May 2002 posts

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Who's Your Daddy!! Congrats to David B.. and his hot wife! -- neaux, 15:05:33 05/02/02 Thu,1,9898,00.html

Looks like David B. is the father of a baby boy!

[> Re: Who's Your Daddy!! (Spoilers for The Price/A New World preview) -- Masq, 15:45:41 05/02/02 Thu

Let's hope this one stays young for a long time and doesn't hold a grudge against daddy.... : )

Is Lilah evil? -- yabyumpan, 23:37:22 05/02/02 Thu

Just finished watching Sleep Tight for the third time (wow, what an ep, I’d read the script, read on-line discussions, seen the screen caps but I was still left at the end with my jaw hanging open going “what the f***), anyway, Lilah. Is she just plain evil or is she just one very twisted individual who does evil things and is there a difference?
I’m not sure but I was struck by the scene with her and Angel in the bar.

“Angel: "Thing about a game face, Lilah, you wear it long enough, it stops being something you can put on and take off."
Lilah: "Wow. We've spent so much time and money on you. You're so pivotal to the coming cataclysm, that I sometimes forget how dense you can be. The game face - the one I worked so hard to get - I became that *years* ago. “

As that whole scene was playing out I heard
“No you don’t get it B, I don’t care”

Lilah reminds me of Faith, because of the evil that she’s been part of, she come to believe that’s what she is. There are big differences:
Faith started out with low self esteem, the one thing she felt good about was her power, when that power caused her to mistakenly kill , I think she began to see her power as a force for evil and used it as such.
Lilah I think uses power to feel good about herself, she can see her mother is well cared for and have herself a very comfortable life. For whatever reason, she has chosen this life (unlike Faith who was “chosen”) but I would imagine there is now no escaping it.

Has Lilah now become just “free range evil”? Is there a point where it is no longer possible to turn back from your path? If she wanted redemption (which seems unlikely at this point), would it be possible? Is it worse for humans to be evil than demons?

I’m sure this has already been covered, but I find it interesting that the most constantly evil beings in AtS are humans. I don’t know if anyone’s done it, but I’m sure if you tallied up all the evil acts in the past 3 years of AtS, humans would probably win hands down.

Comments, responses etc re: Lilah would be good. Apologies for the meanderings and bad grammar, just finishes a night duty. Off to bed now :-

[> Re: Is Lilah evil? -- JCC, 03:41:59 05/03/02 Fri

I saw Sleep Tight last night aswell and it left me with much the same question. Lilah has shown some level of human decency in the past, like in Billy, when she killed him. On some level, I think she cared about Lindsey. She defended him to Gavin Park.
In Sleep Tight, she finally showed that she is evil.
GAURD: What should we do with him(Angel)?
LILAH: Let him suffer.
The actions of a soul-less monster?

[> [> Re: Is Lilah evil? -- Deeva, 09:46:48 05/03/02 Fri

Lilah is a power-hungry bitch. And she would be the very first to admit it. In fact, if she were into bumper stickers, that would be it. Whatever it takes to get the job done, she will do it and pretty much without a second thought. At Wolfram & Hart, there is no room for second thoughts. She really doesn't care about anyone. She might seem to care about something but only because it will somehow affect or be for her benefit.

[> [> [> The Upcoming, Unexpected Coupling on AtS could change everything...(spoilers) -- cjl, 10:26:43 05/03/02 Fri

There are rumors everywhere about a Lilah/Wes sexplosion in the upcoming weeks, with Lilah trying to sway Wes over to the dark side. But what if a sexual relationship with a flawed, but generally swell guy starts working its mojo on Lilah, as well? We're all wondering if Lilah could turn Wes. Is it possible for Wes to turn Lilah?

[> [> [> [> Spoilery speculation above?? Or spoilers? -- Masq, 10:44:52 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Spoilers, I think, with spoilery speculation on top. -- cjl, 11:04:34 05/03/02 Fri

If the sources on the AtS board are right, Lilah's going to be playing Jedi mind games with Wes (Sith Lord mind games?), feeding his bitterness, telling him that W&H will appreciate his skills in demonology more than those ungrateful wretches at A.I. ever could.

Then, at some point during the season finale, their hormones explode, and Lilah's desk gets some very intense action. (I hope she's put away the tarantula.)

Apparently, as a modern lawyer/businesswoman, Lilah likes her sex corporate and on a surface she trusts. (She also found Wes' desk irresistable when the possessed Angel put the moves on her in "Carpe Noctem.") But all seriousness aside, it also shows that superbitch is an achingly lonely woman who is desperate for a connection that doesn't involve inter-office memos, clearance from the Senior Partners, and a 37-page brief to the California Supreme Court.

I reiterate the question: is it possible for Wes to turn Lilah?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers, I think, with spoilery speculation on top. -- Deeva, 11:20:21 05/03/02 Fri

Linwood: The force is strong in this one. He can be put to use for our cause.

Lilah: He is weak.

Linwood: All the easier for you to sway him.

Lilah: What can I offer him? He will resist.

Linwood: You are a woman, he is a man. I trust that I don't have to paint a clearer picture than that. And you're the one who pointed out that he is weak. Use whatever it takes.

At least, that's just what popped into my head after reading cjl's post.

No, Wes! Look away! Don't look at the Dark Side!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wes had better be REALLY strong--even Lilah's Dark Side is pretty hot. -- cjl, 11:24:21 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's part of the reason why she's at W&H. -- Deeva, 11:27:34 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: The Upcoming, Unexpected Coupling on AtS could change everything...(spoilers) -- Miss Edith, 13:54:24 05/03/02 Fri

I think it would be more dramatically interesting to turn Wesley to the dark side so I'm guessing that's where they're going with this. Seeing Wesley become gradually corrupted would be a compelling story. Imagine how it would effect his former friends if he began working for Wolfram and Heart.
Lilah becoming good would mean there are no really interesting evil characters at the firm any more. Aside from Lindsay and Holland none of the other lawyers have made much of an impression on me. Plus Faith has been redemned and used little since although Eliza has clearly stated she is happy to come back if a good story is offered. Perhaps there is just less to do with the characters that become redemned.
I am all for exploring Lilah's human side but reforming a lawyer from Wolfram and Heart has already been done with Lindsay and I personally prefer Lilah as the cold hearted bitch she is. It might be good to see Wesely weaken her emotional defences though and find out more about whast makes her tick? Who knows what the writers are planing.

Hypocrite! Anya in 'Entropy' -- Liam, 02:31:32 05/03/02 Fri

After watching what happened between Anya and Spike in the above episode, it struck me that she was very hypocritical in her behaviour, because I'm sure that she once took terrible vengence on many men who behaved the same way she did. I'm thinking of a man saying, 'I was lonely, I was drunk, there was this woman who was understanding. What did you expect?'

What do people think?

[> I think she honestly thought Xander... -- AurraSing, 03:49:53 05/03/02 Fri

...truly did not love her at the point.From her point of view,how can he say that he loves her if he hurt her so bad by leaving her at the alter? So what she did was not done out of revenge or wanting to hurt Xander,but to gain a little comfort and understanding.If the camera had not been there I don't think she would have ever thrown the sex-with- Spike in Xander's face.

[> [> Regardless of whether or not she planned on him finding out... -- AngelVSAngelus, 06:54:58 05/03/02 Fri

I agere with Liam. It probably WASN'T done out of vengeful need, but I wouldn't be surprised if those were the circumstances behind an event in the past when she cursed someone at the behest of a woman who found out.
But I think that's an intentional message against vengeance, something that's paralel at the moment between Buffy and Angel.

[> [> [> 'It was only one wench!' -- Liam, 08:38:02 05/03/02 Fri

The main reason why I regarded Anya's behaviour as hypocritical was because, according to what he said in 'Triangle', she turned a boyfriend into a troll because he engaged in similar behaviour. (This is without considering all the other men she did things to.)

According to Olaf:

OLAF: I did not cheat! Not in my heart. It was only one wench! I, I had had a great deal of mead! Next thing I know, I'm a troll! Ohh ... ohh ... you did this, Anyanka. You will die for this.

He therefore made three interesting excuses for his behaviour:

1. He did not cheat in his heart.
2. It was only one woman, and
3. He was drunk.

Doesn't it sound very similar to Anya's situation with Spike?

[> [> [> [> Re: 'It was only one wench!' -- alcibiades, 08:44:10 05/03/02 Fri

Similar -- but the main difference of course is that Anya considered herself broken up with Xander and Olaf did not.

I don't think it was hypocritical, because she obviously wasn't thinking, just reacting. I think it is the act which will carry her beyond to the next step of understanding once she has had time to reflect on it. She'll be able to put it into perspective.

[> [> [> [> [> What alci said! -- AurraSing (too tired to make more sense than that), 09:09:49 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: 'It was only one wench!' (SPOILERS for Entropy) -- Robert, 11:41:22 05/03/02 Fri

>> "Doesn't it sound very similar to Anya's situation with Spike?"

No, it does not. Olaf was Anyanka's husband and therefore morally committed to her. Xander was not Anya's husband. He left her at the altar, thus relieving any obligations to him she might previously have had. Therefore, the situations are not similar.

Regardless, Anya still felt badly when she realized how much she hurt Xander, thus showing the she still does feel something for him.

[> [> [> [> [> husband? -- Solitude1056, 12:33:42 05/03/02 Fri

Olaf was Anyanka's husband and therefore morally committed to her.

I didn't recall that they were married. Hunh, that does add a twist to the original situation, in that case - not to mention, it also adds an extra layer to Anya's insistence on "getting married"... wouldn't she be even more leery of marriage if she'd gotten her job because of (an apparently) failed marriage in the first place?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re:, not husband -- LittleBit, 12:48:30 05/03/02 Fri

Anya and Olaf were dating:

OLAF: You ...told the witch to do that, Anyanka. (Anya looks alarmed) You seem determined to put an end to all my fun. Just like you always did when we were dating.

ANYA: Hey Olaf! You're as inadequate a troll as you were a boyfriend!

From the mouths of each party: dating, boyfriend. Not husband

[Quotes from Psyche, Triangle S5 Ep11]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:, not husband -- Doug The Bloody, 13:49:07 05/03/02 Fri

Regardless, Olaf and Anya were in a relationship at the time of the drunkenness. Anya and Xander were finished.

Ergo: Spanya does not = Infidelity

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, what you said! -- Robert, 20:23:47 05/03/02 Fri

[> Re: Hypocrite! Anya in 'Entropy' -- alcibiades, 08:37:58 05/03/02 Fri

It is very purposefully constructed, since that is exactly the scenario the troll guy, Anya's boyfriend, was in (drunk, perhaps upset, casual sex with someone) before she turned herself/got turned into a vengeance demon and took revenge on him and made him into a troll.

I don't think her behaviour is hypocritical as much as karmic and it is meant to teach her something profound -- not to get stuck forevermore in the throes of one particular problem, but to learn to move past it to continue her development. She will (hopefully) now be able to move past her arrested development to continue to evolve.

Often you need to experience something from the other person's POV before you have enough wisdom to give you this perspective. And Anya is not someone who is naturally empathetic. Some people have a genius for empathy, but Anya is certainly not one of those -- she has to learn through pain.

[> [> humanity -- manwitch, 10:19:57 05/03/02 Fri

I agree with alcibiades about the Karma and teaching her something profound thing.

I don't think Troll's and Anya's situations are the same.

Anya was stood up at the altar on her wedding day.

Then, when she gave Xander the chance to make up and still say he wanted to get married, he merely said that if he had had the courage he would have called it off sooner.

Anya wanted marriage. From her perspective she was thoroughly dumped and humiliated in front of everyone she knew and loved.

So drunk and in pain and no longer betrothed, she made a mistake.

I don't think this is the same as cheating on your girlfriend.

Then let's add the factor that she is still newly human and this is her first time dealing with these sorts of issues and feelings in over a thousand years. Remember her breakdown in the Body? Same deal here. She doesn't know how to do it.

In the aftermath of her encounter with Spike, we see that she's learning. The point of Anya, and sometimes it seems to be the whole point of the season, is finding one's humanity, learning to be human, compassionate, caring, in spite of the pain. (One can't help recalling the message from the first slayer to Buffy). When Anya refuses to let spike say "i wish" she has taken a large step forward in her continuing journey towards humanity.

Xander is, of course, the hypocrite. He is a wonderful and lovable character, but every once in a while a very believable side of him that I call "Bastard Xander" comes out, and he becomes the most selfish and immature person imaginable. All in an extremely believable way, and I still love the character. But for him to use anything against Anya as an excuse to ease his own pain and guilt just makes him, well, Bastard Xander. Its not that I don't understand. I know he hates Spike. But Xander is not the injured party here. Anya is. If Xander really wanted to do something to make the pain go away, as he said, he would accept what happened and forgive. But clearly it was his OWN pain that he wanted to be rid of, not Anya's.

Same deal between Spike and Buffy. We could look at it and say, oh, Spike hurt Buffy, or say, as Buffy did, "that didn't take long." But then we would be overlooking the fact that she has been rejecting spike and telling him to move on for over a year now. It actually took quite a long time for him to move on it. And he, too, clearly regretted it afterwards. They made a mistake and they got caught. But that doesn't make Buffy and Xander the injured ones.

So again, this beautiful wonderful show turns us on our heads. Its the demons that we feel for, the demons who have been wronged, for whom we have compassion, the demons that evoke our humanity, while the humans leave us shaking our heads. I find myself further displeased with Xander than I already was, and I keep hoping that Buffy can figure it out. She doesn't have to marry spike.

She just has to acknowledge his humanity.

[> [> [> Re: humanity -- Corwin of Amber, 13:32:06 05/03/02 Fri

No....Anya went to Xander to wish he'd never been been born. Which she did, but she can't trigger her own wishes. In effect, she wanted to murder him.

[> [> [> [> Re: humanity -- manwitch, 13:54:22 05/03/02 Fri

No, she gave him a chance and when he responded with further insult, she lacked the experience and skill to deal with it in any other way.

She seemed prepared to allow him to say he wanted to marry her. He declined to say that.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: humanity -- Rattletrap, 14:18:31 05/03/02 Fri

Anya's response was excessive any way you look at it. Being left at the altar simply cannot justify murder.

Xander's handling of their conversation in his apartment was, IMO, indicative of his maturity. He recognizes that their previous relationship was built on a foundation of less-than-solid communication. He apologizes and rightly heaps blame on himself, and he tells her that he loves her. When Anya turns the conversation to marriage, to Xander's credit he does not lie to her or just tell her what she wants to hear. He attempts to give an honest and forthright answer, but, in keeping with his own confusion on the matter, his answer is not one that will fit with the simple "yes" or "no" that Anya demands. As I've said elsewhere, I believe Xander's actions were wrong, but he's done nothing to merit his own death and I can't see Anya having any moral high ground for this reason.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: humanity -- AgnosticSorcerer, 16:27:49 05/06/02 Mon

The reason Xander decided to not marry Anya was deeply rooted in both the visions granted to him by one of Anyanka's cursed and both his own fear of adulthood, or rather, the fear that he will become the man his father is.

That is why the wedding episode was so heavy on Xander's family, especially his father and mother. The episode continually made reference to Xander's father, his alcoholism, and especially how he treated his wife (Xander's mother).

Xander loves Anya so much that he would forego his own happiness as a couple and the promising life they could live for fear that if he marries her, he will hurt her, like his father emotionally, mentally, and probably physically abuses his mother.

I think the fault of the problem lies within both parties. Xander and Anya are both equally to be blamed for their relationship problems. Yes, it is true that Anya has never been left at the altar and had her heart broken by someone she loved as much as Xander-- but truly, neither has Xander. (Indeed, there was Cordelia, but the love Anya and Xander have cannot be compared to the relationship he had with Cordelia.) Anya is at fault because she cannot and will not even consider that Xander has a good reason for leaving her. All she can see is the pain that he caused her and she wants to make it better by, in effect, reversing the pain by marrying Xander, but he won't comply. Xander is at fault because he cannot admit to Anya his deepest fear. He cannot tell her that he can't marry her because he's afraid he'll hurt her-- that he will become his father. For some reason, he cannot communicate this.

Eh. That's my take on it.

[> [> [> Great post! -- Caroline, 14:33:25 05/03/02 Fri

[> Anya versus Tara -- fresne, 10:44:14 05/03/02 Fri

Well, for it to be truly hypocritical I'd have to consider the situations exactly comparable, which I don't since I personally consider Spander to be no more at that point. He walked out on the wedding. She was dissatisfied with his explanation and walked out of the apartment. She didn't say the words, "Xander I wish to formally dissolve our Spanderness" so in a lawyerly sort of way, yes, I suppose there's some room for quibble, but I equate it to the dissolution of Tillow (okay, I'm lovin' the abuse of Ship names).

When Willow and Tara talk after class, Tara (although she has broken up with Willow), explicitly states that she has not moved on to a new relationship. She was under no obligation to remain faithful to Willow. Anymore than Willow was under an obligation to remain faithful to Woz when she and Tara became involved. Obligation having little to do with the pain of seeing someone you care about move on. Tara hasn't moved on because she still loves Willow, still wants to be with her, still could be with her, sees that Willow is clearly making an effort. Therefore Tara doesn't move on. Instead turns back on the gyre to Willow.

If Tara had gotten drunk and had a fling with that girl, she wouldn't have been unfaithful to her relationship, because that relationship was no more. However, she would have been unfaithful/untrue to her heart of hearts.

So, hypocritical. I don't know. Anya, as a vengeance demon, was drawn to pain. Women's pain. So, it's entirely likely that she inflicted vengeance on men who, as far as they were concerned, had broken up with the woman. Moved on. Weren't unfaithful, because the thing to have faith to no longer existed.

I suppose at the heart of thing is my difficulty with the term. To be hypocritical (in my view and in this case webster's), one must feign to be what one is not, or to feel what one does not feel; a dissimulation, or a concealment of one's real character, disposition, or motives; especially, the assuming of false appearance of virtue or religion; a simulation of goodness.

So, if I believe (which I don't, so don't worry) that women are always right. That women's vengeance is always justified. That men are always wrong and unjustified. Well, I (in my capacity as vengeance demon extra-ordinary) could pretty much smite men for drunken frolics all day long and then in my off time go get drunk and sleep with whatever man I want without being hypocritical. Why? Because I'm being true to my very strange and possibly needing a great deal of therapy beliefs.

For me the real difference is that Tara is mature (can see things from a multitude of perspectives, is empathic, etc.) and Anya isn't.

I like someone's (sorry many posts) idea that Anya never understood that Vengeance demon doesn't equal justice (Halfrek's little FYI aside). Vengeance is about passion, feelings, hurt. Xander hurts, he lashes out. Anya hurts, she lashes out. Spike hurts, he spills secrets (and okay, I also buy the defending Anya perspective. Spike's complex, he gets to have more than one motive). It's vengeance. It's not just. It's not mature. It doesn't consider the long range implications (poor, poor Angel.). It doesn't consider balanced action. Motives. Circumstance. It's the silent scream that caused Halfrek to condemn the Scoobies to life in a house. No matter that the one in pain was also condemned, because it isn't about logic or maturity or growing up.

Which in no way mitigates my sense that that Diego Montoya's quest for vengeance against the 6 fingered man for the death of his father was insanely cool and thus perfectly okay.

[> [> You killed my father. Prepare to die. -- LittleBit, 11:09:08 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> "My name is Diego Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." -- cjl, 11:15:47 05/03/02 Fri

Sniff. That line does it to me every time.

Drew Greenberg really messed with our heads this episode in defining hyprocrisy and vengeance. Anya goes through the entire episode try to wreak vengeance on Xander, and fails miserably. The minute she stops blathering on about vengeance and exploding genitalia, and talks to Spike about her pain, she achieves a vengeance so poetically perfect, it could only come from a scriptwriter.

So--was Anya hypocritical in that first part of the episode? If you asked her at about the 30 minute mark, she would've said no. If you asked her after Xander stormed off into the night, you might not get the same answer.

[> [> [> Diego ? Diego ?! Did you even watch the movie ?! -- Etrangere, 13:29:12 05/03/02 Fri

It's Inigo Montoya !

damnit ! :)

[> [> [> [> Ack! William Goldman is going to KILL ME! -- cjl, 13:46:29 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> OT Thanks -- fresne, 13:46:52 05/03/02 Fri

Thanks, I was wondering what was off, but really wasn't sure what. I had a profound impulse to call him Don Diego Vega, but that would have been just plain wrong. Although, possibly involving revenge on someone's part.

I had the odd experience yesterday that both at work and at home, people began sponteneously quoting Bride (and not just the castle quote, but obscure things). It was very Twilight Zone. Now if I could just get the people at work to start quothing the Buffster.

[> [> [> [> Re: Inigo Montoya -- LittleBit, 19:55:54 05/03/02 Fri

Favorite moment at a Mandy Patinkin concert: at the end after the encores, he left the stage then came back and said "I can't leave you without saying this! My name is Inigo Montoya. [thunderous applause] You killed my father. Prepare to die." One of the best end moments I've witnessed!

[> [> Anya's situation parallels (Hells Bells and Entropy spoilers) -- Vickie, 11:19:26 05/03/02 Fri

I think Anya's situation parallels that of the demon who broke up the wedding. He claimed that he had had a fling with a floozy ("Some hussie I'd been taking around summons you"). From his point of view, there had been no couple and nothing to betray.

Didn't stop him from hurting the "hussie", didn't stop Anya from hurting Xander.

(quote from Psyche, with thanks)

[> [> Hypocrisy and Spankya and Vengeance -- shadowkat, 09:28:01 05/04/02 Sat

I really didn't see Spike and Anya sleeping with one another as vengeance. They didn't know they were being taped, they certainly didn't plan on anyone finding out, all they were doing was seeking comfort. They were in pain, they felt unwanted, unneeded, unattractive, and they were drunk.

Compare this scene to Where The Wild Things Are - where they do discuss seeking vengeance and decide against it. Only at the very beginning of the Entropy scene did they mention vengeance - they stopped discussing it halfway through. Of all the scenes in that episode - that one was not about vengeance - it was about pain, numbing it, trying to understand the why, and trying to move on. Re-watch Where the Wild Things Are - the scene where Anya and Spike are in the Bronze.

ANYA: Yeah. Now everything's complicated.
SPIKE: It's a terrible thing, love is. I been there myself. (Pause) It ended badly.
ANYA: Of course it did. It always does. Seen a thousand relationships. First there's the love, and sex, and then there's nothing left but the vengeance. That's how it works.
SPIKE: You and I ... should just go do the vengeance. Both of us! You eviscerate Xander, and I'll stake Dru. Like a project.
ANYA: I don't know. I just can't. (Sighs)You can go do Dru though.
SPIKE: (nods) Yeah. I will. (Sits still for a moment) Maybe later.
(courtesy Psyche Transcripts)

This is not the discussion they had in Entropy. No where near it.

Sometimes things just happen. We get caught up in the moment and regret it afterwards. That's what happened here. They were drunk (they just finished off a bottle of Jack Daniels)
and they were in pain, they sought comfort. They weren't thinking about the consequences, they weren't thinking about tomorrow or the next hour. That's not vengeance.
There was no intent in that scene. Anya even states it :"i'm only doing this because I'm lonely, and feel unwanted, and you smell so good." (One wonders what vamps
smell like??) not - I want to hurt Xander. At that point she
wants someone to tell her that Xander didn't leave because of her.

Whether what they did is right or wrong? Who are we to judge? I honestly don't know what I would have done under similar circumstances. I can tell you for a fact - that Buffy and Xander have not acted well under similar circumstance - for complete analysis see my respect post.
Xander - went and conjured a harmful love spell, Buffy blew up a den of harmless vamps. Yes - it is ironic that Anya became a vengeance demon cursing someone who got drunk and slept with someone else - but it is hardly hypocritical.
If anything - i think Anya would not have cursed Olaf now, anymore than she allowed Spike to finish his wish statement.

In regards to Spike - he had several reasons for stating what his relationship with Buffy to Xander and it was so muffled and quick, I didn't even hear it the first time. 1. total and complete humilation and pain 2. Defending Anya 3. Disgust with Buffy
4. Disgust with himself for letting all of it continue to go on (he wanted to die in that scene - he would have allowed Xander to kill him) 5. And a little hope that once the secret was out - things might get better. 6. Possibly the outside hope she really would kill him for it.
I have to say - I understand Spike and anya's point of view better because well it's closer to my own experience.

But let's look at the other two - Buffy, she's reeling.
Her emotions are totally confused, shame, fear, pain, want,
it's endless. The fact she raced over there to save him was telling. I don't think she did it to protect Anya or keep Xander from doing something he'll regret. Although the thought crossed my mind. Just as did her comment "you moved on quick" - made me think at first she was referring to Anya, show's how far I was in Xander's pov. I did feel for Xander - he hates vamps for good reason - he also has a boy's view of the world - black and white, clear cut, and there's a monster inside him he is struggling with. Sometimes I think Xander projects what he despises most about himself on to Spike (I'm wondering if the people who identify so closely with Xander may be doing the same thing? Not sure. But it would be interesting psychologically) Spike is hard for Xander to deal with in a different way than Angel. Spike is "in Xander's mind" the
the horrible thing Xander doesn't want to be, the loser.
And the writers have made both xander and spike at different times outcasts - both have the best snarky one liners and smart alec remarks. So there's a lot more going on between Spike and Xander than jealousy. Xander hates himself right now. He wants to be "pushing up the daisies".
And in typical Xander fashion he is projecting all that self hate onto a scape-goat - Spike. Buffy has been doing the same thing. It's human - we all do it. But it does have consequences.

So I don't really see any bad guys here. Just a lot of people in tremendous pain. As OM pointed out - entropy.
Things fall apart and it's so hard to build them up again.

Hope this made sense.

[> [> [> & reason #7 -- anom, 23:48:01 05/04/02 Sat

"In regards to Spike - he had several reasons for stating what his relationship with Buffy to Xander...(reasons 1- 6)."

I think there was 1 more, which maybe should go 1st: He. Was. Drunk. For all his threats to tell the others what Buffy had been doing w/him, I think this was not at all how'd he'd thought of doing it. I have the strong impression that if he'd been sober he wouldn't have said it. At least not then.

[> [> "Spander"? ;) -- Isabel, 21:31:30 05/04/02 Sat

"...I personally consider Spander to be no more at that point."

Hmm. Isn't Spander a mix of Spike and Xander? I don't seem to remember them getting involved in that way. Maybe that's why Xander was so upset. ;)

I'm just playing with you, fresne. I know you meant Xander and Anya. (Ander/Xanya?) They don't flow very well, do they?

It's late and I'm chuckling now. ;)

[> Re: Anya in 'Entropy' (SPOILERS) -- Robert, 11:30:57 05/03/02 Fri

>> "Hypocrite! "


>> "What did you expect?' What do people think?"

I think "hypocrite" is way too harsh a word to be using at this point. For all of Anyanka's thousand years of experience, she had no empathy for the men whom she smote. In this episode, she just gained a lifetime of experience. Will she now view such men with a little more compassion? We shall see.

[> Re: Hypocrite! Anya in 'Entropy' -- anom, 16:34:13 05/03/02 Fri

I think Anya never had the concept as a vengeance demon that someone could hurt someone else without meaning to. She always did it on purpose, so how could she understand that Xander hadn't? ...until, of course, she did it herself.

[> Hopefully Not A Spoiler -- Non-Hostile Seventeen, 18:24:10 05/05/02 Sun

All I'm going to say is that there better not be a scene next week where Anya yells at Xander," WE WERE ON A BREAK!!" a la Ross and Rachel on Friends. =)

*Learning to Steer with Emphatic Gestures* - Thoughts on *Entropy* (***Spoilers***) -- OnM, 07:36:04 05/03/02 Fri

Many older human cultures, and very likely even some contemporary ones, worship the sun as a god. And
why shouldn’t they?

Without the sun, this warm, wet jewel of a planet would be a cold, dry and pretty much dead carbonaceous
rock floating in the uncaring vacuum of space. The closest star in the heavens radiates visible light and
infrared heat and so makes our existence literally possible. It also copiously radiates X-rays, short
ultraviolet and other energy forms which are not so good for us, and I can’t fail to mention those
annoying sunspots and solar flares that are regularly trying to fry the solar cells of our satellites.

But does the sun care? No, not really. It’s just a great big nuclear furnace, busily but indifferently stripping
the raw energy out of violently compressed atomic nuclei and spewing it out into emptiness. Whether our
little world happens to be here or not is of absolutely no consequence. As gods go, it’s a pretty primal one,
all bright fire and no compassion, and at some time in the future it too will die, god or no. Part of the
spiritual balance for the sun’s insensibility to us is that neither does it require our fealty in order to present
it’s gift. It lives, it radiates, it dies. Another sun is born elsewhere in the universe.

And so we move on to entropy, described technically as the inherent tendency of thermal energy
systems to move from a higher state of excitation to a lower state of excitation, perhaps even to finally
dissipate into the ultimate inactivity of absolute zero (see space, vacuum, above). Yes, this is a depressing
thought, but it doesn’t have to be, because there is an out. The sun will eventually burn out and fade away,
but that won’t happen for a few million years yet. In the meantime, we have the opportunity to make the
best of the time we have been granted, and follow the concept of reversing the natural disorder of the
universe-- or our microcosmic portion of it-- by putting energy back into the system.

This week’s episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is all about putting energy back into the system,
although the process of same is not yet complete, it is only in the early stages of recognizing the need to do
so. But there is progress, and that’s one step closer to becoming brighter than the fire. Those who have
voiced concerns about the darkness of season six, and the ‘implosions’ of the beloved characters that have
so captivated us in the past should be aware that critical events are about to transpire.

(Even though I am moderately spoiled for about half of the upcoming month, I don’t really have to rely on
any spoiler info to tell me that a lot of what I predicted last fall as to where we were going to end up by
No. 22 is starting to come to pass. If you are concerned about being spoiled, don’t be, I’m not going to
give anything specific away-- any speculation I offer will be exactly that, and will be based on what I see as
logical extensions of past events, not any future ‘certainties’).

I know, there was a wee bit of meandering in the midway, but once again, I wholeheartedly redeclare my
previous contention as to this story arc evolving into one of the very best Buffy seasons ever. This week’s
episode continues to showcase the amazing writing, directing, acting and production skills that made
Normal Again and Hell’s Bells so outstanding.

This was a brilliant episode, 8.0 out of 10 on first viewing and climing steadily towards 8.8 or even 9.0 on
repeated viewings. The major question now being pondered by your humble scribe is how to decide on
just where to start?

Everybody was simply on in this ep, and the writing work by Drew Greenberg and direction by
James Contner sparkled. Acting work by everyone in the cast was first-rate, with the subtlety and nuance
of their craft made even more conspicuous by the sparse number of ‘big action’ scenes that could
otherwise act as a distraction. The action scenes that were present were completely logical and integral to
the plot advancement, both locally and globally, and nothing ever looked cheesy or gratuitous.
Nonetheless, while the action elements of BtVS may be fun, it is always the human drama that keeps me
obsessively coming back for more, and this story was brimming with humanity. Spiritual modalities are in
flux-- whether entropy prevails or energy is successfully restored into the system, only time will tell.

The beginning of the resolution of the Spike/Buffy arc is in play. As I predicted earlier in the season, Tara
and Willow are getting back together. The geek chorus is planning something big, and look for Warren to
become the Bad-- he’s been inexorably building up to it since last fall. The original ‘chorus’ is devolving
into a duo as the weak-minded Andrew is becoming an ever greater sycophant under Warren’s pervasive
amoral influences, and Jonathan’s continuing background discordance reveals that he is obviously plotting
how to climb back out of the moral abyss he’s foolishly gotten himself into. Xander and Anya seem closer
to absolute zero than ever before, but all is not as it appears. After playing an extended game of hide and
seek with the new day, Dawn has finally appeared above the horizon, and this small human sun yields a
light and heat not lacking in compassion.

The degrees of self-awareness within each character, and the ‘energy states’ of their relationships among
one another have been following a sort of bell curve over the course of the season. I’ve been fascinated to
notice how S6 has so carefully drawn out elements of all of the past seasons of the show and melded them
together with increasing solidity. The result is a child- season that is new, freshly born if you will, but
clearly composed of the DNA of the parent seasons. The helix of Buffyverse history is an evolved
complexity, as is our own biological genetic spiral-- so benumbingly convoluted that it’s a wonder that it
works at all, let alone can give birth to a functional new organism. It’s also really no wonder that Buffy
and her friends have had to learn ‘life lessons’ over and over again-- solutions gathered through insight or
experience remain valid only until a new variation on existence emerges from the complexity. Life is indeed
serial, as least as far as any one individual is concerned. Parallels exist only in our relationships to/among
others, we ultimately learn sequentially as long as our minds and souls inhabit a singular consciousness.

Now partly serial/linear and later partly parallel/cubical (Or is it the other way around? Damn-- maybe it’s
actually a hypercube ;-), here are my current thoughts on the characters, where they are and seem to be


This was really Anya’s show. Yes, the other characters had important moments too, but mostly events
revolve around Anya and her pain and her failure to find a satisfying way to deal with it. Logically, given
Anya’s past, she begins dealing with hurt in the same way that she found satisfying before. But things don’t
work out as planned-- life as a demon was simple, life as a human is not, and Anya’s mind is trying
desperately to focus on simplicity.

The various scenes where Anya is trying to convince Buffy, Dawn, Willow and Tara to aid her in ‘cursing’
Xander are cunningly edited-- both visually and audibly-- to flow as if they were a single continuous
conversation instead of the actual reality of multiple interactions. This manages to capture Anya’s state of
mind perfectly. To her, there is only one single, pointed focus, the desire to enact retribution for Xander’s
heartbreaking betrayal. To the other Scoobies, however, he is still Xander, their friend, and so the focus is
on their individual relationships to him. Their views are plural/parallel, Anya’s views are singular/serial.

Buffy, Willow, Tara and Dawn have come to understand and internalize, at least to some degree, that a
person can be both victim and victimizer at different points in their life. Anya, for all of the humanization
she has achieved (regained?) over the last several years, still largely retains the more dipolar viewpoint
consistant with her former demon personality. All she understands is that she hurts, and her solution
to dealing with hurt involves hurting the perpetrator in return. What she discovers during the course of the
show is that righteousness has it’s limitations as regards ultimate satisfaction, and that it’s hard to be
righteous when you have a sudden, piercing awareness of having ‘sinned’ yourself. The breakthrough event
here is that Anya has never really grokked the concept that vengeance isn’t automatically
synonymous with justice, and now this new awareness is becoming manifest. Real justice builds on
a foundation of empathy, the ability to consider one’s own weaknesses in terms of behavior, and only then
can one provide either retribution or forgiveness in due proportion. Her forthrightness may be a virtue, as
Spike accurately perceives, but forthright feelings can’t always be directly morphed into actions, or
someone else may be disproportionally hurt without benefit of any sense of real justice to balance the scale.

It is very clear that, heartbreak or no, Anya still passionately loves Xander. This situation is apparently
different than the one that started her career as a vengeance demon, which if I recall correctly, has never
been mentioned as a specific historical (Buffyverse) instance to date. (It’s been alluded to, but I
don’t believe that Anya previously told anyone that she began her vengeance career because of
being hurt or betrayed by a lover about 1000 years ago). Anya is a ‘modern’ woman, now, and this brings
up a dilemma which she is only beginning to address. (Halfek brings this subject up when she uses the
contemporary catch-phrase ‘take back the night’, although her intent is entirely different.) Whatever else
you can state about man’s inhumanity to man (or woman), humanity as a planetary collective is generally
not as vicious and revenge-motivated as it was centuries ago. People who have been taught to understand
not only their own motivations, but the reasons behind those motivations tend to become less
judgmental, and concern themselves not only with the deed, but the intent behind the deed. And intent
makes all the difference.

Many BtVS viewers have expressed concerns that the human Anya has never shown any genuine regret for
her actions as a demon, many of which to a human sense of justice would clearly be excessively cruel. This
is finally about to change, in my opinion. Regrets for the level of suffering one has caused for others are
hard to come by unless one has an inklling of what real pain is actually like. In demonic form, Anya
was close to invulnerable, and essentially immortal. Pain is something that she measured out, not
experienced personally. The table has turned, and Anya is not a fool. This is a big step forward, and I
speculate that by season’s end, Xander and Anya will be, if not back together, at least headed in that
direction. At the episode’s beginning, the likelihood of this eventuality actually occurring was pretty much
up to Anya. At episode’s end, whether that happens or not is pretty much up to Xander. (Pivot...)


Ah, Xander. Means well, but still screws up regularly. Is it reasonable to try to patch things up with Anya?
Maybe not, but then ‘a fellow’s gotta try’. There is little question that he loves Anya, but when the crunch
time came in Hell’s Bells, he yielded to his insecurities instead of trusting in his own basic sense of
decency-- it’s obvious to everyone but Xander that he is not his father. But is his current course of action
correct, or is Buffy’s advice to lay low for a while until things cool down a preferable path to follow?

As usual, ME has taken pains to spread the fault around. Xander made a poor choice but an
understandable one in Hell’s Bells. In Entropy, Anya makes a similarly poor but
understandable choice in allowing Spike to have sex with her, and then loses the one advantage she
previously laid claim to, the sense of righteousness that came with being the clearly wronged party. It is
interesting that Xander reserves the main thrust of his wrath for Spike, even thought it is rapidly obvious
from the camera feed (and shortly confirmed upon reaching the Magic Box) that Anya is consenting to the
tryst. Xander feared that he would one day hate Anya so much that he could murder her in a fit of rage, but
when confronted with an actual current reality that involves her betrayal of him, can only assault her with
words. The mirroring of the situation between them suggests that Xander was inadvertantly correct when
he wanted to postpone the marriage, although not for the reasons that he thought he understood. Xander is
still much too insecure, but Anya is still much too arrogant. Both of them are self-involved, just in opposite
ways. Each individual needs to change, but in opposite directions. Until this occurs, neither one will be
‘grown up’ enough to enter into a lifetime commitment.


Speaking of ‘grown up’, I was very pleasantly surprised to see Dawn finally exhibit some consistent degree
of maturity over the course of an entire day. (Maybe Buffy should have tried killing her earlier-- nah, just
kidding! Seriously, I am still hoping that someone will come up with a decent explanation of why it
took this long. Some degree of personality flip-flopping is OK, what with being part tiny-human-new-soul
and part green-energy apocalypse-bringer and all, but fer cryin’ out loud, how many times does your
sister have to save your life before you figure out she loves you? Huh? Huh?

What was best to see in this episode was how Dawn finally returned a bit of the favor by being
understanding and sympathetic when Buffy’s ‘dark secret’ is finally brought into the light. (Great little
drop-in line too-- ‘I get that’. I am my sister, my sister is me.) I was wondering how the writers
would handle this scene when it finally occurred, having been set up with the off-hand admission by angry
psycho-Buffy in Normal Again before dragging Dawn down to the basement. I also appeciated how
Dawn not only doesn’t completely freak upon seeing Spike and Anya going at it in on-camera in the Magic
Box, but then looks over at Buffy and immediately figures out that some things she heard her sister say
while in the grip of the demon-poison weren’t hallucinations after all.

Another surprise (?) revelation was that Dawn harbors a desire to go patrolling with Buffy. While I
expected (and had confirmed) that Buffy would emphatically nix the idea, I don’t think that this is the last
time the subject will come up. Dawn has a streak of wildness in her that Buffy possesses also but keeps
more deeply submerged. Other than in Band Candy, we have never had much opportunity to see a
similar characteristic display in Joyce, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Perhaps this is the link that draws Spike
to his obsession with all three of the Summers’ women. (Spike, re intimacy with Buffy: She was so...
raw. I’ve never felt anything like it.

I would be interested to hear comments from anyone else who noticed Dawn’s body language and hair
style/color as she and Buffy were walking in downtown Sunnydale and thought ‘young Faith, sans
Is this what Faith would have been like if she had someone like Buffy (or Joyce) at this
formative stage? Is a metaphor behind Dawn’s shoplifting an allusion to want, take, have? Or is
Buffy the cosmic fulcrum with Faith on the ‘dark’ side and Dawn on the ‘light’. Maybe the ‘Slayer Trinity’
I speculated on last summer isn’t literal, but metaphorical. Hummm... Buffy meets Riley. Buffy and Riley
fall in and then make love. Faith turns to the dark side, but Dawn appears in a mystical fashion. Riley sleeps
with Faith, thinking that she’s Buffy. Buffy slowly turns away from Riley, but Faith is slowly set on a path
to redemption. Joyce dies, now Buffy is the mother and Dawn is the child. Riley and Faith are the
godparents? Buffy reaches the pinnacle of Slayer heroism, dies literally and is literally reborn. Faith
reaches the nadir of Slayer iniquity, repents of her deeds, turns herself in, goes to prison and is figuratively
reborn. In the middle of everything is Dawn.

Damn those writers. Now look what they’ve made me do... (Pivot...)

Anywho, as I’ve speculated before, I really think that Joss is beginning to plant the first seeds of having
Dawn become a Slayer, a thought which would certainly horrify Buffy, as it must have done to Joyce when
she finally discovered the truth about her daughter and denial was no longer an option. Whether it will
happen this season or not, I don’t know, but I lean towards next season, and also assume that there will be
a Faith arc that surrounds it.


Now to Buffy. I don’t know whether to curse or give hearty best regards to the past posters who have
clued me in to the metaphorical significance of Buffy’s hairstyles (you noticed I’m even starting to apply
the methodology to Dawn now-- sheesh...) but the combination of the current short ‘do and the tie-back,
punctuated with leather jacket and a more subdued rendering of her overall facial expressions to go along
with her ‘old eyes’ (thanks for that one, fresne!) has really placed Buffy more in adult/parent mode visually
than I can recall anytime prior in this season or before. We are seeing the early signs of a steadily growing
self-confidence newly present in our heroine. Buffy is truly becoming ‘normal again’, and shows it
throughout this episode-- with Dawn, with Anya, with Xander, even with Spike. I loved the the part of the
opening scene where she points out-- quite proudly-- that her friends care so much for her that they
immediately let slide her aberrant attempt to kill them, and then invites Spike to tell about their ‘secret’ if
he wants to so badly. She also re-iterated the ‘because I don’t love you’ without any particular
anger or guile, just a simple statement of fact-- Buffy is finally sure of herself as to why Spike can’t be a
part of her sex life, no matter the passion it stirs in her.

The parent thing is clicking also. The scene with Dawn at breakfast could just as easily been scripted as a
scene between Buffy and Joyce a few years back. Perhaps I can answer my own earlier question about
Dawn’s personality flips by reasoning that since monk-wise Dawn=Buffy/Buffy=Dawn, that the social
instability in Dawn was a psychic reflection of Buffy’s own insecurities and difficulty in stepping up to the
demands of adulthood. Isn’t this Xander’s greatest fear, that he would become like his parents? Buffy’s
greatest fear at this point is that she will never be like her mother. Xander wigs out on his father’s
negativity and bolts his marriage to Anya. Buffy wigs out on her mother’s positive qualities and retreats
from Dawn. Dawn in turn reflects the vibe from her sister, ergo, stealing, whining, mood swings. Buffy
learns from her mother in the Asylumverse that what made Joyce such a great parent ultimately had
nothing to do with the workaday details of running the houshold, taking care of the financial needs and so
on, but far more simply that a) she loves her child and b) has absolute faith in her child’s inner
strengths as her own person.
Buffy now realizes that this is the way she must relate to Dawn, and thus
the subconscious awareness is made into conscious reality. Buffy groks.


Spike was never more charming and at the same time never more potentially dangerous than in this
episode. The charming part is obvious-- his interactions with Anya at the Magic Box are a redemptionista’s
dream come true. As I said near the beginning of the review, everyone was ‘on’ this week, and no one was
more ‘on’ than Marsters. I had been spoiled as to this scene occurring, and wondered how it was going to
be belivable, given Spike’s devotion to Buffy and, angry/hurt or not, Anya’s devotion to Xander. These are
betrayals, no matter how you look at it, and yet the skillful acting by both Marsters and Caulfield coupled
with the equally inspired writing pulled it off-- you now understood how it could happen. Energy into the

The only problem is, Spike has been forced into awareness that Buffy isn’t kidding this time-- she really,
truly isn’t interested in picking up where she and Spike left off. Spike knows this early on in the scene
where he’s ‘helping’ her in the fight with the two vamps, but he refuses to give up. Buffy doesn’t back
down. Turned away, Spike seeks out comfort or numbness, whatever works, and for a brief moment, what
works is some passion with Anya.

But Anya doesn’t love him either, and while he doesn’t remotely fault her for this-- in fact, his look at her
as they ‘sober up’ and begin to go their seperate ways after the tryst shows that he respects her and that his
words before weren’t just a ‘come-on’-- he also gets only a few minutes of satisfaction before the truth
slams home.

Xander appears, and tries to kill him-- for real, this time. Then Buffy shows up, and stops Xander in
mid-staking. Xander, denied a catharsis with Spike, shifts his anger to Anya, but he can’t attack her
physically, since he loves her. The argument ensues, but now the balance in favor of Anya is gone. He has
betrayed her, she has betrayed him. Neither betrayal was callously indifferent-- each had their
understandable, if not excusable, reasons in the frozen instant of the moment. None of this helps anyone--
two wrongs don’t make a right, they only make for two even more miserable people.

Then Spike drops the bomb-- almost offhandedly-- but there is nothing offhand about it. Spike does have a
sense of timing, as long as he’s ‘in the moment’ and not thinking too much. He is still clinging passionately
to his denial, while subconsciously realizing that he has lost Buffy, that the very best he can now
hope for is that they could become just ‘co-workers’-- and that simply isn’t enough. He has touched part of
her essence, even if just for a few hours, and now he can’t give up that ‘rawness’. The sex with Anya
hasn’t ‘numbed’ him, it’s brought his feelings into a focus of absolute, sober clarity. So he gambles
everything-- double or nothing-- and plays the only remaining card he possesses. He reveals the
Spike/Buffy relationship secret to Buffy’s friends, and waits to see if the hand plays the way he hopes. He
cuts the deck-- and loses. Buffy merely slightly glares at him, with more sadness than contempt or anger--
then accepts that everyone will know the truth, and will judge or judge not. And walks away.

Spike tried to cover, makes the remark to Anya about ‘Xander buggering up everything’. He starts to
wish-- then Anya stops him. Anya’s lust for vengeance has left her empty, at absolute zero. Spike’s final
play has brought him to the same point. Where will each go from here? As energy gets put back into the
system, will it be negative, or positive energy? For Anya, I’m betting it will be positive, at least in the end.
For Spike? We shall see.

And lastly,

Tara & Willow:

Yes, that’s two characters, but for this ep they may as well have been one. Other than when Willow is
helping Buffy track down the hidden cameras, there is mostly ‘Tillow’ to be dealt with.

As I’ve mentioned before, I generally try to avoid doing more than skimming the board while I’m in the
process of writing these reviews, so as to keep my thoughts as much my own as possible. One thread I did
persue just a little involved whether or not Tara did the right thing by resuming physical intimacy with
Willow so soon, especially considering that Willow may still not understand that her ‘magic addiction’ is
not the real problem, it was the fact that she grossly abused Tara not once, but twice, by altering her
memories. I have no dispute with the facts here-- Willow may still be in some denial as to how much harm
she caused to her lover with these transgressions, but I have to admit that I adored the way Tara presented
all the coolly logical, dispassionate reasons standing in the way of resuming the relationship, and then very
humanly gave in to her love for Willow and asked ‘if you could just be kissing me now’.

Tara’s greatest quality is her ability to balance forgiveness with a demand for responsibility. She had the
personal strength to walk away from the relationship when it became painfully apparent that Willow wasn’t
getting the message. Willow has since made some significant strides towards bettering her behavior, and I
think Tara is willing to accept that for now. At some point, one partner has to show the desire for real
change, not because of coercion but by free will alone. Willow may be at the point where she will soon put
enough energy into the system to naturally overcome her ‘entropy’. Tara is contributing part of that
energy, perhaps the bulk of it at the moment. In a way, this is a model for Xander and Anya-- each will
need to expect some honest improvement from the other, and then at some juncture put the past behind
them and love each other-- life is too short to do otherwise.

OK, a few final little tidbits to wrap up with:

* Warren’s mental melding of sex and violence continues-- In the graveyard chase scene that opens the ep,
the camera is exactly positioned to show the large, rigid wooden stake affixed to the front of Warren’s
ATV’s as if it is Warren’s penis. This same angle is repeated on other shots of Warren in the ATV. Also,
Andrew is shown in a similar fashion, logical since Andrew now has become Darth Vader to Warren’s
Emperor. Jonathan’s wooden stake is similar, but is shown somewhat less perfectly aligned. Later on in the
‘lair’ Warren is directing insulting remarks toward Jonathan, and refers to the upcoming scheme in terms of
a subjugating sexual conquest. I’m starting to feel much greater sympathy towards Jonathan (yeah,
Warren, I know, that’s a ‘weakness’) and much greater hatred of Warren. This guy was really sleazy and
bent to start with, now he’s making the vampires look benevolent by comparison. Creating death has
become primo entertainment for him, as opposed to Buffy just doing her job out of necessity.

* After the disrupted chase, Warren and his droogs hang back behind the wall of the cemetery, while Buffy
stands in front of a fountain-- symbolic of life.

* By the way, wasn’t ‘Short Round’ one of the good guys? Oh, maybe that was Warren’s point.

* On a much lighter side, there’s that doggone cheese again!: A poster for ‘The String Cheese
Incident’ is perfectly placed behind Willow and Tara when they have their conversation in the hall of USC

* Perhaps in answer to the ‘Accu-Vue’ camera plug right before the next ep promo this week and last, I
noticed that very conscipuous efforts were made to hide various product ID’s
during this show. Note the chair back post repeatedly blocking the view of the Apple logo on Will’s
Macintosh, the bottle of Jack Daniels(?) Anya places on the counter of the Magic Box with the label turned
to the side, and the ‘International House of Something’ line in the Dawn/Buffy breakfast scene.
OK, this is just so cool!. (Thanks one more time for instilling that concept, Slain!)

* Some other technical observations-- the film and sound editing work in Entropy was just
absolutely superb-- I really am hard pressed to remember anything as impressive since prior year’s
Forever and Fool for Love. Also, perfect use of music, everywhere. Really. Everywhere.
Perfect. (Jeez...) Will the Alias production team please watch Buffy for a few
weeks to see how you should be using your music?

* Anya always dressed in red. Buffy wearing more white than black.

* Evil eye, indeed-- the camera hidden in the skull at the Magic Box.

* Dawn and the ‘pocket of goldfish-- didn’t work’ line.

* Buffy regarding garden gnomes-- ‘I would have crawled out of my grave sooner’. Oh yeah, she’s back.

What more can I say? Well, I could always watch the ep again. I’m sure I’ll find something.


Oh, wow, guess I’ll go put some energy into the VCR ... ;- )


[> BTW, as a public service, I'm proposing a new board acronym. ;-) -- OnM, 07:56:53 05/03/02 Fri

Which could be utilized as needed by posters such as Shadowkat, Age or myself.

The acronym is: CutPR

Which stands in for Crank up the Printer, Rufus



[> [> Make that "CutPRaM" - I love your reviews! -- Marie, 08:31:32 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> How about DFAT - Don't Forget to Add Toner? Great review btw!! -- ponygirl, 10:45:45 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> Or CuPRaMaS! or just CuPR for short... :-) -- Solitude1056, 12:21:57 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> Yeah, I like that. 'CuPR' (kyew-per or coo-per) it is! ... ;-) -- OnM, 21:57:58 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Adjusting TTMQ setting up another notch, plus (bonus!!) explanation for ATPo newbies. -- OnM, 15:54:44 05/04/02 Sat

Now presenting clear evidence that I can never fail to 'take a nice simple melody and drive it right into the ground' (Leo Kottke) I've decided that the acronym should indeed be 'CuPR', it should be pronounced, 'kyew-per', and that the first 'C' can stand for either 'Crank' or 'Cue'. Not wishing to be the intellectual equivalent of the Seinfeldian Soup Nazi, anyone who disagrees is perfectly welcome to invent their own damn acronym pronounce it any way they like. ;- )

Being an audiophile, however, I would like to suggest that the 'cue' word is a good choice, because it generically refers to the process of 'starting something up', such as in 'cuing a record, tape, CD, DVD, what have ya.

So, why not 'cue' your printer (Rufus)? (Also, anyone who has been around computers for any length of time knows that there are things like 'printer queues' (sp?) or 'job queues' for the processor to handle, etc.

To newbies-- the joke involved in this is that I have a tendency to post ludicrously long essays and such, and always have, and one of the other board elders, Rufus, has this habit of printing them out and then accusing me of being a tree-killer or something of similar general evilness. ;-)

So that's the background. There may also be cats involved, but that a post for another time.


[> [> LMAO! Yep...i did CutPR on this one...I admit it -- shadowkat, 18:14:16 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> I had to do both.......crank and add toner.......:):):) -- Rufus, 21:14:55 05/03/02 Fri

[> Comments and a question -- GreatRewards, 08:02:33 05/03/02 Fri

I, too, noticed the obvious attempt to hide "brand names", though I really didn't think about it in those terms until reading your post. One other "hiding" you didn't mention was Xander's beer bottle. Though obviously meant to be a Budweiser, the label was turned down so we cound not see it.

And now for my question: "grokked"????

[> [> "Grok" -- from Heinlein's novel Stranger in a Strange Land; means "to understand at a deep level" -- Sophist, 08:28:46 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> Uh-oh! A Heinlein virgin! -- Rob, 08:31:34 05/03/02 Fri

"Grok" is a term, penned by the great sci-fi author, Robert Heinlein, in his book, "Stranger in a Strange Land." There's a whole long story surrounding the word, but, in essence "to grok" something is to reach the highest level of understanding it, to the point where you and the thing you are grokking, almost become one being. It could be called an "epiphany," also, but it's even deeper than that.


[> [> one Logo made it front and center though -- neaux, 09:28:27 05/03/02 Fri

Dawn and Buffy pass that NICE BIG OLD NAVY store if i remember correctly...

[> If you can't hear very well, it's b/c all sounds are being drowned out by my thunderous applause! -- Rob, 08:24:41 05/03/02 Fri

Brilliant, OnM...Just brilliant essay.

And nice-answering-your-own-question back there re: Dawn- acting-mature and more in-balance now that Buffy is more in- balance.

I am so glad to see that those of us here at the board who predicted that the title, "Normal Again," was not ironic-- that this experience really would be the thing to really restore our Buffy back to us--were correct. Buffy is, truly, finally back.

Of course, I agree with you about the sixth season. I find what is most fascinating about it is its hidden complexity. Someone could watch thinking, "Where are they going with this?" And then it becomes clear. It's truly like variations on a piece of classical music, as themes and links and story arcs weave in and out. Looking back on the whole season now, you can see definite patterns, and themes from previous seasons being respun. What I think is its biggest strength is that, by this point, in the sixth year, the characters are so well-cemented and fully three-dimensional that a season can be made where the characters drive the plot rather than the other way around. Interestingly, that annoying critic from EW, said that was the season's biggest weakness--characters defining plot, rather than the other way around. Funny, I see that as a sign of great depth, maturity, and the best kind of writing.

Anyway, I loved your essay, as I said before. The character analyses are dead-on, I think, especially about Anya. The only thing I'd disagree with you about is that I think Caulfield was the best actress in an all-round superb episode, while you thought it was Marsters. But that's just a tiny little thing.

I am so ecstatic to see "Buffy" being so fantastic. We've so far had three superb episodes in a row..."Hell's Bells," "Normal Again," and now, "Entropy." And that is where this season is comparable to the others....the last batch of episodes of the year is always the best, the most brilliant, and intense. I truly can't wait to see what the next few eps have in store for us...


[> [> Thanks, Rob. I do what I can. ;-) ... As regards Buffy being 'back'... -- OnM, 08:43:01 05/03/02 Fri

Literally the last minute here before work-time, but I do want to point out that Buffy isn't necessarily going to have smooth sailing from now on, but at least she's regained her focus and purpose, and that's what I mean by 'back'.

See you guys again tonight!

[> [> [> "buffy being 'back'..." -- anom, 12:18:08 05/03/02 Fri

Something about Buffy's appearance in this ep--a seriousness in the eyes & even the hairstyle--made her look much more grounded. As opposed to undergrounded, or heaven'ed--I think she's finally started to integrate those 2 things & be able to hold her ground in the middle. This is why she's both able to calmly tell Spike she won't be with him any more & able to be there for Dawn. All season, Buffy had tried to escape in all sorts of directions--to (& possibly off) the tower, to Sweet's "kingdom below," to a dance that would have killed her, to forgetfulness, to Giles (in the sense of handing her responsibilities off to him), to invisibility, to Spike's darkness, to guilt & jail, to real or imagined insanity. (I'm not saying all of these were by choice, but escape would still have been the effect.) We can now see that her decision at the end of Normal Again to be in the Sunnydale-verse was truly a turning point: Buffy is here in Entropy in a way she wasn't in earlier episodes. She really is back.

[> Anya and betrayal -- Sophist, 08:26:05 05/03/02 Fri

Liked your post a lot. Two quick points.

First, you said:

This situation is apparently
different than the one that started her career as a vengeance demon, which if I recall correctly, has never been mentioned as a specific historical (Buffyverse) instance to date. (It’s been alluded to, but I
don’t believe that Anya previously told anyone that she began her vengeance career because of
being hurt or betrayed by a lover about 1000 years ago).

Here's the scene from Triangle:

XANDER: You dated him?
BUFFY: You dated a troll?
WILLOW: And we're what, surprised by this?
ANYA: Well, he wasn't a troll then! You know, he was just a big dumb guy, and ... well, you know, he cheated on me and I made him into a troll, which by the way is... (embarrassed) how I got the ... job as a vengeance demon.

Second, you say a couple of times that Anya "cheated" on Xander by having sex with Spike. I think it's not that simple. There's only cheating if they are a couple. When Xander walked out on the wedding and disappeared (we don't know for how long), their days as a couple ended. Now, they may very well get back together in the future. They both want to in some way, but they haven't yet agreed on the terms of their relationship. Until they do, I can't see the tryst (loved fresne's reference to triste in this context) as any kind of betrayal.

[> [> OK, thanks for the first point-- I had forgotten that. As to the second-- I'll respond tonight! -- OnM, 08:46:44 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> Well, maybe not tonight... tomorrow OK? -- OnM, 22:01:05 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> Re: Anya and betrayal -- Cactus Watcher, 09:05:22 05/03/02 Fri

However lame it may have been, Xander made the attempt to tell Anya his feelings toward her had not changed. She in turn only expressed generalized anger with him, not specifically 'get my life and stay out.' Under those conditions, a guy tends to think there is still a chance, no matter how wrong he may be. Yes, it was a 'betrayal' every bit as much as the one Riley commited. Riley had a pretty good idea that it was over between him and Buffy, but hoped it wasn't true. When it happened, it was a shock to Buffy. Anya at least for the moment thought it was over. Xander didn't. Just because one person knows its over doesn't mean the other isn't still firmly commited, and can't be 'betrayed.'

[> [> [> Dislexia strikes again! That should be 'get out of my life and stay out..' Sorry! -- CW, 09:15:22 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> Sorry, don't agree with your definition of betrayal -- Vickie, 09:54:56 05/03/02 Fri

If Xander cannot get the message that he has broken the relationship and that they are not a couple, that's his problem.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

[> [> [> [> Re: Sorry, don't agree with your definition of betrayal -- alcibiades, 10:10:24 05/03/02 Fri

Just because Xander is in denial land -- and even his friends Willow and Buffy have tried gently, too gently IMO, to point this point to him, doesn't mean that Anya has to suit her actions to him. He feels betrayed. On reflection he might realize he has no grounds for it.

[> [> [> [> That's why I put betrayal in quotes. -- CW, 10:39:40 05/03/02 Fri

I don't necessarily subscribe to that definition either. Pretty much agree with what alcibiades said about the situation.

But, in real world terms, it is an ENORMOUS mistake for anyone in a failing relationship to assume the other should know it's over. Sometimes it's a misunderstanding, sometimes bullheadedness or even emotional or mental problems on the part of the person who doesn't get it. Whatever, put yourself in the place of the person who doesn't get it (something we should all try to do), and what can you call what happened besides 'betrayal?'

[> [> [> [> Re: Sorry, don't agree with your definition of betrayal -- LadyStarlight, 13:53:46 05/03/02 Fri

IMHO, just because Xander didn't feel 100% certain about marrying Anya in HB, doesn't mean that he isn't still in love with her and committed to her.

However, I don't feel that Anya was 'cheating' on him. If Spanya had happened before the wedding, that would have been cheating. This was comfort sex, I'm still desirable sex, you smell really good sex.

[> [> Re: Anya and betrayal -- Robert, 11:22:16 05/03/02 Fri

>> "I think it's not that simple. There's only cheating if they are a couple."

It's never that simple, but Anya's subsequent actions do support the OnM's contention that Anya sullied her position as the righteous victim. Whether Buffy and the rest of the gang think it was cheating is irrelevant. What does Anya and Xander believe? Xander certainly sees it as punishment for leaving Anya alone at the altar. Xander's opinion wouldn't matter either, if Anya didn't still feel something for him. When Anya declined to accept Spike's wish, I believe she was showing that she now perceives her own actions as something other than innocent. She felt Xander's suffering.

This is not a episode or a season in which we can judge the good from the bad, the righteous from the evil. With the possible exception of Warren and Tara, everyone has screwed up and everyone has good redeeming qualities.

[> [> [> Fair points -- Sophist, 13:02:18 05/03/02 Fri

I might phrase Anya's mindset a little differently. I'm not sure she sees herself as guilty, but I certainly believe that she realizes Xander hurts because of her tryst with Spike. Anya's ability to understand that is a major step forward for her. And if she does see herself as having betrayed Xander, then I'd agree with you completely. I'm sure they'll explore this in the remaining episodes.

[> [> Re: Anya and betrayal -- Sharpetoo, 08:05:39 05/04/02 Sat

They were on a break.

[> [> [> I was wondering when someone would bring up Friends :) -- Ete, 11:33:20 05/04/02 Sat

[> [> Re: Anya and betrayal -- OnM, 20:51:47 05/04/02 Sat

*** There's only cheating if they are a couple. When Xander walked out on the wedding and disappeared (we don't know for how long), their days as a couple ended. Now, they may very well get back together in the future. They both want to in some way, but they haven't yet agreed on the terms of their relationship. Until they do, I can't see the tryst (...) as any kind of betrayal. ***

I think that this all hinges on how one defines a 'couple'. If your definition is correct, then you are also correct that Anya's actions with Spike do not constitute a betrayal in any literal sense.

However, it seems very apparent to me that they are still a 'couple', defined as two people who continue to have a deep emotional connection with one another. Even with the pain inflicted on Anya by Xander standing her up at the altar, it is clear to me that her feelings for Xander aren't going to be just turned off like water from a faucet.

Therefore, Anya is being disloyal to the spirit of the relationship. She recognizes this herself, or she wouldn't have hesitated when Spike started kissing her. (What are we doing?) Moving on? I don't think so. Also, as she and Spike part, he starts to 'wish', and she tells him to stop.

Anya's not the type of person who is going to feel she's done something wrong, unless she really has. She's excused a thousand years of infliction of misery as 'justice', why would she feel bad about exacting punishment on someone who has directly wronged her?

Thought experiment: Suppose Xander had the power of the wish? Would he curse her in some horrific fashion, even after her dalliance with Spike?

I don't think so, and I think she knows that.

[> [> [> Re: Anya and betrayal -- LittleBit, 06:43:52 05/05/02 Sun

No, you're right, he wouldn't. Xander would curse her with something small and petty and it would turn out horrific. (BBB, OMWF).

[> [> [> [> You don't work for ME, by any chance, do you? ;-) ;- ) -- OnM, 09:58:38 05/05/02 Sun

You are so right!

As a non-Xandery side note re: small curses,

The death of a thousand non-child-support-check paper cuts, anyone?

Considering Halfrek's general ditsyness, that actually was a fairly clever curse, IMO.

[> [> [> [> [> Don't I wish!! ;-) ;-) -- LittleBIt, 15:15:00 05/05/02 Sun

And re: the papercuts, may I just say "ow ow ow"

[> [> [> Coupling -- Sophist, 20:37:15 05/05/02 Sun

Now that's a catchy subject line. Bait and switch, though.

If Anya and Xander, deep inside, consider themselves still a couple, then I agree that Anya's tryst was a betrayal from the standpoint of an observer. I'm not convinced that, even then, Xander has the right to treat them as a couple and demand the same fidelity; I think he forfeited that right when he left. Only when Anya takes him back can he demand anything from her. So if I grant your premise, then Xander was still in the wrong as far as I'm concerned.

While you may very well be right about Anya, I'm not sure we saw evidence of that until after the sex. Makes it hard to judge what her emotion/commitment was while in the Magic Box.

[> Steering with Emphatic Gestures (the Xander/Anya mess) -- cjl, 10:19:01 05/03/02 Fri

I've always thought that the ice cream truck conversation between Xander and Anya in "Restless" centered around Xander's fear of the future (driving forward) and whether his current partner can be trusted to safely lead him into that future. The first part of their discussion (after he gets into the truck) states this boldly: Anya says she needs a hobby, and going back to vengeance demonhood sounds like a solid enough occupation. The second part is a bit more subtle: when Anya says she's learning to steer the truck with empathic gestures, this reflects Xander's fear that Anya still isn't quite human. She may have been reincarnated as a human, she may have copied the behavior of humans as best she can, but Xander is still afraid she's a demon at heart. If Anya is left to steer the ice cream truck, there's going to be a crash, and their future will be wrecked. No wonder Xander goes to the back and tries to indulge in yummy adolescent three-way action with Willow and Tara...

The sad part, of course, is that Xander received this warning at the end of Season 4, and he didn't listen to a word of it. He kept pushing his doubts about the relationship to the back of his mind, to the point where his level of denial reached mind-boggling proportions mid-way through Season 6. Then, at the wedding, all the psychic detritus of his dream (his nightmare of a family, Anya's past as a demon) materialized, and he freaked out and ran. His nightmare came true. The ice cream truck crashed. But Anya wasn't driving--he was. (It was his dream, after all.)

The crash took three episodes to play out, and by the end of "Entropy," we're staring at the wreckage by the side of the road. Zero energy, indeed, OnM. Do Xander and Anya have any strength left to crawl out of the wreckage and get back on the highway?

[> Wow. Thanks, OnM -- verdantheart, 12:25:13 05/03/02 Fri

[> Wow! And I thought "Entropy" simply referred to... -- DickBD, 13:36:12 05/03/02 Fri

Wow! And I thought that “entropy” simply referred to the dissipation of the anger of Anya!
What a great and multi-layered analysis! You know, I am with you on this year’s being an awfully
good season, although I didn’t think so at first. I was absolutely blown away by “Normal Again.”
It was a stroke of genius. It made you question every thing, and yet it couldn’t be true that all
that we have been watching were merely the hallucinations of a young psychotic girl (even if
that seemed more plausible, as Buffy acknowledged) because her mind would also have had to be
constructing the Angel chronicles, too. But the writers really had a good time with every one,
including themselves. The psychiatrist notes how the world of theirs no longer works, i.e. the
plots are breaking down. No demon foes any longer, just some geeks.

Loved your analysis of Anya. She is one of my favorites. (I think it was the bunny costume for
Halloween that did it, but I also like the way she talks.) However, I must confess that I am
puzzled by all girls going blonde. Since I have been married to a brunette for forty-five years, I
tend to favor the dark-haired girls. I can appreciate blondes, but I hate to see every single girl go
that route. Even Buffy is not a true blonde.

Hmmm. My response has rambled off. Must be entropy!

[> Re: *Learning to Steer with Emphatic Gestures* - Thoughts on *Entropy* (***Spoilers***) -- Rattletrap, 14:31:31 05/03/02 Fri

Excellent insights as always OnM. You successfully took everything I was thinking about a good coupla steps farther and have left me with more to think about in my next viewing of this episode.

Unrelated side note: String Cheese Incident posters have been a pretty regular recurrence in the background since about Season 4 or 5. They may start appearing after "Restless," actually, I'll have to go back and check, I love the common cheese theme anyway. The other common band poster that shows up is for Widespread Panic whose promo posters have peppered the backgrounds since S1 or 2. Since both of these are essentially latter-day psychedelic jam bands, it leads me to believe the property master or the set designer or someone (Joss himself?) is a pretty big fan of The Dead and their inheritors.

[> the entropy metaphor -- lulabel, 18:13:59 05/03/02 Fri

I really liked your examination of the entropy metaphor, and how that reflects this episode's movement toward "putting energy back into the system" Your comment about thermal systems moving from a higher state of excitation to a lower state reminded me of another consideration in the this whole entropy/energy thing...

If two systems of different energies (i.e. one is hotter than the other) are brought into thermal contact, then energy from the hotter system will transfer to the other system until they both reach the same temperature. At this point, the system has reached maximum entropy. This system is now in equilibrium.

We're not at absolute zero, since energy is not lost, we have exactly as much energy as we started out with. Now, however, things are as "mixed up" (entropy) as they can possible be, but they are also "in balance" (equilibrium). Does this still fit this episode? I think that last scene with Anya, Xander, Buffy and Spike might fit the bill. We have four completely different entities - a vampire, a vengence demon, a slayer, and a regular joe. Yet in this moment of maximum entropy, we have a balance - they are all the same. All pretenses have been stripped away, they are all left naked and exposed in their pain.

[> [> Great Point! NT -- DickBD, 12:49:49 05/05/02 Sun

[> The Symbolic use of colour...... -- Rufus, 22:31:23 05/03/02 Fri

I did a spoilery post about the symbolic use of colour in regards to a certain character, but I will put down part of the information I got from "The Herder Dictionary of Symbols"...

"BLACK: A color symbolically analogous to WHITE and that similarly corresponds to the absolute; hence it can express both the abundance of life and its total emptiness. In the sense of the undifferentiatied and abysmal, it often appears as the designation of darkness, primal chaos, and death. As the color of mourning, it is closely associated with resigned pain(thus differing from the light color white, which signals hope).

As the color of the night, it shares in the symbolic complex of mother-fertility-mystery-death; black is thus also the color of fertility, mother godesses, and their priestesses(in this context it is sometimes related to symbolically to RED, the color of blood). In China, black is the color of the feminine principle, yin (see yin and
yang) and contrasts with its opposite, Yellow (or sometimes also Red), rather than with white, as in the West.

As the color if evil, black occurs, for example, in the term "black magic".

In the Spanish Court, black was for a long time the color of great dignity."

Remember the use of black in this season, it is associated with Primal Chaos, something that Giles gave a very pointed warning to Willow about in "Flooded". Also for those who don't like the addiction analogy, look closely to Willow past and present...she avoids pain and confrontation at all costs. When in pain Willow gets drunk/stoned first in Something Blue and then later in Smashed. Magic has been used like one would use a drug to get through the experience of pain the easy way. This year, Willow has used magic for a sense of self and to make herself feel happy, but it is only illusory in nature, she always end up back where she started...hurting. Black as a symbol of chaos is important this year, but it's also a colour of mourning, and the loss of hope. When it is used with Buffy it certainly means death, but also can mean the chaos she feels inside upon coming back to life.

Now to the colour white........

WHITE: the colour of LIGHT, purity, and perfection. Like its opposite, BLACK, white has a special place among the colours of the spectrum (which combined yield white). It is closely associated with the absolute (both the beginning and the end, as well as their union) and consequently is used at marriages, initiations, and death rites. I is the color of mourning in Slavic lands and in Asia, for example, and occasionally at the French court.

White was the preferred color of specially selected sacrificial animals.

Priests often wear white garments to symbolize spirit and light, and the angels and the blessed in Christianity are often clothed in white for the same reason. Newly baptized Christians wear white clothing: at Christ's transfiguration his garments became "white as snow"; the white ceremonial dress of brides, postulants, and those making first communion signify innocence and virginity.

In contrast to the vital color Red, white is also the color of ghosts and specters. Sometimes the color red is associated with man and white with woman.

All I will say is that white may play an important part in the season finale. Remember Buffy wore that white sweater in The Gift, much like a sacrificial animal...but for Buffy it symbolized an end that gives way to a beginning.

Now I will mention the color red as it will figure strongly in the next ep. From the Herder Dictionary of Symbols...

RED: Red is the color of FIRE and BLOOD, and like these symbolically ambivalent. In a postitive sense it is the color of life, love, warmth, inspired passion, and fertility; in a negative sense it is the color of war, the desructive power of fire, loss of blood, and hate.

In antiquity there was a widespread belief that red protected one from dangers. Sometimes, for example, animals, trees, and objects were painted red to protect them from evil influences or to make them fertile.

In Egypt red, the color of the glowing deserts, was regarded as a symbol of evil and destruction; the scribe, for example, used as special red ink for bad words. As the color of the crown of lower Egypt, however, red had a positive significance.

Among the Romans, brides wore a fire-red veil, the flammeum, a symbolic reference to love and fertility. For the Romands red, also symbolic of power, was the color of the emperor, the nobility, and the generals.

High-level judicial officers have often made use of the color red (eg. in the Middle Ages the executioner, as lord over life and death, wore a red garment; in many countries today, red is the color of judges, particularly those of high rank).

The Cardinals of the church wear red with reference to the blood of the martyrs.

Satan, the Lord of Hell, and the whore of Babylon are dressed in red; in this context red is the expression of the devouring power of hellfire or of untamed desires and passions.

In alchemy red is regarded as the color of the PHILOSOPHERS' STONE, which is considered the stone that carries the sign of the light of the sun.

As a striking signal color that promises new life and warmth,red is the flag color of revolution, particulary of socialism and communism.

Red was what Anya wore, underneath her blouse a bra of black...figure that one out..;) Red will be evident in Seeing Red. Are the writers using colour symbolically, or are they sometimes just winging it?

[> [> Stupid hair theory... -- alcibiades, 08:53:00 05/04/02 Sat

Rufus wrote:

"Are the writers using colour symbolically, or are they sometimes just winging it?"

Couldn't help noticing that Anya's hair got lighter and lighter all season long. But in Entropy, Anya, as well as Spike, was showing dark roots under the golden hair in the sex scene in Entropy.

This can be read a few ways:

All that glitters is not gold.
The real me is finally re-emerging.
The real darker me is finally re-emerging.
Entirely insignificant.

[> [> [> Re: Stupid hair theory... -- O'Cailleagh, 18:45:53 05/04/02 Sat

Also, Anya's hair went from completelty straight to very curly as the episode (entropy) this a vengeance demon power? Cos that'd be handy!

[> [> Re: The Symbolic use of colour...... -- ravenhair, 16:38:20 05/06/02 Mon

I've also noticed Dawn has been seen several times wearing blue, particularly pale blue (OMWF;OaFA;Entropy).

Dawn's behavior may not reflect the symbols associated with the color blue, but she does inspire blue traits in others.

Serenity: Dawn has a calming effect on Spike in the episode, Bargaining (relaxed on the couch eating pizza; she panics later in the episode & Spike reassures her). Blue acts as an ideal foil to red, which symbolizes fire. Spike is a good example of the fire element.

Truth: Dawn has been anything but truthful but she seems to be responsible for uncovering truths such as blurting out Xander's disappearance in Hell's Bells in front of Anya; and voicing the theme of OMWF("The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.").

Blue is also a maternal color that inspires loyalty: Buffy and Spike fit into this role as parental figures.

Blue can also signify depression: Dawn has been acting very cold towards her sister this year due to neglect. She confesses to Buffy in OaFA of her feelings of loneliness and profound sadness.

The Scooby Gang vs. The Troika and Respect (long! spoilers for Entropy) -- shadowkat, 08:45:44 05/03/02 Fri

The Scooby Gang Vs. The Trioka and The Theme Respect

(Quotes from Psyche Transcripts. Oh - this was a hard one – so be kind. Also remember – my threads are part of Anti- Character Defamation League, no bashing here. Spoilers up Entropy. If you haven’t seen Entropy – don’t read!)

“R-E-S-P-E-C-T, you know what it means to me, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha…give me a little RESPECT!”

I think that’s it, lyrics were never my strong point. But boy does Aretha Franklin drive it home. I would love nothing better than to throw the characters of Btvs in a locked room with it blasting in their ears.

Respect…do we respect our world? Each other? Others opinions? Others views when they do not agree or even conflict with our own? Do we respect nature? Do we even respect ourselves? Failure to respect these things can destroy us. The religion of Wicca is heavily founded upon RESPECT. Respect of the laws of nature, respect of the earth, and respect of our bodies. In Wicca – you have to respect one another enough to do sky-clad (nude) rituals. You are also expected to respect the forces of nature or they will destroy you.

In the movie The Fellowship of the Ring, based on J.R. Tolkien’s classic work of the same name, the main character, Frodo Baggins, is asked to go on a perilous journey in order to destroy an evil ring. The ring is placed in Frodo’s safekeeping because of all the characters in the novel Frodo can resist the temptation of using the ring to accomplish his own ends. He respects the terrible of power of the ring and he respects Gandalf the Wizard who places it in his care. Respect is a central ingredient to Frodo’s character. He respects himself, the ring, the natural order of things enough to resist the ring’s power and to go off and destroy it. From the very beginning of Btvs – Buffy is asked to respect the nature of her calling and in doing so respect the dangers that she will face. She decides not to date Owen in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date, (Season 1, Btvs) because it becomes clear that Owen does not respect the inherent dangers involved. As she tells Giles – “he wants to be danger man. You, Xander, Willow, you guys... you guys know the score, you're careful. Two days in my world and Owen really *would* get himself killed. Or I'd get him killed. Or someone else.” They respect the danger involved or at least they used to, before they saved the world so many times they started to lose count. Now, they are just going through the motions.

And going through the motions can get you killed. Giles has attempted to drill that through their heads. Respect the natural forces. Don’t treat these things lightly. You would have thought after five years of fighting the forces of evil they’d have gotten the message. But they haven’t as is expressed by Willow’s spell to bring Buffy back. Here’s what Giles says to Willow after she describes the spell. Willow is looking for congratulations, in her arrogance she has lost respect for the very forces she harnessed.

GILES: (turns to face her) Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've harnessed, the lines you've crossed?
WILLOW: I thought you'd be ... impressed, or, or something.
GILES: Oh, don't worry, you've ... made a very deep impression. Of everyone here ... you were the one I trusted most to respect the forces of nature. (Flooded, Season 6)

Willow of all people should know better – in Season 4, Something Blue, she was almost turned into a vengeance demon for a spell she cast to get rid of pain. But the last two years have made her careless, arrogant. She and Tara have been spell-casting back and forth without question. In the Gift – Willow switches the energy between Tara and Glory, pushes aside the demon minions and telepathically communicates with Spike. And in Weight of the World – she enters Buffy’s mind to reverse Buffy’s catatonic state. Willow has the best of intentions, but haven’t we already decided that the way to hell is paved with the best of intentions? Willow has lost her respect for the forces of nature, assuming she ever respected them to begin with, she looks at nature much as a scientist would, something to fiddle around with at will. Tara on the other hand has a deep respect for it.

TARA: I can't believe that we are talking about this again. You know how powerful magic is, how dangerous. You could hurt someone, you ... you could hurt yourself. (Tabula Rasa, Season 6)

Even when Willow gives up magic, it is not out of respect for it. It is like a drug user giving up drugs. She doesn’t understand what Giles and Tara are trying to tell her. She sees magic as “just” an addiction. Something she has to get past. Not as something that could destroy the universe. Until she learns to respect it – her magic will control her and not the other way around.

Jonathan like Willow – uses magic to control his world. In Superstar, Season 4, Btvs, Jonathan used magic to manipulate the world to fit what was in his head. In his dream world, he was the slayer, James Bond, and a millionaire tycoon. Everyone jumped when he told them to and lavished their attentions on him. Only one little problem with this world – in order to maintain it, he created a beast, which by the way looks a lot like the beast Willow conjured with her magic in Wrecked. A beast that hurt and killed innocent people. Magic, Jonathan learned always has a price. This has not kept Jonathan from trying again, two seasons later we see him creating cerebral dampeners, casting a locator spell, and altering his appearance to fool the slayer. Jonathan apparently hasn’t learned a thing. Yet, he does appear to respect magic. He doesn’t over-use it and he does get injured. The difference between him and Willow in the long run may be that – respect.

Respect of the natural forces surrounding us is not the only thing we need to respect. We also need to learn how to respect others opinions and views when they differ from our own. Willow clearly wasn’t respecting Tara’ views. She mind wipes Tara twice to control her thoughts causing Tara to flee the relationship. It’s not until Willow gives up magic and starts to respect Tara’s opinion again that they get back together. Xander has the same problem with Anya. He does not respect Anya enough to share his fears with her. Nor does he respect her opinion. How many times has he corrected Anya this past year?

ANYA: What? I'm just saying what everyone's thinking, (to Xander) right baby?
XANDER: You are attractive and have many good qualities (Tabula Rasa)

And in Double Meat Palace, Halfrek, Anya’s demon friend, asks:
HALFREK: Who told you that it isn't easy to love you?
ANYA: Well, you know, I'll do something, or say something, and, and then he has to say stuff like, (imitating Xander) 'it's incorrect for you to appreciate money so much,' or, or, 'Observe: here is how a real human would behave.'
HALFREK: Oh, so he corrects you?
ANYA: Well, no, it's just ... um ... well, no, I mean, now I'm all confused, I mean, wha, do you think there's something wrong with, with the way he treats me?

Xander has never really accepted Anya’s ex-demon status. He corrects her, makes smart alec remarks and generally puts her down. Granted Anya does have a tendency to say the wrong thing, but Xander should also be a bit more supportive. Xander’s lack of respect for Anya’s feelings culminates in Hells Bells when he stands Anya up at their wedding. In Entropy he apologizes for leaving her alone with all of the wedding guests but the apology comes a bit late and he still doesn’t respect her enough to let her know why. Of course as many posters on the boards have pointed out – it isn’t just Xander’s fault. Anya is equally to blame here – she hasn’t exactly given him a chance to explain, she hasn’t sat down with him and talked it out. Instead she goes around trying to curse him. At this point, I would have to say neither character respects the others’ point of view. Nor do they respect the fact that you can’t control others thoughts or actions, just your own. Part of growing up is honoring someone else’s views and choices even if they conflict with yours. Anya and Xander’s train wreck of a relationship is due to a combination of things, principally their lack of respect for themselves and each other.

But it’s not just Anya or himself, Xander lost respect for. Xander has also lost respect for the villains they’ve been fighting since high school. He’s forgotten how dangerous Spike can be and continues to egg him on, just because Spike has a chip. Spike has saved Xander’s life quite a few times this year (Bargaining, Older and Far Away, and Normal Again) – Xander might want to take a moment to appreciate that or at least think about why. Instead he treats Spike with less respect than he did in Season 4 or even Season 2. He treats him like he treated the teeny tiny Fear demon in Fear Itself, which Giles chided him on because it was tacky. (Season 4, Btvs). He’s gotten so used to Spike being on a leash, that he’s forgotten what a dangerous creature he really is. Xander might want to take a moment to appreciate the fact that without a chip in his head, Spike would kill him. Spike is dangerous. Riley certainly remembered that – the SG have managed to forget it. I think Buffy’s comment to Riley regarding the demon eggs being akin to “tribbles” in AYW is a perfect example of how much the SG are taking for granted. They don’t take the Troika seriously after all they’re just high school nerds not dangerous hell gods, right? (Normal Again, Season 6, Btvs.). They didn’t take the demon eggs seriously, and they aren’t taking Spike seriously. As they sing in Once More With Feeling :

BUFFY: What can't we face if we're together? What's in this place that we can't weather? Apocalypse? We've all been there. The same old trips. Why should we care?
ALL EXCEPT GILES: What can't we do if we get in it? We'll work it through within a minute.

They certainly didn’t take the demon Xander summoned seriously. The demon that made them all sing and dance until they combusted. They barely even chastise Xander for it. Hey, it was just dances and stuff, right? As Xander states: “Well, I didn't know what was gonna happen! I just thought there were gonna be dances and songs. (to Anya) I just wanted to make sure we'd... we'd work out. (nervous smile) Get a happy ending.” (OMWF, Season 6 Btvs)

Funny, I guess no one noticed the few people who combusted on the way. The SG didn’t take it seriously. No big. Just a demon. We took care of it. They also didn’t take a minute to wonder why Xander summoned it? Granted they were a tad distracted by Buffy being in heaven. Besides after fighting Glory and bringing Buffy back from the dead, it’s just another night on the hell mouth, heck this stuff happens all the time. As Xander puts it time and again, “yeah demons, don’t usually see them, unless you’re us.”

Andrew, of the Troika, also summons demons. That appears to Andrew’s job in the Troika and he clearly doesn’t have much respect for the forces of darkness or demons in general. He sees it as play time, a joke. Spending most of his time referencing old movies, reading comics, playing D &D. In this way, he reminds me a lot of Xander. Except of course Xander now has a job and has moved out of the basement. In Doublemeat Palace, when Willow mentions the Star Trek paraphernalia that she and Buffy uncovered in the Troika’s lair, Xander gets intrigued just as Andrew gets upset over Spike’s threatened abuse of the Boba Fett figure in Smashed. Andrew like Xander is the Troika’s Zeppo. Except Xander is brighter and more responsible than Andrew. Andrew is a dumb geek, who will do anything that Warren asks without question. Another similarity to Xander – who will do just about anything Buffy asks. But, there’s an important difference, Xander does have scruples and respect for life. He will question Buffy on her actions.

Buffy’s lack of self-respect is a big factor this season. Buffy doesn’t respect her duty, her friends, herself, or the two people who care about her the most: Spike and Dawn. She can’t. She can barely stand to look at herself in the mirror. She is as she sings in OMWF and hums in Gone, just going through the motions.

Buffy’s treatment of Spike reminds me of the Michael Douglas/Glenn Close movie Fatal Attraction. In the film, Michael Douglas, a happily married man, pursues a sexual relationship with a high strung and emotionally unstable businesswoman played by Glenn Close. Their sex is violent and visceral and they do it on the elevator, in the kitchen, everywhere but the bed. Glenn Close’s character falls hard for Douglas. She craves his visits. Craves his company. When he breaks off their affair and goes back to his wife, things get rather ugly. Close kills his daughter’s rabbit, attacks Douglas’ wife and finally commits suicide in his bathroom attempting to set him up for the crime. She doesn’t want to live if she can’t have him. And she wants him to hurt as much as she does. Michael Douglas’s character thought he could just have a quickie affair, use her and lose her. But life doesn’t work that way. He didn’t respect her or himself or his marriage and as a result almost loses everything. Buffy has done the same thing with Spike – she’s entered what she considers a purely sexual relationship with an emotionally unstable vampire who can hurt her. Talk about playing with fire. She does not respect what he is or represents. It’s not the sex that’s the problem here – it never was – it’s the lack of respect Buffy has for herself and/or for Spike’s feelings. She doesn’t even consider his feelings real. In each of their early scenes, he tries, albeit unsuccessfully, to converse with her while she continues to push the physical. He wants to connect. She just wants physical gratification. He might as well be a robot. The only problem is, Spike is not a robot. He has feelings not unlike, ironically enough, the robot April.

Spike and April are quite a bit a like in this context. In I Was Made To Love You (season 5, Btvs), Warren creates a female robot girlfriend to love him, named April. When he dumps her, she blindly pursues him like a puppy dog. Warren doesn’t respect April or consider her love for him real. He thinks that he can just turn her off and move on. Just discard her like a toy.

BUFFY: Did you even tell her? I mean, did you even give her a chance to fix what was wrong?
WARREN: I didn't need to fix anything. I mean, her batteries were supposed to run down. Really, they should be completely dead by now.

But April can’t turn off what she feels for him. It’s not that easy. When he spurns her - she reacts with rage and tries to kill him until he deflects her rage onto Buffy. She even growls.

WARREN: No, hey, no. See, I - I know that you love me, but the truth is, I can't love you. (April frowns) I mean, it's not your fault, but... (Cut back to the computer display. ) I don't love you. (IWMTY, Season 5 Btvs)
Buffy has done exactly the same thing to Spike. In As You Were she practically states the same lines that Warren does, the only difference, she does admit she’s been using him and she does blame herself: “I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just ... being weak, and selfish...” (AYW, Season 6 Btvs) Warren shows no remorse.

Like Warren’s April, Spike has become Buffy’s own personal windup toy. Dead. Not real. Like a robot. And she appears to respect him as much as one would a robot. In As You Were, she asks him to tell her that he loves her, that he wants her – almost as if she’s playing a recording to make herself feel better:

BUFFY: (quietly) Tell me you love me.
SPIKE: (surprised) I love you. You know I do.

In Gone, she throws him around his crypt, embarrasses him in front of Xander and basically uses him as a sex toy. After she breaks up with him, and he’s following her around, she tells him in Entropy, “I don’t love you” and when he once again confesses his feelings for her, “The way I feel... about you... It's different. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself it isn't. It's real, ” she says: “I think it is. (a beat) For you.” (He gives her look as if she’s just driven a stake through his heart.) (ENTROPY, Season 6 Btvs).

Has Buffy forgotten what Warren did to April? Maybe Spike doesn’t rate that high? No – I think Buffy does remember in both Dead Things, when she replays the scene with Katrina and Warren in her head and in As You Were when she finally breaks things off with him, but as often is the case in Btvs, it’s a little late. And in typical Buffy fashion – she thinks, ‘okay it’s over now, I can just bury it. We can forget it ever happened. We can both move on.’ Just like Michael Douglas thought in Fatal Attraction. But they’ve forgotten something – people aren’t toys that you can just discard whenever you’re done with them. To Buffy’s credit - Spike should have respected her decision to call it off. But how many times has she called it off prior to AYW only to return to him again? At least five that we are aware of and at no point did Buffy treat Spike with a modicum of respect. Except possibly when she told him it was over and greeted him at Xander’s wedding.

This reminds me of another fatal attraction storyline, a bit more famous than the Michael Douglas film, Emily Bronte’s Wuthering Heights. In Wuthering Heights – Heathcliff, a wild child who is continuously treated with disdain, falls deeply in love with the beautiful Kathy. Kathy spurns him to marry a respectable landowner and Heathcliff, in emotional turmoil, goes off to seek revenge. The story ends tragically for them both. Kathy may be able to move on, but Heathcliff, try as he might, cannot.

In Entropy, Buffy tells Spike the same thing that Giles told him in I Was Made To Love You: “Spike, this thing ... get over it.”
SPIKE: (small smile) I don't know what you mean.
GILES: Yes, you do. Move the hell on. (I Was Made To Love You, Season 5)

BUFFY: You just... have to move on. You have to –“ (Entropy, Season 6)

Has Buffy forgotten what it felt like when Parker dumped her in Harsh Light of Day (Season 4, Btvs) ? In Beer Bad, she daydreams about getting him back, gets wasted, turns into cave girl, and knocks poor Parker out twice with a branch. She even fantasizes about killing him: “If he were tied and gagged and left in a cave that vampires happen to frequent it wouldn't really be like I killed him really.” (Beer Bad, Btvs Season 4) What about Willow – when she got dumped, she almost became a vengeance demon in Something Blue: “I just can't stand feeling this way. I want it to be over. (edited for length and emphasis) Well, isn't there someway I can just make it go away? Just ‘cause I say so? Can't I just make it go ‘poof'?” I agree, why can’t we just make this sort of pain go poof? It would make life so much simpler.

When Cordelia dumped him, Xander concocted a dangerous love spell that made every woman go nuts over him because he wanted Cordelia to feel the pain he felt, in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered (season 2, Btvs): “The point is I want her to want me. Desperately. So I can break up with *her* and subject her to the same hell she's been puttin' *me* through.” And here’s what Spike says to Anya in Entropy: “I need something. Numbing spell, maybe? (edited for length and emphasis) Got something that'll dull the ache a bit?” Interesting: Willow tries to get rid of her pain by getting drunk first, Buffy tries by getting drunk and Spike tries by getting drunk. What’s that saying “love makes you do the wacky?” Fatal Attraction is a long-running theme in BtVs. And now we have the ultimate rejected party – an emotionally unstable vampire who can hurt the Slayer. Did Buffy forget what it felt like to be rejected? Did she forget whom she was dealing with? Did we?

Apparently so, he’s been her punching bag for so long now that she sees him as incompetent, therefore incapable of trafficking in demon eggs or really hurting anyone. Not because he loves her – because he’s incompetent. She not only lost respect for his feelings, she’s lost respect for him as her nemesis. It’s not until two episodes before As You Were, Dead Things, that Buffy even realizes what she’s doing with Spike – using him. But she hangs on to the relationship until Riley confronts her with what Spike is, Samoral, opportunistic and deadly.” I found this relationship as difficult to watch as Fatal Attraction or Wuthering Heights – for the same reasons, I was routing for the wrong person. In Fatal Attraction – my sympathy lay with Glenn Close, in Wuthering Heights – with Heathcliff and now, oddly enough, with Spike. Why? RESPECT. Buffy does not respect Spike. Okay –I know there are a few of you out there who don’t see a reason why she should, after all he is a soulless vampire, and as such not really deserving of it, but I’m not talking about “respect in the sense of finding him honorable or worthy of respect” – I’m talking about “respecting the fact that this person could become dangerous if crossed” that this person has “feelings” which can be hurt and can cause him to hurt back. Just like April the robot when Warren rejected her. Warren didn’t respect April’s feelings any more than Buffy respects Spike. Warren also didn’t see any reason to respect April, he didn’t appreciate how dangerous April could be when thwarted. Spike is also dangerous. Riley makes that clear in As You Were – “Amoral, Opportunistic, and Deadly or have you forgotten?” Apparently she’s forgotten the “deadly” part of the formula. The writers are making an interesting point – you should not treat anyone the way Buffy has treated Spike without expecting to get kicked. And she is about to. Three times three – remember? I’m not saying she deserves it, I’m saying that you tend to reap what you sow in this life and the amount of respect you give out is the amount you can expect in return. In Spike’s defense – he does love Buffy, but he is also a vampire, a soulless vampire, who as the season has progressed, has received less and less respect from the object of his affections. She keeps telling him that he’s evil, untrustworthy, amoral, and not real. As he states to Anya – “I was always going above and beyond. I saved the Scoobies how many times? And I can't stand the lot of you..” (Entropy, Btvs Season 6.) From Spike’s point of view, it clearly doesn’t matter to Buffy whether he’s good or he’s bad, she’ll treat him the same. And that must sting – because he did it all for her. She will never respect him because he is a monster. (Odd, last year she had begun to, enough to actually treat him like a man and trust him to take care of her sister. Now – since she had the fling with him – her respect for him as a person has gone out the window.)

Buffy also hasn’t shown a great deal of respect for her friends. She doesn’t respect them enough to tell them that they tore her from heaven or to tell them about her relationship with Spike. Instead she buries everything, just like she always has, and as Xander puts it in Dead Man’s Party (Season 3 Btvs):”You can't just bury stuff, Buffy. It'll come right back up to get you.” Which it’s doing right now, coming right out of the ground and biting her, maybe not literally like it did in Dead Man’s Party but it is doing it. Xander might have been able to deal with her relationship with Spike, if she’d chosen to tell him before the wedding disaster. Letting Spike be the one to do it – and yes she did let him, was probably the worst possible thing she could have done to Xander. To Buffy’s credit she didn’t tell them for the same reason Xander didn’t reveal his relationship with Cordy – lack of respect for the relationship, the other person, and themselves.

The writers have paralleled Warren with Buffy a great deal this season. And Buffy barely takes him seriously, certainly not as seriously as she took Glory. Why would she? Glory is a hell god. Warren is a nerd, ineffectual. She knows he’s a murderer. But Buffy and the SG have fought worse. Warren on the other hand takes Buffy very seriously, to the extent that he has her and her friends on constant around the clock video surveillance. Throughout the season we have watched Buffy struggling to do things the hard way, while Warren takes short-cuts. Occasionally their actions mirror each other. In Gone – Warren wants to use the invisibility ray to spy on the girls at the spa, maybe even play with them a bit. When Buffy is accidentally hit with it, she goes and plays sex games with Spike. Warren’s actions were clearly worse – since the girls are unwilling participants and he intended to use the ray to spy on them. Buffy is just making the best of her situation and Spike is willing enough. But not that willing, since he eventually kicks her out. Her actions, Spike notes, show a lack of respect for him, herself and life in general. She also uses her invisibility to torment Doris the social worker, causing the woman to possibly lose her job. Instead of taking charge of the situation, she uses it to take reckless short- cuts, not unlike Warren. Next we have Dead Things – and again the writers flip us back and forth between Warren and Buffy. Warren makes Katrina his sex slave while Buffy is struggling with her cravings for Spike. Warren doesn’t respect Katrina at all – she’s just an object to him. Buffy sees Spike as an evil soulless thing. Yet, unlike Warren, she is beginning to see Spike as more than an object – hence the guilt. Spike is also a willing participant in Buffy’s game. But the biggest difference between Warren and Buffy is Buffy can feel guilt. Warren apparently can’t. He kills Katrina and treats her like she’s just a body to be disposed of, Buffy on the other hand rails at Spike for disposing of the body and insists on turning herself in. Buffy, unlike Warren, still has respect for life.

The word “Respect” has a broad rang of meanings and uses in our language. I found at least seven in the dictionary. Respecting authority or honoring someone with respect – is one and the theme discussed in Season 3 Btvs. In Season 6 – the “respect” theme is far more complex. Respecting the forces of nature, respecting things we can’t change, respecting ourselves, respecting others…if you look back through the episodes, it becomes clear that the SG’s loss of respect for the evil they’ve always fought, the allies who’ve fought beside them, and life in general has trapped them in a nightmare of their own making.

Part of growing up is learning how to respect views different from your own. Learning to respect our world and ourselves. Will our three Scoobies, Xander, Buffy, and Willow learn this lesson in time to avoid more pain? Or will they continue to live out their own nightmares as depicted in Restless: Xander’s losing his heart at the bottom of the basement stairs due to his lack of respect for his parents, himself, Anya, Willow chocking on her spirit/magic due to her lack of respect for life, nature, and power, and Buffy attempting to ignore the first slayer who appears to be raping her with a knife on her living room floor – due to her lack of respect for Spike/the Slayer, her shadow self? Or will their nightmares just get worse? Will they relive the dreams of Fear Itself – where Willow loses control of her magic, Xander loses his identity – so no one sees him, and Buffy is abandoned by all her friends? Is respect the key?

Thanks for reading. Looking forward to your comments as always. Feedback appreciated!

; -) shadowkat (website:

[> Re: The Scooby Gang vs. The Troika and Respect (long! spoilers for Entropy) -- Purple Tulip, 09:17:17 05/03/02 Fri

WOW! I'm not sure what else to say but WOW! I think you're essays are always amazing, and I wish that I had the time and the insight to write the in-depth analysis' that you do. I completely agree with your argument about Buffy and Spike and the lack of respect there- I think you're right- on with that one. Keep up the good work, and thanks for giving us something to ponder!!! :)

[> Good points...thanks! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 10:28:11 05/03/02 Fri

Hi shadowkat-

I haven't been around the board for a while, but I've been hearing good things about your essays, which have been confirmed by this latest effort.

It will be interesting to see if the culmination of the "Oh, Grow Up!" season will address the issue of respect and the lack thereof. I agree that there are parallels between the SG and the Troika in this regard, but I have to say that I think those parallels can be found between many groups of "twenty-somethings."

The question for me becomes how much do, or can, we expect the SG to deviate from "societal norms," given the tenuousness of their situation on the Hellmouth? I could more easily accept that these young people would already display wisdom and maturity (and respect!) beyond their years, having lived through the last six of them, than that they all fall into the stereotypical irresponsible behaviour of their peers.

The writers must struggle with this to some extent--trying to portray characters "normal" enough to arouse empathy and yet placing them in unique circumstances. I guess that's part of what I've been missing this season--the recognition that the situation in Sunnydale has never been "normal," and so the young people who live there might be expected to develop and mature in ways considered "abnormal." By abnormal I'm not referring to their development as Slayers, or Wiccans, or vengeance demons, but that we might have expected these particular young people to exhibit more respect for themselves and their world than had they not been living on a Hellmouth.

Whew, okay, I'm obviously a bit rusty, composition-wise, but I did want to say I enjoyed your essay, and I'm glad to be back to the Board, hopefully for good.


[> [> Welcome back! Glad you're better and thanks! -- shadowkat, 10:33:02 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> yay dubdub! -- O'Cailleagh, 21:29:19 05/04/02 Sat

It is wonderful to 'see' you back on the board. I hope you are feeling better. Clem sends hugs!

[> what was that new acronym again? To the printer! -- ponygirl, 12:57:16 05/03/02 Fri

Let me throw in the traditional wowza after reading your essay. Hope to have longer comments later but for now I really appreciate your points on respect or the lack of that seems to plague so many characters. While I am enjoying Buffy being "back" as is being discussed further down the board, she still seems to have a long way to go emotionally, before she can finally see Spike for what he is, or what he has the potential to become.

[> [> CutPR: Crank up the Printer, Rufus! -- verdantheart, 13:42:09 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> DONE......jeeze I'm beginning to sound like a Vengeance Demon...;) -- Rufus, 23:57:15 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> Re: I don't know about CutPR but... -- LittleBit, 09:04:56 05/04/02 Sat

Shadowkat's essays have 1.3 meg of my hard drive space, and I only have 11 gig left. :)

[> Xander, Anya and Respect (spoilers for Hell's Bells, Entropy) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 13:45:40 05/03/02 Fri

Xander's excuse for breaking off the wedding also shows a lack of respect for Anya. He said that he feared that he would become his father, hurt her. He thought that abandoning the wedding was the lesser evil.

If so, that's her choice to make, not his.

Xander's action removed from Anya her right to make an informed decision about her own future. He assumed that she wasn't wise enough or strong enough to deal with *potential* future problems in her own marriage.

Not much respect there, pardner.

The better choice would be to sit, have a long talk with her, but basically say "This is what I'm afraid of; this is the likelihood that this unpleasant result will happen; these are the options. What do you think?" He couldn't do that.

[> The Shadow and relationships in the Buffyverse -- Rufus, 00:13:35 05/04/02 Sat

It would be simple to say that they put Buffy and Spike together because they look good, same for Anya and Xander, what I see are couples that are working out the shadow aspects of themselves in a visible way through who they have chosen to sleep with. The reason there is less respect for the demon/ex-demon mates is that these choices in love and respect have dredged up things in Buffy and Xander that make them uncomfortable. Xander may make fun of Anya, but she is a mirror of the things he fears about himself, that vengeful nature that is just under the surface only to explode when his ex-demon lover has sex with someone else. Buffy also has issues with Spike that show that he reflects her fears about her own innate darkness and fears of being the same type of monster she seeks to rid the world of. The more that Buffy and Xander reject their Shadow mates the more dire the situation becomes. Anya and Spike are losing control because they have been rejected, left alone to assert their demon natures in an effort to be recognised. Just like with children who want their parents attention, Anya and Spike resort to negative actions to get attention..any attention. Respect, how can Buffy or Xander show true respect for others when they are so conflicted about themselves?

In Jungian terms, shadow represents the totality of the unconscious layers of the personality, which are transformed and integrated consciously, step by step, in the process of individuation.

What step do you think Buffy and Xander are in the process of integrating their shadow selves? Growing up means that we have to take a long hard look at ourselves and our beliefs, the shadow is only menacing if we give them the power to frighten us. Instead of seeing the negative in Anya and Spike, I wonder what posative aspects they have that will make Xander and Buffy again seek them out?

[> [> Brilliantly said, Rufus. Defintely something to ponder. -- Ixchel, 18:23:39 05/05/02 Sun

Geek culture question (Entropy) -- MaeveRigan, 13:44:41 05/03/02 Fri

From *Entropy* shooting script (thanks, Psyche):

Get back. You don't want to make me rush this.

Not impressed, Padawan. When do we hit paydirt?

Question: "Padawan"? Doubtless this, like most of the nerds' nicknames, comes from a comic book, sci-fi show, or movie, but it escapes me. One of you brilliant ATPoBtVS geeks (in the best possible sense of the word!), enlightenment, please?

[> It appears to be a Jedi apprentice -- Vickie, 13:50:06 05/03/02 Fri

google is my friend.

[> [> Thank you! -- MaeveRigan, 14:21:39 05/03/02 Fri

I guess I could have googled too, but this is so much more fun :) Plus, I get to share my ignorance and your wisdom with the world!

Thanks again!

[> [> [> wisdom? Hah! I just wondered, too. -- Vickie, 14:36:22 05/03/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: I feel much better now... -- MaeveRigan, 06:26:54 05/04/02 Sat

Apparently Danny Strong didn't know what it was either:

According to Wanda's lead-in to upcoming chat with him at E- online, "A Buffy writer recently stormed off because Danny didn't know what 'Padawon' meant."

Of course, as an actor, all he has to do is *be* it; it was Adam Busch's line, after all.

[> [> [> [> [> Question about Anya and Halfrek (spoiler for Entropy) -- Lonesome Sundown, 08:28:17 05/04/02 Sat

Just wondering, why didn't Anya get Halfrek to curse Xander? Maybe vengeance demons can only grant wishes to mortals?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Question about Anya and Halfrek (spoiler for Entropy) -- Doriander, 11:17:59 05/04/02 Sat

Been wondering about that too. But then, Spike isn't a mortal either. Earlier (check threads in the archives), it's suggested that for the wish to work, the one that does the wishing shouldn't know that he/she is making a wish to a vengeance demon. Which explains Anya's need to pull Hallie aside, and the necessity to get Spike drunk. Gives a new angle to Spike's reaction when Anya cuts him off in the end (don't what?). However, in "The Wish," we're told women have been summoning Anyanka for years, just as Giles did. If you summon a vengeance demon, then you must have knowledge of her trade. I suppose it's just another of those "puzzles."

[> [> [> [> [> [> Cause it doesn't follow the rules! -- Robert, 21:06:53 05/04/02 Sat

>> "Just wondering, why didn't Anya get Halfrek to curse Xander?"

Anya cannot make the wish herself, not because she isn't allowed to curse her own wish, but because employees of D'Hoffryn are not permitted to make the wishes. Thus Halfrek can't make the wish either.

Obviously this is just my own wild ass speculation, but it was fun anyway.

Willow, Tara, and sin. (Spoilers for S6 within.) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 18:34:50 05/03/02 Fri

(It's possible that this subject has been addressed earlier, as I've not read all entries. My apologies if this is the case.)

Let's consider the events that led to the break up of Willow and Tara.

Willow and Tara had an argument about Willow's use of magic; this caused sufficient hard feelings that Tara did not want intimacy (and sex) with Willow that evening. Willow used magic to make Tara forget both the argument and her anger; the result was, shall we say, what Willow wanted. (Psyche's Transcripts: All the Way.)

So what we have is sex " . . . where the person is incapable of giving consent . . . It is not consent if the (person) is under the influence of drugs or alcohol, asleep, ill, or lacks language skills." In other words --


Per California Penal Code Section 263.

And Willow does not even realize that that is what she has done.

We are not used to thinking of shy insecure little geeker girls as being rapists. But Willow, in the Buffyverse, has powers far greater than any big burly brutal guy. She has used them to gain sex without the voluntary affirmative consent of Tara.

While the provisions in this section 263 of the California Penal Code do not mention magic, if the latter did exist, and was used to obtain sex without the completely willing consent of the other (read Tara), then it would clearly fall into this category. Tara loved and trusted Willow and Willow abused this trust. I contend that this is one of the greatest sins recorded to date in the Buffyverse.

In so doing for Tara to return to Willow at all is a phenomenal act of forgiveness.

I should point out that I like both the actress Alyson Hannigan and the character of Willow has been one of my favorites on the show for years. It's not personal. I was shocked.

Am I misinterpreting this? Comments?

[> What you've pointed out is really important and I'm glad you did. -- can I be Anne?, 20:43:04 05/03/02 Fri

[> Disagree -- Sophist, 08:44:52 05/04/02 Sat

First, you're merely assuming that there was sex. The scene showed them cuddling in bed; it did not show sex. Since they very obviously did have sex in several other eps, I don't think we should assume it here.

Second, there are several different levels of legal consent and definitions. The code section you cite has changed, and rape is now defined by Section 261. The discussion of consent (which you mention) occurs in the context of legal ability to give consent. This means, essentially, some long term inability to give legally binding consent such as being under age, being insane, etc.

The new section which might apply states (I'm paraphrasing) that rape occurs if the victim is unable to give consent by reason of an anesthetic or intoxicant. Here the question gets more complicated. In one sense, Tara was clearly capable of giving consent. All of her faculties were operating. She was like an amnesiac. In another sense, of course, she might not have wanted sex at that particular time. Since there is no drug which mimics the forget spell, it's hard to know what the law might do.

It is clear to me that Willow did not cast the spell for the specific purpose of having sex; it was for the more general purpose of "making things right". Given that, calling it rape seems unduly harsh.

[> [> I agree... -- Slain, 09:53:02 05/04/02 Sat

...With Sophist, that is. To be honest, I didn't want to step on Can I be Anne?'s toes, as this is clearly a very personal issue for her.

While there are obvious parallels between Willow and the Nerds, and between Jonathan in 'Superstar', I think there are very important differences. Tara considered it a violation, but certainly not rape; and I am sure that the show was not implying that it was. Theft is by far a more apt comparison, as Willow stole memories from Tara, thus she felt the sense of violation that someone feels after a burglary. To be blunt, the issue of sex is irrelevant.

[> [> [> Let's take another look at this (spoiler for All the Way) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 15:00:08 05/04/02 Sat

Point: It certainly seemed to me that sexual contact was strongly implied.

Perhaps that section has been superseded; but let's look at it in terms of reality. Had Willow surreptiously given Tara a drug to make her feel comfortable and euphoric, then had had sexual contact with her under that influence, current law would, in my view, consider that rape. The fact that that particular means is not covered under current law does not change the nature of the act. Still rape in my book.

[> [> [> [> Re: Let's take another look at this (spoiler for All the Way) -- Slain, 15:56:13 05/04/02 Sat

You're welcome to consider it rape if you want; Tara doesn't, and neither is the show expecting us to, so that's enough for me. I think you're being caught up in the similarities between Warren and Katrina; the parallels are there, but that's all they are - parallels.

[> [> [> [> To me, the distinction -- Sophist, 20:02:37 05/04/02 Sat

between a general euphoria drug and the spell is this: the former affects one's judgment in all respects, so that the victim may be unaware even of the act itself, or of the true identity of the perpetrator, or may be incapable of making rational decisions; the spell did not affect any of these capacities. Tara was still in full possession of her ability to know if there was sex, to know that it was Willow, and to make rational decisions. This distinction between capacity and knowledge is important in the law in many areas.

I also think it important that Willow clearly did not cast the spell with the intent or for the purpose of having sex. Even if sex did occur, which still seems doubtful to me.

[> [> [> [> Rape vs. RAPE; Assault not theft. -- Simon A., 05:40:39 05/05/02 Sun

What we have here is a classic example of the conflict between those who would have a broad versus a narrow definition of rape. There is a tendency to expand the definition of rape to include, "got drunk, had sex, thought it was a bad idea in the morning." This is the sort of definition used in surveys on college campuses that result in headlines like, " One out of three women have been raped!" This despite the fact that a much smaller percentage of respondents would self-describe themselves as having been raped. Of course in the past, any woman under the age of 21 who had sex outside of marriage was raped. Please note, I'm NOT trying to minimize the trauma or prevalance of date rape, merely knowing somebody hardly constitutes consent to sex. Rape is such a charged word, and such a serious crime because, evolutionary speaking, it carried the chance of forcing somebody to raise a child on their own.

How do we decide at what level of imparrment a bad idea becomes rape? Ten drinks or two? Warren's complete overriding of 'Trina's personality, or Willow's changing of Tara's actions by removing the memories her decisions are based on.

Irrespective of whether they had sex or not, it certainly constituted assault. Theft is property crime. If Willow had strapped Tara down and given her ECT or a lobotomy we wouldn't be comparing it to a property crime.

Whether Willow was "under the influence" of her addiction, and won't backslide or has simply "learned her lesson," and won't do it ever again, she still assaulted Tara. The first means that she is less guilty, but the second probably a safer person to be around. Is this a case of love conquers all, or an abusive relationship? Tara would have to decide if she can forgive Willow. I'm not sure I could.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Rape vs. RAPE; Assault not theft. -- skeeve, 08:34:10 05/06/02 Mon

Willow's action was at the least aggravated assault or whatever the term is in California.

I think we were supposed to infer that there was sex.
If so, whether it was rape in the legal sense, would depend upon the precise definiton. Some major interpreting would probably be needed. A judge, for the purpose of deciding the validity of consent, might equate Willow's action with lying and find that it was not rape. A judge, for the purpose of deciding the validity of consent might equate Willow's action with beating consent out of Tara and find that it was rape. A judge for the purpose of deciding the validity of consent, might need to decide what sort of `mental defect' invalidates consent.

My recollection is that some of those surveyed college students did not necessarily call being held down and forced to have sexual relations rape.

It seems to me that if one asks for sex in part because of a belief that the prospect is drunk enough to say yes, then any resulting sex is at least attempted rape. Trying to kill someone who turns out to be already dead is still attempted murder.

Whether or not I would have sex with Willow, I wouldn't sleep with her.

[> [> Re: Disagree -- Malandanza, 17:01:18 05/05/02 Sun

"First, you're merely assuming that there was sex. The scene showed them cuddling in bed; it did not show sex. Since they very obviously did have sex in several other eps, I don't think we should assume it here."

Some time passes for the characters between most episodes. If you say that there was no sex the night Willow cast the amnesia spell, I disagree, but it is certainly plausible that Willow had enough of a sense of shame not to press for sex. However, the amnesia spell wasn't short term -- to say that Willow took a vow of celibacy after erasing Tara's memories is, I think, unsupported by her character development. In Season Three, she was impatient with Oz's slow advances. In Season Four's Wild at Heart Oz's rebuffing of her sexual advances sends her into a panic. Even in Season Six we get the impression that sex is a very important part of the relationship for Willow:

(to herself)
WILLOW: Hi, um... Tara. How are you? I was wondering... do you want to go out sometime? For coffee? Or food? Or kisses and gay love?

Normal Again (Psyche's Transcripts)

So I'd say that at some point after the spell, Willow and Tara had sex that would not have been of Tara's choosing had she been in full possession of her memories.

"It is clear to me that Willow did not cast the spell for the specific purpose of having sex; it was for the more general purpose of "making things right". Given that, calling it rape seems unduly harsh.

I don't think it was an accident that the Willow/Tara scene took place in All the Way -- the Buffy episode about the evils of date rape. In Dawn's case, in spite of her naivete, and the mixture of social and physical pressures (17 yr old boy and a 15 yr old girl) she was still able to say no (although that wouldn't have mattered had it not been for the timely intervention of Buffy, Spike and Giles); in Tara's case, she was never given the opportunity to say no. I see Tara/Willow as very close to Katrina/Warren. Warren's big problem seems to have been one of lack of finesse -- had he surgically removed the memories involving April, Katrina might have had sex with him of her own "free will". I doubt anyone would defend Warren under those circumstances the way you are defending Willow, nor would they consider Katrina/Warren sex in such a circumstance as consentual. Similarly, if Xander were to cast a spell to remove all wedding related memories (including that there had ever been an engagement) to get Anya back, he would be condemned out of hand as a rapist.

I can't see any Willow's attack on Tara's free will as anything but evil.

[> [> [> Oh, it was very evil. Just not rape. -- Sophist, 18:37:18 05/05/02 Sun

Your first point is entirely right -- the spell did last long enough for them to have sex (fairly explicitly shown in OMWF).

I'm not at all denying the evil of the spell, just don't think rape is the right word. The closest analogy to real life I can think of is this: Suppose my wife badly wants me to do something. I'm lazy and don't want to do it. That evening, she asks me if I've done it. I'm tired and don't want to fight, so I lie and tell her I did it. Before she can catch me in my lie (whether that night or any other night), we do as couples do and have sex. Now, if I hadn't told the lie, she would have been mad, we would have had a fight, and we would not have had sex. However, I didn't tell the lie for that purpose; I just didn't want to fight. My conduct is deplorable, but it's not rape. IMHO.

[> [> [> [> My last contribution to the topic; spoilers for much of S6 -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 18:56:08 05/05/02 Sun

There is a difference, and I think the law recognizes it, between manipulating someone through control of information before it enters their brain and manipulating their brain by chemicals to produce the result you desire. If you lie to your wife for the purpose of sex it's not rape. (I would argue it's not a good idea under any circumstances, and certainly a breach of trust; but then again I've never been married.) If you affect your wife's brain by drugs for the same purpose it is rape. Given the parameters of the Buffyverse, where it's possible to manipulate someone's brain by magic, such an act would also, in my view, constitute rape.

I actually hadn't thought of the comparison between Warren/Katrina and Willow/Tara, but it is appropriate. In "Dead Things", Warren used his mind-control ray to turn Katrina into a sex-slave. In "All the Way,", Willow uses magic to manipulate Tara's memories, for the purposes of both intimacy and sex. The magic removed from Tara her own will, her own ability to make a freely-informed choice on intimacy.

So is Warren evil because he used technology for purely exploitative purposes, and Willow forgiven because her use of Tara was accomplished by magic, and that at other times she had genuine feelings for Tara? I see the latter as an aggrevating, not mitigating, factor.

But then I've always reacted very irrationally to betrayal.

I think lots of the reaction comes from our old memories of Willow as a vulnerable, flawed, but basically kind and heroic character. Had another person committed the same act in the same way, we would, I think, judge him/her more harshly.

Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say, for all the Spuffy- shippers out there, that Spike has (as I believe) genuine feelings for Buffy. If he found some magic means to make her forget he was a vampire, and (all else being equal) established a close emotional and physical relationship with her on that basis, would we not see that as rape? If Anya, towards the end of "Hell's Bells," had cast some spell on Xander to make him forget about his parents' catastrophic failings, and had Xander gone ahead with the marriage on that basis, would that also not be rape?

So why is Willow off the hook?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: My last contribution to the topic; spoilers for much of S6 -- Claire, 19:45:35 05/05/02 Sun

Tara did accuse Willow of having violated her so the comparision to rape can be made. And in Tara's position I would have stayed the hell away from Willow as I would never feel comfortable being with someone with the ability to wipe my brain. I do think Willow owes Tara a big apology and there are a lot more issues to be worked out.
But Willow and Tara were in a happy relationship and the situation wasn't the same as Warren using mind control on Katrina who he had no respect for.
But on the other hand Willow was picking and choosing the memeries she allowed Tara to keep and the book Tara checked in actually said mind control so it's clear the show did view the event seriously.
But Willow didn't. I don't believe she has ever expressed genuine remorse and closely examined her actions. She promises Tara she would not interfere with her mind again in TR but had no intention of keeping her word. She eventually gave up magic becasue she believed she was a victim of it. She begged Buffy to help her in Wrecked and admitted she was out of control. But she didn't blame her own personality for that or address the choices she made. She just claimed to be hocked on the euphurio of magic. So Willow has not suffiently dealt with her issues in my mind. She has portrayed herself as the victim ignoring all of the things she did and the way she manipulated magic. Willow did have power and the addiction aspect always striked me as an easy way out of an upleasant situation for Willow who hates being seen as the bad guy.
But although someone messing with your brain is very disturbing I would say rape is far worse than someone stealing your memories which is why I don't ultimately class what Willow did as rape (athough it wasn't just a case of lying to Tara for sex as someone else in the thread suggested, she did use her power to change Tara's will to her liking).
I don't think Jonathon committed rape either in Superstar as I believe someone suggested. I saw that situation as being comparable to guys bragging about their wealth to impress ladies. Jonathon created an illusion of himself as being better than he was but it was women's choice to sleep with him. Warren did commit rape as he took away Katrina's will and her sense of self completely. She had no way of saying no, unlike Tara awho could still choose not to have sex if she so desired. Willow took away the information Tara needed to make an informed decision but she did not take away Tara's self and her right to say no. Just my perspective.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Willow's victim hangup -- yuri, 20:53:15 05/06/02 Mon

You're right about Willow's victim complex, she can't take responsibility for anything bad she's done. "The addiction aspect always struck me as an easy way out of an upleasant situation for Willow who hates being seen as the bad guy." Very much so. She's always making comments like "Who, little old me?" and of course she's famous for opening her eyes real wide and innocent and all, and that just makes her victim thing that much more debilitating and diffucult to confront.

I actually hadn't thought the W/T reunion at all false until I really considered this point, because Willow acted all tail-between-her-legs-y throughout the entire makeup process. I kind of let that replace any actual comprehension and profession of guilt and remorse on her part. Hah, now I am also forced to wonder anxiously if this will be adressed or not, if that despised addiction thing will really couch it all. Ignorance is bliss, b/c if I hadn't thought about this I wouldn't have gotten any cues about lasting dissention or unresolvedness from the last eps. Which, of course, implies that this will be overlooked. I won't be that annoyed if it is, I'm sure there's some way to analyze it so that it makes it right. Lol. Funny, that.

P.S. If anyone knows of some good archived threads discussing Willow as victim thing, could you point me in the right direction?

P.P.S. Can I be Anne, if you're reading this, could you let me know if you read the post I wrote back to yours? I just want you to know where I'm coming from.

[> [> [> [> Unkindness has no remedy at law........ -- Rufus, 00:09:49 05/06/02 Mon

I always remember that quote when someone wants to put a purely legal term to an emotional situation that can't be properly appreciated in legal terms. In the dictionary rape has three basic meanings

rape (rp)n.

1: The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

2:The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.

3:Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.

Most people only see rape as one person forcing another to submit to sex acts, where in the Buffyverse it can mean that and much violation of trust. If we only see rape in sexual terms, or in a way that we can only think of how to label it so there can be a proper punishment, then we fail to see how what people do to each other is more frequently dealt with consequences unrelated to any criminal justice system. I think of the actions of Willow much like I see that quote "unkindness has NO remedy at law" it's life that metes out punishment, and we know how unfair life can be.

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