May 2003 posts
Empowerment, redemption, and a very satisfying
conclusion (very, very long) -- sassette, 19:39:23 05/21/03
First off, I just want to thank all of you for the extremely insightful
and intelligent posts about "Chosen." I used to be a
regular on several BtVS boards, but the air of bitterness and
negativity in S6 and S7 just got to be too much for me and I stopped
finding reading what others had to say about the show fun anymore,
and instead began to find it aggravating. But you all have been
so smartly critical about the show that reading through some of
your posts gave me chills. So, thanks!
I was blown away by "Chosen." Well, maybe that's not
quite right. It didn't blow me away, because it was so clearly,
at least for me, the way the show was meant to end. It didn't
blow me away, because it was not shocking, once I thought about
it. Instead, the episode as a whole gave me the feeling I get
when I hear a song or read a poem that puts into words feelings
that I've had but hadn't even realized I'd had until that moment.
I think what that means is that, for me, "Chosen" ended
the series exactly the way I've thought it should end but never
realized until I saw it.
Now, my view of the finale is no doubt very biased. I'm a pretty
easygoing gal, and the list of things I feel very strongly about
in this world is very short: feminism, gentle childrearing, and
Spike's redemption. (Well, okay, there are more things than that
but, in terms of topics that will get me going for hours, those
are probably the top three.) Joss, in all of his wisdom, hit on
two of them last night, and in ways that really struck a chord
with me. So, I should come out before I even began as an ardent
feminist and a hard-core redemptionista (but not a Spuffy), which
no doubt leads me to a far more positive view of the finale than
a lot of other people had.
I loved, loved, loved that way the Slayer plotline was tied up.
For so long I've seen people argue over whether or not Buffy should
be a "normal girl" at the end of the series. Joss did
us one better; he turned normal girls into Buffy. I thought it
was a very, very powerful and touching move, and that the series
could not have ended in a way that more effectively fulfilled
the feminist premise of the series.
I am shocked and actually very troubled by how negatively many
people are reacting to the activation of all of the potentials.
I've seen endless discussion of how the ending of "Chosen"
was anti-male. This strikes me as both ridiculous and actually
somewhat appalling. I don't see how anyone could have been watching
BtVS for the past seven years and not realized that empowering
women does *not* require disempowering men. Buffy has never emasculated
any of the men on the series, and she has never made any of the
women feel inferior. Instead, over and over again, characters
became better people because of their association with her. Her
power empowered her friends and acquaintances just as her power
activated the Slayers. Because of his association with Buffy,
Xander stopped seeing himself as just the class clown and realized
that he was an important, worthwhile person. Because of his association
with Buffy, Giles stopped seeing himself as just a stuffy old
Watcher and realized that he could think and act and, perhaps
most importantly, feel for himself. Because of his association
with Buffy, Angel stopped seeing himself as a worthless waste
of a body and realized that he could be of far more use to the
world helping the helpless than chasing down rats in the sewers
and brooding over his past misdeeds. Because of his association
with Buffy, Andrew realized that community can be found in doing
good, and not just in doing evil. And, it's been that way for
the female characters, too. Because of her association with Buffy,
Willow stopped seeing herself as a spineless geek and realized
that she too could be empowered. Because of her association with
Buffy, Cordy stopped worrying all the time about what other people
thought of her and began to do what she wanted. Because of her
association with Buffy, Jenny realized that she did not have to
be unthinkingly loyal to her family. And, then those effects were
past on to others. Because of her association with Xander, Anya
not only realized what it meant to be a good person, but actually
wanted to be one. Because of her association with Willow, Tara
realized that she was a person who was beautiful and lovable and
strong. Because of his association with me, my husband is no doubt
a far better person . . . oh, wait, this is about "Buffy."
The point? Real power, the kind of power Buffy has, the kind of
power she gave to the potentials, is not about making other people
feel weak, but about making them feel strong. It's what Buffy
has (almost) always done, and I see no reason to assume that the
newly activated Slayers will do anything differently. I don't
think the result is going to be a bunch of boys suddenly feeling
like victims (geez, has there been a wave of people reading Christina
Hoff Summers on the BtVS boards or something? because, really,
people, like a lot of the hot blond anti-fems out there, she's
not "politically incorrect," she's just incorrect),
but a bunch of girls who are strong enough to bring out the strength
in the people around them. This isn't about the wanton use of
violence, it isn't about girls who are going to start physically
threatening their parents or their classmates, but about girls
who have a destiny and who are connected to others like them and
who have a place in the fate of the world, and who can empower
those around them to seek out the best in themselves, even if
getting to that best is a long and hard and sometimes very dark
process--a process that takes strength to go through.
Perhaps most remarkable is what Buffy did for Spike. When people
talk about Spike being emasculated or losing his balls, I find
it pretty laughable. If going from killing people to helping them
is the result of emasculation, then I am all for ball-busting,
I guess. But, really, Spike said it himself--Buffy didn't unman
him, but saw the man in him. Spike sought to validate his masculine
identity in all of the wrong ways: raping, murdering, fighting.
But, that didn't make him a man; it made him a monster. And, he
learned that through Buffy. He learned through his association
with her (and a lot of operant conditioning) that helping others
is better than killing them. He learned that wanton violence and
unrepentant killing and gleeful rape are the work of the monster,
and that compassion, trust, and intimacy are traits of men. And
that, to me, is anything but emasculating. It is empowering. It
is getting rid of a rigid notion of what it means to be a man,
it is doing away with destructive (and self-destructive) notions
of manhood, and replacing it with something far healthier, larger,
Buffy and Willow did the right thing. They did the unselfish thing.
Buffy gave up the one thing that set her apart, that made her
special. She never saw herself as especially smart or especially
loveable or especially good. As Holden noted in CwDP, Buffy has
both an inferiority complex because she feels she doesn't deserve
her power, and a superiority complex because she feels that her
destiny makes her better. In sharing her power, in giving away
the thing that made her "better," Buffy proved that
she was indeed worthy of it in the first place.
And, I think that Buffy and Willow changed what it means to be
a Slayer. The Shadow Men used dark magic to create their Slayer;
they used violence; they used chains; they used their staff. They
infused the First with the power of a demon, and after that the
power of the Slayer came from darkness. That darkness is in Buffy,
and it is in Faith, and it is where so much of their conflict
comes from. The Slayer always walked the line between light and
dark; her power was from darkness but she used it for good. But,
I think that has changed, now. The new Slayers didn't get their
power from a glowly green demon; they got it from Buffy. Willow
used white magic to activate the Slayers; she used the scythe,
forged by women. Their power comes from a place of light. Perhaps
they will not have the darkness in them that has caused so much
pain for Slayers in the past.
Eradicating darkness. It wasn't a total victory in the end, since
there are still fronts to fight on, but eradicating the dark was
a major theme. In the end, just as the Slayer power might have
been purged of its darkness, Spike too was purged of his darkness.
It wasn't the sunlight, but the power of Spike's soul that defeated
the ubervamps. And, I don't think any other soul would have worked.
Not Buffy's, not Angel's. It had to be Spike's, because his soul
was chosen. He was a testament to the limitations of the power
of the ubervamps. Their evil, their darkness, was not all-encompassing,
because Spike himself fought it and won. He had that darkness
in him, but he made a choice, and that choice was his soul. Love
proved, in the Spike storyline, to be more powerful than evil,
at least when accompanied by frequent, well-time shocks. Evil
proved to be fallible. So of course, in the end, it had to be
Spike who took out the army of vampires. As I think many of us
who have cheered Spike's redemption would agree, one vampire who
chooses to do good means more than legions of vampires who give
into their instincts for evil.
"Chosen" was clearly for us. It was for those of us
who have watched Buffy and admired her and hated her and rooted
for her and questioned her and criticized her and followed her
for seven years. And the message was that everything we love about
her, everything we admire about her, everything we hate about
her, is in us to. It is there for the taking. Maybe it doesn't
mean much to me now, as an adult, but I think of myself at 14,
at 16, at 18, and that message would have meant a lot to me, especially
considering most of the messages coming to me from my television,
coming to me from the movie screen, coming to me from the radio.
"You're Aging Well" is not one of my favorite Dar Williams'
songs, but I have always liked the lyrics:
Why is it that as we grow older and stronger
The road signs point us adrift and make us afraid
Saying "You never can win," "Watch your back,"
"Where's your husband?"
Oh I don't like the signs that the signmakers made.
So I'm going to steal out with my paint and brushes
I'll change the directions, I'll hit every street
It's the Tinseltown scandal, the Robin Hood vandal
She goes out and steals the King's English
And in the morning you wake up and the signs point to you
"I'm so glad that you finally made it here,"
"You thought nobody cared, but I did, I could tell,"
And "This is your year," and "It always starts
And oh, "You're aging well."
To me, those lyrics make me feel the way "Chosen" did.
Buffy and Willow took all of the things that had always been done--by
the Watchers, by the Shadow Men, even by the SG--and turned it
around. They stole the power that those men had wanted to keep
for themselves and turned it loose on girls all over the world.
And Joss took all of the things TV tells us about being a girl--that
you have to be sweet, you have to be skinny, you have to be pretty,
you have to have a boyfriend, you have to be careful, you have
to be afraid, you have to listen to what people tell you to do--and
turned that around, by creating female characters who defined
many of those stereotypes and, finally, in the finale, offering
their strength to the viewer. I could not have asked for more.
[> Oops . . . major major
*spoilers* for "Chosen" above" -- sassette,
20:25:25 05/21/03 Wed
[> Agree...like this post.
-- s'kat, 20:43:53 05/21/03 Wed
[> Very, very nice.
-- Calvin, 20:56:47 05/21/03 Wed
That's just what I was going to say. If, you know, I could actually
write about the show that well. And I was smarter. And coherent
for more than 4 minutes at a time.
[> Hi, sassette--great post!
Welcome to the board! -- cjl (fellow BC&S refugee), 21:01:40
[> Thank you for writing
this. -- Artemis, 21:43:42 05/21/03 Wed
[> What a wonderful post!
-- HonorH, 22:43:24 05/21/03 Wed
And you're completely right, IMHO: the end was about sharing power,
giving it--not about taking it. The elevation of these girls in
no way diminishes men. Witness Giles' reaction to what Buffy suggests:
"It's bloody brilliant!" He represents the old establishment,
the one he was an ill fit for, but was still a part of. The conflict
between him and Buffy this season was all a part of the old vs.
the new. But he saw the genius in Buffy's plan, saw the good it
would do, and cast aside his preconceptions of "This is the
way it's done" in favor of the greater good.
We have a spectacular array of men following Buffy into battle.
Robin Wood, who set aside his vendetta for the greater good and
was ultimately willing to work alongside the being who killed
his mother. Xander, who's never been intimidated by Buffy's strength,
but has flourished alongside her. Andrew, who started out such
a nobody that people couldn't even remember his name, but grew
until he was willing and ready to give up his life for Buffy's
cause. We've already discussed Giles and Spike. The advent of
the new Slayers in no way diminishes these men, just as it doesn't
diminish the women who weren't chosen, like Anya or Dawn. Rather,
it uplifts them, since they're all so willing to see these women
live up to their potential, and would never begrudge them their
[> Actually Buffy did emasculate
a man.... -- Charlemagne,
22:53:06 05/21/03 Wed
But he deserved it.
Men who try and destroy females sense of self-actualization are
setting themselves up for it anyhow
[> Yes. Yes! YES! --
Just George, 23:12:42 05/21/03 Wed
sassette: "Buffy has never emasculated any of the men
on the series, and she has never made any of the women feel inferior.
Instead, over and over again, characters became better people
because of their association with her. Her power empowered her
friends and acquaintances just as her power activated the Slayers.
Because of his association with Buffy, Xander stopped seeing himself
as just the class clown and realized that he was an important,
worthwhile person. Because of his association with Buffy, Giles
stopped seeing himself as just a stuffy old Watcher and realized
that he could think and act and, perhaps most importantly, feel
for himself. Because of his association with Buffy, Angel stopped
seeing himself as a worthless waste of a body and realized that
he could be of far more use to the world helping the helpless
than chasing down rats in the sewers and brooding over his past
misdeeds. Because of his association with Buffy, Andrew realized
that community can be found in doing good, and not just in doing
evil. And, it's been that way for the female characters, too.
Because of her association with Buffy, Willow stopped seeing herself
as a spineless geek and realized that she too could be empowered.
Because of her association with Buffy, Cordy stopped worrying
all the time about what other people thought of her and began
to do what she wanted. Because of her association with Buffy,
Jenny realized that she did not have to be unthinkingly loyal
to her family. And, then those effects were past on to others.
Because of her association with Xander, Anya not only realized
what it meant to be a good person, but actually wanted to be one.
Because of her association with Willow, Tara realized that she
was a person who was beautiful and lovable and strong."
Yes. Yes! YES! Thank you for stating this so clearly. Over the
past 7 years, I've come to think that Buffy's greatest power has
been her effect on others. She is a role model. Her "heroism"
seems to rub off on those around her. Buffy example set the standards
for sacrifice and selflessness on the Scooby's journey. And despite
all of the pain, and betrayal, and doubt that occurred along the
way (or maybe because of it if you want to go all Nietzsche),
Buffy and the Scocobies are greater for having been through their
They began as outcasts and end as heroes.
[> Hey, Sassette! I used
to visit BC&S for your posts! -- Rahael, 23:56:51 05/21/03
And this is a great tribute.
[> I've got maybe a problem...
-- Darby, 05:50:06 05/22/03 Thu
I understand the imagery, but it was a little off the mark for
Buffy has been about empowerment - both female and the males who
accept them empowered - but, beyond the initial off-screen Choosing,
that power has either come from or been developed from within.
Willow and Buffy both have been cautionary tales about receiving
too much power / validation from external sources.
The sharing of the Slayer power with the other Potentials, who
had worked for it and aupposedly chosen to accept it (but how
could they not?) was also a very Buffyesque metaphor, as she accepted
them like equals and they stepped up to be what she expected of
And, y'know, with the established plotline, Joss could have easily
forgotten about the undiscovered Slayers out in the world. But
he didn't, and they were empowered from without, with no understanding
of what was going on, and the message there I find disturbing.
I suspect it was a metaphor for what he hoped the show (after
all, Buffy and Buffy is him) had done in the world, and
I suppose I should give him that presumption.
But it still bothers me.
[> Great post, sassette!
It's great to see you back here again-- it's been too long.
-- OnM, 08:05:03 05/22/03 Thu
Back when I used to visit the BC&S regularly, your posts were
always among the most clickable ones.
I'd be very happy to see you start posting here at ATPo regularly,
and I'm sure the other boarders who've read your commentary before
would emphatically agree.
[> Absolutely! -- mrfh,
08:10:07 05/22/03 Thu
"He learned through his association with her (and a lot of
operant conditioning) that helping others is better than killing
them. He learned that wanton violence and unrepentant killing
and gleeful rape are the work of the monster, and that compassion,
trust, and intimacy are traits of men. And that, to me, is anything
but emasculating. It is empowering. It is getting rid of a rigid
notion of what it means to be a man, it is doing away with destructive
(and self-destructive) notions of manhood, and replacing it with
something far healthier, larger, and sane."
This hit home with me completely. The fact that the show is about
female empowerment never meant that men lost their power....rather,
they were made more powerful by their acceptance of woman's power.
I've been wondering at what age I will decide to show my child
(coming in September) the entire Buffy series. It truly speaks
to what it means to be a woman or a man, and this sums it up perfectly.
Thanks for the fabulous insight. I so rarely post here, and now
that I have more time after finishing grad school, the show is
over! I'm hoping to have more time to discuss Angel next fall
between changings and feedings.
[> Re: Empowerment, redemption,
and a very satisfying conclusion (very, very long) -- Arethusa,
08:21:32 05/22/03 Thu
Darn it, you said what I wanted to say! Very good post, sassette.
To take someone's personal power away, you have to convince them
that they have none, and make them afraid to seek it. The FE was
incorporeal because it was both the outer voices that tells women
that they have no power, and the inner voice that tells women
that they don't need or deserve any. But that's all it was-a voice.
It could only convice people to harm themselves or give up hope.
It couldn't do anything itself.
There is Potential in each of us women. There is power and strength
and courage. We have the Heart to love and share, the Spirit to
understand and create, the Mind to think and grow, the Hands to
build our futures. We cannot let that power be usurped or subjegated.
We form over half of the world's population, yet many of us let
the other half tell us what we can and cannot be or do. Power
can't be taken without our permission.
I too was very very happy with the message of empowerment in "Chosen."
Buffy learned to believe in and trust herself, and that made her
able to teach others to do the same. By sharing power instead
of hoarding it she became stronger and, finally, no longer alone.
She and the thousands of other girls who share in her power are
free to be what they want to be, go where they want to go. And
so are the rest of us, if we believe we can.
[> [> Great interpretation
of the FE. -- sassette, 09:32:22 05/22/03 Thu
It's interesting that, from what we saw, the FE worked by trying
to instill doubt and fear in the female characters, and by trying
to instill anger and hatred in the male characters. The FE was
the voice telling Robin that he had failed his mother--had failed
in his duties as a son and as a man--and had to go out and take
revenge. The FE was the voice telling Spike that he was a killer,
and trying to convince him that a woman who wouldn't let him possess
her was a bitch.
BtVS has, I think, always been about resisting those voices. It
has always held that women do not need to be afraid, either of
others or, more importantly, of their own power. And, it's always
held that men can be men without resorting to conventional and
limiting notions of masculinity, in which they have to harm or
subjegate others in order to feel like real men.
Both BtVS and AtS hold out the message that women do not have
to fear being strong--that that doesn't make them unloveable or
unbearable or unfeminine. And, it is always held that men do not
have to be like their fathers (a strong anti-patriarchal message
if ever their was one), whether those fathers be their actual
fathers (for Xander and Wesley), the CoW, or their sires. I think
the message is that both men and women can break out of the bonds
that keep them trapped within stereotypical ideas of what it means
to be a man or a women. And it's a really cool idea to think that
the FE was playing on that. I hadn't thought of that until you
wrote it, but it makes a lot of sense.
[> [> [> wow, sassette
& arethusa--not sure whose is the KA & whose is the BOOM!
-- anom, 23:59:05 05/22/03 Thu
But this is great--what synergy! I'm copying your posts to keep...maybe
I'll have more to say later.
[> [> Re: Eleanor Roosevelt:
Cousin to the Slayer line? -- PartlyCloudy, 16:02:56 05/22/03
This post about The First put me in mind of her famous quote:
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"
Maybe we could also substitute "inferior" with a bunch
of other things emphasized over the years on BtVS and in this
whole series of posts: self-doubt, hatred, helpless, etc.
Hats off to all in this series above and below; so much goodness
my heart is singing a little song that I'll carry with me the
rest of the day. Thanks, everyone!
[> [> [> Cousin? Maybe
she was a Potential herself! -- Wizard, 17:13:12 05/22/03
[> [> That was breathtaking!
-- WickedBuffy ::getting tired of this name::, 17:52:16 05/22/03
[> I've got a smile on my
face -- ponygirl, 08:28:36 05/22/03 Thu
That was a great tribute to the series!
[> Great post and thank
you! -- Caroline, 08:32:01 05/22/03 Thu
I guess that I would also call myself a redemptionista (what a
great word!) and that's why the end was so satifying for me. In
my view, Buffy, Willow, Anya and Spike were all redeemed. It was
the ending I needed - to know that transformation is possible
and even though there are losses, it does bring a reward, a gift
into all our lives. Buffy gave the world the gift of her redemption
and the redemption that she made possible for others. Because
while the show may have a feminist/empowerment motif, it's not
really the surface feminism of a little blonde chick kicking butt.
It's the feminism for men and women - a feminism which acknowledges
the different aspects of our selves, both male and female, and
values them all. That's why I had no problems with Xander being
the hero at the end of S6 - he saved Willow and the world through
his feelings, his love and compassion. Just cos Xander is a guy
doesn't mean that he doesn't get to express his own femininity.
I think that Joss is ultimately saying that neither men nor women
have to be defined by external projections of feminine and masculine,
that we can define ourselves as we wish.
[> [> Right! -- sassette,
09:17:43 05/22/03 Thu
That is exactly why I've always seen BtVS as a very feminist show.
The "little blonde girl kicking ass" thing, to me, is
not particularly feminist. But, the fact that the show allows
both men and women to explore all parts of themselves--those that
are feminine, those that are masculine, those that are light,
those that are dark--without being made to feel as if they are
somehow not really men or not really women for doing so.
[> [> [> Re: Right!
13:15:36 05/22/03 Thu
thank you so much for your wonderful post that started this thread.
I loved and enjoyed it very much!! I have been lurking on this
board for a very long time now, and posts like yours have always
helped me to understand the show's deeper meaning and messages
so much better. Actually, I even posted here once myself (about
seeing her childhood as heaven).
That is exactly why I've always seen BtVS as a very feminist
show. The "little blonde girl kicking ass" thing, to
me, is not particularly feminist. But, the fact that the show
allows both men and women to explore all parts of themselves--those
that are feminine, those that are masculine, those that are light,
those that are dark--without being made to feel as if they are
somehow not really men or not really women for doing so.
It's a feminist show in that the main character is a girl/woman
who fights and is stronger than you would think by just looking
at her, who stands up against false authority and sends her boyfriend
to hell when he goes 'evil'. But I also agree with Age who used
to post here until some time ago (I so miss his insightful interpretations
of the episodes) who called BtVS a show about humanity. Which
is why in the greater scheme of things gender doesn't really matter,
so to speak. It's about what makes us human, how and why, whether
we are male or female.
I have posted some thoughts on the show and its message in my
livejournal, you find them here
if you are interested (spoilers through End of Days). As
for the Slayer part, I think that statement in Chosen was
not so much about Buffy sharing her power but about clarifying
that this is what being a Slayer really means and has meant all
along: a girl/woman who struggles with the hardships of life,
relationship trouble, family problems etc. She makes mistakes,
she stumbles and falls, more than once she is about to give up
but in the end always gets up again and continues to fight, every
time stronger than before. For a long time she thought she was
the only one having to deal with all this. But now she has realised
that in fact she is not alone, never was and never will be. She
is us and we are her. And I so love this show.:-)))
Thanks again for your wonderful post.
PS: My apologies for any bad and/or clumsy spelling, grammar and
wording (I'm not a native speaker.:-))
[> Beautiful! -- Dyna,
10:10:02 05/22/03 Thu
[> Best I've Read yet on
7.22 -- frisby, 13:41:17 05/22/03 Thu
This is good, the best on 7.22 I've read yet. Thank you sassette
for excellent analysis and insight. And while I'm at it, thank
you Mutant Enemy (cast and crew)! And special thanks to Joss and
-- and James.
A small voice
of gratitude -- Sophist, 19:42:59 05/21/03 Wed
This isn't, necessarily, a farewell. Masq's invitation to "go
back to the beginning" is, well, inviting. I also hope to
continue to participate in Rob's annotation project. Nevertheless,
BtVS - IMHO the greatest show in television history - has now
ended. I hope the discussion will continue, but as old posters
fade away the opportunity for thanks will be lost forever. If
I post this now, I can myself slip silently away without remorse.
The hardest part about writing a thank you letter to so many people
is that I'm bound to forget someone or underplay his/her contributions.
I'll have to take that risk; the cost of failing to thank those
who so richly deserve it would be far higher.
First and foremost, like everyone here, I owe a huge debt to Masq
for creating an extraordinary place for us to indulge our mutual
obsession. She's put in more work than I can imagine and put up
with much that I'd prefer not to (even when I'm the perpetrator).
Her patience and fortitude are equally remarkable.
I also owe special thanks to many others, in no particular order:
To Ete, with whom my disagreements about the show could probably
be counted on one finger. She shares my taste for the dark, the
disturbing, and the bittersweet. She unfailingly posts with humor,
patience, and that charming French accent.
To Rahael, who made me more sensitive to metaphor in S6 than I
ever was in my entire life before. Rah's posts were the single
biggest reason I kept returning to the Board; she has the rare
gift of making profound points in lyrical prose. Her harmonics
are frequently as rich as her themes, leading to digressions which
were a source of delight to me.
To LittleBit, who posts far too rarely, but whose nightly presence
in chat makes the chatroom the emotional center of the Board.
To Malandanza, who never fails to point out the flaws in my posts
nor to allow me to return the favor to his. I'm sure he conceded
more of my points than I did of his. That reflects more on the
nature of our respective personalities than the quality of our
To Darby, who demonstrated remarkable patience in discussing his
profession with an amateur. Darby so intelligently designs his
threads - I like to think of them as his progeny - that they rapidly
occupy all available Board resources. He punctuates them with
new ideas to keep them constantly evolving, making his threads
truly meme-orable. He must be quite a teacher.
To d'Herblay, who responded to my requests regarding the archives
with patience and alacrity. His sense of whimsy never failed to
add a lighter note to the darkest threads.
To Doc, for organizing the LA meet, for keeping us all in line
when it comes to Spike, for being Willow's second greatest defender,
and for personal favors he knows about.
To DeadSoul, whose fanfic made my workdays more, uh ...... interesting.
And kept me sitting very near my desk.
To Rob, whose work in creating the Annotated Buffy site has been
and will be immensely valuable, and whose flair with pompoms is
To Shadowkat, whose quantity of production is matched only by
her quality. I don't know how you manage it s'k, but every week
you gave us insight that added immeasurably to my enjoyment of
To redcat/Resh, a comrade in discussing so many topics well beyond
the confines of the show.
To Ian, aliera, Random and cjl, whose personalities outshine even
their scintillating posts.
To many posters whose every post I read with eager anticipation:
manwitch, Ixchel, Robert, Caroline, ponygirl, KdS, Tchaikovsky,
dream, pilgrim, shambleau, skyMatrix, Finn, Arethusa, fresne,
Dyna, Valheru, deeva, leslie, matching mole, Anne, celticross,
verdantheart, tim, yez, OnM, CW, Just George, mundus, Tyreseus,
yuri, Anneth, alcibiades, Valhalla, Exegy, fidhle, and no doubt
others whom I've embarrassingly omitted.
To everyone who tolerated my digressions onto obscure topics and
my overly forceful expression of opinion.
Each and every one of you will always be a part of me. Someday
I'll turn the corner in Istanbul and there you'll be. I won't
be surprised. Because... you're with me, you know?
[> I'll keep an eye out
for you, my friend. See you in Samarra... -- Random, 20:41:17
"Yon rising Moon that looks for us again --
How oft hereafter will she wax and wane;
How oft hereafter rising look for us
Through this same garden -- and for one in vain."
from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam Edward Fitzgerald
Thank you, Sophist. It's the end of an era, I know. But you see,
one can't spend all this time reading other peoples' thoughts,
chatting with them on topics diverse and fascinating, manic and
profound, without realizing one day, without warning, you've become
accustomed to them. They are real people, with lives and
beliefs and dreams that matter, that somehow skirt your own. So
I'll be looking for you to hang around a while for the same reason
I'm hanging around -- cause this is a place where you belong,
you're accepted...you're wanted. You'll never slip silently away,
cause we'll definitely take notice. But I do raise a glass to
you, my friend. Cause you, like so many others here, have infinitely
enriched my Buffy experience. You're with me too. I'll be looking
"And the night shall be filled with music
And the cares that infest the day
Shall fold their tents, like the Arabs,
And as silently steal away."
-- Longfellow, "The Day Is Done" (Longfellow isn't all
[> [> Ditto...very well
said. My thoughts echo Random's. -- s'kat, 20:53:08 05/21/03
[> Well said, counselor.
Motion granted. -- cjl (saluting, lip trembling with emotion),
20:56:51 05/21/03 Wed
[> small voice? are you
speaking of someone else? -- Jay, 21:17:16 05/21/03 Wed
[> [> LOL -- Sophist,
08:57:50 05/22/03 Thu
My thank-yous come in soft voice, my opinions in loud.
[> [> [> Ahhh. Read
ya. -- Jay, 16:44:37 05/22/03 Thu
[> Re: A small voice of
gratitude -- CW, 21:17:30 05/21/03 Wed
From the prologue to Pushkin's Ruslan and Ludmila:
On the shore by the bay, stands a green oak tree. And on that
oak is a golden chain. And night and day a learned cat walks round
and round along the chain. As it walks to the right it sings a
song, and when it walks to the left it tells a tale.
Day or night you never know what to expect when you get on to
the board. But, sometimes you just have to say it's magic that
people who would never have met otherwise have come to look forward
to spending time reading each others thoughts. My dyslexia and
typing skills mean I really can't keep up with chat. It just goes
by in a blur. But, even here in the slow lane on the board, it's
been a pleasure meeting so many clever folks, and swapping Buffy
info. Hope most of you will join our review discussions this summer,
and will stick around for Angel next fall. Good health to those
who must leave! Good posting and good fellowship to those of us
who will remain!
[> Thanks for the shout-out,
as a newbie I appreciate it! -- skyMatrix, 22:27:24 05/21/03
[> Beautiful, Sophist. Anybody
have a hanky? -- Rob, blubbering on his pom-poms, 22:36:39
[> Oh, Sophist. So I guess
this means no Angel for you? -- deeva, 23:00:45 05/21/03
Thanks for the mention as I truly don't know what you read of
mine as they are usually just a few sentences. ;o) Will you be
at least do very random drive-bys? Just a "hey" is good.
See you in Istanbul.
[> [> Actually, I may.
-- Sophist, 09:13:55 05/22/03 Thu
The changes I've seen discussed on the Board indicate to me that
ME recognizes the problems on AtS and is taking serious steps
to fix them. I'd say I'm not unreasonable and could change my
mind, but you all know better.
[> [> [> It's a tough
decision, isn't it? (WKCS AtV S5) -- dream, 11:56:28 05/22/03
Part of me wants to go cold turkey, part of me wants to cling
to whatever remnants of the Buffyverse are out there. The general
response among the Buffy viewers in my office was, "Spike's
going to Angel? Damnit, am I going to have to watch Angel now?"
I hate to admit it, but that was my feeling as well. Plus, like
the whole workplace drama idea. But I would have to find someone
to seet me up with the tapes each week, and part of me (the part
that isn't distraught over the end of Buffy) kind of wants to
be free of the television grip. Buffy has been a borderline unhealthy
obsession, after all.
[> And just where do you
think you're going, young man? -- LittleBit, 23:53:22 05/21/03
You don't get to slip away quite that easily, Spohist! errr...Sophist!
I agree with everything you said (except maybe one, but blushing
too hard to object).
But as you left one significant (and hardly small) voice off your
list, I shall take it upon myself to pat your back for you. Your
voice will be sorely missed if you do indeed slip silently away.
There are only a few people whose posts I look for when I haven't
the time to read them all, and yours is at the top of that list.
I have time and again been drawn into threads solely because of
your responses in them.
I sincerely hope that you will be enticed into the discussions
of episodes revisited. I, for one, value your opinions and plan
to do my very best to pull you in! [evil grin]
To all who have participated on this Board since it's inception,
to friends and acquaintances, to new voices and old voices now
silent, I offer a toast. To Masq, whose inspiration and perspiration
have made this Board and the ATPoBtVS-AtS sites into the best
Buffy and Angel sites, and to those behind the scenes who help
to keep it going.
Cheers ...no... Buffy!
'Bit [who will be watching around every corner, because we are
[> [> To Masq! --
Darby, with an appropriate beverage (Tab, anyone-?), 11:07:57
[> Istanbul -- Rahael,
23:53:52 05/21/03 Wed
Damn straight, Sophist this better not be a farewell!
I got a little teary when I read this post - wish I could do your
compliments justice but the fact of the matter is I'm ill and
I think, a little delusional. Double dosing two different cold
medications probably wasn't a good idea. I'm a little high as
well. So look over the reply with a forgiving eye.
I know you know that you're one of my very favourite posters,
witty, Sophist-icated, playful, a poster who always makes me want
to contribute and post (and possessed of a depth of knowledge
about a frightningly large number of topics!). There's no discussion
of Buffy that can't be improved by an aside about the 17thC!
I always imagined this board to have an invisible architecture,
a grand, and yet simultaneous cosy aspect, with room after room,
unlimited books - expansive, sprawling, a delight. Thank you for
being such an important architect! But you gotta stick around,
for this is no ordinary city. It needs us, the posters.
Did I mention that I had tea with Ete in Paris last weekend?
[> [> Lucky you!
-- Sophist, 09:37:13 05/22/03 Thu
I envy your ability to flit to Paris. And your ability to have
tea with Ete. And lots of other things about you as well.
[> First Slayer into the
Hellmouth -- Darby, 05:35:13 05/22/03 Thu
I never would have had the Orbs of Nezzla'khan to initiate this
- I worry when folks rattle off their lists at awards shows (who
are they forgetting, and how mortified will they be when they
realize it?), and I don't even know them or the people on their
lists. Eeek, the pressure!
But now that you've stepped off the precipice, I can both reflect
and echo your appreciation without demonstrating my senility.
And I understand the underlying sentiment - it's hard to believe
that the Board will continue on its own inertia. It will evolve
mimetically (hey, you knew I had to slip that in here!) into something...else.
I hope to be here, and I hope to be able to discuss the wide range
of topics, Whedonesque and other, with you.
And if you even find that the weight of paperwork is getting you
down, you'd make a fine teacher. You hear what other people are
saying and respond in terms of what they need - a gift for lawyer
or instructor. And there's a tad less paperwork.
And for all you folks out there - even the ones that Sophist might
have forgotten - um, I agree with what he said. I hope to tell
many of you in person in...wow, a couple of weeks!
- Darby, still kinda in denial.
[> [> Arrgh! I did it
again! -- Darby, 05:37:40 05/22/03 Thu
Memetically!!! It's become a mental tic!
And it's not helping my attitude toward mimes, which wasn't very
good to begin with...
[> [> I feel like I missed
an episode of my favorite show! -- d'Herblay, 07:03:57
And I can't even call up Dochawk for a tape!
And for all you folks out there - even the ones that Sophist
might have forgotten - um, I agree with what he said. I hope
to tell many of you in person in...wow, a couple of weeks!
So, this means you got your birth certificate, right?
[> [> [> Re: I feel
like I missed an episode of my favorite show! -- Darby, 08:57:09
We got Sara's from NYC, thanks to your source. Tomorrow she and
I drive to the two different counties I still need, and at that
point we'll be set. I hope.
[> "It doesn't matter
where you go, 'cos-- there you are." -- OnM, 06:21:27
Back atcha, Sophist-- don't be a stranger. Your posts were faves
of mine also. Best wishes whatever you decide.
[> Dammit! -- ponygirl,
07:11:35 05/22/03 Thu
I just had to get up from my desk and run into the washroom. Something
in my eye, I guess.
You are a lovely person Sophist and a wonderful writer. Thanks
to you and everyone on your list.
[> The gratitude is mine.
-- Arethusa, 07:24:00 05/22/03 Thu
Your responses made me a better poster and, I hope, a better person.
I owe you a huge debt.
[> Thank you very much!
-- KdS, 07:25:37 05/22/03 Thu
[> thanks for the great
words and the great conversations -- tim, 07:40:17 05/22/03
Hopefully, this place will continue. I've learned more here about
philosophy and literary criticism than I ever did in school.
[> Thanks to you, Sophist!
-- dream (sniff), 08:33:53 05/22/03 Thu
[> Please do consider returning
-- Masq, 09:08:24 05/22/03 Thu
'Cause Buffy hasn't ended in our hearts.
But if you do leave permanently, goddess bless.
And thanks so much for sharing yourself with the board.
[> hold on there, sophist!
we're gonna need a lawyer around here -- anom, 09:43:14
Who else will keep us to the straight & narrow, making sure we
support our claims about the show, its characters, & what various
things meant with actual evidence from the episodes or other sources
of canon? I think I agreed w/you most of the time, but you said
it more rationally than I probably would have.
And in that spirit:
"If I post this now, I can myself slip silently away without
This may be true, but the fact that you've posted it doesn't mean
you have to slip away!
Besides, what about our remorse?
[> With posts like this,
it's getting hard to live in DaNile -- Caroline, 09:45:19
Thanks also to you...here's hoping our paths meet again one day...
[> Some William How required
-- Tchaikovsky, 10:16:12 05/22/03 Thu
The year is swiftly waning,
The summer days are past;
And life, brief life, is speeding;
The end is nearing fast.
When I was eight, I joined a church choir, which I was to be in
for ten years, with two services weekly. This kind of commitment,
both in length and density, leaves marks on you. I still remember
very many of the hymns and anthems, and not only their tunes,
but their words as well. I often like them just for their cadence,
not even for their sentiment. But, being a mealncholy (read weird)
child, the verse above was my favourite bit of poetry I found.
It isn't genius, and it isn't really original. But the haunting
little tune and the truism stabbed me right between ribs. Another
thing I liked about it was that the first verse wasn't specifically
Christian- the Christian perspective comes later.
Perhaps the most important thing about the hymn was that it represented
the church itself and its choir. It was coming towards its end.
And every October, when we sang it, I had a growing awareness,
as I grew, of singing about the choir's own ending. It, co-incidentally,
broke down the year I left to go to University, and therefore
will always symbolise my childhood, the loss of growing up, and
the nostalgia of youth in 4 (or, for the Advent Carol Service
8) part harmony.
Now with this board, I feel, to a certain extent, the same way.
Not that it's that close to dying, just that it knows the sense
of its own mortality. And it makes me sad. And so grateful for
everyone's company over this last year or so, and previously in
contributions now in the archives.
Thank you Sophist, and everybody, and to conclude the hymn:
The year is swiftly waning,
The summer days are past;
And life, brief life, is speeding;
The end is nearing fast.
The ever changing seasons
In silence come and go;
But Thou, eternal Father,
No time or change canst know.
O, pour Thy grace upon us,
That we may worthier be,
Each year that passes o'er us,
To dwell in heaven with Thee.
Behold the bending orchards
With bounteous fruit are crowned;
Lord, in our hearts more richly
Let heavenly fruits abound.
O, by each mercy sent us,
And by each grief and pain,
By blessings like the sunshine,
And sorrows like the rain.
Our barren hearts make fruitful
With every goodly grace,
That we Thy Name may hallow,
And see at last Thy face.
[> [> wait, does that
mean... -- anom, 11:48:27 05/22/03 Thu
"Now with this board, I feel, to a certain extent, the same
way. Not that it's that close to dying, just that it knows the
sense of its own mortality."
...the board has shanshu'd?!
As soon as I wrote that, I thought, no, that wouldn't happen till
"Angel" is over...but on 2nd thought, I think it's more
fitting here & now.
[> [> [> Up for discussion
next week: Is Voynak a serial killer? -- TCH, 13:53:34
[> Sophist, I really hope
to still see you here... -- Dyna, 13:18:43 05/22/03 Thu
I can't tell you how much it pleases me to see my name on a list
of people whose posts you've enjoyed. I've wished so often that
I had more time to say the things I've thought about this year!
When I come here with just a short time to read, your name is
one I always look for, because I know what you say will be thoughtful
and interesting. So I do very sincerely hope that you will stick
around, or make cameo appearances from time to time.
I've been an "Angel" watcher since S2, at first more
out of loyalty to "Buffy" than affinity, and though
I enjoy it now in its own right, I've never felt the same urge
to discuss it in depth. I'm hoping that will change, as I go back
over some of the archived discussions here and get myself into
a more Angel-centric frame of mind. It would be great if you were
around to join in a little!
[> Re: A small voice of
gratitude -- aliera, 19:02:18 05/22/03 Thu
Well, since I don't make scintillating posts I don't know quite
how to take that, except to mention I'm cute too.
I have a lot I'd like to say to you Soph; but, I want to say over
the next year or longer, not just here in this thread... and I
find myself suddenly unwilling to compromise on that point. Of
course, I can't promise that anything I say will be relevant to
the thread it's in or won't include poetry and most likely it
will contradict something I said elsewhere. That's been part of
the fun of it.
Somehow I feel that the board has been more than a Buffy discussion
board now for a long time. Buffy is simply the frame we use to
allow us to talk about what really matters. And I and we want
you to be here for it. Don't think we're done talking yet. ;-)
Yet if you come to feel differently I want that for you too. Not
for me you understand, I don't want to lose you. But for you...
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree,
By caves where never sun has shone,
By streams that never find the sea;
Over snow by winter sown,
And through the merry flowers of June,
Over grass and over stone,
And under mountains of the moon.
[> [> Tolkien may not
be a great poet, but that's a favorite of mine. Thanks.. --
Sophist, 20:46:03 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> And at the end
of the book, there's another verse: -- Tchaikovsky, 05:03:49
This is my favourite bit of the poem; which is repeated several
times through the books, with 'eager' in the first book being
replaced by 'weary' in the last:
Still round the corner, there may wait
A new road, or a hidden gate
And though I oft have passed them by
The time will come at last, when I
Will take the hidden paths that run
East of the Moon, West of the Sun
(Chosen spoilers, Angel S5 semi-WKCS spoiler) -- Alison, 19:43:33
This won't be as well worded as I would like but...Anya and Spike
were amazing characters. Throughout the show, I came to feel as
if I knew them. They may have died last night (though Spike's
fate is uncertain) but I know thanks to this site, and my DVD
collection, I can go back and revisit every time they made me
love this show, and them, passionatly. I would like to take a
moment to recognize their sacrifices, and those scenes that were
so well writen and well acted that the character became real to
me. In memory of those fallen in the final battle, I'd like to
share my favorite Anya moments:
- Anya's attempt at hanging out with Xander in GD1
- Anya's seduction of Xander...so cute, and as Xander pointed
out, oddly romantic
- pretty much anything she said in Pangs
- Her speech in The Body- even more touching in hindsight
- Her money dance in ATW
- Selfless- the episode is an entire Anya moment...it showed us
just how amazing a character she really was
- And ofcourse, her speech about loving humanity in EoD
Honestly, theres never been a moment when Spike was on screen
that I didn't love...my list was turning into a list of every
episode he ever appeared in, so I'll just say that I adore Spike..and
I hope that if other people contribute to this list, they can
be more concise and less verbose when talking about him.
Let's take a minute to remember those who died...Spike, Anya..and
[> Oddly, my favorite Anya
moments come from IWMTLY. -- sassette, 21:47:16 05/21/03
It took me a while to warm up to Anya. I was indifferent to her
in S3 and couldn't stand her for most of S4. Then, in S5, she
started growing on me. IWMTLY was the turning point for me; after
that episode, she was my favorite character. I think it was her
skill at insightful analysis that really sold me on her.
Re the Internet: "At first it was confusing. Just the idea
of computers was like, 'Whoa, I'm eleven hundred years old. I
had trouble adjusting to Lutherans.'"
Re Chex Mix: "Look at these tiny grain patties. They're woven.
Those may not be Anya's finest moments, but they are the moments
that made me love her.
[> Best Anya Moment EVER!!!!
-- Mystery, 09:13:49 05/22/03 Thu
From Tough Love - Quotes from Psyche
Shot of Anya watching them, partly hidden behind a display
Anya whirls around to face him.
XANDER: Old saying. "A watched customer never buys."
ANYA: They would if they were patriotic.
Xander and Willow both put down their reading material, look
at Anya, then look at each other.
XANDER: (to Willow) Okay, I'm goin' in. (to Anya) Patriotic?
ANYA: Yes. I've recently come to realize there's more to me than
just being human. (proudly) I'm also an American.
Giles appears, holding a cup of tea.
GILES: Yes, I suppose you are, in a manner of speaking. You were
born here -- your mortal self.
He walks past her.
ANYA: Well, that's right, foreigner. (Giles gives her a look)
So I've been reading a lot about the good ol' us of A (she says
"us" not "U.S."), embracing the extraordinarily
precious ideology that's helped to shape and define it.
ANYA: Capitalism. The free market depends on the profitable exchange
of goods for currency. (Xander and Willow exchange an amused look)
It's a system of symbiotic beauty apparently lost on these old
people. (turns to look back at the customers) Look at 'em. Perusing
the shelves. Undressing the merchandise with their eyeballs (turns
back to the others) all ogle, no cash. It's not just annoying,
Giles comes over to her and peers past her at the customers.
GILES: Appalling. Almost as if they no longer think money can
He walks off.
ANYA: Totally unAmerican. Oh, and you know what else is unAmerican?
WILLOW: You don't say.
ANYA: From what I hear, they don't tip. Now, French old people?
That's *really* the bottom of the barrel, you know? XANDER: Ahn,
how's about we try being a bit less prejudiced, and a bit more
inclusive? Not us, (indicates himself and Willow, then points
to Anya) just you.
ANYA: Fine. I'm gonna make those fogeys buy things.
That whole scene to this day STILL makes me giddy and giggly.
I'm giggling right now!!!
oh and in "Spiral"
ANYA: Ooh! Snacks! The secret to any successful migration.
Anya reaches into her backpack and pulls out a frying pan,
reaches in again.
ANYA: Who's up for some tasty fried meat products?
She holds up a can of SPAM. No one looks interested.
Oh and who can forget her in "Checkpoint"
Anya: WILLOW'S A DEMON?!?!
I'm gonna miss Anya. She was the best character ever. D'Hoffryn
better have given her her demon powers back at the last minute...:-)
[> My favorite Anya moment...
-- Jacki, 12:42:57 05/22/03 Thu
...was definitely in "The Gift". I don't know why I
like it so much, but here goes:
ANYA: And don't frighten me like tha-aah!
She shrieks as she sees something in another box. Xander comes
over to look.
ANYA: God, who, who would put something like that there? Is this
supposed to be some sort of sick joke?
She picks it up. It's a small toy bunny.
ANYA: I mean, things aren't bad enough! (pause) This is an omen.
XANDER: Hey, hey, shh. (rubs her shoulders)
ANYA: No, no, it's an omen. It's a higher power, trying to tell
me through bunnies that we're all gonna die. Oh god.
And then, of course, I always get a chuckle out of:
XANDER: Anya ... you wanna marry me?
Anya stares at him a moment, then slaps him across the face.
[> [> Re: My favorite
Anya moment... -- Chris,
17:41:49 05/22/03 Thu
For me it has to be in OMWF....Anya has just done the rock out
number about bunnies, everyone has finished staring at her like
she has two heads and are about to carry on with more normal (though
still sung in all probability) suggestions when...
ANYA "...Or maybe midgets..."
[> One of my Favorite Anya,
Queen of Capitalism -- WickedBuffy, 18:15:11 05/22/03 Thu
One of my favorite Anya moments:
Christmas chicken feet
from Into the Woods (Season 5)
ANYA: Oh. Who ordered more chickens' feet? The ones we have aren't
moving at all.
XANDER: That's generally what happens when you cut them off the
ANYA: I'm serious. (Opens jar) Maybe we could do a ... holiday
promotion. (Takes out a chicken foot) One free with every purchase!
GILES: Oh, yeah. (nostalgically) Dear holiday memories. Merry
tykes by the fire, enjoying their new Christmas ... chicken feet.
WILLOW: Aw, holding them tight as they fall asleep. Painting their
-- Dirty Frank, 19:51:39 05/21/03 Wed
dunno if this has been mentioned, quite frankly not interested
in reading through the bagillion posts since the finales. since
its been confirmed that spike was the shanshu legend of the propehcies,
why the hell wasnt w&h up spikes *ss like it was up angels for
the past 4 years? how could they not know hes also a vamp with
a soul? to think those smart b*stards have connections to "powers,"
have the ability to change time and life, and have access to more
resources imaginable, they couldnt figure this out. all that wasted
time stalking angel....
[> Ummmm confrimed by whom????
-- W&H, 21:34:20 05/21/03 Wed
Spike died, just like Angel did. He will be brought back to life,
yes, but as a human? Not according to Minnear and Fury, but we'll
see. Don't think the sanshu was Spike's. Remember the show is
still called Angel.
[> Re: W&H (spoilers)
-- luvthistle1, 00:47:47 05/22/03 Thu
W&H was hoping Angel would wear the amulet, and perhaps "turn
human", or die. If you think about it, Angelus own the body.
Angel is the cursed soul put upon Angelus. When The soul is removed
it takes Angel a while to remember everything that "angelus
" had done,once he is return. But Spike is the demon. Spike
and the soul are one of the same.
[> If Spike Shanshus
-- lunasea, 09:29:45 05/22/03 Thu
Which I have no problem with, as I have stated with 10 reasons
above (mainly I don't want to be discussing souled Spike v souled
Angel and which one REALLY deserves Buffy, like she is some prize
to award, for the next year or so).
However Spike doesn't fit the prophecy: Wesley from "To Shanshu
in LA" "He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic
battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many
- fiends that will be unleashed."
Coming Darkness? Sort of
Apocalyptic battles? sort of (not really plural with the soul)
Few plagues? Oops. We have a problem Houston
Fiends that will be unleashed: Not really, unless you count the
The prophecy also contains the blind seer kids. What role did
they play? Why was Angel drawn to the scroll? The scroll is in
two shows and is more than just Shanshu.
Spike could very well turn human, but not off of the prophecy
Also the line Angel has when he leaves "I'm not getting any
older" is so much better when considering what Cordy says
when they find out about the prophecy "I hook up with the
only person in history who ever came to LA to get older."
When Angel does get any older, that is when ME will let these
two crazy kids be together. It is years down the road though,
probably when Buffy is around 26.
[> [> a plague of SITs?
a plague of Ubers? a plague of nerds? -- WickedBuffy j/k,
09:35:34 05/22/03 Thu
village voice literary supplement -- anom, 21:24:03 05/21/03
Today's Village Voice Literary Supplement has a review that manages
to cover both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy: Fear
and Trembling in Sunnydale (edited by James B. South) & D.
H. Lawrence's Studies in Classic American Literature, in
the new complete edition from Cambridge.
BY HOWARD HAMPTON
Buffy Amok in D.H. Lawrence's World
Nah, I'm not gonna copy the whole thing here--that would be copywrong!
a link to it.
The reviewer doesn't like the Buffy book much (prefers Reading
the Vampire Slayer [out last year, edited by Roz Kaveney]).
He has some interesting things to say about how "Buffy"
fits into D. H. Lawrence's worldview (litview?). Some of what
he says about "Buffy" seems kinda off to me, but I like
his conclusion about the show's message about academia (follow
the link & see for yourself!).
[> Is Buffy really "estranged
from her body?" -- mamcu, 06:33:56 05/22/03 Thu
Well worth reading! Love the use of Lawrence's ideas, and this
has some great insights into Buffy.
But one quibble--is Buffy really "estranged from her body?"
Granted, sex in the Buffy-verse is well-known to lead to grief--and
yet she risks it when she can.I think she breaks with all three
lovers--Angel, Riley, and Spike--not form fear of sex hurting
her, but because she sees the damage it does to them.
It's her body she most often uses as a weapon, true, but also
her body that gives her connection with others (in S7, little--no?--sex
for her, but she connects by holding hands with Willow, by holding
Spike, and it's when she holds his hand that the fire begins to
burn). When she's resurrected, she comes back in the flesh, not
as a spirit. I see her as connected not only to other people by
the end, but to her own body.
[> [> I don't think so,
either. I'd nominate Faith for that one. -- WickedBuffy, 09:38:55
[> Definitely a good read!
Thanks for the link -- ponygirl, 08:04:53 05/22/03 Thu
I've never been one for D.H. Lawrence myself but this was very
interesting. I agree with mamcu that I've never seen Buffy as
disconnected from her body. Emotions, yes, spirit, certainly.
The Body seems to explore this disconnect between body and self,
perhaps this is what the reviewer had in mind.
[> Goodness. That's my recommeded
daily intake of adjectives satisfied. -- Tchaikovsky, 09:48:46
[> [> I had the same
response! -- Caroline, 12:41:33 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> I think the article's
author was trying to impress his "literary" friends.
-- rowena, 15:16:56 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> But I thought
all the literary people were right here? -- WickedBuffy, 17:49:50
[> [> [> [> LOL..
The REAL ones, yeah. Hence the quotation marks above. -- rowena,
19:44:32 05/22/03 Thu
[> Thei is appropriate -
-- Darby, 12:13:44 05/22/03 Thu
As many folks assess their ties to and appreciation for this board,
to see something from the outer world that doesn't measure up
to most of the work done here is kind of fitting. Or am I wrong,
Great Ignoramus in Matters Literary that I am, that many of the
comparisons and allusions don't stand up to scrutiny very well?
And what the heck is a "tapeworm diet"? Should tapeworms
king (spoilers through "Home") -- Quentin Collins,
22:10:40 05/21/03 Wed
Angel taking over as the new head of the L.A. branch of W & H
has some very interesting possibilities. In many ways he is now
almost like a king. The L.A. branch of W & H probably has more
resources and more real power than the vast majority of the nations
in the world. The cold and sterile office building reminds me
more than a little of a huge castle. I am sure that there will
be more than a little bit of "palace intrigue" that
goes on within its walls.
Now that Angel has king-like power, will he be able to harness
it or will it corrupt him? W & H has always been evil to its core.
Can a good man change all of that? For example, if Hitler had
died just before WWII and a good man had become the head of Germany,
could he have changed what was to come? Or would such a man have
become powerless or even corrupted by the Nazi philosophical and
social machinery that was already in place?
Angel has always been broody and guilt ridden. Now he is the head
of an organization that has committed countless atrocities. Will
he feel responsible for them? Will he feel that he has to make
amends wherever and whenever he can for W & H's "sins"
in Los Angeles? Does he have any responsibility for these actions
or at least the responsibility to make whatever reparations are
possible? Did American presidential administrations that followed
slavery and the near genocidal campaign against Native Americans
(yet had no hand in these things) have some responsibility for
these things or at least have the responsibility to try to make
amends? What about the post war governments in Germany, Japan,
and Italy? The same questions of course will apply to whatever
governments are eventually formed in Afghanistan and Iraq.
In many ways the large body of employees of W & H that Angel has
inherited are like his subjects. Can he trust them? Will they
be loyal to him? Can he earn their trust and loyalty? Does he
share any core values with them?
How trustworthy is Lilah? How many strings does Angel's new "crown"
have anyway? Will he have any real power or will he (perhaps even
unknowingly) just become the puppet of W & H as a whole?
What will Angel's ruling strategy be? Ruling what amounts to a
large and powerful corporation is not like running a small business.
How much input will he allow those close to him to have? How much
input should he allow them to have?
I feel as if the fifth season of "Ats" may be the most
extraordinary yet. The new setting just seems ripe with Shakespearean
[> Re: Angel as king (spoilers
through "Home") -- CW, 05:48:56 05/22/03 Thu
Interesting take. Along these lines, I would add what happened
to Lando Mollari on Babylon 5. He became King (actually Emperor)
by making a deal with the bad guys thinking he could right many
wrongs in his society. His debt to the bad guys was too great,
and he simply became their slave. In the end it took all the inner
strength he could muster to just look the other way, while others
ended the evils of his reign.
I hope Spike
doesn't Shanshu -- Charlemagne,
23:21:24 05/21/03 Wed
No offense but Angel has earned his humanity. Spike's soul doesn't
have a "one true moment clause" and I doubt he really
wants to be human.
My personal opinion
[> I hope he do. --
luvthistle1, 01:19:31 05/22/03 Thu
....if you think about the irony of it. Spike do not know about
the "Shanshu", and although Spike "Do" want
to be human, ( he has 'desire" while most vamps do not),
he hate to be "powerless". to Spike being human, would
mean, being like "Xander". so , him "shanshu"
will be "ironic" and funny. Angel I also do not think
Angel is ready to turn human, considering he turn it down in "I
remember you", because he too, hate being powerless. he could
not protect Buffy as human, nor will he be able to protect Cordy,
as well. but if you think about it, regarless of which one turn
human, the other one will feel last superior. If Spike turn human,
Angel will feel cheated, because of all the things Spike will
be able to do, that Angel cannot,and Spike will feel "powerless",
because his new human status will mean he might have to look for
Angel for protection. so, either way someone will feel they are
getting the short end of the stick.
[> That's why I think he
should Shanshu. -- sassette, 06:54:47 05/22/03 Thu
I think the fact that Spike doesn't want to become human is exactly
why he should Shanshu, IMHO. "Chosen" indicated to me
that ME was just as invested in the idea of Spike's redemption
as many of us viewers were; I don't think they are going to throw
all of that away by making him evil on AtS. But, I'm also not
sure how or why they would justify bringing him back exactly as
he was; it would really cheapen his sacrifice, I think. It makes
sense that he would be human, because Spike, unlike Angel, had
the vampire thing down. He figured out a way to reconcile the
monster with the man, and how to have the man win out. He was,
I think, at peace with himself as he was in the end. The next
logical step for him, I think, is to deal with being human, which
he has no peace with.
Angel, on the other hand, has a lot to do before he could or even
should become human. He has to figure out how to reconcile Angel
with Angelus and get over a lot of the split personality stuff
he has going on. He has to accept that his current condition might
be his for eternity, and figure out how to deal with it. And I
think he perhaps has to realize that he might have been destined
to be "special"; his role in the world might be to be
a superhero, not to be a human.
Personally, I think that, in terms of "deserving," Spike
probably deserves being human more than Angel, because only he
was able to have his humanity overcome his instincts for evil
even as a vampire. But, I'm not sure it's about what the characters
deserve, but what they need to grow. And, in terms of character
development, I think making Spike human and taking away Angel's
hope for Shanshu would push both characters into interesting places.
[> [> Different Opinion
-- Laura, 07:33:50 05/22/03 Thu
Okay I disagree with you on a few points. Spike without his soul
didn't really overcome his instincts, the chip did. He couldn't
properely express those violent feelings, leaving him with the
obsessive ones (like for Buffy) and the more affectionate ones
(which all vampires seem capable of). True, he didn't keep on
plotting against the Scoobies but they were the only real companionship
unless Harmony counts. Vampires are social creatures like humans
Angel has worked longer than Spike to make amends. Angel can't
help that he has a nasty dark side. When it is unleased there's
absolutely nothing to keep it in check no soul and no chip.
Ever cared to think what you would do without a conscience?
[> [> [> Not exactly
-- mamcu, 07:53:20 05/22/03 Thu
I have never been a Spuffy shipper, but I do admire Spike and
find him a lot more interesting than Angel. The part that truly
interests me is how he found his own way to goodness. The chip
only prevented him from violence against humans--it didn't give
him regret or remorse. He felt that strongly enough as a vampire
to make the choice to seek a soul. Angelus has no conscience.
That's why I agreed that Spike has found a way to join Spike and
William, but Angel is still completely split off from Angelus.
Remember, Angel never made the choice to gain a soul--it was given
as a punishment for Angelus' evil.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Not exactly -- Corwin of Amber, 08:27:37 05/22/03 Thu
> He felt that strongly enough as a vampire to make the choice
to seek a soul.
Actually, I still think he sought a soul in hopes of having Buffy,
in his twisted obsessive stalker way. I believe he pretty much
stated that earlier in the season. Then he kind of realized that
having a soul brings a lot of other stuff to the table.
>Remember, Angel never made the choice to gain a soul--it was
given as a punishment for Angelus' evil.
Humans never made the choice to have a soul either. In that way,
Angel is a lot more human than Spike.
If Spike does Shansu...it DOE'S negate Angel, and whats more,
it negates Angel ON ANOTHER SHOW ON ANOTHER NETWORK. At that point...time
to stop watching Angel.
I think it'd be more interesting to see Spike come back as a human...without
a soul. :)
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Not exactly - again -- Rina, 08:35:10 05/22/03 Thu
"Actually, I still think he sought a soul in hopes of having
Buffy, in his twisted obsessive stalker way. I believe he pretty
much stated that earlier in the season. Then he kind of realized
that having a soul brings a lot of other stuff to the table."
Spike felt remorse and horror for his attack against Buffy. Realizing
he couldn't be a monster or a man, he decided to rectify this
by regaining his soul. To give Buffy, he believed, the kind of
man he felt that she deserved. He did this out of love for Buffy
and guilt for his attempted rape. Being a "twisted obssessive
stalker" had nothing to do with this.
This is not the first time he has ever felt remorse for anything.
He felt it after Xander, Buffy and the others discovered his little
affair with Anya. He felt guilty for Xander's sake, just as much
as for Buffy's. And Dawn's visit to his crypt only increased his
remorse. And he felt all of this . . . without a soul. Something
that Angeleus has yet to achieve.
[> [> [> [> [>
I feel so shallow (WK AtS Casting & Chosen Spoiler) --
fresne, 09:17:44 05/22/03 Thu
Gosh, and here I want Spike to become human because the actor
isn't getting any younger. As a human, he could be on Angel for
awhile, in a spin off or movies, if there are any.
Or you know, it's all Star Trek Insurection, umm...repeat after
me, Data is aging on purpose.
On a dramatic front, it seems like the worst possible thing (barring
all the other worst possible things that have already happened)
that could happen to either Angel or Spike. Therefore do it.
I mean, for Angel to become human is a reward. It's end of the
journey. His timer has dinged. Take that cookie out. For someone
else to get the thing that is his freaking I'm the Champion reward.
Oh, the brooding. The dark cloud of Achilles loitering in his
For Spike, who thinks with his blood, prides himself as a fighter,
it would be a painful step on the road to wherever the heck he's
going. Why would becoming human be remotely desirable?
And as I think about it, such a twist would the reverse trend
of characters getting more and more powerful. Everyone's gotten
so indescribably cool on AtS that I forsee the need for a little
Plus, funny scenes where Spike tries to smoke, but hey new air
breathing lungs. Heh, cough, hack, heh.
Actually, since I expect it, I doubt it will happen. Although,
as soon as I heard that Spike was crossing over as it were, I
figured him for dying in the BtVS finale. Sometimes it's hard
to guess just what kind of evil god Joss is. Grr. Argh.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Agree...LOL! Although..(WK AtS Casting & Chosen Spoiler)
-- s'kat, 09:56:30 05/22/03 Thu
Oh, fresne...I really do love your posts.
And I completely agree.
On a dramatic front, it seems like the worst possible thing
(barring all the other worst possible things that have already
happened) that could happen to either Angel or Spike. Therefore
Ah the irony. James Marsters has said the worst two things they
could do to his character would be to give Spike a soul or make
him human. I have this odd feeling Whedon was cackling when Marsters
stated that. The fans said the same thing. Whedon cackles louder.
And the writer in me whole-heartedly agrees with Whedon - do the
Actually, since I expect it, I doubt it will happen. Although,
as soon as I heard that Spike was crossing over as it were, I
figured him for dying in the BtVS finale. Sometimes it's hard
to guess just what kind of evil god Joss is. Grr. Argh.
Ah the statment that is going to make a spoiler trollop out of
me for Angel this summer.
The thing is - it just makes such perfect sense narrative wise.
I mean if you read the text in both shows - and the fact that
the writers deliberately connected the two shows this season with
important cross-overs...leads me to believe that they are going
to do it.
Heck Whedon splatters Chosen with hints regarding it.
Go back to Shanshu in LA - Cordelia miss hears Weseley's speech
and pronounces it as sans shoes? Do you mean without shoes? She
In Chosen - we have Spike dreaming of drowing in footwear.
The image in LMPTM of Anne without shoes looking somewhat human
when she's staked. Again in Chosen - Buffy's desire to go shopping
Angel is the one who brings the amulet to Buffy and wholeheartedly
expects to be the one to wear it in the final battle of Sunnydale
by her side. Just as the oracles prophesied in I Will Always Remember
You. Remember he was the only one with a soul back then.
So I think Whedon decided to twist it. Give Spike the shanshue
- this would torture the heck out of both characters and provide
all sorts of great stories and
The naysayers say it won't happen because it's Angel's show, but
that is actually the best reason for it to happen - if it happened
to Angel - the show would be over more or less. But if it happens
to someone else - Angel has to deal with it and deal with the
possibility that it may never happen for him and/or whether he
really wants it too.
Also the fact that Angel the Series has always been the more adult
and darker of the two shows - more noir than gothic in its leanings
and hence less likely to either redeem or reward it's anti-hero.
OTOH...the obviousness of it...makes me question the validity.
Is it too obvious? Too expected? In which case is it a mislead?
I've learned not to trust the obvious in these shows.
If they do it? It could be brilliant with both comedic and dramatic
potential and would make Spike the perfect dramatic/comedic foil.
It could also be really bad. Depends on how it's written. But
then everything does...doesn't it?
good post fresne.
[> I almost hope he does
(WKCS for AtS season5) -- lunasea, 08:58:32 05/22/03 Thu
1. It will annoy Angel and jealous Angel is still my favorite
Angel to watch (next to naked-in-bed-with-Buffy Angel)
2. It may cause Angel to think about pulling some strings at WR&H to
at least deal with the curse, if it hasn't already been done.
(I think it has been offered with Lilah's comment about "handling"
3. Won't have to watch JM fight any more.
4. What will Spike contribute to the cause now is much more interesting
than just another fighter in Angel's arsenal.
5. Won't have to compare souled Spike to souled Angel. That is
reason enough to have Spike come back human.
6. Will make it much more interesting when Buffy sees him again.
7. After Darla came back human, a human Spike is going to be met
with severe reservations by everyone. Humor will ensue.
8. We will find out what human Spike will wear and be called.
What will his hair look like? Will he lose the accent that he
9. Makes his dream about footwear more interesting. Drowning =ocean;
footwear = shoe. ocean shoe o shanshu
Also makes where he got is soul more interesting.
10. Angel will go back to being unique and the writers won't have
to worry about fitting Angel and Spike in the same car.
[> Agreed -- Miss Edith,
09:48:45 05/22/03 Thu
But not because I think one vampire has earned the reward more
than the other. I just prefer both Angel and Spike as vampires.
Spike is happy and at peace with being a vampire. I have never
thought of being ordinary and human as a great reward. Angel does
apparently so more power to him (although interestingly enough
he did reject humanity in IWRY because he wanted to keep fighting).
I don't see being special as a curse. Spike should accept and
embrace being a vampire, as should Angel. I would rather wait
for the finale of Angel before we have any shanshuing.
Honorificus (The Most Spectacularly Ill-Behaved One) -- HonorH,
23:40:20 05/21/03 Wed
You'll be glad to know we did eventually get her calmed down last
night. Thanks to those who donated furniture and tranq guns. We
hit her with three darts before she finally stopped throwing appliances
around, and then the minions and I poured vodka down her throat
until she was making these "nung-nung" sounds. Finally
wrestled her into her favorite jammies and sat her down in front
of the TV with a bowl of chocolate-covered raisins and some reruns
of "The Osbournes".
Anyway, today we've been feeding her Percocet-laced goat meat
and whiskey and letting her watch all manner of daytime TV while
we cleaned up the apartment. I think that by tomorrow, she should
be coherent enough to write up a review. Thanks to all who expressed
[> Oh my Godess! It's a
Slayerificus! I knew there'd be consequences! -- cougar, fleeing,
23:47:14 05/21/03 Wed
[> But that's the way we
love her best! -- fawning minion, 06:05:00 05/22/03 Thu
[> Aw. She's so cute when
she goe's into one of her homicidal rages. -- cjl, 07:18:26
[> Fire extinguisher? check.
Comfort food? check. Dark socks with dress shoes? check. --
pr10n (ready if you need back up), 07:43:26 05/22/03 Thu
[> How much do I love that
Her Spectacularly Sinfulness has... -- Haecceity, 10:04:55
...favourite jammies! Do tell, have they got little Gorash demon
feet? Or nummy human sushi print? Is there a woobie, too?
Just dying to know (and probably dying to find out),
| More May 2003