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Responding to TCH: cjl's review of ANGEL S2 (2nd in an annoying continuing series) -- cjl, 08:36:53 03/05/03 Wed

Overall, this was my favorite season of ANGEL until S4 rolled along, and it still contains my all-time favorite scene in either series. The Darla arc was extraordinarily well-done, and threw light on Angel's history on BUFFY as well as his own.

I loved the Pylea arc. I thought the fairy-tale underpinnings and deceptive brightness were a welcome change for this series, and we could view all our main characters from an entirely new perspective. shadowkat told me Joss and ME had planned to ramp up to another Darla mini-arc to end the season, but all (yes, ALL) of their guest stars bailed out on them: Christian Kane, Julie Benz and Juliet Landau. If they went to the Pylea arc out of desperation, the guys (and Mere) should be desperate more often. To the ratings:

JUDGMENT Original airdate: September 26, 2000. Written by: David Greenwalt. Directed by: Michael Lange. Guest stars: Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julie Benz as Darla, Eliza Dushku as Faith, Justina Machado as Jo, Andy Hallett as The Host.

The "Justice League" opening had me on the floor laughing. But as Tim Minear said in his SFX summary, it was wise to adjust the perception of Angel's mission after the golden promise of TSILA got everybody's hopes up (the fans and Angel himself.) I was affected by Justina Machado as Jo much more than most of Angel's rescuees, and I'm wondering what her child will be like when it grows up. Solid opener.

Rating: 8 out of 10.

ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN? Original airdate: October 3, 2000. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: David Semel. Guest stars: Melissa Marsala as Judy, John Kapelos as Roland Meeks, Tommy Hinkley as the P.I., J.P. Manoux as the bellman.

An instant classic--but for some reason, I found the McCarthy-era allegory a little bit too schematic and the '50s-era characters themselves suffered for it. Still, not much to complain about otherwise: the scene with Judy at the end, the mob hanging Angel, and Angel proclaiming the hotel cleansed of eeeevil are triumphs. (Yes, the House at Metaphor strikes again! Angel should hire Xander to fix the windows and big fights...)

9 out 10.

FIRST IMPRESSIONS Original airdate: October 10, 2000. Written by: Shawn Ryan. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, David Herman as David Nabbit, Andy Hallett as The Host, Cedrick Terrell as Jameel.

The Darla arc moves along in baby steps, while Cordelia and Gunn exhibit oil-and-water chemistry that drains the life out of episodes. Not bad, but utterly forgettable.

6 out of 10.

UNTOUCHED Original airdate: October 17, 2000. Written by: Mere Smith. Directed by: Joss Whedon. Guest Stars: Daisy McCrackin as Bethany, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julie Benz as Darla, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners.

A terrific psychological suspense ep, with solid work turned in by all our leads, and an especially wicked turn from Stephanie Romanov, as Lilah finally hits the big leagues. (Wouldn't it have been great if Lilah set up a Morgan House for Gifted Girls, kind of like an evil version of Casa Summers and the potentials?) Like the way Bethany's problems with Daddy resonated with Wes and Angel. Good stuff.

8 of 10.

DEAR BOY Original airdate: October 24, 2000. Written and directed by: David Greenwalt. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Andy Hallet as The Host.

The machinations of Darla and Wolfram and Hart aren't anywhere near as interesting as Angel's obsession with Darla--and that girl knows how to push...Every. Damn. Button. "God doesn't want you--but I do." Yum.

8 out of 10.

GUISE WILL BE GUISE Original airdate: November 7, 2000. Written by: Jane Espenson. Directed by: Krishna Rao. Guest stars: Brigid Brannagh as Virginia Bryce, Todd Susman as Magnus Bryce, Art LeFleur as the guru, Patrick Kilpatrick as Paul Lanier, Andy Hallett as The Host.

Jane E.! Yay! The Wesley episode I'd been waiting for, but what surprised me were Angel's scenes with the phony swami, which provided real psychological insight. I liked Virginia a lot, and was kind of surprised when she bailed out on Wes. What, Daddy's business wasn't dangerous?

7 out 10.

DARLA (Crossover with Buffy - "Fool for Love") Original airdate: November 14, 2000. Written and directed by: Tim Minear. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, James Marsters as Spike, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Mark Metcalf as The Master, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners.

The minute the Master walked into Darla's room, Minear had me by the throat. The flipside of the scene from "Fool for Love" was executed brilliantly, and Julie Benz officially joined the Buffy/Angel pantheon of great villains.

9 out of 10.

THE SHROUD OF RAHMON Original airdate: November 21, 2000. Written by: Jim Kouf. Directed by: David Grossman. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Tony Todd as Vyasa, W. Earl Brown as Menlo, Dwayne L. Barnes as Lester, Tom Kiesche as Det. Broomfield, R. Emery Bright as Det. Turlock.

A tepid knock off of the Treasure of the Sierra Madre, with Angel actually impersonating one of those grifters and oddballs you find in B. Traven's novels and stories. The whole plot point of Angel biting Kate was never followed up in future episodes, and the lack of follow-through doesn't reflect too well on this ep.

5.5 out of 10.

THE TRIAL Original airdate: November 28, 2000. Written by: Douglas Petrie and Tim Minear. Directed by: Bruce Seth Green. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, Andy Hallett as The Host, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Jim Piddock as the valet.

Absolutely heartbreaking. Drusilla's vamping of Darla was a masterstroke--the only way they could go if the "Beige" Angel plotline was going to be convincing.

9 out 10.

REUNION Original airdate: December 19, 2000. Written by: Tim Minear and Shawn Ryan. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley.

"Please, help us!" "And yet, I just can't seem to care." "You're all fired." Genius.

10 out of 10.

REDEFINITION Original airdate: January 16, 2001. Written by: Mere Smith. Directed by: Michael Grossman. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Andy Hallett as The Host, Brigid Brannagh as Virginia Bryce.

A frightening ending, in which Angel (NOT Angelus) decides to inflict pain rather than kill. We revisited this capacity for darkness in the "good" side of Angel in "Forgiving," and I have no doubt we'll see it again as the two sides of his character begin to merge. Bonus points for the W/G/C drunken karaoke butchering of "We Are the Champions."

8 out of 10.

BLOOD MONEY Original airdate: January 23, 2001. Written by: Shawn Ryan and Mere Smith. Directed by: R.D. Price. Guest stars: Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julia Lee as Anne, Mark Rolston as Boone, Gerry Becker as Nathan Reed, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, Matthew James as Merl.

Brutally cynical, and it left a refreshingly bitter taste in my mouth. I guess I'm funny that way.

7.5 out of 10.

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY Original airdate: February 6, 2001. Written by: David Greenwalt. Directed by: Bill Norton. Guest stars: Andy Hallett as The Host, Matt Champagne as Gene, Brigid Brannagh as Virginia Bryce, Darby Stanchfield as Denise, Mike Hagerty as the bartender.

I found the science fiction aspect of the episode rather jarring and the metaphor a bit strained, but the teaming of Lorne and Angel was a hell of a lot of fun.

7.5 out 10.

THE THIN DEAD LINE Original airdate: February 13, 2001. Written by: Jim Kouf and Shawn Ryan. Directed by: Scott McGinnis. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Julia Lee as Anne, Mushond Lee as Jackson, Jarrod Crawford as Rondell, Matthew James as Merl.

I loved this episode. Yes, the metaphor was too "dead on" (sorry), but the interactions between Gunn and Wes (English soul brother #1!) and Kate and Angel made it all worthwhile.

8.5 out of 10.

REPRISE Original airdate: February 20, 2001. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: James Whitmore, Jr. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julie Benz as Darla, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, Andy Hallett as The Host, Brigid Brannagh as Virginia Bryce, Gerry Becker as Nathan Reed, Thomas Kopache as Denver.

The elevator ride to Hell with Holland Masters is my all-time favorite scene in BOTH series. The levels of philosophical wisdom and psychological manipulation could take years to unravel. Ranks with C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters" as the prime examples of Evil explaining its role in the Universe. In my mind, the first episode that ranked with the best of BUFFY, and I would never miss an episode of ANGEL again.

11 out 10.

EPIPHANY Original airdate: February 27, 2001. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: Thomas J. Wright. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Andy Hallett as The Host.

Can only say "Amen" to you review, TCH.

10 out of 10.

DISHARMONY Original airdate: April 17, 2001. Written by: David Fury. Directed by: Fred Keller. Guest stars: Mercedes McNab as Harmony, Pat Healy as Doug Sanders, Andy Hallett as The Host, Alyson Hannigan as Willow Rosenberg.

Sorry, TCH--I buy Minear's rationale. This episode was freakin' hilarious, my favorite Harmony ep of all time. Doug Sanders, The vamp-Amway Salesman, was an idea whose time had come. Then again, I like David Fury. I loved Go Fish. What do I know?

8 out of 10.

DEAD END Original airdate: April 24, 2001. Written by: David Greenwalt. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Andy Hallett as The Host, Gerry Becker as Nathan Reed.

Christian Kane's evil hand speech is a classic, and holy cow, can that boy sing! Great anti-buddy ep, although Angel's schoolboy peevishness got on my nerves after a while. Excellent send off for ex-white trash Lindsay...

7.5 out of 10

BELONGING Original airdate: May 1, 2001. Written by: Shawn Ryan. Directed by: Turi Meyer. Guest stars: Andy Hallet as The Host, Brody Hutzler as Landok, Jarrod Crawford as Rondell, Darris Love as George, Amy Acker as Fred.

OVER THE RAINBOW Original airdate: May 8, 2001. Written by: Mere Smith. Directed by: Fred Keller. Guest stars: Andy Hallet as The Host, Amy Acker as Fred, Susan Blommaert as Vakma, Persia White as Aggie, Daniel Dae Kim as Gavin Park, Michael Phenicie as Silas.

THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS Original airdate: May 15, 2001. Written and directed by: Tim Minear. Guest stars: Andy Hallet as The Host, Amy Acker as Fred, Brody Hutzler as Landok, Mark Lutz as the Groosalugg, Tom McCleister as The Host's mother, Michael Phenicie as Silas.

THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE PLRTZ GLRB Original airdate: May 22, 2001. Written and directed by: David Greenwalt. Guest stars: Andy Hallet as The Host, Amy Acker as Fred, Mark Lutz as the Groosalugg, Michael Phenicie as Silas, Tom McCleister as The Host's mother, Brody Hutzler as Landok, Lee Reherman as the Captain.

Can't add much to your usual perceptive and intelligent summary, TCH. Just wanted to reiterate how much I enjoyed the whole trip down the rabbit hole.

Collective rating: 8 out 10.

On to S3! (If you've got some old baby clothes in the attic, bring 'em out of storage...)

[> Tim Minear's Thoughts on Pylea (responding to TCH) -- s'kat, 08:54:48 03/05/03 Wed

(First off I agree with most of your thoughts here. I didn't like Pylea that much upon first watching, liked it better the second go around. Like you - I tend to be like Rob and Rufus in preferring Btvs to Ats. But also like you I see Ats as well written and beautifully layered. It's the characters that make the difference for me in this case not the writing.

On the rankings? I disagree slightly. My favorites from that season are Dear Boy, Darla, and Redefinition. I'd give those three episodes a 10, everything else...between 4-8. I've always found the second episode of the season to be overrated and somewhat cliche in places, probably b/c I've seen one too many movies on that topic. ;-))

But enough of my opinions - on to the good stuff:

From the SFX Article Season 2 Angel Overview with Tim Minear:

Season two wraps up with a three-part visit to the Host's dimension, Pylea, where Cordelia becomes queen; where Angel can live in sunlight and see his reflection; where they encounter Fred (amy Acker) for the first time; and where everybody is literally fighting for their lives. The episodes involved are Over The Rainbow, Through The Looking Glass and There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb each decidedly lighter than much of the season.

"We knew we wanted to do Pylea," explains Minear, " and the question was whether or not we could afford to. It was incredibly expensive to do. Think of all the demon make-ups, first of all. Shooting on location; creating a place to shoot it; creating a castle; all this stuff was expensive. We actually ended up going to this little Mexican village that's not a real village. It's sort of a backlot thing out in the boondocks where film companies shoot sometimes. If you look closely, you may notice that Pylea is also China from episode seven. It's the exact same village but redressed. So that was a lot of location shooting and a lot of day shooting, which we don't normally do."

"I thought it was all great, but fans were divided," he notes, "They were saying things like, 'Where's Darla? Where's the angst? What's going on?' We brought in Darla and instead of him staking her and saving everybody and they go off for pancakes and eggs together at the end of the season, Darla was demoralized and just went away. I think that people weren't sure what to make of that. It didn't seem like a resolution to them, and in fact it was not, as they would discover in season 3. What people have to remember is that the season was about Angel not about Darla. If you look at Pylea and what we did there, it's sort of a metaphor writ large for what all our characters have been through this season."

"Cordelia used to be popular, but then she had her money and prestige ripped from her. Here she gets to be elevated to the position of a princess. What does that mean? She's grown beyond that. Wes of course always wanted to be a leader and always failed miserably. Then he became a leader and really became a leader. Gunn ended up leaving his people behind and feeling responsible for the death of some of them. What he learns in Pylea is if you try not getting anybody killed, you'll end up getting everybody killed. So everbody's story is sort of put in that fantasyland. And of course there's Fred."

Playing up the laughs was something Minear pushed as far as he could in Through The Looking Glass. "But once it gets really funny," he smiles, "you can really knock everybody on their ass. Angel in a foetal position is never a bad thing. It was so much fun directing this episode. For me, everything was clicking. David was very funny. His playing the vanity and really liking everybody calling him ahero and telling the story to the kids - I thought that was great and I thought his chemistry with Fred was great. She was adorable. And Charisma was over the top, Carole Lombard funny. And I loved Wes and Gunn together. I thought it all worked, which sounds terrible to say from the writer/director."

He describes No Place Like Plrtz Glrb as the "big resolution", followed by the moment when the gang gets back to the hotel to find Willow there, waiting to tell Angel that Buffy has died. "I thought the episode really worked. Andy Hallett was great as a disembodied head. I think some of the stuff in that episode was the Wes moments: 'You're not running this, I am.' I just thought he was cool, grown -up and a badass, which was a nice place to take that character. And then there was Angel confronting the physical manifestation of his darker self, which is something he'll have to deal with again in the future, even if it's not in a starkly metaphorical way. I think the important point to take away is that he is embarrassed by the ugly thing he feels he really is, which is why he doesn't want his friends to see him that way. I think that had a lot to do with why he fired them."

Oh some interesting side notes:

1. Apparently all their guest star negotiations fell through at the end of the season. I mean all of them, with the exception of Andy Hallet who is a personal friend of Joss Whedon. So they had to come up with an alternative. Whedon suggested the whole Pylea idea and that they pick up Darla next year - when they could get Julie Benze again.
(This isn't the first time they've had problems getting Landau - see Lover's Walk.) And Elizabeth Roem (sp?) who played Kate went over to Law & ORder.

2. Tim Minear and Whedon were horribly upset with WB this season. Not only was WB being a pain with renewing of Btvs and syndication rights, but WB put a picture of the Host's head on a platter on their site, two weeks prior to the airing of the episode. Their own network released a major spoiler!! And they have tried hard to squash them. Informing cast, crew and assorted underlings - you release spoilers - you are fired. I don't think Minear ever quite forgave network execs for this.

PS: I deleted all future spoilers from this TCH so it should be safe. Also dang VOY archived your thread before I could post this.


[> [> Also responding to TCH-some squickiness-and Pylea -- Arethusa, 09:24:17 03/05/03 Wed

I wouldn't say society is obsessed with pediphilia-it's just starting to acknowledge it. There's no proof at all Dodgson was one, but he did lose interest in his little female friends when they hit puberty, and stopped taking the photographs when mammas became concerned that he kissed the little girls after photographing them. One of the detectives investigating Jackson said the boy in question could describe his genetalia in detail-not a goood sign.

One of the writers said the Pylean arc was a case of "be careful what you wish for." Angel got to be a Hero without any of those tricky moral ambiguities, but couldn't control the monster. Cordelia became a princess, complete with Prince Charming, but no longer had control over her fate. Wes finally bacame the leader, but had to lead people to their deaths.

I'm really enjoying your Odyssey, TCH-too bad it's so much shorter than the earlier one!

[> [> [> My post is a response to 'Alice's Age' -- Arethusa, 09:39:08 03/05/03 Wed

Voynok is messing with me-it said the post was archived, so I put it here. Bad demon.

[> [> [> [> TCH's thread is back vvvv -- Masq, 09:46:22 03/05/03 Wed

Sorry, it got pushed into the archives by some humungous cancerous threads that have been irradiated into the archives themselves.

[> [> [> Thanks -- Tchaikovsky, 04:28:17 03/06/03 Thu

I couldn't do a real Odyssey- I'm definitely not a Hero- so this three month kind of thing is more my bag. As Masq said, the word Odyssey seems more and more appropriate to Angel as I go through the series, as he seems to have taken on the larger-than-life emotions and drama of a Greek hero.

I just re-read my 'Alice's Age' post, and I think your response is very tempered. My post comes across as being rather blase about a difficult issue, and almost ignoring the (unimaginable to me) pain of the victims. It's just that there's an element of the British press which has whipped up a big storm of hysteria to do with the issue- to the point where a paediatrician was mistakenly attacked. Although I have no certainty on either Dodgson or Jackson, the Martin Bashir interview took various comments about his making friends with boys and organising sleepovers, and blew them up with little evidence. On the evidence presented on camera, it just appeared that Jackson had the emotional maturity of an 11 year old- going into big toy shops and buying everything because he can- taking his children to the zoo despite the press interest in him- and being exceptionally self-conscious. It seemed he needed counselling rather than being branded so carefully.

That's an interesting point on Pylea. I really do think there are a lot of things going on under the surface which I haven't quite grasped yet. Need several more watchings- which is as good an excuse as any to blow my money on the DVD sometime soon!


[> [> [> [> TCH, you won't believe this! -- Arethusa, 07:47:14 03/06/03 Thu

I just opened the daily paper and found out the exhibition titled Dreaming in Pictures: The photographs of Lewis Carroll is at the Houston Museum of Fine Arts. What great luck. I saw some of the photos on the web, but seeing old photos in person is totally different. There's an oblique reference to the scandelous aspect of the photos: "We miscontrue these pictures if we define photography as being about actual things and concrete reality," said Douglas Nickel (San Francisco Museum of Art curator).

[> [> [> [> [> Oooh!! -- Tchaikovsky, 09:36:36 03/06/03 Thu

That sounds very interesting. Do tell us about them when/if you see them.


[> ^ vague S3 spoiler above, TCH - just avoid Redefinition -- Scroll, 09:04:51 03/05/03 Wed

Sorry for jumping on you like that, cjl, but I figure better safe than sorry : ) And thanks for posting your review of S2. I had been all set to reply to TCH's Pylea arc thread but it got swallowed up by voynok.

I too enjoyed the Pylea adventures, though I admit to feeling some confusion the first time watching. But surrealism kinda grows on you.

"Belonging" was terrific for showing how life kept undercutting the gang's confidence and sense of identity. Wes' conversation with his father is just excellent, and also tells us something about Watchers in general, I think. I particularly loved Gunn's story, seeing him standing at a distance, watching his friend's body being burned. It really brought home how tough those kids' lives must be, that it's absolutely normal and necessary for them to perform their own death rituals. No such thing as a shiny oak casket and a bunch of white-gloved pall-bearers for these kids. And I think Gunn is paired with fire for (maybe?) the first time. I've always associated Gunn with fire -- he's pretty hot-headed, passionate, burning.

I may be the only one, but I like the Groosalug, that big hunk o' champion. Sure, he was kind of two-dimensional to begin with, but I think he was starting to mature near the end. There was an innocence to him that was entirely appealing.

I don't want to get into S3 for fear of spoiling anyone, but I think Wesley as General is one of the key moments of the Pylea arc. Especially as to how it affects his relationship with Gunn. For the first time, Gunn sees the Watcher mentality at work -- and it is the antithesis of Gunn's "leave no man behind" credo. Must have been particularly hard for Gunn coming so close on the heel's of Rondell's death.

TCH, if you read this, I really loved your analysis of Cordy and Fred as Alice. Nice work!

[> [> Completely agree on power of 'Belonging'- and thanks! -- Tchaikovsky, 04:19:01 03/06/03 Thu

[> Responding to Gyrus: ANGEL S1 arcs -- cjl, 10:01:11 03/05/03 Wed

Responding to yet ANOTHER archived thread....

After watching almost all of ANGEL S1 on DVD at one sitting a couple of weeks ago (20 inches of snow outside--what else was I going to do?), I saw strong character arcs connecting the seemingly dis-connected episodes of the season, and it all tied together beautifully in To Shanshu in L.A.

Reconnecting: ANGEL, despite his love for Buffy and his valiant heroism on BtVS, was always a loner, and Doyle very bluntly told Angel what might happen if he remained detached from humanity. Angel's clintele in S1 were people disconnected from their friends and their families, trying to build a new future in L.A., and therefore, were easily prey for the things in the night (and their lawyers). Prime example of this was Cordelia, of course, and we saw aspects of Cordelia's situation reflected in the women Angel helped out during the season.

Building a family: By extension, reconnecting with humanity for Angel means building a new family. He opens the detective agency, learns to trust Cordelia's judgment and takes on Doyle's mission with enthusiasm. He almost withdraws again when Doyle makes his sacrifice in "Hero," but Cordy won't let him go under. Eventually, with the addition of Wes to the family taking some of the sting off his grief, he's integrated back into humanity enough so that the revelation in To Shanshu In L.A. MEANS something to him.

Unfinished business: This actually applies to ANGEL the series as a whole (i.e, Darla in S2-3 and The Beast/Angelus in S4), rather than just season 1, but as a spinoff, the unfinished business aspect is almost unavoidable. We get Spike, Oz, Faith, the Watchers Council (Wes' unfinished business), Doyle's ex, Cordelia's post-Sunnydale malaise in "Rm w/a Vu," and--naturally--the Buffster herself, who just won't go away and won't stay dead!

Plenty of thematic goodness. If they'd stuck with the anthology format, I wouldn't have been too disappointed.

[> [> Good points...Definition of 'anthology series'? -- Gyrus, 11:22:09 03/05/03 Wed

When you put it that way, yes, there certainly are character-development arcs for everyone in S1. What I really meant was that there isn't a long-term plotline -- it's all just MoW until "Blind Date" or thereabouts.

Regarding the definition of an "anthology series": I had thought that an anthology series is one that has both different plots AND different main characters every week, like THE TWILIGHT ZONE or THE OUTER LIMITS. Am I wrong?

(When I read the bit about ANGEL having been originally intended as an anthology series, I assumed this meant that Angel would be a sort of host or commentator, ala Rod Serling, but would not be directly involved in the stories themselves.)

[> [> [> Actually, I think your definition of 'anthology series' is the right one... -- cjl, 12:23:45 03/05/03 Wed

But over the years, I think it has come to include series like "The Fugitive," where the main character(s) encounter different situations each week, with an entirely new set of co-stars. Star Trek, ST:TNG and Voyager were anthology series (for the most part), going to new planets each week, meeting all sorts of strange and interesting creatures with strikingly similar latex makeup. DS9 wasn't: it stuck around the space station, and seasons 4-7 were almost entirely taken up with the Dominion War. The X-Files managed to combine the two formats, going into "mythology" mode for huge stretches, then reverting to one-shots when Carter and his crew needed a breather....

[> [> Nice summation of the themes of Season 1 (spoilers for all seasons) -- Masq, 11:38:55 03/05/03 Wed

That tie nicely into the Family theme of the other seasons

Seasons 1-4: The AI gang is a family of loners coming together in LA. (this is true of all the characters except perhaps Gunn, who had the struggle of giving up his old "family" to join AI).

Angel, then Doyle, then Cordelia, then Wesley, then Gunn, then Fred, then Connor join the family.

But the AI family has their share of trouble and break-ups, Angel in S. 2, Wesley in S. 3&4.

Season 2: Angel's struggle to make peace with his old family, represented by Darla and then Drusilla. Try as he might, he's still at loose ends with Darla at the end of Season 2.

Season 3: Angel finally makes peace with Darla, and welcomes a new member into his family, a real son, Connor. But of course, his past as Angelus comes back to haunt him in the form of Holtz, a second father to Connor. He takes away Angel's child, Connor's childhood, and Connor's loyalty to Angel.

Season 4: Wesley and Connor coming back into the family, but their loyalty is shaky. Cordelia's presumed loyalty to the family is a hanging question. Whether or not the come together as a family as in Angel's underwater fantasy is the open question of Season 4.

Oh, I didn't mean to go on like this. I just really resonate with the way the Family theme works on Angel.

[> [> [> Re: Nice summation of the themes of Season 1 (spoilers for all seasons) -- aliera, 12:04:09 03/05/03 Wed

Me too...especially Connor ;-)

[> [> [> [> Cool, another Connor fan! -- Masq, 12:32:46 03/05/03 Wed

I'm not sure why I find him especially compelling. It's a combination of vulnerability and toughness, anger and eagerness, identity confusion that needs Angel colliding with moral confusion that rejects Angel.

He's damn annoying sometimes, and yet I can't help but like him.

I'm kind of curious what Ben thinks of him.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Cool, another Connor fan! -- Arethusa, 16:01:49 03/05/03 Wed

I like watching the tug of war going on inside him every time he's around Angel and AI. He wants so much to be accepted and part of a family, yet they are everything he's been taught to hate. And he has a wicked tongue-like when he told Angel that Cordy looked good on him too.

Aree, killing time until AtS in on. (Umph! Just stabbed a clock.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Connor and Calvary (spoilers to AtS 4.12) -- Ixchel, 17:26:36 03/05/03 Wed

Something that has bothered me about Calvary is that Connor seems so _eager_ to kill Angelus. Then I realized, if Connor tells himself that Angel isn't "real" is an "illusion" (something Angelus "wears") then he can kill him and not be restrained by his love for that "illusion". To him (subconsciously) he will be free of the feelings that tear him in two. IMHO any love he has felt for Angel must be marred with a feeling of betraying Holtz. Now, with Angelus, Connor is presented with an opportunity to take Holtz' vengeance for him and not suffer guilt at killing a father who obviously loves him. Of course he surely would feel guilt, but I doubt he knows that.

Hope that makes sense.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You make perfect sense, and I agree. Poor little tortured dhampir. ;) -- Arethusa, 17:34:18 03/05/03 Wed

Incidently, I read that the legand of dhampirs arose when women mysteriously turned up pregnant after their husbands died. Supposedly, their husbands came back as vampires and impregnated them. Veeery convenient.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Arethusa. Yes, always be wary of the overly convenient. ;) -- Ixchel, 22:12:25 03/05/03 Wed

[> Good picks -- Tchaikovsky, 04:10:24 03/06/03 Thu

Some of those scenes you mentioned I had temporarily forgotten, and made me want to rush home and watch again. Unfortunately, I'm cutting back after the spree on Buffy DVD's I had last year, but some day my restraint will break and I'll go out and buy Angel Season Two. It is a great Season. I think AYNOHYEB and 'The Trial' were the two episodes which finally convinced me that the show was on a par quality-wise with Buffy, and convinced me that virtually nothing could make me lose interest. But the 'Reprise'/'Epiphany' double was my high point of the Season.

And there definitely are some good points to 'Disharmony' as I mentioned in my review. It's just that I was both personally irked by it, and it seemed to fit in uncomfortably with the episodes around it, and therefore I will not be watching it again any time soon. Don't get your last line- but I probably don't want to.


[> Response to lunasea from origial Odyssey thread -- Tchaikovsky, 05:04:39 03/06/03 Thu

Good post again.

One little chain that needs clarifying:
I wrote:
"But, as you state, it is a necessary endowment from the Powers That Be in order that he can be their Champion for a while."

The you responded:
But it isn't. They aren't using him for his physical prowess. If that was the case, why aren't they bugging Spike or better yet Groo? They are using his physical prowess to make him what they need. Your comments about Groo were very good. What is key to that character is why he isn't Angel. What Angel has that he doesn't is what makes the PTB need Angel.

Well, yes, you're right. Angel is chosen because he is able to fight for good in a way that Groo isn't. But it is still necessary that he has his physical powers. Not because that's why (the only reason) he is chosen by the PtB, but because he is a more effective Champion as a result of it.

A couple more thoughts:
You wrote:
Masq writes in her analysis of IWRY that if it was a test, Angel passed it. I would say he failed it. He wasn't able to see what he could give Buffy (or the world) as a human. Buffy's death wish kicked in a year later. If Angel was in her life, it probably wouldn't have. He isn't a a lower being because he was willing to give up everything, but he isn't quite what he will become either.

I'm not sure about this. I don't like 'I Will Remember You', partly for stylistic and directorial reasons, and partly because I do not believe personally that at this stage of Angel's mission to 'help the helpless', he would not willingly become human given the opportunity. I can understand the writers' idea behind it: that he is not able to cope with being weak and needing to be saved by Buffy, but I just can't believe that he would spoil the, (excessively silly but obviously blissful) happiness he felt on that day by re-engaging in his mission. Many disagree with me, and I respect their opinions. However, in the sense of the plot being that the Powers That Be wanted to test Angel's loyalty to his new role- the path they had laid out for him to becoming a Champion or even a human Hero despite all reason to choose another path- Angel passed the test. I don't think that there is any canonical evidence that there is a test going on in the episode in the other direction- that Angel ought to have been able to sacrifice his powers in order to help Buffy out- to become the human link that she needs to the world. That would contradict Angel's mini-epiphany, which chimes with the end of 'In the Dark' and 'Epiphany' itself, where he realises that his mission is just to help as well as he can- for the good of LA as much as for the good of himself. Angel's decision seems like an untidy thorn in the thematic and moral structure of the series, if you take your interpretation.

Finally, your explanation of Season Two as a whole- as Angel's desire to defeat evil being transcended in order that he actually might do it, is very insightful. It is telling though that his victory in Pylea is not over corporeal or even political evil, (Wesley/Gunn help change the hierarchy of the society, and he never [needs to] defeat Groo), but instead a triumph over the evil inside himself. This resonates exactly with what Holland told Angel in that scene in 'Epiphany'. Evil is inside people, not in some Other place or hell dimension.


[> [> Re: Response to lunasea from origial Odyssey thread -- lunasea, 07:14:23 03/06/03 Thu

Thank you again for the compliments. My biggest strength is that I am good at seeing the overall picture of something. Then I can go back and see how individual things fit into that. I am trying not to discuss S2 in context of S3 and 4 for this thread or even in relation to BtVS that much. They may be different genres (AtS is more action-adventure and BtVS is more of a drama), but they really do have the same overall theme which is what Joss constructs the Buffyverse from.

IWRY is my favorite episode out of both shows. I did like it for stylistic reasons. I don't think that Angel gave up being human because he couldn't handle being weak or needing to be saved by Buffy. How many times has she bailed him out of trouble or nursed him back to health? In the next episode, "Hero," he tells Doyle why he did it, "Buffy and I were together until - we realized it couldn't be. - We don't belong to ourselves. We belong to the world, fighting."

That sentiment reminded me of Spike's "love's bitch." Spike doesn't belong to himself, but to love. Angel and Buffy don't belong to themselves, they belong to the world. In an incredibly selfish world, these sentiments on the surface look beautiful. All three of them are willing to put their own desires aside for something greater. It reminds me of an O Henry story.

The oracles said that Angel was a higher being because he was willing to put everything aside for another. The key is the word "willing." Buffy and Angel are so ready to sacrifice everything, that they do so without finding alternatives. Their own desires don't factor into their decisions at all.

Buffy had to actually think about whether to attempt to recurse Angel. She was ready to logic herself out of it and do the hardest thing, because she was the only one that wanted Angel back. What changed her mind when she looked at the ring? Was it how much she loved him or how he felt about her? Was she getting her boyfriend back as Xander accussed her of or saving Angel? I would go with the later. The ring was how he felt about her. Love, friendship and loyalty. She couldn't base her decision on her desire, but she could show those thing to Angel by saving him. She could acknowledge his feelings.

This season in "Selfless" she was ready to kill her friend rather than find an alternative. (Interesting in both those instances, it is Willow that finds the alternative).

Angel is the same way. He will gladly put lots of pain on himself if he thinks it helps others. We could find lots of examples of this.

In IWRY they both get taken out of the equation, because they are both champions with a mission. They no longer belong to themselves, but to the world. They couldn't be together if it cost anyones their lives. Before Angel could make decisions, such as leaving Sunnydale, based on Buffy. Buffy could make decisions, such as the resouling or killing Faith, based on Angel.

This cuts them off from the world. They are Champions of the People. They are both people and should factor into their decisions. They shouldn't base their decisions solely on themselves, but a balance should be reached. They do this when it comes to their friends. How many people died in "Graduation Day" that would have been saved if Buffy could have sacrificed Willow in "Choices?" The biggest example of this on AtS is what Angel was willing to do to get Connor back. They will go to the ends of the earth for their friends, but not for themselves.

This sets up a superiority complex. When they take themselves out of their decisions, they take themselves out of humanity. They protect humans. They are above them. Buffy is the Law and Angel is the Champion. That can all be traced back to the idea that they don't belong to themselves.

Not even sure where I was going with that any more. I tend to do that. Angel says in "Epiphany" that he doesn't get everything yet. If we take his epiphanies as complete, then we don't leave any place for him to grow. IWRY showed both how amazing Angel was and what his problem was. Nothing in the Buffyverse is a complete triumph.

[> [> [> 'Nothing in the Buffyverse is a complete triumph' -- Tchaikovsky, 11:05:10 03/06/03 Thu

And no-one in the Buffyverse is perfect. Angel isnot a perfect Champion, Buffy not a perfect Hero. Angel had had one love in 243 years, and tried to make it work for a whole year, (Season Three), after it was clear that it should have been doomed. Then, after a couple of admittedly fruitful missions in LA, he is granted the ability to be exactly the kind of lover that he always wanted to be to Buffy. To grow old gracefully, rather than see her rot like the Mayor's wife. Given this, I don't see his decision as likely. Angel is not perfect, and and his calling is not for his own redemption. There is an act of incredible self-sacrifice going on in 'I Will Remember You', but he also sacrifices Buffy's hopes. Ultimately, it is his decision- his life. But a decision to be human would not have been a passing of the Powers test, if a test it was. They want him as their Champion. Going back to live with Buffy would have been a selfish act in some ways, but Angel is not above making those.

You write:
Angel is the same way. He will gladly put lots of pain on himself if he thinks it helps others. We could find lots of examples of this.

Sometimes, yes. But not always. Because Angel, although not human is a human character. He tries to make the relationship with Buffy work in Season Three when it would have been wiser and less selfish to walk away. He, despite being forced, drinks from Buffy in 'Graduation Day'. These aren't wrong things to do, but it shows he is not always the one to bear the brunt of the pain. Sometimes he will displace the pain. Angel is not a perfect character, and so his realisations of how to live are small and sometimes temporary. Hence I come back to your ultimate message: "Nothing in the Buffyvese is a complete triumph", but having taken a completely different journey throughout.

It's like that puzzle where you see two faces in profile or a candlestick. Different perspectives. Mine is that 'I Will Remember You' is not feasible. Yours is that it is. We have nothing to tell us which is right, because both are in a bizarrely subjective universe. That's the wonderful thing about the shows though. We're not given the answers, we're asked the questions.


'I'm a dope' - my slow-witted realization from Selfless rerun -- dream, 12:13:24 03/05/03 Wed

So, how did I managed to miss that Anya's "lame-ass, made-up maiden name" was ***CHRISTINA EMMANUELLA*** Jenkins? Sometimes I need to be hit over the head.

God, I'm bored at work today. Ever have a job where the most important thing you do is show up? I still have 1.75 hours left....

[> But I'm dopier. -- Arethusa, 12:45:49 03/05/03 Wed

I hate to admit it, but I don't get the significance. Could you explain? (blush)

However I did find the lyrics to Anya's song at Hellmouth Central:

"Mrs." (Vocals by Emma Caulfield, Lyrics by Joss Whedon)
Mr. Xander Harris
That's what he is to the world outside
That's the name he carries with pride
I'm just lately Anya
Not very much to the world, I know
All these years with nothing to show
I've boned a troll, I've wreaked some wrath,
But on the whole, I've had no path
I like to bowl, I'm good with math,
But who am I?
Now I reply

I'm the Mrs.
I will be his Mrs.
Mrs. Anya Christina Emmanuella Jenkins Harris

What's the point of loving
I mean except for the sweaty part
What's the point of losing your heart?
Maybe if you're lucky
Being a pair makes you twice as tall
Maybe you're not losing at all
No need to cover up my heart
Plus see above re: sweaty part
So maybe love is pretty smart
And so am I
I found my guy

And I'll be Mrs.
I will be his Mrs.
Mrs. Anya lame-ass-made-up-maiden-name Harris

We'll never part
Not if we can
And if we start
Then here's my plan
I'll show him what bliss is
Welcome him with kisses
'Cause this is a Mrs. who misses her man
He's my Xander and he's awfully swell
It makes financial sense as well
Although he can be
I'll never tell
Just stand aside
Here comes the bride

I'll be Mrs.
I will be his Mrs.
I will be...

[> [> Re: But I'm dopier. -- dream, 13:04:48 03/05/03 Wed

Her names are two female variants on names of Christ:
Christ - ina
Emmanuel - la
Anya is willing to give her life for the frat boys at the end, so I'm pretty sure the symbolism is deliberate.

Can I just say that Selfless is one of the best episodes ever? Not that it needs to be said again, but it does stand up to repeated viewing...

[> [> [> I agree with your last paragraph! (slight Selfless spoiler) -- WickedBuffy, 13:14:59 03/05/03 Wed

... and after seeing it again last night I'm even more certain that Willow has severe performance anxiety regarding magic. She showed tremendous power when she zapped that thing out the window! It's when she's under pressure she seems to fold.

PS I didn't realize what that middle name meant either, thanks for it being asked and answred!

[> [> [> The symbolism is a little older -- Rook, 16:21:38 03/05/03 Wed

The name actually first came up way back in "Checkpoint" - So if the symbolism's supposed to be there, it's definitely older than Selfless:

From Checkpoint:

Anya: Anya Christina Emanuella Jenkins, twenty years old. Born on the fourth of July, and don't think there weren't jokes about that my whole life, mister, 'cause there were. "Who's our little patriot?" they'd say, when I was younger, and therefore smaller and shorter than I
am now.

BTVS scenes I DON'T want to see in the ending episodes (possible really VAGUE spoilers) -- WickedWondering ::I will shriek::, 12:34:43 03/05/03 Wed

Dawn seducing Andrew.

Buffy giving another "You All Suck" speech wearing army fatigues and smoking a cigar.

Any of the Scoobies suddenly being revealed as The First. (Not because FE is suddenly there, but because it means that person is dead.) sidenote: I will throw something at the tv.

Buffy waking up and trying to decide what to wear for her second day as a freshman at Sunnydale High.

Xander waking up and realizing that if he had really known CPR, Buffy wouldn't have drowned the day before.

Willow waking up and realizing she'd overslept, missing her first Wicca Meeting. Decides she doesn't want to go to them anyway.

Anybody waking up and realizing it was all a dream/nightmare.

Any squickiness concerning Giles.

Anya throwing her own body in front of Xanders to save him from an oncoming . And dying in his arms.

Wood making Spike hand over the leather coat and saying "we're even".

The hallways of the highschool littered with broken SIT bodies.

Kennedy getting killed. sidenote: I will throw two somethings at the tv.

Spike throwing himself on the just-opening seal as a soul sacrifice to reseal it.

Buffy joining him.

Dawn walking off into the sunset of a post-apocalypse world with Buffy & Spikes ashes stowed in a small jar tied around her waist.

[> A few more -- Gyrus, 12:53:48 03/05/03 Wed

Anybody saying "I will love you forever" to anybody else.

Buffy snapping out of her catatonia in the mental hospital.

Wood dying to save Spike or vice versa.

Joyce leading Buffy up the stairway to Heaven.

Andrew saving the day by summoning flying monkeys.

[> [> Hey! What's wrong with flying monkeys? -- ponygoyle (whose cousin is a flying monkey), 13:04:08 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> Do you WANT to hear Andrew use the phrase 'My little pretties'? -- Gyrus, 13:39:36 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Oh yeah! -- pellenaka (big Andrew fan), 13:51:49 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Hmm, would the flying monkeys wear white hats or black hats? -- WickedBuffy (and do they know Willows monkey pal?), 14:07:10 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> They would wear Golden Caps, and little monkeypants. -- Arethusa, 14:14:00 03/05/03 Wed

Angel's flying monkeys would wear a little fez, like Willow's pal.

[> [> I Agree With All of These, Except... -- Rhys, 04:03:42 03/06/03 Thu

Kennedy dying. I hate hate hate hate hate Kennedy. If she does NOT die, I will throw three somethings at the TV.

All the rest I agree with, though.

[> [> [> Then start stockpiling, because-- -- HonorH, 10:08:21 03/06/03 Thu

They simply cannot kill another Willow girlfriend (unless they kill Willow as well, but hey, more lesbians dying would only incense the fans even more). Kennedy *will* live, so I'd advise you to get used to her. That or surround yourself with stuffed animals when you watch the finale so you don't inadvertantly murder your TV.

[> So we DO want Joss to work stylish flying monkeys into the finale? -- WickedSimian, 16:19:28 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> Yes, if Honorificus will pick out their wardrobe. -- Arethusa, 17:29:28 03/05/03 Wed

[> Reactions to your scenes-you-don't-wanna-see: -- HonorH, 23:08:33 03/05/03 Wed

Dawn seducing Andrew.

No offense to Tom Lenk (who's adorable in a hobbity way), but bleah! Take a lesson from Cordy, Dawnie: don't do anything (or anybody) you'll regret if the world doesn't end.

Buffy giving another "You All Suck" speech wearing army fatigues and smoking a cigar.

Buffy Castro? Buffy Patton?

Any of the Scoobies suddenly being revealed as The First. (Not because FE is suddenly there, but because it means that person is dead.) sidenote: I will throw something at the tv.

No. No dying, please. We doesn't likes the dying, no, we doesn't, Precious!

Anybody waking up and realizing it was all a dream/nightmare.

Gads, that would suck! I'd feel so cheated I'd heave my TV out the window (which wouldn't do too much, seeing as I'm on a ground floor, but the sentiment would be there).

Any squickiness concerning Giles.

Giles and squick don't go together. Keep the squick away from the Giles.

Anya throwing her own body in front of Xanders to save him from an oncoming . And dying in his arms.

Or, may I add, vice-versa.

Wood making Spike hand over the leather coat and saying "we're even".

Actually, this has possibilities, depending on the lead-up to said scene. I do think Spike needs to give up the coat, but I'm hoping Faith ends up with it.

The hallways of the highschool littered with broken SIT bodies.

Great. Now you've got Honorificus drooling.

Kennedy getting killed. sidenote: I will throw two somethings at the tv.

Not a chance, my lamb. After all the flak Joss & Co. caught for killing off Tara, they can't kill off another lesbian *or* another WillowLover. This puts Kennedy in the well-nigh unprecedented position of actually improving her odds of survival by getting involved with a major character.

Spike throwing himself on the just-opening seal as a soul sacrifice to reseal it.

Again, has possibilities, depending on the lead-up. I'd accept a Spikean Sacrificial Redemption (or Redemptive Sacrifice) as long as it makes sense within the context of the show and isn't hokey.

Buffy joining him.

No. We don't want that. I want Buffy to live, and to live as a normal person--not as the Slayer. She's earned that much.

Dawn walking off into the sunset of a post-apocalypse world with Buffy & Spikes ashes stowed in a small jar tied around her waist.

As much as I don't want that either, kewl image!

And no flying monkeys, either. Honorificus says they simply cannot be made fashionable, no matter what you dress them in.

[> [> What if the flying monkeys wear togas? -- lunasea, 07:22:09 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> Wouldn't work. Believe me, I know. -- Honorificus (Sartorially Splendid), 11:07:25 03/06/03 Thu

I've tried everything for the little losers, and none of it looks even remotely convincing. I even tried little Quidditch robes, and they still looked silly (besides which, the capes got tangled in their wings). Finally had to give up on them as minions. Anything you can't dress up or at least shove into monk's robes is pretty damned useless in my estimation.

[> Re: BTVS scenes I DON'T want to see in the ending episodes (possible really VAGUE spoilers) -- drew the de lurker, 23:14:26 03/05/03 Wed

How about this scene?
"Yes, Willow, I was the first all along." Kennedy whispers in the dying Willows ear. "Quite the evil lesbian stereotype, am I not?"

[> Or how 'bout these -- Tyreseus, 02:57:22 03/06/03 Thu

Drew Goddard appears as the physical manifestation of the first to kill off all the following characters: Clem, Amy Madison, Oz, Kit and Carlos, Riley and Mrs. Riley, Ethan Rayne and Harmony.

The scoobies return home after defeating The First to find that their little sister, Mary Sue (the *new* Vampire Slayer - fashioned from the blue glowy energy that *is* the slayer essence by mysterious British monks) has ordered pizza and ransacked Dawn's closet against direct orders.

Buffy dies. Spike and Angel hug in their shared grief.

The First is easily dispatched in episode 20 (not actually "the first" but just an annoying poltergeist of sorts). In 21-22, we discover that Xander Harris is the human incarnation of Satan and has been manipulating the Scobbies all along. Willow saves him with a touching speech.

They blow up Sunnydale High to stop The First.

Freddie Prinze, Jr. appears in the curtain call "goodbye" broadcast in the half-hour following the finale.

[> [> You forgot the biggest one -- KdS, 04:43:14 03/06/03 Thu

Angel gets shanshued in LA, appears in Sunnydale in the last five minutes of 7:22, and he and Buffy instantly fall into each others arms and race off to the registry office. Not trying to upset B/A shippers - I'd have no problem if it was implied that they would end up together, but they need to reassess their relationship in the light of all the development they've gone through in the last four seasons.

[> [> [> Or worse... -- KdS, 04:47:21 03/06/03 Thu

Angel shanshues in LA, turns up in Sunnydale in the last five minutes of 7:22 and finds everyone weeping over Buffy's corpse... ;-)

[> [> Love this one... -- Tchaikovsky, 05:45:13 03/06/03 Thu

The First is easily dispatched in episode 20 (not actually "the first" but just an annoying poltergeist of sorts). In 21-22, we discover that Xander Harris is the human incarnation of Satan and has been manipulating the Scobbies all along. Willow saves him with a touching speech.

Now that would be a mislead...


[> Re: BTVS scenes I DON'T want to see in the ending episodes (possible really VAGUE spoilers) -- Rahael, 04:28:50 03/06/03 Thu

Dawn walking off into the sunset of a post-apocalypse world with Buffy & Spikes ashes stowed in a small jar tied around her waist.


[> [> Wicked... -- KdS, 04:46:02 03/06/03 Thu

Is this a specific film or TV reference? I have an inchoate memory floating round my head, and it's really annoying?

[> [> [> Re: Wicked... -- Rahael, 04:51:11 03/06/03 Thu

I don't actually know!! It does have the ring of a bathetic cliche though....

Maybe WickedBuffy could help us out.

[> [> [> [> bathetic ! inchoate! why I just might NOT tell you now because .... -- WickedBuffy (XtWP finale spoiler), 07:38:40 03/06/03 Thu

.... I have to go look those words up.

::bracing myself against your combined semantic super powers::

okok - I don't choaties crawling around in KdS's head or Rahael to have to clean that ring around her bathetic tub.

Gabrielle did that with Xena's ashes in the finale of "Xena, Warrior Princess".

(Which I never actually saw. I boycotted the final episode when I heard Xena would die.)

Still, it's a nice visual as a stand-alone scene, don't you think? :>

[> [> [> [> [> Mr and Mrs Big piles of dust... -- Rahael, 07:51:21 03/06/03 Thu

That's what I was thinking!

Does this mean I'm in trouble with Xena fans?? Whoops!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Don't tell Rob your name Rah... -- TCH, looking around furtively, 09:40:10 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Rob's a pussycat -- Rahael, 09:48:57 03/06/03 Thu

It's Cleanthes I'm hiding from ;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Meow. ;o) -- Rob, 11:17:36 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Hee -- KdS, 08:16:24 03/06/03 Thu

Don't mean to be intimidating - the demonic place we both spent years of our lives taints us ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> LOLOL -- Rahael, 08:43:49 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Hee -- KdS, 08:18:02 03/06/03 Thu

Don't mean to be intimidating - the demonic place we both spent years of our lives taints us ;-)

[> wow I posted something that sired sires on the Boards! ::sobbing joyfully:: :> -- WickedSireatoress (An y'all made it even funnier! !) :>, 07:49:20 03/06/03 Thu

[> One more... -- ponygirl, 08:13:56 03/06/03 Thu

The spin-off is announced in the final scene as:

The Adventures of Riley & Sam

oh I'm in a baaad mood today but this thread made me smile. Thanks WickedBuffy for starting it!

[> Gotta add -- xanthe, 09:18:46 03/06/03 Thu

One thing that I really would not like to see happen is for Dawn to die. I would be really upset if any of the characters were killed, but some reason the idea that the youngest of the group who has so much life ahead of her won't survive makes me deeply sad. (Sure, if that life is lived on a Joss-controlled show it will probably be filled with pain and angst and poor romantic decisions, but if everybody else got that opportunity so should she.) I know Dawn's only about five years younger, but over the seasons our gang has lived a lot and would be a great sorrow to spare Dawn from any of the triumph and heartbreak of growing up.

JM in Seattle (thread eaten by archive already) -- Cheryl, 13:13:50 03/05/03 Wed

Gee, I start replying to WickedBuffy's request for a report on JM's Seattle appearance, do a conference call, and return to find the thread archived already. Sheesh!

Anyway . . .

I heard that JM said at the Seattle Con - there was supposed to be a Spike/Faith spin-off, but ED's decision to do the Noyce pilot for Fox instead screwed that up. He said that while Whedon promised he'd be in ANY spin-off they decided to do, he felt it was unlikely they'd do one for another year or so now. His guess was they were going to take 6 months to year off and do movies. Apparently the interesting idea they'd had was Faith. Bummer. My two favorite actors from the series in a spin-off together would have been cool. oh well, c'est la vie...

Yep, that's what he said. A Faith-Spike spinoff would have been good - lots of sparks. My concern now is that if they take a year off before doing a new show, people will already have other commitments. Since JM wants to do theater (he mentioned England, NY, Chicago, & Seattle for where he'd like to work), things might not work out, timing-wise.

Okay, so what else did he say? He hurt his knee playing Spy Kids 2 with a little relative (didn't say if it was cousin, nephew, etc.) in Modesto. Fell off the fence. Didn't do serious damage but was wearing a brace and was supposed to give it a rest, since he had a 16 hour shoot Monday with fight scenes. So, of course, he didn't sit at all during the hourlong Q&A session even though they had a chair up there for him.

Already mentioned only 3 more episodes to shoot. :-(

Sang a little of Rest in Peace. Did a little Macbeth. Nice.

Said that when he got the script for Fool for Love he was - I don't remember what he said exactly, but that he was kind of concerned because playing William hit a little too close to home. When he was growing up he was picked on a lot because of his size and he wasn't a fighter. He didn't have a father figure and his mom told him not to fight. So it was difficult for him to play William like that.

He loves the fight scenes and stunt people are some of his favorite people. He gets a lot of his aggression out doing the fight scenes, and admitted to having anger issues, but not so much the last couple of years. He was actually a lot more open about some pretty personal things than I would have expected from a celebrity.

Not dating anyone now - took 6 months off because he realized he was dating the same woman over and over again (different women, all wrong was my take on that) and wanted to figure out why that was. But he's ready to date again.

He was extremely gracious and warm. Seemed very happy. Loved his smile and laugh. Shook everyone's hand in the autograph line (3 hours of autographing I was told later) and looked everyone in the eye. Making personal contact seemed important to him. He was pretty animated when he signed my OMWF scriptbook (got it on video too! ) Made a point of saying he tries not to let all this adulation go to his head. Cleans his own toilet. ;-)

Someone asked what Spike would read and what he reads. He said Spike would like porn and someone shouted out that Spike has a soul now and JM said, "Well, I have a soul . . ." Got a good laugh. He really was a lot of fun to listen to and watch.

Also, just want to say that Andy Hallett (Lorne) and James Leary (Clem) were there, too. Leary is very funny and kind of raunchy. Reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld in looks and mannerisms. Andy seemed on the shy side and very sweet. Younger than I expected. They were on stage together and were very entertaining.

All in all, a very fun and entertaining weekend. Anyone interested in the Star Trek side of the con, just let me know.

[> Thanks for taking the time. Interesting read. -- sk, 14:04:58 03/05/03 Wed

[> "Well, I have a soul . . .' What a great response. -- Doug, 14:13:28 03/05/03 Wed

[> Thank you very much, Cheryl! I love little bits like that. :> -- WickedBuffy ::I know how that archived feeling feels::, 14:18:02 03/05/03 Wed

[> WW: Clem sighting in Cheryl's post! -- Vickie, 16:12:52 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> Thanks Vickie! Good pics ;o) -- dub, 16:49:08 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> Or, not so much... -- dub, 19:11:05 03/05/03 Wed

Okay, the "good pics" were at a site linked from the Trollop board, pictures of James Leary and other Buffy and Angel cast at the recent PBP...which I looked at just before I read the mention of Clem above...and well, y''s a thing.


[> [> [> [> Yeah, I was wondering what you meant -- Cheryl, 20:06:29 03/05/03 Wed

Since I haven't even gotten my pictures developed yet!

What is the First (mulitple parts) -- lunasea, 13:22:13 03/05/03 Wed

Here is my take on what the First is and what it is after (and how Willow, Buffy, Dawn, Angel, Spike and Andrew figure into this).

In the beginning there was only vidya. This means intelligence in Sanskrit. It is a primordial intelligence connected with space and oneness. The way it was explained to me is it is like a spacious hall where there is room to dance about, where there is no danger or knocking things over or tripping over things, for it is completely open space. We ARE this space, we are one with it.

But then we get confused, ignorance sets in and we think we are seperated from vidya. This starts the chain reaction that leads to suffering and conflict (demons in the Buffyverse). How did this happen? We became too active in that space. Because it is so spacious, we started to dance about. As our dance becomes active, we become self-conscious. "I" am dancing in this space.

The space is no longer a space. It becomes solid. It is tangible. We now have the first duality, "I" and space. We have seperated ourselves from vidya. We become overwhelmed by this idea and lost in it. We black out and when we awaken we can't see vidya any more. We just see space and us. We have . Avidya isn't real, even though we think it is. We have negated vidya in our minds, but reality is that there is still vidya.

This avidya is the First. Notice it doesn't have form. It is still actually vidya. Its power exists only in the perceptions of others. It can only project the form of the dead. Ignorance is the beginning of dependent arising (which is more a wheel than a chain) and death is the end. It causes the things in the middle, but It cannot be them. It is still part of vidya. It cannot take form, only that which returns form to vidya. The dead are part of vidya again, but when we see them as separate, we see them as avidya. It isn't the dead that the First is, just our perception that there are dead.

It is the SOURCE of evil, not evil itself. If you look at it as the ultimate evil, Uber-evil, you will miss it. "Beyond sin (evil), beyond death (form)." It "generates every being, every thought." Perception of everything comes from avidya, including the mortal coil.Avidya is a negation of vidya. It is the return to vidya that First is fighting. What in the Buffyverse would do this? Love and magic.

[> Magic and Willow (spoiler CwDP) -- lunasea, 13:27:56 03/05/03 Wed

Willow tells Giles in "Lessons" "It's all connected. The root systems, the molecules, the energy...everything's connected." Giles response was "Then why aren't you at your lesson?" Typical Joss doublespeak. The audience thinks he means why she isn't in class, but that isn't what he was saying. She gave Giles what Mrs. Harkness taught her and says "She's taught me a lot." That is when Giles asks her why she isn't in her lesson. What Giles is really saying is if Mrs. Harkness taught her so much, why wasn't Willow in that lesson she just said. It should be "It's all connected. The root systems, the molecules, the energy...ME everything's connected." That is vidya. That is the true essence of magic that Giles dosed her with last season.

Willow understands that things are connected. That is where dark magic comes from. She can manipulate things through this connection. Thing is, the true essence includes everything, not just what you want to control. Tara was very reluctant to do any magic, let alone anything remotely powerful, because of those connections. Things cause ripples because of this connection. Willow didn't understand this. She could manipulate the connections, but she saw herself and her loved ones as seperate to what was being controlled.

This isn't a new development with magic. In "Nightmares" everyone is affected. In BBB, the spell messes up because it affects all the women. In "Tabula Rasa" not only Buffy and Tara are affected, but everyone at the magic box, including Willow. Everything is connected. When magic goes wrong on the show, it is because of this connection.

Giles tells Willow she is connected to a great power. Actually, the connection is this great power. Willow understands the connection partially. That cannot be taken from her. What she needs to do is understand it fully and how she is a part of it. Her concern shouldn't be going evil, but the ripples that she can cause. We see in "Buffy v Dracula" how little she is concerned about this. That has been Giles' concern all along. What happened season 6 with Willow had been built up since season 2.

Why does the First not want Willow to practice magic? Because then she will understand vidya and the illusion that avidya really is. Vidya doesn't mean that we don't dance or that we don't think there is an "I." It means we realize these are illusions, what we call in Zen, the first creation. Avidya is thinking these are real. Willow understands how connected everything is, but she still hasn't put herself in her lesson. When she does, she will be one with vidya again. She won't be afraid of going evil and she will be awesome to behold.

It isn't the level of power that the First is concerned about with Willow Rosenberg. It is her level of understanding. It doesn't think that she will be able to zap It with her magic. She will just leave it and return to vidya. That is one part of Willow Rosenberg. She is more than just a witch. She is also Buffy Anne Summer's best friend.

[> [> Buffy, Love and Dawn (spoilers up to Get it Done) -- lunasea, 13:37:33 03/05/03 Wed

Buffy is who the First is most interested in. An alteration in the mystical forces around the Slayer line caused by Buffy is what the First is taking advantage of. What are those mystical forces? We learned in "Get it Done" that the First Slayer was infused with the heart/essence of a demon. The Beljoxa's Eye in "Showtime" tells Giles "The mystical forces surrounding the Chosen line have been irrevocably altered. Become... unstable.Vulnerable." It says "surrounding," not in or infused with. There is something more to the Chosen line than that demon heart.

Mystical=magic. In "Grave" we learned a bit more about magic. "The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and power... the magic she took from me tapped into ... the spark of humanity she had left." The mystical forces around the Slayer line tap into their humanity. The First is trying to get Buffy away from that humanity.

What is humanity? Buffy thought she was loosing hers season 5. She asks the Spirit Guide in "Intervention" about it. The Guide responds with "You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it... Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift." Our humanity is our ability to love. The soul is what allows Angel "to care."

Magic acknowledges that everything is connected. Love also acknowledges that connection. In "Grave" when Willow is dosed she feels everyone's pain. Giles has to use magic to do this. Buffy does it another way. She is full of love, but because she can feel everyone's pain, she pulls away from it. Buffy doesn't have normal human love. She has brighter than fire, blinding love. That is what gives her strength to be a Slayer that has lasted this long.

In "Intervention" the Spirit Guide tells Buffy that the only way she risks loosing love is if she rejects it. If she rejects love, then she looses her humanity and that demon essence can take over. She will be reduced to what we saw in Restless of the First Slayer or will she. As she goes back to "I live in the action of death, the blood cry, the penetrating wound," she won't like this. She will want to die.

We saw it happen with two Slayers, Faith in "Five By Five" and Buffy in "FFL." Typically the titles refer to more than one thing (usually 3 things). That is the beauty of the multilayered writing ME does. Spike isn't the only fool for love in that episode. We have Riley who even though he thinks that Buffy doesn't love him is sticking around. We also have Buffy herself. In this her death wish has kicked in. Ever since the Enjoining Spell, Buffy feels like she is loosing her humanity (hence why she can't connect with Riley). She is on the hunt more and she is nastier to Spike. As her humanity/love leaves, she wants to die.

We see Spike in the flashbacks being a fool for love, love of woman and more importantly love of a good fight. In FFL we see Buffy's loves conflicting. The demon heart has the love of the hunt/kill, but Buffy has a true love for people. She accepts being slayer because she cares so much. As a fool for love, she is becoming more like the First Slayer and her other side can't handle this and wants to die. What ultimately saves Buffy is her mother being sick. In her tears she loves incredibly deeply. When that is gone, she doubts her ability to love.

That is how it works in the Slayer line. When they start to loose their humanity, they loose vidya. Then they die. The mystical forces move onto someone else and avidya can't step in. Not this time. As Buffy pulled away from the fire, she didn't die. Avidya can step in.

Buffy loves her best friend very much. We got an incredibly touching scene at the end of "Same Time Same Place." The First doesn't want Buffy to have that outlet. It wants her to not have anything to love and to reject love. The more Buffy loves, the more she will realize vidya. The more Buffy rejects love the stronger Avidya will be. That is why the First wanted Willow to kill herself.

It is also why it uses fear. Fear isolates us. We start to worry about ourselves and we ignore the connection we have with others. Willow is concerned about whether she will go evil. She is almost completely self-absorbed.

So is Field Marshall von Buffy. She is so wrapped up in the physical battle that she is completely ignoring Dawn. Dawn is what kept Buffy alive after Joyce died. Dawn is something for Buffy to love. Dawn is literally Buffy. There is an intense connection there. It is a living testament to vidya. As long as Buffy has some acknowledgment of vidya , avidya isn't in total control. The First is trying to sever the connection between Dawn and Buffy. Buffy's love is incredibly strong. She died for her sister. The First cannot go that way. Instead it tries to go through Dawn.

It did this once before, with Angel. Angel and Buffy's link is every bit as strong as Dawn and Buffy's. The two of them, with their bright fires, together really do touch vidya. Buffy did that with Dawn on the platform in "The Gift." That is why everything was "It was so ... clear ... on this spot. I remember ... how ... shiny ... and clear everything was." Her last words were all about love. Dawn is an annoying sister and even though the link between them is very strong, those vidya moments aren't that frequent.

[> Angel (no spoilers) -- lunasea, 13:34:44 03/05/03 Wed

They are with Angel. No one makes Buffy feel like Angel does and vice versa. When Buffy is with Angel things are shiny and clear. Being with Angel is like being in heaven (and heaven is vidya). There are many examples of this, but the most recent we actually got to see was "Forever" sitting under a tree with him holding her. Before "Life Serial" being with Angel actually temporarily snaps her out of her depression.

They are so connected that she can feel him when he is around. She was in his dreams. Why? If you have two objects that are linked by a string, if you pull on that string, both feel it. The First is going after the Slayer line and Buffy has dreams about the girls dying. Buffy is connected to the Potentials through the Slayer line. She may be having dreams about her mother because of their connection. Buffy has some strong connections (perhaps so strong she brought Angel back from hell).

The First is trying to sever those. Death isn't enough. Buffy still loved Angel even when he was dead. Her connection to him and therefor vidya was still there. That may even be what generated her dreams at the beginning of season 3. In any dream in the Buffyverse, the question is what comes from the dreamer and what comes from elsewhere. That is what makes "Restless" so hard to interpret. The dreams are a combination of the dreamer, the First Slayer and the PTB.

In "Amends," the First tries to get Angel to kill Buffy or at least to try to. In doing this, he would have severed their connection, whether he succeeded or not. Suicide would have done the same thing. The scene doesn't end with "Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together." Buffy continues after that. We see how she would have felt if Angel did commit suicide. She would have completely rejected love. Both actions, murder and suicide, would have had the same effect. That is why "You're not supposed to die. This isn't the plan. But it'll do."

The timing of the First is interesting season 3. Angel comes back from Hell and is in a weakened condition, ripe for mind games. No First. It doesn't show up until AFTER Buffy says she can't see Angel any more. She has rejected love, but not completely. Buffy and Angel both acknowledge that they love each other. They just don't want to. From this they turn away from the connection they have. Avidya has a foothold now. It wants more, so it takes steps to not only have them not want to be together, but to actually kill their love.

The First has the same problem that all evil does. It underestimates the power of good/love/vidya. It not only can't make Angel and Buffy hate each other, but It gets them back together. When Buffy says "And we can do it together" vidya won. As usual, the title applies to many things in the episode. Angel is going to make amends for his past. Willow makes amends to Oz. Buffy makes amends for breaking up with Angel. Buffy fixes the foothold the First had. It goes away after this and has to wait for its new opportunity.

[> Spike, Andrew and conclusion (spoilers up to Storyteller) -- lunasea, 13:42:51 03/05/03 Wed

It appears in the form of yet another souled vampire. Spike wants nothing more than to touch vidya. Poor Spike. As a soulless vampire he was incapable of this. Can't love with all your soul if you don't have a soul. He goes and gets his soul, so now rejection of him is avidya. Buffy unknowingly gave the First another foothold in the world. Buffy doesn't have to have love like she does for Angel. Spike is a creature in need. Turning her back on him is an act that is contrary to compassion (another form of love and vidya). Buffy is shutting Spike out because she doesn't know how she feels about him. Shutting someone out is avidya. She is scared to find out how she feels about him. What would be scarier, loving him or not? Either way, she isn't turning pain into strength.

The First looses his hold over Spike. Buffy doesn't just turn her back on Spike. She may not be able to handle him in "Beneath You," but in "Him" she does get him out of the basement and tries to help. In "Sleeper," she completely reaches out to him. Vidya is winning again. What ultimately gives Spike the strength to not circumb to the First's machinations is "she believes in me." It might not be Angel/Buffy love, but it is a connection, an important one. The First couldn't sever the connection between Buffy and Spike, but it isn't done with him yet. Wonder what It is waiting for.

Andrew is an interesting character. He latches onto those around him, but there is no real connection there. Warren didn't really like him. He was more of a lackey than a friend. The First uses his obedience to Warren, his desired, but not real connection, in order to sever his only real connection, Jonathan. In this action, Andrew gave himself completely over to avidya. Even though he knew it wasn't Warren, he still cut himself off from everyone. It wasn't the blood of Jonathan that primed the seal. It was the surrender of Andrew.

The Scoobies have Andrew as a guestage. He sees the amazing connections they have to each other. Has Andrew even gotten to see real love before? I doubt it. He is Tucker's brother. Seeing Kennedy and Willow making out was nothing, but seeing Xander and Anya talk in "Storyteller" really moved him. Showing his lack of interest in Kennedy and Willow wasn't about him being gay, but to draw a contrast between how Xander and Anya's real exchange of emotions affected him.

Seeing this sort of love and connectedness showed him what he really wants. It is what we all want. When people don't get it, evil results. When Angel looses his soul, he looses this connection and goes evil. Faith turns evil because of a lack of connection. She is saved when Angel gives her the opportunity for it. We could do entire posts about Spike and his desire for connection and his inability to get this soulless. When Willow looses Tara, her connection, she goes evil.

Andrew sees this and he is affected by it. When the First comes to him in "First Date" he is able to refuse. Again the title refers to three things. It is Buffy's first date with Wood. It is Xander's first date after Anya. It is also the time the First appears to Andrew, a sort of date with the First. Andrew goes to the Scoobies and tells them about this rather than listen to the First again. He choose vidya over avidya. After that he really does try to fit in with the Scoobies.

His redemption starts then, but Buffy pushes it ahead in "Storyteller." Andrew builds up these stories which feature false connections (the Buffy and Spike stuff at the beginning was great). Buffy forces Andrew to leave that behind and see the real connection he had and what he did. He killed his best friend. In seeing that he choose to sever this connection, he opens up the possibility of really being able to connect with someone, rather than build up stories about it. The episode was all about the real connections v the false ones. It was a fitting episode for Xander/Anya to be resolved.

Andrew's tears connected him back to Jonathan. In killing Jonathan, Andrew severed their connection (avidya). In acknowledging and mourning that, Andrew reestablished that connection (vidya). That is why the seal stopped working. The one that started it didn't belong to avidya any more.

Vidya is the connections we all have. Anything that disavows these connections is avidya or the First. Our humanity lies in caring about each other. Evil results when we don't. The Slayer needs to maintain her connection to vidya. If she doesn't, she dies. If she doesn't die, she gives avidya a foothold to extinguish the slayer line. It was a system that worked well, until Buffy Anne Summers came along. She has changed the forces forever. Every time she rejects love, the First will have a foothold. We will have to see how ME resolves this.

[> [> That was magnificent, Lunasea! (spoilers up to Storyteller) -- WickedSpeechless :>, 14:02:27 03/05/03 Wed

That was incredible. Thank you THANK YOU very much for posting it and for having the heart and mind to come up with it all.

I think I understand it - for example: Woods overwhelming need for revenge about his mother is avidya, which makes FE happy. It's not about love and connection to his mother (which would be vidya). But if Wood truly forgave Spike and realized revenge wasn't the way - Wood would then be more to the vidya part of things?

As for what the FE still wants with Spike... perhaps if Spike lets Buffy down in some horrible way, Buffy will close down and avidya happens. I don't think Spike will lose his connection to Buffy, though, no matter what events transpire around him. But I do still feel that in Buffys perception, there are still ways Spike could let her down. And since she's letting him in closer and closer, the fall with be harder and harder. Perfect for avidya. Spike being closer to Buffy could be considered an advantage for FE. Because it allows the hurt and therefore separation (avidya) to be even greater. As we've seen before, FE did keep trying regarding Buffy and Angel even though the connection was clearly incredibly strong. Spike could still possibly be a weak link, then. Buffys achilles heel.

[> [> Yes, Extremely Interesting! -- frisby, 14:06:51 03/05/03 Wed

Your post is extremely interesting. I now must wonder how much the ME team draw from the philosophy of India. Others have shown this in other ways. Maybe after it's all said and done the "philosophy" behind the shows (and "in" the writers) will finally be exposed or revealed.

[> [> [> I always wonder how much of it is from their subconscious. -- WickedBuffy ::speculating the percentage of sub & con::, 14:13:41 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> UNconscious probably wrote the underlying universe -- lunasea, 09:22:57 03/06/03 Thu

I seriously doubt that Freud's warehouse for repressed memories has anything to do with the show. Dr. Jung's idea of the collective unconscious probably has a lot of influence though.

If it were just demons, I would say that the unconscious writes more, but since the demons are actually symbolic representations of the more mundane things the conscious writes, I would say that ME is aware of much of what they write.

It is something I have thought about before.

[> [> [> [> [> Maybe the talk circuit eventually? -- frisby, 11:31:53 03/06/03 Thu

After the series is actually over wouldn't it be interesting if the ME team (individually, not as a group) made the talk circuit or wrote books or gave interviews revealing the inner workings of the team when they were planning the texts and subtexts and forestadowings and past recurrences etc???

I'd pay to hear a lecture by any of them. Maybe some of them will attend the conference in Nashville May 20004??

[> [> [> [> [> [> That would be cool, but I doubt it -- lunasea, 13:03:21 03/06/03 Thu

I think they should put out a book and call it "We Aren't that Deep, really we aren't."

As long as the Buffyverse exists in some form, whether it is Ripper, another spin-off, Angel, the comics or the books, I can't see them giving this completely away.

Jane Espenson had a great article on the "Firefly" site about how a script is put together. If people haven't seen it, I would be happy to post it here. I saved it.

[> [> [> Doesn't have to be India -- lunasea, 14:19:46 03/05/03 Wed

The idea is pretty much the foundation of every spiritual system and is central to New Age schools. The only thing that is different is the words used.

It doesn't even have to be spiritual. The best explanation of this came from Eddie Van Halen. He was giving an interview about Van Halen III and why he hated digital recording. He said a lot got lost in the cleaness of digital.

"It isn't about the ones and the zeros, but the space between them."

Buffy and Angel are written around their hearts. It makes sense for the Buffyverse to be centered on connection. That is what makes the shows so great. As JM said, "the ending is going to make us love more." Hasn't the show always been about this?

[> [> Marvelous! -- pellenaka (trying to post this for the third time), 14:27:46 03/05/03 Wed

Showing his lack of interest in Kennedy and Willow wasn't about him being gay, but to draw a contrast between how Xander and Anya's real exchange of emotions affected him.

That's an excellent conclusion. I've never seen it made before but I really like it.

A Question of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- Scroll, 17:12:07 03/05/03 Wed

Ahem. My attempt at a review of last night's (or, for the Americans, tonight's) episode of Angel.


Connor: "Angelus needs to be destroyed. And I'm the Destroyer."

Faith: "This is a salvage mission, not search-and-destroy."

Who is the salvager, who is the salvagee? Four years ago, Angel tried to salvage Faith in "Consequences". He got through to her a year later, and Faith took her first step to redemption by turning herself in to the police. From the ease of her break-out, it's clear she voluntarily stayed in prison for three years because she believed she had a chance to be redeemed, a chance she got because of Angel.

Wes couldn't salvage Lilah. It seems almost inevitable that their relationship would come to a messy, fatal end. But in Lilah's death Wesley regains something he had lost: the belief that people can be redeemed. As Hallucination!Lilah says, this belief in redemption is something Angel taught Wes. (I'll admit Wes surprised me; I was looking forward to a reprise of "Passion", with a Giles-like rage against the vampire that had murdered his girlfriend. Instead, Wesley reacts with hope and compassion.)

Wes and Faith take on a new mission: to salvage Angel.

Unfortunately for Cordy, Wes and Faith (with some unexpected help from Angelus) end up ruining her carefully laid-out plans. The Beast has been destroyed. The sun is shining once again. Angelus can't be controlled; he's not playing by Cordy's rules. And her power over Connor is waning with the boy's new crush on the powerful Slayer. So she tries to salvage the situation; she drops a bombshell that astounds a disbelieving Connor, and brings him firmly under her control once more.

"We use whatever tools we have."

The Fang Gang keeps playing every card, hoping for a break. Connor wonders why they bother, since nothing ever works out the way it should. Well, sometimes things do go their way, as Lorne's migraine testifies.

Cordelia plays all her cards as well, but seems to be losing ground. She needs Angel soulless and on the loose, but ends up losing the Beast to Angelus. She needs Angelus alive, but that puts her at odds with a rebellious Connor. Faith's arrival strains Cordy's control over the Fang Gang, and over Connor. So she plays her last card: she pulls out the old cliché of "We're having a baby!" (I'm sure many fans are crying 'foul!' right now. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't mind it. It's evil. And an evil Cordy is a good thing -- or at least more interesting than St. Cordelia.)

Angelus, that clever bastard, also uses the tools he has at hand. He plays the Beast; he plays Faith. While Angel bravely battles the Beast and slays him in honourable combat, Angelus cleverly uses Faith to soften up the Beast, then stabs the big hunk o' rock in the back with his own bone-dagger. Too bad about the sun, though. Ah well, Angelus philosophises, you win some, you lose some.

"This is Faith. The Vampire Slayer."

The Beast: "This is all you are. I had heard a Slayer possessed great strength... There is no real power here. You are weak. You're nothing."

What is a Slayer? Why are they always girls? What is a Watcher, and what is his relationship with the Slayer? Why are the Bringers contracting out to prison inmates to do their dirty work?

It had to be Faith. "Angel's the only one in my life that's never given up on me, there's no way I'm giving up on him." Aren't Slayers supposed to slay vampires? But Faith makes it clear her loyalty is to Angel, and she puts Connor down when he steps out of line.

Connor, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne are amazed by Faith's confidence. With defeat after demoralising defeat, the Fang Gang has started to lose any hope of salvaging their situation. Now a new hero has come and things are looking up. More precisely, they're looking up and seeing a bright, shining sun. And they think Faith did it. She's the Slayer, of course she'll have Angelus hog-tied and back before dinner.

But Faith knows better. And so does Angelus. And so did the Beast before he crumbled into gravel. Faith couldn't kill the Beast. And now she's probably even wondering if she is strong enough to take on Angelus. And yet...

And yet, when Faith swung those chains and let in the light, I cheered. Because she is the Slayer. She'll fight Angelus and, win some or lose some, she'll be the Slayer. Because she doesn't fight for her life -- she fights like fighting is her life.

"Thought you could use some release. Feels natural?"
"It's like riding a biker."

Random stuff I loved, liked, and thought were interesting:

Wesley: "You didn't love me! You couldn't."
Lilah: "We'll never know now, will we?"

I would kill to see Alexis Denisof on stage. He and SR were stunning, tragic, thoughtful, poignant. And Wesley's quavering disbelief -- "What?" -- at Connor's declaration that Lilah had to be destroyed. BTW, am I the only one who was kind of questioning Wesley's sanity for the first half of this episode? He was downright creepy at times, but also lost and near tears, like a little boy.

Gunn: "I'll tell you whose fault it is: Powers that sit on their behinds sending useless, cryptic messages."

Poor Gunn. Only last episode you were thanking the Powers for their timely intervention. Now that you've discovered a whole new level of Bad, you're starting to wonder if the PTB are really as good and almighty as they advertise.

Wesley: "Maybe you're rusty."
Faith: "Maybe I am."
Wesley: "Maybe we should find out."

I love, love, love Faith and Wesley, Slayer/Watcher Team, Take 2. I think Faith will be really good for Wesley right now, and maybe Wesley can be of some good to Faith as well. It's an interesting comparison to Buffy/Giles and Justine/Holtz, and even to Faith/the Mayor.

Four years ago, Wesley came to Sunnydale expecting to give orders and be obeyed. He didn't think to take Buffy and Faith into account as people -- only as Slayers. Now, Wesley isn't so foolish. He lets Faith take charge and backs her up at every step. He guides, he doesn't dictate. He still needs Faith as his "big gun", but he chooses Faith and not Buffy because he remembers the person behind the Slayer power. Buffy, as much as she loves/loved Angel, would take out Angelus; Faith, whose love for Angel is no less real, is determined to bring Angelus in alive.

Angelus: "Hey, Dawn. It's me."

Well, we've now got the proof that Angel actually keeps in touch with Buffy -- at least enough that Dawn will recognise him by his voice -- despite the lack of on-screen evidence.

Connor: "She's... amazing! I mean, I had no idea what a Slayer could do."
Cordelia: "A weakness for Slayers. You're definitely his son."

Awww, that's so cute! Connor has a crush on Faith! Unfortunately, it wasn't Faith who destroyed the Beast and brought back the sun -- it was Angelus. I wonder what will happen to Connor's crush when he finds that out?

Actually, I wonder if Faith will even tell the Fang Gang? They seem to need to believe in her; they need her to be their hope. Maybe letting them think she defeated the Beast is a kindness. They're sort of running low on Champions, after all. Faith is all they have left.

[Whew! That was fun. But very stressful sitting on this for 24 hours... : ) ]

[> What is it with this bloodline and Slayers? -- Doug, 18:11:42 03/05/03 Wed

You said it; great episode, tough sitting on spoilers for a day though.

That weakness for Slayers doesn't just affect both Angel and Spike, but Connor as well. Every male from Darla's bloodline falls prey to it; what is up with that? I wouldn't have been surprised if Holden had fallen victim to it as well given sufficient time.

On to other matters. Connor views the coming of Angelus almost like a blessing; goodbye moral ambiguity, hello black-and-white universe that he was taught about by Daniel Holtz. This is going to get messy when Angel gets resouled (they aren't going to leave him as Angelus). Of course, it could easily get messy before that.

In addition, Connor has picked up a disdain for magic equivalet to that of the warriors in a lot of Fatasy novels.

Loved having Faith back; particularly because her spirit wasn't broken by prison. She still is irreverent, she still has the 'tude.

Gunn: I handle myself
Faith: That's a shame

Particularly funny when compared against Calvary and Gunn's "sometimes you just have to keep whacking".

On the more serious side I loved the effectiveness with which the gang operated in this episode; if it hadn't been for Connor's insubordination they might have cought Angelus and killed the beast; who knows? I think that within the space of one episode Faith showed more leadership ability than a certain other slayer showed in all of season 7 to date.

In short: Loved the episode, loved Faith being back, loved Faith trying to save Angel, loved Gunn's maturity, Wes' decisiveness, and hope Wesley kills evil Cordy in a "Passon" style act of vengeance.

But I'm willing to compromise on that last point.

[> [> Good question, wish I had an answer! (speculations, spoilers) -- Scroll, 18:33:29 03/05/03 Wed

You said it! Angel, Spike, Connor... Next ME is gonna tell us Drusilla had a secret love affair with the Chinese Slayer from "Fool For Love". Well, it's nice to know the boys have a family resemblence ; )

Connor views the coming of Angelus almost like a blessing; goodbye moral ambiguity, hello black-and-white universe that he was taught about by Daniel Holtz.

Certainly makes things easier for Connor if he believes Angelus is the real deal, and Angel is just something he's "forced to wear". Cuz then Connor doesn't have to kill a father who actually loves him. No, he'd only be killing Angelus, a soulless demon just like any other vampire. No soul, no guilt.

Connor does raise an interesting point, though. How many people will Angelus have to kill before the Fang Gang give up the dream of salvaging Angel?

See, I have a theory which I do NOT want confirmed! So if you're spoiled, please don't tell me if I'm right or wrong!

Basically, we have yet to see Angelus kill anyone. In fact, so far we've seen him kill one vampire, save one girl from getting eaten by other vampires, and we've seen him destroy the Beast, bringing back the sun. So I gotta ask myself, is this really Angelus? Cuz it looks like Angelus, sounds like Angelus, but the actions... they're kind of a mix of Angel and Angelus, aren't they?

I mean, sticking a pen through a demon's hand is pretty cruel but not anything Angel hasn't done before. Sure, he looks like he's going to snack on that girl, but the point is he doesn't. "Angelus" has managed to kill the Beast, which is what Angel's been trying to do since "Rain of Fire/Apoc, Nowish". So tell me, how is this vampire running around L.A. any different from the Angel we've always known?

Angelus didn't even kill Lilah, fer God's sake! He just pretended he did! So my theory is that Angel/Angelus, whatever he is, is something new and different. Something that will change the ideological construct of Angel's "soul" forever.

BTW, please feel free to tell me I'm insane : )

[> [> [> Maybe that's what the ensoulment spell they tried really did. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:14:42 03/05/03 Wed

Maybe it was actually a curse, causing Angelus to be destined to do the right thing, however much he may want to do evil.

Or it could just be coincidence. Maybe, when they resoul Angel, they don't want to bother giving him new angst.

[> [> [> Re: Good question, wish I had an answer! (speculations, spoilers) -- maddog, 21:56:09 03/05/03 Wed

While you have an interesting theory you must have missed a few things. For one, Angelus fed off of Lilah even if he didn't kill her. And he didn't save that girl...he acted like he was going to and then he showed his true face and bit her. No, you're not insane...but I have to disagree on your theory. I think it's Angelus and that they need to find where Cordy put that damn soul and in a hurry.

[> [> [> [> I'm not saying Angelus is a nice guy (spoilers) -- Scroll, 22:03:41 03/05/03 Wed

I'm just wondering if maybe ME is picking up the thread where Spike left off regarding vampires and souls. Maybe the soul doesn't make that big a difference after all.

Okay, yes he was going to bite that girl. He probably would've killed Faith too. Maybe I'm just rambling... I guess what I'm saying is, Angelus and Angel aren't two different people. They have similar agendas and end up achieving the same goals.

[> [> [> [> beg to differ on a quibble :> (spoilers Salvage) -- WickedBuffy, 20:27:13 03/06/03 Thu

We didn't see Angel/Angelus actually feeding off Lilah, we saw him holding her as if he had.

Angel/Angelus didn't bite the girl.

The Angel/Angelus killing count stands at: Demons 2 and Humans 0

[> [> [> like father/like son -- lunasea, 08:09:29 03/06/03 Thu

Certainly makes things easier for Connor if he believes Angelus is the real deal, and Angel is just something he's "forced to wear". Cuz then Connor doesn't have to kill a father who actually loves him. No, he'd only be killing Angelus, a soulless demon just like any other vampire. No soul, no guilt.

Like father, like son. They are both good at dissociation so they don't have to actually deal with anything. I particularly liked in "Soulless" when Connor said "My father was a good man" and quickly replaced it with Holtz. Connor still hasn't dealt with what Holtz did to himself or how he set up Angel. Everything is still all Angelus' fault.

Cuz it looks like Angelus, sounds like Angelus, but the actions... they're kind of a mix of Angel and Angelus, aren't they?

Great pick up. I was more concerned about ME worried about how the audience would accept Angel back when he got resouled if we had to see him kill things. They had him in vamp face when he killed Jenny for this reason. Perhaps we are seeing something similar, (if he is going to be kissing Buffy any time soon).

I like your reason better. I was hoping that Angelus would be different since Angel has grown. I bet you are right. We need that stick from "The Replacement" so we can split Angel in two.

So tell me, how is this vampire running around L.A. any different from the Angel we've always known?

He doesn't care. He is just having fun. He laughs and he smiles. He is great at connecting with others.

Angelus didn't even kill Lilah, fer God's sake! He just pretended he did!

Actually he didn't even pretend. He told Wes that it wasn't what it looked like. He had Wes' old girlfriend and he didn't even torture him with some witty remark. I can't wait for Angel to get resouled and for them to start puzzling out who did actually kill Lilah.

[> [> [> Fun with soul-theories -- Gyrus, 09:00:46 03/06/03 Thu

Basically, we have yet to see Angelus kill anyone. In fact, so far we've seen him kill one vampire, save one girl from getting eaten by other vampires, and we've seen him destroy the Beast, bringing back the sun. So I gotta ask myself, is this really Angelus? Cuz it looks like Angelus, sounds like Angelus, but the actions... they're kind of a mix of Angel and Angelus, aren't they?

Here's my pet theory: Angel/Angelus DOES have a soul -- but it's not his own. Maybe Cordelia's spell gave Angelus the soul of a deceased serial killer or something so that Angelus could fool Lorne but remain a homicidal maniac. But even a killer's sould would include some vestiges of a human conscience, which might make Angelus slightly more hesitant to kill human beings.

[> [> Re: What is it with this bloodline and Slayers? -- Slainey, 19:20:24 03/05/03 Wed

Oh sure, it's easy to be a quippy and leadery when you've been safe in the sun for the last few months (even it if it a sunny prison yard.) With the rest of AI suffering from seasonal affective disorder Faith is going to look downright cheery by comparison.

I liked seeing Connor have a crush on Faith. It's the most alive he's looked since he got there.

[> [> [> Re: What is it with this bloodline and Slayers? -- Peggin, 20:01:20 03/05/03 Wed

Oh sure, it's easy to be a quippy and leadery when you've been safe in the sun for the last few months

It's also really easy to be a good leader when people actually listen to you, rather than whining and complaining and undermining your authority in public.

[> [> [> [> Also easier when you have a direct goal to give people, rather than vague preparedness. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:05:34 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Isn't that the responsibility of a leader? -- Doug, 20:52:01 03/05/03 Wed

Being a leader should not be about making the most self-important speeches; but about co-ordinating assets to achieve goals. What has Buffy done as a leader? She's stood around making speeches about the gravity of the situation, but precious little to improve that situation. She reacts to attacks, but doesn't provide goals, strategic or tactical, to those under her command. Then she blames them for her failings.

Faith comes in, utter unknown to these people. She does her best to plan out a means of achieving the AI gang's current strategic goals: Recover Angelus, and then try to fight the beast. She then interprets those into tactical goals: Since the Hyperion is warded they can leave the less able fighters there safely while using the most powerful fighters to track Angelus. She deals with insubordination very effectively when she realizes that Connor isn't trying to fullfill the same goals as the rest of the group.

The key difference between Faith and Buffy is ego. Buffy's has been swelled by everyone telling her howimportant she is, and by every apocalypse she's already stopped. Therefore she casts herself as General Buffy, Field Marshall von Summers. Faith never had that level of validation, she was always another slayer, an extra. That, and her prison time, I think have turned her into someone who doesn't Have to be a General; but is instead Leutenant Faith, who is in command until Captain Agel can return to duty. And instead of lording it over her little people she actually interacts with 2nd leutenant Wesley, Sergeant Gunn, and smacks down Corporal Connor when he gets out of line.

*That* is more what leadership is; than an endless stream of meaningless rhetoric.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Keep in mind: no one, Buffy included, has any idea of what to do. -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:03:50 03/05/03 Wed

Even before Faith arrived, AI knew what their objective was. They needed to stop Angelus (either through dusting or through capture), and Faith just needed to coordinate how that would play out. In the Sunnydale situation, there's the little problem that their goal (defeating the First Evil) can't be done unless they find some crucial info on it or it takes corporeal form. A good leader who's got no way to hurt the enemy or anything that her followers' attention can be fixed on besides simple survival just simply cannot do well. To make the two situations parralell, Angelus would need to be discorpreal, and Faith would need to keep the AI team up and fighting for weeks or even months.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I forgot to mention. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:05:20 03/05/03 Wed

That AI is a bunch of experienced demon fighters. Most of those Buffy is working with have never even seen a vampire face to face before.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Those are fair arguments -- Doug, 05:30:05 03/06/03 Thu

In response I would say that there are still valid strategies that help with the goal of survival. Increased protections on the house, either mystical or physical, would be a good place to start. Since the first evil can't do anything without it's minions an attempt to limit it's minion supply might not be a bad idea; either by tracking down and plugging up sources (like the seal) or by just declaring a general Bringer hunt: Individual who collects the most bringer scalps gets extra bathroom time.

Even attempts to improve their resource situation would not be bad as an overall strategy (and might explain how they are feeding everybody). Have they tried to access the Council's old accounts? I don't know, they haven't mentioned it in favour of Buffy's speeches. Or have Anya ad Spike go on a crime spree if they're really strapped for cash.

I'm not actually suggesting any of these specifically, but it would be ice to see Buffy doing *something* to guide the group and assign tactical goals that would be constructive in achieving the groups strategic goal: Stay alive.

On that last point; while the Potentials have little or no combat experience, Buffy does have a core of individuals who have all fought at least one, usually more, apocalypsi. And for that matter her forces far outnumber AI's.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not really anything I want to see screen time devoted to -- lunasea, 08:29:37 03/06/03 Thu

this is BtVS. I don't want time taken away from anything to actually be strategic. It is fun to speculate what they *could* do, but that is about it. Leave the show for what really matters. I was impressed that they mentioned repairing the house. Who else thought after CwDP the house would be miraculously fine? That was enough reality. Get back to the interaction amoung the characters.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Isn't that the responsibility of a leader? -- lunasea, 08:21:57 03/06/03 Thu

Faith has ONE goal, to save Angel. She isn't being manipulated into anything. She has something corporal to pound. She is fighting a one-front war.

Buffy is completely surrounded on all sides. She has to deal with her own shit, Spike's shit, Willow's shit, the Potentials, Dawn, The First, her wacked dreams (what did I leave out). Buffy doesn't have anything to do. Things get tossed at her who knows when. As she said in regards to Angelus, "how can I prepare when I don't know what I am preparing for."

Being a leader isn't about planning. It is about motivating. Lietenants can come up with the plan. It isn't about directing assets. Underlings can handle that, too. Leaders appear to do these things, because that tends to motivate people.

Leadership is rhetoric. Buffy is doing the best she can. She is trying to motivate the troops. She just forgot the best way to lead is through example. It isn't Buffy's ego that is the problem. It is her lack of hope. How can a leader give hope to others when she lacks it herself.

Faith isn't in that position.

[> [> Connor and Magic (spoilers Salvage and somewhat known casting spoiler - not FtVS) -- Tyreseus, 00:14:42 03/06/03 Thu

In addition, Connor has picked up a disdain for magic equivalet to that of the warriors in a lot of Fatasy novels.

Connor's attitude towards magic reminds me of his earlier attitude about demons... bad, kill them!

Inch by inch, Connor is beginning to see the world in gray, where demons like Lorne can be serving the greater good. But it's nice to know that there's still a great deal of tension between him and Lorne.

Did Lorne expect the sanctuary spell to work when he tried to play Professor Plum with the Candlestick in the Lobby? Why didn't Gunn or Fred try to stop Lorne from introducing Connor's head to the blunt weapon? It's clear that Lorne hasn't much liked Connor since, well, since the toddler was in diapers, but physical attack hasn't been a part of their interaction lately.

But what Connor's attitude towards magic puts me in mind of... my *accidental* exposure to the spoiler that Willow comes to LA to resoul Angel. How's Connor going to react to "the most powerful Wicca," who has known magic addiction?

Loved Wesley's response to Connor, though, "we use the tools we have."

But, knowing what we do about magic use in the Whedonverse, are the AI team relying too much on magic? They've been pretty heavy handed with it this season... the memory spell, the spell to take Angel's soul, the spell to resoul Angel (that didn't work), and most of their efforts to snare the beast have involved trying to find a spell.

And the burning questions, what do you get when you mix the genetics of a "superbeing" child of two vampires with a half-demon, former "divine being"?

Angel's heart has been beating all season (since Ground State) and how is that going to come into play?

And was Faith beaten so badly because she's crippled by her own guilt? (Need more psychology from Faith, has she forgiven herself? Why was she remaining in prison despite armageddon? How may biker chicks did she ride in prison?)

[> [> [> Fun with genetics, Buffyverse style! -- Valheru, 01:20:22 03/06/03 Thu

And the burning questions, what do you get when you mix the genetics of a "superbeing" child of two vampires with a half-demon, former "divine being"?

In normal genetics, the dominant genes rule, and in this case that would probably be the mostly-divine-for-a-summer mother. But hey, in the Buffyverse, the divine part maybe cancels out the demonic and vampiric parts, leaving them with a normal human baby (sort of like the Marvel Comics mutant Quicksilver's and Inhuman Crystal's baby, Luna, who is also human).

But what if Dawn and Connor got together? One shouldn't be human. The other one shouldn't even exist. What would that give them? One non-existant baby ball of energy?

Or what about Veruca and Clem? One is all hair. The other is all skin. The baby would look like a bulldog with a wig on.

And then there's everyone's favorite couple, Balthazar and Marcie Ross. Ever have that dream where you're running but you just aren't getting anywhere? It's because you've just run into the world's largest invisible demon.

[> [> [> [> Dawn is human (spoiler Salvage) -- lunasea, 08:42:59 03/06/03 Thu

But what if Dawn and Connor got together? One shouldn't be human. The other one shouldn't even exist. What would that give them? One non-existant baby ball of energy?

Dawn is human. She is an innocent. A ball of energy isn't an innocent. If a Slayer's kid is normal, who is human with a demon essense, why wouldn't Dawn's kid be normal?

Connor should be sterile. He really only has one parent, Angel. Darla was just the vessel for this. Maybe he is and the baby isn't his. Maybe, hopefully.

[> [> [> [> [> What the heck are you talking about? -- Scroll, 10:41:48 03/06/03 Thu

Connor has two biological parents. Count 'em. One: Angel. Two: Darla. Sorry, lunasea, but Darla was not just a vessel. I mean, look at the kid's hair! That is not Angel hair. And Connor happens to have blue eyes. Which I'm going to assume he got from his blue-eyed mother and not his brown-eyed dad.

(When teenaged Connor first arrived on the scene, I know many of us posters kept saying ME had done a wonderful casting job because VK looked so much like Julie Benz. Take that for what it's worth.)

As for whether Connor is sterile, we don't know at this point and we probably won't find out unless the writers take him to the doctor's for a full body work-up. But Connor isn't like a mule, y'know. He's not a mix of two different species and therefore can't reproduce. Angel and Darla were both vampires, and Connor is (mostly) human. He has powers similar to a vampire, but he is considered human. Not a mule.

But I do agree that Dawn's kid would most likely be normal. We don't really know for sure, of course, but it would seem that (as of "Potential") her Key-ness is being ignored and we're to see her as simply a human teenager.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ack! He's the spitting image of his Mom! -- Masq, 13:52:41 03/06/03 Thu

Now the temperment, I'd say he got that from his Dad. And the personality in general, from both dads.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think Holtz still plays a huge role -- Scroll, 19:32:47 03/06/03 Thu

Holtz is still incredibly influential on Connor's life, in the way he thinks and responds to situations. I think lunasea postulated somewhere above that when Connor said to Angelus, "My father was a good man," he actually meant Angel. I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think he really did mean Holtz. To Connor, Holtz always will be a good man despite framing Angel for his suicide and leading Connor to commit pseudo-patricide.

Yes, Connor does love Angel (though he'd never admit it under torture) but he still loves Holtz too. He holds Holtz as above suspicion; even Holtz's evil acts can be rationalised and justified. He adores Holtz in a way he can't/won't adore Angel.

What I really want to see is more about how Connor feels about Darla. While we know Holtz basically told Connor that Angelus was evil, evil, evil, we have no idea what kind of stories he told about Darla. Did Holtz tell Connor that Darla had died with honour, sacrificing her life for him out of love? Or did he only tell about the slaughter and mayhem?

I'm crossing my fingers that Angel will see another season, and we'll see Connor come to grips with his two mothers.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Connor and Darla -- Masq, 19:57:29 03/06/03 Thu

Holtz knew Darla sacrificed herself to save her baby before he went to Quortoth. So he had this knowledge when he raised Connor. Holtz also knew Darla for a dozen years as an evil demon-bitch as responsible for his family's death as Angelus was. It's hard to know what he would tell Connor. After all, I imagine Holtz did not know Darla was possessed by Connor's soul at the time she saved Connor's life at the expense of her own.

What interested me was how Connor reacted both times Darla's name was mentioned. The first time was in Apocalype Nowish when Connor and Cordelia come upon the alley behind Caritas. Cordelia says, "Darla!" And Connor perks up and says, "My mother!"

The second instance is when Connor is down in the basement with Angelus. Angelus is going on about how he'll have to stake himself to get away from Connor, and then he says, "Darla felt the same way." You can see Connor turn slightly at the sound of that name. Like he is hungry to hear about his mother, but afraid of what Angelus will say about her. It's almost as if he knows she sacrificed herself for him and he is afraid of hearing otherwise from Angelus.

Almost as if he needs to believe that Darla had some good in her, because (1) we all want our parents to have some good in them, just as people and (2) what Darla and Angel(us) are, Connor judges himself as. He longs to know both his parents had good in them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Excellent thoughts, Masq. And what is Connor's darkest fear? -- Ixchel, 23:09:05 03/06/03 Thu

IMHO, it's that Angel and Darla are the evil things Holtz surely described (a very refined form of psychological torture - _you_ aren't bad, but the things that you're made of are) and nothing more. That Angel, the good father, is an illusion and Darla killed herself because of loathing not love. And so Connor has no choice and no chance of being anything but evil.

Dawn had similar feelings, a belief that she may be inherently evil. And she must still struggle with the idea that she's not "real", but just an amalgamation of false memories. That if her creation spell was undone and the memories removed, it would be as if she never existed.

It's interesting how the two are paralleled.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agee Ixchel -- aliera, 05:20:37 03/07/03 Fri

The soul cannot exist without its other side which is always found in a "you."1 Jung

You are not the source of me. Buffy

I come back to fear of self and seeking for self as the continuing main arc for the shows and for this year. Connor's fear is why he was still so quick to identify Holtz as his true father? And why eCordy's really attracted to Connor? (Poor Connor...he needs to be set down amoungst the Potentials I think.) The question Rufus asked yesterday is relevant, "Who are you?" Connor is more than his birth.

In 1956, Carl Jung wrote: "We are living in what the Greeks called the keiros--the right moment--for a `metamorphosis of the gods,' of the fundamental principles and symbols. This peculiarity of our time, which is certainly not of our conscious choosing, is the expression of the unconscious man within us who is changing.

Who is Connor? Who is Dawn? Who is Gwen? Who is Cordy? Who is Faith? Cunn? Fred? Xander? Anya? Willow? Angel? Buffy?

Then who is this other to whom I am more attached than to myself, since, at the heart of my assent to my own identity it is still he who wags me?2 Lacan

A demon? A slayer? A superhuman? It seems as more than a few posters have noted that it is the humanity that is highlighted and not just in Dawn.

It's interesting how the two are paralleled (and also how they are juxtaposed? Two young people with super powers; but lately they seem to be highlighting Dawn's humanity Both Dawn and Connor qualify as potentials for the traditional hero's journey on the basis of inhuman birth.

Jove in the clouds had his inhuman birth.
No mother suckled him, no sweet land gave
Large-mannered motions to his mythy mind.
He moved among us, as a muttering king,
Magnificent, would move among his hinds,
Until our blood, commingling, virginal,
With heaven, brought such requital to desire
The very hinds discerned it, in a star.
Shall our blood fail? Or shall it come to be
The blood of paradise? And shall the earth
Seem all of paradise that we shall know?
The sky will be much friendlier then than now,
A part of labor and a part of pain,
And next in glory to enduring love,
Not this dividing and indifferent blue.(3)
--"Sunday Morning"

From Hermes of Headline muse again:

Two years ago my introductory article for the New Year was titled "On Being Human: Life and Significance in this New Millennium" ( January 2001). In it, I argue that the significance of life in this millennium turns on the question of what it means to "be human." I further argue that while great attention has been focused on advances in science and technology, the culture is in danger of neglecting this more fundamental question. Mythic consciousness is foundational to the question of what it means to "be human."

I don't think we're in danger of it in these shows. But what Joss seems to say is that it is the human in the myth that impels the major conflict and yet the human in the superhuman that also impels the victory. Xander appealing to the human in Willow. Spike's seeking for the human in himself. Buffy's human need to show dawn the world to allow dawn to come into herself. It is the humaness in the characters that allows us to connect. It is the human feeling in Connor that set up both his tragedy and may lead him to his actualization. I suspect with Dawn that the emphasis on her lack of powers is the mislead. That she is still the key and may very well turn out to be a key to the answer. But if so, I also suspect that it is her humanity that will impel the answer.

I. C. G. Jung, The Practice of Psychotherapy , tr. R. F. C. Hull, Vol. XVI of The Collected Works of C. J. Jung (Princeton, NJ., 1966), par. 545.
2. Jacques Lacan, "The Insistence of the Letter in the Unconscious," in Structuralism , ed. Jacques Ehrmann (New York, 1970), p. 133.
3.Stevens, Wallace. Sunday Morning.

[> [> [> Have to disagree Tyreseus.*L -- Briar Rose, 02:18:59 03/06/03 Thu

<the spell to resoul Angel (that didn't work)....

It's interesting that you say that because I suspected that something was wrong with the stated intent versus the actual intent of that spell to return Angel's soul by Cordy's choice ingrediant of a "soul eater" to complete the spell.*L

Oh - the spell worked exactly as common sense said it would. In fact it worked so well that it sucked Angel's soul right out of the safe! It was not that the spell "didn't work" - it was that the rst of AI didn't knwo the true outcome it was supposed to have.

That was confirmed when Evil/Cordy took out Lilah and stated her purpose in letting Angelus out.

[> [> [> [> Re: Have to disagree Tyreseus.*L -- Tyreseus, 02:37:15 03/06/03 Thu

Okay, you got me. Obviously, the spell worked exactly as Evil!Cordy wanted it to, but from the AI team perspective, it failed.

Hey, am I the only one who thinks Cordelia turned evil because she once dated Xander Harris and he's got some mystical hex/curse that turns all his girlfriends (who aren't already demons) evil?

Cordelia... Anya... Willow (technically not a girlfriend, but they did do a lot of smooching)... yup, he's got the track record to fear.

[> [> [> [> [> Xander's women -- Tess, 09:14:31 03/06/03 Thu

Don't forget Faith. Xander and Faith made with the moves and the next thing you know she's being the mayor's right hand slayer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Xander Harris: Poster Boy for the 'Just say no to sex' campaign.*L -- Briar Rose, 00:20:45 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> Is Angel's heart really beating? -- Helen, 02:50:01 03/06/03 Thu

Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I thought Gwen's little power surge just gave it a jolt and then it stopped. Cos a vampire with a heart that beats... hmm.

[> [> [> [> I don't think so -- Gyrus, 09:07:37 03/06/03 Thu

Yes, I think Angel's heart only beat for a few seconds before it stopped again.

A lot of people thought that Angel's sudden make-out session with Gwen when his heart started up was hokey, but from a psychophysiological point of view, it makes a lot of sense. Part of the experience of emotion is physiological feedback; if you suddenly feel the same physiological sensations you associate with passion, you might just act accordingly.

[> [> [> That's an assumption (spoiler Slavage) -- lunasea, 08:34:58 03/06/03 Thu

And the burning questions, what do you get when you mix the genetics of a "superbeing" child of two vampires with a half-demon, former "divine being"?

How do we know that the baby is Connor's? We saw Cordelius kiss The Beast. What if the baby is actually The Beast's? Then it comes out demon like and how would Connor react?

[> [> [> ok, that's it--i'm not reading *any* post that says 'spoiler'... -- anom, 17:56:25 03/06/03 Thu

...unless it specifically says it's for an ep I've already seen! If it's cryptic, I'm gonna come down on the side of "don't read it"!

And some of you others, keep the actual spoilers out of subject lines, even for eps that have aired! No, it hasn't happened in this thread (so far), but scroll up & you'll see what I mean. Or don't, if you don't want to know about it.

[> [> [> [> Big Apologies -- Tyreseus, 18:45:46 03/06/03 Thu

Sorry, tried to be as clear as possible without actually mentioning which spoiler I meant in the subject line.

I've tried so hard to be spoiler-free as well and still got caught with this one.

Sorry, I know it sucks to be spoiled.


[> [> that's a sweeping generalization -- lunasea, 07:50:33 03/06/03 Thu

That weakness for Slayers doesn't just affect both Angel and Spike, but Connor as well.

Angel has a weakness for BUFFY. She just happens to be a Slayer. Angel fell in love with her before she was even Called. Actually, Angel's weakness is for blonds.

Connor likes Faith. He has never met Buffy, so how can you say that he has a weakness for slayers?

Spike has never met Faith, so we don't know if it is Slayers in general or just Buffy. He likes a challenge and to a vamp Slayers are the ultimate challenge.

If we are going to say that Angel and Spike have a weakness for Slayers because they like Buffy, then Riley does too so does and Xander. Xander actually did like both Faith and Buffy. Then again, Xander also liked Cordy and Anya.

Such statements are like when Spike said that Buffy had a thing for vampires. She liked ONE, but she liked him when he was human, too. Evil doesn't always understand things.

[> [> [> Re: that's a sweeping generalization -- maddog, 11:49:24 03/06/03 Thu

That's not entirely true. He did meet Buffy's body...but they were Faith's words...her sentiments(and they were rather hot if I remember correctly). I'll bet the old Spike would go for Faith.

[> [> that's a sweeping generalization -- lunasea, 07:52:08 03/06/03 Thu

That weakness for Slayers doesn't just affect both Angel and Spike, but Connor as well.

Angel has a weakness for BUFFY. She just happens to be a Slayer. Angel fell in love with her before she was even Called. Actually, Angel's weakness is for blonds.

Connor likes Faith. He has never met Buffy, so how can you say that he has a weakness for slayers?

Spike has never met Faith, so we don't know if it is Slayers in general or just Buffy. He likes a challenge and to a vamp Slayers are the ultimate challenge.

If we are going to say that Angel and Spike have a weakness for Slayers because they like Buffy, then Riley does too so does and Xander. Xander actually did like both Faith and Buffy. Then again, Xander also liked Cordy and Anya.

Such statements are like when Spike said that Buffy had a thing for vampires. She liked ONE, but she liked him when he was human, too. Evil doesn't always understand things.

[> [> Maybe it's not Darla, maybe its the link to the Master -- Helen, 08:59:49 03/06/03 Thu

He was aware of the prophecies regarding his link to the fate of the Slayer, so maybe that's where the obsession originates (I am right in thinkning the Master sired Darla aren't I?).

[> [> [> Vampire Family Tree! -- Scroll, 11:02:04 03/06/03 Thu

You're right, the Master sired Darla. Here's how the whole family tree goes.

Master ==> Darla, the Anointed One (Collin from BtVS S1)
Darla ==> Angelus
Angelus ==> Drusilla
Drusilla ==> Spike, Darla (the second time)

Darla + Angel = Connor

Therefore Connor and Drusilla are siblings, but Connor is also Drusilla's uncle. But because Drusilla re-sired Darla, Connor is also Drusilla's grandson.

Connor is Spike's uncle, brother, and great-uncle.

Connor is actually Angel's (half?) brother since Darla sired Angelus and gave birth to Connor.

Yep, this is one messed-up vamp clan. Poor Connor, he was better off with Holtz!

[> [> Re: What is it with this bloodline and Slayers? [Faith vs Buffy][spoiler spec] -- Walking Turtle, 09:47:44 03/06/03 Thu

'in the space of one episode Faith showed more leadership ability than a certain other slayer showed in all of season 7 to date'

How would the actions of Faith displayed in 4.13 have work against First Evil? In a post below someone compared her actions to Buffy's 1st fight with the Ubervamp. Including the spit of blood.

To me the fun will be seeing how Faith's experiences in LA affect her actions in Sunnydale [not a spoiler] - she has to go to Sunnydale -- if she dies one of the Potentials is 'Chosen'

[> Re: A Question of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- Thran, 19:56:59 03/05/03 Wed

Unfortunately for Cordy, Wes and Faith (with some unexpected help from Angelus) end up ruining her carefully laid-out plans. The Beast has been destroyed. The sun is shining once again. Angelus can't be controlled; he's not playing by Cordy's rules.

I wonder . . . it it a totally loony theory to think that Angelus' killing The Beast was all part of Evil Cordy's plans? Just something to throw out there. I too am very excited to see MY favorite slayer back in the mix. I cheered Continuity With BtVS twice -- the Bringer's knife and the phone call to Dawn. However, I did have to think, just how dumb are the Bringers to think an ordinary woman can take out a frickin' Slayer? They couldn't really expect it to work, could they? They sent at least two or three Bringers after each of the Potentials that we've seen, for goodness' sake! Anway.

::Cheers Faith and Wes:: They have such great chemistry with each other now. Faith seems to like the new Wes ("You're lookin' . . . good") and in fact may be just what she needs right now. And vice versa. I can't wait to see where this season goes.

[> [> Not totally looney (spoilers) -- Scroll, 20:23:16 03/05/03 Wed

I wonder . . . it it a totally loony theory to think that Angelus' killing The Beast was all part of Evil Cordy's plans?

It might be part of Cordy's plan, or Angelus killing the Beast might be in somebody's plan if not Cordy's. I think from the look on her face in that last scene, Cordy was not a happy camper about the sun being back.

She seemed to need both the Beast and Angelus working for her, and possibly working together to achieve her plans... whatever her plans might be.

I love the Faith/Wes chemistry. They're so suited for each other, as partners and as (possibly?) friends. I want to see them actually talk, about the past and about Slayer business. More Faith/Wes!

[> [> Re: A Question of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- Slainey, 20:56:56 03/05/03 Wed

I'm glad Faith could just look at Wes and know he had changed. They didn't have to have a pissing contest. He even seemed to smile when she jumped them out that window.

[> [> [> 'Five by Five' -- maddog, 22:27:14 03/05/03 Wed

I thought she was nuts to do that with Wes in her arms but hey, he made it...and his "Five by Five" response was classic.

[> [> [> [> Re: Continuing the parallels -- Brian, 09:42:17 03/06/03 Thu

Faith's jump with Wesley continues the parallel structure of Faith and Buffy as it recalled the jump from the warehouse that Buffy made with the Monk when she first escapes from Glory.

[> [> [> [> [> different parallel -- anom, 21:40:29 03/06/03 Thu

It also brought to mind (mine, anyway) Angel's leap w/Cordelia from the upper floor of Russell Winters' mansion.

[> Re: A Question of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- maddog, 21:42:35 03/05/03 Wed

First off I loved the conversation Wes was having with Lilah. It showed true emotion. You could see they really had a connection whether Wes wanted to believe it or not. And the segue about who is and isn't redeemable was a perfect lead in to Faith.

As for people playing their cards, I think Evil Cordy's getting desperate...she's been using them all like puppets for so long that she's forgotten what it's like to be behind the 8 ball. Now she's got to pull out all the stops. Desperate people do amazing things...I can't wait to see what she has up her sleeve next. And I love her reaction to having Fatih back. Feeling threatened anyone? :)

Faith's resolve never ceases to amaze me...cause she was beaten. She should have been passed out. And yet she had the strength to pull off that last stunt and keep Angel from doing any more damage.

I like your commentary on this being Faith/Wes part 2. It actually reminds me of the Buffy theme, back to the beginning. It feels like they're giving them another chance. A chance they didn't have to begin with because of one reason or another. And they've both grown into their positions too.

I wonder if we'll hear the other half of that conversation on Buffy at the end of the month. It would be nice for continuity's sake...I won't hold my breath. :) And lastly, with the sun back to normal you wonder what the crew will have to do if they can get Angel his soul back soon. They've still got 9 episodes left. And they don't even realy know of an apocolypse now that the Beast is gone. Should be interesting.

[> [> About the Beast- Salvage (spoilers) -- Dannyblue, 21:56:44 03/05/03 Wed

Well, they know the Beast was working for someone else. The Beast might have been the Big Bad's big gun but, since they already know the Big Bad is even more powerful than the Beast, they know they ain't out of the woods yet.

[> [> Re: A Question of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- Tyreseus, 00:29:57 03/06/03 Thu

I wonder if we'll hear the other half of that conversation on Buffy at the end of the month. It would be nice for continuity's sake...I won't hold my breath. :)

Dawn: Hello?
Dawn: Yeah. Angel?
Dawn: Oh, yeah, I think she's upstairs.
(phone clicks off, dialtone noise)
Dawn: Angel, are you there?
(Buffy and Spike enter)
Buffy: Was that Giles? On the phone?
Dawn: No, it was Angel. He asked about you, then just hung up.
Buffy: That's weird.
Dawn: Do you think something's up? I heard on the news that there's no sun in LA. Should I call him back?
(Buffy looks at Spike. Spike lights a cigarette.)
Buffy: Nah. No time. Go get the girls, I need to give another long speech on how we're not prepared for the first. I had another dream. This time Faith told me we were losers and unprepared.

[> [> [> Re: A Question of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- lunasea, 09:01:57 03/06/03 Thu

I think, for continuity, when they get the big call on BtVS about what is going on Dawn will say something like "Angel called a couple of weeks ago, but he hung up before I could get you. He sounded really weird."

We won't get the other half, since BtVS won't be new for a few episodes. It isn't going to be like "City of" and "The Freshman."

[> [> [> Funny! :> and frightenly possible -- WickedBuffy, 21:41:42 03/06/03 Thu

[> She had a good one with Gunn, too (quotes from Salvage) -- Masq, 23:12:07 03/05/03 Wed

"I hear you're a good fighter."
"I hold my own."
"That's a shame."

Took me a minute, but then I had to smile.

[> [> Yup, lots of quoting goodness (spoilers) -- Scroll, 23:39:07 03/05/03 Wed

I was in chat tonight and we kept going:

"need some release!"
"hold my own!"
"five by five!"
"Oh, crap!"
"flying sluk!"

Hee hee!

[> [> [> Flying sluk -- Masq, 06:16:14 03/06/03 Thu

OK, I was so tickled that Connor FINALLY made a reference to something from Quortoth that I didn't get the uh, rhyming reference in that.


Well, kudos for Fury. I might forgive him for mangling Angelus.

[> [> [> Re: Yup, lots of quoting goodness (spoilers) -- maddog, 07:59:45 03/06/03 Thu

I have a there any guy on these shows that she hasn't had some sort of sexual tension with? I'm tempted to ask if there's anyone at all with some of her comments to Buffy in the past and Fred last night.

[> Part of Connor's Crush -- lunasea, 07:35:59 03/06/03 Thu

Connor's crush comes from several things. Faith is hot. Faith is commanding. Faith can kick his ass. Faith cares about his dad. I think he actually likes that. He wants to care, but won't let himself. Faith makes no apologies about how she feels about Angel. By putting Angel over Connor, she gains his respect and he is going to listen to her. It isn't so much that she *can* kick his ass, but why. Faith is what Connor wants to be.

You left off one of the best lines, But are you a murderer. I am.

[> [> Also, if a super-natural human like Faith can be a hero. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:43:19 03/06/03 Thu

Connor may see some hope for himself to be something other than the cursed spawn of vampires.

[> Re: A Question of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- RichardX1, 13:30:06 03/06/03 Thu

>>What is a Slayer? Why are they always girls? What is a Watcher, and what is his relationship with the Slayer? Why are the Bringers contracting out to prison inmates to do their dirty work?<<

((kicking myself for not recognizing the Bringers' knife))

But wouldn't you think the Bringers would want Faith alive and confined, as she was? If they off her, one of the Not-ready-for-prime-time-Slayers gets awakened, and now the First has two Slayers in town to deal with.

[> [> Yeah, someone does't plan too well -- Doug, 13:41:05 03/06/03 Thu

Right now Faith is confined, the FE should be going after the Potentials, kill them and then go after Faith. That's how this particular plan was attempted in the book "Pretty Maids all in a Row", which incidentally is an excellent (if non-canonical) book set in the Buffyverse during the Second World War, and dealing with Spike and Dru.

But yeah, you'd think the First Evil would be a little smarter.

[> [> [> Re: Yeah, someone does't plan too well -- Tess, 22:43:25 03/06/03 Thu

If the slayer line doesn't run through Buffy anymore than it would seem to make more sense in killing Buffy and letting Faith stew in jail until the FE is finished with all the potentials. And if it does still run through Buffy than shouldn't there be three active slayers? Unless of course the FE is doing an Adam and wanting Buffy alive at the end to guarantee an outcome. And its sad cause I can't wait to see what happens but I'm dreading it because once I know it'll be no more Buffy.

[> [> hmm, who to kill first... -- WickedBuffy, 21:50:32 03/06/03 Thu

Would The FE rather fight Faith or Amanda?
Knocking off Faith makes perfect sense to me! The SITs don't really seem very threatening yet.

Imagination or Manifestation? [Mild Spoilers] -- AgnosticSorcerer, 19:03:07 03/05/03 Wed

Was the Lilah-form Wesley was talking to in the basement really a figment of his imagination or a manifestation of the First?

Perhaps Angelus' phonecall to Sunnydale supports the latter possibility?

[> Re: Imagination or Manifestation? [Mild Spoilers] -- LadyStarlight, 19:56:00 03/05/03 Wed

I figured it was a toss-up between Wes' guilt talking or Lilah's ghost somehow tied to her body, until Wes severed (literally!) the tie.

Pseudo!Lilah sounded too gentle to be the First, imo.

[> No, I don't think so (Salvage spoilers) -- Scroll, 20:04:42 03/05/03 Wed

The Lilah-manifestation touched Wes several times. Also if it had been the FE, we should've seen it trying to manipulate Wes, but instead all we got was Wes trying to come to terms with how he couldn't save Lilah.

Eeewwwww... (small spoiler for tonight's Angel) -- Revel, 19:07:54 03/05/03 Wed


"Give mama some sugar" *Smooch*

Ewww. Double-yuck and blind me now (figuratively speaking).

But nice plot twist.

-Revel (occasional poster)

[> Re: Eeewwwww... (more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- CW, 20:35:48 03/05/03 Wed

Her smooching with Connor later was almost as yuck worthy, IMO.

Gad Zooks, Cordy is pregnant. Who'd a thunk it? And all this time we thought it was all those doughnuts she's been packing away in the office over the years, or maybe that she was stealing bowling balls from the lanes next to the hotel. ME sure put one over on us this time???

[> [> Re: Eeewwwww... (more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- Dannyblue, 23:36:29 03/05/03 Wed

I felt the "Ewwwwww." But I was supposed to, so it was good "Ewwwww." I mean, I don't think ME wants us to look at Cordy's interractions with Connor or the Beast and think, "Aw, isn't that sweet." They want our flesh to crawl. They want us to crinkle our noses in disgust and squirm in our seats.

I think the point of E!C's interractions with the Beast was to show that she had complete control over this creature all of AI had been unable to defeat. In a way, she was very patronizing towards this indestructable demon, treating it much the way we now see she's treating Connor. The fact that the Beast let her treat it that way, that it seemed almost honored by her attention, is a testimant to her power and control.

Oh, and I do think it was a bad line. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was bad on purpose.

[> [> Re: Eeewwwww... (more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- Tess, 00:02:04 03/06/03 Thu

Not almost as yuck...more yuck.

[> [> Re: Eeewwwww... (more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- Revel, 05:19:14 03/06/03 Thu

Like that music? Seemed quite like Hitchcock (or at least director imitating Hitchcock) style music.

Now whose baby is it? Seems a bit quick for a "normal" baby - how long ago *did* Connor and Cordy have sex?


[> [> [> Re: The timing is off (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- Dannyblue, 05:42:20 03/06/03 Thu

In the continuity of the show, it can't have been more than a few weeks, if even that, since Cordy and Connor had sex in "Rain of Fire." There's no way she can be showing that much unless the baby is (well, obviously) not normal. But I mean really, really not normal. There are some possibilities.

1. The baby, being part human and part vampire, is just growing super fast. But I can't see why it would, since Darla was pregnant for 9 months. And, according to what we've seen, Connor is fully human, just with vampy traits.

2. It's not Connor's child. It's the spawn of some evil creature that has a super fast gestation time. That, or Cordy was impregnated months ago.

3. Evil!Cordy is powerful enough to make herself show more, perhaps to give her revelation to Connor more impact. She saw she was loosing control of him, and had to reassert control as quickly as possible.

Anyway, her "Give momma some sugar," makes sense if she was referring to her pregnancy.

[> [> [> [> Re: The timing is off (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- Peggin, 07:54:39 03/06/03 Thu

2. It's not Connor's child. It's the spawn of some evil creature that has a super fast gestation time. That, or Cordy was impregnated months ago.

I'm leaning to thinking it is the Beast's child, but the fact is that, whether it is Connor's child or not, it is still "the spawn of some evil creature". Remember, Cordy has been a demon for over a year now. Maybe it is her own biology, and not that of whoever the father is, that has accelerated the gestational period.

[> [> [> Re: Eeewwwww... (more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- maddog, 08:34:04 03/06/03 Thu

Well, if it's a demon baby then I wouldn't think time would have meaning at all.

[> [> Re: Eeewwwww... (more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- maddog, 08:18:50 03/06/03 Thu

I thought she was creepier in that conversation with Connor than in any other part of the episode. Cause instead of being overjoyed she was a very calm, "we're pregnant".

[> Re: Eeewwwww... (small spoiler for tonight's Angel) -- maddog, 08:08:05 03/06/03 Thu

True, good plot twist, but couldn't they have insinuated the kiss...that was gross.

[> 'Give Mama some Chapstick' -- WickedConception, 08:21:09 03/06/03 Thu

"Give mama some sugar" could have meant The Beast was the dad (I doubt that, though) or that Cordy had spawned The Beast and it was her actual offspring.

Even though Connor is aging at the regular rate of the dimension he's in now, maybe his sperm ::koff:: is still growing at an incredibly fast rate like he did in the other dimension.

Cordy does seem to be good at demon pregnancies - I think Evil Cordy can do most anything with that body, including a fast pregnancy. Or even a FAKE one!

(I bet it really chaffed Cordys lips. How many takes for that scene, do you suppose?)

[> [> oops! Spoilers for last nights Angel in my above post! -- WickedBuffy (my bad), 08:23:45 03/06/03 Thu

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