May 2002
posts
Something that
just occurred to me about S6 Finale (spoilers) --
AngelVSAngelus, 23:04:44 05/30/02 Thu
Having witnessed her lovers death, Willow Rosenburg has opted
for getting even and absorbed all of the dark magicks she could
get her hands on to do so. Now, dosed with dangerous and potently
consuming power, and fueled by rage and her grief for poor Tara,
Willow's score card reads one down, two to go.
Buffy and the gang try to stop her, while having some
epiphanies of their own along the way. Giles appears in the nick
of time to save his friends and have a heart to heart catch up
session.
But it seemed, despite all of these developments in the
characters, that something was missing. I just realized, like, 2
minutes ago what I felt it was : Tara.
Yeah, I know, kind of hard for a deceased to be active in
current events, but aside from a few comments about her memory
(Xander's self deprecation and Giles' "I'm so sorry" to a bound-by-
magic Willow) it seemed as if her wake was... weak.
I also know the episode was supposed to be Willow centric in
focus, so I can probably over look and accept this. I still enjoy
the finale to death, but I must find it rather odd that Buffy and
Giles, as great as the scene is, can burst into laughter at the
absurdity of recent times, when said times include the death of a
dear friend. Confusing...
Anyone agree? disagree? Just want to smack me?
[>
OH, and... -- AngelVSangelus, 23:06:05 05/30/02
Thu
I forgot to make my comparison to Joyce's death. Her presence, or
lack thereof, was GREATLY felt in the body. In contrast, I don't
feel Tara at all in TTG or Grave.
[> [>
Re: OH, and... -- LittleBit, 06:51:57 05/31/02 Fri
There was a significant difference betweent the two events. If
Joyce's unexpected death had resulted in Buffy, the Slayer, trying
to exact vengeance on everyone at the hospital, the emergency
personnel, the morgue staff because someone had not treated
Joyce's condition correctly and had lied to her that she would be
fine, overriding all the arguments that Giles, Willow and Xander
would be throwing at her, then I think there wouldn't have been
the same depth of reaction to the loss of Joyce expressed
immediately after the event.
Before anyone can truly take the time to realize the loss of Tara
and mourn for her, they must prevent Willow from destroying
the world in her rage. Only afterward will they have the leisure
to feel. Only Willow may have moved from raging pain to the pain
of grief and sorrow at the very end.
[>
Re: Something that just occurred to me about S6 Finale
(spoilers) -- Dochawk, 23:18:46 05/30/02 Thu
It was one of the things that made the end ring false to me a
little. Buffy laughs that she wants to see her friends happy.
Well Tara, a close confidante is dead and she hasn't even begun to
comprehend that and her best friend, Willow has just murdered
someone and come close to destroying the world. Buffy may have
had a great epiphany, but laughing with joy?????
[> [>
Oh, I so disagree! (spoilers) -- Marie, 01:34:50
05/31/02 Fri
The laughter was tension-relief. I totally understand that. When
things just get too much, you have to have some release, or you'd
collapse. Some years ago, I had a fit of laughter - at my
grandmother's funeral. I covered my face with my hands and my
sister wrapped her arms around me in a hug, thinking I was crying.
To this day, I've never enlightened her! I wasn't happy, you
understand, and at the time I was young and embarassed at
laughing, though now I understand why I did it.
As for Tara, well, come on, be fair! Buffy was trying to save
Willow from herself, and the Geeks and her friends, not to mention
the world, from Willow. After being shot! If she'd allowed
herself time to think of Tara's death, on top of everything else,
she may well have collapsed under the weight of her
responsibilities... Only a few hours has passed, after all. I'm
sure she'll grieve, once she's seen that Willow has come back to
them, as will they all.
Marie
[> [> [>
Me, too! (spoilers) -- cjc36, 05:12:38 05/31/02
Fri
From the end of Villians to the conclusion of Grave took, I think,
the rest of that night into sunrise of the next morning, when
Willow tried to raise the temple. This isn't enough time to
grieve. Plus, Buffy is much closer to Willow. Tara's death would
be crushing, but her immediate duty/thought was to console and
save her best friend from being consumed by darkness.
Plus I forgive Buffy and Co. for having a smile at the end. Gads,
they just saved Willow - and the whole world. Grieving for Tara
would come off screen later that day.
[> [> [>
Re: Oh, I so disagree! (spoilers) -- Cactus Watcher,
05:41:47 05/31/02 Fri
Sadness is not all there is to grieving. It's emotional overload.
If you've never been through the worst of it, it's hard to
understand. As Marie says sometimes tension builds up to the
point where there has to be some kind of release. Sometimes it's
in tears, sometimes it's not. The least little thing can set a
seriously grieving person into gales of laughter. Then when the
person realizes how ridiculous it seems to be laughing at a time
like that, they laugh even more; at themselves and the whole
situation. It's normal and it's healthy.
[> [> [> [>
Famous example from classic American TV -- CW,
06:20:04 05/31/02 Fri
There is an episode of the old Mary Tyler Moore show in which the
clown who works at the TV station is killed in a ridiculous
accident befitting a clown. Mary is horrified that right after
the death, everyone at work is laughing and talking about the
accident instead of grieving for the man. Then at the funeral
when everyone else has settled down, Mary's emotions overflow and
she disrupts the service with her laughter.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Famous example from classic American TV --
auroramama, 13:18:53 06/01/02 Sat
Funny, I was just thinking of MTM while watching the FX Buffy
rerun yesterday -- the ep with the troll god. Buffy breaks down
and cries with happiness over Xander and Anya's successful
relationship -- actually, she comes close to it a couple of times
in the ep -- and there was something about the scene that made me
thing, "Mary Richards!" Anyone else?
auroramama
[> [> [> [>
Re: Oh, I so disagree! (spoilers) -- JBone, 21:16:48
05/31/02 Fri
A few years ago I was a pallbearer at my nephews funeral. Almost
all of my brothers family came from out of town (including me)
while my sister in law's family was always there for her. It was
a brutal couple of days, all of us being pulled together for such
a grim occasion, but the night of the funeral, it was almost like
we lost our place in time. I took my place as one of the middle
children, trying to make everyone laugh, and they did. I don't
for a second believe I was any funnier that night than any other,
but we all needed the catharthis (there I go throwing big words
around) of laughter. Nothing, except for maybe nothing, heals
faster or better than laughter.
Is it inappropriate at times? Yeah, probably, but if it wasn't,
it wouldn't do as good as a job as it does when it isn't. Does
that make sense?
[>
I agree with A v A and Doc -- Sophist, 08:08:36
05/31/02 Fri
The laughter scene didn't bother me, but I did feel that her
departure was lost in the other events. Even in SR, our attention
was directed to B/S and not Tara. That's sad.
[>
Another way of looking at it - think her absence was
intentional (Spoilers to Grave!& Benediction) -- shadowkat,
17:28:22 05/31/02 Fri
Tara does appear to be forgotten in the midst of Willow's
vengeance spree.
This made horrible sense to me. And I think it's intentional and
therefore brillant thematically.
Tara's death is horrible, but Willow pushes it aside, instead of
grieving or remembering Tara, Willow makes Warren
and the Trioka the center of attention. That's what vengeance does
- the victim fades, is forgotten, while the killer becomes the
center of attention. In Angel - Holtz doesn't remember his family
so much as he remembers Angelus, it has become all about Angelus.
Connor burns holtz's body, desecrates it, and buries it - focusing
all his attention on Angelus. Willow leaves Tara's body in a heap
on the carpet - all of her attention on vengeance. Tara as a
result becomes a footnote to everyone surrounding Willow - because
Willow has made it all about her need for justice, her revenge.
She doesn't even tell Buffy or Xander Tara is dead until they try
to stop her from killing Warren and she throws it at them like an
excuse. Warren has become more important to Willow than Tara and
as a result more important to Buffy and Xander. That's the point -
that's what revenge does. It doesn't bring back the loved one - it
pushes them aside, to
make room for the vengeance, so they fade from view like
Tara.
Notice how the only one who sits with Tara is Dawn. Just as
Dawn notices Spike is gone and constantly mentions him. Dawn
feels the absence of both foster parents deeply. Dawn mourns
Tara. Dawn mentions Tara to Willow. The child sees what the
adults don't - that somewhere within all the violence...they've
forgotten what was important. They've forgotten Tara.
It was quite effective. Because that's what Death is = absence.
You're supposed to feel the absence, the negative space. And
Revenge can't fill
it - all revenge does is shift the focus to the killers or
perpetrators. The only thing that can fill the negative
space left by death is memories of the beloved. This is
clearly shown in The Body - with the flashback scenes.
And later in Forever. Season 5. Two to go and Grave tragically
show what happens when we go after vengeance instead.
[> [>
Good points. -- Sophist, 19:13:30 05/31/02 Fri
Anya Who and where
-- skeeve, 09:44:12 05/31/02 Fri
Does Anya have a last name that we have heard?
Does anyone know whether Anya was homeless between the time she
lost her powers and she started living with Xander? It's not
obvious that she had any money.
[>
Re: Anya Who and where -- Deeva, 10:07:53 05/31/02
Fri
I think her she said her last name was Emerson but don't know
anything about where she was living.
[> [>
Re: Anya Who and where -- LittleBit, 10:15:30 05/31/02
Fri
The only time I recal Anya giving a last name was in Checkpoint:
"Anya Christina Emanuella Jenkins, twenty years old. Born on the
fourth of July, and don't think there weren't jokes about that my
whole life, mister, 'cause there were. "Who's our little patriot?"
they'd say, when I was younger, and therefore smaller and shorter
than I am now."
Quote c/o Psyche
[> [> [>
Oh well. The old brain is playing tricks again. -- Deeva,
10:52:38 05/31/02 Fri
[> [> [>
That was meant to be a joke. -- Maroon Lagoon,
15:14:14 05/31/02 Fri
Her last name is Emerson.
She made up that story to appear like the typical girl next door,
since she thought the Council might not like an ex-demon.
"Willow's a demon?!"
[> [> [> [>
The Emerson/Jenkins debate -- d'Herblay, 15:45:56
05/31/02 Fri
At the risk of ruffling some feathers and provoking a great flame
war over Anya's last name, I'd like to point out, as has been
pointed out late in the threa
d following dubdub's Anya Anniversary Post, that the name
"Emerson" appears nowhere in any aired dialogue. A Google site search on Psyche's
transcripts reveals that the only appearances of "Emerson"
are in the cast lists for the transcripts of "No Place Like
Home" and "Fool for Love." The sources of the belief that Anya's
last name is "Emerson" are The Watcher's Guide, Vol. Two
and The Sunnydale High School Yearbook. I take a
parsimonious attitude with canon: if it's not on screen, I can
ignore it. Mutant Enemy actually went through some acrobatics to
avoid revealing the name Anya uses on her taxes (and exactly which
name she made she'll trade for Xander's) in "Tabula Rasa," so I
doubt we'll ever have a satisfactory answer. (I'm sticking with
"Nka.")
[> [> [> [> [>
I always wondered where "Emerson" came from.
Thanks, d'Herblay. -- Ixchel, 16:15:57 05/31/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [>
You're welcome! -- d'Herblay, 21:49:08 05/31/02
Fri
Now I'm off to recalibrate my humor detectors!
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Emerson/Jenkins debate -- Maroon Lagoon,
17:11:10 05/31/02 Fri
Regardless of whether Emerson is canonical, I will say with
certainty that her name is not Jenkins unless you also think she
was really born on the 4th of July and was teasingly called a
patriot as a kid, despite the U.S. not existing 1100-some years
ago.
Re-calibrate your humor-detectors, kiddos!
[>
Anya Christina Emanuella Jenkins (Checkpoint, S5) --
Ixchel, 10:17:57 05/31/02 Fri
That's the name she gave the CoW anyway.
I believe she had a setup of money (must have been quite a bit)
and an apartment (which we see for the first time, IIRC, in TR,
S5) from the time of TW (S3), but by S5 (NPLH) she's almost out of
money ("I'm sorry. I'm nearly out of money. I've never had to
afford things before and it's making me bitter."). It's in this
episode Giles offers her a job.
Hope that's helpful.
Ixchel
[>
We also see her apartment in ITW. -- Dyna, 13:00:53
05/31/02 Fri
She had quite a lovely bedroom, if I remember right. I think she
had the same decorator as Spike.
My analysis of
"Tomorrow" is up -- Masquerade, 12:33:24 05/31/02
Fri
Here.
Highlights: A
skeptical interpretation of Cordelia's "new mission"
Two to Go and Grave coming soon!
[>
Thanks Masq -- Rufus, 14:34:08 05/31/02 Fri
[> [>
? to Masq, about the pics. -- VampRiley, 17:29:42
05/31/02 Fri
Why is it that some portions of your analyses include pics while
others don't. I've noticed that after some time has passed,
certain portions get a pic or two added to them. Is it just 'cause
you only have those particular pics and want to try to have some
sort of visual representation to go along with what you have
written and try to show what you can, like adding one of Groo (I'm
not sure you had one of before) and thought now would be a good
time to have one of him? The pics at the top seem to change based
on the story arcs that are on the page. The pics of the crib was
replaced with Stephen. Is that why?
Perplexed in philly
[> [> [>
And in case your wondering why, it's been along couple of
days & I'm bored. -- VR, 17:32:36 05/31/02 Fri
So, these types of questions usually come out of my skull from
somewhere.
[> [> [> [>
Re: And in case your wondering why, it's been along couple of
days & I'm bored. -- Masq, 08:22:17 06/01/02 Sat
My general policy is to have as few pictures as possible because
of band width issues. But I must have close to 300 pics on the
server now.
I added a slew of pics to my site after the Meet the Posters was
updated because I had pics of characters the posters requested and
I wanted to use them on the site too since they were on the
server.
Other times, there are just pics I Iike, like Angel and Connor
both brooding in the hotel lobby. : )
I had to put the crib there before I knew how the story line was
going to go, then used a teen Connor pic to replace it. Generally
the pics at the top of the episode pages are the major "baddie" of
that series of episodes.
It's hard to get decent pics with the slayershow.com gone, so some
get updated slowly.
And I don't like to have 100 pictures of the same character, so
updating the BtVS episode pages with pics has been slow this
season.
But yeah, basically, it's I put up whatever I have.
[>
Skip wasn't manipulating her. -- Maroon Lagoon,
23:18:02 05/31/02 Fri
Skip never intended Cordelia to become an actress. Giving her a
choice between fame and fortune and a hard, thankless life of
fighting was a test to determine if she was worthy to ascend to
the higher plane. She chose to be demonified, which was what Skip
had hoped all along. Why else would he be pleased with her choice
and tell her "It was an honor being your guide, Cordelia
Chase"?
Then Skip tells her that her glowy power was an even bigger test
from TPTB that she passed. The whole thing had been planned from
the start.
I think you might be overstating the part about the visions not
being under her control. The two glowy incidents weren't dangerous
or reckless and didn't do anything Cordy wouldn't have done
deliberately if she had known she could. Skip tells her she used
the power well, and he understands it better than she does. I
would guess that that means the glowing was activated
subconsciously or instinctually by Cordy and still reflected her
true nature and intentions. (Imagine if, say, Lilah was able to
glow. Voluntary or not, it would still manifest in a way that
reflected who Lilah was as a person.)
"Meanwhile, [Angel] is sinking into a literal abyss, and [Wesley]
is sinking into an emotional abyss. Cordelia decides that the life
she is leaving behind will somehow come out all right without
her."
Cordelia had no idea that Angel was trapped in the coffin. As far
as she knew, everything in Angel's life was sunny and fine: Holtz
had been gotten rid of, Connor had returned to the family. Angel
had given up the love of his life three years ago and is still
doing fine. Why would Cordy's leaving devastate Angel any more
than his leaving Buffy had? Their romance is just beginning, and
might never reach the intensity of B/A. And since we would have
heard about it by now if Charisma Carpenter's contract hadn't been
renewed, she's still a main character of S4, and will probably
still interact with the AI gang (Skip is from another dimension
and he still comes and goes as he pleases), so it's not like she
has abandoned Angel permanently. And Fred and Gunn are in their
own world. They don't depend on Cordelia. Do they even talk to
her?
And as for Wesley, everyone abandoned him, not just Cordelia.
She's had at least a month and a half to do something about Wes,
but hasn't even seen or spoken to him. I don't think ascending or
not would make any difference as far as Wesley's story is
concerned.
This final test is the same as the actress test: is Cordy willing
to forgo happiness in her personal life for the sake of a grander
cause? I say yep and can't wait to see how it turns out.
[> [>
We'll have to wait and see... -- Scroll, 11:59:57
06/01/02 Sat
...if Skip was really manipulating Cordelia or not regarding her
new-found powers and status as a higher being. I'm not sure I like
where the story is going with Cordy's ascension, but I'm willing
to wait until next season before I make any judgements.
But I have to admit, I'm very disappointed in Cordelia's character
(not her portrayal by Charisma, but Cordelia herself) in the way
she has totally ignored Wesley. I'm not asking Cordelia to forgive
Wes, or even take him back just yet... But here we have Cordy,
Queen of Speaking Her Mind and Demanding Responses, and she
doesn't even take the time to go yell at Wesley? I think when Wes
was first released from the hospital, he would've welcomed any
interaction with the AI gang, even if it was just Cordelia chewing
him out for playing lone wolf. But Cordy doesn't even give two
hoots for Wesley, and that just doesn't seem to be fitting with
her character.
Cordelia has claimed over and over that Angel and Wesley are her
family, yet she doesn't even bother to take the time to question
Wesley about his actions in Sleep Tight? Cordelia has become so
wrapped up in Angel that she doesn't see anything beyond him. And
that's partly why I think her ascension was such an uncomfortable
fit for where she was as a person during Tomorrow. Here she is,
one-track mind Cordy going to meet the man she loves, and suddenly
she realises that giving up love itself is what she needs to do?
She ascends to become a higher being? I don't know, maybe I'm not
seeing the big picture, but something in her scene with Skip
strikes me as very wrong...
[> [> [>
Re: We'll have to wait and see... -- MaeveRigan,
15:44:14 06/01/02 Sat
"something in her scene with Skip strikes me as very wrong..."
And very typical of the old Queen C, no? Although Skip presents
it to her as "a test," (and maybe it is--but did she pass it, or
fail?) I got the impression that what really appealed to Cordy was
the whole idea of herself as a "higher being."
Remember how thrilled she was to discover that she was Princess of
Pylea, how she hated to leave that behind? Half of Groo's appeal
(the half that didn't involve sex) was the way he worshipped her
as his "Princess." Cordelia has ALWAYS seen herself as a higher
being. I'm afraid that when Skip turned up on the freeway, she
was all too willing to assume that TPTB had finally recognized her
wonderfulness...but you just know that kind of pride is not going
to end well.
But yeah--can't wait to see how it all turns out.
[> [> [> [>
Stop doing the Dance of Cynicism -- Maroon Lagoon,
18:11:18 06/01/02 Sat
Queen C? She hasn't been Queen C in years. Remember how kind and
compassionate she has been to Fred this year (she encourages her
to go out into the world in TOGoM and comforts her in the elevator
in CN)? Queen C would never have done that (remember "who gave you
permission to exist?").
Maybe I'm doing the Dance of Naivete when it comes to Cordy's
motives, but I think she *is* a higher being, at least compared to
the typical shlub. Think of all the good she's done with AI; most
of it seems pretty selfless. Even when when Angel fired the crew,
She, Wes, and Gunn got a dinky little office and still helped
people the best they could.
Sure, she is excited to be princess, but she doesn't just revel in
decadence. She signed a proclamation to free the slaves. She tried
to convince the slaves she met personally not to kneel and be
servile, telling them they were not lowly -- they were just like
her. And when Groo offers to absorb the visions, she instantly
declines, telling him, "I can't give up my visions. They're a part
of who I am now.
They're an honor." She has the same choice in Birthday. I think
the point of these two incidents is that she's *not* just a ditzy,
self-serving glory-hound, but that she's chosen that she sincerely
wants to help people.
Angel tells the Conduit that Cordelia is weak, but that is BS.
Nobody who endures two years of agonizing visions is weak at all.
She's a lot stronger than Angel would have been - in the alternate
timeline, he's gone crazy after two years of the visions, and he's
part demon! No one would choose a life of constant danger, no
recognition, merely decent pay as opposed to riches, and the
prospect of friends and loved ones getting killed if they were not
a real hero deep down. It has just taken Cordy longer to realize
that this is who she really is.
Even if she has a little bit of pride, so what? I say she's earned
it. She's not the same person she was on Buffy. I know she's not
perfect, but she deserves more credit than she seems to be
getting.
And as for Wes, bah. Buffy and Giles shunned Jenny for a long time
after her betrayal. If forgiveness comes for Wes, it'll be a
looong way down the road. And why is the burden all on the others?
Wes himself tells Gunn that none of them should ever come to him
again.
I'm counting the months until the WB does the Dance of Season
Four.
The Witch, the Bitch
and Jailbait: “Female Empowerment” in S7? -- K-Dizzy,
13:16:40 05/31/02 Fri
Hey all you posters! This is my first time posting here, but I've
heard fantastic things about this crowd! Plus I loooove a good
discussion! Was pondering something....would love to know what
you think! :)
Sounds great on paper, but in practice- on this program- what does
"female empowerment" actually look like? JW’s original take:
pretty blonde female does not = automatic victim. In the real
world, empowerment also = financial independence, supportive
family/friends, control over one’s body, the freedom to make
personal/ professional life choices, etc. For S7, title character
Buffy already seems on her way to achieving said empowerment. She
has enough money and devoted supporters, slayer strength, and has
finally accepted (chosen) her destiny. As a warrior, Buffy also
usurps a traditional male claim to power: physical superiority.
BUT, what about Willow, Anya and Dawn? Their “power” has always
been (arguably) more stereotypically feminine in nature and when
THEY cross or tow the gender line, their path to future
“empowerment” appears to be far less certain…. Cute “sweet” Willow
went all-male medieval on Warren and Rack? Unacceptable! Scorned
harpy Anya trolled for Xander’s blood? Unforgivable! Lolita-esque
Dawn fitting all her “little girl parts” into increasingly
skimpier outfits? Hello, UPN male demographics!
More to the point: Willow’s magical ability developed alongside
her relationship with Tara. Now both are gone. In contrast, Anya
has regained her former status and can be seen as representing the
ruthless, implacable justice of the Greek Furies, incarnate. But
her power is feminine in its most negative aspect- the chaotic,
feared wrath of ancient goddesses. And Dawn is the Key and as
such, her innate power is a tabula rasa. Ah, the dangerous
mysteries of pretty little teenage girls!
So, WILL there be equal opportunity access to positive power in
the female Buffyverse in S7...?
- Was Willow’s power initially feminized, and how can she ever get
back what was lost?
- Actualized Female Fury: is this Anya’s fate- her only path to
empowerment?
- Dawn as the Key: “girl power” all the way, or will her power
transcend gender?
- OT: do the Men of Buffy need “female empowerment,” too? ;)
Addendum (additional food for thought):
"Time is what turns kittens into cats…." Hmm. The Watchers
Council. Taming the Slayer 'Kitty' for over a thousand years and
counting?? D’Hoffryn: Is
there a glass ceiling in the Vengeance/Justice business?
Wicca Covens: The Joy Luck Clubs of Magic? Men may borrow magic
(Giles), dabble in magic (Jonathan) and abuse magic (Ethan Rayne,
Rack). Gandalf be damned! Proper, Good Masterful magic means No
'Y' chromosomes??
From 93curr at C & S: “Willow's power went through three distinct
stages: 1. Grief, rage and vengeance- very specific tactical
strike… Anything in her way (cops, Buffy, Anya) was ignored or
pushed aside. 2. Drunk with power- after feeding off Rack
(masculine) her focus alters. Instead of ignoring her friends she
starts attacking them, bragging about how powerful she is and
annoyed that no one else can appreciate how "amazing" she has
become. 3. Gonna destroy the world - after feeding off the
coven's power (feminine) via Giles she strays from her own
insulated grief to feeling everyone else in the world's…. Well,
there's certainly an 'ends justifies the means' approach going on
here, so that's a point in the masculine column, but her focus
does get distracted by Xander… so he gets a point in the feminine
column (as do most of the guys in this show, really)."
[>
Hey! There is nothing 'little' about Dawn's girl parts
anymore. -- vampire hunter D, 14:22:06 05/31/02 Fri
And what would you wnat her to wear? Sorry she doesn't wear her
burqa more often, but her outfits are in line with what's in style
now. And her outfits aren't much different from Buffy, Willow, or
Cordelia's
not that I'm up on what teenage girls are wearing, so I could be
wrong.
[>
just a second... -- MayaPapaya9, 15:55:14 05/31/02
Fri
*Lolita-esque Dawn fitting all her “little girl parts” into
increasingly skimpier outfits?*
Let me just say that I hate Dawn with a passion. But I do love
her clothes and I object to them being called skimpy! I cannot
recall her ever wearing anything as skanky as stuff that Buffy
used to wear in her high school days. Dawn dresses very classy.
Too bad she's a complete moron...
-Maya
[> [>
LOL. Well said about the clothes MP. -- Sophist,
16:59:44 05/31/02 Fri
[>
Re: The Witch, the Bitch and Jailbait: “Female Empowerment”
in S7? -- Rahael, 20:00:57 05/31/02 Fri
Did you see the finale I saw? Was Anya really the representative
of implacable justice of the Greek furies? The Anya who tried to
stop Willow, the Anya who visited the geeks in prison and tried to
help them? Ok.
Did Willow really go 'all male medieval'? Unlike Lady Macbeht,
Willow did not ask to be unwomaned, nor to have the milk of human
kindness taken away. She was simply herself, Willow, with all
inhibitions gone and full of rage. Cos, BtVS does show women as
having aggressive tendencies. As well as being compassionate,
sweet, courageous, headstrong, dark, primal, humane and all sorts
of other things. And all those adjectives apply to the male
characters too.
For me, the most meaningful description of 'empowerment', which is
a word I've never really used anyway, would involve emotional
honesty, courage, and the taking of meaningful action in the
world. And this is something that is available for anyone in BtVS,
regardless of gender.
It's instructive to note that the only people who used the word
'bitch' to describe a woman in Season 6 is Warren, Spike and dark
Willow.
[> [>
Re: The Witch, the Bitch and Jailbait: “Female Empowerment”
in S7? -- shadowkat, 07:53:05 06/01/02 Sat
I agree with your post Rahael. Actually I love all your
posts...been lurking off and on lately.
"It's instructive to note that the only people who used the word
'bitch' to describe a woman in Season 6 is Warren, Spike and dark
Willow."
And what's interesting is they use it to describe the same
woman = Buffy.
1. Warren uses it while fighting her: "superbitch", he
refers to her in a misogynistic manner
2. Spike uses it in Africa while in pain, referring to her
in frustration and agnst. As if he can't bear to say her
name, until the very end of his trials. In some ways, it
was if his demon was calling her the bitch, while the man
at the end calls her Buffy.
3. Willow is similar to Spike - she calls Buffy bitch in
frustration, it's her dark side, her resentment, her anger.
So it's telling that she also uses it against Warren to point out
his misogyny.
Btw I saw Willow, Anya, Dawn and Buffy
as being incredibly powerful in these episodes. For awhile
I was actually rooting for Willow. And the Willow/Buffy fight
scene was one of the best I've seen, far better than
Faith/Buffy. Willow finally got to express her rage and
frustration at Buffy...after six years of suppression.
Anya was wonderful - she helped the geeks, was able to actually
protect them, conveyed Giles messages to Xander,
Dawn and Buffy and instead of staying with them, returned
to help and be a comfort to a dying Giles. That was a
strong non-Greek fury if I ever saw one.
[> [> [>
ahem...spoilers for s6 finale in post above -- anom,
22:06:32 06/01/02 Sat
[>
Are you sure the show isn't about Female Weakness? --
change, 06:29:22 06/01/02 Sat
Everyone believes BtVS is about female empowerment, but it could
easily be interpreted as portraying female weakness. First of
all, the female characters on the show are not really empowered.
Secondly, they are made to appear "empowered" by surrounding them
with weak male characters.
At this point, Buffy is anything but empowered. She has mediocre
high school grades, has dropped out of college, has no money, and
works for minimum wage at a fast food restaurant. She's on the
fast track to no where. Her character's strength is in fighting.
This is actually a negative attribute in today's world. It is the
resort of people who are too weak or incompetent to resolve their
problems in other ways.
Anya's position is not much better. She never even went to
college and does not seem to have any plans to. She's working the
cashier at a store. Unless Giles made her a partner in the
business (possible, but not very realistic), she has a low wage,
dead end job.
Willow seems to be the most successful of the women. She's
intelligent and doing very well in college. She seems to have a
chance for a good future. However, she is addicted to magic
[drugs], and has murdered someone (two if you count Rack).
Dawn has her problems too. She's doing badly in school, and is a
klepto. To be fair, you could argue that her problems are typical
for many teenagers.
Tara was portrayed as mostly positive, but she always struck me as
being a weak character.
So how are these women empowered? Well, they are empowered in the
same way Jonathan was empowered in Superstar. All of the male
characters are made weaker.
First of all, there are no good fathers in BtVS. Hank has
abandoned Buffy and Dawn. Tara's father is a red neck low life
with implied incestuous tenancies. Xander's father is a drunken
loser. Willow's father doesn't exist, or at least I can't
remember ever seeing him. The only positive father figure is
Giles, and he was made irrelevant over the 4'th and 5'th seasons,
and removed in season 6.
In a show that seems to equate empowerment with fighting ability,
Xander is the worst fighter of the group (even Dawn's better).
Xander has the traditional female role. He loves and supports the
other characters on the show unconditionally. Although, he is
very insecure about himself. Enough so that someone was able to
play on these insecurities to get him to leave Anya on the
alter.
Buffy's boyfriends have all been flawed. Angel/Angelus turned
into a monster after Buffy slept with him. Parker dumped her
after she slept with him. Riley, probably the strongest male
character on the show so far, got his strength through drugs and
implants. In other words, he had to cheat to be as strong as
Buffer. His character was portrayed as being wooden, and he had
trouble dealing with a strong Buffy when he had to give up his
implants and drugs. He dealt with Buffy's emotional distancing of
herself by betraying her by going to a vampire prostitute instead
of trying to work it out with her. And of course, there's Spike.
He had to be chipped (castrated) before he could even hang out
with the scoobies. When he dated Buffy, he abused her
emotionally, physically, and tried to rape her. The most positive
thing he did was to protect Dawn. Yet, he completely failed at
this in the Gift.
The other male characters are not much better. The Trio were
geeky losers who couldn't get a date. Ben was willing to doom the
Earth to an apocalypse to save his own hide. Ethan Rayne is a
sleazoid. Snider was a despicable little tyrant. The mayor was a
psychotic. Adam was a nonentity.
In this show about "Female Empowerment", the female characters are
all weak and very unempowered. They are made to appear strong by
surrounding them with even weaker male characters. Maybe Joss is
a misogynist deep down and he is really playing a nasty joke here.
I'll believe the show is about "Female Empowerment" when it has
strong female characters that have good jobs, a good chance for a
future, and are able to stand head to head with strong male
characters. Until then, BtVS is just a cute show to watch.
Flame me.
[> [>
Not FEMALE Weakness... it's about HUMAN weakness *nt* --
FriarTed,
08:27:37 06/01/02 Sat
[> [>
I'd call this a radical interpretation of the text. --
Sophist, 08:52:09 06/01/02 Sat
[> [> [>
Hey, I'm *Radical* change! -- change, 09:04:02
06/01/02 Sat
[> [>
Re: Are you sure the show isn't about Female Weakness? --
Ronia, 09:30:30 06/01/02 Sat
Okay, I see your point here. Some of the things you bring up are
valid, in fact almost all of them are. Two things first, 1) Anya
is a partener, not a cashier. and 2) High GPA rank does not equal
empowerment. There are people with graduate degrees driving
busses. Anya is over 1000 years old, endlessly energetic and
enthusiastic where her trade is concerned, and in possesion of an
enviable work ethic.
I don't think the show is about female empowerment. I wouldn't
want to watch it if it were. All of the characters are deeply
flawed, which serves to make them three dimensional rather than a
public service announcement. Flames aside, I think that the way
the men are represented is a fairly accurate representation of
what many men struggle with daily...in the last century or so,
they have lost their social identity and no longer know what is
expected of them..absentee fathers are a dime a dozen or haven't
you noticed. I disagree with Giles being represented as
weak...more like mission accomplished. He isn't Buffy's father, he
is her watcher. His job was to train her to fight vampires, and
she fights them very well. What more can be expected of him? His
semi-adoption of Buffy, Willow, and Xander was unprecedented in
his field of work, and frowned apon. He assumed much more
responsibility for their well being than their respective parents
would have been comfortable with had they been aware of it. His
loss was deeply felt by the group, he left and things promptly
went to Hell in a handbasket. The theme this year was growing up.
All of the characters have had to deal in one way or another with
their childish traits, shortcomings I bet they weren't even aware
existed until they were put to the test. This also smacks of
reality for me. Part of growing up is accepting that failure is a
part of life, and that learning to recover from failing is
invaluable.
Many of the instances of failure you mention were brought about by
circumstances beyond their control. For example, Buffy was doing
well in college, she left to care for her mother who was dying of
a brain tumor, and to protect her younger sister who was being
stalked by someone who intended to kill her. These acts are
noble, she had no possible way of knowing that her mother would
die, she herself would die, and apon being brought back to life
would be handed dilema's and responsibilities she was in no way
prepared for. A young woman in her early twenties takes on a
substantial debt, a teenager with trauma issues, a degrading job
with low pay and a friend battling an addiction...doesn't sound
weak to me. As a matter of fact, it was brought up between the
characters that because of her responsibilities, she may very well
be denied what Dawn will be free to attain. She is aware of this
price and still choses to pay it. This is sacrifice, not
weakness.
As for Tara being weak...rewatch the scene where Glory tortures
her. She doesn't even scream while her hand is being broken for
fear of what would happen to the people around them. Glory gives
her an ultimatum, tell me where the key is or I'll make you
insane. Insanity is what Tara fears most and knowing what it will
cost her (she has seen what is left over from Glory's brain suck)
she refuses to aid Glory in obtaining the identity of the key. Is
she weak because she cried? Is crying not allowed when someone
breaks your hand and makes you choose between self preservation
and martyrhood? Tara is dignified and responsible. She is also
humble and gentle in spirit. These are qualities I admire.
Well, I'm getting sorta long winded here. I won't go into further
detail on every character. Any thought anyone?
[> [> [>
Re: Are you sure the show isn't about Female Weakness? --
change, 18:21:28 06/01/02 Sat
I think that the way the men are represented is a fairly accurate
representation of what many men struggle with daily...in the last
century or so, they have lost their social identity and no longer
know what is expected of them..absentee fathers are a dime a dozen
or haven't you noticed.
I have to disagree with you on this. I think BtVS's portrayal of
men is very negative. I've only met a few men who were violent or
malicious. I've never known any women who were raped, or known
any man who raped anyone. I don't know any men who have abondoned
their children. I do know families who have divorced, but the
fathers try to spend as much time as they can with their kids.
Although I know that there are bad people out there, most people
(including men) that I know are good. In a realistic portrayal, I
would expect some of the scoobies to have good fathers, and there
to be some good men and women on the show.
I disagree with Giles being represented as weak...more like
mission accomplished. He isn't Buffy's father, he is her watcher.
His job was to train her to fight vampires, and she fights them
very well. What more can be expected of him?
I agree that Giles has been a reasonably good father figure for
Buffy, and he has done a good job as Buffy's watcher. My point
was that is was one of the few good male role models on the show
and now he's been removed from it. Buffy is working with the CoW
now, so it would make sense for them to keep Giles, or some other
Watcher, around to help her even if they can't control her
anymore. For the Watchers to leave Buffy unwatched seems a little
contrived.
Part of growing up is accepting that failure is a part of life
It is? Ugh!
Many of the instances of failure you mention were brought about by
circumstances beyond their control. For example, Buffy was doing
well in college, she left to care for her mother who was dying of
a brain tumor, and to protect her younger sister who was being
stalked by someone who intended to kill her. These acts are noble,
she had no possible way of knowing that her mother would die, she
herself would die, and apon being brought back to life would be
handed dilema's and responsibilities she was in no way prepared
for. A young woman in her early twenties takes on a substantial
debt, a teenager with trauma issues, a degrading job with low pay
and a friend battling an addiction...doesn't sound weak to me. As
a matter of fact, it was brought up between the characters that
because of her responsibilities, she may very well be denied what
Dawn will be free to attain. She is aware of this price and still
choses to pay it. This is sacrifice, not weakness.
Yes. Many of Buffy's problems were caused by things out of her
control and she is making sacrifices to help Dawn. You can also
argue that she is very successful at her main mission in life
which is fighting vampires and saving the world. On the other
hand, her whole degrading relationship with Spike was under her
control and she allowed him to abuse her emotionally and
physically. And whether she is making sacrifices for Dawn or not,
she is going nowhere as far as her career is concerned. I suppose
it depends upon how much importance you place on your career as to
whether having a good one is important.
However, the other problems the other scoobies have were under
their control. Willow has no one but herself to blame for her
addiction to magic. Xander's emotional issues were the root cause
of his break up with Anya.
As for Tara being weak...rewatch the scene where Glory tortures
her. She doesn't even scream while her hand is being broken for
fear of what would happen to the people around them. Glory gives
her an ultimatum, tell me where the key is or I'll make you
insane. Insanity is what Tara fears most and knowing what it will
cost her (she has seen what is left over from Glory's brain suck)
she refuses to aid Glory in obtaining the identity of the key. Is
she weak because she cried? Is crying not allowed when someone
breaks your hand and makes you choose between self preservation
and martyrhood? Tara is dignified and responsible. She is also
humble and gentle in spirit. These are qualities I admire.
Yeah, she did have an inner strength. She was a positive female
character. And the writers kept her in the background, and now
they've killed her off.
[> [>
Depends how you define 'empowerment' -- Rahael,
10:38:30 06/01/02 Sat
I don't define empowerment strictly in terms of money. Nor career.
One can have both and not be ...ugh, I don't want to use the word
empowered.
What I want to say is that Joss shows Buffy and the women as being
very emotionally strong. Buffy is able to make tough emotional
decisions, she's able to make good moral choices. In the
traditional meaning of the word, she is virtuous. And sometimes,
it is worth giving up worldly success to be 'virtuous'.
I myself have chosen a job far below my earning potential, which
is very high. I have thus reduced my financial independence. I
have made a 'bad' career choice. I have freed myself to have a
moral freedom in that I work for an ethical employer which works
to improve conditions for other human beings.
As for 'weak' men..... I think you are operating on paradigms of
'weakness' and strength' that I do not.
My father, owner of four university degrees worked night shifts at
a petrol station to help his daughters, when we first came to
Britain. He cooked and cleaned. Is he weak or strong?
I wish I could go through these points most thoroughly, but my
internet time is very restricted (very pleasantly too!) at the
moment.
[> [> [>
LOL. "Very pleasantly". I certainly hope so! --
Sophist, 10:49:52 06/01/02 Sat
[> [> [>
Re: Depends how you define 'empowerment' -- change,
18:34:07 06/01/02 Sat
What I want to say is that Joss shows Buffy and the women as being
very emotionally strong. Buffy is able to make tough emotional
decisions, she's able to make good moral choices. In the
traditional meaning of the word, she is virtuous. And sometimes,
it is worth giving up worldly success to be 'virtuous'.
I think Buffy has been portrayed as being emotionally weak this
season. She's been in a depression this whole year. It took her
a long time to make the tough emotional decision to cut off her
disfunctional relationship with Spike. She also was very slow to
do anything about Dawn's problems. In the end, it was Xander's
emotional strength, not Buffy's, that saved Willow and the
world.
I myself have chosen a job far below my earning potential, which
is very high. I have thus reduced my financial independence. I
have made a 'bad' career choice. I have freed myself to have a
moral freedom in that I work for an ethical employer which works
to improve conditions for other human beings.
I'm glad that you made the decision to stick by your ethics. I'm
saddenned that this means you have to have a job far below you
earning potential.
As for 'weak' men..... I think you are operating on paradigms of
'weakness' and strength' that I do not.
My father, owner of four university degrees worked night shifts at
a petrol station to help his daughters, when we first came to
Britain. He cooked and cleaned. Is he weak or strong?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. My problem with the
male characters on BtVS is not with the jobs they have. Giles
seems to have a very good job. Xander isn't doing bad either. My
problem is that most of the mean on BtVS are either evil, weak, or
have been removed from the show. None of the characters has a
father who is there for them. Giles has been sent away to England
and not replaced. The only positive male character who is there
is Xander, and he dumped the woman he loved at the alter.
[> [> [> [>
Weakness -- Rahael, 21:21:39 06/01/02 Sat
Again with the time restrictions, but you said:
"In a show that seems to equate empowerment with fighting ability,
Xander is the worst fighter of the group (even Dawn's better).
Xander has the traditional female role. He loves and supports the
other characters on the show unconditionally. Although, he is very
insecure about himself. Enough so that someone was able to play on
these insecurities to get him to leave Anya on the alter."
Is it so 'unempowering' for a man to be physically weaker than a
super powered woman? Is it emasculating for Xander to have 'the
traditional female role'? What is a traditional female role? I
brought up the example of my father because a parent who
sacrifices their self interest for their children, who cooks and
cleans and makes their school lunches for them in the morning -
that's a 'traditional woman's role'.
Also, you say that Tara is a weak character. Is that a weakly
characterised character, or a 'weak' character? You see, I don't
associate being shy with weak, especially when it is clear to us
that Tara possess reserves of strength that Willow doesn't have.
This is not something which is unrealistic. How many of us know
people whose bravado collapses in a crisis, and the quiet ones
step forward to take charge?
Traditional ways of ordering male and female roles would see BtVS
as emasculating. But in my mind, BtVS shows the process by which
men and women struggle to overcome traditional stereotypes, and
find a new place in society. It isn't easy. Riley's role was a
very traditional male one. He has authority, both emotional and
physical. He's in the army, he is attractive, he is strong. But
what happens when this is taken away from him? He goes into
crisis. The depiction of crisis is interesting. It is dramatic,
and it is true to life.
Buffy this season in a way is also coming to terms with
traditional restrictions on women. Is she 'wrong' to enjoy sex? to
have sex without love? Why can't she 'just be like other
girls'?
Also, there is an often harmful perception that when people break
down, they are weak. That it is stronger to never break down
emotionally, never make a bad decision, to move from one great
decision to another. Firstly this is uninteresting dramatically.
Secondly, this imprisons us. My life, and many other peoples'
could be seen as a series of 'mistakes'. But as Joss reminds us in
his commentary of Restless, the whole of BtVS is 'about the
journey' - that the path, the mistakes are as important as the
destination.
Anya tried to map out the perfect life - a swish apartment, a
great job, a great husband, kids, etc. It crumbled around her, and
she has to rethink her decisions, her view of life. Life isn't
about the acquirement of the latest material goods. University
isn't about getting the perfect, highest paying job.
And I have to totally disagree with you that the show portrays
physical force as being empowering. In the Gift, did Buffy beat
her way senseless to victory? no, she gave up everything, and
fell, unarmed, acceptingly to her death. In 'Primeaval' she turns
bullets into doves. She kills the superpowered Adam by reaching
into his heart, and tearing out the unatural, unaging radioactive
heart. In Grave, Xander fights force with 'weakness', and he wins.
BtVS reiterate time and time again , that force is not strenth.
Buffy tells Dark Willow - that being the slayer isn't just about
'power', it is something Willow cannot conceive of. It is
emotional strength, it is power with responsibility, power
circumscribed by duty.
Look how easily Buffy dispatches the 'we live only for the kill'
First Slayer - she simply gets annoyed, stops fighting and decides
to wake up. She makes fun of the First Slayer. That's how
'empowering' brute force is. Buffy isn't 'emotionally weak' in
Season 6. She retains all her strong emotional force, but in her
guilt and misery, she directs it at herself. It's always there,
always there to help her, and in 'Normal Again', 'Joyce'
reconnects her to it.
I do not see BtVS as showing the 'perfect' society, with empowered
men and women. I see men and women trying to become real, alive
human beings, compassionate, strong, honest. In order to achieve
this they have to face their weaknesses. They have to overcome the
restrictions that society puts in their way. Manwitch and Age have
written many many posts about this process.
As for my pay situation, I earn, to my mind far too much as it is.
I've been very well off before. I am far happier now. I never
worry about money, and have never felt short of it, or become
overdrawn. That means I have just the right amount.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Weakness -- change, 05:06:50 06/02/02 Sun
Is it so 'unempowering' for a man to be physically weaker than a
super powered woman? Is it emasculating for Xander to have 'the
traditional female role'?
It is in BtVS. ME uses physical strength and fighting abilities
to symbolize empowerment. I'm not saying that physical strength
and fighting abilities are empowering in the real world. They are
not. I am saying that they are used as symbols of empowerment in
BtVS. Buffy wouldn't be a Vampire Slayer if she couldn't fight.
The term "Vampire Slayer" implies fighting ability. Wasn't Dawn's
fight scene in Grave about empowerment?
Also, you say that Tara is a weak character. Is that a weakly
characterised character, or a 'weak' character? You see, I don't
associate being shy with weak, especially when it is clear to us
that Tara possess reserves of strength that Willow doesn't have.
This is not something which is unrealistic. How many of us know
people whose bravado collapses in a crisis, and the quiet ones
step forward to take charge?
All right. I shouldn't have said that Tara is a weak character.
She was portrayed as having firm convictions and deep inner
strength. In many ways she was the strongest female character on
the show. However, ME kept this strong female character in the
backgroud and then killed her off. Joyce was killed off too just
as she began to develop as a stronger character. My
interpretation is that ME doesn't want strong female characters on
the show.
Buffy this season in a way is also coming to terms with
traditional restrictions on women. Is she 'wrong' to enjoy sex? to
have sex without love? Why can't she 'just be like other
girls'?
Huh? If you're talking about Buffy's relationship with Spike, it
didn't seem to me that she enjoyed the sex. In DMP, the sex
looked robotic and Buffy seemed to be numb and spaced out (a very
disturbing scene). Other times, Spike beat the shit out of her.
The only time she seemed to like it was when she was invisible.
I'm not sure what that means. Compare Buffy having sex with Riley
with sex with Spike and see if you really think she liked the sex
with Spike.
Also, there is an often harmful perception that when people break
down, they are weak. That it is stronger to never break down
emotionally, never make a bad decision, to move from one great
decision to another. Firstly this is uninteresting dramatically.
Secondly, this imprisons us. My life, and many other peoples'
could be seen as a series of 'mistakes'. But as Joss reminds us in
his commentary of Restless, the whole of BtVS is 'about the
journey' - that the path, the mistakes are as important as the
destination.
I agree that it would be a pretty boring show if all the
characters were perfect and no one made any mistakes. The problem
is that all of the characters are doing badly and making terrible
decisions. Willow's a murderer. Xander's responsible for deaths
in OMwF. Anya turned herself into a demon so that she could
torture and kill Xander. Buffy had a fling with a murderer while
she neglected Dawn. These are not normal problems and mistakes.
These are the sort of mistakes that destroy lives. I would not
have trouble with one or two of the main characters doing
something like this. After all, it is a TV show and having some
of the characters make really bad decisions makes for good drama.
The problem is that all of them are making really bad decisions.
Can a show where all of the female leads destroy themselves by
making terrible decisions really be about female empowerment?
And I have to totally disagree with you that the show portrays
physical force as being empowering. In the Gift, did Buffy beat
her way senseless to victory? no, she gave up everything, and
fell, unarmed, acceptingly to her death. In 'Primeaval' she turns
bullets into doves. She kills the superpowered Adam by reaching
into his heart, and tearing out the unatural, unaging radioactive
heart. In Grave, Xander fights force with 'weakness', and he wins.
BtVS reiterate time and time again , that force is not strenth.
Buffy tells Dark Willow - that being the slayer isn't just about
'power', it is something Willow cannot conceive of. It is
emotional strength, it is power with responsibility, power
circumscribed by duty.
Well I would call ripping out someone's heart an act of physical
violence. In the Gift, Buffy beats the shit out of Glory with a
giant sledge hammer. I think we will just have to disagree on
this one. I think the show uses fighting abilities to symbolize
empowerment.
I see men and women trying to become real, alive human beings,
compassionate, strong, honest. In order to achieve this they have
to face their weaknesses. They have to overcome the restrictions
that society puts in their way. Manwitch and Age have written many
many posts about this process.
I haven't seen the essays by Manwitch and Age. However, except
for Grave, no one seemed to be on the way to becoming "real, alive
human beings, compassionate, strong, honest." The only two who
seem to be going in this direction are Xander (who overcomes his
insecurities to reach out to Willow in Grave), and Spike (who gets
his soul back). On the other hand, Willow is now a murderer, and
Anya is a demon again. Does Anya even have a soul now? As far as
overcoming "the restrictions that society puts in their way", I
can't think of any restrictions that were put in their way this
season. Willow's addiction is her own problem. Anya made her own
decision to become a demon again, as did Xander to dump Anya.
Buffy pursued the relationship with Spike on her own accord. The
only time that society intervened was make sure Dawn was being
taken care of.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Weakness -- shadowkat, 07:56:12 06/02/02 Sun
"Buffy this season in a way is also coming to terms with
traditional restrictions on women. Is she 'wrong' to enjoy sex? to
have sex without love? Why can't she 'just be like other
girls'?"
Totally agree with Rahael here - she's not wrong to enjoy sex.
Also enjoyment of sex wasn't the problem. The problem
was using someone who loved her for it - someone dangerous = fatal
attraction. (They didn't pull this off for me as well as they did
in Season 2 with the Angel/Angelus thing...but oh well..)
"Huh? If you're talking about Buffy's relationship with Spike, it
didn't seem to me that she enjoyed the sex. In DMP, the sex looked
robotic and Buffy seemed to be numb and spaced out (a very
disturbing scene). Other times, Spike beat the shit out of her.
The only time she seemed to like it was when she was invisible.
I'm not sure what that means. Compare Buffy having sex with Riley
with sex with Spike and see if you really think she liked the sex
with Spike."
Well everyone is entitled to their own perception. But having just
rewatched some of the R/B scenes - she looked incredibly bored in
all of them. In fact Riley tells her in Into the Woods that he
doesn't feel her love for him. After sex with him, she says - oh
that was relaxing...and goes to sleep. That's why Riley went to
the vamp trulls - he wanted
passion. So having compared them about six times now, I'd have to
say I strongly disagree with you.
Compare this to the wild passionate sex in Smashed, beginning of
Wrecked, Gone, and Dead Things..including her dream and I'd say
she definitely enjoyed sex with Spike. I certainly enjoyed
watching it better than B/R which I have to admit finding rather
dull.
DMP -was in an alley and she was depressed by the job - even a
quickie sans foreplay couldn't help - it was showing how
dehumanizing and robotic the work was.
Whatever you think of B/S - they had more chemistry than most of
the other pairings and the sex was never boring
nor did it lack passion. Buffy admits this to him on three
occassions - 1. AYW - "I do want you", 2.Hells Bells -"If you're
wildly curious, yes it hurts." 3. SR - "Yes I have feelings for
you..." and of course :"wild passion never lasts it burns itself
out."
Part of the problem might be the actors - SMG does tend to
look like she's thinking of breakfast when she does these scenes -
in fact that's what she is thinking of, but in the dream sequence
of DT and in Smashed - I caught definite enjoyment. Remember Buffy
gets off on fighting - for evidence see Bad Girls, Where the Wild
Things Are... You may not personally like it - but it's in the
writing and the show. The point wasn't that she didn't enjoy the
sex - she did - the point was that she was using
someone dangerous to enjoy it = fatal attraction. Not respecting
his feelings for her and treating him like a thing or sex slave.
If she didn't enjoy it - it would have been over with pretty darn
quick. She can beat the crap out of him.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Supermen and women -- Rahael, 08:54:36 06/02/02
Sun
Ironically, empowerment itself is a weak word, in that it is
pretty bland.
If I thought that ME had some semi fascistic glorification of the
uber strong, I wouldn't be watching the show.
What I meant about Buffy's guilt about liking sex. I presume she
must like sex. The amount of guilt and self beration she's been
going through this season re sex with Spike means that she feels a
lot of guilt about it.
The point about Buffy beating up Glory - does she win by doing it?
Does it achieve anything but momentarily stopping her? Let's look
at the torture scene by dark Willow. Yes, she has 'power' - but I
don't think ME gave it positive qualities. They make her seem
other than human. Similarly, look at the very obvious differences
between the First Slayer and Buffy, and Buffy and Faith. Witness
the huge theme arc of Season 3 where they discuss the
responsibility of being the Slayer, and the very sophisticated
discussion of 'power' in Season 4. (Initiative Power versus Buffy
power). In Primeaval, Buffy, the hand can't defeat Adam by
herself. She has to have heart, spirit and mind too.
I would call ripping out someone's heart a pretty metaphorical
act. Like Xander's father ripping out his heart in Restless. In
fact, I'd go as far to say that BtVS is not just an entertainment
show about the weird and wacky world of Vampire slayage. There are
layers of meaning here.
And Anya is a demon. Willow is a human. GRave tells us, so what?
Anya is still more alive, more human and more compassionate than
anyone else apart from Giles on that show by the season finale! In
fact, she's too good for Xander!!!
And what I mean by 'society's restriction' is not social workers
intervening re Dawn. I mean Xander's fears about what a 'real man'
should be like (as opposed to evil undead things). I mean Riley's
angst that he is no longer as 'manly' without super strength. I
mean Tara's family telling her she's a demon. That's what I meant
by the restrictions of society on our characters.
[> [>
Totally disagree! I'd have to say it's just S6 -- warped,
13:43:44 06/01/02 Sat
Interesting ideas, but I count invalid the part of your argument
based on character developments in S6, which I think was supposed
to be the year of bad choices and mistakes (preordained by ME). I
agree with Friar Ted- this season we took a look at the human
weaknesses in all of our Scoobies. We saw each of our heros deal
with their tragic flaws (I'm going back to the Restless cards
here) plus selfishness and insecurity and the like.
I still think this is a show about female empowerment...it's just
taken a detour, of sorts. Most people around the gang's age have a
period of adjustment where they have to hit "rock bottom" before
they start becoming who they want to be. Episodes like
"Checkpoint," "Graduation Day Pt.2," "Helpless," all the MoTW
epsiodes from the first two seasons and tons more are examples
showcasing a Buffy-defeats-the-patriarchy theme.
[> [>
Re: Are you sure the show isn't about Female Weakness? --
vampire hunter D, 13:10:11 06/02/02 Sun
Sounds to me if we did this show with your definition of
'empowerment' it would be another Ally McBullshit or Sex in the
City
with Fangs
"Restless"
still dazzles (Spoilers for "Restless" and S6
Finale) -- Vegeta, 14:52:41 05/31/02 Fri
So, last night I was watching the last three episodes of Season 4
with some friends who have recently become BtVS fans. While
watching "Restless" I was shocked at the hints dropped toward
Willow's downward spiral at the end of Season 6. I am not
currently watching the episode so I can't give you an exact quote,
but while Willow was between the curtains during "the Death of a
Salesman" play they were putting on, Tara said something to Willow
that was so telling of the last four episodes of Season 6.
She said something to the effect of:
"They're going to find out about you. The real you. When they
do, they'll punish you. But I can't help you with that."
All I could think was "WOW"! I personally interperted this as the
gang finding out about her magic powers growing to god-like
territory, over the two following seasons... As she grew more
powerful and reckless the gang pushed her to stop being the "real
her". ie Wicca Willow. And most importantly the line "But, I
can't help you with that". I believe this is foretelling Tara's
demise. For when it came time to stop (punish) the real Willow,
Tara was dead and gone.
There was alot more that foretold season 6, however I am a busy
man and wanted to get the juiciest bit out asap.
Discuss amongst yourselves...
[>
Six degrees of Restless -- Maroon Lagoon, 19:28:30
05/31/02 Fri
I propose a game. Somebody describes a random scene from any
episode, then the next poster has to connect that scene to
something in Restless in a few steps as possible. The number of
steps is the number of points you get and the person with the
fewest points at the end wins.
If the scene you start with comes from an entirely different show,
you may deduct one point.
I'll start with an example.
Scene: Rory risks destruction -- hurting her chances of acheiving
her life's dream of going to Harvard -- because she sits by
herself at lunch to read. Headmaster Charleston declares that she
is a loner and he tells her to be more social. Her concession is
to do something frivolous that is against her nature -- joining a
silly secret sorority -- but it doesn't work out. She tells
Charleston that she really isn't cut off -- she has a best friend,
a boyfriend, and a close mother. Everything works out in the end
when he relents and agrees to recommend her to Harvard after
all.
1. Angel risks destruction -- his prophesied death -- but he
doesn't care and goes back to reading his book alone at night like
a loner. Cordy and Wes declare that he is cut off from the world
and want him to be more involved. Cordy suggests frivolous things
that are against his nature -- a puppy, ficus, ant farm, and
painting supplies -- but she doesn't get a chance to give them to
him. They realize that Angel isn't cut off -- he cares very much
for Cordy and Wes and that ties him to the world -- and everything
works out in the end when they learn that Angel isn't going to die
after all.
2. Buffy risks destruction -- ending up like Kendra and Faith --
who were loners cut off from the world. The First Slayer suggests
that friends are a frivolous distraction and against a slayer's
nature, which is to be a lone killer, but she can't convince Buffy
to give up her friends. They tie her to the world and everything
works out in the end when Buffy tells off the First Slayer and is
returned to her friends and goes on in S5 to "explore what it
means to be a Slayer," the chance that Kendra and Faith never
got.
There. From "Like Mother, Like Daughter" to "Restless" in only two
steps. I started from Gilmore Girls and went by way of Angel, so
I'm deducting two points.
Maroon Lagoon is in first place with an even zero points!
Man, it's fun to be lame! Anybody else want to play?
[> [>
That example was lame. The sillier your connections, the
better. -- Maroon Lagoon, 19:55:20 05/31/02 Fri
Round 1: Scene: the three destructions of the Caritas. (Hint: the
Hyperion courtyard serves as the fourth incarnation of the
Caritas.)
[>
Re: "Restless" still dazzles (Spoilers for
"Restless" and S6 Finale) -- Alvin, 22:25:55
05/31/02 Fri
Also in Willow's dream, Xander asks her "Whatcha doin? You doin a
spell?" and in Grave "Hey there black eyed girl, whatcha doin? You
doin a spell?" Even his tone of voice is the same.
Spike & Willow's
Current Trajectory - Switching From Dark to Light (spoilers
through Grave. Long!) -- shadowkat, 14:52:54 05/31/02
Fri
Spike and Willow’s Current Trajectory: Switching Sides from Dark
to Light
This is a continuation of my Spike/Willow comparisons.
For Parts I & II (Origins and Reinvention of Self, see
archives or my website sometime next week.)Thanks for
reading!
WARNING: Spoilers up to and including Grave. If you haven’t seen
all of Season 6, don’t read any further!! Btvs Quotes from Psyche
Transcripts.
“I'm serious. Responsible people are ... always so concerned with
... being good all the time, that when they finally get a taste of
being bad ... they can't get enough. It's like all (gestures)
kablooey.” Anya, Smashed, Season 6, Btvs.
“When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it
doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse...
It's an easy way to live.” (Angel to Buffy in ANGEL, Btvs Season
1)
By reinventing themselves as a powerful witch and a sexually
aggressive vampire, Willow and William, manage to shirk their
former weak-willed virginal personas for strong powerful
aggressive ones. As a witch – Willow becomes the aggressor both in
her personal relationships as well as academically and in society.
As a vampire – William likewise becomes an aggressor, pursuing the
slayer, pursuing his prey. The witch and vampire motifs are
interesting as well – since these are the two villains the SG
fought way back in Season 1. Of the two the witch was far more
formidable, since their defeat of Catherine Madison was almost a
fluke. (Buffy lucked out, by flipping a mirror on Catherine – so
that Catherine’s spell was reflected back at her, in the final
scene of Witch. I’m not sure if Buffy would have succeeded if it
weren’t for the mirror, which reflects Catherine rage and hate
back at her. Interesting they defeat DarkWillow in almost the same
manner, except they reflect her humanity and love back at her
through Xander’s words and Giles’ magic.) Willow’s cravings for
magic and William’s cravings for blood also work as metaphors for
drug and alcohol abuse - common means for the real geeks to handle
rejection and the energy it takes to maintain the false personas
they’ve created to hide the so-called “geek”.
But there’s more to the story here. Willow did not pursue dark
magic for the reasons Catherine did and Spike certainly didn’t
intend on becoming the insane vampire that we know today.
Somewhere along the way – Spike and Willow started going against
their original intent. Willow got corrupted by the dark magic she
wielded, slowly finding herself bent to its will while Spike went
in the opposite direction and found himself growing weaker as a
vampire, because of an increased desire to aid order instead of
chaos. It’s almost as if the PTB (Powers That Be) and FoD (Forces
of Darkness) in their continuous chess game, claimed each other’s
knight. Knights for those of you who aren’t familiar with chess,
never move in a straight line. At the moment – it looks like FoD
got the upper hand, because a witch is far more powerful than a
vampire. But then where would the SG (Scooby Gang) and Sunnydale
be if Spike hadn’t jumped sides? Also, Willow’s descent into evil
was far more direct and predictable than Spike’s zig-zagged climb
towards order, a climb he himself appears to be conflicted about.
The first shift in this trajectory happened in Season 2, in
Becoming Part II. It was in this episode, that Willow decided to
us dark magic to impose her good will on the world and Spike first
used his vampire abilities to assist the forces of order. In doing
so, both went against the nature of their power or the monster and
that first step may have brought them both to where they are
today.
In Becoming, Season 2, Angelus plans to suck the world into hell
by awakening Acathula. He kidnaps Giles, who unwittingly provides
the necessary information. To stop him, the SG comes up with a two-
pronged approach. Spike locates Buffy and convinces her to join
forces with him to defeat Angelus and save the world. Willow,
having just awoken from a coma and without consulting Buffy,
decides to curse Angelus with a soul. Both are partially
successful. Spike manages to even the odds in Buffy’s favor.
Angelus is correct, Buffy could not have taken them all on alone.
Not even with Xander’s help. In the previous episode, Drusilla and
Angelus’ minions had killed Kendra (the other slayer), broke
Xander’s arm, kidnapped Giles, and injured Willow. Spike’s help
was invaluable in defeating Dru and Angelus. Willow also manages
to return Angelus’ soul to him – but she does it a little late.
(For those people out there who still haven’t forgiven Xander for
not telling Buffy about Willow’s plan – it wouldn’t have mattered.
Angelus’ had opened Acalthula prior to getting his soul back.
Buffy would have had to kill him anyway. And if she’d known – she
could have gotten herself killed in the process. Xander probably
did the right thing for the wrong reasons. Just as Willow did the
wrong thing for the right reasons.) In short, Willow’s curse did
not save the world. All it did was complicate things.
Spike does something very interesting in Becoming. Almost shocking
if you stop and think about it. Oh it makes logical sense. Because
of Buffy, who dropped a pipe organ on his head, Spike was chained
to a wheelchair for months listening to Angelus shag Drusilla. Not
to mention putting up with all of Angelus’ obsessions and insults.
And he certainly had plenty of time to brood. At the time his
little plan probably seemed flawless. After all, what was there to
lose? He gets Dru. Buffy, if he’s lucky, kills Angelus. The world
doesn’t go to hell. He and Dru leave Sunnydale happily ever after.
Except for one teensy little problem – he went against his calling
as a vampire, against chaos, against the FoD to do this. He jumped
tracks in midstream. The FoD really don’t care why he did it. They
tend to look at the big picture, petty human emotions are beyond
them and they believe should be beyond their warriors. What did
the Judge tell Spike? “You stink of emotion and
affection.”(Surprise, Season 2) You aren’t supposed to help the
slayer save the world so you can drive off in the sunset with your
one true love. You’re supposed to wreck havoc and kill the slayer
– you dimwit. Drusilla, nutty as she is, understands this.
Meanwhile the PTB are gleefully rubbing their hands together,
thinking hmmm this looks interesting, better keep an eye on this
guy.
Willow on the other hand – has used dark magic to curse someone.
Like Spike, she may have had the best of intentions, but the PTB
don’t really care. You’re not supposed to delve into dark magic to
curse someone. That’s a door you might want to keep closed. Yes –
in the long run giving Angelus back his soul may have aided them,
but it was a risky move since it may have worked against them too.
Also the curse itself gave Willow access to something that was
over her head. Meanwhile – the FoD are rubbing their hands
together, going hmmm let’s keep an eye on this one, see where it
leads. Who knows all may not be lost after all.
In Season 3 Btvs, we get to see the effects these choices had on
both characters.
Willow apparently has been delving in the dark magicks most of the
summer. We learn in Dead Man’s Party, the second episode of
Season 3, that Willow has had a few magical accidents, including
almost setting her bed on fire. Later in Gingerbread, Willow tells
her mother that she can summon at least two of the forces of
nature. “Mom, I'm not acting out. I'm a witch! I-I can make
pencils float. And I can summon the four elements. Okay, two, but
four soon.”
Spike, we learn in Lover’s Walk and later through flashbacks in
Fool For Love (Season 5, see scene between him and Drusilla, dated
1998 - Brazil) , has lost Drusilla. He’s no longer evil enough for
her. As he tells Willow in Lover’s Walk, “It was that truce with
Buffy that did it. Dru said I'd gone soft. Wasn't demon enough for
the likes of her.” Being love’s bitch, he wishes Dru had just
killed him. “She didn't even care enough to cut off my head or set
me on fire. (sniffs) I mean, is that too much to ask? You know?
Some little sign that she cared.” Neither Willow nor Spike have a
healthy view of love – they both obtain their self-worth through
the eyes of their lovers. They are not worthy by themselves. This
makes them both “loves bitches” and somewhat dangerous to whomever
they become interested in. Willow states in Two to Go, Season 6
and in Tough Love, Season 5, ‘without Tara, I’m nothing.’ She
can’t sleep without her in Tough Love and in Two To Go, she tells
Buffy that the only time she felt good about herself was the
moments she looked into Tara’s eyes. Spike says the same thing in
Lovers’ Walk about Drusilla: “I’m nothing without her.” Drusilla
and Tara have managed through their love and relationships with
Spike and Willow to elevate S/W’s opinions of themselves. Before
Tara and Dru, S/W believed they were “geeks”, “mediocre”, after
Tara and Dru, S/W became vampire and witch – powerful entities.
Back to Lover’s Walk. Willow is attempting a de-lusting spell with
Xander when Spike discovers her and requests that she give him a
love spell for Drusilla. Both want to use spells to control their
loved ones. Both are terribly afraid of losing that which makes
them feel good. Willow feels guilty that she is now getting these
good feelings from two sources: Xander and OZ. In Lover’s Walk, a
drunken lovesick Spike returns to Sunnydale to revenge himself on
Angel for breaking up him and Drusilla. He initially intends to
curse Angel but changes his mind and asks Willow to conjure a love
spell instead. Willow meanwhile is trying a delusting spell to
control hers and Xander’s sudden attraction for each other.
They’ve been cheating on Cordelia and OZ and Willow feels
incredibly guilty. Unable to resist Xander’s charms, she decides
to control her feelings with magic. Just as Spike resorts to magic
to get Drusilla back. Neither accomplish their ends. Willow
informs Spike that she left a spell book at Buffy’s house. Instead
of just picking up the book, Spike takes the time to commiserate
with Joyce over a cup of coco. They discuss their ex’s and Joyce
tells Spike that sometimes people just go their separate ways. As
a result of this odd almost human repast, Angel and Buffy catch up
to Spike and they inadvertently help him fight off a bunch of the
Mayor’s thugs hired to rid the town of Spike.
Willow once again resorts to the forces of darkness for the right
reasons – to protect OZ and Cordelia from what she and Xander are
doing. And Spike once again ends up doing something good for the
wrong reasons – defeating and killing a bunch of evil vampires in
a street fight and commiserating with Joyce to survive and make
himself feel good. He ends up leaving Sunnydale without killing
Willow or Xander or acquiring a spell. Instead he decides to win
Drusilla back on his own and gives Buffy a piece of invaluable
insight regarding Angel. Willow and Xander get caught in the act
and Willow is forced to take responsibility for her actions as
well.
Just a few episodes after Lover’s Walk, we find Willow resorting
to dark magic to deal with the pain of rejection and frustration
in Dopplegangerland.
Anya: Yeah. Um, listen, (steps up closer to her) I have this
little
project I'm working on, and I heard you were the person to ask
if...
Willow: (interrupts, ironically) Yeah, that's me. Reliable-Dog-
Geyser
Person. What do you need?
Anya: Oh, it's nothing big. (secretively) Just a little spell I'm
working on. (shrugs)
Willow: (suddenly interested, steps down to her) A spell?
(nonchalantly) Oh. I like the black arts.
Willow doesn’t want to be old reliable. She wants to be important,
fun and possibly more like Buffy. In Choices she lets Buffy know
that she wants to join her fight, go against the forces of evil.
Use her gift with magic to help. (See Choices, last scene, Season
3 Btvs.) But one little problem, she is delving into the dark
forces of magic to do it and the more she uses these forces to do
good, the more she gets tainted by the power, becoming somewhat
addicted to it herself. By the time we reach Season 4, Fear
Itself, OZ expresses fears about Willow’s increased use of magic
and Buffy suggests that her spells are usually fifty-fifty and
hardly reliable. Willow reacts to both comments with disdain.
Telling Buffy and Oz off. (See Fear Itself, Season 4). In the
episode Willow uses magic to find her way – but the magic
backfires on her, threatening to attack and consume her in the
form of tiny green fireflies.
A few episodes later we see Spike in Sunnydale again. In The
Initiative, Spike gets a nasty little government chip in his head
that castrates his monster. He doesn’t realize it’s there until he
attempts to attack Willow, which doesn’t quite turn out as he had
planned. He tries to be the Big Bad, he truly does. When he enters
her dorm room, Spike intends to kill and vamp Willow (Btvs’
standard rape metaphor) But the chip stops him and he is unable to
perform. What happens next is a touching scene between two people
in pain. Oddly enough, Spike accomplishes with Willow what Riley
failed to do earlier, comfort her and make her feel wanted. We see
him accomplish the same feat with Anya several episodes later in
Where the Wild Things Are and in Season 6’s Entropy.
Here’s a portion of the scene in The Initiative, Season 4,
Btvs:
Willow : It's me, isn't it?
Spike : What are you talking about?
Willow : Well, you came looking for Buffy, then settled. I--I...
You didn't want to bite me. I just happened to be around.
Spike : Piffle!
Willow : I know I'm not the kind of girl vamps like to sink their
teeth into. It's always like, "ooh, you're like a sister to me,"
or, "oh, you're such a good friend."
Spike : Don't be ridiculous. I'd bite you in a heartbeat.
Willow : Really?
Spike sits on her bed again.
Spike : Thought about it.
Willow : When?
Spike : Remember last year, you had on that... Fuzzy pink number
with the lilac underneath?
Willow : I never would have guessed. You played the blood-lust
kinda cool.
Spike : Mmm. I hate being obvious. All fang-y and "rrrr!" Takes
the mystery out.
Willow : But if you could...
Spike : If I could, yeah.
Willow : You know, this doesn't make you any less terrifying.
This scene, in a nutshell, demonstrates the similarities between
the two characters. Both ache for some sort of acknowledgement.
Whether that be acknowledgment of their peers, their enemies, or
even loved ones. Willow is reeling from OZ’s departure and the
feeling that she is unimportant, like Spike – Willow’s self worth
was completely wrapped up in how her lover felt about her. Spike’s
self-worth is reflected by Drusilla, when Drusilla is gone, he
becomes pathetic, the “shell of a loser”. Willow is the same way
– when OZ leaves, she becomes pathetic – resorting to alcohol then
spells to make the pain go away, just like Spike did in Lover’s
Walk.
Spike and Willow’s actions are largely motivated by love. It’s
their raison d’etre, their drug of choice. Through the love of
another – their self-worth is either increased or decreased. Both
are addictive personalities – and like most addictive
personalities –“the good feelings associated with love” become a
drug. It’s not real love of course – but they don’t know that.
They don’t realize that you can’t love someone until you first
love and respect yourself, without that, any love you provide is
empty, because you don’t believe you have anything worth giving,
you’re relying on the other person to provide everything. The
object of your affection is providing you with your identity, your
self-worth, etc. You are merely reflecting what they give you back
at them, like a mirror. The more attention S/W receive from the
object of their affection, whether it be purely physical or
emotional, the better they feel. When that attention is removed,
they go into severe with-drawl. They have no ego/no self outside
of the one projected on them by the object of their affection,
when that object is removed, they become lost in the same manner
as someone who goes off cocaine or heroine may become “lost”. They
will do literally anything to regain that drug no matter what the
cost. As a result – love or the lack thereof, as they define it,
can motivate them to do good or evil.
When Spike loses Dru – his first response is alcohol, the second
is a love spell.
Willow’s first is magic, then alcohol, then the fateful “Will it
So” spell of Something Blue, which almost gets her turned into a
vengeance demon and results in her friends’ deaths. When Tara
fights with Willow in All The Way and threatens to leave in
Tabula Rasa – Willow’s first response is to cast a spell that rips
away Tara’s memories of the fight in All The Way and all of her
memories in Tabula Rasa. Thus forcing Tara to stay with her. This
act, while appearing somewhat mundane on the surface, is actually
from Tara’s point of view worse than a physical rape. Glory had
brain-sucked Tara the year before and Tara lives in fear of losing
her mind. It is amazing that Tara is able to forgive Willow for
it, which she does in Entropy (Season 6). Spike reacts in a
similar fashion when he loses Buffy. He tries alcohol. He tries
magic to numb the pain. He tries sleeping with Anya for solace,
which just makes the situation worse. (Entropy) And eventually, he
does what Willow did, he physically forces his desires on his
lover, attempts to recreate their relationship with force. (Seeing
Red). This act, like Willow’s mind-rape of Tara, sends him
reeling, exacerbating the conflict inside him. So at first it
appears that he just wants to get his chip removed then later, it
becomes clear that he really just wants to improve himself for the
person he loves. He wants to change the part of himself that
caused Buffy pain. Willow does the same thing when she attempts to
go off magic. She attempts to change the part of herself that
caused her lover pain, the magic. But it takes her awhile to
realize it was her dependence on magic that caused this. Just as
it takes a while for Spike to realize that it was his demonic
urges that caused him to hurt the woman he loves. The monster
they prefer has cost them what they care about most. Worse – it
has caused them to hurt that person in a horrible way. Remember –
they are both addicted to what they are receiving from Buffy and
Tara, when it is removed, they become desperate and try to take it
back by force, then realize too late this act just pushes it
further away. I’m not saying they do not have genuine feelings for
Buffy and Tara, but until they learn to love and appreciate
themselves they have nothing worthy to give B/T.
Their responses are oddly similar, they both try to destroy the
monster. Apparently they’ve realized that the monster they’ve
created to handle the geek is what is depriving them of the love
they crave. So – get rid of the monster and we get the love back.
Unfortunately it’s not that simple. Tara prematurely comes back to
Willow, only to lose her life, leaving Willow once again in severe
withdrawl. Willow just went off the magic, she didn’t build up her
self-esteem or deal with her inner geek. She just switched from
one drug to another – Tara. When Tara leaves – Willow predictably
switches back to magic, just like she did in Smashed and Wrecked,
just like she does when Oz left her. What Spike does is actually
healthier than Willow; he, once again, appears to be doing the
right thing for the wrong reasons. He decides to get a soul to
regain Buffy’s love. He should be getting it to improve himself –
perhaps, in the end, he is, I’m not sure.
Let’s back up a bit and check the side and rear view mirrors. How
many times has Spike done the right thing for the wrong reasons?
And what the heck do I mean by that anyway? Well – starting with
Becoming – Spike helps save the world to get Dru back. Right thing
– selfish reason. In Lover’s Walk – he reveals Willow and Xander’s
whereabouts, commiserates with Joyce, and kills vampires – to help
himself, again right thing, wrong reasons. In Initiative – he
inadvertently comforts Willow because he’s feeling sorry for
himself. In Doomed – he helps save the world again, because he’s
bored and doesn’t want to die. In New Moon Rising – he helps them
rescue OZ – because Adam wants him to get in tight with SG. In
Primeval, he switches sides and helps the SG because Adam decides
to kill him and he doesn’t want to get staked. In Season 5, he
helps save the world again and protects Dawn, to win Buffy’s favor
and he loves Buffy. In Into the Woods – he reveals what Riley’s
doing with vamp trulls to break Buffy and Riley up. Now in Season
6, he fights alongside the SG all summer and helps Dawn to live up
to his promise to Buffy in The Gift and assuage his guilt –
getting closer to right reasons now. He continues to help them –
because of Buffy. Yet, the more Spike helps, the weaker, Spike
becomes.
Willow on the other hand is becoming quite powerful. By the end of
Season 5 – Buffy tells Willow that she’s the “big gun”, she’s even
more powerful than Buffy. Willow is the only one who came close to
harming Glory, a hell-god. By the Bargaining – Willow can
communicate with everyone telepathically, move objects with her
mind, levitate, and raise the dead. Spike on the other hand – can
barely kill a vampire. The more Willow dabbles in dark magic, the
more addicted she gets to the power, the closer she gets to the
monster within. The more Spike tries to do the right thing and
help the SG, the further he drifts from the source of his power
and the further he gets from the vampire he is. As a result, Spike
looks more like a man in Season 6 and Willow looks more like a
force to be reckoned with. By Grave, the two characters have
literally flip-flopped. Willow is in danger of losing her humanity
or soul to the dark magic she wields while Spike is in danger of
regaining his humanity or soul and losing his demonic
identity.
At the end of Grave – Willow’s humanity is saved by the combined
forces of Xander and Giles. But she is hardly out of the woods.
She has committed horrendous acts with her magic, destroying half
of Sunnydale, killing Warren, attempting to kill all her friends.
These acts have tainted her just as the dark forces she wields
have. Spike, on the other hand, endures his trials and regains his
soul. His actions have also tainted him but in the opposite
direction. Spike was an evil soulless being, but by doing the
right thing consistently for the wrong reasons – he has slowly
become tainted by good. Now Spike has regained a sizable amount of
his humanity back while Willow has lost a sizable amount of hers.
In Becoming Spike was the evil, irredeemable Big Bad (or little
Bad if you will) and Willow was the sweet loving human wanting to
do good – now four years later, Willow is the evil, possibly
irredeemable Big Bad and Spike has gone after his human soul. And
these events occurred because of the characters’ mutual desire to
be loved. Willow’s loss of Tara causes her to give up her
humanity/soul and get lost in magic, Spike’s loss of Buffy causes
him to give up his demon identity and regain his soul/humanity.
Love really can make you do the wacky.
So who won this match? The Powers of Good or the Forces of
Darkness?
Is what Spike and Willow feel really love? Did Spike get a soul
for the right reasons? Did Willow resort to magic for the wrong
ones? Does it really matter why we choose to do what we do? Or is
it what we choose to do that is most important? Is part of growing
up – understanding why we do things and taking responsibility for
the act as well as the reasons? If we can understand the reasons
behind our actions – will we think twice before doing them? What
if anything have Spike and Willow learned? And how has it changed
them? Will Willow think twice before resorting to magic? Will
Spike think twice before attacking someone, whether that be
sexually or for food? I think so. I believe that the reasons are
as important as the actions and I think both characters have
learned a great deal this year about their own.
Thanks for reading. Hope this adds to the discussion and isn’t a
retread. :- ) shadowkat
[>
(Stunned speechless)... -- Doriander, 18:20:34
05/31/02 Fri
...Wow.
Nothing constructive to add, mere compliments at this point:
Excellent shadowkat! Very perceptive how you exacted the turning
point of these two (Becoming 2). I love your point about doing the
wrong thing for the right reasons vs. doing the right thing for
the wrong reasons, as well as the PtB's vs. FoD on the verge of
losing a knight, and gaining another.
This actually makes me appreciate the trial scenes more. It now
makes perfect sense that fight scenes were included in the finale
at all, and that they're intercut between Willow and Spike. The
same thing happened in Smashed, intercutting scenes between
Willow's increasing abuse of magic and Spike getting increasingly
aggressive. Come to think of it, all this time, by encouragement
from the writers themselves, we have been focused on drawing
parallels between Buffy and Willow, their descent to addiction. I
remember at that time laughing at the notion of Buffy becoming
addicted to Spike. It's perfectly valid, I grant that. But, the
more apt parallel in retrospect is really this between Willow and
Spike. They're on opposite sides of the wheel, one is up when the
other is down and vice versa, and there are instances in which
they're even. It's more pointed this season, from Bargaining, in
which Spike is on the outs playing sitter and Willow is the "Boss
of us", to Grave, which you've already eloquently pointed out.
Wow. I'm increasinly in awe of your mind, and I'm increasingly in
awe of this season.
[> [>
A tiny bit more on the S/W parallel -- Exegy, 01:44:04
06/01/02 Sat
I'm reminded of that scene in OMWF in which the characters ask,
"Where do we go from here?" and we see a shot of Spike and Willow,
spinning in direct counterpoint to each other. This visual image
links the two characters together, indicating that they have both
lost their way this season; also, each may appear to head in a
different direction, but the end destination may be the same, as
the two revolve around the same point.
*Sigh* the visual interpretation of OMWF is a great pursuit.
Thanks to shadowkat and Doriander for the great posts! I have
nothing else to add right now. You guys are brilliant.
[>
NICE parallels. Good job! -- Traveler, 18:49:03
05/31/02 Fri
As others have mentioned, I think that Willow and Spike will be in
a unique position to empathize with each other next season. I
really hope the writers run with that.
[> [>
What Traveler said, plus-- suggestion for new BA (board
acronym) ... -- OnM, 20:03:08 05/31/02 Fri
...which would be:
OMwskK ( pronounced Ahh-uuhm-wissk )
for Once More with shadowkat
Kaboom-age
(Has a certain meditational wisk-y ness, do it not?? ;-)
*** OnM pauses briefly whilst visualizing a cosmic mixing bowl
full of tasty, philosophical batter about to be lovingly baked and
resplendently frosted ***
:-)
[> [> [>
Hehe! Nothing else to say except your post made me
giggle! -- MayaPapaya9, 20:08:17 05/31/02 Fri
[> [> [>
LMAO - to Om's post... -- shadowkat, 20:47:57 05/31/02
Fri
Thanks - great coming from you, been lurking off an on
last few days enjoying your posts and Age's great stuff.
[>
OMIGOD I too am stunned! -- shygirl, 09:44:51 06/01/02
Sat
I always read your posts because of your insight. This time you
blew me away with your comparisons.
[>
Making the post even longer. :-) -- Jeff Holland,
18:14:21 06/01/02 Sat
Looking back over the last couple of seasons of Buffy, I find it
slightly amusing that Buffy's personal journeys, while always
entertaining and powerful (The Body, greatist piece of dramatic
television in years)have been nowhere near as interesting to me as
the journey's of three other characters: the aforementioned Spike
and Willow and (Drumroll please) Xander. In the beginning, he was
the funny guy, then while everyone else was growing up he seemed
to stay the funny guy and only got annoying, then when he finally
got into a healthy relationship (With a demon, go fig) he got
interesting again and finally, he gets to save the world. What is
interesting about this is, looking at the way Season 6 has
progressed, this really is the only way Willow as Big Bad should
have been defeated: her best friend bringing her back into the
light. Over the last two years in particular, Xander has grown up
and I for one, am thrilled.
Now, one quick note on Spike, who has been my favorite character
since his introduction in Season 2. All I have to say is it will
be fun to see how he is brought back when the new season starts:
if he'll just show up in Sunnydale all humaned out (So to speak)
or if like the last couple of eps from this season, we see a
little of his solo journey back into town. Personally, I wish it
would go this route. I really want to see how Spike deals with
his newly restored human nature before he goes back to Buffy. I'd
love to see him go talk to Angel (That would be a fun
conversation).
If it doesn't happen that way, I'm already working on a fanfic
piece that starts at the end of Grave.
[> [>
Re: Making the post even longer. :-) (SPoilers
Benediction) -- shadowkat, 19:52:46
06/01/02 Sat
"Now, one quick note on Spike, who has been my favorite character
since his introduction in Season 2. All I have to say is it will
be fun to see how he is brought back when the new season starts:
if he'll just show up in Sunnydale all humaned out (So to speak)
or if like the last couple of eps from this season, we see a
little of his solo journey back into town. Personally, I wish it
would go this route. I really want to see how Spike deals with his
newly restored human nature before he goes back to Buffy. I'd love
to see him go talk to Angel (That would be a fun
conversation).
If it doesn't happen that way, I'm already working on a fanfic
piece that starts at the end of Grave."
Would love to see your fanfic! Been playing with how they'll bring
him back myself the last few weeks.
Unfortunately he can't talk to Angel, because Angel is at the
bottom of the ocean at the moment. But dang it - I want a Spike -
Angel conversation. These two have issues to work out. Oh
well...
I also want to watch his journey back and see how he deals.
I was happy to see his trials. They could have been better,
but they worked metaphorically for me - so I liked them okay.
Wonder what they plan on doing with him? Came up with at least six
possible theories so far and keep getting stuck,
so beats me. Only thing I know for sure is he's not coming
back a BB and that's about it.
Regarding Xander -As much as I hate to admit it - I really lost
interest in him this year. I didn't begin to get reinterested
until the end of the season, SR, but even then
his dialogue sounded oddly familar and like a retread of Season 3,
Season 4, and first part of 5. Xander struggling to get out of the
basement, get past his fear of being a Harris, of being a coward
and a dork...okay thought we handled that in the Replacement and
the Zeppo. So I really didn't see much growth.
Nor did the last scene with Willow work for me, not sure why, been
puzzeling over it. I think I sort of agreed with
Willow - "you're going to stop me by saying you love me?"
And I should buy that because...? He hadn't really supported her
that much this year. Somewhat last year...but
this year he seemed distant, detached from her. I fault the
writers for that - trying to do too much and relegating poor
Xander to the background in a good majority of episodes - to the
extent that new viewers considered him no more than comic relief.
Being an old viewer - the end of grave did touch me a little,
because I knew his history with Willow. And i think willow has
always had deep feelings for Xander. But i never felt those
feelings from Xander towards Willow, certainly not enough to buy
that scene...not sure
why. Maybe it's just me. This might sound like rambling,
because i'm really puzzled about when I started losing interest in
a character I used to find to be incredibly interesting...was it
in DMP? or earlier? not sure.
[> [> [>
Re: Making the post even longer. :-) (SPoilers
Benediction) -- leslie, 20:27:07
06/01/02 Sat
The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that Spike
will return incognito, either deliberately or in a soul-induced
state of amnesia. Possibly his hair will have turned black
overnight and curly with shock (hey, if a beetle up your nose
doesn't curl your hair, nothing will)....
I am completely blown away, Shadowkat, at your insight that both
Spike and Willow "turn" at the same moment, and if there has to be
a 12-Step Program for Big Bads, I think they should enter it
together (hmm, some interesting amusing bits possible in that
scenario--could Anya be their sponsor?).
I think there is one thing that could be investigated further with
Spike, though--what is this thing he has for reassuring needy
women that they are attractive--Willow, Anya, and one starts to
wonder if that's how the thing with Harmony began offstage--and
how does that connect to his love for Drusilla and Buffy, neither
of whom seem to need that reassurance? It is, in a way, one of his
more charming characteristics, but does he do it because he
empathizes with their neediness because he feels the same way (in
which case it's rather sad that he never gets it in return), or is
it manipulative? I'm inclined to go for the former but hey, I'm
unredeemably optimistic.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Making the post even longer. :-) (SPoilers
Benediction) -- shadowkat, 21:31:30 06/01/02 Sat
"I think there is one thing that could be investigated further
with Spike, though--what is this thing he has for reassuring needy
women that they are attractive--Willow, Anya, and one starts to
wonder if that's how the thing with Harmony began offstage--and
how does that connect to his love for Drusilla and Buffy, neither
of whom seem to need that reassurance? It is, in a way, one of his
more charming characteristics, but does he do it because he
empathizes with their neediness because he feels the same way (in
which case it's rather sad that he never gets it in return), or is
it manipulative? I'm inclined to go for the former but hey, I'm
unredeemably optimistic."
I'm inclined to think it has something to do with his origin as
William. In a post regarding William's orgins
several archives back (spike/darla thread) - rufus and redcat
theorized that William probably had a strong relationship with his
mother and his father was either away or dead. He also exhibited
behavior which redcat identified as neurasthenic(sp?) - "thin
slightly stoop shouldered, fussily dressed, clean-shaven, carrying
a book - a common linked attribute of this type of character was
his over-identification with a usually widowed but always over-
protective mother and the real or impled absense of a strong
father." Look at William in Fool for Love - he ignores the men and
goes right for Cecily. He seems to understand or sympathise with
women.
In Lover's Walk - we see him with Joyce. He brings flowers for her
later in Forever, after she's dead. He watches Passions with her -
a soap opera. When we find him with Harmony in HLOD - Buffy
comments the guy would have to be awfully tolerant to date her. In
the past with Angelus - we get the feeling he and Angel did not
get along - makes sense, this type of guy - considered a sissy as
a human would not get along with the "frat-boy" type Liam was.
Redcat also stated how - Spike's persona as BB sexual predator was
a response to the "nancy-boy" identity he hated, a way to defend
against it. He tells Buffy - that
using weapons makes him feel all manly in School Hard...
Getting back to your comment - having met men like William
in my life - (not sexual predators) - they do tend to
have strong relationships with their mother. Often identifying
more with women. And you're right it is his most charming
characteristic.
Remember what Drusilla stated before she went after him - to turn
him in FFL? She said she wanted to find a chivalarous knight who'd
love just her...Darla retorts -
a drooling idiot. Have to say Dru did a better job of choosing
mates than Darla - since Spike appears to stay true to Dru
longer...and does appear to genuinely love her.
And Dru we know has an uncanny insight into the future and
people, nutty, but present. When she turns William she tells him
his wealth lies in his heart and in his head - clearly she sees
his adoration of women and his ability to comfort and empathisize
with them.
This ability in a vampire - makes him a dangerous character, a
sexual predator. As we see when he seduces Sheila in School Hard
and in his scene with Willow in
the Initiative. He is probably the most sexually seductive
character anyone in the history of tv has created - that I've
seen. He's certainly Joss Whedons'.
So to sum up this long rambling response - I think it's both. I
think he does truly empathsize and I think he does manipulate it,
using his charm to get what he wants. That said, I think the
character is complex enough that he does not always do this...i
think both his comfort scenes with
Anya - Entropy and Where the Wild Things Are - were genuine,
because he was feeling exactly what she was and they were
commiserating. Just as I think his comforting of Buffy in fool for
Love was genuine. Part of the problem of not having a soul - is
it's hard to judge when being manipulative is such a bad
thing.
"The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that Spike
will return incognito, either deliberately or in a soul-induced
state of amnesia. Possibly his hair will have turned black
overnight and curly with shock (hey, if a beetle up your nose
doesn't curl your hair, nothing will)...."
Totally agree. I think part of the reason Marsters is a very happy
actor is Whedon has finally decided to let the poor guy get off
the peroxide. Can you imagine his poor
scalp? Yes, I'm convinced when they see him again, they
won't recognize him. We will...but they won't. Not at first.
And by the time they do...they may see him as something
different?
"I am completely blown away, Shadowkat, at your insight that both
Spike and Willow "turn" at the same moment,"
Thanks! This is the reason I thought the trials are so bloody
important and I disagree with the people who thought they
shouldn't have been shown. Those trials link directly to what is
going on with Willow and the Scoobs and remphasize the theme that
we have to go through trials and tribulations to grow up.
1. Fire in hands - willow shoots magic from hands : they
even shift to Spike when she does it in Two to go. (fire of
vengeance)
2. The beetles crawling all over him - Willow has black magic text
crawling all over her. (rage and hate)
3. The two demons he defeats by cutting off their heads -
Willow tries to get Andrew and Jonathan - who are carrying
swords, Buffy/Dawn defeat demons with the same swords (don't know
- frustration and grief?)
Oh and the two characters stripped of all color but black and
white = Willow and Spike.
If they don't do a commiseration scene between these two
or have them help one another in some way...then ME has missed a
cool story and I'll be disappointed.
okay...hope this made sense...yep, it's late, should go to bed
now. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Spike in disguise -- shygirl, 06:30:49 06/02/02
Sun
How about if "William" showed up teaching an evening course in
poetry at the community college. I seem to remember that Buffy
hated leaving that class the most.... maybe she could re-
enroll.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Spike in disguise -- tost, 07:19:43 06/02/02
Sun
He'd make a great school librarian for Dawn.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Spike in disguise -- shadowkat, 07:36:00 06/02/02
Sun
Only problem with the school librarian for Dawn is that
she goes to school during the day and unless they make him human -
he can't be out in sunlight...I guess you could explain a
librarian with an allergy to sunlight.
Tried the teacher one - but how does he get the job? I guess he
could forge papers or something and get it. Personally like that
one - but it has too many plot-point
difficulties for them to do it. (ie. Writer's nightmare
to set up.)
1. first we have to get him back from Africa
2. then get him the position - don't you need to prove
degree or something? Though community colleges could be
different
3. he has to want to do it for some reason - so you need
to show motivation
Not saying you can't do it, but I've wrestled with the set up for
a while now and can't get it to work logically.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
How about -- tost, 10:49:20 06/02/02 Sun
he comes back by way of England and Giles, joins the watchers
council and is sent to Sunnydale ostensibly to keep an eye on the
Hellmouth but really to keep an eye on Dawn and her key
status.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: How about (spoilers to Grave and 7 specs) --
shadowkat, 13:13:44 06/02/02 Sun
Actually of the scenerios I've tried - that one's worked
the best. Personnally I liked him coming back human and icognito
as a Ripperish Watcher best - but they don't appear to be going
that route. So a vampire watcher?
Actually that could be way cool - who would know more about the
demon underworld and killing vampires than a vampire?
Also ties into Fool for Love - which made me think of a dark
session between Giles and Buffy.
Shadowkat's Spike scenerios:
1. Spike becomes human and turns into Rocco the vampire
hunter/watcher - equipped with a gun that shoots stakes
and wearing cross earrings and a cruxifix. Makes Giles
promise not to tell Buffy who he is, since they can never be
together because he hates who he was...etc. This one had
great potential - Giles gets him to help Willow and Will
finds out who he is and keeps it from Buffy, etc. (But
they won't do it - deciding to soul him instead...oh well, maybe
there's a fanfic writer who will do it. )
2. Spike gets ensouled and helps Buffy in secret, sort of like
Angel in Season 1, she never sees him, but gets all sorts of nice
little things and poems, poems that Halfrek recognizes...(Can see
ME doing this one - since they can keep us guessing about whether
he's good or not...) Also
I was able to go the furtherest on this one without getting stuck.
Xander calls this secret admirer the Mad Poet. He redeems himself
by saving Xander and Dawn from his old flame Drusilla who (and
don't scream at me Dru fans) he has
to sadly stake.
3. Spike gets a job at USC Sunnydale as a night school
history/19th century literature instructor, Dawn's friend (Janice)
sister is taking his class for a lit credit and
Janice gets a crush on him, when she audits the class with her
sister. Curious Dawn follows Janice to the class and discovers a
close resemblance to Spike. finally Dawn confronts him in his
basement office. They talk, Dawn convinces him to talk to Willow
because they can help each other....and Buffy finds out. And I got
stuck. Oh and when
he's not teaching he secretly helps and protects Buffy without her
knowledge. (don't see it - too romantic...)
4. Spike reopens the Magic Box as a used book store and ancient
relics store. Becomes a watcher and helps Dawn
5. Spike becomes anya's secret partner in the Magic Box and works
as a bouncer at Willy's
6. Spike becomes a librarian at the college but only works nights
- got stuck here too.
7. Spike goes to the council - tells them he'll give them
information, priceless info from Africa in return for:
1. a salary for Buffy 2. letting Dawn stay with Buffy
Council agrees as long as Spike becomes Buffy's watcher.
Spike says no deal, but Giles convinces him to reconsider and just
give his salary to Buffy. Also convinces him to help Willow. Spike
changes his name and style and becomes
the watcher?
8. Spike drifts for four months, returns amensiac, they find him
and care for him...he helps Buffy like Randy Giles did. (really
hate this one...but it has humourous possibilities and can see
them doing it.) Guilt overwhelms him at times - so he and Willow
help each other or they enter a 12-step program for former big
bads with Angel
and Anya as their sponsers.
9. spike is split in two, we have william and spike.
Sort of like the character of Norman Osborn in Spiderman
or dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde - also don't see this happening,
too complicated. Besides they already did a duality theme
in Season 5. Can't be redundant, can we?
10. Spike returns as nasty william, he has a soul, but he's pissed
so he is the next BB, clever, and nasty. Nope can't see this one
working. got stuck on the first paragraph in my head, also very
redundant. Let's face it - he was BB
in Season 2 and they've pretty much exhausted the villainous
possibilities for him theme wise, metaphor wise, and buffyverse
wise. Nope not workable.
Read some others...in fanfic that are far more fanciable and
crazy then these.
To work - must remember Buffy formula:
1. Buffyverse canon and mythos and show is ALL ABOUT BUFFY,
we may hate it - but there it is.
2. Metaphor - likes to refer to films, comics, myth, etc
to reinforce certain psychological and literary themes
about female empowerment and hero's journeys
3. Real World Rational/Literal View - must have some real
life theme - ie. grow up, don't have S&M sex with the bad boy,
drugs...narcissism..
And finally, Spike must be supporting character not main
character. Main characters = Buffy, Willow and Xander,
supporting: Giles, Spike, Anya, Dawn. So if Spike takes over the
story - whoops, won't happen.
keeping all these in my mind - I predict scenerios:Spike
as the mad poet secret admirer, or possibly the watcher
that giles brings back or the randy giles character.
Thoughts? Yep, must get a life and a new job soon...;-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: How about (spoilers to Grave and 7 specs) -- shygirl,
13:55:46 06/02/02 Sun
"Buffyverse canon and mythos and show is ALL ABOUT BUFFY,
we may hate it - but there it is."
Okay, where can I read this cannon. I'm new to the Buffy thing and
have been watching the old episodes... Watching the show, it
doesn't look to me as though is is ALL ABOUT BUFFY. It looks like
she is the first person point of view, the lens through which we
preceive and experience Sunnydale and therefore the world/reality.
The story may be told from her point of view, but it's not just
her story. If it were, her storylines would be more dominant IMO.
I see a broader view, a microcosm of what is going on in the real
world brought down to the personal perspective so it can be
explored, dissected, discussed, analyzed, and understood and so
that the characters can grow. Life isn't about any ONE individual
person, that's a conceit we have about ourselves when we are
young. But as we get older, we begin to see the larger picture. I
see it so much in play in Sunnydale. I acknowledge that the show
would end if Buffy left, but that's tv.... the universe of Buffy
and the people who inhabit it would continue because the
philosophical questions and ethical issues this program presents
can not be killed off by a sponsor or a network. I'm sorry if I'm
stepping on toes and offending. It's just my opinion.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: How about (spoilers to Grave and 7 specs) --
shadowkat, 14:20:47 06/02/02 Sun
"Buffyverse canon and mythos and show is ALL ABOUT BUFFY,
we may hate it - but there it is."
"Okay, where can I read this cannon. I'm new to the Buffy thing
and have been watching the old episodes... Watching the show, it
doesn't look to me as though is is ALL ABOUT BUFFY."
Not stepping on toes- would love it if you were right but from
what I've seen, Buffy's still the central focus. Personnally I
find the
other characters more interesting. But I got it from Joss
Whedon who said it in a few interviews. And his writers.
Also from James Marsters who said Whedon informed him he'd get
fans and get email, but not to let it go to his head because the
show is Buffy's - she's the lead and if it
serves her character to stake him, he will. Just as if it serves
his story to kill Buffy he will then he'll bring her
back. But the show centers on her and her journey. That's
what Whedon said. The formula can be found on
www.spoilerslayer.com - which is more: Buffy saves the
world, defeats a BB with help from little bad. Actually
there's more to it than that - but my memory is faulty on exact
wording. For more on Buffy formulas - go to the links at top of
page and wiser minds have it down.
The show works - because it surrounds Buffy with very rich
characters. But if you've been watching the series - you'll note
she is in almost every scene and the action in most
cases not all centers around her. As Marsters put it - you get the
most screen time if you are fighting, boinking or
interacting with Buffy.
Now over the years - they've made Willow and Xander equally
important - except this year, in which you rarely see Xander. Why?
Buffy coming back to life is tough and the
best parallel was Willow - so this year Willow got the big
story, because she enriched Buffy's.
You're right - life does not revolve around one person,
but hey...this is BTvs. In Angel - it revolves around
pretty much Angel - regrettably, I'm more interested in
Weseley...but we only see Wesley to learn more about Angel's
conflict. Doing this gives both shows a focus - so that the
stories don't go every which way and make cohesive
sense - narrative flow. You could do it with multiple narratives
and have it be All About 6 characters - but that
gets a tad confusing, unless of course you are a soap opera and on
every day of the week.
Hope this ramble clarified things...;-)
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My list -- Malandanza, 21:34:06 06/02/02 Sun
"Actually of the scenerios I've tried - that one's worked
the best. Personally I liked him coming back human and icognito as
a Ripperish Watcher best - but they don't appear to be going that
route. So a vampire watcher?"
The scenario that makes the most sense to me is to have Spike
become human again, partly because of the wish: he didn't, no
matter how much you fold, spindle or mutilate the English
language, ask to become a vampire with a soul. If the Cave Demon
is in the wish granting business, he's not very good at it if he
turns Spike into Angel.
I also think there was foreshadowing from Season Five with Doc, in
Forever:
DOC: Hold your horses…(sees Spike) I know you.
SPIKE: Don't think so, mate.
DOC (confused) No, you're that guy. That guy always hangs around
down at the corner mart. Big into dominos, aren't you?
SPIKE: Can't say that I am. Look, we came because-
DOC: That's crazy, isn't it? I'd swear you were him. I mean,
your hair's a different color and you're a vampire, but other
than that…(then) What day is it, anyway?
DAWN: Monday.
DOC: No kidding? Would have sworn it was Wednesday… see, that's
the brain - first thing to go. (back to Spike) Guy's name is
Rocko. That's not your name, is it?
I see Doc as having some prophetic abilities (obviously not
perfect, since he didn't see the whole Buffy defeating Glory thing
coming) and, as he has gotten older, has trouble distinguishing
between things that have happened and will happen. So he
"remembers" Spike from a future time.
I don't see the WC in Spike's future at all. Buffy is big on
second chances, but the watchers are not (just ask Faith, Giles
and Wesley). Nor do I see him helping Willow -- he'll have his
own problems and neither of them can focus on others when they're
wallowing in self-pity (the Spike/Anya dialogue reads like twin
monologues).
For human Spike I see a few possibilities:
1. Returned as William -- all memories gone from the moment just
before he was vamped until present. Technically, it's what he
wished for. The problem is: how and why does he get back to
Sunnydale? I'd say a matchbook from a Sunnydale bar might lead
him in search of his identity, except he uses a lighter. Some
other momento might work -- but this theory seems too
problematic.
2. Restored as a human but with his memories intact. He heads
back to Sunnydale when he discovers that the Cave Demon isn't the
least bit interested in reversing the wish. The Scoobies help him
out (of course). When Spike is in trouble, he knows that Buffy
and her friends will help him -- they have done so in the past
when he was a soulless vampire and I cannot imagine them turning
away a suffering human. But what will they do with him? He
doesn't have any marketable skills. I'd love to see him working
at some of the dead-end jobs Xander had to suffer through (and
that Buffy is currently working at). To magically provide him
with a well-paying sinecure (is that redundant?) while Buffy
suffers at a menial job while watching Dawn and slaying doesn't
seem fair somehow. He should have to work for a living for the
first time in his unlife -- the days of "want, take, have" are in
the past for Rocko (seems like it should be Rocco, but then I
thought Rack should be Wrack).
3. Human and evil. I agree with you, I don't buy it. What
possible threat could he be? Warren, Jonathan and Andrew at least
had talents. As an evil human, he's about as scary as Harmony.
We might see a Darlesque path, with Spike trying to find someone
who'll revamp him.
The other possibility is that the Cave Demon never had any
intention of granting Spike's wish. The tests were for nothing --
all along the Demon really planned on making Spike the latest
vampire with a soul. And a chip. Ok, it's funny. The demon has
a sense of humor. But how does this further the cause of the
Forces of Darkness? Well, it doesn't, but it doesn't have to.
Spike can be an object lesson for the other Dark Warriors -- this
is what happens to you when you lose your sense of purpose and
abuse the powers you were given. Or it could just be punishment
for his hubris -- marching into the cave and demanding
assistance -- not genuflecting obsequiously and assuming the
respectful facade of a penitent who has strayed and now returned
to the fold, contrite and obedient.
Whatever the reasons, he could be a second Angel. Wallowing in
guilt, burdened by a conscience, brooding and weeping and reading
existential literature. Not even much use to the good guys any
longer. Give him a few decades and he might come around, start to
enjoy life again in spite of the guilt and become a useful member
of society. Just like Angel. Except I can't see ME repeating the
Angel experience -- it wasn't that interesting the first time
around. So if they follow this path, I think it will be to set up
a contrast between the path that Angel took and the path that
Spike is on.
1. We really will see a Jekyl and Hyde split with Spike. Angel
was able to keep Angelus under control most of the time (but he'd
had a century of practice) -- Spike won't. Sometimes we will get
Weeping William and sometimes the old Spike, more annoyed than
ever about the soul, speaking of his souled self in third person
and, in general, blaming Buffy for the latest mess he's gotten
himself into.
2. The personalities will be integrated in a way that was
impossible for Angelus and Angel. Possible for William and Spike
because Spike's demon and William's personality are weaker than
Angelus' and Liam's. So we get Spike-lite -- like the old Spike,
but now 50% more caring and considerate, with 37% less S&M in his
sexplay with the slayer, same amount of empathy, but now 40% less
likely to use it to kick people when they're down. Spuffy
shippers everywhere rejoice!
3. Spike is still in control -- the soul makes things
uncomfortable, but he can push ahead. So Spike goes on a
pilgrimage to get rid of the chip and the soul -- from one evil
wish granting demon to another, getting more and more cursed with
each ill-phrased demand. By the time he returns to Sunnydale, he
can't even pick flowers without being wracked by pain. And even
drinking pig's blood leaves him tearfully protesting against the
slaughter of animals while choking down the blood.
Actually, I think the Spike/Buffy "romance" is at an end.
Grave settled the issue for me when Buffy crawled out of
the ground into the light. It's taken her all season, but Buffy
is back. She no longer needs a crutch to help her get through her
day without killing herself or wishing she was dead. And there is
no place in the light for a monster -- not Angel, and certainly
not Spike: human, souled or otherwise.
I also think he will have been gone from Sunnydale for several
months when the season begins again. Buffy will have had time to
forget -- he won't be able to win her back with a leer and a
smirk.
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Re: Spike in disguise -- shygirl, 13:37:47 06/02/02
Sun
Well actually no, he might not have to prove a degree... and
besides, those can be forged rather easily. It's been done. It is
easier to get a job teaching at a community college... espeically
if it is continuing education or non-credit..sort of a visiting
expert poet type of position. (yes, I work at a community
college). He could offer to teach an 6-8 week seminar in Victorian
poetry.
Heck, he could even decide to enroll in a poetry writing class
himself. And who knows, Buffy might decide to go back and take a
class for fun... you know, to lighten things up a bit... to get
back into life ...
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shadowkat, excellent as always! A question about the hair
thing... -- Deeva, 08:29:20 06/02/02 Sun
Totally agree. I think part of the reason Marsters is a very
happy actor is Whedon has finally decided to let the poor guy get
off the peroxide. Can you imagine his poor scalp?
So JM will not be bleaching his hair for Spike in S7? Where did
you hear that? Just wondering cuz it's news to me.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: shadowkat, excellent as always! A question about the hair
thing... -- shadowkat, 13:20:02 06/02/02 Sun
"Totally agree. I think part of the reason Marsters is a very
happy actor is Whedon has finally decided to let the poor guy get
off the peroxide. Can you imagine his poor scalp?"
"So JM will not be bleaching his hair for Spike in S7? Where did
you hear that? Just wondering cuz it's news to me"
sorry didn't mean to suggest it was true - it's just speculation
on my part. In Marsters last interview he suggested he was coming
back different. This is before we knew about the ensouling. He
also said he was a very happy actor. The two things I know he
hates are:1. Dying the hair
and 2. No tanning. So using logic here...and thinking hmmm
what would make the guy happy?
On the other hand - Whedon thinks he's sexier with the white hair
so maybe it stays. Just wondering how they plan on showing change
in him, besides clothing of course. Sorry
no duster - he left that at Buffy's and I think Xander took
it.
[>
my head has spun around and exploded - KABOOM! --
ponygirl, 17:31:50 06/02/02 Sun
[>
And another thing... -- vandalia, 23:03:44 06/02/02
Sun
Just want to say this makes a lot of sense, and I was getting the
same feeling re: Willow and Spike being able to commiserate... But
this really struck me (and bolsters your theory!)
Angel and Buffy catch up to Spike and they inadvertently help
him fight off a bunch of the Mayor’s thugs hired to rid the town
of Spike.
And why did the Mayor decide he had to hire thugs to get rid of
Spike? Let's look at the shooting script:
MAYOR
(fondly)
Well, yes, he got up to all sorts of
shenanigans last year. Had a world
of fun just trying to guess what he'd
do next! Funny guy.
DEPUTY MAYOR
I remember.
MAYOR
But I guess we're past that, now.
This year is too important to let a
loose cannon rock the boat.
The Mayor is a warrior of darkness and has been for over a century
("I married my Edna Mae in aught three and I was with her right
until the end. Not a pretty scene. Wrinkled and senile and cursing
me for my youth, it wasn't our happiest time." -- Choices,
Season 3) For him to call Spike a 'loose cannon' supports your
'tainted by good' argument. Or at least tainted by chaos. :) Even
the Mayor saw it, and didn't want it in his town. He also didn't
try to recruit Spike, which he well could have. And why would the
Mayor have a hard time trying to guess what an evil vampire would
do next? Pretty predictable creatures, aren't they? Kill, crush,
destroy...
[> [>
Re: And another thing... -- Ronia, 23:38:50 06/02/02
Sun
WOW!, So that's what's known as retrospect. Very astute..
Current board
| June 2002