June 2003 posts
The Deflation Effect: ME
ennui and the vacuum of S7 criticism -- cjl, 13:52:54 06/18/03
Wed
This is (sort of) a response to shadowkat's post below about negative
criticism of S7. However, rather than plunk my answer down in
the middle of an extended thread, I thought I'd bring it up to
the top, because the topic deserves serious consideration.
Getting straight to the point: I do want to post my misgivings
about S7. Since some people on this board seem to equate silence
with approval, I'd like to show that some of us are not sitting
back on our couches, sated by the wonderment that was S7, but
instead, are waiting for an opportunity to vent.
So why haven't I vented? There's plenty of room for constructive
criticism of S7. A solid, non-snarky post could conceivably engage
the board for weeks. (Heck, it's almost my obligation to do it.)
And yet, I can't summon up the energy to post. Possible explanations:
1. Nothing new to say on the topic.
Extremely difficult to find a fresh angle on the topics of inconsistency
in the overall S7 arc, the questionable characterizations of Giles,
Anya, Xander, Willow (and to a certain extent, Buffy and Spike).
Regurgitating old topics might lead to:
2. The fear of investing energy into a critique that would be
ignored.
I see a great deal of resistance on this board to the idea of
S7 as creative implosion. My not-so-subtle import of 3strikes'
admittedly borderline-raving critique from BC&S elicited almost
no response whatsoever. Not sure whether I want to spend days
crafting a post that would disappear within a few hours.
3. Sick and/or busy at work.
Nah. Not even I believe that one. It would take a case of bubonic
plague to stop me from posting if I really felt the need.
4. Grace period for post-series traumatic stress.
Am I overreacting to (what I perceive as) the crippling flaws
in S7 because there's no way to correct them in Season 8? (Maybe
I should wait a few months to see if these feelings recede, and
I can appreciate the strengths of S7.)
Well, maybe. But there's a darker explanation lying underneath,
one that I don't really want to consider:
5. If Mutant Enemy didn't care about keeping the story straight
in S7, why should I?
I know--unpleasant. This one hits to the core of an ATP poster.
Hour after hour of composing posts extolling the brilliance of
ME, the complexity of their metaphors, the way the writers have
been so deft in weaving multiple plotlines that reflect upon Buffy's
central journey (and vice versa). How can I come on the board
now and say I overestimated them? That the ending of the series
("Chosen" aside) was far LESS complex and philosophically
engaging than I anticipated?
"Well, what do you expect? It's just a TV show."
Really? Am I prepared to knock my overall assessment of BtVS down
from "televisual art" to "just a TV show"?
Can my psyche withstand such a deflation?
At the moment--no. Which brings us back around to the not posting.
Is it just me? Does anybody else feel this way?
--cjl, alone in a cold and dark place
[> Come into the light cjl!
-- ponygirl, 14:52:54 06/18/03 Wed
Feeling your pain, and the ennui. After some initial venting I've
found it difficult to find the desire to even really think about
the latter half of the season. I've watched Chosen twice and don't
really feel like seeing it again right now. I feel like I would
end up picking away at things and end up unravelling far more
than I'd want to of a series that I've devoted a lot of brain
cells to. Still I don't think I can select option #5 on your list,
for me I think this is not a case of ME not caring, but of turning
out to be made up of far more human-type creatures than
I had ever wanted to admit. Also part of my problem is that I
didn't have so many negative feelings while watching s7. The latter
half wasn't shaping up to be one of my favourites but a lot of
my distaste came after I realized Chosen was not going to address
the questions I had with the season.
Last night Showtime was being aired on a local station while Space
was showing DMP. I ended up flipping back and forth between the
two. It was an interesting comparison especially since DMP is
an episode I quite liked but wouldn't put in my top 10. Showtime
in the context of s7 I would rate as an average episode. Seen
next to DMP it looked really bad.
The first sequence after the credits for DMP is essentially scenes
of two people talking - Buffy getting her orientation from Manny.
However we go through the restaurant as this occurs, getting the
funny video, introducing several characters and getting the first
hints of the disappearing employee mystery. It's tight and it
moves.
Showtime on the other hand comes back after the credits to Dawn
and Kennedy talking. They discuss the situation in the house,
with the First, with arriving Slayers, plus some flirting and
a bit of Kennedy's past. They tell us all of this, there's no
showing, in fact there's no actual moving, they're both lying
down. It feels long. Very long. Later on in the Dawn/Andrew scene
I counted three places where the scene could have been cut - at
a certain point there was no longer any necessary info being conveyed
but the scene continued.
So was this an example of ME not caring? I prefer to think of
it as ME being sloppy. Whether it was because of the loss of the
best people to Firefly, Joss' having to spend more time with Angel,
Joss and Marti both having to deal with young babies we can only
speculate.
Ack, I must dash, but I must say that whatver failures I see in
the last half of s7 I do not feel it negates the series as a whole.
When I see how some of the episodes from seasons past that I paid
little attention to suddenly turn around and surprise me (see
the Fear Itself thread below) I feel the faith again.
Sorry for any mistakes in this post - no time to proofread (that
applies to all errors I've made in the past or any I will make
in the future!)
[> [> I watched "Showtime"
for the first time last night . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:05:58
06/18/03 Wed
And didn't have any of these problems. It didn't bother me that
there wasn't much visually going on since the dialouge was entertaining.
Also, a big point of the episode was showing the conditions of
the Summers' house and how the constant waiting was weighing on
them, so not much actual action until near the end is acceptable
(plus, if you notice, the Turok-Han attack occurs about 2/3 of
the way through the episode, which means the last 1/3 had a great
deal going on).
On the quality scale of Fair-Good-Very Good-Great-Excellent, I'd
give both "Doublemeat Palace" and "Showtime"
a Very Good.
Also, I don't think it helped Season 7 that the first half was
very, very good, while the second half wasn't quite as much. In
many previous seasons, I've found myself enjoying the second half
much more than the first half. In Season 7, it was the reverse,
which made the second half seem worse since it had a tough act
to follow, while previous seasons had the good act following the
less entertaining act.
[> [> [> What I find
interesting about Showtime -- Sophist, 16:40:59 06/18/03
Wed
I don't share ponygirl's concerns about pacing in Showtime, nor
do I think DP is comparable in terms of quality. However, I do
find something interesting about Showtime that I don't believe
anyone has addressed.
If you watch BoTN and Showtime together, their plot structure
involving the Turok-han, the Potentials' fear, and Buffy's triumph
is nearly identical to that with Dirty Girls through Touched (actually,
the first scene of EOD). I have to think this is intentional.
If so, what is the message we are to draw from the differences?
Those who think it's not intentional feel free to weigh in on
that also.
[> [> [> Re: Season
7 exigencies -- Abracapocus,
17:40:43 06/18/03 Wed
OK, this got waaaaaaaaay too long. Please forgive a de-lurker.
Finn Mac Cool said:
Also, I don't think it helped Season 7 that the first half
was very, very good, while the second half wasn't quite as much.
In many previous seasons, I've found myself enjoying the second
half much more than the first half. In Season 7, it was the reverse,
which made the second half seem worse since it had a tough act
to follow, while previous seasons had the good act following the
less entertaining act.
Season 7 was definitely very strong out of the gate--thank you
for stressing this. Most seasons, fans have complained at the
beginning because things seem to be starting slowly and without
clear direction (seasons 3-5, especially--all 3 of which I love
and am not criticizing). The fact that for season 7 we were given
such goodies to begin with made it that much harder when real-world
circumstances derailed the best-laid plans of Joss & ME--and they
made some self-defeating choices in the process in terms of logical
storytelling and character development.
After those first episodes, the storylines seemed to founder.
It didn't help that we also had long gaps between new episodes
at that point as well. In the middle third of the season not only
did the storytelling become muddled (IMHO), but we also had to
wait so long between instalments that when we came back to what
felt like yet another hour of treading water with the Potentials
Arriving and Buffy Steeling Herself and The First Doing Nothing
in Particular and Who is This Giles Person Anyway--well, it was
that much harder to take. Given the stellar characterizations
and emotional developments of "Lessons" through "Selfless",
to be brought into this dry, tense place where our heroes were
overwhelmed and not really talking to each other about things
that mattered--well, we were as frustrated and bewildered as the
characters were.
Strangely, it's all a bit easier to take when viewed consecutively,
without those long breaks (and, granted, with the advantage of
hindsight). I know I'm not alone in noticing that the storytelling
on Buffy over the course of a season can seem very different when
you're watching the episodes consecutively on FX or DVD--when
you don't have those gaps, and all that time to discuss various
elements and fret about what you are and are not getting from
the stories. Wasn't there an article on salon.com about this FX
effect? :) This observation holds just as true for season 7 as
it does for any of the other years.
I have been copying my season 7 tapes for a friend who missed
most of it, and have been discovering to my surprise that those
middle-third episodes are not as content-free as they felt the
first time around. I'm even finding that I hate Kennedy somewhat
less. :) Finn is also right that these episodes feel stifling
and boxed in because that's exactly what's happening to the characters:
our Scoobies are being inundated with strangers coming to live
with them in a life-or-death situation that may be the worst thing
they've ever faced, and which they keep telling each other may
be more than they can handle.
So the writers chose to take the stories and characters into that
place. I'm not saying it was the best choice available--but there
is a certain sense to it, and I'm not sure what I would have done
instead if I'd been in ME's shoes (so to speak).
The writers were given a very difficult situation as the season
developed, since the show's future was so uncertain. That dry
middle third was exactly when all the questions about "season
8 vs. spin-off" were hanging in the air. SMG didn't make
her decision until December; several proposals for a spin-off
were tried, but none bore fruit. Apparently, spin-offs featuring
both Faith and Willow were strongly considered, but both were
nixed by the actors.
In other words, the writers almost *had* to stall like that, since
it was so difficult to know how they would be able to resolve
anything, or where they could feasibly take the stories. Then,
when things *were* finally resolved--no season 8, and no spin-off
right away--they had to take what they had and not only try to
bring it all back into a coherent season arc, but finish the series
in a way that would satisfy as many people as possible, including
themselves. I would *not* have wanted to be in their shoes as
they tried to get from "First Date" to "Chosen".
There are many criticisms we can level at season 7. It could be
extremely frustrating to watch as it aired (at least for me),
what with those aforementioned long gaps, and with the decision
not to acknowledge most of the goings-on in LA (for those of us
who also watch "Angel"). And I add my "Amen"
to those who have protested the cavalier treatment of Anya's character
after all the possibilities that were opened up in "Selfless".
It became even more difficult to accept the Buffy storytelling
as it stood once we learned that this was The.Last.Buffy.Ever.
Every hour that had to deal with the nameless Potentials (or,
for some fans, the Buffy-Spike angst) instead of our beloved Core
Four, and every hour that had to deal with newer characters like
Andrew, Principle Wood, and Caleb (all of whom I loved, btw, albeit
with some mixed feelings), could feel like a theft from what we
really wanted from the end of the show. We wanted our Scoobies
back, and there was almost no way to give them to us while still
dealing with the plot elements that had been established with
the decision to gather the Potentials in Sunnydale.
This was an unwieldy decision indeed. They were going to have
to show all these girls crowding into the house, but there was
no way for us to get to know more than a handful of them, and
even those few whose names we knew we didn't get to know very
well beyond how they respond to dangerous, uncertain, crowded
situations (not very well, but would I have done any better, especially
at age 15 or so?). So the writers gave themselves some rather
challenging material, if I may make a rather grand understatement.
To make matters more difficult, we spent much of this part of
the season from Buffy's point of view, and Buffy was working hard
to distance herselves from these girls so she wouldn't feel it
so much when she had to watch them die--so, as Buffy was distant,
so were we. It was hard to care about these girls when most of
them were, perforce, only extras. And when we knew, along with
Buffy, that we were going to see many of them die. They became
the girls against whom Joss was reacting when he first imagined
Buffy: the helpless girls who go into dark places and get jumped
by the bad guy.
I fervently agree with all the people who have said that trying
to fake us out about Giles ("is he the First?") was
a *very* bad idea. Not only did it contribute to the major feeling
of fan-theft, but it just didn't make sense. It wasted time, and
required contortions of character logic to maintain over so many
episodes. Also frustrating were the few times when Giles' absence
was not explained--or worse, not even referred to. I kept wondering
why nobody said a word in "Get It Done" about how ticked
Giles would be that he missed out on this huge Slayer origins
ritual, for instance.
There is a lot more we can, have, and will say. I didn't mind
the introduction of the Scythe, since Joss had already established
its presence for Fray and it was good to get that into "canon"
on the show. I also thought it was a very cool prop, and I liked
that wonderful singing sound it made. :) It was harder to take
things like the Shadowmen being clearly Swahili (speaking Swahili,
at least, which sets them culturally much later and more sophisticated
than the early-human appearance of the First Slayer when she was
still The Primitive), and having them call the Slayer the Guardian
of the Hellmouth (huh? the Sunnydale hellmouth? all hellmouths,
since it's not the only one? and if the Sunnydale hellmouth was
so important, why didn't the Council know about it? etc. etc.
etc.); and then we got the extremely rushed introduction of the
Guardian. This kind of thing might work in a comic book (no offense!
the graphic novel is an important literary form), but in the context
of Buffy's 7-year storyline it was very jarring. Not to mention
uncomfortable, with the implication that those bad African men
had to be balanced by good, very white women (assuming other Guardians
were European...?). Good white women who hid underground and did
nothing for thousands of years, because this particular fight
would be so important...? There was too much to explain, and it
felt like it hadn't been properly thought through. It can make
a Buffy fan grumpy when she feels like she's supposed to just
sit back and accept something. Man, that's what I got from Christ
Carter--not from Joss! :)
There is a lot to praise in season 7, too, and I for one was happy
with "Chosen". For me, it did quite possibly the best
job it could have done under the circumstances to bring the series
to a close; and I love the resolution of the impossible quandary
Buffy has always faced as the Chosen One. Whole essays have been
and will be written, I'm sure, on Joss' subversion of his own
original paradigm of "one girl in all the world", and
for his deliberate exposure of it as sexist and exploitative from
its beginning. Now Buffy does not have to bear her destiny alone--she
does not have to be The Law--and all the stresses that warped
her over the years have fallen away. Now she just has "normal"
stresses, like figuring out who she is and what she wants and
how to make a living. And fighting demons and maybe helping with
all the newly activated Slayers. You know--girly stuff. Human
stuff. And some super-human stuff.
I know in my own case, one reason I don't post very often is that
I tend to get to this point in a far-too-long post, realize I'm
rambling and that I don't have time to edit it into a more thoughtfully
constructed statement--and I give up and cancel the whole thing.
:)
ME didn't have that option. They had to keep churning out the
episodes.
So there's that.
For those of you who got to the end of this--thanks!
--Abracapocus
"Would I knew a little more,
or very much less."
--Dorothy Parker
[> [> [> [> Re:
Swahili -- Abracapocus,
17:57:39 06/18/03 Wed
--just to clarify my comment about the Shadowmen speaking Swahili:
Swahili is an ancient East African trade language. Modern Swahili
carries significant Arabic and Arabic-derived vocabulary, reflecting
interactions with Arab traders and with Islam (i.e., the Arabic
influence is relatively new, from the last 1,000-1,500 years).
The Shadowmen spoke modern Swahili, with Arabic words interspersed
(I'm forgetting the examples off the top of my head, sorry). So,
either the Shadowmen have learned modern Swahili but not English,
or the Slayer was created in, oh, 1100 A.D.--a couple hundred
years after Aud met D'Hoffryn and became Anyanka.
It's a dumb quibble, I suppose, but it bugged me. :) They could
have made the Shadowmen Yoruba, for instance (from southwestern
Nigeria, whose language and religion play big roles in the Caribbean
and in Brazil), and dressed them in traditional clothes, and they
would have seemed more appropriately ancient. Maybe.
But whatever--I need to quit doing this! Wheeeeee!!!!!!!
[> [> [> [> That's
how I saw Season 7 too -- curious, 18:24:57 06/18/03 Wed
I liked all your points. The season was much easier to "see"
on video after we knew where it was going.
ME did seem to be spinning its wheels in the middle due to practical
matters - but I think JE said in the Succubus Club interview -
that Buffy's emotional arc was laid out well ahead of time. I
may not have liked the way all the details didn't get addressed
but Buffy's emotional arc and her resolution with Spike worked
perfectly for me.
As for the Swahili and the Shadowmen - I think you just have to
chalk it up to a detail that they fudged. The very black men and
the very white woman thing was a little goofy too. Maybe they
hurried these aspects to fit the overall message they were going
for. hmmm....
[> [> [> [> Wow,
terrific analysis! Please post more often! -- Scroll, 20:33:18
06/18/03 Wed
Thing is, I just finished posting above that, while I do love
Season 7, I felt it didn't live up to its full potential (no pun
intended). But you've defended the ME writers so logically and
eloquently that I'm feeling rather ashamed of my previous post
now! As if I haven't been truly appreciative of the behind-the-scenes,
production-type difficulties that come with networks and actors
and contracts, etc., and how all of it affects the show itself.
So thanks for that : )
The rest of your post was great too, and I agree with a lot of
it. (Heh, smartness by association!) Totally agree with your Anya
and Giles points. Would also like to add that throwing Angel in
as deus ex machina felt terribly disrespectful to the character
and Angel. IMHO -- but then I'm more of an Angel
fan than a Buffy fan.
And I very much agree about the use of the Guardian, and the ultimate
"evilness", or at least badness, of the Shadowmen/Council
of Watchers. The Guardian had the potential (in hindsight) of
being a fascinating character and a great addition to the Buffyverse
mythology. But the way she was thrown in so last minute didn't
work in Joss' favour. As for the Shadowmen/Council, I agree that
they were men and that their patriarchy was harsh and cruel and
unfair to the First Slayer and all subsequent slayers. But their
reasons for there being "only one" were never addressed,
we don't know why there's only ever been just one, why
Buffy's answer in "Chosen" (as emotionally satisfying
as it was) is the correct and logical one. I had high hopes that
Joss would address the Slayer mythos, and while I loved what we
got, I wish there'd been more... Okay, now I'm whining again,
so to get back on topic --
Maybe once I'm sufficiently recovered from post-series traumatic
syndrome, and I get around to re-watching the entire season in
one go, I'll better understand/appreciate the middle eps -- which
tend to blur together and make me tap my foot impatiently. I think
you might very well be right that it all fits together much more
seamlessly once we can see it without weeks of re-runs. And seeing
the plot arc flow smoothly will probably help me to better understand
Buffy's emotional state. I think Sophist has a good point below
that the key to S7 is Buffy's character development. Now, I'm
one of those fans who sees other characters as independent of
Buffy, of having stories interesting enough for Buffy to be sidelined
once in a while so that the sidekicks can get the spotlight. But
I'll probably be more emotionally satisfied with S7 once I hinge
my understanding on Buffy.
So thanks for the uplifting post, I'm feeling much better now!
I do hope you'll post more, you have a lot of interesting stuff
to say (and there's no such thing as a post that's too long, not
on this board!) and you say it very well : )
[> [> [> [> Excellent
analysis. I doubt I could've been that concise. -- cjl, 21:20:34
06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> welcome,
abracapocus! well said! (long? for here? ha!) -- anom, 22:25:49
06/18/03 Wed
I agree w/a lot of what you said, & your points about the demands
real life placed on the show's creators help put things in perspective.
I wouldn't call the Shadowmen "bad"; they were doing
what they knew how to do in a situation where they & the whole
human race were under threat. But they were limited in their thinking;
possibly their fear of what a human subjected to what they did
to the 1st Slayer & at the same time embued w/so much power might
turn out to be--& might do to them--made them feel the need to
keep tight control over her. I also don't have a problem w/their
being black per se; I thought this (as with the 1st Slayer) reflected
the Slayer's origin in a time before any humans had left Africa
& developed lighter skin colors. But the Guardian's being white
doesn't seem to fit in w/this...although I suppose the individual
Guardian we saw didn't necessarily have to have been born as long
ago as the Shadowmen & the 1st Slayer. But her speaking modern
English (after centuries of waiting around?) was as incongruous
as the Shadowmen's speaking modern Swahili.
I'm more bothered by not having had any indication that the "Essence
of the Scythe" could be used the way it was. I'm glad it
was--I loved the solution of sharing the power--but I would've
wanted more of an explanation of how Buffy got from finding the
Scythe to realizing it could be used for more than "killing
strong bodies 3 ways." Did Willow click on the link w/the
"gulpy sound" symbol & find out something about this
"Essence"? Did she overcome her fear & do a spell that
revealed the Scythe's other power? Did Buffy sense something about
the Scythe beyond that it belonged to her? Did she put it together
from the fact that Faith felt the same way, meaning that it could
"belong" to >1 Slayer at the same time? As far as
we saw, she came up w/the idea out of nowhere.
I didn't dislike this season as much as some other posters (loved
Baseball Potential!), but I still have my problems w/it.
[> [> [> [> Good
analysis...would largely agree. Not that long at all. -- s'kat,
09:48:08 06/19/03 Thu
[> [> A mite more light.
-- OnM, 20:54:46 06/18/03 Wed
Currently I'm about 12 pages into my 'Thoughts On' Chosen,
and am only about half way there. So, more details will have to
come out when this epic finally gets posted this weekend, but
you already know that I'm a big fan of season 7, so I can only
commiserate in a purely theoretical fashion.
I've been watching the S4 DVD's extensively over the last week,
and have been pleased to find that not only was my positive opinion
at the time holding up, but that the season was even better than
I remembered it. All I can say is at the time, I was in a tiny
minority-- the vast number of BtVS fans seems to hate most of
the year, and cited many of the same misgivings you are citing
re: S7.
Your feeling are your feelings, they can't be argued with, but
they can change over time. I want to close by quoting ponygirl:
*** I must say that whatver failures I see in the last half
of s7 I do not feel it negates the series as a whole. ***
I confess that the one thing I find hard to accept is that even
if the season truly did not succeed as it might have (I disagree,
but this is for the sake of argument, OK?) that in no way shape
or form diminishes the series as a whole. (I find this same
mode of thinking being applied to the X-Files, which truly did
have mediocre final seasons. The preceding ones were still brilliant,
nothing changes that.) If one adjusts one's thinking so that near-perfection
at all times is not a requirement for a happy life (or the appreciation
of art), one's life gets much better.
It sucks being a perfectionist-- I know from personal experience.
Part of my desire to improve myself over the last decade has been
to gradually let go of that kind of obsessional thinking and try
to see the positive aspects of whatever and not dwell on the negative.
(As soon as I succeed in this effort, I'll let you know.)
It's late + I've been writing most of the day = tired. So sorry
if this is a little incoherent, but hope you get the gist.
:-)
[> Re: The Deflation Effect:
ME ennui and the vacuum of S7 criticism -- BMF (finally delurking),
14:57:06 06/18/03 Wed
I've been reading this site for the past few months (took me awhile
to find it), and you've struck on every conceivable excuse that
I used to not work up the nerve/energy/creative juices to start
posting.
It's your last reason, "If Mutant Enemy didn't care about
keeping the story straight in S7, why should I?", that made
me finally post, however. I long wanted to put Buffy up on a pedestal
and call it "art", thereby making it into something
admirable and worth discussing critically as one would, say, a
novel. But I couldn't do it, largely due to a small but insistent
feeling that, "This is just television, it isn't worth that
kind of thought and effort." Rediculous, maybe, as I was
already undertaking critical thoughts, but highly effective. I
never bothered trying to post because I was too distracted by
the literal reality of the show to accept its own reality enough
that I would want to seriously discuss it.
Obviously, most other people who read this will not share directly
in my problem (you've posted before and often, right?), but the
fact remains that much of season 7 really did just feel like "television",
not "art". Personally, I'm with whoever said that everything
after first date was formulaic, which is what prevents television
from being treated as "art". Art, at least the kind
that people willfully and critically discuss, does not fall into
formula, does not repeat itself; it aims to be something unique
at every turn. I, at least, had come to expect nothing less from
Buffy, and now feel compelled to post because it fell below those
standards, fell into what had prevented me from posting in the
first place.
Maybe this helps, maybe it doesn't, but I hope it sheds some light
on why people feel compelled to critically discuss anything.
-BMF, happy at finally posting
[> [> Art... -- Rook,
17:47:52 06/18/03 Wed
>>Art, at least the kind that people willfully and >>critically
discuss
And I see people willfully and critically discussing it. So by
your definition it's art.
>>but the fact remains that much of season 7 really did
>>just feel like "television", not "art".
And that's not a "fact". It's still just an opinion.
[> [> Glad you're delurking!
-- Scroll, 19:45:39 06/18/03 Wed
You're pretty brave, jumping in to a discussion such as this for
your first post! But I do think you have a good point (though
I don't entirely agree with you) about how parts of Season 7 have
seemed "formulaic". Now, I don't agree with this assessment
in the sense that I think Joss is original enough in his final
feminist message via "Chosen" to not be formulaic. However,
I do believe Joss had that message he needed to get out. And in
the process of trying to get that message out, lots of artistry
-- "artistic" being storylines more smoothly paced or
written or, heck, written at all -- was lost in the process.
I've loved Buffy for seven seasons now, and it's never
been "just" television for me. But I won't deny that
(IMHO!) Season 7 wasn't as good as I'd hoped for. Things fell
through and I was kinda disappointed. Not entirely! Cuz there's
lots to love about S7. But yeah, lots of things character- and
plot-wise didn't work out, and it was fairly obvious. Generous
amount of spackling was needed before this season made sense in
my head.
Before anyone flames me, I'd like to add that I really
hate admitting all this, because I have touted for years now that
Buffy is the best damn show in the world, revolutionary
and artistic, and I hate the fact that I don't love it
as much as I used to. Only my personal feelings though. I know
lots of people love this season. Anyway, I've had my say. Hope
that wasn't too ranty :)
[> [> [> On Joss's
message -- BMF, 09:25:30 06/19/03 Thu
Thanks for the vote of confidence! I should clarify that I never
really thought Buffy was just television myself, either. There
was a part of me that did, a highly realist part, and whenever
I started giving serious attention to Buffy, that part would somehow
seep into my train of thought, keeping me from really going deeply
into it. Now that the show is over, and I can look back at it
as a complete work, that part of my train of thought has weakened
because I can now clearly say to myself, having seen the whole
work, that Buffy really was something special and deserving of
serious consideration.
I, too, found Joss's message to be the redeeming part of S7. I'm
not talking about the feminist message, though. What I was fascinated
by was his emphasis on choice, on the need to take control of
one's situation through creativity and making unique, decisive
choices.
What I loved most about Buffy was the portrayal of loneliness
brought on by not choosing to do something about it. I was a high-school
geek (actually, I'm still not that far removed from being one),
so I empathized with the ways in which the characters, particularly
Buffy and Willow, created their own loneliness by refusing to
break free from their accepted roles. In other words, the outcast
mentality that they demonstrated was brought on through their
acceptance of externally defined roles. When Buffy simply threw
that role out the window, well, I could have stood up and cheered.
In my experience, that kind of redefinition is the most difficult
thing to do in life; I've been struggling to do it for the past
couple of years with limited success. So seeing it occur on screen,
the way it did, made the season for me: I loved "Chosen",
and thought it was a great way to end the show because it resolved
Buffy's choice issues and suggested a path for Willow to choose.
A perfect resolution, as far as I'm concerned. The way it unfolded
was far from perfect, but the end result was excellent.
[> Criticize away...
-- Caroline, 15:12:59 06/18/03 Wed
I haven't read the posts yet that you refer to but I have to disagree
about the amount of criticism. There's been a lot in my view on
the board. (Heck, I've made quite a few myself - ask everyone
at Vancouver! I spent most of Saturday morning talking about my
problems with S7 and Chosen!).
But having concerns and criticisms about the show does not prevent
me from being very well-satisfied with the season as a whole.
I have huge problems with the season 4 arc as well as some plots
in s6 but they contain eps that are standout episodes for me and
I still love those seasons, despite their flaws.
Part of the reason that I stayed away from the board for a little
while was just the fact that in many ways I've needed the time
to mourn and process and digest the ending of the show. Many threads
were critical and I didn't agree with a lot of the criticisms
made. People have every right to make those criticisms, just as
I had the right to disagree and want to not read the board for
a while. Another reason I stayed away for a while is that I was
sick of talking about Spike! Yes, I love Spike, just as much as
I love Cordy, Anya, Tara and the core 4. But that does not mean
I want to talk about him all the time! Obviously other people
did want to continue talking about Spike (as is their right!)
so rather than whining about it or being upset, I took a break
to readjust my attitude and came back in a much better frame of
mind! People don't always post what I want! (I think that was
a good attempt at overcoming primary narcissism, don't you?)
When I came back to the board I found a post by Darby that was
again critical. I just sucked it up and got back to defending
Chosen and I was cool with that - c'est la vie and all that.
Usually in a situation where I don't agree with what someone is
saying, I will come up with a post that communicates my views
and hope to get some response. I haven't had the time for long,
detailed posts lately - travel, illness and the press of work
have all played a factor. This is my first longer post in a quite
a while!
I have a preference for posts that are analytical, logical, considered,
well thought-out and constructed - just the stuff this board specializes
in!! I cannot understand how I could be offended or concerned
by a post that fits these criteria even if I vehemently disagree
with the writer's opinion on the show.
So, criticize away. Can't wait to read. I'll even start you off:
Giles - they might have been trying to show us that Giles was
distant and scared because of his responsibilities to the potentials
and ending of the Watchers Council but it would've been nice for
ME to show, not tell. Also, the fake-out about Giles being FE
was lame and they didn't 'service' that story well.
The potentials could've been introduced later in the season and
still fit in with the whole masculine/feminine power deal going
on. And it would've left more room to explore Xander/Anya and
Willow, which I felt where underexplored.
I shake my head at the characterization of Anya post-Selfless.
She was reduced to being a nympho 'unable to give it away' when
Selfless promised so much. It wasn't until the end of the season
that I saw the Anya from Selfless back again.
The core four standing in the high school facing each other in
Chosen would've been so much more poignant if there had been more
thought gone into their separation in the first place earlier
in the season.
The whole scythe/amulet things felt too plot device-y and the
intro of the amulet really smelled of deus ex machina.
In short, I felt like after a great start, the middle of the season
went kablooey and only picked up near the end. I have a whole
bunch of other stuff which I try to post later but this will do
for now - must return to work!
[> [> The Anya thing
would be a problem . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:13:56 06/18/03
Wed
. . . if it weren't for her small amount of screen presence. It's
hard to get much into the "Selfless" style issues when
you give her, maximum, five minutes an episode. Yes, Anya did
sorta regress to her, as you call it, "nympho" character
later in Season 7, but, as that wasn't the focus of a great deal
of time, I have no problem with it. Plus, it's not like the extremely-sex-hungry,
speaking-before-thinking part of her went away just because she
got an episode that delved deeply into her issues, so at least
it wasn't out of character.
[> [> [> Re: The Anya
thing would be a problem . . . -- Sophist, 16:47:06 06/18/03
Wed
I thought that Anya after Selfless was quite comparable to Cordy
in S3 after Lover's Walk. In fact, I like the ending they gave
Anya much better than the one they gave Cordy (in The Prom, not
on AtS).
[> Vent All You Want
-- Rina, 15:36:54 06/18/03 Wed
Hey, vent all you want. Don't expect all of us to agree. Just
as I'm sure you don't agree with those who enjoyed Season 7.
[> Mike is better than Joel
-- Rook, 17:24:12 06/18/03 Wed
And...
TPM was a good movie.
There is no God.
T:NG was better than TOS.
The AR was needed character devolpment for Spike.
Villains - Grave wasn't cliche.
Potato is right Potahto is wrong.
And Chosen, and the rest of S7, were fine. Personally I'd rank
it 4th among the seasons, ahead of S1, 6 and 4, behind 3, 5 and
2. But I guess you don't see it that way. But it doesn't matter.
You see what you see, I see what I see. What's the point of debating
the subjective merits of entertainment? Or the subjective merits
of anything for that matter?
I don't know either.
[> [> What's TPM?
-- Finn Mac Cool, 17:26:50 06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> The Phantom
Menace? -- I think, 17:31:25 06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> Yup
-- Rook, 17:42:12 06/18/03 Wed
[> I'm happy to goad you
out of your ennui, cjl -- Sophist, approaching with cattle
prod, 17:34:30 06/18/03 Wed
"There is no cause for alarm. Actually, there is cause for
alarm. It just won't do any good." Just thought I'd try to
tie this in to the episode we're supposed to be discussing this
week, but aren't.
Let me explain what I liked about S7. That should give you and
others plenty of opportunity for piling on.
My fundamental view of the show is that of manwitch: we are to
see ourselves as Buffy. She is the centerpiece of the show and
should be our primary interest.
I don't carry this so far as to say that hers is the only
lens through which we watch, just that it is the primary
one.
The important things to Buffy in S1-3 were family and friends.
This is typical of high school kids, though family is perhaps
less overtly important than it was to Buffy. In any case, I saw
S1-3 as Buffy-centered, but with Giles, Joyce, Xander and Willow
as the important supporting characters. Angel was important at
times, Cordy and Oz were on the periphery and Faith was a foil.
Nobody has to agree with this view. If you saw Faith as a fascinating
character in her own right, that's fine. I'm just explaining how
I saw it.
Based on my own experience after high school, and what I'm watching
my older daughter go through right now, life after high school
is different. We gradually lose our high school friends. Family
becomes less important and significant others more important.
Given this perspective, the natural sequence is for the significant
other to become more central to Buffy's story and the high school
friends less so. Girlfriends of the friends like Anya and Tara
never were all that important. (They were important to Xander
and Willow, and I cared about them. But Buffy related to them
as you might relate to your best friend's spouse; not the same.)
S4-7 have therefore been heavily influenced by Buffy's relationship
to Spike. Lots of people don't like this. Either they don't like
Spike or they maintained an interest in Giles or Xander or Willow
that they wanted explored more. I think, though, that ME was very
realistic in recognizing that this doesn't happen. That's because
it didn't happen that way in my life; if you held on to your high
school friends till you were 40, you no doubt disagree.
Some of the criticisms I've seen about S7 don't bother me precisely
because I think less screen time for certain characters was justified
by the life progression ME was showing us. It helps, of course,
that I like Spike very much, but even that's not critical as long
as I'm seeing the world through Buffy's eyes.
Now, as you well know, I find Willow a fascinating character.
I would love to see more about her, and I'd love even more a spinoff
focused on her. But that doesn't affect my enjoyment of S7 because,
for me, it remains Buffy's story.
For me, then, the only real issue was whether I understood and
approved of Buffy's development in S7. I have to say that manwitch
called this in advance. I think Chosen played out exactly as he
predicted. I don't see how anyone could object to that message,
though I suppose some do. I found it uplifting.
I have no doubt there are technical issues to discuss about the
execution of S7 and individual eps. But the emotional tone of
the season, which seems to bother some people, felt just right
to me.
[> [> Re: I'm happy to
goad you out of your ennui, cjl -- Alison, 17:58:44 06/18/03
Wed
I really enjoyed season 7. That is, for the most part I liked
what I saw on screen. My only problems lie in what wasn't. IMO
ME did manage to "lose" the arcs of a great deal of
their supporting characters...whereas in earlier seasons screen
time was balanced, it really wasn't in this one. However, I don't
regret even a tiny bit that was given to Spike's developement-
I adored every moment he was on screen. Also...I had hoped there
would be more exploration of the dark side of the slayer power,
how the first slayer and the first are connected- I had the feeling
ME was heading somewhere epic with it...and it was not all that
I had hoped. I did love what they did do though...I loved Chosen
and the resolution of the potentials and the First. Side note
here...I have a theory season 7 is supposed to encompass Buffy's
journey in seasons 1-6...so the idea that evil didn't defeat her,
but it didn't go away...I liked it..anyway, thats another post.
Season 7 was an excellent season- but it had the potential to
be bigger, better, than just an excellent season of Buffy..it
could have been THE greatest season ever...it had great concepts
behind it and great emotional arcs to delve into.
[> [> Hey--easy with
the cattle prod there, bucko. -- cjl, 21:12:42 06/18/03
Wed
"Based on my own experience after high school, and what I'm
watching my older daughter go through right now, life after high
school is different. We gradually lose our high school friends.
Family becomes less important and significant others more important.
Given this perspective, the natural sequence is for the significant
other to become more central to Buffy's story and the high school
friends less so."
Ordinarily, I would agree with this assessment. But Xander was
an integral part of the Summers household at the start of S7,
and Willow's return from England was hotly anticipated. (Is she
still evil? Has she got the magic thing under control? Still gay?)
Giles told Willow to head back to the 'Dale (even before she was
ready) because the Big Evil was brewing and Buffy would need all
of her resources to beat it.
In other words, BtVS was not your typical tale of high school
friends slowly drifting away from each other after graduation.
If Joss DID write the story that way, I would have reluctantly
accepted it. Let's say that somewhere in S5, they ran out of plotlines
for Nic Brendon (no wisecracks please), and Xander either took
a construction job in Denver or died in The Gift. Fine--I'd be
upset, but it's a valid artistic choice. Or, say, Willow left
Sunnydale after S3 to study at Oxford. That happens. Friends rarely
go the same colleges, and they do tend to drift away.
But Joss, very consciously, kept the Scoobs together for the duration--they
were a FAMILY. He went through hoops to get Anthony Stewart Head
back for S7, because he felt Giles was necessary for the group
dynamic.
I find it irritating that Joss and ME went through so much trouble
to bring the Core Four into Buffy's young adulthood as a unit--and
then didn't bother to make sure all their individual stories were
treated with care.
[> [> [> When you've
bowed, you leave the crowd -- Sophist, 08:43:59 06/19/03
Thu
In other words, BtVS was not your typical tale of high school
friends slowly drifting away from each other after graduation.
If Joss DID write the story that way, I would have reluctantly
accepted it. Let's say that somewhere in S5, they ran out of plotlines
for Nic Brendon (no wisecracks please), and Xander either took
a construction job in Denver or died in The Gift. Fine--I'd be
upset, but it's a valid artistic choice. Or, say, Willow left
Sunnydale after S3 to study at Oxford. That happens. Friends rarely
go the same colleges, and they do tend to drift away.
They didn't need to make Xander and Willow leave. Buffy did. She
left family and friends behind in The Gift.
Her friends dragged her back. She was, naturally enough, depressed
and resentful. In addition, her friends had problems of their
own that would have strained almost any friendship. The process
has begun.
At the beginning of S7, she has reached a tentative accomodation
with her friends. Spike is, she thinks, gone. Even when Spike
returns, his behavior is odd and she has lingering issues from
S6. This leaves plenty of opportunity to focus on X and W in early
S7, and that, in fact, is what we saw.
But then 2 important things change. First, at the end of Sleeper,
Buffy realizes she still has feelings for Spike: "I believe
in you." Then, at the beginning of the very next episode
(BoTN), her "father" shows up and says, in effect, "You
need to take over the family business right now. Oh yeah, and
I'm here to see that you run it right."
This is the point where we reach the transition that I mentioned.
Buffy has little time for her old high school friends. She is
re-connecting with her lover and she has new job responsibilities
that she could never have foreseen. This is the point in life
when we begin to drift away from our high school friends.
I see the portrayal of Buffy in the second half of S7 as very
realistic in this metaphorical sense. Does it disappoint those
who wanted other stories told? I'm sure it does. By the same token,
I was very disappointed that S6 chose not to tell a story of Spike's
redemption without the need for a soul. I still think that would
have been more interesting. But both my complaint and the ones
I've seen here are really side issues because they don't involve
us directly in Buffy's journey. They are diversions away from
Buffy's journey. It's all about the journey (further proof that
ATLTR).
[> [> [> [> Inheriting
the family business (and dealing with the employees) -- cjl,
09:29:41 06/19/03 Thu
Interesting....
This is a possible explanation for Giles' wonkiness during the
second half of S7--he's like the retired CEO of a corporation
watching his son or daughter ruin the business, or Lear raving
on the parapet. Not sure if I buy this version of Rupert Giles,
but it's worth considering.
As for the whole "drift" theory, I'm simply not buying
it as an excuse to neglect the W/X storylines. There was no physical
separation between Buffy, Willow and Xander. X/W were practically
living in the Summers house, and they were key (no pun intended)
employees in the "family business." (Example: B/X/W
were telepathically discussing strategy in "Showtime.")
And on the emotional side....
I think it was made quite clear that Buffy detached herself from
friends and family not because she was "re-connecting with
her lover and [dealing with] new job responsibilities" (although
that was part of it), but because she loved them so much that
she couldn't bear to face the guilt if her leadership got them
hurt or killed. Once Spike gave her The Speech in "Touched,"
and she and Faith had their "hot chicks with superpowers"
conversation in "End of Days," she came out of her emotional
isolation and reconnected in that old Scooby way.
There was no indication at the end of Chosen that B/X/W are splitting
up at any time in the near future. Yes, Dad (Giles) might have
gone back to England in the never-to-be Season 8, but we probably
would have had Buffy searching out new Slayers, Xander as loyal
lieutenant, Willow as Guardian/sage wizard, and Dawn as junior
watcher. La plus ca change, la plus c'est la meme chose. Evolution,
not separation.
[> [> poking and prodding
-- ponygirl, 22:55:36 06/18/03 Wed
I agree that s7 is primarily about Buffy's development, however
I had a great deal of difficulty connecting to her as a character
after the Potentials and Giles arrived. I believe that this was
done deliberately for three reasons:
1. To show Buffy's disconnect from her own emotions and how the
leadership style she had adopted was affecting her negatively.
We weren't meant to be comfortable with General Buffy and I think
the undercutting of her words in Potential, and the literal cutting
away from her during a speech in Storyteller underscores this.
2. We needed to have some understanding of why the Scoobies and
the Potentials would turn on her. It was a very fine line to walk
- since none of the characters could be so right or so wrong that
we wouldn't still sympathize with them we had to see from multiple
points of view, which may have diminished our connections with
all of them.
3. To set up Touched as the emotional turning point of the season.
I think that a lot of what was witheld before in terms of Buffy's
emotions was done so that Touched would have a greater impact.
This was the episode that set up the finale - after Touched Buffy's
whole leadership style and attitude changed completely. In EoD
she was able to talk to other characters, she was more open emotionally.
Touched also gave us the problem and solution of Chosen - Buffy
doesn't want to be the one, she can't simply give up who she is,
but she realizes that she doesn't have to be alone. Her asking
to be held, after a season of fearing weakness and depending only
on herself, after a season dealing with a villian who cannot be
touched, is the turning point for her.
Or is it? See I wanted more. Not wild Spuffy loving by any means,
but more of what Buffy was feeling. She admits that she had cut
herself off from the Potentials and from everyone. The admission
is great but don't we need to hear the why? Something beyond being
the Slayer, some of those deep issues that were touched on in
CwDP. Buffy explained to Angel that she didn't know who she was
yet, but I think she could have given us a few of the ingredients
of her cookie mix. Just something to let us know why it was so
hard but incredibly important for Buffy to reach out. I have a
pretty good idea but after all this time I wanted to hear it from
her.
I may be wrong but I feel that if Touched didn't quite hit you
in the right way emotionally and intellectually it was
hard to appreciate what the season was trying to do (and I'm leaving
aside some major problems with the plot). I too found Chosen's
message uplifting and something I can completely agree with, but
for me the emotional tone was off. I never found my way back to
Buffy like I should have. But I'm willing to accept that this
could just be me. :)
[> [> [> I think you've
identified the issue -- Sophist, 09:01:33 06/19/03 Thu
It was a very fine line to walk - since none of the characters
could be so right or so wrong that we wouldn't still sympathize
with them we had to see from multiple points of view, which may
have diminished our connections with all of them.
Exactly right. Despite the criticism of "General Buffy",
the issues were not that simple. There was a great deal of justification
in what she did. At the same time, there was a great deal of justification
in the reactions of Xander and Willow (not so much in Anya or
the Potentials).
I also think you're exactly right that Touched was supposed to
set the emotional tone. I loved it. If someone else didn't, I
can certainly see how that would be a problem. As I've indicated
above, I was viewing the season through a B/S lens, not a B/W/X
lens. That may well explain why I liked S7 so much more than some
others.
[> [> [> [> Which
is why it's strange that I didn't enjoy it more -- ponygirl,
11:46:52 06/19/03 Thu
I'll admit that I was viewing a lot of this season and s6 through
a B/S lens. For me it's the most interesting relationship ME has
ever done, so I was surprised that Touched felt off for me emotionally.
I wanted the relationship explored more, along the lines of the
conversations/confrontations in NLM. Even there Buffy was quick
to turn the direction of the conversation away from her inner
motivations. CwDP still stands IMO as the high point of the season
in terms of Buffy's emotional honesty and self-awareness and that
was very early in the year.
[> Okay, I'll re-work and
post my critique, until then... -- shadowkat, 20:47:36
06/18/03 Wed
Here's a repost of the message I posted below:
Several people, who are actually amazingly good critics, seem
to be reluctant to post criticism...for fear of getting too negative.
Don't be. Heck, I'm critical of the show - see my posts in the
archives. And I have half-written a criticism of S7, which I've
been holding off on posting.
But there is a difference between good constructive criticism
and bashing. For examples of bashing or self-indulgent sarcasm
go to Television Without Pity - they are experts at it. Actually
that's their intent. Or some of the other boards. The reason I
love Atpo so much, is the criticim is smart here. I may not agree
with it and some of it may push my buttons, but at least people
can relate to each other and about the show on a mature level.
Sophist does a good job of pointing out the ways you don't want
to criticize:
1. A general condemnation of a season or episode. "S7 sucks"
is just not helpful. It tells me nothing. To me, criticism must
be phrased in a way such that the author could, theoretically,
understand a clear guide for change and re-write the script to
implement it.
For example, consider the statement, "S7 is riddled with
plotholes". If you believe that, identify one and let's talk
about that specific one. Talking specifics about a small part
of the whole creates better discussion than sweeping generalizations
(to use an old term from my long ago English class).
2. Sarcasm or condescension. This is the hardest to control in
a written forum, and we've all discussed it before. Clearly, sarcastic
comments like "Geez, if you can't see this go watch Charmed"
(to pick a current example from the Board) aren't helpful.* Neither
is condescension, which I'm probably guilty of in writing this.
This I would agree with. While it is tempting to give in to this
urge it is not conducive to a good debate. You end falling into
the trap of name-calling. (On one board - I saw people take up
an entire thread with nothing but an exchange of non-text insults
- it was actually quite amusing and made the posters look ridiculous.)
I remember people criticizing S6 - a couple came out and said
it sucked, they ranted and raved, but they didn't tell us why,
except to give generalizations and bash posters who did like it.
Calling the posters who enjoyed S6 - sick twisted individuals.
Now that's not criticism, guys, that's bashing. Just as coming
out and saying Spike is the symbol of misogyny - is not constructive
criticism. You need to build the arguement - not make a blanket
statement - it just pushes buttons. Which is why I suggest people
don't post on issues that are emotional hot buttons - don't know
about anyone else? But I'm not very good at writing about something
that pushes my buttons emotionally - I tend to fall into bad debate
tactics and traps. If you truly despise a character - if that
character pushes your buttons and you know that if you post on
that character you will come off trollish, condscending, and possibly
offend and put off people that you respect? Quick solution - avoid
posting on that character. Wood does it to me. Can't deal with
the character. Pushes my hot button. And there are posters I respect
who like him, so I've tried to back away.
But this is VERY different than writing a criticism of why Giles
did not work as a character this year or how you felt Spike's
journey for a soul seemed off plot-wise or had too many gaps in
it. Or that you felt Buffy was written a little too aloof this
season.
It really is all about tone. It's also about respecting the other
posters, who disagree with you. Not condsending to them or making
them feel stupid and most importantly, avoiding the trap of making
it personal.
Comments like: "Well you're a woman and a sucker for Spike's
sex appeal so will forgive him anything" is out of line and
highly presumptive, considering for all you know, the poster could
be a heterosexual male.
Another example: Spikeapologist? Spikeshipper, Spuffyfan,
Ducks(a term for B/A shippers - from the Babble Board), B/Ashipper,
any of these phrases - which I admit are tempting - usually start
wars.
I think the fear of falling into these traps, may be what keeps
some of us from engaging in constructive criticism.
Or rather the fear of someone else falling into it.
I know I've been guilty occassionally of going there, something
that I'm always ashamed of afterwards, and really wish someone
would delete. The best we can do is try to avoid it. Respect the
fact that someone may be viewing the show from a completely different
perspective than our own, and attack the writing or structure
of the show critically, the argument in the post, but NOT the
perceptions, personality, and perspective of the poster.
That said, I think this board is actually pretty good at avoiding
these pitfalls.I've seen less of it here than elsewhere. Part
of the reason I spend most of my time here.
There, now you guys don't have to hunt for it. ;-)
(off to work on the critique......)
[> A Season in Search of
a Spin-off -- Malandanza, 22:14:04 06/18/03 Wed
I thought Season Seven began with extraordinary promise -- all
about power, with the FE as the Master/Buffy telling crazy Spike
"It's not about right. It's not about wrong. It's about Power"
-- echoing Buffy's own lines to Dawn at the start of the episode.
We also got to see Dawn and Anya questioning Willow's get-out-of-jail-free
cards as the season progressed. An old, undefeated villain was
back, potential slayers were dying, Spike was in the thrall of
the first -- lots of potential. And then what happened? All the
interesting story lines died away and Season Seven became the
season in search of a spin-off, with the finale seeming more like
a pilot episode of a new series than a conclusion to an epic.
Too many questions left unanswered -- like what was the FE doing?
While I think it is possible that ME became lazy and let BtVS
fall into ruin, ignoring basic things (like you can't drown a
vampire -- so it's not really torture to hold his head underwater
for a few minutes at a time) to focus on Willow's new girlfriend's
tongue piercing (and when did Willow turn into Anya, anyway?)
or Xander's erotic dreams, it's also possible that the things
we see as inconsistencies are just setting up the premise of the
next series. And was at least one very well done episode later
in the season -- Storyteller -- so even at that late date,
someone still cared about BtVS.
Like let's assume the FE wasn't the stupidest villain in the history
of... well, history. Why would it dig up an item the slayer needed
to defeat it? And then let the slayer have it -- order her right
hand man not to attack her? Then sit idly by while Caleb is cut
in half? And why did the Shadowmen limit the slayer powers to
a single girl? Does the source of the slayers' powers matter?
Why was it so ineffective?
The source of slayer power is some sort of primal demon -- perhaps
even the first demon, since it didn't seem particularly sentient
-- bound by the Shadowmen into one girl. A girl they watch and
teach -- and kill, if necessary. Suppose the origin of the Cruciamentum
was to eliminate girls who had been corrupted by the demon --
let the demonic spirit pass into the next vessel. Why not just
empower them all? Harder to keep track of 100 women than one,
but it might also be harder to control the demon. Bound as it
is to a single outlet, it would have limited control over its
environment. If the FE and the First Slayer are the same entity,
the FE's motives in wanting the slayers empowered become clearer.
Maybe it didn't want an end of the slayer line, but an end of
the Watchers, so it could be "made flesh" without outside
intervention. The power that Buffy rejected in the Shadowmen's
world was distributed to every potential slayer -- a few gave
permission, but most had no more choice than did the first slayer.
Buffy as the anomaly also would make sense -- a break in the slayer
line -- two slayers now instead of the mandated one. It opened
the door for giving the demon access to all the potentials --
the FE just needed the slayer to pull the trigger. Enter Caleb
and the Ubervamps -- make the situation dire enough and force
the slayer's hand. Drop hints along the way -- lead her to the
axe, keep the minion from interfering. Now the FE is made flesh
-- all over the world. What Caleb , the Bringers, and the Ubervamps
actually did was irrelevant (and we saw just how irrelevant Caleb
was in End of Days/Chosen when the First spent its time
chatting up Spike while its favorite minion was sliced in half).
Anyway, a spin-off about superpowered, young women under the constant
influence of the dark source of their powers sounds more interesting
to me than Kennedy, the Vampire Slayer (although I'd watch
the Junior Watcher's Council if Dawn and Andrew reprised their
roles).
I do think they dropped the ball on Spuffy, though. To have Buffy
deeply affected by the AR at the start of the season and suddenly,
jarringly, and for no apparent reason, switch to
She puts her hand up under his shirt, feels along his rib cage.
She looks at him with genuine concern -- his injury's worse than
he's letting on.
Potential -- shooting script
without some sort of transition, was unfortunate. They ought to
have either kept Spike at arm's length or made it very clear that
NewSpike was a completely different person than OldSpike. To make
matters worse, they turned the AR into a big joke at the end of
the season -- with the "you mean no as in eventually"
line.
[> [> Viewers in search
of the impossible -- Rook, 05:43:19 06/19/03 Thu
The real problem is viewers that are content to ignore the fact
that every single complaint you brought up here can be made about
other seasons as well. Viewers that over idealized the technical
aspects of prior seasons and then suddenly, when they heard the
series was ending, expected the series to do magical things that
it hadn't ever done before.
Vampires can't breathe? Then why did Spike act as if he was out
of breath from running in The Yoko Factor? Why is Angel panting
like a dog when the Beast kicks his ass in Apoc Nowish? MAybe
it's an error...but it's an error in one scene and has happened
more than once in the past. So why's it's such a big deal now?
Villain has a stupid plan? So WTF was Adam really up to anyhow?
Focus on Kennedy's tongue ring? We saw it once and someone made
a joke about it the next episode. Wow...maybe 10 seconds of screen
time.
As far as no "transition" for Buffy regarding her realtionship
with Spike...how many more times did she need to say "He
has a soul now" in order for people to get it?
And Xander's erotic dream! I mean Xander has never had a dream
like that before, right? I mean other than every other dream we've
seen him have, and the fact that Joss has stated that it's very
intentional that Xander relates to every other character on the
show in a sexual way.
If you want to flame things about the season, you might want to
start with things that A) Actually happened or B) Aren't things
that it's been doing for years.
[> [> [> Viewers in
search of the impossible, but wanting to avoid the ridiculous
-- cjl, 08:16:32 06/19/03 Thu
Point by point:
1. "Vampires can't breathe? Then why did Spike act as if
he was out of breath from running in The Yoko Factor? Why is Angel
panting like a dog when the Beast kicks his ass in Apoc Nowish?"
Always a problem when we see vampires sucking wind in BtVS or
ANGEL. Breaks mythology and yanks you out of the moment. But those
scenes you mention flash by in a moment, and we usually don't
catch the continuity error until a second or third viewing (I
didn't, anyway). The torture scene in Bring on the Night draws
attention to the continuity error like a red neon sign. The dramatic
thrust of the entire scene is that the FE is cutting off Spike's
breathing by drowning him. (Marti? Doug? Which one of you fell
asleep in class that day?)
2. "Villain has a stupid plan? So WTF was Adam really up
to anyhow?"
Adam was setting up a bloody battle between the demons imprisoned
at the Initiative compound and the Initiative's human soliders
so he could stock up on spare parts for construction of a cyber-demonoid
army. Why couldn't he just grab/kill demons and humans from Sunnydale's
general population and cannibalize the parts from there? Dunno.
Never claimed the plan made much sense. But at least he had a
plan and stuck with it, and I could deal with the lameness. The
FE's plan for wiping out Buffy and the Scoobs and to ruuuuuuuuule
the world seemed to change every third episode. That drove me
nuts.
3. "Focus on Kennedy's tongue ring? We saw it once and someone
made a joke about it the next episode. Wow...maybe 10 seconds
of screen time."
Kennedy's tongue ring never bothered me. Kennedy never really
bothered me. But, tongue ring or no, her character never interested
me, either. She was Willow's version of Riley--but ME spent much
more time developing Riley's personal dilemmas and quirks. In
a way, poor Iyara Limon was in a no-win situation: develop the
W/K romance fully, and you have to cut down on everybody else's
screen time; cut Kennedy back any further, and you might as well
get rid of the character.
4. "And Xander's erotic dream! I mean Xander has never had
a dream like that before, right? I mean other than every other
dream we've seen him have, and the fact that Joss has stated that
it's very intentional that Xander relates to every other character
on the show in a sexual way."
Xander's erotic dream was a hoot. Believe me, I appreciated ANY
time we spent in Xander's POV in S7.
[> [> [> [> Rook's
basic point seems right to me -- Sophist, 08:52:51 06/19/03
Thu
Namely, that other seasons have just as many "plotholes"
as S6 and S7. I think we all just noticed them more because of
greater internet participation like this Board. Points that I
would have missed were identified by others and vice versa. Made
it seem like there were more, but there really weren't. That was
the point I was trying to make in pointing out continuity errors
in WttH last week.
Here's a quick comparison: was the "drowning" of Spike
any worse than the "choking" of Dru in Becoming 2?
As for the FE's plan, I saw it as certainly no lamer than Adam's.
In fact, it was much more likely to succeed.
[> [> [> [> [>
Yes -- Rook, 09:18:21 06/19/03 Thu
And not just the greater internet participation, but even people
that were already participating in boards seemed to have their
expectations raised to unrealistic levels. Somehow, when ME said
"This is the last season", people heard "This is
the second coming of Christ." That being the case, I'm not
surprised at the dissapointment, but marvel at the unrealistic
expectations.
[> [> [> [> [>
I respectfully disagree -- Earl
Allison, 09:27:14 06/19/03 Thu
Was it? Yes, because the choking of Dru was a minor point in an
otherwise (IMHO) excellent season and scene. Spike's drowning
only added to the perception I have that ME either didn't know
what they were doing, or didn't care. I KNOW why Spike knocked
Dru out, to get her out of Sunnydale -- WHY did the FE force Spike's
head underwater?
Yes, other seasons had continuity and quality control errors,
but here'e the rub, IMHO;
The plots, nuances, and characterizations entertained me, so I
could let a few small slips go without them ruining things for
me.
In late S5 and a majority of S6 and S7, the flaws only drew more
attention because, to me, the plots and characterizations didn't
seem well-constructed. Characterization changed from scene to
scene,
To be more basic, I can overlook some minor spelling and grammatical
issues in a well-written, well thought-out essay. But when the
essay in question is largely "Bufi suX!" I'm going to
be far more critical of those same errors.
Subjective? Certainly, but I feel that in this case, better to
err on the side of a sliding scale than to claim (and I don't
say that Rook actually makes this claim, BTW) "if you accepted
an error once, it can never be brought up again."
Yes, actors breathe, so I can cut ME some slack in seeing someone
out of breath, or seeing the "fog" from the cool air
when they exhale (or speak, since technically it's the movement
of air that allows one to speak).
I cannot accept what was, IMHO, the slipshod drowning scene --
can anyone give a logical argument for what it was? Sure, I can
accept a baptism metaphor, but since (IMHO) S7 was devoid of anything
not spelled out, I can't credit ME with that alone. There was
no reason for Spike to struggle or panic that I can determine.
Surely other torments could have been devised in its place? Short
of Spike either shooting Dru with a trank gun or knocking her
unconscious with a punch (Spike didn't have a gun, and I think
punching her would have made the claim that Spike did it for love
more questionable), what other quick options were there?
I still contend that Seasons 1-4 were far better executed, and
that has a lot to do with why I will go after S5-S7 more for what
might be the same small errors -- there's no grander picture to
take my mind away from it.
All IMHO.
At the end of the day, we all take our own perceptions away from
this, and I know that many don't agree with me that S6 or S7 was
bad -- so be it. I can accept that they appealed to others. To
me, quality fell sharply, and that had a domino affect on the
entire season(s).
Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> What exactly WAS the FE's plan, anyway? -- cjl, 09:45:15
06/19/03 Thu
In Season 4, ME had to improvise in the wake of Lindsay Crouse's
departure and make Adam the Big Bad. They devised Adam's sinister
plan "on the run" and followed it through consistently
right up to the end of Primeval. Was it the most awe-inspiring
plan in the history of the series? No. But the through-line was
there.
Was the FE's plan to:
1. Break its ties to the physical universe and shuffle off this
mortal coil once and for all?
2. Destroy the Slayer line through the weakness hinted at by Beljoxa's
eye?
3. Manifest itself in the flesh and rule the world?
4. Overrun the planet with a Turok-han army?
Does anybody know for sure?
I'm sorry, but I think Earl has a point. Minor consistency errors
are a fact of life on a TV series, but this is another level entirely.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Agree -- ponygirl, 10:15:48 06/19/03 Thu
Minor points like the drowning don't bother me in the slightest,
but the lack of understanding about what the FE was about, or
even what it exactly it was, seem to be too huge a hole. Like
why didn't it kill Spike? Or Buffy?
I don't think having a shadowy ill-defined villain for the season
would have been a problem except that we kept being told, explicitly,
that the First had a plan, a purpose that involved complicated
set-ups like Spike's trigger, destroying the Watchers, and bringing
back Andrew and Jonathon.
I don't think our expectations about receiving an explanation
were unrealistic. ME's usually good about trying to cover up the
holes. It could be as offhand as Jasmine explaining away all of
the Beast's actions as "birth pains." Or Glory musing
that she couldn't use her godlike strength to kill Buffy sooner
because of Ben's influence. Even the clunkiest bit of exposition
to try and connect all of the loose ends would have been appreciated.
And for the record I really liked s4 and never had a problem with
Adam's plan - mainly because it was never sold to us as being
one of the driving forces of the season as I feel the First's
plan was.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> There was a little bit of explanation in
"Chosen" -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:41:58 06/19/03
Thu
That, with an army of the First's overrunning the world, the universal
scales would tip heavily towards evil, meaning the First woukld
have a greater pull on the world, thus becoming flesh. Also, when
it said "done with the mortal coil" in CwDP, we all
assumed the First was contemplating suicide, but, really, it's
not mortal, so maybe it really meant getting rid of all those
pesky mortals and their coil.
Not to say there weren't things that bothered me (the meaning
of Beljoxa's eye, why the First told the Turok-Han to kill everyone
"but her", what destroying the Slayer line mattered
(I know that, if they were all activated, they could form a world
wide defense against the Turok-Han, but all the First would have
to do is stop Buffy from finding the Scythe, then).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> There wasn't enough of an explanation
in "Chosen" -- cjl, 11:03:59 06/19/03 Thu
It appeared to me that, in the first half of the season, ME was
setting up a metaphysical connection between the FE and the Slayer
line. The reason the Bringers and/or Caleb didn't simply blow
up the Summers house with everyone in it was that the Slayers
had to be eliminated in a very specific order, with either Buffy,
Faith or maybe even Dawn as the last survivor (kill everyone "but
her").
I was also fairly certain that the FE's comments in CWDP did reflect
its intention to commit cosmic suicide, taking all of creation
with it. (I was probably wrong.) How did this suicide tie in with
the elimination of the Slayers? It doesn't matter. The plan delineated
in Chosen didn't reflect any of the plot points brought up in
the first half of the season.
And you're right, Caroline--maybe a lot of us were expecting something
more complicated. Look at Malandanza's post at the end of my "ennui"
thread--he thinks Buffy did exactly what the FE wanted her to
do, mainly, empower the Potentials. He thinks the FE won!
How silly.
(Or is it?)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> The FE's plan is in the script! -- Caroline,
10:37:37 06/19/03 Thu
From the shooting script for Chosen, courtesy of Psyche:
BUFFY
Have you ever considered a cool name?
Since you're incorporeal and
basically powerless you could call
yourself "The Taunter." Strikes
fear...
CALEB/FIRST
I will overrun this earth.
BUFFY
You know how many people have said
that to me?
CALEB/FIRST
I do, since they all had a small part
of me in them. Whereas I have all of
me in me, so I like my chances
somewhat better. And when my army
outnumbers the humans on this earth
the scales will tip and I will be
made flesh.
The plan is all 4 of your points. Sounds like a takeover of the
earth, with lots of pain and death for all non-evil things. And
when the FE is flesh, she'll be able to make the pain and death
happen herself. The FE knows the slayer stands in the way, (I
fanwank that the problem in the slayer line mentioned by Beljoxa's
eye is Buffy's resurrection at beginning of S6 and I don't have
a time problem here 'cos we know that the FE was messing with
Spike before S7 started) so the FE needs to get rid of all the
slayers. It's actually rather simple. Perhaps we're having problems
'cos we expected something more complicated?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> I think I was expecting "more complicated"!
-- Scroll, 10:55:42 06/19/03 Thu
Which might've been an unrealistic expectation. I mean, overrun
the world with Turok-Han, have the scales tip so that the First
Evil can manifest itself is... well, kinda scary and will probably
cause lots of chaos and some massacring. But as plans go? Not
really that diabolical. Not... creepy or sinister, the way Jasmine's
plan was.
I kinda wanted to see the First Evil as, well, the first evil.
The first drop of hate, of sin, of evilness in every human heart.
Something that can never be defeated because it pervades every
soul on earth. An agent of chaos. The Taunter that could get young
potentials to hang themselves in the bathroom out of fear and
despair. I wanted to see Buffy and the Scoobies wrestle with their
dark sides and overcome them. But even Willow and Spike, who were
the closest to having storylines of overcoming past evils, didn't
really "overcome" so much as "side-step".
IMHO. Anya, I think, could've really developed with this idea
of overcoming past evils, but well, I won't keep going over the
same ground... :)
Anyway, thanks for posting the quote, Caroline. While I would've
liked hints of the FE's plan sooner, I do think "Chosen"
at least clarifies what it was. I guess my reaction is kinda like
Buffy's (which could be a good thing, I guess?) in that I wasn't
very impressed.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: The FE's plan is in the script! --
fidhle, 14:56:17 06/19/03 Thu
I agree with what Caroline is saying, for the most part. However,
I think that the weakness in the slayer line was not Buffy and/or
her resurection, but rather was Faith, and her, for most of the
season, incarceration. The statement by Beljoxa's eye is ambigious
as to which slayer. Giles and Anya leap to the conclusion that
it refers to Buffy, but the eye simply said "the Slayer."
The ability of the FE to end the slayer line really came about
because of the inability of Faith to fight vamps and demons due
to incarceration. While she was locked up, no new slayer could
be called. It was in the interest of the FE to make sure that
Faith was the last in the slayer line to be killed; otherwise,
a new slayer would be called. By hunting down and killing all
of the potentials, the FE was implimenting such a plan. (The one
flaw in this analysis was the apparant attempt to kill or injure
Faith in the prison. That, or course, could have been intended
to injure and further incapacitate Faith.) Once the potentials
had all been eliminated, Faith could be killed and no new slayer
called, thus endeth the slayer line.
As to Buffy, I think that, since Buffy was no longer in the slayer
line of succession, the timing of her death really made little
difference, except that the FE probably figured, based on observation,
that Faith would likely be forgotten while Buffy was still active.
Thus it was to the FE's interest to keep Buffy alive until the
end. The freeing of Faith thus caused real problems for the FE,
because now it was much more likely that Faith would be killed,
bringing forth a new slayer, befored all of the potentials could
be killed. Also, I like the idea that the FE, being, after all,
evil, wanted to keep Buffy around to see all of her friends and
charges killed, since Buffy had taunted the FE in Amends. (After
all, being evil should mean one can hold grudges, shouldn't it?)
As to the criticism of Buffy's character during S7, I find it
very believable that she would become distant and remote, believing
that she is responsible for the lives of all of the potentials
and that some, if not all, would die in the near future. Buffy
is full of love, so sayeth the First Slayer, and such love can
be incapacitating under such stress. Distance is needed for leaders
in Buffy's situation to avoid going wiggy and burning out. Until
Buffy had a way out of that situation, she really had little choice
but to be the remote "general," a role that was thrust
on her by all.
Fid
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Tangentially -- Darby, 11:15:52 06/19/03
Thu
Forget how it was done, why was it necessary to torture Spike
anyway? He continued to be programmed as a sleeper, effective
only if reintegrated with Buffy's group. Why play with him and
accuse Buffy of abandoning him when he really didn't believe he
was worth rescuing (he changed his mind eventually, but still)?
And what purpose was he supposed to serve for the First? No plan
ever appeared to be thwarted, and if the First knew in advance
about the Scythe, and the Amulet, and Angel out and Spike in,
why didn't It pack for Cleveland?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I respectfully disagree -- Sophist, 09:51:01
06/19/03 Thu
I'm certainly not going to defend the drowning scenes; they were
silly and they did detract from the episodes. But by the same
token, I had the same reaction to Spike choking Dru in Becoming
2. While it was shorter than the drowning, it occupied a more
significant moment in a more important episode, so it was magnified.
I can think of only one way to convince you that there were just
as many continuity problems in S1-4 as in S5-7: to point out all
the earlier errors. I suspect that would just make you feel worse
about S1-4 rather than better about S5-7. For your own peace of
mind EA, I'll refrain. :)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> The drowning scene was really UPN's fault --
Finn Mac Cool, 10:55:59 06/19/03 Thu
The original plan was to have Spike's head dunked into a pool
of holy water, causing many ouchies. However, UPN, for whatever
reason, put the kaibosh on that. So, ME could either film a new
torture sequence for Spike (which would take up a time, something
that is very valuable on the quick schedule of making television
shows) or they could show what they had already filmed and just
not add in the smoky effect that would signal holy water. We can
see which choice they chose.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> OK. I officially apologize to Marti and Doug
-- cjl, 11:09:15 06/19/03 Thu
I have my explanation. I think that's all I ever wanted. Moving
on....
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Yes, I heard that too. Although in retrospect,
it's strange that UPN would... -- Rob, 11:16:11 06/19/03
Thu
...reject the Holy Water torture, but not Caleb. Those networks
really should be more consistent!
I guess from this point on, we'll just have to imagine smoke billowing
from Spike in those scenes, and move on from there. ;o)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> I'll fix that in my ep analysis
-- Masq, 11:53:07 06/19/03 Thu
I just wish people would be able to read it!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> UPN = Weird. Marti & Doug = A-OK. --
Scroll, 11:53:50 06/19/03 Thu
Thanks so much for that tidbit of info, Finn. I don't even care
if it's just a rumour and not from an actual interview. This makes
so much more sense that I will happily take it and live
with it.
*imagines Spike's face hissing from the holy water*
*smiles dreamily*
(Okay, feeling the need to point out that I'm kinky. And joking!)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> There was an interview somewhere...maybe
from the Buffy magazine? I'll see if I can find it. -- Rob,
11:56:21 06/19/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Rook's basic point seems right to me -- Malandanza,
09:45:34 06/19/03 Thu
"Namely, that other seasons have just as many "plotholes"
as S6 and S7. I think we all just noticed them more because of
greater internet participation like this Board. Points that I
would have missed were identified by others and vice versa. Made
it seem like there were more, but there really weren't. That was
the point I was trying to make in pointing out continuity errors
in WttH last week."
I don't expect the first few episodes of a new series to be as
well crafted as the season finale, but I think in BtVS, the first
season had fewer plotholes than the last. Furthermore, where the
first season's omissions were things like "how'd they know
where to find Willow and Jesse?" the last season's problems
were far more serious (and more pervasive):
Did Buffy think 20 slayers could stop 20,000 Ubervamps when she
had trouble with one?
What would they have done if Spike's magic amulet hadn't saved
the day?
How is it that the man who blew up the WC couldn't kill all the
potentials with his bomb in an enclosed area?
The Guardians? Where have they been for the last seven years?
Why dig up the scythe if Buffy doesn't even know about it?
How did those other Ubervamps get out of the Hellmouth if Buffy
sealed it with Andrew's tears?
How did Buffy go from mortally wounded to leaping from one building
to the next?
When did newly risen vampires become so chatty? (And I place this
as a serious problem because it calls into question Buffy's right
to slay -- if the vampire is not really that different from the
human, why not wait and see if they will be evil instead of immediately
slaying?)
Why did everyone evacuate Sunnydale?
And, of course, how could ME turn the attempted rape of the heroine
into a joke? (I have a feeling that if things had been reversed
-- if Spike had complained that Buffy never "connected"
with him and she had remarked that she had connected plenty of
times when she beat him to a bloody pulp behind the police station,
there would have been more of an outcry).
In addition to a host of less serious problem like:
How is it that Jonathan's blood didn't work, but pig's blood or
vampire blood would?
What was the manifestation that appeared to Dawn -- Joyce or the
FE?
Vampires tracking day old trails by following the scent in the
air.
Angel and Spike both finding Buffy, The Guardian, and Caleb.
A "redeemed" vampire wearing the trophy coat he stripped
from a dead slayer.
The most stereotyped villain ever (Caleb).
What did the ubervamps eat while spending the centuries in that
extradimensional area? (and why did the collapsing extradimensional
cave cause a sinkhole in Sunnydale?)
Why didn't Willow cast the empowerment spell before they opened
the seal?
Why didn't they guard the portal (and kill any escaping Ubervamps)
instead of spreading out through the school?
What was the point of Wood's character?
Here's a quick comparison: was the "drowning" of
Spike any worse than the "choking" of Dru in Becoming
2?
Just because ME did something stupid back in Season Two doesn't
mean they can repeat the stupidity and call it continuity. It
was a mistake then and was still a mistake in Season Seven --
but worse, because they were using it as torture. Even Glory was
smarter than that.
As for the FE's plan, I saw it as certainly no lamer than Adam's.
In fact, it was much more likely to succeed.
What was the FE's plan again? I was never very clear on that...
[> Disagreement with the
spin-off theory and personal realisation -- KdS, 04:14:48
06/19/03 Thu
Firstly, I don't agree with the idea that many S7 problems were
because of the desire to create spin-offs. I saw the final season
of Babylon 5, which really did degenerate into a naked
attempt to create as many spin-off possibilities as possible rather
than end the story in a satisfying manner (in poetic justice,
the one spin-off they did try tanked). S7 didn't compare to that.
Yes, plot lines were lost, but they were lost in a way which suggested
they genuinely fell off the radar rather than being reserved for
spin-offs.
Secondly, I recently realised my key problem with the shape of
S7, which most of you who read my posts probably realised well
before I consciously did. When I heard that the evil this season
was going to be the First Evil, I thought that the creators were
actually trying to say something significant about evil. Instead
the FE was just an antagonist for Buffy, as usual. (If it really
had been anything more, the final episode wouldn't have been such
a slugfest). I think when I rewatch without that preconceived
idea, I may enjoy the lattter half of the season more.
[> [> What could have
been -- Anneth, 09:01:57 06/19/03 Thu
When I heard that the evil this season was going to be the
First Evil, I thought that the creators were actually trying to
say something significant about evil. Instead the FE was just
an antagonist for Buffy, as usual.
I agree. The FE started off as a really interesting idea - and
ME almost pulled it off. Every season had Buffy (and everyone)
battling their inner darkness as well as the external manifestation
of that darkness; S6 and S7 tried to make the lines between the
two blurrier. For a while, it seemed that S7 might actually succeed
in a major way. Buffy didn't have Faith as her noir foil anymore,
she had herself, in the form of the FE. Willow, Spike, Dawn, Faith,
Wood - each had to deal with ghosts they'd put to rest, including,
perhaps most importantly, ghosts of their former selves. Can you
imagine the horror, the pain, of coming face to face with your
dead mother? How that experience would effect you? With the FE,
ME had a way to tap into a vein of human emotion not often expressed
(or, at least, expressed believably). The mine (if you'll excuse
the extended metaphore) was amazingly rich with possibilities.
So why didn't it work? My major problem with the FE was this -
I couldn't figure out what it wanted. Or why it wanted whatever
it wanted. And the final answer seemed to be, it wanted to be
corporeal. What? The expression of ultimate evil wants
to become corporeal on a show that previously illustrated
over and over and over again that ultimate evil comes in the form
of psychological manipulation? Take Angelus, for example: His
murder of Jenny was pretty horrendus, but it was the cruel trick
he played on Giles with Jenny's body that really demonstrated
his capacity for evil. With six years of history indicating that
evil is evil for what it does, not what it is, the fact that the
FE just wanted to be able to kill people with its bare hands struck
me as a pretty big cop-out.
[> The John Nathan Turner
effect or Spiderman vs. The Avengers -- matching mole, 10:34:12
06/19/03 Thu
Wow! This has been a great thread. A lot of really interesting
ideas about the season here. Quite a bit that I agree with from
a number of different people.
I really, really liked the first third of the season (up through
and including Conversations with Dead People) and as noted the
rest of the season seems to suffer in comparison. I think there
are a number of reasons for this.
1) If you take the 'lt's all about Buffy' point of view repeatedly
advocated by manwitch and here by Sophist you can interpret a
lot of the early part of S7 very differently than I and others
might have been inclined to interpret it at the time. Episodes
like 'Selfless' and ' Same Time, Same Place' seemed to me to be
hinting at interesting developments to come. But they could equally
be considered as epilogues to S6, finishing things off rather
than starting new things. Personally I can see the 'it's all about
Buffy' view. It makes sense and intellectually it is interesting
and enlightening. However it doesn't connect with me emotionally
which I think is just a reflection of my own personal tastes in
fiction.
2) The opening episodes, as KdS mentions, seem to strongly hint
at the conflict with the FE teaching us something about the nature
of evil or at least some exploration of 'it's all about power'
which seemed to just whither away as the season progressed and
what the FE really wanted just seemed to get murkier (and less
interesting). This reminded me a lot of a change in the British
SF show ' Dr. Who' at the end of the 1970s. Prior to that point
the show usually had fairly straightforward plots. Not that they
didn't have numerous logical flaws but it was never confusing.
At the end of the Tom Baker era John Nathan Turner took over as
producer. The adventures took on a much more complicated air with
early episodes being often very mysterious. When an adventure
wound up a lot of the events early in an adventure were either
ignored or quickly explained away.
Much more so than in any other season of BtVs, early S7 appears
to really build us up for events ahead. I think that a number
of other seasons had excellent early episodes (I am not among
those who is really anxious for the seasonal arc to get underway
asap) but those episodes generally didn't hint so strongly about
events to come. So the expectations of many of us are raised high,
higher perhaps than can possibly be met. So plot holes are much
more obvious because so much seemed to be hinted at early on.
Another aspect of S7 is a general shift in tone which, to a certain
extent, had been going on for a while but really accelerated here.
The comparison between Buffy and Spiderman has been made before
and seems quite appropriate. Spiderman is a complex character
whose alter-ego is at least as important to the story as the webslinger.
The supporting characters are often complicated with stories of
their own - their relationships are not static. The personal aspects
of Spiderman's conflicts with various super villains is at least
as important as 'saving the day'.
In S7 the show seems to be more like some sort of superhero team
storyline. The slayer mythology, which formerly was only brought
up now and then, becomes much more central. The scoobies former
structure was pretty anarchistic but during this season it becomes
more formal. Characterization sort of falls to the wayside except
where necessary to advance the story.
Finally, I have found that having a emotionally complex set of
antagonists for Buffy and co is a really important part of a seasonal
arc. S2 and S3 are obviously superb in that respect. S6 is also
excellent. Other seasons tend to suffer somewhat in comparison
but none moreso than S7. Have an incorporeal manifestation of
evil itself as a long term villain is a tricky thing to pull off
and if I was ME I don't think I would have even tried it. But
there didn't seem to be any attempt to really develop the FE,
despite all the attention and build up it was given early in the
series. And, while Nathan Fillion's portrayal of Caleb was superb,
it came rather late in the season and there was no opportunity
to really develop him beyond a caricature. Think of how interesting
it might have been if, for example, the FE had succeeded in becoming
corporeal in Buffy's form and how Caleb might have reacted to
that. I think of the excellent use of the character of Jasmine
on AtS and how much was done with a character similar to the FE
in a short period of time.
Sorry there's no clear unifying principle behind all this, except
perhaps that of misdirection. I think that ME, intentionally or
not, really hinted at something early in the season to a lot of,
something that didn't pan out at all.
Season 7 and
Criticism -- Rina, 15:43:46 06/18/03 Wed
It amazes me how so many people are trying to convince others
that their opinion on Season 7 is the right one. They say that
they're only stating their opinion. Bullshit! Many are trying
to force their opinions upon others, whether they liked Season
7 or not.
For the record, I liked Season 7. It is my second favorite season,
following Season 5. I don't expect any of you to share my opinion
and I absolutely refuse to engage in a debate on the quality of
the season. I realize that it had its flaws, but so did the other
BUFFY seasons - from 1 through 6. It is nothing new.
If you don't share my opinion. Fine. If you do, it's nice to know
someone I can connect with. That's all I'm going to say for a
while.
[> Persuasion -- Maura,
18:39:22 06/18/03 Wed
Rina, you make a very good point. There's been a lot more than
just stating of opinions going on around S7. I think for most
of us, emotions are running pretty high. We're mourning the loss
of our favorite show. Some of us are mourning what we perceive
as its loss of quality even before the end, which makes the end
itself more distressing because -- as cjl points out in the post
below -- there's no S8 to iron things out in. All this naturally
tends to make us state our positions strongly and perhaps over-emotionally.
But I think there's more than this going on in some of our attempts
to persuade people to accept our own views.
(Warning: in the following, there's a lot of harping on the word
"moral," which I know can sound sermonizing and annoying.
Apologies.)
Let me speak for my own experience: as I discussed in my very
quickly archived post of a few weeks ago, I found much of the
resolution of S7 morally disturbing. (I'm not going to reiterate
why right now.) While many people have commented on elements of
S7 they felt disappointing, I appear to be one of the only people
on this board who had this kind of visceral moral revulsion (to
some, not all of it).
Now when a group of people -- like those on this board -- who
you know to be intelligent, insightful, moral, and ethical people
based on the posts you read do not see a moral problem in something
you find extremely problematic, that is an extremely unsettling
experience. In my own admittedly argumentative tract on Chosen
(and the arc of S7), I was indeed doing more than just stating
my opinion. I was also gauging how many would agree with me; I
was looking for help in reconciling S7 to my moral sensibilities
(and I got some); and I was attempting to persuade people to my
view.
I think for almost all of us, BtVS carries strong moral and ethical
messages, and those messages will vary depending on how we interpret
the show. In attempting to persuade others that we are "right,"
therefore, we are attempting to disseminate our understanding
of morality. In its broadest sense, this activity is potentially
important to "making the world a better place," as corny
as that sounds, and that seems to me a valid goal (though it leads
to high strung and painful conversations).
Final note: I don't really think that my sense of morality is
very different from that of the other folks on this board (or
from ME). I expect that 95% of the confusion over S7 is a difference
in the interpretation of metaphors.
[> [> Re: Persuasion
-- Corwin of Amber, 21:41:52 06/18/03 Wed
Just curious, and you don't really have to answer if it feels
uncomfortable, but what were the moral problems you had with S7?
I saw problems of plot, characterization and logic, my moral problems
were with S6 (which yeah, set up S7.)
Minority representation
-- shambleau, 15:44:33 06/18/03 Wed
Thinking about the number of people of color in Season 7. Compared
to other seasons, it was huge. For recognizable, continuing characters,
you had Rona, Nikki and Robin Wood and Chau An, the First Slayer
(briefly),along with that nameless black SIT with the dyed-blonde
hair. Both Chloe and Kennedy could be seen as Hispanic, since
the actresses who played them were, although it wasn't brought
up.
In addition, almost every episode had some scene with minority
one-shots, some of them with quite prominent and/or memorable
roles. Think of Aliyaa(sp?), the Asian girl in the closet in Selfless,
and the three shamans who created Slayers. Then there were the
minor roles. The black leader of the Wiccan group, the girl vampire
who fought with Spike in the Bronze, Carlos, the cop whom Willow
hypnotized, etc. I could go on for a number of eps, but you get
the idea. If you look at earlier seasons, the difference is striking,
although BtVS always had more minority presence than people realize.
Any ideas as to why?
This may have been commented on in some thread I missed long ago.
If so, point me to the relevant archive and I'll check it out.
[> I noticed that too
-- curious, 18:29:40 06/18/03 Wed
A friend and I talked about the racial diversity earlier in the
season too. We thought that maybe it was a reflection of Buffy's
world getting more diverse. She was moving away from just her
family, friends and little town of Sunnydale and getting involved
with more of the "real world".
That and maybe it fit with what they were planning for a possible
spin-off.
[> [> Re: I noticed that
too -- Yellow Bear, 18:38:47 06/18/03 Wed
UPN appeals to a larger urban (industry speak for African-American)
audience than the WB so maybe they asked Whedon to include a few
more black cast members if possible. Perhaps this explains Ashanti,
who I thought was fine unlike several people who reacted as if
the sky was falling
[> [> [> Re: I noticed
that too -- LeeAnn, 20:56:57 06/18/03 Wed
Yeah, I think you are right. UPN is focusing on the black audience
so more black characters were included starting with Principal
Wood, who was supposed to be in the Faith spin-off as Faith's
love interest. His presence was supposed to make the premise more
appealing to UPN and their audience.
[> [> [> [> The
sheer number of supporting roles dramatically increased in the
last few episodes. -- WickedBuffy, 21:50:26 06/18/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> Re:
I noticed that too -- Yellow Bear, 21:52:59 06/18/03 Wed
I never heard about Wood being in the Faith spin-off. Where did
you acquire that info?
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I noticed that too -- LeeAnn, 01:13:19 06/19/03
Thu
I think it was in the Succubus Club interview with Minear and
Fury. The Faith/Spike spinoff was supposed to have Spike as a
ghost and Wood as her love interest. Little wonder ED turned it
down. Ghost!Spike indeed. Though I do understand it. If he wasn't
a ghost they would have to end up in bed almost immediately because
Faith is ...well...a nympho and Spike has proven he can be in
loved with one girl (Dru or Buffy) and sleep with another (Harmony).
And once it was Faith/Spike that would close down a lot of storylines
for them both.
[> Re: Minority representation
-- Sofdog, 06:30:22 06/19/03 Thu
"along with that nameless black SIT with the dyed-blonde
hair"
Caridad. Not named on-air, but she was Latina not African-American.
There were other SITs. There was a girl with strange puff balls
on each side of her head who went in against Caleb in "Dirty
Girls." With the SITs it made sense. The other characters
I'm not sure about.
Buffy Fan
Fic? -- goose, 18:39:24 06/18/03 Wed
Does anyone know a place for good fan fiction? I was doing pretty
well, since the end of Buffy, but lately I've been suffering serious
withdrawl. I've never really been one for fan fiction, but I need
something. Recommendations?
[> I suggest the Buffy Fiction
Archive -- Scroll, 19:26:33 06/18/03 Wed
I think the Buffy Fiction
Archive might be the best fanfic archive for Buffy
and Angel on the net. It has an excellent search engine,
lots of quality fanfic, and is updated pretty regularly. There's
a decent mixture of general versus 'shippy fic, solo characters
versus ensemble, and pretty much every Buffyverse pairing known
to exist. (But no Darla/Snyder fic, I've checked!)
Of course, there's also our own fanfic archive at Existential
Scoobies. I'd link to it, but for some reason I can't get on the
site right now! But there's lots of good fiction written by our
fellow posters here on the board : )
Hope this helps!
[> Ooh! Hello! -- HonorH,
19:28:42 06/18/03 Wed
I've got several places for you to check out! First of all, there's
the good ol' Buffy Writers' Guild, where you can find links to
pages for all genres, characters, and relationships:
BtVS Writers' Guild
Then there's one of my favorite places, because they specialize
in hosting actual *good* fanfic:
Better Buffy Fiction
Archive
Now we come to one of my favorite places to post:
Buffy Fiction Archive
And finally, in case you're feeling adventuresome, there's always:
Fanfiction.net
Warning: it's a rough neighborhood, but there are wonderful things
to be had there nonetheless. Try Gyrus, Selena, Yahtzee, Rheanna,
mikelesq, and Mariner. I like 'em.
Hope that helps!
[> Re: Buffy Fan Fic?
-- LadyStarlight, 19:42:06 06/18/03 Wed
Well, since ATPo seems to like me tonight, here's the link directly
to the fiction.
Also, there's some fiction pages (including HonorH's page )
up on the links
page too.
There's also essays, poetry and lots of other good stuff. Poke
around, see what's there!
Angel S3 & S4
-- Yellow Bear, 19:29:54 06/18/03 Wed
I don't go to discussion forums that often (spoilers for one reason)
but I've been here (great group here, BTW) often since the close
of the season and have noticed several people express displeasure
with Angel S3 & S4. I have to say I am surprised as the general
perception in the media (sci-fi magazines, net sites, newspapers,
etc.) is that the last two years of Angel were far stronger than
the first two. Is this the general consensus among the people
in this forum (as much as anything can have a general consensus)
or do the last two years rank as disappointments?
For my money, Angel has been remarkably consistent since near
the end of S1 (Faith two-parter) with the last season being very
strong especially with the behind-the-scenes problems.
[> Re: Angel S3 & S4
-- AngelVSAngelus, 22:27:52 06/18/03 Wed
I think Season 2 still ranks as my fav for Angel.
I haven't had any sort of all encompassing disappointment with
the last two seasons, but I can identify why the first two seem
to resonate with me more:
a) Episodic format and universalized metaphor/motif: The show
began and continued into Season more focused on the characters
and situations metaphorically representing anxieties that plague
city-bound contemporary society. Isolation, trying to make a connection
but being surrounded by a pack of wolves, the intimidation that
comes with being in this large place, dreams made and then broken
by the harshness of reality.
Angel as a character voiced much of the portion devoted to social
ineptitude. I HEAVILY relate to that to this day. His search for
family was another subject that I could relate to.
Cordelia was the embodiment of lost and broken dreams, of dealing
with rejection, and feeling inadequate when you don't live up
to the expectations of yourself and society regarding your future.
Doyle and Wesley kind of echoed these traits, Kate was another
lonely lost soul, etc.
and there was the perfect layer of Wolfram and Hart, those that
stand as the figures of upper-class, immoral elitists that lend
a hand to the oppression of the people of the city.
Let me say that from personal experience, all of this was HEAVILY
resonant for me.
b) Tim Minear. Love the man. And he's been gone (with the exception
of the season finale/season 5 pilot) for quite a while.
The series didn't necessarily lose all of these themes, its just
that it seems to me that one of them became 88 % more prominent
than any of the others: family. Angel's quest for connections
became the heavy focus, as did the breaking down of that entire
dynamic to lend drama to the subject. Which is good. A different
type of good, however.
I prefer the more widely metaphoric material, I suppose, to that
which focuses more specifically on the characters as an end unto
themselves.
Its cool, however, that redemption remains a staple in the series,
with all the characters that have done something reprehensible
and continuing to want to atone. Wesley's character in particular
became even more interesting through that process.
Okay, now I'm rambling. My point was, I guess I disagree with
the critics, not in disliking S3 and 4, but in not liking it as
much as 1 and 2.
[> [> Re: Angel S3 & S4
-- Ray, 02:36:50 06/19/03 Thu
The Darla story in Season 2 was my favorite time for the show.
Angel really tried to figure himself out, then isolate himself,
then realize that great epiphany "If there's no big plan,
and nothing matters, then the smallest act of kindness is the
mostimportant thing in the world." I really liked that idea.
However, I will say that Seasons 3 an4 were excellent (especially
in retrospect with everything laid out).
[> Re: Angel S3 & S4
-- matching mole, 09:16:52 06/19/03 Thu
S2 Angel is, in my humble opinion, among the best in either series.
I liked S1 quite a bit as well. I'm a big fan of good stand alone
episodes and, as noted by others, S1 has a lot of interesting
stuff to say about life in the city, etc.
I basically like S3. I thought the Darla episodes were great as
were a lot of the other early episodes. Also, I thought that Holtz
and Sahjan (sp?) were excellent villains. However several things
began to irritate me late in the season. The post-'Birthday' direction
for Cordelia seemed (and seems more so in hindsight) rather aimless,
unconvincing, and not entertaining in the least. All the characters
got locked into certain mindsets and stayed there for a really
long time.
Which brings me to S4. While I hate to be merely negative (ratherly
than analytically negative) I would have to rate the first two
thirds of the season as the worst television ME has ever produced.
Gunn's description of it as 'a turgid supernatural soap opera'
seems all too apt. The pacing seemed glacial, the characters completely
self-absorbed. One or the other of these two would be OK but both
in combination is deadly. Late season developments really improved
the show a lot, otherwise I might have stopped watching next year.
[> [> Finally--a negative
opinion about ANGEL S4. Been waiting for this! -- cjl, 12:19:30
06/19/03 Thu
Don't be shy, mole. I'd like to see a more detailed negative critique
of ANGEL S4. (No, really. Hey, if I can burden people with my
gripes about Buffy S7, I can take criticism of a season I liked.)
Were you disenchanted with the Angel/Cordy/Connor and Fred/Wes/Gunn
triangles? Sick of the Fang Gang whining about their love lives
while Los Angeles was transformed into downtown Hades? Highly
upset that the one character who wasn't navel-gazing (Lilah) wound
up dead in "Calvary"?
Please elucidate.
[> [> [> It's kind
of difficult -- matching mole, 13:04:11 06/19/03 Thu
Because I can't remember much of the details of the first part
of the season (and I don't tape the episodes). All I can do is
give you my subjective impression. It seemed to combine the weaknesses
of the middle parts of BtVS S6 (the self-absorption of the main
characters) and S7 (action seems to be rather solely oriented
at moving the season arc forward with little concern for any intrinsic
interest the action might have).
I didn't really object to any specific plot development but rather
the amount of time spent on them with little apparent change (in
comparison to the rapid pace of events in S2 and early S3). For
example, Wesley was amazing in 'Billy' and gripping in the events
leading up to Connor's abduction. Then he seemed stuck for a long
time (brooding, sleeping with Lilah, more brooding, savomg Angel,
more brooding, more sleeping with Lilah, more brooding, doing
something else, more brooding). And the same sort of thing can
be said for the other main characters. This wouldn't be fine if
it was going on in the background with other stuff taking center
stage (as with a lot of character development in S1 and S2). But
I have a limited tolerance for brooding as the central focus (but
that's just me). It just seems so one sided, with so little sense
of humour and perspective (unlike the previous seasons with their
rapid changes in mood).
One initial difference from BtVS that I liked (just because it's
different rather than an improvement) was the lack of a seasonal
villain but rather the constant background presence of W and H.
Holtz was the first real deviation from this but he was such a
magnificent figure that he carried the end of S3 by himself. The
Beast was like the FE in BtVS - a figure of great menace entirely
lacking in personality. A figure that both literally and metaphorically
wipes out L.A. - a setting that was a big part of the show in
the first couple of seasons.
The one plot development that seemed completely objectionable
(not just in emphasis but in its very nature) was Cordelia which
I find even more unsatisfactory now than I did at the time. I
found her character development from S1 to Birthday to be one
of the best - subtle, gradual, convincing. Not at all heavy-handed.
Then we get jerked all over the place and when an explanation
finally is offered it doesn't really make any sense.
The latter part of the season was much better. Jasmine brought
the team out of their self absorption and restored L.A. as a focus.
I just wish that it had happened halfway through the season and
spared us about half the brooding.
[> [> [> [> oops
-- matching mole, 13:08:12 06/19/03 Thu
that should be saving Angel, rather than savoring Angel
[> [> [> [> I can
see your point on this.... -- cjl, 13:38:37 06/19/03 Thu
Although I didn't think Wesley's brooding distracted from the
main plotlines at the start of the season (i.e., rescuing Angel,
Cordelia and Lorne, the mystery of Cordy's amnesia, etc.). Besides,
Wesley and Lilah's gamesmanship? Fun. Eeeeevil fun.
I will confess that the G/F/W triangle didn't interest me in the
slightest, and the warping of Gunn's character to fit the Othello
mold irritated me no end. However, "Supersymmetry" brought
the muder of Professor Seidel into the relationship and mucked
things up for my Least Favorite Couple to my infinite delight.
It also brought back and gave new dimensions to "Angry Fred"
from "Deep Down"--and I love Fred when she's angry.
Her solo turn in Shiny Happy People/Magic Bullet was set up by
those early eps.
And Cordy? Yeah, well--as I said above, it was a long way to go
for a measly four episode arc, and they damn near destroyed Cordy's
character to do it. Still, not a total loss, as Evil!Cordy was
the prime mover in Connor's downward spiral. The stunning back-to-back
of "Peace Out" and "Home" wouldn't have been
possible without her.
[> [> Re: Angel S3 & S4
-- Q, 12:33:09 06/19/03 Thu
Your last paragraph is *dead on*. It was painful. And speaking
of not watching. Of all of my "real life" (not inernet)
associates who are Buffy/Angel fans, All but me have quit watching
Angel.
My sister used to watch both, but quit watching Angel in disgust.
My wife used to watch both, but quit watching Angel in disgust.
And two other friends quit watching Angel all together.
They ask me how in the world I can watch such shallow tripe, and
why I don't just turn into CHARMED (an insult people on this board
seem fond of) or reruns of 90210, or Dawsons Creek or something.
I say simply-- Faith. I have so much Faith that Joss will save
the show. I mean, season 4 of Buffy was pretty bad (although compared
with the last 2 1/3 seasons of Angel it is great) and they came
back with the MASTERPIECE that was season 5.
So I have waited, for over 2 years, saying trust Joss, trust Joss,
he'll save it... And nothing yet.
I am going to give him one more chance. Now that Fray is practically
done, Firefly cancelled, and Buffy over, he will hopefully have
the time to actually WATCH the show and do something about how
plebian it has got. If not, I guess I will be done with ME after
this season.
[> [> [> Interesting,
I had the opposite reaction -- ponygirl, 13:47:21 06/19/03
Thu
Most of my real life BtVS-watching crowd quit watching AtS in
s3 (I stuck with it, but often under protest) but we all came
back on board this year. Initially it was all about Faith - the
character rather than belief in the show. Everyone wanted to see
how her crossover was going to work, but around the mid-point
of the season we are were all hooked with varying degrees of enthusiasm
(my roommate quite vocally claimed to hate the show yet carefully
taped it every week. She may be a bit of a masochist.)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Interesting, I had the opposite reaction -- s'kat, 14:14:27
06/19/03 Thu
Had a similar situation. I gave up on it periodically in S1 and
S2, didn't get hooked again until Loyalty. Certainly didn't consider
taping it until Loyalty. And I know a lot of non-internet fans
who got interested for the first time after Loyalty. So I guess
to each their own.
For the five people Q mentioned giving up on it, I can come up
with five who got interested and not just because of Faith. Same
with S4 Btvs. So I guess, it really is true, no matter how strongly
you feel about something - there is going to be someone out there
who feels exactly the opposite.
[> [> yes, the term that
came to mind -- mamcu, 07:29:18 06/20/03 Fri
was indeed soap-opera, even in the acting styles. When Cordy would
appeal to Connor on the basis of their little family, I couldn't
believe it was the same actress who'd been so excellent on BtVS.
And others were similar. I accuse writers, directors, and actors
for that.
[> I love Season 4!
-- Scroll, 11:40:06 06/19/03 Thu
I rate Angel S4 right up there with Buffy S3. But
I love all the AtS seasons, and feel that each flowed smoothly
into the next. Taken all together, the series has great resonance
and terrific overarching themes of home, family, redemption and
forgiveness, and choices/free will vs. destiny.
Season 1
Some really terrific eps; my favourites are "Room w/a Vu",
"I Will Remember You", "Hero", "Somnambulist",
"I've Got You Under My Skin", "Five by Five/Sanctuary",
and "To Shanshu in L.A.". And I thought all the main
characters were developed in an organic, meaningful way. Angel's
mission and the statement of the show was put forth strongly and
given resonance, especially through Faith. Kate and Lindsey were
great secondary characters, Wolfram & Hart were set up to be the
most versatile, long-term villains in the Jossverse.
Season 2
Loved the Darla arc. Loved the ep "Darla". Some truly
spectacular eps this season. Felt this season did a good job of
integrating Gunn into the gang, and of developing both Cordelia
and Wesley as agents independent of Angel. Loved Angel's epiphany
and his reconciliation with the Fang Gang. I really enjoyed Virginia,
and Lindsey and Kate's respective resolutions, though I miss all
three actors and wish they could make cameos next season! The
Pylea arc had me scratching my head a bit, but I enjoyed it and
I loved the Groosalugg. Fred was interesting too :)
Season 3
Perhaps my least favourite season, cuz this is when I started
to see a shift towards plot over characterisation. I felt there
was some ball-dropping with Cordelia's character, and her behaviour
in later S3 had me scratching my head a lot. The Angel/Cordy
pairing isn't my favourite, and IMHO, not very well set up and/or
written. But again, I loved Darla and the introduction of Connor.
I absolutely adored Holtz and Justine, and the Wesley-kidnaps-Connor
arc. The Wes/Lilah and the Angel/Connor dynamics of the last few
eps were what saved much of Season 3 for me. Still, I understand
that a lot of S3 was set-up for S4. You have to think of it as
a two-part novel.
Season 4
My favourite season, not just for plot but for characterisation
as well. Gunn's anger/irritation at being stuck as only "muscle",
Fred's sweetness and loyalty mixed with vengeance and neediness.
Cordel