November 2002 posts

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Joss' idea for what to do when "Buffy" ends. (not really spoilers, b/c no decision's been made yet) -- Rob, 07:36:06 11/01/02 Fri

Is Buffy's Loss Angel's Gain?
Friday, November 1, 2002

Word that Buffy the Vampire Slayer may get a stake in the heart at the end of the season could turn out to be good news for sister series Angel. Joss Whedon — the creator/exec producer of both shows — tells TV Guide Online that if Buffy ends its seven-year run in the spring, it's "very possible" some of the show's MVPs could make a permanent jump to Angel.

"I think it would be cool," says Whedon. "It's sort of exciting, because you have this universe and all these people and all of their juxtapositions. It's interesting — to me anyway. But until I know what's happening with Buffy — and Angel — I don't know who will go where."

The mere fact that Whedon's even looking ahead to a fifth season of Angel is rather remarkable in and of itself considering how bloody bad the spinoff's prospects looked just a few months ago. In May, the WB announced that it was banishing the critically acclaimed yet low rated show to Sundays — historically the network's worst-performing night of the week. Just days later, the series's beloved co-creator and exec producer David Greenwalt defected to ABC to work on the midseason drama Miracles. And to make matters even worse, Greenwalt's replacement — writer-producer David Simkins — himself stepped down in August.

But a funny thing happened when all the dust settled: Angel is more than holding its own in the Nielsens, and creatively, it's stronger than ever. Even Whedon — who, following the behind-the-scenes exodus promoted Tim Minear and Jeff Bell to exec producer ranks (alongside him) — marvels at the turnaround. "I thought if there was one show of mine that's going to be in trouble [this year], it is Angel," he says. "But it's really kicking it out." — Michael Ausiello


I'm still holding out hope that SMG will reconsider, since she does seem to be more receptive to the possibility now, what with the "no decisions have been made yet" statement she released recently. But if she doesn't, having some more of the "Buffy" characters join the "Angel" cast would definitely be the next best thing. Looking forward to more developments on this as the year progresses!


[> Interesting -- thanks for posting that. -- yez, 07:50:52 11/01/02 Fri

[> When "Buffy" ends. (spoilers for BtVS S6 and AtS S3 & 4, unspoiled speculation.) -- Arethusa, 09:53:53 11/01/02 Fri

Thanks, Rob. This is potentially very exciting news. With no more Buffy in Sunnydale, I could see Willow graduating from college and moving to L. join the demon hunters in AI. Ever since Spike's soul returned, I've wanted to see him interact with Angel. He could be independent, join AI, or even work with Wesley, if Wes doesn't rejoin AI. It would be fun to see W&H drive themselves crazy trying to figure out which vampire with a soul is the one in the prophecies, and it would inflame Angel's insecurities.

However, I can't picture Xander leaving Sunnydale, or Angel wanting him to.

[> [> Agree and this is good news -- shadowkat, 10:08:10 11/01/02 Fri

I'd been worrying about Angel from the news clips I'd read about poor ratings, etc. But maybe it's doing better than I expected?

I too would love to see the characters of Spike and Willow
cross over. Also wouldn't mind seeing Dawn pop in.
Not sure how Xander would work though? Can't see a reason for him joining Angel. But ME has surprised me before.

[> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news (some unspoiled future spec) -- Rob, 10:34:38 11/01/02 Fri

Actually, I was thinking of that, too. I don't see Xander moving to LA. Perhaps a good ending to "Buffy" would be Willow moving to LA, while Xander stays in Sunnydale and marries Anya. Since EC doesn't want to return another year, that would work well, b/c the Xander/Anya story could be resolved (and I really do want them to end up together).

On the other hand, if ME does find a good way to get Xander to LA, I would love to see the interactions between him and Angel. I wonder if the dichotomy might change, now that Buffy has confronted Xander about the similarities btw. her relationship with Angel, and his with Anya. Could be very interesting...

On the other other hand, I think Willow would be best suited for AI, and I don't see both Willow and Xander leaving Dawn and Buffy alone in Sunnydale.

Spike would be great on "Angel," specifically b/c of that prophecy about the vamp with a soul playing a role in the Apocalypse. Now that there is more than one vamp w/ a soul, that could lead to some great drama between the two of them.


[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news (some unspoiled future 'shipping) -- pr10n, 10:50:09 11/01/02 Fri

Whee hoo! Kick start the Angel/Willow ship-of-fools. "Theirs is a forbidden love," of course, and wouldn't that put a crimp in Cordelia's sainthood. "I'd rather see you undead then with that bitca."

[> [> [> [> I think we're all missing the best possible role for Xander in A.I... -- vishanti, 10:54:42 11/01/02 Fri


No sentient being in the universe gets under Angel's skin the way Xander does. Xander's very presence seems to bring Angelus-like feelings up to the surface. Long after their competition over Buffy was finished, they kept sniping at each other in the grand, classic fashion of two guys who simply hate each other's guts (GD Pt.1). And who can forget Angel's undercover workover of Xander's jaw in "Enemies"? (I tell you, it would be a shame to waste that much bad blood.)

Besides, now that Angel's hot for Cordelia, the introduction of Xander into the mix would be a nice reversal of Buffy S1: Angel's got a clear field, and suddenly, the old boyfriend pops in--and maybe Cordy still has some feelings for Xander, especially since they went out on such a good note ("The Prom"). More tension and rival-y goodness!

[Xander could also teach Gunn a thing or two about snarking on Angel. If nothing else, he has to teach Gunn to call our hero "Dead Boy."]

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Xander and Cordy -- leslie, 20:46:00 11/01/02 Fri

I have actually been thinking about this since the whole Angel/Cordy thing began developing: Cordy really hasn't had a long-term boyfriend since Xander, has she? A few dates--most notably the guy who knocked her up with a demon-fetus--but no serious relationship. For all that we yak about Buffy's unability to open up emotionally since Angel left her, she has at least made an attempt at relationships since then; Cordy really hasn't.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Xander and Cordy- -clarification -- leslie, 08:32:13 11/02/02 Sat

I meant to say, nobody after Xander until Gru, but the thing is, Gru reappears just as the Angel-Cordy thing is starting to develop, so I think it has to be regarded as part of Angel and Cordy rather than a separate thing in itself. In Pylea, he was just another of her almost- relationships; he shows up just as Angel realizes he's in love with her, and leaves just as she realizes she's in love with him (Angel).

[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news (some unspoiled future spec) -- Random, 13:40:30 11/01/02 Fri

So what are we picturing here, Rob? Impending apocalypse, Angel's, sword in hand and trench coat billowing, flexs his knees as he prepares to jump into the fray and...hey, leggo, Spike! What do you think you're doing?!?
Spike: Back off, you Nancy-boy poofter. What the bloody 'ell gives you the idea you're going to save all those Happy Meals on legs? Don't you have a pedicure or something?
Angel: Spike, I'm warning you...if this apocalypse destroys the world while you're sitting here annoying me, I'll...
Spike: You'll what? Bloody git, you think just 'cause you got a soul first that means you get to fulfill all the prophecies? Newsflash, gel-for-brains, I got a bloody soul too and you may have gotten vamped first and shagged Buffy first but by god! this time, it's the big bad's turn.
More in this same vein until the apocolypse overtakes them and Spike finds out why it's really a super bad idea to have a soul in Angel could have told him, having done that first too.
Hmmm...has possibilities...

[> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- Rob, 16:10:39 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> How about these. (speculation, no spoilers) -- Shiraz, 12:03:26 11/01/02 Fri

Oddly enough, I've been thinking about this recently, and in my opinion, Xander is the most likely character to be brought over. Here's why:

1. Nick Brendon is a good actor who knows the Whedon Universe well, but, aside from Buffy, his acting CV is somewhat thin. Therefore, as an actor, NB may be more willing than other members of the cast to move to the spinoff series.

2. His rivalry with Angel and history with Cordie would provide a lot of good plot material (if handled properly).

3. As for why Xander would be in LA, well, umm... the Hyperion! Its in crappy condition, and it really looks like they could use a good general contractor there. Add to that Angel's constant money problems and the fang gang needs one on the cheap. Somebody, who, say owed them some favors, or who could be guilted into accepting the job by a mutual friend.

4. As to why Xander would leave Sunnydale; if BTVS ends with the Hellmouth closed, the sudden lack of buildings violently crashing down could lead to some unemployment problems among Sunnydale's typicallly overworked construction proffessionals. Besides which, a part of Xander has always wanted to leave Sunnydale, since the end of Season 3 the only thing keeping him there has been his friends and his lack of direction.

Just my take on things,


[> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news -- Cheryl, 12:04:23 11/01/02 Fri

Interesting if Willow moves over to Angel - I'm sure Alyson and Alexis would be happy about it, although I wonder what she thinks of those scenes between Lilah & Wes. :-)

[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and this is good news -- Raven_NightDragon, 13:26:50 11/01/02 Fri

Probably the same thing he thought whenever she kissed Amber... uhm, then again, probably not. Never mind, I'm rambling

[> [> [> [> [> Button, button, who has the button? My money is on... -- tricky_d, 13:50:27 11/01/02 Fri

Xander. For many of the reasons given in previous posts. And plus a part of me would just love to see how that might play out. After so many long years of helping the Slayer through thick and thin, it would be nice for the X-man to realize that he really is a Hero no less than the others. Plus he has shown over the years that he has a cool head in combat, and is "a fair hand with a cleaver, it must be said." It would also be funny to have scenes of W&H trying to figure out just what in the hell he brings to the table.

Also Spike would be great to have aboard. Because JM is such a damn good actor that you could go in a million directions with him and not risk hokieness. And plus, I would love to see him smart off to Cordy and get flat out decked, he'd never see it coming.

Personally though, I would like Spike to somehow be able to stay with Buffy and be happy, but then I am an old romantic.

I think EC would be a good addition to. She want's to define her own role, be her own woman. She moves to the big city, ala Cordy in City Of Angel gets into some kind of trouble and along comes big, dark, and broody to save her. It couldn't hurt for a demon-hunting crew to have her 1000+ years of Demonological expertise on staff.

As for Willow, how would the AI team deal with a co-worker of that kind of enormous power? And how would Will handle having an even geeky version of herself around, in Fred? Though being around someone who understands her darkside (Angelus has tried to end the world too) might be theraputic for both.

My dream line up for an all out whoop ass brawl would be Angel, Spike, Conner, Cordy, Xander, Gunn, Wes and Will. But that seems like a lot of power for Angel to coordinate. How would he likely handle the extended family?

One thing is clear, W&H would have to hire more thug-- pronto.

[> [> [> [> About to say the same thing re: AH/AD -- Scroll, 13:36:02 11/01/02 Fri

Good thing I read through the whole thread first. But yeah, I bet Alexis would love to have his girl on the set with him. But I can't put too much hope into this possibility because AH really is a phenomenal actress who has her foot in the movie business. It would make more sense for her to pursue movies rather than be another book/science/magic person since we already have a book person (Wes), a science person (Fred), and a psuedo-magic person (Cordy).

James Marsters, OTOH, doesn't have as much of a rep in Hollywood. He might be enticed over to "Angel". I'd love to see Spike and Connor rebelling against Angel, snarking about their "father" figure, and getting into fights.

[> [> [> [> [> Well... -- Masq, 13:38:01 11/01/02 Fri

If Connor doesn't try killing Spike first. : )

[> [> [> [> [> Re: About to say the same thing re: AH/AD -- vh, 14:10:58 11/01/02 Fri

I suppose you might be right about Mr Marsters, but that just makes me wonder about how people cast productions, anyway. What's wrong with them? You put on a pair of fangs, automatically you can't act? He has plenty of talent, and I'd love to see him do other things.

[> [> [> [> [> OK, is there some Alysson Hannigan and Alexis Denisoff connection I don't know about? -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:49:06 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Last I heard, Hannigan & Denisof were dating. *shrug* -NT -- ZachsMind, 21:02:21 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes. -- HonorH, 00:15:48 11/02/02 Sat

They've been an item since AD left BtVS for L.A. That's-- let's see--about two and a half years now. He accompanied her to England while she was filming with ASH. Offhand, I'd say it's fairly serious.

[> [> [> Yummy, slashy goodness ! -- Ete, 04:04:54 11/02/02 Sat

I would love to see Spike and Angel interract ^_^

[> I cringed when I read this... -- yabyumpan, 17:36:56 11/01/02 Fri

Personally, I hate the idea of anyone form BtVS moving to AtS. I could possibly take Spike turning up for the odd episode and maybe Xander comming for one visit, as I think there's unfinished business between him and Cordy and i wouldn't mind seeing his reaction to the new Cordy, ditto Giles meeting up with Wesley again but other than that, can I just say 'cast bloast'! I think we're getting pretty close to this on AtS at the moment anyway, one more regular would just tip it over the edge.

I also like that they're seperate, maybe because BtVS has pretty much lost me over the last few years, I don't like or care about any of the characters anymore. AtS is doing better than ever this year, I'd like to see it follow through on that trajectory without interference from the mother ship.

[> [> I agree! -- Masq, 15:38:22 11/02/02 Sat

[> Re: Joss' idea for what to do when "Buffy" ends. -- JBone, 17:58:33 11/01/02 Fri

This actually may work with my "Cordelia returns to Sunnydale" theory for the end of this season. Only instead of her not coming back to AtS next year, she returns with a couple characters in tow. I'm going to approach it from the direction that everyone, for whatever reason, leaves Sunnydale. And I'm also going on the assumption that everyone survives. All that said, this is what I think of everyone's chances of showing up at the Hyperion in Season 5.

Buffy - Maybe for an episode or two here and there, but I think she makes tracks with Dawn to Canada.

Willow - I can see her showing up later on, for a quick visit, but Willow has options. As long as she finishes that degree. And it's all about options, buddy.

Xander - A move to LA would make a lot of sense for him, as long as everyone is leaving Sunnydale. He use to make a lot of noise about getting off the hellmouth, but he won't go far. I don't think he'll hook up with Cordy again, unless she is still a demon. Very likely to remodel the Hyperion.

Dawn - She goes where Buffy goes, (Canada), but we need that scene where she'll drool all over Connor, so she'll pop in with Buffy at least once.

Spike - His relocation to LA makes sense also. We still don't know what Spike with a soul is like. He didn't exactly get along with Angel when they were both evil, so I doubt they will when they both have souls. Nonetheless, it would make great tv. He, along with Buffy, Oz and Willow have actually been on AtS. Angel should have warned him.

Giles - Easiest one. Back to merry old England and hopefully his own show at long last.

Anya - Hardest one. She's seen Angel once, and only knows Cordelia. Oh, I forgot that she also knows the old Wesley. I really can't see her hanging out with Xander's only other real girlfriend. But since it is all about options, buddy, what are hers? Follow Xander? One thing for sure, if she did join the team, AI would become a money making project, overnight.

Clem - Sure, why not. What else is he going to do?

Sunnydale human populace - Let's see, they're mostly white, American humans, so they won't move to LA. They'll probably join the exodus leaving California for the mountain states.

Sunnydale's "other" populace - LA and Vegas.

Even though I'm thinking that Xander and Spike are the most likely candidates to transplant, I don't like how that will leave the ratio there. Way too many Y chromosomes for Cordy, Fred and umm, Lilah. Maybe one of Angel's guys will meet their doom. Not Wesley, because well, because I'm not sure he can be killed. Maybe Gunn? Lorne is a goner for sure. But not Connor, because we need that meeting with Dawn.

[> [> hehe -- M, 00:20:10 11/03/02 Sun

Buffy and Dawn in Vancouver. I'm happy.

[> I want to have Tim Minear's the man's writing -- LeeAnn, 23:11:43 11/01/02 Fri

At least on Firefly which is where I first actually looked at the writer's name cause I liked some of the dialogue so much.

[> [> Get in line, honey! -- HonorH, 00:13:56 11/02/02 Sat

[> [> [> I could deal with a warm handshake and decent guys can keep the childbirth...;) -- Rufus, 01:38:04 11/02/02 Sat

I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22-4.4, future speculation) -- Masq, 09:22:15 11/01/02 Fri

caveat: You spoiler trollops may already know if this is true or false, but I don't!

I've been rewatching the end of AtS Season 3 in light of the new season 4 episodes and I'm further refining my whole theory about what's up with Cordelia.

In my ep analysis, I stated my opinion that Cordy's "ascent" wasn't what it appeared to be. We are getting more and more evidence that that is true. Going back to the season finale "Tomorrow", I was again struck by the scene in which Angel, Connor, Gunn, and Fred return from the movies. Angel is on top of the world. He is bonding with Connor, Connor seems to look up to him now, and Lorne told him Cordelia has feelings for him.

Then Cordelia calls him and asks to meet him. She implies this will be a romantic meeting. In this scene, the word "happy" gets thrown around a lot. Connor says, "it's good to see you happy, dad". Angel is swooning. Fred and Gunn look concerned. "He's happy. Really happy," Fred says. Then she goes as far as to get up and poke Angel just to irritate him back into a somewhat normal frame of mind.

Not that it does. Things are going very well for Angel, at least in his own mind. I believe that if his rendevous with Cordelia had gone off as planned, Angel would have completely lost it. His soul, that is. All he would have needed to hear was Cordelia's admissions of her feelings, and maybe there'd be a kiss, and boom.

This is the point where the PTB's step in. They don't step in very often, preferring to let people act out of their own free will, but they have intervened in the lives of our heroes before, and I think they do this time. I think it was clear from Cordelia's boredom in the higher dimensions and her desire to get out of there that Cordelia wasn't up there fighting the Good fight.

She'd been kidnapped.

She was whisked out of the way to prevent that moment of true happiness that would have turned the PTB's Champion* into the vicious Angelus. The PTB's didn't intend to take her forever, just long enough to make sure Angel's life was sufficiently miserable that Cordelia could be returned. She doesn't belong in the higher planes, she belongs on Earth.

This is also why Skip wouldn't let Cordelia tell Angel her true feelings for him before she left. Just being on the safe side.

This raises of the question of Connor. Did the PTB's know he was going to betray Angel at the beach, thereby thwarting the whole "happiness clause" danger? If they did, they might not have interfered by taking Cordelia. But I don't think so. I'm not one of these folks who thinks the PTB's are all- powerful and can read the hearts and minds of human beings. Skip said in "Birthday" that free will is one thing the PTB's can't anticipate or do much about.

I think if they did suspect Connor was being duplicitious with his warming-up-to-dad thing, they feared Connor's betrayal would come too late to prevent Angel from losing his soul. So they stepped in.

Then we get to Cordelia's return to Earth. I don't believe she was sent back because she "broke the rules" and interfered with Angel's slot machine. I think the PTB's decided it was time for her to be returned where she belonged. But they didn't want Cordelia rebonding with Angel. So they sent her back with no memory. I speculated in my ep analysis of STB that Cordelia was given an innate trust of Connor, because the PTB's want her to team up with him for some reason (and no, it's not for nookies).

Anyway, that's my theory. "Take it and Run" (TM)

* Yes, I used "the word". So nyeh!

[> It makes sense to me.. -- AurraSing, 10:23:58 11/01/02 Fri

The timing of Cordelia's ascent was certainly suspicious to me.And while she had done a lot of great and wonderful things since she joined Angel fighting evil,she certainly had not done the number of 'selfless' acts a character like Buffy has performed over the years-so why pick her??

It also sounds like W+H need Angelus and not Angel when the big day goes down.I wonder who they have been priming to make sure Angel does have that happy moment and turns into his bad self?

(I also hope your forecasting of the bond between Cordy and Connor does come true...I'll be "watching" ATS behind my hands if any Cordy/Connor nookie does come about! Ewwwwwwww!!)

[> [> Skip as prison warden (spoilers for S4, speculation) -- Scroll, 13:08:21 11/01/02 Fri

It also sounds like W+H need Angelus and not Angel when the big day goes down.I wonder who they have been priming to make sure Angel does have that happy moment and turns into his bad self?

I'm not sure we can say conclusively that W&H want Angel without a soul. From everything I've seen in Season 2, I think the senior partners want Angel dark, not necessarily soulless. They want him to lose his moral centre, to do questionable and evil things with his soul intact. Such as feed a bunch of lawyers to Darla and Dru, such as ignore Cordelia's visions of people in need.

And I totally agree with you and Masq about Cordy's "ascension" having very suspicious timing. Also consider Skip's previous job description. He was a prison guard, keeping watch over Billy Blim (demon boy whose touch made men violently insane in early Season 3). He made sure Billy couldn't escape his fire cell in hell. If we take this into consideration, couldn't Skip just have been keeping Cordelia in a really nice, white, heavenly-looking jail cell?

But I have to wonder if there are any less critical watchers of "Angel" who might actually accept Cordy as a Higher Being. Who don't see the irony or the implausibility. Will they feel they've been tricked if/when Joss pulls back the curtain and show that Cordelia never deserved "Higher Being" status?

[> [> [> Most of the people... -- Masq, 13:36:43 11/01/02 Fri

...who took Cordelia's ascension at face value tend think to it was the lamest story idea ever and then bitch about how the show has "Jumped the Shark", even if they don't use that cliched phrase to sum up their opinion.

If it is revealed that this wasn't what really happened to Cordy after all (raised to be a higher being), they will accuse ME of retcon to cater to fan opinion.

I read the posts at the official WB Angel site sometimes, just to remind myself why I hang around over here. A non- ending stream of debate over whether Angel and Cordelia would make a good couple with no mention of the "true happiness" problem, mis-spelled remarks stating that Connor is either soo cute or he "suks", and, of course, interspersed complaints about Cordelia's hair, clothes, glowing, powers.

At least when we do all of the above we do it by offering reasons to back up our opinions and we attempt to have grammatical sentences! : )

[> [> [> [> I'll admit on first watching "Tomorrow"... -- Scroll, 14:06:36 11/01/02 Fri

My jaw was dropped from the moment Skip opened his mouth and said, "Higher Being." And my jaw stayed dropped until I had rewound and watched that scene over two more times. Then I picked my jaw up and said, "Joss better have a damn good explanation cuz I can't see anyone believing Cordelia is worthy of being a Higher Being."

Then the next day, I watched the whole episode over again, and went, "Hmm. I think ol' Skip there is pulling our leg." Then I laughed and said, "Cordy's being pla-ayed, Cordy's being pla-ayed (to be read in a sing-song voice). Ha!"

BTW, Masq, if we're wrong, boy are we going to look stupid! And I'll never trust Joss again. (Possibly.) Because the very idea that anyone deserves to be a Higher Being just irks me. Fortunately, the implication that Cordelia spent her summer being completely bored and not, oh say, "fighting the good fight on another plane of existence", seems to back up the Skip-Tricked-Cordy theory.

Yeah, I've only lurked on the WB "Angel" board once or twice. I find a lot of other boards never seem to catch on to the "hidden" messages Joss sends out to us. I suppose I can't blame people for enjoying a TV show only on a superficial level, even though I'll read their posts and wonder what show they're watching because it's certainly not the show I'm watching!

Thank the PTB for ATPo, eh?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'll admit on first watching "Tomorrow"... -- Masq, 15:31:36 11/01/02 Fri

Tell me about it! When I watched "Tomorrow" for the first time, I just cringed through that whole Skip-and-Cordy thing, thinking, "this is so lame!"

It was only after I got on the board and saw people speculating that it wasn't what it appeared that I calmed down.

Then, during my analysis of the episode days later, I realized something was actually amiss in that whole scenario. What set the whole thing off was Cordelia's vision of herself. She's thinking about Angel and she has a vision of herself. In the vision, she sees her future self responding to Skip's comments about being a higher being, but she doesn't know realize the context of what she is seeing--she thinks that her vision-self is talking about Angel. I thought... why would the PTB's give her a misleading vision?

So I came up with my "all is not as it appears" theory. But it's still mostly wishful thinking!

Now when I rewatch the episode "Tomorrow", I put that Skip-Cordy bit on "mute" to avoid its lameness. Makes it kind of hard to enjoy the non-lame Connor-sends-daddy-to-the-fishes bit, though, since the two scenes are intercut with each other.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ha! It *is* lame! -- Scroll, 16:41:19 11/01/02 Fri

You're right, that whole scene is lame, which kinda bites cuz I'm fascinated by the Angel/Connor dynamics. So much bitterness and hatred and love and confusion, then -- you're a Higher Being, no really! you are! -- dark, angry teen welding his father into a coffin -- what you're doing Transcends Love! Really! That entire sequence makes me cringe and feel so sorry for Charisma Carpenter. She must've *hated* doing that episode. (I heard rumours that CC didn't like where her character was going in Season 3. I won't say her feelings were unwarranted.)

So as you can tell, I'm totally on board for your theory. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ha! It *is* lame! -- Rob, 23:09:54 11/01/02 Fri

"She must've *hated* doing that episode."

...Unless she had already been informed as to what was really going on. If that is what's really going on. ;o)


[> [> [> [> irony -- M, 22:24:27 11/02/02 Sat

I believed it simply because it was so ridiculous. Joss always tries to mess with our heads. It just seemed funny to me that Cordilia of all people should acend to heaven. I honestly think she was the cleverest choice. I love the irony.

[> [> C/C makes me think of a Huggies commercial gone wrong..... -- Rufus, 16:48:54 11/01/02 Fri

I can't get past the fact that Cordy had changed and burped Connor....I don't care how time in another dimension still freaks me out.

[> [> [> *snerk* -- Masq, 16:58:11 11/01/02 Fri

[> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22- 4.4, future speculation) -- Rob, 10:26:14 11/01/02 Fri

Great spec, Masq. In fact, that's the best theory I've heard about this yet, and it definitely makes logical sense. All of the pieces in your theory seem to fit perfectly. I guess then, the slot machine thing was put in as a red herring to instantly get people thinking that that was why Cordy was kicked out of the heavenly dimension. I'm not spoiled either, but I'd be willing to bet that what you've proposed is at least partly where the writers are going with this. I don't think that they would have given Cordy amnesia unless there was a very big purpose in the story. If there wasn't, she probably would have been cured by the end of "Slouching..." The fact that she still hasn't lends more credence to your ideas. I just wonder now how ME is going to proceed--how long she will stay memory-wiped, how the heck she will get her memory back, and even if she ever will. I am very looking forward to answers about this. As ya know, I'm still new to "Angel," (I've seen the first seven eps in a marathon run yesterday, and some scattered other eps) but out of everything I've seen and been able to understand of the fourth season so far, I am most intrigued at the moment by Cordy's character and what the heck happened to her (not that I don't find everything else interesting also).


[> [> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22-4.4, future speculation) -- Darby, 10:37:58 11/01/02 Fri

Good theory about the plotting direction. It's got it all - symmetry, synchronicity, and a certain amount of style. And it removes the need for Skip to have hard-to-explain sinister / evil motives.

Still don't trust the PTB, but I suspect it's too early for them to be tipping their hands yet...

[> [> I did get inadvertantly spoiled... -- Masq, 10:45:14 11/01/02 Fri

About how Cordelia might get her memory back.

Serves me right for wandering around strange "Angel: the Series" sites trolling for screen-shots. My momma warned me about taking screen shots from strangers.

The spoiler, if it's right, was a bit reassuring to me. It did not give away why Cordelia has no memory, though. That's just me spook-ulating again!

[> [> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22-4.4, future speculation) -- leslie, 08:46:08 11/02/02 Sat

I did enjoy, though, the rapidity with which, despite her loss of personal memory, Cordy's own winsome personality re-emerged. Especially threatening to turn Fred into a rat.

[> Allow me to play devil's advocate... -- tricky_d, 12:05:53 11/01/02 Fri is certain that the PTB have had a copy o' the scrolls of Aversion lying about for several centuries, which means they know all about the vamp-with-a-soul, which means (as I think Whistler in "Passion" shows) they have had an interest in Angelus/Angel from the beginning. And yet they did not mind him turning in Sunnydale, they did nothing at all to prevent it. It didn't matter to them (or to Buffy) whether Angelus/ Angel was in that moment to stop the Apocalypse. Either way Angel/Angelus was going to die.

I think your whole thoery is based on two implicit premises; one is that the PTB want Angel and not Angelus when the time comes. That is certainly the assumption at Angel Investigations, and at Wolfram & Hart. But is it correct to assume that the PTB have a stake in which of the two personalities show up in the long run? Maybe, but, as was the case in Sunnydale, maybe not. It might matter very much less to the PTB that Angel and not Angelus is around for the big show so long as one of them accomplishes the task they have him scheduled for.

The second assumption is Wesley's assumption. This is that Angel is even capable of turning. As the old saying goes: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." It occurs to me that Angel's knowledge of the curse, and of the reprocussions of his happiness might offer him a perpetually slight discomfort in happy situations, just enough to bolster him against the curse permanently. A conscience can be a very haunting thing after all.

That said, I also feel that Skip was less than forthright about his reasons for taking Cordy. If the case were that she was to be a "warrior for good" on the higher planes it does seem that she would have been a little more occupied than she appeared to be.

All speculation aside, I think we really do not have the goods on know why Cordy was brought back just yet. Nor are we meant to.

Though your interpretation of events does fit. It is possible that there are others.

My own feeling is that Angel will, at some point during this season, turn. In fact, I want to see him turn. My feeling is that Wolfram & Hart have absolutely no idea what Angelus is capable of doing to their plans if he were uncorked. They seem to think that he might fall in with their scumbag rank and file, but I think that is a very naive belief. If anything, Angelus might be MORE dangerous to them than Angel ever could. Just imagine how he and Lilah might play out. Were he to turn, my guess is that the AI gang would end up going to work with Wesley's crew, with the possible exception of Lorne (who really does not slay much).

Of course were he to turn, he would still be obsesive about Cordy, as we saw with Buffy. Perhaps the PTB brought Cordy to them to prepare her for the job of fighting Angelus, and perhaps restoring his soul when the time comes.

of course this is all just another speculation about the uncertain future. Only the PTB's (and Joss) know what is coming with certainty.

[> [> Re: Allow me to play devil's advocate... -- Rob, 12:54:41 11/01/02 Fri

...Don't forget that now that Angel is no longer the only vamp-with-a-soul, it's possible that that prophecy was never meant for him in the first place. Just a thought to mull over.


[> [> bedeviling the advocate @>) -- anom, 13:18:11 11/01/02 Fri

" is certain that the PTB have had a copy o' the scrolls of Aversion lying about for several centuries, which means they know all about the vamp-with-a-soul, which means (as I think Whistler in "Passion" shows) they have had an interest in Angelus/Angel from the beginning. And yet they did not mind him turning in Sunnydale, they did nothing at all to prevent it."

This may fall under the same thing Skip told Cordelia in Birthday: the PTB can't predict things like love. Humans & their feelings are the wild card. Just as they didn't know Doyle would fall in love w/Cordelia & pass his visions to her w/a kiss just before he sacrificed himself, they didn't know Buffy & Angel would fall in love, leading them to make love & thus bring out Angelus.

In fact, now it occurs to me to wonder if the PTB did take a hand in making sure Willow's resouling spell worked, channeling the Gypsy woman's spirit to her across the centuries (OK, to bring back Angel. On the other hand, it probably would have been more to their advantage to see to it that the spell worked the 1st time, so maybe not.

"My feeling is that Wolfram & Hart have absolutely no idea what Angelus is capable of doing to their plans if he were uncorked. They seem to think that he might fall in with their scumbag rank and file, but I think that is a very naive belief."

I think the idea that they could control any vampire was probably scotched by their experience w/Darla & Dru. Angelus might cooperate w/them short term if he perceived it as in his interest, but the moment it wasn't, he'd turn on them. W&H are hardly naive; it would be completely out of character for them not to realize that. Besides, by now they must've done some thorough research on him & know at least as much as Kate was able to find out in what, a few days?

Oh, & 2 monkey wrenches in all "vamp w/soul" prophecies: Angelus isn't a vamp w/a soul, & now Spike is.

[> [> You're Forgetting. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:35:44 11/01/02 Fri

Neither the Powers That Be nor Wolfram & Hart want Angelus back. The prophecies say that a vampire with a soul will have a pivotal role in an upcoming apocalypse (though which apocalypse and which side he will be on when the time comes isn't resolved). I'm pretty sure that, if W&H wanted Angelus back, it would have happened by now. The reason they haven't is that the prophecies all speak of a vampire with a soul, not a vampire who once had a soul but lost it. Angelus has no destined role in the Apocalypse, only the souled Angel does. Thus, W&H are trying to turn Angel dark; not by removing his soul, but by corrupting it to their purposes. Likewise, the PTBs want Angel to keep his soul so that he can turn the tide for their side come the apocalypse.

Ooh, interesting thought: what if the Powers' campaign against evil isn't doing so good? Maybe sometime in season 4 they'll remove Angel's soul because, however much good he might do if he fought on their side come the apocalypse, they dare not risk the consequences if he joined the dark side. So they remove his soul, make the prophecy moot, and cut their losses.

[> [> [> WOW, great theory, Finn! (spoilers for Season 4, speculation) -- Scroll, 16:52:30 11/01/02 Fri

Ooh, interesting thought: what if the Powers' campaign against evil isn't doing so good? Maybe sometime in season 4 they'll remove Angel's soul because, however much good he might do if he fought on their side come the apocalypse, they dare not risk the consequences if he joined the dark side. So they remove his soul, make the prophecy moot, and cut their losses.

Finn, that is brilliant! I've heard rumours (nothing confirmed) that Angelus is supposed to make an appearance this season. I don't know how or for how long, but all the theories I've heard so far regarding how and why Angel loses his soul are pretty stupid. Lame Theory #1: The Fang Gang need to access Angelus' memories in order to stop a bad guy, so they do a spell to take away Angel's soul. Not only is this a very dumb plan, it doesn't even make sense metaphysically since Angel doesn't get amnesia just because he has a soul! Anyway, I love your theory because it would just be so twisted. Angel would be all, "But I'm supposed to Shanshu! I'm the vampire with a soul! What do you mean, you don't want me to be a Champion anymore! What about destiny?!" Then he would pout, the PTB would strip his soul, and we would have leather pants again. Maybe Angelus would do us a favour and eat... any characters we don't like. It would be so, so good.

(I was going to name who it was I don't like, but didn't want to devolve into character bashing. I'm trying to be good, honest!)

[> [> [> [> future-y spoilers for season 4 -- Masq, 16:59:39 11/01/02 Fri

Just so long as he doesn't eat Connor.

[> [> [> [> [> In Scroll's post, I mean : ) -- Masq, 17:03:10 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Twisted as it is, it has Joss written all over it.... -- Juliet, 19:16:55 11/02/02 Sat

[> What word? -- DickBD, 12:08:12 11/01/02 Fri

Was it "nookies" or "free will"? I was pretty sure that philosophers had dismissed the idea of free will as meaningless, as behavior is always caused by something. Now biological studies (especially Francis Crick in his project on the mind) seem to be putting the final nail in the coffin.

I always thought of "free will" as a religious concept to provide an excuse for the presence of evil and for people to get themselves condemned to hell (a la Voltaire). But apparently, some atheistic existentialists believe in free will. Or am I wrong? And it seems to me that I read some place that Joss Whedon was of that philosophy.

[> [> Re: Check the asterisk in the post and a thread below. -- Darby, 12:15:52 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> Thanks. I couldn't find the @#$% asterisk! (But I finally did.) -- DickBD, 12:33:26 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> Re: What word? -- Arethusa, E. A., 12:22:57 11/01/02 Fri

Free will is the opposite of "behavior is always caused by something." We are not Pavlov's dogs; each decision we make is a conscious choice. Biological factors may affect our decisions, but we always have the choice to not follow our compulsions or inclinations. Religions isn't part of the decision making process, since an existentialist creates her own moral code. I'm short of time, but would love to continue the discussion later.

[> [> [> Great! -- DickBD, 12:42:01 11/01/02 Fri

I look forward to debating free will with someone who is not religious. To me the concept has long been meaningless, as our behavior is obviously determined by a combination of environment and heredity. (And environment would include existential teachings!) Consequences are not unwarranted since they can change behavior--but application of them can be more humane if the truth of the situation is recognized.

I grant the illusion of free will. I can do what I want. But I can't determine what I want.

[> [> [> [> Rambling thoughts on free will in the Buffyverse -- Masq, 13:00:04 11/01/02 Fri

I am also a person who understands the concept of free will in a non-religious way. I tend to agree with a very broad version of scientific determinism that takes into account the extreme complexity of the causal factors that impinge on a person from the outside world and from inside themselves.

I give a brief synopsis of the classical views on this issue at my site. Of those views, I think the most accurate is Hume's Soft Determinism.

The Buffyverse view of Free Will is a bit more complicated than any of these, though. With precognition being a real phenomenon in that 'verse, and prophecies abounding, one has to wonder how much "free will" there is. Of course, prophecies are mutable, thwartable, yada yada. Buffyverse characters stand up to them all the time and say, "You're evitable!"

That is not contradictory to soft determinism, but it does throw a wrench in the fatalism and pre-determinism views.

When Buffyverse characters refer to "free will", I think they mean a person is not be coerced into something; their choices to act are determined, but they are determined from inside the person, and that is what is meant by "free will". The PTB's almost always let people make their own decisions. They don't try to tell Angel or whomever what to do, or if they do, it's a suggestion, not an order or a coersive situation.

Each Buffyverse character very much act out of his or her internal "character". They are "free" to be the kind of people that they are, most of the time. External forces sometimes prevent this, of course, as they do in anyone's life. Nevertheless, each character's actions are determined. But since each character is so complex, it's sometimes hard for us to predict what they do. Doesn't mean it wasn't determined by the kind of person that they are.

OK, I'm rambling now. Just some thoughts on free will in the Buffyverse.

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- DickBD, 14:29:15 11/01/02 Fri

That was terrific. I went to the link and read what you had to say about “soft determinism.” I guess I would still be a hard determinist. I choose, but my choice is determined by my experiences, my mood, my biology, and a myriad of other factors that are difficult to take into account. Maybe even the fact that free will seems so obviously fallacious to me is partially genetic.

I have noted that some try to argue for free will because the discipline of quantum mechanics seems to indicate that the universe is not deterministic. I tend to think that just because we can’t get enough information to predict things does not make them non-deterministic. Nevertheless, even if quantum fluctuations affected what we do, that still would not be free will. It is important that we make moral choices, but those choices are determined by many confounding factors. If that were not so, why would parents spend so much time training their children to make the “right” choices?

In any case, I appreciate your response.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks! -- Masq, 14:59:54 11/01/02 Fri

Arguing on the basis of quantum mechanics may take away complete determinism (if A happens, B will happen, every time) but all it gives us in return is randomness (if A happens, B, C or D, will happen, and there is no law or anything else in the universe in the universe that determines which).

I don't think people want to believe their decisions arise from the random actions of the subatomic particles in their bodies, brains, and environment any more than they want them to arise from the immutable natural laws that govern their bodies, brains and environments.

Neither is what they mean by "free will".

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks! -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:21:17 11/01/02 Fri

My view:

Fate (and thus a lack of free will) do exist, because everything is a reaction to something else. If you take two people, who are biologically identical, are in the same state of being, have exactly the same memories, and are put in exactly the same situation: both will act exactly the same way.

However, the interactions of the world are so enormously complex that it is impossible to really predict anything. While everything is pre-determined, unless fortune telling or time travel are proven possible, the existence of fate is meaningless, because a destiny no one knows about may as well be the result of chance.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks! -- DickBD, 14:13:44 11/02/02 Sat

I guess I would agree with all that, although I would call it determinism rather than fate. It seems the only way our hunter-gatherer minds can make sense of thing is in cause and effect. Being able to predict allowed Newton to sell his gravitation theory. Heck, even quantum mechanics is accepted because it can make astonishingly accurate predictions. (And this is at the subatomic level, where no one really knows what is going on, and it is impossible to measure thing, getting all the information, without interfering in the process.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> "We must believe in free will. (We have no choice!)" -- DickBD, 14:01:08 11/02/02 Sat

I must confess that free will never made any sense to me. Where would uncaused behavior ever come from? I think Francis Crick is working out the sense of self that we all have. I think one reason that people rebel against the idea of non-free will (if you will) is that it then seems as though there is no responsibility. But that is not true. We must all accept consequences. I think it just makes us more humane in dealing with others with defective behavior. We have the right to imprison them to keep society safe, but it should be humane, with certain comforts and rights involved.

I don’t remember who first used the smart aleck quote that I used as a subject line, but I like it!

Does existentialism require free will? I do think the universe is meaningless. Like Angel, though, I also believe that very fact may make a single act of kindness the most meaningful thing of all. (But my genetics and experiences cause me to believe that way!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "We must believe in free will. (We have no choice!)" -- Masq, 15:24:13 11/02/02 Sat

Your quote really isn't smart aleck, it's a psychological truth. We have to think of our actions in terms of free will even if it is illusory.

I think where people get mixed up with the whole free will vs. determinism thing is they think determinism means being pushed around by the outside universe and being unable to make your own choices.

This simply isn't the case. We are as much, if not more "determined" by our own personalities, our moods, our senses, our internal biology and psychology than we are by forces external to us.

Believing in free is a mental trick that gives us the ability to see our selves as agents. It means we try to take control of our actions instead of letting the world control us. It allows us to be determined from within and not just from without.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> possible source of quote -- anom, 23:28:12 11/02/02 Sat

I don't know if he originated it, but I once saw Isaac Bashevis Singer on TV (probably PBS) talking to a classroom full of kids (Catholic school, maybe?). Anyway, one of them asked him if he believed in free will or predestination. He gave the example of someone who believes in predestination crossing the street & seeing a truck coming at them, out of control. Do they stand there, saying, "well, I guess I'm predestined to be killed by this truck"? No, they try to run from it. So you see, he said, we have to believe in free will. We have no choice.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: possible source of quote -- Masq, 08:39:55 11/03/02 Sun

Even though it was our genetic instinct for survival unencumbered by depression or low-self esteen that was really determiing our actions in that situation.

[> One point -- Doug the Bloody, 14:52:31 11/01/02 Fri

Ok, I like this theory, but wouldn't giving Cordelia an urge to trust someone be a pretty big violation of their free will? I don't think the powers *can* do that. They can send messengers like Whistler or Skip, but they can't just rewire everybody's brains to make their plans work. So I think that Cordy trusting Connor came from her natural emotions.

[> [> Re: One point -- Masq, 15:07:33 11/01/02 Fri

In my episode analysis of "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" I put the point a bit differently. I dont think the PTB's "inserted" a trust for Connor in Cordy's head.

What I think may have happened, and I'm running on pure speculation here, is that while she still had her memory, they told her things about Connor that were in addition to the things she already knew about him. Maybe they told her the reason he was born, what destiny they HOPE he will fulfill, or what kind of person Holtz brought him up to be--something.

Anyway, Cordelia doesn't remember being told that anymore, but she still retains the feelings that knowledge invoked in her. Maybe she felt very good and proud of him at the time she was told this. She would still retain those feelings even though her memories of events have been blocked.

So what Cordelia is acting on are her own feelings--she just doens't know where they're coming from.

And I think whatever knowledge of Connor she's forgetting has to be something big and special, because otherwise, she would have retained a "natural" trust of Angel and the others, and she needed some convincing in that department.

[> [> [> Re: One point -- Rufus, 16:36:11 11/01/02 Fri

I think a part of Cordy remembers that "glowy intervention" she did on Connor....she felt love and compassion for a lost boy. I think that memory of how lost and alone he had been left a mark that she may not remember in detail but still is there.

[> [> [> [> Re: One point -- Masq, 16:46:40 11/01/02 Fri

That explains her emotional connection to him as a person, but not why she would trust him. And she did say she trusted him, based on less than Angel and the others did for her.

And plus, the emotional memory of the glowy healing of Connor thing was also that moment Connor tried to kill her. She could retain a sort of primal fear of him from that moment as well. But she doesn't.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: One point -- Rufus, 16:51:34 11/01/02 Fri

And I think that's all part and parcel of the soul colonic she gave Connor. I think she connected with him in a way that goes beyond simple compassion...I think she saw into him long enough to see past the confusion and the anger to the potential trying to get out past Holtz's mind f*ck.

[> [> [> [> [> [> A point and a half -- Rufus, 17:05:30 11/01/02 Fri

From the Shooting Script for Bennediction....

Then you must go to him.

Connor reacts to that, recoils. Wasn't expecting this.


Walk in his world. Learn all you
can. Discover what of him may be in
you -- that you may always fight
against it.

Connor looks into his father's eyes. Not one to disobey. He nods. He will do as he's instructed.

HOLTZ (cont'd)
But be on your guard. Remember what
I've taught you. The devil will show
you bright things. Many colours...


Connor's stunned and grief stricken by the things Holtz is saying to him. Holtz is trying to comfort him.

When I saw you with him tonight, I
think I saw you for the first time.
In that instant, I realized what it
is you're meant to be.

I don't understand...

No. But you will.
Go back to him, Steven.

No. I don't want to. I don't want
to go.

You already have, son. It's what
brought you here. It's where you


Yes. Don't you see? It was your
need for him which drove you across
the dimensions.

I don't need him.

Holtz smiles a little sadly. More than a little.

I wish that were true. I wish you
could be my boy forever.

I can.


Connor stares, stunned, flayed, cut open.

Why are you doing this? Why? Don't
you love me?

My darling boy. It is because I love
you that I do this.

God gave me to you...

Yes. It was God's plan for us to be
together. Nothing will ever persuade
me otherwise.
But if I try to keep you apart now,
you would only end up hating me. And
that I will not have.

He's a demon.

And you're the bastard son of two

Then I'm a demon.

You're not. God help me I don't know
what you are -- except the finest
young man I have ever known.

How can I come from them and not be
one of them?

There is a reason. There are
answers. Go and find them out.

No. You told me not to be deceived,
but you've let yourself be deceived!
So I do hate you! I do. If you make
me go back there I'll only ever hate

(in great pain)
If I could stop it, I would, son.
You have to believe that. But we
were brought here by forces beyond
our control.

You're wrong. You're wrong.

Connor sets his jaw. Furious now. He backs away, then bolts to the door and is gone.

Lorne starts toward the stairs. Connor doesn't follow.

LORNE (cont'd)
This way.

Lorne starts to go. Behind his back:

I'm not going anywhere with you,

Lorne stops. Can't help but react. Little shithead.

(tries to keep it
Tell ya what, since you were raised
in a hell dimension by a psychopath,
and since that's a topic I happen to
know a little something about --
we'll just let that slide. I'll
fetch your pop for ya.

He starts to go again... but again:

(a rumble)
Filthy demon.

Cordy appears, coming down the stairs.

Actually, that's Uncle Filthy Demon
to you. Wasn't that long ago -- like
a week -- that I was changing your
diapers, you little --

Hey, hey. What's the problem?

She positions herself between a pissed off Lorne and a volatile Connor. Connor just stares at Lorne.

Steven... I know you haven't been in
this world very long, and I imagine
things were pretty Wild West-y out
where you're from... but Lorne's a
good guy. Honestly.

It's a demon.

Right. True. He is. But "demon"
doesn't always mean "evil" in this
dimension. I mean, look at me --

Whoops -- that got his attention. He does in fact look at her.

CORDELIA (cont'd)
Well, I'm part demon. Yeah. By
choice. I did it so I could help
And so that the back of my head
wouldn't explode. I know it's gonna
take a little getting used to, but --

And whip-fast he grabs her by the throat, twists her around. A FLASH of metal as he brings up his BLADE, and as it slashes down at her --


The knife slices down... Cordy's hand comes up... and catches Connor's wrist. Cordelia and Connor hold eye contact. He's clearly shaken by her sudden speed and strength. Her grip is absolute iron.

And now her eyes start to GLOW WHITE. The LIGHT spreads, goes up her arm and into his arm. To his hand. Wraps around the metal blade and turns it to jelly or mercury.

But things don't stop there. The LIGHT GROWS. Spreading into Connor. Cordelia's and Connor's eyes locked together.

Lorne watches, amazed as Cordelia's WHITE LIGTH infuses the boy. But the thing that passes between them isn't just some CGI effect. There is communication in the locked look between them. She seems to be connecting with him on some raw, complete level.

He looks so sad. And so does she, feeling everything that he's feeling, knowing just exactly what she's flushing out of him as this happens.

Let it go, honey. You don't need
that. You don't need any of that.
That's right. Just let it go, baby.

He seems to relax or give in or give up. Finally the WHITE LIGHT seems to center in Connor, then SNAP!, it leaves him like a spirit. He shivers and shakes, looks to Cordelia in wonder and confusion... then collapses utterly in her arms, weeping like a baby.

She holds him close. Comforts him.

CORDELIA (cont'd)
Shhh. It's okay, sweetie. That's
right. I know. It's okay.

The kid's in shock. Sweating and shivering. Cordelia rocks him gently. She looks over his shoulder to see --

ANGEL standing on the stairs. It's unclear just how much of this he's witnessed, but enough.


Are in the office. She looks almost as shaken as Connor does. Angel is full of concern for the both of them.

How do you feel?

Okay. A little drained, but okay.

Lorne enters, looks at Cordelia.

Well, you have got some serious mojo
goin' on, girl. Whatever deal you
struck with The Powers -- looks to me
like they gave you the full package,
all the extras. That boy was tox-ic
when he walked in here tonight.
Heavy on the "ick."

(to both of them)
What happened out there?

In my professional opinion -- ? Miss
demony-britches here gave that child
some kind of soul colonic. Flushed
him out but good.

Flushed what out?

It was that place. Quor-toth. It'd
crept into every part of him. He was
sick with it.

When Fred was taking her readings...

He nearly broke the needle. My
guess? She wouldn't get so much as
a click off him now.

So he's going to be okay?

Well, he's young. So -- no.

Angel looks to Connor sitting silently nursing his tea, then to Cordelia. He kneels down in front of her, puts his hand on hers.

Thank you. Thank you for doing this
for him.

She gives a wan, sad smile. He returns it, starts to rise, she holds him back for a beat as it occurs to her:

(he looks at her)
I know what it was like for him
there. So much pain, so much
confusion. He thought it was where
he belonged, that it was home. He's

Angel looks from her to Connor sitting out there alone.

Cordy may have given Connor a soul colonic, but Holtz had a fathers love that was able to twist the boy to his own end. But Cordy had been able to feel exactly what made Connor tick, past the manipulative stuff Holtz had planted, to the boy who was afraid and felt that as he was part-demon the Hell dimension was where he deserved to be. Because she understood Connor in a way no other could, Coryd woud have an inherent trust for the boy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A point and another increment -- pr10n, 19:27:13 11/01/02 Fri

Theme Check: You just reminded me of Anyanka and d'Hoffryn, and the power of renaming.

Holtz takes vulnerable (ok infant, but go with me) and makes him part of the family. He renames Connor "Steven." Then Holtz sends Steven back to destroy his enemies.

Renaming for control and power: d'Hoffryn renames Aud and controls her; when her amulet is destroyed she is renamed again.

Liam becomes Angelus, and then Angel. William becomes Spike, and then what? [NOT Sparky]. Miss Kitty Fantastico becomes Dawn... whoa there, Sailor!

But you see where I'm going -- when someone gets renamed in the Jossverse it means something powerful is going on.

Any other examples? I'm sure there are obvious ones. Oh wait: Rupert becomes Ripper, and then Giles. Maybe there are more?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But Buffy is always just Buffy -- Vickie, 14:22:17 11/02/02 Sat

At least, so says Joyce in S5, when she calls Dawn "little pumpkin belly". Buffy, whatever changes she goes through, doesn't go through this one. She is herself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> oops, except when she's Anne -- Vickie, 14:24:29 11/02/02 Sat

Even then, Anne is her own middle name, and she takes it on herself. No one renames her.

[> [> [> Or it was the honesty. -- Doug the Bloody, 16:59:34 11/01/02 Fri

Cordelia has always been a person who liked the truth; just witness how tactless she used to be, or how in "Earshot" her thoughts matched her words completely. So I don't find it all that hard to believe that she wouldn't like being lied to. Angel had good intentions for wanting to take it slow with the information but I can't blame Cordy for flipping over everyone creeping around and being completely obvious about the fact that they aren't being truthful.

Then she gets attacked in the hotel and is saved by Connor, so she want's to leave (this is after Angel and the others, who she already knew had been lying to her, had forbid her to leave the hotel.) And Connor tells her the truth, he tells her quite plainly that he sunk Angel and held a knife to her throat. He may not say much; but he doesn't lie to her, and he answers most of the questions that she asks.

Given Cordelia's character, I don't think we need to resort to mystic glowy workings or hidden revelations to explain this. That doesn't preclude either of these of course, but her behaviour can be chalked up to her personality as well.

Cordelia was the one to warn Angel to never lie to his son.

[> [> [> [> Good idea! -- Masq, 17:01:53 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> I'm adding this to my episode analysis -- Masq, 17:09:44 11/01/02 Fri

Sometimes the simplest explanation really is the right one. : )

[> [> [> [> Agree -- alcibiades, 09:28:36 11/02/02 Sat

Cordelia was the one to warn Angel to never lie to his son.

I agree with this, in fact, I think I posted the same point earlier this week.

In any case, the point is also about Angel not just Cordy.

Angel has lied to the two people closest to him and in both cases the result has been that he has lost those very people that he craves the closest relation with.

And in both cases too, he goes against good advice, first from Cordy, then from Fred, to tell the truth. The advice was out there and he rejects it.

This is a deeply ingrained faultline in Angel -- although whether it is more driven by hubris or fear, or is just a left over propensity from Liam, or some other option, is hard to tell at this point.

The Connor lie seems driven by the desire for revenge - the same revenge that sent him to murder Wesley, the Cordy lie seems driven by fear of rejection because of his special circumstances. In any case, in these kinds of crisis situations, Angel falls back on half truths and lies. And these invariably lead to trouble. Yet it is a problem he can't seem to break himself of.

BTW, Connor does explicitly lie to Cordelia in one scene, but in a way that kind of sucks up to her, so she doesn't question it, which is a sign of the old Cordy ego at work.

Cordelia asks why Connor was at the hotel, Connor replies that he saw she had returned. In fact, he was there for no such reason, but to further scope out the hotel and his father's activities. He happened to walk in on her arrival fortuitously.

[> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22- 4.4, future speculation) -- yabyumpan, 17:03:57 11/01/02 Fri

I totally agree with the Angel/Cordy perfect happiness thing, I've posted a few times about that since 'Tomorrow' first aired and also posted something similar re: Connor/Cordy a few days ago in response to Rob's thread (although you probably didn't read that Masq as it had future spoilers in) (no, they weren't about the Cordy/Connor connection). Over at Stranger Things it's something we've been discussing for some time (not all shipper boards are lame). There's also been speculation that that the C/C connection isn't recent. In 'Offspring', Cordy was the last person Darla fed off of before she 'gave birth' and the visions Cordy had at the time were different from usual, including a flashback to Darla/Angelus when she had the vision/dream at the hotel which told her that the baby had a soul. I think that the destinies of Cordy, Connor and Angel are all tied together and that we'll see where that leads this season.

Re: the PTSY and Angel's summer retreat, I figure that even if the PTSY knew what Connor had planned, they probably thought better to have their 'Champion' out of action for a few months than have the return of Angelus.

Re: Cordy not 'deserving' higher being status, while I agree that the whole assension thing was lame, the suggestion that Cordy is in no way worthy really grates. While I'm not suggesting that Cordy should be a 'higher being', she has been 'fighting the good fight' as long as Xander and Willow, maybe with many cutting remarks and complaints in Sunnyhell but she still did it. Over the past 3 years she has put up with ever worsening visions, refusing to give them up, twice, even though they were killing her and eventually agreed to be made part- demon, to give up part of her humanity, to allow her to carry on the work. I personally think that's a huge deal, esp as she did it not knowing what the effects might be, even checking for horns and a tail when she woke up, which while she obviously didn't want them, it was something she was prepared to accept. She has also put up with a lot of physical torments: impregnated with demon offspring, twice, torture by the priests in Pylea (even though that was almost played for laughs), sent crazy by Vocah in TSILA, the physical manifestations in TVT....It does seem that some people are stuck with the version of Cordelia from Sunnyhell, she's grown a lot and come a long way since then.

Sorry for the rant, but the suggestion that she is in no way worthy of special consideration by the PTB, the calls of 'what has she ever done to deserve it' and the ignoring of all that she's been through and done over the past 6 years, press's my buttons. As I said, no, I don't like the idea of her being a higher being but I do think she is deserving of at least as much respect as Xander,something she rarely get's (at least on this board)

[> [> Higher Being Material -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:49:37 11/01/02 Fri

I think a lot of it comes from the fact that there are others who have done just as much and given just as much as Cordelia, in some cases more, and have never gotten this offer to be a higher being. Why did Cordelia become higher being canidate material and not some of the other heroic people we've seen.

[> [> [> The PTB have their reasons that reason does not suspect... -- tricky_d, 02:32:42 11/02/02 Sat

Ok, forgive the butchery of Pascal. But the sentiment holds. the PTB are notoriously fickle in their choice of where, when, and how to act on behalf of humanity. I am of the opinion that Cordy has grown perhaps more than any single person in the Whedonverse. Consider that Buffy has always done just what she was designed to do (death is her gift); Willow has shown that she cannot be trusted with the power of being a Ascended being; Xander--great as he is- -has emotional problems that exclude him as a candidate for ascension; Wes also cannot be trusted; Angel is a formerly viscious murderer atoning for crimes; Fred and Gunn are sweet and tough but also not really all that effectual when alone;get where I am going with this? Cordy has fought her whole life, and ok she comes off shallow at times, but she makes the right choices, she loves people as they are, she doesn't have a malicious bone in her body (not since the understandable rage we saw in The Wish), she simply is a good, brave, half-demon, warrior. She is the female counterpart to the Grossalugg.
Too bad "kill-first-talk-later" Buffy can't show up tracking Lorne, in a case of mistaken identity or something. I would love to see Cordy have a go at the Buffster, god would B be surpised.

All ranting aside, the only other thing PTB could have done is nabb Angel, but then who would have gone to get the Axis--since you sort of have to be dead to do the whole my- dinner-with-Dinza thing that Angel did.

In addition to the above, one should carefully note the imagery we are given at the Beginning of season 4. Cordy is above, Angel is "deep down" and who is on earth between them? Connor. It is clear to me that Conner holds the key in getting the two star crossed lovers back together. Something tells meet that Conner really is their child. Given to Darla by the grace of the PTB, taken to Q to train with Holz, with the PTB intending all along to use for good what Holz had done out of Malice. But that is just my speculation.

[> [> Mea culpa, yabyumpan -- Scroll, 20:55:50 11/02/02 Sat

I'll admit I've been harsh on Cordelia in the past. I've said before that I don't think she deserves to be a Higher Being. But not because she isn't a good, strong, selfless, warrior for the PTB. Or that she is somehow inferior to Willow or Xander or Buffy. I guess my main complaint has always been that I can't buy the concept of a Higher Being in the first place, so when ME made Cordy a Higher Being, I can't trust this as true or believable. The very idea makes me cringe.

I'm very sorry, yabyumpan, if I've ever made it seem like I don't like Cordelia, cuz I really do. I was so happy to see her again in "Slouching".

[> Re: I think I figured it out (spoilers for AtS 3.22- 4.4, future speculation) -- Malandanza, 13:23:37 11/02/02 Sat

"I'm not one of these folks who thinks the PTB's are all-powerful and can read the hearts and minds of human beings...

"I think if they did suspect Connor was being duplicitous with his warming-up-to-dad thing, they feared Connor's betrayal would come too late to prevent Angel from losing his soul. So they stepped in."

Maybe they can't exactly see into the hearts and minds of people, but they do have an ability to divine the future, or, at least, a possible future -- Cordelia's visions are just such glimpses. I think they did know what Connor was planning and knew that if Cordelia arrived, that future would be altered. For whatever reason the PTSWY wanted Angel to spend the summer in a box at the bottom of the ocean, so they waylaid Cordelia for that purpose.

And to a certain extent, I think that time in the isolation tank was good for Angel. He was riding high. After using dark majicks and making deals with W&H demons his life was looking pretty good -- Connor was back, Sahjin was imprisoned and Cordelia and Angel were about to confess their secret love for one another. Not much of a punishment for a Champion who has drifted back into moral ambiguity. Angel emerged from the box with a renewed sense of purpose (as seen by his Champion speech to Connor). They needed a pretext to send Cordelia back after Angel had gotten the message (without making themselves look manipulative) -- they had to know that if Cordelia was allowed to watch her friends and given the ability to interfere, at some point she would do so. She was officious before she became omniscient.

Grammar and the Hellmouth -- tim, 09:51:10 11/01/02 Fri

This is something that I've wondored about for a while, and I'd appreciate everyone's input. My apologies if this has come up before; it's not something that's easy to look up in the archives. So here's the thing: is Sunnydale located on the Hellmouth or only a Hellmouth?

Going back to the first episode, Giles defines the Hellmouth as "a confluence of mystical energy." Theoretically speaking, couldn't there be more than one of these confluences? After all, just because the Monongahela and Allegheny Rivers conflue (or whatever the verb form would be) in Pittsburgh, PA, that doesn't keep the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers from confluing (for a post about grammar, I'm taking a lot of license here) in Cairo, IL. I know they always call it "the Hellmouth" on the show, but it seems to me that this could be because it's the Hellmouth most relevant to their lives, like when one refers to "the grocery store" or "the barber shop." It's not that you think that your grocery store is the only one that exists; it's just the only one in your current frame of reference.

On the other hand, that first episode is entitled Welcome to the Hellmouth. Not conclusive, but definitely a sign of what Joss is thinking. And we've never heard hide nor hair of any other Hellmouth anywhere else. As it's beginning to appear that this is a potentially important point for the unfolding season (unspoiled speculation on my part), what do people think? Is Sunnydale's the only one, or are there more?


[> In The Wish, -- Sophist, 10:06:39 11/01/02 Fri

the Wishverse Giles says that Sunnydale is located on "a" Hellmouth. I'm not sure whether this answers your question, though. There are lots of interpretive problems with that episode.

[> [> You beat me to it! Darn my slow connection! -- Arethusa, 10:14:53 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> Does this mean I get to choose the next category? -- Sophist, 12:48:23 11/01/02 Fri

I'll take Law in the Buffyverse for $100.

[> [> [> [> LOL -- Arethusa, 13:36:18 11/01/02 Fri

[> Re: Grammar and the Hellmouth -- Arethusa, 10:12:18 11/01/02 Fri

In "The Wish," Giles telephones Buffy's Watcher in Cleveland and says, "Well, it happens, you know, that, that Sunnydale is on a Hellmouth. (listens) It, it is so!"
So, there might be more.
quote by psyche

[> Sunnydale is the only hellmouth we told about! -- Robert, 10:29:12 11/01/02 Fri

[> A hellmouth -- alcibiades, 11:44:06 11/01/02 Fri

I think of it as one of several hellmouths. There are plenty of Celtic ones.

In and around NYC, people refer to NY as "the city." That doesn't mean there is only one city -- and even NYers know that in their hearts. It is just a major reference point -- a major hellmouth, not the only one.

In any case, all the hellmouths are no doubt connected on some plane. Remember the passage door from Willow back to the Hellmouth in Lessons.

[> [> Cordy Says... -- tricky_d, 12:17:01 11/01/02 Fri

in City Of Angel Cordy says,

"What, you think I don't know a vampire when I see one? I'm from Sunnydale we had our own Hellmouth"

which seems to imply that there is more than one.

[> [> [> And in the third episode, "The Witch," Giles says... -- Rob, 12:43:36 11/01/02 Fri

..."that's part of the thrill of living on a Hellmouth."

Again "a," not "the."


[> [> [> [> Buffy DB online disagrees... -- ZachsMind, 13:19:33 11/01/02 Fri

GILES: But that's the thrill of living on the Hellmouth! There's a veritable cornucopia of, of fiends and devils and, and ghouls to engage. (everyone looks at him) Pardon me for finding the glass half full.

[> [> [> [> [> And speaking of the Buffy DB -- ZachsMind, 14:07:13 11/01/02 Fri

I tried using it to find every use of the word "Hellmouth" so we could do a comparison, but it's frozen up on me. I may not be the only person who thought about doing that. This is what I grabbed before the DB went into lag purgatory.

References to Hellmouth
BUFFY: Welcome to the Hellmouth Petting Zoo. (Dead Man's Party)
GILES: ...that's the thrill of living on the Hellmouth! (The Witch)
SNYDER: We're on a Hellmouth. Sooner or later, people are gonna figure that out. (I Only Have Eyes for You)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Just checked the original shooting script for "The Witch". It says "a" Hellmouth. -- Rob, 16:08:57 11/01/02 Fri

[> Hellmouth, Hellmouth, who's got the Hellmouth? -- Random, 13:28:15 11/01/02 Fri

What the previous posters, as I'm sure has been mentioned before at some point in the board history, historically (well, mythologically anyhow), hellmouths were generally plural, from the multiple entrances of Greek myth (Homer mentions two in his obscure little epics, I believe, and there were others in Greek myth. You just had to know the right path) to the rather vague topography of Egyptain myth to the medieval passion plays where Hellmouths were a dime a dozen. The hellmouth -- in my interpretation -- wasn't necessarily the equivalent of the Gates of Hell. It had a certain metaphysical force to it, a dynamism that the Gates lacked. The hellmouth, as in the Buffyverse, was actually an extension of damnation onto the mortal plane. It was (and again, this is open to interpretation) more a conduit from earth to hell than a barrier set down right outside hell. Which is not to say that it was considered sentient in any way except in terms of being controlled by the devil. Metaphorical though it might be to us moderners, it had a certain very vivid reality to medieval Christians. Especially the laypeople who spent their time designing hellmouth sets and attending rather morbid plays that used them. Originally, hellmouths were decorated with demons and the like, but as the plague years took a grip on the later middle ages (the era of the danse macabre and the heyday of the inquisition and its focus on all-too-human evils), the decorations gradually transisted into symbols of mortality: corpses, skeletons, et cetera. Okay, I'm just writing to avoid work right now and have veered far from the original question. So, in summation, the hellmouth is not necessarily plural, but given its nature as (in my interpretion of medieval thought) an extrusion of rather than merely the portal to, hell, it seems reasonable that there would be more than one. After all, we can't have every would-be Faust, Orpheus, and Thor coming to Sunnydale just to find hell. It would be like Woodstock. additional note, however. I seem to recall that several monsters came to Sunnydale specifically to seek out its Hellmouth (the Master, for one, and it seems reasonable that this is why Balthazar et al came too), so Hellmouths must be pretty rare. Why travel to the New World if you have another Hellmouth a couple minor European countries over? Uggh, Now I'm gonna be puzzling over this all evening and, it being Friday, will probably be mixing alcohol with my ponderings. Not a safe combination.

[> [> I think there's a Hellmouth in Las Vegas -- Tyresius, 13:58:11 11/01/02 Fri

No proof from the BtVS standpoint - we just attract a lot of bizarro types. Plus, we're like the closest major city to Area 51 and all that super-top-secret-governement-stuff.

-says Tyresius, 26-year-Vegas-resident

[> Re: Grammar and the Hellmouth -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:02:31 11/01/02 Fri

I think we must first consider what "Hellmouth" means.

From several comments made by Giles, we know that there is a metaphysical boundry between our universe and the Hell dimension(s). The Hellmouth was described as a point where this barrier keeping Hell from literally pouring into Earth is at its weakest. It stands to reason that there could be other Hellmouths, but that maybe they've vanished with time and are considered quaint relics of the past. Another possibility is that a Hellmouth is like an urban legend to those familiar with the supernatural (like Watchers). They know that it is (meta)physically possible for there to be such a place in the world where the barrier between us and Hell is paper thin, but there's never been any definite proof that one actually exists. Kind of like life on other planets. I think this last theory is backed up by the fact that in The Wish, Giles has to convince another Watcher that Sunnydale is on a Hellmouth (so it's obviously not common knowledge, at least not in the Wishverse). And, in Welcome to the Hellmouth, he mentions discovering instances of paranormal activity gathering in Sunnydale by looking back through old town records. This suggests that Giles actually discovered the Hellmouth through research, and that previously the Council of Watchers was unaware of it.

[> [> Hellmouth vs. Dimensional Portal -- Tyresius, 16:10:39 11/01/02 Fri

What is the difference between a hellmouth and a dimensional portal?

According to Anya in Blood Ties, "There are thousands of demon [i.e. hell] dimensions. All different." Giles adds that they are "all pushing at the edges of this reality, trying to find a way in." So which hell dimension is the Sunnydale hellmouth tied to? Or is it tied to multiple dimensions?

Is the hellmouth like a dimensional portal? In Over The Rainbow on AtS - one such portal (leading to Pylea) is a "hot spot" where the psychic energy is tied to a geographical location and allows people to cross to another dimension. Possibly a hell dimension.

This is opposed to the passageway Sahjhan opened to Quortoth in "Forgiving" which used powerful magic to rip a hole through reality itself. Also different from the portal opened by Dawn as The Key - which was supposed to tear apart reality and the walls that seperate all the hell dimensions.

We've seen other ways to cross between dimensions - some demons seem to possess the skill naturally, sometimes its magical, and even death seems to be just a passage of the soul from one dimension to another. What's so special or unique about the thing that is in Sunnydale? It seems to be one of the big unanswered questions on AtVS. Since all the foreshadowy clues seem to point to the hellmouth in season 7, maybe we'll get some answers.

Personally, I like the theory I read several weeks ago that the hellmouth is a living being of some kind. If alive, how does it feed, grow, etc?

[> definately "a" Hellmouth -- Sheri, 15:28:24 11/01/02 Fri

There must be more than one hellmouth because we've seen Slayers in multiple locations. If Sunnydale had the only Hellmouth in existence, than why wouldn't the two slayers that we saw in FFL have been in Sunnydale. Instead, we see them in China and New York... so something about those places made it necessary for the Slayer to be there instead of in Sunnydale.

Ok, so MY question is: if there is more than one Hellmouth... why doesn't the CoW have the Slayer do a tour of duty between all of them?

About all I can come up with is that although there is more than one hellmouth, only one is active (or extremely active) at any given time.

I'm picturing the hellmouths being like geizers or volcanoes... all this baddy badness from the demon rhelm starts building up pressure, and badness starts to spew. Sunnydale is like Old Faithful... it's not the only hellmouth around... but it's probably the most popular for the badies at the given moment.

Demons, Humans and the Souled -- Deb, 12:48:34 11/01/02 Fri

I had a dream this morning. If humans with souls can act with evil intent, and we all know people like this, then why can't demons act with good intentions? We've seen friendly demons, helpful demons, nonthreatening demons, and demons who act with good intent. (Please, nobody throw in "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." ) Demons are fallen angels, and there is a hierarchy even here. Much of what we learn as being "good" and "bad" is imprinted within our personality by the age of six. The personality then remains, basically, the same.

So we have one "good soul" (i.e. William stating he might be a bad poet but he is a good man.) And put a lower in the hierarchy, low-esteemed demon inside, and what do you get? Spike.

I was also reading through the archives a bit and came across something from 2000. Now, if I can remember what. . . Ah! Spike killing two slayers and "death wishes."

I am of the belief that William was in no way happy about being vamped, and I don't believe that Spike's keen insight into human nature arises from the demon but from the imprinting upon William's personality. Even bloody bad poets are self-aware and "watchers" of human nature. Spike's comment that all Slayers have a death wish, and his killing of two slayers might not be an act of "evil" so much as making room for a Slayer who does not relish the hunt and the kill. If a Slayer relishes the hunt and kill, then the very qualities that go into a Slayer are nullified, and the Slayer is no longer performing a "service" or "calling" but has become a hunter, and a "evil" killer in her own right. The Slayer, like the hunter, cannot cherish the kill for killing sake lest the hunted turn on the Slayer and become the hunters.

When Joyce died, Buffy sat on the steps outside and was crying, mourning the death and loss of her mother. Spike was coming to kill her, but when he sees her grieving, he sits down, pats her on the back, and just sits quietly. Buffy is not exhibiting a "death wish" here, but is mourning a death.

Furthermore, actually changing topics a bit, Spike kept the scar that the first slayer he killed gave him and he kept the black duster of the second slayer. Everyone seems to believe that these are trophies, but what if they are examples of his identification with the Slayers? He's putting on the costume of a slayer. Thus, Spike shares the death wish and the calling of the Slayer. The personality cannot stop the demon from feeding, but it can force the demon to wait until an "appropriate" meal is found. Spike can't harm humans, but he can harm demons, and the only demons he meets up with are "evil." So he get to play the role of slayer alongside the Slayer herself. Of all the characters, Spike probably knows the most about what a slayer is and what a slayer is not.

Any thoughts?

[> Many many many disagreements -- Charlemagne20, 14:08:10 11/01/02 Fri

Personally Joss has been quite clear on his demon policy as it stands now.

Demons are Drawn to evil the way humans are drawn towards Good. Roughly that means perchantage wise there probably is an even number of demons who are 'good' as we have in our society demons who are iredeemably horrendous.

The Buddist Demon that Angel kills in Season 2 who was a 'good demon' was for instance the equivalent of Charles Manson or Jeffery Dahlmer for demons.

I peronally disgaree also with the 'by 6 years old' point as a psychology major. We change a great deal, usually by six though we have a set environment that we cling to and our personality functions in...a very distinct difference

Next Spike was in fact EXTREMELY GIDDY JOY JUMPING happy about being Vamped. Angel was the one who seemed to loath being a Vampire, it just led him to greater acts of carnage against society.

Spike loved Drucilla, he finally got revenge on his critics (railroad spike through the skull), and many other nutty business...

He killed the Slayers I think because he suffers from pressure of society, like with the Scoobies Spike needs a pack to operate around and the respect of them.

He got respect from Vampires by killing Slayers.

Also take note Demons in the Buffyverse are 'several' at the least removed from being fallen angels. The First corrupted the original Demon peoples but they've more or less incarnated into evil since then

[> [> Re: Many many many disagreements -- Purple Tulip, 14:59:37 11/02/02 Sat

"Next Spike was in fact EXTREMELY GIDDY JOY JUMPING happy about being Vamped. Angel was the one who seemed to loath being a Vampire, it just led him to greater acts of carnage against society."

----Have to disagree with you here. Angel only loathed being a vampire after he got his soul--before that he was the extremely giddy one about being a vamp. And Spike did not seek out being vamped, but once he was he too enjoyed it, but now that he's got the soul we see that that's all changed, that he's very much in pain and conflict with himself.

Also, in Deb's initial post, she said that Buffy sat on her porch when Joyce died and Spike came to kill her but ended up comforting her. Actually, that all happened at the end of Fool for Love when Buffy first learned that her mother was sick, not during The Body when she died.

[> What Joss said about the Soul -- Rufus, 16:15:49 11/01/02 Fri

The Paley Festival, March 30, 2001

Audience Member: "I'd like to know what your definition of a soul is? And what distinguishes Angel from the other vampires, because it becomes clear from both Buffy and Angel that vampires have human emotions and human attachments. So is that a conscience? And then what separates vampires from humans if it is a conscience?"

JW: "Um, very little. (laugh) Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. So they can love someone, they can attach to someone, they can actually want to do things that will make that person happy in the way they know they would. The way Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on Buffy, is getting more and more completely conflicted. But basically his natural bent is towards doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as in most humans, most humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it. I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle."

[> confused episode -- Robert, 19:44:02 11/01/02 Fri

>>> When Joyce died, Buffy sat on the steps outside and was crying, mourning the death and loss of her mother. Spike was coming to kill her, but when he sees her grieving, he sits down, pats her on the back, and just sits quietly.

I believe that you are referring to Fool For Love. However, Joyce was not dead. At the end of this episode, Joyce revealed to Buffy that she was going into the hospital because a shadow was found on her CT scan. Buffy sat on the rear stoop and weeped. Spike arrived with the intent of killing her with a shotgun, but took pity instead. Joyce wasn't dead until the end of I Was Made To Love You.

[> Re: Demons, Humans and the Souled -- Deb, 20:58:27 11/01/02 Fri

When one can not step out of the "world view" of an artistic creator and find other meanings of value based upon one's own schema, then criticism is digresively disguised as obsession. The funtion of criticism is to find new meanings within a text to expand knowledge within a field of study. If one limits self to a creator's paradigm or model of a fictional world, then all we have is fandom and worship of the creator. This disturbs me sometimes when some people do not seem to be able to escape the ever changing (kind of like the school's basement) "rules" as laid out by JW. This is ironic in that a good deal of the show is about the benefits of research and the critical thinking that is needed in ambiguous situations. The show practically opens its arms and begs viewers to think for themselves, yet most always return to what JW "currently says." Does this mean that I cannot present my own interpretation, for group consideration, of a Van Gogh painting, or a Edgar Allen Poe short story, because I do not know what the creator intended to communicate? I don't think Buffy or Angel are about "following" but about "leading." This is demonstrated when the characters step out of the preconceived roles that JW originally created by making decisions and taking actions that change that conception.

This is not meant as bashing anyone. It is just something to think about. Television shows have their personal uses and gratifications for people, but to escape within a fantasy with no powers of critical reasoning is escapist at the very least.

[> [> Re: Demons, Humans and the Souled -- Rufus, 22:54:11 11/01/02 Fri

Maybe if you were a bit more specific about what you think any of us said. I gave you a direct quote from an interview with Joss at the Paley festival......that quote can be take a few diffent ways. That of course leaving the writers with the out of saying we told you so already. That fact that Joss speaks of behavior, even soulless demon behavior existing along a spectrum leaves a whole lotta wiggle room for the personality of the person who once was to shine through. It just leaves them less likely to be able to behave in ways that soulled beings would consider right.

[> [> Hermeneutics -- Sophist, 07:45:20 11/02/02 Sat

Just thought I'd throw in a fancy word to catch everyone's attention.

We've talked a lot here about the problems of interpretation. I think everyone here acknowledges that each individual is free to interpret an episode, or the whole series, pretty much however he/she wants. You can expect, though, that others will disagree with you.

Such disagreement isn't intended to disparage your interpretation or to substitute "fandom" in place of interpretation. It's intended to generate discussion about various issues: what qualifies as "evidence" in the discussion and why; what standards of interpretation are being employed; what life experiences lead to this interpretation; etc.

Probably everyone here has a slightly different view about the importance of authorial intent. Some, if I understand correctly, give it no weight at all. Others give it a great deal. My own view is that we can't ignore the author's intent, but that it's never controlling. I'd like to come up with a clever numerical scale for our varying degrees of belief in authorial intent, but I can't. Maybe OnM can help me out here.

Stepping out of the worldview of the artist, as you urge, is itself an interpretive choice. There is no right or wrong to it. Nor should it disturb you if others choose not to do so in a particular case. Don't worry -- they undoubtedly will another time and you can gleefully point it out.

[> [> [> Exactly -- Rahael, 08:16:12 11/02/02 Sat

I tend to value authorial intent quite highly simply because I want to see what the author sees - I don't want to miss anything. But I also overlay authorial intent with my own readings, readings which I value highly because that's what resonated with me, that's what gave it meaning for me.

And, btw, I'd also have to say that it's my belief that those who value authorial intent are not sheep afraid of the brave new worlds of complexity and multiple interpretations.

Now I'll have to say that I disagreed quite strongly with Deb's initial post. Not because I stick religiously to what Joss says about souls - since the entire metaphysics of souls and whatnot in the Buffyverse strikes me as confused and sometimes meaningless -

but because I was puzzled that even when Spike was murdering someone he was displaying some amazing sensitive poetic side to himself?

He was doing them a favour? when he covered himself with the Chinese SLayers blood as an aphrodisiac and then had sex with Drusilla? Guess he knew more about the Chinese Slayer's intimate desires and wants than this viewer.

[> [> [> [> Re: Exactly -- Deb, 12:14:35 11/02/02 Sat

"Now I'll have to say that I disagreed quite strongly with Deb's initial post. Not because I stick religiously to what Joss says about souls - since the entire metaphysics of souls and whatnot in the Buffyverse strikes me as confused and sometimes meaningless -"

I was not commenting on any person is particular in my first post. What you state above is absolutely correct. The concept of the soul according to JW is "confused and sometimes meaningless." Yet, it is a concept that is very, very, important: the vampire with a soul. So, we are left to determine the role of the "soul" on our own, and since a vamp. having a soul is important in Buffyverse, just why is it important?

What happens to a person's soul once they are turned? If they were a "good" person who met the qualifications of whatever religion to not be sent to hell, what happens to their soul? Do they go into a limbo, go to a heaven, stay in the body and so, maybe, have some influence over the demon?

It would help me immensely is someone would tell me what this prophesy is concerning a Slayer and a vampire with a soul. (Which implies that the soul leaves the body, and does not remain to influence the demon.)

Any enlightenment would be appreciated. Now I realize that the prophecy thing is a creation of JW, but everything else is left to whatever. I've been reading vampire folklore, as opposed to vampire fiction, and well before Stoker's "Dracula" a person's soul was changed into a demon who inhabited the body (and didn't take really good care of it either for that matter.) There were ritualistic "second" deaths (killings) to safe-guard against vampires. Dig up a body and if there were any signs of "vampire" (which there were hundreds of signs) then kill the corpse and send the "soul/demon" to hell. Graveyards were only temporary "resting" places until it could be determined that a body was or was not really a vampire demon. There were some cases where whole graveyards were dug up and this ritualistic killing was done. (During the day of course.) The body(ies) was then destroyed completely to ensure the demon had no place to live.

So if a vampire with a soul is a "unusual" thing in Buffyverse, and JW does not have an explanation for where all the souls of the people turned are, and some people consider JW's concept of souls as being "meaningless" then where do the souls go. A soul is like energy. It can't be destroyed it can just be changed. Also why, then, is a vamp with a soul so important in Buffyverse?

My coming from a religious background of "shoot first and don't bother answering questions" has left me rather clueless.

As for the "possible" reason why Spike killed the two slayers. I'm not saying it has much merit, but Nature has a series of "checks and balances." The Slayer is part of Nature. It's not the Council, which is not part of Nature but assists the Slayers, but what part of Nature "checks and balances" the Slayers when they become killers who lust for the hunt and kill? According to mythology, the hunted turn on the hunter and the hunter becomes the hunted. This could be taken a couple of ways.

1. Vampires turn on the vampires who sired them.
2. Vampires turn on the Slayer when the Slayer forgets her "calling" and lives for the hunt, so to speak. When a Slayer lives for the hunt, then there lies the truth of Slayers having a "death wish." With a death wish, the calling is lost, and the Slayer is no longer effective.

These ideas were first presented, or questioned, on this board in 2000, but never really speculated upon because of JW being the mind behind Buffyverse.

[> [> [> [> [> Souls -- Sophist, 13:26:07 11/02/02 Sat

What happens to a person's soul once they are turned?

We know from Angel (the episode) that the human soul does not remain in the body. It goes somewhere else, never specified. Wherever it may be, magic can call it back to the orginal body.

I'll leave the prophecy to those who watch AtS.

I'm not saying it has much merit, but Nature has a series of "checks and balances." The Slayer is part of Nature. It's not the Council, which is not part of Nature but assists the Slayers, but what part of Nature "checks and balances" the Slayers when they become killers who lust for the hunt and kill?

I don't see any reason to suppose that the concept of natural selection (not "checks and balances") is at work here. Slayers and vampires appear to be mystical creations, not natural ones. In any case, it would be unlikely that the prey would "check" the hunter, any more than the gazelle would "check" the lion by killing it. It could happen on occasion, but that's not really how the competition works.

Nor would I take at face value Spike's claim that the dead slayers "wanted" to die. That may have been Spike's perspective, and it may even be true, but the mere fact that he said it doesn't make it so.

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