Poor Troll! The moral ambiguity of Olaf -- Charles Phipps,
I was most intrigued in my mind by Joss's decision to
Olaf the Troll as a very sympathetic character in the
flashbacks to Anya's
Olaf was definately a lout as things go to him enjoying his
his breeding, and his fighting of the Trolls which menaced
the village but he
seemed to honestly love Anya even if he did have a wandering
Certainly I didn't think Anya's vengeance on him that
his being exiled from the village and turned into a monster
that he killed on a
daily basis to protect the village was even remotely
nothing but centuries ahead of him of Trollish urges (look
at what happened with
Giles) you can't really blame him I think for what he turned
[> Re: Poor Troll! The moral ambiguity of Kubiak -
12:01:08 11/02/02 Sat
Yes, he was sympathetic. Made me remember
fondly the old Parker Lewis days.
Attn: Masq, or anyone who might want to answer a
question re: Angel, season
1 -- Rob, 21:46:31 11/01/02 Fri
I have a question about
demons vs. demon/human hybrids that I've been mulling over
and I thought you
might have the answer (or an answer) to.
In "Room W/ A Vu," the demon
going after Doyle sneers at Angel, "You're a vampire.How
come you're helping a
little demon half-breed?" implying that Angel, as a vamp, is
lowering himself by
helping out a demon half-breed.
And yet in "Hero," the Scourge leader
scoffs at Angel, when he pretends that he wants to join them
that "You're one to
talk, vampire. Yours is the lowest of all the half breeds--
watching all the eps in a marathon for the past two days, so
struck me as kind of odd, but perhaps it's just a little
flaw that most people
didn't notice b/c the first mention was a very quick line.
Or maybe there's
something more. Is it because the Scourge are so fanatic
they count vamps as
half-breeds, whereas other demon sects aren't so
discriminating? Of course, that
doesn't fully make sense. Doyle was born partly from demon
blood, which puts him
higher on the scale than a vamp, which is basically a demon
the former body of a human. And that's evidenced by the fact
that the Scourge
places vamps on the lowest scale.
I really don't want to sound too
nitpicky, because I really loved "Hero"...my favorite ep so
far, but I am
curious as to whether this discussion has come up here
before, and what answers
were reached. Since these are the little things that keep me
up at night
analyzing Joss' shows! Maybe, Masq, you can point me to an
analysis of yours or
page on your site with some answers. I read your page on
"Demons" in the
Metaphysics section, and your "Hero" analysis already.
Was the earlier
line in "Room W/ A Vu" a flub?
Also, I'm interested in demons in
general. You referenced Anya in your "Hero" notes, saying in
that all demons who walk the earth are tainted. Does this
mean that every demon
we've seen on BtVS and AtS are not 100% pure except for the
Scourge, and a few
other exceptions? Or most of them are not? I assume by
"demons that walk the
earth" she meant ones born and living there, and doesn't
transdimensional demons who are summoned by spells, etc.,
since they originated
Do my questions have any answers? lol
[> Re: Attn: Masq, or anyone who might want to answer
a question re:
Angel, season 1 -- Apophis, 23:04:38 11/01/02 Fri
assume Griff (I think that was his name) was questioning why
a vampire would
care about a demon (no matter what the ratio) since they
don't always get along.
Generally, when vampires and demons work together, the
vampires are the demons'
minions. Griff was wondering why any vampire would care
about what happened to
[> [> Re: Attn: Masq, or anyone who might want to
answer a question re:
Angel, season 1 -- Rob, 23:19:19 11/01/02 Fri
Okay, I feel
silly making such a big deal now. That does make sense. I
may have just been
misinterpreting Griff(?)'s sentence. Vamps are usually
inferior to demons, but
Angel would be considered superior to one like Doyle, who
usually only uses his
human form, probably seen as a weakness in the demon world.
This guy didn't know
Angel had a soul, so he probably just questions why a vamp
(evil) would be
helping a demon who seems to stress his humanity. And also,
like you said, just
the fact that a demon and a vamp were helping each other out
Thanks for the help. Continuity errors gives me belly
rumblings. Glad that one's all nice and patched up now, so I
can go to sleep now
[> [> [> Re: Attn: Masq, or anyone who might
want to answer a
question re: Angel, season 1 -- JM, 06:24:13 11/02/02
think there may be a distinction between how the term was
used in the two
instances. Doyle is half human -- which also implies souled
-- kinda like Gru.
Vampires aren't half human, but physically, at least in our
dimension, they are
tied to humanity and the human condition. For that bunch of
probably equals taint. I've always been confused by Anya's
insistance that true
demons largely don't exist in this dimension, they're all a
form of hybrid. But
perhaps the explanation is that they're not hybrids with
human parts (which
seems in all case to convey a soul along with) but other
mortal creatures. Don't
know for sure. Remember though that it's pretty much
flabotunim to ME, though.
They really only care about the emotional truth.
[> [> Agree with Apophis here -- Masq,
06:54:22 11/02/02 Sat
It was established in dialogue that demons and vampires
don't like each
other, I think the episode was "Where the Wild Things Are".
Buffy and Riley find
a demon and a vampire tag-team fighting and comment on it to
Giles, who tells
them, yes, it is odd, because demons and vampires normally
Also, from our perspective, the Scourge don't look any more
as demons than any other species does. Anya mentioned in
"pure" demons were bigger, and I think the idea was that the
Mayor was going to
turn into a pure demon. If that's the case, Olvikan (the
giant snake!) is the
best example we have of a "pure" demon.
I think what the scourge was
getting down on wasn't the physical make-up of demons, but
The Lister demon species in "Hero" were benevolent and
harmless, as is Doyle's
species. And vampires, while not harmless, pretty much reek
of humanity, and
carry many of the traits of their previous human lives.
That's what the
Scourge was trying to wipe out of demonkind.
[> [> [> PS -- Masq, 06:57:13 11/02/02
is one episode that always makes me *cry*!!
I really liked Doyle. I was
really bummed when he was gone.
Of course, so much has happened since
then, and there have been so many great new characters,
including all the
changes in Wesley, that I'm OK with the fact that he's
[> [> [> [> Me, too... -- Rob,
08:29:41 11/02/02 Sat
I tried to fight the tears, but they came...just like they
did for "I
Will Remember You." In "Hero," it was the look on Cordy's
face that got me. In
IWRY, it was that damn Christophe Beck's Buffy/Angel Love
Theme...As if I could
ever withstand that without crying! And then Buffy starts
Angel starts crying. And...you've seen it. ;o)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Me, too... -- Masq,
Well, I didn't cry in "IWRY", but in Hero, it's that
damned video tape of Doyle that gets ya right in the heart.
At the end, when
Angel and Cordelia are watching it, and you hear everything
Doyle said earlier
in a completely different light.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Me, too... --
"Am I done?"
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll add my own
*sob* - loved
Hero! -- Scroll, 20:32:00 11/02/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> I disliked Doyle -- CW,
But, I thought it was great that they gave him such a classy
[> [> [> [> [> I thought Doyle was great,
wish he could have
stuck around longer. -- Rob, 10:22:58 11/02/02
[> [> [> [> [> Doyle Rocked --
IMO he is the most realized of all the non-Angel male
characters on the show. You get the feeling that a part of
Angel and a Part of
Cordy died when he did. Like it forced them to grow up a
little. As much as I
like Gunn and Fred, I would trade Gunn or Lorne for Doyle
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Doyle Rocked
11:49:59 11/02/02 Sat
Easy on the abbreviations, there. You'll
force me to look them up. ;)
Doyle did really interest me, because he was
the first real demon hyrid we'd seen on the show, and
because he seemed to be a
link in the new and interesting world of demon society in
AtS. But I think
ultimately his demise was more interesting than his life,
Buffyworld.com put up the current list of all of the
rest of this year's
Buffy eps, and air dates -- Rob, 12:11:03 11/02/02
Subject to change of course:
Here are the names of all the rest
of the Buffy eps this year, according to Buffyworld.com.
Can't tell you about
the accuracy or lack thereof.
129) Conversations with Dead
131) Points of Origin
132) Points of Origin,
133) Training Montage
134) Sticks and Stones
135) Of Vamps
136) Pipe Dream
137) In the Land of the Blind
138) Don't Tread
140) Point and Counter Point
142) Duel of the Fates
143) Watch This
144) Shut Your
[> OUCH!!! (S7 broadcast schedule spoiler) --
If we really have to wait from 11/26 to 1/7 for the
second part of a two-parter, I predict much wailing and
gnashing of teeth on the
And that's BEFORE the demonic alter-egos kick in.
[> [> I'm not sure how accurate Buffyworld's airing
-- Rob, 12:30:41 11/02/02 Sat
Because it has the season ending at
the beginning of April, and that just won't happen, because
they'll want to
finish the season off in May sweeps. That's why I didn't put
them in my post,
even though I forgot to take that out of my subject
The two parter
name seems very intriguing. Perhaps finally we'll learn the
origins of the
Slayer? Hey, a guy can dream!
[> Very interesting titles! -- HonorH, 12:30:31
Especially "Training Montage." Seems to me to hearken back
to OMWF. Will
we get more music? And Giles singing? Please, pretty
[> [> Re: Very interesting titles! -- Rob,
I know! Some really cool names! Like I just posted in my
response, I'm keepin' my fingers crossed that "Points of
Origin" reveals the
origin story of the Slayer...how could would that be?!? Oh,
and later in the
season, the ep entitled "Glory." Yeeeee! I hope we get to
see some more of our
favorite hellgoddess in that one. And "Training Montage" may
be one of the
bestest ep names ever. I hope at least some of these are
[> [> [> Re: Very interesting titles!
(spoilers) -- KKC,
14:32:57 11/02/02 Sat
I find the title of the finale very
interesting. Aren't those Willow's words to the VOTW (victim
of the week) in
'Selfless' from two weeks ago, when she briefly reverts back
to her evil
persona? Maybe we see more of Dark Willow later on.
Of course, these
titles are empty speculation at worst, and unfinalized
working script titles at
best, which could be subject to change later on. Come get me
when there's an
episode titled 'Land Without Shrimp.' :)
-KKC, who thinks that would be
the episode with Jonathan's death scene. :)
[> [> [> [> Re: Very interesting titles!
Juliet, 19:05:17 11/02/02 Sat
Love the sig tagline. It adds a
nice touch. :-)
From my Earth Science knowledge, an earthquake has a
point of origin, doesn't it? And since there are many of
[> [> [> [> Re: Very interesting titles!
Cheryl, 19:49:23 11/02/02 Sat
"I find the title of the finale
very interesting. Aren't those Willow's words to the VOTW
(victim of the week)
in 'Selfless' from two weeks ago, when she briefly reverts
back to her evil
persona? Maybe we see more of Dark Willow later on."
You know, my first
thought when I saw that title was that it was referring to
the Hellmouth. Purely
speculation, of course, but can't you just hear Buffy
quipping that, as she
deals the final blow to the Hellmouth?
[> I dunno... -- ZachsMind, 12:59:23 11/02/02
wouldn't lay money down for any of them past "Points of
Origin." Nice titles,
but only time will tell.
[> [> The One Eyed Man Is King...(watch out for
goodness) -- tricky_d, 14:18:33 11/02/02 Sat
The old saying
goes "In The Land Of The Blind the one eyed man is
king." Who wants to
bet me that we will see a major character with an eye-patch
coming. Also fits
ironically with the next-to-the-last title Watch
about that Parthenogenesis. Websters online has it
par·the·no·gen·e·sis Pronunciation Key (pärth-n-jn-
A form of reproduction in which an unfertilized egg
a new individual, occurring commonly among insects and
and notice it comes before the Glory Ep.
Perhaps they are going to go back to their orignal idea of
having Xander be the
vessel for Glory. Some piece of her she left behind,
gestates in him, forcing
Buffy to have to Kill him like she Had to kill Anya? Making
Anya's little quip
about "which of your friends have you not tried to kill
lately", seem all the
I am giddy with anticipation.
[> [> [> Parthenogenesis is vaguely similar to
-- ZachsMind, 17:28:39 11/02/02 Sat
This reinforces the "female
empowerment" angle for the season. While not synonymous with
parthenogenesis is basically the scientific term for it.
This brings to mind the
possibility of either dealing with an insect or plant-like
species which is
sentient and reproduces in this manner (ick) or they're
gonna play with
metaphor. Or maybe they'll play with the Dawn/Buffy DNA
thing. Another version
of the definition of the word could be something like,
without the use of a male." Technically, when they took
Buffy's DNA to make the
green glowing thingy into a Dawn, that's precisely what they
did. Dawn's the
mystical equivalent of a test tube baby. Neither Buffy's
father or mother had
direct involvement in the making of Dawn. Technically she's
kinda like Buffy's
clone. A modernized "virgin birth."
Weeeelll, okay, Buffy's not a
virgin.. but that's just nitpicking. =)
[> [> [> [> Afterlife -- darrenK,
For what it's worth parthenogenesis was the term used
the episode Afterlife for when something is magically
created as a by-product of
some greater magical working.
Later, they also used the term in an Angel
episode; it was the David Fury episode with all the day-glo
[> [> [> [> [> That was
Thaumatogenesis -- Apophis,
20:22:07 11/02/02 Sat
[> [> [> My take on "Land of the blind" and
"Points of Origin"
(Spoilers?) -- Q, 22:23:24 11/02/02 Sat
Gloy once made a
comment about being the "original one eyed chicklet in the
kingdom of the blind"
or something like that. If the "land of the blind" title AND
the "Glory" title
are the real deal, I see some MAJOR Glory action at the end
of the season. I
have heard that season 5 was originally going to be the end,
but then they kept
going. If Joss originally had an ending in mind that
involved Glory, it is very
possible that he would bring it back for the true ending.
Origin could involve earthquakes, the Hellmouth, AND the
origin of the slayer,
but I say also be looking for the origin of THE KEY.
[> Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! MAJOR NON-SPOILERS FOR EP 137!!!
-- HonorH (with
psychic hat on), 14:28:02 11/02/02 Sat
Pre-pre-release blurb for
ep titled "In the Land of the Blind":
"In this daring Joss Whedon
written/directed episode, a mysterious force casts a spell
of blindness over the
entire city of Sunnydale. To illustrate this for the
audience, half the episode
will be a completely blank screen with only voices, sound
effects, and music
giving clues as to what's happening with the Slayer and her
friends. Do I smell
an Emmy for Mr. Whedon?"
[> [> LOLOLOL!!! -- Vickie, 14:31:46
[> [> HonorH, you always crack me up! LOL! --
[> [> BtVS: The Radio Show?!? ;o) LOL! -- Rob,
[> [> And best of all, this will be the very first
-- OnM, 14:44:50 11/02/02 Sat
... aired in
[> [> [> Cool! -- CW, 15:21:44 11/02/02
Instead of NBC's must see TV; UPN's no see HDTV!
[> [> Alternate title for "Land of the Blind" -
17:31:28 11/02/02 Sat
Once More With-- OUCH! Okay! Who stepped on
[> Where do they get these lists? -- Masquerade,
From what I understand of the ME writing process, at this
they might be breaking story for episode 12 or 13--i.e.,
planning what will
happen in the episode, not even writing it yet. So it goes
without saying that
stuff after that isn't written, much less given titles or
Also, at this point, they understand how the season will go
broad strokes, but they haven't painted in the details of
exactly HOW it will
happen. And things might change down the line--actors who
are on the show or who
are slated to be on might bail, season 8 might happen or
not, and that will
change season 7.
I think this list is pretty bogus, myself.
[> [> Hey! Stop raining on my parade! -- HonorH
17:18:06 11/02/02 Sat
I'm in the very serious process of coming
up with TV Guide blurbs for all of these, thank you very
much, and I shan't have
my fun spoiled by piddling facts.
[> [> [> My guess.. -- ZachsMind,
17:41:18 11/02/02 Sat
This list was purposefully "leaked" from ME to someone in
order to annoy
us spoiler-types. I'll hypothesize that "Him" and "Points of
Origin" may be
accurate. I have less faith in "Sleeper" and "Dead People."
The rest of them
would make great titles for episodes but I'm not buying into
"Glory"? That's just wishful thinking. I'll be happy to eat
my words if
I'm wrong, but I honestly don't see them bringing her back,
unless it's in the
way they brought her back in the first episode of this
season, as one of Spike's
I'm also starting to think a lot of the rumors flying around
this past week or so are just to keep us spoiler types on
our toes. Tara may not
be written out of possibly appearing, but if/when she does,
ME wants it to be a
surprise. So they're throwing us off the scent. I recall an
interview with SMG
once where she said in the off season every year she's been
thinking she didn't
wanna go back, then she DOES go back and while in the thick
of taping Buffy eps
she has the time of her life. So her waffling on a season
eight may just be an
attempt to juice up her contract, or more misinfo from the
ME guys. SMG could
just be playing fickle and they all have full intentions of
coming back next
It's hard to keep an engine like Buffy running when people
looking under their hood, y'know whut ah mean Vern? You
could say they're
playing games with us. There may not be a season eight, but
they're gonna keep
us guessing about that right up to the last ep.
[> [> [> [> Actually (title spoiler only)
17:49:54 11/02/02 Sat
"Conversations with Dead People" is the
real deal, according to TV Guide. It's set to air in two
[> [> [> [> Future spoilers above --
[> More major non-spoilers: TV Guide blurbs for the
rest of the season
-- HonorH (really getting into this psychic thing),
17:47:45 11/02/02 Sat
Since that first one was so much fun, why don't we try the
Buffy wakes up one morning to find she's been
transformed into a man. So, for that matter, has Sunnydale's
populace. Xander's appalled, Dawn's disgusted, Willow's
intrigued, and Anya's
129) Conversations with Dead People
Buffy finds Spike
a therapist while Willow and Anya take a census of
A nefarious demon casts a sleeping spell
over Sunnydale, but his plans are confounded when the Spirit
of Tara turns Buffy
into a somnambulist. Can she truly beat demons in her
Xander researches his family tree in order to get a better
handle on his issues. Meanwhile, Dawn seeks the truth about
132) Points of Origin, Part Two
Willow must seek out a
catatonic Xander's mind after he discovers that he's the
descendent of Liam's
133) Training Montage
Another musical episode! Buffy
takes a side job teaching aerobics, and the interaction of
cursed peppy music
with her Slayer psyche soon has everyone in town
134) Sticks and
Dawn gets into an screaming fight with a girl at school, and
Key nature, which has been coming to the fore, causes
everyone in Sunnydale to
suddenly and uncontrollably start insulting each other.
135) Of Vamps and
The Spirit of Tara shows up again, this time to take Buffy
"Christmas Carol"-esque tour of her disastrous love
136) Pipe Dream
Buffy, Buffy, everywhere! Spike's improving mental health
takes a turn
for the worst when he suddenly sees Buffy's face on every
girl he looks
137) In the Land of the Blind
A mysterious force strikes the
town of Sunnydale blind, including the Slayer. Half the
episode will be a blank
screen with only voices, sound effects, and music giving
hints as to what's
138) Don't Tread On Me
Sunnydale High develops a
personality and finds itself rather hurt that people walk
all over it all day.
Buffy sends for Spike's therapist to calm the piqued
All the Scoobies are beside
themselves as they each divide into two beings: one naughty,
140) Point and Counter Point
Sunnydale High's debate team,
which Dawn is a member of, is cursed with being unable to
agree with anyone
either at school or at home. Buffy doesn't notice.
Most Whiny One is back! This time, though, she doesn't have
a permanent body and
is forced to jump from one to another through the entire
episode. Xander goes
catatonic again when he awakens to find himself in a
strapless red dress and
142) Duel of the Fates
Andrew and Jonathan are back,
having turned themselves into real, live Jedi knights in the
meantime. Can they,
with the Slayer, defeat Glory and Xander's evil half (which
escaped in ep. 139)
before they destroy the world?
143) Watch This
Giles is back, and
he's bad. It's Buffy vs. Ripper in a duel to the death.
144) Shut Your
Glory, Evil Xander, Ripper, and Andrew the Sith face off
the Scoobies. Or at least they would if Ripper could get the
rest of them to
just shut the heck up.
Disclaimer: if the above bears any
resemblance to reality whatsoever, I shall die of shock.
Bury me with my shoes
on, will you?
[> [> Re: More major non-spoilers: TV Guide blurbs
for the rest of the
season -- Masq, 17:59:36 11/02/02 Sat
"Willow must seek out a
catatonic Xander's mind after he discovers that he's the
descendent of Liam's
I *can't* stop laughing!!
[> [> [> Re: More major non-spoilers: TV Guide
blurbs for the rest
of the season -- Juliet, 19:29:26 11/02/02 Sat
Willow does the same spell she did in Weight of The World
...Xander sitting on his mind-couch in the exact same
He looks up at her and whispers in a horrified tone:
[> [> [> ROFLMAO! -- Rob, 19:42:36
[> Very Very Skeptical -- darrenK, 20:33:27
Not to be a spoil-sport, or in this case, a spoiler-sport,
but I really
doubt all the titles passed Sleeper.
For one thing, why after years and
years of making two-part event episodes that pull people to
the show during
sweeps would they suddenly make a two-parter where the
second part, presumably
the resolution of some cliff-hanger, was not only after
sweeps, but in January?
Half of season 7's scripts shouldn't even be written yet.
dates for the last 11 episodes of past years range from
November to well into
the next year, why would they title the episodes before
Not to mention that even if they have titled them, only the
would know the titles for some of the last episodes since
wouldn't have started on them yet, meaning that the writers
have to be the source of the leak.
Personally, I think that we're
looking at a very fake set of spoilers.
[> Re: the next 4 episodes according to Psyche --
This list doesn't seem credible at all, esp. since
episode titles are rarely fixed so far in advance; and I
think that would be
especially true now, when the future of the show is so much
in doubt, and the
writers may have to make changes to accommodate contracts
that are up in the air
According to Psyche , the
next four episodes are:
129. Don't Look Down
[> [> Hmmm....While I don't know if I believe that
that list is
accurate... -- Rob, 23:52:13 11/02/02 Sat
...so far, every
place I've been to has said the next eps are, in order,
with Dead People," and "Sleeper."
While Buffyworld's list is, in most
likelihood, inaccurate, Psyche's list might be also.
Slouching towards a family framework in ATS/Cordy and
alcibiades, 19:58:47 11/02/02 Sat
Slouching towards Bethlehem
begins in an interesting way. Connor comes across a nuclear
family in trouble,
dad, mom, alienated son. He kind of wants to help and kind
of wants to relate to
them, but his presence, lone and threatening and alienated
just sets off their
alarm bells. To them, he seems one of the night time dangers
they are hoping to
avoid. Connor challenges the father about the inadequate
help he provides his
family, helps the mother, since it's women he relates to
best (so far) and can't
figure out how to relate to the boy his own age -- the first
boy his own age we
have seen him interact with. The boy interestingly is
portrayed as too cowardly
to help his own mother.
This encouter with a family strikes a nerve in
Connor, because the next we see him, he is breaking into a
window at the
Hyperion, and crawling into his father's empty hotel.
The imagery of
crawling through a window is striking -- the first moment
ever acknowledged any relationship to Angel as a father, was
when Angel stood up
and took bullets meant for him, and the two of them jumped
together through a
window. Furthermore, people framed in windows is a technique
used over and over
on Angel to point out who is family.
So, Connor sneaking back in the
window OTOneH, represents Connor's desire to sneak back into
his family. It
makes us reflect that Connor has never lived without family
either -- the
anonymity of his alienated life in this world he is not
comfortable in must be
overwhelming. As Holtz, who knew him best, told us, Connor's
desire to seek
Angel was a strong one, one that compelled him to cross
worlds through a tear in
the nature of reality -- a tear that should not have been
brings up what Connor's desire to seek out Angel is all
about. The last time we
saw Connor and Angel face off, the symbol used to depict the
way that Connor
viewed Angel was a dart-board -- a target to be shot at. And
impression of his reason for returning to the Hyperion is
strengthened by the
fact that once he is there, he creeps around everywhere --
he does not announce
himself. He is a hunter tracking prey, moving soundlessly
through the hotel,
dressed more or less in camouflage colors, tan shirt and
grey green pants, to
blend in. The only one who spots him, that he gives himself
away to, is
Next the focus changes down to the scene below stairs. Once
Angel figures out that Cordy has amnesia, he decides the way
to deal with it is
to lie -- we see Lorne outside the window doors, and Angel
pushes Gunn to keep
Lorne outside the family unit that Angel is going to present
to Cordelia. Angel
and Fred go into his office to discuss the matter, and Fred
points out to Angel
that his plan to lie so that Cordy does not reject him might
not be the way to
go. Like usual lately, Fred is not confident enough in
herself to uphold her
decision against a strong male figure in her life. Angel's
plan is the one that
goes into effect.
We are given two perspectives to view this scene.
OTOH, we are in the room with Angel and Fred and look at
Cordy, now framed off
by herself and completely alone wandering in little circles
around the room.
Fred and Angel are the functioning family here. Cordy is
switch to Cordy's perspective. We see that she has grasped
this essential fact
-- she is alone and she sees Angel and Fred paired off
together -- for her well
being, against her well being, she does not know. But she
sees them as the
essential group and herself as the outsider. She is all
prepared for the
situation to turn creepy and when Angel and Fred emerge from
the room, Fred
obviously uncomfortable about lying, does seem creepy.
Next we cut to
Cordy looking at her displaced possessions in a room at
Everything is packed away -- a symbol for Cordy's amnesia.
And when we cut to
her alone, the first thing she is doing is relating to
herself in a looking
glass -- there is a certain amount of humor in this -- Cordy
has always been
vain, it used to be her most salient feature. Plus, the last
time she used a
looking glass to help resolve a problem, she completely
message she was getting from it, as Masq pointed last year
and further down the
web page. Here, alone, Cordy speaks to her self image in an
overly bright voice.
Yet this time the mirror proves completely unrevealing and
unreassuring, so she
moves to other reflections of herself in photos -- in
highschool, her photo as a
cheerleader features only her, by herself, and she realizes
she was popular.
That feels correct, so she accepts it. Then Cordelia picks
up a group of photos
from her past -- and chillingly, every single picture
features Cordelia alone by
herself -- and her comment on each photo remarks only on the
looks of the girl
it portrays. Cordy still has her deeply superficial side.
or frozen moments feature "family Members" or empty
landscapes devoid of family.
Cordelia's photos or frozen moments feature only herself. It
reminded me pretty
chillingly of that scene in The Wishverse, where Cordy cuts
the cute reflection
of herself out of the photo that inclues Xander, Cordelia,
and other members of
the SG and then proceeds to burn Xander's head (as per
Spike's insistence in
Lover's Walk of the way you treat someone you really cared
Finally, Cordy reaches one photo which shows her the family
was reaching for at the end of last season -- herself and
Angel staring at baby
Connor, but it doesn't quite resonate internally the way the
fact that she was
popular in high school did. She has no incisive comment to
make about it.
Instead, the picture of herself in this nuclear family
enough to send her outside of her internal space looking for
an answer. But what
she learns in the short term only creep her out -- everyone
at AI is harboring
nasty secrets from her.
Angel and Cordelia do share a moment of near
intimacy over a photo of Connor, but the moment is destroyed
when Angel's secret
"identity" pops out unexpectedly to bite him in the ass,
And then on to the song fest, where Cordelia sings for
have pointed out already the ties between this episode and
the Oedipus show that
Buffy, Xander and Willow put on. This seems to hint at the
near Oedipal theme
that will develop later on. However, also important for the
fact that Cordelia
likes to consult herself in the mirror is the fact that the
quoted bit of the
song is about self-love -- something that still resonates
strongly even with the
In any case, Cordy's choice of song turns Lorne's
stomach. He's sees evil coming -- slouching towards
Bethlehem. If the choice of
song is a kind of clue, we are left wondering whether it
will be released as an
aftermath of the Cordy/Connor pairing or of someone's
[> Part II: Slouching towards a family framework in
Connor -- alcibiades, 20:05:20 11/02/02 Sat
And now Connor
comes back into the picture. He helps rescue Cordy from the
mouth demon and the
two of them take off for his home beyond the world of the
scene: it is made very clear that Angel hears the mouth
demon, but he does
nothing about it -- why not? -- that is not his normal
behavior -- is he so off
his mission? -- or has Cordelia's appearance w/out memory
and Lorne's revelation
rocked him too much to be functional?)
The next scene shows us Connor's
world. Cordy and he stand before a giant polar bear: Cordy
says how cool is
that, Connor replies, I love that one, I wish I killed
Okay -- as
Cordy points out this is strange -- but it also well
reflects some of the
ambiguity of Connor's feelings for Angel -- there is some
pull there he has not
escaped, a need that drove him across worlds, but he also
wants to kill
We also learn that Connor has made his den among animals --
animals that he relates to best on our world, not people,
not the emptiness of
the ocean, but dead animals. We remember when we first saw
him he was wearing
trophies taken from dead animals -- and here he has
surrounded himself with
animals. He makes his home among the animals because he
ways. He has no other model.
In his room, as Cordelia rests, Connor is
framed against his filthy window, emphasizing his aloneness
-- he has no family
either. He tells Cordelia he has nothing to lose and then
sits down framing
himself again in front of the window. His foray through the
window into the
realm of family at the Hyperion has rewarded him with
Cordelia, but just as she
is still alone, so is he.
Just after this, we are treated to Connor
copping a feel while Cordy sleeps and waking her up. Connor
seems to be moving
in on his father's territory as a way to please himself --
Cordelia is the one
person he has had a clean emotional connection with in this
world -- and to hurt
his father. After all, he was at the Hyperion in hunting
apparently he changed his shirt there as
well from tan to tan/grey with a
The interesting thing is, though, after his father tells him
to take care of Cordy, Connor sits and watches through the
night -- he doesn't
sleep with her on the bed again.
However given next week's preview, this
could have more to do with Connor's sense of imminent danger
and less to do with
his promise to his father.
One last point about Angel, it is interesting
to see how smoothly Angel lies to Wesley about not being
worried about the fact
that Cordy is with Connor. Good thing that Wesley sees
through Angel's bullshit
A final point about Connor -- last week we were reminded
Connor is trying to determine what he is --"don't know
seems most like is the product of a demonic inversion of the
holy family -- a
miracle implantation of living seed into dead flesh,
creation out of the
nothingness that is death. A miraculous birth in an alley
since his mother
cannot stay in a hotel. Son of an angel and a whore.
[> [> Re: Part II: Slouching towards a family
framework in ATS/Cordy
and Connor -- Masq, 20:40:40 11/02/02 Sat
"Weird scene: it is
made very clear that Angel hears the mouth demon, but he
does nothing about it
-- why not? -- that is not his normal behavior -- is he so
off his mission? --
or has Cordelia's appearance w/out memory and Lorne's
revelation rocked him too
much to be functional?"
Angel only appears to be disfunctional in this
scene. It's the bait-and-switch with Connor that does it.
Angel hears the
mouth-guy. We don't know what part of the hotel he's in, so
it's not clear how
long it will take him to reach Cordy down in the lobby.
We see someone
come to the rescue, but it's Connor. Obviously, Connor was a
lot closer. He and
Cordelia have a very short exchange and then leave. So by
the time Angel shows
up, they are gone.
[> [> [> The Conner/Angel Dynamic in 4.04 --
I think Angel, with only his bady-language and
intonation (great acting by DB), makes it very clear that
Connor's charge is to
"protect Cordy as though his life depended on it" because it
interesting to me that before this scene, the last face-to-
face interaction the
between the two was when Angel made it clear that the
deciding criterion in how
he would proceed with relation to Conner was Conner's
behavior toward Cordy.
Good behavior toward Cordy and you get to live, hurt Cordy
and you get a one way
stamped ticket to the nearest hell dimension. So in Connor's
grovel, not much is
needed for Connor to pick up on that vibe. If anything
happens to Cordy, Angel
will hunt him down and kill him, and Connor clearly accepts
question that we as viewers are left with is: what is
Connor's motivation with
Cordy? Does he really care? In this episode, he seemed to
have come a long way
from the patricidal Fred-taunting brat he was in Deep
Down. Has he
really? Or is it a show, to win Cordy's confidence? Or is it
a head-game with
the old man. I suspect the writers will have some fun
exploring all the
possibilities before exposing the truth.
And lastly, I am not going to be
quick (as some have been) to say that Conner was
intentionally copping a feel.
It is possible when two people are laying in the same bed,
and one is male and
the other female, for breasts to touched in an unsexual
[> [> [> [> Pain and the Conner/Angel
Dynamic -- alcibiades,
10:57:57 11/03/02 Sun
In this episode, he seemed to have come
a long way from the patricidal Fred-taunting brat he was in
Deep Down. Has he
really? Or is it a show, to win Cordy's confidence?
Or is it a head-game with
the old man. I suspect the writers will have some fun
exploring all the
possibilities before exposing the truth.
For one thing, Connor has
learned that even Holtz, his father figure, used him solely
as a pawn. He's had
time to assimilate that knowledge now. So being immediately
patricidal seems a
whole lot less important than it once was.
When Connor taunted Fred, it
seemed clear to me that the one thing that went into his
conditioning was lots
and lots of pain. Rather than thinking of him as a brat, I
felt sorry for him.
He may be starting to learn that this world is a lot grayer
than the one he came
I think he is playing a head game with his dad, but also
genuinely likes Cordy, so his actions with her are not
solely to get to his dad.
I don't think he would harm her in any case.
The Spirit guide's words to
Buffy in Intervention comes back to me as also relevant to
destruction, absolute, alone.
Connor is known as the destroyer. He is
also absolute, alone.
[> [> [> Re: Part II: Slouching towards a family
ATS/Cordy and Connor -- azazel, 10:11:59 11/03/02
know about the bait and switch.
Shouldn't Angel be able to track the guy
by his slurping noises?
[> ^^ Spoilers for Angel 4.4 above^^ --
[> Re: Slouching towards a family framework in
ATS/Cordy and Connor --
Masq, 20:35:38 11/02/02 Sat
I just love all the window/frame as
family metaphors you've presented in this post and others!
Especially this one
"So, Connor sneaking back in the window OTOneH, represents
Connor's desire to
sneak back into his family." Very poignant.
[> [> The framing device on ATS -- alcibiades,
"I just love all the window/frame as family metaphors
presented in this post and others! Especially this one "So,
Connor sneaking back
in the window OTOneH, represents Connor's desire to sneak
back into his family."
Ever since I noticed this
technique at the end of last season, I've been absolutely
amazed at how
consistently the directors of ATS use it as a symbolic motif
to explore the
family situation on Angel.
I should probably check at some point who
directed the shows where I have noticed it, to see if it is
used primarily by
only a few directors or whether its use is pretty standard
throughout the staff.
Anyone know, by the way, where a list of writers/directors
episodes can be found?
This device is not used nearly as much or at all
on Buffy as far as I have noticed.
The characters on ATS are all
deracinated and removed from their families, with the
exception of Connor, and
his situation is unique.
On BTVS, in comparison, the characters may be
alienated from their families (with the exception of
Buffy/Dawn), but they are
still around, at least for the core 3.
It is kind of funny, isn't it,
how almost everyone on both shows appears to be an only
child -- Gunn wasn't
originally, but his sister is now dead. Justine was a twin,
but her sister's
death also confirmed her in her ways. And Buffy/Dawn is
mystical. Lorne had
relatives, but they are in another dimension and they also
wanted to kill him.
Tara had siblings, but like with Lorne, they wanted to
makes me wonder was Joss an only child? Did he get an
step-addition to his family, kind of like a Dawn? How much
of the shows plots
are his personal therapy? (g).
[> [> [> Joss's therapy -- Juliet,
16:58:12 11/03/02 Sun
I always thought the whole Xander/Cordelia thing was his
[> Interesting point about Cordy -- azazel,
CC's high school personality is coming through loud and
That song she sings, for one. And she seems to remember
enough magic from
Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered to remember there was a
spell about turning
annoying people into rats.
I wonder. If Cordy only remembers herself
from H.S., have any of her recent changes stuck? It's true
she still fights a
lot better than she used to. But all she remembers of her
core personality is of
the days she was 16.
That reminds me of Giles to Willow. "We all are
what we are."
Has Cordy really changed if nothing else has stuck?
Soul as a mirror -- Sang, 22:36:40 11/02/02
speculated about what soul does in Buffyverse. This morning,
I just thought
about two things that vampires don't have. Reflection and
What if a soul acts like a mirror in their mind? Vamps don't
their amoral acts since there is nothing in their mind which
humanity. Spike used to remember his bloody crimes without
any remorse. But soul
put his (human) image in the crime scene, it makes him watch
what he really did
(as a human).
Watching the mirror without his own reflection, makes him
feel that nothing in the room matters with you, since he is
not there. If he can
see himself in the mirror, than all the world around will
change, since he is
there. Things around him does matter to him.
Then, why did he felt
remorse and regret about Buffy without soul? I think Buffy
was a mirror to
Spike, he could see him through her. The last few scenes of
Spike at SR showed
that for the first time, Spike did see his reflection in his
act to Buffy. And
he couldn't stand what he saw in him.
[> Very interesting point (and one for which, I think,
you might find
textual support)! -- d'Herblay, 15:29:02 11/03/02
[> A mirror is a symbol of the soul Spoiler 7 --
Which means Spike and Angel should reflect an image,
but in Buffyverse this only happens when they don't catch a
reflection off of
shiny wood or whateve, and edit it out.
You're right on regarding Buffy
reflecting Spike too. It's the Gothic, psycoanalytical
argument of Kenneth
Burke's (applying Jung) as applied to the Disney version of
"Beauty and the
Beast." It is amazing how much the two storylines have in
common. There is a
requirement of two romantic interests for Belle (Buffy) one
sincere and one
evil. In B&B we have Beast and
Gaston. In Buffy we have William/Spike.
The true "love" sets Belle free (lets go of love for love's
sake and frees the
beloved.) Beast allowed Belle to return to her father's home
when she saw in the
mirror that he was in trouble. I'm taking it for granted
(not always a good
thing) that it was William that released Buffy symbolically
when he handed Buffy
the fire thingy to fight the demon while "he cut the ropes
that bound love" when
he set the pre-cog girl free. She then tells William/Spike
(once the duck tape
was removed from her mouth) that "she will tell someday," or
whatever she did
say that we have not agreed upon.
According to Burke, there are three
steps to overcoming the Animal-Human Paradox of the Beast.
The first step is
Victimage (scapegoating and treating of humans as 'its') In
season 6 the,
everything Buffy calls Spike she is really feeling about
herself, and vice
versa. The Beast feels his condition is based upon a "cruel
trick of fate" based
upon one careless decision.
Move from Vistimage to Mortification:
Basically the Beast realizes his truly bad behavior and
gives in to hopelessness
of ever really loving and being loved. He releases of object
of love completely
and believes he will be a Beast forever.
Mortification to Transcendence:
Once Belle realizes that Beast is demanding nothing of her -
- realizes that she
is free -- she can approach Beast on her own without fear
and they both can be
transformed into two individual wholes.
The only problem: Once the Beast
is transformed to Human, everything changes around him. In
B&B all the
humans are human again, and the castle in bathed in
sunshine, etc. etc. So what
is the gloom and doom reality of Buffyverse that could
[> [> Re: Very interesting and insightful,
Thanks! -- Sang,
16:42:12 11/03/02 Sun
You are right, Buffy and Spike reflected
each other in S6. B&B.. very interesting. How about Jean
version? I couldn't remember its details, but it was one of
the darkest version
of B&B I ever saw.
[> [> [> I have a copy! -- Deb, 19:58:01
It does not translate as well. I also have a film about
Vampires in Hong
Kong. There they hop to get around and are blind. The only
way they can find you
is if you breath then they suck the breath out of you.
Mistakes in Buffy's scripting -- Charlemagne20,
Basically where you think Buffy went wrong in terms of
storytelling and what should have perhaps been done instead
all your problems and why you think Joss did such and
whether you think it came
off proper/was worth it
[> Re: Mistakes in Buffy's scripting -- Quentin
While I have no problem with critiquing the work of ME
(or any other artist for that matter), there are nonetheless
plot points on BtVS
that I was less than satisfied with. Usually these
situations on the show are
consistent with the characters on the show, so it is hard
for me to gripe too
much about them. But some things do stick out a bit for
seeking to have his soul restored. After having the villains
of season six all
be humans with souls (the Trio and Dark Willow), I thought
whether a vampire without a soul like Spike could ever
develop a moral sense
would be much more interesting. The fact that Spike had the
chip for so long and
was experiencing socialization by interacting with the
Scoobies made it a unique
enough situation IMHO that it would not destroy the "canon"
of the show. I
imagine that there are reasons why ME went this route but
they are not clear
enough to me at present.
2. The plot arc of season four. I liked the
Initiative and Adam had promise, but it was almost like
there was an episode
missing in that season. Adam's plan seemed a little bit half
baked and it was
over almost as soon as we were told what it was. I recently
read in the Noxon
interview that ME regretted some of this and admits that
they screwed up.
Perhaps the premature departure of the actress who played
Prof. Walsh had
something to do with this or maybe they had to scrap some
other plot idea. All
that I can say is that if not for "Restless" at the end,
season four would have
left a bad taste in my mouth.
3. Spuffy. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy
it and found much of it fascinating. The problem for me was
that it seemed so
inconsistent at times. The Wesley/Lilah arc on Ats seems
like it would have been
a better model for Spuffy. Again, I think that the payoff
for the whole Spuffy
thing may lay ahead, so it is too soon to tell on that.
4. No "little
bad" in season five. I think if they would have had a little
bad and allowed
Glory to be introduced a bit later, it may have made a
remarkable season even
better. Perhaps the Knights of Byzantium could have come
before Glory that
season. I guess ME wanted to avoid having the little bad
that season because
they already had to deal with Joyce's cancer and the
introduction of Dawn. It
still worked, but Glory's introduction could have had even
more impact if pushed
back a bit.
[> [> Re: Mistakes in Buffy's scripting --
I always thought of Ben as the "little" bad of s5 as
well as being the "surprise" bad. Remember, he was the one
to summon the queller
(sp?) demon that killed all the crazy people and that
threatened Joyce. Not to
mention the way he turned on Dawn at the end.
[> [> [> Re: Mistakes in Buffy's scripting -
- vh, 06:38:18
Dawn wasn't the "little bad" of s5? After all, Buffy
was suspicious of just what she was and why she was
[> This may sound like Political Correctness
but... -- ZachsMind,
18:48:15 11/03/02 Sun
I find the choice of words here
M.E. never went wrong in their storytelling. There are no
real right or wrong choices in storytelling. Such judgmental
statements are far
too subjective. You either like the tale that is told or you
don't. One could
explore alternate possibilities. One could contemplate "what
ifs" and see where
they might have gone had they chosen to do things
differently, but the tale that
has been told by Whedon & his gang is THE tale of Buffy.
characters. At best, we're wading in his grey matter.
choices is like urinating in his pool.
[> [> Re: This may sound like Political Correctness
but... -- Rob,
21:28:30 11/03/02 Sun
"Insulting his choices is like urinating in
LOL! I agree.
[> [> Right there with ya, Zach. -- HonorH,
The tale of Buffy is something that's ongoing. While we
prefer that she take different roads, we aren't the ones
writing her story.
Although I feel there are things that might've been better
done, I can't say
they were "mistakes" in the overall scheme, because the
overall story is one I'm
[> Confusing dialogue at least (Buffy S.6
spoilers) -- Silky,
07:21:12 11/04/02 Mon
I have noticed certain inconsistencies over
the years (vampires and the breath thing, for example) but I
really felt the
following dialouge was inconsistent.
From: As You Were, quotes from
RILEY: Suvolte demon. Rare, lethal ... nearly
extinct, but not nearly enough. .....
We've been tear-assing through every
jungle from Paraguay up, taking out nests. As soon as we put
one Suvolte down, a
dozen take its place. They're breeders, Buffy. One turns
into ten, ten becomes a
hundred. This gets out of hand and there's a war with
humans? Humans are gonna
BUFFY: So they're like really mean tribbles.
My question: So
which is it? Are they rare or not? If they are breeders how
can they be
RILEY: Sam and I have been tracking a Suvolte demon through
America. Killing machine. Nearly mature.
SAM: Yeah, three months old and
RILEY: These things start to kill the minute they're
And leave a real clear trail.
SAM: (shakes head) No. It came here
to the Hellmouth to, to spawn. (sighs) But we think it
already hatched its eggs
BUFFY: So, demon eggs. Any timetable on when they're gonna
RILEY: Hatching's not the problem.
SAM: We think they're gonna be
sold on the black market. There are some foreign military
powers that would love
to have their own Suvolte. You could never train it, but
drop it on an urban
RILEY: And it cleanses the area.
SAM: .... Money's
been exchanged. There's a dealer in town, calls himself the,
......Buffy to Spike at the end of the ep
BUFFY: And I'm not here to
bust your chops about your stupid scheme, either.
My comment: So Buffy
believes Spike's scheme was stupid - not the big deal that
Riley and Sam said?
Because of this line and what Buffy said to Riley when Riley
offered to kill
'the Doctor' I believed that Buffy did not believe that
Spike was the Doctor. In
fact, I still think it wasn't made clear what the viewer was
believe, or what Buffy believed. But maybe that's just me.
for the Buffy/Spike scenes, I really did not like this ep.
The Sam character was
so obnoxious, I was sure they were going to bring her back
as someone evil! Or
that she was the Doctor.
What is wildfeed? -- Pegleg Pete, 10:05:33
it visual or written? How do I get there? With Tuesday being
election day, the
local station that carries Buffy will be interrupting the
show every 5 minutes
with an election update. Most annoying.
[> Election day. Ooh. Didn't think about that... -
10:15:35 11/03/02 Sun
Well the UPN station we have here in Texas
often acts like it's mostly automated. I don't even think
they have a news
department, but it would tick me off if this Tuesday was the
day they decided to
Why couldn't ME make THIS week the rerun week? Ack!
[> [> Re: Election day. Ooh. Didn't think about
that... -- JBone,
16:18:07 11/03/02 Sun
I think we're in the same media market, and
the upn station airs updates from the cbs affiliate. More
than likely, it will
be a shrunken screen with results filling the bottom and
side. With any luck,
they won't have many results worth reporting until Buffy is
done. But they just
love to jump in with 1% of the precincts reporting.
[> Re: What is wildfeed? -- PurpleMarrow,
14:03:56 11/03/02 Sun
Wildfeeds are early transmissions that are sent out by the
their affiliate stations. The affiliates then broadcast to
the public at the
regularly scheduled time. They can also be seen by anyone
who has an analogue
dish system (the big, 8 to 10 foot dishes that can be moved
to pick up signals
from different satellites). They are different from the
systems that have become available over the last several
dishes are nice. You get to see early feeds of shows. You
can also watch
reporters fixing their hair and making faces before they
broadcast a remote
feed. On the negative sides, you have to brush them off
after a snowfall, and
you can only point them at one satellite at a time. I miss
having the analogue
system, but the digital systems are usually more
[> The Wildfeed will be on the Trollop Boards Monday
early. -- Rufus, 14:36:06 11/03/02 Sun
I compile the links or
full Wildfeeds for Angel Sunday morning, and for Buffy,
Monday morning. These
are complete summaries of the episodes and you will be fully
Trollop Yahoo Group
Also on the Conversebuffyverse Yahoo Group there are
spoiler speculation, reviews. If I put all the stuff I find
for there here there
people would really have something to complain about in
regards to how fast
posts are archived here. One thing to remember...don't spoil
people on this
board, that is why I started the other ones...to maintain
the purity of this
board.....and that's hard work..;)
[> [> Thank you for preserving our purity, that's
why we call you the
First Virtue -- Masq, 16:03:09 11/03/02 Sun
How's this for irony? -- Rob, 12:43:25 11/03/02
order to escape the difficulty of the philosophy paper I'm
writing for class...I
go to the Buffy Philosophy board!!!
[> We're a lot more fun : ) -- Masq, 12:58:13
Philosophy with a spoonful of sugar
or is that a spoonful of the
What's your paper on?
[> [> Re: We're a lot more fun : ) -- Rob,
Plato's "Gorgias"...the section where Socrates argues that
better to have a wrong done to you than to commit a wrong
onto someone else. I
have to summarize all of the arguments, and then give my
opinion about the
validity of the claims of Socrates and the guy he's arguing
[> [> [> Sounds like classical Greek Karma to
me.;) -- Deb,
14:33:44 11/03/02 Sun
[> [> [> The mental health theory of
morality -- tricky,
15:12:41 11/03/02 Sun
my philo profs characterized Plato's
arguments in Gorgias, Republic, Apology
and elsewhere as
the mental health theory of morality. This theory
occurs throughout the
early dialogues, and is therefore thought to have come from
unlike the Platonic epistemology wherein Socrates is simply
This gist of Socrates position is simply: when a person does
actions they think
is immoral, it produces in them a kind of disharmony and
sickness that is
unbearable. But when they do what they think is right--what
seems by their
reason--they are entirely harmonious and healthy, even while
injustices of others. They are peace with themselves and
they are mentally
healthy. This mental health, this inward harmony, is greatly
to be desired, and
is our best reason for choosing to live a moral life.
[> [> [> [> The mental health theory of
morality -- Fred the
obvious pseudonym, 17:26:22 11/03/02 Sun
So right thought and
action are good for the blood pressure?
And I thought that virtue was
only its own reward.
An Evil Request for d'Horrible, the tentacled one
(O/T) -- Sophomorica,
picking cat gut out of her teeth, 13:00:50 11/03/02
you to provide us demons with your rapier wit and analytic
skills by writing the
review this week.
[> Hey! Evil here, remember? -- d'Horrible,
Not just evil, but well-versed in the fine arts of torture.
I can think of no more exquisite torture than to leave you
with naught but the
caterwauling chicken-scratch of Honorificus
[> [> Caterwauling? I thought it to be more like
the mating calls of
Bonobo monkeys. -- Devilish, languishing over a
selection of virgins,
15:56:47 11/03/02 Sun
[> [> Oh, stuff it in your secondary orifice! -
- Honorificus (She
Who Blinds With Her Beauty), 17:12:40 11/03/02 Sun
you're at it, you might think twice about that second
helping of pig entrails.
Even your *tail* is getting chubby.
[> [> [> If by beauty you mean sharp pointy
thumb talons, then yeah
I'm blind -- ponygoyle bumping around in the night,
[> [> [> [> That was purely your own
fault. -- Honorificus
(The Tastefully-Manicured One), 15:08:45 11/04/02 Mon
between me and the TV when Giles is on it, and you'll keep
your eyes. What are
you complaining about, anyway? Any good demon always keeps a
couple of spares
around, and even if you don't have any on hand, you can
always steal a pair. Do
I really need to tell you this?
[> [> Evil and MIA as well -- Whipwoman,
Where the hellmouth have you been, boy? You think we don't
notice when you disappear on these little mystery jaunts?
it--you're not just evil, you're not just MIA, you're...
musical spike (no, not that
[> [> [> LOL -- Rahael, 11:34:08 11/04/02
[> [> Little Debbies are the true evil of the
universe -- Deb,
19:35:57 11/03/02 Sun
With a first name of Deborah and being
called Debbie as a child, it is torture to look at all my
where my mother taught it was cute to dress me up to look
just like Little
Debbie. I don't wear hats anymore, and the sight of black
patent leather shoes
gives me panic attacks.
I would tell you my last name, but then I'd
really be the joke of the board.
[> [> [> Hey, don't forget that Nobody doesn't
like Sara Lee! --
Sara who won't smile even if Hall and Oates demand it!,
Sanity has only been saved by really being Sara Jill.
[> [> [> [> My daughter's name is Sara
Eileen! -- Deb,
01:21:03 11/05/02 Tue
[> WHAT?!?!? -- Honorificus (The Svelte and Sexy
You would have d'Horrible, Scourge of the Zip Code
Where He Lives, Suggester of Naughty Things to Virgins, and
Sometime Advisor to
the Geek Trio, write the review rather than myself?
D'Horrible, who doesn't even
give a Fashion Review (and what's important, after
Fine! Be that
way! But next time you need someone to find your beloved
halberd, don't come
whining to me, sister!
[> [> Re: WHAT?!?!? -- Saguaro Stalker, demon
counselor to the
stars, 17:28:22 11/03/02 Sun
All right, no bickering with claws
sheathed around here! Now, Honorificus share your Little
Debbies and Little
Beulahs with d'Horrible! D'Horrible, you stop stealing
Honorificus' nail polish
to smear on your peanut butter and cherub sandwiches!
[> [> [> Board fight! -- Sophomorica,
positively giddy with
glee!!!, 17:45:29 11/03/02 Sun
Tell her to give me back my
[> [> [> [> For the last time, I *don't* have
-- Honorificus (Who Needs No Pointy Weapons), 18:00:00
I do, however, have a few suggestions as to where you can
stick it when
you find it. Just ask, and I'll be only too happy to tell
[> [> [> [> [> This is so sweet! (spoiler
Supersymmetry) -- Saguaro Stalker, 21:01:10 11/03/02
almost forgot 'halberd' is Sophomorica's cutesy nickname for
her sixth husband.
You know the one right before 'mace,' the dull one? And now
you two are
squabbling like Fred and Gunn over who get's to send him to
a hell dimension. It
just brings tears to my eyes.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: This is so sweet!
Supersymmetry) -- Sophomorica, 05:50:09 11/04/02
like teddy-bear choya...until you get too close. Now that
will really bring
tears to your eyes!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- CW
just fell over holding his sides), 06:03:53 11/04/02
[> [> ummmm...if you're so insulted... --
"...d'Horrible, Scourge of the Zip Code Where He Lives,
Suggester of Naughty Things to Virgins, and Sometime Advisor
to the Geek
...what's with all the compliments??
[> [> [> You consider those compliments? --
Mighty, the Magnificent), 21:15:07 11/03/02 Sun
dimension are *you* from? Now, if I'd called him, "Scourge
of Azteca, Defiler of
Virgins, and Advisor to Lucifer," that would have been
well as a hell-and-a-half of an exaggeration. As it was, I
told the truth,
which, in his case, is far less impressive. Like my good
friend Screwtape is
fond of saying, "If a lie won't do the trick, try the truth.
[> [> [> [> ah...damning with faint praise!
then i admire your
use of this time-honored[ificus] technique! -- demanom,
Sorry, sometimes those subtleties are beyond me. Yeah, I
"scourge of his zip code" ain't really saying much!
[> Sophie, do you think you could restrain your alter-
ego? -- HonorH
(with one severe headache), 10:38:59 11/04/02 Mon
Heaven help us
all if we get into the Duelling Super-Evil Reviews!
Honorificus is perfectly
unbearable to live with now; if d'Horrible's reviews get
more accolades than her
own, I cannot predict the consequences save to say that they
will not be pretty.
Give Sophomorica another lollipop and tell her to quit
coming up with bright
ideas, willya? I'm not anxious for another Super-Evil Blood
Feud in my
[> [> Re: Sophie, do you think you could restrain
-- Sophie, 11:00:46 11/04/02 Mon
My apologies about Sophomorica's
latest trouble-making, and I certainly share your concerns.
I have a terrible
cold and you know how hard it is to find a good demon-
[> [> [> Do I ever! -- HonorH, 14:09:49
I've been sick lately myself, and H isn't making it any
managed to get her to be quiet for a while by sitting her
down with a "Sandman"
comic book, a Tim Burton movie, and one very large cup of
hot chocolate (and
some new satiny pink bedroom slippers). I've also got an old
Methos muse left
over from my Highlander fangirl days, and he helps out when
it suits him. H
loves his stories of his Horseman days. I bribe him with
which keeps him happy. Best of luck, dear, and I hope you
get better soon.
[> [> [> [> Thank you! -- Sophie,
I think I'll try your idea of hot-chocolate - for both of
hope you get well soon, too.
Monsters (marginally OT) -- Humanitas, 15:04:26
I don't know if anyone else heard this, but ther was a story
about monsters and their cultural place last week, and it's
finally up on their
I think the connection to BtVS is kind of
obvious, but I'd love to hear what folks have to say on the
topic, since ya'll
routinely think of stuff that had never occurred to me. ;-
[> Haven't seen it yet, but... -- VampRiley,
I head this report a few weeks ago of this guy seeing this
creature as he was flying in alaska (in one of those small
planes) and it's
wingspan was as big as the plane itself. Another guy also
say it on another day.
It was flying right at him, I think, and when it turned
away, it was really big.
So, I just have one word running through my mind...it's a
[> [> Re: Monspiracy theory [cue Firefly
dialect] -- pr10n,
19:41:50 11/03/02 Sun
Any chance it was one of them fancy-pants
nanotechnological morphin' aeroplanes I heard tell about?
change wingspan and surface-to-air ratio and the like, and
swap colors like a
big flying chameleon. Pert near like a demon, 'cept less
[> [> [> Fancy-pants nanotechnological morphin'
VR, 19:00:10 11/04/02 Mon
As far as I know, it was organic in
origin, not mechanical.
[> [> [> [> Re: Fancy-pants nanotechnological
aeroplanes? -- pr10n, 21:04:14 11/04/02 Mon
I was just
spoutin' er, joking really, but check this
until you find the GIF of the flapping spacecraft. Ain't
[> I've heard it and one word comes to mind. --
lot of what he said could be applied. Damn you threads that
lead back to the "S"
[shakes fist at it]
[giggles in a very manly
There's also a lot, especially a lot of the same things that
be applied to the "S" word, can be applied to a lot of the
rest of Buffy and
Angel, especially last season of both shows.
VR, who must go to bed now
and slay the evil teacher tomorrow for giving lectures on
"He's the devil, I say!! The devil!!"
OT completely. -- Deb, 15:55:07 11/03/02 Sun
see the sun? We haven't had sunlight for three weeks now,
and I'm moving into
hibernation and am irritable. It feels like a Van Gogh
painting that was painted
after they medicated him. Some days you walk outside,
stretch your arm out in
front of you and you can't see your hand. I know there has
to be some people
here who do not live in mostly sunny climes. How do you deal
with this without
sleeping 20 hours a day? How do you overcome the dumps? I
Everything is a special shade of grey. I love snowstorms and
this IS hell.
[> Here comes the sun -- for a price -- Fred the
17:23:49 11/03/02 Sun
Some members of my family have benefited
from those light-boxes that are supposed to address Seasonal
Disorder (?) (SADD). They apparently send out the same
wavelengths of light that
the sun does and that are needed for producing various bits
of chemical the
human organism needs to be non-depressed.
Of course, they need a
prescription and some years ago sold for about $400 -- a LOT
of money for what
is basically a fluorescent light with a special bulb.
Dunno if this
helps. You have my sympathy, but I dunno if that helps
[> [> requested correct name of disorder --
Seasonal affective disorder (SAD).
[> We have your sun and we are not going to return him
ransom -- Wise...uh...Whipwoman, 17:42:44 11/03/02
sun has been spending that last three months in the Pacific
specifically hovering above Vancouver, BC. No one in this
area recognizes him,
so don't expect any help there.
We will return your sun on the
understanding that you will provide us with several million
gallons of drinkable
water that we have lost as a result of caring for your
Oh, just out
of interest, where the heck is your sun from,
[> [> Well, if you'll accept water from the
Missouri River -- Deb,
19:20:06 11/03/02 Sun
then we have a deal. Somehow I had a
feeling it was taken to the Northwest. Return the sun by
Wednesday or we'll take
your shoreline and replace your ocean with prairies. Oh, we
are in Kansas City,
which is in Missouri.
[> [> [> Or, we'll send the entire state of
Kansas and make you
drive across it over & over & over & over...
-- Deb, 19:24:41
[> [> [> [> Kansas -- Fred the obvious
I heard that when they filmed the Wizard of Oz back in
1937-38 they did the whole thing with color film.
Just the Kansas parts
came out black & white.
Just kidding. Baum actually wrote the "real
world" parts about North Dakota, only since he had family
there, he "laundered"
the information and made Dorothy's home Kansas.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Kansas -- Deb,
Driving across Kansas has turned many a good person into a
zombie. It's flat,I-70 is so straight and there is nothing
but tall grass all
around you. Each little town looks the same, and the only
thing to disrupt this
hypnotic state is the occassional tornado.
[> [> [> Re: talking about weather and doing
nothing about it --
pr10n, 19:36:40 11/03/02 Sun
Um, here in the Wasatch Range of the
Rockies we have a sun. It's ineffectual from a warmth
standpoint but very
bright. Any relation to this alleged B.C. sun?
Also we have crispy
leaves that we force our children to rake. And we had snow
flurries just two
Do we have all the weather? If so, what's it worth?
[> [> [> [> I'll exchange the drizzle for the
leaves to rake.
-- Deb, 19:49:20 11/03/02 Sun
Can you also spare one canyon?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'll exchange the
canyon for... um , the
Royals? -- pr10n, 19:54:18 11/03/02 Sun
I live at the the
mouth of a canyon that causes occasional howling winds. All
the neighbors have
arranged that their leaves pile at my house -- perhaps you
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah the Royals. I miss
the glory days.
-- Deb, 20:04:45 11/03/02 Sun
I'll still take the leaves. I'll
just find some zombies who just drove across Kansas and have
them rake, or I'll
just wait for a thunderstorm to come and blow them to
[> [> [> [> Ah, a fellow Utahn; I thought I
was the only one
here! -- vh, 07:19:30 11/04/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Re: [offers handshake]
probably just us two,
right? -- pr10n, 07:43:32 11/04/02 Mon
[> Severe clear: please have some, dear! -- vh,
You can have a few days of ours ... more than a few days, as
as I'm concerned! We get so many days of cloud-free sun
around here, they have a
term for it: "severe clear." It's enhanced by the altitude,
and, in the winter,
snow reflection. I come from a stormier locale and I really
welcome the rare
[> [> I saw the sun this morning. Then it went
away. -- Deb,
13:55:04 11/04/02 Mon
Grr! Argh! I frickin' hate surprise spoilers! --
tim, who's stolen
ponygirl's crankypants for awhile, 16:11:32 11/03/02
there I was, minding my own business, reading my Sunday
paper. I noticed an
article about Angel, and thought I'd look closer,
never suspecting what
was about to happen. As I started to read it, I found out
that the WHOLE DAMN
ARTICLE was one long spoiler, starting even with the
frickin' HEADLINE. I now
know all the major plot developments between now and
frickin' February. Frickin'
I wanted to look away, but it was like a train wreck. I
just couldn't avert my eyes. And I kept thinking it would
get better--that they
would talk about moral ambiguity or the lack of respect the
shows get or DB's
frickin' HAIR, anything except piling on spoiler after
spoiler. I had no idea ME
would be willing to give up that much information
the Columbus Dispatch is the deadest man in
feel better now.
[> There, there. -- HonorH (with a cup of hot
It happens to us all sooner or later. Killing
newswriters won't solve anything--well, actually, it might,
but that's beside
the point. Take a few deep breaths, drink a nice, soothing
cup of tea, and
forward a few chain letters to the writer of the article.
You'll feel worlds
[> Okay, this is probably really less than
tactful... -- Wisewoman,
17:37:59 11/03/02 Sun
...given your current state of distress,
but couldya rush on over to the Yahoo Spoiler Trollop board
and kinda type out a
list of all them horrible spoilers that attacked ya?
[> [> Yeah do that or give us the
link........please! -- Head
Trollop, Rufus, 19:12:48 11/03/02 Sun
[> [> [> offending article inside (MAJOR
SPOILERS FOR FUTURE ANGEL
EPS) -- tim, 20:33:15 11/03/02 Sun
It's Scripps-Howard wire
story, so I couldn't find it anywhere on-line that had
general public access.
Fortunately, as a student, I can abuse my lexis-nexis
priveleges with impunity.
It's probably nothing you spoiler-lovers didn't already
know, but for those of
us who are trying to (ahem) save ourselves to make it more
special, it was quite
the Sunday-evening trauma.
Ventura County Star
October 27, 2002 Sunday
SECTION: Life; Pg. K05
HEADLINE: Ups and downs on 'Angel'
Cordelia returns from
heaven; Angel to sink lower
BYLINE: Dave Mason; email@example.com
"Angel" star David Boreanaz loves being evil.
Boreanaz is so great as Angelus. He's wonderful as Angel,
but there's a glint in
his eye and a spring in his step
when he's Angelus," said Jeffrey Bell,
co-executive producer and the new showrunner of "Angel."
vampire with a soul, will become the wicked Angelus again
this winter when the
gang needs the help of a
Hannibal Lecter-like creature to catch the season's
Big Bad. But Fred (Amy Acker), Gunn (J. August Richards)
(Charisma Carpenter) are prepared when Angel's soul is
removed; they put Angelus
in a cage. Of course,
Angelus escapes, and it'll be up to the vampire slayer
Faith (Eliza Dushku) to capture him during February sweeps.
up to the new Angelus storyline will begin during November
sweeps, which begins
Thursday, Bell said in a
"Episode 7 (airing Nov. 17)
will introduce the character who will be the Big Bad for the
season," Bell said.
will be a cliffhanger, and we'll come back with episode 8
winter 2003). This guy is so bad and so tough that only
person can handle
him, and that leads us to Angelus during February sweeps.
villain) is not someone we've met before. He's not human;
he's the toughest
thing Angel has ever faced. He's
smart, he's strong, he's cruel," Bell said.
And will the much talked-about apocalypse, the one involving
happen this season on the "Buffy the Vampire
Slayer" spinoff? Bell won't say
for certain, but something big is going on this year.
"We have an
episode called 'Apocalypse Nowish,'" Bell said. (He added
it's not connected to
the new hellmouth stirrings
Bell declined to say too
much about the new villain or how Angel's soul will be
removed and later
"We'll have to find out," Bell said about the soul. "We
take any shortcuts."
Bell explained why now is the time for Angelus.
Angel hasn't been the creature since the second season of
lost his soul after one moment of true happiness during sex
with Buffy (Sarah
"We've tried to get Angel to the place where he can
make peace with what he's done. He's now doing the right
the right thing and not to atone for what he's done in the
past," Bell said.
As Angel approaches the point of contention, it's important
to take some
peace away from him. That's the philosophy of
mixing pain and joy in "Angel"
"Angel" has been moving forward at a quick pace during last
season and the new one. Lilah became the new head of
the evil law firm,
Wolfram & Hart, when she didn't just go over her boss'
head. She cut it off
-- at a board meeting.
"On our show, anyone can die at any moment. You
never know," Bell said. "It makes it fun."
Meanwhile, in tonight's
episode, Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) returns from her
boring duties in heaven,
but she won't
remember everything she did up there.
why Cordelia rose to heaven just as Angel was sent to the
bottom of the Pacific.
"We knew we had an
urequited love. Cordelia finds out she loves Angel. She
rushes to a place to see him, and we knew we had to get
as far away from
each other as possible."
Originally, plans had called for Angel to be
buried under a mall, but the ocean was better, Bell said.
and Cordelia) get together, or won't they? That will play
out for a
while in different stories."
The producers hadn't originally planned for
Angel to have a son, Connor, but it was a natural outcome of
brought back the vampire Darla (Julie Benz), Bell said. "It
if Darla was pregnant and showed up?' It really
grew from Angel, in a moment
of weakness after a horrible day, saw his old girlfriend,
and they're in bed,
and he didn't
care and they have sex."
Sending Connor (Vincent
Kartheiser) to a hell dimension allowed the baby to grow
into a young man, one
who left his
father, Angel, on the bottom of the ocean during the summer
he falsely believes Angel killed his adoptive father,
the vengeful Holtz.
Angel resurfaces and gives his son some tough love. He kicks
him out of
the Los Angeles hotel that serves as his home.
"He loves his son but can't
stand to be around him," Bell said.
"Angel" is continuing its tradition
of not presenting a Halloween-theme story this week, Bell
said. He explained
too much to do in the overall storyline.
executive producer and co-creator of "Angel," directed an
episode in which all
the characters, including
Angel and Cordelia, have amnesia. They revert to
their personas at age 17, which means the return of the
Cordelia from the early "Buffy" seasons.
[> [> [> [> Oh Thank you.....and further
evidence I have a dirty
mind or need reading glasses -- Rufus, 22:13:15
I saw the bit about Cordy coming home from her "boring
duties in heaven"
as "boning duties in heaven" making heaven a whole lot
different than we
[> Thanks for the warning [reads only the comics
today] -- LittleBit,
17:55:56 11/03/02 Sun
[> [> :-( Wishing we had funnies! -- Sophie,
The New York Times doesn't have funnies. Have to go buy the
I LOVE NY!!!!!!!!
exscuse me...I just stopped by
to pick up my demon.
[> By any chance, is the article in question online? -
NT -- ZachsMind,
18:23:47 11/03/02 Sun
[> Yeah I noticed that ME is leaking spoilers for Ats
this year --
shadowkat, 20:03:40 11/03/02 Sun
Warning? Avoid all newspaper
articles and writer interviews with ME or on ATs right now.
spoiling like crazy this year. I accidentally got spoiled
reading an interview
with JEffrey Bell. And just about every article I've seen on
Angel regardless of
the interviewee has spoilers. I stopped reading them
altogether after the
Jeffrey Bell article.
If you want these spoilers? Go to slayage.com - it
collects most of the articles. There's one that's an
interview with Jeffrey Bell
which pretty much reveals a major big time spoiler for
midseason. Don't access
it - it's in the first paragraph.
I'm not sure why ME is leaking so much
info on Angel this year. Maybe they are trying to get more
[> [> Re: Yeah I noticed that ME is leaking
spoilers for Ats this
year -- leslie,
"I'm not sure why ME is leaking so much info on Angel
this year. Maybe they are trying to get more viewers?
distract people from trying for BtVS spoilers?
I don't know, it seems
that on the one hand, there is this huge appetite on the
part of fans for
articles *about* the shows, but at the same time, this
general squealiness about
spoilers. (This is my stance: I kind of like knowing general
but I don't want to know specifics.) So what the hell are
producers/writers/actors supposed to talk about in the
damned articles? "Yes, I
really do like this new hair gel--it's even nancier than
before!" If I were in
their shoes, I would rather quickly reach the point of just
blurting the whole
thing out and let the chips fall where they may. Unless they
have finally taken
my suggestion of last spring and constructed a fiendish
cover story that is
*completely* leading us astray. (Which would actually be my
preferred mode of
[> I thought I felt a draft -- ponygirl,
06:18:59 11/04/02 Mon
[> Thanks for allowing me to vent (and for the
tea). -- tim,
06:50:40 11/04/02 Mon
What would Buffy think of Cordelia now? (spoilers
abound mwahaha) --
Sometime Lurker, 19:55:28 11/03/02 Sun
Watching Angel tonight and
seeing Cordy stake that vamp with relative ease it became
apparent to me how far
Cordy really has come, memory loss or no, she is leaps and
bounds a better
fighter than any scooby (minus Buffy of course).
I really wish (glances
around for a vengence demon to appear) that crossovers
happened a little more
often between the two shows. I'd love to see Buffy's
reaction to the sight of
Cordy drop kicking a vampire across her home town.
Any thoughts on why
very few of Buffy's cohorts know how to defend themselves?
Is it a power issue
with Buffy? Maybe she likes being the only one who can save
everyone, Angel's a
bit more of a realist, knowing he can't be there all the
[> Angel 4.5 spoilers in above post. Also. . . --
Finn Mac Cool,
20:14:40 11/03/02 Sun
If Cordelia's still part demon, that may
affect her demon fighting abilities.
Now, I wouldn't call Cordelia the
most powerful (ex)Scooby. Either Willow or Tara could
probably use magic to take
her out. Also, Giles has showed some pretty impressive
fighting skills (for
prime examples see "Bad Girls" or "All The Way"). As for ex-
would probably stand a fair chance at the very least. Now,
could the current
Cordelia beat Xander or Dawn? Yeah. But that hardly makes a
trend among the
[> [> Re: Angel 4.5 spoilers in above post. Also. .
. -- JM,
20:19:43 11/03/02 Sun
Well, the Scoobs can fight some, but not AI
level. Remember they still have day jobs. While LA crew does
this full time.
[> [> [> Hey Lurker. Only MO.... -- Briar
Cordelia (before this point) was still different from
the past Willow (pre-One Bad Ass Witch) or Xander or even
Riley. In a way, I
believe that Cordelia has been just as "empowered" in her
way as Buffy is in her
role as Slayer and more so within herself.
One thing that I never
understand in philosophical discussions about either BtVS or
AtS is this over
riding revulsion that comes up from so many against
"violence" as a way to rid
yourself of major evil - human or otherwise. Protection is a
viable stance for
one-self. And every theology supports it; Native, Christian,
Muslim and etc.
When you mention the actions taken by any of the
characters on either show that have set off the most
discussion, it always comes
down to "killing is w r o n g." Actually - most of it is
done in the sense of
the greater good is served by one who has hurt many going
down for the good of
the many. That's called balance. Karma if you will. What ye
reap, so shall ye
There are sometimes when even the most gentle of us souls
action is needed to prevent greater harm to others. And it
actually takes a
great inner sense of INTEGRITY to know when to take that
action versus ignoring
the threat to "keep our hands clean."
[> [> [> [> Re: Hey Lurker. Only MO.... -
- JM, 07:37:07
I think the distinction made on the shows is between
killing out of anger and revenge and killing out of duty.
execution and murder. Some people thing both are wrong, some
don't, some think
neither are wrong all of the time. But I think most of the
audience is able to
identify the intellectual distinction, though we may debate
the moral one. I
think ME is making a distinction between situations like
Willow's killing of
Warren and Giles killing of Ben, but without giving us the
answers on the moral
weight of the actions. Parallels to last night: Fred would
have killed (or
something like) out of anger, Gunn killed out of . . . ?
Seems to be some
mixture of loyalty, mercy, and a little high-handed
chivalry. But not apparently
with hate particularly. Lovin' the ambiguity.
[> [> [> [> [> Ambiguity. Exactly! Shades
of gray. Everything
is gray in a balanced universe. -- Briar Rose,
15:01:11 11/04/02 Mon
[> wouldn't give angel that much credit -- anom,
"Angel's a bit more of a realist, knowing he can't be there
If I remember right, Cordelia insisted he train her. I doubt
he'd have suggested the idea on his own.
[> [> Agreeing -- Vickie, 13:08:09 11/04/02
Buffy and Angel have each trained only the people who have
training. Dawn insisted that Buffy train her until big sis
gave in. Cordelia
gave Angel the whole "menfolk can't always be here" speech
and Angel agreed to
Angel also trained Connor, but that was more finding out
the boy knew than teaching him new stuff--at least, so
There's a chat room? ;-) (Spoilers for Angel 4.5 -
Cheryl, 20:21:14 11/03/02 Sun
Loved this episode! I'm liking
Cordy more and more each week. And Fred going to Wes for
help - yes! Lilah
*stalking* Wes? And bringing him a present? I'm liking those
two more and more
each week, too.
But the best was Angel finding out there are chat rooms
[> Re: There's a chat room? ;-) (Spoilers for Angel
Supersymmetry) -- MaeveRigan, 21:13:02 11/03/02
knew the "Angel chat room" bit would be burning up the
boards. Surreal, yet
[> [> Don't you mean... (Spoilers for Angel 4.5 -
Rob, 21:26:58 11/03/02 Sun
..."chatty" rooms? ;o)
[> [> [> Re: Don't you mean... (Spoilers for
Angel 4.5, 2.19) --
tim, 09:42:52 11/04/02 Mon
It just occurred to me that this is
(at least) the second time they've given Angel a moment to
look, well, old. In
"Belonging" in S2, he complained about how much the meal
cost with a speech that
might as well have started out "Back in my day...."
Are there other
instances where our 200-year-old hero has shown his age?
[> [> [> [> Lorne Greene -- Masq,
"Bonanza? Does 15 years on the air not mean anything to
Cordelia, Wes, and Gunn give blank stares.
"Boy, now I
(from Belonging as well, I believe)
Then there was him
joking with Fred's dad about an old US senator (or was it a
VP?) who was really
a demon and the 1962 Bob Hope Desert Classic.
Angel in general lives
in a pop-culture void
[> [> [> [> [> Er... continuing my
thought -- Masq,
11:36:26 11/04/02 Mon
Angel lives in a pop culture void about
most things going on today, but then he's busy doing the
champion thing. I
imagine in earlier decades, he had nothing better to do than
sit around in
residential hotels watching t.v. and drinking blood.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Er... continuing
my thought --
yabyumpan, 14:27:56 11/04/02 Mon
It's interesting that Angel in
the 50's/60's and 70's seemed to be doing okish.
We've seen him in 1952
lining at the hotel, ok, not really interacting but keeping
and clean etc. We've found out recently that he was in LV
sixties, probably doing ok, Possibly hanging around with the
that may have just been BS. We also have the referance to
Bonanza, as Masq
pointed out, I think that was 60's-70's and we also know he
saw Omega Man and
Solent Green, early 70's I think.
So Joss, what I want to know is, how did
he get from doing ok, interacting with the world, if only
through TV and films
to becoming 'stink guy' in 96? Inquiring minds want to know
[> Re: There's a chat room? ;-) (Spoilers for Angel
Supersymmetry) -- skeeve, 08:31:00 11/04/02 Mon
Yes, it was
started by LAPD.
Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5 Spoilers -- JM,
Just a retread of my response on TWoP, but I liked how it
Gods, Wes, Fred, and Gunn are really involved in a threesome
murder aren’t they. And only Fred knows their whole
involvement. Wes provided
the means, Fred the motivation, and Gunn actually carried it
out. It’s also
interesting what this says about the various relationships
right now. Gunn and
Lilah were poignant mirrors, both seeing their lovers
enthralled by a world they
aren’t equipped to enter. Wes is clearly still as in love
with Fred as ever, and
now Gunn and Lilah suspect that. Fred gets Wesley, on a
level that’s she’s never
been willing to admit before. And he’ll stoop to depths for
her that we’ve
haven’t definitively seen him stoop to before. (Though
almost getting sucked
into that portal was probably all the motivation a control
freak like him needs
to help poetically end the professor’s career.) But all the
same Fred made it
clear that she doesn’t really respect him, and is perfectly
willing to make use
Well, Gunn and Fred can’t ever go back to puppy love. It’ll
interesting to see how their relationship weathers this.
There was a line that
it was important to both of them that the other not only not
cross, but be
incapable of crossing. Now Fred has proven she’s willing to
cross that line, and
Gunn actually crossed it. It’s not terribly surprising
though knowing what we do
of Gunn. He killed the semblance of his sister. That takes
toughness, and even
more so to survive. I’m not that surprised that we’ve seen
him so far be the
only one of the gang to kill a non-threatening demon on
purpose (TOGoM) and now
a human not presenting a direct threat. How many degrees of
different is what he
did than what Willow did last season? Interesting stuff.
Wouldn’t want to be
Also loved the continuity of Fred reverting to “Heartthrob”
Her hold on sanity is not that firm. And even when it is,
she can be more than a
PS If Gunn can fight vamps, he’s got enough moves to snap
necks. People do it in RL. I imagine it’s a matter of
getting the angle right,
and he’s got the height.
[> Re: Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5 Spoilers --
The way I read Gunn's snapping of the professor's neck
is that he was trying to protect Fred, so that, instead of
she having killed
him, he did. He had tried to tell her over and over
throughout the ep about the
damage it would do to her as a person, and, in the end, when
it seemed that he
couldn't reason with her, he did the only thing he could
professor, so that Fred wouldn't have it on her conscience.
Not that she isn't
feeling pretty crappy, anyway, but the fact that she didn't
do the final deed
does make a small difference. Did anyone else see it that
of which, when Gunn did that, my jaw literally dropped, and
stayed dropped all
the way until the "Executive Producers" title card
[> [> Gunn's my hero (spoilers) -- Apophis,
He reads comics AND he kills professors! What's not to
[> [> [> Lemme add that I'm a Major Gunn Fan and
this ep was
wonderful! -- neaux, 04:16:24 11/04/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Gunn's my hero (spoilers) --
"He reads comics AND he kills professors!"
is definitely going in my "What does Joss have against...?"
section. Not all
professors are evil!
[> [> [> [> Could it be the "Alias Connection
neaux, 11:02:57 11/04/02 Mon
Maybe its just me.. but as soon as
Gunn mentioned Daredevil and Electra.. I thought of Jennifer
Garner as Electra
in the new Daredevil movie..
which would be the second nod to her this
year.. If you count Buffy episode 7.2's technowig girl.
[> Re: Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5 Spoilers --
21:28:53 11/03/02 Sun
I'd call the guy Gunn killed tonight a
direct threat. We saw what he brought forth to slow down
Angel. He obviously
didn't care much about what he brought into the world or
what he sent out. He
was using powers to which he had no real grasp of their
strength or danger, and
he was using them for selfish means. He had been for years.
Up until the point
he set that demon on Angel, I was giving the guy the benefit
of the doubt. Maybe
after Fred and the others disappeared off his campus, he
started looking into
the reasons why, but there were no other suspects, and he
seemed very capable of
using such magicks. Gunn did the world a favor.
However, this was not a
line Fred could cross. Gunn has already crossed that line.
It's one of the
things he and Angel have in common. Before joining Angel's
little gang, Gunn was
in a different kind of gang. He was no pushover on the
streets. He's done his
damage. He's claimed his share of lives. He knows what it's
like to have those
lives screaming back at you in your sleep.
When he said Fred couldn't do
it because he would lose her, that's where that was coming
from. He's gone
through that pain of loss and knowing your hands are soaked
in blood. He
couldn't bare to see that fate fall on Fred's hands. Killing
the guy was the
most noble thing he could do for her. Of course, she'll
probably take it the
wrong way. Women usually do when guys try to be noble.
She doesn't want
to be protected. She doesn't want to be the sweet, nice,
helpless thing that the
guys seem to be seeing her as now. She wants to be
empowered. She wants to be
self-sufficient. She wants to know that when push comes to
shove, she can take a
life when it matters. Gunn took that chance away from her,
and she'll probably
make him regret that.
There are however, worse fates. Like believing
oneself to be a monster. Gunn did good in doing bad, but
he'll probably pay for
For me, this is the first time I actually liked Fred. Up
now she's been a mousy boring character. Going back to her
past in the hell
dimension took guts, but I think the writers are now finding
what it really is
that makes Fred tick.
There was a moment when she was talking to Wesley,
where he was trying to tell her what was the right thing to
do, and Fred said
it: "It's not about right." And the words "It's about power"
echoed in my head.
Fred's seeking empowerment. The themes being addressed in
echoing in Angel. Female empowerment. Let's hope come this
spring when ME ties
all these pieces together, the end result is one for the
[> [> Gunn's my kinda man, that's for sure.*S*
-- Briar Rose,
00:42:08 11/04/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Tonight, tonight . . . AtS 4.5
Spoilers -- ponygirl,
08:24:24 11/04/02 Mon
Hmm, I was about to strap on my crankypants
with your women usually take it the wrong way when guys try
to be noble line.
But then you pulled it out of the fire with the next
paragraph. Yeah, women
usually don't like it when their choices are taken away from
them, even in the
name of nobility. I agree with Gunn's killing of the
professor, if only for
reasons of mercy -- Gunn gave him a quick death as opposed
to whatever nastiness
Fred was sending him to-- but Fred has a point about the way
Gunn and Angel
viewed her. In some ways they see Fred like the professor
saw his assistant:
unremarkable, not enough of a threat to be taken seriously
(and did anyone think
for a while that the asst. might be the real baddie?). Both
Angel and Gunn have
been in the vengenance business long enough to know that
feelings like Fred's
can't be easily dismissed. Interesting that Wesley both gave
her the means to
carry out her revenge and trusted her enough to let her bear
alone. We're in the dark end of the morality spectrum here,
but I think we've
seen a much more interesting side of Fred than Gunn is going
to be able to
[> Make This Endless Day, Endless Night --
Fred and Gunn's relationship just took a turn that it
might not be able to recover from. Since the two series
began, we've seen that
vengance harms everyone, no matter how justified. We've also
been told endless
times that killing humans is wrong, or at least a very
serious matter with major
repercussions. I don't know how AI could have neutralized
the professor, but
they could have found out a way.
It is just as harmful for Gunn to kill
someone as it is for Fred to do so. He left his old gang
partially because of
their indiscriminate killing. He now must face the fact that
he killed a man for
Fred, and deal with the guilt over the murder. Plus, he
might come to resent
Fred for being the reason he committed the murder. And Fred
will probably feel
guilty for putting him in that position. Guilt and blame are
killers, and since no ME relationship lasts anyway, this
could be very bad news
for Fred and Gunn. And now Wesley is involved. ME just loves
spread the misery between even more people. What if Gunn
killed to protect Fred
because he wanted to be the one to help her, instead of
Wesley? Will Wesley try
to separate Fred from Gunn? Will Lilah target Fred out of
Writing the physics article and confronting the professor
were signs of
empowerment. Getting the professor killed was not. Power is
not just brute
strength. A truely powerful Fred would have not been so
scared of the professor
that she wanted him dead. Look at Buffy and Willow in
"Selfless." Brute strength
didn't neutralize Anya-Willow's strategy did, although it
came with unfortunate
consequences for Halfrek.
[> [> Thank you! -- Masq, 09:46:29 11/04/02
glad someone else doesn't see Gunn as just the big hero in
this ep. I was very
disturbed to see him kill a human being. We have no evidence
he has killed
humans before, only demons. Even his sister was a demon when
Like ponygirl, I thought Gunn's choice to kill the professor
act of mercy--the man was about to be sucked into a hell
dimension, and Gunn
killed him to prevent the torment he would endure there.
Now, thre is a very
debateable ethical question about whether the man deserved
to endure the
torment. It's quite legitimate to argue that he did.
But there is a
seperate issue that Arethusa brings up, and that is the
reprecussions on Gunn
for killing a human. Will he be able to live with it? Will
he resent Fred for
putting him in that situation? Was there a way to close the
portal and bring the
professor to some other sort of justice?
Stuff to ponder.....
[> [> [> Gunn's actions (spoilers for
Supersymmetry) -- Apophis,
10:53:07 11/04/02 Mon
I didn't see Gunn's killing of the
professor as an act of mercy, at least not for the prof. I
figured (and others
did too; I'm not saying I'm a genius) that Gunn did what he
did so that Fred
wouldn't. He took her karma onto himself to preserve
something in her, the part
of a person that goes away once you cross a certain line
(despite an earlier
post, I didn't see the professor's murder as a good thing).
It's interesting to
me that what Gunn and Fred did was essentially the same
thing that Willow did to
I agree with the resentment thing. These events are going to
again in Gunn and Fred's relationship. I was surprised to
discover in the chat
room last night that several people didn't think this was
Gunn's first human
kill. I never saw him that way before, but maybe I'm just
[> [> [> [> I agree with that
interpretation. -- Rob,
14:28:57 11/04/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Make This Endless Day, Endless Night
15:55:27 11/04/02 Mon
"Writing the physics
article and confronting the professor were signs of
empowerment. Getting the
professor killed was not. Power is not just brute strength.
A truely powerful
Fred would have not been so scared of the professor that she
Thank you for that. Going round the boards today there's
lot of 'go Fred' etc. It seems that Fred has become a
popular character because
she had the 'cujons' to exact revenge. I've been thinking
about this a lot today
and looking at how what people think of as empowering for
women has really
changed over the years. In the early days of the Women's
movement it was very
much about equality in education and in the workplace and
the right to choose
what you do with your body and your fertility. In the 80's
it became about power
in the workplace, the right to wear short skirts and high
heels and get drunk
equally to men. (ok, I'm over simplifying, but I'm just
casting my mind back to
my impressions at the time). It seems now female empowerment
is about being able
to fight as well and be as violent as men. Looking at a lot
of popular shows,
they are very much along this theme...Alias, Dark Angel and
Buffy and I'm sure
there's others, I don't watch that much TV so maybe I'm
getting the wrong
impression. I would go so far as to say that BtVS played a
large part in this
phenomenem. While I don't think this is altogether a bad
thing, women being able
to defend themselves can only be good, I do find it a bit
worrying. The emphasis
seems to be on violent solutions as opposed to concilliatory
ones and that feels like a step back to me. Violence as the
answer is not the
answer, most of the time. If it was, the world would be
getting less violent and
not more so. Maybe I'm just being over sensitive, living in
one of the most
violent places in the UK, along what is locally known as
'the murder mile' and
having been around violence a lot, personally and
professionally. When you see
it up close it's rather less entertaining.
As for Gunn being a 'hero', I
doubt that he sees himself like that and i don't think that
ME will play it in
that way. Killing always has consequences, as Faith found
out, I think the fall
out from this is going to be far-reaching for Gunn and Fred
and probably their
[> [> [> female empowerment -- lulabel,
It seems now female empowerment is about being able to
as well and be as violent as men. Looking at a lot of
popular shows, they are
very much along this theme...Alias, Dark Angel and Buffy and
I'm sure there's
I know you were oversimplifying here to make your point....
don't think that women being violent is the empowerment
itself. The point I
believe is that women can and should embrace whatever makes
them tick - be it
violent, dark, sexual, etc. This goes against the cultural
girls are sugar and spice and everything useless (or
whatever it was that
First-Evil Warren said) It also goes against the tenets of
thinking that women were inherently nurturing and
collaborative, etc, which in
many ways is just as constricting as the Victorian ideal of
women as virtuous
[> [> Re: Make This Endless Day, Endless Night
19:01:34 11/04/02 Mon
"Power is not just brute
strength. A truely powerful Fred would have not been so
scared of the professor
that she wanted him dead."
Your point that power is
not just brute strength is well taken. That said, I think
the second sentence is
_way_ off the mark.
In a perfect world I can believe that Fred might be
able to find some other way; I know almost no real human
beings that can
demonstrate anything that approaches that strength of
character. While I
recognize that Fred is fictional, this standard still seems
to be impossibly
high. More problematic is equating Fred's response with pure
fear. Fear clearly
played some part in it--after spending five years in her own
this is a reasonable and probably healthy reaction. More
than that is raw and
unadulterated rage. I'm not necessarily defending the
decision to kill the
professor, but having never spent five years in hell it
would be presumptuous of
me to tell someone else how to react. The professor had to
be stopped and had to
be stopped quickly, I can think of no other viable
alternative that would fix
the problem. In short, power is not just brute strength, but
brute strength can,
at times, provide power.
Just my $.02--I'm interested to hear some other
responses on this question
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