November 2001 posts
Willow and her magic
"addiction" -- purplegrrl, 15:27:16 11/27/01 Tue
Willow should remember her own words to Anya in "Doppelgangland"
that the excessive use of magic is a bad thing (or words to that
effect).
Granted this incident was before Willow was heavily into the black
side of the magickal arts, but why was it bad for Anya the ex-demon
to do black magick (without really telling Willow) for her own
use and it's okay for Willow the good witch to use black magick
just because she usually uses it to help fight bigger evil or
to aid her friends. Willow has gotten to the point where she is
unable to get dressed on time without falling back on her magical
powers. Not to mention stealing her friends' memories and altering
her immediate universe to suit her.
And Amy is a seriously bad influence on Willow. When last we saw
Amy as a witch rather than a rat (in "Gingerbread")
she was unwilling to use her talents/gift in the destructive manner
that her mother did. So why now that she is human again is she
Little Miss Tricky with the spells? Witchcraft is not supposed
to be about fun, revenge, or personal gain (or at least that's
how I understand it).
Maybe tonight's episode will show Willow that her dependence on
magic is a bad thing. We can only hope.
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[> a teensy wittle thing... -- pocky, 23:00:42 11/27/01 Tue
"Witchcraft is not supposed to be about fun, revenge, or
personal gain (or at least that's how I understand it)."
The "personal gain" part is false information being
fed into people by shows like Charmed. Actually, that's the only
show I could think of that has the whole "magick is not for
personal gain" crap.
Magick may be used for everything--it's a matter of whether or
not harm is brought upon ANYone. Harm being of the bad.
~nathan~
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[> [> Re: a teensy wittle thing... -- purplegrrl, 13:05:03
11/29/01 Thu
Okay. Thanks for the clarification.
But if you consistently did witchcraft for personal gain (such
as Willow has been doing) -- even if it's just to get dressed
on time -- you could be doing harm to someone. Could be something
as small as Tara being disappointed that Willow couldn't go even
a week without magic or as big as nearly getting Dawn killed because
you've got to have your "magic fix."
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[> 'nother wittle thing -- anom, 19:56:41 11/28/01 Wed
"Willow has gotten to the point where she is unable to get
dressed on time without falling back on her magical powers."
I read that differently--as Willow using not being ready as an
excuse to stay behind & do the spell instead of leaving w/Tara
& Dawn. I'm not even sure if the towel or that strange black top
she wore was the result of magic--i.e., did she use magic to just
make it look like she wasn't ready, or was she really wearing
the towel & changed her clothes by magic?
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What is the real difference between
white and black magic? -- zombie, 15:52:59 11/27/01 Tue
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[> really, it's all gray. but if you want to get technical...
-- pocky, 16:48:07 11/27/01 Tue
If you need a color to associate the "goodness" of magick
with (black for evil, white for good) gray would be the color.
It's really up to the magick-user whether to use magick for good
or evil. In magickal purposes, the color black is usually used
for banishing and protective workings. White is usually the if-you-don't-have-anything-else
color to use, especially in candle magick.
Now, black, as in Black Magick is the type of magick commonly
used in ceremonial magick. It involves conjurations of spirits
and demons, and lots of drawings of seals, and lots of talking
and lots of threats to demons/spirits who refuse to appear.
I hope that made sense...though I really doubt it did.
~nathan~
PS: no offense to ceremonial magicians out there. ^_^'
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[> [> They way I look at it. -- Wolfhowl3, 16:58:12 11/27/01
Tue
There is no Black or White Magic, it's all just Magic. (and in
my mind, Magic is Green)
You can use a match to light your stove to cook supper, or you
could use the same match to burn down someone's house. That doesn't
make one kind of fire white, and the other black. It's just fire.
Where the distinction lies is the moral choice behind the use
of the tool. To promote life and health, or destroy and hurt.
Wolfhowl
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[> [> [> bless your glibness! -- pocky, 17:00:32 11/27/01
Tue
that was what i was trying to get at! good job, Wolfhowl. i wish
i weren't so verbose!
~nathan~
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[> [> [> [> Thank My Wife, they were her words. (no
Text) -- Wolfhowl3, 20:09:43 11/27/01 Tue
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[> [> [> [> [> Spouses come up with the best stuff...nice
of you to give her credit. -- Rufus, 23:11:20 11/27/01 Tue
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[> [> [> Re: They way I look at it. -- Malandanza, 07:59:40
11/28/01 Wed
"You can use a match to light your stove to cook supper,
or you could use the same match to burn down someone's house.
That doesn't make one kind of fire white, and the other black.
It's just fire. Where the distinction lies is the moral choice
behind the use of the tool. To promote life and health, or destroy
and hurt."
I think there's more to magic than simply being a tool. Where
does the power come from and why do beings that control the power
give it away so freely when evil is being done?
To continue with your match analogy -- what if it took 20 matches
to light your stove, and even then, the fire burned out periodically
and the stove never stayed hot enough long enough to boil water?
And what if a single spark was enough to turn your neighbor's
house into a conflagration? Wouldn't you start to wonder about
fire? (or at least the company that made your matches :)
I think that magic in the Buffyverse follows the same pattern.
Dark, destructive magic is relatively easy to use and easily accessible.
Spells meant to have a beneficial effect have so many drawbacks
or are so complicated that you might as well just do things by
hand. Maybe magic isn't light or dark, but the magic providers
tend towards evil.
I think Willow's attitude has been that magic is neither good
nor evil -- she has learned otherwise. Her recent dabbling into
black magic have left an indelible mark on her strawberry-flavored
soul.
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What do you think Joss will do
after Buffy/Angel end? -- Crichton, 16:43:38 11/27/01 Tue
That day is going to be very far in the future of course, but
eventually all things must end (geez, what are we gonna talk about
then?). When it comes, what do you think Joss will do? Develop
another tv series? Go into films? Speaking of which, has he only
done sci fi stuff, or has he done other things?
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[> There's always... -- RH, 07:15:24 11/29/01 Thu
..."Ripper", or "Dawn the Vampire Slayer",
or he could create a new character (an immortal of some sort)
and chronicle their story from the time they are turned, through
history - that would be neat! We'd get to see them interact in
all sorts of historical events - the viking invasions, the dark
ages, the Inquisition, world wars, Woodstock...! They could even
introduce this character on BtVS or AtS so we'd get to see what
they've become...
The possibilities for a creative mind like Joss' are endless!
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[> Re: What do you think Joss will do after Buffy/Angel end?
-- Skeve, 12:16:34 11/29/01 Thu
Sunnydale Law.
The legal system finally finds its way to Sunnydale. First up:
the insurance claim on Sunnydale High.
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[> [> claim on Sunnydale High? -- zargon, 20:04:23 11/29/01
Thu
I'm surprised W&H haven't shown up yet and made a claim for one
of their demon clients...with all the correct legal paperwork
in hand, of course....
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Tiny comments on "Wrecked"
from 11/27 (SPOILERY!! DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN THE EPISODE!!!)
-- Earl Allison, 18:08:51 11/27/01 Tue
Maybe I'm expecting too much, but was this handled a bit TOO quickly
and easily, or what?
Willow simply swears off magic entirely -- which I'm not real
sure is a good thing -- she handled it well until Season Five.
Suddenly, things are okay again? At least, they seem to be better
-- Buffy's revelation that she was dragged from HEAVEN doesn't
do it, but Dawn being hurt does?
What did Rack offer, and what was he getting in exchange? He seemed
to be giving them a magical high, but what was HE getting? Was
he feeding off the fear? The wild magic?
And I'm all for metaphors, like the sex metaphor from "Graduation
Day Part II," where Angel bites Buffy, but was this a tad
heavy-handed, or again, am I an idiot (entirely possible)?
Now, from all this it sounds like I hated the episode, I didn't.
I loved it, actually, but things just seemed way too quick, concise,
and easily packaged.
Now, let the bloodletting commence.
Take it and run.
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[> Re: Tiny comments on "Wrecked" (SPOILERY!! DO
NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN THE EPISODE!!!) -- Mari_Star_99,
18:18:40 11/27/01 Tue
I agree Earl. That was way too fast to get over magic. I sense
there will be some backsliding on Willow's part. Franky, I hope
JW has not painted himself into a corner here. Can you really
imagine Willow NEVER useing magic again? I'm not sure I liked
this episode. I feel like Willow and Buffy are stalled in character
development. Dawn seems to be the only one to grow in this eppy.
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[> Re: Tiny comments on "Wrecked" from 11/27 (SPOILERY!!)
-- Herself, 18:30:29 11/27/01 Tue
Please, people--Willow is SO not done. She's been on a wild binge,
she's gotten people and herself into trouble, she's wildly remorseful,
she's sworn off. If anybody has ever read Alcoholics Anonymous
they know what's going to happen next. A few jittery "dry"
days, and then WHOMP. Back into it.
Which is exactly, I'm sure, how it'll go with Buffy too. A few
jittery days away from Spike, and then--whomp.
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[> Re: Tiny comments on "Wrecked" from 11/27 (SPOILERY!!)
-- Keyser Soze., 18:30:40 11/27/01 Tue
Hey. Just discovered this board yesterday, seems like a great
discussion board (Most of my friends refuse to admit that Buffy
is a more intelligent show than say, Dawson's Creek).
Anyway, I seriously did not like how the events of this episode
turned out.
About the Willow story - I felt like I was watching Requiem for
a Dream. I agree, the story did seem rushed. One day, Willow and
Amy are both out just looking to have a good time (and Amy was
rat just the day before!) and two days later they're sniveling
addicts, crashing cars and stealing for a fix. "Rack's place"
felt just a little too contrived - could they make the "Magic
= Drugs" allegory any more heavy-handed?
Then there's Spike and Buffy. After watching "Smashed"
I had a hope that perhaps that Buffy and Spike had a cathartic
experience - that they had hit rock bottom, and there was nowhere
to go but up. Well, I was wrong. It just made their relationship
more twisted; in fact I think they've regressed back to their
dynamic post-"Crush".
And their characters seemed to regress in every way. One thing
that seemed hopeful for Spike's character was that he was able
to care for someone else besides his love interests - namely,
the fact that he wanted to protect Dawn. But now it seems he's
lost even that; in response to Buffy's worry he only responds
with a sarcastic quip, and it seems he's only going with Buffy
because of obligation/ulterior motives. I still don't know what
to make of this; are we to believe that as soon as the restraints
on his mind are relaxed just a little, his selfishness overrides
any selfless feelings he had in the past?
Although, perhaps his actions are a result of Buffy's response
to their experience. Still, his demeanor and actions are still
uncalled for. I don't really believe that Spike loves Buffy -
doing that would actually require him to care about her emotions.
And how Buffy was at the end of the episode - that doesn't seem
the result of love. More of selfish desire.
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[> [> Re: Tiny comments on "Wrecked" from 11/27
(SPOILERY!!) -- maddog, 19:31:02 11/27/01 Tue
I don't understand why people seem so appalled at the magic=drugs
concept...drug use is a very serious problem and I can't see a
better metaphor for it than Willow overusing magic...and I don't
see it coming out of nowhere...she's been steadily using more
magic and more powerful magic...you could trace this kinda thing
back to last season if not before. Heavy handed, yes, but rightfully
so.
Yup, Buffy and Spike are twisted, but again, are you shocked?
Spike's had that stupid chip in his head so long he acts more
human that vampire every day....and Buffy, she's been ripped out
of heaven...she's not exactly thinking clearly. So twisted, sure,
but well deserved.
You do realize you just said a vampire did something "uncalled
for"....no kidding...they're evil by nature. :)
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[> [> [> Why the metaphor was a problem ... -- Earl Allison,
15:05:25 11/28/01 Wed
The problem as I see it is, magic has never equalled drugs before,
not in the way it was presented last night.
Did we see Ethan Rayne reveling in his power in such a fashion?
Amy? Anyone? No, it just seemed like a massively changed premise
for the sake of the story -- now I grant you, it didn't go down
that path until Rack came into the picture (and don't get me started
on Amy knowing him and apparently going before she was changed
...), and maybe that's an important plot point, but it came out
of the blue.
Will Willow struggle with this? Maybe, maybe not, but it just
struck me as WRONG. One minute Willow is raising the dead, the
next she's drunkenly staggering down an alley -- just seemed like
it was out of left field, again, for the sake of the story, rather
than logical progression.
Still, I may be pleasantly surprised.
Take it and run.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Why the metaphor was a problem ...
-- Humanitas, 07:00:05 11/29/01 Thu
Magic has been used as a metaphor for drugs. In "The Dark
Age," Giles describes being possessed by Eyghon as "an
incredible high." Also, many of his cautions to Willow have
been very similar to cautions against trying drugs. So the idea
has been there from at least that far back.
I did feel that the metaphor was a bit heavy-handed in this case
though. One of the things I've always enjoyed about this show
was it's subtlety, and there was nothing subtle about this one.
We got hit over the head with it.
I was also a bit surprised that we got to this point so early
in the season. I know the arc isn't finished yet, and there will
be the inevitable backslide-y angst, but still, it seems early
to have reached this point. Maybe it's because the arc isn't really
contained in this season, but is a continuation of things from
last season, I'm not sure. It seems like they usually tease us
more with a character having a problem before they plunge us into
hell, though.
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[> Re: Tiny comments on "Wrecked" from 11/27 (SPOILERY)
-- robert, 18:37:15 11/27/01 Tue
"Maybe I'm expecting too much, but was this handled a bit
TOO quickly and easily, or what?"
You are not expecting too much. You are merely jumping the gun.
Swearing off all magic doesn't change a thing. She MAY have admitted
to having a problem. I think she is still lying to herself about
her ability to go cold turkey however. ME portrayed gruesome physical
withdrawal symptoms in Amy and Willow didn't look so good in the
last scene. I do not believe that she is anywhere near hitting
rock bottom.
I don't think that either Buffy or Willow can resolve their individual
difficulties without the help of the entire gang. Now may be the
time for a real intervention.
Is there a 12-step program for magic addiction?
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[> Re: Tiny comments on "Wrecked" from 11/27 (SPOILERY!!
) -- maddog, 18:38:26 11/27/01 Tue
I thought that very same thing til that last scene...and then
it hit me, no matter how upset Willow is now it's like a drug...and
you don't just quit cold turkey without having serious withdrawal...which
means one of two things. Either we're going to have multiple weeks
of Willow going through MAJOR withdrawal...or she's gonna run
right back because of the addiction.
I'm not exactly sure what Rack gets but we see how he gets it
with that hand over the chest drawing something out of Willow
thing when she and Amy first got there.
They're in the business of metaphores...all these storylines are
"let's take a problem that any person could have(in this
case drug use) and let's put a supernatural twist on it to make
it work for the show". I think this one has gotten quite
serious and for good reason...addiction isn't a good thing whether
it's drugs or alcohol or whatever.
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[> [> Re: Tiny comments on "Wrecked" from 11/27
(SPOILERY!! ) -- DEN, 19:30:37 11/27/01 Tue
Right, maddog! Whether or not the drug/magic analogy was a bit
heavy, watching Willow twisting in pain on the bed in that last
scene brought back memories I don't like. Her comeback will be
a LONG process, almost as hard for those who love her. And Buffy,
hiding behind garlic and a cross to protect herself from her own
desires, is in no better shape.
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[> Re: What Rack got from "Wrecked" 11/27 (SPOILERY!!
DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN THE EPISODE!!!) -- cat, 20:38:02
11/27/01 Tue
What did Rack offer, and what was he getting in exchange?
I was thinking he got the chance for Willow's soul, or at least
a chance to corrupt it. This is what demons do best: corruption.
It takes more time than outright killing, which eliminates a player
from the good side; but instead of killing an enemy, corruption
turns an enemy into an ally.
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[> [> I noticed something..... -- Rufus, 00:57:03 11/28/01
Wed
When they were going to Racks, Willow asked Amy if he was a Warlock
and Amy says "I quess"..........comeon here she didn't
take the time to find out exactly "who or what" this
guy is? Rack also says you gotta give a little to get a little.......so,
a little what?.......Willow is going to have a nice sleep feel
a bit better then she will relapse because going "cold turkey"
may be harder than she expected. The scene at the end....Willow
is sweating, fists clenched..suffering.....Buffy is sitting alone
with her half acre of garlic and a cross.....she may be thinking
but she isn't suffering like Willow is. Thinking that if Willow
just takes the Yaks cheese out of her bra is going to make the
addiction to the high Rack can supply, is just plain naive.
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[> [> [> Hit the post button too soon -- Rufus, 00:59:46
11/28/01 Wed
Thinking that if Willow just takes the Yaks cheese out of her
bra is going to make the addiction, to the high Rack can supply,
disappear.....is just plain naive.
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Anyone mind if I swear? (Spoilers
for "Wrecked") -- Rob, 18:32:54 11/27/01
I know that we don't usually use foul language on this board,
and I apologize for what I am about to type, but it just has to
be said:
HOLY FUCKING SHIT...
This episode was absolutely incredible. It was dark and gutwrenching.
The betrayed look on Dawn's face and then the hard slap she gave
Willow across the face. Willow's face racked with pain and unbearable
sadness. These are images that are going to stay with me for a
long time.
Of course, as usual, there were a few lighter moments: Anya's
hilarious and brilliant Martha Stewart comment comes to mind;
Dawn's peanut butter quesadillas. But the majority of this episode
was dark as hell, and I loved it. It will be hard to watch again,
but it is so worthwhile.
I applaud Joss and particularly Marti Noxon, the author of this
script, for this amazing hour of television, and, further, for
completely turning the audience's expectations on its head. Now
we know that Willow is not becoming evil, even though all signs
pointed towards that. She was in the throes of a very powerful
addiction. Allyson's breakdown at the end was among the best-acted
scenes we have seen in the show's history.
It was also very gratifying to see Buffy and Willow having a real
conversation. The entire gang has been very avoidy with each other
this season, due to all the emotional baggage associated with
ressurrecting Buffy, Willow's addiction, Xander and Anya's impending
marriage, Gile's leaving, etc. and I was worried that the episode
would end with Buffy angry at Willow and Willow descending farther
into magic. Now I think that Willow's recovery will be the thing
that brings Willow and Buffy back together and strengthens the
gang again. I hope that they will be a family again soon, and
that scene with Buffy and Willow really gave me hope.
I also found the last scene very poignant, with Buffy holding
her cross, examining it. There has been a lot of talk on this
board about the symbolism of Buffy having been wearing a horseshoe
good luck charm around her neck instead of the cross this year,
possibly symbolizing the fact that she does not have her heart
in the slaying as she used to, and a possible new reliance on
luck rather than the faith she used to have in the strength of
herself and her support group. I cannot wait now to find out whether
this clasping the cross is a reaffirmation of her trying to come
back into the world, or it is her continuing to wish she could
stop "going through the motions." That may not have
come out clearly. What I meant to ask was, does this mean Buffy
is now "complete" again, or is it another sign that
she still wishes she was?
Another comment I have is that I hope Xander and Anya return to
the forefront of the story when the season returns in January,
since they weren't given much time for the past two weeks.
What else?
I loved the great continuity, as usual: the story continues the
next morning from where we left off; Tara asks if Dawn wants normal
shaped pancakes or funny shapes, as she did earlier this year
(in either "Bargaining" or "After Life," I
believe--anyone remember which one?). It was also interesting
to see that Amy had been dabbling in the Very Dark Powers before
being turned into a rat. When we first saw Amy using magic in
BBB and then in Gingerbread, I thought she was using darker magic
than anyone else on the show seemed to believe, especially when
her eyes turned black before turning herself into a rat--she seemed
full of fury, as she did before turning Buffy into a rat in BBB.
And now we know just how dark the powers she was playing with
really were.
My only problem with the whole episode was--Amy said her father
was expecting her. When did she call him--while Willow and her
were out partying all night?!? But, you know what, I loved the
episode so much, I'll completely let that little nitpick go. She
called while they were out, or maybe before they left. Yeah.
Anyway--very strong episode that I'm sure will have a lasting
effect on the characters. I'm dying to know how Dawn and Willow's
relationship will heal, as well as Tara and Willow's. Now I'm
starting to feel more than ever that Amber Benson is not in the
credits just to cast doubt in the audience members' eyes about
where the story is going.
But Willow seems serious about staying on the straight and narrow
from now on (well, hopefully not completely straight...I know,
bad pun!), and I think she means it this time.
Oh, I just need to make another comment about Buffy and Willow's
conversation. I was amazed just how perfectly it echoed so many
thoughts that we had here at ATPoBtVS...The idea that Willow didn't
feel special, and then she was "Super-Willow" and the
possibility that she felt jealous of Buffy and her superpowers.
It's very interesting that Willow says she felt she wasn't special,
especially since Xander has had similar doubts in the past of
his importance to the group.
Now I'm ready for all the healing to begin!
Rob
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[> Re: Anyone mind if I swear? (Spoilers for "Wrecked")
-- Herself, 18:40:58 11/27/01 Tue
I think Buffy's cradling of that cross in the end had more to
do with why she'd hung garlic over all her windows--to keep Spike
from wandering in and ravishing her in her bed. Clearly she's
afraid of what she wants to do with him. For me both her swearing
off of Spike and Willow's swearing off of magic were of a piece--big
brave talk that they're not going to be able to hold to.
By the way, this is my second post here--found this yesterday.
Am enthralled. Just wish this board wasn't so wonky; it seemed
to be unavailable a good deal of the afternoon today. I'm super
impressed with the thoughtfulness and quality of the posts.
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[> [> Welcome! (and today was a particulary bad board day)...
-- Wisewoman, 18:49:18 11/27/01 Tue
It's frustrating as hell for all of us when it's like it was today,
but fortunately it doesn't happen often.
You might wanna bookmark the chat (link above) separately, and
check in there when the Board isn't working. We usually turn up
to compare notes.
;o)
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[> [> Re: Anyone mind if I swear? (Spoilers for "Wrecked")
-- pagangodess, 18:53:51 11/27/01 Tue
'Wrecked' left me feeling 'deflated'. Loved it and hated it. I'm
deeply disturbed by Willows actions and could relate to what Dawn
went through that night.
Wow, again. I'm sure this is exactly what Joss and Marti wanted
us to feel. Amazed and disturbed. This one was dark, you're right
Rob.
I took the ending differently. I think Buffy was hoping Spike
would come. Why else would she go through the trouble of hanging
garlic in her room? All she needs is a stake.
Still can't think clearly, too much emotion was brought out in
me through 'Wrecked'.
pagangodess
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[> [> [> ending of "Wrecked" (Spoilers for
"Wrecked") -- cortney, 19:54:10 11/27/01 Tue
*I think Buffy was hoping Spike would come. Why else would she
go through the trouble of hanging garlic in her room? All she
needs is a stake.*
I thought she looked more vulnerable than anything else. The cross
and garlic are passive defenses - maybe if Buffy had that stake,
I could see her as planning or hoping for a fight. But as it was,
it seemed like she was just warding off something - Spike himself,
or her attraction to him?
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[> [> [> [> Re: ending of "Wrecked" (Spoilers
for "Wrecked") -- Arya Stark, 00:22:22 11/28/01 Wed
I too thought she was hoping Spike would come. She was hoping
that he would see that she was trying to keep him out.
I've done similar things before-- setting up a scene (no lights,
dark depressing music) in hopes that the person I was mad at would
come and find out that I was mad at them!
But I can also see what someone else mentioned-- She wasn't trying
to keep Spike out, but trying to keep herself in.
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[> [> [> [> [> Welcome! (Love George RR Martin,
btw) ;o) -- Wisewoman, 19:36:49 11/28/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Are you the same wisewoman
from the ASOIAF board ? NT -- Stranger, 23:15:41 11/28/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't think so, 'cause
I don't know what it is! ;o) -- WW, 08:11:07 11/29/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh! Song of Ice
& Fire! D'oh...nope, that's not me. -- WW, 08:14:28 11/29/01 Thu
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[> Don't worry, I'll just cover my blushing eyes...........;)
-- Rufus, 18:51:57 11/27/01 Tue
Loved tonights episode....it is setting us up for a great Feb.
sweeps. Buffy with the cross and the garlic had me laughing as
we all know that she is stronger than Spike, so what is she trying
to repel?
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[> [> Don't forget how dangerous Spike is -- Crichton, 19:23:38
11/27/01 Tue
Buffy may be stronger, but remember, Spike took out two Slayers,
one on one, with only his skill and strengh to back him up. Now
that he can fight her again, and if he ever does turn evil, he
can really give her a run for her money.
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[> [> [> My take on the cross and garlic.... -- Nina,
20:04:20 11/27/01 Tue
I found that last scene very touching and I really didn't laugh
at it. If Buffy would fear something as a Slayer she would have
asked Tara to put a deinvite spell again. She would sleep with
a stake under her pillow. But that's not the issue here. They
fought and she knows that if she wants to she can kill him. The
problem is that she probably doesn't want to and that disturbs
her.
The cross and garlic are what normal people defend themselves
against vampires. It's not the Slayer who is afraid, it's the
girl. She's hugging the cross as she would hug Mr. Gordo. She
looks like she's trying to get herself to feel better about the
whole situation, but she deals with it as a human being, not a
Slayer. And it's all good to me as it is really the Buffy part
of herself who is afraid.
The way I see it, Buffy is freaked out. And it's undertandable.
I don't see what she seeks in Spike as being an addiction. She
believes it though and she makes all those parallels with Willow
because she wants to convince herself that it isn't right, that
it's wrong (like Faith in Buffy said in "Who are you")
Willow's journey is to accept who she is. She isn't a superhero.
Like we saw in "Restless" she has to stop stepping on
everyone's cue and take off her costume.
Buffy's journey is also accepting who she is, but she has to accept
that she is a superhero, like Joan did in TR. She has to accept
that some of her pre-conceptions are false. She has to let herself
go and risk the pain... otherwise she will lose her humanity (like
the guide said in "Intervention").
If Willow is addicted to power, Buffy is addicted to her black
and white world where she is the good girl and where vampires
are bad unless they have a soul. Buffy is not completely human
anymore, that belief got smashed last week. And from what we saw
in TR she can find a proper balance if that B&W world isn't in
her head!
I'm quite psyched for the rest of the season. I personally feel
that we have seen the peak of the Bad and dark Willow arc (thank
god, the methaphor with drugs was just way too obvious to me -
but I accepted it as character development) If anything it really
helped Buffy and Willow bond again after all that happened since
Buffy's return. I also believe we will still see Denial Buffy,
but Spike said it two times in the episode :"Things have
changed", so we won't see the same kind of dynamic.
Really loved to hear positive thoughts on that episode Rob.....
I was at BAPS before (to read the CC) and I just had to leave
as so many people didn't seem to get the episode... or if they
got it they really didn't like it.
It's so depressing reading many bad comments when you actually
like an episode! So thanks for chimming in!!!! :)
PS. The pancake reference comes from Bargaining part 1, beginning
of act 1! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> I'm with you Nina. -- Cactus Watcher,
20:12:52 11/27/01 Tue
You pretty much said what I had to say and a lot more. :o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Totally Agree Nina .Couldn't have
said it bettter -- Artemis, 20:38:12 11/27/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: My take on the cross and garlic....
-- maddog, 20:44:34 11/27/01 Tue
While I enjoyed all of your comments, I can't see this as being
the end of Willow's downward spiral...addictions don't die that
quickly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> You may be right about Willow, but
-- CW, 20:54:33 11/27/01 Tue
Seeing her drive off Tara and nearly get Dawn killed two different
ways, was plenty for me. I'd like to see some hope for her now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Willow going downhill... -- Nina,
14:00:56 11/28/01 Wed
"I can't see this as being the end of Willow's downward spiral...addictions
don't die that quickly."
Not the end.... or maybe I don't remember what I wrote! I thought
I said we saw the highest peak... now it will go downhill.....
doesn't mean it's over... just that we saw the worst of it. Maybe
it's just wishful thinking on my part! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Seeing Spike as an addiction is easier
than seeing him..... -- Rufus, 23:05:20 11/27/01 Tue
As a person. Buffy is supposed to slay the bad vampires, she and
they have a place and her sex with and continued attraction to
Spike screws up her world view. I laughed at the last scene because
is was so absurd. Spike wasn't going to be scraping at her windows
begging to be allowed in....he's already in..Buffy just hasn't
accepted that fact yet. As tender as Spike is capable of being
he can also be crass. Buffy didn't need to be compared to the
slayers that Spike had killed....it brought her back to why she
shouldn't be having sex with the "enemy". It also makes
how she see's all demons a bit more complicated than she'd like.
The only consistant thing is that she always ends up looking to
Spike for help....and not just to find her panties either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> What is BAPS and where is it? -- Traveler,
23:06:18 11/27/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> BAPS... -- Nina, 14:21:48 11/28/01
Wed
The message board is here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bloody_Awful/messages/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> And here I thought... -- WillowFan, 00:28:00
11/28/01 Wed
...Buffy was planning to cook a ton of Italian food. And maybe
pray a little bit.
Maybe she came back from the grave...Catholic!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> LOL.......I thought....gee Italian
night at Buffy's.........:):):) -- Rufus, 00:38:54 11/28/01 Wed
Next thought what all night 7-11 has that much garlic?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, I was thinking...
-- WillowFan, 00:44:25 11/28/01 Wed
...that Buffy must have gone to CostCo or Price Club or some other
wholesaler to buy such a mess of garlic all at once.
It seemed like a lot of effort just to "ward off" Spike.
I mean, even after Giles's generous gift, doesn't Buffy still
have to pay all the bills?
On the other hand, perhaps Sunnydale has a discount garlic source,
because, you know, the vampires and all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL.......stoooop it........Costco...........:):):)
-- Rufus, 00:48:59 11/28/01 Wed
Explain the 100 pounds of garlic to the cashier Buffy.;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is Trish
Burkle -- Kimberly, 08:03:05 11/28/01 Wed
OK guys, stop it and behave yourselves! ;-) I'm going to get into
trouble if I start snickering at work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, it'a
all her.....fault.......serious academic here........;) -- Rufus,
19:35:26 11/28/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Exactly, Rufus! -- WW, 19:25:04 11/27/01 Tue
I just picture her sitting there, wide awake and vigilant all
night, and he doesn't show up!
She'd be so ticked, she'd have to go and find him a give him a
good dressing-down.
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> WW, do you mean undressing? -- Slayrunt, 21:09:06
11/27/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Archaic and deliberately suggestive terminology..
-- WW, 19:41:12 11/28/01 Wed
...for giving him a good talking to!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Careful, or liq will threaten to kick you out -- vampire
hunter D, 19:30:15 11/27/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anyone mind if I swear? (Spoilers for "Wrecked")
-- maddog, 20:26:17 11/27/01 Tue
oh, I totally agree. Best part of the episode was Dawn's hurt
look of betrayal and then the slap...true feeling...very well
acted. THe Martha Stewart comment was hilarious. I've always wondered
about her. :)
I have to disagree that Willow's storyline is over...it's far
from that...admitting you have a problem...and stopping...especially
cold turkey....are two TOTALLY different things. What I'll admit
was that I was surprised they came to this portion of the storyline
so fast. I expected a few more episodes of magic overuse.
The Buffy/Willow conversation was nice...you're right...not enough
of that going on lately...even the conversation between Xander
and Buffy about Willow's magic overuse seemed rushed. The storylines
tend to be continuous but this one was much more so because the
last two episodes seemed like a part1/part2 concept. I thought
Amy called her father during the last episode...maybe not.
It'll take a while for Dawn and Willow to patch things up. A big
trust was broken...Willow was like a mother figure to her. A strong
bond there. Amber's never been in the credits cause she was never
meant to be an everyday player...not yet at least.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anyone mind if I swear? (Spoilers for "Wrecked")
-- Lupe, 21:49:03 11/27/01 Tue
Here goes my first post here:
I, too, enjoyed this episode, though it was hard to watch (as
many eps are this season). I don't think Willow's addiction is
anywhere close to over, but hey, admitting you need help IS the
first step. The problem is, Buffy's still not willing to admit
SHE needs help. In addiction, secrecy is a big NO NO, and Buffy
is keeping her secrets (yes - shame, but also it lets her continue
to act out).
Willow's admitting she has the problem with magic could actually
create a real block between her and Buffy, because Buffy may be
that much more hesitant to tell her or other scoobies that she
may not have come back "right," - which let's face it,
needs to be dealt with. (Hey, Will - know you're hitting rock
bottom and all with the magic, but by the way, you brought me
back wrong).
I liked the idea of the girl Buffy being afraid of Spike as opposed
to the Slayer. I have to admit, I don't totally get the B/S attraction.
I've heard the theories for it, but nothing has completely satisfied
me, because my reaction is the same as Buffy's: "that was
the most disgusting, perverse thing I've ever done." Although
the writers could have built up a nice relationship (of sorts)
between the two of them (a la the nice back porch scenes we had),
they instead have taken a different route where Buffy's relationship
with Spike is more about her own darkness and demons (as perhaps
well it should be). In other words "Smashed" and "Wrecked"
are not synonyms for "hugs" and "puppies."
Okay, I'm rambling off on a tangent now. Maybe I should have considered
doing a nice outline for my first post.
Anyhow: I'm loving this season, although it is very dark - a lot
more drama, I think, than any season we've had so far. And a really
major and slow moving arc. I'm very impatient with it and am going
to go bonkers waiting for a new episode!
Anyhoo: my favorite quote in the episode: Amy: It's not what you
think - it's sage. Buffy: That is what I thought.
He he! Only in the Summers house!
(PS - been an admirer and lurker of this site and board for awhile!
Hope I can contribute!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Sage the multiple use spice........ -- Rufus, 23:09:42
11/27/01 Tue
Welcome and you just contributed with your first post. You are
right....Buffy isn't afraid of vampires just herself...the garlic
and cross just showed that even Buffy doesn't have the solution
to a vampire that has managed to get to close to her heart...notice
she didn't have any stakes...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anyone mind if I swear? (Spoilers for "Wrecked")
-- change, 04:05:24 11/28/01 Wed
I don't think this was a bad episode, but I think it was a little
too blunt. I think it's better when an episode doesn't hit you
over the head repeatedly with its message. The metaphores for
magic use as a drug addition, and paying Rack off with sex could
have been a little less obvious and a little more metaphorical.
I think Willow and Amy's decent into addiction was handled too
quickly. One day Amy seems to be normal, AND HAS NOT USED MAGIC
IN 3 YEARS. The next day, she's going to a sleazy magic den to
get a high from some half demon, and later on is stealing to support
her new habit. There was a little more back story with Willow,
but she seemed to fall into Rack's grasp a little too quickly
as well.
The show also compared Willow's addiction to magic to Buffy's
addiction to sex with Spike. However, I don't see how you can
consider yourself addicted to sex after a single one night stand.
Although perhaps the intent of ME is for Buffy to explain her
feelings towards Spike as an addition, rather than facing up to
the idea that she may really be attracted to him.
Obviously, both Willow and Buffy have a long way to go. Willow
is obviously not going to make it going cold turkey, and the use
of garlic on the windows symbolizes the futility of Buffy's rejection
of Spike. When was the last time Spike came into a house by turning
himself into a bat and flying through a bedroom window? For that
matter, when was the last time garlic was used to repell a vampire
on BtVS?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: I agree, and also.... (Spoilers for "Wrecked")
-- mundusmundi, 04:57:34 11/28/01 Wed
As I bemoaned in chat last night, why is the sex issue taking
precedence over Buffy's teensy little identity problem? Seems
if I were raised from the grave, and I now had reason to suspect
I might not've come back entirely intact, that I just might want
to do some investigating as to why. I'm sure it will be argued
that this was the point -- that Buffy's in denial, that we must
first unquestioningly BELIEVE the show's genius before we can
RECEIVE it, blah blah -- but I just didn't like the way it was
handled. The three episodes leading up to this one were so good,
that it seemed even more annoying.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not Liking Buffy so much -- Mari_Star_99,
19:29:42 11/27/01 Tue
I am dissapointed with Wreacked. Earl Allison pointed out that
it seemed TOO easy/fast for Willow. Although, I can see why a
car wreack and a demon had a more of an effect on Willow. She
she got to see it for herself, and it doesn't look like Buffy
didn't talk much about her experiance in Heaven. That said I think
there will be so major backsiding before she can really control
her magicall impulses.
But here is what I really did not like... Buffy
I understand that she is in denial. But it is half way through
the season and the Buffster is not showing any signs of growing.
Rather she has regressed. In Intervention she was able to acknoledge
that Spike did a good thing for her and Dawn. Good. It takes maturity,
to admit someone you normally consider an enemy has done something
good.
We (and Buffy) know that Spike, in addtion enduring torture at
Glory's hands and willingness to give his life up in the Gift,
fought alongside the Scoobs all summer, helped look after Dawn,
gentley comforted Buffyr after she came back, and saved her from
burning to death in OMWF. Yet, we have not heared a single word
of thanks on her part. Or even a matter of fact acknoledgment
of the Good thing Spike has done. I find this unsatisfying as
a veiwer. I said in an earler post that I felt Willow and Buffy
were emotionaly stalled. After thinking about it some more, I
definitly feel Buffy storyline/character development is stalled.
We have established that she is feels frozne emotionally. Instead
of using the passion she shared with Spike to develop and explore
who she is and what she really feels for Captain Peroxide, she
goes into "This is BAD. I must not do BAD thing" mode.
Buffy needs to start the growth part of her story, or I fear it
will feel rushed and fake. Kind of like Willow just "getting"
that the magic was too much in this one episode. I would like
to see Buffy's growth over several episodes, not in a slam bam
"Oh I really do love Spike and can find a way to have a relationship
with him as long as his not sucking anyone blood anymore".
Which BTW I fear is exactly where they are headed with this.
The sight of Buffy in her room with garlic and a cross was probably
meant to be a little funny. It struck me as sad. Spike has not
come to her bedroom since he set her stright on Riley. Not to
mention the physical interludes between then were mostly instigated
by her. I don't understand why she would surround herself with
garlic and a cross. She just not the Slayer I knew and loved.
Overall I think this was the weakest eppisode this season. I really
did like seeing Dawn kick the demon though. At least she is doing
some growing. Go Dawnie! Go Dawine! Go Dawie! Go! Go!
One the upside I think I've got a new favorite qoute...
Buffy: "Last night was the most perverse,degrading experience
of my life." Spike:( smiles) "Yeah me too."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- Herself, 19:42:35 11/27/01
Tue
I agree, I was disappointed in Buffy's behavior, and surprised.
Of course part of me just wanted to see more raunch between the
two of them, but aside from that, I did feel Buffy was stuck.
I expected Spike to exhibit some of his affection for Dawn while
they were out looking for her and for this to touch Buffy and
thaw her out a little. That didn't really happen; Spike's part
in the rescue was so truncated. It's time for Buffy to undergo
a change of attitude. All your points about what Spike's done
for her are well-taken.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- maddog, 19:53:41 11/27/01
Tue
Buffy's in denial...easy as that...what I find confusing is just
because her character is following a path that some don't like,
it's considered bad...characters can't be perfect...they're not
supposed to be. Is it fair to judge the direction a show takes
just because we don't like it? I don't know...just seems like
a lot of people are doing it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- Wynn, 20:43:39 11/27/01
Tue
I don't think that people are beginning to not like the show or
Buffy herself; I think that we are (at least I am) beginning to
be frustrated with Buffy's behavior towards Spike. It seems to
be one step forward, five steps back over and over again. I'm
waiting for the moment that actually makes Buffy acknowledge that
straight black and white/good and evil do not exist (the moment
that makes DenialBuffy disappear) and for her to acknowledge that
there is some sort of a relationship between them.
I'm a bit confused about the extreme lack of interaction between
Spike and Dawn. Spike protected her and looked after her the entire
summer, but their bond/frienship has been non existant this season.
I'm confused that he would rush up the tower in The Gift to protect
Dawn, nearly getting himself killed in the process, then protect
her the entire summer, but have little to no interaction with
her since Buffy's return. Any thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- sl, 21:28:19
11/27/01 Tue
I know, what is Buffy's problem! And I do wonder about the lack
of interaction between spike and dawn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- maddog, 21:33:56
11/27/01 Tue
Some have expressed their distaste, which is why I wrote that.
Buffy will have that epiphany eventually...she just needs time
to figure it out. THe only reason I can see for the lack of interaction
is that he doesn't want extra run ins with Buffy because of how
she treats him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- Deeva, 21:49:03
11/27/01 Tue
"beginning to be frustrated with Buffy's behavior towards
Spike. It seems to be one step forward, five steps back over and
over again."
That's exactly what is starting to kind of gnaw away at me. Just
when you think there's progress, we're yanked right back almost
past the drawing board. I mean I know that this is one of the
many reasons that we tune in every week but I'm pretty close to
"enough" already, although not just yet cause when I
finally do have enough of it that would mean not tuning in anymore
and that's an impossibility for me.
As I gather from what I'm reading here & there, other people are
saying that they hated/didn't like this episode. While this is
not my favorite ep. (aside from Butt Naked!Spike, oh, babyyyyyyyy!)
it is far from being one that I hate.
Spike & Dawn interaction. Yeah I agree that it's a little weird
for the 2 of them to spend a whole summer grieving together, Spike
watching over her (rather smotheringly so as evidenced in Bargaining)
and so on, for them to not have that much screen time. But maybe
that's something that we're also not supposed to be seeing. The
idea that they were, and maybe are still close, has already been
set in our heads. Now it's time for Dawn and Buffy to try and
settle into some sort of routine as they didn't really have that
chance after Joyce died and before Buffy died.
I'm really disappointed in Buffy. There's no other way for me
to say it. Why would she revert back to such a passive defense
against Spike from entering into her house? I understand that
she may be feeling lost and extremely confused at her attraction
to Spike but I don't know about the garlic and cross. She knows
that she is stronger than Spike. Even way before he was chipped,
he wasn't able to kill or best her. I'm not sure what to make
of it.
And Spike, well, for a vamp/romanticist who has his moments this
sure wasn't one of them. Way to keep a girl interested, huh? The
line he says about "killing Slayers are great but...".
What girl is going to stick around after that?! Sigh! Now we face
a whole month of re-runs. I'm already in withdrawl.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- pagangodess,
22:19:32 11/27/01 Tue
I'm with you on this one, Deeva (especially the part about butt
naked Spike, lol). I have mixed feelings about the episode, i.e.
love/hate. My thinking on Spike and Dawn is that it's so like
Spike to step back and let Buffy run the show. Like in 'All the
Way' and in 'Wrecked', when he takes care of Dawn while Buffy
fights the demon. That is why, imo, once Buffy was back in Dawn's
life, Spike took leave and waited for Buffy's call if she needed
him. He sometimes knows his place. Besides, Dawn knows where to
find him. And, I'll have to rewatch the scene, but I thought Buffy
looked close to tears when she told Spike that it could never
happen again (beginning of 'Wrecked'). Spike should have kept
his mouth shut about "killing slayers is great, but.."
Then again, what guy does not like to gloat over stuff like that.
pagan
'Do it, just do it. Kill me! Take me out of the world that has
you in it' Spike in 'Out of My Mind'
I know it doesn't have anything to do with it, but it's my favourite
Spike quote and I couldn't resist putting here.
Though now that I did... Spike's dream is really foretelling of
'Smashed', don't you think. She comes to him, they fight, they
kiss. Was Joss trying to tell us something?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Possible ***Spoilers*** above, sorry
-- pagangodess, 22:20:53 11/27/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Gloating -- Deeva, 23:31:48
11/27/01 Tue
Yeah, guys like to gloat and so do girls, too. But must he gloat
while he's with her? I can just see it nw some where out there
is a guy saying to a girl "Man, your sisters are hot but
you're way hotter!" Ick! save it for when your with your
friends.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Gloating -- DEN,
06:31:51 11/28/01 Wed
Of course running his mouth is bad form. But Spike was in great
form , apparently all night (check the mutual bruises and scratches
and Buffy's careful movements when she returns home). He has never
been able to resist a good one-liner whatever it costs him. It
is perfectly in character that he would make exactly that kind
of comment--even though he had to know what Buffy's reaction would
be. Spike, to sum it up, is no gentleman. I sort of think that's
the idea. ,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Gloating --
Rufus, 20:24:27 11/28/01 Wed
He's no gentleman but he doesn't have the malicious big mouth
Parker did. He didn't turn evil after sex, cause hey!, he's already
evil. Buffy did say that she would kill him if he ever told anyone
about their night together.....I wonder if Parker is still alive?????;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Gloating --
Traveler, 23:25:40 11/28/01 Wed
I can kind of see where Spike is coming from here. After all,
I think I would have a similar reaction under the circumstances.
I mean, if you were a vampire, wouldn't you be thinking, "dude!
I just had sex with the Slayer! How cool is that?" Just imagine
him going to hang out with all his vampire buddies and saying,
"hey, while all you guys were trying to figure out how to
kill her, guess what I was doing? I was having mind numblingly
good sex with her! Haven't any of you morons noticed that the
Slayer is a hot?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I agree with you....... -- Rufus, 22:53:32 11/27/01
Tue
To expect Buffy to be perfect is the impossible dream. Buffy was
dragged out of heaven...the spell bringing her back was interrupted
part way through. If Buffy is being a bitch maybe there is good
reason for it. As for Spike, love the character but he is far
from perfect himself as he proved when he made that crude reference
to slayers. Both characters are interesting because of their flaws.
If they had none there would be no story because they would become
dreadfully dull.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Their perfection lies in their flaws. -- Deeva,
23:34:01 11/27/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- Talia, 20:45:15 11/27/01
Tue
This episode was something of a let down from the past few...although
that still leaves Buffy easily the best thing on TV, with the
possible exception of its own reruns. I can't give a specific
reason why it was slightly less brilliant. It just didn't gel
quite as well as previous eps this season.
Buffy's bitchiness was not why I merely liked "Wrecked"
rather than adored it. It's a reasonable story arc for her character
to travel....but it's still annoying as all get out. How any sane
straight woman could have Spike wrapped around her pinky and push
him away I'll never understand. Aside from the drool-factor, he
has shown unbelievable loyalty to her, even loyalty to her friends
and family when she was unable to observe. She had acknowledged
Spike as a person at the end of last season and for the first
few episodes of this one. It seems that bringing her feelings
for Spike from the depths of her subconscious to a purely physical
manifestation in the real world has prompted her to deny that
they exist as anything other than a bodily impulse. Since OMWF,
she's flung words designed to hurt at Spike, trying to drive him
off, trying to defend her moping space, trying to keep her own
feelings under the surface or destroyed. Buffy has been hurt enough
even before her death to resist romance with anyone. Disgust with
Spike is a manifestation of her desire to keep anyone at all from
getting close to her. She wants to feel, but she is afraid. Now
she's using Spike to get what little physical and emotional fulfillment
she can receive without opening herself up to whatever happiness
or misery love throws her way. My hope is that her resolution
to stay away from Spike in this episode can turn into a resolution
to refrain from using and abusing Spike like a drug and instead
treating him as a person. Until then we all have to deal with
the Queen of Denial.
I'm also annoyed at Spike lately. He's not showing much of that
patience we saw in The Gift. Waiting by her door is no longer
enough. Buffy's hot and cold attitude is hard enough to deal with
for those of us not currently in love with her, so I see where
he's coming from. Still, I think he would get fewer cutting remarks
aimed his way if he tried to restrain his own. Or maybe not. Who
can predict the amazing resurrected Denial Girl?
My favorite line: "When did the building fall down?"
Geez, she really is out of it.
Sorry about the rather rambling nature of that post. I think it
said something, just not in an especially organized manner. I
need more sleep.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Not Liking Buffy so much -- maddog, 21:37:43 11/27/01
Tue
When did anyone call Buffy sane? :) She was barely sane before
her death/ressurection. I also think she feels that if she gives
in to Spike then she's somehow betraying her feelings for Angel.
Spike's sick and tired of the way she treats him...I think he's
just finally hit his breaking point...as for your quote...I think
that just shows how focused on the fight/sex she was.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I just say... Go Dawn! (Spoilers
for Wrecked) -- Lucifer_Sponge, 21:37:28 11/27/01 Tue
I've decided that I'm greatly impressed my Dawn's actions in Wrecked.
I sort of expected her to just bolt in the opposite direction
of that creature, but instead she fought back. She kicked it,
and shocked the hell out of me AND the monster. I didn't see it
coming (don't think Beastie Boy did either). Then she throws sand
in the thing's eyes and thwaps it to try and beat it back a little.
Must be that ol' Summers blood, huh?
Plus, and also, I kind of enjoyed it when she slapped Willow.
I love the little red-head, I really do, but what she did had
to have some reprecussions other than a sobbing "How could
you?". She deserved it. And Dawn deserved to be able to do
it.
~Sponge
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> She didn't slap very hard..... -- Rufus, 22:58:46 11/27/01
Tue
Dawn may have given that demon a good kick but she couldn't bring
herself to slap Willow very hard. Willow was there when Buffy
died, helped her, was someone she loves. The betrayal of tonight
was too much for Dawn. She doesn't have anyone she can count on
right now. Buffy is inconsistant, Willow is busy trying to free
herself from herself. Dawn was right to wonder if anyone see's
her or cares. The indication from those closest to her is no,
they are too wrapped up in themselves to see that Dawn is feeling
abandoned.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: She didn't slap very hard..... -- Lucifer_Sponge,
23:14:49 11/27/01 Tue
I agree wholeheartedly. She didn't -need- to slap Willow hard.
It was all about the intent. She wanted Willow to know how hurt,
offended, and disgusted she was.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Can I just say... Go Dawn! (Spoilers for Wrecked) --
RH, 08:37:00 11/29/01 Thu
Dawn's been quite a little powehouse since Buffy's return - she's
finally starting to carve her own identity and building some confidence.
She no longer sees herself as just "the key" - this
"thing".
Lately we've been seeing a LOT of evidence of "Summer's blood"
pumping strongly through her veins. We know that Joyce seldom
cowered and even smashed Spike in the head with a fire axe (when
he was first introduced) - so generally Summer's women have more
gumption than fear, which is good! I also suspect that because
she was made from "Buffy", that Slayer traits are going
to be showing up more frequently. Why else would the "key"
have been intentionally sent to Buffy as a 15/16 year old girl?
It could have been a twin sister, it could have been a baby, it
could have been an adult better able to protect itself... why
SPECIFICALLY a girl on the brink of "Slayer" age?!?!
You gotta wonder...
Since the resurrection we have seen Dawn...
-grab a makeshift stake when she heard strange noises in the alley
on Hallowe'en night, (we have - to this point - never seen Dawn
witness a vampire execution - although she did see Buffy behead
the "hitch-hiker demon" - she's heard about dustings
but has always been "protected" from actual interaction
between the SG and the "nasties". Nonetheless, her first
instinct - which used to be to RUN - has changed - instead, she
grabbed the stake and went to investigate).
-resist and dust her first vampire who was also a school friend/first
"boyfriend/first kiss - that takes more than a few cahjones
(sp?)
-throw a makeshift stake to "Alex" even though she didn't
know who she was, or if she was "Joan's" real sister,
and had only seen a vamp dusted once. Sure, she screamed like
a girl and ran when she first saw the vamp in the tunnel, but
when she realized that "Alex" needed help, she didn't
turn all "dear-in-headlights" and was clever and quick
enough to provide the perfect solution. This says to me that on
some level, fighting vamps is instinctual, (even though to this
point, she's only dusted one herself). She also said that the
"fear" felt strangely familiar - it was not necessarily
uncomfortable.
-in "Wrecked" we see her healthy "fear" as
she stays alert and tells Willow that she is going home - already
she senses that things are not right, and that in Willow's state,
she will have to take care of her own safety. When the demon appears
she not only hoofs him solidly in the gut, (where did THAT move
come from?!), but grabs Willow and runs. When Willow tries to
take over and help with the car, this is when Dawn shows true
fear - she is not in a position to control what will happen. After
the car crash, Dawn is once again in control and jumps out of
the car presumably to aid Willow - (notice, she has a large gash
on her head and a fracture and doesn't pass out? Summer's blood?
Quick healing? Higher tolerance?) The demon attacks again and
her instincts lead her to scramble under the car and throw sand
in his eyes, (very inventive weapon! She has imagination in that
area just like Buffy!) Even with her fractured arm, she beats
at the beast and screams for help until Buffy comes to the rescue.
(Funny how she reverts back to "kid-sister" Dawn as
soon as Buffy arrives - she knows she can rest easy now that big
sis is here to take over, and she takes this time to bemoan her
wounds.)
I am very pleased and excited with Dawn's progress on the show!
YOU GO, GIRL! Although I am disappointed that she is being so
heinously neglected - is this some sort of Slayer rite of passage?
Being alone? Buffy's parents went through a divorce and she was
relocated with no friends for support when she "came of age",
and now Dawn is not only abandoned by her mother, Spike and Giles,
but Willow and Buffy as well! (Thank goodness for Tara - I have
a sincere hope that she makes it to the opening credits in the
near future!!!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> yes...& no...& bonus: spelling! -- anom, 22:22:43
11/29/01 Thu
"grab a makeshift stake when she heard strange noises in
the alley"
Not sure if it was a stake or a club--looked like a big hunk of
wood, but not necessarily pointy.
"we have - to this point - never seen Dawn witness a vampire
execution"
Hmm. You sure? I was thinking of the time Buffy dusted 4 of Harmony's
minions while Dawn was chained up--Buffy did tell her to keep
her eyes closed, but maybe she peeked?
"that takes more than a few cahjones (sp?)"
You need but ask. It's cojones (yes, I can spell in spanish too!).
"More than a few"? Just how many? I know somebody who's
reputed to have a 3rd, although I haven't seen for myself (& don't
particularly want to...). @>) (disadvantage of mutant cyclops
smily: how do you make it wink? \>)?)
"(notice, she has a large gash on her head and a fracture
and doesn't pass out? Summer's blood? Quick healing? Higher tolerance?)"
Adrenalin? Actually, we don't know how long it was before she
got out of the car...maybe she was unconscious for a while.
"her instincts lead her to scramble under the car and throw
sand in his eyes, (very inventive weapon! She has imagination
in that area just like Buffy!)"
Yeah, I liked that too!
"(Funny how she reverts back to "kid-sister" Dawn
as soon as Buffy arrives - she knows she can rest easy now that
big sis is here to take over, and she takes this time to bemoan
her wounds.)"
Some people are like that--someone I used to work with said she's
very good in a crisis if she's the one best qualified to handle
it; if there's someone better to do it, she tends to break down
while they deal w/it.
I definitely agree overall--go Dawn!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrecked (spoilers) -- Onipo,
22:35:03 11/27/01 Tue
Just finished watching Wrecked for the third time, and what I'm
wondering is, if Willow dragged that demon out of hell, who was
the woman it was carrying when it appeared? I can only see three
possibilities, and I really hope Glory isn't going to make a reappearance.
And I don't think either Joyce or Jenny went to hell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I'm not very helpful -- Traveler, 22:51:29 11/27/01 Tue
I noticed that too, but I have NO idea who (or what) it could
be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: I'm not very helpful -- Deeva, 23:36:24 11/27/01
Tue
I'm not much help either. The woman looked like she had blond
(straight) hair, maybe?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Willow's Visions (spoilers; wild speculation on rest of
series) -- Umbriel, 00:07:55 11/28/01 Wed
I think this might be the most important event of the whole episode.
While Willow's magic-induced visions could be mere hallucinations,
this doesn't seem to be how the Buffyverse usually works. Visions
and dreams almost always turn out to have great significance in
the 'Verse (with the possible exception of the Cheese Man from
Restless!). Note that the music that we heard when Buffy went
into the trance and discovered Dawn was a recent addition to her
reality was also playing during Willow's vision, as far as I could
tell (don't have a tape of the older episode for comparison).
As for the meaning of the hallucination, I can only guess. At
least one demon was summoned by Willow, and I'm sure that's not
the end. This demon - perhaps the one we saw crawling through
the green stuff (leaves? poor reception made it hard to tell)
during her hallucination mysteriously collapsed into a shower
of sparks and appears to be gone. But the other appeared to be
carrying a woman through a portal of some kind. This demon and
the mystery woman may be out and about in Sunnydale, and a portal
could even still be open behind them. I wonder if this could be
the "big bad" we've been waiting for? Willow may want
to quit using magic, but I think she has opened a channel she
can't close, and I think dark powers of some ilk will be able
to use her through this channel, against her will. As for what
Rack is taking from her in return for the magical energy he provides,
here's a theory: it's a bit of the fabric of Willow's universe.
Perhaps the source of magic is in another dimension, and for a
little of it to come here, a little of this dimension's essence
must go there. Willow would be giving Rack permission to take
a little bit of this essence from herself and transfer it over
to the other side in return for magical power. (I am inspired
here by Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy and the way
Dust could flow around and could drip out of holes cut between
dimensions, plus the Fray comic which implies that all magic will
be banished from the Buffyverse at some point. There has to be
a good reason magic is gone, and if using it cause bits of the
universe to be leached away or exchanged for bits of a demon-verse,
that would explain why getting rid of magic was necessary. Let's
just hope things don't end like the Pullman books - I would hate
to see Spike and Buffy end up like Will and Lyra).
I'm also wondering about the strange way Willow traveled from
location to location instantaneously during her hallucination.
Looked kind of like teleportation. Very interesting indeed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Wrecked (spoilers)...Followed by thoughts on Willow
-- Caligo, 06:54:55 11/28/01 Wed
Long straight blond hair...hmmm...candidates?
The missing part of Buffy. Willow has wanted to bring Buffy back
fully, and maybe she had unconsciously sent the demon to go get
it.
Joyce? I doubt it, Joyce not only died naturally but she was bound
for heaven.
Glory. Maybe. After all Willow did take Tara's sanity back from
Glory. Willow for all her power is a very sloppy spellcaster,
perhaps she brought out more than Tara and thus a part of Glory
resides in her. The Demon is just bringing it to fore-front. I'm
probably stretching here but Rack did say that Willow tasted like
strawberries which are red. Glory's color of choice? Red.
Darla. I really can't work on this theory too much because I haven't
been watching Angel. From what I understand Darla sacrificed herself
for her and Angel's baby. She does have that whole blond thing
going for her.
Finally, the blonde could be Tara. Willow has been wanting Tara
back and it's been evident all episode (as indicated in the whole
animation of Tara's clothes). Perhaps the demon that Willow summoned
has taken Tara and spirited her off somewhere. The next new episode
might have Tara missing. Willow will have to "find her"
as she "always will" and probably use magik to save
her.
Also, I really don't think that Willow needs to give up all magik,
just the darker stuff. She has the natural power in her but she's
been focusing on dark magiks, taking magiks from something outside
of herself. She doesn't believe the power is in herself, which
is why she fell so quickly into Rack's clutches. Willow doesn't
need to learn how to live without magik, she need to learn how
to use it properly, sanely, safely, naturally. Right now she has
Amy representing what can go wrong with magik. On the otherhand,
Tara shows the proper use. Tara doesn't try to claim more than
she has, she doesn't abuse it. Willow was all worried that Tara
didn't know the real her, but Buffy pointed out that Tara wanted
Willow to stop. Tara met Willow because of magik, yes, but it
was Willow's heart and soul, her willingness to give Tara a place
to belong that Tara fell in love with. Tara doesn't want SuperWillow,
she wants the RealWillow. Willow is convinced that RealWillow
is the awkward girl she was in high school, she fears it (I won't
bore you and post up the Willow "Restless" dream). But
Willow has never given herself a chance to be the RealWillow.
She has always defined herself through other people, particularly
romantic interests. She started off trying to make herself the
perfect girl for Xander, acting geeky and laughing at his jokes.
Noticed how quickly her persona changed when being courted by
"Malcolm." Oz comes into the picture and she's now defined
by her "cool, older, guitar-playing" boyfriend. Oz did
try to be great to her, constantly reassuring her, accepting her
oddities (she did accept his), but notice when Veruca started
coming around, she reverted back to bookish-Willow. When Oz left,
she turned to magik and eventually Tara. Once again she was now
defining herself by her magikally-inclined girlfriend, throwing
herself into magik, realizing the power it has and falling prey
to something bigger than herself. Willow should have learned from
EvilWillow how easily she can fall prey to darkness. This season
Willow is going to learn her limitations and she's going to finally
see herself as herself not Xander-Willow, Evil-Willow, Oz-Willow,
Tara-Willow, or even Buffy-Willow. Ok, so she won't be able to
do the cool things SuperWillow did, but I think she'll find she's
really a lot more powerful than she's ever believed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I was sure she had curly hair...! -- RH, 09:16:39 11/29/01
Thu
I too, was intrigued by the whole "demon coming through the
portal carrying some long, curly-haired blonde" - (I rewound
a few times at the end, and yes, her hair is curly). I was particularly
mindful since Willow's reaction to the scene was so violent, and
Rack's response was so malevolent. I thought the "girl"
in question might have been Buffy, seeing as Willow had brought
her back from the dead, but Buffy has had straight hair for some
time now. I think the curly, blonde hair is definitely significant.
The only "dead" characters I could think of who had
long, curly hair were Joyce, Glory, and (flash-back) Darla. Even
though Joyce's body had been resurrected by Dawn and Spike, I
ruled her out because I'm assuming that she went to "heaven"
- a nice, normal lady like that deserves to! And I'm not sure
that Darla was a reasonable guess because to my mind she seemed
to have worked out her own redemption through her "change
of heart" and sacrifice. I also didn't want to think about
it being Glory because basically - Joss has "been-there-done-that"
and why would he do that again? There is a slight possibility
that it could be one of the other 3 "hell-gods" associated
with Glory, (are they triplets? Who knows...)
My only other thought was that this is a completely new "big
bad". Anyway, my concern is that we saw (in Willow's "trip"),
that the demon was carrying a human body - (it looked like a girl
to me) - through the woods, possibly hiding it. The demon then
appeared for real, (having been summoned). We know that the demon
brought something back with it, (hey, something came back with
Buffy, right?), so there is DEFINITELY someone out there that
Willow and the SG are going to be confronted with in the near
future.
Now, we've heard of demon's "hitch-hiking" through the
dimensions, (that "evil" thing came back with "good"
Buffy). Does this mean that a "good thing" could have
come back with this hell demon? It didn't look like the girl was
hitch-hiking, the demon looked as if he was intentionally bringing
her through, unless... what if Willow had called back the girl,
and the demon hitch-hiked with her? Hmmm... but Willow killed
the demon, and we know that the only way Buffy could get rid of
her hitch-hiker was to kill it herself - if the "summoner"
(Willow) did it, Buffy would have died too, so maybe, by killing
this new demon, Willow also killed the girl and undid the summoning.
Oh wait, summoning is different then a spell isn't it, so the
same laws wouldn't apply... but they could! HA-HA! Yeah RIGHT!
Somehow I doubt it!
You just never know what ME will dish out next!
(Thanks for letting me ramble!)
Closing thought: Was Willow more frightened by the demon, or with
who it brought back with it?!
Stay tuned... MUAH-HA-HAAAAA!!! ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Thoughts on Wrecked and Why
I Now Understand Buffy -- Traveler, 22:39:55 11/27/01 Tue
I think I liked this episode better than most people, and not
because it was dark. Rather, I believe that this episode made
a nice coda to this part of the season (right before a long bout
of reruns). Before I explain that, however, let me do some character
analysis.
Ok, first off, we have seen three important sides to Spike.
Strong Spike: stands up to Buffy. Although her comments still
hurt him, he doesn't just lie down and take it.
Seductive Spike: tries to bring Buffy out of her shell, but it
utterly backfires. More on that Later.
Sensitive Spike: helps Buffy even though she is still rejecting
him. He is the one trying to talk sense into her, saying "Would
you would put your little sis in danger just to spite me?"
Also, when the demon attacks, Buffy runs to fight it, but Spike
runs to help the injured Dawn. Also, he seems to be the one who
stops and nods Buffy towards the sobbing Willow.
Of course, Spike has always been sensitive, and we've seen a fair
amount of his seductive side. What's really changed is his sense
of strength. Just where has this newfound strength come from?
The answer is:
SEX
As Spike said before, the rules have changed. He no longer sees
himself as being beneath her. It's not that he has become "good
enough" for her. Rather, she has toppled from her pedastal
to reach his level. As he said, "I may be dirt, but you're
the one who rolls around in it." No longer is she unaproachable
and untouchable. Now when she tries to put him down, he no longer
believes her. Because now he doesn't see her as having the moral
authority to condemn him.
But, WHY IS BUFFY SO AFRAID of Spike?
This question has driven me mad since OMWF. Here's a hint: it's
not because she thinks he is beneath her. It's because she's afraid
he isn't. She desperately wants to be "good." She wants
to fight evil and have a clear conscience. But she isn't just
tempted by Spike; she is tempted by the things he does. She's
afraid that if she likes perverse, degrading sex, maybe there
are other "evil" activities that she would enjoy. To
her, Spike is Darth Vader saying, "join the Dark Side!"
If she gives in to him, she may lose herself and forget eveything
she stands for. She may, in essence, become like Willow, who spoke
of how magic freed her but hurt those she loved. Thus, the more
seductive Spike is, the more Buffy resists, because she links
sex with a total loss of control.
Also, I wonder if she is perhaps remembering Parker? He only wanted
her for sex and broke her heart to get it. Thus, when Spike says
"I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer (would
be to have sex with one)," Buffy freaks. Despite all that
has happened, she questions whether Spike's love is real. CAN
it be real, considering that he is a souless vampire? And of course,
there's Angel, the other vampire. In her mind, her relationship
with Spike must seem like a sad and twisted thing compared to
what she and Angel shared. No wonder she compares her feelings
for Spike to an addiction. What else could it be? She tells herself
she doesn't want Spike, but she can't stop herself from seeing
him anyway. Which is why the scene at the end is so perfect. The
garlic hung around the windows and the cross Buffy fingers so
nervously are not there to keep Spike out. They are there to keep
Buffy in. They are the visual representation of how Buffy is trying
to repress her feelings, and thus makes a prison out of her own
room (more house imagery, anyone?). The contrast between Willow
and Buffy is so perfect. As others have mentioned before, Willow
is making mistakes because she has lost all control. Buffy is
making mistakes (like almost not getting there in time to save
Dawn), because she tries too hard to maintain control. So yes,
Buffy hasn't grown as much as we hoped, but something tells me
that she can't stay in stasis forever. Spike has already shaken
her pretty badly, and I can only see that trend continuing.
One last thought on Willow. She was upset when she found out that
Buffy was in Heaven, but that was not nearly as close and personal
as nearly getting Dawn killed while she was high. That one injury
suddenly pushed all her pasts wrongs into her face, and I think
that her reaction was absolutely in character. However, I will
bet money that this is NOT the last time we see Willow use magic...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My Thoughts on Wrecked and Why I Now Understand Buffy
-- John Burwood, 23:57:54 11/27/01 Tue
Good thinking, & if Buffy fears losing control could lead her
into darkness, she is right to do so. I read some posts saying
giving into sexual passions is healthy. Which is garbage. It is
dangerous & unhealthy. Faith said Buffy was all about control,
meaning self-control, & she was right. Buffy - as opposed to Faith
- tries to do the right, the moral, the responsible thing - and
morality & responsibility are totally about staying in control
of your feelings. Neither come from passion or instinct - only
from self-control.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: My Thoughts on Wrecked and Why I Now Understand
Buffy -- Tillow, 06:51:12 11/28/01 Wed
Wow. Interesting perspective. I'd offer an alternative. I'm not
so convinced all the tension Buffy is feeling is about the sex
with Spike. I think she was lulled into a safety zone with Angel
because after he went evil and all they couldn't have sex. Maybe
it was OK for her to love a vampire if there was no sex involved.
But with Spike she could have both. Love and sex. And because
of his cocky nature, he won't let her forget her fears about sex.
That's what their relationship has always been about, Spike challenging
her.
I disagree that morality and responsibility are about staying
in control of your feelings. I think living a morally responsible
life is more about being open and honest with your thoughts and
feelings at all cost to yourself. And loving is about knowing
when it's safe to let go with another. Buffy is not doing that.
She not being honest and she can't let go. If she keeps it up,
she will be very lonely for the rest of her possibly short-lived
life. I think that's a high price to pay for "staying in
control" of your feelings. I wouldn't wish that for our heroine.
:(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: My Thoughts on Wrecked and Why I Now Understand
Buffy -- Malandanza, 07:42:57 11/28/01 Wed
"Good thinking, & if Buffy fears losing control could lead
her into darkness, she is right to do so. I read some posts saying
giving into sexual passions is healthy. Which is garbage. It is
dangerous & unhealthy. Faith said Buffy was all about control,
meaning self-control, & she was right. Buffy - as opposed to Faith
- tries to do the right, the moral, the responsible thing - and
morality & responsibility are totally about staying in control
of your feelings. Neither come from passion or instinct - only
from self-control."
I think I'm the only other person on the board who will entirely
agree with you on this one.
In the past ( Bad Girls and in the first episode of Season 5)
we have seen what happens to Buffy when she allows her control
to slip away. The Slayer begins to take over and the girl fades
into the background. Huntress Buffy from the beginning of Season
5 was Buffy at her most disturbing. So I think the final scene
was more about keeping the Slayer in than in keeping Spike out.
Sexual restraint is part of keeping the Slayer in check. We know
from Faith that slaying makes her "horny and hungry"
(and Faith had sex with Xander only after she failed to get a
kill -- leaving her unfulfilled) -- those words were subtly echoed
this episode when Dawn mentioned that she would leave a note on
the refrigerator for Buffy because that's the first place she
goes after a patrol.
Spike is treading on dangerous ground as he moves Buffy toward
her dark side -- would he even like a dark Buffy? Aren't her insecurities
and inhibitions part of the reason he is drawn to her (besides
the whole Angel inferiority complex -- which he brought up again)?
How would he like a Buffy freed from any sexual inhibitions and
getting off her kills? He could end up like Xander (and the nonexistent
"safety word").
So, leave the "healthy" experimentation with dark passions
to those without demons inside of them -- Buffy needs control
to stay Buffy just like Angel needs control to stay Angel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: My Thoughts on Wrecked and Why I Now Understand
Buffy -- dsf, 19:14:03 11/28/01 Wed
I agree that some degree of control is vital -- especially for
a Slayer like Buffy who wants and needs to live in the human world.
I'm not sure she needs to have as much control as Angel, who has
an entire, literal demon within him. But even if she did, Angel's
control isn't based on ignorance or denial. He knows who and what
he is, he knows just how dark he can be, and out of that understanding,
even acceptance, comes real control. I think Buffy needs a similar
understanding and acceptance of what she is before she can have
true control.
dsf
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: My Thoughts on Wrecked and Why I Now Understand
Buffy -- Cynthia, 19:17:54 11/28/01 Wed
So, Buffy should never have an orgasm because she might lose self-control
and therefore her morality and goodness.
You can only be a Slayer if you're the equalivant of a nun?
I mean, if sex in of itself is the corruptor. How would sex with
anyone be possible for Buffy?
And I don't understand, how is great, no-holds barred, completely
fulfilling, all-night sex between two people who are giving total
consent to each other perservse and kinky?
I think Spirk is stating a truth when he states that if he's dirt
then she loves rolling in it. If she were to believe that it,
at the least, just a basic life-affirming primal instinct, then
it would be. In short, it could be whatever she wanted it to be:
good, bad or netural.
Does a person have to be "in love" in order for sex
to be "a good thing".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> I'm with Cynthia -- pagangodess, 21:08:04
11/28/01 Wed
We could get into the whole society's expectations of women and
sex, a whole bunch of feminist issues that were covered here after
"Smashed", but lets not. In this day and age where women
are getting conflicting messages from all around about how they
should feel free to let out their sexual feelings and , otoh,
being real 'ladies' at the same time. I don't see anything wrong
with "great, no-holds barred, completely fulfilling, all-night
sex between two people, who are giving total concent to each other".
Don't tell me some of you did not wish for some of that Buffy/Spike
passion in your own lives. I know I did.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Is it healthy? -- vandalia, 01:00:27
11/29/01 Thu
Faith commented how slaying makes her 'hungry and horny.' Dawn's
noted that Buffy heads straight for the fridge after slaying.
Numerous indications that slaying gets Buffy's motor revving.
To me, there is nothing inherently evil or forboding about this,
it rather makes perfect sense.
Slayers slay. They kill. They destroy. Eating and sex are life-affirming
acts. Its a balancing act, perhaps one way to tie them to life
while still keeping them killing.
Why has noone latched onto the 'hungry' part of slayerness as
opposed to the 'horny' part and told us how sick and wrong it
is that Buffy wants to pig out after slaying and that it could
well make her a bulimic (or anorexic if she denies that urge)
and what kind of attitude is that showing young impressionable
girls already worried about their figures?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Balance -- Humanitas, 07:40:33
11/29/01 Thu
I think it's all about balance.
True, morality is all about self-control. To be good, you have
to be able to exercise control over your passions. Otherwise,
they get in the way of the rest of your life and, if you're the
Slayer, put others in danger.
On the other hand, denying the existance of passion is equally
dangerous. Anya was absolutely correct when she said that the
good ones are the ones who become realy dangerous when their control
finally snaps.
I think this may be where the "Oh, grow up" theme is
going this year. Growing up is about acknowledging who and what
you are, and finding a reasonable balance between passion and
control.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: It's not about the sex... -- Malandanza,
08:03:34 11/29/01 Thu
"So, Buffy should never have an orgasm because she might
lose self-control and therefore her morality and goodness.
You can only be a Slayer if you're the equalivant of a nun?
I mean, if sex in of itself is the corruptor. How would sex with
anyone be possible for Buffy?
And I don't understand, how is great, no-holds barred, completely
fulfilling, all-night sex between two people who are giving total
consent to each other perservse and kinky?"
If you don't think Buffy never had "no-holds barred, completely
fulfilling, all-night sex" with Riley, you should look back
at Season 4 -- there was hardly an episode where we didn't see
Buffy and Riley in bed together. Buffy and Spike may have torn
down a building during the throes of passion, but Riley and Buffy
raised the dead. This isn't about orgasms -- it's about Buffy's
descent into a degrading and abusive sexual relationship.
Spike has treated Bufy badly -- she should not be in a relationship
with him. Of course, others will say Buffy has treated Spike just
as badly (or worse) -- but does that make the relationship a good
one? If both partners are severely dysfunctional somehow the relationship
will work?
Spike's "creepy small talk" is what I dislike more than
the physical abuse. He's always had a gift for knowing where his
enemies are weakest emotionally, and in Smashed he used this talent
unsparingly:
SPIKE: You're a tease, you know that, Slayer? (Buffy rolls her
eyes, continues walking) Get a fellow's motor revving, let the
tension marinate a couple-a days, then bam! Crown yourself the
ice queen.
SPIKE: (yells) It's only a matter of time before you realize I'm
the only one here for you, pet. You got no one else!
SPIKE: (to himself) Nothing wrong with me. Something wrong with
her.
SPIKE: (walks beside her) You shouldn't be so flip, luv. BUFFY:
What are you gonna do, walk behind me to death? SPIKE: I'm just
saying things might be a little different. Spike walks around
in front of her again. They stop walking. SPIKE: You oughta be
careful.
SPIKE: Don't you get it? Don't you see? (sneering) You came back
wrong.
SPIKE: (grins) Came back a little less human than you were.
SPIKE: (grinning) Oh, poor little lost girl.
SPIKE: (drops to the floor) She doesn't fit in anywhere. She's
got no one to love.
SPIKE: I'm supposed to be treading on the dark side. ... SPIKE:
What's your excuse?
SPIKE: I wasn't planning on hurting you. (smirks) Much.
This is the woman he loves?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Why were Buffy & Riley so nauseating?
-- CaptainPugwash, 09:47:14 11/29/01 Thu
I don't think Spike is ideal for Buffy either (he is repulsively
sleazy), but at least the sex seemed good.
I never found Buffy & Riley that convincing as lovers; I don't
know if this was just bad chemistry or studio/television politics,
but their sex life lacked something. You had to *imagine* that
Buffy & Riley were having the kind of hedonistic 'physical' sex
that took place between Buffy & Spike, but there no direct evidence
of such a thing (perhaps to the contrary, what with Buffy sneaking
out to slay after whatever).
I don't know if anyone remembers the scene in "Thelma & Louise"
where Gina Davis & Brad Pitt go for it. Well, that it was happened
inbetween Wrecked & Smashed and Buffy LOVED it (hence all the
trauma).
Maybe Riley & Buffy did that too, but it was too innocent, lacking
in detail (no awkward walking, no scratch marks, no knickers in
pocket...), and left to our imagination.
Now that the rules are relaxed a bit, maybe Buffy won't need to
possessed by Faith to behave a little 'dirty'.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: It's not about the sex... --
vandalia, 13:24:41 11/29/01 Thu
Once again, I'm going to have to disagree with you, Mal.
f you don't think Buffy never had "no-holds barred, completely
fulfilling, all-night sex" with Riley, you should look back
at Season 4 -- there was hardly an episode where we didn't see
Buffy and Riley in bed together.
No holds barred? Nope. Look what happens when Faith approaches
Riley for some 'do whatever you want to me' sex when she's possessing
Buffy's body.
Faith: So. . . how do you want me?
Riley: (sitting on the edge) How do I . . . ?
(Still on hands and knees, she turns around and slithers up to
him, wrapping her arms around his neck.)
Faith: Yeah. What do you wanna do with this body? What nasty little
desire have you been itching to try out? Am I a bad girl? Do you
wanna hurt me?
(Riley is giving her a serious look.)
Riley: What are we playing at here?
(Faith drops her arms and pulls back a little.)
Faith: I'm Buffy.
Riley: Okay. Then I'll be Riley.
Faith: (in a huff) Well, if you don't wanna play--
(She turns away to get off the bed but Riley catches her arm and
pulls her back to him.)
Riley: Right. I don't wanna play.
Riley doesn't know its not Buffy. Riley apparently has some lines
he won't cross in the sack, whether his partner wants to or not.
You can argue whether or not this is good or bad, but you can't
argue its no-holds-barred.
Completely fulfilling? Then why is it after their lovemaking for
almost the entirety of season five (that they're together) she
keeps having to go out and slay something before she can get to
sleep? What else is she looking for that Riley's not giving her?
What else is Riley looking for (in the vampire trollops) that
he's not getting (or refuses to get) from Buffy? There isn't complete
fulfillment going on here on either side. Riley's approach to
Buffylove reminds me of Robert De Niro in _Analyze This_ when
he's discussing why he has to have a mistress. He likes oral sex.
Billy Crystal asks him why he doesn't have his wife do it. De
Niro's character replies, 'Those are the lips that kiss my children!'
in an utterly appalled for even suggesting such a thing way. Riley
appears to be a bit Victorian in his approach to Buffy. Does he
respect her or does he put her up on a pedestal from which he
won't allow her to get down and 'dirty' herself with fulfilling
his 'base desires' and in return refuses to accept that she might
actually want to get a little 'dirty' herself?
As far as the all-night sex, yes we saw that, in the episode both
of them are being forced to keep having sex by the ghosts of sexually
repressed teenagers. In other episodes, we see Buffy calling the
sex 'nice' or 'relaxing' or wanting to have another go while Riley's
laughing in amused disbelief. Even Parker comments on Buffy's
'stamina' (and earns himself a punch in the nose from Riley).
I honestly don't think Riley could keep up with her, through no
fault of his own. Reminds me of the essay 'Men of Steel, Women
of Tissue Paper' written a few years back on the logistics of
Superman's love life (or necessary lack thereof).
Buffy and Spike may have torn down a building during the throes
of passion, but Riley and Buffy raised the dead. This isn't about
orgasms -- it's about Buffy's descent into a degrading and abusive
sexual relationship.
They weren't dead, they were sexually repressed. The crazy religious
woman who ran the shelter for them thought they were dirty and
degrading for having sexual thoughts or vanity and punished them.
(Come to think of it, the vine motif there was rather eerily reminiscent
of the vision Willow was having on her first 'magic carpet ride.')
As for a 'degrading and abusive' relationship, well, I guess it
depends on what you consider degrading and abusive. The Christian
lady thought even thinking about sex was degrading. Obviously
Buffy's not quite that bad. But she does certianly seem to have
a bit of prude in her; witness the reactions to Anya's constant
reminders of the 'kinky' things she does with Xander, (i.e. 'we've
enjoyed spanking'). Spanking is hitting, no? Then why is it Anya
and Xander aren't considered to be in a degrading, abusive relationship?
They even call each other perverts in 'The Gift' when they're
having sex instead of looking for things to help save the world.
Does this mean they're dangerously co-dependent or addicted to
sex? If not, why not? And if they're not, how is it Spike and
Buffy are? I didn't see any abuse there (except maybe verbal).
Of course, they were fighting. Tempers were high. When people,
even people in love, fight, they tend to say hurtful things (that's
where the 'fight' part comes in). It doesn't necessarily mean
they love each other any less. So while you can argue Spike's
words are cruel and hurtful (and they are) you can argue the same
thing about Buffy's. Doesn't make either of them better, or right.
Is it a dysfunctional relationship at best? God yes. Show me one
relationship on this show that hasn't been. Hell, show me one
relationship in real life that hasn't been. Is it abusive? No
(at least not on Spike's part). Is it degrading? Again, depends
on what you consider degrading. Buffy apparently wasn't degraded
enough to stop after the first time. Or the second. Or the...
well, you get the picture. Actions speak louder than words.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drug-Magic-Madness -- Lucifer_Sponge,
20:21:26 11/28/01
I've got to warn you, I jump around a bit here, so you might just
wind up with a headache from reading this, rather than gleaning
any sort of sense or point. I think I wrapped it up rather nicely
at the tail end, though.
Alright, not that I want to piss anyone off, but for starters,
I'm going to draw a parrallel between magic in BTVS, and magic
in the real world.
Speaking as a "real witch," I can tell you that when
you practice magic, you occasionally get an itch to do a spell,
regardless of whether you really need to do a spell or not. There's
a certain feeling that you get when you practice magic... it's
not exaclty druglike (not in my case, at least), but it is exilerating.
You start to crave it, like one would crave sex of chocolate.
And that's just in the real world. I can only imagine what it
would be like, or feel like, to pull off such amazing supernatural
feats as Willow does. It couldn't possibly be anything other than
intoxicating.
(Ok, you can stop cringing now, I'm done drawing a comparison.
See? It wasn't that bad, was it?
I propose that Willow's addiction is two-fold... she's grown dependent
on both the power she weilds and the feeling she gets from weilding
that power. See, my theory is that Willow's eyes don't go black
because she's simply "using black magic." They go black
because she's channeling raw, primal forces.
Think of it this way... What would it feel like to have God swimming
around inside your head? That's what Willow's feeling. She feels
like God opens up inside her and then does things for her. That's
probably what Tara feels as well. Tara, however, practices her
craft in accordance to a deep, spiritual ethic.
Willow uses her power bluntly, and brutishly. She practices magic
like a science, completely ignoring the spiritual implications
because they don't fit into her paradigm. But what she fails to
realize is that just because she ignores them and discards them
doesn't mean that they're not there. I truly believe that Tara
could reach Willow's level of power, over time, but she'd harness
her talents properly.
Going back to my earlier theory of witches feeling like God climbs
inside them and does favors for them ...(Note: don't take this
too literally... I really do believe their power comes from inside
them, not from sentient, outer sources). Tara's beliefs cause
her to be thankful for the gifts she's granted, and to use them
with caution. Magic is sacred to her. It's still as intoxicating
to her as it is to Willow, but to her that's all the more reason
to use it carefully and sparingly.
Willow, however, has no beliefs. Magic is a tool to her. It lets
her do amazing things, and it makes her feel amazing when she's
doing them. She's not grateful because there's nothing to be grateful
to. It's all her. Therefore, she uses it as often and as much
as she can... no matter how petty or pointless the task.
What I think Rack does is simply open up the ecstatic feeling
that magic creates. Again, think about the God thing. The human
brain isn't capable of making sense of God... Witches are no exception.
They cast a spell, they know the otherworldy power is there, and
they use it to the best of their ability. But Rack doesn't really
get his clients to use the power. He just lets them feel it. Therefore,
they are bathing in something they have no comprehension of. They
just know it feels good. Any magical effects (teleportation, thaumugenisis
revisited, etc) are a result of the accessed ecstasy running rampant
because the witch has lost all conscious thought or awareness
of what's going on. He or she is "in the moment," unaware
of what his or her power is doing, but glad it's doing something
because it feels rrreeeaaallll nice.
Ok, what this all boils down to is this: Drugs make you feel like
a God, but magic quite literally turns you into one. So in this
sense the writers aren't just using magic as an incredibly obvious
metaphor for drugs. They're throwing Willow into something more
exotic, more intense, more dangerous than any drug could ever
be.
So that's my two (hundred) cents.
~Sponge
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Drug-Magic-Madness -- maddog, 20:34:35 11/28/01 Wed
While I can't balk at your comparisons I will say that I've listened
to interviews where the writers talk about doing minimal research
on aspects of the show like demon names and wiccan practices.
So drawing any parallel is counterproductive because they didn't
try to be real to begin with...just believable enough to get people
caught up in the storyline.
I can follow your logic on Willow and it does make sense...however
I don't think Tara wants to be where Willow is in magic...I don't
think she ever wanted to be that far into it (the reasoning possibly
being just what Willow's going through now). I like your explaination
of Rack too. I could definitely see that as what's going on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Drug-Magic-Madness -- Lucifer_Sponge, 20:54:36
11/28/01 Wed
While I can't balk at your comparisons I will say that I've listened
to interviews where the writers talk about doing minimal research
on aspects of the show like demon names and wiccan practices.
So drawing any parallel is counterproductive because they didn't
try to be real to begin with...just believable enough to get people
caught up in the storyline.
Woops. I didn't mean for it to come out that way. I was making
a comparison not to validate what the writers were doing, but
to give people a better idea of where I was coming from with my
theories. I'm not the type who nitpicks over the "inaccuracies"
and "misconceptions." It's a tv show, for christ's sake.
It's just fun.
I just thought if I drew a comparrison people would understand
why I thought the way I did. I guess that didn't work out right,
but oh well. At least my other points got across.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Drug-Magic-Madness -- Slayrunt, 23:46:12 11/28/01 Wed
I understand and agree with you on general term.
Willow and Tara differ in the believe they hold. IMO you are exactly
correct about it being sacred to Tara and not to Willow.
In TR, when they wake up in the magic shop. Willow is baffled
about the magic "stuff" and books, but Tara states in
an excited and wonderus(sp?) voice;"This is a *real* magic
shop". She internally knows about magic and it's reality
(in the show sense), Willow is clueless.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Yeah, witches are real. Get a life before I turn you into
a rat. -- You Suck, 02:42:02 11/29/01 Thu
ss
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Uh... Riiiight.... I'm going to say this one more
time... -- Lucifer_Sponge, 08:09:26 11/29/01 Thu
I did not draw a comparrison between realverse witches and Buffyverse
witches because I'm some whiny Wiccan upset over the "inaccuracies"
or delighted with the "realistic portrayel." It's just
a show, and I don't look to it for anything of that sort.
I drew the comparrsion only to point out that the writers were
not that far off when they used magic as a metaphor for drugs.
People on this board compare things in BTVS to all kinds of things
in the real world, but for some reason they get a irritated when
it comes to this particular subject. Relax, I'm not out to cry
about the writers and how "wrong they're getting it,"
or rejoice in "they're very accurate, well-researched approach."
I don't see them doing either, really, and I ultimately don't
care anyway.
I wrote what I did to illustrate a point... an idea. I did not
write what I did out of some sort of political - correctness agenda.
So calm down. It's all going to be ok.
~Sponge
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Nature-Magik vs. Science-Magik -- Caligo, 09:40:33 11/29/01
Thu
This is more something to ponder about than anything else...
Notice that when science tries to harness something that is totally
natural, such as a thermonuclear reaction, it is dangerous. Power
plants have different methods of protecting and containing the
energy, but if those methods fail, nuclear meltdown, destruction.
Yet the Sun and other stars like it burn without containment.
(But I also like to point out that the sun will eventual burn
out and go nova)
One could liken Willow to a nuclear power plant. Immense amounts
of energy produced in a short time. Yet at the same time, not
environmentally sounds. There's a breakdown of resources around
both. Willow's fail-safes are breaking. She's in for a meltdown.
And if Willow is a nuclear power plant, Tara would be hydro-electric.
She follows the natural current to put her spells in motion. Sometimes
the current is stronger and so is she, sometimes it weak.
All in her head .... -- source,
22:17:27 11/28/01 Wed
Interesting ideas posted by Harmony at JM.com
I've got a theory...
I mentioned before that I got weirder than weird feelings about
"Smashed" and from what I can see, also about "Wrecked".
Something was strange.
I rewatched Smashed to see if I could work it out, and my theory
is this :
The last two episodes are in Buffy's mind. She's either having
a prophetic dream, or she is imagining it, or the most intriguing
idea that she is in another catatonic state.
End of Tabula Rasa. Buffy is in the Bronze, staring at nothingness.
Spike comes along, and she looks at him, and turns away, with
no hesitation. He leaves. She's blank again. Just like she was
in WOTW.
Here's where I see us entering her mind, be it a dream, or catatonia.
Next time we see her, she's kissing Spike. She didn't look like
she wanted to race after him. That's what she probably wanted
to do. It emphasises the point that she is attracted to him.
Move on to the alleyway, with the mugging. Here's where I pieced
together my theory. For the first time, in a long time, she's
fighting humans. We know from "The Gift" that she has
an issue hurting humans, even if they are bad guys. Why? Because
look where Faith's mistake got her. She's in prison. She became
a broken, mentally unstable person. Buffy had first hand experience,
when they switched bodies. She found out exactly what the council
planned to do with her.
The reason Buffy didn't like Faith, is because she was everything
Buffy could become, and it scared her. The good and bad sides
of the Slayer.
I think she dislikes having to fight humans for fear of making
a mistake, and killing someone. She's objected to being called
Killer in the past.
Skim over the Spike scene. More on that later.
She gets home, and Willow has deratted Amy. Buffy is surprised.
That's BIG magick. Is she scared of Willow's magic? Is she scared
that one of her friends is becoming as dark as the Slayer in her
is?
She sees a news report about Rusty the security guy, being frozen.
I find it interesting that he was frozen. Wasn't Buffy mentioning
just that? "I touch the fire and it freezes me". It
was a diamond that was stolen. Not a scroll, or an ancient key.
It was a diamond, like ice. Also, Diamonds have flaws. A beautiful,
clear, glistening thing...with a flaw. Symbolism anyone?
Then she runs into Spike. I've noticed her scenes with him, in
these episodes, play out like her conscience. Spike, the demon,
sitting on her right shoulder, and Buffy, the angel, on her left.
Everything he says counters her previous statement. That's the
basis for an argument, but work with me here.
"That never ends well does it?" "It did the other
night"
You have Good "No. More. Kissing." Buffy and Bad "But
dammit, remember how good it felt?" Buffy.
Eventually she calls him a thing. That's how her denial is being
justified. He's a thing. Not a man. A demon underneath.
Then she lashes out, because the naughty wicked side of her is
winning the argument. But that bad side just hits back. With no
pain. It scares her that she might give in to her desires, and
that she'll become darker than she wants to.
The trio appear next, and could this be the prophetic bit? (I
mean, sure, we're seeing this in full Whedon humour) It gives
her a clue.
She's at the magic shop, and more discussion about Willow and
magic, that very obviously became about Buffy being seduced by
darkness. It's spelled out. She fears her friends finding out
about her latest chenanigans with yet another vampire. She fears
being seduced by darkness.
Then she meets Spike. A dolled up Spike at that. He's wearing
the face (and clothes) of the man who loves her enough to fall
into the Gap. To wear a lot of jewellery. The man who was tortured
for her. But he's talking like the Spike that got her freaked
out in FFL. The Spike she met in early S2. The killer of two slayers.
It becomes apparent that he can hurt her. Another of her fears/worries
is being realised.
"She always worries what she'd do when you get that chip
out of your head"
Not only is she faced with a chipless Spike, but it's a Spike
that she'd come to rely on, that she'd come to care about. Her
friend and occassional kissing buddy. It's going to be a lot harder
to kill him.
She's facing the prospect of a; being killed, or worse, turned
by him or b; Having to kill him, which means having to live without
him, something that would, I think, send her into a depression
that she'd struggle to come out of. Both scenarios are scary to
her.
Also, he tells her she isn't human anymore. That too is a fear.
Possibly her biggest. She came back wrong. If the fact that she
came back from heaven wasn't bad enough, she now has coming back
from heaven...wrong as a problem.
Then there's sex. That SHE initiated. She gave in. No amount of
denial, and fists is going to get her out of that fact now. Does
she fear giving in? Does she fear entering another relationship
with another vampire? Or another man? Does she see sex as the
end? Is Spike going to leave now?
If this is in her head, she's seeing one of her fears play out.
By now, she must be scared of giving herself so fully to someone,
knowing what that usually entails. Departure. Leaving. Gone.
Next morning, she brushes it off, almost as a one night stand.
Another fear? Becoming like Parker? Using him?
Spike then brings up his killing of Slayers. To me, it's a dumb
thing to say. Too dumb for Spike. The way to a person's heart
is not to brag about killing their kind. But isn't that how Buffy
sees him? Killer of slayers? It's something Buffy would say. She'd
bring it up. She is scared that should Spike get his chip out,
that she'd be number three on his list.
Again, the morning after is almost like a battle of conscience.
She gets engrossed in the kiss, until Spike mentions Slayers.
One point for Buffy's good "I had sex with a demon, oh god,
oh god, oh god" side, and the bad "But wow, he's naked.
Where's the chocolate orange?" side is squashed yet again.
All through "Wrecked", no mention is made of Buffy's
new found not human-ness. She'd want to push that to the back
of her mind, surely. To hide it away. Bottle it up, because she's
so good at that (Well, until Hinton Battle decides to show up
again).
Then to Dawn. Buffy is afraid Dawn will get hurt, due to Buffy
being the Slayer. But the scarier scenario here, is that Dawn
is hurt, by one of her friends. And she is. It plays out in front
of her, and scarier still, she just forgives Willow, and lets
Dawn go off with the demon she is trying to get out of her system.
The end of the show sees Buffy on her bed, holding a cross, with
garlic hanging up. To me, that just seems too ludicrous to be
real. It's the cliched vampire deterrents. The type of thing you
see in cartoons. Sure, a cross'll work, but Garlic? Has that even
been shown to work in the Jossverse? And even a cross is no match
for a master vampire with a desire for Slayer blood. Realistically,
Buffy wouldn't use garlic and crosses. She'd have a few dozen
stakes, a bottle of double blessed holy water, and a crossbow.
If it is a dream/catatonia, I'd think she was playing out her
fears. Seeing, in her head, what she was scared of.
- Becoming like Faith - Her friends descent into magical mischief
(Oooh, I like that) - Her attraction to Spike - Being a creature
of the darkness. She's denied it so long, and Spike wants to bring
it out of her - Having to kill Spike (Or anyone she relies on)
- Being turned, or killed by Spike (Or any vampire, but I think
Spike would be a bigger fear for her) - Being other than human
- Being left by the man she's involved with...again - Using someone,
making someone feel as she felt when Parker used her. - Being
involved with, having feelings for, the slayer of slayers, and
becoming his third - Dawn being hurt - Vampire deterrents that
would actually work (Okay, so that's me being sarcastic)
Even if it isn't a dream or whatever, it's interesting how so
many of her worries and fears happened in two episodes.
Views? Opinions?
Sorry about the extreme length of this thing.
~ Jo
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: All in her head .... -- Slayrunt, 02:21:15 11/29/01
Thu
Interesting idea, but I doubt it. I can't explain why I doubt
it, but I do. I also like it too!.
Just some food for thought. In 1st season ep "nightmares"
when everyones nightmares are becoming reality, Buffy had 2 or
techinally 3 come true. 1) the Master rises. 2) She is buried
alive. 3) She is vamped.
Obviously, the Master rising, being the seasons Big Bad, makes
sense. I find it interesting about the other two. We had to wait
5 years for them to raise their ugly heads again.
Finding oneself alive inside a buried coffin would freak anyone
out, I would think, but imagine if you had nightmares about it
and it came true!
Spike's line about biting Buffy had to freak her out as well,
although she has been bitten by three vamps by my count. The Master
just wanted to kill her, Angel out of necessity, and Dracula was
sampling. Spike, I think wants her alive though.
While I was typing that silly Angelus line kept jumping into my
head. "to kill this girl, you have to love her", still
waiting to see what that means.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A completely "What if"
Scenario to Wrecked! (Spoilers) -- Neaux, 05:04:21 11/29/01 Thu
yeah.. this is kinda lame doing a what if.. but I could not stop
thinking about it...
So what if during this Car wreck with Willow and Dawn.. that instead
of hitting a wall.. Willow didn't look where she was going and
Hit Spike in some manner that.. of course didn't kill him (he
is a vampire) but Possibly Wounded him?? Can Vampires lose their
legs?? or a spinter of metal through the torso or something..
to where it injured Spike enough to Get Buffy Worried..
The idea just seems that it would have been more interesting to
see Buffy's emotions towards Spike come flooding to the surface..
to see if she really did love Spike or not..
I dunno.. i guess i'm just rambling..
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A completely "What if" Scenario to Wrecked!
(Spoilers) -- Shaglio, 08:46:49 11/29/01 Thu
"Can Vampires lose their legs??"
I don't see why not. For the longest time Spike was in a wheelchair
after that burning church fell on him and Dru. That always bothered
me in that it seems like I've seen Spike and Angel get hit harder
than that and just shake it off. Unless Spike was faking the whole
time (I thought he was just faking the injury towards the end;
concealing the fact that he had healed fully).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A completely "What if" Scenario to Wrecked!
(Spoilers) -- Neaux, 09:21:13 11/29/01 Thu
ah very true.
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[> [> [> Losing legs -- FelipeRijo, 06:59:02 11/30/01
Fri
I've read somewhere else that vampires have extraordinary regenerative
powers, so in theory they can grow back lost limbs given enough
time
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OK, for those of us in the audience
who are me... (Spoilery questions for Wrecked) -- Puzzled Muggle
a.k.a. Trollop #1, 06:36:46 11/29/01 Thu
...can anyone tell a poor person who hasn't seen any of the episodes
(Oh, have I mentioned that before?) some things that are puzzling
her?
1. How does Spike know about the Troika?
2. What does Spike know about the Troika?
3. How does Spike know how to find the Troika?
Only one or two of the posters this week has commented on the
fact that Buffy may not be human. Most have concentrated their
posts on [a] the sex scene, and [b] the Willow/drug addiction
comparisons and use of magic. Which comments lead me to
4. Why do you intelligent people think that Buffy is ignoring
the little fact that Spike was able to hit her with no harm resulting
to him? (At least, that's the impression I'm getting from your
posts - am I wrong?). I would've thought that this would be of
far more concern than some hot and heavy sex with Spike - not
to make light of it, of course, but she can always tell herself
she isn't going to do that again, and think she means it, but
she has to be wondering what she is/has come back as, don't you
think? And how will she find out what she is? Blood tests?
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[> Re: OK, for those of us in the audience who are me... (Spoilery
questions for Wrecked) -- Cactus Watcher, 06:48:21 11/29/01 Thu
Warren the defacto leader of the Buffoons, built the Buffybot
for Spike last year. Therefore, Spike knows where his house is.
Spike has seen the Trio together in the basement of Warren's house
(I guess its Warren's), when he had Warren check out his chip
in Smashed to see if it was still functioning. Other than that
he does not know much because they are a bunch of geeks, and h