyms
2. Being, existing, or acting at the present moment; current.
Dawn and Connor are realities. They currently exist. Just like
Buffy is real, even though her Slayer powers came from outside
The "natural order of things" is more of an individual
definition than a dictionary dictate. I understand that some may
argue that Dawn and Connor were unnatural, but don't understand
how they could be argued as not "real", not part of
Those two terms are different to me.
..... umm, and no fresne, this is not a lead-in to an essay
about "The Velveteen Rabbit". }:>
[> [> You must stop stalling
on that essay...;-) -- Tchaikovsky, 11:08:23 06/17/03 Tue
Or perhaps you're polishing so that it's word-perfect when it
TCH- still refreshing hopefully
[> [> [> errrrrrrr...
someone stole my keyboard and wrote that Rabbit comment. --
WickedBuffy ::looking around suspiciously::, 18:56:06 06/17/03
[> [> Re: One small point
that usually bothers me .... -- pinkpansy, 11:57:33 06/17/03
I completely agree. By my saying "not the natural order",
I meant Dawn didnt come into her existence through the conventional,
so-called "normal" methods. But nevertheless- her existence
probably just deviated from a former path that would have played
out. This now goes into the topic of fate and determining factors
of why things happen, cause-effect, that whole thing. The scenarios
are endless of what Buffy's life would have been like if Dawn
didn't come. Anyway, I agree that whatever happens is a part of
reality and one can never know for sure what would happen if that
factor didnt play out. It relates to Fred and Gunn in Inside Out,
the little decisions are ours, but when it comes to the big things,
we have no control. I loved Gunn's point that we should grasp
every decision as if it were our own.
Dru - Question -- Rosie, 15:22:48 06/17/03 Tue
When did Spike and Drusilla really first become a couple? Right
after she had sired him in 1880? Or when he killed his first Slayer
[> Re: Spike and Dru - Question
(LMPTM spoiler) -- s'kat, 15:57:09 06/17/03 Tue
According to the following scene from LMPTM, they became a couple
in 1880 right after siring:
CLOSE ON IT as a feminine hand slides over his palm.
SPIKE looks up as
INT. LONDON TOWNHOUSE - 1880 - FLASHBACK - NIGHT
DRUSILLA pulls WILLIAM up to his feet, from the sofa, and they
dance, twirling about, laughing as they kiss.
Ooh, such a pretty house you have,
sweet Willy. Smells of daffodils and
Don't get too attached, now. Won't
be here for long, love.
She sweeps over to the couch. Sits down seductively.
Shall we give it a proper good-bye?
You are a saucy one, aren't you?
He plops down next to her, pulling her to his lap and they kiss,
Oh, Dru... we'll bring the world to
It's ripe and ready, my darling.
Waiting for us to devour its fruit.
We'll ravage this city together, my
pet. Lay waste to all of Europe.
The three of us will teach the snobs
and elitists with their falderal just
You, me and Mother. We'll open their
veins and bathe in their blood as
they scream our names across the--
(off her look)
(squinting at him)
You-- You want to bring your mother
You'll like her.
To eat, you mean?
He grins at what he perceives as a joke. Before he can respond...
According to Petrie's DVD commentary on FFL - Spike won Dru in
1900 with the killing of the Slayer. Since LMPTM is more recent
than PEtrie's commentary and you can read the Boxer
Rebellion scene either way...I'd go with what is in the text for
LMPTM. I think being vamps? They were a couple way before 1900.
[> [> "Spike won
Dru in 1900" -- WickedBuffy, 19:44:18 06/17/03 Tue
I like how you put that.
I always thought they were having sex with each other and whomever
else right away. And as you said, Dru wasn't serious until that
night Spike killed the Slayer and shared the blood. They had a
much deeper bond after that adventure.
[> I think 1880 (spoilers
7.17) -- Maura, 16:00:14 06/17/03 Tue
I've heard theories for both 1880 and 1900, but in LMPTM they
seemed pretty involved right after she sired him, so I'm going
with 1880. Of course, it all may depend on how you define "couple."
Maybe they started having sex in 1880 but became an established
item in 1900?
[> My own personal theory
-- LadyStarlight, 18:27:29 06/17/03 Tue
(warning -- those allergic to spackle might want to skip this)
My feeling is the 1880/1900 split can be explained by looking
at Angelus. In 1880, Drusilla was firmly under Angel's thumb,
and he and Darla traded command of their little 'family' back
and forth. It seemed to amuse Darla to let him take command, in
1900, however, brings about the schism between Angelus/Darla (the
soul thing) and he leaves the family for good. It is implied in
the flashbacks (and in Spike and Dru: Pretty Maids All in a
Row, which, while not canon per se, was approved by someone
at ME) that Spike and Dru also parted ways with Darla shortly
thereafter. Spike also killed his first Slayer, something Angelus
never did. This probably elevated his status in Dru's eyes, turning
him into more of a peer than someone she sired. That's how I explain
[> [> I like your theory,
LadyS :o) -- Scroll, 08:50:25 06/18/03 Wed
While I do understand that everything that shows on screen is
considered canon, I think LMPTM is kind of a ret-con in terms
of the Spike/Dru relationship. I don't see Spike getting Dru's
"affections" quite so easily, at least not once Dru
takes Spike home to meet Daddy. I think Angelus would've put a
stop to any of Spike's notions that he and Dru would be a real
"romantic couple". In fact, from the flashbacks of "Fool
For Love", I'd say Angelus didn't really think Spike was
*good* enough for Dru. And that it isn't until the Angel/Darla
schism after Angel gets back his soul, and when Spike kills his
first Slayer, that Dru finally shifts her attentions from Daddy
Heh. Spackle, spackle. Well, not really. I do think this theory
is sound and makes more sense than Spike getting to be Dru's (real/full-time)
lover for those twenty years between 1880 and 1900.
[> [> [> Relationship
-- Rina, 09:05:05 06/18/03 Wed
I think that Drusilla considered Spike (or William) as hers, from
the moment she sired him in 1880. After all, "she" was
the one who sired him, not Angel. In her eyes, Spike was another
toy (an opinion, I suspect that never really left her). However,
I don't think Spike was elevated to the higher position as her
partner, until he killed his first Slayer and Angel finally broke
with the family in 1900.
[> [> [> LMPTM and
the Fanged Four -- Valheru, 12:55:46 06/18/03 Wed
That is precisely where I have my biggest problem with Lies
My Parents Told Me, Scroll. Most of the attention on that
episode focused on Spike's decision with Wood and the "lesson"
VampWilliam learned from his mother, but it was how Angelus, Darla,
and even Dru were sort of pushed aside in regards to William's
transformation into Spike that bothered me.
It could just be me. Maybe I made too many assumptions from Fool
for Love (and not seeing Darla can't be helping either).
But I really don't think, given what we know of the Fanged Four,
that LMPTM makes much sense.
First of all, I presumed that William did one of two things about
his mother: 1) killed her outright, Angelus-like, in rejection
of his pre-vampire self, or 2) simply forgot about her. The first
option in particular fits very well, since Spike--more than any
other vampire--seems obsessed with destroying all vestiges of
his human life. At least Angelus and Darla somewhat enjoyed
the people they were in life; Spike hated William. So why in the
world would a liberated-from-the-bonds-of-conscience William want
to save the most dominant force of his human life? LMPTM
tries to explain it as Spike's uniqueness, but we already knew
Spike was unique, even as far back as S2, and great amounts of
Seasons 5-7 were dependent upon everyone understanding this; episode
139 is a little late to be hammering the idea home.
There is a strong implication that the events of LMPTM
are the defining moments in the creation of Spike. Forget for
the moment that it isn't even alluded to in FFL. FFL
establishes the idea that William became Spike to exact revenge
on a world that ridiculed him and to get attention from the women
who would otherwise think him beneath them. LMPTM, however,
indicates that the Spike persona begins not with Cecily or William's
"friends" or Drusilla or even the influence of Angelus
and Darla--it was Anne. It wasn't anger and rage that created
Spike, but rather despair. William didn't say, "So the world
thinks me beneath it? I'll show them!"; it was as though
he said, "My mother didn't even love me! Woe. Woe!"
and then spiraled downward into Spike. In other words, LMPTM
sends the message that William didn't rise into Spike,
he fell into Spike.
Did we need that message? Certainly it reinforces the position
that vampirism isn't a valid life choice, that it's a degeneration
of character. But this means that William knew Spike was
a degeneration, created out of misplaced depression. It implies
that Spike acted from misery. What's wrong with that, you might
ask? Well, it means that while almost every other vampire experiences
unashamed glee in their unlife, Spike--the vampire who had always
displayed the extremity of vampiric bliss--wasn't happy at all;
he was unsuccessfully trying to fill in the void of lost maternal
love (which contradicts Spike's FFL assertion that "getting
killed made me feel alive for the very first time"). The
only other exception is Angelus, who was trying to do the same
with paternal acceptance. But there's a difference: Angelus' problems
were in life as Liam, but William didn't lose his mother's love
until he was a vampire. Which begs the question: Did HumanWilliam's
problems influence Spike at all? Or was Spike solely the effect
of VampWilliam's problems?
LMPTM also diminishes the role Angelus and Darla had in
their "children's" unlives. Apparently, there was no
impression upon William of demonic influence (hence his cluelessness
about his mother's changes), so either William was completely
devoid of Spike's later acute perception or Angelus was nowhere
near as evil around his vampire family as he was around everyone
else. And it seems that William thought it was a perfectly perfect
idea to bring his mother into the group, that Darla wouldn't
rip Anne to shreds even on the possibility of losing her maternal
dominance. I can see Dru neglecting to mention such things to
him (and it's not clear if William met Angelus and Darla beforehand),
but you'd think Angelus and Darla would have killed Anne and
William for presuming to do anything without their consent (and
Drusilla would surely have been punished).
IMO, it was all just poorly thought-out revisionist history. Granted,
both Spike and Angel have had their pasts tweaked over the years
(and FFL didn't completely jibe with Spike's previously-known
history either), but changing things with what they then-figured
was only five episodes left in Spike's existence is rather pointless.
"Everything you thought you knew about Spike was all wrong!
See ya!" And to have it all done just to set up a one-episode
parallel between Spike, Wood, and Buffy is almost depressing.
Phew! Got a bit rantish there. Anyway, back to point. IMO, the
changes to Spike's history in LMPTM alter his motivations,
thus changing his whole character. From it, his love for Dru in
S2 changes from a tender remnant of humanity in two evil creatures
into one miserable man's pathetic attempt to recreate his mother
in a crazy girl. It makes his love for Buffy even more
loserly. It turns his view of Joyce from repsect to projection.
I honestly don't see why any of that was necessary.
[> [> [> [> Re:
LMPTM and the Fanged Four -- leslie, 14:28:23 06/18/03
Hmm, I see no evidence that Spike/William had even met
Angelus and Darla at the time of LMPTM. My reading of it was that
Dru turned him, buried him and waiting for him to rise (according
to what I have been informed was her own modus operandi), and
then the two of them had a weekend of wild sex and came home to
eat the servants. As for when Spike and Dru's "partnership"
became viable, well, it seems to me there's a pretty distinct
withdrawal on Dru's part when William suddenly starts babbling
about how much fun it will be to have Mom along for the ride--possibly
the only time in history when it's Dru who's looking like she
thinks Spike's the one who's nuts. Which makes me wonder--was
Dru trying to set up her own Fang Gang, and then decided that
it would be better to bring her new toy home to Daddy after all?
As for the "demonic influence," well, it seems to me
a pretty good joke that the sensitive poet who doesn't like to
think about nasty things and believes that they should be left
to the authorities to deal with, suddenly turns into an advocate
of class warfare as soon as he's vamped. Every age has its own
definition of demonic, and to the Victorians, that really would
have been top of the list. And to top it off by bringing home
a working-class trollop of whatever degree of liveness or deadness
and present her to his mother as his lover--jeeze! If you're going
to do that kind of thing, you set her up in a nice little apartment
somewhere and never, ever allow her to come near your respectable
family. Here his mother is expecting him--realistically or not--to
be bringing home a bride who is obviously significantly more upper
class than they, and he comes in with Dru, a Cockney nutcase even
when she was alive, and evidently Catholic to boot? Now that's
So that appears to be what Spike's first few days as a vampire
were. How he dealt with the stuff with his mother--seeing the
episode on FX last night when he helps Dawn try to resurrect Joyce
suddenly made a hell of a lot more sense. This is a guy who really
knows what it's like to want to resurrect your mother because
he's done it himself, and he's going to be sure that Dawn does
it right, unlike what he did. And even before that, his honest
grief at Joyce's death. I also think they did a wonderful job
of making William's relationship with his mother echo his relationship
with Joyce as it was established in previous seasons--the scene
before the party with Anne has a lot of the same dynamics as the
scene where he's sitting in the Summers kitchen listening to Joyce
tell a story about what happened at work that day, and in both
cases, he's about to try to convey his feelings to a woman who
is going to reject him out of hand.
[> [> [> [> [>
Great post -- Sophist, 16:50:06 06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Very well done. Agree. That's exactly what I saw. Great post.
-- s'kat, 19:52:47 06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Spike in Forever -- Yellow Bear, 20:35:13 06/18/03
Ohmygod, Spike's actions in 'Forever' always confused me. I understood
his affection for Joyce but it never seemed compelling enough
to risk Buffy's scorn at a botched resurrection. Now, it all makes
perfect sense in light of LMPTM. This is actually one of the few
character things that bothered me in all of BTVS but I had made
my peace with it. Great, great point. My wife is going to flip
when I tell her this.
[> [> [> [> Re:
LMPTM and the Fanged Four - Huh? -- Rina, 15:38:41 06/18/03
Are you telling me that you have problems with LMPTM, because
Darla and Angel were not featured in this episode?
[> [> [> [> Re:
LMPTM and the Fanged Four -- Rook, 20:38:10 06/18/03 Wed
>>FFL establishes the idea that William became Spike to
>>exact revenge on a world that ridiculed him and to get
>>attention from the women who would otherwise think him
I never saw this. I saw a guy get rejected and go sit and cry
about it an alley. Dru didn't come up and offer revenge. She offered
escape, and that's what he took.
>>It wasn't anger and rage that created
>>Spike, but rather despair.
THIS is what I saw when I first saw FFL. It's exactly the idea
of Spike's creation that came across to me. Spike wasn't about
getting revenge when he let Dru vamp him. He was about committing
[> [> [> [> [>
Drusilla did not turn William into Spike -- Valheru, 22:55:20
I completely agree with you here. It was William's depression
and despair that drove him to accept Dru's offer. But the creature
we know as Spike was not created that night, just as the creature
we know as Angelus was not created the night Darla sired him.
When William rose as a vampire, that's pretty much all he was--William
as a vampire. "Spike" is a created persona that came
FFL implies that, at some point, Vampire William decided
to turn all of the misery that he had endured as Human William
into anger against those who caused it. The high-society boy becomes
the anti-high-society vampire. It's almost as if he decided to
wage war against everything that had caused him pain as a human.
The device with which he fought that war was the Spike persona.
LMPTM, however, implies that the most important factor
in Vampire William's creation of the Spike persona was Vampire
Anne. After being rejected by Cecily, ridiculed by his peers,
seduced by Drusilla, and imbued with a vampiric demon, we see
that Vampire William...is still pretty much William. After all
the things that happened in FFL that we were led to believe
drove William to becoming Spike, he wasn't Spike after all. He
doesn't make the transformation until after Vampire Anne tells
him she never loved him. Which means that the Spike persona was
created from his pain as a vampire, not as a human.
It's not that I don't like what LMPTM tried to do. After
all, parental rejection is a completely valid psychological trauma,
one that we know applies especially well to vampire motivations
(see Angelus), and could be used via FFL's establishment
of William as a momma's-boy. But I don't think it fit the character
very well, nor do I think it was necessary beyond trying to create
a parallel with Robin/Nikki and Buffy/Giles. It was like ME was
trying to wedge a square peg into a round hole: you can get it
to go in, but it will put stress on the opening and there will
be large gaps at the corners.
Or another example: mitichlorians, the stuff in The Phantom
Menace that indicated Force-ability. There really wasn't anything
wrong or incorrect about that idea, but it unnecessarily science'd
the spiritual theme of the Force. Likewise, there wasn't anything
inherently wrong with LMPTM; it was just unnecessarily
convoluting Spike/William's character. It's like Normal Again:
I can watch it and enjoy the hell out of it, but there's some
very intriguing stuff in there that I don't want to accept as
canon. LMPTM just has a lot more of it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Rejection and William Spike -- Rook, 05:58:13
The thing is, Rejection is the catalyst for every single important
moment Spike has ever had on the show, so I'm not clear on how
it can be said to not fit the character.
Becoming II - His fear that he's being rejected in favor of Angelus
leds to the alliance with Buffy.
Lover's Walk - Dru's rejection turns him from swaggering cool
guy into whiny crybaby guy.
FFL - Cecily/Society's rejection leads him to get vamped.
SR - Buffy's rejection leads to the AR which leads to his ensouling.
LMPTM - Rejection by his mother leads to his killing her, which
sets him on the path to adopting the Spike persona.
Spike is, and has always been, about not handling rejection well.
So to me it makes perfect sense (Even more sense that what were
shown in FFL) that the major catalyst for his change from William
into Spike (other than the whole demon thing) had to be an incredibly
traumatic rejection. And given his Mama's boy status, there's
really nothing else that would have fit.
-- Q, 17:59:31 06/17/03 Tue
Continuing where the premiere left off, this episode has the same
strengths and weaknesses as Welcome to the Hellmouth. Bad extra
acting, especially the "stoner" in the computer lab
scene with Cordy and Harmony was especially painful, as was the
low budget effects (bad "dusting" scenes) and score
music. Again, some cheese made it's way over from the movie with
the "heads up" line in the bronze, the way Luke was
taken care of, etc.
I also had a few problems reconciling this episode with the future
of the show. In a way, it is almost like the writers forget all
about the pilot when devising future continuity plots. One example
is the vampire Luke. It is obvious in this episode that he is
the main minion. Sure the Master is the leader, but Luke is obviously
number 2. Not Darla or anyone else. Luke. It refers to his bad-ass
history, and Barcelona in the 1800's. Yet, later in the ME universe,
we see MANY flashbacks, chock full of Darla, Drusilla, Spike,
Angel, the Master, etc. etc.... and NO Luke. If he was that bad
for that long, shouldn't he have shown up in later flashbacks?
But it's like he never even existed again. One line... "Barcelona,
18??, he caught me sleeping", really intrigues me. Wouldn't
it be cool to see a flashback to this and find out who the "he"
was? Holtz? Angel? Spike? Could be somebody fun.
I also have a problem with the death of Jesse. He is set up as
Xanders life long best friend. Yet, we NEVER hear of him again
after this episode. It should have a profound effect on Xander,
and should be brought up whenever the seriousness of the Hellmouth
is brought up, but later in the series we get more references
to Jenny Calender to bring out the seriousness of the situation.
Jesse is never mentioned again, which seems VERY bizarre to me!
Seeing how easily Anya's expiration was accepted, though, I guess
it makes sense!
I do love the lighting in this episode. Very dark, yet very colorful,
and it sets a perfect mood.
The mythology of the hellmouth and Sunnydaly is laid out in a
compelling way, and we are drawn ever deeper into our first major
arc-The escape of the Master.
The chemistry between Angel and Buffy is just BURNING and puts
EVERY other love interest (Riley, Spike and the little ones) to
I loved the "She did it, I'll be damned comment". So
a propos... He will be damned.
One of the strongest aspects of the first few seasons was the
music. I'm not talking about the score as much (It improved much
with C. Beck), but the rock song back grounds. Shivers are what
I got when the vampires marched up to the Bronze to Dashboard
Prophets "Ballad for Dead Friends". Perfect!!!
[> Re: The Harvest --
Sophist, 19:10:38 06/17/03 Tue
I also have a problem with the death of Jesse. He is set up
as Xanders life long best friend. Yet, we NEVER hear of him again
after this episode. It should have a profound effect on Xander
... Jesse is never mentioned again, which seems VERY bizarre to
me! Seeing how easily Anya's expiration was accepted, though,
I guess it makes sense!
I think it very much did have a profound effect on Xander. I think
we see this effect in his reaction to Angel and Spike.
Your comparison of Jesse's death to Anya's seems spot on to me.
It does make the series consistent on that score.
[> Re: The Harvest --
Silky, 06:10:05 06/18/03 Wed
What I found interesting was what Jesse said when he revealed
he'd been vamped (paraphrased) Don't be sorry - I feel strong
- like I'm connected to everything...
Almost exactly the same as what Holden said to Buffy in CwDP and
similar to what Spike told Buffy in FFL. Very consistent and more
of what Joss meant when he said back to the beginning (so he wasn't
just talking about Sunnydale High...hmmm)
As Glory said, "Fun, fun, fun."
The background music was strictly cheesey, horror movie stuff.
It got so much better later on in the series.
[> [> I think Xander
acted consistently -- Ray, 02:50:53 06/19/03 Thu
When Jesse died, Xander did the same thing he did when Joyce died.
He punched something, then collected himself. I always thought
of Xander as a deeply private person. He keeps his feelings to
himself. I think because he's insecure about feeling "weak."
He mentions Jenny because he wasn't close to her, so it doesn't
hurt him to remember her.
Or maybe Jesse is like Scott on 90210. He was the co-nerd with
David until David got cool. Then Scott died and was rarely mentioned
[> Continuity and Crosses
-- mamcu, 13:56:10 06/18/03 Wed
I agree about the continuity issues with Luke and Jesse. Also,
there's a really big deal at the beginning about the cross on
Buffy's neck driving Luke away--but it doesn't seem to have such
an effect later on. I remember that it burns Angel, but I don't
recall seeing any vamps run from it.
[> Re: The Harvest --
Malandanza, 08:59:14 06/19/03 Thu
"The chemistry between Angel and Buffy is just BURNING
and puts EVERY other love interest (Riley, Spike and the little
ones) to SERIOUS SHAME!"
I didn't see much chemistry between Angel and Buffy during the
first two episodes, but I recently rewatched When She Was Bad
and in the scene (in the weird dreams chapter) where Buffy first
drives Angel away, then turns to say "I missed you too,"
but is too late, there is more genuine emotion and passion than
a dozen of Spike's best "I am Heathcliff" scenes. So
while I agree that B/A does eventually put the other relationships
to shame, I don't agree that it was a great romance by The
Harvest. I'd certainly place Riley's "but she doesn't
love me" remark (and the Xander reaction shot as Riley immediately
begins to behave as if nothing is wrong with the relationship)
above any B/A chit chat in these first two episodes.
A few quick
thoughts on Help (general spoilers Buffy S7) -- Alison, 19:39:55
Apologies if this has been said before...I may regret this dashed
off post in the morning.
I remember that when "Help" first aired, quite a few
people didn't like it and felt that it simply repeated the "you
can't save 'em all" theme. But it occured to me today that
in the greater context of the season, it gives a lot of insight
into Buffy's emotional state. Her desperation to save one girl
from fate, paired with her guilt at the school mates she could
not save in Lessons, explains her emotional with drawl from the
potentials later in the season. Obviously, as with Cassie, she
fears that they will be victims to fate a she once was. Hence,
her irrational actions and detatched approach. Ofcourse, what
she forgot was that she defied fate both in Prophesy Girl and
in the Gift by returning from death, and that is exactly how she
saved the potentials- by defying the accepted system and empowering
[> In retrospect, you're
right, that does put a couple of things in more sensical perspective
-- AngelVSAngelus, 21:35:38 06/17/03 Tue
Before I had looked at the episode as a separate entity advocating
fatalism, and I thought that had contradicted what Buffy's previous
defiance of such predetermism had communicated.
Just another case of viewing the season as a whole before judgement,
I suppose. Though I can't say that saves Him for me, heh.
[> [> My problem with
'Help' -- Liam, 02:35:28 06/18/03 Wed
What I disliked about 'Help' was the fact that Buffy acted in
a grossly unprofessional manner in dealing with Cassie's case.
While I'm not a counsellor myself, I've worked with many; and
I found it quite incredulous that Buffy would accuse Cassie's
father, on his own doorstep, in the absence of any evidence, with
wanting to kill her, and that the father wouldn't sue the school
[> [> [> Schools in
Sunnydale -- Rook, 04:30:01 06/18/03 Wed
Operate in some kind of twilight zone where normal rules don't
really apply. Whether it's Snyder "Expelling Buffy"
(A power he doesn't have, expulsion is an executive power reserved
for a school board, requiring all kinds of due process to protect
the rights of the student), Willow's Substitute teaching stint
(Which was illegal on an epic scale), not to mention the more
mundane, plot related things like no one ever going to class or
visitors being allowed to walk around the school at will.
Anyhow, this is one of the more believable school related goofs
(Much more believable than Buffy keeping her job after the events
of "Him"...like RJ wouldn't have spread news of his
and Buffy's classroom activities all over the place.) - Cassie's
father is pretty wrapped up in his own problems, and to actually
make the effort involved to sue or create problems for Buffy would
probably cause all of his own problems to be dragged out into
the light, something he pretty obviously wants to avoid. As long
as they don't continue to press the issue, he's probably more
than willing to "live and let live".
[> [> [> [> I found
the R.J. thing believable -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:43:42 06/18/03
Earlier in the episode, we saw Principal Wood take Dawn's word
over that football player's as to what happened with the stair
pushing. Odds are he'd also take Buffy's word over R.J.'s (which
does make sense, since it appears R.J. was in frequent trouble
with Wood). Even if R.J. told everyone, Wood would probably discount
it, and, also, without his jacket, he loses his seeming coolness
and becomes much less believable.
And, even if you discount that, we do know that Wood gave Buffy
the counselling position so that he'd have a Slayer on campus.
Even if he did believe Buffy tried to seduce R.J., he might very
well be willing to overlook it.
S7(no spoilers just sharing) -- Andrea,
20:34:26 06/17/03 Tue
i just watched Showtime & Souless for the first time of course
and loved every second of each epand as a big Spuffy fan Loved
the last escene, im just so exited because even though im spoiled
for practically the entire season it still blows me away, and
Angelus that was something i've been wanting to see for a long
time so im pretty happy right now, and even if i hate him , connor
almost got me caring about him when he teared .
Buffy es la chimba , ojala este show nunca se acabara!!!!
[> btw has anyone read "the
Vampyre" by Jonh w Polidori?????' -- Andrea, 20:38:37
[> [> I just ordered
it last week - I'm looking forward to reading it! -- WickedBuffy,
20:48:16 06/17/03 Tue
You guys really,
really ought to read this. -- HonorH (the mad reccer), 23:15:23
My good friend Selena (as in Miss) recently wrote an amazing piece
of fanfic. I can't even describe this one to you except to say
it's about Darla and Connor and something that very well could
have been. Please do yourself a favor and read:
Haunting, Hunted Kind
[> Wow! fabulous fanfic.Thanks,HonorH!
-- jane, 03:52:47 06/18/03 Wed
[> Very terrific. Beautiful.
Pleasure to read -- Mackenzie, 11:05:01 06/18/03 Wed
thanks for sharing
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