November 2003 posts

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Who Really Lead the Fang Gang? -- Claudia, 16:32:08 11/08/03 Sat

I'm not sure if this is accurate, but was Angel/Angelus the true leader of the Fang Gang? Or did he lead by proxy for Darla? The reason I ask this is I had just finished watching "Darla" (AtS S2) and it seemed to me that aside from her decision to choose Angel over the Master, she more or less ruled over "the Scourge of Europe".


[> Kyser Soze is the leader of course -- lakrids, 18:53:06 11/08/03 Sat

[> Re: Who Really Lead the Fang Gang? -- sharpetoo, 19:03:39 11/08/03 Sat

When I first saw the episodes with Angelus and Darla I thought that it was Darla running the show. She manipulated Liam so that he killed his family and then revealed that it was all for nought. It seemed to me that that she was playing Angelus for her own private game.

This continued in that they never loved each other but rather played sick power games between each other. Angel had only one true love and it was't Darla.

And Darla only loved one person and that person's name started with "Darl" and ended with "A".

wolfram and Hart employees -- head_wizard, 21:17:08 11/08/03 Sat

If the Beast killed all of Wolfram and Harts employees Why do the current employees mention old Halloween parties, and the special opts unit seemed to act like it has worked there for years and why was number 5 around in the last episode since he has worked for Wolframn and Hart for years?


[> Re: wolfram and Hart employees -- Corwin of Amber, 21:22:15 11/08/03 Sat

Come now. A little old thing like DEATH doesn't mean you stop working for Wolfram and Hart.

[> W&H has many branches -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:53:42 11/08/03 Sat

I'm betting that the staff Angel and Co. have now was shipped in from various other Wolfram & Hart branches across the world.

[> They're Back......... -- undeadenglishpatient, 09:05:27 11/09/03 Sun

I've been asking that same question. It's happened so many times: new discoveries of employees that seem to know quite a bit about the LA office, still working there after Lilah specifically said, that she was the only one left. That included field ops, liasons, people out sick that day...bla bla bla.

It's not just the ones you mentioned, there are more coming up and I don't think ME would have made that many continutiy errors. So here's what I'm thinking:

1. Mr. Hainsley (from Just Rewards) reanimated the zombies with demons.

2. They were turned into cyborg robots...half zombie, half robot.

Is anyone familiar with the HYDRA from Marvel? I'm thinking W&H is alot like that.

[> Re: wolfram and Hart employees -- Ames, 09:24:12 11/09/03 Sun

Restored the next day from the backup in the vault, naturally.

[> Alternate reality -- mamcu, 09:59:36 11/09/03 Sun

I think everyone all shifted into alternate reality created when Connor's new past was created and he vanished from everyone's reality but Angel's. To me the incongruity is that Angel knows both realities. the W&H employees weren't killed in this reality--did the Beast, Cordy, Jasmine, Lilah ever exist?

[> [> Re: Alternate reality [teensy spoiler for 5.1] -- LittleBit, 13:47:10 11/09/03 Sun

Can't say about the Beast and Jasmine, but as Lilah was on the show as early as "The Ring" in season 1 and was involved in both Faith's storyline and Darla's return as human, I would think they should at least know she had been there. And in "Conviction" they all clearly knew that Cordelia was in a coma.

[> [> [> About Lilah.. -- whistler, 07:48:25 11/10/03 Mon

They saw Lilah in "Home" in the last scene when Angel asked to see Connor, which was after the mindwipe. So I think we can assume they do know she has a part at bringing them to W&H. What we don't know is if other stuff with her happened..the relationship with Wesley, for example.

My analysis of 'TCToNC' (Angel 5.6) is up -- Masquerade, 22:52:25 11/09/03 Sun

Andale'! Fight along side Los Hermanos Numeros here.


[> Yay! Thanks, Masq : ) -- Scroll, 00:15:11 11/11/03 Tue

[> No it isn't. -- RichardX1, 16:40:30 11/11/03 Tue

[> [> Yuh huh! -- Rob, 12:56:31 11/12/03 Wed

[> Thanks, Masq. Well done, as usual. And I appreciate the quotage. -- cjl, 13:56:29 11/12/03 Wed

Does it matter? -- LittleBit, 23:49:27 11/09/03 Sun

Excerpted from Long Hot Summoning by Tanya Huff:

'...if Arthur was dead, things would be happening.'
'Things. Bad things.'
Kris' gesture covered the alcove, the chains, and the general dungeonlike tone of the decor. 'Worse than this?'
'Much. Season finale of Buffy worse.'
'Which season?'
'Does it matter?'

When I first read this bit of dialogue I laughed and though "Hey...great Buffy reference!" But after a while I began to wonder "Does it matter?" Thinking back over the seven seasons and multiple apocalypses, I began to realize that well, yes, it does matter, and to consider what would have been the outcome of each particular apocalypse if it hadn't been prevented. Not long term outcome, but just the immediate foreseeable one. And not necessarily just the season finale ones. (Thus having the fun of deciding what events actually qualify as which case you get my interpretations).

The Harvest: This one was the simplest to do because we did actually see the outcome of Buffy never having come to Sunnydale in "The Wish." The Master was freed, many died, or were turned, the Master had developed a 'factory' for extracting blood from humans. Since the Master survived the big battle one could assume that the vampires would multiply and spread their reign of terror. Bad news for humans here.

Nightmares: Had Buffy not been able to reach Billy Palmer and pull him out of his coma, then the nightmares of the entire population of Sunnydale would have overrun the town. There is a distinct possibility that they could have overrun a much wider area; the nature of nightmares being such that there is no limitation to that which our subconscious can terrorize us with. We even had a Vampire Slayer Vampire who was starting to get hungry. I know this episode isn't normally considered one of the apocalyptic ones, but I tend to consider the potential horrors of everyone's nightmares becoming real to be a threat as strong, if not stronger, than the Master. Definitely bad news for humans, and potentially not good news for demons.

Prophecy Girl: We did see the beginnings of what would happen had Xander not been able to resuscitate Buffy. The Master was free and the Hellmouth was opened. The Hellmouth beast was emerging, one assumes only the first of many demons and/or monsters to come forth. The Master was acting as if he was directing things, or at least as if he believed it was emerging at his behest. Only the fact that Buffy was still in the game when by all rights she shouldn't have been changed the outcome. So I'm thinking that we would have had The Wish scenario, only with the addition of the opened Hellmouth. Perhaps the Master would be attempting to bring the "Old Ones" back into this world. Not good news for the humans.

Innocence: Another event not usually considered apocalyptic, but I think it meets the criteria. When the Judge was reassembled and brought back to life, the world was faced with a single demon who was capable of burning the humanity out of people. When he was at his full power it took an army to take him down and even then they couldn't destroy him but merely try to make certain that he wouldn't be reassembled. The lucky feature is that he was from an age when military weaponry was still the sword because while it had been true that no weapon forged could stop him, it didn't take into account contemporary fire power. Nor did it take into account modern weapons manufacturing techniques, which don't usually involved forging in the traditional sense. Had he not been stopped he would have posed at least as much of a threat as the ascended Mayor, or as Angel said, he would bring forth Armageddon. Bad news for the plague of humanity, and the righteous ones.

Becoming: Angelus intends to restore the Demon Acathla from the stone form he was in. Acathla would then create a vortex that would literally suck this world into a hell dimension where any "non-demon" life will endure eternal torture. Angelus did indeed activate Acathla by pulling the sword out following the appropriate ritual. Acathla was beginning to create the vortex when Buffy sent the newly re-souled Angel into it, closing it with his blood. In this case, the world as we know it would have ended and all humanity would have been in torment for all eternity. No hugs and puppies for the humans.

The Zeppo: The Sisterhood of Jhe intends to open the Hellmouth, allowing demons easy entrance to this world. They were unable to prevent the opening but through the combined efforts of two Slayers, a vampire, a Watcher and a witch the beast is contained and forced back into the Hellmouth, after which the Hellmouth is closed. In this case it was unclear whether or not the demonic sisterhood thought to control the beast and other demons or to simply give them free access to do whatever they chose. Once again, though, bad news for humans.

Graduation: Once again, they were unable to actually prevent the event, but were able to work out a plan for minimizing the effects and destroying the newly-ascended MayorDemon. It involved blowing up the school, but the Mayor was destroyed. Following the Mayor's ascension into full demonhood it was written that he "would walk the earth and darkness will descend upon all. The races of man would be as one in their terror and destruction." If Buffy and the entire graduating class of Sunnydale High hadn't stopped him, it seems likely that a great deal more destruction and death would have been much, much greater. It's possible that the Initiative might have become involved in trying to stop him. (Riley did indicate that he'd been there for a couple of years, and they might have been able to bring enough fire power to be successful.) Otherwise, humans have more bad news.

Doomed: The Vahral demons are gathering three artifacts in order to perform a ritual opening of the Hellmouth. In this case, they are prevented from accomplishing it. Again though, had they not succeeded in stopping this, the Hellmouth would have opened and demons would have had an easy access to this world. Not good for humans.

Primeval: At the time when they stopped him Adam's plans were still in the initial stages. He had convinced the demons of various races and the vampires to work together in order to successfully reclaim the world. He had begun creating hybrids like himself... human, demon and machine. In some ways Adam posed a greater threat to humanity than the opening of the Hellmouth. He was able to get the demons and vampires to work together in order to trap the Initiative scientists and soldiers, but what they didn't know is that Adam looked on that battle as a means to gather the material he needed to make more Demon-cyborgs like himself. Had Adam succeeded demons would have been threatened, but humanity may well have been doomed.

The Gift: Glorificus was just a simple Hell god who wanted to go home. But the method she chose was one that would not only allow her entrance to her own dimension, but break down the barriers between all dimensions so that they bleed into one another creating chaos throughout the entire universe. When Dawn's blood drips we see the beginning of the process. It doesn't seem likely that humans would be able to survive if this world and all the other dimensions, hell or otherwise, become one and chaos rules. Bad news for humans and for the universe.

Grave: Willow, unable to bear the pain in the world once she feels it, decides that the only way to make it go away is to make the entire world go away. She believes that she is saving the world. If she hadn't been stopped the world would have been ended. All humanity gone; no more pain for anyone. Good news-no more pain; bad news-no more anything.

Chosen: Facing the First Evil, and the hordes of Turok-Han, with the prospect of an all-out war between humanity and Evil provided the impetus for the greatest change ever to happen to the Slayer line. If this war had not been prevented then the earth would have been overrun and humans would have been hard pressed to maintain existence in the resulting chaos. There would have been a new Slayer chosen when Faith died, but no Watcher, or Watcher's Council, to guide and train her. The news for humans is again not good.

So, yes, I do think it matters. In "Grave" we have the only instance where the intended outcome was literally the ending of the world. All humanity gone. In "Becoming" the world would have been sucked into a hell dimension, thus subjecting any non-demons to eternal torment. In "The Gift" all dimensions were bleeding together, the assumption being that the longer the Key was operational the less defined any single dimension would be, If it did finally close when the blood flowed no longer, and assuming that the barriers were restored, the world as we know it would no longer exist. Opening the Hellmouth (Prophecy Girl", "The Zeppo", "Doomed") will allow demons freer access to this world, but while humans would be killed, we do know that the old ones were banished from this world at one time, so there would be hope that they could do so again. The same could be said of "Chosen." In "The Harvest" the Master would have been freed, but as we saw in "The Wish" there was still a good possibility of stopping him. Adam gave them a unique challenge, and things would have been difficult for humans if he had gone unchecked, but it would still be this world and if UberBuffy had not been brought against him, there were still other groups of magick practitioners, and science itself that could have stopped him. The same could be said of the ascended Mayor, and for the Judge. There were other incidences of demon ascensions and the Judge had walked before, and while things were bad they also recovered.

So if it came down to it, I'd rank "Becoming", "Grave" and "The Gift" as the 'worst' potential apocalypses, with "Nightmares" as a wild card here.

Comments? Other viewpoints?


[> Re: Does it matter? -- skpe, 08:39:48 11/10/03 Mon

The stated wish of the first was to destroy the balance of good and evil and thereby 'End it all'. So I think I would
Rate "Chosen" a little higher. The Devin coven world I think have a backup plan agesnt evil willow if she did not go for the bait that was Giles. So I would put that one a little lower. My ranking would be "The Gift"," Becoming" and "Chosen"

[> [> Re: Does it matter? -- skeeve, 09:22:36 11/10/03 Mon

The best plan for dealing with snitty-Willow would have been for Anya to tap her on the shoulder and suggest that she wish that all Warren's bullets had missed living things.

The answer to the subject question is probably not, as least not in the sense that it should affect one's decision-making.

[> [> Re: Does it matter? -- LittleBit, 21:13:06 11/10/03 Mon

Actually, the FE gave differing goals. In "Conversations With Dead People" the FE-as-Cassie said it was through with the mortal coil and no longer cared about the balance of good-vs-evil...intending to go out with a bang. Then, later, in "End of Days," the FE says it going to make Caleb a god, after its will sweeps the world it will enter and merge with every man, woman and child. So it's not entirely clear that the world would end. If the world would indeed end, then I would put it up with "Grave", but still below "Becoming" and above "The Gift."

Whether or not there were backup plans didn't enter into my decisions because they were based on what the outcome of the apocalypse would be if it wasn't stopped. In "Becoming" all non-demons would be subjected to eternal torment which, for me, would be worse than the world just ending. For the others, as long as there was a chance the world would continue, there's still a chanced for humanity.

And yes, I'm being particularly humancentric.

[> Re: Does it matter? -- VampRiley, 21:49:11 11/11/03 Tue

I always found Prophecy Girl to be a major downer, compared to the others, and a bit dull on its own.

[> My ordering -- VR, 20:06:44 11/12/03 Wed

1) The Gift
2) Nightmares
2) Primeval
2) Doomed
2) The Zeppo
2) The Harvest
2) Chosen
3) Innocence
4) Becoming
5) Graduation
6) Grave
7) Prophecy Girl

Royal Males: Lorne, Angel and the British Postal System (Angel Odyssey 5.5-5.6) -- Tchaikovsky, 10:37:28 11/10/03 Mon

Well, that's quite a title. Doesn't make any sense, but what it lacks in quality, it makes up in sheer quantity. Quantity not quality, my school teacher always used to tell me. I think.

And so to the sidebar about these reviews: due, I believe, to the Royal Mail, I received at excellent speed, (post haste, I suppose), 5.5 and 5.6 this morning. However, due to the postal strikes, I believe that some of the earlier sent post has been held up, and the backlog is being slowly cleared away, which is why I don't have 5.4, or indeed KdS' weeks-ago-sent Firefly tape. So I'm going to review these two out of order, and if Spike's infernal dalliances make much difference to what these two episodes said to me, I'll make a note of that later. Frankly, I doubt it will much alter my opinion on...

5.5- 'Life of the Party'

It pains me to do this again, as I'm a massive Lorne-lover, and some of the episodes that Lorne squiggles round the outside of are some of my personal favourites (Judgement, Happy Anniversary, Tomorrow). But when we focus on Lorne as a straight-ahead, in the narrative, no special measures character, the show crashes and burns, intent on adding conflict and personal interests to a character who's not about that. Lorne's not about existentialist struggle, the impossibility of redemption. He's about reflection. Which is why an episode all about Lorne and mirrors should have worked, and why it failed. Because here, we are not seeing Lorne reflecting others' problems, empathising, chipping in, and being the narrative voice. Here Lorne is merely the reflection of himself in a big, green Hulk-ish monster. And that means approximately nothing.

Give me Lorne-as-Greenwalt any day. Even Lorne as the writers holds nicely, particularly in the structure which redeems the slightly vacuous Spin the Bottle. Here we get Lorne failing to be 'the Host of the Party' all the time. He's living a 24/7 existence, and in order to do that, he's had his sleep removed. The most interesting parallel for this is the parallel for Gunn. The way that Gunn commends Lorne for his idea is a little worrying, and the fact that Lorne's apparently innocent tampering has consequences means that it's almost inevitable that Gunn is going to get a similarly rude awakening someday soon. But when we get to Lorne paralleling Gunn, fourth billed in this episode, something wonky's happening.

I thought that Ben Edlund's Sacrifice was magnificent, but now I'm wondering whether, like Supersymmetry and Selfless, there was a lot of help behind the debutant which made it so slick. Here the thematic resonances are all a bit off. Maybe it's because I'm digging for more than is there, in which case it is just shallow, and I resort to not watching it again. But here's an attempt at what might be happening underneath the Partiness.

Reflection, mirrors, duality of self seems crucial to the episode. We get Lorne talking to his reflection at the beginning. Then we get the magic windows- the distortion of view that Wolfram and Hart brings to Angel's life. Next, the mirrorball spreads Lorne's unknown influence throughout the party. Lorne, sleepless, is devoid of the shadow self, the reflection of the mirror, that sleep brings. In a dreamless state, Lorne has no time for self-reflection. And this means that instead of reflecting on himself personally, of taking time to iron things out and work out how other people see him, he must merely soldier on, having self-reflection forced on him by his diffident friends.

And so, extremely tenuously, we reach Angel. Angel is the bloke working 18 hour days, with no time to get emotionally involved in what he's doing. He's CEO-ing so much he barely has time to watch Ice Hockey. Lorne's situation is just a shadow, the long-needed reflection into Angel's life, his disconnection, is inability to consider what he's doing under the stress of a million little tasks- killing, signing, discussing things with Eve the tempter. Self-awareness is the thing that Angel is lacking at this stage in the season, swept under the carpet where family and emotional investment lived, to be finally rediscovered by a veteran wrestler. For now, Lorne's situation is merely Angel's.

Also salvaged from the rapidly sinking ship- Fred and Wesley's chemistry is interesting. We're back just before Billy except that Wesley now has no Cordelia to tell him to go for it or otherwise. And it appears again that Fred's affections may be falling elsewhere, this time for Knox. In the meanwhile, Fred's drunken outbursts about friendships is difficult for Wesley to take, the eternal dilemma of the loving and unloved. Inebriation negates self-awareness, and Fred hasn't quite the nous to see what's going on here. She could do with a good few hours sleep as well, and slightly less of the machine which is partly magical and partly scientific. This machine is symbolic of Angel, and indeed the gang as a whole. They don't know quite what they are, and, stuck between two stools, they don't have anywhere to sit down and rest their weary heads.

But it has to be said that this episode is the weakest since way back to, I'm afraid The House Always Wins, the last Lorne-centric episode and another ugly failure. And here are some of the reasons why:

-The pacing in the first act was some of the slowest ever. There was so little going on that Eve's sledgehammer 'ethical tightrope' line was about as interesting as it got. And that's not very interesting when it's been done infinitely better by Joss Whedon in the premiere.

-You have to be in trouble when you're recycling a Tracey Forbes story. Something Blue was a poor episode in a season full of excellent standalones, and this is a worse example. There's nothing gained at all from Angel's sex with Eve, Wesley and Fred being drunk, Gunn marking his territory (another marginally disconcerting Animalistic!Gunn reference post Home), or Lorne being a huge monster who looks like an in-shape Shrek. And we get Mercedes McNab utterly wasted in an episode which is supposed to be funny.

-The resolution is tedious, the moral is blurry, the direction is uninspiring.

Well, Edlund has a little to prove. He needs to go back and look very carefully to see how Sacrifice worked. Because in such an excellent team of writers, episodes like that are going to stick out like a Nemo in a shoal full of cod.

5.6- 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco'

I verged on stern there, didn't I? Cool. Anyhow, no need for that with this episode. I couldn't quite resist reading cjl's review of this, and he knocks the nail right into the centre of the opposing guy's mask as usual. This is a very beautifully written, directed and scored episode, the best of the season so far, and working on thematic levels in precisely the way the previous episode failed to do.

First a note to Rob Kral and co for their excellent Spanish music on the episode. It gave Los Angeles a whole different ambience which worked spectacularly well. The final Rodrigo-esque guitar solo was very poignant, and the earlier Latin tones gave the show a quite distinct, unique feeling. At times watching this episode, I was reminded of Are You Now or Have You Ever Been? in the way that, while fitting perfectly with the show's canon and feeling, there was a totally foreign quality about the episode which made it quite compelling.

We start with Lorne and Fred, the Wonderwoman, Everywoman, a dichotomy which is interesting. We've often had Fred as the Everyman character since the beatification of Cordelia after Birthday, particularly in Tomorrow, where her super friends disappear to the opposite ends of the atmosphere. But we've also had Fred as the exceptional, the surprisingly adept physicist, resourceful in This Old Gang of Mine, Fredless and Billy, and threatening in Deep Down and Conviction. Here she is more than average- she is the type of person who could be head of Science in Wolfram and Hart, the exceptional intelligence, the outstanding mind.

And throughout the episode, there is this dichotomy being played with. If we are Angel, are we really a Champion? A Hero? What makes us different from anything else, the stronger person. It's not merely strength or intelligence- resolve and self-confidence works in there as well. Eventually, this episode's outer moral, that people who are amazing can always be heroic, is rather deeper and more powerful- that we are all potential Heroes if only we believe. It is Angel's re-engagement with belief, expertly shadowing the story of Numero Cinco, that makes the central message so powerful.

Spike is an interesting cog in this episode's wheel. Not immediately apparent as being crucial, but ultimately the person whom Angel wonders about by the end. We've had the suggestion that Spike could be the vampire to become human in Just Rewards, which Angel interrupts before Wesley can explain. Here, it becomes totally explicit. Spike is still wondering about his achievement, what he did standing back there in Sunnydale. How it relates to him as a Hero or otherwise. It wasn't an empty gesture- it saved the world and it saved Buffy. And it may be partly this, the utility of his sacrifice- what may now seem, in his retconning mind, the calculated risk of his sacrifice- to be redeemed from fire by fire, the amulet's fire, the fire of re-incarnation, the Holy Spirit. Because Spike did what was clearly right, and has ended up maintaining his existence, still on the ever changing leash which has always restrained him from the full expression of his self- he may believe he did very little. He may now be having trouble engaging with the emotional life of this former him, and understanding just what he did. Now the Hero is toothless, the neutered puppy. He can't understand how he can be a Hero.

Whether Spike's tete-a-tete with Fred is false modesty or not is debatable. I would argue not- it is with Fred, as with Buffy, Drusilla and Ann before her, that he feels he can speak about his personal struggle, speak as if to himself. Spike's not sure whether what he did- the mere colourlessness of standing there, of being purged from his sins, merits heroism. Because he's back, and that wasn't the final word. The rest ain't silence.

This is not so far away from Angel's thoughts at the moments. We haev the grand sweeping gesture of Home, and then an utter lack of resolution. Not only does the only difference become the absence of something, (such an intangible anti-presence that it's always a little unsatisfying, the absence of the dripping tap syndrome), but also, it's an achievement that nobody else knows about. And so the struggle continues. And the harvest reaped by Angel's decision is the harvest where he is Wolfram and Hart's boss. So, unsure of his position, he like Spike tries to work out how to be a Hero. Spike does it without physical essence, and Angel is trying to do it without emotional essence. His re-engagement depends on a chance re-meeting.

By accepting the Belly of the Beast as his new penthouse, Angel has swallowed Fred, Gunn, Wesley and Lorne along with himself in his unilateral decision. It is no co-incidence that he is Number Five in the group, the one who survives all this, worried that it is his friends who will get harmed. In the meantime, he wears the warpaint of the children of the island in Lord of the Flies- Number Five's mask. It is crucially important when the wrestler says that he can never let go of the warrior in himself, the hero. Now he only wears it in memory of his brothers, rather than as the Hero he once was. While once he was the beautifully choreographed wrestling of the 50's, he is now merely one member in a band of parodying mocking dwarfs. He has become a parody of himself, shutting away what used to be special about him, allowing time to erode everything away to dust and Wolfram and Hart's shiny new corridors.

It is interesting that he is both the Deserting Hero and the Deserted Hero. Originally, to him, it is his brothers who desert him, no longer there to be the incredible group who are so powerful against demons. But in his own way, he turns his back on the past, honouring no longer the clan's mission statement, disconnected from them, lacking the heart which the other brothers were shorn of. That he is cold and unfeeling, yearning only for a past which has evaded him, is the sentiment by which we learn most about Angel. He cannot connect with his cases at this new place- where he signs Gunn's legalese and makes miracles happen while thinking about coffee. His fighting isn't for the violence, it's for the emotion, the connection. Nina cowering in the dark. It is not that he's a drama queen, merely that he's bored, the ironic reflection of someone working too hard at things they're not interested in.

The emotional investment in Number Five, the magnificent synchronicity in their journeys, comes to a head when we see the ounce of resolve left in Number Five, in the way that he helps to kill the demon again. He only pretends that the talisman is in his stomach, thereby preoccupying the demon and helping the raised old brothers to help him once more. Finally, Angel seals the day, playing by the old brothers' rules, (realising that they pin someone as a means to victory, not as hollow artistry) and becoming emotionallu involved in what's going on. The Hero reasserts himself. Angel and Numero Cinco. But Angel goes one stage further, in living as a Hero rather than merely dying as one.

Who can be a Hero? Spike, wondering about whether he could become human with Wesley? Angel, being explained to by Wesley how he's 'lost the hope that the work has meaning', and that, gothically considering the episode 'your heart's not in it'? Wesley himself, poring through the prophecies, still not understanding of the journey in shadow, where once the three pairs The Father/Will Kill/ The Son meant more to him than anything in the world? Gunn, the super-endowed, enjoying himself for the first time ever? All of them have had Holland Manners' card passed to them (a lovely detail in the flashback sequence), and all of them have to use the card as oregami, to build themselves something they themselves can connect with, something that leaves them hoping for real good, and believing that they are a part of the tasks which they do not for a reward, but because it's right. Angel reads the Codex not to re-assert a goal, but to reconnect with his own story, to understand his life's emotional pattern. That's something that Bell does beautifully.

Right down to the smallest details in fact. Sometimes, it's not the mindless bureaucratic ephemera, it's the instinct, the feeling, the scan of the iambs thumping carnally against the verse's ribcage. In the end, we are left with Spike's correct supposition, and the person deep down, the over-riding emotional arc of his, where, he, connected with all that has happens, says, with utter certainty: 'No love. In the poetry'.



[> Always a pleasure, TCH. (spoilers for ANGEL 5.5 and 5.6) -- cjl, 12:20:16 11/10/03 Mon

I'm a lot more positive about "Life of the Party" than you are, possibly because I witnessed (both first and second-hand) shadowkat's encounters with a RL British Lorne (yep, he's just like the unreal thing) and because of some of the truly bizarro spins in Edlund's script. Sebassis and his court were unusually distinctive for a demon-of-the-week posse; Devlin's mask and "human" imitation ("my other car is a Lambourghini"), Artaud's Pylean skin coat and the sheer freakish spectacle of Sebassis' living decanter were unique touches.

I can't quite understand why Lorne-as-protagonist throws off some people. The fact that he's an empath and usually reflects on everybody else's problems doesn't mean he's not entitled to desires, conflicts and miseries of his own. As for the Hulk bit? It was so obvious and tempting (hey, they're both green--nyuk nyuk nyuk), maybe ME should have resisted. But if I were in their place, I don't know if I would have had the strength, either.

My reaction to "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco," in some ways, reflected Angel's reaction to the events of the episode. (Always a good sign when the writer puts you squarely in the POV of the main character.) If Marx is right, and history repeats itself--the first time as tragedy, and the second as farce--Angel must feel himself trapped in the bitter farce that is his chairmanship of Wolfram and Hart. Just as I viewed the Mexican wrestling movies of the 1960s and 1970s with complete detachment from the passions that original created the genre, Angel has been wandering through the hallways of Wolfram and Hart cut off from the passions that original drove his mission. Angel rediscovered some of his passion at the end of the episode, and I rediscovered some of the reasons why I loved those wrestling shows when I was a kid.

Jeffrey Bell messed with my head, and in a good way. If they keep going like this, maybe the stand-alones won't be so bad, after all. And I certainly don't miss the "previouslies."

[> [> Yes, the previouslies are unnecessary for us hardy perennials -- Tchaikovsky, 16:14:35 11/10/03 Mon

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I object per se to Lorne as protaginist, it's just that I've found the episodes with Lorne spotlit a lacking a certain something so far. Belonging was quite fun if a little silly, but gained it's brilliant moments from Gunn's return to his dead gang member and Wesley's conversation with his Father. Everyone now knows my views on The House Always Wins and Life of the Party, so I won't re-iterate too much. I suppose if Spin the Bottle counted then that was a Lorne episode I really liked, but the trouble was it's only because they were playing with his character, taking him outside the story. The artiste as the writer and all.

Although I have little wrestling knowledge, I slipped easily into Angel's perspective in Bell's episode, as also into Spike's and Wesley's and Numero Cinco's. By contrast, I felt alienated by everyone but Wesley in Edlund's, which is never a good sign.


[> [> [> Re: Yes, the previouslies are unnecessary for us hardy perennials -- Lunasea, 07:15:20 11/11/03 Tue

By contrast, I felt alienated by everyone but Wesley in Edlund's, which is never a good sign.

but wasn't that the point? None of them were acting themselves. They were acting what Lorne suggested. They were alienated from themselves, every bit as much as Lorne was alienated from his sleep/subconscious. I think we are going to see this more and more as the gang develop masks to survive the belly of the beast and try to silence their nagging doubts that won't be silenced. They will become alienated from themselves and each other.

When the writers can make us feel as the characters, I say they did a good job. Not just give us the characters' perspectives, but really make us feel like the characters. It is one thing to sympathize with Buffy as she sends Angel to hell. It is quite another to feel the loss of Angel ourselves. It is one thing to feel for Angel having to give up Connor. It is quite another to miss the character. Some of us even can feel Angel's annoyance at having to put up with Spike and his wise-ass comments.

I'm not in Angel's perspective. I am Angel.

[> One more nice detail (spoilers 5.06) -- Lunasea, 13:48:51 11/10/03 Mon

This was something Hubby noticed and I don't think I've seen it mentioned before. The demon rose 1953, if it was 50 years ago. 1952 is when "Are You Now or Have You ever Been" occurred. I thought as a chronicler of the Odyssey you would find it interesting what was going on in Angel's and Numero Five's lives at the same time.

[> [> Interesting detail- more synchronicity -- TCH, 16:01:47 11/10/03 Mon

[> Boring Tuesday morning? -- Tchaikovsky, 16:30:30 11/10/03 Mon

Why not visit the website, where you'll find reviews of every aired episode bar one, plus some interesting Buffy stuff?

This has been a commercial for Tchaikovsky's non-sequiturs


[> Previously on Angel (angel 5.6) -- manwitch, 20:55:27 11/10/03 Mon

" And so, extremely tenuously, we reach Angel. Angel is the bloke working 18 hour days, with no time to get emotionally involved in what he's doing. He's CEO-ing so much he barely has time to watch Ice Hockey. Lorne's situation is just a shadow, the long-needed reflection into Angel's life, his disconnection, is inability to consider what he's doing under the stress of a million little tasks- killing, signing, discussing things with Eve the tempter. Self-awareness is the thing that Angel is lacking at this stage in the season, swept under the carpet where family and emotional investment lived, to be finally rediscovered by a veteran wrestler. For now, Lorne's situation is merely Angel's. "

I think this season is more "buffyesque" in its writing style for precisely this reason. It really struck me in the last couple of episodes, from the Spike ep you haven't seen yet through these last two, that the characters aren't just walking along a parallel path with Angel, they metaphorically are Angel. Angel has certainly been much less explicit, and I would say less structured in that regard in earlier seasons. But here they are really hammering it home.

Lorne is Angel's compassion or empathy. His emotional connetcion, as you say. But the direction of causation is not clear. Is Angel losing his empathy because he is in bed with Wolfram and Heart, seduced by their temptations, or is he seduced and in bed with them because he has lost his empathy? At any rate, his spirit and mind (Wesley and Fred) are off balance as a result, as Angel now merely protects his territory and denies the practical efficacy of his own will.

Angel used to have multiple protagonists in a way that Buffy did not. This season, its all Angel. At least it appears that way to me.

No value judgement is intended. As per usual, I have complete confidence in Mutant Enemy.

I figure the "previouslies" are gone because of the memory wipe. they'll be back once that gets sorted out, don't you think?

[> [> I wonder... -- Tchaikovsky, 06:29:48 11/11/03 Tue

Whether the one protagonist with the reflecting minor characters is a consequence of having the more standalone type episode structure. Whereas in the earlier Seasons, (and particularly in the turgid spuernatural soap opera of Season Four), there was time for the arc of each character to emerge, develop, subvert, triple salco and resolve, here we're doused with a new storyline and theme every moment. So maybe there's only time for one character's journey, being narrated in parallel to another. That cold all be false of course.

If the memory wipe is sorted, getting the previouslies back would be an interesting meta-narrative touch, but I'm not sure ME are being that clever. I'm usually wrong about these things though.


[> [> [> Re: I wonder... -- El Diablo Robotico, 07:47:50 11/11/03 Tue

Whether the one protagonist with the reflecting minor characters is a consequence of having the more standalone type episode structure. Whereas in the earlier Seasons, (and particularly in the turgid spuernatural soap opera of Season Four), there was time for the arc of each character to emerge, develop, subvert, triple salco and resolve, here we're doused with a new storyline and theme every moment. So maybe there's only time for one character's journey, being narrated in parallel to another. That cold all be false of course.

The beginning of Season 1, which was also stand-alone, was also all about the MOTW mirroring aspects of Angel.

This could also be a Jossian favorite ploy in storytelling, a personal quirk, and something that Tim Minear was less interested in.

I miss TM. He writes better for Angel than Joss does.

But, then, I also think that one reason everything is a reflection or mirror to Angel this year is because "this is the world that Angel made", all derived from his choice. Angel is front and center in this little world and responsible for all the ways it goes to hell.

[> [> Bringing it all home (general non-spoilery observations of S5) -- Lunasea, 06:46:52 11/11/03 Tue

I was thinking about this yesterday afternoon, how the characters have been representative of what is going on in Angel before (I have written about this before We're Off to See the Wizard), but now it is more up front. The writers admit that they are writing it more ala Buffy, focusing on "what the Angel of an episode is," but I think this is a natural progression in the story.

The various characters on Angel have been forms the archetypes have taken. As Angel works on truly individuating, it would follow that these forms become more reflective of him.

From "Man and His Symbols" Joseph Henderson writes:
These godlike figures are in fact symbolic representatives of the whole psyche, the larger and more comprehensive identity that supplies the strength that the personal ego lacks. Their special role suggests that the essential foundation of the heroic myth is the development of the individual's ego-consciousness--his awareness of his own strengths and weaknesses--in a manner that will equip him for the arduous tasks with which life confronts him.

Angel has always been working on development of the ego-consciousness by dealing with his various complexes/issues that are unknown to him. He has done this by dissociating (The splitting of a personality into its component parts or complexes) and developing masks/personas such as the dreaded "c" word. As such, the supporting characters have been relatively independent of Angel. Now, the libido is such that it pulls for reintegration.

A dissociation is not healed by being split off, but by more complete disintegration. All the powers that strive for unity, all healthy desire for selfhood, will resist the disintegration, and in this way he will become conscious of the possibility of an inner integration, which before he had always sought outside himself. He will then find his reward in an undivided self. ["Marriage as a Psychological Relationship," Collected Works of Jung 17, pars. 334f.]

It may appear that Angel has asserted his individuality by claiming the mantle of Champion, but It is, as its name implies, only a mask of the collective psyche, a mask that feigns individuality, making others and oneself believe that one is individual, whereas one is simply acting a role through which the collective psyche speaks. When we analyse the persona we strip off the mask, and discover that what seemed to be individual is at bottom collective; in other words, that the persona was only a mask of the collective psyche. Fundamentally the persona is nothing real: it is a compromise between individual and society as to what a man should appear to be. He takes a name, earns a title, exercises a function, he is this or that. In a certain sense all this is real, yet in relation to the essential individuality of the person concerned it is only a secondary reality, a compromise formation, in making which others often have a greater share than he. ["The Persona as a Segment of the Collective Psyche," Collected Works 7., pars. 245f.]

As Angel works through realizing that his mask isn't a sign of his individuality, who he is, it would logically flow in the story that the other characters no longer maintain the illusion of being individuals also.

What Angel needs to realize is that he isn't a hero. It is but a mask that he wears. However, that mask comes from what he is. There is, after all, something individual in the peculiar choice and delineation of the persona, and . . . despite the exclusive identity of the ego-consciousness with the persona the unconscious self, one's real individuality, is always present and makes itself felt indirectly if not directly. ["The Persona as a Segment of the Collective Psyche," Collected Works 7, par. 247.]

As the season progresses, his unconscious will assert itself more as the pull to integration gets stronger and stronger. Although the ego-consciousness is at first identical with the persona-that compromise role in which we parade before the community-yet the unconscious self can never be repressed to the point of extinction. Its influence is chiefly manifest in the special nature of the contrasting and compensating contents of the unconscious. The purely personal attitude of the conscious mind evokes reactions on the part of the unconscious, and these, together with personal repressions, contain the seeds of individual development.[The Persona as a Segment of the Collective Psyche," CW 7, par. 247.] The supporting cast will probably also reassert themselves as Angel goes through this process.

A note to Masq: parts of the unconscious (the cast) TOGETHER with personal repressions (the mind wipe) contain the seeds of individual development.

That is just how I see the story developing this season.

[> [> [> Excellent insights -- sdev, 17:44:14 11/11/03 Tue

I think this is a great read on Angel the character/persona and where his story is heading. It explains many of the inexplicable choices he has made over the course of four seasons which conflict with his stated desires.

A dissociation is not healed by being split off, but by more complete disintegration. (Jung)

How do you think this applies to the Angel/Angelus/Liam dissociation?

I note that art therapy is a well-utilized treatment for Dissociation Disorder. Has Angel been drawing lately? Might work better than hockey.

[> [> [> [> Re: Excellent insights -- Lunasea, 09:26:36 11/12/03 Wed

How do you think this applies to the Angel/Angelus/Liam dissociation?

A real answer would require a lengthy essay with lots of references to Dr. Jung's work. I'll try to give a cliff notes version.

A man cannot get rid of himself in favour of an artificial personality without punishment. Even the attempt to do so brings on, in all ordinary cases, unconscious reactions in the form of bad moods, affects, phobias, obsessive ideas, backsliding vices, etc. The social "strong man" is in his private life often a mere child where his own states of feeling are concerned.["Anima and Animus," CW 7, par. 307. ]

Angelus is Liam's shadow. The boy that would do anything to avoid a hard day's labor as a vampire works pretty hard to prove himself to Darla. He is a bit of an over achiever. You don't get a reputation by being lazy. Still, Angelus is just Liam's shadow and isn't any more whole than any other persona.

That persona is still in pain, as he tells Faith in "Release"
"I know how it feels-forced to be someone you're not. Hurts to the bone. You try to bury the pain, but you can't get the hole deep enough, can you? No matter how much you dig, it's still there. Broken shards stabbing every time you breathe, cutting you up inside. You know, there's only one way to make the pain stop. (jumps down from the scaffolding) Hurt someone else."

As Angel tells Cordy in "Billy"
"I never hated my victims, I never killed out of anger, it was always about the - pain and the pleasure."

Angelus is causing pain to relieve his own pain and bring himself pleasure. He is in pain because he is a persona and not the fully individuated creature. A vamp has a demon soul and it relegates things to the shadow every bit as much as a human soul, just different things. In "The Prodigal" we can see this process as Darla tells Angel that he will never beat his father.

Souled, Angel has to reorder is psyche, making Angelus his shadow once again. He disavows Angelus more and more and pushes him deeper and deeper into the shadow. This sets up the libido that will push for reintegration. It is like stretching a rubber band. The more you stretch it, the more energy wants to pull it back together.

The Angelus we see Season 4 is a bit different from Angelus of previous years. He is the classic under achiever now, since Champion Angel is the over achiever.

Angel is going to have to find a balance between under and over achiever. The more he is either, the more the pull will be to find this balance.

[> [> [> Joss Whedon said this about Angel........ -- Rufus, 19:07:36 11/11/03 Tue

From a Dreamwatch interview "Taking the Fifth" with Joss Whedon transcribed by Setje who deserves all credit for the transcription.

The whole article is on Angel after Spike there are only mild spoilers that would do little more than fuel existing speculation.

Whereas Buffy's arc was, from the start to finish, obviously about empowerment, Angel's underlying theme has always seemed less clear-cut. Whedon, however, feels that the show was and continues to be based on a particular concept.

"I believe that the overall themes of Angel are redemption and morality," he notes. "When we started the show we had a kind of alcoholic metaphor. Angel was a guy who was recovering from the terrible things he's done, who was trying to atone, and was occasionally tempted to do something terrible again. Angel, to me, has always been structured around the idea of Angel trying to find his place, trying to find a reason to go on helping people. And he's had different variations of that."

Angel has always come back to this one place that he keeps stuggling with and that's retaining the heart to continue helping people. Each year he has had a new stuggle to overcome. It's kinda like once he gets it right without doubting himself he will be the hero he took for granted he was. Angel does the heroic acts but his heart isn't in it because of his losses that he can't be consoled about or recover from because not many people know about them. Number 5 showed us that even heroes can burn out, become discouraged and decide to pack it in...meaning they really are closer to being us than we thought...;)

[> [> [> [> Don't you ask yourself why? -- Lunasea, 08:59:00 11/12/03 Wed

Angel, to me, has always been structured around the idea of Angel trying to find his place, trying to find a reason to go on helping people. And he's had different variations of that.

Don't you ask yourself why? Buffy always had the burden of being Slayer because "she alone." The series is resolved by her no longer being alone. She empowered others and through that freed herself. What about Angel? Why is he always having to find a reason to fight?

The answer is in his heart, his hero's heart. Why is that constantly being obscured? Circumstances? That's a bit of a cop out. After Angel's epiphany, Darla no longer had any hold over him. It isn't circumstances that matter. It is what we believe that does and how strongly we believe in it. Conviction is important and mercy trumps it, but having conviction about mercy, that will save the day.

Why does Angel lack conviction? Not the circumstances, but what in him is lacking.

I love all the psychological yummies this season. Enough of the existential dilemmas. Where does libido come from? It might be something Joss is asking himself now.

[> [> [> Re: Bringing it all home (general non-spoilery observations of S5) -- aliera, 20:37:53 11/11/03 Tue

Here's something that has a few interesting pieces.

I feel that Rufus is right about the search for meaning also, but that is fairly easy to integrate with the other aspects of the show. What keeps me hooked into Joss's work is the way he pulls in the different elements and makes them work, all while creating good television. Quite remarkable.

[> [> [> [> Re: Bringing it all home (general non-spoilery observations of S5) -- Lunasea, 08:05:45 11/12/03 Wed

I've written about the Jungian way of writing that is compared to a bird circling the tree before. That can be found in two threads: Prophecy Girl: The Bird Takes Flight (four parts) and the conclusion Prophecy Girl: Joss' Wider Truth Revealed In those I write about how the pattern that manifests itself reveals the underlying message of the shows. It may be a message that Joss is unaware of himself at first. The best stories are written through us, not by us.

On Buffy, he was writing the story of a girl growing up. On Angel, he is writing the story of a recovering alcoholic. Both these stories are vehicles to even larger stories. That is what makes them mythology and not Dawson's Creek. Just as I took the pattern that BtVS is written with (probably unconsciously at least at first) and showed how the pattern itself revealed Joss' wider truth that he was illustrating with Buffy, I can do the same with Angel.

I can focus on the alcoholic metaphor and as a recovered alcoholic that has a lot of resonance with me. I can focus on the rape metaphor for vampires and again we are with the resonance. The extreme dissociation of Angel/us is another branch that makes up this tree that I can identify with. but they are all just branches. As the series goes on the bird circles more and more and the tree itself starts to be revealed.

I think that is why the new format is working out so well. Instead of taking several episodes to circle the tree, they are doing it more compactly within each episode. When we stack all these on top of each other, we get not just branches, but a tree, a tree that makes sense, a tree where each circle is a variation on the theme.

That is just how I see it.

Name That Episode!!! -- Rob, 13:11:53 11/10/03 Mon

Now that I've lured you into this post with the title that makes it sound like a fun little game to liven up the "waiting-for-the-next-Angel-ep-to-air" rest of the week, I have a confession to make...This is actually a thinly veiled request for help with the large "Buffy" project I've told you about for my media class. That doesn't mean, though, that this won't be fun for you. I hope it will be!

In assembling the information for my project, which is two-parts--a paper and a multimedia presentation in Powerpoint--I need some specific examples from the show to illustrate my points. There are a few cases, though, where I'm having trouble pinpointing the right scene to use, or which episode the right scene took place in, so I would really appreciate your help in finding them.

1) Part of my paper focuses on Glory as an "ultra-consumer." I need a scene where Glory either sends her "hobbits" shopping for her or where she has just shopped herself. Or at least a scene of Glory revelling in her own hotness (looks and outfit) and also saying something about finding the key, to show a comedic correlation between shallow consumerism and evil. I know there are tons of such scenes in the fifth season, but I'm having trouble remembering which episodes they were in.

2) I need a great scene to display the humorous dichotomy between Richard Wilkins' down home, folksy sayings and the fact that he is evil.

3) I need some classic "Anya loves capitalism" moments, such as the dance of capitalism, her definition of capitalism, and her playing "Oooh! The game of life!" but I'm having trouble remembering which episodes they came from. Other examples would be great, too.

4) I'm sure someone has a list of these somewhere, but I couldn't find them. I'd like to take a look at all of the Fanged Four flashbacks (not all of them have to necessarily be in every example), and while I know many of the episodes that have them, I don't want to miss any. Does anyone know every "Buffy" or "Angel" episode that contained a flashback to the "old days" with Angel, Darla, Spike, or Dru, or any combo of them?



[> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- Seven, 13:45:44 11/10/03 Mon

For mayor Wilkons, I'd go with his speech to buffy and Angel (and everyone else) in Choices or his "Ha Ha! you will all bow to me" speech towards the begining of graduation day part one.

Have no idea the eps for you with Glory-----sorry, but

the best Fanged four eps are Fool for Love (Buffy) Darla (Angel), and five by five (Angel) ---- In my opinion.

the great Anya capitalism lines are in (crap) uhm, at least that Halloween episode of season 6 Buffy. Money dance is at least there. But her speech would be sometime before that, but i think definately in that season.

[> [> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- Retread, 13:53:58 11/10/03 Mon

There is some good Anya as capitalist stuff in Checkpoint, in the lead up to the interviews by the CoW, I think.

[> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- Foxtraveller, 14:10:36 11/10/03 Mon

Hi Rob,

I've been spending way too much time lurking here for the past few months, wondering at the sheer brilliance, and outright sillyness you all seem able to display, often in the same post. So I would just like to say thank you for giving me so much entertainment and food for thought, and making me feel slightly less guilty about my little Buffy obsession.

Anyway, on to the helpfull bit...hopefully.

1)I seem to remember a Glory scene in Family that might be what you're looking for, but it is a long time since I saw it.

2) The Mayor, what a guy. How about the scene in Doppelgangland where he tells Faith he's a family man and then says,"now, let's talk about killing your little friend." Any Mayor and Faith scene in fact. Or the one in Graduation Day where he tells his gang of vampires to watch the swearing in front of the ,soon to be dinner, students.

3)"Ooo, The Game Of Life", was in The Real Me. Another wonderful Anya capitalist moment can be found in Tough Love. I'm not sure about the dance of capitalist superiority, it might have been in All The Way.

4)Fanged Four flash backs. Becomming. Dear Boy. FFL. Darla. Five By Five.The Prodigal.Amends. LMPTM. There are more but I'll leave them to someone with a better memory.

Good luck with your project.


[> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- Ames, 14:38:19 11/10/03 Mon

If it's a big project, I recommend you get busy with the full set of episode transcripts from

For example, regarding the Mayor, how about this from Graduation Day Part 1:

In the Mayor's office. One of the Gavrok bugs is pinned, unmoving, to his desk with a knife. The camera pans up to show two of the legs sticking out of the Mayor's mouth. He chews and swallows. A vampire looks on uncertainly.
Mayor: "Mmm. My god, what a feeling. The power of these creatures. It suffuses my being. I can feel the changes begin. My organs are shifting, changing, making ready for the Ascension. ... Plus these babies are high in fiber. And what's the fun in becoming an immortal demon if you're not regular, am I right?"
-- transcript

[> You're in luck -- Lunasea, 15:10:22 11/10/03 Mon

I'm bored and my headache is gone, so I'll do your homework for you ;-)

1. Glory. According to this year's Buffy Yearbook, she appears in:
No Place Like Home
Blood Ties
I Was Made to Love You
Tough Love
The Weight of the World
The Gift

Pertinent scenes/dialogue would be:

No Place Like Home: Primarily Glory bitching about the mortal coil and that she could crap a better existence than this. When Glory breaks her heel and gets upset may work for what you want.

It does have some good Anya stuff, since this is where Giles hires her and it is opening day for the Magic Box. The rest of the Scoobies are beat and she is thrilled. "You're out of crystal balls. Those babies are really popular with the amateurs. Better re-stock and raise the price 10%. Make it 15." "Your cash register looks like squirrels nest in it." Plus one of my favorite Anya/Xander exchanges.

ANYA:(to woman)Please go.

The woman walks away, shaking her head.

XANDER:Anya, the Shopkeeper's Union of America called. They wanted me to tell you that "please go" just got replaced with "have a nice day".

ANYA: But I have their money. Who cares what kind of day they have?

XANDER: No one. It's just a long cultural tradition of raging insincerity. Embrace it.

Family: We get the first shot of Glory's consumerism when we see her massive closet.

She tells the demon "Pay attention! I am great and I am beautiful, and when I walk into a room all eyes turn to me, because my name is a holy name, and you will listen!"

Shadow: The Teaser gives us our first interaction with Dreg. In it she asks him, "Does this pump make my ankle look bony?" He is very miniony.

Checkpoint: We get another minion, Jinx. She straightens herself up after she "feeds" (for lack of a better word) and looks in the mirror to wipe lipstick off her teeth.

GLORY: Well, it's the only thing keeping you alive right now. Because you may be tiny queen in vampire world...

Dawn enters behind Glory. Buffy looks at Dawn in alarm, tries not to let Glory see her looking.

GLORY: ...but to me, you're a bug. You should get down on your knees and worship me! But oh, no, you still think it's neat having Slayer strength. (Dawn mouths "What?" at Buffy) Ooh, big deal! Stronger than humans! (Dawn begins to back away) Who isn't? I could crush the life from you as easy as you'd break a nail. But I need the key.

Blood Ties: BUFFY: (softly) Glory is evil. And powerful. (normal tone) And in no way prettier than me.

Jinx is very miniony to Ben. "Your fate is directly linked to her magnificently-scented Glorificus. She's been extremely forgiving of your considerable foibles up until now, but if you persist in your defiance, she'll be forced to-"

When Glory appears from Ben we hear "Ugh. Cotton. Could a fabric be more annoyingly pedestrian? (reaches into a locker) Now *this* is what I'm talkin' about. (Pulls out a red silk blouse and slides it over her head, smiling) Makes your skin sing."

Her description of the key is " Well... (walks a few steps away, gets nostalgic) the last time I caught a peep ... it was a bright green swirly shimmer. Really brought out the blue in my eyes."

In their fighting, Glory takes time to admire Buffy's shoes: GLORY: "Hey, those are really nice shoes." In that fight, they throw powder on her GLORY: (angry) "Look what you did to my dress, you little-"

I Was Made To Love You: More of a Ben episode. Little Glory in it

Forever: Concerned about blood on the rug, but that is about it.

Intervention: Minions are ministering to her, being all miniony as usual.

I LOVE her reaction to Spike. GLORY: What the hell is that, and why is his hair that color?

Tough Love: Glory taking a bubble bath and drinking mimosas. Ahhh. The good life. GLORY: (happy sigh) We got this part right, that's for sure. Lot of sucky things in this dimension -- bubble baths? Not one of 'em. (blows some bubbles) Know what I mean?

Spiral: Nothing much. I don't know if you want to do a montage of all of Glory's fabulous outfits or something like that. Clothing her had to be expensive.

The Weight of the World: Glory being tailored in her ritual gown.

GLORY: Not that fake suburban nightmare the monks cooked up for you. I mean your real home. (Dawn begins to cry) As the key! You fit the lock. Well, it's like a lock. Hey! (pats Dawn's knee) You want a pizza?
DAWN: (softly) No.
GLORY: Pillow? (looks around) I don't know if this thing gets cable. Doubtful.

She starts to feel Ben in this episode. Interesting how she changes as the wall becomes less solid between them.

GLORY: Funny. 'Cause I look around at this world you're so eager to be a part of ... and all I see is six billion lunatics looking for the fastest ride out. (smiles) Who's not crazy? Look around. Everyone's drinking, smoking, shooting up ... shooting each other, or just plain screwing their brains out 'cause they don't want 'em anymore. (looks at Dawn) *I'm* crazy? Honey, I'm the original one-eyed chicklet in the kingdom of the blind. (sighs) 'Cause at least I admit the world makes me nuts.

The Gift: mostly just fighting

Lessons: her line is about how fabulous she is.

Now I'm going to take a shower. Hope that helps. I'll do more later.

[> [> Thing about 'Tough Love' -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:59:27 11/10/03 Mon

Later in the episode, during her fight with Willow, she shouts, "You think I care about any of this? The house? The clothes?" Which kinda refutes the whole point.

Oh, and something else from "Weight of the World":

Minion: "The great Glorificus, having acquired much in this life, does not exactly travel light."

[> [> [> Re: Thing about 'Tough Love' -- angel's nibblet, 15:43:55 11/11/03 Tue

I think the 'house and the clothes' were just for comfort, she was so obsessed with finding the key and getting back to her own dimension that in comparison she didn't really 'care' about anything else

[> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- LittleBit, 16:14:18 11/10/03 Mon


Cut to: a beautiful, well-appointed apartment. Glory reclines on a round bed surrounded by shoeboxes. A demon dressed in monk's clothing is kneeling on the floor, holding a scroll.
Dreg: Most beauteous and supremely magnificent one, this dark spell I hold in my worthless and scabby hand is our gift to you, most tingly and wonderful Glorificus...
Glory: (trying on a shoe) Please, call me Glory. And get up, looking at you is hurting my neck.
Dreg: (gets up) Forgive me, shiny special one. I beg of you to rip out my inadequate tongue.
Glory: (reaches out her hand) Gimme.
Dreg grins and walks forward, sticking out his tongue. Glory waits till he's close enough and then grabs the scroll.
Dreg: Oh. (laughs nervously) I thought... (still laughing as Glory examines the paper) You should know, your elaborate marvelousness, that this dark incantation has been lost for eons...
Glory: Uh-huh. (trying on another shoe)
Dreg: And great dangers have been faced to...
Glory: (sticking her leg straight up in the air) Does this pump make my ankle look bony?
Dreg: No! No, no, your terrifically smooth one, it is the epitome of ankles. (Glory ignores him, trying on another shoe) To touch such an ankle would be - but I'm not touching. I'm backing away.
Glory kicks out her foot and the shoe flies off it, hitting Dreg in the forehead.
Dreg: Ow! Thank you.
Glory: Dreg, is it? (Gets up)
Dreg: Yes. Dreg. Your creamy coolness has honored me by speaking my name. Your voice is like a thousand sweet songbirds that-
Glory: (irritated) Yeah, I never tire of hearing that. Look, just so we're clear, the spell's gonna work, right? (Dreg nods anxiously. Glory turns and goes to the window, peeking around the curtain) I mean, nothing worse than a gift that doesn't work. Then I'd have to get all mad and kill you! (apologetically) It's this whole big thing.

Giles: If Tara's right, then we're blind. There's ... there's no way we can determine ... her moves, her habits, where she'll turn up next-
He turns around, putting his glasses back on, and is confronted by Glory. She has a few items in her hands.
Giles: Oh! I beg your-
Glory: (abruptly) Uh-huh. (holds up items) I want these.
Giles: Yes, of course! (hurries behind the counter, taking the items) Um, you find everything all right?
Glory: No problemo. (takes out her purse as Giles scribbles on a receipt)
Giles: That's, um...
Shot of Xander, Tara, and Willow sitting at the table, ignoring Giles and his "customer." Cash register noises. They continue looking at the books.
Giles: Your receipt. (Hands receipt to an impatient Glory) And ... (puts items in a paper bag) Thank you! (hands bag to Glory. She smiles and leaves. Giles watches her, smiling.)
Giles: (turns back to the others, removes glasses again) She could be anywhere. But if she is as powerful as, uh, Buffy says, I imagine it won't be long before she makes herself known.

Cut to inside the apartment. Dreg is cowering as Glory throws shoeboxes at him.
Dreg: Perturbed, yet ultimately merciful-
Glory sweeps a pile of shoeboxes off the sofa in annoyance.
Dreg: Please, don't-
Glory: What is taking so long, Dreg? You told me snakey-wakey would find my key. Now why isn't he back here with a beautiful message for me?
Dreg: I grovel like a bug, most silky and effervescent Glorificus- (She throws more shoeboxes at him) Glory! Glory. Your most fresh and cleanness, it's just a matter of time.
Glory: (angrily) Ohh! Everything takes time! What about my time? Does anyone appreciate that I'm on a schedule here? (Dreg nods nervously) Tick, tock, Dreg! Tick frickin' tock!

Glory: (jumps up) It is not Bob Barker, scabby morons! The key is new to this world ... (turns back to face Spike) and Bob Barker is as old as grit. (smiles) The vampire ... is lying to me.
Spike: (giggles weakly) Yeah ... but it was fun. And guess what, bitch. (Shot of his hands still trying to twist free) I'm not telling you jack. You're never gonna get your sodding key, 'cause you might be strong, but in our world, you're an idiot.
Glory: I am a god.
Spike: The god of what, bad home perms?
Glory: Shut up! (takes a few steps toward him, pats her hair) I command you, shut up!
Spike: Yeah, okay, sorry, but I just had no idea that gods were such prancing lightweights. (Glory scoffs in disbelief) Mark my words, the Slayer ... is going to kick your skanky, lopsided ass (Glory checks out her ass in dismay) back to whatever place would take a (sizing her up) cheap, whorish, fashion victim ex-god like you.

Weight of the World
Episode opens on a minion in Glory's bathroom, gathering up bottles of cosmetics. He hurries into another room where we see other minions gathering up stuff and packing. Murk walks among them.
Murk: Quickly, quickly! Already we're behind schedule! Someone's bound for a beheading.
Murk goes into a large walk-in closet where Gronx is taking stuff from the shelves and putting it in boxes.
Murk: Let's make sure it's not me.
Gronx: Why do we remain when our moment of triumph lies so close at hand?
Murk: (quietly) The glorious one, having acquired much in this world, doesn't exactly travel light.
They peek around a corner and we see the main room of Glory's apartment. Glory stands on top of a stool wearing an ornate gown, with tailor minions at her feet working on the gown.
Glory: Hey! Minions, I can hear you. God-like ears don't miss much, you know what I'm sayin'? (glares at them)

Mayor Wilkins

Band Candy
Cut to the sewers. The camera pans from a round storm drain tunnel into a large chamber lit by firelight from torches and candles. Mayor Wilkins is standing in the back to observe the ritual. He takes out his cell phone and dials his secretary. Trick is nearby watching the four vampires who stole the children as they chant in Latin. They are dressed in red robes, standing on the wide concrete rim of a small pool. One of them steps down with a shallow bowl of water taken from the pool and begins to anoint each of the babies with it. All but one of the babies are quiet.
Trick: (to himself about Lurconis) Come on, big guy. They're not getting any fresher.
The camera pans across the four babies. The Mayor's secretary finally answers her phone.
Mayor Wilkins: Carol. Hi. Yeah. (looks around the sewer) Call Dave on the public works committee tomorrow about sewer maintenance and repair. I have some concerns regarding exposed gas pipes, infrastructure, ventilation. And, uh... cancel my 3:00.

Bad Girls
Cut to a room at City Hall. Mayor Wilkins is kneeling in an inverted pentagram with his hands out to his sides. Five candles are burning at each point. He recites a spell.
Mayor Wilkins: Potestatem matris nostrae in tenebris invoco. Maledictum filium tuum abomni periculo custodias nunc et in saecula!
Translation: Our mother of darkness, I summon thee. Curse now your dangerous accursed son and protect him into the new age!
The building begins to shake. The Mayor remains still with his eyes closed and moves with the quake. Mr. Trick looks around nervously, as does Vincent who is locked in a cage. Soon it's over, and the Mayor opens his eyes and checks his watch.
Mayor Wilkins: I don't understand why Allan would miss this. He's usually so punctual. (stands up)
Trick: (wide-eyed) Did it work?
Mayor Wilkins: Let's find out. Open the gate.
Trick: You sure?
Mayor Wilkins: Oh! Hold on.
He trots over to Trick, takes Vincent's sword from him, sets it tip-down on the floor and lets it fall through the cage bars into Vincent's hands. The Mayor takes several steps back
Mayor Wilkins: Okay. Now we're ready.
Trick steps around to the front of the cage, unlocks the padlock and removes the chains. The Mayor watches and waits calmly. Trick pulls open the door, and Vincent rushes out, heading straight for the Mayor. He raises his sword high and brings it down hard on the Mayor's head, slicing it in two. Amazingly, he does not bleed. The flesh inside just shimmers as Vincent pulls back his sword. The two halves of the Mayor's head pull toward each other and seal themselves together. He stands before Vincent as though he was completely untouched. Vincent can't believe his eyes and backs away. Mr. Trick waits behind him and stakes him through the back. He explodes into ashes.
Mayor Wilkins: Well!
He reaches into his jacket, pulls out his daily planner and opens it to today's list. Some of the things included are:
Greet Scouts
Lumber Union Reschedule
Call Temp Agency
Become Invincible
Meeting With PTA
He puts a check mark next to "Become Invincible" and puts the planner away. Trick comes up to him.
Mayor Wilkins: This officially commences the Hundred Days. Nothing can harm me until the Ascension. (smiles wide and laughs) Gosh, I'm feeling chipper! (keeps laughing) Who's for a root beer?!
He turns around and leaves the room. Trick can't help but smile and follow him.

Daylight. In Faith's new apartment.
Mayor: Well, you win some, you lose some. From where I'm sitting, it's batting average that counts. So you lost some friends.
Faith: I wouldn't exactly call them friends.
Mayor: Well, what are you worried about? Chin up! You don't see me looking disappointed. Heck, no. You know why? Because I know you'll always have me, Faith. I'm the best, the most important friend you'll ever have. Besides, you know, once the Ascenscion starts, the 'in' crowd you're so concerned about? Whoo! They'll be lucky if there's enough left of them to fill a pothole. Promise. Still unhappy? Okey doke. I've got two words that are going to make all the pain go away. Miniature golf. (grins)
Faith shakes her head and breaks into a big smile.

Graduation, Part 2
Cut to the Mayor pointing at a map: "You come up through the sewers here. The important thing is containment. I'll need to feed. It's crucial in the first few minutes to sustain the change. What does that mean? (shakes his finger at them) No snacking. I see blood on your lips, it's a visit to the wood shed for you boys. Kill. Don't feed."

Cut to the Mayor Wilkins: "Remember: fast and brutal. It's going to be a whole new world come nightfall, don't want to weaken now. (the vampires start leaving his office) And boys? - Let's watch the swearing."


The Real Me
Anya: Oh, crap. (slaps down her cards) Look at this! Now I'm burdened with a husband and several tiny pink children, more cash than I can reasonably manage...
Xander: That means you're winning.
Anya: Really?
Xander: Yes. Cash equals good.
Anya: Ooh! (claps her hands in excitement) I'm so pleased. (Scoops up the plastic markers that represent children) Can I trade in the children for more cash? Anya: Oh, crap. (slaps down her cards) Look at this! Now I'm burdened with a husband and several tiny pink children, more cash than I can reasonably manage...
Xander: That means you're winning.
Anya: Really?
Xander: Yes. Cash equals good.
Anya: Ooh! (claps her hands in excitement) I'm so pleased. (Scoops up the plastic markers that represent children) Can I trade in the children for more cash?
Dawn gives her a disgusted look.

I Was Made To Love You
Cut to: Tara and Anya walking along the UC Sunnydale campus, day.
Tara: Willow's good at all that computer stuff, but me not so much. Do you really understand all that?
Anya: Oh. Well, at first it was confusing. Just the idea of computers was like, "whoa, I'm eleven hundred years old. I had trouble adjusting to the idea of Lutherans."
Tara: I go online sometimes, but ... everyone's spelling is really bad, and it's ... depressing.
Anya: But you have to try online trading, it's great! The secret is avoiding the tech companies everyone was jumping on, and, and going with the smaller firms that supply the basic components.
Tara: Uh-huh.
Anya: Anyway, I took the money from working for Giles, and I tripled it.
Tara: Tripled? Like, first money, then money money money?
Anya: Yes. I'm thinking about buying something very expensive. Maybe an antelope.

All The Way
Xander isn't listening; he's staring at Anya.
Anya and Dawn are behind the counter, doing a little dance.
Dawn: (smiling) You do this every night?
Anya: Every time I close out the cash register. The dance of capitalist superiority.
Anya continues dancing, and Dawn copies her movement. Xander continues watching.

Tough Love
Cut to: interior magic shop, day. Xander and Willow sit at the table, he's reading a comic book and she's reading something else. In the background there's an older couple walking around browsing. The camera pans around to reveal Anya on the other side of the table, standing, watching the customers.
Shot of the customers examining the merchandise.
Shot of Anya watching them, partly hidden behind a display case.
Xander: Honey.
Anya whirls around to face him.
Xander: Old saying. "A watched customer never buys."
Anya: They would if they were patriotic.
Xander and Willow both put down their reading material, look at Anya, then look at each other.
Xander: (to Willow) Okay, I'm goin' in. (to Anya) Patriotic?
Anya: Yes. I've recently come to realize there's more to me than just being human. (proudly) I'm also an American.
Giles appears, holding a cup of tea.
Giles: Yes, I suppose you are, in a manner of speaking. You were born here -- your mortal self.
He walks past her.
Anya: Well, that's right, foreigner. (Giles gives her a look) So I've been reading a lot about the good ol' us of A (she says "us" not "U.S."), embracing the extraordinarily precious ideology that's helped to shape and define it.
Willow: Democracy?
Anya: Capitalism. The free market depends on the profitable exchange of goods for currency. (Xander and Willow exchange an amused look) It's a system of symbiotic beauty apparently lost on these old people. (turns to look back at the customers) Look at 'em. Perusing the shelves. Undressing the merchandise with their eyeballs (turns back to the others) all ogle, no cash. It's not just annoying, it's unAmerican.
Giles comes over to her and peers past her at the customers.
Giles: Appalling. Almost as if they no longer think money can buy happiness.
He walks off.
Anya: Totally unAmerican. Oh, and you know what else is unAmerican? French people.
Willow: You don't say.
Anya: From what I hear, they don't tip. Now, French old people? That's *really* the bottom of the barrel, you know?
Xander: Ahn, how's about we try being a bit less prejudiced, and a bit more inclusive? Not us, (indicates himself and Willow, then points to Anya) just you.
Anya: Fine. I'm gonna make those fogeys buy things.

Fanged Four

Becoming, part 1

Darla turning Liam
Angelus and Drusilla - confession
Angelus cursed with the soul

Angelus only

Fool For Love
Drusilla turning William
Spike, Dru, Angelus and Darla in Yorkshire
Spike killing the Chinese Slayer
Spike killing Nikki

Lies My Parents Told Me
Spike meeting Nikki the first time
Spike and Drusilla, Spike turning Ann
Spike seeing vampAnn and killing her

The Prodigal
Angelus' rising

Darla giving Angelus the Gypsy girl
Darla learning about Angelus' soul
souled Angel feeding

Dear Boy
Darla and Angelus first see Drusilla
Darla and Angelus turning Drusilla

Darla and the Master
Angelus and the Master
Darla, Angelus and Drusilla meeting William
Darla trying to remove Angel's soul
Darla and Angel in China
Darla, Angel, Spike, Dru - money shot scene
Darla, Angel, baby in China

Darla, Angel (with James, Elizabeth)
Holtz, Angelus

Holtz, Angelus
Holtz, Angelus, Darla

Angelus, Darla and Holtz's family

multiple flashbacks of Angel souled

There's more. Let me know if this does it for you.

[> [> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- angel's nibblet, 16:29:12 11/10/03 Mon

hehe, i absolutely love that scene where Glory comes to Magic Box and they don't know who she is! The first time I saw it it literally made me jump out of my seat, and then pantomime-type pointing and yelling ensued "It's her! It's her! Noooo Giles you big oaf don't sell her that!!!" Classic Buffy moment if you ask me...

[> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- undeadenglishpatient, 18:01:46 11/10/03 Mon

Here's a Buffy/Angel timeline website that gives the history of the 4:

[> [> more specific -- undeadenglishpatient, 18:06:30 11/10/03 Mon

It has all the historical stuff (with episode number mentions) of Angel, Dru, Spike, and Darla.

[> Re: Name That Episode!!! -- Rook, 01:28:59 11/11/03 Tue

Well, I didn't read the rest of the answers, so these may have been mentioned...

1) Shadow: The scene where Glory shops in the Magic Box. Shopping specifically in order to find the key sounds like it fits.

2) This Year's Girl: The videotape he left for Faith...especially the "Hi kids" line is great.

3)Tough love "French people" speech

4) Don't have this.

I wear the mask, the mask does not wear me (spoilers 5.06) -- Lunasea, 13:20:10 11/10/03 Mon

"I wear the mask, it does not wear me." This sentiment from "The Man in the Iron Mask" shows why Shanshu is so important to Angel's well being. Whistler approaches Angel because "I wanna know who *you* are...because you could go either way can become even a more useless rodent than you already are or you can become someone. A person. Someone to be counted." (Becoming) Angel decides "I wanna help her...I wanna become someone." In this moment, Angel decides to become a "doer," a "helper," a "champion."

When Angelus comes back season 4 of AtS, he doesn't do much of anything. He doesn't even take Faith on until the Beast has "tenderized" her. In Angel the Champion's shadow is still Slacker Liam, the boy that would do anything to get out of an honest day's work. That was one of the defining characteristics of Angelus when we last saw him. He doesn't even go after the gang. He just wants to hang out at the demon bar. In Angel's shadow isn't just necessarily someone that wants to do evil, so much as someone that doesn't want to do anything. This play of slacker v doer/champion is important in understanding Angel. Angel is neither and both. He is not a pure doer and he is not a pure slacker. Who *you* are is a melding of the two and anything short of this is a mask.

This is a mask that turns from velvet to iron in "Amends. " Angel is worried that he is not strong enough to keep the monster in check. Slacker Liam has never been anything but weak. Slacker Liam just wants to take comfort in Buffy even if it will cost him his soul. This doesn't matter to Buffy. Everybody is weak. Everybody fails. "Angel, you have the power to do real good, to make amends." Buffy and a freak snowstorm show Angel that he is "a thing worth saving." If he is a thing worth saving, he must be someone. He must be a doer, so he does and does and does and does.

Bring him over to his own series away from Buffy and he is still doing. He doesn't just fight evil that stumbles across his path. He goes out looking for it. "I still save them. Who cares if I don't stop to chat." Angel's problem is something Whistler told him, "The more you live in this world, the more you see how apart from it you really are." (Becoming) Angel has become "a faceless champion of the hapless human race." (City of) Angel has one thing going against him that Buffy doesn't. Angel is a demon and that demon sees humans as food. Even the mask he has adopted won't fix that.

In "Consequences," Angel is trying to reach Faith. To do this, he attempts to show her that people, other people are worth it. "Time was, I thought humans existed just to hurt each other. But then I came here. And I found out that there are other types of people. People who genuinely wanted to do right. And they make mistakes. And they fall down. You know, but they keep caring. Keep trying. If you can trust us, Faith, this can all change. You don't have to disappear into the darkness." There are exceptions to the rule that people just exist to hurt each other. These people reaffirm Angel's faith in the human race. Seeing people as people and not just happy meals on legs or cruel helps keep Angel's blood lust in check.

The mask that Angel wears as a doer is decorated by what kind of doer he is. He "helps the helpless/hopeless." As he tells Buffy, "This was about someone's soul. That's what I do here." (Sanctuary) He saves "the weak ones lost in the night." (In the Dark). This season, he didn't save Nina from the werewolf, but he's working on helping her deal with it. He knows the drill.

Angel connects with many of his helpless. He is able to project his own issues onto them and through that helps himself, saves his own soul. He shows them that "there's love and hope still left in the world." (City of) Sort of any way. He doesn't really show Gwen much of anything and her arc resolves by her stealing a device that turns her normal rather than dealing with being a freak. Cordelia's rejection of him keeps him from being able to connect with her and even see that she needs his help. Connor's rejection of him also keeps him from being able to connect and help him.

In "TCToNC" Angel tells Gunn that he is feeling disconnected. Gunn thinks it is because he isn't "mixing it up...getting his hands dirty." Spike gripes that real disconnection comes from his incorporeal status. Wesley is the one that realizes that "nothing matters more" than having hope. "It is about saving souls. Hey, possibly your own in the process." (City Of) With the prophecy and the hope of becoming human, Angel is connected back to the "cycle" of life, back to the human race. He can identify with the human condition.

Angelus in "Orpheus" show us why Angel no longer has hope. "It'll all be worth it. Is that what you tell yourself, Faithy? Is the nasty lie that kept those thighs nice and warm in your prison bunk?" Angelus speaks what Angel believes deep down inside. It'll all be worth it is a nasty lie. Angel brings down Jasmine "for the boy." (Peace Out) Was it worth it? "He's just...given up."(Home) Is that worth it? The human condition is "they suffer, they die. That's what they're there for." (Orpheus) Even heroes can't escape this. "All I wanna do is help," (Epiphany) but "You think any of it matters?" (Hellbound)

Connor believes that he knows what matters to Angel. "You know...what this was all about? Protecting our baby-Jasmine-so she, and make this world the... the kind of place you wanted. And it is better. Not harsh and cruel-the way that Angel likes it so he has a reason to fight. 'Cause you know that's what he's about, him and the others. Finding reasons to fight. Like that's what gives their lives any meaning. The only damn thing!" (Peace Out) Then he tests Angel in "Home" seeing who Angel is going to save.

In that test, Angel shows what gives his life meaning. He doesn't accept the Senior Partners' offer to be a better champion. He only accepts it to save his son. Angel is willing to even give up that son for Connor's happiness. When Darla was pregnant, Angel got to put on a new mask, that of Father. That mask is so important to him that he is willing to smash the one of his friendship with Wesley because of it. When Cordy sleeps with Connor, he smashes his friendship with her as well. Angel has two identities, champion and father.

Just like Numero Cinco. He is a champion and a brother. When he loses his brothers, he tries to carry on, but the phone stops ringing. When Holland approaches him to work for Wolfram and Hart, he accepts because he doesn't care any more. He has lost his brothers and nothing else matters to him. He still wears his mask because "it reminds me that only a fool would want to be a champion." He doesn't wear the mask, though. It wears him.

There is no Numero Cinco. He is nothing. He believes in nothing. His brothers don't come to visit "because I am not worthy." What matters to him is the past, not the present. "Is it too much to remember their past?" Angel gives a stirring speech about how it is the lives they save that matters and how they do what they do because they can. The reward is "the work itself." Angel doesn't believe it though.

The Aztec demon is confused about Angel. He doesn't know whether to kill him or not. He does attack him, so Angel is giving off some sort of hero vibe. When Angel is shiskabobbed to the Chevy, he doesn't fight back, much like Buffy in FFL. He has given up. The demon sees this and doesn't take Angel's heart.

The demon keeps returning every 50 years. There is no way to stop that. Evil continues. Gunn remarks at the beginning about all the good they are doing, "more good here in a month than Angel Investigations did in a year." Angel knows that it is but a drop in the bucket. As Holland says, "We go on no matter what." (Reprise) As a champion, what difference is he really making? Saving souls, rather than lives, meant something to him because it connected him to people. It wasn't a faceless champion saving the hapless human race. Even if he couldn't stop evil, he could save Bethany and Darla and Kate and many others. He couldn't save Connor and Cordy. He wasn't allowed to help Buffy and now Spike is a non-corporeal pain-in-the-ass. Why bother? Why fight? Connor thinks that finding a reason to fight is a bad thing, but it is the same as asking why live. Life itself is the ultimate struggle.

Which is why Shanshu is so important. What is the cautionary tale that is told by Numero Cinco? It's about hope, but more importantly it is about why hope is lost. Angel doesn't see himself as a father any more. He hates the word champion. So who is he? Is he someone? Is he a thing worth saving?

Being a father, being a champion, these are but masks that Angel wears. Even being a friend. At his core, Angel is a person, a thing worth saving. He is constantly trying to be a doer to be what he considers worth saving, but does he ask his helpless if they are doers? To him, everyone is worth saving. He saves Faith. He is willing to give his life for Darla's. He eventually extends his hand to Lindsey. He even tries to help Jasmine, "but maybe you can still help us make it better, even if you have lost your powers." Angel has to find himself to be one of those people or he is completely disconnected not only from those he saves, but from himself.

Angel isn't the masks he wears. He is Angel. The more the masks wear him, the more disconnected he will feel because the more disconnected he is, from the most important thing there is, himself. By believing in the prophecy, by having hope that he will be saved, that he is worth saving, he connects to the totality of his existence. He isn't just a father or a champion. He is Angel. He is reconnected to his mortality. He is human again. Or at least he will be. The work doesn't have meaning for Champion mask Angel, but for Angel Angel.

That is the Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco. If we only wear a few masks, we are likely to becomes those masks. They will wear us, not the other way around. Angel must reconnect to the Angel that is under all those masks. Wesley was worried about Angel in "To Shanshu in LA" because "It's our desires that make us human." He isn't connected to life. Angel Angel wants to be human. The smile at the end of "To Shanshu in LA" spoke as loudly as Buffy's at the end of "Chosen."

It isn't about working for a reward. It is about not letting the mask wear us. It is about being more than the masks we wear. It is about being human.

That's how see things.


[> Nicely done -- Nino, 14:53:27 11/10/03 Mon

[> [> Thanks and check out -- Lunasea, 07:03:54 11/11/03 Tue

What I wrote below in Tch's Odyssey, especially "Bringing it all home." I meant to include that in this post, but I got wrapped up in the importance of Shanshu symbolizing the wholeness of Angel as opposed to the mask of Champion, that I forgot to go into how the mask does show what Angel is.

Angel developed this particular mask as opposed to another one. That does speak to who he is. He isn't love's bitch, like Spike (Spike's main mask) Angel saw Buffy and put on this particular mask. His heart was moved. That heart, that hero's heart, is who he is. He had to dissociate that from all his self-doubt in order to act on it.

Not sure how many philosophical yummies are going to be present this season, but psychological yummies are a plenty. Angel has dissociated about as far as he can. The masks that were once adaptive and moved him to action are now maladaptive and causing neurosis. Each episode seems to follow the pattern Jung gave for the self-regulation of the Psyche:

1. Difficulty of adaptation. Little progression of libido.

2. Regression of energy (depression, lack of disposable energy).

3. Activation of unconscious contents (fantasies, complexes, archetypal images, inferior function, opposite attitude, shadow, anima/animus, etc.). Compensation.

4. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.).

5. Unconscious or half-conscious conflict between ego and contents activated in the unconscious. Inner tension. Defensive reactions.

6. Activation of the transcendent function, involving the self and archetypal patterns of wholeness.

7. Formation of symbols (numinosity, synchronicity).

8. Transfer of energy between unconscious contents and consciousness. Enlargement of the ego, progression of energy.

9. Assimilation of unconscious contents. Individuation.

We seem to be taking small bites out of Angel's dissociation each episode, all leading up to some major crisis.

Just how I see things.

[> that was a pleasure to read -- rsfayez, 16:56:02 11/11/03 Tue

Angel/Buffy Contact -- aperitis, 19:19:32 11/10/03 Mon any of you think that buffy and angel keep in touch at all? i know we've seen special instances of phone calls and such but do u think they talk on the phone to shoot the breeze once a week or once every two weeks, whatever...i mean, do u think she knows about spike and CONNOR for god sakes. i mean, faith could have passed along the news but buffy didnt seem the least bit curious how her ex became a daddy at the ripe old age of 240 and some change. bottom line, who thinks they keep in touch about stuff going on in eachother's lives (ie. new slayer laws, dead "power-that-was"? i know they are stand-alone shows but they are in the same universe and they are only about two hours away by car.


[> Re: Angel/Buffy Contact -- skpe, 21:43:19 11/10/03 Mon

I got the impression that there is too much emotional baggage between them and that there is no casual contact

[> Good question...Did Buffy ever know about Connor? -- Nino, 22:22:37 11/10/03 Mon

[> [> Forgot the text:...cuz Angel knew about Dawn -- Nino, 22:30:36 11/10/03 Mon

[> [> [> Re: Forgot the text: cuz Angel knew about Dawn -- Nino, 22:31:46 11/10/03 Mon

[> [> dont you guys think -- aperitis, 13:33:09 11/11/03 Tue

that angel should at least keep buffy abreast of what happened to spike seeing as how he did play a major role in saving the world with her. also i think it is angels duty as the head of the most evil organization in the world and keeper of almost every demonic text, prophecy, etc. to lend a hand to buffy in some way (ie weapons, omens, even helping to locate some newly awakened slayers). what do u guys think?

[> [> [> Re: dont you guys think -- Dlgood, 15:15:22 11/11/03 Tue

In theory, it would make a tremendous amount of sense for the "Sunnydale" and LA groups to keep in contact with each other to share vital information.

In S1-2 of Angel, there were enough phone calls between Willow and Cordy that one could reasonably interpolate that the groups had been in contact. In AtS 3-4, IMHO, it was much harder to tell.

[> [> [> Re: dont you guys think -- tam, 22:11:02 11/11/03 Tue

there are an awful lot of similarities between the memory(ies) swipe and the memory(ies) building of connor and dawn?

for connor's story to work, his "new" family has to think he has always been there.

[> Willow Knew -- Claudia, 14:20:01 11/11/03 Tue

In "Orpheus", Willow seemed to know about Connor before she even met him. Which surprised me, since I didn't think that Buffy and Angel were in contact, between their meeting in early BtVS S6/AtS S3 and "End of Days/Chosen".

[> I think Spike knew about Conner -- ladyhelix, 15:15:05 11/11/03 Tue

I'm thinking that Spike knew about Conner... but then I've read so much FanFic that I get my story lines ALL confused!

At any rate - if he did, that would be just ONE MORE THING for Angel to hate him for. Spike didn't get his mind wiped.

[> [> Re: I think Spike knew about Conner -- dlgood, 18:02:15 11/11/03 Tue

I suspect that if Spike knew about Connor, he'd be making one heck of a fuss about it. And how exactly, would Spike have found out about Connor in the first place? Keeping in mind what the existence of Connor would mean for Spike - no way could Spike be keeping quiet about that.

possible spoiler -- aperitis, 17:45:22 11/11/03 Tue

is anyone familiar with the spoiler for an upcoming angel eppy called "damage" in which a teen girl became crazed "a few months ago" and andrew shows up? if u are and know any sites with the info please respond...sounds like a new slayer is in town...i love when they bring in elements of one show to another like slayers; it makes the two shows more cohesive. PLUS, wouldnt AI be even more asskicking if they got a slayer to fight with them?


[> Muchos have been warned! -- Nino, 19:02:02 11/11/03 Tue

Yuppers...that is the case, from what I have read from Kristin and some other places...Andrew apparently has been trained by Giles...and...


....It is interesting that Andrew shows up with Giles training in the episode before Cordy is marked for her return. This gives my Cordy-scenario a chance, cuz all it called for was some Scoobs (should Giles or Xander show up, it would be even better)...

The BIG Spoiler I read from Kristen (that I regret reading even though I speculated that this was the case) is that Spike will in fact become human...she could be wrong...but I've felt that thats what the season has been leading up to so far.

[> [> Re: Muchos have been warned! -- aperitis, 19:37:21 11/11/03 Tue

what was your cordy-scenario...just curious...and what does a scoobie have to be there to do...and do you really think theyd make spike human...personally i dont want either spike or angel to become human...theyre good the way they are...and who wants an aging spike? not me.

[> [> [> Spoilery Speculation -- Nino, 20:33:41 11/11/03 Tue

I posted it earlier this season...

...basically Xander or Giles or Willow or some other Scoob comes to LA on Slayer business (possibly to contact Dana, the Slayer that will show up in ep 11 with Andrew) and that for some reason they would be at odds with the Fang Gang. Something in their agenda would conflict with W&H and cause a ruckus. Cordy wakes up, following a vision of someone we know in danger because of said conflict. Cordy has some heart to hearts...Fred or Wes fills her in on what happened last year. She is wary of the Fang Gang's decision to run W&H

Cordy is distraught that all her efforts to do good were for naught. The visions, becoming a demon, becoming a higher being were all just part of Jasmine's plan...was it all worth it? Was she truly a good person in the good fight, or just being used? Was it worth it to keep trying. She would tell all this to the Scoob (other then Andrew, who didn't know her)would go on to give her an encouraging speech (think Xander to Dawn in "Potential" to Anya in "Selfless" etc) about how she has transformed herself from a snobbish bitch to someone who essetially gave her life to the fight for good, even if she was tricked.

At the end of the episode, whatever issue the Scoobs had is resolved, but not a happy ending. When the Scoobs are about to leave town, Cordy surprises the Fang Gang by saying that she is going with them. She loves them, yadda yadda, but she can't support them in their choice to run W&H. She just wants to be a good person, and she doesn't feel that she can do that at W&H...they say their goodbyes...and Cordy leaves ready for a new start, with some old friends.

That reads really sappy...but ideally it would let Cordy have some humor too, and go out on a great note.

[> [> [> [> Re: Spoilery Speculation -- aperitis, 22:36:48 11/11/03 Tue

just one more thing...what is this "hand" stuff i read about yet dont seem to understand? can someone explain the significance? BTW...this might turn out to be one the greatest eppys...i cant wait.

[> For the possible spoiler? Go to... -- s'kat, 21:36:35 11/11/03 Tue

That's episode 11. Probably won't air until January. It's the beginning of what appears to be a major arc.

For news regarding it? Go to Angel After Spike Board:

and Spoiler Trollop Board (see link at the top) and Angel's Soul Board see : link at Angel After Spike.

Let's try to keep it away from this board. I got accidently
spoiled on that one from a listerve that wasn't careful. (BTW - Nino's spoiler is only "half" correct regarding 11 - Damage. Remember Kristin isn't right about everything.)

[> [> Re: For the possible spoiler? Go to... -- aperitis, 22:37:58 11/11/03 Tue

just one more thing...what is this "hand" stuff i read about yet dont seem to understand? can someone explain the significance? BTW...this might turn out to be one the greatest eppys...i cant wait.

[> [> [> Re: For the possible spoiler? Go to... -- s'kat, 10:30:25 11/12/03 Wed

Can't do it without seriously spoiling you and anyone
else archiving or reading this thread.

Suggest - if you want to know - to see the Trollop
Board or for the summary.

And it could be the best episode or most unwatchable episode
ever. It is from the summary, in my humble opinion the most violent and graphic they've ever done in both series.

[> Re: possible spoiler -- luvthistle1, 14:03:25 11/12/03 Wed

...Well the new slayer is "Damage". she from a mental institution. she seems to have been in the mental hosiptal most of her life ( or rather since she was 10 or 11). she only became powerful an few month ago, probably the results of the spell that Willow and buffy did to make all potential girls into slayer. hmm, I wonder when the first evil told the bringers to kill everyone but "HER", did he mean "Dana". Could the new slayer be a part of the first evil's plan.

Strongbad & Trogdor -- Miyu tVP, 13:03:28 11/12/03 Wed

I'm a little slow sometimes... just realized that Numero Cinco looks alot like Strongbad! and that Strongbad has a vampire clip...

and that Andrew in Chosen gives a shout out to Trogdor the Burninator during the D&D scene (Ok I noticed that before, but you can never have too much Trogdor)



[> Re: Strongbad & Trogdor -- Wombat, 19:56:14 11/12/03 Wed

Of course, the Trevor the vampire e-mail! I had forgotten about that one also.

dawn question -- aperitis, 19:58:12 11/12/03 Wed

i was the last eppy of season 5 buffy said she and dawn had the same blood and that since they had the same blood her death would close the fissure...if they have the same blood then wouldn't dawn also be a potential? or now a slayer? any thoughts?


[> Re: dawn question -- Samus, 20:18:14 11/12/03 Wed

No, I don't think so.

Buffy's mom wasn't a slayer. There is no reason to believe that the "potential" is biological in origin. It is likely something mystical, and may even be random.

Buffy had that certain slayer something. Joyce didn't have it, and neither did Dawn.

[> Dawn is Buffy's clone -- Majin Gojira, 20:59:43 11/12/03 Wed

And like clones in reality (as we are slowly learning) they can be extremely differnt from the source material.

And Apparently, Being a Slayer is not linked to blood, genes, or what our current level of science can assertain.

Dear Drew (spoilers 5.7) -- Ponygirl, 21:56:29 11/12/03 Wed

Hi Drew!

How've you been? I can't believe it's been since LMPTM that I've last seen your name in the "written by" credits (though you certainly did remind us of that ep. didn't you? heh!). Hope you had a great summer.

Anyhoo just saw Lineage and yay! When I heard about this ep. I was excited to see if you could do for Wesley what you did for Anya in Selfless, but I had to admit the "cyborg-ninja-assasins" thing gave me pause. Sorry to doubt, even though they looked like they had coffee cans over their faces, the idea had a certain icky poignancy - these robots were more human than not.

I gotta tell you though Drew, exposition is not your strong suit. The Eve/Angel scene was clunkier than last year's heels, and Wes' scene on the roof felt too long in places. The totally unnecessary flashback to Rodger smuggling in the gun was most likely a director's choice so not blaming you.

Rodger's unexpected mechanical condition felt like a cop-out at first but I thought about it and I agree that it would have been too heavy a plot point to hit this early in the year. I'm intrigued but still wary about this introduction of an outside element of new good/bad guys, I'm leery of you guys setting up oodles of internal conflict then in the end pulling in something tangible to pummel. It's probably just season 7 talking. I'm over it, really. Sort of.

But enough about the bad, I'm writing to send out the love and plenty of it.

First of all a cherry-covered Lorne is on his way to your office as a thank you for the Spike dialogue. It was hysterically funny but even better it involved him interacting with the others. Then there was the scene in the elevator with Eve which had the effect of giving a sudden hard outline to both characters - something that had been sorely lacking for a while. I agree with Eve that there's more to Spike's snarky spirit act than meets the eye. The Pavayne line was funny as hell but it showed just how much fear is beneath the surface. A vampire who's afraid of the dark? Who'd have thought? Still not liking Eve but keeping an open mind.

Actually the Eve/Angel/Wes scene while not high on my rewind list still made me notice how Angel seemed to be speaking Wesley's darker thoughts, while Eve spoke Angel's. Everybody is playing the devil on the shoulder to someone else.

And yes, Wesley. Was it wrong that what I loved best was the return of dead-eyed Wesley, unhesitantly emptying his gun into his father? From the teaser on we'd been seeing Wes trying to slip back into his darker persona, but neo-noirWes can't get the assurance and ruthlessness down. Until that moment. That darkness is still in him to an extent that he most likely was not aware. What's he going to do with the knowledge of what's inside?

I'm not crazy about the use of Fred as Wes' prime motivation, but I do appreciate how his feelings for her have been consistently shown to be unhealthy and unreturned. Fred was right to invoke the parent/child dynamic in Wes' behaviour, icky though that may be.

Interesting that the daddy Wes ended up proving himself to was Angel. Though with all the people in the office who've killed their parents, paternal is a label Angel would be wise to avoid. In fact after this episode Wes may find prophecies about a father killing a son a refreshing change of pace.

Getting late but a few random bits:
- So Wes remembers Lilah's death and his go go gadget arm? What else does he remember from last year? Drew you're such a tease!

- Another M.C. Escher remark.

- And another Harry Potter reference! Was Percy Head Boy in Chamber of Secrets or Prisoner of Azkaban?

- Let's give Knox something other to do than look adorable, pretty please!

- Lorne's intro to Rodger was priceless. Love how he used the tradtional, and now that I think about it, condescending, meeting someone's mom type flattery. Good for him for not playing by our gender roles!

- Yet another episode about will and Angel's lack of. Hmm, are you trying to tell us something? Is that an anvil I see before me?

- "This was never about Wesley." Yes, I know but it was great to see so much of him.

That's it from me. Great episode, Drew, and don't stay away so long again, 'kay?



(with apologies to those TWoP recaplet-ers that I've been enjoying lately)


[> not drew but answering anyway -- anom, 22:54:22 11/12/03 Wed

"The Eve/Angel scene was clunkier than last year's heels, and Wes' scene on the roof felt too long in places. The totally unnecessary flashback to Rodger smuggling in the gun was most likely a director's choice so not blaming you."

Yeah, & Fred-as-hostage was so predictable it's not plausible neither Wes nor Fred saw it coming. (I liked Fred-as-muscle a lot better.)

"Rodger's unexpected mechanical condition felt like a cop-out at first but I thought about it and I agree that it would have been too heavy a plot point to hit this early in the year."

I would've liked to hear some explicit mention of the possibility that the cyborg really was originally Roger, even though that was ruled out at the end. Nah--they'd never have gotten the drop on him to turn him into one of those things. Right?

"From the teaser on we'd been seeing Wes trying to slip back into his darker persona, but neo-noirWes can't get the assurance and ruthlessness down."

I wonder if a non-mindwiped Wes would have done any better at facing his father. Or would he have gone too far in the other direction?

And finally...I'm thinkin' there must be a way to mystically password-protect those template books.

[> Re: Played any video games lately? (spoilers 5.7) -- neaux, 04:15:29 11/13/03 Thu

I pray I'm not the only one who Saw what looked like visual references to MAX PAYNE and Metal Gear Solid last night.

oh say.. lets check out this page

[> Re: Dear Drew (spoilers 5.7) -- CW, 06:52:45 11/13/03 Thu

The great thing about Drew is that despite the flaws, and there are some, the episode turns out beautifully.

Personally, it usually drives me nuts when some TV or movie imposter easily fits in and fools people intimately close to the real person. It wasn't that hard to guess ahead of time that Daddy Dearest was going to attack Wes in the vault and would eventually turn out to be a robot. But, I still enjoyed this ep a lot.

My favorite line was Spike's "...So, how've you been?"

[> [> Re: impersonation (spoilers 5.7) -- skeeve, 08:44:10 11/13/03 Thu

The impression I got was that Daddy didn't have a lot of personality to impersonate.

What personality Daddy did have suggested he was more into bludgeoning with words than with bludgeons.

I liked Spike's comment about sex with robots being more common than you might think.
He would know.
What kind of progeny should Spike and a Buffy-robot produce?

Now then, what are they going to do about all those WC records?

[> [> [> Re: impersonation and sexbots (spoilers 5.7) -- leslie, 09:26:03 11/13/03 Thu

"I liked Spike's comment about sex with robots being more common than you might think.
He would know."

The thing is, it was when he said that that Eve started really staring at him. I am coming more and more to the conclusion that she is a robot. She thought he was on to her.

Also, the massive contrast between Spike's demeanour in the scene in the elevator and his behavior in every other context leads me to believe that he is really losing it. He used to be able to put on the tough-guy snarky business so smoothly you thought it was the real him, but now it's like he's desperately trying to direct attention elsewhere (if he thinks Pavayne might still be after him, no wonder--does he know Pavayne is locked up in the basement? Does he believe the prison is inviolable?) "Hey! Look at that idiot over there! Angel beat up an old man! Wesley is a prig! Over there! That guy! Not me!" And really, when did Spike ever have a problem with anyone, especially a woman, looking at him too much?

But ultimately, I think the real question is, who's behind the whole plot? And I think that, even though Evil Dad turned out to be a robot, it's the reconsitituting Watcher's Council. They'd have the best access to the information needed to create a convincing replica, after all, and from the one side of the final conversation we hear between Wes and his (we assume) real father, I don't think that Wes is going to get around to saying, "Hey, dad, by the way, did you know that someone replicated you and sent it over here to perpetrate evil in your name? What's up with that?"

[> [> [> [> Re: impersonation and sexbots (spoilers 5.7) -- skeeve, 15:13:57 11/13/03 Thu

I'd have stared too had I not already known about Spike and the Buffybot.
There's no reason Eve would have known.
I'd have really stared had I taken seriously his suggestion of progeny.

Gettin back to Wes, Fred should have said thank you.
Not just for ordinary politeness, but to remind Wes that he'd done the right thing and it would have still been the right thing had the target actually been his father.
With consoling like Wes got, who needs criticism?

[> [> [> [> Resources, Spike, Eve, & a gripe. -- RadiusRS, 16:33:41 11/13/03 Thu

Wolfram & Hart also has the resources to pull off what happened tonight. And I still say Inside Job. By the way, do you think perhaps Eve was going to the White Room when Spike interrupted her? And why would she tip her hand about the amulet being meant for Spike unless she WANTS to drive a wedge between him and Angel. I hope that the weird pacing I've felt so far this season is purposefully due to ME planning, trying to keep us off balance about what's going on and why everyone's acting so weird, though after Buffy S7, with the whole Giles acting weird debacle, "is-she-or-isn't she Joyce", and the toothless Big Bad, three great storylines with wasted potential, I'm not so sure anymore. And this doesn't feel like the usual ME red herring either, unless they have found a new method to trick us.

[> Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers 5.7) -- Ponygirl, 09:41:42 11/13/03 Thu

There's a thread on the Angel After Spike board discussing Arthurian knights (it's also a massively spoilery thread so not for the spoiler-free or even spoiler-lite!) which got me wondering if the Percy comments were not simply a Harry Potter joke. Is the role of Percival/Parsifal that's been discussed here too lately not necessarily Spike's?

[> [> Re: Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers 5.7) -- Claudia, 10:46:15 11/13/03 Thu

You could be right. Someone has hinted that Wesley could be Percival.

[> [> Re: Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers 5.7) -- leslie, 10:47:52 11/13/03 Thu

Though the name "Percy" already has unfortunate associations in the Buffyverse due to that jock whom Willow tutored in S3.

Watchers' Council -- aperitis, 09:16:56 11/13/03 Thu

So they are insinuating that someone had the foresight to go and steal or copy secret Watcher's Council files about wesley and his father from the WC building in London before it was blown up...could it be that someone was in cahoots with the first-evil? this is confusing because they are saying know what?...i daunt know what they're saying


[> Re: Watchers' Council -- Ames, 12:16:57 11/13/03 Thu

Could be a red herring. The Watchers Council files were blown up and destroyed as far as we know. They speculated that this was the source of the detailed information used to simulate Wesley's father because they didn't want to think about the obvious alternative - that the source was Wesley's father himself. If he's really as ruthless as his robot double seemed to be, he might well be part of the whole Ninja cyborg scheme after all.

Think about it - how likely is it that a cyborg double created from paper records could simulate someone well enough to fool his own son - complete with reminiscing about shared experiences and answering unexpected questions? Much more likely that the real person is nearby, guiding the cyborg in real time. Didn't they make a big deal about the overseas phone call Wesley placed to his father afterward, "Don't they have clocks there?" etc?

The story about the retired Watchers reforming the Council might have some element of truth to it. They would be a candidate to go after Angel and W&H, and they would probably be trying to sweep up all the new Slayers in the world too. (Hmmm, what exactly is Buffy doing in Europe?)

[> [> Re: Watchers' Council -- aperitis, 13:27:36 11/13/03 Thu

if it was wesleys father himself, then it doesnt make sense to go to all the trouble to program a robot with all his memories and mannerisms and a profile of wesleys childhood and adulthood and then go ahead and magically glamour it to make it look like him. wouldnt it be infinitely easier to go do it yourself? BTW, "angel" is the now the only show that keeps us abreast of the goings on of the buffyverse...i think they should let us know whats happening with the watchers and the slayers...i mean, every slayer on Earth has been activated, i think its something worth at least a mention by spike or something no?

[> [> [> Re: Watchers' Council -- phoenix, 16:12:28 11/13/03 Thu


As I live in Scotland I don't get to see the new season of Angel for months yet, I don't have a source of tapes in the USA like TCH,*sighs sadly* and I'm incapable of staying away from spoilers. I am dying to find out what is happening with all the newly activated slayers too. M.E. can't open up a story line that huge and then just ignore it, that would be a terrible waste, I must trust in Joss.

I was wondering where a new watcher's council would set up and how it's organisation would differ from the incredibly patriarchal original. Who would head it? Or can you imagine them rebelling completely and forming a co-operative, or starting an anarchist movement.Hmmm, probably not. How would they even begin to deal with the enormous task of finding and training possibly thousands of new, and most likely rather confused, slayers. "Vampires, you say, really?" As has been mentioned before, activating all the potential slayers is a wonderfully empowering metaphor but if you follow the story through to its' logical conclusion it could create some very serious problems. Oh the dramatic possibilities. I am not sure they would devote as much time to this story as I would like on Angel, after all it's a show centred around a vampire with a soul, not slayers, but I was wondering ,if there is a Faith spin-off(or a Willow spin-off, though that sounds seriously unlikely) could it be partly centred around the consequences of Willow's nifty spell?

Buffy- meaning -- angel's nibblet, 15:56:04 11/10/03 Mon

Found this while randomly searching for name meaning's of Buffy characters:

Means 'God's promise' does it? *scratches non-existent female beard in thoughtful manner*

Haha I see 67% of people hate the name, sad sad sad.

I've always been interested in the significance that the character's names have to their personality/ role they play in the shows, as many of them seem quite aptly picked, whether this was planned or not.

There are other ones of course, for instance Winifred apparently means "friend of peace"


[> Kendra -- angel's nibblet, 16:32:33 11/10/03 Mon

Here's another one:

That's interesting isn't it? Kendra was all about the knowledge, she was very much what Watcher's Council vision of the perfect slayer; well read, isolated from her family, no friends, and her life was completely devoted to her slaying...

[> [> Procrastinating at work? Who me? -- Sheri, 15:30:23 11/11/03 Tue

Buffy-God's Promise
Faith-trust, faith
Rupert-Bright Fame
Giles-baby goat
William-valiant protector
Spike-long, heavy nail
Liam-unwavering protector
Darla-Dear, Loved One
Cordelia-rope, heart, a sea jewel
Tara-rocky hill, tower
Kennedy-helmeted chief
Winnifred-friend of peace
Fred-Peaceful Ruler
Kendra-understaning, knowledge
(Ale)Xander-protector of mankind
Wesley-west meadow
Lindsey-Linden Trees Near the Water
Daniel (Holtz):my judge is the Lord
Jasmine-gift from God
Connor-Much wanted (awe, sniff!)

[> [> [> Isn't it interesting that William and Liam mean almost exactly the same thing? -- angel's nibblet, 15:41:10 11/11/03 Tue

In fact if you chop off the Wil...but now I'm just stating the obvious

[> Xander, Giles, and Willow -- Vickie, 08:27:47 11/11/03 Tue

Alexander is protector of mankind (true).

Willow, they believe, is a male's name.

And Giles (poor fellow!) means a baby goat.

[> [> Rupert, however, means 'bright flame', awwwwww -- angel's nibblet, 15:37:52 11/11/03 Tue

[> [> [> So... Rupert Giles = Bright Flaming Baby Goat? -- Sheri, who is wondering about connections to Abraham/Isaac, 17:15:43 11/11/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Now THAT is a disturbing image *blink* ! -- Vesica, 07:14:22 11/12/03 Wed

[> [> [> Isn't knowledge represented by a flame sometimes? -- DorianQ, 22:31:42 11/12/03 Wed

[> [> [> Bright FAME I think (from the German rod bert) to ease the mind of and juvenile caprine readers -- Celebaelin, 04:37:35 11/13/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Willow -- skeeve, 07:42:14 11/12/03 Wed

In the movie Willow, the title character was a male.

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