November 2001 posts
My thoughts for Lullaby
(spoilers) -- Slayrunt, 01:17:25 11/20/01 Tue
Darla is gone and I for one will miss her. If you knew my personal
history, you would understand that I have a soft spot in my heart
(and in my head) for the bad girl. You know the type, the crazy
psycho that if you knew the truth, you would run screaming far
away from her.
The beauty of a TV show is we, the viewers, get to see the truth
and watch the guy get sucked in to her world.
Darla is the quintessential bad girl. Never loving, never caring,
the perfect raw material for a vampire.
I have been in Angel's shoe's in the sense of having done things
I was deeply sorry about. Granted I never massacred a village,
or a convent or my family or.... I have done things that have
hurt myself and others that I care about.
Yet, I am still drawn to the Darla's of the world, beautiful and
bad, hot enough to burn you and they usually do. I try to avoid
these girls in real life, but I do enjoy the view from the safety
of my living room.
I would love to know the full story of her life. What happen,
if anything, to cause this lovely creature to reject the world
in such a way? What sad, terrible thing could create this monster?
We may never know.
Darla was unpredictable. Darla was exciting. Darla was fun, Yes,
in a homicidal way, but fun.
Darla was also sad and pitiful. I truly felt sorry for her. No
love, no family, no real friends. No redeeming qualities, but
did she redeem herself?
In the end she realized that she was wrong in the things that
she did and that she could never make up for them. She found something,
someone to love. Someone worth living for or more precisely dying
for. Did she redeem herself? If you are asking me, yes.
I now have hope for all the bad girls of the world. It's time
for me to leave the safety of my living room, run out and find
myself a bad girl and ... What am I thinking? I'll stay here.
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[> Re: My thoughts for Lullaby (spoilers) -- Wisewoman, 08:19:28
11/20/01 Tue
First, I agree with you that Darla has redeemed herself.
Second, does this mean that you now have empathy for those of
us who are Spike-obsessed?
;o)
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[> [> I've always had empathy... -- Slayrunt, 17:21:10 11/20/01
Tue
for those Spike-obessed.
I justed realized my Willow obession is an other bad girl thing.
Boy can I pick um!
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Guardian Angels God will lend
thee.....spoilers for Lullaby..... -- Rufus, 03:02:29 11/20/01
Tue
First I'd like to get out of the way the idea of Christian redemption
versus redemption in Fairy Tales which seem to be a theme in the
Buffyverse. Redemption isn't something owned by one religion or
culture but the tales told in Fairy Tales tend to show a different
idea of redemption......
"The word redemption should not be associated with Christian
dogma and theology, where it is a concept with so many connotations.
In Fairytales, redemption refers specifically to a condition where
someone has been cursed or bewitched and through happenings or
events in the story, is redeemed. This is a very different condition
from that in the Christian idea." The Psychological Meaning
of Redemption Motifs in Fairytales by Marie-Louise Von Franz
Why did I mention this, because of tonights Angel episode where
I think Darla became redeemed, not because she deserved it if
you weigh her deeds to her one act of sacrifice, but because something
happened that was beyond her control.
At a time when Angel and Darla had most to lose, Holtz appears
in their lives to remind them that they can do nothing to make
up for all the destruction they have done over so many years.
Holtz may eventually be proved to be evil, but he didn't start
that way. This man sang lullabys to soothe his daughter before
he cast her from the porch.
Sleep my darling Let peace attend thee All through the night
Guardian Angels God will lend thee All through the night
No forboding Will alarm thee All through the night
They will keep the peril from thee All through the night.
An Angel visited the family of Daniel Holtz bringing death and
torment. Darla and Angelus destroyed these people and caused Holtz
to make a deal with a demon. Except the demon hasn't been forthcoming
with the facts of the new world or new Angel.
Something has happened that could bring great joy or destruction
to this earth in the form of a child. Darla a prostitute facinated
by the painting of the Temptation of Christ, focusing on the Leper.
Could this be part of a woman who once was longing for a cleansing?
Or is it just her sick sense of humor?
The Darla of tonight was about to become a mother, she still didn't
want this child but for a reason that betrays her initial disgust
of her pregnant condition. Darla has been given the gift of love,
the ability to love.
Angel: You love it.
Darla: Completely...I love it completely.....I don't think I've
loved anything as much as this life that's inside of me.
Angel: Well, you've never loved anything, Darla.
Darla: That's true....400 years, and I never did....til now.
Darla, the prostitute that loathed men, families, the living,
has fallen in love with the life she carries. She says that it's
soul is what has caused this change in her and she doesn't want
to forget the love she has finally found, not in sex, but in Motherhood.
The translator Lilah used found a passage that says one thing......there
will be no birth.
Translator: For surely in that time....When the skies open....And
the heavens weep.....There will be no birth...only death.
Sleep my love And peace attend thee All through the night
Guardian Angels God will send thee All through the night.
Darla: Some mother...I can't even offer life.
Is this a Fairy Tale, a Passion Play? Darla wasn't deserving of
any breaks from life or Holtz, but for some reason the mystical
forces saw fit to grace her with a child, a child to this killer
of children. A soulless monster who only knew how much joy she
got from the pain and suffering of others. Her last moments bring
a light to her unlife, in the despair of being able to feel regret
and empathy for her victims Darla seemed to find a solution that
was unexpected.
Darla: This child....Angel.......This child is the one good thing
we did together.....The only good thing.....You make sure you
tell him that.
Darla no longer had to fear the loss of the memory of loving her
child as she thrust a stake into her heart to save her child and
die loving someone she would never meet. She did what a loving
mother would do, save her child.
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[> Re: Guardian Angels God will lend thee.....spoilers for
Lullaby..... -- Cactus Watcher, 05:28:48 11/20/01 Tue
Beautiful post Rufus; well structured, says a lot, makes an impact,
and doesn't waste verbage doing it. Thanks for sharing!
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[> [> nice job -- cknight, 06:10:27 11/20/01 Tue
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[> WELL PUT RUFUS, WELL PUT!!! -- vulpes, 07:20:21 11/20/01
Tue
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[> Beautiful, Rufus...*sniff* -- Wisewoman, 08:13:53 11/20/01
Tue
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[> [> That's lovely! Is it a direct quote from the episode?
-- Marie, 08:33:06 11/20/01 Tue
If not - where is it from?
Marie
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[> [> [> Do you mean the song lyrics? -- WW, 09:12:21
11/20/01 Tue
Are you the Welsh Marie, or the other Marie?
Those are the English lyrics to an old Welsh (I think) hymn, called
"All Through the Night."
;o)
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[> [> [> [> full lyrics to this "popular variation"
of "ar hyd y nos" (still spoilers) -- anom, 12:11:10
11/20/01 Tue
There's more to each verse of the lyrics in Rufus' (amazing, Rufe!)
post. I knew the music but not the words, which I found at this
page. It has the original Welsh lyrics, English & German translations,
& several other versions, incl. the one Holtz sang, which it calls
a "popular variation":
Sleep my love, and peace attend thee All through the night; Guardian
angels God will lend thee, All through the night, Soft the drowsy
hours are creeping, Hill and vale in slumber steeping, I my loving
vigil keeping, All through the night.
Angels [hmmm...] watching ever round thee, All through the night,
In thy slumbers close surround thee, All through the night, They
should of all fears disarm thee, No forebodings should alarm thee,
They will let no peril harm thee, All through the night.
My take on the ep's use of this song is that Holtz' singing it
in Caritas implies that he thinks what he's about to do will in
some way bring peace to his daughter's spirit, or at least put
to rest the last memory of her as a vamp that he carries with
him--"it's all right, papa will take care of it." And
of course, it gives the writers a way to clue Lorne in to what's
about to happen so everyone can "Run!" Nice dovetailing
there. Also a good parallel btwn. what Holtz had to do to his
"daughter" & what Darla did to save her baby.
For anyone interested, the page w/the lyrics (& links to the melody)
is on an international folk song website (which says "All
Songs are Y2K Compliant many areY1Kcompliant"--click on that
& check out the cartoon at the bottom of the Y@K rant).
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[> [> [> [> [> Oh, hide my head in shame!!!! --
Marie, 01:55:35 11/21/01 Wed
Or should I say "Shoot me, mount me, stuff me!"?
Ar hyd y nos! I can't believe I didn't twig! My only excuse is
that I've never heard it sung in English, and when I sing it in
Welsh, er, well, it's in Welsh, and you don't translate as you
sing, do you?
It's a beautiful hymn, though, in any language!
M
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[> [> [> Sorry -- Rufus, 11:03:27 11/20/01 Tue
Almost all the quotes were from taking notes from the show using
the closed caption and my ears when the cc was wrong.
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[> Just reading your post made me well up again! -- Dichotomy,
11:43:11 11/20/01 Tue
Great post Rufus! I just moved and was offline for a while. I
couldn't wait to get back on so I could read all the thought-provoking
insights on this board, and yours was a nice way to come "home."
That Darla chose to stake herself to save her baby was surprising,
heartbreaking and touching. And the fact that I felt this way
about a character I never had much sympathy for or attraction
to speaks highly of the writer, methinks.
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[> Just reading your post made me well up again! -- Dichotomy,
09:35:42 11/21/01 Wed
Great post Rufus! I just moved and was offline for a while. I
couldn't wait to get back on so I could read all the thought-provoking
insights on this board, and yours was a nice way to come "home."
That Darla chose to stake herself to save her baby was surprising,
heartbreaking and touching. And the fact that I felt this way
about a character I never had much sympathy for or attraction
to speaks highly of the writer, methinks.
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The Lighter Side of No Mercy
(spoilers for Lullaby) -- Cactus Watcher, 06:18:21 11/20/01 Tue
OK, I'll miss Darla a little. But, honestly, when she stakes herself,
my instant reaction was surprise over the plot twist, "Oh,
that's what the prophecy means," and certainly not sympathy
or shock that she'd died. People will disagree, but for me Darla
(as many people feel about Riley) was a fairly weak character
played by a weak actor.
So what does 'no mercy' mean? Obviously, Holtz wants to wait until
Angel fully appreciates what it means to have a child, then take
it away from him. But, last night in the glow of having a charcter
I wasn't fond of removed from the show, I was thinking other things
'no mercy' could mean:
Holtz will wait until Angel has spent a couple of years changing
poopy diapers, then stake him.
Holtz will wait until after the kid has spent his teenage years
back-talking Angel, and is within minutes of the realization that
his father knows something after all. Then Holtz will stake Angel.
Holtz will let Angel fall in love with Cordy, then let him live.
Holtz will encourage Wesley, to give Angel long narratives on
translation as the the W & H translator wanted to do with Lilah.
Holtz will encourage Loren to insist Angel sing more.
Holtz will encourage Gunn to bring his old friends by the hotel
more often.
Or worst of all, Holtz will bring back Darla... again!
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[> LOL. Agree with you on Darla esp -- Rahael, 07:23:05 11/20/01
Tue
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[> Re: The Lighter Side of No Mercy (spoilers for Lullaby)
-- Metron, 07:54:51 11/20/01 Tue
heh sorry, couldn't disagree with you more in terms of Darla and
the actress behind the fangs.
:)
But hey, that could be just me.
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[> Oooh! Mean! -- Marie, 08:04:53 11/20/01 Tue
Holtz will let Angel fall in love with Cordy, then let him live.
But it made me laugh, anyway! Guess our Cordy isn't a favourite
of yours, huh? Why? I love her!
M
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[> [> Re: Oooh! Mean! -- CW, 08:08:55 11/20/01 Tue
I do like Cordelia. But, I wouldn't want to date her!
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[> [> [> Re: Oooh! Mean! -- Marie, 08:18:45 11/20/01
Tue
If I was male, I would, these days - not High School Cordy, certainly,
but the Cordy we have now - absolutely!
M
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[> Re: The Lighter Side of No Mercy (spoilers for Lullaby)
-- Calluna, 10:52:41 11/20/01 Tue
Let's just hope that AtS doesn't turn into "Two guys, two
girls, a demon, a vampire and a baby."
And, off subject, has anyone else noticed that the supposed) background
noise in some scenes of AtS is so loud that you can't hear the
dialog? Especially just before Darla staked herself. I don't think
I heard a bit of the dialog because the sound of the rain was
so loud. Is this the same all over or is it just my TV or my WB
affiliate?
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[> [> Re: Yes! Hearing problems! -- Shiver, 12:38:53 11/20/01
Tue
It isn't just you. I miss half of the dialogue on Angel - don't
know if it's bad editing, or what, but the audio production SUCKS.
I have to wait until the scripts come out to find out what I missed.
Let's write letters!
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[> [> [> Re: Yes! Hearing problems! -- Calluna, 14:10:29
11/20/01 Tue
Yeah, I'm not nuts. I usually end up turning on the closed captioning
to see what people are saying. You would think that if it were
audio production problems, then there would be similar problem
on Buffy? Maybe it's a conspiracy by the WB.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Yes! Hearing problems! -- Cactus Watcher,
14:33:23 11/20/01 Tue
There is a problem on Buffy! Since season 1 ep. 1. everything
has been consistantly high-quality with Mutant Enemy except one
thing... diction! Scarcely an ep. goes by without something being
said that's incomprehensible without watching over and over or
resorting to the scripts. It was especially bad in the beginning
when Joss Whedon was literally inventing highschool slang on the
fly. My biggest gripe about Emma Caulfield, an otherwise fine
actress, is that she is frequently the Scooby Most Difficult to
Understand.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes! Hearing problems! -- pagangodess,
19:56:37 11/20/01 Tue
I agree with you about bad audio, and it goes for both shows.
I always found Giles the most difficult to understand and not
just because of his British accent.
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My perspective, and an announcement
(spoilers for "Lullaby") -- dsf, 10:52:44 11/20/01 Tue
I may never be quite this vulnerable to a story again.
First, I have a happy announcement (for anyone who read my comments
on Darla and that pregnant glow): my twins, Brian Nathaniel and
Naomi Starr, were delivered by c-section a week ago (6:43 PM and
6:42 PM respectively, and I was back in recovery to watch "Tabula
Rasa" with my husband at 8 PM!) They're doing very well,
though they have to stay at a special-care hospital nursery for
another couple of weeks. They were delivered at 33 1/2 weeks because
Brian was showing heartbeat decelerations when I had contractions.
These days that's early but not super-early. They each weighed
about half what a full-term baby would weigh, and so far there
have been no problems.
But can you imagine how grateful I was last night, watching "Lullaby",
that they'd already been safely delivered? I think if I had still
been carrying them, worrying constantly that something would go
wrong (I'd been on bed rest to prevent preterm labor for a month),
I'd have fallen apart when it looked like the baby was doomed.
As it was, I cried through most of the episode. I think I started
crying for Darla, rather than Holtz, with the scene where she
reveals that the baby's soul within her is acting as her soul.
(Remember how she held on to her anger at Drusilla for turning
her, even though her soul was already gone, until the vampire
instincts and Dru's tears sank in? I cried then too.) At about
3/4 through the ep I thought, "What if someone staked her
-- would that save the baby?" Normally I keep thoughts like
that to myself, because I watch with my husband and neither of
us wants to be spoiled. This time, I was so upset about what was
happening that I blurted it right out. Oh, well.
I saw Darla look at the fire filling the room and felt sure that
she'd figured it out too. I thought she might run into the fire,
but that wouldn't have been safe for the baby. ("Uh, guys?
I just thought I'd dash in there and burn up; could someone come
in with me to grab the baby if this works?") I was proud
of her for doing it herself, asking for no help or comfort except
giving Angel the message to her child. There's a personality trait
that Darla had in all incarnations.
And I've never much liked the character, though I thought both
character and actor were about twenty times better on =Angel=
than they'd been on BtVS. But I couldn't resist any aspect of
the story or the performance last night.
I had no idea whether other viewers would be as blown away by
the emotional impact as I was; I knew I was about as un-objective
as I could be. So I've been reading here, eager to find out: was
that episode brilliant, or was it just the right story at the
right time for me?
dsf, now a mom
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[> Congratulations! And its not just you, that ep was brilliant
:) -- vandalia, 11:08:41 11/20/01 Tue
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[> Re: My perspective, and an announcement (spoilers for "Lullaby")
-- Kimberly, 11:08:48 11/20/01 Tue
Congratulations and good luck with your twins. I'm still assimilating
last night's episode, but I agree that parenthood makes it more
poignant. I was more emotionally impressed by Holtz, but that
may be because my son is six, and memories of labor no longer
have the immediacy you will.
Good luck on avoiding sleep deprivation and enjoy the kids. :-)))
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[> Re: My perspective, and an announcement (spoilers for "Lullaby")
-- VampRiley, 11:11:51 11/20/01 Tue
I thought the ep was brilliant. Extremely moving. Congrats on
the kids.
VR
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[> Blessed be both your babies, and congratulations. -- Wisewoman,
11:31:21 11/20/01 Tue
And as others have said, many of us cried along with Darla. It
was indeed a brilliant episode.
;o)
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[> Congratulations! You now hold the title... -- Dichotomy,
11:54:52 11/20/01 Tue
..that comes with more challenges, heartbreak, joy and importance
than any other---Mom! (That goes for Dad, too, although you get
bonus points for the physical challenges part.)
The episode was great, but I think you'll find that anything that
has to do with children will touch you a bit more deeply now,
even if it's a stupid sitcom or 30-second Kodak ad. It's okay,
here's a box of e-tissue to get you started. Ah, parenthood!
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[> Quik question -- vampire hunter D, 12:01:30 11/20/01 Tue
If you had had to stake yourself to get the kids out alive, would
you have done it?
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[> [> Re: Quik answer -- Kimberly, 12:49:44 11/20/01 Tue
At least in a normal delivery, there comes a point at which you
would do ANYTHING to get that thing out! (Including normally shy
and retiring women threatening murder and mayhem to get approval
to push.) (I may not be speaking for dsf, just another woman who's
been through the process.)
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[> [> Re: Quik question -- dsf, 13:07:07 11/20/01 Tue
Yes, if (1) I knew I'd lose my soul if they died or were born;
and (2) I had no one who would love me even without my soul.
So if it had been Drusilla, with a Spike who still loved her,
soul or no soul... I wonder what they would have done.
dsf
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[> [> [> Re: Quik question -- Kimberly, 13:13:26 11/20/01
Tue
Actually, I think Darla's case would be the harder: to sacrifice
everything for love without ever having received it? I would think
it would be easier to make that sacrifice having known love.
I do think that knowing that Angel would be there for the baby
and would love and raise it made it easier for her.
And that in no way desecrates her sacrifice. The one, truly good
thing she's ever done. And that was a salvation for Darla.
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[> Congratulations and all the best! :) -- RabidHarpy, 12:32:44
11/20/01 Tue
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[> wow. wow. and Wow! mazel tov! (spoilers for lullaby) --
anom, 13:40:07 11/20/01 Tue
I hope you & the babies (& your husband!) are all OK & recover
well. (They'll probably be fine--I was a preemie & spent my 1st
2 weeks in an incubator, & have had no major health problems.)
I can't even imagine what it must have been like to watch "Lullaby"
at a moment like that. I'm so glad your twins had already been
born! And y'know, I hope somebody from ME reads your post.
Yes, the ep was amazing. I never saw it coming. I had done some
speculation here on the effect of Darla's having a soul (though
not her own) in her, but the staking--outta nowhere for me, but
it made perfect sense. And only now does it occur to me, what
might having had its soul serve as the soul of a vampire do to
the baby?
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[> Talk about perspective! Good health to you and the twins!
-- Cactus Watcher, 14:00:57 11/20/01 Tue
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[> Congratulations.....:):):) -- Rufus, 15:13:57 11/20/01 Tue
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[> Congratulations!! -- LadyStarlight, 15:41:23 11/20/01 Tue
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[> Llongyfarchiadau! Congratulations! (from another Twin) --
Marie, 08:50:14 11/21/01 Wed
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[> Congratulations and best wishes to you all. :) -- Isabel,
16:46:49 11/21/01 Wed
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Justification for Darla's Miracle
Baby and Darla(Spoilers) -- LoriAnn, 13:12:51 11/20/01 Tue
Seems to me that someone has mentioned a cheesiness level regarding
Darla's miracle baby. I started thinking about this, and there
is a precedent for what has happened, at least, up to now. We
saw on Buffy that one night the sky opened and an Angel fell to
Earth. There was a great question about why this would happen.
The PTB took a hand and returned Angel to his life for their own
purposes. Why? Angel had repented of his evil, was working for
good, and was then, after losing his soul in an act of love, sent
to Acathla's hell by Buffy. He was returned to complete or solidify
his redemption and to be the hands of the PTB in working good.
So the PTB retrieved him from hell because he had begun an act
of redemption, but through no fault of his own, wound up in hell
anyway. Darla, on the other hand, was dead and brought back to
vindictive life by W&H. However, she eventually was willing
to die to save Angel("Trials"), and she even resisted
when Dru re-vamped her. Of course, then in her re-vamped state,
she was a real plague of evil. But when given the chance, when
she had a soul, she had, eventually, tried to do something to
redeem herself. Like Angel, she deserved another chance, but she
wasn't dead, but rather undead, soulless. To allow Darla to complete
her act of redemption, the PTB acted and caused Darla to conceive
by Angel. The baby's soul acted as Darla's own soul and gave her
the opportunity to perform a loving, selfless act, an act of redemption.
In loving the baby and ending her undead existence to save it,
Darla achieved, at least minimal, redemption. The baby is no more
or less a miracle than Angel dropping from the sky. The PTB, in
both cases, intervened to change the natural course of things.
Moreover, clearly,the baby has other things to do in the plot
and will serve other purposes, perhaps to catalyze Holtz's redemption
or damnation. Why Angel must continue to toil on in the vinyards
of the PTB is certainly a question brought up by Darla's "death
bed" conversion. The only answer is that his work, whatever
it exactly is, is not finished. How do these ideas affect Spike's
situation? That Spike loves Buffy seems clear. However, that isn't
entirely selfless, but being willing to protect Dawn at the potential
cost of his undeadness is selfless. At present, Spike has not
had the opportunity or the provocation to regret his vampiric
ways. He still doesn't have a soul, yet if we consider Angel's
and Darla's miracles as indicative of the way the PTB operate,
even if Spike backslides a bit in the meantime, eventually, the
PTB might very well give him that miracle opportunity to follow
up on a selfless act in a way that could mean his redemption.
A small PS: I was very impressed with Julie Benz's acting and,
of course, the writing in "Lullaby". I cried the first
two times I watched the ep and mist up every time I think about
it. It may be the demands of the role on her were less earlier
in BtVS and AtS, or perhaps her acting has impooroved, but in
last season's "Trials" and now "Lullaby",
she has been very impressive.
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[> Re: Justification for Darla's Miracle Baby and Darla(Spoilers)
-- ANON, 15:47:28 11/20/01 Tue
Simple explanation, cheesy or not: Archetype of the miracle birth
= birth of a hero
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Just saw Buffy -- phoenix, 18:15:43
11/20/01 Tue
and all i can say is WOW. JOSS GETS BETTER AND BETTER EVERY SHOW.
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[> Re: Just saw Buffy -- zilla, 18:25:24 11/20/01 Tue
Could it have been much better! I think Joss did a great job in
building up to it. What will happen when the rest of the SG finds
out?
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[> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- Restless, 18:25:27 11/20/01
Tue
Do you think B/S shippers will be happy, or disturbed?!
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[> [> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- DEN, 18:52:57
11/20/01 Tue
A good point. Apart from the Playboy-channel explicitness, coming
close to the line between erotic and pornographic, the link between
sex and violence couldn't have been more obvious. It was a LONG
way from Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Riley! But it's great to see Spike
back! Enough of Brad--let's have our vamps vicious!
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[> [> [> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- maddog,
08:08:36 11/21/01 Wed
I'm sure we can thank UPN for that erotic final scene. Cause you
can bet we don't see even half of that if the show's still over
on family friendly the WB. UPN lets him do what he wants...I think
the writers took that to heart.
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[> [> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- Mari_star_99,
19:15:43 11/20/01 Tue
WOW!
Joss is unbelievable! Forgive me if I'm not very coherent tonight,
I had to de-lurk. Wow! As a B/S shipper I want to say I thought
this was an obvious next step for them. Violent? Yes, but this
is The Slayer. Violence is passe for her. Remember she is "just
going through the motions". Unless Spike is involed. Then
there is passion.
CRUSH (Paraphasing I don't remeber the exact qoute) Willow: Did
you do anything to make him think you were interested in him.
Buffy: Well I beat him up a lot. With Spike that's like third
base.
Buffy is in serious denial of her feelings for Spike. There was
no way she ask Spike out for dinner and a movie. Allowing herself
to be caught up in the heat of the moment lessen the guilt over
being attracted to the "Bad Guy" I admit at first glance
violent vampire sex might look like a bad way to start a relationship.
However, I think that Spike can can be good for her. A growing
experience for her. If Spike also starts to grow it may work out.
I think the real questions is weather and how much he can change.
I he is "infected with goodness". I did sense his heart
was in it when went for the little snack tonight. ...And was it
just me or did that girl bear some resemblance to Buffy. I must
go, gather my thoughts. There was so much in this episode.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Opps above. I mean His heart WASN"T in
to it. eom -- Mari_star_99, 19:20:41 11/20/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- Tillow, 19:25:24
11/20/01 Tue
Thrilled here!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- Tellab,
19:44:05 11/20/01 Tue
Still reeling. Buffy misbehaves! And Spikey gets a new nickname,
Captain Peroxide! LOL!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> DISTURBED! -- Rochefort, 20:11:29 11/20/01 Tue
Definitely disturbed. I wanted them to hook up but did it have
to be so bloody sick all the way around?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: DISTURBED! (spoilers) -- Dariel, 20:23:53
11/20/01 Tue
I found it pretty disturbing too. On the other hand, it's not
surprising that Spike would have so much pent-up rage at Buffy.
He's been her doormat for a long time. As for Buffy, she's pretty
conflicted--still wants to be a nice, shining good girl.
I do hope they can calm down a bit and be a bit nicer to each
other. A very hot sex scene, in any case.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: DISTURBED! -- Restless, 20:24:03 11/20/01
Tue
I felt same but will rewatch. Intense foreplay. Not sure what
it means yet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: DISTURBED! -- Tiger, 19:14:51 11/21/01
Wed
It means the writers have been hearing all the BS about B/S hooking
up, pro and con, and decided to upset the hopes of both sides
of the issue. You don't want Buffy to hook up with Spike? Too
bad! You want Buffy to hook up with Spike? Be careful what you
wish for! This is typical for this show, which defies expectations
constantly. Now where do we go from here?
If you were hoping for a June wedding, you are deluding yourself.
It is obvious that this is not a healthy relationship. The only
question I have is how final the divorce will be. I'm betting
not too final, if only because Spike is the most complex character
on the show and one the writers obviously like to write for -
and I don't see them going the other way and renaming the show
"Spike the Vampire."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- sl, 22:11:15 11/20/01
Tue
what else could it be with Spike, happy and disturbed!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Just saw Buffy**spoilerish** -- Talia, 22:46:16
11/20/01 Tue
Mostly disturbed, but still hopeful. I suppose we shouldn't be
surprised at the violence; Spike's previous girlfriends were Drusilla
and Harmony, for heaven's sake! Plus Buffy's behavior towards
him hasn't done much to bring out his gentle side. Buffy meanwhile
still has divided feelings on Spike. Being a B/S shipper I feel
that the side of love is stronger, but she doesn't realize that
yet. Also, for the first time since Angel she has a guy that she
doesn't have to watch her slayer strength around. Spike can take
a beating. How much do I love the visual metaphor of the house
collapsing around them? I would not have chosen for it to happen
this way, but the air of desperation and doom that has surrounded
the B/S moments this season rings true to the characters and situation.
Beautifully done, Joss and Co. The hopeless romantic in me is
angry (I'm a sap: when I see William the Bloody Awful Poet I just
want to give him a big hug. I'm rooting for Spike's road to redemption,
not a slide into renewed violence), but as usual this show is
so good I have to put aside my opinions and give it a big ol'
WOW!! Where do we go from here? There's a long way down to slide,
but a lot of up to climb as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Is it possible to give the actual writer credit? Joss doesnt
do every show. 9(nt) -- Bilbo Bagins, 01:28:47 11/21/01 Wed
ss
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Absolutely! :) -- RH, 07:42:43 11/21/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Is it possible to give the actual writer credit?
Joss doesnt do every show. 9(nt) -- Q, 21:01:58 11/21/01 Wed
I've heard that Joss pretty much develops the entire story and
where he wants it to go all on his own. He then assigns writers
certain episodes--there job is to add dialogue, cute jokes, and
basically all of the fine brush techniques that bring Joss' vision
to the screen. If this is the case, he does deserve most of the
credit, unless your complimenting a certain exchange of witty
dialogue or character quirk.
This is just what I have red somewhere though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look Who's Talking (spoiler for
smashed) -- Neaux, 19:57:02 11/20/01 Tue
Hey! its me! Actually its what I'm titling this little piece about
communication problems / failure coming to a head in this episode.
So this is what I gather from watching Smashed. The idea of lack
of communication or failed communication takes up the whole episode.
The Biggest example of this is Spike's determination to speak
to Buffy. He wants her to acknowledge their relationship and fails
through his many confrontations. So BAM! He does the practical.
He calls her on the phone. This is the biggest scene in the episode
(besides the climax... uh sorry for puns) because it perfectly
illustrates the idea of communication failure.
Spike does the most logical, civil and polite thing (for him anyway)
by calling buffy on the phone for a date/meeting. and even then
Buffy will not hear what he has to say and ignores the date. The
only way Buffy GETS the message is through a severe beating....
but on to the other examples with the rest of the scoobie gang...
Buffy (1) fails to tell Willow of her feelings in Willow's bedroom..
she puts it off for another time
Buffy (2) refuses Spike throughout the whole ep.
Buffy (3) refrains from calling Giles..
Buffy (4) only speaks to Xander and ANya about Willow's magic
problem and still wont confront willow yet.
Tara (1) wont speak to Willow, only to DAwn.
Willow (1) wont speak to anyone really For example, when you think
she is going to email Giles.. she doesnt.. she starts searching
the web through Magik.
Amy (1) misunderstands Willow's feelings about Tara and tries
to conjure a date at the bar.
Amy (2) wont talk to her dad yet.
Xander (1) only speaks about Willows' magic problem to Buffy ..
for the first time you get his opinion about the situation.. but
it is only after Anya speaks publicly about it.
anya (1) gets the importance of communication.. but still doesnt
get the Tactfulness of it.. heh..
I'm sure there are many other examples and more significance..
but its late for me and I couldnt sleep until I typed this all
out...
Anyone please feel free to elaborate on this or add more examples..
or give a deeper meaning to my ramblings..
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Good points -- Traveler, 20:30:35 11/20/01 Tue
I hadn't thought about the "lack of communication" theme.
I think you're definitely on to something there.
Another theme might be, "give yourself to the dark side!"
Muhahaha. Sorry. Anyway, Willow seems to have lost all moral bearing
and casts magic wantonly. Buffy is also pretty wanton with Spike.
Both really give no thought to the consequences of their actions.
Nor do they take responsibility for them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Good points -- DEN, 20:47:15 11/20/01 Tue
Both of the above postings are extremely perceptive. And the aabsence
of communication facilitates the "wanton" (excellent
word choice) behavior of Willow and Buffy, whose deep friendship
has been a lodestone, one of the major stabilizers in a situation
always on the verge of entropy. Now, no one is minding the store.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Good points -- Tellab, 21:06:13 11/20/01
Tue
Nor Dawn, save for Tara.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Communication 2 way street -- Neaux, 05:02:02
11/21/01 Wed
That is one of the major problems... It is that communication
is a two way street. One of actually talking and the other of
Listening.
and Listening is the Key.
The problem is that after OMWF.. everyone was able to hear what
everyone else had to finally say... and I think that frightened
the gang... so NObody wanted to listen to anything the others
had to say after that episode.
Hence the continued lack of communication.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Communication 2 way street -- RH,
07:55:21 11/21/01 Wed
"The problem is that after OMWF.. everyone was able to hear
what everyone else had to finally say... and I think that frightened
the gang... so NObody wanted to listen to anything the others
had to say after that episode."
...excellent points...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The perspective of one Buffy/Spike
shipper (Spoilers seasons 5 & 6) -- Traveler, 20:21:51 11/20/01
Tue
When Spike first started going all ga ga over Buffy, I thought
it was really funny. I had a little bit of sympathy for him, but
I didn't particularly care to see them hook up. However, after
he withstood torture on her behalf, I began rooting for him more
and more. Since then, he has saved her life and the lives of her
loved ones countless times with no expectation of reward. That
plus he's a hopeless romantic. How can you not want to see someone
like that get the girl?
So, OMWF should have been a wonderful episode for a Spike/Buffy
shipper, because we finally get to see them kiss. The problem
is Buffy's one little line, "this isn't real." In one
move, Joss gave us what we wanted most and made it almost worthless.
Buffy kisses Spike, but it doesn't mean she loves him.
Then, Tabula Rasa took things one step further. After this episode,
I was fully convinced that Spike was on the path toward some kind
of redemption and would eventually be someone that Buffy could
truly love. At this point, my biggest fear was that Buffy would
continue to abuse him.
And then came Smashed... which turned everything on its head.
Spike tries to isolate Buffy by telling her that he is the only
person for her. He immediately tries to kill a mortal when he
thinks his chip isn't working. Finally, he tells Buffy that she
isn't human and they have sex. But this sex isn't about love;
it's about lust and power and control. Once again, the writers
give us what we want and then make it worthless. No more redemption
for Spike. No love between Buffy and Spike. In fact, it is as
if the writers are telling us that Spike's love was never real.
Buffy tells Spike that he doesn't love her; he loves pain. And
Spike tacitly agrees with her! Indeed, he seems to be satisfied
with the physical relationship, just as he was with the Buffybot.
It's as if all the incredible things he did for Buffy, all the
really beautiful ways in which he proved his love for her, were
all a lie! All the growth and changes we've seen in his character
were erased in one episode. I cannot describe how much this fact
pisses me off. Someone please please tell me that I'm wrong and
there's something I'm just not seeing, because I can't stand the
way things are going. Which is ironic, considering that I am a
Buffy/Spike shipper.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- Restless, 20:32:12 11/20/01 Tue
I too had exact same conflict.
But I have to believe ME would not set up all of the tender, loving
scenes where Spike demonstrates true devotion to Buffy just to
have an abusive relationship between them. I think it's their
way of reconstructing a semi-healthy real relationship by exploring
this angle first. Spike isn't completely good or evil so the relationship
will have a long way to go to become believable and legitimate.
I hope this is a detour.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- Ramo, 06:17:42 11/21/01 Wed
As a B/S shipper, I was in denial for a while. I though Spike
might actually become "good", but later realized this
was probably only because of the fact that Spike is "Love's
Bitch".
Last season, the same issue arose with Buffy and Riley. Their
relationship became merely physical, and Riley had a little talk
with Spike about this. Spike's words:
"Sometimes I envy you so much it chokes me. And then sometimes
I think I've got the better deal. To be that close to her and
not have her... To be all alone even when you're holding her,
feeling her, feeling her beneath you, surrounding you, the scent
of -- no, you've got the better deal."
So Spike would like for Buffy to love him, but he'll settle. Buffy,
she needs an excape, and Spike is convieniently there, and Buffy
herself has clearly made this a lust/ hate relationship by initiating
the fighting. When Spike thought he had his chip out, he wanted
to be evil, but who knows if he really would have actually killed
that woman. This may be a very unhealthy relationship!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper
(Spoilers seasons 5 & 6) -- Spike Lover, 08:53:05 11/21/01 Wed
Have a little faith in Joss. You never know what he is planning,
but he knows that Spike is very popular.
Now, the reason why I love Spike is because he is "bad"
(or thinks he is.) Some women have a weakness for "bad".
But not a weakness for evil. He is also romantic.
What I see about the S/B relationship up to this point was, as
she told Spike, "What are you going to do, walk 2 steps behind
me?"
That is exactly what has been going on. They were not equals.
She was on a pedestal and she knew it. (Like when she was going
up the stairs in the final episode of last season, and he say,
"I know you could never love me.") Or in the alley scene
when she tells him that she does not want to "dance"
because he is beneath her.
By making it possible so that Spike could hit her into next week
when she beats up on him, they have made him an equal. That was
what he was getting at. Outside the museum, she told him that
he was an evil thing, and his reply was that (he) could change
and had, and was she successful in making herself believe that
he was a thing.-
Last night when he was telling her that she came back wrong, he
was not trying to isolate her (or maybe he was,) but mainly he
was saying, if I am a thing, so are you. Again, this puts him
as her equal. Healthy relationships must be based on equality.
Don't be depressed!! (At least about this.) Remember, as they
were explaining last week, if Spike "turned" completely
good and started trying to seek redemption for years of evil,
he would no longer be Spike, but a carbon-copy of (boring) Angel.
I too don't know if he really would have gone through with killing
that girl, I think he just wanted to test the chip.
I too fear that Buffy is only using Spike, though there is a chance
that at some point she will reveal a little feeling she has hidden
deep within her. I fear that Spike will get hurt. I continue to
wonder if Buffy is capable of loving anyone, (I have wondered
this for years) and now that she is back from the dead, I wonder
even more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Yeah, but what about...(Spoilers, Smashed) -- Dariel, 20:33:45
11/20/01 Tue
...the look on Spike's face when she, ahem, let's him in. He looks
totally surprised and adoring, and pulls her in to a kiss. In
fact, as soon as she started kissing him, he stopped with the
violence, while she was still throwing him around a bit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- pagangodess, 20:57:47 11/20/01 Tue
'She needs a little demon in her man'. Lets face it, otherwise
we'd end up with another Buffy/Riley rerun. I'm a huge Buffy/Spike
shipper, but I certainly would not want to see them all mushy
(eg.Something Blue). Besides, I remember Dracula saying that her
power was rooted in darkness (5x01). It may be they have found
some common ground.
And lets not forget, that Joss always has something up his sleeve.
He'll thow us for another loop again, before we even have the
time to recover from the previous numerous spins he's given us
this season alone.
Can't think any more, still reeling from the episode. Bravo, Joss.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- sl, 21:23:03 11/20/01 Tue
great post!! I so agree.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- sl, 21:30:43 11/20/01 Tue
oh yea I forgot about the look on Spike face, it was adoration
and making sure she wanted to. He stope being violent. But she
through him against a wall. He didn't know what to do , he was
so overwhelmed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- Deeva, 22:43:23 11/20/01 Tue
I can't say that I was disappointed with the outcome. Delightfully
surprised, maybe. I'm a huge B/S shipper, too. But it's not all
about the "mush" and oogly eyes (Yuck! That makes me
nauseous.)
Ahhhhhh, the genius of Joss. How when all us shippers out there
clamor for "Spuffy" and he gives us OMwF and that throw-away
"This isn't real" kiss. I can just see him now. "Yeah,
I'll 'em what they want and THEN some! Mwahahahahahaha!"
As for the sex, I agree that it was about the physicality of it,
the control, lust and power, too. But it could also be about testing
each other. The "We're already pushing it, why not see how
far this/you will go?" The pain/pleasure/love seem to go
hand in hand for vamps. At least with the relationships that we
see of Darla/Angelus/Drusilla/Spike/Harmony (Well, love seems
to only really apply to Spike and Dru, in this case.) Sadism is
a big part of how they all relate to each other. What other show
has so many references to S&M ? Maybe the sex was also about eliminating
an element to see what is truly there behind all the "dancing".
Is it real? Or is it just lust? I think it's more than lust but
I will go so far to say that this is "twue wuv" (Sorry,
watching too much Princess Bride and couldn't resist!)
And as for Spike's being seemingly satisfied with his physical
relationship with Buffybot. I didn't get that vibe. He was like
anybody with a new toy. You play with it and check out all of
the options. Then, when you've figured it all out and have seen
it's limitations. You start to think, "Now, why did I get
this again?" I'm not positive on how many days, if any at
all, passed before Buffybot's limitations became apparent to him
but he was not satisfied for long. In Afterlife, we see Spike
look at Alive Buffy and for a moment he mistakes her for Buffybot
and almost dismisses her. The look on his face, before he realizes
that she is the real deal, is one of disgust. Buffybot is a reminder
to Spike of his weak moments. She probably has been a walking
reminder for at least 100 some odd days. That's a tough thing
to face every day.
Spike's growth has not been thrown away, it has not been all for
naught. I've always placed my faith in Joss & ME and don't really
question what they are giving us because in the end everything
will become clear. Whether it's the ending I want or not, it always
works. You have to take the lumps of coal along with the sugar.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Arghhhhh!! I meant to say.... -- Deeva, 22:46:54 11/20/01
Tue
tha I will NOT go so far as to say that this is "true love".
Sigh.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- Aquitaine, 05:32:06 11/21/01 Wed
I agree that Smashed was disquieting but I don't agree that any
of Spike and Buffy's actions in previous episodes was nullified.
Remember, it's supposed to be a bit of a dance. Two steps forward,
one step back. I also have to disagree with your assessment that
the fighting and the sex were all about lust, power and control.
I suggest to you that they were about fears and disappointments.
I saw their... intercourse (as opposed to their fighting) as passionate
and fevered but not violent. The eye contact, particularly, was
very moving. I was also greatly relieved that they got to say
some bald truths to each other. Most important of all, this may
be the only way to snap Buffy out of 'going through the motions'
mode.
As a B/S shipper, I am very curious to see how this relationship
will develop. It is certainly bringing out the best and the worst
in each of them. I think they may both need some time to recover
from this but they will come out stronger.
JMO
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- SpikeIsIt, 08:45:50 11/21/01 Wed
It's simple, people lie. Don't admit to their true feelings. Fail
to recognize it. Buffy lies every time she pushes Spike away.
Remember his struggle when he first realized he loved her? Now
he's not afraid to say "love" even after being kicked
around by her. If she doesn't care about him, if it isn't love,
what is it? If she really despites him so much, why she gives
in every time he's around? He knows why, she doesn't yet. And
last thing - her conversation with Willow. What was that about?
Was it about choices we make not being always right? What's her
choice? Is it denial or submission?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The perspective of one Buffy/Spike shipper (Spoilers
seasons 5 & 6) -- isis_01, 09:34:58 11/21/01 Wed
With humblest apologies-could some one tell me what a Buffy/Spike
shipper is? Also, who is ME? I'm new to this...just discovered
this site about two weeks ago and am completely impressed. The
postings on this site are fabulous!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Welcome! I really like your screen name! -- RabidHarpy,
09:45:23 11/21/01 Wed
(I've always been a big Isis fan - do you remember the Marvel
cartoon way-back-when?)
I just found out what ME was last week - it stands for "Mutant
Enemy" - the name of Joss Whedon's Company?! Something like
that - they produce both "Buffy" and "Angel".
B/S "shippers" are people who are pro-Buffy & Spike's
relationship/romance.
Hope that helps, and we hope to see more posts from you! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Welcome! I really like your screen name!
-- isis_01, 10:56:04 11/21/01 Wed
Thanks for the welcome-and the explanation. I never was into comic
books-but I've heard great things about Marvel- I'm actually a
6th grade teacher-and ancient Egypt consumes us for a while each
year. Again thanks to all that have raised my consciousness of
Buffydom!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> stupid from the start -- isis_01, 11:21:27 11/21/01
Wed
yikes! sorry about the comic book comment-you said cartoon-not
comic- that's what i get for trying to work and post at the same
time! (and no,i never did see the cartoon either)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> We all make mistakes - no problem! :)
-- RabidHarpy, 11:31:05 11/21/01 Wed
There was also a television show/movie apparently - you can download
pictures, etc. at: http://shazam.imginc.com/othermedia/isistv/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reflections on Smashed (spoilers)
-- Solitude1056, 21:52:34 11/20/01 Tue
Several things - read through the other threads, and communication
was definitely a cornerstone of this episode, but I feel like
I'm missing something. I've been thinking about the titles that
Joss chooses, and "Smashed" has so many different meanings.
I, too, heard the rumor that Spike's chip would malfunction somehow,
and figured, ah, here's our moment of truth.
If I've got the chronology correct, Buffy had just rejected Spike
yet again when he smacked her & realized he wasn't feeling pain.
His immediate reaction was that he could finally get a snack...
but as soon as he had the girl cornered, I was surprised she didn't
roll her eyes at him. I mean, it reminded me of adolescent friends
trying to talk themselves up for losing their virginity. Okay,
here I am, I'm ready, any minute now, okay, I'm gonna do this,
here I go, see, watch me going, okay... You get the picture.
So I don't think "smashed" refers to the chip, obviously,
nor does it refer to Spike's state of grace - or destruction thereof
- post-chippiness. At that point, I began wondering if "smashed"
is supposed to be in the more colloquial sense, of being drunk
or high to a point where a person is out of control. Smashed,
schnockered, slammed. But while Willow and Amy were drinking,
neither displayed an excessive drunkenness. Perhaps a little out
of control with the magick, but not to the point where they themselves
were out of control of themselves... by that, I mean, they didn't
go to a point where they could not undo what they had done (since
we did see that they undid the whole shebang). And "smashed"
in that sense usually IME denotes a point-of-no-return.
So what got smashed, anyway?
For starters, Spike's insecurity.
Hunh, you say?
Buffy's spent the past few episodes continuing on her high horse,
same as season five. Spike's beneath her, a lesser being. And
she elaborated this time, calling him not a vampire, not a man,
accusing him of confusion about his identity. Unlike previous
episodes where she's sliced him, this time he wasn't perturbed
or swayed by his emotional reaction. The chip's malfunction smashed
his perception that Buffy=good, and Spike=not-good. Buffy's non-humanness
evens the playing field. She may not be human, but she's still
good; Spike may not be vampire or human, but he's not (necessarily)
evil. He doesn't need to tell her that he's the only one she can
talk to; he doesn't need to get down on his knees anymore. She's
in as much of a quandry about her very existence as he is, and
more to my point, this knowledge has not only smashed the existing
dynamics between them, it's also smashed Spike's illusion that
Buffy is untouchable (on several levels).
Meanwhile, I was surprised to see that Joss was considerably more
subtle in the Amy/Willow development than I'd been led to believe
based on the previews. It wasn't that Amy pushed Willow into abusing
magick, but that she unwittingly said and suggested the right
things to open the door for Willow. Amy, like Buffy, seems to
be operating in a state of "this isn't real," and thus
consequences may be less of an issue right now for her. How can
there be consequences when the primary action isn't real? So in
Willow's case, her 'level-headedness' and instinctive psychic-brakes
were not applied, as Amy helped her smash through the last of
any external rules about magick and its suitable uses. Until now,
Willow has offered to use magick, and used it without asking first,
inappropriately but not maliciously (decorations, cleaning, etc)
as well as selfishly but with extreme justification (post-Oz,
Lethe's bramble, resurrection, etc). But she's never used it without
having any cause except that of her own amusement. She has acted,
in almost all situations, out of a belief that her magick was
helping someone, as a way to 'fix' a situation or hurt. Tonight,
with Amy, she wasn't using magick to 'fix' anyone else's pain
or hurt - she didn't even verbally rationalize that her actions
with Amy were to make Amy feel better, a very Willow-like and
expected behavior. Instead, Willow smashed through her illusory
self-justification and is falling head-first into self-satisfaction.
If nothing else, at least it's more honest than her previous actions,
which gives me hope.
And perhaps, also, Buffy's illusions were smashed as well. No,
not about Spike, although thanks to him. The way I see it, she's
aware that there's lasting emotional damage from having been in
heaven, but that's emotional. As Spike reminded her in OMWF, the
only way to heal is by living. So, she slowly puts herself back
together, and starts healing. When that's done, she's back to
being Buffy. Now Spike's discovery has smashed all her hopes that
this would be true - she isn't entirely human, and she may in
fact harbor the very thing(s) inside her that it's her job to
kill. Her precious illusion that she could return in one piece
physically, and that the rest would slowly heal, is just that:
an illusion. And Joss smashed it for us, along with everyone else's
illusions.
Hm, so, think of anyone else with shattered illusions after this
episode?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- Traveler, 22:45:57
11/20/01 Tue
Very good points, Sol. You know, it just occured to me that maybe
Spike did smash some of Buffy's beliefs about him. Before he was
chipped, Spike was never a match for Buffy in fights. She cleaned
his clock more times than I can remember. After he fell in love
with her, he took her abuse without even fighting back. This was
the first episode ever that Spike stood toe to toe with her and
gave as good as he got, on every level. That's something that
niether Angel or Riley ever managed to do while they were dating
her. I wonder if Buffy respects Spike now because he was able
to stand up to her?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- mundusmundi, 05:01:10
11/21/01 Wed
Great post, and I concur. One thing about Spike: As usual, I think
he's partly right and partly wrong. He's right about Buffy being
different, about "coming back wrong." But he also appears
to believe (or hope) that she's 100% demon or something, that
she's just like him, more or less. But it seems unlikely that
Buffy is soulless. Perceptive as he is, I think even Spike's expectations
are going to be further smashed. (And, yes, I've got a theory...based
on something William P. Blatty wrote at the end of Legion, but
*heh* I'm still formulating.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- Aquitaine, 05:53:11
11/21/01 Wed
Great post.
I particularly like your commentary on Spike's fundamental insecurity,
which after all is/was his fatal flaw. His desire to be 'confident'
and 'accepted' is what got him vamped in the first place. I see
"Smashed" as an opportunity for him to grow out of that
old pattern and focus on his true strengths.
Like you, I took his little psych-myself-up speech before trying
to bite the woman as a good sign.
The playing field (and the house of cards) has been leveled. As
Spike said in 'The Gift': "Presto. No barriers". The
walls literally came crashing down. Now all we have are the foundations.
Buffy and Spike can start communicating and interacting in ways
even 'shippers never expected. I think there is much more than
sex, romance, violence, and lust going on here.
Isn't it most coincidental (not!) that all this mayhem is happening
on the heels of Giles' departure. Mwahahaha. This show is evil.
Everything either falls into place (or falls apart) perfectly.
The funny part at this moment is that I am now counting on Anya
(Anya!) to be the voice of reason.
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- DEN, 06:35:22
11/21/01 Wed
Terrific post, Sol. As for Buffy, we really have so little data
that it's ALL speculation. But your take on Spike is great! And
as a careful (obsessed?)follower of the Willow thread--as most
of my postings show--you're spot-on about her use of magic(k)to
change reality substantially for her casual amusement. You're
right too about Amy's role as (dare I say it) facilitator: "let's
go out and have some fun)." BTW, Willow's taste in drinks
has changed as well as her taste in clothes. The martini was a
FAR cry from her usual coffee concoctions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- Caligo, 07:55:30
11/21/01 Wed
"Smashed" could also refer to that poor house that Buffy
and Spike got physical in. I mean that was seriously smashed to
bits...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- Malandanza, 10:08:57
11/21/01 Wed
"Hm, so, think of anyone else with shattered illusions after
this episode?"
I'd say a great many B/S fans had their romantic illusions Smashed
:)
Buffy and Spike are not a couple. Buffy isn't going to be dropping
by to watch Passions with Spike, they will not be drinking hot
cocoa together after a hard night of slaying, they will not be
moving in together with Spike as the doting, but stern, stepfather
for Dawn. Spike will not be redeemed -- he will never be a "real
boy" -- he is not on the path of redemption, nor has he ever
been. His past good works were for one thing -- to get Buffy.
Now he had her, and everything's changed. I doubt we'll be seeing
sensitive Spike any longer than we saw sensitive Parker.
(of course the B/S 'shippers will say "what about when Buffy
was dead? He still helped out" -- but that's because he's
warped. He liked dead Buffy better than living Buffy -- she was
an ideal he could worship and fantasize about without Buffy's
real hatred intruding to ruin his happy delusions).
In spite of the disturbing sex scene (which resembled Noir-Angel/Darla's
disturbing sex scene), this was a great episode for me -- finally
and end to the threatening romance between Spike and Buffy :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- mm, 11:36:26
11/21/01 Wed
In spite of the disturbing sex scene (which resembled Noir-Angel/Darla's
disturbing sex scene), this was a great episode for me -- finally
and end to the threatening romance between Spike and Buffy
Yikes! Let's hope little Spike Jr. doesn't come along.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Reflections on Smashed (spoilers) -- cat,
11:56:25 11/21/01 Wed
Yikes! Let's hope little Spike Jr. doesn't come along.
Ok, I DON'T think this will EVER happen, but had to share the
thought of a friend: "Hmmm, more unprotected sex? Maybe Buffy
will have a girl, who will grow up, hook up with Angel's son,
and the child THEY have will be the messiah."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> She IS the Quisach Haderach? ;) -- vandalia,
12:59:07 11/21/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who are the "evil"
nerdy trio? ((spoiler for smashed, season 6 BtVS, season 3 AtS))
-- JBone, 21:58:45 11/20/01 Tue
At first I thought the freakishly bad guy trio were the writer's
instrument of having a little fun at the expense of a part of
their audience. But now, I'm starting to wonder. These threee
losers are a lot like Xander and Willow in their high school years.
The whole sci-fi thing with Xander knowing a lot about Star Wars,
comic books (Spiderman and Superman), Star Trek, Babylon 5, and
so on, and so on. Xander has haphazardly moved forward with life,
while these geeks are still stuck in the basement. In high school,
Willow was Miss Science Club and novice witch. For some reason
we don't see the science side of Willow anymore, and her wiccan
powers have grown tremendously.
I'm sure I'm only seeing a portion of this, but I believe ME is
showing us how much the scooby gang has evolved by showing us
what they, in a way, use to be.
On totally different topic, first the guy who played Cain in BtVS
"Phases" shows up on AtS as Sahjhan. Now, according
to the "next week on Buffy", they guy who played Zachary
Kralik in BtVS "Helpless" is coming back to Buffy. I
also remember the guy who played Ken in BtVS "Anne"
showing up on AtS "The Bachelor Party" playing Richard
Straley. Is this like Star Trek where they keep on recasting actors
into other parts?
All said, the only way these two series could get better would
be if they poured chili on it. And maybe some cheddar and onions.
Anyone else hungry?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Come to think of it, I am kinda hungry now...........Spoilers
-- Rufus, 22:09:28 11/20/01 Tue
Jeff Kober was in China Beach and Kindred the Embraced playing
a vampire from the clan Nosferatu.......can't wait to see him
next week playing what looks like Willow's Svengali of the Dark
Side. Willow was arrogant to think that her power was the only
power.....Giles did warn her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Who are the "evil" nerdy trio? ((spoiler for
smashed, season 6 BtVS, season 3 AtS)) -- Neaux, 04:31:13 11/21/01
Wed
also of Note was that Xander was reading a D & D manual without
even realizing it...
His nerdiness is disappearing!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Any show that lasts will recycle its better guest actors
-- CW, 06:02:21 11/21/01 Wed
Especially if they keep playing characters that get killed off!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Trio(Spoilers to 'Smashed' and AtS' 'Lullaby' --
Age, 07:33:19 11/21/01 Wed
In their number I think that they represent the three characters,
Buffy, Willow and Xander, being transitional figures(the plan
they mentioned) as the three begin their journey from the parents'
basement of life, adolescence,(and in Buffy's case, the ultimate
parental figure's basement of death, heaven) to adulthood. The
first part of their plan, getting the diamond, this cold, perfect,
hard dead thing sitting in a museum(heaven) may be symbolically
a re-enactment of Willow's resurrection spell as the flame of
the blow torch and the circle it makes imply. Having gotten the
diamond, the trio then use a freeze ray which symbolically describes
Buffy this season. The scene also contains the idea of blowing
hot and cold, of going to extremes, like heaven and hell. Buffy
seems to be in this same phase of her life. The scene could equally
describe Spike's attempt to penetrate Buffy's defences, but being
left out in the cold, so to speak.(Incidentally, the aerial descent
of one of the trio in the museum scene may harken back to Buffy's
descent from heaven, with the other two of the trio representing
the Scoobies with feet on ground.)
Also, the trio's plan to take over Sunnydale has a metaphorical
component: their success would be Buffy's failure; it would imply
that the pull of remaining adolescent had won. Perhaps we will
see Xander, Willow and Buffy pulling together to fight the trio
as a symbolic representation of their movement towards adulthood?
That is speculation, not spoiler.
Holtz on AtS may be playing a similar transitional figure to Angel,
but not as the pull of adolescent life out of control, but the
consequences of adolescent life out of control, as vampires represent;
in the trio's plan and in Holtz's revenge we will see a rite of
passage, a test of these characters as they move towards adulthood.
Age.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Wow. Back to the Food Subject (Food for Thought) --
Kimberly, 08:28:21 11/21/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Very convincing indeed...... -- Rahael, 12:09:35 11/21/01
Wed
Along with your other post about Angel and Buffy's thematic connections.
I'm going to have to watch AtS 1&2 side by side with Buffy now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spike's chip (spoilers for Smashed)
-- bugman, 22:21:18 11/20/01 Tue
Anyone "got a theory" how Spike's chip actually works.
Spike's ability to attack Buffy in Smashed raises some questions
about the chip.
Spike was able to hit Buffy without the chips usual infliction
of blinding pain. Let's assume that Buffy is indeed (as Spike
asserts) not 100% human since she was brought back to like. How
did the chip know this, and allow Spike to act on his desires.
Initially, it appeared that the chip might have functioned by
reacting to Spike's conscious mind. In The Initiative, he was
unable to feed off of Willow, possibly since he was aware she
was human. Spike was also able to attack vamps/demons since he
knew they were not human.
In Smashed, he was able to fight with Buffy. This ability suggests
the chip has some type of power to discern the essence of external
individuals. Did the Initiative really have the ability to design
such a chip? It seems unlikely since they relied on technological
means. A chip to evaluate the essence of others, suggests a mystical
power. Given the Initiatives operations, the manufacturing of
a magical chip seems unlikely.
Let's say that the chip does really react to Spike's desires.
Perhaps Spike suspected that Buffy wasn't quite right after she
came back to life. In this case, the chip did not prevent or punish
him from hitting Buffy since he believes she is not completely
human. I think this is more plausible than a magic Initiative
chip.
Another interesting point is what if Spike is wrong? Perhaps there
is nothing wrong with Buffy. Was Spike able to convince himself,
and therefore the chip, into believing Buffy was different? If
this is true, then can Spike condition the very chip that was
meant to condition him?
Anyone have any ideas. I think these questions have some interesting
implications for Buffy and the true character of Spike.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> One problem (spoilers for Smashed) -- Slayrunt, 22:34:06
11/20/01 Tue
Spike attacked the human mugger, saying he thought the mugger
was a demon and the chip went off.
I like your theory though. I agree about the Initiative and the
magic part, so I'm stumped on how the chip works.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: One problem (spoilers for Smashed) -- Simon Agenbroad,
16:21:14 11/21/01 Wed
The chip detects SOMETHING. It is true that a "soul detector"
(actually, hasn't spike hit Angel without a migrane?) doesn't
sound like Initiative technology. However, if the Initiative discovered
some sort of detectable difference between humans and demons,
they just wouldn't CALL it that, they would have some suitable,
scientific sounding name for it. It is important to remember that
we only have the word of some Initiative technology that buffy
"hasn't come back right." This give the writers PLENTY
of wriggle room. I am curious to see how they work this out. I
was actually glad to see this development, because I am of the
opinion that if you don't make successfully raising Buffy from
the dead take more than a couple of episodes, than you radicly
devalue death as a plot device, something alluded to in "once
more with feeling" (Hey I've died twice)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Spike's chip (spoilers for Smashed) -- Calluna, 22:35:42
11/20/01 Tue
Does anyone actually remember Spike trying to hit Buffy after
the chip was put in? I mean, all the way back to Season 4. He's
tried to injure Willow and Xander, but i don't remember him trying
to injure Buffy. Maybe he's just assumed all this time that he'd
get a migraine if he harmed Buffy. And if you follow through with
all the "Slayers aren't quite human" theories, maybe
the chip would never have worked on Buffy anyway.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Spike's chip (spoilers for Smashed) -- Tellab,
23:13:48 11/20/01 Tue
Perhaps I don't remember it correctly, but when Spike assumed
the chip was out in OoMM, didn't he attempt to attack her then
it went off? And wasn't the resurrection ritual interrupted? It
was not completed, even Willow said so. I'm kinda leaning on Spike's
theory, that Buffy came back wrong.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Spike's chip (spoilers for Smashed) -- Leaf, 02:37:53
11/21/01 Wed
I can think of at least one time he hit Buffy and the Chip went
off when he tried to bring her out of the coma she was in.
I am thinking she is more likly to be maybe not entirely human
but not demon the anti-demon??. With the angel symbolism at the
beginning of the season (now bear in mind I havn't seen any of
season six so i'm just going on what i've picked up from this
board and reading the transcripts and wildfeeds)and the fact that
the resurection spell was interupted and from what I can tell
wasn't finished properly that maybe TPTB bought her back for a
reason as a force of good / angel. Or something this could be
the revelation that gives her 'the fire back',
Ok I'm just babbling now I think there was some sort of coherent
thought in there.
Leaf So how was that for my longest post on this board yet? Oh
and please forgive my poor spelling and grammer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Spike's chip (spoilers for Smashed) -- racoon
[long-time lurker, first-time poster], 03:11:37 11/21/01 Wed
This is my first post here but instead of the lucid and brilliant
treatise I always had in mind, it will be vague and potentially
wrong *g*. Didn't Spike slap Buffy in TWOTW? It's been a while
since I saw it, so feel free to correct me.
The chip has been an iffy plot device all along. Are there different
degrees of pain inflicted on Spike when he resorts to violence?
Is the impact from, say, hitting someone less than if he attacks
with the intent to kill? I'm also a bit confused as to the purpose
of the chip. I distinctly remember (Riley?) saying something to
the effect of "Hostile 17 can't harm any living creature".
Vampires are certainly undead, inhabiting as they do a human body
- but what about demons? They're born (or is that hatched), they
eat, they have hearts, albeit in unusual places... What would
happen if Spike tried to hurt a good demon, such as Lorne?
Ah, I like the way the Buffyverse is going grey on us - so much
to speculate upon, so little time due to atrocious pile of paperwork
on desk...
BTW this is a *wonderful* board. You should all be proud:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Spike's chip (spoilers for Smashed) -- Aquitaine,
06:10:35 11/21/01 Wed
Welcome to the board, racoon. Hope you post again soon.
I just want to add here that Spike doesn't say anything about
her being a demon. He says: "You came back wrong". Remember
how, in Afterlife, he slammed Xander into a tree and told him
Willow had kept the resurrection a secret from him because she
didn't think he (Spike) could get rid of her is she came back
wrong? Kinda makes you wonder what Willow will try to do if and
when she finds out Buffy came back 'wrong'.
Spike hit Buffy in OomM and FFL. Each time, he got zapped. He
wanted to slap her in WotW but I think the SG stopped him. Anyone
else wondering if this has anything to do with Dawn's zombie spell?
I remember Doc saying something about her mother (Buffy) having
strong DNA.
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Willow & Buffy -- Malandanza, 09:27:04
11/21/01 Wed
"Kinda makes you wonder what Willow will try to do if and
when she finds out Buffy came back 'wrong'."
In Afterlife, Willow says that one way to get rid of the demon
would be to undo the spell that brought Buffy back. The suggestion
was that it is in her power to reverse the spell and send Buffy
back to the grave (and her soul back to heaven? if it hasn't been
corrupted since her rebirth...)
Perhaps Willow was speculating -- that reversing the spell was
a possibility that she might research. And perhaps there was a
time frame she had to work within (so the statute of limitations
has expired) -- but if not, Willow has the power of life and death
over Buffy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Willow & Buffy -- Aquitaine,
10:53:29 11/21/01 Wed
Oh, Malandanza. You've spoken out loud what I didn't want to say.
What a truly horrifying scenario.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Thanks to all...I honestly couldn't remember
:) -- Calluna, 13:23:50 11/21/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> In Fool for Love, last season -- CW, 06:12:57 11/21/01
Wed
He demonstrates for Buffy, that if he's not trying to hurt her
the chip doesn't go off. Then to demonstrate again, he get's vampy
and snarly. Before he can even touch her the chip goes off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Spike's chip (spoilers for Smashed) -- SKPE, 06:12:58
11/21/01 Wed
I had a couple of thoughts 1.a few years back a Dr. kerillen(sp?)
clamed to have developed a way to detect areas using photography.
Spikes 'chip' could be an outgrowth of that, wired between the
decision centers in the forebrain and the pain centers. 2.The
'Chip" would only activate when attacking someone with a
soul. Could This mean that Buffy was returned but not her soul?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The chip is magic... just go with it (spoilers for smashed)
-- Traveler, 22:54:58 11/20/01 Tue
It has been shown several times (including smashed) that what
Spike thinks is absolutely unimportant. The chip punishes him
whether he knows beforehand that a creature is human or not. How
it knows that something is human is ultimately unimportant. After
all, you didn't ask how the freeze ray or the time distortion
device worked...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The chip is magic... just go with it (spoilers
for smashed) -- bugman, 23:08:59 11/20/01 Tue
That's because I already know how the freeze gun and the magic
lint works! I get your point, but you'll never stop us nitpickers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The chip is the one Buffyverse thing that's NOT magic
-- Masq, 09:02:46 11/21/01 Wed
It is Initiative technology. One thing we know about the Initiative,
in fact, the whole point of Season 4, was that the Initiative
didn't believe in magic, and didn't use it.
It may be science-fiction technology, but it is technology pure
and simple.
Adam, the ultimate product of the Initiative, could be defeated
by magic because he was constructed and instructed by magic-free
humans.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The chip is the one Buffyverse thing that's
NOT magic -- JLP, 09:57:38 11/21/01 Wed
If we need a sci-fi explanation, don't remember that the Initiative
tracked demons using "pheromone signatures" or something
like that. What they seemed to have worked out was that even magical
beings had various physical/biological characteristics that could
be detected and manipulated by technological means. There are
also plenty of pseudo-scientific theories in our world about auras
and electrical patterns thrown off by human bodies. The "Buffy"
writers are running with this notion of an overlap between the
mystical and the physical, which makes perfect sense to me. Mystical
energy is still energy and could still be measured by scientific
instruments, if not really understood.
At any rate, the chip is set to detect a human biopattern of some
kind, and so does not depend on Spike's intentions. It seems to
me that Spike could be totally wrong about Buffy -- she's never
been the same as other humans, has she? So whatever pattern the
chip detects would probably not be the same in her. Has he ever
tried to hit her since he was chipped?
Last thought: Actually since Spike's chip only reacts to normal
humans it requires no magical know-how at all. They just noticed
that vampires had the same nervous system as humans and went with
it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The chip is the one Buffyverse thing that's
NOT magic -- Cleanthes, 14:22:17 11/21/01 Wed
I agree, and maybe that's what the chip detects - sticking to
the scientific rules. Humans, and human "smell" can
be measured (like the new iris scans that we'll prolly see in
all the airports withing five years). That's what the chip works
on.
All demons, demiurges, Slayers, slayer-returned-from-the-undiscovered-country,
etc. don't set off the chip, not because they aren't sentient,
nor because the chip is intended to just protect humans, but because
the chip was constructed by folks who refused to consider anything
that might not abide by the scientific rules or lay beyond that
paradigm.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> The chip . . . -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym,
11:54:26 11/22/01 Thu
Remember the Heinlein theorem (or was it Asimov? Clarke?)
"Any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable
from magic."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Maybe it's not magic -- FelipeRijo, 11:41:46 11/21/01 Wed
If the chip acts based upon Spike's intentions (i.e. going off
if he plans to hurt someone), it means that if he doesn't MEAN
to hurt someone the chip won't go off. I think the chip won't
go off if Spike pretends to hit someone. My point is, he has such
strong feelings for Buffy, that in his mind, hitting her is an
act of love, not of inflicting physical pain. So, it disables
the chip functioning.
What you guys think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Maybe it's not magic -- Aquitaine, 12:23:32 11/21/01
Wed
I agree with your logic, FelipeRijo. I always come back to Spike's
words in FFL. "Works on intent". We saw in TR that memory-wiped
Randy/Spike doesn't have the wish to kill Buffy. I take this to
mean that Spike's subconsciously doesn't want to kill her. It's
only the conscious, vulnerable, insecure persona who feels the
nostalgia for biting, the bloodlust etc.
Of course, there is the wee problem of explaining the pain he
feels when he fits a target he doesn't know is human. Hehehe.
Small loophole.
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffy's nature (Smashed spoilage)
-- Doug A Scott, 23:24:49 11/20/01 Tue
Okay, crazy idea here.
Buffy came back "different", so we all immediately think,
"Uh-oh, part demon."
But she came back from Heaven. What if she's pulled a Supergirl[1]
on us here? What if Buffy's... an angel?
Well, maybe not a real-life full-fledged Roma Downy celestial
cream-cheese eating angel, but whatever the opposite of a "demon"
is?
Just a thought.
[1]The Supergirl comic's been weird the last few years. But good.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Ooooh! -- WillowFan, 02:06:43 11/21/01 Wed
Interesting thought, but would an angel really do the nasty with
Spike?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Ooooh! -- Millan, 05:18:42 11/21/01 Wed
...would an angel really do the nasty with Spike?
Well, yes. You'd have to be a saint not to... :P
(I haven't seen it yet, but am spoiled. Will hopefully catch it
before the week-end.)
/Millan
"I must be a noble vampire. A good guy. On a mission of redemption."
- Randy, Tabula Rasa
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Buffy's true nature. . .Ah hah! Spoilers through
"Smashed" -- Simplicity, 05:42:57 11/21/01 Wed
I like this theory. It's much better than Buffy is a demon story
line. I don't buy that, she's too good.
Anyone else remember the episode(After Life?) where Buffy's walking
through the graveyard and stands directly in front of a statue
-- giving her the appearance of having angel's wings?
Also...the name she chose was "Joan" in Tabula Rosa.
Like Joan of Arc?
If I weren't such a nice girl I could use a four letter term for
what she and Spike did. That was lust pure and simple. I didn't
see any evidence of love on either side. Actually, it was kind
of sick and twisted. But...I don't think even an angel could say
no to Spike.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's true nature. . .Ah hah! Spoilers
through "Smashed" -- Aquitaine, 06:00:42 11/21/01 Wed
OK. This is totally tongue-in-cheek:
Dru 'was the face of his salvation and saved him from mediocrity'.
Maybe Buffy the angel was sent back to save Spike in a different
way.
Seriously, I hope that Buffy isn't a demon. But I also hope she
isn't an angel. I hope she's something else altogether. The question
is: Why would a 'something else' feel more comfortable with a
vampire than with humans. Why is she attracted to death and seek
it out to make her 'feel'?
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's true nature. . .Ah hah!
Spoilers through "Smashed" -- cat, 06:21:04 11/21/01
Wed
>>Why is she attracted to death and seek it out to make
her 'feel'?
Maybe because Willow petitioned Osiris - a god of death & rebirth
- in her resurrection? Not to mention, the words of the first
slayer "Death is your gift" maybe Buffy has seen abd
dealt out so much death, that it is the only thing which seems
familiar to her now, and she is now seeking comfort in the familiar.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Choice of company (ramble) -- Millan,
07:44:27 11/21/01 Wed
Why would a 'something else' feel more comfortable with a vampire
than with humans. Why is she attracted to death and seek it out
to make her 'feel'?
The simple answer could be that she is comfortable with death
since she's been there (a lot). :)
But is that really the question?
Is she comfortable with Spike because he is a vampire, even though
he is a vampire or partly because he is a vampire?
As I said, I haven't seen 'Smashed' but from the other episodes
this season I think Spike is the only one that seems to really
listen to her. The one that she knows she can count on being there
and the one that lets her take it slow. The others are so busy
being happy she's back and wanting to make everything ok that
they seem to expect her to go back to the path exactly where she
left off. Once the whole 'being dead experience' is 'gotten over
with' she should start to slay and be happy.
The only other person that she could have leaned on is Giles,
and he made that impossible when he didn't take a stand against
her. She substituted her lost mother for a father-figure and dumped
every 'real-life problems' on him, and he never drew any lines.
So he did the next best thing - he left. Now she's unheard by
the friends that are present and abandoned by the last rock she
could lean on. What's left?
I think Spike is the only one that she is comfortable with because
he lets her be herself. He is there if she needs support, be it
mental or physical (and no, I'm not hinting at "that"
right now, gutter-minds), and wants her to tell him how she is
but isn't in her face asking "Are you ok?" all the time.
She can move at her own pace with him. No sugered lies or half-truths
is needed, raw, ugly truth is ok - if it is the truth. [Life isn't
bliss - it's this - it's living.]
It doesn't complicate things that he's a vampire because his world
is the dark world. She needs to know that world partly because
of what she's been through (death), partly because of what she
is (the slayer).
It does complicate things that Spike's in love with her, but more
because Buffy's experiences with love has been bad than because
he's a vampire. Spike is: Evil, yeah, right... ;P Soulless, sure,
but undeniably capable of love. Truthful and reliable? Half a
year helping the good guys, protecting Dawn without any expectations
for a crumb as a reward should say something about his motives...
I think that most of Buffy's bitching with him is more blind defence
than thought-out reasons. When she reaches out to him now, she
uses his feelings and tries to substitute comfort with need/lust
for the person that she knows is dependent on her. Cruel, but
understandable. Could she but take a step back and be objective,
I'm sure some stronger feelings are there, half-formed, repressed,
but there.
Oh, look, my first ramble here. Tear it apart if you don't like
it. I'm heading off for an evening of role-playing games. :)
/Millan
"So much easier to talk to when he wanted to kill me."
- Buffy, All The Way
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Choice of company (ramble)
-- Kimberly, 08:13:05 11/21/01 Wed
Good post; not a ramble (or a ramble in a good way)
My impression all along is that Buffy is comfortable with Spike
even though he is a vampire. If you have noticed, it is only with
Spike that Buffy has been able to sit without talking. He isn't
requiring anything of her, or wasn't until OMWF in which all of
his pent-up feelings came out.
As to what Buffy is now, I doubt we're talking either demon or
angel; they've been moving farther and farther from black and
white this season. I also don't really think that there is something
missing so much as something else. Buffy may have been perceiving
it as a loss because she is different, but it is my guess that
we will see her become more and more the True Slayer. If she is
filled with Love, and if the Vampire Messiah thinking holds true
(a theory I've dearly loved since it was first proposed), she
may be fulfilling the ultimate destiny of ALL the Slayers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Choice of company
(ramble) -- Wynn, 11:02:39 11/21/01 Wed
I'm still trying to process everything that happened in Smashed,
especially the last 10 minutes. I agree with your post (she is
comfortable with him even though he is a vampire), but I haven't
heard about the Vampire Messiah thinking/theory. What is it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Choice of company
(ramble)*Fray spoilers!* -- Lunarchickk, 19:28:13 11/21/01 Wed
Hey, I don't know if anybody doesn't want to be spoiled for Fray
(I think it's the 3rd or 4th issue that I'm referring to) but
I thought I'd be careful just in case... (I just read issues 1-4
and was very impressed! Go Joss!) Anyway, back to my original
point...
"...she may be fulfilling the ultimate destiny of ALL the
Slayers."
Interesting, especially considering the tale of the last Slayer
told in Fray... in the 21st century, the last Slayer for something
like 200 years defeats *everything*. All the demons, all the vampires,
all the magicks. Now, the story's being told by a being from another
dimension who doesn't have all the details (like who survived
the final battle), so maybe it's slightly misleading on purpose;
*and* there's nothing to indicate that it was definitely Buffy.
(After all, the 21st century has only just begun.) But it hints
that Buffy *may* be the Slayer who rids the world of demons. Maybe
it's just not through fighting, but through redemption (per the
Vampire Messiah theory)...
(Just thought I'd throw that in for discussion.) :) Lunar
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy's nature - alternate wild idea (Smashed spoilage)
-- T-rex, 06:39:27 11/21/01 Wed
Or, what if Buffy came back without her soul (whatever that really
is). He soul could still be in heaven, while her conscious self
sleepwalks through life without it. Missing something, but not
sure what.
If Spike's chip works by detecting the presence of a soul, it
would explain why the chip doesn't work on Buffy now.
AND, if you (like me) like the idea of Buffy coming back as some
kind of Vampire messiah (forget which posters first fleshed that
theory out) then it would make sense that the savior should have
a similar metaphysical makeup as the beings she is meant to help
redeem.
What do you guys think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy's nature (Smashed spoilage) -- grendelagain, 08:16:11
11/21/01 Wed
I like that idea. But taking it even farther-- perhaps she's becoming,
for a little while, a "fallen" angel? Up to last night,
Spike was beneath her in a certain way and last night- quite a
different way! But seriously, Spike, Faith, even Buffy in the
past have suggested a darker desire, way of being lurking inside
her.
I can think of one other fallen angel who has "walked to
the fire" himself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Missing Scene? If so, what does
this mean? -- Anthora, 23:28:38 11/21/01 Wed
Ok, posted this hours ago and never saw it. Maybe its just me
-- if, so , many apologies.
-----------------
This is part of the Smashed summary on the buffy.com site, which
seems to imply it was trimmed out but originally written or even
filmed. It really worries me about how Joss sees Spike's current
attitudes -- its Crush redux!
"Down in Spike's crypt, the bleached bloodsucker prepares
to stick it to the Slayer by pulling out several goodies, including
a stun gun, a rope, chains, padlocks and handcuffs. Then, he puts
on a Roxy Music record, lights some candles, sets up flowers and
then puts rose petals on the bed. When he is content with his
preparation, he bolts from the crypt in search of Buffy."
Someone talk this poor redemptionist shipper off the tower...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Just in case: Above is Possible Spoiler for SMASHED (though
if its missing, is it really?) -- Anthora, 00:15:31 11/22/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Roxy Music? -- d'Herblay, 00:16:21 11/22/01 Thu
Would that record have been "Love is the Drug"? If so,
the redemptionistas might not have liked it, but the growing group
of addictionistas would have loved that scene.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Roxy Music? -- Anthora, 00:27:30 11/22/01 Thu
I'm a bit more disturbed by the 'toys' he would be pulling out.
That kind of puts a kink in the redemption road, doesn't it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Roxy Music? -- Rufus, 00:41:39 11/22/01
Thu
I thought that was rather a conservative collection myself......with
conflicting emotions. He obviously thinks that this is normal
and he did have the sweet touch of rose petals......if it were
anyone but a slayer I'd worry about the stun gun......:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Roxy Music? -- Cynthia, 05:28:24 11/22/01
Thu
Well, maybe he thought he could make the demon come out of Buffy
the way that he goes into vamp mode. After all, he doesn't know
what kind of demon it could be.
Maybe, he decided to have an asortment of goodies not knowing
exactly what Buffy would "enjoy".
Having read several posts regarding this, I'm not sure if this
is a joke that someone wrote into a review or summary or not.
Perhaps he was thinking that since he didn't seem to be making
any sort of headway just talking to her that he would take that
he wanted. Well the physical part of it anyway, and just settle
for that.
Or perhaps, he thought he would physically hold her. abet unwillingly,
until he verbally got though to her and which, in his mind would
lead to seduction.
But, in the end, he got something he never expected. A gift (and
I know that some folks will disagree) from Buffy -- her complete
and totally consent. I'm not talking about what caused it and
whether she will regret it but the fact that, at that moment,
it was given -- willingly.
The look on Spike's face just before they lost themselves in the
sensations. The surprise and joy at Buffy truly desired him was
priceless. And something, I think that will effect him much more
than any forced secduction could.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Roxy Music? -- LoriAnn, 06:53:16
11/22/01 Thu
Spike goes from being loving to being verbally abusive to being
loving to being physically abusive to being verbally abusive to
being tender to being understanding to being . . .. Sounds like
he's in love to me. However, he has problems: 1) his self-confidence
is at a low ebb, 2) he is a vampire, 3) he is in love, 4) the
object of his love gives him wildly erratic messages. He's frantic
and doesn't know what to do. At times he can be loving and understanding;
at others he can be highly aggressive. The poor boy is confused
in several different ways. Buffy, not to mention everyone else,
has treated Spike very shabbily, at best, for a long time. Of
course, chip or no chip, he's evil--and apparently a low life
too boot, kitten poker--but he's posed no threat to anyone, generally,
and has still been treated very badly, even before his menage
a trois with Buffy and Dru. Buffy in particular has been very
abusive, physically and verbally. On the other hand, when it suits
her purposes she runs to him for help. When she doesn't need his
help, she generally treats him as scum. Spike's reactions to Buffy's
actions have generally been to respond as he thought he should.
If she told him he'd do anything for money, he'd take the money
and do the dirty job; he'd do it and act like the money was all
that mattered. If she treated him like, in his words, a man, he
tried to act both human and manly. If she trusted him, he tried
to deserve her trust. Buffy on the other hand never treats Spike
consistently for very long. He's a vicious ememy, then he's the
scum of the earth, then he's a trusted ally, then he's beneath
her, then he's a confidant, then he's scum again. If Spike were
ever treated consistently one way or another, he would probably
be acting more consistently. He's clearly, as has been often pointed
out, desirous of meeting the expectations of the group he is around.
Mix that with his more general insecurity and clear difference--he's
a vamp--and the he becomes wildly unpredictable, with swings from
tender and loving to highly abusive and potentially dangerous.
Sounds like Spike doesn't it.
Another thing, Spike's attempt to bite the girl when he thought
his chip was inactive is interesting and open to interpretation.
What actually happened and what would have happened had Spike
been able to complete the action? What were his motivations? He
wasn't just hungry. That didn't seem to enter into the equation.
Was he being a vampire, evil? Was he testing the chip? Was he
striking out after being hurt by Buffy? Was he trying to reinforce
his ego after having had it almost destroyed by the person he
loves and respects more than any other? Was he being self-destructive?
Although I expect ME could find a way to really rehabilitate Spike,
he does seem like a bad match for Buffy. He's the wrong guy at
the right time. On the other hand, Buffy seems like a poor match
for someone with Spike's problems and potential. On more thing,
as I posted before, the PTB owe Spike a real shot at redemption
for the way he was selflessly willing to give his unlife to protect
Dawn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Roxy Music? -- rowan, 20:37:08 11/23/01
Fri
Not if it was a deliberate attempt on the part of the writer to
consciously echo prior *bad* points of the B/S relationship prior
to *smashing* them in the fight/lovemaking scene.
There are too many scenes in this that are replays of prior B/S
moments to be anything but intentional:
1. Spike telling Buffy in the teaser that he's the only one she's
got echoes Becoming 2.
2. Spike on his knees after Buffy hits him echoes the FFL alley
scene where she throws the money on him, he cries, then decides
to go get the shotgun to kill her.
3. Spike telling Buffy in the fight at the house that he is only
going to hurt her a little echoes the School Hard fight.
4. Buffy calling Spike an evil disgusting thing echoes Crush.
5. The start of the B/S sex scene echoes S/D in FFL during China
Boxer Rebellion.
6. The poor little lost girl with no one to love comment echoes
the fight in HLOD.
These are only the obvious ones that have occurred to me. Frankly,
the whole script seems riddled with them. DG refered to the fact
in interviews in the summer that he's rather a Buffy historian.
Since it was removed, I can only speculate they realized that
having Spike prepare for sex made no sense since he was obviously
extremely startled when Buffy initiated it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Smells like a plant to me... -- vandalia, 23:56:28 11/22/01
Thu
Wouldn't be the first time the writers had planted false spoilers.
However, given the nature of the scene it could also be UPN balked
at showing it (a bit too suggestive even for them). But my gut
feeling remains with 'red herring.' I'd like a link to this review,
to see if it was indeed 'official' or just something someone posted
on the buffy.com site (which doesn't make it offical).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Official site... -- Lunarchickk, 17:05:09 11/25/01
Sun
Here's the link to the exact page on buffy.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I the only one who doesn't
want to see Buffy and Spike together? ("Smashed" SPOILERS)
-- WillowFan, 01:48:57 11/22/01 Thu
Ugh. Buffy so deserves better than Bad-Boy-but-Pity-Me guy. If
Spike really loved Buffy, and wanted to change for her sake, he'd
ask Willow to conjure up a soul for him in order to prove his
devotion. But, no! As soon as he thinks the chip doesn't work
anymore, he goes right back to being evil, ready to kill someone
immediately. What a jerk.
F*cking him isn't "hot" or "sexy" or whatever.
It's sad and disturbed and unhealthy. It's a big, fat mistake,
and Buffy will surely regret it.
William was one thing, but Spike is quite another. William would
have made a good boyfriend. Spike isn't capable of it.
(I can't wait to see the responses to this one.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Am I the only one who doesn't want to see Buffy and
Spike together? ("Smashed" SPOILERS) -- RH, 05:58:59
11/22/01 Thu
"William would have made a good boyfriend."
Yikes! Are you SURE about that?!?
I guess it would depend on what you're looking for in a partner,
but William's "foppishness" certainly wouldn't go over
well with the women of today - they'd think he was far too effeminate,
(no offence to him - actually, some women might like that!) In
his own time, and with the proper feminine adoration, he mightn't
have turned out too badly... I guess we'll never know... unless
Joss gives us some sort of glimpse into an alternate dimension
where William hasn't been vamped... that would be neat!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Am I the only one who doesn't want to see Buffy and
Spike together? ("Smashed" SPOILERS) -- phoenix, 07:01:37
11/22/01 Thu
I agree i dont think Spike is worthy of Buffy and their relationship
is likely to come crashing down like the building they consummated
their relationship in. I am and always will be a B/A shipper.
But i must say that their being together is a great story line
and Smashed was great.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Am I the only one who doesn't want to see Buffy and
Spike together? ('Smashed' SPOILERS) -- John Burwood, 10:00:19
11/22/01 Thu
Agree with you one hundred per cent, Willowfan. Anyone who imagines
such a relationship could make Buffy happy or reform Spike is
quite literally living in fairy-tale country. Only in fairy tales
can Beauty's love turn the Beast into a handsome prince. In real
life the beast would drag Beauty down to his level. But, of course,
BTVS is a fantasy, so maybe my premise is wrong and the impossible
can happen. But BTVS has always made a point of its metaphorical
reality - & in any realverse situation any girl heading into a
relationship with a creep like Spike is taking the path of misery
and degradation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> hmmm -- Jen C., 23:14:29 11/23/01 Fri
**Anyone who imagines such a relationship could make Buffy happy
or reform Spike is quite literally living in fairy-tale country**
It's been stated that the theme for this season's Buffy is "grow
up" and one of the most important things that one learns
as they grow up is that nothing *makes* you happy - you make you
happy. If Buffy is conflicted about her life, if she can't reconcile
her reality with her expectations, then there is no way that she
can be happy - relationship or no. And as for Spike's "reformation",
I'm not sure that is what's in the cards for him. Spike has always
exhibited an intriguing mix of empathy and brutality. He often
seems to understand the "right" thing to do in a situation,
but, being soulless, has had a tough time really being motivated
to do it. He has found a great motivator in Buffy, but the question
remains whether his love for her is enough to overcome his evil
nature, or whether Buffy will be the one to destroy any vestige
of humanity left in him...she has amazing power over him and it
could turn either way at this point. I've been intrigued by the
posts that view this story arc as one that threatens Buffy. If
anyone is threatened, it's Spike. He's being offered what seems
to be his greatest wish. Is it real? Can he handle it? Can he
be what Buffy will want him to be? What if what is being offered
to him *isn't* real? What if Buffy *is* using him? I don't think
that he could take it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Sounds reasonable to me. You go, girl -- Masq, 11:31:18
11/22/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Am I the only one who doesn't want to see Buffy and
Spike together? ("Smashed" SPOILERS) -- CaptainPugwash,
11:37:47 11/22/01 Thu
I think Buffy/Spike will end up rather like the Buffy/Faith situation.
Spike and Faith have both tried to bring Buffy down to their level
by appealing to her dark/selfish side. With Faith, Buffy found
the confidence to forget about all of Faith's 'excuses' (I'm bad
because...) and assert that she WAS 'better' than her.
Spike is doing the same thing by telling her she's bad, getting
her drunk, and showing her his life (kitten-poker and all). Eventually,
Buffy will overcome her self-doubts and assert (as she did in
Season 5) that he is 'beneath' her. I don't how far she will descend
before she re-disovers her essential goodness and starts believing
in it again.
William is not a desirable character at all. I've noticed that
many of humans that get vamped in BtVS are already outcasts/'failures'
etc whose hatred of successful society is cultivated by being
constantly spurned by said society. This imprint is taken up by
the vamp demon, and the new entity now has the means to achieve
all that person couldn't achieve before. In some ways, the psyche
of the Troika is no different from your average vamp. They are
rejects that have acquired the means to exact vengeance/achieve
dominance.
Even the amnesia Spike has flaws - Buffy just 'helps the helpless'
because its her job. For William/Spike, its just an ego-trip.
He wants to be the 'big good' instead of the 'big bad' - what's
the difference?
Spike and William are actually very similar; Spike is just William
with power. Now, without that power (the chip) Spike is almost
a mirror fow William; he dedicates his entire existence to seducing
a woman who is quite frankly above him (as he did before). He's
only succeeding because Buffy is so weak at the moment; she was
impenetrable (no pun intended) in Season 5.
For me, the biggest mystery about Spike is his love for Dawn because
I can't construct a plausible self-interest scenario for it (neither
could Buffy after Spike was tortured in Season 5). If you're looking
for Spike's redemption, then that's where you'll find it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Some generalizations... -- WillowFan, 12:20:13 11/22/01
Thu
William is not a desirable character at all. I've noticed that
many of humans that get vamped in BtVS are already outcasts/'failures'
etc whose hatred of successful society is cultivated by being
constantly spurned by said society. This imprint is taken up by
the vamp demon, and the new entity now has the means to achieve
all that person couldn't achieve before. In some ways, the psyche
of the Troika is no different from your average vamp. They are
rejects that have acquired the means to exact vengeance/achieve
dominance.
This sounds like a generalization based on what we know about
Spike, Angel, and Darla. I mean, how do you explain Harmony? She
wasn't an "outcast" or a "failure" (by her
standards, anyway).
Spike and William are actually very similar; Spike is just William
with power.
I agree with that, except for the fact that William had the chance
to mature, to grow up. If he hadn't been vamped, he might have
eventually gotten over Cecily, and over women who consider him
"beneath" them, in general. He would have found a woman
who appreciates him, just as he is. Spike's chance to grow and
mature in this context has been aborted. That's why I think William
would have made a good boyfriend -- he had the potential to change
-- while Spike could never be a good boyfriend, because he's unable
(or unwilling?) to change.
Now, without that power (the chip) Spike is almost a mirror fow
William; he dedicates his entire existence to seducing a woman
who is quite frankly above him (as he did before).
I don't see it that way. William seemed to be a good person. There
was a kindness about him. He just needed to get over his pining-over-a-bitch
phase, which he could have done if he hadn't been vamped. Spike
is doomed to stay in this phase, to repeat this over and over
with different unavailable women, because he just can't seem to
mature. I thought he was genuinely growing until "Smashed,"
when he was ready to kill again once he thought the chip wasn't
working. He hasn't grown at all. He's just a big loser who happens
to be physically attractive and witty; unfortunately, a lot of
women are attracted to these types (I was), but sometimes we get
eventually over it and give the "William"s of the world
a chance.
For me, the biggest mystery about Spike is his love for Dawn because
I can't construct a plausible self-interest scenario for it [...]
Dawn has (or had) a crush on Spike. She's an ego trip for him,
so he wants to keep her alive. And, of course, he uses his protectiveness
of Dawn to impress Buffy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: One point about Dawn... -- Aquitaine, 12:29:23
11/22/01 Thu
**** For me, the biggest mystery about Spike is his love for Dawn
because I can't construct a plausible self-interest scenario for
it [...] ****
[i]Dawn has (or had) a crush on Spike. She's an ego trip for him,
so he wants to keep her alive. And, of course, he uses his protectiveness
of Dawn to impress Buffy.[/i]
I think there's more to it than that. He was there with her in
Blood Ties and Forever without any real, overt motive besides
a strange instinct to protect her. I have no clue whether Spike
is redeemable. I don't really care, truth be known. I'm interested
in whether his being around can make the world a better place.
Spike's presence, IMO, has only been beneficial to Dawn at this
point.
-Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Dawn, and Spike's capacity to change --
astrid, 17:36:33 11/23/01 Fri
"Dawn has (or had) a crush on Spike. She's an ego trip for
him, so he wants to keep her alive. And, of course, he uses his
protectiveness of Dawn to impress Buffy.
I think there's more to it than that. He was there with her in
Blood Ties and Forever without any real, overt motive besides
a strange instinct to protect her. I have no clue whether Spike
is redeemable. I don't really care, truth be known. I'm interested
in whether his being around can make the world a better place.
Spike's presence, IMO, has only been beneficial to Dawn at this
point. "
In the Buffyverse, "redemption" has never been as simple
as good intent and good actions, or even as hard work and loyal
service. Redemption seems to be a combination of intent and action,
and it's certainly a journey, rather that some event in which
you suddenly wake up and you're good and redeemed.
Redemption is not something that comes from personal change. If
it were, Angel would be redeemed the moment he got his soul back,
because he was sorry, and no longer wished to behave as he had
done. Personal change and good intentions are certainly part of
it, but actions are part of it also. I see redemption in the Buffyverse
in a somewhat existentialist sense, in which you are the sum of
the choices that you have made in the past, but you are never
defined solely by that past. There's a succession of choices,
little and big, that you string together one piece at a time to
make up your life, and it can have a direction (positive or negative)
but it doesn't have a finite value. At least, not until you're
dead.
The journey of redemption, differently reflected in Angel and
in Spike (and I think also in Darla), is what happens at each
crucial moment where you have to make a decision, and you choose
one way over another. The quality of the decision is not only
in the intent (do you believe it's the right thing, or the wrong
thing) but also in the action itself, and the outcome. Angel slept
with Darla knowing that it was the wrong thing, intent on self-destruction,
but that ultimately led to what Darla called "the only good
thing we ever did together", and something very like *her*
redemption. And maybe the child is part of Angel's - who knows?
The key part to this is that in Angel:tS and in Buffy, redemption
is a combination of the direction of intent (self) and action
(world). The idea of the importance of being "tied to the
world" crops up again and again. In Fool for Love, Spike
tells Buffy that she has survived so long only because of her
ties to friends and family. In Becoming, Spike chooses to side
with Buffy to save the world from Angel, partly because of Drusilla,
but partly also because he is too tied to the world to let it
be destroyed (love for Drusilla itself is a tie to humanity for
him). Early in Angel:tS, Doyle explains to Angel that if he is
to do good, he has to have ties to the world, that good actions
done without love and compassion ultimately can turn to evil.
The implication is that being a force for good in the world is
inseparably tied with humanity, in the sense that being good comes
from having ties, from loving, from having committments and acting
to meet them.
Over time, Spike's choices in the face of the world he is confronted
with have tied him ever-increasingly to humanity. I think his
relationship with Dawn fits into this. Once Buffy is dead, the
initial reason for him to look after her family is gone - and
yet he stays, and watches Dawn, seemingly out of a sense of both
attachment and maybe even some odd kind of honor (he tells Dawn
that he has to make up for his failure to keep his promise to
protect her). The old Spike would never have stayed with Dawn
even when his ulterior motive (Buffy) was dead. Even he doesn't
seem to know why he does, since it goes against his opinion of
himself as the "big bad". Yet, his actions in that instance
are good.
It may not be that he is capable, as a vampire, of wanting change,
but change seems to have found him anyway. Whether it's something
he sought or not, he's not exactly the vampire that he used to
be. Is it redemption even if you don't want to be redeemed, and
don't care if you are? Maybe, although I think maybe not, as such.
But it's certainly change. You can change without being redeemed.
You can tend towards the good, commit good actions, without being
redeemed. I think that's where Spike is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Some generalizations... -- Naomi, 10:38:23
11/23/01 Fri
I think that Dawn means more to Spike than an ego trip. He made
a great effort to comfort her in Tough Love for example about
her origins. He has also helped her in Forever without Buffy's
knowledge. In fact he was actually afraid of Buffy's reaction
so I think the writers were trying to tell us something there.
Spike also underwent torture to protect Buffy and Dawn. He was
risking death so he was hardly simply trying to impress Buffy
as Buffy loving him would hardly have benefited him if he was
dead. He also took care of Dawn when Buffy wasn't around. And
what evidence do you have that he was simply doing it because
Dawn once had a crush on him? I don't remember him even being
made aware that Dawn had a crush. And even if he did know I doubt
he would care. He loves Buffy. And Dawn's crush didn't last long
as she liked another boy in The Body. She also once liked Xander
so like many teenagers she is pretty fickle and I doubt her feelings
for Spike remain. The two of them have built a genuine friendship
and I am unsure about where you get the idea that it revolves
around hero worshio on Dawn's part and Spike's ego on his part.
Wht evidence do you have? And how is Spike unwilling/unable to
change? I would say that he's changed a lot since the beginning
of season 5. He left flowers in Forever to pay his respects to
Joyce. and is currently fighting alongside the good guys after
all. He had to talk himself into bitting the woman in Smashed
and for all we know he may have been very remorsefull afterwards.
He was mainly testing whether or not the chip definitely didn't
work IMO. It was the logical thing to do. There is no question
that he was in the wrong but I don't see why one wrong act should
cancel out all