May 2001 posts
Does Darla still have an invitation into Buffy's
house? -- Halcyon, 01:05:58 05/01/01 Tue
Following the events of Epihany, Darla has apparently LA for good.
Now that she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Angel's sleeping
with Buffy = perfect happiness and that Angel's sleeping with
her= perfect despair, will she try to get some measure of revenge
on Angel by attempting to harm Buffy in someway? Remember Buffy
does not know that Darla has been raised and turned back into
a vampire and as far as I know the de-invite spell has not been
performed for Darla's access to Buffy's house.
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[> Re: Does Darla still have an invitation into Buffy's house?
-- Rufus, 02:12:13 05/01/01 Tue
Now that is a question....did Darlas dusting negate the invite...or
does it still stand...
I think that it could make for an good story about a surprise
visit for Buffy. And could you imagine if Darla were the one to
tell Buffy how Angel got his Epiphany?
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[> Re: Does Darla still have an invitation into Buffy's house?
-- Halcyon, 07:00:09 05/01/01 Tue
Spike knows that Darla has been raised and turned back into a
Vampire and some of what Angel has been up to recently. Will he
keep that information to himself or will he tell Buffy about it?
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[> [> Re: Does Darla still have an invitation into Buffy's
house? -- Lyn, 16:55:05 05/01/01 Tue
Buffy and Angel are pretty much living seperate lives now. Who
told Angel about Joyce? Was it Giles, or Willow? Or maybe spike
made a phone call? Dru went to Sunnydale to get Spike back. Did
she think to put Spike against Angel? Did Buffy tell Angel that
Dawn is the key? That Glory is a god? Maybe Wesley could find
something in his books about Glory that the other watchers don't
know. It doesn't seem like Angel and Buffy are telling each other
very much. I don't think he told her about the lawyers he locked
in the wine cellar.
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[> [> [> Re: Does Darla still have an invitation into
Buffy's house? -- Halcyon, 09:25:56 05/03/01 Thu
But Angel knows Darla was invited into Buffy's house, after all
he finds her after she feeds on Joyce. Do you't think better safe
than sorry - inform Buffy so the de invite spell could be performed
to prevent the possibility of Darla gaining access to Buffy's
house.
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[> Re: Does Darla still have an invitation into Buffy's house?
-- Sue, 23:25:47 05/01/01 Tue
Of course it is ultimately up to the writers (sorry for the bit
of reality here) but my guess would be no.
This comes from my belief that it is a different demon inside
this vampire, yes with the same memories of the other vampire,
but still a different vampire.
I am of the opinion that they didn't "bring back" Darla.
In the respect that they didn't snatch "Darla's" soul
out of wherever it was after Darla died. What they did, in my
opinion was they created a new body out of Darla's DNA(actually
they used magic, not science, but to put it into scientific terms
for a moment just to serve as a model they made a "clone"
of Darla.) Then into that body they stuck (still using magic)
all the memories that Darla had until Angel staked her.
The effect was almost exactly the same, and in that respect they
"brought back Darla", but to be technical it was a "different"
vampire who was invited into Buffy's house in season one. Different
but the same (if that makes any sense).
To sum it up. Darla is vamped by the Master (she dies?). Angel
slays Darla vamp. The demon within her either is destroyed, goes
into the vamp hell (is there a vampire afterlife?) whatever.
New Darla. Old Memories (I am resisting using the Star Trek hologram
analogy, but it is difficult). New Darla is vamped by Dru (New
Darla dies?) Different Demon enters body (as the other demon is
no more).
As this is a different Vampire, I would think that she would have
to be invited in. But again who knows? Perhaps since this new
vampire is so close to the original vampire who was invited in,
the rules get confused.
Cordy,
Gunn & Wesley's reaction to Angel's return to the fold. -- Halcyon,
04:37:07 05/01/01 Tue
On several websites I have seen several people attack the way
C, G & W acted towards Angel. One of the reasons given is that
they just dismissed his obssession with Darla. That is wrong for
a start. First Wesley knew that Angel had staked Darla three and
a half years, he had no reason other than the dreams Angel was
having to suspect Darla was back. Cordelia and Wesley tried reasoning
with Angel on several occasions from Dear Boy, the start of Guise
Will Be Guise, Darla and Reunion.
It is easy to commend C, G & W actions towards Angel after Reunion
but let's not forget how Angel acted towards them particularly
in Blood Money and Reprise.
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[> Re: Cordy, Gunn & Wesley's reaction to Angel's return to
the fold. -- Lyn, 16:47:51 05/01/01 Tue
Cordy believed in Angel when no one did. Sure she carries a cross
in her purse, keeps holy water in her desk, but they have gone
thru so much together (Doyle's death)and she really felt like
Angel was the one person in the world besides Wesley that she
could trust. She has really worked hard towards his goal of redemption
and then he locks the lawyers in the celler with Darla and Dru!
Then he fires them! (Remember "you can't fire me I'm vision
girl, Ha!)Beside Angel was the one place Cordy felt like she belonged
(since leaving high school). I don't think C, W, & G have been
near hard enough on Angel. He totally betrayed them. And it wasn't
Angelus, that they could at least understand that evil took over.
Wait till they find out that he did sleep with Darla, and risked
everything!!
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[> Re: Cordy, Gunn & Wesley's reaction to Angel's return to
the fold. -- Traveler, 22:32:49 05/01/01 Tue
The main problem I have with the whole situation is that they
never really tried to talk to him and understand why he was doing
the things he was doing. After he fired them, they more or less
let him go his own way, even though he was their friend and a
potential menace. Yeah, Angel did wrong, but they did too.
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[> [> Re: Cordy, Gunn & Wesley's reaction to Angel's return
to the fold. -- Halcyon, 09:40:53 05/03/01 Thu
Alright neither side is completely blameless in this matter, but
look how Angel treated them in Blood Money and the way he acted
towards her in Reprise. Since she started working for AI and following
Doyle's death Angel has been the one constant thing she thought
she had to rely upon and he goes of the deep end and fires her
like he did. Also Cordelia is the only one who expresses how much
she was hurt by Angel in Ephiany and Disharmony, after all he
'dared' to give all her clothes away probably including the Prom
Dress that Xander bought for her this was a reminder of her life
in Sunnydale before ending up in the appartment from Hell. (See
City Of through to Room With A Vu)
I think Cordelia may have also somehow learned about the video
of her and Wesley being broadcasted at the Charity do, with the
pair of them acting like prats. This may explain why she reacted
to Angel the way she did at the end of The Thin Dead Line, it
certainly did not help that one of her closest friends had nearly
died.
Identity (long, spoilers for "Intervention")
-- Humanitas, 12:27:35 05/01/01 Tue
One of the great themes of this season has been the search for
identity. The clearest example lately has been Spike (see Nina's
thread about the masks coming down and Rowan's reply, in particular),
but nearly all of the other major characters have been engaged
in a similar search. These are in no particular order:
Giles: As the season started, Giles was having a major identity
crisis. With the loss of both his jobs (librarian and Watcher),
and the growing realization that Buffy was really coming into
her own as a Slayer, he felt pretty useless. So much so, in fact
that he was considering going back to England, until Buffy effectively
gave him back his old identity as her Watcher. Even so, he still
felt at lose ends. Last season was tough for him:
BUFFY: How bored *were* you last year? GILES: I watched Passions
with Spike. Let us never speak of it. ---The Real Me
So he did things like buy a new sports car, classic sign of a
mid-life crisis. Taking over the Magic Shop helps a lot, though.
It gives him an identity independant of Buffy, which he will need
if she should suddenly reach her expiration date. As a side note,
Giles has an edge in re-defining himself over the other characters:
he's done it before, when he chose to not be Ripper any more.
Xander: We all thought we knew Xander. He's the Zeppo, the token
Normal Guy in the SG. In fact, my personal take on the show was
"I wanna be Giles. I know I'm really Xander, but I wanna
be Giles." Yeah, ok, he's the 'heart' of the group, but what
does that really mean? Now we know. Ever since "The Replacement,"
Xander has been given the only thing he ever really lacked: self-confidence.
Seeing his Suave Self from the outside allowed him to realize
that he did have those characteristics, that he was not doomed
to Scruffiness. This has removed the defeatism that was blocking
his development allowing him to become the most clear-headed of
the SG, his attitude toward Spike notwithstanding.
XANDER: I lied. See, what I think, you got burned with Angel,
then Riley shows up. BUFFY: I know the story, Xander. XANDER:
But you miss the point. You shut down, Buffy. And you've been
treating Riley like the rebound guy. When he's the one that comes
along once in a lifetime. (Buffy looks dismayed) He's never held
back with you. He's risked everything. And you're about to let
him fly because you don't like ultimatums? [Buffy's eyes begin
to water as Xander's words finally get through. ] XANDER: If he's
not the guy, if what he needs from you just isn't there, (shakes
head) let him go. Break his heart, and make it a clean break.
But if you really think you can love this guy ... I'm talking
scary, messy, no-emotions-barred need ... if you're ready for
that ... then think about what you're about to lose. [Buffy looks
up at him, then looks around anxiously. There are tears in her
eyes.] BUFFY: Xander... XANDER: Run. ---Into the Woods
In matters of the heart, Xander Harris is now officially The Man.
"Triangle" showed him having his own problems, of course,
but he is capable of working them through (and with Spike, of
all people!).
XANDER: And they get in these fights, and they're both looking
at me like I'm the referee. Also, sometimes I'll say something
about Anya, and Willow'll get this look, this, um, "what
the hell do you see in her" look. SPIKE: I know that look.
Lot of people never really got Dru, you know. XANDER: Well, she
was insane. (Spike looks offended) Then it's like, well, I get
all torn. Because, Willow's my best friend and I really value
her opinion, but, uh, Anya's my girlfriend, you know? ---Triangle
Ok, still a little insensitive, but he does still have Issues
with Spike. Anyway, the point is that Xander has suddenly become
more adult-like, both in the material things (his new apartment,
etc.), and in his relationship with Anya. He still has a way to
go, but he is definitely out of the mire he started the season
in.
Anya: Anya has become decidedly more human this season. Her reactions
to Willow in "Triangle" and to Joyce's death in "The
Body" clearly show her strugling with her human identity,
but they also show her making progress. The scene between her
and Xander where they are discussing children and the purpose
of sex (I couldn't find this one, but I think it's in "Intervention")
is particularly telling.
Tara: Tara's identity issue is essentially contained in "Family."
It seems cut and dried thus far: Tara belived that she was part
demon, because her family told her that she was. It turns out
that she is not. She had to accept this change in her identity,
and in who she identifies as her 'family.' I have to wonder if
the twisted mind of Joss will allow it to remain that simple,
or if there really is more to Tara than meets the eye.
Willow: Willow is really the exception to the rule. Her identity
shift came last year, when she fell in love with Tara. She is
still coming to grips with her powers, of course, and desperately
needs to aquire a sense of responsibility for the consequences
of using those powers, but she's pretty much the same now as she
was at the beginning of the season.
Dawn: Dawn's search for identity is wrapped up in her discovery
that she is in fact The Key, that she is in a sense an artificial
person. That is, to say the least, a little hard for her to take.
It drives her to do things like cut one of her wrists open ("Blood
Ties"). Ultimately, we end up considering how identity is
constructed. In Dawn's case, it is made up of memories, shared
and otherwise. She has to learn that, at least in this case, Perception
is more important than Truth.
BUFFY: Are you okay? Did she hurt you? DAWN: Why do you care?
BUFFY: Because I love you. You're my sister. DAWN: No I'm not.
BUFFY: Yes you are. (Lifts Dawn's arm, so we can see her arm and
hand are still bloody) Look, it's blood. It's Summers blood. [Buffy
presses her hand against the tire-iron wound on her shoulder,
wincing a little. She clasps her bloody hand in Dawn's bloody
hand.] BUFFY: It's just like mine. It doesn't matter where you
came from, or, or how you got here. You are my sister. (pause)
There's no way you could annoy me so much if you weren't. ---Blood
Ties
Dawn's search for Identity seems to have reached, if not a resoultion,
at least a pause. No doubt it will continue as we learn more about
the Key and it's function.
Buffy: Buffy's continuing efforts to incorporate her identity
as the Slayer into her Identity as Buffy Summers are the driving
force of the series as a whole. This season, she has become more
aware of those efforts, and has started to pursue them on a concious
level. This process was triggered by Dracula's claim that her
"power is rooted in darkness" in "Before Dawn."
Buffy feels for much of the season like her 'Slayerness' is overwhelming
her 'Buffyness,' that it just gets harder and harder for her to
love, to be a human being, rather than the super-human Slayer.
Her vision-quest in "Intervention," while cryptic, did
provide her with some re-assurance, while at the same time giving
her cause to worry, because, while she is "full of love,"
"death is her gift."
The funny part, of course, is that Joss told us that this season
was going to be about identity, way back in (surprise, surprise)
"Restless." I'll leave that analysis to someone else,
but in hindsight it seems pretty clear.
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[> Re: Identity (long, spoilers for "Intervention")
-- Lyn, 17:06:07 05/01/01 Tue
I think the characters search for identity just makes the show
more enjoyable. Don't we all search, all of our lives? In school
we search...are we a member of the "cool" group?..or
the smart group?..or the athletes?..Then we search for identity
as a couple, with our mate, then as a parent, in our jobs our
titles define us, as we grow older we search for identity as a
grandparent. It( the search they embark upon) makes the characters
more human, even the demon ones.
glory's latest victim (spoileriffic)
-- dan, 19:22:12 05/01/01 Tue
spoiler space...
5 * * * * 4 * * * * 3 * * * * 2 * * * 1
whew! this season of buffy's really put me through the wringer
- i'm tearing up every other ep, it seems like, and i certainly
did tonight when willow said the line about tara "she's my
girl." any thoughts about tara's fate in the future (and,
by extension, the fate of glory's other victims)?
my guess is that when glory gets dusted, that her victims will
be restored back to normalcy... somewhat. sort of like they had
a mild stroke. but judging from joss' comments he's made about
tara's character, i'm betting she's on next season; and moreover,
tara around in the vegetable state she's in right now would put
a *major* hamper on willow's character. so much of willow would
be all about her taking care of tara, it would preclude any other
character development for her.
thoughts?
-d
ps - i'm delurking after having read this forum for a few months;
i always enjoy reading it b/c of the thoughtfulness of the posts.
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[> Re: glory's latest victim (spoileriffic) -- Solitude1056,
19:53:39 05/01/01 Tue
ok, spoiler space to return the favor...
(is that too much?)
anyway... agreed about Tara. I was sort of hoping that Willow
was actually being all business to restore Tara, but it was much
more satisfactory seeing her (at least momentarily) kick Glory's
ass. Ok, not kick her ass completely, but Willow did slow her
down a little. Looks like that's the secret: a combined set of
forces might do the trick. Glory can hold up against one, but
she can be worn down. And while I'm at it, there's another early-season
spoiler that's (so far) not shown up. Wah. What was all that about
Willow doing a spell & unbeknownst to her, Anya & Tara are helping
her out, and somehow this may damage Willow & Tara's relationship?
Given that Tara's a) mentally on vacation and b) she just spilled
the news about who's-who on the Monk Lineup of New Fake People,
I can't see much more damage being done...
but they'd better bring Tara back (and not just as the local vegetable
garden) - I really like her character. I'll stop before I'm reduced
to fan-like gushing, however.
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[> [> Re: glory's latest victim (spoileriffic) -- rowan,
20:09:40 05/01/01 Tue
I thought it was interesting that Willow seemed almost more effective
against Glory than Buffy. I don't recall Buffy really "tiring"
Glory out (as Glory mentioned) the way Willow was able to.
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[> [> [> Re: glory's latest victim (spoileriffic) --
Javoher, 11:43:01 05/02/01 Wed
Glory said a couple times "That witch really slowed me down"
or words to that effect. I haven't been able to figure out what
spell Willow was saying while she was running towards Tara, but
could that have had an effect on Glory?
Or could it be that Tara, being a pretty powerful witch by herself,
had the effect of 100 proof vodka and made Glory a little drunk?
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[> [> [> [> Re: glory's latest victim (spoileriffic)
-- Masquerade, 12:18:10 05/02/01 Wed
I think Glory was buzzed after feeding from Tara. Glad to see
you made it back onto the board!
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: glory's latest victim (spoileriffic)
-- Javoher, 17:46:40 05/03/01 Thu
Thanks, but the main message board continues to act up for me.
I just type in the URL's of individual messages, and then sometimes
the navigation links, "next thread", "next message"
work and sometimes they don't. I've cleared all caches twice and
used three different computers. Has anyone else had any problems
navigating this board?
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[> [> [> [> Re: glory's latest victim (spoileriffic)
-- rowan, 17:19:07 05/02/01 Wed
I'll have to check my tape, but I thought that it was just a spell
to locate Tara.
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[> [> [> [> Re: glory's latest victim (spoileriffic)
-- Rufus, 18:39:50 05/02/01 Wed
Glory said:
"I think I'm getting a little buzzed from eating that witch.
What a mind she had."
So I do wonder if the fact that Tara was so stable and calm if
that would last longer for a god that is losing it?
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[> [> Vegetable garden...LOL...... -- Rufus, 21:24:50 05/01/01
Tue
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[> Re: Welcome, delurking dan! Pleased to have you join our
merry band! -- OnM, 09:38:56 05/02/01 Wed
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[> that expression... -- Solitude1056, 17:26:48 05/02/01 Wed
Ok, strange image that's been returning to my head repeatedly
as I think back to the episode. This image that for some reason
that stands out so clearly is Tara's expression just before Glory
starts the vacuum cleaner routine. It was like her face hardened
somehow, as if she'd made a decision of some sort. Now granted,
I imagine it's hard to think straight when someone's crushing
your hand into little bits - and amazing to me that Tara didn't
holler about it - but that last expression seemed awfully... something.
I can't put my finger on it. I'd like to think Tara was doing
something internally - since she's not exactly without resources
herself. I don't know what one could do prior to having your sanity
sucked dry, but I've been curious as to whether Glory's post-brain
buzz (and subsequent weakening during Willow's onslaught) weren't
due to something Tara did in those last few seconds. Did anyone
else notice it, and anyone have any ideas?
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[> [> Re: that expression... -- Jessica, 16:48:48 05/04/01
Fri
I also think that Tara did something before Glory brainsuck her.
A few seconds before Glory did her thing Tara was scared (who
wouldn't be) then it seems she was doing something like a spell,
and then she had a resolve face like she tought she did everything
she could to protect Dawn and the scoobies and that Glory would
get more than she bargain for. Tara seem to be more together than
Glory's other victims, maybe what she was saying was some kind
of message to the scoobies. Maybe Tara will know and be able to
tell the gang Glory's weaknesses because she was linked to her.
I also think that Tara is a more powerful witch than she lets
on, maybe she's scared or something happenned in the past to make
her restrain her powers, maybe now will see her do powerful magic
and maybe find her way out of madness on her own.
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[> [> [> Re: Tara vs Willow -- FanMan, 12:57:42 05/05/01
Sat
Tara seems to be more in line with Wicca spirituality, she thinks
of the morallity and consiquences of magic. And it is a familly
tradition, her mom probebly gave her a history of spells with
bad results in her familly. For natural witches that conversation
would be as natural as a talk about sex, drugs, and old people
with candy...eeew!
Tara is more fem/emotional of the two also. Willow is not masculine,
but she is the intillect vs Tara and intuition. Willow does spells
in the same way as a science project. Willow does spells for results.
I think Tara is equal to Willow, but she still has self-esteem
problems from her familly. Also, she holds herself back because
magic is "messing with the natural order" Tara also
seems to have a form of ESP that is like empathy/aura-awareness.
If her aura-awareness gave her any insight into Glory, she might
have intuitavely done something that would preserve her personality
more than other victums of Glory.
Scratch 'n Sniff (Tough Love Spoilers)
-- Solitude1056, 20:11:00 05/01/01 Tue
ok, spoiler space just to be nice (for those of you still waiting
for the episode to air)...
Ok, first we have Glory sniffing Spike, and then licking Tara's
mutilated bloody hand. It appears that this is the way she determines
if it's the Key. But at the very beginning, it was stated implicitly
- and later explicitly - that insane/crazy people could see the
Key. Glory herself, as shown repeatedly, is a few napkins short
of a picnic. And she seems perfectly aware of what she's leaving
behind in her victims when she feeds off them; it somehow appears
to be her own insanity, as if she's trading sanity for insanity
with them. I'm wondering if, when she's at the verge of non-feediness
and insanity, that she might be able to see the Key by just looking
at it. But by displacing her insanity into humans, she removes
herself somehow from that being-able-to-see. Not sure here, just
postulating, but did anyone else get all that?
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[> Re: Scratch 'n Sniff (Tough Love Spoilers) -- rowan, 20:15:19
05/01/01 Tue
Well, I'm not sure, but that spoiler that mentions Glory will
need to bleed Dawn to death to start the apocalypse is making
more sense now that I've seen the scratch, sniff, and taste-testing
she's been doing with everyone's blood.
I supposed (as I was watching) that Glory knew the hell Tara was
about to face after the brainsuck so well because Glory had experienced
it herself. I wonder if that was her fate in hell (or wherever
she was before she got here).
It seems clear Glory can't see The Key, or else she would have
already known it was Dawn in the episode at the hospital when
the Ben to Glory morph occurred. But could she degenerate to the
point where she could see it if she couldn't feed? I'm not sure
we've seen enough to know that.
Reactions from One Who Feels Brainsucked
(Spoilers Ahead for Last 3 Eps) -- rowan, 20:31:28 05/01/01 Tue
Okay, let me give some spoiler space, too.
7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Here are just some first reactions to Tough Love.
1. The eps are starting to go by so fast! The first time I looked
at the clock, 45 minutes of the ep was gone. Now that they've
got this Glory storyline cranking, I feel like I can't wait for
4 separate eps -- I want 2 hours at time.
2. How about Spike calling Dawn platelet?! That's a new one, isn't
it? Niblet, little bit, bitty Buffy...LOL.
3. Willow really kicked some skanky, lopsided, fashion victim
ex-god a**, didn't she? She managed to slow Glory down more than
Buffy has been able to in the past. It looks like she's going
to get even more power in at least the next 2 episodes.
4. Did you notice the new tone in their voices when Buffy and
Spike conversed (what are those, tunnels under the crypt?). Anyway,
when Spike told Buffy that Willow would go after Glory, his tone
of voice totally lost the usual sarcasm, and Buffy actually listened
to him for once (although it took Dawn to convince her). Times,
they are a changing (at least for now).
5. What did Giles do to the scabby minion to get him to talk?
Was this a Ripper moment that was too gruesome to show us?
6. Poor Tara. Enough said.
7. Poor Dawn. I must admit, her scene with Spike was really touching.
You could feel her pain. And check out Spike, providing comfort,
of all things! Compare this scene to the one in Crush: similarities,
but interesting differences.
8. Xander finally got a haircut - yea!
9. So, did anyone get the impression from the preview that Ben
will be the one to betray them? It appeared as if he will change
from Ben to Glory in front of them, and that's how Glory gets
Dawn (or am I jumping to conclusions).
10. How about Spike telling Dawn, 'I know evil, and you're not
evil', then telling her when she's afraid she can't be good: 'well,
I'm not good and I'm okay." Spike certainly doesn't need
any self-help books, does he? I guess atonement is still an unknown
word to Spike.
IMHO, another great episode. I can't wait for Spiral!
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[> Re: Reactions from One Who Feels Brainsucked (Spoilers Ahead
for Last 3 Eps) -- Solitude1056, 20:57:43 05/01/01 Tue
Ok, ok, so maybe it's true that AtltS:
10. How about Spike telling Dawn, 'I know evil, and you're not
evil', then telling her when she's afraid she can't be good: 'well,
I'm not good and I'm okay." Spike certainly doesn't need
any self-help books, does he? I guess atonement is still an unknown
word to Spike.
Ok, granted, but think about it... Dawn's major fear is that the
bad things happening must mean she is also bad, somehow. She'd
come to this conclusion whether it was Spike with her or anyone
else - but if anyone else said, "Oh, no, Dawn, you're not
evil" it's akin to Willow trying to empathize with Buffy
about what Buffy's going through post-Joyce-death. They can't,
she can't, and just as Buffy knows Willow's guessing, so would
Dawn if anyone else tried to reassure her. But how you gonna argue
with Spike, yanno? He may be a poser but he's certainly ripped
it up with the best of them anyway, and he's definitively got
the authority to claim to know Evil when he sees it.
What I thought interesting was that Spike's interaction with Dawn
closely mirrored Gile's interaction with Buffy, at the start of
the episode. This is definitely working into a Key & Protector
relationship, similar to the Slayer & Watcher relationship...
or at least, that's my gut instinct about it. (And was Spike feeling
peckish with Dawn, or just wanting to console her - that quick
hand motion up & smooth the 'do rather than reveal he was about
to touch her...)
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[> [> Don't get me wrong -- I loved Spike's advice to Dawn.
It's just so Spike. -- rowan, 21:10:28 05/01/01 Tue
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[> Re: Secondary meaning to 'platelet' ? (Endseason spoiler)
-- OnM, 09:36:01 05/02/01 Wed
Don't pretend to be any kind of expert on things medical, but
if I recall correctly, aren't platelets the component of blood
that makes clotting possible?
Recent spoilers I have come across suggest that the purpose of
the Key is that it can unlock the 'barriers' that hold the various
differing dimensions of the universe apart, so all would collapse
into one gihugic megaverse-- humans, demons, hells, strip malls,
all together as one, all bleeding into one another.
So, you could visualize Dawn as 'the clotting factor'?
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[> [> Re: Secondary meaning to 'platelet' ? (Endseason spoiler)
-- Rufus, 15:27:44 05/02/01 Wed
OnM may I take this moment to go...blood clots...ewwwwwwwwww....yes,
platelets do function to arrest bleeding. Lets call it blood coagulation.
Glory has said that the key is pure....and when she licked Taras
hand like a lollipop she noticed the impure blood right away.
So I do like how you have put the blood thing. Think of the other
realities as wanting to make a tear or wound to pass into other
dimensions, so it makes sense that you would want a clotting factor
there to seal it up.
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[> [> [> Re: Secondary meaning to 'platelet' ? (Endseason
spoiler) -- rowan, 17:14:48 05/02/01 Wed
Yes, I thought it was interesting given all the bloodletting spoilers
floating around about Dawn that Spike suddenly called her platelet.
Does this mean she has the ability to stop the apocalpyse as well
as start it?
Also, considering Glory just found out The Key is human, where
did she suddenly come up with this bloodtasting routine?
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[> [> [> [> Re: Secondary meaning to 'platelet' ?
(Endseason spoiler) -- Solitude1056, 17:19:06 05/02/01 Wed
Not to mention, how the hell would you bleed a bicycle pump to
death, anyway? *grin*
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Secondary meaning to 'platelet'
? (Endseason spoiler) -- Cleanthes, 17:27:26 05/02/01 Wed
I have had more than one bicycle pump die on me, usually with
the tire only half inflated. Sometimes lack of lubrication caused
the problem. Perhaps some hell god licked off all the grease?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Secondary meaning to 'platelet'
? (Endseason spoiler) -- Rufus, 18:23:05 05/02/01 Wed
That's it....two gross outs today....clots and grease...or is
the puzzle of the season finale making us just silly?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Secondary meaning
to 'platelet' ? (Endseason spoiler) -- FanMan, 18:26:45 05/02/01
Wed
The puzzle of the end deason is making us silly! Dawn the blood
clot?...LOL
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ahh... the clot
thickens! -- Solitude1056, 18:39:36 05/02/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ...the clot
thickens... *snerk* -- Masquerade, 09:03:01 05/03/01 Thu
But you know if this metaphor turns out to be more or less applicable,
I'll be usurping all your posts for my site. It's concrete and
easy to understand, but it also has an emotional impact. Plus
blood and Buffy just kind of go together. The whole vampire thing,
you know.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
...the clot thickens... *snerk* -- Solitude1056, 09:16:44 05/03/01
Thu
usurping all *my* posts? Yikes. Okay, the pun was bad, but come
on, some thing simply cannot be resisted. Share the love, make
everyone else suffer, too!
:)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
That was a collective "your" : ) -- Masquerade, 11:55:30
05/03/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: That was a collective "your" : ) -- Rufus,
13:25:38 05/03/01 Thu
I still can't get over the "lick test" for purity...yuck....but
it would save money on those pesky strips....:):):)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Speaking of blood... (Tough Love & End of Season Spoilers) --
Umbriel, 12:27:17 05/03/01 Thu
I'm delurking here -
Possible spoiler ahead * * * * * * * * * *
I found it very interesting that it was the key's blood that Glory
was after in Tough Love. Now, it could be that tasting a person's
blood is simply one way that she can tell whether or not that
person is the key, and that actually using the key would require
some other action. However, it could also be (and I'm leaning
towards this) that consuming Dawn or her blood is how the key
is used, or that Dawn's blood has special properties because she
is the key. If Dawn's blood is special in some way, what happens
when a vampire (or a slayer or human, for that matter) drinks
it? Could it cause a significant change in that individual? One
scenario that could result if this is the case: Dawn allows Spike
to bite her, either because turning Dawn into a vampire would
somehow prevent Glory from getting the key (vampires after all,
can't be the key), or because her blood would somehow heal or
restore him (although I'm not sure he would voluntarily become
good or human). Or he gets the chip out, gets a little hungry
and his meal has unexpected results - for good or evil, I don't
know. I do think we will eventually get more explanation for what
Doc said about having seen Spike with dark hair playing dominoes,
and while this could easily refer to the past (although you'd
think Spike would remember it then, wouldn't you?) perhaps Doc
is seeing a possible future in which Spike has changed. Doc could
have prophetic visions and think they're reality or be a being
who drifts in time somehow.
And on a somewhat related note, at the beginning of the season,
when Buffy tasted Dracula's blood, it seemed to give her extra
power and interesting visions. I wonder if a nip of vampire blood
could give her extra power against Glory? I kind of hope not,
because it seems like a dark and disgusting way to go (as is Dawn
becoming a vampire), but from what we saw in the teaser for next
week's episode it looks like things are going to get pretty desperate
in Sunnydale before it's all over.
Anyhow, I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts and I'm glad to
get all this crazy speculation out of my system!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Here we go! -- rowan, 21:07:05 05/03/01 Thu
Well, I've been thinking some crazy stuff along those lines too.
What if Dawn is near death from being bled out by Glory, so Spike
has to finish her off and vamps her? Or if Spike for some other
reason consumes the blood? This could be a way out of the Spike
without a soul dilemna and also could reinforce this link alot
of people are sensing between Dawn and Spike (anyone notice that
Dawn's just a little younger than Buffy was when she met Angel?)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Practical Concerns -- Malandanza, 18:54:59 05/04/01
Fri
The last pre-adult vampire we saw was the annoited one -- he had
to be eliminated from the show because the actor was going through
to many physical changes (and vampires are not supposed to go
through puberty). MT is still quite young and is likely to look
a bit different as she continues to age -- it is unlikely that
Joss & the writers would vamp her if they intended to keep her
on the show for any extended period of time.
The Angel/Buffy romance was acceptable because the actors were
both in their twenties at the time. To have a child actress playing
a romantic part opposite an adult would generate unnecessary notoriety.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Practical Concerns -- rowan, 19:37:06 05/04/01
Fri
Yes, I guess I wasn't thinking immediately (like next season),
but you're right I had forgotten too that JM is about 32 (more
than twice her age), so it would be rather shocking.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Practical Concerns -- Umbriel, 20:40:00
05/04/01 Fri
It's possible that the writers planned a 1 to 2 season storyline
with a tragic ending (like becoming a vampire) when they created
Dawn's character. It would be in line with what we've heard about
needing a hanky at the end of the season. The thing is, I think
Dawn has become a very interesting character with a great presence,
so if I were them I would want to find a way to keep her. A romance
with Spike does seem unlikely for the reasons you give above.
What I'm interested in is whether her blood might have unusual
properties, and whether tasting it might have some kind of transformative
effect on a vampire (or even a human). She doesn't have to become
a vampire for this to happen. The writers could have had Glory
do any number of things as a test to see whether Tara was the
key, but they chose blood tasting, something a vampire would also
be likely to do. Maybe they just wanted to show Glory's disgustingly
evil nature by making giving her cannibalistic appetites, or maybe
this is something more. I guess we'll find out soon, at least!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Practical Concerns &
Summers Blood (spoilers for season ender ep) -- rowan, 21:12:43
05/08/01 Tue
Yes, this is a very interesting theory about Dawn's blood. After
seeing Wanda's latest batch of spoilers (which include a horrible,
bone-crunching fall for Spike), it begs the question: Will Spike
need some human blood to heal (like Angel before him) and who
will it come from? And if it came from Dawn, would that blood
have any special properties that would change him in any way?
Because, of course, he would then have Summers blood and be part
of their family, wouldn't he? And if Buffy does sacrifice herself
as rumored, then Spike would be Dawn's family (unless Hank reappears).
Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love) -- Simplicity, 22:08:29
05/01/01 Tue
Spoiler Space * * * * * * * * * * I was gratified to see a momentary
Ripper appearance (twice in one season!!). I also wonder what
type of torture he inflicted on the minion. Obviously, it was
nasty enough that he wanted to keep it from Anya and Willow but
quick and effective! Love the way his demeanor changed, his voice
had no trace of the "Giles stutter" and his tone quiet
but menacing (You're talking quite a lot, just not about the right
things.).
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[> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love) -- Sue, 23:04:23
05/01/01 Tue
I loved seeing "the Ripper" as well. I like it when
"the Ripper" comes out and takes charge.
In many ways Giles shined tonight, in others, though I was quite
disappointed.
Giles was correct of course about Buffy being the one to take
point with laying down the law with Dawn, but I sensed within
him a pulling back from Buffy that I think was unhealthy.
Yes, Buffy needed to take point, but Giles should have been there
to back her up. Buffy might have been an adult, but she is just
an adult, a new adult. Dawn needs Buffy to set her right, Buffy
is the one that she is most likely to listen to, but Giles needs
to be an adult role model as well for Dawn.
Giles distanced himself from Buffy at the time she needs him the
most. When Buffy last week told Giles that she loved him, he didn't
seem affected at all. Yes, I realize he is British, and I didn't
expect him to break down and hug her or anything like that, but
still it seems like he has regressed. Talking about her training.
"You were doing so well." Reminds me of a "Watcher's
Council" type watcher. The type that would allow the girl
he trained to be drugged and then thrown in with a vampire without
her powers. I thought Giles has now realized that being a "Watcher"
is about more than the training.
I can't quite put my finger on it, and on a surface level he is
doing the right things, I don't know if I am explaining myself
well. But I guess it centers on how he has avoided Dawn. He said
that Buffy is Dawn's only family now (besides Hank who may or
may not be a vampire right now). And technically that is correct.
But on another level, on the level where all these friends have
formed a sort of family, Giles is the adult of the group. He is
Buffy's watcher. He is her Master (in the eastern sense of the
word), and as such should provide guidance to her, but also by
extension her sister as well. He needs to be a 'watcher' for Dawn,
a mentor, a master. Yet he is running from that role.
Does he feel like he was a failure as a watcher for Buffy? Is
that why he won't open himself up to help Dawn?
Dawn is strong. She is good, and she does care. But she doesn't
have all the benefits Buffy did when she grew up. Sure Dawn doesn't
have slayer strength, but Giles could teach her self-defense.
He could teach her magic. He could teach her all the things he
had to learn to become a Watcher. Those skills are important for
someone who is near the Slayer and who lives so close to the Hellmouth.
It was great to see Giles take out one of Glory's minions. That
was one of the areas where he shined. And again, the advice he
gave to Buffy was important. She is going to have to be a grown-up
for Dawn. But by the same token Giles is going to have to be a
grown-up for both Dawn and Buffy. Buffy can't do it alone. And
as an adult friend of the family, Giles is really going to have
to get involved in Dawn's life as a mentor, which will take the
pressure off Buffy.
Dawn is a good kid. So is Buffy. But even good kids like Buffy
and Dawn could use some help from adult friends to make life a
little easier. As Buffy's "Watcher" as her "friend"
as practically her second father, he should feel compelled to
help, yet he is pulling away. Transforming back into dispassionate
"Watcher" instead of involved "Watcher."
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[> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love) -- Solitude1056,
06:36:45 05/02/01 Wed
I didn't get the impression that Giles was "pulling back,"
but that he was doing something that even parents have to do at
some point: and that's let the kid face facts that it's time s/he
grow up & do it hirself. It's not Giles' place to administer Dawn's
life as a pseudo-parent, and if he does so, it only risks undermining
Dawn's relationship with, and respect for, Buffy. Giles could
do it temporarily but the longer he's the "adult" for
both B & D, the harder it'd be for Buffy to take that role over.
Giles supports her, and he knows it's not easy, but he's not going
to do it for her. He hasn't before, and even less so as she matures.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love)
-- Sue, 19:08:32 05/02/01 Wed
You are probably right. Giles needed to do what he did (but still
part of me thinks he should have stood right behind Buffy when
she was talking to Dawn). But Giles does have a role in Dawn's
life, and he needs to accept that role as her mentor.
Hey, it is either him or Doc. That's the choices. Personally I
would much perfer Giles as Dawn's mentor.
And of course, there's always Spike.
Giles needs to get involved in Dawn's life, and quick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough
Love) -- Solitude1056, 20:09:22 05/02/01 Wed
Odd, you didn't mention Xander as a male role model, and given
the options, I'd say he's as good a choice as Giles. Then again,
I still say the most important person in Dawn's life right now
isn't some male role model, but Buffy, and at this point, it's
probably only Buffy.
And based on the cliffhanger of the latest episode, it's Buffy
and only Buffy who's going to be there 100% of the time to be
Dawn's guardian in every sense of the word. So I think Giles was
right - Buffy needs to start now with Dawn trusting her as an
authority. There won't be time, when fighting Glory, for Dawn
to doubt or hesitate when Buffy calls the shots.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for
Tough Love) -- Sue, 06:02:54 05/03/01 Thu
Buffy is certainly a very important person in Dawn's life. The
most important person in Dawn's life, but I still say that Giles
has a role too.
He is the only real adult among them.
He needs to be Dawn's "Watcher" as well as Buffy's.
Sure that might not be in the Watcher's Handbook, but by now I
thought he has learned that there is that a lot isn't in there.
I don't believe Giles failed as Buffy's Watcher. Dawn needs that
same type of guidance. She might not have super powers but she
is a very super person. Giles could provide Dawn with the adult
mentor she so needs. She will seek one out if Giles doesn't rise
up to that role. She will find her mentor on the streets (Doc?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Watcher not Father -- Scott L., 20:11:29 05/02/01
Wed
I think Giles was right on the money with his advice to Buffy.
Dawn has been feeling like she's a burden for Buffy, that Buffy
doesn't want her around. She feels unreal and unimportant.
Buffy accepting the role of caregiver, provider, and disciplinarian
is going to help Dawn through those emotions.
It isn't Giles' role to be a parent to Dawn. It is his role to
be a disciplinarian for Buffy and that is just what he did. He
told her that she needed to accept responsibility and provide
guidance. That is the advice that will bring Buffy to maturity,
even if it is a bumpy road.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Watcher not Father -- Sue, 06:06:46 05/03/01
Thu
"It isn't Giles' role to be a parent to Dawn."
Maybe not exactly a parent, but Giles should have a role in Dawn's
life. A mentor's role.
It seems like Giles still wants to be a teenager in many ways.
While the advice he gave Buffy was sound and correct for that
circumstance, Giles must step up as well.
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[> [> [> Re: Watcher not Father -- Sue, 06:11:30 05/03/01
Thu
A watcher might not exactly be a "father". Giles isn't
Buffy's father. However the role of Watcher and the role of father
has some similaries.
When I think of the duty of the "watcher" I think of
the term "master" in the eastern sense of the term.
Giles is supposed to train Buffy and show her the path of being
Slayer.
Dawn as well needs some mentoring. Why Giles? Because he is the
only one who can do it. Not that others aren't willing. I am sure
Doc would be more than happy to show Dawn the way. But I don't
think we would be happy with the way Doc would show her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love) -- Leah, 09:08:21
05/02/01 Wed
Am I the only one who thought Giles didn't do anything to the
minion? I thought the whole point of that was to show how unloyal
Glory's minions are in contrast to how the Scoobies are willing
to die to protect Buffy and Dawm.
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[> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love) -- Cleanthes,
09:20:11 05/02/01 Wed
I thought he did nothing more than fix the minion with a steely-eyed
Ripper stare, too. Oh, and he threatened to tie the minion up
with twine -- so I figured that the minion had seen too many Glory-tortures
not to have a vivid imagination about what would happen next.
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[> [> [> Re: When the going gets tough, the tough subcontract...
-- OnM, 09:26:19 05/02/01 Wed
Perhaps Giles leaned over and whispered to the minion that he
didn't need to torture the minion himself-- he would just inform
Glory that said minion had betrayed her, and then allow events
to proceed naturally from that point on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Maybe, but I heard -- Jen C., 10:44:04
05/02/01 Wed
a disturbing "crunching" sound just as Willow and Anya
turned towards the twine on the counter. I personally think that
Giles twisted the minions nasty, ugly nose.
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[> [> [> [> Re: When the going gets tough, the tough
subcontract... -- Rufus, 14:36:28 05/02/01 Wed
I answered this in a thread further up...watch Giles closely...he
has a habit that is consistant everytime he uses the Ripper mode
of questioning. As Giles he has a habit of compulsively cleaning
his glasses with his handkerchief....as Ripper he wipes his hands
after punching someone out.....he does that everytime...plus the
tone of his voice changes...he holds no simple interview, he beats
the sh*t out of the person....only as much force as he feels is
required. His voice also changes and he means business...plus
he distracted the girls so they wouldn't see what he was doing.
The Ripper is a nasty piece of work.
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[> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love) -- Shaglio,
11:51:26 05/02/01 Wed
When they went to get the twine, I thought I heard a crunching,
grinding sound. I wasn't sure if the noise came from the TV or
from somewhere in my room since I turned to look at my computer
at that exact moment. Too bad I don't tape the episode so I can
go back and rewatch that scene.
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[> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love) -- Max,
19:50:04 05/02/01 Wed
I don't think Giles did anything.
The minion was a coward. Just the threat of tying the minion up
was enough to make him crack.
This scene was to contrast the minion's cowardness with Tara's
courage.
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[> [> [> Re: Ripper's Return (Spoilers for Tough Love)
-- Sebastian, 20:20:07 05/02/01 Wed
I've been reading this debate all day at work.
When I returned home - I replayed the scene itht the volume WAY
up.
There *IS* a crunching noise when Anya and Willow are turned away.
Although I'm sure the contrast was still done apurpose. Tara refuses
to yield despite having her hand crushed to the point where it
bled in contrast to the minion getting roughed up by Ripper.
Angel gets all mysty eyed ....Spoilers!
-- FanMan, 00:06:15 05/02/01 Wed
5
4
3
2
1
In the latest episode there were four different plot lines going
on.
1. Cordy and her acting angst, plus Angel being big brother/protector....funny
scene!...:) 2. Gunn choosing between Angel Investigations and
his old friends. A tragedy for Gunn... 3. Wesley feeling insicure
in his leadership role, partly because of his father, but also
because Angel is better at action being the hero and all. Wesley
is very good if a problem requires intillectual thought, this
ep did not. 4. The Host having his cousin show up! The Host getting
flustered, defensive, winy, and trying to play down his knowladge
of the demon that showed up in his bar. Very funny! He has been
the wise man of the show, it is nice to see he has quirks and
foibles like everyone else.
I liked the scene where the Host describes his own world. To paraphrase;
everything is black and white, heroes just kill the bad guy, there
is no need or desire for social niceties. Angel got mysty eyed!
You could see that he would like that world where moral choices
are much simpler, also Angel is still auckward socially.
Next ep: Cool, everyone goes to Angel's dream world,and the car!....Army
OF Darkness?..naw:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
last few Angel episodes -- spotjon, 08:27:44 05/02/01 Wed
"4. The Host having his cousin show up! The Host getting
flustered, defensive, winy, and trying to play down his knowladge
of the demon that showed up in his bar. Very funny! He has been
the wise man of the show, it is nice to see he has quirks and
foibles like everyone else."
Until the very end of the show, I had assumed that this was just
another throw-away episode, not important to the plot, but offering
insights into a rather obscure character. But now, I wonder what
Cordy and the gang being chucked into black-and-white land will
lead to. Will Angel find peace there and want to stay? Will his
friends be sacrificed to the double-sun god? Will Angel suddenly
realize that his SPF60 is quickly fading? I have no idea how this
ties into the season finale, which I previously assumed had something
to do with Wolfram & Hart (which it probably still does).
Also, did anybody else notice how much Angel was not bursting
into flames in the trailer to next week's episode? Does this mean
that only our sun is capable of cindering vampires? Would travelling
to another planet not be a problem for vamps, as long as they
didn't have the windows open as they were leaving our solar system?
I'm sure that we'll be given some sort of explanation next week,
but it's certainly fuel for dissention until then!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: last few Angel episodes -- FanMan, 18:40:25 05/02/01
Wed
If the force barrier protecting residences, crosses and stakes
are some form of curse from of a God/TPTB, then it could be the
same thing for sunlight. Maby none of these things are REAL weaknesses
for vampires, and it is a curse to help even the odds for puny
humans. If there are no vampires native to the other world, there
would be no need to cast that curse there. Alternately, the natives
of that world could just be more bloodthirsty than humans-UGH!
Then they would not need any help killing vampires.
SPOILERS Concerning the Season Finale -- spotjon,
06:27:59 05/02/01 Wed
From Cinescape Online:
== Joss Whedon is shedding some light on the coming 100th episode
of Buffy the Vampire Slayer...which just happens to also be the
season finale.
While talking to TV Guide, Whedon spoke of the episode to come,
saying, "There will be some resolution to the Dawn arc -
her being the Key and whether she's Buffy's sister - as well as
Buffy's journey about what it means to be the Slayer."
Of course, it will also involve Buffy going head to head with
Glory to stop the end of the world from happening. On this point,
Whedon says, "Saving the world is what we do here at Buffy
Entertainment, so there's going to be some punching and some death,
too."
Whedon also reveals that the episode's ending will likely leave
fans sobbing in their hankies. He adds, "We did a big finale
last year, but not as the final episode, because the story wasn't
really connected to the characters. This time, it's more like
the old days." ==
Read it at Cinescape.
-spotjon
Re: Buffy Series Finale
Speculations (poss. Spoilers) -- Candy, 07:08:27 05/02/01 Wed
I am very pissed off about there no longer being a Buffy The Vampire
Slayer series. I have been a loyal fan since the beginning and
have taped every episode. How stupid can the WB possibly be to
let this series go? Although I have enjoyed each and every episode,
I expect more. I am very beyond disappointed with the WB's decision
to remove this t.v. series. They really suck for doing that, and
I hope you really do break a leg!
Specs
on Season Finale(Buffy)-Longer than I expected... -- Unsung Hero,
08:12:07 05/02/01 Wed
I doubt anyone really cares what I think, but....:-)I decided
to give my speculation on the season finale.
Ok, so what do we know?- We know "Death is your gift",
and we know Dawn has the power to do something REALLY nasty and
Glory wants her for that. We also recieved word that we're supposed
to need our collective hanky for it....so.....
SOMEONES GONNA DIE
At least, that's how I've got it figured. Now...likely canidates?
Dawn's VERY likely. Buffy would have to kill her to prevent all
exsistence from ending(surely that will be the end result of Dawn's
power). However, it's been done. But I wouldn't put it past Whedon
to do it again. It's not like he hasn't repeated stuff before.
Other potential victims? Well, Tara and Anya are fairly expendable.
This in't to say they're not great characters- They are, absoloutley,
but are they truly essential the show? No.
Tara seems awfully likely, too. But, we've heard Whedon talk about
her and how he likes her. But that doesn't give her immunity.
Anya is also very background oriented, but there are places left
to go with Anya's struggle with humanity, since very little serious
air time has been devoted to it, it's mostly been funny. But Anya's
death would do VERY little for the plotlines, and would be shock
value only, and that's not Btvs. Spike could also bite it, but
it's very unlikely in the light of his more recent actions- however,
he hasn't reformed exactly, and still believes in evil- he just
seems to like Buffy more. And the last honest canidate for death
is Buffy herself. Death IS her gift, after all. But, someone pointed
out, she already died for the world. But....she came back, kids.
A true martyr doesn't exactly come back(and before biblical references
are brought out, let's remember Jesus rose from the grave and
then went to Heaven, not went on for four more years), and as
such Buffy was not a martyr. Basically, the way I got it figured,
"death if your gift" has two literal meanings: Death
for yourself, or death for someone else. Either Buffy kills someone
important, or she dies. And I seriously doubt(and hope) that Glory
is not that important person she executes, because that'd be pretty
lame seeing as how they gave us the huge production on "Death
is your gift", and everyone would answer a big ole' "DUH"
to that one. I think Buffy dying would be an interesting twist,
one that I don't think Whedon is above making. Now...does this
mean Gellar would leave? Not neccesarily. Angel died, and he came
back mid-season. Buffy could die and come back a changed woman,
a different character than the one we knew. Or she could just
leave. I dunno. But I think it's not as unlikely as it seems.
For the first time, I have no idea how a villan will die. I've
always had an inkling as to thier tragic flaw- Glory doesn't seem
to have one. No weakness, no power source, and no fears and emotions
to play on. Dawn is the only thing that comes to mind. So my official
prediction is Dawn will focus her world ending powers on Glory
and send her lop-sided ass to wherever Gods go when they die.
And, I think, either she or Buffy will go with her. Of course,
that's my speculation and isn't based on anything whatsoever.
No matter what happens, I don't think the season will end in celebration.
Glory is far too powerful to just be beaten like Adam was-there
will be consequences, and I'm certain the gang won't hang out
at Buffy's and watch "Apocolypse Now" this time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, AtltS -- rowan, 17:09:09 05/02/01 Wed
Since Glory commented that Spike is "totally useless"
--can't be the key, totally impure, can't even be brainsucked
-- is that the clue that Spike doesn't die or a red herring to
throw us off the scent?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could Buffy give Ben the gift of death? -- Vulpes, 17:37:09
05/02/01 Wed
I was just thinking about it. If Glory and Ben share the same
body, and Ben is the weaker of the two, could Buffy just kill
them both by targeting Ben?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Could Ben kill Glory while she's trying to use The
Key? -- rowan, 17:53:32 05/02/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Could Buffy give Ben the gift of death? -- Jen
C., 22:23:09 05/02/01 Wed
I've been thinking that Ben may be a totally innocent bystander.
It may be that he has been victimized for centuries (millenia?)
- hauling this hellgod around while he tries to make right all
of the crud that she does. If it turns out that he is Glory's
only weakness, and he's a total innocent, will Buffy kill him?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Could Buffy give Ben the gift of death?
-- Halcyon, 09:28:43 05/03/01 Thu
Ben is hardly a total innocent, he did summon the Queller to kill
all the crazy people that Glory had created. An action that nearly
got Buffy, Dawn and Joyce killed as well as making Spike scream
like S3 Wesley.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
i thought Dawn would -- riffington, 22:15:04 05/02/01 Wed
sacrifice herself to save the world - Buffy could never kill her
own sister.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Specs on Season Finale(Buffy)-Longer than I expected...
-- change, 03:48:29 05/03/01 Thu
> For the first time, I have no idea how a villan will die.
I've always > had an inkling as to thier tragic flaw- Glory
doesn't seem to have one. > No weakness, no power source, and
no fears and emotions to play on.
Actually, Glory has at least two weaknesses that we know of. First,
she has to feed. If she doesn't, she goes insane. Secondly, she
has to share her body with Ben, and the two of them are enemies.
There are a couple of ways these weaknesses could be exploited.
Usually, Joss seeds these things into earlier episodes. For example,
the Superstar episode demonstrated how a reality changing spell
could work and so laid the ground work for Dawn's appearance.
The two episodes that come to mind are The Replacement and Blood
Ties. In The Replacement, Xander was split into two different
beings. The two beings were suppose to represent opposite qualities.
The SG could use this spell to split Glory and Ben apart from
each other, as well as the third hell god if there is one. This
would allow Ben to work directly against Glory. It might also
weaken Glory. She may be sharing a body with Ben because she needs
to.
In Blood Ties, Willow teleports Glory about a mile up into the
air. If Willow finds a way to control that spell, then she could
teleport Glory a mile underground. That probably wouldn't kill
her, but it would take her a long time to dig herself out, and
she wouldn't be able to feed. She could go completely insane before
she makes it out.
Just some thoughts on how Glory might be defeated. My point is
that Joss likes to lay in the ground work for these things ahead
of time. So, one of the previous episodes probably has the solution.
Parallels between Spike and Willow
-- Simplicity, 09:26:59 05/02/01 Wed
Just some brain food for thought. . .
Did anyone else catch some Spike/Willow parallels. First, Tara/Drusilla
both suffering from insanity. Spike/Willow both willing to stick
by their loves despite the mental illness. Willow/Spike both resorting
to evilness/dark powers to restore/get revenge for their hurt
loved one. Spike was willing to kill Angel to save Drusilla. Willow
was willing to use "Darkest Magic" to do so.
What happened with Giles and the minion... -- Leah,
10:38:00 05/02/01 Wed
Am I the only one who thought Giles didn't do anything? It seemed
to me like the minion was just a wimp and very unloyal. I saw
the scene as a point of contrast b/w Glory's unloyal minions and
the Scoobies who would die for Buffy and Dawn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What happened with Giles and the minion... -- Simplicity,
11:31:44 05/02/01 Wed
I taped it. When I ran it back you hear a sickening "crunch"
off camera when you're focused on Anya and Willow. Ripper definetly
did something to the minion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What happened with Giles and the minion... -- Rufus,
14:28:15 05/02/01 Wed
When Giles is in Ripper mode he has a habit he does every time
he punches someone out.....he wipes his hands in his handkerchief
post pummeling. He made a point of distracting the girls with
the twine request...and Giles and the minion came to a hasty understanding
that the twine was the least of the minions problems. Giles seems
to have a compulsion to wipe the violence off his hands everytime
he is forced to use his natural talent. What else is he wiping
away? He also gets a different tone to his voice making one wonder
how many personal interviews his has given in the past. He's very
efficient in getting the cooperation of the subject he is questioning.
When Giles is in Ripper mode there is a definate feeling of menace
and violence that can't be attributed to gift wrapping a minion.
Plus, is twine strong enough to hold more than a normal package?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What happened with Giles and the minion... --
Rufus, 02:25:24 05/03/01 Thu
The order in which Giles did things was first to open the door
and hit the minions head with it. Drags the minion into the room.
Pulls out handkerchief wiping hands as he requests the minion
tell why he was spying. Asks the girls to get some twine. As their
backs are turned a loud crunch can be heard, and the minion yelps
a bit. Then full cooperation. The crunch wasn't Giles cracking
his knuckles, I think he may have leaned on the minion with his
foot. If he had used his hands I figure more hand wiping would
start up. Nice that he didn't want to corrupt yound minds by showing
his violent side in action. In Halloween just before he beat the
hell out of Ethan he had Willow leave. In this ep he had them
distracted long enough to get the job done.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: What happened with Giles and the minion... -- Solitude1056,
18:22:11 05/06/01 Sun
The verdict is in, but I think they toned it down from the original
to something a bit more subtle. The shooting script outlines that:
Giles holds the Minion's gaze. Without looking away.
GILES Quickly you two, on the counter... get the twine. Let's
tie him up.
We follow Anya and Willow as they grab the lengths of twine off
the counter.
They are startled by A LOUD CRUNCH AND AN ANGUISHED GASP OF PAIN.
Anya and Willow turn to see:
SLOOK Pale and sweaty. Trembling at Giles' feet.
SLOOK (O.S.) (desperate) Don't... I'll tell you anything. Please.
Whatever you want to know. Just... I'll... anything...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: What happened with Giles and the minion... --
Rufus, 20:35:30 05/06/01 Sun
I know intimidation and the beginings of torture when I see and
hear it....:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: What happened with Giles and the minion...
-- purplegrrl, 13:29:15 05/08/01 Tue
Did Giles get intimidation and torture lessons from Angelus (remembering
what Angelus did to him during the whole Acathla-sucking-the-world-into-Hell
thing) or was this something he picked up in his mad, bad "Ripper"
days??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: What happened with Giles and the minion...
-- Rufus, 15:01:41 05/08/01 Tue
I think it was training from his time with the CoW and natural
talent. Which makes one wonder what type of training Watchers
get.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: What happened with Giles and
the minion... -- Solitude1056, 19:22:49 05/08/01 Tue
I doubt it had much to do with the CoW's training - look at the
abilities Wesley had when he arrived... uh, that would be none!
*grin*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What happened with Giles
and the minion... -- Rufus, 21:45:03 05/08/01 Tue
How about an innate gift for persuasion....:):):):) I'm talking
Giles here....Wesley is a work in process.
A Seriously Brassed Off...Willow?
Spoilers for Tough Love -- Brian, 12:27:05 05/02/01 Wed
Since I joined the Buffyverse in Season two, I have heard many
people tell Willow to "go slow," "be careful,"
"the powers you evoke are dangerous," &
"I don't think you can handle it." Well, last night,
Willow demonstrated that she really is a powerful witch, and she
can handle it. She may not have defeated Glory, but she caused
her some serious pain.
It was nice to see Willow put her doubts behind her, and take
action, no matter how rash. She needed vengence in the worst way.
I imagine that she had a lot of guilt, that because of her fight
with Tara, she wasn't there to protect her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: A Seriously Brassed Off...Willow? Spoilers for Tough
Love -- Joann, 18:52:52 05/02/01 Wed
I love that Willow finally used the power of her magic. When she
came sweeping into the room with those death eyes I got chills
all over it was so creepy. No wonder she is best friends with
the Slayer; she is as dark. I liked this episode the best of the
season because everyone was in angst and suffering and in peril
and may die, just like it use to be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A Seriously Brassed Off...Willow? Spoilers for
Tough Love -- FanMan, 19:08:14 05/02/01 Wed
Willow has done some very powerefull spells before. This EP was
the first time I recall her useing explicitly harmfull magic.
Normally she helps Buffy with usefull magic. Some of her other
spells had bad effects RE something Blue, but the spells were
morally neutral. This EP she was using spells from a book callled
Darkest Magic!
I like POWER WILLOW, but I wouldn't want to cross her!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A Seriously Brassed Off...Willow? Spoilers
for Tough Love -- Wiccagrrl, 20:19:53 05/02/01 Wed
The scene with Willow taking on Glory very much reminded me of
Giles going after Angelus in Passion. And I loved the "I.Owe.You.PAIN!"
line. I thought this ep was really great. I loved them reinforcing
the W/T relationship. I thought Tara was truly heroic- her resolved
face, knowing what Glory was going to do to her, broke my heart
and really impressed me at the same time (not that I thought she'd
give Dawn up, but wow)
Gods, I hope they find a way to help Tara fast.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: A Seriously Brassed Off...Willow?
Spoilers for Tough Love -- Sebastian, 20:25:18 05/02/01 Wed
I'm also glad that they have *finally* fully addressed how powerful
Willow has become.
They have, of course, hinted at it the past few seasons - but
this episode finally showed just how adept at magic Willow really
is.
I also really enjoyed the nature of Willow and Tara's argument.
I've had lesbian friends in college deal with the same issues
- and it was very well done and realistic.
A sidebar: The concern Anya showed to Willow was sweet - and her
comment "I realizd that sounded alot more 'lesbian' than
I meant" made me laugh aloud.
Sorry for the ramble..... ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: A Seriously Brassed Off...Willow?
Spoilers for Tough Love -- John Burwood, 12:36:26 05/03/01 Thu
Just a thought - if Willow gets sufficiently vengeful, she has
the option of giving d'Hoffryn a chant & acquiring the additional
powers of a vengeance demon - as Anya reminded her in Triangle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Willow the vampire slayer? -- Traveler,
22:00:47 05/02/01 Wed
You know, after this episode I started wondering: how much longer
will Sunnydale need Buffy? With Willow seriously discomfiting
a god, how could measly vampires stand a chance against her?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Willow the vampire slayer? --
Xayide, 13:03:13 05/03/01 Thu
Replace "Bag o' Knives" with "Bag o' Stakes"
and vampires are absolutely no longer a threat. She could even
do some telekinetic decapitation if she wants.
Still, she's said before that her powers are linked to her emotional
state, so perhaps she won't normally be able to access that level
of power.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Willow the vampire slayer?
-- FanMan, 17:52:57 05/03/01 Thu
Buffy also fights better when she is pissed. Two things though,
Willow was using darkest magic wich probably has some bad side
effects, also spells require prep work. If Willow is suprised
she will not have time to cast a spell.
Two more things (g) Buffy has faster reflexes and healing powers.
Buffy is equal to Willow after Willow has spell ingrediants and
preped spells, but Buffy is always ready for The Dance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Willow the vampire
slayer? -- Xayide, 11:24:20 05/04/01 Fri
True, but keep in mind that Willow's telekinetic powers appear
to function without spells and ingrediants. Even if they were
amped by her rage, she should still be able to toss a stake around
fairly easily (and as we've seen, even pencils work just fine).
Speaking of her telekinesis, have they ever shown her use it on
living beings, or just objects? It occured to me that if she simply
lifted Glory off the ground, her strength would be almost useless
and her speed completely so.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: A Seriously Brassed Off...Willow? Spoilers for Tough
Love -- Humanitas, 09:49:17 05/03/01 Thu
First of all, I was very happy to see Willow finally become an
Official Bad-Ass Spell Slinger. They've been hinting at it for
two seasons now, so it has been on my mind, especially since she's
seemed so inept ths season (esp. in "Triangle").
I gotta say, I'm a bit worried, though. Magic seems to rely heavily
on the emotional state of the user. Willow's strength in htis
ep definitely came from grief and anger, which are always dangerous
to give in to. Again, not that I think she was wrong, but I bet
there will be unforseen consequences from her use of "Darkest
Magick."
death as a gift
-- gds, 16:54:15 05/02/01 Wed
Am I the only one who believes the whole point of saying "death
is your gift" was for Buffy to deny that death is a gift.
This denial is the proof that Buffy needed that she is not turning
into stone, not losing her humanity. To emphasize that point,
the Guide left saying "you're question has been answered"
as soon as Buffy made the denial.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: death as a gift:reverse psychology -- FanMan, 18:58:52
05/02/01 Wed
Could be. I like youre reasoning. Restless was the same; the scenes
were in the form of a dream, and therefore metaphorical and vauge.
SNEAKY GUIDE!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: death as a gift:reverse psychology -- rowan, 21:01:00
05/03/01 Thu
It could also be interpreted: "I'm not going to stand here
arguing with you because I answered your question."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: death is a Gift -- Darren K, 09:06:19 05/04/01 Fri
Oracular metaphors. Dream sequences with nuggets of truth. Why
should a Buffy fan insist on one interpretation?
Death is a gift because it's a release from responsibility, a
release from tragedy.
No one in Buffy's world faces more responsibility and tragedy
then a Slayer.She faces a neverending battle. Why shouldn't she
want release? This is the same message from "Fool for Love"
when Spike contends that all Slayers have a deathwish.It's not
a wish to be defeated, it's a wish to be released, to not have
to be the hero.
But there is another interpretation in the Guide's words. Buffy
shouldn't expect any end--other than death--to her responsibility,
or to her life's tragedies. Responsibility in all worlds is cradle
to grave and if Buffy--or any of us--find the time and the room
in our lives for love and joy, It's because we make it, accept
it and welcome it.
Basically, she's telling Buffy to buck up and take it on the chin,
just like Slayers before her.
dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: death is a Gift -- Nina, 16:17:20 05/04/01 Fri
I am probably way off here, but I remember JW saying somewhere
(sorry don't remember where and when - so probably not a good
theory) that Buffy would finally find her soul mate at the end
of season 5. Could "death" be Spike? I know it's too
simple and probably stupid, but there could be a lot of meanings
for those words. All of them could be true at the same time. (like
the titles of episodes which have many meanings!)
Okay I'm off... should have kept my word and keep reading!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: death is a Gift -- darren K, 19:59:16 05/04/01
Fri
I think that's a perfectly valid theory.Why shouldn't Spike be
death?
dK
Angel (the series) seems a
little alien to me... -- AngelVSAngelus, 16:57:27 05/02/01 Wed
Epiphany was a great episode. Angel had learned many things during
his tenure of "darker dark hero", and he returned to
the fold. It still had that great Angel tone that hooked me in
the first place, dark and moody, with that tinge of humor and
humanity that the gang (and sometimes Angel) provide. I remember
after watching it I felt excited to see where it would all go.
I've liked where it has gone, to an extent. Angel's new attitude
is both refreshing and amusing. He SMILES, he's sarcastic, he
wears a little bit of color. But the show's tone, and entire world,
seems to have changed. Lighter, I was expecting, but it seems
to have gotten REALLY lighter than it was. No longer does Angel
walk through smoked screened alleyways under the blanket of the
night. The stories from the past two episodes (and to a lesser
extent, yesterday's) have been stand alones, not arc stories.
We saw only a little of Wolfram and Hart, not looking in on their
scheming against Angel but at their promoting Lilah. I'm not even
sure WHAT it is that's bothering me about the show now, its just
that its so DIFFERENT. I like complicated characters and the gray
that Joss keeps between the black and white forces of the B/A
universe, but I like for that black and white to EXIST. Demons
used to be evil. Yesterday we had a demon, related to the Host,
that was a hunter on neither side of the moral spectrum. Maybe
I got a little too used to Angel being so dark, and the stories
revolving more around the villains with history with the lead
character. I dunno,someone make sense of this for me?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Angel (the series) seems a little alien to me... --
Javoher, 18:13:08 05/03/01 Thu
The darkness of Angel was what originally attracted me to this
series.
Angel swings from light to dark and back. He's really trying to
lighten up these days, be with human friends even if he does feel
old (I got the Lorne Greene thing too, but wasn't thinking Bonanza).
After firing them and taking on Darla and W&H by himself, going
over the edge and having that epiphany, he's realized he needs
a community to keep him from falling off a cliff. There was a
thread a little while ago about Spike needing a community that
accepts him - it's exactly the same for Angel and all he really
has are Cordy, Wesley, and Gunn, and now the Host. Interesting
how the Host offered a hand of friendship so casually and sincerely.
This guy isn't bad at all, and he's not a bad musician either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Angel (the series) seems a little alien to me...
-- verdantheart, 06:19:47 05/04/01 Fri
I like the host too, and I'm glad they finally gave him a name.
He provides a nice counterpoint to the brooding side of the show,
especially since he seems to have a connection with TPTB yet is,
if anything, freed by it rather than suffering because of it.
(Were they thinking "lounge lizard" when they came up
with the green scaly makeup?)
It's interesting to see some of his backstory filled in.
- vh
What's up with everyone's hair?
(Tough Love spoilers and a frivolous post) -- rowan, 17:26:02
05/02/01 Wed
Did anyone notice that practically everybody had a new 'do for
Tough Love? Buffy was back to the totally straight, ironed look
(which I personally like alot); Xander finally got his hair cut
(although I think it would look better even a little shorter),
and Spike's hair looks just a touch longer &
wavy (not quite Intervention's bed head, but definitely different).
The cast must have gotten some serious time off between episode
shoots.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: What's up with everyone's hair? (Tough Love spoilers
and a frivolous post) -- Lynn, 19:21:28 05/02/01 Wed
I like a little frivolity is good once in a while, especially
since I think we're going to be in for a lot of strife the next
few weeks!
I liked everyone's hair this week too. I think it made them look
younger, for some reason, especially Spike, he looked almost boyish,
despite the bruises. Spike's hair has been the subject of much
posting, I've seen it on other sites. Most didn't liked the slicked
down look, and I'm wondering if the change has something to do
with the change in his character (see, I'm trying to make this
a serious discussion) :)
Lynn
Misc Glory/Ben -- FanMan,
20:05:02 05/02/01 Wed
Glory is a Hellgod-in exhile- so what? Besides eating and harassing
the SG what villenace actions has she taken. She is not a villian
that I can empathise with. She is stupid as Spike said, her minions
are pitifull; who you associate with says something about you.
Glory does not have any intelligent servants-inferiority complex?
or is it that she is so stupid that no smart villian will ally
with her? I hope there is a different villian that is the real
big bad for season 5. Glory is powerfull, power is not scary by
itself, you need some menacing and random violence. I guess she
is scary in the same way that the Cuthplu Gods are; she is so
powerfull that humans are literally like bugs in her view- Ouch!
My SELF-ESTEEM!
Glory:invulnrable, immortal, very fast,very strong, spellcaster.
Glory:insane, arrogent, overconfident Until we get new info the
only weakness I can see in Glory is her overconfidence. Overconfidence
is a weakness because it fools you into thinking someone is less
dangerous than they are. An eight year old kid might look harmless;
untill he points a gun at you! Incidentally I remember reading
something very funny and not relevant. A burgurlar was killed
by a chiwawa after it bit his finger off! He could have bandaged
his hand: but the owner came home, so he hid in a clauset and
bled to death....LOL
Ben is not any better. He is boring as a regular cast member.
If his sister is a God/Godess? why does he act so wimpy? RE pacifism:
you can be a pacifist for moral reasons or from a simple aversion
to violence. Regardless, you can be strong and a pacifist at the
same time. When Ben tried to make a date with Buffy he might have
been looking for a reason to talk to her in private about his
relationship with Glory. If he has any romantic interest in Buffy,
then he is an ass! Two scenerios: Buffy&Ben
geting intimate and suddenly Glory is there!...eeewww! Buffy trusting
Ben as a friend and leaving Dawn with Ben. Ben has two reasons
to tell Buffy that he is related to Glory: so that Buffy would
keep Dawn away from him, also he could give Buffy some inside
info on Glory.
Ben:cast one spell, unkown power, actually cares about humans
to a degree. Ben:Pacifist,reactive instead of taking initiative,
wimpy. My thought is that Ben is the Achillies Heel for Glory
in some way.
What is the deal? Glory said that Ben was getting stronger, next
EP Ben is totally shocked to find out that Glory had been controlling
thier body for two weeks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
more Glory&Ben -- Riffington, 21:49:30 05/02/01 Wed
I never really thought Ben and Glory had a true Jekyll & Hyde
existence until Ben got fired for his absence. I was still holding
on to the suggestion that they were atleast 2 seperate bodies
linked in a shared existence. I'm trying to refer to a scene in
the epsiode "Family" where Ben is changing in a locker
room, & then a few rows away, the demon stalking him is nabbed
from behind by Glory. I suppose that can be attributed to her
goddess-ly super speed & strength.
I suppose the way to destroy Glory is to kill Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: more Glory&Ben -- FanMan, 17:56:06 05/03/01 Thu
I remember that scene. If there are two bodies and Glory can act
independantly of Ben, then where was Ben for two weeks? Was he
concious?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: more Glory&Ben -- Solitude1056, 21:28:10
05/03/01 Thu
If Glory's been trapped in Ben's subconcious all this time, perhaps
what she said to Tara is Glory's experience of what it's like
to be without an Identity - IOW, an awareness of a Self as a separate
person from other people. Hm, maybe that's the reason Glory brainsucks,
because if she doesn't, she isn't - separate, that is. Ben doesn't
need to brainsuck because he contains the identity, where Glory
doesn't. That would explain why he held his head & repeated, "I'm
Ben, I'm Ben" as if to reaffirm that his identity is the
primary for the body.
In my interpretation of things - and given that we've seen them
morph into each other - then Ben was "gone" for two
weeks, effectively as if he'd been temporarily unconcious. I suppose
this is the point where we look to see if Joss was checking out
books on MPD three years ago, when that evil brain o' his was
coming up with this season's arc!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Misc Glory/Ben -- Solitude1056, 20:22:02 05/03/01 Thu
In the writer's comments I posted above, one of the writers explains
that Ben is mortal & always has been. Something just doesn't seem
right, there, to me. I mean, usually even the Buffyverse doesn't
work so randomly. The PTBs just picked "some guy" out
of the crowd who's going to be saddled with this insano-god chick
for his whole life? On top of that, Ben has referred to Glory
as his "sister," and implied that he's been the Janitor
for his "whole life." Maybe we're being led by the nose
into another Fight Club rehash, but wouldn't he then consider
Glory his "bad half," and not his "sister"?
The word choice implies that Glory is somehow an Other, and not
just a part of him - excepting his comment to Dreg of "let
the best Me win."
I'd posit actually that perhaps Ben bowed out of the Hell-God
position, or more likely fled, and became human. Perhaps Glory
wasn't able to stop him, or unwittingly aided him, and thus their
PTB killed two birds with one stone. Glory gets punished by being
trapped in a mortal body with Ben, and Ben gets punished by having
to deal with her for the rest of his life! That makes more sense
to me, since the idea that Ben was picked out of a random lineup
to be saddled with Glory just doesn't add up, based on his comments
to Dawn & Dreg. Glory sure doesn't seem like the kind of chick
to have done anything good enough (in a Hell's upside-down reasoning)
to have warranted such punishment. And I can't think of any other
way we'd end up with both being punished at the same time. Forcing
them together for a mortal lifetime doesn't make sense as a punishment
for two personalities whose priorities are radically opposite,
because I can't figure how they could both have committed the
"same" crime, being so radically different.
Just my two dinar, after such a long post on related topics!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Misc Glory/Ben -- FanMan, 22:35:38 05/03/01 Thu
I started a thread called Musing about Angel. A reply mentioned
a serial killer who had his memories and personality erased, then
a new personality was put in his body.
Check that, it is similar to your post.
Another stupid question??? --
Emcee003, 09:43:11 05/03/01 Thu
Can Dawn ever be made mortal??? If so that could be the death
in the 100th eps. of which we are all trying to figure out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Another stupid question??? -- darren K, 12:28:03 05/03/01
Thu
Dawn is mortal. Her body is mortal. She can be killed and her
DNA (according to the Doc) is Joyce's. Basically, the monks made
Buffy's true sister and used it as a host for the KEY. I don't
think Dawn is the KEY. I think Dawn is a mortal housing for the
KEY.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Another stupid question??? -- Humanitas, 13:08:02
05/03/01 Thu
Um, not to nitpick (Who am I kidding? I'm picking nits furiously
in a vain attempt to not go crazy waiting for next week's ep),
but Doc doesn't actually know that Dawn has Joyce's DNA. He looks
at Dawn's DNA, assumes it comes from Joyce (because Spike idetifies
Joyce as "this one's mum"), and says:
DOC: Well, your mother's a good candidate, at least. Strong DNA.
Now, we know that Joyce *does* have strong DNA, as it can withstand
the pressures of being The Slayer, in Buffy's case, but that does
not mean that Joyce's strong DNA is what Doc is looking at in
the sample he takes from Dawn.
'K, getting overly pedantic. Gonna stop now!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Dawn is not storage? plus side note -- imcj, 20:07:38
05/03/01 Thu
May take on it.
It's definitely not stored in Dawn. The key is Dawn and Dawn is
the key.
Three monks from the Order of Dagon, used their ability to bend
reality and transformed. A bright green energy matrix, that vibrates
at a dimensional frequency into human form.
At first I thought she was just an Illusion. This energy matrix
just made to look-smell-taste-feel, etc., like a real human. Because
a) when Buffy performed the A Tirer la Courture Dawns figure seemed
to fade in and out. Like she wasn't there. b) when crazy ppl saw
her they saw a green light or nothing at all, a "blank."
However, that has been proven wrong.
Dawn has emotions, she is real. She is yes artificial in the way
she became human. But Dawn is real, she is mortal.
side note: It's so interesting how the Order of Dagon have such
power. To manifest energy into human flesh. To alter reality and
change many PPLs perceptions. That's just coo.
-CJ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Side note-why were they protecting it in
the first place? -- Anthony8, 19:34:12 05/04/01 Fri
I don't know if this has been addressed in any of the threads,
but has anyone yet discussed why the monks were protecting the
key in the first place. The Knights of "Hack and Slash"
seemed to think all their problems would be solved once they destroyed
The Key. The monks main purpose (later transferred to Buffy) appeared
to be to protect it. Has anybody discussed whether The Key has
a bigger significance than enabling Glory to return to her dimension
and destroying ours in the process? Granted, that's still about
as significant as it comes, so my guess is that The Key came into
existence as a by-product of Glory entering our dimension. Glory
did tell Dawn in "Blood Ties" that The key wasn't as
old as she was.
If the solution is as simple as destroying the Key, presumably
the monks would have done that. Of course, maybe it's not possible
to destroy it at all. In that case, hiding it until the time has
passed for Glory to use it would make sense.
Okay, now I appear to be answering my own question. Have I? Okay
then, what would happen to The Key if Dawn were to die before
Glory got ahold of her? If The Key goes unused and Glory is properly
dispatched, what happens to it then? Alright, that's it. Sorry
about the rambling.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Another stupid question??? -- rowan, 20:42:39
05/03/01 Thu
That would make some sense out of Glory's tasting of blood to
determine who is The Key, and the spoilers that indicate Dawn's
blood must be spilt by Glory to activate The Key. The pure energy
that Tara saw is housed within the human body.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> but why then? -- Solitude1056, 20:50:32 05/03/01
Thu
The other brainsucked folks noticed Dawn as a "blank"
right away - but (I think) Tara's the first to call her a bright
light and/or the color green. Why then, and why hadn't Tara remarked
(as the other victims had) on Dawn's non-being as soon as Tara
saw Dawn? That just seemed odd/inconsistent to me, and Joss isn't
usually inconsistent without a good reason.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Yes, vg point! (spoilers ahead) -- rowan,
20:55:19 05/03/01 Thu
I thought in the last ep that Tara seemed alot more with it than
most of the brainsuckees. She was better able to interact with
others (although not to actually converse). Do you think this
is just because she's a newbie, or could that "Tara Resolve
Face" have been a way that she was able to slightly protect
herself? Spoilers lead us to believe that she will be the one
who knows how to destroy Glory.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, vg point! (spoilers ahead)
-- Solitude1056, 21:02:59 05/03/01 Thu
Spoilers lead us to believe that she will be the one who knows
how to destroy Glory.
They have? Uh, I'm still back with the "when is Melissa Gilbert
going to show up" disinformation thread. Call me slow on
the uptake, I guess. *grin*
But you're right, Tara was more with it - and Willow commented
that at points she could tell Tara was "in there." At
the time I took this as wishful thinking but I'm right in guessing
that the identity is what's gone, and the soul's what loves, then
it makes sense that Tara may still express affection, if only
non-verbally.
Two things: I was wondering about the whole "tara as a vessel"
line of thought that's been going down since Restless. If Tara's
identity is returned to her, and it has to be stolen back from
Glory, how much of Glory will come along for the ride? Is there
anything of Glory once those stolen identity-energies are gone?
And second: maybe it's heightened emotion that makes the Key shine
so bright. Dawn was calm until Glory pulled away half the wall
and discovered them - and anyone's emotional barometer would go
bonkers at such an interruption. Maybe as Dawn has become more
human, her Key-part has been better & better cloaked, but fear's
a pretty primal thing, and no better way (other than anger) to
take you to your most basic state.
Dunno... comments, questions? :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, vg point! (spoilers
ahead) -- rowan, 21:11:48 05/03/01 Thu
"Spoilers lead us to believe that she will be the one who
knows how to destroy Glory.
They have? Uh, I'm still back with the "when is Melissa Gilbert
going to show up" disinformation thread. Call me slow on
the uptake, I guess. *grin*"
Well, so true, but I never did believe the whole Melissa Gilbert
thing -- sounded way too strange to me. The Tara stuff sounds
alot closer, because we've seen that other brainsuckees have insight
that others don't have (they recognized The Key, etc.). Plus,
someone soon has to give the SG some kind of clue. Have we ever
gone this far into an arc where they are so clueless?
I wondered if Dawn was vibrating (sounds kind of risque) at a
higher frequency when Glory arrived (I'd be peeing my pants, so
I can sympathize). It is strange that Tara didn't notice Dawn's
keyness until Glory arrived. Does The Key get brighter when The
Keymaster is around (oops, sounds a little GhostBusterish suddenly).
I got the impression from Glory's impassioned ramblings to Tara
before she brainsucked her that she had experienced the brainsuck
hell herself -- she described it so realistically. Maybe everyone's
wits are hanging out together in hell waiting for release.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, vg point! (spoilers
ahead) -- Rufus, 22:12:46 05/03/01 Thu
Willow kinda answered the question for me when she mentioned the
drugs the hospital gave her to keep Tara calm. Drugs can only
do so much. Tara could have been close enough to another dose
that the stress of Glory arriving and the amount of fear that
would generate makes sense that she could have fought off the
effects of the drug and seen Dawn for what she is for the first
time. Remember Tara understands that Glory is the one that hurt
her, and she would be outside of reality so she could have an
unintentional outburst such as the one she had when she identified
Dawn as the key. Everyone was pretty freaked...not often that
the front of a building gets torn open by a normal looking girl.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Another stupid question??? -- Emcee003, 12:40:22 05/03/01
Thu
I Am in the UK so the last eps I saw was Dawns attempt to return
her mother thanxs 2 Willow. So how many Eps eps behind am I with
the all u????? but the next is on in 23 1/2 hr.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Another stupid question??? -- Wiccagrrl, 20:31:18
05/03/01 Thu
Not too far behind. The ep you mentioned, Forever, is ep 17, so
I'm assuming you'll be getting ep 18 tomorrow. We got ep 19 on
Tuesday, and will get ep 20 this coming Tuesday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Another stupid question??? -- Emcee003,
00:51:57 05/04/01 Fri
THanks (I thought i was only a few)
Vengeance & Consequences (oops,
long) -- Solitude1056, 18:50:16 05/03/01 Thu
This got kind of lost in another thread but I decided to repost
because it leads into something else I've been thinking about
today. First, Tara's expression: just as Glory made it clear Tara
was going to get brain sucked, we saw Tara's Resolve Face. I'm
still curious as to whether anyone else has theories of what she
was thinking. As I stated before, she's not without resources.
Perhaps whatever she formulated (or decided upon) is why Glory
felt so buzzed afterwards. Or maybe it was just pure determination
that Glory wouldn't get the information, at any cost, and the
satisfaction of knowing that at least Buffy and Willow would kick
Glory's lopsided ass back to Kingdom Come.
There's also been a lot of speculation that we're finally getting
to see Willow being as powerful as some have suspected she is.
Well, she may be that powerful, but right now she's got reason
to be: she's royally pissed off! In a realverse situation, if
a drunk driver had hit Tara as she stood on a street corner, Willow
might've gone through solid steel and a wall of fire to make the
guy suffer. Barring that option, her pain is the kind that leads
people to begin things like MADD and support groups for families
of murder victims. It's the same as Buffy needing something physical
to blame for her mother's illness. It's just that Willow had less
at her disposal (such as physical strength) but was willing to
use what she had and put all of her soul's muscle into following
it through. And she could do that - for once - and be completely
focused because, in some ways, she had nothing left to lose. Nothing.
Tara, mentally, is gone and in the Buffyverse, there's no guarantee
for Willow that Tara will ever get better.
Glory messed with the wrong Scooby - not Tara, Willow - when she
messed with that Scooby's beloved. Unlike the other Scoobies,
Willow's the one who had someone she loved leave her because of
a third person's involvement. Oz up &
left Willow, without any input from her. She found him asleep
and nekkid with someone else - and that kind of betrayal is hard
to forget or just put aside, especially when it results in the
other person deciding they can't be with you. Oz didn't stick
around to give Willow the chance to work through the anger coming
from that discovery, nor did Willow have the opportunity (or guts)
to unleash her anger on the Other Woman, though she tried. In
some ways, she was still learning her Art, and in some ways, she'd
not truly lost Oz - yet - so she still had something to lose.
There's the feeling of wanting to kill the Other Person, and yet
the holding-back because there's just the little bit of suspicion
that this other person is someone Oz liked more than her.
Then along comes Glory and damages Tara. Well, perhaps somewhere
in her mind, Willow saw herself as "taking it" the first
time, without her say-so and no part in the resulting end-of-the-relationship.
This time, she's gonna do it differently. She's been through the
heartbreaking loss when someone else takes away the one she loves.
She stood by and watched her beloved go, and this time she will,
too, but not without a serious fight. She's older, she's stronger,
she's smarter, and now she knows herself well enough to know -
despite Buffy's naively thinking otherwise - that she's not willing
to look back and say, "I should've done something."
That's why Willow fought back, and that's why she was twenty times
stronger than she's been before. I don't know if she'd be able
to muster that level of focus again, just for anything. On top
of that, this isn't an emotional power that goes everywhere: it's
very focused. Willow didn't waste time on the minions. She wasn't
interested in them; she was only interested in the object of her
anger. Nor can I see her wasting 40 vampires (if Tara had been
killed by a vamp), unless it's necessary to get to the single
one that hurt Tara. At that point, her mission - so to speak -
is complete and she's drained of her vengeance.
Now, for the second half: we saw no consequences, unlike Willow's
previous spells. For starters, I'd suggest that's because her
vengeance was not going against the grain of the Buffyverse. She
may have unwittingly been acting with the PTB behind her and thus
her ability to not only slow Glory down but also to recover so
quickly. Where her other spells have verged on cross-grain magic,
this one may've been so properly with the grain that she would
be even more powerful as a result. Swimming with the current is
gonna get you there a lot faster, and perhaps this time the PTB's
current was behind her all the way.
Curiously (and tangentially), I've noticed Anya speaking with
less stilted pronounciation, and her phrasing has been relaxing
into a more human manner since Joyce's death. She blurted out
an offering to sleep with Willow, but the cadence was natural.
It's subtle & though it's been years since I've done shakespearean
acting, cadences are something I pay attention to. (Don't know
if anyone else noticed it, as no one's mentioned it.) Anyway,
that indicates to me that Anya's slowly becoming more human on
the inside, and thus I wonder if she may also become more able
to use magic, as a result. Perhaps that's part of what one needs
to really kick-ass in magic, is something like Willow's in-touch-ness
with her Will (and to some extent, her anger, which is sometimes
the same thing). The farther Anya sat from her emotions, the harder
it may have been to work magic. She was angry about losing her
status as Vengeance Demon, hence her ability to muster the anger
to try & regain that in Doppelgangerland. But since then she's
adamantly insisted she's powerless, as she struggles with her
humanity. Perhaps as she moves closer to her emotions, the more
she may be able to assist Willow. Hopefully my intuition is right
that this is a sign that Anya will be able to support Willow,
magickally, in the upcoming head-ons with Glory.
And last issue/idea: what if we think of sanity, like the soul,
as a complete unit? A soul is required for Glory to suck the person
dry, but in her case, she's leaving the soul behind - and taking
the personlity; that is to say, the person's identity. The soul
is what makes the difference between whether she can take it or
not - Spike has plenty of personality but no soul. It's where
your memories, thoughts, reactions, preferences, tastes, likes,
dislikes, reside. We know identity is not the same as the soul,
since vampires continue to have an distinct personality similar
to pre-vampism despite the demon taking over. We've called it
sanity, since in its absence the person is insane, but what if
they're not insane so much as a soul without any roots or foundation
of Identity? How apropos, since this season's theme is identity.
And that would explain the non sequitorial uncertainty, and random
verbal repetition, on the part of the brainsucked: they grasp
at statements and random thoughts and hold onto them, as the soul
attempts to shape some sort of identity in the vacuum left behind.
So... how would one restore the Identity to Tara, and what would
happen to Glory? Is Identity something that you can craft out
of thin air - thus restoring Tara without dealing with Glory's
refusal to give it up - or is it like the soul: a complete unit,
that can be bartered, taken, restored, but not recreated from
whole cloth? I'm suddenly thinking of Joss' being influenced by
Sumerian mythologies, but unfortunately I'd have to go into the
Egyptian understanding of the soul to find a precedent for this
perspective. The Sumerian (and later Babylonian) philosophies
tend to speak more of "what the gods do" and less of
"who a person is." The Egyptians had a complex understanding
(rivaled only by modern Voudoun) of the different areas that together
define a person's spirituality: the Ba, the Ka, the Akh, the Shadow,
the Name, and several others I can't remember now. Each was distinct,
and it was necessary in the funeral rituals to observe each spiritual
part of the person. If we view Glory's interaction with Tara,
compared to the other brain-sucked victims, then to me it appears
that we're dealing with the same type of perspective on What A
Person Is. It's a compilation of a series of interdependent aspects
that together make up the person: a soul, an identity, a body,
and what else?
I'll stop there, but hopefully that's enough to get you guys on
the track of how I'm seeing the recent actions...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (oops, long) -- rowan, 20:27:29
05/03/01 Thu
I don't have much of any insight to add, except thanks for helping
me think about Willow in a different way. I was fairly "anti"
the revenge magick, primarily because it seemed against the Wiccan
Rede, but I hadn't stopped to think that maybe it was acceptable
in the Buffyverse. Food for thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (oops, long) -- Rufus, 22:31:10
05/03/01 Thu
I remember Glory describe to Tara what happens when one is brain
sucked...
Glory: "It doesn't kill you. What it does...is make you feel
like you're in a noisy little dark room, naked and ashamed, and
there are things in the dark that need to hurt you because you're
bad. Little pinching things that go in your ears and crawl on
the inside of your skull. And you know, it the noise and teh crawling
would stop, that you could remember how to get out. But you never,
ever will."
That remained with me because when Glory brain sucks someone she
doesn't get their talents or memory she gets the ability to interact
in our reality. So to me that means that the element that she
removes is the unity of the mind the ability to use your personality
and memories, or your mind, in this reality. I think that she
was referring to how she, Glory feels when she has to feed. I
think that she loses her ability to interact in this reality.
So what has to be returned to Tara is that element of the mind
that takes her from outside reality back into reality. Tara is
lost in the dark room, we only have to find out what will open
the door to let her out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (oops, long) -- Solitude1056,
22:54:05 05/03/01 Thu
then don't go reading the spoilers at www.slayage.com - they're,
uh, quite extensive. (and they include all the disinformation,
too, which is rather hilarious to read for the past few episodes!)
:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (oops, long) --
Rufus, 23:04:07 05/03/01 Thu
I read spoilers and just take them as partial truths, and total
fibs......they are very entertaining....:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (spoilers, Ep 21) --
Wiccagrrl, 23:07:29 05/03/01 Thu
Spoiler space for Ep 21 (Weight of the World)
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
The TV Guide synopsis for this ep mentions the Buffy goes into
a catatonic state, and that Willow must use her powers go into
Buffy's mind and help her find her way back. I really think this
is going to tie into the Tara situation- that helping Buffy teaches
Willow how to help Tara, or vice versa. The description Glory
gave of what Tara's condition would be (of feeling trapped, lost,
trying to find your way out...but you never will) just ties in
so well to the type of pathworking (for lack of a better word)
Willow will be doing with Buffy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (oops, long) -- Malandanza,
23:55:22 05/03/01 Thu
A few comments:
***Oz up & left Willow, without any input from her. She found
him asleep and nekkid with someone else - and that kind of betrayal
is hard to forget or just put aside, especially when it results
in the other person deciding they can't be with you. Oz didn't
stick around to give Willow the chance to work through the anger
coming from that discovery, nor did Willow have the opportunity
(or guts) to unleash her anger on the Other Woman, though she
tried. In some ways, she was still learning her Art, and in some
ways, she'd not truly lost Oz - yet - so she still had something
to lose. ***
Willow's curse targeted both Oz and Veruca -- and it seemed to
me that Oz was the principle target since it was his picture being
used. In accordance with the rules of sympathetic magic, the spell
should have been more easily able to affect him than Veruca (at
least I do not remember seeing an item of Veruca's being offered
to the lower beings). Also, remember that Oz found Willow and
Xander curled up in bed together when he and Cordelia were trying
to rescue them -- Oz forgave Willow's conscious betrayal (and
a betrayal that occurred over an extended period of time) -- Willow
refused to even discuss the Veruca/Oz issue. In my opinion, Oz's
betrayal was not entirely his fault -- he is not responsible for
his actions as a wolf -- while Willow's betrayal is unjustifiable.
***Now, for the second half: we saw no consequences, unlike Willow's
previous spells. For starters, I'd suggest that's because her
vengeance was not going against the grain of the Buffyverse. She
may have unwittingly been acting with the PTB behind her and thus
her ability to not only slow Glory down but also to recover so
quickly. Where her other spells have verged on cross-grain magic,
this one may've been so properly with the grain that she would
be even more powerful as a result. Swimming with the current is
gonna get you there a lot faster, and perhaps this time the PTB's
current was behind her all the way.***
I believe the only currents in the Buffyverse are evil currents.
When Willow attempts harmful, destructive spells she is much more
effective than when she attempts helpful or innocuous spells.
Whoever or whatever powers these spells has a vested interest
in their outcomes -- these creatures provide the power necessary
for magic that has an evil intent -- no need to distort the outcome.
Positive magic must be carefully worded to prevent an equivocating
fiend from perverting the intent of the spell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (oops, long) -- Wiccagrrl,
09:08:15 05/04/01 Fri
Willow's curse targeted both Oz and Veruca -- and it seemed to
me that Oz was the principle target since it was his picture being
used. In accordance with the rules of sympathetic magic, the spell
should have been more easily able to affect him than Veruca (at
least I do not remember seeing an item of Veruca's being offered
to the lower beings). Also, remember that Oz found Willow and
Xander curled up in bed together when he and Cordelia were trying
to rescue them -- Oz forgave Willow's conscious betrayal (and
a betrayal that occurred over an extended period of time) -- Willow
refused to even discuss the Veruca/Oz issue. In my opinion, Oz's
betrayal was not entirely his fault -- he is not responsible for
his actions as a wolf -- while Willow's betrayal is unjustifiable.
Gonna take issue on a number of points. First, Oz did make the
decision to lock Veruca in the cage with him, before he wolfed
out. Oz' attraction to Veruca was very intense, even at non-wolfy
times. And very obvious to Willow. And as for not being willing
to talk to Oz about it, that's just not true. She freaked at first,
but she *did* want to try and work it out. Oz was the one who
wasn't willing to try and stick around and work things out together,
and told her no when she asked "Don't I get a say?"
And, if you remember, Oz pulled away for a bit after the Xander
thing, too. He didn't immediately say "it's ok, honey, I
understand" In fact, I remember him telling her to leave
him alone, and that her feeling guilty was "not his problem"
at that point. Not that that reaction wasn't justified, but I
think it's unfair to say Willow wasn't willing to forgive Oz the
way Oz forgave her. She didn't want him to leave. She wanted to
talk things out, try and work them out. Just like in the Xander
sitch, Oz set the pace, he decided to walk away, he decided when
to come back. Unfortunately for him, by the time he came back
in NMR, he'd been away too long. Willow'd moved on. His timing
was off.
Both people (Willow with Xander, Oz with Veruca) acted wrongly.
I don't condone the W/X kissage, or more importantly her lying
to Oz. I just don't think you can give Oz a free pass on his actions
in handling the Veruca situation at non-wolf times, which IMO
were more the problem/issue than whatever acts Oz/Veruca committed
when they wolfed out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Vengeance & Consequences (oops, long) --
Malandanza, 12:45:34 05/04/01 Fri
I fear we've drifted off topic a bit, but I do like discussing
Willow's moral failings :)
I see the Oz/Oz-wolf dynamic as analogous to the Angel/Angelus
dynamic. When Angelus has been in control, Angel is powerless.
When Angel is present, Angelus is still there, lurking in the
background, trying to corrupt Angel. We see the same pattern with
Oz -- he black out completely when the wolf takes over. However,
when he is Oz, the wolf is still there, just below the surface
(and, we have seen, can come out during periods of emotional trauma).
And both Oz and Angel blame themselves for the actions of their
alter-egos.
***Gonna take issue on a number of points. First, Oz did make
the decision to lock Veruca in the cage with him, before he wolfed
out.***
Here are some of Veruca's remarks about pre-wolfing:
Veruca: Right before sunset, I get a little buzzed, you know?
...Do you feel it? It's like blood boiling.
As sunset approaches, Oz has less control over his actions; the
wolf begins to dominate. So even the period just before he turns
is wolf-dominant.
***Oz' attraction to Veruca was very intense, even at non-wolfy
times. And very obvious to Willow.***
The werewolf hunter had mentioned that 'wolves are attracted to
sexual energy. It does seem as there is a reciprocal power --
a sort of animal magnetism -- that Veruca, at least, was radiating.
It was not merely Oz who felt the affect of Veruca, but all the
men. Consider Giles on Veruca when she is singing at the Bronze
(and the rest of the Scoobies are playing down her charisma because
they know Willow is jealous):
Giles : Really? I think she's rather remarkable. Such presence
for someone her age.
By contrast, if we examine the interaction between Oz and Veruca
as Oz was waiting for Willow at the lunch area, there was no flirtation
-- all the talk was business -- amps and things. Willow's jealousy
made the meeting awkward when she interrupted a conversation she
clearly knew nothing about. Why shouldn't Oz have been talking
shop with a fellow musician? He never placed any restrictions
on who Willow could associate with or when (not even Xander).
***And as for not being willing to talk to Oz about it, that's
just not true. She freaked at first, but she *did* want to try
and work it out. Oz was the one who wasn't willing to try and
stick around and work things out together, and told her no when
she asked "Don't I get a say?"***
Initially, Willow was unwilling to listen to anything Oz tried
to say -- she dismissed the comparison between her and Xander
as trivial, she tried to cast a spell to make Oz forever miserable
-- it was not until after Oz was packed and ready to leave that
she decided that she wanted to talk. Remember that Oz had just
killed a fellow human being -- definitely a disturbing experience.
He was not leaving out of spite, jealousy or any other base motive
-- he was leaving becasue:
Oz : No. Veruca was right about something. The wolf is inside
me all the time, and I don't know where that line is anymore between
me and it. And until I figure out what that means, I shouldn't
be around you... Or anybody.
***Both people (Willow with Xander, Oz with Veruca) acted wrongly.
I don't condone the W/X kissage, or more importantly her lying
to Oz. I just don't think you can give Oz a free pass on his actions
in handling the Veruca situation at non-wolf times, which IMO
were more the problem/issue than whatever acts Oz/Veruca committed
when they wolfed out.***
The Willow/Xander relationship happened over an extended period
of time -- premeditated. Oz/Veruca lasted two days. Willow admitted
to Buffy that she found keeping secret exciting (after Buffy had
been discovered harboring a returned Angel). For Oz, the secret
was excruciating. Oz has only loved one person during his entire
life. Willow has had Xander, Oz and Tara -- and it seems he is
a distant third in Willow's affections. Consider the reasons why
Willow began dating Oz: she was jealous of the X/C relationship,
she thought by dating a "cool" older guitarist she would
become less nerdy, curiousity about sex (she complained to Buffy
that Oz was moving too slowly in their relationship). Where is
the love? Oz was more committed to Willow than Willow was to Oz
(obviously -- Oz traveled the world to