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On Cordelia, Prophylactics and Prophesy (Spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- Isabel, 23:23:45 03/06/02 Wed

This is an idea that I've had for a couple of days that I thought I'd place before the board. I hope I'm not repeating something someone else has mentioned. I tried checking as many threads as possible, but I didn't see it.

Let me start with a coincidental non sequitur: Did you know that prophet and prophylactic are right next to each other in my dictionary?

Back to topic: Why has no one at AI heard from Cordy in at least 2 weeks? (I assume the same amount of time has passed for them.) She used to get at least a couple of visions a week if not more. Yes, she's on vacation, but do we really believe that Champion-like seers get vacations from the PTB? Ever? I remember hearing at least a couple people on the show asking if Cordy had called in and she hadn't. We all presume she's comshucking her heart out, and we're probably right.

It got me to thinking. Did the Supernatural Prophylactic work? Did she lose her powers to Groo, and that's why she hasn't had any warning about the kidnapping, assault, and (attempted, hopefully) murder of her friends? She's hardly the self absorbed Queen C who'd put her enjoyment over the welfare of her friends anymore. If she knew, she'd say something. Therefore she doesn't know.


Possibility #1 is it didn't work and she lost her powers to Groo.

Unlikely, since the characters've gone through such trials to make sure she kept her visions. Plus, Groo is a white hat. He doesn't have a manipulative muscle on his well sculpted body. If he had a vision that the gang was in danger, he'd tell Cordy and they'd ride to the rescue.

Possibility #2 is there were no visions sent by the PTB. It's all written in stone and the PTB weren't going to allow Cordy and Groo to mess up "What MUST Happen." (portentous music in background)

I don't buy that. Like Fred, I don't believe in inevitable predestination. The Hamburger Loa said, "The Vampire must devour the son." It could have come to pass already since Angel's been fed Connor's blood or will in the future if Angel kills him and sucks his blood. I think that there's a lot of wiggle room in the fulfilling of prophecies. I think the PTB themselves aren't 100% sure which side Angel will be on in the coming Apocalyptic Battle. Plus, not everything that happened was directly involved with the prophecy. Cordy could have gotten a warning about something not related to Connor. Plus, something in the reading of the prophecy could have been lost in the translation. Wes wasn't working from the original text and mistakes can be made. And finally, I'd think it would be awful if the PTB set Wes up to be Judas.

Possibility #3 is the Supernatural Prophylactic worked just fine. Cordy kept her powers, the PTB got involved and sent her visions about the danger to her friends, but she didn't get them.

What's a 'prophylactic?' A condom. Something that prevents the transmission of disease or sperm from one person to another. A barrier.

When Angel went to the brothel they told him Cordy had to drink the whole potion at once and that it would only be effective for a couple of weeks. I don't remember anyone asking HOW the potion worked. What if it serves as a barrier around her powers preventing anything from getting at them until it wears off? What if the PTB sent her visions that she couldn't receive?

What would that do to her? She's probably going to have some guilt that she was off having fun while her friends had all those horrible things happen to them. But for her to know she was supposed to make a difference in the tragedy while she "turned off her answering machine" so she could have sex? If she were there, Wes would have had a confidante. She might have stopped Wes from the kidnapping and assault. Connor would not have been taken to a Hell dimension.

What's that going to do to her relationship with Groo? With Angel? I agree she'd defend Wes if she had to. What about Gunn and Fred?

I hope she enjoys this vacation. Life is really gonna suck for her when she gets back.

[> I go for Poss #3 (spoil ST) -- bienbizare, 11:05:34 03/07/02 Thu

I think it was probably #3, that Cordy stopped getting visions for the duration of the potion's potency. If she or Groo were getting them, I'm sure AI would be getting messages about them. C may be on vacation, but it doesn't mean she stopped caring. Plus with all the stuff going down at AI, I'm sure she would have, under normal circumstances, gotten some visions.

Yes, there will be some major guilt. And I bet she won't be taking any more vacations or mystical prophylactics any time soon, which I think will lead her to say buh-bye to Groo.

[> [> Or... (continuation of thought) -- bienbizare, 11:12:19 03/07/02 Thu

Maybe it's something else, like Cordy and Groo are not busy getting it on but have run into a big demon (evil demons, not good demons like her :)) hideout somewhere and are in perilous danger. Cordy's getting visions of what's going on in LA, but she's trapped fighting the demons and can do nothing!

What turmoil.

Or maybe she's finally experiencing her demon-ness and it's having some really nasty consequences so she's too occupied to deal with her friend's problems.

I seriously doubt it, but I thought that these possibilites had to be thrown out there, for speculation's sake, ya know.

[> [> [> Perfectly good possibilities... -- Isabel, 13:31:11 03/07/02 Thu

[> Possibility #4 -- pagangodess, 11:48:15 03/07/02 Thu

Or maybe, she's only getting visions of things happening in the near vicinity of wherever she's at. Like she did when she was in Pylea.

Kind of makes sence, because she never has any visions of demons in Sunnydale, if she did, they would have tried to save Buffy and Dawn from Glory.

So, maybe, Cordy had a vision while on vacation with Groo of something happening in the nearby area and are trying to help those in need (between the 'com' and the 'shucking', of course).

Although, I like your theories also.


[> [> That makes sense, except... -- Masq, 12:56:53 03/07/02 Thu

It explains how her visions have worked, for the most part. Except:

Doyle had a vision of Buffy in danger in Sunnydale in the BtVS ep "Pangs" while Doyle was in LA (Bachelor Party). It is assumed because the PTB's wanted Angel to help the Slayer in that instance.

Cordy had visions of everyone in pain in the world in To Shanshu in LA (although that was forced upon her by the demon Vocah)

[> [> Re: Possibility #4 -- Isabel, 13:00:37 03/07/02 Thu

That makes sense. It does no good to send a vision to someone who can't possibly intervene for the victim. (Oh Cordelia, FYI, this person's being torn apart in Salt Lake City in, ooh, 8 minutes. Here's the smells.) ;)

But I'm not sure they ever left Cordy's apartment. ;)

[> [> [> Sure they did -- Vickie, 16:38:06 03/07/02 Thu

Left the apartment, that is. Would you want to comshuk with Dennis watching?

[> [> [> [> thanks for the laugh of the day, Vickie! :) -- zargon, 20:33:55 03/07/02 Thu

[> That Vision Thing (two contradictory theory fragments and spoilers for ST) -- matching mole, 13:31:57 03/07/02 Thu

How exactly do the visions work? Do the PTB discern events about to happen and deliberately select events for vision inclusion? Or is Cordelia some sort of clairvoyant signal receiver designed to pick up a certain type of information? She only seems to get visions about supernatural danger. She's never, to my knowledge, gotten one about an ordinary mugging, rape, murder, etc. (or maybe I've just forgotten - corrections would be welcome). Also the time between vision and event seems fairly random. Sometimes it is days or weeks in advance, sometimes only an hour. So consider the following.

Most of the crucial events in sleep tight had no supernatural aspects. Wesley abducting the baby. Justine attacking Wesley and abducting the baby. Holtz's gang attacking the Hyperion Hotel (Cordelia's visions didn't warn AI of human attacks in earlier episodes either did they? I can't remember any examples but that doesn't mean it didn't happen). These things just may not show up on Cordelia's vision radar.

Cordelia may have picked up on the whole Sahjan opening up the portal and Holtz leaping through it but might not have had time to report in before things went to hell. Of course none of this explains why she didn't report any other visions during her two week absence. Given that they made a specific point of mentioning that fact I think something significant to the plot must have happened to her and Gru. But what?

Here is my own wildly improbable wacky theory. Sahjan is actually the child of Gru and Cordelia. Neither of them are completely human and Cordelia's visions are a form of time travel. Perhaps spoiled brat Connor is really mean to baby Sahjan throughout childhood and Sahjan blames Angel for letting it happen. Sahjan has somehow lured his future parents out of the picture so that they won't get harmed in ensuing events or prevent the events from happening. As several people have pointed out it is very unlikely that Wesley would have acted the way he did if Cordelia was around to confide in or simply to observe his bizarre behavior.

[> [> Cordy's visions (poss spoilers/rumour) -- yabyumpan, 00:15:17 03/08/02 Fri

"How exactly do the visions work? Do the PTB discern events about to happen and deliberately select events for vision inclusion? Or is Cordelia some sort of clairvoyant signal receiver designed to pick up a certain type of information? She only seems to get visions about supernatural danger. She's never, to my knowledge, gotten one about an ordinary mugging, rape, murder, etc. (or maybe I've just forgotten - corrections would be welcome)" In I fall to Pieces from S1, Cordelia says something to Angel about whether the Dr can see what the woman is doing with hidden cameras or something, not everything is supernatural. Angel replies that Doyle got the message for him so it must be supernatural (or something along those lines)

" Of course none of this explains why she didn't report any other visions during her two week absence. Given that they made a specific point of mentioning that fact I think something significant to the plot must have happened to her and Gru. But what?" I'm sort of going with the theory/rumour that Cordy and Groo have been kidknapped. There is a rumour doing the rounds that Lilah kidknaps them and plays Cordy a tape of Angel talking to Lorne about how he loves Cordy. Not sure if i believe that part, i don't know why Lilah would do that but I can see her kidknapping Cordy so she wont pass on any visions (lilah does seem to have a death wish when it comes to Angel)

How will Wesley explain it (spoilers for ST and beyond) -- JustAsking, 09:48:53 03/07/02 Thu

Here's the passage from the end of Old Gang of Mine:

It's never easy. The pull of divided
loyalties. Any choice we do end
up making, we feel as though we've
betrayed someone.


(after a beat)
If you ever withhold information
or attempt to subvert me again --
I will fire you. I can't allow any
one member of this team to compromise
the safety of the group. No matter
who it is
. If you do it again, you will
be dismissed -- bag and baggage -out
of a job and on to the streets.

Of course, Wesley already knows he's meat; he told Justine it was a tossup on who he loathed the most. Whacking Lorne and the "withholding information from the group" hypocrisy are *much* more serious offenses than trying to save the baby. Which of course failed utterly, thank you Greek drama Plot-Hammer o' Fun.

If Wesley had taken the Loa's advice and asked the question "When?", the Loa may well have told him that vampire was *already* devouring the son in the form of his blood, and that the prophecy was moot.

Maybe "Forgiving" will refer to Wesley's opinion of himself. It's going to take Lorne and the others longer than one ep.

[> Wonderful insight! (Spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- Scroll, 10:17:32 03/07/02 Thu

That is a wonderful parallel you've drawn between Gunn's situation in Old Gang of Mine, and Wesley's dilemma in Loyalty and Sleep Tight. And it's very interesting and makes for much more angst for Wes that he's the one who laid down the law for Gunn, and yet he has done exactly the same thing by withholding crucial information from Angel and the others.

But I don't believe that Wesley will be forgiving himself anytime soon. In fact, I can see Cordelia, Lorne, et al (maybe not Angel just yet) forgiving Wesley long before he ever gets over his self- loathing. Wes has always had a very low opinion of himself and Connor's loss is definitely going to drive him to despair. Considering how distraught and almost suicidal he's been lately, I wouldn't be surprised if he does something desperate. Or, well, even more desperate...

I wonder how far Wesley will go to get Connor back. I can see him making a bargain with a devil just to make things right again. Any other speculations?

[> Re: How will Wesley explain it (spoilers for ST and beyond) -- mundusmundi, 12:56:54 03/07/02 Thu

Wow, thanks for reminding me of that little speech. Probably just one of the many things festering subconsciously in me while I watched the last ep.

Was anyone bothered by the contrivance of having Lorne "read" just about everything Wes had done and was going to do except for the reason why he was doing it? Or if Lorne did know he kept it to himself. I'm just wondering how much Wesley is going to have to explain and how much everyone will already know by the time we return. On the forgiveness scale, here's how I'd rate them (a no-brainer, but here goes anyway):

1) Cordy, obviously, should forgive Wes first, esp. since she wasn't there. She may even feel guilty herself.

2) Gunn and Fred. They seem the likely candidates to find Wesley and take him to the hospital. Who knows, they may feel a bit remorseful for being overly preoccupied with each other and not being there for their friend. (Not saying they should feel guilty, just looking at it from a dramatic standpoint.)

3) Lorne. This one's going to take some time. In a way, for him, this may be even a worse offense than having his club destroyed.

4) Angel. Last season, around this time, it was Angel who had to make amends to Wesley and the rest. This year, it's Wes's turn. I can't even imagine how this is going to play out. Hopefully, it won't involve Pylea.

Another thought on "Sleep Tight." It was a flawed but strong episode, not quite up to the winning trifecta of "Waiting in the Wings," "Couplet," and "Loyalty," but damn good nonetheless. One distinction I've noticed between Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt's storytelling styles is that the former often starts with a complex premise and then parses the story down to its essence, whereas the latter usually starts simple and then lays on the complications piece by piece. Greenwalt can get a bit overheated and have too many things going on at once -- as in that anticlimactic final scene, which for me had the compounded distraction of wondering what the hell had happened to Wesley immediately prior. But he and the whole Angel writing team have stellar noir instincts, and because the film noir genre has a long, proud tradition of contrivances, plot holes and not making much sense on a story level but rather resonating on a psychological level, I find whatever "flaws" the show has strangely appropriate and satisfying.

[> [> Speculations for Forgiveness (spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- Scroll, 13:27:13 03/07/02 Thu

I wonder how much time will pass in the Buffyverse between Sleep Tight and Forgiveness? Sahjan said "Have a nice summer" as if a lot of time is going to pass (the requisite three months between seasons?) I'm hoping to see Angel's inital meeting with Wesley after he loses Connor... I'm afraid if 3 months have passed, some of the impact will be lost. And I think Wesley will definitely be the very last person to forgive himself, he's just like that.

Like you said, the plot contrivances in Sleep Tight seem glaring but the story is so gripping you're willing to forgive them. I think this is the difference in quality between AtS and BtVS at this time. While I enjoyed Once and Far Away and As You Were, they weren't as *gripping* as the last 3-4 AtS eps, or Dead Things (Hell's Bells was good but in a different way, not a horror story way). At least that's my opinion, you're free to argue that being left at the altar is the ultimate horror! : )

[> [> [> Re: Speculations for Forgiveness (spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- mm, 14:48:35 03/07/02 Thu

I wonder how much time will pass in the Buffyverse between Sleep Tight and Forgiveness?

I'm guessing it'll be pretty close to immediate, for maximum dramatic impact. I'm taking Sahjan's funny-strange remark as an incongruous joke at this point.

And I think Wesley will definitely be the very last person to forgive himself, he's just like that.

Hadn't even thought of that. Good call.

Like you said, the plot contrivances in Sleep Tight seem glaring but the story is so gripping you're willing to forgive them. I think this is the difference in quality between AtS and BtVS at this time.

I'd be willing to forgive contrivances on BtVS were the current storyline more compelling. For me, "Hells Bells" was so blah-typical of this season that it probably explains why I'm responding more to AtS threads at this point. I'm just responding more to the story.

[> [> [> [> Re: Speculations for Forgiveness (spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- Arethusa, 07:30:11 03/08/02 Fri

This season AtS is plot-driven, while Buffy is being driven by character development, which is usually a more static situation. Some prefer one over the other, which may be why some fans are a little impatient with Buffy this season. I miss the old snake-spearing, demon-gutting "Buffy" too, but maybe ME is prepping us for next season, which I suspect will have apocalyptic action a-plenty.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Speculations for Forgiveness (spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- mm, 13:01:51 03/08/02 Fri

This season AtS is plot-driven, while Buffy is being driven by character development, which is usually a more static situation.

Good observation. Though ideally I'd argue that the best shows are driven by both. This season, the storyline for AtS has been propelled by much character development -- Angel's fatherhood, Cordy's sense of responsibility conflicting with her desires, Wesley's estrangement, Gunn and Fred's budding love affair. What's been thrilling about the last few episodes is how these characterizations have affected the main plot -- e.g., how Fred and Gunn's romance inadvertently left Wes feeling isolated, leading to his botched kidnapping of Connor and his appalling assault on Lorne. This is the kind of ricocheting scriptwriting that the BtVS team used to do so devastatingly well. I really wouldn't mind the increased emphasis on character development over on Buffy were it done as vividly as in Afterlife, for example. But when I see our beloved Slayer reduced to performing charades at a wedding ceremony, I begin to suspect that the writers aren't exactly firing on all cylinders.

Next week's episode does look promising, though. And I'm confident that next season -- especially if it's the last -- will rock, as you suggested. I want Buffy to go out a winner.

[> Great stuff! Always assuming -- Vickie, 16:34:35 03/07/02 Thu

he hasn't bled to death.

Just because I haven't seen it asked (AtS S3 Spoilers) -- Darby, 10:17:01 03/07/02 Thu

What are the odds that Connor grows up to be (wait for it)...Holtz? Dark, brooding, powerful, a good leader and a good man...?

And what are the chances that Justine in an "unchosen" Slayer, given that Fray explained that they have the Slayer powers before they get Chosen (or even if they don't). And that twins (wasn't Justine a twin?) may get different aspects of the power, one the knowledge and another the physicality.

Yes, it's idle speculation day here, a relatively efficient way to postpone doing too much real work...

[> Who Connor grows up to be.... Wild stuff here! (spoilers) -- Scroll, 10:31:18 03/07/02 Thu

What if Connor grows up to become Wesley? Sure, Wes doesn't look much like Angel or Darla or seem to have any of their virtures or flaws, except the dark brown hair (from Angel) and blue eyes (from Darla) and height (from Angel) and good heart (from Angel) and belief in destiny (from Angel) and emotional reserve (from Angel)... You see where I'm trying to go here? (I'm not sure how much I'm just poking fun at speculations and how much I really believe my own theory...)

Personally, I don't think Holtz is Connor for several reasons (least being that Sahjan seems to treat them as two separate people, not the same person from different times). Also Angel, as much as he may want to kill Holtz now, would never *eat* Holtz as prophesied. There's got to be something else going on, I don't know what...

Anyone else see Wesley as being Connor? Obviously brought back in time so that he ends up growing up in England with a neglectful and possibly abusive adopted father, Connor/Wesley is recruited into the Watchers Council and sent to Sunnydale where he meets his real father, a vampire with a soul who, two years ago killed his old lover who is later resurrected by an evil law firm and later sleeps with said souled vampire in a moment of despair and conceives the poor confused ex-Watcher who happens to be his own Uncle Wes...

I invite everyone to knock holes in my theory... or else applaud me on my insightful and accurate speculation.

[> [> You are a genius (comments on the crazy spec). -- bienbizare, 10:55:31 03/07/02 Thu

I don't know how it could be done or explained, that's what they have writers for, but I would love to see this happen. Wes kidnapping himself! Angel being Wes's dad! Wes being the son of Vamps. It has wonderful dramatic possibilities, but perhaps a bit too soap opera-y. Then again, I always love the soapy long lost kid stories.

I really doubt this will happen, but it's something that would definitely be fun to see. If the brilliant writers did come up with a way for it to happen with a legitimate explaination, it would definitely be fab.

[> [> [> Re: Thanks! : ) Should I recommend my plot to Greenwalt? -- Scroll, 11:07:32 03/07/02 Thu

I agree, Wesley as Connor would be *extremely* soap opera-ish but it would be so much fun! If they could write it without sinking into Days of Our Lives tripe, it would be a totally fresh arena to plumb for angst, completely changing the dynamics between Angel and Wesley. How would Angel deal with the fact that the man who'd betrayed him was actually his son? And if in his rage over losing Connor, Angel went ahead and *killed Wes* (thereby fulfilling the prophecy) how would he feel afterward? (Okay, Angel would never kill Wesley, but hey this is speculation right?)

Anyway, I'm gonna have some fun with my theory until it gets Jossed to hell... hopefully! (I'm sure Joss can come up with a better resolution to Connor's grown-up identity than I ever could!)

[> [> [> [> Yeah, send them a script. -- bienbizare, 11:16:09 03/07/02 Thu

And while you're at it, why don't you send "Days" a copy? They need a little help.

[> [> I was just thinking the same thing... -- Torisen (a newbie), 01:23:39 03/08/02 Fri

Hello. Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc.

This is definitely the most intriguing of the Which-Already-Established-Character-Could-Connor-Be? theories I've come accross. I don't see it as making any more sense or being any more likely to happen than the others, just more interesting. Frankly, I find Connor-is-Holtz to be rather dull and predictable, despite the potential for drama and angst - too many examples out there of characters discovering their enemy is really their long-lost parent/offspring a la Star Wars. Connor-is- Sahjan strikes me as overly-convoluted and too self-contained. Connor-is-Groo just makes me shudder (visions of silliness not at all in line with the angst of the last couple eps.)

Connor-is-Wesley would be a tricky path to walk for the writers, but it would definitely provide for some meaty character exploration. There's so much Angel and Wesley would have to reconcile.


Realizing the man he knew as his father and with whom he has serious issues is not his real father after all.

Knowing his true father is a friend who respects him and is aware of his strengths and leadership abilities.

Realizing his relationship with his true father may now be in jeporady due to his own actions.

Realizing that by trying to abduct his younger self, he may be responsible for whatever unpleasant childhood he experienced.

Knowing that he, a professional demon-hunter and former Watcher, is descended from vampires.

Knowing that he shouldn't rightfully exist.

Realizing that all the prophecy issues surrounding Connor now concern him (and that he could still be in danger from Angel if the whole "The Father will kill the Son" thing still has any bearing on anything.)

That's assuming, of course, that Wesley not only survives, but is in a state of mind where he can ponder all this.

Could Angel's pain and loss of trust over Wesley's abduction of Connor cause even more father- related trama for Wesley? Or will those issues abate somehow?


Losing infant Connor, along with his dreams of watching Connor grow up.

Losing Connor due to the actions of a trusted friend.

Knowing that the adult version of his son is safe and close by and has turned out to be an intelligent, talented friend he respects.

Knowing his own son is the trusted friend responsible for this painful loss.

Would discovering that Wesley is Conner make things better or worse in Angel's mind? Would Angel's forgiveness be automatic where it might have otherwise been impossible (or at least long in coming?)

Oh, the posibilities...

With all this speculation, the most surprising destiny for Connor may very well be that he grows up to be... just Connor.


[> [> Re: Who Connor grows up to be.... possible clue(spoilers) -- Darby, 05:28:13 03/08/02 Fri

To play vamp's advocate here, wouldn't Angel's "blood priming" that gave him a craving for Connor have given him a jones for Wes as well? They would have both set off whatever detectors vampires use for blood...

Hmm, now that I'm thinking about it, the vamp "blood thing" is a previously-used device on the show; was there anybody else in the cast to whom Angel's attitude changed around that time? We could have been given a clue...

[> Re: Just because I haven't seen it asked (AtS S3 Spoilers) -- hmmm.. neaux, 10:37:47 03/07/02 Thu

I like the Justine/Twin scenario Its a very cool idea of sharing powers. Like one saying "Form of an Iceburg" and the other turning into a "cheetah" (ok.. i'm joking here)

but still.. very interesting.

As for the Connor is Holtz theory.. I'm having "Back to the Future" Flashbacks, if that makes sense. But I only get my brain in a knot trying to create a timeline in my head of how Connor could be Holtz.. so I'd say No to that theory.

[> Or if that's not nutty enough...(AtS S3 Spoilers) -- Darby (wild-eyed), 11:00:52 03/07/02 Thu

...Connor is Angel! No wonder his family didn't think much of him - he wasn't actually theirs!

Ain't time paradoxes neato?

[> [> Re: Wow, that's *really* nutty! LOL (AtS S3 Spoilers) -- Scroll, 11:12:35 03/07/02 Thu

Your theory is even nuttier than mine! I love it! Despite being bombarded with time paradoxes with all the Star Trek I watch, I'm still really fascinated with the concept. But if the writers aren't careful, they might end up painting themselves into a corner. Just remember, as Captain Janeway says to Ensign Kim, "Don't think too hard about it, it'll just give you a headache." (or something like that!)

[> [> [> Too late. Time warp/paradox head ache has begun. -- Deeva, 12:10:15 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> Wuh? I don't think I can handle that leap. -- bienbizare, 11:23:00 03/07/02 Thu

I think we're having a bit too much fun w/ time paradoxes. My little uncreative brain cannot work out how one can be one's own father. But then again, two vamps having a human kid required an mega jumbo leap of blind faith too.

Ultimately though, too dramatically unsatisfying. If we're gonna play w/ time, let's do it to create some real havoc, right?

[> How about Connor being Holtz' infant son -- Masq, 11:38:03 03/07/02 Thu

Angelus was the one who ate him up, right?

Although I think they've already explained that "vampire will consume the child" thing. Just not the "Father will kill the son thing". They are two different things.

[> [> Re: How about Connor being Holtz' infant son -- Scroll, 12:04:47 03/07/02 Thu

I'm hoping you're right about the "vampire will consume his child" being completely different from "the father will kill the son" thing. If that is the case, then Connor might be safe from Angel since Angel has already 'devoured' his child through Lilah spiking his blood. And since anyone could be the father/son of the prophecy, it doesn't necessarily have to be Angel/Connor. Of course, this would greatly reduce the dramatic tension and I doubt Greenwalt would let that happen : (

I still go with my theory that Wesley is Connor as an adult. And even metaphorically speaking, Angel has 'devoured' Wes ever since Angel took him under his wing in Season 1. Wesley has been 'taken in' and 'taken over' by Angel in so many ways... I'm harkening back to a post that mentioned how parents 'devour' their children by living their lives through them a la Catherine (the Great) Madison and Amy and her cheerleading.

[> [> My Thoughts (Spoilers) -- Rand, 12:15:23 03/07/02 Thu

For me the only known person Conner could "be" would be Sahjan. I mean Sahjan wants revenge for something that has yet to happen, has odd powers, and knows a great deal about Conner. I mean being sucked into a hell dimension can do a lot to you. BTW, how come Sahjan didn't use his magic powers earlier?

[> [> [> Sahjhan's "powers" -- Masq, 12:51:08 03/07/02 Thu

Because he has no "magic powers" per se. Sahjhan is relatively powerless in our dimension, as we have seen. As a dimension-hopping demon, though, he has one ability he can use here--the ability to open and close portals so he can do the jumping.

How useful is this as a weapon, rather than a mode of transport? Not very useful, unless you can trick or coerce someone to jump through. Under normal circumstances, it's unlikely Sahjhan could tempt Angel through a portal.

[> [> [> [> Re: Sahjhan's "powers" -- matching mole, 13:35:35 03/07/02 Thu

Sahjan did imply that he could greatly enlarge the portal and suck everyone into it. If he really could do that he could have destroyed Angel, Connor, and everyone else in the Hyperion anytime he wanted. Perhaps he was lying?

[> BabyConnor is Holtz...(AtS S3 Spoilers) -- VampRiley, 13:36:26 03/07/02 Thu

Connor is Holtz? Hmm...interesting.

Original timeline:

1) Angel had sex with Darla and she gave birth to Connor, but died in the process, like we have seen.

2) In the original timeline, Angel raised Connor with the help of his friends. Holtz was never put into suspended animation. Justine and them never attacked Angel

3) Sometime in the future, Connor is sent back in time somehow and is found by somebody (the church or couple [like Superman] ) Maybe Sahjhan did it. He can
travel back and forth through time. He could have manipulated someone or something becuase he knows what Connor could have been because he saw it when he
was in another dimension. Imagine if Angel and Holtz were on good terms and Holtz believed in things the same way that Angel did? Could have been a very,
very scary thought to Sahjhan.

4) Connor is renamed Daniel Holtz and grows up to be a vampire hunter and tracks Angelus and Darla.

5) Sahjhan goes to Holtz after Darla and Angelus have killed his family and puts him in suspended animation.

6) For whatever reason Sahjhan hates Angel, he figures that getting his own son to kill him would be a very good idea.

7) Only Sahjhan doesn't like the way Holtz is doing things. And shifts his attention to BabyConnor himself. Sahjhan gets rid of Connor/Holtz and hurts Angel in a
very bad way. He does go from wanting Angel killed to wanting BabyConnor killed.

8) Sahjhan does know that there is something that everybody else has overlooked about Connor's blood. So he goes to Wolfram and Hart and conspires with Lilah.

9) He is pissed that Angel and Lilah seem to be conspiring behind his back. He does only get pictures and not words sometimes. And the clinking of the glasses can
be taken the wrong way without the conversation before it.

10) Sahjhan is fed up with everything taking so long, so he accelerates matters and shows up when the three teams are together wanting to keep the child for themselves and opens the portal.

11) He's surprised that Holtz would actually take himself into the "darkest of the dark worlds". Only there is something else that happens that he doesn't realize
actually happens.

12) Holtz lands on the other side of the portal. He's taking in his new surroundings as soon as possible. He knows that if Sahjhan was telling the truth, he needs to be ready at a moment's notice in case something comes upon them. He sticks BabyConnor in a safe corner for a moment and jumps something and kills them. He probably would snap his neck, hoping it would work. And before you say anything, there are supposed to be thousands of species of demons according to Giles, and that is just the ones the council knows about. There could be an untold number of other ones. There are thousands and thousands of other dimensions besides the one this show is in. He most likely wouldn't take on something really huge. Probably something small and take something of their's: a weapon or a body part and use that to get something bigger and better. Holtz has shown skill, stealth and and quickness that seems to be not human in origin. Sahjhan did say that there was something that everyone else over looked. If BabyConnor is really Holtz, this might explain it.

13) After sometime, he comes across a being who can help him get out of there. Holtz is looking worn around the edges from trying to survive there and trying to
keep BabyConnor alive. He puts on his best game face, but the one he finds to help him knows he can't back up his attitude.

14) Maybe Holtz knows of a dimensional or time travel spell, but doesn't have everything. Things don't go as plan and the spell doesn't work exactly as it is
supposed to.

15) Holtz dies in Quortoth hoping that BabyConnor is safe and that someone will find him and take care of him.

16) BabyConnor is sent back to his home dimension and back into the past. The same people that found Holtz when he was a baby find him again (again at least from our perspective) and the cycle starts all over.

That would actually be a rather sad story. He gets taken away from his parents, he becomes the sworn enemy of two who are actually his parents, gets his human family killed by his parents, travels across time (suspended animation) and ends up taken himself away from his own, real father, only to die in a nightmarish

Of course, if this were true, then my theory on how Sahjhan is really Connor in the Quick Thoughts on...thread would be negated. If this theory is actually true, maybe Connor and Angel did something to Sahjhan in the future and the Sahjhan we're seeing is actually FutureSahjhan and he wants to get revenge on them.

Timeline/time travel speculation is fun.


[> [> Smoke coming out of my ears... -- Dichotomy, 16:50:00 03/07/02 Thu

Wow! I *think* I followed that scenario, and it actually sounds plausible! My question: In this reality, why does Holtz keep Connor alive? Does he know they are one and the same? Or does he just want to hurt Agnel by taking his baby and salve his own emotional wounds by having a son to raise?

'Splain to me! I can't work it out!

[> [> [> My punish Angel. -- VampRiley, 18:22:04 03/07/02 Thu

Instead of just killing Connor, with him alive, Angel suffers more knowing that he is out there somewhere and Angel can't get to him. Angelus took his family, those he cared about, and now Holtz is taking Connor (whom Angel cares about) from Angel. With Connor dead, it would not hurt as much as if he was alive. Plus, there's that whole Connor being an innocent.


[> [> [> [> Just want you all to know, this thread made my head spin right off and away! -- Marie, 01:59:35 03/08/02 Fri

And can anyone tell me why, when Angel would've done anything he had to to get to Pylea and find Cordy, he wouldn't do even more to find a way to open another portal and go find his son?

Or was that explained in the episode?


[> [> [> [> [> We never got that far in the ep. -- VampRiley, 04:53:55 03/08/02 Fri

The last few minutes were definitly high emotionally for Angel. He just broke down, but not like DawnBreakdown.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, in that case, then... -- Marie, 08:23:13 03/08/02 Fri

...when you've thought about "Oh my god, what next will happen?!", as I'm sure you must've, do you think that Angel will let it rest there? Speaking as a parent, I would never, ever, give up trying to find a way to get to my son and bring him home. I can't see Angel doing it differently, can you?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> At the moment, I see him being in shock... -- VampRiley, 09:19:56 03/08/02 Fri the end of the ep. They showed it to us. Holtz took Connor through the portal and it closed. Angel, and vampires in general, don't have a natural ability to travel through dimensions. There are some instances where travel to certain dimensions have been seen by using certain items (Pylea by reading from the textbook from the library, whatever demon dimension Acathla opened his mouth to, the dimension that Billy was being held in by putting the coin and key together, etc.) But one way to a particular dimension may not work on getting to another one. My money is on that it won't happen when opening a dimensional portal by use of magick. If science was being used...maybe. But not magick.

I see Angel as getting up and trying anything that he could. Quortoth may not be able to be accessed except by certain individuals and Angel may not be able to get in contact with them. He might try contacting the Powers like he did when they found out Cordelia's visions were killing her or try to find some other sort of guide. But during his quest to try to find anything that could help, I definitly see him being short tempered and very impatient (really on edge and wanting to a lot of violence), like when he came back to the hotel from saving the world from the Lubber demons last year, only to a much greater degree.

Unless he finds Connor dead, I doubt he would ever try to stop finding him. But if he were to spend every, or at the very least most a majority, of his time, would probably depend on the world that is happening around him. But I don't think he will ever get over losing Connor. He had gotten something he had never expected to get and then losing it. It can't but have an effect on him.

But would they repeat a multi-ep arch where they travel to another dimension to save someone they cared about. There definitly seems to be parallels that occur frequently, but would they repeat a multi-ep arch?

If Connor will never appear in another ep again, except in flashbacks and the daydreams of the others (and if Holtz, Wesley and Sahjhan are not really the adult version of Connor), I see Angel as being more withdrawn, probably like he was back in season 1 of Buffy. The rest of this season could be about their attempt about getting Connor back. I can definitly see a rift between Angel and Wesley happening. He might take the summer off like he did last year, maybe longer. The Super Bowl of Brooding looks like it is defintely in the cards for the near future.

I have faith that whatever they choose to do, that it won't suck.


James Marsters in TV Guide -- Lilac, 11:20:36 03/07/02 Thu

Since no else has mentioned this, I thought I would stick it in here. It's nice to see JM getting recognition for the amazing job that he does. (I am trying a link I hope it works -- yay it seems to.)

TV Guide

[> Re: James Marsters in TV Guide -- Deeva, 12:03:08 03/07/02 Thu

Thanks for the link. I was going to look for the link but you've saved me a bit of time.

[> [> James Marsters in TV Guide (Buffy in Soap Opera Digest) -- JIE, 13:01:14 03/07/02 Thu

Since we're on the topic of Buffy in the media, it also got a Thumbs Up! in Soap Opera Digest this week. The complete review is at the Cross & Stake (It may be in the archives).

On topic - Good for JM! It's about time he got some recognition for his fabulous work.

Parallels wanted (spoilery for HB, ST) -- Sophist, 12:29:38 03/07/02 Thu

Age has treated us to a series of fine posts about parallels between AtS and BtVS. I'm feeling starved for more (and better than I can do on my own), so I'm starting a new thread. Let me suggest some:

Xander/Wesley, especially their mental state, but I think much more, e.g., a tendency to self-pity, to take things literally, and to act as they perceive the right without consultation

Anya/Angel, feeling of betrayal

There are also some parallels with previous seasons:

Xander/Oz, for leaving Willow in WaH

Xander/Angel, for leaving Buffy in The Prom

Anya/Willow or Buffy

Wesley/Giles, from Helpless

Wesley/Xander, from Becoming II (concealing the re-souling spell from Buffy)

Angel/Buffy in either episode

[> Re: Parallel: Spoilers for BS6 and AS3 to Present. Some Speculation. -- Age, 21:25:24 03/07/02 Thu

Both arcs seem to be about growing up, suffering, and loss as Buffy has lost her mum; while Holtz(and now Angel) and his gang have lost those dear to them(the cycle of vengeance seems to be part of both arcs, and a questioning of whether human beings deserve retribution and not love and forgiveness); it also is an examination of the darker aspect of Buffy and a re-examination of the value and potential problem of Angel's demon.

Here are some parallels between 'OAFA' and 'Couplet':

The two eps begin and finish similarly in that the focus is on the parent and child: Dawn's feeling of loneliness and rejection as Buffy, and generalized to the Scooby gang, all Dawn's family, seem not to have any time for her; and Connor whose father, at the beginning of the ep, seems to see only Groo, Angel's rival, when he looks at his son. In both eps the movement may be to strengthen the parental bonds as Dawn makes her feeling of loneliness known and Buffy responds; and Angel, working through his jealousy with Groo and letting Cordelia go, comes to understand that he never will be alone as he is father to Connor. In shutting the door to the Scoobies as they are released from the curse, Buffy comes to reaffirm her family in Dawn; and it is by shutting the door to romance with Cordy and letting her go, literally out the door of the hotel, that Angel reaffirms his family in Connor.

It is the theme of loneliness, and loneliness in a crowd that is your family which seems to be the main link between these eps. In the 'Buffy' ep it is the teenager's loneliness and suspicion of being seen as less than human which is examined; and, to balance this out, it is the adults of 'Angel' whose loneliness is examined, mostly through Cordelia, but really through them all.

I say mostly through Cordelia because it is her declaration of loneliness and wanting it to stop that most attracted my associative brain to Dawn in 'OAFA'. But we do get representations of loneliness and longing in Angel and Wes, particularly in the scene just after Groo has slain the demon. In that scene the two older guys look on from afar as their younger replacements, Groo and Gunn, celebrate with Cordy and Fred in a situation which could very well be described by the 'Buffy' ep title, 'Older and Far Away.'

We have then Angel the father who seems to be putting his attention onto Connor, but is actually preoccupied with Cordy and Groo; and Buffy the mother who is playing lip service(as the teaser shows) to Dawn, but who hasn't come home properly so to speak, hasn't made the house into her home. It's intriguing to note that in one scene of 'Angel' Angel mentions that the hotel was becoming like a hotel. Perhaps the writer wanted to convey a similar idea to that in 'Buffy' wherein the father still needed to reaffirm his bond with his son to make the hotel a home.

Another possible link between the eps is the desire on Cordy's part to have sex yet fearing that she will lose something, and therefore keeping herself from it. It is Buffy who is keeping herself from sex partly through the intervention of Tara, the latter having become what appears to be a mother figure to her.

The idea of someone in the triangle of relationships in both eps being sweet is common to both: Groo, the object of Angel's jealousy and fear, is portrayed as sweet; while Spike derides his rival out of jealousy as sweet to Buffy.

Another intriguing point of comparison is part of the speech by Halfrek as she chastises the adults for not hearing Dawn's pain. She says that the adults deserve to be cursed, that all they have now is time and each other. This made me think of Angel as cursed vampire who has an eternity of time, but, like the Scoobies imprisoned in the house, is still cut off from human society as is shown when Angel cannot come out into the park in sunlight.

Moving on to 'AYW' and 'Loyalty.'

In 'AYW' we get to see Riley and Sam as operatives of a paramilitary operation; and in the 'Angel' ep 'Loyalty' we get our first real look inside the paramilitary organization headed by Holtz. This may be a deliberate link between the two eps to highlight Holtz's desire for revenge. Riley plays the good soldier, coming into Sunnydale to take out a demon, not for revenge, as Buffy asks him it might be, but just because he is following orders. There seems to be a difference between Riley's and Sam's attitude and that of the Holtz gang. R and S feel as though they are doing the right thing, saving Sunnydale and the world from a breeding demon; while Holtz and his lot don't really put up much of a facade over their feelings of anger and their need for revenge. Riley and Sam both felt loss in their lives, but have overcome that through love for each other(perhaps); the Holtz players seem to have been all consumed by the rage at that which killed their loved ones, and have banded together to strengthen that hate.

It's intriguing to note the parallel of device usage in the two eps. Riley uses his locator gadget, while Wesley locates the Loa Burger demon using a device also. While the Loa Burger character reinforces the food consumption motif of the 'Angel' ep as Angel keeps drinking more blood and Wes is consumed with/by his divided loyalties, the specific use of a burger place does harken to the Double Meat Palace of 'Buffy' this season.

This week's 'Hell's Bells' and the 'Angel' 'ST' ep are linked together also as the vengeance aspects of both arcs get played out. Angel loses Connor, his family, due to Holtz's desire to seek vengeance for what Angel did when he was simply a demon; while Anya loses Xander, her family, due to the person/demon Anyanka had cursed wanting to seek vengeance for what she did as a demon. It remains to be seen how either Angel or Anya will react.(Just a note: while Xander does make the decision not to marry Anya due to the fear that he's internalized his father's abusive way, the person seeking revenge helps precipitate Xander's thoughts, and acts, as a supernatural metaphor, to represent Xander becoming aware of a certain pattern internalized.)

Also, it is intriguing to note that some people have been speculating(and it's only speculation, not a spoiler) that Sahjhan may be from the future, coming back to prevent something from happening. In an 'Angel' episode where Sahjhan's action helps Holtz to take revenge on Angel by kidnapping his son, Connor(possible allusion to the film 'Terminator II' as others have suggested), it's intriguing that in the 'Buffy' ep we see this idea of a character from the future coming back to prevent something from happening(although this turns out to be false.) It's as if through the 'Buffy' episode we are being teased into speculating about Sahjhan, especially as he reveals so little about who he is and where he's from. Is he from the future or is this false? And now we'll have to wait some weeks to find out.


[> [> Wonderful. Thanks. -- Sophist, 08:14:05 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> More on Hells Bells and ST - Anya and Angel -- Caroline, 09:45:45 03/08/02 Fri

For me one of the most intriguing common theme of both shows this week has the the notion of karma ripening. Anya and Angel both lost something they loved due to past actions - Angel lost his son and Anya lost her relationship/marriage to Xander. This fits in with the wheel metaphor Riley spoke of in As You Were. There is a Mahayana Buddhist text called the Wheel of Sharp Weapons by Dharmarakshita which has a recurring refrain in its verses:

These are the wheels of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.

For Anya, her 1000 years of being an agent of vengeance have finally caught up to her. But in many ways, I think it would be a valuable thing for her. There were several times in Hells Bells where she was going through different versions of her wedding vows. They became deeper and more authentic at each pass, and she was obviously coming closer to the essential meaning of love. That's pretty good for an ex-demon on her way to rediscovering her humanity. But just as she discovered something valuable, her karma ripened at the exact moment to cause her maximum pain - the wheel of sharp weapons. But I would speculate that because she has realized the meaning of love, she would find the path of vengeance unrewarding. At least, this is my interpreration to Anya's path to humanity. Up until now, she has learnt to love Xander but now her challenge is to learn to know Xander.

And hopefully there will be a lot of soul-searching for her in terms of her vengeance demon identity and actions. D'Hoffryn, Halfrek and co. are being presented to us not as evil demons but as neutral agents of karma. But are they really? So demons are becoming more shaded in BtVS but can there really be a reconciliation of their values with human values? How will Anya reconcile her past actions and their consequences?

For Angel, he is still on his path to seeking redemption yet he has not negated his negative karma and is still suffering the consequences. Unlike Anya, Angel has explicitly disavowed his demons origins and actions, labelling them wrong and struggling to do good. That makes the ripening of his karma even more painful. This really brings home the Buddhist point about all things in this life being impermanent and ultimately, all that your attachments bring you is suffering. Maybe Angel's karma is to work for the good of mankind, never having the comfort and solace of a more personal kind of happiness. This theme is not a new one and it's amazing how he lost the one thing her turned to (his son, his family) when he shut the door on the possibility of a relationship with Cordelia - the wheel of sharp weapons.

[> [> [> Great stuff. And all I had to do was ask. -- Sophist, 11:01:50 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> Great stuff. And all I had to do was ask. -- Sophist, 11:02:30 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Oops. I liked it. I liked it a lot. But I only intended to say so once. -- Sophist, 12:29:20 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Spoilers for All Seasons of Buffy to 'Hell's Bells.' A 'ST' -- Age, 22:36:58 03/08/02 Fri

Yes, I think that the justice demons are not simply the workings of karma(if such a cosmic mechanism exists.) These people are attached to a certain way of dealing with emotional injury caused by another, a way that involves reacting with aggression and anger. But the ripening of karma certainly is common to both of the eps as you point out, Caroline, and whether karma really exists Whedon can use it as a supernatural metaphor in a fictional series to represent the idea of our being connected with one another; he can use it to portray at least the global idea that what we do in society will affect others, and in turn their reaction (the vengeance demons as supernatural metaphor portray this) will come back to affect us in turn. Without the need to believe in the religious aspect of buddhism, the simple truth of our being connected, our being in a society, is buddhist.

And I think this is what Whedon is doing, and it certainly has influenced my view of buddhism. While he is using karma to some extent and has distributed prominently buddhist icons through both his series, Whedon is stripping buddhism of its religious content in order to present his own themes. And in doing that however he's gotten to the essense of buddhism itself. Buddhism isn't about buddhism at all. It's about taking responsibility for oneself and having a practice to do such a thing. The rest of buddhism is simply something one can either verify or throw out depending on ones experience. But this is what Whedon is portraying in Willow's addiction, Xander's internalized abusive pattern and Buffy's need to find a way of finding the source of herself. The management of ourselves requires the daily taking of responsibility and effort. The Sunnydale way of dealing with life and suffering is to do the opposite and deny the existence of what the metaphors of Sunnydale represent. It is the dualistic way of dealing with life but a dualism that's in bad faith even with itself: it uses dualism to separate the problem and bury it in the subconscious until its undead life gains enough power to cause the conscious mind enough anxiety that it will have to deal with it as an enemy. But the very dualistic way of thinking used to separate the problem and bury it is denied itself as the conscious mind chooses to believe that the problem doesn't exist: all is just Sunny(of the conscious mind) in Sunny/dale. It is denial about denial. Buddhism as Whedon has figured out is about awareness.

And that brings us back to Hell's Bells. Xander hears the ringing, just as Buffy was bid to wake up from her sleeping in 'OMWF' through the bell of the alarm clock. He became aware of something he may have as a pattern, as Willow has become aware of an addictive nature. They have all been sleep walking through aspects of their life because to do otherwise was made too painful for them through the shaming of judgement. But, these young adults are taking responsibility for themselves. Xander's internalized pattern of abuse won't be uprooted in some quick fix therapy session or through simple analysis, it is something he will have to live with and manage. Willow's addictive nature isn't something she can take a holiday from; it is something she takes with her and must manage each day. Buffy herself seems to have internalized patriarchal ideas about how to define herself. This is something she'll have to become aware of and manage.

One last comment to Caroline. I find it ironic that in recent postings my comments have been almost arguing against your patriarchal reading of Buffy and Riley(I was really trying to find a balance between the patriarchal content and the temporary help that Buffy and the Scoobies were given, help perhaps that might set Buffy back, but may have been needed.) For a year now on this board and previously on another, my postings have nearly always contained something about the patriarchal theme of the series. It's only recently that they have drifted away from that and become more buddhist in content as the buddhist icons gained more prominence.

In the thread I replied to from earlier in the week now in the archive, another poster made a good point about Buffy's not seeing Buffy when she looks in the mirror. Buffy went from lollypop sucking valley girl persona to Chosen One fighting vampires, experienced the disintegration of her parents' marriage and their divorce, had her first sexual encounter with a patriarchal male of the worst kind, and is still scarred from that, had to face the end of her relationship with her father and the death of her mother, was forced to rearrange her view of homelife though the introduction of a sister, then had to get on with adult responsibilities and leave university. Buffy hasn't had the time or the emotional space to define herself. There is a societal component to this also as the definition of women and men has changed over the last thirty years. It seems that Buffy, rather than being a renaissance woman(yet), is more a cusp figure, one who has internalized patriarchal ideas, but also has her identity defined by the new power that women have attained for themselves in society. This is why back in November I did a posting about the danger of women now using power to mask their problems, adopting the established patriarchal model as their own. That was before Willow's problem with power became an addiction problem.


[> [> [> [> War on Terrorism & Vengeance Demons -- withheld, 08:07:44 03/09/02 Sat

I may be opening a really large can of worms here but I was thinking back to OaFA when Halfrek tells Tara that Vengeance demons prefer the more politically correct term, Justice demons. Then in Hell's Bells, we have the OlderXander demon who comes to terrorise Anya on her wedding day as payback for Anyanka ruining his life centuries ago (and supposedly turning him into a demon).

Before I go any further, I want to state that I truly believe September 11 was a horrific tragedy and that I have incredible sympathy for those who lost loved ones in the terrorist attacks. But I can't help but wonder if there isn't a parallel between the U.S./Middle East conflict and Anya & OlderXander. The U.S. helped create the "demon" of the Middle East (perhaps inadvertantly, but they still had a hand in it) and now are feeling the fallout. BTW, I am *not* in any way, shape, or form, calling Muslims or Middle Easterners demons or evil. I'm simply drawing the comparison that Anya had for 1000 years exacted vengeance/justice on the world, not of her own free will perhaps, but as an agent of karma or at least human direction (Dawn locking everyone in the house in OaFA). Now Anya is feeling a lashback from the people she has hurt in the past. Now I don't know whether she deserves it because as far as we can tell, every man she's ever cursed did in fact betray a woman (i.e. Xander with Cordelia). (But I certainly don't believe the U.S. deserved being attacked.)

The OlderXander demon has come for revenge on Anya. She may or may not deserve it, Xander definitely doesn't deserve it, but it happens anyway. Halfrek calls herself a Justice demon, but is she really? Is it really justice she is exacting or plain old vengeance? And whether or not Anya was justified in cursing OlderXander, does she deserve to be punished now? Or does she need to suffer in order to redeem herself? Perhaps Anya, like the parties on either side of the 9-11 conflict, has to take responsibility for those she's injured. What she needs is to deal with the fact that the past *always* comes back to haunt you. Especially if you're immortal or used to be. Just ask any Highlander fan.

The question is how does she deal with it? Does she return to vengeance? Is it a matter of destroying the one who caused the conflict? Certainly Xander would agree with this since he helped Buffy stomp that demon into the ground (and more power to him, I say). But Anya's situation is that if she does accept her powers back, who is she supposed to take vengeance on? There was another thread dealing with this... Should she blame Xander? He only walked away to protect her (because he had succumbed to his fears about himself, but that's another topic). Should she blame Xander's parents? Or will she blame herself?

I welcome people's responses. If you feel this topic is too inflammatory, or if you think I've been disrespectful in any way, I willingly withdraw this post.

[> [> [> [> Patriachal symbols losing power in season 6 - in more way than one -- Caroline, 12:04:58 03/09/02 Sat

Age, I really do believe that we are in agreement here. I think that you are completely right about Buffy. My posts about Buffy and Riley have always expressed the view that Riley represents some kind of patriarchal idea that she has internalized. That being the case, it leaves little room for self- knowledge on Buffy's part. She has a very dual identity - slayer and adolescent. As a slayer she is powerful in a traditional patriarchal way, as an adolescent she has internalized society's views of herself as a female, particularly in matters of sexuality and 'female' power. There has always been that tension from season 1 but it's only when unconscious promptings about her identity as a woman emerge that the duality is challenged and she struggles to integrate them. I think that's also why I've been thinking much more about myths that involve transformation of some kind - e.g. the Persephone/Hades myth - because that is so much more relevant to this season.

I also have been thinking much more about karma and duality and much less about patriarchy than I was in seasons 4 and 5, precisely because a lot of the symbolism on the show has shifted. We've had a brief return to patriarchal themes with Riley's return but this season I think we've moved beyond that and to a more personal symbolism in season 6. While I still maintain that there one can do a very credible patriarchal interpretation of Riley's return (this has been thrashed out earlier and I agree was a mixed blessing) the power of the patriarchal symbols will, IMO, lose their power as the scoobies and Buffy move beyond external and internalized expectations to greater self-knowledge through and exploration of unconscious patterns. That takes awareness - the absence of denial. I think one of the things Joss Whedon is trying to say in season 6 is know yourself, don't let anyone else define you. This is an integral part of the growing up theme. Part of knowing yourself is understanding the consequences of your actions and accepting responsibility. So we've moved from the societal stage to the more personal stage.

[> [> [> hijacked karma -- anom, 19:43:57 03/09/02 Sat

"And hopefully there will be a lot of soul-searching for her [Anya] in terms of her vengeance demon identity and actions. D'Hoffryn, Halfrek and co. are being presented to us not as evil demons but as neutral agents of karma. But are they really?"

That's a good question. I don't think they're neutral. I'm no expert on Buddhism, but as I understand it the karmic wheels turn by themselves--the consequences of our actions naturally come back to us. Vengeance demons, however, being demons, have their own agenda & advance it by taking advantage of humans at their most hurt & angry to magnify the effects of "bad" karma. Anya much preferred the Sunnydale that resulted from Cordelia's wish. D'Hoffryn offered to make Willow a vengeance demon because he saw the destruction she was inadvertently wreaking. He would have loved to see her go on to do more of the same for thousands of years. Even Halfrek, though she put a PC face on her spell, didn't care that the child whose need called out to her would never be able to leave her house & have a life, even if everyone in it resolved their issues, & might even starve with the others when the food ran out. What kind of justice is that? Demon "justice." It's more concerned with adding to the chaos than with keeping things in balance. In fact, it's about tipping that balance to the evil side.

"So demons are becoming more shaded in BtVS but can there really be a reconciliation of their values with human values? How will Anya reconcile her past actions and their consequences?"

Anya must feel pulled in several different directions. Having learned to be open to love & happiness, she is also open to pain. I have the impression she wasn't open to any of these even before her demon days. Vengeance isn't a way to deal with pain, it's a distraction from it. The human-level vengeance spells the original Anyanka used must have made her feel she had some power at a time of great vulnerability. When she was offered even more power, she went for it. Now, though, she looks much more hurt than angry. Part of her may want vengeance on Xander, but she also still loves him & doesn't want to see him hurt. She may even realize how much he's already hurting. Besides, now she's been on the receiving end of vengeance, having to take what she dished out for so long. Maybe opening up to her own feelings makes her able to identify with the people she hurt as a vengeance demon, & maybe she actually doesn't want to put anyone through that anymore.

vengeance against whom? -- skeeve, 13:15:16 03/07/02 Thu

Supposing that Anya gets her powers back, whom do you suppose will be her next victim? The one at whom she is probably most mad is dead. I think that she is not mad at Xander. That leaves his father as the most likely prospect. Somehow I think that vengeance against him wouldn't be all that satisfying, even in anticipation.

The foregoing is one reason that I think Anya won't take her old job back. The other is that Xander won't marry a vengeance demon.

[> Buffy -- Charlemagne20, 13:45:49 03/07/02 Thu

Buffy ruined Anya's life
Buffy seduced Xander away from her
Buffy took her powers away from her
Buffy convinced Xander his life with her wasn't good enough


[> [> Buffy did not seduce Xander, nor has she ever... -- Apophis, 14:11:17 03/07/02 Thu

...except for that one time she did... and that other time...

[> [> You're kidding, right? -- Wisewoman, 14:28:57 03/07/02 Thu

Or have you been watching an alternate dimension version of BtVS?

[> [> [> Re: You're kidding, right? -- Malandanza, 10:06:11 03/08/02 Fri

I think Charlemagne is speaking from Anya's perspective -- not that Buffy ruined her life, but that Anya believes it to be the case -- much as Cordelia blamed Buffy for the Willow/Xander affair. However, I do not believe that Anya will blame Buffy. Outside of Xander, Buffy seems to be the person Anya is closest to. If she blames anyone, it will be Willow.

And not without reason. Willow has never been happy with the X/A pairing (although she hasn't come right out and said so -- she snipes at the couple every chance she gets). Maybe she's "gay now" and doesn't want Xander, but it doesn't mean she wants anyone else to have him. We have seen Anya "allowing" Buffy and Xander to dance together (in expectation of a big karmic reward) but can you imagine her being comfortable with Willow and Xander dancing together? Especially since, in her role as a vengeance demon, she knows all about the Xander/Willow Lovers Walk history. A typical Willow remark was "for the rest of your life" when Xander complains about having to listen to Anya's capitalist rants on a daily basis.

More of a concern to me is why Buffy didn't make sure she was with Anya after the fiasco -- why leave her alone (even if it was what Anya wanted) with no one to console her but a group of vengeance demons?

So how would Anyanka go after Willow to get vengeance? My guess would be through Tara.

[> [> [> [> Re: You're kidding, right? -- wiscoboy, 14:11:30 03/08/02 Fri

I think your premise for the Anya vengence vs. Willow is flawed due to the fact that Anya & Willow made their peace in the Troll episode. Next week's ep may be the result of an Anya vengence wish. My hope is that she ends the curse with her & Xander at the place before all last week's hell broke the beginning of the wedding ceremony(she would then be able to stop the meddling demon).

[> [> Re: Buffy -- Rob, 16:50:56 03/07/02 Thu

Um...Giles took away Anya's powers, not Buffy.

And...Buffy didn't only not ruin Xander and Anya's relationship, but is actually one of Xander's inspirations for telling Anya he was in love with Anya (in "Into the Woods").

And Xander did not leave Anya because she wasn't the right woman for him. He left because she was, and he worried that he would end up abusing her.


[> [> [> Re: Buffy -- Philistine, 17:51:31 03/07/02 Thu

Anya knows the first one (she may be the only person in the "real" Slayerverse who does), but does she know about the other two? I can just see the following scene tacked onto the end of ItW:

A: "Why are you telling me this now?"
X: "Well, I just had a long talk with Buffy, and..."

I also don't think she really understands what it was Xander was afraid of - WE saw him look past her to where his parents were squabbling, but did she? And would she have gotten it even if she had?

Give Xander and Buffy a chance... -- Charlemagne20, 13:54:17 03/07/02 Thu

In 6 seasons they have consistantly had Buffy overlook Xander's devotion to the Summer's chickeyboo and I for one would like Buffy to look at the X-man for once as a person who is actually wonderful and fun to be with. I find it difficult to believe among all the undead and even reprehensible people that Buffy has dated she never considered Xander even once in her entire career. While I doubt Xander is at present appropriate for her I think that come Season 7 it would be a very good idea to explore the possibilities of these two.

[> My mom thinks the same thing. -- bienbizare, 14:12:48 03/07/02 Thu

Hee hee. My mom when watching AYW (she's a sometime Buffy watcher, not obsessed like me) said, "I think Buffy should be with a nice guy like Xander, not Spike,"

I'm kind of neutral on the whole subject. Wondering where the Spike thing is going or not, and if Buffy has any sort of promising romantic future.

There's a part of me that thinks Buff and Xands would be good together, in a Monica and Chandler kind of way. Buffy has always just thought of him as a friend though, and something big big big would have to happen for that to change.

By the way, that comment of my mom's could just be a little way for her to give a message to me. No evil vampires Jessie, just nice boys. See the messages she can send me just by discussing Buffy w/ me? Sneeky lady :)

[> [> Yeah, but... -- King of Wands, 14:29:33 03/07/02 Thu

Your message contains the reason why it's a really bad idea:

"...Buff and Xands would be good together, in a Monica and Chandler kind of way..."

The B/X pairing would be all white bread and stale doughnuts. If it happened everybody would expect it to be the "real thing", but things aren't as simple in the Buffy universe as they are in the Crayola world of Friends. Nor are they supposed to be.

Xander is a "good guy" and he's complicated enough in his way, but Buffy is much more intense and ferocious than Xander could handle or would be right for him. She'd pull him apart.

Plus, it's too simple and obvious an answer. It reeks of bad melodrama, the type where everyone ends up with the "right" person in the end. "Oh look, even little Willow is a lesbian and no longer has intense sexual and romantic longing clearing the way for Buffy..."

The moment Buffy becomes this type of 32 flavors of vanilla tv show, we're all going to tune out...

[> [> [> Re: Yeah, but... -- Jimbo, 17:42:40 03/07/02 Thu

"Plus, it's too simple and obvious an answer. It reeks of bad melodrama, the type where everyone ends up with the "right" person in the end. "Oh look, even little Willow is a lesbian and no longer has intense sexual and romantic longing clearing the way for Buffy...""

I've got it!!

A three-way B/X/W relationship!

[> [> [> [> Now, you're onto something... -- Knight of Wands, 07:13:31 03/08/02 Fri

[> Re: Give Xander and Buffy a chance... -- Apophis, 15:20:10 03/07/02 Thu

Far be it for me to come down on 'shippers, but I think there comes a time when one must give up the ghost. The Xander/Buffy thing hasn't been an issue since the end of season 2. Neither character has shown any indication of romantic intentions toward the other in years (on Buffy's part, the only time she's shown any interest in Xander has been when she wasn't in her right mind). Xander's "get lucky" comment was a joke, not an actual invitation. If Buffy and Xander ever get together on the show, I will write a check for one million dollars to every person on this board.

[> Do you mean the same Xander who -- Sophist, 17:01:41 03/07/02 Thu

lied to her in order to kill the love of her life in Becoming II?

sees the world in black and white terms, while Buffy can make nice moral distinctions like in Becoming I and Revelations?

is judgmental and accusatory on the basis of his moral blindness in Dead Man's Party?

forgives himself for magic spells that cause heartache (B,B &B) and death (OMWF), but judges Willow harshly for magic use (Gone)?

harbors deep-seated feelings of insecurity about his own adequacy even more than Riley, the guy Buffy couldn't connect with?

I'm out of time and have to go, but others can add to this list.

[> [> Re: Do you mean the same Xander who -- JBone, 19:04:10 03/07/02 Thu

You know Sophist, I don't think we could agree the color of the sky. But as Bobby Frost said, "Thinking isn't agreeing or disagreeing. That's voting."

lied to her in order to kill the love of her life in Becoming II?

I believe you mean when he spared her a emotional wrestling match when she had to be ready for the fight of her life.

sees the world in black and white terms, while Buffy can make nice moral distinctions like in Becoming I and Revelations?

I always saw this as offering Buffy a perspective. Moral distintions are what those who have power decide. The rest of use argue and vote.

is judgmental and accusatory on the basis of his moral blindness in Dead Man's Party?

I'm with you on this one. God forbid someone other than Buffy or Spike start spouting off about what the world has done to them. The show would never end.

forgives himself for magic spells that cause heartache (B,B &B) and death (OMWF), but judges Willow harshly for magic use (Gone)?

Actually, I really am with you on this one. It's a MIRACLE!

harbors deep-seated feelings of insecurity about his own adequacy even more than Riley, the guy Buffy couldn't connect with?

Man, do I argue about Riley, Xander, or Buffy on this one? I believe Riley was the guy for Buffy, but Buffy wasn't the girl for Riley. Riley is clearly better off without Buffy, and Buffy the opposite. You should be better off being with the one you love than without. Ah, Xander, deep-seated insecurities can be one b*tch of a mother f*cker to overcome. Nevertheless, I've seen Xander making giant strides over the last 6+ years. There is still some backsliding here and there, but he has gained much more ground than he's given up. And if I'd had known I'd go on this long, I would have brought water. Beer will have to do.

[> [> [> Actually, I like your posts. They force me to sharpen my thinking. But -- Sophist, 20:44:56 03/07/02 Thu

the sky is still blue and I'm stickin' to that.

[> [> [> [> Except for during the night. Or is it??? -- JBone, 22:06:24 03/07/02 Thu

Read the "or is it" line with an overly suspicious tone. It's my little "Austin Powers" joke.

[> [> So, Is This How Joss Sees Himself? -- Rachel, 10:25:24 03/08/02 Fri

It's been remarked that Joss sees himself in Xander. That always leaves me wondering just how much I like Joss, then, because the character of Xander has always walked a fine line between being a decent guy and a real pain. Looking at it from JBone's perspective, I see the decent guy. And that's what I try to do because I want to like Xander. But right under the surface are feelings that Xander is not a good guy, that he's a needy individual who can wear one's patience thin.

[> [> [> Joss may have modeled the original character after himself, but the storyline has moved beyond that -- Sophist, 10:53:16 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> Xander & Buffy, I'm thinking not -- Kevin, 13:06:34 03/08/02 Fri

I can't remember there ever being any chemistry between Xander and Buffy. He's her friend, she depends on him, they're devoted to each other like family...but like xero chemistry. Even early on when he asked her for a date, she flat out said that she didn't feel that way about him, and she never has shown any change in her feelings.

And I agree that Xander is too black and white (annoyingly so, even when Spike is saving his life). Humans (and ex-demons) good, Vampires evil. That outlook seems to work for him, but it's not going to work for the increasingly shades of grey outlook on her world that Buffy has developed.

I'm not saying Xander's not a great guy in his way, but definitely in the brother catagory. In a relationship you need passion and desire. Just head stuff doesn't cut it. If you have to sit around and think about all of the reasons why someone would be good for you, but you're not feeling it, it's not going to happen - they're not the right one. I always like that line by Spike in Lover's Walk "Love isn't brains children, it's blood. Blood screaming out inside of you to work it's will"...or something very close to that. I think that's the essence of Buffy's attraction to both Angel and Spike. She comes up with a hundred head reasons why they're wrong for her, but her heart says otherwise.

[> Re: Give Xander and Buffy a chance... -- Eric, 19:31:30 03/07/02 Thu

I don't think Xander is all that bad a choice for Buffy. But in there are some serious indications in the storyline that his place in the Buffyverse is as a brother (occasionally big, very often little).

Beating the drug metaphor to death, but... (Spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- Amkath, 14:38:16 03/07/02 Thu

Watching Angel's behavior the first part of "Sleep Tight" I found myself thinking that he almost seemed high, especially the overly hyper and cheerful mood he was in. Later in the episode we find out that his pig's blood has been spiked with human blood (and a very small amount of human blood at that). It seems that everyone blames his erratic and aggressive behavior on this.

If drinking human blood changes how a vampire acts, wouldn't it be considered a drug for them? Following this train of thought, I started thinking about Spike. Since the Initiative put the chip in his head, he has (presumably) also beeen drinking pig's blood. His behavior right after he escaped could almost be seen as withdrawal from human blood - he was depressed and weak. He still behaves in an evil way for a long time, but gradually we see a gentler side of him emerge. He even begins acting like William again (as a love sick whipping boy). Could these changes be the result of the "drug" (human blood) being removed from his system?

Perhaps overly simplistic, but if drinking human blood changes Angel's behavior, why not Spike's?

[> Re: Beating the drug metaphor to death, but... (Spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- Vickie, 16:46:17 03/07/02 Thu

Great point! It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a psychological element to the thrill of human blood.

I'd always assumed that the human blood jones had to do with hunting and consuming a sentient (or more sentient, or more like the vampire sentient) being as opposed to a "lower" animal. That the vampire enjoyed the prey's fear and enjoyed stalking (or in Dracula's case, mesmerizing) them.

But, in ST, Angel gets more violent simply from consuming Connor's blood, without knowledge of the fact and without harm (relatively speaking) to Connor.

I think that human blood would change Spike's behavior. I guess we should be glad that it hasn't occurred to him yet.

[> [> Re: Beating the drug metaphor to death, but... (Spoilers for Sleep Tight) -- tost, 17:07:17 03/07/02 Thu

Spike seemed to have blood in medical sacks, which would seem to be human, in Giles fridge. On the other hand i'm reminded that Angel got a bag of human blood the same ep that he turned evil.

[> I respectfully disagree ... -- Earl Allison, 02:20:10 03/08/02 Fri

Excellent post, and by itself, it would explain a lot, but it tends to fly in the face of what we've seen before with Angel and human blood. I just can't see human blood as a "drug" to them, maybe more tasty (check vamp-Harmony's reaction to pig's blood in "Disharmony."), but not a drug -- past experiences with Angel don't bear that out IIRC.

We saw no such behavior after Angel drank Slayer blood in "Graduation Day." Admittedly, he was fighting off a serious vampire poison at the time, but we still didn't see the kind of elation one would conclude from a drug. And this was SLAYER blood besides, an aphrodesiac according to Spike!

Ditto again once Angel fed off Kate Lockley. He drained her, and it WAS pointed out by Wesley as a Bad Thing, but nothing came of it. Nothing even close to the reactions from "Sleep Tight," even with the insanity issues of the Shroud.

We also saw Angel drinking what almost HAD to be human blood the first time he came to the Hyperion in the Fifties -- I doubt animal blood came in those medical bottles back then :) And he was pretty meek overall in that flashback.

I guess what I'm saying here is, either there was more in the pig's blood besides Connor's blood (which I would have expected Wesley to find, but since Fred was looking, she might well have missed something, she's not the expert Wes is), Connor's blood ISN'T entirely human (and maybe has mystical qualities), or the writers simply screwed up again, throwing continuity to the wind ...

Take it and run.

Xander, Restless, and OAFA ( spoilers up to OAFA) -- Alvin, 15:34:23 03/07/02 Thu

I've been lurking here for a while and have slowing become addicted to all the great posts here, and have finally decided to throw out one of my own to see if anyone else thinks this: Will Xander die at the of this season?

I ask this because elements of Restless keep popping into season 6. For instance, in Tabula Rosa we had Giles and Spike as father/son ( Spike is like a son to me ) and a villain that's part shark (Like a shark...with legs...and on land). So will other elements from Restless also show such as all the signs linking Xander to death? Especially since there is something in each dream about him.

In Willow's dream while Buffy is in her anti-man rant (Men, with your urges....) Xander is lying behind her while Harmony kneels beside him crying. In Xander's own dream he's told that the line ends with him while in Giles' dream Xander makes the comment that he wanted to be there for Anya on her big day, but instead it looks like he'll be pushing up daisies instead. Finally, in Buffy's dream Xander shows up walking away from Buffy while she's talking to her mother who's in the wall. I won't go into about the wall foretelling Joyce's death, but it seems odd that of all the Scoobies, only Xander is also in this scene. Also, as in Willow's dream there's no conversation involving him or about him; he's just there in the background.

And now to jump from Restless to OAFA. I read with interest when the episode aired how posters here talked about who the party guests brought was more important than what presents they brought. That Buffy brought Sophie (Wisdom) while Spike brought Clem (Mercy) but Xander bringing Richard tended to get glossed over.

While I can see how the peoples's names have meaning, I saw who they brought as an extension of themselves. Spike brings Clem who is obviously a demon, but once you get to know him turns out to be a real swell guy. Clem moved through the party being pleasant but basically being uninvolved sort of like how Spike is sort of a Scoobie but kept on the fringe of the group. Buffy brings Sophie who appears to be a normal girl, but who has a long list of foods she can't have which shows she actually is quite fragile. It's interesting that Sophie's only scene by herself is of her looking out the window, crying because she wants to go outside but can't. It's sort of like Buffy looking at her old life, wanting it back, but unable to move back into it.

And Xander brings Richard. It's been talked about earlier on the board that Richard has a red shirt, that he's expendable, that of course the demon went for him. I think it's interesting that Richard is even more linked to Xander than Buffy and Spike are linked to Sophie and Clem.

It's hard to think of Richard without thinking of Xander. He works with Xander; he and Xander are the only fully human men there; on first meeting Buffy he's attracted to her like Xander was( I admit Xander and Anya talked about Buffy to him, but he was still interested in her); and only Xander and Richard are wounded by the demon.

Richard has two scenes where he quietly stands still while violence is offered his way. The first is when Spike is talking about eating him. Richard may not understand what Spike is talking about, but the end result is that he passively stands there while Spike talks of killing him.

The second time of course is when the sword demon attacks. Everyone scatters, but Richard stays passively in place. He doesn't fight, doesn't run, only stands there like a lamb being slaughtered or like a sacrifice.

Which brings me back to Restless where Synder tells Xander he's a whipping boy and a sacrifice. So I ask "Does anyone else think Xander will die in this season?" What got me thinking this was a previous post called "Once more with Joss" where the poster said that OMWF implies that the season will take an unexpected turn. To me the unexpected turn will involve Xander. And if Xander dies, how will it happen? For that I go back to OAFA where Anya says of Richard that if he dies, it's partly her fault.

[> Re: Xander, Restless, and OAFA ( spoilers up to OAFA) -- Jon, 16:49:52 03/07/02 Thu

All I can say is I sure hope not. That would be utterly heart-breaking. Thanks for the breakdown of the Restless connections. I'm chilled.

How does this idea go with that great "Once More with Joss" post - the theory that the musical suggests the arc of the whole season? There is the great mystery as to why Xander was the one who invoked Sweet. And here's what Sweet says when Xander asks if he'll have to be Sweet's "Queen": "It's tempting... but I think we'll waive that clause just this

That's not particularly helpful I guess - unless there's a reason Xander would find himself in trouble with Sweet a second time.

So obviously I don't know, but I sure hope not. Of course it is one event that would be certain to shake everybody else out of their solipsistic states. Including me, I imagine.


[> [> Re: Xander, Restless, and OAFA ( spoilers up to OAFA) -- Alvin, 18:23:04 03/07/02 Thu

To my shame, I forgot that Xander invoked Sweet, and I have no idea as to why him. On Sweet coming back I will point out when Buffy comes in to her house and sees Xander and Dawn dancing to practice for the wedding, Buffy says "Dancing? Are we dancing again?"

In regards to the "Once more with Joss" post, Cynesthesia points out at the end of the post that Sweet tells us rough times are ahead. ("there's not a one who can say this ended well") while it's alcibiades in a reply who says that the season is going to veer at the end. (My bad, I didn't distinguish between the original post and the replies)

[> [> Or -- The Hanged Man, 08:56:12 03/08/02 Fri

I think maybe what's more germane to your point is the fact that Xander is given an invite to the underworld...

[> Re: Xander, Restless, and OAFA ( spoilers up to OAFA) -- Veronica, 19:54:07 03/07/02 Thu

You've made some really good connections and observations in your post regarding Restless...I just saw that episode again recently and was thinking that there were many loose ends, especially with Xander. I really don't want him to die, though. I think his character has really developed and grown since Season 1.

[> Re: Xander, Restless, and OAFA ( spoilers up to OAFA) -- Etrangere, 06:04:13 03/08/02 Fri

Yeah, I'm one of the people who thinks Xander gonna die and probably turned into a vampire :)
The point Jon made about Xander having summoned Sweet and thus being supposed to come to hell with him is also very good. You made a good point about Richard's role also.
About Xander walking in the back of Buffy in Restless, it's interresting to note two people's been walking up a stair in Restless : Buffy, Joyce, Xander. Two of those has already died.
And the stair was again used as a symbole of walking up in heavens in the Gift, and down from it in Afterlife.

[> Note to delurkers -- Darby, 07:50:18 03/08/02 Fri

Alvin, you've been getting good responses here, but I just wanted to point out something to those still lurking and hesitant to step out. I'm not absolutely sure that what I'm about to say is the truth, but it's how I feel.

Sometimes, someone puts something up that is just so incredible that, after picking my jaw up off the keyboard, I realize that I just can't add to substantively. I will only occasionally acknowledge that fact with a response (others on the board are better at praising than I, for sure). Alvin, yours was one of those, and there have been some others recently, and I just wanted to say that you shouldn't assume that a short list of responses in any way indicates a lack of interest.

If you stay tuned, you'll notice that the good ideas percolate in the other posters' heads and re- emerge as a new inspiration that is uniquely theirs - is it safe to say that recent discussion of Restless here led you back to it, where you found these intriguing insights? The really good posts here always get my head slithering toward new ideas.

Of course, this could all be a massive rationalization I've invented for when my posts get meager response...

[> [> You're absolutely right, Darby. Sometimes there's nothing to say but... -- Solitude1056, 07:57:11 03/08/02 Fri

could you do that essay in html & put it up on the (non)fictionary pages with the other essays? it belongs there!


[> [> Re: Note to delurkers -- Teri, 12:45:05 03/08/02 Fri

Yup this was definately a jaw dropper...

Hate that. You're like reading it then it's like..Oh..OH! Omg..! OMG! He's so right..BUT..OHHH OH no!! PLEASE don't let him be right. But...but...

Hows that for a NON SUBSTANTIVE response.

Thanks Darby for giving me ground to at least air it..I feel better now!

[> [> Oh, I completely agree. -- yuri, 20:59:45 03/09/02 Sat

I (generally) respond to posts I can fully comprehend and build upon, not to ones that just blow me away.

[> Don't Scare Me Like That! Re: Xander, Restless, and OAFA ( spoilers up to OAFA) -- vandalia, 08:59:08 03/08/02 Fri

Though you do make good arguments... and it would also correlate to the Wesley=Xander arguments posted here earlier... and Joss has always said he's Xander if he's anyone and his touch has been absent from the show lately according to some people's opinions...

Say it ain't so, Joe!

[> I've noticed those connections, too... -- Belladonna, 09:06:06 03/08/02 Fri

I just watched Restless a couple weeks ago, and was worried about all the Xander dying references. I'm glad I'm not the only one! I do hope he doesn't die. I believe he's signed on for next season, so if he did, he'd have to be a vampire, or something. Personally, I hope they don't kill anyone this season. I've heard rumors that one of the Scoobies will die. I don't know if it's just a crazy rumor, or if it's true. But, I think it would be kind of...hmmm...for lack of a more intelligent word...dumb to kill someone else off. What, are they going to kill someone every season now?

[> For what its worth (kinda spoiler) -- Dochawk, 13:08:17 03/08/02 Fri

In an interview with AB, we are told the BSD (if there even is one) is not Xander. oh well.

[> [> Yes, I am begining to doubt the BSD is real myself, though I'm probably wrong (NT) -- Goji3, 15:45:15 03/09/02 Sat

Buffy glowing? Spoilers -- Ishkabibble, 16:13:37 03/07/02 Thu

I'm out of town, so not able to access the board often.

Has there been any speculation that Buffy might be pregnant and that is why she is glowing?

I see a debate that Connor is possibly going to grow up to be one of the other characters on Angel, and both baby and grown-up version are existing presently via time travel.

Could ME be doing another parallel? Could Dawn be the grown-up version of a baby that Buffy is carrying in utero?

Any discussions about this?

[> I sure hope not -- Vickie, 16:19:30 03/07/02 Thu

This may be a little too meta, but a pregnant slayer is just not the item. Way too dangerous for her and for the world. Can you imagine her fighting in a near-term condition?

If Buffy's smart (and she sure seems to be) she's had a Norplant or something similar. Why would she take that chance?

[> [> Re: I sure hope not/ Vamps can't have babies, Can they? (Angel notwithstanding) -- Dochawk, 16:49:40 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> Riley could -- Vickie, 16:55:57 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> That would mean the baby had been gestating for over a year. -- Apophis, 19:18:08 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Well, the death and decomposition would seriously affect the gestation period -- d'Herblay, 20:11:42 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> That's just...ewwww! And can I say again, ewwwww! -- LadyStarlight, 20:21:13 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd like to second that...and add a "Blech!" and a "That really gave me the wiggins!" -- Rob, 21:34:45 03/07/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Riley could -- Wiccagrrl, 19:21:24 03/07/02 Thu

Yes, but when she was with Riley, they used protection ;) And besides, that was well over a year ago. I think it's safe to say nothing that could have gotten Buffy pregnant happened between her and Riley in AYW.

I've heard the theory that Buffy could be pregnant, and frankly I think it's pretty far fetched. Spike's comment was about her being happy for a change. Unless I missed something, the only person she's been with in a sexual way during the past year is Spike, and he can't get her pregnant. The Angel/Darla thing was a major exception to the rule, and I am doubtful they'd repeat the storyline with B/S. Plus, a pregnant Slayer? Logistically difficult to say the least. And in Buffy's current state, can you imagine her taking care of an infant? She can barely cope with her and Dawn, let alone a baby. So, no, I personally don't think there's any way she's pregnant.

[> I think it's a more simple explanation... -- Rob, 21:48:15 03/07/02 Thu

Buffy had said this episode that Xander and Anya were her symbol of hope for the future. And she pointed out the fact that Xander was glowing. He said because he was happy.

Their happiness lead Buffy to be extremely happy, more happy than she's been in months.

And thus, when Spike mentions she is glowing, it is out of her happiness for Xander and Anya, which she is owning as her own happiness as well. Like someone taking on sympathy pains (sorry, I know that's a bad example), Buffy feels so happy for her friends that she's taking on some of their

And I think that's all the explanation that's needed...Xander and Anya happy, Xander and Anya glow, Buffy happy for Xander and Anya, Buffy glows. It's just like math or something!


[> [> Re: I think it's a more simple explanation... -- beekeepr, 23:33:03 03/07/02 Thu

rob, dear-i thought we weren't going to use the m word...

[> [> [> Oh, my God, I did say the "m" word! Aliens must've sucked up my brain! What can I do to repent? -- Rob, 07:53:48 03/08/02 Fri

[> Effulgence -- Anne, 04:16:02 03/08/02 Fri

Also might be worth noting that "glow" is more or less a synonym for "effulgence". So this line can also be taken as an echo. And while Spike obviously has a long way to go in the field of love, he at least got a better reaction from this compliment than he did from Cecily with his "effulgence" poem.

[> Re: Buffy glowing? Spoilers -- Etrangere, 06:10:06 03/08/02 Fri

As I said in another thread, there's definitly been a number of "birth" symboles recently (eggs, cow, and the glow)
I don't think we should take that litteraly to mean that Buffy's pregnant, 'cause, been there, done that and Dawn's already playing the role of children responsability.
So I think it's a metaphore for something. Maybe it's simply a symbole of Buffy finally coming totally back to life after her death. Maybe it's something else. But, please !, no babies in BtVS :)

[> Re: Buffy glowing? Spoilers -- Etrangere, 06:15:12 03/08/02 Fri

As I said in another thread, there's definitly been a number of "birth" symboles recently (eggs, cow, and the glow)
I don't think we should take that litteraly to mean that Buffy's pregnant, 'cause, been there, done that and Dawn's already playing the role of children responsability.
So I think it's a metaphore for something. Maybe it's simply a symbole of Buffy finally coming totally back to life after her death. Maybe it's something else. But, please !, no babies in BtVS :)

[> [> Sorry for the double posting -- Ete, 06:18:25 03/08/02 Fri

[> Re: Buffy glowing? Spoilers -- neaux, 06:43:58 03/08/02 Fri

Why cant the glowing just mean that Buffy is accepting of her new motherly role whether it be over Dawn or the rest of the scoobies.

She's glowing like a mother watching her Xander get married. Maybe She's is finally being the adult now.

[> Aren't we forgetting... (Spoiler) -- Darby, 07:59:29 03/08/02 Fri

The "The dress is radioactive" response?

Hey, when you get a punchline that good, who cares about the implications of the set-up?

But I gotta say, love the symmetry of "glowing" and "effulgence." Thanks, Anne. Spikey's really gotten unpretentious, but William's boppin' around in there somewhere. Let's just hope he's not rhyming with events from Gone...

[> [> Let's see.... -- Sophist, 08:17:20 03/08/02 Fri

indulgence rhymes. And I guess "glowing" does with.......

OT: James Marsters 4.20.02 show info and 14 Below site launch -- Liq, 02:18:04 03/08/02 Fri

Tickets for JM's upcoming performance on 4.20.02 at 14 Below in Santa Monica, CA will be going on sale tomorrow night at midnight (3.9) to coincide with the launch of the brand new 14 Below website featuring authorized video/audio of James Marsters' musical performance from 2.9.02 along with his new photo gallery. 14 Below is a 21 and older venue.

Coincidently, this new site, as well as another related site was designed by yours truly and has been a project I have been working on for about 6 months. Spending time with alot of great people from this project, including that blond guy friend of mine has been a serious chore, but hey, someone had to do it.

And speaking of friends.... I would have gone stark-raving mad several times if not for another of our own - Sheri. She has spent hours with me, squished among screaming fans for the perfect video and pictures; endured long hours while I was hob-nobbing with the client; more hours proof-reading and beta testing all of the programs on this very extensive site. She has given me moral support when I was freaking about deadlines and much needed company while I was in Los Angeles. I can't thank her enough.

So, if you want tickets to see James on 4.20.02, be sure to visit at midnight 3.9 (Friday night) because tickets are extremely limited and expect to sell out within a couple of days. The ticket also include's Adam Busch's (Warren) band Common Rotation, Four Star Mary and Urban Family Dog. Surprise guests are always a possibility.

If you just want to see some unique JM pics and hear him sing be sure to visit soon. I'll be adding new video clips weekly. Please email me offline if you have any specific OT questions.

[> Re: OT: Blushing -- Liq's Loyal Minion, 02:31:01 03/08/02 Fri

Thanks for the love fest, liq :)

--Sheri, who just loves feeling all warm and fuzzy.

[> Re: OT: James Marsters 4.20.02 show info and 14 Below site launch -- Cynthia, 04:02:46 03/08/02 Fri

Well, congradulations on a job well done.

How was it working with JM? Or am I wrong in reading that he had a hand in content etc.?

May your latest accomplishment lead to more work and satisfaction.

[> [> ... just wait til you see the site! -- Liq, 04:31:27 03/08/02 Fri

Thanks Cynthia!

James has personally authorized the video and audio content in the new gallery. And yep, he's a sweetheart.

[> that's midnight PST ... -- Liq, 04:22:40 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> Or 2afriggenm Texas time...But thanks for the heads up Liq! -- Teri, 11:48:05 03/08/02 Fri

[> Re: Sheri the Wonder Minion -- LadyStarlight, 14:28:00 03/08/02 Fri

Sheri, you've worked really hard, so congratulations to you. (And of course to Liq. :))

[> Re: OT: James Marsters 4.20.02 show info and 14 Below site launch -- Dochawk, 00:41:46 03/09/02 Sat

Great Job on the site. Looks and feels wonderful

[> [> Re: OT: Yippie! -- Liq's Tired Minion, 00:48:52 03/09/02 Sat

The site is up at last! It was great fun helping Liq beta test that thing... and man am I exhausted! Looking forward to going to bed at a decent hour :)

[> Re: OT: James Marsters 4.20.02 show info and 14 Below site launch -- LeeAnn, 03:25:22 03/09/02 Sat

Great site, Liq. I can see all your hard work.
Just a question, I could only get two songs, Goodbye and Fire. Will the others be linked soon?

[> [> They are all linked... there was over 10,000 hits the 1st 1-1/2 hrs... -- Liq, 12:20:08 03/09/02 Sat

The Future of Buffy, Inc. (Mild Spoilers) -- Hauptman, 07:06:59 03/08/02 Fri

Good morning my friends. I got up much too early this morning, so I thought I would write a little about my feelings on the Buffy thing in general. I have to say that I am personally disappointed in this season, but I am very forgiving. While I will watch whatever the Buffy-folk put on the screen (can someone say "rabid fan"), I also kind of wish they would end the Buffy run.

Buffy Inc.:
Buffy is great, amazing, stunning and, even in it's current run, somewhat better than most of the stuff on t.v., BUT where we once had Josh to oversee and create, we now have a very creative fellow who is somewhat stretched out, spread thin. He is involved with Buffy, Angel, Giles' series, the comic book, doing rewrites (or writing) the Iron Man movie and I have heard talk of a Buffy cartoon. He has to delegate some of the duties that created the pace and passion we once loved wholeheartedly. Some thing has to give and I think this season is where it has become obvious. Joss is now the CEO of Buffy, Inc. Which I think is a good thing for us in general, but not so good for the Buffy show.

Shades of the X-Files:
Look at Fox's other hot series, the X-Files. That poor show was run into the ground by letting it go on much too long. 'Course, it's a different type of show and was carried by two talented and much loved actors. Buffy, I think, is a much more rich and useful universe. While the X-Files could not get along without one of the stars that made it a hit, and while it has failed to spawn a successful spin-off (i.e. The Lone Gunmen, Millenium) I think Buffy can do both. Angel is clearly a successful spin-off and has proven itself even in an atmosphere that prevents it getting a drama injection from the original series (in other words, it's good despite a lack of crossover fun and frolic).

The problem with Buffy, as I see it this fine morning, is that the characters have grown up, which I have heard was the premise for this season. While it has been interesting to see the Scoobies grow and change, there isn't much more for them to do dramatically. The dynamics we are familiar with have all changes. The kids have become the adults. They no longer have Giles, Joyce, the W.C. or even Principal Snyder to play off of. There is no one to rebel against. And the more they grow up, the more we ask the tough questions I see on this board all the time like "Is Willow paying rent at Buffy's house?" It was easier to accept that there was this group of kids running around saving the world when we were somewhat sure that there were adults taking care of them, buying them the fab clothes and putting food on the table. Now that the kids have to adopt these rolls for themselves, I find myself bored. It's good television, but nothing compared with having to kill your lover to save the world; merging your essence with three other people to save the world; or stabbing a former friend in the gut to get the blood to save your lover before fighting a giant snake thingy to save the world.

Crush Kill Destroy:
There is no bang this season. The violence is way down and, though I know I will be called bloodthirsty, I miss it. In fact, the show is just getting a bit too nice. Now instead of cheering a good slay we have to settle with marveling at how well, how mature Buffy and Spike (formerly sworn enemies) are getting along after breaking off whatever that was they had. Instead of a "big bad" we have the geeks from hell. I am sorry if I am not evolved enough to be totally entertained by the coy, knowing looks Tara and Willow share as they take cover during an inexplicable brawl between demons and humans (why the demons didn't wipe the floor with the humans I will never understand). As several of you folks have mentioned on the board, the attempt to be more "realistic" about the lives of our heroes come off as very unrealistic somehow because it's still the Buffyverse.

Worst of all, I feel like I am being made to wait for something to happen. And, even if the end of the season is spectacular, with all the verve, vigor, passion and pain I loved in previous seasons, I am still going to be a bit peeved about being made to wait. Yes there were great individual stories. "Once more with feeling" was a triumph, but I can't grip the few gems this season without holding the worthless bunch of rocks they come with. Am I alone here? Maybe I am just too much of the "Crush, Kill, Destroy!" camp.

The great thing about Buffy, Inc. is that it is unlimited. Like Star Trek, Buffy, or rather the Buffyverse, could go on forever. Even if they wiped out the entire cast--which would suck, but think of the drama-- they could be doing a new slayer show within a year. I mean, they would have to bump off Faith, too, but what the hey. It's not like we are seeing a whole lot of here now anyway. And, as next week's episode indicates, just because you die on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it doesn't mean you won't show up every now and then. We could have a different slayer every season. Edgier stories could be told in different locations with guest stars from the old series. Xander could be a watcher for example. Willow could be a big bad. Dawn a rogue demon hunter. All I am saying is that the potential is limitless and that this particular incarnation of the Slayers' saga may be nearing the end of its days. Opinions?

[> Re: The Future of Buffy, Inc. (Mild Spoilers) -- neaux, 07:42:57 03/08/02 Fri

I would be very sad if Buffy ended.

But If they continued the Buffyverse with a new series like they do with Star Trek, I would still tune in.

And speaking of The Lone Gunmen... hmmm could Buffy have an Evil Troika spinoff??

Where every week they plot to take over the world a la "Pinky and the Brain?"

[> Oh, Kick ASS! -- Knight of Swords, 09:30:16 03/08/02 Fri

I think you have a LOT of really good points. The season started off with a lot of momentum and right through Tabula Rasa I was hooked, but then it all fell apart for me with Smashed and though there have been some good stuff since then, not enough to make the difference.

But, really I think the problem is that previous to Season 6 a drama was hidden within an epic fantasy/action world, now elements of an action/fantasy are stuck within a drama.

Remember how jarring it was to watch the realistic tone of the The Body? Now that everything is more "realistic" it just feels fake. It shouldn't but it does.

And there are two other problems, one is that the plotlines are dragging out that in episode after episode we're stuck waiting for some sort of development. The other problem is that these same plotlines are, of all things, predictable. Of course, Buffy and Spike will break-up. Of course, Dawn will feel neglected and then receive more attention. Of course, Willow will hold the line on the dark magic.

And even if all these things break loose, and I think some of them will, haven't we been waiting too long?

Too much of the plot is generated from within the gang themselves. What happened to the Slayer who's "on the front lines of a nightly war?" She used to slay demons on sight, now she's too busy making cocktail chitchat?
What happened to "...only she can stand against the vampires and the demons..."

They should change that to "...only she can drink with the vampires and the demons..." Some clever person nicknamed her Buffy the Vampire Layer?

If the demons are acceptable companions then why has she been killing them? If demons people, to be invited to weddings and drink with at bars, then don't they have rights of some sort? Why is it ok for Xander to murder one at his wedding in front of other demons who clap at the murder? Huh?

I'm all for artistic freedom and the Buffy writers have always been artists, but "artistic freedom" and "breaking every rule you established for your world" are two different things. One is creative and iconoclastic, the other breaks down the necessary suspension of disbelief.

This year's theme was "Oh Grow Up." I hope next year's is "Oh, Kick ASS!."

[> [> Re: Oh, Kick ASS! -- luvthistle1, 12:51:46 03/08/02 Fri

why is it ok for Xander to kill a demon at his wedding?
Because all the demon are not the same. They are all not friends, or know each other. The demon that Xander killed was a uninvited guest, who was trying to kill Anya. All the demons there were friends and family of Anya. They clapped
when Xander killed that demon, because in doing so, he save "Anya's life.

[> Re: The Future of Buffy, Inc. (Mild Spoilers) -- Apophis, 09:58:31 03/08/02 Fri

I agree. Though I'm loathe to see any good show cancelled, it's better to end things on one's own terms than to be mercy killed by the network. Things have gotten too soap opera-y. There's not enought cool stuff happening. I've been missing season 3 for months now (my favorite season). I'd love to see BtVS make it an even 10 years, but not if we have to settle for exponentially decreasing quality.

[> disagree -- gds, 11:16:35 03/08/02 Fri

Some one has to say it, so I will. This season is different, but it is good. Last year many people were complaining about how the series wasn't worth watching anymore. They said that all the good stuff was on Angel. I don't hear anyone complain about last season anymore, but now they complain about this season the same as they did about the last one - although it may be a different group of people. Next year I suspect they'll be complaining that season 6 was great, but season 7 is crap.

One of the great things about both BtVS & AtS is that they evolve. They grow. The people grow. If they didn't we would see each season repeating the previous seasons because they couldn't go anywhere new. Growth is painful both to experience and too observe. This does mean that good shows are not always the most enjoyable shows - and vice versa. I enjoyed the high school Buffy, but I would be totaly turned off if 6 years later she was still acting like she was still in high school.

[> [> Re: disagree -- Page of Pentacles, 12:00:37 03/08/02 Fri

Ultimately, how we view this season will be dictated by the season's climax.

Yes, there were a whole bunch of filler episodes in the middle of Season 5––the giant serpent, the quellor demon––and I wasn't a fan of Into the Woods, but last season's Feb. sweeps contained The Body and I think everyone was too blown away to criticize after that, then the final 6 episodes were such a roller coaster....Well, you know the rest.

There's still room for that, but Hell's Bells certainly wasn't The Body...

[> forming the Secret Society of Season Six Supporters -- ponygirl, 12:48:16 03/08/02 Fri

Well, no, I'm not going to form a support group but Season 6 does seem to need some lovin! Sure it's not the red-headed step child of season 4, which I finally grew to love after it had hung around and annoyed me for so long. No season 6 is my black-clad friend down the street, the one I like to have drinks with until the wee hours of the morning, with old Cure records in the background, shaking my head over tales of woe and bad choices. Maybe we won't be taking it out on a picnic, but doesn't it make life so much more interesting and frustrating?

The one thing I will say about s6 is that I have never found it boring. I never have any idea what's going to happen to these characters each week. And if the kick ass type of action has quieted of late, then the emotional risk has doubled. Watching Buffy each week makes me realize how safe the rest of network tv is, how the audience can watch characters make mistakes only if their actions are telegraphed and autographed BAD. With other television I never leave my comfort zone, as a viewer I'm not at risk. This year with Buffy, I've never had a chance to settle down, never felt at ease. It's not always easy but I'm grateful. Very much so.

[> [> Secret Society of Season Six Supporters + I'll add you one -- Kathy, 13:06:26 03/08/02 Fri

I agree with what you said and I'll go one more step. I firmly believe that the lack of a comfort zone this season is an ingenious device by the writers to have the audience feel as uncertain and frustrated as Buffy does about her life. I've never known a show to grab the audience and put them directly in with the characters like that before. If for no other reason...i say season 6 is great!

[> [> Secret Society of Season Six Supporters + I'll add you one -- Kathy, 13:07:59 03/08/02 Fri

I agree with what you said and I'll go one more step. I firmly believe that the lack of a comfort zone this season is an ingenious device by the writers to have the audience feel as uncertain and frustrated as Buffy does about her life. I've never known a show to grab the audience and put them directly in with the characters like that before. If for no other reason...i say season 6 is great!

[> [> sorry about the double post -- Kathy, 13:09:32 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> Where do I sign up? -- Jon, 13:17:22 03/08/02 Fri

I agree wholeheartedly. Season 6 has surprised me repeatedly, delivering sudden, sharp, emotional blows that speak to me very directly (I think I must still be processing the events of my own stint living as an early 20-something). It has not been escapist - it has not provided fantasy catharses - but it has had epiphanic moments more along the lines of an alcoholic's moment of clarity.

I may be going way over-the-top - or into territory no one wants to go - but one of the most moving moments from this season for me was when Buffy confessed to Spike that she thought she'd been in heaven. "I was torn out of there. My friends pulled me out. And everything here is bright and hard and violent...Everything I feel, everything I touch... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that...knowing what I've lost ..."

Here's the thing I'm loathe to bring up about this scene...but here goes: that scene spoke so directly to my feelings in the wake of 9/11 that I could hardly believe it had been written and shot long before that day. And frankly I had never been a big fan of Buffy herself (my character fanhood started with Willow, went through Xander, and has pretty much settled with Spike) until that moment - she had always been too big and heroic and other. Suddenly I empathized - and identified - with her.

Okay, sorry, retreating from confessional moment. But HB too brought me up short for breath - before anything hugely dramatic happened, just that instant before Xander has to go out to "meet and greet" - his pause before the closed doorway, the deep breath he tries to take...I guess it's fair to say I'm getting a lot of the minutiae this season.

All that said, I must add that I'm glad to read the comments of season 6 detractors here because I know that many of them have been fans much longer than me and have perspectives on things that ultimately enrich my own Buffy experience.

But I'm ready to learn that secret season six handshake, myself.


[> [> [> Buffy Detractor -- Hauptman, 14:12:54 03/08/02 Fri

Great point above about Buffy and the being in Heaven thing. I have to admit (and I was just telling this to a friend not too long ago) that I hated to 2hr premire of Buffy this year, I thought it was too long and that the "I have been resurected and now I am acting like and animal" thing had been covered already. I wanted Buffy back and not the ferral thing they were presenting me with. I thought, "Oh, she is damaged and now, after waiting all freaking sumer for her, I was going to have to wait for Buffy to put it all together. Yawn!

But then she said that she had been in Heaven and now the pain of living was almost too much for her. I was blown away at this idea and, when I rewatched the season opener, I thought it was so rich and layered and interesting.

Now, maybe when all si said and done with season six, I will look back at my tapes (do we all tape it?) and say, Oh, how rich and layered and interesting, but I am not there yet.

Someone said that they were getting a lot out of the minutae (sp?) and little details this season. I admit they are there and often interesting, but I can't live on little things alone. I feel like I am being asked to live on watercrest sandwiches. Bitch, bitch bitch. I know I complain a lot. Don't get me wrong. I do think this season is brave, and someone (sorry, I can't remember the name) made the point that the audience is in a way linked to Buffy, experiencing the bleak and lonely right along with her. Maybe I am just not well enough to take it. Next week we get to see her "go mad". Lord help me, by the end of this season I am going to have to get all the sharp stuff out of my apartment. I am so depressed.

On a side note, one of the things I have always hated about Star Trek is the numerous "It didn't happen" episodes they made in all but the original series. You know the ones where stuff happend in an alternate universe, or in a dream and nobody remembers except maybe one character afterwards, so it doesn't move the narrative forward at all. If they do this on Buffy next week, somebody get over here and talk me in off the ledge.

[> [> [> [> We'll be under that ledge singing kumba-ya-ya! Don't jump! -- ponygirl, 14:21:07 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Re: We'll be under that ledge singing kumba-ya-ya! Don't jump! -- Hauptman, 14:35:13 03/08/02 Fri

Throw in a verse:

"Season three dvd, Kumbaya! Oh lord, kumbaya!"

That might snap me out of it.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy Detractor -- Jon, 14:39:20 03/08/02 Fri

Well, on a Star Trek note, I always loved the Next Generation episode where Data had to take over the Enterprise to prevent the crew from returning to the place where they'd met the super- xenophobic aliens...and the crew returns anyway and then they all had to have their memory of the encounter with the aliens erased - except for Data. I just loved how Data's character was immediately enriched by the weight of the secret he was carrying. It was much the same for me when Spike was the sole keeper of Buffy's Heaven secret. Spike seemed that much more weary, that much more burdened by his strange, unconsummated intimacy with Buffy. Of course that got cleared up in the musical.

I guess I've always liked sad stories and sad songs a lot more than happy victorious things. And the bittersweetness has always been there - all the way back in Season 1, after their victory over the internet demon: Buffy, Xander, and Willow have that little moment where they realize that none of them have had a crush develop into a nice, normal relationship. That little pregnant pause after the joking around when the joke sinks in and isn't so funny. What can I say? I love that stuff.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy Detractor -- Terrapin, 11:52:45 03/09/02 Sat

I believe that Star Trek episode was called "Clues." It was a great episode.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Terrapin: your "meet the posters" profile -- Masq, 21:09:24 03/10/02 Sun

Needs a picture. Let me know who you'd like to have representing you. See the list in the "Meet the Posters" thread below

[> [> Can I be a charter member? -- Sophist, 13:37:21 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> Word, ponygirl! S6 needs love, not judgement! -- Dyna, 15:15:11 03/08/02 Fri

"No season 6 is my black-clad friend down the street, the one I like to have drinks with until the wee hours of the morning, with old Cure records in the background, shaking my head over tales of woe and bad choices."

HA! "The Head on the Door" is an excellent S6 Buffy/Spike soundtrack, IMO. S6 is welcome to come over to my house and pour out her little goth heart over a bottle of tequila any time she likes! So much emotional risk! So much compassion for the characters, even as their deepest, scariest fears are exposed! Love. Her.

On an oddly related note, earlier today I clipped these posts out of the "Normal Again" episode thread at Television Without Pity. Unfortunately, I didn't grab the poster's names, so all I can say is, they're not mine:

Season 4: Man, I thought people hated me. I had Adam for Christ's sake.
Season 6: (hangs head sadly) I don't know where it all went wrong. (sniffles a little) I really don't.
Season 4: *coughMarticough*
Season 6: Say who?
Season 4: Uhh, nothing. Look I gotta go. My rep's bad enough, I can't be around you anymore.

Season 4: Look, over there, it's Season 2 and 3. They think they're so cool.
Season 6: Are they? In my season I kind of forgot about all that happened there.
Season 4: Yes. Oh, over there, Season 5. Hey, Season 5! (waves, then turns away towards Season 6) bitch. Thinks she's so great just because she had Buffy die in hers. Same with Season 1. They're both really off, but they hang out together a lot.
Season 6: Um, right. Listen, I think I'd rather go hang out with Season 5 and 1, ok?
Season 4: Whatever. See if I care. Just give me As You Were.
Season6: Here! (gladly chucks it to Season 4) Hey guys, wait up! I have quirky, fanfic-like BigBads too!

[> [> [> So funny! Thanks! -- Rahael, 15:35:34 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> Well said ponygirl! (NT) -- Ixchel, 17:30:11 03/08/02 Fri


[> [> Re: forming the Secret Society of Season Six Supporters -- Anne, 14:33:21 03/09/02 Sat

Through "Dead Things", I think Season 6 has been magnificent. I even think it's possible that, regardless of how the rest of the season turns out, I will still think that the first half was my favorite Buffy. I do have to admit that at the moment I feel that there are a few balls that have been dropped mid-season -- but I hate to make any final judgments about that until we've gotten to the season finale.

[> Re: The Future of Buffy, Inc. -- Thrasymachus's Wake, 22:37:05 03/08/02 Fri

What I believe is this issue isn't a question of whether Season 6 is a good season, but whether the practice of continuing the series because the previous seasons have been good is a wise idea. In my opinion, I don't think Buffy should be stretched to much and I tend to cringe somewhat at the thought of Buffy extending beyond Season 7.

That is certainly not to say I dislike the series, nor am I saying that there will be no more worthwhile material after a year and half. I love the series tremendously and I believe that there can always be great stories to be told based off our particular view of the Buffyverse.

In fact, I have been happily surprised since I had originally felt in season 3 that Buffy should end at her graduation. A simple, neat package that completed the teenage growing pains & demons series nicely. The beginning of season 4 made me feel somewhat justified, but Buffy did jump right back onto the horse. I have also felt that ending the season at the end of season 5 would also have been a good idea. Here we had a clearer picture of Buffy's character a great circular reference to season 1 with her two deaths -- one practically unwilling, the other a complete self-sacrifice; one which was almost avoided because Buffy was caring primarily about herself (and understandably so) and the other where Buffy's love was more than a love of protecting humanity but of protecting the individuals that comprise it.

A neat package -- perhaps, I value that too much; one could argue that you should try to get as much out of the series as you can when you can. Certainly, had the show ended at those points in time we would have missed out on a lot of great episodes and developments. Yet, that doesn't make the decision to continue necessarily correct -- that uses a sort of reverse logic: a decision is good because the results are good. In truth, proper decision making works the other way: a decision is good if the points that back it are good.

But, you can argue, Buffy has been extremely good in the previous season. Why not continue further? Good performance in a past season suggests that the next season is substantially guaranteed at least a fair performance. Why not stop when we actually sense a non-correctable downturn?

But look at the external evidence: X-files, Friends, Ally McBeal, Star Trek... I realize that there continue to be many fans of all these series; I have watched (though not really to a fanatical point) all these series regularly -- with the exception of Friends and that for no particular reason -- and have found them to be largely engaging. But I've lost interest a long while ago. Yes, (so I hear) Friends is seeing a revival, but for most of the other shows, they don't seem to be as vibrant as they used to be and in many cases their ongoing existance has been pulling reputation of the series as a whole downward. I will speak about X-files in particular, since I feel that that is certainly the most afflicted by this. While popularity among the masses doesn't necessarily equate to quality (and BtVS certainly lacks mass popularity while being a quality show), it does serve as some indicator. Critical favor is perhaps a slightly better (though still poor) judge. Thus, with the case of X-files, which at one point was definitely "cool" to both the populace in general and the critics, has quickly fallen into a passé, cumbersome-at-best category.

Thus, I don't find a historical performance argument particularly compelling. Let us pull in the Star Trek example, however to see what other basis of judgement we can use. The Star Trek franchise has been fairly successful and remains somewhat strong. My belief is that this is true largely because that many of the series (particularly the first, second, and fourth) didn't overcomplicate itself. It had minor story arcs as well as largely episodic plot-lines (à la "Crush, Kill, Destroy"). I don't mind slightly stronger story-arcs, but too much can be too much (I think once again about X-files). The second reason I believe Star Trek to be successful is that they end their series after 7 years then switch to movies. Why? Because as a television program, you *have* to come up with some 20 episodes a season which means that you're constantly working the situation for some plotline or the other. You are bound to get either redundant or start pulling from the pool of storylines that don't merit telling. A move to the movies allows for more concetrated effort in choosing the story; there is no more quota to fulfill. Arguably, I don't know if Buffy would make a good transition back into to movies -- its workings are tied to well with a series (primarily, in my opinion, with progressive directional character development). Nonetheless, I feel that it is still relevant to note that sooner or later, the writers will start picking up stories from the bottom of the barrel because the quality ones are much more difficult to find.

The above leads me to say that I don't think the writers have really been doing that yet. But the yet is an important caveat, because I don't want the writers to have to do that, and I certainly don't want the series to reach a point where they begin to do that constantly. As an admittedly personal belief, I'd much rather the series end with an overall high average episode quality. In fact, I'd like it to end with a bang, so that I could say: "I wish the series continued" rather than have it go through a minor downturn and say: "Well, good thing they got out when they did" or "The last season was good, but it didn't hold up to the rest of the series."

I am intrigued by the suggestion that the series can become a sort of Slayer series, following different slayers when one series ends. However, I think the Star Trek franchise has also been weakened as a whole due to it's new series. An evaluation of the most recent series has some impact on the first series and having to say the middle series are better than the end series is somewhat similar to saying the middle seasons are better than the end seasons. What I think lends to the success of Angel is that it is an independant series in many ways. It is not about Buffy or Slayers and it has less of a retrograde affect on Buffy while sharing in the benefits of a shared history. But the viewpoint is largely different. The same, I believe, would be valid of the Ripper series (or whatever it was to be called, the Watcher, I suppose, but Ripper sounds so much more intriguing) -- darker, slower, perhaps more heady and philosophic than action-based (though certainly sharing in both).

Ultimately, my argument is that BtVS is a great series and should remain that way. A decision to extend the series needs to be really considered not only as concerns whether we believe there are still more stories to tell but also in terms of a cost-benefit consideration: are those stories really worth the risk of the increasing probability of weaker stories? And also, a more holistic question of whether we would rather have a tight series that leaves us wanting more or whether we want a complete series that might risk overfilling us? Indeed, the most direct answer would be le juste milieu, the middle path, or whatever you would like to call it: A series that is tightly knit and has given us just enough to make us satisfied. But the probability of hitting that balance seems rather difficult at best, especially considering the block quantities that contracts impose. A renewal of a contract between ME and UPN would most certainly be something along the lines of two more years as opposed to "as many as you find necessary to complete the series". Thus, if two years overshoots the proper line, we are faced with a question: Should we be left wanting or overfilled? This would again be a question of personal taste. Perhaps I am masochistic, but I feel that being left wanting is generally a much more artistic and potent way to end something. After all, it lets the series remain in the memory much stronger because of this desire to be fulfilled.

I have been wrong twice about whether the writers could pull off additional seasons of Buffy (after 3rd and 5th seasons). Perhaps I would be wrong again at the end of season 7 if it continues, and the only way to prove anything either way is to continue. Still, Buffy is reaching the empirical limits of viability. Few series have succesfully extended this far without a significant waning of its quality. My hope, however, is that there never comes a day when I stop watching the series as new episodes are being produced. Joss had rekindled my faith in a writer/producers ability to be concerned about a show moreso than he is about milking it for all its worth (Joss's assertive reaction to losing fans due to Willow/Tara's relationship, for example, versus once again X-files overextended and often struggling stay). I would hate to be disappointed in seeing Joss continue to series until the fan base falls out from beneath him.

Wow, I apologize for that enormously long first post.

[> [> Re: The Future of Buffy, Inc. -- Hauptman, 07:32:01 03/09/02 Sat

Yes, it was a long post, but it said everything I was thinking better than I ever could. Thanks so much for writing it. One thing I think you made clear is that we don't dislike Buffy, and we plan on watching it to the very end. We just want the end to be a graceful bow out rather than a mercy killing.

I would like to see the Buffyverse go on. It looks like it will. Angel seems strong, and we have "The Ripper" to look forward to. Joss will be working on "Firefly" which seems more like a new version of the Star Trek universe rather than the Buffyverse (Vampires in Space? Naw.)

You made great points about Star Trek and the franchise.

[> Re: Buffy will never ever go the way of The X-Files, and that's all I have to say. -- Dedalus, 09:29:03 03/09/02 Sat

[> Hauptman, you're on to something. -- cjc36, 04:48:45 03/10/02 Sun

Hauptman, I've been feeling this since DMP, if not a bit before. To me, this is the question: Was Slaying proxy for silly youthful adventure? Was fighting demons metaphor for fashion wars and goofy teenage clique drama and a thousand other stupid adventures, and, thus, cannot survive into adulthood?

Without the youth, does the show have a viewpoint anymore?

Also, with the Big Bad turned inward, there is no 'bring together' factor to keep the Scoobies a viable group. Without the common enemy, the characters want to go off in all directions. Good for writers who are bored with the old format, but.... the friendships is what brought me to the party to begin with.

Is this new, adult-life format an honest choice from the writers? I guess. And in their defense, the problem could be mine. But I miss the Scoobies of old, and I miss Giles.

Normal Again Promo Trailer.. wow!!! (spoilers) -- neaux, 08:42:19 03/08/02 Fri

Yeah, since the promo on Tuesday was Scrunched up at the top of my tv screen, while the credits ran underneath, I wasnt able to get a good look.. but now that its online, WOW!!

Buffy's mom and dad in the same room!! How is that for normal..

and if you do the slow mo trick.. you can see Xander and Willow and it looks like they are kicking somebody's booty.

any thoughts??

[> I don't know, but I will say that I'm more excited about this ep than any since OMWF! -- Rob, 08:43:38 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> I just watched it (over and over) and I agree! I CAN'T WAIT!!! -- GreatRewards, 13:09:08 03/08/02 Fri

[> Where is it online? -- Apophis, 10:01:43 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> -- neaux, 10:37:12 03/08/02 Fri

[> Re: Wizard of OZ feel to the promo -- wiscoboy, 10:13:58 03/08/02 Fri

The preview made me think this will be a Wiz of OZ episode,
where in the end Buffy wakes up from her altered reality of the mental institution(where all the people she cares about are playing parts) back into her hell reality. Is this Anya's 1st foray back into demonhood? Or is it something else? Next week will answer that question. I'm holding out for the latter, hoping Anya turns down the offer to again become a vengence demon.
I must say that JW must have previously entertained ending the series as the promo suggests(but thankfully rejected)but instead decided to use the idea as we'll see it Tues. in season6.

[> [> Re: Wizard of OZ feel to the promo -- GreatRewards, 13:16:05 03/08/02 Fri

I agree with your theory about JW's original intention for this story. It certainly does have that "series-ending" feel to it.

I also agree that it's good he didn't go that route, since this kind of thing (as a series-ender) is too "been there, done that"-y! (hehe... I speak "buffy-ese"!)

[> [> [> Re: Wizard of OZ feel to the promo -- wiscoboy, 13:33:43 03/08/02 Fri

I'm hoping JW ends the series with some rule of Slayerdom never broached before = when a slayer reaches her ## birthday(which no other has ever achieved), it initiates inner powers which allow her to overcome demons with just a look and to forever close the Hellmouth. This knowledge is known by the demon-side and causes an exponential increase in attempts to kill the Slayer before that event occurs. This would certainly increase the action for BTVS's final(although it could be cool to see the Slayer get to her 30's) season.

[> [> kind of "Return to OZ" as well. (No electroshock therapy, I hope, that really gives me the willies.) -- yuri, 13:55:52 03/09/02 Sat

To those who have submitted a poster profile and aren't up on "Meet the Posters" yet -- Masquerade, 09:21:01 03/08/02 Fri

Here is the list I have of posters who submitted profiles in the last couple months. Let me know if you're not on it and wish to be.

Annoying1 - Skip (sorry for the delay, A1!)
Apophis - (sorry, Moloch's been taken)
darrenK - Sid the puppet
dream of the consortium - Catherine (Amy's Mom)

It will be extremely helpful in getting these new profiles up if posters let me know what character they would like representing them. The list of pics I have available is below. You can also pick another character who isn't already taken (to see who's taken, go to Meet the Posters. I will try to find a picture of that character, but can't make any promises.

S. 2

Fordham, Billy "Ford"
Grace (IOHEFY)
Merrick (Buffy's first Watcher)
Order of Taraka guy
Tom (Reptile Boy)

S. 3

Olivikan (The Mayor demon)
Ovu Mobani (Dead Man's Party)
Sisterhood of jhe demon (The Zeppo)

S. 4/1

Marcus the vampire (In the Dark)
Meltzer, Ronald (I Fall to Pieces)
Nun (I've Got You Under My Skin)
Russel Winters (City Of...)
Ryan (I've Got You Under My Skin)
Scourge demon (Hero)
Vahrall demon
Vocah (To Shanshu in LA)

S. 5/2

"Checkpoint" Watchers Council
Monk (5th season)

S. 6/3

Andrew (Troika)
Billy (That Vision Thing, Billy)
Gavin Park
Rondell (That Old Gang of Mine)
Warren (Troika)

[> I'll take -- Sophist, 09:37:05 03/08/02 Fri

the Watcher's Council. They're as sophistical as they come.

[> Can I have the Mayor demon? -- Apophis, 09:48:35 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> Sure -- Masq, 14:51:55 03/08/02 Fri

[> Meet the Posters: Forrest -- Hauptman, 13:46:28 03/08/02 Fri

Put me down for Forrest, poor guy.

[> [> Before Adam got him. Please. :) -- Sophist, 13:55:07 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Before Adam got him. Please. :) -- Hauptman, 14:14:34 03/08/02 Fri

Yes, thank you Sophist. Pre-makeover please.

[> [> [> [> How does this grab you? -- Masq, 14:45:52 03/08/02 Fri


[> [> [> [> [> Re: How does this grab you? -- Hauptman, 16:28:36 03/08/02 Fri

It's like looking in a mirror. Okay, a magic mirror that makes me look young and buff, but otherwise uncanny. Thanks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Much more flattering than demonForrest -- Masq, 17:03:54 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> can I have..... -- O'Cailleagh, 17:17:40 03/08/02 Fri

The original Merrick (Donald Sutherland) if you have him. If not, then the glitter twins'll have to do! Or Doyle...I don't think I saw him on meet the posters...could be wrong though.Thanx

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: can I have..... -- Masquerade, 13:37:19 03/09/02 Sat


I'd be happy to put up a picture of Donald Sutherland as Merrick. I've poked around the net some today and haven't been able to find one. Maybe you could look around and email a pic to me if you find one?



[> Re: To those who have submitted a poster profile and aren't up on "Meet the Posters" yet -- NightRepair, 22:54:31 03/08/02 Fri

Hey Masq,

I was hoping you could surprise me with someone from S6 (preferably of the female variety if possible). I am in Australia and S6 has only just started here - I saw 'Bargaining' just last week. So, I'd love it if you could surprise me with someone I don't know from the current season, and when they finally screen that epsisode in Oz, I will get a real kick out of it!

Also, I read a couple of weeks ago that you like to see the 'posters' posting, which is fair enough. My only problem is that as I haven't seen most of the episodes people are discussing, I can't really contribute. I do however, assure you that I am a dedicated visitor to this message board/chatroom and would be delighted to be included in 'meet the posters'. (maybe mine should read 'meet the avid reader!)


[> [> ooh, I do have someone in mind for you... -- Masq, 23:23:10 03/08/02 Fri

[> [> [> Thanks Masq! -- NightRepair, 16:18:16 03/09/02 Sat

I will be eagerly waiting in antici..........pation!

[> Re: To those who have submitted a poster profile and aren't up on "Meet the Posters" yet -- Rochefort, 13:11:29 03/10/02 Sun

If the demon from "Anne" who runs the other dimension isn't taken, played by that guy from Kicking and Screaming, and you've got a picture of that guy, can I have him? Otherwise, I'll take Ford. Thanks!

[> [> I have a pic of Ken without his demon face, is that OK? -- Masq, 14:27:30 03/10/02 Sun

The picture of Ford is also his human appearance.

[> [> [> Perfect! -- Rochefort, 15:46:37 03/10/02 Sun

: ) Thanks! The demon face is too scary anyway. And it takes so long to put on!

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