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Big Sister's Clothes (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- cjl, 20:55:10 03/05/03 Wed

Well it's easier to say 'I Love You'
Than 'Yours, Sincerely' I suppose
All little sisters
Like to try on big sister's clothes

-- Elvis Costello, "Big Sister's Clothes"

Weird, WEIRD feeling watching tonight's episode. I felt like I was plopped in the middle of one of Andrew's old Marvel comic books--specifically, Super Villain Team-Up. In SVTU, Doctor Doom (the Fantastic Four's perennial nemesis) would join forces with another one of Marvel's premiere bad guys and all sorts of deviltry would ensue. Funny thing about the deviltry and mayhem, though: nothing bad would ever really happen. Either a passing superhero would foil the dastardly plot "just in time," or one of the bad guys would sabotage the other, leaving their plan in ruins. It's OK, folks, nobody got hurt!

But if nobody's going to get hurt, what's the point of the story? That villainy never prospers? Come on, I knew that was bull when I started collecting comics, and I was seven years old. And yet, here we are, thirty or so years later, and I'm reading another issue of SVTU: Angel and the Beast meet up. Angel and the Beast team up. Angel stabs the Beast in the back, foiling Evil!Cordy's dastardly plan to block out the sun, tossing a monkey wrench into her entire sinister agenda, and saving the superhero's pretty behind to boot. (Yes, Faith escaped Angelus--but hey, I could made that move with the chains. Not impressed.) Angelus as accidental hero, or conduit for the powers of good cheapens the drama, sucks the life out of the urgency of the situation. If nobody's going to get hurt, why should we care about what's happening on the screen?

The smell of musty comics wafted from the dialogue, too. I couldn't believe how clunky and stiff Evil!Cordy's lecture to the Beast sounded. Wes and Lilah's "dead bitch talkin'" scene moved like an Arctic ice floe in mid-January. I thought their conversation would have a lot more snarkiness and bitter recriminations; even if it WAS Wes just talking to himself, I thought the man had more than enough self-hatred so Lilah's half of the conversation would have some ACID. About a month ago, I said I would kill Fury if he blew this scene. OK, I'm not THAT angry, but let's just say I'm not leaping to his defense so quickly anymore....

(Was it just me? s'kat, I think I'm joining your "Minority report" Support Group.)

Now that I've unloaded, on to the good stuff: mainly, Faith, Faith, and--oh yes--Faith. Mmmm, Eliza's looking good people. Even three years in the slammer haven't taken the shine off that beautiful brunette mane or put an extra inch on that killer physique. (I know, drooling is ungentlemanly, but I'm sure most of you can understand.) And give Fury credit where credit is due, the action sequences were crackling--I've always wanted to see someone dive through the glass in those prison meeting rooms, and I loved the little training sequences with Faith an Wes at the traffic light.

Thematically, the common denominator was obvious: this episode was haunted by Buffy. Angelus calls Sunnydale, and little sister Dawn tells him Big Sis is just where he wants her. Faith is nearly stabbed by a Bringer's knife. The Slayer with the 100% anti-apocalyse track record isn't available, so Faith has to try on big sister's clothes. All the lessons Buffy taught Angel, about never giving up on those you care about, about believing in redemption--all the lessons he applied to Faith--are in play. And Evil!Cordy simply cannot get away from the ghost of "B": Daddy says Buffy's name in his moment of perfect happiness, and now Sonny Boy is worshipping at the altar of slayerdom. What's a manipulative she-demon to do?

Honorificus, that was a rhetorical question....

Quick notes:

-- Out of prison for ten minutes, and Wes and Faith are back in Watcher/Slayer mode. But Wes is a much different Slayer than he was back in Buffy S3. He was emotionally guarded, willing to push Faith's buttons and put her in a potentially hazardous situation if it would improve her fighting skills. Kind of reminded me of...um, Holtz. With Giles' brain on the fritz and now Wes gone dark, is Joss telling that Watcher/Slayer are unhealthy by their very nature? Retcon or changed perspective?

-- Excellent interactions between Faith and the Fang Gang: instant respect between Faith and Gunn; Fred, a little starstruck finally meeting a slayer; and Connor, totally crushing on Faith before our Jocasta in sensible shoes lowered the boom...

-- Some good dialogue amidst the comic book-ese: Wes taking Faith's "five by five" line. Gunn telling Faith he can handle himself, and Faith responding, "that's too bad." And you gotta love Angelus' "welcome back" billboard for his second favorite slayer. (Always a gentleman.)

-- Is Dawn going to tell Buffy that Angel called and hung up? Is anybody going to tell Buffy what the heck is going in L.A.?

-- Was Ghost!Lilah the FE? Possibly, but can't be sure. When Lilah rose from the slab in the first part of the conversation, I think that was Wes' imagination. But when she "appeared" wearing the jacket for the second part of the conversation, I think it was something "outside" of Wes. Still, if it was the FE trying to tempt Wes, it failed miserably.


Have to admit, I was slightly disappointed. Not a good sign if I'm more excited about what Faith's appearance might mean for BtVS than I am about what she's doing on Angel. Because if she exhibits a tenth of the leadership ability in Sunndyale that she showed off in L.A., Buffy might have a full-fledged Potential rebellion on her hands.
[> Respecting your right not to like (spoilers) -- Scroll, 21:37:54 03/05/03 Wed

One point I just had to address:

Wes and Faith are back in Watcher/Slayer mode. But Wes is a much different Slayer than he was back in Buffy S3. He was emotionally guarded, willing to push Faith's buttons and put her in a potentially hazardous situation if it would improve her fighting skills. Kind of reminded me of...um, Holtz.

Um, I am going to take the total opposite view here. I don't think Wes was emotionally guarded in the SUV scene. In fact, I would say Wesley was more emotionally aware, more open to Faith's feelings, more respectful of her opinions than he's been with anyone this season. He was upfront about the reason he came to her, not Buffy. Faith told him she wasn't going to kill Angelus, and more than just agreeing with her, I could see Wesley respecting her reasons.

I think this respect stems from what Lilah says to him in the basement: that Angel had taught him that everybody could be redeemed, no matter how far they had fallen. I see Wes as wanting to salvage Angel. And he saw for himself that Angel had salvaged Faith.

As for putting her in a potentially hazardous situation, I don't think he was trying to improve her fighting skills so much as test her skills. But he was upfront about that too. "Maybe you're rusty." "Maybe I am." "Maybe we should find out." "What did you have in mind?" Yes, she was taken off-guard. But that was hardly a dangerous situation. Two vamps? And Wesley was right there, tossing her the stake. So I can't agree with Wesley being like Holtz. Holtz was controlling, manipulative, and demeaning to Justine. Wesley empowers Faith. Throughout the ep, he's by her side, backing up her moves. She takes charge and he supports her.

With Giles' brain on the fritz and now Wes gone dark, is Joss telling that Watcher/Slayer are unhealthy by their very nature? Retcon or changed perspective?

Personally, I think the Slayer/Watcher team is essential and healthy if it's done correctly. Any partnership can become corrupt, if power is exploited by either party. But I don't see how Buffy, fighting to save the world every May, could have ever done it without her Watcher and Scoobies researching, putting in the hours, hitting demon bars and doing spells. No, the Watcher is still a necessary element --it's just what you mean by "Watcher" that needs to be redefined.

JMHO, of course : )
[> Re: Big Sister's Clothes (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- s'kat, 22:00:36 03/05/03 Wed

Have to admit, I was slightly disappointed. Not a good sign if I'm more excited about what Faith's appearance might mean for BtVS than I am about what she's doing on Angel. Because if she exhibits a tenth of the leadership ability in Sunndyale that she showed off in L.A., Buffy might have a full-fledged Potential rebellion on her hands.

Yep me too. It took me awhile to come up with anything to write...had to think on it. Because, well the episode while trippy in places, fell flat in others.

For the non-nit-picky/intense analytical review see my shadowkat nom de plume above. In that I've found a way to justify metaphorically the comic book villain team-up of the BEAST and ANGELUS. (Honestly, hasn't Cordy learned anything? Angelus is not into team work. Except of course when he's running the show and the team is his own kids: Spike and Dru. Otherwise...not into it.) Have to admit it was predictable - we know Angelus would find a way to get rid of the Beast. Clever of him to use Faith to do it, something Angel wouldn't have thought of. But seriously - I think the writer went for the metaphorical pay-off in this episode just as they did in Calvary. When I realized it - I figuratively wacked myself for being an idiot. Of course Cordy would kill Lilah and Angelus would kill the Beast.
Lilah from day one has represented Cordy's evil/shadow side. What Cordy would be if she hadn't gone the good path.
The Beast represents Angel's pure Bestial nature or the demon within. Once Cordelia becomes evil or the shadow, Lilah is redundant and is destroyed by Cordelia. (I would have preferred Lilah become good and Cordy disappear, but hey I'm not writing the show to the loud applause of Cordyshippers everywhere.) Same with Angel - once Angel becomes Angelus - the Beast is redundant and destroyed by Angel. The true villains are the characters themselves.
It's what Mesketat (the evil girl in the red dress said), "the answer lies among you".

Nice metaphor. If you can forget the comic book overtone.


-- Was Ghost!Lilah the FE? Possibly, but can't be sure. When Lilah rose from the slab in the first part of the conversation, I think that was Wes' imagination. But when she "appeared" wearing the jacket for the second part of the conversation, I think it was something "outside" of Wes. Still, if it was the FE trying to tempt Wes, it failed miserably.

Didn't catch that...very possible. Maybe the FE is the true BB in this series as well as Btvs? In a way Lilah helped Wes figure out what he needed to do, which was the opposite of vengeance. In fact the last Lilah image really did that - sent him after Faith.

(Was it just me? s'kat, I think I'm joining your "Minority report" Support Group.)

Uhm from what I can tell, you ain't in the minority. Go to www.slayage.com, read one of their reviews - they said pretty much the same things you did. I, on the other hand, am proud to report, that outside of the gals at TwoP, am the only one who despised Storyteller enough to actually post anything really negative on it. (And TwoP - Television Without Pity - does not count, since they, well, hate everything.) I actually sort of liked Salvage. Much better episode in my humble opinion than last week's Buffy. (Note said last week's Buffy. This week's was a re-run of one of the best episodes ME has ever put out...and since I was at The Quiet American instead, it's not too fresh in my mind...)


-- Out of prison for ten minutes, and Wes and Faith are back in Watcher/Slayer mode. But Wes is a much different Slayer than he was back in Buffy S3. He was emotionally guarded, willing to push Faith's buttons and put her in a potentially hazardous situation if it would improve her fighting skills. Kind of reminded me of...um, Holtz. With Giles' brain on the fritz and now Wes gone dark, is Joss telling that Watcher/Slayer are unhealthy by their very nature? Retcon or changed perspective?

No, not retcon, so much as changed perspective. We are looking at the relationship through adult eyes now, seeing it as it really is as opposed to the rose-colored glasses of the adolescent who yearns for a father. Note that Watcher's have not been portrayed kindly since Season 3 Btvs and never kindly on Ats. Wes actually came across better with Faith in this episode then he ever did before, including the time he turned her in way back in Btvs S3 Consequences.

I think the writers have cleverly lead us astray with the whole Watcher thing, but if you re-watch the episodes? The nasty watcher vibe is there throughout. Starting with Welcome to The Hellmouth and Giles' scene with Buffy on the balcony of the Bronze. And notably in Five by Five when Wes is contacted by the Watcher Council who is there to kill Faith.
[> [> Predictable? Hardly (4.13 spoilers) -- Masq, 22:14:20 03/05/03 Wed

I for one did not expect Angelus to actually kill the Beast. Avoid him, sure. Team up with him, certainly not. After Angel's fantasy of killing the Beast, I expected the Beast to be around until episode 22.

Won't miss him, especially.

Back to re-watching the episode.
[> [> [> I agree. That came completely out of left-field for me. (4.13 spoilers) -- Rob, 22:25:59 03/05/03 Wed

Especially after the quick killing of the Beast in Awakening, I was sure that the real Beast slayage would be a long, hard, arduous process. But no, it took even quicker to kill in real life than it did in Angel's "retarded" fantasy! I thought that was a brilliant mis-direct. Never in a million years would I have expected the Beast to be killed so swiftly in the first Faith episode. I figured it would be part of the big epic finale to the trilogy. I loved it, also, because it made sense that a piece of the Beast would be able to kill it, since no other material could pierce its flesh.

I also don't think people left that episode unscathed, particularly Faith. She looked pretty hurt to me, both psychologically and physically. Personally, I loved the ep, particularly the Faith scenes. It wasn't the best written episode ever, something about the plotting here and there felt a little bit off to me, but on the whole, the good so outweighed the bad. And as before, all the Faith scenes were so dead-on perfect that I'm not gonna let my David Fury prejudices keep me from loving this one.

And, btw, I am so ready to find out the truth about Cordy already, I could scream. That is after I finish ewwwwww!ing over the double dose of grossness with not only Connor, but the Beast.

"Give me some sugar."

And give me some Pepto Bismol. Please.

Rob
[> [> [> [> Left-field for me too (spoilers) -- Scroll, 22:39:48 03/05/03 Wed

I also don't think people left that episode unscathed, particularly Faith. She looked pretty hurt to me, both psychologically and physically.

Totally agree, Rob. I don't think Faith is going to be forgetting the Beast's words any time soon.

The Beast: "This is all you are. I had heard a Slayer possessed great strength... There is no real power here. You are weak. You're nothing."

She couldn't defeat the Beast, and on top of that, Angelus of all people brought back the sun. You know Faith has to be comparing herself to a certain blonde right now, and finding herself lacking.

But Connor, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne are all amazed by Faith. It's like Angelus and his fans at the bar. After so many defeats, the Fang Gang has started to lose hope of ever catching a break. Now a Slayer comes to their rescue and things are looking up. They're looking up and seeing a bright, shining sun, and they think Faith did it.

I wonder what will happen to Connor's crush when he finds out Faith wasn't the one who killed the Beast? Actually, I wonder if Faith will even tell them that it was Angelus? The Fang Gang seems to need somebody to put their hope in. Maybe letting them think she defeated the Beast is a kindness, a way to keep morale up. Though I'm hoping Wes figures it out.
[> [> [> [> Tastes even better on the second viewing! -- Masq, 22:59:53 03/05/03 Wed

Just got back from re-watching. The impact of the Faith scenes wasn't quite as powerful as the first time around, but you only have one first time.

I LOVE FAITH!!!!!!

And oh yeah, I seriously need answers about Cordelia, too. Has she really been evil 100% of the time, all the time, and just acting like Cordelia? Because if that's true, she's doing a bang-up job.

And ugh. I thought they'd hide Charisma's pregnancy for the rest of the season. I don't like that they integrated it into the plot. Partly because it's lame, partly because it involves more Connor kissing.

I think I figured out what it is about her kissing Connor, or anyone kissing Connor. He's very feminine, in some ways. Not that I'm against the hot-girl-on-girl action, but he's no girl.
[> [> [> [> [> Masq!!! I have a MAJOR QUESTION!! -- neaux, 05:00:21 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Masq!!! I have a MAJOR QUESTION!! -- neaux, 05:02:20 03/06/03 Thu

ok.. lemme try this again..

Was the blotting of the Sun disguising Cordy's Pregnancy?

Now that the sun has returned now everyone can see she is pregnant?? Is there a connection there? or is there a connection with the Beast's death and Cordy now being pregnant? hmmmm.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, I'm wondering if... -- Masq, 06:00:13 03/06/03 Thu

There was a connection between kissing the Beast and Cordy being pregnant.

Oops, no, wait, forget I said that. I was trying to *block* that whole thing out of my mind.


; )
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That makes sense.. but Ewwwww. -- neaux, 06:35:23 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> OK, you do know I was kidding, right? (4.13 spoilers and future total guesswork) -- Masq, 09:38:07 03/06/03 Thu

Actually, I think Evil!Cordelius is faking the pregnancy by some kind of magic to manipulate Connor. That way ME doesn't have to deal with the sticky issue of producing a child at the end of this story line, or getting rid of the pregnancy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: OK, you do know I was kidding, right? (4.13 spoilers and future total guesswork) -- maddog, 10:20:47 03/06/03 Thu

They could always have a miscarriage in the finale or something?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More ewwww. -- Arethusa, 08:36:45 03/06/03 Thu

Poor Cordelia. Impregnated with demon spawn for the third time! I wondered if the kid is the Beast's too, but I also wondered that if the kid is Connor's, will the Father have to kill the Son?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> misdirection? -- WickedBuffy, 09:37:07 03/06/03 Thu

If it's even really pregnant at all. (Cordy, not Charisma)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Tastes even better on the second viewing! -- Darby, 07:00:28 03/06/03 Thu

Masq, did you notice if the Beast referred to his "Master" as "him" as well? I can understand "master" maybe stretching to all genders, but if a masculine pronoun was used, that seems a huge clue to...something.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tastes even better on the second viewing! -- Dannyblue, 07:11:56 03/06/03 Thu

The Beast just said "My Master." Angelus was the one who kept calling it a "him".

I figure it's like Starfleet. In Starfleet, all commanding officers, male or female, are called "sir". In fact, I got so used to it, the fact that Janeway (on Voyager) preferred being called "ma'am" almost seemed strange.

Also, in the martial arts, female experts in the various disciplines are called masters. So are female "master" artisans.

Somehow, calling someone a mistress doesn't have the same impact. I think there are just too many other connotations.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> One of my teeny complaints... -- pr10n, 10:21:52 03/06/03 Thu

... about Salvage was this last-ditch effort to hide the Cordelius/Beast connection until the blow-off. The Anvil Chorus: He! (clang) He! (clang) He he! He he! Ok, so we should be looking for a previously unrevealed male character who is in charge of Rocky... Got it. Hey, wait a minute!

Other than that, I loved the ep. I especially like how giggly Angelus gets when a hunch pays off for him -- he did it to Gunn with the discussion of the Professor Portal Pusher, and he does it to Rocky here with the stabby boney knife. "I knew it! I knew it!"

This Angelus guy is not very sportsman-like, you know? He's a gambler, sure, but he showboats every little victory. Definately NOT a team player. Maybe he has unresolved father issues, or something.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> 'Maybe he has unresolved father issues, or something.'... Yah think? -- Masq ; ), 10:57:35 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> But... -- Masq, 10:21:47 03/06/03 Thu

Did he call his Master "him" or "he" in front of Angelus? That might have been strategy. If the Beast had called his Master "her", Angelus might have been more likely to get curious in a way the Beast's Master isn't ready for. Call it "him", Angelus goes about his business as he had already planned to. Call it "her" and he changes his strategy, becomes more insistent on finding this Master because now he's got a clue.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Tastes even better on the second viewing! -- maddog, 10:16:32 03/06/03 Thu

I have to rewatch tonight...there's just so many different good spots in this episode.

It would make sense that she's been playing them since she got back. Right from the memory loss to sleeping with Connor to freeing Angelus. The revelation that she'd been playing them the whole time would be brutal...but enjoyable just cause it's one master manipulation.

And yes, I think it's an agreement...we all love Faith. She brings a spark to the show (and soon, the shows) that hasn't been there for a while (can you imagine her hitting on Principal Wood?) :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Why I still doubt that... -- Masq, 12:02:14 03/06/03 Thu

she's been playing them the whole time.

I still think this is our real Cordelia who is possessed by some Evil thing that takes over her body from time to time. The reason I think this is because of the number of times we've been in Cordelia's pov, when she was alone, or whatever, and she's reacted to situations the way Cordelia would, not a big bad.

One that comes immediately to mind is her reaction to waking up next to Connor the morning after they slept together. She wakes up, sees him lying there next to her, rolls over and gets this "Oh.My.God. What did I do??" look on her face. An evil Cordelia would have patted herself on the back for a job well done, manipulating the vampire spawn/miricle child. A real Cordelia would have realized she did something incredibly stupid.

And the times she was alone before she got her memory back. She was clearly trying to be Cordelia, at least.

Or right after she got her memory back and she's stunned by an image of the Beast and runs away.

I've gone back and rewatched the episodes from "Slouching" onwards and there are other moments like this. So methinks there is more going on than just a Baddie parading around in a Cordelia suit.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree, this is still our Cordy (spoilers) -- Scroll, 12:08:07 03/06/03 Thu

I'm not sure if she's being possessed once in a while, or if her hellspawn is simply swaying her judgement at critical moments, or what. But yeah, I think this is our real Cordelia and not a pod!Cordy. Wouldn't have the same impact if she was a fake, anyway. More powerful if the Cordy that seduces Connor and frees Angelus is the same Cordy who found the photos of her, Angel, and baby Connor and immediately assumed she was a mother.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree, too - Cordy is still around (spoilers) -- WickedBuffy, 16:51:18 03/06/03 Thu

I think Cordy is being "possessed" by something, too. Still her body and probably her still in it also - her reactions and little Cordy nuances are the same as ever.

I was wondering when it could have happened, then. (I think it was as recent as the spell she tried to do on Angelus/Angel to get the soul back). But I think The Beasts Master has been around longer, of course. Then again - some people think it's been all season. Maybe it was planted in her during her Holy Days, and just waiting inside her for the perfect time to take over her body.
[> [> [> Re: Predictable? Hardly (4.13 spoilers) -- Peggin, 04:44:39 03/06/03 Thu

I for one did not expect Angelus to actually kill the Beast.

It didn't surprise me at all. Angel can't stand it when he's not the best Champion in the world, and Angelus can't stand it when he's not the "best" bad guy in the world. I highly doubt Angel would ever take out the competition, but it didn't surprise me in the least that Angelus would.
[> [> [> [> Re: Predictable? Hardly (4.13 spoilers) -- Masq, 06:12:15 03/06/03 Thu

I highly doubt Angel would ever take out the competition, but it didn't surprise me in the least that Angelus would.

Oh, I entirely agree. That move was very Angelus. That wasn't what I meant by surprise. I was surprised that it happened in this episode, episode 13. I would not have been surprised if Angelus tried to kill the Beast and failed because the writers needed the Beast around until the end of the Season.
[> [> [> [> [> Oh I agree (Spoilers Ats 4.13) -- s'kat, 08:12:25 03/06/03 Thu

I didn't see Angelus killing the Beast in this episode either, that surprised me. What I thought should have been predictable was he'd want to and was wacking myself for not seeing it. Personally I'd decided that the Beast wasn't killable...and it would take them until episode 22 to figure it out. Was pleasantly surprised to see they actually killed him sooner than that and didn't make the whole season about restoring the sun.

Not that I'm complaining...will NOT miss the Beast. Cordelia makes a more interesting villain.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Little Bad, Big Bad (*yawn*) (vague futury spoiler) -- Masq, 11:17:08 03/06/03 Thu

Is AtS going down the often-tread BtVS road? I kind of liked that it didn't. That W&H wasn't the Big Bad of season 1, defeated in episode 22. That when W&H was finally brought down, it wasn't by the title-character hero. It was by an enemy. And in Season 4.

Darla wasn't the Big Bad of Season 2. If there was a Big Bad, it was Angel's own inner metaphorical demons. He made some peace with them by episode 22, but he didn't defeat them. He still struggles with detachment from Angelus and with attitude about his destiny. And Darla herself disappeared in episode 16 of Season 2 only to re-emerge in Season 3 and not get defeated, but get something close to redeemed (I know you hate that word) in episode 9 of Season 3.

Holtz wasn't the Big Bad of season 3, he was too morally ambiguous. He was sympathetic. He went out in a final act of vengeance, but it was more tragedy than Evil. Tragedy for Holtz, tragedy for Connor, whom he loved. Sahjhan wasn't the Big Bad of Season 3. He was disappeared in episode 17, trapped in an urn by the of the pseudo-bad guys, the again somewhat sympathetic and tragic Justine.

So now we have season 4. Was the Beast the "Little Bad"? Is Cordelius the "Big Bad"? Well, there are casting spoilers that indicate that there might be an entirely different BB.

I read an article on www.slayage.com praising AtS for adopting the BtVS defeat-the-bad-guy seasonal arc.

But I'm still hoping it's not true. It's too formulaic. Not what the twisty-morally ambiguous AtS is about.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Would agree here -- s'kat, 14:15:58 03/06/03 Thu

So now we have season 4. Was the Beast the "Little Bad"? Is Cordelius the "Big Bad"? Well, there are casting spoilers that indicate that there might be an entirely different BB.

I read an article on www.slayage.com praising AtS for adopting the BtVS defeat-the-bad-guy seasonal arc.

But I'm still hoping it's not true. It's too formulaic. Not what the twisty-morally ambiguous AtS is about.

Agree. My main beef with this season is the obvious big bad motif which up to now, Angel The Series has avoided. I was never really that fond of the formula on Btvs and ignored it as much as possible - too comic-booky and I love comic books. I prefer the ambiguity, and in Ats what's always intriqued me is more often than not, Angel is his own worst enemy. It's the main characters who struggle with their own ambiguous nature on Angel as opposed to an external one.

Now the two series seem to have oddly flipped. Btvs' characters seem to be struggling with their inner monsters and ambiguous villains, while Ats' characters seem to be struggling with more external ones? Maybe it's just me.
Don't know. I mean you could argue that Cordelia is regular character struggling with an internal monster, possibly literally at the moment. And Angel/Angelus - also struggling with internal monster. Then of course there was the big mislead of dark Wes. But for some reason...it feels more formulaic this year than it did last year...which does make for tighter writing, but less interesting villains.

Hmmm...which leaves me with two questions, I guess: 1. What does this mean for the rest of the season and 2. How will it affect the narrative structure in future seasons assuming of course someone renews it?
[> [> [> Predictable? Kind of (4.13 spoilers) -- WickedBuffy, 09:06:09 03/06/03 Thu

I was just waiting for Angel to stab that critter with the bone knife the moment I saw him standing like that, with hands hidden. I knew the bone knife was it's weakness, but thought Cordy might do it just to continue her misdirection.

I sure didn't expect that pregnant twist at the end, though! If it really is.

Or Faith breaking out of prison like that. That was the one way out of left field for me. :>
[> [> Where it fell flat (4.13 spoilers) -- Masq, 22:19:35 03/05/03 Wed

Loved the Faith parts. Loved Wesley's talk with deadLilah.

Where it fell flat: Angelus. Fury can't write Angelus. Made him into a big goof-ball.

And I really, really hated that bar scene.

But in general, OK ep.
[> [> [> Re: Where it fell flat (4.13 spoilers) -- Rob, 22:29:18 03/05/03 Wed

I agree. Those are the plotting parts I didn't like. I hated the bar scene, and didn't think the scene where Angelus found out about the Slayer was that great either. The Angelus lines, on the whole, were not great. But I did like the "calling Dawn" scene. Not a perfect ep. But again, and I can't stress this enough, Eliza Dushku makes the entire hour worth watching. Not that I think it was a bad ep besides her, but her performance was fantastic.

Rob
[> [> [> Re: Where it fell flat (4.13 spoilers) -- Valheru, 23:13:49 03/05/03 Wed

Those were my two biggest gripes, as well. Who is Fury trying to write? He alternates between regular (but ruthless) Angel in the bar scene, then a Spike/Angelus mix for the rest of the episode. It's not like Angelus is a hard character to write in the first place. Also, DB is a little uneven with his performance here (though a lot of that can be attributed to Fury's all-over-the-place dialog)--he isn't playing Angelus with as much malevolent glee as he used to. The twinkle in his eye that made Angelus so distinctive fades in and out. He needs to grin more, dammit!

Gadzooks! That bar scene would have destroyed a lesser episode. Why is it that Fury always wants to screw with Angel's continuity? First, he gives us the wholly implausible "Angel and the Rat Pack" retcon in "THAW," and now he gives Angelus some airheaded old girlfriend that Harmony wouldn't even waste time with. And what's with the applause from the peanut gallery? Angelus is a Big Bad, not some long-lost friend of Joe Vampire. Those guys should have fled in terror when they found out he was back. Don't get me started on the rubber demon...

Fury's continuity-gaffability brings up something, though: if Faith knew about the Rain of Fire and SunBlock while in prison, it's going to be hard to explain why the Scoobies don't know about it. Especially considering that the Bringers have crossed over (or at least, their weapons) to AtS already, plus Angelus's Dawn conversation. It makes it look bad on Buffy that there isn't even a mention that she tried to contact her LA allies to offer/ask for support. And it also highlights the "Biggest Big Bad trying to kill the Slayer line, but forget about Faith for half the season" problem. Sure, it all works semi-plausibly on AtS, but the ramifications make BtVS look half-assed.
[> [> [> [> BtVS-AtS continuity -- Masq, 23:24:28 03/05/03 Wed

I heard that in the Shooting Script for "Bring On the Night", Buffy tells her mother in the dream, "The sun will still rise tomorrow. Except for in L.A., apparently". In the actual episode, they cut it to, "The sun will still rise tomorrow" because AtS was too far behind BtVS and the line would not have made any sense.

So I think the writers have had to deal with the fact that AtS has has a crazy schedule and left out continuity references.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: BtVS-AtS continuity -- Valheru, 00:44:46 03/06/03 Thu

Which begs a related question, what's the internal timeline for each show? AtS has been pretty much continuous from "Supersymmetry" (and even "STB" was only a few days before that). BtVS, meanwhile, was mostly continuous from "CWDP" to "Showtime." Do the timelines match up at all? Just a guess, but I'd hazard that BtVS is occurring a few weeks or months ahead of AtS-time, even without the crazy episode scheduling. So when Angelus places his call to Dawn, when is Dawn answering? Sometime before "CWDP?" Maybe Faith's little prison attack is the third Bringer attack (if they were indeed the ones who hired the inmate) on the Slayer line, following the SiTs in Istanbul and Frankfurt.
[> [> [> [> Faith in Cell Block H -- WickedBuffy, 08:44:19 03/06/03 Thu

But there have been many times it would have seemed wise for Buffy to call Angel in for help. Or one of the Scoobies, at least. The inconsistancy of how that's handled has always bothered me. And vice versa. It seems to depend much more on circumstances outside the Buffyverse (agents, contractual items, availability of actors) than anything actually going on in the shows.

I agree about the Bar Scene. What was the point? To show how bad Angelus is by staking his ex-gf? (we already know that) To let him know a Slayer was around? (could've made it all shorter, sans Bar, for that) To introduce those two dweeb vampires? (Didn't need the bar for that, either.) They could have used that time for MORE FAITH TIME! :>

But about Faith in prison - we don't really know how many times there were attempts on her life in there previous to the one we witnessed. The guard didn't look very surprised and didn't step in - and commented on the foolishness of the act. Perhaps because it's happened before and Faith always kicked their butts.
[> [> [> Keanu Reeves? -- neaux, 04:24:20 03/06/03 Thu

I for one was put off by the "HOT SHOTs" line from the movie Speed.

So Angel has an affection for Harrison Ford and Angellus has an affection for Keanu Reeves action movies??
[> [> [> [> Well, Faith did look a little Matrixy in some of those fight scenes -- WickedBuffy (gotta love that Faith), 08:45:24 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Her stunts looked like they were done by the 'Charmed' stunt team -- Sofdog, 13:48:32 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Keanu Reeves? -- maddog, 10:49:23 03/06/03 Thu

It wouldn't be as bad if EVERYONE didn't redo that line. Trust me, AtS isn't the first to use it.
[> [> By the way, I actually saw some of this -- dream, 07:12:11 03/06/03 Thu

after my big, self-righteous proclamations to the contrary ("Contradict myself?... I contain multitudes"). Anyway, my roommate had it on and I walked into the room as Faith was fighting in the prison yard. Had to stop and watch Faith, and since I was all tired out and headed to bed anyway, I watched the rest. Gotta say, wouldn't bother again. Every moment Faith was on the screen, it was great. Everything else bored me. There doesn't seem to be much humor in the show - I missed the wit and verbal play I get in Buffy (well, in good Buffy, anyway.) The action seemed to go on and on - would others agree that the fight scenes dominate Angel more? That's a personal preference - I would be happy with My Dinner with Buffy, but I wouldn't mind if every fight scene lasted 5 seconds. Wes certainly seems to have come into his own, but the other characters ranged from dull to, in the case of Connor, really tiresome. (Admittedly, coming in new to Buffy lately would not give me the greatest sense of Willow and Xander, but Andrew and Anya have remained distinctive voices throughout.) Even Angelus seemed to lack, well, bite. I think I'm just constitutionally incapable of watching this show. I guess I'll keep doing what I've been doing for the last couple months - reading the scripts just to get a sense of what's going on, and leaving it at that.
[> [> [> Or you know, it could just be David Fury! lol -- Rahael, 07:55:47 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> I agree. The writing of this ep was pretty sub-par (but on par for Fury)... -- Rob, 10:48:46 03/06/03 Thu

but even Fury couldn't mess up the Faith scenes!

Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Personally, I enjoy most of David Fury's episodes, but felt dissapointed by this one. -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:53:09 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: By the way, I actually saw some of this -- maddog, 10:56:19 03/06/03 Thu

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

sorry, i know that sounds dirogatory...and well, it's meant to be...but not to offend. I just don't know how to disagree with you more. :(

Angel's been funnier than Buffy since it's second season. Buffy tends to get bogged down with tough subjects and yet Angel always has the jokes, always makes me laugh. As for the parts of the episode without Faith (all 2 of them), they were great setups for what's to come
[> [> Re: Big Sister's Clothes (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- maddog, 09:54:02 03/06/03 Thu

One thing I wish would stop or at least I wish would happen less is people say things aren't good or are redundant because "they happened in comics already". That's nice and all, but many of us don't read comics. I'd just appreciate it if you didn't act like since the comic did it first that it was a dumb idea for a show become someone like me hasn't seen the concept yet.
[> Once Upon a 'Star': Clarifications and Annotations (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- cjl, 07:56:24 03/06/03 Thu

Yawn.

[cjl rubs the sleep out of his eyes.]

Let me check the board, and see if anyb--

Oh.

OK, maybe a few clarifications are in order.

Shadowkat, you're right--I see the metaphorical conceit they're working with here: Lilah and the Beast are no longer necessary as the "shadows," so Evil!Cordy and Angelus eliminate them. In a sense, Lilah was also a shadow of Faith; once Lilah is gone and they have their final conversation, Wes goes back to his original salvage project.

As for my main objection, I think most of the posters here hit it better than I did; Angelus was simply "off" for the entire episode. In fact, he was off on two levels: first, Fury nearly killed the ep with that bar scene, which was too "comic bookish" by half. It cut into the drama of what was happening back at the hotel, and the dialogue was atrocious. (David, come on man, I know you can do better than this.) And that demon encased in heavy rubber? I don't even want to talk about him....

Second...I'm sorry, I understand the metaphors and such surrounding Angelus and his second coming, but I can't help but feel that the writers aren't really playing fair with us. Angelus heads out onto the streets of Los Angeles, and he doesn't kill anybody? Nobody? No sight of him leading a new version of the Fanged Four down Century Boulevard, butchering and/or terrorizing any unfortunate humans who cross their path?

When Angel went bad in Buffy S2, you felt the sense of menace, the terror of a superpowerful practicing sadist given the full run of a small community. When Angelus killed Theresa and then Jenny, it hurt like hell because Buffy knew what she did (and didn't do) had real consequences, that more people were going to die if she didn't face up to her duty.

Now, it seems as if the writers are giving Angelus an out every time he tries to kill somebody. Going to kill Lilah? Nope, sorry, that's Cordy's job in the big scheme of things. Going to bite that neo-Theresa? Nope, he gets distracted. What's next? He's about to chow down in a back alley somewhere, and his pager goes off?

OK, I'll grant you, maybe that's the point. Maybe Angelus isn't supposed to be the bad guy this time around. But deep down, I think it's a cheat. I think it would be even more effective if Angelus were shown to be the vicious, bloodthirsty bastard he always was...and STILL wound up working for the good guys. The writers wouldn't have to create ways to ease Angel's conscience (once he gets back in there), and it would be a more honest look at the unfathomable workings of the universe as it balances out the forces in constant opposition.

One of my all time favorite science fictoin short stories is Arthur C. Clarke's "The Star." I'm not going to spoil it for you--I WON'T. (Go down to your local bookstore and pick up the new anthology, "Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke" and read it.) Suffice to say that the catholic priest travelling through the stars discovers that the symbol of the greatest miracle in history of humankind turned out to be the death knell of a mighty civilization. The priest turns his eyes to God and asks why it had to be that way, but there's no answer--and there can be none. The universe is more awesome and more terrible than even a believer in the infinite could imagine.

That is the feeling I wanted from the reappearance of Angelus--but it looks like I'm not going to get it.
[> [> Largely agree (Spoilers Ats 4.13 and Btvs REstless) -- s'kat, 08:58:48 03/06/03 Thu

As for my main objection, I think most of the posters here hit it better than I did; Angelus was simply "off" for the entire episode. In fact, he was off on two levels: first, Fury nearly killed the ep with that bar scene, which was too "comic bookish" by half. It cut into the drama of what was happening back at the hotel, and the dialogue was atrocious. (David, come on man, I know you can do better than this.) And that demon encased in heavy rubber? I don't even want to talk about him....

Oh I completely agree. The worst parts in the episode were the Angelus and Cordelia scenes. Which should not have been the case. Masq is right - Fury writes Angelus as a goof-ball. But I've never been a huge fan of David Fury.

And may I add? See! Not in the minority!! Until you hate an episode that over 80% of fans love, you can't state minority support group. Personally, I may still be in the minority even here - since I preferred Salvage for it's entertainment value over Storyteller. (No I don't want to analyze what this says about me.)

OK, I'll grant you, maybe that's the point. Maybe Angelus isn't supposed to be the bad guy this time around. But deep down, I think it's a cheat. I think it would be even more effective if Angelus were shown to be the vicious, bloodthirsty bastard he always was...and STILL wound up working for the good guys. The writers wouldn't have to create ways to ease Angel's conscience (once he gets back in there), and it would be a more honest look at the unfathomable workings of the universe as it balances out the forces in constant opposition.

Also agree...thinking out-of-character Angelus isn't really working for me. Not sure I like what the writers are doing here. Although I think I know where they are headed. My hunch is they are about to retcon the whole vampire thing and flip the Buffyverse on it's head in the process. I think that's the reason Wes and Cordy went so dark this season in Ats and the Watcher Council was blown up in Btvs.
I think, and I could be wrong, that we're about to learn vampires as seen through adult eyes aren't quite as black and white as seen through the child's. Giles paints the portrait of the black and white villain posing for photos or the cardboard villain, but Xander sees a man in a suite swinging on a swingset by the watcher's side (Restless). Wes sees himself as doing far more honourable things with Angel in Five by Five than he ever did when he was with The Council. And in Spin the Bottle he sees the vampire as the villain who has them in this scenerio, when in truth it is magic and Cordelia. I have this feeling that if the writers pull it off - the ending of Ats and Btvs this year will cause us all to look back over every episode and see them in a new way, the flip side.

It is after all the year of the unreliable narrator for both shows. The villain in Ats is Cordelia - the one person they'd never suspect. The villain in Btvs is non-corporeal and manipulates the evil in the heros to get it's way.
Neither villain can be clearly seen. Both villains make it clear that our worst enemy is ourselves.

Hmmm...

Interesting.

SK
[> [> [> Why won't they let Angelus be Angelus? -- cjl, 10:21:09 03/06/03 Thu

Here's a possible explanation:

When he was on BtVS, it was somehow more acceptable for Angel to GO DARK, kill people, and then receive retribution from the heroine and lead character.

But now, when Angel IS the lead character, perhaps the WB or even Mutant Enemy thinks it's impossible for Angel/Angelus to kill innocents (even when he's not in his "right mind") for the sheer joy of it and expect viewers to come back and root for the character. Perhaps they feel a fresh round of killings would weigh too heavily on Angel's conscience and mess up storylines Joss is planning for the future.

Hence, the near-misses and last-minute distractions.

If that's the artistic decision, I can respect it. I don't agree with it, but it's not my show.
[> [> [> [> Re: Why won't they let Angelus be Angelus? -- Darby, 10:40:10 03/06/03 Thu

There is also the possibility that the current Angelus actually has been resouled, but the soul exerts a weakened influence for some reason. His instincts remain, but his actions seem tainted.

- Or it could be the "don't have the hero killing innocents" thing...
[> [> [> [> [> Have you seen Angelus killing a live person lately? -- WickedBuffy, 17:00:32 03/06/03 Thu

I believe it's Angel, not Angelus. That explains all these "off" things happening. Just for fun, look at all the instances posters have been bringing up and pretend it's Angel pretending to be Angelus. Does it make any more sense? Some sense?

(Well, except for how all those wrecked cars and overturned, burning trucks outside the hotel got hauled away so quickly after the sun came out. Traffic was just zooming by as usual, immediately.)
[> [> [> Very good analysis at the end...wish I'd thought of it myself. -- maddog, 11:26:53 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Once Upon a 'Star': Clarifications and Annotations (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- maddog, 11:23:00 03/06/03 Thu

I think they made it a point to say in the last episode that there were virtually no humans left in LA...partially cause they all scattered with the sun gone, and partially cause the ones that didn't get out were already vamped or killed by the vampires/demons in town. I just think Angel had slim pickins myself.

I'd agree with the fact that it does feel cheap if he doesn't get one GOOD kill while he's Angelus. One devestating one...because...well...that's what he's best known for (Thank you Jenny Calendar).
[> Re: Big Sister's Clothes (spoilers for 'Salvage' and a WKCS as well) -- maddog, 09:29:29 03/06/03 Thu

I know it sounds like he just made things even again but you have to look at the bigger picture. Cordy's been puppetmaster behind the scenes for a while now. Now with 9 episodes left she's found that her big gun is no longer because her second big gun can't be contained. What does this do? It makes her desperate. Now she has to move faster on her other plan...pregnancy. I have no doubt that if the beast were still alive Connor would still be in the dark about the kid. So while you think it's done nothing to advance the story, it actually has.

and the comment about Faith throwing the chains...I'd like to see someone kick the crap out of you and you still have the resolve to pull a stunt like that. Coming up with that was what makes her a great slayer. She's not just methodical...she's imaginative.

I think you're way off on Wes's scene. You could see his inner struggle...wondering if he could have ever saved Lilah, both physically and emotionally. And then the reasoning on redemption...and who can have it...who's worthy of it...that was a great segue into getting Faith.

I like your comments on how things all get back to Buffy. I agree...in fact, they get back to her theme this year too..back to the beginning...watching Wes and Faith reunite, both a little bit older and wiser...both ready to be that watcher/slayer combo that they weren't ready for back in high school.

Yeah, Faith commanded the gang pretty quickly. I think they enjoyed having someone take charge...that's what Angel's always been for them. As for Connor, don't think just because he's gonna be a pappa that he's still not crushing on Faith. Crushes don't go away that fast...especially if she does find a way to handle Angelus in front of them all. It'll just make Cordy even more jealous...and she'll have to do something else drastic.

I thought Faith was nuts for pushing Wes out the window. She's got super strength...she could have broken bones with him. And yes, the slur of lines that came out starting with "Five by Five" were great (there's a post below with a list of them).

I'm hoping we get the other half of that conversation when Buffy resumes at the end of March. And I think they're a little too worried about an apocolypse in Sunnydale to be worried about California and a little blockage of the sun. :)

I like your theory on Lilah being the FE...because I have a theory. It's obvious the FE tried to kill Faith in prison. It may have even happened more than once. Great. It's obvious that isn't going to work. So what could the FE do? why not fill Wes's mind full of redemption thoughts until he sprung Faith. That way now the FE has limitless options in trying to kill Faith. Hell, the FE could even be pushing Faith back to Sunnydale so that the hellmouth could do her in. Who knows?

It'll be interesting to see her back in Sunndale. Remember there are lots of non-closure for the Scoobie gang. Fortunately it won't come all at once as Willow will have the first chance to accept Faith as reformed. But she's got the least issues. I'd say Buffy, Xander and Giles will all have their own issues with her. It's a matter of maturity. Can they put those feelings aside knowing she'll be an asset to the cause. Or will that be part of this "5 episode season finale arc" I keep hearing about...trouble among the ranks as they push for the final battle with The First!
[> You're missing the character of Angelus (spoiler Salvage) -- lunasea, 09:39:40 03/06/03 Thu

But if nobody's going to get hurt, what's the point of the story? That villainy never prospers? Come on, I knew that was bull when I started collecting comics, and I was seven years old.

That wasn't the point of Angelus killing the Beast. It wasn't some clever plot device to get The Beast out of the way. Angelus doesn't play well with others. He never did. His interaction with The Beast harkened back to when he was rather insolent to the Master or when he liked to torture Spike about Dru. In this episode we see vamps trying to cling on to him and his reaction to that. He has a bit of a superiority complex.

Angelus didn't like being lured to the warehouse and played. He is the one that does the playing. Taking out The Beast not only removed a potential foe, but it sent a message to the Beast's boss. Angelus is big on messages. Maybe he will draw a picture of the Beast exploding and leave it for the Big Boss.

Nobody get's hurt in the Buffyverse?!?! Jesse was vamped and dusted. Buffy died. Jenny was killed. Angel went to hell. Harmony was vamped. Angel was brutally tortured. Doyle died. Wesley was brutally tortured by Faith. Spike was tortured by Glory. Buffy died again. Sunnydale almost burned to the ground. Tara died. LA almost burned to the ground.

But the shows aren't about physical danger and death. They are about emotions. If you don't see that, no wonder you think you are looking at a comic book. The best parts don't have that many lines. The show exists in the silences.

And in case you are wondering, there is a reason it is called the "Buffyverse."
[> [> I think I do understand Angelus. That wasn't the root of my objections. -- cjl, 10:06:19 03/06/03 Thu

See my "Once Upon a Star" post, above.
Somebody Save Me...Salvaging One's Soul (Spoilers for Ats Salvage and Btvs NLM) -- shadowkat, 21:15:54 03/05/03 Wed

Tonight's episode of Angel made me want to go back and re-watch Five by Five and Sanctuary from Season 2 Ats - (for those who haven't seen them, it's the two-parter where Faith is hired by W&H to kill Angel, tortures Wes in hopes to convince Angel to kill her, but instead Angel forgives her and convinces her to turn herself in). Tonight's episode entitled Salvage reminded me of something that Buffy and Angel keep saying...about redemption and saving the soul.

From Never Leave Me:

BUFFY to Spike, who like Faith does in Sanctuary with Angel, asks Buffy to kill him, believing he is past redemption and should die. This is Buffy's response to his plea:

You're not alive because of pain. You're not alive because of hate. You're alive because I saw you change. I see your penance. You faced the monster inside and fought back. You risked everything to be a better man. And you can be. You may not see it but I do.

From Sanctuary - this is Angel's response to Cordelia and Wes' views that Faith is beyond redemption and can't be saved.

Angel: "We can't just arbitrarily decide whose soul is worth saving and whose isn't."

We've been having a ton of conversations about redemption lately which always annoy me, because usually they are thinly disguised soap boxes for the writer to preach their views on the only ways this should be done. (Which I'm about to do, hypocrit? Me? Nooo.)Views that are grounded in whatever religious beliefs were indoctrinated in the writer from birth. Seldom do these views come from hard-earned experience. And often when they do? They come from pain and grief over a tragic loss and are well thinly veiled excuses for vengeance. If Btvs and Ats have taught us anything - it has been that vengeance destroys everything it touches and is never sated. It does not bring back the dead or relieve pain. Okay getting off my own soap box now, hence the reason I despise these discussions. (Or rather attempting to.)

I'm not sure you can understand redemption until you are lost yourself. Or the need for it. What does Giles tell Buffy in I Will Always Have Eyes For You? "Buffy, people forgive each other not because they deserve it but because they need it." But truth is, it is not up to us. And that is something Angel and Buffy understand - it is NOT up to us. Such things as forgiveness and redemption and salvation are out of our hands. We have no control over what others do and what happens to them. We only have control and somewhat limited at that over what we do and how we react to others actions.

Wesley doesn't understand this at first. He can't understand in Five by Five and Sancturary, after Faith has rather gruesomely tortured him with fire and knives and hot pokers how Angel can possibly let her live or forgive her. "There's evil in this girl," he states. "She's not redeemable." Cordelia agrees, getting Angel to sign papers so she can take a vacation. Ah the difference a few years make. Now Wesley has had his own little journey into darkness, he's done things and felt things that make him wince and feel ashamed. And well don't get me started on Cordelia, assuming that is Cordelia. Wes is in a way where Faith was in Sanctuary, aching for a little Salvation. We all need it you know, sooner or later, we all wonder if we ourselves are salvageable. If anyone out there can forgive or save us.

This is the question that Wes keeps asking himself. Am I salvageable? Do I have a chance? He is staring at Lilah's dead body as he asks it. He couldn't even save Lilah. And it was vitally important to him that somehow he be able to do just that. He wanted to save her from the encroaching darkness. He wanted to give her a chance at redemption. But Lilah is beyond his reach. It's too late. And as Lilah asks...whether anyone can be saved whether we can choose who should be salvaged. And whether he can even be a proper judge, Wes remembers something...something he'd forgotten, something Angelus had reminded him of in Soulless, his first sin, his first failure as a Watcher which ironically leads him to the answer. The one person who may possibly aid him in his quest to salvage Angel is the same person he failed years ago. The same person he once condemned.

Ironically it is Lilah who has had the answers all along. I knew there was a reason I loved her. Lilah is the one who tells the gang to get Angelus to kill the Beast. Heck she tells Cordy that Angelus is the one person smart enough and wicked enough to do the job. (Calvary). And Lilah is the one who in Wes' head directs him to go after Faith.

After Faith breaks out, she tells him there's no way she's killing Angelus. Angel is the one person who believed in her when no one else would - he saw the good in her and she's gonna to return the favor. Wes smiles slightly - why do you think I chose you, he states. Wes has in a sense learned more in his four years of fighting beside Angel then he learned when he worked in the Council or Giles appears to have learned playing Watcher to Buffy. Wes believes as Angel does - who are we to determine whose soul must be saved? And unlike Giles in Passion, does not go after Angelus in a fit of vengeance, as Evil!Cordy no doubt expected. That's the thing about evil; it doesn't understand compassion, forgiveness, or remorse. Mercy isn't in its vocabulary. Only vengeance, lust, power, and rage are.

Faith of all people is the one who gets Connor to back down, who forces him to not kill Angelus. You don't kill him. I won't let you. Compare this Faith to the one in Revelations who was all prepared to kill Angel because he was a vampire and fought Buffy over it. Now she fights his own son, to prevent the son from killing the father. Faith has recaptured her own faith (excuse the pun) in humankind and in souls. She no longer hates herself and she owes Angel for that.

************************************************************

The song "Somebody Save Me" from Smallville keeps running through my head as I write this. I keep thinking about what it means to Salvage or Save something.

Salvage according to my desktop dictionary (American Heritage Dictionary) is defined as: a noun 1a The rescue of a ship. B. Compensation given to those who aid in such a rescue. 2a The act of saving imperiled property from loss. B. The property so saved.

Contrast this to save - a verb - meaning simply to rescue from harm.

And I think about a movie I saw this week called The Quiet American, based on Graham Green's book of the same name. I've never seen the original film with Marlon Brando, so can't comment on it. But this one directed by Philip Noyce and starring Michael Cain and Brenden Fraiser, is an interesting moral play on what it means to try and save something and the arrogance that goes into believing we can. It explores the relationships between a world-weary British journalist, his Vietnamese lover, and an American. The movie is shot entirely from the journalist's point of view and examines how American's came to Vietnam in the 1950s arrogantly believing they could save it from itself. Instead making the situation far worse. The American wants to save the journalist's lover from well what he considers to be her sordid amoral life and wants to save the country from a political/economic system he believes to be sordid and evil. In attempting to do so, the American becomes worse than the problems he so idealistically wishes to fight. His solution causes more deaths. He arrogantly sees himself as the White Knight riding to the rescue but in reality? He's just another well-meaning ass spreading death.

The power and prestige of being the savior can be a tempting thing. Think about it? You can be the hero. Do the hard task. Save the day. Wes falls into this trap in Season 3 Angel, arrogantly believing he can save Angel and Angel's son by kidnapping the boy. Instead he just makes everything worse. Then he believes he can play savior by enslaving Justine in order to find Angel. And later he gets involved with Lilah - in an attempt to punish himself and possibly salvage what's left of her soul at the same time. He believes he has the power to do all this - and forgets that he only has the power over himself. Wes' arrogance leads him to de-soul Angel and to bring Lilah into the hotel. Wes does not start doing the right thing - until he begins to come face to face with the failures, begins to admit he's not the hero, he's not the savor, and he needs help. He needs to change his modus operandi. Stop making it about him. Because in a sense that's what it has become, all about him. It's when he lets go of the pride and goes to get Faith...that Wes begins to turn. His epiphany comes oddly enough with Lilah's death.

Cordelia is in a similar boat. Her vanity and arrogance at the end of Season 3 - believing she could be a higher being and save the world has lead us to an evil Cordy. Although I remain unconvinced that this is really Cordelia and not an evil clone sent to earth by Skip while the real Cordelia remains trapped in her mystical prison watching everything. But that does not change what brought Cordelia to this fate. Arrogance. The seduction of being powerful, of being important, of being the higher being, the savior! Now, ironically, Cordelia is anything but. It's not the Beast that came slouching toward Bethlehem, it was Cordelia or whatever took her body.

I'm wondering about this whole Cordelia thing. And what it means in the story. We know now that she's the Big Bad or working for it. It was Cordelia who raised the Beast. But the Beast being dead - doesn't hurt her plans any. Angelus was right - it's just a minion, a lackey. There's something worse behind it.

So circling back to the whole saving motif - I find it hilariously funny that it was Angelus who saved the world from darkness, not Angel, not Wes, not Faith, not Connor - but Angelus and indirectly Evil!Cordy who set him free. The savor in this piece was the villain. Not the hero. In a way Lilah and Wes were right - it took the beast inside Angel to destroy the Beast that walked LA. Possibly because this beast metaphorically represented Angel's. And what kills the Beast? A sword made from it's own body. Which Angel saw in his dream. Cordy did have the answer - and it was because of Cordy that the Beast created the sword, which in turn Cordelia uses to kill Lilah and Angelus uses to kill the Beast.

Whoa. Cordy/Lilah. Angel/Beast. Lilah is in a way Cordelia's negative side. In Billy - Cordelia looks at Lilah and states : "You're what I was, except I had better shoes." So when Evil! Cordy appears, Lilah is no longer needed. Evil!Cordy kills her. Just as when Angelus appears - The Beast is no longer needed - so Angelus kills the Beast. The redundancy is cancelled out. And it's only fitting that Evil!Cordy uses the tool made from Angelus' Beast to destroy Lilah and Angelus' uses the same tool to kill the Beast. I take from myself to destroy my shadow and in doing so, I become the shadow - they've salvaged their worst half and incorporated it in themselves. Because if you think about it, Evil!Cordy was not revealed until she killed Lilah in Calvary (the title requests saving - someone come save us.) and by killing Lilah, Cordy literally becomes Lilah, the evil bitch, and Angel by killing the Beast in his dream becomes the Beast, Angelus. So Angelus' destruction of the Beast in a way is redundant.

In this episode and in Calvary, our three main characters came face to face with their dark sides. And the one who appeared to be the darkest at the beginning of the year, Wes, is the one who was able to salvage what was left of his soul and meet head on his worst failure, giving that failure, Faith, the opportunity to salvage her own soul. What will become of Angel and Cordelia is well anyone's guess, but for the moment at least they have become their demon side, by killing it, they've incorporated it in themselves.

Hope this made sense and adds to the discussion.

For the record? I loved Salvage. (I agree with cjl's post below about the drawbacks - I wanted more from the Lilah sequence and more from Wes' first scene with Faith.) It had a few drawbacks, but I'm not in an overly critical mood this week. I'll let someone else nitpick for a change.

Thanks for reading. Agree? Disagree? Feedback appreciated.

SK
[> Do I sense a 'the Good of' and 'Greatest Moments of' Faith comming soon? -- Majin Gojira, 21:47:07 03/05/03 Wed

[> [> ?????Don't understand your post -- sk, 22:05:52 03/05/03 Wed

Was it meant to be snarky? I didn't mention much on Faith.
[> [> [> Probably not fully, I just wanted to say that :D -- Majin Gojira, 05:24:33 03/06/03 Thu

[> Re: Somebody Save Me...Salvaging One's Soul (Spoilers for Ats Salvage and Btvs NLM) -- Apophis, 22:09:06 03/05/03 Wed

I agree with everything you've said... except that Cordelia "ascended" out of arrogance. I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of how things happened. Cordy was the recipient of powers she didn't understand and was placed in a new position within the team by those powers. She had no idea what the ramifications of her new state of being were. When Skip came to her and told her she had to become a demigoddess or whatever, she saw it as here duty. It wasn't something she did to elevate herself; she thought it was the right thing to do. My evidence for this is the fact that she didn't tell anyone (granted, she didn't have a choice, but she didn't try either); she saught no glory for what she was about to do. She did it with the understanding that she would be seperated from Angel (and, by extension, everyone else). I understand that a certain amount of arrogance is intrinsic to Cordy's character, but I don't think her rise to PTB had anything to do with self-glorification.
[> [> Re: Somebody Save Me...Salvaging One's Soul (Spoilers for Ats Salvage and Btvs NLM) -- Dannyblue, 22:52:13 03/05/03 Wed

I think that, in some ways, Cordy became obsessed with "doing the right thing" in season 3. Whether it was not telling anyone she was dying from the visions so she could keep helping Angel, or becoming part demon to keep the visions, or ascending because the Powers said it was the right thing to do, she seemed focussed on the mission, on making sacrifices for the common good.

After her family lost their money, Cordy kind of lost her identity. She was no longer the rich girl who could have anything she wanted. And, thanks to her relationship with Xander, she was no longer the most popular, the one everyone else followed. (I think she tried to reclaim some of this identity in "Homecoming", which is why she so bitterly fought Buffy for the title.)

Cordy moved to LA to reclaim her identity. To become a famous actress, someone who's "somebody". Only that didn't work out. She wasn't the best actress in town. She wasn't the only beautiful girl in the room. She no longer ruled. When she did get an acting job (in "Belonging") it didn't give her the status or respect she expected. In fact, she was treated like an object. Not very important. In fact, replaceable.

Getting the visions gave her an identity. She was vision girl. Angel's seer. Irreplaceable. In some ways, his mission partially became her. And, as the seasons progressed, she seemed to cling to this identity more and more. You first really see it in "First Impressions", when she decides it's her mission to save Gunn from himself because she had a vision of him in danger.

By "Tomorrow", Cordy believes that saying no to a greater mission from the Powers would be selfish. A step back into Queen C mode. A betrayal of the person she's become, the identity she's adopted. The Powers were telling her this was something she had to do, that it as for the greater good. So she did what she was asked to do because she thought it was right.

I think what ME is trying to say is that blindly doing what is "right" can be as bad as doing nothing at all.
[> [> [> Agree, good post -- s'kat, 08:02:20 03/06/03 Thu

I think what ME is trying to say is that blindly doing what is "right" can be as bad as doing nothing at all.

Yes - that was what I was trying to get out. Arrogance is the wrong word. Not sure vanity works either. I think it's more a combo of self-righteous blindness and viewing your identity as "powerful hero?"

At any rate - it links in with the metaphor I was trying to use from The Quiet American - where the American's actions, while on the surface seem to be the right thing, are far more disastorous than the journalist's view not to do anything at all.

I think Cordelia got caught up in her save the world mentality, her view that she could and associated her entire identity with that. Forgetting that actually the best part of what she did - was NOT the visions or the supernatural powers she'd obtained from an outside source, but the compassion and heart she gave the AI unit. They haven't been the same since she left them. It's her human heart that gave them meaning, not the visions. She had a purpose and a role prior to Doyle's unasked for gift.
She just didn't see it. It became all about the power, the visions, the going upwards for her.

Anyways agree with your post.

SK
[> Re: Somebody Save Me...Salvaging One's Soul (Spoilers for Ats Salvage and Btvs NLM) -- Scroll, 22:26:02 03/05/03 Wed

Ironically it is Lilah who has had the answers all along. I knew there was a reason I loved her. Lilah is the one who tells the gang to get Angelus to kill the Beast. Heck she tells Cordy that Angelus is the one person smart enough and wicked enough to do the job. (Calvary). And Lilah is the one who in Wes' head directs him to go after Faith.

Sniff. Bye Lilah, we'll miss you lots! Lilah as truth-teller is always a kicker, even if she's only a figment of Wesley's imagination. Personally, I thought the basement scenes were perfect. Stark, aching, and contemplative. I felt like I was watching a theatre production, actually. Wes really surprised me cuz I was hoping for Giles/"Passion" type response to Lilah's death. Instead, Wesley reacts by wanting to help the one who (he thinks) killed her. He does this by embracing Angel's belief of redemption. And he perhaps starts to save his own soul.

Not everyone will agree, I'm sure, but I loved the Slayer/Watcher Tag-Team, Redux. Both Wes and Faith have changed, grown -- I think they might make it as friends at least, if not as Slayer and Watcher. They reminded me of S3 Buffy/Giles. Working as a unit, Slayer in the lead but with the Watcher close behind, backing her up.

I take from myself to destroy my shadow and in doing so, I become the shadow - they've salvaged their worst half and incorporated it in themselves.

Love your analysis, s'kat. Don't have anything to add except, very much agree. Though I'm trying to figure out the significance of Angelus stabbing the Beast with a dagger made from his own bones. That Angelus' weakness is something from within?
[> [> Framing metaphor & Wesley in the sun (spoilers) -- Scroll, 22:48:20 03/05/03 Wed

BTW, I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but this is the very first episode since "Sleep Tight" that we see Wesley in the sunlight.* Every time we've seen him since "Sleep Tight", he's been indoors or it's been night.

But then he goes to see Faith in prison. He speaks to her, recognising that Angel was right, that even the murderous Slayers can be redeemed. He tells her about Angel, and she doesn't even hesitate, just crashes through the glass and kicks some butt. Then Faith and Wesley fly through the window together, out into the bright sunlight, falling and flying like Faith once did with Buffy in "Graduation Day" and with Angel in "Five by Five". They fall, land safely, and it's all five-by-five.




* Okay, to be fair, Wesley was kind of in the sun for like 2 seconds in "Long Day's Journey" but since that sunny scene was more for Angel's benefit than Wes, I'm going to pretend it never happened : )
[> [> [> Re: Framing metaphor & Wesley in the sun (spoilers) -- s'kat, 07:53:09 03/06/03 Thu

Actually, in a way it's the first time we've seen both Faith and Wes in sunlight in a while. Both tended to be in night scenes in Angel when last seen on the series.

I agree, I actually did love the Wes/Faith scenes. And I think they did have more of a mutual respect vibe going.
He wasn't trying to manipulate her and she wasn't trying to second-guess or belittle him. They weren't acting like Watcher/Slayer though - Wes stopped being Watcher long ago.
They were acting as a team. Very important distinction. Watcher's tend to hold back from the action - watch it and comment. Here, Wes is in the action. Only in the car scene where he stops to see if she's up to it - does he act as Watcher and it is the darkest act he does in the episode.
[> disagree in a small degree -- Vickie, 22:34:38 03/05/03 Wed

Cavalry would mean "someone come save me." Calvary means a place of suffering.

What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name....

might be a chrysanthemum.
[> [> Re: disagree in a small degree -- s'kat, 07:45:34 03/06/03 Thu

According to Mere Smith's post on the Bronze Beta, which Belladonna posted on the board when Calvary aired:

it means "someone come rescue me" and "the place Christ carried the cross too or place of suffering". So the writers meant it as both.
[> [> [> Re: so that would make it -- crgn, 12:47:25 03/06/03 Thu

"the place where someone came to be the savior"
[> Preserving this excellent thread -- Masq, 09:39:45 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Thanks Masq! -- s'kat, 09:49:40 03/06/03 Thu

[> Lovely job, shadowkat! -- ponygirl, 11:52:39 03/06/03 Thu

Excellent point with the Angel/Beast, Cordy/Lilah parallels -- something new to wrap my brain around!

One more definition to add onto your collection for the word salvage: something saved from destruction or waste and put to further use. A great definition of Wesley's use of Faith IMHO and something that might be applied to the entire AI gang.
Angel, SPOILERY -- valor_faith, 21:46:42 03/05/03 Wed

I just finished watching the first of Faith's three appearances on Angel...and I have to say I was kind of disappointed. I loved Faith, she was just so strong and beautiful and even more in her element than when she first showed up in season 3, but it's like, there's a real skanky element to the writing surrounding her, you know? Like, with Xena Warrior Princess... it's like it's not enough to sexualize black women on the show, and other people of colour, if you have dark hair you should really be sexualized. I think this issue also hit with me as a survivor of abuse, just ok, Angel's comments make for great steamy fanfic....plus, well, Faith, fanfic reason enough... but I just really kind of felt like... I was really kind a sad when I heard that Eliza wasn't doing the Faith spinoff..but now I'm still sad, but it's like... what's the point? They'll never get it right.

Oh, and btw, I'm new here. Hi.
[> Welcome! (no spoilers) -- Rahael, 04:07:16 03/06/03 Thu

Welcome Valor Faith!

People may not be responding to your post because it's not clear whether you have future spoilers. I was about to say that you were spoilery only for last night's ep, only you do reveal how long Faith is going to be in AtS!

Most people here aren't spoiled. Obviously, I am - I think you make some very interesting points about sexuality on BtVS.
[> [> Possible Vague Hint of a Very Well Known Casting Spoiler for BtVS -- Rahael, trying to be safe - the very pure should not read !!, 04:17:24 03/06/03 Thu

Damn, I still don't think I'm safe.
[> evil hair colours -- Helen, 05:29:09 03/06/03 Thu

Well, brunettes are frequently the bitches, and we've seen this stereotype reinforced with Cordy - hair getting lighter until it's so blonde she's ready to ascend to the twinkly lights, now she's nasty, brown again.
[> [> Reverse colour coding -- KdS, 05:35:31 03/06/03 Thu

But I was very impressed with Darla wearing white for much of her evil vampy period in late-S2 AtS.
[> [> [> So did early Dru -- Rahael, 05:44:26 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> evil hair and subversive clothes -- Helen, 05:58:41 03/06/03 Thu

I should probably defer to the mighty Honorificus on these matters, but I liked Darla and (early) Dru in white. Sort of wolf in sheep's clothing. Dru in particular always struck me as more sinister in S2 Buffy than at any other time - nuts, physically frail but with a huge psychological and emotional pull on a particular blond vamp, who had plenty of minions to control. And the white clothes made her extra scary - one of the few scary moments in Buffy (actually frightening as opposed to the usual) was her little exchange with that kid at the beginning of Lie to Me.
[> [> [> hey--maybe cordy...(spoiler for end of s6) -- anom, 20:51:58 03/06/03 Thu

...was already evil when she ascended to become a "higher being" & the flowy white clothing was reverse color coding! That might even explain why she was so bored w/being in a state of "pure joy"...nah, maybe not.
[> [> Slotkin on hair color -- dream, 06:12:47 03/06/03 Thu

Joss loves Richard Slotkin, and Slotkin argued that James Fenimore Cooper's use of the innocent, "civilized" blonde girl (who can also be cold or prissy) and the dangerous, "savage" brunette (who can also be more "natural" and feeling) started this color-coding in American popular culture. He may be right -I don't think this particular split permeates British writing in the same way that it does American writing and film. Though of course my favorite use of this is in Vertigo, and Hitchcock is officially a Brit, so maybe at this point there's been too much cross-influence to say. (Of course, Hitchcock was so Americanized, he's hardly a good example.)
[> [> [> It's more complicated -- KdS, 08:22:15 03/06/03 Thu

Because SMG isn't a natural blonde, and judging by the childhood scene in Killed By Death and the occasional eps where roots are visible, Buffy isn't either. See, she does everything she can not to conform to stereotype.
[> [> [> [> Interesting...here's what Whedon says -- s'kat, 10:57:46 03/06/03 Thu

What's interesting is according to interviews from both the actors and the writers, Buffy was originally intended to be a brunette and Gellar was brunette when she tried out for the role. SMG is not a natural blond.

They changed their mind however, because Whedon wanted to emphasize his original concept which is the tiny blond chick running through the alley who gets grabbed by monsters, but instead of being the one killed, she kicks the monsters ass.

From SFX VAmpire Special Edition, circa 2002/Dec 2001.
p. 37. Joss Whedon on The Buffy Movie.

"Where did the idea come from? There's actually an incredibly specific answer to that question. It came from watching a horror movie and seeing the typical ditzy blonde walk into a dark alley and getting killed. I just thought that I would love to see a scene where the ditzy blonde walks into a dark alley, a monster attacks her and she kicks its ass."


If you re-watch Welcome To The Hellmouth - you'll notice the story opens with a mislead, the ditzy blond in the catholic school girl uniform with the bad boy. We think the girl is in danger. We're all prepared for the bad boy to attack her. Whoops. Nope the ditzy blond is a vampire and bites him.

Whedon is subverting the ditzy blond cliche more than he's focusing on the purity cliche. Hitchcock subverted the blond as pure Angel cliche in his films. The cool blond was often the source of the chaos. Not to be trusted. Whedon plays a bit with this idea with the use of Darla as femme fatal in both series.

I think the brunette as negative side...sort of came into being by accident.
[> [> [> [> Re: It's more complicated -- Miss Edith, 18:33:02 03/06/03 Thu

Actually Buffy is portrayed as a natural blonde now I think. In flashbacks in WOTW with five year old Buffy welcoming Dawn back from the hospital a very blonde little girl is playing the part. I think they have kept the blonde girl as young Buffy in photos around the house?
[> [> [> Re: OT - Hitchcock's heroines are always blonde and small-bosomed -- Brian, 10:01:07 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Dont forget the Willow, the 'redhead with the fiery temper' stereotype! -- WickedHairNet <-- ' dumb blonde' like Harmony :>, 08:08:43 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Re: evil hair colours -- Slainey, 08:40:35 03/06/03 Thu

Although it's been proven untrue a lot of people think that hair dye can hurt a developing baby. I wondered if that's why Charisma went back to her natural haircolor.

I don't know about Willow and being a "firey red head". By the time she got all firey her hair was dark. She was more in the Red heads are clever like a fox catagory for most of the show.

(BTW I have red hair and contemplated dying it dark. My friends went "Oh no, she's turning evil." so I'v stuck with red for now.)
[> [> deliberate visual imagery? -- xanthe, 08:51:45 03/06/03 Thu

Jumping off from the idea of good/evil being indicated by hair coloring, it does seem that the creators have gone for some contrastive imagery in the casting of their principle characters. Buffy was imagined as a blonde from the very beginning of her character as a reaction to the dumb blonde sterotype. I don't know if the rest of the color sterotypes hold true, it has struck me how Buffy, Willow, and Xander's hair colors are very distinctive: blonde, red, and brown which immediately identify the charcters. As the seasons progressed, Willow got redder and Buffy got blonder, increasing the contrast. (Xander stayed the same, but he's a boy so any hair color change would have been weird). Now I'm not suggesting that they chose the actors based on hair color, but someone what probably pleased with the result. Look at the Spike/Dru combo and the Angel/Darla pairing- very obviously a light/dark contrast. I do think that Faith being a brunette was deliberate, but not necessarily because they wanted to telegraph that she was evil, but because they wanted to have her be immediately revealed as the reverse of Buffy. Even the early relationships kinda fell along contrastive lines: Xander/Cordelia - brunette, Willow/Oz - redheaded (only sometimes for Oz). Obviously Angel wasn't a blond, but his coloring fit more with Buffy's while at the same time it showed his darkness. However, Riley's blondness was probably more of a deliberate comment on his character - everything that Angel wasn't. This has broken down a bit in recent seasons with Anya's revolving door of hair styles and colors, but I think that in early seasons this was more obvious.

I shudder to think what this theory might mean for Cordelia's parade of blonde, blonder, and yetch! but perhaps that can be dismissed as pure indecisiveness.

I'm not saying that the casting people only saw people who would fit the right place in the hair tint spectrum, but the results are too striking to be done by chance.
[> [> [> Anya's hair -- Arethusa, 09:08:32 03/06/03 Thu

After rewatching Selfless, I think it's very apt that Anya keeps changing hair color and styles. She kept trying on new personalities throughout her long life, as well as new appearances. That's typical of someone who is trying to figure out who she is.
[> [> Then again, have there been any real bald people on BtVS? -- WickedBuffy ::thinking about Smallvilles Lex Luthor::, 09:20:21 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> Nathan Reed -- KdS, 09:42:54 03/06/03 Thu

Very cool and very evil W&H lawyer in late-S2 AtS. Never did find out what happened to him - by S3 he'd been replaced by the frankly lame Linwood. Also, I don't think Holland had much hair. Plus there's the Master of course...
[> [> [> [> hmm, do they fit into any of the little boxes we've made here? -- WickedBuffy, 10:12:18 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Snyder -- Slainey, 12:17:30 03/06/03 Thu

Case closed!

But wait there's Wood. Bald but dark facial hair.
Oh, I give up!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Didn't Snyder have a 'fringe'? -- WickedCoiffure, 16:37:07 03/06/03 Thu

Hey! Semantics.....spoilers for AtS 'Salvage' -- Rufus, 00:17:09 03/06/03 Thu

From Buffy 7.1 "Lessons"

GILES: You are. In the end, we all are who we are ... no matter how much we may appear to have changed.


Started with a quote from Lessons because it means just as much to ATS as it does to Buffy. Wesley sits by the body of Lilah and has an inner dialogue that we can see by Wes looking very much like the hardened man he became after last year's throat slitting....and as Lilah (perhaps the anima part of his self) speaking to him. One bit stands out.

Lilah: Wesley you know that's not what I'm talking about. You couldn't save me from me.

For all your supposed darkness..edge of the razor mystique, there was always a small part of you that thought that you could pull me back from the brink of my evil, evil ways.

Help me find redemption.

Angel's influence influence I suppose. The whole "not giving up on someone no matter how far he or she has fallen."


This is the point where Wesley does an about face and decides to bring in Faith to help him capture Angel, his friend who has fallen so far, but is still inside of Angelus. Faith helps because Angel stood by her when no one else did. And Faith she helps because no matter how far she fell she is still a slayer. She goes up against Angelus and The Beast.....The Beast kicks her ass.....and says something you might want to remember.....

The Beast: This is all you are? I had heard the Slayer possessed great strenth. But there's no real power here. My masters power is beyond all limits. Beyond your petty imagining. You are weak. You're nothing. You could not even defeat me.

The Beast is just about to finish Faith off and Angelus comes to the rescue....he takes out The Beast with a simple knife made out of the Beast himself....hmmm kinda like the only one you really are up against is yourself. Angelus attributes his actions to Angel's "retarded dreams" yet Angelus is curious enough to test that dream out. Who needs weapons when in this episode words seem to be doing all the conquering? Remember a line the insane Dru said to Spike in Fool for Love......

Dru: Your wealth lies here... and here. In the spirit and... imagination.

In both shows the question is "Who are you?" Another good question just may be "Where are you?"
[> I forgot.....Faith and Buffy -- Rufus, 00:29:46 03/06/03 Thu

Nice touch with the battle between The Beast and Faith...and one of the first battles between Buffy and the Uber Vamp...both spit blood into the face of their attacker. Buffy then figured out how to defeat the Uber Vamp using just a little imagination instead of just brute strength.
[> Re: Hey! Semantics -- Celebaelin, 01:06:57 03/06/03 Thu

I don't really understand what you're working towards here. Are you saying that there is some deliberate or accidental misunderstanding which is preventing effective communication (or interaction)? Or perhaps that the characters are afraid that revealing the reality about their inner thoughts would leave them vulnerable? That the "Who are you?" and/or "Where are you?" questions are not being simply enough asked and the characters tendency towards prioritizing themselves dictates that without (and possibly even with) that simple form of the question being asked no answer will be forthcoming? That without very precise semantics the desire of essentially selfish characters for dominance or predominance allows for deliberately obtuse interpretations of language and behaviour in order to both confuse and to duck issues which should ideally be resolved quickly?

It wouldn't surprise me if I'm a million miles from what you meant but you're going to have to spell it out to me. Maybe if you use small words and speak really slowly I'll get it.
[> Angelus' personality encompasses Angel's (Spoilers AtS S3) -- Celebaelin, 05:10:30 03/06/03 Thu

Having re-re-read your post I get that bit, if that's what you meant!

I absolutely agree, a lot of the disdain with which the baddies regard the goodies is rooted in the fact that in many situations they are essentially impotent. If they choose to act then they will be directly responsible for harm befalling other sentient (maybe souled and possibly even broadly good beings). If they choose not to act then they are abdicating responsibility for the safety of those that morally they should act to protect, which will most likely result in harm befalling the innocent.

It's the kind of dilemma that big bads delight in confronting heros with. The evils have no qualms, all suffering (maybe even their own) is desirable. The goods have to decide which is the less harmful path generally speaking and cope with the consequences that their choices and actions have for individuals. Buffy - Angel, Giles - Ben etc. (within the etc.s are some which were avoidable from a 'good to win in the third act' perspective IMHO) we see that characters cannot be entirely pure if they choose to "...take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them...".

I agree that Angels position is complicated by his confusion about which good and evil instincts are derived from his human half and which from his demonic half. He's criticised when he allows the W&H wine tasting to turn into Dru and Darla's fun filled chow time (personally I struck up the band and threw streamers - "and yet I just can't seem to care" LOL) but now it seems everybody's come to the party but without quite the same sense of poetic justice (except maybe Fred, and that was thwarted). Maybe acting as an agent of revenge isn't THE answer, but it's AN answer, an effective rebuke to the forces of evil who consider themselves beyond the reach of anyone who might oppose them.

If, as it seems, virtually every human who is technically a white hat is now tainted as a result of their will to oppose apocalypse will Angel accept his role as permanent champion and give up any wish for a return to humanity, possibly even accepting that his aspect as Angelus has its' uses as a force for good in the wider conflict. Enter another souled vampire, aha! "Here's one I made earlier."

I bet you didn't know you could make souled vampires out of household detergent bottles, ping-pong balls, paper clips, cotton reels and sticky-backed plastic (but get an adults permission before you pick up those scissors).

C
Joss's LoTR stop wait I thought of one -- MsGiles, 01:55:00 03/06/03 Thu

In Moria they all lose their memories. Boromir thinks he's Aragorn, Frodo has a whale of a time going invisible with the ring, Legolas takes a while to humorously realise he's a wussy elf, Sam and Gandalf wake up together and are puzzled but decide to try to make a go of it. When the orcs attack they all scream.
40399... Okay I must research, this had to be CODE for something. (spoilers, AtS Salvage) -- Briar Rose, 01:58:44 03/06/03 Thu

Unfortunatly, a friend needed coddling and I nver got into an episode guide to look up exactly when Faith first appeared on Buffy.

I believe it was around April, which could relate to 4/03/99 or maybe it was ep 4.3 (or in this case .=o as in 4o399?) in 1999?

It just struck me as some inside joke, the way the "Guard" stated it so clearly and deliberatly.

Also love the "non-cross over" of Angelus calling DAWN and asking if her sister was home.*L

And what is up with Evil/Cordy? So much for everyone swearing that they wouldn't write the pregnancy into the storyline. Man I love SPOILERS!!! I'm such a slut.*L

I'm absolutely giddy over this episode!
[> Re: 40399... Okay I must research, this had to be CODE for something. (spoilers, AtS Salvage) -- Tyreseus, 03:12:07 03/06/03 Thu

I think you may be on to something with the April 4, 1999 - but it wasn't Faith's first appearance.

That was "Faith, Hope and Trick" originally broadcast on October 13, 1998.

And it wasn't when Faith entered a coma in "Graduation Day, Part 1" which aired on May 18, 1999.

It could have been the day they filmed that episode, but I'm not really familiar with the BtVS shooting schedule and if that would have been a reasonable time.

Perhaps some rabid fan can ask Joss someday.
[> [> 40399 -- KdS, 05:31:43 03/06/03 Thu

If we go by the American date system (mm/dd/yy) then 3rd April 1999 would be somewhere between the transmission date of Enemies (16th March 1999) and the original planned pre-Columbine transmission date of Earshot (27th April 1999). It's interesting that Enemies has Faith teaming up for much of the ep with who she thins is Angelus.
Set Design/Locations in Salvage (some spoils) -- neaux, 04:49:05 03/06/03 Thu

I dont really have anything thought provoking or mind blowing to post.. but I just wanted to start a topic on how COOL/GOOD the Scenes looked in last night's show.

The outdoor prison scene with Faith was cool. Bringing the Sun back into the Angel Series with the prison scene really made my eyes squint (like I had just seen the sun after being in the dark for 6 weeks). It had a very dry desert-y feel.

And most importantly, I thought the Welcome Faith drape was really huge. It looked good. That set in particular looked like a Salvage yard.. I dont know if it was supposed to be or not.. but it did have the look.

But over all I thought these sets had the MOVIE Look to them. (Except for the Bar scene, could those monsters have looked more rubbery?)

The Prison scene made me think of Terminator 2. Faith/Sarah Connor. Makes her remark to Connor more sensical.

The basement scene with Wes had its own eeriness too.
[> I agree, neaux (vague spoilerish Salvage) -- WickedBuffy, 10:51:41 03/06/03 Thu


I liked the sets too, especially the variety of scenes.

Though I wasn't too impressed with the closeup shots in the factory with the perfectly positioned crates around Faith, Angel and The Beast - I did like that long shot with the Welcome Faith sign. Especially when she crawled up the side of the building towards it. And the lighting in the basement was wonderful, intense and stark - matched Wesleys mood perfectly.
[> Sweeps? -- Gyrus, 11:15:28 03/06/03 Thu

Maybe this episode was meant to be broadcast during February sweeps, before ME found out that ANGEL would be pre-empted during that time.
[> Re: Set Design/Locations in Salvage (some spoils) -- Valheru, 12:19:05 03/06/03 Thu

The lighting was also top-notch, as usual. The mood of each scene was enhanced by the colors of the lights. AtS has been doing a great job of that this year, unlike BtVS which seems to have abandoned the color schemes it used to use so effectively. Also unlike BtVS recently, AtS is better at conveying darkness without losing clarity--compare the "darkness" of Faith's walk through the warehouse to the pitch dark of Buffy and Spike's wanderings through the Initiative in "The Killer in Me."
Does it look like this to anyone else? (Spec, and maybe spoilers) -- JC, 06:25:03 03/06/03 Thu

I was thinking this morning that maybe what is going on in Sunnydale/LA is not the same apocalypse, but *competing* ones. What made me consider this was the symmetric nature of the two shows- FE with the ubervamp, whatever has taken Cordelia's form with the Beast. Symmetric vampires with souls-I'll get back to this thought in a couple minutes- and now each show has a Slayer.

Perhaps the "senior partners" had some sort of a falling out?

Also, maybe WR&H couldn't figure out which side the vamp with a soul would be on during the apocalypse is because there were to be two of them. I think it would follow from the nature of the word "shanshu"- meaning both life and death- that perhaps the words for "good" and "evil" are considered the same way- to have both meanings.

Usually I just lurk on the board, but I wanted some feedback on these thoughts. Thanks--JC
[> Re: Does it look like this to anyone else? (Spec, and maybe spoilers) -- Tess, 09:31:02 03/06/03 Thu

Actually it makes sense that the reason W&H couldn't figure out which side Angel would be on is because they didn't know there would be two vampires with a soul.

I think someone else might have mentioned it a few weeks ago but I almost wonder if the two teams are gearing up to be on different sides of the same fight, for a few brief minutes that is, until the teams realizes they are being played and join forces to tear the whole thing down.
[> [> Re: Does it look like this to anyone else? (Spec, and spoilers for AtS and BtVS) -- JC, 11:37:06 03/06/03 Thu

Reading some of the other posts, it occurs to me that if the First *did* show up in Lilah's form that perhaps the whole point was Wes would get Faith into the mix. It also makes sense that getting her to LA could bring her out to Sunnydale, thus getting all with Slayer power (potential or realized) into one place. Perhaps the FE was hoping that Faith would gum up evilCordy's plans just enough...introducing an element of chaos into the mix. It seems like this (LA) apocalypse has a distinct order to it--and the one in Sunnydale does not have any evident order. Like perhaps the competition is between Order and Chaos itself. Perhaps the senior partners are in fact the powers of Order and of Chaos.
Overanalyzing again -- Sophist, 09:14:43 03/06/03 Thu

I've been thinking about SMG's comments in the EW interview, and there's one that doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it does to someone else.

She said, paraphrasing, that Joss originally planned for Willow to go bad in S5, but postponed it a year because he liked W/T so much. This implies to me that the "trigger" for Willow going bad was always intended to be Tara.

I don't find this plausible. W/T had only become an official couple in NMR. If S5 had played out like S6, Tara and Willow would have been a couple for only about 12 episodes. IMO, that's not nearly long enough to make Tara's death a plausible "trigger".

The only plausible way to have Willow go bad in S5 was to use the original plan and have her stay in the relationship with Oz and have him be the "trigger". I conclude that Joss's view of W/T had nothing to do with this decision.
[> Re: Overanalyzing again -- Dochawk, 09:25:31 03/06/03 Thu

The plan was for Willow to go bad in Season 5. Seth Green leaving in the middle of the year put a wrinkle in this. Then Tara came along and Joss shelved his plan for a year. I wish they had shelved it forever. I have no idea how they would have worked this into the end of the season anyhow.
[> [> Re: Overanalyzing again -- Gyrus, 11:52:57 03/06/03 Thu

The plan was for Willow to go bad in Season 5. Seth Green leaving in the middle of the year put a wrinkle in this. Then Tara came along and Joss shelved his plan for a year...I have no idea how they would have worked this into the end of the season anyhow.

Here's a thought. You know how, in every previous season except S1, the villain we started with was not the villain we ended with? (Spike gave way to Angelus, Mr. Trick to the Mayor, and Maggie Walsh to Adam.) Maybe that was the plan for S5 as well: Glory kills (instead of brainsucking) Tara or Oz; Willow snaps and goes even darker and more powerful than she did in "Tough Love"; Willow kills Glory and sucks the hell-goddess power right out of her; and Willow becomes our Big Bad for the last few episodes.
[> [> [> Re: Overanalyzing again -- maddog, 13:04:44 03/06/03 Thu

That would have been very cool. To watch a completely dark Willow take a very unsuspecting Glory out.
[> [> [> Well that would go with Xander rumor -- s'kat, 14:49:48 03/06/03 Thu

There's unconfirmed but long-standing rumor that Xander was supposed to be the house for Glory in Season 5 not Ben.
If this were true - Willow's turn towards badness could have happened, by her sucking Glory into herself from Xander somewhere around Tough Love. Which would have been an interesting metaphor, come to think of it.

But two things happened to change this idea: 1) Oz left the show earlier than expected and Whedon liked W/T and 2) Whedon got the show picked up for more money by UPN for two more years and killing off all three of your principal characters in S5 would not have worked. (I remember Marti worrying in Season 5 that Joss would destroy all their sets and leave them with nothing to work with...Joss always joked about having the hellmouth swallow everyone in the end - a joke echoed by Marsters in a few interviews.) If this hypothesis is true...probably isn't, it makes me worry a bit about what his plans are for the end of S7. I would not put it past Whedon and Company to kill Xander, Anya, Willow and Buffy off leaving Giles, Spike, Dawn, Faith...behind.
Doubt he'll do it. But wouldn't put it past him either.
These are evil writers remember? And it's the last season, anything goes.
[> Re: Overanalyzing again -- Rahael, 09:25:39 03/06/03 Thu

This is what I thought of that comment - I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere (maybe a commentary, I think) that Willow and Tara were originally not going to be a couple, they would be subtexty, and Oz wasn't scheduled to leave that year anyway.

Obviously, plans changed - Willow and Tara had great chemistry, Oz left and Joss wanted to keep the couple around longer?
[> Re: Overanalyzing again -- aliera, 09:39:02 03/06/03 Thu

I think that means simply that he always planned for her to go bad period. The timing was extended because he liked W/T. The reason I say this is because there was a remark made last year that had she been with Oz still; it would have been Oz. I took this to mean (especially because of the way Oz left the show) that Joss might have actually had the roughed out arc in his head for some time and originally it was meant to be Oz.
[> [> Re: Overanalyzing again -- Sophist, 10:24:41 03/06/03 Thu

A quick response to Doc, Rah, and aliera:

I agree that if Oz had stayed, Willow could have gone bad in S5 using Oz's death as the trigger. As Doc says, it's not clear how they could have fit this into the Glory arc, but who knows.

I just don't see W/T as well-established enough in early S5 for the loss of Tara to have triggered the DarkWillow of S6. It takes quite a bit of time to make a relationship credible enough to justify that sort of reaction. If Tara, rather than Oz, was to be the "trigger", they needed that extra year. It wasn't because Joss liked W/T so much, but because the extra time was dramatically necessary.
[> [> [> jinx jinx double jinx... -- aliera, 10:35:10 03/06/03 Thu

...that's when Ben used to say we spoke out loud at the same time. I think shadowkat remembers this better than I do see her post below...in terms of Glory that's an interesting question. I wonder if there would have been a Glory...I'm having a difficult time stretching my brain around the idea of Willow as Glory's minion. But there was also commentary on the timing of the Glory arc at one point.

OT Did you end up going to see Chabon? on Monday with Doc?
[> [> [> [> Overanalyze? Here? Never! lol -- Slainey, 11:33:50 03/06/03 Thu

But Willow did get pretty mean and evily when Glory hurt Tara. How much worse would it have been if Tara had died then? It might have tightened up the end of season 5.

On the other hand, there was another rumor that instead of Ben the other half of Glory was going to be Xander. That might have messed Willow up a bit too.
[> [> [> [> Re: jinx jinx double jinx... -- Sophist, 13:07:28 03/06/03 Thu

I think SK's post said it best. I agree with her.

No, I didn't go. :( Too much school/soccer/work stuff.
[> OZ, Tara, and the problems of actors jumping ship -- s'kat, 10:20:37 03/06/03 Thu

Actually from the commentaries and interviews I've read:

Willow and Tara weren't supposed to be a full-fledged couple in Season 4. They had this huge OZ storyline and Veruca was supposed to be a long-term recurring character.
Unfortunately, Seth Green wanted out early due to a movie commitment and this screwed up their entire season. The original plan was that OZ would go through a crisis of sorts, Willow would turn darker and darker as a result.
They'd get back together, a la Willow/Tara in S6 and OZ would get killed - causing Willow to turn bad.

Joss planned to turn Willow bad more or less from the very beginning. It was always planned. It's just the way he did it that changed. I think Tara was originally meant to be wood sprite and Willow's magical friend who would help push her along that path, while OZ would keep her grounded.
Since OZ left, they had to scrap that whole idea.

And I think the reason he delayed Willow's turn a year was because he needed time to build the Willow/Tara relationship. Otherwise, as you state so well above, it would not have worked. Fans had to be as committed to the relationship as Willow was to believe she'd turn wonky when Tara died. They had to feel Willow's pain. If they killed Tara too soon, no one would have bought it. (I know, I know lots of people never bought it anyway...but hey, they tried. ;-) )
[> Re: Overanalyzing again (Salvage spoiler) -- Darby, 10:28:58 03/06/03 Thu

That's interesting - we also know that the longterm plan was for Buffy to die at the end of S5 - was it originally supposed to be at the hands of Willow?

Remember, too, that when Tara was brainsucked Willow did kinda sorta go bad - a bit of rearranging and it could have happened completely on the original timeframe.

Parallels current Angel, maybe - could it be that, as Angelus quickly finished off the unstoppable Beast, Dark Willow was originally supposed to make quick work of the undefeatable Glory?

I don't really see the problem, though. By the end of S5, W/T had been together about a year - enough time to traumatize Willow with her death. If Joss decided that there was more to be mined from the W/T relationship, it makes sense. Even if it did lead to the "Magic Crack" storyline.
[> [> I liked the way it worked out, in the end, thematically... -- Rob, 11:26:29 03/06/03 Thu

...because Willow's reaction to Tara being brain-sucked was a good foreshadowing of then how much worse she would be when Tara was killed a year later. That is one of the reasons I was able to buy Dark Willow. Because there was precedence for Willow going dark after Tara was harmed. And I thought, if she was like that with Tara brain-sucked, I could totally believe her going completely dark and evil if she were killed.

Rob
[> [> Re: Overanalyzing again -- Sophist, 13:17:52 03/06/03 Thu

It might have worked if Tara had died at the end of S5, but only if W/T had remained a couple until then. IOW, they couldn't have had Tara leave early in S5 because that would have left too little time for the relationship to develop. The best part is that if Tara had stayed with Willow and only died at the end of S5, we'd have been spared MagiCrack.
[> Re: Overanalyzing again -- Kenny, 16:53:48 03/06/03 Thu

My math works out a little differently from yours. Let's say Tara died in 5.19 instead of 6.19. That would mean we have eps 4.19(NMR)-6.19, or 22 episodes, one year in the Buffyverse. You can even add a few more episodes, since people not in denial saw the subtext since Hush (4.10). If that's too early for you, you could start with Faith's comment about Willow not driving stick in 4.16.

So, depending on how you look at it, you'd have a year to a year-and-a-half for their relationship. Add to it that Tara was Willow's first girlfriend, which, in some people's minds, makes the bond even stronger.

Storywise, it would make alot of sense. Glory brain-sucks Oz/Tara, who ends up dying. So the Glory story wouldn't have been the season ender. Considering how big a deal they made of Glory, it's the perfect bait-and-switch for evil Willow. And they made a huge deal of how Willow was the only one who could actually take on Glory. Instead of absorbing Giles' power, which eventually turned her good, it could have been Dawn's keyness, as they monks made her out to be a force for good that Glory was trying to use for evil purposes. And as someone else mentioned, it could have been that Willow did kill Buffy, really giving her an impetus to perform a resurrection spell on her. You've got Willow on the power trip from just defeating Glory--it seems like all the pieces were really in place for a story like that to happen. Could have been really interesting.
the first on angel ???? (spoilers) -- 110v3w1110w, 09:15:04 03/06/03 Thu

does anyone think that the whole wesly lilah scene was in weslys head or could it be the firt evil ? could be the first signs of a combined ending to both shows
[> Re: the first on angel ???? (spoilers) -- B, 10:15:07 03/06/03 Thu

I thought it was the First Evil, especially the 2nd time she appeared and seemed to be taunting him.
[> [> Agreed! -- maddog, 13:25:11 03/06/03 Thu

[> I don't think so. -- kisstara, 10:23:50 03/06/03 Thu

Sometimes an imaginary dead women is just imaginary.
[> The First Evil and the ghost of Lilah Morgan (spoilers for Salvage) -- cjl, 10:36:19 03/06/03 Thu

Now that I think about, the scenes between Wesley and "Lilah" had more layers than I thought.

Let's break it down: in the first mini-scene, Lilah rises off the slab, sidles up next to Wes, and they have a nice chat about the path of their relationship. (Note: she's dressed as she was when she died, with no jacket.) Then, when we cut back for the second mini-scene, Lilah "appears" next to Wes, wearing (I presume) her W&H blazer. The first scene, when she rises off the slab, is probably purely Wes' imagination. However, the "materialization" fits in with the FE's modus operandi. The FE may have used Wes' first little talk with Lilah as an unobtrusive means of gaining access to Wes' thoughts and having a little talk of its own.

If that was the FE talking to Wes in Scene 2, what was the purpose? If it wanted Wes to despair in the face of all the onrushing Big Evil, it didn't work. Wes came out of his chat filled with renewed energy and belief in the power of Faith and redemption. But what if that's what the First Evil WANTED?

Let's face it, the FE wasn't getting anywhere sending minions in Faith's prison yard. Faith could kick the ass of just about anybody on the inside. So the answer is simple: the FE had to get Faith on the outside. There was no better man for the job than Wes, and no better time than now. If all this is true, then the FE succeeded in bringing Faith out in the open, where evil has a free shot.
[> [> Re: The First Evil and the ghost of Lilah Morgan (spoilers for Salvage) -- abby, 10:42:50 03/06/03 Thu

WAAHHHH
title spoiler
"ghost" implies she's dead.

sorry, british viewer...it caught my eye as I made my way to archives (we're up to CWDP b7.7 here)

x
[> [> Nahhh... (spoilers for Salvage) -- Darby, 11:00:01 03/06/03 Thu

Couldn't be, unless they are very much altering the rules.

First (pardon the expression), the First isn't psychic, and so would not know that Lilah the 2nd would not be obviously a manifestation - it couldn't know about Wes' fantasy Lilah the 1st. And if it did, why change her clothes???

Second, are we to believe that Wes couldn't differentiate between an imagined Lilah and an actual visible being? This is the toughest one to rationalize.
[> [> [> Another Nahhh... -- Solitude1056, 11:07:40 03/06/03 Thu

The 'ghost' touched Wes, several times.
[> [> [> [> Make that an Aye -- Slainey, 11:24:27 03/06/03 Thu

Obviously, the First has something to do with the attempt on Faith's life since a bringer knife was used. However, if the First wanted to mess with Faith's mind all it needed was to use the image of the deputy mayor.

How does the First know anything. By watching? It knew what Kennedy called Chloe. It could easily have seen what went on between Lilah and Wes and then guessed on the rest. I like the idea that the FE wanted Faith out of jail and more in the open.
[> [> [> [> [> The First -- Darby, 12:43:17 03/06/03 Thu

It seems to gain the knowledge of people once they're dead, picks up information in its "forms," but has little ability beyond that - no way to know that Wes was "talking to himself," or to expect Wes to be anything but freaked out by a visit from Lilah.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [snooty French accent] Ho-ho, but ho ho! (spoils AtS) -- pr10n, 13:24:55 03/06/03 Thu

That's why Lilah changed clothes: Dead!Lilah #1 was Wes imagining the conversation, looking for some closure. D!L #2 was the First, with the "You failed to redeem me." and "I'm just a figment -- I must be your real thoughts." The First is a SUCH a liar.

And you're right, it couldn't know that Wes had already started a conversation with D!L -- that's where Wes should have realized that D!L #1 was his brain on grief, and D!L #2 was something entirely else.

FE just barged in with its Dapper D!L, and heaped on the manipulation, dropping the hint about not giving up "no matter how far he... or she has fallen" -- AFTER we'd been introduced to Faith and the exposition that no power in the 'verse, er, 'tentiary could stop her.

That's when cjl's point made sense to me -- the First needs Faith out here, to whack her with mighty evil forces unavailable to the encarcerated.

Supporting Tidbits: How pissed was Cordy that Wes had introduced Faith to the mix? Way pissed -- like Evil realizing that the slowly sneaking pawn has just turned into a queen. Not that FE and Cordelius are pals, but hey they see each other around, at the defenstrations and ritual killings and stuff. Also, after D!L #2 appears to Wes, the camera cuts up and away, to show that no one is really there with him. It feels just like a Spike-in-Basement moment.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's the way it seems, but -- tomfool, 15:18:45 03/06/03 Thu

When watching it the second time, it seemed to play out exactly as you've laid it out, except that Lilah #2 also clearly touched Wes (as pointed out by Sol). If the rules of incorporality are to be believed, then Lilah #2 was also a construct of Wes's brain on grief. Or possibly something completely different than Lilah #1 and FE. I'm confused, because it would all make so much sense if L#2 were the FE as you've described.
[> [> Re: The First Evil was the ghost of Lilah Morgan! (spoilers for Salvage) -- Vegeta, 11:25:07 03/06/03 Thu

I agree exactly with what you're thinking. The knife the prisoner used to attack Faith was really the key I think. That was definetly a harbringer's weapon. FE definetly had it's hands in this and Lilah was the dead vehicle!
A VERY interesting thought...(AtS thru 'Salvage') -- deeva, 10:30:47 03/06/03 Thu

As my fellow Joss fans gathered around the water cooler/fax machines (we were not partaking of any water, but it was nearby, and some of us were faxing documents). One person made an intriguing comment that I hadn't thought of and due to me being not-so-much-here-on-the-board anymore, threw me for a loop. And I apologize if this has been postulated/suggested before, I refer to my previous sentence. She said "I think that Angel has never left the building. Angel is merely playing Angelus."

My immediate thought was then Wo-Ping, the shaman, had to be in on it. That the vessel was not filled with Angel's soul. That's how Lorne was fooled by "Angelus". This was a heavy thought for me first thing the morning.
[> I odn't know if I believe...(spec through 'Salvage') -- Rob, 11:19:37 03/06/03 Thu

...that Angel was always there the whole time, but there is the possibility that he has been since the soul-restorage spell that seemed to not work.

Rob
[> [> But... -- deeva, 11:36:57 03/06/03 Thu

why would fake Cordy restore his soul? If she is indeed an evil being, why would she do that? Wouldn't having Angelus stay put be a good thing for Team Its-Another-Apocalypse-and-This-Time-it's-