September 2001 posts

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What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 01:15:21 09/10/01 Mon

Describe a little about your personality. Describe how lacking a conciance and having the desire to do evil would change your behavior. How horrific and frightening is this? Or are you really sick and think it would be cool to be evil?

Not too graphic please.

Lots of discussion here on Angel/Angelous, Spike/Chipped Spike & William The Poet, and other vampires. The discussions goes into how the vampire infection preserves the original personality, but corrupts it with the desire for evil and the lack of conciance. These discussions are for characters on the show. Just curious about the thoughts on how it would change the people here who seem to all be intelligent people with variable, but strong morals and oppinions.
[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Methodica, 01:31:12 09/10/01 Mon

Hmmm how would I change if I was a vampire.

Well currently I never see the light of day, Im constantly driaining the life out of everyone at my current job. Obsessive, driven and quick to temper.

I guess the only difference would be it wouldn't end when I die.
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 01:39:05 09/10/01 Mon

Obbsessive, driven, and quick to temper? Type A personality...there are pros and cons to that. Stress yourself out and others near you, but you get things done that a more laid back person would not.

If you have a temper I will stay on your good side...or avoid you at night;)
[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 01:33:37 09/10/01 Mon

I'll go first.

I am an introspective philosopher of magic and existance. I am good, fairly inteligent, cautious, have no enemies nor do I dislike anyone; I do dislike the behavior of many people...not the people themselves. I am physically unimpresive/skinny, never been in a fight and do not have any martial training.

If I were a vampire and desired evil? I would be clever, cautious, and a scary basterd. Thing is I really do not know exactly how my behavior would change as I have never hurt anyone and do not want to.

The concept of me being a vampire does frighten me.

Final note is that a smart criminal is much much more scary than a stupid one.

The Mayor and The Doc were scary to me. Glory was pitifull. Only Joss could make me pity a God...and an evil, pychotic bitchy winy god she was. Still pitied her:(
[> The Wolf ***Warning Naughty Words*** -- Methodica, 03:03:15 09/10/01 Mon

Just had a second thought about the whole vampire thing. If I was a vampire I would be like Mr. Wolf. I can just picture it now. Giles and Spike are driving away from hit they did on a bunch of vampires. In the car Giles acidently shoots Johnathen in the face with a crossbow (explosive tip think rambo 2.

INT. KITCHEN - MORNING 82. Xander hands The Wolf a cup of coffee.

THE WOLF Thank you, Xander.

He takes a sip, then, pacing as he thinks, lays out for the three men the plan of action.

THE WOLF Okay first thing, you two. (meaning Giles and Spike)

Take the body, stick it in the trunk. Now Xander, this looks to be a pretty domesticated house. That would lead me to believe that in the garage or under the sink, you got a bunch of cleaners and cleaners and shit like that, am I correct?

XANDER Yeah. Exactly. Under the sink.


Good. What I need you two fellas to do is take those cleaning products and clean the inside of the car. And I'm talkin' fast, fast, fast. You need to go in the backseat, scoop up all those little pieces of brain and skull. Get it out of there. Wipe down the upholstery -- now when it comes to upholstery, it don't need to be spic and span, you don't need to eat off in. Give it a good once over. What you need to take care of are the really messy parts. The pools of blood that have collected, you gotta soak that shit up. But the windows are a different story. Them you really clean. Get the Windex, do a good job. Now Xander, we need to raid your linen closet. I need blankets, I need comforters, I need quilts, I need bedspreads. The thicker the better, the darker the better. No whites, can't use 'em. We need to camouflage the interior of the car. We're gonna line the front seat and the backseat and the floor boards with quilts and blankets. If a cop stops us and starts stickin' his big snout in the car, the subterfuge won't last. But at a glance, the car will appear to be normal. Xander -- lead the way, boys -- get to work.

... .. . . .. ...

INT. GARAGE - MORNING 84. Both Spike and Giles are inside the car cleaning it up. Giles is in the front seat washing windows, while Spike is in the backseat, picking up little pieces of skull and gobs of brain. Both are twice as bloody as they were before.

SPIKE I will never forgive your ass for this shit. This is some fucked-up repugnant shit!

GILES Did you ever hear the philosophy that once a man admits he's wrong, he's immediately forgiven for all wrong-doings?

SPIKE Man, get outta my face with that shit! The motherfucker who said that never had to pick up itty- bitty pieces of skull with his fingers on account of your dumb ass.

GILES I got a threshold, Spike. I got a threshold for the abuse I'll take. And you're crossin' it. I'm a race car and you got me in the red. Redline 7000, that's where you are. Just know, it's fuckin' dangerous to be drivin' a race car when it's in the red. It could blow.

SPIKE You're gettin' ready to blow? I'm a mushroom-cloud-layin' motherfucker! Every time my fingers touch brain I'm "SUPERFLY T.N.T," I'm the "GUNS OF NAVARONE." I'm what Jimmie Walker usta talk about. In fact, what the fuck am I doin' in the back? You're the motherfucker should be on brain detail. We're tradin'. I'm washin' windows and you're pickin' up this nigger's skull.
[> [> Hey Meth - I wanna see the "non-graphic" version ;) -- Liquidram, 09:21:53 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> Re: The Wolf ***Warning Naughty Words*** -- Drizzt, 11:28:22 09/10/01 Mon

Loved your short fiction Methodica.

Your name is appropriate for the attitude of The Wolf.

Six Steps To Kevin Bacon? How about six steps to John Travolta?

Love all of Travolta's movies...and you just connected a perverted and silly Travolta movie to Buffy The Vampire Slayer; cool!
[> [> [> The Wolf; Six Steps to John Travolta -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 13:16:50 09/10/01 Mon

1.) Travolta (or, as we used to call him in the 1970s, John Revolting) was in "Pulp Fiction" with Harvey Keitel (Mr. Wolf.)

2.) Keitel was the preacher in "From Dusk 'Til Dawn" with Juliette Lewis, who played his daughter.

3.) IIRC, Lewis was in "The Way of the Gun" with Ryan Philippe.

4.) Philippe was in "Cruel Intentions" with Sarah M. Geller.

5.) We all know what Geller's in.

Done in five.
[> [> [> [> Re: The Wolf; Six Steps to John Travolta -- Drizzt, 14:03:23 09/10/01 Mon

I have a fuzzy and strange memory, what I remember and forget puzzle me. Anyway I would not be good at any of those "Six steps to..." celebrity connection games.

I do love reading other peoples celebrity connection sequences.

John Travolta to Buffy...yeah!
[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- LadyStarlight, 09:42:31 09/10/01 Mon

Right at the moment, I'd be pathetically grateful that vampires don't get sinus colds!

I'd probably make a good vampire. Don't know how evil I'd be--I'd more than likely end up like the popcorn & CD vamps in Crush.
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:37:38 09/10/01 Mon

Ahh no allergies or sinus problems...fair trade for being undead and evil?

Seriously, you would not be a big bad vampiress? Cool I fear what I would be if I were evil. Nothing good or attractive about that fate to me.
[> [> I'm with you on the sinus colds......... -- Rufus, 16:01:21 09/10/01 Mon

[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Wisewoman, 10:48:48 09/10/01 Mon

Well, if I'd spent the last 20+ years studying and trying to be evil, instead of studying wisdom and trying to be wise, I have a sneeking suspicion I'd have been much more successful in attaining the evil!

Doesn't seem to me to be as complicated, or difficult to achieve. Sitting here at my desk in my office I can think of a dozen things off the top of my head I could do that are "evil," i.e. would have a negative or hurtful effect on someone else, while having no negative effect on me. If I were a vampire and was guided by an evil star, I guess I'd just go and do those things...and not feel the least bit guilty about them.

As to the actual vampire thing...I dunno, the sound the teeth make crunching through flesh gives me the willies! But, hey, if that was what I had to do to survive, well, I think it's pretty amazing what people will do to survive, and so I'd probably get over my squeamishness pretty quickly.

As a vampire, I'd probably have the time and leisure to plan really complicated evil plots. In fact, I think I'd end up ruling the world!!

Heh-heh, okay, not gonna think about that anymore...urk!

[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 11:32:59 09/10/01 Mon

Perhaps you would end up ruling the world, but you would be a wisevampiress queen:) Better than some options of evil rulers; I vote wisewoman as my candidate for best evil vampiress!
[> [> [> Thanks, Drizzt! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:13:32 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> Vampire Enlightenment -- Ryuei, 12:18:30 09/10/01 Mon

In the Vampire role playing game most of the vampires are on a quest to rule the world, but some of them are on a quest for what the game calls "Golconda" - vampire enlightenment. In essence, Golconda is when a vampire reconciles the Beast within that craves blood with the vestiges of Humanity that remain after the chain. The Vampire in a sense breaks or subdues their need for blood, realizes how to tap into their vast powers more effectively, and realize a state of Humanity (integrity and even compassion) that even few humans have reached.

In the World of Darkness (the setting for the game), Dracula is said to be on the path to Golconda and a member of a mysterious group of very old and very powerful vampires known as the Inconnu who have stay apart from the power-jockying of the other vampires and simply (so far) watch everyone silently from the shadows - ever aloof and very mysterious.

I wonder if that path would attract anyone if they were suddenly to become vampires?
[> [> [> Woo-hoo! Golconda, that's for me!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:17:37 09/10/01 Mon

Thanks for introducing the option of enlightenment for vampires--I didn't know it existed!

I'm beginning to think the Dark Side doesn't stand a chance, what with the evil-doers all starting to aspire to goodness--well, we can hope, anyway...

[> [> [> [> Kishimojin - the enlightened vampiress -- Ryuei, 14:45:45 09/10/01 Mon

Actually, in the very school of Buddhism I practice there is a famous enlightened vampiress. Well, maybe I should say a converted rakshasa which is almost as good. The rakshasas are the flesh- eating, blood drinking night fiends of India. One of them was named Hariti, and she was the mother of 500 rakshasa children. The story goes that she would take the children of the villagers to feed to her own ravenous brood. Upset but unable to stop her depradations, the people appealed to the Buddha. The Buddha then used his supernatural power to hide one of Hariti's children under his begging bowl. Unable to find her own child, Hariti was grief-stricken and in desperation the distraught demoness sought out the Buddha herself. The Buddha then asked her to consider how the villagers must feel upon losing their children when she is herself so upset at losing one out of 500. Hearing this, Hariti finally realized how awful her crimes were and promised from that point on to take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha and to stop harming others. In fact, she would act as a fierce protector of the Dharma (splitting the heads and pouring down curses upon unbelievers - hmm...maybe she isn't enlightened, but at least she's on our side now). The Buddha then returned Hariti's child to her. In Nichiren Buddhism she is called Kishimojin, and she and ten of her daughters are considered protectors because in the 26th chapter of the Lotus Sutra they all bestow powerful dharanis (essentially mantric spells) for the protection of the votaries of the sutra. Kishimojin is especially revered by the "aragyo" priests of Nichiren Buddhism who undergo shamanistic ascetic practices for 100 days in the dead of winter in order to learn esoteric practices and the power to do special prayers called "kido" for healing, protection, and excorcisms.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Kishimojin - What a wonderful story! -- Wisewoman, 17:59:14 09/10/01 Mon

That is absolutely my favorite kind of story concerning enlightenment of any kind--when someone can be brought to feel the suffering of others in such a way that they become one with them. I don't think anything else really works as well, except perhaps an experience of unity consciousness (and I'm only guessing on that, of course!).

Thanks for that one, Ryuei.
[> [> [> [> Does the lack of a soul........ -- Rufus, 16:05:23 09/10/01 Mon

You guys just brought up what I thought of awhile ago. As we place so much importance on the soul on BVS, does the lack of a soul disqualify a vampire from attaining enlightenment? I wondered about that because of the change in the Prio Motu demon in ATS.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Does the lack of a soul........ -- Ryuei, 16:43:58 09/10/01 Mon

That's the thing - one of the main teachings of Buddhism is anatman which means no-self or no-soul. In other words, there is no eternal immutable independent metaphysical soul stuff. But is that what a "soul" means in the Buffyverse? Is it some kind of metaphysical entity or not?

Just the other day I was talking to a temple member about this. We were discussing what a conscience is. Is it an innate predisposition to fairness or some universal ethic (I think that was C.S. Lewis's contention) or is it something acquired through the process of socialization in family, school, and on the playground? Is it a little bit of both? Is it something metaphysical? Can it be acquired or does there have to be some biological or metaphysical basis for it. If it can be acquired, then is Spike acquiring one because has been forced to interact with humans differently due to the chip? And how involved is the conscience with empathy and how much does that depend on imagination? There are so many factors and assumptions involved here that it's dizzying.

In Buddhism, at any rate, there is a teaching called the mutual possession of the ten worlds which teaches that all sentient beings are capable of being reborn as any of the other kinds, and in fact within a single lifetime can manifest to a certain extent the views and actions of the others. So a human being can behave like an animal, or have a hellish day, or feel like they are in heaven etc...but of course these other perspectives are colored by the world that one is in. So a hell-dweller could feel the craving of a hungry ghost, or the territoriality of an animal as part of its torments, or even a brief moment of happiness only to have it snatched away in order to make the sufferings of hell all the worse by contrast. So from this angle, a demon could begin to take on the views and even actions of a higher realm though it would be difficult and might be tainted by demonic perspectives and habits at least at first. Or a human being could turn out to be worse than a demon though there might be some ambivalence or remorse at least at first.

So essentially, from a Buddhist perspective it is not about the presence or absence of a metaphysical entity, but about the character that unfolds based on ones actions and habitual tendencies over time and even from lifetime to lifetime. So we can talk about demons or spirits that at least enter the path if not attaining full enlightenment right off the bat.

But since the Buffyverse does seem to have metaphysical entities abounding - who knows whether this would hold true or not. But I would submit that the Buddhist Prio Motu demon would be one example of something very much like the mutual possession of the ten worlds at work in Joss's vision. And for that matter, I would like to know more about the Tibetans who knew meditation techniques and herbs to control lycanthropy (Oz referred to them). Did they help other demonic creatures as well? And I'm pretty sure Angel had a statue of Kuan Yin in his sunnydale place, and he certainly was practicing Tai Chi. Does that mean he learned Buddhist/Taoist techniques at some point from a mentor who knew what he was - maybe after the Boxer Rebellion? The Host, Lorne, certainly acts as though his demonic clients are on a path to something. To what? Some kind of demonic self-fulifillment or enlightenment the way we understand it?

If I didn't have a lot of other things to keep me awake at nights, these questions would do the trick. :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh Wow! My thread has gone into a discussion of Budism and vampire it here:) -- Drizzt, 17:29:28 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Lack of Conscience -- Wisewoman, 18:22:11 09/10/01 Mon

I would love to think that a conscience has some sort of metaphysical basis, but I'm afraid at this point I have to opt for social/biological origins of conscience. Mainly because the alternative, sociopathy, seems to have at least partially biological origins. My thinking on this is that it may be a question of both aspects, social and biological, combining to make a true sociopath. In other words, someone born with a biological predisposition against experiencing guilt, who also has a traumatic upbringing, is going to be an accident waiting for a place to happen. But someone who deals with only one of those things, and has a healthy experience of the other, will probably turn out alright. (Did that make sense?)

In any event, I feel there is a distinction between conscience and soul, in that I don't think the soul, as I envision it, is malleable to either social or biological forces (but that's not the Buffyverse soul I'm talking about.)

[> [> [> I'm thinking Bavarian Illuminati. -- Solitude1056, 17:25:51 09/10/01 Mon

[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- vampire hunter D, 10:58:36 09/10/01 Mon

How would I be different? I wouldn't be. As I said in a previous discussion, i hate everyone and everything. I already stay up all night and sleep during the day. ANd when I do go out in the sun, I burn easily. Hand me some blood, I think I am a vampire (or at least a dhampyl).
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 11:39:23 09/10/01 Mon

You do not hate love the show Buffy The Vampire Slayer, right?

You want blood? See the Evil Dead trilogy of movies for a silly scene with lots of blood!

Stupid, silly, and very funny movies;)
[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Ryuei, 11:12:24 09/10/01 Mon

A long time ago before job and family and real life intervened, I played Vampire: the Masquerade - a role playing game wherein the players are the vampires.

I played a member of Clan Tremere. They were a secret society of wizards who had turned themselves into vampires in the 12th century. They used ceremonial magick empowered by their own blood and their innate vampiric powers to dominate the minds of others in order to take over the world from behind the scenes. What could be cooler than that? None of this skulking around in graveyards mugging people for blood. Why do that when you can live it up and manipulate current events like a bunch of Freemasons with fangs? (Not that I believe in those conspiracy theories about the masons, the trilaterals, and the CFR - but it's great stuff for role-playing games).

As a Buffyverse vampire, however, I would enjoy antagonizing drug-dealers, streetgangs, skinheads, and other such types. I would try to isolate one (two at most), provoke a fight, show my "game face" and then probably let them go and see if I could stalk them back to their homes. Then I would do them in there. I mean, if you became a vampire you might as well revel in being near the tippy top of the food-chain (well except for all the more powerful vampires and demons). So I guess I would be like a blood drinking vigilante. Not because I would want to be a do-gooder (since a vampire has no such impulse) but simply because it would be more entertaining to go after mortals who think they are bad-asses and then to be able to show them true inhuman evil.

The rest of the time I would do what all good fin-de-siecle night fiends do - hang out in clubs and listen to Goth and Industrial music. Of course such a cliche ridden existence would probably get to me after awhile, and then I would have to figure out how I could take over the world (maybe I could join the Masons?) and/or open up a hellmouth to relieve the ennui. Afterall, what good is unliving if you can't make a difference?
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 11:49:18 09/10/01 Mon

Sounds like you want to be a vampire with a soul. Doing good as a vigilante monster?

Seen the movie "Blade"? Cool fight scenes including the ending fight with a god of vampires...but the killing of a god with an overdose of bloodclotting stuff was hokey. Bad points of the movie; not much plot, main character is "Mr Testosterone Grumpy Guy" to me at least...and he was kind of boring.

Angel is much more interesting as a vigilante vampire. What's the name of that show with the good vampire who helps people? The one where an evil vampire has an underground radio station. Anyway that was a cool vigilante vampire also.
[> [> [> From Batman to the Boardroom... -- Ryuei, 12:08:31 09/10/01 Mon

You are thinking of Nick Knight, the ever-atoneing vampire detective in (Montreal was it?) and his sire the loquacious LaQua (sp?).

I loved Blade, though I agree that killing the vampire god with a blood serum was a bit too much to swallow (oops, did I say that?).

Anyway, if I was a vampire vigilante it would hardly be due to having a soul or even any good intentions. More like the joy of intimidating the intimidators. Kind of like Batman, but without any respect for the law or human life, or any kind of conscience or humanity - and instead of revenge motivating the vigilantism it would only be an overpowering thirst and a wish to crush and dominate those who think they rule the streets.

Of course, after awhile if I was a soulless vampire vigilante I would get tired of going after small-fry and I would have to up the ante and go after the bigger fish like mob bosses or their families.

Hmmm, then of course I might decide its more fun to take their place. I basically think that any vampire worth their undead salt would end up like that Winters vamp in the first episode of Angel - heading a boardroom (or at least a smoky backroom) rather than skulking in a tomb. After all, when you can live for hundreds of years think of the fortune you could make with a few good investments.

So if I was a vampire and survived long enough, I could see evolving from vigilante night fiend, to boss of bosses, to corporate robber baron. The only obstacle would be all the other vampires trying to do the same thing. And this is basically what happens in Vampire: the Masquerade. So the name of the game for a vampire vigilante would be vindictive malice, arrogance, growing ambition, and of course total hypocricy from beginning to end.
[> [> [> [> Re: From Batman to the Boardroom... -- Drizzt, 12:23:05 09/10/01 Mon

I get it. You would be a vigilante for the love of a fight, not moral reasons. I guess I would respect that; pick fights with those who are dangerous, live on the edge...Spike?

Bullys are despicable; only fighting those who are weak. Spike sought the most dangerous foe he knew of; he might have been evil, but he was not a bully. OK so Spike was a bully sometimes.

Nick Knight? Yeah that show was cool.
[> [> [> [> [> Putting the Scare in those who scare me -- Ryuei, 12:51:36 09/10/01 Mon

I think part of it would be the desire to have a good fight, but the real reason would be my own hatred of bullies. Basically, I don't have any real enemies (hmm, actually I do, but I don't take them all that seriously, of course there is this one guy - oh well anyway...) but basically there is a wish to scare those who scare me. It would be a pure power-trip. What would give a greater sense of power - scaring and then hunting down some poor innocent who isn't looking for any trouble, or going after someone who is looking for trouble and who think they can push everyone else around. So if you can push them around, then there's no one left for you to be scared of and no one who can push you around. It would be about conquering fear by conquering those who make me afraid. This is why I would not just engage in a simple fight and then feed. No, it would have to be a matter of making them afraid, even mindlessly terrified first. Only then would I know (as a vampire vigilante) that I was not merely a good fighter but something that others must fear.

But is any of this reasonable? Of course not. But these are the ugly feelings of fear and powerlessnesses that would no longer be repressed or channeled or civilized by the "soul" if one were to become a vampire. In this sense, I think vampires would become the scourge of "evildoers" not out of any kind of altruism or sense of justice but simply because they would have the power to torment and then annihilate those who they might blame for any feelings of powerlessness they may have felt as mortals.

I could then see them looking upon the "innocents" as either mere food - a herd - or they might decide to become paternalistic despots - shepherding the masses "for their own good." Actually, I just finished reading Plato's Republic, and vampires would make the perfect guardians for such a republic (a completely inhuman society in my opinion). Just as Plato described, the guardians would have to be fierce fighters but live in very austere conditions with no families (sounds like vampires living in tombs). Their needs would be minimal since they only really need blood to survive. They would have a long-term perspective that humans would rarely ever bother to cultivate, and lot of time to mellow out and read philosophy. I could definately see vampires getting it into their heads that only they are fit to shepherd the masses for their own good and for the sustenance of the vampires. (This of course was Deacon Frost's scheme in Blade). So from vigilante vampire to undead despot with delusions of being an immortal philosopher-king!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Putting the Scare in those who scare me -- Drizzt, 13:03:39 09/10/01 Mon

I have voted for Wisewoman as my choice for evil wisevampiress queen.

Ryuei I vote for you as evil immortal-philosopher king of this thread!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Court of the Crimson Philosopher-King! -- Ryuei, 13:13:02 09/10/01 Mon

"Evil immortal philosopher-king"! That's much better than being a penny-ante vigilante. And such good company too... an evil vampiress queen, a kickboxing flirt, a toy-loving burghermeister, a confessional stalking VampWillow type. What a crowd! LOL
[> [> [> [> So you'd be like the vampire Tony Soprano? Lol! Verrrry scary... -- Wisewoman, 13:24:31 09/10/01 Mon

[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Deeva, 12:01:50 09/10/01 Mon

1. Describe a little about your personality. My friends (guys, girls, gay or hetero) would all use the same word to describe me ...flirt. What can I say? It's not something that I can exactly switch on or off. It's how I connect with some people. I am also very much an idealist. I try very hard to do what is right but sometimes stupid people really tick me off. I don't like it when the world is not fair or right ( I know that it isn't but I still get mad about it anyway). If you have me in your corner, you can bet that I will give my 110% into the fight. Right now I am learning kick-boxing and have always been very physical. I have never fought anybody. I don't know what to say about appearance except that I am fit and I could maybe kick some ass if I had to.

2. Describe how lacking a conscience and having the desire to do evil would change your behavior. I know that this sounds like a cop out but I think I would be like Vamp Willow! As for the change in me, well, the "doing the right thing" would pretty much be kibboshed. I'm afraid to mention this but it came immediately came to mind, I might visit the people that have pissed off the "human" me and torment them. Yeah, I've got a few grudges. Then, of course, you would lose a lot of inhibitions. I'm not going to really get into that part except that I did say that I would be like Vamp Willow, a little slutty and a little gay.

3. How horrific and frightening is this? Or are you really sick and think it would be cool to be evil? It doesn't really frighten me. And I guess that that would make me one of the really "sick ones". I think that the only thing that would eventually frighten me is time. If I were to be fortunate or unfortunate enough to live forever, time would become nothing. Just think, to have an existence that just stretches out as far as the mind can see. Feels kind of overwhelming. As a human, knowing that you only have a finite amount of time in this world, gives you a bit of purpose or a sense of urgency. Kind of the "gotta get there" type thing. As a vampire you really don't have a destination.
[> [> All the Mellow Vamps -- Ryuei, 12:27:58 09/10/01 Mon

Deeva, Are you saying that after settling some old scores and maybe sowing some wild oats, vampires would just settle back and mellow out since they potentially have all the time in the world? LOL - what a great image. I am just imagining a bar at 2 am full of bored vampires just hanging out with nothing to do, nowhwere to go, nobody left to see...Oh, but there is one of those in Sunnydale isn't there?

And of course there is Karaoke! LOL. Probably Joss and Co. were thinking about this all along: "Gee what would we do if we were vampires and had all that time on our hands? Hang out in all-night Karaoke bars of course!"

All those mellow karaoke singing vamps...ROFL!
[> [> [> Re: All the Mellow Vamps -- Deeva, 12:38:45 09/10/01 Mon

Ryuei, Ahhhhh...karaoke. What a misunderstood art form that is. No, not really! ;oD

No, I don't really think that vampires would mellow out and just do some slacking. I'm not exactly sure what they would do. Conquer the world, turn it into Hell is just about the only thing that most can aspire to. I was just taking the human need to always "be somewhere, doing something, have a purpose to work toward" and trying to see what that would be for vamps. Was not successful in figuring it out. But perhaps someone else will.
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:30:35 09/10/01 Mon

Deeva, you would be like a kick-boxing, flirty VampWillow if you became a vampire?

I want you! Flirt with me, then drink of my life;)
[> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Deeva, 12:42:34 09/10/01 Mon

Drizzt, yep. You pretty much summed it up right there.

Now, because I'm a flirt, the mere fact that you want me makes me not want you! It's all in the game, my dear, all in the game.
[> [> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:49:09 09/10/01 Mon

What is forbiden or unavailable is more desirable.

Teens and alchohol? Think it is cool, then turn 21 and it is no big deal.

Deeva you are desirable...because you are unavailable, so it is good you do not want me:)

He He.
[> [> [> [> [> And vampiric romance blossoms on the ATPo Board...LOL! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 18:51:50 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> No romance, just the image of a flirty athletic VampWillow is Mmm Mmm good! -- Drizzt, 20:39:34 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Shaglio, 06:12:02 09/11/01 Tue

"Now, because I'm a flirt, the mere fact that you want me makes me not want you!"

I on the other hand wouldn't be interested in a kick-boxing, flirty VampWillow in the least bit (especially if you have red hair). Yup, that's right, totally uninterested whatsoever. Please do not for one second think of drinking my life's blood. Thank You and have a nice day.
[> [> [> [> [> Hmmm...starting to be interested. ;o) -- Deeva, 15:44:10 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Deeva, 14:09:40 09/10/01 Mon

Drizzt, yep. You pretty much summed it up right there.

Now, because I'm a flirt, the mere fact that you want me makes me not want you! It's all in the game, my dear, all in the game.
[> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- dream of the consortium, 12:43:32 09/10/01 Mon

I tend to be a bit like regular Willow in my life, insecure, intellectual, very afraid of hurting anyone, very careful to be respectful, loyal in my relationships. So I could see certain aspects of VampWillow in VampMe - the sadism, perhaps.

In T.H.White's "The Once and Future King, Lancelot is described as being so very kind because his instincts are so very cruel. I don't have the full quote, but I found part of it on-line: [Lancelot's] word was valuable to him not only because he was good, but also because he was bad. It is the bad people who need to have principles to restrain them." and "He felt in his heart cruelty and cowardice, the things which made him brave and kind." White also describes a scene in which Lancelot is cruel to Guinevere, and seeing the hurt she suffers at his hands, falls in love with her. Joss seems to have a grasp of this peculiar aspect of human nature. Noone could be more gentle and mild-mannered than Giles, but we know his capacity for violence. Perhaps his gentleness is a deliberate reaction to the vicious aspect of his nature - he knows too well what could happen if he lets himself go. Of course, we also have Spike, whose insecurity in life turns him into a boaster in the unlife, like so many high-school outcasts who revel in their new-found hipness in college or beyond. I think I've gotten beyond that in my life, so that wouldn't be a part of my vamp personality, though if I had been vamped earlier, that could be an issue. But the fear of hurting people I still have - I very much related to the scene of Willow consoling Spike for not begin able to bite her. Always looking out for other people can develop into resentment, and I think that underlying resentment was what Joss was playing with with VampWillow. I was also raised in an intensely Catholic environment, which I have tried to break away from while still giving credit to those aspects of the Church which influenced me in a positive way. That's not an easy line to walk; it can be frustrating. I think some of my anger at the Church could come out in a vampy fondness for blasphemous evil - lots of dead priests in confessionals. Oh, and I've been very loyal in relationships all my life, so I could imagine an VampXander/VampWillow type relationship - very attached, but much more promiscuous than Spike/Druscilla. Yikes, I seem to have taken this a bit father than anyone else. It neither scares me nor appeals to me, by the way. I just have a theory that whatever issues you need to work out as a person come with you as a vampire, but the way they work out just gets turned towards the evil. Sorry if this post is a little here and there.
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- Drizzt, 12:57:39 09/10/01 Mon

Dream of the Consortium = VampWillow + Angelus facination with Convents?

Oooh! You would be bad, very bad!

You have the longest post so far on this thread. I am enjoying this different perspective on the people on this board, including you.
[> [> Re: What would you be like if you were a vampire? -- mundusmundi, 13:45:46 09/10/01 Mon

As always, I'm blown away by one of your posts.

In T.H.White's "The Once and Future King, Lancelot is described as being so very kind because his instincts are so very cruel.

Dare I say there may be a dash of that in me? I wouldn't say my instincts are cruel; my first inclinations are usually to help people. When I get angry, it's usually on account of some perceived injustice; also, not unlike Humanitas, I don't suffer fools gladly. (Nor myself, when I'm among the foolish.) As a vampire, I might see myself as some kind of warped crusader, whittling out "the evil" or just plain ignorant (which I believe Socrates equated with evil), all the while glorying in my own deviltry.

The good news is I could still keep my job. Though I would have to teach night-classes.
[> Well, first of all, I'd have to get a new name! -- Humanitas, 12:51:10 09/10/01 Mon

I let a lot of stuff roll off my back that really ought to piss me off. Truth is, I'm pretty non- confrontational.

I'm thinkin' vamp-Humanitas isn't.

Yep. Lots of eatin' folks who annoy me. Trouble is, the thing that annoys me most is stupidity, and then you get into that whole 'you-are-what-you-eat' issue, so maybe I'd need to snack on a professor or two, just so I could have a balanced diet.

I don't see me as trying to rule or end the world, though. Too much work, keeping everyone in line if you're running things, and if you end the world, well, what're ya gonna eat?

Maybe just ruling a town would do. Then I could have minions to do the dirty work, bring me toys and stuff. Yeah. That would be cool. I hear there's an undefended Hellmouth out on the west coast just now...
[> [> Re: Well, first of all, I'd have to get a new name! -- Drizzt, 13:09:28 09/10/01 Mon

You are what you eat. Snack on a proffesor or two, just to have a balanced diet?


Brings to mind a cooking show for overwieght vampires that need to stop eating fat people...

He he.
[> [> [> Okay, whatever kind of vampire I am, I am *NOT* gonna cook people before I eat them! -- Wisewoman, 13:56:35 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> [> [> Would you add crackers to your blood to give it "texture"? -- Drizzt, 14:06:13 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> No. The crackers would make it too doughy. Add some roue and you'll have a lovely sauce. *g* -- Deeva, 15:22:26 09/10/01 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for that barfy thought......:):):) -- Rufus, 16:30:37 09/10/01 Mon

[> What would Rufus be like as a Vampire.............. -- Rufus, 16:34:49 09/10/01 Mon

First off I'd hope someone would dust me before I got going cause the idea of killing someone is repugnent to me. If my moral compass were to change would I become evil or would I just think more about the potential of being a balance of both? Just as long as I don't become mean to my furry friends I would be very happy with a take out system for blood, and pretty much go on like I have before. More time to read.
[> [> Re: What would Rufus be like as a Vampire.............. -- Drizzt, 17:37:41 09/10/01 Mon

Rufus Cat loving peacefull vampire...

Buffy would invite you into her home, and give you a cup of warm pigs blood to drink while discussing ???(I don't know, maby some advice on boyfreinds...she could use a good one that doesn't go evil or to a vampire brothel)

Course Buffy is strong and does not need a boyfreind to define her. Dating and fun would be good stress relief though.
[> I would be Wisewoman's Thug -- cknight, 17:52:47 09/10/01 Mon

I'm a creative person, a artist and a nice guy normally but I feel the beast boiling below the skin. I love to play sports, I get road rage, and I hate....really hate waiting in the checkout line for a year and a half and always...always there's someone infront of me who needs a price check, at that moment ladies and thoughts are pure evil. ;)

So given that fact, without a soul I would work for Wisewomen since she would rule the world.
[> [> ck, I'd make you Chief Minion! -- Wisewoman, 18:26:23 09/10/01 Mon

I'd definitely be looking to hire underlings with a creative bent...

[> So what you're really asking is... -- Solitude1056, 19:32:06 09/10/01 Mon

What would I be like as a sociopath?

Supposing, ten years ago, someone had woken me up one morning & turned a switch in my brain & freed me up (or tied me down) into sociopathic state of being.

[I'm trying to remember, but I seem to recall a 'sociopath' is someone sans conscience, sans moral compass, no sense of right or wrong or interest in finding it out, cold-blooded killer, etc., and 'psychopath' is more of the compelled but out-of-touch-with-reality type. Someone set me straight if I've got those backwards.]

So, as I was saying, if it were ten years ago, then, yowser. I don't think there'd be much left of Congress, and the Supreme Court would've been gone inside a year. (I lived just north of Capital Hill at the time.) A lot of that has to do with the fact that from about seventeen to twenty-one, I was very much a "try it once, and do it a hundred more times if you liked it the first time" kind of person (but, uh, within moderation). A scrapper, a hooligan, a hellraiser, etc. Moving into the sociopathic vein would probably have just taken that live-every-moment to the extreme. Violence and death would be not for the idea of "ruling the world" or "making people pay" but simply because I could.

And yeah, I've mellowed. Duh. Ya gotta, or you burn out (especially if you were going brightly there for more than a few years). Having veered as closely to sociopathic tendencies as one can get (read: acting out) in this society without requiring substantial medication, I'd have to posit the idea that a great deal of my moral sense is now entirely within myself and not always in step with the society around me. So I'm not positive that external influences would necessarily render me a gleeful killer like I might've become, ten years ago - in other words, unless I chose to become cold to the rest of human society, I doubt it's possible to remove what I've so completely assimilated my own personal concepts of right and wrong. I'd end up like Harmony, yikes. But yeah: struggling to reconcile the new state of being against what I innately feel to be right and wrong, for me.

That makes me wonder: does that release, suggested by a (literary tradition) vampiric release really only have its full power within the metaphor of adolescence? Or perhaps the only time in our lives that we stray dangerously close to sociopathic (in the metaphoric sense, not the psychological sense) is when we're adolescent and struggling with the sense of "right" and "wrong" and not trusting anyone over thirty? So therefore, the idea of being without a conscience means we drag ourselves instinctively back to who we were as teenagers?
[> [> Re: So what you're really asking is... -- Drizzt, 20:57:38 09/10/01 Mon

OK, you would have been a really nasty specimine of a vampire if vamped ten years ago. Glad there are (hopefully) no real vampires in our realverse;)

If you were to become a vampire now you would theoretically be much less destructive in an evil sense because most of your aggressive tendancies have been explored. A wise/experienced person who is vamped would still be wise.

Interesting posts on vampire enlightenment & wisdom in the middle of this thread. Um, do not have a clear oppinion on the issue of "metaphore of adolescence" or "sociapathic tendancies connection to adolescent sense of right and wrong" Something that is related is "Seven stages of moral developement", I do not remember all of them and maby it is not seven...whatever. Anyway it starts at pure selfishness of a child without understanding of sharing to pure altruism and love that Buffy seemed to have in The Gift.

Need someone else to discuss these issues... If anyone can post the "Stages of Moral Developement" I would be glad to comment.
[> [> [> Re: So what you're really asking is... -- dream of the consortium, 12:08:25 09/11/01 Tue

I started a thread on the stages of moral development a while back. I assume it's somewhere in the archives?
[> [> [> [> Re: So what you're really asking is... -- Drizzt, 13:05:38 09/11/01 Tue

Thanks. Will check another day. Now I am watching the news RE terroism.

Wish terrorists read your thread, and understood the futility of vengance and the cowardice of terrorism.

[> Ah... To suck, or not to suck? -- Marie, 08:28:32 09/12/01 Wed

.. if I may be allowed to misquote Will S.

'Cos that would be my biggest disadvantage, seeing two sides to every question. So, while the vampire in me would want to bite, no questions asked, the human in me would be, like, er, hang on a minute, should I do this.....? Oh, OK, then. But wait...! Ad infinitum!

On the other hand...
[> [> Re: Ah... To suck, or not to suck? -- Drizzt, 13:41:31 09/12/01 Wed

What you describe is several scenes in The Crush. Spikes expression says without words what you meant...
Buffy Ressurection spoilers. -- Drizzt, 13:54:39 09/10/01 Mon

Posted this on a thread below...

Buffy vs Dracula. My theory is Dracula was not "real", IE he was created by the Monks. The reason he was created was to get a sample of Buffy's blood so that the Monks could create a genetically related sister for the life-force of the Key(in the Gift Giles said the Key is living energy) IMHO The Key IS Dawn's soul. End of the episode Joyce is complaing about being all alone now that Buffy has moved out and gone to college; a few seconds later she tells Buffy to bring Dawn with her to ??(I do not have a reccording of that episode, forgot exactly) and Buffy & Dawn both say "Mom!" So in a split second history is changed and Buffy has a sister.

Family? Dawn finds out she is the Key and Buffy gives her a speach about how it does not matter where she comes from, that Dawn really is her sister now. Both are bleading and Buffy says "It's Summers blood, just like mine" and then mixes her blood with Dawns... This is very similar to some American Indian rituals where a man is bonded as a blood relative by the exchange of blood. A brothers oath, but that is a different subject. Relivant issue is the ritual was symbolic and important for Buffy and Dawn.

The Gift Spike gives his explanation that "blood is life, of course it's her blood" RE the use of Dawn/The Key for the dimensional opening/nexus. Dawn's blood touches a weak point in space-time and the nexus opens. Dawn says "It's started, it has to have the blood" Buffy connects the blood link, "death is your gift", and "it has to have the blood", and in an act of faith gives her blood & life to presurve Dawn's.

Unknown and undefined if it is a real blood link or Buffy's faith that makes that option work. Either way; it did work.

So that was the background of my theory. I think that whatever ritual or ??? brings Buffy back it will have something to do with the blood link. And the reason that Joyce cannot be brought back is the blood link with her is a normal genetic one vs. the supernatural and sort-of empathatic link between Buffy and Dawn.

Sorry for anyone who read all this...I do not have a theory on exactly how it will be done, just think the blood link is the key to the KEY and Buffy(grin)
[> my fun theory -- JBone, 19:25:02 09/10/01 Mon

Since Buffy is now on the Star Trek network, she was transported by one of the Star Trek vessels moments before her demise. Her imprint was filtered out by the Heisenberg Compensators, `a la the 2 Will Rikers from ST The Next Generation. She is finally pulled from the transporter buffers in time to get the new season rolling. Live Long, and Prosper. Or as Kirk turned the saying on its ear in Star Trek 3 "The Search For Spock", "The good of the one outweighs the good of the many." It is useless to resist. Engage.

I don't have any real theory, I'm living "spoiler free" this year. And I'm putting my faith in Joss and Marti to do it right. Hopefully, I'm surprised, and I'll wish I had thought of it or realized it all along. I really don't want a cheap "Xena" resurrection.
[> [> Re: my fun theory -- Drizzt, 20:36:16 09/10/01 Mon

Loved the puns a la Star Trek. Wierd uniforms on the upn picture for the newest Star Trek series.

I will be spoiller free also; I could not resist the temptation and checked a spoiler by Wheelchair Hercules. Ahhhhhh! I do not like Hercules! Very annoying guy. My last spoiler exposure if I can help it.

No Spoilers from me or for me. Just that Joss has this habit of giving hints; wich allways make much more sense in hindsight. All my speculation was in regards to scenes in season five and how they might connect to the return of Buffy in a non-cheese-man way.

Joss is sneaky and I trust him to shock me;)
Harnessing the Key's Power for Good (spoilers for Fray #3) -- Kerri, 16:10:31 09/10/01 Mon

The monks knew that the key has the capacity to do a great deal of good. This seems to be why they wanted Buffy to protect it with her life; the didn't want it destroyed, in their opinion its existence is more important than Buffy's life.

I had wondered for a while what good the key could do, and it was only after reading fray that it made sense. It seems like Dawn is used to open the portal that will force the demons to leave this dimention.

Is this more or less the same idea that you all had or is there something else? Does this mean that Dawn won't really have any special powers? And while we're on the subject of Dawn why did she take the earings?!?!?!? Err! Sorry that just bugs me-I'm sure we'll find out soon. Anyway, sorry if this is totally random!
[> Re: Harnessing the Key's Power for Good (spoilers for Fray #3) -- ALLFORBUFFY, 11:59:33 09/11/01 Tue

If she can do that what about Angel and his destiny then. Also what about all the good demons and beings that are supernatural too. There wouldn't have a need for slayers or warriors of good anymore and that would be pretty pointless because then what are they fighting for then.
[> [> Re: Harnessing the Key's Power for Good (spoilers for Fray #3) -- Kerri, 13:44:58 09/11/01 Tue

If you read fray it is explained that no slayers are called after that point.
World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- Helen, 07:14:45 09/11/01 Tue

News just breaking here - huge sympathies and prayers, chants, whatever you prefer, coming at anyone who knows people who have been hurt or killed. Sitting in my office in Bristol, England and registering huge shock, can't imagine what it must be like over there.

[> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- cknight, 08:00:08 09/11/01 Tue

I can't believe it. I live in New Jersey across the river from the World Trade Center. I also want to send prayers out to everyone in that area. The Pentagon was attacked also by a plane. They're closing bridges and all important buildings in Jersey. A large plane just went down in Pittsburgh, PA they're not sure yet if its connected.
[> watching it on the news right now -- spotjon, 08:22:21 09/11/01 Tue

Both towers of the World Trade Center have collapsed after being hit by two airplanes. A plane crashed at or near the Pentagon, another near Pittsburg, PA, and another near Camp David. This is almost certainly a well-coordinated terrorist attack on the U.S. Just watching the towers collapse on TV, and seeing the smoke and dust cover New York sends chills up my spine.
[> [> San Francisco is pretty much shut down -- Liquidram, 08:32:57 09/11/01 Tue

The schools, bridges, and all military installations have been closed. Bless all of you and keep you and yours safe wherever you are.
[> [> [> Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- Masq, 08:54:18 09/11/01 Tue

[> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- Liquidram, 09:11:19 09/11/01 Tue

My cousins kids were sent home and said the bridges, highrises, etc. were closed.... second-hand info. You surely know better since you are there.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- Masq, 09:20:00 09/11/01 Tue

I didn't even find out what had happened until I got to work and logged on this board. The buses are running, the people at work are going about their business. I can see shutting down the airport for a bit--I plane that crashed was coming here. But otherwise, SF isn't affected except for TVs set to the news.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Not normal at all! -- Deeva, 09:28:16 09/11/01 Tue

I work Downtown near the Financial District and everyone is being sent back home (me too). All of the SF schools are closed, City Hall is closed as well are the surrounding streets.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not normal at all! -- fresne, 06:41:56 09/12/01 Wed

Yeah, I got to work and they sent me home. My housemate, who works in Oakland was sent home as well.
[> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- VampRiley, 09:26:21 09/11/01 Tue

I live just outside of Philly and go to school at Temple Ambler. They've closed our afternoon classes and my 11:40 a.m. class was canceled. I got an aunt who works like right next to the towers. I don't even know if she was in the building or not. I heard about one woman who had just gotten out of the Towers right before they went down.

Anybody see the film of people in Palestine cheering in the streets over what happened? I heard about it on my drive home.

[> [> [> [> [> Too bad. -- Voxpopuli, 10:25:28 09/11/01 Tue

Arab countries tried to pass a motion considering Israel a racist country due to the treatment they gave to Palestinians since Israel's independence, and the US threatened to leave the UNO conference if this motion was discussed, let alone, passed. For them the US could have stayed neutral, not backed up the Israeli and let UNO rule about it, but the US joined in the powerplay and, due to the US's undeniable power, put their aspirations down. Instead of threatening Israel, they decided to strike at the one country which has been supporting Israel throughout history: USA.

That was something one could easily predict. The unpredictable thing was : they had the courage to perform the most perfectly terrorist attack in history.

They, most Arab nations, are not strong enough to engage in an open war. Saddam made this mistake. If they can't hit with equal power, they hit with a weapon that is so insidious it sends shivers down my spine: terror. They seek to destroy the confidence of the whole nation, to make people paranoid, to kill at random and not in mass, but to create an environment where each citizen feels like he is a target.

What makes the picture even uglier is that terror is the weapon of the weak, and sending nuclear warheads to the area will not cease the threat of terrorist attacks, actually it would strengthen their will to cause terror, because in their minds the US, as a major Israeli ally, is partner in the attacks the Israeli makes against population armed with bricks and sticks. The men who kill themselves in those attacks with explosives truly believe they are fighting an evil that can kill their family, take the land they believe is theirs by right and by God, and so on.

Violence did nothing to improve this situation, and if this Bush guy thinks that a mere cowboy style pay back is going to stop them, he is dead wrong.

That's why I say, that we, as inhabitants of the same planet, humans we all, should stop and think about ways to make peace. Too much blood has been lost in all sides, it is too sad.

[> [> [> [> [> [> It's way too early to draw any conclusions regarding who and why... -- A8, 14:25:27 09/11/01 Tue is the time to do what we in the U.S. do best--we unify to deal with the immediate situation, we investigate, we draw conclusions (right or wrong--we're only human) and we act (also right or wrong). Now we're in the dealing with the immediate situation mode, so any talk beyond that (fingerpointing and reprisals) is counterproductive at this point. Sadly, the fact, as you pointed out, that so many people are so convinced that their god is behind them in whatever insane activities they choose to engage, makes certain that there will never be peace in the world so long as people continue to be motivated by superstition and greed. The sun will burn out before we ever evolve beyond that. It's up to the rational and compassionate among us to clean up everybody else's mess once again and carry on.

[> [> [> [> [> [> please let's not jump to conclusions -- anom, 14:38:50 09/11/01 Tue

We don't know yet who's behind this. Remember that poor innocent Jordanian who was pulled off a plane at the Oklahoma City airport after the Murrah bldg. was bombed because so many people assumed "Arab terrorists" must have done it? And he was just a normal guy there on business. I know it's tempting to make accusations--maybe it gives us an illusion of control to think we know more than we do. Vox, I'm glad to see your last few lines taking a different turn.

And yes, I'm OK here in NYC. I live at the other end of Manhattan, & looking out the window it looks so ordinary! My brother on the Upper West Side is fine too. My brother who's in the Air Force & lives in northern Va. left on a flight to Moldova this AM; haven't heard from him yet but there's no reason to think he's not OK. (He might not have been--he used to work in the part of the Pentagon that was hit & stopped by yesterday to check in before his flight!) Haven't heard from my sister-in- law directly but my other brother got an email from our niece that the rest of the family is also OK.

I think there'll be a lot of rumors flying around & things may sound a lot worse than they are. Outside the immediate area where this (what do I call it? nothing seems adequate) happened, there are more cops on the street than usual, but nothing approaching martial law. Even in the areas (directly) affected I think it's mostly emergency services directing operations. Nearby hospitals are getting overwhelmed & asking all dr's. & nurses to come in & help. Phones were slow this morning but a lot better now, although I'm still getting "all circuits busy" on some numbers. Various subway lines are coming back in service.

I'm now worrying about the long-term aftermath...don't even want to think about what the reaction will be. Hope everyone else out there is OK.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? It seems normal in my area in SF. -- VampRiley, 16:32:37 09/11/01 Tue


Me Aunt had the day off as did her boyfriend, so no reason for either of them to have gone into those buildings. In case anyone was wondering.

[> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- Lyra, 08:40:21 09/11/01 Tue

My thought and prayers are with u all right now.

Im completly stunned, and I think I can speak for everyone in the U.K. This is just incredible, so many lives lost, such a waste. I just hope we can find out who was responsible for this tragedy.

[> [> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- astar, 08:52:46 09/11/01 Tue

I would just like to say that my thoughts are with everyone who was involved in the attacks and who know people who were there.

like lyra i would like to say that i am totally stunned that anyone could do this. Everyone i've spoken to are totally shocked. I hope someone is caught and brought to justice. The magnitude of lost lifes is just so auful how could anyone do this?

[> [> thousands dead -- spotjon, 09:28:01 09/11/01 Tue

It's been estimated that thousands of people died in the World Trade Center towers once they had both collapsed. Very few made it out alive. I've been watching footage of people jumping out of the buildings just minutes before the collapse, falling nearly a hundred stories. I've never seen anything nearly this disturbing in all my life. I keep thinking that is can't be real, but then I remember that Lambert Airport here in St. Louis was shut down, and that makes it much more real to me. I keep hoping that nobody gets it in their head to attack Boeing.
[> Please post when you are able -- Wisewoman, 08:54:33 09/11/01 Tue

This has been such a devastating morning, it's difficult to know what to say, but please, if you have even a moment today to check in, just post to let us know you're okay if you're in the US.

There are no words...
[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- JoRus, 09:27:01 09/11/01 Tue

I'm in Seattle, and it's...chaotic, but fine. I've got two cousins I'm concerned for, one works out of the Pentagon and one at the Smithsonian, but I'm sure they're fine.
[> [> Posting -- d'Herblay, 09:43:10 09/11/01 Tue

[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Shiver, 09:58:29 09/11/01 Tue

I work ten mintues from Newark airport and can (could) see the WTC from our office window. We saw the smoke and were listening to the radio and watching when the second plane hit. We were too far to see the plane itself but we saw the explosion. An hour later they sent everyone home. Schools let out, banks are closed, all police and fire were called in to work even canceled vacations. My boss is in Manhattan at a meeting and we can't reach him on his cell (towers are jammed, or down). We could not call out from the office - a few people were able to call in. Some of our team members were on flights around the country leaving from Newark and we cannot reach them either. We just hope that as many people as possible got out in time. On the radio we were listening to, people from the second tower were calling in to report what was going on at the first tower. They said they had been asked to stay calm and STAY IN THE BUILDING because there was debris falling and people crowding the streets from the evacuation of the first. Then the next plane hit. Those people were told to stay put for their safety and suddenly they were all likely killed too ... There were fire crews in the buildings trying to get people out when they both collapsed. I had to take a Xanax just to get through the morning. This is unbelievable.
[> [> [> Humanity -- Voxpopuli, 10:38:22 09/11/01 Tue

The owner of the company where I work arrived from Miami yesterday evening. His wife is still in Miami, as well as his grandson and daughter. They are both safe.

Yet, most of the times he talks about the WTC he thinks about the hundreds of companies that went down, or how will the market wake up tomorrow, what will happen to the stock market, etc.

I understand his concern, he has a company to manage, we all depend on the business to keep our families, and stuff, but it was revolting to hear the guy talking ONLY about the loss of business and market, and not a word about the human lives lost, the prospects for peace (or of war) in the future and so on. I wonder how many humans are like this: so unhuman. Or is it me that am not human?

[> [> [> [> Re: Humanity -- Darrick, 10:46:41 09/11/01 Tue

Vox, the market and the economic effects are something you can get a handle on. The loss of life may be harder to grasp for some people. Maybe it's just a way of coping. Also, we are talking about the U.S after all, people assign the market a significance beyond the economic.
[> [> [> [> Re: Humanity -- Liquidram, 10:48:05 09/11/01 Tue

The Director of Technology of my company who is also one of my very closest friends called me this morning in tears.

First he told me of the disaster which I had not heard of yet, and then almost as a second thought, he told me that his baby daughter and first child had just been born. His heart was full and broken at the same time.

I will never forget, for the rest of my life, that his phone call, on which should have been the most wonderful day of his life, was so full of pain.
[> [> [> [> Re: Humanity -- Allison, 20:54:30 09/11/01 Tue

I was 7 blocks away from the WTC, at school, when all of this happened. People said that the building shook, although I didn't feel anything. In one class, we were watching the news-a live picture of the towers and one started to collapse. The TV went out, the lights flickered, and those close to the windows said they could barely see anything because the smoke blocked everything out. People were freaking out and some were crying.

About a half hour later, we were evacuated from the building and led uptown. As we were walking, someone made a joke and a friend of mine said sarcastically that it was good he could laugh about this. He responded that he was only joking around so he wouldn't freak out and panic.

Once we had stopped a safe distance away, my friends and I talked about how we were going to get home since public transportation had been shut down. I felt guilty about worrying about things like that while thousands were hurt or dying or fearing that someone they knew were, but the only things that I could say about this whole thing were that this was unreal/unbelievable/from a movie.

Bottom line-Maybe not thinking of the lives lost was part of a coping mechanism, maybe he was thinking of all those people, but did not know what to say, or maybe it was something else. Everyone deals with things in their own way and apparently your boss does not deal with it through talking, but please don't automatically think he didn't care about the other effects of this besides business.

btw, in case you were wondering, they reopened limited public transportation so I got home through a whole lot of transfers.
[> [> [> [> [> Sometimes it's laugh or cry -- Wisewoman, 21:52:47 09/11/01 Tue

Even on the chat board tonight, we fluctuated between the horror of what's happened and joking with each's a natural reaction to traumatic shock, you have to laugh or you fall apart...
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sometimes it's laugh or cry -- Drizzt, 01:27:43 09/12/01 Wed

Laughter is a coping mechanism. What is funny is pain in all cases. We feel the pain and need to deal with it in some way; pain is sadness, fear, confusion, etc.

Jokes make fun of what is perceived as a threat; racism, sexism, and other cultural differences can cause hostility or with a joke that both parties laugh at there can be a sort of camaradary(sp?) of humor and the positive mood-lifting endorphins of laughter.

A smile is contagious, a laugh is contaigious( even ironically when we have no idea what the joke is )

To make this relivant to Buffy; why do you think Buffy makes snide or humorous remarks while kicking but?

Simple answer is the writers want some humor in the scene. Philisophical answer is that Buffy faces death/danger easier with the use of humor.

Never ever feel ashamed of laughter because it helps keep you sane.

I need to laugh now, but nothing I have seen today has been funny to me. I am sure a laugh would cheer me up though.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Dedalus, 10:16:38 09/12/01 Wed

That's my advice on the laugh or cry thing.

It's funny ... I watched this stuff on the news until about midnight, and I had tears in my eyes. But once you can manage just a smidgen of detachment ... it's easy for those of us with no major political or religious affliations, the whole thing does become laughingly absurd. I don't think it even qualifies as stupidity.

As Wordsworth would say, here we are, "on a bright and breathing world," and really, there is nothing to fight about. Nothing. I just think we need to catch whoever is responsible, have Bush put them over his knee, and spank the living crap out of them. If they want to act like retarded two year olds, they can be treated like retarded two year olds. They're not brave ... they're not making a statement ... they're don't have a cause ... they don't have a reason. Of course, someone in our studio audience is saying, "Well, they think they do." To which I would simply reply, well, they're stupid.

The causes some have chalked up to religion. That's beyond intolerable from my point of view. Some have said not enough living space. I think that's worse. Blowing up buildings in a country halfway across the world is not going to change that. Either way, it's funny. There's nothing funny about it, you say?

Okay, imagine if you were an alien, and you were spying on human civilization from above. Imagine trying to explain the events down here. "Well, sir, see, there are these people. And then there are these other people. And one group got together and decided to kill a lot of the other people. And themselves in the process." "Kill themselves? What kind of sense is that?" "I don't know sir." "Well, what seemed to be the problem?" "As near as we can tell, these people flew airliners into the sides of buildings in order to appease what they believe to be some kind of omnipotent, invisible old man who lives in the sky." "Lives in the sky? And he's invisible, you say?" "Yes sir. Or so they believe." "So let me get this straight - we finally find another planet fortunate enough to develop life. And this is sophisticated, intelligent life. But instead of relishing the chance to be alive and one with the universe, they go around flying aircraft into the sides of buildings, killing their own species, in order to score brownie points with the invisible man who lives in the sky?"

Come on, if that isn't funny ...

I think we have found a most appropriate and fitting emblem for modern civilization - a paranoid lunatic flying an airliner into a building.

As George Carlin once predicted, this is merely the "slow circling of the drain by a once promising species."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Drizzt, 14:53:23 09/12/01 Wed

Dedalus you got a chuckle out of me. Thank you:-)

George Carlin is cool.

See him in the new Silent Bob movie? Jeese that was a ridiculas movie...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Dedalus, 21:03:54 09/12/01 Wed

Your welcome, buddy.

I personally thought Jay and Silent Bob, while ridiculous, was SO FUNNY. I laughed pretty much through the whole thing.

I just like to grant some off the wall perspective every now and again.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Read Some George Carlin -- Drizzt, 21:50:22 09/12/01 Wed

I love all of Silent Bob's films. Evil Dead trilogy. Douglas Adams. Spike & Mike festivals of animation...I see them every year in the local alternative theatre.

Off the wall perspective is good now and again? Check a thread called; "A Short Story" Written entirely by moi... Might be offensive for monotheists.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Drizz--can you repost the link? Can't find the web site -- d'Herblay, 22:08:30 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oops! It is a site in Britain; -- Drizzt, 22:16:33 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- dream of the consortium, 11:44:57 09/11/01 Tue

People here in Boston have been locked at their tv sets all day. Everyone had someone to check on - a friend in NY, someone on a flight. One of my best friends flew from Boston to LA last night, thank God. The shock and horror of this is just inexpressible. And there is a terrible sense of waiting, that if someone can pull this off, who knows what's coming next, the wildest possibilities could come true. I've worked in the World Trade Center before and in the World Financial Center next door. All I can think about are the crowds of people there on a weekday morning.
[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Rattletrap, 12:38:39 09/11/01 Tue

Thoughts, prayers, and Godspeed to those affected. Aside from sending state and federal employees home, life here in Oklahoma City continues more or less as normal, if anything on a day like today could be considered remotely normal. I'm still trying to fit this thing into my mind, I can't quite get a handle on it or something.

To anyone who wants to help: The Red Cross in NYC is asking for people all over the US to donate blood because there is a terrible shortage. This is relatively painless and takes only a half-hour or so (probably longer today, actually). I don't know if this applies for our transatlantic cousins or not.
[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- rowan, 17:01:10 09/11/01 Tue

Today has been devastating. It felt like a horrible nightmare from which I couldn't awake. I experienced a small taste of the fear that thousands endured today as our building (which is located directly behind Independence Hall) was closed & evacuated in the event that a 5th jet was still to land.

My prayers are with our entire nation and with all in the world who love freedom and peace....I hope this message finds all of you and your loved ones safe tonight.
[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- change, 17:56:10 09/11/01 Tue

I'm in Boston. Two of the planes that were highjacked came from here. One of the guys I know at work was almost on one. He was trying to switch his ticket to AA flight 11 to leave for LA a day early. They wanted an extra $150 to switch the ticket, so he decided not to. I haven't seen him today. I can't imagine how he feels. Talk about "There but for the grace of God go I"....

They evacuated the taller buildings in Boston. Our Governor spent the day in a bunker for security. Some of the malls closed down because they didn't want large groups of people to be in a single building. Things are very spooky here.

So this is what real evil is like....
[> [> Re: Please post when you are able/eye for an eye -- cknight, 19:40:52 09/11/01 Tue

I'm here but I feel kind of empty, mad. I may alone in this view here but once we discover the location of the people behind this they should be destroyed. This view makes me also wonder what happened to me, only a few years ago I was against the old eye for an eye thing.
[> [> [> Re: eye for an eye -- Malandanza, 10:12:03 09/12/01 Wed

"I may alone in this view here but once we discover the location of the people behind this they should be destroyed. This view makes me also wonder what happened to me, only a few years ago I was against the old eye for an eye thing.

"An Eye for an Eye Makes the Whole World Blind" Gandhi

I agree with Voxpopuli that U.S. imperialism is partly responsible for this tragedy. Too often the U.S. has intervened in the internal affairs of weaker countries -- the only means these countries have of redressing their grievances (given our veto power at the U.N.) is through terror. We need to return to our isolationist roots.

And there is plenty of blame to go around -- remember when Clinton bombed Afghanistan to get the DNA tests off the front page? (Of course, Reagan invaded Granada to make people forget about Beirut and Bush invaded Panama to show he wasn't a wimp). How about the international banks that give terrorists, ex-dictators and drug lords access to their money? It does seem as though we are reaping a bit of what we've sowed.

If the people responsible can be found and captured, they should be -- but to retaliate against a nation for the actions of a handful of extremists would be wrong -- and would only escalate the cycle of violence.
[> [> [> [> Re: eye for an eye?We can't turn our backs -- cknight, 18:29:12 09/12/01 Wed

We can't go back to just worrying about America. The world is more connected than ever. The only path is the one we're on now. What do you want to do when people are starving in some country because some crazy leader won't let the food be handed out. Like it or not I think we are major player in the world and we can't turn away from it. It's a double edged sword, if there's a big problem happening in the world a lot of times you get the people from that region asking for help. This is something I don't think we can away from. What other country in this God forsaken world would really help any another country. Just as Buffy learns that she couldn't turn away I feel we can't either. Yes I know that a lot of times we help out of selfish reasons, there's always good and bad in everything. But tell me should we really turn a blind eye to world? I don't think we can.
[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Cynthia, 21:31:44 09/11/01 Tue

I and my two sons are safe, physically. No loved ones were hurt, physically.

But I don't think my soul will ever be the same. I only pray my two young ones are too young to fully understand what has happen. And will, hopefully, have the distance of time, when they do.

My thoughts and prayers out to everyone.
[> [> Dazed in NYC -- Dariel, 22:47:20 09/11/01 Tue

This has been one bizarre day. I live in Brooklyn and never made it into Manhattan. I could see the huge cloud of smoke from my apartment window. I used to be able to see the towers from here. I'm several miles away from the WTC, but the smoke gave me a sore throat even at that distance.

Out on the streets between 11:00 am and 1:00 pm; just needed to get away from the TV and see some live people. People on the streets all had this pinched expression, a kind of hunted look. Many of them had walked miles, across the Brooklyn or Manhattan Bridge to get home. One of the neighborhood churches was handing out water to folks as they passed.

A couple of my friends work downtown, one very close to the WTC, but they're okay.

The awful part is the news people all day, and the mayor, trying to avoid what is so obvious--that thousands have died. They keep talking about "rescue efforts." I'm sure there are a few people still alive down there, but only a very few. Not sure I want to keep living here--I don't like being a target!
[> [> Re: Please post when you are able -- Slayrunt, 01:53:27 09/12/01 Wed

Alive and well, as well as can be.

My thought and prayers to the victims and their families.
[> It's been completely unreal. -- dan, 08:55:16 09/11/01 Tue

i've been watching the news since about ten minutes after the first plane rammed into the World Trade Center. Very, very scary. I remember immediately shivering and thinking, "There's *no way* that this is an accident." and in a few minutes, I was unfortunately proved correct.

My mom's overseas in Ukraine right now, and my dad's across the country at a conference. Fortunately, they're both okay - but my sister had called me in tears, frantic with worry for both of them, before we managed to get in touch with them.

i can't believe this is happening. It feels a million times worse than the Oklahoma City bombing.

much luck and safety wishes for everyone out there.

[> [> My prayers are with you -- Voxpopuli, 09:20:33 09/11/01 Tue

I've never really liked the NA foreign politics, being at the side that suffered so much. But dammit! Why??!! Who am I kidding, I know why, it is just that I... I just think that nothing justifies an act like this, nobody wins, everybody looses. Pain, sorrow, grief, hatred... it does not create anything constructive and good, only more hatred, more grief. And justice? What justice can be made right now? Nothing will bring people back to life, and it may be possible that a pay back with violence will only generate more violence like the one we are witnessing today. What should we all do? And I mean we ALL, inhabitants of this planet! May Oxal‡ ease your pain, and make your sorrow bearable, may his soothing energy make something good come from such pain in the long term, may the fear disappear, and ... darn it! Why is it so hard to live and let live, to understand each other, and try to dialog?! Why? Why does it ever have to end in such a waste of human lives?! This blood does not feed the earth, it feeds the vanity of leaders of both sides, and in the end ... there is only grief, loss, pain.

My prayers are with you, please keep posting sayig if you're alright, guys!

Voxpopuli - from Brazil
[> [> [> Re: My prayers are with you -- Drizzt, 09:38:39 09/11/01 Tue

Oh my god. Glad I checked in here first, and did not here about it from the TV.

All of this sympathy and wellwishing will help me preserve my faith in humanity when I actually check the news.

Going offline. Gonna watch the news right now.
[> Report from D.C. -- Solitude1056, 10:20:16 09/11/01 Tue

We thought it was a joke, this morning, when our boss walked in carrying a portable mini-TV and telling that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. Oh, please, we said, that's not funny. And then he just made this wierd sound and nearly dropped the TV. It took a second before he could manage the words that a second one had hit.

Then we got word that the Pentagon had been hit. Of all things, the Pentagon! I've grown up in the shadow of that building, the largest office complex in the world, if not the largest building in the world. Both of my parents have worked there at different times, and I used to spend days wandering in the sub-sub-basement where there's a full mall and stores and people who practically live like underground creatures... It's not comprehensible, I keep watching the TV (something I don't turn on but every now and then) and saying, no, no, that's not possible. The Pentagon's walls are two feet thick of triple-reinforced concrete, poured in one huge slab. The floors are two feet thick concrete, with another triple-reinforcement. It's not real, watching the tape of the towers collapsing, it's beyond unreal.

The cell lines around here are gone, down, out of use; the only contact is strangely through email. DC is evacuating. I can only imagine that NYC is ten times worse, a whole city, fleeing. It's inconceivable. My mother works at Ft. Myers, a stone's throw from the Pentagon. Three weeks ago, they had a bomb scare & evacuated. This morning, when word came in that the Pentagon was attacked, they told everyone to turn OFF their computers, take their stuff, and leave the building. Before anyone could return, the commandant of the base announced that no one was allowed back into the buildings - go home. And if you live in DC, go home somewhere else. My sister's in DC, working about five blocks from the Capital area, but somehow managed to get word to my mom that she's okay and staying put just north of the city. Many people are avoiding the metro for fear of being trapped underground, and two of the bridges are shut down, like in NYC. The tunnels are one-lane, since the second lane is being kept open by drivers for ambulances & other emergency vehicles.

Many of us in the suburbs are heading to the hospitals. Why, you ask? If you're in the greater NYC area, or the greater DC area, go. GIVE BLOOD. They need it, any blood type, doesn't matter. GO. I've got O-, and I'm leaving in a bit once I hear from the last of my family. I'm an hour out of the city but they need every bit they can get, I saw ambulances and helicopters heading towards Arlington while I was en route home. (Most of the malls, schools, and companies have all shut down & sent people home.)

One last note about the Pentagon: eye witness reports are coming in that the plane came in a strange angle, as if the pilot was trying to steer the plane to the building's side rather than straight at it. And ironically, fortunately, the plane impacted the sole section of the Pentagon that's currently being renovated, so the offices were (for the most part) empty - but there are definitely a high number of deaths in the Pentagon, and the majority of those in the two towers are also believed gone, plus (at last count) a hundred and sixty-four passengers, crew, and pilots of the United and American Airlines flights.

There was an old man at the gas station when I stopped for gas, and his comment was that it was another Pearl Harbor, but ten times, a hundred times worse. That's not an image I want to keep in my head, but it keeps coming back. There are snipers around the Washington Monument, and around just about every Federal building in D.C. They can't get the fire under control at the Pentagon. The two towers are gone. I know I'm rambling, but I also know that the flight out of Dulles - my back yard - is probably carrying people I work with, people I know. And my mother's praying hard that the people she works with, who were at the Pentagon today for a major meeting, are okay, but it's impossible to find out because the phone carrier stations are crammed. Curiously, a majority of the cable stations are shut down as well, with bulletins to switch to the local news stations for information. Those stations' headquarters are in NYC. I wonder.

So... the only other thing is that they're dancing in the streets in Palestine, and I have to wonder: when does it stop, and who will finally have the gumption to say: there's got to be a better way to figure out religious differences, political differences, cultural differences. There's just got to be some other way than this.

It's nauseating to see the suicidal bombers in the Middle East, and I don't care which side they're for, I don't believe that this is the way to solve the issues. Nor do I believe the violence in Ireland, on either side, is ever justified. And now it's on my homefront, and I don't believe any more or any less than I did last week that violence, as a route to a solution, only creates more problems. It never solves them.

...and in case you missed that last part: go to the local hospital, and GIVE BLOOD. They're needing every bit they can, and if you're well enough to check in, and you're in the metro areas for either city, you're well enough to go give blood. Do it, don't wait.
[> From Colorado -- Dichotomy, 10:46:38 09/11/01 Tue

Even here, some government buildings and the businesses nearby are being closed for the day. DIA is shut down for at least the next 24 hours. My best friend's husband is in business in NYC and we can't reach him. I feel sick and helpless and wish I could do something for the victims. If anyone hears of anything that those of us who aren't near the tragedy can do to help, let us know. And my thoughts are with all of you who are uncertain if friends and family are okay.
[> Re: World Trade Centre and Pentagon -- Shaglio, 11:47:18 09/11/01 Tue

I'm just a little north of Boston. My coworker's father was flying out of Logan Airport to LA this morning. She was terrified all morning because she couldn't get in touch with him, but eventually he checked in to say he was alright. I can't believe that, in this day and age with all our precautions and preventions in place, so many planes could be hijacked. I'm stymied by these horrific events.
[> From Florida, this 11th day of September, 2001 -- Humanitas, 13:17:18 09/11/01 Tue

Not much in the way of happenings here, thank the gods. Florida is pretty far off the terrorist radar. Our government and airports are closed, of course, but that's about it.

Oh, and Disney shut down, 'cause terrorists just hate Mickey.

Thanks to everyone who's posted to check in. I worry about y'all as much as any of my face-to-face friends.

I have a very dear friend who works about a mile from the WTC. There was a message from her mother on my machine when I got home - Christy's ok, she's been evacuated to another part of the island of Manhattan to spend the night. Reports are that New Yorkers are handling things as well as possible. No sign of looting, or anything. I post this to give hope to all my fellow posters who may have friends or family in Manhattan.

May the gods be with us all.
[> from a newsdesk in S.C. -- Wilder, 13:51:18 09/11/01 Tue

I'm a reporter in South Carolina right now and it's been a frenzy here, talking to folks who had friends or relatives in N.Y. or D.C.

We're all in a state of shock; just punched out an afternoon extra edition.

Was in a Wal-Mart in a small rural town trying to get comments for a local reaction when there was a moment of silence announced over the intercom.

So sad. So very very sad.
[> Sending out prayers and sympathy to all those affected -- Kerri, 13:51:51 09/11/01 Tue

There's not much to say right now other than to send my sympathy to everyone. I live in NY and it was so unreal. Everyone was trying to reach family members who live or work in the city and everything honestly felt like it was from a bad movie. It's just so terrible and tragic. Once again my thoughts and prayers are with all those touched by the attacks today.
[> Re: Columbus, Ohio -- mundusmundi, 15:18:03 09/11/01 Tue

All calm here. (Not much for targets -- unless you count the Santa Maria replica in the harbor.) Funny, we just talked about terrorism in the last day of Civ 3 class (Modern History) a couple weeks ago. Not in any way diminishing today's tragedy, but what's amazing isn't that terrorist attacks happen, but that they don't happen more often. (Note that I'm defining terrorism in the general sense here and am not automatically equating it with Arabs and/or Muslims, unlike a few chest- thumpers on a local radio talk-show.)

I have a good friend teaching on board a military ship rounding South America. Can't even imagine what it must be like there.

*Sigh.* And it was such a beautiful day.
[> I'm mad as hell -- JBone, 16:00:24 09/11/01 Tue

How DARE these terrorists attack my country? I don't know how the rest of the world sees America, but it means a hell of lot to me. There must be retaliation, it must be strong, and it must be swift. And if it's massive, so be it. And if the terrorists are in fact from a foreign country, that countries government better hand them over or suffer some consequences of their own. I mean war. You don't mess with the bull without getting the horn.

There will no such thing as a safe harbor for these terrorists. They will not only be hunted by the US, but by all those with massive amounts of money who escaped the WTC. I can't even imagine the bounty that these people will pony up. The humane execution of lethal injection is too good for these bastards. They need a Mussolini style execution. You want a reckoning, HELL'S coming with us.
[> This just got a lot closer to home -- d'Herblay, 17:06:50 09/11/01 Tue

I've been wondering why Cleveland was so panicked, evacuating downtown when we can't be that high a priority. I thought it had to be the Delta airliner from Boston to LA that was grounded at Hopkins International. The I saw animation of the flight path of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.
[> [> Re: d'Herblay -- Dedalus, 17:17:28 09/11/01 Tue

Glad you're okay. And, if I may turn to more perhaps trivial concern - that was a great essay. I haven't had a chance to tell you this so far.
[> [> [> Even more trivial concern -- d'Herblay, 22:20:54 09/11/01 Tue

Thanks! It means a lot, both coming from you and coming on a day like today.

Which is now yesterday, here. I must sleep.
[> [> Re: This just got a lot closer to home -- Wisewoman, 17:19:42 09/11/01 Tue

That animation is absolutely horrifying. I can't help but think what must have been going on during that flight--it seems so erratic--do you think perhaps it was heading back toward a target on the Eastern Seaboard? That abrupt turn south at Cleveland, no wonder people panicked there.
[> [> [> Camp David, actually. -- Solitude1056, 17:43:49 09/11/01 Tue

They're not sure, since (obviously) it didn't get there, but that's the current assumption. Hard to tell. Camp David, after all, was one of the locations of the original PLO-Israeli peace accords (along with Dayton). It's also known as a presidential retreat, though unoccupied at this time.
[> [> Flight path of fourth plane? -- Drizzt, 17:23:39 09/11/01 Tue

That was bizzar. They could have hit a target in Cleveland. Overflew Pt(is that Pitsburge?), could have hit a target in Pt. Crashed in a rural area.

Whatever the reasons that plane did not kill more than the passengers, I am glad. Sure you are even more releived than me since you lived in the area & that "hits close to home" issue.

The tragedy is bad enough for me and I am on the west coast; I feel it as a violation of the US, but not my city and home...
[> [> [> Re: Flight path of fourth plane? -- Humanitas, 18:02:59 09/11/01 Tue

Scary thing here was that the news initially described the crash as "just outside of Pittsburgh." I have family in Pittsburgh, and family of whom I am particularly fond, at that. I was pretty upset, until I saw the maps.
[> [> Re: struggle for the plane -- mundusmundi, 05:43:55 09/12/01 Wed

The paper this morning suggests that some of the passengers may have revolted during the flight, perhaps accounting for the erratic pattern. "We're all gonna die," one passenger said to his wife from a cell phone. "But three of us are going to do something about it."
[> My thoughts are with you all tonight -- LadyStarlight, 18:19:09 09/11/01 Tue

[> [> Re: My thoughts are with you all tonight -- Nina, 20:34:41 09/11/01 Tue

Ditto here! I got the news pretty late today. I never watch the news out of principle and a friend of mine had to tell me the news. She defined it as being the 3rd world war and I was too shocked the rest of the day to watch any news. I finally did find the courage to opened the tv and see the horrible images display before my eyes. My heart is with you all. My prayers go to all of you. Thank God you all seem to be fine.

I have studied World War one and two in school for years. 3 years actually (it was a French school and they liked the subject). I never got it. I learned the dates and I passed the tests and I learned names and cities and battles. But I've never got it. In April I saw the preview to "Pearl Harbor". I was going to see "Bridget Jone's Diary", have a little good time. The preview floored me. I remembered. December 7th 1941. That was a date I had cemented in my brain. It was only a date. The United States declares war to Japan. End of the fact. 94% in my test. What's next? Geometry? When I saw the preview I cried my eyes out like there were no tomorrow. I didn't see the fact that it was a movie. I saw what I never got before. I saw people dying. People afraid. I saw horror. That's what I feel again today.

My mother reminded me earlier that peace begins with ourselves. Then we give it around to our family and extend it to our friends. Our friends all have a family and other friends and peace can only come this way. Not with violence. Not with vengence. So let's all have peace in our hearts. May love guide us.
[> Anyone heard from... -- Solitude1056, 20:49:03 09/11/01 Tue

OnM? Cleanthes? Ryuei?
[> [> Anyone who hasn't posted - just a subject line please! -- Helen, 07:34:16 09/12/01 Wed

I was just checking in, having been out of the office this morning, to see how many people have managed to post to say they're okay. Not knowing where you all live, its hard to know if any of you were in any danger. So anyone who hasn't already thrown in their two penny worth, please let us know you're okay.

The reaction here in England is just stunned. Having the advantage of Sky I was able to watch CNN as well as our news channels - the whole thing was unbelievable. It happened at about 2.30pm BST, so all afternoon the internet was just grinding to a halt, then people in London were calling through to say they had been evacuated just in case .. we could only imagine the suffering over there. And still no nearer answers.
[> [> [> Still stunned -- Cactus Watcher, 07:48:39 09/12/01 Wed

For those not in the USA. Give us a little time to come back on-line. The Internet ties up phone lines that were needed yesterday. Be patient, especially with our friends in the Northeast. Your thoughts are deeply appreciated.
[> [> Re: Anyone heard from... -- Andy, 09:32:13 09/12/01 Wed

Just checking in. I live and work in the general DC area, so I'm not terribly far from this stuff, but I haven't had any problems, and everyone else I know is fine too. I just haven't been paying much attention to the internet. Since yesterday I've seen a lot of hysteria that just made me want to shut the whole thing off for awhile (I think I got sick of it all after about the 10th time I found out that World War III had started...).
Latest News on terrorism... -- Drizzt, 10:31:58 09/11/01 Tue

Horrible! Tragedy! I feel sick...

This thread is for updates as they come in; discuss the live news coverage.

Watching news for half hour.

1. World Trade Center; both towers collapse, 50 thousand worked there, at least 10,000 dead...and would have been many more if the planes had impacted midday. Smoke from World Trade Center is visible from 220 miles away on the International Space Station.

2. Pentagon; At least 50 dead, 100 to 150 feet of one side of pentagon totally obliterated, most of Pentagon underground...will continue to function as our primary (official) intelligence center.

3. Other planes & bombs; just one small plane crash is a tragedy...these terrorists used our commercial and trusted means of transportation as a weapon to terify us. This is more frightening than a suite-case bomb that is left with a timer...these attacks had to have fanatics that would sacrifice their lives and civilians in suicide/kamikazi attacks.

4. Source of Attack; unknown.

5. Updates on security measures; president is safe and hidden, all commercial flights cancelled, martial law probably in areas surrounding attacks, thousands sent home, work cancelled, schools closed.
[> Re: Latest News on terrorism... -- dan, 10:51:40 09/11/01 Tue

This is a useful link for piecing together everything that's happened so far that's been confirmed: A constantly updating Chronology of today's events from CNN.

I can't believe it, i can't believe it. all i can do is continue to watch the tv with nausea in my gut and tears in my eyes.

[> [> Re: Latest News on terrorism... -- Drizzt, 11:03:29 09/11/01 Tue

Dan "All I can do is continue to watch the tv with nausea in my gut and tears in my eyes." I feel the same. I mourne for the pain, terror, and despair of the dead and all who knew them. I will be watching in sick facination all day; better to do something else, but I would not be able to think about anything else.

Thanks for the link, I will go make myself more upset by checking it:(
[> Re: Latest News on terrorism... -- Drizzt, 13:00:44 09/11/01 Tue

Oh my god! News keeps showing the hole in one Tower, then the crash of the plane into the second Tower, then the collapse.

On the news that sequence is shown in a minute or so; it is so quick that I could not relate to it. But checked the timeline and it was a time period of an hour and fourty five minutes; I have this horrible image of all the people in those buildings panicking and confused for almost two hours before they died...

Moan. I feel worse now.
[> Plane diverted to Whitehorse, Yukon? -- Wisewoman, 13:03:07 09/11/01 Tue

We've had one news report within the last 1/2 hour (12:00 - 12:30) that a suspected hijacked plane was being escorted to a forced landing in Whitehorse, where it would be boarded by police and military.

Haven't been able to find any more about it. Does anyone know what's going on there? Apparently the plane was headed for Alaska, but details are really sketchy. Apparently it was a Korean passenger jet? RCMP are still treating it as an hijack situation, and the plane is apparently on the ground now.

Vancouver Airport has been shut down except for incoming international flights that are being diverted from the US. We're expecting upwards of 6,000 passengers within the next few hours, and they're asking the public to volunteer beds for them for the night because the hotels near the airport are already at capacity with travellers who were unable to leave. Even this far away from the attacks, there's a fair bit of chaos. All the downtown embassies were evacuated this morning, which caused a major traffic snarl in Vancouver. I still can't believe this has happened, and I worry more and more about what is still to come.
[> [> Re: Plane diverted to Whitehorse, Yukon? -- Drizzt, 13:16:40 09/11/01 Tue

Do not know anything about the plane you mentioned.

Regarding what is to come. Promises by our polititions of justice & or revenge(allready started), some type of retalitory action by the US military, big speaches and rehtoric by polititions...

The tragedy today is the worst terrorism in history. The tragedy in the larger perspective is this was an act of violence against the spirit of the US for perceived or real crimes committed by the US(note these "crimes" might only be crimes in the perception of the terrorists...)

US will retaliate. This will further anger the terrorists. I do not see a good solution, and I am glad I am not responsible for the hard decisions of National Security as I am too much of an idealist to be a practical and ruthless military decision maker.
[> [> From the Globe and Mail -- d'Herblay, 13:17:22 09/11/01 Tue

(Do you know what the only recognizably Canadian news source Matt Drudge links to is? Muchmusic.)

From the Globe and Mail:

KAL jets escorted to Whitehorse landing Tuesday, September 11, 2001

By STEVEN CHASE Globe and Mail Update Origination unclear, but Canadian air force treats them with caution Ottawa - Two Korean Air Lines planes - one of which declared an emergency and was being treated as if it might be under the control of hijackers - have been diverted to land in Whitehorse under escort from what are believed to be both Canadian and U.S. fighter jets, CBC said.

That's according to Yukon Premier Pat Duncan who spoke to the Globe and Mail today.

It is not clear where the aircraft came from or whether they are connected to the bombing attacks in New York or Washington.

Reports said the jet fighters that escorted the Korean planes were CF-18s.

I'm going to for a few minutes.
[> [> [> Can't get into Ivyweb chat from work... -- Wisewoman, 13:22:05 09/11/01 Tue

..but I'll check in there tonight when I get home, if anyone wants to chat. That'll be about 5:00 pm Pacific Time.
[> [> [> [> Got ya........ -- Rufus, 16:23:44 09/11/01 Tue

I should be around
[> Air China passenger jet forced down at Vancouver Airport -- Wisewoman, 13:41:23 09/11/01 Tue

We've just had a radio report that an Air China (?) jet, escorted by an American fighter jet, has been forced to land at Vancouver International Airport and is being escorted through the mess of planes already on the tarmac to a hanger, where it will be boarded by police. Not sure what the rationale on this one is.

The two planes in White Horse as well, someone just said one of them was low on fuel and that was why the emergency call went out.
[> Re: Collapse of Building 7 -- Drizzt, 14:43:22 09/11/01 Tue

Rescue workers were not permitted to search in the rubble of the Twin Towers because of fear that Building 7 could collapse and kill more people.

Valid and good judgement because Building 7 just collapsed. They had seven hours to evacuate it; likely no casualties from that collapse. Caused by explosions, fire, and big chunks of one of the Twin Towers. From how far away the building was any debree that hit it would have fallen 300 to 500 feet before impact...

Minor point; been to New York, seen the Towers in person...WOW they are gone! Wow today we lost lots of human life and a symbol of America;( Given the option I would choose to keep the life over the symbol, but we lost both.

If you have not seen the Towers in person, just think of how small the 757 was in comparison to them...
[> Bombing in Kabul, Afghanistan -- Wisewoman, 15:27:07 09/11/01 Tue

At this point, we are being told that Kabul, Afghanistan is under attack and is being bombed, but we do not know by whom. One suggestion is that it may be the Afghani opposition in the civil war taking this opportunity. Of course, the other possibility being tossed out is that the US has already begun bombing in retaliation...hmmm, nothing confirmed or denied by the US on Canadian news as yet, but it does seem that would be a little precipitate, unless they are very, very sure that Al- Quaeda, Bin Ladin, and/or the Taliban are involved...

And this day just keeps getting worse.
[> [> According to CNN, and Rumsfield--No US involvement -- d'Herblay, 15:51:24 09/11/01 Tue

[> Ashcroft: terrorists armed with knives -- d'Herblay, 16:20:47 09/11/01 Tue

and box cutters only on at least two of the flights, according to AG John Ashcroft.
[> Re: ATLTC .... -- Dedalus, 17:28:31 09/11/01 Tue

Here in Atlanta, wow. Just amazing. I couldn't believe the news this morning. It did seem so surreal. And they really played it up, as they inevitably will do. Flip on the TV and "ATTACK ON AMERICA," with the background of New York in flames. They made it sound like World War III or something. If that fourth plane had made it to the White House - which they may have been headed too - and had taken it out ... THAT would have been incomprehensible. All of Atlanta is pretty much shut down. Airports, schools, malls, all big buildings. No traffic this afternoon on the interstates, which was eerie as hell, considering our traffic situation.

But, all threads do led to Campbell. There's been a lot of finger-pointing today, but most of the terrorist advisors and so forth are all leaning toward not secular bombers, but religious fundamentalists. And this got me thinking. Remember in the Power of Myth, when Campbell was talking about the horror of the Middle East, and how everyone has been at war for centuries for no other reason than "they have three different biblical names for the same god"? I mean, that's it. If people had listened to Campbell ... I swear, it just pisses me off. People dying for antiquated nonsense. I mean, this is the TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY. When are we going to get it together?

Oh well, pardon my rant. The President is coming on in a few minutes. That was a good PR move, going to the White House. Good to know ya'll are okay.
[> [> Maybe their "god" is punishing them for their inability to see past the symbols... -- A8, 19:25:45 09/11/01 Tue

..If they would just leave us out of their idiotic fight.
[> [> [> They can't: the US backs Israel up, and Israel is part of the big mess. -- Voxpopuli, 05:11:21 09/12/01 Wed

Their problem is not the US, but Israel and THEN the US, because the US backs Israel up. Religion and politics go hand in hand in the middle east, there is not way you can separate the issues, because if you do it, you will not be able to understand their frame of mind. Israel would not be such a great problem, if the big nations of the world chose to solve the problem, like they did for Israel when the the State of Israel was created. There would still be conflicts, but they'd have a different way of resolving themselves. I wonder how Americans see the problems in the middle east. We get the news from various sources and we can distance ourselves from the conflict, so that our views tend to be less biased. Unfortunately guys, you are more involved than you ever thought. And, sorry for the ones who voted on Bush, he's handled the problems, even the US posture in the latest UNO meeting over racial issues, very clumsily. Things did not have to get this far, but they did. A missile shield? BS. Nobody needs a missile to create horror, a feeling of uncertainty and create havoc in the market. And there is no such thing as complete safety. But big guns make one feel all manly and powerful. Yes, but I doubt one will feel so powerful after getting a big kick on the balls. That's what happened. So, instead of going after blood, America should prove more intelligent and go after a more definitive solution to such problems, and so far it means seeking dialog, seeking peace and understanding between nations. Violence creates violence equal or worse, but if you do things with common sense, and a love wish, things tend to set down a lot better for all parties involved. Like in a marriage, isn't it?

Guys, do not get mad right now. Let things settle down and think of definitive solutions, peaceful ones.


[> [> [> [> Actually, I believe their problem is the savagery inherent in their fundamentalist zealotry... -- A8, 11:02:15 09/12/01 Wed

..If Israel never existed, they would find someone else to kill, most likely they would turn on each other (as in Afghanistan). Like the problems in the Balkans and the troubles in Northern Ireland, these disputes are largely motivated by their own perverse interpretation of ancient superstitions fueled by greed, envy, and primitive tribal politics. Since there will always be zealots, there can never be real peace in the world, and all the prayers and nice thoughts cannot change that fact. Providing people with land will not bring peace either, since there will always be someone dissatisfied with the piece of the pie they were given, and there will always be someone who will twist even the most benign of religious beliefs to exploit the dissatisfaction. Reasoned dialogue and negotiation only works when you are dealing with reasonable people. If the people you negotiate with believe that you are evil and have no right to exist, all your optimism and the faith in basic human decency are just an invitation to your own extermination.

I'm not being critical of fundamental religion per se, but when its exercise results in the death of even one person, it has crossed the line from legitimacy to criminal cult. Yesterday's acts were immoral, inhuman, and the exercise of criminal cult beliefs. The people who committed these acts and anybody who supported or aided them have forfeited the benefits of human rights and should be treated with the same cold and emotionless detachment as we would treat vermin.

Reasonable people the world over, that is, those who peacefully exercise whatever moral or religious system they hold true, should unite and develope strategies of containment against those who exist only to destroy the peace and those who help them. I love pacifism as much as the next guy, but this is the Realverse here--"why can't we all just get along is nothing but a pipe dream" as far as I'm concerned. As much as I respect the idealism expressed by many on this board, I'm a realist myself. It would be nice if this board were a microcosm of the world. Being able to express differing opinions in an atmosphere of mutual respect without fear of physical violence (or even violent talk) is truly a rare and beautiful thing. So while I'm always hopeful and willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, there's just too much history that supports my cynicism. Turning the other cheek is a wonderful concept, in theory. In practice, you tend to lose both cheeks (high and low), your life, your family and your soul.

[> [> [> [> [> There is no essential evil, there are things that hurt like hell. -- Voxpopuli, 11:44:23 09/12/01 Wed

Zealots? If you go deep in the history of the Muslim, you would see that in many ways they represented a much more forward take on religion than the Christians. During the middle ages, the progresses in mathematics, astronomy, optics, etc, were all fostered in Muslim countries who were as fanatics as the nation next door, but whose fundamental stones were set at the development of humanity as masters of this planet under the sacred rule of God, of one God. In this sense, they do have a lot in common with Jews, for many years, Jews and Muslims lived in reasonable harmony. Christians often posed a problem because of the Holy Trinity Concept, and later because of the Saints. For them it is polytheism and it is something inherently evil. From this standpoint Muslims and Christians have the same tendency to proselytise. Part of their creed is to spread the word of their religion to the world, because this is the One Truth. Christians and Muslims, do not believe in Truth as something constructed (or perceived), they believe in an essential truth, as well as in good and evil as solid concepts according to a written law. After a time, and Jewish people can speak for that, some religions tend to rise above a notion of territory. So you are first Jewish, second you are American. Same with some Muslims. Through religion, national barriers are broken and people tend to have an ultimate identification factor: their creed which backs up their view of the world. If this religion is attached, by history or myth, to a stretch of land, then this piece of ground is part of their identity. This is why the Jews never gave up the region where Israel is today, and why Palestinians never gave up that same stretch of land, and why Muslims have such attachment to Jerusalem. The land, through history, myth and religion, is part of how they see themselves. It is as visceral as that. Are they zealots because they are fighting for their own identity? I do not think so. Who draws the limits between a rightful religion and a criminal cult? It is hard to say, because we'd stumble on culture, and the clash of different world views. I'm not really into offering the other cheek, I am totally in favour of finding solutions as peaceful as possible, based on dialog and understanding. When people turn on an eye for an eye mode, the most probable result is that everybody will be blind in the end ( thanks, Mahatma!). I am not a pacifist either, I am just practical and very pragmatic. Cynical perhaps. Fundamentalism is born out of lack of dialog, and I doubt it will ever end, be it Muslim or Christian fundamentalism. Same thing with tribalism, it will always exist in a way or another, at least if we see the issue from this precise moment in time. As much as I hate fundamentalists of any religion, we must find a way to deal with them. We live in a world where identities are melting, and getting ever more complex, such issues become a lot more shocking in such world, and deserve to be discussed openly in order to make this world a less violent place. But I understand it is hard for people who are angry (and have all the right to feel angry) to listen to someone saying they should calm down. In the end, all that many people want, is to kill the Arab next door as a mean to let off the anger. Too bad it will not help at all. It did not help before, it will not help now.


[> [> [> [> [> [> They are zealots because their intent is to kill everyone who does not believe as they do... -- A8, 12:15:58 09/12/01 Wed

..I'm only talking about the terrorists (most likely the Bin Laden cult) involved in yesterday's activities and similar acts of terrorism in the past (and their aiders and abettors). Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc, have every right to believe what they believe, to love and hate who they choose to love and hate, but when any of them uses his/her beliefs to harm others (and I don't mean merely offending someone's sensibilities), they have become a part of a dangerous criminal cult. Their beliefs at that point become irrelevant, and those who they wish to destroy have the right to defend themselves by any means. There is no "dealing" with violent fundamentalism unless you convert and that's no solution at all. Like I said, the proper way to deal with their violence is with a specific, consistent, cold and detached response against those known to be involved in the planning, aiding, and execution of violent acts. Anybody who uses tragedies, like those which occurred yesterday, as an excuse to commit prejudicial acts against innocent, peaceful citizens should be treated with the same cold detachment as the terrorists and their supporters. There will always be anarchists, racists, etc. who will try to exploit these situations, but they cannot be tolerated either.

I ask you, how do you propose we deal with Bin Laden and his ilk? He has proclaimed a Jihad against all Americans. He has openly and proudly called for the extermination of all Americans wherever they live or travel. If you know of some way to negotiate with that, you deserve sainthood or elevation to some sort of deific status. I might even be convinced to become a believer at that point.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sainthood is not my cup of tea... -- Voxpopuli, 12:43:40 09/12/01 Wed

Bin Laden, if it was him alone, or with other groups, are not to be dealt with using just nice words. They are the ones who need to be stopped, but the point is stopping them without making them martyrs of their cultural identity. This guy probably isn't in it for idealism only, he makes money and creates a power play for himself from it, claiming to represent something bigger than him. Take this identification away, and he'll be just another criminal, his reasons will not be considered as fair by the group. I am not an expert in politics, no matter how fond I am of it. Better heads should take of it. But in my opinion, guys should go into deeper study of the cultures these guys stem from, and find a way of dialog that could isolate them from the majority of the people. If you can make them odd to their own, then you can step in and erradicate them, without making unnecessary enemies in the process. Start a resolute peace process, try to mediate peace, not Israeli interests, use wisely the Veto power (not like you guys did at the last UNO meeting over racial issues...), review the foreing policy towards other countries without forcing them into ridiculous market ideas (ex: Brazil hates Free trade area of the Americas, there is not advantage for us in the deal, just for you guys). "Hunt down and punnish them" is good for guys with excess of testosterone and short- sight. Take a deeper course of action, fostering intercultural and economical relations with those countries is the best way to eliminate those guys. I guess the one big problem with it, is the Taliban government. They are pretty irrational. Isolation is the best policy with them, but impose no embargo, cause you will only strengthen from the inside. After all Saddam Hussein was a spawn of the messed up American policies in the middle-east, and now, the old American enemy, that is Iran, is much easier to deal with than Iraqui, which was a former ally. You guys supported Saddam without realising his role in the bigger picture. If you guys go savagely after Bin Laden, you'll make a big mistake. Mark my words: this guy is a minority, strengthen relations, make cultural exchanges, do not take Israel's side do blindly, and sooner or later Bin Laden will fall in your lap, and the terrorist threat will be much smaller. It is not offering the other cheek, it is taking the roundabout way when the straight one is not good. Is it a 100% formula? No, it isn't, but at least it is an idea that does not go into a blind revenge and tries to solve the problem in the long run.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Unfortunately, a large undercurrent in the middle east population believes the US to be... -- A8, 12:58:27 09/12/01 Wed

..Satan incarnate. Consequently, there is really no possibility of cultural exchange with them. Even the moderate governments in the Middle East have no idea how to deal with them. This isn't like the US and Soviet Union--two nations with differing ideologies in a state of mutual mistrust, but ultimately capable of appreciating the value of life (the common point for negotiation). We are talking about suicidal lunatics who are convinced by their religious leaders that to kill themselves and take out as many Satanic Americans as they can in the process is a saintly act. They are born martyrs. There is nothing we can do good or bad that will change their opinion of us. Therefore, the best we can do is defend ourselves and assist those who want our help abroad to defend themselves as well. It's a sad stalemate, but it is much preferable to a checkmate IMO. So I guess we've agreed to disagree. You can be the feather, I'll be the hammer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You are in a stalemate then... and in a checkmate. NT -- Voxpopuli, 13:11:17 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You are in a stalemate then... and in a checkmate. NT -- dream of the consortium, 13:22:26 09/12/01 Wed Interesting article about understanding the motivation of terrorists. It's a little outdated, but there are some interesting points in it about the futility of both negotiations AND retaliation. Just thought you two might be interested.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also David Lamb's excellent book "The Arabs." Provocative chapter on "The Making of Terrorism" -- mundusmundi, 13:30:13 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Unfortunately, a large undercurrent in the middle east population believes the US to be... -- Dariel, 18:55:26 09/12/01 Wed

Satan." Actually, there is something the US could do--that's to stop supporting the autocratic, and often repressive regimes of the Middle East. We supported the Shah of Iran, and then funded Saddam when Iraq and Iran became enemies. Then there's Kuwait, which we defended because they had oil, not because they had a democratic government (they don't!). And Saudi Arabia. And remember who gave lots of money to the Taliban during the war in Afganistan. We play different sides against the middle all the time, and then wonder why they hate us. Won't even get into Israel and how we've bungled that.

And no, I don't support terrorism. I live in NYC, and it really infuriates me to think that the US will try the good ole "hammer" response to this crisis. Which will, in the long run, just create another attack. Voxpopuli is right--we need to isolate the religious fanatics. Can't do that without a respectful, coherent foreign policy towards the Middle East.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Exporting Democracy -- Malandanza, 10:50:18 09/13/01 Thu

"Actually, there is something the US could do--that's to stop supporting the autocratic, and often repressive regimes of the Middle East... Then there's Kuwait, which we defended because they had oil, not because they had a democratic government (they don't!)."

Democratic governments are not the only legitimate form of government. In fact, we the US rebelled from England, Ireland was able to vote in the UK -- their vote just didn't matter considering their relatively small population. Tyranny of the majority is just as bad as tyranny of the elite for the people without power. Our founding fathers understood the dangers of a too democratic society and created antidemocratic structures as a means of combating the excesses of mob rule -- many of these protections have been eroded over time (senators, for example, are now directly elected instead of being chosen by state legislatures). The main criterion for helping a country in duress should not be whether the government is democratic, but whether it is seen as a legitimate government by the people who live there. I would say that the majority of the Kuwaitis did see their autocratic government as the more legitimate than an Iraqi dictatorship. Likewise, in Castro's much maligned Cuba, Castro has been popular with the people -- to destroy his regime and force a US style republic upon the Cubans would be wrong.

I agree that we helped Kuwait because they have oil (and because Saddam could have then threatened the Saudis as well) -- but we should have helped Kuwait in spite of their resources -- this was a tiny, peaceful country subjected to terrible deprivations by a much more powerful, belligerent neighbor. Helping the weak against the strong is part of our American mythology.

"And remember who gave lots of money to the Taliban during the war in Afghanistan. We play different sides against the middle all the time, and then wonder why they hate us. Won't even get into Israel and how we've bungled that."

America also supported the Afghan rebels during their struggle with the Soviets. I remember seeing a documentary where one Afghan bitterly complained that the USSR and the USA were willing to fight the war in Afghanistan "to the last Afghan." And as bad as the Taliban is, I'd have to say that it is better than the Soviet occupation.

One of the things that has always struck me about the US's support of Israel is that it is proof that we are not motivated solely by self-interest. Our self-interest lies with the oil-producing nations -- not with Israel (a country that routinely spies on us, keeps the Palestinians as disenfranchised second-class citizens and has a secret police that is truly terrifying). Yet we support Israel in spite of world opinion and our own interests. Perhaps it is because of our desire to support the underdog, but more likely it is due to cultural bias against Arabs -- however, it was not too long ago when America was rabidly anti-Semitic.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Unfortunately, a large undercurrent in the middle east population believes the US to be... -- Rattletrap, 12:00:48 09/13/01 Thu

Americans don't "get" Asians, as a rule. We have been able to establish meaningful trade relationships in a few cases, and fight a tiny handful of effective military operations (but with many unsuccessful ones), but there seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding. Our conversations tend to go like two ships passing each other in the water, neither side really answering the other, or quite aware that they are not answering the other. I don't believe that this is the fault of one side or the other, as much as an underlying rule that we must understand before even attempting to meet with each other.

I think Americans tend to identify with Israelis more than Arabs because of the number of Ashkenazi Jews from Germany, Holland, and other Western European countries who have a worldview much more accessible and Western. I think there is also a sense of backhanded guilt/responsibility for the holocaust that lingers even 50 years later.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Possibilities and impediments to dialog -- Voxpopuli, 12:49:56 09/13/01 Thu

You see, sometimes the most difficult thing is to listen to the other. Being a person from a country that is easy for people to point a finger at (some deserved, some undeserved), I learned to see our mistakes, and try to make better. But what if you think that whatever you do is right or justified? What is fairness is only possible under your own standpoint? I was reading this excellent study on a mostly bantu group close to S‹o Paulo, and it was not the modern part of the study that really caught my attention, but the study of the relationship among white masters and black slaves during the second half of the XIX century. It was really weird and a lot different from what I had imagined. The two ethinical groups, either free or enslaved seemed to live in such symbiosis that it was even scary to read. Like... many of them would never actually fight for the end of slavery because that was so normal a thing for them, so sensible! The "fresh" slaves had more strength to fight, but the old ones, usually made their world inside the farms, marrying inside the slave house, bearing children, "owning" bits of land. In urban areas it was different, but over there... even the white masters, and free mulattos, had a sort of symbiotic relationship with them, some masters freed their slaves when they died, others set terms for their freedom, some slaves got land and cattle, some slaves were almost "family" for them. It was really scary. The two cultures, or more cultures, as rarely a senzala had less than two or three ethnical group all living up together, got strangely mixed. I really try hard to picture how it felt. Sometimes I feel it should be like a CandomblŽ house, with a strict hierarchy, no pure yoruba or bantu, but rather a pidgin language and a sense of racial equality, as if we were linked by something that makes us something else.

This is something weird, and I would not call it good or bad, just a phenomena.

Talking to some AA's they said it was never like this in America. They gave me the feeling that they were always strangers in a strange land, that the system never made them part of it, just a tool of it.

It gave me the impression that if its not a certain pattern, then it is not accepted as part of the system, like if you're not caucasian, of protestant origin, or at least of judeo-christian religion, you are out of the ethos and the physical frame that qualify you as part of the culture. How do you feel this?

When you guys talk about the Jewish, I guess that they do have a set of ethics that is not that different from the protestant christians, they are white, many of European nativity, so they speak European languages as well as hebrew and Yiddish. They were subjected to lots of anger and bias in America, but they've made it through somehow, and the fact that they do have things in common with the culture made them more acceptable.

Now, Asians, as well as Africans, are harder nuts to crack. Not only because of skin colour, but I guess because their culture is just way too different, so different that to try to understand them you will have to get into it somehow, putting your own views in check, and it is hard to do it, specially when you are not the underdog, or the poor country which needs to interact with others in order to survive in a very competitive world.

Sometimes it is hard for me to understand people who come from a very solid ethinical group, or from a very homogeneous culture, because I tend to make everything relative due to the adsorption impulse of my culture, and I am apalled by strict views, not because they are wrong per se, but because they mean that the party I am trying to connect with, does not really see me, but rather sees what they project on me.

I wonder if people could stop making such projections the world would be a better place, Americans would "get" Asians, Asians "get" Americans, and Jews get Muslims, Christians people from ancient religions, and so on. Or maybe this would not help at all, maybe this just helps here because it was how we formed in this identity mess.

The fact that you try to understand the other, is a sort dialog in itself.

I guess I am rambling a lot, but then, guys, how do you feel about this issue?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It starts with respect............. -- Rufus, 13:56:44 09/13/01 Thu

As a child I found myself at many different dinner tables. It's amazing just how similar we all are when we talk over a simple meal about the events of the day and our families. I may not have learned exactly everything about someones culture or religion but would feel connected because we are all the same, sharing the same wishes for our families. I got more than just a different type of meal than I was used to, I got to talk to different generations and hear stories of the past and why we all ended up in the same country. If you enter someones home with respect, you will find respect in return. It's no accident that meals together are so important...we all have to eat. The stories I would hear about survival and family stay with me to this day. Though we may have differences in culture and religion, we are basically all the same...human. I'm glad that I've been invited over to so many different homes over the years. I never went away feeling like I didn't get a culture, I came away with a new respect for people as a whole.
[> [> [> [> [> We need to define *whose* fundamentalist zealotry... -- Solitude1056, 20:51:08 09/12/01 Wed

As long as this off-topic discussion is being tolerated by Masq, I'm going to throw something in here that I've been noticing.

First, I suspect that there are far more people of arab descent who condemn the terrorist attacks, than there are americans who are not prejudiced against the arab nations. Every generation, we have a new "bad guy" - gangsters, mafia, russians, and in the nineties it was the "arab terrorists" - look at how many movies exploited and strengthened this stereotype.

Second, far too few americans truly grasp the complexities of the various arab nations. Iraq is not Jordan is not Palestine is not Saudi Arabia. For years, Jordan was the Switzerland of the Middle East, while Saudi Arabia is wealthy beyond compare from its oil fields, and Palestine is dirt-poor on the level of backwater areas of Alabama. To the average american, it's all the same, and all populated by sheiks in turbans with names like Mohammed.

Third, there are no innocent nations in the Middle Eastern conflict. Before the Six Days War, Israel occupied a stretch of land that ended in a low valley, which was overseen by an unoccupied enscarpment called the Golan Heights, which was owned by Syria. In 1967, Israel decided that they would be better able to protect themselves by occupying this high ground and... they simply took the land. They claimed it as their own, and then began moving people onto it. Israel felt that it required this high ground to better defend themselves, and to this day refuses to release it back to Syria. Syria won't go into peace negotiations without a basic agreement of having their land returned to them, and Israel has traditionally refused to consider such a notion on the basis that it must have that land to defend itself against Syrian aggression. Israel points to the lack of Syrian aggression over the past 30 years (compared to pre-Golan Heights occupation) as proof of this, but one must also bear in mind that Syria may have also backed down because Israel's aggressive action was supported by some significantly larger powers, against which Syria wouldn't have had much of a chance. Israel knows this, and has used this alliance to its advantage. Strangely, this alliance has also meant a short-term memory loss on the part of the US when it comes to the American military ship that Israel sunk in the early eighties. And, of course, we can't ignore the fact that Israel has its own version of these events, and of Syria's political status as an oppressive regime. In Israel's point of view, Syria is therefore undeserving of the niceties such as observation of treaties.

It boils down to this: the situation is not nearly cut and dried. It never had been, it never will be, and religious intolerance is not the main situation, but merely one of the many. Land, people, culture, religion, government, all combine to create a hotspot of activity in which it's going to be a long time before there's true peace. And that peace is either going to come because there's no one left, or the few that are left finally woke up and started talking rather than shooting... and then actually honored the agreements they achieved.

And last, I wrote this for a different list, but it just got suggested that I copy it here, as a final footnote before I shut the hell up. It's in response to someone who, like we have here, expressed disgust at the images on TV of arabs dancing in the streets over the terrorist attacks on the US. Essentially, the person's statement was that from now on, they will support Israel without question as a result of seeing this image on TV.


One small town, one small group of people. Notice that they're being filmed by American media, to boot. I'm not a journalistic photographer, but I'm not ignorant of the fact that media sometimes manipulates - and is manipulated. Please don't judge Moslems by this crass behavior, nor should their rights and history be summarily brushed aside because of the actions of extremists.

The images of the two towers crumbling is a powerful one; the image of people dancing in the streets is equally powerful. If I wanted to whip the American people into a total frenzy against a certain religion or culture, I'd juxtapose those two images without hesitation. Don't let it work. There's a lot more to this than meets the eye, and in this case (as in many), the picture may tell a thousand words but the viewer has got to ask if those are the *right* words. This issue is way too complex - and the results too devastating - to let a single image decide the case for you, for any of us. As photographers, I'd think we, as much as anyone, would instinctively realize that what you see in the frame is not always the whole story.
[> [> [> [> [> [> The only zealotry I was referring to was that of the terrorists and those who actively support them. -- A8, 21:47:21 09/12/01 Wed

Personally, I believe everyone should read the Bible, The Koran, The Vedas, and every major (and minor?) religious text they can get their hands on. These works are important to such a large segment of humanity, that they are essential to the understanding of human interaction here on good ole Earth. They are also intriguing from a pure literary standpoint and provide great insights into how people of differing beliefs view the world.

We should visit churches, temples, and mosques and participate in as many religious and cultural activities as are available to us. Find a Jewish friend and participate in a Passover Seder. Attend a First Communion or Midnight Mass. You don't have to believe in any of it--I definitely don't. This relationship that many people on this planet have with what they call "God" is a major part of human culture. A person's really missing out on something if he or she doesn't explore these things at least a little.

For the majority of the faithful, it appears to me to be a peaceful endeavor for the most part. Almost always, any violence related to religious belief is motivated by politics rather than honest spirituality. The motivation to interpret religious texts to promote violence seems quite obviously to be either the conscious or subconscious need to exert power over others rather than pay worship to any creative source. If you read the texts yourself, it is easy to see how some information could be twisted to serve the darker side of the human psyche.

I'm no authority, but IME, every Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu I have had the pleasure to meet has expressed the same basic peaceful desires as I have--to survive without hurting, to learn knew things, and to enjoy life. The violent may hide behind the banner of their right to pursue their religious calling, but IMO, like patriotism, any religious zealotry promoting violent action is the last refuge of scoundrels.

A couple years ago, we visited a beautiful mosque in the desert of northern New Mexico. The worshippers there were hospitable and eager to share their beliefs with us. My father was taken aback when a couple of pre-teen Muslim girls (heads covered) were giggling and running about in the non-worship areas of the building. Somehow, he had the impression that they were supposed to be somber, not so disrespectful. I just had to laugh--kids are kids, whether they're fidgeting in church or synagogue or giggling in a mosque. I don't think that any religion is monolithic. And I try to approach any unfamiliar culture with as few preconceived notions as is humanly possible. I may not agree with their beliefs, but if I want to exist peacefully on this planet, I have a much better chance armed with a brain full of information.

Just a few thoughts here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> please don't leave this out, changes the picture -- anom, 22:17:03 09/12/01 Wed

"In 1967, Israel decided that they would be better able to protect themselves by occupying this high ground and... they simply took the land."

You don't mention that Syria had been shelling northern Israel from the Golan Heights on a regular basis. Without that info--which I've never seen disputed, only omitted sometimes--it sounds like Israel's capture of the area was unprovoked. If "unoccupied" means no one lived there, that may be true (although I think I remember reading about farms there, & I am not going to look it up this late), but the Syrian army was up there in force.

I'm sure there's plenty more to add on both/all sides, but for now I'm going to leave it at that.

Oh, & I used "picture" in the subj. line without thinking of the photography angle, but it fits.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> there's always more details -- Solitude1056, 05:48:47 09/13/01 Thu

That's exactly why I don't believe that the images we see, although frequently evocative and powerful, should be the main criteria for decisions. There's always another side to the story, and the story in the Israel-Palestine conflict is truly complex and multi-faceted.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Evil lies in the eyes of the beholder... -- Voxpopuli, 06:10:47 09/13/01 Thu

Sometimes the idea that one image is worth a thousand words means that one carefully chosen image, out of contextm without a very much verbal discussion, can make people think what the guy who made the image wants them to think! Sol, I am so skeptical of midia images! I remember being on a demonstration, and the people were being pretty ruthless to the police, throwing things, spitting on the policemen faces, hitting them with clubs, etc. One policeman was hit, and there was a pretty nasty wound on his head. The police fought back, no shooting, but tear gas, and lots of beating. Later that evening when I saw the news, they portrayed the police as if they were repressing a peaceful demonstration. And that demonstration was not peaceful at all. I do not condone police violence, but the midia failed to deliver th whole story, just the part that interested them, that made the ratings go higher. Sometimes the bad guys are not that bad, and the good guys are not that good, but if you trust the media 100%...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> absolutely. -- Solitude1056, 06:46:59 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> Re: Even more eerie ATLTC .... -- mundusmundi, 05:56:00 09/12/01 Wed

A couple nights ago I'd just watched the first episode, where Campbell talks about architectural symbolism. "You can always define a culture by its tallest buildings," he says, and of course they get to the World Trade Center. I wonder what Campbell would have said defines us now?

I do have to disagree with him, though, on the Middle East. It really boils down to one Religious fervor may fuel such actions, but the objectives are mainly about anger and frustration at not having enough "living space" in which to exist. (Even the Crusades were started by the papacy largely to end the internecine warfare between lords and vassals, and those same knights readily carved up their own fiefdoms in the Holy Land. Much more than a "Holy War.")
[> [> [> Same as day before yesterday, mm, the Sears Tower -- d'Herblay, 06:24:50 09/12/01 Wed

Um. That was relevant to nothing. Fire bad. Tree pretty.
[> [> [> A less flippant response -- d'Herblay, 09:49:49 09/12/01 Wed

Virginia Postrel posted this in her weblog (scroll down):

Attacking the World Trade Center may maximize deaths, but it doesn't pack an emotional wallop beyond the loss of life and the attack on American soil. Nobody gets sentimental about the twin towers. They don't represent national pride. They aren't even-or, weren't even-the most beloved skyscrapers in New York, although they were the most accessible. And the Pentagon is important symbolically only because attacking it is clearly an act of war.

The attacks arouse anger because they were made against on Americans on American soil. No one was sentimental about the Oklahoma City federal building until Tim McVeigh blew it up. Further symbolism isn't necessary. I shudder to think what retribution an attack on a real symbol of national pride, like the Statue of Liberty, would produce. Here's hoping she's well-protected.

When Hollywood wants to make a visceral impact, they go for the Empire State Building and the White House (Independence Day) or the Chrysler Building (Armageddon). I think it may be likely that the plane that crashed over Shanksville was heading for just such a target in Washington (though it's just speculation on my part). I know some people have said Camp David, but I think that's a) conflation of an earlier rumor with the site of the crash, b) an attempt to make some sense of the event, and to ascribe motives to the perpetrators, thus petitio principiiing the question of who the perpetrators actually are. Plus, you'll notice from the flight path animation that the destination airport code changes from San Francisco to Washington National.

So I guess my response to the Campbellian argument is: size isn't everything. Beauty counts.
[> [> [> [> Terror does not really care for symbols -- Voxpopuli, 10:27:14 09/12/01 Wed

They do not go for the symbols only, but for the kill. How many would die in a bombing of the Statue of Liberty? The WTC was a juicy snack for them, because of what it symbolizes for non-americans and Americans, and because it was full of American citizens. Why would they go for the Statue of Liberty? They do not want to attack liberty, and the kill would not be big. Why go for the Empire State Building? It is not big enough, it is not a symbol of capitalism in its wildest form, but the kill could be considerable. When considering a target, many things are taken in consideration. Terror is about creating a paranoid environment, getting under the skin of the common population. You do it by striking people, common people. If they can put people and a capitalist symbol together, great for them. If not, they go for the kill only, and it is as effective as always. I know it sounds creepy, and very cynical, but that is how things seem to work for them. Forget elaborate ideas, get to the basics and you'll get terrorism theoretical basis. I thank all Orix‡s that my country is ever so peaceful, even considering the diversity of the population (high, extremely high, degree of inter racial marriages in general).

[> [> [> [> [> Do you really believe that your country is immune to violence? -- A8, 12:40:31 09/12/01 Wed

[I thank all Orix‡s that my country is ever so peaceful, even considering the diversity of the population (high, extremely high, degree of inter racial marriages in general).]

With all due respect Vox, violence has many faces. If you are fortunate enough to be free from terrorism, you are in no way immune from violence in your country. While you may have found a peaceful corner of the world in which to live (and my best wishes to you if you have), Brazil, through its government and its people have committed all manner of violent crimes against humanity and the Earth's environment. I would refer you to a few sites that document Brazil's mistreatment of its children and indigenous peoples, and its criminal destruction of its wildlife and rainforests. I don't mean to point any fingers here or try to make you feel bad--I admire your optimism and apparent sense of peace. However, just because you are not personally impacted by violence in your world, does not mean it doesn't exist there. None of us are immune, and we are all responsible in one way or another as citizens of this planet.

For your information, Amnesty International and Greenpeace are an excellent source of what's going on in the world. The relevant sites are:

Keep thinking positive thoughts. Ultimately, on an individual level, hope and love are our best defenses against the fear and violence. But information and vigilance are just as essential.

[> [> [> [> [> [> No, just amazed that terrorism has never stricken us. -- Voxpopuli, 13:07:35 09/12/01 Wed

Gee, if we go deep in it, you'll see that although we do have our share of guilt, the US does play a large role on it. I have family on the military who just hate Americans for what they witnessed during the military dictatorship. So, forget the patronizing speech, and American made documentaries. Indigenous people... our indigenous people have more land than any other indigenous population in the AMERICAS, and if the treatment is not perfect, it is not ruthless either, considering what they have suffered in the past, and what the indigenous population of the US had suffered. I know this, because I am a politically engaged person, and I think things should get better, but... given the conditions, so far it is the best we could do.

Destruction of wildlife and forest... hum... who is the US to make such claims? Brazil has improved its protection of the rainforest and wildlife throughout the years (without international funding - real - and being pressured by foreign companies to give lands, sell wood, etc, beside other natural resources).

Treatment of children. I do not know if it is translated into English, but have you read a book called "The HIstory of Infancy in Brazil"? You should, great reading. Seen from a social context, you see the roots of this ruthless treatment and of an extreme liberal treatment. Most aggressions come from a situation of extreme poverty and social unbalance. Unfortunately, most of our problems are magnified by the fact that although we are the 15 economy of the world, our educational system is very Euro centred, and many other "good" things, the distribution of wealth is still very "colonial". Oh, by the way, the first attempt to distribute wealth, land etc, was labelled "socialist" and the US sponsored torture and a military dictatorship for over 20 years of cold war. As a lawyer I have each and every information necessary about our system, the good and bad sides of them, and I do not trust just internet sites to update me. Actually as a hobby, and also because most of my friends and socilogists, psychosociologist, historians, etc (I am the only bad apple in the basket), I do study and get involved in actions, social actions to improve the place where I live. Actually, A8, even my religion is a mean to it, as I am a priestess of Afro-Brazilian religions, where you see, lots of women, poor people, gays, children, and which has a huge communitary activity unrelated ti governments or NGOs, just by its own nature.

So, if I can be optimistic, I am because I know it is possible to live with diversity, I am optimistic because I know what is to live with prejudice, what it felt to have been beaten harshly as a child, I know what it means to come from a poor neighbouhood, and having an illiterate grandmother, and I know what it feels to have your house investigated as a child because your father gave a piece of bread to a political prisoner who was starving. I know the life of a child and of a woman in Brazil, I know what it feels to have made my own way up the social scale being honest, studious, and hardworking. And, still, I am optimistic, I can relate to people, I can lick my wounds, get up, face the new day, and make yesterdays's defeat tomorrow's victory. Sorry dear, turn off the monitor, get real about life.

So, as I said in the subject... with all I said, it is amazing that terrorism has never been a bog issue around here, that we do not have such violence here, that it is ever so peaceful around here given the diversity and all the reasons we had to explode in general violence.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Like I said, wasn't pointing any fingers, just providing information... -- A8, 13:53:10 09/12/01 Wed

..I am a lawyer myself (no longer practicing for moral reasons) and have a degree in International Relations, so I have a particular interest in and knowledge of what goes on in the world. I also have relatives who have lived in Brazil, so AI, Greenpeace, etc. are not my only sources of information. Of course, you can always rationalize the wrongs of your nation by pointing out the wrongs of mine. Doesn't really solve the problem, though, does it?

Like I said, none of us are innocent. The U.S. has much to work on and many grievances to redress. There are many of us here who live in denial and will never admit to the hard and painful truths of our history. I'm not one of them. Of course, ethnically, I suppose I qualify as one of the oppressed (among my ancestors are American indigenous people and immigrants from Europe who fled oppression), although I have been fortunate never to have suffered any serious degree of prejudice, and I refuse to ever play the part of the victim. Such are the benefits of being born and raised in a City that embraces diversity and weirdness. Although, I'm really not too fond of those dot.commers that came in here, raised the price of housing and drove all the artists out (just kidding...kind of).

As for guilt--sorry never believed in it. Guilt is for those who have done something to feel guilty about. For better or for worse, I've lived my life with the honest intention to harm no one, to seek enlightenment, and to pass along any knowledge I may have acquired to those who are interested. And of course, to create a little music along the way as well. I do feel responsible as a citizen of the US and as a citizen of the world to do what I can to effect change. Information is the first and best instrument of change IMO. Acknowledging my own faults and the faults of my government comes next. One thing I will say is there is no country as diverse or open as ours here. It is the only country in the world whose citizenry is composed of people from every part of the world and encourages them to bring what they can contribute to the party . When the world has a major problem, it looks to us. And when the world has a gripe it blames us. When it wants money, it asks us for it, then points out our greed when we expect repayment. When we discuss loan forgiveness, it's too little, too late. When we express concerns about human rights, nuclear proliferation and environmental destruction, we're told to mind our own business. Whatever we do here, it will never be enough, but at least there are quite a number of us here who are sincere in our efforts to evolve. I'm no isolationist. I love the world and the many nice people in it, but I'm very glad that I was born here and am a little sad that so many people would hate me just because of that fact.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I am pointing fingers. -- Voxpopuli, 05:00:37 09/13/01 Thu

I have American relatives, I have friends who live and have lived in the US, and I do not see your society as diverse as you say. For instance, as I was discussing once in a AA forum, and I have my things against African Americans take on racial issues, the guys are not Americans who are black, they are "African Americans", or others who are "Irish Americans". My country had a different take on diversity, that is the absorption of cultures. This does not mean that racism does not exist, it does, in a different fashion, maybe more insidious, maybe not (as some say despite the fact that it is a myth, there is some racial democracy in Brazil, or at least the hope of), but it means, that after one or two generations, the immigrant population mingle, even racially, and then they can not define themselves as Portuguese-Brazilians, Afro-Brazilians anymore. The cultural identification with the land their ancestors came from becomes more and more difficult until it disappears. This phenomena is very frequent in the South-East and Urban areas, and very prevalent in the northeast and inner land. So, the crucial issue for the Black movement for instance is how to define an identity based on colour and ancestrality when you do not have any identification, cultural, with the original ethnicity. And how black are you? Affirmative Actions here would be most fun: the interviewers for companies and universities should have a sort of colour scale, and place near the skin of the candidate to check if he or she is dark enough to apply for the positions reserved for people of colour. And then there are families, where one cousin is blond, the other is black, one sister is mulatta, the other is white with freckles, and when you have the family meetings, this things are really unimportant (I say from experience, I have cousins from every shade you can imagine, and the family names go from plain Brazilian Silva, to Hrzmann and Barouh, and in the end, we are all just a bunch of Silvas arguing who's going to get the last bit of dessert), because culturally we are the same. This kind of diversity is both annoying, as it gives the impression that the original cultures are gone, and inspiring as you can see that they were not gone, but blended into new identities.

You talked about nuclear programs. Brazil has only one nuclear power plant, and the population is very much against the nuclear program. It is situated in the South of my state, in a piece of land that is very beautiful, a stretch of clear crystal green sea and luxurious forest. As I said it was pretty ironic to place a nuclear power plant on that specific spot, about 200km from the second largest city in the Country, my city, Rio de Janeiro. Angra has been pretty much shut down for years, and due to the current energy crisis, they are thinking of opening it's other facilities as well, but any movement towards building new nuclear plants is seen as undesirable and highly un-popular. And the government has got no money to invest in such areas. Before talking about foreign debt (ours) you should study the origins of it, the source of Latin American and African indebtment. This is something that is not easy to live with, from our standpoint, and there is guilt everywhere, actually coming from colonial times. The Africans place the ultimate guilt on the Europeans (partly justified), but as I said once, I can't understand how Angolans like us, Brazilian landlords unleashed hell in Angola gathering slaves. (My candomblŽ is bantu, Angola roots, I know what I am talking about). As an old Iyalorisha said, she does not see the colour or social status of her children, we are all Brazilian. This ability to leave the past behind and fight for something new, made us one stable democracy after the military dictatorship. Human rights had to be learned again, people had to redefine their own rights and obligations, and the process is still in progress, actually it is beautiful to observe. Brazil does get money from IMF, and it is one of the countries who has been getting the best agreements because we are being able to fulfill our part, and the IMF, A8, is no charitable trust, take a look in their contracts and you'll see what I mean. I guess our only almost undiguised hatred is for Argentina, and it is not due to soccer, but to a deep cultural difference. I guess no Brazilian feels at ease in a country where 90% of the population is "white" :-). Being a woman, and poor in Brazil is the most difficult thing. My family comes from the northeast, one grandma illiterate, the other black, my grandfather of jewish descent, I have sirians, and Portuguese, and Spanish, native brazilians, people who worked in farms in the North of my state, people who barely knew hoe wot read and write. It is hard to grow up in a poor neighbourhood, and my grandfather helped found a slum, and he grew enough to get out of there ot a poor naighbourhood that was alittle better, and I learned that being female and poor makes you have to fight harder. Thus my social and political engagement. You have to be better, work harder, fight harder, and yet... I'd choose nowhere else to live (and I have the opportunity to live abroad), because despite the problems, economic, this place has an incredible aura, people do not hate each other, people do not kill each other for religion or colour, and this hope comes from a family structure that as far as I could see, Europeans are closer to understanding than Americans. In the end your "information" comes from the same source that Brazilian politicians and social scientist despise so much. For some reason American oriented programs do not work here, and it is not sabotage, it is just that you fail to grasp the diversity that you claim to have. You do have a diverse community, but you are unable to see that it could develop in some other way, and that it is as good as, and as valid as yours. This behaviour of yours, embodies all that foreigners hate about Americans : arrogance. Learning to dialog means getting information first hand, learning about history, economics, getting involved with the problems you are studying in the sense that you communicate with the ones who experience it. It is a subject of argument in sociology, but here the current school shares the trend on mingling to study, like Bastide did, like Verger, and other French and German antthropologists, like the works of the Villas Boas brothers, researchers of indigenous populations, architects of the Brazilian pattern of preserving the indigenous cultures (go fight against American missionaries, and rogue gold miners, and greedy landlords, and still maintain a scientifical approach!), we have a different way to do things, and yes, I am pointing a finger not at America, but at you, for talking about things that you clearly do not know, but was informed of.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> time to step away from the keyboard. -- Solitude1056, 08:18:40 09/13/01 Thu

This forum works because we all strive to communicate maturely, and to remember that while we may disagree, it's alright if we agree to disagree... but personal attacks are not okay. We all know that hot buttons get hit sometimes - the gawdz only know I've enough of them myself - but please, next time, think twice before bringing it to the personal level. I respect you both & have enjoyed sparring with you both, and that's why I decided to say: please, chill. We've dealt with some tough issues on this board, but the past two days have severely tested us beyond what we'd ever have expected - not only as a group, but as members of the human race. Please, in the wake of such high emotions, let's not forget the prime directive of Masquerade's creation: agree to disagree, but don't get personal about it. Thanks.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well said, Sol -- Wisewoman, 11:17:39 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I have to agree. It's time to move on friends. -- Liquidram, 11:26:36 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I guess I'll take the blame for this and then move on. -- A8, 12:19:47 09/13/01 Thu

I have to laugh when people so overcome with their own issues are unable to engage in civil discourse. It's quite sad actually. Maybe the problem is in the language. I admit, I'm not very eloquent and perhaps my points get lost in their inaccuracy and problems of translation. Someone in a previous post mentioned the Uncertainty Principle. I think it has a special application when it comes to language. The more specific you try to get, the more vague you become.

There's a wonderful post above that encapsulates some of my thoughts about how America is viewed by the world. It fails to mention the darker side of our culture here, but there are enough people (see V, above) willing to point that out, as if it were the only important thing. Maybe they would prefer a world without the US (but then that kind of thinking is what prompted the carnage that transpired on this week in NY, PA and DC). Like Bart Simpson once said when asked to give an example of a paradox: "you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't." ;-) All that I know is that I spent my life doing my part to make my country and this world a better place. Maybe part of the problem is that people elsewhere in the world expect, though will not admit, way too much of us here and are disappointed when we inevitably fall short of the mark. Oh well, at least we try.

I consider myself typical of the future of this country. I have ancestors and relatives from all the continents and my own ethnic mix is Heinz 57. I don't affiliate myself with any one religion or ethnic heritage, and so I have the freedom to embrace them all, and if I prejudge any one culture or belief system, I run the risk of prejudging my own background, my own existence. The US has been inaccurately characterized as a 'melting pot' for some time now, but until the last two decades or so, it has been more like a tossed salad--no real blending was going on. The complexion of this country, though, is literally changing these days. Through intermarriage, the races and cultures are blending, and nobody is going to able to stop it--that's what scares the Hell out of all those racists out there. They can see it happening and there's nothing they can do about it other than lash out in the anger of being left behind.

I would never intentionally call someone ignorant just because I disagreed with them. I really try to bridge differences by learning new things and thereby developing a better understanding of those things that are unfamiliar to me. Unfortunately, some don't understand the concept of balanced reasoning and the difficulty in attaining that level of reasoning in the face of their own unacknowledged prejudices. As our discussions here prove, we are becoming a world community. Governments are becoming less and less relevant to how we think and how we act, including my own.

Oh well, you do the best you can and wish the best for others. So sorry if I've been misunderstood. Time to move on to more interesting topics.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Are you really moving on? Never mind. I am. -- Voxpopuli, 13:14:24 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Lawyers! Always have to have the last word.;-) -- A8, 13:27:15 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Lawyers are lawyers... what can we do? -- Voxpopuli, 05:02:13 09/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> [> Logistics -- Solitude1056, 11:54:35 09/12/01 Wed

I've never flown a jumbo jet, but we're not talking a small projectile. And the Statue of Liberty, by all comparisons, is a small target. The Sears Tower's design, if you look at it, is unusual in that it presents a narrower target at the top than lower down. The two World Trade towers, however, had two things going for them: one, they're still standing after the bomb back in 80-whenever, and two, they're easy to see from a distance, tall, and substantial from top to bottom. Easy target, and with the added bonus of (perhaps) being a remaining target of the US economy's indifference/invulnerability to external negative forces. For the same reason, the Pentagon was probably easier to aim for than most other things in DC. For starters, you can see it from the air for a long way away, where the Capital, the White House, and various other museums and what-not all have similar architecture. Picking one out from the other as a non-local is, I'm told, a bit befuddling. So chances are, I'd guess, it wasn't just to aim at the American symbol of impregnability and martial strength (as opposed to, say, the American symbol of democracy), but to go for something easily seen from a good distance.

I mean, if we'd been guessing beforehand, I would've thought: Independence Hall, the Statue of Liberty, Fanueil Hall, the White House, the Capital, etc, etc. But it seems to me that the terrorists didn't intend to wound our sense of democracy - if we're ready to go for blood now, who knows what we would've done if the Capital had been hit. The backlash will already probably be phenomenal, but the possessive sense of pride in our founding landmarks would've pushed us into welcoming genocide in retaliation, I think. Too emotional a landmark. And terrorists don't want to unify us in retaliating anger. No, they intend to scare us. Duh. And they did it by striking at the two things that make us a superpower: our military, and our money. Well, la dee dah. They hit 'em, we'll bury the dead and cry for the wounded, and keep right on keeping on.

Ok, I ramble. I'm still waiting to hear from two old friends who worked in the Financial District in NYC, and as the hours pass... No news is not good news, today.
[> [> [> [> [> actually... -- anom, 13:06:12 09/12/01 Wed

NPR has broadcast reports that the plane that hit the Pentagon was originally supposed to crash into the White House (don't remember the source, don't know if that's confirmed).
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: actually... -- dream of the consortium, 13:11:06 09/12/01 Wed

FBI director just confirmed at the afternoon press conference (see my message immediately below).
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Logistics -- dream of the consortium, 13:08:35 09/12/01 Wed

Latest is that the third plane wasn't planning on hitting the Pentagon, but rather the White House. (Don't ask me how they know this - I can't imagine.) And the fourth plane, the one that crashed outside Pittsburgh, was apparently en route to Air Force One in Florida. So you have a pyramid of symbolism - the broadest representation of America's economic dominance in the World Trade Center (also representing the largest number of regular citizens), then the symbolic center of government power with the White House, and then a direct attack at the national leader. I agree that our national symbols of democracy (Liberty Bell) would not have been obvious targets, but not, I believe, because they thought it would create more anger than fear. Rather, I think we have to consider that the symbols Americans consider the most important representations of America may not be the same symbols the rest of the world recognizes. Also, logistically, the World Trade Center does have advantages, as you noted. Furthermore, the World Trade Center was targeted before, and therefore there may have been a sense that they were "finishing the job", so to speak. In many ways, I can't imagine a target that would be more devastating; as an East Coaster, everyone I know had someone they knew who worked there. And the visual impact on the skyline leaves a long- lasting symbol.

I am so sorry that you haven't heard from your friends, but remember the chaos in Manhattan right now. I had a friend get back to me much later than I would have liked, in part because she was busy calling everyone she knew to tell each one that she was okay.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yipe! -- Humanitas, 13:26:44 09/12/01 Wed

Air Force One was in Sarasota, not too far from where I live, and home to a lot of friends of mine. And now I hear that a lot of the investigations into the support network for the hijackers are down here, albiet in other parts of the state.

Guess we're not so far off the terrorist radar as I'd hoped.

>sound of illusions dying<

[> [> [> [> [> [> It'll probably never be known. -- Solitude1056, 13:46:54 09/12/01 Wed

Word is that shortly before reaching the Potomac, the plane did a severe turn that's almost unheard of for jumbo jets - almost the equivalent of turning on a dime. It's a move practiced mostly by fighter pilots, which is what led the FBI & FAA to believe (before reports from cell phones came in) that the terrorists were piloting it rather than forcing the pilot to cooperate. Regardless, the plane was headed directly towards DC and at the last minute did a severe right-hand turn and nailed the Pentagon. I've not heard anyone say why - it's just assumed the plane may have originally headed for the White House but why they changed their mind is unknown. There's lots of targets in DC - hell, just about anywhere in on the Mall and you'd hit something that's got historical significance for our country, as well as take out everyone in that block.

On the other hand, the President wasn't at the White House at the time of the attack, so plans may've been changed for that reason. Or something. On top of that, DC doesn't have any skyscrapers or high-population buildings like in NYC - we don't have any buildings higher than the Capitol, actually - you're not talking much more than six or seven stories. Just not going to find a target that'll take out several thousand people, but the Pentagon (at max capacity), you could take out 20,000 people *and* hit an American symbol. And frankly, I think the terrorists were going for max numbers of lives, along with symbolism.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It'll probably never be known. -- Cleanthes, 14:20:25 09/12/01 Wed

It's lucky that the pilot changed his mind at the last minute on his target. If the Pentagon had been the intended target from the beginning, surely the aim point would have been the center courtyard where the force of the explosion and burning fuel would have been concentrated by the surrounding building. All five sides of the building would have sustained severe and immediate damage. By hitting the outside edge of the (immense) building, they only killed people on that one side.

The White House isn't all that easy to identify from the air, what with the nearby largish office buildings, the treasury and the Old Executive office building. The Capitol's easy to identify.

My own, personal speculation, is that the terrorists communicated between themselves during the attack - so that when the terrorist pilot on the Dulles plane determined that the Newark plane had successfully been hijacked, then he attacked the Pentagon, trusting to the other plance to take out the second Washington target. If this is true, the Feds will have sigint now available with these actual communications.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> sigint? -- d'Herblay, 14:33:08 09/12/01 Wed

I get the int, but fill me in on the sig.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: sigint? -- Cleanthes, 19:10:47 09/12/01 Wed

Sorry, I've been listening to too much TV. I hear the explanation and I assume everyone watched the same show I did!

Sigint = signals intelligence. What the US gov's satelites do to practically all cell phone calls and lots of other stuff like radio communications between planes.

Incidentally, I heard a report on one of the channels (I surf and surf -- VH1 had great coverage on the first day because they merely rebroadcast a local NY station, which was a different point of view than the national feeds - the Florida network, normally a shill for the state tourism industry, has had good stuff about local news like the evacuations at Disney & in Tally, but, I digress) that congratulations were heard from the cockpit of one of the later hijacked planes. These voices MAY have been of the terrorist, which would make my scenario more plausible.

The terrorists would not fear signals interceptions very much because they were all on suicide missions anyway. By the time this intelligence was found and considered, it would be WAY too late.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: sigint? -- d'Herblay, 19:51:04 09/12/01 Wed

Thanks . . . I'm acronymically challenged, and I kept thinking "'significant intelligence'?" But that's my own insignificant intelligence.

If I found any joy on TV yesterday it was the surfeit of news options. Not only WCBS on MTV and VH1, but we had BBC World Service on one of our PBS stations and the Home Shopping Network (!!) was showing us Canadian news--which is the first I heard of the escorted landing in Whitehorse. I kept waiting for SCOLA to broadcast the news from Tehran, which they do at least weekly, but if they did, I missed it.
[> [> [> [> Eh? -- mundusmundi, 13:07:50 09/12/01 Wed

Was I making a Campbellian argument? If so, purely unintentional. Though if one did I suppose one could cite Joe's "Economic Symbolism" of the WTC, and how that may have symbolically attracted Whoever Did It besides the obviously high potential casualty rate (perhaps those who didn't get it quite right the first time back in '93). But I was really just reflecting on the coincidence that I saw the video only a day or two before yesterday. Dat's all. :)

You are quite correct, by the way, that the Scioto River doesn't have a "harbor." At least they don't call it a "harbor." They don't really call it anything other than The Santa Maria at Batelle Park, so I suppose it's just a dock. Though way I see it, dagummit, if we have a fake ship, then we can have a fake harbor. ;)
[> [> [> [> [> Um . . . -- d'Herblay, 13:47:08 09/12/01 Wed

Um . . . can I offer "Fire bad, tree pretty" as a response? Naw, I've already used that one in this thread. Definitely not an "argument." Though I think I read "'You can always define a culture by its tallest buildings,' he says, and of course they get to the World Trade Center. I wonder what Campbell would have said defines us now?" in a manner different than you intended.

Then I read something about how foreign media (Japanese, in particular) were playing up the symbolic value of the targets, and Virginia Postrel's response to that, and I thought of a way to illustrate her point with popular culture references . . . oh, to hell with it. Fire bad. Tree Pretty.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I liked Postrel's response, actually -- mundusmundi, 13:56:32 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Is it just me or has the symbolism angle been a little overplayed here? -- A8, 16:51:39 09/12/01 Wed

The real tragedy is the loss of human life in a futile attempt to destroy our way of being. Nobody I know attaches too much symbolic value to the WTC or the Pentagon. It is the fact that so many innocent people were killed going about their daily lives that angers them and me. I'm quite afraid that a few old acquaintances and schoolmates of mine could among the casualties. We'll have to wait and see.

As far as symbolism and buildings go, the Empire State Building has always seemed the epitome of the American Spirit because it was the tallest for so long and became a beacon of hope from the time of its construction during the Great Depression. I don't think the soulless terrorist is capable of grasping the importance of that kind of symbolism. When your heart is dark and hard as coal and your beliefs as shallow as stagnant water you strike out at the obvious, and can claim a hollow victory, as illusory as it is in fact, over the weak and the defenseless.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Is it just me or has the symbolism angle been a little overplayed here? -- mundusmundi, 19:46:34 09/12/01 Wed

I apologize for being one of the overplayers. It was really just meant as an offhand remark following a terrible night. I was (and still am) feeling stressed and depressed and read Dedalus's thought on Campbell, which thinking and writing about helped me abstract the problem and deal. I have an old college friend who works at the WTC too, who may or may not be alive. I hope he's okay, and that your friends are too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I didn't mean you--the media really want to milk the symbolic aspect for dramatic effect... -- A8, 20:02:18 09/12/01 Wed if this cataclysm needs any more dramatic effect. I understand what you were getting at though. I hope your friend is okay too.
[> [> [> [> Symbolism -- Rattletrap, 11:49:31 09/13/01 Thu

It is worth noting that, in addition to the symbolism of targets, intended or not, there is the symbolism in response of the government. I have mareveled over the last few days at the largely symbolic nature of most of the official response. No one questioned whether or not President Bush would address the nation Tuesday night, it was a matter of course, despite the fact that his speech revealed little or no new information and said very little unexpected. The same can be said of the Congressional press conference and all of the leaders singing "God Bless America" together. Even Bush's visit to the disaster site at the Pentagon will likely provide no new insights or in any way change the formulation of future policy. It seems, though, that we need to see the president and the government going through these symbolic actions as part of the collective recovery process. The substantive decisions will be made in the weeks to come, but the symbols are equally necessary. There is probably a sort of Jungian logic or something at work here, but I'm still working through these things in my own mind too much to identify it.

Sorry for rambling.

[> [> [> [> [> Speaking of symbolism... -- A8, 14:19:42 09/13/01 Thu

..A local radio commentator here just suggested that we rebuild the twin towers as soon as possible because they would stand as 'twin middle fingers' to the vermin who had the temerity to knock the original ones down. Had to laugh--the image is so New York. Flippin' the double bird to the rest of the world.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Twin Fingers! That'll learn 'em! -- mundusfreakingmundi, 14:39:05 09/13/01 Thu

We love a fictional hero, but today is for real heros... -- Drizzt, 12:44:33 09/11/01 Tue

Rescue personnel were following procedure. Trying to evacuate the first Tower in an orderly fashion unknowing that the Tower would collapse in minutes...

I say that all of the firemen, medics, and police who died in the collapse are real heros to me.

I hope that the reason the one plane crashed in the forest instead of on a symbol of America is that the pilots did their best to fight the hijackers... I hope the pilots and crew of the other planes did their best also...
[> Speaking of heros, why don't we spare some blood. -- Avatar 2001, 13:44:14 09/11/01 Tue

I know that in this board we tend to save it in hopes that we come across Spike but he's just one vampire a there are a lot of us and may persons needing it.

While I'm sure not all of it will go to the victims of these despicable acts it will certainly go to people in need.
[> [> Re: Speaking of heros, why don't we spare some blood. -- Drizzt, 14:08:10 09/11/01 Tue

"Blood is life, why do you think we eat it?" Irrelivent sentance, then Spike says "It makes us other than dead"
[> [> [> Quite the GIFT! -- Avatar 2001, 14:48:27 09/11/01 Tue

Now that I think about it what Buffy did was a lot like giving blood. She offered hers to save Dawn's life, except for the whole dying part.

I've relatives in NY and I Just found out that they are OK so I'm felling very relived, even if I'm very sorry for the people that died.
[> [> Re: Speaking of heros, why don't we spare some blood. -- dan, 14:56:14 09/11/01 Tue

we've been having a near-crisis because of a lack of blood for our hospitals and clinics anyway, before major tragedies like this happen. I'm sure that blood banks from hundreds of miles away from NYC are at this moment rushing blood to the NYC hospitals. Please, please give blood if you can!

Of course (bitter, bitter snarl here), not all of us can. I can't - if you're a guy, and you've had sex with a guy since 1978, they won't take your blood. it's a policy that strikes me as grossly homophobic - no distinction is made during the Q&A betwen unsafe sex and safer sex, and after all, the most rapidly growing AIDS population is heterosexual women. *sigh*

But if you possibly can, get out there and offer up your veins, people! :-)

[> [> [> but call ahead--some centers are flooded -- anom, 15:06:02 09/11/01 Tue

I tried to donate at my local hospital & was told all the phlebotomists had been sent downtown, closer to the scene, & to leave my name, phone no., & blood type so they could call me tomorrow (they expect to still need blood for several days!). If you're in NY (probably DC too), call before you go to donate (in NY: NY Blood Ctr. [1-800-933-2533]) to find out if your local ctr. is taking any more donations & when. (At NY-Pres. they said to try at St. Luke's, farther downtown. 3 of us went there & were told they had >100 donors waiting to give & we should try tomorrow.)
[> [> [> five hour wait in DC & about those restrictions... -- Solitude1056, 15:30:30 09/11/01 Tue

The red cross won't take your blood if you've had a tattoo in the past year, but many hospitals go with the less extreme of sixty days. In case you're wondering, that is... heard tell a contingent of PIBs (People In Black) went down to the George Washington Hospital and made themselves comfy while waiting to give blood. Was quite the social scene, bummer I missed it.

But yeah, it's a long wait around here, so take a book or better yet, take several friends. And even if you're not in the local areas, go ANYWAY. The Red Cross is going to be shipping blood in from nationwide, over the next few days to the main nerve centers, and then those local hospitals are going to need restocking of their own supplies. So even if you're way out over there, go anyway. If it doesn't go to the victims of this disaster, never fear, someone else will need it.
[> [> [> I was requested to come back tomorrow - too busy today -- Liquidram, 15:47:24 09/11/01 Tue

[> Sending blessings and love to all, in hopes that you and yours are safe tonight. -- rowan, 16:57:34 09/11/01 Tue

Explosions happening now in Kabul, Afghanistan, gender apartheid due to the Taliban -- dan, 15:19:49 09/11/01 Tue

CNN has footage right now from Kabul, the capitol of Afghanistan. It's late at night there, and there are explosions.

I have no idea why. It's really confused. I think that we might be bombing them - there's been reports of anti-aircraft fire. Or maybe it's a continuation of the Afghani civil war.

I don't know if the Taliban (Afghanistan's theocratic controlling party) actually had anything to do with the attacks today or bin Ladin. I don't want to jump to conclusions. Sure, it seems like it makes sense, but this could just be xenophobia on my part. But I do know that I've hated the Taliban from the get-go. Anyone familiar with the horrific "gender apartheid" that hit Afghanistan when the Taliban had their coup d'etat?

Afghanistan before the Taliban was a pretty cosmopolitan society, especially for the Middle East. Women were *half* of the nation's doctors, and I believe more than half of the university students. Afghanistan was one of the most progressive countries in the Middle East as far as gender issues were concerned - women were an integral part of public life.

But now, Afghani women in the portions of the country ruled by the Taliban have been subjected to the most horrific interpretation of the Qu'ran possible. All Afghani women must wear the burkha, a head-to-foot dark robe that covers the face, whenever they leave the home. Women can no longer go to school. Women can hold no jobs outside the home. Women must be escorted by male relatives whenever they leave the house. Any homes with women in them must paint their windows black. Male doctors are not allowed to touch women. Any violation of these laws can result in stoning for the transgressors. Keep in mind that about five years ago, women were completely integrated into daily public life, and that frankly, the situation of women in Afghanistan compared very well with that of women in the States or any other "First World" country.

Hang in there, everyone.

[> Pentagon just said we're not responsible for Kabul explosions. -- dan, 16:17:39 09/11/01 Tue

Terrorism as a world phenomena... -- Drizzt, 16:10:00 09/11/01 Tue

This thread is for any points about terrorism in general...

US of America, land of the free, land of oppertunity, land of dreams of equality.

Today we face a fact of hostility that many other countries have known for years. In conflict and war the violence will be indiscriminate and civilians are targets; not for any threat or danger from the civilians, but to cause as much pain and fear as possible. Today we in the US face the worst act of terrorism worldwide...but it is a minor tragedy compared to the horror of war. We are still a young country that has never experienced a genuine invasion force from an enemy; Civil War does not count because that was pushing out an occupying force that did have some validity.

The cold war was about getting a "bigger stick", until the point was reached that our own "sticks" the bombs were as much a threat to us as to our enemies... Terrorism is a different cycle. Hurt your enemy because they have hurt you or your concerns weather political, terretorial, religious, or other type of concerns... Problem is they will allways retaliate, if history is an indicator of the possible futures...

I am an idealist. My idealism makes me cynical whenever stupid and cruel things are done...permanent state I guess;)

Terrorism is horrible if it is a bully in a school yard, it is beyond words when thousands are killed for a political statement or attention.

Wierd thing is how easy terrorism is and how few monsterous disasters there are considering how many fanatics are in the world. A current issue of a science magazine(read six to eight/month...forgot wich one) has an artical on very cheap and low-tech EMP devices. Just as scary as a "fertilizer bomb" for the simple reason that any hobby scientist could make them, and darn that magazine with millions of readers for putting a clear description of them in the issue.

Argh! Too many stupid people in the world.
[> Re: Terrorism as a world phenomena... -- John Burwood, 23:46:15 09/11/01 Tue

I speak from a country accustomed to terrorism, so much that even our small provincial social security building has annual bomb drills. I could not find words to post yesterday - expressions of sympathy seem hardly adequate, but my thoughts are with all ofyou in America, for what they are worth. And I have chosen this post to make one simple point about the nature of terrorism, and the nature of realverse evil. The defining qualityof pure evil is its absolute certainty in its rectitude - a certainty allowing no room for doubt or respect or even toleration for other views. The cause it believes in is irrelevant. Evil is about how people believe, not what they believe.
[> [> Re: Terrorism as a world phenomena... -- Drizzt, 01:08:11 09/12/01 Wed

Unfortunately for me I do not have any certanty in the correctness of my veiws; allways see both sides to situations and morality. A simple black & white veiw is something I envy and despise at the same time.

I understand both points of veiw in any conflict so I am incapable of hatred and blind finger-pointing blame.

Wish I could hate the terrorists, wish that would make me feel better in some way about this tragedy.

[> [> [> Re: Terrorism as a world phenomena... -- Dedalus, 10:34:14 09/12/01 Wed

Drizzt, you're an interesting guy (or girl, as the case may be).

"A simple black and white view is something I envy and despise at the same time."

I've felt the same way. But I think it is that absolute, oppositional black and white thinking that leads to things like this.

And yeah, quite frankly, hell, I have even felt sympathy for Muslim extremists, even as I insult them. It's wierd. With me, I can see both sides. But I usually disagree with both, thus living me free to make fun of each side, which is always fun.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your "there are too many stupid people in the world" remark. Bravo. This does lend much more weight to my "People are idiots" theorem.
[> [> [> [> Re: Terrorism as a world phenomena... -- Drizzt, 13:05:10 09/12/01 Wed

Yes, people are idiots.

There is something good about that (sort of).

When there is a genius, martyre, or inspireing leader we appreciate them all the more because we see the average joe in comparison.

Average Joe; I watched a broadcast of the New York New Years party (maby it was a parade...or both). One of the costunes was a guy that looked like a slice of white bread...

His point that he made with his costune and when the reporter interviewed him was that he was an "average joe", and that was good enough for him...I respect that. I would like more smart people in the world, but I have a resigned acceptance of the status quo.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Very true .... -- Dedalus, 20:51:12 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> Birds of a feather, post together -- mundusmundi, 13:26:40 09/12/01 Wed

And yeah, quite frankly, hell, I have even felt sympathy for Muslim extremists, even as I insult them. It's wierd. With me, I can see both sides. But I usually disagree with both, thus living me free to make fun of each side, which is always fun.

I can see why we get along so well. Hell, I'm almost tempted to give Phantom Menace another go! ;)

This does lend much more weight to my "People are idiots" theorem.

Well, the empirical evidence is staggering.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Birds of a feather, post together -- Dedalus, 20:59:09 09/12/01 Wed

"Hell, I'm almost tempted to give Phantom Menace another go!"

Ha! My work here is finished. It's funny, I've had a cold all week, so I've been stuck at home, but I just had to get out, so I went to a comic book store, and someone mentioned Episode Two should begin with Jar Jar being killed, and then I mentioned I think it should begin with Jar Jar kicking one of his critics in the nuts. It achieved laughter, but there ya go. I always side with the underdog, remember? And I did try to explain that he was right out of Grimm's fairy tales, and thus fit in the saga. Think the Frog Prince.

If you're interested, go check this out. It was written by a Jungian analysis who did a brilliant book on the Old Trilogy. It's pretty short, but it will get you going where I'm coming from -

Your response would be interesting, MUNDI!

P.S. Did the name of the Jedi Master sitting next to Yoda strike ya? Ki-Adi-Mundi?
[> not the horror of war -- anom, 08:29:19 09/12/01 Wed

"Today we in the US face the worst act of terrorism worldwide...but it is a minor tragedy compared to the horror of war."

True. So many deaths, but it doesn't really threaten the existence of the country as a whole.

"We are still a young country that has never experienced a genuine invasion force from an enemy...."

Well, there was the War of 1812. But the US hasn't been invaded within the memory of anyone living.

It occurred to me once after visiting Israel & having a conversation about how the US is lucky enough not to know what it's like to have your country invaded that the only Americans who do know what it's like are immigrants & refugees from countries that have been invaded.
[> [> Re: not the horror of war -- Drizzt, 09:59:36 09/12/01 Wed

We in the US have the best country in the world( add patriotic music), despite any social problems. Hmm, lots of patriotic citizens of other countries might disagree...that is a requirement of patriotism; loyalty.

The US is the Strongest and most diverse country in the world, but with that strength comes arrogence. These deaths are a strike at a prime symbol of america; capitalism and our precious idea that free markets are the best option of distribution of recources. The only things long term that I hope happens RE this Tragedy is that we learn to be humble and less chauvanistic in world politics & of course improved security measures for future terrorism.

Overconfidence(Arrogence) is a weakness... Glory was supremely overconfident and that combined with Ben's "little pinch of humanity" were the two reasons the Scoobies could kill a minor god...

PS. I have wanted an excuse to say "Overconfidence is a weakness" for many years; it is my oppinion, just have not had a relivant issue to tie it into.
My thanks, above and beyond... -- TinySnapDragon (aka pjorgensen), 20:53:11 09/11/01 Tue

Today was truly a very difficult time for us all, I am certain. Tragedy, chaos, mayhem and hardship ensued following the attacks on NY and DC - however, this board and the chat that many posters attended helped me maintain my sanity despite the external factors that whittled at it. For that, I am truly grateful and wanted to express my gratitude and the peace all you kind souls shared.

My fondest thanks...
[> People pulling together -- Liquidram, 23:20:46 09/11/01 Tue

It is times like today that bring us together and true humanity for our fellow man rules. A disaster does not discriminate. It does not care what color your skin is, whether you are young, old or how much money you have.

One photo today stood among all the others for me. A man in an expensive business suit was standing over a ragged homeless man assisting him with an oxygen tank. The barriers were gone - simply a man helping another man.

Immediately after our Loma Prieta earthquake on 10.17.89 a major structure of a main freeway collapsed. One of the neighborhoods it was close to was a project area in Oakland which was quite derelict and known for drugs, gangs and poverty. These people who lived here were the first on the scene, risking their lives to climb into an unstable structure, shaking with constant aftershocks, to try to rescue the very same people who they professed to hate the lifestyles of.

Humanity is a wonderful thing. Too bad it's simple goodness is not enough for everyone in this world that we must share.
[> Do not give in to hate and fear...... -- Rufus, 00:17:21 09/12/01 Wed

It is in our darkest times that we remember as a human race we are strongest when we unite against hate and fear. Though the terrorist seeks to divide us they have only made us stronger. I like to think that most people are decent and wish to live in peace. The terrorist seeks to destroy that peace and inject hate into our lives. Fight that fear and come together to triumph over those who use death and destruction to get their way. I have been sad all day as I struggle to find an answer to explain the actions of these lost pitiful people who can only use the name of their beliefs to destroy. Evil lives in the heart and mind of us all, only we can resist that urge to return hate with hate. Our strength will be in our ability to unite to fight those who threaten our existance. I pray for those who died today, the innocents, and those to sought to help them. I pray for the families who have lost so much. I pity the people who are so lost that they needed to kill to be important. I pray for those who work so hard to protect us, the soldier, the emergency workers, all those who work to keep us united. I have to work so hard to resist the urge to lower myself into the abyss that spawned the hateful actions of today. I feel like I want to kill them all and I am ashamed of my urge to avenge, in the most bloody way, my brothers and sisters that died today. I thank all who have written such kind words in the face of such evil. We must stay together, not separate out of fear. Help each other to survive these times and not succumb to hate and revenge. It's the small acts of kindness I saw today that reminded me why we are all so valuable, be we rich or poor, differ in race or religion. As individuals we can only do so much, but add together all our contributions and we have a great force to counteract the evil we have seen today. Everyone be safe, remember that we are not alone, comfort each other. I thank you all for your friendship.
[> [> ...or to shame -- anom, 12:45:17 09/12/01 Wed

"I have to work so hard to resist the urge to lower myself into the abyss that spawned the hateful actions of today. I feel like I want to kill them all and I am ashamed of my urge to avenge, in the most bloody way, my brothers and sisters that died today. I thank all who have written such kind words in the face of such evil."

Rufus, please don't be ashamed--that's a normal human feeling to have, along w/all the others (OK, so is shame...). I know I've chastised some people who've posted who don't seem to be working so hard against that abyss, & I stand by my responses to them, but their reactions & yours are natural. What matters is not to give in to that response, which you haven't. But if we don't accept it as human, that can extend to not considering people who have those feelings against us to be human, even when they do give in to it. That's especially hard, but especially necessary now. Even the worst of us--& of them--is human. When we deny that, it's the 1st step toward becoming like them. On TV shows, those who do terrible things can be portrayed as monsters. They're not human, so it's OK to kill them & that makes things better. In real life, seeing people as monsters just perpetuates the cycle & makes things worse.
[> [> [> Very well said -- mundusmundi, 13:15:33 09/12/01 Wed

[> Re: My thanks, above and beyond... -- VampRiley, 05:33:34 09/12/01 Wed

I sure I speak for everyone when I say that we're glad we helped maintain your sainity.

Colossal events of destruction -- JBone, 21:25:17 09/11/01 Tue

In the year 1862 was the last that this many Americans lost their lives on a single day. That makes today the deadliest in the history of the U.S. In other words, other than a self-inflicted day of war, today is the bloodiest in American history. This can not be rationalized or validated by any foreign power. I hesitate using the term foreign power, especially if the chances of said country will not exist shortly. Ramifications of this day are incredibly beyond any comments I may sputter out. The Canadian Peter Jennings aside, Hell's coming with us.
[> Re: Colossal events of destruction -- Nina, 22:09:22 09/11/01 Tue

Today I thought about Buffy. About those 6 apocalypses. The way we deconstructed these things here. So safely in the comfort of our homes and work offices... Apocalypse? That's for movies or tv shows!

People go to see Godzilla to have a good time, they go on roller costers to have a good time. They like to be afraid to have a good time. When it becomes real, there are just no words we can utter that can describe how we feel. It's not about brains. For the first time I have seen the Prime minister of Canada (mayor of Montreal and Prime minister of Quebec) being so shocked that they couldn't give a proper speech. For the first time I have seen these men who treat the other terrorist attacks rather lightly treating this one like they suddenly understood what it meant. They were not men in suits anymore, they were human beings. I think that this day has changed history forever. We see wars everywhere on the globe. Right at this minute someone is dying because there's a war. But for us, it's different. It's the first time that war comes to us from the exterior. We are not watching another continent being under attack. It's the land of America. Now it's personal. It's not a movie, it's not news from another country (well it is for me, but it's still so near).

JBone I feel stupid to ask this. I have knowledge of the World Wars, but my American history is pretty bad... what happened in 1862?
[> [> I think he is referring to the Battle of Antietem (sp?) during our Civil War. -- A8, 22:14:58 09/11/01 Tue

I think they mentioned on the news that that was the previous single largest loss of life on US soil in a day.
[> [> [> Thanks! -- Nina, 22:16:16 09/11/01 Tue

[> [> [> Roughly 22,000 dead at Antietam, hopefully this will be well short of that -- Rattletrap, 06:01:56 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> Dead at Antietam, hopefully this will be well short of that -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 10:23:20 09/12/01 Wed


US Army War College stats on Antietam; c. 7000 KIA on that day. Probably the other 15,000 died days, weeks, months later of wounds received.

That makes September 11, 2001 the worst day in US history for deaths on a single day.
[> [> Re: Colossal events of destruction -- anom, 10:40:33 09/12/01 Wed

"For the first time I have seen these men who treat the other terrorist attacks rather lightly treating this one like they suddenly understood what it meant."

I think treating terrorism elsewhere lightly is part of the problem & contributes to leaving us vulnerable, maybe even makes us targets. Vulnerable because we get comfortable even as we say "oh, that's awful" when it happens someplace else & don't take the necessary precautions, or take them for a while & then get lax (like airport security--it gets routine, then folks relax about it) till something else happens. I just heard ex-governor of NY Mario Cuomo interviewed on the radio. He said that in '93 when the WTC was bombed with a rental truck in its underground garage, people saw that "only" 6 people were killed, the damage to the bldg. was fixed, & not much later things went back to "normal." A few precautions were put in place, but not much was really done. Targets because some of the people who carry out those attacks elsewhere may see us thinking we're above it all & decide to show us we're not.

"They were not men in suits anymore, they were human beings. I think that this day has changed history forever."

I hope you're right, but I'm not very optimistic. This isn't the 1st time "it can't happen to us" has been proved wrong, & the change didn't last long. Before the '70s, embassies were sacrosanct. It was a shock the 1st time terrorists attacked an embassy. But it happened again, & more times; sometimes it was a gov't. that did it. After a while it wasn't so shocking anymore, & the US didn't do anything beyond making statements. Then Marxist students in Iran seized US embassy personnel after the Shah was ousted & the ayatollahs took over (yes, it was actually the students, though they turned the hostages over to the gov't. later; the alliance fell apart soon after the hostages were sent home). Then the US got all threatening (not that it did any good), but it was more like "how dare they do this to us?" than "how dare they attack an embassy?" It probably just made us look more arrogant to the rest of the world. It was scary how jingoistic some of my supposedly liberal friends became.

And I remember after the Oklahoma City bombing, people there were saying "we thought this couldn't happen here in the heartland--just places like NYC." Like it was acceptable for it to happen in NY! People want to find ways to exempt themselves, to feel safe--"that won't happen to me because I'm [fill in the blank w/something reassuring]." So...I'm not sure how much or for how long this will change things.

Hope this post hasn't been too much of a downer. Too much of that out there already. Maybe if the leaders can extend their understanding of "what it meant" beyond North America, it will make a difference.
[> [> [> Exuse me, but what is "jingoistic"? -- Drizzt, 12:53:29 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> Jingoistic: extreme nationalism marked esp. by a belligerent foreign policy -- mundusmundi, 13:14:09 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> kneejerk superpatriotic -- anom, 13:18:03 09/12/01 Wed

Or, according to Merriam-Webster, "extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy"
[> [> [> [> [> Thanks both for the definitions:) -- Drizzt, 13:37:38 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Colossal events of destruction -- Nina, 13:26:38 09/12/01 Wed

"Hope this post hasn't been too much of a downer. Too much of that out there already. Maybe if the leaders can extend their understanding of "what it meant" beyond North America, it will make a difference."

On the contrary, I really appreciate your thoughts. Makes me see things through another perspective. It is true that we have a tendency to forget. To reassure ourselves.
Yesterday -- Marie, 02:03:34 09/12/01 Wed

Haven't been near a computer for a few days. Was off yesterday, turned the telly on to see the news, and like the rest of the world was glued to the set for most of the rest of the day, watching in horror the events as they happened, more or less.

Don't have anything to say about terrorism that hasn't already been said here. Just so relieved to see the names of so many I consider friends on the board this morning.

Just a few days ago, I watched the news that a bomb had gone off at a school in Ireland, and it was just another bomb, y'know? An almost everyday occurrence here. Yesterday's events were something else. No words for it. I moan about the weather here, but, boy, today I'm glad I live where I live, and that my little boy is safe. And I think of the children I saw cheering and clapping on the streets of Palestine, and my blood runs cold.

My thoughts are with you and yours.

[> Re: Yesterday -- mundusmundi, 06:13:11 09/12/01 Wed

And I think of the children I saw cheering and clapping on the streets of Palestine, and my blood runs cold.

Those people aren't doing anyone any good, but I hope everyone bears in mind that extremist views do not reflect the majority. Most Arabs and/or Muslims abhor violence (and despite what some on the radio talk-shows seem to think, not all Muslims are Arabs, nor are all Arabs Muslims), and doubtless some of them were among the victims yesterday.

Glad you're okay where you are. Thanks very much for your thoughts. And I'm sure that even among the irreligious here, people's prayers are appreciated as well. :)
[> [> note that I include myself in that last statement :) -- mm, 06:15:25 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> Re: Yesterday -- Humanitas, 09:10:02 09/12/01 Wed

One thing that I noticed yesterday was that the media were very careful to periodically mention the statements by Islamc and Islamic-American groups denouncing terrorist acts. Nobody wants a repeat of the fiasco that followed the OKC Bombing, when the mob got hold of some poor innocent man, because the media speculated wildly (and wrongly) about the culprit in that case.
[> [> Re: Yesterday -- anom, 09:38:48 09/12/01 Wed

"Those people aren't doing anyone any good, but I hope everyone bears in mind that extremist views do not reflect the majority. Most Arabs and/or Muslims abhor violence (and despite what some on the radio talk-shows seem to think, not all Muslims are Arabs, nor are all Arabs Muslims), and doubtless some of them were among the victims yesterday."

Thanks, mm. I'm glad you said that. Too many Westerners (maybe esp. Americans) forget that. I heard on public radio that all those pictures of Palestinians celebrating were from one town (Nablus?) & that it wasn't happening elsewhere. I only saw the pictures on one station (I've mostly been listening to radio) & I don't get the impression the TV reports are so balanced.

Someone on an email list I subscribe to wrote: "I saw a revolting picture of Palestinians in Jersusalem exulting. How can they imagine that this helps them? What do they think they will gain from it? And I feel terrible for Palestinians and other Muslims of good character all over the world. They are bound to suffer." I've already heard about Arab org's. in the US getting their websites bombarded w/hate email. I hope we can all stand up and make the kind of points mundusmundi & the person who wrote the above quote did. And I say this as a religious Jew & a Zionist (we aren't all hardliners either, although some on the right would have you believe we are).
[> [> [> Yesterday -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 10:46:00 09/12/01 Wed


I think the press helps foment these views. The shots of dozens of Palestinians (many teenagers -- and we know how many teenagers have poor judgment) look like hundreds, and, if hundreds, look like thousands. Such a shot is a great visual and good for TV news ratings.

A shot of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who may be sitting quietly at home going "Oh SHIT! This is not going to be good for us" is not going to make the news.
[> [> [> [> What you said, very true -- mundusmundi, 12:41:12 09/12/01 Wed

The shots of dozens of Palestinians (many teenagers -- and we know how many teenagers have poor judgment) look like hundreds, and, if hundreds, look like thousands. Such a shot is a great visual and good for TV news ratings.

Speaking of teenagers (and I'm not lumping in the thoughtful ones who post here and elsewhere), today I was sitting outside on the patio of my favorite coffee shop, soaking up the sun and feeling thankful for a moment's peace, when a pair of adolescent girls sat nearby with their gag-inducing Marlboros and proceeded to say a bunch of dumb things. Their consensus seemed to be that this whole tragedy was a real bummer, man, a major blow to their social lives. I started to get mad, but then my thoughts turned to exactly what you said. Must. Be. Tolerant.
[> [> [> [> [> Teenagers' reactions -- Humanitas, 13:12:14 09/12/01 Wed

Kids' perspective on things is often like that. They haven't grown into a sense of connection with the rest of the world yet, so they can only relate to a tragedy in terms of how it affects them.

Cassandra: [The dance] needs to be a socially concious theme, one that reflects the students' growing involvement in the world around them.

Boys [in unison] : Downer!

--BtVS Film

At least, that's the way they talk in front of each other. My experience is that teenagers, in particular, feel like expressing any sort of empathy to another kid is like admitting a weakness, for which they can be attacked. If you can get them one-on-one, I think you'll often find that they feel quite differently.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: What you said, very true -- Nina, 13:15:17 09/12/01 Wed

From the shooting I saw (and it must be the same) many of these "teenagers" didn't seem to have 10 years old. They seemed much way younger than that. They were rejoicing because their parents were. What's so awful is to see that they were not born like this, but taught to hate a nation and to rejoice when that nation is under attack. I am convinced that if you asked those little boys what it really means, they would repeat a bunch of words they were told, but nothing personal. That's what scares me the most. They are instruments and they are the future of their town.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Why atheists fear religion so much... -- OnM, 13:51:41 09/12/01 Wed

*** I am convinced that if you asked those little boys what it really means, they would repeat a bunch of words they were told, but nothing personal. That's what scares me the most. They are instruments and they are the future of their town. ***

One of the essential unsolvable dilemmas in being non-religious and a promotor of civil liberties for individuals is how do you deal with wanting maximum freedom for people-- including their desire for inclusion in religious thinking or group participation thereof-- and simultaneous recognition of the fact that this often leads to nonsensical ideas being passed on to the children of these people, who, indeed, are the future of the world as we know it.

After all, if one espouses political ideas to one's children, those ideas could be logically argued against because they ultimately originate with a human mind, be it Gandhi or Saddam. How do you argue with someone who gets his directions from God (who of, course, by definition, is infallable)?

Well, of course, you can't. Logic fails, people die (but only for the best possible reasons, of course).

Sorry, still upset and perturbed, but it's a valid question.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why atheists fear religion so much... -- Cleanthes, 14:39:23 09/12/01 Wed

There's religion and there's this stuff, though.

When the Taliban blew up those ancient statues of Buddha some months ago, I told my family we'd eventually be in a war with Afghanistan. People who blow up ancient monuments have passed beyond the scope of diplomatic argument.

Hopeful caveat:

When the Japanese began their kamikaze attacks in 1944, no one could imagine that thousands of men and planes could be expended on such an endeavor. Yet the Japanese recruited over 25000 for their force and over 4000 attacks were made. After the reality of this fanaticism sunk in for the Allies, people could not imagine that a culture and religion capable of such violence could ever be changed or moderated. Many at the time believed that every last Japanese would have to be killed. My father was among them, his best high school buddy having been killed by a kamikaze attack off Okinawa.

It's hard to realize now, but Truman received considerable criticism for not dropping MORE atomic bombs on Japan. Yet, with a total effort, total victory was achieved and there have been no more suicide bombers attacking the US from Japan. Maybe it will take the same kind of effort now, I dunno.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why atheists fear religion so much... -- Juliette, 14:45:58 09/12/01 Wed

I don't know much about Islam, but God doesn't tell anyone to kill other people, they just use religion as thier excuse. People capable of this sort of horrifc violence are fanatacists, they are completely different from genuinely 'religious' people who would never violate the sanctity of human life in this way. Too many people have killed others in the name of God when the whole Christian ethos is that no-one has the right to take another's life and we should "love our enemies." Religion is used as an excuse for violence, but its the people who commit these crimes against humanity who are responsible.

My family are from Northern Ireland, where for decades the labels 'Catholic' and 'Protestant' have been used for opposing sides of a political problem which, in truth, has little to do with the religions themselves, except that most members of one side belong to one denomination, and vice versa.

As I say, I know very little about Islam, and I'm in the UK, so I don't really know what's going on, so I hope I haven't offended anyone. I just think its important to point out that often the teachings of a religion are very much against violence, but in the hands of twisted, disturbed fanatacists they are used to excuse for the inexcusable.

My sympathy goes out to everyone involved in the attacks.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why atheists fear religion so much... -- gds, 20:22:20 09/12/01 Wed

God doesn't tell anyone to kill other people

If you believe the bible. This is not true. I became an atheist decades ago, but I was brought in a very xian environment. I well remember hearing passages from the bible "thou shall not suffer a witch to live" & another passage where god ordered some people of Isreal to kill everyone in some town. And that doesn't even count the times god took matters into his own hands & wiped out great masses of people (the flood, the plagues of Egypt, wiping out a large part of Isreal to punish the king for conducting a census ..)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why atheists fear religion so much... -- Dedalus, 20:49:23 09/12/01 Wed

This is true.

It's just a delicate and fragile situation all the way around. And sometimes, I'm not that delicate an arguer.

See, that's one the primary problems we have with the Bible. It was written by so many people over such a vast amount of time, all with different agendas, different worldviews ... I remember really getting into the Civil War (as all we Southern boys have to at one point or another), and every sermon in the North was based on the New Testament teachings and how we shouldn't own slaves, and all the ones in the South were based on the Old Testament and how we should have slaves. Very surreal. All quoting from the same text, all with scripture to back up their thinking.

It's amazing, growing up and listening to all of this, and not even really stopping to question it. I did the same thing. It wasn't until I was 21 that I put it all together (or started to anyway). Think about the plagues, man. Egypt. God killing the first born children because of the politics of their fathers. Chilling stuff. Can you imagine if the USA committed infantcide like that today?

Actually, what's more chilling is the fact that some preachers around the Bible Belt seem to think the terrorist attacks were due to our godlessness, and that maybe they can be used to get people to "turn back to the Lord." The Trinity Broadcast People are getting very hyper right about now, declaring the End is Near, and all that. Of course, they also predicted thanks to Hal Lindsey that Y2K was going to be the End of the World, but no one seems to care enough to follow up on these things.

I myself fall right down the middle. I'm both believer and heretic, monk and blasphemer. It's complicated.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You should check out Jung's essay 'Answer to Job.' -- A8, 21:05:18 09/12/01 Wed

Beautiful psychoanalysis of God and his love/hate relationship with Mankind with specific reference to the Book of Job.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You should check out Jung's essay 'Answer to Job.' -- Dedalus, 21:09:12 09/12/01 Wed

Yeah, I've heard that. I do need to pick it up at some point. I've mainly read Jung via Campbell, but I did get a thick paperback book called Man and His Symbols which I've been using in my essays that is just great. I'm not sure I buy into all of it, but just like the Protestant preacher said at Jung's funeral, he did restore the intellectual dignity of the religious life.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> 'The Portable Jung' (Penguin paperback, edited by Joseph Campbell) contains this essay... -- A8, 21:53:08 09/12/01 Wed

..and most of the other famous Jung stuff (Essays on archetypes, synchronicity and so on). It is an indispensable reference book in my personal library. That book, Campbell's 'Hero With a Thousand Faces,' Bullfinch's 'Mythology,' and a few basic religious texts and you have a pretty good basic set of materials to work with.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why atheists fear religion so much... -- Juliette, 05:11:37 09/13/01 Thu

I guess when I think about my religion, I think about Christianity, mostly the Gospels. Jesus tells us to l'ove our enemies,' 'turn the other cheek' and 'love our neighbour as we love ourselves.' In answer to 'who is our neighbour;' everyone, even an enemy, is our neighbour, as in the Good Samaritan parable. Anyone who truely follows the teaching of the gospels could not contemplate taking a human life. The Old Testement usually refers to specific situations, usually suggests that if there is any smiting to be done, God should be the one doing it, and was supseeded by the teachings of the new anyway.

Again, I can only speak for Christianity, not knowing much about other religions, but I think it's a little unfair to brand all religious people as fanatics who would kill if they thought God was telling them to.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why atheists fear religion so much... -- Dedalus, 10:38:26 09/13/01 Thu

True, but as Campbell pointed out, even though Christ told Peter "put back thy sword" at Gethsemane, Peter's sword has been out ever since. I think the basic issue is that the Bible is so built on the nature of duality, it just sort of inherently breeds a very confrontational mindset. All said, it's a very complicated thing.

I was watching an X-Files rerun last night, the second one David Duchovny wrote and directed, called Hollywood A.D. It was about believers and blasphemers, Christs and Judas' ... Mulder was talking about how Hollywood had "oversimplified" and "trivialized" the X- Files, but what he was really talking about was how religion had done the same thing to ... well, religion. I think that is my main problem. Literalists and fundamentalists do that constantly, always breaking things down to the lowest common denominator. And I think that breeds fanatics.

At the same time, I'm not sure we can do without religion, or should even try to. Maybe for a little while. We need to get a clearer picture in our head now, though, one that jives a little better with the view of the universe we now have.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not Christian... -- Voxpopuli, 05:20:15 09/13/01 Thu

but I was raised in a Catholic country, where people go to church and know to which Orix‡ they belong to. Weird. I eventually dropped Christianism. My garndmother shuold be rolling in her grave, for I was brought up reading the protestant Bible. Another weird thing is that in my family we have pentecostals, candomblecists, catholics, buddhist. I wonder how we did not get into holy wars around Christmas's meals! Because, religion has everything to do with the way you see the world. It is not just an immaterial thing, it is not only about some mystical feeling, but about the way people see themselves and the world. So, each and every religion has an agenda, mine, yours, even the absence of religion can be a sort of religion (I pick on a friend saying that he belongs to the Holy Universal Church of the Kingdom of Atheism). There is no way, do far, to escape it. And the religious books are pretty tricky because they do allow different interpretations, event the Vedas can foster different interpretations! My path is largely oral, and thus very dynamic, tradition is kept by ritual, but it tends to adapt to the world rather than make the world adapt to it. Islam, Christianism, are religions of written law, read and interpretate as you want, shape the world as you feel like. From a pragmatic point of view... the world could be better without religion in general. But then we, poor lemings, would find some other justification to kill each other and control demographics. I guess today I'm on a sarcastic day. Sorry folks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What, please, is a "candomblecist"? -- Marie the ignorant, 06:27:17 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> An "Afro-Brazilian" religion, as old as can be. -- Voxpopuli, 07:02:42 09/13/01 Thu

CandomblŽ, is the general name given to a religious practice born from the interaction of several slave groups coming from African to work in the Brazilian farms as early as the sixteenth century. It hsa two main strains: the bantu and the yoruba. As the yoruba came later to the Brazilian coast, they became more active and culturally recognizable, and as the bantu came earlier (mostly to the southeast) they became more mingled with the local culture and that of the Portuguese, overlayed with the Yoruba influx. CandomblŽ practices are both a collection of African Practices (very close or equal to the actual African religious practices), indigenous ideas and white European ideas, being after all a genuinely Brazilian religion. The languages spoken vary from Portuguese, to ambundo,kikongo, yoruba, and so on, very often mixed with Portuguese. The African deities are more worshipped in Brazil than in Africa itself. The religious icons of candomblŽ are present in music, arts, popular culture, carnaval, language, even in mainstream religion (Catholicism). Since the seventies, CandomblŽ started to cut its bonds with Catholicism, slowly and steadily, becoming a cultural powerhouse in the Southeast in the Northeast (Bahia). The rites and practices, as well as its philosophycal completxities are difficult to explain in such forum (too lengthy), and there is not much literature in English about it (in Portuguese and French there is plenty). You can also say that CandomblŽ is a cousin of Vodoun (Togolese, and Haitian), Lukumi and Palo ( Cuba, and parts of Central America), which are religions born from the African diaspora, but if cousins, they are distant cousins, although Palo and CandomblŽ de Angola are more similar than Lukumi and CandomblŽ de Ketu. CandomblŽ is not a centralized religion, it is divided in nations, or roots, however each root can make rituals of other roots, as the divisions in nations, however rough, is quite new (blame it on Bahia!). The tradition is largely oral, the rites are closed, no proselitism allowed, the attachment with the community is intense as this is a communal religion, with a structure that reminds one of a strictly traditional family structure. The majority of the candomblŽ priesthood comes from lower middle class and the low class population, a picture that is changing steadily. The ethinical backgroud is very diversified (in my house we have a Japanese - born and raised in Japan - a Jewish, a Portuguese, a German, besides the local mongrel stock), and distinction based on gender, sexual orientation, colour and social status, criminal record, is not estimulated by the tradition. From this point on I believe you are not that ignorant anymore about it, should you need more information, go to a yahoogroup about CandomblŽ, and try another called Egbeodara. Folks over there are awesome.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you! -- Marie, 08:03:35 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Can only imagine how Buffy would mangle that word.;-) -- A8, 14:22:10 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Canned Dough Blitzes. ............ ;-D -- Solitude1056, 16:25:35 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> How about Condom Blintzes? Yuck. :-(P -- A8, 16:44:23 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROFL! Yes, a true Buffyism right up there with Khaki Trousers! -- Solitude1056, 17:08:41 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That was not nice, was it? -- Voxpopuli, 06:01:42 09/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's equal opportunity, hon, the humor rolls around to everything. -- Solitude1056, 06:13:16 09/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, so if I said ... -- Voxpopuli, 06:30:44 09/14/01 Fri

"God Blast America", instead of God Bless America (Good pun indeed, guys who think they're gods, blasted "America"...), out of humour, would you take it nicely "hon"?

It rolls around everywhere, you know, humour...

Got the feeling, Sol?

It is not about being a zealot (common accusation), but about trying to explain something that is dear to you, and see people poking fun at it. That is not nice at all, and I am usually pretty careful as not to show contempt for the feelings of others. It seems to me, that for the sake of "humour" this is acceptable, right?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If I started this... -- Marie, 08:39:28 09/14/01 Fri asking what it meant, I'm sorry! Voxpopuli, no-one on this board means anything offensive (apart from the trolls, that is), I'm sure - everyone has different sorts of humour and temperament, and all things are taken, and people answered, with respect for other people's feelings. I don't presume to speak for anyone else, and I'm not a clever philosphical person, or anything. I come to read what people post here because of the respect and politeness and manners they show everyone, apart from the Buffy/Angel discussions, of course! Further up the board, people are talking about rape in a lighthearted sort of manner, and, as a 'rapee' (I HATE the word 'victim', and vowed recently never to use it again in connection with myself), I had to stop myself from posting something sarcastic in reply. People don't mean to hurt others here, and everyone is entitled to say what they think here, and that's good.

Sorry if this turned into a ramble.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Which Marie is this? ;-) -- Solitude1056, 09:21:54 09/14/01 Fri

Aww, Buffyisms are good, silly things. And we need all the good silly things we can get, right now. I've actually come up with a few more, after seeing someone above refer to the Tally-Me-Banana (Taliban), and I thought up The Lemurs as a Buffyism for Thelema (which cracks me up no end). There's a few others but I'll save 'em for a good long post once everyone's returned to a healthy state of non-humor-impairment. It's been a rough week. ;-D
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tali-Me-Banana...actually my mom's quip -- the unfunny yet whimsical mundusmundi, 11:37:57 09/14/01 Fri

[> [> how do you know >sigh< -- anom, 20:36:38 09/12/01 Wed

mm, I hope you don't mind that I quoted you ("...Most Arabs and/or Muslims abhor violence....") on an email list that has also been discussing this. Then someone on the list asked (very unpleasantly) how I knew, or how you did, that this was true. So I know it's ridiculous to even need to ask, but do you have any particular expertise on Islam & its believers? & could you supply any sources someone like that might consider reputable?
[> [> [> don't mind at all -- mundusmundi, 23:10:35 09/12/01 Wed

I guess the obvious source would be for some of these people to actually meet one. But since that probably wouldn't go over well, if it's texts they're after, David Lamb's "The Arabs," John Esposito's "Understanding Islam" (not sure that's the exact title) and most anything by Karen Armstrong ("A History of God," "Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet," etc.) are all good intros to the subject (though Armstrong, a former nun, has a bit of an axe to grind with Christianity that some might find offputting).

One way I approach this subject with students is to show the similarities between Judaism- Christianity-Islam. All monotheistic, all worship the same God; Allah isn't like Zeus or something. Many Xtians are surprised to learn that Muslims revere Jesus as a great prophet ("Isu," in the Qu'ran, the miracle worker) and also Mary, and that they accept the Virgin Birth.

Islam also respects Jews and Christians as "People of the Book," and indeed treated them relatively well within the early Islamic Empire. The marvelous recent PBS documentary "Islam: Empire of Faith" (narrated by Ben Kingsley) discusses how the Muslims in Jerusalem shared a holy structure with the Christians for several years, alternating services on Fridays and Sundays. It's also worth noting that the U.S.'s longest treaty is with an Arab/Muslim country: Morocco. The leader back in 178? was impressed with this upstart colonial nation and wrote George Washington a letter of support.

One could I suppose cite passages from The Qu'ran, but quoting ancient scriptures is always dicey, since for every beautiful passage you may find one less edifying. It is implied, however, that Jews and Christians may also be forgiven on Judgment Day and get eternal life. In many ways, a very inclusive faith. (And a very generous one -- "Generosity is the disposition of those who dwell in paradise." Ok, so there's one passage.)

I actually just signed on tonight because I'm unable to sleep. If I can think of anything else tomorrow, I'll let you know. I will quote simply a Muslim scholar from TV last night who said softly and simply, "Religion is about life, not death."
[> [> [> [> Re: correction on dates -- mundusmundi, 23:20:20 09/12/01 Wed

1777 (according to Lamb): the year Sultan Mohammed ben Abdallah III granted the U.S. a safe haven from Barbary pirates and British warships, making Morocco the first country to recognize the United States.
[> [> [> [> an amusing but enlightening bit -- Solitude1056, 07:23:51 09/13/01 Thu

would be to watch (of all things) the Terry Jones series about the Crusades. It's three or four videos, detailing the Christian intent and the Moslem response, crusade by crusade. While educating oneself about that period in history, one may also find that Terry Jones' excellent and amiable (and hilarious) descriptions help dispel some of the long-cherished notions of the Moslems as raging infidels. Oh, and while also discovering that the Christian attacks on the middle eastern countries was one of the main reasons for the very first jihad against another religion of the Book. Also, since it's less "recent" and therefore less raw, it may provide a better introduction to the historical basis behind the Moslem culture's perceptions of Christianity (and by extension, the Western European world). And it does it with great humor and enlightenment!
[> [> [> [> [> the first? -- anom, 08:55:02 09/13/01 Thu

"Oh, and while also discovering that the Christian attacks on the middle eastern countries was one of the main reasons for the very first jihad against another religion of the Book."

So the invasion of Spain in 711 doesn't count?
[> [> [> [> Re: don't mind at all -- Rattletrap, 11:35:47 09/13/01 Thu

Added sidenote: Arabic Christians pray to Allah, just as Moslems do. It is an Arabic word equivalent to the English "God" and the Hebrew "Elohim." Corroborates the idea that Jews, Christians, and Moslems are all People of the Book, despite their differences. It is never worthwhile to judge a whole group based on the actions of a few maladjusts.
[> [> [> [> [> Do you know if many Jews refer to God as Yahweh anymore? -- A8, 14:32:38 09/13/01 Thu

I know a lot of American Jews, and have not once heard one of them refer to God as Yahweh, even in synagogue. Just curious.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Do you know if many Jews refer to God as Yahweh anymore? -- d'Herblay, 15:47:48 09/13/01 Thu

It was my impression that the name of god, YHWH, was ineffable, was not to be pronounced aloud. And that in fact, because the oral tradition respected this taboo, and classical Hebrew had no way of indicating vowel sounds, we don't know how YHWH would have been pronounced. "Yahweh" is just our best guess. Adonai ("Lord") or elohim ("Almighty God," though not a name, and, I believe, just a vowel shift from Allah) would be more appropriate. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the insight. Love to learn new things. -- A8, 16:46:29 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> If it's ineffable, how do they know it at all? -- A8, 17:16:45 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good question . . . -- d'Herblay, 21:07:45 09/13/01 Thu

. . that I don't know the answer to so I'm completely speculating here.

Writing predates the 10c. BCE (?) writing of the Torah. If I recall correctly, about two years ago, archaeologists discovered evidence of phonetic writing from around 2000 BCE that predated the Phoenicians (thus destroying a coincidence dear to any philologist's heart), and may have predated Egyptian hieroglyphics. The writing was, by the way, apparently of a semetic language used by people toiling in Egypt. So it's entirely possible that the name existed in writing before it became taboo to speak it, thus being preserved in the written tradition but not the oral.

But if you're asking how they knew it in the first place, I won't speculate. Though I will remind you that according to the written tradition, He Who Is Named had a tendency to converse with His people. I could assume that He was pretty tired of being called, "Yooh Who!" all the time.

Wait! Take out the vowels and you've got . . .
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: anom would probably be the one to know -- mundusmundi, 12:07:56 09/14/01 Fri

In A History of God, Karen Armstrong doesn't mention anything that I can find on pronounciation, but she does offer this tidbit on names (and I've no idea the veracity of her claim):

"When Moses asks his name and credentials, Yahweh replies with a pun which, as we shall see, would exercise monotheists for centuries. Instead of revealing his name directly, he answers: 'I Am Who I Am (Ehyeh asher ehyeh).' What did he mean?....'Ehyeh asher ehyeh' is a Hebrew idiom to express a deliberate vagueness....So when Moses asks who he is, God replies in effect: 'Never you mind who I am!' or 'Mind your own business!' There was to be no discussion of God's nature and certainly no attempt to manipulate him as pagans sometimes did when they recited the names of their gods. Yahweh is the Unconditioned One: I shall be that which I shall be.
This really hurts -- Cynthia, 06:08:49 09/12/01 Wed

They are using Elis Island as one of the temporary morgues.

Elis Island for me represents a place of beginnings not endings.

I understand the pratical reasons, the safety reasons, they are doing this, but it still hurts.
[> Re: This really hurts -- JeniLynn, 06:44:46 09/12/01 Wed

My heart & prayers go out to everyone here in America. We will get through this.
[> Re: This really hurts -- fresne, 14:14:27 09/12/01 Wed

Like everyone else, I'm pretty much in shock here. I mean, I'm on a totally different coast. Time zones away and you see the footage and it's an assault. I feel numb. This is my country. Those are my countrymen and women dying. You try and wrap your brain around it and you can't.

I find myself crying at odd moments. Seeing that the shot of the American flag hanging from a streetlight in front of the wreckage that was the Trade Towers as emergency crews work to find the still living. Standing outside under a blue, blue sky and looking at the San Francisco skyline.

You feel angry. Want revenge. And yet, and yet...who? How? If there is a time to show that humanity and civilization run more than skin deep, it is now. Here's hoping that the American government can see through to finding and rooting out the originators of the attack rather than giving into a round of retaliatory bombing.

Fresne in San Francisco, glad that the weather is drear today to suit my mood. Yesterday was too blue and warm and pretty and surreal.
[> [> Re: This really hurts -- Dariel, 17:55:00 09/12/01 Wed

Fresne in San Francisco, glad that the weather is drear today to suit my mood. Yesterday was too blue and warm and pretty and surreal

New York weather was spectacular yesterday and today. Seems really wrong. Although a reminder that life continues in the wake of all of that destruction.
Please post when you are able. -- Wisewoman, 09:11:14 09/12/01 Wed

Thanks to everyone who took a moment to sign in yesterday and let us know they were alright.

We understand that there may be problems with internet connectivity and that the Buffy Board may not be the first thing on peoples' minds right now, but if you can just sign in to let us know you're alright. We're trying to be patient but the concern is there.

Still need to hear from Brian, Cleanthes, gds, OnM, Ryuei, and possibly others that I've missed?
[> No one asks for your life to change, not really, but it does. -- OnM, 09:52:57 09/12/01 Wed

The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. Bottom line is, even if you see them coming, you're not ready for the big moments. That's when you find out who you are.

(~sighs~) Art thus merges with the Realverse.

I stayed off the phone (and the modem) yesterday because I knew the lines would be swamped, and frankly I didn't really have anything to say. I always knew this day would come, but of course sometimes you really want to be wrong.

Just spent some time reading most of the threads below, was struck by several in particular, one of which was Voxpopuli's thoughts, coming as they do from outside the American culture of which I and probably most of the boarders here are a part of.

Vox, you are quite right, one of my great fears at the moment is that the US would go off on yet another binge of revenge seeking, when none of that will bring back all those lost lives. It is normal to desire retribution for such a heinous act, but where will it get us? The sad, sorry truth is that our leaders have let us down time and time and time again, taken the easy way out, looked the other way when we could have helped others in the world. Now this ugly act of some desperate, deranged group of fanatics is punishing us for the failures of those who are suppose to look after our interests, and I don't mean the economic ones.

I don't care to go into this now, I'm still too sad and angry, and I prefer to think of those who have suffered and lost in this tragedy, not about those who caused it.

My heartfelt best regards to all of you out there.

Peace, OnM
[> [> Glad to hear you're OK, OnM! -- Humanitas, 10:29:22 09/12/01 Wed

..And I just heard from Cleanthes, who is also alive and well.

[breathes heavy sigh of relief]
[> [> [> Dragging up the dregs! -- Brian, 12:05:51 09/12/01 Wed

Yesterday was like a long nightmare that you couldn't wake up from. Work was useless. Little done, and most people went home early. There was much craziness on the roads. What were people thinking? We had a run on gasoline. Weird. Was glued to the TV all night. Just like a train wreck. You want to turn your eyes away but you can't. My ex-wife, Deborah, called me about 10 pm and we managed to cheer each other up.

Today, many people are absent from work. Overwhelmed by the emotions of the situation. Since I left early, I came to work early to make up the time. Tonight is The Zone night for new comics. Hopefully,we can talk about comics and not reality. Real Life - always an adventure, even when you're not doing anything!

Peace, Brian
[> [> [> Re: Glad to hear you're OK, OnM! -- Cleanthes, 13:18:33 09/12/01 Wed

Thanks for your concern, Humanitas.

I'm in Florida, so far from the tragedy, although not very far from Daytona where some of these bad guys may have had pilot training.

Those I know in New York and a good friend of mine in Washington who works for the defense dept. are also okay. I feel somehow odd in even mentioning this -- in a way I should not feel the slightest bit better that no one that I know personally was hurt. There's that "no man is an island" thing.

Terrorism will continue until civilization wins or barbarity wins.
[> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse -- Dedalus, 10:48:11 09/12/01 Wed

Except there was no Buffy to save us ...

I know we're not suppose to give into the dark side, but even though I still mock most institutions, I'm still American enough to want to see stuff getting blown up. Their stuff, anyway.

I would really have liked to have seen Buffy on that flight. Kicking arse and taking names. Or Willow. Levitating off the aisle, her magic hurling carry-on luggage at the hapless hijackers. Or hell, even Werewolf Oz. Would have been a good time.

Okay, for a ridiculous sensationalist moment, someone on CNN said while reviewing footage of people scrambling down the street as the dust rose and buildings fell, it looked like something out of Independence Day. And I swear, at some point in the afternoon on Fox news, they were actually playing Independence Day music! Wacked out merging of Art and the Realverse (not that ID4 is really art).

One of the sparse funny moments yesterday was over at AICN. Talkbackers were pretty serious for once, but everyone was talking about how it was like a movie. Then someone said they were gonna wait for this one to be released on video, that they weren't buying into the hype. Then they got yelled at. Then it occured to me - that's where we are. In a really, really bad movie, with no script, or director.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, reality sucks.
[> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse -- Humanitas, 10:58:17 09/12/01 Wed

How many movies have we seen with this plot, or something similar? Yesterday, I kept expecting to see news footage of Nick Cage, or Harrison Ford, or some other action hero, re-capturing a plane and piloting it to safety. It is no surprise to me that we are percieving these events through our earlier media experiences.

God, I wish it was all just CGI and sound effects.
[> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Dedalus, 11:08:30 09/12/01 Wed

I miss Harrison Ford. I thought about Air Force One yesterday. Did I mention reality sucks?

Anyway, for more art merging nonsense, the Spider-man poster and trailer has been pulled. It depicted him swinging around the World Trade Centers. Wacked.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Liquidram, 11:53:56 09/12/01 Wed

"Anyway, for more art merging nonsense, the Spider-man poster and trailer has been pulled. It depicted him swinging around the World Trade Centers. Wacked."

I agree. If someone is ready to go in an see a movie to get away from this past couple of days, I doubt the Spiderman trailer will give them much grief. We are going to be seeing those towers as a monument in every single picture or film done before yesterday.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Dichotomy, 12:39:02 09/12/01 Wed

Along those lines, something quite inconsequential popped unbidden into my head as I watched hour upon hour of coverage: How will TV shows, especially those set in NYC (Sex and the City, Friends, NYPD Blue, Third Watch, etc.), treat this subject matter? They can't really pretend it didn't happen and I can't see Carrie and her pals whining about the perfect shoe that got away, because that would just be weird and wrong. The way I feel right now, it seems wrong to laugh at anything, to enjoy anything. When will humor seem OK? Hell-- when will any form of entertainment made after this tragedy seem right?

But then again, we eventually need to laugh and enjoy and live because, as yesterday's events have shown, we never know how much time we really have.

I think we'll all eventually decompress and resume "normal" life, but right now that's hard to imagine.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Nina, 13:10:05 09/12/01 Wed

"The way I feel right now, it seems wrong to laugh at anything, to enjoy anything. When will humor seem OK?"

During the Second World War in France (and probably elsewhere) there were a lot of comedies done during hard times. Lots of theater plays or movies to make sure people would keep hope. Laughter is essential even in times of tragedies. To keep the spirit up we need to have a positive outlook on life. If not then who ever is behind those acts wins. We have to be respectful of those who died (and those who lost loved ones) it's the least we can do, but for those of us who are alive the best thing we can do is to follow what Buffy told Dawn at the end of "The Gift": You have to be strong. Live. Live for me.

Yesterday I was shocked to even think about Buffy in all this. I was thinking:"Oh shit, no October 2nd, no Buffy. Maybe no more shooting". Well if it goes as far as that it will be very sad, but the ultimate goal of entertainment is to help us go through life and give us hope. So shows like Friends and Sex in the city will certainely suffer from all this but they are not real. They are an alternate universe. They will probably observe a moment of silence, maybe add a text on the screen before the first episode... but their mandate is to accompany us through all this. With laughter.

The Emmy were cancelled and it was very much justified. Way too close to the tragedy. Only time will tell us when it will be okay again to laugh openly, but we should keep going. If Buffy ever had some real meaning to us that's a lesson we can all now apply to our lives. My humble opinion anyway.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Humanitas, 13:17:17 09/12/01 Wed

Nina, check out today's entry on The Buffy News Wire. Jen talks about her impressions of the tragedy, and then mentions that she drove by the sets for the shows.

Life will go on. It will not be the same, but it will go on.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Nina, 13:30:31 09/12/01 Wed

Thanks! I felt so shallow to even think about it. But it seems I wasn't the only one. Maybe it's because we need a safe place. A place were we know we can't be hurt.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Dedalus, 21:28:00 09/12/01 Wed

Actually, for once, I wasn't being flippant.

When I said "art merging nonsense," I didn't mean being sensitive to the incident was nonsense. I just meant nonsense in how all this sort of travels together in the human psyche. I mean nonsense in terms of my own thoughts about werewolf Oz fighting terrorists on a highjacked airliner.

It is odd, but ... media and culture do just flow together. I feel somehow that Bruce Willis should have been on tv yesterday, a cigarette in his mouth, a machine gun slung over his shoulder, his clothes torn and bloody, saying something about "Yipee-kai-ya-motherf - " Well, you get the idea. And according to other people I've talked to, they feel the same way.

Would make for a helluva an interesting study ...

As far as being conscious of Buffy ... of course we would turn to that in times like these! This is when we need Buffy the most. I remember Liam Neeson talking about watching the first Star Wars in Belfast, and bombs were going off outside, but the entire theater was still just spellbound. God, we NEED myth right now. It provides a wonderful psychological catharsis. I think it does anytime, but especially now. I mean, anyone else feel like that? You get into a good mythic story, and it does do what myth has always done - it not only puts you in accord with the inevitables of your life, but it also relieves tensions and reduces anxiety. Both SW and Buffy have done this for me at times in my life when I really, really needed it.

And I think it's safe to say that NO ONE who hangs out on a board dedicated to Buffy and philosophy is shallow. :-)

Love all you guys.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sick of reality -- Liquidram, 22:08:50 09/12/01 Wed

For me it gets to the point where I get so sick of "reality". Before you guys decide to set up an intervention for your ole pal Liq here, let me explain.

I do not read newspapers or watch the news. I figure that if the big quake hits, I'll know it considering my geographical location.

I get SO sick of school shootings (do you know how hard it is to watch my tiny beautiful blond daughter walk away from the car every morning into her school), domestic violence, gang violence, etc. etc. etc. When I turn on the TV, watch a movie or open a book, I want to lose the reality for awhile and immerse myself in some good ole fashion unrealness.

Yesterday morning was totally normal. Pretty blue sky, warm air, bugging kids to get their teeth brushed. The ride to school was typical.... kids squabbling or laughing. I had dropped them both off and was pulling into the parking lot of my office when my sister called in tears. The sky stayed blue, but I had the almost uncontrollable urge to drive back to the schools and pick up my kids. All day long, I was glued to the computer news stories and radio, desperately trying to check in with all of my friends and family. I also spent the better part of the day in tears.

Today was not much easier. I tried to get back to normal but had to cancel customer appointments because I really couldn't see the point of doing work on a bowling website or a restaurant website or any other site (including my Lindsey character analysis). Other than a single phone call with a friend (and they know who they are) today was quite similar to yesterday. The exception being that today I decided to quit obsessing and do what I can do. Donate blood, donate my My Points to the Red Cross and go back to normal life as scary and normal as it is. Tomorrow, I may not even listen to the news.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Cleanthes, 13:34:05 09/12/01 Wed

"I miss Harrison Ford. I thought about Air Force One yesterday. Did I mention reality sucks?"

The real Air Force One evidently had some adventures yesterday.

On the life imitating arts front, though, the information coming out about the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania sounds more movie-like in its plot up to the unfortunate ending. From interviews with people who received cell & air phone calls on this flight, a group of passengers attacked the hijackers. They obviously prevented the plane from hitting whatever target it was supposed to hit. Alas, it didn't have the happiest ending. Had Hollywood written the script, they would have crash-landed the plane with most of the passengers living through the experience. Still, right now, some people on the ground in the Washington area owe their lives to some bold and heroic action to these people on that flight who succeeded in bringing that plane down with the only loss of life limited to the poor folks on the plane itself.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hadn't heard that! Wow. Talk about real heroes. -- Dedalus, 21:29:30 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Art Merging with the Realverse Again -- Maple, 17:29:04 09/13/01 Thu

Actually I was thinking of Section One today. We need Ops! We need Michael! We need Madeline! We need Walter! We need Birkoff ! We need Nikita!

Their ends are just, but their means are ruthless. With the stakes as high as they are, they must be more ruthless than the terrorists they fight.
[> [> [> Too much violence for one day. Think I'll put on The Sopranos -- mundusmundi, 13:42:28 09/12/01 Wed

"And he laughed the laugh of the damned."
[> E-mail from Ryuei, so he's okay. -- Wisewoman, 17:16:28 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> So is that everybody? -- Humanitas, 17:51:25 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> gds, purplegrrl, Wiccagrrl--anyone heard from them? -- Wisewoman, 18:10:59 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> I've heard from Pgrrl today - she's okay (and still beta-reading, too!) -- Solitude1056, 18:23:38 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Lurker Becoming Restless? -- mundusmundi, 19:21:19 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Lurker Becoming Restless? -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 02:01:30 09/13/01 Thu

I'm in the UK and therefore fine!

I can only add to the many distant voices pledging sympathy and support for all those who have been affected by the tragedy.

I haven't posted for a while but seeing how close some of the people on this board were to the events has been extremely frightening and has made me realise just how significant a global disaster has just occured.
[> [> [> [> I'm here and ok. -- Wiccagrrl, 19:55:24 09/12/01 Wed

Went down to stay/visit with my family last night, so I didn't have a chance to get online. Checking in and sending out a huge cyberhug to everyone. These events have been almost incomprehensible. I live on the West Coast, didn't personally know anyone who was lost or injured in these attacks. I started to say that I wasn't personally impacted, but...that just doesn't feel true.
[> [> [> [> I'm OK (gds) -- gds, 21:11:05 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> Thanks, guys. C'mon LBR. How about voyageofbeagle? -- Wisewoman, 21:30:46 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> or verdantheart? -- Solitude1056, 21:33:47 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> How about voyageofbeagle? -- voyageofbeagle, 04:08:33 09/13/01 Thu

Checking in this morning, safe and sound. Haven't been by this board in a while, but it is good to see everyone came through this OK. I'll be back when the new episodes start. Take care everyone!
DVD help -- Zoey, 12:25:40 09/12/01 Wed

Ok. Did I dream this or did I get an email or read a posting about Buffy DVD's for sale??? I remember even seeing the box with pictures of the caracters on front. I've looked at with no luck.
[> Re: DVD help -- Drizzt, 12:48:21 09/12/01 Wed

There are links from there to places you can get Buffy merchandise.

Below their main catagory listing is the section with merchendise sales links; currently 13 Buffy video & DVD sites listed.
[> Depends on the country in which you live. -- A8, 13:12:55 09/12/01 Wed

BtVS the movie on DVD was just released here in the US last week. I bought it and, well, uh,...yawn. The five years between its initial release and the production of the series pilot really gave Joss a good chance to revise and refine his vision. I think this DVD is only for the curious, the collector, or the bored.

As for the TV series DVD's, I believe the first 2 and possibly the 3rd season is available on DVD in the UK, but the DVD's are not region 1 (meaning they won't work on players commercially available in the US). Be wary of buying a code-free DVD player. Rumor has it that future DVD's released in the US will be encoded to thwart the code-free aspect of these more expensive, universal format players. So you may be stuck with an expensive player, and have to buy all your future DVD's (assuming you're in the US) from abroad. The US compatible BtVS the Series (Only Season 1 at first) DVD's are supposed to be available in the next few months, but don't hold your breath.

In the meantime, I suggest you check your local WB affiliate. Beginning September 24, the WB affiliate in San Francisco will begin showing old BtVS reruns weekends starting from the very first episode. I plan to tape 'em all. Fox may have lost a DVD sale. Okay, that was a hollow threat--I'll probably buy the DVD's(they are rumored to have some tasty extras included).

Hope that was helpful.

[> [> Re: Depends on the country in which you live. -- Drizzt, 13:46:08 09/12/01 Wed

I will buy the DVDs also, but there is no hurry since I can record the FX broadcast. Have not seen most of the first three seasons; looking fowrward to that allmost as much as season six.
[> [> Where'd you hear that about Fox 20, A8? -- Masq frazzled by too much ABC news streaming video, 16:00:07 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> The promos have been running on Channel 20 for weeks now... -- A8, 16:18:27 09/12/01 Wed

...complete with specific information, to paraphrase: "Buffy from the beginning (accompanying cuts from Seasons 1-4, pictures of everybody from Oz to Faith to the Master to Kendra), weekends starting September 22." I mentioned it a few weeks back, but nobody seemed to notice. Oh well, consider yourself newly on notice.

[> [> [> [> Re: The promos have been running on Channel 20 for weeks now... -- Masq, 16:54:33 09/12/01 Wed

That explains it. I haven't watched TV all summer (except a couple reruns of Angel I needed to retape in the past few weeks--but saw no promos). Only TV I've seen is ABC the last couple days *Ack*
[> [> [> [> [> Ack is right. What's watchable on ABC these days? -- A8, 17:02:13 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> News on the terrorist attacks. -- Masq, 18:01:56 09/12/01 Wed

Scope, Adolescence, Evil, and... BtVS -- Solitude1056, 13:24:11 09/12/01 Wed

This started off as a response to mundusmundi's post, but devolved/evolved enough that I figured I'd start a new thread.


It's tough, when an adolescent, to understand that the world actually really existed before you were born, and that yes... it will continue to exist after you die. I'm thinking of the excellent essay written by some guy named Mundusmundi, about Buffy's perception of history and how it changed as she matured. (If you've not read it, ahem, I recommend it. Heh.) And fact is, my housemate's daughter - at 18 - is only now beginning to demonstrate even a remote understanding of the world outside her small scope. When the planes were crashing into the twin towers, she was sitting on the side of the road with a blown transmission. She stopped by the house last night with a friend to get her father's credit card (of course), and was utterly uninterested in the horrendous tragedy. She saw her sudden non-mobility - and resulting inability to go to some party - as the greater tragedy. A seemingly callous point of view, but natural given that she's barely old enough to glimpse what it's like to love as deeply as a parent or lover, let alone understand the pain of losing lives and loves. I think adolescents do comprehend those losses, but having only been through it once or twice, they tend to see every minor loss as "end of the world" and therefore such a huge loss as the twin towers becomes one more "end of the world," and it's not even a true end, unless they themselves are somehow personally linked to it. (The attack on the Pentagon didn't even show up on her radar, so to speak.)

It takes time, and experience, to understand and assimilate the connections between people, and that's the loss that we're feeling today. A loss of trust, a loss of safety, and a severe loss of just the intangible human kind: there are people, now, that we know personally, who won't be coming back. It doesn't take six degrees; in many cases, it's only two. My mother's lost several friends; a good friend of mine has lost two step-brothers. My connection to them grieves on their behalf. Teenagers, on the other hand, haven't solidified their connections, so they're distanced from such things. They require a first-hand contact to even begin to feel the impact, it seems to me.

At the same time, I am curious about the ages of the terrorists, and reminded of a commentator yesterday who remarked that the majority of extremist members in the middle east (in every religious front) tend to be males between the ages of sixteen and twenty-six. Just young enough to still believe themselves invulnerable, still idealistic, still aggressive, still flooded with the sense that they're distinct and above and distanced from the need for connections. Like I said last night on the ivyweb chat, it reminds me also of my housemate's observation that for centuries, the life span was short, thus our ruling folks tended to be... young males, between the ages of sixteen and twenty-six. Just what we needed running a country, if we're in love with the idea of constant, aggressive warfare. Young people are not only idealists, they're liberals in the sense of 'risk' and 'incautious reaction,' as opposed to conservative.

I recall the comment made by a friend, that she was a liberal until she grew up and realized she had something to lose. By that she didn't mean that she started voting for a different political party, but that she was aware of the consequences and less willing to risk a loss for an action without significant gain. More cautious. And same here: I used to wander through DC's Shaw, in neighborhoods still burnt from the riots in the sixties, completely drunk and barefoot to boot. (And I'm caucasian, btw.) Now when I think of driving into DC, I lock my car, park in bright-lit areas, and have my car keys ready from a block away. I value my life, my job, my dogs, my belongings, and I'm not about to risk them by doing something stupid like making myself a target in bad neighborhoods and dark streets. But when I was nineteen, life was simpler, and there was nothing so sweet as cheating death and the consequences. It seems that a major part of maturing is the recognition that you may cheat death, but you can never escape the consequences. There are always consequences.

Which brings us back around again to Joplin's line, "freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." Ah, the idealism of the young. I'm sure that suicidal terrorists consider themselves free, and above the connections to humanity, because they've got nothing to lose and see "the cause" as gaining from their death and/or risks. They can't see past the scope of their own little cause to realize that each action has an immeasurable impact on every connection, spreading out from them in larger and larger radiating waves. A butterfly in the Azores, and two towers in an urban coastal city...

And since I promised I'd bring it around to BtVS, and the thread that started before yesterday's nightmare... the question of "who would you be as a vampire?" comes back to me. We can't fathom ourselves without a conscience, for the most part - we live with one, whether we like it or not, and many of us practice a sort of mindfulness of our place in the connection of things. Being philosophers, after all, we all tend to look at how each thing interconnects and moves us along to the next concept. But a vampire, in a sense, is an independent entity - or, at least, it's an entity living in feigned ignorance of its interdependence. The closest we can get to that state of mind is to return to adolescence. From the vampiric point of view, we would be convincing ourselves that we are without a moral compass; we would be, in effect, denying the connections that exist between ourselves and everything else. We would have to distance ourselves from the greater, and insist on judging things from a personal-only point of view in which we are the master character in our own little starring vehicle.

(That's also why I think our societies, as a whole organism, are adolescent.) But be that as it may... vampires are a quintessential symbol for evil, because of that crucial detail: they don't know what's going on outside them, and they don't care. It doesn't affect them personally, then it doesn't matter. Their wants, needs, wishes, goals and intentions comprise the whole scope of their existence, and the possibility of placing themselves in someone else's shoes is therefore an impossible leap. There are no shoes that exist other than theirs.

I ramble, but I'm hoping the rest of you can take it from here...
[> Re: Scope, Adolescence, Evil, and... BtVS -- Cactus Watcher, 13:42:22 09/12/01 Wed

Thanks for sharing, Sol. It was one of the most insightful postings I've seen.
[> Re: Scope, Adolescence, Evil, and... BtVS -- Humanitas, 14:02:13 09/12/01 Wed

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the seam Europe is the less... Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tools; it tolls for thee."

--John Donne, Meditation 17

When Donne was a young man, his poetry was beautiful, but philosophically shallow. He was more inclined to write a poem to talk a girl into bed. When he got older, he became more aware of the spiritual, and his writing reflected that. So it is with most of us, I think.

There is a reason why the Constitution requires that the President be at least 35 years old. Not that age gaurantees wisdom, but it tends to increase that sense of connection.

We were all diminshed by the deaths of all those innocents yesterday, and we will also be diminished by the deaths of any whom we punnish for yesterday's events. That's a hard and unpleasant truth to face. As Buffy said, "The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it." Symbolicly, her connection to Dawn through "Summers blood" represents our connection with each other, and for all humankind. She gave her life to save not only Dawn, but the SG, Spike, Angel, and everybody else, including those who were not her friends.
[> Re: Scope, Adolescence, Evil, and... The Draft -- OnM, 14:11:20 09/12/01 Wed

Your comments clearly support a concept that I've held for many's the long decade... that military conscription looks first to 18-19-year-olds not primarily because they are young and fit-- although obviously, that helps-- but because they often lack the life experience and therefore the sense of consequences that you describe.

Put more bluntly, they are nicely predisposed to military brainwashing, since they already lean to an agressive, reactionary modus mentus.

This is one reason why I get a little twinge of disgust when I hear the shills stating that 'It's not just a job, it's an adventure!!'.

Just ask the guy at the receiving end of the bullet or the bomb how much of an adventure it all is.
[> Too thoughtful a post for me to even express. Thanks. -- mundusmundi, 14:27:15 09/12/01 Wed

[> Re: Scope, Adolescence, Evil, and... BtVS -- gds, 20:59:30 09/12/01 Wed

This remind's me of Xander's comment to Anya: "That humanity thing's still a work in progress, isn't it?"
[> Re: Wow. Amazing post, Sol. Beautifully expressed and thought out. -- Dedalus, 21:51:52 09/12/01 Wed

[> Re: Scope, Adolescence, Evil, and... BtVS -- Lurker Becoming Restless, 02:18:45 09/13/01 Thu

Excellent post, Sol. I've just turned 18 and I see some of the things you have described in my friends and in myself...and sadly in some adults as well.
[> This is the sort of post... -- Marie, 06:19:37 09/13/01 Thu

.. that keeps bringing me back to this board, time after time. Thanks, Sol.

Do you think, then, that all vampires have teenage mentalities, or that all teenagers have an inherently evil streak, which, hopefully, they grow out of? Bringing me to the next question - can vampires (without souls) grow, not older, but up?

[> Re: Ok, now I can convey a little.... -- mundusmundi, 12:08:05 09/13/01 Thu

Like I said earlier, really wonderful post. It's got me remembering past tragedies that knocked me out of my comfortably sheltered life.

When I was 11 years old, Reagan was shot. I heard the news from classmates laughing and jumping around in the school yard. (Ah, the Phoenix Public School System at its finest.) Can't imagine why it was so hilarious -- unless they were Carter supporters -- and I can't even remember what my reaction was. Confusion and numbness seem to ring a bell.

When I was 16, the Challenger exploded. The faculty wheeled out a TV during lunch break and broadcast the calamity. Whoops and gasps reverberated around the cafeteria. Most everyone agreed it was "cool." Probably confused and numb here too.

When I was 26, and a TA at Marquette, my boss invited an elderly woman, a Holocaust survivor, to speak at the Western Civ lecture. She was plain-spoken yet eloquent. Afterward, a pair of students were walking up the aisle together, and one said dippily, "That was soooooooo sad," as if they had just watched Terms of Endearment. They had heard the woman's words, but didn't grasp their meaning.

I'm not bashing teenagers. I'm just now 31, and I wonder if these examples we've been hashing out are indeed reflective of the general attitude of today's youth. I wonder what my own response to all this would have been at a younger age. Perhaps I would think these images were "cool" -- or, perhaps in the Jungian/Campbellian/Dedalusian sense, sublime in the way monstrosities can be ("sublime" in terms the awestruck horror it invoked, NOT the definition of "high moral or spiritual worth," so no flaming please anyone). Perhaps comparatively smaller-scale horrors, like the Columbine shootings, would hit me closer to home.

You're quite right, I think, about how our perspectives widen as we get older. Or at least they should. Terrorists and their supporters, like the Tali-Me-Banana regime in Afghanistan, truly are adolescent -- or is are they prepubescent? -- in terms of their short-term solutions and rigidly confined world view. I'll be damned if I know what the solution is. But like Buffy at crunchtime, I hope that we're smart enough, and that by some miracle the opportunity presents itself, that will enable us to think outside the box. Of course, as Michael Shermer writes in The Borderlines of Science, in order to think outside the box, we have to first know what's in the box. If anything good comes out of this, I hope that it will enable us to look closer at the complexities and connections, the beauty and horror, of the wider world in which we live.
[> [> The days we remember, and the point we realize -- Solitude1056, 13:33:57 09/13/01 Thu

From the amusing point of view, when I studied theology, my professor had a number of wonderful lectures (and it didn't hurt that his minor was in theatre at Yale). When we rolled around to Tillich, my professor's lecture was an eloquent diatribe on the nature of symbols and signs. To illustrate his point, he spoke of being in graduate school in Cambridge, England. On his way home from class, he passed by the American Embassy offices, and the flag was at half-mast. John F. Kennedy had been shot. He hadn't heard the news, in class, but the flag, flapping wildly and defiantly at half-mast against the gray sky, is burnt into his brain forever. America was in mourning, and he had no idea why, yet, but he immediately took pause at the instinctive recognition of that use of the symbol. And in that moment, the symbol itself gained another meaning, of the defining moment wherein a group of people recognize a symbol's power and forever associate the event with the symbol.

He concluded, "after all, who doesn't remember where they were, when they got the news that JFK was shot?"

"I don't," I interrupted. He practically froze at the podium, his fist still raised, a look of shock on his face, replaced by dismay as I took the wind out of his sails by pointing out that my mother was a sophmore in high school when JFK was killed. So much for me being part of, and associating with, that defining moment.

However, later this prompted several of us to discuss what could be the defining moment for our generation. I know where I was when Reagan was shot, but it surprised me, at most. It didn't occur to me that presidents could get shot, I suppose. I remember Elvis dying, but it didn't make sense 'cause I didn't know who he was other than as a name. I remember where I was when the Shuttle exploded, but again, it was more surprise than anything else. A momentary blip on the radar screen of my adolesence. Most of us were raised in the second half of the Vietnam Conflict, and I'm sorry to any military folks here, but the Gulf War just didn't do it for me. I don't even remember the date, or the year, just that it happened while I was in college. But I do remember - distinctly - the moment where my small world ended, truly, and I realized the scope of the world past my own horizons.

I was a sophmore in college, and desperately unhappy with the small college I attended. As many young adults do sometimes, I felt trapped and confined with a dearth of possibilities. Rather than take my instinctive option to escape the severe depression through suicide, I fled to visit a friend just outside of the Capital city. There, I spent a day trying to get my head together and realize there had to be options other than just college or death. That night, my friend called me to join him in the living room. The television was broadcasting, live. It was late on a Thursday night: November 9th, 1989. The Berlin Wall had fallen.

At that moment, watching people my age ripping at the wall, dancing in the streets, celebrating, crying, laughing, I realized: there's more to this world than just me. Hell, there's a lot more than just me. The symbol of that wall falling remains a defining moment in my life, because it's the moment I realized that I'm part of a larger community. There's no requirement that I know someone personally who was there, or had suffered under the separation of Berlin... the only requirement was the realization of my connection to humanity, based on my recognition that I could set aside my own issues and celebrate with them, even if I was five thousand miles away.

Strangely, I am reminded of Spike watching Angel & Buffy fight. He says, surprised, "he's going to kill her," and then shrugs, walking away. There's no connection, no sense that her reason for fighting is anything worthwhile because of its universal intentions. His own motivations are simply that he likes things the way they are, including those happy meals on legs. His connections to humanity (on any level) are fundamentally minimal. And it seems to me that Spike, over the past season, has matured far faster than Angel, but they have both moved through similar arcs, of recognizing their connections to some kind of greater.

Angel's passage of despair was frankly boring to watch, for me. More adolescent tripe, and I've been there before, I went through it first-hand. I have little sympathy for someone reveling in that sense of self-pity, but Angel's epiphany closely resembles most people's, as well as my own: a moment wherein one recognizes that one does have an impact, is somehow part of the picture. You can't make a difference on the greater scheme of things, perhaps - that's for the presidents and Buffys of this world - but you can still make a difference. The fact that Buffy is a tornado in her impact, where Angel - like us, the viewers - may only be a light breeze - is irrelevant. Spike, Angel, and all the rest of us fighting demons one at a time, may not manage world-changing consequences, but we can manage life-changing ones.

Then again, it's not something you can tell someone. A person's gotta grok it for him/herself. Just the way it works, and the real problem - for me - is figuring out the right situation that will help someone else make this leap so they can join us, over here, fully connected and participating. That's redemption, IMO, that leap. Cause you can't leap if you don't trust, and you can't trust if you don't love, and you can't love if you don't forgive, and you can't leap if you don't forgive - self and others.

Long and rambley and not as inspired as before, but I suppose there's always something to learn in stories. The difficulty isn't in learning it intellectually, but then going and doing something with the stories.
Announcement -- Drizzt, 13:33:47 09/12/01 Wed

The Beetles; I am the Walrus

I respect the oppinions of everyone here. Was getting the dreaded "silent treatment". Hurt my fealings. I hate subturfuge!

Sigh. I will not clarify further.
[> Huh? -- dream of the consortium, 13:49:44 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> Re: Huh? -- Drizzt, 14:44:03 09/12/01 Wed

No comment.
[> Re: Announcement -- Drizzt, 15:08:29 09/12/01 Wed

This is probably my last post on this site ever.

Love you all.

I will be lurking here though...

[> Re: Announcement -- Liquidram, 15:15:50 09/12/01 Wed

Drizzt, it appears in the below threads that just about every single of your posts have received responses, so I surely do not understand what you are saying about getting the silent treatment.

The great thing about this group is the diversity of our members and the respect we give each other.

If you are upset with something with the group as a whole, I do suggest that you let us know what it is. It is quite possible that you have misinterpreted something that was not intended to hurt you in the last 24 hours when things have been in such an upheaval.
[> [> Re: Announcement -- Drizzt, 16:07:34 09/12/01 Wed

That was touching Liquidram. Thank You. Nothing to do with the Terrorist act yesterday.

Masquerade deleted about 10 to 15 of my posts... Solitude says I do not have air conditioning... Ask either one who I am.

This discussion board is involving and it takes a lot of time just to read the commentary here; actually participating takes too much of my time.

Must.Focus. On my impossible goal, or I will never make any progress.

This board is for all things philisophical; except the feasibility of my goal... Have allready explained my motives and personality on other sites where my posts did not get deleted by the webmasters.
[> [> [> Air Conditioning & Deletions -- Solitude1056, 16:39:15 09/12/01 Wed

First, my posts get deleted all the time, if they're wildly off-topic. There's not a lot of space in the accessible archives here on Voy, and so anytime I post about the Dark Alchemy story, I know it's gonna have a short shelf life. But, on the other hand, there have been a few times that stuff has been archived too rapidly (and thus appeared to be deleted) or it's accidentally been deleted. Just as Masq, and she'll explain or apologize as need be. It's certainly never meant personally, because if it were, she'd clarify why the posts were removed.

Second, I don't recall mentioning you don't have airconditioning, unless you used to go by FanMan as an alias. That's the only reference I can think of, in which case allow me to gently point out that it was a JOKE. That's right, a JOKE. It wasn't intended to be malicious, offensive, or personal. Every "name meaning" on the list is intended purely for humor and teasing amongst friends. If you've changed your alias & not stated as much (or did and I missed it), then I apologize for not paying attention. I was just assuming you're who you are, and not attaching any significance outside of it, such as you-must-be-someone-else kind of interpretations.

We have to take things at face value here, or word value, having little else to go on. That means that our ability to communicate is of utmost importance, and if you feel that you're being maligned in any way, it's crucial that you say so when it happens. This is not only out of respect for the other person in allowing them a chance to explain, but also out of respect for yourself in asserting your impression and seeking clarification. We are a mature and amiable group, and we work hard, IME, to discuss and keep in mind that our discussions and conclusions are never meant personally. That doesn't mean that we're not human - we each, probably, sometimes take someone's statements wrong - but we work hard to recognize this, admit it, get over it, and move on. We can agree to disagree without losing face or friendship.
[> [> [> [> No posts have been deleted by me in a long while -- Masq, 16:52:12 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: Air Conditioning & Deletions -- Drizzt, 17:16:19 09/12/01 Wed

Perhaps Masq did not delete my posts. The last of my posts as FanMan here that seemed to have been deleted I mentioned a thread on another discussion board called Truth of Evil?

It is at in the philosophy section.

Not insulted by the reference to my lack of airconditioning. In fact I love all of your posts Solitude. I did get the part about it being humorous and all in fun.

Anyway I have been depressed and apathetic most of my life. I must focus...again. Love it here, but I have been spending too much time here instead of actually working on my goal. I have stopped posting on another site that I have freinds at also because of my apathy and preference of discussing philisophical/metaphysical stuff instead of testing my bizzar theories.

Working on telekinisis is very, very boring. I think I will go do that for three hours right now.

Ahhhh! I am addicted to the lure of inteligent conversation on this discussion board!!! I must stop posting, resist the urge to post oppinions or replies here...

[> [> [> [> [> Don't know if this can help? -- Nina, 18:02:01 09/12/01 Wed

I don't know how much my testimony can help you or not, but I'll give it a shot and we'll see.

I am not an obsessive-compulsive person usually. When I discovered Buffy I became one. Coming here before was like a drug. I read every single thread and hung in here all the time. Then I decided to back off a little to find back my life and friends and own goals in life (not unlike what you want to do).

After "The Gift" I deleted all my Buffy sites bookmarks on my computer. I wanted to go on a new path. The end of Buffy was the end of the obsession. So I wanted to believe. After a week I spend day after day hunting the Net again, trying to find back all the links I had erased. Since then I am a casual lurker. Not obsessive.

I don't read every threads anymore because I want to have a life. But I come from time to time pay a visit to old friends.

I hope we will have the pleasure to have a visit from you from time to time (if you decide to leave) as a friend who wants to pop in and say hello. Let us know you are well. We've known you for a long time and I am sure I am not alone to say that you are not a faceless person for us. You are not a nobody. You are part of the family. Sometimes we need to go away and find our own path, but you'll always be welcomed here. At least I'll be really happy to read your posts.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't know if this can help? -- Drizzt, 18:56:22 09/12/01 Wed

Thank you Nina. Had "issues" in my life for 12 years that I never ever mentioned to anyone until this year. Posted some stuff about myself that I felt confortable discussing as a faceless person. Anonymous. I am an introvert.

My mom does not understand my pain, and I do not feel up to the task of explaining... I love my mom more than anyone, or maby equally to my love of Buffy.

No freinds. No intimacy. No social life. Noone who knows who I am knows anything about the depth of my personal suffering. Or the causes.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't know if this can help? -- Nina, 19:16:06 09/12/01 Wed

My heart is with you Drizzt.No human beings has to go through hard times alone. I did and it was hell. There was a time in my life when I was totally alone for 3 years (not so long ago). Thought I'd never find any goal, anyone, nothing at all. And people thought I was crazy too. I don't know if talking can help you and if I am able to help you go through this. I don't want to ask you to spill your heart on the public place, but if you need a ear (don't feel any pressure) just don't hesitate to send me a message.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You guys could always set up a private conversation in the chat room. -- A8, 19:37:09 09/12/01 Wed

I've found that when I've been depressed, just venting is very cathartic even if there are no immediate answers. Once you get over the hump, then you can proceed to tomorrow. As depressed as I have been (like Nina says, we all have our own personal crosses to bear), there's some days when I wake up and really find myself quite in love with life for no other reason except that I exist. Those moments are rare, but worth the pain.

No matter where anyone is in this world, though, there is no reason these days for them to endure pain in absolute isolation. And there's no need for anyone to feel they are weird because they have no direction. Crap, at one time I thought I had one--now, due to circumstances truly beyond my control, I have no idea where the Hell I'll be next week. Sometimes, if you just surrender to the moment, take a deep breath, and realize you can be simultaneously the most insignificant and significant thing that exists in the universe, you can capture a bit of that feeling of true liberation. Take refuge in literature, take refuge in poetry, take refuge in art, and all the information the world has to offer that is available at your fingertips. Talk through the pain and never stop expressing yourself. And know that you have a sanctuary here within this virtual community.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You guys could always set up a private conversation in the chat room. -- Drizzt, 22:09:49 09/12/01 Wed

Thanks A8

Through the worst period of my life; wich has been the last six months.

Only other time I mentioned that other websight someone named Saaaaaam mocked me...

Humor is good, but it would be nice to be taken seriously, instead of ignored or mocked.

Darnit! I must resist the urge to post here.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cyber hugs -- Nina, 11:53:32 09/13/01 Thu

"Darnit! I must resist the urge to post here."

With the recent tragedy we all need moral support. Not only have we our own battles to live but now a social battle as well. Hanging together is what can help us to stay strong. Don't force yourself to remain alone. Unity and a sense of community are things we all need at this point.

Big hugs to you
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cyber hugs -- Drizzt, 18:45:03 09/13/01 Thu

Thanks. Hugs & love for all.
[> Drizzt=FanMan -- Drizzt., 18:52:08 09/13/01 Thu


I hate subturfuge, lies, and emotional manipulation.

My post above and others in this thread included subturfuge and manipulation, but no lies.

I am passive-agressive and try not to do this, but I slip up sometimes.

I appologize to any who have read this thread...
some philosophical thoughts on causes of the terrorism -- briseis, 15:15:54 09/12/01 Wed

Hello, from a wired, tired lurker from NYC. My husband was working next door to the WTC. He is fine, but we wondered if he had been killed. He saw all the death. So many of us did here in New York. There is a highschool nearby, the famous stuyvesant. I just wanted to say that I think so much "evil" is psychological, some from deep and to our modern thinking esoteric psychological causes, and others from more easily understandable causes, such as the great activity many forces in the world, many of them U.S. have shown, turning much of the rest of the world into a hellhole. I have been in Egypt and the West Bank. I don't think there are that many more fanatical Muslims than there are Jeffrey Dalhmers in the U.S. Really, a beautiful people in so many ways. I went with 30 other exchange students, most of them Jewish. During that time, I and the others came to believe that anti-Arab prejudice is the deepest prejudice in the American press, and that was 17 years ago. It is incredible for me to read the word "greed" used in connection with Palestinians, who are quite impoverished on the whole. I am really glad to see everyone on this board discussing this, my brain is fried, please excuse my disjointedness. My main worry is that people and myself will forget and do nothing. Let this be a wake-up call to make civilization win in OUR culture. Let this be a wake-up call to finding the deep self-awareness which will not only let us pity people who are consumed by anger, but bring us the knowledge to HELP THEM HEAL, not just wring our hands. On the web, there is some very relevant material I think about violence on Stanislav Grof(psychiatrist) Holotropic breathing website. There is also Lloyd de Mause's psychohistory site, which is way over the top intellectual AND intensely disturbing at the same time, as uncensored history just is. Stan Grof has more to say about healing, but folks might be interested in LdM. There is an old book by either Eric Fromme or Eric Ericksson(sp?), The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness, which is a historical, anthropological and psychological survey which comes to the conclusion that people are not naturally violent, or rather that they have some appropriate biological aggressiveness(self-defensiveness) but this does not become destructiveness until a critical level of creativity is blocked(which it has been in most more advanced societies throughout most of history). It is quite convincing, and the distinction alone is very clarifying. I wish everybody would read it! and then do whatever they have to do to make it real for themselves. In terms of making a material world where everyone has more opportunities for a decent standard of living, I think ANYTHING by Noam Chomsky, the MIT professor of linguistics who is also one of the bravest and most erudite policy analysts alive, would help. Just one final thought on fanaticism. We are talking about the people who are "justifiably" angry. Well, I'd say everybody who lost a kin could fall into that category. But what about the people who are full of emotion from this attack who are pretty much unconnected to it? Where is that emotion coming from? How much healthier or more rational is that than the Arabs who danced in the streets? Is it that those Americans are really angry anyway, and need something that permits them to express that anger? I think so. The anger has to be attached to its original cause and resolved, just telling people to not be angry isn't enough, and I think we can all feel that. We've heard these exhortations in the past, and we've seen that they don't work. Of course we can't do it for anyone, but the people who are a little freer mentally and emotionally can be pathfinders. Thanks for listening everybody.
[> Re: some philosophical thoughts on causes of the terrorism -- Kerri, 16:35:43 09/12/01 Wed

Thanks for the thoughts. I agree that we need to take this event and let it make us stronger and more aware. Anger and hate will only bring more deaths. Yesterday we saw the darkest side of human nature. We are all people and we need to come together and heal as a species not only as a nation.

Welcome to the board. I am fairly new here myself and can honestly say I have found many good people who have become friends and it was great how everyone here pulled together yesterday.
[> Welcome, briseis -- Wisewoman, 18:43:43 09/12/01 Wed

I'm just sorry it took such a tragedy for you to de-lurk, but glad that you did.

Especially glad that you and your family are safe.

Regarding your question about people far from the attack who are reacting so emotionally about it-- I'm in Vancouver, BC. Our crisis lines have had to put on extra staff since yesterday afternoon, and not only are we on the other side of the continent, we're not even the same country. The majority of calls are apparently coming from people who were already struggling with isolation and depression, and this tragedy has been the proverbial last straw. They desperately need someone to listen to them, and what comes across as anger and hatred is quite often fear, which is understandable. We understand intrinsically that a threat to America is ultimately a threat to world peace. It can be no other way.

This board and it's companion chat provided the same service as a crisis line for me (and I suspect for others of us) last night. It allowed us to decompress, rail a bit, express some anger and fear, and ultimately feel part of a community of our own creation, and not alone. That's an amazing thing, when you think about it--we are literally scattered all over the globe and have never met, and yet the genuine affection and concern expressed was overwhelming (leather references aside!).

One of the images of NYC yesterday that will stay with me is the crowds of fleeing people helping each other away from the rubble of the WTC, none of whom were recognizably black or white: everyone was gray.
[> [> how do you get from a to b? -- anom, 20:25:39 09/12/01 Wed

"They desperately need someone to listen to them, and what comes across as anger and hatred is quite often fear, which is understandable."

Wisewoman, how do you get through the anger/hatred to the fear? Most of the people I've encountered since Tuesday morning have been supportive & accepting of support, but not all of them. Some have said very hateful things, & I try to at least say don't apply that to all Arabs, or other group they may mention, or retaliation will kill innocent people too; mostly I don't get the anger directed at me, but they certainly don't want to hear what I'm trying to say. Maybe it's too soon. One person on another list got quite venomous when I posted something similar to what I said here about not generalizing the behavior of Palestinians seen celebrating on TV to all or most Palestinians. (I'm waiting till I can answer calmly myself. Plus I have to check mundusmundi's "credentials" for his statement that most Arabs and/or Muslims abhor violence.)

So if you have any ideas on a better approach to take, I'd be glad to hear them.
[> [> [> Re: how do you get from a to b? -- Wisewoman, 21:20:42 09/12/01 Wed

Truly, in the face of what these people are going through, have been through in the last two days, I don't think there is any way to reach past the anger and hatred, to isolate the fear, and then calm the fear. As you say, it is too soon.

It takes a lifetime to contemplate who we are and what life truly means, and not everyone comes to the same conclusion. I don't think you can comfort someone who has lost a loved one, a relative, a friend, a co-worker, by telling them, "Hey, it's not that bad. Maybe this life is just an illusion and now they've awakened to their true being and they're happy..." Quite frankly, in the face of this devastation, that sounds like crap.

Ultimately, you can only try to figure it out for yourself, come to your own conclusions, and then live your life according to those principles.

The one thing we are all certain of is our own mortality. It is inescapable, and yet we all ignore it. That's understandable, who wants to be reminded that no one gets out of this alive? Sometimes it seems strange to me that we spend so little time contemplating, discussing, studying, and learning about the Big D. I can't think of anything else that is such a guaranteed universal experience, except birth, and as we don't remember it, it's not a topic for debate.

I'm afraid I have no wise words of advice in this instance. The only way I can see to end the fear, that leads to the anger and hatred, is to somehow make your peace with death as soon as you can after realizing it is inevitable, and then to live the remainder of your life without worrying about it, dreading it, or being terrified of it. Accept it and carry on, living the best life you can--being completely alive while you are alive. That's easy to say, and darn near impossible to do.

It occurs to me that this is why I'm so partial to Angel's speech in Epiphany:

If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today I wanna help because people shouldn't suffer as they do. Because, if there isn't any bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
[> [> [> [> well, it was worth asking -- anom, 22:27:38 09/12/01 Wed

But I want to make it clear, none of the people who talked this way had personally lost someone. I wouldn't have tried to reason w/them if they had. Reason has very little place at a time like that.
[> [> [> [> [> Definitely, and keep asking... -- Wisewoman, 23:32:43 09/12/01 Wed

I can't be of much help, but that doesn't mean that someone else out there won't be.

Sounds like you're staying true to yourself, and that's the best thing that you can do. Good luck.
[> [> [> [> Sad lesson -- Voxpopuli, 05:55:57 09/13/01 Thu

I am against death sentence, yet, I can not say that the parents of a victim do not have the right to feel angry and actually try to kill the one who took away the life of their child. I abhor state institutionalized revenge. But all you guys said reminded me of a Tv debate I saw a couple of weeks ago. There was this man, h’s 8 y-o son was kidnapped and killed by two men. The two guys were caught and sent to prison. The father said first he was mad,a nd really wanted to kill the two men for taking the life of his one son, but then it dawned on him that it would not bring his child back, and that it would not solve anything, and that he did not want to live in a world like this. He said that if can't kill himself, he must try to live in this world but not sitting quiet and resigned. He now fights for better prisons, for resocializing criminals, he says he fights to see that these people meet the good side of humanity and do not kill again, because they're as human as he is, as his child is, and humanity died in them. He said he is not immune to feeling hate, but if he lets hatred take hold of him, he'll be doing nothing for the memory of his son, he will not be working to make a better world. I admired the strength and the sincerity of this man. He was with tears in his eyes, he was still coping with the pain, and yet he was showing why humanity may still be something better. He was trying to make some good out of a bad thing, and I sincerely hope others follow his example, because this is the only way I can see to change this planet: to find some love inside, and to work for the improvement of social and humane conditions.

[> [> [> Heisenberg's theory -- Solitude1056, 21:25:47 09/12/01 Wed

Something along the lines that it's not possible to view an event without also influencing that event, or that by viewing an event, one becomes an unwitting participant.

So let's see. An American photographer is taping Palestinian reactions to the terrorist attacks. A smartass taunts the cameraman by doing a little jig. The American crew looks shocked, but immediately starts taping. As more folks join in, the Americans get more frantic and run even more tape. Feed and feedback. The media got what it wanted - incendiary images, and further fed the flames of public opinion that "all" Palestinians are celebrating at the moment of America's pain. And it's possible that while those Palestinians participating were enjoying the moment of seeing America finally experience firsthand the pain they live with daily, they may've gone home & gotten smacked in the head by their mothers for giving Americans the impression that Palestine agreed with the terrorism, and thus potentially confusing Americans as to the real culprits. Yes, Israel's death toll is at 100 in the current rash of conflict... Palestine's is at six hundred. I can only imagine that Palestine must be thinking, yeah, America, it's about time you joined the rest of us in realizing that you are not safe. Doesn't mean I condone the terrorism, but I can understand the frustration and helplessness that must come about from being trapped in that situation without an end in sight - for either side.

However, da big bad in this - Bin Laden - is not Palestinian. He's Saudi, and allegedly hiding out under the auspices of the Taliban, that lovely oppressive regime to end all oppressive regimes that I believe the US actually had a hand in assisting to power. Go figure. But anyway, cutting it short here & finish with this: there's more of what I said elsewhere, copied here, in a post in a lower thread. I think the subject line is about defining whose zealotry or something like that. Scroll to the bottom of the post to see my attitude as a photographer, in speaking to other photographers.
[> [> [> Most people abhor violence........... -- Rufus, 22:25:58 09/12/01 Wed

Everyone is in shock that human beings can do the acts that the people that hijacked those airplanes did. Most people abhor violence and wish nothing more than to live a quiet comfortable life. I was, and still are angry that so many people were murdered for an idea, one interpertaion of "the truth" was used to justify violence. I will also make it clear that I'm not angry at the people of the Middle East. I'm angry at the "people" that carried out the acts of terrorism. My anger makes me want to strike out, destroy those people who so casually killed to make a statement. But that doesn't mean I think that all people from the Middle East love violence. Human beings did this to each other, using race and religion as an excuse to separate from their view of humanity, those victims they killed. I hope that we don't do the same thing. We have to remember that human beings are just that, human. No legitimate religion calls for the murder of the innocent. No legitimate religion calls for humans to treat each other like things. Likewise with race, it's only a label. Human beings are what they have make themselves to be. We are all capable of murder, or, capable of sacrifice to preserve life. Right now with so much death people are acting on anger using labels to identify someone, something to act out their rage. If we all saw each other as part of a whole instead of seperate parts, we may not be so quick to kill each other. So how does one get from hate and anger to some sort of peace of mind? For me it was to remember who I am, what I feel about the value of life. I also remember that to become a monster all one has to do is see people as not "us" but "them". I want justice for the murdered. I don't want a retaliatory blood bath that will only make matters worse. I want the people responsible, and only the people responsible, to pay for these crimes against humanity. Hate and fear only feed each other. Always remember that most people, most people, hate what has happened as much as we do. Using the same tactics that the terrorists do to obtain revenge, just makes us one of them.
[> [> [> [> What if the people responsible include the leadership of one or more foreign nations? -- A8, 22:32:17 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> I think I kinda made that clear when I said those responsible.... -- Rufus, 22:36:19 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Then we're talking about the potential for a great deal of retaliatory violence. -- A8, 22:38:42 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I didn't say that my wish was realistic........... -- Rufus, 22:40:30 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: Most people abhor violence........... -- Maple, 01:18:51 09/13/01 Thu

"Using the same tactics that the terrorists do to obtain revenge, just makes us one of them."

Not out of revenge, but out of necessity. If there is isn't a DISPROPORTIONAL RESPONSE, the violence against us will escalate. It is either them or us. And God forgive me, I am rooting for US!

Yes we might use the same tactics. We used the same tactics in World War II that the Nazis used. That the Japanese used. But there was a fundamental difference. Not in the tactics, not in the methods, but in the reasons we are fighting. There can be no moral equalvance between us and the Nazis, nor moral equalvance between us and the Japanese, and those who think otherwise should really look elsewhere to live.

Nikita: "How can you be so ruthless?" Madeline: "Because the other side is ruthless. If we're not stronger, then they win, and we lose.

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."

General William Tecumseh Sherman

"You wanna get Capone? Here's how you get him. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone!" - Malone, The untouchables
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Most people abhor violence........... -- Sue, 06:23:50 09/13/01 Thu

Our ends are just, but our means must be ruthless.

War isn't pretty. It isn't noble in the sense we sometimes see in the movies. It is dirty. It is profane. That is the way it is. Can't be refined.

But sometimes, like now it is the only option. We must do whatever it takes. Our nation has been attacked. Our FAMILY has been attacked. Just like Buffy said to Glory, "You do not mess with me and mine!" "You do not attack my family!"

We must understand that our survival is at stake. More importantly our children's survival is at stake. And we must go to whatever lengths we have to. No Mercy until the war is over.

This is war. Total War! You do what it takes. Just like Giles did.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm glad to see somebody else out there feels the way I do -- Shaglio, 07:57:24 09/13/01 Thu

As bad as retaliating may be, it's the only way to discourage this sort of action. These crazed fanatics will not stop here; they probably see this as a major victory on their part and will use this incident as a steppingstone to more horrid acts of terrorism. Sure, turning the other cheek sounds like a moral and ethical thing to do, but these people are obsessed. Do you actually think that if we don't retaliate, the terrorists will say to themselves, "I guess we didn't have any effect on them. Maybe we shouldn't terrorize the US anymore" and that's the end of it? Unfortunately, these people aren't thinking rationally and the only way to stop them from harming us is to remove them from the face of the earth. I, of course, am not refering to ALL Arabs, Muslims, Afghanastani, Irani, etc., but just to those people who revert to terrorist acts (Which includes those in Northern Ireland as well). I know my oppinion is going to upset many here, but I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm glad to see somebody else out there feels the way I do -- Helen, 08:17:28 09/13/01 Thu

I know exactly how you feel. Irish terrorists (on all sides of the divide) have been a problem in the UK and Ireland for decades now, and although it would be nice to think that dialogue and negotiations are working, it often seems that they do not. No one knows for sure whether the official paramilitary groups are connected with the "unofficial" activities of splinter groups since the Good Friday Agreement. No one know when there will ever be true peace in Northern Ireland. And I don't know if you've seen any of the pictures of children going to school at a Catholic primary school in a Protestant area, but they were disturbing. The activities of both sides are equally fanatical - who would want to maim or kill small children? who would risk their child's life just to make a point?

Fanatics of any creed, race, cannot be reasoned with. Sadly, it seems that a violent response is all some people understand.
Transcript from our angst- relieving chat room discussion last night. -- A8, 17:20:24 09/12/01 Wed

Hope this isn't a waste of space here, but our discussion last night was quite cathartic, and a little irreverent--thought the rest of you might be interested. The players: Tiny Snapdragon, Sol, Wisewoman, Humanitas,d'Herblay, JBone, Liquidram, and A8.

[tinysnapdragon] Hehehe sounds like the premise for "Speed 3 when morons attack"
[Solitude1056] ROFL!
A8> I thought that was 'Speed 2'?
[tinysnapdragon] same diff hehehe
[Wisewoman] Nothing like philosophers to take the sting out of terrorism, LOL
[Solitude1056] Yeah, Son of the Revenge of the Return of [insert movie name here]
[tinysnapdragon] aye and you all have no idea my relief when I saw the chat link on the board tonight
[Humanitas] Hey, ya either laugh or cry. Laughing's better for you.
[tinysnapdragon] one can only live on CNN for so long
[Wisewoman] Or is that insert prick erudit poster...?
[tinysnapdragon] (heard laughing burns more calories in any case)
[Solitude1056] LOL I love that typo.
[Solitude1056] seriously did a double take on it the first time, though. I mean, rufus seems so niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.
[Wisewoman] I'm still not sure Rufus didn't do it deliberately--she's bucking for third evil!
[Solitude1056] my illusions crushed!
[Solitude1056] well, she doesn't own enough leather.
[Solitude1056] only a skirt, sorry, that's just not counting here.
[Solitude1056] needs work. I'll help.
[Humanitas] No doubt that's fixable.
[tinysnapdragon] LOL now I see what qualifications are for moving up in the ranks are here
[Solitude1056] yeah, it's called being a smartass.
A8> Hey I'm one of those too
[Wisewoman] Yesterday at work someone said, "What we need here is a whip" and my co-worker pulled a six foot black leather bull whip out of her desk drawer...Yikes!
[Solitude1056] Hunh. Wonder why dHerb isn't higher then, or A8. Well, come to think of it, the majority of the board could qualify.
[Solitude1056] WW, introduce me to your coworker. Now. I'm in love.
[tinysnapdragon] Wise HAhahaha! terrible!
[Humanitas] WW, you work w/ Sol??
[Solitude1056] ROFL
A8> I like leather, dark humor and long walks on the beach with someone special....
[Wisewoman] No, it gets worse, so I walked through the building with the whip, passing dozens of people, and no one even raised an eyebrow!
[tinysnapdragon] AGH! desensitized were they?
[Wisewoman] Well, just one woman who wanted to have a "private chat" with me later....urk!
[Solitude1056] They said to themselves, "it's that crazy woman. don't make eye contact, and back away slowly." she just THOUGHT they weren't paying attention.
[tinysnapdragon] (words cannot express)
[Solitude1056] TSD, ditto.
[Humanitas] Know that look, all too well.
[tinysnapdragon] it was when she started with the chair and whip act they called security...
[Solitude1056] that's just cause you teach high school, Hu. And aren't you nearly over thirty?
[Wisewoman] damn, I love you guys
A8> I once bought a cat o'nine tails in a store here in SF called Stormy Leather--I didn't want to be rude, the name just drew me to it. Youch!
[Solitude1056] TSD, it was the three guys in the skimpy leather bikinis that really set them off, though.
[tinysnapdragon] ROFL
[Humanitas] Hey, I have 3 more months of denial left, thank-you-very-much!
[tinysnapdragon] I'm sure it was well-choreographed though...
[Wisewoman] Bring on the dancing boys...NOW!
[Solitude1056] A8, I always felt like an idiot shopping at the leather place in Boston. Great place, but it was called Hubba Hubba. I mean, you can't say that with a straight face.
[Humanitas] You're right. I just tried.
[Solitude1056] Woo hoo, I'm going to get my new leather pants at Hubba ack, choke, cough Hub woo hoo!
[tinysnapdragon] (can barely type)
A8> Oh we're the boys of the chorus I hope you like our show, I know you're rooting for us...setc.(uh- oh, now I've got Bugs Bunny floating around in my head)...
[Solitude1056] I mean, here I am, looking at boots, and there's a six foot something woman with more hair than my sister's had in her whole life put together.
[Wisewoman] Okay, there's a trend here...unemployed writers, Chevy Cavaliers, migraines, and now...leather afficionados!
[Solitude1056] I mean, small countries could make wigs for its senile citizens from this woman's hair. And I cant be impressed, because, well, the store's name.
[tinysnapdragon] oil is the lifeblood of your car LOL
[Solitude1056] It's just not possible.
[Solitude1056] TSD, that's what started it, IMO. Buffy is a chevy?
[Wisewoman] Yikes, where's dedalus??
[tinysnapdragon] aye, Corvette...but Dawn is most certainly a Cavalier
A8> No Buffy's a Miata.
[tinysnapdragon] Nay no Miata!
[Solitude1056] A8, you planning on doing that weeblye-weeblye porky pig sound, too?
A8> Faith's a Corvette.
[Solitude1056] Buffy's more like a BMW z3.
[tinysnapdragon] Aye, touche A8 got me on that one
[Wisewoman] No, seriously, have we heard from Dedalus today?
[Humanitas] Checking....
[Solitude1056] Faith is a Mustang. And not one of these new wastoid ones, but a good one from the early 60's.
[dHerblay] He posted--mentioned Campbell
[Wisewoman] Thanks
A8> I think he was chatting here a few hours back too.
[Solitude1056] yeah, Ded's been on the boards.
[tinysnapdragon] You all are my salvation :) haven't posted in a while, but so glad you were here tonight
A8> I responded to his post.
[Solitude1056] heya, blame it on Liquidram, she's the one who started it.
[Humanitas] Yep. Anyone else missing, other than OnM?
[tinysnapdragon] I must head to bed but I truly thank you all for all you do and your wisdom :)
A8> She's a real mixer...get's us all revved up and then leaves.
[dHerblay] Cleanthes?
[Solitude1056] wisdom?
[Humanitas] 'Night TSD.
[Solitude1056] We did what? That's A8's fault.
[Wisewoman] Well, I always thought we could use this chat in an emergency, but I figured a Board emergency, not this.
[dHerblay] bye pjorgensen
[Solitude1056] I saw that, dHerb.
A8> Okay, what did I do now?
[tinysnapdragon] Night all :) will post more on the board and only a few more suns till B returns :)
[Solitude1056] You're just thrilled to find a relative or something.
[Solitude1056] The wisdom part.
[tinysnapdragon] and our country suffers less sadness
[Solitude1056] Since WW's still back having fun with the bullwhip.
[dHerblay] How many jorgensens can there be?
>> tinysnapdragon has left channel #ivyWEB
[Humanitas] Um, guys, no Cleanthes.
[Solitude1056] Absolutely, TSD. We'll pull through, we always do.
[Solitude1056] Masq might have his/her email.
[Wisewoman] May you sleep well, tsd.
[dHerblay] His email's on the board--he posts it
A8> Peaceful dreams TSD.
[dHerblay] excuse me, his/her
[Humanitas] Hang on, BRB, gonna go e-mail Cleanthes. Worried now.
[Wisewoman] YTV in Vancouver advertising new episodes of Angel starting this Thursday, 13th...huh?
[Wisewoman] Can they do that? A week early?
[dHerblay] WW, I'm defecting. Space isn't cutting the reruns like FX in the States
[Solitude1056] uh, they're just messing with you.
A8> I wish there was a way to save this conversation. Anybody?
[Solitude1056] save it?
[dHerblay] save it from itself?
[Solitude1056] it's been wrecked ever since WW brought up her bullwhip fascination.
A8> Just block, copy and paste?
[Wisewoman] It's historical, uh, hysterical?
[Solitude1056] I mean, hello, she's still not said what she was doign carrying it from her coworker's desk, around the building, and to where, I ask, to where??

- hole digger wasn't heavy enough. So I hauled out the long rifle, and, well, hey.
[Solitude1056] If it works.
[Solitude1056] WW, you're right.
[JBone] no, not with black powder, with muscle
[Solitude1056] What are you going to do, aim at a plane that you're not even aware is dropping from the sky and heading straight towards you?
A8> Boy am I a wimp--I got nothing. No guns, no bats. I guess I'm a gonner.
[Solitude1056] A8, don't worry, we'll make WW protect you. She's got the bullwhip.
[JBone] you have your wit A8
[Wisewoman] Actually, A8, you might be an honorary Canadian, we just carry whips...
[Solitude1056] and your keen fashion sense!
[liq] I don't care if it lands on me as long as my kids aren't around
A8> I could use some of her Magic Clause now too.
[liq] couldn't we all
A8> I wouldn't mind those magic claws either.
[Wisewoman] Boy, how I wish I could say to CNN, "la-la-la, I can't hear you!"
[Solitude1056] Hu, btw, you mentioned it but didn't say just how did you explain to your kids? Or did you even try?
[Solitude1056] err, students.
[liq] I didn't need too, it's all they heard at school... grief sessions, assemblies, you name it
[Solitude1056] yeah, but I meant Hu he said something about trying to explain it to a bunch of 13 yr olds at school.
[liq] my son couldn't deal with hearing any more when he got home
[Humanitas] It's tough. They handle it the way kids handle most things with shock and jokes.
[liq] my daughter is blissfully unaware of the severity
[Wisewoman] What, just like us oldsters?
A8> The main thing is not to fear. This was a tragic but rare occurence. Our best weapon is to live our lives--flaunt our way of life in the faces of those who would kill us to prove a mindless point.
[Solitude1056] uh, wouldn't that be the way most humans handle it? (look at us, after all)
[JBone] i was 13 when the shuttle blew up, we had a comedy routine during lunch
[Humanitas] Yeah, but with less, I don't know, connection to the event. It's not real at that age, y'know? Esp. so far from the event.
[Solitude1056] yeah, well you weren't out on the street with my sister today. she said a plane went overhead and the whole street hit the deck, and several people nearly lost it.
[liq] I agree A
[Solitude1056] you can -think- no fear, and then when you're in it, there's fear, and there's nothing you can do about it. it's there. yes, nothing to fear but fear itself
[liq] My father was frequency manager for Shuttle Ops for NASA ...the shuttle blowing was a devastation in our family
[Solitude1056] but you still have to acknowledge that fear or else it does end up ruling you.
A8> I'm not at all afraid. I'm pissed and sad. But not afraid. Why hit the deck? If the plane crashes you're dead. If a volcano erupts you're dead. Live and take reasonable precautions. That's all you can do.
[liq] david remembers loma prieta and the devastation,so this was real to him.
[Humanitas] We talked about the difference between this kind of thing and traditional war.
[Wisewoman] A8, if someone's throwing things at you, at least duck, 'kay?
[liq] of course you duck if you see it coming
[JBone] you know those scences in movies where there are people running down the streets from something?
A8> I may not be afraid, but I'm also not stupid. I duck when necessary.
[Solitude1056] I didn't say they though the plane was going to hit them. She descirbed it as an instinctive thing her friend threw his arm over her and pulled her down.
[Wisewoman] Guys, I wanna stay and chat, but the partner's bitchin' at me to hit the sack so I'll be able to work in the morning....nag, nag, nag
[Solitude1056] It wasn't til they got up they realized everyone else had done the same thing.
[JBone] i've seen the real thing, and wow
[Solitude1056] A8, lol
[Solitude1056] WW take it easy
[liq] ok WW, see ya tomorrow
[Humanitas] 'night, ww. Enjoy the whip.
[Solitude1056] hehehe
[Wisewoman] G'night guys, catch you tomorrow---hope it's better than today!
>> Wisewoman has left channel #ivyWEB
A8> Speaking of ducking, there was a comedian some time ago who pointed out how crooks would shoot at Superman and he would puff out his ches at the bullets, but when the bullets ran out and they threw the gun at him, he would duck. Funny image.
[Humanitas] I gotta turn in myself. Work in the morning, and all.
[Solitude1056] same here.
[Solitude1056] wait, me work?
[Solitude1056] hunh. I gotta pretend to work in the morning.
[Humanitas] Don't you have some editing to do?
[liq] see ya Hum.... Sol, is your place even open tomorrow?
[JBone] hope those jumping out of the buildings have more compassion than i do
[Solitude1056] hm, A8, now I'm gonna be laying in bed thinking, why DID superman duck?
[liq] Part IV is up... no one noticed
[Solitude1056] I don't know yet, they havent' said. I would guess so.
[Solitude1056] Well it was sort of upstaged.
A8> Maybe his head was his Achilles' heal.
[liq] yep
[Solitude1056] The story's a bit anticlimatic at this point, I imagine.
[liq] J- I don't think compassion was on their mind....
>> Humanitas has left channel #ivyWEB
[liq] everything is anti-climactiv
[liq] tic that is
[liq] dH.. you really here?
[Solitude1056] it's possible we'll be closed tomorrow, though.
[dHerblay] really--just kind of staring into space
[Solitude1056] being so close to the pentagon, I'm not the only person with family who works or lives right there.
[liq] got it
A8> Nonsense--the story is art and art pierces the veil. It may not be real but it possesses its own reality which has a validity of its own especially wrt to today's trragedy.
[JBone] good luck and god bless sol
[Solitude1056] uh, thanks. (I think.)
[liq] A, it's back to us going about our lives and not allowing them to control us
[Solitude1056] yeah. it's called picking up the pieces and moving right along.
A8> That's what I've been saying. The best revenge is to live our offensive lifestyles with joy.
[Solitude1056] yes, it's horrendous, but our strength's always been in our tenacity more than anything else.
[JBone] well, i may not believe in god, but i wish you all the best in the tragedy with your family and friends
[Solitude1056] what does a god have to do with it? compassion is the, ack, almost started quoting stuff there. anyway, compassion is important. oh, and give blood, too.
[liq] I've had too many blessings to not believe
[liq] i'm giving blood tomorrow.
A8> Sad how after thousands of years, poor old god has gone from a being who could wipe out the earth with a wink, to a feeble wisp that relies on suicide pilots. Some god.
[JBone] i'll stay sober enogh just to give blood
[liq] Free will A... but let's not argue religion. I respect everyone's faith
[Solitude1056] we've got the right to screw up.
[Solitude1056] good, J.
[JBone] i've had enough tragedies to not believe, but, its my disease, i'm a hopeless optimistic
A8> I respect faith, but faith that inspires cowardly acts is as George Carlin would characterize 'a pig religion.'
[Solitude1056] what is that phrase? a pessimist is one who expects the worst, and an optimist... drat, can't reccall now. I think it was from the devil's dictionary.
[liq] I've seen my son thru 34 surgeries, many which were life threatening. My faith helped pull me thru.
[JBone] 34?
[liq] yes, and he is just 15 next week
[JBone] i lost a nephew after two surgeries, you're lucky
[liq] Don't I know it
A8> And I'm sure you're faith has served you well. I'm sure it is a faith that would never inspire violence, spite or a single ill thought. That's faith in its pure form. What inspired today's events was not faith at all. It was envy, and self-hatred, and savagery. Just My opinion.
[Solitude1056] alright, I have to get offline I'll deal with the pictures on yahoo tomorrow, too intense
[Solitude1056] and I agree with A8, but it's a complex issue and there are no easy answers.
[liq] Bye Sol
[dHerblay] bye sol
A8> G'night Sol.
[Solitude1056] we're philosophers, if anyone would be aware there are no easy answers, it would be the ones who know there aren't any easy questions, either.
[liq] I completely agree A... that is no God that I know
[JBone] love life, see you later
A8> take care J
>> JBone has left channel #ivyWEB
[liq] we winding down here, I think
[dHerblay] long day
A8> I think it's time for me to relax a bit, listen to that Michelle Branch CD again--something comforting about a young girl's voice. Talk to you folks later.
[liq] ok A...
[dHerblay] bye A
Disconnected: you logged off
[> Chat room -- Kerri, 18:03:37 09/12/01 Wed

I was at the chat room for a bit yesterday and it was really helpful to be able to talk to people about everything. All the people here are really great and supportive of eachother. So thank you all!
[> Thanks for posting that, A8... -- Wisewoman, 18:25:58 09/12/01 Wed was almost like being there again! Actually, it's a much better illustration of what I was trying to say--sometimes you either have to laugh or cry. Taken out of context, some of that conversation sounds callous, but when it's bracketed by the recognition of tragedy, and concern for those we consider friends, it's really put in perspective.

Let's do it again, sometime soon. :o| (not quite up to winking yet, but getting there...)
[> HEY! Who was chatting & using my alias! Why, I oughta... -- Solitude1056, 19:00:32 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> What? Hit us with a whip? ;o) (first wink in 48 hours) -- Wisewoman, 22:07:09 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> [> Kerrraack that whip! Give the past a slap! Now whip it! Whip it Good! -- A8, 22:22:54 09/12/01 Wed

[> [> Excuse me Sol, what ever do you mean by..................... -- Rufus, 22:34:54 09/12/01 Wed

Rufus seems niiiiiiice? Now, if I could only find my leather skirt you would be in for a severe round of scolding......;)
[> [> [> Bwahahahahaha. -- Solitude1056, 05:44:53 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> Everytime you do that I have this feeling I'm going to end up.......... -- Rufus, 13:02:04 09/13/01 Thu

tied to a railroad don't have a black moustache do you?
[> [> [> [> [> Why? Is your name Penelope? ;-) -- Solitude1056, 13:38:26 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Just call me Miss. PUREheart.............:):):):) -- Rufus, 14:30:20 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> sure... but I can't manage a straight face at the same time! -- Solitude1056, 17:07:37 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> err... Pauline. (sheesh!) -- da Second Eeeevul., 23:05:23 09/13/01 Thu

for the curious, go read: anom, all, go read: -- Solitude1056, 21:28:16 09/12/01 Wed

[> Thanks, Sol. Also, link to May 1998 interview w/ bin Laden in post: -- Wisewoman, 21:42:36 09/12/01 Wed
If You're a Buffy Fan and You're Proud, Honk Your Horn!!! -- Dedalus, 21:47:38 09/12/01 Wed

Okay, on to the lighter side ...

I was driving home this evening, and what did my eyes a'spy but a bright red billboard with two piercing eyes staring out of it and under them the sublime caption -


The hyperactive child in me began shouting excitedly, calling out her name, leaning my head out the window, the night wind whipping through my hair. It was quite a moment. I also think I hit the horn a couple of times in a moment of sheer, unadulterated joy.

And no, to the smartass in the third row, I was not on any pain medication for any root canals this time. (though I was on cough medicine cause I've got a cold)

Anyway, I think we need a new Existentialist Scooby ritual. Or hell, maybe the first one. Here's the drill -

Whenever you pass a Buffy billboard, don't be shy. Don't sit there like some passive, inert lemming on the way to a funeral! Get out there and honk those horns! Let 'em know the Existential Scoobies are in town, and we're here to stay. Show your Buffy fandom. Yell her name out a few times at the top of your lungs.

This will also be a great way to identify any Existential Scoobies lurking about the neighborhood. So if you see an incredibly dashing looking young man in a red Chevy Cavalier blowing his horn and spastically waving his arms out the window, you'll know it's me, for sure and for certain.

I think this would make a splendid forum tradition. I might warn you though - there's no way to tell how a fellow passenger might react to this sudden explosion of fandom. Also, you might want to check for cops before you start honking and continuously shouting out the name "Buffy!" and weaving all over the road.

Although, the way most people drive here in Atlanta, I don't think anyone would even notice.
[> Re: If You're a Buffy Fan and You're Proud, Honk Your Horn!!! -- Drizzt, 21:54:01 09/12/01 Wed

I drive a Toyota pickup... Will honk and shout Buffy if/when I see one of those billboards.
[> why don't they have these billboards in St. Louis? >:-( -- spotjon, 05:57:08 09/13/01 Thu

[> ROFL! thank you - I needed that laugh! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 07:13:25 09/13/01 Thu

[> Re: Oh come on! -- Dedalus, 10:18:38 09/13/01 Thu

Only three brave souls reply to this? So are Drizzt, spotjon, and Sol the only real fans on here? Come on, let's get with the program!

Ooh, another thought. Try and circle back around a few times if you can. Do laps passing the billboards. That'll show 'em we're Scooby, and we're proud. And just ignoring any flashing blue lights behind you ... I'm sure the cop is just celebrating his Buffy fandom too.
[> [> Uh... there's no billboards around DC that I've seen. Guess it's time for... roadtrip!! -- Solitude1056, 10:29:56 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> Hey Sol, some DC questions for you. -- A8, 17:00:36 09/13/01 Thu

Been a while since I've been there. Is Gepetto's pizza or Mr. Smith's (homemade potato chips and monster daiquiris) in Georgetown still around? How about the 21st Amendment (down the street from GWU) or the Brickskeller (Around the world in 80 Beers!)? Whitey's in Arlington (home of the world famous, locally, broasted chicken)? Mike Baker's or the Mad Hatter? The Grog and Tankard (DC NW)? The Red Lion (in the mall across from GWU)?

Sheesh, did I use to drink a lot, or what?

[> [> I don't think we're gonna get them in Canuckle-land. -- Wisewoman, 11:22:28 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Well, that just means .... Really Long Roadtrip!!! -- Dedalus, 11:56:39 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> Oh a roadtrip....I must pack.......where are we going btw? -- Rufus, 13:00:38 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> Cincinnati? Uh, how about not? Let's go to La-la-land instead and crash a Shakespeare party! -- Solitude1056, 13:35:10 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> You have me here, what's a Shakespeare party? -- Rufus, 15:00:27 09/13/01 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The actors go over to Joss' house every Sunday and recite Shakespeare -- Dedalus, 16:16:09 09/13/01 Thu

[> Re: If You're a Buffy Fan and You're Proud, Honk Your Horn!!! -- Humanitas, 12:35:30 09/13/01 Thu

Haven't seen them in Fl yet, but my horn is ready to do the deed!
[> No billboards here to honk at... -- Marie, 03:05:43 09/14/01 Fri

..but if I ever see one that says "Mae Buffy yn Byw", be sure I'll be tootin' along with the rest of you!

[> [> Translation? Please? Pretty please with sugar on top? -- A8, 11:04:39 09/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> "Buffy Lives"!! (The Welsh like to talk, ergo four words for two!) -- Marie, 17:29:38 09/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> [> Cool! How many words does it take to say "cool"? -- A8, 17:49:26 09/14/01 Fri

Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Slayrunt, 22:36:56 09/12/01 Wed
************************************************************************************** First, let me start with a note about names. Wisewoman has provided the name Jane Stride for the human prevamped Darla (thanks Wisewoman). Second, Darla and Angel/us are so intertwined that I must give comments about him/them. **************************************************************************************


Temperamental-Mr. Big

Darla: I, I, I, I don't wanna go up there.
Boy: Aw, you can't wait, huh?
Darla: We're just gonna get in trouble.
Boy: Yeah, you can count on it.
They almost kiss when Darla startles, draws a quick breath and turns her head around to look down the hall.
Darla: What was that?
Boy: What was what?
Darla: I heard a noise.
Boy: It's nothing!
Darla: Uh, uh, maybe it's something.
Boy: Or maybe it's some *thing*!
Darla: That's not funny.
He looks down the other hall.
Boy: Hellooooo! (to Darla) There's nobody here.
Darla: Are you sure? (looks away)
Boy: Yes, I'm sure.
Darla: Okay.
She turns back to him all vamped out. She growls and bites him. He grunts in pain as they sink to the floor.

Welcome to the Hellmouth

Mr. Big, a mislabeled hair band of the late 80's still going strong today, is my favorite band. The singer has stated that this song is about "a psycho b***h from hell. I think it fits Darla perfectly. She has a split personality and as such, let's take a look at both.

A psychological and philosophical view of Jane Stride.

Jane is a self-loathing creature who views herself as something to be used and abused. Jane thinks that she is worthless and deserves everything that has happen to her in her short life. Something in her past has led her to a life of prostitution and to a life where she has turned her back on God. Perhaps she was molested or abused by a priest and no one, even her family, would believe her. Whatever it was, something terrible happened to baby Jane (sorry, I couldn't resist). When we met her, she is on her deathbed and seems resigned to her death, but death is not what the Fates have in store for her.

All of these thought come from this very short view of Jane's life from the A:tS ep "Darla".

1609, the Virginia Colony.
The sun is shining on Darla as she is lying in bed. There are two veiled sisters standing at the foot of her bed watching as a doctor takes a leech from her arm.
Darla: "Someone close the shutters. (One of the sisters does so) Seems wrong that I should die while the sun is still so bright."
A hooded priest enters the room.
Priest: "You'll not see it again. Before it sets, you will have left this life."
Darla: "I didn't ask for a priest. Who invited him here?"
Priest: "You did. You cried out for me last night in your delirium."
Darla: "I don't remember. Do you even *know* what I am?"
Man walks into the room: "A woman of some property. No husband, no inheritance. Yes. I know what you are."
Darla: "I'm a whore."
Priest: "Well, yes, that too. You should have asked for a priest long ago, child. Your life may have been the better for it."
Darla: "And you should have paid me a visit before today, father. Your life may have been more interesting because of it."
Priest: "Are you prepared now to renounce Satan and beg God his forgiveness?"
Darla: "God never did anything for me."
Priest to the others: "Leave us."
The two sisters leave.
Priest to the doctor still sitting at her bedside: "You can't save her life - perhaps I can still save her soul."
The doctor gets up and leaves.
Darla: "My soul is well past saving. Let the devil take me if he'll have me. Either way - I die."
Priest: "No (The priest steps closer and pulls his hood back to reveal - the Master) you will not die. (Darla looks up at his inhuman face without flinching) You will be reborn."
Darla: "I know you."
The Master leans down and takes one of Darla's hands in his.
Master: "I came to you last night. I sang to you from that window."
Darla: "Hmm, I remember now. You're death?"
Master: "No."
Darla: "What then?"
Master: "I'm your savior. God never did anything for you - but I will."
With that he leans down and sinks his fangs into her neck.

A psychological and philosophical view of Darla

The new vampire eventually to be called Darla of course knew everything about Jane. I think Darla's unlife might have started much like Jane's in that she was a usee, a follower, but she got something else from the Master, approval. When she became a vampire, she was changed and changing. She learned to be the user, the hunter, and the manipulator. She learned that she had strength and she learned about power. Her greatest conquest was an Irish rogue named Liam. When Liam, soon to be Angelus, killed his family, she was intrigued and perhaps saw an opportunity to manipulate Angelus to serve her.

Darla: "This contest is ended, is it?"
Liam: "Now I've won."
Darla: "You're sure?"
Liam: "Of course. I proved who had the power here."
Darla: "You think?"
Liam: "What?"
Darla: "Your victory over him took but moments"..."But his defeat of you will last life times."
Liam: "What are you talking about? He can't defeat me now."
Darla: "Nor can he ever approve of you - in this world or any other."

Darla understands a defeat that can last a lifetime.

Angelus and the Master did not get off on the right foot. Angelus made Darla choose between him and the Master, but the choice was not about which face Darla wanted to look at for eternity. The choice for Darla was does she want to stay with the Master as a usee, a follower, or does she want to go with Angelus and be the power, the manipulator.

Their unlife together was full of people and they were full of people if you get my meaning. They went to Naples and ate. They went to France and ate. When they are chased into a barn the shooting script states "They both check out various corners of the barn for safety. Seems like a drill they've been through before." Maybe they were chased out of Italy as well. I think that Angelus' lifestyle was leading them to a bad end. Why was it Angelus', you ask? Angelus started by killing his village and Darla approved. In Italy they killed and may have been chased out to France. In France, they were staying at fine hotels and killing the waiters, thus bringing suspicion upon them. Angelus was trying to keep Darla happy, to get her approval. Now when Darla realizes that this might be the end, she realized it was time for a change. First things first, she must chose to fight to the death with Angelus or sacrifice her dear boy. She chooses to survive.

Angelus definitely changes between France in 1765 and London in 1860 and I think Darla was the cause. In the Angelus posting party, I referred to Darla as the Col. Parker of the vampire world and now I will explain. Pre-France Angelus killed anyone and everyone and did it pretty much openly. Nothing has ever been stated that there was any style to the kills, but in London, Angelus starts the Drusilla quest and the Angelus we all know and love is created (ok, well I love that Angelus). Angelus asked Darla what's next and Darla pointed out Dru. Darla brings the gypsy girl to Angelus. It seems that Darla is in charge. Of course because of the times the man was seen as the leader and Darla was ok with that. She and Angelus knew who was really in charge.

I found two scenes that I thought were connected. The first was in "The Trials" and the second from "Fool for Love"

France 1765, night. A horse carrying two riders trots into a barn. Angelus and Darla dismount.
Angelus: "This is outrageous! Don't these people know who we are?"
Darla: "I think they do. Which would explain the lynch mob. Look, we should all rest. It'll be dawn in a few hours and she won't last another mile, not carrying us both."
Angelus closing the barn door: "Right. I hate the French. We should go some place like Romania."
Darla: "In Italy you said we should go some place like France."
Angelus: "At least in Romania they really know how to treat a creature of the night."
Darla: "You were craving rich food, that's what you said, something - French."
Darla lights a lantern while Angelus looks out at the dark countryside.
Angelus: "The valley seems quiet."
Darla: "I told you we lost them back in Arles. I'm sure of it."
Angelus: "This man, Holtz, how does he keep finding us?"
Darla: "Well, we stay in the best hotels, order room service, eat the waiters - people talk."


ANGELUS has Spike by the throat, choking him.
ANGELUS "Perhaps it's my advancing years that makes me so forgetful, William. Remind me. Why don't we kill you?"
SPIKE (chokes)..."ike."
ANGELUS "What's that?"
TITLE CARD: Yorkshire, 1880
Angelus releases Spike in disgust.
SPIKE "It's Spike now."
Reveal Drusilla and DARLA standing to either side of Angelus.
SPIKE "You'd do well to remember it, mate."
ANGELUS "I'm not your mate. And when did you start talking like that?"
DARLA (to Spike) "Look, we barely got out of London alive because of you. Everywhere we go, it's the same story and now-"
ANGELUS "You've got me and my women hiding in the luxury of a mine shaft, all because William the Bloody likes the attention. This is not a reputation we need."
Spike takes a deep swig from a wine bottle.
SPIKE "Oh, I'm sorry. Did I sully our good name? We're vampires."
ANGELUS "The more reason to use a certain amount of finesse."
SPIKE "Bollocks! That stuff's for the frilly cuffs-and-collars crowd. I'll take a good brawl any day."
Angelus approaches Spike menacingly.
ANGELUS "And every time you do, we become the hunted."
DARLA (sing-song; to Drusilla) "I think our boys are going to fight."
Drusilla claps her hands giddily.
DRUSILLA "The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his birthday."
Darla looks at Drusilla like she's crazy.
DARLA "Good point..."
SPIKE (to Angelus) "Yeah, you know what I prefer to being hunted? Getting caught."
ANGELUS "That's a brilliant strategy really... pure cunning."
SPIKE "Sod off!" (laughs) "Come on. When was the last time you unleashed it? All out fight in a mob, back against the wall, nothing but fists and fangs? Don't you ever get tired of fights you know you're going to win?"
ANGELUS "No. A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry. Without that, we're just animals."
SPIKE "Poofter!"
Angelus shoves Spike and the fight is on. Angelus snaps a metal rod in half, lifts Spike up and slams him down on his back, raising the makeshift stake. Spike stops it inches from his heart and smiles up at Angelus.
SPIKE "Now you're gettin' it!"
Angelus drops the rod and backs off.
ANGELUS "You can't keep this up forever. If I can't teach you, maybe someday an angry crowd will. That... or the Slayer."
Spike sits up, suddenly interested.
SPIKE "What's a Slayer?"

The first scene is Darla subtlety trying to teach Angelus how she thinks things work as a vampire. The second is Angelus not so subtlety trying to teach Spike how she thinks things work as a vampire. I really enjoyed the "me and my women" line, especially after the scene where Dru tells Darla that Angelus is full of her. Even Dru knew the chain of command.

After Angelus is cursed, Darla definitely has a problem with his disgusting soul and the remorse he shows. Darla does not want any weakness around her to remind her of Jane's weakness. Darla even tries to get the gypsies to remove the curse; she wants her dear boy back. Why? She wants the control, she knows that she has no control over Dru or Spike, only Angelus. Sadly, Spike puts an end to that plan (burp).

The Darla we first met in Sunnydale is a different Darla. She has come back to the Master as to not be alone. Perhaps she was unable to locate another person to create a second Angelus. While with the Master, she gets away with murder. Not the killing kind (ok, that kind too), but the things she can do as the Master's favorite. Like eating from the Master's meal or the way she demands that he allows her to kill the Slayer.

On to Angel the series. Wolfram & Hart want Angel to join their team or at least, stop interfering with their plans, so they decide to bring Darla back. It is unclear if the had to bring her back as human or if they wanted or needed a human Darla for their plans. Either way, Darla is back and she is human.

So, who is it, Darla or Jane, or is it someone new? Darla/Jane isn't even sure. The person we first see is vicious and calculating like Darla, but when Angel informs her about her soul, things change rather quickly.

Comments about souls. It has been discussed on this board whether Angel has Liam's soul or a soul. The question can be extended to Jane. Does Jane have Jane's soul or a soul? Another question is what is Joss' world does a soul mean or do. The answer to both questions seems to be that we don't know. Until Joss and company definitively states how it all works, we can only speculate. So I speculate.

Angel is convinced that Jane will remember what Darla did and will feel guilt and pain as he did. Angel thinks this because that's what happened to Angel, and he wants to help Jane on the long slow road to redemption. Jane on the other hand, feels differently. Jane stated that this soul in her is a cancer that is eating away at her, a disgusting thing that needs to be removed. She asked Angel for help and he is certainly willing to, but not in the way that she wants. Then she is told that she is dying and she is even more intent to be vamped then ever.

Why the need to be vamped? Why is it a cancer eating away at her? Does she feel guilt about the things that Darla did? Here's my take on the subject. Jane presumably was born in England and came to the colonies. England, at the time, was a Christian country (no implication that they aren't now) and the colonies were founded by people looking for religious freedoms. Jane certainly knew about God and Satan and Heaven and Hell in the Christian sense. She must believe that the soul is immortal. When she died as Darla, there was nothing. She questioned whether Hell existed, but Angel tells her that there is Hell, a few of them. Jane and her soul can not be blamed for what the soulless Darla did.

Jane, before she knew about the syphilitic heart condition, wanted to be vamped because she didn't want to be the person she once was. After she knew that she truly was dying, she didn't want to spend eternity as the person she once was. As the soulless vampire, she has nothing to fear, as she knows that when and if she dies, she dies without a soul. She goes to the void, no pain, and no torment.

Finally, Angel in his quest to save Jane, so that he might save himself, shows Jane that she has value. She states that no one has ever shown her that before. She is now ready to face eternity with her human soul. Again, the Fates are not with her and Dru vamps her.

Darla has returned and she is not happy. At first it seems that she is angry with Dru and wants to know why she did it. Soon, though, her anger turns to Wolfram & Hart. Darla does not like to be used and sends a big message to them in the form of dead lawyers. She wants power; she has always sought power.

When Angel stops her plans, she goes to kill him, as she has been unsuccessful in turning him into her dear boy again. Angel has a different idea and freely gives himself to her, but alas, even though she has been alive for 400 years and used to do that professionally and I'm sure it was perfect, her dear boy will not come back to her.

So ends the story of Darla so far. At first, I was only intrigued by the beauty and voice of Julie Benz, but she has showed that there is really talent there as well. I can only hope we have not seen the last of a wonder character.

All scenes from Psyches transcripts site. So ends my character analysis as well. I hope you have found it interesting and I wait for your insight and comments. Thank you.
[> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Cactus Watcher, 22:59:42 09/12/01 Wed
I am definitely not a Julie Benz fan, but Darla is a very interesting character. I always felt that the love scenes between Angel and Darla last year lacked something, maybe sincerity, but I guess that was the whole point.
[> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Wiccagrrl, 23:13:24 09/12/01 Wed
A psychological and philosophical view of Jane Stride.

Jane is a self-loathing creature who views herself as something to be used and abused. Jane thinks that she is worthless and deserves everything that has happen to her in her short life. Something in her past has led her to a life of prostitution and to a life where she has turned her back on God. Perhaps she was molested or abused by a priest and no one, even her family, would believe her. Whatever it was, something terrible happened to baby Jane (sorry, I couldn't resist). When we met her, she is on her deathbed and seems resigned to her death, but death is not what the Fates have in store for her.

Humm. I dunno- "Jane" doesn't seem quite that cowwed to me. She seems angry and defiant. She knows she's going to die, but I don't really get the sense of self-loathing from her, or anything that implies that she buys into the idea that she "deserves" her fate. It is true that she doesn't seem to have much use for God, and figures he probably doesn't have much use for her. But she seemed to have used her "career" to build a life and some security for herself (although that career was responsible for the disease which would have cost her her life, and was clearly not an ideal way to make a living...but how many other ways were there for women to live, essentially, on their own terms in those days?)Rather than being someone who had been beaten down by life, she sort of struck me as someone who, even in the end, was railing againt the conventional roles she was expected to take on.
[> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Malandanza, 23:19:50 09/12/01 Wed
"...but I don't really get the sense of self-loathing from her..."

Then why did Darla kill the prostitute?
[> [> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- VampRiley, 18:15:45 09/13/01 Thu
" '...but I don't really get the sense of self-loathing from her...'

Then why did Darla kill the prostitute?' "

I got a theory, all though, I have absolutly no proof what so ever. So this is 100% pure speculation:

In my one Anthropolgy class today, we were discussing and anthropologist by the name of Claire E. Sterk who had done an EMIC enthnography on prostituition in the era of AIDS. In part of that discussion, we talked about how prostitution is stratified, with call girls being the upper class, those that live in brothels and such (i.e., in Las Vegas) as the middle class and the streetwalkers being the lower class. When Darla asks The Master, while she is still human, if he knows what she is, he says that she is a woman of some property. Now this puts her as at least middle class, if not the upper class.

ANGEL: I thought we were meeting in the Square.

The woman, who is of course DARLA, turns. There's a little blood running down from her mouth. DARLA: I ran into Lord Nichols... horrid little man...

CAMERA PANS DOWN TO THE GROUND. Lord Nichols lies dead, two vicious bite marks in his neck. DARLA: ...he was propositioning a streetwalker and dickering over the price - can you imagine? I told him I'd do him for nothing. ANGEL: (charmed) You're very charitable. DARLA: I so loathe cheap royalty.

He leans in, half-kisses half-licks the blood off her face. ANGEL: They all taste the same to me. DARLA: Mmmmmm... my boy does have the touch... ANGEL: Darla... DARLA: Yes...? ANGEL: Why'd you kill the streetwalker?

ANGLE - THE GROUND - Next to Lord Nichols, a dead prostitute.

DARLA: Oh, I just liked her.

Now, going on the basis that the memories of the now dead human influences the actions of the now unliving demon, what if she didn't "just like her"? What if there was a reason she had that made her dislike her because she was a streetwalker and was lower class. Maybe she thought streetwalkers were bad for her business. And now that she was a vamp, she felt like she was symbolically getting rid of the competion and her hatred of having to been a prostitute only increased her desire to do it. She wanted to kill something that represented her old life. A life that was going to lead to her death, had The Master not intervened. But I'm sure she didn't do it to "save" her from a painful death. All though, she could have said that she was saving her and not mean it literally. If she did, my supposition could be backed up more strongly. But she said "Oh, I just liked her." bleedin' writers.

Wow. (he said with a calm, yet surprised look on his face) This is the second time in my life when I've ever related something I learned in class to something that I actually like. I think I'm starting a trend for me and that is scary. *shudder*

[> [> [> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Malandanza, 07:09:29 09/14/01 Fri
"In my one Anthropolgy class today, we were discussing and anthropologist by the name of Claire E. Sterk who had done an EMIC enthnography on prostituition in the era of AIDS. In part of that discussion, we talked about how prostitution is stratified, with call girls being the upper class, those that live in brothels and such (i.e., in Las Vegas) as the middle class and the streetwalkers being the lower class. When Darla asks The Master, while she is still human, if he knows what she is, he says that she is a woman of some property. Now this puts her as at least middle class, if not the upper class."

Somehow, I doubt Darla had much competition in the sparsely populated colony. My guess would be that she was the only prostitute around. But perhaps she began as a streetwalker in England and acquired her wealth only after she emigrated (or was transported) to the New World. Or she might have begun as someone's abandoned mistress or as an honest endentured servant who had prostitution forced upon her. In any event, the scene you quoted is interesting because of the ambiguities and begs the question "why did the writers include it?" -- especially Angel's reaction to the dead streetwalker and Darla's counter-reaction. My feeling is that deep inside Darla's psyche is a hatred for the powerless life she lived when she was human -- even if she cannot consciously remember any of the details.

On another note -- the shooting script mentioned that the death scene was highly surreal because it was being shot from Darla's PoV. She was dying of disease that causes insanity -- was she "cured" when she became a vampire? Is it possible that Darla is still unbalanced as a vampire just as Kralik(sp?) kept his drug dependency? Could she been going through her unlife with everything seeming as surreal as that first scene with the Master?

OT -- your class sounds interesting. Did you discuss mobility between the three castes? Is it possible for women to begin as streetwalkers and work their way up to Callgirls (I can see downward mobility as a possibility for aging prostitutes, but I'm not sure how a woman would move up).
[> [> [> [> [> vamps suffering from human illnesses -- Helen, 07:41:08 09/14/01 Fri
If Kralik kept his mental problems and drug dependency, and Drusilla kept her madness, it would be credible to suggest that Darla continued to suffer from the effect of syphillitic condition, even if the sysmptoms didn't get any worse.

Her modus operandi seems to have remained consistent through her life and unlife - Darla was after all the first person we saw on BtVS, copping off with a teenager in the high school, before vamping out and killing him. Still using her body to get what she wants, four hundred years after her death.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- VampRiley, 10:21:15 09/14/01 Fri
The article we had to read for class was reprinted from the book Tricking and Tripping: Fieldwork on Prostitution in the Era of AIDS. There was nothing mentioned in the reprint about moving between castes. Nor was there any discussion in class about moving between castes. If there is anyway it could happen, it might be in that book. I havn't been able to find it. But it is unlikly that there would be any movement. In all caste systems that I've seen, whether it is for prostitution or for an entire country, once you start out in a particular caste (either by being born or brought into it) you stay there for your whole life and there is no chance to change your caste. But I can see how a streetwalker might, at least, get to the middle class. If a streetwalker's pimp dies, she might come across a sympathetic woman who runs a brothel who might take her in. But I'm not sure about someone moving from middle to upper class.
[> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Slayrunt, 23:35:01 09/12/01 Wed
Yes, that's true, but most of the self-loathing is shown in the rebirthed Jane and Darla's view of prostitutes and weakness in general.

The problem I found is that Darla may have started out as a throw-away character that developed importance with the Angel arc (not the arch-angel). The motivations and backstory changed to fit the new theory.
[> [> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Wiccagrrl, 00:07:51 09/13/01 Thu
Honest question- do you think "Jane" saw herself as weak? As being used? Or do you think she felt all along that she was doing most of the using? Even with The Master, despite his show of being in control and expecting her to do as she was told, she had him pretty well wrapped around her finger. (Not to mention, he allowed her to leave him when she became taken with Angelus and then took her back later)

Not trying to be arguementative, just having fun puzzling some of this out ;)
[> [> [> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Slayrunt, 00:29:27 09/13/01 Thu
Darla with the Master was doing what she had always done, that is use the only tool she knew to get what she wanted. My first draft said something to the effect that the Master was presumablely once a man and could fall to the charms of a pretty vamp face.

If the usee is using the user, who is the usee? I think that perhaps "Jane" thought at a superfical level that she was in control, but maybe later learned about real power from the Master.

I'm still trying to work it out myself.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Rufus, 00:53:59 09/13/01 Thu
I think that Darla was well aware that sex was the only way she could assert any power (if only transitory)over men. She needed them to survive, therefore a relationship based upon using was formed. When she became ill, Darla must have figured out that her only power was an illusion as the men she "used" simply evaporated, leaving her to die, alone. She would have been a pariah in her community, one allowed to exist as long as she remembered her place on the fringes of society. Becoming a vampire gave Darla more power than she ever had as a human. She now had the physical ability to intimidate the very type of man who used her for a bit of fun. I find it telling that she made a specific point of killing not just the type of man that would have paid for her services, but their families down to the last child. When she was returned to life a human, Darla still identified with herself as a vampire. As a person she felt powerless, alone. As a vampire she could at least get some sort of satisfaction making people suffer for her feelings of worthlessness. I think Darla killed the hooker because she wanted to erase that helpless person who only exists on the pocket change of a john. For whatever reason Darla was unable to feel love. Angel made her feel loved as a person, not a sexual toy, giving her an understanding of what life could have been if she had been just a regular person instead of a working girl.

Loved your essay.....:):)
[> [> [> [> [> [> What she said. Thanks Rufus -- Slayrunt, 01:11:09 09/13/01 Thu
That is exactly the words I was looking for. Thanks again.
[> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Kerri, 15:06:20 09/13/01 Thu
Vampires seem to go about killing whatever it is that they used to be and hated about themselves/their lives. Lium has a bad relationship with his father and thus Angel kills his own family and also takes pride in making families suffer(the way he arranged the bodies of the man's family in the flashback in "Amends"). Darla hated herself and her life. She hated being helpless and out of control. When she became a vampire she made up for this by taking control- destroying what she used to be both internally and externally(killing the prostitute).

Excellent essay slayrunt!!!
[> Nice job, Slayrunt. Wish we knew more about "Jane..." -- Wisewoman, 23:29:51 09/12/01 Wed
[> [> Thank you and agree about "Jane" -- Slayrunt, 23:36:41 09/12/01 Wed
[> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Marie, 02:44:31 09/13/01 Thu
Great post! Thinking about the life and times of 'Jane', it's easy to see, really, why she had the attitude she did. Can you just imagine the life of a prostitute in those days? Also explains her rather contemptuous attitude to Lindsey, and her scorn of Angel's love for Buffy. She never knew true love... or did she? I wonder what her original family life would have been like, what her mother and father had been like...

I hope that we haven't seen the last of her; I'd like to know how she gets on.

[> [> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- carniriel, 07:37:46 09/14/01 Fri
I am really enjoying this whole Posting Party thing, and I finally have something to add! I hope it is ok....

I always saw Darla as being very disdainful of others, and men in particular, using them for what she wanted. (Look how she treated Lindsey) Probably related to having been a prostitute. The only exceptions to this (in some ways anyway) being Angel and the Master. In particular with Angel, I think she is the evil Mother to his serial killer Son, and her vampiric mother-attitude is one reason for the different way she treats him. I guess you could go deeper into twisted family psychology! and I can't do that. Be interested to hear what you think.

BTW, I am in the UK, we have stranded American colleagues here, and are all thinking of you a lot. I think all of our flags are at half-mast, including the Union Jack on the Avon Fire Brigade Station right by our office.
[> Re: Darla: 1st Anniversary Posting Party -- Masq, 23:37:18 09/14/01 Fri
This thread isn't going anywhere!!

Ahem. Carry on. Just doing special board mistress incantations.

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