March 2004 posts

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Buffy and Sex in the City connection? Slightly OT -- Cheryl, 15:24:16 03/14/04 Sun

I'm watching the Season 4 DVDs for Sex and the City and just watched an episode where Big is dating a movie star named Willow Summers. So I'm thinking there must be some connection - does anyone know what it is? Thanks!


[> You do know that Sarah Michelle Gellar made a guest appearance as herself in an episode? -- Majin Gojira, 17:59:48 03/14/04 Sun

[> [> No, didn't know that -- Cheryl, 19:03:32 03/14/04 Sun

I'm catching up with DVDs. What season was that?

[> [> [> Season 3, Episode 13 -- Majin Gojira, 05:09:00 03/15/04 Mon

The Episode Entitled "Escape from New York"

She plays a girl named "Debbie" in it, not herself. My bad.

And let's all thank IMDB for having such information at hand.

[> [> [> [> Thanks -- Cheryl, 07:10:59 03/15/04 Mon

I'll have to rent that season this weekend. Obviously, I'm not watching in order. ;-)

[> [> [> [> Plus, one ep had a character named "Xandrella" -- Kansas, 14:47:50 03/16/04 Tue

Obviously the femine form of Xander. *g* (I didn't know about the Willow Summers thing 'til now... obviously there was at least one Buffy fan on the writing staff. Which is as it should be.)

OT/Wonderfalls -- darkonian, 01:00:27 03/15/04 Mon

hi, completely OT but does anyone know where i can go to download wonderfalls episodes?
been looking for "wax lion" for a while.
it's just not happening.


[> Re: OT/Wonderfalls -- aka ms k, 19:52:30 03/15/04 Mon

If you use BitTorrent the url at the bottom works well and they have a whole number of recent shows (including Wonderfalls).

[> [> thanks! -- darkonian, 21:15:46 03/15/04 Mon

UK Band Come Out in Support of Angel -- Kenton Hall, 06:29:45 03/20/04 Sat

Hey, I'm Kenton from the band ist, and I wanted to assure you that we are doing this because we want to help save Angel and this was what we have to give. I do understand your cynical, jaded approach, however. I'd feel the same way. But we certainly aren't making any money out of this. All the charity money is coming out of the band's earnings... which is why we decided to do it that way... to assure people that we weren't making off the back of Angel.

We're open to any suggestions as to what else we can do. The free concert sounds like a good idea... where's the rooftop nearest SkyNet?


Any questions or worries about what we're doing, email me direct at

P.S. I am the biggest Buffy/Angel fan imaginable. Quiz me if you don't believe me. Anyway, whatever works to get a sixth season of Angel, I'll do it.


[> Re: UK Band Come Out in Support of Angel -- Kenton Hall, 06:30:58 03/20/04 Sat


Continuing the overwhelming and unprecedented show of fan support for the show 'Angel', whose cancellation was announced by the WB network on the 13th February, the band 'ist', based in the United Kingdom have added their voices to the outcry over the network's decision.

The band, who formed three years ago, are all long-time fans of the Joss Whedon/David Greenwalt created show, as well as other Whedon projects such as 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and 'Firefly' but, in their eyes, the issue is bigger than just the one show.

"Shows of the quality of 'Angel'," said Kenton Hall, one of the band's two singer/songwriters, "are few and far between. For it to be cancelled is a slap in the face of anyone who wishes for more quality programming and less of television's favourite arena: the lowest-common denominator. Joss Whedon and his team have their own vision and, for better or for worse, they stick to it. That should be rewarded, not punished."

Jack Bomb, lead guitarist, vocalist and songwriter, agrees: "People like Whedon and shows like 'Angel' should be an inspiration to every artist, in whatever field they work. Elvis Costello, for instance, or Tom Waits would be his musical equivalent. It's all about the work. And that kind of dedication breeds dedicated fans, as the Save Angel campaigns show."

"We aspire to producing music that provokes that level of response," Hall adds, "So it is only right that we stand up on the behalf of people who have already proved that art and popularity need not be mutually exclusive concepts."

Detroit Robbins is ist's bass player and, as a talented filmmaker in his own right, is set to direct the band's first video, for forthcoming single 'Similarly Inclined', co-written with Kenton Hall. He is full of praise for Joss Whedon.

"He knows how to push emotional buttons without leaving you feeling manipulated or cheated. That is an enormous skill. Angel is not a genre show. The supernatural element is simply backdrop. These are simply great stories, told with wit, humour and fantastic drama. We need shows like 'Angel' on TV or we might as well throw our sets away en masse."

Drummer Flash is more succinct: "I love Buffy and Angel. Great Television is thin on the ground. But then so is Great Music - at least how we define it, which is great songs, played with passion. Angel and ist are on the same path. We have to support each other."

'ist' have recently released their debut album Freudian Corduroy, described as "11 1/2 songs about sex, sadness and emotional subterfuge'.

As part of their drive to help save Angel, ist will donating $5.00 from every copy of Freudian Corduroy sold between March and August 2004 to a series of charities supported by key members of the Buffy and Angel casts and crews, including the Make-A-Wish Foundation, the Stuttering Foundation and Camp Hale. They will also be donating proceeds from their 3rd anniversary gig (and 1st official SAVE ANGEL gig) being held at The Musician, Clyde Street, Leicester, UK.

For further information, please contact or

[> [> Re: UK Band Come Out in Support of Angel -- Cheryl, 07:14:20 03/20/04 Sat

"Shows of the quality of 'Angel'," said Kenton Hall, one of the band's two singer/songwriters, "are few and far between. For it to be cancelled is a slap in the face of anyone who wishes for more quality programming and less of television's favourite arena: the lowest-common denominator. Joss Whedon and his team have their own vision and, for better or for worse, they stick to it. That should be rewarded, not punished."

Well said! All of the quotes were wonderful. Can I use some of this for the postcards I'm sending out? Good luck and please keep us posted.

[> Re: UK Band Come Out in Support of Angel -- angel's nibblet, 15:01:33 03/21/04 Sun

Yay! That is fantastic! Any effort to help save our beloved show is appreciated :-D

Shall mosey over to your site if you don't mind...

Can't believe the news.... -- Purple Tulip, 12:57:47 03/15/04 Mon

Hi all! I have been away for some time now and haven't been able to discuss the Angel cancellation here yet. I was so stunned and upset when I heard about the cancellation. I mean, first Buffy ends, and then Angel, the only Joss Whedon show still on the air, gets the ax?! Something is amiss in the universe. But I am glad to hear that so many people are outraged and that talks are being held with the bigwigs. I mean, are they completely insane to cancel a show as incredible as this one, that obviously has a huge fanbase abd following?! I am really hoping for some kind of rebirth for one of the best shows on television.

And I have to add, that I am currently interning at the local FOX/WB station here, and when I came for an interview, the first thing I saw was a huge cutout of David Boreanaz as Angel standing just inside the hallway, (as well as posters and cutouts from any WB show imaginable, icluding many more of the Angel cast, plastering every hallway and cubicle), and I new that this was the place for me. And I have to say that people who work here are as stunned and dissapointed as I am. So employees of WB affiliates are as angry with the WB powers that be as the rest of you are. Lets hope for some good news.

The first episode of "Wonderfalls" is rerunning Thursday night at 9 pm eastern time on FOX! -- Rob (cheerleadery...and informative!), 21:18:24 03/15/04 Mon


[> Sadly, it is on opposite the opening rounds of the NCAA Tournament -- Dlgood, 21:49:14 03/15/04 Mon

[> [> Happily, all my colleges failed to make the tournament! -- CW, 04:51:41 03/16/04 Tue

Did I say that? Hope your Terrapins do well. ;o)

[> Btw, even if you've already seen it, WATCH if you have a ratings box... -- Rob, 07:50:00 03/16/04 Tue

Due to its low ratings on Friday, FOX is reportedly going to reconsider moving it to another night, pairing it with Tru on Thursdays regularly, perhaps, if the ratings increase for this night.


[> [> I certainly hope so -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:46:43 03/16/04 Tue

I've heard so many good things about it, but am, nine times out of ten, busy on Friday nights.

[> [> [> Re: But moving it to Thursday night after Tru Calling -- Brian, 09:55:22 03/16/04 Tue

puts it up against CSI, and that can only be a ratings disaster!

[> [> [> [> I don't think this is a move, but a rerun of the pilot episode -- Vickie, 13:26:18 03/16/04 Tue

I think the show still broadcasts its first run episodes on Friday at nine. Right after Joan of Arcadia, and opposite nothing much on my play list.

[> [> [> [> [> It is only a rerun, but the execs are looking at the ratings, to see if it improves... -- Rob, 13:41:30 03/16/04 Tue

...and consider moving it.


[> [> [> [> Not if it recieves one of the benefits of being a FOX show -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:14:36 03/16/04 Tue

They don't seem to operate on quite the same seasonal schedule as some other major channels. Many times I've noticed that FOX shows are still running new episodes when other shows have briefly gone into reruns. As such, "Wonderfalls" being in the same timeslot as a popular show doesn't necessarily sound the death knell (especially considering the two shows, from what I've heard, are nothing alike and likely to benefit as much as possible from a demographic split).

[> Thanks, Rob--got the VCR all prepped! -- Old One, 09:04:31 03/16/04 Tue

[> Re: Cool! Hope it's not pre-empted by High School Tourney's -- Vegeta, 11:07:06 03/16/04 Tue

I live in the Minneapolis area and "Wonderfalls" was pre-empted on Friday til 12:30 am for High School Hockey Tourney's.

Hopefully they won't be televising anything like that on Thursday... fingers crossed.

[> [> Re: Pre-Empted again for High School Girl's Basketball, Darn! -- Vegeta, 10:59:24 03/18/04 Thu

[> hey guys. only a lurker on this board...but wanted to get the word out that... -- gretch, 05:47:27 03/17/04 Wed

...i did up a little forum for "wonderfalls" discussion...


i hope tim's show sticks around. i adore it and would love to have something smart on tv to talk about.

take care

[> [> Thanks gretch! It's so pretty! -- Pony, 06:41:45 03/17/04 Wed

O/T -- Rob! Avenue Q? -- Rochefort, 21:50:36 03/15/04 Mon


[> Just saw it recently...GREAT, GREAT, GREAT, GREAT Show!! -- Rob, 07:53:20 03/16/04 Tue

If you haven't already, you MUST get the CD. Some of the funniest songs ever for any Broadway show: It Sucks to Be Me, Everyone's a Little Bit Racist, The Internet is for Porn, My Girlfriend Who Lives in Canada, You Can Be Loud as the Hell You Want (When You're Making Love)...and did I mention almost the entire cast are puppets? ;o)


[> [> Despite my personal puppet issues (see Jan. 2004 archives), I'm dying to see this show. -- cjl, 11:55:09 03/16/04 Tue

[> [> [> I have the c.d. and.... -- Rochefort, 15:15:21 03/17/04 Wed

It's absolutely fabulous. The director of Bat Boy lent it to me because he's dreaming of putting it on when the rights are released and he wants to borrow my ability to impersonate muppets. :) The c.d. is witty and the songs are soooooooooo catchy that it's insane and plus...


despite it's many dark edges, it's STILL less misanthropic than Little Shop. ;)


[> [> [> [> Re: I have the c.d. and.... -- Rob, 16:21:40 03/17/04 Wed


despite it's many dark edges, it's STILL less misanthropic than Little Shop. ;)

Heh, well even I would agree with that, because Avenue Q is really not misanthropic at all. Even though at points all characters are down and out, the show constantly reaffirms the characters' hope, even at their darkest times. The show has a much softer heart than its own edgy facade. Btw, the entire audience cheered, and stopped the finale for almost half a minute on the "George Bush is only for now" line. ;-)


[> [> [> [> [> YAY! (Gives Rob a big hug!) -- Rochefort, 22:17:29 03/17/04 Wed

Rob when I heard the c.d. that's just what I hoped and ENVISIONED would happen in the real show! What great news! Avenue Q goers ROCK!

NB & "Celeste" (Spoilers) -- Darby, 06:04:02 03/16/04 Tue

Watched one of the umpteen reruns of ABC Family's Celeste in the City, and for those of you who watched it but didn't want to start a thread...I understand.

But I like the ABC-F light comedy series. They get mostly capable actors, directors who don't settle for a single note, writers with some grasp of formula - and more importantly, the mandate to tweak it - and composers who mostly should be shoved onto an ice flow. Hey, you can't have everything.

As with several of these movies (Charisma's comes to mind), this month's version starts off slowly. They so often look like they've run out of decent writers at first, I'm beginning to think that their formula is to start cheesy and get brighter as they go along - gee, could ABC Family not trust their audience completely?

The lead, Majandra Delfino (isn't that the best friend's name on Wonderfalls? how odd is that?), comes off early on as a pale shadow of Molly Ringwald (no more contemporary comparisons come to mind), but she does get better as the material improves through the piece. The love interest (Ethan Embry from Can't Hardly Wait) is obviously a stock mistaken-for-gay character right from the start, but it's made so obvious to us that we can just wait for that shoe to drop (as we know it will, it's just a question of how long they'll belabor it. They know what they're doing - his "coming out" is playful with the idea that they KNOW we're getting annoyed). There's NYC apartment humor, dog-eat-dog work in the big city, Hick Girl Goes to Town, all early on, lots of stock building blocks.

Then, enter Cousin Dana, Nicholas Brendon. With his two gay pals - and, um, Debbie Gibson? - he sees Celeste as a makeover opportunity (we all want to be on reality tv, baby!).

This is where it gets interesting. NB's Dana is flouncy and bouncy, with gestures to shoo bees, but early on, alone with Celeste, he gets the chance to tell her (and us) that he played a part with his family and he's still playing a part, and from then on it's fascinating to watch his outward "gayness" vary according to audience and situation. This is a very well thought-out performance. His buds (except for DG, who is, interestingly enough, never explained) are stereotypes but not terribly annoying ones. We only see them in their little clique, so maybe as characters they're all playing parts.

The boss is a cad, but the reveal is far enough into the movie that we aren't sure which way he's going by the time he goes. And he's a good movie cad, smarmy without playing it smarmy, although the "other woman" is (again, typical for these movies) so cliched that they could have replaced her with a cut-out.

This is a movie for folks who are very familiar with the stock stuff and looking for subtle twists, and it's full of likeable characters and is a gentle, fun movie. And the makeover - gotta admit, I loved those outfits! Well, most of them. There's nothing wrong with that, right-?

It ain't Buffy, but what is these days?


[> Re: NB & "Celeste" (Spoilers) -- monsieurxander, 11:42:51 03/16/04 Tue

Perhaps it's my inner dork, but I liked her way better before the makeover.

And as is the case with so much of the media, the gay-automatically-equals-extreme-femininity-and-always-travel-in-packs-and-have-innate-knowlege-of-fashion formula is used. Again. Yawn. But, as you stated, it ain't Buffy, so I guess I should lower my expectations. It was surprising, though, that they got the use of the word "bottom" past the censors on a "family" channel. I just wish TV would get a "normal guy" gay character, not one of these cut-outs. That's someone I could relate to.

Other than my quibbles, it was an okay piece of fluff. I initially watched it because I was bored and then felt kind of guilty because I was actually enjoying it. ;-)

[> I'll have to give it another go, then. -- Cheryl, 19:49:15 03/16/04 Tue

I watched the first hour or so but it wasn't grabbing me like the movies with Charimsa and Emma had so I stopped watching. I've liked the other Family Channel romance movies, too, so now with these stamps of approval, I'll give Celeste another chance. ;-)

[> I wish I could have seen it -- Pony, 08:00:18 03/17/04 Wed

Great review! I was actually flipping around trying to find it Sunday night but the cable up here wasn't carrying it. Here's hoping that NB gets a decent sitcom next year.

"Damage" Question -- Claudia, 07:15:29 03/16/04 Tue

Why were Angel and Wesley so determined to keep Dana in their custody? Even after Andrew had revealed the group of Slayers that accompanied him, the other two continued to insist that Dana would remain in their custody. Why?


[> Re: "Damage" Question -- Corwin of Amber, 07:56:51 03/16/04 Tue

The answer is obvious, unless you're looking for sinister motives on Angel and Wes's part. W&H's medical facilties were already standing by, she could get a full checkup, be sedated and then delivered to the Watchers.

If you ARE looking for sinister motives, they had an underground cloning and brainwashing facility set up to breed their own Slayer army. Why not go all out?

[> [> Sinister Motives? -- Claudia, 09:00:40 03/16/04 Tue

"If you ARE looking for sinister motives, they had an underground cloning and brainwashing facility set up to breed their own Slayer army. Why not go all out?"

How in the hell did you come to this conclusion? Why is it that everyone time I ask a simple question, I get dumb-ass answers like this? On the other ANGEL forum, I actually received intelligent answers.

[> [> [> Sigh -- LittleBit, 12:10:13 03/16/04 Tue

Okay. I'm probably going to regret answering this but you did ask.

I don't know how they do things on "other" forums. I really don't go to other forums. I do know that on this forum we treat with respect those who treat us with respect. Part of that is following the rules of the forum. There has even been a recent post from one of the moderators (in case you did not know, the board moderators are Masquerade and d'Herblay) requesting that people please refrain from polynymity (using multiple posting names) unless the alternate names are listed on the Alterno-Names Page on the Existential Scoobies site. You do not show us this respect. No, I'm not calling on any 'special insider' knowledge in order to say this. Not too long ago a thread was started by LadyLavinia. In response to a reply, a poster was directed to what that responder had said in her original post, with the quote included. Only the responder who was quoting herself as LadyLavinia was Claudia. It doesn't take much to make the connection that Claudia=LadyLavinia. There is a thread in the current archives in which LadyLavinia and Claudia each post three times. You have a very distinctive style of posting. So much so that another poster asked if you were posting under a different name. You never replied. Perhaps you felt it beneath you to do so, but really, it doesn't take much to say "No. That isn't me." Or to recognize that this is in violation of the board Netiquette and refrain from continuing the practice. Neither of these actions have occurred.

Secondly, this is a discussion board. After a while, when one person (in whatever guise) continually posts what could be considered a fairly challenging question without ever offering an initial opinion upon which others may base a reply, and then once a reply is given, still declines to participate in a dialogue giving instead either a rephrasing of the same question, or a followup question, again with nothing else, people will eventually get aggravated. In the long run here, and you have been posting on this board for a while now, this begins to feel like a short answer essay test in which we try to guess what you're thinking in order to give you an answer that is following the track you were on when you asked it. Most of us really don't feel the need to continue to give thoughtful answers only to get another question that only says (explicitly or implicitly) "not good enough, it doesn't agree with my viewpoint, try again." If you find yourself at a loss for examples of this, perhaps it would help to do a quick review of your participation in threads about Wes and Fred, in which many other posters gave varied but thoughtful opinions on that relationship and its effect on the characters, only to be repeatedly challenged with variations of "But don't you really think Fred only got interested in Wes because he pumped NINE BULLETS into RogerBot?" Enough of this and yes, you will find that people may give you their thoughts (or not) and in some cases, you'll get a reply that outstrips whatever underlying motive you may have in mind by stating a possibility so absurd it's laughable. I know that I di it myself recently. I gave you my honest answer to the about the use of similar plot devices, and followed with a reply to my post from my evil alter ego suggesting conspiracy. (LittleBite is cantankerous and not one to try to be polite, even to me). If you found that offensive, I can understand why.

Ulitmately, if you engage in discussion, offering your thoughts for people to respond to then perhaps you'll find people who respond in kind. If you ask leading questions, and then don't like the reply you get, perhaps that should be telling you something. It's a rare person who will continue to do the thinking to answer someone else's question only to have another question posed challenging that reply.

Just my opinion on why you may be getting these "dumb ass" replies. For my own part, with the exception of my lapse as 'Bite, if I reply I do so with a civil answer. And yes, even though the content of this post may not be to your liking, it is still civil, polite, and it answers your question from my point of view. I am also going to request that if this view coincides with that of other posters that they let this post state it for them. If, however, others disagree please, post that opinion.

Your view may be different.

[> [> [> [> A - Freakin - Men!! -- Seven, 12:45:49 03/16/04 Tue

Thank you LittleBit, this needed to be said.

[> [> [> [> Whole-hearted agreement -- Nino, 14:55:20 03/16/04 Tue

The multiple name issue went on far to long without being addressed by the party in question. What's more, when people give thoughtful, well-researched replies, (like the proof for why Wes is NOT a sociopath) to claudia's posts (as Bit pointed out) she often shuts them down with little reason, making it seem silly to even bother with her posts.

And the big one that you did not mention Bit...the complete lack of respect in terms of labeling spoilers. I was made aware of the entire Fred/Illyria plotline because of an unlabled post, and I am sure I am not the only one. To add insult to injury, after we called Claudia on this several times, she labled a post with ridiculous spoiler warnings, mocking our requests. Like bit said, and as I have said in the past on this same issue, you get respect when you give it.

[> [> [> [> Thank you so much Little Bit! -- DorianQ, 15:24:14 03/16/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> Thank. You. Bit! -- Rob (starting one of those dramatic slow-build claps), 18:09:26 03/16/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> ...continuing said clap... -- Nino, 19:13:07 03/16/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> What you said, Bit. And thanks for saying it. -- Jane, 18:20:03 03/16/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> ....wishes she had something to add besides "thank you"! -- angel's nibblet *hugs Bit*, 21:45:29 03/16/04 Tue

[> [> [> Re: Sinister Motives? -- LadyStarlight, 17:01:34 03/16/04 Tue

Corwin of Amber's response was pretty much in the posting style we are accustomed to on this board. Serious, with a bunch of funny, too.

There was nothing dumb-ass about it, especially the first part, which was completely in tune with what we've seen on A:tS so far.

As for the second part -- perhaps that's why Giles et al are so vehemently opposed to offering Angel any help at all. Vicious rumours spread by disaffected clients, perhaps?

[> [> [> [> Re: Sinister Motives? -- Corwin of Amber, 18:11:07 03/16/04 Tue

The last half of my reply to Claudia was equal parts sarcasm and humor. But given that The Initiative has already tried to stitch together a demon/human/machine hybrid, it really isn't that farfetched. Plus, consider the cyberninjas from earlier this season. It's clearly not out of the realm of possibility that it could happen in the Buffyverse.

[> [> [> [> Angel's Soul Forum -- Claudia, 15:46:06 03/18/04 Thu

"Corwin of Amber's response was pretty much in the posting style we are accustomed to on this board. Serious, with a bunch of funny, too.

There was nothing dumb-ass about it, especially the first part, which was completely in tune with what we've seen on A:tS so far."

Really? You should read some of the responses I have read on the "Angel's Soul" forum from the same question. They were actually intelligent. And not insulting.

[> [> [> [> [> Probably because this thread quickly changed course -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:25:00 03/18/04 Thu

Had Corwin's post gone unreplied to, you probably would have recieved more responses of the kind you were hoping for. However, a sub-topic got started and everyone sort of lost sight of the original post.

In defense of Corwin, I did find it difficult to tell what tone you were asking the question in. Were you just generally confused or curious, were you upset over the writing of that scene (believing it to be out of character), or were you simply using it as a lead in to stating your own opinion? Sometimes motive unclarity does have to be adressed,

[> [> [> [> [> Some advice -- Lunasea, 05:59:14 03/19/04 Fri

Just a few friendly (at least that is the spirit they are meant in) pieces of advice. I give them with the background that last year around this time, many people did (and still do) consider me a troll or at least my behavior trollish.

1. people at this board don't take too well to being told what we should do. "You should read some of the responses I have read on the "Angel's Soul" forum from the same question." Why? Because you want us to? Because you want us to treat you differently? If you want to be treated differently, several people (including the patient, kind and courteous LittleBit) have tried to help you in that regard. You have either ignored their attempts or met them with outright hostility. I'm not going to tell you what you should do, but I am going to tell you if you want to be received a certain way, you will have to change. You have the right to continue your posting style which comes off as beligerant, but you don't have the right to expect us to react to it how you want us to.

2. Many of us don't post at any other board because we like the environment here. We like how deep the discussions go and until recently there wasn't a board out there that came close to the overall intelligence demonstrated here. There are posters here that are on several boards and cross-post things. However, it is the mix of posters here combined with the concentration on philosophy that make this place special. Many of us can't put up with the boards that are more interested in David Boreanaz new hair cut or trashing some character than the overall arcs and metaphors used. If you are so happy over at another board, I suggest you stay there and don't waste your time in a place that isn't reacting the way you want. To ask the entire board to change is more than a bit unreasonable. If you aren't willing to change, I would stay somewhere that you enjoy more. This isn't the first time you have mentioned another board. Different boards fit with different people. That is why there are so many of them.

3. People don't just post questions here and expect others to do the brain-work for them. We ask questions in order to write more complex essays. We incorporate those answers into a greater work that gives something back to the board. If you are attempting the Socratic Method, I suggest you learn a bit more about it. There are people here that are experts at it and your attempts are rather transparent. The Socratic Method doesn't work well when it is rather transparent unless the audience is receptive to this. I can tell you this audience isn't receptive unless it is done exceedingly well.

To sum things up, I found interacting with the members of this board worth the work of changing how I post. You may or may not feel the same way. Just because something works "on another board" doesn't mean it is going to work here. If the boards were all the same, there would only be one. You can keep posting in the style you have been, but don't be surprised when the policy that people start adopting is "don't feed the troll" and you get ignored more and more. Several people have attempted to help you and since you don't want that help, don't expect others to continue to try.

[> Re: "Damage" Question -- Ames, 08:20:28 03/16/04 Tue

Reprise Buffy/Angel argument from Sanctuary.

[> [> Thank You, Ames -- Claudia, 09:04:01 03/16/04 Tue

Thanks for the answer, Ames. I'll check the manuscript for that particular episode.

Pics of the billboard trucks roaming L.A.!! -- Masq, 13:44:34 03/16/04 Tue


An open letter from Tim Minear to genre fans, posted at Angel's Soul, linked to by whedonesque -- Rob, 15:53:29 03/16/04 Tue

Date Posted: 18:17:50 03/16/04 Tue
Author: Tim Minear
Author Host/IP: /
Subject: My open letter

An open letter to the Grass Roots from Tim Minear, Executive Producer of ìWonderfallsî:

Hi. My name is Tim Minear and I write television. Usually. Right now I guess Iím writing SPAM. But Iím not asking you to donate to some shady or even worthy cause. Iím not offering to enlarge any of your body parts (though I havenít ruled it out), and I make no claims of miraculous cures for exotic diseases. What I can offer you is sixty minutes (really about forty five, minus commercials) of quality entertainment if you do one thing: turn on your TV to Fox this Friday night at nine.

For the last year or so Iíve been working with a bunch of really talented people to make a new show for Fox called ìWonderfalls.î Weíve made 13 episodes so far, and I really want you to see them.
Some of the folks at the network are telling me that ìWonderfallsî is the best reviewed new series theyíve had in ages -- maybe ever. Iím currently sitting on a stack of raves from all over the country, from major magazines, newspapers, small dailies, internet sites, etc. They seem to be doing me no good. Also, uncomfortable because of the sitting.

The big brains at the network, while happy with the reviews, tell me that good reviews donít bring in an audience. Guess they were right. We premiered on Friday, March 12th to less than great numbers.

There are several things stacking the odds against us. Our time slot, charmingly known as ìThe Fox Friday Death Slotî is quickly living up to its name. There has been much confusion and differing opinion over just how to promote this odd little series. Maybe the unique charm, heart and volcanic snark arenít coming through. I dunno. Fact is, I have no power over network promotion, I canít force Fox to air ìWonderfallsî on Monday nights, I donít have a Nielsen box or know anyone who does.

But I do have this keyboard, my cable-modem and a relationship with genre fans all over the world because of the internet. All of the shows Iíve worked on in the last several years have had loyal internet followings. From ìLois and Clarkî to ìThe X-Files,î from ìAngelî to the short-lived but much-loved ìFirefly.î Ever since Iíve been associated with genre television Iíve had the extreme honor and pleasure (and sometimes hair-pulling madness) of interacting with fans of these shows via the internet. You are the most dedicated, passionate and, frankly, smartest fans around.

And Iím turning to you now because I believe youíre a huge untapped resource.

I know that every one of you is connected to many others that I canít reach. If you can give a hand here, you might be keeping us afloat long enough for us to catch the tide. Worth a shot, anyway.

I know the network wants this show to work. Theyíre willing for it to work. And if thereís any way that my plea now will help Fridayís numbers tick up just a touch, I think that would be a tremendous sign to them.

The next new episode of ìWonderfallsî airs Friday, March 19th at 9:00pm on Fox. Please tune in and mention it to someone else. Preferably someone with a Nielsen box.

So anyway, I thought Iíd mention it. Oh, also, the network is going to repeat our pilot on Thursday, March 18th at 9:00pm after ìTru Calling.î So if you missed it last Friday, hereís your chance to catch it.

Thanks --


Tim Minear

PS - I know the conventional wisdom says that good reviews donít mean anything to potential viewers, but hereís a taste of them anyway:

TV GUIDE (3/13-19), Matt Roush
ìIronic and romantic, WONDERFALLS is a true original. Surrender to its charms.î

PEOPLE (3/22), Terry Kelleher
ìThe reason to watch WONDERFALLS is Dhavernas. With a star like this, a series doesnít really need a gimmick.î


"A-" ì...a revelation - a blessing, even.... Each of the four episodes Iíve seen is better than the one preceding it.î

USA TODAY (3/12), Robert Bianco
"WONDERFALLS is such an unexpected treatî

LOS ANGELES TIMES (3/12), Robert Lloyd
ìWONDERFALLS is so well done, so fresh and unpredictable, and so little in thrall to conventional virtues as to make the weary reviewer prostrate with joy... everything clicks hereî

NEW YORK TIMES (3/12), Virginia Hefferman
ìBeautifully shot and written with wit... Dhavernas is delightful.î

NEWSDAY (3/12), Noel Holston
ìthe best pilot of the 2003-2004 season... Dhavernas is a find, a marvelously understated comic actress and her supporting cast is impeccableî

CHICAGO TRIBUNE (3/12), Steve Johnson
ìthe series looks and feels like nothing else on television... it all remains, almost magically, in balance, a delicate, roadside-attraction wonderland where mysteries of the cosmos, lowbrow popular culture, family dysfunction, longing and, mostly humor can coexist.î

ìunquestionably the best new drama series of the 2003-04 season... this is your time to love TVî

WASHINGTON POST (3/12), Tom Shales
ìWONDERFALLS is wonderful... a prime example of risk-taking originality, a brassy blast of fresh air any way you look at it.î

BOSTON HERALD (3/12), Amy Amatangelo
ìExecutive producers Todd Holland, Tim Minear and Bryan Fuller have created a show unlike any other on television.î

THE GLOBE AND MAIL (3/12), John Doyle
îWONDERFALLS is the best new drama in ages... Caroline Dhavernas is impeccableî

US WEEKLY ñ John Griffiths
ìThe writing is deliriously clever, the plots strangely Zen and uplifting, and Dhavernas is beyond winning as the loser-stamped Jaye. A fun, wild free fall."

POPGURLS - Allyson A Popgurl
"...get together with some friends, order in some Chinese, watch Wonderfalls at 9pm on FOX this Friday, and then go out to your favorite dive bar and snark with each other. Make it a regular Friday thing. You'll be happier for it."


[> Re: An open letter from Tim Minear to genre fans, posted at Angel's Soul, linked to by whedonesque -- angel's nibblet, 21:33:21 03/16/04 Tue

I wish I were there to see it *sniffle*

Gotta love the blantant self-promotion ;-)! Nothin' wrong with that...

[> Oh how I wish I had a Nielsen Box!! -- Belladonna, 12:27:16 03/18/04 Thu

I'll definitely watch, and tell others, but it won't make a difference. I don't have a nielsen box, and don't know a single person who does. I hate the ratings system!! :(

[> [> Actually, if anything, the Nielsen system probably helps us cult tv fans -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:30:13 03/18/04 Thu

A lot of people may not choose to be Nielsen viewers because they simply don't want to go through the trouble. Meanwhile, a cult tv fan will realise that his or her favorite show is continually in danger of cancellation, and will want to do whatever it takes to save it. As such, people who like "Wonderfalls" or "Angel" are probably more likely to accept the offer of a Nielsen box (or filling out the form).

[> [> [> Man, I would do ANYTHING to get a ratings box! -- Rob, 17:06:59 03/18/04 Thu

[> [> [> [> I was sent one of those little diaries once and I threw it away! -- aka ms k, 14:28:55 03/19/04 Fri

I had just gotten cable for the first time in my life and barely watched it. The only "cult" show I watched was Farscape and who knew that was in trouble?

btw, do people who have the little box know they have it or is it just attached to their cable line without their knowledge?

Just for fun: I'm having a problem with my motivation here....(very minor spoiler for AtS 5.16) -- Pip, 18:19:20 03/16/04 Tue

You may not be aware of it, but that well known actor's phrase of 'I'm having a problem with my motivation here' is usually a polite way of saying 'there's a script problem'.

Here are some I thought up for AtS. Anyone like to add some?

Guest Star: 'So in my first scene I pick up my three year old child, kiss them, and lovingly bandage their skinned knee, and in my second I'm sacrificing them to the demon GnhOcXywr!z. Is my script missing a couple of pages?'

Alexis Denisov: 'I have three solid pages of very boring exposition here. Can't I just say 'Bloody big demon, everyone grab an axe and let's kill it?'

J August Richards: 'I've been sleeping with Spike since he recorporealised? Nobody told me.'

James Marsters: 'Um, I don't really see Spike as someone who goes to quilting parties?'

Amy Acker: 'Electric blue spandex?'

Andy Hallett: 'Uh, I don't really have a problem. Just wanted to remind you that I'm around. If you'd like to, you know, put me in a scene or two?'

David Boreanaz: ' I've got as far as page 168 in Teach Yourself Acting but I think that the direction to display a mix of fear, delight, trepidation and existential angst is still slightly outside my range ...'

Anyone: 'Sir Anthony Hopkins couldn't make this pile of c**p sound believable.'


[> Re: Just for fun: I'm having a problem with my motivation here....(very minor spoiler for AtS 5.16) -- fresne, 10:45:34 03/17/04 Wed

Amy Acker: ìWell, if Alexis just gets to say that, I want to skip the four pages of pseudo science in the third scene. How exactly do you pronounce,î she points.

Alexis Denisov: ìIíve got this great idea where Willow shows up and then spends every scene with Wesley. Then Fred becomes jealous and they have a catfight. What? Why are you looking at me like that?î

James Marsters: ìOkay, like, you know where I said I didnít mind nude scenes, ummmÖî

David Boreanaz: ìSo, the ultimate evil is the Pink Power Ranger? Huh!î

Anyone: ìIím a what kind of demon?î

Captain Jack: ìI am the pirate king.î
J August Richards: ìNo, really, he is.î

A psychological difference between vampires and humans -- Ames, 08:10:37 03/17/04 Wed

Have you ever noticed that among the hundreds (or thousands?) of vamps we've seen killed on BtVS and AtS, not one of them ever begged for their lives? As far as I can remember anyway - the closest I can think of is a few who looked scared and tried to run (e.g. like the female vamp Buffy speared in Into the Woods). There were many times when a human in the same situation, even an evil one, would have said "Please don't kill me!". Yet it seems that it never even occurs to a vampire to beg for mercy. Perhaps it's the fundamental lack of empathy or identification with humans = inability to think of begging for life. But it doesn't seem to happen even when the attacker is another vampire.

I have to ask what Buffy would have done if a vamp had ever begged for mercy. It's easy to kill an aggressive attacker who's trying to kill you. But she would usually let a fleeing vamp go, and she seemed to be slightly bothered a few times when the vamp wasn't actively attacking (like the old lady she apologized to before killing her in Sleeper). Over the years she probably came to consider it a fundamental inhuman characteristic of vampires that they would never make such an appeal, and she might have been completely thrown if it had ever happened. Not to mention the audience! It was one of the things that kept the audience from questioning the Slayer code of "stake first, ask questions later".


[> Re: A psychological difference between vampires and humans -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:17:37 03/17/04 Wed

A few possibilities:

1) Vampires are more dedicated to evil than most humans are to good, and so won't compromise.

2) Vampires get a rush off of having so much power to the point where they're too proud to beg.

3) Vampires, being immortal by nature, have a hard time accepting the fact that they're going to die.

4) Vampires, being already dead, are very accepting of death.

5) The blood lust during a fight is so strong that their logical capactities are drowned out.

6) Vampires do beg, it just happens off camera.

7) Vampires have a death wish.

8) Vampires, being evil by nature and socialising with other highly evil people, have come to believe begging never works.

9) Most of the vampires we've seen were originally Sunnydale residents, who, as we all know, have a knack for going into denial about the bad things in life.

10) Actors have to be paid substantially more money if they have any lines, so ME carefully constructs the show so that most vampires never say a word.

[> [> One more possibility -- Gyrus, 09:56:03 03/17/04 Wed

If the vampires begged for mercy, we might pity them and become unsympathetic to our vampire-killing heroine. That's not good for ratings.

[> [> or maybe... -- anom, 17:11:14 03/17/04 Wed

...vampires enjoy it when humans beg them for mercy, so they assume the Slayer (or a human or souled vamp) would feel the same way, & they don't want to give her the satisfaction!

[> [> Buffy S2 Innocence - Dalton and the Judge -- Cheryl, 18:07:27 03/17/04 Wed

Didn't Dalton (Spike's vampire with glasses) try to get away and beg for mercy when the Judge was about to burn him? Or was he just freaking out? I guess since it was one demon killing another, it probably doesn't matter, but I remember it seeming odd - probably because like you said, we really don't see that from a vampire in the Whedonverse.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy S2 Innocence - Dalton and the Judge -- Ames, 18:55:03 03/17/04 Wed

Close, but not quite begging...

From Surprise:

Drusilla: (smiles) Would you like a party favor? (indicates her guests)

The Judge looks at the party guests. His gaze settles on Dalton.

Judge: This one is full of feeling. He reads. Bring him to me.

Another vampire grabs Dalton and keeps him from running away.

Spike: What's with the bringing? I thought you could just zap people.

Judge: My full strength will return in time. Until then... I need contact.

The Judge steps over to Dalton.

Dalton: No. No! NO!

The Judge puts his hand on Dalton's chest, and he begins to smoke.
Drusilla watches excitedly. The Judge's hand begins to burn into Dalton, who quickly combusts, disappearing in a flash of flame and smoke.

Drusilla: (gasps) (gleefully) Do it again! Do it again!

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy S2 Innocence - Dalton and the Judge -- skpe, 15:40:33 03/18/04 Thu

Didnít the Vamps that Adam recruited fear for there lives and Adam said something to the affect that vampires being immortal fear death more than humans (donít remember the exact quote)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Vamps in Who Are You? -- Ames, 23:12:58 03/18/04 Thu

Fear yes, begging no.

From Who Are You?:

Vampire: Kill this guy already.
[One vampire charges Adam and Adam grabs it by the throat and holds it.]

Adam: You fear the cross. The sun. Fire. And, oh, yes...
[Adams puts his other hand on the vampire's shoulder and he lifts the vampire's head from its shoulders. The body falls and he drops the head on it and they turn to dust.]

Adam: I believe decapitation is a problem as well.

Vampire: You can have the place. I mean, we don't have to stay here anymore.

Adam: You fear death. Being immortal, you fear it more than those to whom it comes naturally. Vampires are a paradox.

Vampire: Ok, we're a paradox. That's cool.

Adam: Demon in a human body. You walk in both worlds and belong to neither. I can relate. Come. We have a lot to talk about.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy S2 Innocence - Dalton and the Judge -- skpe, 15:42:23 03/18/04 Thu

Didnít the Vamps that Adam recruited fear for there lives and Adam said something to the affect that vampires being immortal fear death more than humans (donít remember the exact quote)

Here's my list of fave eps..... -- Mike, 19:54:48 03/17/04 Wed

Here' my list of favorite ANGEL episodes, although every 1 of them may as well be fave eps b/c it's been simply the best series on tv since 1999. I can't even remember what my fave series was prior to ANGEL.

Anyways, here's the list, see what you think:

1st Season
City Of - The beginning of a terrific series, Angel finally
steps out from Buffy's shadow.
Hero - Heartbreaking, Doyle's bravery, sales pitch, ultimate sacrifice, a true classic!
Five By Five - AI dealing with Faith, plenty of things going on, great last scene.
To Shanshu In LA - Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn, the prophecy, W&H, Vocah, and a kick-ass fight scene including
Angel vs. Lindsey, another true classic!

2nd Season
Redefinition - Where another side of Angel comes around,
setting vamps on fire, characters develop further.
Epiphany - Angel tries to make up for what he has done,
back on track to help the helpless, AI fully reformed.
Dead End - Angel & Lindsey teaming up, Cordelia's visions
on another level, interesting exit for an interesting villian (for a few years anyway).

3rd Season
Dad - Angel dealing with raising a child, the fakeout, tearjerking last scene and last shot.
Sleep Tight - Wesley's betrayal and throat cut, when things could've been fixed but got a whole lot worse, Holtz takes Connor away from Angel.
Forgiving - Angel in total humanistic rage over losing Connor, kidnapping Linwood, using W&H's dark magicks, Sahjhan's revelation, and that chilling last scene.
New World - Angel & Connor interaction, the beginning of
Wesley & Lilah, a more in-depth look at LA's drug dealers
and addicts.
Tomorrow - Angel's unlife finally seems to be coming together, living with Connor, romance with Cordelia, and more happiness for Fred, Gunn, Lorne, Connor's deceit, Wesley & Lilah have sex,W&H again, things will get darker!

4th Season
Deep Down - Wesley pulls Angel out from the ocean, that awesome speech at the end.
Inside Out - Revelations from the last few years, the mindtrip of previous events.
Home - Angel taking the deal with W&H, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Lorne along for the madness, Cordelia's leave, a new direction taking place where things will get even darker than ever, already a true classic!

5th Season
Conviction - A new era begins, Angel & friends thrust into the belly of the beast, things seemed to still be ok, boy what we were going to be in for, Angel even kills a human here.
Damage - No one trusts Angel & the others anymore, now working in an evil place, Angel & Spike, great end scene.
You're Welcome - Angel & Cordelia once again, Lindsey's return discovered, that heartbreaking discovery of Cordelia's death, Angel's very sad reaction. A tragic loss.
Hole In The World - Angel & friends helpless to save Fred,
Fred & Wesley, yet another tearjerking last scene, repercussions of the deal with W&H coming in full force.
Shells - Angel & others lose another friend, Wesley & Gunn,
Illyria's emergence, the darkness just keeps taking over.

Perhaps more faves on the way for the rest of the season.
Feel free to agree or disagree. There's only sooo many
ANGEL faves to cover


[> my pics [influenced (subconsciously) by wine]..... -- Seven, 21:27:19 03/17/04 Wed

Season One

The Ring -- Wesley assures us he can be a bad @$$

Parting Gifts -- Rogue demon hunter extroidinarre

Hero -- Cordy doesn't care Doyle's a demon

Five by Five/Sancuary -- w/ the latter being better cause of the Watcher's Wetworks crew

Season 2

Are You Now or Have You Ever Been? -- Just freakin awesome

The Trial -- Drusilla's entrence is chilling every time I see it.

Guise will be Guise -- just a classic

Dead End -- "Cops suck" is all I have to say

Season 3

Sleep Tight -- Wes' betrayal. Nuff said

Lullaby -- a slowly moving can of gasoline goes a long way for drama

Forgiving -- "You're dead Price!! Dead!! Dead!!!" How freakin haunting is that?

Tomorrow -- If I saw this as a new episode, I would have had an anyerism at the end.

Season 4

Extremely hard -- my first (more or less) full season and I still love it

Spin the Bottle -- "Don't touch my arms!" That's comedy

Apocolypse Nowish -- Wes with a shotgun is always cool

Long Day's Journey -- Manny and the end of the ep made the series for me.

Awakining -- Ambose Bierce, Whedon style!

Inside Out -- the episodes just kept getting cooler

Sacrifice -- what the eff is going to happen?

Peace out -- aggggh! What??!!!

Home -- simply amazing

Season five

Conviction -- watched it 8 times before Just Rewards

The Cautionary tale of Numerou Cinco -- After some episodes, I need to spend time alone because the symbolic goodness is so good

Lineage -- Double-fisted Wes always makes for a great ep

Destiny -- a half-hour Spike/Angel Fight? nuff said. Or not!! Lindsay?!?! My god I love this show

Soul Purpose -- a great "restless" like ep

You're Welcome -- Personally, i love the end to the Lindsay/Eve arc

Smile Time -- I got allata Demon in me!!

A Hole in the World -- the beginning rules. I love the Spike/Angel intro, and also the Fred in bed scene, and the "I'm gonna say it anyway. Winifred Burkle." and everyone starts moving. That's freakin awesome.

That's it for me. Wow, it's hard tocut it down to a managable number.


How AtS Characters fill out their NCAA Brackets (Spoilers for AtS 5.08 "Damage") -- Dlgood, 23:52:37 03/17/04 Wed

How AtS characters fill out their Wolfram & Hart NCAA Tourney office pool:

Angel follows sports - almost religiously. He keeps up with College Gameday. He watched the CBS selection show. He watched bracketology with Joe Lunardi and Jay Bilas. He's broken it down ruthlessly. He favors strong performances, skilled players and successful coaches. He knows that Connecticut, the preseason favorite, is a near consensus pick of the Basketball literatti. Then he says "screw it" and picks Kentucky instead. But at the 11th hour, he switches to Connecticut after all.

Spike doesn't have time for that, and doesn't quite care. He picks based upon which mascots would win in fights, which players look toughest, and which coaches have the most combative attitudes. But he's not stupid, and adjusts his picks because he does actually want to win. He's taken Gonzaga, because those Bulldogs are tough, successful, and even though they're the underdog darlings of the field - still never get the same love and respect that major conference blue-bloods like Duke or Kentucky get.

Fred relies upon a complex series of formulae and statistical analysis that make the RPI and BCS look simplistic. But then, she has a bias toward teams that are smart, and can make the big shot when it matters. She has Stanford.

Harmony initially took UCLA, until Spike informed her that they didn't actually make the field. So she picks based upon who has the prettiest uniforms, handsomest players, nicest names, and best looking coaches. She was going to take Duke, but couldn't quite figure out how to pronounce "Krzyzewski". So she went with North Carolina because they have the prettiest, pastel-y-est uniforms in the field.

Lorne hangs out with John Wooden to get the inside scoop. But he's an empath with a soft spot for the little guy with the biggest heart. He's a softy for Philly people like Phil Martelli and Jameer Nelson and thus picks St. Joseph's.

Knox wouldn't know a basketball if it hit him in the head. But he is drawn to the legacy of past glory and potential future dominance. He has Duke.

Wesley didn't enter the pool. He cares far more about reviewing ancient prophecy. Of course, he's actually thought too much about it and would rather avoid the mockery and humiliation that would result when his grandiose theories proved disastrously incorrect.

Gunn used to be cool. He used to ball. Back in the day, he would have probably gone with a tough but skilled team like Mississippi State, Oklahoma State, or Pittsburgh. But then he sold out to W&H and got a brain injection. As a sign of his increasing corruption, he too selects Duke.

Eve was not allowed to play.

Lindsey, if he were, would have selected the Cowboys of Oklahoma State.

Two reminders: Send those postcards to the FOX execs, and WATCH "WONDERFALLS" TONIGHT!! -- Rob, 12:08:03 03/18/04 Thu

1) reprinting Masq's post, b/c it can't be said too many times:

Website reports that the latest negotiations have stalled between The WB and 20th Century Television Productions for a new season of ANGEL, in large part due to the issue of increased licensing fee 20th hopes to see. This information shows that it is very important for us to target 20th Century Fox and ask them to 'enter into a meaningful dialogue to negotiate a mutually beneficial license fee' with The WB, or another network, to ensure that Angel stays on the air.

Contact addresses:

Mr. Gary Newman and Ms. Dana Walden

Twentieth Century Fox Television
10201 West Pico Blvd
Building 88, Room 29
Los Angeles, CA 90035

Phone: 310-369-5962
Fax: 310-369-8726


Gail Berman, President of Entertainment
Fox Broadcasting
10201 West Pico Blvd., Blg.100, Rm.4450
Los Angeles, CA 90064-2606

Steven Feldstein
20th Century Fox Television
2121 Ave. of the Stars, Rm 2519
Los Angeles, CA 90067

and 2) The pilot of "Wonderfalls," entitled "Wax Lion" is reairing tonight at 9 pm eastern time on FOX. Even if you already saw it, if you have a Nielsen box, please watch (and, being someone who watched the episode 3 times already, I can tell you that it is one of those shows that gets better each time you watch; you notice more details and layers on each viewing). The show is in desperate need of ratings!



[> Speaking of reminders... HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Rob!!! -- Aliera, 07:11:18 03/19/04 Fri is today right? How many pompoms... errr.. candles?

[> [> THANK YOU!!! and, ahem, 23 candles. Or is that 24, because 1 for good luck? -- Rob, 07:14:29 03/19/04 Fri

[> [> Oh? Happy Happy Birthday Rob!! Hope it's a great 23! -- s'kat, 09:31:02 03/19/04 Fri

[> [> hey. rob!! happy birthday! & many happy reruns -- anom, 10:10:16 03/19/04 Fri

Enjoy that huge party in N.J.! @>)

[> [> HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Rob!!! -- cjl, 11:51:53 03/19/04 Fri

Sorry about the no-go on the BuffyCon. (I know, bailing out on both Xander and Lilah? Surely I'm touched in the head...)

Maybe I can make it up to next month (April 17?), when I drive the NYC contingent upstate to meet aliera (and son) and our favorite TV sitcom family, The Darbys.

[> [> Yahoo! Happy Birthday! -- KdS, 13:59:50 03/19/04 Fri

I finally hear of one before the day's over!

[> [> You're getting very old -- Tchaikovsky, 14:16:10 03/19/04 Fri

I can't imagine being as old as you are!

Many happy returns.


[> [> Feliz Navidad, Rob! Oh, wait, that's not right... *** Happy Birthday! *** -- OnM, 19:24:33 03/19/04 Fri

[> Have a wonderful birthday, Rob! -- Arethusa, 09:14:33 03/19/04 Fri

[> [> Thanks, everybody!! :o) :o) :o) -- Rob, 11:39:47 03/19/04 Fri

[> Happy Birthday Rob! -- Masq, 10:00:22 03/19/04 Fri

[> [> Re: Happy Birthday Rob! -- Brian, 10:19:07 03/19/04 Fri

[> Happy Birthday Rob! -- DorianQ, 20:39:44 03/19/04 Fri

[> [> Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you.. -- Jane, 22:26:08 03/19/04 Fri

it's the day when you can have your cake and eat it too! (hey, that rhymes.) Hope it was fun.

[> Happy Birthday Rob! -- Matlack73, 04:44:20 03/20/04 Sat

[> Happy Birthday Rob.....;):):):):):):):):):):):):) -- Rufus, 20:34:52 03/20/04 Sat

[> Awwww, thanks, everybody! -- Rob, 07:23:41 03/22/04 Mon

OT: Century City -- Gyrus, 13:37:48 03/18/04 Thu

Anybody have an opinion about this new series? I watched the premiere the other night, and I think the show could go either way -- it could become clever, stimulating, and relevant, or it could die from too much soap and cheese.



[> Re: OT, Century City and Joss... -- Belladonna, 15:07:18 03/18/04 Thu

I caught the show, and had similar thoughts. I think it has the potential to be really thought provoking, but I honestly don't think it will be. Considering that in the pilot they had a chance to really deal with the idea of cloning, but instead of examining the issue and its philosophical consequences, they just settled for a simple, easy happy ending. I found myself thinking how much better the show would be if someone like Joss was running it. If Joss did it, it would be a philosophical gold mine. The characters would resonate (except for the genetically engineered lawyer, no one on this show does, so far), and the plots, twists, and issues would surprise and intrigue.
I suppose there's a possibility that it could be good (I'll tune in for another episode or two), but I think it's likely to feel more like The Practice meets Melrose Place. Just my two cents... :)

[> [> Re: OT, Century City and Joss... -- MaeveRigan, 07:03:53 03/19/04 Fri

After one episode, Century City seems a sad waste of Ioan Gruffydd. Put that man back on a sailing ship in knee-britches and a tailcoat, for heavens' sake!

Sentimentality was the cheap way out of the cloning dilemma. They're going to have to try harder (and write better) than that.

[> [> [> Re: OT, Century City and Joss... -- Gyrus, 09:09:28 03/19/04 Fri

Sentimentality was the cheap way out of the cloning dilemma.

I certainly agree that it was cheap, though one could argue that it was their best (and possibly only) option. That was why they went for a jury trial, after all.

Another thing that bugged me was that they kept referring to post-2004 cases, which made me wonder if the writers were trying to cover their lack of knowledge about real-life law. I'm not a lawyer, though, so I don't know that for a fact.

[> [> [> [> post-2004 law -- anom, 10:25:44 03/19/04 Fri

"Another thing that bugged me was that they kept referring to post-2004 cases, which made me wonder if the writers were trying to cover their lack of knowledge about real-life law."

A lot of the situations those laws deal with haven't arisen yet. The law is always catching up w/new developments...or trying to. So present-day law doesn't cover the legal status of a cloned embryo/cell cluster as property or a human life, & the writers have to (or are free to) imagine how the law might deal w/it between now & 2030.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the basic premise of the show in this thread. It's about a law firm in the year 2030 & how the law & society are affected by issues coming out of changes in technology & attitudes. Instead of LA Law, it's SF Law. Not San Francisco--science fiction.

Speaking of which, I'm off to an SF convention in about an hour! Have a good weekend, everyone!

[> Re: OT: Century City -- Silky, 11:27:13 03/20/04 Sat

I was disappointed in it - esp. because they got the science wrong! If the 'son' was a clone of the 'father' then they wouldn't need another clone for the liver transplant--the 'father' would be a perfect match.


[> [> Re: OT: Century City -- Gyrus, 18:45:01 03/20/04 Sat

I was disappointed in it - esp. because they got the science wrong! If the 'son' was a clone of the 'father' then they wouldn't need another clone for the liver transplant--the 'father' would be a perfect match.

I think they said something about the father having had hepatitis or something, so he couldn't donate.

Where and When was Lorne in Spin the Bottle? -- Ray, 00:07:40 03/19/04 Fri

Since so much of the arc was planned out way ahead of time, I keep wondering if there was some point or meaning to Lorne telling the story from long after the events of year 4.


[> Re: Where and When was Lorne in Spin the Bottle? -- Seven, 05:29:19 03/19/04 Fri

That would be interesting but I think that it was just supposed to give the story that noirish feeling, the feeling of uncertainty and not knowing where to go. Remember, Lorne (the narrator) wasn't exactly "somewhere else.'" There are moments when Lorne (in the story) talks to the audience as well.

The idea that he's telling the story from the future would have been a great revelation but I don't think that the story was really presented that way and that kind of reveal would take away from the episode.

After "Life of the Party," I tend to think of it more like this. The "Host" or narrator Lorne was Lorne's empathic side. It was what was going through his mind as everyone's emotions were high and likely worn on their sleeve. Remember how Lorne likes to come up with stories. (Just Rewards -- his mention to Wes about the genius of the Angel/Spike scenario --"I'm thinking Depp and Bloom, but then who isn't these days!") Lorne could sense all of it and was telling the story in his head. That's my explanation. But really, I think Joss wanted to do noir.


return of the dixie chicks poster (spoilers for "shells") -- anom, 00:47:25 03/19/04 Fri

Just gotta get this off before I go away for the weekend.

Shells was the 1st ep in a long time where we saw Fred's Dixie Chicks poster, as Wes was packing her things in the lab. There were a lot of comments on this poster when Fred 1st put it up, & speculation on what it might mean. I have no idea what it might mean given Fred's death & Illyria's manifestation in her body, but I was hoping some of my fellow ATPosters might.

And something I didn't get to in a now-archived thread (might as well put it here): someone mentioned fractals in regard to Fred's shattered/scattered memories that Illyria can access. It made me think of the possibility of elements of both personalities as intersecting fractals...yields a very Escher-esque picture. And Fred made an Escher reference about the intertangled organic & cybernetic elements in the cyborg she dissected in Legacy. Might be a connection there.


[> From Lineage........spoilers for Shells. -- Rufus, 01:59:59 03/19/04 Fri

From Lineage:
WESLEY: I was just coming down to find you.

FRED: Though I do have to take a boatload of antibiotics. Apparently, there's some concern about where that grappling hook's been. Oh, we're taking the cyborg apart in the lab right now. You should see how intricate it is. It's like an M.C. Escher picture, but with wires and flesh instead of geese.

Later in the lab;

FRED: We found cybernetics throughout the body, in most cases replacing entire organic systems.

ANGEL: Was it human?

FRED: We think so. The nervous system seems human at least, but the rest of the technology is so foreign to us. We can't be sure of anything right now. This thing really blurs the line between human and robot.

SPIKE: Aha! So you're not ruling out that a human being could've boffed a robot. Sex with robots is more common than most people think.

FRED: Um, the cybernetics require central processing to function, which means if we can crack its memory, we may find a record of everything it's done till this point.

ANGEL: And maybe figure out who or what it wanted.

SPIKE: Hey! Did youó Sorry.

FRED: Um, so far, we haven't had much luck decoding the encryption.

KNOX: It seems to be a binary-based system, so we'll get there eventually. We just have to find the right transform variable.

FRED: Sure. (points to a circular device in the abdomen of the cyborg) We found a series of symbols we haven't been able to decipher.

WESLEY: Yes. Interesting.

KNOX: We're reading trace radiation signatures, so we've been hesitant to crack it open.

FRED: Could be a bomb, some sort of self-destruct device.

Notice that Fred is the one who was cautious with the circular device in the cyborg, Wes being the one who pressed that device and almost blew the building up. Ironic that the next circular device is pressed by Fred herself, leading to a different kind of destruction. Then again there is the issue of memory, what is it with memory that makes us who we are or human for that matter?

[> [> Memories and feelings........spoilers for Shells. -- Lunasea, 10:42:26 03/19/04 Fri

With the mindwipe still unresolved, there has been much discussion about memories and how they shape us. What is it about memories that make us who we are?

"I have her memories, her feelings. Isn't that what makes a person who they are?"

There is no "and" in that sentence. It isn't her memories AND her feelings. It is her memories, her feelings, almost as if the latter was just repeating or restating the former. She says isn't THAT what makes a person, singular. She doesn't say those what make a person, plural. Memories and feelings are one thing.

That is why Angel and Angelus are seen to be two different creatures and why Angel and Spike know the soul is so important. There are continuities between unsouled and souled vampires, but their feelings change. That change is important. Very important. Angel's conflict comes because his vampiric nature isn't completely gone and he feels guilty for things, but his vampiric side still enjoys them.

The memory that Illyria plays for Wesley isn't just an event. It is an intense feeling. Illyria not only has access to the events of Fred's life, but more importantly she has access to her feelings. Can we say Fred is really gone if those live on? A shell affects the organism that inhabits it. The shell determines its shape. What emotional/psychic shape will Illyria take?

Season 5-7 on BtVS was heart-spirit-mind. Angel is different from Buffy. Buffy was the innocent girl that grew up. The extent of her "damage" was being on the path to being like Cordelia, which was dealt with by her becoming Slayer. Angel isn't just growing up. He needs redemption. His damage is rather extensive. For heart-spirit-mind (and I really hope we get to see the last two of the triad) we are seeing this through someone that was damaged. This season has been about the importance of feelings.

Fred is the perfect character to be Illyria. From "Sacrifice"

FRED: (irritated) That the world we're fighting for? The right to be heartless, an uncaring shell? To be dead inside?

GUNN: We're gonna be dead, period, if Jasmine gets a hold of that kid. We're fightin' for our survival. (walks away)

FRED: That's not enough, Charles, not for me. May-maybe you can turn off your feelings like Angel can, leave the people we care about behind.

Fred admits to Gunn: You're right about all of it except for one thing. What we did, I felt it. Every bit of it. And, you know, sometimes when I allow myself to think about it, it eats me up inside.

This is what Illyria now has to deal with. She isn't an empty shell. Fred left stuff behind, stuff that will affect Illyria. I look forward to seeing just how.

Memory is more than just events. It is the feelings those events cause. Those feelings don't just make us who we are. They ARE who we are.

Then again (insert standard disclaimer here about how this is my opinion)

[> [> [> Interesting points, Lunasea.. -- Jane, 23:00:44 03/19/04 Fri

"The right to be heartless? An uncaring shell?" Talk about foreshadowing. Illyria may be a shell but she does seem to have feelings; quite human like feelings actually. I wonder how many of those are hers, and how many are remnants of Fred. Fred felt all of it, and her power was to not let go. Maybe she did stay in some way after all. I do think that the reference back to the "ghost" of Darla has real significance, as you say. Memory and feelings make us who we are. I wonder if having amnesia would change the core of who a person is?

[> [> [> Re: Memories and feelings........spoilers for Shells. -- Rufus, 23:44:55 03/19/04 Fri

You are talking about season 4 Angel, Inside Out where Connor meets Darla who says she is from the PTB's. No such thing has been said about what was left from Fred. So, can memory be seperate from feelings, existing as just bits of data that equal a beings past experiences? It made me think of what Harold Bloom said in "The Western Canon"....

Cognition cannot proceed without memory.

[> [> [> [> We have seen....spoilers for Shells. -- Lunasea, 07:37:08 03/20/04 Sat

No such thing has been said about what was left from Fred.

We did not see a mechanical recollection of what Fred had said. We saw one of the most intense, emotional filled moments of her life delivered with emotion. Delivering these is going to affect Illyria.

My hope, and this is coming solely unspoiled from me, is that Wesley is the one that helps her deal with good/evil and Spike is the one that helps her deal with feelings. Angel can help her deal with no longer being what she once was. There is a lot of potential in this character and I wish we had more episodes to explore her.

I'm routing for Spike/Illyria at this point. Wesley/Illyria is just a redo of Wes/Fred. If Spike helps her deal with all these feelings, I can see her developing feelings for him and him for her because of how vulnerable she makes herself to him in her questioning.

Another thought I had is the leather outfit she is wearing is not only sexy, but is a form of armor that insulates her from the world. I would like to see that change to something that allows her to feel more, something flowy and pretty. Not regular clothes like Fred wears, but something befitting a Goddess, for that is what she is.

I want her and Spike to have a conversation about what love is. I want her to realize that her followers didn't love her and through this for her to articulate what Spike realizes about how he felt about Buffy pre-soul. I want them to talk about how the feelings her followers have things in common with love, but what Fred felt for Wesley was also different. I want her to ask Spike if he loves anyone and for him to say he loves Buffy. I want her to ask him why he isn't with Buffy and for him to say out loud because she doesn't love him. I want her to have a similar conversation with Angel, though Angel says that she does love him. (I also want Illyria to fix the curse, but I'm tired of the curse)

Then I want SMG to show up and the season to end wonderfully.

I want lots of things. Let's see how many I get.

[> [> [> [> [> Coats -- Ann, 08:26:47 03/20/04 Sat

"Another thought I had is the leather outfit she is wearing is not only sexy, but is a form of armor that insulates her from the world."

Yes, and it also had a shell embossed design on it at the shoulders.

Coats are important in MEverse. Obviously the "coat" that will not be named (as I now refer to it), Angel's sexy duster, Buffy's reliance on leather - more fashionable and ever changing coats (Joseph in the bible and his coat changes, metaphor for his journey to his ultimate destiny). The powerful characters wear leather. Willow only wears it post evil-Willow and I am not sure Zander ever does?

In science there is a Buffy coat: definition: Resembling, or characterised by, buff. Buffy coat, the coagulated plasma of blood when the red corpuscles have so settled out that the coagulum appears nearly colourless. This is common in diseased conditions where the corpuscles run together more rapidly and in denser masses than usual.

Our Buffy certainly has been spun around and her layers revealed like this scientific technique allows.

So much goodness!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: We have seen....spoilers for Shells. -- Rufus, 19:17:28 03/20/04 Sat

Two spots in Shells to remember.........

ILLYRIA: My name... You would presume to speak my name... Because I have returned in the body of the human, you think you can speak to me. It's disgusting.


WESLEY: So you don't know who Fred is.

ILLYRIA: Nor care. Bleat (yet another reference to sheep) at me no longer. We're done.


ILLYRIA: You seek to save what's rotted through. This carcass is bound to me. I could not change that if I cared to, but you have opened my eyes to truth. If the world is truly overrun by humans...then I have work to do.


ILLYRIA: You're too late. My army will rise. This world will be mine once again. (arrives at the nave of the temple, only to see her statue has been toppled and her army is dead)No!

Illyria looks around the temple. The columns are broken. The place is silent as a grave. Her temple is in complete ruin.

ILLYRIA: It can't be. (panting, crushed)It's gone.
(falls to her knees, runs her hands through the sand)
My world is gone.

WESLEY: Now you know how I feel.


ILLYRIA: I've nowhere to go. My kingdom is long dead.
(softly)Long dead. There's so much I don't understand. I've become overwhelmed. I'm unsure of my place.

No matter how mighty Illyria was before, it/she resides in a new shell new perspective....she just may begin to understand just how Wesley and humanity "feels".

[> Re: return of the dixie chicks poster (spoilers for "shells") -- angel's nibblet, 22:49:22 03/21/04 Sun

Twill be interesting to see how Illyria would handle the revers of the mind whipe, which we hope will eventuate before the end of the series :-|

Lie to Me - Billy's Ford's little fantasy drama -- Cactus Watcher, 07:39:04 03/19/04 Fri

It's one of the common fantasies of teenage boys: dying for your girlfriend, and having her proud, grateful and weepy for the rest of her life from thinking about you all the time. But sooner or later a guy realizes it's just a fantasy, and not a very bright one at that. Girlfriends mostly come and go. People die and their loved ones mostly get over it.

Billy Ford's little fantasy drama, as even Buffy calls it, comes scripted complete with dramatic scenes and even what he thinks is exciting dialog. Ford's little twist is that he wants his old girlfriend to die for him.

We have a lot of lying in the episode. Willow may have great difficulty even considering lying, but as Angel says sometimes lying is easier than telling the truth. Ford deceives Buffy to lure her to the vampires, because he can't face his fate. Angel pretends he wasn't out and around to avoid getting into the whole subject of Drusilla and her history with Buffy. None of the lies is very good. They are all either transparent or quickly found out. Buffy says at one point she's tired of them. But, her opinion changes as the episode heads to the end. When the reality of Ford's dilemma sinks into Buffy's mind, if she can't forgive him, at least she can understand the difficulty of his position. Early in the final graveyard scene with Giles, she already knows she's had to trade Ford's life for the rest of the partiers and she knows in all likelihood, she'll have to slay what's left of him. At the end of the show, it's truths that she's tired of hearing.

Along with all the lies comes self-deception. The partiers in their loneliness call the vampires the 'lonely ones.' It's no accident that the vampires in the episode all seem to have plenty of companionship, even mutual sympathy and compassion. It's the partiers who seem to have only their isolation and desperation for something better in common.

Angel thinks he can keep painful truths away from Buffy. But he must understand that Buffy has to deal with those truths sooner or later. Giles even says it's called growing up.

Ford in his own personal fantasy sees himself the winner in a dangerous game. But he fails to notice the warnings; he mouths the words of the film clip as Jack Palance as Dracula scoffs at mortals trying to match wits with him, he knows Buffy is the Slayer and that she's handled packs of vampires before, he hears Buffy's warning that afterlife as a vampire is not a substitute for life. But nothing can sway him from trying to live out that fantasy. He creates the action in the story. But in the end, he's little more than a puppet in a play scripted for his demise by the vampires, like the rest of the partiers walking into a trap of his own making.


[> Re: Lie to Me - Not that Whedony? -- Darby, 09:48:08 03/19/04 Fri

Of all of the Joss-written episodes, this is one of that feel the least like a Joss episode.

There are some touches, such as the "They don't even know how vampires dress" schtick and the Divinyls reference, but it seems like Joss is actually shying away from his trademark patter. Or maybe it's the way Jason Behr delivers his lines...or is it just me-?

[> [> I think maybe that's a matter of expectation. -- CW, 10:56:59 03/19/04 Fri

Even at that stage we were beginning to look forward to Whedon written episodes as something special. "Lie to Me" isn't particulary special, but is a good enough regular episode. Often I didn't pay too much attention to who wrote each episode until I'd seen it. If after the episode, I'd think that it was pretty ho, hum, I'd check my tape to see if David Fury wrote it. If feminist side-themes tended to overshadow the main plot I'd think Jane Espenson. Frankly when I was watching "Lie to Me" again this morning I didn't remember it was one Joss wrote nor much care who wrote it when it was over. I liked it when I first saw it and still do.

Expectation is sometimes a dangerous thing. We've already discussed "Amends" in Rob's annotation. Part of the problem with that episode was that Joss was trying for something really special on the level of say "Hush," and whether we agree on how good or bad it was, I think most of us would agree that he somewhat missed the mark in making it that special. Some of us, like me, react negatively enough that its importance toward the creation of the atmosphere of the Angel series is easily overlooked. I remember thinking after I first saw it, "That was lame, but nobody's perfect." As I said in the other thread I think some of what happened in the seventh season of Buffy was to force us to think of Amends in a different light. In some ways it did and in someways it just reinforced the original opinions.

[> Re: Lie to Me - Billy's Ford's little fantasy drama -- Alix, 04:21:29 03/20/04 Sat

Enjoyed your analysis. I find that "Lie to Me" is one of those eps that I enjoy more with each viewing, picking up each time on some new aspect. Like Darby, I wouldn't have recognized it as a Joss-written ep the first time through. But like most classic Joss eps, it has many layers, many of which you shed more light on.

But one thing I've never understood about the ending. Spike made it quite clear when he met Billy that he didn't relish the thought of turning him and consequently having him around forever and he was royally pissed (in the U.S., not the U.K. sense) at Billy, when they got trapped in the cellar after Buffy got the vamp groupies out. So it makes absolutely no sense to me for Spike and his gang to vamp Billy, thereby granting his wish of eternal undeadness after he didn't deliver the Slayer. FMPOV, it would only make sense for Spike to suck him dry...

O.K., even as I write this a possible explanation is beginning to take shape in my teeny brain. Perhaps, and I stress *perhaps*, Spike knew Buffy would wait at Billy's grave and that Billy would get his just desserts in spade (do I need any more metaphors in that mix?) when Buffy dusts him just as he realized his dream of becoming a vamp. But then Spike is too impulsive to think that through, it smacks too much of an Angel "finesse job". O.K. Through rambling now. Any thoughts?

[> [> Perhaps Spike was just keeping his word -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:05:28 03/20/04 Sat

Think of "What's My Line", where he paid Willy for delivering Angel rather than just taking him by force and possibly killing Willy to boot. You've got to remember, Spike was setting himself up as the Big Bad in Sunnydale's supernatural community, probably wouldn't be a good idea to just go killing someone after they lived up to their end of the deal (at least not in front of potentially traitorous minions, anyway).

[> [> [> Re: Perhaps Spike was just keeping his word -- CW, 09:19:35 03/20/04 Sat

I think it's a little of both, I was trying to get at the idea in my post of Ford getting his wish and Spike knowing full well vamp Ford probably wouldn't last an hour with the Slayer watching for him. Spike got to keep his word, lose an annoyance and maybe have a good sip of blood in the process. Tough for a vampire to lose on that kind of deal.

Wait a minute! Question re Fool for Love and Season 6 BtVS -- Old One, 13:02:18 03/19/04 Fri

The things that suddenly pop into your head. Didn't Spike tell Buffy he knew what it was like to claw your way out of your own grave, when he was holding her damaged hands at the beginning of Season 6?

Well, how would he know? In Fool for Love we see Drusilla bite him and then, apparently within a couple of hours, doesn't she introduce him to Angel and Darla? Also, in Lies My Parents Told Me, William's mother wonders where he's been for days, so she certainly didn't bury him.

Dang! That makes me crazy.



[> Re: Wait a minute! Question re Fool for Love and Season 6 BtVS -- RJA, 13:14:03 03/19/04 Fri

Although in the Angel episode Reunion, we know that Drusilla liked to do the sireing/vamping process properly, and so buried Darla in earth to get the right effect. It's possible that she actually put Spike into an actual grave he had to crawl out of.

[> [> That's what I was gonna say... -- Rob, 13:22:26 03/19/04 Fri

from "Reunion":

Woman:Ý "That sweet, but very odd English girl who was visiting him?"
Angel:Ý "Yeah.Ý Yes, it is."
Woman:Ý "I knew that pregnancy was in trouble the moment she told me about it.Ý Thin as a rail.Ý Couldn't be healthy - for the baby."
Angel:Ý "She said she was having a baby?"
Woman:Ý "She was very excited about getting the nursery ready for the birth.Ý I offered to show her some two-bedroom..."
Angel (to himself):Ý "Of course.Ý Dru would want the ritual."

Angel:Ý "Drusilla will want to put the body in the ground."
Wesley:Ý "Angel, are you certain about this? A burial isn't necessary for a newly made vampire to..."
Angel:Ý "It would be for Drusilla.Ý She's a classicist."


[> [> [> Good catch! -- Old One, 14:48:10 03/19/04 Fri

Thanks, to both of you.

[> [> [> [> Re: Good catch! -- Alix, 02:23:30 03/20/04 Sat

Thanks for bringing this point up. Being a continuity freak, it bothers me, too. But as with many aspects of the Jossverse, it takes some puzzling out. I love the fact that Joss wants us to think and doesn't use too many anvils, preferring to give us something to figure out. But to be perfectly honest, sometimes it hard to tell the difference between those nuts Joss gives us to crack and the little continuity glitches that slip past the writers.

I, too, assumed that Dru had obviously buried William, thus accounting for both Dru's "classisist" leanings alluded to by Angel and Anne's reaction to see her "missing" son again. But what kept nagging at me was the fact that Darla's grave was quite shallow (wasn't it in a greenhouse?) and I can't imagine that William's experience getting out of such a grave would be nearly as harrowing as Buffy's in Bargaining II. The only conclusion that I can come to is that back when William was vamped greenhouses and other such contraptions weren't that easy to come by and she simply got someone to bury him for her. Of course, with her strength she could have easily done it herself. In the latter case the grave *still* could have been rather shallow, though, which leaves me in the same quandry. But if we go with the first scenario of perhaps paying a gravedigger to give William "a proper burial" (couldn't involve Angel here, as she wanted this to be something all her own) then all the piece of the puzzle fit. Sometimes we need to fabricate our own continuity...

[> [> [> [> [> Or it could simply be the fact that Spike didn't want to mention the details -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:59:16 03/20/04 Sat

He was trying to make Buffy feel better by giving her someone to sympathise with. Saying, "Although, actually, my grave wasn't that shallow. Got out pretty easy." wouldn't really help that cause.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Good catch! -- punkinpuss, 10:46:21 03/20/04 Sat

Dru was in a rush when she vamped Darla -- she knew that Angel would be looking for them and needed to protect her "newborn" so she didn't have the luxury of giving Darla a proper burial, so voila, greenhouse with convenient big piles of dirt.

When Dru vamped William, she had no such worries. Whether William was buried in a potter's field or by Dru herself, she certainly didn't need to rush to the closest pile of dirt. But I can see Dru waiting for William to come out of his coffin, with the glee of a little kid at a Ready-Bake oven.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed, and... -- Rob, 12:24:14 03/22/04 Mon

But I can see Dru waiting for William to come out of his coffin, with the glee of a little kid at a Ready-Bake oven.

Hee! I love that!


[> [> Re: Wait a minute! Question re Fool for Love and Season 6 BtVS -- Arethusa, 13:30:02 03/19/04 Fri

She did tend to bury the things she killed.

Drusilla: (to Collin) Do you like daisies? Hmm? I plant them, but they always die. Everything I put in the ground withers and dies. (School Hard)

I've read that being buried alive was a wide-spread fear in Victorian England, and people even put bells on a string on the coffins in case the dead were just comatose. (I'm not sure if this is true, though.) I can see Dru making William go through that experience out of sheer craziness.

It's probably just an error, though.

[> Burial -- Joyce, 13:39:53 03/19/04 Fri

{Well, how would he know? In Fool for Love we see Drusilla bite him and then, apparently within a couple of hours, doesn't she introduce him to Angel and Darla? Also, in Lies My Parents Told Me, William's mother wonders where he's been for days, so she certainly didn't bury him.}

Drusilla didn't introduce VampWilliam to Angel and Darla within a couple of hours after biting him. Since William had disappeared for a couple of days, it is possible that he was buried as a "John Doe". Also, William had introduced Drusilla to Anne, before she had introduced him to Angel. Darla had left around that time to answer a summons from the Master.

[> [> Another possibility. Thanks. -- Old One, 14:51:16 03/19/04 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Another possibility. Thanks. -- Alix, 02:30:40 03/20/04 Sat

Thanks for bringing this point up. Being a continuity freak, it bothers me, too. But as with many aspects of the Jossverse, it takes some puzzling out. I love the fact that Joss wants us to think and doesn't use too many anvils, preferring to give us something to figure out. But to be perfectly honest, sometimes it hard to tell the difference between those nuts Joss gives us to crack and the little continuity glitches that slip past the writers.

I, too, assumed that Dru had obviously buried William, thus accounting for both Dru's "classisist" leanings alluded to by Angel and Anne's reaction to see her "missing" son again. But what kept nagging at me was the fact that Darla's grave was quite shallow (wasn't it in a greenhouse?) and I can't imagine that William's experience getting out of such a grave would be nearly as harrowing as Buffy's in Bargaining II. The only conclusion that I can come to is that back when William was vamped greenhouses and other such contraptions weren't that easy to come by and she simply got someone to bury him for her. Of course, with her strength she could have easily done it herself. In the latter case the grave *still* could have been rather shallow, though, which leaves me in the same quandry. Then again, as pointed out above, it could just be another example of Dru's wackiness. But if we go with the first scenario of perhaps paying a gravedigger to give William "a proper burial" (couldn't involve Angel here, as she wanted this to be something all her own) then all the piece of the puzzle fit. Sometimes we need to fabricate our own continuity...

And sorry for the double post, but I'm new here and posted it first higher up, not realizing there were additional responses to the original post. Can you say "s-l-o-w l-e-a-r-n-e-r"?

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