March 2002 posts

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Anyone have any non-spoilerish thoughts on the preview for next week? -- Non-Hostile Seventeen, 22:31:13 03/05/02 Tue

I thought tonight's episode was great but I was BLOWN away by the preview for next week. Any thoughts people?

[> Re: Anyone have any non-spoilerish thoughts on the preview for next week? -- juliaabra, 22:51:15 03/05/02 Tue

i have a dallas thought--it was all a psychoses-induced nightmare--poor buffy! a straight jacket instead of a shower.

[> [> Re: Anyone have any non-spoilerish thoughts on the preview for next week? -- SKPE, 06:45:13 03/06/02 Wed

I dont think this is going to be a 'bobby in the shower' you know how joss likes to turn the expected on its head.

[> No, but I'm quite overly excited. It's so me. Damn, I haven't been this juiced for BtVS since OMWF. -- yuri, 03:14:06 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> Me, too, Yuri...That was the most intriguing promo in a while! -- Rob, 05:01:20 03/06/02 Wed

[> I'm so excited for next week! -- bienbizare, 06:23:32 03/06/02 Wed

I've been wondering if the writers were ever going to go this route. Sorry Buff, you're not a powerful superheroine, you've just dreamed it all up. After all, if any show is crazy enough to have been just a delusion, this is it.

Also, I'm wondering who is behind making Buffy think she's just been crazy all these years. Is it just her dreaming this, the troika, or maybe Sam really is, as many have speculated (or hoped) eeeevil and she is behind it.

Only 6 days and 11 hours left.

[> I'm so excited for next week! -- bienbizare, 06:24:45 03/06/02 Wed

I've been wondering if the writers were ever going to go this route. Sorry Buff, you're not a powerful superheroine, you've just dreamed it all up. After all, if any show is crazy enough to have been just a delusion, this is it.

Also, I'm wondering who is behind making Buffy think she's just been crazy all these years. Is it just her dreaming this, the troika, or maybe Sam really is, as many have speculated (or hoped) eeeevil and she is behind it.

Only 6 days and 11 hours left.

[> My first thought was... (Hell's Bells spoilers) -- Darby, 07:09:13 03/06/02 Wed

...that Anya, like Cordelia, might blame Buffy for what's just happened to her and might set up another type of alternate universe.

I don't really think that's going to happen - it's hard to imagine how such a dilemma could be solved. Unless...we don't know how Dawn would be affected by such a change - being the Key, it seems like she'd be resistent to universe shifting.

Dawn to the rescue! Must be a very weird Tuesday.

[> Can't Wait -- Terrapin, 14:23:38 03/06/02 Wed

I am so excited about next week's episode. After watching Hell's Bells, then seeing the promo, I thought my head was going to explode. My first thought of the promo was the Troika.

Impressions on Hell's Bells : What is love ? -- Etrangere, 00:29:02 03/06/02 Wed

Who knows love ?
Who says he knows love ?
What is love, tell me ?

Mutant Ennemy never takes the easy way. It always got to be hard, painful and difficult. Life maybe a wonderous thing. But it's not a song, and when it goes awrong, it goes a awrong.
And no one is sparred from it.

"I know love,"
Says the littlest one.
"Love is like a tall oak tree."

So, Xander and Anya were supposed to be the "light at the end of the tunnel". Hope that love is there, that happiness exists, that it's possible to reach it.
And as everytime, ME shatters this illusion.
Happiness is not easy.

"Why is love a tall oak tree ?
Little one tell me."

They did tell us already ever and ever "love hurts", "You always hurts the one you love"," Sometimes two people all they bring each other is pain."
And is it all there is to love ? Anya though she had found something else in her love with Xander, she though she found some love that meant feelings "safe and warm".

"Love is a tree
For the shelter it gives
In sunshine or in storm."

But you can't cover the annoying demon with flowers and hope it gonna just go "poof". The demons are in you, for you to deal with, and the more you wait, the more it gonna stink under the sweetness of the flowers of your lies, or the more likely the eggs will hatch some nasty crabs and flood you.

Who knows love ?
Who says he knows love ?
What is love, tell me.

But so is light. Why should buffy look for Xander and Anya to find it, when she's glowing, when the light is hers ?
"I have survived", claims her T-shirt in the end. Survived what ? Is love some kind of war, of fight you just have to endure ? Isn't there anything else ?

"I know love,"
Says the littlest one.
"Love is like a flower."

The problem isn't and has never been love. It's you. That's what Buffy meant when she said "and it's killing me". That's what Xander said when he said that Anya wasn't the one he hated in the images of his future, and he should know with a family like his.
Love is not always pretty. Sometimes it's ugly. Sometimes you're ugly, and you just can't hide it. And you can only hate yourself for hurting those you love, for being unable to bring them the happiness and the protection that you wanted to bring them. Well, you can't always do that.

"Why is love like a flower ?
Little one tell me."

So, no, the problems don't come from love, but what love brings, it's the possibility to share those problems, those doubts, those demons. Because, hey !, you know, "Nobody's perfect", and you don't defeat demon by covering them with flowers, but by facing them. Together.
And bring forgiveness with you. Lots of forgiveness, for the others, and especially for yourself. Nobody deserves vengeance. Not from Spike, not by Stuart Burns. Despite all the hurt caused to them.

"Love is a flower
For the sweetness it gives
Before it dies away."

You know what they say there is after the rain ?

The poem is from Guy Gabriel Kay's Lions of Al-Rassan

[> Sigh... lovely post! -- ponygirl, 07:27:50 03/06/02 Wed

[> Re: Impressions on Hell's Bells : What is love ? -- Maeve Rigan, 09:24:45 03/06/02 Wed

Very insightful, as usual, Etrangere. More!

Have to say, though, much as I appreciate & admire Guy Gavriel Kay as a novelist & writer of prose, he really should give up on poetry. This is the second rather unfortunate poem of his I've seen. The ideas are perfectly well stated in Etrangere's essay.

[> Re: Impressions on Hell's Bells : What is love ? -- Deeva, 10:26:57 03/06/02 Wed

Thank you so very much for this great post. I wish that I could respond with something thoughtful but it's too soon. Perhaps something will click later. I am amazed by how you've incorprated this wonderful poem into your posting. *sigh* very appropriate.

Boston Herald article on Emma Caulfield...some spoilers.. -- Rufus, 00:32:04 03/06/02 Wed

Boston Herald

Taming her inner demons: Outspoken `Buffy' star Emma Caulfield makes peace with acting profession

by Amy Amatangelo
Monday, March 4, 2002

Actors toil for years in the cutthroat film and television industry hoping for their big break. Most would be thrilled to land a role as a series regular on a hit television show.

But not Emma Caulfield, who plays the loopy former demon Anya on UPN's ``Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' (Tuesdays at 8 p.m. on WSBK, Ch. 38). ``I've behaved like an unappreciative, almost disgruntled brat,'' said Caulfield, describing her adversarial approach to the industry.

``Not to be vulgar, but I've (peed) on this business. So many people would kill to be in the position I'm in. I haven't deserved what I've gotten,'' Caulfield said in a recent phone interview.

Caulfield's charmingly frank talk is reminiscent of the character she plays. Anya's all id, constantly saying exactly what's on her mind. This season, when times have been particularly dark in Sunnydale, Anya's hysterical outbursts have brought much humor to the series.

The 28-year-old actress had left the business after her stint as Brandon's girlfriend, Susan, during the sixth season of ``Beverly Hills, 90210.'' When she first guest-starred on ``Buffy'' in 1998, it was merely to ``make some quick cash and be on a show that I like.''

But her appearance as a vengeance demon sent to help Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) get over a broken heart quickly became an ongoing gig. Caulfield nailed the complex and endearing character and was established as a series regular in 2000.

Caulfield continued to struggle with her success. The industry, she felt, was not ``feeding her soul.'' Recently, while in Australia shooting a film for Revolution Studios, she had what she described as an ``epiphany.'' ``I had this awakening there of what I'm supposed to do. I made peace with the fact that this business is not what I'm supposed to do. It's really a stepping stone for other projects,'' she said.

The owner of two cats, Caulfield wants to ``effect great change for the animals of the world,'' she said. ``I'm very much at peace. I'm on a great show, playing a great character, surrounded by great people. I'm so blessed.''

But any fan of this critically acclaimed cult favorite knows that no one is ever safe in Sunnydale. Since the show's inception in 1997, beloved characters have come and gone - some via a casket and some in less sinister ways.

``Joss Whedon (series creator and executive producer) makes you invaluable and then he'll kill you. I told him, just give me a couple months warning so I don't buy a new house or plan a big trip.''

Rumors have been circulating for months that another prominent character will die this season. If Caulfield knows, she's not talking. What she would say is that tomorrow's episode, which focuses on the wedding of Anya and her beloved mortal, Xander (Nicholas Brendon), is full of surprises. ``It's the catalyst for a very interesting journey for Anya,'' Caulfield said.

This sixth season of the slayer - the first on UPN - has been different for viewers. There's no ``Big Bad,'' a term fans use to describe the season-long enemy who has defined each of the five previous seasons. Instead, the characters have wrestled with inner demons. ``I think (the series) has to evolve. I personally think the show has never been better,'' Caulfield said. ``By the end of the season, fans won't be disappointed. I think people will be pleased.''

What she and other cast members aren't pleased about is how the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences continually snubs ``Buffy.'' ``It's probably not `PC' for me to say, but we really do get angry about it,'' Caulfield said about the show's lack of Emmy nominations.

``Joss Whedon worked tremendously to make the show as solid as it is. It would be really fun to get all dressed up and go to the awards,'' she said. ``But now we can bitch and moan about the establishment.''

An establishment she's a part of in spite of herself.

[> Thanks, Ruf! -- OnM, 04:26:45 03/06/02 Wed

[> Thanks. -- yez, 12:29:01 03/06/02 Wed

A Question about Spike's Date, (Mildly Spoiler for HB) -- Wolfhowl3, 03:38:04 03/06/02 Wed

Was Spike's Date the Lead Singer of Bif Naked?


[> No -- Rufus, 03:49:19 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> Another question.... -- Tillow, 06:04:35 03/06/02 Wed

Was she vamp/human/demon?? Did they say? I didn't catch it.

[> [> [> Not as far as I could tell -- verdantheart, 06:05:21 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Another question.... -- skeeve, 09:18:55 03/06/02 Wed

She's a skank.

Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Zilla, 04:38:43 03/06/02 Wed

Has anyone else noticed the recent episodes are overall depressing? The first four seasons were great and season 5 was pretty good, but this season has been more sad and gray than all the others. Granted, Buffy has had a lot of growing up to do, but I have some questions.

First, she has saved the world countless times yet is forced to work fast food? give me a break. Even if she told the Watchers Council to get lost, and they supposedly have all this money, why not say, start paying or I stop slaying?
If they don't want to pay up, then let the world get sucked into a Hell dimension.

Second...Why is Willow living there and not paying any rent or helping out? She's as lazy as my loser Brother-in-Law. I think iit's time Buffy put her foot down.

Third, the whole Riley comes back thing was ridiculous. they should have left him in the jungle to get eaten by demons. What Spike said was true...Riley was not the long haul guy for Buffy.

Fourth, Joss lost a lot of comic potential with X/A and them being married. But no, the wedding had to end the way it did. If Xander wasn't ready, he never should have asked Anya to marry him. That's part of being an adult. And the whole time traveler thing was just too stupid. Xander just accepted the fact that the traveler was himself, never questioned anything and just accepted those glimpses into the future as truth.

And finally in the scenes for next week...Buffy in a mental institution...everything just a delusion...I think they could have made a much lighter ep had her life been normal and she was back to being a cutsie cheerleader...but no, once again we have to go with depressing.

David Gilmour of Pink Floyd said it is easier to write the sad songs...I think Joss just has decided it is easier to write depressing episodes then have some that aren't so sad. Sorry about the rant.

[> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Darby, 07:18:01 03/06/02 Wed

My son had a similar reaction - as that last Xander-Anya scene played out, he grumbled and his face darkened so much that I found myself watching him rather than the screen. When Xander left, he proclaimed how much he hated that nobody on the show is allowed to have a good relationship for too long. It struck me as an odd reaction from an 11-year-old.

And, you know? He's right! If this season is supposed to be a reflection of life, then it should show some success as well as some failure. They need to fix this.

[> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Robert, 07:39:52 03/06/02 Wed

>> "If this season is supposed to be a reflection of life, then it should show some success as well as some failure."

BtVS does show successes, even in season six. You may not see them as successes, because they are small successes, just as in real life. Willow's slow ascent out of the hell she created for herself is one example. Buffy's slow ascent out of depression is another. I would consider the two years that Xander and Anya loved each other and shared each other's company to be a rather major success. It is VERY hard for a child of an abuser to live a "normal" life. Of this I have direct and difficult experience. Xander recognises the potential abuser in himself, but doesn't know what to do about it. Xander is a very kind man who is in a very bad place right now.

REAL LIFE is full of small successes and small failures. Real life also occasionally includes bigger successes and bigger failures.

>> "My son had a similar reaction - as that last Xander-Anya scene played out, he grumbled and his face darkened so much that I found myself watching him rather than the screen."

Maybe your son is not yet old enough to be watch BtVS. Every episode of BtVS includes a warning that this show is not suitable for pre-teen children. I think you have just provided evidence here to support that.

[> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Darby, 07:59:11 03/06/02 Wed

I was talking specifically about relationships, not in general.

And I thought that at least several of the people here would have reactions similar to my son's, which is why I mentioned it - he's certainly old enough to handle the concepts, and the show is varied enough to give us lots to talk about. I mean, how often do you get to watch a show with your kid that allows you to discuss how some people connect sex with violence, or how to deal with changing roles and relationships (something schoolchildren know a lot about)? Just discussing why Xander might back out of his marriage was very valuable. He still saw it as a writers' trick, though, which is certainly a valid interpretation.

Just as an aside, though, I hope that you realize that you just criticized me as a parent with virtually no evidence to go on - I've tried not to let my natural defensive reaction creep in here, though...did it work?

[> [> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Kimberly, 08:40:04 03/06/02 Wed

Darby, I agree with you completely. In fact, I just gave up trying to respond because there is no way I can express myself and stay civil; the interesection between censorship and parenting is a difficult issue and oversimplifying it leads to trouble.

Your son's reaction was actually very similar to my husband's. In fact, our six-year-old watched the episode with us. He had several questions about various plot points, but was more interested in convincing his father to play chess with him. We had only one issue: my husband was furious and began cursing Joss (between HB, ST and the long wait for new Angel episodes, he's not a happy camper right now). Normally, our son would ignore this; my husband gets loudly emotionally wrapped up in his favorite episodes and our son is used to this. Unfortunately, since his name is Josh, we had to reassure him that it wasn't HIM Daddy was mad at.

[> [> [> [> De-Lurking to support Robert... -- GreatRewards, 08:48:23 03/06/02 Wed

Just as an aside, though, I hope that you realize that you just criticized me as a parent with virtually no evidence to go on"

Darby, I'm sure that Robert's had no intention of insulting your ability to parent. On the other hand, being a parent myself, I understand your reaction. However, you can't say that he had no evidence to support his statement.

The show's disclaimer DOES state that it is not intended for the younger audience. YOU stated that your son is 11. Put the two together and that's certainly enough evidence to suggest that your son might be too young for the show. Add to that the apparent affect the show is having on your son and what you have is WHOLE LOT of evidence supporting the theory that your son might be too young.

Now we all know that there are exceptions to every rule. Yes, it IS possible that your son is mature for 11. However, many people would agree that even a mature 11-year-old is still too young for much of the sexual content in BtVS (let alone the rampant violence, of which there is significantly less this season than previous). I think that's the case, even with parental guidance.

Now, having said all that, I want you to know that I support your right to make your own parenting decisions. Nobody can tell you how to raise your son. Everyone is going to have an opinion, and not everyone is going to agree on a single right way to do things.

I've tried to write this in a way that doesn't sound preachy (though I think I've failed in that attempt). The last thing I want is to start a big ol' war here on the board. I just wanted to clarify that I saw plenty of evidence to support Robert's theory, and that I don't think he was conciously criticizing you as a parent.

[> [> [> [> [> What Disclaimer? -- Serena, 11:34:55 03/07/02 Thu

Maybe you are still seeing a disclaimer before Buffy but I haven't seen one since the show moved to UPN. I've been assuming that that was a UPN decision rather than station by station but I don't know for sure. (Angel, on the WB, still gets the WB disclaimer). I've been surprised by the lack of a disclaimer given the show's sexual content this year.

[> [> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Robert, 08:49:43 03/06/02 Wed

>> "I've tried not to let my natural defensive reaction creep in here"

And, maybe some of my own defensive reaction creeped in here too, for which I apologize.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- GreatRewards, 08:51:42 03/06/02 Wed

This is just getting a little too "creepy", if you ask me. :-)

[> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- maddog, 08:14:53 03/06/02 Wed

WHile the first of your explainations make sense to me now I find your second comment very condescending. Just because he's 11 doesn't mean he doesn't or can't understand the world of Buffyverse. At 24, I was as frustrated as he is to see what seemed like the one stable relationship just disappear. And not coming from Xander's background I can't understand what he's going through...doesn't make it any less frustrating. Xander's made his way through quite a few obstacles in his life..I was just surprised to see him give up on this one so quickly.

[> [> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Angelina, 08:33:26 03/06/02 Wed

HELLO GUYS - Xander didn't give up on the relationship, he just knew he coudn't commit to getting married right at that time! I mean, forgetting the time traveling dumbass excuse, Xan just had to look at what was going on at that travisty called a wedding! I would have ran for the hills too! This is not the end of X/A. I think there will be a brief intermission, I just hope Anya does not decide evil is better. What do you guys think about an Anya - Spike relationship??????? Interesting huh? Also, do you really thing the writers are gonna do a major "Bobby in the Shower on Dallas" deal and write off Buffy's entire last year and a half, including her death and prehaps even the apperance of Dawn AND Joyce's death??????? WOW.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Zilla, 08:38:22 03/06/02 Wed

I hope not.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- maddog, 08:47:51 03/06/02 Wed

I haven't heard one person say anything to the contrary. I think those of us that are complaining just said that we were dissappointed that he made that specific decision. Knowing Anya however, and knowing how she doesn't completely understand human behavior, it's possible she may take this the wrong way. Hopefully not.

[> [> [> [> 11 and watching -- Hauptman, 11:41:47 03/07/02 Thu

Just to chime in, I think that the disclaimer at the beginning of the show is just to cover the networks ass. IMHO it is fine for an 11 year old or younger to watch a show like Buffy if their parent, in this case his mother, is sitting right there ready to answer any questions that might come up. This is why we have that silly PG-13 rating at the movies. It isn't to say that the movie is absolutely inappropriate for a youngster, but that it is up to the parents to decided and they have to be with them when they see it. The fact that this lucky lad is watching a show as complex as Buffy with someone who gets the finer points is a testimate to his maturity. At 11 I was still watching Star Trek strictly for the ray guns and space ships. I couldn't have cared less about the relationships. This kid is ahead of the curve.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: 11 and watching -- Marie, 01:32:27 03/08/02 Fri

I've been thinking about this all week, and wondering what effect BtVS has on my five-year- old...

Actually I was glad to read what you said, Hauptman, about watching ST strictly for the ray guns and space ships. As a single parent, I obviously worry sometimes that there's only me to judge this sort of thing, although he seems a happy, well-adjusted kid. My son doesn't watch BtVS at the time it's shown, because he's in bed, but he has certainly been there when I've watched the tapes at an earlier time. He's generally been playing or colouring or some such thing, and looks up at the screen when the scary monsters come on (he loves the monsters!). And he actually loves it when I chase him pretending to be Spike! I remember when I was little, I loved being scared, so long as I was reassured that "it's only pretend".

Being the trollop I am, I've always known when scenes are coming up I don't want him to see, so I simply don't play that tape if he's there, or switch off. He hasn't seen any of S6, and I don't think I'll be letting him. When he's eleven, I probably will, though. I keep a close eye on his reactions to what he's watching, and he hasn't had any nightmares yet.

Kimberly (if you read this), I know you have a six-year-old - does he actually sit and watch it with you?


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 6 and watching -- Kimberly, 06:18:42 03/08/02 Fri

Kimberly (if you read this), I know you have a six-year-old - does he actually sit and watch it with you?

When he feels like it. With the exception of Smashed (which we felt was a little too explicit for him) and Fear Itself (he's scared of skeletons), we let him watch when he wants, and have since it started when he was two. We don't let him watch it alone, and with the exception of Fear Itself, we've never had a problem.

From what I can see, the sexual content goes straight over his head. He likes the monsters, the characters, and for weeks after OMWF, went to sleep to a tape of it. (His Buffy Sing-a-Long tape :-D) He, of course, is a little young to catch the metaphorical, philosophical goodness, or even the ethical and moral greys, but he enjoys watching good-guy friends beat the bad guys.

I think by watching with him, keeping an eye on him to make sure he doesn't get upset, and talking to him and answering his questions, we can make it a positive experience. Certainly, at his age, the most important thing to him is spending time with his parents. (And I'm enjoying THAT as long as it lasts.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Kim. That's good to know. -- Marie, 08:16:38 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> small rays of light -- leslie, 12:38:43 03/06/02 Wed

The break-up of Xander and Anya did come in comparison to two rather sweet little scenes--Tara and Willow seemingly about to come together again, and Buffy and Spike being able to actually talk about their emotions and acknowledge them. It seems as though we have three couples at different stages on the road between break-up and reconciliation. The manner of reconciliation is yet to be determined--friends? lovers again?--but it's a change from "break up and leave town."

[> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- maddog, 07:57:49 03/06/02 Wed

I'm in complete agreement with an 11 year odd. :) He's right though, the Xander/Anya relationship was perfect...serious enough to have one good, lasting adult relationship, but also comical so we'd have some laughs in amongst this year's pain. I think Xander's fears were at least somewhat contrived too. I mean, once he found out that he was seeing his worst fears he should have known not to worry...instead he flips. I don't get it.

[> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Rendyl, 12:31:59 03/06/02 Wed

**He's right though, the Xander/Anya relationship was perfect**

No relationship is perfect. Xander and Anya go into marriage with some serious issues that have never been fully resolved. Like her centuries of being a demon that he sort of shunts away to the side and doesn't focus to closely on and his (Xander) constant correction and cutting down of Anya in public.

Anya is well...Anya, but she does deserve someone who accepts her, faults and all. Xander loves her but I think he saw that in some situations that is not enough. While I too am slightly annoyed at the lack of any stable romantic relationships I was glad Xander did not go through with the wedding since he was not sure of himself and what he should do.


[> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Hauptman, 11:56:37 03/07/02 Thu

"I mean, once he found out that he was seeing his worst
fears he should have known not to worry...instead he flips. I don't get it."

I tend to agree. Isn't this the same guy that gave Buffy the big, "You have to take a chance and really love Riley even if it's scary" speech?

I think it's lame. I predicted it. I knew it. But I still think it's lame.

[> [> You're right! -- Earl Allison, 09:55:19 03/06/02 Wed

Couldn't have said it better myself.

No matter WHAT you're going through, there are always things, even if they're little things, that make you smile, or make you happy.

THAT'S what is missing this season. It's ALL doom and gloom. God, the only positive thing last night was the continuing mending of fences between Willow and Tara, and that hardly compares to the crippling blow Xander dealt Anya.

While I applaud Xander's REASON, that he doesn't want to hurt Anya -- I've got a message for him, NOTHING in this life is certain, save death and taxes. If he's waiting for that perfect moment of clarity, it isn't coming. Like men in war and fear, if someone is totally lacking in doubt, to paraphrase the Duke (about men not being afraid in war), "Stay away from him, he's an idiot." A little doubt is normal -- although for Xander to be THAT thrown, he must have been chock-full already ...

Take it and run.

[> [> [> Re: You're right! -- Edward, 17:53:46 03/07/02 Thu

And on Buffy even death is not certain... :-)

[> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Robert, 07:27:10 03/06/02 Wed

>> " If Xander wasn't ready, he never should have asked Anya to marry him. That's part of being an adult."

Do you think that this never happens? Do you believe that just because Joss writes something, that is the way Joss believes it should be? Of course Xander should not have asked Anya to marry him if he isn't ready, but this is life. Don't forget that Xander and Anya were pretty sure that they were about to die (despite Xander's protestations) when Xander proposed to Anya. Now Xander is less worried about everyone dying and more worried his becoming an abusive husband.

>> "And the whole time traveler thing was just too stupid. Xander just accepted the fact that the traveler was himself, never questioned anything and just accepted those glimpses into the future as truth."

That is completely untrue! Xander knew that the "traveler" was not himself. Xander was not worried about Anya becoming a bitch and cheating on him. Xander was more worried about himself becoming something horrible, like his father. The visions did not put this idea into Xander's head. He already had them. The visions may have graphically emphasized them to the point where Xander could no longer suppress his worries.

>> "I think Joss just has decided it is easier to write depressing episodes then have some that aren't so sad."

Does this mean that you think Mr. Whedon is lazy?

[> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Zilla, 08:36:23 03/06/02 Wed

No, I don't think he is lazy but it is true about the depressing stuff being easier to write. i guess I am just upset because here we are with X and A and they are ready to get married and that should be a happy thing. and I guess X did do the right thing by not going through with it when he was afraid of what he may become but can't there be one happy couple on one show anywhere? That's part of the reason I stopped watching NYPD Blue. Everyone was/is disfunctional and can't have a normal happy relationship. Please, the world is not like that. Yes there are abusive relationships out there and yes we do tend to turn into our parents whether we like it or not, but if we recognize that we can make the effort to change that. I know I did.

[> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Lyonors, 13:24:04 03/06/02 Wed

>>Do you think that this never happens? Do you believe that just because Joss writes something, that is the way Joss believes it should be? Of course Xander should not have asked Anya to marry him if he isn't ready, but this is life. Don't forget that Xander and Anya were pretty sure that they were about to die (despite Xander's protestations) when Xander proposed to Anya. Now Xander is less worried about everyone dying and more worried his becoming an abusive husband.

Hear, Hear! I'm so glad someone thinks the same way I do! Inasmuch as Xander had the ring and had all the intention in the world of asking Anya to marry him, he -was- waiting for the "right" time, wasn't he? If death hadn't come hopping along threatening the very fabric of their existence, I think that Xander would have walked around for a couple more months with that damn diamond in his pocket. Which is also evident in his postponing of the actual announcement.

>>That is completely untrue! Xander knew that the "traveler" was not himself. Xander was not worried about Anya becoming a bitch and cheating on him. Xander was more worried about himself becoming something horrible, like his father. The visions did not put this idea into Xander's head. He already had them. The visions may have graphically emphasized them to the point where Xander could no longer suppress his worries.

I also have to agree here on the time traveller issue. The Xand-man has proven time and again that he isn't the idiot that he has convinced himself that he is. He knew that the man wasn't him...but what he showed him were his own fears manifested in the most horrible way possible. How many times do you think little Xander thought his father (or mother) was actually going to kill the other? Pretty often I'd bet, judging by his flinching reactions to their benders. His immediate reaction after being restored to his vision-free state was "is she okay? what happened? did i hurt her?" he is terrified of creating his parent's relationship within his own, and most of all, he is terrified of hurting Anya. This is vaguely reminicent of Oz's leaving Willow to learn about the wolf within himself so that he would never hurt Willow, knowingly or unknowingly.


[> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long):In defense of Willow -- Calluna, 10:02:45 03/06/02 Wed

Excuse me, but who do you think has been, basically, a nanny to Dawn all this time? Ever since Willow cleaned up her act and Buffy started working at DmP, Willow has been keeping track of Dawn. Willow takes her to the mall, to the Bronze. Keeps track of her. IMHO Willow has more than earned her keep. And since the house looks pretty clean, I think we can assume that it's been Willow and Dawn doing that as well. It's certainly been shown that Buffy has no time.
Sorry for the mini-rant, but Willow derserves some credit.

[> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- dream of the consortium, 12:48:58 03/06/02 Wed

I'm a little surprised that so many people seem to think that the show is unrealistic in its portrayal of relationship - that it unnecessarily makes all relationships "dysfunctional." I would say all relationships are flawed, so more so than others. A perfect relationship doesn't exist. More to the point, most of the characters in this show are about twenty-one years old. Not very many people find permanent relationships at that age, and, even if they do, rarely have they developed the relationships to the point that the major aspects have been worked out. A series which featured only unhappy couples in their thirties or forties would be depressing, but college-age couples are nearly always in turmoil. Also, I would say there are some very positive relationships on the show. Willow may have screwed up in her relationship with Tara, but she has tried to set it right, and a reconciliation seems on the way. Their relationship has been very healthy for a (at that age) very long time, and even their break-up has been mature and lacking in hostility.

Of course, the friendships in the Scoobie gang are some of the most complex, loving and solid relationships ever presented on television, but I suppose people are more concerned about the romantic side of things.

[> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Rattletrap, 13:49:24 03/06/02 Wed

Good point. Joss has also said many times that good and stable relationships don't make for great TV. It's a bit like a newspaper headline that says "Nobody in Fargo, North Dakota Got Laid Off Today." It maybe technically true, but it doesn't make you want to read the story. In six years over two television shows, we have yet to see a happy relationship because those aren't particularly interesting from a dramatic standpoint. I want to see X and A live happily ever after just as much as the next viewer, but that means I've become emotionally invested in the characters just like the writers want me to--that is what makes this show work.

[> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Terrapin, 14:57:58 03/06/02 Wed

I thought it too be quite funny, while reading this thread, my mother, who has OCD and other psychological problems comes storming in and starts to scream and yell at me b/c of something that my brother did wrong. I know that she was only taking her anger out on me b/c she was upset. And I know that she will never get better. But that doesn't stop me from having a future and becoming a good person. And I know that I will not become her. Trust me.

So I will continue to say that life is a journey with many, many, many, large bumps in the road. A show like Buffy really puts life in perspective for me. The characters always face tough, hard, and sometimes its seems, impossible situations. However, they stay strong and fight to come out as better people. Even when the sun is shinning, a storm is on its way.(In Hell's Bells, it does rain during the wedding)

"Brave the strom to come, for it sure looks like rain."

-Grateful Dead

[> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- anom, 00:15:44 03/07/02 Thu

"And I know that she will never get better."

Maybe not "never"--they're learning more about OCD & related disorders all the time & developing more reliable & specific treatments. You never know.

[> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- Terrapin, 05:50:25 03/07/02 Thu

Well, based on the situation, I highly doubt that my mother will ever go seek medical treatment. She rarley goes to a regular doctor for check-ups. She thinks that by taking like 50 vitamins a day and spoonfuls of vinegar that she will never get sick. I tell her that she has to watchout for breast cancer b/c her mother gotit. But she refuses to even get a mamogram. She is so damn stubborn. Her way is the only way.

[> [> [> [> Re: Hells Bells (spoilers, rants and a little long) -- anom, 21:31:51 03/07/02 Thu

Sorry to hear it, Terrapin. But it looks like you've got a good perspective on it, & I'm glad to see that. Hope you've also got good sources of support. (I don't mean to get too personal, I'm just sending good wishes.)

[> Its this damn Precedent thing... -- Eric, 19:36:20 03/07/02 Thu

By and large the most successful Buffy eps have been downers. So perhaps the writers are producing such...

Mild UPN Rant -- neaux, 04:40:22 03/06/02 Wed

Was anyone else annoyed by the UPN Promos for their upcoming new Tuesday night shows.. Stickered in the Bottom Corner of your TV...
Did UPN take a cue from FX to make annoying things disrupt the Buffy experience?

I know .. I know... the DVDs are the way to go to thoroughly enjoy Buffy....

[> An opposing, um, rant -- Knight of Cups, 05:34:23 03/06/02 Wed

As annoying as it is, it's proof of how valuable Buffy is to the UPN.

In fact, pivotal is probably the right word. Buffy's driving their drama programming.

As long as that's true, it means more promotionals, more money for production, bargaining leverage for everyone involved in the show and a virtual guarantee that the show will be cancelled when Joss and Marti want it cancelled, not when the network dictates.

It's a great position to be in for everyone involved in the production and it means great things for the fans.

[> [> I wish it meant fewer commercials -- verdantheart, 06:04:01 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> I wish! -- La Duquessa, 06:44:56 03/06/02 Wed

And if there was a Vengance, er, Justice, Demon around I would! But what would I wish...?

Here in Arizona Buffy is so valuable to UPN that they've preempted the show for THREE weeks in a row and played the makeup eps, oh, Saturday at 7, Sunday at 3, Saturday at 6 and sometimes not at all. Schedule remains the same for the immediate Buffy maybe be important to us and to ME, but local UPN seems to give not a hoot. While I appreciate the more $$ and less standards that UPN has brought to Buffy, I have to say that the WB never missed an ep...

So whatever I would wish on UPN would be painful, prolongued and involve very small insects.

End of Rant. Thank you for listening!

[> [> [> Re: I wish! -- matching mole, 09:05:46 03/06/02 Wed

Unless I'm mistaken the decision of a local station to pre-empt network programming has absolutely nothing to do with the network itself. I don't think UPN has any say in the matter if the Phoenix affiliate decides to show local sports programming. The station's contract with the Suns may even predate the movement of BtVS from WB to UPN.

I can definitely sympathize with your frustration however. When I lived in Phoenix I seem to remember shows that I watched getting delayed by local sporting events pretty regularly. And I shouldn't even mention how my life-long hatred of football was developed through its encursions into my favorite half hour of TV as a child - Wild Kingdom. But I just did.

[> you're lucky -- purplegrrl, 13:31:23 03/06/02 Wed

You're lucky you got to see the Buffy promos. My UPN station didn't even bother to show the end credits last night, let alone the promo for next week. Hopefully I'll get the Buffy promo tonight during "Enterprise."

Following up. (Spoilers for Hell's Bells) -- Darby, 07:21:37 03/06/02 Wed

Who consoles Anya?

I think we might know right away whether this is going to go in a good direction - Willow would certainly be able to make Anya understand Xander's reasons - or a bad direction - we know if Anya's ranting to Hallie that bad stuff is coming.

But what if it's Buffy? Or Spike?

[> Unfortunately (Spoilers for Hell's Bells) -- neaux, 07:32:22 03/06/02 Wed

Unfortunately, next weeks preview is all about Buffy going insane, and not a sign of Anya and Xander's storyline..

I hope they dont leave us hanging around for a full episode..

[> [> Re: Unfortunately (Spoilers for Hell's Bells) -- Deeva, 11:54:53 03/06/02 Wed

And also, according to TV Guide the week after "Normal Again" is a re-run of Tabula Rasa.

[> [> Doesn't alternate dimension/screwy timeline have vengeance demon written all over it? -- yez, 12:25:01 03/06/02 Wed

In "Dopplegandland" (sp.) we saw Anya's answer to the wish of Buffy never coming to Sunnydale. After seeing the previews, I wondered if we'd be seeing Anya's (or Hallie's) answer to a wish of Xander never having been born, or somesuch.


[> [> [> Re: Doesn't alternate dimension/screwy timeline have vengeance demon written all over it? -- leslie, 12:32:03 03/06/02 Wed

Or yet another wacky raygun attack courtesy of the Band of Evil Weenies.

[> [> Re: Unfortunately (Spoilers for Hell's Bells) -- Rattletrap, 13:35:19 03/06/02 Wed

"I hope they dont leave us hanging around for a full episode."

More than that, I think after next week BtVS goes on hiatus for the usual 4 or 5 weeks, 'til mid-April or so. They better resolve the X/A storyline next week; but it would be just like them to leave us hanging.

Where's Tony (Spoilers for Hell's Bells) -- Brian, 09:09:59 03/06/02 Wed

Poor Xander, not a guy in sight to relate to except for Spike, and he booked early. Even his Bestman is a Bestwoman. No wonder he freaked out. However, to me this was a plot driven episode, not a character driven episode.
Did I believe Xander's decision? Not for a minute! This is not the Xander I've seen for the last five years. Sure he is afraid that he will become like his alcoholic, abusive, father. He has a right to be afraid. But he has continually stated that he will not become his father, "that's not the way". Last night's episode was a cop out to a "Dawson's Creek" mentality. Most depressing, as this has been one of the best seasons of Buffy.

[> His absence bothers me also, -- Sophist, 11:00:25 03/06/02 Wed

and I think they should have said something. Of course, we all complain about "plotholes" that frequently aren't, and we want more dialogue than can possibly fit in 42 minutes. Still, Giles was so integral to the show that his absence seemed to deserve some mention.

I can't agree with you about the believability of Xander's decision. It's odd -- I had major problems with believability in AYW, though most people didn't. OTOH, I don't at all share your reaction about Xander.

I expected that when Xander's moment came, it would involve his faults as shown on the show over the last 5+ years. Instead, it focused on his insecurity stemming mostly from his upbringing before we ever met him. No surprise here; that insecurity has been signaled repeatedly in different episodes, Restless and The Replacement being the most notable.

Though I still look for closure on some of Xander's less attractive moments, the theme of "Grow up" makes his dilemma last night a natural. We all want to blame our parents for what we are and even what we will become. Growing up means taking responsibility for our own lives. Forcing Xander to face that -- to recognize that he does NOT have to re-live his father's life -- makes perfect sense to me.

[> [> I'm beginning to suspect we might be trapped in the dimension with no Giles -- Annie, 11:50:37 03/06/02 Wed

As ME seem to have no recollection of him ever having existed.

ages -- nay *peeking out from behind a wall*, 10:51:07 03/06/02 Wed

My friend and I were discussing the actors and their birthdays. We couldn't find the year that James was born. I went looking and found that it was posted as 1969, but that can't be right. He doesn't look to be that old. Can someone PLESE let me know what year he was actually born or at least a web page that could correctly inform me.

[> Well... -- Darby, 10:57:18 03/06/02 Wed

I put "marsters birthdate" into the Google search engine. The first three pages gave me 1971, 1970, and 1969.

I suspect that there may not be an easily-accessed answer to this one...

[> [> Re: Well... -- Doriander, 11:22:33 03/06/02 Wed


I put "marsters birthdate" into the Google search engine. The first three pages gave me 1971, 1970, and 1969

Spike was introduced as barely 200, then he himself claimed he's only 126(or 136?), but was in his 20's when turned in 1880.

How fitting.

[> [> Re: Well... -- luvthistle1, 18:34:33 03/06/02 Wed

I saw that. The first time, I just saw James Masters eyes, it scared the heck out of me.I think that is so cool.

[> I think it's been reliably established.. -- Dyna, 13:00:18 03/06/02 Wed

..that his real birth year is earlier than that, but I feel bad talking specifics because I was at one of his appearances this summer and this horrible girl marched up to him and point blank said "Is it true you're actually [such and such age]?" It's unfortunate that age is such a big deal in show business, that actors feel like they need to fudge theirs, but there you go.

He does look amazing, but then, as someone who is just a few years younger than him, I no longer regard people in their 30s as some kind of alien life form, so he just looks like a handsome man to me.

[> [> Re: I think it's been reliably established.. -- Herself, 13:05:45 03/06/02 Wed

I'm told he'd been taking 10 years off his age until recently, and that he's in fact 39 or possibly 40 by now. Which I think he completely looks.

[> [> Re: I think it's been reliably established.. -- leslie, 16:17:35 03/06/02 Wed

Sunblock does wonders.

[> Re: ages -- Kevin, 16:35:39 03/06/02 Wed

The biography at the website of the Bloody Awful Poet Society has a birthdate of August 20, 1962 in Greenville, CA.

I don't know their sources, but they seem like pretty committed James Marsters fans.

[> Re: ages -- Wisewoman, 17:55:24 03/06/02 Wed

JM will, in fact, turn 40 this year.

And yes, he does look amazing for his age, but he really, really works at keeping himself in shape, and besides, 40 is not ancient...


PS: This isn't the first time this has come up. The discussion can get quite heated, and I'm really not sure why. Would it help to say you can really trust me on this?

[> [> Re: ages -- juliaabra, 01:43:06 03/07/02 Thu

in fact on another board which i visit they banned the topic! but we should all look so good...oy!

[> [> Wisewoman -- Why is it such a controversial topic....just curious -- Rachel, 06:07:00 03/07/02 Thu

Juliaabra also mentioned that discussions of JM's age had been banned at another forum. Am I totally missing something? Why such a hot topic? Can you enlighten me??? Thanks.

[> [> [> Re: Wisewoman -- Why is it such a controversial topic....just curious -- Annie, 06:24:49 03/07/02 Thu

It's controversial because there is so much "proof" being tossed around, and until JM makes an actual statement about his age it's pretty much just words against words (and the requisite birth certificate(s)).

I think juliabraa is talking about the BC&S, where the topic was declared dead because it always turned into a heated rehashing of the same old arguments, taking up a *lot* of valuable board space.

[> [> [> [> Thinner and Thinner = Younger and Younger -- Rachel, 07:12:14 03/07/02 Thu

A&E's Biography profiled an actor who lost 40 pounds to play a teenager, despite being in at least his mid-thirties. (I think it was Nick Nolte, not sure). Okay, I know it's been hashed to death already, but Buffy seems to be disappearing before our very eyes. All of them, except Xander, get thinner and thinner each season. Didn't Stephen King write a thriller about this?? Anyway, JM is incredibly trim and "cut" so I can totally believe that he could shave 10 years off his age. But I guess we'll never know for sure.

[> [> [> [> PS -- I'm sure there's a lot of pressure to play a vampire because... -- Rachel, 07:16:02 03/07/02 Thu

He has to remain ageless. That must be quite a clause in the job contract! IMO, JM does a better job at the ageless thing than DB.

[> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- Annir, 07:35:39 03/07/02 Thu

I guess JM is just one of those genetically fortunate people who age really well.

I'm not sure about losing weight as a way of looking younger, though - you look more fit, but the strain shows in the face.

[> [> [> Re: Wisewoman -- Why is it such a controversial topic....just curious -- WW, 09:14:44 03/07/02 Thu

Annie pretty much covered it above. I think it has to do with the level of "fanaticism" in a fan--or maybe fantasy? I mean, why would it be so important to anyone? It's an actor, playing a character, on a TV show. As long as he's appropriate for the role, his age should be immaterial.


[> [> [> [> The lower the stakes -- matching mole, 09:39:26 03/07/02 Thu

...the fiercer the argument. I can't remember where I heard that but it seems to be a sound general principle.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The lower the stakes -- leslie, 10:06:11 03/07/02 Thu

I don't know who originally said it, but it was in reference to academic infighting.

[> The tv guide link in an above post said 30. TV guide wrong? NOOOOO! (disallusioned me) -- bienbizare, 12:48:25 03/07/02 Thu

C- Section/Minister/Doctor/Minotaur (Spoilers for AYW, HB & preview for next week)) -- Jon, 12:40:27 03/06/02 Wed

I've been lurking around this board for several weeks now, enjoying every minute of my lurking. You're all very brilliant and you've enriched my Buffy fandom immeasurably. I've decided to post at long last because one major thing I expected to find people talking about today regarding last night's episode hasn't appeared yet. So here goes...

What was up with Buffy's improvised explanation to Anya as to why the wedding had to be delayed? I wish I had a transcript to refer to, but here's what I remember: the minister had to go away to perform an emergency C-section - because he's a doctor as well as a minister. She combined those words to make a word similar to "minotaur" but then backed off saying, "but he's not a minotaur." Later, while entertaining the wedding-goers with charades, she appeared to be pantomiming a bull with her fingers pointing out of her head. Someone in the crowd apparently guessed what the charade was, but unfortunately I didn't hear what the answer was.

So what? Well, shouldn't Buffy's use of the word "doctor" ring bells after the Spike & Eggs situation in AYW? And those eggs hatched prematurely - should have been kept frozen - and now we have Buffy talking about a C-section, a method of delivering a baby either prematurely or due to complications in the birthing process.

Then there's the minotaur question. I know that many of you are great with mythology, so please run with this one. My one thought is that the minotaur myth is going to play into next week's episode in a "Buffy's mind as labyrinth" sort of way (think Weight of the World). Or am I missing something more immediately pertinent?

I'm sort of frantically pointing at things here without quite assigning to words to them. I don't have the words just yet but I KNOW some of you can go great places with this material.

Please let me know if I've failed to properly observe any of your etiquette. And forgive my blathery- ness.


[> Welcome!!!!!! -- VampRiley, 13:29:04 03/06/02 Wed

Please let me know if I've failed to properly observe any of your etiquette. And forgive my blathery-ness.

Your etiquette was fine. Although you have done something that I am guilty of many times in the past. Apologizing. It's okay, but not really necessary in instances such as this. There is nothing foolish about what you've posted. Thinking and posting about little details that you can see having a connection and trying to come up with some "theory" is normal for all of us. There have been some weird connections through the years, let me tell you. But that's one of the perks of coming here on a regular basis.

But don't feel like you shouldn't post something 'cause you think it might be wierd. Sometimes very long and in-depth thread discussions have a habit of coming from the strangest posts.

Welcome. Hope you post again.


[> As for her wordage...(small spoilers for Hell's Bells and next week) -- VampRiley, 13:43:23 03/06/02 Wed

I did think it was odd for an explaination in its totality. The priest being a doctor as well...possibly. As for the use of the word "doctor", doctors get called away at a moments notice all the time. Seemed like a good plan. But the minotaur part was definitly weird.

The labyrinth is a good metaphor for the state Buffy's mind gets into. She thinks she's in a mental institution. And all the slayer stuff never happened and her parents are at least on speaking terms. And either getting to the center of the maze (figuring out just what is real and what isn't) or trying to get out of the maze (returning to reality) looks exactly like what she has to do, unless the others figure out a way to get her back to the real world before she does.


[> Re: C-Section/Minister/Doctor/Minotaur (Spoilers for AYW, HB & preview for next week)) -- Caroline, 14:14:05 03/06/02 Wed

As far as I understand it, the myth of the minotaur is about lust, greed, possession, having and not letting go etc. Briefly, Minos, king of Crete, has to sacrifice a sacred white bull to appease Poseidon, god of the seas. When the time comes, Minos doesn't want to let go of the beautiful while bull therefore he subsitutes the sacrifice. He gets found out, and the revenge of the gods is that Minos' queen Pasiphae, is smitten by an uncontrollable desire for the white bull, manages to mate with it through some amazing technical feat of a hollow cow and bore the minotaur, half man half bull. Minos banished the ugly minotaur to the labyrinth where regular sacrifices were made to it. Eventually the minotaur is killed by Theseus, with the aid of Minos' daughther Ariadne (and her thread).

So the minotaur is really all the horrible, disgusting parts of ourselves that we inherit from our ancestors, the black sheep, the monstrous, greedy prodigal. It's appetite is never sated, it can never have enough, it cares for no-one and nothing. And this is what has to be hidden away. It is the child of greed (Minos) and lust (Pasiphae). It is in so many ways unworthy.

The application I have for this is that this is the way Xander feels about himself. He comes from such a dysfunctional family that he feels himself unworthy. He carries the stigma of his upbringing and it colours all his interactions on a very subtle level. His future life with Anya, although revealed to be a deception, is in some ways playing out these themes. He becomes a shell after Buffy's death and neglects his wife (Minos), as a result his wife (Pasiphae) becomes unfaithful and he spawns a child who is half demon.

There's also another application - that is is a monster from the unconscious (okay, you know I can't do a post without mentioning that!) and Xander identifies with it rather than rejects or represses it. He wanders around in his daily life, being cheerful, funny and quirky (over-compensating) but deep down he knows what he is. We comes out every now and again in his sniping and criticism of Anya.

We've seen in previous shows - The Zeppo, The Replacement that there are two sides of Xander, the person he thinks he is and the person that he wants to be. He doesn't feel that he can be the person that he wants to be. This also ties in with the Restless foreshadowing - not having a heart, you'll never get out of the basement, our line stops here. Isn't this season kinda looking like Alice in Wonderland? Everybody has what they really want but they just don't recognise it. Xander has always had a big, huge heart, it's there all along and he needs to learn to see it. More growing up stuff.

Gotta go, but will post more in-depth stuff later.

[> [> Re: C-Section/Minister/Doctor/Minotaur (Spoilers for AYW, HB & preview for next week)) -- Peanut, 14:30:07 03/06/02 Wed

OR, it could be that MINIster and docTOR make "minitor", which she realized sounded like "minotaur" after she said it. She was babbling! Trying to fill time!

Come on folks, sometimes a cigar is *just* a cigar.

Now, the juggling: Clearly this represents her inability to keep her social life, slaying life, and real life responsibilities in balance. The question is, which ball did she drop? The preview tells us it's the third...

[> [> [> In defense of the minotaur being more than a cigar... -- Jon, 15:20:40 03/06/02 Wed

...I simply found it too striking: she not only mixed up that word salad that ended up with "Minotaur" but she then did the minotaur-ish pantomime in a scene that followed. And there's this: a friend of mine points out that Dawn was speaking to a horned teen-demon when she accidentally blurted out in front of Anya that Xander had disappeared. Of course I guess "demon" often equals "horned," but...

But I'm still most struck by the fact that Buffy's mind went from "minister" to "doctor" when the whole Spike as the Doctor deal went down just last week. And many here have pointed out that it's weird from the get-go that Spike would be called "The Doctor" when Joel Gray's "Doc" has every reason to be Spike's mortal enemy. "Doctor" is just too loaded a term at this juncture, IMO, to be nothing but babble.

And, of course, doctors are going to be central in next week's episode - doctors purporting to help Buffy through the labyrinth of her psychoses. At least it looks that way to me.


[> [> [> [> A cigar is *rarely* a cigar in the Jossverse -- Tillow, 17:00:50 03/06/02 Wed

_¨??i?it was, the reason we're on this board is to look deeper, to make the connections, ya know?

Good catch Jon. I wouldn't have thought anything of the Minitaur thing but from Caroline's post I think it's obvious that the connection was intentional.

[> [> [> Re: C-Section/Minister/Doctor/Minotaur (Spoilers for AYW, HB & preview for next week)) -- leslie, 16:09:10 03/06/02 Wed

Or possibly an indication that she is speaking "bull"? Actually, I go for both explanations. A Freudian slip--she knows she's speaking bull, but it's significant bull.

Or she's feeling horny...

[> [> [> [> I would have said that she was bullish on Xander and Anya's future -- JodithGrace, 17:14:49 03/06/02 Wed

except that she knew that Xander was missing. I too was struck by Buffy's use of Doctor after last week. She could have said that the minister was also a volunteer fireman and had to go put out a fire, though Firester, or Miniman, don't work all that well. I dunno..maybe Buffy has the name Doctor on the brain for some reason.

[> [> [> [> I would have said that she was bullish on Xander and Anya's future -- JodithGrace, 17:16:08 03/06/02 Wed

except that she knew that Xander was missing. I too was struck by Buffy's use of Doctor after last week. She could have said that the minister was also a volunteer fireman and had to go put out a fire, though Firester, or Miniman, don't work all that well. I dunno..maybe Buffy has the name Doctor on the brain for some reason.

[> [> [> [> Re: C-Section/Minister/Doctor/Minotaur (Spoilers for AYW, HB & preview for next week)) -- Farstrider, 14:28:24 03/07/02 Thu

We _know_ she's feeling horny. . .

[> [> [> Re: C-Section/Minister/Doctor/Minotaur (Spoilers for AYW, HB & preview for next week)) -- GreatRewards, 12:40:23 03/07/02 Thu

Yes, sometimes a cigar *is* just a cigar. However, depending on where it's placed, a cigar can provide vastly different kinds of pleasure.

Think about it...

[> [> More on Xander, Theseus, the Minotaur and the labyrinth -- Caroline, 20:07:01 03/06/02 Wed

In my earlier post, I said that Xander had two sides, one side which he wants to be and the one that he thinks he is. I think it's quite possible that these are symbolized by Theseus and the Minotaur. Essentially Theseus and the Minotaur are aspects of the same thing, they form a duality. Within each of us, and within Xander, there is a basic conflict between the bestial, monstrous side and the human, heroic side. Xander has such a desire to do good and be loyal and whenever he has a purpose (whenever Theseus is given the ball of string) he can accomplish a task but without a purpose, he is just desire run rampant. To me, that seemed to be what was happening in the vision he got. Buffy died, he lost his purpose. And when Xander loses his purpose, he becomes the minotaur, the child of greed and lust - which was definitely shown to be the case with Anthony Harris and a somewhat lesser extent with Jessica.

As for the labyrinth that the minotaur was enclosed in, it was so complex and so impenetrable because you could not allow the beast who fed on human flesh to escape and eat human flesh. That would be bad. So the labyrinth is the symbol of the constraints and enclosures that we place around out rampant greed, lust, desires so that they do not 'consume' others as well as ourselves. One could say that it traps the demon part of us. I'm not sure that it's a symbol of much else but it could have something to do with Buffy's experiences next week but the symbolism of enclosing runaway desires does not seem to fit what we know of her experiences from the previews.

Just a side note: Just as Aphrodite smites Hades with the arrow of love for Persephone, she also smites Pasiphae with uncontrollable desire for the white bull, to punish Minos for his greed in wanting to keep the white bull as well as the favour that Poseidon granted him by giving him mastery over the seas. Gotta love a woman who is supposed to be in the love game but is really into vengeance underneath. Not the type of vengeance of the Erinyes, where she destroys people but where she gives them too much of a good thing!

[> [> [> Re: More on Xander, Theseus, the Minotaur and the labyrinth -- manwitch, 10:28:10 03/07/02 Thu

I always love your posts.

I'm curious about the smiting Pasiphae part, and how or if Buffy would ever follow such a path, i.e. the woman as vehicle for the punishment of a man through the loss of his naked property rights.

But at anyrate, I feel that you are in the heads of these writers. I think they are doing a great job in terms of what I call the "symbol set." The referents that the symbols and metaphors point to have to be handled just as deftly as the characters themselves. And you consistently point to how that is being done.

But I gotta confess, I felt they left the characters at the door this last time out. I didn't even feel like I was watching Buffy, I was so confused by everybody, doing things that just made no sense to me for what I knew of them.

I see what they tried to do with Xander, but I just don't believe that's where he was. I don't believe he would make such a decision without talking to Buffy or Willow. I don't believe his cowardly side would look at the gathering in that room and not find anya, d'hoffryn and halfrek far more intimidating than his father. I don't believe he would've felt that the wedding was the only time he could escape that future. I don't believe he would really be worried about that future. I don't believe that Buffy, Willow and the Bridesmaid posse wouldn't have gathered around anya and made Xander stand and deliver. If he left the church, I don't believe Buffy and Willow wouldn't have gone and grabbed him back. I certainly don't believe it would be lost on Buffy and especially Willow that Xander was doing this to them, and not just anya. I don't believe they wouldn't be furious with him.

Since we're talking about what I don't believe, I don't believe that Giles would have failed to attend, unless he was dead. I don't believe that if, for some unbelievable reason, Giles wasn't there, that nobody would have commented on it. "Dude, they only have 42 minutes." Yes, and 40 of those would have been spent talking about Giles. I don't believe that angel and cordy wouldn't have been invited, and I expect they would have attended. This small group of 8-10 people owes each other an incalculable number of life debts and have fought multiple apoclypti together. Marriages never happen on this show and it would have been a big deal that they all would have marked. I don't believe that if, for some reason, Angel and Cordy had not attended, that no one would comment or care.

I don't believe that none of the demon guests would care or comment about the fact that the slayer was in the bridal party. I don't believe that none of them would care or comment about Spike's presence.

In violating the established characters in favor of the cliches of standing someone up at the altar and a drunken brawl between the two families, they oddly enough skipped over the most potentially interesting and entertaining aspects of the event. The tension between Buffy and the demon guests for example. Romantic interactions at the reception. Willow telling Xander what this day meant to her. Tara and Willow having a substantive conversation about what this day meant to willow and what it implied about her sexuality or their relationship. The chance to see Giles again. The chance, in fact, to have Giles fly into LA and have him drop by the AI gang on his way to the wedding, perhpas right before Wesley makes his big move. The chance to have Cordy come back and bring the groo. To have Xander meet the groo, and to have Anya meet the groo. To have Wesley pull his shenanigans because he had the opportunity of Angel and Cordelia being in Sunnydale. These are just a few of the things that occur to me on the fly. I don't want to judge the show on what I wanted it to be, because I know it has its own purposes, but to my mind, all of these possibilities are simply more interesting than what they actually did.

I was just really disappointed.

Your posts are what is keeping me afloat. I guess I understand now how you felt about the drug addiction metaphor.

[> [> [> [> Re: More on Xander, Theseus, the Minotaur and the labyrinth -- Caroline, 11:05:59 03/07/02 Thu

Manwitch, you put me to the blush. May I return the appreciation to you and let you know how much I look forward to your contributions and look forward to our dialogue? Many thanks for your generosity.

Let me state upfront that I really did enjoy the episode as it was rolling. I agree with you that Giles should have been there or it should have been addressed in some way. That was a serious omission, esp. since both Xander and Anya were close to him. As for Angel and Cordy - Anya never knew them, Xander never liked 'dead boy' and they haven't seen them in years (and they're on different networks) so I can understand why they're not there. But I also get why you and others would feel that this was neglected - it should have been addressed.

I think your point about the credibility of Xander's actions is the most grave. With all the attention given to other storylines, there wasn't enough buildup to what happened - ie, Xander freaked. I think all the references to bulls and the minotaur clues us in to the symbolism and story the writers want us to see but I agree with you that it did feel clunky precisely because there wasn't enough history and beating us over the head with the bull anvils is not a substitute for a bit more buildup in previous episodes.

But, given what we know of his psychological state from the mythical struggle between Theseus and the minotaur, I did think it was credible in this episode. As for Buffy and Willow's actions - I agree. But here again, I think that there are secrets being kept by everyone this season, the scoobies are being inconsistent friends here and being preoccupied with themselves, so I guess I didn't feel as let down as you.

Once again, many thanks, I feel the love and return it twofold. Don't despair - I hate the addiction thing but I'm finding solace in the other storylines. Let's just hang in there and have faith. In previous seasons I've learnt to hold on until the end and I've never been disappointed yet.

[> [> [> [> [> Correction -- Caroline, 11:23:47 03/07/02 Thu

Meant to say Anya never knew Angel (unless I'm mistaken?), of course she knew Cordy. Sorry.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Correction -- JBone, 16:49:29 03/07/02 Thu

Anya briefly met Angel in Pangs, Season 4.

[> [> [> [> [> I found Xander's actions believable -- dream of the consortium, 11:36:25 03/07/02 Thu

He's a very young man still. He asked his former-demon girlfriend to marry him when he thought the world was going to end. He didn't follow through on announcing the engagement for a very long time. His girlfriend tends toward the dominant side, and she was nagging him to tell his friends until he did so in a happy moment. He is exposed to the very high stress of not just a wedding (high- stress enough), but an attempt at a traditional wedding with the groom's side drunk and the bride's side all demony.
He has been feeling doubts (the look on his face when Willow points out that he will be listening to the Yay, Money! show for the rest of his life, the horror at seeing Halfrek all demon-ed out, etc) ever since the engagement was announced. And then...

And then a man comes along and makes him feel what is would be like to loathe his wife, and himself. To feel helpless and resentful. And the point was made very clearly - he didn't just "show" Xander what his life would be like, not a movie of his future. He said, "You will feel everything I felt." And Xander comes away horrified. He knows that's not the future, but tells Anya (I wish I had the script, but it's something like) "Those feelings weren't new." The feelings his crazy, horrible father has about his wife and his life are the SAME ones Xander has had in moments. That's the horror - that the feelings that lead you to make a sarcastic comment about your girfriend and the ones that lead you to kill your wife may be different in degree, but not in kind. Imagine, if you will, that you had a chance to be, to feel in the place of, a murderer. And, instead of the feelings being something horrible and new, the feelings were....familiar. The thing you are and the thing you hate turn out to be shockingly similar, not the opposites you imagined. This is a running theme for this season - do your actions or your feelings define your identity? Willow's refusal to believe she might not be "one of the good guys" because she feels like one, Buffy refusing to believe she could be the same Buffy because she has feelings that seem wrong. Xander realized his feelings aren't so far from his father's. What he didn't understand - and why should he, so quickly, in the horror of the moment - is that your actions define you, not your feelings, and that actions can affect feelings. We love those we are good to, not just the other was around. But, that's a big lesson for a man to grasp, and not likely to come without some time to process the shock.

Add to this nightmare that Xander has always believed that nature will out (Angel, Spike), and look at the things he has been raised with. Do you really think he was in any condition to say his vows at that point? He didn't break up with Anya, didn't even say that he could never marry her. He just said that if it's a mistake, it's for good, and he couldn't marry her. He couldn't go through with the wedding right then.

As for the other Scoobies, they saw how wrecked he was. They know better than to attack anyone for a decision of the heart; they've had to make enough difficult ones themselves.

I bought the whole thing - except for the failure to mention Giles, which was, indeed, inexcusable. Angel and Cordy were presumably impossible because of the network issue, and, well, Cordy is an ex-girlfriend (frequently left off the invite list), and Xander has always disliked Angel. So I had no problem with that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ditto. Nicely said. -- Sophist, 12:11:16 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, but..(adding nuance here) -- Caroline, 13:40:53 03/07/02 Thu

It would have been nice to have a little more ambivalence because we really haven't seen any since the song in OMWF, which ended on a really positive note anyway. While I was writing my original post, it was a bit of a stretch to find examples since OMWF of doubts on Xander's part, which was why I felt that some of manwitch's comments were justified. I'm spoiler-free so the only inklings I had for this was the usual stuff about ME ensuring the maximum pain for everyone. But yes, when you look at the events before OMWF, I completely agree with you.

[> [> [> [> [> [> dream, that was beautiful! -- anom, 23:34:11 03/07/02 Thu

"Imagine, if you will, that you had a chance to be, to feel in the place of, a murderer. And, instead of the feelings being something horrible and new, the feelings were....familiar. The thing you are and the thing you hate turn out to be shockingly similar, not the opposites you imagined."

And, I'd say, the more you try to deny this to yourself, the more you become what you most hate & fear. It's only when you face & accept it--which is never easy--that you can be free to choose a different path. In Xander's case, he can't see that there are other ways he can keep his future from being like the one he saw than by not marrying Anya.

BTW, dream & so many others, I agree about Giles. There could at least have been a line or 2 about why he wasn't there.

[> [> [> [> Re: More on Xander, Theseus, the Minotaur and the labyrinth (spoilers) -- Edward, 17:39:09 03/07/02 Thu

I haven't posted anything up to now on these two episodes, because I frankly had to sit back and let time relax me, as both episodes this week triggered a sense of downright anger in me. I have been having a really hard time trying to put my finger on why, but Sleep Tight and Hell's Bells are two episodes that I don't ever want to see again.

Since I was already extremely angry from Sleep Tight, it may have predisposed me to feel this way towards Hells Bells.

I also felt that I was not really watching Buffy but some other show. I felt the episode was deliberately and awkwardly manipulative emotionally. I know that ME had to be looking for a reaction of Oh My God, No Xander, don't let them beat you, but I found I didn't care about Xander and Anya at all, and that made me angry, because I do care about them.

I know it's not necessarily fair, but I frankly felt it played like a cheap sweeps stunt, something like what "Who's the Boss" did time and time again.

(I never cared for that show, but my father watched it religiously. He will not watch reruns because of the fact that after all was said and done they never did actually end up together, even when the show ended. The producers said that they felt that it would hurt syndication, I know they didn't expect Dad's reaction.)

The one exception that I must note was the Buffy/Spike scene which I thought was played out perfectly.

Incidentally, I don't believe that Anya will return to her vengence days. I think she knows that at least in part, it was her vengence days that brought this about. I know that she Loves Xander, and although she was deeply hurt by this, she knows that he loves her. His problem isn't with her but with himself. I think the expression on her face is her about to blast her x-boss for suggesting it.

[> [> [> [> [> Wow -- JBone, 21:41:28 03/07/02 Thu

I don't think that I have ever heard of anyone who refused to watch "Who's The Boss" reruns because of the way the series ended before. This is a vast new concept that I need to take a moment to appreciate. Wow.

[> minotaur and labyrinths -- purplegrrl, 14:33:10 03/06/02 Wed

I've been reading Joseph Campbell's "Primitive Mythology" lately. One of the recurring symbols in many cultures that he talks about is the labyrinth. According to Campbell, the labyrinth is often a test that must be passed before the seeker can move on to their desired location. A number of primitive cultures used the symbol of the labyrinth as a passage from life to death. The person had to learn the secret of the labyrinth while they were alive (by performing various rituals, secret knowledge passed down by the elders, etc.) before they could navigate the labyrinth. Successfully navigating the labyrinth meant the person would be allowed into that culture's version of "heaven." If the person failed to complete the labyrinth, they were doomed to wander for eternity.

With season 6's theme of "grow up," it's interesting that the symbol of the labyrinth should crop up -- if rather obliquely with the mention of the minotaur. Part of any successful primitve culture was for each person to learn their place in the society and to be a contributing member. One of the most important rituals was the coming of age ritual(s). Boys and girls of a certain age were taught what was expected of them as an adult member of the society.

In the Buffyverse we have a collection of young adults who are struggling to understand and come to grips with the passage into adult society. All of them have issues they must deal with, baggage they must either ditch or lock in the attic, and roles they must assume.
Buffy -- relationships with men (is this due to absent father, even when Hank was in the picture?)
Xander -- troubled, abusive childhood
Willow -- addiction to dark magic
Anya -- still willing to fall back on her vengenc-demon ways, despite her seeming integration as a human
Spike -- who does he want to be: William, Spike, or the "Big Bad?"
Dawn -- tries to be like big sister and friends instead of truly being her own person

Tara seems to be the only one who can be considered a fully functional adult. Despite the fact that she thought she was a demon (or part demon) for the first twenty years of her life, she managed to get over it with the love and support of Willow and the Scooby Gang, including Spike.

Perhaps the reason why these young adults are floundering so badly on their passage into adult society is that they have no teachers/mentors to give them the knowledge they require: Buffy and Dawn have lost their real and surrogate parents. Willow's parents are completely uninvolved in her life. Xander's parents are abusive, self-involved, and their picture appears in the dictionary next to dysfunctional. Spike was and is an outsider who ignores the rules. Anya has no parents and, even after 3 or 4 years, doesn't understand what being human is all about.

Another point on labyrinths:
A labyrinth can also be seen as part of the hero's journey -- such as the one that Buffy in on. It represents the spiraling down into the dark place, the otherworld. Only with the correct knowledge does the hero know how to get out the other side of the labyrinth. This metaphor is seen in the Greek myth of the Minotaur: The hero (Perseus?) is to be sent into the labyrinth to be eaten by the monster, the Minotaur. However, the king's daughter has taken a liking to him and doesn't want him to die. So she gives the hero a spool of thread that allows him to navigate the labyrinth. The hero eventually kills the Minotaur and escapes the labyrinth aided by the spool of thread. Here the secret knowledge is represented by the thread given to the seeker by someone acting as a mentor/teacher.

Hope this helps.

[> [> Re: minotaur and labyrinths -- leslie, 16:15:16 03/06/02 Wed

It's Theseus who challenges the Minotaur. (Perseus's issues might also be relevant here, though, since he's the one who slays Medusa, who turns people to stone, as Buffy has been feeling all season.) But anyway, Theseus only succeeds in his task because he is helped by Ariadne, the daughter of the king who has sent Theseus into the labyrinth, and although Theseus takes her with him when he flees, he abandons her on an island on his way home, where she either hangs herself or becomes the wife of Dionysus.

While I'm on the subject, may I highly, highly, highly recommend _The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony_ (Yikes! Not That Harmony!) by Roberto Colasso. Simply the most brilliant book on classical mythology I have ever read. Very poetic, but also the kind of writing that has you suddenly making one connection after another, and suddenly all these things that you never even thought about in one breath are revealed to be lucidly related.

[> [> [> Re: minotaur and labyrinths -- Jon, 17:12:11 03/06/02 Wed

Thanks for the reading list tip - I was just thinking I needed to brush up on my mythology (and thinking I'd need to go get the big book by Edith Hamilton - it's nice to have an alternative).

Thanks to everyone who's contributing to fleshing out the Minotaur. Maybe it won't end up seeming too significant when all is said and done, but I'm learning from it anyway.

It did occur to me that if, as Caroline points out, it took an "amazing technical feat" involving a hollow cow for Pasiphae to mate with the white bull, it probably also took some interesting technology to birth the minotaur...a C-Section?

Okay, probably pulling way too many strings together there, but it does strike me that BtVS hasn't dealt with a pregnancy - complicated or otherwise. Has it? Might it be about time? Of course it's been very rightly pointed out that all the characters have their own self-birthing processes going on right now, too, and that's probably the thing to watch.


[> [> [> Re: minotaur and labyrinths -- Ixchel, 19:40:43 03/06/02 Wed

leslie, I remember loving The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony. I think you've inspired me to read it again (it's been awhile). A truly excellent book.


[> I Just love it when a season gets peiced together! -- Goji3, 17:45:53 03/06/02 Wed

We've been bitching for so long, now things are starting to make more and more sense, threads are starting (at least) to come together, it's beautiful!

I too found the Minotaur reference rather odd at first, and your disection of it, and it's implications, seem (for now at least) to be dead on.

Just on a side note, not all labirynths are bad, some, i belive celtic, are used for a form of meditation and have a singe path guiding them...but I doubt that applies for the Jossverse.

And just to help tie it back to the Demon in As You Were, when Sam went to check the Big Nasty Demon for eggs, she performed a C-Section.

I can't wait to see how this all plays out!
(Great Post, by the way)

[> [> Re: I Just love it when a season gets peiced together! -- Eric, 18:58:41 03/06/02 Wed

How about this:

Buffy is in the Labyrinth and always will be. There is no out of the maze if you are the slayer. You can't get out--maybe you can see light at the end of a tunnel and thats all you need--other people's hope in order to have a reason to go on.
Xander (and also Willow) are the string--in this case, however, they are not the string that leads her out in the end, but her ties to the outside world. She'll never use the string to escape her destiny, but it helps to know it is there. Xander knows (or senses), like Spike, that the Slayer has survived this long only because she ties to the world. He is again, symbolically, at the edge of the sandbox that Buffy won't come out of. He knows his role finally, and that is to be with the Slayer until the end. He is the heart. Willow as well could no more leave and take the spirit with her and away from the Slayer, than the Xander could the heart.
In another way--its a maze for all three of them. Willow and Xander will never leave Sunnydale as long as Buffy is still alive and slaying--and I think they'd follow her if she left. Xander knows his destiny now. He chose it after hestitating at first before killing the demon in HB. He too is going into the Labyrinth after the Minotaur on one level as well as being Buffy's tie to the world outside on another level altogether.

The one and only thing that would ring true from the (mostly) false visions is that Xander would always help Buffy, no matter the cost. Just like any X-man or other superhero teammember (or slayerette)would do. His loyalty is unassailable and would make a significant other always come second. Thats another maze he is trapped in and also not unlike being trapped in the basement--its just now that he realizes his maze (his loyalty and devotion to his friends and a fight against evil that will almost unquestionably end in his death or major injury)is not necessarily a bad thing, its just what is. But he won't take Anya into that maze with him.

[> We saw Xander's labyrinth in Restless. -- Sophist, 21:24:24 03/06/02 Wed

Every route led back to his bedroom, i.e., his abusive family. "That's not the way out." Xander hasn't found the thread yet.

No one has mentioned yet the end of the story of Theseus and the minotaur. Theseus had volunteered to go to Crete in order to end the sacrifices extorted from Athens. He promised his father that if he was successful, he would change the black sails on the ships to white. In the joy of his return, Theseus forgot to change the sails. His father, seeing the ships return with black sails, killed himself by jumping into the sea.

Does this tie in some way that I can't now see?

[> More Bull: When a cow gives birth to a lion who turns back into a cow...(Spoilers) -- mereh2o, 22:18:50 03/06/02 Wed

I'm also a new poster here, and I think there is another mythological bull reference to Buffy at work here, but one that doesn't involve a minotaur.

I believe that Buffy is a lion (predator) in cow's (prey) clothing-- and I'm not talking about all of the leather that she wears.

I’m horrible at interpreting these things, so I’ll just list my observations and hope someone can help me suss it out :)

(paraphrasing from a cheap mythology guide)

Hathor, the "Sacred Cow", the daughter of the Sun god Ra, was goddess of the sky and of love, mirth, and beauty. She was a goddess of fertility as well as a goddess of the dead.

Hathor took on an uncharacteristically destructive aspect in the legend of the Eye of Ra.
Convinced that humanity had turned against him, Ra cast a terrible glance upon his daughter Hathor, bringing forth the darker facets of her nature: terror, uncontrollable rage, and vengeance. Upon Ra’s bidding, Hathor assumed the form of Sekhmet, the lioness, and descended into Upper and Lower Egypt to slay those who had scorned and disobeyed him. All whom she saw she slew, rejoicing in slaughter and the taste of blood.

Ra changed his mind when he was confronted with the scale of destruction of Sekhmet’s bloodthirst. Unable to calm his daughter with reason, Ra had to resort to deception to stop her rage. He had beer which had been colored red, spread in a field. Sekhmet drank the beer eagerly, mistaking it for the blood of the slain, until she became so inebriated she could no longer kill.

Once appeased by these intoxicants, she reverted to her more benevolent form of Hathor.

How does this apply to Buffy?

Buffy, in the past, has been associated with cats and lions. The two most obvious examples of this I can think of are her her mountain-lion guide in Intervention and the lion/panther shirt she wore in Gone ( Time is what turns kittens into cats, and perhaps the lion represents what Dracula in BvD and Tara in Restless have hinted that Buffy will become.

It wasn’t until her "bull" talk in HB that I began to realized that cows were prominent in Gone, too:
Doris’ mug in Gone.
Willow’s PJ’s in Gone.
The tablet with Hathor, in cow form, under the counter of the Magic Box in Gone. (

And of course those instances in which the "cow" is directly associated with Buffy herself:
Her Doublemeat uniform: the hearts on the pockets (goddess of love) and "My hat has a cow on it." (from AYW)
In Hell’s Bells, the Bison Head wearing the bride veil, Buffy’s "bull" charade.
Buffy’s fib about the "minitor" having to leave to perform an emergency C-section.

As the Slayer, Buffy exhibits many aspects of Hathor—she is full of love, mirth and beauty. It is the darker side of her nature, the "Sekhmet" or lioness within her that she fears, and which she will have to confront this season.

Buffy’s "Sekhmet" side may have been most evident in "Gone"—an episode in which Hathor appeared behind the glass in the Magic Box, yet the Mountain Lion (on Buffy’s shirt) was set loose. Free from the rules from society and totally controlled by her id, Buffy took pleasure in taunting people (cattle) and exacting revenge on those who had "wronged" her (Doris the Social Worker). Yet Buffy was easily distracted for several hours after stopping by Spike’s crypt…

In AYW, Buffy walked away from her job at DmP and has ditched her "Hathor" get up— her DmP uniform, with the cow hat and the hearts on her shirt. In HB, she’s still under the watchful eye of the cowhead, but she it seems as though she’s expecting a lion cub any day now.

I think this is where the pregnancy issue comes in; Buffy isn’t pregnant in the physical sense, but she’s becoming pregnant or filled with all of her bottled up emotions: Her pent up anger, guilt, fear, frustration, etc. Perhaps this is what the eggs represent as well?

In Normal Again, her violent side will be temporarily freed by the poison from a demon and I fear this may be just the beginning of a series of outbursts. Since she still has yet to find an outlet for these flooded emotions, will her problems will continue until the dam bursts and "Sekhmet" is (prematurely?) released?

How does Spike fit into this?

Spike is the King of Cups. (FfL)
Spike offers Buffy his flask. (Crush)
Spike brings beer. (AYW)
Buffy is looking for a refill. (DT)
Buffy and Spike get drunk. (LS)

"They're both drunk with it. Hot, pressing against each other. They kiss again."— Shooting Script, Wrecked

Spike is "the Doctor"

Is Spike going to be the one who triggers the transformation (performs the C-Section?) or who calms "Sekhmet" down by getting her "drunk"?

This year is a big year for vengeance, and "Sekhmet" herself was an agent of revenge, sent by the god to punish mortals. Perhaps Buffy, as an incarnation of the first slayer (Sekhmet) will be sent to punish the Scoobies for tampering with forces beyond their control?

My train of thought is not very linear, I’m afraid, so I hope you were able to make sense out of my ramblings :)


[> [> hm. brain squish. need process time! ;-) -- The Second Evil, 22:26:07 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> Guardian of the flock -- mama-san, 07:46:59 03/07/02 Thu

I like cats better than dogs, but this analogy sort of forced itself into my mind. A Slayer is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a sacrificial lamb with fangs. The question is, does she think of herself as a wolf incognito, or as a sheep with the power to defend the flock? I believe there are some breeds of dog that protect sheep, not by driving them out of danger as a Border Collie might, but by behaving almost as the sheep do, until a predator threatens the flock.

A herding dog doesn't look like a sheep; a guardian dog may be white and woolly. I've heard that guardian breeds seem to believe they *are* sheep, except when it comes to fighting off wolves. They aren't really sheep, of course; they're still dogs, close kin to wolves, and they eat meat, not grass. But they're less likely to turn on the flock than a herding dog, who after all is managing the flock by controlled predatory behaviors, by threatening postures and pursuit.

Faith figured out that she was a wolf and turned on the flock. Buffy loves what happens when a predator mistakes her for a helpless lamb, but she's uncomfortable with the idea that she's not helpless *because* she's really a kind of wolf. And she's more closely entwined with her flock than any other Slayer we've heard of.

Hmm... I think being a cat would be easier.


"He who made kittens/put snakes in the grass" -- do snakes not come into this animal discussion?

[> [> Spoiler (not from promo) for Almost Normal in the post above ("More Bull:..") -- Dyna, 12:15:30 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> Re: More Bull: When a cow gives birth to a lion who turns back into a cow...(Spoilers) -- manwitch, 06:48:33 03/08/02 Fri

My favorite stuffed animal of Buffy's has always been the cow, which I believe we first see in Season 2.

I always preferred the cow to Mr. Gordo.

[> [> [> I thought Mr. Gordo was a pig? -- Dyna, 15:33:33 03/08/02 Fri

[> Good catch and welcome here -- Etrangere, 05:53:07 03/07/02 Thu

Damn, i think you're right on it.
Xander wandering in Restless without ever going nowhere is certainly a very good labyrinthus image. Question is, is Anya his Ariadne ? Ariadne being an ancient vegetation & fertility goddess (as the wife of Dyionisus) she goes well with the assets of Anya (money & sex are both fertility symboles)
Why is the path unclear
When we know home is near?

Definitly right on.

More on cows, in Intervention :
BUFFY: Training. Slaying. All of it. It's just ... I mean ... I can beat up the demons until the cows come home. And then I can beat up the cows ... but I'm not sure I like what it's doing to me.

So we got pregnancy images a plenty, cows, and eggs, and glowing. I don't think any kind of real pregnancy is to be expected, so what kind of metaphorical birth are we supposed to expect ?

You know, between cats and vamp puppies and cows, this is getting a real zoo here :)
From Family :

Willow Voiceover: Tell me a story.
Buffy Voiceover: Okay. Once upon a time, there was, um ... a kitty. She was very little, and she was all alone, and nobody wanted her.
Willow Voiceover: This is a very upsetting story.
Buffy Voiceover: Oh, oh, but it gets better.
The kitten runs offscreen. Cut to a shot of her trying to crawl under a bed.

Buffy Voiceover: 'Cause one day the kitty was running around in the street and a man came, and swooped her up...

A pair of hands comes into the shot and swoops up the kitten.

Tara: And took her to the pound.

We see Tara sitting on the end of Willow's bed lifting the kitten into her lap. Willow is in the bed, under the covers.

Tara: And at the pound there were lots of other kitties, and there were puppies, and some ferrets...
Willow: (smiling) Were there dolphins?
Tara: (handing kitten to Willow) Yes. Many dolphins at the pound.
Willow: Or was there a camel?
Tara: (thinks) There was the front of a camel. A half camel. (Smiles)
Willow: (cuddling kitten) Did the kitty get chosen by some nice people?
Tara: Well, now you ruined the ending.

Just wanted to add those quotes to the deal :)

[> [> Anya and Ariadne -- Anne, 09:24:03 03/07/02 Thu

Uh-oh, if she is Ariadne, watch out. She helped Theseus out of the maze, and then got dumped by him on the way back to Athens. There are a couple of different stories about exactly what happened -- according to one, he deliberately abandoned her on an island while she was sleeping; in another, he sets her ashore on an island when she gets seasick, is blown offshore by a strong wind, and by the time he gets back she's dead.

[> [> [> yeah, well there is alos the one... -- Etrangere, 09:45:37 03/07/02 Thu

where it's Dyonisus who ordered Theseus to let her in the island so he could get her as his wife. So it's not too bad.
Okay, Theseus was a jerk with his women, he's known for it. ut Ariadne has a better lot than Phedre at least :)

[> [> [> [> Dyonisus was there -- yuri, 21:26:07 03/08/02 Fri

I'd buy Anya as Ariadne - she could be the link keeping Xander sane as he explores and accepts his "minotaur" side. And, though it would be backwards since Xander's not out of the maze yet, it makes sense that Dyonisus would be represented by D'Hoffryn and that other demon like him, since one pursuaded Xander to leave Anya, and the other was ready and waiting to snatch her up when she was abandoned and vulnerable.

[> [> [> Perhaps Ariadne has not appeared? -- Caroline, 13:23:10 03/08/02 Fri

I would speculate that Xander's Ariadne has not yet appeared. Theseus must defeat the minotaur but he can't do it because the labyrinth is so confusing etc. Ariadne, by giving him the string, is giving him a sense of direction and purpose, such that he can achieve the goal. Xander contains aspects of both the minotaur and Theseus but the woman who can help him slay his minotaur and become the person he wants to be has not yet arrived. That could be Anya in the future. She has finally learnt what love is but will she learn to really know Xander?

[> You people don't disappoint! -- Jon, 12:26:22 03/07/02 Thu

Thanks for the warm welcome and super-thanks for drawing so many fascinating lines between things. Now I'm off to my pasture to ruminate on all this for a spell.


[> Re: C-Section/Minister/Doctor/Minotaur (Spoilers for AYW, HB & preview for next week)) -- Age, 07:35:13 03/08/02 Fri

After having read the excellent postings of this thread, I only have a couple of minor things to add.

While it is not the same, the metaphor of the dark wood, part of season five and season six (reaffirmed in 'Bargaining,') is similar to a labyrinth in which one can become lost. This would broaden the image of the labyrinth to all the Scoobies.

Also, to broaden the bull image to eastern tradition, there is a set of pictures with commentary verse in the zen buddhist tradition which focuses on the mind as an ox that needs to be herded. The Oxherding Pictures detail the process of going to the source of oneself in the zen tradition.

The first verse, as quoted in 'The Three Pillars of Zen' is the following:

Desolate through forests and fearful in jungles,
he is seeking an Ox which he does not find.
Up and down dark, nameless, wide-flowing rivers,
in deep mountain thickets he treads many bypaths.
Bone-tired, heart-weary, he carries on his search
for this something which he cannot find.
At evening he hears cicadas chirping in the trees.

While it is not the same as the Minotaur myth, the ox image in the zen tradition does speak both to the idea of giving birth in the sense of releasing oneself from chains of thinking through effort and to the radical innocence that was being spoken about in another thread.

While I do seem to harper on buddhism alot, I just thought this would help the discussion.


Any other frustrated Dawn/Spike 'shippers. . .future, friend, or protector? SPOILERS for season 6 -- Simplicity, 12:44:21 03/06/02 Wed

Hello everyone! It's been a while since I've been on the board. Okay, so this is sort of a rant. Am I the only one suffering from D/S withdrawal? I love these two characters together, they seem to have such chemistry. I just wish ME would remember that.

Also. . .it doesn't make sense. Spike was supposedly all over Dawn this past summer. He was protecting her from potential harm but now. . .he's luring Buffy out of the house so they can have some sexcapades and leaving Dawn by herself? He doesn't seem to care that she's lonely.

Any other thoughts on this?

[> Re: Any other frustrated Dawn/Spike 'shippers? -- Herself, 12:59:23 03/06/02 Wed

No particular thought except that yeah, I agree, I'm confused by this. We fans seem to have a different viewpoint on Spike and Dawn than the writers do. I thought he was pretty devoted to and interested in her and vice versa, and they've just dropped that like it never was.

It affects my view of Spike's characterization more than Dawn's--it just didn't seem right to me that he'd have so lost interest in her. But his depiction has been all over the map in the last few eps, very confusing and disappointing.

[> [> Re: Any other frustrated Dawn/Spike 'shippers? Why does this suprise you? -- Dochawk, 17:44:54 03/06/02 Wed

First off, I think JM is a wonderful actor, truly coming into his own and has chemistry for all of the actors

That being said, why does it suprise you that Spike no longre seems to care about Dawn? Spike had 2 reasons to care about Dawn, 1) his sense of loyalty to the Slayer, the last thing Buffy asked of Spike before she died was to care for Dawn, if something happened to her. Spike definitely has some loyalty, but this burden disappears when Buffy is resurected; 2, Dawn is one way to Buffy's heart and caring for her gave him an in with Buffy, but once Spike got Buffy's body he no longer needs Dawn. I agree, many fans seem to have a different opinion of Spike than the writers. They keep telling us that Spike is an agent of chaos, evil and many fans just keep not wanting to believe it, even though all of these complaints the last two weeks are perfectly in characterization of the evil vampire who has a chip in his head.

[> [> [> Re: Any other frustrated Dawn/Spike 'shippers? Why does this suprise you? -- juliaabra, 01:30:51 03/07/02 Thu

yeah doc, but also when i've read stuff and heard stuff from the writers, most notably drew z greenberg who was interviewed on the succubus club, they all say that if a storyline has been initiated, we, as viewers, should assume that it continues even off screen. therefore, any spike/dawn friendship that happened has presumably continued, it just hasn't had the screen time that we might like to see.

and perhaps i'm reading way too much in, but i thought that when dawn went to hang out with spike in his crypt, it was pleasing for both of them. it seemed that he had developed real feeling for dawn separate from his feelings for buffy.

[> Yes, many. (spoilers, Hells Bells) -- Traveler, 13:17:07 03/06/02 Wed

Many people have commented on how Spike went from caring for and protecting Dawn to almost totally ignoring her. Hells Bells continues this trend. Dawn was obviously happy to see Spike, but he didn't have much to say to her, prefering to use her as a messanger to tell Buffy about his new "girlfriend." What's up with that? Can't he still care for Dawn even though he and Buffy have had a messy relationship?

[> [> Re: Yes, many. (spoilers, Hells Bells) -- The Hanged Man, 16:08:42 03/06/02 Wed

Many many love Dawnie and Spike's friendship. And I believe it's genuine.

I think that the writers sometimes forget that we aren't as "in touch" with the characters as they are. I think they see the character interactions as continuous, not episodic like we do.

As fans we need the characters to constantly be reaffirming their friendships and relationships.
We get 44 minutes of their lives, 22 weeks a year. That's only 968 minutes a year! So we expect all the characters to be defined during that time.

That leaves a very unfortunate 524,632 minutes of their lives that we just don't see.

Since we're forced to trust that the writers show us the big, character and relationship changing moments, then we have to take it for granted that if Spike and Dawn's friendship has collapsed then they are going to signal us of that. Otherwise, we're forced into believing that they're interacting during the other 524,632 minutes.

The Spike/Dawn/She's my date interaction seemed brusque, but playful. We have to assume that Dawn sees Spike often enough that they don't have to be all up in each other's big smiles to maintain their friendship. Maybe their friendship is just passed that stage of formality. After all, she's like a kid sister to him and, frankly, he's a corpse. You just don't stand on formalities when you're having a friendship with a corpse.

The Spike/Dawn/my date interaction to me seemed reminiscent of the beautiful ego face-off they had in Blood Ties where they were challenging each other about who was really the baddest. .

Their chemistry seemed intact.

[> [> [> Re: Yes, many. (spoilers, Hells Bells) -- leslie, 10:03:21 03/07/02 Thu

Why does everyone assume that it is Spike who has "dropped" Dawn? The whole trend of Dawn's character has been towards wanting to get away from being overprotected, and protection is Spike's middle name in their friendship. Granted, he was the only one she seemed willing to be protected *by*, but as she seems to be pulling away into her own little group of JD friends, I would think she would want to play down her friendship with someone who may be badder and more mature than any of her high school pals, but also very clearly regards her as a cute kid. I mean, does she want her buds hearing her called "Little Bit" every fifteen seconds?

[> [> [> You did your research! -- pagangodess, 12:05:33 03/07/02 Thu

I agree with what you are saying, that the relationships go on off screen, and we are to assume that they are same as before. However, as I've mentioned before, I also think that Spike has respectfuly stepped aside, since Buffy came back to take back her role of protector (not that she's been doing a great job of it).

Poor Little Bit.

Will Tara and Willow lead the way? (spoilers, speculation) -- Traveler, 13:11:22 03/06/02 Wed

A lot of people have mentioned the various "alternative" relationships that have occured in BtVS. Recently, we have seen three.

Xander/Anya (normal guy/ex vengance demon)
Tara/Willow (lesbians)
Buffy/Spike (Vampire Slayer/"Evil" Vampire)

Each relationship is explored and shown to be (at least potentially) healthy. Then, Tara and Willow break up, but as a result Willow begins to get her magic addiction under control. However, as they are in the process of breaking up, Buffy starts "dating" Spike. After some time, they break up, and Buffy starts to get her self esteem back. However, the episode after they break up, it's time for Anya and Xander's wedding, which fails miserably. Presumably, they are also breaking up now. However, now Tara and Willow look like they might get back together again. Anybody else noticing a pattern here? There seems to be a continuous cycle; one relationship forms while another fails. So, will the cycle that Willow and Tara began continue? Will we see Xander and Anya defeat their inner demons and get back together. And after them, perhaps Buffy and Spike? Only time will show if this trend has been a red herring or a compass for the progression of season six. What do you guys think?

[> Re: Will Tara and Willow lead the way? (spoilers, speculation) -- neaux, 13:36:54 03/06/02 Wed

your focus is on relationships.. is your idea of relationships involving just dating/sex?

I ask these questions because it is notable that you left out Dawn. Buffy/Dawn's relationship. which is alternative in the sense its Sister/Sister and Mother/Daughter

or do you view Dawn as an outside force?

[> [> My focus was on recent dating trends in BtVS. -- Traveler, 19:45:12 03/06/02 Wed

[> Re: Will Tara and Willow lead the way? (spoilers, speculation) -- Terrapin, 15:17:10 03/06/02 Wed

Speaking of Willow and Tara, did anybody else notice the during the scene with Anya, Willow, and Tara, (when w/t are helping to dress Anya) the look Tara gives. She gives a look of sadness and maybe uncertainty when Anya is practicing her vows about her heart and how she hopes Xander will take of it and she will take care of his. But then she returns to laughing/flirting with Willow.

I just thought I'd mention it.

[> [> Re: Will Tara and Willow lead the way? (spoilers, speculation) -- Wiccagrrl, 16:32:32 03/06/02 Wed

Hey, I haven't posted here in a while, but I've been doing some lurking lately, thought I'd chime in on this.

First, the look of sadness- the way I read that scene, W/T were listening to the words and also thinking about their relationship. Anya's words at that point were about protecting her heart/trust in their relationship, and I think maybe Tara was thinking about the recent troubles she and Willow have been having. Perhaps indicating that while, yes, they are clearly on the road to reuniting, they have some things to work out and rebuild, and that while Tara clearly loves Willow she still has (and will probably have for a while) some doubts and hesitation about jumping back into their relationship.

As to the original question, I have no idea if all three couples will end up back together. When we saw a similar situation in Lover's Walk with all three main couples going through relationship issues at the same time, all three had differing results (B/A got back together only to do the on again/off again thing before finally calling it quits. C/X never did get back together after that, W/O seemingly worked through the issues and stayed together for another year, seemingly happily, before other (werewolf and Veruca) issues finally led to a split.)

Anyway, I do see W/T working things out. B/S? I don't see it happening. X/A, I really hope they do, but I'm doubtful.

[> [> [> Re: Will Tara and Willow lead the way? (spoilers, speculation) -- Terrapin, 18:52:13 03/06/02 Wed

Good points in your first paragraph. I'm still thinking, after Anya's pressure in wanting Willow to do a spell to get them out of the house,(OAFA) that Willow will be faced with a difficult situation whether or not to use magic to save herself and or friends. Buf that's just my speculation.

[> [> [> [> Re: Will Tara and Willow lead the way? (spoilers, speculation) -- Wiccagrrl, 23:00:01 03/06/02 Wed

We probably haven't seen the last of Willow's addiction storyline. I actually think the worst is behind her. And I think that, for the most part, Tara will end up taking over as Scooby witch. So, if she were faced with a situation where she'd be really tempted to use magic, it would probably be to save Tara (who for some reason was in a position where she *couldn't* use her magic to save herself.)

Also, an interesting situation has been set up with the info we got from O&FA- magic won't help them in dealing with a vengeance demon, or breaking the vengeance demon's wish/spell. So if Anya does go after Xander or the SG as a whole, magic's not gonna help them out anyway.

Why is it called Faith, Hope, and Mr. Trick? -- Rochefrigibit, 13:21:10 03/06/02 Wed

What's the hope part? I don't remember hope in that episode. What's the meaning of that title? I've always wondered.

[> Because... -- grifter, 13:23:14 03/06/02 Wed

...the guy Buffy has a crush on is called so-and-so Hope.

[> [> Re: Because... -- Rattletrap, 13:31:42 03/06/02 Wed

Scott Hope

There is also a somewhat clever play off of a Bible verse that says everything passes away except "faith, hope, and love." I think this is just a simple play on words with no further symbolism intended, or if there is I've never been able to figure it out.

[> [> [> Re: Because... -- Rufus, 16:35:52 03/06/02 Wed

Faith (Faith the slayer), Hope (Scott Hope), and Trick (the nasty but enterprising vampire)......all these characters have an impact on Buffys life in season three. I always thought it was "faith, hope, and charity"...I learn something everyday.

[> [> [> [> Quick Symbolic Look..Spoilers for FHT and seasons 2,3 to finale. -- Age, 18:43:18 03/06/02 Wed

Buffy is tricking herself(Mr Trick in Kakistos's(Buffy's guilt) employ) into believing that she can resume her life and have some hope(Scott Hope) of having a romantic relationship and a normal life without dealing with the guilt of sending Angel to hell. The ep through light and dark scenes and the motif of consuming food(the hamburger joint, the picnic etc and the Martha Stewart lifestyle allusion, ie putting on a mask) portrays this guilt eating away at Buffy on a subconscious level and its eventual rise from the subconscious(from her dreams) to waking state and its being acknowledged and dealt with.

The three figures that follow Buffy in from LA(not literally from there, but from out of town) represent that which Buffy either got back or was running away from in LA. She got a little faith(Faith) back in herself, but marginalized those sexual and aggressive tendencies into the Faith character due to the shame she felt from taking on all the blame for Angel's becoming Angelus again. The splitting of Buffy into marginalized slayer and human being can be seen in two ways: either as the damage done by a patriarchal thought structure , ie Angelus as the patriarchal boy who venges himself on the woman for tricking him into having feelings for her and therefore trying to get power over him; or as the struggle for dominance between the slayer and the human being, with the human being coming out on top: the ascension.

Trickery seems to be part of the episode in a couple of ways: Buffy is tricking herself into believing that she can get back her normal life without dealing with her feelings; while Giles tricks her into opening up to her guilt by insisting that he needs info about the spell. In a wider sense the Martha Stewart allusion and the happy burger mascot, both food/consumption images, represent the trickery of being able to lead a normal existence without dealing with the darker aspects of our nature: we take on a lifestyle in which we involve ourselves with only the 'good' thing as is Martha Stewart's motto(It's a Good Thing). But these personas simply lead to a form of death in life cut off from our emotional core as symbolized by the killing of the Happy Burger employee by Mr Trick representing this tendency to trick ourselves into having a happy dead life. Just as the employee is eaten by Mr Trick, Buffy is being eaten away by her guilt, and her own desire not to deal with it, her desire to trick herself, is what's facilitating this(this is why Trick works for Kakistos.)

Buffy has no Hope of resuming any kind of life unless she deals with her guilt first. Her fledgling Faith in herself will be killed off(Kakistos is after Faith, and I think it is Faith who finally stakes him) if she doesn't acknowledge her feelings of loss and guilt for Angel. But her Trick-ery is in the way. Hence the title of the ep, Faith(she needs this first before there can be any) Hope and Trick(her trickery) is blocking both.(This idea of trick blocking what she wants is symbolized by the Happy Burger scene following the picnic scene(if my memory is correct.) It comes right after it to show what is blocking Buffy's chance of gaining her life back.)

The ep itself is psychologically sound. In the previous ep the Scoobies got out their feelings. This allowed Buffy to relax somewhat. But she's still out of bounds, wanting to get back in the thick of things, but that which she brought back from being way out of bounds emerges as she begins to relax, wanting to be in the centre of things too.

The ep begins at midday, in the middle of the day, in the thick of things. It is a time when the demons of the night are long forgotten from the previous day and way too far off to be considered, ie it is a time of day that perfectly symbolizes what Buffy wants(to be in the thick of things, have her life back) and not have to deal with her inner demon. The Scoobies move out of bounds, suggesting that Buffy will not be able to have her old life back exactly(this is the senior year and eventually all the students will follow Buffy out of bounds as they graduate and fight the mayor for their right to have a chance to become adults and live their own lives); and in splitting up in the teaser they suggest the split in Buffy that will manifest as Faith. The alternation of light and dark scenes in the ep then go on to suggest this light/dark split.


[> [> [> [> Actually, biblically, charity=love. -- A8, 19:15:22 03/06/02 Wed

Charity (caritas...hmmm wasn't that the name of Lorne's club) means Christian love (i.e. , the benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity) and is often used interchangeably in different versions of Christian Bibles. The passage from which the "faith, hope and charity" phrase is most well known is Paul's letter to the Corinthians on the subject of love (or charity in some versions).

Although I'm not christian, I believe that passage to be one of the more simply beautiful sentiments of the book. My favorite interpretation of the passage is Joni Mitchell's musical adaptation from the "Wild Things Run Fast" album. Her lyrical paraphrase from the song simply titled "Love":

Although I speak in tongues of men and angels
I'm just sounding brass and tinkling cymbals without love
Love suffers long, love is kind
Enduring all things hoping all things
Love has no evil in mind

If I had the gift of prophecy and all knowledge
And the faith to move the mountains
Even if I understood all of the mysteries
If I didn't have love, I'd be nothing

Love never looks for love
Love's not puffed up or envious or touchy
Because it rejoices in the truth, not in iniquity
Love sees like a child sees

As a child I spoke as a child
I thought and I understood as a child
But when I became a woman, I put away childish things
And began to see through a glass darkly

Where as a child I saw it face to face
Now I only know it in part
Fractions in me of faith and hope and love
And of these great three--Love's the greatest beauty

Hope that was helpful.


Well, THAT was depressing... (the wedding episode) -- RichardX1, 17:06:38 03/06/02 Wed

I know it doesn't all end all "hugs and puppies", but what kind of a world is it when there are NO happy endings? Even reality has a better average than that.

Sometimes I just wonder if it would be better for the Slayerverse if Buffy hadn't defeated Angel in "Becoming".

[> Re: Well, THAT was depressing... (the wedding episode) -- Dichotomy, 17:24:01 03/06/02 Wed

Chin up, man! (patting your shoulder in a consoling manner) The season's not over yet; I suspect ME will treat us to a few more ups with all the downs. Dawn and the teenage demon looked promising (He didn't seem like just a horny adolescent, although he had horns). What about Willow and Tara's lingering looks and shy smiles? And somehow I don't think Xander and Anya are completely over, although their path to reconciliation will no doubt be bumpy (or bumpy-faced if Anya takes that offer).

Maybe if we do finally get a happy ending somewhere, it will be all that much sweeter after the long wait.

Is it true that James Marsters will NOT be on Politically Incorrect tonight? -- Rachel, 17:09:53 03/06/02 Wed

[> T'is true, that's what the PI site says. -- Deeva, 19:18:27 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> Too bad! I've never seen him out of character...Would like to hear his real voice. -- Rachel, 20:16:42 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> [> It's very weird. -- Deeva, 21:10:55 03/06/02 Wed

I mean that it's really weird to hear him speak American. BtVS was the first thing that I had ever seen JM in. Because his character speaks in English, it's all that I'm used to. I've seen JM's guest role on Andromeda and even there he spoke with a very slight English accent.

[> [> [> [> I didn't even know he wasn't British until I saw him in an interview. -- Apophis, 22:15:54 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: It's very weird. -- juliaabra, 01:17:25 03/07/02 Thu

i think if you check out the baps site there is some footage, both audio and video, from a show jm did at that club in santa monica, 14 below. it is disconcerting to hear his real voice but cool too to see how effective his accent really is.

[> Some Clips of JM, "not Spike" -- LeeAnn, 05:35:55 03/07/02 Thu

Here's a link to a promo JM did in his own accent and with dark hair. Requires Real Media Player.

There are several promo clips of JM on this Page. My favorite is JM trying to discuss his fan mail and getting embarrassed and saying "ah" eleven times.

There are a couple more linked on this page

[> [> Thanks, LeeAnn -- I'm off to play the clips! -- Rachel, 06:09:36 03/07/02 Thu

The Ride Shirt (Spoilers for Hellsbells) -- neaux, 17:34:13 03/06/02 Wed

Does anyone know the name of the Roller Coaster that the Shirt Buffy was Wearing was from?

Was it from Drakken.. or Drakkenfire? or something like that from Busch Gardens??

[> Interesting Observation (spoilers for next episode) -- Rachel, 20:18:45 03/06/02 Wed

Because I've heard that ME was filming at an amusement park with Buffy and the Troika.

[> [> Re: Interesting Observation (spoilers for next episode) -- neaux, 06:50:54 03/07/02 Thu

Others in the chat can vouche that I went insane last night trying to find that shirt on the internet.. and if it was from a roller coaster ride, and I couldnt find total proof. But I still wish I knew which ride it was.

Buffy, and her 3 men -- vampire hunter D, 17:35:44 03/06/02 Wed

I'd like to share an observation I've had with you. A few years ago, I read in the Playboy advisor that somebody (I don't remember who) thinks that ewvery woman should have 3 lover in her lifetime: One who is her ideal dream guy to be her first, one who is real wild who she can experiment with, and one straight laced normal guy to settle down with.

It's occured to me that Buffy has done this, she just got the last two in the wrong order. Angel is buffy's idal mate, and he was her first. But then she went to Riley, who is more the third guy than anything. Now she's with (was with) Spike, who fits number two great.

I don't really have a point to this. just an interesting observation. But maybe now that Buffy has had her #2 guy, she can finally find someone to settle with.

I'd also like to see how things go when Dawn starts to date. Lets hope she doesn't go the road her sister did.

[> Re: Buffy, and her 3 men -- Rob, 17:42:02 03/06/02 Wed

Dawny should go out with that demon teen she was talking to at the wedding...They'd make a nice couple!


[> [> Re: Buffy, and her 3 men -- Apophis, 17:51:16 03/06/02 Wed

Yeah, they seemed good together. The only problem is, if they try that "parking" stunt, Dawn'll gash her head open on a horn.

[> [> [> She could wear a helmet! I definitely felt sparks between them! -- Rob, 20:44:28 03/06/02 Wed

[> [> [> Dawnie and the horn(y) guy! :oP -- Deeva, 21:05:27 03/06/02 Wed

I couldn't help it! It was out there for the saying! And at the risk of sounding a little like I'm a perv but this line of thinking has me thinking of other places being gashed. Ewww and yeowch! I know. Bad Deeva! Bad, bad Deeva! Back to the dark cave I go.

[> [> [> [> Yes, off to the cave with you! LOL! :o) -- Rob, 06:25:23 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Dawnie and the horn(y) guy! :oP -- pagangodess, 11:53:30 03/07/02 Thu

Hey, Deeva, I like where this is going!

They could be called 'Dawnie and Horny'.

"Oh, look, here come Horny and Dawnie!" or "Did you hear about the thing with Dawnie and Horny?"

(crawling into the dark cave with Deeva)

[> You did what? -- Peanut, 08:44:48 03/07/02 Thu

>>>I read in the Playboy advisor

There's words?

Words you have retained for years?

I have no response to that.

[> Re: Buffy, and her 3 men -- Dyna, 10:15:21 03/07/02 Thu

Can I just say, what's with the limit of 3? Freakin' Playboy Adviser grumble double-standard grumble strange 1950s mentality grumble grumble--

I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?

[> [> No, it was more like the MINIMUM is 3 -- vampire hunter D, 13:40:23 03/07/02 Thu

If you need more, then go for more. Three was just the fewest a girl needs.

Bar -Mitzfah? <sp?> -- sTalking Goat, 21:06:48 03/06/02 Wed

Please excuse the forthcoming display of of cultural ignorance.

Willow said (In relation to Xander's parents) " ...I haven't seen them this bad since my Bar- Mitzfah."
I was under the immpression that only boys had those...

[> Girls have bat mitzvahs. Orthodox and some conservative congregations don't let girls. -- Sophist, 21:26:03 03/06/02 Wed

[> Bat Mitzvah -- d'Herblay, 21:28:53 03/06/02 Wed

The Bat Mitzvah (the Bat is pronounced "bas") is a ceremony created in the 1920s for young women as a counterpart to the Bar Mitzvah. Often (but not always) it is celebrated when a girl reaches the age of twelve rather than thirteen. In Orthodox traditions that do not allow women to participate in certain services, the Bat Mitzvah is basically a party, but in Reform and other traditions, it is a full compliment to the Bar Mitzvah

[> [> close...real close, but... -- anom, 00:54:06 03/07/02 Thu

"...(the Bat is pronounced 'bas')...."

"Bas" is the Ashkenazic pronunciation (used in Yiddish too). "Bat" is used in modern Hebrew.

"Often (but not always) it is celebrated when a girl reaches the age of twelve rather than thirteen."

It's 12 in Orthodox & most (I think) Conservative practice, usually 13 in Reform ('cuz they don't know any better, some would say).

"In Orthodox traditions that do not allow women to participate in certain services, the Bat Mitzvah is basically a party,..."

That depends; there are ways around it, like having the Bas (I'm Ashkenazic) Mitzvah read something other than the Torah portion or just give a speech, or holding it at different service (other than Shabbes morning), or doing it w/a women's prayer group. (Even in Orthodoxy, there's a spectrum.)

"...but in Reform and other traditions, it is a full compliment to the Bar Mitzvah"

Yup. But in Orthodox & Conservative Bar Mitzvahs, the (ex-)kid usually reads part of the Torah, Haftarah (reading from the Prophets), &/or a speech (on the Torah portion). In Reform, s/he usually conducts the service & gives the speech & someone else (a pro) reads the Torah & Haftarah.

(I have a button that says, "It's a Jewish thing. If you have a little time, I'll explain it to you." Maybe more than you wanted to know....)

[> [> [> Well, that's what I get for relying on rather than waiting for anom . . . -- d'Herblay, 01:08:56 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Those Burger Loa's aren't always the best source...... -- zargon, 13:48:04 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> Can I get one of those buttons? ;o) -- Rob, 06:24:08 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> sure... -- anom, 12:58:31 03/07/02 Thu

...go to & look in the Religion category, or just search on part of the "text."

[> [> [> [> [> Wow, I was kidding...But cool, thanks. I actually would like one! I'll go there now! -- Rob, 21:36:59 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Bat Mitzvah -- Dochawk, 08:41:18 03/07/02 Thu

In Orthodox circles women are not allowed on the Bimah (where the service is held) at all. There is a seperation between men and women called a mechitza (so that the men who can't restrain themselves ghave no sexual thoughts during prayer). There is no bat mitzvah in traditional orthodox circles.
In modern orthodoxy - there may be a celebration of a girl turning 13, but it would not be considered a bat mitzvah.

Traditionally, conservative synagogues hold Bar and Bat Mitzvah's around the 13th birthday. Its a symbol of the boy or girl entering adulthood (you used to get a vote in community decisions after your Bar Mitzvah, women didn't have to bother that long ago). Conservative Judaism is only about 150 year old.

Essentially Reform Judaism spans the spectrum from a celebration in English that doesn't mention God, to a more formal reading of Torah and Haftorah.

[> [> [> [> Re: Bat Mitzvah -- anom, 22:57:39 03/07/02 Thu

As an Orthodox friend of mine says, all answers to questions about Judaism begin the same way: Well, it depends....

"In Orthodox circles women are not allowed on the Bimah (where the service is held) at all."

I mentioned above that there's a spectrum even within Orthodoxy. As you say yourself, there are more traditional & more modern Orthodox Jews. In the nominally Conservative (it has mixed seating & a microphone; in all other respects it's Orthodox) synagogue I used to go to, when a woman was elected president (after all, it's not a religious position), the modern Orthodox rabbi told her there was no reason in Jewish law that she couldn't come up on the bimah to make announcements. But she didn't feel comfortable doing it, so he made them every Shabbes. In some synagogues, whether women may be on the bimah also depends on whether a service is going on. And in any case, much of what (too) many Orthodox Jews believe is Jewish law is in fact custom.

"There is no bat mitzvah in traditional orthodox circles.
In modern orthodoxy - there may be a celebration of a girl turning 13, but it would not be considered a bat mitzvah."

Actually, 12 for girls in Orthodoxy & much of Conservatism. And in some modern Orthodox congregations, it is indeed considered a bas mitzvah. The daughter of friends of mine will have her bas mitzvah in a few months in an Orthodox synagogue--a very liberal one, but Orthodox nonetheless. With a mechitzah & everything. Her cousin, at her bas mitzvah a few weeks ago at a less liberal Orthodox synagogue, read the entire Torah portion for that week & the Haftarah & gave a talk on the Torah portion she read--the same things a boy would do. In a couple of cases, daughters of other friends have had their bas mitzvahs at the services of women's prayer groups, & everyone called these events bas mitzvahs.

Technically, "bar/bas mitzvah" refers to the person him/herself, who becomes "son/daughter of the commandment" (old enough to be required to obey Jewish law) at 12/13. There are several things children under these ages can't do, incl. be called up to say the blessing for the Torah reading & do the reading itself. It become a tradition to mark a child's reaching this age by calling him (at the time) up to do these things; celebrations became more & more elaborate, but this is the essence of the bar/bas mitzvah ceremony. Even this isn't necessary to -make- one a bar/bas mitzvah, & Jewish law doesn't require it; a Jew -is- bar or bas mitzvah once he or she reaches age 13 (or 12) whether or not anything is done to officially recognize the occasion.

I feel like ordering a new button: "...and if you've got a little more time, I'll explain it in more detail...." And there is indeed more detail to be gone into, but only if somebody really wants to know.

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