November 2001 posts
The moment you know (marriage)
spoilers?? -- Neaux, 07:40:10 11/09/01 Fri
When Xander decided to announce his engagement, there was a moment
that he looked at Anya and realized that was She was the one.
It's a shame that moment didn't come before he first proposed..
but regardless... He had that moment.. and it was televised for
the audience to see..
So He announces to the group they are getting married.. and we
get to this weeks episodes.. where Anya and Xander are singing
out their worries..
What I don't get is, It was obvious to the audience that He had
the Defining moment of Yes!! She's the ONe... but I guess that
Anya didn't realize it.. So in her song she sings about Xander
(hiding behind his buffy).. .
I dont read spoilers so I don't know what will happen in future
episodes.. but any mention of Xander and Buffy will make me go
crazy.. because I dont believe the writers on BTVS would have
included that "special moment" of Xander's realization
of the woman he plans to marry.. with any more Xander/Buffy hooha!
There better not be anyay.. Thank you for this little rant. -a
hopeless romantic and happily married of 6 months, Neaux (who
yes had a similar She's the One Moment)
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[> Re: The moment you know (marriage) spoilers?? -- maddog,
08:02:15 11/09/01 Fri
I think people are making too much about the hiding behind Buffy
line. You know when you're in a relationship and there are just
a few things about your partner that bother you...like an annoying
friend...or an annoying habit. I think that's where Anya's getting
that. I wouldn't look too far into it.
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[> Are you worried about future storylines or other posters'
opinions? -- Isabel, 08:46:46 11/10/01 Sat
The reason I ask is, there's a difference. Are you worried the
writers will put them together? You obviously feel that Xander
and Anya are terrific together, and I totally agree, but ultimately,
there's nothing we can do about future storylines.
Other people's opinions on the other hand... There are some people
who think that Buffy and Xander would make a good couple. Xander
had a huge crush on Buffy in early seasons and, and while Buffy,
in her right mind, has never returned his ardor, the fans of a
Buffy/Xander relationship haven't given up hope.
What I'm trying to say is, don't get too worried about other people's
opinions unless you see evidence, yourself, on the show to back
them up.
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[> mazel tov, neaux! -- anom, 10:28:46 11/11/01 Sun
May you & She who's the One for you have a long & happy (& silly,
if you like) life together!
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[> [> Re: mazel tov, neaux! -- Kimberly, 12:20:03 11/12/01
Mon
Silly is vital if you're going to survive. :-) (From a 14-year
veteran. And still going strong.)
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Mockery/Homage *SPOILERS for OMWF*
(Longish) -- Kimberly, 08:12:56 11/09/01
First of all, this was a fantastic episode. I have watched the
whole thing through twice, and the last three big numbers four
times. And my plan is to watch it all the way through again tonight,
at least twice.
While my husband and I were watching last night, we started noticing
how many of the songs evoked songs in other musicals we know.
It is my belief that, in addition to writing wonderful music and
lyrics that made the best musical use of the musical talent he
has and moved the season's arc forward in a significant way, he
was also mocking/honoring (in a forum like this,the two are close)
various musicals and musical genres. As an exercise, we tried
to figure out the specific song for each of the episode's songs.
Some of them ARE a stretch, and since I don't know a lot of the
current musicals (like Rent), I also suspect some of them are
off. So I'd like to hear what others have to say.
Going Through the Motions: Belle from Beauty and the Beast (Did
you notice that the demon had horns, similar to Beast's?)
I Have a Theory: I Hope I Get It from A Chorus Line
Under Your Spell: On My Own from Les Miserables
I'll Never Tell: No specific song, but any of the old Doris Day-type
50's/60's comedy musicals--right down to the costuming and set.
Rest In Peace: Gethsemane (I Only Want to Say) from Jesus Christ
Superstar
Dawn's dance: The fight scene in West Side Story
Sweet's Song: Magic to Do from Pippin. And it wouldn't have surprised
me in the least to discover that the actor playing Sweet was Ben
Vereen. (I know he's not, but I STILL hear and see Ben Vereen
in his numbers.)
Standing In Your Way: I Know Him So Well from Chess
Walk Through the Fire: Couldn't come up with one for this one.
However, as has already been pointed out, the beginning and last
few notes evoke The Sound of Silence by Paul Simon--incredibly
appropriate considering everything that's NOT being said this
season.
Play a Part: Pinball Wizard from Tommy.
Where Do We Go From Here?: No idea.
One other thing I noticed, the part of Walk Through the Fire where
Giles is leading to Scoobies to help Buffy reminds me strongly
of the scene in Primeval in which Buffy is leading the others
to the Initiative Lab to stop Adam. The echo feels deliberate
to me.
OK, everyone. Comments, disagreements, elaborations? An episode
like this cries for 100% of your attention. At least until Joss
pulls the next rabbit out of his hat. (Joss Whedon creative? Couldn't
be.) ;-)
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[> Re: Mockery/Homage *SPOILERS for OMWF* (Longish) -- Rob,
08:38:01 11/09/01 Fri
Very good comparisons! I'd like to add a few myself.
"Walking Through the Fire" I see as similar to the reprise
of "Tonight" in West Side Story, or "One Day More"
in Les Miz. Right before the climax of the show, every character
sings in a huge number about what is about to happen.
Also, in "Where Do We Go From Here?" I heard a little
bit of "Tommy." Namely, the song, "Tommy, Can You
Hear Me?"
For "I Have a Theory," you said "I Hope I Get It"
and ya know? You're right! I hadn't even thought of that. I think
it also has a bit of a Sondheimesque quality. That Sondheimishness
(I know it's not a word! lol) pervaded the whole score, I think,
especially concerning the lyrics and the great wordplay.
"(Joss Whedon creative? Couldn't be.) ;-)"
LOL. EW.com said that Joss should have called the episode "Hey,
Look At Me! I'm A Freakin' Genius! (Part Three)" (pts 1 and
2 being "Hush" and "The Body") How true, how
true!
Rob
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[> [> Thanks -- Kimberly, 10:13:37 11/09/01 Fri
Thanks for the kind words.
I'm afraid I don't know a lot of musicals: I only know two songs
from Tommy, and "Tommy Can You Hear Me" isn't one of
them. And I don't know any of Sondheim's, or if I do, I don't
know they ARE Sondheim.
On "Walk Through the Fire", I'd be more inclined to
say "Tonight" than "On My Own", but that may
be because I can't remember the Reprise version of it.
Have you noticed that all three of the episodes play with what
is "heard". Hush, of course, has no voices for about
half the episode; The Body has no soundtrack; Once More with Feeling,
musical. Maybe he should use that as the subtitle.
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[> [> [> "Tonight", definitely -- listening,
11:37:45 11/09/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> Re: "Tonight", definitely --
RichardX1, 09:36:59 11/11/01 Sun
I've never heard "Tonight", but I definitely saw the
parallels to "One Day More" from Les Misarables
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[> [> Re: Mockery/Homage *SPOILERS for OMWF* (Longish) --
Nadya V., 06:15:33 11/10/01 Sat
I noticed another one in the final song between Buffy and Spike,
Spike makes reference to a parade with "76 trombones".
This is a recurring song in the "The Music Man", a musical
about a somewhat sleazy immoral man who is changed by the reluctant
love of a "good" woman. In fact the whole scene reminds
me of the scene in "The Music Man" were the two lovers
declare their love and how it has made them feel alive again in
a song which was something of a breakaway pop hit of it's era.
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[> Re: Mockery/Homage *SPOILERS for OMWF* (Longish) -- Solitude1056,
08:44:58 11/09/01 Fri
Sweet's song reminded me, actually, of "It Ain't Necessarily
So," from Porgy and Bess... right down to the soft-shoe tapping,
the silent beats between phrases, and the quiet sardonic laughter
after each phrase - not to mention the fact that at first it sounds,
like Ain't Necessarily So, like it's a 'good' thing... it's only
once you get in farther that the singer reveals he's actually
on the other side of the argument. (Sportin' Life, in Porgy and
Bess, starts out by singing about the 'grandfathers' of the Bible,
talking about how Methusaleh lived to be a hundred, blah blah
blah, and then nails it by saying that this ain't necessarily
so. He's gotten everyone to agree with what he says, and then
shows that he's got different intentions/interpretations behind
his original position.)
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[> [> Thematic vs. Music *Spoilers* -- Kimberly, 10:33:00
11/09/01 Fri
First, the only songs from Porgy and Bess that I know is "I
Got Plenty of Nothin'" and "Summertime", so I can't
comment on the song itself. However, from your description, thematically
you may be absolutely correct.
I was responding to something else: The fact that when I watched
this, from the first, I saw and heard Ben Vereen as the Leading
Player in the movie. That image and association is now stuck in
my head and won't go away.
BTW, since you obviously know more about musicals than me (not
hard, although my husband's trying), do you know what the "Showtime!"
is from. I could swear it's from a musical, and I could swear
Ben Vereen's the one who said it. Or am I just crazier? ;-)
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[> [> [> "It's Showtime!" -- Vickie, 10:40:54
11/09/01 Fri
I don't know if this is the originator, or if the line was an
homage there, but "It's Showtime!" is from All That
Jazz.
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[> [> [> [> Thanks (NT) -- Kimberly, 11:05:20 11/09/01
Fri
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[> [> [> [> Re: "It's Showtime!" -- Solitude1056,
11:24:54 11/09/01 Fri
It may an homage, since I've also heard it in Chicago, and some
other musical or play that now I can't recall... uh, the Fantasticks,
maybe?
(And I'm not that up on musicals - I happen to think Andrew Lloyd
Webber is just high-priced muzak, and that Gilbert & Sullivan
wrote some of the silliest ditties.)
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[> [> [> [> And remember that Ben Vereen played ...no
wait...Jessica Lange played death but... -- A8, 16:07:18 11/09/01
Fri
Ben Vereen had a major dance number in the middle of Roy Scheider's
(as Bob Fosse) heart attack sequence. Scheider would pop those
pep pills, put in the visine, look at himself wearily and say
that line quite a few times. This, in turn, conjures up the image
of the wannabe cheerleader choreographer in 'Bring It On' (starring
Faith, I mean ED, as the cheerleader slayer).
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[> [> [> [> Re: "It's Showtime!" -- anom,
10:39:47 11/11/01 Sun
Doesn't the line go back farther than that? I seem to remember
a WB cartoon character calling out, "Iiiiitt's Showtime!"
back in the original Bugs-&-Daffy days, which means they got
it from something even earlier. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised
if it dates back to vaudeville.
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[> Re: Mockery/Homage *SPOILERS for OMWF* (Longish) -- Becky74,
10:51:25 11/09/01 Fri
There is a song in Evita that I think is called "Where do
I go from here" that even sounds a little similar. If I start
singing one of them in my head, I end up singing the other.
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[> Where Do We Go from Here -- LoriAnn, 13:07:14 11/09/01 Fri
Isn't "Where Do We Go from Here" reminiscent of "Superheroes"
from "The Rocky Horror Picture Show." The meaning is
certainly similar, as is the general tone.
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[> Re: Mockery/Homage *SPOILERS for OMWF* (Longish) -- Doug
A Scott, 15:45:57 11/09/01 Fri
As well as the "West Side Story" fight, Dawn's dance
with the demons kept reminding me of the nightmare sequence in
"Oklahoma."
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[> [> Re: Mockery/Homage *SPOILERS for OMWF* (Longish) --
Kimberly, 19:45:08 11/09/01 Fri
Actually, that was my first call when my husband and I were discussing
it, but he convinced me to go with West Side Story. Both are good.
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Let's Face the Music and Dance:
Couples in OMwF Part I -- rowan, 08:47:23 11/09/01 Fri
Using timeless classical patterns, Joss focuses the action around
three pairs of couples:
1. Anya/Xander 2. Willow/Tara 3. Buffy/Spike
Each couple can be described by their purpose within the musical:
Anya/Xander as the Stable Couple, Willow/Tara as the Disintegrating
Couple, and Buffy/Spike as the Forming Couple. Clearly, Buffy
and Spike are the *lead* couple: both their introduction and their
denouement are held off for last.
Anya and Xander are the Stable (Maintaining) Couple. Of the three
pairs, they are the only ones to sing a duet together. Granted,
there are hints of trouble in paradise; but throughout most of
the musical, they are together. They do very little in the musical
on a solo basis. Of all the couples, they are presented as the
most static and stable.
Willow and Tara are the Disintegrating Couple. This couple does
not really have an interactive duet. They frame a scene where
Tara sings to Willow of her love. Willow is an active partner
in the scene, but she doesn't sing or reveal herself. This hints
at the trouble that Tara later reveals in her solo. Willow is
the actor and Tara the acted upon. This is reflected in the fact
that Tara does the majority of the singing in this couple; she
has a lot to reveal about her reactions. We hear only about her
side of the relationship, her perception of it. Willow really
has no meaningful lines at all. Eventually, she comes to realize
through the musical that she must leave Willow. It's really quite
wonderful how Joss managed to incorporate AH's reluctance to sing
into one of the major thematic arcs of the season.
Buffy and Spike are the Forming /Lead Couple. They both have strong
solo appearances that outline their major themes. For Buffy, this
is her acknowledgement that she is detached from life ('going
through the motions') and her desire to feel again ('get her fire
back.'). For Spike, this is his acknowledge that he is detached
from life (dead) and his torment over feeling again ('you [Buffy]
make me feel alive"). They also have several numbers together.
Spike's duet, of course, actively includes Buffy, even though
she does not yet sing with him at this point in the musical. Buffy's
major solo, where she burns to death, incorporates Spike in its
resolutions. Their one true duet (while very short) is held off
as the conclusion of the entire musical, in the classical fashion
for all lead lovers.
As the story plays out, we have two other couples who feature
prominently in the mix: Buffy/Giles and Dawn(Buffy)/Sweet. These
couples are also used to illuminate the issues faced by the Lead
Couple. Buffy/Giles as a couple represent the dynamic of Child/Father.
Giles' song about Buffy, while she trains, reflects his worry
over her continued detachment and his sincere desire to connect
in some way to her. His attempt to 'penetrate her heart' ultimately
fails, however, since Buffy doesn't hear him at all. She's cut
off from the paternal love he offers. She is eerily out of step
(as demonstrated by her slaying moves) with his emotions and his
meaning. Buffy also refuses to let Giles penetrate her heart for
much of the musical. She doesn't reveal what she sang about 'going
through the motions' and when they discuss the nature of the problem
they face, she responds with the easy platitudes about 'facing
things together.'
Let's compare this with how Buffy reacts to Spike's song. Although
she does not sing during Spike's song, her expressions and actions
show she is actively engaged. She is at once annoyed, angry, aroused,
and amazed. She's irritated that he's confessing his love again;
she's apprehensive when he breaks the bottle; she's in active
Slayer mode when she pulls him off the priest. Then, in the conclusion
of the scene, she's afraid to answer the question he's really
posing when they are lying together in the grave: 'even though
I'm physically dead and you're emotionally dead, are we going
to live again by becoming lovers?' She flees.
TBC
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[> Re: Let's Face the Music and Dance: Couples in OMwF Part
2 -- rowan, 08:48:35 11/09/01 Fri
Part of the musical pits the Forming Couple against the Child/Father
Couple. When they all meet up and hear Sweet's nefarious plan,
Giles and Spike have opposing opinions about what to do. Giles
advocates that Buffy go alone. Spike thinks this is crazy. When
the group (reluctantly) sides with Giles, Spike tells Buffy he
will 'watch her back' and to 'forget them.'
This is an important moment. Buffy can either follow her father's
advice, her lover's advice, or her own course. She rejects her
lover's advice. But the way she rejects it is telling: not on
the basis of its worth, but because Spike has hurt her by saying
he wanted her to 'stay away.'
Buffy turns to her father for his advice. Buffy does finally hear
Giles. What manages to penetrate is his insistence that she face
the troubles alone. Since Buffy didn't hear the earlier message,
she takes his advice, but again, she is acting our of emotion,
not intellect. She leaves and perceives that she has been abandoned
by everyone.
The other interesting couple is Dawn(Buffy)/Sweet. Dawn's themes
of feeling invisible are quite touchingly portrayed by her interactions
with the demon who wants to make her his child bride (a al Beetlejuice).
But beyond her own self, Dawn represents Buffy. This is later
made abundantly clear when Buffy consciously repeats the choice
of The Gift: to substitute for Dawn. Buffy's desire to submit
to Sweet and his song is her death wish come back with a vengeance.
She can literally emote herself into a flaming death; she'll feel,
but it will be an unchanneled, frenzied world of feeling where
getting mustard out and being torn out of heaven are equally 'things
to sing about.' Then, once she receives the blessing of this sweet
oblivion of song, she can return to bliss.
This is where all the themes intersect in the penultimate scene.
Giles' quickly repents his (erroneous) fatherly advice and shepherds
everyone down to the Bronze to provide 'backup.' But this course
of action is ineffectual as Buffy begins a frenzied dance of death.
Suddenly, her abandoned lover appears (having gotten over his
snit), to grab her and save her both by deeds and words. Spike
tells Buffy that life isn't about songs or bliss, it's just this
- living, with all its messy complications. And his best advice
is his last advice: fake it until you make it. But Buffy hasn't
just been saved by her lover; he's helped, but she really (like
Dorothy) knew the way home all the time: her alternate self, Dawn,
repeats her dying words that 'the hardest thing to do in this
world is to live in it.'
In confusion after this big revelation, the gang continue to sing,
asking 'where do we go from here?' even though the spell is broken
by Sweet's departure. They can't break free of the song world.
Tellingly, it is again Spike (who can never tolerate too much
human society for any period of time!) who breaks the chain and
flees the scene. Buffy, now ready to choose her lover over her
father and her death wish, chases after him, confessing that she
does want 'to feel.' Spike, with the good sense of all romantic
heroes, responds that he wants 'to feel' alive also. They sweep
into a life-affirming, very sexual embrace - because after all,
there's no sex in heaven or in songs, is there?
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[> [> That was great! -- Rahael, 09:23:47 11/09/01 Fri
Reminds me of another famous poem (it must be my quote poetry
day!)
"The graves a fine and private place, But none do there embrace
I think"
(from memory, could be wrong....)
Thanks Rowan
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[> [> [> ack! -- Rahael, 09:37:10 11/09/01 Fri
*Now* I remember..typical! The quote is, of course,
"The grave's a fine and private place But none, I think,
do there embrace"
That's better. From another favourite, Andrew Marvell.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Marvell and 'Carpe Diem' -- Aquitaine,
14:22:41 11/09/01 Fri
I love how BtVS is returning to the theme of 'carpe diem' (albeit
in a much more mature context) that it began exploring in Season
One. The great part of it all is being able to see just how much
the series and the characters have developed, and just how much
they haven't. Very neat.
-Aquitaine
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[> [> [> More Marvell -- Brian, 09:44:02 11/09/01 Fri
To His Coy Mistress
HAD we but World enough, and Time, This coyness Lady were no crime.
We would sit down, and think which way To walk, and pass our long
Loves Day. Thou by the Indian Ganges side 5 Should'st Rubies find:
I by the Tide Of Humber would complain. I would Love you ten years
before the Flood: And you should if you please refuse Till the
Conversion of the Jews. 10 My vegetable Love should grow Vaster
then Empires, and more slow. An hundred years should go to praise
Thine Eyes, and on thy Forehead Gaze. Two hundred to adore each
Breast: 15 But thirty thousand to the rest. An Age at least to
every part, And the last Age should show your Heart. For Lady
you deserve this State; Nor would I love at lower rate. 20 But
at my back I alwaies hear Times winged Charriot hurrying near:
And yonder all before us lye Desarts of vast Eternity. Thy Beauty
shall no more be found; 25 Nor, in thy marble Vault, shall sound
My ecchoing Song: then Worms shall try That long preserv'd Virginity:
And your quaint Honour turn to dust; And into ashes all my Lust.
30 The Grave's a fine and private place, But none I think do there
embrace. Now therefore, while the youthful hew Sits on thy skin
like morning [dew] And while thy willing Soul transpires 35 At
every pore with instant Fires, Now let us sport us while we may;
And now, like am'rous birds of prey, Rather at once our Time devour,
Than languish in his slow-chapt pow'r. 40 Let us roll all our
Strength, and all Our sweetness, up into one Ball: And tear our
Pleasures with rough strife, Thorough the Iron gates of Life.
Thus, though we cannot make our Sun 45 Stand still, yet we will
make him run.
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[> [> [> [> Thanks Brian -- Rufus, 14:42:46 11/09/01
Fri
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[> [> [> [> More poetry for Buffy... -- Arachne, 07:51:14
11/11/01 Sun
the fire is out at the heart of the world; all the tame creatures
have grown up wild. the lives I trusted, even my own, collapse,
break off or don't belong...
the fire is out at the heart of the world, all the tame creatures
have grown up wild, all except you, your life like a cloud I am
lost in and will never be found.
- Andrew Motion, I can't remember the title
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[> [> Re: Let's Face the Music and Dance: Couples in OMwF
Part 2 -- Rob, 09:24:41 11/09/01 Fri
Wonderful essay, Rowan! I really enjoyed reading it, and I agreed
with everything you said.
I started a thread farther down called "Deconstructing OMWF."
If you haven't read it yet, I think you'd enjoy it. I'd also like
your opinions on it. I basically focused on a comparison to Buffy's
death in "The Gift" and her death wish in OMWF. But
if you have time...please read it.
Rob :)
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[> [> [> Re: Let's Face the Music and Dance: Couples
in OMwF Part 2 -- rowan, 10:02:17 11/09/01 Fri
Thanks for the suggestion. I just got back from 2 weeks of vacation
in the UK, so I haven't been keeping up with all the postings.
I'll take a look tonight!
:)
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[> [> Excellent analysis. Thank you. -- Ryuei, 10:36:11
11/09/01 Fri
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[> [> Re: Let's Face the Music and Dance: Couples in OMwF
Part 2 -- pr10n, 11:01:23 11/09/01 Fri
Thanks Rowan that was a lot of great thought.
> They can't break free of the song world. Tellingly, it is
> again Spike (who can never tolerate too much human > society
for any period of time!) who breaks the chain and > flees the
scene.
It seems that Spike is closest to the truth about himself -- he
can break free of the singing spell, while the others seem compelled
to stay in the "truth zone" a little longer. Does Buffy's
exit mean she's close to understanding some truth about herself?
About her relationship with Spike?
Just typing out loud.
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[> [> [> Isolation & Alientation vs. Differentiation
-- rowan, 11:26:20 11/09/01 Fri
Well, good question. It's always hard to know how to interpret
when the Scoobies isolate themselves. The vampires are symbols
of alienation per ME, which is not a good thing. So Buffy leaving
with Spike could be a very bad sign. On the flip side, it could
be part of the growing up lesson: you have to differentiate yourself
from your friends at some point so that you can eventually reconnect
in a more mature, healthy way.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Isolation & Alientation vs. Differentiation
-- verdantheart, 11:35:00 11/09/01 Fri
Great, as always, rowan.
I, too, thought it was interesting that Spike seemed to be able
to resist the spell -- except when it came to the subject of Buffy.
As we know, Spike has no qualms about stating his opinion on any
subject -- other than Buffy, where he's been keeping his mouth
shut out of respect for her feelings (and probably a sense of
hopelessness).
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[> [> [> [> [> Bursting Into Song *Spoilers* --
Kimberly, 11:56:58 11/09/01 Fri
My impression throughout the episode was that people burst into
song when they were caught up in the emotions. (This even includes
Mustard Guy and Parking Ticket Lady, BTW.) Until he started talking
to Buffy, Spike was unemotional; faced with Buffy, he got caught
in the music.
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[> [> [> [> [> It's all there to see... -- rowan,
12:02:49 11/09/01 Fri
Thank you. *g*
Interesting point. Spike is so blunt, he had nothing else to reveal
to anyone -- but he was keeping something from Buffy. I give him
high marks for having kept this secret from Buffy (even though
secrets are usuallly bad in BtVS). This secret was kept in order
to allow Buffy to continue to have one undemaning friend available.
It showed Spike was willing to put Buffy's needs above his own
desire to get into her pants, so to speak (his critic's biggest
complaint against him, I guess).
But now that it's out -- whew! Interesting times ahead.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Immunity -- CW, 13:45:04 11/09/01
Fri
It's interesting the claim of immunity came up again. The last
time I remember it was in Something Blue when Buffy claimed to
be immune from the craziness of Willow's wishes. And that time,
too, Buffy and Spike found themselves kissing each other.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Isolation & Alientation vs.
Differentiation -- Rufus, 14:52:10 11/09/01 Fri
There is no mistake that Spike was drinking when Buffy arrived.
The fact that his inhibitions were lowered a tiny bit helped him
finally confess in song what he had been feeling. His song was
also unselfish in that he was trying to keep his love to himself.
He tried to get Buffy to leave but as usual she wanted to stay.
His confession..hey there was even a priest there to hear it......was
that his unbeating heart could still be broken. He has also assumed
that Buffy's attitude hasn't changed from Crush where she told
him he was disgusting. No matter how angry he got he quickly resolved
to help Buffy. Love can be a crazy thing where emotions and words
switch from love to hate back to love again. But in the end both
parties want to feel alive, Buffy expressed that wish in Going
through the Motions and Spike in Rest in Peace..then again at
the end where they kiss.
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[> [> [> Re: Let's Face the Music and Dance: Couples
in OMwF Part 2 -- anom, 10:56:56 11/11/01 Sun
"It seems that Spike is closest to the truth about himself
-- he can break free of the singing spell, while the others seem
compelled to stay in the "truth zone" a little longer."
And Spike has always been the one most aware of human emotions,
often speaking truths others are unwilling to deal with about
their feelings. I wonder if that's part of why he's the 1st to
break free of the spell--he doesn't need it to be in the "truth
zone."
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[> [> Excellent! A welcome break from my day. -- Deeva,
11:05:38 11/09/01 Fri
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[> [> Re: Ah, beautiful. Great to have rowan back. :) --
mundusmundi, 13:37:43 11/09/01 Fri
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[> [> [> *blushing* ....thank you. -- rowan, 13:49:22
11/09/01 Fri
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| ATPoBtVS Archives Oct 2000-July 2001 |
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Deconstructing OMwF (cont'd from
Rob's below) -- rowan, 11:28:13 11/09/01
Please note: I'm posting this as a response to Deconstructing
Once More with Feeling by Rob. That post is falling to the bottom
of the page, so I didn't want my response to this great post to
get lost in the shuffle. :)
Well, Rob, I seriously wish I had read your essay before I posted
mine on the couples, because we're obviously on the same page
in major ways.
"I think the most brilliant aspect of this episode's plot
is how it echoed The Gift. Buffy was once again here given a chance
to die, and possibly regain heaven. And once again, when given
the choice, she chooses to take Dawn's place...The last time Buffy
died, it was for a purpose."
Great point. ME loves to repeat the same essential story, but
play with the elements and the choices to make an entirely different
point. We had a lot of debate about suicide vs. sacrifice at the
end of last season; I'd say Joss is weighing in with his intent:
sacrifice. Last season, we learned about the Slayer death wish
from Spike and about Buffy's gift for death from the First Slayer.
We were left wondering: which is it when she leaps from the tower?
Buffy certainly thinks she has found her meaning through her death.
It doesn't on the surface look like the dark fascination with
death that characterizes Spike's "one good day." And
of course, The Gift was brilliant because it presented the choice
of S2 again: kill the beloved or let the world go to hell? Whereas
in S2 Buffy chose to sacrifice Angel, she refused to in S5. Instead,
she sacrificed herself.
"Why did the people combust? Because, in a musical, characters
wear their hearts on their sleeves. Their emotions are all extremely
palpable and overwhelming...It makes sense that if this happened
in "the real world" people's emotions would get too
strong, their passion would become so intense that they would
dance themselves to death."
But as you point out (rightly, IMO), this time it's not the honorable
sacrifice she's making. She's succumbing to the death wish. The
fire imagery (I wrote a bit on this below in Malandaza's post)
is confusing in this episode. The fire is both inspiration and
consumption at the same time: in its positive manifestation, it
is a passion for life: it is Buffy's desire to reconnect with
the world. In its negative manifestation, it is the frenzied (a
positive thing) where getting the mustard out and confessing you
were torn from heaven have the same emotional impact. It's those
red shoes you were talking about.
So Buffy's choice is now framed as a desire to succumb to her
death wish (her natural desire for rest) vs. the everyday of living.
It's interesting how ME gives Buffy the answer. They take Spike
(who imparted the original death wish and last season was its
main advocate as he expressed his desire for his 'one good day')
and put the truth in his mouth: living is just living, every day.
Fake it until you make it. Then Dawn, Buffy's alter ego, repeats
Buffy's dying declaration: 'the hardest thing in this world is
to live in it.'
"Each of them this year has been keeping things to themselves...Most
of these secrets are things the characters would never have been
able to reveal to anyone."
Secrets tend to be a bad thing among the Scoobies, don't they?
Usually when we see secrets, we see dissonance, disharmony, and
disunity, as in S4. But I also think part of the lesson here is
that we can't reveal all our secret things, because no relationship
can thrive in total honesty. It seems as if we must distinguish
between what is important and relevant enough to reveal and what
is hurtful and irrelevant. This is a hard thing to do, I think.
"I like the fact that Xander had summoned the demon."
Me too, and I wondered very much about all the meanings. You're
so right about the marriage issue: it's on his mind all the time.
But Xander also dabbled in magic without full understanding of
its consequences. That gives him quite a potentially empathetic
link to Willow, doesn't it? We talked before about Willow being
a fixer; Xander was doing a Willow here. Neither intend to kill
or hurt, but it happens.
When Xander learns about the spontaneous combustions and still
doesn't 'fess up, that gives him quite a bit of an empathetic
link to Spike, doesn't it? When Spike feeds, he causes harm. Xander
now knows, by concealing the information about the necklace, what
it is like to cause direct harm. Xander really almost gets Dawn
and Buffy killed. He has no excuse not to know this, after the
combustions are revealed.
Will Xander understand his lesson? I don't know.
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[> Re: Deconstructing OMwF (cont'd from Rob's below) -- Rob,
12:25:07 11/09/01 Fri
First off, I have to thank you so much for all the kind words
about my humble little post. I'm really glad ya liked it so much.
*blushes* :)
Now, that I got that out of the way (hee hee)...
You said: "But as you point out (rightly, IMO), this time
it's not the honorable sacrifice she's making. She's succumbing
to the death wish. The fire imagery (I wrote a bit on this below
in Malandaza's post) is confusing in this episode. The fire is
both inspiration and consumption at the same time: in its positive
manifestation, it is a passion for life: it is Buffy's desire
to reconnect with the world. In its negative manifestation, it
is the frenzied (a positive thing) where getting the mustard out
and confessing you were torn from heaven have the same emotional
impact. It's those red shoes you were talking about.
I couldn't agree more, and you make a very interesting point about
both the positive and negative aspects about the fire. Buffy feels
empty, emotionless. As she sings, "I touch the fire and it
freezes me/I look into it and it's black/Why can't I feel?/My
skin should crack and peel/I want the fire back!" But, at
the same time, too much fire is a bad thing, and back to the red
shoes and Danse Macabre. Perhaps, then, the negative or positive
aspects are based on the manner and intensity with which the "fire"
is brought about. In other words, while "no fire" is
a bad thing, too much fire is bad as well. And too much fire too
quickly is the worst thing of all. It all comes back to what I
believe is the best line in the show's history, "Fire bad.
Tree pretty." Interestingly, in "Flooded" this
year, Buffy changed her mind about this line. When she jokingly
offered the idea that they should burn her house down to solve
the problems of her mounting bills, she said, "And, besides...fire
pretty." At the state of mind Buffy was in "Graduation
Day," after recently breaking up with Angel and battling
Faith, she had too much fire, too much passion, too much (fill
in the blanks)...At that point, fire is a bad thing. In "Flooded,"
Buffy sees it as a "pretty" thing. Something she desperately
wants back.
Buffy's dance at the end is a desperate attempt to reclaim her
fire, despite the cost. By forcing the fire to return to her life,
the intensity of her emotion/passion/fire-and-all-it-signifies,
etc. will destroy her. But as Spike sings, "The pain that
you feel/ Only can heal/By living." Time heals all wounds.
Buffy has been trying to force herself back into the world for
the benefit of her friends, so they will not worry about her,
and then being depressed that this act is not making her feel
any better. Spike, however, tells her that eventually she will
feel better. Only by returning into the pattern of living in the
world will she eventually reacquaint herself with it, and eventually,
get her fire back.
I believe that Buffy has been confusing her own definitions of
fire. On the one hand, she believes it refers to the passion of
being alive, and a zest for life. On the other hand, she found
that "fire," that overwhelming love in heaven. On the
one hand, she wants to return to the world of the living. As long
as she is doomed to stay on Earth, she wants to be happy. On the
other hand, she knows that whatever fire she reclaims on Earth
will never equal that of the joy she experienced in heaven. She
sees Earth now as "hell" in comparison to heaven. Therefore,
when she offers to take Dawn's place in hell, I could see her
probably reasoning that literal hell can be no worse than the
one she is experiencing now. After being ripped out of eternal
paradise, love, and warmth, every other place she could possibly
be seem to have the same degree of hellishness.
At the end, again, Buffy tries to reclaim her fire by passionately
kissing Spike. I read some posts debating whether she was right
or wrong to do this, but I do not consider what she did a bad
thing. For one, it is a far less self-destructive way of "trying
to feel" than the last way she tried. Further, I do not see
anything wrong with her seeing an opportunity to feel again, and
taking it. What's more, she has had feelings for Spike, and she
knows how much he loves her. She has entrusted him with her deepest
secret long before her other friends. She trusts him, she understands
him, and, what's more, he understands her. Although some may argue
that this kiss is just as artificial as the dance, the dance is
a self-destructive act. A kiss is the opposite. A kiss is a life-affirming,
wonderful thing. And that, I believe, is the major difference.
"Secrets tend to be a bad thing among the Scoobies, don't
they? Usually when we see secrets, we see dissonance, disharmony,
and disunity, as in S4. But I also think part of the lesson here
is that we can't reveal all our secret things, because no relationship
can thrive in total honesty. It seems as if we must distinguish
between what is important and relevant enough to reveal and what
is hurtful and irrelevant. This is a hard thing to do, I think."
I think your idea of revealing TOO MUCH as being a bad thing perfectly
blends into the symbol of the fire. Fire can be a good thing,
but too much, too fast is not. As hard as it is to differentiate
between whether fire is good or bad, it is hard to decide which
secrets are best left hidden and which are not. Buffy's revelation
about heaven, for example, should probably have been kept hidden.
For one, its only result is making the rest of the SG feel awful
for what they have done. Secrets that make others feel worse when
they are revealed are usually not a good thing. Further, by telling
her friends, it does not solve anything. That comes along with
the bad effects of this spell. Xander and Anya's revelations about
their doubts to each other? That may have been a good thing. It's
probably healthy to admit your doubts to one another instead of
keeping them hidden. These are things that can be worked out,
and discussed. A fall from heaven is not.
Anyway, I'm not sure where to wrap up.
Oh, but I would also like to say how much I agreed with what you
said, in your "Let's Face the Music..." post about how
ingenious it was that Joss was able to incorporate Allyson's not
wanting to sing into a driving force for this year's major story
arc so far. Willow is completely detached in a different way from
Buffy--she seems to be detatched from reality, believing that
magic can solve every problem. Why deal with an argument between
a girlfriend when you can just flush her memory down the toilet?
Why bother going to the store when you can whip up some magic
decorations in a flash? With that, I pose the question, does Willow
need to get her "fire" for life back also? Despite Buffy's
doubts, she has been, up to her dance, taking the natural way
of reincorporating herself back into reality...slowly. Willow,
meanwhile, has been distancing herself from the real world. Maybe
the problem is that Willow has TOO MUCH fire to play with, and
her use of it is too casual, too easy.
Rob
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[> [> Willow and Fire -- Kimberly, 13:01:23 11/09/01 Fri
First of all, I have been reading this thread about fire feeling
like an idiot. Some incredible, provocative thoughts from all
of you (here and down below).
What you had to say about Willow made me think. Willow herself
may be cut off from the fire, the fire of love. She thinks she
has it, but by hiding so much of what she is doing to prevent
arguments, she is cutting herself off from the fire of life, of
love. And I think the only way for Willow to save herself is for
her to get burned. Next week may start on that path with the inevitable
fight (and loss?) of Tara. I hope it happens soon; I have identified
with Willow since the beginning of the series.
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[> [> Thought on Balance -- rowan, 13:36:16 11/09/01 Fri
Hmmm...I'm at work right now, so I can't really develop this idea,
but what you're saying is triggering some ideas.
First, is there a message in here about balance? I am reminded
of the Medieval/Renaissance ideas of medicine that see the body
composed of four (?) humours which must be in balance. Buffy may
have too much melancholy right now.
Following up on balance, the elements seem to need to be in balance
as well:
Fire (inspiration) Earth (grounding, materials, home/hearth) Water
(emotion) Air (intellect)
I bet we could really get some interesting observations about
the musical, Buffy, and Willow if we pursued this line of thinking...
rowan
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[> [> [> Alchemical transformation -- Rahael, 14:50:24
11/09/01 Fri
I see a connection here with the neo-platonic obsession with alchemy,
(and, of course, the idea of the Aristotelian 'Golden Mean').
Alchemical belief wasn't just about making gold from lead....it
was a metaphor for transforming the ordinary, the human into 'gold'
- so that the greatest spiritual achievement of a human being
would be to transform the base metal into spiritual gold. That
of course came from a mysterious balance of different elements,
a peculiar spritual alchemy.
And here we come back to Andrew Marvell, and his most wonderful
poem 'Upon Appleton House' which is redolent with the images and
instruments of alchemical transformation.
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[> [> [> [> bwahaha. -- Solitude1056, 17:54:09 11/09/01
Fri
Which is exactly why the Parts in Dark Alchemy have those oh-so-peculiar
titles. (Despite the fact that not one, but three different people
wrote me to tell me they were quite certain that "calcination"
should be plural, not singular, if it was even a word. Oh yeah,
it's a word... just an archaic, alchemical one.)
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[> [> [> [> [> see...just another illustration
of how great this board is. Pure gold! -- Rahael, 05:59:29 11/10/01
Sat
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[> [> Fire from Heaven or Willow as Prometheus -- Rahael,
15:21:03 11/09/01 Fri
I'm sure that in the course of previous discussions about the
'Hero's Journey', Prometheus has come up - the hero who achieves
his apotheosis, and comes back to earth with a heavenly boon (albeit
stolen)
He steals fire from the Gods, for the sake of humanity, and is
punished for his selfless deed by being strung to a rock for eternity,
with an eagle eating his liver every day.
Now Buffy has already been identified with love/fire......and
she too has been snatched from heaven, by Willow, dabbling in
the matters of the Gods for the sake of her own human comfort.
The only problem with relating this to Buffy is that Willow is
not suffering torment (only Buffy).........yet.
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[> [> [> ah...just me then! -- Rahael, 06:39:54 11/12/01
Mon
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[> [> NO way should Buffy's revelation about heaven have
stayed hidden -- briseis, 15:54:28 11/09/01 Fri
"Hairy toes" can stay hidden. The deepest facts of your
experience can only stay hidden at the cost of being alienated
from all the people you hide them from. Also, how can Willow ever
learn about the effects of her actions if they are kept hidden
from her?
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[> [> [> Re: NO way should Buffy's revelation about heaven
have stayed hidden (mild Spoilers - 6th season)) -- Tillow, 07:52:33
11/10/01 Sat
Buffy's revelation about heaven, for example, should probably
have been kept hidden. For one, its only result is making the
rest of the SG feel awful for what they have done. Secrets that
make others feel worse when they are revealed are usually not
a good thing. Further, by telling her friends, it does not solve
anything. That comes along with the bad effects of this spell.
Xander and Anya's revelations about their doubts to each other?
That may have been a good thing. It's probably healthy to admit
your doubts to one another instead of keeping them hidden. These
are things that can be worked out, and discussed. A fall from
heaven is not.
Briseis,
I absolutely agree that Buffy's secret had to be revealed. This
was not a fall from heaven; Buffy was taken from heaven (or wherever
she was that she has come to remember as a good place or state
of being). Some of the people at the Bronze were responsible for
that and some were not. I agree with Rob that some people will
be hurt by this who were not responsible for bringing her back,
like Dawn. Dawn most likely already feels guilty for the fact
that Buffy died for her and now will have to grapple with the
fact that Buffy has been "expelled from heaven." But
it's about empathy and Dawn has proven that she can pull Buffy
through just like Spike. This new knowledge will help her love
Buffy, instead of turning away in the face of her 'frozen' sister.
I believe we will see Dawn and Spike help Buffy 'get her fire
back' in the next episode and who knows what will happen in Smashed.
With Willow, it is crucial to push her story along. Now Giles
and Tara have warned her of the effects of magick. In the first
three episodes, she worried until it seemed like there were no
consequences that couldn't be handled. Once Buffy chopped the
head off that demon, Willow relaxed. To GIles "I was amazing;
I did what no one else could do." Only by this secret coming
out would Willow see the consequences of her actions/addiction.
(Plus Tara finding out about the forget spell.)
As for the others... in just about every episode, they have been
talking about her coming out of hell. If they don't understand
her at all, how can they ever bridge the gap? They also will need
to understand the extent of Willow's problem/addiction and their
own roles as enablers.
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[> OMTwF - Death and the Slayer (Spoilers) -- RabidHarpy, 12:56:17
11/09/01 Fri
Some people seem to be suggesting that Buffy has some sort of
suicidal "death wish". I'm not so sure that I agree.
In Buffy's very first song, she clearly says:
"Will I stay this way forever?/ Sleepwalk through my life's
endeavour..." (Going Through the Motions)
She has already resigned herself to the fact that she is in for
the long-haul, or at least a long life...
"I can't even see/ If this is really me/And I just wanna
be/Alive!" (Going Through the Motions)
She expresses her desire to live, to continue, but with a sense
of renewal - she's tired of the old life - she needs change, some
sort of "spark" that will make this life that she seems
destined to live worth living...
"Why can't I feel?/My skin should crack and peel/I want the
fire back!" (Walk Through the Fire)
Can we assume that in "heaven", she felt more "alive"
than she ever has? Was it because she was finally complete and
had succeeded, not only in discovering her purpose, but fulfilling
it? Was it because she felt warmth, love, rest and peace?
How would you feel if you died twice and both times you returned
to exactly the same point you had just left? Buffy's moment of
clarity in "The Gift" answered the question as to her
purpose - after an epiphany like this, one would have thought
that she would have been ready to begin a completely new chapter
in her existence, (or be ready to move on to some sort of "nirvana").
One can compare it to playing a video game - once you've figured
out how to defeat the "big bad" and complete the level,
you expect to go on to the next one, only in this case, Buffy
is put right back where she left off - on the same "earthly"
level she thought she had completed. I don't at all blame her
for her frustration and depression!
The flippant way that Buffy shrugs off "Hey, I've died twice
", in "What Can't We Face" shows her resignation
to this life - she realizes that there is nothing to be done but
to continue to plod along, (remember, she's died before with the
same results - this is getting to be "old hat").
"To save the day/Or maybe melt away/I guess it's all the
same." (Walk Through the Fire)
She realizes that whether she "saves the day" or ends
up dying (melt away) again, she will end up returning to where
she had left off.
Later, when she is confronted by Sweet, she doesn't even have
to think twice about offering herself in Dawn's place, (even though
it means going to hell - she's been to heaven, and since she assumes
that she will come back from "the land of the dead"
again at some point, she's not concerned - at least hell would
be a "new" adventure - for a while). Sweet makes some
comment insinuating that he'll take delight in her death and she
shrugs this off as well with, "It won't help". Sweet
answers this comment with a cliche about life being a "miracle",
(a little throw-back to Buffy's joke to Giles about her return
as being "a miracle" in the Magic Box reunion).
At this point Buffy begins her song, (which incidentally lists
a ton of common cliches about life) - she already knows all those
songs - she begs for something NEW to sing about, but Sweet refuses
to help her. Even when Buffy breaks into the "wild"
dance, I believe that she is fully aware that she cannot be permanently
harmed -(even if she does instantaneously combust). For one thing,
all the Scoobies have arrived by this point - both Xander and
Willow have "resurrected" her in the past, so she has
no doubt that they will either intercede, or be the post-mortem
"clean-up" crew.
If you notice, Buffy's dance begins with definite, structured
choreography, but then it breaks away into undisciplined spinning.
This, to me, clearly shows her frustration - much like the little
"test" in the Magic Box (a microcosmic metaphor for
Buffy's entire existence thus far), where we noted her frustration
each time the scene looped - (to the point of her crushing Giles'
glasses and breaking down in tears) - Buffy's entire life seems
a continual "loop". She hasn't yet figured out that
she will eventually find a solution and be able to move forward,
as she did in the "test".
It is also interesting to note that Spike, the outsider, is the
one to intervene and provide words of renewal and hope. He has
not arrived with the SG, and is, after the seeming betrayal of
the resurrection events, no longer a part of them, (he has even
avoided Dawn, whom he was closest to, and who was innocent of
Willow's plans).
"Life isn't bliss/Life is just this - It's living/You'll
get along/The pain that you feel/Only can heal by living./Have
to go on living" (Play a Part)
Spike understands what Buffy is just learning - "have to
go on living". He has died and returned, (possibly numerous
times), and yet each time he returned, it was to the same world,
and with the same knowledge that he is a vampire and doomed to
all that entails, (ie. avoiding sunlight, preying on humans, living
in darkness....) Spike too has been in a 200 year loop - despite
the fact that he's lived dangerously and with the possibility
of death at every turn, and most notably, with the mundane repetition
of existence. Living just "is", (although in Spike's
case, it's more of an "existence" than a life) - that
is why he is drawn to Buffy - she is the something "new"
that is not only inspiring all of the sincere changes in his character
- something he had never tried before - but the "life"
in her, makes him feel renewed. Her life gives him a reason to
live, (or at least remember and try to emulate what life is).
"So one of us is living." (Play the Part)
I took this line to be another one of Spike's attempts to make
Buffy smile - a little "pun" if you will. He does not
hide from the fact that he is dead, (we saw him "vamp"
out for the first time this season, he calls her for whispering,
"in a dead man's ear", he's wearing the red shirt of
evil - lol!) He is reminding her that yes, he is a vampire and
different from her - he places himself in the category of her
nemesis, (being the Slayer and all), but also brings to her attention
the fact that they are not as different as she once assumed -
they are, in fact, equals of a sort. His tenderness lets her know
that he understands her frustration, and that he cares for her
and is available to share any knowledge he has with her in order
to help her cope - he will be there for her.
At this point, Sweet interrupts, (now that the final secret has
been revealed - the undeniable similarity between the Vampire
and the Slayer), and the SG once more breaks into song, not knowing
what to do - no one, not even Buffy seems to have the answer to
this question...
"Where do we go from here?/When does the end appear?/~Heh.
Bugger this.~" (Where Do We Go From Here)
I wonder whether it was intentional that Spike left at this point
in the song? He had just revealed to Buffy that "life is
just this - living", and here everyone is asking for some
sort of resolution, "when does the end appear?" Spike
already knows that there is no "end" for him, he's already
dead - he's already sung this song - so he leaves. Buffy realizes
a little later that this song has no meaning for her either -
she has "to go on living" too, so she joins Spike outside.
She tells him that she doesn't want to sing that same old song
anymore - she is ready to move on. As Buffy reiterates her feelings
of emptiness and how she feels she is "dead" inside,
Spike repeats how he died (literally) "so many years ago"
- and both join in the confession that they each just want to
"feel" (the implied next word is "alive" -
which neatly completes the arc-like framework of the musical which
began with Buffy's desire to be alive). Both Buffy and Spike share
the desire to feel alive.
"You can make me... But I just wanna... - Feel!" ( Walk
Through the Fire - Reprise)
Buffy, for a brief moment, surrenders to her need, (the exciting
possibilities of mouth-to-mouth contact with Spike, someone she
finds herself attracted to physically, and a companion who cares
for her and understands and supports her) - she leads the embrace.
Spike reciprocates, (love is what motivates him - even this meeting
of their bodies, though brief, is enough to thrill him, and with
their new understanding, and this small break in the wall between
them, there is hope, and a possibility of a deeper relationship
in the future).
Buffy allows for a deeper relationship with Spike while accepting
his support and friendship (?) Spike gives Buffy his heart and
receives her acceptance of his declarations of love and support
(?)
"Where do we go from here?" (Where Do We Go From Here?
- Reprise)
That remains to be seen... :)
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[> [> Re: Death Wishes and the Slayer (Spoilers) -- Aquitaine,
14:00:47 11/09/01 Fri
Great posts and great thread!
*** Some people seem to be suggesting that Buffy has some sort
of suicidal "death wish". I'm not so sure that I agree.
***
Now, I haven't seen OMwF yet (and won't 'til Saturday) and I only
fell off the spoiler-free wagon 2 days ago but I think I can still
venture to respond on this question of fire and death wish vs
suicide:)
First of all, let me say that while I don't believe that Buffy's
leap from the Tower in "The Gift" was entirely altrustic,
I never saw it as a suicide. There was something fatalistic about
her choice that was foreshadowed in the plotting of the series.
Remember how, back in S4, Fuffy's credit card had a 05/01 expiration
date? In Season 6, I now see Spike's death wish speech from FFL
in a slightly different light. It is one aspect or part of the
necessary balance between light and dark in the Buffyverse. In
order to survive and be effective, the Slayer must almost be a
neutral force, not neutral as in passive but neutral as in comprising
both a fierce 'fire' for life *and* a magnetic connection to death
as well. IMO, Buffy has systematically avoided committing to living
a normal life and rebelling against it. One thing she repeatedly
does do, however, is withdraw emotionally (Riley and Xander cited
her for this lack of passion in ITW). When Spike said slayers
have a death wish, I think he is referring to more than just the
compulsion to seek death, but the sheer *passion* that drives
slayers.
In many ways, Buffy is a stranger to herself. The cataclysmic
outcome of her relationship with Angel may have helped her paint
herself into a corner emotionally and it has taken a death and
rebirth (and Spike:p) to bring her back to the crux of her identity
and motivations. Insofar as this is true, Buffy needs to reconnect
with the people around her and build relationships that aren't
about the need to 'protect' (shielding her friends from the truth
or slaying demons to protect society at large) but about acceptance.
Curiously, perhaps because he is dead and 'gray' etc, Spike is
in a unique position to see Buffy's true colours but I think that
each member of the SG has the potential to connect with Buffy
in a more genuine manner (Xander seems to next closest at the
moment, Willow the furthest). I'm looking forward to seeing how
these relationships evolve onscreen in OMwF and in the future.
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> agree & disagree -- anom, 19:52:46 11/11/01 Sun
I was a little surprised to hear Buffy sing at the beginning that
she wanted to be alive. It seemed like that was just what she
didn't want, what she couldn't deal with. But I don't think that's
the same as a death wish--more of a heaven wish. When she goes
into the dance at the end of Play a Part, I'm not sure it's by
choice. She hesitated before telling them about having been in
heaven. She's reached the stage, where Sweet & Dawn sit, & she
pauses. He makes a hand gesture, curling his fingers, & then she
goes on to the "heaven" part of the song. To me it looks
as if Buffy is trying to resist, but Sweet reasserts his control,
which may still be in effect when she starts the wild, "macabre"
part of the danse. His shaking his head when she asks for something
to sing about may be another gesture of control, or her dance
may be her own reaction to it. True, she doesn't look horrified,
the way the 1st "customer who just went combustin'"
did. So my considered opinion is that I don't know.
But I do know I disagree about Buffy assuming that if she dies
again, her friends will just resurrect her again. (If she does,
she's wrong--no more urns of Osiris, even on eBay.) Not that that
would make it OK for her to die again--from what we've seen so
far this season, she wouldn't want them to resurrect her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> "supporting evidence" from dawn's
dance -- anom, 21:46:24 11/11/01 Sun
"When she [Buffy] goes into the dance at the end of Play
a Part, I'm not sure it's by choice."
Something else occurs to me. As Dawn tries to escape from the
Bronze, she passes the staircase at least twice. If she headed
up it, she might have a better chance of getting away--the banisters
would keep the puppet-minions from getting in front of her as
she ran. But she doesn't go that way. Is Sweet controlling her
dance, making her run where she can be intercepted? Does he do
the same w/Buffy's dance, in which case he's the one driving her
to the point of combustion? That would mean she's not self-destructing
by choice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Deconstructing OMwF (cont'd from Rob's below) -- bible
belt, 15:30:11 11/11/01 Sun
"I'd say Joss is weighing in with his intent: sacrifice."
I agree.
I still see a theme about suicide in there, but it is being dealt
with in an honest, compassionate way. The hardest thing to get
across to a teenager is that they still have their entire life
ahead of them, whereas, the hardest thing for a young adult to
deal with is to know that they have their entire life ahead of
them. No matter how bleak life seems, you have to, "walk
through the fire. A lesson to be learned." The scene in The
Gift works well for teenagers too because even though it was Buffy
that jumped (not a suicide but the point is being made) she turned
to her teenage sister and said, "the hardest thing about
this world is to live in it. Live for me." Kudos for Joss
and them to deal so responsibly.
I apologize if I'm just restating what everyone is saying, they're
great posts, I just wanted to sing my praises too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Deconstructing OMwF (cont'd from Rob's below) -- cat,
13:00:35 11/12/01 Mon
>>>Xander now knows, by concealing the information about
the necklace, what it is like to cause direct harm. Xander really
almost gets Dawn and Buffy killed. He has no excuse not to know
this, after the combustions are revealed. Will Xander understand
his lesson? I don't know.<<<
Hmmm, the whole Xander summoning the demon reminded me of the
way the villainous trio operate; the kind of naive "because
it would be cool" type of thinking. Xander may be able to
relate more to them than to Spike. Frankly, he acted with the
immaturity of a kid, but maybe this was his way of dealing with
the stress and reality of the fact that he is getting married
and settling down - taking on the full adult mantle which he doesn't
feel ready for.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Where do I go from here? LOL -- Rob, 09:35:59 11/13/01 Tue
Wow...I read everyone's responses. I am so glad everyone is posting
on this thread. This has been my most successful one I ever started!!
Yeah!! :) :)
But anyway, I have so much to say and no time at the moment to
say it, so I'll make this fast.
I also have a lot of people I want to respond to, but I don't
want to post scattered responses throughout the thread, b/c no
one'll read them!
So, basically, here are some of my ideas:
1) One person gave Buffy's "I just want to be alive"
line from "Going Through the Motions" as an argument
that she does not have a death wish. Personally, I don't think
that that means that she doesn't. At the end, I think it's very
clear that she wants to die, or at least sees dying as the only
way to solve her problems. At least for one, bright, shining moment
she will have her fire back. Of course, that fire will kill her.
Come to think of it, this reminds me a great deal of the musical,
"Pippin." Pippin spends his whole life trying to be
someone amazing, and to accomplish amazing goals, but just can't
seem to find his niche in the world. In the end, he is told what
he must do...Set himself in fire, and die in a blaze of glory.
For one moment, he will epitomize all the beauty and mystery of
the world. In the end, he decides he cannot do that: to settle
down and have a nice homelife with a wife and child who love him
is far more important. Buffy has a similar situation...She wants
to reclaim the fire of life. Yes, the dance would reclaim that,
but she would die soon after. Therefore, I think, she is conficted.
She does not care if she lives or dies. She just wants to feel.
If dying will bring her that, she welcomes it. Also, I think that
at the start of the episode, she wants to be alive, but by the
time we hear her sing "Walk Through the Fire," she views
that as an impossibility. She does not think she can ever be happy
again, and so chooses hell.
2) I think some people misunderstood what I meant when I said
that Buffy's revelation about heaven should have stayed hidden.
I did not mean that I think the writers shouldn't have revealed
it. In fact, I'm glad they did! For the sake of the story, that
was necessary. A secret that stays hidden will kill a story dead
in its tracks. And what is the point, narratively, to give a character
a secret and then never reveal it? No, I think it was great for
the story that the secret was revealed. What I meant was that
Buffy was right to want to hide this secret. Her friends brought
her back with the best of intentions. Telling them what they did
to her would solve nothing: It wouldn't bring her back to heaven,
and would only make her friends feel horrible about what they
had done. So I think Buffy was very mature, as she always is,
and wise when she decided not to tell them. In that respect, I
believe the secret should have stayed hidden. To protect your
friends, it is best not to tell them something that will only
hurt them. For the sake of the story, I am pleased as punch that
this was revealed. "Buffy" always works best when things
don't work out well for our main characters. It's ironic, but
true. These horrible things that shake up the relationships and
push them to the breaking points are what makes the show so special.
Not many other shows would test friendships as much as this one
has. In most shows, an argument would have been solved by the
end of the episode. Not so with this show. But I believe, in the
end, the SG's friendships will emerge stronger once the shock
of the revelations and their direct aftermaths have run out. They
have formed too strong a family to have it be permanently shattered.
And I wrote way too much, since I had no time, and still don't
LOL! I'm gonna go now...
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Where do I go from here? LOL -- WanderLost, 12:06:03
11/13/01 Tue
But, Rob, the Heaven revelation IS protecting them. Protecting
people isn't always about making them feel better. Willow NEEDS
to feel horrible. Not just to serve the story. Because she is
heading down a path that could get her killed. Or others. And
jarring her out of that by making her realize the magic she's
most proud of was an obscene screw-up will keep her safer, in
the long run, then letting her feel good about her good intentions(we
know where those lead).
Though I do agree, Buffy's motives were selfless, it was a secret
that needed to be told.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Where do I go from here? LOL -- Kimberly, 12:21:46
11/13/01 Tue
Thanks for this topic; it's been a real brain-stretcher. (And
isn't it great to have a TV show that leads to brain-stretching).
However, in the interest of debate, I'm going to play Devil's
Advocate on both of your numbered ideas:
1. As someone who has suffered from depression her entire adult
life (and has been effectively treated for it for the last six
years), Buffy's problem is anhedonia caused by depression. She
does want to feel; she just can't. Her clothing shows that there
is no color in her life; everything is gray. Her actions show
that there is no pleasure in her life; when I'm in the midst of
a bout, nothing is fun, nothing feels good, there is no pleasure.
However, she doesn't really want to die; she wants to live, to
feel. It will be interesting to see how she gets out of it. (Not
easily, I fear.)
2. "To protect your friends, it is best not to tell them
something that will only hurt them." I disagree. Buffy has
been angry and resentful of her friends ever since she was resurrected.
Until she tells them what has happened, she can't reconnect with
them and, I think, anyone else. Her friends now know why Buffy
has withdrawn from them and can begin to repair the damage done
to their friendships with her. I think that once that repair begins,
Buffy's depression may also ease. (Before everything is over,
she needs to have a really good screaming match with Willow and
Xander. And maybe Giles too.)
Again, great post, great thread, thank you for making my head
hurt. :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Where do I go from here? LOL -- Rob, 12:57:29
11/13/01 Tue
I've taken both of your points into consideration, and my brain
is hurting now also! LOL.
Where I was coming from was the psychological persepective of
the radio talk show host/psychiatrist Dr. Joy Brown. She says
over and over that a secret should be kept, if its coming out
will hurt other people, or, worse, destroy a friendship. A secret
of this magnitude has the possibility of destroying a friendship.
She says that if a secret is revealed, it should be done very
gently and the person should make every effort to see everyone's
side in the situation. For example, if you are telling a friend
that they hurt you, say, "I understand that you did not mean
to hurt me. In fact, you probably thought you were helping, but..."
Buffy was hurting. In many respects, I agree with you...she had
to tell her friends. Keeping this hidden was doing more harm than
good.
Perhaps then I think that if she had the option, and thought it
out, and had not been under the spell when she revealed the truth
to them, she should have gone about it differently. I understand
how hard it is for Buffy to realize it, but I really do believe
her friends had only the best intentions in resurrecting her.
The way she told them only made them feel bad. She scolds them
for not understanding that "once you've bowed/you leave the
crowd..." and that they denied her her right to be in heaven.
I think she should have made it clear to them that she understands
how pure their intentions were. She should have told them, "I
have to tell you the truth. I know that you thought you were doing
a good thing, and I really appreciate it. You thought you were
rescuing me from hell. But the truth is, I was happy. I am angry
at you for what you did, but at the same time I understand why
you did it..." or something to that effect.
I am not at all criticizing OMWF. As I said in my original post,
I think it was the best all-time episode. Further, I don't have
one problem with one thing that happened in the entire episode.
I completely understand Buffy's anger and why she revealed her
feelings the way she did. I'm glad that she revealed them, and
that the SG finally know just what they did. It will make for
a fascinating story...much more so than if she told them "gently."
Then there would have been less conflict, less huge emotions stirring.
Nothing ever runs smoothly in the Buffyverse, and it shouldn't
now.
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Where do I go from here? LOL -- Kimberly,
13:41:14 11/13/01 Tue
I completely agree that the WAY Buffy told the Scoobies was probably
the worst possible way for that revelation to have been said.
They believed that they were saving her from Hell; they had no
intention of ripping her out of Heaven. And to find out in the
way they did was probably almost as devastating to them as having
it done was to Buffy.
IMO, Buffy decided not to tell them not to spare their feelings
(although she probably believes that was the reason), but because
the inevitable emotional storm was too much for her to handle.
Which meant that when it did finally come out, it was going to
come out the way it did: in anger and pain, not with any attention
to the feelings of those receiving the revelation.
The older I get, the more I believe that secrets kill the closeness
in a relationship. Yes, sometimes secrets are necessary, but every
secret is a wedge. At the same time, the manner in which a secret
is revealed is important; to just blurt out something hurtful
does the relationship more harm than keeping the secret. So, I
agree with Dr. Brown; I just also believe that secrets are damaging.
Well, one thing's for sure; the brain cells are dying from nonuse,
just hurting from overuse. Thanks for the brain food (along with
spinach and blueberries.) LOL
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Where do I go from here? LOL -- bible belt, 17:04:38
11/13/01 Tue
I'm not sure where I stand on keeping a secret to protect your
friends. Not telling them in the beginning was admirable, but
then the secret became too much to bear. If concealing something
horrible leads to the destruction of the one doing the concealing
and that's a sacrifice they are willing to make for someone then
that's their choice. Sometimes being honest and blunt, while at
first may seem harsh and uncaring, can help move things along
in a positive direction.
I have to add, I thought Buffy was doing the same thing when she
told Spike she thought she was in Heaven, as she did for the SG,
because he thought he couldn't save her from Hell. Man! Willow
and Me really know are Slayer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS
for OMWF) -- Shaglio, 13:00:27 11/09/01
With all this talk about singing, I forgot to mention my favorite
line of the night:
"Master the crueller; tame the doughnut."
That Xander is such a kook!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Lol! (Spoilers) -- RH, 13:22:53 11/09/01 Fri
I liked Anya's response, too: "That's still funny sweetie..."
Sometime's you've just got to humour them!
I also liked Giles' line to Spike: "If I want your opinion...
I'll never want your opinion."
Ouch! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS for OMWF) -- mm,
13:36:17 11/09/01 Fri
Master the crueller; tame the doughnut."
Was that a reference to the movie Magnolia, namely an unprintable
line by Tom Cruise's macho-guru character? If so, it should be
"Respect the crueller," but that's immediately what
sprang to mind. (It may or may not be worth noting that Magnolia
also includes a group-singalong scene, to Aimee Mann's "Wise
Up.")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS for OMWF)
-- Shaglio, 13:52:31 11/09/01 Fri
Magnolia was a really strange movie. The first time I saw it,
I thought, "what the hell was that!?!?!" But after seeing
it a second time, I realized how much I liked it.
Of course, having Julianne Moore in it didn't hurt either ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> My Favorite line of the night !(SPOILERS for
OMWF) -- SingedCat, 18:35:56 11/09/01 Fri
It's no contest--
"Buffy needs backup! Anya--Tara--"
("Ooooooooooo, Ooooooooooooo....")
I almost missed the rest of the episode, I was choking. :D
Oh, and, "I was able to examine the body while the police
were taking witness arias."
I mean, how can Tony Head deliver Joss Whedon's lines without
completely falling apart? He's English, is all I can figure.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> He does say respect the cruller, I think --
JodithGrace, 21:00:11 11/11/01 Sun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Mine is: "And what's with all the carrots?/What do
they need/Such good eyesight for anyway?" -- rowan, 13:52:18
11/09/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Facing it somehow / She's not even half the girl she.. Oooow!
-- CaptainPugwash, 16:03:39 11/09/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I'll take (*SPOILERS*)... -- A8, 16:24:48 11/09/01 Fri
Buffy's line about not quaking in her "stylish yet affordable
shoes" followed by the whole situation not being "all
hugs and puppies."
Honorable mention to Willow's "I think this line's mostly
filler."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: I'll take (*SPOILERS*)... -- pagangodess, 18:53:00
11/09/01 Fri
I believe the line was "stylish, yet ill-affordable boots",
A8 :)
"the day you do decide what you want, there'll probably be
a parade, 76 bloody trombones" by Spike is one of my favs,
there are too many to settle for just one.
:) pagangodess
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Corrected, I humbly stand.;-) -- A8, 19:07:52
11/09/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: I'll take (*SPOILERS*)... -- Solitude1056,
21:18:31 11/09/01 Fri
hm. the line as I heard it was "stylish yet affordable"
... guess we'll have to see, when the transcript gets posted.
and I agree about spike's line re the trombones!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: I'll take (*SPOILERS*)... -- d'Herblay,
21:42:18 11/09/01 Fri
From the shooting script: "stylish, yet affordable boots."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS for OMWF) -- Kimberly,
20:03:55 11/09/01 Fri
"I gave birth to a pterodactyl." "Did it sing?"
"It's not just us."
Too many to choose just one; most of the better ones are already
chosen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS for OMWF) -- JBone,
20:36:18 11/09/01 Fri
While I was working very hard at work, I was downloading some
of the mp3's off of psyche's site for the musical. I was playing
the Let it Burn song for our secretary who humors me when I talk
about Buffy. When Spike part came up she asked, "Who's that?"
I answered, that's Spike. Then the line 'I'm free if that bitch
dies/I better help her out' came out.
She laughed, "He's got problems doesn't he?" Yes he
does. She also got a tickle out of the 'First, I'll kill her,
then I'll save her' lyrics.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I've gotta go with "Get your kum-ba-yayas out."
I never understood that song. -- Deeva, 00:09:33 11/10/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: I've gotta go with "Get your kum-ba-yayas
out." I never understood that song. -- Cactus Watcher, 11:33:09
11/10/01 Sat
That song hasn't aged very well, has it? Back in the 50's when
Harry Belafonte was singing it, it was great. A decade later it
was being sung an octave higher and with no semblance of the original
feeling by every folk singing wanna-be. Pretty much became the
we-a'int-got-a-clue-but-we-still-wanna-sing-folk anthem. The other
overworked sing-along song of the era, Michael Row the Boat Ashore,
held up better. But, I could stand to wait another ten years,
before I hear it again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: I've gotta go with "Get your kum-ba-yayas
out." I never understood that song. -- Rattletrap, 20:16:45
11/10/01 Sat
That line was a pretty nifty double-shot pop culture ref. To the
uinitiated "Get Yer Ya-Yas Out" was a Rolling Stones
album, roughly early '70s I think, but I'm not sure. I think I
find Spike referencing Kumbaya more far-fetched than him referencing
the Stones :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: I've gotta go with "Get your kum-ba-yayas
out." I never understood that song. -- anom, 18:25:23 11/11/01
Sun
"I think I find Spike referencing Kumbaya more far-fetched
than him referencing the Stones"
I don't find it at all farfetched for him to refer to it in a
derogatory way.
And yeah, that was a great line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS for OMWF) -- Tillow,
07:01:53 11/10/01 Sat
I liked just about everything Anya said... but I loved Spike declaring
his boundaries followed by the "So, you're not staying, then?"
*Honorable mention* to "Strong. Someday you'll be a real
boy."
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS for OMWF) -- Wynn,
07:02:56 11/10/01 Sat
I liked the line Spike says to a fleeing Buffy after his song-
"So does this mean you're not going to stay?" I also
liked Giles witness aria comment, and when Sweet says to Buffy
"That's gloomy" after his death threat doesn't faze
her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: It wasn't really a line but you could hear her say it...
-- bible belt, 12:16:41 11/11/01 Sun
When Anya taps giles on the shoulder, "there, there."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: It wasn't really a line but you could hear her
say it... -- mm, 13:01:46 11/11/01 Sun
When Anya taps giles on the shoulder, "there, there."
A beautiful example of why so many of us love the show.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Favorite line of the night (SPOILERS for OMWF) -- Isabel,
16:33:02 11/11/01 Sun
There's so many, but what makes me chuckle every time is:
Xander: You're the cutest of the Scoobies/With your lips as red
as Rubies/And your firm and supple ... tight embrace!
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classic Movie of the Week - November
9th 2001 -- OnM, 23:29:15 11/09/01 Fri
*******
As one character in Boys In The Band (Crowley, 1968) aptly puts
it, "Pardon me if your sense of art is offended, but odd
as it may seem there wasn't a Shubert Theatre in Hot Coffee, Mississippi!"
*******
All my life I wanted to be somebody, but I see now that I should
have been more specific
............ Lily Tomlin
*******
We swell about in a vortex of beastliness.
............ Noel Coward
*******
I don't think too many people are going to come and see this musical.
Why do you say that, Little Sally? Don't you think people want
to be told that their way of life is unsustainable?
............ an exchange between Officer Lockstock and Little
Sally in the off-Broadway play Urinetown
*******
Listening to you I get the music / Gazing at you I get the heat.
Following you I climb the mountain / I get excitement at your
feet Right behind you I see the millions / On you I see the glory.
From you I get opinions / From you I get the story.
............ Pete Townshend
*******
Nothing succeeds like excess, and certainly movie musicals present
a great opportunity for cinematic excess to occur.
I mean, the fundamental priciple of a musical is ridiculous in
and of itself. Just how many times here in the real world do people
spontaneously break into song, and what's more, spout lyrics that
range from the banal to the poetic, possibly within the very same
stanza?
It isn't just one simple song, either. A musical is traditionally
composed of a series of songs, thematically connected to one another,
establishing additional layers of meaning and intent, just like
chapters in a book, and organized in the same flexible manner.
The telling of these musical parables goes way back to at least
the time of the ancient Greeks and Romans, who were known to include
songs in many of their stage comedies and tragedies. In the Middle
Ages and later, minstrels and other roving bands of entertainers
put on plays that utilized not only their own original compositions,
but also the popular songs of the day, re-written to suit the
particular plot as needed. Regardless of the specific historical
times in which they actually took place, these fables could be
either very traditional or very avant-garde, with the music contained
therein acting synergistically with the spoken word to either
lull or inflame the passions of the audience.
So why do we like them so much? I must confess that I haven't
the foggiest, although of course I can offer some reasonable theories,
the first one of which is that we like them precisely because
they are disconnected from reality, much like a cartoon. Reality
gets to be a serious burden, and taking a legal trip away from
it is a pretty good mini-vacation from whatever happens to be
getting in your face at the moment. A little song, a little dance,
a little seltzer down the pants or maybe coyote + anvil + roadrunner
= flat coyote. This assiduous appreciation of the absurd may very
well be one of those defining characteristics that draws a line
in the mulch seperating us from the rest of the planetary fauna.
Additionally, there is the theory that music is some order of
collective, primal human language, existing before and ultimately
reaching beyond the limited scope of mere spoken communication
and touching something of the soul within. The Jossverse appears
to entertain this concept, or else why create a character who
reads 'auras' and divines the intent of the subconscious after
hearing someone sing? Do we give away our true intentions when
we choose what music moves us? Perhaps so.
Finally, for the purposes of this humble column, anyway, we get
to the musical as a form of political or social commentary. As
mentioned previously, this use has a long historical track record,
since just as with the 20th Century creation of cartoons or comic
strips, wrapping a dissociative technique around the often unpleasant
truth to be conveyed helps in getting the intended message across
without getting the audience too riled at being made the object
of the lesson.
This latter interpretation is most assuredly the primary one intended
by the director of this week's Classic Movie, a man whose best
known cinematic raison d'etre is to start out by going over the
top, and then go a bit further just for good measure. The film
itself is not one that you should try to overly analyse, because
frankly there is little point in analyzing the obvious-- this
is the whack-'em-over-the-head-with-it but make-it-incredibly-stylish-while-you're-doing-so
variety of filmmaking. You need to simply sit back in your chair,
and let everything just wash over you. This film revels and rejoices
in its indulgences, and makes not the slightest of apologies for
them. It brings to the screen a number of talented and seasoned
members of the acting community, and juxtaposes their finely-honed
craft with the work of a number of rank amateurs, and invites
you to go ahead and point accusing fingers at the audacity. Considering
that it was made in a day and age well before the advent of CGI
and other advanced means of creating visually astonishing images,
what the costume personell and art directors manage to envision
and then realize is astounding. This film is pretentious, oh yes
indeed, but it rocks!
So, without further ado (and we do ado, but it's all for you that
we ado what we do), your humble movie-man presents for your greater
tripping pleasure, Ken Russell's take on Pete Townshend and The
Who's freaky but undeniably brilliant 'rock opera', Tommy.
Released in 1975, Russell brought his long time fascination with
musicians both classical and contemporary to the big screen in
honor of what he referred to as 'the greatest work of art of the
twentieth century'. Yes, he was referring to Townshend's Tommy,
and no, I have no idea if he was kidding. I might not give the
work quite that many points, but it did start a number of interesting
musical trends after effectively shattering the myth that the
rock music genre could never sustain a longer form and retain
coherency or greater meaning while doing so. I still clearly remember
it debuting in the golden days of the 60's just before AM radio
was starting to lose ground to FM in the pursuit of a greater
audience, and unbelievably enough, you could find your local AM
deejays actually wielding enough power to get the station to play
an hour-and-a-half long piece of contempory music interrupted
only with the mandatory FCC station ID's on the half hour. It
was a wild and at least momentarily free-thinking time in modern
American history, and in the passage of time since that period,
it still holds up pretty decently.
A couple of notable items: Of the experienced actors on display,
take special note of Ann-Margret (Tommy's mother), who gives a
truly dazzling performance in a role that calls for her to have
moments both great and absurd, including the one where she gets
to roll around on the floor of a lavishly appointed room in an
ostentatious mansion, wallowing in a flood of soapsuds, baked
beans, and mud, a comment on conspicuous consumption as only Ken
Russell could envision it. Ann-Margret is in fact the primary
glue that holds the whole extravaganza together, serving as the
emotional anchor for her son as he travels the 'amazing journey'
of the deaf, dumb and blind pinball wizard who awakes from his
sensory 'deprivation' and becomes a messiah.
Credit is also due to Roger Daltrey, who as I recall had no acting
experience to speak of before playing the title role, but nonetheless
does a fairly credible job under challenging circumstances. Besides
the other band members of The Who, some folks who pop into view
include Eric Clapton (as 'The Preacher', no doubt a lampoon/homage
to the 'Clapton is God' following), Elton John, who plays Tommy's
pinball wizard rival in yet another visually absurd yet compelling
scene, and a still very young Tina Turner as 'The Acid Queen'
who gets very freaky on us.
I don't know how many of ya'all are of a ripe enough age to have
actually been young when Tommy (the album) first came to be in
the 60's, and of those who were, some of you may feel that Russell's
later filmic treatment of the work didn't do it justice, or took
a wrong turn at the beginning and never got back on the road.
There is no question that it doesn't follow the main highway,
but that was part of what the decade was about, taking the chance
on the road less traveled. I recall just about two weeks ago when
someone on the Cross & Stake board posited that 'Once More, With
Feeling' would either suck big time, or be stunningly brilliant.
So be it.
E. Pluribus Cinema, Unum,
OnM
*******
Technically Loud, Vociferous and Farsighted:
Tommy is available on DVD, according to the Internet Movie Database.
The review copy was (again!) on an old Beta videotape from my
collection, very likely off some pay cable source, the specifics
lost in the mists of time, like my brain. The film was released
in 1975, running time is 1 hour and 48 minutes. Writing credits
go to Pete Townshend (music) and Ken Russell (screenplay).
This movie was the first, and also possibly the last to be released
in 'Quintophonic Sound', an early discrete multi-channel movie
sound system. The 'quadrophonic', or 4-channel stereo era of the
70's was a flop in the consumer electronics marketplace, for a
variety of reasons such as competing and incompatible hardware/software
systems, but the public's loss was the movie industry's gain as
multichannel took root in Hollywood, and grew steadily until the
'home theater' boom of the early to middle 90's. What goes around...
Cast overview:
Ann-Margret .... Nora Walker Hobbs Oliver Reed .... Frank Hobbs
Roger Daltrey .... Tommy Walker Elton John .... Pinball Wizard
Eric Clapton .... Preacher John Entwistle .... Himself Keith Moon
.... Uncle Ernie Paul Nicholas .... Cousin Kevin Jack Nicholson
.... A. Quackson, Mental Health Specialist Robert Powell ....
Group-Captain Walker Pete Townshend .... Himself Tina Turner ....
Acid Queen Arthur Brown .... The Priest Victoria Russell ....
Sally Simpson Ben Aris .... Reverend A. Simpson. V.C.
*******
Miscellaneous und das 'Question of the Week':
Still didn't get my copy of Shrek yet, but I have gotten a chance
to see at least some of Final Fantasy, which I had obtained the
DVD of last week. Lotsa extra material with this disc, haven't
gotten to it all yet, but seems pretty interesting. The commentary
track on the main disc (there are two in the set) is in Japanese,
with subtitles, which I think is a first, at least for me. They
seem to spend a lot of time saying 'that scene was really hard'
and 'don't really like the lighting on that one' and 'that one
took four months to do' and so on, interspersed with quite a bit
of laughing. Not sure if they were stoned when they did the commentary,
or when they made the movie. Oh, well... not a brilliant flick
dialog-and-plot-wise, but very serious eye candy for CGI fans--
certainly worth several viewings, there is just so much detail
that you can't possibly appreciate in just one run-through. I'm
wondering just how realistic the next iteration of the estimable
Dr. Aki will be? Definitely a big time hummmm... there.
The Question:
When you watch a musical, do you tend to forgive weak acting if
the music is really good? Suppose the reverse was true?
*******
If I told you what it takes To reach the highest high You'd laugh
and say Nothing's that simple But you've been told many times
before Messiahs pointed to the door No one had the guts to leave
the temple
*******
Take care, folks. See you next week!
*******
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the
Week - November 9th 2001 -- Humanitas, 07:20:46 11/10/01 Sat
I discovered Tommy when I was in high school, and probably could
still sing along with it as it plays. Great music. I never saw
the film, though. Perhaps now I'll check it out. Thanks as always,
OnM!
As for the QotW, it depends on what you mean by 'forgive.' If
the acting is weak, but the music is terrific, I might buy the
album, but I'll never watch the show again. On the other hand,
if the music is a little weak, but the acting is terrific, I'll
probably love the show anyway. That's what I'm doing with SMG
in OMWF, by the way. My opinion is that her singing is a little
weak, but boy, can she sell a song! The same principle applies
to most "specialty skills," dialect, fighting, singing,
etc. If Costner could act, nobody would have noticed the fact
that he had no accent in Robin Hood. If the intention is clear
and believable, everything else is gravy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - November 9th 2001 -- mundusmundi,
08:31:24 11/10/01 Sat
Hmmm, weak acting and good music? Sounds like Remember the Titans,
the "inspirational" Denzel Washington football movie
I saw last night, with its connect-the-dots screenplay and every
cliche in the book. Wretched flick, but the wall-to-wall 70's
soundtrack kept me from ejecting the tape and watching Murder
at 1600.
Regarding actual musicals, I think bad acting can sink a good
number, since ideally in a musical there is supposed to be a story
coming across. On the other hand, good acting -- or what may be
deemed gusto -- can make up for not the best singing. Nick Brendon
case in point. SingedCat above nailed my own assessment of his
performance by mentioning how nobody in the cast did more with
less than Brendon. Of course it helps to have a director who knows
your strengths and limitations. Had Joss produced a big emotional
Xander/Willow power ballad, it's safe to say we'd have all been
hiding under our pillows.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - November 9th 2001 -- Aquitaine,
08:34:46 11/10/01 Sat
Good review, as usual.
When you watch a musical, do you tend to forgive weak acting if
the music is really good? Suppose the reverse was true?
Well... I expect the actors to act their songs so I don't think
the acting and singing are separable. Hmmm. I also definitely
don't think an actor needs a good voice to sing in a musical and
I don't think a good singer can act well to bad music. Er, not
sure that answers the question but it's the best I can do on a
rainy Saturday am:)
I got a chance to see "Final Fantasy" this week. It
was entrancing to watch (almost hypnotic) despite, or perhaps
because of, its forgettable storyline.
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - November 9th 2001 -- Shiver,
17:27:05 11/10/01 Sat
Never saw the movie, but did see Tommy on Broadway ... a very
good show.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - November 9th 2001 -- Neaux,
19:08:47 11/10/01 Sat
The hatred of Musical Animation... Disney flicks suck.
Probably why I love anime. Animated movies without the lowsy bursting
into song. Probably why I like Final Fantasy too.
So why did I like OMWF? Cuz the singing had a purpose and I'm
a Buffy fan dammit!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - November 9th 2001 -- Isabel,
17:37:01 11/11/01 Sun
A friend once told me that her parents sent her to see it (alone)
to get her out of the house one rainy day, "Because it was
a movie about a handicapped boy." She says that 'Tommy' can
be quite traumatic to a 10 year old.
"When you watch a musical, do you tend to forgive weak acting
if the music is really good? Suppose the reverse was true?"
Tricky. I'd have to say yes and no.
I can name musicals with catchy songs that I've loved and the
acting was, hmm... melodramatic and over the top. (Or just not
real.) (Hello Dolly, Oklahoma!, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers,
Anything with the Muppets)
I was hung up on the good acting, poor singing (music) until I
remembered 'Camelot' and 'Guys and Dolls.' I was in Camelot in
high school, my sister was in Guys and Dolls. I love the musicals
but I CAN'T watch the movies. It's Vanessa Redgrave and Marlon
Brando. They can't sing. And in Camelot, they turned "The
Month of May," a perky little ditty about spring fever and
youth, into an atonal, sex-kitten dirge. Redgrave and Brando are
good actors, but the casting directors who hired them for their
names should have been shot. It's not like there isn't a plethora
of actors who can sing in Hollywood. (Or hire real singers and
dub 'em.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - November 9th 2001 -- Javoher,
19:27:13 11/11/01 Sun
"When you watch a musical, do you tend to forgive weak acting
if the music is really good? Suppose the reverse was true?"
Sure I do. I could watch a poorly acted West Side Story any day
of the week. Most musicals (apologies to Leonard Bernstein) are
fairly rigid in form. Because the song is the primary vehicle
for explaining what's actually going on it makes up for any action
and dialogue problems which are secondary vehicles, if the singers
can sell the songs well.
The opposite? Nope. See humble opinion above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Review of the musical numbers
(con't from below--no spoilers) -- SingedCat, 05:46:27 11/10/01
Sat
First, an apology (in the old "clarify" sense of the
word):
I've been singing most of my life (a *lot* longer than I've been
professional) I've always been harder to impress on that count,
so when I tuned in to Buffy this week I kept my expectations of
the musical pretty low. First, I really agree that although they
weren't professional singers, that the episode was wonderful,
because I love musicals, and because it somehow brought a world
that has become real to us to another level--I've always fantasized
about living in a musical, just for awhile. :D I finished this
episode with a feeling of deep gratitude to Joss and the entire
cast.
Now let me let the dispassionate professional out of the box.
In terms of singing ability, I'd rank them
Hinton Battle ASH Amber Benson
-------------
Sarah Michelle Emma Caulfield James Marsters Michelle Trachtenberg
Nick & Aly
I put ASH, Benson and Battle in a different category becuase they've
all had vocal training. Hinton had an easier job-- performing
alone, he could be as excellent as he wanted, and with his small
part still almost stole the show. ASH, a West End veteran, did
a beautiful job of not upstaging the rest of the cast, aided perhaps
by his isolating role of pater familiis. His voice is well-suited
to his powerful ballad, a rock opera number that shows off his
vocal ability while turning SMG's training visuals into a poetic
slow-mo backdrop. Of the cast, Benson had the best female voice,
but was still a little variable in fullness of tone-- I could
hear that she was capable of good volume, with fullness and good
vibrato control in the long high notes-- very important-- but
the verses were still kind of thin-sounding. I think she just
needs a little more confidence to relax and open up her throat--nothing
some practice and a beer just before performing wouldn't fix.
(In my case, anyway...:D) Sarah Michelle is obviously the one
who worked hardest, no mystery to those on the set who are constantly
astounded by her amazing work ethic. Not a trained singer, and
faced with a huge vocal job, she kept it simple in terms of quality
and stress, opting for a pure stage voice, an almost choirboy
sound that allowed her to hit and hold all the notes without putting
too much strain on her voice. At its best she has a broadway sound,
as in the opening number(clearly her best), at the least it is
unimpassioned and unspectacular, but efficient; one gets the sense
that is the least she would expect from herself. James Marsters
of course underdelivered for my expectations (I knew he sang in
a band), but I watched again, and have an idea it may have been
direction. I think he was vocally going for a very alternative,
Stone Temple Pilots kind of sound that just plain clashed stylewise
with the rest of the musical. (NOT that I think it should have
been different-- I like the choice) I think that clash showed
up the harshness of his voice more than expected. I also think
he was directed to underplay his number, to blend with Buffy's
burdened attitude. In general I thought it could have worked better,
but still brought the message home--Joss's lyrics as usual struck
to the heart of Spike's unfortunely insightful character.
About Michelle and Aly I can't say much-- MT was far les comfortable
singing than she was dancing, and Hannigan, the most striking
absentee, did what's called speak-singing, in which you use your
talking voice to hit the notes. As such, it would have failed
to blend at all with Benson's lovely vocals, and rather than try,
I applaud their decision to go for the simpler solution and better
sound. A seperate comment on Amber's song-- I felt it had a very
Kate Bush "The Kick Inside" sound, fairlylike, and well-suited
to Amber's voice.
The award for doing the most with the least certainly goes to
Nick Brendan. Emma Caulfield, a good untrained singer, didn't
seem to mind underplaying her abilities to blend seamlessly with
her partner. Whedon wisely assigned them bouncy parts with easy-to-sing
short notes and an upbeat tempo. They became the classic big number
of the show, contrasting their staccato, whipsawing gripes and
affectionate dancing (What they say vs. what they feel) into the
embodiment of the 40's cheerfully bickering comedic couple.
Hinton Battle -- I will try very hard not to gush here. To direct
his nefarious musical, Whedon ordered someone straight off the
New York stage whose whole business is what you saw, and well-suited
to his part-- perceptive, polished, predatory--oozing with Bob
Fosse's charm, cruelty, and confident, understated moves. As a
broadway performer he *is* the musical, defining the entire episode
with our moral love-hate relationship with falsehood-- its necessity,
its treachery, and its awful beauty.
I'll end here with a personal refernce, and a PSA. I loved Broadway
growing up, and am further grateful to Joss for bringing such
a good representation of it to his audience. It makes me want
to see a show! Speaking of which, why don't we all do our part
for NYC these days, and make the effort...? Support the arts in
New York, if you live close by! www.newyorker.com, check the show
listings and go!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Wonderful post. Thanks! -- mundusmundi, 07:53:34 11/10/01
Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Review of the musical numbers (con't from below--no
spoilers) -- Humanitas, 07:55:06 11/10/01 Sat
Thinking about JM's number...
When I first saw the episode on Tuesday night, I was seriously
underwhelmed with "Rest In Peace." It didn't have the
rock-n'-roll punch that the ads had let me to expect. I felt (and
I said this in chat, I think) that it had been mixed wrongly for
the style. It seemed to me at the time like there should have
been more guitar to capture Spike's character. Instead, it seemed
like they went for emphasizing the vocals, instead. Usually, I
appreciate that, since I'm essentailly a word-guy, rather than
a music-guy, but it seemed wrong in this case.
Since then, I've been listening to the music alone, downloaded
from Psyche, and the song has been sounding better and better.
I'm not sure if it was a case of expectations not being fulfilled,
or what, but I like the song much better now than I did on Tuesday
night. >sigh< I guess I'll just have to go back and watch
it again to see. ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (con't from below--no
spoilers) -- mundusmundi, 08:19:04 11/10/01 Sat
It's growing on me too. Spike's song is also important because
it marks a transition from the sweet and/or funny songs in the
first half of the episode to the darker, more serious tone that
follows. I have a friend, who has been seriously bugged by Spike's
changes the last couple years, who flat-out loves the song. "Now
I get it!" he said. It's his favorite.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (con't from
below--no spoilers) -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 08:31:58 11/10/01
Sat
The lyrics for Spike's song are fantastic and (like you said,
mm) so is its placement in the episode.
For me it was a bit disappointing the first time round because
JM has to put on Spike's accent - I think this might be what makes
his voice sound harsh in places - but it has grown on me too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (con't
from below--no spoilers) -- CaptainPugwash, 05:39:19 11/11/01
Sun
As a song about unrequited feeling (and torment), it takes some
beating.
I'm glad it wasn't heavy-handed rock, Spike had so much to say
(it was half protest/half serenade) to Buffy, and it tied in with
his touching response to Buffy's rage (written all over her face,
great stuff) at the end.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (con't from below--no
spoilers) -- grifter, 09:18:35 11/10/01 Sat
exactly what I thought...where´s the badass rock-sound from
the trailer??
but the more I listen to it, the more it grows on more...really
good song...
I´m watching the epsiode and listening to the mp3´s
waaaay to much right now, and the more I listen to them, the better
they seem to get ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The problem with the mix -- Rattletrap, 05:26:49 11/11/01
Sun
You're partly right, Hum, about the mix lacking the necessary
rock punch, with the vocals too far out in front. Part of the
problem is television: Rock music relies very heavily on bass
and drums. On a CD player, even more at a live performance, you
feel them as much as you hear them. On TV, however, you can't
mix really bass heavy sounds because a fairly large number of
people in your audience are still listening through a small, mono
TV speaker that doesn't capture the bass very effectively. In
that situation the bass part and the kick drum usually come across
as annoying clicking sounds in the same frequency range as dialogue.
As a result, you can't pull them out too much in the mix. Notice
that all of the promos of JM's song lacked vocals, so the music
had a little more punch than it did in the actual performance.
The other thing that would help with that song, is not watching
the screen, because there is a disconnect between JM's motions
and the voice/song that just doesn't work. As someone pointed
out earlier, the same is partly true of Giles's song to Buffy
which always looks more like a music video than a musical to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The problem with the mix -- Cactus Watcher,
07:15:55 11/11/01 Sun
Music video. That's exactly what I thought when I first saw Spike's
number Rest in Peace, which is why the fight at the funeral scene
doesn't bother me. It's not real. Funerals aren't held at night,
and Spike can't go out in the day. It's that music video dream-state.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Review of the musical numbers (Spoilers) -- Javoher,
11:29:53 11/10/01 Sat
Hinton was fascinating! I was mesmerized by his dance and the
terrific stage quality of his voice. I am now deeply in love yet
again and will keep an eye out for him even though I'm a 5 hour
plane ride away from New York. And it's really difficult to have
someone who's in a different caliber not show up the regulars.
Good move on Joss' part to keep Hinton limited to just the one
song and dance with MT, one that was designed in part to show
the age differences between them.
"James Marsters of course underdelivered for my expectations
(I knew he sang in a band), but I watched again, and have an idea
it may have been direction."
I was thinking that. Part of my fun with this show is to watch
professional creative people work their magic, and JM's approach
to this episode didn't quite fit for me either. At first I was
disappointed his voice mostly didn't live up to the power of the
lyrics, but I've listened a few times now and when I don't watch
the screen but just listen to him the songs work better. It could
be the editing. There's a disconnect between his on-screen motions
and his over-dubbed vocals (also with ASH's in the scene with
Buffy). He also could have been going for a very natural, everyday
kind of voice. The kind we non-singers all have when we sing along
in the car. That fits well with the idea of ordinary voices under
a spell beginning to sing their thoughts and emotions.
I also liked SMG very much in this episode, more each time I watch
her. I can hear in her voice the short amount of time she has
spent developing it from some of her vowels and soft consonants,
but she did wonderfully putting the right emotion into it. And
while I didn't like her choreography it got the unconnection and
suicide ideas across.
NB and EC were really funny. I don't care if they aren't trained
singers or dancers, they were great together. I could watch that
duet over and over.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (Spoilers) -- Nina,
15:28:20 11/10/01 Sat
I read a lot of comments about people comparing or complaining
about the quality of the voices in the musical (not only on this
thread, but I'll comment on it here as it fits! ;) . It really
puzzles me how so many people were expecting either so much or
nothing out of it.
The problem with musicals is that we all heard tons of them. We
all heard the leading lady, the leading man burst into song and
have wonderful voices (ie: Natalie Wood singing "Tonight,
tonight" comes to mind). In musicals everybody sings well.
No constrats, they are all good. Some a little better than others,
but they are all up there in the "good quality voice"
standarts we all expect.
Now when JW starts to write a musical we think that the cast has
to become what they are not to please our trained ears. They have
to have that singing and pleasing voice we want to hear! That's
where Joss doesn't go. From the start we are not in a real musical.
In real musicals characters don't know they are singing. They
do it unaware of what they are doing. In OMWT all the characters
know that singing is not normal. They are forced into songs with
their own voices! Not a broadway-like voice, but Xander's voice
and Anya's voice and Spike's etc...
If we were all brought into songs here on the board we would have
all different voices and it's what happened with Buffy's cast.
Xander sang like Xander.... I for once would have been disappointed
to hear Xander have a wonderful voice. I don't imagine him having
one and the voice I heard was perfect for Xander. Same thing with
Spike. It was not JM performing at 14 bellow but Spike singing
like Spike (and from what we've heard in season 3 it wasn't THE
voice then... so it couldn't be THE voice now either) It's obvious
that Spike was underplayed vocaly and on purpose. JW said in the
Bronze that "it was too high for James"... so if he
knew it was too high and he kept the song as high as it was it
was because he was looking for effect. When you sing in the highest
part of your register you are under tension and that's how Spike
felt in his song. He was under a lot of tension. Be it sexual
tension, emotional tension or whatever... ASH also has a part
when he sing "is my slayer too far gone to care" where
he is in the lower part of his register and makes the whole line
even more touching and poignant!
Personaly I am amazed that JW didn't go for a real musical where
everyone would have performed perfectly (anyway he could never
have done it with the buget he had!). He managed to respect each
character's personality. We already knew that Giles could sing
(not ASH, but Giles) and when forced to make Willow not sing (as
AH couldn't) he managed to make it work into the script. Chapeau!
Big Bravo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (Spoilers)
-- JBone, 20:39:05 11/10/01 Sat
I read a lot of comments about people comparing or complaining
about the quality of the voices in the musical (not only on this
thread, but I'll comment on it here as it fits! ;) . It really
puzzles me how so many people were expecting either so much or
nothing out of it.
First of all, I don't really see anything wrong with comparing
voices. We compare damn near every other imaginable aspect on
the show on this board, why not singing voices. Secondly, I haven't
read every thread, but I really don't remember very much complaining.
On the contrary, even when someone points out what they conceive
to be flaws, they almost always say it was a good job anyway.
Or that the performance has grown on them throughout their multiple
viewings.
I also believe that the fact that the cast used their own voices
has brought about much praise. At least they did their own work
kind of stuff. Let's see other shows do that anywhere near as
well. Our favorite show did something that almost no other show
on tv can pull off, and it was with their own voices.
Like I said earlier I haven't read every thread. And since OMwF
is the second coming of Restless with 30 times the posters, there
are bound to be many a varied opinion. But I take some pride in
the board that I visit first and most often. These are, overall,
the most educated, reasoned out opinions you can find on any Buffy
board (my drunken ramblings excluded.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (Spoilers)
-- Aquitaine, 15:30:45 11/11/01 Sun
I agree with you, Nina. What I enjoyed about the episode was the
emotional punch that the songs packed. In fact, the songs I least
enjoyed were Sweet's because, despite Hinton Battle's considerable
talents, I didn't *feel* anything for his character. On the whole,
the episode felt like a 'reluctant musical'. LOL. I loved that
the characters' personalities were not overwhelmed by incongruously
melodious voices. The characters weren't performers; they were
everyday people under a spell. It was very refreshing.
As for the 'critiques' on this board and some of the 'criticism'
I have read on other boards, I too wonder if that isn't linked
to some viewers' level of expectation (or level of musical knowledge:).
So while OMwF didn't boast powerful, quasi-operatic as do the
big Broadway productions, it was able to convey emotion on a different
register that seemed commesurate to the scope of television.
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Review of the musical numbers (Spoilers)
-- Kimberly, 09:36:40 11/12/01 Mon
And on a slightly different level: my husband and I have watched
this episode at least half a dozen times; he made an audio tape
of it so we could listen to it yesterday while making a new baby
visit. My six-year-old son has sat down and watched it all the
way through once (remarkable considering that much of it must
have gone right over his head).
Now, having watched it as often as we have, and having a tendency
to sing along with musicals anyway, my husband and I have started
singing along with most of the numbers. However, we're not allowed
to sing Sweet's song if our son is around because "He's the
bad guy." (And it's a shame: it's not the best song, but
you can put some great over-emoting behind it and have fun.)
For what it's worth.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Especially agree with your Hinton Battle comments... --
A8, 22:26:46 11/10/01 Sat
...the first thing that came to mind regarding his performance
after viewing the ep was Bob Fosse in "The Little Prince."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Review of the musical numbers (con't from below--no
spoilers) -- bible belt, 15:37:38 11/11/01 Sun
The pressure must have been tremendous for SMG since she is the
star of the show and all the numbers she did, kudos there. Also
to have to dance in front of Hinton Battle must have been intimidating
as hell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Review of the musical numbers (con't from below--no
spoilers) -- anom, 20:31:05 11/11/01 Sun
Just on the 1st 3--Battle, Head, & Benson--I'd agree w/you on
the way you put it, "singing ability." But in terms
of vocal quality, I was surprised to find myself liking Benson's
more than Head's. That might have been partly because her voice
was such a revelation. But to me, ASH (it just sounds weird calling
him "Head" after a few times) didn't sound as good as
in the couple of previous eps where we heard him sing. On the
other hand, he could do more w/his voice, which (I figure) is
why he got more ornamentation in his lines.
And, of course, Battle--yeah. Wow.
For the record, I'm a semiprofessional (or maybe semidemi-) singer
w/lots of practice but minimal formal training who somehow learned
to trill without really meaning to just this past April at age
47.
So 'Cat--where can we go to hear you? @>)
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OMWF - Dance Number break downs
-- fresne, 10:29:06 11/10/01 Sat
Okay so there have been some pretty incredible exposition on the
general meaning of the musical, analysis of the