May 2003 posts
Opinion of Buffy Series Final- -- Spike Lover,
12:09:51 05/21/03 Wed
Ok, I understood it, but I DID NOT like it.
I have sort of glanced over the posts and I see that some of you
have had the same sort of questions I initially did, but this
is what I got out of it...
This season final was connected to Season 6, and it was heavy
Because it was so heavy on symbolism, or perhaps because they
did not bother with a 2-hour season final, they did not put much
to character or plot.
There was only ONE scene that I truly liked and believed, and
that was the "I'm the pretty one" scene with Faith and
With the exception of Caleb at the beginning getting up and kicking
more ass, I pretty much hated the entire ep.
The BIG Question is WHY did they kill off Anya. They had to to
make the theme/symbolism work.
The theme was "Vanquishing your inner demons". (Also
illustrated by the fact that the demons are INSIDE the earth,
and that Dawn refuses to run away. Compare to demon that chased
Will and Dawn when Willow was strung out on magic.)
Q) why did Anya die, and why wasn't she paired up with Xander
rather than Andrew?
A) Anya was symbolic of Xander's inner demons. (Although it was
really his relationship with his family.) It really goes back
to "Something Blue" when Willow states that he is a
demon magnet. Anya comes on the scene after the fiasco with Cordy
and sabatoging that relationship with Cordy by cheating with Willow,
a girl he was never interested in until he had something good.
(A generalization, admittedly).
Symbolically, they pair him up with Dawn, a human girl, average
and equal to him. His inner demon, lack of self confidence, has
been killed. He has a future. (And it is bright -sunlight- in
Why I hated it...(Never mind that he still has not addressed his
family issues, or leaving a fiancee at the altar, etc. The writers
Q) Why did Anya say "Bunnies" when the vamps attacked.
A) Again, the thought of a bunny was enough to make Anya run for
cover or jump on a table. She is able to visualize the vamps as
bunnies in order to fight them. She has conquered her 'inner demon'
symbolically, but not really plot or character wise.
Faith has men issues. The continuing relationship with Woods is
to show that she too is going to deal/face them.
Willow: power issues. She confronts her fear of power by doing
this big spell that does not turn her dark, but light. Symbolically,
too, she has gotten over her trouble, but plotwise/characterwise,
she has never worked out her feelings of insignificance, longings
for power, etc brought up in season 6, so this too does not work
Buffy: She has many, many demons, and the writers failed to deal
with any of them adequately. But the ones they used for the Season
final is this: She is the Only slayer and thus can not plan a
future because of the great burden she bears. She has love issues.
I think when she sees the 1st as herself, she might realize she
is her own worst enemy. By activating the other slayers she is
not only the only one now. And she is finally able to tell Spike
she loves him.
I have to agree with Spike. It was such a wimpy pronouncement,
I was skeptical. But anyway, the big hole in Sunnydale and the
open road in the desert ahead was suppose to show that the future
is bright and wide open for Buffy.
Spike: His big inner demon was being love's bitch. He always needed
the love of a woman (mom, Cecily, Dru, Buffy). He was lost without
it. It was how he defined himself.
I know that the light that pours through him was suppose to be
a light of God, or something so good, pure, something so loving,
that it could wipe out the vampires, and ultimately kill the vampire
demon within him.
*But they did not say that or explain that- so I fault the writers
Anyway, when Buffy finally tells him she loves him, for the first
time, he does not need it. He is complete and whole without a
woman's love. (Contrast this to the AR in the bathroom scene.)
Whether she did or did not love him, no longer mattered. He was
no longer going to crumble. And his demise SHOULD have made us
glad, as it should have assured us that his soul was on its way
to heaven or whatever. But they didn't bother with that either.
Giles: He has done basically nothing this entire season. He has
had a few speeches, but mainly one liners. I suggest that symbolically
he was nothing more than a memory in B,X, & W's head. He might
as well have been hatcheted by the bringers. Therefore, it was
Buffy arguing with herself (symbolically) about the fate of Spike
in the graveyard while Woods was attacking him. And symbolically,
she shuts the door on everything he had taught her. Sort of one
of those... What would Giles say if he were here things.
Perhaps also because Giles was already an adult,(although can
happen at any age) he does not face any inner demons. Woods similarly
does not have any to address which may be why they paired them
I continue to wonder why they allowed Andrew to live, except to
continue (a different) theme of redemption is possible for everyone.
(which might be why they paired him with Anya.)
Overall, *I hated the lack of emotion. This was one of the most
emotionless, dramaless season finals I have seen. (The first season
final was pretty cut and dry too, though.)
There were plenty of opportunities for high drama in this final
ep, and it could have been easily achieved with possibly another
hour, or maybe some better or additional dialogue. What were the
characters feeling before the final battle to open the seal? In
season 5, we knew what they felt. Terror. Sadness. Xander proposed!
Spike was invited back into the house. It was very, very gripping/touching.
It was great.
What are they doing before the final battle with the FE and vamps?
Playing D & D? Give me a break.
Buffy announces that she loves Spike? My question: Since when?
It should have been a BIG DEAL. If it had not been for the vanquishing
your demons theme, I think his response should have been: "I
know." And it seems to me that if she truly loved Spike,
she would have felt more of a loss at his death. (But no, she
is too excited at finally having a future! Ingrate!)
And Spike's last moments could have been so much bigger. For once,
he is REALLY being used as an instrument of GOOD. And he was happy
It could have been so much better if they had had him talk about
what he was feeling before the final battle (or even earilier
in the season). Now that he had a soul, what were his desires
(aside from Buffy). Did he want to try to atone? Did he long to
go to Heaven? To truly have God love him and forgive him (see
him hugging the cross at season opener). Did he want his chance
to save the world? Did he want his pain to be over? But, no, they
never bothered to explore that.
Finally I will go back to my old standby. Poor, inferior Writing.
I wish they had stopped with Season 5.
That is my $ .02. I am sorry if it offends anyone.
[> For some reason.......
-- Walking Turtle, 12:34:59 05/21/03 Wed
For some reason this post reminds me of the student who told his
his parents he "did't learn nothing" from his class
professor [me] -- His parents were mollified when I told them
what "did't learn nothing" meant.
Clearly this post is satire!!!!!!!!!!!!! For example, Spike knocked
down the Sunnydale sign....Again
[> Re: Opinion of Buffy
Series Final- -- sdev,
22:32:27 05/21/03 Wed
Great analysis. Too much ambivalence in many characters till the
final moments. Felt contrived and emotionally untrue. I sort of
felt this coming by Touched because too many things were still
up in the air at that late date. I wish they had done this episode
the week before and had a wrap up a-la Season 4 for the series
Plus the cookie dough analogy made me cringe.
[> [> Agreeing- --
Spike Lover, 08:28:43 05/22/03 Thu
Hated the cookie dough. Hated most of it as it was EMOTIONALLY
AND LOGICALLY UNTRUE.
We could have all been weeping and gnashing our teeth, like I
did at the end of Season 2 or Season 5. But this was just- horrible.
I am SO ANGRY THAT THEY KILLED ANYA. With not much said before
and not much said afterward.
THEY TRULLY RESOLVED NOTHING, BUT THEY LET MANY CHARACTERS OFF
THE HOOK. (Kind of like allowing the surviving duo to escape to
Mexico last season.)
I am looking to the future now. Wondering what I will be doing
on Tuesday nights now, after so many years of spending them at
Hoping that there will be more of Wesley and Lilah in next season's
we're intellectuals (farewell to Buffy from The Independent Review,
slight spoilery) -- Celebaelin, 12:35:03 05/21/03 Wed
The front covers shows a gravestone with the following words on
(OR WHY THE WORLD'S INTELLECTUALS ARE IN MOURNING)
Buffy and fangs for the memories by Boyd Tonkin
[> Do you think he was referring
to ATPo?? -- Masq, 12:52:50 05/21/03 Wed
yet one of my favourite websites explains the presiding themes
of Western philosophy through the twists of Buffy's plot and the
foibles of its characters.
Unclear from other things he says in the text and the lack of
[> [> Re: Do you think
he was referring to ATPo?? -- Celebaelin, 13:14:31 05/21/03
That's how it sounded to me but you can't be 100% certain obviously.
My understanding is that ED will not be reprising Faith in the
near future and I hadn't read that JE quote before so whilst I
suspect that Mr. Tonkin is a visitor here, or possibly even a
poster, he has other sources apart from ATPo.
[> [> I have that stuck
on my pinboard in my office! -- Rahael, 14:27:32 05/21/03
That front cover - my co-workers cut it out and gave the article
to me! They always save Buffy articles for me, but this was the
best one I've been given.
I'm pretty sure it was you Masq - I can't think of any other site
which fits the bill, especially the way he puts it.
[> [> [> I considered
"Above the Law" -- Masq, 14:49:26 05/21/03 Wed
A Brit site, after all, and it does talk metaphysics, etc., in
addition to legal issues.
*urgh* I wish they'd included a link. I could very possibly be
doubling my hits even now.
Of course, today being the day after the last ep of Buffy, my
site is already doubling its usual hits. People need to commiserate.
[> [> [> [> Naw,
it's all you -- d'Herblay, 15:40:42 05/21/03 Wed
[O]ne of my favourite websites explains the presiding themes
of Western philosophy through the twists of Buffy's plot
and the foibles of its characters.
Above The Law in its classic form took its shape as an anthology
of essays; your site, on the other hand, is specifically organized
episode by episode, following the "twists of Buffy's
plot," with separate analyses of the "foibles of its
characters" (sometimes two or three, when one factors in
the "good of . . . ", "evil of . . . ", and
"moral ambiguity of . . . " sections). It's you. It's
I suppose that one could desire clearer confirmation than my assurances.
Boyd Tonkin, the author of the article in question, has a paper
in Fighting the Forces; perhaps he has a bibliography that
will make clear his debt to you. Anyone want to check?
[> [> [> [> [>
Oh, also, if I recall correctly . . . -- d'Herblay, 15:43:13
. . . Boyd Tonkin was Boke!
Ok, I'm just kidding on that one.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> A bit paranoid are we? -- Masq, 15:52:17 05/21/03
Boke, aquaman (mentioned in your LJ). We know you are the god
of (ATPo) Trolls, but now you're saying one of them has posted
praise of my website in a well-known British publication?
Can't happen. ; )
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Just saying that . . . -- d'Herblay, 16:12:19
. . . perhaps I should be a little more circumspect in classifying
people as trolls -- one never knows who they'll grow into!
Seriously, though, when I decided that Tonkin was definitely referring
to your site, I began to wonder whether or not he'd ever been
here (it's not a definite correspondence, reading your site and
reading the board -- I came to ATPo regularly for two years before
I ever clicked on the "Discussion Board" link). We have
such a limited number of British posters, I can't imagine he's
here now, not revealing himself. (I don't think he's either KdS
or TCH, and slain has an alibi. I've completely eliminated the
possibility that he's Rahael.) So I'm left wondering if he lurks
here, or if he visited the board once and didn't like what he
saw, or, thought with much trepidation, we scared him away.
(On the other hand, "Boyd Tonkin," "Jim Boke Tomlin"
-- there's a certain assonance!)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Well, I'd be flattered -- Masq, 16:20:43
A literary editor and all that....
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Or.. er... -- Masq, 16:28:54
I'd be flattered if he came to the board, I AM flattered he likes
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Giggling evilly -- Tchaikovsky, 16:37:55
I don't think he's either KdS or TCH.
Well, I have several times claimed to be an undergraduate student
near Birmingham doing a maths degree, but that could have all
been a devious aquaman-esque ploy to see how the responses to
my posts changed. I can now exclusively reveal that I am TCH,
KdS, Rahael, d'Herblay and Masq! Bet you didn't see that coming...
I've completely eliminated the possibility that he's Rahael.
TCH- who, to quell any rumours, is an entirely one-nickname poster.
Any resemblance to posting styles of people alive or dead is entirely
co-incidental, (although I do occasionally pretend to be one of
the cool posters, who doesn't?)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Well, then, in the spirit of Sophist's
thread . . . -- d'Herblay, 07:17:18 05/22/03 Thu
. . . I'd like to thank TCH for being everyone and being here
and providing us with such humor and insight and pathos and erudition
and just good times. I particularly remember such works by TCH
(under various names) as "Oil is the lifeblood of your car!"
and the Dawn character analyses, and the Super-Evil reviews, and
the Season 6 comparison of metaphors on Buffy and Angel,
and the entire memes thread, and all the explications of Buddhism,
Joseph Campbell, Gnosticism, Hawaiian culture, evolutionary psychology
and Deep Space Nine. I don't know what I would do without
TCH, but I know that it would be a little less bright, a little
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> That's the way -- Tchaikovsky,
11:09:39 05/22/03 Thu
Except you're me, which means I'm complimenting myself, and it's
all just horribly hollow. I'm thinking I shouldn't re-watch 'Normal
Again' any time soon.
And seriously, I agree with your love of all that stuff, and hooray
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> It does sound like pseudonym -- Celebaelin,
18:29:01 05/21/03 Wed
This thought crossed my mind at a gentle saunter when I posted
earlier, tonking is a slang word for huge, as in "there is
this tonkin' great discussion board". Boyd? Boyed?
Bouyed? None of this means that Boyd Tonkin is not the
guys' real name however. The style is not recognisably similar
to aquaman's to my mind but it could be him, he needn't be filing
from the UK to be published in a British newspaper of course.
I'm pretty sure adjusting his style for the publication of a review
article would be well within his capabilities. One can only speculate.
At any rate the article is affectionate and the use of a nom-de-plume
doesn't necessarily imply any hostile manipulative motivation
(I'm tempted to reveal my Christian name at this point, but I'm
not actually going to for some unfathomable reason).
[> Yes, I think it referred
to the rest of you! :> -- WickedBuffy, 13:29:41 05/21/03
on Chosen, power, choices, flipping the board (spoilers 7.22)
-- s'kat, 13:05:50 05/21/03 Wed
What to say about this episode? How to add to what has already
been said? Probably not much...so forgive me if I repeat what's
been said below.
The ending didn't surprise me. Actually it was very close in some
ways to what I'd already pictured in my head, believe it or not.
I had three scenerios and the one I got, while not perfect, was
the best of the three. (I'm Not telling my other two - so don't
Nor was it my favorite season finale - that is still Becoming
Parts I&II. Why? Because, they were the tightest, the most
layered and advanced every single character, they were also the
most tragic. Close second is probably Restless followed by the
But I did like Chosen. I liked it's message - of the empowerment
of the human spirit, of female empowerment, of choosing our own
destiney and sharing that power, and not having to make it work
with some guy or gal before we're ready. That love can be more
than "romantic love", that it's not limited to that.
I loved what Buffy said to Angel in this episode - it's what I've
been trying to say for weeks, yet having troubles making myself
"I'm unbaked cookie dough - I'm not done yet - not ready
to make it work with some guy, nor do I have to - I want to figure
out who I am first...if that's okay with you." Ie. Spike
is in my heart, along with you Angel...it's not about who's my
boyfriend or who I'll have kids with...I'm not there right now.
I don't know when I will be. (Makes sense...she is only 22 after
all and she's spent most of her life slaying demons. Now she can
finally focus on other things.)
Amulets and Scythe's.
Caroline posted recently about male/female dichotimes. (Please
forgive me Caroline - if I garble or misunderstand any of what
you said in your posts - I didn't print them off and/or save them
so this is purely by memory.) Anyways - in it, if memory serves,
she mentioned how for the female power - we needed a masculine
counter-point. (I think I got that right) Throughout the series
Spike has been Buffy's masculine counter-point or shadow. Even
as early as Season 2, he seemed to be her foil - his actions contrasted
with hers. In Becoming he helps her save the world echoing her
desire to bring back the lover. But she must kill hers, he carries
his away unconscious. She saves the world in spite of her lover.
He saves the world because of his lover.
(That's in Becoming). Now years later - we have Buffy and Spike
saving the world again. Except it is very different this time
- it's no longer about past lovers or new ones. It's about something
bigger than that. She does it through sharing her power with others
- making it so she is not the only one out there. Not the one
girl in all the world.
In the previous episode, End of Days - Faith and Buffy discuss
how they are alone. That in all the world it is their burden alone
to carry and how it isolates them.
A comment that is ironically echoed by the FE/Buffy in the basement.
A comment that sounds eerily like Buffy herself in Selfless and
countless other episodes. And it is in that moment she has her
epiphany, what if I'm not the only one?
What if...I flip over the board?
Remember Gunn's line to Fred in Inside Out?
Fred: Will it make a difference? If we are really are just
pieces being moved around a board.
Gunn: Then we kick it over and start a new game......Look,
monochrome can yap all he wants about no-names cosmic plan. ......The
final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you
greased. That last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's
the thing......You never know when you're taking it. It could
be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom. Or just
crossing the street deciding where to have brunch. So you just
treat it all like it was up to you. The World in the Balance...cause
you never know when it is.
The SG's final act together is playing Dungeons and Dragons on
a game board. Buffy's final realization with the FE is that she's
been playing by the Watcher Council's rules.
The rule-book says she fights alone. She is the slayer.
But Buffy has never played by the rules, if she thinks about it.
Not once in her entire life. And that's why she's gonna win.
So she flips over the board and looks at the chess pieces and
asks the question - Do you want to play the game? You get to choose.
She doesn't treat them like pawns or minions or soliders. She
treats them like slayers. She makes all her pawns queens.
Same with Spike. Buffy nor Angel make Spike play. Buffy in fact
tells Spike that they don't know what the amulet does, it could
be volatile. But Spike is willing to take the risk, even if he's
not quite as confident about being called champion - "I've
been called a lot of things in my time but Champion has never
been one of them.."
The irony of the Spike and amulet story is well Angel.
If it weren't for Angel - Spike would not exist. He wouldn't be
a vampire. HE wouldn't have ever come to Sunnydale. He wouldn't
have fallen for Buffy. HE wouldn't have gotten a soul. And he
wouldn't have saved the world.
If Angel did not exist - William would have probably died of TB
back in 1880s. So Angel does not negate Spike - Angel informs
Spike - Spike is both the result of Angel's greatest sin and a
triumphe...of Angel's example. Nor for that matter does what happened
to Spike in any way negate Angel or his journey...if anything
it informs it...Spike shows Angel what being a champion is and
isn't. What it means to be human. The truly selfless act...an
act of no pride, just humility. Pure humility and courage and
selflessness - the act of the tragic hero as opposed to anti-hero.
"I've never been called a champion before..."
"I can feel it...my soul..it's really there, kinda stings."
"I love you." Buffy tells him. Spike responds:"
No you don't, but thanks for saying it."
Even though Angel never sees it. They inform each other, they
are to one another what Faith and Buffy are. Foils.
And if it weren't for Angel it would never have happened.
Angel brought the amulet. Angel does for Spike what Willow did
for Angel in Orpheus - he gives Spike a means of illuminating
his soul. The fact it was unintentional...is al the more important.
And Angel's act is a selfless one, since he could have forced
Buffy to accept him as the champion, but he doesn't. He respects
her enough to let her make the choice. Even if it isn't him...for
whatever reason she chooses. (Great performance by Boreanze by
the way - boy did he deserve that Saturn.)
Spike let Buffy go. Finally. His last words were in an odd way
an echo of hers to him last season. Where he insisted she loved
him and she said she didn't. Or all the times he told her he loved
her and she said he didn't. This round, he calmly looked at her
and told her...that she didn't but that was okay...now please
go so he can do what he needs to do.
The female power was to share. The male was to cleanse.
Spike's soul cleansed Sunnydale of it's evil. Cleansing purifying
power. As Angel states about the amulet:"Translation is uh...not
great, it's supposed to cleanse purify and there's scrubbing bubbles."
And Spike echoes: "You beat them back, now leave me to clean
Funny...I keep thinking of all the Fray posts where the Watchers
set themselves on fire - to be cleansed. And then I think of the
Shanshu Prophecy that Wolfram and Hart had in their keeping. Where
a vampire with a soul will be on one side of the apocalypse and
will make a choice, by giving up what he wants most in the world
- he will die and by dying live.
Wesley after a beat: "I think I know what it means."
Cordy: "A very wealthy man with just - no life at all?"
Wesley: "No. The word in the scroll."
He goes into Angel's office and the others follow.
Cordy: "That shoe shine thing?"
Wesley: "Shanshu." "If it isn't Phygian but instead
descends from the ancient Magyar's then its root is proto-Ugaric.
In which case it would mean..."
Wesley at his book: "Death."
Cordy: "But you said it was all about the vampire with the
soul. (Wesley looks at her then they both look at Angel, who is
reading his book as if he hadn't even heard Wesley) Angel's going
Wesley: "It's probably years off - ah, after the coming battles."
Cordy: "My raise?"
Wesley: "Apocalyptic prophecies aren't exactly a science.
And-and I could be way off the mark, so - no reason to be concerned."
Wesley looking at his books: "Ah - oops. - I may have made
a tiny mistake. (Angel sets the cup of blood down and gets up)
The word Shanshu that I said meant you were going to die? Actually
I think it means that you are going to live."
Cordy: "Okay, as tiny mistakes go - that's not one!"
Wesley: "Shanshu has roots in so many different languages.
The most ancient source is the Proto-Bantu and they consider
life and death the same thing, part of a cycle, only a thing that's
not alive never dies. It's- it's saying - that you get to
live until you die. - It's saying - it's saying you become human."
Cordy: "That's the prophecy?"
Wesley: "Ah, the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills
his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. - It's his reward."
Cordy: "Wow. Angel, human."
Angel: "That'd be nice."
Cordy: "Wait. What's that thing about him having to fulfill
his destiny first?"
Wesley: "Well, it's saying that it won't happen tomorrow
or the next day. He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic
battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many
- fiends that will be unleashed."
This of course does not mean only one vampire will shanshue. Or
that Spike has. But one wonders. After all...isn't that what happened
with the amulet and didn't W&H give the amulet to Angel? And W&H were
the ones with the shanshu scroll? I don't know. These ME prophecies
have multiple interpretations - just look how they inverted the
whole the father will kill the son thing.
Not sure it matters in light of Chosen. Because chosen is about
the human spirit. Anya who chooses to stay - not for Xander, but
for herself. She chooses to go out fighting for the lame humans
and her death is without fan fair. Unlike The Gift - she doesn't
die to save Xander. Unlike Graduation Day...she doesn't leave
town to save herself. She fights because its worthwhile. And in
a thousand years? She may have finally found herself, besides
her male counter-part Andrew.
Each person in this episode chooses their fate. Spike chooses
to wear the amulet, an amulet he knows very little about - next
to nothing. That was brought to Buffy by a man/vampire he doesn't
trust. But he trusts in her and himself and chooses to wear it
even though it scares him. And when the light shining from his
soul burns, he endures it, he doesn't take off the trinket, he
doesn't give up...he goes out laughing. Just as he once long ago
in School Hard killed the hope of all vampires - laughing. Spike
finally found his glowing moment - he finally became effulgent.
The irony of it must have hit him - hence the laughter.
I agree with Rufus' post below - saying sorry means very little
to the dead. It does not bring them back. Spike could not have
honored poor Nikki, the Chinese Slayer, or all the others he killed
more than by allowing his soul to consume the pure uber-vamps
and his vampire body as well. People posted how they wanted him
to ritually burn his black jacket - in an odd way he did. He lit
it up from within. It's not words that count sometimes so much
as actions. And Spike has always been an action sort of guy.
Anya chooses to stay and fight even though she's terrified. And
Andrew is right, she did save his life. She died saving someone
who she would have at one point killed without a thought. Someone
who had become a friend.
Willow choose to connect others - to feel the connection. And
spread the power. Instead of taking power - she gave it. She shared
it. Remember in Get it Done - how she takes power from Kennedy
and Anya to get the portal open. She believes that's how her power
works - to take and her hair turns black, her eyes become black
- just like Caleb's who similarly sees power as a taking - a prize.
But in the high-school, Willow does something else - she channels
the power through herself to others - she doesn't take - she channels
it and spreads it out across the world. Giving every woman the
choice to be empowered, to stand up on their own, to be whomever
or whatever they choose to become.
Faith chooses to fight alongside Buffy and share the power. And
Buffy, gets the same wound to her belly that she gave Faith ages
ago in Graduation Day. She gives Faith her ax and Faith swings
the scythe/ax to Rona and they share it, since it belongs to them
all. And Buffy looks up into the face of FE in the guise of herself
and forces it back - realizing once and for all, the FE only has
the power she gives it.
It's all about power...that's true. But it's also about how we
choose to use that power.
How we choose to share it. By giving Spike the amulet and telling
him - he is a champion - she finally allows her shadow to come
into the light, she allows him to shine.
And by doing so...she enters the next stage of her journey, exiting
the darkness and entering the light. By empowering Spike, she
empowers herself. And in a sense they both shanshu - Buffy shanshus
by spreading her power to others so she no longer has to be the
lone slayer in the night, isolated, the law, she can as her sister
and Faith tell her, be anything she desires - the future is now
an open-book with no clear expiration date.
And Spike shanshus by embracing the essence of his soul - the
soul he may have gotten in the Bantu region of Africa (although
the shooting script said Luganda), he becomes more than he was
- the redeeming light of his soul amplified a million times over
in the diamond face of the amulet - cleanses and purifies pulling
the hellmouth and all that surrounds it in on itself and extinguishing
Spike's demonic body in the process. To reach that perfect state
of "effulgence" - Spike dies. He dies to live. And Willow
also shanshus - she changes her magic from black to white...by
sharing the power, she herself becomes empowered - a goddess.
As Willow tells Buffy in the last scene : "We did more than
save the world - we changed it." They flipped over the game
board. Nothing will ever be the same now.
In a world of television series finales and messages - I'd say
that is a worthy one and certainly memorable. Maybe not perfect.
But nothing ever is.
Oh...some favorite gimmicks, for film buffs:
1. The use of the mirror in the bedroom - to see the group Buffy
is speaking too. Reminded me of Francis Ford Coppola's use of
Mirrors in Peggy Sue Got Married
2. The huge number of uber-vamps - cgi effect in the hellmouth
- right out of the Two Towers - actually that whole war was Two
Towers. With Spike in the role of Gandalf? Or Willow?
3. The light trick with Spike - reminded me of Lord of The Rings,
Raiders of the Lost Arc, and another movie that is somewhere in
my foggy brain but I can't grab hold of. Loved the light trick.
Also - loved the conversations with B/A, B/S, and W/F - great
Hope all of that made sense. Sorry so rambly and disjointed.
Sort of how my thoughts have been since seeing the episode, rambly
Thanks for reading.
[> Don't know what to say
- yes, yes. -- dream, terribly sad it's all over, 13:19:15
[> Re: Impressions on Chosen,
power, choices, flipping the board (spoilers 7.22) -- rowena,
13:27:41 05/21/03 Wed
That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However,
they did make me cry on my keyboard, shorting it out and causing
a small electrical fire that cast a glowing light on the ficus
tree next to my desk ... fire bad, tree pretty ... but it was
worth it. I'm serious about your beautiful words, though. They
perfectly express the essence of the show.
[> Re: Impressions on Chosen,
power, choices, flipping the board (spoilers 7.22) -- MaeveRigan,
13:28:41 05/21/03 Wed
"And Spike shanshus by embracing the essence of his soul
- the soul he may have gotten in the Bantu region of Africa (although
the shooting script said Luganda), he becomes more than he was..."
"Luganda" is a Bantu language, spoken by the Baganda
people of Uganda.
As for the rest of what you said, it makes all kinds of sense
and I most definitely agree. Thank you!
[> Fabulous as always
-- Dochawk, 13:28:48 05/21/03 Wed
I got a little teary reading this post... -- Belladonna, 13:44:57
[> Re: Impressions on Chosen,
power, choices, flipping the board (spoilers 7.22) -- leslie,
14:11:38 05/21/03 Wed
Still mulling this over. But in addition to your gimmicks, did
you notice that the only two people you see sleeping in this episode
are the ones who die?
I was thinking yesterday afternoon that the reason Buffy and Spike
make such a perfect pair (not in the romantic sense) is that she
embodies the principle of order and he embodies the principle
of chaos, and so the tension between the two of them basically
encompasses the whole of the human condition. Buffy's job is to
patrol the boundaries of the human and demon worlds; Spike insists
on standing with one foot on either side of the boundary, not
fully human, but never fully demonic, either. (Angel, I would
argue, can't really decide which side of the boundary he belongs
on--he wants to be on the human side, but always deep down suspects
that he is irrevokably on the demon side. This is why Angelus
is always lurking within him and threatening to burst out, while
Spike remains Spike even when he is Williamish and William even
when he is Spikey.)
So I think it is interesting that it is Spike who closes
the Hellmouth, drawing a permanent line between the human and
demon worlds, establishing the ultimate boundary, but does so
through the complete annihilation of the human town and the demonic
underworld. It is in many ways the apotheosis of the Trickster
as culture hero, destroying--often without really knowing what
he is getting into--so that a new beginning can arise out of chaos.
[> [> Wow... nice post!!
You too, sk! -- ponygirl (lock Voy lock!), 14:18:43 05/21/03
[> [> Yes...yes...Anya/Spike
comparison(spoilers 7.22) -- s'kat, 14:52:19 05/21/03 Wed
Oh...very good pick-up leslie. Yes, it is an episode that requires
lots of mulling.
But in addition to your gimmicks, did you notice that the only
two people you see sleeping in this episode are the ones who die?
Yes, I did notice it. But didn't think about it. And I should
have. Because it is so important. Spike and Anya - our two demons.
The chaotic pair for Xander and Buffy.
Interesting. Xander's first real girlfriend/love: Cordelia ends
up in love with and involved with Buffy's first boyfriend/love
Angel. Angel and Cordy are alike in the same way Spike and Anya
are. Angel can't decide which side to be on and this year? Neither
could Cordy. Both in a way representing the pros and cons of going
to either extreem.
JAsmine/White!Cordelia being the ultimate in order...the Beast/Angelus
the ultimate in chaos.
Anya - causes chaos as a vengeance demon yet yearns for order/stability.
But her vengeance does anything but.
Spike - causes chaos as Spike, yet as William years for orderly
flow of words and rhymes.
When no one else can sleep, when everyone else is awake with chaotic
thoughts, Anya and Spike are restful. Sleeping. And Anya and Spike
are the ones who make the sacrifice.
Buffy's job is to patrol the boundaries of the human and demon
worlds; Spike insists on standing with one foot on either side
of the boundary, not fully human, but never fully demonic, either.
(Angel, I would argue, can't really decide which side of the boundary
he belongs on--he wants to be on the human side, but always deep
down suspects that he is irrevokably on the demon side. This is
why Angelus is always lurking within him and threatening to burst
out, while Spike remains Spike even when he is Williamish and
William even when he is Spikey.)
So I think it is interesting that it is Spike who closes the Hellmouth,
drawing a permanent line between the human and demon worlds, establishing
the ultimate boundary, but does so through the complete annihilation
of the human town and the demonic underworld. It is in many ways
the apotheosis of the Trickster as culture hero, destroying--often
without really knowing what he is getting into--so that a new
beginning can arise out of chaos.
Yes, I agree with this. And it is so consistent with his character
- from the very beginning we see him knocking over the Welcome
to Sunnydale sign. The Mayor who loves order - tells Trick to
get rid of Spike immediately when Spike drunkenly returns to town
in Lover's Walk - realizing Spike's chaotic presence could greatly
disrupt his plans.
Just as it disrupted Angelus. As the Mayor states "So I hear
we have a Spike problem. He was up to all sorts of mischief last
year...we never knew what he was going to do." And neither
does the audience. HE's the wild card in the deck or the chess
piece that can move in any direction.
No wonder the FE tried to take him out early on.
But Anya is also a tricky card. We never knew which way she'd
go. The female equivalent of Spike. Representative of the chaotic
influence of vengeance. Perhaps the reason she dies fighting for
Andrew and without too much fan fair is that vengeance has disspaited...it's
no longer in the air? Andrew - who the SG felt feelings of vengeance
towards in the beginning of the year, has been forgiven. Anya's
chaotic power came from vengeance...but since vengeance is gone...she
fights for love...and dies, ironically defending the very person
she at one time may have destroyed.
Perhaps the reason both sleep...is they are no longer chaotic?
They've grown up, finally. And are now at rest?
Anyways great post leslie. And great pick up.
[> [> [> Posts like
these are why I love this board! -- Cheryl, 16:00:16 05/21/03
Excellent posts all around. I've watched the episode twice now
and am still picking up on subtle bits and pieces. Didn't catch
that it was the two sleeping beauties who later died. And loved
SK's piece about Spike and effulgent!
I haven't had time to read all the posts here, so not sure if
this has come up already, but what exactly did Spike say when
he was dreaming? I thought it sounded something like "I'm
drowning in shoes." :-)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Posts like these are why I love this board! -- leslie, 16:12:24
Possibly all those shoes that Buffy is feeling the lack of, hence
the planned trip to the mall.
[> [> [> [> Drowning
in footwear -- dub ;o), 18:06:28 05/21/03 Wed
[> [> [> One [tiny]
quibble... -- dub ;o), 18:17:54 05/21/03 Wed
I mentioned this in chat last night and at least one other person
agreed with me [thanks, Ran!]--I believe that Anya died fighting
with Andrew, i.e. by his side, rather than for him,
i.e. to save his life.
I watched that scene and the ending a few times last night. It
appears that Andrew saved himself from the fella he was fighting
with. Anya was actually no where near him when she was practically
cleaved in two, from behind. That's part of the irony of the whole
thing...she didn't see it coming, it was instantaneous, she dropped
where she stood, and Xander couldn't even see her corpse lying
there amongst the others. It was a completely senseless death,
as deaths so often are.
Then the beauty part...Xander asks Andrew what happened to Anya
as they're leaving the bus. Andrew at first answers honestly,
that he doesn't know, he didn't see...and then we see him pause
for a moment and come to a decision. At that point he tells Xander
that Anya died to save his life. It almost makes me cry again
to write about it like that. Andrew, the previously completely
self-centered, non-empathetic, oblivious geek deliberately
lies to Xander for no purpose other than to make him feel that
his ex-fiance didn't die in vain. Andrew does something good,
something nice, for someone else.
Damn, I love Joss Whedon!
[> [> [> [> Ah,
and yet... -- Tchaikovsky, 18:42:27 05/21/03 Wed
...he's still telling his story of what happened, not the real
life event. Andrew's decision was lovely, but he is still casting
himself as a narrator of Anya's story. He's still 'Storyteller'.
Old habits die hard, hey?
Incidentally, not at all meaning to argue that he didn't do a
beautiful thing, just that there are layers going on.
[> [> [> [> [>
I didn't see that, but it's so true -- dub ;o), 19:00:38
If there's any difference it's only in the fact that Andrew took
the time to decide to tell the story this way. In the past it's
seemed almost automatic for him to adapt reality to fit his fantasies...he
does it instantaneously.
The impression I get of the conversation with Xander is that Andrew
is slightly in shock and caught up with his own issues, as usual,
wondering why he's still alive, and the truth pops out of him
instead of a fabrication. Then he consciously realizes that a
fabrication would be kinder than the truth. I don't think that
has been his motivation before so we are in agreement there!
[> [> [> [> He's
still a storyteller -- lunasea, 19:18:25 05/21/03 Wed
This time he uses his power for good.
[> [> [> [> [>
Um...thanks...and I'd just like to say... -- dub, 19:33:26
I thought your Jung/Campbell colouring book analogy was right
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Thanks right back at ya -- lunasea, 19:41:36 05/21/03
Sometimes it is hard to put these things into words.
[> [> [> [> Good
catch... -- sk, 19:54:41 05/21/03 Wed
I think Anya's death seeming so pointless...just bugged me, so
I keep trying to remember it with more grandeur.
She did save Andrew by the way - right before. Two vamps came
at them, she pushed him back and took them. Then there was more
fighting. Then the bringer slashed her from behind.
Ah...a wicked death, realistic...yes. But would I be horrible
in wishing Anya a more fitting tribute?
[> [> [> [> [>
How legend and myth begins.... -- Rufus, 22:41:02 05/21/03
Anya died in a horrible way and some complained that it was senseless.....but
jeeze isn't all death like that senseless? But enter Andrew...he
is a storyteller...he doesn't let the mundane truth get in the
way, he is able to take what seemed to be senseless and put it
into a palatable context. Anya died a senseless death, but so
did any of the potentials who died. Where the difference is gets
down to Andrew. Before he was telling stories that were irritating
because they were so self-centered...what made his Storytelling
in Chosen easier to take was that instead of total fiction or
twisting a lie (Warren and his killing of Jonathon) to look heroic,
Andrew took the truth and made it more grand, and it wasn't all
about him or living as Gods anymore...it was about willing sacrifice
told from the perspective of someone who participated in the battle
instead of sitting it out from a safe vantage point. Andrew could
have gone on about how heroic he was, instead he wanted to talk
about the person he had come to see as the perfect woman..Anya.
And this time someone thought his words were worth listening to.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Brilliant, Ruf! Totally forgot about the "Storyteller"
connection there, and how Andrew's evolved. -- Rob, 07:50:30
[> "Aliens", "The
Matrix: Reloaded", and "Chosen" -- Finn Mac
Cool, 14:36:52 05/21/03 Wed
When we first saw the Turok-Han army in "Get It Done",
it very much reminded me of "The Two Towers". I even
thought they were orcs for a second. However, the final battle
in "Chosen" reminded me of something else altogether.
"Alien": An alien life form gets aboard a space ship
and starts terrorizing the crew. It seems impervious to all of
their weapons and wipes most of them out, until a final, ardous
confrontation manages to destroy it.
"The Matrix": The freed humans battle against the Agents,
computer programs designed to keep the Matrix running. It is emphasized
how dangerous they are. Morpheus says that everyone who's ever
stood their ground against an Agent has died, and later he's taken
prisoner by a solitary Agent, even though he beat Neo, the "One",
in combat earlier in the film. In the end, Neo ends up in several
standoffs when battling Agent Smith, the lead Agent, and only
manages to destroy him near the end.
"Bring on the Night"/"Showtime": The Turok-Han
is freed and it appears to be a truly enormous menace. Giles calls
it the vampire that other vampires fear. It beats up Buffy, quickly
kills one of the potentials, and manages to break through Willow's
defensive shield. It takes a very grueling battle before Buffy
is able to kill it.
Now, look at the respective sequels:
"Aliens": The surviving member of the original spaceship
and a new crew, equipped with state of the art weapons, land on
the original alien's homeworld to fight and kill thousands of
"The Matrix: Reloaded": Only three Agents appeared in
the original "Matrix", and Smith was the only one to
be destroyed/defeated. In the sequel, there are now about a hundred
clones of Agent Smith, and Neo, now fully tapped into his "One"
powers, defeats them all in battle.
"Chosen": Buffy and the new Slayers battle a horde of
literally a thousand Turok-Han and manage to kick their asses,
much better than they did when just one super vampire was rampaging
"Chosen" illustrated a good action movie gimmick: if
you've got a villain in the first movie that's really powerful
and fear inspiring, and the hero just barely manages to defeat
him, in the sequel, bring back a hundred new copies of the villain
and give the hero new powers to be able to butt-kick an army.
As such, rather than "The Two Towers", "Chosen"
reminded me of "Aliens" and "The Matrix: Reloaded"
for their use of returning villains.
[> [> And Star Wars
-- Jay, 20:38:55 05/21/03 Wed
Don't forget all the Jedi's going to battle in Attack Of The
Clones, compared with all the Slayers taking on an overwhelming
[> Great post, as always.
-- Dariel, 20:26:11 05/21/03 Wed
Especially liked your points about "turning the pawns into
queens," turning the soldiers into slayers. I always had
trouble with the "slayer walks alone" theme, and could
never figure out why the CoW didn't provide the slayers with more
back-up. Guess even the Watchers, and the Shadowmen before them,
were watching too many cowboy movies, enthralled with the "lone
gun" idea. Just knew that the show had to overturn this somehow,
that female empowerment couldn't be about "lone" anything.
About those slayers: Although I know many people hated the Potentials,
I always thought they acted like normal, scared teenage girls
(whose lives were threatened at every turn by some creepy villains/monsters!).
Given a little power, and they didn't hesitate to use it and fight.
They weren't cowards--they just needed some real weapons.
[> Re: Impressions on Chosen,
power, choices, flipping the board (spoilers 7.22) -- anom,
23:33:21 05/21/03 Wed
Really nice one, shadowkat. Too much to respond to, so I'll just
pull out a couple of gems:
"She makes all her pawns queens."
"Spike finally found his glowing moment - he finally became
m-w.com says: "from Latin effulgent-, effulgens, present
participle of effulgEre to shine forth, from ex-
+ fulgEre to shine."
To shine forth. Boy, did he ever.
It's the negativity thread! (spoilers for Touched) -- ponygirl,
13:43:07 05/21/03 Wed
Who'd have thought Angel would be right when he said there was
no third act? In some ways I feel that applies to this season.
So many things were brought up early in the season, and not just
in our wonderful over-analyzing way, but actual plot points that
now seem to have been left behind, filed under red herring, or
in an enormous room called What If. I really don't know what to
do at this point, I didn't dislike the episode, not by a long
shot, but I find that there's something lacking. I think of Becoming
with the magnificent tragedy that had been building all season,
or The Gift where so many disparate elements came together in
perfection. I find that with Chosen I am left with grief but no
I firmly believe in leaving us wanting more, but for me this is
a bit too much. So many questions are left - they don't burn,
but they do ache terribly:
What was the First's plan? Was it simply to raise an army, dominate
the world, and somehow be made flesh? Why then would it not kill
Buffy? What was it going to use Spike for? We came up with many
ideas on the board about what the FE was and why and how it knew
what it knew, but we never got any sort of confirmation. What's
more we don't know what happened to the FE, it may not be able
to be defeated but what happened to it? Here we had a villian
who was literally never defined.
Buffy's plan - I agree with Rob that sharing her power was a wonderful
thematic conclusion and powerfully done. However did she logically
believe that her newly empowered army of thirty could take on
thousands? And they couldn't, what ultimately saved the day was:
The amulet - I knew it was going to do something, but I didn't
think it was going to do everything. Did Buffy know that
it had that much power? Even the potential for that much power?
The only information we had was that it was purifying or cleansing,
some line about it maybe having the ability to close the Hellmouth
would have prepared me a bit more for the massive deus ex machina.
And then there's the arcs:
Xander and Anya's arcs were lost long ago, it's sad but true.
I can live with that but I needed one of those defining character
moments, a chance for the glorified brick-layer to shine once
more in a way that no one else could. As for Anya, I knew in my
gut she was doomed, and I loved her raising of the sword for bunnies
at last. But was this a resolution for her? What did it mean to
her in that moment? Was it important that she finally joined the
fight or was she just along for the ride up until her last moments?
Was the Buffy/Giles rift resolved simply because he liked her
plan? I would have argued that much of Giles' behaviour this year
came out of his very real despair and loss, but I have no idea
what caused this to lift and Giles to revert to form.
Willow had resolution about her fear of loss of control, but was
it only because she was able to tap into a good source of magic?
Did she learn that she can handle the power or that she can handle
only certain kinds of power? Wasn't it supposed to be all connected?
Spike got a fair amount of resolution, and the end of his relationship
with Buffy was lovely, final spark and all. I just wonder why
he said he felt his soul (hadn't he been feeling it early on in
the year) and if we were supposed to see him finally moving past
Buffy and sacrificing himself for a larger cause. Or was he love's
bitch to the end, dying alone, and unloved? I like the idea that
a part of him just wanted to see everything come crashing down,
but mostly I'm just very sad...
And then there's Buffy. I loved the cookie dough analogy and the
idea that Buffy doesn't yet know who she is. But she's been having
trouble connecting to everybody, not just her boyfriends. She
shared her power but did she truly connect? The Scoobie banter
seemed a shadow of the past, the final jokes a little hollow.
I can see the Scoobies walking down that school hallway, each
going off in a different direction. It's growing up, but god it's
There is a certain beauty in having an undefined villian and an
undefined heroine, but this is the end I need some closure dammit!
I wanted to connect once more to our heroine, who's hasn't
shown anyone her heart in far too long. I loved Buffy's final
smile as she contemplates the uncertain future but I know that
she's actually looking into a huge hole. I know it because there's
one in my heart.
Okay, that was maudlin as all get out and terribly negative (you
were warned), but I'm feeling some serious mourning here and it's
not getting any better.
[> Warning spoilers to Btvs
7.22 Chosen in above post!! -- s'kat, 13:47:16 05/21/03
And I'll respond in a minute. Just wanted to clear that up for
the people who haven't seen the finale on the board.
[> Oh ack!! Sorry, sorry
- spoilers for CHOSEN above!! -- ponygirl, losing her mind,
14:00:54 05/21/03 Wed
[> Some concurrence but
less negativity (spoilers for Chosen!) -- Dariel, 14:33:20
I do agree about all of those unresolved plot points this season,
especially about the FE. Although, my biggest gripe is about Willow's
spell--that was mega-mojo, something that shouldn't just be whipped
up over night. Glad there were no fawns involved, but it needed
a lot more build-up and more suspense.
On Buffy, though, I feel rather good, which makes the rest less
important. Although it wasn't perfect, I loved the final scene.
To me, the wide-open space was the perfect setting for Buffy's
(and the Scoobies) wide-open future. The burden of being the Chosen
One is gone; now what she does with her life is up to her. The
important thing is that she has regained what she lost at 15--the
ability to make real choices about her life.
[> Re: Warning: It's the
negativity thread! (spoilers for Touched) -- Simone, 15:00:09
I'm largely satisfied with the finale but still mulling most of
it over so I wanted to touch only on the point that I do completely
agree with you on: the ambiguity surrounding the First's plan.
I was complaining just yesterday about too much ambiguity on the
show and this one was my main sore point. See, my theory is that
TF's plan was to take over Buffy. Her body literally, her being
metaphorically. It makes sense - Buffy's descent into alienation
and power abuse, slowly overtaken by the darkest, coldest, nastiest
bits of her unconscious (aka the First) due to her inability to
truly explore said unconscious, come to terms with her shadow/Other/personal
unconscious (aka Spike), see the potential for good as well as
bad within it and, subsequently, start reconnecting with people.
She's been taking small, superficial steps in the right direction
all season but only intermittently and without really *meaning*
it. She kept going into basements to find Spike but still told
her friends (her conscious - Mind, Spirit & Heart) that it was
just because she needed him in the fight. She kept trying to distance
herself from it all, to make it about abstract duty, about some
impersonal "mission," because, deep down, she still
felt that what/who she was was ultimately WRONG. A killer. Dirty
(that, I think, is what Caleb was meant to represent) and she
was still desperately trying to hide that from her conscious mind.
And the more she did that, the more alone she felt. It wasn't
until "Touched" that her pattern changed in a significant
So, anyway, this is what I'm getting. But I'm well aware that
there's precious little in the text to support this interpretation.
There's Beljoxa's Eye saying that the Slayer is the weakness,
there's Caleb merging with the First, there's mentions made about
the First wanting to become corporeal and needing a "strong"
body to withstand being taken over, etc. None of it is conclusive,
though. And, assuming my interpretation is correct, I just don't
understand why they couldn't have made the First's intentions
more clear. Were they reluctant to make it more explicit that
Buffy, the Hero, was in fact on the verge of being corrupted by
her own power all season? Something else? I have no idea. But
I'm finding it kinda' frustrating.
[> A bit of a rant (spoilers
for "Chosen"; standard negativity warning) -- d'Herblay,
15:23:55 05/21/03 Wed
I too enjoyed "Chosen," but felt there was something
missing: catharsis, or perhaps sublimity. So I'm largely in agreement
with ponygirl. And I'm in agreement with Darby, who asks down
the page somewhere, "Did this strike anyone else as a script
from a very talented writer who barely had watched the shows this
year?" I see the problems ponygirl points out as significant,
but I don't see them as inherent to "Chosen" so much
as arising out of what went before; it is as though "Chosen"
is the cathartic, sublime finale that follows logically and satisfactorily
on a season that was shown to some lucky alternate universe.
To take one example, Giles in "Chosen" was a joy --
"mystical strength of a doily"!; but he was definitely
old skool Giles, not the enigmatic red herring that had been foisted
on us all year. (I'll admit that the whole "Is Giles the
First Evil?" question left me feeling manipulated. Was I
really supposed to believe that a well-mannered Englishman with
a touch of gallantry could live for weeks in a houseful of young
women and never once open a door for someone?) I could
accept Giles as he was in "Chosen" more readily had
the writers not still been instilling doubts about his moral status
up through "Touched," where he mysteriously slashes
the Bringer's throat, and even unto "End of Days," where
his attempts to convince Willow that she shouldn't fear her power
can be seen as an attempt at corruption. Giles was so misused
this season that to see him portrayed correctly seems like a continuity
Similarly, there must exist a season (either in an alternate universe
or just in cjl's heart) in which Anya's decision to stand and
fight is prepared for with suitable groundwork. "Bunnies.
Floppy . . . hoppy . . . bunnies" is my choice for the most
satisfying line of the episode; it would be more satisfying if
she had been given similar lines in previous episodes.
Even the amulet would have come off better had we not just spent
the last two episodes focused on the brand-spanking-new Glaive
(errr . . . older-than-time-itself Scythe), which really didn't
contribute all that much at all to the victory.
I realize that this might come across as criticism of season
7 -- that this might even seem to be bashing. But somewhere
there is an alternate universe d'Herblay who is very happy with
the season he got, and who has been as vocal in his enthusiasms
as I have been reticent in my discontents.
I bet he's insufferable.
[> [> Making that wish...
-- ponygirl, 16:03:42 05/21/03 Wed
Yes, that's it exactly! We had the perfect finale for a season
that never quite was -- came close at times though, CwDP lingers
like a gentle touch. You summed up my troubling "this doesn't
quite fit" feelings very well -- and using proper grammar
and spelling too, cool. I have enjoyed this season, but a large
part of my enjoyment came out of my faith that in the end all
the dots would connect, all the lines intersect. Maybe it was
too much to ask for, but all that Potential -- not wasted, that's
too harsh, but definitely lost somewhere on the road.
[> [> [> Re: Making
that wish... -- aliera, 16:49:08 05/21/03 Wed
would you mind if I quote you in my blog, ponygirl?
[> [> [> [> Cool!
17:18:23 05/21/03 Wed
Quote away! If you want to send/post a link to your blog I'd love
to read it.
[> [> Re: A bit of a
rant (spoilers for "Chosen"; standard negativity warning)
-- mundusmundi, 16:35:50 05/21/03 Wed
Yep, in a way, it was a alternate-universe-type Joss episode.
Usually I find the whole of his stuff greater than the sum of
the end of this cliched sentence. This time, I enjoyed the casual
tossed-off moments much more than what they amounted to. Pardon
the heresy (it's the Cathar in me), but there has always been,
with Lord Whedon, a wee problem with glibness. Oftentimes,
his knack for it offers him an ingenious sense of a shorthand,
making a point in one or two quick lines what it takes the other
writers several scenes to set up laboriously. On the other hand,
it can also come across as callous. The fact is that nearly all
of his written/directed episodes over the last few years ("Restless,"
"The Body," "OMWF") have been ambitious gimmicks
-- brilliantly executed ambitious gimmicks, and wonderful to behold.
But in the comparatively straightforward "The Gift"
and "Chosen," he seems to have forgotten somewhat how
to construct a simple story. It also seems to confirm what is
palpable in his interviews -- that he's bored. Time for a breather,
as he expressed in Salon the other day. He deserves it. I can't
wait to see what he does after getting his second wind.
[> [> [> I'll Joss-bash!
-- d'Herblay, 16:40:14 05/22/03 Thu
You are correct that when it comes to the engineering of storytelling,
Joss is no perfectionist. He's not good with math, or history,
or jotting little notes to himself like "Buffy's birthday
falls on . . . " or "If Xander called Sweet, there might
be repercussions." I'm not sure that he's incapable of constructing
a simple story, though. There are a few recent Joss/Joss episodes
you don't mention: "Lessons" and his two most recent
Angel episodes, "Waiting in the Wings" and "Spin
the Bottle." None of these strike me as being as riddled
with plotholes as "Chosen" or "The Gift";
none of these strike me as particularly remarkable either (with
"Spin the Bottle," I started wondering if Joss's talents
had been surpassed by Rebecca Rand Kirshner's).
[> [> Re: A bit of a
rant (spoilers for "Chosen"; standard negativity warning)
-- fresne, 17:30:08 05/21/03 Wed
Yes, that's it exactly.
Just for the record. I enjoyed season 7. I loved Chosen. I haven't
had a chance to review it, chew it yet. However, just for the
image of two clasped, but burning hands, so evocative of Dante's
poem of the burning heart, I would love it.
For dreams of shoes with their attendant soles, I would chortle.
It was pure Joss and thus funny and exciting and beautiful.
It is not that it did not satisfy me, it was just, yes, the conclusion
to a tighter season.
There was a moment when Kennedy and Willow were talking. It was
tender and I liked Kennedy. Causing me to say, aloud during the
episode, "I wish I'd met this person sooner." Because
after weeks of trying very hard not to utterly loath her character,
and for that matter wishing Caleb would get on with killing off
a few Potentials, it was a bit cognitively dissonant to have them
No wait, I don't want them dead, I want them to have super powers.
[> [> [> Re: A bit
of a rant (spoilers for "Chosen"; standard negativity
warning) -- d'Herblay, 17:46:27 05/21/03 Wed
There was a moment when Kennedy and Willow were talking. It
was tender and I liked Kennedy. Causing me to say, aloud during
the episode, "I wish I'd met this person sooner." Because
after weeks of trying very hard not to utterly loath her character,
and for that matter wishing Caleb would get on with killing off
a few Potentials, it was a bit cognitively dissonant to have
them written likable.
Definitely. Actually, being a contrarian, I liked Kennedy all
the way through season 7 (Iyari Limon's status as a hot brunette
helped -- hot brunettes can pretty much do anything in my book);
the sudden onset of SIT-non-loathing was clearest in my case with
Vi. Suddenly, what with the wirework and her masterful triage
scene with Rona, I was struck by what charisma this character
had, whereas previously I had just thought of her as the non-entity
in the stupid hat.
[> [> [> [> Re:
A bit of a rant (spoilers for "Chosen"; standard negativity
warning) -- Alison, 20:03:48 05/21/03 Wed
I second that..or is that third?..anyway, I came to love the potentials,
even KENNEDY, especially Vi..genius really, isn't it? Make us
hate them, then like them at the last second, and feel guilty
for wanting them dead. Pure Joss. So evil..but in a good way.
[> [> Anya and the Season
that Wasn't -- cjl, 21:09:50 05/21/03 Wed
d'Herblay writes: "Similarly, there must exist a season (either
in an alternate universe or just in cjl's heart) in which Anya's
decision to stand and fight is prepared for with suitable groundwork.
'Bunnies. Floppy...hoppy... bunnies' is my choice for the most
satisfying line of the episode; it would be more satisfying if
she had been given similar lines in previous episodes."
You know, d'Herb, I read your post, especially the paragraph above,
and I actually misted up. (I didn't even come close to doing that
in the episode.) Agree with you on all counts. I wanted that alternate
season, for Giles, for Xander--but especially for Anya. What a
Geez, it's enough to drive a man to fanfic.
[> [> didn't contribute
that much? doesn't that depend on how much you define...(spoilers
for chosen) -- anom, 22:25:24 05/21/03 Wed
". . . the brand-spanking-new Glaive (errr . . . older-than-time-itself
Scythe), which really didn't contribute all that much at all to
..."victory"? True, even though several different Slayers
used it in the battle under the Seal, relatively few übervamps
were slain with it. But the real victory was far wider, as women
all over the world found new strength because of the Scythe (glaive,
whatever) used not as a weapon but as a power source (conduit,
whatever). As Willow said, "We changed the world!" I'd
say that was all that much.
[> [> [> argh! how'd
i do that...i meant "*how* you define"! -- anom,
00:38:03 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> Re: didn't
contribute that much? doesn't that depend on how much you define...(spoilers
for chosen) -- d'Herblay, 15:47:59 05/22/03 Thu
I'm easily convinced that the "scythe" was integral
to Willow's spell; I'm also steadfast in my belief that it was
extraneous to the story. Had Joss written "Chosen"
so that Willow was able to empower all the potentials through
just her own magical strength, or using the power already in Buffy
or Faith, or with some sort of just-discovered mystical doily,
I would have been just as satisfied. As it was, were there a bit
of exposition or a line of dialogue which conveyed that the "scythe"
was necessary to the spell, it did not penetrate my skull. Never
did I say, "They're going to empower all the slayers? They'll
need the 'scythe' for that!" That is what I mean by it not
[> [> [> [> The
contribution of the scythe -- skyMatrix, 16:15:16 05/22/03
Of course the main reason for the scythe is Joss' desire to tie
in with Fray, which I guess can be looked at as "cool"
or "self-indulgent" depending on one's own viewpoint.
"End of Days" associates the scythe with the feminine
overseeing power of the Guardians. Some people (elsewhere mostly)
have indignantly demanded how the rape-like instatement of Slayer
power by the Shadowmen can be wrong yet it's right when Buffy
diffuses this power to young women everywhere. The difference
for me is that she does it through this symbol of feminine power
rather than on the Shadowmens' terms and through their methods.
To me, that is important. Did the Guardian say anything
that would lead us to believe the scythe could be used in such
a way? Not at all. For the sake of the story, should she have?
I wouldn't think so, wouldn't that give the game away? I wouldn't
call it completely logical, but I don't think logic is the foremost
concern. I'm not making a blanket excuse of everything, but I
believe this bit works anyway.
[> A suggestion about Anya
-- Sophist, 16:41:36 05/21/03 Wed
I thought her end was the perfect coda: she died doing something
truly, nobly Selfless.
I agree with your point about Giles. That has bothered me, but
not enough to spoil a good season. I think the rest of your concerns
have been addressed (to my satisfaction, anyway) in other posts
below. Caroline's, in particular, are excellent.
[> "The Charge of the
Malcontent's Brigade" (by 3strikes from BC&S) --
cjl (illegally importing), 11:14:03 05/22/03 Thu
This is a review of "Chosen" by 3strikes, one of the
most eloquent and malcontented posters on the Buffy Cross and
Stake board. His bitterness over S7 is unrivaled--I don't agree
with most of what he says in this review, and I've had to clean
up some of the rabies-infected foam before I could bring it over.
But he makes a number of good points, and his review deserves
serious consideration when evaluating "Chosen" and S7's
place in the overall scheme that was BUFFY.
Here goes. Don't say I didn't warn you!
Of Chosen and Choices...
A Series Finale is a time of great moment, a chance for quiet
reflection and the appreciation of all that's come before...oh,
who am I kidding?
You didn't open this post for some sissy-assed, weak kneed, yellow
bellied, namby pamby retrospective...no! You've come for a great
big slab of raw and brutal honesty, preferably served with some
eye watering red peppers.
Well, let me be honest then. "Chosen" was Crap. And
not your ordinary kind of Crap either... Oh no! Some really, really
*special* Crap. Crap that will stay with the viewer for a long
time, like a stench that just won't go away no matter how hard
you scrub. Where to start? By giving JW his propers of course
(don't worry, that'll be rather short).
As a stand alone (and I mean *utterly* stand alone) with no connection
whatsoever either in continuity or context to what came before,
"Chosen" is actually a decent (read adequate episode):
it's fast paced, action oriented with good special effects, little
or no thinking required, and funny enough in places to counter-balance
some truly horrendous, cringe worthy dialogue. In this context,
I'd give Chosen a 7.5. As a mid-season episode, it would be fine,
if nothing special. Unfortunately, it's neither a mid-season episode,
nor does it exist in a vaccuum.
Here endeth the positive part of the review (until the very end).
At this point, Pollyanna Lemmings should beat a hasty retreat
off the bus, as the Hatchets are about to make an appearance.
Let us now proceed with the proper contextual dissection of Whedon's
final opus in chronological order. I am a somewhat forebearing
fellow. Mind the P's and Q's, tie off loose ends, add some humor,
and I am quite content. If ever there was a time to tie off loose
ends, you'd think a Series Finale would be the time. Not for Jossy
apparently. In his Universe, a series finale is the time to unearth
decomposing storylines, cast some bad mojo on the poor animals,
have them perform a grotesque danse macabre and add as many loose
ends as advertisers will bear....
Yep, you guessed it. I'm talking about B/A. Now correct me if
I'm wrong, but isn't the last time they spoke well nigh 2 years
ago? And didn't "Forever" neatly tie off their story
Also, not to seem picky or anything, but didn't Angel just lose
the woman he *loves*...and his son ? Awfully chipper ain't he,
for someone who's "lost everything"? Chipper... until
Spike's soul is mentioned...then wonders of wonders, Whedon turns
a 240 year-old vampire into a temper tantrum throwing 4 year-old.
So given all this, could there ever be anything less convincing
and stilted than this entire fake dynamic? Well okay, I'll grant
you the really bad puns (split, snort, 'splainy), ear drum busting
metaphors (Kooky Doh!) and laughable dialogue (Dawson, etc...)
run a really close second. But to see S3 B/A being dug out of
its mouldering grave really augured badly for the rest of the
And alas that prediction was soon born out.
Next comes [Dawn]'s return. There were many pointless moments
this season. Too many to count (well no, not really--just too
tedious too count). But in terms of futility, the kidnapping of
Dawn ranks in the top 5. What exactly did the kidnapping tell
us about the Dawnster, except that she has a magic zapper that
appears out of nowhere? The pointless moment is capped by a kick
to the leg (listen closely--Buffy has a wooden peg leg!) and a
really cringe worthy joke by Xander. Pointless...but better than
what comes next...
What happens when parts of a script rely on a really fake dynamic
established in another part? It turns into the same kind of crap.
Since B/A was fake beyond belief, Spike's *jealousy* was equally
as fake. His *angry* declamations, and chewing of the furniture
were as brattish as Angel's earlier devolution. Isn't this the
fellow who got his rocks back in GiD and LTWTM? And to top it
off, Buffy gave us the "Starving Rat finds Cheddar"
look as she handed Spike the amulet, the same look she got when
she first beheld the Scythe. Could be because she found herself
a burro to carry the suicide device...er I mean the "Whatket"?
But worse it gets...when the FE finally makes an appearance to
confront Buffy. Because up to this point, it was possible, with
the generous assistance of Fine Malt Beverages, to ignore the
giant, intellect crushing Plot Holes. Alas the FE just had to
open its Big Yap...and it all came back...
So when the FE's armies have overrun the earth, it will be made
flesh? And this is a bad thing, how ? If the #$%# earth has been
overrun, who gives a flying mongoose if the FE is made flesh ?
Who the hell will be left to care ? Now is the time to ask the
questions that *ME* raised with their idiot plotting:
-- If the FE's plans was to raise armies all along, why didn't
it raise them last year when the highschool was completely abandoned,
and Buffy and the scoobies were imploding?
-- Why did it call attention to itself and its plans by targeting
the Slayer line?
-- Why did it destroy the Watcher's Council?
-- Why was the Slayer line important?
-- What was the weakness in the Slayer line that allowed it to
-- Why the #$%#$ did it dig up the Scythe, the instrument that
brought about the demise of its plans, when Buffy had absolutely
no clue it even existed?
-- Why did it raise only 3 [Turok-Han] in EoD, and 1 in BotN,
when it's obviously a cinch to open up the seal?
-- Why did it get involved with Spike at all ? What were its plans
for Spike (that it proclaimed LOUDLY in FD)?
-- Why did it want "her" spared, and who's "her"?
Mind you, those are only the FE related loose ends...if we bring
up all the others (Pod Giles, Joyce, Xander "seeing everything,"
Dawn), this season will unravel faster than the Lakers against
the Spurs. So having remembered all this, how does the FE compound
(Paraphrase) "You're ALONE...You have 30 GIRLS... can't share
the POWER..."Can you HEAR ME NOW BUFFY? Is this on? Hello?
Is this on? Testing! Testing! Can you HEAR WHAT I'M SAYING? "ALONE...GIRLS...POWER!"
Buffy's lone remaining neuron finally fires and she has the Eureka
moment. Boredom is making 3Strikes weep. Of course, as Willow
noted, latter-day Buffy is not that bright, and her plan would
make Charlton Heston and the NRA proud.
Short interlude, with Whedon making sure he gets as much buck
from his Willow/Kennedy Lesploitation as he did from the blaxploitation
of Wood. But never fear, he manages to find yet a lower place
later on. To be fair, Giles and Anya are pretty good in the scene
where Buffy reveals her plan. Speech... Booooring...it'd be less
boring if the material was fresh and the FE less of an idiot.
Hard to care about a non-threat like the FE...of course we later
learn that the plan is about half baked as Buffy's cookies.
The next segments are Whedon's attempt to pay lip service to the
two ingenious inventions of this season: the profound and deeply
meaningful "Food" 'ship, and the extraordinary, astounding,
mythic, ground-breaking Wennedy. Yes, truly, I can not stress
how much these relationships and these characters have meant to
me. *3Strikes is frothing at the mouth*...Aaarghhh! DIE KENNEDY!
DIE! DIE! DIE! And take "Food" with you!
And now for the single most offensive moment of the episode..."Food"
and the continued attempt by ME and Whedon to transform Faith
into a Hood Rat (no offense to rats everywhere)....get what I'm
sayin' yo? I could try tellin' ya that this segment was da bomb,
but I's gots ta keep it real Dawg! Anyhoo, don't know how the
booty call gave Woodsy cause to question Faith's mad skillz...far
as I'm concerned he's just a playa hata.
Watching Faith as newly written by Whedon is like listening to
*rap* by Vanilla ice. Or watching Bud Bundy of Married with Children
impersonating Grand Master P. Yo! Offensive. Or hilariously bad.
Take your pick. I'm definitely in the offensive camp since this
caps Faith's journey in the Buffyverse. After watching her evolution
on ATS and comparing it to what happened to her over the past
5 episodes, I wish she had never shown up on BTVS. What a freaking
waste. Moving on.
Next, we have the D&D scene which was funny and sweet, and the
cryptic Spuffy scene which was not. I'm thinking "gutless"
for the Spuffy scene, but more on that later.
Short bus trip to hell, and we come to the other good scene: the
Scooby Four. It's good...and bad. Good because it harks back to
the golden years of the show...bad because it showcases how much
potential ME wasted along the way with their focus on extraneous
characters and plotlines.
A little blood, and presto, the seal opens up like a can of tuna.
RING-RING! Joss, it's Peter Jackson...he'd like the Isengard caves
set back! Now to be sure the effects were impressive...but it's
very hard to care about 10 million interchangeable Ubervamps...or
for 30 interchangeable whiners. Kill them all and let the PTBs
sort them out. Let's not forget however, how we got there....first
we had to endure the *empowering* orgasm wave and Buffy's master
plan: share the power, share the cooties...praise the lord and
pass the amunition! Uzis for everyone...especially young children.
Power for everyone...regardless of the consequences.
Let's examine some of those consequences, shall we? With the Bat
Girl as a case study (about 10 years old IMO).
MOM: Honey, did you finish your homework?
BG: Nope. No need to. I had a *conversation* with teach...bitch
won't bother me again. Won't walk straight for a week either.
No tests ...just straight A's.
DAD: OMG! Go to your room!
BG: Do we need to have the *talk* again? [Father cringes.] Hand
over the car keys Daddy-o. And a c-note. Gotta get me some smokes.
Want. Have. Take...Capeesh ?
MOM: You can't do this.
BG (twirling her baton and speaking in Cartman's voice): No you
say? I'll teach you to respect my authori-tay!
Buffy's plan has basically created a entire generation of monsters,
and in the worst case scenario, a self-perpetuating and enduring
menace. Because power as presented by ME is never benign...it
always enhances the worst aspects of the human make up. Greed,
lust, jealousy, etc...Power can only be controlled by training
and self discipline. Something Buffy learned the hard way...and
something that will be denied to most of her victims since the
Watchers, for good and bad, are gone. Look how bad it got for
Buffy even though she had an *exceptional* support system...what
will happen to all those who don't have that support system? S3
Faith might well be a best case scenario.
In any event, to make this happen, Willow goes through another
cringe worthy segment: Oh my goodness! Willow! The Goddess has
stuck a poodle on your head! The horror! The horror! (Somebody
shoot it quick.) And the Slayers are activated. Anything *but*
Cut to the big battle....the entire production budget stolen from
all the other episodes is spent kung fu fighting...wait! what's
that sound? RING-RING! Oh Jooosssy, Last of the Mohicans is calling.
They'd like their soundtrack back. Buffy is stabbed..Buffy is
dying...Spike looks like Liz Taylor...no worries mates! The FE
to the rescue! A little taunting...some tough macho talk, and
Buffy is ready to demonstrate how the Scythe chops better than
Ginsu knives. A few Ubervamps later, and it's time for Spike's
big production. The soul is really there!
Can you imagine if it wasn't? All these times when Buffy was braying:
"But he's got a soul!" Oh, the embarrassment if Lurky
had lied, or Spike had misplaced it! And finally, the culmination
of all the ME gutlessness...another gutless moment. "I love
you...no you don't, blah blah blah"...except of course, that
during the B/A danse macabre, Buffy stated point blank that she
sometimes thought that far ahead. Stopping Angel as he was leaving.
ME and Jossy have so *cleverly* (pardon the sarcasm) muddled the
waters that they've left every possibility open. Every single
possibility. That's not clever or original, that's deceitful and
cowardly. Is Buffy telling the truth or is she trying to comfort
a dying Spike? After the past two seasons, does she even know
what love is and is she mistaken about what she feels ? Does Spike
know she's telling the truth and is he trying to comfort *her*
to make her leaving easier? Or is the melting of his brain confusing
his truth sense so that he doesn't know she's really telling the
truth? Is he calling her bluff of kindness knowing she really
doesn't love him, or is he trying to give her a final gift of
truth by telling her she really doesn't love him ?...
WHO KNOWS AND WHO GIVES A S**T. There's no greater hater of Spike
and Spuffy than me, but at this point, Whedon has done such a
great job of dragging that storyline through the gutter that I'm
beyond relieved when Buffy ditches him so called *love* like yesterday's
garbage and skidaddles up the chimney like a sooty santa. Unlike
Angel I'm not getting any younger.
Cut back to what happened earlier...a daring band of limp raviolis
escapes through the chimney and into the waiting arms of the civilians...call
me crazy, but ME stopped making Ubevamps like they used to: Giles
and Wood dispatch their Ubies like Roseanne scarfing down Bonbons,
poor Anya (who has another great scene with Andrew) molests those
poor Ubies like they were evil fluffy Bunnies (before being tastelessly
gutted like a carp by a treacherous Bringer), and Dawn introduces
them to the joys of California sunshine. All in all, not very
convincing, after seeing what Ubie the Original did to Buffy.
Continuity, sweet continuity where have you gone.
The Whatket does its business...school starts to crumble...Xander
is looking for Anya...I feel a little sad...but Anya is finally
safe from Whedon's hands and in a better place--in Vengeance Demon
heaven torturing trollish writers who care nothing for plot and
characterization, and who make promises their overlarge asses
Back on the bus, then back to Buffy...running, jumping from building
to building in her stylish boots...SAFE! Time for the curtain
call...one more tasteless "Food" scene with the death
fake out...a semi-emotional scene between Xander and Andrew about
Anya's passing completely negated not 30 seconds later by some
tasteless mall jokes...and Buffy's final legacy: after foisting
her powers and responsibilities on the unsuspecting shoulders
of the innocent, she smiles at the thought that there's a blue
light special calling her name in the next town's Walmart. "No"
you say ? She's thinking about cookie dough? Pfft! You know nothing!
Buffy is sans shoes *wink wink nudge nudge*! To be continued next
year on ATS, in the Buffy movie, or in whatever comic Jossy will
drum up next. Robert Jordan would be proud.
In conclusion, Anya owned the few scenes she got, D&D and cartoon
Angel were funny, Core Four shout out was good...the rest was
pathetic. This finale examplified and magnified the plot problems
that have plagued the show in the latter part of the season, and
provided neither closure nor resolution. But the failure goes
much deeper than that.
3strikes promised a S7 and overall series review, which he warned
would be much of the same, if not worse. I'll keep an eye out
for it. (No, that wasn't a Xander joke.)
[> [> Wow... there's
negativity and then there's this! -- ponygirl, 11:31:10
And that's the version you cleaned up, cjl? Yikes! At the same
time though it was a hoot to read, and I do agree with some of
the points raised - though my agreement is at about 0.02 on the
passion scale compared to 3Strikes' frothing, screaming 11.
[> [> [> Re: Why I
don't visit other boards -- Brian, 12:15:13 05/22/03 Thu
They look but they don't see;
They hear but they don't listen;
They touch but they don't feel;
They inhale but they smell only rot;
They taste but they chew only ashes.
[> [> [> [> Speaking
of which -- d'Herblay, 14:48:03 05/22/03 Thu
Television Without Pity, deconstructed
with Buffy as a test case.
[> [> [> [> [>
I liked that! -- ponygirl, 15:27:17 05/22/03 Thu
There are occasions when I do enjoy TWOP's brand of humour, ie.
when they're re-capping a show I don't like, but generally I find
them an embarassing reminder of the "witty" commentary
that filled the TV room in my university residence 'lo these many
years past. It's snark for the sake of snark. I particularly liked
this bit of the article:
This is only the most recent "Buffy" recap as of
this writing, but many of TWoP's major flaws are on display: Strong
feelings passed off as criticism. Ranting passed off as humor.
Cutesy made-up character names that make no sense unless you've
memorized every prior recap, as well as recaps of tangentially
related shows. And constant reminders that the recapper has friends,
and they're all really cool, and some of them even write for this
awesome website that snarks on TV shows.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Speaking of which -- skyMatrix, 18:42:29 05/22/03
I really appreciated that article when I found it, because I am
intensely bothered by stuff like TWOP, epsecially b/c these guys
are so sure that they're right and you're an idiot, when in truth
they don't come across as particularly intelligent in the first
place. I'm a cynical guy about most things (like almost everything
on TV or movie screens at the moment) but I'll be the first one
to tell you that cynicism is not a substitute for or in some way
superior to intelligence or careful analysis.
So hooray for the AtP brand of negativity (as well as the AtP
positivity, of course)! Sometimes I am shocked that someone didn't
like X or Y, but it's always presented as an opinion, and presented
with ample justification!
[> [> Re: "The Charge
of the Malcontent's Brigade" (by 3strikes from BC&S)
-- shambleau, 13:15:07 05/22/03 Thu
That post reminded me of a guy named David Hines, who used to
write Buffy reviews, along with participating on some boards.
His hate for BtVS got stronger and more vitriolic in the fifth
season, so much so that he gave The Body zero stars.
Not disputing anyone's right to dislike any episode as much as
they please. Still, I find the vehemence of the hate that you
find on some of the boards fascinating. It's a tribute to the
show's power, really, that these embittered ex-lovers stick around
to lament how horrible everything's become.
[> Re: Warning: It's the
negativity thread! (spoilers for Touched) -- Malandanza, 11:22:06
I had many problems with the finale -- although it was also quite
enjoyable in many respects. My first impression was that it felt
like a Jackie Chan movie (although without the spectacular stunts)
right down to the beaten, mortally wounded hero rising to her
feet after being taunted by the bad guy and finding within herself
the power to win. I thoroughly enjoy Jackie Chan movies, but not
for the plot or character development -- they are pure escape
that only works if you don't think too hard about them. The problem
with Buffy is that I'm used to thinking about the eps, so all
these plot devices, plot holes and breaks in continuity are unsettling.
First, Angel, Spike and the Amulet:
"The amulet - I knew it was going to do something, but
I didn't think it was going to do everything. Did Buffy know that
it had that much power? Even the potential for that much power?
The only information we had was that it was purifying or cleansing,
some line about it maybe having the ability to close the Hellmouth
would have prepared me a bit more for the massive deus ex machina."
I didn't buy Angel just leaving abruptly when Buffy brushed him
off. This is the Champion of LA? Just not believable to me. Next,
the Scoobies didn't seem to bother trying to figure out what it
was for -- they just dropped it around Spike's neck and hoped
for the best. This was an amulet Angel said came from a source
that was not even remotely reliable. I do wonder if the senior
partners from W&H were hoping Angel would wear it, though -- maybe
they thought closing the Hellmouth was a fair trade for getting
rid of Angel. That the amulet did everything was also a
bit disconcerting. Why were Buffy and the Potentials even there?
What was the point of Willow's spell? Why did Anya have to die?
Yeah, they didn't know the amulet would save the day, but that's
because they didn't bother to find out. Finally, Spike's death
scene came across as rather comical to me -- he's Samson in the
temple -- sort of -- if Samson had been a lighthouse rather than
the hirsute warrior he's usually portrayed as.
"As for Anya, I knew in my gut she was doomed, and I loved
her raising of the sword for bunnies at last. But was this a resolution
for her? What did it mean to her in that moment? Was it important
that she finally joined the fight or was she just along for the
ride up until her last moments?"
With Willow, Spike, Anya and Andrew, I think we saw only one satisfactory
resolution. Andrew's. Spike got to be Doyle -- instant redemption,
but that's dissatisfying to me. Willow never addressed murdering
Warren and Anya's journey was dropped after Selfless. It really
did feel as though she was "just along for the ride"
to me. ME did such a fine job with a minor character (Andrew)
-- why didn't they do something for the main characters?
And while I'm talking about Anya, why in the world were Andrew
and Anya off by themselves? I don't get the defense plan vs. the
ubervamps. The Scoobies want to keep the ubervamps from making
it to the sewers. Ok, why not have everyone wait at the seal and
kill them as they try to get out? And all that talk this season
and this episode about Andrew summoning demons -- why didn't they
have him summon a couple to help fight? It would have been way
more believable to see Andrew and Anya fighting with supernatural
assistance rather than poking Ubervamps and Harbingers with swords.
Or how about leaving a Potential with them?
Then Buffy's plan -- open the Hellmouth (which appeared to be
actually geographically beneath Sunnydale rather than a connecting
dimension since Sunnydale caved in when Spike went supenova),
march in with a bunch of Potentials and an amulet that does who
knows what, then wait for Willow to cast the spell (which she
doesn't know will work) make every Potential into a slayer.
Couldn't Willow have done the spell first? Not as dramatic, but
I prefer intelligent to dramatic but mind bogglingly stupid.
I guess we learned why everyone (even the demons) left Sunnydale
-- so when the writers destroyed the town, Buffy and her friends
wouldn't be responsible for creating a mass grave.
I can believe that a mortally wounded hero can get back up and
fight. It's cliche. I've seen it over and over. But dash up to
the roof, leap from rooftop to rooftop, overtake a bus fleeing
the scene of an impending disaster, catch it, leap on to it, hold
on until it clears the city limits, then hop off and chat with
her friends as though her injury were nothing worse than a scratch?
It strains my credulity a bit.
Anya's death would have been more satisfying to me had Xander
refused to go to the bus, staying to find her body and remaining
with her while the world collapsed.
As the episode came to an end, I was left wondering at the shifts
in behavior of the characters and the lack of a resolution. The
episode felt more like a pilot, where the characters are poorly
defined (as the writers try to get a handle on who they are and
the actors try to get a handle on who they're supposed to be)
and the future is uncertain. It bodes well for a spin-off. They
practically said they needed to reform the WC so that the Scoobies
could guide the new slayers through the rigors of life in the
Buffyverse. Perhaps the new slayers could serve briefly, a two
year conscription rather than a life sentence.
the Post-NearApocalypse World be like? -- WickedBuffy (speculating,
never read Fray), 13:47:01 05/21/03 Wed
Now that all Potentials are full-powered Slayers, female, everywhere,
can you imagine the ramifications in the world - the change in
balance that would probably occur?
And without anyone to guide them (at least until each and everyone
is found by the Scoobies), how some of that power might possibly
not be so positive?
Though I'm not sure how many Slayers there would be now - any
idea? hundreds? thousands? seven?
[> yeah, i've been wondering
about that -- anom, 22:12:59 05/21/03 Wed
Shuddering at the thought of baby Slayers going through the terrible
twos...well, if they busted through the folding gate & fell down
the stairs, at least they'd heal quick.
Wondering what would happen in cultures where women are severely
repressed--imagine if a Slayer had been called in Afghanistan
when the Taliban were in power!
On the other hand, imagine an abusive mother suddenly having Slayer
The sports world would be set on its ear (Anneke who?).
How would women who didn't become Slayers feel about being
How would men whose self-esteem depended on being stronger than
women feel? What about the ones who thought they were all sensitive
& supportive...but suddenly found they felt threatened by a different
kind of strong woman?
On the other hand, what wouldn't change? The number of
women in government? How much difference would...what? one girl
or woman in every million?...make overall?
Forget the 1,000 fanfics launched by "what happened after
Buffy & Spike faced each other across the basement?" These
are the fanfics I want to read!
[> [> EXACTLY!! The ripple
effect would shake the world. -- WickedIfIHadABrainI'dWriteAnEssayOnIt,
22:21:54 05/21/03 Wed
[> [> Joss- Answers Please
(Casting Spoilers for AtS) -- Wizard, 00:51:32 05/22/03
Perhaps, like Buffy, he doesn't think that far ahead. But I doubt
it. With any luck, some of this will be played out in AtS- remember
how we all thought Justine was a Potential last season (even before
the terms 'Potential' or the earlier SiT were used)? What if she
was, and was called. What if she came after Angel or Wes?
As for the rest... the Buffyverse is hardly closed, even without
AtS. There is the possibility of Ripper, which would have to deal
with this on some level. There are novels and comic books. And,
of course, there is fanfic. We may eventually be Jossed (proven
wrong the genius that is Joss) in some of what we write by AtS,
Fray, or maybe a movie (TV or otherwise), but the important thing
is that we think.
It all depends on how many Potentials there were in the world,
and which age range were they Called. The speech implied youth,
and the montage of Potentials bore that out. What if there are
women in their 80's that were Called? There was a girl who couldn't
have been older than 12, that we saw. What if there were even
younger girls Called? What about Potentials who weren't born yet-
were they Called? the way Willow was talking, there were a lot
more Potentials who were Called than the ones in Sunnydale or
the ones that we saw. The key to the effect is the number. The
more Slayers, the more change.
As for Baby Slayers, I wouldn't worry too much. Buffy has grown
more powerful than she was in S1- a baby Slayer would be stronger,
faster, etc., but not to a noticeable degree. As she grows up,
The abusive mother/Slayer scenario is truly frightening. The power
of the Slayer can be used however the Slayer sees fit- Faith proved
The sports world would be set on its ear? Oh, my, yes.
There will be women that can outdo the men- by a vast margin.
Slayers in repressive societies? Picture the girl stopping her
father from hitting her. Multiply that by, oh, say, 100. That
is what we can hopefully look forward to.
There will be a number of women who will be upset at not being
Called, for sure- especially if some of their family and close
friends were Called. Some may feel relieved when they find out
what the job means- the forces of evil will go absolutely nuts.
I would'nt be surprised if the Order of Taraka, and other mystical
bounty hunters, get called out. I can't wait to see how W&H will
Will men feel threatened? Yes, many of them will, for all the
reasons stated above. Others may just be impressed and worshipful,
but some will be scared shitless. A twist on the situation, which
would tie into the abusive mother scenario, is that some of these
men have good reason to be afraid.
JM will be on AtS next year as a regular. ASH and AH are slated
to make guest appearances. SMG might- but probably not next year.
ED- it depends on how long her new series lasts. Let's hope these
questions will be answered when the Sunnydale crew rolls into
L.A. next year!
[> [> [> Great post!
And I really hope Buffyverse extends to LA next season. --
WickedBuffy, 09:04:18 05/22/03 Thu
I agree - the number of Slayers would affect how much of a difference
(or at what rate) the effects would be. And we have no idea what
It would be interesting to see it leak into Angels world, though.
else been feeling weepy all day? Missing BtVS -- graylady,
13:57:33 05/21/03 Wed
[> Re: Has everyone else
been feeling weepy all day? Missing BtVS (Spoilers for chosen)
-- Pyro, 17:44:26 05/21/03 Wed
Yes! I can't get Amanda and Anya out of my head! Not so worried
bout Spike, he cannot be gone for good, maybe it's just my own
denial. I hope they do some kind of "After the storm"
thing, even written in books, my mind is racing so i'm sorry if
this doesn't make TOO much sense.
[> Call me red-eyed ...
spoilers, Chosen -- band camp girl, 20:51:41 05/21/03 Wed
I keep thinking about Spike's sacrifice and how he laughed at
the end, and about his nobility and heroism. And I was saddened
at how, once again, the Scoobies just seemed to blow off his contribution.
Notice how when they get out of the school bus and see the crater
and Giles asks what caused it. Buffy says Spike did it and no
one says a damn thing! It's like, oh well.
Other things that made me weepy:
*Anya... poor Anya, whose fear of bunnies gave her strength in
the end. ... Anya, a former vengeance demon who got payback for
women scorned, died when girls throughout the world were coming
into their power as slayers. That touched me.
*Amanda, my inner geek.
*The montage of girls getting their slayer power.
There were lots of things that made me laugh, too, but this is
just the "weepy" post. God, what a wonderful finale
to an exceptional series.
[> [> Re: Call me red-eyed,
spoilers Chosen: Spike's value -- rowena, 08:54:18 05/22/03
I agree. The Scoobies never validated or valued Spike's contributions
to the fight against evil. The only one who did was Buffy.
Vs. Scoobies Finale Spoilers -- Hauptman, 14:19:04 05/21/03
Um, I haven't noticed this in any threads, but is it me, or should
an army of Uber-Vamps like the one, ONE singular, Buffy had so
much trouble killing earlier in the season...shouldn't the dozen
or so that got to the main floor of the school have been able
to evicerate Giles, Wood, Anya, Andrew, Xander and Dawn without
stopping? One of those things beat Buffy down twice. Well, one
and half times and Anya is killing them? Even Wood killing one
is a stretch in my opinion.
Over-all, loved the witty banter, especially Faith: "We're
going again. You're going to learn so respect." Gold. I was
so glad there wasn't a prolonged Dawson moment with B/S when she
got back. The interactions were crisper, faster. Not perfect,
but so much better than the wimpering stares that comprised the
majority of the season.
[> Re: Uber-Vamps Vs. Scoobies
Finale Spoilers -- Dochawk, 15:23:07 05/21/03 Wed
I think (and maybe I am retconning for Joss here but) that the
reason the army wasn't released before was that they weren't ready
yet and therefore weren't up to their full power. Or they are
like the Orcs they obviously were patterned after, stronger Urak-Hai,
were much more dangerous for the men of the West in LotR, less
strong other Orcs made up the bulk of the army. Another explanation
could be that the new slayers knew much more about how to fight
them then they did before (but that wouldn't explain Anya being
able to take one on). But even in End of Days they looked much
more vulnerable. But, we really didn't get a great explanation.
Not unusual that we have to fill in the gaps in a 42 minute story.
[> [> The real question
is....... -- Sophist, 16:16:45 05/21/03 Wed
Why was the SG so worried that the Ubers would get out? It
was broad friggin daylight outside!
[> [> [> Re: The real
question is....... -- Indri, who's making an intercontinental
move, 16:28:24 05/21/03 Wed
Why was the SG so worried that the Ubers would get out? It
was broad friggin daylight outside!
They mention a couple of times that they're blocking off the Ubie's
access to the sewers, in which they could survive and spread.
[> [> [> [> Re:
The real question is....... -- Dochawk, 16:53:25 05/21/03
I was wondering about Angel as 2nd line of defense. What could
Angel and a few demon fighters do??? The second line of defense
should have been, Riley can you send a few black hawk helicopters
and blow the top off the hellmouth so its all in sunshine?
[> [> [> [> [>
Forgive me but I think the show has stated Riley is a moron
22:35:29 05/21/03 Wed
Riley and the Initiative is a group of people who have no idea
what the heck they are doing. They however swagger around like
John Wayne in a manner comically similar to Jack Burton in Big
Trouble in Little China.
They'd probably nuke Sunnydale and thus open the Hellmouth ending
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Notice that with all their demon-equipment, none of Rileys
group showed for this one. -- WickedBuffy, 22:43:44 05/21/03
[> [> [> [> [>
[> In Defense of Riley -- Wizard, 16:52:15 05/22/03
After the events of Primeval, and in early S5, it was made clear
that Sunnydale and the Hellmouth were to be left to the Slayer.
The only reason Riley came back in AYW is because the demon they
were tracking went to the Hellmouth, and it needed to be exterminated,
and Buffy needed to know about it so it could be made her priority
no. 1, which it was.
I'm sure that the ex-Initiative were paying some attention to
what was going on, but, like Angel, they believed Buffy could
handle it. And unless she asked for help, they were going to stay
out of it, unless she clearly lost. Given her track record, it's
a reasonable strategy. And besides- the Initiative is a world-wide
thing. They hunt demons all over the planet. In other words, the
job they do is what Buffy would be doing if the Hellmouth wasn't
occupying her, and what Faith would have been doing if she didn't
go to jail. Some slack can and should be cut for them.
I don't know why Buffy didn't ask them for help, because I think
they have much more of a clue about demon fighting now. Maybe
she wanted them available to help do the second front thing, and
we just didn't see Buffy contact them. Or maybe she has many of
the same concerns the people on the board do. I do wish Joss would
have mentioned this, but oh well.
[> [> Geek nit-pick (spoilers
LOTR) -- Shiraz, 10:18:33 05/22/03 Thu
Erm, In "The Two Towers" Saruman created the Uruk-Hai
from the weaker Orks and Goblin Men, creating a race that was
smarter and stronger than both, and able to move about in sunlight.
(now wondering how I ever managed to get a girlfriend)
[> I think these were new
Ubervamps vs. a very old Ubervamp -- Charlemagne,
22:37:56 05/21/03 Wed
These Ubervamps were no doubt cultivated from Sunnydale's population
(no wonder the town was deserted) and surounding areas while the
other Ubervamp was in my opinion a very old Ubervamp, quite possibly
thousands of years old
Its like the Master and Kakistos vs. Spike and Angel vs. Newbies
out of the ground
[> maybe i'm retconning
here, but... -- anom, spackle in hand, 23:13:11 05/21/03
...is it possible the Scythe drew the power it sent out to all
the world's Potentials from the übervamps? That could account
for their being weaker & also fits in with all the "Slayer
power is rooted in darkness" stuff from earlier in this & other
seasons. Maybe it even weakened Caleb, accounting for Buffy's
ability to fight him effectively (& even for Angel's being able
to knock him out long enough for his conversation w/Buffy!) so
soon after he was strengthened by merging w/the FE. Yeah--that's
it! The Scythe draws power from evil but transmutes it into good...which
is also why Willow didn't go evil again! How's that?
Hey, Hauptman--good to see you again! One of the silver linings
of the series' ending is that it's bringing back some old friends
to the board!
[> [> BRAVA, ANOM!!!!!
BRILLIANT!!! -- Rob, 08:00:35 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> thanks, rob!
but the really brilliant part is that this was all an attempt
to keep sophist around! -- anom, 11:02:56 05/22/03 Thu
See, I just made up that evil-to-good-transmuting Scythe on the
basis of no evidence at all! C'mon, Sophist, are you gonna
let me get away with that? I mean, I like my own idea at least
as much as Rob does, but I didn't even rewatch the last 2 episodes
to find something--anything--to back up my wild speculations!
And that kind of thing goes on here all the time! (Now
that statement there's plenty of evidence for!) So you
see, you can't just leave us here to get away with it! Even when,
as here, it's done for an ulterior motive--a positive ulterior
motive, that is--yes, for this most noble of motivations....
OK, nah...now I'm retconning my own post....
For a higher purpose, of course!
[> [> Re: maybe i'm retconning
here, but... -- Dochawk, 14:42:40 05/22/03 Thu
I've been thinking about why Willow had to wait for the pots to
be in the Hellmouth and why she had to do the spell over the hellmouth.
If Slayer power is demon energy filtered through a spell, then
Willow had to be close enough to the source of the energy to transform
it. she had to suck it out of the hellmouth itself (otherwise
why not slayerize all of them first because obviously the spell
itself works over a distance since all the other slayers got energized
too) and she needed to channel that power. So maybe its a greater
analogy to LotR than we even thought, that Willow drains the hellmouth
energy, thus drains the power of the Uruk-Hai - whoops I mean
Turok-Han (boy it even sounds Orcish).
[> [> [> you mean
there really is evidence? -- anom, 15:49:41 05/22/03 Thu
Supporting, I know...not conclusive. But still--hey, I might be
right! Between this & the flattery from Rob & frisby, I'm starting
to feel brilliant again, after a brief waning--y'know...double
posts...not so brilliant.
[> [> Re: maybe i'm retconning
here, but... -- Hauptman, 14:42:57 05/22/03 Thu
Hi, Anom. Nice to be back. Had to crawl out from under the rock
for the end of it all.
Patriarchy (spoiler Chosen) -- lunasea, 15:46:50 05/21/03
Don't know where exactly to stick this. It pertains to various
threads out there. We think of Patriarchy as males dominating
females, but in a Patriarchy, males dominate males as well. Giles
was under the thumb of the Watcher's Council and didn't exactly
know how to break free. He was trained so that he would be their
good little cog. Before they blew up, it is established that he
is still working with the Council. When they go boom, he was lost.
He didn't know how to act. It wasn't until Buffy was being irrational
about Spike that he had a clear course of action again.
He still was imprissioned by his training though. He didn't know
how to think outside the box. He wasn't quite as rigid as the
Council. His flexibility was what made him and Buffy stronger.
However, he just adapted what he was trained to do. Buffy went
completely outside the box when it came to the solution in Chosen.
I think this freed Giles and the change is remarkable.
I think the exchange between Giles and Buffy is more than just
them reconnecting. It gives Giles a new perspective and hope that
he didn't have before. Buffy really showed him that the rules
don't need to be followed and that following them is hurting them.
Buffy empowered all the women and Giles, too. Giles wants to be
outside the box, but doesn't think it will get the job done. Buffy
shows him this isn't so.
Giles has always admired Buffy because she is what he isn't. There
is a deep mutual respect between these two. It was painful to
see it gone, but it is wonderful that this was re-established,
even if a bit quickly.
Now if Ripper would just get off the ground.
[> Re: Giles and Patriarchy
(spoiler Chosen) -- Rina, 16:30:26 05/21/03 Wed
THANK YOU! This is exactly what I've been trying to say for the
past several months. Everyone kept expressing bafflement at Giles'
behavior, but you explained it beautifully.
[> Wonderful. -- sassette,
17:53:32 05/21/03 Wed
Yeah, an oft-forgetten fact about patriarchy is that it actually
means "rule of the fathers," not "rule of men."
Under patriarchy, the "sons" are just as oppressed as
Great thoughts on how Giles was in fact a victim of patriarchy
even as he was a part of it. I think that's even doubly true for
[> [> Re: Wonderful.
-- mucifer, 19:40:11 05/21/03 Wed
Yet Giles is more complex than that. After all he did have his
rebelious youth and he's always encouraged Buffy to think for
herself. I guess that ties in well with the last episode, too.
Lots of yummy
continuity goodness (spoilers for "End of Days", "Chosen",
& Angel season 5) -- Lampbane,
16:41:36 05/21/03 Wed
Forgive me if any of this has been addressed already - there are
a lot of posts to go through and I'm not too good at catching
up. I loved the finale, partly because it seemed to tie up so
many things that have irked me for a while, or at least it referenced
things from before, and I'm a continuity freak...
In regards to what Giles said about the Hellmouth at the end,
about there being another one in Cleveland - I believe this was
the first solid confirmation we've ever had that there is more
than ONE Hellmouth. Other things that have supported this theory:
Giles' comment in "The Wish" about Sunnydale being on
A Hellmouth (instead of referring to it as THE Hellmouth like
most of the characters do); the fact that Slayers are called in
places far from California (when it seems unlikely that all of
them would be able to reach Sunnydale at all); the fact that all
the bad stuff that happened in Sunnydale happened in the past
hundred years or so (and the Slayers were of course around a lot
longer). I think the implication is that there are many Hellmouths,
but only one is active at a time.
This certainly would explain why nothing bad happens at the other
Hellmouths even though there is no Slayer to guard them. And the
fact that there is one in Cleveland is also interesting - since
that's where the alternate Buffy was in "The Wish".
What I think Anya did in that episode was switch the active Hellmouth,
so that when Buffy was called she would gravitate to Cleveland.
But the switch would have to be recent in that world, since the
Master, Angel, and Giles all ended up in Sunnydale anyway. Sunnydale
not being the active Hellmouth in that world is supported by the
fact that the town had no Slayer and yet the worst thing to happen
was the Master, when we all know that our universe Buffy has stopped
the apocalypse on a number of occasions.
In regards to Fray - maybe Sunnydale was meant to be the active
Hellmouth for another 200 years, which is why demons and Slayers
have been forgotten? Sorry if I'm just throwing things out here,
I haven't read all of Fray yet.
Also in the lines of continuity goodness was last week's episode
"End of Days" in which it was implied that the First
was the last pure demon on Earth. We were previously told that
demons used to control this world (numerous times, in fact), but
were either driven out or destroyed (I distinctly remember a panel
in Fray #3 depicting this), those that remained had to merge with
human beings to survive (Anya referred to them as tainted hybrids).
A lot of these creatures (notably vampires) stay out of the sunlight,
which of course is one of the things that makes this world inhabitable
by humans, in that it gives life through warmth and protects us
from the creatures of the night (so to speak). Maybe I'm wrong,
but I don't remember ever seeing the First in any of its incarnations
in the daylight. Only at night or in various basements talking
to Spike. This suggests a possible vulnerability to the light
My boyfriend was confused because he didn't think they actually
destroyed the First, just sealed it away when the Hellmouth was
destroyed. I definitely think it was destroyed, in that when the
amulet was activated, it transformed a dark place where the First
(as a demon) should have been safe into yet another place of sunlight,
it "conquered" that territory and made it like the human
So the Buffyverse has been dramatically altered - no more pure
demons, no active Hellmouth, and lots of Slayers to clean up the
leftovers - no wonder demons are completely forgotten about by
the time of Fray.
I am also of the faction that believe Spike will appear on Angel
as a human. Having two vampires with a soul seems redundant and
annoying, but mostly it has to do with Angel and the First. The
First tried to get Angel to kill himself, presumably because Angel
was a threat. But Angel played no part in the battle because Spike
was the champion. Remember in back when Angel was human for a
day ("I Will Remember You"), he chose to become a vampire
again because he was supposed to stand at Buffy's side in the
big battle. Which considering how "Buffy" ended, I seriously
doubt will happen now. Her story is over. So maybe everyone has
been wrong all along about these prophesies being about Angel
(as some have said on these boards since Spike showed up with
a soul). Maybe everyone (Wesley, The First, even the Oracles maybe)
read "vampire with a soul" somewhere and just assumed
it was Angel. So yes, maybe Spike is going to "Shanshu"
It'll certainly make for some interesting episodes of Angel.
[> My own theory about Hellmouths
-- Finn Mac Cool, 17:50:20 05/21/03 Wed
Hellmouths were, originally, theoretical concepts. People knew
there could be such a weakening in the barrier between worlds,
but it took a while before one of them was actually found/proved
to exist. In fact, in "Welcome to the Hellmouth", the
impression is given that Giles had to do a bit of research to
determine that Sunnydale was, in fact, on a Hellmouth. It's fully
possible that Giles was the first member of the Watchers' Council
to realize that there was a Hellmouth in southern California,
and that this spawned interest in Hellmouth research, leading
to the one in Cleveland being found (though some people have quoted
Giles as saying the Cleveland one was smaller).
There are a couple more points of yours I want to address:
1) There's no reason why potential slayers shouldn't be from all
around the world. Evil things may congregate around the Hellmouth,
but they exist elsewhere, too (ever since the beginning of the
show, LA has been known to have vampires, too, and "Angel"
expanded on that; there's also Kendra in Jamaica, or Lurky in
Africa). As such, while you might be more likely to find a potential
in Sunnydale (mystical convergence, and all), there's nothing
to say they HAVE to be there.
2) The reason why all the mystical activity in Sunnydale seems
to be from the last century is because the town was only founded
in 1899. Before then, there wasn't real anyone around to document
the supernatural occurances.
[> [> Re: My own theory
about Hellmouths -- Lampbane, 18:04:18 05/21/03 Wed
I never really thought that the Slayer needed to be near the Hellmouth,
except for all those pesky apocalypses (apocalypsi?) that keep
happening in Sunnydale, which made me think that it might be more
important for the Slayer to be near the Hellmouth, leaving the
rest of the vampires and demons to the other forces for good on
the planet (who we've also seen, especially on Angel).
And about the founding of Sunnydale - true that the town was only
founded then, but even isolated occurances have their way of getting
into mystical books in the Buffyverse. ;)
[> [> [> Re: My own
theory about Hellmouths -- April, 20:50:17 05/21/03 Wed
It seems to be implied in the show that more than one hellmouth
can exist at a time. During "The Wish", Giles tells
the Cleveland watcher-man that Sunnydale is on a hellmouth. In
addition, unless the Cleveland hellmouth was giving off evil energies
prior to its "conception" (since opening really isn't
the proper word), I don't see how the watchers would have found
it (though I suppose they probably had seers, but that's a thin
explanation). That leads the viewer (being me) to wonder whether
Buffy and co., being more conscious of how often the world is
in peril, never worry about apocalypses in some far off land.
Like Brazil. If there were an apocalypse in Brazil, would they
even know; it's all said and done and I'd still rather like to
see an episode where Giles finds a prophecy and the scoobies have
to go fight evil in Brazil. But I digress; Having only one hellmouth
at a time makes more sense than having multiple ones, but the
show seems to intimate otherwise...
[> [> [> [> Powers
interference? -- Laura, 23:50:56 05/21/03 Wed
Ever considered that maybe the PTB can prod things so that Whitehats
are near or know of major demon activity? If anyone in Sunnydale
ran into demons during normal activities as someone like Xander
the death tole in that little town would be higher than Everest.
The Powers aren't know for major interference but what about more
subtle stuff that changes things in the long term.
[> I like it -- Rook,
18:46:04 05/21/03 Wed
Your theory about "The Wish" that is. One of the continuity
things people bring up about The Wish is that the Library isn't
destroyed and there's no Hydra-monster thingy...which contradicts
what we saw in PG.
So if Anya Switched the "Active" Hellmouth, then whatever
power was sealing in the master probably deactivated and freed
him, hence no earthquake and no monster. It would also help explain
his depression...since he was suddenly free, but unable to complete
his plan of bringing hell to earth, since this Hellmouth was now
thread (Spoilers through 7.22, AtS S4 a bit; long) -- Maura,
16:19:14 05/22/03 Thu
I tried posting this yesterday and it doesn't appear to have gone
through. Trying again. Sorry, if it's a repost.
This is my first post on this board, though actually I'm a long
time lurker. Typically, I find it more comfortable just to sit
back and listen to the conversation then to get into the inherent
stress of putting my own voice out there, but with the end of
the series, I feel prompted to speak.
I've really enjoyed this board and am, of course, a big fan of
BtVS, all of which I want to point out up front because this post
is going to be pretty negative. But I've decided to let my first
post be a rather critical one because I just feel impelled to
put my feelings on Chosen out there. The last ep of BtVS is naturally
very emotional for us fans, and it's deeply disturbed me, and
I want to try to articulate why.
Disclaimer: I haven't read or have just skimmed briefly a lot
of the posts that have been made about Chosen, so if I bring up
stuff that's already been chewed over to death, apologies in advance.
To put it bluntly, I think Chosen may be my least favorite BtVS
episode of all time.
This isn't to say that there wasn't a lot of terrific stuff in
it, as many of your posts have expressed so well. I'll just say
in brief that I loved almost all of the character development
stuff. I thought it ranged from okay to brilliant, with an emphasis
on the brilliant. In fact, the way the various characters played
off each other was like a return to the heyday of the series.
It felt far more natural than most of S7, and several times I
laughed uproariously. (And as a side-note, I loved the Sunnydale
sign falling down at the end; it was a nice tribute to Spike in
memory of his entrance in School Hard.)
What bothered me--what viscerally disturbs me--is plot and theme-based.
Let me outline some issues in hopefully a somewhat coherent way:
1. Buffy's plan, as I understand it, is this: have Willow cast
a spell that will give slayer powers to all the potentials so
that they can really be an army to fight the Uber-Vamps. Am I
missing something, or is that it?
(It wasn't *supposed* to hinge on the amulet, was it? My understanding
of this is that Buffy was hoping it would be useful but didn't
really know it if would work or what it would do if it did.)
If I have "the plan" down right, I don't see how it
can be "brilliant," as Giles says; it's suicidal. There
is no way I can conceive of that 30 odd slayers could defeat hundreds
of thousands of Uber-Vamps (or hundreds of thousands of Bringers
or maybe even of ordinary people). There was something about "holding
a line," which suggests the only a few Uber-Vamps could get
by at a time, but even if they had done what seems to me the more
logical version of this plan and lured them up the seal where
they could take them out one by one, how could they conceivably
defeat *all* of them before just dropping from sheer exhaustion?
They are just too outnumbered. This is where I lose my suspension
of disbelief. It just can't cope.
This is a problem with the whole "war" motif of S7,
not really the fault of Chosen, though I was hoping that we'd
get some sort of twist at the end that would acknowledge the unworkability
of this model. Didn't happen.
(The UVs have also suffered acutely from what someone termed,
"the Borg effect": being transformed from an enemy so
fearsome that one of them almost killed Buffy to an enemy so trivial
that even the ordinary humans stand a good chance of taking out
a few. But this is a comparatively minor quibble.)
2. Now, Buffy's plan does not, in the end, save the day. Spike
does. This could have worked within the context of the Buffyverse
if it had been explicitly acknowledged that Buffy's plan was a
ridiculous failure to come to terms with the problem. But this
If it had happened, we would be left the message that our empowered
slayer hero couldn't cut it and had to be rescued by her guy.
We weren't left with this message, and yet, this is, in fact,
what happened--and what had to happen, since Buffy's plan *could
not* succeed. How would you even write a success story for that
plan? How many hours/days would it take to wipe out all those
UVs, even if all the slayers never tired and none of them ever
3. So we're left with an unworkable plan that is pretty much presented
as, well, "brilliant." It doesn't work, and the world
gets saved by circumstances that are really pretty incidental
to Buffy. Yet the message of the story seems to be that Buffy's
heroism has saved the day. This, to me, feels forced, and it might
serve as a transition from plot to theme problems. I feel like
I'm being told to revere someone for something I shouldn't be
revering her for. I find myself revolting, which bugs me because
I do like Buffy, and I do revere her overall for the seven years
of faithful service.
4. The crux of my problem with Chosen might be described this
way: I feel like I'm being told to respect as right decisions
that I feel are wrong: both practically and morally. On a practical
level, Buffy's "war" idea is an example of this.
On a more moral level, I have huge problems with the activation
of all the slayers as such.
Let me pause to make some acknowledgments about my own moral sensibilities:
I tend to focus much more on balance (yin-yang) than on the good
triumphing over evil. In an ultimate, cosmic sense, such a triumph
is an idea it's very hard for me to wrap my mind around (sounds
like Jasmine's Brave New World to me). The demons = evil concept
of BtVS has always been a hard one for me. But I've generally
been able to deal with it because it operated as a fairly simply
5. Which, as I understand it, seemed to be: Demons, etc., represent
problems that teens and young adults (and everyone) have to face.
Buffy represents the "slayer" in all of us (especially
teen girls but really all of us) who has to get out there and
deal with those problems because that's how life is.
Caught up in this allegory is the question of being alone vs.
having outside support. Buffy is famously "alone" as
the slayer yet also famously unwilling to bow to that traditional
aloneness, drawing much strength from her friends, often strength
she needs to succeed.
Activating all the slayers shifts this alone/not alone balance.
Suddenly, slayers are much less alone. "Problems" are
much more something to be collectively solved. This is okay as
a goal for dealing with life. But from a narrative perspective,
it seems to undermine one of the great strengths of the show,
which is the acknowledgment that we are often ultimately alone
with our problems. It hurts and it's hard, and that's what life
is like sometimes. The message now seems to be that it's not so
hard and it's going to hurt a lot less, and that shift in emphasis
seems to take away a lot of the power of a core concept: that
Buffy is a figure we can identify with not so much when times
are good, but when times *are bad*, when do feel alone and like
the weight of the world is on our shoulders. Maybe that's why
the series is ending: because that identification is over?
6. Note: I don't want Buffy to be eternally miserable or die (again)
before 25. But I do feel that if she ceases to be that role model
for getting through the hard(est) times, she ceases to be symbolically
the "slayer" she was throughout most of the show. And
if that happens, she should really cease to be the/a slayer. (My
personal vote for an S7 ending would have been for Buffy to lose
the slayer power altogether, get a chance at a normal life, and
face the *challenge* of living a normal life.)
7. As it is, Buffy has been given the best of both worlds. She's
has all her old slayer power but only a fraction of old slayer
responsibility. Now this seems profoundly and distressingly out
of keeping with all I know about life. When are we ever able to
have power without a balancing level of responsibility? When can
we ever let go of responsibility without letting go of power?
One might say, Buffy does have less power now because she's has
to share it with other, equal slayers. Okay. That's true to an
extent, but in literal terms, she still has the "slayer"
power she always did without the same problems: world not on her
shoulders, not necessarily having to die young, etc. It's not
balanced, and it's not realistic.
8. And speaking of balance, where does the power given to all
the slayers come from? In her (as usual) eloquent post, Shadowkat
suggests that the message is that Buffy shares her power with
the other girls, a vindication the "female" power that
is represented by sharing, cooperation, etc. I don't doubt this
is exactly the message ME was going for; it's perfectly in keeping
with the themes of BtVS since S1.
But Buffy doesn't share her power. If she and Faith did share
out the slayer power, they would end up a fraction as strong as
they were (as individuals); they don't.
Or, echoing the end of S4, all the slayers might form a more synergistic
unit in which the slayer power plus the human power of all the
girls together would be greater than the sum of its parts and
they would all be connected as a single unit. There does seem
to be some sense of connection to something greater. But it doesn't
appear to run very deep: when one slayer dies or is hurt, the
others don't appear physically affected, hurt, or even aware unless
they see it. They don't seem to fight as a single unit either,
just as different people in an army, as they were trained.
In fact, what we see happen is simply that all the potentials
become independent slayers, like Buffy and Faith. The power is
not shared; it is multiplied by the number of new slayers.
This is a huge amount of new power being "activated."
Again, where does it come from? Not Buffy, not Faith. Not Willow,
who is only momentarily drained by the activation spell: there's
no sign she's given up any power. As far as we're given an explanation
within the episode, the power appears to be generated out of nothing.
This is in direct violation to canonical rule set up in Get It
Done that magic is rooted in the laws of physics and obeys laws
like conservation of matter and energy. (It would, by the same
token, be in violation of our experience of how the world works
according the laws of physics.)
9. So let's say the canon isn't violated and the power did come
from somewhere. Where? The original slayer power came from a demon's
soul, according to the Shadow Men. Are more demons being desouled
then? Is "desouling" a demon a good thing? I've never
been sure. We've been told over and over that the slayer power
is rooted in darkness, yet the power Willow contacts appears emphatically
light. Were the Shadow Men lying in everything they said about
the slayer? Is the whole rooted-in-darkness thing a hoax? If so,
then a) we deserved some commentary to that effect and b) it destroys
a really neat theme about the nature of power as dangerous and
tending toward corruption: a very valid theme.
But maybe they weren't lying. Maybe Buffy and Faith's power is
rooted in darkness, but the power Willow contacted isn't. Then
are all the other slayers of a different order? If so, then why
do they all feel the spell work as if they were on equal footing?
And if the power is light, where did it come from? Were a bunch
of good critters stripped of their souls? Is this a good thing?
Or maybe Willow contacted a dark power and transformed it into
light. Problems: we have never seen Willow do this before; indeed,
she seems to tend toward contacting dark powers, plus she's sitting
on top of the Hellmouth. Also, to me anyway, this seems like another
violation of the balance: it would be like the yin-yang being
turned into a big, white full moon. Isn't it valuable to have
both sides of things somehow represented? Hasn't BtVS flourished
by showing how "dark" things periodically pop up to
the help the good guys? Or to put it in Andrew-ese: I feel like
the Light Side is clouding everything.
10. What I see going on is a huge tampering with the forces of
the Buffyverse with no hint of any consequences. This seems to
me to be a very problematic message about the nature of power
and the responsibility incurred in making world-changing decisions.
It also flies in the face of many of the greatest moments in the
show: Ex. Restless, when the Scoobies almost got killed by the
First Slayer for taking the risk of combining their powers. Ex.
The Gift: Buffy got out of the conundrum of saving Dawn vs. saving
the world but only by sacrificing herself. Ex. Bringing Buffy
back from the dead: created a demon, pushed Willow toward the
"dark side," and certainly screwed up Buffy's existence.
Things in Chosen that do not count as consequences of the slayer
Spike's death: a consequence of Spike's choice, not the Buffy-Willow
Anyone else's death: a consequence of the "war," not
the slayer activation.
The destruction of Sunnydale (a good thing): consequence of Spike's
Willow being tired for a few minutes: not exactly a balanced payment
for activating a world of slayers.
Of course, there might be consequences that aren't immediately
apparent. It would be neat if AtS took up that issue, though it
probably won't for cross-series continuity reasons. As for BtVS,
at this point, if something hasn't been shown to me, I'm assuming
I'm not supposed to imagine it's there.
One final point:
11. Why I think the slayer activation fails on a symbolic level.
I'm guessing that the message is that now that we've had the role
model of Buffy--the hard work and sacrifices of Buffy--all girls
can be empowered to be slayers in their own lives. Am I missing
the point again?
If this is it, the problem is that that's always been the message
of BtVS, from ep. 1. If the message had been, "She's special
and you're not, and you need her to save you, and if you wait
seven years, you might get to be special too," people wouldn't
have watched. Buffy has always represented all of us. I don't
see how multiplying the number of slayers changes that message.
If anything, it confuses it. Instead of having one or two women
standing for the slayer in all of us, we now have hundreds or
thousands of Chosen (a few billion not chosen), the message seeming
to be, "Now, we can each individually be chosen," except
that most people still aren't. This almost seems to suggest that
now, everyone isn't symbolically a slayer. Only the "chosen"
are. (I admit, this last bit is a tenuous argument. Chock it up
to a digressive train of thought.)
In conclusion, my problems in brief:
--lack of consequences
--damage to certain central metaphors of the show.
I could quibble about other things, but they'd be trivial and
a lot of them have been ably addressed in posts already. I could
also spend a fair amount of time praising certain individual scenes,
but that, too, has been ably done by others.
Maybe I really am misinterpreting something crucial in Chosen.
Please let me know. I'd like to like this episode more. And I've
only seen it once, so I probably am missing a lot of details at
Well, to (try to) end on an upbeat note: I know most of you feel
that Chosen was a stunning and moving close to the series (or
at least "good.") I'm happy for you. I wish I was one
of you. I adore BtVS on the whole; I think it's in the running
for best TV series of all time. AtS is just getting better and
better, and I'm very much looking forward to S5.
[> It went through . . .
-- d'Herblay, 16:44:05 05/22/03 Thu
. . . and fell into the archives through the mindless workings
of Voy's evil machinery. It, and its responses, is currently here.
[> [> Thanks! and thanks
to those who responded (NT) -- Maura, 20:48:27 05/22/03
[> Re: another negativity
thread (Spoilers through 7.22, AtS S4 a bit; long) -- Ray,
02:28:14 05/23/03 Fri
I agree with a lot of your points. It seems like sharing the power
is unfair to all the girls who had nothing to do with the Hellmouth
battle. They're now saddled with responsibility they may not want
(Buffy should've remembered how hard it is to be a teen slayer).
Also, showing all those girls suddenly strong seems to give the
impression that without mystical intervention they'd be helpless
Am I the
only one who thought 'Chosen' was perfect? (spoiler free)
-- Calvin, 19:19:27 05/21/03 Wed
This will probably get buried since there are some thoughtful
and well written posts out there but...
So I get up this morning, and I decided to scan through several
different boards I normally scan through (Bronze Beta, Buffistas)
and even some I don't (Television without Pity). On the one hand
I am really, really suprised at the *overall* negative reaction
to this episode. Yes, there are many people who liked this ep,
but it seems to me that there are more that didn't. On the other
hand, I don't think that ANY final would please most fans. I'm
not saying that people don't have the right to be displeased.
I just think that peoples expectations have risen to the extent
that to actually meet those expectations would prove impossible.
I know this has been talked about ad naseum, but I think it's
interesting to see how my reaction has differed so much from other
reactions. It really is like we were watching a different show.
I had to rewatch the episode just to see things I missed because
of all the times I kept saying, "Oh WOW!" I literally
cannot imagine how Joss Whedon could have done it better. I know
that a lot of people have posted (not really here) various lists
of things that they would have done better (things like, 'Angel
and Buffy should have had a long conversation to say everything
that they wanted to say', that type of thing). I look at most
of these and laugh, because it goes right back to what Whedon
has said time and time again: give them what they need, not what
they want. If the fans had written it, it not only would have
been 97 hours long, it would have been *really* boring. True,
there were a lot of things that were left unanswered. I love that.
If he had tied everything up, people would have complained that
everything was too neat.
I think I really do get why people seem to have had problems with
"Chosen". I just don't agree. In fact, I think its perfect.
ps - Just in case I stop lurking (no more negative threads for
this happy camper, thank you very much), I want to thank everyone
who posts here, even those with whom I completely disgree. It's
made it a great show even more so. Oh, and Rob, here are you pom-poms
[> Re: Am I the only one
who thought 'Chosen' was perfect? (spoiler free) -- Eryn,
19:36:42 05/21/03 Wed
I agree, Calvin. Nothing in life is perfect, but this was a near-perfect
end to a near-perfect show. I, too, can't imagine what Whedon
could have done to make it more fulfilling. I like things left
a little loose, but it did give me some closure on my beloved
Scoobies. I was sad to see Anya go, but I'm glad she went out
fighting. I didn't mind that some old favourites died and some
newer characters made it, because this show has always embraced
the new as well as the old. The only thing that bored me a little
was the B/A thing at the beginning, but I can see why it was there
and I have no real complaints. That's just a personal reaction.
Willow answered the age-old question, "Are you a good witch
or a bad witch?" Faith got a little stability while Buffy
learned sometimes it's good to have things up in the air. Spike
was truly redeemed. And that scene between the four original Scoobies
in the hallway . . . . Fantastic.
And for that beautiful "every girl the slayer" montage,
it's now one of my favourite episodes.
Bravo, Joss Whedon!
[> [> Sorry! Mega spoilers
for Chosen above!!!!!! -- Eryn, 19:38:24 05/21/03 Wed
[> [> Re: Am I the only
one who thought 'Chosen' was perfect? (spoiler free) -- Rina,
09:15:06 05/22/03 Thu
Calvin and Eryn said it all for me. "Chosen" is not
perfect. It's not even the best BUFFY episode or finale. But it
was more than satisfying to me. And I've only been watching BUFFY
for four months (thanks to the FX Channel, I've seen most of the
entire series through reruns).
[> I adored it to itty bitty
bits and pieces. -- Rob, 20:05:05 05/21/03 Wed
I never in a million years thought I would love it so much. Even
I was sure that I'd get nitpicky about the last episode ever,
just because there's so many expectations riding on it. For what
it's worth, I thought it was the perfect conclusion for one of
the best TV series ever, and therefore one of the best finales
ever. It was tightly written, brilliantly directed and acted,
and fulfilled all my expectations, both dramatically and character-wise.
Most reviews were positive as well, if that helps you feel better.
And over 75% of voters gave it 5 stars at buffyguide.com, last
time I checked. Sometimes the posters who are negative about the
episode can be more vocal, because they are more passionate and
outspoken about their being disappointed. There's less to say
when you thought something was perfect. Very little criticism,
that's for sure.
I give it a 10. It's not only my favorite season finale on the
show, but has knocked something (not sure what yet!) out of my
top 10 list. I never thought a last episode could be so perfect.
[> [> I've long since
applied Jossian math to my Top 10. -- HonorH, 22:32:00
[> [> [> LOL! Then
my list might be up to 100 in realverse math! -- Rob, 10:31:42
[> "Perfect" was
also the first word that came to my mind to describe it. --
sassette *see glowing post above*, 20:26:36 05/21/03 Wed
[> Calvin You are definitely
not alone . I loved it. -- Artemis, 22:06:56 05/21/03 Wed
I had the same reaction as you. I was all excited after this show,
wanting to read the boards, hoping even somewhat expecting others
to have the same reaction as me. And alas was surprised. Yet I
really don't know why. People over the years as I have watched
Buffy have had such varying reactions to different episodes that
there really was no way that Joss could have pleased even a majority.
The very direction that he took which was to not answer all the
questions is what I thought was the best choice. But for many
they felt that this was a cop out. I wonder how they would have
felt if the answers he gave were not the answers they wanted.
The cool thing about Joss and Buffy is that for each episode you
can come up with at least 2 or 3 if not more perspectives. One
that can aggravate the hell out of you or one that gives you total
bliss. Fortunately for me throughout the years I have always been
able to find the perspective that makes me happy. That is my Choice.
I am just so happy that I have found so many people at this board
that have helped me, through their writings, to always see it.
Thanks for writing this
[> Nope, perfect sounds
just about right... -- Kate, 22:25:19 05/21/03 Wed
Calvin - fantastic post. There is nothing wrong in loving this
finale or thinking it was pretty near-perfect. That was my exact
reaction as the credits aired for the last time and one final
"grr...arg" was heard in closing. There is not a single
thing that I felt was missing from this episode. I too loved the
unanswered questions...because this show has always left parts
unanswered. That's half the reason it is the best show I've ever
watched. I'm left to ponder the questions and decide for myself
just what those answers might be...like life. Joss Whedon gave
me a finale for his masterpiece beyond my wildest expectations.
There was wonderful resolution between so many characters, sweetly
poignant shout-outs to its glorious past and most importantly,
Buffy and her story came full circle. I have never felt more empowered
by this show or proud of the characters on it than I did last
night. I for one am left quite the happy camper.
[> I thought it was the
perfect way to end the series. -- HonorH, 22:30:32 05/21/03
I really did. I loved the theme, and I thought everything was
superbly done. Perhaps it's not the best ep ever, but I can't
imagine a better way to end the series.
I'm also avoiding negativity posts--sorry, guys. I respect you
all, but in this case, I'm all, "Lalala! Not listening!"
Oops. Seem to have caught Rob's pom-poms myself. Here ya go, guy.
[> [> Me too with the
negativity-avoidance. -- Rob, 22:40:29 05/21/03 Wed
I love everybody who posted in the negativity posts, but I just
love the episode so much I can't deal with anyone putting a damper
on my happiness. Because there have been a bunch of times I read
negative posts about an ep and even if I didn't agree completely,
start to think "That poster has a point," etc. I just
can't let that happen for this episode. It was too perfect an
ending for me to let anyone rain on my Slayer pride parade.
[> [> [> Me three.
I'm gonna honor this series, honor the memories -- Random,
23:24:06 05/21/03 Wed
by avoiding the negativity. I think, dammit, that's the least
I can do for a show that I've loved for six and a half years.
[> [> [> [> Four,
here!!! Still sitting in the Quite Happily Satisfied seats
-- LittleBit, 01:16:27 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
Me fifth! I laughed, cried and enjoyed it. What more can you
ask for? -- pellenaka, these positivity chairs are very comfy,
09:52:39 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Me Sixth! I loved Chosen, and I see no reason to sully
the experience. -- Alison, coming into the positive party
a little late, 13:02:39 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> You're right -
maybe not the 'best ever', but still a perfect ending, which is
all we needed. -- Calvin, 11:00:58 05/22/03 Thu
[> I looooved it! (spoken
in funny Andrew-voice) -- grifter, 01:10:23 05/22/03 Thu
[> Two Things -- Wizard,
01:11:23 05/22/03 Thu
There were only two problems I had with Chosen:
1) Xander didn't get to help making preacher julienne,
2) It was the last episode ever.
That's it. The rest, to quote Giles was "Bloody Brilliant!"
And yes, it gets a 10 in my book. Maybe in a month or so, I'll
start a Top 10 thread.
[> After some consideration
I'm going with the Raising Arizona ending -- ponygirl, 12:42:25
This is my dream of the future. Just because it's a dream doesn't
mean it's not true, just because it's about fictional characters
doesn't mean it can't be true either.
In my dream I see our Scoobies going out into the world, finding
young Slayers and teaching them about their power - but leaving
it to them to decide how to use it. Giles leads the way, not as
a Watcher but as an Active Participant, though most of his pupils
could do without the mandatory acoustic guitar jam sessions. Dawn
is at his side, chief researcher and translator, and instructor
in the finer points of hair-pulling. Willow is a teacher too,
helping witches and warlocks to maintain the balance between the
dark and the light, she does however opt to stay with her natural
hair colour. And quietly in the background Xander works away,
making sure the windows get repaired and the debris gets swept
Further into the future I can see Faith fighting the good fight,
hailed as the Saviour of Cleveland, the Warrior of the People.
Even further still, and things get a bit hazier, but I dream of
Willow turning that corner in Istanbul and finding Oz... I know
this is someone else's dream but I'm hoping he won't mind me borrowing
it. I can see them laughing and talking of their adventures, or
rather Willow talking, while Oz listens, always watching her face.
A bit of swirling, artful, dream-mist and I see Xander in a large,
well-constructed house, with an opinionated, strong-willed woman,
and swarm of smart-mouthed children, who all groan at his jokes,
but when pressed will admit that he is the best father in the
world. Lousy at baseball though.
Finally, furthest into the future of them all, years and years
away so the details are hard to make out, I can just make out
Buffy coming home, maybe from a trip to another country or maybe
just a trip the mall, in any case she has shopping bags. I can't
see exactly where this home is located, whether it's in a big
city or a quiet suburb, Utah or Arizona, or perhaps by a crater-shaped
lake that used to be Sunnydale, but I do know the house is filled
with pictures of family and friends, mementos of places visited
and battles won, and a ridiculous amount of shoes. There is someone
waiting there for her - and some of you may see this person differently
than I do, maybe taller and with very different hair - but I'm
pretty sure he's human, and I know he's glad to see her and she
him. It's not a happily ever after, there is much bickering and
eye-rolling and the occasional storming out, but they are both
okay with that because they know that nothing is perfect and nothing
ever really ends. Except this dream, because that's where I choose
to leave them.
So whatever my problems with Chosen, or season 7, I've decided
I'm fine, because this is my ending. And it is perfect.
[> [> *sigh* ponygirl,
I heart you so much! -- Dyna, 13:22:20 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> Oh, ponygirl, that's
perfect! -- dream, 13:55:08 05/22/03 Thu
You sentimental fool, you!
I would only add Tara, Joyce, Anya, Jonathon and Jenny, watching
over them with love.
Oh, and, um, Giles has a romantic interest in a certain administrative
assistant from Cambridge, MA....but I admit that stretches things
[> [> I think you dreamed
them all a pretty nice future, ponygirl. :) -- Kate, 14:34:25
[> [> [> Re: Damn
it. You made me cry. Thanks. -- Brian, 19:20:33 05/22/03
| More May 2003