Joss' idea for what to do when "Buffy" ends. (not
really spoilers, b/c no
decision's been made yet) -- Rob, 07:36:06 11/01/02
Loss Angel's Gain?
Friday, November 1, 2002
Word that Buffy the
Vampire Slayer may get a stake in the heart at the end of
the season could turn
out to be good news for sister series Angel. Joss Whedon —
producer of both shows — tells TV Guide Online that if Buffy
ends its seven-year
run in the spring, it's "very possible" some of the show's
MVPs could make a
permanent jump to Angel.
"I think it would be cool," says Whedon. "It's
sort of exciting, because you have this universe and all
these people and all of
their juxtapositions. It's interesting — to me anyway. But
until I know what's
happening with Buffy — and Angel — I don't know who will go
mere fact that Whedon's even looking ahead to a fifth season
of Angel is rather
remarkable in and of itself considering how bloody bad the
looked just a few months ago. In May, the WB announced that
it was banishing the
critically acclaimed yet low rated show to Sundays —
historically the network's
worst-performing night of the week. Just days later, the
co-creator and exec producer David Greenwalt defected to ABC
to work on the
midseason drama Miracles. And to make matters even worse,
replacement — writer-producer David Simkins — himself
stepped down in August.
But a funny thing happened when all the dust settled: Angel
is more than
holding its own in the Nielsens, and creatively, it's
stronger than ever. Even
Whedon — who, following the behind-the-scenes exodus
promoted Tim Minear and
Jeff Bell to exec producer ranks (alongside him) — marvels
at the turnaround. "I
thought if there was one show of mine that's going to be in
trouble [this year],
it is Angel," he says. "But it's really kicking it
out." — Michael
I'm still holding out hope that
SMG will reconsider, since she does seem to be more
receptive to the possibility
now, what with the "no decisions have been made yet"
statement she released
recently. But if she doesn't, having some more of the
"Buffy" characters join
the "Angel" cast would definitely be the next best thing.
Looking forward to
more developments on this as the year progresses!
[> Interesting -- thanks for posting that. -- yez,
[> When "Buffy" ends. (spoilers for BtVS S6 and AtS S3
& 4, unspoiled
speculation.) -- Arethusa, 09:53:53 11/01/02 Fri
This is potentially very exciting news. With no more Buffy
in Sunnydale, I could
see Willow graduating from college and moving to L. A.to
join the demon hunters
in AI. Ever since Spike's soul returned, I've wanted to see
him interact with
Angel. He could be independent, join AI, or even work with
Wesley, if Wes
doesn't rejoin AI. It would be fun to see W&H drive
themselves crazy trying
to figure out which vampire with a soul is the one in the
prophecies, and it
would inflame Angel's insecurities.
However, I can't picture Xander
leaving Sunnydale, or Angel wanting him to.
[> [> Agree and this is good news -- shadowkat,
I'd been worrying about Angel from the news clips I'd
read about poor ratings, etc. But maybe it's doing better
I too would love to see the characters of Spike and
cross over. Also wouldn't mind seeing Dawn pop in.
Not sure how
Xander would work though? Can't see a reason for him joining
Angel. But ME has
surprised me before.
[> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news (some
spec) -- Rob, 10:34:38 11/01/02 Fri
Actually, I was thinking
of that, too. I don't see Xander moving to LA. Perhaps a
good ending to "Buffy"
would be Willow moving to LA, while Xander stays in
Sunnydale and marries Anya.
Since EC doesn't want to return another year, that would
work well, b/c the
Xander/Anya story could be resolved (and I really do want
them to end up
On the other hand, if ME does find a good way to get Xander
to LA, I would love to see the interactions between him and
Angel. I wonder if
the dichotomy might change, now that Buffy has confronted
Xander about the
similarities btw. her relationship with Angel, and his with
Anya. Could be very
On the other other hand, I think Willow would be best
suited for AI, and I don't see both Willow and Xander
leaving Dawn and Buffy
alone in Sunnydale.
Spike would be great on "Angel," specifically b/c of
that prophecy about the vamp with a soul playing a role in
the Apocalypse. Now
that there is more than one vamp w/ a soul, that could lead
to some great drama
between the two of them.
[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news
future 'shipping) -- pr10n, 10:50:09 11/01/02 Fri
Kick start the Angel/Willow ship-of-fools. "Theirs is a
forbidden love," of
course, and wouldn't that put a crimp in Cordelia's
sainthood. "I'd rather see
you undead then with that bitca."
[> [> [> [> I think we're all missing the
best possible role for
Xander in A.I... -- vishanti, 10:54:42 11/01/02
No sentient being in the universe gets under Angel's
skin the way Xander does. Xander's very presence seems to
feelings up to the surface. Long after their competition
over Buffy was
finished, they kept sniping at each other in the grand,
classic fashion of two
guys who simply hate each other's guts (GD Pt.1). And who
can forget Angel's
undercover workover of Xander's jaw in "Enemies"? (I tell
you, it would be a
shame to waste that much bad blood.)
Besides, now that Angel's hot for
Cordelia, the introduction of Xander into the mix would be a
nice reversal of
Buffy S1: Angel's got a clear field, and suddenly, the old
in--and maybe Cordy still has some feelings for Xander,
especially since they
went out on such a good note ("The Prom"). More tension and
[Xander could also teach Gunn a thing or two about snarking
on Angel. If
nothing else, he has to teach Gunn to call our hero "Dead
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Xander and Cordy --
20:46:00 11/01/02 Fri
I have actually been thinking about this since the whole
thing began developing: Cordy really hasn't had a long-term
Xander, has she? A few dates--most notably the guy who
knocked her up with a
demon-fetus--but no serious relationship. For all that we
yak about Buffy's
unability to open up emotionally since Angel left her, she
has at least made an
attempt at relationships since then; Cordy really
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Xander and Cordy-
I meant to say, nobody after Xander until Gru, but the thing
Gru reappears just as the Angel-Cordy thing is starting to
develop, so I think
it has to be regarded as part of Angel and Cordy rather than
a separate thing in
itself. In Pylea, he was just another of her almost-
relationships; he shows up
just as Angel realizes he's in love with her, and leaves
just as she realizes
she's in love with him (Angel).
[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news
future spec) -- Random, 13:40:30 11/01/02 Fri
So what are we
picturing here, Rob? Impending apocalypse, Angel's, sword in
hand and trench
coat billowing, flexs his knees as he prepares to jump into
the fray and...hey,
leggo, Spike! What do you think you're doing?!?
Spike: Back off, you
Nancy-boy poofter. What the bloody 'ell gives you the idea
you're going to save
all those Happy Meals on legs? Don't you have a pedicure or
Spike, I'm warning you...if this apocalypse destroys the
world while you're
sitting here annoying me, I'll...
Spike: You'll what? Bloody git, you think
just 'cause you got a soul first that means you get to
fulfill all the
prophecies? Newsflash, gel-for-brains, I got a bloody soul
too and you may have
gotten vamped first and shagged Buffy first but by god! this
time, it's the big
More in this same vein until the apocolypse overtakes them
Spike finds out why it's really a super bad idea to have a
soul in hell...as
Angel could have told him, having done that first too.
[> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- Rob,
16:10:39 11/01/02 Fri
[> [> [> How about these. (speculation, no
spoilers) -- Shiraz,
12:03:26 11/01/02 Fri
Oddly enough, I've been thinking about this
recently, and in my opinion, Xander is the most likely
character to be brought
over. Here's why:
1. Nick Brendon is a good actor who knows the Whedon
Universe well, but, aside from Buffy, his acting CV is
somewhat thin. Therefore,
as an actor, NB may be more willing than other members of
the cast to move to
the spinoff series.
2. His rivalry with Angel and history with Cordie
would provide a lot of good plot material (if handled
for why Xander would be in LA, well, umm... the Hyperion!
Its in crappy
condition, and it really looks like they could use a good
there. Add to that Angel's constant money problems and the
fang gang needs one
on the cheap. Somebody, who, say owed them some favors, or
who could be guilted
into accepting the job by a mutual friend.
4. As to why Xander would
leave Sunnydale; if BTVS ends with the Hellmouth closed, the
sudden lack of
buildings violently crashing down could lead to some
unemployment problems among
Sunnydale's typicallly overworked construction
proffessionals. Besides which, a
part of Xander has always wanted to leave Sunnydale, since
the end of Season 3
the only thing keeping him there has been his friends and
his lack of direction.
Just my take on things,
[> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news --
Interesting if Willow moves over to Angel - I'm sure
Alyson and Alexis would be happy about it, although I wonder
what she thinks of
those scenes between Lilah & Wes. :-)
[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good
Raven_NightDragon, 13:26:50 11/01/02 Fri
Probably the same thing
he thought whenever she kissed Amber... uhm, then again,
probably not. Never
mind, I'm rambling
[> [> [> [> [> Button, button, who has the
button? My money is
on... -- tricky_d, 13:50:27 11/01/02 Fri
Xander. For many of
the reasons given in previous posts. And plus a part of me
would just love to
see how that might play out. After so many long years of
helping the Slayer
through thick and thin, it would be nice for the X-man to
realize that he really
is a Hero no less than the others. Plus he has shown over
the years that he has
a cool head in combat, and is "a fair hand with a cleaver,
it must be said." It
would also be funny to have scenes of W&H trying to
figure out just what in
the hell he brings to the table.
Also Spike would be great to have
aboard. Because JM is such a damn good actor that you could
go in a million
directions with him and not risk hokieness. And plus, I
would love to see him
smart off to Cordy and get flat out decked, he'd never see
Personally though, I would like Spike to somehow be able to
Buffy and be happy, but then I am an old romantic.
I think EC would be a
good addition to. She want's to define her own role, be her
own woman. She moves
to the big city, ala Cordy in City Of Angel gets into
some kind of
trouble and along comes big, dark, and broody to save her.
It couldn't hurt for
a demon-hunting crew to have her 1000+ years of
Demonological expertise on
As for Willow, how would the AI team deal with a co-worker
that kind of enormous power? And how would Will handle
having an even geeky
version of herself around, in Fred? Though being around
someone who understands
her darkside (Angelus has tried to end the world too) might
be theraputic for
My dream line up for an all out whoop ass brawl would be
Spike, Conner, Cordy, Xander, Gunn, Wes and Will. But that
seems like a lot of
power for Angel to coordinate. How would he likely handle
the extended family?
One thing is clear, W&H would have to hire more thug--
[> [> [> [> About to say the same thing re:
AH/AD -- Scroll,
13:36:02 11/01/02 Fri
Good thing I read through the whole thread
first. But yeah, I bet Alexis would love to have his girl on
the set with him.
But I can't put too much hope into this possibility because
AH really is a
phenomenal actress who has her foot in the movie business.
It would make more
sense for her to pursue movies rather than be another
since we already have a book person (Wes), a science person
(Fred), and a
psuedo-magic person (Cordy).
James Marsters, OTOH, doesn't have as much
of a rep in Hollywood. He might be enticed over to "Angel".
I'd love to see
Spike and Connor rebelling against Angel, snarking about
their "father" figure,
and getting into fights.
[> [> [> [> [> Well... -- Masq,
If Connor doesn't try killing Spike first. : )
[> [> [> [> [> Re: About to say the same
thing re: AH/AD
-- vh, 14:10:58 11/01/02 Fri
I suppose you might be right about
Mr Marsters, but that just makes me wonder about how people
anyway. What's wrong with them? You put on a pair of fangs,
can't act? He has plenty of talent, and I'd love to see him
do other things.
[> [> [> [> [> OK, is there some Alysson
Hannigan and Alexis
Denisoff connection I don't know about? -- Finn Mac
[> [> [> [> [> [> Last I heard,
Hannigan & Denisof were
dating. *shrug* -NT -- ZachsMind, 21:02:21 11/01/02
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes. -- HonorH,
They've been an item since AD left BtVS for L.A. That's--
see--about two and a half years now. He accompanied her to
England while she was
filming with ASH. Offhand, I'd say it's fairly serious.
[> [> [> Yummy, slashy goodness ! -- Ete,
I would love to see Spike and Angel interract ^_^
[> I cringed when I read this... -- yabyumpan,
Personally, I hate the idea of anyone form BtVS moving to
could possibly take Spike turning up for the odd episode and
comming for one visit, as I think there's unfinished
business between him and
Cordy and i wouldn't mind seeing his reaction to the new
Cordy, ditto Giles
meeting up with Wesley again but other than that, can I just
say 'cast bloast'!
I think we're getting pretty close to this on AtS at the
moment anyway, one more
regular would just tip it over the edge.
I also like that they're
seperate, maybe because BtVS has pretty much lost me over
the last few years, I
don't like or care about any of the characters anymore. AtS
is doing better than
ever this year, I'd like to see it follow through on that
interference from the mother ship.
[> [> I agree! -- Masq, 15:38:22 11/02/02
[> Re: Joss' idea for what to do when "Buffy"
ends. -- JBone,
17:58:33 11/01/02 Fri
This actually may work with my "Cordelia
returns to Sunnydale" theory for the end of this season.
Only instead of her not
coming back to AtS next year, she returns with a couple
characters in tow. I'm
going to approach it from the direction that everyone, for
leaves Sunnydale. And I'm also going on the assumption that
All that said, this is what I think of everyone's chances of
showing up at the
Hyperion in Season 5.
Buffy - Maybe for an episode or two here and there,
but I think she makes tracks with Dawn to Canada.
Willow - I can see her
showing up later on, for a quick visit, but Willow has
options. As long as she
finishes that degree. And it's all about options, buddy.
Xander - A move
to LA would make a lot of sense for him, as long as everyone
Sunnydale. He use to make a lot of noise about getting off
the hellmouth, but he
won't go far. I don't think he'll hook up with Cordy again,
unless she is still
a demon. Very likely to remodel the Hyperion.
Dawn - She goes where Buffy
goes, (Canada), but we need that scene where she'll drool
all over Connor, so
she'll pop in with Buffy at least once.
Spike - His relocation to LA
makes sense also. We still don't know what Spike with a soul
is like. He didn't
exactly get along with Angel when they were both evil, so I
doubt they will when
they both have souls. Nonetheless, it would make great tv.
He, along with Buffy,
Oz and Willow have actually been on AtS. Angel should have
Giles - Easiest one. Back to merry old England and hopefully
show at long last.
Anya - Hardest one. She's seen Angel once, and only
knows Cordelia. Oh, I forgot that she also knows the old
Wesley. I really can't
see her hanging out with Xander's only other real
girlfriend. But since it is
all about options, buddy, what are hers? Follow Xander? One
thing for sure, if
she did join the team, AI would become a money making
Clem - Sure, why not. What else is he going to
Sunnydale human populace - Let's see, they're mostly white,
humans, so they won't move to LA. They'll probably join the
California for the mountain states.
Sunnydale's "other" populace - LA and
Even though I'm thinking that Xander and Spike are the most
likely candidates to transplant, I don't like how that will
leave the ratio
there. Way too many Y chromosomes for Cordy, Fred and umm,
Lilah. Maybe one of
Angel's guys will meet their doom. Not Wesley, because well,
because I'm not
sure he can be killed. Maybe Gunn? Lorne is a goner for
sure. But not Connor,
because we need that meeting with Dawn.
[> [> hehe -- M, 00:20:10 11/03/02 Sun
Dawn in Vancouver. I'm happy.
[> I want to have Tim Minear's baby...love the man's
LeeAnn, 23:11:43 11/01/02 Fri
At least on Firefly which is where
I first actually looked at the writer's name cause I liked
some of the dialogue
[> [> Get in line, honey! -- HonorH,
00:13:56 11/02/02 Sat
[> [> [> I could deal with a warm handshake and
conversation....you guys can keep the childbirth...;) --
I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22-4.4,
-- Masq, 09:22:15 11/01/02 Fri
caveat: You spoiler trollops may
already know if this is true or false, but I don't!
I've been rewatching
the end of AtS Season 3 in light of the new season 4
episodes and I'm further
refining my whole theory about what's up with Cordelia.
In my ep
analysis, I stated my opinion that Cordy's "ascent" wasn't
what it appeared to
be. We are getting more and more evidence that that is true.
Going back to the
season finale "Tomorrow", I was again struck by the scene in
Connor, Gunn, and Fred return from the movies. Angel is on
top of the world. He
is bonding with Connor, Connor seems to look up to him now,
and Lorne told him
Cordelia has feelings for him.
Then Cordelia calls him and asks to meet
him. She implies this will be a romantic meeting. In this
scene, the word
"happy" gets thrown around a lot. Connor says, "it's good to
see you happy,
dad". Angel is swooning. Fred and Gunn look concerned. "He's
happy," Fred says. Then she goes as far as to get up and
poke Angel just to
irritate him back into a somewhat normal frame of mind.
Not that it does.
Things are going very well for Angel, at least in his own
mind. I believe that
if his rendevous with Cordelia had gone off as planned,
Angel would have
completely lost it. His soul, that is. All he would have
needed to hear was
Cordelia's admissions of her feelings, and maybe there'd be
a kiss, and
This is the point where the PTB's step in. They don't step
often, preferring to let people act out of their own free
will, but they have
intervened in the lives of our heroes before, and I think
they do this time. I
think it was clear from Cordelia's boredom in the higher
dimensions and her
desire to get out of there that Cordelia wasn't up there
fighting the Good
She'd been kidnapped.
She was whisked out of the way to
prevent that moment of true happiness that would have turned
the PTB's Champion*
into the vicious Angelus. The PTB's didn't intend to take
her forever, just long
enough to make sure Angel's life was sufficiently miserable
that Cordelia could
be returned. She doesn't belong in the higher planes, she
This is also why Skip wouldn't let Cordelia tell Angel her
feelings for him before she left. Just being on the safe
raises of the question of Connor. Did the PTB's know he was
going to betray
Angel at the beach, thereby thwarting the whole "happiness
clause" danger? If
they did, they might not have interfered by taking Cordelia.
But I don't think
so. I'm not one of these folks who thinks the PTB's are all-
powerful and can
read the hearts and minds of human beings. Skip said in
"Birthday" that free
will is one thing the PTB's can't anticipate or do much
I think if
they did suspect Connor was being duplicitious with his
they feared Connor's betrayal would come too late to prevent
Angel from losing
his soul. So they stepped in.
Then we get to Cordelia's return to Earth.
I don't believe she was sent back because she "broke the
rules" and interfered
with Angel's slot machine. I think the PTB's decided it was
time for her to be
returned where she belonged. But they didn't want Cordelia
rebonding with Angel.
So they sent her back with no memory. I speculated in my ep
analysis of STB that
Cordelia was given an innate trust of Connor, because the
PTB's want her to team
up with him for some reason (and no, it's not for
that's my theory. "Take it and Run" (TM)
* Yes, I used "the word". So
[> It makes sense to me.. -- AurraSing,
10:23:58 11/01/02 Fri
The timing of Cordelia's ascent was certainly suspicious to
she had done a lot of great and wonderful things since she
joined Angel fighting
evil,she certainly had not done the number of 'selfless'
acts a character like
Buffy has performed over the years-so why pick her??
It also sounds like
W+H need Angelus and not Angel when the big day goes down.I
wonder who they have
been priming to make sure Angel does have that happy moment
and turns into his
(I also hope your forecasting of the bond between Cordy and
Connor does come true...I'll be "watching" ATS behind my
hands if any
Cordy/Connor nookie does come about! Ewwwwwwww!!)
[> [> Skip as prison warden (spoilers for S4,
Scroll, 13:08:21 11/01/02 Fri
It also sounds like W+H need
Angelus and not Angel when the big day goes down.I wonder
who they have been
priming to make sure Angel does have that happy moment and
turns into his bad
I'm not sure we can say conclusively that W&H want Angel
without a soul. From everything I've seen in Season 2, I
think the senior
partners want Angel dark, not necessarily soulless.
They want him to lose
his moral centre, to do questionable and evil things with
intact. Such as feed a bunch of lawyers to Darla and
Dru, such as ignore
Cordelia's visions of people in need.
And I totally agree with you and
Masq about Cordy's "ascension" having very suspicious
timing. Also consider
Skip's previous job description. He was a prison guard,
keeping watch over Billy
Blim (demon boy whose touch made men violently insane in
early Season 3). He
made sure Billy couldn't escape his fire cell in hell. If we
take this into
consideration, couldn't Skip just have been keeping Cordelia
in a really nice,
white, heavenly-looking jail cell?
But I have to wonder if there are any
less critical watchers of "Angel" who might actually accept
Cordy as a Higher
Being. Who don't see the irony or the implausibility. Will
they feel they've
been tricked if/when Joss pulls back the curtain and show
that Cordelia never
deserved "Higher Being" status?
[> [> [> Most of the people... -- Masq,
...who took Cordelia's ascension at face value tend think to
was the lamest story idea ever and then bitch about how the
show has "Jumped the
Shark", even if they don't use that cliched phrase to sum up
If it is revealed that this wasn't what really happened to
after all (raised to be a higher being), they will accuse ME
of retcon to cater
to fan opinion.
I read the posts at the official WB Angel site sometimes,
just to remind myself why I hang around over here. A non-
ending stream of debate
over whether Angel and Cordelia would make a good couple
with no mention of the
"true happiness" problem, mis-spelled remarks stating that
Connor is either
soo cute or he "suks", and, of course, interspersed
Cordelia's hair, clothes, glowing, powers.
At least when we do all of the
above we do it by offering reasons to back up our opinions
and we attempt to
have grammatical sentences! : )
[> [> [> [> I'll admit on first watching
Scroll, 14:06:36 11/01/02 Fri
My jaw was dropped from the moment
Skip opened his mouth and said, "Higher Being." And my jaw
stayed dropped until
I had rewound and watched that scene over two more times.
Then I picked my jaw
up and said, "Joss better have a damn good explanation cuz I
can't see anyone
believing Cordelia is worthy of being a Higher Being."
Then the next day,
I watched the whole episode over again, and went, "Hmm. I
think ol' Skip there
is pulling our leg." Then I laughed and said, "Cordy's being
being pla-ayed (to be read in a sing-song voice). Ha!"
BTW, Masq, if
we're wrong, boy are we going to look stupid! And I'll never
trust Joss again.
(Possibly.) Because the very idea that anyone
deserves to be a Higher
Being just irks me. Fortunately, the implication that
Cordelia spent her summer
being completely bored and not, oh say, "fighting the good
fight on another
plane of existence", seems to back up the Skip-Tricked-Cordy
Yeah, I've only lurked on the WB "Angel" board once or
find a lot of other boards never seem to catch on to the
"hidden" messages Joss
sends out to us. I suppose I can't blame people for enjoying
a TV show only on a
superficial level, even though I'll read their posts and
wonder what show
they're watching because it's certainly not the show I'm
the PTB for ATPo, eh?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'll admit on first
"Tomorrow"... -- Masq, 15:31:36 11/01/02 Fri
Tell me about
it! When I watched "Tomorrow" for the first time, I just
cringed through that
whole Skip-and-Cordy thing, thinking, "this is so lame!"
It was only
after I got on the board and saw people speculating that it
wasn't what it
appeared that I calmed down.
Then, during my analysis of the episode days
later, I realized something was actually amiss in that whole
scenario. What set
the whole thing off was Cordelia's vision of herself. She's
thinking about Angel
and she has a vision of herself. In the vision, she sees her
responding to Skip's comments about being a higher being,
but she doesn't know
realize the context of what she is seeing--she thinks that
her vision-self is
talking about Angel. I thought... why would the PTB's give
her a misleading
So I came up with my "all is not as it appears" theory. But
still mostly wishful thinking!
Now when I rewatch the episode "Tomorrow",
I put that Skip-Cordy bit on "mute" to avoid its lameness.
Makes it kind of hard
to enjoy the non-lame Connor-sends-daddy-to-the-fishes bit,
though, since the
two scenes are intercut with each other.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ha! It *is* lame!
16:41:19 11/01/02 Fri
You're right, that whole scene is lame,
which kinda bites cuz I'm fascinated by the Angel/Connor
dynamics. So much
bitterness and hatred and love and confusion, then -- you're
a Higher Being, no
really! you are! -- dark, angry teen welding his father into
a coffin -- what
you're doing Transcends Love! Really! That entire sequence
makes me cringe and
feel so sorry for Charisma Carpenter. She must've *hated*
doing that episode. (I
heard rumours that CC didn't like where her character was
going in Season 3. I
won't say her feelings were unwarranted.)
So as you can tell, I'm totally
on board for your theory. :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ha! It *is*
lame! -- Rob,
23:09:54 11/01/02 Fri
"She must've *hated* doing that
...Unless she had already been informed as to what was
really going on. If that is what's really
[> [> [> [> irony -- M, 22:24:27
I believed it simply because it was so ridiculous. Joss
always tries to
mess with our heads. It just seemed funny to me that
Cordilia of all people
should acend to heaven. I honestly think she was the
cleverest choice. I love
[> [> C/C makes me think of a Huggies commercial
gone wrong..... --
Rufus, 16:48:54 11/01/02 Fri
I can't get past the fact that Cordy
had changed and burped Connor....I don't care how time in
went...it still freaks me out.
[> [> [> *snerk* -- Masq, 16:58:11
[> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22-
speculation) -- Rob, 10:26:14 11/01/02 Fri
Great spec, Masq.
In fact, that's the best theory I've heard about this yet,
and it definitely
makes logical sense. All of the pieces in your theory seem
to fit perfectly. I
guess then, the slot machine thing was put in as a red
herring to instantly get
people thinking that that was why Cordy was kicked out of
dimension. I'm not spoiled either, but I'd be willing to bet
that what you've
proposed is at least partly where the writers are going with
this. I don't think
that they would have given Cordy amnesia unless there was a
very big purpose in
the story. If there wasn't, she probably would have been
cured by the end of
"Slouching..." The fact that she still hasn't lends more
credence to your ideas.
I just wonder now how ME is going to proceed--how long she
memory-wiped, how the heck she will get her memory back, and
even if she ever
will. I am very looking forward to answers about this. As ya
know, I'm still new
to "Angel," (I've seen the first seven eps in a marathon run
yesterday, and some
scattered other eps) but out of everything I've seen and
been able to understand
of the fourth season so far, I am most intrigued at the
moment by Cordy's
character and what the heck happened to her (not that I
don't find everything
else interesting also).
[> [> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for
AtS 3.22-4.4, future
speculation) -- Darby, 10:37:58 11/01/02 Fri
about the plotting direction. It's got it all - symmetry,
synchronicity, and a
certain amount of style. And it removes the need for Skip to
hard-to-explain sinister / evil motives.
Still don't trust the PTB, but I
suspect it's too early for them to be tipping their hands
[> [> I did get inadvertantly spoiled... --
About how Cordelia might get her memory back.
Serves me right for wandering around strange "Angel: the
trolling for screen-shots. My momma warned me about taking
screen shots from
The spoiler, if it's right, was a bit reassuring to me. It
not give away why Cordelia has no memory, though. That's
just me spook-ulating
[> [> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for
AtS 3.22-4.4, future
speculation) -- leslie,
08:46:08 11/02/02 Sat
I did enjoy, though, the rapidity with
which, despite her loss of personal memory, Cordy's own
re-emerged. Especially threatening to turn Fred into a
[> Allow me to play devil's advocate... --
..it is certain that the PTB have had a copy o' the
scrolls of Aversion lying about for several centuries, which
means they know all
about the vamp-with-a-soul, which means (as I think Whistler
in "Passion" shows)
they have had an interest in Angelus/Angel from the
beginning. And yet they did
not mind him turning in Sunnydale, they did nothing at all
to prevent it. It
didn't matter to them (or to Buffy) whether Angelus/ Angel
was in that moment to
stop the Apocalypse. Either way Angel/Angelus was going to
your whole thoery is based on two implicit premises; one is
that the PTB want
Angel and not Angelus when the time comes. That is certainly
the assumption at
Angel Investigations, and at Wolfram & Hart. But is it
correct to assume
that the PTB have a stake in which of the two personalities
show up in the long
run? Maybe, but, as was the case in Sunnydale, maybe not. It
might matter very
much less to the PTB that Angel and not Angelus is around
for the big show so
long as one of them accomplishes the task they have him
The second assumption is Wesley's assumption. This is that
even capable of turning. As the old saying goes: "Fool me
once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me." It occurs to me that Angel's
knowledge of the
curse, and of the reprocussions of his happiness might offer
him a perpetually
slight discomfort in happy situations, just enough to
bolster him against the
curse permanently. A conscience can be a very haunting thing
That said, I also feel that Skip was less than forthright
reasons for taking Cordy. If the case were that she was to
be a "warrior for
good" on the higher planes it does seem that she would have
been a little more
occupied than she appeared to be.
All speculation aside, I think we
really do not have the goods on know why Cordy was brought
back just yet. Nor
are we meant to.
Though your interpretation of events does fit. It is
possible that there are others.
My own feeling is that Angel will, at
some point during this season, turn. In fact, I want to see
him turn. My feeling
is that Wolfram & Hart have absolutely no idea what
Angelus is capable of
doing to their plans if he were uncorked. They seem to think
that he might fall
in with their scumbag rank and file, but I think that is a
very naive belief. If
anything, Angelus might be MORE dangerous to them than Angel
ever could. Just
imagine how he and Lilah might play out. Were he to turn, my
guess is that the
AI gang would end up going to work with Wesley's crew, with
exception of Lorne (who really does not slay much).
Of course were he to
turn, he would still be obsesive about Cordy, as we saw with
Buffy. Perhaps the
PTB brought Cordy to them to prepare her for the job of
fighting Angelus, and
perhaps restoring his soul when the time comes.
of course this is all
just another speculation about the uncertain future. Only
the PTB's (and Joss)
know what is coming with certainty.
[> [> Re: Allow me to play devil's advocate...
-- Rob, 12:54:41
...Don't forget that now that Angel is no longer the
only vamp-with-a-soul, it's possible that that prophecy was
never meant for him
in the first place. Just a thought to mull over.
[> [> bedeviling the advocate @>) -- anom,
"..it is certain that the PTB have had a copy o' the scrolls
Aversion lying about for several centuries, which means they
know all about the
vamp-with-a-soul, which means (as I think Whistler in
"Passion" shows) they have
had an interest in Angelus/Angel from the beginning. And yet
they did not mind
him turning in Sunnydale, they did nothing at all to prevent
may fall under the same thing Skip told Cordelia in
Birthday: the PTB can't
predict things like love. Humans & their feelings are
the wild card. Just as
they didn't know Doyle would fall in love w/Cordelia &
pass his visions to
her w/a kiss just before he sacrificed himself, they didn't
know Buffy &
Angel would fall in love, leading them to make love &
thus bring out
In fact, now it occurs to me to wonder if the PTB did take a
hand in making sure Willow's resouling spell worked,
channeling the Gypsy
woman's spirit to her across the centuries (OK,
century...plus) to bring back
Angel. On the other hand, it probably would have been more
to their advantage to
see to it that the spell worked the 1st time, so
feeling is that Wolfram & Hart have absolutely no idea
what Angelus is
capable of doing to their plans if he were uncorked. They
seem to think that he
might fall in with their scumbag rank and file, but I think
that is a very naive
I think the idea that they could control any vampire was
probably scotched by their experience w/Darla & Dru.
Angelus might cooperate
w/them short term if he perceived it as in his interest, but
the moment it
wasn't, he'd turn on them. W&H are hardly naive; it
would be completely out
of character for them not to realize that. Besides, by now
they must've done
some thorough research on him & know at least as much as
Kate was able to
find out in what, a few days?
Oh, & 2 monkey wrenches in all "vamp
w/soul" prophecies: Angelus isn't a vamp w/a soul, & now
[> [> You're Forgetting. . . -- Finn Mac Cool,
Neither the Powers That Be nor Wolfram & Hart want
back. The prophecies say that a vampire with a soul will
have a pivotal role in
an upcoming apocalypse (though which apocalypse and which
side he will be on
when the time comes isn't resolved). I'm pretty sure that,
if W&H wanted
Angelus back, it would have happened by now. The reason they
haven't is that the
prophecies all speak of a vampire with a soul, not a vampire
who once had a soul
but lost it. Angelus has no destined role in the Apocalypse,
only the souled
Angel does. Thus, W&H are trying to turn Angel dark; not
by removing his
soul, but by corrupting it to their purposes. Likewise, the
PTBs want Angel to
keep his soul so that he can turn the tide for their side
Ooh, interesting thought: what if the Powers' campaign
against evil isn't doing so good? Maybe sometime in season 4
Angel's soul because, however much good he might do if he
fought on their side
come the apocalypse, they dare not risk the consequences if
he joined the dark
side. So they remove his soul, make the prophecy moot, and
cut their losses.
[> [> [> WOW, great theory, Finn! (spoilers for
speculation) -- Scroll, 16:52:30 11/01/02 Fri
interesting thought: what if the Powers' campaign against
evil isn't doing so
good? Maybe sometime in season 4 they'll remove Angel's soul
much good he might do if he fought on their side come the
apocalypse, they dare
not risk the consequences if he joined the dark side. So
they remove his soul,
make the prophecy moot, and cut their losses.
Finn, that is
brilliant! I've heard rumours (nothing confirmed) that
Angelus is supposed to
make an appearance this season. I don't know how or for how
long, but all the
theories I've heard so far regarding how and
why Angel loses his
soul are pretty stupid. Lame Theory #1: The Fang Gang
need to access Angelus'
memories in order to stop a bad guy, so they do a spell to
take away Angel's
soul. Not only is this a very dumb plan, it doesn't even
metaphysically since Angel doesn't get amnesia just because
he has a soul!
Anyway, I love your theory because it would just be so
would be all, "But I'm supposed to Shanshu! I'm the vampire
with a soul! What do
you mean, you don't want me to be a Champion anymore! What
about destiny?!" Then
he would pout, the PTB would strip his soul, and we would
have leather pants
again. Maybe Angelus would do us a favour and eat... any
characters we don't
like. It would be so, so good.
(I was going to name who it was I don't
like, but didn't want to devolve into character bashing. I'm
trying to be good,
[> [> [> [> future-y spoilers for season
4 -- Masq,
16:59:39 11/01/02 Fri
Just so long as he doesn't eat Connor.
[> [> [> [> [> In Scroll's post, I mean :
) -- Masq,
17:03:10 11/01/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> Twisted as it is, it has
Joss written all over
it.... -- Juliet, 19:16:55 11/02/02 Sat
[> What word? -- DickBD, 12:08:12 11/01/02
"nookies" or "free will"? I was pretty sure that
philosophers had dismissed the
idea of free will as meaningless, as behavior is always
caused by something. Now
biological studies (especially Francis Crick in his project
on the mind) seem to
be putting the final nail in the coffin.
I always thought of "free will"
as a religious concept to provide an excuse for the presence
of evil and for
people to get themselves condemned to hell (a la Voltaire).
But apparently, some
atheistic existentialists believe in free will. Or am I
wrong? And it seems to
me that I read some place that Joss Whedon was of that
[> [> Re: Check the asterisk in the post and a
thread below. --
Darby, 12:15:52 11/01/02 Fri
[> [> [> Thanks. I couldn't find the @#$%
asterisk! (But I finally
did.) -- DickBD, 12:33:26 11/01/02 Fri
[> [> Re: What word? -- Arethusa, E. A.,
Free will is the opposite of "behavior is always caused by
something." We are not Pavlov's dogs; each decision we make
is a conscious
choice. Biological factors may affect our decisions, but we
always have the
choice to not follow our compulsions or inclinations.
Religions isn't part of
the decision making process, since an existentialist creates
her own moral code.
I'm short of time, but would love to continue the discussion
[> [> [> Great! -- DickBD, 12:42:01
I look forward to debating free will with someone who is not
To me the concept has long been meaningless, as our behavior
determined by a combination of environment and heredity.
(And environment would
include existential teachings!) Consequences are not
unwarranted since they can
change behavior--but application of them can be more humane
if the truth
of the situation is recognized.
I grant the illusion of free will.
I can do what I want. But I can't determine what I want.
[> [> [> [> Rambling thoughts on free will in
-- Masq, 13:00:04 11/01/02 Fri
I am also a person who understands
the concept of free will in a non-religious way. I tend to
agree with a very
broad version of scientific determinism that takes into
account the extreme
complexity of the causal factors that impinge on a person
from the outside world
and from inside themselves.
I give a brief
synopsis of the classical
views on this issue at my site. Of those views, I
think the most
accurate is Hume's Soft Determinism.
The Buffyverse view of Free Will is
a bit more complicated than any of these, though. With
precognition being a real
phenomenon in that 'verse, and prophecies abounding, one has
to wonder how much
"free will" there is. Of course, prophecies are mutable,
thwartable, yada yada.
Buffyverse characters stand up to them all the time and say,
That is not contradictory to soft determinism, but it does
throw a wrench in the fatalism and pre-determinism
characters refer to "free will", I think they mean a person
is not be coerced
into something; their choices to act are determined,
but they are
determined from inside the person, and that is what is meant
by "free will". The
PTB's almost always let people make their own decisions.
They don't try to tell
Angel or whomever what to do, or if they do, it's a
suggestion, not an order or
a coersive situation.
Each Buffyverse character very much act out of his
or her internal "character". They are "free" to be the kind
of people that they
are, most of the time. External forces sometimes prevent
this, of course, as
they do in anyone's life. Nevertheless, each character's
determined. But since each character is so complex,
it's sometimes hard
for us to predict what they do. Doesn't mean it wasn't
determined by the kind of
person that they are.
OK, I'm rambling now. Just some thoughts on free
will in the Buffyverse.
[> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- DickBD,
That was terrific. I went to the link and read what you had
say about “soft determinism.” I guess I would still be a
hard determinist. I
choose, but my choice is determined by my experiences, my
mood, my biology, and
a myriad of other factors that are difficult to take into
account. Maybe even
the fact that free will seems so obviously fallacious to me
I have noted that some try to argue for free will because
discipline of quantum mechanics seems to indicate that the
universe is not
deterministic. I tend to think that just because we can’t
get enough information
to predict things does not make them non-deterministic.
Nevertheless, even if
quantum fluctuations affected what we do, that still would
not be free will. It
is important that we make moral choices, but those choices
are determined by
many confounding factors. If that were not so, why would
parents spend so much
time training their children to make the “right”
In any case, I
appreciate your response.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks! --
Arguing on the basis of quantum mechanics may take away
complete determinism (if A happens, B will happen,
every time) but all it
gives us in return is randomness (if A happens, B, C or D,
will happen, and
there is no law or anything else in the universe in
the universe that
I don't think people want to believe their decisions
arise from the random actions of the subatomic particles in
brains, and environment any more than they want them to
arise from the immutable
natural laws that govern their bodies, brains and
is what they mean by "free will".
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks!
-- Finn Mac Cool,
15:21:17 11/01/02 Fri
Fate (and thus a lack of
free will) do exist, because everything is a reaction to
something else. If you
take two people, who are biologically identical, are in the
same state of being,
have exactly the same memories, and are put in exactly the
same situation: both
will act exactly the same way.
However, the interactions of the world are
so enormously complex that it is impossible to really
predict anything. While
everything is pre-determined, unless fortune telling or time
travel are proven
possible, the existence of fate is meaningless, because a
destiny no one knows
about may as well be the result of chance.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Thanks! -- DickBD,
14:13:44 11/02/02 Sat
I guess I would agree with all that,
although I would call it determinism rather than fate. It
seems the only way our
hunter-gatherer minds can make sense of thing is in cause
and effect. Being able
to predict allowed Newton to sell his gravitation theory.
Heck, even quantum
mechanics is accepted because it can make astonishingly
(And this is at the subatomic level, where no one really
knows what is going on,
and it is impossible to measure thing, getting all the
interfering in the process.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> "We must
believe in free will. (We
have no choice!)" -- DickBD, 14:01:08 11/02/02
confess that free will never made any sense to me. Where
would uncaused behavior
ever come from? I think Francis Crick is working out the
sense of self that we
all have. I think one reason that people rebel against the
idea of non-free will
(if you will) is that it then seems as though there is no
that is not true. We must all accept consequences. I think
it just makes us more
humane in dealing with others with defective behavior. We
have the right to
imprison them to keep society safe, but it should be humane,
comforts and rights involved.
I don’t remember who first used the smart
aleck quote that I used as a subject line, but I like
existentialism require free will? I do think the universe is
Angel, though, I also believe that very fact may make a
single act of kindness
the most meaningful thing of all. (But my genetics and
experiences cause me to
believe that way!)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "We
must believe in free
will. (We have no choice!)" -- Masq, 15:24:13
Your quote really isn't smart aleck, it's a psychological
truth. We have
to think of our actions in terms of free will even if it is
think where people get mixed up with the whole free will vs.
is they think determinism means being pushed around by the
outside universe and
being unable to make your own choices.
This simply isn't the case. We
are as much, if not more "determined" by our own
personalities, our moods, our
senses, our internal biology and psychology than we are by
forces external to
Believing in free is a mental trick that gives us the
ability to see
our selves as agents. It means we try to take control of our
actions instead of
letting the world control us. It allows us to be determined
from within and not
just from without.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> possible
source of quote
-- anom, 23:28:12 11/02/02 Sat
I don't know if he originated it,
but I once saw Isaac Bashevis Singer on TV (probably PBS)
talking to a classroom
full of kids (Catholic school, maybe?). Anyway, one of them
asked him if he
believed in free will or predestination. He gave the example
of someone who
believes in predestination crossing the street & seeing
a truck coming at
them, out of control. Do they stand there, saying, "well, I
predestined to be killed by this truck"? No, they try to run
from it. So you
see, he said, we have to believe in free will. We have no
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
possible source of
quote -- Masq, 08:39:55 11/03/02 Sun
Even though it was our
genetic instinct for survival unencumbered by depression or
low-self esteen that
was really determiing our actions in that situation.
[> One point -- Doug the Bloody, 14:52:31
Ok, I like this theory, but wouldn't giving Cordelia an urge
someone be a pretty big violation of their free will? I
don't think the powers
*can* do that. They can send messengers like Whistler or
Skip, but they can't
just rewire everybody's brains to make their plans work. So
I think that Cordy
trusting Connor came from her natural emotions.
[> [> Re: One point -- Masq, 15:07:33
In my episode analysis of "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" I
put the point
a bit differently. I dont think the PTB's "inserted" a trust
for Connor in
What I think may have happened, and I'm running on
pure speculation here, is that while she still had her
memory, they told her
things about Connor that were in addition to the things she
already knew about
him. Maybe they told her the reason he was born, what
destiny they HOPE he will
fulfill, or what kind of person Holtz brought him up to
Anyway, Cordelia doesn't remember being told that anymore,
but she still retains the feelings that knowledge invoked in
her. Maybe she felt
very good and proud of him at the time she was told this.
She would still retain
those feelings even though her memories of events have been
what Cordelia is acting on are her own feelings--she just
doens't know where
they're coming from.
And I think whatever knowledge of Connor she's
forgetting has to be something big and special, because
otherwise, she would
have retained a "natural" trust of Angel and the others, and
she needed some
convincing in that department.
[> [> [> Re: One point -- Rufus, 16:36:11
I think a part of Cordy remembers that "glowy intervention"
she did on
Connor....she felt love and compassion for a lost boy. I
think that memory of
how lost and alone he had been left a mark that she may not
remember in detail
but still is there.
[> [> [> [> Re: One point -- Masq,
That explains her emotional connection to him as a person,
not why she would trust him. And she did say she trusted
him, based on less than
Angel and the others did for her.
And plus, the emotional memory of the
glowy healing of Connor thing was also that moment Connor
tried to kill her. She
could retain a sort of primal fear of him from that moment
as well. But she
[> [> [> [> [> Re: One point -- Rufus,
And I think that's all part and parcel of the soul
colonic she gave Connor. I think she connected with him in a
way that goes
beyond simple compassion...I think she saw into him long
enough to see past the
confusion and the anger to the potential trying to get out
past Holtz's mind
[> [> [> [> [> [> A point and a
half -- Rufus,
17:05:30 11/01/02 Fri
From the Shooting Script for
Then you must go to him.
reacts to that, recoils. Wasn't expecting
Walk in his world. Learn
can. Discover what of him may be in
you -- that you may always
Connor looks into his father's eyes. Not one to
disobey. He nods. He will do as he's instructed.
But be on your guard. Remember what
I've taught you. The devil
you bright things. Many colours...
INT. SEEDY MOTEL ROOM
Connor's stunned and grief stricken by the things Holtz is
to him. Holtz is trying to comfort him.
When I saw you with
him tonight, I
think I saw you for the first time.
In that instant, I
realized what it
is you're meant to be.
No. But you will.
Go back to him,
No. I don't want to. I don't want
You already have, son. It's what
brought you here.
It's where you
Don't you see? It was your
need for him which drove you across
I don't need him.
Holtz smiles a little
sadly. More than a little.
I wish that were true. I wish
could be my boy forever.
Connor stares, stunned, flayed, cut
Why are you doing this? Why? Don't
My darling boy. It is because I love
you that I do
God gave me to you...
Yes. It was
God's plan for us to be
together. Nothing will ever persuade
But if I try to keep you apart now,
you would only
end up hating me. And
that I will not have.
And you're the bastard son of
Then I'm a demon.
not. God help me I don't know
what you are -- except the finest
I have ever known.
How can I come from them and not
one of them?
There is a reason. There are
Go and find them out.
No. You told me not to be
but you've let yourself be deceived!
So I do hate you! I do. If
me go back there I'll only ever hate
If I could stop it, I would, son.
You have to believe that.
were brought here by forces beyond
You're wrong. You're wrong.
Connor sets his
jaw. Furious now. He backs away, then bolts to the door and
Lorne starts toward the stairs. Connor doesn't
Lorne starts to go. Behind
I'm not going anywhere with
Lorne stops. Can't help but react. Little
(tries to keep it
Tell ya what, since
you were raised
in a hell dimension by a psychopath,
and since that's a
topic I happen to
know a little something about --
we'll just let that
fetch your pop for ya.
He starts to go again... but
coming down the stairs.
Actually, that's Uncle Filthy
to you. Wasn't that long ago -- like
a week -- that I was changing
diapers, you little --
Hey, hey. What's the
She positions herself between a pissed off Lorne and a
Connor. Connor just stares at Lorne.
Steven... I know you
haven't been in
this world very long, and I imagine
things were pretty
Wild West-y out
where you're from... but Lorne's a
It's a demon.
He is. But "demon"
doesn't always mean "evil" in this
dimension. I mean,
look at me --
Whoops -- that got his attention. He does in fact look at
Well, I'm part demon. Yeah. By
did it so I could help
And so that the back of my
wouldn't explode. I know it's gonna
take a little getting used to,
And whip-fast he grabs her by the throat, twists her around.
FLASH of metal as he brings up his BLADE, and as it slashes
down at her
INT. ANGEL'S HOTEL - LOBBY - NIGHT
The knife slices down...
Cordy's hand comes up... and catches Connor's wrist.
Cordelia and Connor hold
eye contact. He's clearly shaken by her sudden speed and
strength. Her grip is
And now her eyes start to GLOW WHITE. The LIGHT spreads,
goes up her arm and into his arm. To his hand. Wraps around
the metal blade and
turns it to jelly or mercury.
But things don't stop there. The LIGHT
GROWS. Spreading into Connor. Cordelia's and Connor's eyes
Lorne watches, amazed as Cordelia's WHITE LIGTH infuses the
boy. But the thing that passes between them isn't just some
CGI effect. There is
communication in the locked look between them. She seems to
be connecting with
him on some raw, complete level.
He looks so sad. And so does she,
feeling everything that he's feeling, knowing just exactly
what she's flushing
out of him as this happens.
Let it go, honey. You don't
that. You don't need any of that.
That's right. Just let it go,
He seems to relax or give in or give up. Finally the WHITE
seems to center in Connor, then SNAP!, it leaves him like a
spirit. He shivers
and shakes, looks to Cordelia in wonder and confusion...
then collapses utterly
in her arms, weeping like a baby.
She holds him close. Comforts
Shhh. It's okay, sweetie. That's
I know. It's okay.
The kid's in shock. Sweating and shivering. Cordelia
rocks him gently. She looks over his shoulder to see --
ANGEL standing on
the stairs. It's unclear just how much of this he's
SHORT TIME CUT TO:
Are in the office. She looks almost as
shaken as Connor does. Angel is full of concern for the both
How do you feel?
Okay. A little
drained, but okay.
Lorne enters, looks at
Well, you have got some serious mojo
girl. Whatever deal you
struck with The Powers -- looks to me
gave you the full package,
all the extras. That boy was tox-ic
walked in here tonight.
Heavy on the "ick."
(to both of
What happened out there?
In my professional opinion
-- ? Miss
demony-britches here gave that child
some kind of soul colonic.
him out but good.
It was that place. Quor-toth. It'd
every part of him. He was
When Fred was taking her
He nearly broke the needle. My
wouldn't get so much as
a click off him now.
going to be okay?
Well, he's young. So -- no.
looks to Connor sitting silently nursing his tea, then to
Cordelia. He kneels
down in front of her, puts his hand on hers.
Thank you for doing this
She gives a wan, sad smile. He
returns it, starts to rise, she holds him back for a beat as
it occurs to
(he looks at her)
I know what it was
like for him
there. So much pain, so much
confusion. He thought it was
he belonged, that it was home. He's
from her to Connor sitting out there alone.
Cordy may have given
Connor a soul colonic, but Holtz had a fathers love that was
able to twist the
boy to his own end. But Cordy had been able to feel exactly
what made Connor
tick, past the manipulative stuff Holtz had planted, to the
boy who was afraid
and felt that as he was part-demon the Hell dimension was
where he deserved to
be. Because she understood Connor in a way no other could,
Coryd woud have an
inherent trust for the boy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A point and
increment -- pr10n, 19:27:13 11/01/02 Fri
Theme Check: You
just reminded me of Anyanka and d'Hoffryn, and the power of
Holtz takes vulnerable (ok infant, but go with me) and makes
him part of the family. He renames Connor "Steven." Then
Holtz sends Steven back
to destroy his enemies.
Renaming for control and power: d'Hoffryn renames
Aud and controls her; when her amulet is destroyed she is
Liam becomes Angelus, and then Angel. William becomes Spike,
then what? [NOT Sparky]. Miss Kitty Fantastico becomes
Dawn... whoa there,
But you see where I'm going -- when someone gets renamed in
Jossverse it means something powerful is going on.
Any other examples?
I'm sure there are obvious ones. Oh wait: Rupert becomes
Ripper, and then Giles.
Maybe there are more?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But Buffy
is always just
Buffy -- Vickie, 14:22:17 11/02/02 Sat
At least, so says
Joyce in S5, when she calls Dawn "little pumpkin belly".
Buffy, whatever changes
she goes through, doesn't go through this one. She is
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
oops, except when she's
Anne -- Vickie, 14:24:29 11/02/02 Sat
Even then, Anne is her
own middle name, and she takes it on herself. No one renames
[> [> [> Or it was the honesty. -- Doug the
Cordelia has always been a person who liked the truth;
just witness how tactless she used to be, or how in
"Earshot" her thoughts
matched her words completely. So I don't find it all that
hard to believe that
she wouldn't like being lied to. Angel had good intentions
for wanting to take
it slow with the information but I can't blame Cordy for
flipping over everyone
creeping around and being completely obvious about the fact
that they aren't
Then she gets attacked in the hotel and is saved by
Connor, so she want's to leave (this is after Angel and the
others, who she
already knew had been lying to her, had forbid her to leave
the hotel.) And
Connor tells her the truth, he tells her quite plainly that
he sunk Angel and
held a knife to her throat. He may not say much; but he
doesn't lie to her, and
he answers most of the questions that she asks.
character, I don't think we need to resort to mystic glowy
workings or hidden
revelations to explain this. That doesn't preclude either of
these of course,
but her behaviour can be chalked up to her personality as
was the one to warn Angel to never lie to his son.
[> [> [> [> Good idea! -- Masq,
17:01:53 11/01/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> I'm adding this to my episode
analysis -- Masq,
17:09:44 11/01/02 Fri
Sometimes the simplest explanation really
is the right one. : )
[> [> [> [> Agree -- alcibiades,
09:28:36 11/02/02 Sat
Cordelia was the one to warn Angel to never lie to his
I agree with this, in fact, I think I posted the same point
earlier this week.
In any case, the point is also about Angel not just
Angel has lied to the two people closest to him and in both
the result has been that he has lost those very people that
he craves the
closest relation with.
And in both cases too, he goes against good
advice, first from Cordy, then from Fred, to tell the truth.
The advice was out
there and he rejects it.
This is a deeply ingrained faultline in Angel
-- although whether it is more driven by hubris or fear, or
is just a left over
propensity from Liam, or some other option, is hard to tell
The Connor lie seems driven by the desire for revenge - the
revenge that sent him to murder Wesley, the Cordy lie seems
driven by fear of
rejection because of his special circumstances. In any case,
in these kinds of
crisis situations, Angel falls back on half truths and lies.
invariably lead to trouble. Yet it is a problem he can't
seem to break himself
BTW, Connor does explicitly lie to Cordelia in one scene,
but in a
way that kind of sucks up to her, so she doesn't question
it, which is a sign of
the old Cordy ego at work.
Cordelia asks why Connor was at the hotel,
Connor replies that he saw she had returned. In fact, he was
there for no such
reason, but to further scope out the hotel and his father's
happened to walk in on her arrival fortuitously.
[> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22-
speculation) -- yabyumpan, 17:03:57 11/01/02 Fri
agree with the Angel/Cordy perfect happiness thing, I've
posted a few times
about that since 'Tomorrow' first aired and also posted
something similar re:
Connor/Cordy a few days ago in response to Rob's thread
(although you probably
didn't read that Masq as it had future spoilers in) (no,
they weren't about the
Cordy/Connor connection). Over at Stranger Things it's
something we've been
discussing for some time (not all shipper boards are lame).
There's also been
speculation that that the C/C connection isn't recent. In
'Offspring', Cordy was
the last person Darla fed off of before she 'gave birth' and
the visions Cordy
had at the time were different from usual, including a
Darla/Angelus when she had the vision/dream at the hotel
which told her that the
baby had a soul. I think that the destinies of Cordy, Connor
and Angel are all
tied together and that we'll see where that leads this
PTSY and Angel's summer retreat, I figure that even if the
PTSY knew what Connor
had planned, they probably thought better to have their
'Champion' out of action
for a few months than have the return of Angelus.
Re: Cordy not
'deserving' higher being status, while I agree that the
whole assension thing
was lame, the suggestion that Cordy is in no way worthy
really grates. While I'm
not suggesting that Cordy should be a 'higher being', she
has been 'fighting the
good fight' as long as Xander and Willow, maybe with many
cutting remarks and
complaints in Sunnyhell but she still did it. Over the past
3 years she has put
up with ever worsening visions, refusing to give them up,
twice, even though
they were killing her and eventually agreed to be made part-
demon, to give up
part of her humanity, to allow her to carry on the work. I
that's a huge deal, esp as she did it not knowing what the
effects might be,
even checking for horns and a tail when she woke up, which
while she obviously
didn't want them, it was something she was prepared to
accept. She has also put
up with a lot of physical torments: impregnated with demon
torture by the priests in Pylea (even though that was almost
played for laughs),
sent crazy by Vocah in TSILA, the physical manifestations in
TVT....It does seem
that some people are stuck with the version of Cordelia from
grown a lot and come a long way since then.
Sorry for the rant, but the
suggestion that she is in no way worthy of special
consideration by the PTB, the
calls of 'what has she ever done to deserve it' and the
ignoring of all that
she's been through and done over the past 6 years, press's
my buttons. As I
said, no, I don't like the idea of her being a higher being
but I do think she
is deserving of at least as much respect as Xander,something
she rarely get's
(at least on this board)
[> [> Higher Being Material -- Finn Mac Cool,
I think a lot of it comes from the fact that there are
who have done just as much and given just as much as
Cordelia, in some cases
more, and have never gotten this offer to be a higher being.
Why did Cordelia
become higher being canidate material and not some of the
other heroic people
[> [> [> The PTB have their reasons that reason
suspect... -- tricky_d, 02:32:42 11/02/02 Sat
Ok, forgive the
butchery of Pascal. But the sentiment holds. the PTB are
notoriously fickle in
their choice of where, when, and how to act on behalf of
humanity. I am of the
opinion that Cordy has grown perhaps more than any
single person in the
Whedonverse. Consider that Buffy has always done just what
she was designed to
do (death is her gift); Willow has shown that she
cannot be trusted with
the power of being a Ascended being; Xander--great as he is-
problems that exclude him as a candidate for ascension; Wes
also cannot be
trusted; Angel is a formerly viscious murderer atoning for
crimes; Fred and Gunn
are sweet and tough but also not really all that effectual
when alone;get where
I am going with this? Cordy has fought her whole life, and
ok she comes off
shallow at times, but she makes the right choices, she loves
people as they are,
she doesn't have a malicious bone in her body (not since the
we saw in The Wish), she simply is a good, brave,
She is the female counterpart to the Grossalugg.
"kill-first-talk-later" Buffy can't show up tracking Lorne,
in a case of
mistaken identity or something. I would love to see Cordy
have a go at the
Buffster, god would B be surpised.
All ranting aside, the only other
thing PTB could have done is nabb Angel, but then who would
have gone to get the
Axis--since you sort of have to be dead to do the whole my-
thing that Angel did.
In addition to the above, one should carefully note
the imagery we are given at the Beginning of season 4. Cordy
is above, Angel is
"deep down" and who is on earth between them? Connor. It is
clear to me that
Conner holds the key in getting the two star crossed lovers
Something tells meet that Conner really is their child.
Given to Darla by the
grace of the PTB, taken to Q to train with Holz, with the
PTB intending all
along to use for good what Holz had done out of Malice. But
that is just my
[> [> Mea culpa, yabyumpan -- Scroll,
20:55:50 11/02/02 Sat
I'll admit I've been harsh on Cordelia in the past. I've
that I don't think she deserves to be a Higher Being. But
not because she
isn't a good, strong, selfless, warrior for the PTB. Or that
she is somehow
inferior to Willow or Xander or Buffy. I guess my main
complaint has always been
that I can't buy the concept of a Higher Being in the
first place, so
when ME made Cordy a Higher Being, I can't trust this as
true or believable. The
very idea makes me cringe.
I'm very sorry, yabyumpan, if I've ever made
it seem like I don't like Cordelia, cuz I really do. I was
so happy to see her
again in "Slouching".
[> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22-
speculation) -- Malandanza, 13:23:37 11/02/02 Sat
one of these folks who thinks the PTB's are all-powerful and
can read the hearts
and minds of human beings...
"I think if they did suspect Connor was
being duplicitous with his warming-up-to-dad thing, they
betrayal would come too late to prevent Angel from losing
his soul. So they
Maybe they can't exactly see into the hearts and minds
of people, but they do have an ability to divine the future,
or, at least, a
possible future -- Cordelia's visions are just such
glimpses. I think they did
know what Connor was planning and knew that if Cordelia
arrived, that future
would be altered. For whatever reason the PTSWY wanted Angel
to spend the summer
in a box at the bottom of the ocean, so they waylaid
Cordelia for that purpose.
And to a certain extent, I think that time in the isolation
good for Angel. He was riding high. After using dark majicks
and making deals
with W&H demons his life was looking pretty good --
Connor was back, Sahjin
was imprisoned and Cordelia and Angel were about to confess
their secret love
for one another. Not much of a punishment for a Champion who
has drifted back
into moral ambiguity. Angel emerged from the box with a
renewed sense of purpose
(as seen by his Champion speech to Connor). They needed a
pretext to send
Cordelia back after Angel had gotten the message (without
making themselves look
manipulative) -- they had to know that if Cordelia was
allowed to watch her
friends and given the ability to interfere, at some point
she would do so. She
was officious before she became omniscient.
Grammar and the Hellmouth -- tim, 09:51:10
This is something that I've wondored about for a while, and
appreciate everyone's input. My apologies if this has come
up before; it's not
something that's easy to look up in the archives. So here's
the thing: is
Sunnydale located on the Hellmouth or only
Going back to the first episode, Giles defines the Hellmouth
as "a confluence of mystical energy." Theoretically
speaking, couldn't there be
more than one of these confluences? After all, just because
the Monongahela and
Allegheny Rivers conflue (or whatever the verb form would
be) in Pittsburgh, PA,
that doesn't keep the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers from
confluing (for a post
about grammar, I'm taking a lot of license here) in Cairo,
IL. I know they
always call it "the Hellmouth" on the show, but it seems to
me that this could
be because it's the Hellmouth most relevant to their lives,
like when one refers
to "the grocery store" or "the barber shop." It's not that
you think that your
grocery store is the only one that exists; it's just the
only one in your
current frame of reference.
On the other hand, that first episode is
entitled Welcome to the Hellmouth. Not conclusive, but
definitely a sign of what
Joss is thinking. And we've never heard hide nor hair of any
anywhere else. As it's beginning to appear that this is a
point for the unfolding season (unspoiled speculation on my
part), what do
people think? Is Sunnydale's the only one, or are there
[> In The Wish, -- Sophist, 10:06:39 11/01/02
Wishverse Giles says that Sunnydale is located on "a"
Hellmouth. I'm not sure
whether this answers your question, though. There are lots
problems with that episode.
[> [> You beat me to it! Darn my slow
connection! -- Arethusa,
10:14:53 11/01/02 Fri
[> [> [> Does this mean I get to choose the next
Sophist, 12:48:23 11/01/02 Fri
I'll take Law in the Buffyverse
[> [> [> [> LOL -- Arethusa, 13:36:18
[> Re: Grammar and the Hellmouth -- Arethusa,
In "The Wish," Giles telephones Buffy's Watcher in Cleveland
says, "Well, it happens, you know, that, that Sunnydale is
Hellmouth. (listens) It, it is so!"
So, there might be more.
[> Sunnydale is the only hellmouth we told about!
10:29:12 11/01/02 Fri
[> A hellmouth -- alcibiades, 11:44:06 11/01/02
think of it as one of several hellmouths. There are plenty
of Celtic ones.
In and around NYC, people refer to NY as "the city." That
there is only one city -- and even NYers know that in their
hearts. It is just a
major reference point -- a major hellmouth, not the only
case, all the hellmouths are no doubt connected on some
plane. Remember the
passage door from Willow back to the Hellmouth in
[> [> Cordy Says... -- tricky_d, 12:17:01
in City Of Angel Cordy says,
"What, you think I don't know
a vampire when I see one? I'm from Sunnydale we had our
which seems to imply that there is more than one.
[> [> [> And in the third episode, "The Witch,"
Giles says... --
Rob, 12:43:36 11/01/02 Fri
..."that's part of the thrill of
living on a Hellmouth."
Again "a," not "the."
[> [> [> [> Buffy DB online disagrees...
13:19:33 11/01/02 Fri
GILES: But that's the thrill of living on the Hellmouth!
veritable cornucopia of, of fiends and devils and, and
ghouls to engage.
(everyone looks at him) Pardon me for finding the glass half
[> [> [> [> [> And speaking of the Buffy
DB -- ZachsMind,
14:07:13 11/01/02 Fri
I tried using it to find every use of the
word "Hellmouth" so we could do a comparison, but it's
frozen up on me. I may
not be the only person who thought about doing that. This is
what I grabbed
before the DB went into lag purgatory.
References to Hellmouth
BUFFY: Welcome to the Hellmouth Petting Zoo. (Dead Man's
...that's the thrill of living on the Hellmouth! (The
SNYDER: We're on
a Hellmouth. Sooner or later, people are gonna figure that
out. (I Only Have
Eyes for You)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Just checked the
original shooting script
for "The Witch". It says "a" Hellmouth. -- Rob,
16:08:57 11/01/02 Fri
[> Hellmouth, Hellmouth, who's got the Hellmouth?
13:28:15 11/01/02 Fri
What the previous posters said...plus, as
I'm sure has been mentioned before at some point in the
historically (well, mythologically anyhow), hellmouths were
from the multiple entrances of Greek myth (Homer mentions
two in his obscure
little epics, I believe, and there were others in Greek
myth. You just had to
know the right path) to the rather vague topography of
Egyptain myth to the
medieval passion plays where Hellmouths were a dime a dozen.
The hellmouth -- in
my interpretation -- wasn't necessarily the
equivalent of the Gates of
Hell. It had a certain metaphysical force to it, a dynamism
that the Gates
lacked. The hellmouth, as in the Buffyverse, was actually an
damnation onto the mortal plane. It was (and again, this is
interpretation) more a conduit from earth to hell than a
barrier set down right
outside hell. Which is not to say that it was considered
sentient in any way
except in terms of being controlled by the devil.
Metaphorical though it might
be to us moderners, it had a certain very vivid reality to
Especially the laypeople who spent their time designing
hellmouth sets and
attending rather morbid plays that used them. Originally,
decorated with demons and the like, but as the plague years
took a grip on the
later middle ages (the era of the danse macabre and the
heyday of the
inquisition and its focus on all-too-human evils), the
transisted into symbols of mortality: corpses, skeletons, et
cetera. Okay, I'm
just writing to avoid work right now and have veered far
from the original
question. So, in summation, the hellmouth is not necessarily
plural, but given
its nature as (in my interpretion of medieval thought) an
extrusion of rather
than merely the portal to, hell, it seems reasonable that
there would be more
than one. After all, we can't have every would-be Faust,
Orpheus, and Thor
coming to Sunnydale just to find hell. It would be like
additional note, however. I seem to recall that several
monsters came to
Sunnydale specifically to seek out its Hellmouth (the
Master, for one, and it
seems reasonable that this is why Balthazar et al came too),
so Hellmouths must
be pretty rare. Why travel to the New World if you have
another Hellmouth a
couple minor European countries over? Uggh, Now I'm gonna be
puzzling over this
all evening and, it being Friday, will probably be mixing
alcohol with my
ponderings. Not a safe combination.
[> [> I think there's a Hellmouth in Las Vegas
13:58:11 11/01/02 Fri
No proof from the BtVS standpoint - we just
attract a lot of bizarro types. Plus, we're like the closest
major city to Area
51 and all that super-top-secret-governement-stuff.
[> Re: Grammar and the Hellmouth -- Finn Mac Cool,
I think we must first consider what "Hellmouth"
From several comments made by Giles, we know that there is a
metaphysical boundry between our universe and the Hell
Hellmouth was described as a point where this barrier
keeping Hell from
literally pouring into Earth is at its weakest. It stands to
reason that there
could be other Hellmouths, but that maybe they've vanished
with time and are
considered quaint relics of the past. Another possibility is
that a Hellmouth is
like an urban legend to those familiar with the supernatural
They know that it is (meta)physically possible for there to
be such a place in
the world where the barrier between us and Hell is paper
thin, but there's never
been any definite proof that one actually exists. Kind of
like life on other
planets. I think this last theory is backed up by the fact
that in The Wish,
Giles has to convince another Watcher that Sunnydale is on a
Hellmouth (so it's
obviously not common knowledge, at least not in the
Wishverse). And, in Welcome
to the Hellmouth, he mentions discovering instances of
gathering in Sunnydale by looking back through old town
records. This suggests
that Giles actually discovered the Hellmouth through
research, and that
previously the Council of Watchers was unaware of it.
[> [> Hellmouth vs. Dimensional Portal --
What is the difference between a hellmouth and a
According to Anya in Blood Ties, "There are thousands
of demon [i.e. hell] dimensions. All different." Giles adds
that they are "all
pushing at the edges of this reality, trying to find a way
in." So which hell
dimension is the Sunnydale hellmouth tied to? Or is it tied
Is the hellmouth like a dimensional portal? In Over The
Rainbow on AtS - one such portal (leading to Pylea) is a
"hot spot" where the
psychic energy is tied to a geographical location and allows
people to cross to
another dimension. Possibly a hell dimension.
This is opposed to the
passageway Sahjhan opened to Quortoth in "Forgiving" which
used powerful magic
to rip a hole through reality itself. Also different from
the portal opened by
Dawn as The Key - which was supposed to tear apart reality
and the walls that
seperate all the hell dimensions.
We've seen other ways to cross between
dimensions - some demons seem to possess the skill
naturally, sometimes its
magical, and even death seems to be just a passage of the
soul from one
dimension to another. What's so special or unique about the
thing that is in
Sunnydale? It seems to be one of the big unanswered
questions on AtVS. Since all
the foreshadowy clues seem to point to the hellmouth in
season 7, maybe we'll
get some answers.
Personally, I like the theory I read several weeks ago
that the hellmouth is a living being of some kind. If alive,
how does it feed,
[> definately "a" Hellmouth -- Sheri, 15:28:24
There must be more than one hellmouth because we've seen
multiple locations. If Sunnydale had the only Hellmouth in
existence, than why
wouldn't the two slayers that we saw in FFL have been in
Sunnydale. Instead, we
see them in China and New York... so something about
those places made it
necessary for the Slayer to be there instead of in
MY question is: if there is more than one Hellmouth... why
doesn't the CoW have
the Slayer do a tour of duty between all of them?
About all I can come up
with is that although there is more than one hellmouth, only
one is active (or
extremely active) at any given time.
I'm picturing the hellmouths being
like geizers or volcanoes... all this baddy badness from the
demon rhelm starts
building up pressure, and badness starts to spew. Sunnydale
is like Old
Faithful... it's not the only hellmouth around... but it's
probably the most
popular for the badies at the given moment.
Demons, Humans and the Souled -- Deb, 12:48:34
I had a dream this morning. If humans with souls can act
intent, and we all know people like this, then why can't
demons act with good
intentions? We've seen friendly demons, helpful demons,
and demons who act with good intent. (Please, nobody throw
in "The road to hell
is paved with good intentions." ) Demons are fallen angels,
and there is a
hierarchy even here. Much of what we learn as being "good"
and "bad" is
imprinted within our personality by the age of six. The
remains, basically, the same.
So we have one "good soul" (i.e. William
stating he might be a bad poet but he is a good man.) And
put a lower in the
hierarchy, low-esteemed demon inside, and what do you get?
also reading through the archives a bit and came across
something from 2000.
Now, if I can remember what. . . Ah! Spike killing two
slayers and "death
I am of the belief that William was in no way happy about
vamped, and I don't believe that Spike's keen insight into
human nature arises
from the demon but from the imprinting upon William's
personality. Even bloody
bad poets are self-aware and "watchers" of human nature.
Spike's comment that
all Slayers have a death wish, and his killing of two
slayers might not be an
act of "evil" so much as making room for a Slayer who does
not relish the hunt
and the kill. If a Slayer relishes the hunt and kill, then
the very qualities
that go into a Slayer are nullified, and the Slayer is no
longer performing a
"service" or "calling" but has become a hunter, and a "evil"
killer in her own
right. The Slayer, like the hunter, cannot cherish the kill
for killing sake
lest the hunted turn on the Slayer and become the
died, Buffy sat on the steps outside and was crying,
mourning the death and loss
of her mother. Spike was coming to kill her, but when he
sees her grieving, he
sits down, pats her on the back, and just sits quietly.
Buffy is not exhibiting
a "death wish" here, but is mourning a death.
changing topics a bit, Spike kept the scar that the first
slayer he killed gave
him and he kept the black duster of the second slayer.
Everyone seems to believe
that these are trophies, but what if they are examples of
with the Slayers? He's putting on the costume of a slayer.
Thus, Spike shares
the death wish and the calling of the Slayer. The
personality cannot stop the
demon from feeding, but it can force the demon to wait until
meal is found. Spike can't harm humans, but he can harm
demons, and the only
demons he meets up with are "evil." So he get to play the
role of slayer
alongside the Slayer herself. Of all the characters, Spike
probably knows the
most about what a slayer is and what a slayer is not.
[> Many many many disagreements -- Charlemagne20,
Personally Joss has been quite clear on his demon policy as
Demons are Drawn to evil the way humans are drawn towards
Good. Roughly that means perchantage wise there probably is
an even number of
demons who are 'good' as we have in our society demons who
The Buddist Demon that Angel kills in Season 2 who was a
'good demon' was for instance the equivalent of Charles
Manson or Jeffery
Dahlmer for demons.
I peronally disgaree also with the 'by 6 years old'
point as a psychology major. We change a great deal, usually
by six though we
have a set environment that we cling to and our personality
very distinct difference
Next Spike was in fact EXTREMELY GIDDY JOY
JUMPING happy about being Vamped. Angel was the one who
seemed to loath being a
Vampire, it just led him to greater acts of carnage against
Spike loved Drucilla, he finally got revenge on his critics
(railroad spike through the skull), and many other nutty
killed the Slayers I think because he suffers from pressure
of society, like
with the Scoobies Spike needs a pack to operate around and
the respect of
He got respect from Vampires by killing Slayers.
note Demons in the Buffyverse are 'several' at the least
removed from being
fallen angels. The First corrupted the original Demon
peoples but they've more
or less incarnated into evil since then
[> [> Re: Many many many disagreements --
Purple Tulip, 14:59:37
"Next Spike was in fact EXTREMELY GIDDY JOY JUMPING
happy about being Vamped. Angel was the one who seemed to
loath being a Vampire,
it just led him to greater acts of carnage against
disagree with you here. Angel only loathed being a vampire
after he got his
soul--before that he was the extremely giddy one about being
a vamp. And Spike
did not seek out being vamped, but once he was he too
enjoyed it, but now that
he's got the soul we see that that's all changed, that he's
very much in pain
and conflict with himself.
Also, in Deb's initial post, she said that
Buffy sat on her porch when Joyce died and Spike came to
kill her but ended up
comforting her. Actually, that all happened at the end of
Fool for Love when
Buffy first learned that her mother was sick, not during The
Body when she
[> What Joss said about the Soul -- Rufus,
Paley Festival, March 30, 2001
Audience Member: "I'd like to know what
your definition of a soul is? And what distinguishes Angel
from the other
vampires, because it becomes clear from both Buffy and Angel
that vampires have
human emotions and human attachments. So is that a
conscience? And then what
separates vampires from humans if it is a conscience?"
JW: "Um, very
little. (laugh) Essentially, souls are by their nature
amorphous but to me it's
really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we
hope, are guided by,
'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most
demons are guided
simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they
believe in causing it,
they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe
in good. So they
can love someone, they can attach to someone, they can
actually want to do
things that will make that person happy in the way they know
they would. The way
Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on
Buffy, is getting
more and more completely conflicted. But basically his
natural bent is towards
doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as
in most humans, most
humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it. I
believe it's kind of
like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by
opposite directions. But
they're all sort of somewhere in the middle."
[> confused episode -- Robert, 19:44:02
>>> When Joyce died, Buffy sat on the steps
outside and was
crying, mourning the death and loss of her mother. Spike was
coming to kill her,
but when he sees her grieving, he sits down, pats her on the
back, and just sits
I believe that you are referring to Fool For Love.
However, Joyce was not dead. At the end of this episode,
Joyce revealed to Buffy
that she was going into the hospital because a shadow was
found on her CT scan.
Buffy sat on the rear stoop and weeped. Spike arrived with
the intent of killing
her with a shotgun, but took pity instead. Joyce wasn't dead
until the end of
I Was Made To Love You.
[> Re: Demons, Humans and the Souled -- Deb,
When one can not step out of the "world view" of an artistic
creator and find other meanings of value based upon one's
own schema, then
criticism is digresively disguised as obsession. The funtion
of criticism is to
find new meanings within a text to expand knowledge within a
field of study. If
one limits self to a creator's paradigm or model of a
fictional world, then all
we have is fandom and worship of the creator. This disturbs
me sometimes when
some people do not seem to be able to escape the ever
changing (kind of like the
school's basement) "rules" as laid out by JW. This is ironic
in that a good deal
of the show is about the benefits of research and the
critical thinking that is
needed in ambiguous situations. The show practically opens
its arms and begs
viewers to think for themselves, yet most always return to
what JW "currently
says." Does this mean that I cannot present my own
interpretation, for group
consideration, of a Van Gogh painting, or a Edgar Allen Poe
short story, because
I do not know what the creator intended to communicate? I
don't think Buffy or
Angel are about "following" but about "leading." This is
demonstrated when the
characters step out of the preconceived roles that JW
originally created by
making decisions and taking actions that change that
not meant as bashing anyone. It is just something to think
shows have their personal uses and gratifications for
people, but to escape
within a fantasy with no powers of critical reasoning is
escapist at the very
[> [> Re: Demons, Humans and the Souled --
Maybe if you were a bit more specific about what you
think any of us said. I gave you a direct quote from an
interview with Joss at
the Paley festival......that quote can be take a few diffent
ways. That of
course leaving the writers with the out of saying we told
you so already. That
fact that Joss speaks of behavior, even soulless demon
behavior existing along a
spectrum leaves a whole lotta wiggle room for the
personality of the person who
once was to shine through. It just leaves them less likely
to be able to behave
in ways that soulled beings would consider right.
[> [> Hermeneutics -- Sophist, 07:45:20
Just thought I'd throw in a fancy word to catch everyone's
We've talked a lot here about the problems of
I think everyone here acknowledges that each individual is
free to interpret an
episode, or the whole series, pretty much however he/she
wants. You can expect,
though, that others will disagree with you.
Such disagreement isn't
intended to disparage your interpretation or to substitute
"fandom" in place of
interpretation. It's intended to generate discussion about
various issues: what
qualifies as "evidence" in the discussion and why; what
interpretation are being employed; what life experiences
lead to this
Probably everyone here has a slightly different view
about the importance of authorial intent. Some, if I
understand correctly, give
it no weight at all. Others give it a great deal. My own
view is that we can't
ignore the author's intent, but that it's never controlling.
I'd like to come up
with a clever numerical scale for our varying degrees of
belief in authorial
intent, but I can't. Maybe OnM can help me out here.
Stepping out of the
worldview of the artist, as you urge, is itself an
interpretive choice. There is
no right or wrong to it. Nor should it disturb you if others
choose not to do so
in a particular case. Don't worry -- they undoubtedly will
another time and you
can gleefully point it out.
[> [> [> Exactly -- Rahael, 08:16:12
I tend to value authorial intent quite highly simply because
I want to
see what the author sees - I don't want to miss anything.
But I also overlay
authorial intent with my own readings, readings which I
value highly because
that's what resonated with me, that's what gave it meaning
btw, I'd also have to say that it's my belief that those who
intent are not sheep afraid of the brave new worlds of
complexity and multiple
Now I'll have to say that I disagreed quite strongly
with Deb's initial post. Not because I stick religiously to
what Joss says about
souls - since the entire metaphysics of souls and whatnot in
strikes me as confused and sometimes meaningless -
but because I was
puzzled that even when Spike was murdering someone he was
amazing sensitive poetic side to himself?
He was doing them a favour?
when he covered himself with the Chinese SLayers blood as an
then had sex with Drusilla? Guess he knew more about the
intimate desires and wants than this viewer.
[> [> [> [> Re: Exactly -- Deb,
12:14:35 11/02/02 Sat
"Now I'll have to say that I disagreed quite strongly with
post. Not because I stick religiously to what Joss says
about souls - since the
entire metaphysics of souls and whatnot in the Buffyverse
strikes me as confused
and sometimes meaningless -"
I was not commenting on any person is
particular in my first post. What you state above is
absolutely correct. The
concept of the soul according to JW is "confused and
Yet, it is a concept that is very, very, important: the
vampire with a soul. So,
we are left to determine the role of the "soul" on our own,
and since a vamp.
having a soul is important in Buffyverse, just why is it
happens to a person's soul once they are turned? If they
were a "good" person
who met the qualifications of whatever religion to not be
sent to hell, what
happens to their soul? Do they go into a limbo, go to a
heaven, stay in the body
and so, maybe, have some influence over the demon?
It would help me
immensely is someone would tell me what this prophesy is
concerning a Slayer and
a vampire with a soul. (Which implies that the soul leaves
the body, and does
not remain to influence the demon.)
Any enlightenment would be
appreciated. Now I realize that the prophecy thing is a
creation of JW, but
everything else is left to whatever. I've been reading
vampire folklore, as
opposed to vampire fiction, and well before Stoker's
"Dracula" a person's soul
was changed into a demon who inhabited the body (and didn't
take really good
care of it either for that matter.) There were ritualistic
(killings) to safe-guard against vampires. Dig up a body and
if there were any
signs of "vampire" (which there were hundreds of signs) then
kill the corpse and
send the "soul/demon" to hell. Graveyards were only
temporary "resting" places
until it could be determined that a body was or was not
really a vampire demon.
There were some cases where whole graveyards were dug up and
killing was done. (During the day of course.) The body(ies)
was then destroyed
completely to ensure the demon had no place to live.
So if a vampire with
a soul is a "unusual" thing in Buffyverse, and JW does not
have an explanation
for where all the souls of the people turned are, and some
people consider JW's
concept of souls as being "meaningless" then where do the
souls go. A soul is
like energy. It can't be destroyed it can just be changed.
Also why, then, is a
vamp with a soul so important in Buffyverse?
My coming from a religious
background of "shoot first and don't bother answering
questions" has left me
As for the "possible" reason why Spike killed the two
slayers. I'm not saying it has much merit, but Nature has a
series of "checks
and balances." The Slayer is part of Nature. It's not the
Council, which is not
part of Nature but assists the Slayers, but what part of
Nature "checks and
balances" the Slayers when they become killers who lust for
the hunt and kill?
According to mythology, the hunted turn on the hunter and
the hunter becomes the
hunted. This could be taken a couple of ways.
1. Vampires turn on the
vampires who sired them.
2. Vampires turn on the Slayer when the Slayer
forgets her "calling" and lives for the hunt, so to speak.
When a Slayer lives
for the hunt, then there lies the truth of Slayers having a
"death wish." With a
death wish, the calling is lost, and the Slayer is no longer
These ideas were first presented, or questioned, on this
in 2000, but never really speculated upon because of JW
being the mind behind
[> [> [> [> [> Souls -- Sophist,
What happens to a person's soul once they are
We know from Angel (the episode) that the human soul does
remain in the body. It goes somewhere else, never specified.
Wherever it may be,
magic can call it back to the orginal body.
I'll leave the prophecy to
those who watch AtS.
I'm not saying it has much merit, but Nature has
a series of "checks and balances." The Slayer is part of
Nature. It's not the
Council, which is not part of Nature but assists the
Slayers, but what part of
Nature "checks and balances" the Slayers when they become
killers who lust for
the hunt and kill?
I don't see any reason to suppose that the concept
of natural selection (not "checks and balances") is at work
here. Slayers and
vampires appear to be mystical creations, not natural ones.
In any case, it
would be unlikely that the prey would "check" the hunter,
any more than the
gazelle would "check" the lion by killing it. It could
happen on occasion, but
that's not really how the competition works.
Nor would I take at face
value Spike's claim that the dead slayers "wanted" to die.
That may have been
Spike's perspective, and it may even be true, but the mere
fact that he said it
doesn't make it so.
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