June 2003 posts
A random thought on AtS s5
& Spike ;-(does that mean no one will look at this?) -- deeva,
11:04:38 06/19/03 Thu
I'm sure that someone has already posted about this but I'm much
too lazy to check and see for myself and I've been away for 10
whole days. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
So while I was in LA for work, in the boredom that overtook me
at times, a thought occured to me about Spike. Perhaps, whoever
the prophecy makers/PTB's are, what if they bring Spike back as
like another Whistler? He would probably hate that for a bit.
And that would allow for the chafing of characters between Spike
and Angel. Can you imagine Spike as the representative for the
PTB's. It intrigues me while cracking me up at the same time.
Sadly, this is my mental contribution to the board. *sigh* When
I grow up I wanna be just like:
a.) d'H
b.) Rah
c.) Masq
d.) Rufus
e.) some other lovely board luminaries of big braindom!
f.) all of the above!
[> Re: A random thought
on AtS s5 & Spike<-(does that mean no one will look at this?)
-- s'kat, 11:35:52 06/19/03 Thu
No, it hasn't really been broached, but it did occur to me as
I began re-watching Angel Season 1 episodes and after reading
some of the stuff I've read about next season's Angel.
According to Whedon - they plan on going back to a more episodic/serial
combo format - much like the format they started with in Season
1's earlier episodes. Except the B plot stories will come from
within W&H itself, the law firm they are now controlling, as
opposed to visions. This is actually much better - since the source
of conflict is also the source of outside stories. The PTB visions
wasn't really that helpful - since they didn't really provide
a broad enough focus for B plots or provide a means of letting
characters outside of just Angel pursue those plots.
Also the conflict had be generated more internally amongst the
characters. ie. Love Triangles, etc. Now that we have W&H being
the workplace - the possibilities are far less limiting.
So where does this leave Spike? Well, it's a little silly to have
Wes, Fred, Gunn, Lorn, and Angel constantly discussing "how
can we work for W&H" or "second-guessing themselves".
Just as in Season 1 - it would have been a little silly to have
Angel constantly talking to himself or Cordelia about how he has
to get out more. You needed an outside force prodding him. When
Doyle died. The outside force became Cordelia. IT also helps if
the outside force is reluctantly doing so. Doyle was the reluctant
hero - doomed to help Angel. Angel is the Champion who wants to
lurk not get involved. The conflict between Doyle and Angel caused
tension - which made the show humorous and gave us a reason to
wonder about Angel at times. Now Cordelia can no longer play reluctant
hero - she did that for a few seasons.
And Wes can't do it. So you need to introduce someone new - someone
with a history with Angel, but he will in a sense be the cattle
prod. When Angel goes down this alley?
We need someone to yank him and say? Whatcha doing that for?
We need a couter-weight to Lilah. Previously that was Doyle and
Cordy. Now it's probably going to be Spike. (Can't be Cordy she
turned evil and well CC wants to move on and do other things).
At any rate, that's my theory. Be interesting to see how it plays
off.
[> [> Re: A random thought
on AtS s5 & Spike<-(does that mean no one will look at this?)
-- deeva, 13:04:13 06/19/03 Thu
hmmm...Spike is the cattle prod. Scary as it sounds, and perhaps
just as revealing about me, it sounds like something I've read
in a Spangel slash fic.
Aside from my naughty thoughts, I am thinking along the lines
that you are, s'kat. I think that that is what Spike will be.
And gathering from what very little there is to go on at this
point, he will not come back human but he will most certainly
be there. So a rep. of the PTB's sounds like the way to go in
my mind.
And another thing, JM has just said in a Q&A at a convention that
he will be filming in September. When does production for "Angel"
start? Just wondering about the scheduling.
[> [> [> From what
I've heard, "Angel" starts shooting on July 28 --
afterlife, 13:55:44 06/19/03 Thu
I'm not 100% on that, but I do know that shooting for last season
started in late July, so I'm reasonably certain that the date
is accurate.
[> [> [> Re: A random
thought on AtS s5 & Spike<-(does that mean no one will look
at this?) -- s'kat, 13:59:20 06/19/03 Thu
According to fanforum and some other things I've read, Angel is
going to start filming in July instead of August this year and
they go on hiatus in September. Then start filming again late
October - just like they did in Btvs last year. Which means our
first Angel episode will premiere much earlier this year than
it did last year - probably around mid September as opposed to
October. (YES!!)
Last year Angel started filming in August, because of Firefly
and Btvs and the change in producers/head writers.
This year - since it's the only show ME has outside of the potential
Firefly movie - filming is starting sooner. So, no JM's filming
of the movie in September shouldn't affect his appearences on
Ats at all.
I'm hoping he doesn't show up human at this stage - just because
I'm not sure they need another human in the group.
Although that would probably be the easiest and most convient
way to bring him back, since half the audience expects it any
way. But I'm sick of the whole Shanshue thing - so sick I'm starting
to root for HArmony to be the one who shanshues. Why? Because
I'm evil. ;-) My one hope? Don't make him a ghost. Please no ghosts!!
[> [> [> [> LOL!
I hereby call to order the 1st meeting of HARM ("Harmony
Achieves Redemption" Militia)! -- cjl, 14:12:48 06/19/03
Thu
Harmony drags Angel and Spike on a shopping spree along Rodeo
Drive, where she finally finds the Prada bag that matches her
lilac pumps. Having achieved her lifelong goal as a souled vamp,
she immediately shanshus....
"BLOODY HELL!"
We at HARM (a subsidiary of MOLOJ) dedicate ourselves to the redemption
of Harmony Kendall and to the idea that Mutant Enemy and the viewing
audience should stop taking this "shanshu" stuff so
seriously and just enjoy the show.
Anybody wanna join?
[> [> [> [> [>
Sign me up, baby! Shanshu, schmanshu! So over that. --
deeva, not crazy about beating a dead horsie, 15:06:56 06/19/03
Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
Count me in! -- Alison, 16:00:00 06/19/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
I'm there! -- d'Herblay, 17:27:29 06/19/03 Thu
Though I don't really care that much about redemption; I just
wanted an excuse to link to the video ("Her
Platinum Baby") that made me a Spike/Harmony 'shipper.
[> [> [> [> [>
Yep a member too...also on S/H -- s'kat, 21:03:56 06/19/03
Thu
At this point in time - I'm beginning to really want a Spike/Harmony
ship. Maybe even have a parody of the whole
S/B and B/A thing but with Harmony? I wonder if ME would dare
do that. Naw...can't envision it. Cowards. Bet you guys glad I'm
not writing these shows. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
I was born ready to join HARM! -- Rob, 22:00:45 06/19/03
Thu
[> ooh! -- ponygirl,
13:01:14 06/19/03 Thu
I actually had an incredibly weird thought the other week while
rewatching Becoming. As a series ender for AtS some sort of time-travelin'/shape-shifting/accent-changing
mojo is performed on Spike and he actually becomes Whistler. All
of Whistler's lines are cryptic enough that they can be assumed
to have layers of hidden meaning underneath. And coupled with
my weird idea of Spike as the one to set in motion these major
events in Angel's life? Hello to poignancy and irony!
I said it was strange, but I just had to share :)
[> depends how spoilery
it is (how spoilery is it?) -- anom, who pressed "end"
as soon as the post appeared, 13:23:24 06/19/03 Thu
[> [> Just has well know
casting spoiler for A5 -- s'kat, 14:02:15 06/19/03 Thu
All we know is Spike will be on Angel next year. That's it.
Everything else is spec.
Not that spoilery. There haven't been any definite spoilers released
on this topic yet. Just lots of random rumors.
[> Mostly spec-alicious,
not particularly spoilery, except casting-wise. -- Rob, 13:35:43
06/19/03 Thu
I'm awash
in a sea of transfusion -- Valheru, 14:51:02 06/19/03 Thu
Honestly, I'm not trying to argue with you about this. I feel
like everyone else "got" it and I'm left behind saying,
"Huh?" I guess I'm just trying to explain how I viewed
things, hoping that someone will come along and explain where
I screwed up.
Handling rejection is Spike's biggest fault, I agree totally.
But it's Anne's specific rejection that doesn't seem to fit for
me. I feel like it further complicated William's transformation
into Spike where it was already complex, and it muddied an explanation
that was clear to me before.
Again, the first problem I have is probably due to a false assumption
I made from FFL. I assumed that, given how much Spike seemed to
hate William, he would have had a very negative reaction to William's
life--that he would either abandon it completely or destroy it.
So the idea that he went home to retrieve his mother, to embrace
the most important figure in William's life, runs completely contradictory
to what I expected.
Secondly, I think VampWilliam's decision to "save" his
mother is entirely non-vampiric. We have been shown before (from
Angelus, Darla, the Wishverse VampScoobies, even Harmony) that
vampires are fundamentally twisted, evil versions of the humans
they were. They aren't just humans without souls, they are soulless
demon/human hybrids. For instance, Faith had a vampire's "want,
take, have" sense of freedom, but she acted out of the mindset
that what she was doing was right. Vampires act out of the mindset
that what they are doing is evil. They aren't simply freed of
moral compunction, to sometimes do evil out of selfishness, but
instead they are inclined to always do evil out of instinct. It's
the old "demonic influence." So vampires should always
(or at least, usually) do the wrong thing. Their desires should
always be evil, not just un-good.
But LMPTM shows us a VampWilliam who doesn't act very much like
a vampire. Dru sires him, he rises, comes home to eat the help--everything
seems fine at first. But it's the fact that he wants to save his
mother that befuddles me. In this instance, his desire is good,
not evil, even though the result is evil. Sure, he wants to save
Anne for himself, it's a selfish want, but he goes about it totally
altrustically. He wants her to be with himself as much as he wants
himself to be with her.
How is this different from his relationship with Dru? After all,
as we know from the Judge, Spike does retain his humanity. But
that's the thing, y'see...romance was set up as Spike's only retention
of humanity. In all other things, he's just like any other vampire.
Wasn't that the whole crux of S6? That all of Spike's "good"
actions were in pursuit of Buffy and everything else he did was
evil?
VampWilliam, to me, acted like an unsouled human, not a vampire.
He seemed to retain a butt-load of his humanity, compared to what
we see of him as Spike. It's like he didn't have a demon in him
to skew his every want to be extreme.
That leads me into the creation of Spike. After all his rejections
as a human (that we see in FFL), VampWilliam's greatest desire?
His mother. Huh? "William of London, you've just been given
immortality, complete moral freedom, and cool powers! What do
you want to do with all this?" "I want my mommy."
That doesn't seem at all the sort of direction FFL was heading
in. But still, assume that that is what they had in mind for William
all along. When does VampWilliam become Spike? After his mother's
rejection.
So VampWilliam naturally decides to become Spike, Torturer of
Mothers, right? He goes out, finding every mother he can, impales
them with railroad spikes, and yells, "How dare you not love
your children! You bitch!" No. VampWilliam becomes Spike,
the avenger of all the wrongs he endured in FFL. He attacks the
upper-class that ridiculed him and he preys on women who scorned
him. Where is the exaggerrated vampire revenge against his mother?
After all, if it's specifically maternal rejection that drives
him to become Spike, shouldn't that be Spike's primary focus?
Again, I say that LMPTM works very well in a lot of places, but
there are too many places where it seems off-kilter. It doesn't
take much to fix, either. Have VampWilliam go to save his mother
after he takes his revenge against Cecily and the partygoers.
Show that his transformation into Spike began before his mother's
rejection. But as the placement is now, it makes everything in
William's human life secondary and it water's-down the meaning
of Spike's demon/humanity struggle in S5/6.
Or maybe I'm just very very dense. =)
[> Err...that was a reply
to Rook's LMPTM post. Stupid Voynak -- Valheru (and the transfusion
keeps on comin'), 14:53:00 06/19/03 Thu
[> Re: I'm awash in a sea
of transfusion -- Rook, 16:23:22 06/19/03 Thu
>>So the idea that he went home to retrieve his mother,
to
>>embrace the most important figure in William's life, runs
>>completely contradictory to what I expected.
Well, most of what I assume about vamps comes from Angel,but's
exactly what I would have expected from seeing other vamps. Take
Angel: He's fighting with his father, not having a very good relationship
at all. So his first instinct is to destroy him and the family
he's so concerned about.
And take Angelus' obsession with Buffy. As disgusted as he is
by the Angel/Buffy relationship, he doesn't just want to kill
her outright, he wants to torture her. The thing is, that this
mental torture isn't just cruelty, it's Angelus' version of courting,
as we can see from what he did to Dru. Even though he's lost his
soul, he's continuing his version of a romantic relationship with
Buffy, as twisted as it may be.
Another example is Vamp Willow/Vamp Xander. Now, we don't see
them get vamped, but we can see that they have a twisted version
of their former relationship. Willow in particular mirrors a lot
of the disgust for her former self that Spike does, maybe even
more, but she still wants a relationship with Vamp Xander.
So Spike seeking to continue a relationship with his mother isn't
surprising to me at all, it's what I'd expect based on other vamps
that we've gotten to see as both human and vamp. But Spike has
very specific problems with rejection, so...
>> After all, if it's specifically maternal rejection that
>>drives him to become Spike, shouldn't that be Spike's
>>primary focus?
That's the thing. The Spike persona is NOT a vehicle for revenge.
It's a vehicle for seeking acceptance. It's camoflague, a defense
rather than an offense. Spike is the persona William adopts so
that he will be accepted...he's like the nerdy kid that gets a
new haircut, a leather jacket and a hot rod. He's not doing it
to hurt the cool kids that rejected him...he's doing it to be
one of them, thereby avoiding their rejection.
[> Re: I'm awash in a sea
of transfusion -- sdev, 02:08:44 06/20/03 Fri
"I assumed that, given how much Spike seemed to hate William,
he would have had a very negative reaction to William's life--that
he would either abandon it completely or destroy it."
In FFL I see Spike rebel against William's repressed personality.
He is not looking for acceptance anymore. He wants to live by
his own rules, now, in the experiential moment, with everything
on the line.
Now he enjoys fights-fists and fangs. William didn't even want
to hear about disturbing news of disappearances. He makes fun
of the "frilly cuffs and collar crowd," his former peers.
Where he used to be the artist, a poet, he scoffs at Angelus'
kill as artistry. He adopts a lower class cockney speech in contrast
to his former polished poetic phrases.
On the other hand he still retains his profound ability to love
which somehow survives his transition to vampire. In fact this
emotion is also freed from the repressed state it was in with
Cecily, and he now is free to elevate his feelings of love to
a raison d'etre. He proudly becomes Love's Bitch with a swagger.
Unlike Angel who killed his family, Spike, because he still retains
his feelings for his mother, reacts in the opposite way. Love
dictates much of who he is whether it is sexual love or love of
a son for his mother.
I don't see inconsistency here it in fact leads back to the humanity
the Judge sensed in Season Two with Dru and forward to his feelings
for Buffy in Seasons 5&6, and is perfectly consistent with
his persona in LMPTM.
Season 8
-- Brian ( I can see it now), 15:39:43 06/19/03 Thu
A bedroom in a castle, somewhere in England. (Later, we find out
that it belongs to Giles)
Buffy enters through the large windows. She has her slayer gear
on. She looks as if she has been in a hell of a fight.
Tea aside, those English vamps must be tough. As Buffy prepares
for bed, we hear a distant scream. Suddenly Willow rushes into
the room:
Willow
Buffy, I think I just saw a ghost! In my room. And I think it
looked like Tara.
Just as she says "Tara" Xander rushes into the room
carrying sword.
Xander
What? Who? What! Tara!?
Buffy
(Trying to be compassionate and understanding) Are you sure you
weren't dreaming?
[> The Core Four in a Haunted
English Castle? This stuff writes itself. -- cjl, 21:13:18
06/19/03 Thu
[Wyndham Castle. Breakfast. Xander and Giles are sitting at a
small corner of the main dining table. A servant approaches with
trepidation. Xander practically rubs his hands in gleeful anticipation.]
XANDER: Ah, Bentley.
BENTLEY: Yes, Mr. Harris?
XANDER: Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
BENTLEY: Yes, sir.
XANDER: Twist of lemon, two sugars.
BENTLEY: Your usual Milky Way bar, sir?
XANDER: You read my mind, Bentley. Good man. [Raps table twice
for emphasis. Giles rolls his eyes.]
BENTLEY: And you, Master Giles?
[Giles is intently studying an ancient, leatherbacked tome.]
GILES: Nothing, Bentley, thank you.
[Bentley exits, giving Xander the fish eye as he goes. He passes
Buffy and Willow as they approach the table. Xander's light mood
instantly disappears; Giles almost instinctively rises from his
seat, concerned.]
GILES: Willow, are you all right?
WILLOW (trying to smile): Yeah. I guess. Kinda shook up, but I
think I'm OK.
XANDER: Did you find....I-I mean, did you see...I mean--
BUFFY: Nothing. Did a full perimeter sweep of the castle.
XANDER: No offense, Buff, but I don't think ghosts are impressed
by full perimeter sweeps. [Off Buffy's look] Hey, not that your
sweeps aren't impressive...
WILLOW: I-I don't know. I'm not even sure it WAS Tara. I couldn't
see anything clearly. Maybe it's just sleeping in a new place,
and I had a bad dream, and--
BUFFY: Will, that's not what you told me.
GILES: Willow?
WILLOW: It felt right. It felt like Tara.
BUFFY: That's good enough for me.
GILES: Agreed. [Drawing the others' attention to the book] I-I've
been researching the history of Wyndham castle. Apparently, when
Wesley's great-great-great-grandfather sold it in 1874, there
were rumors that he was unloading it AND the title associated
with the land because it was haunted.
XANDER: The castle or the title?
GILES: Both. Pay attention, Xander.
[Bentley approaches with Xander's tea. Giles flips to sections
he's bookmarked.]
GILES: According to local records, the first sign of an active
poltergeist was in 1897, when the castle owner was found dead
in the gaming room, virtually bisected by an antique pool table.
BUFFY: A world of ew.
BENTLEY (to Xander): Your tea, sir. [Exits.]
[Two shot: Xander is listening intently to Giles' exposition,
and he doesn't see Anya sitting on the chair next to him.]
ANYA: Xander, you know the doctor said you should cut down on
the sugar.
XANDER: Ahn, will you let it go?
[The conversation in the room freezes. Xander realizes what he
just said. He looks over to where he heard the voice--the chair
is empty. He's stunned, to say the least.]
BUFFY: Xander, what did you say?!
XANDER: Anya.
GILES: Xander, are you sure?
XANDER: It was her. It was her voice. Oh god. [Trembles]
BUFFY: Giles, what are we dealing with here?
GILES: I'm not sure. But something in this castle is aware of
us. Knows us. And I think this is all just beginning...
[> [> Brilliant! And
yet... -- dub ;o), 21:52:19 06/19/03 Thu
Can ya kinda 'splain how somebody gets bisected by a pool table?
A pool cue, now that I could see...
;o)
[> [> [> Ahem...
-- KdS, 03:29:34 06/20/03 Fri
As those of us who have ever seen I Bought a Vampire Motorcycle
know, it is quite possible to bisect a person with a fairly blunt
object (like a table) if they're trapped against a wall and you
push hard enough.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Ahem... -- Cactus Watcher, 06:29:15 06/20/03 Fri
Dub's, right. The amount of force would be horrendous, easily
enough to blow the victim un-bisected through the wall with the
table following. Unless the wall were heavy armor plate not even
a metal wall would be rigid enough to work. A titanium wall a
few inches thick would work, if you've got millions of dollars
to spent on the wall, first. The moral? Not a good idea to use
horror movies for physics lessons. If you want bisection think
thin 'weapons,' very thin.
[> [> [> "From
beside you, it devours...." -- LadyStarlight, 08:32:27
06/20/03 Fri
Okay, now I have this picture in my head of a pool table, with
a mouth full of teeth, chasing some poor schlub around the billiards
room....
Must recaffinate myself now. Screen all icky. (also watched Beer
Bad last night)
[> [> Never said it was
a "clean" cut -- cjl, 07:32:57 06/20/03 Fri
Giles said "virtually" bisected. He wasn't actually
cut in two, but close enough to conjure a truly gruesome image.
(It did conjure up a gruesome image, didn't it?)
The 1897 report from the local constabulary probably read as follows:
"Victim was found pinned against the wall of gaming room
by pool table. Table was somehow propelled by tremendous force,
crushing the victim against at the waist, and causing severe damage
to the wall itself. Evidence indicates an individual with great
physical strength. No leads at the moment."
I can't believe this. I'm fanwanking my own story.
Is this pathetic or what?
Hurray for
"Him"'s first half! -- shambleau, 15:42:43 06/19/03
Thu
Since even those who like "Him" generally pan the first
half, I thought I'd post a defense. Although BtVS is nominally
about despised outsiders, we are actually presented with the coolest
kids in school. The scoobs are occasionally taunted by the other
kids, but we never see the emotional devastation or the humiliation
that outsiders in high school regularly go through. Yes, we've
got Cordy's "softer side of Sears" comment for Willow,for
example, but we don't see it affecting Willow in any significant
way.
In fact, I'd argue that one of the weaknesses of the Dark Willow
arc came about because we never saw Willow actually harmed by
being an outsider. There were few indication that she felt bad
about her situation in the earlier seasons. She seemed to accept
that she was a nerd and low on the totem pole without being damaged
by it.
Contrast that with Dawn's experience, both in "Lessons"
and "Him". After her cheer try-out fiasco, she's holed
up in her room and devastated in a completely believable way.
Now, THAT'S high school. This is BtVS in Freaks and Geeks territory.
Humiliation, thy name is adolescence. This is the one area growing
up that BtVS had neglected and I applaud them for going to a place
that was so painful that many viewers couldn't take it.
I'm not a fan of scenes of humiliation usually, but I think that
it was not only necessary, but takes its place with the other
button-pushing scenes that cause such a fuss among the fans and
that showcase how daring a show this was.
[> Re: Hurray for "Him"'s
first half! -- Rook, 15:57:09 06/19/03 Thu
I agree. Dawn was always a much more credible teenager than any
of the original scoobies...not just because she really was one,
but because she was allowed to behave like a real teenager, faults
and all.
Re: the UPN/Drowned
Spike subthread which literally got archived... -- OnM, 17:09:54
06/19/03 Thu
... just as I was responding to it! Sheesh!!
Anyway, Finn Mac Cool posted about UPN putting the kibosh on dunking
Spike in a pool of holy water. This sounds perfectly reasonable
to me, but then how do you explain the following from the shooting
script?
***
WE ARE UNDER WATER
We see SPIKE STRUGGLING AS A HAND HOLDS HIM UNDER. The water is
green, murky, and he fights
and fights... But loses. His body goes still. Silent. Almost peaceful.
NOW WE'RE ABOVE GROUND
And we see that THE UBERVAMP: is holding SPIKE beneath the surface
of a filthy pool of water that bubbles
at the surface of the cavern. He tosses Spike's body from the
water, and it hits the floor with a sick wet SPLAT.
Lies there.
Drusilla/First watches from a distance, pleased. Speaks to the
UBERVAMP:
Drusilla/FE: That's why our kind make such good dollies.
( Spike suddenly SPUTTERS TO LIFE. He coughs up water, then gasps
horribly - fighting to get the water out
of his lungs. )
Drusilla/FE: Hard to kill.
( Spike stares at Drusilla/First, trying to find his breath but
it won't come. )
Drusilla/FE: Tried to enlighten little Buffy, didn't you?
Spilled our secrets like seed...
( Now Dru gets close, nearly whispers. )
Drusilla/FE: But you forgot. I say what you tell, and what
you know. I say when this is over. (menacing)
And I'm not done with you yet, not nearly.
She nods to the UBERVAMP, who violently shoves Spike back in the
water - to be drowned all over again.
***
Maybe we should just go back to what I postulated in my ep review,
which was that Ubie peed in the water first.
;-)
[> Maybe that's a version
of the shooting script LATER than the one they showed UPN
-- d'Herblay, 17:14:34 06/19/03 Thu
[> My fanwank of this shooting
script goes like this... -- Scroll, 22:19:52 06/19/03 Thu
The First Evil, knowing that drowning a vampire would be a completely
ineffectual method of torture, magically makes Spike human for
the few days he was being held prisoner in those caves. As a HUMAN,
Spike of course can be drowned quite easily, and must pant and
wheeze and gasp for every breath. Thus the whole hold-his-head-under-water-till-he-can't-come-up-for-the-third
time thing actually works as torture instead of, y'know, as a
way to moisturise the cool alabaster skin of his razor-sharp cheekbones.
Spackle, spackle :)
[> [> Even easier
-- CW, 06:07:58 06/20/03 Fri
The FE just makes Spike breathe for the duration. Vamps suffer
the same kinds of pain as the living. So water in lungs equals
pain. Since Spike can't die from it, the FE can do it again and
again.
Too bad nobody at ME thought about it, before they showed it.
The script for this one and the scene in a later ep where Wood
glances at Spike in the rearview mirror, both show that script
editing wasn't at it's best last season. ME really needed some
fan who cared about the mythology to be a technical adviser. ;o)
[> [> [> How about
this idea -- OnM, 08:24:10 06/20/03 Fri
It's a given that Spike is different than most vampires. We know
he likes human food, and eats it regularly even though he doesn't
need to. He also smokes, which requires the action of breathing
even if he doesn't need that either.
Over the course of a long period of time, Spike has gotten so
used to breathing that it is now an involuntary reflex. Thus,
he can't really help himself.
Re: fan advisors-- Ya know CW, ME could have just asked us
for a solution. I think we should start charging. Masq! Business
opportunity here!
;-)
[> [> [> [> Why
stop there? -- CW, 11:47:14 06/20/03 Fri
Masq could be philosophy advisor.
You, OnM, could be advisor on background music and movies to reference.
Rob could speak for everybody who loves the show, when ME needs
cheering up.
Yabyumpan could be Wiccan senstivity advisor.
Rufus could advise on the selection of future chocolate references.
HonorH could be the executive fasion advisor.
I could be story arc structural advisor...
I'm sure there'd be plenty of room on the Angel payroll for everybody!
[> [> [> Mirrors and
Crosses -- mamcu, 09:55:35 06/20/03 Fri
The whole mirror and cross thing seemed to go the way of garlic
in the later seasons, though. Aside from Spike sizzling on the
cross in Beneath You, I don't remember much about these traditional
things being using--I thought of this when rewatching The Harvest
and Luke's flight from the cross.
Too bad esp. about mirrors. They could have done some neat shots
of reflections of fights, etc., that would have been as good as
the invisible scenes in STSP (SPST?) and Gone.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Mirrors and Crosses -- Valheru, 12:54:33 06/20/03 Fri
Is it me, or did Buffy stop wearing crosses in S7? In S1-3, I
can't even remember an instance where she wasn't wearing one (even
to the point where she wore a cross that was smaller than my pinky-nail
in The Zeppo). She wore them most of the time in S4-5,
maybe a little less in S6. The only time I can recall her with
a crucifix in S7 was CWDP.
[> [> [> Re: Even
easier -- Malandanza, 12:12:33 06/20/03 Fri
I don't want to sound too much like warren on Moonraker,
but spackle all you want -- the drowning Spike scene was inexcusable.
[> [> 'K, nice try, but
then how do you explain... -- OnM, 08:15:31 06/20/03 Fri
...this part (bold/italics mine):
Drusilla/FE: That's why our kind make such good
dollies.
( Spike suddenly SPUTTERS TO LIFE. He coughs up water, then gasps
horribly - fighting to get the water out
of his lungs. )
Drusilla/FE: Hard to kill.
[> [> [> Jumping in
with the spackle trowel loaded for bear.... -- LadyStarlight,
08:26:01 06/20/03 Fri
(finally got to watch Pangs last night)
What if the FE magicked the chip to make Spike believe
he was human?? Or even fiddled with his brain for the same result?
Vampiric stamina, but the amusing human reactions...it's all good.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Jumping in with the spackle trowel loaded for bear.... --
Abracapocus, 10:29:23
06/20/03 Fri
Personally, I never thought this one was such a bad "slip".
Is it really spackling when the scenario makes sense to you? Or
am I just kidding myself? ;-)
1) The First knows that Spike can't drown, as does Ubie (assuming
the Turok-Han have that much intellectual awareness). Spike knows
he can't drown. This actually makes the torture *more* effective:
you can't die. There is no release from this. We're just toying
with you, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
As others have pointed out, breath is required for smoking and
for speaking (air over the vocal cords), and Spike is in the habit
of doing plenty of both. It's not that vampires *can't* breathe,
just that they don't need oxygen to continue their unlives. [Angel's
"I have no breath" line in "Prophecy Girl"
is not entirely accurate, and is especially amusing since his
chest is heaving with distress just before and just after he says
it. Maybe he just doesn't exchange oxygen for CO2 when he "breathes"?
spacklespacklespackle]
It's still no fun to be beaten up and have your head forced into
that nasty pool (not as nasty on-screen as in the script, but
then they needed visibility while filming), esp. when you're already
weakened by previous pummeling and mockery.
2) Spike, much though I love him, is not the brightest bulb. If
he had had his wits about him during the torture session, he would
simply have stopped his breathing "reflex" as soon as
his head hit the water. It could have been a welcome break, even--refreshin'
(altho being bent sharply over the rough rock surface like that
couldn't have been comfortable either, esp. given the likely broken
ribs, etc.).
I'm with the people who assume that Spike inadvertently "drew
breath" while underwater, which is how the water got in his
lungs--making the torture that much more agonizing. Again, not
going to kill him, but painful and demoralizing--reinforcing the
First's argument that he is helpless in this situation and might
as well give in. Torture is just as much about inducing despair--breaking
the psyche--as it is about causing pain. ::shudder::
3) Drusilla/The First says "our kind" because The First
is in character. I for one really enjoyed the glimpses we had
of this aspect of The First in season 7: it seems to really get
into being the person it's impersonating. To an extent, it *is*
Warren (groovin' on the Star Wars references), it *is* Drusilla
(groovin' on the visionary madness and sadism), even as it pursues
its own agenda.
I now feel an essay coming on about The First--which I will save
for another post (if I ever get around to it).
Your very own,
Ab
[> [> [> [> [>
I'd very much like to read your First essay, if you get around
to writing it! -- Rob, 10:43:09 06/20/03 Fri
Angel Season
5 speculation (Well Known Casting and Writer Interview Spoilers)
-- Finn Mac Cool, 22:15:17 06/19/03 Thu
Here are the things I expect we will see:
1: Spike will come back in the same sort of way that Lilah did.
The self-sacrafice sort of brought him to the attention of the
PTB, so they select him to be their spokesman in convincing Angel
and Co. to leave Wolfram & Hart. This would be both believable
(if it can work for Lilah, it can work for Spike) and create some
good conflict (Spike arguing with Angel to rejoin the good guys
when he both a) doesn't like the poof, and b) isn't too fond of
being under the PTB's authority in the first place).
2: We'll see more gadgetry. Tim Minear has said "Home"
was designed to work as a Season 5 pilot, so I think there's significance
in Wesley's use of that grappling hook device. I think we'll se
more things like that, and some more advanced ones (we've got
Fred in the high-tech science department, after all). One device
I predict is a solar radiation generator for killing vampires.
3: At some point, Angel will save someone in a dark alley, as
he's wont to do. Then he will try to help her sue her attacker.
Fits in with both the W&H aspect and how this season is supposed
to be so different from the previous four.
4: The first half of the season will be much like what people
have been saying it will be: more standalone, more ensemble, and
more of a light atmosphere. However, by the second half of the
season, that will start to break down. ME's previous attempts
to become more episodic haven't panned out so well (they tried
it with the creation of "Angel" and Season 7 of "Buffy",
and both eventually became incredibly serial). Also, we have Season
7 as evidence for what happens when ME tries to go lighter.
5: Some of Lorne's celebrity clients at W&H will include either
Alyssa Milano, Holly Marie Combs, or Rose McGowan. It would just
be such a surreal moment to have one of the actresses from "Charmed"
appearing on "Angel" as themselves. Besides, it would
be odd if we never saw Lorne with at least a few celebrity clientelle,
and this sort of joke might be the sort of lighter thing ME's
gearing towards.
6: The nature of reality will be an issue. After all, in "Home"
we had the return of Lilah (who we can't be sure is truly resurrected
or just a spirit taking corporeal form), a small set of books
that can become any books you want, Lilah's self-regenerating
contract, and the rewrite of Connor's history. All of these things
really sort of bend reality a bit, and I think that'll be an important
theme or motif for Season 5.
7: Action more in the style of the 60's era "Batman"
TV show. Using "Home" as an example once again, we have
Connor rigging a bunch of people with dynamite; while he threatens
great violence, Angel is able to stop him and no lives are actually
lost. There's also Wesley's fighting in the W&H building; the
way he knocks stuffy looking, business suit clad men out just
seems far less gritty and violent than most of his previous fight
scenes. So, in summary, when I said "Batman" style,
I meant villains who pose the threat of killing lots of people,
but are almost always stopped by the good guys. And, when the
good guys fight, the violence is clean, with no blood or real
brutality.
8: This last one, I don't know where it came from. I can't back
it up with writer interviews or the use of "Home" as
a layout for the season. It's just a gut feeling: Angel will come
face to face with either the Senior Partners or the Powers That
Be (most likely through yet another mystical elevator).
Is there anything I don't have a theory on? Yes: Gunn. I have
NO clue what ME is doing with him. While my predictions may turn
out to be wrong with everything else, with Gunn I can't even predict.
No matter what they do with him, it will be a surprise to me.
Well, that's it. Any other theories for Season 5 out there?
Demon Reproduction,
a philosophical examination (but racy) -- Rochefort, 23:44:56
06/19/03 Thu
We know that vampires have wee-wee's. We've seen them in action
with Angel and we heard Spike's zipper.
But it seems that Demons do not have wee-wee's. Most demons are
naked, but are conspicuously lacking wee-wee's.
The interesting thing is that Vampire wee-wee's seem superfilous
since they reproduce through this "whole sucking thing."
(Buffy, Welcome to the Hell Mouth)
Demon wee-wee's, on the other hand, in the absense of another
form of reproduction, would seem quite necessary. So I was thinking
that this would have been a VERY odd way for evolution to treat
the demonic species.
But then this possible model occured to me. A simple question:
Where do all the demons in Sunnydale come from? Easy. The "Hell
Mouth." It occurs to me that Giles calling it a "Hell
Mouth" might have been a euphamism to protect that young-at-the-time-scoobies.
The Hell Mouth is actually a big demon womb. The demons are born
from the earth.
This explains why there are always different demons down there
every time it's opened. Depends who fertilizes it. Spike's declaration
that it's always about blood is probably another euphamism. But
one way or another, the hell mouth always needs to be fertalized
every time it is opened. Dripping blood on it, etc. This gives
new meaning, does it not, to Giles's confused explanation that
the Master had been trying to open the gates to hell when he'd
been stuck like a cork. Probably by the time it made it to t.v.,
we have blood as fertilization and the Master walking around not
stuck, but I think that probably the Master was actually quite
literally stuck like a cork in a bottle while fertalizing the
"hell mouth."
Also, in Doomed, the demons that try to open the hell mouth simply
by jumping into it were clearly some sort of large walking around
spermitizoa demons. This theory clearly has some merit.
Rochefort
[> On the evidently absent
demon wee-wees -- d'Herblay, 00:17:15 06/20/03 Fri
Most demons are naked, but are conspicuously lacking wee-wee's.
This reminds me of a conversation I had at that historic salon
of modern-day philosophes, the Vancouver meet, where someone
(whose name is withheld to protect her identity but I strongly
suspect of being either Little Bit or Lady Starlight) argued that
while Barney (the singing purple dinosaur) has a name that suggests
maleness, he is evidently naked and evidently lacking.
To this I responded with the assertion that Barney's lack of conspicuous
genitalia is the one paleontologically accurate aspect of his
presentation, as a male Tyrranosaur would, when not actively copulating,
withdraw his penises (both of them) within his body where they
could not be seen. To use a less speculative example: most snakes
are naked, but are conspicuously without wee-wees, which does
not mean they do not have less conspicuous wee-wees. In fact,
I can't think of any non-mammalian species with conspicuous male
genitalia. Many demons are, of course, reptilian in appearance.
To change, but not improve, the subject, Rah has brought to my
attention the story of a British power company, Powergen,
which has recently expanded into the Italian market. It has taken
the local name Powergen Italia, and is now the proud possessor
of the URL http://www.powergenitalia.com/.
[> [> Re: On the evidently
absent demon wee-wees -- Retread, 05:53:19 06/20/03 Fri
It's Friday morning and raining here. Again. And we've been promised
more rain for the week-end. Again. Nonetheless, I have to wipe
coffee off my screen as soon as I can stop this hysterical laughter.
Thanks, guys, for the metaphorical sunshine.
[> [> Re: On the evidently
absent demon wee-wees -- Anneth, 10:14:17 06/20/03 Fri
To change, but not improve, the subject, Rah has brought to
my attention the story of a British power company, Powergen, which
has recently expanded into the Italian market. It has taken the
local name Powergen Italia, and is now the proud possessor of
the URL www.powergenitalia.com.
I forwarded this to a friend, which got us embroiled in a conversation
about the science of naming things, and eventually culminated
in this:
"i heard an npr interview with one [a 'nameologist' - ed.]
once. he was talking about paradigm shifts in name trends. it
was interesting. a few years ago you wanted your company to sound
hi-tech or biotech, so there were a lot of digi, cy, pharm, etc.
prefixes and a lot of com, con, quest, etc. type suffixes. now
the .com bomb killed that, so the new new trend is longevity +
foresight. i would try to come up with a penis-related modern
business name, but i don't think i want to search for "penis
euphamisms" from the doj network. If it were a law firm it
would be Peter Cockran
William and Balzack, or something.
they watch, you know."
[> Re: Demon Reproduction,
a philosophical examination (but racy) -- Darby, 06:05:23
06/20/03 Fri
The other possibility, culled from the headlines (of obscure paleontological
newsletters, but anyway...), is that demons are offshoots of surviving
dinosaurs, like birds. The dinosaur-demon connection has been
made on more than one occasion, and we might suspect that Joss
has no real clue of the dinosaur-human timeline, science not being
his strong suit.
To follow up on D'Herblay's Tyrannosaur-lizard retractable penis
suggestion, I'll suggest a Tyrannosaur-bird connection. And strangely
enough, the vast majority of XX birds (they do the chromosome
thing the other way 'round) do not have penises. But they seem
to get the job done, often while plummeting from on high, kinda
like Buffy and Spike.
And to follow up on the Powergenitalia thing, yet some more corporate
sexual trivia - as I understand the culture of corporation names,
word and derivation backgrounds (but not website names, apparently)
are exhaustively researched before products are named. Avoiding
lawsuits and embarrassment and suchlike. So if you carry a Cirrus
card from American Express, every time you stick it in your wallet
or insert it into an ATM, somewhere a lowly suit is chortling.
A cirrus is, among other things, a worm penis.
Well this is an odd way to start the day...
[> [> I keep telling
my friends -- mamcu, 06:58:24 06/20/03 Fri
that they really should read this board for the high level of
intellectual discussion. Can we get on to vampire ta-tas now?
[> Consequences of Vampiric
Reproduction -- dmw, 07:01:36 06/20/03 Fri
I like your Hellwomb hypothesis, but I'll address vampiric reproduction
here. The interesting thing is that vampires, despite looking
like mammals, obviously aren't warm-blooded animals who provide
milk to their young. They're something closer to viruses, with
their asexual method of reproduction that requires a living host
of another species.
This indicates that vampires can be an apocalypic thread by themselves:
making the conservative assumption that a vampire can produce
one offspring a day, it would only require 33 days for vampires
to convert the entire human population into vampires. It's true
they'd have no humans to eat after that, but most of the vampires
presented on Buffy are stupid and inexperienced, without the forethought
to present such a disaster. Given the presence of vampires outside
of the Hellmouth, I suspect that older and smarter vampires must
handle their own birth control issues when no slayer is available.
The other implication of vampires not being mammals is that they
have no reason for love. We can love because we're mammals; we
have live young who need to be taken care of. We carry those traits
over into adulthood because we need them to join together to take
care of our young (Freud has this amusingly backwards) and to
be a social group for other reasons (we're also social mammals;
civilization probably couldn't arise from a solitary species).
We have such an instinct for this that we even take other animals
to make them our pets.
Their "young" are immediately capable of taking care
of themselves, though a short lecture on stakes and sunlight would
be helpful. They don't need our instincts for love. It's not clear
how social they are--sometimes they are solitary hunters, other
times they act as a pack under a strong leader. Perhaps by nature
they're solitary predators but something of the human social instinct
remains. It's also interesting that new vampires sometimes strike
out at their former loved ones; perhaps it's the solitary predator
instinct fighting to free itself from social bonds.
[> [> So that means their
apparatus is vestigial? -- mamcu, 09:43:42 06/20/03 Fri
Still with the unhealthy fixation on physical equipment: I guess
they retain whatever their human origins had. Curious that their
gonads would keep working when not needed, while hearts and lungs
don't. And they not only have it, they use it.
We're talking pure vamps here, not souled ones, obviously.
Round Robin:
New Moon Rising/The Yoko Factor/Primeval (with apologies for the
delay) -- Marie, 08:26:19 06/20/03 Fri
New Moon Rising/The Yoko Factor/Primeval- Marie
"Willow-" "Oz-"
"I-" "I-"
Oz held up a hand. "You first."
Willow gave a small, hesitant smile, and nodded towards the kitchen.
"Have you travelled far? Are you hungry? I could rustle up
some chips or something. Full of salty goodness. Um..."
"Not hungry. Maybe a little thirsty, though."
"Oh! Thirsty! Right! Um..." She crossed to the fridge
and, leaning inside, closed her eyes, took a breath.
"Look, Will... I didn't come back here to cause you any problems.
I just sorta thought I ought to bring Buffy the Rock of Naszturshol,
that's all. I want you to know that I'm... well, at peace, I guess,
with everything, and that includes you and Tara. I'm glad you're
happy Willow."
When Willow turned to face him, there were tears in her eyes,
but she was smiling. "Thank you. For telling me that. And
for... well, being Oz, I guess. I've missed you so much..."
Crossing to him, she pulled him into a hug, and didn't see the
pain on his face, as he wrapped his arms around her.
"Ahem.. well, um... drink.. yeah... er - here, diet Coke
okay?"
"Sure."
"Oz, about the wolf thing-"
"It's okay, Will, no new moon rising for a coupla weeks yet."
Buffy stuck her head through the door. "That's good to hear,
but can we get down to business now?" She smiled at her two
friends as she spoke, and crossed the floor to give Oz a hug of
her own. "And did I say - 'Welcome back!'?"
Oz hugged her back, but said nothing.
"Right, now how about the Nasturtium Rock thingy? Watsit
do?"
"Well, that's the thing, Buffy, I'm not altogether sure,
though I know a little about it's history and powers, I was told
that there was more to it. Some powerful magic. Only I don't know
if it's good or bad magic."
"Where did you get it? And can I see it, maybe?"
"Oh. Right." Oz lifted a small leather pouch over his
head and shook something from it to the kitchen countertop. Both
girls bent to look at it and simultaneously reared back, looks
of horror on their faces.
"Eww! That smell! What on earth!" Buffy clamped her
hand over her nose and backed away from the counter.
Oz grinned. "Sorry. Should've warned you. Got it off a Yokofa
c'Tor demon in Tibet. The Yokofa c'Tors are not exactly known
for their sweet fragrance."
Pinching her nostrils together, Willow bent over the stone. "I
was expecting to see a jewel," she said, breathing though
her mouth, "but this is just a rock. A big old grey pebbly
thing."
"That big old grey pebbly thing can apparently tap into some
pretty heavy stuff. Real primeval stuff, y'know?"
"How?"
Well, that's the thing. I had to kill him before he told me that.
Sorry. All I could find out was that something big was headed
the Slayer's way, and that without the Rock of Naszturshol, she
was going to be one very dead Slayer. So here I am."
Buffy placed a comforting hand on Willow's shoulder. "Don't
look so worried, Will. Died twice already. Not going there again."
***
The creature watched them through the kitchen window.
"Third time's the charm, Slayer... ."
____________________________________________________________
(Next: Restless/Buffy vs. Dracula/Real Me)
Out of My Mind
No Place Like Home
Family
Fool For Love
Shadow
Listening To Fear
Into The Woods
Triangle
Checkpoint
Blood Ties
Crush
I Was Made To Love You
The Body
Forever
Intervention
Tough Love
Spiral
The Weight Of The World
The Gift
[> Re: Round Robin: New
Moon Rising/The Yoko Factor/Primeval (with apologies for the delay)
-- LadyStarlight,
08:38:11 06/20/03 Fri
::applauds::
Nice! Loved "the Yoko Factor" bit, wasn't expecting
that at all!
Do you need volunteers for bits?
[> [> Thanks! And of
course! Just claim the next three if you want to join in - all
welcome! -- Marie, 09:03:12 06/20/03 Fri
[> [> [> Oh, if you
need to refresh your memories, I think the rest is on Archive
4 above. -- Marie, 09:11:20 06/20/03 Fri
[> [> [> Ok, I'm in!
-- LadyStarlight, 10:00:43 06/20/03 Fri
So that's Restless, B vs. D, and Real Me. Plus, once this
is finished up, it's going into FC, you realize! ;)
[> [> [> [> here's
what I'd like to do -- mamcu, 10:08:16 06/20/03 Fri
Yay! Another way to waste the time I don't have! Can I do Blood
Ties, Crush, I Was Made To Love You?
[> [> [> [> [>
I think that this is supposed to be written in order of titles.
-- deeva, who will jump in soon, 11:58:59 06/20/03 Fri
Tchaikovsky
talks about himself again! -- TCH, 08:34:21 06/20/03 Fri
Exciting news!!! Well, for me. The Angel Odyssey page (at http://members.fortunecity.com/tchaikovsky)
has been updated, and is now full of all my Odyssey reviews up
to and including 4.18.
Have a play about there. Get lost in nostalgia for the superior
Season{Insert favourite Angel Season Here}. Generally laugh at
the low quality of the html. Like dogs standing on two legs,
it's not that Tchaikovsky builds a web-site well, it's that he's
done it at all...
To Rob: The old thread got archived immediately after I replied
to your question, saying that the last four reviews of Season
Four should be up sometime in early July. So another week or two's
cold turkey.
TCH
[> Re: Tchaikovsky talks
about himself again! -- The Sidereal Coder, 08:40:18 06/20/03
Fri
I'll get the page updated as soon as I can get into ATPo, so's
I can see if the pages load properly.
[> Unfortunately, our brilliant
responses to your posts aren't included. -- cjl, 08:54:15
06/20/03 Fri
But then, it's all about you, isn't it?
[> [> Actually...
-- Tchaikovsky, 08:58:12 06/20/03 Fri
I could put the responses from the archives in- or at least a
link to the archive responses. They're certainly full of brilliant
ideas and explanations, as well as corrections to many of my misunderstandings-
and actually I've never been back to read the posts I couldn't
read before because they were spoilery.
However, I can't even begin to organise this until AtPo is back
online, because I only saved my posts, and so my only path to
the responses would be through the Existential Scoobies site
Thanks for the suggestion
TCH
[> [> [> Urgh!
-- Masq, 10:10:52 06/20/03 Fri
me this morning telling me the DNS problem was fixed but that
it needed to "propogate" and this might mean ATPo will
be back up at different times in different areas.
Well, I managed to bring up the site on my home computer, so I
emailed folks saying it was back up. But now I can't get the site
up on my work computer. So either I brought up a cached version
at home, or it hasn't propogated to my work place yet.
But apparently www.ivyweb.net is dosing the viagra, and we will
"get it up" eventually.
[> [> [> [> Heh
heh...but will the site be blue-tinted? ;o) -- Rob, 10:19:18
06/20/03 Fri
Blue-tinted...viagra...get it? yuk yuk ;o)
[> Congrats TCH! --
ponygirl, 09:04:18 06/20/03 Fri
[> Okay, I guess I can deal
with the wait for new Odysseys...just barely. ;o) -- Rob,
09:11:18 06/20/03 Fri
Taking a cue
from fresne... -- Rob, 10:40:02 06/20/03 Fri
...thought maybe we could organize an "Anya in Season 7"
fic to satisfy those of us who desperately needed more Anya this
year. Theoretically, I don't think we should change the continuity
of the show, but write around it, focusing on Anya. I thought
that perhaps the trip she went on for info in "Dead Girls"
could be a good place to focus on. Maybe it was a journey of self-discovery
as well...leading to her revelations to Andrew in "End of
Days"? What do you guys think?
Should I even ask if fresne or cjl would be on board? ;o)
Rob
[> Possible plotlines for
"Anya's Journey" -- cjl, 10:58:07 06/20/03 Fri
Just off the top of my head:
1. Walkabout in the Nevada desert (guest starring: Oz)
2. "Self-improvement" seminar in San Francisco (guest
starring: Harmony)
3. The Devil and Miss Jenkins (a duel of wits against D'Hoffryn)
[> [> I love all three!
Aargh...what to do? -- Rob, 11:19:20 06/20/03 Fri
[> [> [> Uh, Rob--how
about one each for you, me and another person? -- cjl, 11:25:09
06/20/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> Good
idea! -- Rob, 11:45:50 06/20/03 Fri
For all three "chapters," we should discuss about an
overall arc, so her self-discovery isn't resolved in one of the
stories before another. A "discussion" with D'Hoffryn
at the end would be a nice endcap to lead into Anya telling Andrew
what she's learned about humanity. Or, or, perhaps her meeting
with D'Hoffryn could be posthumous. He could be all gloaty about
her having died, and she can explain to him what she's learned
over the past year and why her death did not mean that her decision
to give up her Vengeance Demon status was a failure, but a reaffirmation
of her own humanity and mortality.
Oz is a great idea, too, because we can do a nice trick of developing
Anya's seasonal arc and giving a good resolution to Oz's
character at the same time.
Logistical question, though...how should we have her going to
these places in the time alotted in the story? We might have to
alter the continuity a little.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
How long (Sunnydale time) was Anya off during research?
-- cjl, 11:55:36 06/20/03 Fri
And between which episodes?
Hate to say this, but there were times I was so bored with Anya's
S7 arc that I didn't pay attention.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: How long (Sunnydale time) was Anya off during research?
-- Rob, 12:20:21 06/20/03 Fri
If we pretty much assume that the realverse time is similar to
Buffyverse time...
We saw her early on in LMPTM for a few moments, when she had her
silly one-liner about Buffy forgiving Spike for everthing he's
done, and scared us all with that evil chicken-head shaped hat
and not-matching outfit. Then Dirty Girls didn't air for three
weeks. And she wasn't in that one. The next one she was in, Empty
Places, didn't air until 2 weeks after Dirty Girls. So we actually
do have about 5 weeks to play with...actually more, if we say
that she left during the timespan of LMPTM. So that's almost 6
weeks. Should be enough time, I think.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Except Willow left for LA in LMPTM -- Finn
Mac Cool, 16:21:46 06/20/03 Fri
Factoring time to get there, time to do her voodoo, and time to
get back to Sunnydale with Faith, there could only have been a
few days between "Lies My Parents Told Me" and "Dirty
Girls". Now, the length of time between "Dirty Girls"
and "Empty Places" is a bit more stretchable. All we
can really be certain of is that it was enough time for Xander
to be released from the hospital. Anyone out there know how long
it takes for someone to be released after severe eye trauma?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> That is true. Darn season 7's time-wonkiness!
-- Rob, 17:47:19 06/20/03 Fri
I guess Anya could have left earlier in the day that Willow was
returning with Faith, or the day before. And that gives us only
2 weeks of leeway. And of course we'll have to squeeze in her
getting the info on the Turok-Han into that chapter, and not just
the main story. So either fresne or I will have to fit that into
the story, or perhaps at the end of the story.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Not too much of a problem -- fresne, 21:11:25
06/20/03 Fri
Well, what I?m thinking would take up about 3-4 days. Since in
my phase, Anya is still focusing on externals to define the internal,
I?d like to have a sense of as little progress as possible, with
humor and a necropolis. However, if she?s going to go straight
from S.F. to the desert, there are probably more contacts at a
city than in the desert. Or maybe not, if it?s a mystic desert.
With paint and stuff. Although, it?d be really funny if she found
out through Harmony?s contacts.
"Harmony has contacts?"
The real question is what would inspire Anya to head out into
the desert. Would you prefer to have that explained in that section,
or have it seeded in the previous section?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Response to fresne and another
question for cjl -- Rob, 22:26:48 06/20/03 Fri
Fresne--I think the best thing would be for you to either drop
a hint perhaps near the end of your chapter, or maybe have one
of the characters suggest she try that. Something like that. Oh,
and since my chapter is following yours, I think I'd prefer to
either read your chapter before starting mine, so I know what
has happened to her before getting to the desert, or I'd at least
like to know what you're planning on doing with Anya and where
she will be, psychologically by the end of your piece.
cjl--So that my story can flow as smoothly as possible into the
start of yours, do you think Anya should "find" herself
in the desert and then have the D'Hoffryn piece be Anya arguing
with him based on what she's learned in the previous two chapters,
or do you think she shouldn't really have everything click together
until the end? I guess it depends on whether the scene takes pre-
or post-death. Before her death, the conversation could have Anya
have the moment of true self-discovery before coming to her "yay!
humanity" speech in "End of Days" and her sacrifice
in "Chosen." If it takes place afterwards, I assume
it would be after everything's clicked and she argues her point,
why she did what she did, what she learned in her travels, etc.
Of course, that's for you to suss out since it's your chapter.
Just as soon as you know what you want to do for sure, it would
really help me just figure out where best to maneuver her in the
story. Of course, I hope that in the end she ends up maneuvering
me more than the other way around. Anya on a vision quest in the
desert, running into Oz practically writes itself.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> To Rob and Fresne, re:
"The Devil and Miss Jenkins" -- cjl, 08:25:12
06/21/03 Sat
I think I've already decided that the Anya/D'Hoffryn confrontation
will take place post-S7. The story will sum up what Anya learned
during the journey, include her final epiphany, and then--if I
do it right--kick it to another level. Still haven't worked out
all the details, but you don't have to worry about stepping on
my toes. I'll be able to work with whatever is in the previous
two chapters.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Response to Rob --
fresne, 11:09:55
06/21/03 Sat
Okay, I can do that. Ie, drop a hint. Mad Englishmen and ex-demons
in the desert.
As to plot, where she'll be at the end. Mainly, I want her to
have her own cookie dough moment and have a thoroughly frustrating
visit to the conference in S.F. in which the sun does not shine
once. I'd give more plot, but other than knowing that she will
go to Colma, we have a necropolis and I'm going to use it, I'm
not quite sure what she'll do there yet. Perhaps picnic by a faux
pyramid with a giant flashy jewel symbol or a scythe symbol or
perhaps an angel.
I should have something "drafted" by tonight or tomorrow
morning. Where should I send/post it. Here? Email?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You can e-mail it
to me if you want... -- Rob,
12:20:32 06/21/03 Sat
...so we can make all the details a surprise for the board when
we post the whole thing. My e-mail is robwill@optonline.net. I
don't know cjl's.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Good idea! -- fresne, 12:15:42 06/20/03 Fri
Oh, I'm so on board with getting some Anya-age.
You wouldn't necessarily have to mess with the time line. Provided
that you space these sort of events from Selfless forward. The
desert is only a short drive away. S.F. probably about four hours.
(If she drives like a Californian, hops over to I-5 and Sunny-D
is Santa Barbara.) Hmm...Self Help seminar in S.F. "Achieving
Synergy. Actualizing the Real You." That could be pretty
funny.
Although, I'm not sure how useful I would be for collaborative
writing. My style is ummm...distinct. However, if we break things
up a bit, I might be up for some mad cap fun in the city (here
that means S.F.). Perhaps culminating in a trip to Colma.
However, I'd like to encourage, in a general sort of way, that
we (and I mean the collective board - I'm looking at you) not
just think about Anya, much as she needs representation.
A skeleton tree of the season on which we hang whatever the fancy
strikes.
On down, Abracapocus mentioned writing an essay about the FE.
I'd actually be interested in some scenes with the First. After
all, I can spackle away why the FE's plan makes no sense. It is
old. It is chaos. It changes form and personality like corporeals
change clothes. Its plans should be fragmented and frustrated.
It is fragmented and frustrated. It is fragmentation and frustration.
Or, one of the Potentials. Ronia - who I can't like. Please, someone
make me. Or some poor unnamed Potential.
Giles, but you know, where he interacts with the characters. Talking
with Buffy about the emergency kit. Dreaming about mud. I don't
know.
The Guardian. Waiting. Waiting. Actually, this would be fun to
play anywhere in the series.
The imagination spins dizzily.
[> OK, let's set up the
boundaries here.... -- cjl, 13:47:36 06/20/03 Fri
Prologue - Anya and Xander discuss what didn't happen at the wedding.
(Post-Selfless but before NLM). Takers?
Chapter 1 - "Walkabout" by Rob
While researching a mystical object that might shed light on the
mystery of the First, Anya does the Carlos Castaneda mystic quest
thing in the Nevada desert, and bumps into the coolest person
in the universe.
Chapter 2 - "The Real You" by Fresne
Anya attends a self-help seminar in San Francisco and runs into
an old friend. (Sort of.)
Chapter 3 - "The Devil and Miss Jenkins" by cjl
Anya vs. D'Hoffryn in a battle of wits--and why the Lord of Arashmaharr,
after 5000 years around working women, still doesn't understand
humanity.
Chapter 1 - Any time after NLM and before Showtime
Chapter 2 - Any time between Showtime and LMPTM
Chapter 3 - Between Dirty Girls and Empty Places OR post-s7
Feel free to make modifications....
[> [> Excellent...my
head is abuzz with ideas already! -- Rob, 15:34:13 06/20/03
Fri
I have been on desert walks in Arizona, but not in Nevada, so
I would appreciate any tips from people who are more familiar
with the Nevada area so I don't make any major flubs.
But Anya and Oz...quite the meeting of the minds. And so many
levels to play on. Oz's quest for discovering his own humanity
by dealing with his inner beast helps with Anya's search of her
own humanity and rejection of her past-demonness. Oooh oooh, I'm
imagining a vision quest where Anya's spirit guide ends up being
a big floppy, hoppy bunny. And oh, how fun the dialogue will be!
Just so we know who's doing what the three or four of us should
probably do quick story sketches, just to keep the flow good,
so Anya is at the place she needs to be in each narrative in order
to move on to the next.
Thinking about it, cjl, I think that the trip to San Francisco
may be better as the first part. Because the way I see it, Anya
can start off trying a more lightweight type of self-discovery,
this seminar, and then decide she needs something a bit more personal
and spiritually meaningful. Of course she could learn stuff at
the seminar too that help her along the way. Then she tries the
walk in the desert...finally her affirmation of her humanity is
perfectly crystallized with her conversation with D'Hoffryn (which
I personally think would work better after death. There has to
be some flabotanum that would explain how Anya's spirit, after
death could be confronted by D'Hoffryn).
So I would suggest we do...
Prologue
Chapter 1--San Francisco--between BotN and Showtime (this would
work because there was a month gap in the story there)
Chapter 2--Vision Quest in Nevada Desert--between LMPTM and Empty
Places
Chapter 3--D'Hoffryn and Anya--post S7
If you really like the way you had the chapters planned out better,
though, I won't argue. The base ideas, after all, really are yours.
Rob
[> [> [> Looks good
to me. Some further points. -- cjl, 21:11:25 06/20/03 Fri
1. Whoever does the prologue must consider Xander's "Heart
of Darkness" speech to Andrew in NLM. I was always puzzled
by the pure despair of that speech, and Xander's contention that
it was Anya who "ripped out [his] heart and replaced it with
darkness," and not vice versa. If X and A did have a serious
conversation about the wedding between Selfless and NLM, it must
have been a doozy.
2. Format is not an issue and I will not demand a foolish consistency
(which is the hobgoblin of little minds). If you want to do your
chapter as a short story, screenplay, musical, interpretive dance...no
problem.
3. I'll try to explain in the conclusion why D'Hoffryn tried to
kill Anya after he let her go in Selfless. But if Rob, Fresne
or our unknown fourth want to drop hints, fine.
4. And finally, a suggestion: don't want to go all Dogma95 on
everyone, but if possible, let's keep these scenarios within the
boundaries of a credible TV budget. I want to believe that if
ME had the time, they could have put something like "Anya's
Journey" on the screen and not bankrupted UPN. This is not
a demand, just a suggestion.
[> [> [> [> Maybe
D'Hoffryn got in trouble with the wife -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:25:22
06/20/03 Fri
Mrs. D'Hoffryn realizes that her husband is harboring a secret
attraction for a certain vengeance demon when, after Anya turns
her back on her calling, he lets her live. So D'Hoffryn's wife
pressures him into killing Anya. But D'Hoffryn, unwilling to kill
his favorite vengeance demon, decides to send incompetent demon
assassins after her instead, and only when she's around a powerful
warrior like Spike or Buffy. Explains a lot, don't you think?
[> Re: Taking a cue from
fresne... -- O'Cailleagh, 19:13:27 06/20/03 Fri
Just a few days ago, I was thinking to myself 'wouldn't it be
nice if they did a S8 set at the same time as S7, but focusing
on everyone who wasn't Buffy or Spike. (Plus theoretically, ME
could do this as it wouldn't really require any appearances by
SMG and JM)
We'd get to see an alternative CwDP, with Jesse visiting Xander,
and Giles seeing Jenny and Kendra.
Or how about an ep set in 'heaven' with Tara, Joyce and other
assorted dead Sunnydale ex-residents trying to stop the First
from the other side.
Or even Oz helping a young Potential (whom he meets while playing
at a Dingoes gig) avoid the Bringers.
Yes. An alternate S7 would make a great S8...but an even better
game here!
O'Cailleagh
[> [> And then I saw
Corwin's post in S'kats S7 thread... -- O'Cailleagh (hoping
no-one notices his foolishness....), 19:32:27 06/20/03 Fri
Season 8 Episode
Titles -- Brian (flogging the concept to the point of no return),
14:27:32 06/20/03 Fri
1 Haunting Tara
2 Castles in the Air
3 Things that go Bump in the Night
4 My Favorite Werewolf
5 We are not Alone
6 My Mother, the Ghost
7 Vengeance is Mine
8 Spook Sonata
9 Kittens
10 Blood Bath
11 Tarnished Angel
12 Councilor At Law
13 House of Dracula
14 Moonlight and Champagne
15 Ask not for Whom the Bell Tolls
16 Group Dynamic
17 Love Bites
18 Ribbons
19 Slaymaster
20 Hellmouth Central
21 Hour of the Wolf
22 Dawn
[> Re: Season 8 episode
plot lines -- Brian (because I'm out of control thinking about
Cleveland), 15:14:12 06/20/03 Fri
1 Haunting Tara - All the Scoobies see ghosts of past lovers and
friends
2 Castles in the Air - The Scoobies are thrusted into a ghostly
dimension
3 Things that go Bump in the Night - The Big Evil takes an ectoplasmic
bow while Faith and Robin realize their vacation is over
4 My Favorite Werewolf - Oz returns and things get hairy
5 We are not Alone - Red Herring episode - Is it really aliens
not ghosts?
6 My Mother, The Ghost - Buffy gets some valuable life-in-death
lessons from Mom
7 Vengeance is Mine - New friends become quite ghostly
8 Spook Sonata - More ghosts per room than any movie ever made
anywhere
9 Kittens - Comic relief episode - The return of Clem
10 Blood Bath - Who knew ghosts could be so handy with sharp,
pointy objects?
11 Tarnished Angel - The one and only shows up to help. Things
get much worse.
12 Councilor At Law - The entire crew of Wolfram & Hart (including
Spike)show up for fun and games. Lilah is snarky as usual. Buffy
is confused. Very confused
13 House of Dracula - The supreme bloodsucker shows up from another
round. This time Buffy vows to take no prisoners.
14 Moonlight and Champagne - Buffy, Angel, Spike - A three way?
15 Ask not for Whom the Bell Tolls - Ghostly things happen worldwide
16 Group Dynamic - Scoobies shift into high gear to stop the Big
Bad
17 Love Ballads - Spike and Dru work out their differences
18 Ribbons - An episode in red, lots of red
19 Slaymaster - A new slayer is born
20 Hellmouth Central - the battle royal with the Big Evil - a
budget buster!
21 Hour of the Wolf - The Scoobies et al confront their demons
and find some peace.
22 Dawn - Every single plot hole, odd happening, character reversal,
and inexplicable event in the last 7 seasons is explained and
corrected. Buffy gets more baked and Dawn finds true love.
HEY! GOD!
(Spoilers to Peace Out) -- KdS, 11:56:23 06/20/03 Fri
Peace Out struck me once again with how good AtS has been
this year. I particularly noticed how Gunn gets a chance to shine
despite the fact that he, Fre, Wes and Lorne spend virtually the
entire episode locked in a cage. The fact that, after however
many hours, Gunn finally manages to kick the door of the cage
open has to be a statement of the capacity of human beings to
win out against the odds which Jasmine would have abolished.
Really though, this was Connor's episode. His sheer exhaustion
is the most memorable part of his soliloquy to Cordelia, along
with his desperate clutching for something to hold onto. The fact
that he clung to Jasmine despite knowing her to be a false messiah
sums up how much his whole life has been marked by manipulation,
right back to Holtz. The casual speed and astonishing violence
with which he kills Jasmine is shocking, but once again we have
parallels being drawn between father and son. Connor's silence
and lack of emotion is reminiscent of Angel after a similar sequence
of manipulation and betrayal in Redefinition, although
Connor's muderous activities were directed at a total innocent.
One has to wonder if Connor's killing of Jasmine is a fulfillment
of "the father shall kill the son". Did Wes take a generic
masculine gender as a specific one?
Jasmine's determination to destroy a world that rejected her is
repellant, sad and totally believable. She would have abolished
pain, sickness and war, but also everything positive in humanity.
The contempt with which she speaks of her former worshippers helps
to prove that, like Glory, she is an atheist's parody of divinity,
claiming love for her followers but in reality merely parasitic
on their worship. One does wonder why the High Priest and Keeper
of the Name had normal humanoid body plans. Did the CGI budget
for the season run out?
I was spoiled for Lilah's reappearance, although I wish they could
have kept Stephanie Romanov's name out of the credits. I can only
imagine how much of a shock it must have been for those who didn't
notice. I have resonances with the sudden reappearance of Elizabeth
Sheridan in the penultimate episode of Babylon 5's third
season, and wonder if there will be more resonances next week.
PS: yab has supplied me with a tape of the first five eps of Firefly.
Some thoughts on the first episode Serenity will be appearing
on the voy FF board in a few minutes. Thanks yab! By the way,
I got Dochawk safely to his hotel.
[> I found Angel's olive
branch to Jasmine in Act IV.... -- cjl, 13:56:11 06/20/03
Fri
....one of the most gracious and noble gestures I've ever seen
from our hero. He wasn't looking for payback; he was perfectly
willing to let slide everything she'd done to that point if she
would have joined the team.
Not human? He's "working on it." Act IV gave you hope
that he'll make it someday.
Of course, the more cynical among us could say that Angel only
made the offer because he knew she would turn it down--and he
was just rubbing it in. But that's too cyncial even for me.
[> [> I liked that too
-- KdS, 14:14:14 06/20/03 Fri
A reviewer on one of the biggest AtS sites on the 'net criticised
that as amoral and not punishing her as she deserved. What series
had he been watching all these years?
[> [> I thought his offer
was sincere -- Scroll, 17:47:30 06/20/03 Fri
You'd have to be really cynical, I think, to interpret
Angel's olive branch to Jasmine as "rubbing it in"!
It's definitely an interpretation I hadn't considered until you
mentioned it, cjl. I think Angel saw Jasmine as mostly misguided,
wanting to make things good and happy, but not truly understanding
that things like free will and self-determination and not eating
people were too essential to give up.
His offer to let her join him in his quest to help the helpless,
IMO, was very sincere -- though perhaps a little naive. Even if
he didn't truly think his pep-talk would make her see his POV
and have hope, I think Angel would have made the offer/extended
empathy anyway. Cuz he understood her and he thought she could
still help, still do good.
[> [> [> Agree.
-- Arethusa, 16:56:10 06/21/03 Sat
By encouraging Jasmine to change, Angel is showing he sincerely
believes anyone can change, and that he will help them do so.
The Harvest-Are Vampires stupid? -- sdev,
11:56:39 06/20/03 Fri
Buffy kills Luke in The Harvest by tricking him into thinking
he is about to get fried by the sunlight thus providing the moments
distraction she needs. "Sunrise, it's in about nine hours,
moron," she says as she stakes him.
Are vampires dumber than people? And if so, why? Repeatedly in
the Buffyverse vampires are shown as stupid, beginning with Luke
in The Harvest.
Is this why Angel and Spike rose to the top because they had more
smarts than their vampire peers?
I apologize if this topic has already been discussed. I am new
to this board.
[> Re: The Harvest-Are Vampires
stupid? -- CW, 12:05:30 06/20/03 Fri
Actually it's a fairly interesting topic. We have discussed before
that vampires usually have the same kinds of personal problems
and weaknesses as the human had before being killed. For instance,
it would certainly be fair to say that Vamp Harmony was stupid
because Cordette Harmony was. It could be argued that only people
with seriously problems seem to get picked by the vamps for siring.
A weak-minded human probably would translate to an easily controlable
minion. So there may, indeed, be a reason a lot of the vamps don't
seem very bright.
[> [> Minion-y dimness
+ animal bloodlust + vampiric overconfidence = stupid. --
cjl, 12:18:36 06/20/03 Fri
[> [> [> Re: Minion-y
dimness + animal bloodlust + vampiric overconfidence = stupid.
-- sdev, 12:31:24 06/20/03 Fri
I was wondering if people's stupidity contributes to them getting
vamped. There are theories that say that the prison population
constitutes a lower IQ than the general population. The hypothesis
is not that more criminals have a lower IQ, but that more people
with a lower IQ get caught and put in prison.
The other possibility is that becoming a vampire makes you dumber.
Maybe you are no longer thinking but relying on instincts (per
the cjl formula above).
I don't understand the "Minion-y dimness" part?
[> [> [> [> How
the formula breaks down: -- cjl, 12:38:13 06/20/03 Fri
Minion-y dimness: Sometimes, vampire overlords pick a strong but
essentially brainless individual to be a minion. The overlord
gets a minion with vampire strength, but without the intelligence
necessary to challenge the overlord's power.
Animal bloodlust: Natural intelligence can also be overwhelmed
by the vampire's hunger for blood.
Vampiric overconfidence: Inhuman strength and those nifty demonic
reflexes might make you think you're invincible. Dangerous assumption,
especially if you're a vampire in Sunnydale.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: If I had a minion... -- sdev, 13:24:59 06/20/03
Fri
I'd want a smart one. What's the point of a dumb one? I wouldn't
want a dumb employee.
I remember Spike in Suprise telling Dru to spare the life of the
only smart minion they had and give him a chance to fix his mistake.
Which he did. ME had him wear glasses to show his superior intellect.
Of course in the next couple of scenes they killed him anyway.
That was dumb.
Wouldn't your gang be more successful with smarter vampires? Is
blind obedience the only quality.
Who is the other "Chosen" to be vamped that is? Brawn
and beauty over intellect?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Well, the only real use for minions is for fighting
-- Finn Mac Cool, 16:27:23 06/20/03 Fri
We see vampire minions being used as little else besides easily
expendable soldiers for fighting the Slayer. You wouldn't want
a dumb employee, sure, but most jobs require a certain level of
mental capacity. Fighting, not so much.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Selection of the dumbest -- mamcu, 18:09:33
06/20/03 Fri
In so many ways the demon world is the opposite of the human,
so it makes perfect sense that those who are susceptible to vamping
would be the weakest humans. Happens in many a Buffy episode (start
with Jesse, for clueless), but also in Bram Stoker--it's never
the fearless vampire hunter, even one with no super powers, who
is dumb enough to get vamped.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Well, the only real use for minions is for
fighting-Uh uh -- sdev, 18:10:08 06/20/03 Fri
Not so. The Master used Luke to further his strategy to free himself.
A smarter vampire might have pulled it off. Spike used a vampire
to help him locate the Gem of Amara. Angel needed Giles to figure
out how to open Acathala.
The dumb minion strategy sounds antithetical to Darwinism. Survival
does not go to the dumbest.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Uh-oh! Darwin! -- Darby, 18:23:03
06/20/03 Fri
You make the flawed assumption that a smart vamp is going to be
a more successful vamp. But what we see is that the smart vamps
tend to be more high-profile, which is often not a good thing.
Those who bite and run away do better than those who rant til
day.
And in general, if intelligence were such a great adaptation,
it'd be a helluva lot more common. Our own smarts have gotten
- and will continue to get - us into scrapes that threaten our
future. I sometimes think that if intelligent creatures similar
to humans had evolved before here, their sojourns might have been
so brief that we'd have no clue they existed.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Uh-oh! Darwin! -- sdev, 10:22:45
06/21/03 Sat
Are you saying that people are commonly stupid? Just kidding.
Ok. I agree that cockroaches will probably survive us. I fear
that the awesome intelligence that harnessed nuclear power will
ultimately be our undoing as a species. But within, intraspecies,
intelligence is an advantage both longevity-wise and, not to be
underestimated, for quality of life. Would you want to be a minion?
And wouldn't you agree that intelligence was often a key to fighting
evil and defeating vampires and demons in the Buffyverse?
How about my other question- were Angel and Spike smarter than
their peers?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Here's a thought: -- Finn
Mac Cool, 11:15:39 06/21/03 Sat
Maybe we see so many stupid vampires because only the very stupid
or the very cocky would stay in a town guarded by a Vampire Slayer.
All of the smart vamps probably skedaddled long ago.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Uh-oh! Darwin! -- Malandanza,
10:48:53 06/21/03 Sat
"You make the flawed assumption that a smart vamp is going
to be a more successful vamp. But what we see is that the smart
vamps tend to be more high-profile, which is often not a good
thing. Those who bite and run away do better than those who rant
til day."
I don't know that a really smart vampire would be high profile
-- it seems to me that low profile would be a sign of intelligence.
Like Sunday, from season four -- she was a smart vampire. The
disappearing students vanished with a reason -- young college
students who couldn't handle the transition from High School life
to University life.
But maybe you mean high profile in the vampire world -- and a
master vampire might well kill off a minion who, by virtue of
his intelligence, appeared to be a potential threat. However,
it seems that strength is more respected among vampires than intelligence
(hence Spike taking over the Master's clan with much of a protest)
so a smart vampire, like Dalton, would be seen as less of a threat
than physically powerful vampires, like Luke or the Three.
But the real threat to the vampire master is not mere brute strength
or intelligence -- it is a willingness to question authority and
act independently. Mort (Harmony's minion) best typifies this
sort of minion (so does Spike as the Annointed One's minion).
It is independent thinking that ought to be selected against by
master vampires interested in protecting themselves from ambitious
rivals. So the physical strength of Luke or the intelligence of
Dalton were not at all threatening because they both had the minion
mentality. Perhaps cultivating the slave mentality among their
minions does eventually lead to trouble down the road from enemies
who can think circles around the unimaginative minions, but it
does help protect the vampire from his own minions. The Master's
minions were loyal enough to stick around during his entombment
and try to effect his release, and try to resurrect him after
his dusting. Spike's minions (inherited from the Master/Annoited
one) were loyal enough to keep following him even after all his
blunders and defeats.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Agree -- sdev, 12:14:37
06/21/03 Sat
"The Master's minions were loyal enough to stick around during
his entombment and try to effect his release, and try to resurrect
him after his dusting."
True about questioning authority. Darla was a minion?? of the
Master, and she was not dumb. She was also his favorite.
??I am not sure how the term minion is being used. Was Darla a
minion? When are you a minion and when are you part of a gang?
I think you can be part of a gang and not be the leader and still
not be a minion.
I always had this picture of Spike as not particuliarly one of
physical prowess but of mental superiority- not necessarily intelligence
but what I would call "street smarts." The Master himself
did not seem physically powerful. In fact he was physically incapacitated
because he was confined. So what was the source of his domination?
Angel always seemed to have superior physical strength. From BtVS,
leaving out AtS, was he also smarter? Not so much as far as I
can see.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: If I had a minion...keeping this thread up while
i work on something -- anom, 19:43:34 06/23/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: If I had a minion...c'mon, none of you have this
playing in your head? -- anom...humming, 20:34:47 06/23/03
Mon
I had to hurry before the thread was gone, so it's only 1 verse--anyone
else want to add your own?
If I had a minion, daitle deetle daitle,
I would want a minion who was dumb!
All day long he'd biddy biddy bum,
I'd keep him under my thumb!
I wouldn't have to work hard
'Cause my minion would do all the work while I would make the
plans
If I had a minion who was dumb
I could leave the scutwork in his hands.
If he were dumb he'd never question my orders
Or try to overthrow me (or succeed!)
He'd dismember victims at my behest.
He'd never think for himself & I could relax
When I sent him out to do my dirty deeds!
That would be the part I'd like the best!
Ahhh....
If I had a minion, daitle deetle daitle,
Better that my minion should be dumb!
He would have all my foes on the run
Slaughtering would be so much more fun
I could rule the world before I'm done
IIIF...I had a dummmb...minIOOONNN!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: If I had a hammer, er I mean minion --
sdev, 22:31:53 06/23/03 Mon
I have my own version-
If I had a minion,
He'd minion in the evening,
He'd minion all nighttime, all over Sunnydale.
He'd work his fangs off,
Kill for my pleasure.
He's just the dumbest thing
So stupid he could fail. All over Sunnydale.
I'd have to replace him
With a vamp of his kind.
Should I go for brains, or choose another moron?
A Hellmouth special,
Cause smart ones can rebel.
And could I ever find
Such loyalty, he's like a son? All over Sunnydale.
That's the choice that's left me,
If I want to wreak havoc,
And build my gang of minions all over Sunnydale.
To take out the Slayer,
Her friends run for cover,
And set the world amok.
Smarts will yield me this most unholy Grail. All over Sunnydale.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: If I had a hammer, er I mean minion
-- sdev-Apologies to Pete Seeger, 22:35:50 06/23/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> To be fair... -- Rob, 11:44:07 06/24/03 Tue
I remember Spike in Suprise telling Dru to spare the life of
the only smart minion they had and give him a chance to fix his
mistake. Which he did. ME had him wear glasses to show his superior
intellect. Of course in the next couple of scenes they killed
him anyway. That was dumb.
...Spike and Dru didn't kill Dalton. The Judge did.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: To be fair... -- sdev, 12:07:56 06/24/03
Tue
But Dru gleefully cheered him on. She just could'nt help herself.
She was so excited by the Judge. Spike really knows how to give
a gift.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Hee hee. I love my whacky demented lil' Dru!
:oD -- Rob, 12:21:19 06/24/03 Tue
[> Re: The Harvest-Are Vampires
stupid? -- Spikejones,
07:11:57 06/23/03 Mon
I've often thought they're so dumb because they're so young. The
vamp tendency to sire young and beautiful trophy vamps doesn't
even seem to include 'brainiac' as a criterion.
Yes, this is a self-serving theory (I was young in 1066), but
apart from Luke, I can't think of many post-30 vamps or any other
post-30 vamps who were idjits. (the Master, Kakistos, the guy
in S1 ep 1 AtS, Trip... all smarty-pants).
Some of the young and beautiful happen to be smart, but not more
so than the regular population. And, my theory being that people
don't really mature till after they hit 25, (users of this site
excepted, of course) many vamps never had a chance.
Jonesie
HARRY POTTER
DAY!!! -- JDP, 12:24:27 06/20/03 Fri
So who is going to go get "Order of the Phoenix" at
midnight? I am so excited about this book, and all the media surrounding
it has made me positively buzzed!
Depending on the way you look at it I am fortunately/unfortunately
going to go to the local Barnes and Noble's midnight release(the
last release was something else, with all these yuppies' kids
and their annoying, pushy, habits).
But Yah! Nonetheless!!!
[> Re: HARRY POTTER DAY!!!
-- pr10n, 13:01:16 06/20/03 Fri
Big day at our house, too, but we're not going to midnight events.
Too much hoopla, too late for my littles, I'm allergic to owls.
(I made up the last bit.) We are going to lunch tomorrow and then
hunting down a copy. Should be fun.
A few years ago I bonded with a neighbor girl over Book 3. She
came by last week to say she had ordered her copy through Amazon
and was just tickled and stoked to receive it.
Her sister plays with one of my daughters. These girls call themselves
"The Radcliffes" and run around screaming about how
they will marry Daniel Radcliffe one day. (Mr. Radcliffe plays
Harry in the movies).
My son signed up for the local library waiting list. He was number
1011 in line for Book 5. Rather than disappointed he claimed "#1011"
as a badge of honor and vowed to wait until his number comes up.
Sure, buddy -- you won't read it for three months. Ri-i-i-ght.
What an amazing phenom this Potter thing is. Oh, Ms. Rowling,
please be strong! Take off lots of time between now and Book 6
-- we can handle it. Get another degree! Learn a foreign language,
how to paint, fencing in all three weapons, the bass guitar! Love
your little babies, act like a normal soccer mom (football mom?
CRICKET MOM?) Run for political office. Anything you need to keep
your brain in fine fettle.
[> [> Mine is coming
tomorrow via Amazon. -- Rob, 13:22:32 06/20/03 Fri
[> Re: HARRY POTTER DAY!!!
-- O'Cailleagh, 18:19:32 06/20/03 Fri
Its the craziest thing. There I was, walking through Cardiff (
a nearby city) on my way home from the Rocky Horror Show with
some friends, when all of a sudden we happened upon the biggest
group of 8yr olds in sleeping bags I have ever seen just sitting
around outside a bookshop. With their parents/guardians obviously.
It took us a while to realise why they were there, and then it
hit us that it was for the new HP book.
Why are these infernal books just so damn popular anyway? I've
not read them, never had the urge to, but judging by the movies,
which I hear are pretty faithful, they seem kinda formulaic and
old hat. Obviously, its foolish to judge a book by the movie based
on it, but still....
could someone please explain..why all the fuss?
BTW, I'll bet their parents are being kept busy with questions
like "Mummy? Why is that man dressed like that?"
I wanted to sing 'I Put A Spell On You' to them...but my friends
wouldn't let me...<:-(
O'Cailleagh
[> [> A faithful movie
doesn't necessarily give a good representation of the book
-- Finn Mac Cool, 21:04:51 06/20/03 Fri
Take "The Godfather" for example. The movie was very
faithful to the book. That doesn't change the fact that the book
rocked while the movie is, IMO, the most overrated film of all
time. I'd say that, sometimes, there is such a thing as being
too faithful to your source material.
[> [> [> Re: A faithful
movie doesn't necessarily give a good representation of the book
-- tom, 22:51:01 06/20/03 Fri
Personally, I agree that making a movie be to much like the book
can be a bad thing because you end up not taking advantage of
the medium that you are using. However, in the case of the Godfather,
I think the film is an incredible work of many talented individuals
at the peak of their abilities and also I would argue is not exceptionally
faithful to the novel in that it cuts large chunks and has a significantly
different ending.
I think the problem with the Harry Potter movies is that J.K.
Rowling structures the her books very tightly. Because of this
fact, the director and writers are afraid to cut material because
it could be important to a later book and also Rowling likes to
make everything that goes on in the books tie in to the climax,
which makes it difficult to cut material with changing major chunks
of the story. This problem only gets bigger with the tightly plotted
book three scheduled to hit theaters next year.
[> [> Re: HARRY POTTER
DAY!!! -- Rob, 00:40:34 06/21/03 Sat
Why are these infernal books just so damn popular anyway? I've
not read them, never had the urge to, but judging by the movies,
which I hear are pretty faithful, they seem kinda formulaic and
old hat. Obviously, its foolish to judge a book by the movie based
on it, but still....could someone please explain..why all the
fuss?
Simply put, they're very well-written and very engaging. Great
characters and characterization, and very densely plotted. Things
come together in unexpected ways in the end of each book, and
surprises appear in later books often that twist around things
we learned in earlier books, and yet make perfect sense when you
re-read the earlier books. She's basically had the whole series
planned out since she finished the first one, so she places lots
of clues about later events throughout the books. And while a
lot of her fantasy elements may seem derivative, these books just
speak to a certain need that obviously a great many people had,
like Joseph Campbell wrote about. Need proof? How about the fact
that over half of the "Potter" readers are adults. My
cousin, who HATES all sci-fi and fantasy absolutely adores Harry
Potter. All fantasy is made up of cliche. It's just how the elements
are juggled that makes the story special. IMO, all of the various
elements are used very well with Rowling. She also has a very
good sense of humor, and balances well light, silly humor with
genuine darkness and thriller-paced plotting. Is it the best writing
ever? No. But it definitely is not just hype. It has become so
popular because to a large extent it deserves it.
Rob
[> [> [> Re: HARRY
POTTER DAY!!! -- O'Cailleagh, 04:58:58 06/21/03 Sat
Then I shall give them a whirl, you've convinced me!
Although my favourite scool for Witches will always be Cackle's
Academy, from the Worst Witch books!
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> [> Wow,
cool! Having written that at about 3 in the morning, I'm surprised
I was so convincing! lol -- Rob, 10:43:39 06/21/03 Sat
[> [> [> Speaking
of clues... (spoilery spec for Potter series up to #4) --
dub ;o), 15:43:32 06/21/03 Sat
Anybody else think that Ron is going to end up madly in love with
Hermione?
;o)
[> [> [> [> I do,
I do! (spoilery spec) -- Rob, 16:27:21 06/21/03 Sat
I wonder whether jealousy will spark between Harry and Ron. Hmmm...
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
Oh, me too. -- Arethusa, 16:46:00 06/21/03 Sat
Ron was so jealous when she went to the big dance with someone
else.
[> [> [> [> [>
Oh, but...(more spoiler spec) -- dub ;o), 17:04:12 06/21/03
Sat
Just give Ginny Weasley a few years to mature and Harry won't
be able to take his eyes off her!
;o)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Oh, but...(more spoiler spec) -- Rob, 17:24:04
06/21/03 Sat
Are we forecasting a double wedding in the final book? ;o)
Rob
[> Mine has just arrived
by Xpress Post -- dub ;o), 11:51:33 06/21/03 Sat
Now, how am I gonna fit this in with all the melee books, I ask
ya?
Not to worry--this is the sort of problem I love having, too much
good stuff to read!
;o)
[> [> Got mine 3 hours
ago from FedEx! :o) -- Rob, 12:18:07 06/21/03 Sat
[> Re: HARRY POTTER DAY!!!
No Spoilers!! -- JDP, 08:05:14 06/22/03 Sun
I finished Harry Potter V last night around 11pm, 23 hours of
mad reading, but it was worth it. What a wonderful book, everyone
go get it!!!!!! AMAZING!!
[> [> And I thought reading
200 pages in the first night was impressive! -- Rob, 09:13:46
06/22/03 Sun
[> [> Agreed -- Tchaikovsky,
13:09:49 06/22/03 Sun
I run in 90 minutes behind you, (although if you're American not
British, then I finished before you in real terms!!) finishing
just after midnight after 24 hours of reading interrupted by one
hour sleep, some washing and the necessity of waving goodbye to
my Austrian flatmate.
And it is a very good book.
TCH
[> So what does everyone
think of it? -- s'kat, 11:07:52 06/22/03 Sun
It's been getting some horrible reviews on other boards.
People are saying it's very dark and the characters aren't as
likable.
Curious to see what you guys think?
sk (whose patiently waiting for it to come out in paperback)
[> [> My 12 year old
loved it -- curious, 11:34:13 06/22/03 Sun
My 12 year old finished it yesterday and liked it more than I
expected he would. (He prefers
Phillip Pullman and Tolkien these days. He felt he had "outgrown"
HP but couldn't resist reading it to the end yesterday.) He liked
the darker, more grown up feel of the characters. He says a lot
of things that seemed unnecessary in the 4th book (not a favorite
of mine) paid off in this book.
I am going to have to read it when my 9 year old is finished -
or gives up on it. I have the feeling it is a little dark for
her. She is a "lighter" kind of kid. We read the others
to her when she was younger but she has re-read them all on her
own lately.
[> [> It's darker. But
they're wrong. It's the best bar Number Three -- Tchaikovsky-
making a host of unjustified claims, 13:07:33 06/22/03 Sun
[> [> [> Not close
to finished, but I'm loving it so far. Kind of like the "season
6" of HP books. ;o) -- Rob, 20:03:09 06/22/03 Sun
[> [> Re: So what does
everyone think of it? (spoilers Harry Potter and the Order of
Pheonix) -- Alison, 21:04:06 06/22/03 Sun
I absolutely loved it- admittedly, the plot felt a little more
muddled, but emotionally...wrenching. I may have been overly emotional
when I read it, but I cried at regular intervals while reading,
and sobbed through the last 100ish pages. It wasn't as light a
read- the HP world is getting greyier, and as is to be expected
in a battle against evil, the characters, Harry especially, are
losing their innocence. Really wonderful book...as gripping as
the first four, but far darker- if you don't like dark, it won't
be as enjoyable a read, but since I seem to want misery from my
choices of entertainment, it lived up to my every expectation.
[> [> Great -- Tom,
22:18:33 06/22/03 Sun
"It's been getting some horrible reviews on other boards.
People are saying it's very dark and the characters aren't as
likable."
I think this is a result of the fact that the characters are actually
growing and changing. Many characters are given new and interesting
depths.
Additional, Rowling has written all of her Potter books from the
perspective of Harry at the age he was when the events happened.
In Book One, Harry is the timid eleven year-old thrown into a
world that he was unaware existed and told that he is not only
a part of it but that he is famous inside of this world. By the
time Book Five rolls around Harry is a fifteen year-old who is
used to being among most famous wizard around, with experiences
beyond his peers, and facing a world that has changed drastically
in the aftermath of the events of Book Four. Since, Harry and
the world that Harry inhabits has changed the books are different
as well. This change is welcome and necessary to me and many other
people, however; those who view Potter as comfortable and safe
will tend to object to it.
In other words, its darker and the characters are less purely
likeable, but it makes sense in the context of the story and works
both on a thematic level and on a purely entertaining level.
Tom
[> [> [> Re: Great
-- Wizard,
22:54:41 06/22/03 Sun
I loved Book 5.
I can't go into more detail without giving MAJOR spoilers, but
I feel safe saying this: Rowling has created one of the most perfectly
horrid characters I have ever encountered in any medium. The worst
part about it is that this character is completely believeable.
Those who have read the book or who are reading the book know
who I'm talking about.
I enjoy the fact that the books are maturing. A lesser writer
might have been tempted to keep the books simple, but Rowling
has (wisely, IMO) matured her tone and content to match Harry's
growth. Book 5 is even darker than Book 4, with more shades of
grey. Disliked characters are given reasons for their actions.
Admired characters are shown to have feet of clay. And our heroes,
especially Harry, are losing their innocence. And the ending!
One of Rowling's strengths are her endings. I keep re-reading
the last 100 or so pages of Book 4, but the ending of Book 5-
wow. Just... wow.
But don't worry- it is a Harry Potter book, and that means no
matter how dark it gets, there is lightness and humour. Old characters
surprise and delight. Ditto for new characters. Seemingly throw-away
passages from previous books take on new significance (as has
been the case since Book 2). Fred and George are still up to no
good, and one of the very best passages in the book is devoted
to them. People who have read it know what I'm taking about.
I cannot recommend this book enough. My only regret is that I'm
starting the series in the middle of the writing process. I cannot
imagine what it would be like to just start with Book 1 and be
able to read straight through to Book 7. Was three years too long
for this? I don't know. On the one hand, I want to read Book 6
very soon, but on the other, the quality of each book has risen
(and was damn high to begin with), and I don't want the quality
to decline now when things are getting especially good.
I cannot recommend this book, or this series, enough.
[> [> [> [> I personally
can't wait for all 7 books to be out, so... -- Rob, 23:17:00
06/22/03 Sun
...I can reread them all in one marathon run, notice all the intricacies,
and fully appreciate the dense plotting of the whole series. It
must be quite interesting to experience the series with knowledge
of what is to come, where clues are being placed, etc. I've resisted
the urge to read the last 4 books again before this came out because
I want my first reread of them to be in their final form. Quite
remarkable indeed how she keeps the continuity up. I also appreciate
how Rowling cleverly places reminders of past events into the
story itself, tiny recaps throughout the text help the reader
recall what was going on in the story much more organically than
a synopsis at the start would have. I haven't read "Goblet
of Fire" since the week it originally came out, but it's
all coming back to me in a rush. The 4th had been my favorite.
Now the 5th is looking very likely to be my favorite. I'm enjoying
the seeds of discontent between the characters. Their growth seems
to be mirroring the evolution of the Scoobies. Very interesting
stuff.
I actually probably would have finished the book by now, but I
have a tendency to speed through a book, then feel bad that it's
over. Since it seems like it will be quite a while till the next
is out, I'm spacing this one out and savoring it, and limiting
myself to only 100 pages a day.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Hem
hem -- Tchaikovsky, 01:50:41 06/23/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
Yes, Dolores? :) -- Wizard,
02:05:59 06/23/03 Mon
[> [> And they say that
like its a bad thing?? -- Rahael, 06:49:02 06/23/03 Mon
[> [> I just started
reading. I LOVE it. (no plot spoilers for Phoenix other than the
mood of the book) -- Rahael, 19:53:13 06/23/03 Mon
Am also reading new Diana Wynne Jones in tandem. Both are really
excellent and I feel totally spoilt.
But honestly, I have a new and dawning respect for Rowling. I
feel really inspired by Phoenix, emotionally speaking, and am
now ready to get into the Potter fandom in a way that I would
never have contemplated before.
Apparently there is some criticism that people don't want to go
to HP for bleakness. they want escapism. And I'm like, what was
the mirror of erysond (?) about, the diary of Tom Riddle about
than the danger of getting lost in seductive escapism and comforting
lies?
This woman is taking risks. Bravo, JK!
[> [> [> Interesting
responses all, thanks. -- s'kat, 21:06:49 06/23/03 Mon
Interesting.
The responses on Atpo board for the newest Potter and Matrix Reloaded
before it and the responses on Angel's Soul, B C&S and elsewhere
are really really fascinating contrast.
BC&S/Angel's Soul - the consensus so far seems to be that
Book 5 is way too dark, Harry has become snotty, Hermoine is priggish
with no redeeming qualities, Ron isn't that interesting and in
the background, and James/Dumbledore are no longer likable.
They said Matrix Reloaded was dull and just dialogue/action/dialogue.
Now this board on the other hand...seems to like the dark underpinings,
finds Book 5 far more gripping and more interesting than the others,
and that the characters actually seem more real and have more
depth.
The consensus on this board was similarily positive for Matrix
- again on the depth end. (I actually liked Matrix Reloaded..btw
- even if it was like being in a video game with Jean-PAul Sartre)
Also I've found Atpo overall to be more complimentary of S6 and
S7 of Btvs.
This leads me to believe, I'll probably like Phoenix.
The USA Today review, my mother read to me over the phone, says
that Rowling needs an editor, uses long adverbs, overwrites, and
there's a meaness in the books that wasn't apparent before.
I find it fascinating how different people respond to the same
work of art. And oddly enough very inspiring. It gives me hope
for my own writing. Thank you.
May have to grab the book at the library, at $52 on amazon it's
a bit steep for my current bank account. ;-)
(Oh think about this for a sec - sold two million in two days
- at 52$ a copy....uhm that's over 50 million, we can thank Harry
Potter for other books that Scholastic publishes.)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Interesting responses all, thanks. -- Masq, 09:21:14 06/24/03
Tue
I actually liked Matrix Reloaded..btw - even if it was like
being in a video game with Jean-PAul Sartre
OK, you sold me. I'll have to go see it!
[> [> [> [> [>
Masq, you will have hours and hours... -- Rob, 10:39:39
06/24/03 Tue
...of philosophy-zy goodness to wrap your head around in "Reloaded"!
I had to watch it 3 times...first time for "oohs" and
"aahs," and the other 2 times, to analyze what I was
seeing. At some points, I really wished I could have a pause and
rewind button!
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> My review of "The Matrix" Part I -- Masq,
13:35:40 06/24/03 Tue
With a comparison to Normal Again, here.
The philosopher isn't easy to impress with philosophy-zy goodness
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Oooh oooh! -- Ro, 13:38:49 06/24/03 Tue
Certain things, such as the metaphysics of the Oracle are explained
in the second film. Actually, a great deal of things we learned
in the first are turned on their heads in the second. Seeing the
first after viewing the second is like seeing a completely different
movie.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Oooh oooh! -- Ro=Rob typing too quickly
;o), 13:41:16 06/24/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Agreed -- matching mole, 11:02:50 06/25/03
Wed
I disliked the Matrix enough when I saw it during its original
release that I have never even contemplated watching the sequel.
My own brief review would go something like this.
First (approximate) third of the film - I liked this part. It's
not quite clear what is going on and the world is clearly not
what it seems. Appeals to the noirish, Phillip K. Dick, and surrealist
enthusiasms within me.
Second (again approximate) third. Lots of exposition and pseudo-mystical
goings on. As Masq says the core idea isn't really original enough
to rise above this but I would be willing to forgive that if we
were encouraged to connect more with the characters. It is here
that 'Normal Again' (IMHO) soars miles and miles above the Matrix.
Third (you know, approximately) third. As I have a relatively
limited aesthetic interest in violence, especially special effects
laden violence I would probably have enjoyed half an hour of watching
paint dry more if it was filmed by a really good cinematographer.
However I might watch Matrix II at some point if someone could
convince me that it is better than Matrix I.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Agreed -- Rob, 11:17:51 06/25/03
Wed
The thing is Matrix 2 takes the stuff that might seem hokey spiritualism
in the first film and explains it so that it actually fits into
the cyberpunk milieu of the film. I can't say much more without
giving it all away, but any thing that didn't seem to fit metaphysically
in the first film is explained in this one, and it make sense.
Including the Oracle, and what the One actually is. Not saying
that this will definitely change your opinion, but I know at least
the book, "The Matrix and Philosophy" became almost
completely irrelevant when the revelations of the second film
came out. Because the rules of the universe are turned on their
heads. But it's not retcon. When you rewatch the first film, it
works perfectly.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Agreed -- s'kat, 12:13:06 06/25/03
Wed
It depends on what you like.
Matrix II really is like being caught in a violent video game
with Keanu Reeves, JEan Paul Satre and a bunch of
Greek myths. The metaphors and the philosophical mind
games are sort of fun or really dull depending on your pov.
And the stunts take way too long....
I suggest you rent it - mole and not spend money on it.
Since you did not like the first one.
I liked it, but then I also liked the first one. I didn't consider
it as deep as most people did though. I think the second one actually
and oddly enough has more depth, but
it's confusingly shown, broken up by lots of action scenes and
a weird rave/music video scene that makes little sense.
[> [> [> [> Re:
BtVS S6 & 7, and Harry Potter -- Rob, 10:44:25 06/24/03
Tue
Interestingly, throughout the book, I keep thinking of the last
2 seasons of "Buffy."
Characters drifting apart, as they each start pursuing different
goals? Check!
A main character who starts to feel both superior and inferior
to his/her friends because of his/her "specialness"?
Check!
Magic that at times gets downright disturbing? Check!
Death? Check!
A world that gets increasingly gray as the dark side of things
you once depended on are revealed? Check!
Not done with the book yet, but even only 400 pages into it, yes,
so far, it's my favorite.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
Oh, and s'kat, about the price... -- Rob, 10:57:03 06/24/03
Tue
Are you sure you read that price right? Because I got mine from
Amazon for $17.99 and last time I checked the price was the same.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/043935806X/qid=1056476495/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-6352905-7535168
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I must have misread it.. -- s'kat, 13:56:39 06/24/03
Tue
I have to admit I though 52$ was a bit steep. Guess I hit the
wrong one and just misread it.
Can't afford 17 $ either at this point...but at least that price
makes more sense. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: I must have misread it.. -- Tom, 21:08:18
06/24/03 Tue
S'kat,
There is a deluxe edition that has $50 price tag, but the regular
hardback is available for under $20. I guessing you saw the more
expensive edition.
Tom
"The
Harvest" Revisited -- Darby, 13:52:46 06/20/03 Fri
The Harvest is the second part of the pilot episode - the
part with the backstory and action. It's easy to see why it hasn't
pulled a lot of discussion during this end-of-mourning period.
But here are a few stream-of-consciousness tidbits...
Buffy racing to rescue to Potential Scoobies. Somewhere along
the way (after this), SMG must have worked on not "running
like a girl."
"This world is older than any of you know..." Is this
supposed to reference the young Fundamentalist world or the ancient
geological world, or some specific Sunnydale perception?
"The way was made for mortal animals...for Man..." So
there were no animals, just demons, once, or is "animal"
just a synonym for "human" here? What sort of timeline
is this? Sounds fairly Lovecraftian.
Interesting that Giles, relating what "the books" say,
describes vampires as "humans infected with the demon's soul."
Maybe the idea that the human was no longer in there became
something that the Slayers (and maybe Watchers) had to be told
to make the Slaying easier.
Daddy's home! It seems from WttH that the Master has been incommunicado
for quite a while - "3 score years." Perhaps that explains
Darla's extreme deference to him - how long since she had seen
her sire? And how long had she been essentially on her own? What
happened to the Fanged Four after Angel's departure?
We see the first evidence that Willow is more interested in flexing
her hacker muscles than trivial legalities about official records.
She's all about the Power...and we hear her called "naughty"
for the first time...
...And Xander says, "We saddle up!"
We see a fence around the school that ceases to exist after this
episode.
I tried a search on "rain of toads." It was kinda interesting,
especially the horoscope with