September 2001 posts
What would you be like if you were a vampire?
-- Drizzt, 01:15:21 09/10/01 Mon
Describe a little about your personality. Describe how lacking a conciance and having the desire to
do evil would change your behavior. How horrific and frightening is this? Or are you really sick and
think it would be cool to be evil?
Not too graphic please.
Lots of discussion here on Angel/Angelous, Spike/Chipped Spike & William The Poet, and other
vampires. The discussions goes into how the vampire infection preserves the original personality, but
corrupts it with the desire for evil and the lack of conciance. These discussions are for characters on
the show. Just curious about the thoughts on how it would change the people here who seem to all be
intelligent people with variable, but strong morals and oppinions.
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[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Methodica, 01:31:12 09/10/01 Mon
Hmmm how would I change if I was a vampire.
Well currently I never see the light of day, Im constantly driaining the life out of everyone at my
current job. Obsessive, driven and quick to temper.
I guess the only difference would be it wouldn't end when I die.
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[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 01:39:05 09/10/01 Mon
Obbsessive, driven, and quick to temper? Type A personality...there are pros and cons to that. Stress
yourself out and others near you, but you get things done that a more laid back person would
not.
If you have a temper I will stay on your good side...or avoid you at night;)
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[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 01:33:37 09/10/01 Mon
I'll go first.
I am an introspective philosopher of magic and existance. I am good, fairly inteligent, cautious, have
no enemies nor do I dislike anyone; I do dislike the behavior of many people...not the people
themselves. I am physically unimpresive/skinny, never been in a fight and do not have any martial
training.
If I were a vampire and desired evil? I would be clever, cautious, and a scary basterd. Thing is I
really do not know exactly how my behavior would change as I have never hurt anyone and do not
want to.
The concept of me being a vampire does frighten me.
Final note is that a smart criminal is much much more scary than a stupid one.
The Mayor and The Doc were scary to me. Glory was pitifull. Only Joss could make me pity a
God...and an evil, pychotic bitchy winy god she was. Still pitied her:(
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[> The Wolf ***Warning Naughty Words*** -- Methodica, 03:03:15 09/10/01 Mon
Just had a second thought about the whole vampire thing. If I was a vampire I would be like Mr.
Wolf. I can just picture it now. Giles and Spike are driving away from hit they did on a bunch of
vampires. In the car Giles acidently shoots Johnathen in the face with a crossbow (explosive tip
think rambo 2.
INT. KITCHEN - MORNING 82. Xander hands The Wolf a cup of coffee.
THE WOLF Thank you, Xander.
He takes a sip, then, pacing as he thinks, lays out for the three men the plan of action.
THE WOLF Okay first thing, you two. (meaning Giles and Spike)
Take the body, stick it in the trunk. Now Xander, this looks to be a pretty domesticated house. That
would lead me to believe that in the garage or under the sink, you got a bunch of cleaners and
cleaners and shit like that, am I correct?
XANDER Yeah. Exactly. Under the sink.
THE WOLF
Good. What I need you two fellas to do is take those cleaning products and clean the inside of the car.
And I'm talkin' fast, fast, fast. You need to go in the backseat, scoop up all those little pieces of brain
and skull. Get it out of there. Wipe down the upholstery -- now when it comes to upholstery, it don't
need to be spic and span, you don't need to eat off in. Give it a good once over. What you need to take
care of are the really messy parts. The pools of blood that have collected, you gotta soak that shit up.
But the windows are a different story. Them you really clean. Get the Windex, do a good job. Now
Xander, we need to raid your linen closet. I need blankets, I need comforters, I need quilts, I need
bedspreads. The thicker the better, the darker the better. No whites, can't use 'em. We need to
camouflage the interior of the car. We're gonna line the front seat and the backseat and the floor
boards with quilts and blankets. If a cop stops us and starts stickin' his big snout in the car, the
subterfuge won't last. But at a glance, the car will appear to be normal. Xander -- lead the way, boys
-- get to work.
... .. . . .. ...
INT. GARAGE - MORNING 84. Both Spike and Giles are inside the car cleaning it up. Giles is in the
front seat washing windows, while Spike is in the backseat, picking up little pieces of skull and gobs
of brain. Both are twice as bloody as they were before.
SPIKE I will never forgive your ass for this shit. This is some fucked-up repugnant shit!
GILES Did you ever hear the philosophy that once a man admits he's wrong, he's immediately
forgiven for all wrong-doings?
SPIKE Man, get outta my face with that shit! The motherfucker who said that never had to pick up
itty- bitty pieces of skull with his fingers on account of your dumb ass.
GILES I got a threshold, Spike. I got a threshold for the abuse I'll take. And you're crossin' it. I'm a
race car and you got me in the red. Redline 7000, that's where you are. Just know, it's fuckin'
dangerous to be drivin' a race car when it's in the red. It could blow.
SPIKE You're gettin' ready to blow? I'm a mushroom-cloud-layin' motherfucker! Every time my
fingers touch brain I'm "SUPERFLY T.N.T," I'm the "GUNS OF
NAVARONE." I'm what Jimmie Walker usta talk about. In fact, what the fuck am I doin' in
the back? You're the motherfucker should be on brain detail. We're tradin'. I'm washin' windows and
you're pickin' up this nigger's skull.
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[> [> Hey Meth - I wanna see the "non-graphic" version ;) -- Liquidram, 09:21:53
09/10/01 Mon
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[> [> Re: The Wolf ***Warning Naughty Words*** -- Drizzt, 11:28:22 09/10/01 Mon
Loved your short fiction Methodica.
Your name is appropriate for the attitude of The Wolf.
Six Steps To Kevin Bacon? How about six steps to John Travolta?
Love all of Travolta's movies...and you just connected a perverted and silly Travolta movie to Buffy
The Vampire Slayer; cool!
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[> [> [> The Wolf; Six Steps to John Travolta -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 13:16:50
09/10/01 Mon
1.) Travolta (or, as we used to call him in the 1970s, John Revolting) was in "Pulp
Fiction" with Harvey Keitel (Mr. Wolf.)
2.) Keitel was the preacher in "From Dusk 'Til Dawn" with Juliette Lewis, who played
his daughter.
3.) IIRC, Lewis was in "The Way of the Gun" with Ryan Philippe.
4.) Philippe was in "Cruel Intentions" with Sarah M. Geller.
5.) We all know what Geller's in.
Done in five.
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[> [> [> [> Re: The Wolf; Six Steps to John Travolta -- Drizzt, 14:03:23 09/10/01
Mon
I have a fuzzy and strange memory, what I remember and forget puzzle me. Anyway I would not be
good at any of those "Six steps to..." celebrity connection games.
I do love reading other peoples celebrity connection sequences.
John Travolta to Buffy...yeah!
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[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- LadyStarlight, 09:42:31 09/10/01
Mon
Right at the moment, I'd be pathetically grateful that vampires don't get sinus colds!
I'd probably make a good vampire. Don't know how evil I'd be--I'd more than likely end up like the
popcorn & CD vamps in Crush.
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[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:37:38 09/10/01 Mon
Ahh no allergies or sinus problems...fair trade for being undead and evil?
Seriously, you would not be a big bad vampiress? Cool I fear what I would be if I were evil. Nothing
good or attractive about that fate to me.
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[> [> I'm with you on the sinus colds......... -- Rufus, 16:01:21 09/10/01 Mon
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[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Wisewoman, 10:48:48 09/10/01 Mon
Well, if I'd spent the last 20+ years studying and trying to be evil, instead of studying wisdom and
trying to be wise, I have a sneeking suspicion I'd have been much more successful in attaining the
evil!
Doesn't seem to me to be as complicated, or difficult to achieve. Sitting here at my desk in my office I
can think of a dozen things off the top of my head I could do that are "evil," i.e. would
have a negative or hurtful effect on someone else, while having no negative effect on me. If I were a
vampire and was guided by an evil star, I guess I'd just go and do those things...and not feel the least
bit guilty about them.
As to the actual vampire thing...I dunno, the sound the teeth make crunching through flesh gives me
the willies! But, hey, if that was what I had to do to survive, well, I think it's pretty amazing what
people will do to survive, and so I'd probably get over my squeamishness pretty quickly.
As a vampire, I'd probably have the time and leisure to plan really complicated evil plots. In fact, I
think I'd end up ruling the world!!
Heh-heh, okay, not gonna think about that anymore...urk!
;o)
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[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 11:32:59 09/10/01 Mon
Perhaps you would end up ruling the world, but you would be a wisevampiress queen:) Better than
some options of evil rulers; I vote wisewoman as my candidate for best evil vampiress!
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[> [> [> Thanks, Drizzt! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:13:32 09/10/01 Mon
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[> [> Vampire Enlightenment -- Ryuei, 12:18:30 09/10/01 Mon
In the Vampire role playing game most of the vampires are on a quest to rule the world, but some of
them are on a quest for what the game calls "Golconda" - vampire enlightenment. In
essence, Golconda is when a vampire reconciles the Beast within that craves blood with the vestiges
of Humanity that remain after the chain. The Vampire in a sense breaks or subdues their need for
blood, realizes how to tap into their vast powers more effectively, and realize a state of Humanity
(integrity and even compassion) that even few humans have reached.
In the World of Darkness (the setting for the game), Dracula is said to be on the path to Golconda
and a member of a mysterious group of very old and very powerful vampires known as the Inconnu
who have stay apart from the power-jockying of the other vampires and simply (so far) watch
everyone silently from the shadows - ever aloof and very mysterious.
I wonder if that path would attract anyone if they were suddenly to become vampires?
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[> [> [> Woo-hoo! Golconda, that's for me!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:17:37 09/10/01 Mon
Thanks for introducing the option of enlightenment for vampires--I didn't know it existed!
I'm beginning to think the Dark Side doesn't stand a chance, what with the evil-doers all starting to
aspire to goodness--well, we can hope, anyway...
;o)
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[> [> [> [> Kishimojin - the enlightened vampiress -- Ryuei, 14:45:45 09/10/01 Mon
Actually, in the very school of Buddhism I practice there is a famous enlightened vampiress. Well,
maybe I should say a converted rakshasa which is almost as good. The rakshasas are the flesh-
eating, blood drinking night fiends of India. One of them was named Hariti, and she was the mother
of 500 rakshasa children. The story goes that she would take the children of the villagers to feed to
her own ravenous brood. Upset but unable to stop her depradations, the people appealed to the
Buddha. The Buddha then used his supernatural power to hide one of Hariti's children under his
begging bowl. Unable to find her own child, Hariti was grief-stricken and in desperation the
distraught demoness sought out the Buddha herself. The Buddha then asked her to consider how the
villagers must feel upon losing their children when she is herself so upset at losing one out of 500.
Hearing this, Hariti finally realized how awful her crimes were and promised from that point on to
take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha and to stop harming others. In fact, she
would act as a fierce protector of the Dharma (splitting the heads and pouring down curses upon
unbelievers - hmm...maybe she isn't enlightened, but at least she's on our side now). The Buddha
then returned Hariti's child to her. In Nichiren Buddhism she is called Kishimojin, and she and ten
of her daughters are considered protectors because in the 26th chapter of the Lotus Sutra they all
bestow powerful dharanis (essentially mantric spells) for the protection of the votaries of the sutra.
Kishimojin is especially revered by the "aragyo" priests of Nichiren Buddhism who
undergo shamanistic ascetic practices for 100 days in the dead of winter in order to learn esoteric
practices and the power to do special prayers called "kido" for healing, protection, and
excorcisms.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Kishimojin - What a wonderful story! -- Wisewoman, 17:59:14
09/10/01 Mon
That is absolutely my favorite kind of story concerning enlightenment of any kind--when someone
can be brought to feel the suffering of others in such a way that they become one with them. I don't
think anything else really works as well, except perhaps an experience of unity consciousness (and
I'm only guessing on that, of course!).
Thanks for that one, Ryuei.
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[> [> [> [> Does the lack of a soul........ -- Rufus, 16:05:23 09/10/01 Mon
You guys just brought up what I thought of awhile ago. As we place so much importance on the soul
on BVS, does the lack of a soul disqualify a vampire from attaining enlightenment? I wondered about
that because of the change in the Prio Motu demon in ATS.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Does the lack of a soul........ -- Ryuei, 16:43:58 09/10/01 Mon
That's the thing - one of the main teachings of Buddhism is anatman which means no-self or no-soul.
In other words, there is no eternal immutable independent metaphysical soul stuff. But is that what
a "soul" means in the Buffyverse? Is it some kind of metaphysical entity or not?
Just the other day I was talking to a temple member about this. We were discussing what a
conscience is. Is it an innate predisposition to fairness or some universal ethic (I think that was C.S.
Lewis's contention) or is it something acquired through the process of socialization in family, school,
and on the playground? Is it a little bit of both? Is it something metaphysical? Can it be acquired or
does there have to be some biological or metaphysical basis for it. If it can be acquired, then is Spike
acquiring one because has been forced to interact with humans differently due to the chip? And how
involved is the conscience with empathy and how much does that depend on imagination? There are
so many factors and assumptions involved here that it's dizzying.
In Buddhism, at any rate, there is a teaching called the mutual possession of the ten worlds which
teaches that all sentient beings are capable of being reborn as any of the other kinds, and in fact
within a single lifetime can manifest to a certain extent the views and actions of the others. So a
human being can behave like an animal, or have a hellish day, or feel like they are in heaven
etc...but of course these other perspectives are colored by the world that one is in. So a hell-dweller
could feel the craving of a hungry ghost, or the territoriality of an animal as part of its torments, or
even a brief moment of happiness only to have it snatched away in order to make the sufferings of
hell all the worse by contrast. So from this angle, a demon could begin to take on the views and even
actions of a higher realm though it would be difficult and might be tainted by demonic perspectives
and habits at least at first. Or a human being could turn out to be worse than a demon though there
might be some ambivalence or remorse at least at first.
So essentially, from a Buddhist perspective it is not about the presence or absence of a metaphysical
entity, but about the character that unfolds based on ones actions and habitual tendencies over time
and even from lifetime to lifetime. So we can talk about demons or spirits that at least enter the path
if not attaining full enlightenment right off the bat.
But since the Buffyverse does seem to have metaphysical entities abounding - who knows whether
this would hold true or not. But I would submit that the Buddhist Prio Motu demon would be one
example of something very much like the mutual possession of the ten worlds at work in Joss's
vision. And for that matter, I would like to know more about the Tibetans who knew meditation
techniques and herbs to control lycanthropy (Oz referred to them). Did they help other demonic
creatures as well? And I'm pretty sure Angel had a statue of Kuan Yin in his sunnydale place, and he
certainly was practicing Tai Chi. Does that mean he learned Buddhist/Taoist techniques at some
point from a mentor who knew what he was - maybe after the Boxer Rebellion? The Host, Lorne,
certainly acts as though his demonic clients are on a path to something. To what? Some kind of
demonic self-fulifillment or enlightenment the way we understand it?
If I didn't have a lot of other things to keep me awake at nights, these questions would do the trick.
:)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh Wow! My thread has gone into a discussion of Budism and
vampire enlightenment...love it here:) -- Drizzt, 17:29:28 09/10/01 Mon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Lack of Conscience -- Wisewoman, 18:22:11 09/10/01 Mon
I would love to think that a conscience has some sort of metaphysical basis, but I'm afraid at this
point I have to opt for social/biological origins of conscience. Mainly because the alternative,
sociopathy, seems to have at least partially biological origins. My thinking on this is that it may be a
question of both aspects, social and biological, combining to make a true sociopath. In other words,
someone born with a biological predisposition against experiencing guilt, who also has a traumatic
upbringing, is going to be an accident waiting for a place to happen. But someone who deals with
only one of those things, and has a healthy experience of the other, will probably turn out alright.
(Did that make sense?)
In any event, I feel there is a distinction between conscience and soul, in that I don't think the soul,
as I envision it, is malleable to either social or biological forces (but that's not the Buffyverse soul I'm
talking about.)
;o)
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[> [> [> I'm thinking Bavarian Illuminati. -- Solitude1056, 17:25:51 09/10/01 Mon
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[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- vampire hunter D, 10:58:36 09/10/01
Mon
How would I be different? I wouldn't be. As I said in a previous discussion, i hate everyone and
everything. I already stay up all night and sleep during the day. ANd when I do go out in the sun, I
burn easily. Hand me some blood, I think I am a vampire (or at least a dhampyl).
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[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 11:39:23 09/10/01 Mon
You do not hate everything...you love the show Buffy The Vampire Slayer, right?
You want blood? See the Evil Dead trilogy of movies for a silly scene with lots of blood!
Stupid, silly, and very funny movies;)
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[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Ryuei, 11:12:24 09/10/01 Mon
A long time ago before job and family and real life intervened, I played Vampire: the Masquerade - a
role playing game wherein the players are the vampires.
I played a member of Clan Tremere. They were a secret society of wizards who had turned
themselves into vampires in the 12th century. They used ceremonial magick empowered by their
own blood and their innate vampiric powers to dominate the minds of others in order to take over the
world from behind the scenes. What could be cooler than that? None of this skulking around in
graveyards mugging people for blood. Why do that when you can live it up and manipulate current
events like a bunch of Freemasons with fangs? (Not that I believe in those conspiracy theories about
the masons, the trilaterals, and the CFR - but it's great stuff for role-playing games).
As a Buffyverse vampire, however, I would enjoy antagonizing drug-dealers, streetgangs, skinheads,
and other such types. I would try to isolate one (two at most), provoke a fight, show my "game
face" and then probably let them go and see if I could stalk them back to their homes. Then I
would do them in there. I mean, if you became a vampire you might as well revel in being near the
tippy top of the food-chain (well except for all the more powerful vampires and demons). So I guess I
would be like a blood drinking vigilante. Not because I would want to be a do-gooder (since a vampire
has no such impulse) but simply because it would be more entertaining to go after mortals who think
they are bad-asses and then to be able to show them true inhuman evil.
The rest of the time I would do what all good fin-de-siecle night fiends do - hang out in clubs and
listen to Goth and Industrial music. Of course such a cliche ridden existence would probably get to
me after awhile, and then I would have to figure out how I could take over the world (maybe I could
join the Masons?) and/or open up a hellmouth to relieve the ennui. Afterall, what good is unliving if
you can't make a difference?
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[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 11:49:18 09/10/01 Mon
Sounds like you want to be a vampire with a soul. Doing good as a vigilante monster?
Seen the movie "Blade"? Cool fight scenes including the ending fight with a god of
vampires...but the killing of a god with an overdose of bloodclotting stuff was hokey. Bad points of
the movie; not much plot, main character is "Mr Testosterone Grumpy Guy" to me at
least...and he was kind of boring.
Angel is much more interesting as a vigilante vampire. What's the name of that show with the good
vampire who helps people? The one where an evil vampire has an underground radio station.
Anyway that was a cool vigilante vampire also.
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[> [> [> From Batman to the Boardroom... -- Ryuei, 12:08:31 09/10/01 Mon
You are thinking of Nick Knight, the ever-atoneing vampire detective in (Montreal was it?) and his
sire the loquacious LaQua (sp?).
I loved Blade, though I agree that killing the vampire god with a blood serum was a bit too much to
swallow (oops, did I say that?).
Anyway, if I was a vampire vigilante it would hardly be due to having a soul or even any good
intentions. More like the joy of intimidating the intimidators. Kind of like Batman, but without any
respect for the law or human life, or any kind of conscience or humanity - and instead of revenge
motivating the vigilantism it would only be an overpowering thirst and a wish to crush and dominate
those who think they rule the streets.
Of course, after awhile if I was a soulless vampire vigilante I would get tired of going after small-fry
and I would have to up the ante and go after the bigger fish like mob bosses or their families.
Hmmm, then of course I might decide its more fun to take their place. I basically think that any
vampire worth their undead salt would end up like that Winters vamp in the first episode of Angel -
heading a boardroom (or at least a smoky backroom) rather than skulking in a tomb. After all, when
you can live for hundreds of years think of the fortune you could make with a few good
investments.
So if I was a vampire and survived long enough, I could see evolving from vigilante night fiend, to
boss of bosses, to corporate robber baron. The only obstacle would be all the other vampires trying to
do the same thing. And this is basically what happens in Vampire: the Masquerade. So the name of
the game for a vampire vigilante would be vindictive malice, arrogance, growing ambition, and of
course total hypocricy from beginning to end.
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[> [> [> [> Re: From Batman to the Boardroom... -- Drizzt, 12:23:05 09/10/01 Mon
I get it. You would be a vigilante for the love of a fight, not moral reasons. I guess I would respect
that; pick fights with those who are dangerous, live on the edge...Spike?
Bullys are despicable; only fighting those who are weak. Spike sought the most dangerous foe he
knew of; he might have been evil, but he was not a bully. OK so Spike was a bully sometimes.
Nick Knight? Yeah that show was cool.
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[> [> [> [> [> Putting the Scare in those who scare me -- Ryuei, 12:51:36 09/10/01
Mon
I think part of it would be the desire to have a good fight, but the real reason would be my own
hatred of bullies. Basically, I don't have any real enemies (hmm, actually I do, but I don't take them
all that seriously, of course there is this one guy - oh well anyway...) but basically there is a wish to
scare those who scare me. It would be a pure power-trip. What would give a greater sense of power -
scaring and then hunting down some poor innocent who isn't looking for any trouble, or going after
someone who is looking for trouble and who think they can push everyone else around. So if you can
push them around, then there's no one left for you to be scared of and no one who can push you
around. It would be about conquering fear by conquering those who make me afraid. This is why I
would not just engage in a simple fight and then feed. No, it would have to be a matter of making
them afraid, even mindlessly terrified first. Only then would I know (as a vampire vigilante) that I
was not merely a good fighter but something that others must fear.
But is any of this reasonable? Of course not. But these are the ugly feelings of fear and
powerlessnesses that would no longer be repressed or channeled or civilized by the "soul"
if one were to become a vampire. In this sense, I think vampires would become the scourge of
"evildoers" not out of any kind of altruism or sense of justice but simply because they
would have the power to torment and then annihilate those who they might blame for any feelings of
powerlessness they may have felt as mortals.
I could then see them looking upon the "innocents" as either mere food - a herd - or they
might decide to become paternalistic despots - shepherding the masses "for their own
good." Actually, I just finished reading Plato's Republic, and vampires would make the perfect
guardians for such a republic (a completely inhuman society in my opinion). Just as Plato described,
the guardians would have to be fierce fighters but live in very austere conditions with no families
(sounds like vampires living in tombs). Their needs would be minimal since they only really need
blood to survive. They would have a long-term perspective that humans would rarely ever bother to
cultivate, and lot of time to mellow out and read philosophy. I could definately see vampires getting
it into their heads that only they are fit to shepherd the masses for their own good and for the
sustenance of the vampires. (This of course was Deacon Frost's scheme in Blade). So from vigilante
vampire to undead despot with delusions of being an immortal philosopher-king!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Putting the Scare in those who scare me -- Drizzt, 13:03:39
09/10/01 Mon
I have voted for Wisewoman as my choice for evil wisevampiress queen.
Ryuei I vote for you as evil immortal-philosopher king of this thread!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Court of the Crimson Philosopher-King! -- Ryuei,
13:13:02 09/10/01 Mon
"Evil immortal philosopher-king"! That's much better than being a penny-ante vigilante.
And such good company too... an evil vampiress queen, a kickboxing flirt, a toy-loving
burghermeister, a confessional stalking VampWillow type. What a crowd! LOL
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[> [> [> [> So you'd be like the vampire Tony Soprano? Lol! Verrrry scary... --
Wisewoman, 13:24:31 09/10/01 Mon
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[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Deeva, 12:01:50 09/10/01 Mon
1. Describe a little about your personality. My friends (guys, girls, gay or hetero) would all use the
same word to describe me ...flirt. What can I say? It's not something that I can exactly switch on or
off. It's how I connect with some people. I am also very much an idealist. I try very hard to do what is
right but sometimes stupid people really tick me off. I don't like it when the world is not fair or right
( I know that it isn't but I still get mad about it anyway). If you have me in your corner, you can bet
that I will give my 110% into the fight. Right now I am learning kick-boxing and have always been
very physical. I have never fought anybody. I don't know what to say about appearance except that I
am fit and I could maybe kick some ass if I had to.
2. Describe how lacking a conscience and having the desire to do evil would change your behavior. I
know that this sounds like a cop out but I think I would be like Vamp Willow! As for the change in
me, well, the "doing the right thing" would pretty much be kibboshed. I'm afraid to
mention this but it came immediately came to mind, I might visit the people that have pissed off the
"human" me and torment them. Yeah, I've got a few grudges. Then, of course, you would
lose a lot of inhibitions. I'm not going to really get into that part except that I did say that I would be
like Vamp Willow, a little slutty and a little gay.
3. How horrific and frightening is this? Or are you really sick and think it would be cool to be evil? It
doesn't really frighten me. And I guess that that would make me one of the really "sick
ones". I think that the only thing that would eventually frighten me is time. If I were to be
fortunate or unfortunate enough to live forever, time would become nothing. Just think, to have an
existence that just stretches out as far as the mind can see. Feels kind of overwhelming. As a human,
knowing that you only have a finite amount of time in this world, gives you a bit of purpose or a
sense of urgency. Kind of the "gotta get there" type thing. As a vampire you really don't
have a destination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> All the Mellow Vamps -- Ryuei, 12:27:58 09/10/01 Mon
Deeva, Are you saying that after settling some old scores and maybe sowing some wild oats,
vampires would just settle back and mellow out since they potentially have all the time in the world?
LOL - what a great image. I am just imagining a bar at 2 am full of bored vampires just hanging out
with nothing to do, nowhwere to go, nobody left to see...Oh, but there is one of those in Sunnydale
isn't there?
And of course there is Karaoke! LOL. Probably Joss and Co. were thinking about this all along:
"Gee what would we do if we were vampires and had all that time on our hands? Hang out in
all-night Karaoke bars of course!"
All those mellow karaoke singing vamps...ROFL!
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[> [> [> Re: All the Mellow Vamps -- Deeva, 12:38:45 09/10/01 Mon
Ryuei, Ahhhhh...karaoke. What a misunderstood art form that is. No, not really! ;oD
No, I don't really think that vampires would mellow out and just do some slacking. I'm not exactly
sure what they would do. Conquer the world, turn it into Hell is just about the only thing that most
can aspire to. I was just taking the human need to always "be somewhere, doing something,
have a purpose to work toward" and trying to see what that would be for vamps. Was not
successful in figuring it out. But perhaps someone else will.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:30:35 09/10/01 Mon
Deeva, you would be like a kick-boxing, flirty VampWillow if you became a vampire?
I want you! Flirt with me, then drink of my life;)
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[> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Deeva, 12:42:34 09/10/01
Mon
Drizzt, yep. You pretty much summed it up right there.
Now, because I'm a flirt, the mere fact that you want me makes me not want you! It's all in the
game, my dear, all in the game.
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[> [> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:49:09 09/10/01
Mon
What is forbiden or unavailable is more desirable.
Teens and alchohol? Think it is cool, then turn 21 and it is no big deal.
Deeva you are desirable...because you are unavailable, so it is good you do not want me:)
He He.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> And vampiric romance blossoms on the ATPo Board...LOL! ;o) --
Wisewoman, 18:51:50 09/10/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> No romance, just the image of a flirty athletic VampWillow is
Mmm Mmm good! -- Drizzt, 20:39:34 09/10/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Shaglio, 06:12:02
09/11/01 Tue
"Now, because I'm a flirt, the mere fact that you want me makes me not want you!"
I on the other hand wouldn't be interested in a kick-boxing, flirty VampWillow in the least bit
(especially if you have red hair). Yup, that's right, totally uninterested whatsoever. Please do not for
one second think of drinking my life's blood. Thank You and have a nice day.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Hmmm...starting to be interested. ;o) -- Deeva, 15:44:10 09/12/01
Wed
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[> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Deeva, 14:09:40 09/10/01
Mon
Drizzt, yep. You pretty much summed it up right there.
Now, because I'm a flirt, the mere fact that you want me makes me not want you! It's all in the
game, my dear, all in the game.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- dream of the consortium, 12:43:32
09/10/01 Mon
I tend to be a bit like regular Willow in my life, insecure, intellectual, very afraid of hurting anyone,
very careful to be respectful, loyal in my relationships. So I could see certain aspects of VampWillow
in VampMe - the sadism, perhaps.
In T.H.White's "The Once and Future King, Lancelot is described as being so very kind
because his instincts are so very cruel. I don't have the full quote, but I found part of it on-line:
[Lancelot's] word was valuable to him not only because he was good, but also because he was bad. It
is the bad people who need to have principles to restrain them." and "He felt in his heart
cruelty and cowardice, the things which made him brave and kind." White also describes a
scene in which Lancelot is cruel to Guinevere, and seeing the hurt she suffers at his hands, falls in
love with her. Joss seems to have a grasp of this peculiar aspect of human nature. Noone could be
more gentle and mild-mannered than Giles, but we know his capacity for violence. Perhaps his
gentleness is a deliberate reaction to the vicious aspect of his nature - he knows too well what could
happen if he lets himself go. Of course, we also have Spike, whose insecurity in life turns him into a
boaster in the unlife, like so many high-school outcasts who revel in their new-found hipness in
college or beyond. I think I've gotten beyond that in my life, so that wouldn't be a part of my vamp
personality, though if I had been vamped earlier, that could be an issue. But the fear of hurting
people I still have - I very much related to the scene of Willow consoling Spike for not begin able to
bite her. Always looking out for other people can develop into resentment, and I think that
underlying resentment was what Joss was playing with with VampWillow. I was also raised in an
intensely Catholic environment, which I have tried to break away from while still giving credit to
those aspects of the Church which influenced me in a positive way. That's not an easy line to walk; it
can be frustrating. I think some of my anger at the Church could come out in a vampy fondness for
blasphemous evil - lots of dead priests in confessionals. Oh, and I've been very loyal in relationships
all my life, so I could imagine an VampXander/VampWillow type relationship - very attached, but
much more promiscuous than Spike/Druscilla. Yikes, I seem to have taken this a bit father than
anyone else. It neither scares me nor appeals to me, by the way. I just have a theory that whatever
issues you need to work out as a person come with you as a vampire, but the way they work out just
gets turned towards the evil. Sorry if this post is a little here and there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:57:39 09/10/01 Mon
Dream of the Consortium = VampWillow + Angelus facination with Convents?
Oooh! You would be bad, very bad!
You have the longest post so far on this thread. I am enjoying this different perspective on the people
on this board, including you.
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[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- mundusmundi, 13:45:46 09/10/01
Mon
As always, I'm blown away by one of your posts.
In T.H.White's "The Once and Future King, Lancelot is described as being so very kind
because his instincts are so very cruel.
Dare I say there may be a dash of that in me? I wouldn't say my instincts are cruel; my first
inclinations are usually to help people. When I get angry, it's usually on account of some perceived
injustice; also, not unlike Humanitas, I don't suffer fools gladly. (Nor myself, when I'm among the
foolish.) As a vampire, I might see myself as some kind of warped crusader, whittling out "the
evil" or just plain ignorant (which I believe Socrates equated with evil), all the while glorying
in my own deviltry.
The good news is I could still keep my job. Though I would have to teach night-classes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Well, first of all, I'd have to get a new name! -- Humanitas, 12:51:10 09/10/01 Mon
I let a lot of stuff roll off my back that really ought to piss me off. Truth is, I'm pretty non-
confrontational.
I'm thinkin' vamp-Humanitas isn't.
Yep. Lots of eatin' folks who annoy me. Trouble is, the thing that annoys me most is stupidity, and
then you get into that whole 'you-are-what-you-eat' issue, so maybe I'd need to snack on a professor
or two, just so I could have a balanced diet.
I don't see me as trying to rule or end the world, though. Too much work, keeping everyone in line if
you're running things, and if you end the world, well, what're ya gonna eat?
Maybe just ruling a town would do. Then I could have minions to do the dirty work, bring me toys
and stuff. Yeah. That would be cool. I hear there's an undefended Hellmouth out on the west coast
just now...
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[> [> Re: Well, first of all, I'd have to get a new name! -- Drizzt, 13:09:28 09/10/01 Mon
You are what you eat. Snack on a proffesor or two, just to have a balanced diet?
LOL.
Brings to mind a cooking show for overwieght vampires that need to stop eating fat people...
He he.
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[> [> [> Okay, whatever kind of vampire I am, I am *NOT* gonna cook people before I eat
them! -- Wisewoman, 13:56:35 09/10/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Would you add crackers to your blood to give it "texture"? --
Drizzt, 14:06:13 09/10/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> No. The crackers would make it too doughy. Add some roue and you'll
have a lovely sauce. *g* -- Deeva, 15:22:26 09/10/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for that barfy thought......:):):) -- Rufus, 16:30:37 09/10/01
Mon
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[> What would Rufus be like as a Vampire.............. -- Rufus, 16:34:49 09/10/01 Mon
First off I'd hope someone would dust me before I got going cause the idea of killing someone is
repugnent to me. If my moral compass were to change would I become evil or would I just think more
about the potential of being a balance of both? Just as long as I don't become mean to my furry
friends I would be very happy with a take out system for blood, and pretty much go on like I have
before. More time to read.
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[> [> Re: What would Rufus be like as a Vampire.............. -- Drizzt, 17:37:41 09/10/01
Mon
Rufus Cat loving peacefull vampire...
Buffy would invite you into her home, and give you a cup of warm pigs blood to drink while
discussing ???(I don't know, maby some advice on boyfreinds...she could use a good one that doesn't
go evil or to a vampire brothel)
Course Buffy is strong and does not need a boyfreind to define her. Dating and fun would be good
stress relief though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I would be Wisewoman's Thug -- cknight, 17:52:47 09/10/01 Mon
I'm a creative person, a artist and a nice guy normally but I feel the beast boiling below the skin. I
love to play sports, I get road rage, and I hate....really hate waiting in the checkout line for a year
and a half and always...always there's someone infront of me who needs a price check, at that
moment ladies and gentlemen...my thoughts are pure evil. ;)
So given that fact, without a soul I would work for Wisewomen since she would rule the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> ck, I'd make you Chief Minion! -- Wisewoman, 18:26:23 09/10/01 Mon
I'd definitely be looking to hire underlings with a creative bent...
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> So what you're really asking is... -- Solitude1056, 19:32:06 09/10/01 Mon
What would I be like as a sociopath?
Supposing, ten years ago, someone had woken me up one morning & turned a switch in my brain &
freed me up (or tied me down) into sociopathic state of being.
[I'm trying to remember, but I seem to recall a 'sociopath' is someone sans conscience, sans moral
compass, no sense of right or wrong or interest in finding it out, cold-blooded killer, etc., and
'psychopath' is more of the compelled but out-of-touch-with-reality type. Someone set me straight if
I've got those backwards.]
So, as I was saying, if it were ten years ago, then, yowser. I don't think there'd be much left of
Congress, and the Supreme Court would've been gone inside a year. (I lived just north of Capital Hill
at the time.) A lot of that has to do with the fact that from about seventeen to twenty-one, I was very
much a "try it once, and do it a hundred more times if you liked it the first time" kind of
person (but, uh, within moderation). A scrapper, a hooligan, a hellraiser, etc. Moving into the
sociopathic vein would probably have just taken that live-every-moment to the extreme. Violence and
death would be not for the idea of "ruling the world" or "making people pay"
but simply because I could.
And yeah, I've mellowed. Duh. Ya gotta, or you burn out (especially if you were going brightly there
for more than a few years). Having veered as closely to sociopathic tendencies as one can get (read:
acting out) in this society without requiring substantial medication, I'd have to posit the idea that a
great deal of my moral sense is now entirely within myself and not always in step with the society
around me. So I'm not positive that external influences would necessarily render me a gleeful killer
like I might've become, ten years ago - in other words, unless I chose to become cold to the rest of
human society, I doubt it's possible to remove what I've so completely assimilated my own personal
concepts of right and wrong. I'd end up like Harmony, yikes. But yeah: struggling to reconcile the
new state of being against what I innately feel to be right and wrong, for me.
That makes me wonder: does that release, suggested by a (literary tradition) vampiric release really
only have its full power within the metaphor of adolescence? Or perhaps the only time in our lives
that we stray dangerously close to sociopathic (in the metaphoric sense, not the psychological sense)
is when we're adolescent and struggling with the sense of "right" and
"wrong" and not trusting anyone over thirty? So therefore, the idea of being without a
conscience means we drag ourselves instinctively back to who we were as teenagers?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: So what you're really asking is... -- Drizzt, 20:57:38 09/10/01 Mon
OK, you would have been a really nasty specimine of a vampire if vamped ten years ago. Glad there
are (hopefully) no real vampires in our realverse;)
If you were to become a vampire now you would theoretically be much less destructive in an evil
sense because most of your aggressive tendancies have been explored. A wise/experienced person
who is vamped would still be wise.
Interesting posts on vampire enlightenment & wisdom in the middle of this thread. Um, do not have
a clear oppinion on the issue of "metaphore of adolescence" or "sociapathic
tendancies connection to adolescent sense of right and wrong" Something that is related is
"Seven stages of moral developement", I do not remember all of them and maby it is not
seven...whatever. Anyway it starts at pure selfishness of a child without understanding of sharing to
pure altruism and love that Buffy seemed to have in The Gift.
Need someone else to discuss these issues... If anyone can post the "Stages of Moral
Developement" I would be glad to comment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: So what you're really asking is... -- dream of the consortium, 12:08:25 09/11/01
Tue
I started a thread on the stages of moral development a while back. I assume it's somewhere in the
archives?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: So what you're really asking is... -- Drizzt, 13:05:38 09/11/01 Tue
Thanks. Will check another day. Now I am watching the news RE terroism.
Wish terrorists read your thread, and understood the futility of vengance and the cowardice of
terrorism.
Sigh.
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[> Ah... To suck, or not to suck? -- Marie, 08:28:32 09/12/01 Wed
.. if I may be allowed to misquote Will S.
'Cos that would be my biggest disadvantage, seeing two sides to every question. So, while the
vampire in me would want to bite, no questions asked, the human in me would be, like, er, hang on a
minute, should I do this.....? Oh, OK, then. But wait...! Ad infinitum!
On the other hand...
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[> [> Re: Ah... To suck, or not to suck? -- Drizzt, 13:41:31 09/12/01 Wed
What you describe is several scenes in The Crush. Spikes expression says without words what you
meant...
Buffy Ressurection Speculation...no spoilers. --
Drizzt, 13:54:39 09/10/01 Mon
Posted this on a thread below...
Buffy vs Dracula. My theory is Dracula was not "real", IE he was created by the Monks.
The reason he was created was to get a sample of Buffy's blood so that the Monks could create a
genetically related sister for the life-force of the Key(in the Gift Giles said the Key is living energy)
IMHO The Key IS Dawn's soul. End of the episode Joyce is complaing about being all alone now that
Buffy has moved out and gone to college; a few seconds later she tells Buffy to bring Dawn with her
to ??(I do not have a reccording of that episode, forgot exactly) and Buffy & Dawn both say
"Mom!" So in a split second history is changed and Buffy has a sister.
Family? Dawn finds out she is the Key and Buffy gives her a speach about how it does not matter
where she comes from, that Dawn really is her sister now. Both are bleading and Buffy says
"It's Summers blood, just like mine" and then mixes her blood with Dawns... This is very
similar to some American Indian rituals where a man is bonded as a blood relative by the exchange
of blood. A brothers oath, but that is a different subject. Relivant issue is the ritual was symbolic and
important for Buffy and Dawn.
The Gift Spike gives his explanation that "blood is life, of course it's her blood" RE the
use of Dawn/The Key for the dimensional opening/nexus. Dawn's blood touches a weak point in
space-time and the nexus opens. Dawn says "It's started, it has to have the blood" Buffy
connects the blood link, "death is your gift", and "it has to have the blood",
and in an act of faith gives her blood & life to presurve Dawn's.
Unknown and undefined if it is a real blood link or Buffy's faith that makes that option work. Either
way; it did work.
So that was the background of my theory. I think that whatever ritual or ??? brings Buffy back it will
have something to do with the blood link. And the reason that Joyce cannot be brought back is the
blood link with her is a normal genetic one vs. the supernatural and sort-of empathatic link between
Buffy and Dawn.
Sorry for anyone who read all this...I do not have a theory on exactly how it will be done, just think
the blood link is the key to the KEY and Buffy(grin)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> my fun theory -- JBone, 19:25:02 09/10/01 Mon
Since Buffy is now on the Star Trek network, she was transported by one of the Star Trek vessels
moments before her demise. Her imprint was filtered out by the Heisenberg Compensators, `a la the
2 Will Rikers from ST The Next Generation. She is finally pulled from the transporter buffers in
time to get the new season rolling. Live Long, and Prosper. Or as Kirk turned the saying on its ear in
Star Trek 3 "The Search For Spock", "The good of the one outweighs the good of the
many." It is useless to resist. Engage.
I don't have any real theory, I'm living "spoiler free" this year. And I'm putting my faith
in Joss and Marti to do it right. Hopefully, I'm surprised, and I'll wish I had thought of it or realized
it all along. I really don't want a cheap "Xena" resurrection.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: my fun theory -- Drizzt, 20:36:16 09/10/01 Mon
Loved the puns a la Star Trek. Wierd uniforms on the upn picture for the newest Star Trek
series.
I will be spoiller free also; I could not resist the temptation and checked a spoiler by Wheelchair
Hercules. Ahhhhhh! I do not like Hercules! Very annoying guy. My last spoiler exposure if I can help
it.
No Spoilers from me or for me. Just that Joss has this habit of giving hints; wich allways make much
more sense in hindsight. All my speculation was in regards to scenes in season five and how they
might connect to the return of Buffy in a non-cheese-man way.
Joss is sneaky and I trust him to shock me;)
Harnessing
the Key's Power for Good (spoilers for Fray #3) -- Kerri, 16:10:31 09/10/01 Mon
The monks knew that the key has the capacity to do a great deal of good. This seems to be why they
wanted Buffy to protect it with her life; the didn't want it destroyed, in their opinion its existence is
more important than Buffy's life.
I had wondered for a while what good the key could do, and it was only after reading fray that it
made sense. It seems like Dawn is used to open the portal that will force the demons to leave this
dimention.
Is this more or less the same idea that you all had or is there something else? Does this mean that
Dawn won't really have any special powers? And while we're on the subject of Dawn why did she
take the earings?!?!?!? Err! Sorry that just bugs me-I'm sure we'll find out soon. Anyway, sorry if this
is totally random!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Harnessing the Key's Power for Good (spoilers for Fray #3) -- ALLFORBUFFY, 11:59:33
09/11/01 Tue
If she can do that what about Angel and his destiny then. Also what about all the good demons and
beings that are supernatural too. There wouldn't have a need for slayers or warriors of good anymore
and that would be pretty pointless because then what are they fighting for then.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Harnessing the Key's Power for Good (spoilers for Fray #3) -- Kerri, 13:44:58 09/11/01
Tue
If you read fray it is explained that no slayers are called after that point.
World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- Helen, 07:14:45 09/11/01 Tue
News just breaking here - huge sympathies and prayers, chants, whatever you prefer, coming at
anyone who knows people who have been hurt or killed. Sitting in my office in Bristol, England and
registering huge shock, can't imagine what it must be like over there.
xxx
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- cknight, 08:00:08 09/11/01 Tue
I can't believe it. I live in New Jersey across the river from the World Trade Center. I also want to
send prayers out to everyone in that area. The Pentagon was attacked also by a plane. They're
closing bridges and all important buildings in Jersey. A large plane just went down in Pittsburgh,
PA they're not sure yet if its connected.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> watching it on the news right now -- spotjon, 08:22:21 09/11/01 Tue
Both towers of the World Trade Center have collapsed after being hit by two airplanes. A plane
crashed at or near the Pentagon, another near Pittsburg, PA, and another near Camp David. This is
almost certainly a well-coordinated terrorist attack on the U.S. Just watching the towers collapse on
TV, and seeing the smoke and dust cover New York sends chills up my spine.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> San Francisco is pretty much shut down -- Liquidram, 08:32:57 09/11/01 Tue
The schools, bridges, and all military installations have been closed. Bless all of you and keep you
and yours safe wherever you are.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- Masq, 08:54:18 09/11/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- Liquidram, 09:11:19 09/11/01
Tue
My cousins kids were sent home and said the bridges, highrises, etc. were closed.... second-hand info.
You surely know better since you are there.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- Masq, 09:20:00 09/11/01
Tue
I didn't even find out what had happened until I got to work and logged on this board. The buses are
running, the people at work are going about their business. I can see shutting down the airport for a
bit--I plane that crashed was coming here. But otherwise, SF isn't affected except for TVs set to the
news.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Not normal at all! -- Deeva, 09:28:16 09/11/01 Tue
I work Downtown near the Financial District and everyone is being sent back home (me too). All of
the SF schools are closed, City Hall is closed as well are the surrounding streets.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not normal at all! -- fresne, 06:41:56 09/12/01 Wed
Yeah, I got to work and they sent me home. My housemate, who works in Oakland was sent home as
well.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- VampRiley, 09:26:21 09/11/01
Tue
I live just outside of Philly and go to school at Temple Ambler. They've closed our afternoon classes
and my 11:40 a.m. class was canceled. I got an aunt who works like right next to the towers. I don't
even know if she was in the building or not. I heard about one woman who had just gotten out of the
Towers right before they went down.
Anybody see the film of people in Palestine cheering in the streets over what happened? I heard
about it on my drive home.
VR
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[> [> [> [> [> Too bad. -- Voxpopuli, 10:25:28 09/11/01 Tue
Arab countries tried to pass a motion considering Israel a racist country due to the treatment they
gave to Palestinians since Israel's independence, and the US threatened to leave the UNO conference
if this motion was discussed, let alone, passed. For them the US could have stayed neutral, not
backed up the Israeli and let UNO rule about it, but the US joined in the powerplay and, due to the
US's undeniable power, put their aspirations down. Instead of threatening Israel, they decided to
strike at the one country which has been supporting Israel throughout history: USA.
That was something one could easily predict. The unpredictable thing was : they had the courage to
perform the most perfectly terrorist attack in history.
They, most Arab nations, are not strong enough to engage in an open war. Saddam made this
mistake. If they can't hit with equal power, they hit with a weapon that is so insidious it sends
shivers down my spine: terror. They seek to destroy the confidence of the whole nation, to make
people paranoid, to kill at random and not in mass, but to create an environment where each citizen
feels like he is a target.
What makes the picture even uglier is that terror is the weapon of the weak, and sending nuclear
warheads to the area will not cease the threat of terrorist attacks, actually it would strengthen their
will to cause terror, because in their minds the US, as a major Israeli ally, is partner in the attacks
the Israeli makes against population armed with bricks and sticks. The men who kill themselves in
those attacks with explosives truly believe they are fighting an evil that can kill their family, take
the land they believe is theirs by right and by God, and so on.
Violence did nothing to improve this situation, and if this Bush guy thinks that a mere cowboy style
pay back is going to stop them, he is dead wrong.
That's why I say, that we, as inhabitants of the same planet, humans we all, should stop and think
about ways to make peace. Too much blood has been lost in all sides, it is too sad.
Voxpopuli
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> It's way too early to draw any conclusions regarding who and
why... -- A8, 14:25:27 09/11/01 Tue
...now is the time to do what we in the U.S. do best--we unify to deal with the immediate situation,
we investigate, we draw conclusions (right or wrong--we're only human) and we act (also right or
wrong). Now we're in the dealing with the immediate situation mode, so any talk beyond that
(fingerpointing and reprisals) is counterproductive at this point. Sadly, the fact, as you pointed out,
that so many people are so convinced that their god is behind them in whatever insane activities
they choose to engage, makes certain that there will never be peace in the world so long as people
continue to be motivated by superstition and greed. The sun will burn out before we ever evolve
beyond that. It's up to the rational and compassionate among us to clean up everybody else's mess
once again and carry on.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> please let's not jump to conclusions -- anom, 14:38:50 09/11/01
Tue
We don't know yet who's behind this. Remember that poor innocent Jordanian who was pulled off a
plane at the Oklahoma City airport after the Murrah bldg. was bombed because so many people
assumed "Arab terrorists" must have done it? And he was just a normal guy there on
business. I know it's tempting to make accusations--maybe it gives us an illusion of control to think
we know more than we do. Vox, I'm glad to see your last few lines taking a different turn.
And yes, I'm OK here in NYC. I live at the other end of Manhattan, & looking out the window it
looks so ordinary! My brother on the Upper West Side is fine too. My brother who's in the Air Force
& lives in northern Va. left on a flight to Moldova this AM; haven't heard from him yet but there's no
reason to think he's not OK. (He might not have been--he used to work in the part of the Pentagon
that was hit & stopped by yesterday to check in before his flight!) Haven't heard from my sister-in-
law directly but my other brother got an email from our niece that the rest of the family is also
OK.
I think there'll be a lot of rumors flying around & things may sound a lot worse than they are.
Outside the immediate area where this (what do I call it? nothing seems adequate) happened, there
are more cops on the street than usual, but nothing approaching martial law. Even in the areas
(directly) affected I think it's mostly emergency services directing operations. Nearby hospitals are
getting overwhelmed & asking all dr's. & nurses to come in & help. Phones were slow this morning
but a lot better now, although I'm still getting "all circuits busy" on some numbers.
Various subway lines are coming back in service.
I'm now worrying about the long-term aftermath...don't even want to think about what the reaction
will be. Hope everyone else out there is OK.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- VampRiley, 16:32:37
09/11/01 Tue
*Update*
Me Aunt had the day off as did her boyfriend, so no reason for either of them to have gone into those
buildings. In case anyone was wondering.
VR
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[> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- Lyra, 08:40:21 09/11/01 Tue
My thought and prayers are with u all right now.
Im completly stunned, and I think I can speak for everyone in the U.K. This is just incredible, so
many lives lost, such a waste. I just hope we can find out who was responsible for this tragedy.
xxxx
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[> [> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- astar, 08:52:46 09/11/01 Tue
I would just like to say that my thoughts are with everyone who was involved in the attacks and who
know people who were there.
like lyra i would like to say that i am totally stunned that anyone could do this. Everyone i've spoken
to are totally shocked. I hope someone is caught and brought to justice. The magnitude of lost lifes is
just so auful how could anyone do this?
XXXXXXX XXXXX XXX X
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[> [> thousands dead -- spotjon, 09:28:01 09/11/01 Tue
It's been estimated that thousands of people died in the World Trade Center towers once they had
both collapsed. Very few made it out alive. I've been watching footage of people jumping out of the
buildings just minutes before the collapse, falling nearly a hundred stories. I've never seen anything
nearly this disturbing in all my life. I keep thinking that is can't be real, but then I remember that
Lambert Airport here in St. Louis was shut down, and that makes it much more real to me. I keep
hoping that nobody gets it in their head to attack Boeing.
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[> Please post when you are able -- Wisewoman, 08:54:33 09/11/01 Tue
This has been such a devastating morning, it's difficult to know what to say, but please, if you have
even a moment today to check in, just post to let us know you're okay if you're in the US.
There are no words...
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- JoRus, 09:27:01 09/11/01 Tue
I'm in Seattle, and it's...chaotic, but fine. I've got two cousins I'm concerned for, one works out of the
Pentagon and one at the Smithsonian, but I'm sure they're fine.
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[> [> Posting -- d'Herblay, 09:43:10 09/11/01 Tue
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Shiver, 09:58:29 09/11/01 Tue
I work ten mintues from Newark airport and can (could) see the WTC from our office window. We
saw the smoke and were listening to the radio and watching when the second plane hit. We were too
far to see the plane itself but we saw the explosion. An hour later they sent everyone home. Schools
let out, banks are closed, all police and fire were called in to work even canceled vacations. My boss
is in Manhattan at a meeting and we can't reach him on his cell (towers are jammed, or down). We
could not call out from the office - a few people were able to call in. Some of our team members were
on flights around the country leaving from Newark and we cannot reach them either. We just hope
that as many people as possible got out in time. On the radio we were listening to, people from the
second tower were calling in to report what was going on at the first tower. They said they had been
asked to stay calm and STAY IN THE BUILDING because there was debris falling and people
crowding the streets from the evacuation of the first. Then the next plane hit. Those people were told
to stay put for their safety and suddenly they were all likely killed too ... There were fire crews in the
buildings trying to get people out when they both collapsed. I had to take a Xanax just to get through
the morning. This is unbelievable.
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[> [> [> Humanity -- Voxpopuli, 10:38:22 09/11/01 Tue
The owner of the company where I work arrived from Miami yesterday evening. His wife is still in
Miami, as well as his grandson and daughter. They are both safe.
Yet, most of the times he talks about the WTC he thinks about the hundreds of companies that went
down, or how will the market wake up tomorrow, what will happen to the stock market, etc.
I understand his concern, he has a company to manage, we all depend on the business to keep our
families, and stuff, but it was revolting to hear the guy talking ONLY about the loss of business and
market, and not a word about the human lives lost, the prospects for peace (or of war) in the future
and so on. I wonder how many humans are like this: so unhuman. Or is it me that am not
human?
Vox
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[> [> [> [> Re: Humanity -- Darrick, 10:46:41 09/11/01 Tue
Vox, the market and the economic effects are something you can get a handle on. The loss of life may
be harder to grasp for some people. Maybe it's just a way of coping. Also, we are talking about the
U.S after all, people assign the market a significance beyond the economic.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Humanity -- Liquidram, 10:48:05 09/11/01 Tue
The Director of Technology of my company who is also one of my very closest friends called me this
morning in tears.
First he told me of the disaster which I had not heard of yet, and then almost as a second thought, he
told me that his baby daughter and first child had just been born. His heart was full and broken at
the same time.
I will never forget, for the rest of my life, that his phone call, on which should have been the most
wonderful day of his life, was so full of pain.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Humanity -- Allison, 20:54:30 09/11/01 Tue
I was 7 blocks away from the WTC, at school, when all of this happened. People said that the
building shook, although I didn't feel anything. In one class, we were watching the news-a live
picture of the towers and one started to collapse. The TV went out, the lights flickered, and those
close to the windows said they could barely see anything because the smoke blocked everything out.
People were freaking out and some were crying.
About a half hour later, we were evacuated from the building and led uptown. As we were walking,
someone made a joke and a friend of mine said sarcastically that it was good he could laugh about
this. He responded that he was only joking around so he wouldn't freak out and panic.
Once we had stopped a safe distance away, my friends and I talked about how we were going to get
home since public transportation had been shut down. I felt guilty about worrying about things like
that while thousands were hurt or dying or fearing that someone they knew were, but the only
things that I could say about this whole thing were that this was unreal/unbelievable/from a
movie.
Bottom line-Maybe not thinking of the lives lost was part of a coping mechanism, maybe he was
thinking of all those people, but did not know what to say, or maybe it was something else. Everyone
deals with things in their own way and apparently your boss does not deal with it through talking,
but please don't automatically think he didn't care about the other effects of this besides
business.
btw, in case you were wondering, they reopened limited public transportation so I got home through
a whole lot of transfers.
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[> [> [> [> [> Sometimes it's laugh or cry -- Wisewoman, 21:52:47 09/11/01 Tue
Even on the chat board tonight, we fluctuated between the horror of what's happened and joking
with each other...it's a natural reaction to traumatic shock, you have to laugh or you fall
apart...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sometimes it's laugh or cry -- Drizzt, 01:27:43 09/12/01
Wed
Laughter is a coping mechanism. What is funny is pain in all cases. We feel the pain and need to
deal with it in some way; pain is sadness, fear, confusion, etc.
Jokes make fun of what is perceived as a threat; racism, sexism, and other cultural differences can
cause hostility or with a joke that both parties laugh at there can be a sort of camaradary(sp?) of
humor and the positive mood-lifting endorphins of laughter.
A smile is contagious, a laugh is contaigious( even ironically when we have no idea what the joke is
)
To make this relivant to Buffy; why do you think Buffy makes snide or humorous remarks while
kicking but?
Simple answer is the writers want some humor in the scene. Philisophical answer is that Buffy faces
death/danger easier with the use of humor.
Never ever feel ashamed of laughter because it helps keep you sane.
I need to laugh now, but nothing I have seen today has been funny to me. I am sure a laugh would
cheer me up though.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Dedalus, 10:16:38 09/12/01
Wed
That's my advice on the laugh or cry thing.
It's funny ... I watched this stuff on the news until about midnight, and I had tears in my eyes. But
once you can manage just a smidgen of detachment ... it's easy for those of us with no major political
or religious affliations, the whole thing does become laughingly absurd. I don't think it even qualifies
as stupidity.
As Wordsworth would say, here we are, "on a bright and breathing world," and really,
there is nothing to fight about. Nothing. I just think we need to catch whoever is responsible, have
Bush put them over his knee, and spank the living crap out of them. If they want to act like retarded
two year olds, they can be treated like retarded two year olds. They're not brave ... they're not
making a statement ... they're don't have a cause ... they don't have a reason. Of course, someone in
our studio audience is saying, "Well, they think they do." To which I would simply reply,
well, they're stupid.
The causes some have chalked up to religion. That's beyond intolerable from my point of view. Some
have said not enough living space. I think that's worse. Blowing up buildings in a country halfway
across the world is not going to change that. Either way, it's funny. There's nothing funny about it,
you say?
Okay, imagine if you were an alien, and you were spying on human civilization from above. Imagine
trying to explain the events down here. "Well, sir, see, there are these people. And then there
are these other people. And one group got together and decided to kill a lot of the other people. And
themselves in the process." "Kill themselves? What kind of sense is that?" "I
don't know sir." "Well, what seemed to be the problem?" "As near as we can
tell, these people flew airliners into the sides of buildings in order to appease what they believe to be
some kind of omnipotent, invisible old man who lives in the sky." "Lives in the sky? And
he's invisible, you say?" "Yes sir. Or so they believe." "So let me get this
straight - we finally find another planet fortunate enough to develop life. And this is sophisticated,
intelligent life. But instead of relishing the chance to be alive and one with the universe, they go
around flying aircraft into the sides of buildings, killing their own species, in order to score brownie
points with the invisible man who lives in the sky?"
Come on, if that isn't funny ...
I think we have found a most appropriate and fitting emblem for modern civilization - a paranoid
lunatic flying an airliner into a building.
As George Carlin once predicted, this is merely the "slow circling of the drain by a once
promising species."
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Drizzt, 14:53:23
09/12/01 Wed
Dedalus you got a chuckle out of me. Thank you:-)
George Carlin is cool.
See him in the new Silent Bob movie? Jeese that was a ridiculas movie...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Dedalus,
21:03:54 09/12/01 Wed
Your welcome, buddy.
I personally thought Jay and Silent Bob, while ridiculous, was SO FUNNY. I laughed pretty much
through the whole thing.
I just like to grant some off the wall perspective every now and again.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Drizzt,
21:50:22 09/12/01 Wed
I love all of Silent Bob's films. Evil Dead trilogy. Douglas Adams. Spike & Mike festivals of
animation...I see them every year in the local alternative theatre.
Off the wall perspective is good now and again?
Enderbyparanormal.com Check a thread called; "A Short Story" Written entirely by
moi... Might be offensive for monotheists.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Drizz--can you repost the link? Can't
find the web site -- d'Herblay, 22:08:30 09/12/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oops! It is a site in Britain;
Enderbyparanormal.co.uk -- Drizzt, 22:16:33 09/12/01 Wed
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- dream of the consortium, 11:44:57 09/11/01 Tue
People here in Boston have been locked at their tv sets all day. Everyone had someone to check on - a
friend in NY, someone on a flight. One of my best friends flew from Boston to LA last night, thank
God. The shock and horror of this is just inexpressible. And there is a terrible sense of waiting, that
if someone can pull this off, who knows what's coming next, the wildest possibilities could come true.
I've worked in the World Trade Center before and in the World Financial Center next door. All I can
think about are the crowds of people there on a weekday morning.
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Rattletrap, 12:38:39 09/11/01 Tue
Thoughts, prayers, and Godspeed to those affected. Aside from sending state and federal employees
home, life here in Oklahoma City continues more or less as normal, if anything on a day like today
could be considered remotely normal. I'm still trying to fit this thing into my mind, I can't quite get a
handle on it or something.
To anyone who wants to help: The Red Cross in NYC is asking for people all over the US to donate
blood because there is a terrible shortage. This is relatively painless and takes only a half-hour or so
(probably longer today, actually). I don't know if this applies for our transatlantic cousins or
not.
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- rowan, 17:01:10 09/11/01 Tue
Today has been devastating. It felt like a horrible nightmare from which I couldn't awake. I
experienced a small taste of the fear that thousands endured today as our building (which is located
directly behind Independence Hall) was closed & evacuated in the event that a 5th jet was still to
land.
My prayers are with our entire nation and with all in the world who love freedom and peace....I hope
this message finds all of you and your loved ones safe tonight.
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- change, 17:56:10 09/11/01 Tue
I'm in Boston. Two of the planes that were highjacked came from here. One of the guys I know at
work was almost on one. He was trying to switch his ticket to AA flight 11 to leave for LA a day
early. They wanted an extra $150 to switch the ticket, so he decided not to. I haven't seen him today.
I can't imagine how he feels. Talk about "There but for the grace of God go I"....
They evacuated the taller buildings in Boston. Our Governor spent the day in a bunker for security.
Some of the malls closed down because they didn't want large groups of people to be in a single
building. Things are very spooky here.
So this is what real evil is like....
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able/eye for an eye -- cknight, 19:40:52 09/11/01 Tue
I'm here but I feel kind of empty, mad. I may alone in this view here but once we discover the
location of the people behind this they should be destroyed. This view makes me also wonder what
happened to me, only a few years ago I was against the old eye for an eye thing.
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[> [> [> Re: eye for an eye -- Malandanza, 10:12:03 09/12/01 Wed
"I may alone in this view here but once we discover the location of the people behind this they
should be destroyed. This view makes me also wonder what happened to me, only a few years ago I
was against the old eye for an eye thing.
"An Eye for an Eye Makes the Whole World Blind" Gandhi
I agree with Voxpopuli that U.S. imperialism is partly responsible for this tragedy. Too often the
U.S. has intervened in the internal affairs of weaker countries -- the only means these countries have
of redressing their grievances (given our veto power at the U.N.) is through terror. We need to return
to our isolationist roots.
And there is plenty of blame to go around -- remember when Clinton bombed Afghanistan to get the
DNA tests off the front page? (Of course, Reagan invaded Granada to make people forget about
Beirut and Bush invaded Panama to show he wasn't a wimp). How about the international banks
that give terrorists, ex-dictators and drug lords access to their money? It does seem as though we are
reaping a bit of what we've sowed.
If the people responsible can be found and captured, they should be -- but to retaliate against a
nation for the actions of a handful of extremists would be wrong -- and would only escalate the cycle
of violence.
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[> [> [> [> Re: eye for an eye?We can't turn our backs -- cknight, 18:29:12 09/12/01
Wed
We can't go back to just worrying about America. The world is more connected than ever. The only
path is the one we're on now. What do you want to do when people are starving in some country
because some crazy leader won't let the food be handed out. Like it or not I think we are major player
in the world and we can't turn away from it. It's a double edged sword, if there's a big problem
happening in the world a lot of times you get the people from that region asking for help. This is
something I don't think we can away from. What other country in this God forsaken world would
really help any another country. Just as Buffy learns that she couldn't turn away I feel we can't
either. Yes I know that a lot of times we help out of selfish reasons, there's always good and bad in
everything. But tell me should we really turn a blind eye to world? I don't think we can.
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Cynthia, 21:31:44 09/11/01 Tue
I and my two sons are safe, physically. No loved ones were hurt, physically.
But I don't think my soul will ever be the same. I only pray my two young ones are too young to fully
understand what has happen. And will, hopefully, have the distance of time, when they do.
My thoughts and prayers out to everyone.
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[> [> Dazed in NYC -- Dariel, 22:47:20 09/11/01 Tue
This has been one bizarre day. I live in Brooklyn and never made it into Manhattan. I could see the
huge cloud of smoke from my apartment window. I used to be able to see the towers from here. I'm
several miles away from the WTC, but the smoke gave me a sore throat even at that distance.
Out on the streets between 11:00 am and 1:00 pm; just needed to get away from the TV and see some
live people. People on the streets all had this pinched expression, a kind of hunted look. Many of
them had walked miles, across the Brooklyn or Manhattan Bridge to get home. One of the
neighborhood churches was handing out water to folks as they passed.
A couple of my friends work downtown, one very close to the WTC, but they're okay.
The awful part is the news people all day, and the mayor, trying to avoid what is so obvious--that
thousands have died. They keep talking about "rescue efforts." I'm sure there are a few
people still alive down there, but only a very few. Not sure I want to keep living here--I don't like
being a target!
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[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Slayrunt, 01:53:27 09/12/01 Wed
Alive and well, as well as can be.
My thought and prayers to the victims and their families.
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[> It's been completely unreal. -- dan, 08:55:16 09/11/01 Tue
i've been watching the news since about ten minutes after the first plane rammed into the World
Trade Center. Very, very scary. I remember immediately shivering and thinking, "There's *no
way* that this is an accident." and in a few minutes, I was unfortunately proved correct.
My mom's overseas in Ukraine right now, and my dad's across the country at a conference.
Fortunately, they're both okay - but my sister had called me in tears, frantic with worry for both of
them, before we managed to get in touch with them.
i can't believe this is happening. It feels a million times worse than the Oklahoma City
bombing.
much luck and safety wishes for everyone out there.
-d
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[> [> My prayers are with you -- Voxpopuli, 09:20:33 09/11/01 Tue
I've never really liked the NA foreign politics, being at the side that suffered so much. But dammit!
Why??!! Who am I kidding, I know why, it is just that I... I just think that nothing justifies an act
like this, nobody wins, everybody looses. Pain, sorrow, grief, hatred... it does not create anything
constructive and good, only more hatred, more grief. And justice? What justice can be made right
now? Nothing will bring people back to life, and it may be possible that a pay back with violence will
only generate more violence like the one we are witnessing today. What should we all do? And I
mean we ALL, inhabitants of this planet! May Oxal‡ ease your pain, and make your sorrow bearable,
may his soothing energy make something good come from such pain in the long term, may the fear
disappear, and ... darn it! Why is it so hard to live and let live, to understand each other, and try to
dialog?! Why? Why does it ever have to end in such a waste of human lives?! This blood does not feed
the earth, it feeds the vanity of leaders of both sides, and in the end ... there is only grief, loss,
pain.
My prayers are with you, please keep posting sayig if you're alright, guys!
Voxpopuli - from Brazil
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[> [> [> Re: My prayers are with you -- Drizzt, 09:38:39 09/11/01 Tue
Oh my god. Glad I checked in here first, and did not here about it from the TV.
All of this sympathy and wellwishing will help me preserve my faith in humanity when I actually
check the news.
Going offline. Gonna watch the news right now.
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[> Report from D.C. -- Solitude1056, 10:20:16 09/11/01 Tue
We thought it was a joke, this morning, when our boss walked in carrying a portable mini-TV and
telling that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. Oh, please, we said, that's not funny. And then
he just made this wierd sound and nearly dropped the TV. It took a second before he could manage
the words that a second one had hit.
Then we got word that the Pentagon had been hit. Of all things, the Pentagon! I've grown up in the
shadow of that building, the largest office complex in the world, if not the largest building in the
world. Both of my parents have worked there at different times, and I used to spend days wandering
in the sub-sub-basement where there's a full mall and stores and people who practically live like
underground creatures... It's not comprehensible, I keep watching the TV (something I don't turn on
but every now and then) and saying, no, no, that's not possible. The Pentagon's walls are two feet
thick of triple-reinforced concrete, poured in one huge slab. The floors are two feet thick concrete,
with another triple-reinforcement. It's not real, watching the tape of the towers collapsing, it's
beyond unreal.
The cell lines around here are gone, down, out of use; the only contact is strangely through email. DC
is evacuating. I can only imagine that NYC is ten times worse, a whole city, fleeing. It's
inconceivable. My mother works at Ft. Myers, a stone's throw from the Pentagon. Three weeks ago,
they had a bomb scare & evacuated. This morning, when word came in that the Pentagon was
attacked, they told everyone to turn OFF their computers, take their stuff, and leave the building.
Before anyone could return, the commandant of the base announced that no one was allowed back
into the buildings - go home. And if you live in DC, go home somewhere else. My sister's in DC,
working about five blocks from the Capital area, but somehow managed to get word to my mom that
she's okay and staying put just north of the city. Many people are avoiding the metro for fear of being
trapped underground, and two of the bridges are shut down, like in NYC. The tunnels are one-lane,
since the second lane is being kept open by drivers for ambulances & other emergency vehicles.
Many of us in the suburbs are heading to the hospitals. Why, you ask? If you're in the greater NYC
area, or the greater DC area, go. GIVE BLOOD. They need it, any blood type, doesn't matter. GO.
I've got O-, and I'm leaving in a bit once I hear from the last of my family. I'm an hour out of the city
but they need every bit they can get, I saw ambulances and helicopters heading towards Arlington
while I was en route home. (Most of the malls, schools, and companies have all shut down & sent
people home.)
One last note about the Pentagon: eye witness reports are coming in that the plane came in a
strange angle, as if the pilot was trying to steer the plane to the building's side rather than straight
at it. And ironically, fortunately, the plane impacted the sole section of the Pentagon that's currently
being renovated, so the offices were (for the most part) empty - but there are definitely a high
number of deaths in the Pentagon, and the majority of those in the two towers are also believed gone,
plus (at last count) a hundred and sixty-four passengers, crew, and pilots of the United and
American Airlines flights.
There was an old man at the gas station when I stopped for gas, and his comment was that it was
another Pearl Harbor, but ten times, a hundred times worse. That's not an image I want to keep in
my head, but it keeps coming back. There are snipers around the Washington Monument, and
around just about every Federal building in D.C. They can't get the fire under control at the
Pentagon. The two towers are gone. I know I'm rambling, but I also know that the flight out of
Dulles - my back yard - is probably carrying people I work with, people I know. And my mother's
praying hard that the people she works with, who were at the Pentagon today for a major meeting,
are okay, but it's impossible to find out because the phone carrier stations are crammed. Curiously, a
majority of the cable stations are shut down as well, with bulletins to switch to the local news
stations for information. Those stations' headquarters are in NYC. I wonder.
So... the only other thing is that they're dancing in the streets in Palestine, and I have to wonder:
when does it stop, and who will finally have the gumption to say: there's got to be a better way to
figure out religious differences, political differences, cultural differences. There's just got to be some
other way than this.
It's nauseating to see the suicidal bombers in the Middle East, and I don't care which side they're for,
I don't believe that this is the way to solve the issues. Nor do I believe the violence in Ireland, on
either side, is ever justified. And now it's on my homefront, and I don't believe any more or any less
than I did last week that violence, as a route to a solution, only creates more problems. It never
solves them.
...and in case you missed that last part: go to the local hospital, and GIVE BLOOD. They're needing
every bit they can, and if you're well enough to check in, and you're in the metro areas for either city,
you're well enough to go give blood. Do it, don't wait.
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[> From Colorado -- Dichotomy, 10:46:38 09/11/01 Tue
Even here, some government buildings and the businesses nearby are being closed for the day. DIA
is shut down for at least the next 24 hours. My best friend's husband is in business in NYC and we
can't reach him. I feel sick and helpless and wish I could do something for the victims. If anyone
hears of anything that those of us who aren't near the tragedy can do to help, let us know. And my
thoughts are with all of you who are uncertain if friends and family are okay.
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[> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- Shaglio, 11:47:18 09/11/01 Tue
I'm just a little north of Boston. My coworker's father was flying out of Logan Airport to LA this
morning. She was terrified all morning because she couldn't get in touch with him, but eventually he
checked in to say he was alright. I can't believe that, in this day and age with all our precautions and
preventions in place, so many planes could be hijacked. I'm stymied by these horrific events.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> From Florida, this 11th day of September, 2001 -- Humanitas, 13:17:18 09/11/01 Tue
Not much in the way of happenings here, thank the gods. Florida is pretty far off the terrorist radar.
Our government and airports are closed, of course, but that's about it.
Oh, and Disney shut down, 'cause terrorists just hate Mickey.
Thanks to everyone who's posted to check in. I worry about y'all as much as any of my face-to-face
friends.
I have a very dear friend who works about a mile from the WTC. There was a message from her
mother on my machine when I got home - Christy's ok, she's been evacuated to another part of the
island of Manhattan to spend the night. Reports are that New Yorkers are handling things as well as
possible. No sign of looting, or anything. I post this to give hope to all my fellow posters who may
have friends or family in Manhattan.
May the gods be with us all.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> from a newsdesk in S.C. -- Wilder, 13:51:18 09/11/01 Tue
I'm a reporter in South Carolina right now and it's been a frenzy here, talking to folks who had
friends or relatives in N.Y. or D.C.
We're all in a state of shock; just punched out an afternoon extra edition.
Was in a Wal-Mart in a small rural town trying to get comments for a local reaction when there was
a moment of silence announced over the intercom.
So sad. So very very sad.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Sending out prayers and sympathy to all those affected -- Kerri, 13:51:51 09/11/01 Tue
There's not much to say right now other than to send my sympathy to everyone. I live in NY and it
was so unreal. Everyone was trying to reach family members who live or work in the city and
everything honestly felt like it was from a bad movie. It's just so terrible and tragic. Once again my
thoughts and prayers are with all those touched by the attacks today.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Columbus, Ohio -- mundusmundi, 15:18:03 09/11/01 Tue
All calm here. (Not much for targets -- unless you count the Santa Maria replica in the harbor.)
Funny, we just talked about terrorism in the last day of Civ 3 class (Modern History) a couple weeks
ago. Not in any way diminishing today's tragedy, but what's amazing isn't that terrorist attacks
happen, but that they don't happen more often. (Note that I'm defining terrorism in the general
sense here and am not automatically equating it with Arabs and/or Muslims, unlike a few chest-
thumpers on a local radio talk-show.)
I have a good friend teaching on board a military ship rounding South America. Can't even imagine
what it must be like there.
*Sigh.* And it was such a beautiful day.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I'm mad as hell -- JBone, 16:00:24 09/11/01 Tue
How DARE these terrorists attack my country? I don't know how the rest of the world sees America,
but it means a hell of lot to me. There must be retaliation, it must be strong, and it must be swift.
And if it's massive, so be it. And if the terrorists are in fact from a foreign country, that countries
government better hand them over or suffer some consequences of their own. I mean war. You don't
mess with the bull without getting the horn.
There will no such thing as a safe harbor for these terrorists. They will not only be hunted by the US,
but by all those with massive amounts of money who escaped the WTC. I can't even imagine the
bounty that these people will pony up. The humane execution of lethal injection is too good for these
bastards. They need a Mussolini style execution. You want a reckoning, HELL'S coming with
us.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> This just got a lot closer to home -- d'Herblay, 17:06:50 09/11/01 Tue
I've been wondering why Cleveland was so panicked, evacuating downtown when we can't be that
high a priority. I thought it had to be the Delta airliner from Boston to LA that was grounded at
Hopkins International. The I saw animation of the flight path of the plane that crashed in
Pennsylvania.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: d'Herblay -- Dedalus, 17:17:28 09/11/01 Tue
Glad you're okay. And, if I may turn to more perhaps trivial concern - that was a great essay. I
haven't had a chance to tell you this so far.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Even more trivial concern -- d'Herblay, 22:20:54 09/11/01 Tue
Thanks! It means a lot, both coming from you and coming on a day like today.
Which is now yesterday, here. I must sleep.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: This just got a lot closer to home -- Wisewoman, 17:19:42 09/11/01 Tue
That animation is absolutely horrifying. I can't help but think what must have been going on during
that flight--it seems so erratic--do you think perhaps it was heading back toward a target on the
Eastern Seaboard? That abrupt turn south at Cleveland, no wonder people panicked there.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Camp David, actually. -- Solitude1056, 17:43:49 09/11/01 Tue
They're not sure, since (obviously) it didn't get there, but that's the current assumption. Hard to tell.
Camp David, after all, was one of the locations of the original PLO-Israeli peace accords (along with
Dayton). It's also known as a presidential retreat, though unoccupied at this time.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Flight path of fourth plane? -- Drizzt, 17:23:39 09/11/01 Tue
That was bizzar. They could have hit a target in Cleveland. Overflew Pt(is that Pitsburge?), could
have hit a target in Pt. Crashed in a rural area.
Whatever the reasons that plane did not kill more than the passengers, I am glad. Sure you are even
more releived than me since you lived in the area & that "hits close to home" issue.
The tragedy is bad enough for me and I am on the west coast; I feel it as a violation of the US, but
not my city and home...
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Flight path of fourth plane? -- Humanitas, 18:02:59 09/11/01 Tue
Scary thing here was that the news initially described the crash as "just outside of
Pittsburgh." I have family in Pittsburgh, and family of whom I am particularly fond, at that. I
was pretty upset, until I saw the maps.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: struggle for the plane -- mundusmundi, 05:43:55 09/12/01 Wed
The paper this morning suggests that some of the passengers may have revolted during the flight,
perhaps accounting for the erratic pattern. "We're all gonna die," one passenger said to
his wife from a cell phone. "But three of us are going to do something about it."
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> My thoughts are with you all tonight -- LadyStarlight, 18:19:09 09/11/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: My thoughts are with you all tonight -- Nina, 20:34:41 09/11/01 Tue
Ditto here! I got the news pretty late today. I never watch the news out of principle and a friend of
mine had to tell me the news. She defined it as being the 3rd world war and I was too shocked the
rest of the day to watch any news. I finally did find the courage to opened the tv and see the horrible
images display before my eyes. My heart is with you all. My prayers go to all of you. Thank God you
all seem to be fine.
I have studied World War one and two in school for years. 3 years actually (it was a French school
and they liked the subject). I never got it. I learned the dates and I passed the tests and I learned
names and cities and battles. But I've never got it. In April I saw the preview to "Pearl
Harbor". I was going to see "Bridget Jone's Diary", have a little good time. The
preview floored me. I remembered. December 7th 1941. That was a date I had cemented in my brain.
It was only a date. The United States declares war to Japan. End of the fact. 94% in my test. What's
next? Geometry? When I saw the preview I cried my eyes out like there were no tomorrow. I didn't
see the fact that it was a movie. I saw what I never got before. I saw people dying. People afraid. I
saw horror. That's what I feel again today.
My mother reminded me earlier that peace begins with ourselves. Then we give it around to our
family and extend it to our friends. Our friends all have a family and other friends and peace can
only come this way. Not with violence. Not with vengence. So let's all have peace in our hearts. May
love guide us.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Anyone heard from... -- Solitude1056, 20:49:03 09/11/01 Tue
OnM? Cleanthes? Ryuei?
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Anyone who hasn't posted - just a subject line please! -- Helen, 07:34:16 09/12/01
Wed
I was just checking in, having been out of the office this morning, to see how many people have
managed to post to say they're okay. Not knowing where you all live, its hard to know if any of you
were in any danger. So anyone who hasn't already thrown in their two penny worth, please let us
know you're okay.
The reaction here in England is just stunned. Having the advantage of Sky I was able to watch CNN
as well as our news channels - the whole thing was unbelievable. It happened at about 2.30pm BST,
so all afternoon the internet was just grinding to a halt, then people in London were calling through
to say they had been evacuated just in case .. we could only imagine the suffering over there. And
still no nearer answers.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Still stunned -- Cactus Watcher, 07:48:39 09/12/01 Wed
For those not in the USA. Give us a little time to come back on-line. The Internet ties up phone lines
that were needed yesterday. Be patient, especially with our friends in the Northeast. Your thoughts
are deeply appreciated.
------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Anyone heard from... -- Andy, 09:32:13 09/12/01 Wed
Just checking in. I live and work in the general DC area, so I'm not terribly far from this stuff, but I
haven't had any problems, and everyone else I know is fine too. I just haven't been paying much
attention to the internet. Since yesterday I've seen a lot of hysteria that just made me want to shut
the whole thing off for awhile (I think I got sick of it all after about the 10th time I found out that
World War III had started...).
Latest News on terrorism...
-- Drizzt, 10:31:58 09/11/01 Tue
Horrible! Tragedy! I feel sick...
This thread is for updates as they come in; discuss the live news coverage.
Watching news for half hour.
1. World Trade Center; both towers collapse, 50 thousand worked there, at least 10,000 dead...and
would have been many more if the planes had impacted midday. Smoke from World Trade Center is
visible from 220 miles away on the International Space Station.
2. Pentagon; At least 50 dead, 100 to 150 feet of one side of pentagon totally obliterated, most of
Pentagon underground...will continue to function as our primary (official) intelligence center.
3. Other planes & bombs; just one small plane crash is a tragedy...these terrorists used our
commercial and trusted means of transportation as a weapon to terify us. This is more frightening
than a suite-case bomb that is left with a timer...these attacks had to have fanatics that would
sacrifice their lives and civilians in suicide/kamikazi attacks.
4. Source of Attack; unknown.
5. Updates on security measures; president is safe and hidden, all commercial flights cancelled,
martial law probably in areas surrounding attacks, thousands sent home, work cancelled, schools
closed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Latest News on terrorism... -- dan, 10:51:40 09/11/01 Tue
This is a useful link for piecing together everything that's happened so far that's been confirmed: A
constantly updating Chronology of today's events from CNN.
I can't believe it, i can't believe it. all i can do is continue to watch the tv with nausea in my gut and
tears in my eyes.
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Latest News on terrorism... -- Drizzt, 11:03:29 09/11/01 Tue
Dan "All I can do is continue to watch the tv with nausea in my gut and tears in my
eyes." I feel the same. I mourne for the pain, terror, and despair of the dead and all who knew
them. I will be watching in sick facination all day; better to do something else, but I would not be
able to think about anything else.
Thanks for the link, I will go make myself more upset by checking it:(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Latest News on terrorism... -- Drizzt, 13:00:44 09/11/01 Tue
Oh my god! News keeps showing the hole in one Tower, then the crash of the plane into the second
Tower, then the collapse.
On the news that sequence is shown in a minute or so; it is so quick that I could not relate to it. But
checked the timeline and it was a time period of an hour and fourty five minutes; I have this horrible
image of all the people in those buildings panicking and confused for almost two hours before they
died...
Moan. I feel worse now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Plane diverted to Whitehorse, Yukon? -- Wisewoman, 13:03:07 09/11/01 Tue
We've had one news report within the last 1/2 hour (12:00 - 12:30) that a suspected hijacked plane
was being escorted to a forced landing in Whitehorse, where it would be boarded by police and
military.
Haven't been able to find any more about it. Does anyone know what's going on there? Apparently
the plane was headed for Alaska, but details are really sketchy. Apparently it was a Korean
passenger jet? RCMP are still treating it as an hijack situation, and the plane is apparently on the
ground now.
Vancouver Airport has been shut down except for incoming international flights that are being
diverted from the US. We're expecting upwards of 6,000 passengers within the next few hours, and
they're asking the public to volunteer beds for them for the night because the hotels near the airport
are already at capacity with travellers who were unable to leave. Even this far away from the
attacks, there's a fair bit of chaos. All the downtown embassies were evacuated this morning, which
caused a major traffic snarl in Vancouver. I still can't believe this has happened, and I worry more
and more about what is still to come.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Plane diverted to Whitehorse, Yukon? -- Drizzt, 13:16:40 09/11/01 Tue
Do not know anything about the plane you mentioned.
Regarding what is to come. Promises by our polititions of justice & or revenge(allready started), some
type of retalitory action by the US military, big speaches and rehtoric by polititions...
The tragedy today is the worst terrorism in history. The tragedy in the larger perspective is this was
an act of violence against the spirit of the US for perceived or real crimes committed by the US(note
these "crimes" might only be crimes in the perception of the terrorists...)
US will retaliate. This will further anger the terrorists. I do not see a good solution, and I am glad I
am not responsible for the hard decisions of National Security as I am too much of an idealist to be a
practical and ruthless military decision maker.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> From the Globe and Mail -- d'Herblay, 13:17:22 09/11/01 Tue
(Do you know what the only recognizably Canadian news source Matt Drudge links to is?
Muchmusic.)
From the Globe and Mail:
KAL jets escorted to Whitehorse landing Tuesday, September 11, 2001
By STEVEN CHASE Globe and Mail Update Origination unclear, but Canadian air force treats
them with caution Ottawa - Two Korean Air Lines planes - one of which declared an emergency and
was being treated as if it might be under the control of hijackers - have been diverted to land in
Whitehorse under escort from what are believed to be both Canadian and U.S. fighter jets, CBC
said.
That's according to Yukon Premier Pat Duncan who spoke to the Globe and Mail today.
It is not clear where the aircraft came from or whether they are connected to the bombing attacks in
New York or Washington.
Reports said the jet fighters that escorted the Korean planes were CF-18s.
-------------
I'm going to ivyweb.com/chat for a few minutes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Can't get into Ivyweb chat from work... -- Wisewoman, 13:22:05 09/11/01 Tue
..but I'll check in there tonight when I get home, if anyone wants to chat. That'll be about 5:00 pm
Pacific Time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Got ya........ -- Rufus, 16:23:44 09/11/01 Tue
I should be around
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Air China passenger jet forced down at Vancouver Airport -- Wisewoman, 13:41:23 09/11/01
Tue
We've just had a radio report that an Air China (?) jet, escorted by an American fighter jet, has been
forced to land at Vancouver International Airport and is being escorted through the mess of planes
already on the tarmac to a hanger, where it will be boarded by police. Not sure what the rationale on
this one is.
The two planes in White Horse as well, someone just said one of them was low on fuel and that was
why the emergency call went out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Collapse of Building 7 -- Drizzt, 14:43:22 09/11/01 Tue
Rescue workers were not permitted to search in the rubble of the Twin Towers because of fear that
Building 7 could collapse and kill more people.
Valid and good judgement because Building 7 just collapsed. They had seven hours to evacuate it;
likely no casualties from that collapse. Caused by explosions, fire, and big chunks of one of the Twin
Towers. From how far away the building was any debree that hit it would have fallen 300 to 500 feet
before impact...
Minor point; been to New York, seen the Towers in person...WOW they are gone! Wow today we lost
lots of human life and a symbol of America;( Given the option I would choose to keep the life over the
symbol, but we lost both.
If you have not seen the Towers in person, just think of how small the 757 was in comparison to
them...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Bombing in Kabul, Afghanistan -- Wisewoman, 15:27:07 09/11/01 Tue
At this point, we are being told that Kabul, Afghanistan is under attack and is being bombed, but we
do not know by whom. One suggestion is that it may be the Afghani opposition in the civil war
taking this opportunity. Of course, the other possibility being tossed out is that the US has already
begun bombing in retaliation...hmmm, nothing confirmed or denied by the US on Canadian news as
yet, but it does seem that would be a little precipitate, unless they are very, very sure that Al-
Quaeda, Bin Ladin, and/or the Taliban are involved...
And this day just keeps getting worse.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> According to CNN, and Rumsfield--No US involvement -- d'Herblay, 15:51:24 09/11/01
Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Ashcroft: terrorists armed with knives -- d'Herblay, 16:20:47 09/11/01 Tue
and box cutters only on at least two of the flights, according to AG John Ashcroft.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: ATLTC .... -- Dedalus, 17:28:31 09/11/01 Tue
Here in Atlanta, wow. Just amazing. I couldn't believe the news this morning. It did seem so surreal.
And they really played it up, as they inevitably will do. Flip on the TV and "ATTACK ON
AMERICA," with the background of New York in flames. They made it sound like World War
III or something. If that fourth plane had made it to the White House - which they may have been
headed too - and had taken it out ... THAT would have been incomprehensible. All of Atlanta is
pretty much shut down. Airports, schools, malls, all big buildings. No traffic this afternoon on the
interstates, which was eerie as hell, considering our traffic situation.
But, all threads do led to Campbell. There's been a lot of finger-pointing today, but most of the
terrorist advisors and so forth are all leaning toward not secular bombers, but religious
fundamentalists. And this got me thinking. Remember in the Power of Myth, when Campbell was
talking about the horror of the Middle East, and how everyone has been at war for centuries for no
other reason than "they have three different biblical names for the same god"? I mean,
that's it. If people had listened to Campbell ... I swear, it just pisses me off. People dying for
antiquated nonsense. I mean, this is the TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY. When are we going to get it
together?
Oh well, pardon my rant. The President is coming on in a few minutes. That was a good PR move,
going to the White House. Good to know ya'll are okay.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Maybe their "god" is punishing them for their inability to see past the
symbols... -- A8, 19:25:45 09/11/01 Tue
..If they would just leave us out of their idiotic fight.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> They can't: the US backs Israel up, and Israel is part of the big mess. -- Voxpopuli,
05:11:21 09/12/01 Wed
Their problem is not the US, but Israel and THEN the US, because the US backs Israel up. Religion
and politics go hand in hand in the middle east, there is not way you can separate the issues,
because if you do it, you will not be able to understand their frame of mind. Israel would not be such
a great problem, if the big nations of the world chose to solve the problem, like they did for Israel
when the the State of Israel was created. There would still be conflicts, but they'd have a different
way of resolving themselves. I wonder how Americans see the problems in the middle east. We get
the news from various sources and we can distance ourselves from the conflict, so that our views
tend to be less biased. Unfortunately guys, you are more involved than you ever thought. And, sorry
for the ones who voted on Bush, he's handled the problems, even the US posture in the latest UNO
meeting over racial issues, very clumsily. Things did not have to get this far, but they did. A missile
shield? BS. Nobody needs a missile to create horror, a feeling of uncertainty and create havoc in the
market. And there is no such thing as complete safety. But big guns make one feel all manly and
powerful. Yes, but I doubt one will feel so powerful after getting a big kick on the balls. That's what
happened. So, instead of going after blood, America should prove more intelligent and go after a
more definitive solution to such problems, and so far it means seeking dialog, seeking peace and
understanding between nations. Violence creates violence equal or worse, but if you do things with
common sense, and a love wish, things tend to set down a lot better for all parties involved. Like in a
marriage, isn't it?
Guys, do not get mad right now. Let things settle down and think of definitive solutions, peaceful
ones.
Hugs
Voxpopuli
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Actually, I believe their problem is the savagery inherent in their
fundamentalist zealotry... -- A8, 11:02:15 09/12/01 Wed
..If Israel never existed, they would find someone else to kill, most likely they would turn on each
other (as in Afghanistan). Like the problems in the Balkans and the troubles in Northern Ireland,
these disputes are largely motivated by their own perverse interpretation of ancient superstitions
fueled by greed, envy, and primitive tribal politics. Since there will always be zealots, there can
never be real peace in the world, and all the prayers and nice thoughts cannot change that fact.
Providing people with land will not bring peace either, since there will always be someone
dissatisfied with the piece of the pie they were given, and there will always be someone who will
twist even the most benign of religious beliefs to exploit the dissatisfaction. Reasoned dialogue and
negotiation only works when you are dealing with reasonable people. If the people you negotiate with
believe that you are evil and have no right to exist, all your optimism and the faith in basic human
decency are just an invitation to your own extermination.
I'm not being critical of fundamental religion per se, but when its exercise results in the death of
even one person, it has crossed the line from legitimacy to criminal cult. Yesterday's acts were
immoral, inhuman, and the exercise of criminal cult beliefs. The people who committed these acts
and anybody who supported or aided them have forfeited the benefits of human rights and should be
treated with the same cold and emotionless detachment as we would treat vermin.
Reasonable people the world over, that is, those who peacefully exercise whatever moral or religious
system they hold true, should unite and develope strategies of containment against those who exist
only to destroy the peace and those who help them. I love pacifism as much as the next guy, but this
is the Realverse here--"why can't we all just get along is nothing but a pipe dream" as far
as I'm concerned. As much as I respect the idealism expressed by many on this board, I'm a realist
myself. It would be nice if this board were a microcosm of the world. Being able to express differing
opinions in an atmosphere of mutual respect without fear of physical violence (or even violent talk) is
truly a rare and beautiful thing. So while I'm always hopeful and willing to give people the benefit of
the doubt, there's just too much history that supports my cynicism. Turning the other cheek is a
wonderful concept, in theory. In practice, you tend to lose both cheeks (high and low), your life, your
family and your soul.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> There is no essential evil, there are things that hurt like hell. --
Voxpopuli, 11:44:23 09/12/01 Wed
Zealots? If you go deep in the history of the Muslim, you would see that in many ways they
represented a much more forward take on religion than the Christians. During the middle ages, the
progresses in mathematics, astronomy, optics, etc, were all fostered in Muslim countries who were as
fanatics as the nation next door, but whose fundamental stones were set at the development of
humanity as masters of this planet under the sacred rule of God, of one God. In this sense, they do
have a lot in common with Jews, for many years, Jews and Muslims lived in reasonable harmony.
Christians often posed a problem because of the Holy Trinity Concept, and later because of the
Saints. For them it is polytheism and it is something inherently evil. From this standpoint Muslims
and Christians have the same tendency to proselytise. Part of their creed is to spread the word of
their religion to the world, because this is the One Truth. Christians and Muslims, do not believe in
Truth as something constructed (or perceived), they believe in an essential truth, as well as in good
and evil as solid concepts according to a written law. After a time, and Jewish people can speak for
that, some religions tend to rise above a notion of territory. So you are first Jewish, second you are
American. Same with some Muslims. Through religion, national barriers are broken and people tend
to have an ultimate identification fac