November 2002 posts

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Poor Troll! The moral ambiguity of Olaf -- Charles Phipps, 14:00:46 11/01/02 Fri

I was most intrigued in my mind by Joss's decision to portray Olaf the Troll as a very sympathetic character in the flashbacks to Anya's past.

Olaf was definately a lout as things go to him enjoying his brew, his breeding, and his fighting of the Trolls which menaced the village but he seemed to honestly love Anya even if he did have a wandering eye.

Certainly I didn't think Anya's vengeance on him that resulted in his being exiled from the village and turned into a monster that he killed on a daily basis to protect the village was even remotely justified.

With nothing but centuries ahead of him of Trollish urges (look at what happened with Giles) you can't really blame him I think for what he turned into

[> Re: Poor Troll! The moral ambiguity of Kubiak - - Rochefort, 12:01:08 11/02/02 Sat

Yes, he was sympathetic. Made me remember fondly the old Parker Lewis days.

Attn: Masq, or anyone who might want to answer a question re: Angel, season 1 -- Rob, 21:46:31 11/01/02 Fri

I have a question about demons vs. demon/human hybrids that I've been mulling over and I thought you might have the answer (or an answer) to.

In "Room W/ A Vu," the demon going after Doyle sneers at Angel, "You're a vampire.How come you're helping a little demon half-breed?" implying that Angel, as a vamp, is lowering himself by helping out a demon half-breed.

And yet in "Hero," the Scourge leader scoffs at Angel, when he pretends that he wants to join them that "You're one to talk, vampire. Yours is the lowest of all the half breeds-- "

I've been watching all the eps in a marathon for the past two days, so this difference struck me as kind of odd, but perhaps it's just a little flaw that most people didn't notice b/c the first mention was a very quick line. Or maybe there's something more. Is it because the Scourge are so fanatic they count vamps as half-breeds, whereas other demon sects aren't so discriminating? Of course, that doesn't fully make sense. Doyle was born partly from demon blood, which puts him higher on the scale than a vamp, which is basically a demon spirit inhabiting the former body of a human. And that's evidenced by the fact that the Scourge places vamps on the lowest scale.

I really don't want to sound too nitpicky, because I really loved "Hero" favorite ep so far, but I am curious as to whether this discussion has come up here before, and what answers were reached. Since these are the little things that keep me up at night analyzing Joss' shows! Maybe, Masq, you can point me to an analysis of yours or page on your site with some answers. I read your page on "Demons" in the Metaphysics section, and your "Hero" analysis already.

Was the earlier line in "Room W/ A Vu" a flub?

Also, I'm interested in demons in general. You referenced Anya in your "Hero" notes, saying in "Graduation Day" that all demons who walk the earth are tainted. Does this mean that every demon we've seen on BtVS and AtS are not 100% pure except for the Scourge, and a few other exceptions? Or most of them are not? I assume by "demons that walk the earth" she meant ones born and living there, and doesn't count all transdimensional demons who are summoned by spells, etc., since they originated elsewhere.

Do my questions have any answers? lol


[> Re: Attn: Masq, or anyone who might want to answer a question re: Angel, season 1 -- Apophis, 23:04:38 11/01/02 Fri

I would assume Griff (I think that was his name) was questioning why a vampire would care about a demon (no matter what the ratio) since they don't always get along. Generally, when vampires and demons work together, the vampires are the demons' minions. Griff was wondering why any vampire would care about what happened to any demon.

[> [> Re: Attn: Masq, or anyone who might want to answer a question re: Angel, season 1 -- Rob, 23:19:19 11/01/02 Fri

Okay, I feel silly making such a big deal now. That does make sense. I may have just been misinterpreting Griff(?)'s sentence. Vamps are usually inferior to demons, but Angel would be considered superior to one like Doyle, who usually only uses his human form, probably seen as a weakness in the demon world. This guy didn't know Angel had a soul, so he probably just questions why a vamp (evil) would be helping a demon who seems to stress his humanity. And also, like you said, just the fact that a demon and a vamp were helping each other out might strike suspicion.

Thanks for the help. Continuity errors gives me belly rumblings. Glad that one's all nice and patched up now, so I can go to sleep now in peace!


[> [> [> Re: Attn: Masq, or anyone who might want to answer a question re: Angel, season 1 -- JM, 06:24:13 11/02/02 Sat

I think there may be a distinction between how the term was used in the two instances. Doyle is half human -- which also implies souled -- kinda like Gru. Vampires aren't half human, but physically, at least in our dimension, they are tied to humanity and the human condition. For that bunch of fanatics that probably equals taint. I've always been confused by Anya's insistance that true demons largely don't exist in this dimension, they're all a form of hybrid. But perhaps the explanation is that they're not hybrids with human parts (which seems in all case to convey a soul along with) but other mortal creatures. Don't know for sure. Remember though that it's pretty much flabotunim to ME, though. They really only care about the emotional truth.

[> [> Agree with Apophis here -- Masq, 06:54:22 11/02/02 Sat

It was established in dialogue that demons and vampires don't like each other, I think the episode was "Where the Wild Things Are". Buffy and Riley find a demon and a vampire tag-team fighting and comment on it to Giles, who tells them, yes, it is odd, because demons and vampires normally don't get along.

Also, from our perspective, the Scourge don't look any more "pure" as demons than any other species does. Anya mentioned in "Graduation" that "pure" demons were bigger, and I think the idea was that the Mayor was going to turn into a pure demon. If that's the case, Olvikan (the giant snake!) is the best example we have of a "pure" demon.

I think what the scourge was getting down on wasn't the physical make-up of demons, but the psychological. The Lister demon species in "Hero" were benevolent and harmless, as is Doyle's species. And vampires, while not harmless, pretty much reek of humanity, and carry many of the traits of their previous human lives.

That's what the Scourge was trying to wipe out of demonkind.

[> [> [> PS -- Masq, 06:57:13 11/02/02 Sat

Hero is one episode that always makes me *cry*!!

I really liked Doyle. I was really bummed when he was gone.

Of course, so much has happened since then, and there have been so many great new characters, including all the changes in Wesley, that I'm OK with the fact that he's gone.

[> [> [> [> Me, too... -- Rob, 08:29:41 11/02/02 Sat

I tried to fight the tears, but they came...just like they did for "I Will Remember You." In "Hero," it was the look on Cordy's face that got me. In IWRY, it was that damn Christophe Beck's Buffy/Angel Love Theme...As if I could ever withstand that without crying! And then Buffy starts crying...and then Angel starts crying.'ve seen it. ;o)


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Me, too... -- Masq, 09:22:53 11/02/02 Sat

Well, I didn't cry in "IWRY", but in Hero, it's that damned video tape of Doyle that gets ya right in the heart. At the end, when Angel and Cordelia are watching it, and you hear everything Doyle said earlier in a completely different light.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Me, too... -- Rob, 14:50:54 11/02/02 Sat

"Am I done?"



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll add my own *sob* - loved Hero! -- Scroll, 20:32:00 11/02/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> I disliked Doyle -- CW, 09:28:26 11/02/02 Sat

But, I thought it was great that they gave him such a classy exit.

[> [> [> [> [> I thought Doyle was great, wish he could have stuck around longer. -- Rob, 10:22:58 11/02/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Doyle Rocked -- tricky_d, 10:24:07 11/02/02 Sat

IMO he is the most realized of all the non-Angel male characters on the show. You get the feeling that a part of Angel and a Part of Cordy died when he did. Like it forced them to grow up a little. As much as I like Gunn and Fred, I would trade Gunn or Lorne for Doyle anyday.

just MTB.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Doyle Rocked -- Slain, 11:49:59 11/02/02 Sat

Easy on the abbreviations, there. You'll force me to look them up. ;)

Doyle did really interest me, because he was the first real demon hyrid we'd seen on the show, and because he seemed to be a link in the new and interesting world of demon society in AtS. But I think ultimately his demise was more interesting than his life, for me! put up the current list of all of the rest of this year's Buffy eps, and air dates -- Rob, 12:11:03 11/02/02 Sat

Subject to change of course:

Here are the names of all the rest of the Buffy eps this year, according to Can't tell you about the accuracy or lack thereof.

128) Him
129) Conversations with Dead People
130) Sleeper
131) Points of Origin
132) Points of Origin, Part Two
133) Training Montage
134) Sticks and Stones
135) Of Vamps and Men
136) Pipe Dream
137) In the Land of the Blind
138) Don't Tread On Me
139) Parthenogenesis
140) Point and Counter Point
141) Glory
142) Duel of the Fates
143) Watch This
144) Shut Your Mouth


[> OUCH!!! (S7 broadcast schedule spoiler) -- Vickie, 12:23:40 11/02/02 Sat

If we really have to wait from 11/26 to 1/7 for the second part of a two-parter, I predict much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the board.

And that's BEFORE the demonic alter-egos kick in.

[> [> I'm not sure how accurate Buffyworld's airing schedule is... -- Rob, 12:30:41 11/02/02 Sat

Because it has the season ending at the beginning of April, and that just won't happen, because they'll want to finish the season off in May sweeps. That's why I didn't put them in my post, even though I forgot to take that out of my subject line!

The two parter name seems very intriguing. Perhaps finally we'll learn the origins of the Slayer? Hey, a guy can dream!


[> Very interesting titles! -- HonorH, 12:30:31 11/02/02 Sat

Especially "Training Montage." Seems to me to hearken back to OMWF. Will we get more music? And Giles singing? Please, pretty please?

[> [> Re: Very interesting titles! -- Rob, 12:33:05 11/02/02 Sat

I know! Some really cool names! Like I just posted in my above response, I'm keepin' my fingers crossed that "Points of Origin" reveals the origin story of the could would that be?!? Oh, and later in the season, the ep entitled "Glory." Yeeeee! I hope we get to see some more of our favorite hellgoddess in that one. And "Training Montage" may be one of the bestest ep names ever. I hope at least some of these are accurate!


[> [> [> Re: Very interesting titles! (spoilers) -- KKC, 14:32:57 11/02/02 Sat

I find the title of the finale very interesting. Aren't those Willow's words to the VOTW (victim of the week) in 'Selfless' from two weeks ago, when she briefly reverts back to her evil persona? Maybe we see more of Dark Willow later on.

Of course, these titles are empty speculation at worst, and unfinalized working script titles at best, which could be subject to change later on. Come get me when there's an episode titled 'Land Without Shrimp.' :)

-KKC, who thinks that would be the episode with Jonathan's death scene. :)

[> [> [> [> Re: Very interesting titles! (spoilers) -- Juliet, 19:05:17 11/02/02 Sat

Love the sig tagline. It adds a nice touch. :-)

From my Earth Science knowledge, an earthquake has a point of origin, doesn't it? And since there are many of them...

[> [> [> [> Re: Very interesting titles! (spoilers) -- Cheryl, 19:49:23 11/02/02 Sat

"I find the title of the finale very interesting. Aren't those Willow's words to the VOTW (victim of the week) in 'Selfless' from two weeks ago, when she briefly reverts back to her evil persona? Maybe we see more of Dark Willow later on."

You know, my first thought when I saw that title was that it was referring to the Hellmouth. Purely speculation, of course, but can't you just hear Buffy quipping that, as she deals the final blow to the Hellmouth?

[> I dunno... -- ZachsMind, 12:59:23 11/02/02 Sat

I wouldn't lay money down for any of them past "Points of Origin." Nice titles, but only time will tell.

[> [> The One Eyed Man Is King...(watch out for major spoilery goodness) -- tricky_d, 14:18:33 11/02/02 Sat

The old saying goes "In The Land Of The Blind the one eyed man is king." Who wants to bet me that we will see a major character with an eye-patch coming. Also fits ironically with the next-to-the-last title Watch This.

And how about that Parthenogenesis. Websters online has it as:

par·the·no·gen·e·sis Pronunciation Key (pärth-n-jn- ss)

A form of reproduction in which an unfertilized egg develops into a new individual, occurring commonly among insects and certain other arthropods.

and notice it comes before the Glory Ep. Perhaps they are going to go back to their orignal idea of having Xander be the vessel for Glory. Some piece of her she left behind, gestates in him, forcing Buffy to have to Kill him like she Had to kill Anya? Making Anya's little quip about "which of your friends have you not tried to kill lately", seem all the more prophetic.

I am giddy with anticipation.

[> [> [> Parthenogenesis is vaguely similar to "virgin birth." -- ZachsMind, 17:28:39 11/02/02 Sat

This reinforces the "female empowerment" angle for the season. While not synonymous with "virgin birth," parthenogenesis is basically the scientific term for it. This brings to mind the possibility of either dealing with an insect or plant-like species which is sentient and reproduces in this manner (ick) or they're gonna play with metaphor. Or maybe they'll play with the Dawn/Buffy DNA thing. Another version of the definition of the word could be something like, "[human] reproduction without the use of a male." Technically, when they took Buffy's DNA to make the green glowing thingy into a Dawn, that's precisely what they did. Dawn's the mystical equivalent of a test tube baby. Neither Buffy's father or mother had direct involvement in the making of Dawn. Technically she's kinda like Buffy's clone. A modernized "virgin birth."

Weeeelll, okay, Buffy's not a virgin.. but that's just nitpicking. =)

[> [> [> [> Afterlife -- darrenK, 20:09:24 11/02/02 Sat

For what it's worth parthenogenesis was the term used in the episode Afterlife for when something is magically created as a by-product of some greater magical working.

Later, they also used the term in an Angel episode; it was the David Fury episode with all the day-glo shrimp.


[> [> [> [> [> That was Thaumatogenesis -- Apophis, 20:22:07 11/02/02 Sat

[> [> [> My take on "Land of the blind" and "Points of Origin" (Spoilers?) -- Q, 22:23:24 11/02/02 Sat

Gloy once made a comment about being the "original one eyed chicklet in the kingdom of the blind" or something like that. If the "land of the blind" title AND the "Glory" title are the real deal, I see some MAJOR Glory action at the end of the season. I have heard that season 5 was originally going to be the end, but then they kept going. If Joss originally had an ending in mind that involved Glory, it is very possible that he would bring it back for the true ending.

Points of Origin could involve earthquakes, the Hellmouth, AND the origin of the slayer, but I say also be looking for the origin of THE KEY.


[> Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! MAJOR NON-SPOILERS FOR EP 137!!! -- HonorH (with psychic hat on), 14:28:02 11/02/02 Sat

Pre-pre-release blurb for ep titled "In the Land of the Blind":

"In this daring Joss Whedon written/directed episode, a mysterious force casts a spell of blindness over the entire city of Sunnydale. To illustrate this for the audience, half the episode will be a completely blank screen with only voices, sound effects, and music giving clues as to what's happening with the Slayer and her friends. Do I smell an Emmy for Mr. Whedon?"

[> [> LOLOLOL!!! -- Vickie, 14:31:46 11/02/02 Sat

[> [> HonorH, you always crack me up! LOL! -- Rahael, 14:38:09 11/02/02 Sat

[> [> BtVS: The Radio Show?!? ;o) LOL! -- Rob, 14:38:10 11/02/02 Sat

[> [> And best of all, this will be the very first Buffy episode... -- OnM, 14:44:50 11/02/02 Sat

... aired in high-definition!


[> [> [> Cool! -- CW, 15:21:44 11/02/02 Sat

Instead of NBC's must see TV; UPN's no see HDTV!

[> [> Alternate title for "Land of the Blind" - - ZachsMind, 17:31:28 11/02/02 Sat

Once More With-- OUCH! Okay! Who stepped on my foot?

[> Where do they get these lists? -- Masquerade, 15:11:04 11/02/02 Sat

From what I understand of the ME writing process, at this point, they might be breaking story for episode 12 or 13--i.e., planning what will happen in the episode, not even writing it yet. So it goes without saying that stuff after that isn't written, much less given titles or even working titles.

Also, at this point, they understand how the season will go in broad strokes, but they haven't painted in the details of exactly HOW it will happen. And things might change down the line--actors who are on the show or who are slated to be on might bail, season 8 might happen or not, and that will change season 7.

I think this list is pretty bogus, myself.

[> [> Hey! Stop raining on my parade! -- HonorH (pouting), 17:18:06 11/02/02 Sat

I'm in the very serious process of coming up with TV Guide blurbs for all of these, thank you very much, and I shan't have my fun spoiled by piddling facts.

[> [> [> My guess.. -- ZachsMind, 17:41:18 11/02/02 Sat

This list was purposefully "leaked" from ME to someone in order to annoy us spoiler-types. I'll hypothesize that "Him" and "Points of Origin" may be accurate. I have less faith in "Sleeper" and "Dead People." The rest of them would make great titles for episodes but I'm not buying into it.

"Glory"? That's just wishful thinking. I'll be happy to eat my words if I'm wrong, but I honestly don't see them bringing her back, unless it's in the way they brought her back in the first episode of this season, as one of Spike's delusions.

I'm also starting to think a lot of the rumors flying around this past week or so are just to keep us spoiler types on our toes. Tara may not be written out of possibly appearing, but if/when she does, ME wants it to be a surprise. So they're throwing us off the scent. I recall an interview with SMG once where she said in the off season every year she's been thinking she didn't wanna go back, then she DOES go back and while in the thick of taping Buffy eps she has the time of her life. So her waffling on a season eight may just be an attempt to juice up her contract, or more misinfo from the ME guys. SMG could just be playing fickle and they all have full intentions of coming back next season.

It's hard to keep an engine like Buffy running when people keep looking under their hood, y'know whut ah mean Vern? You could say they're playing games with us. There may not be a season eight, but they're gonna keep us guessing about that right up to the last ep.

[> [> [> [> Actually (title spoiler only) -- HonorH, 17:49:54 11/02/02 Sat

"Conversations with Dead People" is the real deal, according to TV Guide. It's set to air in two weeks.

[> [> [> [> Future spoilers above -- Masq, 17:55:23 11/02/02 Sat

[> More major non-spoilers: TV Guide blurbs for the rest of the season -- HonorH (really getting into this psychic thing), 17:47:45 11/02/02 Sat

Since that first one was so much fun, why don't we try the rest?

128) Him

Buffy wakes up one morning to find she's been transformed into a man. So, for that matter, has Sunnydale's entire female populace. Xander's appalled, Dawn's disgusted, Willow's intrigued, and Anya's depressed.

129) Conversations with Dead People

Buffy finds Spike a therapist while Willow and Anya take a census of Sunnydale's vampire population.

130) Sleeper

A nefarious demon casts a sleeping spell over Sunnydale, but his plans are confounded when the Spirit of Tara turns Buffy into a somnambulist. Can she truly beat demons in her sleep?

131) Points of Origin

Xander researches his family tree in order to get a better handle on his issues. Meanwhile, Dawn seeks the truth about Principal Wood.

132) Points of Origin, Part Two

Willow must seek out a catatonic Xander's mind after he discovers that he's the descendent of Liam's love child.

133) Training Montage

Another musical episode! Buffy takes a side job teaching aerobics, and the interaction of cursed peppy music with her Slayer psyche soon has everyone in town dancing.

134) Sticks and Stones

Dawn gets into an screaming fight with a girl at school, and her Key nature, which has been coming to the fore, causes everyone in Sunnydale to suddenly and uncontrollably start insulting each other.

135) Of Vamps and Men

The Spirit of Tara shows up again, this time to take Buffy on a "Christmas Carol"-esque tour of her disastrous love life.

136) Pipe Dream

Buffy, Buffy, everywhere! Spike's improving mental health takes a turn for the worst when he suddenly sees Buffy's face on every girl he looks at.

137) In the Land of the Blind

A mysterious force strikes the town of Sunnydale blind, including the Slayer. Half the episode will be a blank screen with only voices, sound effects, and music giving hints as to what's happening.

138) Don't Tread On Me

Sunnydale High develops a personality and finds itself rather hurt that people walk all over it all day. Buffy sends for Spike's therapist to calm the piqued building's nerves.

139) Parthenogenesis

All the Scoobies are beside themselves as they each divide into two beings: one naughty, and one nice.

140) Point and Counter Point

Sunnydale High's debate team, which Dawn is a member of, is cursed with being unable to agree with anyone either at school or at home. Buffy doesn't notice.

141) Glory

The Most Whiny One is back! This time, though, she doesn't have a permanent body and is forced to jump from one to another through the entire episode. Xander goes catatonic again when he awakens to find himself in a strapless red dress and high heels.

142) Duel of the Fates

Andrew and Jonathan are back, having turned themselves into real, live Jedi knights in the meantime. Can they, with the Slayer, defeat Glory and Xander's evil half (which escaped in ep. 139) before they destroy the world?

143) Watch This

Giles is back, and he's bad. It's Buffy vs. Ripper in a duel to the death.

144) Shut Your Mouth

Glory, Evil Xander, Ripper, and Andrew the Sith face off against the Scoobies. Or at least they would if Ripper could get the rest of them to just shut the heck up.


Disclaimer: if the above bears any resemblance to reality whatsoever, I shall die of shock. Bury me with my shoes on, will you?

[> [> Re: More major non-spoilers: TV Guide blurbs for the rest of the season -- Masq, 17:59:36 11/02/02 Sat

"Willow must seek out a catatonic Xander's mind after he discovers that he's the descendent of Liam's love child."

I *can't* stop laughing!!

[> [> [> Re: More major non-spoilers: TV Guide blurbs for the rest of the season -- Juliet, 19:29:26 11/02/02 Sat

Lights up. Willow does the same spell she did in Weight of The World and finds...

...Xander sitting on his mind-couch in the exact same position.

He looks up at her and whispers in a horrified tone:

"I'm related to Deadboy?"

[> [> [> ROFLMAO! -- Rob, 19:42:36 11/02/02 Sat

[> Very Very Skeptical -- darrenK, 20:33:27 11/02/02 Sat

Not to be a spoil-sport, or in this case, a spoiler-sport, but I really doubt all the titles passed Sleeper.

For one thing, why after years and years of making two-part event episodes that pull people to the show during sweeps would they suddenly make a two-parter where the second part, presumably the resolution of some cliff-hanger, was not only after sweeps, but in January?

Half of season 7's scripts shouldn't even be written yet. The script dates for the last 11 episodes of past years range from November to well into the next year, why would they title the episodes before writing them?

Not to mention that even if they have titled them, only the writers would know the titles for some of the last episodes since production work wouldn't have started on them yet, meaning that the writers themselves would have to be the source of the leak.

Personally, I think that we're looking at a very fake set of spoilers.


[> Re: the next 4 episodes according to Psyche -- jk, 21:05:54 11/02/02 Sat

This list doesn't seem credible at all, esp. since episode titles are rarely fixed so far in advance; and I think that would be especially true now, when the future of the show is so much in doubt, and the writers may have to make changes to accommodate contracts that are up in the air now.

According to Psyche , the next four episodes are:

128. Him
129. Don't Look Down
130. Primal Fear
131. Soulthief

[> [> Hmmm....While I don't know if I believe that that list is accurate... -- Rob, 23:52:13 11/02/02 Sat far, every place I've been to has said the next eps are, in order, "Him," "Conversations with Dead People," and "Sleeper."

While Buffyworld's list is, in most likelihood, inaccurate, Psyche's list might be also.


Slouching towards a family framework in ATS/Cordy and Connor -- alcibiades, 19:58:47 11/02/02 Sat

Slouching towards Bethlehem begins in an interesting way. Connor comes across a nuclear family in trouble, dad, mom, alienated son. He kind of wants to help and kind of wants to relate to them, but his presence, lone and threatening and alienated just sets off their alarm bells. To them, he seems one of the night time dangers they are hoping to avoid. Connor challenges the father about the inadequate help he provides his family, helps the mother, since it's women he relates to best (so far) and can't figure out how to relate to the boy his own age -- the first boy his own age we have seen him interact with. The boy interestingly is portrayed as too cowardly to help his own mother.

This encouter with a family strikes a nerve in Connor, because the next we see him, he is breaking into a window at the Hyperion, and crawling into his father's empty hotel.

The imagery of crawling through a window is striking -- the first moment that Stephen/Connor ever acknowledged any relationship to Angel as a father, was when Angel stood up and took bullets meant for him, and the two of them jumped together through a window. Furthermore, people framed in windows is a technique used over and over on Angel to point out who is family.

So, Connor sneaking back in the window OTOneH, represents Connor's desire to sneak back into his family. It makes us reflect that Connor has never lived without family either -- the anonymity of his alienated life in this world he is not comfortable in must be overwhelming. As Holtz, who knew him best, told us, Connor's desire to seek Angel was a strong one, one that compelled him to cross worlds through a tear in the nature of reality -- a tear that should not have been possible.

This brings up what Connor's desire to seek out Angel is all about. The last time we saw Connor and Angel face off, the symbol used to depict the way that Connor viewed Angel was a dart-board -- a target to be shot at. And this second impression of his reason for returning to the Hyperion is strengthened by the fact that once he is there, he creeps around everywhere -- he does not announce himself. He is a hunter tracking prey, moving soundlessly through the hotel, dressed more or less in camouflage colors, tan shirt and grey green pants, to blend in. The only one who spots him, that he gives himself away to, is Cordelia.

Next the focus changes down to the scene below stairs. Once Angel figures out that Cordy has amnesia, he decides the way to deal with it is to lie -- we see Lorne outside the window doors, and Angel pushes Gunn to keep Lorne outside the family unit that Angel is going to present to Cordelia. Angel and Fred go into his office to discuss the matter, and Fred points out to Angel that his plan to lie so that Cordy does not reject him might not be the way to go. Like usual lately, Fred is not confident enough in herself to uphold her decision against a strong male figure in her life. Angel's plan is the one that goes into effect.

We are given two perspectives to view this scene. OTOH, we are in the room with Angel and Fred and look at Cordy, now framed off by herself and completely alone wandering in little circles around the room. Fred and Angel are the functioning family here. Cordy is alone.

Then we switch to Cordy's perspective. We see that she has grasped this essential fact -- she is alone and she sees Angel and Fred paired off together -- for her well being, against her well being, she does not know. But she sees them as the essential group and herself as the outsider. She is all prepared for the situation to turn creepy and when Angel and Fred emerge from the room, Fred obviously uncomfortable about lying, does seem creepy.

Next we cut to Cordy looking at her displaced possessions in a room at Angel's hotel. Everything is packed away -- a symbol for Cordy's amnesia. And when we cut to her alone, the first thing she is doing is relating to herself in a looking glass -- there is a certain amount of humor in this -- Cordy has always been vain, it used to be her most salient feature. Plus, the last time she used a looking glass to help resolve a problem, she completely misinterpreted the message she was getting from it, as Masq pointed last year and further down the web page. Here, alone, Cordy speaks to her self image in an overly bright voice. Yet this time the mirror proves completely unrevealing and unreassuring, so she moves to other reflections of herself in photos -- in highschool, her photo as a cheerleader features only her, by herself, and she realizes she was popular. That feels correct, so she accepts it. Then Cordelia picks up a group of photos from her past -- and chillingly, every single picture features Cordelia alone by herself -- and her comment on each photo remarks only on the looks of the girl it portrays. Cordy still has her deeply superficial side.

Angel's photos or frozen moments feature "family Members" or empty landscapes devoid of family. Cordelia's photos or frozen moments feature only herself. It reminded me pretty chillingly of that scene in The Wishverse, where Cordy cuts the cute reflection of herself out of the photo that inclues Xander, Cordelia, and other members of the SG and then proceeds to burn Xander's head (as per Spike's insistence in Lover's Walk of the way you treat someone you really cared about).

Finally, Cordy reaches one photo which shows her the family she was reaching for at the end of last season -- herself and Angel staring at baby Connor, but it doesn't quite resonate internally the way the fact that she was popular in high school did. She has no incisive comment to make about it.

Instead, the picture of herself in this nuclear family disturbs her enough to send her outside of her internal space looking for an answer. But what she learns in the short term only creep her out -- everyone at AI is harboring nasty secrets from her.

Angel and Cordelia do share a moment of near intimacy over a photo of Connor, but the moment is destroyed when Angel's secret "identity" pops out unexpectedly to bite him in the ass, alienating Cordelia.

And then on to the song fest, where Cordelia sings for Lorne. Others have pointed out already the ties between this episode and the Oedipus show that Buffy, Xander and Willow put on. This seems to hint at the near Oedipal theme that will develop later on. However, also important for the fact that Cordelia likes to consult herself in the mirror is the fact that the quoted bit of the song is about self-love -- something that still resonates strongly even with the amnesiac Cordelia.

In any case, Cordy's choice of song turns Lorne's stomach. He's sees evil coming -- slouching towards Bethlehem. If the choice of song is a kind of clue, we are left wondering whether it will be released as an aftermath of the Cordy/Connor pairing or of someone's overwheening self love?

[> Part II: Slouching towards a family framework in ATS/Cordy and Connor -- alcibiades, 20:05:20 11/02/02 Sat

And now Connor comes back into the picture. He helps rescue Cordy from the mouth demon and the two of them take off for his home beyond the world of the hotel.

(Weird scene: it is made very clear that Angel hears the mouth demon, but he does nothing about it -- why not? -- that is not his normal behavior -- is he so off his mission? -- or has Cordelia's appearance w/out memory and Lorne's revelation rocked him too much to be functional?)

The next scene shows us Connor's world. Cordy and he stand before a giant polar bear: Cordy says how cool is that, Connor replies, I love that one, I wish I killed it.

Okay -- as Cordy points out this is strange -- but it also well reflects some of the ambiguity of Connor's feelings for Angel -- there is some pull there he has not escaped, a need that drove him across worlds, but he also wants to kill Angel.

We also learn that Connor has made his den among animals -- it is animals that he relates to best on our world, not people, not the emptiness of the ocean, but dead animals. We remember when we first saw him he was wearing trophies taken from dead animals -- and here he has surrounded himself with animals. He makes his home among the animals because he
understands their ways. He has no other model.

In his room, as Cordelia rests, Connor is framed against his filthy window, emphasizing his aloneness -- he has no family either. He tells Cordelia he has nothing to lose and then sits down framing himself again in front of the window. His foray through the window into the realm of family at the Hyperion has rewarded him with Cordelia, but just as she is still alone, so is he.

Just after this, we are treated to Connor copping a feel while Cordy sleeps and waking her up. Connor seems to be moving in on his father's territory as a way to please himself -- Cordelia is the one person he has had a clean emotional connection with in this world -- and to hurt his father. After all, he was at the Hyperion in hunting mode (although apparently he changed his shirt there as
well from tan to tan/grey with a blue tinge).

The interesting thing is, though, after his father tells him to take care of Cordy, Connor sits and watches through the night -- he doesn't sleep with her on the bed again.

However given next week's preview, this could have more to do with Connor's sense of imminent danger and less to do with his promise to his father.

One last point about Angel, it is interesting to see how smoothly Angel lies to Wesley about not being worried about the fact that Cordy is with Connor. Good thing that Wesley sees through Angel's bullshit with ease.

A final point about Connor -- last week we were reminded that Connor is trying to determine what he is --"don't know yet."

What he seems most like is the product of a demonic inversion of the holy family -- a miracle implantation of living seed into dead flesh, creation out of the nothingness that is death. A miraculous birth in an alley since his mother cannot stay in a hotel. Son of an angel and a whore.

[> [> Re: Part II: Slouching towards a family framework in ATS/Cordy and Connor -- Masq, 20:40:40 11/02/02 Sat

"Weird scene: it is made very clear that Angel hears the mouth demon, but he does nothing about it -- why not? -- that is not his normal behavior -- is he so off his mission? -- or has Cordelia's appearance w/out memory and Lorne's revelation rocked him too much to be functional?"

Angel only appears to be disfunctional in this scene. It's the bait-and-switch with Connor that does it. Angel hears the mouth-guy. We don't know what part of the hotel he's in, so it's not clear how long it will take him to reach Cordy down in the lobby.

We see someone come to the rescue, but it's Connor. Obviously, Connor was a lot closer. He and Cordelia have a very short exchange and then leave. So by the time Angel shows up, they are gone.

[> [> [> The Conner/Angel Dynamic in 4.04 -- tricky, 02:23:47 11/03/02 Sun

I think Angel, with only his bady-language and intonation (great acting by DB), makes it very clear that Connor's charge is to "protect Cordy as though his life depended on it" because it does.

It is interesting to me that before this scene, the last face-to- face interaction the between the two was when Angel made it clear that the deciding criterion in how he would proceed with relation to Conner was Conner's behavior toward Cordy. Good behavior toward Cordy and you get to live, hurt Cordy and you get a one way stamped ticket to the nearest hell dimension. So in Connor's grovel, not much is needed for Connor to pick up on that vibe. If anything happens to Cordy, Angel will hunt him down and kill him, and Connor clearly accepts this.

So the question that we as viewers are left with is: what is Connor's motivation with Cordy? Does he really care? In this episode, he seemed to have come a long way from the patricidal Fred-taunting brat he was in Deep Down. Has he really? Or is it a show, to win Cordy's confidence? Or is it a head-game with the old man. I suspect the writers will have some fun exploring all the possibilities before exposing the truth.

And lastly, I am not going to be quick (as some have been) to say that Conner was intentionally copping a feel. It is possible when two people are laying in the same bed, and one is male and the other female, for breasts to touched in an unsexual way.

[> [> [> [> Pain and the Conner/Angel Dynamic -- alcibiades, 10:57:57 11/03/02 Sun

In this episode, he seemed to have come a long way from the patricidal Fred-taunting brat he was in Deep Down. Has he really? Or is it a show, to win Cordy's confidence?
Or is it a head-game with the old man. I suspect the writers will have some fun exploring all the possibilities before exposing the truth.

For one thing, Connor has learned that even Holtz, his father figure, used him solely as a pawn. He's had time to assimilate that knowledge now. So being immediately patricidal seems a whole lot less important than it once was.

When Connor taunted Fred, it seemed clear to me that the one thing that went into his conditioning was lots and lots of pain. Rather than thinking of him as a brat, I felt sorry for him. He may be starting to learn that this world is a lot grayer than the one he came from.

I think he is playing a head game with his dad, but also that he genuinely likes Cordy, so his actions with her are not solely to get to his dad. I don't think he would harm her in any case.

The Spirit guide's words to Buffy in Intervention comes back to me as also relevant to Connor:

I am destruction, absolute, alone.

Connor is known as the destroyer. He is also absolute, alone.

[> [> [> Re: Part II: Slouching towards a family framework in ATS/Cordy and Connor -- azazel, 10:11:59 11/03/02 Sun

Don't know about the bait and switch.

Shouldn't Angel be able to track the guy by his slurping noises?

[> ^^ Spoilers for Angel 4.4 above^^ -- alcibiades, 20:07:02 11/02/02 Sat

[> Re: Slouching towards a family framework in ATS/Cordy and Connor -- Masq, 20:35:38 11/02/02 Sat

I just love all the window/frame as family metaphors you've presented in this post and others! Especially this one "So, Connor sneaking back in the window OTOneH, represents Connor's desire to sneak back into his family." Very poignant.

[> [> The framing device on ATS -- alcibiades, 09:05:27 11/03/02 Sun

"I just love all the window/frame as family metaphors you've presented in this post and others! Especially this one "So, Connor sneaking back in the window OTOneH, represents Connor's desire to sneak back into his family." Very poignant.

Thanks Masq.

Ever since I noticed this technique at the end of last season, I've been absolutely amazed at how consistently the directors of ATS use it as a symbolic motif to explore the family situation on Angel.

I should probably check at some point who directed the shows where I have noticed it, to see if it is used primarily by only a few directors or whether its use is pretty standard throughout the staff.

Anyone know, by the way, where a list of writers/directors of Angel episodes can be found?

This device is not used nearly as much or at all on Buffy as far as I have noticed.

The characters on ATS are all deracinated and removed from their families, with the exception of Connor, and his situation is unique.

On BTVS, in comparison, the characters may be alienated from their families (with the exception of Buffy/Dawn), but they are still around, at least for the core 3.

It is kind of funny, isn't it, how almost everyone on both shows appears to be an only child -- Gunn wasn't originally, but his sister is now dead. Justine was a twin, but her sister's death also confirmed her in her ways. And Buffy/Dawn is mystical. Lorne had relatives, but they are in another dimension and they also wanted to kill him. Tara had siblings, but like with Lorne, they wanted to subjugate her.

It makes me wonder was Joss an only child? Did he get an annoying, late step-addition to his family, kind of like a Dawn? How much of the shows plots are his personal therapy? (g).

[> [> [> Joss's therapy -- Juliet, 16:58:12 11/03/02 Sun

I always thought the whole Xander/Cordelia thing was his high school therapy.

[> Interesting point about Cordy -- azazel, 10:19:55 11/03/02 Sun

CC's high school personality is coming through loud and clear. That song she sings, for one. And she seems to remember enough magic from Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered to remember there was a spell about turning annoying people into rats.

I wonder. If Cordy only remembers herself from H.S., have any of her recent changes stuck? It's true she still fights a lot better than she used to. But all she remembers of her core personality is of the days she was 16.

That reminds me of Giles to Willow. "We all are what we are."

Has Cordy really changed if nothing else has stuck?

Soul as a mirror -- Sang, 22:36:40 11/02/02 Sat

Many speculated about what soul does in Buffyverse. This morning, I just thought about two things that vampires don't have. Reflection and conscience.

What if a soul acts like a mirror in their mind? Vamps don't regret their amoral acts since there is nothing in their mind which reminds them humanity. Spike used to remember his bloody crimes without any remorse. But soul put his (human) image in the crime scene, it makes him watch what he really did (as a human).

Watching the mirror without his own reflection, makes him feel that nothing in the room matters with you, since he is not there. If he can see himself in the mirror, than all the world around will change, since he is there. Things around him does matter to him.

Then, why did he felt remorse and regret about Buffy without soul? I think Buffy was a mirror to Spike, he could see him through her. The last few scenes of Spike at SR showed that for the first time, Spike did see his reflection in his act to Buffy. And he couldn't stand what he saw in him.

[> Very interesting point (and one for which, I think, you might find textual support)! -- d'Herblay, 15:29:02 11/03/02 Sun

[> A mirror is a symbol of the soul Spoiler 7 -- Deb, 15:42:01 11/03/02 Sun

Which means Spike and Angel should reflect an image, but in Buffyverse this only happens when they don't catch a reflection off of shiny wood or whateve, and edit it out.

You're right on regarding Buffy reflecting Spike too. It's the Gothic, psycoanalytical argument of Kenneth Burke's (applying Jung) as applied to the Disney version of "Beauty and the Beast." It is amazing how much the two storylines have in common. There is a requirement of two romantic interests for Belle (Buffy) one sincere and one evil. In B&B we have Beast and
Gaston. In Buffy we have William/Spike. The true "love" sets Belle free (lets go of love for love's sake and frees the beloved.) Beast allowed Belle to return to her father's home when she saw in the mirror that he was in trouble. I'm taking it for granted (not always a good thing) that it was William that released Buffy symbolically when he handed Buffy the fire thingy to fight the demon while "he cut the ropes that bound love" when he set the pre-cog girl free. She then tells William/Spike (once the duck tape was removed from her mouth) that "she will tell someday," or whatever she did say that we have not agreed upon.

According to Burke, there are three steps to overcoming the Animal-Human Paradox of the Beast. The first step is Victimage (scapegoating and treating of humans as 'its') In season 6 the, everything Buffy calls Spike she is really feeling about herself, and vice versa. The Beast feels his condition is based upon a "cruel trick of fate" based upon one careless decision.

Move from Vistimage to Mortification: Basically the Beast realizes his truly bad behavior and gives in to hopelessness of ever really loving and being loved. He releases of object of love completely and believes he will be a Beast forever.

Mortification to Transcendence: Once Belle realizes that Beast is demanding nothing of her - - realizes that she is free -- she can approach Beast on her own without fear and they both can be transformed into two individual wholes.

The only problem: Once the Beast is transformed to Human, everything changes around him. In B&B all the humans are human again, and the castle in bathed in sunshine, etc. etc. So what is the gloom and doom reality of Buffyverse that could disappear?

[> [> Re: Very interesting and insightful, Thanks! -- Sang, 16:42:12 11/03/02 Sun

You are right, Buffy and Spike reflected each other in S6. B&B.. very interesting. How about Jean Cocteau's b/w version? I couldn't remember its details, but it was one of the darkest version of B&B I ever saw.

[> [> [> I have a copy! -- Deb, 19:58:01 11/03/02 Sun

It does not translate as well. I also have a film about Vampires in Hong Kong. There they hop to get around and are blind. The only way they can find you is if you breath then they suck the breath out of you.

Mistakes in Buffy's scripting -- Charlemagne20, 23:14:12 11/02/02 Sat

Basically where you think Buffy went wrong in terms of storytelling and what should have perhaps been done instead of them.

List all your problems and why you think Joss did such and whether you think it came off proper/was worth it

[> Re: Mistakes in Buffy's scripting -- Quentin Collins, 00:36:34 11/03/02 Sun

While I have no problem with critiquing the work of ME (or any other artist for that matter), there are nonetheless plot points on BtVS that I was less than satisfied with. Usually these situations on the show are consistent with the characters on the show, so it is hard for me to gripe too much about them. But some things do stick out a bit for me.

1. Spike seeking to have his soul restored. After having the villains of season six all be humans with souls (the Trio and Dark Willow), I thought that exploring whether a vampire without a soul like Spike could ever develop a moral sense would be much more interesting. The fact that Spike had the chip for so long and was experiencing socialization by interacting with the Scoobies made it a unique enough situation IMHO that it would not destroy the "canon" of the show. I imagine that there are reasons why ME went this route but they are not clear enough to me at present.

2. The plot arc of season four. I liked the Initiative and Adam had promise, but it was almost like there was an episode missing in that season. Adam's plan seemed a little bit half baked and it was over almost as soon as we were told what it was. I recently read in the Noxon interview that ME regretted some of this and admits that they screwed up. Perhaps the premature departure of the actress who played Prof. Walsh had something to do with this or maybe they had to scrap some other plot idea. All that I can say is that if not for "Restless" at the end, season four would have left a bad taste in my mouth.

3. Spuffy. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy it and found much of it fascinating. The problem for me was that it seemed so inconsistent at times. The Wesley/Lilah arc on Ats seems like it would have been a better model for Spuffy. Again, I think that the payoff for the whole Spuffy thing may lay ahead, so it is too soon to tell on that.

4. No "little bad" in season five. I think if they would have had a little bad and allowed Glory to be introduced a bit later, it may have made a remarkable season even better. Perhaps the Knights of Byzantium could have come before Glory that season. I guess ME wanted to avoid having the little bad that season because they already had to deal with Joyce's cancer and the introduction of Dawn. It still worked, but Glory's introduction could have had even more impact if pushed back a bit.

[> [> Re: Mistakes in Buffy's scripting -- Alvin, 07:28:54 11/03/02 Sun

I always thought of Ben as the "little" bad of s5 as well as being the "surprise" bad. Remember, he was the one to summon the queller (sp?) demon that killed all the crazy people and that threatened Joyce. Not to mention the way he turned on Dawn at the end.

[> [> [> Re: Mistakes in Buffy's scripting - - vh, 06:38:18 11/04/02 Mon

Dawn wasn't the "little bad" of s5? After all, Buffy was suspicious of just what she was and why she was there.

[> This may sound like Political Correctness but... -- ZachsMind, 18:48:15 11/03/02 Sun

I find the choice of words here ...disturbing.

M.E. never went wrong in their storytelling. There are no real right or wrong choices in storytelling. Such judgmental statements are far too subjective. You either like the tale that is told or you don't. One could explore alternate possibilities. One could contemplate "what ifs" and see where they might have gone had they chosen to do things differently, but the tale that has been told by Whedon & his gang is THE tale of Buffy. They're his characters. At best, we're wading in his grey matter.

Insulting his choices is like urinating in his pool.

[> [> Re: This may sound like Political Correctness but... -- Rob, 21:28:30 11/03/02 Sun

"Insulting his choices is like urinating in his pool."

LOL! I agree.


[> [> Right there with ya, Zach. -- HonorH, 21:52:47 11/04/02 Mon

The tale of Buffy is something that's ongoing. While we might prefer that she take different roads, we aren't the ones writing her story. Although I feel there are things that might've been better done, I can't say they were "mistakes" in the overall scheme, because the overall story is one I'm greatly enjoying.

[> Confusing dialogue at least (Buffy S.6 spoilers) -- Silky, 07:21:12 11/04/02 Mon

I have noticed certain inconsistencies over the years (vampires and the breath thing, for example) but I really felt the following dialouge was inconsistent.

From: As You Were, quotes from Psyche's transcript's

RILEY: Suvolte demon. Rare, lethal ... nearly extinct, but not nearly enough. .....
We've been tear-assing through every jungle from Paraguay up, taking out nests. As soon as we put one Suvolte down, a dozen take its place. They're breeders, Buffy. One turns into ten, ten becomes a hundred. This gets out of hand and there's a war with humans? Humans are gonna lose.
BUFFY: So they're like really mean tribbles.

My question: So which is it? Are they rare or not? If they are breeders how can they be rare?

RILEY: Sam and I have been tracking a Suvolte demon through Central America. Killing machine. Nearly mature.
SAM: Yeah, three months old and growing fast.
RILEY: These things start to kill the minute they're hatched. And leave a real clear trail.
SAM: (shakes head) No. It came here to the Hellmouth to, to spawn. (sighs) But we think it already hatched its eggs somewhere.
BUFFY: So, demon eggs. Any timetable on when they're gonna hatch?
RILEY: Hatching's not the problem.
SAM: We think they're gonna be sold on the black market. There are some foreign military powers that would love to have their own Suvolte. You could never train it, but drop it on an urban population...
RILEY: And it cleanses the area.
SAM: .... Money's been exchanged. There's a dealer in town, calls himself the, The Doctor.

......Buffy to Spike at the end of the ep
BUFFY: And I'm not here to bust your chops about your stupid scheme, either.

My comment: So Buffy believes Spike's scheme was stupid - not the big deal that Riley and Sam said? Because of this line and what Buffy said to Riley when Riley offered to kill 'the Doctor' I believed that Buffy did not believe that Spike was the Doctor. In fact, I still think it wasn't made clear what the viewer was supposed to believe, or what Buffy believed. But maybe that's just me.

Plus, except for the Buffy/Spike scenes, I really did not like this ep. The Sam character was so obnoxious, I was sure they were going to bring her back as someone evil! Or that she was the Doctor.

What is wildfeed? -- Pegleg Pete, 10:05:33 11/03/02 Sun

Is it visual or written? How do I get there? With Tuesday being election day, the local station that carries Buffy will be interrupting the show every 5 minutes with an election update. Most annoying.

[> Election day. Ooh. Didn't think about that... - - ZachsMind, 10:15:35 11/03/02 Sun

Well the UPN station we have here in Texas often acts like it's mostly automated. I don't even think they have a news department, but it would tick me off if this Tuesday was the day they decided to start.

Why couldn't ME make THIS week the rerun week? Ack!

[> [> Re: Election day. Ooh. Didn't think about that... -- JBone, 16:18:07 11/03/02 Sun

I think we're in the same media market, and the upn station airs updates from the cbs affiliate. More than likely, it will be a shrunken screen with results filling the bottom and side. With any luck, they won't have many results worth reporting until Buffy is done. But they just love to jump in with 1% of the precincts reporting.

[> Re: What is wildfeed? -- PurpleMarrow, 14:03:56 11/03/02 Sun

Wildfeeds are early transmissions that are sent out by the networks to their affiliate stations. The affiliates then broadcast to the public at the regularly scheduled time. They can also be seen by anyone who has an analogue dish system (the big, 8 to 10 foot dishes that can be moved to pick up signals from different satellites). They are different from the digital satellite systems that have become available over the last several years.

The big dishes are nice. You get to see early feeds of shows. You can also watch reporters fixing their hair and making faces before they broadcast a remote feed. On the negative sides, you have to brush them off after a snowfall, and you can only point them at one satellite at a time. I miss having the analogue system, but the digital systems are usually more practical.

[> The Wildfeed will be on the Trollop Boards Monday morning....very early. -- Rufus, 14:36:06 11/03/02 Sun

I compile the links or full Wildfeeds for Angel Sunday morning, and for Buffy, Monday morning. These are complete summaries of the episodes and you will be fully spoiled.

con versebuffyverse or Trollop Yahoo Group

Conversebuffyverse Voy backup board

Also on the Conversebuffyverse Yahoo Group there are articles, spoiler speculation, reviews. If I put all the stuff I find for there here there people would really have something to complain about in regards to how fast posts are archived here. One thing to remember...don't spoil people on this board, that is why I started the other maintain the purity of this board.....and that's hard work..;)

[> [> Thank you for preserving our purity, that's why we call you the First Virtue -- Masq, 16:03:09 11/03/02 Sun

How's this for irony? -- Rob, 12:43:25 11/03/02 Sun

In order to escape the difficulty of the philosophy paper I'm writing for class...I go to the Buffy Philosophy board!!!


[> We're a lot more fun : ) -- Masq, 12:58:13 11/03/02 Sun

Philosophy with a spoonful of sugar

or is that a spoonful of the Buffyverse

What's your paper on?

[> [> Re: We're a lot more fun : ) -- Rob, 14:20:40 11/03/02 Sun

Plato's "Gorgias"...the section where Socrates argues that it's better to have a wrong done to you than to commit a wrong onto someone else. I have to summarize all of the arguments, and then give my opinion about the validity of the claims of Socrates and the guy he's arguing against.


[> [> [> Sounds like classical Greek Karma to me.;) -- Deb, 14:33:44 11/03/02 Sun

[> [> [> The mental health theory of morality -- tricky, 15:12:41 11/03/02 Sun

my philo profs characterized Plato's arguments in Gorgias, Republic, Apology and elsewhere as the mental health theory of morality. This theory occurs throughout the early dialogues, and is therefore thought to have come from Socrates himself, unlike the Platonic epistemology wherein Socrates is simply Plato's mouthpiece. This gist of Socrates position is simply: when a person does actions they think is immoral, it produces in them a kind of disharmony and sickness that is unbearable. But when they do what they think is right--what seems by their reason--they are entirely harmonious and healthy, even while suffering the injustices of others. They are peace with themselves and they are mentally healthy. This mental health, this inward harmony, is greatly to be desired, and is our best reason for choosing to live a moral life.

Just FYI

[> [> [> [> The mental health theory of morality -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 17:26:22 11/03/02 Sun

So right thought and action are good for the blood pressure?

And I thought that virtue was only its own reward.

An Evil Request for d'Horrible, the tentacled one (O/T) -- Sophomorica, picking cat gut out of her teeth, 13:00:50 11/03/02 Sun

I implore you to provide us demons with your rapier wit and analytic skills by writing the review this week.

[> Hey! Evil here, remember? -- d'Horrible, 15:39:01 11/03/02 Sun

Not just evil, but well-versed in the fine arts of torture. And I can think of no more exquisite torture than to leave you with naught but the caterwauling chicken-scratch of Honorificus (She-Who-Makes-The-Earth-Tremble-But-In-A-She-Should-Cut-Out- The-Little-Debbies-And-In-Fact-The-Average-And-The-Plus-Size- Debbies-Way).

[> [> Caterwauling? I thought it to be more like the mating calls of Bonobo monkeys. -- Devilish, languishing over a selection of virgins, 15:56:47 11/03/02 Sun

[> [> Oh, stuff it in your secondary orifice! - - Honorificus (She Who Blinds With Her Beauty), 17:12:40 11/03/02 Sun

And while you're at it, you might think twice about that second helping of pig entrails. Even your *tail* is getting chubby.

[> [> [> If by beauty you mean sharp pointy thumb talons, then yeah I'm blind -- ponygoyle bumping around in the night, 06:54:59 11/04/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> That was purely your own fault. -- Honorificus (The Tastefully-Manicured One), 15:08:45 11/04/02 Mon

Don't get between me and the TV when Giles is on it, and you'll keep your eyes. What are you complaining about, anyway? Any good demon always keeps a couple of spares around, and even if you don't have any on hand, you can always steal a pair. Do I really need to tell you this?

[> [> Evil and MIA as well -- Whipwoman, 17:49:39 11/03/02 Sun

Where the hellmouth have you been, boy? You think we don't notice when you disappear on these little mystery jaunts? C'mon, admit it--you're not just evil, you're not just MIA, you're... [insert suspenseful musical spike (no, not that Spike)]...CIA!!!!!

Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! ;op

[> [> [> LOL -- Rahael, 11:34:08 11/04/02 Mon

[> [> Little Debbies are the true evil of the universe -- Deb, 19:35:57 11/03/02 Sun

With a first name of Deborah and being called Debbie as a child, it is torture to look at all my childhood pictures where my mother taught it was cute to dress me up to look just like Little Debbie. I don't wear hats anymore, and the sight of black patent leather shoes gives me panic attacks.

I would tell you my last name, but then I'd really be the joke of the board.

[> [> [> Hey, don't forget that Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee! -- Sara who won't smile even if Hall and Oates demand it!, 18:25:43 11/04/02 Mon

Sanity has only been saved by really being Sara Jill.

[> [> [> [> My daughter's name is Sara Eileen! -- Deb, 01:21:03 11/05/02 Tue

[> WHAT?!?!? -- Honorificus (The Svelte and Sexy One), 17:08:59 11/03/02 Sun

You would have d'Horrible, Scourge of the Zip Code Where He Lives, Suggester of Naughty Things to Virgins, and Sometime Advisor to the Geek Trio, write the review rather than myself? D'Horrible, who doesn't even give a Fashion Review (and what's important, after all?)?

Fine! Be that way! But next time you need someone to find your beloved halberd, don't come whining to me, sister!

[> [> Re: WHAT?!?!? -- Saguaro Stalker, demon counselor to the stars, 17:28:22 11/03/02 Sun

All right, no bickering with claws sheathed around here! Now, Honorificus share your Little Debbies and Little Beulahs with d'Horrible! D'Horrible, you stop stealing Honorificus' nail polish to smear on your peanut butter and cherub sandwiches!

[> [> [> Board fight! -- Sophomorica, positively giddy with glee!!!, 17:45:29 11/03/02 Sun

Tell her to give me back my halberd, too!

[> [> [> [> For the last time, I *don't* have your halberd! -- Honorificus (Who Needs No Pointy Weapons), 18:00:00 11/03/02 Sun

I do, however, have a few suggestions as to where you can stick it when you find it. Just ask, and I'll be only too happy to tell you.

[> [> [> [> [> This is so sweet! (spoiler of Supersymmetry) -- Saguaro Stalker, 21:01:10 11/03/02 Sun

I almost forgot 'halberd' is Sophomorica's cutesy nickname for her sixth husband. You know the one right before 'mace,' the dull one? And now you two are squabbling like Fred and Gunn over who get's to send him to a hell dimension. It just brings tears to my eyes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: This is so sweet! (spoiler of Supersymmetry) -- Sophomorica, 05:50:09 11/04/02 Mon

Cute like teddy-bear choya...until you get too close. Now that will really bring tears to your eyes!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- CW (Saguaro Stalker just fell over holding his sides), 06:03:53 11/04/02 Mon

[> [> ummmm...if you're so insulted... -- demanom, 20:49:47 11/03/02 Sun

"...d'Horrible, Scourge of the Zip Code Where He Lives, Suggester of Naughty Things to Virgins, and Sometime Advisor to the Geek Trio...."

...what's with all the compliments??

[> [> [> You consider those compliments? -- Honorificus (The Mighty, the Magnificent), 21:15:07 11/03/02 Sun

Darling, what dimension are *you* from? Now, if I'd called him, "Scourge of Azteca, Defiler of Virgins, and Advisor to Lucifer," that would have been complimenting him--as well as a hell-and-a-half of an exaggeration. As it was, I told the truth, which, in his case, is far less impressive. Like my good friend Screwtape is fond of saying, "If a lie won't do the trick, try the truth. Occasionally, it even works."

[> [> [> [> ah...damning with faint praise! then i admire your use of this time-honored[ificus] technique! -- demanom, 23:02:51 11/03/02 Sun

Sorry, sometimes those subtleties are beyond me. Yeah, I guess "scourge of his zip code" ain't really saying much!

[> Sophie, do you think you could restrain your alter- ego? -- HonorH (with one severe headache), 10:38:59 11/04/02 Mon

Heaven help us all if we get into the Duelling Super-Evil Reviews! Honorificus is perfectly unbearable to live with now; if d'Horrible's reviews get more accolades than her own, I cannot predict the consequences save to say that they will not be pretty. Give Sophomorica another lollipop and tell her to quit coming up with bright ideas, willya? I'm not anxious for another Super-Evil Blood Feud in my parlor.

[> [> Re: Sophie, do you think you could restrain your alter-ego? -- Sophie, 11:00:46 11/04/02 Mon

My apologies about Sophomorica's latest trouble-making, and I certainly share your concerns. I have a terrible cold and you know how hard it is to find a good demon- sitter.


[> [> [> Do I ever! -- HonorH, 14:09:49 11/04/02 Mon

I've been sick lately myself, and H isn't making it any easier. Finally managed to get her to be quiet for a while by sitting her down with a "Sandman" comic book, a Tim Burton movie, and one very large cup of hot chocolate (and some new satiny pink bedroom slippers). I've also got an old Methos muse left over from my Highlander fangirl days, and he helps out when it suits him. H loves his stories of his Horseman days. I bribe him with beer occasionally, which keeps him happy. Best of luck, dear, and I hope you get better soon.

[> [> [> [> Thank you! -- Sophie, 15:57:06 11/04/02 Mon

I think I'll try your idea of hot-chocolate - for both of us! I hope you get well soon, too.


Monsters (marginally OT) -- Humanitas, 15:04:26 11/03/02 Sun

I don't know if anyone else heard this, but ther was a story on NPR about monsters and their cultural place last week, and it's finally up on their website.

I think the connection to BtVS is kind of obvious, but I'd love to hear what folks have to say on the topic, since ya'll routinely think of stuff that had never occurred to me. ;- )

[> Haven't seen it yet, but... -- VampRiley, 19:32:28 11/03/02 Sun

I head this report a few weeks ago of this guy seeing this large creature as he was flying in alaska (in one of those small planes) and it's wingspan was as big as the plane itself. Another guy also say it on another day. It was flying right at him, I think, and when it turned away, it was really big. So, I just have one word running through my's a demon.


[> [> Re: Monspiracy theory [cue Firefly dialect] -- pr10n, 19:41:50 11/03/02 Sun

Any chance it was one of them fancy-pants nanotechnological morphin' aeroplanes I heard tell about?

They can change wingspan and surface-to-air ratio and the like, and swap colors like a big flying chameleon. Pert near like a demon, 'cept less fangy.

[Sorry no Chinese slang.]

[> [> [> Fancy-pants nanotechnological morphin' aeroplanes? -- VR, 19:00:10 11/04/02 Mon

As far as I know, it was organic in origin, not mechanical.

[> [> [> [> Re: Fancy-pants nanotechnological morphin' aeroplanes? -- pr10n, 21:04:14 11/04/02 Mon

I was just spoutin' er, joking really, but check this out:

Scroll until you find the GIF of the flapping spacecraft. Ain't technology grand!

[> I've heard it and one word comes to mind. -- VampRiley, 19:52:05 11/03/02 Sun


A lot of what he said could be applied. Damn you threads that lead back to the "S" word.

[shakes fist at it]

[giggles in a very manly manner]

There's also a lot, especially a lot of the same things that can be applied to the "S" word, can be applied to a lot of the rest of Buffy and Angel, especially last season of both shows.

VR, who must go to bed now and slay the evil teacher tomorrow for giving lectures on monday mornings.

"He's the devil, I say!! The devil!!"

OT completely. -- Deb, 15:55:07 11/03/02 Sun

Does anyone see the sun? We haven't had sunlight for three weeks now, and I'm moving into hibernation and am irritable. It feels like a Van Gogh painting that was painted after they medicated him. Some days you walk outside, stretch your arm out in front of you and you can't see your hand. I know there has to be some people here who do not live in mostly sunny climes. How do you deal with this without sleeping 20 hours a day? How do you overcome the dumps? I hate drizzle. Everything is a special shade of grey. I love snowstorms and thunderstorms, but this IS hell.

[> Here comes the sun -- for a price -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 17:23:49 11/03/02 Sun

Some members of my family have benefited from those light-boxes that are supposed to address Seasonal Adjustment Deficit Disorder (?) (SADD). They apparently send out the same wavelengths of light that the sun does and that are needed for producing various bits of chemical the human organism needs to be non-depressed.

Of course, they need a prescription and some years ago sold for about $400 -- a LOT of money for what is basically a fluorescent light with a special bulb.

Dunno if this helps. You have my sympathy, but I dunno if that helps either.

[> [> requested correct name of disorder -- anom, 20:35:24 11/03/02 Sun

Seasonal affective disorder (SAD).

[> We have your sun and we are not going to return him without a ransom -- Wise...uh...Whipwoman, 17:42:44 11/03/02 Sun

Your sun has been spending that last three months in the Pacific Northwest, specifically hovering above Vancouver, BC. No one in this area recognizes him, so don't expect any help there.

We will return your sun on the understanding that you will provide us with several million gallons of drinkable water that we have lost as a result of caring for your sun.

Oh, just out of interest, where the heck is your sun from, anyway?


[> [> Well, if you'll accept water from the Missouri River -- Deb, 19:20:06 11/03/02 Sun

then we have a deal. Somehow I had a feeling it was taken to the Northwest. Return the sun by Wednesday or we'll take your shoreline and replace your ocean with prairies. Oh, we are in Kansas City, which is in Missouri.

[> [> [> Or, we'll send the entire state of Kansas and make you drive across it over & over & over & over... -- Deb, 19:24:41 11/03/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> Kansas -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 19:34:34 11/03/02 Sun

I heard that when they filmed the Wizard of Oz back in 1937-38 they did the whole thing with color film.

Just the Kansas parts came out black & white.

Just kidding. Baum actually wrote the "real world" parts about North Dakota, only since he had family there, he "laundered" the information and made Dorothy's home Kansas.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Kansas -- Deb, 19:44:25 11/03/02 Sun

Driving across Kansas has turned many a good person into a zombie. It's flat,I-70 is so straight and there is nothing but tall grass all around you. Each little town looks the same, and the only thing to disrupt this hypnotic state is the occassional tornado.

[> [> [> Re: talking about weather and doing nothing about it -- pr10n, 19:36:40 11/03/02 Sun

Um, here in the Wasatch Range of the Rockies we have a sun. It's ineffectual from a warmth standpoint but very bright. Any relation to this alleged B.C. sun?

Also we have crispy leaves that we force our children to rake. And we had snow flurries just two days ago.

Do we have all the weather? If so, what's it worth?

[> [> [> [> I'll exchange the drizzle for the leaves to rake. -- Deb, 19:49:20 11/03/02 Sun

Can you also spare one canyon?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'll exchange the canyon for... um , the Royals? -- pr10n, 19:54:18 11/03/02 Sun

I live at the the mouth of a canyon that causes occasional howling winds. All the neighbors have arranged that their leaves pile at my house -- perhaps you have bargained unwisely?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah the Royals. I miss the glory days. -- Deb, 20:04:45 11/03/02 Sun

I'll still take the leaves. I'll just find some zombies who just drove across Kansas and have them rake, or I'll just wait for a thunderstorm to come and blow them to Illinois.

[> [> [> [> Ah, a fellow Utahn; I thought I was the only one here! -- vh, 07:19:30 11/04/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> Re: [offers handshake] probably just us two, right? -- pr10n, 07:43:32 11/04/02 Mon

[> Severe clear: please have some, dear! -- vh, 06:33:13 11/04/02 Mon

You can have a few days of ours ... more than a few days, as far as I'm concerned! We get so many days of cloud-free sun around here, they have a term for it: "severe clear." It's enhanced by the altitude, and, in the winter, snow reflection. I come from a stormier locale and I really welcome the rare cloudy days.

[> [> I saw the sun this morning. Then it went away. -- Deb, 13:55:04 11/04/02 Mon

Grr! Argh! I frickin' hate surprise spoilers! -- tim, who's stolen ponygirl's crankypants for awhile, 16:11:32 11/03/02 Sun

OKAY, so there I was, minding my own business, reading my Sunday paper. I noticed an article about Angel, and thought I'd look closer, never suspecting what was about to happen. As I started to read it, I found out that the WHOLE DAMN ARTICLE was one long spoiler, starting even with the frickin' HEADLINE. I now know all the major plot developments between now and frickin' February. Frickin' February.

I wanted to look away, but it was like a train wreck. I just couldn't avert my eyes. And I kept thinking it would get better--that they would talk about moral ambiguity or the lack of respect the shows get or DB's frickin' HAIR, anything except piling on spoiler after spoiler. I had no idea ME would be willing to give up that much information publicly.

Someone at the Columbus Dispatch is the deadest man in Deadonia.

There. I feel better now.



[> There, there. -- HonorH (with a cup of hot tea), 17:02:17 11/03/02 Sun

It happens to us all sooner or later. Killing newswriters won't solve anything--well, actually, it might, but that's beside the point. Take a few deep breaths, drink a nice, soothing cup of tea, and forward a few chain letters to the writer of the article. You'll feel worlds better!

[> Okay, this is probably really less than tactful... -- Wisewoman, 17:37:59 11/03/02 Sun

...given your current state of distress, but couldya rush on over to the Yahoo Spoiler Trollop board and kinda type out a list of all them horrible spoilers that attacked ya? Pretty please???

dub ;o)

[> [> Yeah do that or give us the link........please! -- Head Trollop, Rufus, 19:12:48 11/03/02 Sun

[> [> [> offending article inside (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR FUTURE ANGEL EPS) -- tim, 20:33:15 11/03/02 Sun

It's Scripps-Howard wire story, so I couldn't find it anywhere on-line that had general public access. Fortunately, as a student, I can abuse my lexis-nexis priveleges with impunity. It's probably nothing you spoiler-lovers didn't already know, but for those of us who are trying to (ahem) save ourselves to make it more special, it was quite the Sunday-evening trauma.



Ventura County Star
October 27, 2002 Sunday

SECTION: Life; Pg. K05

LENGTH: 791 words

HEADLINE: Ups and downs on 'Angel'
Cordelia returns from heaven; Angel to sink lower

BYLINE: Dave Mason;

"Angel" star David Boreanaz loves being evil.

"David Boreanaz is so great as Angelus. He's wonderful as Angel, but there's a glint in his eye and a spring in his step
when he's Angelus," said Jeffrey Bell, co-executive producer and the new showrunner of "Angel."

Angel, the vampire with a soul, will become the wicked Angelus again this winter when the gang needs the help of a
Hannibal Lecter-like creature to catch the season's Big Bad. But Fred (Amy Acker), Gunn (J. August Richards) and
Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) are prepared when Angel's soul is removed; they put Angelus in a cage. Of course,
Angelus escapes, and it'll be up to the vampire slayer Faith (Eliza Dushku) to capture him during February sweeps. The
saga leading up to the new Angelus storyline will begin during November sweeps, which begins Thursday, Bell said in a
phone interview.

"Episode 7 (airing Nov. 17) will introduce the character who will be the Big Bad for the season," Bell said. "That episode
will be a cliffhanger, and we'll come back with episode 8 (in winter 2003). This guy is so bad and so tough that only one
person can handle him, and that leads us to Angelus during February sweeps.

"He (the villain) is not someone we've met before. He's not human; he's the toughest thing Angel has ever faced. He's
smart, he's strong, he's cruel," Bell said.

And will the much talked-about apocalypse, the one involving Angel, happen this season on the "Buffy the Vampire
Slayer" spinoff? Bell won't say for certain, but something big is going on this year.

"We have an episode called 'Apocalypse Nowish,'" Bell said. (He added it's not connected to the new hellmouth stirrings
on "Buffy.")

Bell declined to say too much about the new villain or how Angel's soul will be removed and later restored.

"We'll have to find out," Bell said about the soul. "We won't take any shortcuts."

Bell explained why now is the time for Angelus. Angel hasn't been the creature since the second season of "Buffy" when
he lost his soul after one moment of true happiness during sex with Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar).

"We've tried to get Angel to the place where he can make peace with what he's done. He's now doing the right thing
because it's the right thing and not to atone for what he's done in the past," Bell said.

As Angel approaches the point of contention, it's important to take some peace away from him. That's the philosophy of
mixing pain and joy in "Angel" and "Buffy."

"Angel" has been moving forward at a quick pace during last season and the new one. Lilah became the new head of
the evil law firm, Wolfram & Hart, when she didn't just go over her boss' head. She cut it off -- at a board meeting.

"On our show, anyone can die at any moment. You never know," Bell said. "It makes it fun."

Meanwhile, in tonight's episode, Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) returns from her boring duties in heaven, but she won't
remember everything she did up there.

Bell explained why Cordelia rose to heaven just as Angel was sent to the bottom of the Pacific. "We knew we had an
urequited love. Cordelia finds out she loves Angel. She rushes to a place to see him, and we knew we had to get them
as far away from each other as possible."

Originally, plans had called for Angel to be buried under a mall, but the ocean was better, Bell said. "Will they (Angel
and Cordelia) get together, or won't they? That will play out for a while in different stories."

The producers hadn't originally planned for Angel to have a son, Connor, but it was a natural outcome of the plot that
brought back the vampire Darla (Julie Benz), Bell said. "It was, 'What if Darla was pregnant and showed up?' It really
grew from Angel, in a moment of weakness after a horrible day, saw his old girlfriend, and they're in bed, and he didn't
care and they have sex."

Sending Connor (Vincent Kartheiser) to a hell dimension allowed the baby to grow into a young man, one who left his
father, Angel, on the bottom of the ocean during the summer when he falsely believes Angel killed his adoptive father,
the vengeful Holtz.

Angel resurfaces and gives his son some tough love. He kicks him out of the Los Angeles hotel that serves as his home.
"He loves his son but can't stand to be around him," Bell said.

"Angel" is continuing its tradition of not presenting a Halloween-theme story this week, Bell said. He explained there's
too much to do in the overall storyline.

Joss Whedon, executive producer and co-creator of "Angel," directed an episode in which all the characters, including
Angel and Cordelia, have amnesia. They revert to their personas at age 17, which means the return of the shallow,
not-so-nice Cordelia from the early "Buffy" seasons.

[> [> [> [> Oh Thank you.....and further evidence I have a dirty mind or need reading glasses -- Rufus, 22:13:15 11/03/02 Sun

I saw the bit about Cordy coming home from her "boring duties in heaven" as "boning duties in heaven" making heaven a whole lot different than we saw....

[> Thanks for the warning [reads only the comics today] -- LittleBit, 17:55:56 11/03/02 Sun

[> [> :-( Wishing we had funnies! -- Sophie, 18:18:24 11/03/02 Sun

The New York Times doesn't have funnies. Have to go buy the Daily News...but

I LOVE NY!!!!!!!!

exscuse me...I just stopped by to pick up my demon.


[> By any chance, is the article in question online? - NT -- ZachsMind, 18:23:47 11/03/02 Sun

[> Yeah I noticed that ME is leaking spoilers for Ats this year -- shadowkat, 20:03:40 11/03/02 Sun

Warning? Avoid all newspaper articles and writer interviews with ME or on ATs right now. They've been spoiling like crazy this year. I accidentally got spoiled reading an interview with JEffrey Bell. And just about every article I've seen on Angel regardless of the interviewee has spoilers. I stopped reading them altogether after the Jeffrey Bell article.

If you want these spoilers? Go to - it collects most of the articles. There's one that's an interview with Jeffrey Bell which pretty much reveals a major big time spoiler for midseason. Don't access it - it's in the first paragraph.

I'm not sure why ME is leaking so much info on Angel this year. Maybe they are trying to get more viewers? (shrug)

[> [> Re: Yeah I noticed that ME is leaking spoilers for Ats this year -- leslie, 15:01:21 11/04/02 Mon

"I'm not sure why ME is leaking so much info on Angel this year. Maybe they are trying to get more viewers? (shrug)"

To distract people from trying for BtVS spoilers?

I don't know, it seems that on the one hand, there is this huge appetite on the part of fans for articles *about* the shows, but at the same time, this general squealiness about spoilers. (This is my stance: I kind of like knowing general road-map spoilers, but I don't want to know specifics.) So what the hell are the producers/writers/actors supposed to talk about in the damned articles? "Yes, I really do like this new hair gel--it's even nancier than before!" If I were in their shoes, I would rather quickly reach the point of just blurting the whole thing out and let the chips fall where they may. Unless they have finally taken my suggestion of last spring and constructed a fiendish cover story that is *completely* leading us astray. (Which would actually be my preferred mode of action.)

[> I thought I felt a draft -- ponygirl, 06:18:59 11/04/02 Mon

[> Thanks for allowing me to vent (and for the tea). -- tim, 06:50:40 11/04/02 Mon

What would Buffy think of Cordelia now? (spoilers abound mwahaha) -- Sometime Lurker, 19:55:28 11/03/02 Sun

Watching Angel tonight and seeing Cordy stake that vamp with relative ease it became apparent to me how far Cordy really has come, memory loss or no, she is leaps and bounds a better fighter than any scooby (minus Buffy of course).
I really wish (glances around for a vengence demon to appear) that crossovers happened a little more often between the two shows. I'd love to see Buffy's reaction to the sight of Cordy drop kicking a vampire across her home town.

Any thoughts on why very few of Buffy's cohorts know how to defend themselves? Is it a power issue with Buffy? Maybe she likes being the only one who can save everyone, Angel's a bit more of a realist, knowing he can't be there all the time.

Comments!! Please!!

[> Angel 4.5 spoilers in above post. Also. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:14:40 11/03/02 Sun

If Cordelia's still part demon, that may affect her demon fighting abilities.

Now, I wouldn't call Cordelia the most powerful (ex)Scooby. Either Willow or Tara could probably use magic to take her out. Also, Giles has showed some pretty impressive fighting skills (for prime examples see "Bad Girls" or "All The Way"). As for ex- Scoobies, Riley would probably stand a fair chance at the very least. Now, could the current Cordelia beat Xander or Dawn? Yeah. But that hardly makes a trend among the Scoobies.

[> [> Re: Angel 4.5 spoilers in above post. Also. . . -- JM, 20:19:43 11/03/02 Sun

Well, the Scoobs can fight some, but not AI level. Remember they still have day jobs. While LA crew does this full time.

[> [> [> Hey Lurker. Only MO.... -- Briar Rose, 00:55:42 11/04/02 Mon

Cordelia (before this point) was still different from the past Willow (pre-One Bad Ass Witch) or Xander or even Riley. In a way, I believe that Cordelia has been just as "empowered" in her way as Buffy is in her role as Slayer and more so within herself.

One thing that I never understand in philosophical discussions about either BtVS or AtS is this over riding revulsion that comes up from so many against "violence" as a way to rid yourself of major evil - human or otherwise. Protection is a viable stance for one-self. And every theology supports it; Native, Christian, Buddist, Taoist, Muslim and etc.

When you mention the actions taken by any of the characters on either show that have set off the most discussion, it always comes down to "killing is w r o n g." Actually - most of it is done in the sense of the greater good is served by one who has hurt many going down for the good of the many. That's called balance. Karma if you will. What ye reap, so shall ye sow.

There are sometimes when even the most gentle of us souls knows that action is needed to prevent greater harm to others. And it actually takes a great inner sense of INTEGRITY to know when to take that action versus ignoring the threat to "keep our hands clean."

[> [> [> [> Re: Hey Lurker. Only MO.... - - JM, 07:37:07 11/04/02 Mon

I think the distinction made on the shows is between killing out of anger and revenge and killing out of duty. Difference between execution and murder. Some people thing both are wrong, some don't, some think neither are wrong all of the time. But I think most of the audience is able to identify the intellectual distinction, though we may debate the moral one. I think ME is making a distinction between situations like Willow's killing of Warren and Giles killing of Ben, but without giving us the answers on the moral weight of the actions. Parallels to last night: Fred would have killed (or something like) out of anger, Gunn killed out of . . . ? Seems to be some mixture of loyalty, mercy, and a little high-handed chivalry. But not apparently with hate particularly. Lovin' the ambiguity.

[> [> [> [> [> Ambiguity. Exactly! Shades of gray. Everything is gray in a balanced universe. -- Briar Rose, 15:01:11 11/04/02 Mon

[> wouldn't give angel that much credit -- anom, 22:56:39 11/03/02 Sun

"Angel's a bit more of a realist, knowing he can't be there all the time."

If I remember right, Cordelia insisted he train her. I doubt he'd have suggested the idea on his own.

[> [> Agreeing -- Vickie, 13:08:09 11/04/02 Mon

Buffy and Angel have each trained only the people who have wanted training. Dawn insisted that Buffy train her until big sis gave in. Cordelia gave Angel the whole "menfolk can't always be here" speech and Angel agreed to train her.

Angel also trained Connor, but that was more finding out what the boy knew than teaching him new stuff--at least, so far.

There's a chat room? ;-) (Spoilers for Angel 4.5 - Supersymmetry) -- Cheryl, 20:21:14 11/03/02 Sun

Loved this episode! I'm liking Cordy more and more each week. And Fred going to Wes for help - yes! Lilah *stalking* Wes? And bringing him a present? I'm liking those two more and more each week, too.

But the best was Angel finding out there are chat rooms about him.

[> Re: There's a chat room? ;-) (Spoilers for Angel 4.5 - Supersymmetry) -- MaeveRigan, 21:13:02 11/03/02 Sun

Yes, I knew the "Angel chat room" bit would be burning up the boards. Surreal, yet amusing.

[> [> Don't you mean... (Spoilers for Angel 4.5 - Supersymmetry) -- Rob, 21:26:58 11/03/02 Sun

..."chatty" rooms? ;o)


[> [> [> Re: Don't you mean... (Spoilers for Angel 4.5, 2.19) -- tim, 09:42:52 11/04/02 Mon

It just occurred to me that this is (at least) the second time they've given Angel a moment to look, well, old. In "Belonging" in S2, he complained about how much the meal cost with a speech that might as well have started out "Back in my day...."

Are there other instances where our 200-year-old hero has shown his age?


[> [> [> [> Lorne Greene -- Masq, 11:34:30 11/04/02 Mon

"Bonanza? Does 15 years on the air not mean anything to anyone?"

Cordelia, Wes, and Gunn give blank stares.

"Boy, now I feel old."

(from Belonging as well, I believe)

Then there was him joking with Fred's dad about an old US senator (or was it a VP?) who was really a demon and the 1962 Bob Hope Desert Classic.

Angel in general lives in a pop-culture void

[> [> [> [> [> Er... continuing my thought -- Masq, 11:36:26 11/04/02 Mon

Angel lives in a pop culture void about most things going on today, but then he's busy doing the champion thing. I imagine in earlier decades, he had nothing better to do than sit around in residential hotels watching t.v. and drinking blood.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Er... continuing my thought -- yabyumpan, 14:27:56 11/04/02 Mon

It's interesting that Angel in the 50's/60's and 70's seemed to be doing okish.
We've seen him in 1952 lining at the hotel, ok, not really interacting but keeping himself fed/housed and clean etc. We've found out recently that he was in LV late fifties/early sixties, probably doing ok, Possibly hanging around with the Ratpack although that may have just been BS. We also have the referance to Bonanza, as Masq pointed out, I think that was 60's-70's and we also know he saw Omega Man and Solent Green, early 70's I think.
So Joss, what I want to know is, how did he get from doing ok, interacting with the world, if only through TV and films to becoming 'stink guy' in 96? Inquiring minds want to know :-)

[> Re: There's a chat room? ;-) (Spoilers for Angel 4.5 - Supersymmetry) -- skeeve, 08:31:00 11/04/02 Mon

Yes, it was started by LAPD.

Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5 Spoilers -- JM, 20:24:11 11/03/02 Sun

Just a retread of my response on TWoP, but I liked how it went.

Gods, Wes, Fred, and Gunn are really involved in a threesome of murder aren’t they. And only Fred knows their whole involvement. Wes provided the means, Fred the motivation, and Gunn actually carried it out. It’s also interesting what this says about the various relationships right now. Gunn and Lilah were poignant mirrors, both seeing their lovers enthralled by a world they aren’t equipped to enter. Wes is clearly still as in love with Fred as ever, and now Gunn and Lilah suspect that. Fred gets Wesley, on a level that’s she’s never been willing to admit before. And he’ll stoop to depths for her that we’ve haven’t definitively seen him stoop to before. (Though almost getting sucked into that portal was probably all the motivation a control freak like him needs to help poetically end the professor’s career.) But all the same Fred made it clear that she doesn’t really respect him, and is perfectly willing to make use of him.

Well, Gunn and Fred can’t ever go back to puppy love. It’ll be interesting to see how their relationship weathers this. There was a line that it was important to both of them that the other not only not cross, but be incapable of crossing. Now Fred has proven she’s willing to cross that line, and Gunn actually crossed it. It’s not terribly surprising though knowing what we do of Gunn. He killed the semblance of his sister. That takes toughness, and even more so to survive. I’m not that surprised that we’ve seen him so far be the only one of the gang to kill a non-threatening demon on purpose (TOGoM) and now a human not presenting a direct threat. How many degrees of different is what he did than what Willow did last season? Interesting stuff. Wouldn’t want to be them.

Also loved the continuity of Fred reverting to “Heartthrob” state. Her hold on sanity is not that firm. And even when it is, she can be more than a little scary.

PS If Gunn can fight vamps, he’s got enough moves to snap necks. People do it in RL. I imagine it’s a matter of getting the angle right, and he’s got the height.

[> Re: Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5 Spoilers -- Rob, 21:25:16 11/03/02 Sun

The way I read Gunn's snapping of the professor's neck is that he was trying to protect Fred, so that, instead of she having killed him, he did. He had tried to tell her over and over throughout the ep about the damage it would do to her as a person, and, in the end, when it seemed that he couldn't reason with her, he did the only thing he could do...kill the professor, so that Fred wouldn't have it on her conscience. Not that she isn't feeling pretty crappy, anyway, but the fact that she didn't do the final deed does make a small difference. Did anyone else see it that way?

Speaking of which, when Gunn did that, my jaw literally dropped, and stayed dropped all the way until the "Executive Producers" title card flashed.


[> [> Gunn's my hero (spoilers) -- Apophis, 21:29:33 11/03/02 Sun

He reads comics AND he kills professors! What's not to like?

[> [> [> Lemme add that I'm a Major Gunn Fan and this ep was wonderful! -- neaux, 04:16:24 11/04/02 Mon

[> [> [> Re: Gunn's my hero (spoilers) -- Masq, 09:33:55 11/04/02 Mon

"He reads comics AND he kills professors!"

This is definitely going in my "What does Joss have against...?" section. Not all professors are evil!

[> [> [> [> Could it be the "Alias Connection again?" -- neaux, 11:02:57 11/04/02 Mon

Maybe its just me.. but as soon as Gunn mentioned Daredevil and Electra.. I thought of Jennifer Garner as Electra in the new Daredevil movie..

which would be the second nod to her this year.. If you count Buffy episode 7.2's technowig girl.

[> Re: Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5 Spoilers -- ZachsMind, 21:28:53 11/03/02 Sun

I'd call the guy Gunn killed tonight a direct threat. We saw what he brought forth to slow down Angel. He obviously didn't care much about what he brought into the world or what he sent out. He was using powers to which he had no real grasp of their strength or danger, and he was using them for selfish means. He had been for years. Up until the point he set that demon on Angel, I was giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. Maybe after Fred and the others disappeared off his campus, he started looking into the reasons why, but there were no other suspects, and he seemed very capable of using such magicks. Gunn did the world a favor.

However, this was not a line Fred could cross. Gunn has already crossed that line. It's one of the things he and Angel have in common. Before joining Angel's little gang, Gunn was in a different kind of gang. He was no pushover on the streets. He's done his damage. He's claimed his share of lives. He knows what it's like to have those lives screaming back at you in your sleep.

When he said Fred couldn't do it because he would lose her, that's where that was coming from. He's gone through that pain of loss and knowing your hands are soaked in blood. He couldn't bare to see that fate fall on Fred's hands. Killing the guy was the most noble thing he could do for her. Of course, she'll probably take it the wrong way. Women usually do when guys try to be noble.

She doesn't want to be protected. She doesn't want to be the sweet, nice, helpless thing that the guys seem to be seeing her as now. She wants to be empowered. She wants to be self-sufficient. She wants to know that when push comes to shove, she can take a life when it matters. Gunn took that chance away from her, and she'll probably make him regret that.

There are however, worse fates. Like believing oneself to be a monster. Gunn did good in doing bad, but he'll probably pay for it later.

For me, this is the first time I actually liked Fred. Up until now she's been a mousy boring character. Going back to her past in the hell dimension took guts, but I think the writers are now finding what it really is that makes Fred tick.

There was a moment when she was talking to Wesley, where he was trying to tell her what was the right thing to do, and Fred said it: "It's not about right." And the words "It's about power" echoed in my head.

Fred's seeking empowerment. The themes being addressed in Buffy are echoing in Angel. Female empowerment. Let's hope come this spring when ME ties all these pieces together, the end result is one for the record books.

[> [> Gunn's my kinda man, that's for sure.*S* -- Briar Rose, 00:42:08 11/04/02 Mon

[> [> Re: Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5 Spoilers -- ponygirl, 08:24:24 11/04/02 Mon

Hmm, I was about to strap on my crankypants with your women usually take it the wrong way when guys try to be noble line. But then you pulled it out of the fire with the next paragraph. Yeah, women usually don't like it when their choices are taken away from them, even in the name of nobility. I agree with Gunn's killing of the professor, if only for reasons of mercy -- Gunn gave him a quick death as opposed to whatever nastiness Fred was sending him to-- but Fred has a point about the way Gunn and Angel viewed her. In some ways they see Fred like the professor saw his assistant: unremarkable, not enough of a threat to be taken seriously (and did anyone think for a while that the asst. might be the real baddie?). Both Angel and Gunn have been in the vengenance business long enough to know that feelings like Fred's can't be easily dismissed. Interesting that Wesley both gave her the means to carry out her revenge and trusted her enough to let her bear the consequences alone. We're in the dark end of the morality spectrum here, but I think we've seen a much more interesting side of Fred than Gunn is going to be able to bear.

[> Make This Endless Day, Endless Night -- Arethusa, 07:52:00 11/04/02 Mon

Fred and Gunn's relationship just took a turn that it might not be able to recover from. Since the two series began, we've seen that vengance harms everyone, no matter how justified. We've also been told endless times that killing humans is wrong, or at least a very serious matter with major repercussions. I don't know how AI could have neutralized the professor, but they could have found out a way.

It is just as harmful for Gunn to kill someone as it is for Fred to do so. He left his old gang partially because of their indiscriminate killing. He now must face the fact that he killed a man for Fred, and deal with the guilt over the murder. Plus, he might come to resent Fred for being the reason he committed the murder. And Fred will probably feel guilty for putting him in that position. Guilt and blame are relationship killers, and since no ME relationship lasts anyway, this could be very bad news for Fred and Gunn. And now Wesley is involved. ME just loves triangles, to spread the misery between even more people. What if Gunn killed to protect Fred because he wanted to be the one to help her, instead of Wesley? Will Wesley try to separate Fred from Gunn? Will Lilah target Fred out of jealousy?

Writing the physics article and confronting the professor were signs of empowerment. Getting the professor killed was not. Power is not just brute strength. A truely powerful Fred would have not been so scared of the professor that she wanted him dead. Look at Buffy and Willow in "Selfless." Brute strength didn't neutralize Anya-Willow's strategy did, although it came with unfortunate consequences for Halfrek.

[> [> Thank you! -- Masq, 09:46:29 11/04/02 Mon

I'm glad someone else doesn't see Gunn as just the big hero in this ep. I was very disturbed to see him kill a human being. We have no evidence he has killed humans before, only demons. Even his sister was a demon when he killed her.

Like ponygirl, I thought Gunn's choice to kill the professor was an act of mercy--the man was about to be sucked into a hell dimension, and Gunn killed him to prevent the torment he would endure there. Now, thre is a very debateable ethical question about whether the man deserved to endure the torment. It's quite legitimate to argue that he did.

But there is a seperate issue that Arethusa brings up, and that is the reprecussions on Gunn for killing a human. Will he be able to live with it? Will he resent Fred for putting him in that situation? Was there a way to close the portal and bring the professor to some other sort of justice?

Stuff to ponder.....

[> [> [> Gunn's actions (spoilers for Supersymmetry) -- Apophis, 10:53:07 11/04/02 Mon

I didn't see Gunn's killing of the professor as an act of mercy, at least not for the prof. I figured (and others did too; I'm not saying I'm a genius) that Gunn did what he did so that Fred wouldn't. He took her karma onto himself to preserve something in her, the part of a person that goes away once you cross a certain line (despite an earlier post, I didn't see the professor's murder as a good thing). It's interesting to me that what Gunn and Fred did was essentially the same thing that Willow did to Warren.
I agree with the resentment thing. These events are going to come up again in Gunn and Fred's relationship. I was surprised to discover in the chat room last night that several people didn't think this was Gunn's first human kill. I never saw him that way before, but maybe I'm just naive.

[> [> [> [> I agree with that interpretation. -- Rob, 14:28:57 11/04/02 Mon

[> [> Re: Make This Endless Day, Endless Night -- yabyumpan, 15:55:27 11/04/02 Mon

Arethusa wrote:

"Writing the physics article and confronting the professor were signs of empowerment. Getting the professor killed was not. Power is not just brute strength. A truely powerful Fred would have not been so scared of the professor that she wanted him dead."

Thank you for that. Going round the boards today there's been a lot of 'go Fred' etc. It seems that Fred has become a popular character because she had the 'cujons' to exact revenge. I've been thinking about this a lot today and looking at how what people think of as empowering for women has really changed over the years. In the early days of the Women's movement it was very much about equality in education and in the workplace and the right to choose what you do with your body and your fertility. In the 80's it became about power in the workplace, the right to wear short skirts and high heels and get drunk equally to men. (ok, I'm over simplifying, but I'm just casting my mind back to my impressions at the time). It seems now female empowerment is about being able to fight as well and be as violent as men. Looking at a lot of popular shows, they are very much along this theme...Alias, Dark Angel and Buffy and I'm sure there's others, I don't watch that much TV so maybe I'm getting the wrong impression. I would go so far as to say that BtVS played a large part in this phenomenem. While I don't think this is altogether a bad thing, women being able to defend themselves can only be good, I do find it a bit worrying. The emphasis seems to be on violent solutions as opposed to concilliatory ot intellectual ones and that feels like a step back to me. Violence as the answer is not the answer, most of the time. If it was, the world would be getting less violent and not more so. Maybe I'm just being over sensitive, living in one of the most violent places in the UK, along what is locally known as 'the murder mile' and having been around violence a lot, personally and professionally. When you see it up close it's rather less entertaining.

As for Gunn being a 'hero', I doubt that he sees himself like that and i don't think that ME will play it in that way. Killing always has consequences, as Faith found out, I think the fall out from this is going to be far-reaching for Gunn and Fred and probably their friends.

[> [> [> female empowerment -- lulabel, 17:56:28 11/04/02 Mon

It seems now female empowerment is about being able to fight as well and be as violent as men. Looking at a lot of popular shows, they are very much along this theme...Alias, Dark Angel and Buffy and I'm sure there's others

I know you were oversimplifying here to make your point.... I don't think that women being violent is the empowerment itself. The point I believe is that women can and should embrace whatever makes them tick - be it violent, dark, sexual, etc. This goes against the cultural expectations that girls are sugar and spice and everything useless (or whatever it was that First-Evil Warren said) It also goes against the tenets of earlier feminists thinking that women were inherently nurturing and collaborative, etc, which in many ways is just as constricting as the Victorian ideal of women as virtuous and pure.

[> [> Re: Make This Endless Day, Endless Night -- Rattletrap, 19:01:34 11/04/02 Mon

Arethusa wrote:
"Power is not just brute strength. A truely powerful Fred would have not been so scared of the professor that she wanted him dead."

'trap responds:
Your point that power is not just brute strength is well taken. That said, I think the second sentence is _way_ off the mark.

In a perfect world I can believe that Fred might be able to find some other way; I know almost no real human beings that can demonstrate anything that approaches that strength of character. While I recognize that Fred is fictional, this standard still seems to be impossibly high. More problematic is equating Fred's response with pure fear. Fear clearly played some part in it--after spending five years in her own personal holocaust this is a reasonable and probably healthy reaction. More than that is raw and unadulterated rage. I'm not necessarily defending the decision to kill the professor, but having never spent five years in hell it would be presumptuous of me to tell someone else how to react. The professor had to be stopped and had to be stopped quickly, I can think of no other viable alternative that would fix the problem. In short, power is not just brute strength, but brute strength can, at times, provide power.

Just my $.02--I'm interested to hear some other responses on this question


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